From MAILER-DAEMON Mon Jan 25 02:42:49 1999 Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 02:42:49 -0500 (EST) From: Mail System Internal Data Subject: DON'T DELETE THIS MESSAGE -- FOLDER INTERNAL DATA X-IMAP: 0917249135 0000005938 Status: RO This text is part of the internal format of your mail folder, and is not a real message. It is created automatically by the mail system software. If deleted, important folder data will be lost, and it will be re-created with the data reset to initial values. From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 2 15:19:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA25089 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:19:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA04389 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:15:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA07644; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:15:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA00838 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:08:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from MAILSERV.CIWMB.CA.GOV ([156.41.30.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA00834 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:08:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ciwmb.ca.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:07:36 -0700 Message-ID: <23994649BBB4CF11A9670000000000016DD5AE@ciwmb.ca.gov> From: "Robb, Casey" To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: California Waste Board - Web Site Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:07:32 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1 Web site info, for anyone interested: The California Integrated Waste Management Board has a web site at http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov. The page on construction & demolition (C&D) recycling can be located by selecting "Waste Management Programs" and "Construction & Demolition Debris Recycling." You will find there 2 searchable databases: (1) ~500 C&D recyclers in California, searchable by material category and county, and (2) ~450 recycled construction product manufacturers whose products are available in California, searchable by product category, and county or state. The fact sheets are either viewable or downloadable, and include topics such as recycled aggregate, asphalt pavement, drywall, construction product testing and approval, wood waste, job site separation, carpets, Caltrans (State Dept. of Transp.) and recycled products, asphalt roofing shingles recycling, and recycled latex paint. We have other publications in progress, so you might want to visit the site from time to time, to see what's been added. Feel free to contact me if you have questions, suggestions, or additional information. (FYI - I will be out of the office from Sept 17 to Oct 20.) Thank you, Casey Robb, P.E. California Integrated Waste Management Board Sacramento, California (916) 255-2930 crobb@ciwmb.ca.gov ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 2 15:24:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA25153 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:24:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA05470 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA07766; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA01099 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:16:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from freenet.calgary.ab.ca (srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca [198.161.243.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA01094 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:16:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca(198.161.243.11) by srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca via smap (V1.3) id ZZ64440; Tue Sep 2 13:12:17 1997 Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:12:16 -0600 (MDT) From: Jorg Ostrowski To: Charles Barnard Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: paper mache/clay POND liner In-Reply-To: <199708261230.IAA06843@solstice.crest.org> Message-Id: Organization: Calgary Free-Net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2 Has anyone got experience or a reference to the use of either of the techniquess above, which were referred to in a book on ponds? If anyone is so kind to forward this to another more appropriate listerve (or can suggest one to me), I would be grateful. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm _______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 2 22:51:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA00118 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 22:51:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA14081 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 22:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA18166; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 22:45:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA13505 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 22:41:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA13500 for ; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 22:41:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA14772; Tue, 2 Sep 1997 19:41:39 -0700 Message-ID: <340CCDAB.371467C9@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 19:38:35 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: MAry Sayer CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: list nanny, back off X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3 I have to agree. I appreciate the moderators role and comments in this last episode. I regret my own comments. Its too easy to be reactive in this kind of forum and with this degree of anonymity. I know (or should occasionally be reminded) that the kinds of comments I made are the kind that should be made face to face, if at all. After a few months on this forum I realized that I valued it primarily as a technical resource, not just for the information but also for the encouragement that results from hearing from people engaged practically in green building activities. Its generally easy to tell from the focus or intent of questions that there are theoretical and political differences but the generosity and integrity of correspondence and responses has precluded such concerns and instead has, for me anyway, generated a sense of common purpose and respect. Thanks for the moderation and thanks for the forum. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. terrain@cow-net.com > > Please don't back from a facilitating role here. I don't think it is > a > matter of stiffling speech... just suggesting that it take place in > another > forum. Any discussion needs a good faciltator to stay focused. > Thankfully, > we have one here. Let's not throw it away... it's the difference > between an > interesting forum and a bar room (Bar rooms are interesting places > ... > good for observing human behavior; not that conducive to technical > discourse). > > Bruce Coldham > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > Please don't back from a facilitating role here. I don't think it is > a > matter of stiffling speech... just suggesting that it take place in > another > forum. Any discussion needs a good faciltator to stay focused. > Thankfully, > we have one here. Let's not throw it away... it's the difference > between an > interesting forum and a bar room (Bar rooms are interesting places > ... > good for observing human behavior; not that conducive to technical > discourse). > > Bruce Coldham > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 3 12:49:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09596 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:49:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09509 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:45:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA29966; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA27794 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:37:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA27790 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:37:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.246.4.11] (iplink005.crocker.com [205.246.4.5]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA14692 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:39:20 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:45:21 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: General Conditions Spec Language Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id MAA09596 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4 Kurt, Re: „I am seeking a concise paragraph or two for the Summary of Work section „that instructs contractors and bidders to comply with environmentally „responsible building practices. Write down you best effort (you seem to know what you want) and post it for review and comment. Don't let the stilted style of project specification corrupt you. Al that you learned about good clear writing should be aplied to these documents ... including wit .. so long as it doesn't obfuscate. You might require contract bidders to submit a "waste management plan" (or what ever you want to call it) for review and adoption at the preconstruction confernece, or at some paticular time at the begging of the project. You might also require an inventory of waste and where it went. So far as requiring "green" materials in the building. The architect has to do the homework and specify ... precisely. There's no short cut here. I presume that Brown is not constrained by the public bidding laws so you are in a better position to get what is specified. Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 3 16:27:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA12638 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA03328 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:23:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA06521; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:22:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA04913 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:12:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA04909 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:12:39 -0400 (EDT) From: SAMALEK@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA10432 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970903161028_1144894826@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Retaining wall waterproofing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5 Can anyone recommend a "green" waterproofing system for subterranean retaining walls ? Thanks, Safwat Malek Enviro International Architects / Builders samalek@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 3 16:27:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA12638 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA03328 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:23:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA06521; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:22:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA04913 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:12:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA04909 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:12:39 -0400 (EDT) From: SAMALEK@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA10432 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970903161028_1144894826@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Retaining wall waterproofing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 6 Can anyone recommend a "green" waterproofing system for subterranean retaining walls ? Thanks, Safwat Malek Enviro International Architects / Builders samalek@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 3 17:34:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA15061 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:34:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA19815 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:29:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA08306; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:29:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA06929 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:22:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA06921 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:22:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from epsform.cdsnet.net (med-1130.dip.cdsnet.net [206.107.17.130]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA07196 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:24:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709032124.OAA07196@mail.cdsnet.net> X-Sender: epsform@mail.cdsnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: DARRIN THORNTON Subject: Re: GBlist: Retaining wall waterproofing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 7 We have tried the "RUB_R_WALL" system and have been pleased. It has no petroleum product in it. No leaching of the product into the soils actually one can "EAT" the product it is so inert. Anyway, they are at 1-888-673-6055 BRAD or Duane. or locals can call 1-541-673-6055 fax at 541-673-5525. It is Asphalt free, too. Darrin At 04:14 PM 9/3/97 -0400, you wrote: >Can anyone recommend a "green" waterproofing system for subterranean >retaining walls ? > >Thanks, > >Safwat Malek >Enviro International Architects / Builders >samalek@aol.com >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > Thanks again, Darrin Thornton @ Polysteel Alternative Building Systems, Inc. 664 Hillandale Circle Eagle Point, Oregon 97524 Office 541-830-FORM (3676) Fax 541-830-3611 cell phone email text only 5419443626@mobile.att.net EMAIL: epsform@cdsnet.net www.cdsnet.net/Business/Polysteel That's about all the electronic leashes I want!! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 3 17:56:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA15245 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA25239 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA08714; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA07591 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:47:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA07586 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.91] (usr0a26.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.91]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA08232 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 17:49:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709032149.RAA08232@pike.sover.net> Subject: GBlist: New Director needed for Habitat's environmental programs Date: Wed, 3 Sep 97 17:51:04 -0400 x-sender: ebn@sover.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Nadav Malin To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 8 Hi folks, This seems like an opportunity for someone with the right know-how, commitment to really affect a lot of construction! Habitat for Humanity International is seeking a new director for their Construction and Environmental Resources Department, formerly the Department of Environment. The previous director didn't much background in environmental issues--it seems there is a wide open opportunity here to bring some new ideas and practices into play. But it means working with a very large and decentralized organization. Anyhow, if you're interested, contact the personnel office at HBHI in Americus, Georgia at 912/924-6935. Nadav EEEEE BBBB NN N ENVIRONMENTAL BUILDING NEWS RR 1, Box 161 E B B N N N The Newsletter Brattleboro, VT 05301 EEE BBBB N N N on Environmentally tel. 802/257-7300 E B B N NN Responsible Design fax 802/257-7304 EEEEE BBBB N N and Construction http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 3 19:15:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA17118 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:14:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA11455 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:10:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA10205; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:11:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA09977 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:06:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA09971 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA20896; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 16:06:28 -0700 Message-ID: <340DECBE.FF180538@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 16:03:26 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: SAMALEK@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Retaining wall waterproofing X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <970903161028_1144894826@emout14.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 9 For containing the waterproofing in the structure itself Zypek is a waterproofing agent that is non-toxic. Available either as an admixture for batch processing (requires a higher cement ratio) and adds approx. 20 per yard concrete cost. It is also available as an external or internal surface coating. Works by crystallization. Is used for potable water containment (dams, etc.) I used it for an interior wall (hillside) that was fronting a major drainage flow. The key for waterproofing is only partly the resistance of the wall - the major concern is dealing with groundwater flows and any potential for hydrostatic pressure and remember that any water flows will conduct heat from both soil and building. Problem areas in concrete work are effectively waterproofing either expansion joints or cold joints between pours or the expense of monolithic design and pours. Another option is using epdm as a complete subterranean wrap (can come in very large sheet dimensions or be glue jointed). There are a number of greener options for membrane materials. Hope this helps John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. SAMALEK@aol.com wrote: > > Can anyone recommend a "green" waterproofing system for subterranean > retaining walls ? > > Thanks, > > Safwat Malek > Enviro International Architects / Builders > samalek@aol.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 3 21:47:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA18739 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:47:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA13951 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA13043; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:43:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA14365 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:39:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from neptune.olympus (neptune.imagen.net [204.244.138.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA14361 for ; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 21:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709040138.VAA14361@solstice.crest.org> Received: from ss16.imagen.net by neptune.olympus with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id RWANYZ13; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 18:44:14 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Retaining wall waterproofing Date: Wed, 3 Sep 97 18:40:46 -0000 x-sender: elizwhite@mail.imagen.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Elizabeth White To: "John Salmen" cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 10 >Another option is using epdm as a complete subterranean wrap (can come >in very large sheet dimensions or be glue jointed). There are a number >of greener options for membrane materials. How "green" is EPDM? I've used it quite a bit and find it useful, but the offgassing is offensive and does not diminish with time, so I try to use alternatives. Am I wrong? -- Elizabeth White, Sustainable Housing Solutions 171 Vesuvius Bay Road, Salt Spring Island, BC V8K 1K3 (250) 537-2616, fax:(250) 537-2681, e-mail: elizwhite@saltspring.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 01:24:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA21495 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA00846 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:19:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA17701; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:20:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA19458 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:16:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA19453 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 01:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA24965; Wed, 3 Sep 1997 22:16:01 -0700 Message-ID: <340E435B.9AAC06F0@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 03 Sep 1997 22:13:00 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elizabeth White CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Retaining wall waterproofing X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199709040138.SAA22561@bossie.cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 11 Hi Elizabeth Zypec is 'green' in terms of product definition and current standards but it would be worth a further look (I was quite surprised when I started looking closely at floor finishes marketed as environmentally friendly and looked at background data sheets on the current mediums, defoaming agents and levelers used). Zypec, I think, is a form of sodium silicate (trad. called waterglass), and is the most acceptable form of concrete waterproofing (as an additive) and damproofing (as a surface coating) that I have found - to date, a lot better than tar. I mentioned epdm as an option (among which there are 'greener' versions) because it is (in most forms) a stabler product than a bituminous product. I have used it as a waterproofing roofing membrane under concrete and earth decks - as an alternative to bituminous (torch-on) products. There are low voc latex membranes, there are even pure rubber membrane products still available. I do not know the full chemical breakdown of the various epdm's on the market - it is not my first choice of product primarily because of the bonding agents used and secondarily because of the polymers used but there are not a lot of options. When I was looking at earth roofs and concrete roof decks - I was initially attracted to using a pure earth system (alternating sod layers) and for other applications a pure concrete deck, however it was one of those situations where I could not provide any guarantees of performance and could not put the client at excessive risk. Ericksons early flat roofs on Hornby leaked for quite some time (I'm told) and I think those were on a bituminous base. Poly might be an acceptable option as it is a non-chlorine product and could be heat sealed - but it would be a risk. Anyway I think I've conveyed the drift that it is a balancing act in which the solutions are to some degree always a little wrong and a little right. I would like to hear of some of the alternatives that your working with. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Elizabeth White wrote: > > >Another option is using epdm as a complete subterranean wrap (can > come > >in very large sheet dimensions or be glue jointed). There are a > number > >of greener options for membrane materials. > > How "green" is EPDM? I've used it quite a bit and find it useful, but > the > offgassing is offensive and does not diminish with time, so I try to > use > alternatives. Am I wrong? > > -- > Elizabeth White, Sustainable Housing Solutions > 171 Vesuvius Bay Road, Salt Spring Island, BC V8K 1K3 > (250) 537-2616, fax:(250) 537-2681, e-mail: elizwhite@saltspring.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 08:47:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA24990 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:47:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA05756 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:43:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA22068; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:44:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA24113 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:39:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA24109 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:39:57 -0400 (EDT) From: NMBlues@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA08842 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:41:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:41:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970904084149_-367158013@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: vinyl window frames & heat Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 12 Dear list, I have a client with a vintage 70's passive solar house that has NO overhang or other shade on the lower floor of the south side. They have the window quilt system which they swear by as the best thing since the wheel. The ORIGINAL problem: a storm and (i am guessing) many years of heat build up between the 6'X6' aluminum framed sliding glass doors (not thermally broken) and the window quilt has left 2-36 sf openings without working glazing seals. What I have read (briefly): March/April '96 EBN article on windows. I gather that if the owner is unwilling to pay for thremal breaks (i did explain that whatever the owner did to this house-even though they are moving-ultimately affects them through the world down the line---maybe the extra money will appear for the thermal breaks) the best energy-wise (from a end-user standpoint, not embodied energy) product may be the vinyl frame, as wood is even more expensive than thermal breaks in this type of opening, specifically. The NEW problem: Vinyl seems to start degrading (per same article) at high temperatures. The window quilt system certainly causes high temps. The QUESTIONs: Would the owner be serving the world better putting in aluminum frame windows and adding shade from exterior or putting in thermally broken windows? Can the owner put vinyl insulated frames in this location without new exterior shading to relieve the heat buildup behind the window quilt system? Can the owner reasonably install vinyl frames at all in this location (I am voting no based on the possibility of frame degradation coupled with the PVC content of the frame and the relatively [compared to wood and metal] new mass use [therefore little history of longterm viability] of vinyl windows)? The owner is being encouraged to install vinyl by a window installer for only $50 more each! Any help (point me to a resource that i can get on the net or at libraries or if you know similar situations, or people who do) I could receive would be appreciated. Sincerely, Dona Stankus, AIA Dona Stankus, Architect Raleigh, NC ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 10:20:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA26426 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:20:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA25328 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA23297; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:16:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA25997 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:13:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from iac6.navix.net (iac6.navix.net [207.91.5.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA25993 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 10:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.96.104.23 (xyp29p13.navix.net [204.96.104.23]) by iac6.navix.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17646; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:14:57 -0500 Message-ID: <340E6F67.1DCF@navix.net> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 09:20:57 +0100 From: Joyce Coppinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-Navix (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Stucco and Polymers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 13 What polymers are used or can be used in stucco products used for strawbale construction? Concern is for breathable wall which won't crack over time because of climatic conditions (freeze and thaw cycles, moisture, hot to cold climatic changes). What types of stucco products are available using "natural" ingredients which would have the same or similar properties as stucco or coatings with polymers? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 14:03:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA00214 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:03:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA17164 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA29435; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02499 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:53:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA02494 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:53:46 -0400 (EDT) From: woodeneagle@juno.com Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LLI27761; Thu, 04 Sep 1997 11:53:06 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 07:55:26 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #373 Message-ID: <19970904.075544.12310.1.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199708282058.QAA16843@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-21 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 14 Charlie: Charlie What happens to your individual property rights when your immediate neighbor does something that dramatically affects your property? For example: You have never had any flooding problems, because your neighbor has a wetland. One day, that wetland is filled. During the next cycle of heavy rains, your property is flooded, your house is substantially damaged. Does your neighbor still have the right to fill that wetland, that was on his private property? Do you get to sue your neighbor? Or should there be some regulation of how you use your property? What if your neighbor wants to run a pig farm or a dog kennel....do you have any rights to keep his smell, noise or runoff away from you? He is just doing what he wants to do with his own private property....and according to you...no one should infringe on his rights to do so. Should there be no regulation for the public good? What of all the privately owned wetlands that were filled on the Red River north of Grand Forks last spring....when heavy runoff came, there was no sponge to soak it up, and Grand Forks flooded.... Scott Waterman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 14:03:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA00214 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:03:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA17164 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA29435; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA02499 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:53:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA02494 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:53:46 -0400 (EDT) From: woodeneagle@juno.com Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LLI27761; Thu, 04 Sep 1997 11:53:06 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 07:55:26 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #373 Message-ID: <19970904.075544.12310.1.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199708282058.QAA16843@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-21 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 15 Charlie: Charlie What happens to your individual property rights when your immediate neighbor does something that dramatically affects your property? For example: You have never had any flooding problems, because your neighbor has a wetland. One day, that wetland is filled. During the next cycle of heavy rains, your property is flooded, your house is substantially damaged. Does your neighbor still have the right to fill that wetland, that was on his private property? Do you get to sue your neighbor? Or should there be some regulation of how you use your property? What if your neighbor wants to run a pig farm or a dog kennel....do you have any rights to keep his smell, noise or runoff away from you? He is just doing what he wants to do with his own private property....and according to you...no one should infringe on his rights to do so. Should there be no regulation for the public good? What of all the privately owned wetlands that were filled on the Red River north of Grand Forks last spring....when heavy runoff came, there was no sponge to soak it up, and Grand Forks flooded.... Scott Waterman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 14:39:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA00843 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26364 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:35:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA00528; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03541 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:31:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03533 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:31:41 -0400 (EDT) From: CeramiChas@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA15455; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 14:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970904143313_385436271@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: woodeneagle@juno.com cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #373 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 16 Dear Scott, You are among the minority that missed the whole point of the thread. Property rights aside....if you or anyone else, disturbs or distroys any part of a wetland, then federal law has been violated and can result in fine or jail. The point I was trying to make is, those on the list that were giving advice to someone having too many cat tails was WRONG in basic concept that one could do as they please on their land...using common sense. My other point being that common sense has been left out of the laws leaving US paying individually and collectively for this short fall in environmental law. You see those cat tails do not belong to them only the illusion of ownership. We the american people have taken claim to those resources. Just because someone has well intentions does not matter to the law, and ignorance is no excuse. What amounts to stepping on a bug in your back yard or pulling weeds around the pond your kids swim in could result in losing everything you own and have worked for is tatamount to govenment insanity. I am all for protecting the environment. And believe our common good must be protected. But I do not believe that every standing body of water in the whole country has to be ursurped by a draconian and insane law. And to make another point, where do we draw the line on a neighbor damaging another by developing their personal resources? Sun light, water, view? What to one is garbage to another is art. Just where would you join the fray over YOUR personal property rights and use. YOU do own property I assume. I would also in keeping with some on the list prefer you email me with your responses. Best, Charlie ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 15:45:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA01715 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA14100 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA02005; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:40:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05519 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:34:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from brickbat9.mindspring.com (brickbat9.mindspring.com [207.69.200.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA05515 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:34:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from newgreen2 (ip123.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.123]) by brickbat9.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA23657; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970904193523.006d7bb0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 15:35:23 -0400 To: NMBlues@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: vinyl window frames & heat Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 17 At 08:41 AM 9/4/97 -0400, NMBlues@aol.com wrote: >Dear list, > >I have a client with a vintage 70's passive solar house that has NO overhang >or other shade on the lower floor of the south side. They have the window >quilt system which they swear by as the best thing since the wheel. Try Accurate Dorwin (204/982-4640) for pultruded fiberglass farmes and highly selective coatings & lowe windows. Run Windows 4.1 (Lawrence Berkley Labs 510/486-5606) for glazing, thermal break, shading issues. or try http://www.eren.doe.gov/buildings/tools_directory/ Look at selective window films instead of Window Quilt. best, -------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 15:51:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA01779 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15716 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:47:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA03165; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:46:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05791 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:43:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from serv1.rof.net (serv1.rof.net [209.38.34.254]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA05781 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 15:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.38.34.210] (ptp193.rof.net [209.38.34.193]) by serv1.rof.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA22887 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:52:36 -0600 (MDT) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 13:52:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: lisamc@rof.net (Lisa McManigal) Subject: GBlist: Green shopping malls? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 18 Is anybody aware of any shopping malls (regional, community and/or strip) that have addressed green concerns? I'm looking for case studies where energy or water efficiency, lighting, materials, smart land use plans or waste management and other operational issues have been addressed, even on a superficial level. I'm working with Global Green USA, who has received a small grant from the US EPA to do some background research on current best practices in environmental management within the retail industry. Any leads would be greatly appreciated! Lisa McManigal Project Manager Retail Center Resource Efficiency Project Global Green USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 19:20:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA04127 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA09481 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:15:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA15400; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:13:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA11191 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:08:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from dns1.mcn.org (dns1.mcn.org [204.189.12.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA11187 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:08:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.189.13.43] (pm25-1-gua-a11.mcn.org [204.189.13.43]) by dns1.mcn.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA00570; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 16:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709042310.QAA00570@dns1.mcn.org> Subject: Re: GBlist: Green shopping malls? Date: Thu, 4 Sep 97 16:13:28 +0100 x-sender: comet@mail.mcn.org x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: To: "Lisa McManigal" , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id TAA04127 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 19 On Sept 4 Lisa McManigal asked about: >any shopping malls (regional, community and/or strip) >that have addressed green concerns? We suggest you look at Real Goods located in Northern California. They have built their ³shopping center² off the grid and have plans for lodging & a restaurant. They have a very impressive Internet presence at http://wwww.realgoods.com where you can learn more about their building process and environmentally conscious / sustainable issues. Dianne McKenzie & John Halley C O M E T S T U D I O S : a Consortium of Studios € Environmentally Conscious Architectural Planning and Design € € Digital Imaging & Rendering € Web Design & Development € Telephone: 707-785-2567 & 707-785-2107 E-Mail: comet@cometstudios.com Web Site: http://www.cometstudios.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 21:59:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA07791 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:59:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA12689 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:55:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA18622; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:56:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA15491 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:52:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA15486 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:52:39 -0400 (EDT) From: G40michael@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA28410 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:54:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 21:54:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970904215148_-534315843@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: ureathane foam Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 20 I am currently building a home in mid-Michigan. One of the local insulating contractors offers spray ureathane foam. This product is ported to be non- toxic and having a R-8.14/in. This seems wonderful, and I am considering its use. The only drawback I can figur' is that it will be impossible to run any addition wiring in these wall at a later time. I would be using the foam only on exterior(2x4) walls( Foundation to top plate) Does anybody have any experience with this product? It seems like a wonderful product. G. Michael Molnar ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 4 23:34:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA09716 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:34:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA07166 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA20382; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA17365 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:27:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from server1.mich.com (server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA17361 for ; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pm156-04.dialip.mich.net (pm156-04.dialip.mich.net [198.111.2.79]) by server1.mich.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA31511; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:26:52 -0400 Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 23:26:52 -0400 Message-Id: <199709050326.XAA31511@server1.mich.com> X-Sender: dwarren@mail.mich.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Dave Warren Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: wetlands Cc: Rabson/Newman Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 21 >.................You said: >>if you or anyone else, disturbs or distroys any part >>>of a wetland,then federal law has been violated > >It would have been more accurate to say that if anyone disturbs or destroys >any part of a wetland WITHOUT THE REQUIRED PERMITS, then federal law has been >violated (and possibly state and local laws as well). > >Projects that destroy wetlands are permitted every day, but only after >thorough review by a number of agencies, coordinated by the U.S. Army Corps >of Engineers................... > The information about wetlands permits is correct. But having read the statistics enough to know the ratio of approvals to applications is almost 1:1 in some regions, I'd suggest striking the word "thorough." Being Green requires more than just going through the motions. Dave Warren Rochester, MI ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 01:39:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA10917 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:39:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA00154 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:35:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA22191; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:36:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA19253 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:32:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA19249 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:32:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA15332; Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:32:30 -0700 Message-ID: <340F98BB.90466A7E@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 22:29:31 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: G40michael@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: ureathane foam X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <970904215148_-534315843@emout09.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 22 I'm not sure exactly the form of spray foam your are referring to, traditionally concerns with polyurethane foams have been with expanding or blowing agents and their contributions to ozone deplition. I think Icynene (sp.?) is a non cfc or hcfc foam but as far as I know they all contain isocyanates, among other things, for which their is some info. below. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. HAZARD SUMMARY BACKGROUND: Polyurethane foam is being used more and more as an insulation material in residential construction. Recent experience indicates that some contractors may not be providing workers who handle it with adequate respiratory protection or training in proper work and hygiene practices. Polyurethane foam is usually prepared on site in a closed system. The following materials are mixed in a 1:1 ratio: - base resin, comprising polyols, amines (often tertiary amines) to act as catalyst and plasticizers; and - isocyanate (both monomeric and polymeric), usually methylene bisphenyl isocyanate (MDI). Normally, two workers are involved in spraying the foam: a sprayer and a helper who cuts off excess foam and cleans it up. To clean the spray gun, the workers use an organic solvent such as glycol ether (ethylene glycol monoethyl ether). HEALTH HAZARDS: When sprayed, materials that contain isocyanates can cause primary irritation, sensitization and allergic reactions. The main organs affected are the respiratory system, the eyes and the skin. Long-term effects include chronic bronchitis and asthma. Exposure to the vapour of the tertiary amine, which is normally a component of the catalyst in producing the foam, may cause eye irritation. This may result in temporary blurred vision or the appearance of a blue haze or halo around lights. There is a safety hazard if a worker's vision is severely affected. Tertiary amines may also cause allergic asthmatic reactions. Repeated or prolonged skin contact with the organic solvents used in cleaning may result in skin irritation or rashes. Glycol ether may be absorbed in significant amounts through intact skin. LOCATIONS AND SECTORS Residential and commercial construction. APPLICABLE LEGISLATION The construction sector is exempt from the Isocyanates Regulation (RRO 842/90), but the requirements of the WHMIS Regulation (RRO 860/90) do not apply to construction. A draft regulation on isocyanates on construction projects is being developed. The Occupational Health and Safety Act states: "An employer shall take every precaution reasonable in the circumstances for the protection of the worker" (s. 25(2)(h)). PRECAUTIONARY MEASURES FOR SPRAYING POLYURETHANE FOAM - Both the sprayer and the helper must use the appropriate class of air-supplying respirator operated in pressure- demand or other positive-pressure mode while polyurethane is being sprayed. If compressed air is used for respirators, it must meet applicable CSA Standards. - The Construction Safety Association of Ontario recommends that a roped-off safety area should be established around the spraying operation for the protection of other workers. The boundary should be three metres (10 ft.) from the operation for outdoor spraying and eight metres (25 ft.) for indoor spraying. - Anyone working within three metres (10 ft.) of the operation must wear full protective clothing and respiratory protective equipment (see the ministry's Guide to Isocyanate Regulation, page 26). - Ensure that: - polyurethane components are properly labelled. - the proper Material Safety Data Sheets are available on site, and - workers have been trained as required by the WHMIS Regulation. - In particular, workers must be trained by a competent person in: - the hazards of exposure to isocyanates, organic solvents, and tertiary amines, - proper work and hygiene practices, and - proper use, maintenance and cleaning of respiratory protective equipment. - Work and hygiene practices should include the following: - Provide adequate ventilation to the outdoors from the work area. If mechanical ventilation is used, fans must be non-sparking. - Prohibit any potential source of ignition in the work area. - Clean and decontaminate equipment used in handling isocyanates promptly after using it. - Prohibit eating, drinking and smoking in the work area. - Avoid skin contact with isocyanates and organic solvents: for example, wear polyvinyl alcohol gloves for protection against isocyanates, or chlorinated polyethylene gloves for isocyanates and ethers. Chemical resistance may vary among different products made of the same material, so the resistance of protective clothing should be evaluated under conditions of use. - Wash hands and face before eating, drinking, smoking and going to the washroom and upon completion of work involving isocyanates. - Clean up and dispose of spilled components promptly. Each mobile spraying unit should carry a spill kit. This should contain decontaminants for the isocyanate components (these decontaminants form more stable compounds that can be disposed of safely) and absorbent materials for the polyol/amine catalyst mixture. G40michael@aol.com wrote: > > I am currently building a home in mid-Michigan. One of the local > insulating > contractors offers spray ureathane foam. This product is ported to be > non- > toxic and having a R-8.14/in. This seems wonderful, and I am > considering its > use. The only drawback I can figur' is that it will be impossible to > run any > addition wiring in these wall at a later time. I would be using the > foam > only on exterior(2x4) walls( Foundation to top plate) Does anybody > have any > experience with this product? It seems like a wonderful product. > G. Michael Molnar > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 08:51:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA13726 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA11601 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA26607; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:47:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA23870 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:43:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA23866 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:43:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.134] (pm1a4.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.134]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA09774; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:45:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <340F98BB.90466A7E@cow-net.com> References: <970904215148_-534315843@emout09.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: John Salmen From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: ureathane foam Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 23 >I'm not sure exactly the form of spray foam your are referring to, >traditionally concerns with polyurethane foams have been with expanding >or blowing agents and their contributions to ozone deplition. I think >Icynene (sp.?) is a non cfc or hcfc foam but as far as I know they all >contain isocyanates, among other things, for which their is some info. >below. > >John Salmen >TERRAIN E.D.S. > A few more comments on polyurethane: Most closed-cell polyurethane today (typically 2 pound per cubic foot) is blown with HCFC-141b. This is much better environmentally than the CFC-11 that was used until a few years ago. But HCFC-141b is the worst of the HCFCs from an ozone-depletion standpoint and is currently scheduled to be phased out by the year 2003. Only one manufacturer that I know of, Foam Tech in North Thetford, Vermont (802/333-4333), uses a totally non-ozone-depleting blowing agent (an HFC) for closed-cell polyurethane. They call this foam "Super Green" and it costs somewhat more than their standard product. Open-cell polyurethane foam for building applications is currently produced by two or three manufacturers, including the Canadian companies Icynene and Demilec. These have zero ozone-depletion effect, because they are blown using water (which produces carbon dioxide as the foaming gas). Because the CO2 leaks out of the open cells and it replaced with air, this type of insulation doesn't insulate as well as closed-cell polyurethane with a low-conductivity HCFC gas in the cells. The R-value of open-cell polyurethane is R-3.6 to R-4 per inch. With any polyurethane foam, however, pay careful attention to safety during installation (see the information John provided with his posting). Both Icynene and Demilec require installers to use full SUPPLIED-AIR breathing equipment during installation. Isocyanates are very toxic, as readers of this discussion group may recall in the thread on MDI resins used in "formaldehyde-free" particleboard (the chemistry is very similar). -Alex Wilson Editor and publisher Environmental Building News (complete back issues through April of this year are now available on our E Build Library CD-ROM--for information, check out our Web site: www.ebuild.com.) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 11:55:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA17033 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:55:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27162 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA29691; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA28724 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:46:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.2.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA28718; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:46:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [199.174.175.199] (dd43-199.dub.compuserve.com [199.174.175.199]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA20297; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:48:20 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:48:20 -0700 Message-Id: <199709051548.IAA20297@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: Stock Home Plans / Energy Efficient - Green To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org, AESP-net@aesp.org X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 24 Subject: Stock Home Plans / Energy Efficient - Green Bldgs. From: Bion Howard, Building Environmental Science & Tech To: EEBA list, Green Building List, Energy Services Professionals ------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks to all the people submitting leads or interest statements about home plans. So far there has been a fairly good response to our previous request for information on available home plans that have energy efficient or "green" building characteristics. We are analyzing the submissions for the listing now. We will gladly accept any further submissions of information on home plans through September 20, 1997. --------------- Contact Information------------------ Mr. Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, Maryland 20773 USA bdhoward@ix.netcom.com <--> http://www.nrg-builder.com Voice# 410-867-8000 fax# 301-889-0889 ------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 12:33:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA17398 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:33:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06018 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:29:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA00616; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:29:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA00059 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:25:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA00052 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 12:25:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA16016; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 09:35:03 -0700 Message-Id: <341032F2.31B7@arb.ca.gov> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 09:27:30 -0700 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Cc: "LEVIN, HAL" , Lisa McManigal Subject: GBlist: GBLIST: GREEN SHOPPING CENTERS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 25 LISA: The City of Davis, CA had a General Plan in the 70's and 80's that limited the size of shopping centers. The intent was to make the grocery stores & others services within easy walking or biking distance in this "City of Bikes." It seemed to work very well until the City Council changed, the city faced major budget short-falls, neighboring cities put in super shopping malls, and the only major source of revenue for Davis was new develoment and new shopping centers. Davis has a web site at: http://www.city.davis.ca.us/ It includes the new draft General Plan, which has had a lot of citizen input over the last few years but now appears to be ignored by the City Council. Also, the California Air Resources Board has funded research on transportation issues around shopping centers: http://www.arb.ca.gov (contact Research Division, Economics section). And the Institute of Transportation Studies, both at UC Davis and UC Berkeley, have probably looked at this issue...Hal Levin has worked on green bldg. design for Walmart, I believe (hleven@cruzio.com)...we get a lot of complaints about nail salons polluting their neighbors in strip malls, but I don't know of similar problems in the big malls. BTW, a green shopping center seems to be somewhat of an oxymoron, given the huge amount of auto & truck traffic that they generate. I think some locales are now requiring better bus/transit access; light-rail systems such as Portland's actually create a corridor of high-density development with easier access to shopping services. Good luck on your project, Tom -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 14:09:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18544 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA27974 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA02590; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:06:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA02758 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:01:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from smtp.gte.net (smtp.gte.net [207.115.153.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA02754 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:01:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (clw233133.gte.net [207.115.233.133]) by smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with SMTP id NAA20000; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 13:03:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <340F7290.251@gte.net> Date: Thu, 04 Sep 1997 22:46:40 -0400 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lisa McManigal CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green shopping malls? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 26 Lisa, While relatively insignificant compared to Real Goods, I'd take a look at the Mall of America in Minneapolis for waste management and the Walmart Ecomarts in Lawrence, KS, and a new one in CA for energy and water efficiency, materials selection, and lighting. Please share your findings with the list. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 15:50:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA20133 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA21875 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:46:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA04956; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:43:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA05995 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:39:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout20.mail.aol.com (emout20.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.46]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA05989 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:39:23 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout20.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA28167 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:41:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 15:41:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970905154007_1023289459@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: CeramiChas@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Kadulski comments on housing costs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 27 In a message dated 8/26/97 12:59:37 AM, you wrote: << Most people that buy a home have no idea what goes into it. They only know if they like what they see, just like buying a car.>> Hi folks, Been busy. Trying to catch up with stuff now. I have frequently been frustrated by this phenomena. Two things come to mind. The first is Albert Einstein using one soap to wash his clothes, face, dishes and hair because he couldn't choose between the many soaps at the market. Voting with your dollars only works well when the buyer has craft knowledge of the product. Einstein did not have craft knowledge of surfactant chemistry. The second thing is something I heard Dave Van Ronk say to a coffee house owner when the sound equipment kept fritzing - I work decades to become a professional so I can work for amateur club owners. Two facets of the same diamond, eh? - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 16:10:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA20457 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:10:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA26881 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA05556; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:05:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA06592 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:01:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout02.mail.aol.com (emout02.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.93]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA06583 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:01:44 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA00467 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:03:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970905160115_-633522309@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: CeramiChas@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: (Some) affordable house design strategies Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 28 In a message dated 8/28/97 8:42:07 AM, you wrote: <> Hi Charlie, I like the idea of using ceramics. I recall seeing some ceramic panels used in Japanese manufactured housing that were structural, finished on two sides and provided a combination of thermal insulation and mass that looked to me like it would be good in climates with primarily cooling loads. Know anything about them? Or similar products? Give me an update. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 19:09:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA25175 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:09:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA04536 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:04:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA03070; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:05:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA01516 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 18:58:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA01512 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 18:58:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (lnngdial77.voyager.net [207.74.103.77]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.5/CICNet) with SMTP id SAA10397 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 18:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <34105822.26C9@voyager.net> Date: Fri, 05 Sep 1997 19:06:10 +0000 From: Pat Ballentine Reply-To: Ballentine@voyager.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Planet Neighborhood Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 29 Greenbuilder Educators: Some of this list's members are organizations which conduct educational activities. Those members and others will want to check out "Planet Neighborhood" at http://www.weta.org/planet/materials.shtml This site describes a 3 part PBS series which asks for community partners and provides a chance for active participation. "Planet Neighborhood" is about the ways creative people across the nation have used innovative technologies to preserve the envrionment. Hosted by architect Wm. McDonough, dean at Univ. of Virginia, the show broadcasts on SEPTEMBER 8. Check local PBS stations for time. When you get into the information, you'll see there are FREE materials available, including videos, "The Home","The Car", and "Wetlands Technology". What a deal! Pat Ballentine ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 19:10:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA25185 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:10:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA04717 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA03133; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA01635 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:03:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from dns.img.net (dns.img.net [207.34.144.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA01629 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 19:03:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709052303.TAA01629@solstice.crest.org> Received: from sympatico.bc.sympatico.ca ([207.34.144.106]) by dns.img.net (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA219 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:10:45 -0700 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "pvisser" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 16:09:35 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: concrete waterproofing Reply-to: pvisser@img.net In-reply-to: <199709040600.CAA20049@solstice.crest.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 30 > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > > > Subject: GBlist: Retaining wall waterproofing > > Can anyone recommend a "green" waterproofing system for subterranean > retaining walls ? > >In canada there is a product called "XYPEX" that uses a crystalline sealer that forms inside the concrete. They have been around a long time, surely you can find their name in some expensive spec guide. > prayan visser, Turnaround Supply ph. 250-490-7351 refining simple home comforts to work with nature. fax and home ph. 250-497-5146, ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 5 20:11:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA26295 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:11:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA15700 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA04140; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:07:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA03088 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:03:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA03082 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from epsform.cdsnet.net (d01a8138.dip.cdsnet.net [208.26.129.56]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA00449 for ; Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709060005.RAA00449@mail.cdsnet.net> X-Sender: epsform@mail.cdsnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: DARRIN THORNTON Subject: GBlist: waterproofer Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 31 Xypex Chemical Corporation 13731 Mayfield Place Richmond, B.C., Canada V6V 2G9 1-604-273-5265 FAX 1-604-270-0451 Thanks again, Darrin Thornton @ Polysteel Alternative Building Systems, Inc. 664 Hillandale Circle Eagle Point, Oregon 97524 Office 541-830-FORM (3676) Fax 541-830-3611 cell phone email text only 5419443626@mobile.att.net EMAIL: epsform@cdsnet.net www.cdsnet.net/Business/Polysteel That's about all the electronic leashes I want!! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 6 02:17:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA01027 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA19246 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:12:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA08447; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:13:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA08503 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:10:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from november.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA08470 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:09:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.67] (p67.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.67]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA04059 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 06:18:04 GMT Message-Id: <199709060618.GAA04059@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Stucco Date: Sat, 6 Sep 97 00:14:03 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 32 On 9/5/97 12:00 AM Joyce Coppinger wrote: >What polymers are used or can be used in stucco products used for >strawbale construction? Concern is for breathable wall which won't >crack over time because of climatic conditions (freeze and thaw cycles, >moisture, hot to cold climatic changes). What types of stucco products >are available using "natural" ingredients which would have the same or >similar properties as stucco or coatings with polymers? I've spent a bit of time researching stucco, and I still know amazingly little about this important material. I would like to hear other's replies. First some terms, all of which apply to the Southwest only, and are totally casual and unofficial. "Stucco" tends to mean whatever is applied to the exterior, and "plaster" means its on the interior. Whats called "traditional" stucco is cementitious; its usually applied in 3 coats ("scratch", "brown", and "color"). Of course, this isn't traditional at all; that would be mud. The word is used to differentiate from the acrylics, such as Dry-Vit, etc, which are essentially heavy duty paints. I have no idea what you might mean by a "polymer", unless it was mistaken for acrylic, or is one of the roof coating products more common in commercial and industrial construction. So there are three general residential classes of stucco: 1. mud; 2. cement; 3. synthetic (acrylic). These are often mixed together. For example, it is rare for someone today to use a pure mud; it is usually "stabilized" with a percentage of cement. Thus, there is a huge range of possibilities, plus all the additives to the above (cactus juice, horse hair, sheep blood, etc). A fun treatment is to use a cementitious stucco, but utilizing sand from your site for the mix; thus you get a truly harmonious color scheme. In practice however, I think the choices narrow to something much more manageable. Straw bale requires 3 coats, due to the gaps to fill, which mandates either a mud/cement or cement base. Then the color coat can be either acrylic or cementitous. Frankly, I think this is simply personal choice; they both work fine. Which brings us back to your question regarding "a breathable wall which won't crack over time". I find this "breathable" question somewhat annoying, in part because I don't know enough myself, in part because I think its a false alarm, and in part because I suspect it doesn't matter. 1. If its cementitious or mud, it will crack, and often not over very much time. Guaranteed. If a stucco doesn't crack, then its not a "natural" product. Sorry about that. The mud stucco's were usually refinished on a regular basis. The hairline cracks in the cementitous products are considered to be a cosmetic issue only. The acrylics stretch and cover the hairline cracks in the underlying basecoats. 2. Personally, I wonder how much the two differ in breathability anyway. Imagine being inside a sealed room with no openings, with one encased in 3/4" of concrete, and the other encased in the same with an 1/8" of paint on top. I think you would suffocate in either one. Maybe not though; I would love to hear the air transmission ratings for these different stucco products from a more technically proficient list subscriber. 3. At any rate, "breathability" in walls seems easily achieved by opening a window. The house is what needs to breath. (How much air diffusion is optimal for a wall is a very complicated and controversial separate issue. Its much easier to install an HRV than it is to waste valuable brain time by studying the problem). Probably the most common treatment in the SW, is to use a cementitious basecoat (2 for strawbale or adobe, 1 coat for anything else), that has fiberglass mixed in for cracking resistance (required by code if doing a single base coat). Then an acrylic is used for the color coat. Good luck on this one. Buzz Burrell "Time flies like an arrow, Boulder, CO Fruit flies like a banana". ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 6 02:17:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA01037 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:17:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA19314 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA08502; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA08504 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:10:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from november.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA08499 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.67] (p67.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.67]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA04066 for ; Sat, 6 Sep 1997 06:18:08 GMT Message-Id: <199709060618.GAA04066@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Foam Date: Sat, 6 Sep 97 00:14:07 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 33 On 9/5/97 12:00 AM Michael Molnar wrote: >I am currently building a home in mid-Michigan. One of the local insulating >contractors offers spray ureathane foam. This product is ported to be non- >toxic and having a R-8.14/in. This seems wonderful, and I am considering its >use. The only drawback I can figur' is that it will be impossible to run any >addition wiring in these wall at a later time. I would be using the foam >only on exterior(2x4) walls( Foundation to top plate) Does anybody have any >experience with this product? It seems like a wonderful product. If you like "natural", stay away from this. It's pretty wierd stuff. But it works well. I sprayed it on the outside of a compressed earth block home. The blocks were dry stacked (no motar); this foam served not only to insulate the whole house (I think its more like R6-7/inch), but also was the waterproofing material, AND it even served a structural role by sticking the blocks together. An inexpensive and blazingly fast way to build a house. Finally, the rounded corners contributed to the "adobe" look we wanted to achieve. However, I would never use it on the inside of a house, unless it was to mitigate problems or other issues. It's overkill for one; Icynene or other products would seem to be more suitable. I question its environmental impact, although I don't fully understand this issue. And lastly, once you've touched it, most people would not want it near their living space. Regarding wiring, I think that is not a consideration; it will be problem regardless of what material you use, so run whatever you can imagine now, and note there are ways to surface wire that aren't bad. Buzz Burrell Bolder Building ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 7 13:45:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA28198 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:45:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA21688 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:40:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA29354; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA00808 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:35:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout12.mail.aol.com (emout12.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.38]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA00804 for ; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:35:06 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA03758 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970907133707_-1632738940@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: G40michael@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: ureathane foam Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 34 In a message dated 9/7/97 1:12:02 AM, you wrote: <> Hi, Terry here. I've used foamed in place polyurethane in many applications over the years. The things that most struck me about it are: 1) it's foamed with a refrigerant (which is how gets a high R-value - like R-10 per inch or so the day it's foamed. The refrigerant begins outgassing immediately according to Ficke's law of diffusion, eventually stablizing at around R-5 per inch) 2) refrigerants contribute to global atmospheric changes that are bad news for humans and a large number of other species (probably good news for a whole different set of species) 3) they contain isocyanurates, which are a) potent chemical sensitizers and b) highly toxic. The burden of these two things is born by workers who manufacture the resins or use the resins to manufacture other products and people who live near the manufacturing sites (according to the polyurethane assoication the reason most workers leave industries where urethane resins are used is because they have developed disabling sensitivites to the isocynurates) 4) although widely reported as a fire hazard because of the toxicity and smoke developed numbers, they have the same smoke developed and toxicity values as white pine - very, very bad if you breathe it. I beleive that means that it should not be exposed in interior spaces or return plenums to meet any of the national codes. I beleive this qualm is a fifth order effect with regard to fire safety. It is far more important to air seal a building to prevent the quick spread of fire and smoke. 5) don't spray it around electrical wires. Electrical wires are rated for current flow with air surrounding them so they can cool convectively. Sealing them in a high R value foam is probably ok for the loads most circuits see, but it is a step towards the edge of a cliff - overheated wiring causing fire. In combination with a couple of other steps towards the edge, like a nearby source of heat and a couple of overloaded circuits - why risk it? The insulators I used always sprayed around the wiring so it was left exposed. 6) it sticks to everything except polyethylene (damp dirty rocks, wood, wet concrete, metal). There is nothing that works so effectively at insulating and air sealing nooks, crannies and odd shapes (rim joists, cantilevered overhangs, bay and bow windows, skylight vaults, crawlspace walls). Oh, yeah, it especially sticks to skin, clothes, boots and is like a colossal darg to breathe 'cause it sticks to lung tissue too. Installers need full, fitted respiratory protection for particles and gases. There are some solvents available that will clean it up while it is still tacky (seconds), after that it wears off. 7) sprayed into stud cavities, the entire wall becomes a structural panel. Good when using exterior foam board to cut down the stud losses with let in T bracing. It also generally expanded out past the stud surface and needed to be ground or knocked off. Figure a day of clean-up. 8) it's relatively expensive, and many of the benefits can be achieved with high density blown or glue sprayed cellulose. The foam is far more impermeable to moisture migration than the cellulose. I think that's all my experience with the stuff. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 8 09:24:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA11031 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:24:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA18964 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA22264; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA18634 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:15:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from webserve.kvinc.com ([207.100.217.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA18629 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by webserve.kvinc.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BCBC38.97C4D160@webserve.kvinc.com>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:21:30 -0400 Message-ID: From: Susan Szalla To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: commerical constr. market Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:21:29 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 35 I have noticed that most of the information that I find on "green building" is for the home building market. At this moment I am particularly interested in learning about sustainable building methods and materials that can be effectively utilized by contractors working in the institutional and commercial markets. If anyone has information about books, products, web sites, contacts, etc., that can help me in my pursuit please let me know. Thanks, Susan Szalla SAS@KVINC.COM ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 8 11:11:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA12419 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10502 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:06:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA24756; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA21008 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:02:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mhc.ab.ca (ns.mhc.ab.ca [192.139.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA21004 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:02:01 -0400 (EDT) From: LREBBECK@acd.mhc.ab.ca Received: from ns.mhc.ab.ca ([192.168.1.1]) by gate.mhc.ab.ca with ESMTP id <42628>; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:16:07 -0600 Received: from ACD.MHC.AB.CA by ACD.MHC.AB.CA (PMDF V5.0-3 #5923) id <01INE7LIQA1E00127Q@ACD.MHC.AB.CA> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 08 Sep 1997 09:05:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 10:05:07 -0600 Subject: GBlist: cold solvent weld To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <01INE7LIQJOK00127Q@ACD.MHC.AB.CA> X-VMS-To: IN%"greenbuilding@crest.org" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Note: Mail transport via Digital Equipment of Canada Ltd. Calgary gateway. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 36 A new ballet floor is being installed in the building where I work - thankfully being taped down rather than glued - but the joints are to be joined together with a cold solvent weld. The technical name on the can is *tetraphydrofuranne*. It is highly inflamable - explossive - and the material with it says it is considered safe because of the small amounts used. The contractor says he will use about 1/2 to 2/3 of a quart container. I obviously won't be around when this is being applied - but will have to be in the same building w/in 48 hours. The building is quite large - single story - but all connected by air circulation system. -Any idea how long this will outgas, and to what extent? The purpose of the weld is to provide a supple joint that will expand and contract with heat - so it is not a hard drying agent. - Any idea what alternatives might be available that would be less toxic, but would still provide the necessary join. Any common compounds to carpet glue? I have not been able to go back into our church that re-carpeted 2 years ago - and I suspect the glue. I appreciate any help you can give. Thanks Lyle Rebbeck LRebbeck@acd.mhc.ab.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 8 18:46:56 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA20588 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:46:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA26798 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:42:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA06055; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA04062 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:38:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m10.boston.juno.com (m10.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.195]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA04058 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:38:27 -0400 (EDT) From: gaudi@juno.com Received: (from gaudi@juno.com) by m10.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id SjQ28992; Mon, 08 Sep 1997 18:39:02 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: GBlist General Conditions Spec Language Message-ID: <19970908.153924.8518.5.gaudi@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-30 Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 18:39:02 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 37 Kurt, regarding your question on spec language. The general conditions and specifications are included in the project manual which is a subset of the bidding documents. A section on waste management comes under Division 1, section 01500; Construction Facilities and Temporary controls, Periodic Cleaning. Include your construction waste management plan there and reference it to section 01700 Contract Closeout and section 00700 General Requirements. This may require you to write a standard spec that includes: General 1.01 Requirements Included 1.02 Related Requirements 1.03 Waste Management Goals 1.04 Waste Management Plan 1.05 Recycling 1.06 Reuse 1.07 Materials Sorting 1.08 Recycling Economics Worksheet [ if applicable] 1.09 List of Recycling centers and haulers Products not applicable Execution not applicable Daniel J. Goudy Architect enviro dzine ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 8 23:16:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA25529 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:16:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA28040 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:11:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12565; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:10:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA10531 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:04:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA10526 for ; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA13520; Mon, 8 Sep 1997 20:04:14 -0700 Message-ID: <3414BBFD.6A2B481C@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 08 Sep 1997 20:01:17 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Buzz Burrell CC: GreenBuilding List Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Stucco X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199709060618.GAA04059@november.diac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 38 A quick note on breathability and latex/acrylic mediums. I came upon a reference for a european iaq research project that focused on mold growth between layers of latex paint (bathroom area focus) and between drywall and latex. Anyone familiar with this study or similar ones. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Buzz Burrell wrote: > > On 9/5/97 12:00 AM Joyce Coppinger wrote: > > >What polymers are used or can be used in stucco products used for > >strawbale construction? Concern is for breathable wall which won't > >crack over time because of climatic conditions (freeze and thaw > cycles, > >moisture, hot to cold climatic changes). What types of stucco > products > >are available using "natural" ingredients which would have the same > or > >similar properties as stucco or coatings with polymers? > > I've spent a bit of time researching stucco, and I still know > amazingly > little about this important material. I would like to hear other's > replies. > > First some terms, all of which apply to the Southwest only, and are > totally casual and unofficial. "Stucco" tends to mean whatever is > applied to the exterior, and "plaster" means its on the interior. > Whats > called "traditional" stucco is cementitious; its usually applied in > 3 > coats ("scratch", "brown", and "color"). Of course, this isn't > traditional at all; that would be mud. The word is used to > differentiate from the acrylics, such as Dry-Vit, etc, which are > essentially heavy duty paints. I have no idea what you might mean by > a > "polymer", unless it was mistaken for acrylic, or is one of the roof > coating products more common in commercial and industrial > construction. > So there are three general residential classes of stucco: 1. mud; 2. > cement; 3. synthetic (acrylic). > > These are often mixed together. For example, it is rare for someone > today to use a pure mud; it is usually "stabilized" with a percentage > of > cement. Thus, there is a huge range of possibilities, plus all the > additives to the above (cactus juice, horse hair, sheep blood, etc). > A > fun treatment is to use a cementitious stucco, but utilizing sand from > your site for the mix; thus you get a truly harmonious color scheme. > > In practice however, I think the choices narrow to something much more > manageable. Straw bale requires 3 coats, due to the gaps to fill, > which > mandates either a mud/cement or cement base. Then the color coat can > be > either acrylic or cementitous. Frankly, I think this is simply > personal > choice; they both work fine. > > Which brings us back to your question regarding "a breathable wall > which > won't > crack over time". > > I find this "breathable" question somewhat annoying, in part because I > don't know enough myself, in part because I think its a false alarm, > and > in part because I suspect it doesn't matter. > > 1. If its cementitious or mud, it will crack, and often not over very > much time. Guaranteed. If a stucco doesn't crack, then its not a > "natural" product. Sorry about that. The mud stucco's were usually > refinished on a regular basis. The hairline cracks in the cementitous > products are considered to be a cosmetic issue only. The acrylics > stretch and cover the hairline cracks in the underlying basecoats. > > 2. Personally, I wonder how much the two differ in breathability > anyway. > Imagine being inside a sealed room with no openings, with one encased > in > 3/4" of concrete, and the other encased in the same with an 1/8" of > paint > on top. I think you would suffocate in either one. Maybe not though; > I > would love to hear the air transmission ratings for these different > stucco products from a more technically proficient list subscriber. > > 3. At any rate, "breathability" in walls seems easily achieved by > opening > a window. > The house is what needs to breath. (How much air diffusion is optimal > for a wall is a very complicated and controversial separate issue. > Its > much easier to install an HRV than it is to waste valuable brain time > by > studying the problem). > > Probably the most common treatment in the SW, is to use a cementitious > basecoat (2 for strawbale or adobe, 1 coat for anything else), that > has > fiberglass mixed in for cracking resistance (required by code if doing > a > single base coat). Then an acrylic is used for the color coat. > > Good luck on this one. > > Buzz Burrell "Time flies like an arrow, > Boulder, CO Fruit flies like a banana". > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 08:47:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA01510 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:47:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA25123 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA21019; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA18241 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:39:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout17.mail.aol.com (emout17.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.43]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA18237 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:39:26 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout17.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA00242; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970909084128_1853247782@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: terrain@cow-net.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Stucco Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 39 In a message dated 9/8/97 11:38:18 PM, you wrote: <> Hi, I got mountains of studies on fungal growth in my files, but not this one. I'd sure be interested in the study you recall. I'm not familiar with that study, but I have a fair amount of direct experience growing and dealing with mold and a fair amount of training in indoor biology. Mold, like any living creature is looking for food, water, shelter and a way to make babies (mold is a bit more broad minded about reproductive methods than mammals). For food it needs carbon, but has evolved to get rid of cellulose and lignin - old plant stuff. For water it needs a material to grow on that contains 65% or more the amount of water it takes to saturate the material. Latex paint an d the paper covering on wallboard are good sources of carbon. I find viable mold spores everywhere I sample, unless the surface has been sanitized. All it takes for fungal growth in latex paint or wallboard covering is enough water to get to the needed water activity in the material. So bathroom walls are good locations. In cooling mode, particularly if the house is running negative, the inner paper layer sheetrock beneath the paint is a good location for moisture accumulation by condensation, doubly so if there is vinyl wallpaper. In heating mode the same dynamic makes a good habitat for fungi in the outer stucco layer of the exterior walls, especially if the house is running positive. These problems are more likely in areas where there is a lot of moisture in the outdoor air, like the coastal states, or in sampwy microclimates. The biggest, most difficult to deal with fungal problems I've encoutered always seem to be in places with names like - Beaver River, Nine-Mile Swamp, and Buzzards Bay. In these places the mold grows on everything inside and out. In places where they get 7 inches of rain a year, it takes a special coincidence of events to make a habitat for mold. Jeeze, I kinda rambled on being professorial. Well, take what you like and leave the rest. Warm regards, Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 09:58:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA02422 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA09534 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:54:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23165; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:54:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA19953 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:44:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from freenet.calgary.ab.ca (srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca [198.161.243.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA19948; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 09:44:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca(198.161.243.11) by srv1.freenet.calgary.ab.ca via smap (V1.3) id ZZ37034; Tue Sep 9 07:44:19 1997 Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:44:19 -0600 (MDT) From: Jorg Ostrowski To: "Shannon C. Dealy" Cc: Gregg Pulley , owly@mcn.net, strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: heat pumps In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Organization: Calgary Free-Net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 40 Which manufacturer makes the most efficient ground/water coupled HP that can be operated from photovoltaics.I expect a COP of at least 4.5 (heating) for a liquid-to-liquid system, but am really interested in small units (design heat loss = 30,000 Btu/hr @ -24 dF) with COP of 12 (like Dennis Lee's HP) and environmentally-sound phase change mediums. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: , _____________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 11:06:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03925 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:06:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA25283 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:02:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26103; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:03:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21817 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:58:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21813 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 10:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA18009; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:58:33 -0700 Message-ID: <34156364.A2A1BF51@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 07:55:32 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Buzz Burrell CC: GreenBuilding List Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: HRV X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199709060618.GAA04059@november.diac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 41 Buzz Burrell wrote: > > The house is what needs to breath. (How much air diffusion is optimal > for a wall is a very complicated and controversial separate issue. > Its > much easier to install an HRV than it is to waste valuable brain time > by > studying the problem). > I have to disagree in part or at least rephrase - I think an HRV is an ad hoc or bumper solution (and one that I think will breed a whole host of problems in the future). Fungal and bacterial growth in ductwork is a leading cause of SBS and difficult to control as ductwork can provide a good breeding ground for fungal activity. Fungal spores from 1 micron in size enter from supply air. A HEPA filter if tightly fitted can prevent entry but if not maintained can actually exacerbate the problem. Microbial activity inside the ductwork is difficult to control as the conditions that cause the activity are unseen and can be unpredictable. HRV may be a necessary solution at this point but I think brain time should be always reserved for a more fundamental understanding of basic materials. Cementious and masonry materials have an interesting ability to recover heat, retain moisture and transfer air. Moisture retained in and traveling through porous rock has been shown at a biological level an ability to host activity that can remove toxins from the air that are not normally water soluble. In other words there is a potential for indoor air purification as a function of materials used (another 'living machine' concept.) I am looking for some specifications for duct preparation, installation and maintenance schedules that are designed to minimize potential for contamination. The installation is for air supply, exhaust and heat recovery as a retrofit in an old house (4500sq.ft) for a MCS person. I originally wanted to manage supply and exhaust passively and manage heat recovery with an air to water exchange (heating is hydronic) which I still think is feasible but am having trouble with the general design, anyone have any suggestions or worked on something similar. Thanks, John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 11:11:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03986 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA26350 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26246; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA21968 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:03:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA21964 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:03:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id L_Q00242; Tue, 09 Sep 1997 11:05:22 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: whawthorne@enermodal.com Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 08:43:51 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Re: low energy houses Message-ID: <19970909.084410.10478.2.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <970909084128_1853247782@emout17.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 42 Question: Do you have some info on prototype low energy residences that have been built in the US? thanks Samantha ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 11:18:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04776 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28252 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26548; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:13:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA22169 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:09:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22165 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.128] (pm0a28.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.128]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA06089; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709091511.LAA06089@pike.sover.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: commerical constr. market Date: Tue, 9 Sep 97 11:13:51 -0400 x-sender: ebn@sover.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Nadav Malin To: "Susan Szalla" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 43 >I have noticed that most of the information that I find on "green >building" is for the home building market. At this moment I am >particularly interested in learning about sustainable building methods >and materials that can be effectively utilized by contractors working >in the institutional and commercial markets. If anyone has >information about books, products, web sites, contacts, etc., > that can help me in my pursuit please let me know. > >Thanks, >Susan Szalla >SAS@KVINC.COM > The content of Environmental Building News is pretty evenly split between topics of interest to commercial and residential designers and builders--at least that's been our intent--we'd love to hear how others find it! Also, we have just released our new E Build Library CD-ROM containing all back issues of the newsletter in text-searchable format, which should contain much of what you're looking for. In terms of other resources, there are many. All subscribers get a free copy of our annotated bibliography of green building information resources, which will next be update for December 1997 publication. Yours, Nadav EEEEE BBBB NN N ENVIRONMENTAL BUILDING NEWS RR 1, Box 161 E B B N N N The Newsletter Brattleboro, VT 05301 EEE BBBB N N N on Environmentally tel. 802/257-7300 E B B N NN Responsible Design fax 802/257-7304 EEEEE BBBB N N and Construction http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 11:22:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04838 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA29091 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:17:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26736; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:18:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA22343 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:14:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22339 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:14:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.128] (pm0a28.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.128]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA07204; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:16:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709091516.LAA07204@pike.sover.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Planet Neighborhood Date: Tue, 9 Sep 97 11:18:39 -0400 x-sender: ebn@sover.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Nadav Malin To: , "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 44 >Greenbuilder Educators: >Some of this list's members are organizations which conduct educational >activities. Those members and others will want to check out "Planet >Neighborhood" at >http://www.weta.org/planet/materials.shtml > >This site describes a 3 part PBS series which asks for community >partners and provides a chance for active participation. >"Planet Neighborhood" is about the ways creative people across the >nation have used innovative technologies to preserve the envrionment. >Hosted by architect Wm. McDonough, dean at Univ. of Virginia, the show >broadcasts on SEPTEMBER 8. Check local PBS stations for time. > >When you get into the information, you'll see there are FREE materials >available, including videos, "The Home","The Car", and "Wetlands >Technology". > >What a deal! >Pat Ballentine > I thought I'd mention that several of the sponsors of this list have been hard at work for the last few months on the Greenhome CD-ROM that is part of this list of resources. CREST produced the CD for WETA, and Alex Wilson wrote most of the content. It consists of a virtual walk-through of a house that is modelled on one that John Abrams and his South Mountain Company built recently on Marthas Vineyard. We have yet to see the final version, but it should be a lot of fun. Nadav EEEEE BBBB NN N ENVIRONMENTAL BUILDING NEWS RR 1, Box 161 E B B N N N The Newsletter Brattleboro, VT 05301 EEE BBBB N N N on Environmentally tel. 802/257-7300 E B B N NN Responsible Design fax 802/257-7304 EEEEE BBBB N N and Construction http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 16:02:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA11754 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 16:02:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA08461 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:58:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA05024; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:57:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA01920 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:52:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from iris.pti.nw.dc.us (iris.pti.nw.dc.us [199.75.60.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA01916 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:52:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from station6.pti.nw.dc.us ([199.75.60.86]) by iris.pti.nw.dc.us (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with SMTP id AAA19869; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 15:56:33 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970909195508.00a16e64@pti.nw.dc.us> X-Sender: wood-lewis@pti.nw.dc.us X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 15:55:08 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Michael Wood-Lewis" Subject: GBlist: Sustainable Building NW Conference Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 45 Attn: Greenbuilders: Sustainable Building Northwest Conference and Trade Show offers a great opportunity to learn how to move greenbuilding theory into practice and to network with professionals in the field. The conference will be held October 27-29, 1997, in Seattle. For more info: http://pti.nw.dc.us/sus.htm O'Brien & Company P.O. Box 10705 Bainbridge Island, WA 98110 (206) 842-8995 (206) 842-8717 fax obrien@halcyon.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 17:10:14 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA12637 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:10:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA28044 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:05:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA06592; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:06:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA04071 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:02:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA04066 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 17:02:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA06450; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 14:01:59 -0700 Message-ID: <3415B89C.A3E741C2@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 09 Sep 1997 13:59:08 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: TBren46501@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Stucco X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <970909084128_1853247782@emout17.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 46 Hi Terry, I came upon the reference in a search at Elselvier about a year ago - the thing that caught my attention was that the bacterial and fungal growth that was being investigated was between layers of latex paint. I'll see if I can find the publication reference again, or maybe somebody else might know of the study. Take care John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. TBren46501@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 9/8/97 11:38:18 PM, you wrote: > > < a > reference for a european iaq research project that focused on mold > growth between layers of latex paint (bathroom area focus) and between > drywall and latex. Anyone familiar with this study or similar ones.>> > > Hi, > > I got mountains of studies on fungal growth in my files, but not this > one. > I'd sure be interested in the study you recall. I'm not familiar > with that > study, but I have a fair amount of direct experience growing and > dealing with > mold and a fair amount of training in indoor biology. Mold, like any > living > creature is looking for food, water, shelter and a way to make babies > (mold > is a bit more broad minded about reproductive methods than mammals). > For > food it needs carbon, but has evolved to get rid of cellulose and > lignin - > old plant stuff. For water it needs a material to grow on that > contains 65% > or more the amount of water it takes to saturate the material. Latex > paint an > d the paper covering on wallboard are good sources of carbon. I find > viable > mold spores everywhere I sample, unless the surface has been > sanitized. All > it takes for fungal growth in latex paint or wallboard covering is > enough > water to get to the needed water activity in the material. So > bathroom walls > are good locations. In cooling mode, particularly if the house is > running > negative, the inner paper layer sheetrock beneath the paint is a good > location for moisture accumulation by condensation, doubly so if there > is > vinyl wallpaper. In heating mode the same dynamic makes a good > habitat for > fungi in the outer stucco layer of the exterior walls, especially if > the > house is running positive. These problems are more likely in areas > where > there is a lot of moisture in the outdoor air, like the coastal > states, or in > sampwy microclimates. The biggest, most difficult to deal with fungal > problems I've encoutered always seem to be in places with names like - > Beaver > River, Nine-Mile Swamp, and Buzzards Bay. In these places the mold > grows on > everything inside and out. In places where they get 7 inches of rain > a year, > it takes a special coincidence of events to make a habitat for mold. > > Jeeze, I kinda rambled on being professorial. Well, take what you > like and > leave the rest. > > Warm regards, > Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 9 20:59:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA17410 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:59:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA23075 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:55:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA11671; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:55:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA10774 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:50:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout12.mail.aol.com (emout12.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.38]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA10770 for ; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:50:12 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id UAA27876; Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970909205040_1661015128@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: mcshea1@gte.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green shopping malls? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 47 Cindy, Thanks for the reminder when you wrote about: << the Walmart Ecomarts in Lawrence, KS, and a new one in CA for energy and water efficiency, materials selection, and lighting. >> Are you (or others on the list) aware of any analysis on sales impact of the Walmart daylighting experiment? {For the list Walmart built some prototye daylighting "towers" instead of the old skylight scheme with, I think, the goals of looking at how it impacted both energy consumption and product sales in areas of natural light.} Looking for data.... Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 10 09:52:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA25307 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA22676 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:47:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23754; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:48:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23312 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:44:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x6.boston.juno.com ([207.205.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23308 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:44:07 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id J}V04280; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:44:42 EDT To: RCMathis1@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:43:49 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Green shopping malls? Message-ID: <19970910.085041.3630.1.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <970909205040_1661015128@emout12.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,7-38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 48 No hard data to offer but I know from experience that most Wal Mart stores have automated their lighting and other electrical systems. Master control is in Little Rock, Ark. We often use Wal Mart's success story in automation as an example when introducing this technology to the less (shall we say) educated. There are a lot of people who continue to believe that green building only means sod roofs and grass walls. We think it can be that and more. On Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:52:16 -0400 (EDT) RCMathis1@aol.com writes: >Cindy, > >Thanks for the reminder when you wrote about: ><< the Walmart Ecomarts in Lawrence, KS, and a new one in CA for >energy and > water efficiency, materials selection, and lighting. >> > > >Are you (or others on the list) aware of any analysis on sales impact >of the >Walmart daylighting experiment? {For the list Walmart built some >prototye >daylighting "towers" instead of the old skylight scheme with, I think, >the >goals of looking at how it impacted both energy consumption and >product sales >in areas of natural light.} > >Looking for data.... > >Chris Mathis >MCSquared >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 10 10:46:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA26751 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:46:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA06473 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24995; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA24796 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:39:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from smtp.gte.net (smtp.gte.net [207.115.153.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24790 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:38:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (clw231132.gte.net [207.115.231.132]) by smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with SMTP id JAA26756; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:41:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3416B17F.755A@gte.net> Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:41:03 -0400 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RCMathis1@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green shopping malls? References: <970909205040_1661015128@emout12.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 49 Chris, I don't have any follow up info on Walmart sales as a result of daylighting. I suggest you try Jan Mauldin, Director, Sales Promotions. 501-273-8228 V or 501-273-1931 F. Good luck, Cindy Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 10 10:47:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA26800 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:47:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA06527 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:42:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA25084; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:43:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA24817 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:39:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from dns.img.net (dns.img.net [207.34.144.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24812 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:39:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709101439.KAA24812@solstice.crest.org> Received: from sympatico.bc.sympatico.ca ([207.34.144.124]) by dns.img.net (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA43 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:47:32 -0700 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "pvisser" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:46:01 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #385 Reply-to: pvisser@img.net In-reply-to: <199709090600.CAA14024@solstice.crest.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 50 I follow the strawbale list and there has been a most interesting exchange on thermal flywheel, mass and natural comfort systems, including an appearance from nick pine himself, the author of many creative solutions for low energy low cost climate control strategies, and i posted some of these from my files. I am sure the readers of this list would enjoy a sampling of this. BTW where is the sept. 10 issue? prayan visser, Turnaround Supply ph. 250-490-7351 refining simple home comforts to work with nature. fax and home ph. 250-497-5146, ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 10 12:17:21 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA29874 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA28668 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA27173; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA27459 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:06:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA27455 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:06:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.103] (pa-ppp18.hevanet.com [204.119.60.103]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05533 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:08:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: obrien@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199709101439.KAA24812@solstice.crest.org> References: <199709090600.CAA14024@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:07:45 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Michael O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #385 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 51 ****CURMUDGEON ALERT 9/10/97 9:06 AM PST**** ****CRANKY MESSAGE FOLLOWS**** ****YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED**** About Nick Pine and his ideas, I would just like to say, they are long on creativity but I would check those fussy little details, like, how they fit with known laws of physics. Mike >I follow the strawbale list and there has been a most interesting >exchange on thermal flywheel, mass and natural comfort systems, >including an appearance from nick pine himself, the author of many >creative solutions for low energy low cost climate control >strategies, and i posted some of these from my files. >I am sure the readers of this list would enjoy a sampling of this. >BTW where is the sept. 10 issue? > >prayan visser, Turnaround Supply ph. 250-490-7351 >refining simple home comforts to work with nature. >fax and home ph. 250-497-5146, >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 10 21:16:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA09063 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA11718 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA08752; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:12:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA14010 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:07:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA14001 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:07:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.246.4.7] (iplink007.crocker.com [205.246.4.7]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA14952 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:10:10 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:15:44 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Green shopping malls? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 52 Lisa >Is anybody aware of any shopping malls (regional, community and/or strip) >that have addressed green concerns? I'm looking for case studies where >energy or water efficiency, lighting, materials, smart land use plans or >waste management and other operational issues have been addressed, even on >a superficial level. Try Randy Croxton's office in New York City He and I were interviewed (separately) by a Boston-based shopping center developer who had good positive aspirations for turning their development product in this ("green") direction. I initially challenged their intention saying that I thought that shopping centers were (in concept) as "brown" as it comes. They countered.. we had a good, frank discussion. Croxton got the job though, and is now, presumably well advanced in design. Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 10 23:59:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA11407 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:59:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA21359 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA11272; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA17350 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:50:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.2.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA17346 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 23:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [199.174.181.187] (dd49-187.dub.compuserve.com [199.174.181.187]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA06776 for ; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:52:52 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 20:52:52 -0700 Message-Id: <199709110352.UAA06776@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: Air-Core Passive / Hybrid Heat Storage Info To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 53 Air-Core Passive / Hybrid Heat Storage Info In response to the posting by Ms. Howard (no relation) I have attached a listing of my publications in this area. We still periodically perform computer studies for designers intending to use concrete block underfloor or in-wall heat storage systems. Since 1984, I have conducted about twenty-five such design reviews, including homes, restaurants, and even a funeral home. The system is low in cost and works well if properly sized fans are installed. One thing I would like to try is sizing a PV array / DC motor pair to optimize underfloor heat storage and seasonal ventilation in a sunspace. This would make sense for an off-grid building. Another idea would be to create a hybrid destratification system teamed with low temperature hydronic radiant floor heating. With proper control logic the HRF would only need aux heat some of the time, which could be supplied from a water heater or tankless unit. Might be pretty efficient approach in a micro-load home. Finally, most of the systems I worked on used "cull" blocks that were locally produced and would not otherwise have been good enough for wall construction (recycled block would work too). Have also seen metal forms used for this purpose, but they are fragile to work with and have potentially higher embodied energy. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Air Core System / Building Related Publications // Bion Howard ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "The Air Core System for Thermal Storage." (peer-reviewed) The Passive Solar Journal. ASES/SERI Vol. 3 No. 3. 1986. ASES, Boulder Co. "Air Core Systems for Passive and Hybrid Energy - Conserving Buildings." ASHRAE Transactions, V. 92. Pt. 2. 1986. (peer-reviewed) Atlanta, GA. "Residential Design Examples -- Hollow Core Masonry Under Floor and In-wall Remote Heat Storage." 1986 - 11th National Passive Solar Conference. ASES, Boulder Co. NCMA "TEK-Note – The Air Core System" National Concrete Masonry Association, Herndon, VA (in. Manual of Facts on Concrete Masonry, NCMA.) "Achieving a Balanced Approach." 10th Passive Solar Conference. 1985 ASES, Boulder Co. (Co author: John Spears, President -- Sustainable Design Group) "Measured Performance of a (Solar) Home Using Concrete Masonry." 8th National Passive Solar Conference. 1983. ASES, Boulder Co. "Determination of Passive Solar Collector Energy Balances Using Two Different Methods." (with W.F. Roberts, AIA) 7th National Passive Solar Conference. 1982. ASES, Boulder Co. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- These publications also contain references to other literature on embedded structural heat storage options. PS: if this dialogue is too "energy related" we could move it to the EEBA "ee-building@crest.org" list, sister to the venerable greenbuilding list. Comments and discussion is most welcome. --------------- Contact Information------------------ Mr. Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, Maryland 20773 USA bdhoward@ix.netcom.com <--> http://www.nrg-builder.com Voice# 410-867-8000 fax# 301-889-0889 ------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 11 00:17:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA11552 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:17:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA25326 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA11692; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:14:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA17694 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:10:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from dns.img.net (dns.img.net [207.34.144.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA17690; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709110410.AAA17690@solstice.crest.org> Received: from sympatico.bc.sympatico.ca ([207.34.144.224]) by dns.img.net (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA247; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:18:05 -0700 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "pvisser" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:16:39 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Re: no mail today Reply-to: pvisser@img.net CC: stawbale@crest.org In-reply-to: <199709090600.CAA14024@solstice.crest.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 54 no news today, how come? i got reactions back from other people, other mail, but nothing from crest, no duplicate postings, no SB either.... prayan visser, Turnaround Supply ph. 250-490-7351 refining simple home comforts to work with nature. fax and home ph. 250-497-5146, ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 11 20:23:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA01201 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA26834 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:18:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA08299; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA12766 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:14:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA12761 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.245.166] (1Cust38.max5.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.245.166]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA08837 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709120016.RAA08837@italy.it.earthlink.net> Subject: GBlist: Remember correct address for GB List Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 17:15:20 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 55 This is a quick "list-keeping" note. In the last couple of weeks there have been several messages--intended for the list--that were addressed to "owner-greenbuilding@crest.org" Using this address sends messages to the list _moderators_ (Nadav Malin, Zach Nobel and Bruce Sullivan). If you post a message, but don't see it come back into your own mailbox, the message may have been addressed improperly. The proper address is, of course, "greenbuilding@crest.org" Please check the address before sending and before _replying_ to a message. We try to inform individuals each time this occurs, but there has been an increase in this occurence. I thought a general warning was in order. Take Care, Bruce S ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 11 20:23:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA01201 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA26834 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:18:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA08299; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA12766 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:14:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA12761 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.245.166] (1Cust38.max5.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.245.166]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA08837 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709120016.RAA08837@italy.it.earthlink.net> Subject: GBlist: Remember correct address for GB List Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 17:15:20 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 56 This is a quick "list-keeping" note. In the last couple of weeks there have been several messages--intended for the list--that were addressed to "owner-greenbuilding@crest.org" Using this address sends messages to the list _moderators_ (Nadav Malin, Zach Nobel and Bruce Sullivan). If you post a message, but don't see it come back into your own mailbox, the message may have been addressed improperly. The proper address is, of course, "greenbuilding@crest.org" Please check the address before sending and before _replying_ to a message. We try to inform individuals each time this occurs, but there has been an increase in this occurence. I thought a general warning was in order. Take Care, Bruce S ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 11 00:17:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA11552 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:17:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA25326 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA11692; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:14:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA17694 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:10:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from dns.img.net (dns.img.net [207.34.144.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA17690; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:10:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709110410.AAA17690@solstice.crest.org> Received: from sympatico.bc.sympatico.ca ([207.34.144.224]) by dns.img.net (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA247; Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:18:05 -0700 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "pvisser" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:16:39 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Re: no mail today Reply-to: pvisser@img.net CC: stawbale@crest.org In-reply-to: <199709090600.CAA14024@solstice.crest.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 57 no news today, how come? i got reactions back from other people, other mail, but nothing from crest, no duplicate postings, no SB either.... prayan visser, Turnaround Supply ph. 250-490-7351 refining simple home comforts to work with nature. fax and home ph. 250-497-5146, ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 11 20:23:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA01201 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA26834 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:18:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA08299; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA12766 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:14:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA12761 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 20:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.245.166] (1Cust38.max5.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.245.166]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA08837 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709120016.RAA08837@italy.it.earthlink.net> Subject: GBlist: Remember correct address for GB List Date: Thu, 11 Sep 97 17:15:20 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 58 This is a quick "list-keeping" note. In the last couple of weeks there have been several messages--intended for the list--that were addressed to "owner-greenbuilding@crest.org" Using this address sends messages to the list _moderators_ (Nadav Malin, Zach Nobel and Bruce Sullivan). If you post a message, but don't see it come back into your own mailbox, the message may have been addressed improperly. The proper address is, of course, "greenbuilding@crest.org" Please check the address before sending and before _replying_ to a message. We try to inform individuals each time this occurs, but there has been an increase in this occurence. I thought a general warning was in order. Take Care, Bruce S ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 12 03:26:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA06096 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:26:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA11208 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:21:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA26749; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:23:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA27972 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:17:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from r1.boston.juno.com (r1.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.241]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA27967 for ; Fri, 12 Sep 1997 03:17:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by r1.boston.juno.com (8.8.6.Beta0/8.8.6.Beta0/2.0.kim) with ESMTP id XAAAA08112 for ; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id XNK29164; Thu, 11 Sep 1997 23:31:46 EDT To: RCMathis1@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 21:25:16 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Walmart Message-ID: <19970911.212914.6678.2.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <970909205040_1661015128@emout12.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 7-41 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 59 I dont know many of the specifics about the results- however i lived in Lawrence for 5 years, and shopped there all the time- also know what areas of the project were "jokes of the town". May be able to find a phone number and contact name (for the environmental education person there) if there is an interest in talking with the store directly. I almost took a job as an intern as they were starting to build the one in CA, didnt- but also talked with the people in AK that knew more about it- could also get their info if wanted. Samantha On Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:52:16 -0400 (EDT) RCMathis1@aol.com writes: >Cindy, > >Thanks for the reminder when you wrote about: ><< the Walmart Ecomarts in Lawrence, KS, and a new one in CA for >energy and > water efficiency, materials selection, and lighting. >> > > >Are you (or others on the list) aware of any analysis on sales impact >of the >Walmart daylighting experiment? {For the list Walmart built some >prototye >daylighting "towers" instead of the old skylight scheme with, I think, >the >goals of looking at how it impacted both energy consumption and >product sales >in areas of natural light.} > >Looking for data.... > >Chris Mathis >MCSquared >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 13 10:38:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA01658 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:38:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA13251 for ; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA09293; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA08415 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:25:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from cow.chelmsford.com (cow.chelmsford.com [199.103.186.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA08407; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:25:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (cos-port32.chelmsford.com [199.103.186.132]) by cow.chelmsford.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA12662; Sat, 13 Sep 1997 10:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <341ABC59.57FB@chelmsford.com> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:16:25 -0700 From: Jim Rogers Reply-To: jrogers@chelmsford.com Organization: James K. Rogers, PE X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jorg Ostrowski CC: "Shannon C. Dealy" , Gregg Pulley , owly@mcn.net, strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: heat pumps References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 60 The efficiency depends on where it will be operated and whether its peak will be for heating or cooling. For geothermal heat pump applications in northern climates, the units from ECONAR in Anoka MN would be ideal. They are designed specifically for northern climates where heating loads predominate. For southern climates, where the opposite is true, units from either ClimateMaster or WaterFurnace may be better. If you need contacts at these companies let me know. Good luck. - Jim Rogers - ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 15 10:01:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA05552 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:01:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA20957 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA01660; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23892 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:47:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23888 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:47:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.146] (pm1a16.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.146]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25416 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:49:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:51:50 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: Bamboo flooring info/experiences? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 61 For an upcoming article, I'm seeking any first-hand information or experiences using strip flooring made from bamboo. I'm aware of two companies selling it in the U.S.: Smith & Fong in San Francisco Bamboo Hardwoods in Seattle I also used to have contact with a Canadian company, Floorworks, but haven't seen anything from them for a long time. Any additional leads or comments will be most appreciated. Thanks, Nadav Malin Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 15 10:30:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA06083 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA28180 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:25:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA02222; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA24669 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:19:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from smtp.gte.net (smtp.gte.net [207.115.153.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24665 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:18:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (clw002045.gte.net [207.175.2.45]) by smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with SMTP id JAA01027 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:21:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <341D4465.29A3@gte.net> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 10:21:25 -0400 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: [Fwd: NEW SUBCRIBER] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------B6235487760" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 62 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B6235487760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think the members of this list serve are more likely to have the answers Oliver seeks. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development --------------B6235487760 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay.gte.net ([207.115.153.25]) by sm2.gte.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release "2" ID# 0-32582L10S150000) with ESMTP id AAA18979 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:22:21 -0500 Received: from naps.uwindsor.ca (dns.uwindsor.ca [137.207.232.1]) by relay.gte.net with SMTP id HAA23441 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:23:09 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: naps: Host pdomain.campus.uwindsor.ca claimed to be pdomain.uwindsor.ca Received: from pdomain.uwindsor.ca by pdomain.uwindsor.ca via SMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.TT) id HAA06088; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:35:17 -0400 Received: from PDOMAIN.UWINDSOR.CA by PDOMAIN.UWINDSOR.CA (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8b) with spool id 387794 for ECDM@PDOMAIN.UWINDSOR.CA; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:33:55 -0400 Received: from naps.uwindsor.ca by pdomain.uwindsor.ca via ESMTP (940816.SGI.8.6.9/940406.SGI.TT) for id HAA05962; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 07:33:52 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: naps: Host rajah-old.pworld.net.ph claimed to be rajah.pworld.net.ph Received: from oliver (ip115.pworld.net.ph [203.176.24.115]) by rajah.pworld.net.ph (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA06404 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:42:00 +0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Approved-By: Oliver Rempillo Message-ID: <341D1F9B.B90E91AB@cryogen.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:44:27 +0800 Reply-To: Oliver Rempillo Sender: Environmentally Conscious Design & Mfg List From: Oliver Rempillo Subject: NEW SUBCRIBER To: Multiple recipients of list ECDM X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 I'm Oliver Rempillo a student and currently undertaking a design project. The project is to make a environmentally freindly computer workstation that is designed for schools (computer classrooms) and not for individual use. As you can see one of the major concern of this project is not only ergonomics but also how to make it environmetally friendly. It is the reason why I join this discussion group. Does any body out there know where I could get environmental freindly materials, such as plywood that doesn't use phenol formaldehyde or any harmful substances and any environmetally freindly materials that I could use. And where can I get some research materials for the design. Thanks. --------------B6235487760-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 15 11:12:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA06620 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10712 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:07:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA03832; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:07:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA25805 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:02:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA25800 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id L^D27564; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:02:04 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: environmentally friendly workstation Message-ID: <19970915.094858.4503.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-11,13-20 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:02:04 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 63 Hi, Oliver wrote requesting info on environmentally friendly workstations. Here are some suggestions. For recycled content & IAQ consider either a wheatboard or exterior grade plywood substrate with a laminate of Environ or wood laminate from M. Bohlke. Also look at some of the products from Yemm & Hart using recycled plastic. An alternative substrate, but one that would have to be sealed, would be Gridcore. Be sure to include provisions for low energy task lighting. Also, Designtex makes a recycled content fabric for panels called "Play it Again Sam." Sincerely, Beverly A. Weiter Environs Interiors Inc. 561-852-4262 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 15 12:28:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA07536 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02506 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06666; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA28149 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:15:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from iceland.it.earthlink.net (iceland-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA28142 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:15:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.246.39] (1Cust39.max6.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.246.39]) by iceland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA24880; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:17:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709151617.JAA24880@iceland.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Bamboo flooring info/experiences? Date: Mon, 15 Sep 97 09:16:39 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Nadav Malin" , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 64 Nadav The REDI database (www.oikos.com/redi/) lists three more companies. Plyboo America, Inc Bamboo Flooring International Corp Amati Bambu Ltd. I've contacted all three companies in the last three months, so chances are good that they're still around. Bruce >For an upcoming article, I'm seeking any first-hand information or >experiences using strip flooring made from bamboo. I'm aware of two >companies selling it in the U.S.: > >Smith & Fong in San Francisco > >Bamboo Hardwoods in Seattle > >I also used to have contact with a Canadian company, Floorworks, but >haven't seen anything from them for a long time. > >Any additional leads or comments will be most appreciated. > >Thanks, Nadav Malin >Environmental Building News ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 15 14:36:05 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA09952 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA14275 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:31:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04085; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:31:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA02732 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:23:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA02728 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5.carleton.ca [134.117.136.25]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15446; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id OAA17030; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709151826.OAA17030@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Living Wall Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 65 Hello GB-Heads; An amigo from Arizona asked me if I knew anything about the "Living Wall" (designed by Wolf Amelung ?) biological air filter/ conditioner that was installed in the Canada Life building in Toronto. All I had to offer was third-hand (and hand-waving at that ) cursory knowledge about it. ...ie A wall of volcanic rock with water flowing over it, with various flora and fauna here and there ...through and around which, air is passed in order to to remove/neutralise contaminants/pollutants. Can anyone else on this List enlighten my desert friend with more/better information ? (I'm betting "Yes"). -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 15 18:06:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA14099 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA01249 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:02:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA11655; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:55:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA09888 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:50:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA09884 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA01373; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:49:55 -0700 Message-ID: <341DACDD.AFE8AF76@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:47:09 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Living Wall X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199709151826.OAA17030@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 66 Hi Robert How much did you bet? There is a web site on the breathing wall at http://www.ists.ca/canlif.htm which is a site of one of the sponsors. The project is just as you described it "...i.e. A wall of volcanic rock with > water flowing over it, with various flora and fauna here and > there ...through and around which, air is passed in order to to > remove/neutralise contaminants/pollutants. Here is a quote from Michael Dixon in a press release on the project > We have proved that a biological filter can actively remove significant > amounts of contaminants directly out of the air'', said Dr. Michael Dixon, who > heads the project for the University of Guelph. ``We are confident that > further experiments will corroborate these results and build on our knowledge > as we further challenge the plant system.'' > This development addresses the issues associated with sick building > syndrome or building related illness, which results as modern buildings, > designed to be air tight to facilitate heating and cooling, accumulate noxious > compounds. > The experiment forced low levels of the pollutants, formaldehyde, toluene > and trichloroethylene (TCE), commonly found in poor quality indoor air through > the water and plant biomass on the Breathing Wall of the Canada Life > Environmental Room. I spoke to Wolf Amelung about a year ago. He described a certain amount of skepticism on the part of some of the researchers involved. They felt that a certain number of water soluble contaminants would be affected by the process but (they) were surprised to find that substances such as toluene which are not water soluble were being removed by the process. The 'process' like all the best things in life is a mystery or to use a more acceptable term it is 'biological'. It is Wolf's opinion that the active elements are sub ecosystems of the overall semi aquatic life systems that were 'constructed' - in other words 'biological' - not unlike the wonderful 'schmutzdecke'. I was researching it for possible use in recirculating air in an indoor pool enclosure. I became interested in it again for possible use in purifying air for a MCS person but am concerned about biological contaminants. As far as I know no results have been published but I was planning to contact Dr. Dixon to see what information is available. One of Wolf's anecdotes was that the water system had to be shut down when the room was used as a boardroom as it caused everyone's bladder to overreact John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Robert W. Tom wrote: > > Hello GB-Heads; > > An amigo from Arizona asked me if I knew anything about the > "Living Wall" (designed by Wolf Amelung ?) biological air filter/ > conditioner that was installed in the Canada Life building in > Toronto. > > All I had to offer was third-hand (and hand-waving at that ) > cursory knowledge about it. ...ie A wall of volcanic rock with > water flowing over it, with various flora and fauna here and > there ...through and around which, air is passed in order to to > remove/neutralise contaminants/pollutants. > > Can anyone else on this List enlighten my desert friend with > more/better information ? (I'm betting "Yes"). > > -- > Rob Tom > ---------- * ------------ > be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca > Kanata, Ontario, Canada > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 15 18:09:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA14155 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA01868 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 18:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA11799; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:58:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA10028 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:53:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pathway1.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [204.191.122.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA10024 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:53:32 -0400 (EDT) From: timex@pathcom.com Received: from ts5l11.pathcom.com (ts5l11.pathcom.com [209.112.16.95]) by pathway1.pathcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA19020; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:55:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709152155.RAA19020@pathway1.pathcom.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 17:52:02 +0000 Subject: Re: GBlist: Living Wall Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <199709151826.OAA17030@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 67 Tom: There is a web-site for this wall. See: http://www.ists.ca/canlif.htm Hope this is helpful. Marilyn http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Keep on keepin' on. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 15 20:19:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA16452 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:19:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA03387 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA14582; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:08:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA13208 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:04:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from Bob.cstone.net (bob.cstone.net [205.197.102.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA13198 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bstander.cstone.net (Dialin20.cstone.net [205.197.102.88]) by Bob.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-40984U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA1550 for ; Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:07:07 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970915150003.0069133c@cstone.net> X-Sender: bstander@cstone.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 20:03:56 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: bstander@cstone.net (Bella Stander) Subject: GBlist: Sources for decorative ceramic cabinet knobs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 68 ArialI'm looking for Delft-style ceramic cabinet knobs. Bought some beautiful ones by mail about 10 years ago from a company called Dutch Tile, somewhere in PA (near Philly?), but I lost the catalog during a divorce and 4 moves in 3 states in 5 years. Does anyone have any info or recommendations? Thanks! --Bella Stander (central Va.) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 16 02:27:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA21959 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA01498 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:23:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA21814; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA20652 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:20:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA20648 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:20:05 -0400 (EDT) From: woodeneagle@juno.com Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id CKX11029; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:21:38 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:22:00 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #387: Walmart Message-ID: <19970915.222404.12462.6.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199709130600.CAA04569@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 69 Wendy The Walmart stores in Alaska are mostly like those everywhere else in the US,,,,On the edge of town, with a large parking lot, stoked with RV campers every night, which are taking business away from the campground accross the streeet.....I don't see anything benificial coming from them that is good for the community ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 16 10:36:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00156 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA23537 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA26733; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:28:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA27169 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:23:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from smtp.gte.net (smtp.gte.net [207.115.153.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA27165 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:23:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (clw233180.gte.net [207.115.233.180]) by smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with SMTP id JAA21446; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:26:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <341E96EA.4257@gte.net> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:25:46 -0400 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bella Stander CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Sources for decorative ceramic cabinet knobs References: <3.0.32.19970915150003.0069133c@cstone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 70 Bella, You might want to go right to the source. There are two geniune delftware manufacturers in the Netherlands. The Delftse Pauw Delftweg 133 Delft, NL and The Porcelain Fles Rotterdamseweg 196 Delft, NL I don't know if they fill mail orders or send catalogs, but it's a start. They may have US distributors. And don't worry about writing in English. Everybody in the Netherlands speaks at least three languages, including great English. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 16 19:12:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA10403 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA29480 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA07561; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA14403 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:03:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pathway1.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [204.191.122.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA14397 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:03:21 -0400 (EDT) From: timex@pathcom.com Received: from ts17l1.pathcom.com (ts17l1.pathcom.com [209.112.17.84]) by pathway1.pathcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA19540 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:05:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709162305.TAA19540@pathway1.pathcom.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:01:57 +0000 Subject: GBlist: (Fwd) [webgrrls-toronto] Not web-oriented, but might be of int Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 71 Thought this might be of interest to some of the Canadians on this list. I hope it is not considered inappropriate to post it. Marilyn > > Please send this message to other appropriate addresses on your email >lists... > Let's Rally for Clean Solutions to Climate Protection > > > The Canadian Council of Ministers of the Environment is meeting in Toronto, > preparing for the Framework Convention on Climate Change Meeting. > > > FRIDAY 19, SEPTEMBER 1997 > 1 P.M. TO 2:00 P.M. > > BARBARA SCOTT PARK > (across from the Delta Chelsea Hotel) > North side of Gerrard, just west of Yonge Street > > > Bring your signs, petitions, literature, banners and advice to the ministers > > * Demand that Canada sign a legally binding treaty at the Kyoto summit, > committing to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 20% by year 2005. > > * Demand that Canada support national, provincial and local projects to end > fossil fuel dependance and implement the conversion to renewable energy. > >Sponsored by Greenest City, Greenpeace, Toronto Environmental Alliance. __________________________________________________________________________ http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Keep on keepin' on. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 16 20:34:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA11909 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:34:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA17580 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:29:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA09267; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:27:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA16441 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:22:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.2.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA16437 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.175.107.175] (hdn107-175.hil.compuserve.com [206.175.107.175]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA19212 for ; Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:25:09 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 17:25:09 -0700 Message-Id: <199709170025.RAA19212@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: Attn.: bandwidth vampires To: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <199709160600.CAA20327@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 72 RE: many postings since about mid-August 1997 <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Please do not post unnecessary garbage like message headers and routing listings with your information. It is virtual polution. Also, only re-post the excerpted meat of a question you are trying to answer. Many participants are good at this, others are annoyingly bad. OK? End of rant. <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Bion Howard, Building Environmental Science & Technology ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 17 18:38:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA29409 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:38:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA02029 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:34:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA05591; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA16262 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:30:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from november.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA16256 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.164] (p164.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.164]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA14586 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:38:24 GMT Message-Id: <199709172238.WAA14586@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: The Dog Days Date: Wed, 17 Sep 97 16:34:51 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 73 GreenBuilding List activity seems a little slow recently (either that or my 'net connection isn't working right again). I've been missing my bedtime reading. It almost makes me think the people on this List are actually working for a living and don't have time to aimlessly discuss what they spend 40+ hours a week thinking about already. In that spirit, I have a few questions that maybe someone could help me with: 1. I've been perplexed by some of the issues in this business. I need to know how to build a house that is totally energy efficient, is made only from ecological materials, provides excellent indoor air quality, will be readily code-approved, and is inexpensive. Please send detailed specifications on such a structure. (Post directly to me, not the List; I don't want anyone else to know). 2. A client of mine wants a house with all arch top windows, hardwood floors, tile roof, hydronic heat, photovoltaic panels, water provided by a deep well, and a 500 SF master suite, for a total Hard Cost of $72,000. Please send me complete blueprints for this house. 3. My plumbers and my electricians almost got in a fist-fight yesterday. Seems the problem is they are equal in the pecking order, and so they keep trying to push each other around (the drywallers and insulators aren't on site yet). Which one gets to pick on the other? I've searched all my building manuals, but haven't found the correct graph or table to clear up this confusion. Please advise. 4. I just got a demo disk in the mail for a software program that will save me tons of time scheduling and estimating projects. However, that was three weeks ago; I haven't had time to look at the disk yet. Please provide the reference number for the spec sheet on how to deal with this particular situation. I haven't been able to find it anywhere. Thanks in advance for your advice. Buzz Burrell "Time flies like an arrow; Bolder Building Fruit flies like a banana". ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 17 21:47:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA06310 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:47:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA15337 for ; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA09165; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA21058 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:38:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA21042; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:37:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA97258; Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:37:44 -0600 Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:37:44 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Cruickshank Cc: "'INTERNET:strawbale@crest.org'" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: RE: Cold Storage In-Reply-To: <199709172023_MC2-20D8-FA22@compuserve.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 74 Further to the below message, some may be interested in our latest modifications to our 1st generation cold closet. This 44 CF is a root cellar on the main floor of our sustainable home. Two motorized dampers with a small reused fan on the lower one. Two reused refrigerator thermostats open the motorized dampers and turn on the fan in either of the following 2 situations: 1) too warm inside the cool closet 2) too hot outside (ie. sun is warming up the east side) It has operated in a manual mode for the past 3 winters with temperatures 3-8 dC for 95% of the time. Last year the fridge was off for 7 months 3 weeks bringing our yearly cost for keeping food cold to $4.50 (cool closet + Vestfrost fridge/freezer).We have not finalized the control of this automatic system yet since we just completed it. _____________________________________________________ PLEASE NOTE NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS (below) _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, John Cruickshank wrote: > The source of the coldness would be a modified refrigeration system, ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 12:39:21 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA14245 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19409 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:34:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA27357; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:35:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA06737 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:31:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emin24.mail.aol.com (emout36.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06696; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:30:32 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emin24.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA14314; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970918122959_-900819296@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: GBlist: UPDATE: the search for window horror stories... Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 75 Greetings green and energy-efficient folk! Thought you might like a brief update on the status of the "window horror stories" search. First, THANKS to EVERYONE that sent materials in. Fortunately for ME but unfortunately for many, there are TOO MANY such real world horror stories about windows and doors and skylights..... and it is obviously an area where some serious education is needed. Here are a few received so far.... ALL worthy of potential list discussion... 1. Label between the glass in an IG unit. (installed, believe it or not....) 2. Patio doors installed upside down (many times) 3. Patio doors installed backward (too many times) 4. "Flying" tilt-in sash during typical wind storms. 5. Shimming nightmares. 6. Expansive foam nightmares..... ALL product types. 7. Duct Tape as flashing material "thousands of uses" 8. Pepsi cans as the "rest of the flashing"... 9. What are these sash reinforced with? Keep those "horror story" cards and letter and e-mails coming!!!! We are trying to make the EEBA conference session on windows as interesting and informative as possible. Please send any more "horror stories" you may have, OR, BETTER YET, COME TO THE EEBA conference and share your experience personally!!!! (We already have some people bringing videos of real world exampes!) November 5-9, 1997 in Denver. Thanks again for all your help to date! Keep sending those pictures and slides and stories (even though they keep me up at night....) ;^) Chris Mathis MCSquared 5249 Columbia Road Columbia, MD 21044 301-596-1931 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 14:09:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15422 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:09:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA16651 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA29044; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09698 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:00:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from afceeb1.brooks.af.mil (afceeb1.brooks.af.mil [140.140.32.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA09693 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:00:57 -0400 (EDT) From: kkivela@afceeb1.brooks.af.mil Received: by afceeb1.brooks.af.mil with VINES-ISMTP; Thu, 18 Sep 97 13:06:23 CDT Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 13:05:58 CDT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Reply-To: Subject: GBlist: fwd: C&D recycling info request X-Incognito-SN: 490 X-Incognito-Version: 4.10.108 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 76 ------------- Original Text From: KAREN KIVELA@EQ@Broo-AFCEE, on 9/17/97 2:18 PM: To: smtp[owner-greenbuilding@crest.org] >>I'm writing a paper and I need to know what the percentage of construction >>wastes goes into landfills nationally. I have searched the web and have >>tried the EPA web-site, but haven't found the numbers I need. Does anyone >>know either the percentages (with references) or where I could go to get this >>information? Any help would be greatly appriciated. >Ah..."I've searched the Web", thus I must have absolutely exhausted the >readily available reference materials on this subject in ANY decent sized >library...whoops, I've spent more than five minutes on this project, time to >start asking around. Frankly, I resent these "please do my research for me" >posts ... Ma'am, weren't you just a little harsh here ? How much trouble would it be for anyone who knows of a reliable information source on C&D recycling, to simply pass it on to this student and to the rest of the list? I also need information about this and would appreciate any knowledgeable responses. There are many estimates floating around, with various degrees of credibility, and frankly I am not sure who to believe. I value the expertise of the readers of this list and hope someone can respond... if it wouldn't be too much trouble. Thank you, Karen Kivela Air Force Center for Environmental Excellence (yes, the AF is trying to be "green" too!) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 14:43:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15803 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:43:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA27527 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:39:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA29701; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:39:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA10640 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:34:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA10633 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:34:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Snyder.Robin@epamail.epa.gov Received: from RTNTEMAIL.RTRT2144.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-8 #22480) with SMTP id <0EGPVIK3U001G2@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:32:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by RTNTEMAIL.RTRT2144.EPA.GOV(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 85256516.00662BDA ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:35:58 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:29:31 -0400 Subject: GBlist: C&D recycling info request To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <85256516.00657BF3.00@RTNTEMAIL.RTRT2144.EPA.GOV> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Lotus-FromDomain: EPA Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 77 Original question: I'm writing a paper and I need to know what the percentage of construction wastes goes into landfills nationally. I have searched the web and have tried the EPA web-site, but haven't found the numbers I need. Does anyone know either the percentages (with references) or where I could go to get this information? Any help would be greatly appriciated. My response: Actually, quite a good question. It turns out that only very spotty records are kept on the fate of C&D wastes. I have tried to find the data, too, and it's just not out there. Or, perhaps I should say that what's out there is not robust enough to withstand analytical scrutiny. EPA's Office of Solid Waste has a study underway to estimate the quantities of C&D wastes generated, we expect the report to be available this Fall. Hope that helps. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 15:27:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA16261 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:27:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA13579 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:23:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA00701; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:23:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA11897 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:19:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from CLEMSON.EDU (mail.clemson.edu [130.127.28.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11893 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.clemson.edu ([206.240.183.38] (may be forged)) by CLEMSON.EDU (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA20281 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:21:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:21:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970918152116.290f0f2e@mail.clemson.edu> X-Sender: cdewitt@mail.clemson.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Craig DeWitt Subject: RE: GBlist: C&D recycling info request Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 78 I have a copy of a report titled "Characterization of Waste Streams in the Three Rivers Solid Waste Authority Study Area [7 counties near] Aiken, South Carolina" that contains some C&D numbers...such as 745,467 tons of waste were generated within the study area in 1996, of which 97,381 tons were C&D waste, of which 30 tons were recycled. If anyone is REAL interested, I can try to get copies made. Contact me off the list. Craig DeWitt SC Energy R&D Center Clemson University ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 16:36:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA17245 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:36:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA06637 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA03039; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA02072 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:28:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA02066 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:28:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.101] (pa-ppp36.hevanet.com [204.119.60.48]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12559 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:30:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19970918152116.290f0f2e@mail.clemson.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: GBlist: Re: C&D recycling info request Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 79 Debbi Allen, magnificent and most exalted queen of C&D waste recovery and recycling, says that only a few solid waste agencies have documented their waste flows. She did the field studies here in Portland. Pepper her with questions at 503-248-4550. For C&D recycling rates for Portland Oregon metropolitan area, contact Metro Solid Waste, Bruce Jacobson, 503-797-1663. Metro's general recycling info line is 503-234-3000. Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 16:36:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA17265 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:36:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA06800 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:32:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA02893; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:28:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA01922 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:23:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout22.mail.aol.com (emout22.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.127]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA01917 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:23:18 -0400 (EDT) From: LOCASKY@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout22.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA01633 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:25:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:25:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970918160953_1528530340@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: roofing materials Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 80 I am looking for a source for a roofing shingle, that is made out of some kind of ruber/vinyl/recycled product. I have heard that it is manufactured in Canada, that it lasts forever and has the appearance of slate. Thanks to all for the information. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 18:58:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA18804 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA15421 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:53:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA06054; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:54:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA06356 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:49:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA06352 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:49:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA136444; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:49:08 -0600 Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:49:08 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: LOCASKY@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: polyslate In-Reply-To: <970918160953_1528530340@emout18.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 81 Dear?: the above is (was) available from Rubin Marketing: Allan Rubin phone: (416) 474-1933. Environmentally-sound composite.Perhaps you can update the rest of us once you have investigated this potential lead. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 LOCASKY@aol.com wrote: > > I am looking for a source for a roofing shingle, that is made out of some > kind of ruber/vinyl/recycled product. I have heard that it is manufactured > in Canada, that it lasts forever and has the appearance of slate. Thanks to > all for the information. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 19:19:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA19094 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:19:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA20562 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:15:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA06536; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:15:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA07051 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:10:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA07047 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 19:10:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.244.199] (1Cust71.max3.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.244.199]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA22426 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 16:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709182312.QAA22426@norway.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: roofing materials Date: Thu, 18 Sep 97 16:11:34 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 82 >I am looking for a source for a roofing shingle, that is made out of some >kind of ruber/vinyl/recycled product. I have heard that it is manufactured >in Canada, that it lasts forever and has the appearance of slate. Thanks to >all for the information. REDI (www.oikos.com/redi) lists quite a few different kinds of roofing. Here are a couple of those that might fit your question: Manner Value Plastic 1150 Applewood Dr Papillion, NE 68046-5786 tel: 402-596-9955 fax: 402-596-9973 Re-New Wood, Inc. PO Box 1093 Wagoner, OK 74467 tel: 918-485-5803 tel: 800-420-7576 fax: 918-485-1097 A link to more info appears with this company. I suggest you start your search under "Thermal and Moisture Protection." That will show you several promising product categories and should lead you to several more companies that may be appropriate. Bruce ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 20:16:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA19566 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA03273 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:12:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA07960; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:12:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA08344 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:08:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pathway1.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [204.191.122.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA08340 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:08:25 -0400 (EDT) From: timex@pathcom.com Received: from ts18l15.pathcom.com (ts18l15.pathcom.com [209.112.17.114]) by pathway1.pathcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA09228 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:10:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709190010.UAA09228@pathway1.pathcom.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 20:06:58 +0000 Subject: RE: GBlist: C&D recycling info request Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com In-reply-to: <2.2.16.19970918152116.290f0f2e@mail.clemson.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 83 I had contacted Priestly, one of the biggest 'deconstruction' outfits in the Toronto area a while ago because they were doing a huge building across the street from where I work, and they swear they recycle or resell 98% of everything they take out. Marilyn http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Keep on keepin' on. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 18 23:21:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA22660 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:21:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA26808 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA11200; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:17:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA12570 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:10:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout02.mail.aol.com (emout02.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.93]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12565 for ; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:10:40 -0400 (EDT) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id XAA28417 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 23:13:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970918231154_1763520916@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: roofing materials Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 84 In a message dated 9/18/97 2:24:16 PM, you wrote: >I am looking for a source for a roofing shingle, that is made out of some >kind of rubber/vinyl/recycled product. I have heard that it is manufactured >in Canada, that it lasts forever and has the appearance of slate. Thanks to >all for the information. >____________________ Try Majestic Skyline, Inc., P.O. Box 11, Station B, Ottawa, ON K1P 6C3, Canada, phone: 613-722-4548, Fax: 613-722-5548. They make rubber roofing cast to look like slate, made from recycled post industrial rubber. Product has a 50 year life and weighs approximately the same as asphalt roofing. The thickness is approx. 3/16 in. at the exposed end. Colors range from black to all shades of gray. The price ranges from $240 - $270/ square depending on the slope. For a slope less than 6:12, it needs 6 in. exposure and 200 tiles a square. For a greater slope, it needs 7 in. exposure at 174 tiles per square. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant IAQKibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 19 07:11:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA25495 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:11:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA17069 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA19438; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:07:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA18026 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:01:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.vineyard.net (ns2.vineyard.net [204.17.195.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA18022 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:01:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mail.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id HAA26324 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:03:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from csy2.vineyard.net(199.232.92.62) by mail.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma026314; Fri Sep 19 07:03:24 1997 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:06:46 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Roofing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 85 In response to the following query: >I am looking for a source for a roofing shingle, that is made out of some >kind of ruber/vinyl/recycled product. I have heard that it is manufactured >in Canada, that it lasts forever and has the appearance of slate. Thanks to >all for the information Crowe Industries, Hamilton, Ontario, (905) 529 - 6818, makes a product called "Authentic Roof" which is a non-authentic slate-like shingle. It is made from waste polymers and rubber, primarily from tires and debris from diaper manufacturing. We've used it successfully. It comes with a 50 year warranty and a list price of $350. per square. Not cheap, but it installs easily. Nice product. It looks uncannily like slate, except that at present there is only one pattern, so if you look at a single tile you're amazed at the resemblance, but if you look at a whole roof the lack of variegation makes it look like something else. They say that soon they'll have eight moulds instead of one - this will be a big improvement. They're also working to increase flame retardancy. Good luck - John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 19 08:07:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA25891 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:07:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA29985 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA19859; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:57:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA18528 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:53:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA18519 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:53:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.17.128] (pm0a28.bf.sover.net [204.71.17.128]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA11426; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:55:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 07:55:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970918160953_1528530340@emout18.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: LOCASKY@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: roofing materials Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 86 Last year Environmental Building News reviewed a product along these lines called the Eco-shake from Renew Wood, Inc. of Wagoner, OK. It's made of wood fiber and recycled PVC from garden-hose manufacturer--both post-industrial. It is heavily textured to look like a wood shake. PHone numbers: 800/485-5803, 918/485-5803 Nadav Malin At 4:25 PM -0400 9/18/97, LOCASKY@aol.com wrote: >I am looking for a source for a roofing shingle, that is made out of some >kind of ruber/vinyl/recycled product. I have heard that it is manufactured >in Canada, that it lasts forever and has the appearance of slate. Thanks to >all for the information. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 19 10:20:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27667 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27872 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:15:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA21622; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:14:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21147 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:10:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA21142 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:10:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA95666; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:09:32 -0600 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:09:32 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: recycled Roofing In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 87 Can any of these splendid roofing materials be used for rainwater collection for household use? This may be a serious limiting factor, since all our roofs must be able to do this in an uncontaminated manner. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 19 13:24:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA01118 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:24:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA18907 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:19:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA25732; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA25389 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:14:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA25385 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.142.229.23] (mke-1-7.binc.net [208.142.229.23]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA102976 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 12:16:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199709191716.MAA102976@glacier.binc.net> Subject: GBlist: reidential water usage Date: Fri, 19 Sep 97 11:24:58 -0000 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 88 Anyone know the average per household water usage per day in the U.S.? Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 19 14:55:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA02437 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:55:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA20031 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:51:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA27489; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:48:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA28277 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:42:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [205.252.116.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA28273 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:42:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from PreinstalledCom (bsd-as2s28.erols.com [207.172.240.91]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA09143 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709191845.OAA09143@smtp1.erols.com> X-Sender: usbt@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Joseph Charlson Subject: GBlist: Questions on concrete sealant & vapor barriers for a below grade living space Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 89 Questions on concrete sealant & vapor barriers for a below grade living space: I have an unfinished basement that I'm finishing in the Boston area. The structure is all uninsulated cast concrete. Its approximately 5 feet below grade and 2.5 feet above grade. There doesn't appear to be any foundation drainage. The dehumidifier removes approx. 7 gallons of water a day right now. I expect the humidity to increase once we start occupying the space. My current plan is to tape and seal 6 mil polyethylene across all walls and the floor slab. On the walls I was going to use R13 un-faced batts except for the above grade portion where I can fit R19. This will be air sealed from the interior with drywall. I know the general rule is to put the vapor barrier (poly of Kraft) on the warm side in heating climates but I think I should put it on the concrete foundation b/c of all the water that's currently diffusing through the walls and floor. Does anyone think this is especially bad b/c of the 6-7 month heating situation in Boston? Also can anyone comment on the benefits or any potential health risks of applying a concrete water sealant (like Olympic or other commercial products) to the interior surfaces of the concrete? If this stuff really works and isn't going to off gass nasty chemicals into the living space, then I would either move the polyethylene layer to the interior behind the drywall OR use Kraft faced batts on the interior and no polyethylene at all. I guess the poly or Kraft might help keep out the sealant emissions if it should actually be an issue. Can anyone offer me some good advice? Thanks in advance, Joe Charlson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 19 16:46:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA03650 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:46:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA21552 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA00444; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:40:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA01613 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:36:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.topher.net (mail.topher.net [206.136.138.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA01607 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.topher.net (ppp05.topher.net [206.136.138.164]) by mail.topher.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA02140; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:28:40 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:28:40 -0500 Message-Id: <199709192028.PAA02140@mail.topher.net> X-Sender: ewestbrook@mail.topher.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Chris & Ruth Koehn , greenbuilding@crest.org From: ewestbrook Subject: Re: GBlist: residential water usage Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 90 Chris Koehn asked: >Anyone know the average per household water usage per day in the U.S.? > The following data comes from a water and wastewater engineering course I took back in 1992; I don't know if the numbers have changed much since then, and I don't know what the professor's published source was. USA average: 60-100 gpcd for residential use, total of 166 gpcd (gallons per capita per day) including commercial, industrial, public use, and system losses (i.e., leaks) Other municipal averages, total consumption: Dallas 161 gpcd Houston 250 gpcd LA 181 Tulsa 157 Other countries: U.K. 71 gpcd Japan (Tokyo) 77 W. Germany 46 Switzerland 107 Egypt 26 Pakistan 19 India 14 Spain 44 Makes you think we could be using a *lot* less, doesn't it? The minimum required to support life is 1-1.5 gpcd. In the U.S., residential use breaks down like this: toilets 41% washing 37% kitchen 11% laundry 4% cleaning 3% lawns 3% car washing 1% Those figures are national averages. I promise, in the fancy suburb nearest us (Plano, Texas), summertime water use is much more than 3% -- probably a lot more%. The average water use there is 15,000 gallons per month per household (annualized). That's about 125 gpcd, assuming a four-person family and a 30-day month. At our house, with low-flow fixtures (but 1.6 gpf toilets) and 1600-gallon cistern for landscape water, we use an average of 33.3 gpcd. And we don't even have a very efficient washing machine, sorry to say! Hope this helps! ---Elena Westbrook, ELS WordWright Communications EWestbrook@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 19 19:57:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA07283 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA09656 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:53:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA04240; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA05829 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:48:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA05825 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 19:48:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA15014; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:50:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from sba-ca1-25.ix.netcom.com(204.32.201.57) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma014297; Fri Sep 19 18:46:55 1997 Message-ID: <3422ADC9.2F11@ix.netcom.com> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:52:34 +0000 From: Richard Dean Reply-To: e2wt@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0-C-NC320 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris & Ruth Koehn CC: GB List Subject: Re: GBlist: reidential water usage References: <199709191716.MAA102976@glacier.binc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 91 > Anyone know the average per household water usage per day in the U.S.? > > Chris Koehn > Top Ridge > ______ I found a number close to your question. 90 gallons/day/person in an urban environment. Source: Local newspaper. I don't know what an average household is though, 2.4 ? -- Richard Dean E2WT Services Energy, Environmental, & Water Treatment Specialists 6440 W Camino Cielo Santa Barbara, CA 93105 (805) 967-2141 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 19 21:01:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA07806 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 21:01:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA23107 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:56:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA05119; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA06785 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:52:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA06779 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:52:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (dial-27-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.27]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA06858; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:54:51 -0400 Message-ID: <34231EBC.511@together.net> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 20:54:20 -0400 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris & Ruth Koehn , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: residential water usage Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 92 Chris & Ruth Koehn: Some notes on my houshold water consumption, for your information. Recently, I looked at my water bills. My average daily consumption is a tad more than 80 gallons per day. I live in a 1.5 story 45 year old cape in Northern Vermont. I live alone, no kids, in suburbia. Most of the plumbing fixtures are circa 1950, and use water accordingly. Only my 2.0 gpm shower head approaches modern efficiency. When my x lived here, the average was 90 to 100 gallons per day. The poor overall water efficiency of my home also extends to the thermal envelope with 1.5 inches of fiberglass wall batts, old monster cast iron coal furnace uograded to nat gas with retrofit blower, operates at 50% efficiency, on good days. I work as a self employed HVAC design/commissioning consultant with a strong record in design of high performance HVAC systems. That explains the dismal person efficiency standards, conforming to the old rule about plumbers having leaky faucets. Tom Anderson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 20 00:06:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA09160 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:06:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA05346 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:01:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA07385; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:02:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA09415 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:57:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA09411 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ip16.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.35]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA152; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:06:10 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970919235955.00718f54@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:59:55 -0400 To: Chris & Ruth Koehn , "GB List" From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: reidential water usage In-Reply-To: <199709191716.MAA102976@glacier.binc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 93 Chris: One reference worth examining is EPA's Exposure Factors Handbook. Check their website (http://www.epa.gov/ORD/WebPubs/exposure/) for a PDF edition. I'm one of the authors of that section covering residential parameters (either 16 or 17, if memory serves), and water usage is covered in fair detail (Charlie Wilkes did a pretty intensive summary of the literature up to 1996). There's even a breakdown by water use appliance. My copy isn't handy (natch), so I can't confirm the chapter number. The document, by the way, is still in draft status (pending response to Science Advisory Board comments), but these numbers are unlikely to change. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 20 05:16:54 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA11805 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA24988 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:12:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA09808; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:13:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id FAA12445 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:08:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA12441 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 05:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([194.168.100.102]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 549-35819U10000L100S0) with ESMTP id AAA17378 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:19:51 +0100 Message-ID: <342393F0.D8A46F8E@which.net> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:14:26 +0100 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: reidential water usage X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199709191716.MAA102976@glacier.binc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 94 Here's a link to try: http://www.ae.iastate.edu/HTMDOCS/pm1089.htm Malcolm Scott Chris & Ruth Koehn wrote: > Anyone know the average per household water usage per day in the U.S.? > > Chris Koehn > Top Ridge > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 20 09:49:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA14882 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA06834 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:45:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA11082; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:44:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA14204 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:38:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA14200 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.105] (pm0a5.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.105]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA27180; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 09:41:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199709191716.MAA102976@glacier.binc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Chris & Ruth Koehn From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: reidential water usage Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 95 Chris Koen inquired about the average water use per day in the U.S. The U.S. Geological Survey is the primary U.S. agency that tracks water consumption, and their most recent data is from 1990. During that year, the average water consumption by people with their own wells was 79 gallons per capita per day (gpcd). Average consumption by people on public water supplies was 105 gpcd. However, there are significant differences in different parts of the country. For details, check out USGS statistics on-line: http://h2o.usgs.gov. Roughly half of the domestic water in the U.S. comes from aquifers; half from surface waters. BTW, our current issue of Environmental Building News has a feature article on water conservation. Give our office a call or e-mail us if you would like us to send you a copy as a free sample issue. Alex Wilson, Editor & Publisher Environmental Building News 802/257-7300 or ebn@ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 20 10:14:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA15737 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:14:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA11135 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:10:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA11347; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:07:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA14471 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:03:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.2.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA14466 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:03:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [199.174.138.74] (ad11-074.compuserve.com [199.174.138.74]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA15019 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 07:05:37 -0700 Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 07:05:37 -0700 Message-Id: <199709201405.HAA15019@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: C&D waste issues (R. Snyder post) To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 96 -----------C&D waste issues-------------------- >Snip from post GB (digest #392 -- 19 Sept. 1997) ------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:29:31 -0400 From: Snyder.Robin@epamail.epa.gov Subject: GBlist: C&D recycling info request Original question: I'm writing a paper and I need to know what the percentage of construction wastes goes into landfills nationally. I have searched the web and have tried the EPA web-site, but haven't found the numbers I need. Does anyone know either the percentages (with references) or where I could go to get this information? Any help would be greatly appreciated. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bion Howard response: RS- check with Peter Yost at the NAHB Research Center, (301) 249-4000 (local call from Judiciary Square or Waterside Mall...) who has done considerable study in this area. C&D waste resource reduction is an area every builder can and should take steps to implement now. Every green building conference has some sessions on this, and papers exist on the topic as well. ......................................................................... BTW, RC is funded to do a green building manual (yes another green building manual, thank goodness...) by EPA !! The program is funded in support of national green-home marketing program sponsored by NAHB -- the same group that brought U.S. a nationwide effort to repeal local adoption and enforcement of the Model Energy Code !! NAHB going green is more about the color of money (personal rant here) and helping put down "needless regulation that hurts the industry..." as opposed to real reform in the environmental impacts of development. It stands to __ builders themselves__ to learn about and implement their own green building "standards," since powerful political forces including NAHB, the lumber industry, and others are delaying promulgation of new voluntary standards in order to buy time for existing products to complete market cycles, and since many consultant studies predictably show that competing and quite dissimilar products are "greener than driven pine- needles..." While developing this program, the Research Center is also participating (well, sort of) in the development of ASTM standard guidelines for residential green buildings. To their credit the C&D resource analysis work they have done is of a unique and high-quality nature. There are several published reports on this topic too, but P. Yost will have to help here since there has been a glut of green building "information" that is quite a lot like solar in the mid-to-late 1970's. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! --Legal Notice to be attached to all re-postings of this writing -- Note: comments contained here are the personal opinion of Bion Howard and do not reflect the opinions of any entity hosted on or linked to the "Howard Associates" web-site, and are not to be quoted outside the "Green Building" list, managed by Oikos and EBN. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ---------------< Contact Information >----------------- Mr. Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, Maryland 20773 USA bdhoward@ix.netcom.com <--> http://www.nrg-builder.com Voice# 410-867-8000 fax# 301-889-0889 ------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 20 11:45:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA17444 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:45:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27767 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA12030; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:41:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA15576 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:37:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout21.mail.aol.com (emout21.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.126]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA15572 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:37:11 -0400 (EDT) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout21.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA19317 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970920111655_-263415696@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: reidential water usage Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 97 Not sure if htis is helpful, though I learened recently the GPCD for Tucson is 110..... and this is supposedly reflecting a more miserly usage than national averages. I will speak with the folks at the Environmental Research Laboratory here when I see them today. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 20 12:05:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA17709 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:05:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA01464 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:01:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA12238; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:01:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA15797 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:56:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA15792 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 11:56:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA06304; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:56:26 -0700 Message-ID: <3423F18D.A136ECFF@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:53:49 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Charlson CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Questions on concrete sealant & vapor barriers for a below grade living space X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199709191845.OAA09143@smtp1.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 98 Joseph Charlson wrote: > > Questions on concrete sealant & vapor barriers for a below grade > living space: > > I have an unfinished basement that I'm finishing in the Boston area. > The > structure is all uninsulated cast concrete. Its approximately 5 feet > below > grade and 2.5 feet above grade. There doesn't appear to be any > foundation > drainage. Hi Joseph You should check a few things before finishing a basement i.e. height of water table and exterior drainage meaning not just if there is perimeter drainage but also where the gutters drain, if the land slopes toward the basement, etc. Look for signs of flooding or areas of excessive dampness in the basement itself. Insurance companies don't always cover damage from flooding. Exterior damp or waterproofing and drainage is really the best option (but not that useful if there is hydrostatic pressure from high water table). If it is not possible to do the exterior work interior waterproofing can be done with cementious products such as Zypec (discussed earlier check archives for address). Other concrete waterproofers (such as the Olympia you mentioned) use percentages of silicone for waterproofing. Most use a solvent base but there are friendly alternatives - one is called Enviroseal by Thoro which is a water based silicone top sealer and is quite effective. These products are generally used to provide a clear coating on cement or stucco where you want to preserve the appearance of the concrete. Use the cementious product if you can as it has more integrity for its purpose. I would not use fiberglass insulation as its effectiveness is compromised by any moisture (in other words useless). Foam (EPS) in higher densities would both insulate more effectively and provide the moisture barrier. You could use a foamed adhesive such as enerbond to attach the panels to the concrete and the drywall to the foam (no wood involved - fewer materials for mold growth etc. Finished basements such as you describe are not the healthiest places and do not work well with conventional finishing materials (potential for mold growth etc.) If I was to create specifications for finishing that area I would: - excavate perimeter to footing - slope the footing (applying mortar or cement) - apply zypec to 8" above grade - drain rock and perimeter drainage at footing (do not tie gutter drains into perimeter drainage) - apply foam insulation boards against exterior foundation walls from 2' below grade to top of foundation wall (you can use stucco or zypec over the foam) - use drainage board or backfill with gravel/sand - create a free draining path area around the house rather than plantings INTERIOR SPECIFICATIONS: the interior should now be dry and insulated - drywall can be directly laminated to the conc. walls but it would be preferable to avoid paper faced and gypsum products - cleaning and smoothing the exist conc. or going to a smooth stucco finish might be preferable. - flooring (if you need to install an additional heat source you might want to think of running radiant floor tubing to take advantage of the existing mass and pour a 1.5" slab over and either colouring the conc. or installing tile, etc. Sorry if this is more info than you wanted but it struck me that the system you were describing was not taking advantage of or working to improve what you already have. Its generally been my opinion that a healthy house is not just a question of using the least dangerous materials but more of balancing the inherent properties of materials - so that they work together, e.g.. taking advantage of the fact that the area is already ground insulated so insulating only the exterior portion above grade, using the mass as a heat sink, improving the existing mold resistant walls rather than adding a new, potentially contaminating layer, etc. Better stop now. Good luck John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 20 13:16:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA18172 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:16:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA16939 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA13100; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA16912 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:03:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m20.boston.juno.com (m20.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.190]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA16908 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:03:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bandjf@juno.com) by m20.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NhN11000; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:04:32 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: RE: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace Message-ID: <19970920.125737.7503.0.BANDJF@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-4,6-7,9,11-13,15-16,19-22,25-27 From: bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 13:04:32 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 99 Hi- I'm new to this list, but due to the nature of my problems, have been referred here by others belonging to MCS lists I have Chemical Sensitivity, and would greatly appreciate some suggestions on making our attic/ crawlspace less unhealthy for me. In this crawlspace is the old insulation- a ground up paper type of blown in insulation. I have been advised to have it removed, and replaced with something that is a "safer" alternative for myself- with my condition. Does anyone know of any fairly "safe" way of getting the old insulation out of there and are their companies that do this kind of work? Also, any suggestions on what type of insulation that has had some success with people with chemical sensitivities, that we can use in that attic.. Just to note, we are living in a warm moist climate. Being so chemically sensitive, makes this situation imperative to deal with. I am limited to the things that can be done while I'm living in the home. Any help in this area would be greatly appreciated. Thanks- Beth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 10:17:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA04249 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA19210 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA02679; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:13:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA03735 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:05:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA03693 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.67.59 (pm1-27.hoosier.net [206.106.67.59]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA14196; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:06:48 -0500 Message-ID: <34252985.4E5C@bloomington.in.us> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:04:54 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: J FESCO CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace References: <19970920.125737.7503.0.BANDJF@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 100 Insulation is only a problem if it migrates from where it is located (inside building cavities such as walls and attics, and crawl spaces) to where people are located (the living space). There are a variety of ways that such migration takes place. A low-tox insulation (such as AirKrete) can be quite costly, so I usually recommend preventing the insulation from getting into the living space. The thinking is this: if the insulation stays out of the living space, you aren't exposed, so it can't affect you. In new construction, you can build a very tight house (don't forget mechanical ventilation), and the insulation, no matter what kind it is, can't get into the living space. I've done this several times with sensitive people with great success, even using insulation that would be bothersome if a sensitive person is exposed directly. In existing houses, you are limited as to how tight you can make a house simply because you can't get to all the leakage points. Yes, you can often tighten a great deal, but you just can't get an existing house as tight as one you are building from scratch and tightening as you put it together. My suggestion in your situation is this: use a fan to blow air from the outdoors into the living space to pressurize the house. That way, air will enter the living space via the fan, then it will leak out through the structure, through building cavities, and toward the outdoors. Thus there will be no air (or pollutants) traveling from the insulation-filled cavities into the living space, the air will be moving in the opposite direction. Please be advised that I would not make this same recommendation in a cold climate. You said you lived in a warm, moist climate. Pressurization in a cold climate can lead to hidden moisture problems. For more information see my book Understanding Ventilation. Having said all that, in the majority of cases, sensitive people are bothered by materials that are actually within the living space. Things such as carpet, cabinets, wall paneling, furnishings, cleaning products, etc., are more often the problem than someting going on in a building cavity. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 10:22:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA04265 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:22:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA20316 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:18:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA03574; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:17:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA05248 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:11:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from usr04.primenet.com (usr04.primenet.com [206.165.6.204]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05237 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from primenet.com (root@mailhost02.primenet.com [206.165.5.53]) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA29144 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 07:13:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from preinstalledcom (ip202.prc.primenet.com [207.218.17.202]) by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA02426 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 07:14:02 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <34252B88.3046@primenet.com> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 07:13:28 -0700 From: John Reply-To: jonwil@primenet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: ifo Cascade toilet References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 101 Does anyone use this type of 1.6 gal flush toilet-what do you think? And where can one get one (a few)? Thanks in advance, John Wilson Prescott, AZ. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 10:39:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA04323 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:39:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA23924 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:34:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA06527; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA08203 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:24:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ns.waymark.net (ns.waymark.net [207.18.144.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA08173 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:24:19 -0400 (EDT) From: kahless@ns.waymark.net Received: from [207.18.145.80] (dalmax1-80.waymark.net [207.18.145.80]) by ns.waymark.net (8.8.7/8.6.11) with ESMTP id JAA02584 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:24:03 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: kahless@mail.waymark.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:10:45 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Roof ventilation - soffit vents Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 102 I've got a bit of a problem - maybe someone on this list can help. I have a new roof with composition shingles and properly installed ridge vents. Long story short, roofer claimed experience with the venting system. 5 months later, he has finally got them installed correctly. He's gone and I'm trying to get additional soffit ventng. Looks like I'll either be doing the sofit vents myself or having someone work from detailed instructions. I understand the concept and know I need much more soffit venting than I have now. Problem is finding a suitable product to install. I'd like to have continuous venting, but can only find a product that is about 2" wide. This doesn't seem wide enough and involves cutting into the soffit. I'd like to replace the entire soffit with a continuous vent. Has anyone done this or even heard of it? I'm being told this can't be done/is a bad idea. Samantha kahless@waymark.net P.S. I'm in a rural area north of Dallas, Texas. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 11:16:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04571 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA01350 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA16795; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:11:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA18542 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:04:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA18493 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:04:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA121482; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:03:52 -0600 Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:03:52 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: low flush toilets In-Reply-To: <34252B88.3046@primenet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 103 John: Most US suppliers make 1.5 gal. toilets. But why bother? I would investigate the use of the Sealand .6 Litres (1 pint) ultra-low flush toilet instead, available directly from Sealand or any RV dealer? This may be appropriate for your application. All toilets have pros and cons. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Sun, 21 Sep 1997, John wrote: > > Does anyone use this type of 1.6 gal flush toilet-what do you think? And > where can one get one (a few)? > > Thanks in advance, > John Wilson > Prescott, AZ. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 12:03:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA04813 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA12913 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA19766; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA21399 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:38:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from sweden.it.earthlink.net (sweden-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA21394 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:38:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.244.160] (1Cust32.max3.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.244.160]) by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA01248 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 08:40:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709211540.IAA01248@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: ifo Cascade toilet Date: Sun, 21 Sep 97 08:39:35 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 104 John We installed three Kohler low flush models rated at 1.6 gallons when we built our house 5 years ago. In that time I've used the plunger _once_. We have two young girls who tend to use more paper than necessary. But that doesn't seem to be a problem. Despite the whining of some members of Congress on this issue, my experience shows the 1.6 gallon flushers to be quite effective. BTW, REDI (www.oikos.com/redi) lists companies that make low flush toilets rated at 1.6 gallons or under. Bruce S. >Does anyone use this type of 1.6 gal flush toilet-what do you think? And >where can one get one (a few)? > >Thanks in advance, >John Wilson >Prescott, AZ. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 13:29:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA05338 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA05215 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA10554; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08325 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:13:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA08282 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from itjfvkli ([207.146.44.67]) by mtigwc03.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with ESMTP id AAB19577 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 17:16:01 +0000 From: "Mary McDaniel" To: Subject: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:47:11 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19970921171557.AAB19577@itjfvkli> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 105 Does anyone have references or information on how to outgas a new 10 story office building by heating it up to outgas or any other methods? I remember reading something about heat to outgas, but I can't find the reference. My husband is moving into this building next year and we were talking about ways to minimize sick building problems since the builder did not do any greenbuilding techniques to our knowledge. Hopefully, greenbuilding practices will be the "norm" in the future instead of the exception! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 13:34:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA05366 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06479 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA11158; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:28:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA09640 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:23:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from brickbat8.mindspring.com (brickbat8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA09624 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frazer (ip128.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.128]) by brickbat8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA01765; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970921172348.006e451c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:23:48 -0400 To: kahless@ns.waymark.net, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Roof ventilation - soffit vents Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 106 While the general rule for roof venting is equal areas in & out, air is pretty dumb and goes where it wants. You might what to have some pressure measurements done to assure that the ridge vent is not pulling conditioned from the house itself. You might find a local building performance contractor from the web site listed below or email me if you have no luck. Round vents are available from most insulation supply houses (J&R 800/343-4446, EFI 876-0660). best, -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 13:36:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA05377 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA07057 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:31:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA11239; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:29:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA09639 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:23:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from brickbat8.mindspring.com (brickbat8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA09621 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frazer (ip128.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.128]) by brickbat8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA01756; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:25:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970921172347.006efcd8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 13:23:47 -0400 To: jonwil@primenet.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: ifo Cascade toilet Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 107 I have had two IFO Casades in my house for over a decade, they were bought from Resource Technology in Baltimore. I haven't heard from them in while, so I'm not sure they are still around. Let me know if you find a viable source. best, -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 20:32:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA09223 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA12717 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:27:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA11029; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA08771 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:22:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA08767 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:22:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ip20.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.39]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA145 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:31:46 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19970921202546.0071b40c@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:25:46 -0400 To: From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? In-Reply-To: <19970921171557.AAB19577@itjfvkli> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 108 At 12:47 PM 9/21/97 -0500, Mary McDaniel wrote: >Does anyone have references or information on how to outgas a new 10 story >office building by heating it up to outgas or any other methods? Mary: One publication that comes to mind is a paper by John Girman that was published in Environment International (vol. 15, pages 449-453, 1989). There have been other things published since then. EPA may have something in the form of general guidance by now, and you should take a look at the proceedings of the big indoor air conference that's held every three years. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 21:42:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA09725 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA26364 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA02260; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:34:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA29133 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:29:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA29108 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.142.229.23] (mke-1-7.binc.net [208.142.229.23]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA94928 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:31:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199709220131.UAA94928@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: ifo Cascade toilet Date: Sun, 21 Sep 97 19:39:54 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 109 We've had two Ifo Cascades in our home for 7 years. They work fine, but do require slightly more cleaning. More, ahem, how shall we say... skid marks? My plumber tells me the Ifo patent was purchased a few years ago by Mansfield, which is now owned by Kohler. I'm not so sure, as I have seen ads for Ifo since. Good 1.6 gal toilets are available from any plumbing supply co, since they are pretty much the law now. Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 22:38:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA14064 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:38:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA09109 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA21414; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:31:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA18257 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:25:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA18144 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 22:25:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA23285; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:25:01 -0700 Message-ID: <3425D65E.A7213A4@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 19:22:22 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mary McDaniel CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <19970921171557.AAB19577@itjfvkli> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 110 Mary McDaniel wrote: > > Does anyone have references or information on how to outgas a new 10 > story > office building by heating it up to outgas or any other methods? If your concerns are personal then I would suggest that your approach concentrate on that aspect i.e. boosting immunology, developing a work strategy that limits exposure (fresh air breaks, come in late monday mornings after the air system has been labouring for a while, etc.) You can also refine exposure in a personal work space by identifying air sources and creating additional filtration and conditioning. Pressurizing the space, etc. Building intensive efforts such as high heat could exacerbate the problem by destabilizing certain materials. Sounds risky. If your concern is with everyone working in the building (10 stories is a lot of occupants) then start now by working with the buildings designers to identify pollutant sources, potentials for exposure and exposure levels, air system design, etc., and start working to improve those conditions. Air system design is probably the most crucial aspect. Remember that simple things like initial exposure to a new computer system on a desk will probably far exceed any additional contaminants from the building and unless there is some air system that can be accelerated, very little can be done. Remember also that because a practice is labeled green it does not mean that it is acceptable. We recently had delivery of a european manuf. couch that is a labeled green and far exceeded any american standards - it instantly produced the full range of allergic reactions in two kids, two adults, one dog and one cat and only the cat is comfortable on it 3 weeks later and only out of desperation. Best John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 21 23:59:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA14802 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:59:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA25591 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:55:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA20112; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:54:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA16321 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:48:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout21.mail.aol.com (emout21.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.126]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA16276 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:48:39 -0400 (EDT) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout21.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id XAA06976 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:51:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:51:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970921234934_576324327@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 111 In a message dated 9/21/97 10:20:01 AM, marmac1@worldnet.att.net wrote: >Does anyone have references or information on how to outgas a new 10 story >office building by heating it up to outgas or any other methods? Snip............................ I agree with John Salmen that there are dangers associated with heating up all the materials in a new building for the purposes of accelerating offgassing. You are unable to control synergistic chemical reactions, structural and other damage. John Girman's studies and others have shown that the type of "baking out" you are talking about is fraught with complications and problems. To accelerate offgassing, the building materials must be heated to a temperature (85 to 103 degrees F.) beyond their designed capacity and maintained at that temperature for a minimum of 72 hours (longer is more effective). Fresh air ventilation must be maintained simultaneous to the heating in order to exhaust the noxious offgassing. The balance between temperature, fresh air intake and stale air exhaust must be continuously monitored and the entire space must be professionally inspected 24 hours a day during the bakeout period. Windows can crack, drywall nails can pop out, doors can warp, adhesives can break down, laminates can separate, electronic or other equipment can be damaged, and warranties can be voided. Worst of all, the released destabilized chemicals and odors may be absorbed in fabrics, acoustic ceilings, or other absorbent surfaces--only to continue offgassing into the rooms for a long time into the future. Far better approach for indoor air quality is: 1- Source reduction. Eliminate as many toxic surfaces and furnishings as possible. 2 - Isolate compromise materials from the indoor space (air barriers, sealers, separate locations). 3 - Provide spot exhaust ventilation for problem equipment, such as computers, copiers, etc. and provide well-designed, controlled ventilation for the building. Utilize high quality filtration to neutralize foul air. As John Salmen said, the ventilation design is a most critical element. 4 - Flush the space with total fresh air, exhausting stale air, for as long as possible before occupancy. 5 - Run the HVAC system (with fresh air component and high quality filtration) for a period of time each day before occupying space. Maintain positive pressure in rooms. Monitor conditions and occupant health. 6 - If possible, provide operable windows for individual occupants. By the way, this is not an analysis or a prescription--it is just what comes to mind as a quick response to the query above. I think it is important to think very carefully before jumping to conclusions about the best "fix" for such a building. There is plenty of literature for further information. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone/fax: 510-841-1039 email: IAQKibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 00:25:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA15006 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 00:25:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA01100 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 00:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12767; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA09245 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:24:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from usr05.primenet.com (usr05.primenet.com [206.165.6.205]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA09158 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:24:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from primenet.com (root@mailhost02.primenet.com [206.165.5.53]) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA11608; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:26:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from preinstalledcom (ip225.prc.primenet.com [207.218.17.225]) by primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA15079; Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:26:53 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3425E56F.1DE5@primenet.com> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:26:39 -0700 From: John Reply-To: jonwil@primenet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris & Ruth Koehn CC: GB List Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: ifo Cascade toilet References: <199709220131.UAA94928@glacier.binc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 112 Dear Chris, Thanks for the Ifo review. I am aware that there are many makers of 1.6 gal low flush toilets, but the pull from the top system seems to have more flush power then I have seen on other low flush toilets. Do the Kohler low flush have this same mechanism? John Chris & Ruth Koehn wrote: > > We've had two Ifo Cascades in our home for 7 years. They work fine, but > do require slightly more cleaning. More, ahem, how shall we say... skid > marks? > > My plumber tells me the Ifo patent was purchased a few years ago by > Mansfield, which is now owned by Kohler. I'm not so sure, as I have seen > ads for Ifo since. Good 1.6 gal toilets are available from any plumbing > supply co, since they are pretty much the law now. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 02:38:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA16935 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:38:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA22028 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:33:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA04851; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:32:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA29828 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:27:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA29821 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:27:27 -0400 (EDT) From: CrawfordPS@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id CAA05191 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:29:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 02:29:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970922022950_419944601@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Graduate schools offering Sustainable Design studies Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 113 Dear sirs, Could you please let me know how I can find out which architecture schools offer graduate programs in architecture, with an emphasis on Sustainable Design. I have spend hours on the internet, searching all kinds of sites, and have not been able to find any Universities that do serious research in this field. Surely, they have to be out there, I just can't find them. Sincerely, Paul -- email: CrawfordPS@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 09:48:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA20756 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:48:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA29988 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:43:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA12014; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02631 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:29:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA02568 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:29:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.67.46 (pm1-14.hoosier.net [206.106.67.46]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA31138; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:31:10 -0500 Message-ID: <342672AC.52AF@bloomington.in.us> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:29:16 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mary McDaniel CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? References: <19970921171557.AAB19577@itjfvkli> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 114 I've read a number of papers on building bake-outs and feel that it's one of those "too good to be true" approaches. At best, it seems to have a minimal effect, at worst, it causes damage and new IAQ problems. See an article in Science News, Vol. 136 #13 (Sept. 23, 1989), pg. 206. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 11:11:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA21979 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA21941 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA12564; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:05:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01082 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709221453.KAA01082@solstice.crest.org> X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f To: CrawfordPS@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Mark DeKay Subject: GBlist: Graduate schools offering Sustainable Design Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 115 Paul: At Washington University in St. Louis, we offer several courses explicitly focusing on sustainable issues. Several studio faculty are also engaging the topic also. Our website is new this year and growing weekly. Check it out at: http://arch.wustl.edu . Click on "studios and courses" in the navigation bar. You will see a list of courses on the left, including, "Environment and Buildings," "Ecological Building Design Strategies," and "Urban and Landscape Ecology." Wash. U. is a private school, and although our tuitionis high, we offer great financial aid (as US news recently noted), making us "expensive but worth it," and " a great value." If you are looking for a public university, youcan not do better in the field than the University of Oregon. http://www-architecture.uoregon.edu/foyer You also may want to check out the Ecological Design Education Network: http://www.ecodesign.org/edi/eden/index.html regards, Mark DeKay ------------------------------------------ >Dear sirs, > >Could you please let me know how I can find out which architecture schools >offer graduate programs in architecture, with an emphasis on Sustainable >Design. Mark DeKay Assistant Professor of Architecture School of Architecture Washington University One Brookings Drive campus box 1079 St. Louis, MO 63130 USA dekay@arch.wustl.edu Office: 201 Givens Hall 314.935.6282, 314.935.8520 (fax) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 11:25:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA22178 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:24:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA25612 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:20:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA16570; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:17:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA06414 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:11:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA06382 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:11:08 -0400 (EDT) From: healthyp@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA02897 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:13:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:13:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nyc-ny45-21.ix.netcom.com(199.183.41.149) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma002866; Mon Sep 22 10:13:02 1997 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-Id: <1997922111915211478@ix.netcom.com> Subject: GBlist: GB list X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.20, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 116 I just received a phone call from a hospital asking if I knew of any companies that made environmentally safe window treatments. I would really appreciate any information, so that the hospital can finish remodeling in an environmentally safe manner. Thanks in advance. --Robyn Heller EcoSmart Healthy Properties, LLC ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 11:32:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA22280 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27407 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:27:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA12424; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01066 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:53:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA00961 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:53:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.142.229.24] (mke-1-8.binc.net [208.142.229.24]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA84352 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:55:37 -0500 Message-Id: <199709221455.JAA84352@glacier.binc.net> Subject: GBlist: water usage Date: Mon, 22 Sep 97 09:04:11 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 117 Thanks to: Mark DeKay, James.Olivia, Richard Dean, Rob Watson, Elena Westbrook, Tom Anderson, Harry Rector, Jim Rogers, Alex Wilson, A Novelli, & Malcom Scott for their input on the residential water usage question. The General consensus seems to be that- it depends. Where you live seems to matter. Arid regions use more (up to 270 gal/person/day) while those living in Boston, where they have to pay more for their water, use substantially less. The average seems to be somewhere between 80 and 110 gallons per person per day. That's alot of water! Our household averages 100 gallons per day, for two adults and one young child (33 gal ea). Ithought maybe my meter was broke... until I read the Nat'l averages. We use 1.6 gal toilets, low flow shower heads (average 6 showers total per week), and an Asko washer. We don't water our yard at all. We collect rain water for our gardens. Sure seems tough to bring that number down! Chris Koehn ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 14:07:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26113 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA08844 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA06373; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:59:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03315 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:53:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emin16.mail.aol.com (emout31.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA03307 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:53:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Kirbservc@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emin16.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA22975 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:55:56 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:55:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970922135345_-1699541212@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Speaking of toilets Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 118 Speaking of toilets, has anyone had any experience with the Sloan Flushmate? Mike Kirby P.S. I am mainly a lurker but have been here for months and very much enjoy the conversations here! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 14:41:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26549 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:41:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA16879 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:36:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08925; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA05806 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:27:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m20.boston.juno.com (m20.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.190]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA05802 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:27:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bandjf@juno.com) by m20.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id O^O02321; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:29:20 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace Message-ID: <19970922.142245.4567.5.BANDJF@juno.com> References: <19970920.125737.7503.0.BANDJF@juno.com> <34249C29.1E@chelmsford.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-10 From: bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:29:20 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 119 On Sat, 20 Sep 1997 21:01:46 -0700 Jim Rogers writes: >The same companies that install the cellulose insulation (blow it in) >will probably also remove it. If their equipment can vacuum it out it >would be easiest. Let them keep it and maybe they will do it on the >cheap. > Hi Jim- Thanks for the suggestion- Beth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 14:44:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26596 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:44:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA17867 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:39:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09143; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:34:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA05990 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:30:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA05951; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:30:03 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA06184; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970922143058_1889579401@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: GBlist: the other side of scary window stories Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 120 Friends, In my search for window horror stories I have recently been reminded of "downstream" horrors/opportunities that may also arise when window performance decisions are not coupled with appropriate "whole house" perspective. I will share this abbreviated story with the list (the long version will be discussed at the EEBA conference) with the HOPES OF: 1) enlightenment coupled with humor 2) disgust at such "bad moves" 3) eliciting more stories along this line of thinking Regards, Chris Mathis MCSquared My buddy Steve buys a new house in Orlando. Typical single-glazed aluminum windows. Big air conditioner. Calls me up. "Chris, I can't USE half my house! South and west sides are just too hot!" What do I propose? (and remember the value of free advice....) "Hey Steve, do what everyone ELSE in Florida does.... call up the sun control film installer." Steve does. Calls back and says "THANKS. Works great. Windows are a little blue, but now I can use my whole house. And he only charged me $100 a window!" and now for "the rest of the story...." (and some perspective on such decisions) Steve's situation is not unusual. His builder installed $89 windows and about 7 tons of air conditioning (oversized anyway). Steve is happy because (ignorance is bliss) and he can now use his whole home. So, where is the horror story? 1. Steve got to MORTGAGE the $89 window at 7.25 % for 30 years. Complete with all the deductions implied. 2. Steve got to put an additional $100 each on his VISA at between 15% and 24%. Without deductions. 3. Steve's builder could have probably installed a $200 window for the same basic COST to Steve but with potentially dramatic BENEFITS (energy, comfort, UV protection, peak load reduction, glare, reduced temp swings, etc.) 4. Steve's builder installed an air conditioner that is now about 30% to 50% MORE oversized than it was! Which will now (a) short cycle MORE (b) not dehumidify properly (c) have shorter life (d) cost more to operate and (e) be noisier than necessary because of the similarly oversized fans.... 5. Steve gets to do it all again in 5 to 10 years.... (or whatever the life of the sun control film is....) or until his compressor blows up or until he has to replace IT with one more appropriately sized in the first place. Without a "whole house perspective" (by the builder when FIRST constructing and by Steve/me when "fixing") problems like these can arise. As you consider other "window horror stories" I would appreciate any other "whole house-related" ones that you might have. (door and skylight stories are also welcome:) Lesson # 2. All of you out there installing energy efficient windows, upgraded insulation, weatherization and improved HVAC packages, PLEASE look at the big picture. First costs aren't everything.... Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 14:44:25 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26610 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18080 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:39:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09015; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:32:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA05840 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:28:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m20.boston.juno.com (m20.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.190]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA05833 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:28:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bandjf@juno.com) by m20.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id O^N02321; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:29:20 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace Message-ID: <19970922.142244.4567.4.BANDJF@juno.com> References: <19970920.125737.7503.0.BANDJF@juno.com> <34252985.4E5C@bloomington.in.us> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,5-20,36-37,47-67,73-91,96-97,105-106,112-113, 116-125,131-132,139,147-149 From: bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:29:20 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 121 Hi John- I thank you very much for responding to my post. My husband and I spent Sunday afternoon- learning from your book-"The Healthy House', and certainly it answers a lot of questions for us. I do however want to respond to your note to me, as well as go into a bit more detail on why I asked the question in the first place. You wrote: Insulation is only a problem if it migrates from where it is located >(inside building cavities such as walls and attics, and crawl spaces) >to >where people are located (the living space). There are a variety of >ways >that such migration takes place. > >A low-tox insulation (such as AirKrete) can be quite costly, so I >usually recommend preventing the insulation from getting into the >living >space. The thinking is this: if the insulation stays out of the living >space, you aren't exposed, so it can't affect you. This is one of the things that concerns me. I had started noticing a problem when it started getting hot and humid here. The air coming through the ducts (central air- electric)- smelled like a cardboard/ wet paper/ sheetrock, type of smell. At first I thought somehow this "toxic" odor was coming from the garage- because with the garage doors closed, that is how it smells out there. It is an attached garage, Anything like cardboard boxes, or extra clutter has been removed and stored in a shed. There was a fairly new sheetrock wall ( I know) put up in there in the spring to divide the laundry room and air handler room form the rest of the garage. There is a door from the garage to the house where that laundry room is. No work has been done in that room- due to my sensitivities, except for my husband covering over the sheetrock wall with stainless steel- to help rid the area of some of that odor. The door to the house seems well sealed- we worked on that. At first we thought this smell was coming from the garage- but that was just too obvious. We have by the way, a stucco ranch, on a slab. We had a popcorn ceiling in the house that had been scraped off professionally, for other reasons, that I don't want to bother you with. So the ceilings in the house to the touch have a powdery residue, then just the sheetrock. Since I can't paint and live here, that situation remains. I am still trying to figure out alternatives to "sealing in" or protecting myself from that ceiling. We vacuumed the ceiling again, and my symptoms were better. So, many area of concern here. I'm trying to say, I don't know if I am really protected from the attic space, due to the ceiling situation for one, and I wanted to give you a better picture of the situation. In new construction, you can build a very tight house (don't forget >mechanical ventilation), and the insulation, no matter what kind it >is, >can't get into the living space. I've done this several times with >sensitive people with great success, even using insulation that would >be >bothersome if a sensitive person is exposed directly. > >In existing houses, you are limited as to how tight you can make a >house >simply because you can't get to all the leakage points. Yes, you can >often tighten a great deal, but you just can't get an existing house >as >tight as one you are building from scratch and tightening as you put >it >together. We covered around ceiling fans with foil tape, and any openings we could detect in any way. The air handler in the garage seems really tight, and the ductwork is all new metal, that was scrubbed clean of residue, that was done well, and wrapped at the seams with the foil tape. The is no insulation in the system - it's on the outside. I might not be explaining this well, hope it makes sense. >My suggestion in your situation is this: use a fan to blow air from >the >outdoors into the living space to pressurize the house. That way, air >will enter the living space via the fan, then it will leak out through >the structure, through building cavities, and toward the outdoors. >Thus >there will be no air (or pollutants) traveling from the >insulation-filled cavities into the living space, the air will be >moving >in the opposite direction. Please be advised that I would not make >this >same recommendation in a cold climate. You said you lived in a warm, >moist climate. Pressurization in a cold climate can lead to hidden >moisture problems. For more information see my book Understanding >Ventilation. Thank you so much. We did read that and more. We have gotten other advise as well about that fact that an "air-exchanger' would benefit me. You listed in your book 'Heat Recovery Ventilator"- I'm not sure if they are the same thing, but if I am understanding this correctly, they are the same principle. Since we live in a warm moist climate, we need an air exchange that will filter the air and dehumidify it before bringing it into the house. It would also have to be set up to have a manual on/off switch because at times the air is not desirable to bring in- for example- pesticides, or any chemical odors, My understanding is that these units exist, one type that is a separate unit that can be installed in any room, and the other type that can be installed in relation to working in conjunction with the air handler. I really need info on these air exchangers. I don't know anything more on them except one was mentioned to me called a 'Sahara"? . No one seems to know anything more. Is there a web site for locating, getting info on them and investigating them, or some places i could call? I'd really like to get going on this aspect at least- so I can hopefully start feeling better, and get some better quality air in here. In your book I saw the names of companies for the 'Heat Recovery Ventilator', but I don't know if I'm really dealing with the same thing as just an air exchanger. >Having said all that, in the majority of cases, sensitive people are >bothered by materials that are actually within the living space. >Things >such as carpet, cabinets, wall paneling, furnishings, cleaning >products, >etc., are more often the problem than someting going on in a building >cavity. Well, by now you know the ceiling is a problem.- It didn't "seem" to be such an immediate problem until it got hot and humid, and the air coming through the system got that smell. Could be I suppose, that I'm just recirculation this "bad air, and " with a ceiling like this It still doesn't change the fact that we feel the air exchange is necessary for me. I just want to mention, that a 'Pure Air' whole house filtration system was installed to the air handler- and all did seem well until the heat and humidity came. Whatever is happening it over rides the filtration system of the house. I'm sure I am being very inaccurate explaining this situation, but I'm doing the best I can with this. I also believe strongly that this positive' negative air flow is a very important factor as well. My husband and I are very appreciate of being "steered in the right direction" that can be provided for me, so I can feel better, and hopefully have some recovery. I'm supposing also that I need to hire an engineer about measuring this positive/negative air flow. I've taken up too much of your time already, but certainly wanted to respond, hopefully with more accuracy,, and give you a better picture of the situation, and why I asked the question in the first place. Any steering me in the right direction is much appreciate, I'm sure you know. Thanks Again, Beth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 14:45:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26629 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:45:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18382 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:41:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09289; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:39:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA06109 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:34:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA06100 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:34:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA141590; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:22:16 -0600 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:22:16 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: healthyp@ix.netcom.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: environmental windows In-Reply-To: <1997922111915211478@ix.netcom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 122 Robyn: In our applied research on environmental windows we chose wood windows. >From an indoor air quality perspective, we investigated the numerous treatments that such a window undergoes. Using our criteria,one of the most progressive manufacturer is Willmar Windows out of Winnipeg Manitoba in Canada.If interested, please let me know and I can get you contact information. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 healthyp@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > I just received a phone call from a hospital asking if I knew of any companies > that made environmentally safe window treatments. I would really appreciate > any information, so that the hospital can finish remodeling in an > environmentally safe manner. Thanks in advance. > > --Robyn Heller > EcoSmart Healthy Properties, LLC > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 16:07:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA28608 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA08833 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:02:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA11678; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:00:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA08831 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:55:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA08824 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kuts7p04.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA32370; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:57:03 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970922195916.006cfa34@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:59:16 -0500 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 123 Jorg, Who do you think makes the best windows, from the double perspective of energy efficiency and getting your moneys worth? We are working on plans for a small 24'x30' cabin built on a shallow insulated slab with SIPs for walls and roof. The small second floor space is under the roof. I am wrestling with the windows and making a decision about the more expensive Anderson/Pella/Marvin brands versus less expensive Caradco which offer clad frames, low e glass and argon-filled space. The cabin will be heated quite efficiently with wood from our land and will be used only intermittently until we build our 'real' house which will be a super energy efficient passive solar structure. I want to install a large ratio of windows on the west side of the cabin where the forest view is spectacular but feel a bit dumb about doing it since I am also putting up tight SIPs. I read with interest all the window discussions including the information about much better European windows are than are ours or yours (I think). I would be grateful for opinions from you and from others on this list as well. thanks, Sacie Lambertson >Robyn: In our applied research on environmental windows we chose wood windows. >>From an indoor air quality perspective, we investigated the numerous treatments >that such a window undergoes. Using our criteria,one of the most progressive >manufacturer is Willmar Windows out of Winnipeg Manitoba in Canada.If interested, >please let me know and I can get you contact information. >_________________________________________________________ >Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect >- in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. > 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office >ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 >Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm >e-mail: >______________________________________________________ >On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 >healthyp@ix.netcom.com wrote: >> >> I just received a phone call from a hospital asking if I knew of any companies >> that made environmentally safe window treatments. I would really appreciate >> any information, so that the hospital can finish remodeling in an >> environmentally safe manner. Thanks in advance. >> >> --Robyn Heller >> EcoSmart Healthy Properties, LLC >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >> Environmental Building News and Oikos >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 16:54:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA29267 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:54:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA21168 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:49:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA12986; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA10386 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:44:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ns.waonline.com (ns.waonline.com [208.192.52.129]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA10378 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from waonline.com (1Cust29.max3.new-york.ny.ms.uu.net [153.35.1.29]) by ns.waonline.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA12232; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3426D7E4.1D2F818E@waonline.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:41:08 -0400 From: "Warren C. Liebold" Reply-To: wliebold@waonline.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris & Ruth Koehn CC: GB List Subject: Re: GBlist: water usage References: <199709221455.JAA84352@glacier.binc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 124 The American Water Works Association Research Foundation has been conducting an end use metering study of residential water use. Initial results can be found on the WaterWiser web page: http://www.waterwiser.org in the "Books" section. Warren Liebold wliebold@waonline.com -- Warren C. Liebold wliebold@waonline.com wliebold@pppmail.nyser.net Director of Conservation New York City Department of Environmental Protection ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 16:56:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA29291 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:56:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA21648 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:51:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA12800; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:46:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA10269 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:41:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ns.waonline.com (ns.waonline.com [208.192.52.129]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA10263 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:41:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from waonline.com (1Cust29.max3.new-york.ny.ms.uu.net [153.35.1.29]) by ns.waonline.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA12107; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3426D734.E47380D7@waonline.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:38:12 -0400 From: "Warren C. Liebold" Reply-To: wliebold@waonline.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kirbservc@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Speaking of toilets References: <970922135345_-1699541212@emout04.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 125 "Sloan Flushmate" is Sloan Valve's trade name for the internal parts of "pressurized-tank" toilets. Almost all toilet manufacturers have a pressurized-tank model in their line and Sloan manufactures most of the internals. Pressurized-tank toilets are more expensive than gravity-tank models ($200+), have a slightly noisier, but very short flush cycle, and will almost never clog. Their mass clearance performance is better than 3.5 gallon (13 litre) toilets since they maintain a large trapway. IMHO, preferred for light commercial installations and for large familities who have members who either tend to use large amounts of paper, or who are very young and enjoy playing "Power Ranger Action Toys Explore the Undersea World" in the family toilet. Warren Liebold wliebold@waonline.com -- Warren C. Liebold wliebold@waonline.com wliebold@pppmail.nyser.net Director of Conservation New York City Department of Environmental Protection ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 17:14:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA29556 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:14:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA25640 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:09:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA13310; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:09:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA11020 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:04:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc513.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA11014 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:04:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from IEL#u#MAIL-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:08:40 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:08:24 -0400 From: Arnie Katz To: greenbuilding@crest.org, bandjf@juno.com Subject: GBlist: Re: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 126 Given what you've described about your house, I highly recommend finding a competent diagnostician to figure out what's going on. Are the ducts really sealed? Since tape was used, the answer is probably not. Is duct leakage causing negative pressures in the house, causing air (along with contaminants) to be sucked in from the attic and/or garage? How tight is the house? How well sealed is the house from the attic? The Garage? An experienced person with a blower door, a duct blaster, a manometer, and some sense can probably figure out what's actually going on in a few hours, and possibly save you a bunch of money in terms of going down non-productive paths. Occasionally, this person might be an engineer, but experience, training, and having the right tools are much more important. I don't know any house docs in Dallas. Maybe someone else on this list does. Try your local utilities and weatherization program for leads. Arnie Katz Advanced Energy Raleigh, NC ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 18:02:47 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA00016 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA11927 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:58:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA14218; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA12373 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:46:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emin16.mail.aol.com (emout31.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA12369 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:46:58 -0400 (EDT) From: CGrover77@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emin16.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA28751 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970922171747_-1263974935@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Where to find bio-degradable silt fencing? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 127 Does anyone have a source for a bio-degradable silt fence, preferably with wooden stakes attached? Recycled material would be a plus. We need to dredge the sediment pond, to restore it's capability to filter out sediment before the sediment reaches the lake. Need to contain the excavated sediment behind a retaining wall. Seeking wall material that consumes little space and will eventually biodegrade, after plants take over and stabilize the retaining wall into a pond bank. The material should be capable of holding back a two foot depth of excavated sediment. It should also enable us to insert plants through it, into the sediment, so they can take root. Ideally, the material would rot away after 2 years, and not hurt wildlife. I made a test wall using galvanized hog wire (2"X4" openings), and separately .. orange plastic 'tree protection area' fencing, both covered by burlap. Both work, but I'm concerned they won't age well. Any references on how to successfully build a biodegradeable retaining wall would also be appreciated. Thanks, Greg N. Smith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 18:59:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA00635 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA24837 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA15499; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA13990 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:45:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA13983 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:45:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from van-as-07b13.direct.ca [204.174.249.125] by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.70 #1) id 0xDHGi-0007e3-00; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:47:53 -0700 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: GBlist: Questions on concrete sealant & vapor barriers for a below grade living space Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:20:10 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 128 > Joseph Charlson wrote: > > > > Questions on concrete sealant & vapor barriers for a below grade > > living space: > > I agree with John Salmen's comments in reply, but I would offer a couple of alternates, and another point to keep in mind, relating to insulation of the basement. > > If I was to create specifications for finishing that area I would: > - - excavate perimeter to footing > - - slope the footing (applying mortar or cement) > - - apply zypec to 8" above grade Unless there is a major hydrostatic water pressure from gourbnd water, if you opt to excavate on the exterior, then using a drainage material against the foundation wall would probably be easire to use and more efffective than a waterproofing compound such as Xypex. By waterproofing product I mean such as Drainclad (a rigid fibeglass board), PLaton damproofing membrane, or other similar mechanical systems. Check with local suppliers of insulated concrete forming systems for products they use. > - - drain rock and perimeter drainage at footing (do not tie gutter drains > into perimeter drainage) > - - apply foam insulation boards against exterior foundation walls from 2' > below I would strongly suggest that insulation should be applied full depth - wether inside or outside (depending on which is easier related to the specific construction issues). > grade to top of foundation wall (you can use stucco or zypec over the > foam) > - - use drainage board or backfill with gravel/sand > - - create a free draining path area around the house rather than > plantings > INTERIOR SPECIFICATIONS: the interior should now be dry and insulated > - - drywall can be directly laminated to the conc. walls but it would be > preferable to avoid paper faced and gypsum products - cleaning and > smoothing the exist conc. or going to a smooth stucco finish might be > preferable. Again, if fully insulated, the finish can be applied over foam insulation. > - - flooring (if you need to install an additional heat source you might > want to think of running radiant floor tubing to take advantage of the > existing mass and pour a 1.5" slab over and either colouring the conc. > or installing tile, etc. Again, as you are planning to make this a lving space, insulating the floor as well as installing a vapour/moisture barrier is important. Especially if you would consider putting in a radiant heating system, putting insulation under the floor should be considered a must. If headroom permits, you could put 2" rigid styrofoam over the existing floor, then a 2 1/2 to 3" slab that wouyld include radiant heating. > You should keep in mind that a major source of moisture in your basement, especially in the summer, may not necessarily be ground water working it's way inside, but rather outdoor air brought inside. Boston has a very humid summer environment, so the outdoor air brought inside into the cooler environment, such as a basement (especially an uninsulated one) will start to condense, especialy on the cold surfaces (i.e. thiose uninsulated ones in contact weith the ground). By sealing and insulating all the surfaces, you raise the surface temperature, thus reducing one problem element. You'll still have to deal with dehumidification in the summer (due to outdoor air coming inside) but it should be a smaller problem. And of course, you get a chance to have more useable living space year round. **************************************************************************** ********************* Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seynmour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice **************************************************************************** ******************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 19:23:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01613 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:23:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA00125 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:18:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA16015; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:11:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA14563 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:06:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA14559 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:06:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA22320; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:06:15 -0700 Message-ID: <3426F944.2E04E76F@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:03:32 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Kadulski , Joseph Charlson CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Questions on concrete sealant & vapor barriers for a below grade living space X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 129 I have to agree with Richard Kadulski in that it would be better to fully insulate the wall and using a drainage material is a good idea. Rockwool drainboard is readily available on the east coast and the rigid board fibres are coarser and less irritating that the glass (they use less formaldehyde as well). I still think (depending on the porosity of the exist. conc. and the moisture conditions that using a crystallization agent like zypec would be useful. I'm not sure about the necessity of insulating the slab (it depends on groundwater height - if 4-6' below slab then I can't see the requirement for the additional expense but then I tend to get kind of cheap sometimes as all my other details can get kind of expensive. It is a good point about the summer humidity and that should add to the considerations about choices of materials - its been a while since I lived on the east coast and I do seem to remember an especially moldy basement apartment. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 19:25:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01643 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA00796 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA16213; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:18:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA14829 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:13:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA14825 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kuts17p12.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA19610; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:15:14 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970922231726.006b8718@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:17:26 -0500 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 130 Jorg, Re my question on the best windows for our situation I forgot to mention that the west facing windows will be shaded by trees during the summer, so a shading coefficient is not a big factor. Thanks, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 20:46:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA04635 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:46:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA17949 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA17794; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA17073 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:34:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA17067 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:34:06 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id UAA19704; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:36:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:36:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970922203513_1822791719@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: the "best windows" and other mysteries.... Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 131 Sacie asked: << Jorg, Who do you think makes the best windows, from the double perspective of energy efficiency and getting your money's worth?... >> and in a later post mentioned: <> Ah, the problems and challenges of a beautiful west-facing view. Sacie, where are you and is summer cooling/dehumidifcation a big concern? (sorry for the previous partial send) "Tree shading" can be a successful compliment to protecting a western view from unwanted heat gain in the summer. BUT, a few provisos. Latitude still plays a role on the amount of solar gain hitting the windows in the afternoon. Tree selection and effective shading (%) should be carefully considered. Take heart! There are many new glazing systems out there that have fairly LOW solar heat gain coefficients while still maintaining HIGH visible transmittance. I highly recommend looking at them if you have a great western view and alot of unwanted incident solar radiation. (by the way, this is even more critical when hoping to USE that western solar gain in the winters without overheating.) and regarding those "superior" European windows. In general, European windows are "built to last" in part because housing is often being paid for over three generations! Many US (and Canadian) windows are also "built to last" but with a different perspective on longevity. I DO NOT recommend "throw away" windows. They are NOT commodity products and should last as long as the building! (OR, am I mistaken, are we now building throw away buildings?.... subject for another time....) Windows should last for 20, 50 or 100 years, depending on YOUR needs and expectations for performance and reliability. The three companies you mentioned (Andersen/Pella/ Marvin) have been around for nearly 100 years. An accident? Whether you buy a "name brand" or not, remember to look closely at the warranty and whether the company will be around if and when you need them. Good luck in your search. Keep us posted on the passive solar project! Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 22:55:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA08882 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:55:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA16810 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:50:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA21906; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:50:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA20464 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:45:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA20458 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:45:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.77] (li-ppp12.hevanet.com [204.119.60.177]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26593 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970922203513_1822791719@emout18.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: GBlist: the "best windows" and other mysteries.... Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 132 Hi, all-- Second Chris' point about warranties on windows. The first time I ever saw one of the window brands mentioned in a previous post installed here in Oregon, the general contractor reported that they leaked wind-blown rain. He was planning to take them out of the house and return them to the factory. I'm not picking on anyone, just reinforcing the need for good warranties--surprises happen, even with good brands. Best, Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 22:56:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA08892 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:56:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA17006 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:51:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA21851; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:50:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA20482 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:45:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA20477 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.77] (li-ppp12.hevanet.com [204.119.60.177]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26615 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19970922.142244.4567.4.BANDJF@juno.com> References: <19970920.125737.7503.0.BANDJF@juno.com> <34252985.4E5C@bloomington.in.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 133 Hello, Beth-- For once I'm going to beat Bruce Sullivan to the punch and tell you that the Sahara is made by DEC International, Inc. Therma-Stor Products Group in Madison Wisconsin. Their phone number is 1-800-533-7533. While we have not seen a Sahara installed here in Portland, our experience with other DEC products and their product engineers has been excellent. John Bower will probably have some insights into the smell you described, but I wondered if you had mentioned whether you have air conditioning? If so, what happens to the water that condenses on the air conditioning coil? Is it possible there is a back-up in the drip pan or drain hose that would allow algae or mold to grow, or to wet the drywall or insulation? Best, Mike >Hi John- > I thank you very much for responding to my post. My husband and I >spent Sunday afternoon- learning from your book-"The Healthy House', and >certainly it answers a lot of questions for us. I do however want to >respond to your note to me, as well as go into a bit more detail on why I >asked the question in the first place. > >You wrote: >Insulation is only a problem if it migrates from where it is located >>(inside building cavities such as walls and attics, and crawl spaces) >>to >>where people are located (the living space). There are a variety of >>ways >>that such migration takes place. >> >>A low-tox insulation (such as AirKrete) can be quite costly, so I >>usually recommend preventing the insulation from getting into the >>living >>space. The thinking is this: if the insulation stays out of the living >>space, you aren't exposed, so it can't affect you. > >This is one of the things that concerns me. I had started noticing a >problem when it started getting hot and humid here. The air coming >through the ducts (central air- electric)- smelled like a cardboard/ wet >paper/ sheetrock, type of smell. At first I thought somehow this "toxic" >odor was coming from the garage- because with the garage doors closed, >that is how it smells out there. It is an attached garage, Anything like >cardboard boxes, or extra clutter has been removed and stored in a shed. >There was a fairly new sheetrock wall ( I know) put up in there in the >spring to divide the laundry room and air handler room form the rest of >the garage. There is a door from the garage to the house where that >laundry room is. No work has been done in that room- due to my >sensitivities, except for my husband covering over the sheetrock wall >with stainless steel- to help rid the area of some of that odor. The >door to the house seems well sealed- we worked on that. At first we >thought this smell was coming from the garage- but that was just too >obvious. We have by the way, a stucco ranch, on a slab. > >We had a popcorn ceiling in the house that had been scraped off >professionally, for other reasons, that I don't want to bother you with. >So the ceilings in the house to the touch have a powdery residue, then >just the sheetrock. Since I can't paint and live here, that situation >remains. I am still trying to figure out alternatives to "sealing in" or >protecting myself from that ceiling. We vacuumed the ceiling again, and >my symptoms were better. So, many area of concern here. I'm trying to >say, I don't know if I am really protected from the attic space, due to >the ceiling situation for one, and I wanted to give you a better picture >of the situation. > > >In new construction, you can build a very tight house (don't forget >>mechanical ventilation), and the insulation, no matter what kind it >>is, >>can't get into the living space. I've done this several times with >>sensitive people with great success, even using insulation that would >>be >>bothersome if a sensitive person is exposed directly. >> >>In existing houses, you are limited as to how tight you can make a >>house >>simply because you can't get to all the leakage points. Yes, you can >>often tighten a great deal, but you just can't get an existing house >>as >>tight as one you are building from scratch and tightening as you put >>it >>together. > > >We covered around ceiling fans with foil tape, and any openings we could >detect in any way. The air handler in the garage seems really tight, >and the ductwork is all new metal, that was scrubbed clean of residue, >that was done well, and wrapped at the seams with the foil tape. The is >no insulation in the system - it's on the outside. I might not be >explaining this well, hope it makes sense. > >>My suggestion in your situation is this: use a fan to blow air from >>the >>outdoors into the living space to pressurize the house. That way, air >>will enter the living space via the fan, then it will leak out through >>the structure, through building cavities, and toward the outdoors. >>Thus >>there will be no air (or pollutants) traveling from the >>insulation-filled cavities into the living space, the air will be >>moving >>in the opposite direction. Please be advised that I would not make >>this >>same recommendation in a cold climate. You said you lived in a warm, >>moist climate. Pressurization in a cold climate can lead to hidden >>moisture problems. For more information see my book Understanding >>Ventilation. > > >Thank you so much. We did read that and more. We have gotten other >advise as well about that fact that an "air-exchanger' would benefit me. >You listed in your book 'Heat Recovery Ventilator"- I'm not sure if they >are the same thing, but if I am understanding this correctly, they are >the same principle. > >Since we live in a warm moist climate, we need an air exchange that will >filter the air and dehumidify it before bringing it into the house. It >would also have to be set up to have a manual on/off switch because at >times the air is not desirable to bring in- for example- pesticides, or >any chemical odors, My understanding is that these units exist, one >type that is a separate unit that can be installed in any room, and the >other type that can be installed in relation to working in conjunction >with the air handler. > >I really need info on these air exchangers. I don't know anything more on >them except one was mentioned to me called a 'Sahara"? . No one seems to >know anything more. Is there a web site for locating, getting info on >them and investigating them, or some places i could call? I'd really >like to get going on this aspect at least- so I can hopefully start >feeling better, and get some better quality air in here. > >In your book I saw the names of companies for the 'Heat Recovery >Ventilator', but I don't know if I'm really dealing with the same thing >as just an air exchanger. > >>Having said all that, in the majority of cases, sensitive people are >>bothered by materials that are actually within the living space. >>Things >>such as carpet, cabinets, wall paneling, furnishings, cleaning >>products, >>etc., are more often the problem than someting going on in a building >>cavity. > >Well, by now you know the ceiling is a problem.- It didn't "seem" to be >such an immediate problem until it got hot and humid, and the air coming >through the system got that smell. Could be I suppose, that I'm just >recirculation this "bad air, and " with a ceiling like this It still >doesn't change the fact that we feel the air exchange is necessary for >me. > > I just want to mention, that a 'Pure Air' whole house filtration system >was installed to the air handler- and all did seem well until the heat >and humidity came. Whatever is happening it over rides the filtration >system of the house. I'm sure I am being very inaccurate explaining this >situation, but I'm doing the best I can with this. I also believe >strongly that this positive' negative air flow is a very important factor >as well. >My husband and I are very appreciate of being "steered in the right >direction" that can be provided for me, so I can feel better, and >hopefully have some recovery. I'm supposing also that I need to hire an >engineer about measuring this positive/negative air flow. I've taken up >too much of your time already, but certainly wanted to respond, >hopefully with more accuracy,, and give you a better picture of the >situation, and why I asked the question in the first place. Any steering >me in the right direction is much appreciate, I'm sure you know. > >Thanks Again, Beth >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 22:57:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA08920 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA17382 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:53:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA21978; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:50:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA20472 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:45:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA20467 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.77] (li-ppp12.hevanet.com [204.119.60.177]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26605 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970922171747_-1263974935@emout05.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Where to find bio-degradable silt fencing? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 134 Hi, Greg-- Would one of the "geo-fabrics" work for you? These are meshes made of biodegradable materials that lay over the soil and prevent it from being eroded by heavy rains. Plants can be seeded or installed through the fabric. They are widely used by highway departments, developers, commercial landscape contractors, city agencies, etc. here in Portland. We can also get "bio-bags, which are mesh bags filled with wood chips. The bags hold the soil and eventually the mesh decomposes and the wood "mulch" remains. These seem to work better than the poly fences. Best, Mike >Does anyone have a source for a bio-degradable silt fence, preferably with >wooden >stakes attached? Recycled material would be a plus. > >We need to dredge the sediment pond, to restore it's capability to filter >out sediment >before the sediment reaches the lake. Need to contain the excavated sediment >behind >a retaining wall. Seeking wall material that consumes little space and will >eventually >biodegrade, after plants take over and stabilize the retaining wall into >a pond bank. > > >The material should be capable of holding back a two foot depth of excavated >sediment. > It should also enable us to insert plants through it, into the sediment, >so they >can take root. Ideally, the material >would rot away after 2 years, and not hurt wildlife. > >I made a test wall using galvanized hog wire (2"X4" openings), and separately >.. >orange plastic 'tree protection area' fencing, both covered by burlap. Both >work, >but I'm concerned they won't age well. > >Any references on how to successfully build a biodegradeable retaining wall >would >also be appreciated. > >Thanks, >Greg N. Smith >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 22:58:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA08941 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:58:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA17446 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:53:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA21996; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:50:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA20489 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:45:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA20484 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:45:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.77] (li-ppp12.hevanet.com [204.119.60.177]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26637 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <970922143058_1889579401@emout08.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: the other side of scary window stories Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 135 Hi, Chris-- Well...Florida...isn't that where all those roofs blew off in the hurricane because they were never actually nailed on? AND they passed field inspection? Smug in Oregon >Friends, >In my search for window horror stories I have recently been reminded of >"downstream" horrors/opportunities that may also arise when window >performance decisions are not coupled with appropriate "whole house" > perspective. I will share this abbreviated story with the list (the long >version will be discussed at the EEBA conference) with the HOPES OF: >1) enlightenment coupled with humor >2) disgust at such "bad moves" >3) eliciting more stories along this line of thinking >Regards, >Chris Mathis >MCSquared > >My buddy Steve buys a new house in Orlando. Typical single-glazed aluminum >windows. Big air conditioner. Calls me up. "Chris, I can't USE half my >house! South and west sides are just too hot!" What do I propose? (and >remember the value of free advice....) "Hey Steve, do what everyone ELSE in >Florida does.... call up the sun control film installer." Steve does. Calls >back and says "THANKS. Works great. Windows are a little blue, but now I >can use my whole house. And he only charged me $100 a window!" > >and now for "the rest of the story...." (and some perspective on such >decisions) > >Steve's situation is not unusual. His builder installed $89 windows and >about 7 tons of air conditioning (oversized anyway). Steve is happy because >(ignorance is bliss) and he can now use his whole home. So, where is the >horror story? >1. Steve got to MORTGAGE the $89 window at 7.25 % for 30 years. Complete >with all the deductions implied. >2. Steve got to put an additional $100 each on his VISA at between 15% and >24%. Without deductions. >3. Steve's builder could have probably installed a $200 window for the same >basic COST to Steve but with potentially dramatic BENEFITS (energy, comfort, >UV protection, peak load reduction, glare, reduced temp swings, etc.) >4. Steve's builder installed an air conditioner that is now about 30% to 50% >MORE oversized than it was! Which will now (a) short cycle MORE (b) not >dehumidify properly (c) have shorter life (d) cost more to operate and (e) be >noisier than necessary because of the similarly oversized fans.... >5. Steve gets to do it all again in 5 to 10 years.... (or whatever the life >of the sun control film is....) or until his compressor blows up or until he >has to replace IT with one more appropriately sized in the first place. > >Without a "whole house perspective" (by the builder when FIRST constructing >and by Steve/me when "fixing") problems like these can arise. > >As you consider other "window horror stories" I would appreciate any other >"whole house-related" ones that you might have. (door and skylight stories >are also welcome:) > >Lesson # 2. All of you out there installing energy efficient windows, >upgraded insulation, weatherization and improved HVAC packages, PLEASE look >at the big picture. First costs aren't everything.... >Chris > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 22 23:35:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA09358 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:35:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA25161 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:31:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA22577; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:31:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA21334 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:26:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA21327 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:26:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28100; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:26:11 -0600 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:26:10 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "David F. Lambertson" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970922195916.006cfa34@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 136 Sacie: Anderson is a very progressive company in the US, Willmar in Canada. The most progressive technology, the most superior windows and the best education/promotional literature are all from Willmar.They are also very cost-effective in our experience over many years. We have used Pella but do not want a Cadillac when a Honda (mine has 444,4000 Km. with no major repair) is superior. Marvin is good and less expensive than Anderson. Anderson windows are often very difficult to justify re: cost, but the quality is there. DECIDE ON WINDOW SIZES, LIST THEM DOWN, FAX THEM TO 3-5 LOCAL SUPPLIERS AND ASK FOR PRICE QUOTE. Then set appointments with the 3 best quotes that balance price and performance.Then work things out with your cooperative salesperson. My main criteria for windows include (in no particular order): 1) local availability/manufacture, 2) renewable not petroleum-based materials, 3) least embodied energy content/pollution before, during and after manufacture 4) low maintainance, 5) comfort (u or R-value, low E surfaces, type of gas), 6) enlightened/educational company literature 7) progressive environmental action by the company, 8) replacement costs (esp. being a cottage), 9) warantee, 10) service record (do they promptly replace windows under warantee, 11) shading coeficient (daylight) 12) solar heat gain coefficient (passive solar input) 13) white sash 14) UV protection 15) weight (for upper windows, no large triple windows) 16) attitude of salespeople (cooperative vs armtwisting) 17) energy rating 18) etc. Windows for different rooms have different purposes. Use air between the panes in the airlock. For a primary residence I would investigate R-5.2-6.3 for the south windows (1 low E + krypton), higher insulation value for the bathroom (comfort-naked people, moisture-condensation). Don't forget about 60% of total window heat loss is radiant, so make sure you address this issue.That is all the free consulting for today.I hope this helps. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, David F. Lambertson wrote: > > Jorg, > Who do you think makes the best windows, from the double perspective > of energy efficiency and getting your moneys worth? We are working on plans > for a small 24'x30' cabin built on a shallow insulated slab with SIPs for > walls and roof. The small second floor space is under the roof. I am > wrestling with the windows and making a decision about the more expensive > Anderson/Pella/Marvin brands versus less expensive Caradco which offer clad > frames, low e glass and argon-filled space. The cabin will be heated quite > efficiently with wood from our land and will be used only intermittently > until we build our 'real' house which will be a super energy efficient > passive solar structure. I want to install a large ratio of windows on the > west side of the cabin where the forest view is spectacular but feel a bit > dumb about doing it since I am also putting up tight SIPs. I read with > interest all the window discussions including the information about much > better European windows are than are ours or yours (I think). > I would be grateful for opinions from you and from others on this > list as well. > thanks, Sacie Lambertson > > > > > > >Robyn: In our applied research on environmental windows we chose wood windows. > >>From an indoor air quality perspective, we investigated the numerous > treatments > >that such a window undergoes. Using our criteria,one of the most progressive > >manufacturer is Willmar Windows out of Winnipeg Manitoba in Canada.If > interested, > >please let me know and I can get you contact information. > >_________________________________________________________ > >Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > >- in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. > > 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > >ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 > >Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > >e-mail: > >______________________________________________________ > >On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 > >healthyp@ix.netcom.com wrote: > >> > >> I just received a phone call from a hospital asking if I knew of any > companies > >> that made environmentally safe window treatments. I would really appreciate > >> any information, so that the hospital can finish remodeling in an > >> environmentally safe manner. Thanks in advance. > >> > >> --Robyn Heller > >> EcoSmart Healthy Properties, LLC > >> > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >> Environmental Building News and Oikos > >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> > > > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 00:52:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA11679 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA09445 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:47:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA23769; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA22693 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:43:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from november.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA22689 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p163.ts1.diac.com (p163.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.163]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA11655 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 04:51:32 GMT Received: by p163.ts1.diac.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCC7A9.EBACC4A0@p163.ts1.diac.com>; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:50:27 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCC7A9.EBACC4A0@p163.ts1.diac.com> From: Gary Dean Gray To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:50:20 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id AAA11679 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 137 .... I want to install a large ratio of windows on the west side of the cabin where the forest view is spectacular but feel a bit dumb about doing it since I am also putting up tight SIPs. ... thanks, Sacie Lambertson :Just in case BUDGET and SOLAR GEOMETRY need a little bolstering, lets not forget Chris Alexander... ##################### Zen View ################## "... how should we make the most of a view? It turns out that the pattern which anwsers this question helps to govern not the rooms and windows in a building, but the places of transition. " *** "The archetypal zen view occurs in a famous Japanese house, which gives the pattern its name. A Buddist monk lived high in the mountains, in a small stone house. Far, far in the distance was the ocean, visible and beautiful in the mountains. But it was not visible from the monk's house itself, nor from the approach road to the house. However, in front of the house there stood a courtyard surrounded by a thick stone wall. As one came to the house, one passed through a gate into this court, and then diagonally across the court to the front door of the house. On the far side of the courtyard there was a slit in the wall, narrow and diagonal, cut throught the thickness of the wall. As a person walked accross the court, at one spot, where his position lined up with the slit in the wall, for an instant, he could see the ocean. And then he was past it once again, and went into the house. What happens in this courtyard? The view of the distant sea is so restrained that it stays alive forever. Who, that has ever seen that view, can ever forget it? Its power will never fade. Even for the man who lives there, coming past that view day after day for fifty years, it will still be alive. This is the essence of the problem with any view. It is a beautiful thing. One wants to enjoy it and drink it in every day. But the more open it is, the more obvious, the more it shouts, the sooner it will ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 01:04:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA11818 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:04:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA12097 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:00:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA24003; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:00:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA22923 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:56:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA22919 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 00:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA01523; Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:56:18 -0700 Message-ID: <34274B4C.5BD80E7F@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:53:32 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: healthyp@ix.netcom.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 138 Willmar makes a wood (hemlock) window with an aluminum exterior cladding. I'm not sure about their choice of base material as it would be primarily old growth from west coast forest and does not perform well with excessive moisture and does not have the same insulative cell structure as pine which most other manuf. use - however like other manuf. of alum. clad windows their wood stock is soaked in both a fungicide and insecticide (essentially dursban). Unlike other manuf. they are willing to eliminate this treatment on an order - however they will void warranties. The question remains as to the function of the treatment and what happens to the wood under the aluminum that necessitates such treatment. In other words a fungicide/pesticide treatment will maintain the existence of the wood under aluminum for the period of the warranty. In other words the wood rots under the aluminum. I think it is a poor design concept the life of which is marginally extended through the use of chemicals - not a bad analogy for contemporary medicine (couldn't resist). I'm not sure about the use of wood windows for a commercial/instituational purpose primarily because of the maintenance issues involved and the fact that there is so little control over the usage maintenance materials (finishes, cleaners, etc.) A commercial steel window with an appropriate finish might be the least environmentally destructive and most healthy finish for patients to live with in the long term. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > Robyn: In our applied research on environmental windows we chose wood > windows. > >From an indoor air quality perspective, we investigated the numerous > treatments > that such a window undergoes. Using our criteria,one of the most > progressive > manufacturer is Willmar Windows out of Winnipeg Manitoba in Canada.If > interested, > please let me know and I can get you contact information. > _________________________________________________________ > Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since > 1978), > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, > consulting > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, > workshops. > 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and > office > ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 > Web Site [under construction]: > http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > ______________________________________________________ > On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 > healthyp@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > > I just received a phone call from a hospital asking if I knew of any > companies > > that made environmentally safe window treatments. I would really > appreciate > > any information, so that the hospital can finish remodeling in an > > environmentally safe manner. Thanks in advance. > > > > --Robyn Heller > > EcoSmart Healthy Properties, LLC > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 09:48:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA16491 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA28735 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:43:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA01418; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA29074 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:31:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA29070 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:31:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA126254; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:30:24 -0600 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:30:23 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows In-Reply-To: <34274B4C.5BD80E7F@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 139 John: Sorry, we avoid the use of aluminum at ALL POSSIBLE cost due to its caustic effect on the environment during manufacturing.Instead we use Willguard prepainted finish that gives a 10-12 year waranty against maintenance. We have investigated the specific fungicides used to preserve the wood, amounts used, outgassing characteristics and their effect on health and have determined this is NOT to be a serious issue. If we were to wait for the perfect world, no project would be built or nothing would get done. This applies to every concept, feature, idea, product, specification and person. ___________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, John Salmen wrote: > > Willmar makes a wood (hemlock) window with an aluminum exterior > cladding. I'm not sure about their choice of base material as it would > be primarily old growth from west coast forest and does not perform well > with excessive moisture and does not have the same insulative cell > structure as pine which most other manuf. use - however like other > manuf. of alum. clad windows their wood stock is soaked in both a > fungicide and insecticide (essentially dursban). Unlike other manuf. > they are willing to eliminate this treatment on an order - however they > will void warranties. The question remains as to the function of the > treatment and what happens to the wood under the aluminum that > necessitates such treatment. In other words a fungicide/pesticide > treatment will maintain the existence of the wood under aluminum for the > period of the warranty. In other words the wood rots under the aluminum. > I think it is a poor design concept the life of which is marginally > extended through the use of chemicals - not a bad analogy for > contemporary medicine (couldn't resist). > I'm not sure about the use of wood windows for a > commercial/instituational purpose primarily because of the maintenance > issues involved and the fact that there is so little control over the > usage maintenance materials (finishes, cleaners, etc.) A commercial > steel window with an appropriate finish might be the least > environmentally destructive and most healthy finish for patients to live > with in the long term. > > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S. > > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > > Robyn: In our applied research on environmental windows we chose wood > > windows. > > >From an indoor air quality perspective, we investigated the numerous > > treatments > > that such a window undergoes. Using our criteria,one of the most > > progressive > > manufacturer is Willmar Windows out of Winnipeg Manitoba in Canada.If > > interested, > > please let me know and I can get you contact information. > > _________________________________________________________ > > Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > > - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since > > 1978), > > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, > > consulting > > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, > > workshops. > > 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and > > office > > ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 > > Web Site [under construction]: > > http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > > e-mail: > > ______________________________________________________ > > On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 > > healthyp@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > > > > > I just received a phone call from a hospital asking if I knew of any > > companies > > > that made environmentally safe window treatments. I would really > > appreciate > > > any information, so that the hospital can finish remodeling in an > > > environmentally safe manner. Thanks in advance. > > > > > > --Robyn Heller > > > EcoSmart Healthy Properties, LLC > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > > > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 12:07:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19563 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:07:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA04651 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:02:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA03639; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA02798 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:53:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA02794 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.142.229.18] (mke-1-2.binc.net [208.142.229.18]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA88786 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:56:07 -0500 Message-Id: <199709231556.KAA88786@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows Date: Tue, 23 Sep 97 10:04:43 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 140 Jorg, et al, Having worked on Pella clad windows since their inception (25+ years old) , I can tell you that I have never seen evidence of rot developing behind the cladding. Having worked on Pella wood (Pella uses Ponderosa Pine) windows as old as 50 years, I can tell you that if the paint is allowed to fail, the window will rot. I can totally appreciate your sentiments about aluminum. Just be sure to pass on to the clients the realities of paint maintenance. Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 12:28:56 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA20638 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:28:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA10410 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:24:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04240; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:21:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA03709 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:16:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03705 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:16:50 -0400 (EDT) From: MHillLEDA@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA21387; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:19:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:19:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970923121644_-1866739992@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: crkoehn@mailbag.com cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: water usage Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 141 In a message dated 22/09/97 14:59:19, Chris wrote: << The average seems to be somewhere between 80 and 110 gallons per person per day. That's alot of water! >> By way of comparison, the average use in England is around 150lts/person/day, which is 39.6 US gallons (conversion factor 3.785lts a gallon). There are obviously a lot of eco-friendly people using a lot less than that - one house I'm aware of that's running off rainwater is down to about 10 galls / person / day. What are you doing with the stuff ?? I don't think we're inherently smellier people walking around in dirtier clothes over here ( no replies on this please!). The maximum w.c. flush in England is now 7.5lts (2galls), and there's pressure to allow use of cisterns with less than 1gall flush ( used sucessfully in Scandinavia). The latest washing machines (good ones) use about 55lts (14.5galls) for a full wash cycle. Matthew Hill Leeds Environmental Design Associates ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 12:51:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA20892 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:51:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA15884 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:46:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04826; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:44:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04449 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:39:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.topher.net (mail.topher.net [206.136.138.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA04437 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:39:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.topher.net (ppp15.topher.net [206.136.138.174]) by mail.topher.net (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA05505; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:31:58 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:31:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199709231631.LAA05505@mail.topher.net> X-Sender: ewestbrook@mail.topher.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: MHillLEDA@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: ewestbrook Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: water usage Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 142 At 12:19 PM 9/23/97 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 22/09/97 14:59:19, Chris wrote: > ><< The average seems to be somewhere between 80 and 110 gallons per person > per day. That's alot of water! > >> and Matthew Hill replied: >By way of comparison, the average use in England is around 150lts/person/day, >which is 39.6 US gallons (conversion factor 3.785lts a gallon). >What are you doing with the stuff ?? >The latest washing machines (good ones) use about 55lts (14.5galls) for a >full wash cycle. > A few factors we should remember: 1. Municipal average gpcd figures include nonresidential uses -- commercial, industrial, system losses, etc. If I'm remembering correctly, most of those ~100 gpcd figures were based on these total uses. If UK figures are based on actual household use, let's compare apples to apples: the two households who gave actual numbers to this list were both using about 33 US gallons per day per person. (Granted, we're all relatively "green" here, but still.) 2. I could be way off-base here, but I would bet that a lot of the remaining difference goes to landscape watering. Do Americans have bigger yards, on average? Are they more addicted to lawns that look like golf courses? (yuck) They are in my suburb. The rest of the difference probably goes to larger, less efficient appliances. I can't find the exact figure, but I seem to remember than an average US washer uses 40-50 gallons per complete wash cycle. If the average family does 4-5 loads per week, that's a lot of water! Horizontal-axis washers have been very difficult to find over here; I was delighted to see that a new top-load, horizontal-axis washer is being introduced. ---Elena Westbrook, ELS WordWright Communications EWestbrook@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 13:33:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA21309 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:33:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA28780 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:28:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA05790; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA06010 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:24:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06006 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:24:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA20773; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:34:46 -0700 Message-Id: <3427FBEB.1535@arb.ca.gov> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:27:07 -0700 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Cc: lalevantis@hw1.cahwnet.gov Subject: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 143 MARY: Clearly, reducing the sources of pollutants (indoors and outdoors) is the most effective, direct strategy. In addition, "building flush-out" (hi air exchange rate and hi air mixing/surface velocity), even at normal temperatures, can avoid unnecssary pollutant exposures during initial occupancy. California's bldg. stds. now require a daily pre-occupancy flush-out of non-residential bldgs. (contact Calif. Energy Commission, 916.654.4064 re: Title 24 bldg. design stds.). Swedish researchers recommend running the HVAC at high outdoor air flows for up to 6 months after initial occupancy (see articles by Birgitta Berglund, Indoor Air proceedings, ASHRAE proceedings, etc.). Annual inspection and mintenance of HVAC systems in workplaces is also required in Calif. Building commissioning, i.e., performance testing of all systems in a completed building, should help avoid many problems typically found in new office building ventilation systems. Based on energy savings alone, building commissioning appears to be very worthwhile. See previous Bldg. Commissioning conferences at http://www.teleport.com/~peci/index.htm, and Sustainable Bldg. conference at http://fcn.state.fl.us/fdi/e-design/online/9704/cx-dade.htm. The State of Florida has also begun using bldg. commissioning in its new bldgs., I gather. Canada has an R2000 Office Building project in progress that may be of interest too. The Calif. Dept. of Health Services IAQ Program has recently produced VOC Guidelines which address these issues. Contact Leon Alevantis, 510.540.2132, lalevantis@hw1.cahwnet.gov. Cheers, Tom Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:47:11 -0500 From: "Mary McDaniel" Subject: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? Does anyone have references or information on how to outgas a new 10 story office building by heating it up to outgas or any other methods? I remember reading something about heat to outgas, but I can't find the reference. My husband is moving into this building next year and we were talking about ways to minimize sick building problems since the builder did not do any greenbuilding techniques to our knowledge. Hopefully, greenbuilding practices will be the "norm" in the future instead of the exception! -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 14:11:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA22894 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:11:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA10710 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:07:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08625; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA07366 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:01:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA07360 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:01:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA21815; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:11:53 -0700 Message-Id: <3428049D.79EF@arb.ca.gov> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:04:14 -0700 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Cc: lalevant@hw1.cahwnet.gov Subject: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 144 MARY: Clearly, reducing the sources of pollutants (indoors and outdoors) is the most effective, direct strategy. In addition, "building flush-out" (hi air exchange rate and hi air mixing/surface velocity), even at normal temperatures, can avoid unnecssary pollutant exposures during initial occupancy. California's bldg. stds. now require a daily pre-occupancy flush-out of non-residential bldgs. (contact Calif. Energy Commission, 916.654.4064 re: Title 24 bldg. design stds.). Swedish researchers recommend running the HVAC at high outdoor air flows for up to 6 months after initial occupancy (see articles by Birgitta Berglund, Indoor Air proceedings, ASHRAE proceedings, etc.). Annual inspection and mintenance of HVAC systems in workplaces is also required in Calif. Building commissioning, i.e., performance testing of all systems in a completed building, should help avoid many problems typically found in new office building ventilation systems. Based on energy savings alone, building commissioning appears to be very worthwhile. See previous Bldg. Commissioning conferences at http://www.teleport.com/~peci/index.htm, and Sustainable Bldg. conference at http://fcn.state.fl.us/fdi/e-design/online/9704/cx-dade.htm. The State of Florida has also begun using bldg. commissioning in its new bldgs., I gather. Canada has an R2000 Office Building project in progress that may be of interest too. The Calif. Dept. of Health Services IAQ Program has recently produced VOC Guidelines which address these issues. Contact Leon Alevantis, 510.540.2132, lalevant@hw1.cahwnet.gov. Cheers, Tom Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:47:11 -0500 From: "Mary McDaniel" Subject: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? Does anyone have references or information on how to outgas a new 10 story office building by heating it up to outgas or any other methods? I remember reading something about heat to outgas, but I can't find the reference. My husband is moving into this building next year and we were talking about ways to minimize sick building problems since the builder did not do any greenbuilding techniques to our knowledge. Hopefully, greenbuilding practices will be the "norm" in the future instead of the exception! -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 15:40:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA24197 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:40:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA09319 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:36:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA12422; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA10189 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:31:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10185 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:31:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.112] (pa-ppp27.hevanet.com [204.119.60.112]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28549 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3427FBEB.1535@arb.ca.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 145 Hello, Building Bakers-- Say, one question that has perplexed me about the building bakeout concept--where does all that pollution go after it leaves the building? Is that acceptable? Best, Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 15:58:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA24366 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:58:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15173 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:53:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA13244; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA10786 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:49:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10782 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:49:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (dial-23-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.23]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA31790 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:52:11 -0400 Message-ID: <34281DE0.753@together.net> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:52:00 -0400 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: High Testosterone in Violent Women Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 146 Militant Feminists, eh? Tuesday September 23 2:09 PM EDT High Testosterone in Violent Women NEW YORK (Reuters) -- Women who commit violent crimes and show "aggressive dominance" in prison are more likely to have high levels of testosterone than other female inmates, a study shows. The report in the September-October issue of the journal Psychosomatic Medicine notes that older female prison inmates whose testosterone levels decreased with age also showed decreased aggressive behavior -- but not those whose hormone levels remained high. "The study shows that testosterone in females has much the same effect as it has in males. In the context of prison, women are more dominant and tended to have committed violent crimes," says Dr. James Dabbs, professor of psychology at Georgia State University in Atlanta. Dabbs points out that levels of testosterone in women "are much lower than in men, maybe a tenth of the levels in men. But among (women) themselves, they are equally varied in that in some women, the levels may be twice as high as in others, as in some men they are twice as high as others." The study included 87 female inmates, ages 17 to 60, at a maximum security prison. The women's testosterone levels were measured via a test of saliva, which Dabbs says correlates with blood levels of the hormone. The Georgia researchers examined the women's court records and made assessments of their prison behavior based on prison records and interviews with staff. According to Dabbs, the new findings are similar to those in recent studies of male prison inmates in which testosterone levels were highest among men convicted of violent crimes such as rape, homicide, assault. As inmates they also violated more prison rules. According to Dabbs, additional but "tentative" findings in his study pertain to five women whose testosterone levels were lowest. Three staff members (without knowledge of the inmates' hormone levels) "used the phrases 'very manipulative,' 'denies her part in problems,' 'sneaky,' a 'snake in the grass,"' to describe the five, Dabbs notes. And when asked for a single adjective that best described these inmates, all agreed "treacherous" was the word. According to Dabbs, this subjective assessment of the five "makes sense." "If you're going to be straightforward in your behavior, you need a lot of gumption behind it." Thus, lacking the "gumption" conferred by higher hormone levels, these women find ways to be "equally bad -- bad-tempered or bad-natured -- but are afraid to show it directly," he explains. Still, Dabbs acknowledges the possibility of a chicken versus egg question; that is, which comes first -- the hormone level or the violent behavior? "It's both. Testosterone comes at a certain level, and some people are higher than others and always have been and will be, and that's going to make them a little bit different," he says. "On the other hand, behavior is going to change it (testosterone level). In studies of athletes, winning a contest increases testosterone and in studies of animals, winning a fight increases testosterone," he points out. "In my view, the most important part is how the testosterone affects the behavior, because some people are just chronically higher in testosterone," Dabbs adds. But the researcher says the new study "does not imply testosterone is the only variable or the most important one. Social factors, physical condition, and other hormones undoubtedly contribute to criminal behavior and behavior in prison." SOURCE: Psychosomatic Medicine (1997;59) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 16:01:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA24410 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:01:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA16166 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:57:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA13336; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA10887 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:52:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10882 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:52:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (dial-23-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.23]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA31873 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:55:08 -0400 Message-ID: <34281E91.116@together.net> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:54:57 -0400 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Subject: GBlist: Message sent by Mistake Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 147 Oops.! I sent a message to you about female hormones/female violence. :-) It was sent to you by mistake. My regrets. Tom Anderson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 16:29:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA24769 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA23780 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:24:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA14246; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:24:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA11639 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:19:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA11635 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.244.229] (1Cust101.max3.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.244.229]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA21705 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709232022.NAA21705@italy.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: How to outgas a new building? Date: Tue, 23 Sep 97 13:21:04 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 148 Mike Didn't you know "dilution is the solution to pollution?" ;-) Bruce >Hello, Building Bakers-- > >Say, one question that has perplexed me about the building bakeout >concept--where does all that pollution go after it leaves the building? > >Is that acceptable? > >Best, Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 18:45:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA27053 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:45:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA29606 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:40:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA17936; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:40:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA15583 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:36:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA15579 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from van-as-14b03.direct.ca [204.174.251.67] by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.70 #1) id 0xDdav-0006pQ-00; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:38:14 -0700 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows (digest V1 #397) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:36:51 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 149 >From: John Salmen > : > > Willmar makes a wood (hemlock) window with an aluminum exterior > cladding. I'm not sure about their choice of base material as it would > be primarily old growth from west coast forest and does not perform well > with excessive moisture and does not have the same insulative cell > structure as pine which most other manuf. use - however like other > manuf. of alum. clad windows their wood stock is soaked in both a > fungicide and insecticide (essentially dursban). Unlike other manuf. > they are willing to eliminate this treatment on an order - however they > will void warranties. The question remains as to the function of the > treatment and what happens to the wood under the aluminum that > necessitates such treatment. In other words a fungicide/pesticide > treatment will maintain the existence of the wood under aluminum for the > period of the warranty. In other words the wood rots under the aluminum. A fungicide is used is because it is a requirement of the CSA standard for wood window frames. ALL wood windows, whether clad or not, have to be treated. Perhaps the standard should be reviewed? The aluminum (or vinyl) cladding actualy protects the wood in most cases, and provides a durable exterior finish. > I think it is a poor design concept the life of which is marginally > extended through the use of chemicals - not a bad analogy for > contemporary medicine (couldn't resist). > I'm not sure about the use of wood windows for a > commercial/instituational purpose primarily because of the maintenance > issues involved and the fact that there is so little control over the > usage maintenance materials (finishes, cleaners, etc.) A commercial > steel window with an appropriate finish might be the least > environmentally destructive and most healthy finish for patients to live > with in the long term. > > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S. > Richard Kadulski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 21:12:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA29164 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:12:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA04092 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:07:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA20600; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:04:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA19011 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:57:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pathway1.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [204.191.122.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA19007 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:57:09 -0400 (EDT) From: timex@pathcom.com Received: from ts36l3.pathcom.com (ts36l3.pathcom.com [209.112.18.166]) by pathway1.pathcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA26193; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709240059.UAA26193@pathway1.pathcom.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: MHillLEDA@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:55:39 +0000 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: water usage Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <970923121644_-1866739992@emout09.mail.aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 150 One big difference I have seen in some countries is that when others shower they turn on the water, get wet, and turn it off. After soaping and scrubbing, they turn it on again to rinse. N Americans seem to leave the water running, hot and heavy, for the duration. This does seem unnecessary since I have seen another way. Never thought about it before that. Marilyn http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Keep on keepin' on. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 23 21:53:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA00360 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA13492 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:48:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA21616; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:47:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA20120 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:40:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ns.waonline.com (ns.waonline.com [208.192.52.129]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA20116 for ; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:40:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from waonline.com (1Cust61.max3.new-york.ny.ms.uu.net [153.35.1.61]) by ns.waonline.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA24398; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <34286EC3.99881943@waonline.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:37:07 -0400 From: "Warren C. Liebold" Reply-To: wliebold@waonline.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: MHillLEDA@aol.com CC: crkoehn@mailbag.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: What do Americans do with all that water? References: <970923121644_-1866739992@emout09.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 151 That's a question that I get sooner or later from most colleagues/friends from the UK. There are several reasons which you alluded to: 1. Europeans in general have long used horizontal axis washing machines, which use 20 -60% less water than the machines in common use in American homes. 2. Water closets have been no greater than 9 -12 litres/flush for quite a while from what I understand, compared to 16- 20 litres/flush in the US prior to 1982 or so and 13 litres from 1982 - 1994. 3. Although the UK is incorrectly assumed by many Americans to be rainy, there is a big hunk of the US which is really dry. Outdoor water use in the southwest and southern CA is pretty high. What other characteristics would you point to? http://waterwiser.org -- Warren C. Liebold wliebold@waonline.com wliebold@pppmail.nyser.net Director of Conservation New York City Department of Environmental Protection ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 09:52:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA08364 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:52:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA16467 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:48:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA00972; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA00413 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:39:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA00409 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:39:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA133258; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:38:51 -0600 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 07:38:51 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Warren C. Liebold" Cc: MHillLEDA@aol.com, crkoehn@mailbag.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: What do Americans do with all that water? In-Reply-To: <34286EC3.99881943@waonline.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 152 Warren: Over the last several years our average demand for water is 2 cubic meters per month in our home in Calgary Alberta Canada. We use a .6 L flush toilet and a waterless toilet. We also collect rainwater. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 10:33:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA08953 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27198 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA01629; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01578 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:24:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA01574; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA129790; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:24:16 -0600 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:24:16 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Chris & Ruth Koehn Cc: GB List , strawbale@crest.org, al dueck Subject: Re: GBlist: ideal environmental window In-Reply-To: <199709231556.KAA88786@glacier.binc.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 153 Chris/John/Mathius: Further to the above and the message of below, what would you like to see in the ideal environmental window? Perhaps the cladding to protect the exterior wood could be: 1) baked on or elecrostatically applied environmentally-sound paint 2) prepainted or enamelled recycled steel 3) or recycled plastic (don't like this as much) The wood could be strawboard (but I don't know the u-value yet) rather than 50 year-old trees, with treatment being "Lifetime" (natural) preservative? I have experience with each of these materials but not in a window. Suggestions welcomed. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Chris & Ruth Koehn wrote: > Jorg, et al, > > Having worked on Pella clad windows since their inception (25+ years old) > , I can tell you that I have never seen evidence of rot developing behind > the cladding. Having worked on Pella wood (Pella uses Ponderosa Pine) > windows as old as 50 years, I can tell you that if the paint is allowed > to fail, the window will rot. > > I can totally appreciate your sentiments about aluminum. Just be sure to > pass on to the clients the realities of paint maintenance. > > Chris Koehn > Top Ridge > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 12:31:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12385 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:31:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09978 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:27:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03869; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04715 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:14:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA04709 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:13:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kuts12p11.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA24165; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:16:18 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970924161835.006bd55c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:18:35 -0500 To: ggray@diac.com From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Christopher A/s notion of windows Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 154 Gary, I didn't forget Christopher A's admonition about a view. I considered it and then decided I want to put in bigger windows than he might have liked. One doesn't sit all day and look out; in fact you usually forget about the window until you want to notice. And then it is very nice to have a great place on which to look. For the same reason I wouldn't want to climb a tower every day there is a gorgeous sunset. I want it right there when I decide to look. Nature changes every day; I want to see those changes. But thanks---------C.A.'s right in most ways. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 14:03:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15001 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:03:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA04307 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:58:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA07086; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:58:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA08000 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:52:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA07993 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:52:57 -0400 (EDT) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA19885 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970924135316_978400030@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Yard Waste? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 155 Hello GBListers: I have a client who has raised an interesting question. She is building a new house in Los Angeles to specifications for chemical sensitivity and is concerned about the environment in general. She has three large dogs which she keeps in a special area of the yard. She has 6 cats which stay in the house, in a special area with its own air handler and ventilation, using a "green" brand of cat litter. Her concern is that these animals produce a large volume of "waste product" manifesting several problems: 1. Storm drainage from the dogs' yard may be damaging the surrounding ground. Can anything be done to protect groundwater, air and soil? What ecological or health hazards are involved? 2. LA can be very hot and odors can be quite strong. Are there any environmentally sound ways to reduce the steaming stench? 3. Flushing dog and cat waste down the toilet uses a lot of water. Can it be composted or otherwise utilized? 4. Placing such a large volume of this "product" in the trash not only produces odor problems, but seems wasteful if there is a constructive use for the material. Are there any environmentally sound alternatives to the usual means of disposal? Can this waste stream act as "resource" for some other useful process? I throw out this challenge in hopes that some of you may have already discovered design or mechanical solutions for this problem. Several of you have discussed alternative waste systems, Permaculture, composting, and other related issues. There are pets in many homes and this seems important not only to the health and well being of the residents and neighbors, but to the larger environment as well. Thanks in advance for your thoughts, David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone/fax: 510-841-1039 email: IAQKibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 14:33:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15436 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:33:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA13393 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:29:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08304; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09140 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:22:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09111; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet3.carleton.ca [134.117.136.23]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA11333; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id NAA27267; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709241756.NAA27267@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca Subject: GBlist: Re: ideal environmental window Cc: strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 156 on Wed Sep 24 1997 jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca ("Jorg D. Ostrowski") wrote: [snipped & pasted for brevity] > Perhaps the cladding to protect the exterior wood could be: > ...(1) environmentally-sound paint 2) prepainted or > enamelled recycled steel 3) recycled plastic > The wood could be strawboard Hello Jorg and IdealHeads; I have to wonder if there is such a thing as an "environmentally- sound" paint that will stand up to the rigourous conditions that a window experiences. Aren't such paints usually a chemical stew ? (I don't think I'd care to drink the stuff.) IMO, paint over rot-prone material in *any* exterior application is a short-lived, high-maintenance and generally unsatisfactory solution to the problem of weather protection. The better solution would seem to be to use an inherently weather-resistant material. I'm not sure that painted, recycled steel is any more Green Virtuous either. I don't have any numbers for the energy inputs required to recycle steel but I suspect that it is almost as high as for new steel. In view of the fact that strawboard is dimensionally unstable in the presence of moisture, it would seem to be a poor choice for something that requires the close tolerances that window frames and sash would demand. Perhaps something like the recycled wood composites or recycled plastic that are used for outdoor deck lumber, which are inherently weather-resistant to the core, could be used. I have no idea what the R & U values are for these materials, but I suspect it is comparable to real wood and certainly better than aluminum. I've never seen the "pull-truded" shredded fiberglass/resin frame/sash windows produced by Accurate Dorwin, Winnipeg Manitoba (204) 667-5078) (mentioned in Wayne Grady's "Green Home"), but it seems that AD's idea would be a reasonable alternative to painted or aluminum-clad wood. AD's R-8 centre of glass (or Canadian rating of ER-1 (net energy gain of 1 watt per square metre in *any* orientation in winter) sounds pretty good too. Perhaps not ideal, but not bad. Eh ? -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 15:58:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA17151 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:58:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA08748 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:53:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10300; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:52:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA12251 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:47:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA12245 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.116] (pa-ppp31.hevanet.com [204.119.60.116]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21418 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34286EC3.99881943@waonline.com> References: <970923121644_-1866739992@emout09.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: What do Americans do with all that water? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 157 Hello, All-- When we visited friends in England, I noticed that everything was smaller than its American equivalent. Houses, windows, shower stalls, cars, refrigerators, shops, grocery carts--everything seems about 3/4 scale, compared to the US. I don't think you'd ever see an English family doing a Costco run and hauling $500 worth of stuff on the handcart to load into their sport-ute and get home to their two freezers in their 3,000 SF house with 52" home video theater and 9-channel surround sound. English people still buy pints of milk, wear the same shirt twice, wash instead of showering and have to pay coins directly into their household electric meter to keep the lights on. Maybe they are just more aware of costs and consumption than we are? Best, Mike >That's a question that I get sooner or later from most >colleagues/friends from the UK. There are several reasons which you >alluded to: > >1. Europeans in general have long used horizontal axis washing >machines, which use 20 -60% less water than the machines in common use >in American homes. > >2. Water closets have been no greater than 9 -12 litres/flush for quite >a while from what I understand, compared to 16- 20 litres/flush in the >US prior to 1982 or so and 13 litres from 1982 - 1994. > >3. Although the UK is incorrectly assumed by many Americans to be >rainy, there is a big hunk of the US which is really dry. Outdoor water >use in the southwest and southern CA is pretty high. > >What other characteristics would you point to? > >http://waterwiser.org > >-- >Warren C. Liebold > >wliebold@waonline.com >wliebold@pppmail.nyser.net > >Director of Conservation >New York City Department of Environmental Protection > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 16:00:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA17201 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:00:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA09420 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:55:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10359; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:52:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA12256 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:47:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA12243 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.116] (pa-ppp31.hevanet.com [204.119.60.116]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21413 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:50:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199709231556.KAA88786@glacier.binc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: ideal environmental window Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 158 Hello, Jorg-- What about the fiberglass frames? Wouldn't they last indefinitely? Isn't the finished fiberglass chemically inert? Best, Mike >Chris/John/Mathius: Further to the above and the message of below, what >would you like to see in the ideal environmental window? > >Perhaps the cladding to protect the exterior wood could be: >1) baked on or elecrostatically applied environmentally-sound paint >2) prepainted or enamelled recycled steel >3) or recycled plastic (don't like this as much) > >The wood could be strawboard (but I don't know the u-value yet) rather than 50 >year-old trees, with treatment being "Lifetime" (natural) preservative? I have >experience with each of these materials but not in a window. Suggestions >welcomed. >_________________________________________________________ >Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect >- in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. > 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office >ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 >Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm >e-mail: >______________________________________________________ >On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Chris & Ruth Koehn wrote: >> Jorg, et al, >> >> Having worked on Pella clad windows since their inception (25+ years old) >> , I can tell you that I have never seen evidence of rot developing behind >> the cladding. Having worked on Pella wood (Pella uses Ponderosa Pine) >> windows as old as 50 years, I can tell you that if the paint is allowed >> to fail, the window will rot. >> >> I can totally appreciate your sentiments about aluminum. Just be sure to >> pass on to the clients the realities of paint maintenance. >> >> Chris Koehn >> Top Ridge >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >> Environmental Building News and Oikos >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 19:36:21 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA22013 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA12635 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:31:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA15214; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:28:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA18852 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:21:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA18848 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:21:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA133830; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:20:54 -0600 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 17:20:54 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Mike O'Brien" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, al dueck Subject: Re: GBlist: ideal environmental window In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 159 Mike: Having worked with fiberglass in construction, I am very concerned with serious air pollution and embodied energy during manufacturing.I would rather work with a renewable resource such as straw or even wood over fiberglass. Also is it not a petroleum resource? Perhaps someone can enlighten me, if I am wrong. Durability and maintenance are excellent. How similar is its coefficient of expansion/contraction to that of glass? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Mike O'Brien wrote: > > Hello, Jorg-- > > What about the fiberglass frames? Wouldn't they last indefinitely? Isn't > the finished fiberglass chemically inert? > > Best, Mike > > >Chris/John/Mathius: Further to the above and the message of below, what > >would you like to see in the ideal environmental window? > > > >Perhaps the cladding to protect the exterior wood could be: > >1) baked on or elecrostatically applied environmentally-sound paint > >2) prepainted or enamelled recycled steel > >3) or recycled plastic (don't like this as much) > > > >The wood could be strawboard (but I don't know the u-value yet) rather than 50 > >year-old trees, with treatment being "Lifetime" (natural) preservative? I have > >experience with each of these materials but not in a window. Suggestions > >welcomed. > >_________________________________________________________ > >Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > >- in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. > > 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > >ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 > >Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > >e-mail: > >______________________________________________________ > >On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, Chris & Ruth Koehn wrote: > >> Jorg, et al, > >> > >> Having worked on Pella clad windows since their inception (25+ years old) > >> , I can tell you that I have never seen evidence of rot developing behind > >> the cladding. Having worked on Pella wood (Pella uses Ponderosa Pine) > >> windows as old as 50 years, I can tell you that if the paint is allowed > >> to fail, the window will rot. > >> > >> I can totally appreciate your sentiments about aluminum. Just be sure to > >> pass on to the clients the realities of paint maintenance. > >> > >> Chris Koehn > >> Top Ridge > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >> Environmental Building News and Oikos > >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> > > > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > O'Brien & Associates > Environmental Building Consultants > Portland General Electric Earth Smart program > obrien@hevanet.com > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 24 21:32:05 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA24540 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA09096 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:27:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA17898; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA22203 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:22:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA22195 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:22:18 -0400 (EDT) From: RodLambert@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA19550 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:24:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:24:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970924212229_1097784358@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: window performance Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 160 Hi, I'm new to the list and have been following the discussion on "best windows". Question: Is there performance data for windows over the long term - 5, 10,20 years? Here at Ecovillage at Ithaca we have installed triple glazed Winnipeg windows with fiberglas frames that appear to be good in most areas but have noticed a few structural things that make me wonder about their long term performance (although we are pretty pleased with them on the whole.) It seems to me test performances on brand new windows is not the whole picture. I once installed low - leakage, double weather stripped windows to later discover that the sun degenerated the strips to uselessness within 5 years. What about low-e argon windows? Does the argon eventually disperse over an unacceptably short time reducing the insulating value to dry air again? Does the film degenerate similarily? We are about to begin our Second Neighborhood design and hope to push the envelope of possibilities a little further. The first neighborhood did a few things that may be of interest to some. We have used exhaust- only air handling with heating for up to eight houses handled by energy centers with mixed results so far. Hopefully further tweaking will bring them up to expectations. The large 'common house' uses hydronic radiant floors with air conditioned via pond cooling and HRVs. Much of our systems have been running for only a short while and data is preliminary. I have been impressed by the knowledge and skills many people have on this list and hope to be able to contribute some field data and the occasional word of wisdom. Rod Lambert Ecovillage at Ithaca, NY. USA. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 01:10:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA28142 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA27810 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:05:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA20867; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:03:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA26346 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:58:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA26342 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:58:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA13041; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:58:49 -0700 Message-ID: <3429EEF6.3EBBEF68@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:56:22 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 161 (I noticed that the conversation has progressed since I began this but what the heck - It takes me a while to catch up) I'm sorry if I gave any offense - I did not intend to. I assumed Jorg was referring to aluminum clad windows which is the most popular Wilmar and similar manuf. line of windows. As one might suspect I am not a fan of claddings and need to be convinced that maintenance issues cannot be adequately addressed without putting two materials together with all kinds of gaskets, sealers and binders and additives to compensate for radically different expansion capacities or difficulties of design. There are a large host of issues here REQUIREMENTS FOR EXT. MAINTENANCE: The usage of aluminum and chlorine based plastics or benzene polymers (vinyl) for the purposes of protecting the exterior of a wood window seems extreme or wasteful. Not just the material itself but the process of window. manuf. itself becomes overly complicated. - low voc paints are not providing the ext. protection that previous finishes could and in the case of latex actually can entrap moisture and compromise the longevity of ext. wood usage. - advances in making windows air and moisture tight (side and face gaskets, etc) are preventing air movement around a window and keeping moisture in contact with wood. - surface or face mounting of windows rather than traditional recess put the wood elements in more direct exposure to the elements. The above comments bring up the question for me about the general current suitability of wood as a material for windows (a difficult question for me as we have used nothing but wood windows in our buildings but then we have a lot of control over both their manufacture and placement). Wood has long represented some of the green values of alternative or sustainable building efforts and as a visible element in a home it has been a 'natural' choice. How natural though is a product soaked in a solvent base containing fungicides and insecticides. Despite Jorg's warranty that this is not a serious issue, similar dip treatment of wood was considered a serious enough issue to be banned for import by the EEC and was the original motivation for us to develop alternative wood sources (not that long ago most framing and finishing materials in N.A. were treated with antifungal agents.) I don't think this is a 'its not a perfect world' issue as I mentioned previously Willmar for one will forego the treatment at no extra cost - I do think it is an issue that such information is not made explicit and I think it is a serious issue for the increasing number of people that are chemically sensitive and are making what they assume to be safe choices. I was not aware that treatment was a CSA requirement for approval. I am aware that the only Canadian building code requirements concerning windows are based in mechanical performance and that a large number of windows and window components are manufactured and exported without treatment. I would like to comment on alternatives but will save it for another post. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > John: Sorry, we avoid the use of aluminum at ALL POSSIBLE cost due to > its > caustic effect on the environment during manufacturing.Instead we use > Willguard > prepainted finish that gives a 10-12 year waranty against maintenance. > We > have investigated the specific fungicides used to preserve the wood, > amounts used, outgassing characteristics and their effect on > health and have determined this is NOT to be a serious issue. If we > were > to wait for the perfect world, no project would be built or nothing > would > get done. This applies to every concept, feature, idea, product, > specification and person. > > ________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 01:27:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA28287 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA00294 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA21075; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:23:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA26590 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:18:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA26586 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA13264; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:18:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3429F37D.F155A455@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:15:41 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Windows and ideals circ.19TH CENT X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 162 William Morris commenting on the advent and increased residential usage of large sheet glass (as apposed to multi-paned windows) said something to the effect - 'if you want to feel like your outside - go outside' John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 01:52:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA28412 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA03869 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:48:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA22927; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:48:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA26948 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:43:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.1.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA26943 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 01:43:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.175.104.29] (hdn100-029.hil.compuserve.com [206.175.104.29]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA14676; Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:45:55 -0700 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:45:55 -0700 Message-Id: <199709250545.WAA14676@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: Safe Insulation? / Moisture To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 163 > bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) wrote: > I have Chemical Sensitivity, and would greatly appreciate some > suggestions on making our attic/crawlspace less unhealthy for me. > > In crawlspace is old insulation- a ground up paper type of blown > in insulation. I have been advised to have it removed, and replaced with > something that is a "safer" alternative for myself- with my condition. ----------------------------------------------------------- Response by: Bion Howard ----------------------------------------------------------- Cellulose insulation properly installed is one of the safest green products on the market. It is only when improperly installed and allowed to get wet that it can start to serve as a food source and substrate for fungii. I would be reluctant to install cellulose in a crawl space unless it were very well designed for moisture resistance, and the site had terrific drainage. In most cases I would be comfortable using cellulose, but not in a crawl space. In fact, I would not recommend any home built on a crawl space for a person with MCS in the first place. In an attic, cellulose insulation should prove to be a good application. More information on cellulose insulation: http://www.cellulose.org --------------- crawl space funk ------------- Where there _is_ a lot of moisture there are several key approaches to remedy your problem: 1. eliminate sources of moisture to extent possible 2. get a professional blower-door guided seal-up job done on the interface between the crawl space and home !!! especially bad are leaky return ducts located in crawl space !!! 3. spec insul product having good tested moisture resistance 4. install product per manufacturers instructions 5. be sure the entire assembly has a way to dry out, since there are times when otherwise good materials can create "vapor dams" (after: Bill Lotz, ASHRAE) 6. consider products that themselves dry out; ironically treated cellulose will dry out, and so will many other insulations, but they can become compacted lowering their R-factor. There are a variety of good moisture references. Look for DOE Moisture Handbook (EEBA and Oikos both have this) and for the ASTM Moisture STP by Heinz Treschel (1990 ?) These are the main ones. Secondary sources, Joe Lstiburek and Canadian Building Digests (several #'s) ### ---------------< Contact Information >----------------- Mr. Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, Maryland 20773 USA bdhoward@ix.netcom.com <--> http://www.nrg-builder.com Voice# 410-867-8000 fax# 301-889-0889 ------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 10:58:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA05396 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA07870 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA00393; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA04592 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:39:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA04583 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29088; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:38:21 -0600 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:38:21 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, al dueck Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows In-Reply-To: <3429EEF6.3EBBEF68@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 164 John: Thank you for your excellent commentary. I will have to review it in greater depth to see which of your specific comments may be incorporated into our R-20 prototype window. Perhaps this effort can be a team effort (with some of the best minds in the field) and any people with constructive comments and practical suggestions will be given credit once the actual fabrication goes ahead. No guarantees, but my best effort. Wouldn't it be wonderful if the meeting of minds on the internet can lead to a practical REAL WORLD development that would be the leading edge? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. 3 demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, John Salmen wrote: > > (I noticed that the conversation has progressed since I began this but > what the heck - It takes me a while to catch up) > > I'm sorry if I gave any offense - I did not intend to. I assumed Jorg > was referring to aluminum clad windows which is the most popular Wilmar > and similar manuf. line of windows. As one might suspect I am not a fan > of claddings and need to be convinced that maintenance issues cannot be > adequately addressed without putting two materials together with all > kinds of gaskets, sealers and binders and additives to compensate for > radically different expansion capacities or difficulties of design. > > There are a large host of issues here > REQUIREMENTS FOR EXT. MAINTENANCE: The usage of aluminum and chlorine > based plastics or benzene polymers (vinyl) for the purposes of > protecting the exterior of a wood window seems extreme or wasteful. Not > just > the material itself but the process of window. manuf. itself becomes > overly complicated. > - low voc paints are not providing the ext. protection that previous > finishes could and in the case of latex actually can entrap moisture and > compromise the longevity of ext. wood usage. > - advances in making windows air and moisture tight (side and face > gaskets, etc) are preventing air movement around a window and keeping > moisture in contact with wood. > - surface or face mounting of windows rather than traditional recess put > the wood elements in more direct exposure to the elements. > > The above comments bring up the question for me about the general > current suitability of wood as a material for windows (a difficult > question for me as we have used nothing but wood windows in our > buildings but then we have a lot of control over both their manufacture > and placement). > > Wood has long represented some of the green values of alternative or > sustainable building efforts and as a visible element in a home it has > been a 'natural' choice. How natural though is a product soaked in a > solvent base containing fungicides and insecticides. > > Despite Jorg's warranty that this is not a serious issue, similar dip > treatment of wood was considered a serious enough issue to be banned for > import by the EEC and was the original motivation for us to develop > alternative wood sources (not that long ago most framing and finishing > materials in N.A. were treated with antifungal agents.) I don't think > this is a 'its not a perfect world' issue as I mentioned previously > Willmar for one will forego the treatment at no extra cost - I do think > it is an issue that such information is not made explicit and I think it > is a serious issue for the increasing number of people that are > chemically sensitive and are making what they assume to be safe choices. > > I was not aware that treatment was a CSA requirement for approval. I am > aware that the only Canadian building code requirements concerning > windows are based in mechanical performance and that a large number of > windows and window components are manufactured and exported without > treatment. > > I would like to comment on alternatives but will save it for another > post. > > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S > > > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > > John: Sorry, we avoid the use of aluminum at ALL POSSIBLE cost due to > > its > > caustic effect on the environment during manufacturing.Instead we use > > Willguard > > prepainted finish that gives a 10-12 year waranty against maintenance. > > We > > have investigated the specific fungicides used to preserve the wood, > > amounts used, outgassing characteristics and their effect on > > health and have determined this is NOT to be a serious issue. If we > > were > > to wait for the perfect world, no project would be built or nothing > > would > > get done. This applies to every concept, feature, idea, product, > > specification and person. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 11:05:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA05505 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:05:08 -0400 (EDT) From: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA09600 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:00:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA00889; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:00:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA05085 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709251455.KAA05085@solstice.crest.org> X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: ksipro@aol.com Subject: GBlist: Info requested on: "4 Times Square" References: <199709242112.RAA21632@phl3.iacnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 165 Greenbuilding list -- anybody able to give this person some leads on subject project? Thanks, Bion ====================================================== Andrea Ruble wrote: > from = ksipro@aol.com > company = KnightScenes, Inc. > phone = 202-289-2201 > I'm writing to find out if you know anything about > 4 Time[s] Square, a model energy efficient office building under > construction in NYC. I need help locating a contact person who > can provide video footage for a DOE project I am producing. > Thank you... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 11:10:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA05568 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10761 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA00834; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA05079 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:55:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05065 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.244.189] (1Cust61.max3.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.244.189]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA24591 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:57:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709251457.HAA24591@norway.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental windows Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 07:56:39 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan cc: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 166 >Wouldn't it be >wonderful if the meeting of minds on the internet can lead to a practical >REAL WORLD development that would be the leading edge? Jorg, This is exactly the point of our discussion group. Let me know if there's anything the moderators can do to help. Bruce ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 13:02:41 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA09766 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA11763 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:58:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA03252; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA08863 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:53:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA08859 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:53:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.142.229.22] (mke-1-6.binc.net [208.142.229.22]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA88174; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:55:30 -0500 Message-Id: <199709251655.LAA88174@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: ideal environmental window Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 11:04:09 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "Jorg Ostrowski" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 167 Ideal environmental window? It's a tough question. I like the idea of really good paint, except for two caveats: Today's homeowners don't want the maintenance associated with a painted exterior surface as tedious to re-paint as windows; and traditional, good exterior paint is probably as bad for the environment as aluminum, accounting for manufacturing, and lifetime costs (that's not a studied conclusion- just my opinion). During the 5 years I worked for Pella, I never heard talk of Steel cladding. My only guess would be that it is more difficult to work- especially in the field. Aluminum can be cut in the field with carpenter's tools. Steel can't. Does steel have less embodied energy than aluminum? I know that the factory applied finishes of steel siding are warranted against rust for a long, long time, so that's not really an issue. Ponderosa pine is an ideal material to make wood windows from in many respects. However, it does rot easily, and is not generally harvested "greenly". Perhaps there are other wood species with similar characteristics such as machineability and thermal performance, that would be naturally more rot resistant. Any wood scientists out there? Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 14:19:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA10567 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:19:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA04004 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:15:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04956; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:15:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11384 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:08:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout41.mail.aol.com (emout41.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.59]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA11380 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:08:56 -0400 (EDT) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout41.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA04914 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970925140823_1030731599@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Green Building in Los Angeles Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 168 I'm going to be in Los Angeles for the weekend (Sept 26-29). I'm interested in visiting recent examples of green architecture there. Anyone have any ideas? Rob Harrison Robert Harrison Architects Seattle, WA __lyrical sustainable design__ also... Editor, _EcoBuilding Times_ --a publication of the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 14:27:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA10608 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA06371 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:22:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA04996; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:15:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11479 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:10:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout41.mail.aol.com (emout41.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.59]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA11475 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:10:09 -0400 (EDT) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout41.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA05647 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970925140831_-1431136688@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Planted Roofs in Seattle Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 169 For a current residential project here near Seattle (a small house in Sharingwood Cohousing), I'm looking for information on planted roofs. Appropriate details, materials, plant species for this area, etc. Anyone have experience or sources? I'm imagining something like a mix of low-growing, blooming ground covers such as thyme, mint, heathers, some wildflowers (but all hopefully native species) on a perlite/vermiculite based soil, over EnkaDrain geotextile on elastomeric membrane roofing over stressed skin panels (non-CFC EPS insulation). Thanks. Rob Harrison Robert Harrison Architects Seattle, WA __lyrical sustainable design__ also... Editor, _EcoBuilding Times_ --a publication of the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 15:05:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA11017 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA17845 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:01:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA06813; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:00:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12899 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:53:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA12893 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA127512; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:52:39 -0600 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:52:38 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: RHDesign@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building in Los Angeles In-Reply-To: <970925140823_1030731599@emout13.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 170 Rob: If you can make it to Pomona & San Diego CA, then the "Center for Regenerative Studies" and the "Ridgehaven Municipal Building" respectively are very worthwhile, especially the first. Local listserve members can give you directions if interested. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 RHDesign@aol.com wrote: > > I'm going to be in Los Angeles for the weekend (Sept 26-29). I'm interested > in visiting recent examples of green architecture there. Anyone have any > ideas? > > Rob Harrison > Robert Harrison Architects > Seattle, WA > __lyrical sustainable design__ > > also... > > Editor, _EcoBuilding Times_ > --a publication of the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild-- > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 15:11:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA11096 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:11:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA19443 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:07:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA07025; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA13184 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:00:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA13180 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:00:32 -0400 (EDT) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA15595; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970925150210_-1263420666@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building in Los Angeles Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 171 Jorg said... >>If you can make it to Pomona & San Diego CA, then the "Center for Regenerative Studies" and the "Ridgehaven Municipal Building" respectively are very worthwhile, especially the first.<< Yes, I've seen the Center published--I'd like to see that. We are in fact going to San Diego as well. >> Local listserve members can give you directions if interested.<< Yes, we're interested! Rob ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 15:42:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA11442 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA28056 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA08224; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:36:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA14213 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:31:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from news1.radix.net (news1.radix.net [209.48.224.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA14209 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [209.48.224.40]) by news1.radix.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA04279 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:33:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from monk@localhost) by saltmine.radix.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA07919; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:33:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul S. Hetrick" Message-Id: <199709251933.PAA07919@saltmine.radix.net> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Insulating a new stone house. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 172 Hi Everybody, I'm buying a piece of land in Missouri that I hope to start building a house on in the spring. There are a lot of rocks from when the pasture was de-rocked years ago and I plan on using them as the primary building material. The house will be banked into the hillside as much as practically possible. I have a floor plan I like almost done, and started doing calculations on the energy budget. I need a cheap way of insulating the walls. I thought about building a strawbale wall inside of the stone wall, but that would make the walls very thick. I thought about making a double wall of stone/concrete but that doubles my work. I'd rather not build a studwall inside the stone wall just to have a place to put insulation, but I'm running out of choices. If I do build either an inner studwall or an inner stone/concrete wall and fill the gap with insulation, will straw work? I like the R-value numbers I see for strawbales, but would want to make the straw part thinner than a full bale. Has anybody looked a the insulating properties of straw that is not baled? Is there a known density for maximum R-value? Are there any natural insulators that will work well between a concrete roof and a layer of soil? About half of my roof will be underground. Thanks -->paul monk@radix.net | And when we find ourselves A Shaker Song Circa 1840 | In the place just right Author Unknown | 'Twill be in the valley Verse II | Of love and delight ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 17:44:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA13533 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA04126 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA12148; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:39:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA17944 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:34:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17938 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:34:06 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA00571 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970925173528_336856427@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: RodLambert@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: window performance Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 173 Rod asked: << Question: Is there performance data for windows over the long term - 5, 10,20 years?>> snip, and << we have installed triple glazed Winnipeg windows with fiberglas frames that appear to be good in most areas but have noticed a few structural things that make me wonder about their long term performance (although we are pretty pleased with them on the whole.) It seems to me test performances on brand new windows is not the whole picture. I once installed low - leakage, double weather stripped windows to later discover that the sun degenerated the strips to uselessness within 5 years. What about low-e argon windows? Does the argon eventually disperse over an unacceptably short time reducing the insulating value to dry air again? Does the film degenerate similarily? >> Rod, Unfortunately, you hit a home run with this line of thinking. Standards for "long term performance" and "performance degradation" have been LONG in DEVELOPMENT and short on application. BUT, Take Heart! There are some interesting activities afoot that are (hopefully) going to take some major steps toward the answers you seek. First, NFRC has a "long term energy performance" subcommittee that is about to initiate a very aggressive test program to evaluate how a few SPECIFIC performance indices change when subjected to accellerated weathering. (Aside.... there has been little agreement among the technical and standards community as to WHAT should be tested and HOW it should be tested) NFRC dodged THAT bullet (kinda) and developed its own proposed protocol (based in part on some of the unheeded suggestions of the past) and testing is about to begin on about 20 windows in a one-year program. Hot, cold, UV, operation, water, repeats, extremes, etc. (For details on the test plan, contact NFRC at 301-589-NFRC.) Prior to, during and followinf the testing, window air leakage and U-factor will be assessed. In theory, these values will be used to adjust the initial performance values based on the long term performance expectations for that particular product. Yes, this is STILL a long way off.... but you and those like you that are actually THINK about long term performance should get involved in this (and similar projects) to MAKE SURE THEY SUCCEED!!!! and the short answers to your questions include: Argon (and other gasses) WILL leak out over time (as long as the laws of physics and diffusion hold up) and will be replaced by air. In high performanece units this is particularly bad because the moisture laden air condenses on the metal surfaces of the films and coatings and corrosion (RUST) will result. "Low-e" will become "High-E" and energy performance goes (dare I say it?) out the wi...... The up-side is that a good IG unit's seal SHOULD last a pretty long time.... 20+ years? Standard rant about window and IG warranties..... read the fine print and pick a manufacturer that will be there and stand behind their product.... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 17:49:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA13595 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA05440 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA12403; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:45:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA18151 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:40:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emin38.mail.aol.com (emout40.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.74]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA18140; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:40:32 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: by emin38.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) id RAA02606; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:42:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:42:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970925173456_-663148183@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org, jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca Subject: GBlist: R-20 windows and other (possible) wastes... Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 174 Sorry list.... can't resist.... Regarding "leading edge" window developments, green and otherwise..... In the spirit of "whole building mindsets", and even though I am often one of the first to proclaim the benefits of energy efficient windows, I also believe that we do not NEED an R-20 window.... not that the technology that it might incorporate would be VERY interesting (and I will stay in the discussion because of that). We don't NEED one if we treat the house as a WHOLE and PLAN our window placement, performance requirements and longevity expectations... Our friends at LBNL and MIT and NREL and Los Alamos and other places have shown that windows can be net energy gainers.... both seasonally and annually.... heating and cooling.... especially when we view ALL aspects of window performance (U-factor, Solar Gain, Air leakage, etc.) We can easily show that a window with a fairly low U-factor, say 0.2 to 0.3 and a reasonable Solar Heat Gain Coefficient, maybe 0.4, can be nearly energy neutral in most of the US. WAIT! ... and in Canada, maybe a bit higher solar gain is needed and maybe a bit lower U-factor. Still, R-3.3 to 5.0 is a long way from R-20. and even if the surface temperatures would be a bit warmer and the condensation would be less, will the costs ever justify the MARGINAL increase in energy savings? and will the embodied energy of the technology ever BALANCE against these savings? OKOKOK, I'm not intending to squelch the discussion.... because it is needed as a part to raise the most BASIC levels of understanding about windows and the conservation opportunities with EXISTING technologies.... let alone electrochromics or vaccum or other "high tech" solutions.... (the passive solar hippie in me sighs loudly....) I just wish we would better use what we have today.... I wonder how much energy that would save? OH, we have the answer to THAT question... In a 1996 paper by Dariush Arasteh and Joe Eto at LBNL, they projected that if we could replace all existing residentiall windows with CURRENTLY AVAILABLE TECHNOLOGY, we could save about 4 quads..... annually..... that's 4 QUADRILION Btus..... about 1/20 of the total annual US consumption..... Of course, this issues is kinda like saying, do we need a 32 valve, fuel injected 350 horsepower car when Jorg's 440,000 km Honda is still going strong? (by the way, I drive a Honda too.....) Peace to all, Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 18:06:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA13880 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:06:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA09415 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:02:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA12187; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA18004 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:35:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17961; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:34:36 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA27818; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:37:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:37:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970925173529_2087562858@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org cc: TruNord@aol.com Subject: GBlist: window warranties Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 175 Friends, Several have commented about window and door performance and the range of manufacturer claims and warranties. I have considered putting together a list of "warranty things to look for".... Is this of interest to members of the list? Unnecessary? Should it be a group discussion? or taken off line? Not wanting to abuse the spirit or focus of the lists, I would appreciate your thoughts. Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 18:22:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA14040 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA12866 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:17:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA13248; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:14:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA18981 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:09:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from borderline.cpts.com (borderline.cpts.com [204.250.149.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA18977 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by BORDERLINE with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:13:36 -0700 Message-ID: <41C9C00E98A7D011828700606708162B06E9B3@BRASSBALLS> From: Glenn Minch To: "Paul S. Hetrick" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: Insulating a new stone house. Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:14:58 -0700 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 176 Hi Paul, I saw an article not long ago (I'm not sure where, but I will look for it this weekend if you're interested - perhaps someone else on the list is familar with this builder?) that detailed how to build an insulated stone wall. The builder is based in Montana, and he builds stone houses in Montana and Wyoming. His approach is to use the slip-form method, which uses a wooden form much like that used for poured concrete walls. The stone walls are built inside the form, which is then 'slipped' upward as the wall rises. This results in a uniform and plumb wall. The method is also said to reduce the labor and skill involved in constructing a stone wall, as the precise fitment of stones is unnecessary. The form holds everything in place until the motar cures. As I recall, he insulates the walls with a foam core. The foam is centered in the form, then the stones and mortar are added on each side of the foam. Short lengths of rebar tie the inner and outer stone walls together. I can't recall how thick the finished wall was but from what I remember of the pictures I'd guess that the wall was somewhere around 16" thick. I very much liked the look of the finished houses. They looked as if they'd always been there; very easy on the land. Regards, Glenn Minch > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul S. Hetrick [SMTP:monk@Radix.Net] > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 1997 12:33 PM > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: Insulating a new stone house. > > > Hi Everybody, > > I'm buying a piece of land in Missouri that I hope to start building a > > house on in the spring. There are a lot of rocks from when the > pasture > was de-rocked years ago and I plan on using them as the primary > building > material. The house will be banked into the hillside as much as > practically possible. I have a floor plan I like almost done, and > started doing calculations on the energy budget. I need a cheap way > of > insulating the walls. > > I thought about building a strawbale wall inside of the stone wall, > but > that would make the walls very thick. I thought about making a double > > wall of stone/concrete but that doubles my work. I'd rather not build > a > studwall inside the stone wall just to have a place to put insulation, > > but I'm running out of choices. > > If I do build either an inner studwall or an inner stone/concrete wall > > and fill the gap with insulation, will straw work? I like the R-value > > numbers I see for strawbales, but would want to make the straw part > thinner than a full bale. Has anybody looked a the insulating > properties > of straw that is not baled? Is there a known density for maximum > R-value? > > Are there any natural insulators that will work well between a > concrete > roof and a layer of soil? About half of my roof will be underground. > > Thanks > > -->paul > monk@radix.net | And when we find ourselves > A Shaker Song Circa 1840 | In the place just right > Author Unknown | 'Twill be in the valley > Verse II | Of love and delight > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 18:55:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA14395 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:55:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA21706 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:51:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA13909; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:49:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA20239 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:43:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from news1.radix.net (news1.radix.net [209.48.224.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA20235 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:43:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [209.48.224.40]) by news1.radix.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id SAA24608; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:45:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from monk@localhost) by saltmine.radix.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04919; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:45:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:45:34 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul S. Hetrick" Message-Id: <199709252245.SAA04919@saltmine.radix.net> To: glennm@cpts.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <41C9C00E98A7D011828700606708162B06E9B3@BRASSBALLS> (message from Glenn Minch on Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:14:58 -0700) Subject: RE: GBlist: Insulating a new stone house. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 177 Glenn, I plan on using the slip-form method to build my house. It seems to be a great low-expertice way to build good-looking and strong walls. From what I've been able to find though the foam-core insulating boards are too expencive and to high of risk of out-gassing, though the later would be somewhat seeled and could be vented. Thanks. -->paul monk@radix.net | And when we find ourselves A Shaker Song Circa 1840 | In the place just right Author Unknown | 'Twill be in the valley Verse II | Of love and delight ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 19:07:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA14504 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:07:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA25225 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:02:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA14056; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA20406 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:49:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA20393 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:49:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.142.229.17] (mke-1-1.binc.net [208.142.229.17]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA111830; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:51:36 -0500 Message-Id: <199709252251.RAA111830@glacier.binc.net> Subject: RE: GBlist: Insulating a new stone house. Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 17:00:15 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "Glenn Minch" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 178 There's a lister out there somewhere who uses scraps of stress skin panels in masonry walls. Sounds ingenious and resourseful. His web address is: http://www.slic.com/~barkeatr Chris Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 19:20:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA14647 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:20:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA28308 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:15:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA14866; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:05:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA20733 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:01:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from news1.radix.net (news1.radix.net [209.48.224.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA20728 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:01:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [209.48.224.40]) by news1.radix.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id TAA26514 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from monk@localhost) by saltmine.radix.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA07445; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:03:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul S. Hetrick" Message-Id: <199709252303.TAA07445@saltmine.radix.net> To: greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <199709252251.RAA111830@glacier.binc.net> (message from Chris & Ruth Koehn on Thu, 25 Sep 97 17:00:15 -0000) Subject: RE: GBlist: Insulating a new stone house. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 179 Chris, > There's a lister out there somewhere who uses scraps of stress skin > panels in masonry walls. Sounds ingenious and resourseful. > > His web address is: > > http://www.slic.com/~barkeatr I looked into stress skin panels (mainly for the roof) and decided they were too expensive. I never thought about using scraps! As one who has found hundreds of uses for sink cutouts from counter material, I hang my head in shame I did not think of the window & door cutouts from SKP's. I'll have to see how close any SKP manufacturers are to the building site. Thanks for the tip. (Oh, I know that some foams don't outgas. The ones I could find that had a high enough R-value to dollar ratio at least sounded like they might.) -->paul monk@radix.net | And when we find ourselves A Shaker Song Circa 1840 | In the place just right Author Unknown | 'Twill be in the valley Verse II | Of love and delight ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 20:50:56 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA18232 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:50:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA20623 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:46:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA16924; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:44:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA23078 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:39:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ns.waonline.com (ns.waonline.com [208.192.52.129]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA23073 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 20:39:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from davidmel (1Cust102.max6.san-francisco.ca.ms.uu.net [153.35.236.102]) by ns.waonline.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA20652; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <342B04A0.714D@waonline.com> Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:41:04 -0700 From: David Seth Melchert X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CrawfordPS@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Graduate schools offering Sustainable Design References: <199709221453.KAA01082@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 180 > > Paul: ------------------------------------------ > >Dear sirs, > > > >Could you please let me know how I can find out which architecture schools > >offer graduate programs in architecture, with an emphasis on Sustainable > >Design. > Try the San francisco institute of architecture, 555 Howard Street, SF 94105. 415 543-6121. They have a 4-year program, and one year is dedicated entirely to ecological design, with instruction from such folks as Penny Livingstone (permaculture), and Sym Van der Ryn (Ecological Design). Good Luck! Seth Melchert Master Builders ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 25 21:21:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA18498 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA26732 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA17350; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:17:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA23646 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:12:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.greenbuilder.com (web4.gomedia.com [204.96.111.84]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA23642 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:12:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:24:46 +0000 Date: Thu, 25 Sep 97 20:29:40 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: InfiNet Subject: GBlist: natural building workshop To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <4541805.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 181 This is an update on the previous posting for our Central Texas cob workshop. Ianto has added and enriched the curriculum. This residence will be the second in Central Texas. The first, The Cob Cottage at Rainbow Ranch, will be on the Green Building Tour which follows two days of the 6th Annual Green Building Conference in Austin, Texas. A Natural Building Workshop November 3 - 9, 1997 in Blanco County, Texas Ianto Evans of The Cob Cottage Company, assisted by his wife Linda Smiley and Austin's Gayle Borst, will lead this intensive, hands-on learning experience for both owner-builders and people wanting to work professionally with natural materials. Architects, designers, advanced cobbers, construction craft specialists and artisans are encouraged to attend. Topics Advanced cobbing techniques, design and structure, new developments in mixing and building, pushing the limits of cob, vaults and domes, materials evaluation, foundation options, earth floors, natural plasters, and integration of various related crafts such as metal, wood, ceramics, etc. Curriculum depends on participants' priorities. The project A small residence with sleeping loft on 14 beautiful acres in Central Texas bordering the Blanco River and bisected by a seasonal creek. Numerous oak, juniper and pecan trees, grass and wildflower meadows, and limestone outcroppings can be found. Weather likely to be most excellent. Rain possible. Fee $495 for 7 days. Includes demonstrations, site visits to related buildings, instructional materials, resource library, nutritious meals, camping sites, showers, community building and more. Limited to 23. Confirm registration with $100. Detailed letter will follow. Information Dr. Yvonne Hansen- 512-447-0459 or . Gayle Borst - 512-478-9033 or < gayle_borst@greenbuilder.com> -- Yvonne Hansen GeminIdeas@greenbuilder.com Green Building Conference 10/30-11/2/1997 http://www.greenbuilder.com/conference/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sustainable Sources - Internet Solutions with an Environmental Perspective info@greenbuilder.com BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 00:22:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA24221 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:22:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA10698 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:17:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA22131; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA26441 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:06:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from slic.com (winthrop.slic.com [206.25.233.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA26437 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:06:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from barkeatr.slic.com (bombay07.slic.com [206.150.84.72]) by slic.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.0) with ESMTP id AAA11819; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709260402.AAA11819@slic.com> Reply-To: From: "Barkeater Design Co." To: "Paul S. Hetrick" , Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulating a new stone house. Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:58:20 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 182 Hi Paul Im that lister, part time lurker, who uses the stress skin panel (SSP)scraps. Our local SSP maker has lots of misorders, mistakes and just scrap all of which is not much use to anyone due to its thickness (8-12") and varied shapes. This SSP manuf is also a timber frame outfit and I think they chuckle a bit when we show up........ Slipformers, you should know, are the lowest form of mason :). I did get some prices from this fellow on new (plain)styrofoam insulation and it was quite cheap. (But not as cheap as a case of homebrew or a donation to thier demolition derby car!)Styrofoam of course, is relatively low in R value but does not produce HFCs and doesnt seem quite as nasty. There is probably a good chance there is a stress skin panel fabricator near you, thier wieght tends to force a more regional network of manuf. Check out my web page http://www.slic.com/~barkeatr/, we are just finishing the stonework now. Our wall is a double stone wall in most of our house, we have got the each wall thin enough that we feel both walls are working together. We are going to do a few of our last walls with a interior wood finish. In this case we will use SSPs with plywood on the inside and just slipform the outside like normal. You will notice on our web page that our walls slope gently to the inside. This makes a wall thick enough to form it own footing at the bottom and thinner and cheaper on top were less strength is needed. It is quite gracefull too. The stonework has taken two summers, largely by myself, part time. I think If you had more walls that were only one side of stone, and a crew of 2-3 and you could build very fast. It is a nice way to build, you can still spend time with your family ect. It is very organic, as the house was changing just ahead of what was cast in stone! The walls will sit the winter unroofed. The wall sits on two inches of dow blueboard and our last thing to do before winter is to extend that insulation on both sides of the wall 3-4 feet. This will keep the ground below from freezing, and allow us to save some money this winter for the rest of the house. We have spent a little more than 4000 dollars so far, probably about as much as the closing costs and lawyers fees would be on a store bought home! I am going to build the windows this winter, and I am keeping an eye on the window thread. We have large overhangs and I feel homemade windows will be subject to less (or none) rain ect. Anyone out there know of good sources on homemade windows? Sorry for the long rant, its been a long summer talking to stones! take care Tim McCarthy Barkeater Design Build Company ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 07:04:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA27673 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:04:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA22939 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA26447; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA01016 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:53:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA01012 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.17.119] (pm0a19.bf.sover.net [204.71.17.119]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA28386 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:55:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199709260402.AAA11819@slic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:59:29 -0500 To: From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: Foam insulation and blowing agents terminology Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 183 This stuff may not seem important, until you're trying to get an accurate, technically correct answer from someone. Your work sounds great, Tim. Now, to clear a couple of issues with the materials you're using: >Styrofoam of course, is relatively low in R value but does not produce >HFCs and doesnt seem quite as nasty. > Styrofoam(TM) is trademark of the Dow Chemical Company for their EXTRUDED Polystyrene (XPS) Insulation. This is the closed-cell stuff, also known as "blueboard", and it _DOES_ contain ozone-depleting HCFCs. It's the same as Owens Corning's pink board, which used to called Foamular(TM) from UC Industries. The "plain, white stuff" you're talking about is probably EXPANDED polystyrene (EPS), also known as "beadboard". It is blown with the hydrocarbon pentane, which does not affect the ozone layer. Now, about those initials: HCFC = hydrochlorofluorocarbon, which is less damaging to the ozone layer than CFC (= chlorofluorocarbon) by about 1/20, but still an issue. HFC = hydrofluorocarbon, which contains no chlorine, hence doesn't bother the ozone at all. Some of these are starting to replace HCFCs in refrigeration and cooling equipment, and in some spray foams and foam sealants (details in the forthcoming October issue of EBN). Sorry for being so picky, but these things get confused so often! Nadav Malin Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 08:00:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA28058 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:00:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA02037 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA26923; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:51:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA01589 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:47:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA01585; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41444; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:46:50 -0600 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:46:50 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: RCMathis1@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org, TruNord@aol.com Subject: Re: GBlist: window warranties In-Reply-To: <970925173529_2087562858@emout11.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 184 Chris: If your list is tangible and practical for the common homeowner, professional contractor and ecodesigner, then I too would be interested in this contribution. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 RCMathis1@aol.com wrote: > > Friends, > > Several have commented about window and door performance and the range of > manufacturer claims and warranties. I have considered putting together a > list of "warranty things to look for".... > > Is this of interest to members of the list? Unnecessary? Should it be a > group discussion? or taken off line? > > Not wanting to abuse the spirit or focus of the lists, I would appreciate > your thoughts. > > Chris Mathis > MCSquared > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 10:33:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA04185 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:33:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA04253 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:28:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA00305; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA04256 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:19:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail1.eni.net (mail1.eni.net [205.214.51.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA04252 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:19:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.nrdc.org (mail.nrdc.org [207.168.63.2]) by mail1.eni.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA21664 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:22:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ccMail by mail.nrdc.org (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 00039884; Fri, 26 Sep 97 10:25:09 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:16:43 -0400 Message-ID: <00039884.@nrdc.org> From: rwatson@nrdc.org (Rob Watson) Subject: GBlist: 'Forest-friendly' building report To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: SYassa@nrdc.org (Sami Yassa) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 185 The Natural Resources Defense Council has written a draft report entitled: "Saving Wood, Saving Money, Saving Trees: A Handbook on Efficient Wood-use For Building Industry Professionals in California" Though the target audience is in California, we suspect that others will be interested too. NRDC would like to solicit the comments of the green building professionals who frequent this list on the technical content and utility of this report. Please contact Robert Watson at or Sami Yassa at for a copy. Thanks in advance for your interest. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 11:31:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04897 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:31:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA25144 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA02302; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA05832 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:17:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (bentnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.14.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA05828 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:17:52 -0400 (EDT) From: liverjx@nu.com Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 8525651E.005418B2 ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:18:33 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <8525651E.00532ECE.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:20:47 -0400 Subject: GBlist: Fluorescent Lights: off or on? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 186 With the goal of optimally operating a "green building" once the occupants have arrived, I have a question regarding fluorescent lighting. Does anybody know how the startup ballast energy requirements of a fluorescent fixutre relate to the amount of energy saved by turning the fixture off for a period of time? Or in other words, if one is leaving their office for 1/2 hour, does it make "energy sense" to turn off the fluorescent lights or leave them on? And what is the threshold time period where it no longer makes "energy sense" to turn the lights off. I would imagine that the time period depends somewhat on whether the ballast is magnetic or electronic. If anybody has any insight into this commonly asked question, I welcome your input. Thank you. John Livermore ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 12:48:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06538 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:48:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA18537 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04525; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA08234 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:36:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA08230 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:36:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.163.118.21] (ip-bend1-19.teleport.com [206.163.118.21]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA16625 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709261639.JAA16625@mail1.teleport.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: request for info on 4-Times Square Date: Fri, 26 Sep 97 09:46:07 -0000 x-sender: endura@mail.teleport.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Ed Mays To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 187 I just received some info from two new consulting/marketing organizations in New York city. One is called e-kol-o-ji and they sent me some flyers in a portfolio about several large projects in New York. Donald Trump is also now planning to renovate another tower in NY he recently bought with environmental enhancments. One whole floor of this new Trump building will be devoted to showcasing environmental products and technologies and leased by a new company called Eco-Smart Healthy Properties, Inc.. The 4-Times square project is being developed by the Durst family, well known in NY sky scraper office tower development circles. This new office tower is described as the "first office tower to be built in New york city in nearly a decade, features many highlights, from unique technological elements to first-ever environmental advancements." It will be a 48 story, 1.6 million square foot office building, and is the largest structure being built in the country at this time. The architects are Fox & Fowle Architects and Tishman Construction is the contractor. The Durst organization can be reached via e-mail at www.durstny.com By the way there is a large conference/trade show, The National Marketplace for the Environment in Washington D.C.(Washington Convention Center) November 18-20 in which there will be a 1750SF pavillion, "Enviro-Tech" Office Building of the 21st Century(ETOB) devoted to displaying examples of environmental building design and materials. The whole show encompasses a 150,000SF conference hall layed out by the 16 divisions of the CSI. This show is aimed at marketing to federal, state and local governments, key segments of the private sector and buyers from around the world they say. It is being organized by the same people that do the Eco Expo and The Environmental Education Group. They are reachable in Sherman Oaks, CA by phone at 818-906-2700. ************************************************************** ENDURA HARDWOODS AND WOODWORKS Fine Hardwoods and Products that are Soft on the Environment 2401 NW Marken St. Ph: 541-383-5003 Fax: 541-317-8391 Bend, OR 97701 e-mail: endura@teleport.com ************************************************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 13:06:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06791 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:06:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA23100 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:02:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA05445; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:02:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA09003 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:57:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.vcr.istar.ca (mail.vcr.iSTAR.ca [204.191.152.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA08998 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:57:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ian [204.191.155.103] by mail.vcr.istar.ca with smtp (Exim 1.70 #1) id 0xEdjq-0001ct-00; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:59:36 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970926100704.006c4a70@wimsey.com> X-Sender: igt@wimsey.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:07:04 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Ian Theaker Subject: GBlist: LA "green" buildings Cc: RHDesign@aol.com In-Reply-To: <199709260602.CAA27902@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 188 Hello, Rob & GB Listers, Deborah Weintraub, ex-business development officer of the Canadian LA consulate, and a member of the LA AIA Envrionment Ctte., organised a tour of "green' buildings last year, which I found out about only after the fact :-( I'd passed this along to Jorg earlier, but thought it might be useful to the List in general. Love to hear your comments. Ian Theaker, P.Eng. Center for Regenerative Studies A must-see - good luck though, with only one weekend.... They're following in the footsteps of the New Alchemists in aquaculture and water treatment; their climate responsive buildings were very comfortable last summer in 90F+ heat. If you contact them first, they may have a bed for you to stay - well worth hanging around for throughout a day, to check out solar angles, overhangs, etc. Check on status of their plans for the next phase, and how well the gardens work is done, with short-term, semester scheduled help. Rob ? is now resident manager, taking over from Steve Nawrath last year. 8th District Constituent Services Centre I think this is what was meant by "Ridgehaven Municipal Building (?)". Address is 8475 South Vermont. Concentrated on meterials selection & water conservation (seems to be a common thread thru SoCal design - *not* energy-efficiency); less impressive mechanical / climate-responsive design. Architects were Thomas Jeffries & Raymond Wright. (I haven't been there myself, but picked up some bumf.) Lehrer House (address?) Heard about this one in Arch. Record. Architect is David Hertz of Syndesis in Santa Monica; house is made of "Syndecrete", his proprietary(?) concrete with high recycled (fly-ash?) content. Again, concentrated on materials selection, but also apparently on climate-responsive - especially natural cooling/ventilation design, c/w a solar tower to induce stack effect. John Picards' House (12915 Greene Avenue, LA; (310) 821-7762) John Picard seems to be successful in promoting enviro-responsible design to big biz (primarily movie studios), and his house was deemed to be worth seeing in the AIA tour. SoCal Gas Co's. Energy Resource Center (9420 Firestone Blvd, Downey, CA; (310) 803-7400; Manager - Diane Morrison) Exhibition hall and seminar rooms, with displays of gas tech. More a display of EE & recycled material technology than a green building; mechanicals very complex to show off capability. They're proud of the fact that the building is salvaged, and their use of recycled / salvaged materials; unfortunately little daylighting, lots of electric display lighting, and few passive cooling / climate responsive features that I could see. Check out their absorption chillers, main reception desk finish of recycled glass (very nice), and their feature steel wall made from recycled guns. Sony Pictures Child Development Center (Clarington Ave, be3tween Venice & Washington Blvds. (310) 998-8550; Lora Peterson, of Bright Horizons, managers of the Center) Don't know almost anything about this one. Waste Management Inc. Biltmore Towers (Suite 1710, 500 S. Grand Ave. (213)239-6681), Gary Petersen) Again, this was included on the tour, but I don't know much else about it. Use of recycled / reclaimed materials? LA EcoVillage (contact Ian McIlvaine, Tierra Sol y Mar, (310) 392-2775) These folks are concentrating more on community economic development & local food production in deepest darkest East LA, rather than green buildings, but they've acquired an apartment building and intended to retrofit it for EE. High ambitions, little funding... sigh. >On Thu, 25 Sep 1997 RHDesign@aol.com wrote: > >> >> I'm going to be in Los Angeles for the weekend (Sept 26-29). I'm interested >> in visiting recent examples of green architecture there. Anyone have any >> ideas? >> >> Rob Harrison >> Robert Harrison Architects >> Seattle, WA >> __lyrical sustainable design__ >> >> also... >> >> Editor, _EcoBuilding Times_ >> --a publication of the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild-- - -- --- ----- -------- ------------- --------------------- ---------------------------------- Sheltair Scientific Ltd. Ste. 2 - 3661 West Fourth Avenue Vancouver, BC V6R 1P2 fax: (604) 732-9238 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 13:46:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA09370 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA05376 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:42:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA06542; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA10086 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:36:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x6.boston.juno.com ([207.205.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA10082 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:36:11 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NfX27417; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:37:05 EDT To: liverjx@nu.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:44:11 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Fluorescent Lights: off or on? Message-ID: <19970926.124419.3662.0.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <8525651E.00532ECE.00@nunotesmta2.nu.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,9-10,15-16,22-23,27-28,32-33,37-71 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 189 Your question is related to one of the great urban myths of our time. That myth being, "We use more electricity turning a light on and off than just leaving it on." This myth got started (who knows where) because when we turn on any electrical appliance we add an extra load to an electric grid. The added load is like a vacuum that invites electron activity or electricity to rush in. As you know, nature hates a vacuum, and that is precisely what the electricity does is rush in and create electric vibrations in the device we wish to use. This is called a peak inrush. The initial rush of electricity can be quite large and violent. It can blow open incandescent filaments. But it is very brief (microseconds) and is more pressure than force. After inrush a balance and a regular current flow is achieved and we see work as light or motion. If you are purchasing power from the power company your concern should be that you purchase power by the kilowatt hour ($0.10 is typical). This is a measurement of supply based on time. There are no additional charges for the peak inrush. You will realize the greatest savings when you use an electrical appliance with the lowest power requirements for the smallest period of time . If you are producing your own power with a solar, wind or water generating system then you may not care about peak inrush or how much time you use a electrical appliance as long as you don't exceed your system capacity. Regarding fluorescent lighting, as with most products the newer products tend to be more efficient than older products. You can compare the claimed efficiency by determining the product's voltage and current requirements. This should be labeled on any electrical appliance. The electronic ballast tend to be somewhat more efficient because they are not as dependent upon the peak inrush to get them started. They build up a charge to get them started. The ultimate factor is the electrical requirements of the products on the load. On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:20:47 -0400 liverjx@nu.com writes: > >With the goal of optimally operating a "green building" once the >occupants >have arrived, I have a question regarding fluorescent lighting. Does >anybody know how the startup ballast energy requirements of a >fluorescent >fixutre relate to the amount of energy saved by turning the fixture >off for >a period of time? Or in other words, if one is leaving their office >for >1/2 hour, does it make "energy sense" to turn off the fluorescent >lights or >leave them on? And what is the threshold time period where it no >longer >makes "energy sense" to turn the lights off. > >I would imagine that the time period depends somewhat on whether the >ballast is magnetic or electronic. If anybody has any insight into >this >commonly asked question, I welcome your input. Thank you. > >John Livermore > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 14:35:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA14281 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:35:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18466 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:30:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08775; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11664 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:27:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA11659 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:27:01 -0400 (EDT) From: healthyp@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA06511 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:29:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:29:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nyc-ny19-19.ix.netcom.com(205.186.166.179) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma006464; Fri Sep 26 13:28:06 1997 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-Id: <19979261435366334@ix.netcom.com> Subject: GBlist: 4 Times Square and other green buildings X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.20, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 190 I just received the message from Ed Mays at Endura Hardwoods. I am the researcher for EcoSmart Healthy Properties,LLC, and I thought that if anyone is looking for information about green buildings, please contact us. We are currently renovating the entire 23rd floor of Trump's new building at 40 Wall Street, NYC. The floor will be the "office of the future" as well as a showplace for environmentally safe building products and services. We have other projects in the works, such as 'greening UNEP's offices' as well as renovating an office building in Philly into an environmental hotel. Any questions about us or our projects, please contact Robyn Heller at 212.758.1815. Robyn Heller EcoSmart Healthy Properties ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 14:53:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA14550 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA24008 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:48:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09295; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12224 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:44:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from news1.radix.net (news1.radix.net [209.48.224.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA12220 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [209.48.224.40]) by news1.radix.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA27224; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from monk@localhost) by saltmine.radix.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12079; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:47:06 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul S. Hetrick" Message-Id: <199709261847.OAA12079@saltmine.radix.net> To: sbtauto@juno.com CC: liverjx@nu.com, greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <19970926.124419.3662.0.sbtauto@juno.com> Subject: Re: GBlist: Fluorescent Lights: off or on? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 191 One more thing about modern Flourescents. I read an article somewhere not long ago that said when you consider bulb and balast life the best policy is when you turn a flourescent light on leave it on long enough to warm up to operating temps. When you turn one off, leave it off at least until it cools. This is about a minute either way. Short cycling does really hurt bulb life and has some bad effects of balasts as well. -->paul monk@radix.net | And when we find ourselves A Shaker Song Circa 1840 | In the place just right Author Unknown | 'Twill be in the valley Verse II | Of love and delight ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 14:57:54 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA14596 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA25518 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:53:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09109; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:44:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12079 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:40:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from news1.radix.net (news1.radix.net [209.48.224.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA12074 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:40:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saltmine.radix.net (saltmine.radix.net [209.48.224.40]) by news1.radix.net (8.8.5/8.8.3) with ESMTP id OAA26877; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from monk@localhost) by saltmine.radix.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA11535; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:42:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:42:24 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul S. Hetrick" Message-Id: <199709261842.OAA11535@saltmine.radix.net> To: sbtauto@juno.com CC: liverjx@nu.com, greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <19970926.124419.3662.0.sbtauto@juno.com> Subject: Re: GBlist: Fluorescent Lights: off or on? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 192 > Your question is related to one of the great urban myths of our time. > That myth being, "We use more electricity turning a light on and off than > just leaving it on." Actually it's not a myth, just a bit outdated. The old-fashioned flourecent lights could use about 10 times their normal power when first started. I'm talking about the the ones that when you turned them on you could see their ends glow for a short while and then they would flicker for a while and finallt stabilize. The neon starters they used were power hogs. > This is called a peak inrush. The initial rush of electricity can be > quite large and violent. It can blow open incandescent filaments. But > it is very brief (microseconds) and is more pressure than force. After > inrush a balance and a regular current flow is achieved and we see work > as light or motion. What blows incandescents is the thermal shock on the filament. The rapid expantion from heating up can cause the britle wire to break. -->paul monk@radix.net | And when we find ourselves A Shaker Song Circa 1840 | In the place just right Author Unknown | 'Twill be in the valley Verse II | Of love and delight ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 15:35:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15312 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:35:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA05597 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09970; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA13102 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:14:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m20.boston.juno.com (m20.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.190]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA13098 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bandjf@juno.com) by m20.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PoY04053; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:15:54 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: RE: Air Exchangers/ Attic Insulation Message-ID: <19970926.150849.4567.0.BANDJF@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,7 From: bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:15:54 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 193 Hi All- I just couldn't let more time go buy without sending out a very big thank you for all the responses I received. I haven't been able to get on my computer till today, very briefly- due to the fact that I am trying to re-cooperate from a health situation. I will answer as much of these wonderful replies, as I can when I am better The responses have been so helpful. Once again, your help has been so appreciated. Until I'm a bit better- Thanks- Beth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 26 17:46:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA16860 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:46:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA12327 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA13830; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA16786 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:34:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA16782 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (dial-21-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.21]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA01137 for ; Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:35:53 -0400 Message-ID: <342C2AA5.3922@together.net> Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:35:33 -0400 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Fluorescent Lights: off or on? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 194 John: When adjusting the time delay period for office lighting occupancy sensors, common practice in the industry today is to use a 5 to 7 minute delay before turning the fixtures off. This is what most manufacturer field sales reps will advise. I have specified these values with good results and no ""apparant"" premature equipment failures. I'm speaking of the electranic ballasts, T-8 florescent fixtures.... typical modern high efficiency lamps. Once I questioned a manufacturer about the basis of the delay recomendations. They cited testing and studies, which I can no longer recall, from industry trade accociations whose names were well known. Tom Anderson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 27 09:25:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA28289 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA07411 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:21:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23687; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:21:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA27986 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:16:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA27982 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:16:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.66] (pm1a11.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.141]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA17989 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:18:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 09:18:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Fluorescent Lights: off or on? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 195 Regarding the energy impacts of turning fluorescents on and off, there was some great dialog on the Greenbuilding list a long time ago about this issue. As I recall, someone provided highly detailed mathematical analysis demonstrating that the extra energy consumed during start-up would be repaid extremely quickly through off-time, but that there were some other considerations as well that slightly lengthened the appropriate off-time. This doesn't appear to be one of the threads that we compiled and archive on our Web site (http://www.ebuild.com), but as far as I know the entire discussion is archived on the CREST Web site--but may take more time to find. It's worth digging up. By the way, I've just finished an article on the issue of mercury in fluorescent lamps and PCBs in pre-1979 fluorescent ballasts. That will be in the October issue of Environmental Building News. The bottom line is that during relamping, the importance of properly disposing of both lamps and PCB ballasts is tremendous. This costs money--about 40 cents per 4-foot lamp and a few dollars per ballast, but it is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL. The cost of this disposal (recycling) should be factored into the cost of relamping. (Incidentally, I remain highly supportive of fluorescent lighting, despite the toxics concerns--we just need to deal with them properly at the end of the life cycle.) Also, I recommend choosing Phillips lamps. Their new ALTO line (which should account for 80% of all their fluorescents by year-end) has mercury levels that are about one-fifth of the industry average. Also, of the big-three lamps manufacturers--General Electric, Osram Sylvania, and Phillips--only Phillips opposes a regulation being considered by EPA to "conditionally exempt" fluorescent lamps from hazardous waste disposal regulations. That conditional exemption would be very bad. I rarely make such a strong product recommendation. -Alex Wilson, Editor and Publisher Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 27 13:15:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06869 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:15:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA23058 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:11:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA25699; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:10:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA01073 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:05:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM ([207.49.88.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA01069 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM by rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ba015003 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:07:03 -0400 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Peter Yost" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 13:08:52 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Positherm building system X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) X-Info: NT Mail Server Message-Id: <20070304600699@NAHBRC.ORG> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 196 Has anyone heard of a product called Positherm Building Systems? It's a panelized product for walls and roofs. It's made of 60% recycled agriculture products?? Peter Yost pyost@nahbrc.org 301-249-4000 x542 http://www.nahbrc.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 27 14:27:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA07239 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:27:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA09668 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA26649; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:22:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA02115 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:17:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA02110 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:17:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.163.118.25] (ip-bend1-23.teleport.com [206.163.118.25]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA12070 for ; Sat, 27 Sep 1997 11:19:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199709271819.LAA12070@mail1.teleport.com> Subject: GBlist: Economic viability of environmentally responsible building Date: Sat, 27 Sep 97 11:26:57 -0000 x-sender: endura@mail.teleport.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Ed Mays To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id OAA07239 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 197 I thought the following article might be of interest as it gives a good short summary explanation of the possible positive economic benefits of environmentally responsible building which would apply to residential as well as commercial building. The author of this July 1997 article from New York Construction News, Barry Dimson, is president of EcoSmart Healthy Properties, LLC.. This company is renovating the whole 23rd floor(23,000SF) of 40 Wall Street(a 72 story landmark building in lower Manhattan)as a hi tech environmental showcase of healthy and environmentally responsible office building techniques and materials. If you have further questions they can be reached at 40 Wall Street, New York, NY 10005, ph: 212.430.4000, fax: 212.430.4029, e-mail: healthyp@ix.netcom.com. "A lot of owners and developers fear that an environmentally responsible building might cost them a great deal more than a conventional building perhaps up to 10 percent more. They're wary of this up-front cost even though they know that they'll recoup that differential in less than five years through energy savings. But I believe that up-front costs are comparable. So, those energy savings, as well as other factors discussed below, are pure profit for as long as the building stands. Twenty percent of the cost of a typical office building or apartment house will be that of acquiring the land. About 55 percent is the "hard" cost of construction, and another 25 percent goes to "soft" costs such as carrying charges and design fees. Now, if you assume that at least half of the hard cost (i.e., 27.5 percent of the total cost) goes for excavation, foundations and superstructure, then you're left with only another 27.5 percent going into the building's "skin:' mechanical equipment and other building materials. Therefore, even if the systems and material cost 10 percent more up front, that only translates to a premium of 2.75 percent over the total cost! Contrast this with the potential savings in "soft" costs. Typically, more than 50 percent of the total soft costs comes from carrying the building while it's being rented Fifty percent of the 25 percent of the total outlay that soft costs £~ resent comes to 12.5 percent of the total cost. But suppose the building rents up six months faster than expected because it's environmentally responsible! In that case, savings in soft costs will immediately more than exceed any increase in hard costs. We're convinced that environmentally responsible buildings will not only rent up faster, but will rent for a higher amount if the benefits are properly marketed to tenants. The first obvious savings to a tenant is in energy consumption, which can be cut in half through the use of energy efficient technology. Electricity usually costs from $2 to $3 per square foot - but with modern technology, we can cut that to $1.50 or even as low as a dollar! Tenants will realize even greater savings through the increased productivity of their work forces. In the New York City area the average employee receives about $40,000 per year, including all benefits. That same employee occupies approximately 200 square feet of space, so the cost of the employee is approximately $200 per square foot). If better air quality and better lighting increase that worker's productivity by 10 percent that translates to again of $20per square foot in saved labor cost to the employer. Recent studies of environmentally responsible buildings show productivity increases of 15 percent, as well as reductions in absenteeism and health claims, so a 10 percent productivity increase is a reasonable assumption. It makes sense for tenants to pay $2 to $5 more per square foot in rent to achieve such efficiencies. Here you have the basic economic principles of environmentally responsible buildings. Certainly, tenants must be educated in order to appreciate the savings, and owners and developers must be educated to see that the total project cost is not always much higher.... Owners, developers and tenants will inevitably realize significant economic benefits from environmentally responsible buildings; what's more, these buildings will benefit their occupants' health and quality of life, as well as the environment as a whole." ************************************************************** ENDURA HARDWOODS AND WOODWORKS Fine Hardwoods and Products that are Soft on the Environment 2401 NW Marken St. Ph: 541-383-5003 Fax: 541-317-8391 Bend, OR 97701 e-mail: endura@teleport.com ************************************************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 28 11:45:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA13053 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA20891 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:40:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22359; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA26077 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:36:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.1.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA26065; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [199.174.143.204] (dd26-204.dub.compuserve.com [199.174.143.204]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA09171; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:38:21 -0700 Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 08:38:21 -0700 Message-Id: <199709281538.IAA09171@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: Upcoming Conferences To: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 198 More Conferences of Note: 28 Sept. 1997 ........................................................................... 1. EEBA'97 Denver, November 5-8, 1997 http://www.eeba.org/confinfo97.htm (being updated!) 2. FREE'97 Indianapolis, IN November 1997 http://www.hers-council.org/free-97/free97-update.htm And, for additional energy and "green" events info, try http://www.eeba.org/events.htm ---------------< Contact Information >----------------- Mr. Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, Maryland 20773 USA bdhoward@ix.netcom.com <--> http://www.nrg-builder.com Voice# 410-867-8000 fax# 301-889-0889 ------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 28 11:52:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA13107 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA22629 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:47:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA22464; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:43:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA26147 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:38:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pathway1.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [204.191.122.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26143 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:38:45 -0400 (EDT) From: timex@pathcom.com Received: from ts15l10.pathcom.com (ts15l10.pathcom.com [209.112.17.61]) by pathway1.pathcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA25853 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:41:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199709281541.LAA25853@pathway1.pathcom.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:37:31 +0000 Subject: GBlist: Recycling of Construction material Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 199 Greenbuilders: The following is an article that I think you all should read. http://www.salonmagazine.com/sept97/news/newsreal.html What is the situation with your own recycling places? Marilyn http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Keep on keepin' on. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 28 12:20:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA13384 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA29028 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:15:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA25635; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:14:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA28161 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:10:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA28155 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 12:10:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA03330; Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:10:06 -0700 Message-ID: <342E80BA.EA1EAEB4@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:07:22 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: GBlist slip form walls X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 200 There was some recent discussion on the use of foam as the insul. for a masonry sandwich. There was also some discussion about a month or so ago where I mentioned that we have used EPS foam for both slip form rock walls and concrete walls. EPS foam (used by itself) is quite inexpensive. It is expanded with pentane which dissipates very rapidly from the time of manuf. - at the point of installation it generally can be considered inert. The plastic itself (a benzene polymer) is considered stable within normal temperature ranges. I have never been entirely comfortable with using plastic especially chlorinated plastics but given the need to insulate and provide some barrier for moisture transmission and do this at a reasonable cost - this product works. My only concern is with proper application as water diffusing through the conc. can run on the surface and collect in openings or breaks in the masonry. One alternatives that I have not worked with but given time would like to incorporate are: Mineralwool in higher densities. Roxul, Fibrex and probably other companies manufacture high density mineral wool boards in varying thickness (up to 6"?). Some are manuf. as a insulating drainboard, others as a high thermal resist. for industrial applications. Rvalues are approx. 4/inch and the material would be free draining which could be an advantage. Urea formaldehyde is used as a binder (approx.2% content) the fibres are larger and coarser than the equiv. glass products which should reduce risk in exposure. Use of a mineral wool board would not provide any moisture barrier but I'm not sure that this is a problem and might be an asset as the wall material itself (depending on cement content and curing) has a degree of moisture resistance, is not a material that will suffer from periodic high contents of moisture (care in detailing as moisture can be transferred to other materials). Air and moisture filtration and diffusion characteristics of the wall are calculable and might (should/could) be used to some benefit. Perhaps the most interesting (for my sensibility) alternative to investigate for slip form walls is the insulating potential of the concrete binding mix itself. As long as sufficient strength or stiffness remains to bind the rock material a large number of materials that have the potential to create air pockets or contain air (chopped straw, etc.) can be used. Enough research on mixes of this sort have been done to adequately predict insulation values to be able to make a reasonable performance design that would be acceptable for most code requirements. The wall would be thick and would have to probably incorporate some steel (or bamboo) for additional reinf. stiffness. but it would be lighter, would have a reduced cement content, would be free of plastics and would have an appealing simplicity of design in the materials used. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 29 08:06:25 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA03626 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 08:06:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06860 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 08:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA24341; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 05:01:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA19659 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:54:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from gatekeeper.rigo.nl (gatekeeper.rigo.nl [193.78.50.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA19655 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 04:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by gatekeeper.rigo.nl (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA10056; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:50:16 +0100 Received: from apollo(89.0.0.12) by gatekeeper via smap (V1.3) id sma010050; Mon Sep 29 10:49:58 1997 Received: from flater (crimson) by apollo.rigo.nl (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA07410; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:01:35 --100 Message-Id: <9709290901.AA07410@apollo.rigo.nl> From: "Miranda van Tilburg" To: Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:56:59 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 201 Members of Greenbuilding, The Novem -Dutch knowledge centre for energy and the environment- is a non-profit organization which is interested in reducing energy consumption in The Netherlands. A mean to accomplish this goal is to stimulate the use of new innovative technologies. Therefore, the Novem has asked us to investigate new energy efficient technologies for household appliances world-wide. Eventually the Novem wants to introduce a few outstanding technologies in The Netherlands. As you are all experts in this field, we would like to know whether you are aware of emerging technologies that are not world-wide promoted to consumers today (perhaps only in your own country) and which have been commercialized or are likely to be commercialized in about 10 years. We would greatly appreciate any information you can give us on this subject. We are especially interested in: (1) information on new energy efficient technologies for household appliances (2) research institutes or manufacturers in and outside your country who developed energy efficient technologies or might be developing new technologies, and (3) institutes, agencies, associations aimed at energy efficiency, renewable or sustainable energy, or innovative technologies especially outside Northern America. Any name, address, publication etc. is welcome. If you would like more information on the project, please contact us. Your help is greatly appreciated! Yours Sincerely Miranda Van Tilburg, MA RIGO research en advies P.O. Box 2085 1000 CV Amsterdam The Netherlands tel: +3120 522 1190 / 1111 fax: +3120 6276840 e-mail: miranda@rigo.nl ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 29 14:41:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA03504 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA03298 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:37:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08669; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03462 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:28:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout24.mail.aol.com (emout24.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.129]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03458 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:28:51 -0400 (EDT) From: DSaum@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout24.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA25494; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:31:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:31:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970929101609_1563821920@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: alex@ebuild.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Fluorescent Lights: off or on? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 202 In a message dated 97-09-27 09:20:43 EDT, alex@ebuild.com writes: > Regarding the energy impacts of turning fluorescents on and off, there was > some great dialog on the Greenbuilding list a long time ago about this > issue. Some of us packrats actually save this stuff. Enjoy. ---dave ----fwd Subj: GBlist: Fluorescent lights - to switch off or not? That is the question Date: 97-05-16 21:02:12 EDT From: hlevin@cruzio.com (Hal Levin) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org To: greenbuilding@crest.org BGlisters: I forwarded the question about switching off fluorescent lights to my "go-to" guy on illumination, lighting guru Steve Selkowitz at Lawrence Berkeley National Lab, UC Berkeley. He sent me the following message. Some of the terminology and utility rates are a bit strange because the response comes from New Zealand. The answer appears to be: Yes, switch 'em off when they will be off for more than 20 minutes, even at extremely low energy unit cost.. Hal Levin Hal, The simple answer is "turn off the lights"- just so happens there was a recent more detailed discussion of this on a bulletin board- here it is. Hope all is well. Steve --------- From: Lighting@garnet.nist.gov (5/15/97) To: Lighting@garnet.nist.gov RE>Effect of short cycling on fluorescent l > I concurr with the practical effects of frequent switching set out in >Ken Berg's posting however this does raise a question to which I have >previously failed to find an authoritative answer: > >The object of occupancy switching is given as "energy saving" The >question raised by this thread is that does it provide an economic saving >as well? I don't think that we have fully answered the first point. I >have been unable to find good figures for the energy required to >manufacture any kind of lamp. This figure would include the energy >required to refine or recycle base materials as well as that used in the >manufacture of the specific lamp, from work I have seen relating to >automobiles where it has been shown that 25 percent of all the energy >they consume during their life is that taken to manufacture them, I am >suspicios that , particularly "energy saving" lamps may not be as >effective as they seem taking production energy into account, and that is >before we start looking at other environmental impacts of materials used >such as mercury. > [snip] > I hope the following answers some questions about cost savings from turning off lights. Someone at the Minnesota Dept of health has put together a good article on net mercury emissions from using fluorescent lamps - the numbers showed fluoresent lamps providing net mercury benefit - burning coal releases mercury, but the numbers were not as optimistic for the benefits of fluorescent lamps as the IAEEL article on net mercury emissions from using fluorescent lamps. The following is a long winded discussion of the myths surrounding switching off fluorescent lamps. Fluorescent Lighting - Should I turn the lights off? There have been two very resilient energy myths that have dissuaded people from turning off fluorescent lamps. These myths are hard to dispel because inside each myth is a kernel of fact. Inrush myth: I don't turn off fluorescent lights because the inrush energy when I turn the lights on is more than the energy I saved by turning them off. Inrush fact: When fluorescent fixtures are turned on there is a MOMENTARY inrush of current. This inrush is 5 times greater than normal operating current for magnetic ballasts and can be as high as 40 times greater than normal operating current for electronic ballasts. This inrush lasts for 1/10th of a second or less. Thus the energy content of the inrush event is comparable 5 seconds or less of normal operation. Thus, turning off the lights for more than 5 seconds will save more energy than leaving them on even when including the inrush current. Lamp life myth: I don't turn off fluorescent lamps at all because turning them on and off reduces the lamp life and I would rather replace the lamps less often. Lamp life fact: Each time the lamp is started some of the emissive material on the electrodes is eroded. This does reduce the BURNING HOURS of the lamp. The burning hours are how many hours of OPERATION the lamps will last. By turning lamps off at night, the fraction of operating hours per year can be reduced by much more than the reduction in the lamp life in terms of burning hours. Thus turning lamps off at night will make the lamps last longer (longer period between lamp replacement). In "Economics of Switching Fluorescent Lamps" IEEE Transactions on Industry Applications Vol 24, No 3, May/June 1988, Carriere & Rea provide a function f(u), that describes the lamp life in burning hours relative the rated lamp life under that standard burning cycle of 3 hours lamp operation per start. Actual Lamp Life = Rated Lamp Life x f(u) where, f(u) = 1.71 (1-exp[-(u/3.89)^0.505]) u = burning cycle, hours of operation per start A continuously burning lamp has a large value of u and the exponential term goes to 0, thus f(u) = 1.71 and the continuously burning lamp has an average life 171% of the rated life. In the US, linear fluorescent lamps are rated for 20,000 hours on a magnetic ballast. Thus a continuously burning lamp would be expected to last 34,200 burning hours. The same lamp operated on a 3 hour burning cycle (3 hours on, and indeterminate time off, another 3 hours on etc) will last 20,000 BURNING hours i.e. f(u) = 1.0. Since there are 3 hours of burning time per switching on operation, the lamp will be switched on (20,000 operating hr per lamp)/ (3 operating hr per start) = 6,666 starts per lamp. On average from continuous operation to 3 burning hours per start, there is a loss of 2.13 hours of burning lamp life per switching operation. [34,200 - 20,000] burning hours / 6,666 starts = 2.13 burning hours reduction per start. If, ON AVERAGE, the lamps are off longer than 2.13 hours, the mean time between failure for the switched lamps is longer than the continuously burning lamps. Thus the switched lamps will not be changed as frequently as the continuously burning lamps. If, ON AVERAGE, when lamps are switched off it is for less than 2.13 hours, the continuously burning lamps will last longer - they will not be changed as frequently as the switched lamps. Switching off lamps saves energy and saves on ones electrical bill, thus the break even point for turning off lamps is somewhat less than having the lamps off for 2.13 hours. In general, switching off lamps saves energy not demand. Assuming an energy cost of $0.03/kWh, switching off a 34 W lamp (36 W with ballast losses) saves $0.00108/lamp-hr. 36 Watts x 0.001 kW/Watt x $0.03/kWh = $0.00108/lamp-hr If y, is the average number of hours the lamp is off per 3 hour operating cycle, the annual hours per year the lamps are off, HO, is: HO = (y)(8760)/(3+y) The Annual Electrical Savings, AES, from switching the lamp off is: AES = [(y)(8760)/(3+y)]( $0.00108/lamp-hr) Assumptions for replacement costs for fluorescent lamps: Lamp Cost = $2.00/lamp Disposal Cost = $0.60/lamp (recycling) Labour Cost = $4.00/lamp Total Replacement Cost = $6.60/lamp Annual Burning Hours, ABH, per year for lamp with 3 hours on and y hours off per cycle is: ABH = (3)/(3+y)(8,760) Given that the burning hours for a lamp with a 3 hr burning cycle is 20,000 hours and the burning hours for a lamp that is continuously burning is 34,200 hours, and given the cost of replacing a lamp is $6.60/lamp, the Additional Annual Lamp Costs, ALC, of switching lamps is given by: ALC = {(3/(3+y))(8760/20,000) - [8760/34,200]}x $6.60 If y = 2.13 hours, Add. Annual Lamp Costs = 0 If y < 2.13 hours then additional lamp costs are positive. There are more lamps to replace per year if the lights are off, on average, less than 2.13 hours. The Overall Cost Savings, OCS, of switching lamps off is simply the Annual Electrical Savings, AES, net the Additional Annual Lamp Costs, ALC. OCS = AES - ALC For the three hour operating cycle with y hours off between burning cycles, the Overall Cost Savings, OCS are: OCS = {[(y)(8760)/(3+y)]($0.00108/lamp-hr)} - {(3/(3+y))(8760/20,000) - [8760/34,200]}x $6.60} The break even point where the additional energy savings just pays for the additional lamp replacements is found by setting OCS to zero and solving for y. In this case y = 0.323 hr or 19 minutes. Thus if the lights are turned off for longer than 19 minutes, there is a net savings to turning the lights off. To summarise: Turning fluorescent lights off: 1. Inrush energy when turning fluorescent fixtures on is equivalent to 5 seconds or less of normal operating energy. 2. If lamps are turned off on average longer than 2 hours, they will last longer than not turning them off. 3. Using conservative values of 3 cents/kWh and $6.60/lamp for lamp replacement costs, money is saved by turning lamps off longer than 20 minutes. *********************************************************** Energy Group Limited DUNEDIN (Head Office) 14a Wickliffe Street, PO Box 738, Dunedin, New Zealand Tel: 64-3-479 0148 Fax: 64-3-479 0759 Email: eglstaff@earthlight.co.nz URL: http://www.earthlight.co.nz/business/egl/index.htm WELLINGTON Ground Floor, 1 The Terrace, PO Box 2584, Wellington, New Zealand Tel: 64-4-472 3353 Fax: 64-4-472 3352 Email: egl-iel@actrix.gen.nz <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Hal Levin Hal Levin & Associates 2548 Empire Grade, Santa Cruz, CA 95060-9748 408.425.3946 fax 408.426.6522 -----------end fwd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 29 14:48:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA03613 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:48:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA05076 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA08651; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA03453 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:28:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03448 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:28:36 -0400 (EDT) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA05533 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970929143019_-1628919854@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #402 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 203 >>Also, of the big-three lamps manufacturers--General Electric, Osram Sylvania, and Phillips--only Phillips opposes a regulation being considered by EPA to "conditionally exempt" fluorescent lamps from hazardous waste disposal regulations. That conditional exemption would be very bad. I rarely make such a strong product recommendation.<< I'd be interested in hearing more about this proposed reg, and it's source. Tony Novelli ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 29 19:15:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA08903 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA18841 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA17137; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:08:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA11662 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:02:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ns.waonline.com (ns.waonline.com [208.192.52.129]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA11658 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 19:02:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from waonline.com (1Cust118.max20.new-york.ny.ms.uu.net [153.35.9.246]) by ns.waonline.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA08585 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 1997 16:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <343032AC.50AC876D@waonline.com> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:58:53 -0400 From: "Warren C. Liebold" Reply-To: wliebold@waonline.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuildings Subject: GBlist: 4 Times Square Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 204 Last Sunday's New York Times Real Estate Section included an article, "Energy Deregulation: Lower Costs, More Confusion," which briefly mentions 4 Times Square's intention to use chiller/heaters and fuel cells for a portion of their electricity needs. I'm not sure the article is worth chasing after unless you have easy access to the Times. The discussion of retail deregulation is not very detailed compared to what most of us have read. Warren Liebold wliebold@waonline.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 30 00:36:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA15202 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:36:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA03494 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:32:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA24526; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA20294 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:27:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout33.mail.aol.com (emout33.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA20290 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:27:23 -0400 (EDT) From: RodLambert@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout33.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA24436 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970929233816_-1798902641@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: window solar gains Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 205 We often hear of the net solar gain of south facing windows. My question is: Under what conditions is this referenced? Above what (overall) R-value and air leakage standard must the window be? Are there good data for cloudy areas such as we have here in Ithaca? Would a cloudy winter nullify the value of a lot of south glass? Is the data assuming that there is enough thermo mass to absorb the incoming heat? There can be days in winter in well insulated homes where windows need to be opened to dump heat otherwise. On another note, having the combination of concrete radiant floors with a lot of south facing glass seems like a poor combination here in the common house as it is difficult for the heating floor to respond quickly to the sudden input of solar gain when the clouds suddenly appear. Mind you if you do have a lot of cloudy weather, having the extra glass helps to input a few more photons into your starving eyeballs. hoping someone has an answer or two, Rod Lambert Ecovillage at Ithaca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 30 02:47:25 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA16984 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA27148 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:42:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA26856; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:42:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA22668 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:38:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA22664 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:38:09 -0400 (EDT) From: IdahoCFM@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id CAA11467 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:40:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 02:40:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970930024045_1664604972@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: more flourescent questions... Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 206 Following up on an earlier posting about turning off flourescent bulbs... Anybody have any hard evidence about using IR occupancy sensors in areas of high frequency - short stay traffic like bathrooms. An old electrician friend says that anything over 3 on/off cycles a day shortens the life of the flourescent bulb by up to half. The PG+E energy lab in SF disagrees, but can't say how many on/off cycles is too many. Any experience? Thanks, Chris Meyer Parkwood Business Properties Coeur d' Alene, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 30 03:17:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA17343 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:17:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA01605 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:12:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA27136; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:13:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA22966 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:08:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from nefeli.forthnet.gr (nefeli.forthnet.gr [193.92.150.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA22962 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:08:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rho.forthnet.gr (ppp23.rho.forthnet.gr [193.92.102.218]) by nefeli.forthnet.gr (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA09002; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:11:15 +0300 (EET DST) Message-ID: <3430B4BC.4B588D23@rho.forthnet.gr> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:13:49 +0200 From: Costas Vrouchos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IdahoCFM@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: more flourescent questions... References: <970930024045_1664604972@emout11.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 207 Dear Chris. The following might be what you are looking for. It is copied from another mailing list about lighting. If you are interested about this mailing list I can forward you the subscription details. Costas Vrouchos Electrical Engineer - Energy Management Consultant Rhodes - GREECE " I hope the following answers some questions about cost savings from turning off lights. Someone at the Minnesota Dept of health has put together a good article on net mercury emissions from using fluorescent lamps - the numbers showed fluoresent lamps providing net mercury benefit - burning coal releases mercury, but the numbers were not as optimistic for the benefits of fluorescent lamps as the IAEEL article on net mercury emissions from using fluorescent lamps. The following is a long winded discussion of the myths surrounding switching off fluorescent lamps. Fluorescent Lighting - Should I turn the lights off? There have been two very resilient energy myths that have dissuaded people from turning off fluorescent lamps. These myths are hard to dispel because inside each myth is a kernel of fact. Inrush myth: I don't turn off fluorescent lights because the inrush energy when I turn the lights on is more than the energy I saved by turning them off. Inrush fact: When fluorescent fixtures are turned on there is a MOMENTARY inrush of current. This inrush is 5 times greater than normal operating current for magnetic ballasts and can be as high as 40 times greater than normal operating current for electronic ballasts. This inrush lasts for 1/10th of a second or less. Thus the energy content of the inrush event is comparable 5 seconds or less of normal operation. Thus, turning off the lights for more than 5 seconds will save more energy than leaving them on even when including the inrush current. Lamp life myth: I don't turn off fluorescent lamps at all because turning them on and off reduces the lamp life and I would rather replace the lamps less often. Lamp life fact: Each time the lamp is started some of the emissive material on the electrodes is eroded. This does reduce the BURNING HOURS of the lamp. The burning hours are how many hours of OPERATION the lamps will last. By turning lamps off at night, the fraction of operating hours per year can be reduced by much more than the reduction in the lamp life in terms of burning hours. Thus turning lamps off at night will make the lamps last longer (longer period between lamp replacement). In "Economics of Switching Fluorescent Lamps" IEEE Transactions on Industry Applications Vol 24, No 3, May/June 1988, Carriere & Rea provide a function f(u), that describes the lamp life in burning hours relative the rated lamp life under that standard burning cycle of 3 hours lamp operation per start. Actual Lamp Life = Rated Lamp Life x f(u) where, f(u) = 1.71 (1-exp[-(u/3.89)^0.505]) u = burning cycle, hours of operation per start A continuously burning lamp has a large value of u and the exponential term goes to 0, thus f(u) = 1.71 and the continuously burning lamp has an average life 171% of the rated life. In the US, linear fluorescent lamps are rated for 20,000 hours on a magnetic ballast. Thus a continuously burning lamp would be expected to last 34,200 burning hours. The same lamp operated on a 3 hour burning cycle (3 hours on, and indeterminate time off, another 3 hours on etc) will last 20,000 BURNING hours i.e. f(u) = 1.0. Since there are 3 hours of burning time per switching on operation, the lamp will be switched on (20,000 operating hr per lamp)/ (3 operating hr per start) = 6,666 starts per lamp. On average from continuous operation to 3 burning hours per start, there is a loss of 2.13 hours of burning lamp life per switching operation. [34,200 - 20,000] burning hours / 6,666 starts = 2.13 burning hours reduction per start. If, ON AVERAGE, the lamps are off longer than 2.13 hours, the mean time between failure for the switched lamps is longer than the continuously burning lamps. Thus the switched lamps will not be changed as frequently as the continuously burning lamps. If, ON AVERAGE, when lamps are switched off it is for less than 2.13 hours, the continuously burning lamps will last longer - they will not be changed as frequently as the switched lamps. Switching off lamps saves energy and saves on ones electrical bill, thus the break even point for turning off lamps is somewhat less than having the lamps off for 2.13 hours. In general, switching off lamps saves energy not demand. Assuming an energy cost of $0.03/kWh, switching off a 34 W lamp (36 W with ballast losses) saves $0.00108/lamp-hr. 36 Watts x 0.001 kW/Watt x $0.03/kWh = $0.00108/lamp-hr If y, is the average number of hours the lamp is off per 3 hour operating cycle, the annual hours per year the lamps are off, HO, is: HO = (y)(8760)/(3+y) The Annual Electrical Savings, AES, from switching the lamp off is: AES = [(y)(8760)/(3+y)]( $0.00108/lamp-hr) Assumptions for replacement costs for fluorescent lamps: Lamp Cost = $2.00/lamp Disposal Cost = $0.60/lamp (recycling) Labour Cost = $4.00/lamp Total Replacement Cost = $6.60/lamp Annual Burning Hours, ABH, per year for lamp with 3 hours on and y hours off per cycle is: ABH = (3)/(3+y)(8,760) Given that the burning hours for a lamp with a 3 hr burning cycle is 20,000 hours and the burning hours for a lamp that is continuously burning is 34,200 hours, and given the cost of replacing a lamp is $6.60/lamp, the Additional Annual Lamp Costs, ALC, of switching lamps is given by: ALC = {(3/(3+y))(8760/20,000) - [8760/34,200]}x $6.60 If y = 2.13 hours, Add. Annual Lamp Costs = 0 If y < 2.13 hours then additional lamp costs are positive. There are more lamps to replace per year if the lights are off, on average, less than 2.13 hours. The Overall Cost Savings, OCS, of switching lamps off is simply the Annual Electrical Savings, AES, net the Additional Annual Lamp Costs, ALC. OCS = AES - ALC For the three hour operating cycle with y hours off between burning cycles, the Overall Cost Savings, OCS are: OCS = {[(y)(8760)/(3+y)]($0.00108/lamp-hr)} - {(3/(3+y))(8760/20,000) - [8760/34,200]}x $6.60} The break even point where the additional energy savings just pays for the additional lamp replacements is found by setting OCS to zero and solving for y. In this case y = 0.323 hr or 19 minutes. Thus if the lights are turned off for longer than 19 minutes, there is a net savings to turning the lights off. To summarise: Turning fluorescent lights off: 1. Inrush energy when turning fluorescent fixtures on is equivalent to 5 seconds or less of normal operating energy. 2. If lamps are turned off on average longer than 2 hours, they will last longer than not turning them off. 3. Using conservative values of 3 cents/kWh and $6.60/lamp for lamp replacement costs, money is saved by turning lamps off longer than 20 minutes. *********************************************************** Energy Group Limited DUNEDIN (Head Office) 14a Wickliffe Street, PO Box 738, Dunedin, New Zealand Tel: 64-3-479 0148 Fax: 64-3-479 0759 Email: eglstaff@earthlight.co.nz URL: http://www.earthlight.co.nz/business/egl/index.htm WELLINGTON Ground Floor, 1 The Terrace, PO Box 2584, Wellington, New Zealand Tel: 64-4-472 3353 Fax: 64-4-472 3352 Email: egl-iel@actrix.gen.nz " ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 30 12:46:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA29724 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:46:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19347 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:42:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA09692; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:41:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA02516 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:35:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA02505 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:35:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kuts9p10.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA05797; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:37:49 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970930164003.006c6ad0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:40:03 -0500 To: RodLambert@aol.com From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: window solar gains and such Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 208 Rod, I think Chris Mathias is the resident window guru; when I had a million window related questions he highly recommended the recently published book by John Carmody et al. Here in Kansas we don't have a lack of sunshine problem thank goodness (and to think we talked about living in the northwest) however I think solar gain is even more of a problem from west facing windows than from south. I too need to figure out the proper thermal mass/glazing ratio for our latitude. Am hoping the Carmody book will tell all. The window stickers now should have a number that refers to solar gain/shading coefficient; I believe THAT is the number you want to pay attention to when worrying about the heat build up, not the R-value. Finally I think you might want to have a thermostatically controlled fan to let out hot air rather than have to rely on or think about actually opening a window in the winter (or to pull it into a storage area to be released once the temperature drops). It sounds like the Wilmar Windows you have are double hungs too; I've always been told that casements are a better choice for air infiltration. Wonder if Wilmar has stickers comparable to those required here? Best, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 30 14:54:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA03489 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA23338 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:49:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA12607; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:49:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA06811 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:43:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout03.mail.aol.com (emout03.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.94]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA06807 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:43:29 -0400 (EDT) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout03.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA04107 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:46:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:46:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970930144526_1890502007@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Northwest EcoBuilding Guild Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 209 Darrin Thorton wrote... >>Wondering about that Eco building Times paper, is it monthly, weekly.... How could I get a sample and/or a subscription?<< Thought that others might be interested in knowing about us as well... The _EcoBuilding Times_ is a publication of the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild. Currently the EBT is published every six months or so. We publish articles about issues and techniques that are relevant and applicable to green building in the Northwest, primarily news about and articles by members of the Guild. The Northwest EcoBuilding Guild is a five-year-old association of contractors, design professionals, tradespeople, manufacturers, suppliers and homeowners interested in sustainable construction and design. Our members include regionally recognized leaders in their fields as well as interested beginners. There are about 250 members in five chapters--Seattle, Spokane, Olympia, Portland and Eugene, as well as smaller groups in Bellingham and Port Townsend, and on Whidbey Island. Guild members hold local chapter meetings, organize and support workshops (such as the upcoming Sustainable Building Northwest conference -- e-mail < obrien@halcyon.com > ), publish the _EcoBuilding Times_ and the Guild _Green Pages_--a directory of members and their enviornmentally friendly products and services. The Guild's mission is to promote building practices that protect human health, encourage sustainable use of energy and resources, and foster long-term regional economic vitality. The Guild is a registered 501-c3 non-profit organization, supported by grants (last year from the WA State Department of Ecology and City of Seattle Solid Waste), membership dollars and advertising revenue. Membership in the Guild is $45/year, and includes... * a subscription to the _EcoBuilding Times_ (at this stage, one or two issues) * a copy of the annual Green Pages * company listing in the Green Pages * discount on events and advertising in publications * chapter support Student membership is $20. To join, send a check to Northwest EcoBuilding Guild 217 Ninth Avenue North Seattle, WA 98109 or call the Guild office at 206.622-8350 and request a membership and advertising package. Visit the Guild's website at http://www.az.com/~cwebb/ebg.html Rob Harrison, Editor _EcoBuilding Times_ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 30 16:21:14 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA05091 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:21:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA17354 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:16:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA14938; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:16:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA09426 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:11:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA09422 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 16:11:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA16821; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:22:10 -0700 Message-Id: <34315DA4.38A@arb.ca.gov> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:14:28 -0700 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST , 102414.3425@compuserve.com, amkhem@dante.lbl.gov, TLOCKE@ns.net, PEG@PROCTORENG.COM, ll Spohn , sebhem@dante.lbl.gov, apte@diana.lbl.gov Subject: GBlist: HERS WKSHOP 10/2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 210 FYI & Comment, the Calif. Energy Commission (CEC) is holding a public workshop to take comments on their proposed Home Energy Rating System regulations that are based on Title 24 bldg. stds. As far as I know, the draft regs do not include actual field performance testing (including combustion safety testing) of homes. The meeting announcement is at: http://www.energy.ca.gov/98standards/notices/97-09-18_notice.html This is a continuation of a previous workshop; the previous notice and how to get the draft regs are at: http://www.energy.ca.gov/98standards/notices/97-08-21_hers.html. They could probably use comments from experienced practitioners re: real world performnace of homes. Please let other interested parties know about the workshop. TIA, Tom -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 30 23:39:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA17028 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA09451 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:35:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA27365; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:34:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA23445 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:30:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from smtp.gte.net (smtp.gte.net [207.115.153.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA23441 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (clw003098.gte.net [207.175.3.98]) by smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with SMTP id WAA03815 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 22:32:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3431C46C.4C69@gte.net> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 23:33:00 -0400 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Zero Waste Declarations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 211 Greetings, I'm trying to get a sense of which companies and communities have explicitely declared a zero waste goal for themselves. Interface and Xerox are two that jump to mind. Once I've got some leads, I'll do follow-up research and try to get some publications interested in covering best practices. Even the leaders need to set an ever higher bar for themselves. Thanks for any leads or suggestions you can provide. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 1 09:10:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA26419 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA17963 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:06:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07325; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:02:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA01095 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:56:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA01088 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40618; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 06:57:16 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 06:57:16 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Cindy/Mike Shea Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Zero Waste Declarations In-Reply-To: <3431C46C.4C69@gte.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 212 Cindy: In our recent work on recofitting a 50 story office tower, we came across the publication called: "Working Your Way to a Green Office" by Environment Canada that mentions examples of waste reduction (policies) by many companies and governments.If interested, I can get a phone #. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Cindy/Mike Shea wrote: > > Greetings, > > I'm trying to get a sense of which companies and communities have explicitely declared a > zero waste goal for themselves. Interface and Xerox are two that jump to mind. Once > I've got some leads, I'll do follow-up research and try to get some publications > interested in covering best practices. Even the leaders need to set an ever higher bar > for themselves. > > Thanks for any leads or suggestions you can provide. > > Cindy Pollock Shea > Promoting Sustainable Development > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 1 11:27:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28972 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA23326 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA09817; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA05917 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:03:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA05913 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:03:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LjO03840; Wed, 01 Oct 1997 11:03:44 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: windows Message-ID: <19971001.094649.4495.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-8,10,13-15,18-24 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 11:03:44 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 213 Hi, Sorry to "beat a dead horse" but most of the discussions recently on windows have related to problems of cold climate or temperat climate regions. Here in S. Florida were are "tropical" : no cold or even much cool - mostly just hot and hotter and very humid. I am getting conflicting info from local contractors - double vs. single, argon filled vs reflective coating vs. ..... The main problem seems to be condensation in double paned windows resulting from the extreme heat vs the excessive use of air conditioning and the extreme humidity I have a client who needs to change windows and I need a fast answer. Please note that the house is sited N/S but there is an added problem with a child who is severely asthmatic and sensitive to dust. Thanks for help. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 1 14:55:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA06934 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA25411 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:51:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA16120; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA13471 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:38:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA13467 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:38:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA58724; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:38:23 -0600 Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:38:22 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Abby Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: "Working Your Way to a Green Office" In-Reply-To: <34325A8E.AC7@ibm.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 214 Abby et al: The above (ISBN #0-662-19629-5) can be ordered from Environment Canada (819) 997-2800. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Abby wrote: > > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > Jorg: I would like to get a copy. Could you please post phone number > or address? > thanks, Abby > laraby@ibm.net > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 1 16:13:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA08526 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA20853 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA18098; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:58:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA16019 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:54:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA16004 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:54:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kuts15p03.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA20684; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:56:27 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971001195841.006dce7c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 14:58:41 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 215 The following interesting information just received from Green Clips: I would be interested in comments about the first, about Ecolonia and internal warm walls and natural ventilation systems. Specifically anyone know where I can get more information about these innovative building techniques? The article about textiles is noteworthy too. If most of you get this freebie, I am sorry for the repea; but this particular 'issue' has more fodder than most. Sacie Lambertson REPORT FROM ECOLONIA Six years after construction began on Ecolonia, a project of 100 demonstration houses with nine different styles and architects in the Dutch town of Alphen aan de Rijn, most Dutch building contractors are applying only its more profitable ecological features. Fast money-making features like non-toxic chalk-composite structural internal building blocks, solar boilers and roof-mounted heaters, internal warm walls, and natural ventilation systems have quickly become marketplace items. But other features like the vegetation-covered roofs of ecological architect Renz Pijnenborgh cost more than a traditional tile roof and gave no added insulation, concluded a residents' assessment report published by the semi-governmental agency Novem. Still, most residents are happy with many of the project's ecological aspects, particularly the quality of the indoor air that's passed over waterfalls and through plants for filtering. Residents with air heating dislike it, preferring well-placed radiator elements - or Pijnenborgh's heated wall - coupled to a high-efficiency gas boiler with a solar addition. Tenants say that water-based paints have lost their brightness and need improvement. Now convinced it's safe for boaters and paddlers, tenants like the man-made lake with its reed bed that self-cleans gray water. - Eco Design, Vol V No 2, p. 26, by Bill Holdsworth. A CAR FOR EVERY DRIVER The US Department of Transportation's latest Nationwide Personal Transportation Survey says that, from 1969 to 1995, the vehicle population of the United States grew six times faster than its human population. The number of cars has increased two and a half times as fast as the number of households, and twice as fast as the number of drivers. The number of vehicles has risen by 144 percent, to 176 million. The number of drivers has also risen, but only by 72 percent. Drivers used to outnumber cars by 30 percent; now the two are equal. The number of households with three or more vehicles is 18.7 percent, up from 4.6 percent in 1969. "Inundation is not too strong a term for it," says transportation expert Alan E. Pisarski. But he says the growth spurt won't continue - the rush of women into the work force and of baby boomers into the ranks of licensed drivers has ended. "We're probably stabilizing at high levels," Pisarski continues, "but the key point is it doesn't matter, once we have more vehicles than drivers. Unless you accept the notion that a driver can drive more than one at a time... ." - The New York Times, September 21, 1997, p. 18, by Matthew L. Wald. TEXTILE ARCHITECTURE: MORE WITH LESS Usually limited to garden party tents or big tops, textile fabric structures can bring their material efficiency, adaptability, and thermal and light diffusing properties to permanent buildings. Strong and lightweight, textile fabric structures provide more shelter with fewer materials and components than conventional construction. Tensile structures made of fabrics with PVC-coated-polyester or Teflon-coated glass fibers can span up to 300 meters. Despite environmental concerns about these coatings and fibers, the membranes' high durability saves resources. Averaging 15 to 20 years, the life span of architectural fabrics compares to flat roofing materials, but their low materials and energy intensity allows them to be replaced or reused at relatively low environmental cost. Designing easily-reconfigured fabric structures around a permanent core creates a highly adaptable building that can grow and contract, an essential element of a durable and environmentally responsible building. And using a fabric sandwich with insulating air between reflective or transmissive membranes controls sunlight and buffers external conditions. For more information, call the Textile Environmental Network, Manchester, England, 0161.745.5276. - Eco Design, Vol V No 2, p. 36, by Kate Fletcher. NMS GUIDELINES GREEN SPECIFICATIONS Writers of the National Master Specification, Canada's leading construction specification tool, have developed a Guideline for Environmentally Enhanced Specifications for Construction and Renovation. The NMS Secretariat prepared the manual to help the Federal Government's designers and specifiers write green specifications for construction, renovation, demolition, and deconstruction projects. The manual applies a comprehensive set of criteria to various NMS sections and offers references, detailed information sources, examples of greened specifications, and case studies. [For more information, email Ian Z. Bartlett at the NMS Secretariat, bartleti@pwgsc.gc.ca.] - WasteNot, Spring-Summer 1997, p.1, by Ian Z. Bartlett. SPECIFYING ENERGY EFFICIENT LIGHTING Update your specifications - energy efficient lighting technology is increasingly sophisticated and economical. Boost fluorescent light output at low cost with specular reflectors. Following poor quality first runs, reputable manufacturers now offer durable and effective products. And use T5 and T4 ultra-thin fluorescent lamps with small electronic ballasts for higher lumen-per-watt output than T8 lamps. For downlighting and accent lighting, consider low-wattage metal halide PAR20 and PAR30 lamps, now with improved color rendering and stability. For outdoor flood lighting or remote-source lighting through optical fiber or interreflective film, consider lollipop-sized electrodeless sulfur lamps that provide incredibly bright light with a 60,000-hour life. - The Construction Specifier, August 1997, p. 35, by Mark Loeffler. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . GreenClips is free of charge thanks to these sponsors - ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 1 16:13:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA08528 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA20855 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA18271; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA16207 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:00:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA16203 for ; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.128] (pm3a19.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.209]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA16397; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:01:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:01:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971001.094649.4495.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: windows Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 216 Beverly Weiter wrote regarding window choices for hot humid climates. In part: > >I am getting conflicting info from local contractors - double vs. single, >argon filled vs reflective coating vs. >..... The main problem seems to be condensation in double paned windows >resulting from the extreme heat vs the excessive use of air conditioning >and the extreme humidity > >I have a client who needs to change windows and I need a >fast answer. Please note that the house is sited N/S but there is an >added problem with a child who is severely asthmatic and sensitive to >dust. > The question of whether to go with insulated glass or not is a non question as far as I'm concerned. Use insulated glass. Given the north-south orientation of the house, I would suggest also investing in a low-e coating (low-e2 or comparable, which lets less light through). The question of argon isn't as important. It doesn't cost much more, and is probably justified, particularly since you have an asthmatic child and thus should try to reduce condensation (= potential mold problems) as much as possible. For more detailed information, I suggest the book "Residential Windows," by Carmody, Selkowitz and Heschong, which I can't recommend too strongly. It's a great book (W.W. Norton publisher). -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 2 00:19:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA20748 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA11851 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:14:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA28687; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:12:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA27429 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:07:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from igcb.igc.apc.org (igcb.igc.apc.org [192.82.108.46]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA27423 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 00:07:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from igc2.igc.apc.org (root@igc2.igc.apc.org [192.82.108.39]) by igcb.igc.apc.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28208; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from crsp) by igc2.igc.apc.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14387; Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 21:05:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710020405.VAA14387@igc2.igc.apc.org> From: Lois Arkin To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: GBList: LA "green" buildings Cc: igt@wimsey.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 217 Dear Ian Theaker, Thanks for your GBlist post re "green" buildings. I was quite flattered to see L.A. Eco-Village included among the L.A. green architecture list. I was sorry to see that Eco-Home was not, as it is an outstanding example of a eco- retrofit of an ordinary old California bungalow. Founder Julia Russell has been involved in sustainable development demonstration and public advocacy for 15 years. I was a little put off by your "high ambitions, little funding... sigh." comment about L.A. Eco-Village. I am sure you did not mean to offend. However, in the interest of setting the record straight, let me offer that: 1. We paid all cash for our 1922 built 40 unit courtyard apartment building (i.e., $500,000). We have no bank mortgage! The eco-retrofit of this building was always planned as a three phase, 10 year project. It was not planned that way because of a shortage of money. 2. We are not concentrating on community economic development. We have concentrated quite a bit during the past five years on the development of community: building a sense of inter-connectedness, trust and social cohesion. From such a basis in community, larger physical and economic changes are possible without larger bureaucratic structures. 3. We are not located in "deepest darkest East LA" (what does that mean?). We are located about 3 miles west of downtown in the Wilshire Center/Koreatown Redevelopment area. Our two blocks, built out in the 20's, are mixed use, within walking distance of 20 buslines and two subway stops. Many of us who live here intentionally no longer own automobiles (we invite others to join us here for autoless urban living). The 1800 acre redevelopment area, close to the heart of our city is, according to our planning document, to be guided by the principles of sustainable development. It is a 30 year plan. It is one of the most multi-ethnic places on the face of the earth, with many billions of dollars of investment from all over the world and many press headquarters from all over the earth. So, you see, we easily have the potential to help make some very radical, very rapid and very deep changes worldwide. The chairperson of the board of our Redevelopment Agency, the largest in the country, is very committed to sustainable development. 4. L.A. Eco-Village is about demonstrating sustainable urban living patterns. Acquiring more of the buildings in our neighborhood is part of our agenda and eco-retrofitting our buildings in phases and, significantly, out of cash flow, demonstrates significant economic sustainability. We have a community revolving loan fund and are offering self selected interest rates for loans to our fund (0 to 8%) at self selected terms (18 months, 3 yrs. and 5 yrs.) and at self selected amounts ($1500 and up). 5. We have spent our summer deeply involved in saving a significant corner of Eco-Village from the Los Angeles Unified School District bulldozers. It has been an opportunity to expand public awareness about sustainable community at the highest levels of local and state government. And it looks like the bulldozers have been turned back for now (without one cent spent on attorneys!--we are about demonstrating a different way of being in our city). 6. We conduct three hour public tours if you or others plan to visit our city, which generally include a vegetarian lunch. ****************************************************************** Lois Arkin 3551 White House Place Los Angeles, CA 90004 Los Angeles Eco-Village: a sustainable community-in-process and the west coast node for the Ecovillage Network of the Americas (ENA) phone: 213/738-1254 fax: 213/386=8873 email: crsp@igc.apc.org web: http://alumni.caltech.edu/~mignon/laev.html ****************************************************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 2 10:09:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA01631 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA15627 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:04:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05132; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:02:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA05281 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:57:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from november.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA05277 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 09:57:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.135] (p135.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.135]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA24322 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:06:09 GMT Message-Id: <199710021406.OAA24322@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Slip Form Walls Date: Thu, 2 Oct 97 08:03:12 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 218 On 9/30/97 12:00 AM John Salmen wrote: > ..... Perhaps the most interesting (for my sensibility) alternative to >investigate for slip form walls is the insulating potential of the >concrete binding mix itself. As long as sufficient strength or stiffness >remains to bind the rock material a large number of materials that have >the potential to create air pockets or contain air (chopped straw, etc.) >can be used. Enough research on mixes of this sort have been done to >adequately predict insulation values to be able to make a reasonable >performance design that would be acceptable for most code requirements. >The wall would be thick and would have to probably incorporate some >steel (or bamboo) for additional reinf. stiffness. but it would be >lighter, would have a reduced cement content, would be free of plastics >and would have an appealing simplicity of design in the materials used. This is a good description of the pumicecrete walls of my houses under construction. We approved them under adobe codes, so there is also no reinforcement. There is no material that I am aware of that is porous enough to insulate effectively, and at the same time has a strong enough matrix to hold reinforcment effectively (unless it is a dispersed reinforcement, such as straw or fiberglass). For example, in earthen construction, rebar weakens wall systems. In pumicecrete, its just useless. I'd like to hear of other materials, as I share John's desire for an integrated structural and insulative wall system. The disadvantage of pumicecrete, is that pumice is not found in very many places. Buzz Burrell Bolder Building Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 2 10:48:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA03206 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:48:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA24348 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA08834; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA06399 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:38:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA06395 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 10:38:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA131606; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:38:17 -0600 Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 08:38:17 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: RodLambert@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: window performance In-Reply-To: <970924212229_1097784358@emout18.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 219 Rod: Accelerated testing on windows can be done, but I am not sure which testing facility is (capable of) doing this and the cost. However, it is very important and would give you far more meaningful numbers and perhaps better reception by both professionals and the public to the current set of lables and ratings, which must be considered in the light of their serious weaknesses and limitations. This instantaneous testing of windows (or any other artifact) is a serious Achilles Heel of the "laboratory" testing industry. We don't bother doing blower door tests immediately after the completion of a building as is usual practice. Instead, we wait for a few years, until the drywall mud and paint has dried, the building has outgassed and settled, and has been used in the normal manner with live humans. Then you get far more meaningful real-world "in-situ" tests results, rather than instantaneous "start-up only" results. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 RodLambert@aol.com wrote: > Hi, I'm new to the list and have been following the discussion on "best > windows". > Question: Is there performance data for windows over the long term - 5, 10,20 > years? > Here at Ecovillage at Ithaca we have installed triple glazed Winnipeg windows > with fiberglas frames that appear to be good in most areas but have noticed a > few structural things that make me wonder about their long term performance > (although we are pretty pleased with them on the whole.) > It seems to me test performances on brand new windows is not the whole > picture. I once installed low - leakage, double weather stripped windows to > later discover that the sun degenerated the strips to uselessness within 5 > years. What about low-e argon windows? Does the argon eventually disperse > over an unacceptably short time reducing the insulating value to dry air > again? Does the film degenerate similarily? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 2 11:09:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA05493 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:09:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA29331 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:04:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA09525; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:04:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA06992 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:00:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA06988 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 11:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LmI28719; Thu, 02 Oct 1997 11:02:32 EDT To: doughf@mindspring.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: windows Message-ID: <19971002.094529.4495.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <1.5.4.32.19971001163134.006f2cf8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-7,9,12-17 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 1997 11:02:32 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 220 Frazer, Thanks for the suggestion, but the reason the windows need to be changed is because they are old jalousies that do not even close tightly. My only concern is whether to specify double paned, low-e; single paned with reflective coating; or double paned with argon. Testing at this point would be somewhat a waste. I would be interested to know which brands of windows you have used and which you feel have the best performance and lasting value in our climate. I thought of suggesting wood windows after seeing some of the postings. I don't know if Wilmar is available here but it was a possibility. Thank you for any suggestions. Beverly A. Weiter Environs Interiors 561-852-4262 f. 852-4663 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 2 12:48:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09087 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:48:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25358 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:43:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA12662; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA09996 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:38:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout38.mail.aol.com (emout38.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA09990 for ; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:38:03 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout38.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA15080; Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:40:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 12:40:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971002123441_-1765285995@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Instantaneous window performance Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 221 Rod, et. al. I'm with Jorg on this fact. Long term performance and durability is a major weakness in comparing window products. That is one of the reasons why I am hesitant to "jump" to new technologies and new manufacturers that have not stood the test of (at least) time. There are some standards activities underway to bring some more "real world" durability data to the marketplace. One can simply look to the field data by the Sealed Insulating Glass Manufacturers Association (SIGMA) that shows over 10 percent field failues of IG units after 10 years! That's just ONE reason that IG seal durability is among the most important aspects of long term window energy performance. Again, look to the IG warranty as one measure of expected durability. Hardware is another subject altogether. Did YOUR windows go through 10,000 cycles of opening, closing, locking and cycling? (Subject for another rant on another day....) By the way, there are several window testing laboratories that can do accellerated testing of windows to a variety of user-defined conditions. There are no standard conditions yet (except for IG units alone). Try Architectural Testing in York, PA 717-764-7700 or ETC Laboratories in Rochester, NY 716-328-7668 among others. Check NFRC's list of labs for other potential US and Canadian labs that might be able to help. Chris Mathis MCSquared << Rod: Accelerated testing on windows can be done, but I am not sure which testing facility is (capable of) doing this and the cost. However, it is very important and would give you far more meaningful numbers and perhaps better reception by both professionals and the public to the current set of lables and ratings, which must be considered in the light of their serious weaknesses and limitations. This instantaneous testing of windows (or any other artifact) is a serious Achilles Heel of the "laboratory" testing industry.>> ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 3 07:06:05 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA05351 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 07:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA14417 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 07:01:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA07726; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 07:01:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA03755 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:56:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mailsorter-2.isp.alma.webtv.net (mailsorter-2.isp.alma.webtv.net [205.180.153.86]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA03751 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:56:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailtod-2.alma.webtv.net (mailtod-2.iap.alma.webtv.net [207.76.180.82]) by mailsorter-2.isp.alma.webtv.net (8.8.5/ms.graham.02jul97) with ESMTP id DAA28546; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 03:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from production@localhost) by mailtod-2.alma.webtv.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) id DAA16191; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 03:59:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710031059.DAA16191@mailtod-2.alma.webtv.net> From: michaelblate@webtv.net (Michael Blate) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 06:59:01 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #406 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT MIME-Version: 1.0 (WebTV) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 222 While it's not terribly "green," I wonder if the foam-forms (into which concrete is normally poured), could serve passably well in creating either rock-filled (then with concrete between the rocks) or else pumice-crete filled walls. I should think this would work reasonably well on a property that has lots of small stones -- keep the rebar into both for reinforcement as well as a "vibrator" when the (small amount of) concrete is finally poured, to jiggle it between the rocks and stones. I should think it would need to be VERY wet concrete, probably done with several pours. But it could probably be done by hand from a wheelbarrow, since most of the cavity would be rocks and stones. But I'm just rambling here. Good luck and be well! Michael Blate Heal Yourself and Your Loved Ones Using Only the Touch of Your Finger -- It Works! G-Jo Acupressure ... www.g-jo.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 3 11:24:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10613 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:24:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA06205 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:19:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA12944; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:18:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA08534 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:13:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m20.boston.juno.com (m20.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.190]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA08524 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bandjf@juno.com) by m20.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LXS14997; Fri, 03 Oct 1997 11:14:15 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace -Reply Message-ID: <19971003.110757.4567.1.BANDJF@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-20,24-26 From: bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 1997 11:14:15 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 223 Dear Arnie- You wrote: >Given what you've described about your house, I highly >recommend finding a competent diagnostician to figure out what's >going on. Are the ducts really sealed? Since tape was used, the >answer is probably not. Is duct leakage causing negative >pressures in the house, causing air (along with contaminants) to be >sucked in from the attic and/or garage? How tight is the house? >How well sealed is the house from the attic? The Garage? > >An experienced person with a blower door, a duct blaster, a >manometer, and some sense can probably figure out what's >actually going on in a few hours, and possibly save you a bunch of >money in terms of going down non-productive paths. Occasionally, >this person might be an engineer, but experience, training, and >having the right tools are much more important. Thanks much for your reply/. Sorry it took me this long to be able to respond with a thank you . I am in the process now of doing just that. Trying to set something up to get that testing done. There's no doubt about it- that it is necessary. Thanks for the education, and help. Beth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 3 13:27:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA15473 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06871 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:22:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA15515; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA12218 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:17:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout41.mail.aol.com (emout41.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.59]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA12214 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:17:47 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout41.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA11077; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:20:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 13:20:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971003131926_354754115@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: environs.com@juno.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Loose windows in South Florida Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 224 Beverly, Sounds like almost ANY change you make will be an improvement over your old jalousies.... (commonly called "ja-loosies"). First, regarding TIGHTNESS: In general, windows with bulb-type compression weatherstripping are the tightest, especially after repeated openings and closings. These are predominantly used on CASEMENT-type windows. These are also the best at "catching" prevailing breezes to aid in cooling or venting. Choose windows that have a tested air leakage value less than 0.1 cfm/sqft or 0.1 cfm/ft of crack length. Make sure the values are recently tested and certified (either by AAMA or NWWDA). If certified, the manufacturer will be able to show you a test report and a certification label on the window. If you are stuck with sliding or hung windows, again, look for low air leakage values, labeled and certified. Second, regarding vinyl outgassing: While I don't know everything about the U of F study, I do know that not all plastics are the same and not all "vinyl" is the same. If you want low maintenance, vinyl-clad or metal-clad are your best option. Check with the name brand manufacturers of clad windows for specific outgassing data. Andersen is the largest manufacturer of vinyl clad wood windows. Pella is the largest manufacturer of aluminum clad wood windows. There are many others. Metal frames in South Florida have been around for a while and may be sufficient for your needs, though not as energy efficient. I'd be REAL cautious about hollow vinyl windows in south Florida. (Anybody know how hot a south-facing surface gets in the summer there?). As always, check the warranties and go with a manufacturer that will stand behind their product. But for your energy concerns about the windows, the glass is everything there..... Regarding ENERGY PERFORMANCE: You want to find windows that provide (1) desired visual clarity with (2) appropriately low solar heat gain coefficients (SHGCs). The lower the SHGC, the greater your air conditioning savings. (reducing the soal heat gain contribution to the cooling load). There are lots of glazing options that are designed to reduce solar gains.... many are tinted or colored. BEWARE! Just because a glass is tinted or colored does not necessarily mean it is good at rejecting solar gains! Some of these glazings are good absorbers! My choice would be to find one of the "spectrally selective" low-e coatings that provides a very low SHGC while maintaining a good visual clarity. These are enclosed in an insulated glass (IG) unit to protect the coating. Both Cardinal Glass and PPG make coatings of this type. All of the major manufacturers have these glazing options. (If you don't mind a little tint, there are also some low-e coatings designed to reject even more solar gain with a slight loss of visible transmittance.) Look for SHGCs less than 0.35 in South Florida. Then decide how clear you want your glass to be. Again, look for NFRC ratings and labels to be sure you are getting the cooling savings you desire. Changing your old windows, with improvements in both air leakage and solar control, should dramatically impact your comfort and air conditioning bills. !!!!Please let the list know what decision you make and what changes/savings result.!!!! Good Luck! Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 3 23:47:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA28734 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:47:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA09163 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:42:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA25919; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA24948 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:36:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mhc.ab.ca (ns.mhc.ab.ca [192.139.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA24933 for ; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:36:39 -0400 (EDT) From: LREBBECK@acd.mhc.ab.ca Received: from ns.mhc.ab.ca ([192.168.1.1]) by gate.mhc.ab.ca with ESMTP id <42626>; Fri, 3 Oct 1997 21:51:27 -0600 Received: from ACD.MHC.AB.CA by ACD.MHC.AB.CA (PMDF V5.0-3 #5923) id <01IODU3VDCQ8003FRF@ACD.MHC.AB.CA> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 03 Oct 1997 21:30:01 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 22:30:01 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Carpet glue To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <01IODU3VEFB6003FRF@ACD.MHC.AB.CA> X-VMS-To: IN%"greenbuilding@crest.org" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Note: Mail transport via Digital Equipment of Canada Ltd. Calgary gateway. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 225 What suggestions could anybody make for carpet adhesive that is VOC free? I am a jazz musician in a dilemma. I have been hired to play a steady gig in a new club - but the owner wants to do some major renovating before opening - tile - carpet - paint as well as some remodeling. I have Environmental Illness - with multiple chemical sensitivites - and when our church re-carpeted, it was over a year before I could go back without major symptoms. I last about 10 minutes in the new Walmart that just opened. I know there are many factors involved in construction/renovation, but I have high suspicions about the carpet glue. I have talked to the contractor, and the tile adhesive he uses is ECO 300, which is aparently VOC free, and the spec sheet sounds pretty good on it. The only listed dangerous ingredient is silica crystalline,Quartz - 10-30%. The carpet glue he wants to use is the Roberts 3000 which doesn't sound as friendly, listing mineral spirits - 3 1/2 % as its hazardous ingredient, and a host of potential side effects from exposure. The contractor doesn't seem to have much time to discuss my concerns - his solution is to say - I don't think it will be a problem. Anyway - I've also explored the tacfast carpet system, and this sounds very good, but again, the local contractor is unfamiliar with this, and not too excited about finding out details. Could anybody make suggestions as to the friendliest - most chemical free way of doing the renovating thing - especially the carpet. Are all carpets pretty much equally friendly themselves, chemical wise - outside of going to a wool carpet. This is a commercial venture, so durability is a concern. Does tile tend to be a chemically friendlyier way to go? The plus side of this is that the room is ventilated for a commercial/smoking area, so should be pretty good. Thanks for any help. I've been really enjoying reading this list. I believe I have seen responses from someone in Calgary. Maybe we could link up in terms of supliers in this area for some friendlier products. Medicine Hat is pretty much in the dark when it comes to *greenbuilding*. Lyle Rebbeck Medicine Hat College Medicine Hat, Alberta ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 4 09:09:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA09487 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 09:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA00316 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 09:04:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07520; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 09:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA00334 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 08:59:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA00330 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 08:59:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA32136; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 06:59:36 -0600 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 06:59:35 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: LREBBECK@acd.mhc.ab.ca Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Carpet glue In-Reply-To: <01IODU3VEFB6003FRF@ACD.MHC.AB.CA> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 226 In response to the edited section below, tile is far better from an indoor air quality, durability and maintainence point of view. Also mortar set & grout are far better than chemical adhesives. In addition area rugs of wool or cotton could be used in certain floor areas (+ wall areas) to absorb sound. At an Indoor Environment Conference yesterday I and the other speakers all avoided new or removed old carpets. Not one was installing carpets into residential or school applications. If the club owns the premises, and the owner has some foresight and wants to have a good return on investment for his renovations, they may want to add a Heat Recovery Ventilator to exhaust fumes while preheating cold outside replacement air. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Fri, 3 Oct 1997 LREBBECK@acd.mhc.ab.ca wrote: >This is a commercial venture, so durability is a concern. Does tile tend to be a chemically friendlyier way to go? The plus > side of this is that the room is ventilated for a commercial/smoking area, so > should be pretty good. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 4 11:49:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA11011 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:49:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27900 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:44:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA12101; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:44:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA02791 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:39:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA02787 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:39:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.67.47 (pm1-15.hoosier.net [206.106.67.47]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA31816 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 10:42:23 -0500 Message-ID: <34366360.2A56@bloomington.in.us> Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 10:40:19 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Discussion Subject: GBlist: new books Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 227 I thought you all might be interested in a new resource on low-tox construction. I've just completed a complete revision of my book "The Healthy House." It contains over twice as much information as previous editions and nearly 500 addresses of suppliers. Check it out at: http://www.hhinst.com/booksvideos.html There's actually another new book there also: "The Healthy House AnswerBook." Good health! John -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 4 11:51:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA11034 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:51:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28389 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA12280; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:46:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA02881 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:42:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA02876 for ; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 11:42:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA06696; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 08:41:56 -0700 Message-ID: <34366347.8C9B384@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 04 Oct 1997 08:39:51 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LREBBECK@acd.mhc.ab.ca CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Carpet glue X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <01IODU3VEFB6003FRF@ACD.MHC.AB.CA> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 228 Hi Lyle I don't have a lot of experience with carpets - as Jorg suggested it has been more a question of avoiding their usage and finding alternatives. I imagine the owner is wanting to use the carpet for acoustical purposes and its probably a commercial grade (which might be an advantage as manufacturers have been more responsive on IAQ concerns within commercial applications). The carpet fibres (or type of carpet) is less a concern than its installation and usage. Most carpets however are treated (the fibres coated) for stain resistance and you might want to do some research on this aspect as the chemical mix varies formaldehyde for eg. has been a common binder (commercial carpets can actually be better in this respect as the fibres and loops are coarser and shorter and can require less treatment). The underlay or attached foam backing is more of a concern as this is a foam product and can be quite unstable (again there has been a lot of changes in requirements for outgassing in such products ie. EEC standards and some North American manuf. might have made changes in their products to make them acceptable for European usage) A commercial product uses less and denser foam and again may be more acceptable. I have no experience with adhesives for carpets but I am sure other correspondents do (John Bower might have some product suggestions). If an adhesive is to be used you could suggest that they minimize their usage to a spot or grid application (this would make the contractor happy) The irony of carpet usage is that as the effects of the installation dissipate the negative aspects of the carpet itself become stronger (as they concentrate other pollutants, cleaners, etc.) You might want to talk to the club owner about their cleaning routine ie. products used, etc. If changes are being made to the HVAC you might want to ensure a source of filtered supply in the performance area - or as a personal strategy ensure adequate room ventilation before performing or bring a small fan with an attached hose to an ext. air source. Its unfortunate that public areas are treated in this way - I'm glad you are working to bring these concerns to the contractors and owners attention. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. LREBBECK@acd.mhc.ab.ca wrote: > > What suggestions could anybody make for carpet adhesive that > is VOC > free? I am a jazz musician in a dilemma. I have been hired to play a > steady > gig in a new club - but the owner wants to do some major renovating > before > opening - tile - carpet - paint as well as some remodeling. I have > Environmental Illness - with multiple chemical sensitivites - and when > our > church re-carpeted, it was over a year before I could go back without > major > symptoms. I last about 10 minutes in the new Walmart that just > opened. I know > there are many factors involved in construction/renovation, but I have > high > suspicions about the carpet glue. > I have talked to the contractor, and the tile adhesive he uses > is ECO > 300, which is aparently VOC free, and the spec sheet sounds pretty > good on it. > The only listed dangerous ingredient is silica crystalline,Quartz - > 10-30%. > The carpet glue he wants to use is the Roberts 3000 which doesn't > sound as > friendly, listing mineral spirits - 3 1/2 % as its hazardous > ingredient, and a > host of potential side effects from exposure. The contractor doesn't > seem to > have much time to discuss my concerns - his solution is to say - I > don't think > it will be a problem. Anyway - I've also explored the tacfast carpet > system, > and this sounds very good, but again, the local contractor is > unfamiliar with > this, and not too excited about finding out details. > Could anybody make suggestions as to the friendliest - most > chemical > free way of doing the renovating thing - especially the carpet. Are > all > carpets pretty much equally friendly themselves, chemical wise - > outside of > going to a wool carpet. This is a commercial venture, so durability > is a > concern. Does tile tend to be a chemically friendlyier way to go? The > plus > side of this is that the room is ventilated for a commercial/smoking > area, so > should be pretty good. > Thanks for any help. I've been really enjoying reading this > list. I > believe I have seen responses from someone in Calgary. Maybe we could > link up > in terms of supliers in this area for some friendlier products. > Medicine Hat > is pretty much in the dark when it comes to *greenbuilding*. > Lyle Rebbeck > Medicine Hat College > Medicine Hat, Alberta > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 5 02:49:14 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA24825 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 02:49:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA01999 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 02:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA10069; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 02:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id CAA17490 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 02:38:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA17486; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 02:38:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from NEHEMIAS (usr3.cwo.com [207.173.173.13]) by mail.cwo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02697; Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:42:25 -0700 Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:42:25 -0700 Message-Id: <199710050642.XAA02697@mail.cwo.com> X-Sender: nistone@mail.cwo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding-digest@crest.org From: nehemiah i stone Subject: GBlist: Re: windows in FLA Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 229 Beverly A. Weiter WROTE: ... >Here in S. Florida were are "tropical" : no cold or even >much cool - mostly just hot and hotter and very humid. > >I am getting conflicting info from local contractors - double vs. single, >argon filled vs reflective coating vs. >..... The main problem seems to be condensation in double paned windows >resulting from the extreme heat vs the excessive use of air conditioning >and the extreme humidity. I have a client who needs to change windows and I need a fast answer. Please note that the house is sited N/S but there is an >added problem with a child who is severely asthmatic and sensitive to dust. > Beverly, Carmody, Selkowitz and Heschong's book IS a great source. On some of the other acvice that Alex gave, I'm afraid I have to disagree {no offence Alex). If the problem that you are trying to avoid is condensation IN the windows, then what you need is a high quality dual glazed system. Neither argon, low-e coatings nor any other "add-on" will prevent condensation within the insulated galss unit. That is done by using quality spacer material and installing it correctly in the factory. As far as energy efficieny from windows in the So Fla environment, if the windows are not adequately shaded by building elements (overhangs, awnings, etc.) then you should go for glazing that has a low solar heat gain coefficient (SHGC). Achieving a low SHGC is not strictly the purpose of low-e coatings. The low emissivity slows down heat LOSSES. Most of the heat gain due to windows is not from conduction, but from direct solar radiation. Some low-e coatings also provide a low SHGC, but now all. Two glazings, both with a low-e coatings whose emissivity is ~0.20, can have SHGCs of 0.40 and 0.84. The latter would be best for the great frozen North (maximizing solar gains) and the former would be best for your climate (assuming that you want a low-e coating). There are other ways to achieve the energy efficiency benefits of a reduced cooling load. You should consider some of them: shade screens, awnings, deciduous trees, etc. I realize that not all of these would be appropriate for the client right now. I also realize that the windows need replacing so which winodw is the right one is really the question. However, consider that once you install a window with a very low SHGC, you cannot take advantage of the winter heating of the sun. If the house has a N/S orientation, this is a potential that it might be a shame to waste. For cooling purposes, I recommend glazings like Low-e squared for east and west facing windows. I recommend a high SHGC glass for the south windows and some means of taking advantage of the changing sun angle from winter to summer. BTW, for cooling, argon gives you NOTHING. It is a waste of your money to pay for it. With all but one technology that I know of, it is highly likely that most of it would escape within a few years anyway. Nehmiah Stone California Energy Commission p.s. You have a GREEEAT source os information on this topic in your backyard. You might want to give Florida Solar Energy Center a call; specifically Ross McCluney. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 5 12:46:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA03304 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:46:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02067 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:41:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA17598; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:42:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA23141 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:35:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m20.boston.juno.com (m20.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.190]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA23137 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bandjf@juno.com) by m20.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MGR24831; Sun, 05 Oct 1997 12:35:53 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Air Exchangers Message-ID: <19971005.122843.4567.4.BANDJF@juno.com> References: <199709230125.UAA96346@glacier.binc.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-31,39 From: bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 12:35:53 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 230 On Mon, 22 Sep 97 19:34:26 -0000 Chris & Ruth Koehn writes: >Sahara is a dehumidifier. As far as I know, it doesn't have any air >exchange capabilities. > >Air exchangers in warm humid climates are a tricky business. There >are >two basic types of energy exchanging wheels- enthalpic and >non-enthalpic. >I believe the non-enthalpic one is recommended for your climate. > >The problem comes in that when you introduce fresh outside air, you >also >introduce a bunch of humidity. Theoretically your A/C unit will >handle >this, but it has to work overtime to do so. > >Carrier makes a very good air exchanger. I have spec'd it multiple >times. >But be aware that they were all designed for heating climates. My hvac > >contractor, who loves a challenge, throws up his hands with this one. >If >you find a good solution, I'll love to hear it. > >Best, > >Chris Koehn >Top Ridge Timber Frame Homes >Pewaukee, WI > Thanks Chris for answering my post, and your input on this situation. Sorry it took me so long to respond. We had sent away and received some info on the Carrier unit, which someone else also recommenced. I find it interesting what you said that these units are really designed for heating climates because with all the humidity in the southern climates I'd just think this would be an important issue here- to people with allergies, for example. Thanks again for the info- We're working on solutions. I'll let you know what happens. Beth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 5 12:47:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA03313 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02183 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA17712; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA23150 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:36:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m20.boston.juno.com (m20.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.190]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA23142 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bandjf@juno.com) by m20.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MGS24831; Sun, 05 Oct 1997 12:35:53 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace Message-ID: <19971005.122843.4567.5.BANDJF@juno.com> References: <19970920.125737.7503.0.BANDJF@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-26,33-34,38-39,50-51,53 From: bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 12:35:53 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 231 On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 19:47:51 -0700 (PDT) "Mike O'Brien" writes: >Hello, Beth-- > >For once I'm going to beat Bruce Sullivan to the punch and tell you >that >the Sahara is made by DEC International, Inc. Therma-Stor Products >Group in >Madison Wisconsin. Their phone number is 1-800-533-7533. While we have >not >seen a Sahara installed here in Portland, our experience with other >DEC >products and their product engineers has been excellent. > >John Bower will probably have some insights into the smell you >described, >but I wondered if you had mentioned whether you have air conditioning? >If >so, what happens to the water that condenses on the air conditioning >coil? >Is it possible there is a back-up in the drip pan or drain hose that >would >allow algae or mold to grow, or to wet the drywall or insulation? > >Best, Mike > Hi Mike- Sorry it took a while to respond. Thanks for answering my post, and the info on the Saraha. . We have central air- that's the thorn in my side, because that's the air I have to breathe that is pumped into the house, and it is making me ill. To answer your question about what happens to the water that condenses on the coils- it goes into a drip pan into a drain pipe. We checked the water flowing from there to the outside and it is clear. There is no way for me to know what is causing this "odor", yet., but we are having the ducts checked for leaks and having "blower door testing" done this week. Hopefully this will give us some insight as to what is going on, so we can make some progress on rectifying the situation. One thing that was mentioned to me worth noting is that I always have the fan constantly running when the air conditioning is on, because of the "Pure Air " system that was installed, and the fact that i am trying to purify the air constantly when I am in the house. However, with the fan going- when the compressor is not running the way I understand this is that the coils would be warming up and causing more condensation. Instead of it going into the drip pan and out, the fan would be blowing the moisture back into the system. For me this is a "Catch 22, because I need that "Pure Air system running to help with my situation. So, That's where it is at right now. Waiting for testing, and then seeing where that leads us. Thanks Again, Beth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 5 12:47:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA03320 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:47:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02247 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:42:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA17655; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA23151 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:36:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m20.boston.juno.com (m20.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.190]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA23146 for ; Sun, 5 Oct 1997 12:36:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from bandjf@juno.com) by m20.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MGT24831; Sun, 05 Oct 1997 12:35:53 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Insulation/ attic- crawlspace Message-ID: <19971005.122843.4567.6.BANDJF@juno.com> References: <199709222206.RAA20456@mail.topher.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-52,69 From: bandjf@juno.com (J FESCO) Date: Sun, 05 Oct 1997 12:35:53 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 232 On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:06:07 -0500 ewestbrook writes: > >We have an HRV with a dessicant wheel (to remove moisture) and speed >control/on-off switch that works very well. It's made by AirXchange. >The >contact I have for them, which is about 18 mos. old, is Keith >Robinson, >Rockland, MA, 617-871-4816. I think the Model 503 cost about $700, >making it >the best value as well as the best performer that we could find. Ours >is set >up to blow the make-up air into the supply duct; talk with AirXchange >to see >what installation would suit your house. > >You might also check out EPA publication #400/1-90/002 (February >1990), >_Residential Air-Cleaning Devices: A Summary of Available >Information_. It >mainly discusses filter types and efficiencies. To order it, call the >Govt. >Publications Office in Washington DC. > >And just one more word on inside sources: particleboard and fabrics >(especially upholstery fabrics and permanent-press) are some of the >biggest >sources of formaldehyde. These are sometimes less obvious than things >like >carpet. Formaldehyde emissions peak fairly early and then decline >slowly, so >furniture that's 8-10 years old will cause fewer problems than new >furniture. Clothes you've washed a lot are probably okay, but sheets >can be >a big problem. I suppose, if you're especially sensitive to plastics, >even >some of the allergen-proof mattress covers could cause problems for >you. If >you don't know about them yet, Seventh Generation (now Harmony, I >think) >carries untreated "green" sheets, in both organic and nonorganic >versions. > >Looking around my house, I can only pray I never get sensitive to >plastic -- >our CD collection alone must have hundreds of square feet of surface >area! > >Good luck! Let me know if you have any questions on the air exchanger. Thanks Elena for replying to my situation. I appreciate the info your wrote me about how your system is set up with the 'AirXchange" - and the contact. We are in the process of getting the house tested, to hopefully make some progress in my "bad- air" conditioning odor. The inside of the house- as far as furnishings go- is very sparse. We have tile floors, the kitchen cabinets, however, we need to replace at some time. Just can't do everything at once. That's another area of investigation, at another time. I realize that one problem compounds another. We did have the house tested, and formaldehyde is not one of the problems- Thank goodness. The furniture is not new- and I use organic bedding. I do remember the days of plastic covers on things- I have organic all the way here. No plastic. Yes, Seventh Generation, is where I've purchased many quality blankets, and so on. I hear you loud and clear when you say you pray you never get sensitive to plastics. But we do try to find ways around everything. I thank you very much for you note, and the info. I'll surely let you know if I have more questions on the air exchanger. Thanks much! Beth. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 6 10:51:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27439 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:51:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA14240 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:46:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA12304; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:46:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21090 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:41:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA21086 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:41:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KSM26301; Mon, 06 Oct 1997 10:42:31 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: windows for S. Florida Message-ID: <19971006.092538.4495.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,7-12 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 10:42:31 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 233 To Chris, Nehemiah et al, Thanks for the response from all of you. Your comments are greatly appreciated. I now feel well armed to do battle with the contractors and sales people. My clients, too, will be happy to be rid of the windows which have so plagued them since buying the house. My best to you all for your generous advice. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 6 10:51:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27445 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:51:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA14278 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:46:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA12232; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA21111 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:41:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA21106 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KSL26301; Mon, 06 Oct 1997 10:42:31 EDT To: LREBBECK@acd.mhc.ab.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Carpet glue Message-ID: <19971006.092538.4495.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <01IODU3VEFB6003FRF@acd.mhc.ab.ca> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-16 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 10:42:31 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 234 Hi, Read you question re carpet glue etc. While I agree, no carpet would be best, if the owner insists on carpet tell him to insist on W.O. Taylor adhesive for the carpet. For paint (just as much a potential outgassing source) I suggest Non-Toxica (available through Color Wheel stores) or, failing that, Glidden 2000 or Benjamin Moore, Pristine. Non-Toxica, a paint used extensively in medical offices, is also available by calling 800-731-5007. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Inc. Boca Raton, FL 561-852-4262 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 6 12:25:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA29097 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:25:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06163 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA14829; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:21:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA23853 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:12:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA23849 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:12:02 -0400 (EDT) From: DSaum@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA01396; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971006121218_272434864@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: DSaum@epsilon.nova.org Subject: GBlist: Nationwide blower door contractor list? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 235 I get a lot of calls asking for the location of nearest contractor who can do a blower door test, duct leakage test, or other forms of house doctoring. So I am putting up a web page that offers a free listing to contractors who offer these tests. See my new page http://www.infiltec.com/inf-bdc.htm If you want to be listed on this page at no charge, please send me the following information: ZIP, URL(optional), company name, email address(optional), your name, phone(xxx-xxx-xxxx), city, state(xx) Please DO NOT send it to the Green Building List. To help reduce my data entry, please DO send it in the format above to my company email address DSaum@infiltec.com The minimum requirement for listing is offering blower door tests to the public, but you should also indicate what other house doctoring you provide (duct testing, pressure balancing with micromanometer, HERS auditing, energy audit, home inspection, etc.) I may add more information like this to the current format. Ciao, Dave Saum Infiltec PO Box 8007, Falls Church, VA 22041 703-820-7696, fax 703-671-9350 DSaum@infiltec.com http://www.infiltec.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 6 12:33:25 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA29233 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA07972 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:28:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA14956; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:26:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA24097 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:19:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.33]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA24093 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from itjfvkli ([12.69.123.82]) by mtigwc04.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with ESMTP id AAA6028 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 16:22:11 +0000 From: "Mary McDaniel" To: Subject: GBlist: Thanks for info building bake-outs Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 12:26:45 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971006162209.AAA6028@itjfvkli> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 236 Many thanks for all the information on pros and cons of building bake-outs. I was most impressed with the depth and knowledge of this group and certainly appreciate all the suggestions. They have been given to the building manager and we are hopeful the management will listen to some of the suggestions. Mary McDaniel marmac1@worldnet.att.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 6 17:44:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA01967 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:44:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA28402 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:39:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA01368; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:38:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA04868 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:28:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout37.mail.aol.com (emout37.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA04862 for ; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:28:51 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout37.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA20815; Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971006172736_1965618878@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: environs.com@juno.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 237 In a message dated 10/1/97 11:06:52 AM, you wrote: <> Beverly, In Florida I'd look for windows that have a Shading Coefficient of around 0.35 to cut down on solar transimission. My own experience over the years has lead me to believe that large temperature difference between the inner and outer glazings and dramatic cycling of the outer pane temperature are strongly linked to with edge seal failure. I believe expansion and contraction flexs the spacer-sealant system. Edge seal failure is annoying. Some manufacturers make panels easier to replace than others. Ask about that directly - what's it take to replace a panel? Another approach would be to use windows that are air vented, and to slightly pressurize the building (if it's air conditioned that is). That would be a single glazed window with a tight fitting storm. That combination would have very little condensation between the panels. See if you can get hard coat low-e in the prime window. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 7 09:18:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA20733 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:18:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA22836 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA22967; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA23767 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:08:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA23763; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:08:37 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA01455; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971007090903_-926440725@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Windows Workshop at EEBA 11/5: Snapshot MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 238 Friends, A final update on the "Windows" workshop scheduled for Wednesday, November 5 at the EEBA conference in Denver. We have assembled a pretty good group of "experts" to talk about a variety of issues related to window, door and skylight performance. We have also collected some fun "show and tell" to hammer home some old problems and some new solutions. And then there are the "horror stories".... we're still collecting photos and stories to share, so if you have some great horror stories of your own, send them - bring them - share them!!!! Last but not least, we are going to talk about the future.... new glazing and frame technologies, future building code issues and other "futuristic" issues. The agenda is as follows: (minor modifications allowed) {handouts in brackets} "Windows: Forget What You Think You Know." By R. Christopher Mathis, Mathis Consulting Company. This presentation will focus on de-bunking old "rules-of-thumb" regarding windows and energy performance. New framing, glazing and spacer materials will be discussed. "Don’t trust your eyes" and other "new rules" will be discussed. New tools to help determine the appropriate energy efficiency expectations and ways to ensure "getting what you pay for" will also be addressed. How to read the variety of product labels. {Residential Windows Book, NFRC Directory, Sample energy labels, Sample specification language.} "Windows: Prioritizing Performance Attributes." By John Carmody, University of Minnesota. This presentation will give builders immediate tools with which to prioritize and select product energy performance. Based on the recent book "Residential Windows: A Guide to New Technology and Energy Performance", attendees will be given a series of new, climate specific-fact sheets to help in selecting the appropriate windows for their projects. {Window Selection Fact Sheets} "Regulations: What Does the Code Language REALLY mean." By Garrett Stone, Brickfield, Burchette and Ritts PC. This presentation will provide the audience with the latest updates on energy codes as they relate to window performance. Window language in the Model Energy Code and ASHRAE 90.1 and 90.2 will be reviewed. Federal and several state codes will also be presented. How these codes may impact your new and retrofit construction decisions will be discussed. Real world code compliance examples and solutions will be presented {State code map, MECcheck Computer Program} "Window Horror Stories: More than Just a Scary Movie." Chris will lead an interactive discussion. He has (unfortunately) collected a number of real world "horror stories" he will share. The audience is invited to bring their own collection of window-related horror stories for what is sure to be a lively, interactive discussion. Slides (not for the faint of heart). "The Future of Windows: From Low to High Tech." By Dariush Arasteh, Staff Scientist, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. One of the nation’s leading windows researchers will tease the audience with some of the technological innovations the future may bring. Several examples of some of the "just-around-the-corner" technologies will be on display. This should be an exciting glimpse into the future of window technology, energy efficiency and product attributes. {Show and tell materials and samples} "Installation Matters: Where the Rubber Meets the Road." By Steve Easley. Even the most energy efficient windows can be a real "dog" if not installed properly. However, we never REALLY know what the conditions of the installation will be, especially in replacement jobs. Real world installation headaches will be presented and practical solutions will be shown. {Slides, Installation checklist and guide} Additional Notes: Audience participation is essential. Discussion/Q&A will occur throughout the day. Real world products will be available for touching and examining. Thanks for all your input to date. Keep those horror stories coming in. Hope to see you all in Denver! Chris Mathis MCSquared 5249 Columbia Road Columbia, MD 21044 Ph: 301-596-1931 Fax: 410-964-1424 rcmathis1@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 7 13:00:14 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA25547 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:00:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA24733 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:55:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04345; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:53:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA00823 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:46:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net (denmark-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA00818 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:46:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.244.132] (1Cust4.max3.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.244.132]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA15792 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:49:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710071649.JAA15792@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Subject: GBlist: Wood Use Statistics for Home Building? Date: Tue, 7 Oct 97 09:48:28 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 239 Hello Everyone I'm looking for some statistics about the amount of wood that's used in homes and hopefully the amount that can be saved by various construction practices. Rob W. sent me a preview copy of the wonderful NRDC report on this topic which does contain some figures. However, I'm looking for additional sources. I recall an organization in the SF Bay area...was it the Wood Reduction Clearinghouse? If anyone can point me to this or other sources, I'd be very grateful. Thanks Bruce S. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 7 14:01:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26688 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:01:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA12968 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:56:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA06080; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA03171 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:50:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA03166 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.119.60.176] (li-ppp11.hevanet.com [204.119.60.176]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19028 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710050642.XAA02697@mail.cwo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: windows in FLA Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 240 >Beverly A. Weiter WROTE: >>..... The main problem seems to be condensation in double paned windows >>resulting from the extreme heat vs the excessive use of air conditioning >>and the extreme humidity. I have a client who needs to change windows and >I need a fast answer. Please note that the house is sited N/S but there is an >>added problem with a child who is severely asthmatic and sensitive to dust. >> > >Beverly Hi, Beverly-- One difference between seals in windows is the material and the way its applies--inexpensive windows may have a layer of polysulfide on either side of the spacer, better windows may have a double seal--poly plus butyl along the edge of the glazing unit. I think that Terry is right about the differential expansion and contraction. And here along our windy coast we see a lot of foggy windows, especially big view windows, so I speculate that wind vibrating the outer pane can cause the seal to fail. That would seem to indicate that smaller windows would be more resistant to this failure. One window guy here told me he thinks the seals can be decomposed by UV so he recommends keeping the window edges shaded, either by the frame itself or the building structure. We definitely have seen seals fail where glazing units in site-built windows were not supported properly along the bottom with butyl blocks, or they were sloped in sunspace/greenhouse walls and the support was only holding up the bottom glass. Best, Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 7 14:56:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA28650 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA00082 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA07533; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:51:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA05045 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:46:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA05007; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 14:45:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA98214; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:45:13 -0600 Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:45:12 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: RCMathis1@aol.com Cc: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Windows Workshop at EEBA, Snapshot In-Reply-To: <971007090903_-926440725@emout05.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 241 Chris: Further to your window snap shot and the particular aspects quoted below: 1) are there any discussions/workshops/booth on SunPipes and similar devices? 2) are there any real-world doers/experiences/prototypes with high performance windows besides wishful thinking that "may" or maynot be relevant some time? 3) Will Southwall or Andersen be there or discuss their most recent work/products? 4) Is there any presentaton on simplifying the window lables to make them meaningful to most users? 5) will there be any discussion about multi-purpose windows (ie. PV, daylighting, curtain wall, thermal collector)? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 7 Oct 1997 RCMathis1@aol.com wrote: > issues related to window, door and skylight performance. > we are going to talk about the future.... new glazing and frame > technologies, future building code issues and other "futuristic" issues. > > How to read the variety of product labels. {Residential Windows Book, NFRC Directory, Sample energy labels, Sample specification language.} > technological innovations the future may bring. Several examples of some of > the "just-around-the-corner" technologies will be on display. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 7 15:25:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA29144 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:25:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA10805 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:21:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA08548; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06151 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:16:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from sweden.it.earthlink.net (sweden-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA06147 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.246.56] (1Cust56.max6.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.246.56]) by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA26149 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 12:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710071918.MAA26149@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Wood Use Statistics for Home Building? Date: Tue, 7 Oct 97 12:17:41 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 242 Leslie Thanks for the lead to Green Home. I'm embarassed to admit that we sell that book in our catalog and I did'nt know this information was in there. >What is the title of the NRDC publication you mentioned? The title is "Saving Wood, Saving Money, Saving Trees: A Handbook on Efficient Wood-Use for Building Industry Professionals." The authors are Ann Edminster and Sami Yassa. Rob mentioned it on the list a couple of weeks ago. It's undergoing a review. I don't know when the final version will be published. Bruce ------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: http://www.oikos.com/ E-mail: iris@oikos.com ---------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 7 15:42:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA29434 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:42:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA16013 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:37:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA08959; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:37:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA06703 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:32:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA06696 for ; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:32:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.179] (pm1a15.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.145]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19367; Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:35:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:35:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199710050642.XAA02697@mail.cwo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Mike O'Brien" From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: windows in FLA Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 243 Mike O'Brien offered the following pearls of wisdom: > >One difference between seals in windows is the material and the way its >applies--inexpensive windows may have a layer of polysulfide on either side >of the spacer, better windows may have a double seal--poly plus butyl along >the edge of the glazing unit. > The problem with seals in windows tends to be much greater in coastal environments. Harbor seals have been a particular problem in some areas. Not only do they lead to infiltration, but they also block the view. If you're experiencing one of these problems, I would call the Monterey Bay Aquarium or the Woods Hole Oceanographic Research Station (depending on your coastal orientation). I'm not sure what to suggest for double seals. Good luck, -Alex Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 8 11:31:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27717 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:31:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA23514 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:26:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA05627; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA14739 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:17:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14735 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:17:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LsQ26285; Wed, 08 Oct 1997 11:19:21 EDT To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Carpet glue Message-ID: <19971008.100142.8207.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,7-8,10-11,14-16 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 11:19:21 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 244 Dear Jorg, First, let me say, I am red faced - the company is W.F. Taylor, not W.O. Taylor. Their number is 800-397-4583 andwe show a contact person as Fay. Our local supplier which caters to the flooring installers carries W.F. Taylor as a standard. They have all the W.F.Taylor line , including glues for linoleum, VCT tile etc. Check with your local carpet installers. Most should have this or an equivalent. Natural Cork in August, GA, just told me of another brand called Chapco, which they co-recommend with Taylor for installation of their cork floorings. Beverly ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 8 11:32:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27738 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA23658 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA05682; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:27:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) id LAA14756 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:17:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14752 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 11:17:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LsP26285; Wed, 08 Oct 1997 11:19:21 EDT To: joanne@livos-us.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Carpet glue Message-ID: <19971008.100142.8207.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199710061611.KAA23115@livos-us.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,9-12,14-22 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 1997 11:19:21 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 245 Dear Joanne, My "snail mail" is 21000 Boca Rio Road, Suite a-27, Boca Raton,FL 33433. If you are talking about Livos or Bau-Biologie I already have info on them but will not use the products here in FL. There are no preservatives and we have had trouble with spoilage due to the high heat. There is also a slight odor or oranges which some people react to. In addition, custom colors are a pain to achieve. With Non-Toxica, the plant is here in Fl. There are no preservatives but delivery is 3 days and can be gotten as needed in a full range of medium to light colors, including custom color matching, thanks to the Huls tinting system. I have been in this business 5 years and have checked out a variety of paints, including the AFM line as well and think I have finally found a viable solution. Thanks for your interest. Beverly Weiter ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 8 17:20:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA15595 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA14879 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA14082; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA28174 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:08:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.2.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA28166 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 17:08:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.175.211.90] (hd20-090.hil.compuserve.com [206.175.211.90]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA22995; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:11:32 -0700 Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:11:32 -0700 Message-Id: <199710082111.OAA22995@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: New Web site (HealthyHomeDesigns) To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 246 Green Builders and Indoor Environment Friends: ..................................................................... New Web site !! (Healthy Home Designs) B.E.S.T. recently completed a revised and updated web site for Linda Mason Hunter, well known author and provider of "Healthy Home" plans and design assistance since 1990. Please check out her new (final beta) web-site at: http://www.nrg-builder.com/healthyhomedesigns which replaces her former site on the "Green Homes Marketplace" which is, sadly, going out of business. A key feature of Healthy Home Designs is the offering of home plans specifically created for healthful living by a fine group of architects and designers she works with. We hope you find this new website useful. Regards, Bion (comments welcome) ---------------< Contact Information >----------------- Mr. Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, Maryland 20773 USA http://www.nrg-builder.com Voice# 410-867-8000 fax# 301-889-0889 ------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 8 23:53:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA26219 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA03239 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:48:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA23686; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:45:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) id XAA10214 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:38:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mhc.ab.ca (gate.mhc.ab.ca [192.139.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA10210 for ; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:37:59 -0400 (EDT) From: LREBBECK@acd.mhc.ab.ca Received: from ns.mhc.ab.ca ([192.168.1.1]) by gate.mhc.ab.ca with ESMTP id <42628>; Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:05:32 -0600 Received: from ACD.MHC.AB.CA by ACD.MHC.AB.CA (PMDF V5.0-3 #5923) id <01IOKU4P97ZA004ZDT@ACD.MHC.AB.CA> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 08 Oct 1997 21:41:53 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:41:53 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Carpet glue - thanks To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <01IOKU4P97ZC004ZDT@ACD.MHC.AB.CA> X-VMS-To: IN%"greenbuilding@crest.org" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Note: Mail transport via Digital Equipment of Canada Ltd. Calgary gateway. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 247 Thank you to all who responded to my querries about carpet glue. I have passed this on to the club owner - and tired to convince him of the long term value of tile, but the bottom line is, he isn't committed to long term unless this new club really proves itself. It is frustrating - he hears me, and wants to try and accomodate me, but he has cost at heart, along with past patterns of how things are done, and the reality of never having had to deal with a situation like this before. I apprecieated the point of being the canary in the mine, but few see it like this unless they are empathetic friends, or suffer from some silimar health condition. So - it looks like the best I can hope for is a larger percentage of tile to carptet than was previously planned - a hope for the lowest toxisity paint possible - the lowest VOC adhesives this contractor can be convinced to find - and a promise of running the air exchange at as high a fresh air rate as possible - and doors left open. Nothing guaranteed - but at least one wealthy business owner, a flooring contractor and a painter have been introduced to the idea of concerning themselves with the side effects of building materials and their effects on indoor air quality. Maybe a small concession if I can't go into the club to play, but I have to try and see something positive in this. You are all a wonderful source of information, and I can only thank you for your help and understanding, and encourage you in your work in this area that will prove to be one of the most important of the coming decade. Lyle Rebbeck lrebbeck@acd.mhc.ab.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 10 12:07:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25742 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:07:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19530 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:02:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA17644; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA02798 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:46:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from geocities.com (mail3.geocities.com [206.111.43.203]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA02793 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:46:39 -0400 (EDT) From: pierremasson@geocities.com Received: from LOCALNAME (ts1a-d138.cht.auracom.com [198.167.17.138]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA11128 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710101549.IAA11128@geocities.com> X-Sender: pierremasson@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Cedar shingles and alternatives to tar paper Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 248 Hello all, I'm new to the list, but I'm sure I'll find much useful information here (as on the Strawbale list!) and hope that I can contribute some too. My present question concerns tar paper and alternatives (if any) in the context of a cedar shingle roof. Is the paper really required, any technique for building without it? I'm planning to sheath the roof with T&G boards, then put on horizontal strapping (1x3) so as to get a "cold roof" (as protection against ice dams). I live in Prince Edward Island which is a fairly windy place although I'm not on the coast, but 20 km inland. I did look in the Crest archives but I didn't hit upon anything that seemed to address this question (I'll admit that I'm never sure if I really get what I'm searching for). Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. Bye for now. Pierre. pierremasson@geocities.com Charlottetown, PEI, Canada. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 10 15:13:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA01429 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:13:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA16410 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA03645; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA09162 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:56:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pathway1.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [204.191.122.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA09158 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:56:34 -0400 (EDT) From: timex@pathcom.com Received: from ts7l14.pathcom.com (ts7l14.pathcom.com [209.112.16.130]) by pathway1.pathcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA25131 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:58:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710101858.OAA25131@pathway1.pathcom.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:55:20 +0000 Subject: GBlist: Dream Home Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 249 Builders: The "Dream Home" at this year's Home Show in Toronto was supposedly constructed in 72 hours using this stuff by Actech-USA and distributed by Affordable Building Concepts in Canada. It is panels of 26 gauge metal skin and stiffeners (?) which combine forming unit, vapour and air barrier, strapping and insulation, all in one piece. They claim: - reduce energy consumption a minimum of 40-50% - resistant to decay, fungus, moisture, mildew and insects - fireproof - contains no CFCs, HCFCs or formaldehyde - withstands 170 mph winds - certified by State of CA earthquake building code - accommodates virtually any exterior or interior finish Whaddya all think? Too good to be true? Has anyone actually priced and/or worked with this product? Any info would be welcome - thanks Marilyn http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Keep on keepin' on. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 10 21:54:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA10716 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:54:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA09134 for ; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA09984; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:49:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA19785 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:44:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com (emout15.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA19758; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:43:29 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA08160; Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:46:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 21:46:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971010214431_1444087674@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Window Warranties 101 - Draft 1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 250 Friends, Several asked about "window warranty" issues, so here is a first stab. I’ll welcome any additional comments and suggestions. (Perhaps we can turn this into a "consumer checklist" for future publication.) Also, those of you that might have some suggestions about how to take this "product warranty" information and couple it with some similar "installation warranty" guideline PLEASE HELP!!!!! ****Window Warranties 101**** When picking windows there are MANY things that influence decisions. Performance, looks, colors, durability, maintenance. ONE issue is WARRANTY. What is covered and what is not. Following are a few pointers of things to consider when comparing window warranties. General Warranty Rules: 1. Look for "Non-prorated" Warranties. Many warranties cover a LOT at the start.... but the coverage declines with the age of the product. Sometimes this decline is rapid, with the effective coverage diminishing to worthlessness in as little as 3 years! READ THE FINE PRINT. This "prorated" structure means that if you pay $200 for the window and later have to replace it, the manufacturer may only cover $50 or $100 of the replacement costs! And this does NOT include installation! Recommendation: Look for non-prorated warranty structures that cover the entirety of the original purchase price for the term of the warranty. 2. Look for long terms on the glass (IG) Units. Sealed Insulating Glass (IG) units are among the most critical components of delivering long term energy and visual performance of a window. (I’m not going to talk about warranties on single glazing because I can’t recommend them anywhere.) The seal on an IG unit is essential to the protection of low-e coatings and films as well as for retaining argon, krypton or other gasses that improve energy performance. When the seal fails, "out goes the good air and in comes the bad air...." Moisture in the air attacks the low-e coatings and corrosion (rust) begins to form. At the same time moisture condenses on the interior surfaces, dries out and leaves stains on the glass that can’t be cleaned. There goes the view. So probably the single most important element of ensuring PERFORMANCE over time is a good IG warranty. Recommendation: Look for an IG warranty of at least 10 years, and preferably 20. 3. Look for fully transferable warranties. When you go to sell you house, how often do you take your window with you? If there is still "value" left in the warranty, shouldn’t you be able to use that value in marketing your home? Some warranties are good "for the original buyer" only. Doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. Recommendation: Look for warranties that are "fully transferable" to future owners. 4. Look for good coverage on hardware. Window operations are among many homeowners’ greatest headaches. The lock broke. The balance broke. The sash sticks. The crank handle broke. These seemingly "minor" headaches can turn into the inability to catch that fall breeze, a safety concern for a child or other concerns. A good window with bad hardware is a bad window. Many warranties don’t say anything about hardware! Some are more explicit. Make sure all "non-glass components" (that will include the hardware) is similarly guaranteed. Recommendation: Look for at least 10 years complete coverage on all non-glass components. (Also look for manufacturers that maintain inventory of replacement parts.) 5. Don’t expect your window warranty to cover installation. This may seem obvious to some, but many get caught in a finger-pointing battle over "who is responsible". Rarely will you find installation covered in a product manufacturer’s warranty [unless a manufacturer installs the product themselves and offers a warranty on the installation.] If making a significant investment in windows, you may want to seek some type of warranty coverage from the contractor or builder. Sound crazy? Just ask the folk in North Carolina involved in the class action suit on wall failures. Who is responsible for the accuracy and integrity of the installation? Though the jury is still out on that case, it is a good example of the need for clarity in "who is responsible". Similarly, if a wall is built improperly allowing water to get into places on a window where it is "not supposed to get to", window performance can be compromised. Recommendation: Spend as much energy looking into who is standing behind the installation as you do in looking at the window product warranties. 6. Environmental exclusions. Some warranties specifically exclude certain environments. Such as area with high humidity or salt spray/coastal environs. These exclusions may apply to the hardware, the finishes, or the glass. Some exclusions, such as damage caused by acid rain, are nearly universal. Recommendations: Again, read the exclusions in the fine print to determine if any particular environmental exclusions apply. 7. Finishes. Some manufacturers offer warranty coverage on finishes (paints, coatings, cladding). Others do not. Repainting, restaining or refinishing are also a "mixed bag" of coverage among manufacturers. Recommendation: Review the warranty to identify any limitations on the coverage for finishes. 8. Performance. You will rarely find warranties that specifically address long-term aspects of expected performance, such as U-factor and air leakage values over time. These are embodied (somewhat) in the coverage on the IG units and the hardware and weatherstripping. Hopefully NFRC will successfully address energy performance durability in its efforts. Other issues, such as operation, water integrity and others will probably not surface in most warranties. Recommendation: If the rest of the warranty passes muster, you are probably dealing with a manufacturer that desires to protect their reputation, and, as such, is probably going to deliver some reliable performance information. Look for NFRC labels. Look for third party certification of air leakage, water penetration and structural performance. Look to see if specific performance attributes are covered in the warranty. There are other issues related to warranty repairs, replacement and service that should be considered. These include: (1) availability of replacement parts and inventory; (2) ability to respond quickly to a service request; and, (3) doing business with a company that will be in business next year or 5 years after you bought the product or for the life of the warranty. Again, I welcome any additions/thoughts on improving this list and recommendations. Sorry for the length of the post. (If you would like to spare the lists further commentary on these items, I welcome comments sent directly to me. However, if you have some great additions or refinements, I'm sure the lists would appreciate them.) R. Christopher Mathis MCSquared rcmathis1@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 11 11:13:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27123 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:13:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA24498 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA15976; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:07:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA29399 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:02:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA29395 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 11:02:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA24414; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:59:46 -0700 Message-ID: <343F93F2.926C7F53@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 07:57:54 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pierremasson@geocities.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Cedar shingles and alternatives to tar paper X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199710101549.IAA11128@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 251 I've been in buildings that had cedar (shake) roofs that were over 100 years old. From the attic you could see daylight through the shakes and on wet days moisture seeping through. This type of roof is highly dependent on air flow to maintain any integrity and so was traditionally installed without any paper or sheathing that could trap moisture or debris or limit air movement. When code requirements for papering a roof became enforced in our area a number of older roofers either refused to do shake roofs or provide any warranty. The basic thought was that the roof would last as long as the roofing paper. Shakes are the most traditional of wood roofing products i.e. they are split (along the grain) from very premium chunks of old growth cedar. Their durability is a factor of both tightness of grain and that the grain lines are intact (not cut as in shingles). Short supplies of old growth lumber are having an impact on the quality of shakes and shingles produced. The real question for me is not really about function but appropriateness. The trees used are irreplaceable and their value incalculable. I would look at some of the wood/cement composite shingles being produced as an alternative. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S Shakes or shingles are not a sustainable product pierremasson@geocities.com wrote: > > Hello all, > > I'm new to the list, but I'm sure I'll find much useful information > here (as > on the Strawbale list!) and hope that I can contribute some too. > > My present question concerns tar paper and alternatives (if any) in > the > context of a cedar shingle roof. Is the paper really required, any > technique for building without it? I'm planning to sheath the roof > with T&G > boards, then put on horizontal strapping (1x3) so as to get a "cold > roof" > (as protection against ice dams). I live in Prince Edward Island > which is a > fairly windy place although I'm not on the coast, but 20 km inland. I > did > look in the Crest archives but I didn't hit upon anything that seemed > to > address this question (I'll admit that I'm never sure if I really get > what > I'm searching for). > > Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated. > Bye for now. Pierre. > > > pierremasson@geocities.com > Charlottetown, PEI, Canada. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 11 17:27:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA08258 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA27264 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA19884; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:22:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id RAA05593 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:16:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA05588 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:16:31 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id R\Y12093; Sat, 11 Oct 1997 17:18:54 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: kanderson@ase.org, SEBodzin@lbl.gov, sei@solarenergy.org, hegeman@unep.frw.uva.nl, cleantx@aol.com, glark@juno.com, ebn@ebuild.com, krabago@edf.org, sloan@vera.com, r1346@aol.com, webmaster@abuildnet.com, rclark16@juno.com, johnloch@mtt.com, realgood@realgoods.com, bdhoward@ix.netcom.com, bspeyer@texas-one.org Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 15:50:18 -0500 Subject: GBlist: Home Show Message-ID: <19971011.162503.3630.3.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,5-6,10-11,16-17,20-21,30-38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 252 This rainy weekend is the weekend for the House Beautiful Show at the AlamoDome in San Antonio, Texas. Went to see the sights yesterday as I usually do. I justify this to myself as market research. If anything, this show is an indicator of the state of the building industry in South Texas. The show this year was dominated by multiple booths for security companies, water conditioning companies and various cleaning products. Gee, now that I reflect, it sort of looked like the Home Shopping Network on TV. I did count five builders who's name I actually recognized. One of these was a (so-called) builder of mobile homes. No electricians, no plumbers, no masons, few roofers, some flooring (?). It seemed to me, very few vendors who's products or services could be described as renewable or sustainable. I should note possible exceptions for the booths of Energrid (styrofoam-cinder blocks?), SolaTube, and Skylights over Texas. Maybe the landscapers? To the show's credit it was populated mostly by small businesses. But I wonder if this is because the region's substantial architects, builders, contractors and associated businesses (SBT) recognize that this show and it's sister show in the Spring does not return business activity for the expense? An empty 10 X 10 booth now costs around $1000.00 for a 2 1/2 day event. The show then charges attendees (customers) for parking and attendance. This show and few of it's participants seem to be conscious of the need and the economic opportunity for green sustainable products and services. Would someone dial 911 and send the "Green EMS" to South Texas please? Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 12 12:20:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA11097 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:20:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA16169 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:15:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA28288; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:15:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA21174 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:10:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA21170 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:10:30 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA05663 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 12:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971012121317_1300309031@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: RCMathis1@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Window Warranties 101 - Draft 1 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 253 Hi Chris, I have three things to add from my own experience with windows: 1) I do not like seal failure on insulated glass. The SIGMA numbers from 1995 indicate an average failure rate after 15 years of around 5% for CBA rated units and 13% for C and CB units. (The rate seems to be heavily influenced by the San Francisco Bay area). My own experience in the northeast is similar to these figures 5% to 10%. I've used Anderson (which had an essentially zero failure rate back in the welded edge glass days - although I had some of the ones that turned blue), Weathershield, Eagle, Hurd, Pella (whose air - vented units survive transient fog), Hobeka and a bunch of others whose names I no longer remember and they all had failures within 10 years. The glazing, sash and frame elements of a window last decades longer than that. I've restored or reused windows that were 50 or 60 years old. I think I'm going to take another look at air vented windows. 2) Some IG units are far harder to replace than others. Sometimes the sash and associated components that actually hold the glass are designed so that it is difficult or impossible to replace the IG unit without modifying the sash or replacing it entirely. I'd ask about the ease of replacement. 3) A warranty is of no value if the manufacturer is out of business. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 12 19:01:56 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA25893 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:01:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA21855 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA02526; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA29945 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:51:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from november.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA29941 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 18:51:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p180.ts1.diac.com (p180.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.180]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA02446 for ; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 23:00:40 GMT Received: by p180.ts1.diac.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCD730.FCD12BE0@p180.ts1.diac.com>; Sun, 12 Oct 1997 17:05:05 -0600 Message-ID: <01BCD730.FCD12BE0@p180.ts1.diac.com> From: Gary Dean Gray To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: greenbuilding-digest V1 #409 Am i unsubscribed? Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 17:04:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCD730.FCE1F4C0" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 254 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCD730.FCE1F4C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello is anyone there? ---------- From: greenbuilding-digest[SMTP:owner-greenbuilding-digest@crest.org] Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 1997 5:40 PM To: greenbuilding-digest@crest.org Subject: greenbuilding-digest V1 #409 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCD730.FCE1F4C0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgYXAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG ADABAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAE0AAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABncmVlbmJ1aWxkaW5nQGNyZXN0Lm9yZwBTTVRQAGdyZWVuYnVpbGRpbmdAY3Jlc3Qu b3JnAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgADMAEAAAAYAAAAZ3JlZW5idWlsZGluZ0BjcmVz dC5vcmcAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAGgAAACdncmVlbmJ1aWxkaW5nQGNyZXN0Lm9y ZycAAAACAQswAQAAAB0AAABTTVRQOkdSRUVOQlVJTERJTkdAQ1JFU1QuT1JHAAAAAAMAADkAAAAA CwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAADZjsBCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90 ZQAxCAEEgAEANAAAAFJFOiBncmVlbmJ1aWxkaW5nLWRpZ2VzdCBWMSAjNDA5IEFtIGkgdW5zdWJz Y3JpYmVkPwBDEQEFgAMADgAAAM0HCgAMABEABAA5AAAAOAEBIIADAA4AAADNBwoADAARAAIAEQAA AA4BAQmAAQAhAAAARUJFQTk2ODIyMzQzRDExMUEwMUM0NDQ1NTM1NDAwMDAA0AYBA5AGAAADAAAS AAAACwAjAAAAAAADACYAAAAAAAsAKQAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAgMZGQmPXvAEeAHAAAQAAADQA AABSRTogZ3JlZW5idWlsZGluZy1kaWdlc3QgVjEgIzQwOSBBbSBpIHVuc3Vic2NyaWJlZD8AAgFx AAEAAAAWAAAAAbzXY0I/gpbq7EMjEdGgHERFU1QAAAAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8M AQAAAA8AAABnZ3JheUBkaWFjLmNvbQAAAwAGEIrhMfoDAAcQwwAAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAEhFTExP SVNBTllPTkVUSEVSRT8tLS0tLS0tLS0tRlJPTTpHUkVFTkJVSUxESU5HLURJR0VTVFNNVFA6T1dO RVItR1JFRU5CVUlMRElORy1ESUdFU1RAQ1JFU1RPUkdTRU5UOlcAAAAAAgEJEAEAAABuAQAAagEA AEEDAABMWkZ1P0B0dv8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJx EeJzdGVtAoMzdwLkBxMCgH0KgAjPCdk78RYPMjU1AoAKgQ2xC2DgbmcxMDMUUAsKFFGFC/JjAEAg SGVsFaAqIAQAIABweQIgZSBkdGgEkGU/CoUKi2wQaTE4MALRaS0xPDQ0DfAM0B4zC1kxNtcKoANg E9BjBUAtIFcKh9cfCwwwH9ZGA2E6IV4f1qUMgiAJw2J1AxBkC4AUZy0loGcHkHRbU0BNVFA6b3cb wHK2LSUfJiFABQAmIS4FsPxnXSD/Ig0GYAIwIz8kSwZXCYAbwHNkYXksJCBPICBvYgSQIDACOC2w MTk5NyA1YjoeUCBQTSkPIg1Ufm8rTyRPJ18oZy9fKh51PGJqIBExfzKPJV4gVjUa0CMeUDkcXx1j MzZ/HtcaRR/WO788zRy2FTEAAUEAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMCA96uJi17wBQAAIMCA9 6uJi17wBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAACsuQ== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCD730.FCE1F4C0-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 13 07:25:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA28935 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA21991 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA09737; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:18:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id HAA13422 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:13:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id HAA13418 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:13:35 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id HAA18941 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 07:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971013071630_-1562754413@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: TBren46501@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Window Warranties 101 - Draft 1 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 255 Terry, Thanks for the contributions! And I wholeheartedly agree with the IG issues. I am tired of "'splaining" about IG failures.... that is ONE of the reasons I focus so heavily on the IG warranty and the manufacturer staying in business! Will certainly add your comments and thoughts to the doc. Question: How can you tell a consumer what to look for in sash design when they are buying a window? Kinda hard to say "look for glass that is easy to replace" when in the same breath you are saying "look for glass that will last a long time/or will never HAVE to replace".... Any thoughts? Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 13 12:16:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA11826 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:16:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA00141 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:11:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA14199; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA20059 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:59:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout02.mail.aol.com (emout02.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.93]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA20055 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:59:49 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA22311; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971013120102_1376353345@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: terrain@cow-net.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: R-20 windows and other (possible) wastes Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 256 In a message dated 10/13/97 11:39:03 AM, you wrote: <> Hi John, Always enjoy your posts. They get me cooking. I am going to take another look at air vented windows. I used them years ago in combination with running the bulding slighty negative in heating climates. Sometimes I used sliding glass door replacement panels (two layers, air fill, double sealed edge) with an air vented single glazing on the exterior. In that way, the edge sealed unit is exposed to less temperature extremes across the panel. I think I may see how they've faired over the years. Other times, I reglazed single pane prime windows with hardcoat low-e and added a storm. I recently modeled a number of configurations for a company that manufactures hardwood 9 over 6 double hung windows with brass fittings and pulley counter weights for the restoration community. They had been producing true divided lite windows with tiny sealed edge units because it was being speced by architects. They were interested in alternatives that would perform as well without using sealed edge units (they wanted to avoid the hassle and material weight of installing sealed edge units in a divided lite window and to avoid the inevitable fog problems of sealed edge units). Hard coat low-e with a storm gave them an overall U-value of 0.39 - substantially better than the sealed edge - divided lite units because of the fantastic edge loss on the little sealed units. I plan to do some modeling of other air vented units to see how good a perfomer we can get. I'd be interested in any ideas the group has on getting high thermal performance out of air vented windows. I'll probably dig out my old "dynamic window" papers that Yuil Gren wrote in the 80's. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 13 12:23:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA11928 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:23:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02095 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA14392; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:11:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA20383 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:07:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA20379 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:07:00 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA15481 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971013120739_1966553156@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: insulated concrete forms Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 257 Hi, Although I've tried lots of new stuff in buildings, I've never used any of the styrene foam concrete forms that stay in place after the concrete is poured and provide an insulated concrete wall. I am interested in the experience people have had with these systems, above and below grade. I'm interested in comparative costs, the important things to do and avoid when using them, moisture dynamics, insect protection and finishing details for interior and exterior. Anything you have to say, I want to hear, and will be grateful. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 13 12:36:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12165 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:36:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA21826 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:42:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA13655; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA19140 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:33:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA19135 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 11:32:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA22068; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:32:54 -0700 Message-ID: <34423EBD.6293F893@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:31:09 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: R-20 windows and other (possible) wastes X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 258 Returning to an old thread I would agree with Chris Mathis that the world could probably survive without an R-20 window. It would probably be useful in the sense that we could forego any considerations of placement and function in a whole house design but then we would be that much further removed from knowing where we fit in the order of things. All of Chris's concerns seem relevant and I would add my own basic concern that advancements in insulative properties would not address the limitations of the basic design i.e.. edge seal and seal failure. Terry just gave some statistics on failure rates from 1995 on 15 year usage. I was in a 25 year old house in the northeast recently that had 8 of 30 units fail. An attached 15 year old sunroom will Pella windows had 3 of 15 units fail. Generally when units begin to fail the owner will opt for either total replacement of the glass in all units (this is what seems the most cost effective approach if there is a fear of all the units failing)or (when looking at the cost and considering the 'age' of the windows) will often replace the entire units. Replacement of glass alone can easily run $10-15,000 which in the worst case scenario is $1000 per year of usage (not a figure you would want to use in calculating energy savings) Another aspect of glass usage is the difficulty of recycling (i.e. separating) glass from sealed units. Aside from the glass units themselves if you look at most of the basic designs for setting and sealing the glass into the units you will find some component that in failing will compromise the life of the glass - most commonly the setting blocks or exterior seal. Ironically the units in which the glass is easiest to replace lack a good exterior seal. My ideal window is one whose real cost justifies its energy savings. A lot of the market usage of technological innovations seems dedicated more to attracting consumers than benefiting the environment. Like Terry said I think I'm going to take another look at air vented designs. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 13 13:10:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA13962 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:10:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA16250 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA19318; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:05:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA22105 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:00:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA22101 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 13:00:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kuts7p10.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA14740; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:03:12 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971013170527.006a5b98@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:05:27 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Air Vented Windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 259 Regarding the 'best' window thread, I am not familiar with air vented windows and would appreciate more information; several of you have said you were going to look into these some more, but please let us know what you have about them at this time. thanks, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 13 16:06:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA15707 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:06:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA15985 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 16:01:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA26865; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:57:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA28579 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:52:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout03.mail.aol.com (emout03.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.94]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA28482; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:49:48 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout03.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA21277; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 15:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971013155113_338817711@emout03.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: GBlist: more on R-20 windows and glazing systems Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 260 For a while there I thought the post on R-20 windows was either (a) offensive, so no one responded, or (b) stupid, so no one responded, or (c) obvious, so no one responded or (d) lost to the computer netherworld, so no one responded..... Glad to see the mummy has arisen.... and to that end, about those IG seal failues.... Does anyone (other than a few of us "glazing" zealots) have the least bit of concern about the SIGMA data showing about 10+ percent IG unit failure after 10 years? Have I missed something? Are there THOUSANDS of companies out there making MILLIONS of dollars replacing these things and they don't want anyone to know the size of the problem? Is this fact reflected in the IG unit warranties? The more data I see on IG performance, the more I am concerned about whole house performance, condensation, comfort, view and a whole RAFT of related issues. ANYBODY got any more data? Is this 10% to 15% a California problem, or nationwide? or worldwide? IF so, has it been correlated to design? Number and type of seal? Spacer type? Location of setting blocks? Thermal phenomenon? Water intrusion in the frame? datadatadatadatadata...... Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 13 21:07:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA21936 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA11150 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:02:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA04282; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:02:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA07517 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:55:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout25.mail.aol.com (emout25.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA07402; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:53:30 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout25.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id UAA27872; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 20:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971013205227_490005311@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: GBlist: window warranties, IG failures and tire tread... Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 261 "Help! I fallen into a performance rut and can't get out!" ....or so it seems as I try to figure out the disconnect between "claimed warranty life" and "real world IG failure data". The tires that I buy claim to be "50,000 mile warranty tires"... and they are pretty d*@# important to my highway safety and fuel economy (window/glass performance).... Now I know the roads in my area (climate) are pretty rough (snow, ice, rain, sun) and the mountains and valleys (peak loads) impact my actual fuel economy (heating and cooling savings/costs) as well as how often I use my brakes (powered) or coast (economizers, venting).... So WHAT THE HECK if so hard about getting a decent warranty on my windows/glass? I'm NOT a "tire expert" but I KNOW what PERFORMANCE to EXPECT. But I have to become an expert at decifering the exclusions, provisions, disclaimers and prorations on window warranties? GIVE ME A BREAK.... End of Rant. Sorry for the "tire-ade." (and the poor pun...) Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 13 23:37:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA01095 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:37:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA22590 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:33:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA06438; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id XAA12617 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:26:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12613 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 23:26:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.142.229.20] (mke-1-4.binc.net [208.142.229.20]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA41102 for ; Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:29:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199710140329.WAA41102@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: window longevity Date: Mon, 13 Oct 97 21:38:10 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 262 A few thoughts on the window thread: I think a high R value window will be well worth the R&D investment. In heating climates the majority of seal failures in IG are directly related to interior condensation. High R value windows will be less likely to condensate in extreme weather. Choose windows that are easily reglazeable. Many good wood sash windows have removeable glazing stops on the inside which can be carefully cut out with a razor knife and re-installed after the glass is replaced. Many less expensive manufacturers require that the whole sash be thrown out and replaced when the glass is broke or the seal has failed. Beef up the manufacturer's glazing job. I routinely "toe bead" around the perimeter of the glass (where it meets the sash) with GE silicone caulk to further protect the butyl glazing material. This is a method and material approved by Pella. Also be sure to properly paint ALL wood- including the edges of the sash- so that the metal channel is not exposed to wick-ed moisture. An ounce of prevention... Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 14 08:26:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06467 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA02698 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA11311; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA20905 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:15:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA20900 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.111] (pm2a20.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.180]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26410; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:18:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:18:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710140329.WAA41102@glacier.binc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Chris & Ruth Koehn From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: window longevity Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 263 A few thoughts on the window durability thread: Terry mentioned the old Andersen windows that had welded-glass-edge insulated glass units (IGUs). I feel that the industry lost a great deal when PPG and LOF abandonded that technology. A few years ago I did some work for a guy who was considering purchasing the last working welded-glass-edge IGU factory--one in Ohio owned by LOF--and that gave me some insight into the advantages of that technology. The basic idea was (is) that instead of relying on organic seals between two layers of glass and the metal spacer, the edges of the glass are "welded" together. This seal is much tighter and less prone to failure--as Terry and others who have worked with 30- or 40-year old Andersen windows with this type of IGU can attest. They are also much better at containing the low-conductivity gas fill. The problem with welded-glass-edge IGUs came about when Andersen decided it wanted to go to a thicker air space to provide improved energy performance. Cardinal did that quite easily with their IGUs and took market share away from PPG and LOF. These two companies invested millions trying to make welded-glass-edge windows work with thicker spacings. At the end, LOF was using their Energy Advantage low-e glass and putting carbon dioxide in the IGUs (which is similar to argon in energy performance but not used with organic seals because it is difficult to contain). The problem was that the thicker the space, the greater the forces on the IGU edges when large differences in temperature occur across the window. Unacceptable edge failures occurred when they went to a 1/2" or 5/8" spacing to match Andersen's requirements. The irony to this long-winded story is that an ideal solution might have been to go back to a 1/4" spacing, which worked very well for decades, and put krypton in the space. With krypton the ideal spacing is much narrower than it is for air or argon, and the energy performance is far better than the other gases used. The person I helped write a business plan for ended up getting cold feet, and as far as I know, the last welded-glass-edge factory was torn down. This was a real loss both for the window industry, which lost a product they had been able to really stand behind, and for the building industry, which lost a product we could depend on. Alex Wilson, Editor & Publisher Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 14 12:04:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA08954 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:04:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA29131 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14601; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:52:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA26545 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:44:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26539 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA27240 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:47:50 -0400 Message-id: <1046253@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 14 Oct 97 11:52:46 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Seeking EEBA roommate To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 264 I will be at the EEBA conference in Denver and am looking for a roommate to share hotel room costs. I'll be there the nights of the 4th through the 8th, as I am there for a pre-conference workshop, and need to stay over Sat. night. May stay in Boulder on Sat. night instead. Please let me know ASAP since the room rate is guaranteed only through the 20th. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 14 12:07:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09003 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:07:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA00086 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:02:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14680; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:54:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA26714 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:49:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26708 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:49:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA27466 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:52:27 -0400 Message-id: <1046291@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 14 Oct 97 11:57:24 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Trip info To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 265 Hello all - Before I left on my trip, I asked for recommendations of places to go see. I got quite a number of responses, thank you all. Several people asked to have a "report" when i got back. I don't have that, but I wrote 5 "travelogues" which I sent to family and friends that include some discussion of "green" projects I visited. You'll need to wade through the other personal stuff, however. Total of 5 docs is about 58K. Let me know if you want this, and I'll send them out. I'd prefer to accumulate a list and then send once in about a week's time. It's OK if no one is interested! Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 14 18:30:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA20211 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:30:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA02018 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA21606; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:20:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id SAA09149 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:13:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA09143 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from epsform.cdsnet.net (d01a80e2.dip.cdsnet.net [208.26.128.226]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA28878 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:16:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710142216.PAA28878@mail.cdsnet.net> X-Sender: epsform@mail.cdsnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: DARRIN THORNTON Subject: Re: GBlist: insulated concrete forms Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 266 Terry, I was very skeptical at first of such a "New Wheel". I have been in concrete construction all my life. We used the old method of plywood forms (9-ply) and diesel for form release agent. Then along came these forms to our area, We have not used the "old" method since. There's probably $30,000 worth of plywood forms now untouched since then. So much less labor, materials. Costs of EPS block above or below grade varies of course with each job. But an average we have seen has been between $8-12.00 per square foot of wall. Complexity of design makes price go up. Square basements run (30'x40') about $8.00 sq.ft. This is block, labor, materials, (concrete,rebar,fasteners,scaffolding,door& window bucks,pumps,bracing etc.) CMU block runs in this area at $6.50 square foot and up. Split face is $7.50 sq.ft. All joints struck. Poured walls vary also. Under 8' high (Plywood size) start around $7.90 sq. ft. Tall walls (over 8') $9.00 sq.ft. If no offsets in wall and four corners. Comparitive costs are similar but the big difference is YOU ARE ALREADY INSULATED. Structural, insulated, poured solid concrete wall in ONE step. Things to avoid: Really wet concrete! pouring must be done around a 4-6" slump maximum. Avoid any petrolium based products, don't apply those kind of water proofing, or for adhesives of drywall, or adhesives of the block. ( we use expanding foam adhesives) Attaching drywall or siding, use screws. Do not have to be self tapping. Our product has steel furring strips to attach to.( every one foot) Important to do's: Brace the forms like it says in the manual, use a foam adhesive(enerfoam), string line the walls for straight BEFORE you pour concrete in them! Never accept concrete that's too wet. Send it back. I have had to only do that twice now in 15 years. So unlikely you'll run into that. Start out on a FLAT AND LEVEL AND SQUARE FOUNDATION, A MUST. If the slab or footings are not right you'll chase the problems to the roof. We use a RUB_R_WALL foundation waterproofer and I think it is the most green of any waterproofing products. We do not have any insect problems (subterrain termites) here in this area. They do make a flashing insert to put in the block above the grade level of back fill. The finish materials typically are : Interior.. drywall screwed to the block, or paneling screwed to the block, or plaster applied to the block. The first two can be put on with adhesives ( i prefer a more positive connection) Exterior...Any exterior product you'd like can be applied.EIFS stucco, traditional stucco, brick, stone, cultures stone, lap siding, panel material, hardi plank, vinyl sidings, etc.... Once completed, the home looks like a regular home. Except for the deep window sills. Hope this info will help you or be of use to you. Darrin >Hi, > >Although I've tried lots of new stuff in buildings, I've never used any of >the styrene foam concrete forms that stay in place after the concrete is >poured and provide an insulated concrete wall. I am interested in the >experience people have had with these systems, above and below grade. I'm >interested in comparative costs, the important things to do and avoid when >using them, moisture dynamics, insect protection and finishing details for >interior and exterior. Anything you have to say, I want to hear, and will be >grateful. - Terry >______________________________________________________________________ Thanks again, Darrin Thornton @ Polysteel Alternative Building Systems, Inc. 664 Hillandale Circle Eagle Point, Oregon 97524 Office 541-830-FORM (3676) Fax 541-830-3611 cell phone email text only 5419443626@mobile.att.net EMAIL: epsform@cdsnet.net www.cdsnet.net/Business/Polysteel That's about all the electronic leashes I want!! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 14 20:14:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA26049 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:14:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA02132 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:09:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA23204; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA11704 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:59:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from smtp.gte.net (smtp.gte.net [207.115.153.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA11691 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:59:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Home.gte.net (tpm000070.gte.net [207.175.0.70]) by smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with ESMTP id TAA14593; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:02:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199710150002.TAA14593@smtp.gte.net> From: "Solargrl" To: Cc: Subject: GBlist: PV in asia? Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 20:02:06 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 267 I'm forwarding this inquiry to my fellow greenbuilders. Anyone have an answer for this gentleman? If so, I'd appreciate it if you could email him directly at aarowe@cyberdream.co.uk. Thanks. ---------- > From: aarowe > To: solargrl@gte.net > Subject: asia? > Date: Tuesday, October 14, 1997 4:42 AM > > hi, do you know where might supply photovoltaic cells in Asia?. A friend > of mine wants to supply light/domestic power to townships in South > Africa, and he thought the cells might be cheaper out there but he is > having trouble finding a supplier. Any ideas? > many thanks for any help(sorry if i'm a bit abrupt) > cheers ewen fortune SolarGirl's GreenPages: http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/7540/index.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 15 08:34:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA07094 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA21171 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:29:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA01513; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:21:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA26149 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:18:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout13.mail.aol.com (emout13.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.39]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA26145 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:18:05 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout13.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA06308 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971015082041_255636327@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: window longevity Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 268 In a message dated 10/14/97 8:20:54 AM, you wrote: <> Hi Alex, First, thanks for the info on the current status of weld-edge glass panels. I also lamented the loss. I betcha Anderson shied away from the refridgerant gas fills at first because of the experience they had in the sixties with some CFC turning blue in the welded-edge units. I think they were trying to get better r-value to compete with the newer sealed edge units. Something went wrong (I don't know what the chemistry was) and some of the units took on a blue tint. I am also in favor of welded edge glasswith Krypton fill. It not only repells wavy arrows, but repells Superman, too. Think I'll crunch some numbers on it. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 15 09:04:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA07330 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA29188 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:59:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA02038; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:53:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA26871 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:51:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout17.mail.aol.com (emout17.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.43]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA26867 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:51:34 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout17.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA15121 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:54:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:54:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971015085255_-1394800263@emout17.mail.aol.com> To: RCMathis1@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: more on R-20 windows and glazing systems Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 269 In a message dated 10/13/97 3:56:30 PM, you wrote: <> Well, yes, I have been concerned not only about the SIGMA data, but about my own data for years. For some reason (no doubt something to do with an old family rule that a few sessions with a bioenergetic therapist and a twelve step program could ferret out), a window edge seal failing after 7 to 10 years, really pisses me off. However, the SIGMA data with the really numerous failures is for C and CB units. If you produce units with this level of seal performance, you can't be a SIGMA member. In order to be a SIGMA member, you must produce units that test to the CBA level, which in the SIGMA studies ahve a 4.8% failure rate after 15 years. The bulk of those failures are in San Francisco (27 out of 36 failures), which apparently harbors a disturbance in the force that results in some kind of edge seal hell-hole. Perhaps Dariush has some insight into the San Francisco failures? Lastly, I am continually surprised and delighted by the ebb and flow of interest on this list. I posted the question of edge seals last spring and the thread was entirely different. I want to keep working on windows (although I perfer Macs) with folks on this list. - terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 15 09:47:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA07683 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:47:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA11301 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:42:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA02615; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:34:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA27900 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:32:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout29.mail.aol.com (emout29.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA27896 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:32:51 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout29.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA17129; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971015092719_322799370@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Air Vented Windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 270 In a message dated 10/13/97 3:33:37 PM, you wrote: <> Saceie, An air vented window is a window with two or more layers that has air between the panes and has some small air leaks at the edges. So for example, a single glazed window with a storm window is an air vented window. Pella makes air vented and sealed edge windows. The air vented Pellas have little holes leading from the air gap between two layers of glass to the outside. There used to be, and may well still be a Canadian window manufacturer who made air vented windows designed to provide make-up air for exhaust only ventilation in heating climates which preheated the incoming air with the energy moving out through the window by conduction and radiation (an elegant idea called the dynamic window by the Canadians and the Solar staircase by Norm Saunders). There a re a few important things about air vented windows. 1) Sometimes they fog up. 2) Sometimes stuff gets between the layers (particles and arthropods mostly) 1) Fogging happens when the dewpoint is reached inside the window. This happens for a few different reasons. First, if warm air enters the gap between the panes moving from the warm air mass towards the cool air mass, the air is cooling as it passes through the window, increasing the likelyhood of condensation. The solutions: plan the air pressure relationship between the inside of your house and the outside so that air moves from the cold air mass towards the warmer air mass, drying out the window interior and air vent the window to the colder side. What this comes down to in practice is: for heating climates - depressurize the house (with all due respect to backdrafting, spillage and other running negative issues) and air vent to the outside (e.g tight prime window, leaky storm) and you won't have chronic condensation between the panes. (You can see that observation of condesation on windows can tell you a lot about whether the prime window or the storm is leaky or tight) for cooling climates - pressurize air conditioned houses and air vent to the inside (e.g. leaky prime, tight storm). Truthfully, I have no field experience with air vented windows in a primarily cooling climate. The buildings I've worked on in the south were mostly single glazed windows, in the Gulf coast, often those louvered jobs, and sometimes sealed edge. Any Gulf coasters care to join in? Another reason that condensation occurs in the gap is if the window and storm are leaky enough for moisture to enter because of air pressure or partial water vapor pressure differences , but tight enough so moisture that migrates in during the day has trouble getting back out at night when the glazing cools off. Then the dewpoint is reached and the window fogs. Pella had a lot of problems with this because the air vent hole size they used says "put larvae and host here" to some of the mud-dauber species of wasp. I found that changing the hole size changes that, and so did Pella. (Wasps have a single gangleon for a brain, so it is kinda hard for them to change their act (course I have a big brain and suffer from the same problem)). You can also just go clean the hole out with a nail when the window fogs. 2) Lastly, dirst, dust and bugs between the panes. Guess the holes are too big. Keep the vents small, or covered with filter fabric, and make it easy to open the gap and clean them is my best advice. The question I'm intersted in now is comparing the life cycle energy and environmental costs of sealed edge windows to those of air vented windows. I do not actually have an idea of whether there is a clear path or not, but the first order stuff is close enough that I want to explore it. Hope this helps. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 15 11:19:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA08849 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA12486 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA04478; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA00585 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:02:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA00581 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA08041; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:02:13 -0700 Message-ID: <3444DA91.AFDFEAAF@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 08:00:33 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Air Vented Windows X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 271 I had this valuable little piece of research by Cameron Duncan filed away for a rainy day, hope he doesn't mind my reposting it here - I had thought of custom manuf. a similar window for our own purposes but felt a little hesitant. I was more interested in single pane interior glazing with passive air flow to the interior i.e. that the windows would not be mechanically vented but that the building itself would be on continuous exhaust. The obvious concern is condensation which could be manually controlled by adding a top exterior vent and making the interior vent closable or I thought it might be possible to minimize condensation problems by creating a proportionally smaller interior bottom vent or scoop to slightly warm incoming air. I had also thought that it would not be difficult to reverse the process for minimizing heat gain by pressurizing the building from an alternate air source. I'm still interested in testing a practical application and was hoping to be able to do something different for our next project. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Willmar Windows: Willmar windows prepared some prototype windows, test marketed them in the Montreal area, and poor sales led to their demise. Solplan Review claimed "...the dynamic window could be important for multifamily ventilation in milder climates...Combining the window with the ventilation systems seems like an idea that should be pursued." (Re: "What Ever Happened To...Dynamic Windows," R. Kadulski, Solplan Review, (No. ) p. 7, April/May 1994.) I just sent them a fax to see what I can find out about their project. Perhaps more on that later. References: Canadian Windows and Doors Assn. (613) 233-6205 Willmar Windows 485 Watt St. Winnipeg, MN R2L 2A5 Phone: (204) 668-8230 Fax: (204) 663-1072 ...... Research: I also found that information describing research conducted in Scandanavian countries (Finland, Norway) an Canada on "Supply-Air windows" (summary of Canadian info. below): "...studies in Finland have shown the possibility of such supply-air windowsÉ providing ventilation air sufficiently preheated to recover most of the heat transfer through the window. A Norwegian study has shown that a double-pane, supply-air window could be built with a U value of 0.5 W/m2.K (R-10)." NRC of CanadaÉs IRC testing: Specs: 6.4mm interpane airspace, airtight, double-glazed window with single-pane glazing 66mm outside other assembly. 3 25mm frame holes (584mm wide section) in bottom of single-pane and top of double-pane assembly (top holes lined with rigid conduit) Fans used to extract air at 11.5 L/s (~0.5 ACH) Results: Window air temp rise ~ 50% of DT (44% nighttime, 58% daytime due to solar heating effect) Ventilation air temp rise ~ 50% to heat it to room temp (contributes to overheating on sunny days) Heat flow of inner panes lost to outside ~ 20% of std. triple-glazed window (most of the heat was recovered through the air flow) Supply-air window U-Value: 0.45 W/m2.K Energy consumption comparison: supply-air window 25% less than double-paned window control 20% est. less than triple-paned window Considerations: Inside pane temp is lowered (thermal comfort & condensation issue) Window must be integrated into the ventilation system Maintenance/cleaning issues (Re: "Thermal Performance of a Supply-Air Window Tested," S. A. Barakat (Instutute of Research in Construction, National Research Council of Canada), Solar Today, (2:1) pp. 10-11, January/February 1988.) ...... Integral Window Ventilating System/Device manufacturers: BTW, does anyone know any Integral Window Ventilating System/Device manufacturers, such as trickle ventilators, other than Titon Inc.? (Titon Inc., P. O. Box 6164, South Bend, IN 466660, (219) 271-9699: Glazed-in, Slot, & Surface Mounted) Cameron Duncan (800) 363-3732 (US) (703) 287-8391 (Intl) cameron.duncan@nciicn.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 15 11:46:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA09154 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:46:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA20845 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:41:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA05037; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA01498 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:29:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout41.mail.aol.com (emout41.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.59]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA01417; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:28:33 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout41.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA23138; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971015111821_-1227167301@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: GBlist: More on IG seal failures... Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 272 I did some snooping and learned a bit about welded glass and IG seal failure history. I must say I don't feel much better about the IG seal failure risk that seems to be out there among the hundreds of IG "fabricators". (Conversely, I am increasingly MORE confident about the checks and balances the big guys have put into their IG unit production.... a confidence that looks to be reflected in their IG warranties.) Welded glass. A Mechanical Solution. A Mechanical Problem. Welded glass edges offered a reliable seal on: 1) small units 2) air spaces around .25 inches. Then we wanted to improve energy efficiency. Low-e coatings (metals) were incompatible with the welding process. Also, the process in its infancy was limited to rectangles. Also couldn't put gas fills in because of process limitations. (Yes, this is the short version.) For small windows the seal lasted a long time. Why? The FORCES were smaller on the MECHANICAL connection. Glass, as a mechanical connection, DOES NOT like to move. But for some reason, people wanted bigger windows..... guess what happens? Wind induced forces, movement of the outboard lite versus the NON-movement of the inboard lite, barometric pressure, etc. all conspired to break A LOT of welded glass. The most telling example of this was the John Hancock Tower in Boston.... raining glass shards.... (we'll talk about THIS horror story in Denver) What about using tempered glass? Didn't work. Couldn't weld it. So, Can't make it big, can't make shapes, can't use low-e coatings, can't gas fill it, can't .... Well, you get the picture... May it rest in peace.... or be the subject for some new innovation that cures all the previous ills.... And about these air vented windows, WAIT before you jump into the pond.... 1) Do I have to give up my low-e coatings? But I LIKE those warmer surface temperatures in the winter and the cooler surfaces in the summer. I like the energy savings in both summer and winter. 2) Do I have to give up gas filling? More comfort and energy savings... 3) What do you mean that bugs and dirt get inside? I like my view and the ABSENCE of interior condensation. 4) Are there really cost tradeoffs and savings? Show me/us the data... If these are the costs of going to air venting, I think I'll stick with the organic seals offered by a reputable manufacturer and replace them in 10, 20 or 30 years.... or whenever they fail. I look at the warranty while I'm sitting next to my warm low-e, gas filled, clear, no interior condensation window in the winter. Or maybe I'll read the warranty while sitting next to my cooler, low-e, gas filled, clear window in the summer..... Chris Mathis MCSquared "In God We Trust. The rest bring data." ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 15 13:09:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA10381 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA17644 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06687; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:51:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA04059 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:49:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA04055 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:49:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kuts9p14.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA00673; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:52:48 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971015165504.006ce6b8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 11:55:04 -0500 To: RCMathis1@aol.com From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist:window warantees Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id NAA10381 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 273 Regarding the very interesting window thread and the admonition to check the warranty, check the warranty--check the--; when you have to do some replacing 10 or 15 years down the road, as has been pointed out to me, be sure to find out exactly what must be replaced when the unit/seal fails--it may be the entire sash. On an entirely different subject, I am about to do a frost protected shallow foundation. These are not allowed where code requirements rule here in Kansas but fortunately there is no rule in the county in which I am building. But I have the NAHB specs for direction. I would like to know what experience there is out there for this relatively new way of handling cold weather problems—I think I’ve read most of the articles on the subject. I plan to double the minimal insulation requirements for my area under the assumption it will more than double my money so to speak. Because I am building on a slope I have to bring in a lot of fill to raise the lower end. For that I am thinking of using a combination of rock topped with sand. Can the latter be used for a heat sink where a heat sink is useful? Have any of you had bad experiences with frost protected shallow foundations? I plan to do a monolithic pour by the way. Thanks in advance, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 15 15:38:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA13637 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:38:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA06208 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA10370; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:20:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA09315 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:17:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA09311 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 15:17:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov (mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.26]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA12627 for ; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:45:35 -0400 Received: by mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCD970.9D3EBBB0@mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov>; Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:45:35 -0400 Message-ID: From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: GBlist: Chlorpyrifos fire Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:45:33 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 274 The following message was posted on another list but I thought it might be of interest of some on this list. The author of it is asking for asking for feedback. Perhaps you can help. >>From: Albert Donnay >>Subject: Chlorpyrifos Fire: Update >>Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:49:38 -0400 >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >>Content-Type: text/plain >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >>The chlorpyrifos fire that burned for 30 hours in Birmingham last Thursday >>(October 2, I had the date wrong in my first post) is now estimated to >>have burned 4,000 gallons of chlorpyrifos in a 40% concentrate (that's >>VERY concentrated; many applications use just 0.5%). It was actually the >>second fire there in the last few years. The earlier fire burned only >>paper, however, and did not reach the pesticide stores. >> >>There was some press coverage in the Birmingham News on Monday quoting me >>and EPA's Dr. Blondell recommending medical monitoring and followup of the >>firefighters. This led the fire chief to call both of us to defend his >>department's conduct during the fire and since, including the decision not >>to test anyone, which he said was supported by both his health department >>and Univ. of AL experts. He also said some firefighters were provided >>with self contained breathing appartus after the fire spread to the >>chlorpyrifos area, but these went only to the minority who were in the "A >>Zone" closest to the chlorpyrifos (the entire warehouse covered several >>blocks) and they are no longer being worn by those involved in the >>cleanup. >> >>Fortunately, Birmingham officials soon changed their minds about the value >>of medical followup, and they now offer both cholinesterase testing and a >>basic symptom questionnaire, but only to those who come forward with >>symptoms and request medical attention. (So far, this has been requested >>by just 2 firefighters and about 15 others.) No data from these tests >>have been released. >> >>Dow officials arrived on the scene for the first time on Oct 9--seven days >>after the fire started--to assist local authorities. The city is now >>deciding what to do about the warehouse's flooded basement. It is filled >>to the brim with an estimated 1/2 million gallons of water and >>chlorpyrifos at an incredible 150,000 ug/L. The city talks of throwing >>activated charcoal into this pool to capture some of the chlorpyrifos and >>then releasing the water to the sanitary sewer... >> >>Anybody have any better ideas? >> >>How many gallons drained into local waterways is not known, but >>chlorpyrifos levels along the 10 mile fish kill range from >>8,500 to 3,500 ug/L. >> >>This is all flowing into a lake that now also shows signs of a massive >>kill. Just for comparison, note the max. allowable limits for >>chlorpyrifos in open waters (adopted by the states of AR, HI, CO, VT and >>OK to protect aquatic life): >> >>0.041 ug/L for chronic exposures (4 day average) and >>0.083 ug/L for acute exposures (1 hour average). >> >>VT is the only state that also has a standard for chlorpyrifos in drinking >>water which, ironically, is much higher -- 21 ug/L. >> >>Meterologists say the fallout from the smoke plume probably concentrated >>about 17 miles to the west of the city, but no soil contamination data >>have been released. >> >> >>-- Albert Donnay, MHS >>Exec. Director, MCS Referral & Resources, Inc. >>508 Westgate Road, Baltimore MD 21229-2343 >>410-362-6400, fax 362-6401, donnaya@rtk.net james3@niehs.nih.gov ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 16 11:13:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA25298 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10421 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26752; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:05:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA05121 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:01:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout25.mail.aol.com (emout25.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA05116 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:01:55 -0400 (EDT) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout25.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA28362; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 11:04:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971016084820_-1763584565@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: pkaluza@juno.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Re: Reply: CO list: Benzene in homes with attached garages Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 275 In a message dated 10/15/97 4:15:27 PM, you wrote: << thus encouraging builders to better seal between the house and garage. The concensus was to include the garage volume in the air leakage test. I think we may want to revisit some of this as these IAQ issues continue to point at the garage.>> Hi, I'd try to do a good job of isolating the house from the garage first and then I'd seal the garage from the outside. If the garage is fairly well sealed, you may need to ventilate it mechanically because there are often fairly strong contaminant sources in the garage. I'd also use a fan door to estimate the leakage between the garage and house and the garage and outside. This can be done fairly simply using series leakage analysis and making an assumption about the flow exponent - described by Blasnik and Fitzgerald in their advanced blower door articles. If you want the equations, give a holler. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 16 12:21:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA26095 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:21:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA01432 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:16:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA28290; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:13:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA07511 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:11:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA07506 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id M]P23825; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:11:51 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Garages Message-ID: <19971016.121237.8039.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-7,9,11-12,14-22 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:11:51 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 276 Hi, I read the recent posting re: garages and it reminded me of a friend of mine who has asked me for help on a problem in her home affecting her health. Her 10-year old home here in S. Florida was built with the air handler in the garage. Since buying the house she has experienced burning eyes and some breathing discomfort. Initially, her car was leaking antifreeze but that situation has been corrected. She is still concerned that fumes from things like paint, garden chemicals and the car exhaust may be being drawn into the a/c system. Any thoughts on this situation and possible solutions would be appreciated. I particularly would like to hear from John Bower. Sincerely, Beverly A. Weiter Environs Interiors Inc. Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 16 12:58:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA26447 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:58:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12253 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:53:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA29297; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA09035 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:48:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail12.digital.com (mail12.digital.com [192.208.46.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA09031 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from us7rmc.bb.dec.com (us7rmc.bb.dec.com [16.53.0.29]) by mail12.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.5/1.0/WV) with SMTP id MAA13067; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:43:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ricks.enet by us7rmc.bb.dec.com (5.65/rmc-17Jan97) id AA08432; Thu, 16 Oct 97 12:38:53 -0400 Message-Id: <9710161638.AA08432@us7rmc.bb.dec.com> Received: from ricks.enet; by us7rmc.enet; Thu, 16 Oct 97 12:43:40 EDT Date: Thu, 16 Oct 97 12:43:40 EDT From: He who toys with the most dies wins To: environs.com@juno.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Apparently-To: greenbuilding@crest.org, environs.com@juno.com Subject: RE: GBlist: Garages Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 277 The magazine, "This Old House" had an article detailing a couple case studies of CO poisoning that were the result of attached garages. I bought it a month or so ago so it probably isn't the current issue. In one case they paid for fixing the problem to see what it would cost, and ended up with an exhaust fan in the garage that cost a lot to install. /carl ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 16 20:16:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA02292 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA24200 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:11:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA07702; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:07:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA22556 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:03:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout15.mail.aol.com (emout15.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA22552 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:03:48 -0400 (EDT) From: RodLambert@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout15.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id UAA11837 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:06:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971016200529_-1260606747@emout15.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Foundations and Frost Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 278 Sacie, re: your frost protected shallow foudation, I built part of my own home in Canada with this technique about 12 years ago on well drained soil with no apparent frost heave problems. In my case I placed extruded foamboard at a 45 degree angle down and away from the slab ( in a trench which was subsequently backfilled). It helps to understand the nature of isotherms in the soil and how this type of insulating litterly bends these lines up to protect the foundation. By placing the insulation at an angle you have less digging and need less insulation to do the equivalent job of a vertical application. (I assume you may already know this but others may want a little more long winded an explanation.) It is of course important to not leave any portion of the concrete exposed to the cold. Hope this helps. Rod Lambert Ecovillage at Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 16 20:39:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA02492 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:39:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA29420 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:34:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA08012; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:28:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id UAA23141 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:25:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA23136 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.67.61 (pm1-29.hoosier.net [206.106.67.61]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA31392 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:28:06 -0500 Message-ID: <3446B08A.9B2@bloomington.in.us> Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 19:25:49 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Discussion Subject: GBlist: garages Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 279 I would guess that the air in any attached garage would communicate with the air in the living space to some extent (unless special measures were taked to isolate the house and garage pressurewise). If there are leaks in the return ducts then there could be a LOT of communication whenever the air handler is running. Therefore, whatever is stored in the garage is also inadvertantly a part of the living space. One study found benzene emissions from gasoline-fueled vehicles parked in residential garages to be two orders of magnitude higher than outdoor levels. Add to that CO, pesticides, and whatever elso is stored in the garage and you could easily have a nasty soup. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 16 23:12:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA03637 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:12:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA02876 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 23:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA10175; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA27136 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:45:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA27132 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ip20.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.39]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA150 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:56:54 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971016225028.007276cc@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 22:50:28 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Garages In-Reply-To: <19971016.121237.8039.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 280 Couldn't resist the famous story on Adolf Hitler's garage. In Albert Speer's memoirs, he (as an architect) went to great lengths to poo-poo fearless leader's bad sense of design. Seems that at the retreat designed by Hitler hisself, the garage was immediately below the living room used for extended meetings. At every meeting, it didn't take long for the attendees to be overwhelmed by the benzene fumes... but they were loathe to complain (for obvious reasons). >From an IAQ standpoint, the integral garage is a bad idea. It's all but impossible to block airflows. Better to build a separate structure with a cute covered walkway. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 00:17:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA04122 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:17:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA17464 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:12:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA11298; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:08:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA28681 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:07:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from geocities.com (mail3.geocities.com [206.111.43.203]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA28677 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:07:00 -0400 (EDT) From: pierremasson@geocities.com Received: from LOCALNAME (ts1b-d157.cht.auracom.com [198.167.17.157]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA23053 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710170410.VAA23053@geocities.com> X-Sender: pierremasson@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Foundations and Frost Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 281 At 20:06 97-10-16 -0400, you wrote: >Sacie, re: your frost protected shallow foudation, I built part of my own >home in Canada with this technique about 12 years ago on well drained soil >with no apparent frost heave problems. In my case I placed extruded foamboard >at a 45 degree angle down and away from the slab ( in a trench which was >subsequently backfilled). I'm new to this mailing list so maybe this reference has been mentionned but it might be useful to other new members : This is a design guide for a frost protected foundation. It is very well written with some fairly good illustrations. http://www.cs.arizona.edu/people/jcropper/desguide.html Bye for now. Pierre. pierremasson@geocities.com Charlottetown, PEI, Canada. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 00:18:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA04133 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA17723 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:13:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA11372; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA28675 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:06:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from geocities.com (mail3.geocities.com [206.111.43.203]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA28671 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:06:56 -0400 (EDT) From: pierremasson@geocities.com Received: from LOCALNAME (ts1b-d157.cht.auracom.com [198.167.17.157]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA23003 for ; Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710170409.VAA23003@geocities.com> X-Sender: pierremasson@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Garages Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 282 At 12:11 97-10-16 EDT, you wrote: >Initially, her car was leaking antifreeze but that situation has been >corrected. She is still concerned that >fumes from things like paint, garden chemicals and the car exhaust may be >being drawn into the a/c system. > >Any thoughts on this situation and possible solutions would be >appreciated. This might "seem" drastic, but she might consider not putting the polluting sources in her garage in the first place (that is, not use them, specially the garden chemicals). Bye for now. Pierre. pierremasson@geocities.com Charlottetown, PEI, Canada. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 01:08:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA04607 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:08:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA28621 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 01:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA12397; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:59:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id AAA29602 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:57:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ove.arup.com (ove.arup.com [193.116.20.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA29598 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 00:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ove.arup.com; id FAA09537; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:59:52 +0100 (BST) Received: from a_csun01(69.69.11.1) by ove.arup.com via smap (3.2) id xma009523; Fri, 17 Oct 97 05:59:24 +0100 Received: from arup.com (a_cnws01) by arupuk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17783; Fri, 17 Oct 97 06:00:25 BST Received: from nwgateways-Message_Server by arup.com with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 05:56:20 +0000 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:57:33 +0000 From: Jason Shepherd To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Garages Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 283 At 12:11 97-10-16 EDT, you wrote: >Initially, her car was leaking antifreeze but that situation has been >corrected. She is still concerned that >fumes from things like paint, garden chemicals and the car exhaust may be >being drawn into the a/c system. > >Any thoughts on this situation and possible solutions would be >appreciated. There are two potential solutions to the problem at hand with your existing system through the use of ventilation: 1) Divert some of the air conditioned air into the garage and install a relief air grille in the wall furtherest away from the living areas through which the air can pass without re-entering the building. I don't know exactly what system you have installed, but in general a healthy A/C system will have an outdoor(fresh) air component equavilant to 10 L/s.person which. By doing the above you can offset this outdoor air quantity and increase the air change rate in your garage. 2) Install suffecint cross ventilation(ie grill openings on either side of the garage open to the outside to the equivilant 5% of the garage floor area.This option may make your garage cold in winter, hot in summer, and as such Option 1 may be more likeable. Anyway, I hope this Helps ? Cheers Jason Shepherd Ove Arup & Partners Sydney, Australia ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 04:58:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA05965 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:58:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA08619 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA14803; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:38:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id EAA02570 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:34:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from cache.lib.itb.ac.id (cache.lib.ITB.ac.id [167.205.20.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA02566; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 04:34:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyberlib.itb.ac.id. (cyberlib.ITB.ac.id [167.205.20.34]) by cache.lib.itb.ac.id (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA24942; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:40:07 +0700 (JAVT) Received: from CYBERLIB/MAILQ by cyberlib.itb.ac.id. (Mercury 1.11); Fri, 17 Oct 97 15:41:51 +0700 Received: from MAILQ by CYBERLIB (Mercury 1.11); Fri, 17 Oct 97 15:41:44 +0700 From: "Wise" Organization: Computer Center ITB To: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:41:36 +07 Subject: GBlist: Newcomer asking for HELP X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.1 (R1a) Message-ID: <4E74D23734@cyberlib.itb.ac.id.> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 284 Hello, there My name is Doni Koerniawan, I am a lecturer, right now Im doing an academic research on energy efficient building with specified topics : Solar Energy and Wind Energy. I want to make contacts with any body who can give me something related to my research. Or perhaps somebody could tell me where can I get the information (mailing address is prefered!) Thank you very much for your concern DONI ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 08:15:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06866 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:15:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA09067 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA16317; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA06416 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:06:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA06412 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:06:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA06361; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:09:22 -0400 Message-id: <1077297@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 17 Oct 97 08:14:22 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Garages To: herector@paltech.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 285 --- You wrote: >From an IAQ standpoint, the integral garage is a bad idea. It's all but impossible to block airflows. Better to build a separate structure with a cute covered walkway. --- end of quoted material --- What are the IAQ implications of a cute vs. a not-cute cover on the walkway? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 09:20:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA07346 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA24003 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:15:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA17052; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA07672 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:10:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07668 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:10:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ip30.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.49]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA74 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:21:43 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971017091520.00730840@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:15:20 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Garages In-Reply-To: <1077297@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 286 At 08:14 AM 10/17/97 EDT, you wrote: >--- You wrote: >From an IAQ standpoint, the integral garage is a bad idea. It's all but >impossible to block airflows. Better to build a separate structure with a >cute covered walkway. >--- end of quoted material --- >What are the IAQ implications of a cute vs. a not-cute cover on the walkway? > The secret is being stealthily green: most people are buying to homes to satisfy urges wholly outside environmental and fucntional roles. Curb appeal, and things like that just need to be worked into the equation. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 10:02:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA08072 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:02:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA05282 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA17734; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:54:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA08651 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:52:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from sparticus.eurekanet.com (sparticus.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA08647 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:52:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (port-01-12.athens.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.112]) by sparticus.eurekanet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA07088; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 10:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199710171432.KAA07088@sparticus.eurekanet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Catherine M. Muller" Organization: National Center for Appropriate Technology To: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:11:07 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Garages Reply-to: cmuller@ncat.org CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, achpa@athens.dis.anl.gov, Helen Perrine In-reply-to: <19971016.121237.8039.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 287 Hi Beverly, As others have stated, having an attached garage, especially one with return ducting running through it, can lead to IAQ problems. Minnegasco did a study of homes where CO detectors kept going off on "false alarms". They found that very often the problem wasn't a bad detector, but an attached garage. Cars were started up in the morning, backed out of the garage and then the garage door was closed. CO migrated into the home and set off the alarm. By the time anyone came to diagnose the problem, the CO concentrations had dissipated and no one could find the source. They have a 120 page report on this study ($20) and a video called "The Garage to House Connection" ($25). You can call them at 612/321-4880. I don't know if they dealt with fixing the problem, or just diagnosing it. As for fixes, first you must diagnose what is the pathway into the house. There are several things that might be contributing to the problem. As Terry Brennan pointed out, one of the keys is the pressure differentials between the house and garage and the garage to outside. If you want to try pressurizing the garage with respect to outdoors using A/C supply air, you need to also make sure that the pressure of the garage with respect to the house is negative, so the garage air doesn't get pushed into the house, too. The problem with this solution is that if the ducts in the garage are leaky, every time the air handler kicks on, the pressures in the garage and the house will be altered. And if the return ductsand plenum are leaky, they are serving as a direct pathway for the garage air to get into the house. If there are leaks in the returns, then this is most likely your primary problem and should be addressed first. I would caution against going out and sealing them yourself, though, without having someone who has been trained in duct diagnostics to help out. Sealing ducts can alter the airflows in the house nd garage - the fix can cause other problems. I would recommend you contact someone in your area who does this professionally. Florida was one of the first areas of the country to have utility-sponsored duct sealing programs, so you should be able to find someone. You can also try writing to the Affordable Comfort Home Performance Association list serve to get a diagnostician/contractor. Their address is ACHPA@athens.dis.anl.gov. Or you can check out their website at home-performance.org. (BTW, if you have questions of this nature in the future, you may also want to address your note to ACHPA. They focus on how homes work, where things go wrong and how to fix them.) An advantage to contacting ACHPA is that you might be more likely to find someone who has been trained in series leakage, too, who might be able to help determine the situation with the air flows in the house and the interactions caused by mechanical ventilation. They may also have CO detection equipment. And finally, you can also try to tighten up the barrier between the house and the garage. One of the most effective ways is to fill the walls with a dense pack of cellulose insulation. It can be installed so tight that it really impedes airflow. And when it is blown in, it goes everywhere, reaching and filling all of the nooks and crannies in the wall. But I would deal with the ducts, first. Hope this helps. CM > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: Garages > From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) > Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 12:11:51 EDT > Hi, > > I read the recent posting re: garages and it reminded me of a friend of > mine who has asked me for help on a problem in her home affecting her > health. Her 10-year old home here in S. Florida was built with the air > handler in the garage. Since buying the house she has experienced > burning eyes and some breathing discomfort. > > Initially, her car was leaking antifreeze but that situation has been > corrected. She is still concerned that > fumes from things like paint, garden chemicals and the car exhaust may be > being drawn into the a/c system. > > Any thoughts on this situation and possible solutions would be > appreciated. > > I particularly would like to hear from John Bower. > > Sincerely, > > Beverly A. Weiter > Environs Interiors Inc. > Boca Raton, FL > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > Catherine M. Muller Project Coordinator, Multi-family Services National Center for Appropriate Technology 16 Spring Street, Glouster, Ohio 45732 cmuller@ncat.org 614/767-9000 (phone); 614/767-9033 (fax) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 11:42:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA09187 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:42:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04131 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:37:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA19130; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:34:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA11641 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:29:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from sweden.it.earthlink.net (sweden-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA11636 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:29:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.244.160] (1Cust32.max3.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.244.160]) by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA29052 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199710171532.IAA29052@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Foundations and Frost Date: Fri, 17 Oct 97 08:31:23 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 288 A printed version of A Guide To Frost Protected Shallow Foundations is available from the Iris Catalog: http://www.oikos.com/irisinfo/catalog/books/frostfoundations.html Bruce >This is a design guide for a >frost protected foundation. It is very well written with some fairly good >illustrations. > >http://www.cs.arizona.edu/people/jcropper/desguide.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 12:32:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09783 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:32:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA20020 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA19794; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA13183 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:21:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from smtp.ucsd.edu (smtp.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA13178 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:21:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [137.110.17.2] (nsterman.extern.ucsd.edu [137.110.17.2]) by smtp.ucsd.edu (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA25381 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:24:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:24:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: nsterman@aqua.ucsd.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: nsterman@ucsd.edu (Nan Sterman) Subject: GBlist: Metal Roofs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 289 Hi Everyone, This is my first request to this list.... We are researching metal roofs for our Southern California, brush-fire prone home and would appreciate any information, suggestions, warnings, experience, URL's, etc. that you might send our way. I understand that metal roofs have been discussed on this list before, but it must have been before I subscribed, as I haven't seen any of those messages. Is there a greenbuilding archive? Thanks for your help! Nan Sterman :=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:= Nan Sterman Minds Over Matter nsterman@ucsd.edu Design For Learning 205 Cole Ranch Road Olivenhain, CA 92024 760 634-2902 760 634-2957 (fax) Please note our new area code. Pac Bell has done it again!!! :=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:=:= ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 13:53:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA10737 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA21213 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:48:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA20769; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:37:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA15313 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:35:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA15306 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.162] (pm2a2.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.162]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA29680 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:38:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:40:59 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Metal Roofs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 290 >Is there a greenbuilding archive? There is indeed! It's at: http://www.crest.org/sustainable/greenbuilding-list-archive/index.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 15:20:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA12671 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA19279 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:15:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA22362; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:11:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id PAA18874 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:09:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA18866 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:09:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id POR00901; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:07:36 EDT To: WISE250@cyberlib.itb.ac.id, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Newcomer asking for HELP Message-ID: <19971017.150754.8223.3.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <4E74D23734@cyberlib.itb.ac.id.> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-10 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 15:07:36 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 291 Hi Doni, One of the best sources is the librarian at the Florida Solar Energy Center. Her name is Myrna Dubroff and you can contact her by writing Florida Solar Energy Center, 1679 Clearlake Road, Cocoa, FL 32922-5703 or call her at 407-638-1000 or fax at 407-638-1010 or e-mail at info@fsec.ucf.edu. Hope this helps Beverly A. Weiter Environs Interiors Inc. Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 17 17:03:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA14634 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:03:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA23629 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:58:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA24619; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:53:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id QAA22054 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:51:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from waltz.llnl.gov (waltz.llnl.gov [128.115.51.144]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA22047 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 16:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by waltz.llnl.gov (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/930416.SGI) id NAA17948; Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:54:45 -0700 From: "J. John Yio" Message-Id: <9710171354.ZM17946@waltz.llnl.gov> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:54:45 -0700 X-Mailer: Z-Mail (3.2.2 10apr95 MediaMail) To: greenbuilding@crest.org, yio@waltz.llnl.gov Subject: GBlist: 'Hard'board siding: green or blue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 292 Gentle People, What's the most important criterion for endorsing any 'green building practice'? Shouldn't it be that it doesn't make people 'blue' (sick) ? (Or, contribute to the malaise otherwise caused?) I am speaking not just for senstive adults like myself, but also for infants, who are generally more vulnerable, but unable to utter the complaint: I am "sick _only_ at home". Along this line, I wish to address hardboard siding and ask a few questions of people who are knowledgable about it, or think it is a viable green building product. Up to now, we have heard mostly about the warping of hardboard sidings. But, warping often occurs in the context of moisture retention during manufacturing/storage/installation or service life; moisture causes mold growth and mildew, in wood with low tannin fibre content. My questions: Is composite wood more likely to absorb moisture than conventional wood boards of the same fibre species? Or, is it so only when not properly installed, painted and caulked? Is it more likely to exude fine wood dust, which can become nutrients for mold growth? What mold species could have existed in the wood chips, and survived the heat treated bonding processing, which the manufacturer told me could but rarely do occur ? Does on-going construction in the development contribute to mold problem in homes downwind. My case in point is: 1. A film of fine black dust is seen to cover the painted surface of hardboard siding, most noticeable on laps high toward the eaves. Pieces torn from a section of garage wall revealed white spots of mold colonies, on felt paper (none visible on the back side of the boards) close to an unpainted seam of lap ends, covered by a trim board with two bead lines of caulk applied on its back. Trace odors of either the dust or the mold can be detected in the house, on humid and hot days. I got sick, in a car while taking some torn pieces to another location for inspection (away from coincidental factors). 2. The house has some moisture and ventilation problems: The under-the-eaves vent holes are mostly missing on the bedrooms side of the 2-story home, and on the clearstory side, the between- joist conduits (laid with batt insulation) have holes facing the attic blocked by blown insulation. There is standing water in the crawlspace in rainy months. (We are beginning to address these problems, now that the causes of my symptoms of esophageal & respirartory irritation are becoming clearer.) If you have any experience or information, of general interest or helpful to this case, I and I am sure others would appreciate it. ---------------- On a lighter side: ---------------------------------- A friend once told me: "Grapes may be three gifts in one -- from God: juice to drink, seed for oil, and skin for tannin. Appreciating this gift, wine makers have worked for centuries to perfect their craft. Where have you been, you wise men (and women) in building tech land ? Thanks for reading/responding to this msg. John Yio ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 18 01:53:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA20156 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 01:53:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA29870 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 01:48:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA01031; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 01:45:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id BAA02377 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 01:43:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from bdg.centrin.net.id (bdg.centrin.net.id [202.146.253.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA02373 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 01:43:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from GateKeeper ([202.146.253.185]) by bdg.centrin.net.id (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with ESMTP id AAG25726 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 12:47:12 +0700 Reply-To: From: "ciero" To: Subject: GBlist: Another help asked.. Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 12:44:16 +0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971018054705.AAG25726@GateKeeper> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 293 Hi there.. I've been joining your forum for about a week, but haven't found any materials I needed yet. I'm a student currently doing an academic research on how to adapt traditional principles to Green Design. I'm looking for internet sources (URL or person's e-mail account) that could help me on my project. or if any of you know any information on this matter, it would be a great help for me Thank You very much. Regards, Bayu. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 18 15:28:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA25759 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:28:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA00799 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 15:23:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA06150; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:28:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA11181 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:25:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA11177 for ; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:25:20 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id O\A05164; Sat, 18 Oct 1997 14:27:39 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 13:35:45 -0500 Subject: GBlist: Not a window post Message-ID: <19971018.133554.3630.3.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <971016084820_-1763584565@emout10.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-4,8-9,15-16,27-28,37-38,44-45,48-49,57-65 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 294 Actually I do mention a window. Once. Just returned from a fantastic mini-vacation to the Big Bend country in South Texas. If you have never been, it is indeed one of the places on this Earth that you should make sure you visit before you die. I recommend visiting in the Autumn or the Spring. Summer is too hot and the winter is pretty harsh with cold winds. Our trip included a stay at the historic Gage Hotel in Marathon, Texas (built in 1927). Marathon was so named because it is a marathon trip just to get there. The Gage hotel is truly unique as a hotel and as a structure. It was built by a rich rancher name Gage (of course) who really knew nothing about hotels. It is unique in that it is the largest building within two hundred miles. The building complex is constructed of native brick with flat roofs. Mr. Gage created a brickyard specifically for the purpose of building his hotel. The architecture attempts to be as classic as possible with the cast iron and white globe exterior light fixtures, cast concrete lions at the front entrance and wide arched doorways. Inside, the reception area features classic wood beamed ceilings, glass paned french doors on the north and south sides to allow for ventilation (pre-air conditioning), steep staircases, rich hand made wood counters, adobe style fireplaces and all the fixtures one would expect to see in the West, Texas and from a ranching community. Upstairs one is reminded of the upstairs design of a western saloon. Down a long hallway of walnut stained doors one can book a room with bath or without. There are also private quarters around the back and side which are quite luxurious. Even the room with a bath (shower) is quite small (about 15X15) with high ceilings. The beds are ranch style bunks which means they are wooden frames with a mattress. Cotton sheets are joined by native wool blankets (pretty but scratchy). The floors are wooden slat with cow hide rugs. The interior walls are plaster and you can still see the swipe marks of the builder's trowel on them. I wondered if the wall was insulated. What you won't find are some of the common amenities that we come to expect from modern hotels. There is no TV, no phone, no thermostat. There is electric lighting and one electric outlet socket in the room and it was four feet off the floor (??). There is now central heat supplied but if you get too hot at night you have to open a window that was clearly hand made and absolutely beautiful craftsmanship. As the Gage was built right across the road from the railroad stop you also get to count the number of Southern Pacific runs that come through the little town of Marathon each night. The next day we drove through the Chihuahua desert to the park. When we got to the park we backpacked in and primitive camped in the Alpine region of the park. We hiked to the top of Emory Peak (7825') to enjoy vistas that included stunning views across volcanic peaks and spires shared between Texas and Mexico. Words cannot do justice, a camera cannot capture nor come close to the natural ability of the human eye. It was an absolute privilege to stand atop that mountain and see God's handiwork all around. The silence was deafening and welcomed. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 19 12:27:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA07884 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:27:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA11216 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:22:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA14795; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id MAA28858 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:16:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout16.mail.aol.com (emout16.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.42]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA28854 for ; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:16:05 -0400 (EDT) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout16.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA01648 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:19:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:19:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971019121627_2023400240@emout16.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Appropriate technology garage ventilation? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 295 Maybe the solution to the garage ventilation problem is to install leaky windows...? (yes, I'm kidding, but I couldn't resist connecting the two discussions.....) Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 20 08:27:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA19746 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:27:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA11135 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:22:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA26819; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA20062 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:15:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA20057 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:15:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (dial-62-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.62]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA23984; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:19:24 -0400 Message-ID: <344B4C23.3B9B@together.net> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 08:18:43 -0400 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ben de Jongh CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: VSK Information Request Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 296 Goedemorgen meneer Jongh: I am interested in attending the VSK conference in Utrecht in Feb 1998. Will you please send information on the VSK conference to me? Danken. Tom Anderson Mechanical Systems Design PO Box 2010-248 South Burlington, Vermont USA hvac@together.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 20 09:53:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (npc.press.org [152.2.254.83]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA20680 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:53:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA08263 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA27672; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:45:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA21875 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:41:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA21871 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:41:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (dial-110-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.110]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA26187 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:45:11 -0400 Message-ID: <344B603E.3701@together.net> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 09:44:30 -0400 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: VSK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 297 Ooops. The VSK Information request was sent to the list by mistake. My regrets. However, since a few may be interested anyway, I'll note the VSK is an Engineering/HVAC conference in the Netherlands. That's about all I know. Contact me if you have further interest. Right now I am looking for energy efficiency/ HVAC Engineering contacts in the Netherlands. Have a trip in coming up there in Nov. 97. My primary interest is to simply chat with Dutch HVAC designers and learn how they do things in ways different than commonly practiced in North America. Any assistance in this area would be appreciated. Tom Anderson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 20 14:52:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA24536 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:52:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18086 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:47:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA03482; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:40:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA01603 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:37:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA01599 for ; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 14:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA120852; Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:32:31 -0600 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:32:30 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: He who toys with the most dies wins Cc: environs.com@juno.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: venting attached Garages In-Reply-To: <9710161638.AA08432@us7rmc.bb.dec.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 298 Further to the messages on the above topic and further to the specific response of below, this is just to say that in our own work including our home in which we were not so stupid to give the car a bedroom (garage), we usually strategically place 2 motorized dampers in a garage and add an exhaust fan to the garage door opener so that for about 3 minutes after the garage door has shut, the 2 dampers open and the fan beside the car's tailpipe runs automatically, then everything closes. The intake damper is on the warmest side (ie. porch) to preheat intake air. ______________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 , environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., 9211 Scurfield Dr. NW, Calgary, AB Canada T3L 1V9 Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, He who toys with the most dies wins wrote: > > The magazine, "This Old House" had an article detailing a couple case > studies of CO poisoning that were the result of attached garages. > > I bought it a month or so ago so it probably isn't the current issue. > In one case they paid for fixing the problem to see what it would cost, > and ended up with an exhaust fan in the garage that cost a lot to install. > > /carl > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 21 08:12:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06593 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:12:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA01613 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:07:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA23986; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:05:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA00688 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:03:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA00684 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:03:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA19905 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:06:14 -0400 Message-id: <1108709@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 21 Oct 97 08:11:12 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Wood preservatives To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 299 A friend is having an electric line replaced across an easement which crosses her property (not her choice!) The utility apparently usually uses poles treated with pentachorophenol (sp?), but also may have the options available of creosote, CCA, ACQ, and ACZA. She's asked me which is the least toxic, especially since one pole is on the edge of a wetland. Without much knowledge, I've guessed ACQ. I thought penta was actually banned in the US, but apparently not. Any wisdom out there on this issue? Are there other even less toxic alternatives which have enough of a track record that th electric company would consider using them? Thanks Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 21 09:24:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA07240 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:24:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA25026 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA25237; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:18:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02081 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:14:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA02074 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:14:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA71872; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:15:54 -0600 Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 07:15:53 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Wood preservatives In-Reply-To: <1108709@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 300 Marc: We are using "Lifetime" treatment on wooden grade beams based on the confidence that Parks Canada has gained with this non-toxic wood finish.If the utility company is in the 1990s, they would be happy to try this method of preserving wood even below grade.It comes as a powder (easy for shipment). Water is added on site. It is a preservative "preventing decay for 50 yeears and more. It will outlast even pressure treated wood." If interested, your friend may wish to call Oke Wictorim of Valhalla Wood Preservative Ltd. at (403) 228-5193. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On 21 Oct 1997, Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > > A friend is having an electric line replaced across an easement which crosses > her property (not her choice!) The utility apparently usually uses poles > treated with pentachorophenol (sp?), but also may have the options available of > creosote, CCA, ACQ, and ACZA. She's asked me which is the least toxic, > especially since one pole is on the edge of a wetland. > > Without much knowledge, I've guessed ACQ. I thought penta was actually banned > in the US, but apparently not. > > Any wisdom out there on this issue? Are there other even less toxic > alternatives which have enough of a track record that th electric company would > consider using them? > > Thanks > Marc Rosenbaum > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 21 09:25:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA07259 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:25:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA25108 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA25305; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:18:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id JAA02167 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:16:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from emout25.mail.aol.com (emout25.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA02163 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:16:45 -0400 (EDT) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout25.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA00866 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 09:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971021074659_1466340164@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Receptacle Gaskets Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 301 Does anyone have a source for calculating energy savings for gaskets for receptacles (electrical outlets)? Any comments on whether these are worthwhile would also be appreciated. Thanks. Ian Shapiro Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 21 11:06:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA08403 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:06:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA07682 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:01:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA26753; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:00:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA05007 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:58:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05002 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:58:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (dial-166-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.166]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA01637; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:01:10 -0400 Message-ID: <344CC3AC.4152@together.net> Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 11:01:00 -0400 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wim De Groote CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: The Watt Stopper References: <1.5.4.32.19971021140332.006870c0@mail.agoranet.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 302 Wim De Groote wrote: > > Since 3 days I am trying to reach this company by email, by their website > and by fax. I probably have a wrong fax number. > Has any one of your American energy freaks the right one ? I need it urgently. > Thank you in advance for your help, > > W. De Groote > Gent, Belgium Watt Stopper, US.... Plano, Texas, try: Ms. Gari Stewart 972-578-1699 ext 106; 800-879-1311; Fax 972-422-1311 or try: Stan Lynch 800-879-8585 Above data from a fresh Watt Stopper catalog. BTW: Watt Stopper is a brand I have had very good experiences with. Tom Anderson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 21 13:31:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA10780 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:31:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA07442 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:26:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA29667; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA10125 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:22:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from brickbat8.mindspring.com (brickbat8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA10121 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frazer (ip172.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.172]) by brickbat8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA07051; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:25:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971021172301.00737c20@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:23:01 -0400 To: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Receptacle Gaskets Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 303 The problem with electrical box gaskets : 1 - a gasket does nothing to seal the device itself. There are holes straight thru a duplex receptacle, a bit less on a switch. Care Covers work better since they slide closed - although to the best of my knowledge there is no similar one for switches. 2 - unless the electrical box is right next to a bed, favorite chair - comfort issues, they really don't do much. One NY-Star house here on LI, wasn't passing the 3 ACH50 test and without telling me the QAP, the builder sent one of his guys out to buy gaskets. When he got back & I found out, I said sure give it a shot. ~48 gaskets later, only a digital gauge would read the reduction - we were trying to get to 3 ACH from 4 or 5 so it gets exponentially more difficult. I usually tell my homeowner clients to do it themselves, it isn't worth paying a contractor. best, -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 21 14:19:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA11450 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:19:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26426 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:14:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA00727; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:12:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA12553 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:10:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from hil-img-3.compuserve.com (hil-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.177.133]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA12548 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:10:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-3.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id OAA18352; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:13:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:13:17 -0400 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: Re: GBlist: Receptacle Gaskets To: Frazer Dougherty , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" Message-ID: <199710211413_MC2-24A1-687E@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by luna.oit.unc.edu id OAA11450 Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 304 Re gaskets, As Frazer implies, it depends on what else the wall cavity is connected to. If the only connection is the outlet, the gasket will work fine. However, given that there is a wire connected to the outlet and this wire leads somewhere, while traveling through holes drilled by a manic with a hole saw, it is unlikely that the gasket will do more than redirect the air infiltration. But hey, you never know. Greg Thomas ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 21 21:21:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA16947 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:21:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA00206 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:16:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA08275; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:14:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA28284 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:12:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA28280 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from together.org (uucp@localhost) by mx01.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id VAA21924; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:15:25 -0400 From: Michael_Shaw@together.org (Michael Shaw) Reply-To: Michael_Shaw@together.org To: mcshea1@gte.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Zero Waste Declarations Date: 22 Oct 1997 02:10:31 GMT Message-Id: <3706122206.44018366@together.org> Organization: TogetherNet Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 305 I believe M & M Mars has a Zero waste goal. We work with them on waste water treatment. The City of Burlington, Vermont has stated zero waste goal. Best Wishes, Michael Shaw (Living Technologies Inc.) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 21 21:21:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA16952 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA00238 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:16:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA08347; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:14:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id VAA28276 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:12:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA28270 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from together.org (uucp@localhost) by mx01.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with UUCP id VAA21921 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 21:15:24 -0400 From: Michael_Shaw@together.org (Michael Shaw) Reply-To: Michael_Shaw@together.org To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Living Machines Date: 22 Oct 1997 02:05:19 GMT Message-Id: <911077374.44000323@together.org> Organization: TogetherNet Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 306 Dear All, I heard that some time ago there was considerable discussion about the application of Living Machione for waste water treatment. I was not a greenbuilding subsciber at that time unfortunately. However I will be glad to answer any questions as I am now on the list. Best Wishes, Michael Shaw (Founder along with John Todd and others and President of Living Technologies Inc of Burlington, Vermont.) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 21 22:32:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA17725 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA17998 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA16716; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:26:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id WAA08034 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:23:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA08021 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA28226 for ; Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:26:29 -0400 Message-id: <1118079@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 21 Oct 97 22:31:19 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Receptacle Gaskets To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 307 --- You wrote: while traveling through holes drilled by a manic with a hole saw --- end of quoted material --- and what does a depressive do with a hole saw (or a whole saw?) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 22 10:45:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA23951 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:45:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from athena.digimark.net (athena.digimark.net [208.202.26.20]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA05251 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:40:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA24739; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:39:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA22803 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:35:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-greenbuilding@crest.org using -f Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA22796 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:35:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.90]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 1.52) id 4167300 ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:51:45 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971022103443.00692900@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:34:43 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Energy & Environment Connections In-Reply-To: <199710220601.CAA13089@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 308 I am presenting a three day workshop for PA Department of Environmental Protection staffers on industrial energy efficiency next week. The first segment is the connection between energy production and consumption and the associated environmental problems. I am looking for any good summaries of the connections, especially related to industrial energy use. I am also looking for methodologies to quantify the connections. I have Bion Howard's paper on Simplified Pollution Avoidance Calculation for Builders from about 1992 and the numbers from the USEPA Green Lights program. Does anyone know of any other sources of information on this subject? Thanks for any help you can provide. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 22 16:47:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA00617 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:47:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA17596 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:41:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05928 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:01:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05922 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:00:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.176] (pm0a12.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.112]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA22678 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:04:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: GBlist: Workshop on green design Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 309 I thought subscribers to the GreenBuilding list might be interested in hearing about a full-day workshop in Miami on November 6th, immediately prior to the AIA/U.S. Green Building Conference. Speakers include Randy Croxton, Bob Berkebile, Clark Bisel (of Flack & Kurtz Consulting Engineers), and myself. It should be a small, highly interactive group, so a great opportunity to spend some quality time with the speakers. For more specifics, we've put up a page on our Web site about it: http://www.ebuild.com/Current/Primer.html. Or you can call AIA with questions at 202/626-7482. Thanks, Alex Wilson, Editor & Publisher Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 22 22:28:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA04629 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:28:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA22580 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 22:22:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16630 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:50:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from isd.canberra.edu.au (isd.canberra.edu.au [137.92.10.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16625 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:50:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from by isd.canberra.edu.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09735; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:53:53 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:53:53 +1000 (EST) From: Helena Dittman To: built-environment@mailbase.ac.uk, greenbuilding@crest.org, drs@mailbase.ac.uk Subject: GBlist: Professor of Architecture - Australia Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 310 University of Canberra Faculty of Environmental Design Dear Colleagues, The Faculty has recently advertised a Chair in Architecture, the position is available on a contract or tenurable basis. I would be grateful if your could bring the position to the notice of potential applicants. _______________________________________ Professor of Architecture $86254 pa Reference No. 97/2067 The Faculty of Environmental Design is a dynamic organisation offering innovative and interdisciplinary approaches to design education, research and scholarship. It consists of four departments, Architecture and Building, Graphic Design, Industrial Design and Landscape Architecture. In addition, the Faculty has two research centres and an international centre, namely, the Cultural Heritage Research Centre, the Centre for Environmental Philosophy, Planning and Design and the Centre for Developing Cities. The Faculty offers undergraduate and postgraduate programs across all of the above disciplines as well as interior design, urban management and an urban design specialisation in the MBA degree. The Professor of Architecture will be based within the Department of Architecture and Building, but will also have a Faculty wide role as well as affiliations with research centres. The appointee will assume a professional and academic leadership role in the Department, be active in the supervision of research and graduate studies programs, and undertake research and consultancy. She/he will also be a member of the Dean's Advisory Committee and contribute to the management of the Faculty in a University and international context. You will require a higher degree or equivalent qualification in architecture and have significant management experience at an executive level in professional practice, education or a professional organisation. Highly developed qualities of initiative, leadership, interpersonal skills and creativity are essential. A knowledge of contemporary theory in an international context is desirable Selection documentation is available by calling 61 6 201 2607 (24 hour answering machine). Applicants must obtain the selection criteria before seeking further information about the duties from Professor Livio Bonollo on 61 6 201 2071. Closing Date: 31 October 1997 Applications: Applicants should address the Selection Criteria, and include the names, addresses and fax numbers of at least 3 referees. Applications should be addressed to: Recruitment Officer 1D107 University of Canberra P O Box 1 BELCONNEN ACT 2616 The University is AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER _______________________________________ Over and out. Nino Nino Bellantonio Head Dept of Architecture and Building Faculty of Environmental Design University of Canberra PO Box 1 Belconnen ACT 2616 Australia Phone +61 6 2012178 Fax +61 6 2015034 Messages +61 6 2383261 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 23 00:03:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA05802 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:03:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA16871 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:58:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA20069 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:40:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from isd.canberra.edu.au (isd.canberra.edu.au [137.92.10.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20060 for ; Wed, 22 Oct 1997 23:40:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from by isd.canberra.edu.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20781; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:43:55 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:43:55 +1000 (EST) From: Helena Dittman To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Professor of Architecture - Australia Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 311 University of Canberra Faculty of Environmental Design Dear Colleagues, The Faculty has recently advertised a Chair in Architecture, the position is available on a contract or tenurable basis. I would be grateful if your could bring the position to the notice of potential applicants. _______________________________________ Professor of Architecture $86254 pa Reference No. 97/2067 The Faculty of Environmental Design is a dynamic organisation offering innovative and interdisciplinary approaches to design education, research and scholarship. It consists of four departments, Architecture and Building, Graphic Design, Industrial Design and Landscape Architecture. In addition, the Faculty has two research centres and an international centre, namely, the Cultural Heritage Research Centre, the Centre for Environmental Philosophy, Planning and Design and the Centre for Developing Cities. The Faculty offers undergraduate and postgraduate programs across all of the above disciplines as well as interior design, urban management and an urban design specialisation in the MBA degree. The Professor of Architecture will be based within the Department of Architecture and Building, but will also have a Faculty wide role as well as affiliations with research centres. The appointee will assume a professional and academic leadership role in the Department, be active in the supervision of research and graduate studies programs, and undertake research and consultancy. She/he will also be a member of the Dean's Advisory Committee and contribute to the management of the Faculty in a University and international context. You will require a higher degree or equivalent qualification in architecture and have significant management experience at an executive level in professional practice, education or a professional organisation. Highly developed qualities of initiative, leadership, interpersonal skills and creativity are essential. A knowledge of contemporary theory in an international context is desirable Selection documentation is available by calling 61 6 201 2607 (24 hour answering machine). Applicants must obtain the selection criteria before seeking further information about the duties from Professor Livio Bonollo on 61 6 201 2071. Closing Date: 31 October 1997 Applications: Applicants should address the Selection Criteria, and include the names, addresses and fax numbers of at least 3 referees. Applications should be addressed to: Recruitment Officer 1D107 University of Canberra P O Box 1 BELCONNEN ACT 2616 The University is AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY EMPLOYER _______________________________________ Over and out. Nino Nino Bellantonio Head Dept of Architecture and Building Faculty of Environmental Design University of Canberra PO Box 1 Belconnen ACT 2616 Australia Phone +61 6 2012178 Fax +61 6 2015034 Messages +61 6 2383261 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 23 01:25:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA06572 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:25:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA08334 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:20:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA21872 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rajah.pworld.net.ph (root@rajah-old.pworld.net.ph [203.176.6.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA21868 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:57:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oliver (ip102.pworld.net.ph [203.176.24.102]) by rajah.pworld.net.ph (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA13087 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:59:27 +0800 Message-ID: <344EDA69.D6CD9511@cryogen.com> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:02:33 +0800 From: Oliver Rempillo X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: More info request X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 312 Hi, I'm Oliver Rempillo an industrial design student. I'm looking for alternative material in making furnitures that is environmentally friendly. Particle boards still uses formanldehyde resins. Are there any other glue that could replace formaldehyde? Is polyurea resin more ecofriendly? And are their plastic boards that would at least match the price of plywood and its workability as material for furniture especially computer workstations? I found a type of particle board here in the Philippines. Instead of it bonded by any resins, it is bonded by concrete. They call it CBB concrete bonded board. Is concrete more eco friendly than those resin or is it more harmful? PS. please include websites, emails, fax # and addresses. Your favorable response would be deeply appreciated. Oliver Rempillo ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 23 04:04:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA08103 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 04:04:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA20740 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 03:59:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA24317 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 03:32:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA24313; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 03:32:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA13662; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 03:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 03:35:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, AESP-Net@aesp.org From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: Need some quick advice Cc: ahardwick.dit@state.va.us, "Johannes, David" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 313 971023 0301edt zzzzzz I was just told Wednesday that our 13 year old oil furnace (forced air) in our restaurant is down for the final count (damaged Heat exchanger). It has always required extensive service & is in my opinion, a hunk of junk. Because of the rather perforated nature of our old log cabin, there is actually a high degree of ventilation for the moment :->, but it must be replaced asap. Our HVAC dealer (primarily Trane oriented, but can do others) is searching for a fast replacement, in LP gas at my request. A long term goal of ours was/is to go with water source (geothermal) HP units. The current GE 5 ton ac unit mated to this 150,000 btu oil Arcoaire is inadequate anyway and requires supplementation with a large window unit, but it shows no sign of impending failure. One of the factors causing the early failure of the furnace in my lay opinion is leakage of condensate from the ac condenser located on top of the furnace, a frequent occurrence when the condensate line became blocked as it often did. The damn failure does not allow much contemplation time. Ductwork will have to be reworkd when we change ac capacity. Lots of screwups prior to our ownership in 1986, grrr. I hope you will share ans to a few ?s. 1-Given that I know the ratings of the units (efficiency) I am looking at, what is the formula or ratio for comparing the energy value of oil vs LP? Fred is already saying that if we use a 90% eff LP unit, we can reduce the required size of the furnace a good deal, to 125K or below. I would like to compare what our costs will be, given current local prices of oil @ 85/gal & LP @ 95/gal. Of course they vary maddeningly during the season. 2-Does anyone have any specific hot recommendations on what they might do under the circumstances to achieve state of the art, now or in the future? If time allows, I want to do the best I can from an energy efficiency & a cost standpoint, so your asap advice will be much appreciated. 2a-What mfr is currently state of the art in gas/LP high efficiency? We do like our high E Trane gas furnace in our house, quiet & reliable for 7 years (even went thru a recall on the heat exchanger sev yrs ago). 3-to keep the water sourcing option open, is there anything to consider/do now? Many thanks for any help you can give. Pls forgive the duplicates if you subscribe to all, as I have crossposted this to eeba/gb/aesp. jh (gb list-recall the lily pad guy?) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 23 10:23:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA10809 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA11090 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:18:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA01794 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:55:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01779 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:54:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Schawe@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA16698 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:57:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:57:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <971023095627_847924364@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Greenbuilding Conference Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 314 Anyone going to the Greenbuilding conference in Austin next weekend? Is it worthwhile? I know it would be fun (it IS in Austin) However, WHY ON EARTH did they schedule it for Halloween weekend? Too many of us have family commitments that weekend-"Sorry kids, Mommy/Daddy won't be here to take you trick-or-treating this year." cheers Phil ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 23 11:30:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA11668 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA09006 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05233 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:56:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dub-img-7.compuserve.com (dub-img-7.compuserve.com [149.174.206.137]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05228; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id KAA15070; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:59:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:28:23 -0400 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: GBlist: Need some quick advice To: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" Message-ID: <199710231028_MC2-24DC-A5B0@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAB05229 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 315 Message text written by "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" > 1-Given that I know the ratings of the units (efficiency) I am looking at, what is the formula or ratio for comparing the energy value of oil vs LP? Fred is already saying that if we use a 90% eff LP unit, we can reduce the required size of the furnace a good deal, to 125K or below. I would like to compare what our costs will be, given current local prices of oil @ 85/gal & LP @ 95/gal. Of course they vary maddeningly during the season.< Oil Propane Cost of fuel per gallon 0.85 0.95 Btus per gallon 138000 92000 Efficiency 0.85 0.9 Cost per million Btus 7.246376812 11.47342995 Oil=$7.25 per million Btus Propane=$11.47 per million Btus 2-Does anyone have any specific hot recommendations on what they might do under the circumstances to achieve state of the art, now or in the future? If time allows, I want to do the best I can from an energy efficiency & a cost standpoint, so your asap advice will be much appreciated. 2a-What mfr is currently state of the art in gas/LP high efficiency? We do like our high E Trane gas furnace in our house, quiet & reliable for 7 years (even went thru a recall on the heat exchanger sev yrs ago). Go with a good oil furnace like a Thermopride. Be very careful about how the A/C drain is plumbed. Reduce your building load. 3-to keep the water sourcing option open, is there anything to consider/do now? Water source as a retrofit is very tricky. The low temperature air coming out of the heat pump may require changes to the building load, the duct system size and register placement. Not simple in a retrofit. < ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 23 12:04:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12477 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:04:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA26425 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:59:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA06403 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:34:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from axil.intranet.ca (axil.intranet.ca [206.51.251.51]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06399 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:34:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.51.250.47] (ppp47.intranet.ca [206.51.250.47]) by axil.intranet.ca (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA22301 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:35:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: larsson@mail.intranet.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:37:57 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nils Larsson Subject: GBlist: GBC '98 technical paper abstract deadline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 316 Dear GBlist readers: Just a reminder that the submission date for GBC '98 technical paper abstracts is November 3. Abstracts should be a maximum of 200 words and the relevant theme area should be indicated (or we will place in most appropriate area). Abstracts can be faxed to the GBC '98 Secretariat at 1 613 996-9909 or e-mailed to me at larsson@greenbuilding.ca. Technical paper submissions will be peer-reviewed. If you don't know what GBC '98 (Green Building Challenge) is all about, herewith a thumbnail description. It is both a two-year process and a conference. The process involves fourteen countries (including U.S.A.) and focuses on the development of a second-generation green building performance assessment system. Each country will test the system on at least two buildings (the U.S. team is doing five), and the idea of the conference (in Vancouver on October 26-18, 1998) is to present and discuss all the results. If you want more info on GBC '98 in general, you can see our international site, the Canadian site and links to the U.S site at http://greenbuilding.ca. Just click on the GBC '98 button! Nils Larsson ************************ Theme areas for technical papers at GBC '98 Theme A: Policy and Broad Issues 1. Who needs performance labelling for buildings? 2. Linking performance assessment techniques to regulatory measures 3. Linking performance assessment techniques to incentive measures 4. Potential application of performance labelling to shift tenant demand 5. Specifying the performance of buildings 6. Relevance of performance labelling approaches in developing countries 7. Regional issues in performance assessment 8. Inter-disciplinary barriers and opportunities in the design team 9. Economic issues: does high performance cost more? Theme B: Performance Assessment 1. What are achievable and optimal levels of building performance? 2. Potential v. actual performance: what is more meaningful? 3. Life-cycle analysis protocols 4. Assessments of materials 5. Simplicity and complexity in the design of performance assessment criteria 6. Standardization of performance assessment criteria 7. Weighting of performance criteria 8. The cost of performance assessments Theme C: Building Design for High Performance 1. Natural conditioning of buildings 2. Integration of building systems 3. Longevity and adaptability 4. Renewable energy technologies 5. Autonomy from services 6. How to influence the future behaviour of operators, tenants and occupants 7. Process factors: teamwork, expertise and support 8. Design tools and supports 9. Extending the application of commissioning to non-specialized buildings 10. Designing for disassembly and resource recovery ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 23 13:38:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA14098 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:38:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA26231 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09659 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:53:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09654 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:53:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.25.64.243] (usr2a28.rut.sover.net [206.25.64.224]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA26826 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:56:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 12:57:25 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: Campus energy audits Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 317 Hi folks, This query came to us at EBN. I'm hoping someone on the list will have a suggestion or two for her. Please respond to her directly (or CC her if you want your response seen on the list), because I don't believe she's a participant. (She may become one once she sees what great info can materialize here, though!) Thanks, Nadav >From: Sue Carpenter >To: "'ebn@ebuild.com'" >Subject: Energy Audits >Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:49:00 -0400 >Encoding: 22 TEXT > >Hello - I picked up one of your newsletters at the Greening of the Campus >Conference at Ball State recently. I work at Michigan State University; a >small group of us are in the process of trying to convince some >Administration folks to okay an energy audit for our campus, and we're >looking for any information or guidance from some informed sources. > >Is there any direction you could give us, as far as getting started? Are >you aware of any cost-factors to performing the review that we would want >to know about beforehand? > >Thanks for any information; if you could email back asap, I would greatly >appreciate it. We are having a meeting Friday afternoon, and I would like >to take as much information as possible with me to share. > >Thanks! > >Sue Carpenter >Turfgrass Information Center >MSU Main Library >toll-free: 800-446-8443 >fax: 517-432-3693 >email: carpen16@pilot.msu.edut ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 23 14:32:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA14927 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:32:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA14849 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:27:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA11741 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:57:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM ([207.49.88.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11737 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM by rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ia017012 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:59:37 -0400 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dan Cautley" Organization: NAHB Research Center, Inc. To: carpen16@pilot.msu.edu Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:01:50 -500 Subject: GBlist: Campus energy audits Reply-to: dcautley@NAHBRC.ORG CC: greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) X-Info: NT Mail Server Message-Id: <20593696804564@NAHBRC.ORG> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 318 Original message: > >Hello - I picked up one of your newsletters at the Greening of the Campus > >Conference at Ball State recently. I work at Michigan State University; a > >small group of us are in the process of trying to convince some > >Administration folks to okay an energy audit for our campus, and we're > >looking for any information or guidance from some informed sources. The Dept of Energy had a program for years (may still be in extistence) called the Institutional Conservation Program (ICP, also informally called Schools and Hospitals program), which provided grants for energy audits and for energy retrofits of institutional buildings. Most states have a body of energy consultants who specialize in this work, driven in part by this program. I suggest looking for these consultants for specific advice on costs, etc. ICP was commonly administered through state energy offices, so you might try them for more information. Dan Cautley dcautley@nahbrc.org Phone 800-638-8556 x706 Fax 301-249-3265 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 23 18:01:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA17970 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:01:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA19178 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA18289 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:22:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netspace.org (unknown@netspace.org [128.148.157.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18282 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:22:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (kurt@localhost) by netspace.org (8.8.7/8.8.2) with SMTP id RAA26920; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:25:22 -0400 Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 17:25:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Kurt Teichert To: Nadav Malin cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, carpen16@pilot.msu.edu Subject: Re: GBlist: Campus energy audits In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 319 Pointers to Campus Energy resources are available at: http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Brown_Is_Green or contact me directly for further information. Regards, Kurt Teichert Environmental Coordinator Brown University 401-863-7837 Kurt_Teichert@Brown.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 23 18:43:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA18453 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:43:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA29056 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA20155 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:16:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20151 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id SQJ06376; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 18:09:36 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:28:18 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: Value of CO2 emsisions? Message-ID: <19971023.141119.19790.1.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199710220601.CAA13089@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 5-10 From: woodeneagle@juno.com (R. Scott Waterman) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 320 What is the dollar value of a ton of CO2? Considering the externalities of combustion products, like diminished air quality, respiratory problems, corrosion, is there any formula that has placed a value on CO2 emissions. We are attempting to factor reductions of CO2 as part of the cost incurred in our building energy efficiency standard. Can anyone point me in a direction? Scott Waterman Weatherization Assistance Program Manager Alaska Housing Finance Corporation Anchorage, Alaska ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 23 22:59:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA21342 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:59:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA02822 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:54:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA26202 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:14:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.gte.net (smtp.gte.net [207.115.153.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA26197 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:14:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (clw002088.gte.net [207.175.2.88]) by smtp.gte.net (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) with SMTP id VAA19810 for ; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 21:17:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <34500566.2A7C@gte.net> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:18:14 -0400 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Value of CO2 emsisions? References: <199710220601.CAA13089@solstice.crest.org> <19971023.141119.19790.1.woodeneagle@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 321 Scott, A few years back Paul Gipe at the American Wind Energy Association in California calculated the externality costs associated with electricity production to get full cost kwh calculations by fuel source. You might want to try him. 805-822-7956 The Rocky Mountain Institute may have also done some calculations similar to Amory's $300 per barrel. They've got a web site at rmi.org If you get any interesting responses, please post them to the net. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 24 03:44:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA24435 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 03:44:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA05407 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 03:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA02012 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 03:23:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.redrose.net (mail.redrose.net [204.249.184.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA02003 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 03:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 30901 invoked by uid 0); 23 Oct 1997 22:03:30 -0000 Received: (qmail 23025 invoked from network); 23 Oct 1997 15:12:19 -0000 Received: from mail.romepc.com (HELO DONALD.romepc.com) (208.217.189.4) by mail.redrose.net with SMTP; 23 Oct 1997 15:12:19 -0000 Received: from [149.174.206.137] by DONALD.aesp.org (NTList 3.02.13) id ja062149; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:57:35 +0100 Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.7) id KAA15070; Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:59:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:28:23 -0400 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: GBlist: Need some quick advice To: "Jim \(James G\) Hardwick CPA" , "\[unknown\]" , "\[unknown\]" , "\[unknown\]" , "\[unknown\]" Message-ID: <199710231028_MC2-24DC-A5B0@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline X-ListMember: sailspry@redrose.net [AESP-Net@aesp.org] Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id DAA02004 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 322 Message text written by "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" > 1-Given that I know the ratings of the units (efficiency) I am looking at, what is the formula or ratio for comparing the energy value of oil vs LP? Fred is already saying that if we use a 90% eff LP unit, we can reduce the required size of the furnace a good deal, to 125K or below. I would like to compare what our costs will be, given current local prices of oil @ 85/gal & LP @ 95/gal. Of course they vary maddeningly during the season.< Oil Propane Cost of fuel per gallon 0.85 0.95 Btus per gallon 138000 92000 Efficiency 0.85 0.9 Cost per million Btus 7.246376812 11.47342995 Oil=$7.25 per million Btus Propane=$11.47 per million Btus 2-Does anyone have any specific hot recommendations on what they might do under the circumstances to achieve state of the art, now or in the future? If time allows, I want to do the best I can from an energy efficiency & a cost standpoint, so your asap advice will be much appreciated. 2a-What mfr is currently state of the art in gas/LP high efficiency? We do like our high E Trane gas furnace in our house, quiet & reliable for 7 years (even went thru a recall on the heat exchanger sev yrs ago). Go with a good oil furnace like a Thermopride. Be very careful about how the A/C drain is plumbed. Reduce your building load. 3-to keep the water sourcing option open, is there anything to consider/do now? Water source as a retrofit is very tricky. The low temperature air coming out of the heat pump may require changes to the building load, the duct system size and register placement. Not simple in a retrofit. < ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 24 09:25:25 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA27390 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:25:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA21222 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA06976 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06972 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:53:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.16]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 1.52) id 3326300 ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:11:32 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971024085346.00693708@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 08:53:46 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Dollar Value of CO2 In-Reply-To: <199710240601.CAA00619@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 323 The question was rasised: >What is the dollar value of a ton of CO2? Considering the externalities >of combustion products, like diminished air quality, respiratory >problems, corrosion, is there any formula that has placed a value on CO2 >emissions. We are attempting to factor reductions of CO2 as part of the >cost incurred in our building energy efficiency standard. Can anyone >point me in a direction? > Bion Howard wrote a paper a few years back entitled "Simplified Pollution Avoidance Calculation for Builders". An article was published in the Northeast Sun (publication of the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association) in the spring of 1993. He placed the dollar value of the societial costs at 4.8 cents per pound ($96/ton). You might also want to convert CO2 numbers to something more meaningful like cars taken off the road or acres of trees planted (easier for many people to visualize). The EPA Green Lights program has generated figures for these items (Cars - #ofCO2/10590=cars taken off the road; Trees - #ofCO2/5175=acres of trees). I am still looking for more information on quantifying the environmental impacts of energy consumption. Does any one know of other references beside the two mentioned above? ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 24 09:43:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA27586 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:43:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA25480 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:38:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07383 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07379 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:09:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.16]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 1.52) id 3338000 ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:27:16 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971024090928.00695c04@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:09:28 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: ICP Energy Audit Costs Cc: carpen16@pilot.msu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 324 Question Raised: >Hello - I picked up one of your newsletters at the Greening of the Campus >Conference at Ball State recently. I work at Michigan State University; a >small group of us are in the process of trying to convince some >Administration folks to okay an energy audit for our campus, and we're >looking for any information or guidance from some informed sources. > >Is there any direction you could give us, as far as getting started? Are >you aware of any cost-factors to performing the review that we would want >to know about beforehand? > First Response: The Dept of Energy had a program for years (may still be in extistence) called the Institutional Conservation Program (ICP, also informally called Schools and Hospitals program), which provided grants for energy audits and for energy retrofits of institutional buildings. Most states have a body of energy consultants who specialize in this work, driven in part by this program. I suggest looking for these consultants for specific advice on costs, etc. ICP was commonly administered through state energy offices, so you might try them for more information. I formerly worked with the PEnnsylvania Energy Office (PEO). The ICP Program was broken down into Technical Assistance (TA) and Energy Conservation Measure (ECM) grants. They were 50% matching grants. On the TA side the PEO would pay a maximum of $0.06 per square foot for an energy audit. If the school paid 50% then the audit would cost $0.12 per square foot. Some audits cost a little more, some a little less. Typical range was between $0.10 and $0.15 per square foot. Costs may have increased a little as these figures are from about 1993. Maximum cost should not exceed $0.20 per square foot. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 24 14:15:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA01047 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA24556 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:09:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA15936 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:37:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15932 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:37:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kuts6p06.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA06473; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:40:51 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971024174301.006a14fc@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:43:01 -0500 To: Marcus Sheffer From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Dollar Value of CO2 Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 325 > >>What is the dollar value of a ton of CO2? Considering the externalities >>of combustion products, like diminished air quality, respiratory >>problems, corrosion, is there any formula that has placed a value on CO2 >>emissions. We are attempting to factor reductions of CO2 as part of the >>cost incurred in our building energy efficiency standard. Can anyone >>point me in a direction? >> >Bion Howard wrote a paper a few years back entitled "Simplified Pollution >Avoidance Calculation for Builders". An article was published in the >Northeast Sun (publication of the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association) >in the spring of 1993. He placed the dollar value of the societial costs >at 4.8 cents per pound ($96/ton). You might also want to convert CO2 >numbers to something more meaningful like cars taken off the road or acres >of trees planted (easier for many people to visualize). The EPA Green >Lights program has generated figures for these items (Cars - >#ofCO2/10590=cars taken off the road; Trees - #ofCO2/5175=acres of trees). > >I am still looking for more information on quantifying the environmental >impacts of energy consumption. Does any one know of other references >beside the two mentioned above? Marcus, I would be interested in the replies you receive in answer to the above, in case they aren't broad-listed. I am thinking of launching a green building awareness campaign with the Architecture school here and need some more fodder (apparently they lost interest a few years ago so that now there are no courses offered on this important subject. Certainly it is true that most architects out there don't know much about energy efficient building) . I'm going to start with windows and work in from there. The new Carmody book on windows has some good information that relates use to environment cost. Of course EBN has lots of statistics too. I would like to see references to the cost of adding energy efficient features to new houses as well as those that talk about the environmental impact of not doing this, with real-life verifiable references (and few scientifically derived numbers that mean little to most folks). Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 24 21:05:54 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA06528 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:05:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA23703 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 21:00:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA28239; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:51:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA27955 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:51:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.waonline.com (root@ns.waonline.com [208.192.52.129]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA27946 for ; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:51:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from waonline.com (1Cust112.max5.new-york.ny.ms.uu.net [153.35.2.112]) by ns.waonline.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA26910; Fri, 24 Oct 1997 17:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <345141A7.CE87DD93@waonline.com> Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 20:47:35 -0400 From: "Warren C. Liebold" Reply-To: wliebold@waonline.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "R. Scott Waterman" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Value of CO2 emsisions? References: <199710220601.CAA13089@solstice.crest.org> <19971023.141119.19790.1.woodeneagle@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 326 "Environmental Costs of Electricity" (1990) edited by the Pace University Center for Environmental Legal Studies, Oceana Publications...has about 50 pages on the subject. There's an increasing amount written on environmental externalities worth reading. Warren Liebold wliebold@waonline.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 25 02:07:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA08537 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 02:07:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA10162 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 02:02:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA03841; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:59:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:53:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA03510 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:53:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA03506; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA29132; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:56:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 01:56:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, AESP-Net@aesp.org From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: Need some quick advice Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 327 971025 0146edt zzz Re my request for help on quickly & intelligently replacing our ailing & old oil furnace at our restaurant here-- These lists do their job well. I have recd some thoughtful and well considered advice, surprisingly much of it in agreement. I have resolved to eval repairs to the system to buy time to make a more careful & well-planned redo. Of course if the heat xchanger is beyond help & dangerous as my 1st tech says, then I may be back on the fast track. !! I need more time to check out the references you were all kind enough to send. All who took the time to write to me are most unselfish with their time & I sincerely appreciate that. Thanking each person individually has taken longer than I thought, so pls know that I thank you for your help, in the meantime. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 25 11:14:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA11261 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA05662 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10774; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:06:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:02:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10411 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:01:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.1.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10407; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:01:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [199.174.228.18] (hd48-018.hil.compuserve.com [199.174.228.18]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA26028; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:05:01 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:05:01 -0700 Message-Id: <199710251505.IAA26028@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: hydronic heating (routed inquiry) To: ee-building@crest.org Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, kschwan@bright.net X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 328 Anybody out there with some feedback on the following question? Routed by: Bion Howard (non-member submission on EEBA-L) !!! Respond to: Ken Schwan ------------------------------------------------------- <---- Begin Forwarded Message ----> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:19:02 -0400 From: Ken Schwan Reply-To: kschwan@bright.net To: owner-ee-building@crest.org Subject: hydronic heating Hi, I'm in the USA. I'm building a new house in the spring. It is planned for all electric, but I plan to incorporate PEX tubing into the basement & garage flooring when I build. I have plenty of wood to burn. I'm planning to add a efficent wood-fired boiler & heat the basement floor as well as capture the radiant heat from the stove for the house. Eventually, I plan to add radiators in different areas in the house & possibly add to this system with solar heat. Wood, grain, whatever is renewable & stoves are much less polluting now here due to EPA regulations. The cat's pajamas I think will be solar heat in the future. KEN <---- End Forwarded Message ----> ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 25 12:05:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA11602 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25202 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:00:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12146; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:57:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:52:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA11756 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:52:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.2.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11740; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:52:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [199.174.228.18] (hd48-018.hil.compuserve.com [199.174.228.18]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA16861; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:55:46 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:55:46 -0700 Message-Id: <199710251555.IAA16861@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: Taking Credit for Green Buildings To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 329 Subject: Thread on pollution emissions and green builders getting to take some credit for reductions in pollution A good set of references on this topic is contained in the report "Better Building Codes for Energy Efficiency" by the Alliance to Save Energy. (1991) This report also spawned ASHRAE Thermal Envelopes Conference paper (peer reviewed) and another paper in DSM for the Global Environment (Synergic Resources). Later the approach was revised into a worksheet for builders who have data on how much more energy efficient their homes are than "code built". By entering the fuel savings calculated from appropriate methods (by others) the user can return results: pounds of emissions avoided, and a crude estimate of the societal value of the avoided emissions. The later estimate is crude because the playing field of emissions regulations is changing (Clean Air Act Ammendments...) and includes calculations related to particulate emissions currently a hot (so to speak) topic. Also in the Alliance/CREST consumer program "Home Energy Checkup" that was rolled out at the Alliance dinner June 1997, a very similar approach is used to link pollution avoidance (CO2) with energy efficiency decisions in upgrading existing homes. Since this work is again generating interest, I have decided to post a protected MS Excel worksheet on my web site, which should be available to obtain on-line by COB Monday 10/27. If it is useful, and you would like to be able to edit the file, please follow the instructions that are contained in the ZIP file on our web site that bears the worksheet. http://www.nrg-builder.com (follow links to "FTP-resources" page) The paper is available from EEBA in the 1993 Conference proceedings. Note: ------------------------------------------------------------------- All files on nrg-builder.com are checked with McAfee VirusScan using the latest available Virus dat-files. Howard Associates disclaims all liability for the accuracy or fitness of use and results generated by the data and worksheets described in this posting. They are provided soley for the purpose of sharing information and opinion on the list topic. ---------------< Contact Information >----------------- Mr. Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, Maryland 20773 USA bdhoward@ix.netcom.com <--> http://www.nrg-builder.com Voice# 410-867-8000 fax# 301-889-0889 ------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 25 12:30:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12132 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:30:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA04420 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13097; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:21:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:17:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12817 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:17:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12813 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 12:17:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.142.229.19] (mke-1-3.binc.net [208.142.229.19]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA52856 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:20:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199710251620.LAA52856@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: venting attached Garages Date: Sat, 25 Oct 97 10:30:09 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 330 An extreme example of why venting garages is a good idea: My colleague and fellow timber framer Wayne Kondor of Kondor Post & Beam in Maine experienced a power outage last winter during a blizzard. He went to his attached garage where he manually opened the overhead door and proceeded to start his backup generator located in the garage, to power the furnace and fridge, etc. Middle of the night the power came back on and the garage door dutifully came down. Wayne woke up, stumbled to the garage, opened the door and passed out. He died a little while later. His neighbor was alerted to the situation, and dragged Wayne's wife and two young doughters from the house. They recovered. A hard lesson learned, and a sad one. Please be careful with attached garages. Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 25 19:41:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA17073 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA05081 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:36:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA21666; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:28:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA21362 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:28:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA21349; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:28:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA19745; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:24:09 -0700 Message-ID: <34528024.99645C90@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 16:26:28 -0700 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , EE-Building Subject: GBlist: Wraps X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 331 Is anyone aware of any recent reports or studies questioning breathability or performance of glass building wraps eg. Typar Thanks in advance John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 25 20:38:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA18572 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:38:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA16859 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23078; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:29:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:25:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA22833 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:25:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA22828 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:25:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA23359 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 20:28:40 -0400 Message-id: <1155354@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 25 Oct 97 20:33:46 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Wraps To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 332 Hello John - Joe Lstiburek, famed Canadian building scientist, has been seeing Tyvek failures wherein the Tyvek allows liquid water from the exterior in. He says this is because of surfactants in some siding materials, such as cedar and redwood. In early August I viewed a relatively new home with Joe in which there were serious paint failures, and the siding had been stripped, and it looked pretty clear that the Tyvek had allowed water in. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 25 21:24:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA19197 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA29015 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:19:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24327; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:15:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:11:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA23701 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:11:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA23697; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from port-sac44.cwo.com (port-sac44.cwo.com [207.173.173.159]) by mail.cwo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA23869; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:15:39 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:15:39 -0700 Message-Id: <199710260115.SAA23869@mail.cwo.com> X-Sender: nistone@mail.cwo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding-digest@crest.org From: nehemiah i stone Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #417 Cc: carpen16@pilot.msu.edu Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 333 ORIGINAL MESSAGE: >>Hello - I picked up one of your newsletters at the Greening of the Campus >>Conference at Ball State recently. I work at Michigan State University; a >>small group of us are in the process of trying to convince some >>Administration folks to okay an energy audit for our campus, and we're >>looking for any information or guidance from some informed sources. >> >>Is there any direction you could give us, as far as getting started? Are >>you aware of any cost-factors to performing the review that we would want >>to know about beforehand? >> >>Thanks for any information; if you could email back asap, I would greatly >>appreciate it. We are having a meeting Friday afternoon, and I would like >>to take as much information as possible with me to share. >> >>Thanks! >> >>Sue Carpenter >>Turfgrass Information Center >>MSU Main Library >>toll-free: 800-446-8443 >>fax: 517-432-3693 >>email: carpen16@pilot.msu.edut > RESPONSE: Call Daryl Mills of the California Energy Commission at (916)654-5070. The group he heads at the Commission arranges for such audits on a regular basis. He should have some valuable information for you on how to proceed, what to expect and how much to expect it will cost. One of our criteria is that the costs of the energy efficiency upgrades can be recouped within 6.5 years using the energy savings. California helps out the schools and local governments with the cost of the initial audit and with identifying contractors for performing the audit and the work. Good Luck! Nehemiah Stone California Energy Commission ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 25 21:24:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA19198 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:24:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA29016 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:19:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24343; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:16:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:11:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA23715 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:11:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA23711; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:11:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from port-sac44.cwo.com (port-sac44.cwo.com [207.173.173.159]) by mail.cwo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA23873; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:15:49 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:15:49 -0700 Message-Id: <199710260115.SAA23873@mail.cwo.com> X-Sender: nistone@mail.cwo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding-digest@crest.org From: nehemiah i stone Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #417 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 334 On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, woodeneagle@juno.com (R. Scott Waterman) asked: What is the Value of CO2 emsisions? > >What is the dollar value of a ton of CO2? Considering the externalities >of combustion products, like diminished air quality, respiratory >problems, corrosion, is there any formula that has placed a value on CO2 >emissions. We are attempting to factor reductions of CO2 as part of the >cost incurred in our building energy efficiency standard. Can anyone >point me in a direction? > >Scott Waterman >Weatherization Assistance Program Manager >Alaska Housing Finance Corporation >Anchorage, Alaska >__ The value will vary depending upon geographical location, population and sources involved; at least some of it will. There are also global costs. I recommend three sources for information: (1) South Coast Air Quality Management District, located in Los Angeles. They did groundbreaking work on the value of pollutants before establishing their in-basin requirements. (2) Mark Levine of Lawrence Berkeley National Lab. He directed a group that investigated greenhouse gases for a UN sponsored report and has been a presenter on the topic at many forums, including the last ACEEE conference. (3) Marwan Masri of the California Energy Commission's Technology Development Division. He is the project manager for the Commission's Global Warming Report which is currently be updated. He should be a wealth of info on the subject. His number is (916)654-4531. Nehemiah Stone California Energy Commission ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 25 21:24:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA19206 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:24:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA29077 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24370; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:16:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:12:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA23744 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:11:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA23740; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 21:11:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from port-sac44.cwo.com (port-sac44.cwo.com [207.173.173.159]) by mail.cwo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA23876; Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:15:58 -0700 Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:15:58 -0700 Message-Id: <199710260115.SAA23876@mail.cwo.com> X-Sender: nistone@mail.cwo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding-digest@crest.org From: nehemiah i stone Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #417 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 335 ORIGINAL MESSAGE: >Marcus, I would be interested in the replies you receive in answer to the >above, in case they aren't broad-listed. I am thinking of launching a green >building awareness campaign with the Architecture school here and need some >more fodder (apparently they lost interest a few years ago so that now there >are no courses offered on this important subject. Certainly it is true that >most architects out there don't know much about energy efficient building) . >I'm going to start with windows and work in from there. The new Carmody >book on windows has some good information that relates use to environment >cost. Of course EBN has lots of statistics too. > I would like to see references to the cost of adding energy efficient >features to new houses as well as those that talk about the environmental >impact of not doing this, with real-life verifiable references (and few >scientifically derived numbers that mean little to most folks). > Sacie Lambertson RESPONSE: The Carmody, Selkowitz, Heschong book IS excellent, but have a little caution on how you use it. The one area where it needs some 'caveat emptor' warnings is exactly the application you cited. The estimations the book shows you how to make, energy use and costs, are based on a set of algorithms developed within the NFRC (National Fenestration Rating Council) and are still very controversial within that organization. The goal of developing the algorithms was to give average consumers good, USABLE advice on how to choose windows. It does a fairly good job of accomplishing that by providing a viable RELATIVE comparison tool; it gives you good comparisons of two products' performance regardless of where you are. However, to meet that goal, the process had to be so simplified as to make the energy numbers that one might get very imprecise. I caution you against using the book's methodology for trying to determine actual impacts. Such calculations require that many of the parameters that HAD to be assumed constant for a NATIONAL rating tool, can actually be defined for the specific case. Nehemiah Stone California Energy Commission (and Board member of NFRC) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 26 05:42:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA22470 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 05:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA02185 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 05:37:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA01989; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:34:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:29:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA01604 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:29:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout12.mail.aol.com (emout12.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.38]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA01599; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:29:19 -0500 (EST) From: Strawnet@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id EAA22530; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:32:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:32:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971026043205_-258096145@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: "Sustainable Building Envelope Materials" Symposium Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 336 This is a symposium that might be of interest to some people on this list. Sorry for using up space for those who are not interested. David Eisenberg DCAT "Sustainable Building Envelope Materials" BETEC Symposium -- Emerging Technology Series Learn of new developments in emerging sustainable building envelope materials. Presenters will address performance characteristics and properties of sustainable materials and emerging technologies ranging from soil and straw bales to lightweight brick and structural insulated panels. Installation techniques, economic analysis, code enforcement, and other subjects leading to environmentally sound and affordable building walls and roofs will be presented. The symposium will be of interest to insulation manufacturers and contractors, academia, volunteers, non-profits, public and private organizations, national and international entities, and manufacturers of advanced construction materials. Educational, technical and trade organizations, geological organizations (for mineral insulating materials), agricultural organizations (for agricultural waste straw), sustainable advocacy organizations, and researchers will find opportunities to network. Symposium Proceedings will be published in January, 1998 BETEC Fall Symposium WHEN: Wednesday, November 19, 1997 WHERE: Washington Plaza Hotel, 10 Thomas Circle, NW, Washington, DC Presented by: The Building Environmental and Thermal Envelope Council Co-sponsored by: U.S. Department of Energy - Oak Ridge National Laboratory - National Association of Home Builders - National Institute of Buildings Sciences ************************************************** "Sustainable Building Envelope Materials" A BETEC Symposium -- Emerging Technology Series 8:00 a.m. Registration and Continental Breakfast Buffet 8:30 a.m. INTRODUCTORY SESSION Welcome: Jack Warner, BETEC Chairman Keynote: Joseph J. Romm, Acting Assistant Secretary, Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, U.S. Department of Energy Moderator: Arun Vohra, U.S. Department of Energy 9:00 a.m. TECHNICAL SESSION Insulation Materials and the Environment: an Overview An environmental comparison of insulation materials. Progress made in improving environmental performance by insulation industries will be discussed. Practical installation strategies for reducing environmental and health effects of insulation materials will be offered. ALEX WILSON, Environmental Building News Sustainability and the Building Codes The impact of the building codes on resources, the environment and the ecosystems that sustain us. DAVID EISENBERG, Development Center for Appropriate Technology Self-Supporting Wall Insulation Retrofit - A New Technology from DOE Construction and performance simulation of wall retrofit using bagged pumice. ARUN VOHRA, Buildings Materials and Structures Manager, DOE, and MICHAEL McDIARMID, State of New Mexico (via teleconference) 10:20 a.m. COFFEE 10:30 a.m. SESSION RESUMES Sustainable Non-Conventional Insulation Materials R values of moist and dry pumice, pumice concrete bricks, and waste materials from power plants, straw; effects of natural convection currents on insulation performance. THERESE K. STOVALL, Oak Ridge National Laboratory Sustainable Building Envelopes Sustainable Walls Whole wall performance of straw bale, bagged pumice, energy efficient steel stud, structural straw insulated panel, autoclaved cellular concrete. Sustainable roofs: Self drying, highly reflective 30 year life/R=30 low slope roofs. JEFFREY E. CHRISTIAN, Oak Ridge National Laboratory The European Experience with Sustainable Envelope Materials Properties of soil materials, aerated concrete and light weight bricks. HUGO HENS, University of Leuven, Belgium (via teleconference) 12 Noon LUNCH 1:00 p.m. TECHNICAL SESSION Specifications For a Green Building in Berlin, Germany A new tool is now available on the Internet to identify environmentally preferable products. A case study presentation of the Green Specifications project for the US State Department includes many building envelope materials. SANDRA LEIBOWITZ, Hellmuth, Obata & Kassabaum Sustainable Roof Activities at the National Roofing Contractors Association Research on the durability of membrane roof systems. THOMAS LEE SMITH, National Roofing Contractors Association Thermal Performance of Structural Insulated Panels in a Manufactured Building Side by side thermal testing of two identical manufactured buildings in an environmental chamber, and outdoors. One building is constructed of structural insulated panels, the other building is of 2 x 4 frame construction with fiber glass batts. RONALD JUDKOFF, National Renewable Energy Laboratory 2:30 p.m. COFFEE 2:45 p.m. SESSION RESUMES Synthetic Vitreous Fiber Insulation: Combating Climate Change and Supporting Sustainability Life cycle cost analysis shows the environmental benefits of fiber glass and slag wool insulation. ANGUS CRANE, North American Insulation Manufacturers Association Cellulose Insulation, Sustainability and Latest Developments Latest installation techniques, code requirements, low added moisture wall cavity cellulose spray products, trends and issues. DAN LEA, Cellulose Insulation Manufacturers Association Sustainable Building Materials New and improved materials and methods for environmentally sound and affordable building shells. PLINY FISK, Center for Maximum Potential Building Systems Speakers Forum All presenters will participate in an open Q&A Forum 5:00 p.m. RECEPTION and View of Tabletop Exhibits ********************************************************* Symposium Proceedings will be published in January, 1998 Registrations or Questions: 202-289-7800; e-mail: pcichowski@nibs.org BETEC Symposium, 1090 Vermont Avenue, NW, Suite 700, Washington, DC 20005 (our NEW mailing address) FAX: 202-289-1092 or Telephone ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 26 11:00:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA25001 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 11:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA25205 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 10:55:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06655; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 10:52:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 26 Oct 1997 10:47:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06356 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 10:47:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06352 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 10:47:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA26023; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:43:42 -0800 Message-ID: <345365AE.D401CCA4@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 07:45:50 -0800 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Wraps X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <1155354@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 337 Hi Marc Welcome back! Thanks for the information about Tyvek and I'm assuming the same will be true for all the polyolefin sheets (is anyone aware of any published material on this) which leaves the problem of effective building wraps (non asphalt). John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > > Hello John - > > Joe Lstiburek, famed Canadian building scientist, has been seeing > Tyvek > failures wherein the Tyvek allows liquid water from the exterior in. > He says > this is because of surfactants in some siding materials, such as cedar > and > redwood. In early August I viewed a relatively new home with Joe in > which > there were serious paint failures, and the siding had been stripped, > and it > looked pretty clear that the Tyvek had allowed water in. > > Marc Rosenbaum > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 26 18:22:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA29098 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:22:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA27094 for ; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17958; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:14:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:09:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA17466 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:09:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com (emout05.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.96]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17462; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:09:12 -0500 (EST) From: Strawnet@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id SAA22395; Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:11:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 18:11:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971026180947_1278727756@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: More Symposium Info Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 338 Sorry for not providing the following info in my post about the "Sustainable Building Envelope Materials" Symposium. For more info please check these web sites: and The following is from the registration page from the web site: BETEC Symposium, November 19, 1997 by November 7 after November 7 Member* $125.00 ____ $150.00 ____ Non-Member $150.00 ____ $200.00 ____ Non-members joining BETEC (1-yr membership)** $200.00 ____ $225.00 ____ * Member rate applies to members of BETEC and members or staff of co-sponsors. ** Non-members attending symposium may join BETEC for an additional $50 charge for a one-year membership. (50% off the regular membership fee) Mail or FAX to: BETEC Symposium, 1090 Vermont Avenue, NW, Suite 700, Washington, DC 20005 (our NEW mailing address) FAX: 202-289-1092 or Telephone Registrations or Questions: 202-289-7800; e-mail: pcichowski@nibs.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 27 09:40:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA05515 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:40:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA04313 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:35:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07621; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:31:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:26:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07181 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:25:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07177; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:25:54 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id J}K23005; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:26:48 EST To: bhoward2@sprynet.com Cc: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, kschwan@bright.net Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:11:26 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: hydronic heating (routed inquiry) Message-ID: <19971027.083513.3662.0.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <199710251505.IAA26028@m5.sprynet.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-4,6-19,21-29,31-71 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 339 This person (or whomever) can contact the Radient Panel Association. They will refer to a list of contractors, distributors and vendors in your area who sell and install radient heating/cooling systems (floor, drive, otherwise). In my research the vendor that I found most cooperative and willing to design around a solar collector was: Earth Star Energy Systems POB 626 Waldoboro, ME 04572 207-832-6861 Fax: 207-832-7314 The Radient Panel Association can be contacted at: POB 327 6205 S. 1800 W. Hyrum, UT 84319 810-245-0128 Fax: 801-245-0130 This information was current as of 12/96. Please mention that we sent you to these vendors. It does help. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:05:01 -0700 bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) writes: > >Anybody out there with some feedback on the following question? >Routed by: Bion Howard (non-member submission on EEBA-L) > > !!! Respond to: Ken Schwan > >------------------------------------------------------- ><---- Begin Forwarded Message ----> >Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:19:02 -0400 >From: Ken Schwan >Reply-To: kschwan@bright.net >To: owner-ee-building@crest.org >Subject: hydronic heating > >Hi, I'm in the USA. I'm building a new house in the spring. It is >planned for all electric, but I plan to incorporate PEX tubing into >the >basement & garage flooring when I build. I have plenty of wood to >burn. >I'm planning to add a efficent wood-fired boiler & heat the basement >floor as well as capture the radiant heat from the stove for the >house. >Eventually, I plan to add radiators in different areas in the house & >possibly add to this system with solar heat. Wood, grain, whatever is >renewable & stoves are much less polluting now here due to EPA >regulations. The cat's pajamas I think will be solar heat in the >future. >KEN > ><---- End Forwarded Message ----> > > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Energy Efficient Building list: sponsored >by the Energy Efficient Building Association (EEBA), a >non-profit educational organization >with the assistance of CREST and >Howard Associates # # # >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 27 18:30:54 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA12081 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:30:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA06027 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:25:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02346; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:22:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:17:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA01984 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from c2smtp.payette.com (c2smtp.payette.com [199.232.148.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA01979 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:17:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from NetWare MHS (SMF70) by c2smtp.payette.com via Connect2-SMTP 4.01.b32G; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:00:06 -0500 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:00:02 -5000 From: Daniel Arons Organization: Payette Associates Inc. To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Wraps MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.01.b32G MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 340 Marc, Perhaps everyone else on the list is up to speed except me, but pray tell, what is a surfactant. Sounds like a someone who partakes of playing in those Pacific waves you've been watching... The fact that you mention cedar (and California redwoods) makes me think that acidity is to blame here... Looking forward to enlightenment... Dan ********************** Daniel Arons Architect Payette Associates, Inc (617)342-8201 ext. 324 darons@payette.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 27 19:57:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA12726 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:57:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA28236 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:52:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA06066; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:49:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:45:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05694 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:44:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05688 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:44:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA92572; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:44:09 -0700 Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:44:08 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Daniel Arons Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: SURFACTANTS, was: Wraps In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 341 Dan: Further to your question re: the above, as noted in the attached below, in our case "surfactants" are soapy components of our elastomeric polymer roofing membrance that leaches out during rain. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Daniel Arons wrote: > > Perhaps everyone else on the list is up to speed except me, but pray > tell, what is a surfactant. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 27 22:33:25 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA14015 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA04902 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:28:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12280; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:24:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:20:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA12020 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:20:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12015 for ; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:20:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from kuts19p16.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA07598; Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:23:25 -0600 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971028032539.0069b4a4@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:25:39 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Geothermal based pressurized antifreeze Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 342 Would appreciate more information about the system referenced in the latest Green Clips item (see below) regarding pressurization of antifreeze to raise or lower temperatures to heat or ac a building. Pressurized how? Safe? Are there residential protypes for the system? Cost? Practicality? I'll be happy to follow up references if someone will point me in the right direction. Unclear to me whether the system itself is a prototype or simply McDonald's use is. Thanks, Sacie Lambertson "When it opens in December, a McDonald's restaurant in the Detroit suburb of Westland will be the first in the chain to use a geothermal heating and cooling system. If the prototype is successful, the company could roll out the system chain-wide. Instead of a furnace, air-conditioner, and water heater, the system will use the earth's constant temperature to heat, cool, and provide hot water for the 3,600-square-foot restaurant without flame or fossil fuels. A solution of water and environmentally friendly antifreeze in an underground pipe absorbs the heat of the earth. The temperature in the pipe remains steady at about 50 degrees F. Pressurizing the solution raises its temperature to over 180 degrees. Reversing the process cools the solution, returning its heat to the earth. McDonald's decided to try the system to save money on its utility bills, says director of operations Dave Daniels. - Detroit Free Press, October 17, 1997, by Deborah Solomon." ABOUT THE PUBLISHER Architectural researcher and environmental consultant Chris Hammer of Sustainable Design Resources publishes GreenClips in San Francisco. Ms. Hammer helps building owners, designers, builders, and facility managers practice sustainable building design, construction, and operation. GreenClips is written by Chris Hammer and James Richert. For more information call 415.928.7941. SUBSCRIPTIONS AND DISTRIBUTION To request a free subscription, email GreenClips@aol.com. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 28 09:20:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA18622 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA11676 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:15:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26170; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:12:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:07:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25537 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:07:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25525; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:06:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA151816; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:08:46 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:08:46 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: kschwan@bright.net Cc: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: EEBA-L: hydronic heating (routed inquiry) (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 343 Ken: Further to your inquiry on the above topic (as attached below) the only backup heat we have for space heating and domestic hot water in our home is wood using a hydrocoil in our Tempcast masonry heater that is used for space heating, thermal storage of passive solar heat, hot water heating and bak- ing in the fall, winter and spring, while in the summer it is used as a thermal flywheel (passive cooling). We live in the city and in a very cold climate.The combustion efficiency is rated at 94% and the thermal efficiency is rated at 61%. EPA certification is not required. The wood we get is free and normally would be sent to the landfill a standard tipping charges. Wood does not increase the net CO2 to the greenhouse effect. The disadvantage of masonry heaters is that they are expensive. We also use a solar collector for domestic hot water, and any surplus not required is downloaded into the floor. If you are interested in this system, I could provide you with 2 names that would be of further use. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 08:05:01 -0700 From: Bion Howard To: ee-building@crest.org Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, kschwan@bright.net Subject: EEBA-L: hydronic heating (routed inquiry) Anybody out there with some feedback on the following question? Routed by: Bion Howard (non-member submission on EEBA-L) !!! Respond to: Ken Schwan ------------------------------------------------------- <---- Begin Forwarded Message ----> Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 00:19:02 -0400 From: Ken Schwan Reply-To: kschwan@bright.net To: owner-ee-building@crest.org Subject: hydronic heating Hi, I'm in the USA. I'm building a new house in the spring. It is planned for all electric, but I plan to incorporate PEX tubing into the basement & garage flooring when I build. I have plenty of wood to burn. I'm planning to add a efficent wood-fired boiler & heat the basement floor as well as capture the radiant heat from the stove for the house. Eventually, I plan to add radiators in different areas in the house & possibly add to this system with solar heat. Wood, grain, whatever is renewable & stoves are much less polluting now here due to EPA regulations. The cat's pajamas I think will be solar heat in the future. KEN <---- End Forwarded Message ----> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Energy Efficient Building list: sponsored by the Energy Efficient Building Association (EEBA), a non-profit educational organization with the assistance of CREST and Howard Associates # # # ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 28 09:24:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA18641 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:24:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA12433 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:18:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26508; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:15:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:11:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26009 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:10:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailnfs0.tiac.net (mailnfs0.tiac.net [199.0.65.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25998 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:10:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from p6.ts1.sprin.MA.tiac.com (p6.ts1.sprin.MA.tiac.com [206.119.231.167]) by mailnfs0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with SMTP id JAA30368 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:14:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by p6.ts1.sprin.MA.tiac.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCE381.8B024780@p6.ts1.sprin.MA.tiac.com>; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:11:58 -0500 Message-ID: <01BCE381.8B024780@p6.ts1.sprin.MA.tiac.com> From: Duncan Prahl To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Geothermal based pressurized antifreeze Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:47:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA26001 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 344 I think this is another example of Reporter oversimplification. To my knowledge, closed loop GHP systems use antifreeze to extract or reject heat to the ground. This is then passed through a heat exchanger, where the energy is absorber or rejected to a refrigerant, which then goes through the usual heat pump compressor, coil, and metering valve setup to either heat or cool the building. I have never heard of a system that uses antifreeze and water as the refrigerant. There are direct exchange systems that use copper coils in the ground and the refrigerant goes outdoors and extracts or rejects heat to the ground through the copper, but I don't think this is what McDonalds is using. My experience with reporters is that they are not generally able to convey the principles of the refrigerant cycle to readers in a simple way, and don't generally understand it themselves, so they oversimplify. This restaurant might be a case study on the GHPC's website - www.ghpc.org Duncan Prahl, AIA Spectrum Design Collaborative, LLC An intregrative approach to planning, design, and construction management 32 Masonic Street Northampton, MA 413-585-5964 -----Original Message----- From: David F. Lambertson [SMTP:dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu] Sent: Monday, October 27, 1997 10:26 PM To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Geothermal based pressurized antifreeze Would appreciate more information about the system referenced in the latest Green Clips item (see below) regarding pressurization of antifreeze to raise or lower temperatures to heat or ac a building. Pressurized how? Safe? Are there residential protypes for the system? Cost? Practicality? I'll be happy to follow up references if someone will point me in the right direction. Unclear to me whether the system itself is a prototype or simply McDonald's use is. Thanks, Sacie Lambertson "When it opens in December, a McDonald's restaurant in the Detroit suburb of Westland will be the first in the chain to use a geothermal heating and cooling system. If the prototype is successful, the company could roll out the system chain-wide. Instead of a furnace, air-conditioner, and water heater, the system will use the earth's constant temperature to heat, cool, and provide hot water for the 3,600-square-foot restaurant without flame or fossil fuels. A solution of water and environmentally friendly antifreeze in an underground pipe absorbs the heat of the earth. The temperature in the pipe remains steady at about 50 degrees F. Pressurizing the solution raises its temperature to over 180 degrees. Reversing the process cools the solution, returning its heat to the earth. McDonald's decided to try the system to save money on its utility bills, says director of operations Dave Daniels. - Detroit Free Press, October 17, 1997, by Deborah Solomon." ABOUT THE PUBLISHER Architectural researcher and environmental consultant Chris Hammer of Sustainable Design Resources publishes GreenClips in San Francisco. Ms. Hammer helps building owners, designers, builders, and facility managers practice sustainable building design, construction, and operation. GreenClips is written by Chris Hammer and James Richert. For more information call 415.928.7941. SUBSCRIPTIONS AND DISTRIBUTION To request a free subscription, email GreenClips@aol.com. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 28 10:25:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA19388 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:25:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00063 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:20:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29099; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:16:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:11:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28723 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:11:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28719 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:11:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA172712; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:12:41 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:12:41 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Oliver Rempillo Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: bagas In-Reply-To: <344EDA69.D6CD9511@cryogen.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 345 Oliver: Besides formaldehyde-free particle board called Medite II or Primeboard (strawboard), BAGAS (from sugar cane left-overs) should be available in the Philippines. The heat of fusion can bond the material together without the use of other resins or glues. I have seen a sample from China. In addition, Fiberbond sheathing/wallboard uses starch as the bonding agent.I am interested in more info on this product. ___________________________________________________________________________ Helen Ostowski, B.S. Arch. (Philippines), - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Oliver Rempillo wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm Oliver Rempillo an industrial design student. I'm looking for > alternative material in making furnitures that is environmentally > friendly. Particle boards still uses formanldehyde resins. Are there > any other glue that could replace formaldehyde? > Is polyurea resin more ecofriendly? And are their plastic boards that > would at least match the price of plywood and its workability as > material for furniture especially computer workstations? > > I found a type of particle board here in the Philippines. > Instead of it bonded by any resins, it is bonded by concrete. > They call it CBB concrete bonded board. Is concrete more > eco friendly than those resin or is it more harmful? > > PS. please include websites, emails, fax # and addresses. > > Your favorable response would be deeply appreciated. > > Oliver Rempillo > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 28 14:47:05 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA23086 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:47:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26558 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:41:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10894; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:38:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:33:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10120 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:33:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10107; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA169978; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:34:19 -0700 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:34:19 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "David F. Lambertson" Cc: spearing@intertrek.com, tempcast@inforamp.net, hollen@vigra.com, strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: GBlist: solar/wood hydronic heating In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971028171713.006a8b20@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 346 Sacie: Hydrocoil was manufactured in Grass Valley CA.The Tempcast (manufacturer's name, see above) is in the Living room. Yes we have radiant floor heating. About 60% of all space heating is passive solar even though our south elevation is 45 degrees off magnetic south. For the Tempcast masonry heater send e-mail to John LaGamba. For solar hot water heating integrated with wood and radiant floor heating send an e-mail to Patrick Spearing (see above). _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, David F. Lambertson wrote: > Dear Jorg, Regarding the following and your always interesting responses: > the only backup heat we have for space heating and domestic hot > water in our home>is wood using a hydrocoil in our Tempcast masonry heater > that is used for > >space heating, thermal storage of passive solar heat, hot water heating and > bak- > >ing in the fall, winter and spring, while in the summer it is used as a thermal > >flywheel (passive cooling) > > I too am interested in sources for further information about your system. > Tempcast is a brand name I take it? Did you design the hydrocoil for the > heater? Or do they know how to do it? Your heater is sitting in your > sunspace? Do you have thermal storage in your floors ? Am I correct in > understanding you have hydronic coils in your floors too? > What do you use for your main heat source in the winter? I would > like to use wood as a main source (its free for us too) but a geothermal > (pond-based) heat pump for back up heat with a hydronic floor system. Don't > yet know enough about the mechanics and cost of each to rationalize the cost > of either the expensive masonry heater or a 'back-up' system involving pond > based pumps. Passive solar heat source too, of course. > Thanks in advance for your response. > Sacie Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 28 16:20:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA24539 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA24716 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:15:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15270; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:11:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:07:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA14935 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:07:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.1.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA14926 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:07:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.174.161.193] (ad43-193.compuserve.com [199.174.161.193]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA00056 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:10:34 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:10:34 -0800 Message-Id: <199710282110.NAA00056@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: Air pollution emissions calculations (update) To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 347 Air pollution emissions calculations (update) --------------------------------------------- The demo worksheet previously described is now posted: http://www.nrg-builder.com/ftp-resource.htm (( "zipped" file: @ howard associates worksheet link )) MS Excel worksheet on residential emissions avoidance (pounds of pollution) and corresponding estimates of societal value based on peer reviewed literature. ((Reference list is available with password)) ,,,,,,, Virus Checker: McAfee (10/97 dat) ---------------< Contact Information >----------------- Mr. Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, Maryland 20773 USA bdhoward@ix.netcom.com <--> http://www.nrg-builder.com Voice# 410-867-8000 fax# 301-889-0889 ------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 28 17:27:41 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA25252 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:27:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA15521 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:22:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18504; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:19:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:14:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA18182 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:14:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.2.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18177 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:14:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.174.161.193] (ad43-193.compuserve.com [199.174.161.193]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA16510 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:17:44 -0800 Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:17:44 -0800 Message-Id: <199710282217.OAA16510@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: Better Meetings Announcement Strategy (digest GB v1-#419) To: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <199710270700.CAA29171@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 348 Positive Suggestion | Better Meetings Announcement Strategy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Just finished reading a _lengthy_ meeting attachment to a GBL message. Here's an idea... we currently produce an events calendar on line, for EEBA. Why not send these types of event information -> at no charge <- to us at: [ bdhoward@ix.netcom.com ] for posting. Then all you need to do is use the EEBA url for the "events" page in your announcement posts, and ask list readers to look up meetings information you can really use. check it out: http://www.eeba.org/events.htm This list gets updated about every two-weeks, and rolls out through the year 2000 with events in buildings area. EEBA would benefit from a good flow of new information of possible interest to members, and the list(s) would benefit by reducing postings on list to short tags announcing new meetings info, after it gets updated. >> Please send submissions to Bion Howard, EEBA Eastern Region Office >> ---- (RE:) Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 04:32:06 -0500 (EST) From: Strawnet@aol.com Subject: GBlist: "Sustainable Building Envelope Materials" Symposium << lengthy text posting of agenda and speakers...>> ---- ---------------< Contact Information >----------------- Mr. Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, Maryland 20773 USA bdhoward@ix.netcom.com <--> http://www.nrg-builder.com Voice# 410-867-8000 fax# 301-889-0889 ------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 28 18:48:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA26085 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:48:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA16882 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:43:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21575; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:40:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:35:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA21170 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:35:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21161 for ; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 18:35:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA21090; Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:31:11 -0800 Message-ID: <34567641.F050B7A1@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:33:21 -0800 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Arons CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Wraps X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 349 Hi Dan I wish I was a little more up to speed myself, or had a few years to come to terms with the wide and confusing usage of chemicals. Surfactants are primarily a petroleum based product. A polymer with benzene as a bonding agent. Generally a high VOC product. Surfactants attach (or adsorb) to materials and break the surface tension of either water or oil as it contacts the surface. The molecules are polar in nature being highly solvent to water on one end and resistant on the other (so to speak) Surfactants are used daily in the form of synthetic soaps, cosmetic applications, etc. In the case of polyolefin materials the surfactant should allow the transmission of water in only one direction. I am curious as to what is happening in reaction to cedar and redwood - my suspicion is that the oils in those woods being dissolved and possibly blocking any vapour movement from the interior. What would allow transmission of moisture from the exterior I cannot guess except to say that surfactants are not very well understood. I'm not very scientifically inclined so I would appreciate if someone more chemically minded can complete the story and solve the mystery. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Daniel Arons wrote: > > Marc, > > Perhaps everyone else on the list is up to speed except me, but pray > tell, what is a surfactant. Sounds like a someone who partakes of > playing in those Pacific waves you've been watching... The fact that > you mention cedar (and California redwoods) makes me think that > acidity is to blame here... > > Looking forward to enlightenment... > > Dan > > ********************** > > Daniel Arons > Architect > Payette Associates, Inc > (617)342-8201 ext. 324 > darons@payette.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 29 07:25:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA02945 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:25:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA21561 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:19:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA10038; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:16:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:10:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA09769 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:10:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA09760 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:10:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.25.64.232] (usr2a36.rut.sover.net [206.25.64.232]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA22493 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:13:47 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199710282217.OAA16510@m5.sprynet.com> References: <199710270700.CAA29171@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:15:09 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Better Meetings Announcement Strategy Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 350 Greetings, folks, I'd like to thank Bion for this suggestion. Many have noted that this list is best used for real discussions, rather than as a bulletin board for announcements. Since people are likely to continue to try to make meeting announcements anyhow, the Calendar idea is a good one. However, it would seem that the detailed "Calendar of Events" on the ebuild.com Web site would be a more appropriate place, as EBN is a sponsor of this e-mail discussion, and it covers everything greenbuilding related. Events that are sent in for inclusion in our EBN print Calendar are all included on this Web site Calendar, as well as many more that don't make it into the print version for lack of space. The URL for the ebuild.com calendar is: http://www.ebuild.com/Current/Calendar.html If the event is relevant to both greenbuilding and energy-efficient building communities, it would make sense to submit it to both Calendars. Please send submissions to me (nadav@ebuild.com) or to dforrett@ebuild.com, or mail them to us at: Environmental Building News RR 1 Box 161 Brattleboro, VT 05301 If you have a Web page with more details on the event, don't forget to include the address for that page so we can link to it. Cheers, Nadav > Positive Suggestion | Better Meetings Announcement Strategy > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Just finished reading a _lengthy_ meeting attachment to a GBL message. > > Here's an idea... we currently produce an events calendar on line, for >EEBA. > Why not send these types of event information -> at no charge <- to us >at: [ >bdhoward@ix.netcom.com ] for posting. Then all you need to do is use the >EEBA >url for the "events" page in your announcement posts, and ask list readers to >look up meetings information you can really use. > > check it out: http://www.eeba.org/events.htm > > This list gets updated about every two-weeks, and rolls out through the >year >2000 with events in buildings area. EEBA would benefit from a good flow >of new >information of possible interest to members, and the list(s) would benefit by >reducing postings on list to short tags announcing new meetings info, >after it >gets updated. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 29 10:43:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA05291 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:43:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA28307 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:38:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16515; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:34:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:29:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16081 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:29:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.1.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16076 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:29:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.174.228.114] (hd48-114.hil.compuserve.com [199.174.228.114]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA01930 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:32:25 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:32:25 -0800 Message-Id: <199710291532.HAA01930@m5.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: bhoward2@sprynet.com (Bion Howard) Subject: GBlist: Meetings Listing Related Post (retract) To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.10.06.22 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 351 Green Building List Members -- I'll keep it short -- OOOP's --------------------------------------------------------------------- I have been informed my post offering the EEBA Events listing on the web as a haven for meetings info was way out of line. Former ignorance of the EBN "calendar" is a poor excuse. I'm sorry if anyone was offended, and I posted with the best of intentions to help the list bandwidth. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now having re-visited the Environmental Building News website, obviously your best bet for a _green building_ calendar >> is at EBN !!! http://www.ebuild.com (link to calendar) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Such errors will not happen again. The best intentions are frequently the path to perdition on the Net...and if all else fails, read the FAQ... ---------------< Contact Information >----------------- Mr. Bion D. (look before you leap) Howard Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, Maryland 20773 USA bdhoward@ix.netcom.com <--> http://www.nrg-builder.com Voice# 410-867-8000 fax# 301-889-0889 ------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 29 12:03:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06175 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:03:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA22082 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:58:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21315; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:55:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:50:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA20910 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:50:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20905 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.46 (pm1-14.hoosier.net [206.106.67.46]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA21849; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:54:02 -0500 Message-ID: <34576992.58CA@bloomington.in.us> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:51:29 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Discussion CC: vjtp47a@prodigy.com Subject: GBlist: Editor vs NAHB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 352 A man recently lost his job after taking a stand in favor of the environment. As Editor In Chief of Professional Builder magazine, James D. Carper spoke out against what he felt was anti-environmentalist rhetoric by National Association of Home Builders (NAHB) president H. Daniel Pincus. Shortly afterwards, Carper was fired from his job. In an Editorial in Professional Builder’s October 1997 issue, titled “Let’s Cool Anti-Environmental Talk,” Carper said that “NAHB risks ending up on the wrong side of the issue unless it tones down its anti-environmentalist comments.” He was speaking about an Opinion piece by Pincus in the same issue titled “Environmentalists Want To Block Your Property Rights” which said environmentalists “want property owners to continue to go broke, or die or give up before taking claims are heard.” Pincus’ comments were in reference to a bill (H.R. 1534) which deals with private property rights. In his Editorial, Carper said NAHB “is on track to establish...an anti-environmentalist reputation for itself.” He went on to point out that NAHB’s own surveys show that most builders save trees, minimize site disruption, build more energy-efficient homes, etc. Carper “never thought to use ‘environmentalist’ as a pejorative. But NAHB and its elected officer apparently do.” Carper did point out that Pincus was free to express his opinions, but that his overstatements were causing other NAHB staff members to cringe. To be fair to Professional Builder, Carper might have gotten a little too personal by saying “Take a pill and settle down, Danny.” An industry insider (who wishes to remain anonymous) told me there were other issues involved in the firing that took place prior to the October Editorial. After reading Carper’s Editorial, but before I was aware of his firing, I sent the following Letter to the Editor to Professional Builder, agreeing with him. I don’t know if it will be printed in the magazine or not. Dear Editor: I agree wholeheartedly with your October '97 editorial about how NAHB is cultivating an anti-environmentalist image. I picked up a form at one of their national conventions a couple of years ago for people to check off the most burdensome federal regulations. EVERY item on the list involved health or the environment. Burdensome federal regulations on the list included various OSHA and energy regulations, radon, wetlands, clean air, solid waste, endangered species, ADA accessibility guidelines, etc. There was nothing on this form asking for members opinions on these issues. It was assumed that all regulations were bad, just that some were worse than others. I feel NAHB is losing touch with reality. Polls routinely show that the public is interested in environmental issues. Many builders enjoy the environment by spending weekends in state and national parks communing with nature. Yes, most of us are against burdensome regulations of all sorts, but we can't live in a society without rules. Environmentally conscious builders are finding that green issues sell, but NAHB is getting a reputation for being against the environment. In doing so, they are not serving themselves, society, or their membership. John Bower If anyone would like to write to Professional Builder, the Publisher, Jay McKenzie, can be emailed at jmckenzie@cahners.com James D. Carper can be emailed at vjtp47a@prodigy.com -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 29 13:55:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA07348 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:55:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA03126 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:49:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25576; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:46:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:42:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25221 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:42:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from CLEMSON.EDU (mail.clemson.edu [130.127.28.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25217 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:42:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.clemson.edu ([206.240.183.38] (may be forged)) by CLEMSON.EDU (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA01508 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:45:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:45:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19971029134530.389f1268@mail.clemson.edu> X-Sender: cdewitt@mail.clemson.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Craig DeWitt Subject: Re: GBlist: Wraps Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 353 My intrepretation of the housewrap water transmission story is that something leaching from the wood siding acts as a surfactant when the leachate contacts the wrap, allowing water transmission inward through the wrap. (Surfactants reduce the surface tension and make water 'wetter', so that it can flow through small holes better. Anything more technical than that makes me shudder with flashbacks of my Chemical Engineering Transport Phenomena class, which was not my idea of a good time.) John's comment about polyolefin wrap materials having a surfactant that allows transmission of water outward, but not inward, is new info to me. But I am pretty ignorant about how wraps work. (I thought they allowed vapor flow, but not liquid flow, in either direction.) Maybe then, something leaching from the wood alters this existing surfactant such that water can move both ways, or inward rather than outward. I, too, am anxious to hear the rest of the story. Craig DeWitt SC Energy R&D Center Clemson University ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 29 18:47:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA12059 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:47:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA12882 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07408; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:38:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:32:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA07068 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:32:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA07064 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:32:39 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id SIT12034; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:32:47 EST To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, vjtp47a@prodigy.com Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:52:03 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Editor vs NAHB Message-ID: <19971029.174040.3958.0.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <34576992.58CA@bloomington.in.us> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,10-11,16-17,20-21,23-31,33-52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 354 John, A very timely post. Nice to see industry related topics here on this list. I have had the opportunity to be a NAHB member via a previous membership in the local builders association. When we were members of our local Greater San Antonio Builders Association (GSABA) I attended a dinner where they acknowledged new associate officers. The MC for the evening stood up and parroted the NAHB position. The officers elected that year were mostly accountants and lawyers. Sort of figures. That position was and continues to be one that insists builders get as much as they can as fast as they can from the customer, the law and the environment because there is no tomorrow. Here in South Texas we have a problem with builders and developers erecting crap on top of the only available water source, an aquifer recharge zone. There is nothing sustainable in that concept and it contributes to a perception that builders and developers are little more than rape and pillagers. I have a invitation to a lunch next week where GSABA is going to invite us and other former members back into the fold. Hmmmm. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:51:29 -0500 John Bower writes: >A man recently lost his job after taking a stand in favor of the >environment. > >As Editor In Chief of Professional Builder magazine, James D. Carper >spoke out against what he felt was anti-environmentalist rhetoric by >National Association of Home Builders (NAHB) president H. Daniel >Pincus. >Shortly afterwards, Carper was fired from his job. > >In an Editorial in Professional Builder’s October 1997 issue, titled >“Let’s Cool Anti-Environmental Talk,” Carper said that “NAHB risks >ending up on the wrong side of the issue unless it tones down its >anti-environmentalist comments.” He was speaking about an Opinion >piece >by Pincus in the same issue titled “Environmentalists Want To Block >Your >Property Rights” which said environmentalists “want property owners to >continue to go broke, or die or give up before taking claims are >heard.” ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 29 21:56:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA14203 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:56:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA25112 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:51:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA13063; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:47:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:42:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12742 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:42:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from sparticus.eurekanet.com (root@sparticus.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12737 for ; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 21:41:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (port-02-16.athens.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.146]) by sparticus.eurekanet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA01324; Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:15:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199710300315.WAA01324@sparticus.eurekanet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Catherine M. Muller" Organization: National Center for Appropriate Technology To: Craig DeWitt Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 01:29:30 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Wraps Reply-to: cmuller@ncat.org CC: greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <2.2.16.19971029134530.389f1268@mail.clemson.edu> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 355 I've heard Joe Lstiberuk speak several times on the issue of wood siding sitting directly on housewrap, and my memory is that these are naturally occuring surfactants in the wood, not the housewrap. (Mark's original post on this was quoting Joe.) The big problem is the water gets through the wrap into the sheathing, which can then act as a large moisture reservoir. Vapor can still pass outward, and does when the driving pressure is in that direction. Since the wet sheathing holds a large quantity of water, the amount of vapor generated is greater than under normal circumstances and can be enough to cause paint to peel, etc. The wet sheathing is also a candidate for rot. My memory is that the problem can be significantly alleviated if the siding is furred out from the sheathing and wrap. I can't remember if Joe feels this combination provides a sufficient drainage plane. Does anyone out there remember? > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:45:34 -0500 (EST) > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > From: Craig DeWitt > Subject: Re: GBlist: Wraps > My intrepretation of the housewrap water transmission story is that > something leaching from the wood siding acts as a surfactant when the > leachate contacts the wrap, allowing water transmission inward through the > wrap. (Surfactants reduce the surface tension and make water 'wetter', so > that it can flow through small holes better. Anything more technical than > that makes me shudder with flashbacks of my Chemical Engineering Transport > Phenomena class, which was not my idea of a good time.) > > John's comment about polyolefin wrap materials having a surfactant that > allows transmission of water outward, but not inward, is new info to me. > But I am pretty ignorant about how wraps work. (I thought they allowed > vapor flow, but not liquid flow, in either direction.) Maybe then, > something leaching from the wood alters this existing surfactant such that > water can move both ways, or inward rather than outward. > > I, too, am anxious to hear the rest of the story. > > > Craig DeWitt > SC Energy R&D Center > Clemson University > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > Catherine M. Muller Project Coordinator, Multi-family Services National Center for Appropriate Technology 16 Spring Street, Glouster, Ohio 45732 cmuller@ncat.org 614/767-9000 (phone); 614/767-9033 (fax) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 30 11:20:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA20728 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:20:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03945 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:15:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03118; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:11:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:03:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02421 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:03:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailnfs0.tiac.net (mailnfs0.tiac.net [199.0.65.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02411; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:03:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from p1.ts1.sprin.MA.tiac.com (p0.ts2.sprin.MA.tiac.com [206.119.231.193]) by mailnfs0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with SMTP id LAA19600; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:06:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by p1.ts1.sprin.MA.tiac.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCE523.7B11A020@p1.ts1.sprin.MA.tiac.com>; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:03:41 -0500 Message-ID: <01BCE523.7B11A020@p1.ts1.sprin.MA.tiac.com> From: Duncan Prahl To: "'cmuller@ncat.org'" , "'Craig DeWitt'" Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" , "'eebuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Wraps Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:41:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id LAA02413 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 356 OK - here's my take on the story: All the talk about surfactants seems to me to be in line, The are extracted from the redwood with moisture, they allow water to pass through the wrap, moisture gets stored in the plywood, which in turn could cause rot, peeling paint, etc. So what to do? In my mind, the moral of the story here doesn't necessarily have anything to do with how wraps perform, but in understanding the need for redundancy in the rain penetration barriers in a building, and understanding how the individual components of those barriers interact. My approach in the buildings I am currently designing is one of the following (in no particular order) according to my judgement and client requirements: A) prime all sides and cut ends of surfactant rich siding materials exposed to weather, and possibly fur the siding off the house wrap (that is also installed as a drain plane) depending on local climate (wind exposure, etc.) or B) use alternate materials over a wrap (installed as a drain plane) that will not leach surfactants or C) use 15# felt as a drain plain for the building. I am also seriously considering another option D) getting out of the building business altogether because it is just too damned complicated. My recollection is that Joe's conclusion on how the surfactants affected the wrap on the house Marc referred to is that water got behind the siding around windows and trim, soaked into the cedar siding, extracting the surfactants which allowed the water that kept on getting in behind the siding to go through the wrap and into the sheathing (I also recall others having other opinions - surprise surprise). As I've heard Joe say, and verified myself, (reference Tyvek TechTalk, October 1994, Pub # H60108 titled "Building to Resist Bulk Water Penetration") DuPont says "It should be noted that surfactants can affect the water holdout performance of all secondary weather resistive barriers. A certain amount of water penetration can also be expected around holes from mechanical fasteners used to install various components of the wall system. Use of exterior sheathing helps reduce these problems and maximizes bulk water resistance of the wall systems. (then, in bold italics,) When no ! exterior sheathing is used, careful selection and installation of exterior facade materials ands secondary weather resistive membrane is important. I guess my concern is first of all, what builder would ever read this stuff, and furthermore how many of them might even know what a surfactant is and where they come from. Building to Resist Bulk Water Penetration seems to be written as an argument to use Tyvek as a water barrier, as opposed to 15# felt, which is next best in terms of water resistance according to "independent laboratory tests." -----Original Message----- From: Catherine M. Muller [SMTP:cmuller@ncat.org] Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 1997 8:30 PM To: Craig DeWitt Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Wraps I've heard Joe Lstiberuk speak several times on the issue of wood siding sitting directly on housewrap, and my memory is that these are naturally occuring surfactants in the wood, not the housewrap. (Mark's original post on this was quoting Joe.) The big problem is the water gets through the wrap into the sheathing, which can then act as a large moisture reservoir. Vapor can still pass outward, and does when the driving pressure is in that direction. Since the wet sheathing holds a large quantity of water, the amount of vapor generated is greater than under normal circumstances and can be enough to cause paint to peel, etc. The wet sheathing is also a candidate for rot. My memory is that the problem can be significantly alleviated if the siding is furred out from the sheathing and wrap. I can't remember if Joe feels this combination provides a sufficient drainage plane. Does anyone out there remember? > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:45:34 -0500 (EST) > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > From: Craig DeWitt > Subject: Re: GBlist: Wraps > My intrepretation of the housewrap water transmission story is that > something leaching from the wood siding acts as a surfactant when the > leachate contacts the wrap, allowing water transmission inward through the > wrap. (Surfactants reduce the surface tension and make water 'wetter', so > that it can flow through small holes better. Anything more technical than > that makes me shudder with flashbacks of my Chemical Engineering Transport > Phenomena class, which was not my idea of a good time.) > > John's comment about polyolefin wrap materials having a surfactant that > allows transmission of water outward, but not inward, is new info to me. > But I am pretty ignorant about how wraps work. (I thought they allowed > vapor flow, but not liquid flow, in either direction.) Maybe then, > something leaching from the wood alters this existing surfactant such that > water can move both ways, or inward rather than outward. > > I, too, am anxious to hear the rest of the story. > > > Craig DeWitt > SC Energy R&D Center > Clemson University > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > Catherine M. Muller Project Coordinator, Multi-family Services National Center for Appropriate Technology 16 Spring Street, Glouster, Ohio 45732 cmuller@ncat.org 614/767-9000 (phone); 614/767-9033 (fax) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 30 12:42:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA21866 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:42:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA28950 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:37:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07802; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:33:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:27:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA07209 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:27:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07202 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:27:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.26] (blf26.acadia.net [205.217.217.26]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA20935 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:30:32 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:29:01 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: NAHB, wraps and OSB Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 357 Dear Folks, I've been lurking on this list for awhile. It's great! I'm responding to two current topics, and asking about another. On the NAHB: here in Maine, I recently testified against a bill about "Takings" legislation - essentially a bill that makes local governments pay people not to pollute. The Maine representative of the NAHB testified in favor of the bill. During his testimony, he stated for the record, "In my opinion, Timothy McVeigh is a hero." This outfit claims to represent many of us - chilling, eh? My understanding of Joe Lstiburek's views on housewraps are that he now advocates using asphalt impregnated felt instead of housewraps, and that all siding be placed on a rainscreen (furring strip) to equalize air pressure on either side of the siding. Do others out there know if this is correct? My question is: what do you folks think of the environmental pros and cons of oriented strand board as an exterior sheathing? In my case, I'm comparing OSB to plywood and regionally produced boards. My understanding is that OSB is a very efficient use of low-grade wood fiber, but that the sources of even this fiber are being overharvested. My understanding is that OSB today uses phenol resins instead of urea formaldehyde, making outgassing less of a concern. My impression is that OSB is not as durable as alternate sheathings, especially if it is exposed to rain during construction. I'd be grateful to learn if my views are reasonable, and what other folks think about OSB's relative "green-ness", compared to available alternatives. Thanks very much. David Foley Holland and Foley, Architects and Construction Managers 232 Beech Hill Rd. Northport, Maine 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 30 12:59:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA22110 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:59:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA04472 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:54:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08560; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:51:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:45:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08152 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:45:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08148 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:45:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA15371 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:48:14 -0500 Message-id: <1202833@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 30 Oct 97 12:53:18 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: NAHB, wraps and OSB To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 358 My bad experience with OSB is letting EPS core stress skin structural panels get wet during construction. They were horizontal and it took over 3 months for the bottom OSB skin to get down to 20 percent moisture content. I now only use OSB in places where it can dry out before being encapsulated, and I include special instructions about protecting stress skin panels! Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 30 13:33:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA22999 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:33:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA16664 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:28:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10388; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:24:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:20:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA10089 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:20:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10074 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:20:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.203] (li-ppp22.hevanet.com [204.119.60.203]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26573 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:23:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:23:46 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: NAHB, wraps and OSB Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 359 Hi, Y'all-- Ted Haskell, our local Energy Guy, helped his parents build a house on the Oregon coast a few years ago, and the builder agreed to install a vented rain screen, that is, siding over furring over wrap. As I recall the builder's comments, they were in the "*@%#!!" vein because of all the changes in detailing, like where siding meets windows, that the rain screen required. Anyone else have experience with such screens? Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 30 14:27:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA24023 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA08958 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:22:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12596; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:18:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:13:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12238 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from CLEMSON.EDU (mail.clemson.edu [130.127.28.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12234 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:13:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.clemson.edu ([206.240.183.38] (may be forged)) by CLEMSON.EDU (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA22261 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:17:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:17:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19971030141703.2d2f8ec2@mail.clemson.edu> X-Sender: cdewitt@mail.clemson.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Craig DeWitt Subject: GBlist: Rainscreens Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 360 Maybe our forefathers knew something else they forgot to teach us. Take an old drafty window, put a louvered shutter (read rainscreen) in front of it, and viola! no rain leaks. Somewhere I heard (maybe via Lstiburek) that you want the exterior cladding to be 100 times or so leakier than the sheathing, so that air pressures are essentially equalized across this "rainscreen". This keeps water from being driven by air pressure through the cladding. The sheathing layer can then be made air tight, since it only stops air flow, not water flow. Screen out the water, then screen out the air. A gap between the two "screens" appears essential. Craig DeWitt ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 30 15:40:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA24810 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:40:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15130 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:35:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15740; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:26:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15363 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:25:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.1.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15357 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:25:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (rvl-md11-40.ix.netcom.com [206.217.107.168]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA27025 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:29:08 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971030152832.00691b00@m5.sprynet.com> X-Sender: bhoward2@m5.sprynet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 15:28:36 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Bion Howard Subject: GBlist: Re: green building-digest V1 #422 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 361 ********************* E D I T O R I A L *************************** Professional Risk & Environmental Awareness in the Building Industry ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ NAHB has been on the wrong side of the environmental issues facing us, ever since "Silent Spring." Since WWII, development has been the culture of this country, and now that limits to this growth are appearing in any sane persons vision, NAHB is taking a last stand to defend the right to go on with the same tired linear, unsustainable path of mega development. As a former staff member of the NAHB (1986-1990), I share the concerns of Mr. Carper. I myself faced internal challenges while employed by this association, while trying to help improve the energy efficiency and indoor environmental quality information and decision-tools available to the members. What I wound up being ordered to do, was to fight a "rear guard" action against minimal standards and codes that would protect consumers from energy-hogging homes. This same ethic pervades NAHB, that anything having to do with saving energy or reducing environmental impacts is some sort of plot to undo the builder's ability to make a living. Then why is it that green builders nationwide seem to be reporting booming sales, and many referral and repeat customers? They are not waiting for environmental plunder to be grand fathered in politically. Later, I was fortunate enough to get an excellent opportunity with the NAHB Research Center to follow more technical pursuits. However, even there, I noticed the long arm of association policy touched many projects that would otherwise have gone further to help boost the performance and environmental efficacy of housing. To their credit, today the NAHB-RC is much less entrained in the policy issues, and has almost free reign over projects and programs, thanks to some excellent top leadership. It will only be when consumers stop buying sub-standard products that harm the environment, or when tough standards are enacted (... perhaps, when the hammers are pried from the cold dead hands of these "briefcase" builders...) to protect both consumers and the environment, that stories like this will be the exception rather than the norm. This is why I continue to labor on the ASTM front, facing intense opposition from both NAHB and the forest/paper lobby, on residential green building guidelines. (A new version is now available as a PDF at our website - in the "FTP & resources link") It is too bad that the attitudes expressed by NAHB seem to carry so much weight when indeed -- many NAHB members are just "doing it" for green building: To name a few: John Kurkowski, President Denver Metro HBA Russell Arkin, Virginia (first Energy STAR builder) Bill Eich, Iowa super energy pioneer Marc Rosenbaum, Mr. Green Homes Perry Bigelow, (guaranteed energy and IAQ results when no one else had the nerve) and I am sure there are lots more, in pockets like Austin, Denver, Portland, Minnesota...now ready made markets for green homes thanks to the pioneers. Both consumers and crafts-builders who sell value and seek to uphold their reputations will not stand still for more of this, I believe. This is also likely to be an interesting topic at the NAHB Board meeting in January 1998. Although, since NAHB disbanded the Energy Committee into a subsection of another committee, there is no political structure for green builders to be heard very effectively. Just look at the September 9 (I think) issue of Nations Building News -- there was a big splash about green homes marketing, but these stories are always couched in terms of getting the building officials to relax codes like the MEC (Model Energy Code) that groups like the Alliance to Save Energy, NRDC and ACE3 have worked so hard to improve over the last 8 years. I continue to be, as a _former_ NAHB member having just myself resigned to devote more time to EEBA, ASES and PSIC, appalled at the right-wing political rhetoric that comes out in "Nations Building News" and to a lesser extent in Hanley-Wood's _Builder Magazine_ (the "journal of NAHB"). What is surprising is that an independent rag like PB, would roll over to pressure from the 5th floor at NAHB ! Not what I would have expected, having been a source for their staff in the past on several levels. The Professional Builder team always seemed to stay focused on the issues. I will be contacting Mr. Carper myself about several professional opportunities that could be open to him in the wake of this ill conceived situation. Perhaps, he should consider taking some time off to go to some of the many green building and energy related meetings in the next month, around the country. ** Thanks for posting this John, since I don't get PB it would have been awhile until we heard about this. ----------------- snip from digest -------------------------------- >Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:51:29 -0500 >From: John Bower >Subject: GBlist: Editor vs NAHB > > Editor In Chief of Professional Builder magazine, James D. Carper >spoke out against what he felt was anti-environmentalist rhetoric by >National Association of Home Builders (NAHB) president H. Daniel Pincus. >Shortly afterwards, Carper was fired from his job. > >In an Editorial in Professional Builder’s October 1997 issue, titled >“Let’s Cool Anti-Environmental Talk,” Carper said that “NAHB risks >ending up on the wrong side of the issue unless it tones down its >anti-environmentalist comments.” He was speaking about an Opinion piece >by Pincus in the same issue titled “Environmentalists Want To Block Your >Property Rights” which said environmentalists “want property owners to >continue to go broke, or die or give up before taking claims are heard.” >Pincus’ comments were in reference to a bill (H.R. 1534) which deals >with private property rights. ---------------------------------------- end snip ---------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact: Bion Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology bhoward2@sprynet.com Web: ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 30 17:16:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA26085 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:16:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA17576 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:11:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA20062; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:07:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:03:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA19698 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:02:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc513.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19693 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from IEL#u#MAIL-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:08:18 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:08:09 -0500 From: Arnie Katz To: greenbuilding@crest.org, obrien@hevanet.com Subject: Re: GBlist: NAHB, wraps and OSB -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 362 I don't have much experience with rainscreens--but I did use the technique on my own house. By furring out around the door & window openings w/ 1X4's prior to installing the doors and windows, the siding details become the same as they outherwise would have been. No problem (but certainly extra work). Depending on what kind of interior trim details you're using around doors & windows, that can become a hassle. Arnie Katz Advanced Energy Raleigh, NC >>> "Mike O'Brien" 10/30/97 01:23pm >>> Hi, Y'all-- Ted Haskell, our local Energy Guy, helped his parents build a house on the Oregon coast a few years ago, and the builder agreed to install a vented rain screen, that is, siding over furring over wrap. As I recall the builder's comments, they were in the "*@%#!!" vein because of all the changes in detailing, like where siding meets windows, that the rain screen required. Anyone else have experience with such screens? Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 30 19:49:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA28032 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:49:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA06436 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:44:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25295; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:40:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:36:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA24865 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:36:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24860 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 19:36:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA176498; Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:37:53 -0700 Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:37:53 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Bion Howard Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: from PS to Green Builder Magazine In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971030152832.00691b00@m5.sprynet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 363 Bion: Further to the your message as edited below, Mr. Carper should launch a far better magazine called "GREEN BUILDER", with the first issue on his conference trip. Then he could recycle a liability into an asset. The editorial board could consist of the members you listed below. I would suspect there could be strong support from this and other groups. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Bion Howard wrote: > > To name a few: John Kurkowski, President Denver Metro HBA > Russell Arkin, Virginia (first Energy STAR builder) > Bill Eich, Iowa super energy pioneer > Marc Rosenbaum, Mr. Green Homes > Perry Bigelow, (guaranteed energy and IAQ > results when no one else had the nerve) > political rhetoric that comes out in "Nations Building News" and to a > lesser extent in Hanley-Wood's _Builder Magazine_ (the "journal of NAHB"). > > I will be contacting Mr. Carper myself about several professional > opportunities that could be open to him in the wake of this ill conceived > situation. Perhaps, he should consider taking some time off to go to some > of the many green building and energy related meetings in the next month, > around the country. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 31 08:55:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA03508 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:55:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA10775 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:50:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09708; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:46:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:42:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09403 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:41:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout02.mail.aol.com (emout02.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.93]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09399 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:41:50 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA17476; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:44:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:44:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971031084444_2024803447@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: obrien@hevanet.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: NAHB, wraps and OSB Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 364 In a message dated 10/31/97 7:41:43 AM, you wrote: <> Hi Mike, I began building all our houses with rain screens in 1982. It was actually an unintended consequence of the fact that I was using exterior foam sheathing to cut thermal framing loss (stud cavities had foamed in place polyurethane) and I wanted to use ordinary siding nails (I hate those 12p nails for siding). So I furred out with 1x3 for vertical, horizontal, diagonal and the occassional octagonal siding. My recollections of actually putting the stuff up in those dim by-gone years are: 1) plan for nailers real good at corners, windows, doors - edges I guess 2) nail guns or screws are handy at the ends of 1x3s cause it's easy to overnail there and get a dimple in the furring 3) plan the furring so water drains out of it, but wasps can't get in (mud daubers and some of the paper wasps like to nest in the cavity) 4) I screwed the window and door fin trim to the furring (I've had to pull out and reinstall enough windows that I decided I was tired of breaking them), and I flashed them in the same plane - so the wind driven rain barrier was all in the same plane. I've one call back on a leak around one of the windows done this way. The hassle factor was mostly in "oh-my-god-how-many-layers-do-I-have-to-put-on-this-thing" and scheduling things to minimize moving scaffolding. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 31 09:07:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA03594 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:07:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA13112 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:02:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10309; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:59:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:55:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09958 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:55:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin46.mail.aol.com (mrin46.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.156]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09954 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:54:58 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin46.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA21147 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:57:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:57:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971031085656_-1543060102@mrin46.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: No Subject Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 365 Dan, Surfactants are molecules which can hook water up to oils and greases. Typically they're a long molecule with a carbon string surrounded by hydrogen on the end that keys in oils and on the end that loves water they're CH2s, OHs and COONa. They can be produced by adding NaOH to a fatty acid (which is probably what goes on in the cedar and redwood). One of the effects of a surfactant is that it changes the surface tension of water, so the water acts "wetter". It gets through openings it wouldn't on it's own. It screws up the miniscus in your graduated cylinder and it gets oil off your clothes. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 31 10:33:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA04464 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:33:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA05720 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:28:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13628; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:24:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:19:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13121 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:18:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13117 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:18:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA15810; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:14:19 -0800 Message-ID: <3459F64F.D9DEF79F@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:16:31 -0800 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: TBren46501@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Wraps X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <971031085656_-1543060102@mrin46.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 366 Well I was aiming for the wrong barn door - I could not help but think the issue was a synthetic treatment on the wrap and was about to go on a rant about the overproduction and insidious use of surfactants. My apologies if I cnfused anyone other than myself. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. TBren46501@aol.com wrote: > > Dan, > > Surfactants are molecules which can hook water up to oils and greases. > Typically they're a long molecule with a carbon string surrounded by > hydrogen on the end that keys in oils and on the end that loves water > they're > CH2s, OHs and COONa. They can be produced by adding NaOH to a fatty > acid > (which is probably what goes on in the cedar and redwood). One of the > effects of a surfactant is that it changes the surface tension of > water, so > the water acts "wetter". It gets through openings it wouldn't on it's > own. > It screws up the miniscus in your graduated cylinder and it gets oil > off > your clothes. - Terry > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 31 10:33:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA04487 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:33:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA05811 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:28:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13680; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:24:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:20:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13209 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:20:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from oak (caroldag@oak.liii.com [198.207.193.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13203 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:20:20 -0500 (EST) From: "Carol D'Agostino" Received: by oak (8.8.6/8.8.5) id PAA15240; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:23:44 GMT Message-Id: <199710311523.PAA15240@oak> Subject: GBlist: Basement Negative Pressure - How To? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:23:43 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 367 How do I create a *mild* negative pressure in my 25 X 25 basement, 3/4's four foot crawl, the rest approx. 6 ft? I want just enough negative pressure to prevent basement air from infiltrating the first floor, but not strong enough to create a strong negative pressure in the living space. Would a bathroom exhuast fan do the job? Which side of the building should it exhaust to? I don't think it should exhaust to the North, as I am downwind of a dry cleaner and laundromat and this would just be another opening through which a north wind would push the chemicals from these businesses. All educated assistance welcome. Thanks Carol caroldag@liii.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 31 11:07:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04961 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:07:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA15646 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:02:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15003; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:58:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:54:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14705 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:54:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14701 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:54:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from kuts9p03.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA14093; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:57:31 -0600 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971031155946.006a205c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:59:46 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: address for Willmar Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 368 Can someone give me an address for Willmar Windows please? Thank you. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 31 11:56:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA06055 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:56:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28446 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16738; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:46:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:41:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16371 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:41:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16361 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:41:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from kuts9p03.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA21924; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:44:45 -0600 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971031164659.006b593c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:46:59 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: frost protected shallow foundations Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 369 After unsuccessful attempts three-days running to reach any of the three who did research on the FPSF at NAHB, I thought someoneon this list could help me. I am about to put in a frost protected slab on top of which will go a SIP shell for a small cabin in the woods. Thought I should first double check the specs since this cabin could go unheated for parts of the winter, long enough to lose any residual heat from the last wood stove firing. I learned, much to my dismay that I should forget the specs for a heated space and go straight to the unheated one. (If I had really understood the whys for the specs this would have been obvious from the beginning, but I didn't) The unheated version, where I live in Kansas, requires the near minimal protection, which still means an eps ground cover reaching out 48" or so from the slab. The problem is that I'm building on a hill and don't have that space behind the slab. So I thought I might be able to do a hybrid version, with a trench footing in the back and around the sides to the place where I can stretch out those foam sheets and resume the shallow slab. Will this work? Remember this is in the woods, a pretty protected area. I thought I would insulate the outside of the trench footing too as well as outside the shallow slab, even though this isn't in the minimum specs for an unheated building. I plan, by the way, to put in a french drain immediately behind the back (and around the sides), to catch what should be only a small amount of water that runs off the berm which I've already put in place with a swale behind to take the majority water off to the sides. What was intended to be a very simple project is growing to an annoyingly complex one and getting more expensive too. The cabin was originally meant to go on hand-dug piers until we ran into large limestone boulders at the bottom of the site. (The original idea was to disturb the area as little as possible and to do the work ourselves). Now I'm having to bring in huge amounts of fill (site drops three feet back to front) to put in a darned slab--the FPSF was a good answer to having to build it up too high I thought. And then the necessity of digging a swale and building a berm and it goes on-----------Should have talked to this group when I first realized how complicated the project was going. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 31 11:58:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA06074 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:58:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28832 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:52:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16964; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:49:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:45:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16585 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:45:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin38.mail.aol.com (mrin38.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16579 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:45:04 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin38.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA18013; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:47:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:47:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971031111209_1635367412@mrin38> To: aesp-net@aesp.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Submetering Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 370 For an energy audit of two multifamily complexes, I'm looking for estimates of savings which come from submetering (individually metering) electricity and/or gas. Any sources/thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks. Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX IMSHAPIRO@AOL.COM "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 31 12:12:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06234 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:12:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA03546 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:07:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17763; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:03:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:59:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17404 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:59:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17396 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 11:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [153.37.244.130] (1Cust2.max3.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.244.130]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA15186 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 09:02:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199710311702.JAA15186@italy.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: address for Willmar Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 09:06:24 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 371 >Can someone give me an address for Willmar Windows please? Thank you. > Sacie Lambertson Sacie You can contact them at: Willmar Windows 485 Watt Street Winnipeg, MBR2 L2A5 Canada tel: 204-668-8230 tel: 800-665-8438 fax: 204-663-1072 Remember that the contact information for most companies can be found in REDI . If a company is not listed or you know the information to be out of date, please contact me and I'll get right on it. Thanks Bruce S -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 31 15:12:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA08298 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:12:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA00426 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:07:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23396; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:03:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:59:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23083 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:58:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23070 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:58:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from kuts9p06.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA26321; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:02:05 -0600 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971031200419.006cc204@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:04:19 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: FPSF Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 372 By total coincidence, within hours of sending off my earlier question about how to handle a frost protected shallow foundation on a hill, I received calls from two of the three people I've been trying to reach at the NAHB research center.. The recent comments about the Center being exempt from the politics of the industry are right on. Unofficially I now have good advice to do my foundation like some built in Alaska,--ie do my piers as originally planned, but let them be shallow; then shim the foundation beam or sill plate under the cabin so that we can 'adjust' the building should there be any heaving. It is a wonderfully simple, neat solution and far less expensive than what it looked like we were going to have to do. Any comments? Or details I should know? Particularly about the piers, which I think I should do with concrete because termites are a real problem here. And many thanks to the NAHB FPSF research folks; someone there subscribes to this list too, so you know they are on the right track. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 31 18:27:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA10086 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:27:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA29928 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:52:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA27024; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:42:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA26656 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:42:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.vineyard.net (mail@ns2.vineyard.net [204.17.195.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA26651 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:42:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mail.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA26894 for ; Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from bsy7.vineyard.net(199.232.92.87) by mail.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma026885; Fri Oct 31 16:45:48 1997 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:48:27 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Wraps and rain screens Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 373 To all you Surfactant Sleuths: Do any of you know if northern white cedar (the material we use for our shingle siding and roofing, by way of Seven Islands Land Co.) has surfactants in it (surfactants - has a familiar ring to it, doesn't it? feel like I've been saying it for years - everyone's talkin' about 'em lately - Terry, how many surfactants does it take to make a rubber roof leak during an el nino-inspired LA downpour?) ? For several years we've used a product called Cedar Breather, made by Benjamion Obdyke Co., under cedar shingle roofs. It's a spun fiber nylon mat that comes in rolls, about 1/4" thick when compressed, which is rolled out under the shingles, and allows the undersides of the shingles to dry, thereby prolonging their (these days) way-too-short life. So far, the only thing I don't like about the product is its cost. I'm thinking about using it under siding as well, as a rainscreen and, again, to prolong the life of the shingles. Now the only thing I have to worry about is whether nylon is chock full of surfactants. Any advice? John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 1 09:25:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA15583 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 09:25:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA01998 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 09:20:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12206; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 09:16:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 1 Nov 1997 09:10:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11980 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 09:10:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11976 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 09:10:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.21] (mke-1-5.binc.net [208.142.229.21]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA35992 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 08:14:09 -0600 Message-Id: <199711011414.IAA35992@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: OSB Date: Sat, 1 Nov 97 08:23:43 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 374 OSB, as most wood based building materials, is best if not exposed to excessive moisture. All sheathing materials I am aware of have an exposure rating, and the OSB I most frequently use is the same as exterior grade plywood. Edge swell has been an issue in the past with OSB exposed to moisture. OSB manufacturers have become much more sophisticated about applying edge seals to their products, thus reducing the problem substantially. I'm curious to know more about the problem Marc experienced with the SIP's. Were they stored horizontally unprotected for an extended period of time? I certainly wouldn't do that with any wood based building materials. Besides moisture, one needs to worry about the materials "taking a set"- bending to conform to the ground beneath. Wood trusses, lumber, stacks of plywood, and OSB are all in jeopardy of experiencing problems from such treatment. When we recieve SIP's on site, we install them immediately. There's no reason to have the materials laying around- tell the MFR to store them properly until you are ready for them. Then install them ASAP, and cover the roof immediately. The walls can handle bunches of exposure to weather before experiencing deleterious effects. Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 1 10:10:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA16415 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:10:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA10938 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:05:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13075; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:02:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 1 Nov 1997 09:56:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12809 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 09:56:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12805 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 09:56:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.24] (mke-1-8.binc.net [208.142.229.24]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA52808; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 08:59:57 -0600 Message-Id: <199711011459.IAA52808@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Basement Negative Pressure - How To? Date: Sat, 1 Nov 97 09:09:32 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "Carol D'Agostino" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 375 Hi. I've been experimenting with negative pressure in buildings for a couple of years now, and thought I'd offer my simplistic experiences. 1. Negative pressure can be achieved with bath fans, HRV's, and other more sophisticated mechanical (and some non-mechanical) means. 2. Working with my HVAC contractor, we've determined that -1 pascal is about all that's needed to have a good effect on moisture drive in the home. That's not much pressure. Meters that can read pressure are readily available from HVAC supply houses. 3. If one is designing a space (particularly a basement) to operate under negative pressure, one needs to be VERY careful with combustion appliances in the home. Water heaters, furnaces, fireplaces, and stoves must all be direct vent (or non-combustion, in the case of the stove) so that combustion gases (exhaust) are not drawn down the chimney and back into the home. There's lots of case histories of homes which were built tight enough that when a kitchen hood was turned on (or a bath fan) enough of a negative pressure was achieved to draw exhaust down the B-vent chimney of gas fired water heaters, thus poisoning the occupants with combustion gases, most notably CO. Chris Koehn Top Ridge Homes ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 1 12:20:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA17202 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:20:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA13746 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:15:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17406; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:10:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:05:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17124 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:05:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [149.174.206.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17120 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:05:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.8) id MAA20658; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:08:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:08:21 -0500 From: muscoe Subject: GBlist: Geothermal based pressurized antifreeze To: "David F. Lambertson" , "[unknown]" Message-ID: <199711011208_MC2-2657-EF18@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA17121 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 376 I think this is simply an incomplete description of the "refrigeration cycle," which, in reverse, is a standard heat pump. I have always found this to be a difficult thing to teach or explain to architects and have some sympathy for the reporter's plight. A refrigerator, heat pump or air conditioner works by taking advantage of the chemical characteristics of the change in state of the refrigerant from liquid to gas and back again. Any gas will heat up when put under pressure, and, when it loses pressure, it will cool down. When the gas changes into a liquid, a relatively large quantity of heat is released. Using this characteristic, heat pumps use compressors and expansion valves to move or "pump" heat from one place to another, e.g. from the outside air to the inside air. A geothermal heat pump moves the heat from ground water to water circulating inside the building which is then used to heat the spaces. For more complete (and undoubtedly more lucid) description of this see any basic textbook on HVAC or Environental Controls. There are many installations of residential heat pumps around the country with mixed results. There are beginning to be a number of residential geothermal systems installed as well. Much depends on the soil conditions at the site. Is it safe? Well, air conditioners have been around for 60-70 years and we only recently learned that the refrigerants used for all those years were not so safe. However, we use geothermal heat pump systems whenever the soils and building type are suitable. OIKOS has a nice bookmark for geothermal web sites, including this one for the Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium: http://www.ghpc.org/ -Muscoe Martin, AIA Susan Maxman Architects 123 S. 22nd Street Philadelphia, PA 19103 USA smarch@compuserve.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 1 12:57:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA17453 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:57:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA23940 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:52:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18353; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:48:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:44:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18136 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:44:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com ([207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18132 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:44:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA12944; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 09:41:05 -0800 Message-ID: <345B69FD.D4ABB90@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 09:42:21 -0800 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: freeze/thaw and foam X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 377 Our engineer came to give approvals on a eps foam core wall design we had just completed and he brought up some concerns (from an NRC report? he thought) on freeze thaw effects on eps. He mentioned a substantial drop in R value. I had imagined some loss due to moisture retention but thought this was a minimal concern compared to other materials. I also now have a concern about deterioration i.e. overall longevity. We are using the material as a continuous core bonded to a light skeleton of 2x and 1x. We are relying on the continuous bonded core partly for some added lateral stability in the structure and wonder if thermal effects could compromise this over time. Is anyone aware of any new thoughts on this material. Thanks John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 1 13:04:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA17505 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 13:04:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25493 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:58:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18690; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:55:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:51:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18444 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:50:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com ([207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18440 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:50:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA13034; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 09:47:10 -0800 Message-ID: <345B6B99.F0E3952F@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 09:49:13 -0800 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: muscoe CC: "David F. Lambertson" , "[unknown]" Subject: Re: GBlist: Geothermal based pressurized antifreeze X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199711011208_MC2-2657-EF18@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 378 muscoe wrote: > > conditions > at the site. Is it safe? Well, air conditioners have been around for > 60-70 years and we only recently learned that the refrigerants used > for all > those years were not so safe. However, we use geothermal heat pump > systems > whenever the soils and building type are suitable. > I'm still curious about how many applications of geothermal have been compromised by excessive ground heat loss. I know the idea is that recovery can be aided in the cooling process but the net loss still seems like it could be serious over time. I have a rather science fiction image of the earth slowly being sucked of its warmth. Yeech John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 1 16:08:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA19343 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:08:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA11185 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 16:03:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22496; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:59:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:55:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA22230 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:55:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22216 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:55:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.25.64.201] (usr2a5.rut.sover.net [206.25.64.201]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA24560 for ; Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:58:30 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:33:12 -0500 To: Greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: bamboo flooring Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 379 I'd like to thank everyone who responded to my request for leads on bamboo flooring. I managed to contact eight companies for my article in the forthcoming (November) issue of EBN. In a nutshell, I found that all the companies except Bamboo Hardwoods are importing material that is manufactured in China by companies owned by Chinese or other SE Asia firms. That means that these importers have little or control over the environmental factors concerning harvesting and manufacturing practices, and some of them are overtly concerned about the fact that environmental practices in China may not stand up to North American standards. Concerns about depletion of the bamboo resource do not seem be well-founded, however. (The Pandas live on a different variety of bamboo, in a different region.) Bamboo Hardwoods does own their own factory in Vietnam, and seems to be very aware and proactive on environmental issues. They are not very organized or coordinated as a supplier, however. Nadav Malin Environmental Building News 802 257 7300 In case anyone here is interested, here's the list: Dan Smith Smith & Fong Company 2121 Bryant Street Suite 203 San Francisco, CA 94110 415/285-4889, 415/285-8230 (fax) Doug Lewis Bamboo Hardwoods Manufacturing Co. PO Box 20069 Seattle, WA 99102 206/223-0658, 206/223-0659 (fax) Bamboo Flooring International Corp 20120 Paseo Del Prado Suite E Walnut, CA 91789 800/827-9261, 909/594-6938 (fax) sales@bamboo-flooring.com (e-mail) Ron Abbasi Amati Bambu Ltd 350 Steelcase Road W Markham, ON L3R 1B3 Canada 905/477-8899, 905/477-5208 (fax) Keith Bow K&M Bamboo Products, Inc 63 Silver Star Blvd, Unit E2 Scarborough, ON M1V 5E5 Canada 416/297-5465, 416/299-7219 (fax) Francois Miton Mintec Corp 100 E Pennsylvania Ave Towson, MD 21286 888/9MINTEC, 410/296-6693 (fax) mintec@clark.net (e-mail) William Potalivo Floorworks 115 Dupont Street Toronto, ON M5R 1V4 Canada 416/961-6891, 416/961-3881 (fax) Ron Caso Plyboo America, Inc 745 Chestnut Ridge Road Kirkville, NY 13082 315/687-3270, 315/687-5177 (fax) plyboo@aol.com (e-mail) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 2 08:12:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA00442 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:12:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA17729 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:07:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08434; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:03:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:58:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA08182 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:58:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA08178 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 07:58:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA72056; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:00:25 -0700 Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 06:00:24 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: EPS freeze/thaw problem references? In-Reply-To: <345B69FD.D4ABB90@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 380 If any one has references to concerns of the above as noted below, I would be very interested. We have not seen any problems in older projects to confirm the heresay of below, so far. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, John Salmen wrote: > > Our engineer came to give approvals on a eps foam core wall design we > had just completed and he brought up some concerns (from an NRC report? > he thought) on freeze thaw effects on eps. He mentioned a substantial > drop in R value. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 2 11:47:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03359 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:47:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA26549 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:41:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12896; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:38:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:33:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12490 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:33:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12482 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5.carleton.ca [134.117.136.25]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA14092; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:36:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id LAA13295; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:36:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 11:36:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711021636.LAA13295@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: Geothermal-based pressurised antifreeze Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 381 on Sat, 01 Nov 1997 John Salmen wrote: > I'm still curious about how many applications of geothermal > have been compromised by excessive ground heat loss. > I have a rather science fiction image of the earth slowly > being sucked of its warmth. Hello John; Perhaps this will bring about that day "When Hell freezes over" just a little closer ? If so, many of us are going to finally get some much-longed-for goods and services. A problem that seems to be prevalent with ground-source heat pumps (open-loop type ...ie draws/dumps heat from/to well water, two wells needed, one for supply and one for discharge) in this neighbourhood is that the heat exchangers fail at around the five-year mark, with replacement cost being in the neighbourhood of $2k +. Specifically the problem seems to be caused by a galvanic reaction between dissimilar metals, causing premature deterioration. I don't know if the new ones have solved this problem. The closed-loop variety, using glycol as the heat exchange medium don't seem to be as popular around here, some citing environmental concerns (ie glycol leaking into the groundwater). -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 2 12:39:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA04094 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:39:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA08672 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:34:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13997; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:28:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:24:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13700 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:23:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com ([207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13696 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 12:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA04318; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 09:20:11 -0800 Message-ID: <345CB6C0.2F574FF5@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 09:22:08 -0800 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: EPS freeze/thaw problem references? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 382 A little additional hearsay or is it heresy. I came upon a reference that talked about shrinkage in the foam at low temperatures as the foam ages. Foam density seems to be a factor. No real info. on amount of shrinkage or loss of insulative value. There also seems to be quite a number of papers listed at IRC on long term performance of cellular plastics. Is anyone familiar with any of these NRC publications and could refer me to a specific publication that would be useful. Thanks John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > If any one has references to concerns of the above as noted below, I > would > be very interested. We have not seen any problems in older projects to > confirm the heresay of below, so far. > _________________________________________________________ > Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office > buildings > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and > office > Web Site [under construction]: > http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > _____________________________________________________ > On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, John Salmen wrote: > > > > Our engineer came to give approvals on a eps foam core wall design > we > > had just completed and he brought up some concerns (from an NRC > report? > > he thought) on freeze thaw effects on eps. He mentioned a > substantial > > drop in R value. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 2 16:15:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA05282 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:15:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA28591 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:10:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA19741; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:06:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:02:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA19459 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:02:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19455 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:02:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.19] (mke-1-3.binc.net [208.142.229.19]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA56464; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 15:05:43 -0600 Message-Id: <199711022105.PAA56464@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: freeze/thaw and foam Date: Sun, 2 Nov 97 15:15:19 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "John Salmen" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 383 John, Are you sure the report was about eps? All the research I've read shows that the R-value for eps show that it is quite stable as temp drops. And that eps has a low water perm rate. Other foams, such as polyicocyanurate, have been problematic in this area. The eps I use is warrantied for life against the type of problems you speak of. Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 2 17:59:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA06678 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:59:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA22739 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:54:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22314; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:50:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:46:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA22056 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:46:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA22052 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:46:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (ppp14.topher.net [206.136.138.173]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA04128; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:40:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:40:43 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711022240.QAA04128@mail.topher.net> X-Sender: ewestbrook@mail.topher.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca From: Elena Westbrook Subject: Re: GBlist: re: Geothermal-based pressurised antifreeze Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 384 > >The closed-loop variety, using glycol as the heat exchange medium >don't seem to be as popular around here, some citing >environmental concerns (ie glycol leaking into the groundwater). Ours uses propylene glycol, which is an FDA-approved food additive (for whatever that's worth) instead of the toxic ethylene glycol. Do you have any data supporting environmental damage from propylene glycol? (I only have information on toxicity; there could be other interactions with soil, I suppose.) Regarding accumulated heat loss (or gain, in Dallas) from increasing use of geothermal heat pumps, I'm not too worried. Ever calculate the mass of the Earth's crust? There might be a local effect within about a 10-foot radius of the wells. (Based on the fact that wells are spaced 10' apart, which I presume was designed to prevent overlapping zones of influence.) Maybe this winter I'll poke around our yard with a soil thermometer and see if I can tell a difference. Someone on our tour at the recent National Tour of Solar Homes asked the same question about accumulating temperature changes in the soil, though. Does anyone know whether this question has ever been researched? ---Elena Westbrook, ELS WordWright Communications EWestbrook@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 2 18:57:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA07035 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:57:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA05714 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:52:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA23714; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:48:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:43:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA23421 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:43:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com ([207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA23415 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:43:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA08716; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 15:39:47 -0800 Message-ID: <345D0FB6.15AF6983@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 15:41:42 -0800 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elena Westbrook CC: be417@freenet.carleton.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: re: Geothermal-based pressurised antifreeze X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199711022240.QAA04128@mail.topher.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 385 Elena Westbrook wrote: > > > > > Someone on our tour at the recent National Tour of Solar Homes asked > the > same question about accumulating temperature changes in the soil, > though. > Does anyone know whether this question has ever been researched? > I don't know - what prompted my original question was a story about a project in germany where cumulative heat loss was substantial enough to have to reverse the process. I think the runs were horizontal ground loops but I remember little of the story. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 2 19:22:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA07182 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:22:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA11282 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:17:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24440; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:13:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:09:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA24176 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:09:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com ([207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24172 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:09:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA09054; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:05:56 -0800 Message-ID: <345D15D8.A721F8D4@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 16:07:52 -0800 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris & Ruth Koehn CC: GB List Subject: Re: GBlist: freeze/thaw and foam X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199711022105.PAA56464@glacier.binc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 386 Hi Chris, No I am not sure the report was based on eps. The only reference I have found to date is for polyicocyanurate so that might be the case. The foam I have been using I have been using is a pentane expanded foam(Plastispan) which rates water absorption as 6,4,2 %by vol. and perm as 4.3,3.5,1 (that ng/pa.s.m.) for types 1,2,3 respect. Thermal value tests are only given at 24C. What aspects of deterioration does the warranty address? John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Chris & Ruth Koehn wrote: > > John, > Are you sure the report was about eps? All the research I've read > shows > that the R-value for eps show that it is quite stable as temp drops. > And > that eps has a low water perm rate > > Other foams, such as polyicocyanurate, have been problematic in this > area. The eps I use is warrantied for life against the type of > problems > you speak of. > > Chris Koehn > Top Ridge > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 2 20:00:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA07365 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:00:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA19540 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:54:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25291; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:50:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:46:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA25036 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:45:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25026; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:45:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.99.202]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 549-35819U10000L100S0) with ESMTP id AAA17559; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 01:02:58 +0000 Message-ID: <345D1F1F.943A66DC@which.net> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 00:47:28 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: kschwan@bright.net, ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: EEBA-L: hydronic heating (routed inquiry) (fwd) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 387 Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: (burning) Wood does not increase the net CO2 to the greenhouse effect. I wonder why you say that? I thought burning any fuel contributed CO2 to the atmoshere. Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 2 20:49:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA07780 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:49:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA29789 for ; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:44:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA26840; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:40:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:34:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA26286 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:34:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com ([207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA26274; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 20:34:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA10158; Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:30:06 -0800 Message-ID: <345D2990.219AF20A@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 17:32:00 -0800 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: malcolm.scott@which.net CC: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , kschwan@bright.net, ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: EEBA-L: hydronic heating (routed inquiry) (fwd) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <345D1F1F.943A66DC@which.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 388 It would by decomposition generate an equivalent amount as apposed to fuels that are to some degree locked into the earth The question would be amount over time I guess and we have yet to experience much of the effects of the previous generation. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: > > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > (burning) Wood does not increase the net CO2 to the greenhouse effect. > > I wonder why you say that? I thought burning any fuel contributed > CO2 > to the atmoshere. > > Malcolm Scott > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 3 08:42:47 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA20925 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:42:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA09985 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:37:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12345; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:33:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:29:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12053 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:29:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12049 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:28:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA09322 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:32:27 -0500 Message-id: <1233817@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 03 Nov 97 08:37:32 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: OSB To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 389 --- You wrote: I'm curious to know more about the problem Marc experienced with the SIP's. Were they stored horizontally unprotected for an extended period of time? --- end of quoted material --- They were tarped in a horizontal position, in place on the 8x12 addition I was building. It was my fault that the gale winds and driving rainstorms we had here in early summer '96 drenched these panels - they certainly "shouldn't" have gotten wet (what can you expect from an owner-builder, eh?). However, having worked in this biz for almost 20 years, i know murphy is around on lots of jobsites. I paid attention to the moisture content, most builders would bury the wet panels in the building without a second thought. Future Mold of America... BTW - I also learned another perhaps obvious thing - that EPS is very pervious to water! The water dripped all the way through the SIPs. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 3 09:02:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA21150 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:02:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA13752 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:57:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13769; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:53:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:49:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA13236 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:49:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13224; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:49:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA64106; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:51:06 -0700 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 06:51:05 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "malcolm.scott@which.net" Cc: kschwan@bright.net, ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: CO2 released by wood burning In-Reply-To: <199711030220.VAA27847@solstice.crest.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 390 Malcolm: Further to the question of below, the CO2 that is released during burning was the CO2 absorbed during its lifetime and would be the amount released during decomposition, if allowed to rot naturally. Burning releases that same CO2 just earlier, that is all. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: > > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > (burning) Wood does not increase the net CO2 to the greenhouse effect. > > I wonder why you say that? I thought burning any fuel contributed CO2 > to the atmoshere. > > Malcolm Scott > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 3 10:04:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21810 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:04:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA26475 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:59:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15953; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:55:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:51:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15647 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:50:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15643 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:50:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.24]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 1.52) id 6203200 ; Mon, 03 Nov 1997 09:55:36 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971103215312.0069c2f8@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 21:53:12 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Ground Source Heat Pumps & Environmental Impacts In-Reply-To: <199711030700.CAA05327@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 391 One issue I have not seen raised in the discussion of ground source heat pumps (GSHP) is their environmental impacts in terms of more global issues. A local commercial project had selected ground source heat pumps for their HVAC. Based on a computer simulation of the building we recommended natural gas heat pumps (NGHP) instead. Not only were the NGHP less costly to operate, on direct environmental impacts they performed better as well. The NGHP produce 34% less CO2, 72% less SO2, 65% less NOx, and 71% lower particulates. These figures take into account the differences in efficiency, and the fact that the NGHP ended up using more site energy (BTUs) but less source energy. The pollution prevention figures were based on EPA regional averages (which are very close to my local utility averages). These percentages will vary a great deal depending upon the utility. For example, if you utility is heavily into nukes then the CO2 figures are far less for the GSHP. Check out these figures in your location the next time you are considering a GSHP project, is it really the environmental choice? ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 3 10:47:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00700 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:47:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA01469 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:41:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18210; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:38:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:33:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17472 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:33:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17462 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:33:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dial-89-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.89]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA06210; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:36:49 -0500 Message-ID: <345DEF90.3464@together.net> Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 10:36:48 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Marcus Sheffer Subject: Re: GBlist: Ground Source Heat Pumps & Environmental Impacts References: <3.0.3.32.19971103215312.0069c2f8@cyberia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 392 Marcus: The last sentence of your comments caught my eye: "the next time you are considering a GSHP project, is it really the environmental choice?" Two comments are my contribution to this discussion: Economy: In Northern Vermont, these are being pushed by the utilities... they sell lots of Kwh. However, the results of my modeling simulations comparing Geothermal Heat Pumps indicate they cost more to install and more to operate than other HVAC systems. I have analyzed regular commercial office buildings, schools and Labs. Note the units do well in Summer, but our Winter 8000+ degree days impose high operating costs with the expensive electric rates here in Winter. In fact, even conventional integrated water source heat pumps, using the standard cooling tower and HW boiler, cost 50% more per annum to operate and impose 33% greater peak Summer electric demand. Yet, these are very popular "spec" office building systems...... they are easy to design and cheap to install. Thermal Earth Mass: Conversation to date has dwelled on long term impacts of heat extraction. We must remember that heat pumps are dual mode and of course add heat to the Earth mass in cooling season. I have often wondered about the possible beenefits of seasonal thermal mass effect of extracting heat in Winter and adding heat in Summer. Tom Anderson Marcus Sheffer wrote: > > One issue I have not seen raised in the discussion of ground source heat > pumps (GSHP) is their environmental impacts in terms of more global issues. > A local commercial project had selected ground source heat pumps for their > HVAC. Based on a computer simulation of the building we recommended > natural gas heat pumps (NGHP) instead. Not only were the NGHP less costly > to operate, on direct environmental impacts they performed better as well. > The NGHP produce 34% less CO2, 72% less SO2, 65% less NOx, and 71% lower > particulates. These figures take into account the differences in > efficiency, and the fact that the NGHP ended up using more site energy > (BTUs) but less source energy. The pollution prevention figures were based > on EPA regional averages (which are very close to my local utility > averages). These percentages will vary a great deal depending upon the > utility. For example, if you utility is heavily into nukes then the CO2 > figures are far less for the GSHP. Check out these figures in your > location the next time you are considering a GSHP project, is it really the > environmental choice? > > ===================================================================== > Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services > Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 > 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 > Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com > ===================================================================== > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 3 11:54:54 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA01450 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:54:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA19714 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:49:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22883; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:45:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:41:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22288 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:41:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22276 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:41:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA17597; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:44:10 -0500 Message-id: <1236226@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 03 Nov 97 11:49:15 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Ecovillage at Ithaca report To: Susincom@auctoris.com Cc: marykraus@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 393 Eco-village at Ithaca visit overview, from Marc Rosenbaum Visiting EVI was a great experience for me. They have gone farther than any cohousing group I have seen in their overall commitment to environmental responsibility. They've included most of the critical issues: * Their vision includes 5 cohousing neighborhoods, a scale that will more likely support ecological waste treatment and public transportation to downtown destinations. * They turned down free land 10 miles from downtown Ithaca in order to purchase land that was as close as possible (~2-1/2 miles) to reduce the auto mileage dramatically. They estimate that the present value of 30 year transportation savings of one 30 unit neighborhood to be over $350,000! * They looked for agricultural land, and a community supported agriculture farm is up and running on the property. It has been a significant source of food for common meals as well as fulfilling the private CSA subscriptions. The Common House includes a root cellar. * The First Neighborhood is built, and it is tightly clustered to preserve land, save infrastructure costs, and promote community interaction. It is by far the most tightly clustered cohousing development I have seen in the east, composed of a series of duplexes (to avoid the more stringent code requirements of multi-family housing) within five or six feet of one another, laid out in two parallel lines running east-west. The orientation is not strictly linear, which contributes to a lively, kinetic quality to the enclosed space. * Clusters of six to eight units share an Energy Center, where the gas boilers are located, and a central distribution system for heat and hot water. This system has had some start-up difficulties but overall is working adequately. This concept makes it possible to convert much more easily to a renewably-based fuel such as biomass. Reducing the number of gas meters reduces monthly utility costs. A simple metering system based on zone valve operating time was chosen. * Healthy indoor environments were a priority, and materials were chosen accordingly. There is no combustion within any unit, and all units have central fresh air ventilation. * Fluorescent lighting has been used throughout the homes. * The Common House has a wing which was privately funded which contains eight or nine rooms which are used for resident-based home businesses, thereby reducing the commuting miles even further. * The Common House has a shared laundry which has two of the new Maytag Neptune horizontal axis washers - quiet, and water and energy efficient. * The homes are well-insulated and moderately airtight, and use high quality Canadian fiberglass windows. * Graywater has been piped spearately for future recovery of nutrients and/or heat. * The crawlspaces are connected by large diameter sewer pipe, to enable simple distribution of heat piping, water, and electricity. This also enables future wiring to be done simply. Things I might change to improve the community: * They tout the homes as being passive solar, but there is too much glazing and no thermal mass, and this design has contributed to the comfort issues. * The homes have five levels (23 stair risers) and are very vertical, and the verticality is exaggerated by towers at the Energy Centers. The aesthetic gets very mixed reviews and the homes are also not user-friendly to people with physical disabilities. * Some residents don't like the Common House being located at the end of the rows of homes, due to the distance they need to walk to get to the laundry, etc. This informs other site designs I have seen, in which the Common House is centrally located, but due to the much greater spacing between units, will be farther from the outermost units. * I would build better building envelopes and spend somewhat less on the heating system. I would particularly specify better glazing - they bought very good windows and then didn't spend the very small marginal amount to upgrade from clear triple glazing to triple glazing with low emissivity glass and argon gas fill. * I would approach the heating system design somewhat differently, although this is made with the benefit of hindsight! * The fluorescent fixtures should all have electronic ballasts. * The massing could be simpler, saving construction dollars that could be re-invested in places such as better envelope. * The homes are on crawl spaces with a rat slab. The marginal cost of a full basement would be nominal and would provide expansion and storage space. All in all, I think it is a terrific job that we all can learn from! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 3 12:45:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA01999 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:45:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA03741 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:40:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25762; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:31:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA25342 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:31:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (bentnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.14.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25329 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:30:44 -0500 (EST) From: liverjx@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 85256544.00605CD2 ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:32:32 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <85256544.005C9C8D.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:34:40 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Ground Source Heat Pumps & Environmental Impacts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 394 EPA's publication "Space Conditioning: The Next Frontier" is an excellent source of empirical information on the relative emissions from different types of HVAC systems. One of the advantages of Geothermal Heat Pumps (GHP's), as stated in this document, is that they are "clearly the lowest emitter of CO2...and NOx" for most electricity generation fuel scenerios. The authors go on to say that "...if considerations about CO2 emissions were to drive decisions about the most advantageous use of natural gas, one might prefer that it be used in advanced natural gas combined cycle generating plants powering the most advanced electric space conditioning equipment, rather than used in advance natural gas end-use equipment." Incidently, many electric utilities offer financial incentives for GHP installations, to offset the incremental costs over a high-efficiency fossil fuel system with air conditioning. GHP's do tend to cost more initially to install, however, with the available incentives, lower associated CO2 and NOx emissions, increased longevity of the equipment, and the utilization of a renewable resource, many customers are finding that GHP's best fit their needs. One advantage that Gas-fired heat pumps do have over other space conditioning systems is their lower emissions of SO2. There are other considerations however that may perhaps make gas-fired heat pumps a less attractive option. For example, we have a project that we're working on with the local gas company where they have backed out of donating a gas-fired heat pump due to serious concerns over the reliability and noise of the unit. John Livermore Energy Crafted Home Coordinator Western Massachusetts Electric Co. Energy Crafted Homes: Someday ALL Homes Will Be Built This Way! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 3 13:08:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA02220 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA10338 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:03:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27008; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:59:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:55:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26701 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:55:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26684 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:54:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from kuts9p05.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA19261; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:58:22 -0600 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971103180036.006cd4b0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 12:00:36 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: green sticking Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 395 Relevant to building our SIP cabin on short piers vice an Alaska method, are there any comments out there? It has been suggested gravel not be placed in pier hole because it will allow water to stand there. Makes sense. What about the idea of placing dirt around the short pier with gravel outside that? I have heard of another method called I think, "green sticking", where a shallow (foot-18 inches) trench is dug, a pressure treated log placed in the bottom with vertical poles placed where needed for the load points, all filled with gravel and drain installed ouside of trench. Done in upper elevations in Colorado I am told. Any comments on this? Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 3 14:42:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA03521 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:42:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA09891 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:37:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00819; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:28:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA00262 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00257; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:28:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA123864; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:29:38 -0700 Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:29:37 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Robert W. Tom" Cc: strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: CO2 released by wood burning In-Reply-To: <199711031657.LAA00728@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 396 Rob: Thanks for your head-scratching/denting skit, but sorry I average one chord per year not 40! Or, put another way, those 40 chords should be able to provide back-up heating for about 35-40 of our houses with our conserver lifestyle in our heating climate (10,000 HDD). If you want to know the exact greenhouse gas emissions resulting from that chord, it is all written in 2 recently presented papers. In case you are interested, we emit about 25% of the greenhouse gases by burning wood that any of our neighbours do burning natural gas in their suburban plastic houses. Jorg _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Robert W. Tom wrote: > > on Mon Nov 3 1997 > jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca ("Jorg D. Ostrowski") wrote: > > >> (burning) Wood does not increase the net CO2 to the > >> greenhouse effect. > > > CO2 released during burning was the CO2 absorbed during its > > lifetime and would be the amount released during > > decomposition, if allowed to rot naturally. Burning > > releases that same CO2 just earlier, that is all. > > Hello Jorg and all; > > Let's look at this another way. > > Let's say that we have 40 full cords of nice, hard maple > suspended in the air over Jorg's head from a mass-less sky-hook. > > If we deposit that wood on Jorg's head, one toothpick at a time, > it probably won't hurt him one bit. > > If we dropped the whole schmozzle all at once, Jorg'd be walking > around looking like a pancake (if he were a cartoon character)... > or more likely, he'd be dead if he's a Real Person. > > Net accumulation of the wood is the same in both cases, only the > dosage is varied. > > Perhaps the same may be said for the issue of CO2 emissions as a > result of woodburning; that it is the dosage rather than net > accumulation that is the determining factor as to whether the > effect is harmful or not ? > > -- > Rob Tom (who is a wood-burner) > ---------- * ------------ > be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca > Kanata, Ontario, Canada > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 3 15:33:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA04156 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:33:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA25837 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:28:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03404; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:24:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:20:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA03007 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:20:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout02.mail.aol.com (emout02.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.93]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA03000 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:20:19 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA07004; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:23:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:23:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971103152007_-1307348669@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: NAHB, wraps and OSB Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 397 In a message dated 11/1/97 1:57:45 PM, you wrote: <> Hi, Thanks for chiming in. I attended a recent symposium Joe held with Gus Handegord in Mass. He said that he recommends an equalized pressure rainscreen in areas that get a certain amount of rain (like over 30 inches is my recollection). He has some climatic maps showing what kind of rain protection detailing he recommends in which parts of the country in all of the builder field guide books (like from EEBA). While he freely admits he is making his best guess with these maps, I have found Joe's guesses to be pretty good. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 3 22:46:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA08213 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:46:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA23909 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:17:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA23809; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:13:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:09:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA23482 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:09:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin38.mail.aol.com (mrin38.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA23478 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:09:39 -0500 (EST) From: DAEly@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin38.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA18951 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:12:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:12:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971103220115_2116560283@mrin38> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: wraps Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 398 Hi All -- I'm fairly new to this list but feel compelled to jump in on the issue of wraps, surfactants, rain screens, etc, etc. A friend of mine is experiencing deterioration of cedar clapboards and the outer OSB layer of stressed skin panels due to trapped moisture. In this particular instance the builder applied the claps without a wrap. I have discussed with the owner removing the claps and adding furring to form a rain screen (WITH wrap). One concern I have (in theory) is fire safety. For the furring to work it must have ventillation, and if there is ventillation between flamable surfaces there is the possibility for fire to travel. Does anybody have any experience with this? I was also wondering if there are species of wood which don't have surfactants in them. There is a local manufacturer of clear, quarter-sawn claps of spruce. They are primed all sides, and quite nice (although short). They have been used in New England for hundreds of years, they come from managed forests not from old growth forests, and they aren't shipped thousands of miles. I have seen 100-plus year old applications of spruce and pine directly over board siding, and the wood looks great. David Ely, Architect ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 3 22:50:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA08296 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:50:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA01113 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:44:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24701; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:41:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:37:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA24378 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:37:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24373 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 22:37:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA22077 for ; Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:40:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-43.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.171) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma016850; Mon Nov 3 21:08:57 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971103220819.0069e2b4@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: eeb98ord@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 22:08:22 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion Howard (EEBA)" Subject: GBlist: Net Carbon emissions issue & biomass Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 399 malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: > >> Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: >> (burning) Wood does not increase the net CO2 to the greenhouse effect. >> > I wonder why you say that? I thought burning any fuel contributed > CO2 to the atmoshere. > > Malcolm Scott > -------------------------- This question is actually interesting and raises a finer point. "Net" is key to this discussion. As far as gross (alleged by some) climate altering gaseous emissions due to human activities, it is the large scale combustion of fossil fuels such as coal and oil / derivitives (gasoline, fuel oils, kero, jet...) that releases > sequestered < CO2, and other organics into the atmosphere. This carbon load was put "underground" 75 to 375 million years ago (you geologists out there correct this range if its too far off) when massive carboniferous forests and biomass of huge creatures (dinosaurs, etc.) were abundant. The earth's climate was then very much a greenhouse and with no humans around to slash and burn everything vegetative, it formed under sediments, the mass what we are now mining as coal, oil and gas. Some petro deposits theoretically may have come from comets and asteroids colliding with earth, but this is as yet unproven. During this period of ~300 million years, CO2 levels ranged from 10x to 100 times current levels. Data shows that much of this concentration was related to volcanic activity (Gribben, p 108). Anyway, the carbon emissions from wood/biomass burning of short time-scale [[20 to 400 years depending on source of timber from which the fuel-wood was obtained]] are still part of the atmospheric carbon / hydrological cycle since this biomass has not been sequestered. Biologically, many plant species are enjoying a CO2 rich atmosphere (which does not make what we are doing to it OK...) and "CO2 limited" crops may grow slightly higher yields. However, the importance of replacing combustion of _sequestered_ carbon forms, with biomass (in the "current inventory" of atmospheric carbon -- remember the human -v- geological time scale here...) and other renewable energy forms is IMPORTANT, since it avoids a _net_ increase in CO2 concentration in the atmosphere. Right now, biomas burning is of the same order of magnitude/ yr as fossil fuel and industrial energy related sources of emmissions (IPCC, 1991) but this does not recognize the fact that the petro-combustion represents in essense a NEW source of CO2 to the atmosphere it has not see for ~ over 80 million years. References: 1. Gribben, J. 1978 "Climate Change." Cambridge Press. (published during a time when climatologists had been more concerned about the onset of another ice age.) 2. IPCC Response Strategies Working Group Reports, 1991, pg. 20 (emissions of climate change pollutants) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact: Bion Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology bhoward2@sprynet.com Web: ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 4 07:27:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA11860 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:27:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA26240 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:21:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA04757; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:17:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:13:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA04521 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:13:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA04516 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:13:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.104.44] (usrts1port44.port.net [207.237.104.44]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA17346 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:16:43 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711041216.HAA17346@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: GBlist: Design solution Date: Tue, 4 Nov 97 07:17:03 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Clarence Dodge To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 400 I have a piece of rural property at 44 1/2* latitude upon which I wish to build a personal residence. The challenge of the site is that the views are to the NNE, just over the crest of a hill to the SW, but on fairly level ground. My query to you all for leads to design solutions on such a site in a manner which maximizes solar gain from the south and views to the more or less north. I guess the meat of the problem is how does one protect (read insulate) the building to the north and at the same time make views available from the same direction. By leads I mean any projects anyone has come across in print or on the web or thru personal experience which have similar design constraints. I am not asking for a free design consult ( unless someone is willing to give one) I realize this is the stuff that butters much of your bread. Anyway, thanks in advance for whatever info is beamed back to me. Best regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 4 07:45:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA11980 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:45:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA28995 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:40:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA05362; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:32:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA05071 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:32:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA05067 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:32:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA26240 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:35:52 -0500 Message-id: <1245369@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 04 Nov 97 07:40:59 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Design solution To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 401 I consulted to an architect who wanted to build an underground house facing the killer view north. I recommended state-of-the-art glass - such as triple - low-e (2 low-e layers) and argon fill, or Southwall Technologies' Superglass, which is 2 layers of low-e plastic film between two outer layers of glass, and krypton gas fill. Get a warm edge spacer with either product. Use the glass in as large pieces as possible, to reduce the increased losses at the edge. This glass can have a center R value of 8-10, and it works amazingly well. Of course, you don't need a huge window wall to take advantage of the view, but then this gets into aesthetics, where engineers fear to tread. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 4 09:53:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA13079 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:53:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA25329 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:48:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08834; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:44:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:40:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA08532 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:40:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08526 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:40:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA09387; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 06:36:34 -0800 Message-ID: <345F3378.6BAB12ED@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 06:38:48 -0800 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: green sticking X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <1.5.4.32.19971103180036.006cd4b0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 402 Hi Sacie The beauty of conc. piers is that they are elegant unobtrusive little things that don't disrupt groundwater flow, change contours, and are easy to adjust if there is uneven settlement between piers. I worked moving a couple of log cabins that were on log foundations when I was a kid (in Ontario). Old growth cedar logs probably comparable to a second growth pressure treated pole. The only positive thing I can say about them is that it is nice (in a Thoreau sense) to see a building system that decontsructs completely over time. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. David F. Lambertson wrote: > > Relevant to building our SIP cabin on short piers vice an Alaska > method, are > there any comments out there? It has been suggested gravel not be > placed > in pier hole because it will allow water to stand there. Makes sense. > What > about the idea of placing dirt around the short pier with gravel > outside that? > > I have heard of another method called I think, "green sticking", > where a > shallow (foot-18 inches) trench is dug, a pressure treated log placed > in the > bottom with vertical poles placed where needed for the load points, > all > filled with gravel and drain installed ouside of trench. Done in > upper > elevations in Colorado I am told. Any comments on this? > Sacie Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 4 11:44:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA14517 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:44:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA26137 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:39:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14462; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:35:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:31:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14157 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:31:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from sparticus.eurekanet.com (root@sparticus.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14153 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:31:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (port-02-06.athens.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.136]) by sparticus.eurekanet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA21727; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:44:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711041644.LAA21727@sparticus.eurekanet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Catherine M. Muller" Organization: National Center for Appropriate Technology To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:42:53 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: NAHB, wraps and OSB Reply-to: cmuller@ncat.org CC: Helen Perrine , betsy@buildingscience.com In-reply-to: <971103152007_-1307348669@emout02.mail.aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 403 JoeLstiberuk and Betsy Pettit's company, Building Science Corp., publishes a number of "Builder's Guides" for different climates. I have the cold and the mixed climate versions. I also have a copy of the EEBA guide for cold climates, which appears to be the same book under different cover. In all of these, Appendix I is "Rain and Drainage Planes". The climate maps Terry refers to are included, as is detailed discussion of what type of system and materials to use in various situations. You can contact EEBA or Building Science Corp. for copies, I suppose. I don't have contact info for EEBA (Bion, are you out there?), but the info for Building Science is: 70 Main Street Westford, MA 01886 508/589-5100 (BTW, this appendix was published in the Affordable Comfort Conference's "Selected Readings" last year, too) > From: TBren46501@aol.com > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:23:11 -0500 (EST) > To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: Re: GBlist: NAHB, wraps and OSB > > In a message dated 11/1/97 1:57:45 PM, you wrote: > > < advocates using asphalt impregnated felt instead of housewraps, and that > all siding be placed on a rainscreen (furring strip) to equalize air > pressure on either side of the siding. Do others out there know if this is > correct?>> > > Hi, > > Thanks for chiming in. I attended a recent symposium Joe held with Gus > Handegord in Mass. He said that he recommends an equalized pressure > rainscreen in areas that get a certain amount of rain (like over 30 inches is > my recollection). He has some climatic maps showing what kind of rain > protection detailing he recommends in which parts of the country in all of > the builder field guide books (like from EEBA). While he freely admits he is > making his best guess with these maps, I have found Joe's guesses to be > pretty good. - Terry > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > Catherine M. Muller Project Coordinator, Multi-family Services National Center for Appropriate Technology 16 Spring Street, Glouster, Ohio 45732 cmuller@ncat.org 614/767-9000 (phone); 614/767-9033 (fax) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 4 11:51:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA14594 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:51:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27992 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:45:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14889; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:37:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14544 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:37:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.k12.vt.us (pop.k12.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14538 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:37:44 -0500 (EST) From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Received: from VDHVAX ([159.105.135.2]) by pop.k12.vt.us (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-12124) with SMTP id AAA223 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:52:43 -0500 Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:39:51 -0500 Message-Id: <97110411395163@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: precast concrete foundations X-VMS-To: SMTP%"greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 404 Does anyone have any experience/comments on working with precast (and often insulated) concrete wall systems? I am interested in using them in my personal residence. I have yet to do more than back of the envelope cost comparisons, but I'm intrigued for the following reasons: * 5,000 psi (or higher) concrete which is much more water-resistant than the typical 3,000-4,000 psi poured concrete. * Uses about 50% of the concrete of poured walled (but does use re-bar) * Quick. Can be put on in a half day. Ready to deck (and finish). Also looking for comments on related point: Although some jurisdication don't require dampproofing with pre-cast panels because of their water resistance, I plan to do it anyway. I have not yet had the opportunity to use some of the new membrane systems, such as Platon, and would appreciate input. I like the idea and think it may help to reduce hydrostatic pressure which would tend to drive water in. (I imagine there will always be a pathway, precast or not.) Any thoughts? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 4 14:56:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA19215 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA21023 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:51:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23361; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:47:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:41:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22986 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:41:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV (dcsmtp.wictok7.epa.gov [161.80.160.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22975 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:41:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 04 Nov 1997 14:23:18 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 14:20:02 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT To: greenbuilding@crest.org, be417@freenet.carleton.ca, ewestbrook@topher.net Subject: Re: GBlist: re: Geothermal-based pressurised antifreeze -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 405 Responses below preceded by ==== >>> Elena Westbrook 11/02/97 05:40pm >>> Do you have any data supporting environmental damage from propylene glycol? (I only have information on toxicity; there could be other interactions with soil, I suppose.) =====ASHRAE has recently released a report called "Assessment of Anti-Freeze Solutions for Ground-Source Heat Pump Systems" (Report 908RP). The Executive Summary is available for free from the Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium, as is the full report--but it's pretty fat. (info@ghpc.org). EPA has also recently published two documents: "A Short Primer and Environmental Guidance for Geothermal Heat Pumps" and a longer more technical version targeted at installers and regulators called "Manual on Environmental Issues Related to Geothermal Heat Pumps." Both are available by calling the EPA ENERGY STAR hotline at 1-888-782-7937. (You may also order the EPA report "Space Conditioning: The Next Frontier" through this number. It is a 1993 analysis that compares heating and cooling systems for residential applications in several climates) ________________ Regarding accumulated heat loss (or gain, in Dallas) from increasing use of geothermal heat pumps, I'm not too worried. Ever calculate the mass of the Earth's crust? There might be a local effect within about a 10-foot radius of the wells. (Based on the fact that wells are spaced 10' apart, which I presume was designed to prevent overlapping zones of influence.) Maybe this winter I'll poke around our yard with a soil thermometer and see if I can tell a difference. Someone on our tour at the recent National Tour of Solar Homes asked the same question about accumulating temperature changes in the soil, though. Does anyone know whether this question has ever been researched? =====Yes. As a matter of fact, EPA funded a small research project through Stockton State College in New Jersey to look at this (among other things). I have not made this report widely available, because I had not perceived much public interest in it. The basic conclusion was that putting a driveway down would have more of a near-surface thermal effect (warming) than the geothermal heat exchanger. So if you are worried about cooling the earth off, just add a paved basketball court to the side of your house to compensate. If you are really, really interested, I can fax you the 13 pages of text related to this part of the report. Only ask me if you are actually going to read it; there will be a quiz. Please E-mail me your fax number. __________ Contact Information: --PLEASE NOTE UPCOMING PHONE # CHANGES-- Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs U. S. EPA - 6202J 401 M Street, SW Washington, DC 20460 202-233-9791 until 11/20, then 202-564-9791 202-233-9583 (fax) until 11/20 then 202-564-9583 offutt.stephen@epamail.epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html __________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 4 23:54:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA25538 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA10634 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:49:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA15087; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:45:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:39:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA14282 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:38:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from freedom.mtn.org (freedom.mtn.org [198.174.235.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA14278 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:38:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from erichart (dial-022.mtn.org [198.174.235.222]) by freedom.mtn.org (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA19716 for ; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:42:17 -0600 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19971105044303.006b1838@mtn.org> X-Sender: erichart@mtn.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 22:43:03 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Eric Hart Subject: GBlist: Re: Ground Source Heat Pumps & Environmental Impacts Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 406 I'm starting to get the point that ground source heat pumps aren't a very 'green' alternative to other types of heating systems. I'll summarize the problems that I have heard or know about below. Correct me if I got something wrong. 1. The buried coils tend to degrade after about five years due to some metal incompatibility issues (is this still the case?) 2. Massive amounts of dirt need to be moved to bury the coils. In Minnesota I have heard that trenches don't work so you need to dig a huge 10 foot deep hole to bury the coils in. 3. Electric heat pumps create more externalities (pollution from electric generation mostly) than a natural gas heat pump does (depending on the mix of fuels that your electric utility uses). So with that background, I have a few questions or comments. 1. Do the natural gas heat pumps pull heat out of the air (instead of the earth)? If so, that works in some climates but in extreme heating climates, pulling heat out of -20 F air is pretty inefficient. I guess I need to get some clarification on how a natural gas heat pump works. 2. Has anybody ran the coils for an earth source heat pump through a body of water (lake, pond, etc.)? Water has many more BTUs in it that the earth does and it would take massive amounts of energy to lower the temperature of a significantly sized body of water. Obviously a pond in everyones yard is not feasible but even a tank in the basement might have enough energy in it to run a heat pump. 3. So, if there are so many problems with heat pumps, why don't we use high efficiency boilers or water heaters to heat water for hydronic or hot water base board heat? That seems like a pretty simple solution that can be fired by biomass or use water preheated by the sun. Eric D. Hart Community Eco-design Network Minneapolis, Minnesota USA (612) 306-2326 http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/m037/kurtdand/cen/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 5 00:50:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA25863 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA23285 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:45:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA16728; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:41:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:35:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA16259 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:35:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA16255; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:35:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA15494; Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:38:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from vna-va12-24.ix.netcom.com(207.223.178.88) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma015435; Tue Nov 4 23:38:18 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971105004057.00695bd4@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: eeb98ord@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 00:41:01 -0500 To: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion Howard (EEBA)" Subject: GBlist: EEBA 15th Conference Gets Underway in Denver Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 407 The Energy Efficient Building Association 15th Annual Conference is getting underway in Denver. For more information, check into the EEBA website. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- New developments * on-line bookstore being upgraded by CREST and at EEBA: Howard Associates... * selected results and news flashes from the ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ conference will be posted daily on the site * performance data and field "lessons" from Building America & Energy STAR Homes programs; * important technical findings will be sent to EEBA-L and GreenBuilding lists as relevant * Councils and Board meets to discuss expansion of regional programs and services * 98 Conference set for DC, 30 Oct - Nov 1, 1998 so check in daily during 5-9 Nov. for updates, regards -- Bion --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 5 08:40:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA28899 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA09229 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:35:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25889; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:31:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:25:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA25603 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:25:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA25599 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:25:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (ppp11.topher.net [206.136.138.170]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id HAA13377; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:20:26 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:20:26 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711051320.HAA13377@mail.topher.net> X-Sender: ewestbrook@mail.topher.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Eric Hart From: Elena Westbrook Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Ground Source Heat Pumps & Environmental Impacts Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 408 Eric Hart said: >I'm starting to get the point that ground source heat pumps aren't a very >'green' alternative to other types of heating systems. I'll summarize the >problems that I have heard or know about below. Correct me if I got >something wrong. You asked for it! Bear in mind, I'm not an engineer, but I am the proud owner and operator of a GHP. >1. The buried coils tend to degrade after about five years due to some >metal incompatibility issues (is this still the case?) Unprotected metal does corrode in soil -- witness the problems with leaking underground storage tanks. But our system uses polyethylene (? anyway, plastic) tubing instead of metal. It may be a less efficient conductor than metal, but it will last a *lot* longer. And with 1760 linear feet of tubing for heat transfer, it still works. (see below) >2. Massive amounts of dirt need to be moved to bury the coils. In >Minnesota I have heard that trenches don't work so you need to dig a huge >10 foot deep hole to bury the coils in. We used vertical wells, which are much easier to install and much more efficient because the deeper you go, the more moderated soil temperatures are; you're also likely to take advantage of the increased efficiency of being below the water table. Ours are 220' deep (four wells, down and back in each boring, = 1760 ln ft), grouted with bentonite (a clay used in groundwater wells). The drilling, which was done with a truck-mounted hollow auger, didn't cost more than trenching would have, and probably less considering that our property is caliche (soft, weathered limestone) with a thin veneer of soil. Any soil-testing lab or environmental firm would have the equipment, if your GHP supplier doesn't have a good subcontractor. I know you can also use horizontal trenching or a body of water (I saw a demonstration once using a model home's swimming pool), but believe that neither of those is as efficient for the reasons you cite. On the other hand, Dallas doesn't have a frost line so the depth issue you mention never came up here. (The water in our neighbor's unheated swimming pool reached 100 degrees in August last year, so here you'd need a mighty big body of water.) >3. Electric heat pumps create more externalities (pollution from electric >generation mostly) than a natural gas heat pump does (depending on the mix >of fuels that your electric utility uses). The fuel question is an issue with so many things; GHPs raise the same old guestions. What are the indoor air quality issues associated with natural gas combustion in *that particular building*? What fuel does your utility burn? What are they permitted to burn, so you can consider a worst-case scenario? For our own house, we didn't research nat. gas heat pumps because gas is not available where we live. >3. So, if there are so many problems with heat pumps, why don't we use >high efficiency boilers or water heaters to heat water for hydronic or hot >water base board heat? That seems like a pretty simple solution that can be >fired by biomass or use water preheated by the sun. This question illustrates why it's so important to design building systems appropriate to the climate and site. Yes, I think a direct-fired natural gas boiler or even a furnace has less environmental costs than a GHP in a heating climate. (Ask Nadav if they keep old digests; the discussion about efficiency ratings may be on file somewhere.) Better yet, how about a solar hydronic system? I would guess that direct heating would always be more efficient than a heat-transfer system. But in Dallas, where the heating needs are pretty negligible but we need air conditioning from April to October, a GHP is clearly the most efficient option. The other point I would ask you to bear in mind is that everything has its cost. Everything in building is a compromise with *something*. The best you can do is select the systems that work for your site and meet your (or your clients') needs and priorities. ---Elena Westbrook, ELS WordWright Communications EWestbrook@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 5 08:46:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA28962 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:46:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA10238 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:41:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26227; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:37:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:32:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA25956 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:32:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA25949 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:32:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.55]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 1.52) id 4423100 ; Wed, 05 Nov 1997 08:35:05 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971105203337.0069c90c@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 20:33:37 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Natural Gas Heat Pumps In-Reply-To: <199711050700.CAA18294@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 409 At 02:00 AM 11/5/97 -0500, you wrote: "1. Do the natural gas heat pumps pull heat out of the air (instead of the earth)? If so, that works in some climates but in extreme heating climates, pulling heat out of -20 F air is pretty inefficient. I guess I need to get some clarification on how a natural gas heat pump works." Natural gas heat pumps work just like regular heat pumps. When it gets below about 30 degrees the heat pump cannot keep up. The NGHP runs on a natural gas engine. Heat recovery from the engine is also used to heat the building. The speed of the engine varies depending upon the temperature required. In very cold weather a supplemental gas heater warms the engine coolant before it enters the indoor air handler. Supplemental heater efficiency is about 80%. For more information contact your local York International dealer and ask for information on the Triathlon. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 5 08:53:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA29014 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:53:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA11480 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:48:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26823; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:44:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:39:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26288 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:38:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26276; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:38:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA157782; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:39:57 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:39:57 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: MHillLEDA@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: CO2 released by wood burning In-Reply-To: <971103163922_646426608@mrin42.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 410 Matthew: Further to your "Complications/Questions" of below on the above topic, I can provide part of the answers. Although no calculations have been done, nor any tree planting, we hope to plant enough tree on our suburban site to make our project a net C02 reducer, so that over a period of 10 or 20 years we may be able to reduce more C02 from the atmosphere that was produced in a "craddle to grave" scenario for our building project and its operation. That is why we are also looking for reliable landscaping info on how much C02 can be sequestered by different trees of different ages. Then we can begin to develop a landscape strategy for net C02 reduction on our little project.In addition we are also looking on-site production of wood fuel. We presently use sunflower stalks as kindling and the ashes instead of sand on slippery sidewalks, which later is swept into the adjacent garden area as fertilizer. RE: question #2, I would suspect that composting (garden + toilet) will also put carbon back into the soil.How much I do not know. RE: question #3: I do not know. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 3 Nov 1997 MHillLEDA@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 03/11/97 Jorg wrote: > > << : Further to the question of below, the CO2 that is released during > burning was the CO2 absorbed during its lifetime and would be the > amount released during decomposition, if allowed to rot naturally. Burning > releases that same CO2 just earlier, that is all. >> > > Complications/questions: > > Is there an assumption that trees will get planted to replace the one you are > burning? > > Trees also "fix" carbon into the soil , isn't this a significant part of the > carbon cycle ? > > If we all released a lot of CO2 earlier than it might of been released, does > it matter ? > > > Matthew Hill > Leeds Environmental Design Associates > > ps. Does anyone have figures (approximate but reliable) for how much Carbon > the average tree (eg 50 year old sycamore ) takes out of the atmosphere in a > year ? > I know younger trees are more effective, but haven't found any hard data. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 5 10:22:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00454 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:22:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00472 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:17:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29922; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:06:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29363 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:06:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29359; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:06:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA12413; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:09:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-35.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.163) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma012338; Wed Nov 5 09:08:55 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971105100817.0069d670@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: eeb98ord@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 10:08:19 -0500 To: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion Howard (EEBA)" Subject: GBlist: Energy Star's Building Momentum Workshop (ph#) Cc: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 411 Our appologies to our international neighbors who can not get through on numbers prefixed with "888" -- here is a direct dial number for information: (310) 847-1959 on the Energy Star's Building Momentum Workshop. --------------------------------- From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Subject: Re: EEBA-L: Energy Star's Building Momentum Workshop Further to the message of below, do you have an e-mail or other phone # since the 1 888 # does not work in Canada. I would be grateful for your assistance. Jorg ____________________________________________________________________________ _On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Bion Howard (EEBA) wrote: > Event: Energy Star's Building Momentum Workshop > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Location and Dates: November 20, 1997 in Boston, MA and > December 11, 1997 in Philadelphia, PA > Sponsor: US Environmental Protection Agency > Address: 401 M Street, SW Washington, DC 20460 > Phone: 1-888-STAR-YES > URL: http://www.epa.gov/buildings -------------------------------------------------------- snip--- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact: Bion Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology bhoward2@sprynet.com Web: ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 5 11:05:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA01056 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:05:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA11051 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:59:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01855; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:50:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:45:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01331 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:44:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01327 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:44:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KtV25584; Wed, 05 Nov 1997 10:47:14 EST To: OFFUTT.STEPHEN@EPAMAIL.EPA, Greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Geothermal-based pressurised antifreeze -Reply Message-ID: <19971105.114451.4495.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-8 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 10:47:14 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 412 In your e-mail you mentioned a document entitled Space Conditioning..., a 1993 analysis by climate. I called the number you gave and was told that documents dating from 1993 are no longer available at that location. Could you suggest an alternate source? Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 5 12:06:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA01871 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:06:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA27203 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:00:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04809; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:56:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:51:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04491 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:51:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04487 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:51:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from kuts8p07.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id AA26717; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:54:24 -0600 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971105165632.006d4d8c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 10:56:32 -0600 To: Eric Hart From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Ground Source Heat Pumps & Environmental Impacts Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 413 Has anybody ran the coils for an earth source heat pump through a body >of water (lake, pond, etc.)? Water has many more BTUs in it that the earth >does and it would take massive amounts of energy to lower the temperature of >a significantly sized body of water. Obviously a pond in everyones yard is >not feasible but even a tank in the basement might have enough energy in it >to run a heat pump. Interesting in possibly using a GSHP in a future house, I'm learning about these too. If one has a pond that is deep enough, then as a source for the GSHP it can be much less expensive a source of moderating temperatures for the GSHP. Where we are in Kansas, you need just 10 feet of depth (assume you need something deeper the further north you go?) and it takes only 25 feet of coil to do the job for a pump used in an average-sized house. I am interested however in the business of the coil deteriorating in water. Is that a problem such as has been suggested it is in the ground? The local electric coop offers a bit of help with the equipment purchase just as I think they do in most other places. But the initial expense is still considerable. Natural gas is an alternative only where it exists. Once you go into the country it doesn't. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 5 13:59:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA03054 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:59:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA27710 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:54:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10267; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:50:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:46:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA09895 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:46:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV (dcsmtp.wictok7.epa.gov [161.80.160.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09887 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:46:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 05 Nov 1997 13:47:33 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 13:40:02 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT To: Greenbuilding@crest.org, OFFUTT.STEPHEN@EPAMAIL.EPA, environs.com@juno.com Subject: GBlist: Re: Geothermal-based pressurised antifreeze -Reply -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 414 Thanks for catching this. I double checked and discovered that you talked to someone who screwed up. You may order Space Conditioning: The Next Frontier by calling the ENERGY STAR hotline at 1-888-782-7937 (888-STAR-YES) and asking for material code # 61664. If you have any problems with the service you receive through this hotline number, please let me know. Steve Offutt __________ Contact Information: --PLEASE NOTE UPCOMING PHONE # CHANGES-- Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs U. S. EPA - 6202J 401 M Street, SW Washington, DC 20460 202-233-9791 until 11/20, then 202-564-9791 202-233-9583 (fax) until 11/20 then 202-564-9583 offutt.stephen@epamail.epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html __________________________ >>> Beverly A. Weiter 11/05/97 10:47am >>> In your e-mail you mentioned a document entitled Space Conditioning..., a 1993 analysis by climate. I called the number you gave and was told that documents dating from 1993 are no longer available at that location. Could you suggest an alternate source? Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 5 16:12:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA04770 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:12:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA08309 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:12:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA16182; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:08:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:02:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA15775 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:02:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA15767 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:02:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [153.37.244.216] (1Cust88.max3.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.244.216]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA15560 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:06:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711052106.NAA15560@germany.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: heatpumps and other options Date: Wed, 5 Nov 97 13:09:32 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 415 Shannon GFX has been discussed a couple of times in this list. Anyone that's interested can search the archives on Solstice (www.solstice.crest.org). GFX also has a web site with tons of detailed information, including a brand new case study on a hotel application in New Zealand. You can see that at . Finally, Vaughn Mfg provides GFX info on their web site . Bruce >Something that I have heard about, but doesn't seem to being >mentioned on here is a device called GFX which stands for Graywater >Falling-Film Heat Exchange. It's s thin copper tube that is wrapped >around your water intake pipe before it goes to your water heater. >The copper tube takes the already used (and heated) water from your >drain and uses that heat to preheat the incoming water. It costs >about $250 and apparently works just about as well as a heat pump. > >Shannon Goyette -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 5 16:18:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA05214 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:18:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA19960 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:07:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13793; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:04:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:59:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13317 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:59:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub0.tc.umn.edu (0@mhub0.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13309 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:59:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from tfs.psych.umn.edu by mhub0.tc.umn.edu; Wed, 5 Nov 97 14:02:21 -0600 Received: from TFS_FS2/SpoolDir by tfs.psych.umn.edu (Mercury 1.21); 5 Nov 97 14:02:36 CST6DST Received: from SpoolDir by TFS_FS2 (Mercury 1.30); 5 Nov 97 14:02:36 CST6DST From: "shannon" Organization: MN Twin Family Study To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:02:28 DST Subject: GBlist: heatpumps and other options In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-ID: <173E8B7D2BA3@tfs.psych.umn.edu> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 416 Something that I have heard about, but doesn't seem to being mentioned on here is a device called GFX which stands for Graywater Falling-Film Heat Exchange. It's s thin copper tube that is wrapped around your water intake pipe before it goes to your water heater. The copper tube takes the already used (and heated) water from your drain and uses that heat to preheat the incoming water. It costs about $250 and apparently works just about as well as a heat pump. Shannon Goyette ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 5 17:19:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA06154 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:19:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA26615 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:19:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18727; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:15:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:11:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA18442 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:11:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.k12.vt.us (pop.k12.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18438 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:11:27 -0500 (EST) From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Received: from VDHVAX ([159.105.135.2]) by pop.k12.vt.us (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-12124) with SMTP id AAA124 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:26:44 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:12:50 -0500 Message-Id: <97110517125061@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: High R-value walls in a stick-built house? X-VMS-To: SMTP%"greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 417 any thoughts on the "best" way to get to r-40 walls in a *stick-built* house? (the r-60 ceiling shouldn't be a problem) i would like to minimize lumber use, especially large dimension lumber. as usual, cost is also a factor. thanks for your input. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 5 18:42:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA07043 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:42:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA16872 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:42:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA22023; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:38:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:34:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA21662 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:34:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM ([207.49.88.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21658 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:34:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM by rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id qa018034 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:35:59 -0500 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dan Cautley" Organization: NAHB Research Center, Inc. To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 18:39:24 -500 Subject: GBlist: GFX Reply-to: dcautley@nahbrc.org In-reply-to: <199711052106.NAA15560@germany.it.earthlink.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) X-Info: NT Mail Server Message-Id: <02355960902810@NAHBRC.ORG> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 418 The GFX drainwater heat recovery system was mentioned again recently. Interested parties should understand that it is a simple (no moving parts) device which recovers heat from warm water going down the drain in a building, using it to preheat incoming cold water. It is unrelated to heat pump technology, and may in fact be an excellent accessory to a geothermal system or air source heat pump. We (NAHB Research Center) are just starting installation of 40 GFX units in five US locations in what will be the first substantial field trial of the device in occupied buildings. Anyone interested in getting an announcement when results are available can contact me as shown below. Dan Cautley dcautley@nahbrc.org Phone 800-638-8556 x706 Fax 301-249-3265 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 5 19:15:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA07291 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA24834 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA23935; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:11:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:07:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA23542 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:07:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin38.mail.aol.com (mrin38.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA23536 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:07:34 -0500 (EST) From: DAEly@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin38.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id TAA01969 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:10:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:10:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971105190840_1759122373@mrin38> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: wraps Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 419 Hi All -- I'm fairly new to this list but feel compelled to jump in on the issue of wraps, surfactants, rain screens, etc, etc. A friend of mine is experiencing deterioration of cedar clapboards and the outer OSB layer of stressed skin panels due to trapped moisture. In this particular instance the builder applied the claps without a wrap. I have discussed with the owner removing the claps and adding furring to form a rain screen (WITH wrap). One concern I have (in theory) is fire safety. For the furring to work it must have ventillation, and if there is ventillation between flamable surfaces there is the possibility for fire to travel. Does anybody have any experience with this? I was also wondering if there are species of wood which don't have surfactants in them. There is a local manufacturer of clear, quarter-sawn claps of spruce. They are primed all sides, and quite nice (although short). They have been used in New England for hundreds of years, they come from managed forests not from old growth forests, and they aren't shipped thousands of miles. I have seen 100-plus year old applications of spruce and pine directly over board siding, and the wood looks great. David Ely, Architect ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 5 20:03:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA07891 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:03:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA07684 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:03:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA27133; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:58:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:54:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA26756 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:53:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA26751 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:53:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA10907; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:58:32 -0800 Message-ID: <346114BF.D78CB112@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 16:52:15 -0800 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: High R-value walls in a stick-built house? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <97110517125061@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 420 mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us wrote: > > any thoughts on the "best" way to get to r-40 walls in > a *stick-built* house? (the r-60 ceiling shouldn't be > a problem) i would like to minimize lumber use, especially > large dimension lumber. as usual, cost is also a factor. > > thanks for your input. By stick built do you mean the walls are uniformly sharing 2nd floor and roof loads or are the sticks there to nail siding and drywall to? An 8" foam core panel with osb ext. and int. might be the answer as it can to some degree carry a uniformly spread load. Note: the panel has to be approved for the load. Two 2x4 on the flat with 6-8" of foam between and bolt connected with foam adhesive between wood and foam also qualifies as a post assembly. At the moment I prefer this or a similar detail to SIP's but then I generally carry loads at specific points and walls can become simply infill panels. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 5 21:08:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA08462 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:08:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA25091 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:08:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA02757; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:59:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA01864 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout38.mail.aol.com (emout38.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA01860 for ; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:59:30 -0500 (EST) From: Schawe@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout38.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA20643 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:02:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:02:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971105154702_341732720@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Design solution Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 421 Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > Use the glass in as large pieces as possible, to reduce the increased losses at >the edge. This glass can have a center R value of 8-10, and it works amazingly >well. > >Of course, you don't need a huge window wall to take advantage of the view, but >then this gets into aesthetics, where engineers fear to tread. Sometimes Less is More. Frame your views carefully. Use the design solution to emphasize the selected or desired views. Small windows strategically placed can be MORE effective than a giant, energy leaking, picture window that overwhelms. Have you ever felt *cold* on a winter day just from gazing out a too big window? Ditto to all the other things Marc said. Cheers, Phil ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 10:02:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA20214 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:02:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27785 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:02:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24449; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:58:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:52:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23884 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:52:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23880 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:52:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA112114; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:53:42 -0700 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 07:53:42 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: "Eco-stud" wall truss In-Reply-To: <97110517125061@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 422 "No-Name": We often use "Eco-studs" that are comprised of a 2x4 as the bearing interior stud connected to an outer 2x2 or 2x3 stud (catilevered) by the left-over cutoffs from truss manufacturers at the top, middle and top, using metal gussets (of 60% recycled metal). Design varies according to height and loads. In the most recent project they were manufactured to a height of 12 feet for a 1.5 story project. One stud for fast installation, with any width possible (usually 13" for R 50 cellulose insulation in western Canada). This is the most economical use of wood in wall studs that we know. This may be a copyrighted design and product. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Wed, 5 Nov 1997 mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us wrote: > > any thoughts on the "best" way to get to r-40 walls in > a *stick-built* house? (the r-60 ceiling shouldn't be > a problem) i would like to minimize lumber use, especially > large dimension lumber. as usual, cost is also a factor. > > thanks for your input. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 10:02:56 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA20222 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27905 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:02:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24496; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:59:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:53:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23936 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:53:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mb01.mail.aol.com (mb01.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA23932 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:53:42 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mb01.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA05343 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:56:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:56:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971106095549_1828241456@mrin41.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Schawe@aol.com Subject: GBlist: Glass Design Solution and THANKS! Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 423 Phil responded to Marc's post on the big picture window: << Sometimes Less is More. Frame your views carefully. Use the design solution to emphasize the selected or desired views. Small windows strategically placed can be MORE effective than a giant, energy leaking, picture window that overwhelms. Have you ever felt *cold* on a winter day just from gazing out a too big window? Ditto to all the other things Marc said. Cheers, Phil >> Two additions: 1. Big "good" windows should also have good low-conductivity spacres systems to keep the edges warmer in winter and avoid problematic condensation along the perimeter, and 2. Remember Christopher Alexander "Pattern Language" and the notion of "zen view"? By the way, THANKS to ALL who sent in window "horror stories" for the EEBA conference. Yesterday's workshop went well and we had great fun reading and sharing the many stories people sent in. One of the attendees even brought video of a horror story! .... and we actually kept people's interest for 8 hours on WINDOWS! I guess there is more new material than I thought! Regards, Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 10:04:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA20258 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:04:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA28337 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:04:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24678; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:01:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:56:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24120 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (bentnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.14.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24112 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:56:14 -0500 (EST) From: liverjx@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 85256547.00526E1E ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:00:21 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <85256547.00504D1C.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:00:29 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: High R-value walls in a stick-built house? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 424 I am familiar with the superinsulation approach developed by award-winning builder, Neal Carter, from Charleston, Maine. He first builds a standard 2x4 wall to attach the exterior sheathing to and to support the roof system. Then on the inside he creates a wall truss by ripping 2x4's into 2x2's that are spaced 8" to 10" to allow for maximum insulation depth. The 2x2's are connected via scrap pieces of plywood gussets which are nailed in place. After that, it is simply a matter of insulating the whole wall cavity with a blown-in, sprayed-in, or foamed-in material. It's a very innovative, elegant and cost-effective solution to the problem. Neal has written an abstract detailing his wall truss system which he may be willing to share with you. He can be reached at: Solar Assisted Homes, Inc., RR1 Box 1670, Charleston, Maine 04422, (207) 285-3138. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 10:19:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA20877 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:19:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA01866 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:19:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25311; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:15:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:11:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25004 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:11:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24998 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA16278; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:12:36 -0700 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:12:36 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Dan Cautley Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: greywater heat exchangers In-Reply-To: <02355960902810@NAHBRC.ORG> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 425 Dan: Please put me on your mailing list. I live in a house with 2 greywater heat exchangers: storage type and counter-flow. One we have had problems with, the other with lower efficiency has been trouble-free so far.I would also highly recommend you integrate a Canadian greywater heat exchanger called " DrainGain" into your testing. It claims 40% heat recovery. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Dan Cautley wrote: > > The GFX drainwater heat recovery system was mentioned again recently. > Interested parties should understand that it is a simple (no moving > parts) device which recovers heat from warm water going down the > drain in a building, using it to preheat incoming cold water. It is > unrelated to heat pump technology, and may in fact be an excellent > accessory to a geothermal system or air source heat pump. > > We (NAHB Research Center) are just starting installation of 40 GFX > units in five US locations in what will be the first substantial > field trial of the device in occupied buildings. Anyone interested > in getting an announcement when results are available can contact me > as shown below. > > Dan Cautley > dcautley@nahbrc.org > Phone 800-638-8556 x706 > Fax 301-249-3265 > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 10:32:14 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21129 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:32:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA05202 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:32:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25926; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:28:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:24:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25628 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:23:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25615 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA51584; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:25:02 -0700 Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:25:02 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: STEPHEN OFFUTT Cc: Greenbuilding@crest.org, OFFUTT.STEPHEN@EPAMAIL.EPA, environs.com@juno.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Geothermal-based pressurised antifreeze -Reply -Reply In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 426 Stephen et al: does anyone have another # for Energy Star for the international subscribers to this list? Is this an environmentally friendly antifreeze or heat pump system? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, STEPHEN OFFUTT wrote: > > Thanks for catching this. I double checked and discovered that you talked to > someone who screwed up. You may order Space Conditioning: The Next Frontier > by calling the ENERGY STAR hotline at 1-888-782-7937 (888-STAR-YES) and > asking for material code # 61664. > > If you have any problems with the service you receive through this hotline number, > please let me know. > > Steve Offutt > > __________ > Contact Information: > --PLEASE NOTE UPCOMING PHONE # CHANGES-- > Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs > U. S. EPA - 6202J > 401 M Street, SW > Washington, DC 20460 > 202-233-9791 until 11/20, then 202-564-9791 > 202-233-9583 (fax) until 11/20 then 202-564-9583 > offutt.stephen@epamail.epa.gov > ENERGY STAR Hotline 1-888-STAR-YES > www.epa.gov/energystar.html > __________________________ > > >>> Beverly A. Weiter 11/05/97 10:47am >>> > In your e-mail you mentioned a document entitled Space > Conditioning..., a 1993 analysis by climate. I called the > number you gave and was told that documents dating from 1993 are no > longer available at that location. Could you suggest an alternate > source? > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > Boca Raton, FL > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 10:48:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21397 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:48:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA09586 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:48:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26765; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:44:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:40:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26324 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:40:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26315 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:40:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id JAA0000023431; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:44:02 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971106154604.006ba984@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:46:04 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Earth warming Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 427 An alarming article in the NYT last Friday caught my attention. It's not unrelated to the reason this group exists, so I'll pass the information on to those of you who didn't see it. It seems that among main stream scientists interested in global warming, a consensus is building that the warming trend is not going to be stopped and that it would be more practical at this time for science to turn its attention to dealing with the effect rather than the cause. This consensus is based on the fact that in the real life world, i.e. in real politic, the tide is not going to be turned or at least not sufficiently to stop the warming, and better put resources where it will do the most 'good'. This isn't to say, of course, that efforts should be stopped, rather that a new realism is creeping into the equation. I think it interesting that whereas only a year or more ago one could still hear people in traditional science talking about whether there really is a warming trend, now you just don't hear those voices at all. It is as if the termites have crept back into the woodwork again. Last night at an architecture lecture, the professor pointed out that green is not fashionable any more, so no one is interested in it. This again, refers to main stream professionals, not the folks in this group obviously. I would submit that mainstream has never been interested in green and that if we have to wait for what is fashionable, how will anything change? It is frustrating. Something definitely positive can be said for working with the orthodox to get code changes. It is one, albeit very slow, but still quite effective way of bringing the necessary changes to bear. It is the quiet way diplomacy works and in that arena it is valid. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 14:43:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26000 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:43:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18513 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07778; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:39:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:34:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07185 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:34:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07179 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:34:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.20] (mke-1-4.binc.net [208.142.229.20]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA35086 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:38:08 -0600 Message-Id: <199711061938.NAA35086@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: wraps Date: Thu, 6 Nov 97 13:47:48 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 428 David, I live in a house with cedar claps over structural insulated panels. Claps are nailed directly over the outside skin, which is 7/16 Weyerhauser Structurwood. I've removed a few claps in various locations out of curiosity, and have found the panels to be in excellent condition in every case. The installation is 7 years old. I paid particular attention to caulking the siding well after installation, and re-did anything that moved after 4 years. I suspect that water is regularly leaking behind the claps on your project, and that a moisture barrier may not necessarily be the answer (fix the cause- not the symptom). The panel manufacturer I work with (Insulspan) suggests that a wrap NOT be used, as it may impede drying of any moisture which wicks through or is driven under the claps in extreme conditions. Watch for an upcoming post on moisture and panels/EPS- when I have a few minutes to gather the info. Chris Koehn Top Ridge Pewaukee, WI ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 14:43:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26003 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:43:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18516 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07776; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:39:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:35:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07205 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:34:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07199 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:34:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.20] (mke-1-4.binc.net [208.142.229.20]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA27462 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:38:16 -0600 Message-Id: <199711061938.NAA27462@glacier.binc.net> Subject: GBlist: EPS primer Date: Thu, 6 Nov 97 13:47:58 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 429 Thought I would offer a summary of a few studies and tech bulletins regarding the durability and behavior of EPS foam. AGED R VALUE: Aged r value studies of EPS foam indicate that 13 years of in-field service show no decrease in insulation value from time of installation. Similar studies of PUR/PIR (polyurethane and polyicocyanurate) foams show that r values at the time of manufacure, which are as high as 9.09 per inch, drop to an average of 6.25 per inch after 6 months, and often continue to decline over time. R VALUE AS A FUNCTION OF TEMPERATURE: The R value of EPS actually increases as temperature drops, while that of PUR/PIR foam drops. Example: at 75 degrees f type 1 EPS has an R value of 3.9 per inch, while PUR/PIR sample was 5.6. At -25 degrees f, the EPS r value tested at 4.7, while the PUR/PIR tested at 4.9 (source for above: Study by the Midwest Roofing Contractors Ass'n, as summarized in "the Construction Specifier, Feb '95) EPS BLOWING AGENT: Pentane. EPS contains app. 6% pentane by weight when shipped. Pentane is used because it becomes a gas at 100 degrees C, which exerts the needed pressure to expand EPS beads. Pentane is highly flammable, and must be handled with care in the manufacturing process. It can produce a mild nacotic effect in higher concentrations (much higher than would be experienced in the field). Pentane is considered a VOC, and will react very slowly with nitrogen oxides and sunlight to produce ozone. The reaction is slow enough that the EPA does not classify pentane as a greenhouse gas, but it is classified as a regulated VOC. (source:EPS MSDS, and Blancet, F.E. U of Calif, "photochemistry in the Lower Atmosphere", Industrial and Engineering Chemistry 44, pp. 1339-1346) EPS RECYCLEABILITY: EPS is recycleable and is being recycled. The rate of recycling has surpassed that of both glass and paper for pre and post consumer EPS. EPS and MOISTURE: EPS is a closed cell polystyrene foam that has a high degree of dimensional stability and R value retention under moisture exposure. EPS does not absorb moisture appreciably, even in conditions characteristic of prolonged, cold winters. The small amount of moisture absorbed (an average of .2% by weight over extended periods of 0.66 Hg vapor pressure) has little or no effect on the compressive or flexural strength, and EPS insulation retains between 95 and 97% of its thermal efficiency under these conditions. (source: study by the Energy Materials Testing Laboratory, 1984) In residential applications, studies show that a "threshold level of vapor pressure" is required to drive moisture into EPS. A vapor barrier is required only with extreme interior conditions (above 80% relative humidity and 70 degrees f) in addition to cold exterior conditions averaging below 40 degrees f. (source: Ronald Tye: "The development of experimental Data on Cellular Plastic Insulations Under Simulated Winter Exposure Conditions", presented to ASTM in 1984) TEMPERATURE CYCLING: Core samples removed from walk-in freezers, some as old as 16 years, exposed to frequent freeze-thaw cycling, show that EPS withstands these conditions without loss of structural integrity or other physical properties (study by Dynatech Research and Development Co, Cambridge, MA) COMBUSTABILITY: EPS is combustable. Common practice seperates it from the building interior by a fire barrier. Structural insulated panels achieve an acceptable fire rating by encapsulating EPS behind OSB and frequently sheet rock. EPS is also available with a fire retarant additive, which most SIP manufacturers use. (source: EPS MSDS, Structural Insulated Panel Ass'n) Hope this helps. Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 15:24:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA26751 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:24:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA01260 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:24:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10409; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:20:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:15:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA09430 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09418 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:15:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.85] (pa-ppp15.hevanet.com [204.119.60.100]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01315 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:18:51 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:52:06 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: GBlist: Framing Views Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 430 Hi, All-- Hasn't everyone seen a dramatic giant moon coming up over the horizon--only to wonder at how small the same moon looked as it climbed higher into the sky? It's the optical illusion created by viewing the moon across a closer foreground--the brain uses the foreground to figure out how big the moon "should" look. When the moon rises higher, the foreground is no longer there and the illusion disappears. You can use the same illusion to create dramatic views, with windows and landscaping providing the foreground for distant mountains or seashore or whatever. That's how smaller windows can create enhanced views. Conversely, the floor-to-ceiling window wall "wastes" a lot of drama--as well as energy and comfort--by bringing in extraneous visual clutter like the patio chairs and flower pots, so the magnificent focal point is mixed up with the ordinary and humdrum. Best, Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 15:24:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA26762 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:24:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA01309 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:24:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10457; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:20:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:16:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA09457 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:15:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09444 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:15:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.85] (pa-ppp15.hevanet.com [204.119.60.100]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01320 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:18:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <97110517125061@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:17:00 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: High R-value walls in a stick-built house? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 431 Hi, Unknown Writer-- Oregonians stole a good idea for a double wall from those clever Canadians*. It's framed normally with 2x4's for the exterior bearing wall. Then interior 2x4 walls are framed and tipped up into place to leave a 3-1/2" gap between the inner and outer walls. The framed walls are insulated normally with R-11 to R-15 batts, while the gap is insulated with batts laid in horizontally. Overall R-value is 33 to 45. The gap allows plumbing and wiring runs. Vapor retarders can be installed in the usual ways. Plywood is laid over the top of the wall as a firestop. Window and door openings are roughed in and boxed with plywood to the nominal dimensions. This wall is combined with raised-heel or overhung trusses to get ceiling insulation out over the top of the wall. I think the main drawback is the complexity of designing in bays or bumpouts or interior corners--these walls want to be straight! Best, Mike * Richard Kadulski--the architect who publishes SolPlan Review in Vancouver B.C.--and I were sitting together at the recent Sustainable Building Northwest conference when a Washington code official described his state as "the only jurisdiction with a ventilation code", ignoring an entire nation to the north. In the Northwest, our building programs have learned a great deal from the Canadians' excellent research and field testing on energy efficient houses. >any thoughts on the "best" way to get to r-40 walls in >a *stick-built* house? (the r-60 ceiling shouldn't be >a problem) i would like to minimize lumber use, especially >large dimension lumber. as usual, cost is also a factor. > >thanks for your input. >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 15:24:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA26770 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:24:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA01334 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:24:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10478; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:16:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA09470 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:15:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09449 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.85] (pa-ppp15.hevanet.com [204.119.60.100]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01307 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:18:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971106154604.006ba984@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:37:03 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth warming Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 432 Hi, Sacie-- When entire forests are burning in Indonesia and the Amazon, should we worry about fuel choices that reduce CO2 emissions from a new heating system? When the Pacific is swelling up because of the massive amounts of heat it has absorbed, does it make sense to detail passive cooling for a house? When pieces of Antarctica the size of Rhode Island are breaking off, should we be fussing over efficient window options? When hurricanes and floods reappear in the strongest El Nino ever, can we still believe that heat recovery matters? I say yes. Partly, so we have answers when people finally start asking questions. Partly, for the sake of our own souls. Did you ever see the film Das Boot? Remember the scenes of terrified German submariners being smashed around by British depth charges, hoping their hull would not fail as bolts broke and sea water streamed in through the cracks? That's Earth today--we're in for a bruising--but maybe the hull will hold together and we'll all survive. And maybe one of us holds the bolt that survival depends on. Best, Mike >An alarming article in the NYT last Friday caught my attention. It's not >unrelated to the reason this group exists, so I'll pass the information on >to those of you who didn't see it. It seems that among main stream >scientists interested in global warming, a consensus is building that the >warming trend is not going to be stopped and that it would be more practical >at this time for science to turn its attention to dealing with the effect >rather than the cause. This consensus is based on the fact that in the real >life world, i.e. in real politic, the tide is not going to be turned or at >least not sufficiently to stop the warming, and better put resources where >it will do the most 'good'. > >This isn't to say, of course, that efforts should be stopped, rather that a >new realism is creeping into the equation. I think it interesting that >whereas only a year or more ago one could still hear people in traditional >science talking about whether there really is a warming trend, now you just >don't hear those voices at all. It is as if the termites have crept back >into the woodwork again. Last night at an architecture lecture, the >professor pointed out that green is not fashionable any more, so no one is >interested in it. This again, refers to main stream professionals, not the >folks in this group obviously. I would submit that mainstream has never >been interested in green and that if we have to wait for what is >fashionable, how will anything change? It is frustrating. Something >definitely positive can be said for working with the orthodox to get code >changes. It is one, albeit very slow, but still quite effective way of >bringing the necessary changes to bear. It is the quiet way diplomacy works >and in that arena it is valid. > Sacie Lambertson > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 15:38:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA27072 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:38:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA05625 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:38:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11263; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:34:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:30:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10968 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:30:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV (dcsmtp.wictok7.epa.gov [161.80.160.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10962 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:30:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 06 Nov 1997 14:20:42 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 14:17:19 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca Cc: Greenbuilding@crest.org, OFFUTT.STEPHEN@EPAMAIL.EPA, environs.com@juno.com Subject: GBlist: Re: ENERGY STAR hotline # (formerly: Geothermal-based pressurised antifreeze) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 433 ---From--- "Jorg D. Ostrowski" 11/06/97 10:25am >>> Stephen et al: does anyone have another # for Energy Star for the international subscribers to this list? Is this an environmentally friendly antifreeze or heat pump system? _______________________ The direct phone number for the ENERGY STAR hotline is: 202-775-6650 The "Space Conditioning: The Next Frontier" report I referred to in an earlier posting compares several types of heating and cooling systems for residential buildings. The geothermal systems that are used for comparison are typical closed-loop, geothermal heat pump systems (also called ground-source or GeoExchange). The modeling was done disregarding whether any antifreeze were used or not, but was based on an assumed operating efficiency. Please let me know if I can answer any other questions. Steve _________ > Contact Information: > --PLEASE NOTE UPCOMING PHONE # CHANGES-- > Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs > U. S. EPA - 6202J > 401 M Street, SW > Washington, DC 20460 > 202-233-9791 until 11/20, then 202-564-9791 > 202-233-9583 (fax) until 11/20 then 202-564-9583 > offutt.stephen@epamail.epa.gov > ENERGY STAR Hotline 1-888-STAR-YES > www.epa.gov/energystar.html > __________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 16:13:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA27685 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:13:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA15052 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:13:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12669; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:09:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:05:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA12385 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:05:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12376 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:05:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA28476; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:10:04 -0800 Message-ID: <346230B6.C8E7ADAD@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 13:03:50 -0800 From: John Salmen Organization: TERRAIN E.D.S. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris & Ruth Koehn CC: GB List Subject: Re: GBlist: EPS primer X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199711061938.NAA27462@glacier.binc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 434 Excellent information - thank you very much The information on the Rvalue increase was very nice to have as my original thoughts on the material was that the cell structure would behave similarily to some woods i.e. become more insulative in colder weather. Thanks again John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Chris & Ruth Koehn wrote: > > > R VALUE AS A FUNCTION OF TEMPERATURE: The R value of EPS actually > increases as temperature drops, while that of PUR/PIR foam drops. > Example: at 75 degrees f type 1 EPS has an R value of 3.9 per inch, > while > PUR/PIR sample was 5.6. At -25 degrees f, the EPS r value tested at > 4.7, > while the PUR/PIR tested at 4.9 > (source for above: Study by the Midwest Roofing Contractors Ass'n, as > summarized in "the Construction Specifier, Feb '95) > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 16:25:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA27888 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:25:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA18668 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:25:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA13609; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:21:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:17:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA13071 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:17:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from netmgr.cso.niu.edu (netmgr.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA13058 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from banjo (banjo.cgs.niu.edu [131.156.47.168]) by netmgr.cso.niu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA08253 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:20:54 -0600 (CST) From: sfahey@w3pipe.com Message-Id: <199711062120.PAA08253@netmgr.cso.niu.edu> Date: Thu, 06 Nov 97 15:15:48 -0600 In-Reply-To: <199710061340.4239730.7@w3pipe.com> Subject: GBlist: Siding (was: RE: wraps) X-Originally-To: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.40 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 435 In <199710061340.4239730.7@w3pipe.com>, on 11/06/97 at 01:47 PM, Chris & Ruth Koehn said: >David, >I live in a house with cedar claps over structural insulated panels. >Claps are nailed directly over the outside skin, which is 7/16 >Weyerhauser Structurwood. I've removed a few claps in various locations >out of curiosity, and have found the panels to be in excellent condition >in every case. The installation is 7 years old. I'm building a house in the spring and intend on using SIP construction. I haven't selected the siding or roffing yet. I see that Chris used cedar for siding. Any other suggestions for siding and roofing. URL's ? Thanks for all the info, Sean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 17:25:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA28989 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:25:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA04303 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:25:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16809; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:17:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA16410 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from hil-img-3.compuserve.com (hil-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.177.133]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA16405 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:17:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-3.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.8) id RAA01911 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:20:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:19:59 -0500 From: muscoe Subject: GBlist: Design solution To: Greenbuilding List Message-ID: <199711061720_MC2-2710-3F70@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id RAA16406 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 436 I used to give just this design problem to architecture students in a solar course... There were many solutions tried but the most successful ones worked with the zen philosopy that one or two carefully placed small windows giving onto a good view can emphasize and help us appreciate the view more than a big picture window gaping at it. This remains true today, but the high-R windows available now give permit a larger size by reducing the penalties for north glass. I recommend you find a good designer who know their stuff and pay them to help. good luck, Muscoe Martin, AIA Susan Maxman Architects 123 S. 22nd Street Philadelphia, PA 19103 USA smarch@compuserve.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 17:42:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA29335 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:42:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA08991 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA17514; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:39:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:35:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA17186 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:34:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from sysplan.com ([38.251.84.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA17182 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:34:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [38.251.84.158] by sysplan.com (940816.SGI.8.6.9/3.1.090690-System Planning Corporation) id WAA00495; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:38:25 GMT Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:38:25 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Stuart Brodsky Subject: GBlist: Re; net carbon emissions Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: A X-Keywords: X-UID: 437 The US Department of Energy has plenty of data on carbon emissions per BTU generation from fossil fuels. Further, Richard Stein, in his research "The Handbook of Energy Use for Building Construction" reported on energy consumption in manufacture of a vast array of building materials. The data is old (based on 1967 census) but gives an idea of the energy consumption (and therefore carbon emissions) and remains especially helpful in comparing products. My own research relied on Steins data to compare energy requirements and carbon emissions from manufacture of solid sawn lumber and engineered structural joists--I joists, etc. A start on estimating carbon sequestration from trees might be to consider the carbon content of wood (varies among species) and also growth rate (volume of wood) for a given year of a tree's life. The question remains in my mind, do trees grow proportionally each year, or are there different rates of growth given maturity of tree. SB. >>I thought burning any fuel contributed CO2 to the atmoshere. I'm with you, Malcolm. Bion and others make some very interesting points, but as far as I can see they're academic. If the cycle is out of equilibrium because CO2 is being released faster than it's being incorporated into biomass, it doesn't much matter whether the imbalance is due to the burning of fossil fuels, the burning of biomass at an un-heard-of rate, the fact that the "current inventory" of biomass has been reduced to a point where it can't absorb atmospheric CO2 fast enough, or a combination of the three. I'd love to see figures on the amount of CO2 released per Btu delivered for various fuels, taking into account the energy used in extraction and transport, combustion efficiency, and so on. Someone must have done the calculations... George ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ Stuart Brodsky Research Analyst System Planning Corporation Voice: 703-351-8594 1429 North Quincy Street Fax: 703-351-8662 Arlington, Virginia 22207 Email: sbrodsky@sysplan.com http://www.sysplan.com Supporting the Ultra Electronics Program at DARPA: http://web-ext2.darpa.mil/eto/ULTRA/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 18:29:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA00169 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:29:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA20492 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:29:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19126; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:25:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:21:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA18785 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:21:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from swiss.direct.ca (swiss.direct.ca [199.60.229.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA18781 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:21:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from van-52-0813.direct.ca [204.174.253.109] by swiss.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.70 #1) id 0xTbHU-0006Sp-00; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:24:08 -0800 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: CO2 released by wood burning Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:33:37 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 438 > Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:39:57 -0700 (MST) > From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" > Subject: Re: GBlist: CO2 released by wood burning > >. Although no calculations have been > done, nor any tree planting, we hope to plant enough tree on our > suburban site to make our project a net C02 reducer, so that over a period > of 10 or 20 years we may be able to reduce more C02 from the atmosphere > that was produced in a "craddle to grave" scenario for our building > project and its operation. That is why we are also looking for reliable > landscaping info on how much C02 can be sequestered by different trees of > different ages. > Jorg, have you considered the impact that planting trees on your lot will have on your neighbours? On the one hand the trees will offer shelter (as windbreaks) which in your climate and location would be beneficial, and provide a CO2 sink. But on the one hand while the trees may offer one solution, they may restrict solar access to neighbours. Even during winter, some tree types offer significant shading. Have you decided yet how you are planning to evaluate some of these conflicting issues? I don't mean to suggest that I'm not in favour of trees, but I'd thought it worth raising the issue. As so much else, it seems it all comes down to which compromises do you make. ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seymour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 20:20:21 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA02130 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:20:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA16275 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:20:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA22535; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:16:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:12:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA22292 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:12:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA22282 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:12:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5.carleton.ca [134.117.136.25]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA03814; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:15:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id UAA08325; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:15:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:15:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711070115.UAA08325@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re:High R-value walls in a stick-built house ? Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 439 on Thu, 6 Nov 1997 Mega-memory Mike O'Brien" wrote: > Oregonians stole a good idea for a double wall from those > clever Canadians*. It's framed normally with 2x4's for the > exterior bearing wall. Then interior 2x4 walls are framed > and tipped up into place to leave a 3-1/2" gap between the > inner and outer walls. [ snip ] Hello MMMike and Thieving Oregonians; Seems that when you guys stole the "good idea" you forgot to steal the instruction manual. In the Olde Days, what we would've done here, is make the interior wall load-bearing (studs @16" o/c). This wall would also carry the services. The VDR is placed on the outside of this wall and sheathed. Then a second, non-load-bearing curtain wall (2x3 or 2x4 studs @24" o/c, staggered so as to not align with the interior wall studs) is built right on top of it (to ensure that door and window openings are perfectly aligned.) Then the curtain wall is temporarily blocked-up from the bearing wall to any desired thickeness (3.5", 5.5", 7.25" etc.) and 1/2" plywood plates are affixed to join the two walls together at the top and bottom plates, window and door openings. The blocks are then removed and the space between the two walls are fitted with a continous layer of insulation (anywhere from 4" to 8" nominal)... the curtain wall cavity is insulated (another 3-4" nominal) ...and then the curtain wall is sheathed. This places at least 2/3 of the total insulation value of the wall on the cold side of the VDR, so there isn't a problem with condensation in the insulation of the bearing wall. The wall is then tilted-up, ...insulated, sheathed, and with VDR installed from the get-go. Since the interior wall is load-bearing, the curtain wall can be cantilevered out past the edge of the foundation, consuming less valuable interior floor area (as would be the case with the Oregonian method). By having the VDR on the outside of the interior bearing wall and backed up by sheathing, the plumbers, electricians and drywallers can go about their business without anyone having to worry about them violating the integrity of the VDR. It also makes remodelling easier. Although one is in effect, building two walls, the volume of framing lumber used would be less than a normal 2x6 wall (studs @16" o/c). No comparison WRT R-value though. -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 6 21:45:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA03845 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:45:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA06220 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:45:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26142; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:41:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:37:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA25821 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:37:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from pos-srv4100.javanet.com (pos-srv4100.javanet.com [209.94.128.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA25815 for ; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:37:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from 8 (armory-us921.javanet.com [209.94.151.180]) by pos-srv4100.javanet.com (8.8.8/8.7) with SMTP id VAA23225; Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:40:26 -0500 (EST) From: "Janice Steinem & John Barrett" To: , Subject: Re: GBlist: wraps Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:58:50 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcea57$871e5e60$LocalHost@8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 440 -----Original Message----- From: DAEly@aol.com To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 10:15 PM Subject: GBlist: wraps > One concern I have (in theory) is fire safety. > For the furring to work it must have ventillation, and if there is >ventillation between flamable surfaces there is the possibility for fire to travel. Does anybody have any experience with this? I have worked on buildings with 1" of foam/furring strips/clapboards. It could create a chimmney effect. Fire stops anyone... >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 7 09:45:56 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA14044 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:45:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA25537 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11247; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:41:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:36:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10515 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:36:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from lms03.us.ibm.com (lms03.ny.us.ibm.com [198.133.22.39]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10507 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from US.IBM.COM (d04lms03.raleigh.ibm.com [9.37.164.195]) by lms03.us.ibm.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09020 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:37:15 -0500 Received: by US.IBM.COM (Soft-Switch LMS 2.0) with snapi via D04AU014 id 5040300008018446; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:39:04 -0500 From: Gary Hamilton To: Message-ID: <5040300008018446000002L062*@MHS> Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:39:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 441 Good day, We will be building in the Central Texas area (30+ inches of rain, moderate to high humidity and long very hot summers). I have spent some time looking at buildings with Ram Earth walls and reading about them. I like the idea and the look. However, the R-values are very low. Are these walls really extremely poor insulation? The Rammed Earth House (D. Easton) book attempts to explain away the low R-values but did not convince me (or explain the discrepancy well enough for me to understand). The engineered wall systems such as recycled foam blocks with concrete channels are advertised as having much higher R-values than earth walls. Is this verified independently anywhere (i.e., besides their advertisements)? Thanks for your input. Regards, Gary D. Hamilton ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 7 09:45:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA14048 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:45:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA25543 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:45:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11352; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:42:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:37:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10631 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:37:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10622 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:37:26 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id JFP09401; Fri, 07 Nov 1997 09:38:43 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:45:53 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Retrofitting a roof Message-ID: <19971107.084553.3646.3.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <1.5.4.32.19971031200419.006cc204@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 5-6,12-13,19-20,25-26,30-31,34 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 442 This week Texans voted in a Homeowner's Equity Loan amendment to the State Constitution. Prior to this we could not secure a loan or second mortgage based on the equity of our homes. The history behind this was, it kept aggressive creditors (like banks) from taking people's homes and forcing them to live in the street. Too bad farmers didn't have that kind of protection.. No sooner than this amendment was passed the financial institutions launched full page newspaper and magazine ads inviting homeowners to "come on down" and go further into debt. Another indication of this radical change in the law are the number of phone calls we get in the evening now from contractors looking for work. I have to admit it looks pretty tempting We are one of those silly people who bought a 30 year old home with the stars in our eyes. It has always been our dream to fix it up and make it a efficient, renewable, sustainable home. After all, that is what we do for others. While we have been making changes and strides, we have had to admit to ourselves that the time and the economics just have not been there. This home was built by the original owner who basically cut every corner he could to get this thing erected. (Wondered why the price was so good.) It's greatest flaw is the roof which is a flat tar and gravel monstrosity. It has always been our wish to retrofit this thing with a more attractive and efficient structure. We now have contractors calling offering aluminum (yhew), steel, shake, foam and everything but dirt, straw, sticks and bricks. I must admit that I am not sure what material offers the most economical, efficient, sustainable solution in this application. I respect many of the opinions I see on this group and others. I sure could use a good idea right about now. Welcome your opinions. (Consider the region.) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 7 09:47:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA14089 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:47:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA26049 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:47:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11529; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:44:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:39:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10899 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:39:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin46.mail.aol.com (mrin46.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.156]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10883 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:39:28 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin46.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA08223; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:42:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:42:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971107094231_797624624@mrin46.mail.aol.com> To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@valley.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Ecovillage at Ithaca report Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 443 Marc Rosenbaum wrote: << * I would build better building envelopes and spend somewhat less on the heating system. I would particularly specify better glazing - they bought very good windows and then didn't spend the very small marginal amount to upgrade from clear triple glazing to triple glazing with low emissivity glass and argon gas fill. >> Good catch! In the more mature markets of the north, the upcharge for a reasonable low-e coating and gas filling is often less than $1/sq ft. (I have seen it from $0.55 to $0.85) Unfortunately, as we move south, we see the "less mature" markets with their less energy efficient constructions just emerging from the "single glazing" quagmire. Chris Mathis ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 7 09:54:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA14181 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:54:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA27640 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:54:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11874; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:51:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:47:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11603 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:46:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin83.mail.aol.com (mrin83.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.193]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11599 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:46:54 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin83.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA05280; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:49:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:49:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971107094936_-156660686@mrin83.mail.aol.com> To: cdodge@interport.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Design solution Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 444 Clarence wrote about: << The challenge of the site is that the views are to the NNE, just over the crest of a hill to the SW, but on fairly level ground. My query to you all for leads to design solutions on such a site in a manner which maximizes solar gain from the south and views to the more or less north. I guess the meat of the problem is how does one protect (read insulate) the building to the north and at the same time make views available from the same direction. Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net >> Clarence: This problem is NOT unique. North and west facing views put serious performance requirements on the windows we choose. Without going in to all the heat transfer stuff, at your latitude I recommend north facing windows with a very low U-factor (less than 0.35) and that include a high visible transmittance glass. As always, look for NFRC certified and labeled products. You may also want to make sure that a low conductivity spacer (not aluminum) is used in the insulated glass unit to help avoid any pesky edge condensation in the wintertime. Insulate well. Tight construction. Systems approach. I am sure others will offer their thoughts on these subjects. Regards, Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 7 10:51:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA15305 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA11424 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:51:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14330; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:47:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:42:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13895 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:42:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13887 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:42:31 -0500 (EST) From: woodeneagle@juno.com Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KkR16567; Fri, 07 Nov 1997 10:45:56 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 06:09:33 -0900 Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #430 Message-ID: <19971107.064943.11150.17.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199711062321.SAA18804@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-8 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 445 mike: Every snowflake in an avalanche pleads "not Guilty." When entire forests are burning in Indonesia and the Amazon, should we worry about fuel choices that reduce CO2 emissions from a new heating system? Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 7 10:51:56 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA15314 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:51:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA11575 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:51:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14401; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:48:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:44:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13978 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:43:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13974 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:43:48 -0500 (EST) From: woodeneagle@juno.com Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KlM16567; Fri, 07 Nov 1997 10:47:01 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 06:09:33 -0900 Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #430 Message-ID: <19971107.065143.11150.22.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199711062321.SAA18804@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-8 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 446 mike: Every snowflake in an avalanche pleads "not Guilty." When entire forests are burning in Indonesia and the Amazon, should we worry about fuel choices that reduce CO2 emissions from a new heating system? Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 7 11:17:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA16003 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:17:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA18167 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:17:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15488; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:13:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:09:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14974 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:08:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14965 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:08:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA09686 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:11:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from den-co12-06.ix.netcom.com(204.31.232.198) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma009645; Fri Nov 7 10:11:25 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19971107111409.007c3210@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: eeb98ord@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 11:14:09 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion Howard (EEBA)" Subject: GBlist: "R-40" Walls - getting there Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 447 "R-40" Walls: (tools to get there) ----------------- question #1 / where are you located and have you looked at the building as a system? Just super-insulating is not necessarily going to result in the best performance over the life cycle of the building. I would recommend obtaining a "Builders Guide" - such as those developed by EEBA members - and consulting with the State Energy Office in your area. Also, professional associations like EEBA, Affordable Comfort, AIA and US Green Building Council offer training in building techniques for sustainability. In this way you would first develop an understanding of the building as a system, and hence be able to avoid potentially serious building performance problems. Once you have arrived at the NEED for such a wall (remember one of the top concerns in green building is _reduction_ of materials used in the building and selection of appropriate materials for the building life cycle) there are many options. There are several texts on this topic from sources like Cutter Publications "Energy Design Update" and from various Dept. of Energy sponsored studies. With super-insulating, location of insulation and air-barrier components are vital in severe climates, to avoid moisture problems. If you want a really "green" wall, and wish to avoid fiberglass, plastic foam, or other petroleum-based insulation, then be prepared for some "thickness" if you are going to install cellulose (~ R3.1 to R3.7 inch depending on properties). Consult the ASHRAE Fundamentals Handbook (1997) chapter on thermal and moisture performance for consensus thermal/physical properties. We frequently recommend cellulose, but in fact most insulating materials can show benefits in excess of overall costs (including environmental externalities) when assessed over a sufficiently long life-cycle. Life cycle assessment tools now exist, but problems have emerged standardizing them due to competitive interests concerned their products may look "less-green." Also, take into account the framing thermal conductance in the wall, since materials like wood, engineered wood trusses, or steel studs (!!) are more heat conductive than most insulating materials. Many calculation guides state "framing factors" in the range of 15% to 25% of the overall wall in cross section. This is another good reason to use the OVE (Optimum Value Engineering) system developed in the late 1970's at the NAHB Research Center (Lee Fisher and Art Johnson were the developers, I seem to recall). This publication was recently republished due to high demand,(NAHBRC 301-249-4000) but with a slightly different title and some new information included. So by reducing the framing lower overall thermal transmittance results. Also,, if your are willing to include petroleum based materials in your project, the consider Structural Insulated Panel (SIP) construction. A good source for information on SIP is the SIP Association, in Washington, DC (operated by Steven Winter Associates). There are quite a few manufacturers that you may find locally, to avoid increased embodied energy of long distance transport. So anyway, this message gives you some tools to determine the wall you need, rather than pronouncing a specific method; actually -- as usual -- there are several "right" answers depending on the climate, site, moisture regime, and so forth. We hope it is beneficial. => Bion Howard --------------- PS -- for more information on the specifics of selecting an energy efficient building thermal envelope, you might wish to post a similar message to the Energy Efficient Building List: use this link, Subject: R-40 Wall System - advice? Message: (repeat your message here) This approach permits posting to this moderated list without subscribing. -------------------------------- You wrote GBL - >Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:12:50 -0500 >From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us >Subject: GBlist: High R-value walls in a stick-built house? >any thoughts on the "best" way to get to r-40 walls in >a *stick-built* house? (the r-60 ceiling shouldn't be >a problem) i would like to minimize lumber use, especially >large dimension lumber. as usual, cost is also a factor. >--------------------------------- Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology POB 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 (410) 867-8000 Fax: (301( 889-0889 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 7 12:33:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA17736 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:33:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA08178 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:33:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18603; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:29:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:25:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18341 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:25:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from bcs.bccom.com (bcs.bccom.com [204.255.144.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18334 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:25:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (pm-046.bccom.com [204.255.145.46]) by bcs.bccom.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA23382 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:29:34 -0500 Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:29:34 -0500 Message-Id: <199711071829.NAA23382@bcs.bccom.com> X-Sender: rfried@bccom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Rona Fried Subject: GBlist: Market Info Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 448 I'm doing market research on where the "hot spots" (best market opportunities) will be in the commercial and public sector green building industry over the next few years. I know all the usual places for research.. if any of you have compelling info on this I'd appreciate... and examples of up and coming buildings in these sectors. Thanks! Rona Fried, Ph.D. Executive Editor, Sustainable Business Network Journal http://www.envirolink.org/sbn 516-423-3277 -- The Sustainable Business Network is a focal point for the sustainable business community on the Internet. It consists of The SBN Journal, Library, Sustainable Business Opportunities and, Green Dream Jobs -- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 7 14:27:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA20143 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:27:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA09970 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:27:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23013; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:23:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:19:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22498 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:19:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22494 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:18:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.96] (pa-ppp11.hevanet.com [204.119.60.96]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21541 for ; Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:22:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199711070115.UAA08325@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:16:09 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: re:High R-value walls in a stick-built house ? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 449 Hi, Rob-- Yeah, I watched some guys trying to tilt up a double wall the way you describe it--they have since retired on disability from their hernias! Or maybe it was from injuries sustained when their jacks slipped on the wet deck, I can't remember. It's a lot easier to build the Canadian way, eh? ;^) Mike >on Thu, 6 Nov 1997 >Mega-memory Mike O'Brien" wrote: > >> Oregonians stole a good idea for a double wall from those >> clever Canadians*. It's framed normally with 2x4's for the >> exterior bearing wall. Then interior 2x4 walls are framed >> and tipped up into place to leave a 3-1/2" gap between the >> inner and outer walls. [ snip ] > >Hello MMMike and Thieving Oregonians; > >Seems that when you guys stole the "good idea" you forgot to >steal the instruction manual. > >In the Olde Days, what we would've done here, is make the >interior wall load-bearing (studs @16" o/c). This wall would also >carry the services. > >The VDR is placed on the outside of this wall and sheathed. Then >a second, non-load-bearing curtain wall (2x3 or 2x4 studs @24" >o/c, staggered so as to not align with the interior wall studs) >is built right on top of it (to ensure that door and window >openings are perfectly aligned.) > >Then the curtain wall is temporarily blocked-up from the bearing >wall to any desired thickeness (3.5", 5.5", 7.25" etc.) and 1/2" >plywood plates are affixed to join the two walls together at the >top and bottom plates, window and door openings. > >The blocks are then removed and the space between the two walls >are fitted with a continous layer of insulation (anywhere from 4" >to 8" nominal)... the curtain wall cavity is insulated (another >3-4" nominal) ...and then the curtain wall is sheathed. > >This places at least 2/3 of the total insulation value of the >wall on the cold side of the VDR, so there isn't a problem with >condensation in the insulation of the bearing wall. > >The wall is then tilted-up, ...insulated, sheathed, and with VDR >installed from the get-go. > >Since the interior wall is load-bearing, the curtain wall can >be cantilevered out past the edge of the foundation, >consuming less valuable interior floor area (as would be the case >with the Oregonian method). > >By having the VDR on the outside of the interior bearing wall and >backed up by sheathing, the plumbers, electricians and drywallers >can go about their business without anyone having to worry about >them violating the integrity of the VDR. It also makes >remodelling easier. > >Although one is in effect, building two walls, the volume of >framing lumber used would be less than a normal 2x6 wall (studs >@16" o/c). No comparison WRT R-value though. > >-- >Rob Tom >---------- * ------------ >be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca >Kanata, Ontario, Canada >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 8 07:57:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA12967 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 07:57:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA18085 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 07:57:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA14522; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 07:52:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 8 Nov 1997 07:47:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA14187 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 07:47:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA14183 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 07:47:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.99.3]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 549-35819U10000L100S0) with ESMTP id AAA9038 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:04:40 +0000 Message-ID: <34645AB3.F5A7E704@which.net> Date: Sat, 08 Nov 1997 12:27:32 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Net Carbon emissions issue & biomass X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.32.19971103220819.0069e2b4@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 450 I am a bit new to this and I was worried when I asked the question that Jorg would take it as criticism, but the response has been really interesting. However, I am having difficulty understanding any difference between new and old CO2. Sequestration is surely simply the conversion of CO2 to biomass. I can’t see that time comes into it. Do I misunderstand sequestered? I have read somewhere that the quantity of solar energy arriving daily is orders of magnitude greater than the consumption of fuels (fossil or recent). I fondly imagine that large scale reforestation projects to convert that energy could balance the consumption. Jorg is hoping that he has enough land to plant sufficient trees to more than balance his own consumption. I would also be interested to know what area of forest is required to balance a given energy value of firewood. Jorg wrote: we emit about 25% of the greenhouse gases by burning wood that any of our neighbours do burning natural gas in their suburban plastic houses. Jorg Is this to do with the different fuel, or the method of using it, or the quantity used? Is this not because the house is partially solar heated, better insulated, more efficient and simply uses less fuel? Malcolm Scott Bion Howard (EEBA) wrote: > malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: > > > >> Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > >> (burning) Wood does not increase the net CO2 to the greenhouse > effect. > >> > > I wonder why you say that? I thought burning any fuel contributed > > CO2 to the atmoshere. > > > > Malcolm Scott > > > -------------------------- > This question is actually interesting and raises a finer point. "Net" > is > key to this discussion. > > As far as gross (alleged by some) climate altering gaseous emissions > due to > human activities, it is the large scale combustion of fossil fuels > such as > coal and oil / derivitives (gasoline, fuel oils, kero, jet...) that > releases > > > sequestered < CO2, and other organics into the atmosphere. > > This carbon load was put "underground" 75 to 375 million years ago > (you > geologists out there correct this range if its too far off) when > massive > carboniferous forests and biomass of huge creatures (dinosaurs, etc.) > were > abundant. The earth's climate was then very much a greenhouse and > with no > humans around to slash and burn everything vegetative, it formed under > > sediments, the mass what we are now mining as coal, oil and gas. Some > > petro deposits theoretically may have come from comets and asteroids > colliding with earth, but this is as yet unproven. During this period > of > ~300 million years, CO2 levels ranged from 10x to 100 times current > levels. > Data shows that much of this concentration was related to volcanic > activity (Gribben, p 108). > > Anyway, the carbon emissions from wood/biomass burning of short > time-scale > [[20 to 400 years depending on source of timber from which the > fuel-wood > was obtained]] are still part of the atmospheric carbon / hydrological > > cycle since this biomass has not been sequestered. > > Biologically, many plant species are enjoying a CO2 rich atmosphere > (which > does not make what we are doing to it OK...) and "CO2 limited" crops > may > grow slightly higher yields. However, the importance of replacing > combustion of _sequestered_ carbon forms, with biomass (in the > "current > inventory" of atmospheric carbon -- remember the human -v- geological > time > scale here...) and other renewable energy forms is IMPORTANT, since it > > avoids a _net_ increase in CO2 concentration in the atmosphere. > > Right now, biomas burning is of the same order of magnitude/ yr as > fossil > fuel and industrial energy related sources of emmissions (IPCC, 1991) > but > this does not recognize the fact that the petro-combustion represents > in > essense a NEW source of CO2 to the atmosphere it has not see for ~ > over 80 > million years. > > References: > > 1. Gribben, J. 1978 "Climate Change." Cambridge Press. (published > during > a time when climatologists had been more concerned about the onset of > another ice age.) > > 2. IPCC Response Strategies Working Group Reports, 1991, pg. 20 > (emissions of climate change pollutants) > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 8 17:02:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA26866 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA10519 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:02:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02697; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:58:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:53:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02296 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:53:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (mail.onaustralia.com.au [139.134.5.225]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02292 for ; Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:53:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ma-a02-pool-150.tmns.net.au (ma-a02-pool-150.tmns.net.au [139.134.95.150]) by teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id wa725058 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 07:43:32 +1100 From: "Brian Woodward" To: "Gary Hamilton" , Subject: GBlist: Re: R-values of Rammed Earth Walls Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:38:28 +1100 Message-ID: <01bcecf3$3c12bbc0$LocalHost@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 451 Gary D Hamilton said >We will be building in the Central Texas area (30+ inches of rain, moderate to >high humidity and long very hot summers). I have spent some time looking at >buildings with Ram Earth walls and reading about them. I like the idea and the >look. However, the R-values are very low. Are these walls really extremely poor >insulation? Earth construction has moderate not extremely poor' insulation values, similar to other masonry materials (brick, stone, concrete). However the thermal performance of a building is not only based on the insulation capability of the building fabric. The thermal capacity of the fabric can play an even more important role in some climates and particularly in areas with large temperature differences between day and night. The building needs to be designed with Passive Solar principles to take advantage of this. We have long hot summers here, with temperatures often above 30degC and sometimes as high as 44degC, but night time temperatures usually drop to 20degc or so. With proper operation our mudbrick house usually stays below 25degC on the hottest days, without any artificial cooling. Winter nighttime temperature often fall below freezing sometimes as low as -5 or -6degC, but day temperatures rise to 18 or 19degC, so even without supplementary heating (we usually have a fuel stove going) the inside temperature stays above 14 or 15degC. Please contact me if you need further information, but I am sure there are locals who will be able to help. Bye the way I think mudbrick (Adobe) is far superior to rammed earth. Brian Woodward, Earthways, Australia. Qualified Architect -specialising in and living with Sustainable Technologies, Low Cost, Owner Built, Passive Solar, Loadbearing Mudbrick construction, Composting Toilets, and Solar Electricity. -Overseas Aid Work in Nepal and South Africa. -Earthways Sustainable Lifestyles Resource Center, Wollombi, N.S.W. Australia. e-mail brianwoodward@bigpond.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 9 07:04:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA05167 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 07:04:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA22894 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 07:04:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22412; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 07:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 9 Nov 1997 06:55:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA21918 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 06:55:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA21914 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 06:55:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.99.111]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 549-35819U10000L100S0) with ESMTP id AAA7352 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 12:12:45 +0000 Message-ID: <3465A1CF.4757C85F@which.net> Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 11:43:12 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Dollar Value of CO2 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.3.32.19971024085346.00693708@cyberia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 452 Marcus Sheffer wrote: You might also want to convert CO2 numbers to something more meaningful like acres of trees planted. Trees - #ofCO2/5175=acres of trees. Sorry for my ignorance, but does # = 1 pound? and does this mean that 5175 pounds of CO2 are absorbed by 1 acre of trees per year? Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 9 07:04:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA05172 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 07:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA22929 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 07:04:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22414; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 07:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 9 Nov 1997 06:56:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA21930 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 06:55:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA21925 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 06:55:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.99.111]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 549-35819U10000L100S0) with ESMTP id AAA7354 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 12:12:49 +0000 Message-ID: <3465A20D.1CD089AB@which.net> Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 11:44:13 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Net Carbon emissions issue & biomass X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.32.19971103220819.0069e2b4@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 453 Bion Howard (EEBA) wrote: > This carbon load was put "underground" 75 to 375 million years ago > (you geologists out there correct this range if its too far off) If you are saying it took 300 Myrs for the fossil fuels to be sequestered and we have burned say 10%? of it in 100 yrs, then it will take 30 Myrs to return to the CO2 level of 100 yrs ago. Possibly much longer if the conversion rate is related to the CO2 levels. So no amount of reforestation could compensate for the fossil fuel consumption. Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 9 09:46:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA06001 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:46:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA06712 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:46:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25335; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:43:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:37:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25078 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:37:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25073 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:37:23 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 10547 invoked by uid 0); 9 Nov 1997 14:42:56 -0000 Received: from ppp-13.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.206?) (198.175.11.206) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 9 Nov 1997 14:42:56 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 09:53:37 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: minimizing formaldehyde in new construction Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 454 I'm building an addition to my house in Northern New York State. Back in the 70's I lived in a house that was injected with UFFI (urea-formaldehyde foam insulation) and I believe I became sensitized to formaldehyde at that time. So, I am trying to avoid ALL sources of formaldehyde in the new construction. I could avoid all manufactured products but construction would be easier if I could find some acceptable materials for sheathing, roof decking, etc. Does anyone know of any formaldehyde-free plywood? I've heard rumors that it was either being made or was soon to be made, but a few local inquiries have led nowhere. And, what glues are they using? I don't want to substitute one problem for another. UFFI was supposed to be the ideal solution for retrofitting insulation into old homes. Ha! All the OSB and particle board I've ever seen (and smelled) contains so much binder that even if the binder was formaldehyde-free, I would be very reluctant to use it because what other chemicals are being used and perhaps emitted? Many people who get sensitized to formaldehyde also develop multiple chemical sensitivities (MCS). I don't know whether I have that to any severe degree, but the best way to avoid it is to limit exposures to a wide range of chemicals. Does anyone know anything about what the gray insulation board and the black asphalt-impregnated board are made from? Unfortunately, formaldehyde resins are added to almost everything these days. Many paper products have it added and I wonder whether the gray insulation board is made from recycled paper or virgin cellulose and whether it has added binders. The black stuff seems to be held together by some petroleum product, which certainly doesn't reasure me that it won't also emit volatile organic compounds (VOC's). Does anyone know whether sheetrock backing paper has formaldehyde added? If so, are there any sources for formaldehyde-free sheetrock? I'm planning to use blown-in cellulose insulation. As far as I know it doesn't have lots of added formaldehyde resin. I read somewhere that fiberglas has 10-20% formaldehyde resin binders, not to mention it's asbestos-like fiber problem. Does anyone know how much residual formaldehyde cellulose might contain from it's past history as newsprint? The smell of fresh newspapers (the ink?) is irritating to me. But I'm hoping the VOC's have largely disipated or been washed out in the conversion to insulation. And this brings me to a related question? How good a barrier is a 6 mil polyethylene sheet to VOC's? Anybody know? One chemist I spoke to guessed that formaldehyde might be able to permeate through such a sheet, but he had know specific knowledge. Even it the poly was a good barrier, I am trying to only use formaldehyde-free materials outside of the barrier because it seems to me all the interior air in a house comes through windows, doors, cracks and vents from the exterior of the house. So if the exterior is "bathed" in formaldehyde vapors, a certain amount is going to get inside. Has anyone on the list actually built for occupants with MCS? All information or opinions on these issues is welcome. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 9 13:52:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA09061 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:52:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA26504 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:52:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03323; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:47:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:42:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02700 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:42:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02696; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:42:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from port-sac10.cwo.com (port-sac10.cwo.com [207.173.173.125]) by mail.cwo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA29182; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:45:49 -0800 Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:45:49 -0800 Message-Id: <199711091845.KAA29182@mail.cwo.com> X-Sender: nistone@mail.cwo.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding-digest@crest.org From: nehemiah i stone Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #429 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 455 Per the excerpt below: >From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us >Subject: GBlist: High R-value walls in a stick-built house? > >any thoughts on the "best" way to get to r-40 walls in >a *stick-built* house? (the r-60 ceiling shouldn't be >a problem) i would like to minimize lumber use, especially >large dimension lumber. as usual, cost is also a factor. > Question: why stick with stick built? Did you consider other mehtods which can get you to an R-40 easier? Straw bale walls? Stress skin panels? If you are goint to achieve an R-40, my guess is that either of these would be at lower cost than whatever you could do to your stick built to make it R-40. Nehemiah Stone California Energy Commission ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 9 16:28:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA11372 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:28:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA29223 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:28:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09145; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:25:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:20:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA08844 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08839 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 16:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.51] (pa-ppp39.hevanet.com [204.119.60.51]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26512 for ; Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:24:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:23:38 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: minimizing formaldehyde in new construction Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 456 Hi, Mystery Writer-- Almost two years later, I still can't spend any time around my mom's new cabinets because of the formaldehyde! There's a builder here in Portland, Cecil Smith, who specializes in homes for clients with MCS. He uses as much solid wood lumber as possible. (Some shear panels have to be plywood for our earthquake zone.) One of Cecil's houses looks a lot like houses did when I was a kid--diagonal sheathing, let-in bracing, solid lumber floor joists, etc., with the addition of a lot of metal ties and straps to get it all to hang together without sheathing. Cecil is currently building a "Healthier House" demonstration project sponsored by the American Lung Association, Enron/Earth Smart and Physicians Assn of Clackamas County. The other ALA Health House demonstration houses have had some good ideas for reducing HCHO; check their web sites. Have you seen the report "Determination of Formaldehyde and Toluene Diisocyanate Emissions from Indoor Residential Sources" published by the California EPA? If not call Goddess of the Air Peggy Jenkins at the Air Resources Board (916)323-1504. The report lists relative HCHO emissions rates of sources like wood composites, fiberglass insulation and nail polish (aieee!). I understand that Medite II and Medex medium density fiberboard and Wheatboard are made with methyl diisocyanate adhesive, so they do not emit HCHO (beyond the natural level of wood). They can be used for interior cabinet frames, shelves, stair treads, and underlayment. Louisiana Pacific FiberBond and James Hardie HardiPlank are also options to particleboard underlayment. I think encapsulated Miraflex "springy" fiberglass is not supposed to have binder in it? What about building options like foam block walls or slab floor or metal-web floor trusses that would eliminate some of the HCHO sources? If you must frame, one concept to consider--make sure there is a continuous air barrier on the interior side of the envelope. The barrier is a good idea for several reasons, but one is that you can then use an HRV to run the house under a slight positive pressure (Moisture mavens will pounce on this, I'm sure) to prevent the transport of HCHO from the cavities. You can have a blower door contractor check the barrier. Ditto for sealing ducts in attics or cavities, so they don't pull HCHO along with attic air. I don't know if HCHO can get through 6-mil poly sheet, but you could do your own rough experiment to find out. Tape a source in between sheets of poly, warm it up, and see if you can smell any HCHO. A sniff test might work for the fiber panels you asked about too. (Alert your doctor first, OK?) If you have to have some sources like plywood shear panels, you might slow down the rate of HCHO emissions by applying a water-resistant sealant to the material. Hal Levin is a very good source of IAQ information. You might e-mail him (his e-mail address should be in the greenbuilding archives). And John Bower would have some good ideas, too. Best, Mike >I'm building an addition to my house in Northern New York State. Back in >the 70's I lived in a house that was injected with UFFI (urea-formaldehyde >foam insulation) and I believe I became sensitized to formaldehyde at that >time. So, I am trying to avoid ALL sources of formaldehyde in the new >construction. > >I could avoid all manufactured products but construction would be easier if >I could find some acceptable materials for sheathing, roof decking, etc. >Does anyone know of any formaldehyde-free plywood? I've heard rumors that >it was either being made or was soon to be made, but a few local inquiries >have led nowhere. And, what glues are they using? I don't want to >substitute one problem for another. UFFI was supposed to be the ideal >solution for retrofitting insulation into old homes. Ha! > >All the OSB and particle board I've ever seen (and smelled) contains so >much binder that even if the binder was formaldehyde-free, I would be very >reluctant to use it because what other chemicals are being used and perhaps >emitted? Many people who get sensitized to formaldehyde also develop >multiple chemical sensitivities (MCS). I don't know whether I have that to >any severe degree, but the best way to avoid it is to limit exposures to a >wide range of chemicals. > >Does anyone know anything about what the gray insulation board and the >black asphalt-impregnated board are made from? Unfortunately, formaldehyde >resins are added to almost everything these days. Many paper products have >it added and I wonder whether the gray insulation board is made from >recycled paper or virgin cellulose and whether it has added binders. The >black stuff seems to be held together by some petroleum product, which >certainly doesn't reasure me that it won't also emit volatile organic >compounds (VOC's). > >Does anyone know whether sheetrock backing paper has formaldehyde added? >If so, are there any sources for formaldehyde-free sheetrock? > >I'm planning to use blown-in cellulose insulation. As far as I know it >doesn't have lots of added formaldehyde resin. I read somewhere that >fiberglas has 10-20% formaldehyde resin binders, not to mention it's >asbestos-like fiber problem. Does anyone know how much residual >formaldehyde cellulose might contain from it's past history as newsprint? >The smell of fresh newspapers (the ink?) is irritating to me. But I'm >hoping the VOC's have largely disipated or been washed out in the >conversion to insulation. > >And this brings me to a related question? How good a barrier is a 6 mil >polyethylene sheet to VOC's? Anybody know? One chemist I spoke to guessed >that formaldehyde might be able to permeate through such a sheet, but he >had know specific knowledge. > >Even it the poly was a good barrier, I am trying to only use >formaldehyde-free materials outside of the barrier because it seems to me >all the interior air in a house comes through windows, doors, cracks and >vents from the exterior of the house. So if the exterior is "bathed" in >formaldehyde vapors, a certain amount is going to get inside. > >Has anyone on the list actually built for occupants with MCS? > >All information or opinions on these issues is welcome. > > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 10 09:38:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA27549 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:38:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA10205 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:38:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05754; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:34:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:29:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05453 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:29:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin44.mail.aol.com (mrin44.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05449 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:29:44 -0500 (EST) From: Schawe@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin44.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA17487 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:32:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:32:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971110093253_76245528@mrin44.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #432 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 457 Gary Hamilton wrote: >We will be building in the Central Texas area (30+ inches of rain, moderate to >high humidity and long very hot summers). I have spent some time looking at >buildings with Ram Earth walls and reading about them. . . . . Not sure about R-values but I read a story in the Austin paper this weekend about "building green" and one of the comments about rammed earth was the SMELL. Problems with mildew and its odors, etc. Anybody else experience this? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 10 09:53:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA27684 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:53:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA14279 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:53:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06463; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:49:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:44:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06055 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:44:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06050 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:44:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.76]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 1.52) id 8448900 ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:48:49 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971110214545.006a18e8@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:45:45 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: CO2 and Trees In-Reply-To: <199711100700.CAA27474@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 458 Questions asked: >Sorry for my ignorance, but does # = 1 pound? and does this mean that >5175 pounds of CO2 are absorbed by 1 acre of trees per year? > >Malcolm Scott You are obviously not ignorant. The # sign equals pounds. You are correct on both counts. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 10 13:06:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA00787 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:06:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA21078 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:06:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14908; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:02:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:57:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14531 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV (dcsmtp.wictok7.epa.gov [161.80.160.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14527 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:57:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:38:04 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:31:22 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Some misconceptions about groundsource systems. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 459 I am forwarding this message at the request of Harvey Sachs of the Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium in reply to a recent thread on this list. >>> Harvey Sachs 11/08/97 12:24pm >>> Mr. Hart - In a recent posting to GreenBuildings, you raised several areas of concern, particularly addressing some questions that may not be applicable to current technology and applications. Please allow me to respond, and I invite you and all other readers to visit our web site, for additional information. The text that follows paraphrases your text and then offers responses: Hart: Are GeoExchange (ground source heat pumps, ground water source heat pumps, surface water heat pumps, and all other systems that exchange heat with the earth) really green? GHPC: In most cases, they are the greenest available mechanical heating, cooling, and water heating systems . According to the EPA report, "Space Conditioning: the Next Frontier," which based its conclusions on simulations for six diverse locations, emerging GeoExchange systems are the most efficient alternative available, and the most cost-effective (life cycle cost) where there are enough degree days to justify the capital cost. The EPA report is available from EPA and GHPC. GeoExchange is important to the green community in another way, too: We have a very strong synergy with energy-efficient construction. Because the ground or water heat exchanger, the part outside the building, is expensive, and because its expense rises almost linearly with capacity, choosing GeoExchange forces designers to think about the distribution system and envelope, and to make energy efficiency a primary concern. Thus, I'd suggest that GeoExchange is doing some of the heavy lifting to help the building industry assimilate efficiency - which drives down the costs. Hart: "The buried coils tend to degrade after about five years due to some metal incompatibility issues (is this still the case?)" GHPC: The heat exchangers for all water-source systems today are made of PE-3408 high density polyethylene pipe, the same material as used to carry natural gas. This pipe is connected by heat fusion or a certified "stab" connector, both technologies that are taken directly from the gas industry, which has a strong record of concern about avoiding leaks. Manufacturers offer warranties in the 20-25 year range, and extended warranties to 50 years. As an anecdotal indication of confidence, in Switzerland these systems are typically installed under the foundation during construction. I am told that Swiss mortgages frequently run 100 years, so someone's Conservative Swiss Banker seems to be confident that this will keep working. Metal tubing (typically copper) is only used in "direct exchange" systems which circulate the refrigerant directly in the ground, and I estimate that today only a few percent of the installations use DX technology - although it has great promise for the future. Copper tubing is not appropriate under some, relatively rare, conditions such as anoxic, reducing, soils in boggy areas. DX is to be avoided where copper water pipes cannot be used outdoors, and should not give problems where copper water pipes have historically performed acceptably. Hart: "Massive amounts of dirt need to be moved to bury the coils. In Minnesota I have heard that trenches don't work so you need to dig a huge 10 foot deep hole to bury the coils in." GHPC: The dirt moved depends on the installation method chosen, and on the frame of reference. In general, it is small compared to basement excavation, but may be a few times larger for trench systems than the trenching done for utility connections. Common residential installation practices for ground source systems are: --> horizontal trenching. Exactly like the process for installing all other underground utilities (water, sewage, cable, electricity,...). Not very disruptive in the context of new construction, which is not a pretty sight, but not preferred for retrofits, since several hundred feet of trench are required for a 2 - 3 ton system. --> horizontal, "trenchless," installed with a horizontal boring machine, and becoming a cost-effective and preferred technology where the soil profile is deep enough. --> vertical drilling. Slim boreholes are drilled a couple of hundred feet deep, the pre-tested "U-bend" heat exchanger is installed, and the hole completed with grout or better to insure thermal conductivity and groundwater protection. --> We see increasing interest in alternatives, such as the use of augers to install vertical coils, but they are not yet common. Hart: "Electric heat pumps create more externalities (pollution from electric generation mostly) than a natural gas heat pump does (depending on the mix of fuels that your electric utility uses)." GHPC: NOT GUILTY. According to EBN data I looked at yesterday, GeoExchange has at least a 30% advantage in CO2 over gas-fired reciprocating engine heat pumps (or any other commercial technology). The argument can be made that control of criteria pollutants is easier with central systems. Whether or not you accept this, this highly efficient end use strategy can work well as a "pull" for the centralized renewables (wind, solar thermal). Hart: "Do the natural gas heat pumps pull heat out of the air (instead of the earth)? If so, that works in some climates but in extreme heating climates, pulling heat out of -20 F air is pretty inefficient. I guess I need to get some clarification on how a natural gas heat pump works." GHPC: The only residential-scale natural gas heat pump that I know of on the market is the York Triathlon. It has not been a best-seller; it is technically very sophisticated. It would be inappropriate for me to characterize it further, but York has actively promoted the machine and I am sure would provide much additional information. Hart: "Has anybody ran the coils for an earth source heat pump through a body of water (lake, pond, etc.)? Water has many more BTUs in it that the earth does and it would take massive amounts of energy to lower the temperature of a significantly sized body of water." GHPC: Pond loops are an excellent idea, and frequently utilized. One needs a large enough water body to assure that it will not freeze in the winter, but there are good guidelines, and at least one specialist design firm (Reva Brown, Geothermal Design Associates, (800)466-8131) for larger commercial systems. Typically, loose coils with about 300' of HDPE pipe per ton of load are used. Depending on climate, the required pons size is moderate. We are also seeing great interest in common loop systems for developments of the order of 1000 units. In these cases, water is taken from a lake, passed through the heat exchanger, and returned to the lake. In the cases where this is appropriate, the Btu flux (net addition or withdrawal) from the lake is a very, very, small fraction of the natural energy fluxes. Hart: "Obviously a pond in everyone's yard is not feasible but even a tank in the basement might have enough energy in it to run a heat pump." There was a lot of experimentation on buried tank systems in the 1970s, and we can send a summary of some of the research. send e-mail to and ask for RP-016 (free). The bottom lines are: --> if you look at the numbers, buried tanks are likely to be useful for daily heating/cooling cycles, but are much too small to store enough heat for seasonal applications. In fact, even phase changes (ice making) are hard to do for seasonal storage. --> Compared to pipes, tanks have an insignificant surface to volume ratio, so they do a poor job on heat exchange with the ground. Again, I invite you, and everyone else to visit our web site, download anything interesting, and consider joining GHPC if you are in the business. Thanks! Harvey M. Sachs, Ph.D. Technical Director ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 10 15:49:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA03111 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:49:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA27353 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:49:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20846; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:45:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:40:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20388 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:40:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA20371; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:40:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA13894; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:43:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-31.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.159) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma013820; Mon Nov 10 14:42:56 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971110154211.006a843c@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: eeb98ord@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:42:17 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org From: "Bion Howard (EEBA)" Subject: GBlist: R-40 wall (recommendation) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 460 "R-40" Walls (recommendation) (re. Mike Rogers Post on R40 walls) Good move, obtaining EEBA Field Guide! NAHB Research Center OVE approach, combined with a dual-wall / staggered stud arrangement would work with damp-applied cellulose (sprayed on). Here is an example of a wall I would build: 2x6 outer wall 24oc. 2x4 inner wall 24oc (SI = outer 5cm x 15.25cm, inner 5cm x 10cm, 61 cm OC) with the studs staggered so as to reduce framing-related thermal conductance. You could use low grade / recycled lumber, steel studs or mini-I/beams here. OVE reduces lumber by up to 20% in walls without affecting strength. A staggered stud wall will be quite strong at 24 OC... Avoid three stud corners (frame inner wall separately). Erect partition walls to butt to envelope walls whenever possible, rather than framing into insulated portion of wall. You should hold off GWB about 3 days to dry out following application of the damp-spray cellulose. Order the insulation application tech to reduce the spray moisture levels to the bare minimum. Then leave the GWB off until the last minute. _ALL_ wiring and other trades interactions with the wall should be done prior to insulating. The framers like this approach since it is really "two" walls, that can be framed later and tilted up. Once the outer (structural) wall is done, framing above can begin as well reducing delay. Also, outer wall framing lumber can be lower grade 2x6 (wood wane in this area is baaaad...) since it is not going to be the attachment surface for GWB. This can lower cost. Your insulator should like it since there is good access to the cavity in most cases. Be sure to foam all the joints, cracks and utility penetrations prior to spraying cellulose insulation. This assumes the exterior sheathing is in place. Some energy-builders even close the entire envelope and do a blower-door test prior to insulating to find the last remaining major air-leaks. --------------------- To quick-request a graphic of this wall section: (10bk GIF file, plan view) click here ...<... and type "send R40 wall graphic" as your message. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact: Bion Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology bhoward2@sprynet.com Web: < ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 10 16:52:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA03915 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:52:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA19175 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:52:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24438; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:48:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:43:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24036 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:43:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24032 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:43:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.99] (pa-ppp14.hevanet.com [204.119.60.99]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09566 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:47:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971110154211.006a843c@popd.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:38:29 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: R-40 wall (recommendation) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 461 OK, there's Bion's vote for a two-part double wall to reduce hernias and jacking disasters. Anybody else? Mike ;^) > "R-40" Walls (recommendation) (re. Mike Rogers Post on R40 walls) > >Good move, obtaining EEBA Field Guide! NAHB Research Center OVE approach, >combined with a dual-wall / staggered stud arrangement would work with >damp-applied cellulose (sprayed on). > >Here is an example of a wall I would build: 2x6 outer wall 24oc. 2x4 inner >wall 24oc (SI = outer 5cm x 15.25cm, inner 5cm x 10cm, 61 cm OC) with the >studs staggered so as to reduce framing-related thermal conductance. You >could use low grade / recycled lumber, steel studs or mini-I/beams here. >OVE reduces lumber by up to 20% in walls without affecting strength. A >staggered stud wall will be quite strong at 24 OC... Avoid three stud >corners (frame inner wall separately). Erect partition walls to butt to >envelope walls whenever possible, rather than framing into insulated >portion of wall. > >You should hold off GWB about 3 days to dry out following application of >the damp-spray cellulose. Order the insulation application tech to reduce >the spray moisture levels to the bare minimum. Then leave the GWB off >until the last minute. _ALL_ wiring and other trades interactions with the >wall should be done prior to insulating. > >The framers like this approach since it is really "two" walls, that can be >framed later and tilted up. Once the outer (structural) wall is done, >framing above can begin as well reducing delay. Also, outer wall framing >lumber can be lower grade 2x6 (wood wane in this area is baaaad...) since >it is not going to be the attachment surface for GWB. This can lower >cost. > >Your insulator should like it since there is good access to the cavity in >most cases. Be sure to foam all the joints, cracks and utility >penetrations prior to spraying cellulose insulation. This assumes the >exterior sheathing is in place. Some energy-builders even close the >entire envelope and do a blower-door test prior to insulating to find the >last remaining major air-leaks. >--------------------- >To quick-request a graphic of this wall section: (10bk GIF file, plan >view) click here ...... and type "send R40 >wall graphic" as your message. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Contact: Bion Howard, Principal > Building Environmental Science & Technology > bhoward2@sprynet.com > Web: >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building >News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to >greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 10 19:27:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA05642 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:27:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA13937 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:27:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00038; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:23:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:18:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA29681 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:18:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM ([207.49.88.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29676 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:18:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM by rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ua018506 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:20:32 -0500 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dan Cautley" Organization: NAHB Research Center, Inc. To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:24:01 -500 Subject: GBlist: GFX Study Reply-to: dcautley@nahbrc.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) X-Info: NT Mail Server Message-Id: <03203201501318@NAHBRC.ORG> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 462 I have received an overwhelming response from readers interested in the results of the GFX drainwater heat recovery performance study. I will plan to post an announcement on this list when results are available. The results will probably be available in several forms, including at least a summary on our web site at www.nahbrc.org. The study is just beginning, with the first installations planned for this week in Virginia. Preliminary results will be available by March. Dan Cautley dcautley@nahbrc.org Phone 800-638-8556 x706 Fax 301-249-3265 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 10 20:40:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA07371 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:40:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA17363 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:40:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA02328; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:37:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:32:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA02055 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from axil.intranet.ca (axil.intranet.ca [206.51.251.51]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA02048 for ; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:32:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.51.250.30] (ppp30.intranet.ca [206.51.250.30]) by axil.intranet.ca (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA02146; Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:33:20 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: larsson@mail.intranet.ca (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:35:44 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nils Larsson Subject: GBlist: Conference in Singapore Cc: anbleese@nus.edu.sg Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 463 Dear GBlist: My colleague Dr Lee Siew Eang of National University of Singapore is organizing a conference on buildings and the environment, and I am attaching information below for those who may have an opportunity to be in Singapore in February. The submission date for abstracts is November 15. Nils Larsson ******************** Dear Colleague, > > The School of Building & Real Estate is organising, in conjunction > with CIB, a conference on the subject of > > "BUILDING AND THE ENVIRONMENT IN ASIA" > > This is the first international conference of this kind organised in > Asia. I am sure there will be significant interest from the public and > private sectors agencies of this region. There will be much discussion > and sharing of experiences to do. I hope you will be able to support > our effort. > > We look forward to your contributions and attendance. > > Please read the brochure below. It can be viewed too from the web site > at the following address: > > http://www.bem.nus.sg/htm/conf-sem/bea-conf.htm > > Regards. > > Thank you. > > Dr Lee Siew Eang > Chairman > Organising Committee > > > > BUILDINGS AND THE ENVIRONMENT IN ASIA > > > 11-13 February 1998 > > Conrad International Hotel, Singapore > > Jointly Organised by > > School of Building & Real Estate, National University of Singapore > > And > > TG8- Environmental Assessment Methods > International Council for Building Research Studies and Documentation > > > Objectives and Themes > Buildings and the Environment are pressing concern of many major > cities of Asia. Many of these cities are at the threshold of massive > development. Timely access to relevant technologies and know-how on > buildings and their environment will enable these cities to flourish > into great Asian cities of the 21st century. This goes a long way > towards global environmental protection. > > The "Buildings and the Environment in Asia" has a special > significance. It serves to provide a forum where the current > technologies and know-how on buildings and the environment can be > presented and discussed. This will allow their relevance in relation > to the needs of Asia to be drawn naturally. It will be beneficial to > the Asian cities and other developing and advanced economies. Through > the conference, priorities for research and development in buildings > and the environment can be established. New areas of research with > particular reference to Asian cities can be identified. > > The themes of the conference are: > > * Sustainable development and the built environment > * Priorities and benchmarks for building and environmental > performance > * Integrated building and environmental assessment methods > * International and regional environmental concerns in Asia > * Case studies and project experience. > > Researchers, academicians, government officials, and professionals > related to the planning, design, development and the management of the > built environment should find the conference useful for the > presentation, collection and exchange of information concerning > buildings and the environment. > > International Scientific Committee > Reynaldo ALCANCES > Environmental Management Bureau, Dept. of > Energy and Natural Resources, Philippines > Roger BALDWIN > Building Research Establishment Ltd, UK > Philippe BERGERON > Regional Institute for Environmental Technology, > Singapore > Erik CHRISTOPHERSEN > Danish Building Research Institute, Denmark > Philippe Duchene-MARULLAZ > CSTB France > Hassan IBRAHIM > ASEAN-EC Energy Management Training and > Research Centre, Indonesia > Yuichiro KODAMA > Building Research Institute, Ministry of > Construction, Japan > LAM Siew Wah > Construction Industry Development Board, > Singapore > Nils LARSSON > Energy Efficiency Division, CANMET, Canada > LEE Siew Eang > National University of Singapore, Singapore > Lidia MORAWSKA > Queensland University of Technology, Australia > Ken YEANG > TR Hamzah and Yeang Architects, Malaysia > ZHU Jia-Lin > Chongqing Jianzhu University, PR China. > > Organising Committee > LEE Siew Eang (Chairman) > School of Building & Real Estate, NUS > Belinda YUEN (Secretary) > School of Building & Real Estate, NUS > THAM Kwok Wai (Chairman, Technical Comm.) > School of Building & Real Estate, NUS > ANG Aik Leng > Construction Industry Development Board > CHEONG Kok Wai > School of Building & Real Estate, NUS > ONG Boon Lay > School of Architecture, NUS > Abdul Rashid IBRAHIM > Public Utilities Board, Singapore > Chandra SEKHAR > School of Building & Real Estate, NUS > Amy TOH > Regional Institute of Environmental Technology. > > Call for Papers > Invitation is extended to all relevant professionals and researchers > to submit abstract for the conference. All accepted papers will be > published in conference proceedings. Papers with direct focus on the > themes of the conference will be most welcomed. > > Abstract > Please submit or e-mail a 200-word abstract, together with the > registration form to the Conference Secretariat at the address given > below. The abstract should also clearly indicate the title of the > paper, the relevant theme, the keywords, the author(s) name and > his/hers host institution(s) and forwarding address. > > Important Dates > Abstract submission: before 30th October 1997 > Notification of acceptance: 17th November 1997 > Submission of full paper: before 10th January 1998 > > The deadlines should be strictly adhered to if the papers are to be > published in the programme and proceedings. > > Correspondence > Please direct all correspondence to: > > Buildings and the Environment in Asia > Dr. Belinda Yuen > School of Building and Real Estate > National University of Singapore > 10 Kent Ridge Crescent > Singapore 119260 > > Telephone: 065 8743440 > Fax: 065 7773953 > E-mail Addresses: bembyuen@nus.edu.sg > anbleese@nus.edu.sg > > Registration Fee > The registration fee includes proceedings, all sessions, coffee > breaks, lunches, and conference banquet. The same fee applies to both > author and non-author participants. > > Accompanying persons can register for the conference banquet. > Rate Before 27 December 1997 After 27 December 1997 > > Participant S$480 S$530 > Student* S$280 S$330 > > Accompanying person or student (Banquet) S$80 > * This rate does not include conference banquet. > > Accommodation > The conference hotel shall be the Conrad International at Singapore. > Special room rate has been secured for conference participants. The > rate is as follows: > > Deluxe room S$190 plus tax and service charges > > Participants are advised to make his own reservation and payment > directly to the hotel giving the reference "NUS-CIB TG8 conference on > Buildings & the Environment in Asia" at the following address: > > Conrad International > Two Temasek Boulevard > Singapore 038982 > Telephone (65) 334 8888 > Fax (65) 338 8164 > Contact Person: Wee Kiat > > Alternative hotel accommodation is available upon request. > > Official Language > The official language at the conference shall be English. > > > Tentative Programme > > Time 11 Feb 98 12 Feb 98 13 >Feb 98 > 9.00 Registration Technical session T1 Technical > session T5 > 10.30 Site Visit to Project No.1 Tea Break Tea > Break > 11.00 Technical session T2 Technical > session T6 > 12.30 Lunch Lunch Lunch > 14.00 Site Visit to Project No.2 Technical session T3 > Technical session T7 > 15.30 Tea Break Tea Break > 17.00 Technical session T4 Panel Discussion > > 19.30 Conference Banquet Close > _____________________________________________ > > Preliminary Registration > If you are interested to participate at the Conference please complete > the preliminary registration form below for the Secretariat > information and follow up. > > Name:__________________________(Prof/Dr/Mr/Ms) > > Address:_____________________________________ > _____________________________________ > _____________________________________ > _____________________________________ > > I am submitting a paper > for the conference Yes No > > The title of the paper is:_________________________ > > ____________________________________________ > > The relevant theme for the paper is: > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 11 09:46:41 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA14213 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:46:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA06397 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:46:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18079; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:42:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:36:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA17614 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:36:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17610 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.65]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 1862600 ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:43:42 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971111213821.00699aa0@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:38:21 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Ground Source Heat Pumps In-Reply-To: <199711110700.CAA10424@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 464 > >Hart: >"Electric heat pumps create more externalities (pollution from electric generation >mostly) than a natural gas heat pump does (depending on the mix of fuels that your >electric utility uses)." > >GHPC: >NOT GUILTY. According to EBN data I looked at yesterday, GeoExchange has at >least a 30% advantage in CO2 over gas-fired reciprocating engine heat pumps >(or any other commercial technology). The argument can be made that control of >criteria pollutants is easier with central systems. Whether or not you accept this, >this highly efficient end use strategy can work well as a "pull" for the centralized >renewables (wind, solar thermal). > The CO2 emitted from a natural gas heat pump will remain relatively constant per btu delivered. The CO2 resulting from a ground source heat pump will vary considerably depending upon the mix of fuels used to produce the electricity. The "at least a 30% advantage in CO2" (please provide the volume and issue of EBN where this is stated) is, I believe, inaccurate. For a new construction project I recently simulated the energy use of a 12,000 square foot nature center. The model simulated ground source heat pumps (GSHP) vs. natural gas heat pumps (NGHP). The NGHP used more site energy (2.5 times more btus) but resulted in a reduction in operating costs (due to the high cost of electricity compared to natural gas in this part of PA). The NGHP also resulted in a lower installed cost as well (instant payback). Using EPA pollution generation figures for the northeast US (for electricity there is 1594 lbs CO2/MMBTU, for natural gas there is 113 lbs CO2/MMBTU) the CO2 emmissions were 34% less for the energy used by the NGHP compared to the energy used for the GSHP. These figures take into account the fact that the production of electricity has an efficiency of about 30%. When taking this figure into account the overall energy efficiency of a GSHP is just over 100%, not the 300% or 400% efficiencies claimed after the fuel is delivered to the building. My point in raising this issue is that a GSHP "may" not be a good choice environmentally in every situation. It will totally depend upon the fuel mix used to produce the electricity. In areas where most of the electricity is produced by relatively dirty coal, I would suggest that it is not the environmentally correct choice. In areas where Nukes predominate one could argue that it may be the better choice (based on CO2 emmissions, I'll let others apply their own value system to the production of nuclear electricity). Blanket statements about the greenness of any product that consumes electricity as it is currently produced can be very misleading. Check it out in your area before you assume it is the best choice. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 11 10:02:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA14401 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA12436 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:02:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18940; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:58:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:52:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18461 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:52:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18455 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:52:24 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 12270 invoked by uid 0); 11 Nov 1997 14:57:57 -0000 Received: from ppp-5.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.198?) (198.175.11.198) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 11 Nov 1997 14:57:57 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:08:41 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: minimizing formaldehyde in new construction Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 465 Sara, You wrote: >Hi--We've been having a huge discussion of what to use for roofing >insulation over on the Strawbale list. Someone suggested the URL for the >Healthy House institute for info on the dangers of cellulose. I was really >sorry to hear about them, since it appeared that cellulose was one of the >greener insulations. The article's pretty scarey, but worth paying >attention to, IMO. The URL for HHI is and I think I >found it under cellulose. Thanks for asking the formaldehyde question; I'm >very interested in it too......Sara. I've continued researching since my posted question (including the Healthy House Institute) and can briefly bring you up to date on some ideas. I found a local supplier of Miraflex fiberglass insulation. Made by Owens Corning (1-800-GET-PINK), it is a fluffier, more resilient textured fiberglass which needs no binder so there is no formaldehyde resin or even colorants added. Additionally, they have encased it in a very thin perforated polyethylene wrap which supposedly greatly reduces fiber particles while installing. I just bought a bale and I'm going to check it out in the next day or two. It is slightly more expensive than standard fiberglass. The cellulose horror stories did make me think twice about using it. Also, when I installed some in my floor, the person helping me reported instantly getting headaches every time the dust started flying. It is obviously made from a mixture of newsprint and magazines which means it contains all the chemicals added to those papers and inks, including some formaldehyde probably, plus the boric acid added as fire retardent. It didn't bother me while installing it, but I'm not sure I want it in my walls and roof, if this Miraflex turns out to be good. Also, all contractors I've talked to say the cellulose is a real pain if you ever do any remodelling and rip into it in the future. I am hoping that in new construction, an excellent vapor barrier will prevent most insulation or fumes from entering the interior of the house. The cellulose (and fiberglass) horror stories all seemed to entail the insulation entering the interior of the house either through loose fill in attics, basements, or cracks in walls, or even through entering ventilation ducts. None of those will be possible with my planned construction methods. Oh, and a quick question, although I could probably get an answer over in the strawbale list: Why not insulate with straw in the roof? Is the problem with keeping it sealed from the air and moisture in a roof situation, as opposed to a wall situation? Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 11 10:02:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA14404 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:02:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA12446 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:02:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18936; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:58:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:51:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18420 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:51:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18416 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:51:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id JNV06822; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:51:39 EST To: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth warming Message-ID: <19971111.104819.4495.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <1.5.4.32.19971106154604.006ba984@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-10,12,14-16,18-19,21-29 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:51:39 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 466 Sacie et al, I am behind times responding to your 11/6 posting because I was in Miami attending the joint meeting of the AIA and USGreen Building Council. First of all, several of the speakers from the President's Council would disagree with you - it seems there are still dinosaurs in Congress who doubt the reality of global warming! On a more positive note, however, there was a very upbeat message that greenbuilding and design are gaining in acceptance, not only among builders but among commercial and educational clients who see such things as energy efficiency a means to improving the bottom line. I think Alex, who was there, will agree with me that there are a growing number of notable projects and that designers and builders are seeing less resistance to green technology. Look at 4 Times Square where the developer of a spec office building was willing to gamble with solar and fuel cell technology despite high cost and very long term payback. I think that both sides of the equation are moving forward because the general public acceptance is becoming more mainstream. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Inc. Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 11 10:47:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA15076 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:47:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA04733 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:47:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21574; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:43:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:38:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21029 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:38:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21023 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:38:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id JAA0000018684; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:41:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971111154333.006ab520@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:43:33 -0600 To: John Straube From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Re: concrete and energy Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 467 John Staube, What do you mean that: "but the wood framed 2x6 has an actual whole house value of a maximum of R13-14." Is the R value reduced over time? If so, why? Otherwise an interesting arguement in favor of using concrete. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 11 11:29:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA15784 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:29:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA20828 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:29:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24075; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:25:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:21:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23636 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:21:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from iceland.it.earthlink.net (iceland-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23625; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:21:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.183] (1Cust183.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.183]) by iceland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA24735; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:24:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711111624.IAA24735@iceland.it.earthlink.net> Subject: GBlist: List Policy for Posting Announcements Date: Tue, 11 Nov 97 08:28:27 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" cc: "Nadav Malin" , "Zach Nobel" , "Nils Larsson" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 468 Hello All, In the last few days, we've seen a number of messages appear on the list that the moderators have decided to discourage. We call these announcements. They may promote an event, a product or a business. In addition to ones you have seen on the list over the past week, an equal number have been intercepted before they were posted. I'd like to share with you our reasons for discouraging these messages. If we're off base, please let us know. We see the GB List as a conversation, not a bulletin board. We like to discuss issues related to the environment and construction. We like to learn about green building products and where to buy them. We like to hear about useful Web sites. We don't like news releases, especially long detailed ones. It would be entirely unnatural for anyone sit on the couch in their home, chatting with a friend and read a "prepared statement." Likewise, to post a prepared statement to the list is inappropriate. However, if the conversation rolls around to a topic that you know and that relates to your interests, your web site or even your business, then it's appropriate to mention it in the context of that particular thread of conversation. You may even mention your web site or your products as long as it addresses a need or a question expressed in the conversation. The key is context. Events have a time element that may not allow them to "keep" while waiting for a appropriate moment. So, I suggest a _short_, conversational message, such as "There's an event coming up that some of you may find interesting...." A paragraph (about 150 words) should be enough to let folks know the event exists. Then provide a URL or an email address where more information can be obtained. It seems like overkill to bother 500 people with a two page press release, when only a dozen may have any interest. A descriptive subject line is essential to help us sift through the ever growing list of email messages. I'm eager to get your reactions and thoughts. Bruce S a moderator -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 11 12:04:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA16464 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06477 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:04:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25498; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:00:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:55:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25138 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:55:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25133 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:55:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.102] (pa-ppp17.hevanet.com [204.119.60.102]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04072 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:58:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:55:17 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: minimizing formaldehyde in new construction Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 469 Hi, Chris-- Thanks for posting your identity. Regards a "vapor barrier"--I don't think a vapor retarder is what you want, rather a good air barrier. While I'm not a chemist, I would be very surprised if the chemicals you want to avoid would be transported in significant amounts by diffusion and vapor pressure, or would be effectively contained by a vapor retarder. It's much more likely they would be carried in air that was transported through air leaks by a combination of two driving forces, wind pressure and stack effect. So air barriers would be the first priority. Best, Mike >Sara, > >You wrote: > >>Hi--We've been having a huge discussion of what to use for roofing >>insulation over on the Strawbale list. Someone suggested the URL for the >>Healthy House institute for info on the dangers of cellulose. I was really >>sorry to hear about them, since it appeared that cellulose was one of the >>greener insulations. The article's pretty scarey, but worth paying >>attention to, IMO. The URL for HHI is and I think I >>found it under cellulose. Thanks for asking the formaldehyde question; I'm >>very interested in it too......Sara. > >I've continued researching since my posted question (including the Healthy >House Institute) and can briefly bring you up to date on some ideas. > >I found a local supplier of Miraflex fiberglass insulation. Made by Owens >Corning (1-800-GET-PINK), it is a fluffier, more resilient textured >fiberglass which needs no binder so there is no formaldehyde resin or even >colorants added. Additionally, they have encased it in a very thin >perforated polyethylene wrap which supposedly greatly reduces fiber >particles while installing. I just bought a bale and I'm going to check it >out in the next day or two. It is slightly more expensive than standard >fiberglass. > >The cellulose horror stories did make me think twice about using it. Also, >when I installed some in my floor, the person helping me reported instantly >getting headaches every time the dust started flying. It is obviously made >from a mixture of newsprint and magazines which means it contains all the >chemicals added to those papers and inks, including some formaldehyde >probably, plus the boric acid added as fire retardent. It didn't bother me >while installing it, but I'm not sure I want it in my walls and roof, if >this Miraflex turns out to be good. Also, all contractors I've talked to >say the cellulose is a real pain if you ever do any remodelling and rip >into it in the future. > >I am hoping that in new construction, an excellent vapor barrier will >prevent most insulation or fumes from entering the interior of the house. >The cellulose (and fiberglass) horror stories all seemed to entail the >insulation entering the interior of the house either through loose fill in >attics, basements, or cracks in walls, or even through entering ventilation >ducts. None of those will be possible with my planned construction >methods. > >Oh, and a quick question, although I could probably get an answer over in >the strawbale list: Why not insulate with straw in the roof? Is the >problem with keeping it sealed from the air and moisture in a roof >situation, as opposed to a wall situation? > >Chris Neurath > > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 11 13:15:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA17435 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:15:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA04060 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:14:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02671; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:06:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02243 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:05:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02237 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:05:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA19931 for ; Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:08:45 -0500 Message-id: <1319593@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 11 Nov 97 13:13:54 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: R-40 wall (recommendation) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 470 My discussions with spray cellulose subs indicate that spraying a double stud wall on th order of 10-12 inches thick isn't a good idea - the cellulose will tend to fall out during installation. Anyone have experience to the contrary? Also - why stagger studs in a double stud wall - they aren't touching - I'd be very surprised that staggering makes a measurable difference - again, any experience out there re either careful calc, guarded hot box, or IR scans? Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 12 08:40:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA00481 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:40:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06271 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:40:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06292; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:36:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:31:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA06008 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:31:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.greenbuilder.com (web4.gomedia.com [204.96.111.84] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06004 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:31:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 07:46:27 +0000 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 97 08:50:56 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: InfiNet Subject: GBlist: Re: To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <4718215.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 471 Rammed earth is a massive material, thus R-value is not the appropriate measure to determine ability to achieve internal climate control. G. vittori -- Center for Maximum Potential Building Systems max_pot@greenbuilder.com http://www.maxpot.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 12 08:54:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA00665 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:54:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA10006 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06828; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:50:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:46:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA06542 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:46:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from c2smtp.payette.com (c2smtp.payette.com [199.232.148.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06538 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:46:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from NetWare MHS (SMF70) by c2smtp.payette.com via Connect2-SMTP 4.01.b32G; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:50:41 -0500 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 8:50:45 -5000 From: Daniel Arons Organization: Payette Associates Inc. To: greenbuilding@crest.org, sgoyette@tfs.psych.umn.edu (shannon) Subject: Re: GBlist: heatpumps and other options MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.01.b32G MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 472 Do you have manufacturer and efficiciency information on this GFX? I'm interested in comparing systems. *********************************************** Something that I have heard about, but doesn't seem to being mentioned on here is a device called GFX which stands for Graywater Falling-Film Heat Exchange. It's s thin copper tube that is wrapped around your water intake pipe before it goes to your water heater. The copper tube takes the already used (and heated) water from your drain and uses that heat to preheat the incoming water. It costs about $250 and apparently works just about as well as a heat pump. Shannon Goyette ______________________________________________________________________ ************************************************* ********************** Daniel Arons Architect Payette Associates, Inc (617)342-8201 ext. 324 darons@payette.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 12 09:08:21 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA00831 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA13351 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:08:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07367; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:04:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:00:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07066 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:00:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07062 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:00:09 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 7593 invoked by uid 0); 12 Nov 1997 14:05:50 -0000 Received: from ppp-1.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.194?) (198.175.11.194) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 12 Nov 1997 14:05:50 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:16:34 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: R-40 wall (recommendation) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 473 In response to: My discussions with spray cellulose subs indicate that spraying a double stud wall on th order of 10-12 inches thick isn't a good idea - the cellulose will tend to fall out during installation. Anyone have experience to the contrary? Also - why stagger studs in a double stud wall - they aren't touching - I'd be very surprised that staggering makes a measurable difference - again, any experience out there re either careful calc, guarded hot box, or IR scans? Marc ______________________________________________________________________ A friend who is building such a double stud wall with cellulose insulation just recently had it blown in. She is Ann Heidenreich, who posted quesitions about it to this list several months ago. She chose dry instead of wet because she didn't trust the chemicals in the wet I believe. Since it is new construction, not a retrofit, they could easily check for settling in the inside because they could look right through the polyethylene vapor barrier. The initial fill did settle about 6 inches down from the top of most walls, especially with hammer pounding from other work on the structure. The insulation contractor was called back and topped off all the bays. They've been keeping an eye on it since then and it seems ok. In a few years they plan on checking again and having it topped off if necessary, but they're hoping it's packed densely enough now that settling should be minimal. Unfortunately, the topping off had to be done from the inside (I think because the exterior siding had already been put on), so they had to cut little holes in the polyethylene sheet through which to blow the stuff, which will now have to get taped up ... potential for leaks. When I poured the stuff into my own floor cavity between joists, I used about 50% more than the packages said, and it sure seemed firm enough that it wasn't going to settle at that density. I later found a brochure that says some federal housing authority has a density standard for cellulose blown into walls to prevent settling, which is much more than what is written on the packages. Of course, the federal agency probably didn't test with 10-12" double stud walls. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 12 09:11:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA00861 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:11:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA14138 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:11:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07586; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:07:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:03:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07234 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:03:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.k12.vt.us (pop.k12.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07230 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:03:06 -0500 (EST) From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Received: from VDHVAX ([159.105.135.2]) by pop.k12.vt.us (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-12124) with SMTP id AAA79 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:18:33 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:03:59 -0500 Message-Id: <97111209035931@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: GFX info reply X-VMS-To: SMTP%"greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 474 for more information at GFX, try the oikos site: http://oikos.com/gfx/index.html Mike Rogers mrogers@vdh.state.vt.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 12 11:26:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA02937 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:26:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04604 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:26:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12003; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:21:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:16:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA11609 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:16:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from bcs.bccom.com (bcs.bccom.com [204.255.144.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11603 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:16:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (pm-044.bccom.com [204.255.145.44]) by bcs.bccom.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA14493 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:20:32 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:20:32 -0500 Message-Id: <199711121720.MAA14493@bcs.bccom.com> X-Sender: rfried@bccom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Rona Fried Subject: Re: GBlist: Market Survey Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 475 Dear GB list members, Does anyone have any information or leads as to where I might find: * stats on $$size and projected growth in the green market (non-residential) in the next 1-10 years? * which sectors will experience the most growth in the next few years? - public (govt buildings) - public authority - commmercial, manufacturing - institutional Thanks so much for your help, Rona Fried, Ph.D. Executive Editor, Sustainable Business Network Journal http://www.envirolink.org/sbn 516-423-3277 -- The Sustainable Business Network is a focal point for the sustainable business community on the Internet. It consists of The SBN Journal, Library, Sustainable Business Opportunities and, Green Dream Jobs -- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 12 12:52:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA04216 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:52:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06946 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:52:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15789; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:44:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15446 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:44:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15442 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:44:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA06636 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:47:38 -0500 Message-id: <1330840@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 12 Nov 97 12:52:46 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Re: Massive walls To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 476 --- You wrote: Rammed earth is a massive material, thus R-value is not the appropriate measure to determine ability to achieve internal climate control. G. vittori --- end of quoted material --- Only true where there are significant temperature swings around the comfort temperature range - in a situation where the outdoor temperature is below the comfort range continuously, the massive wall thermal storage has no effect - its capacitance can only help if there are swings in the direction of heat flow in the wall. Mass helps in passive solar applications, but again you need to be in very mild climate before mass without insulation does much. On the cooling side, mass is very helpful in hot, dry climates, where there once again are significant day-night temperature swings around the comfort zone. In hot humdi climates, there is little effect of mass on building energy performance, because you still need to remove humidity. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 12 12:56:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA04272 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:56:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA08193 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:56:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16138; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:53:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:48:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15764 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:48:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15758 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:48:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MqC19142; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:51:28 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: rammed earth Message-ID: <19971112.134815.8223.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-3,6-12 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:51:28 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 477 Recently there was a posting posing the question regarding an odor from rammed earth construction. I looked forward to a reply but saw none. I would be interested in an answer to this question, particularly since many of my work entails working with clients who are highly allergic, asthmatic or chemically sensitive. Thanks, Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Inc. Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 12 16:02:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA08406 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:02:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA10023 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:02:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24882; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:56:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:52:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA24434 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:51:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from wabakimi.chat.carleton.ca (akramer@wabakimi.chat.carleton.ca [134.117.1.98]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24428 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:51:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from akramer@localhost) by wabakimi.chat.carleton.ca (8.8.5/8.8.7) id PAA14328 for greenbuilding@crest.org.; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:55:13 -0500 (EST) From: Amanda Kramer Message-Id: <199711122055.PAA14328@wabakimi.chat.carleton.ca> Subject: GBlist: Advanced Houses To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 12 Nov 97 15:55:13 EST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 478 I am participating in an "Energy and Form" workshop at Carleton University and for my project I am attempting to compile detailed reseach on several topics relating to saving energy. I have 13 categories and in each I have tried to suggest general energy saving ideas, both at the home/business or environmental saving. I have used NRC's Advanced House Program as an example of how architects have approached the problem of energy efficiency. I am trying to compare the solutions that they have offered, and to evaluate the performance of their solutions. Below are my categories along with a brief description of what I have looked at so far. If anyone has any information technical, performance evaluations, or product information I would greatly appreciate it. 1. Building Form and Orientation: this area is more about theory and applied principles. 2. Building Envelope: I have already got alot of information from several of your previous email responses. What I would particularly like to ask is does anyone have information/comments about engineered wood products, improving vapour barriers and constructing airtight envelopes. 3. Windows and Doors: What do you think about heat mirrors? reducing condensation? frames? glazing? 4. Space and Water Heating: Integrating systems to minimize electrical consumption? Passive solar heating - space and water? heat recovery ventilators? thermal storage tanks? Hollow concrete floor slabs - construction? 5. Appliances: Natural gas appliances? Sealed combustion? front loading clothes washer? A clothes drying closet rather than a dryer? Water fixtures with temperature control? 6. Lighting: compact flourescent? I find it interesting that if you pay the incredible costs of energy efficient fixtures, there is not alot of savings. Lighting is only 1.5% of the total cost. I am looking into adapting fixtures. 7. Reduce material use: Prefabricated panels to reduce waste. I-beams that require 1/3 less wood. 8. Protect and enhance the site: crushed glass for drainage. plants using less water and maintenance. native, drought resistant plants. harvested rainwater. organic fertilizers. recycled rubber paving units - less permiable surfaces. enhance wildlife. 9. Select low impact materials: Insulation made from newsprint. cork flooring. "Cyrstal aire" a low emission finish applied to exposed particleboard. Plumbing from recycled copper. roofing from recyced steel - rubber coated. carpets from recycled pop bottles. drywall from newsprint. 10. Maximize longevity: durable products. 11. Conserve water: reduce waste water. low flow toilets. low consumption faucets and shower heads. 12. Healthy buildings: humidity sensors. Controled ventilation. air distribution. 13. minimize waste: recycling centre. Efficient construction waste management plan. composting. These are only some of the topic I have looked at. If anyone has comments or advice as to where to look I would appreciate any help. If you are a manufacturer of a product please send me as much information as you can. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 12 16:02:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA08414 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:02:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA10190 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:02:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25036; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:58:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:54:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA24612 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:54:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from wabakimi.chat.carleton.ca (akramer@wabakimi.chat.carleton.ca [134.117.1.98]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24603 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:54:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from akramer@localhost) by wabakimi.chat.carleton.ca (8.8.5/8.8.7) id PAA16415 for greenbuilding@crest.org.; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:58:07 -0500 (EST) From: Amanda Kramer Message-Id: <199711122058.PAA16415@wabakimi.chat.carleton.ca> Subject: GBlist: Advanced houses To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 12 Nov 97 15:58:06 EST X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11] Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 479 I think I may have forgotten to include my address. I apologize. akramer@chat.carleton.ca Amanda Kramer 807-201 Bell st North Ottawa, Ontario K1R 7E2 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 12 16:26:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA09307 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA18492 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:26:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA26618; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:22:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:18:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA26277 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:18:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from ipinc.ipinc.net (ns.fta.com [205.139.102.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA26271 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:18:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from hysave (ip-port-cs0-27.ipinc.net [206.29.173.27]) by ipinc.ipinc.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA21886; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:22:27 -0800 Message-ID: <346A206F.6EFA@fta.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:32:31 -0800 From: Russ Smith Reply-To: hysave@fta.com Organization: Hy-Save, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amanda Kramer CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Advanced Houses References: <199711122055.PAA14328@wabakimi.chat.carleton.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 480 Amanda Kramer wrote: > > I am participating in an "Energy and Form" workshop at Carleton University > and for my project I am attempting to compile detailed reseach on several > topics relating to saving energy. I have 13 categories and in each I have > tried to suggest general energy saving ideas, both at the home/business or > environmental saving. I have used NRC's Advanced House Program as an > example of how architects have approached the problem of energy > efficiency. I am trying to compare the solutions that they have offered, > and to evaluate the performance of their solutions. Below are my > categories along with a brief description of what I have looked at so far. > If anyone has any information technical, performance evaluations, or > product information I would greatly appreciate it. > > 1. Building Form and Orientation: this area is more about theory and > applied principles. > > 2. Building Envelope: I have already got alot of information from > several of your previous email responses. What I would particularly like > to ask is does anyone have information/comments about engineered wood > products, improving vapour barriers and constructing airtight envelopes. > > 3. Windows and Doors: What do you think about heat mirrors? reducing > condensation? frames? glazing? > > 4. Space and Water Heating: Integrating systems to minimize electrical > consumption? Passive solar heating - space and water? heat recovery > ventilators? thermal storage tanks? Hollow concrete floor slabs - > construction? > > 5. Appliances: Natural gas appliances? Sealed combustion? front > loading clothes washer? A clothes drying closet rather than a dryer? > Water fixtures with temperature control? > > 6. Lighting: compact flourescent? I find it interesting that if you pay > the incredible costs of energy efficient fixtures, there is not alot of > savings. Lighting is only 1.5% of the total cost. I am looking into > adapting fixtures. > > 7. Reduce material use: Prefabricated panels to reduce waste. I-beams > that require 1/3 less wood. > > 8. Protect and enhance the site: crushed glass for drainage. plants > using less water and maintenance. native, drought resistant plants. > harvested rainwater. organic fertilizers. recycled rubber paving units - > less permiable surfaces. enhance wildlife. > > 9. Select low impact materials: Insulation made from newsprint. cork > flooring. "Cyrstal aire" a low emission finish applied to exposed > particleboard. Plumbing from recycled copper. roofing from recyced steel > - rubber coated. carpets from recycled pop bottles. drywall from newsprint. > > 10. Maximize longevity: durable products. > > 11. Conserve water: reduce waste water. low flow toilets. low > consumption faucets and shower heads. > > 12. Healthy buildings: humidity sensors. Controled ventilation. air > distribution. > > 13. minimize waste: recycling centre. Efficient construction waste > management plan. composting. > > These are only some of the topic I have looked at. If anyone has comments > or advice as to where to look I would appreciate any help. If you are a > manufacturer of a product please send me as much information as you can. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ Hello Amanda, As a manufacturer of products and provider of technologies used for improving the energy efficiency, performance, IAQ (by dehumidification) and capacity of building air conditioning systems, I would like to invite you to review the information available at http://www.hysave.com As I'm sure you know, after you have done everything else to "green up" a building, maximizing the cooling system efficiency will have good benefit to the total green package. If you have questions, I would be most happy to talk with you about them. Sincerely Russ Smith Hy-Save Inc. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 12 16:45:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA09609 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:45:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA24014 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:45:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA27796; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:41:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:37:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA27342 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:37:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from sparticus.eurekanet.com (root@sparticus.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27337 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:36:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (port-01-22.athens.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.122]) by sparticus.eurekanet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA07480 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:40:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711122340.SAA07480@sparticus.eurekanet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Catherine M. Muller" Organization: National Center for Appropriate Technology To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:41:56 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: (Fwd) Affordable Comfort West, Nov. 18-19 and 20-21 Reply-to: cmuller@ncat.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 481 I'm forwarding an announcement for 2 training events being sponsored by Affordable Comfort in California next week. If you were unable to make it to EEBA, this short but intensive training event might be a good alternative for those of you on the west coast (or elsewhere!) I'm a bit hesitant to send this, given the recent discussion on announcements. But I feel there are those in the list that will benefit from the information. And the list has recently discussed threads covering a range of building performance topics, including CO in garages and how to build high performance walls. Both of these topics and more will be dealt with by leading names in the home performance industry. There was a special emphasis in the program design to provide information valuable to builders and contractors. Take a look. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Mon, 10 Nov 97 15:55:13 EST From: "Skip Hayden" Subject: Affordable Comfort West, Nov. 18-19 and 20-21 Affordable Comfort West 97 is coming next week! If you are involved with residential buildings, HVAC or general contracting, retrofit, remodeling or new construction, weatherization, housing performance, or energy and/or resource efficiency, this training event is for you. Nov. 17-18 Nov. 20-21 SMUD Energy & Tech Center Edison CTAC 6301 S. Street 6090 N. Irwindale Ave. Sacramento, CA 94111 Irwindale, CA 91702 Take advantage of the opportunity to discover real solutions that lead to true quality homes! The high quality workshops are designed to help you pinpoint the source of building problems with easy-to-use diagnostics and, most importantly, how to fix those problems. If you are a contractor or builder, it will show you how to enhance the quality and marketability of your homes. No other training will offer you the same opportunity for one-on-one interaction with North American-renowned experts like John Tooley, John Proctor, David Keefe, Stan Luhr and others. Some topic areas include "The House as a System", HVAC", "Building Shell", "Troubleshooting and Fixing Comfort Problems", "Elements of Quality in Construction", "Diagnostic Tools", and "Building Performance = Good Business". For more details on the Affordable Comfort West 97 program itself, as well as specifics on how to register, contact Affordable Comfort Inc. by: 1. Calling toll-free at 1-800-344-4866, from 9:00 to 5:00 EST 2. E-mailing us at: 102414.3425@compuserve.com 3. Visiting us on the web: http://www.affordablecomfort.org Affordable Comfort Inc. is a not-for-profit organization that promotes energy and resource efficiency, comfort, health, affordability & durability in residential buildings. Catherine M. Muller Project Coordinator, Multi-family Services National Center for Appropriate Technology 16 Spring Street, Glouster, Ohio 45732 cmuller@ncat.org 614/767-9000 (phone); 614/767-9033 (fax) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 12 18:04:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA11843 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:04:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA20655 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:03:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA01425; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:00:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:55:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA01012 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:55:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01004 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:55:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.102] (pa-ppp11.hevanet.com [204.119.60.96]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19174 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:59:03 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199711122055.PAA14328@wabakimi.chat.carleton.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:58:46 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Advanced Houses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 482 Hi, Amanda-- Pretty big question, but in that spirit, maybe it would be good to look at building location, since that affects energy used for basic transportation (commuting, shopping, school). Rick Browning, an architect in Portland, has done a paper in which he shows that an energy-IN-efficient house located in town uses less total energy (house + transport) than a similar energy efficient in the suburbs. I don't understand the comment about form and orientation being theoretical--seems like it's fundamental to design decisions and to energy use for the entire life of the building. Or did you mean there's no building products related to F&O? If so you could look at things like glazings (coatings, tints etc.) that are being used to "tune" each orientation of the building One thing I learned from the Super Good Cents program, the biggest variable in building performance is the occupants' behavior, so I would put that on the list. One last thoughts--all the measures interact in a building, so you can't know the overall energy savings for any given "set" without modeling and/or monitoring. Some energy features that sounded good on paper have been known to degrade overall energy performance--I remember Trombe walls fondly in this regard--they ran backwards. Best, Mike >I am participating in an "Energy and Form" workshop at Carleton University >and for my project I am attempting to compile detailed reseach on several >topics relating to saving energy. I have 13 categories and in each I have >tried to suggest general energy saving ideas, both at the home/business or >environmental saving. I have used NRC's Advanced House Program as an >example of how architects have approached the problem of energy >efficiency. I am trying to compare the solutions that they have offered, >and to evaluate the performance of their solutions. Below are my >categories along with a brief description of what I have looked at so far. > If anyone has any information technical, performance evaluations, or >product information I would greatly appreciate it. > >1. Building Form and Orientation: this area is more about theory and >applied principles. > >2. Building Envelope: I have already got alot of information from >several of your previous email responses. What I would particularly like >to ask is does anyone have information/comments about engineered wood >products, improving vapour barriers and constructing airtight envelopes. > >3. Windows and Doors: What do you think about heat mirrors? reducing >condensation? frames? glazing? > >4. Space and Water Heating: Integrating systems to minimize electrical >consumption? Passive solar heating - space and water? heat recovery >ventilators? thermal storage tanks? Hollow concrete floor slabs - >construction? > >5. Appliances: Natural gas appliances? Sealed combustion? front >loading clothes washer? A clothes drying closet rather than a dryer? >Water fixtures with temperature control? > >6. Lighting: compact flourescent? I find it interesting that if you pay >the incredible costs of energy efficient fixtures, there is not alot of >savings. Lighting is only 1.5% of the total cost. I am looking into >adapting fixtures. > >7. Reduce material use: Prefabricated panels to reduce waste. I-beams >that require 1/3 less wood. > >8. Protect and enhance the site: crushed glass for drainage. plants >using less water and maintenance. native, drought resistant plants. >harvested rainwater. organic fertilizers. recycled rubber paving units - >less permiable surfaces. enhance wildlife. > >9. Select low impact materials: Insulation made from newsprint. cork >flooring. "Cyrstal aire" a low emission finish applied to exposed >particleboard. Plumbing from recycled copper. roofing from recyced steel >- rubber coated. carpets from recycled pop bottles. drywall from newsprint. > >10. Maximize longevity: durable products. > >11. Conserve water: reduce waste water. low flow toilets. low >consumption faucets and shower heads. > >12. Healthy buildings: humidity sensors. Controled ventilation. air >distribution. > >13. minimize waste: recycling centre. Efficient construction waste >management plan. composting. > >These are only some of the topic I have looked at. If anyone has comments >or advice as to where to look I would appreciate any help. If you are a >manufacturer of a product please send me as much information as you can. >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 12 18:30:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA12849 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:30:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA26650 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:30:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02488; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:26:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:22:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02194 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:22:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from dns.img.net (dns.img.net [207.34.144.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02184; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:21:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711122321.SAA02184@solstice.crest.org> Received: from prayan ([207.34.144.116]) by dns.img.net (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA407; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:32:06 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "pvisser" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, owner-greenbuilding-digest@crest.org Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:25:09 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #386 Reply-to: pvisser@img.net In-reply-to: <199709120602.CAA23749@solstice.crest.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 483 To whom is interested; The global warming conference is in the news, and there is much work that needs to get done, especially to reduce car and housing energy waste. A proposal for a local green information centre, low impact living , Connected to a world-wide design exchange, with fully funded info. centres on design , village-scale development , local adaptations to avoid air conditioning, . Sharing practical experience, , tips and access to immense research assortment, impossible to peruse locally, I want to make available great Canadian work that has been done at the NRC. building science, the Winnipeg house, indoor air quality, etc. I want to have a few copies in our local eco centre. Every district or at least geographic or climatic area could be represented by practical ecovillage institutes with a guaranteed budget to operate. That is a useful tool esp good to do distance learning in energy efficient methods, in computer software such as AutoCAD 14, 3d , and adobe acrobat to make documents chapters, designs available via the WWW, access to e-mail newsgroups, archives from CREST and Solstice are chock full with info, speculation, questions, not all the answers, yet, but there ought to be more prototype building going on, esp. the compact cluster-type in our northern climate. , ditto on clean energy production and energy avoidance, the best pay-off of all. I am inviting people who are interested and or have experience in the field to form a board for the penticton area and work towards a green building and site development centre, in conjunction with the board of health, building inspection, permits and licences, etc. Also to find vacant land in the urban area for a green village semi-retirement centre that offer total access to continuing education in computer access info. and distance learning tools. Help home owners with renovation and new construction advice to sort out various options in energy conservation, indoor air quality , ventilation and climate control. Emphasis on integrated, synergistic village-scale technology since there are great efficiencies and cost reductions which improve the overall economic performance. The retirement complex provides a good example for a co-housing cluster. An advanced energy saving design that offers carefully designed condominiums with good natural light, and solar capable ventilation and summer shade, with a well equipped communication centre and shared infrastructure, pipeline for data, are marketable and cost- and energy-efficient -ways to live. I invite the federal gov't to fund energy-smart info.centers and located at co-housing sites in urban areas. prayan visser, Turnaround Supply ph. 250-490-7351 refining simple home comforts to work with nature. fax and home ph. 250-497-5146, email: pvisser@img.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 12 18:42:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA12982 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:42:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA29465 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:42:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02962; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:38:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:34:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02705 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:33:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from iceland.it.earthlink.net (iceland-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02701 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:33:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.72] (1Cust72.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.72]) by iceland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA25599 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:37:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711122337.PAA25599@iceland.it.earthlink.net> Subject: GBlist: Announcement Policy Update Date: Wed, 12 Nov 97 15:40:59 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 484 Friends, I've gotten strong support for the policy I posted on minimizing announcements. Most comments have come directly to me through private email, so you haven't seen much. I want to allow a couple more days for responses. Then you'll see an official statement. If you have ideas and haven't shared them with me, please hurry. In the meantime, if you have an announcement and don't know if you should post it, please ask by emailing me at "sullivan@oikos.com" Normally, you could also contact Nadav, but he's taking some time off to dote on his family. Thanks Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 12 21:45:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA18965 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:45:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA15505 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:45:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08170; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:41:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:37:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07798 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:36:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin43.mail.aol.com (mrin43.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.153]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07792 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:36:53 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin43.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA16434 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:40:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:40:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971112214001_-895121596@mrin43.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Software Testing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 485 We're looking for people interested to beta test IAQ-related technical software. More details are below. If interested, please let me know. Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX IMSHAPIRO@AOL.COM Technology As If The Earth Mattered Taitem Engineering is a consulting engineering firm located in Ithaca, NY. We do IAQ assessments in buildings, energy research, energy audits, and HVAC design. Over the past few years, we have also developed several software programs, mostly IAQ-related, and have recently begun developing programs in cooperation with Coolsys, Ltd. Our programs include IAQ-TOOLS, VENT-ED (Ventilation Energy Diagnostics), and Indoor Humidity Tools. Our programs are distributed by ACGIH, Envirowin, Cutter, and others. Programs in development include Psychrometric Chart Tools, and a program for ventilation calculations to meet ASHRAE Standard 62. We put much emphasis on rigorous software testing, both in-house and by users, and have developed a reputation for robust, near-bug-free software. To support this goal, beta testing plays an extremely important part. Beta testers get near-final-version, high quality, useful software at no charge. (Our programs typically run in the $200-$500 range.) In exchange, we ask that the software be seriously run through its paces, preferably while taking notes to track comments, bugs, typos, preferences, and problems. For more information, contact Ian Shapiro at IMSHAPIRO@AOL.COM. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 12 22:32:56 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA21760 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA28929 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:32:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09806; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:28:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:24:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA09543 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:24:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (mail.bigpond.com [139.134.5.225]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09539 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:24:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from ma-a01-pool-159.tmns.net.au (ma-a01-pool-159.tmns.net.au [139.134.93.159]) by teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ha811649 for ; Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:04:24 +1100 From: "Brian Woodward" To: "Gary Hamilton" , Subject: GBlist: Re: R-values of Rammed Earth Walls Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 02:04:54 +1100 Message-ID: <01bcf045$7ffc92c0$9f5d868b@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 486 In response to my response to Garry Hamilton's posting about rammed earth construction, John Wilson e-mailed me privately. The following transpired: Dear Brian, I found your email quite interesting and it causes me to ask on what you base the following: Brian Woodward wrote: Bye the way I think mudbrick (Adobe) is far superior to rammed earth. Please understand I don't disagree, I am just curious and based on your credentials believe you must know what you are talking about. Good Day, John Wilson Prescott, AZ. I'm fairly new to newsgroups, so don't know if I should be posting this on the newsgroup as well as sending it straight to you John. I think the contents would be of interest generally, what do you think? I realized I was throwing down the gauntlet when I made that statement and hoped someone would pick it up - thanks John. I will answer your question by using some brief extracts from a 50 page booklet I wrote called Mudbrick Notes. "Any evaluation of a range of alternatives must involve some subjective judgements. This evaluation is based on initial academic and scientific research modified by observations in the field and over 20 years of practical experience. Even so it is coloured by a particular technological approach and philosophical bias as much as by the more tangible experiences involved. The bias involved in this evaluation is based on the ideas of appropriate technology and sustainability as well as the viewpoint of thinking globally and acting locally. SOILS: Mudbrick can be used with the widest range of soil types and so will naturally be of value in the greatest number of applications. COST: The tools and equipment needed for mudbrick are cheaper and simpler than for other earth building techniques. EXPERTISE: The level of skill needed to make and lay mudbricks is much less than pressed earth blocks. STRENGTH: Mudbricks are inherently stronger and more durable than rammed earth or pressed earth blocks if the same soil, and the same additive if any, is used. FLEXIBILITY: Walls built of blocks (mudbricks and pressed earth blocks) are much more flexible in their design possibilities than monolithic techniques (rammed earth). APPEARANCE: Most people who are attracted to earth building from an aesthetic point of view are usually interested in the texture and irregularity achieved by mudbricks. Those people who have seen examples of the different earth building techniques generally prefer mudbricks. Mudbricks are also malleable to a large range of appearances to suit different aesthetic preferences." As I said these are very brief statements. I would love to expand on them if you like. Bye the way John, we don't say 'Good Day' in Australia we say, G'Day Mate, :-) Brian Woodward Dear Brian, I absolutley think the thread should read your comments. I had planned on emailing you via the thread, but didn't notice that it only went to you until it was too late (sorry). I wonder how I could get a copy of your booklet. From what I have read so far I am most impressed and I am even more convinced that there was a reason for me to contact you (without getting tto cosmic here). I look forward to reading more details. G'Day Mate, John Dear John (This is the first 'Dear John' letter I've written) Thanks for the compliments!! We sell Mudbrick Notes for Aus$10.00 plus postage. So US$10.00 should cover it easily. I'm happy if you send a greenback (I think that's what you call them) in the mail to save you the cost of a bank draft. Remember this booklet is written with Australian regulations in mind. I understand codes in some US states are much too restrictive when it comes to mudbricks made with raw earth. (One of the reasons I left England 23 years ago.) We have had, and are having an uphill battle keeping the regulations over here reasonable. Regards Brian ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 14 11:50:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA12052 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:50:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA06130 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:50:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20190; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:46:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:41:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA19817 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:41:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19813 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:41:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from eei.org by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: mail.eei.org [204.254.108.2]) id QQdpqo11047; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:44:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from WPDomain-Message_Server by eei.org with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:44:16 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:41:12 -0500 From: Harvey Sachs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Moderated list vs. Free Speech Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 487 Please take this as a vote in favor of a true moderated forum, if you can make the time to do the "filtering" and convince members that you will be impartial. The difference in "signal-to-noise" between moderated and unmoderated listservs is enormous - if the moderator is an honest broker so that the list keeps being signal! A moderated group helps keep the subjects relevant and unrepeated. It has great added value. We have tried to do the same with a "Web Forum" for designers on our site and I have reluctantly concluded that the passive web forum (readers have to go look for info) is less effective in stimulating discussion than the more "primitive" listserve. Finally, this is information is use professionally, not political speech. I need to trust that the listerve "owner" is an honest broker who promotes dissemination of fact-based ideas, but I do not demand the right to see flames, flat earth advocacy, etc. to me, the analogy that best describes the function of a listserv is a quick-response "professional journal" or something like EDU, rather than a conversation, although I know others disagree. In this analogy, the moderator is the editor, and the job is focus and quality, not censorship. Thanks! Harvey Sachs Technical director Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 14 12:46:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA14246 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25506 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:46:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23408; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:42:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:37:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22897 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:37:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22892 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:37:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet3.carleton.ca [134.117.136.23]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA07268; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:40:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id MAA06122; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:40:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:40:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711141740.MAA06122@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: Soil Compactors Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 488 on Thu, 13 Nov 1997 John Salmen wrote: > OUch. If you want to keep the lagoon natural don't compact. > ...Create a boardwalk. and Bruce Sullivan wrote: > look into porous paving products that allow traffic, > including wheel chairs, while reducing compaction and > promoting drainage... recycled plastic. Hello Maurizio and LagoonLovers; I'm with JohnS. and BruceS. on this one... soil compaction is a Ba-a-a-d Thing. However, rather than paving the path over or erecting a boardwalk (which IMO would detract from the Illusion of the Natural Look), you might consider using coarse wood chips as the "paving" material (ie as one would obtain free for the asking from tree maintenance outfits like Davey Tree etc. In many localities, this material is dumped into landfills and one is charged the usual tipping fees for doing so.) When spread in a layer 8" thick or so, the chips are firm enough to drive a 10 tonne truck over, (even if there is soft, wet clay underneath),... firm enough that wheel chairs will not get bogged down, ... yet resilient enough to provide that "oh-so-soft forest floor feel" that all the best natural-like paths surely aspire towards. The chips will not interrupt the existing drainage patterns, do not require compaction of the substrate or any excavation to provide a "foundation", require no maintenance other than possibly having to rake out uneven areas the odd time) and perhaps best of all, will eventually decay and contribute to building a rich, humus layer. The only thing that might pose problems is if the loads of chips contained diseased material (ie fire blight-ed leaves) which could spread disease to the native vegetation. This problem can easily be avoided by speaking to the tree people beforehand and making it clear that only trimmings from non-diseased trees be delivered. -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 14 16:18:54 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA21668 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:18:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA22767 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:18:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03674; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:14:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:10:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA03384 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:10:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin43.mail.aol.com (mrin43.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.153]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03380 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:10:05 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin43.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA20941; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:13:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:13:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971114161319_540856020@mrin43.mail.aol.com> To: bhoward2@sprynet.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 489 In a message dated 11/14/97 3:35:38 PM, you wrote: <<** Thermal performance test data on walls constructed with strawbales ** Should ideally be from ASTM standardized tests, in NAVLAP approved facilities. Will selectively examine other evidence, such as whole building short-term-energy-monitoring (STEM) results, thermography images where simultaneous d-T data is available, or other information following accepted engineering practices that have produced credible data on the thermal transmittance, heat capacity properties (thermal mass "signature") or other useful information. (Current need, for use in possible code changes, EEBA Criteria updates, and ASTM standard guide on green building, in preparation) >> Hi Bion, Indoor - outdoor air temp and surface temp data will allow a pretty good quick estimate of U-value. Continuous monitoring of these and you can get a pretty good handle on the mass dynamics as well. I bet David has some of this kind of information. NAHB Research Center used to have a pretty nice ASTM hotbox setup for whole walls. Don, still got it? Have you looked at strawbales? NIST has a real nice whole wall set-up too. We could put in a request with Andy. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 14 16:49:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA23309 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:49:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA03939 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:49:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA04890; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:45:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:40:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04595 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:40:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailnfs0.tiac.net (mailnfs0.tiac.net [199.0.65.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04589 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:40:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from p1.ts2.sprin.MA.tiac.com (p8.ts1.nhamp.MA.tiac.com [207.60.24.105]) by mailnfs0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with SMTP id QAA07805 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:44:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by p1.ts2.sprin.MA.tiac.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BCF11C.372FF780@p1.ts2.sprin.MA.tiac.com>; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:41:54 -0500 Message-ID: <01BCF11C.372FF780@p1.ts2.sprin.MA.tiac.com> From: Duncan Prahl To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Rvalues of Strawbale walls Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:41:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA04591 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 490 I just came back from the EEBA Conference where I heard that Jeff Christian (Oak Ridge) did a presentation on a hot box test of a strawbale wall and I heard he came up with an R-15. The probable cause for low R-value was convection at the interface of the stucco and straw - but I didn't see the presentation so you didn't here it from me. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 14 17:49:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA25312 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA24521 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:49:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06846; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:45:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:40:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA06528 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:40:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin39.mail.aol.com (mrin39.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.149]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06524 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:40:44 -0500 (EST) From: IdahoCFM@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin39.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA09285 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:44:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:44:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971114174359_288004009@mrin39> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Glazing limitations Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 491 I have a commercial application in which I'm limited by design constraint to a reflective coating on a 10 foot high rounded curtain wall corner. Does anybody have any suggestions for suppliers of glass that can give me good K(e) values on glazing with a reflective coating? Thanks! Chris Meyer Parkwood Business Properties Coeur d'Alene, ID ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 14 19:37:47 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA28181 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:37:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA08574 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:37:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10610; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:33:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:29:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10255 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:29:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin44.mail.aol.com (mrin44.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA10251 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:28:58 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin44.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id TAA18992 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:32:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:32:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971114193213_-1575329112@mrin44.mail.aol.com> To: IdahoCFM@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: heatpumps and other options (GFX) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 492 Apologies if I'm repeating a comment, but the GFX is not a substitute for a heat pump or any other space or hot water heating system--it recovers waste heat from water going down the drain, and by warming the cold water coming in off the street, reduces the energy required to make more hot water. More like a water heater "booster," if you will. So the "heatpumps and other options" title of this thread is misleading. Chris Meyer said... >>I too have heard of this GFX thing and saw one in person at a conference in Seattle. I tried the idea on my HVAC guy and he didn't think that the BTU's transferred during the brief time that the outgoing water was in contact with the incoming water was sufficent to make any difference.<< We're installing our first GFX in a residential renovation here in Seattle. I had the same reservations, but was convinced by actual test results. Vaughn Corporation, manufacturer of the GFX, has a website with extensive results posted. You can get to it from Oikos. >>Also, the problems with clogging and residue accumulation were uncertain enough to make us pass over the opportunity when retrofitting a warehouse for an athletic club. To my eye, the opportunity looks good, but I got a definite thumbs down from my local resource here.<< The GFX is basically a 4" (or 3") diameter 5' tall copper pipe wrapped with your incoming 1/2" water line, inserted in your waste line, usually in the basement. There are no moving parts, and so, as far as I can imagine, no more chances of clogging or residue accumulation than the same section of cast iron or ABS pipe and your normal incoming water line. Rob Harrison Robert Harrison Architects Seattle ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 14 20:26:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA29857 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:26:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA27525 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:26:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12342; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:16:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11942 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:15:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin58.mail.aol.com (mrin58.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.168]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA11937 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:15:56 -0500 (EST) From: SOLAR783@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin58.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id UAA21257 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:19:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:19:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971114201910_326769035@mrin58.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 493 This is an answer to the below cited conversation between Jorg and Malcom: Jorg: How do you derive at the equation of emitting 25% of the green house gases that you neighbors do with natural gas. I would like to know of your resources upon where you acquired the information about fuelwood. In my research of embodied energy I have specifcially looked at Demand Side Management of Power Plants, mostly on the coal fired power plant side, and collected alot of data of actual air borne pollutants such as carbon monoxide, co2, HC, PM, NoX, and So2. Granted the type of fuel source has different percentages of the pollutants, as well as its size of production whether it be local or grand scale power plant facilities. The biggest concern with fuelwood consumption is its efficiency. Some wood stoves only reach 6% of its conversion efficiency of the fuel wood value. Interested in knowing more of your sources. Thanks. Candace Gossen Solar 7.83 2323 SE Tamarack Portland, Oregon 97214 503-236-0915/ fax 238-6607 email Solar783@aol.com From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Subject: Re: GBlist: Net Carbon emissions issue & biomass Jorg wrote: we emit about 25% of the greenhouse gases by burning wood that any of our neighbours do burning natural gas in their suburban plastic houses. I am a bit new to this and I was worried when I asked the question that Jorg would take it as criticism, but the response has been really interesting. However, I am having difficulty understanding any difference between new and old CO2. Sequestration is surely simply the conversion of CO2 to biomass. I can’t see that time comes into it. Do I misunderstand sequestered? I have read somewhere that the quantity of solar energy arriving daily is orders of magnitude greater than the consumption of fuels (fossil or recent). I fondly imagine that large scale reforestation projects to convert that energy could balance the consumption. Jorg is hoping that he has enough land to plant sufficient trees to more than balance his own consumption. I would also be interested to know what area of forest is required to balance a given energy value of ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 14 20:58:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA01409 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:58:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA07216 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:58:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA13369; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:54:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:49:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA13033 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:49:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin84.mail.aol.com (mrin84.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.194]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA13029 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:49:34 -0500 (EST) From: SOLAR783@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin84.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id UAA19626 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:52:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:52:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971114205248_-1207086565@mrin84.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: co2 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 494 Date: Sun, 09 Nov 1997 11:43:12 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Subject: Re: GBlist: Dollar Value of CO2 Marcus Sheffer wrote: You might also want to convert CO2 numbers to something more meaningful like acres of trees planted. Trees - #ofCO2/5175=acres of trees. Sorry for my ignorance, but does # = 1 pound? and does this mean that 5175 pounds of CO2 are absorbed by 1 acre of trees per year? Malcolm Scott Malcolm, Here are some numbers from my research. Tree quotient = trees to amount of compound absorbe from the atmosphere. = 210 acres of trees required to remove the stack emissions released from the production of 1.4 million kilowatt hours (which are averaged for oil, gas and coal producing power plants) For an average 2,000 sf wood frame house ( dimension lumber only = 12,782 bf) at 74% efficiency of 9.5 - 16" trees each house would require 20 trees. If a forest were planted every 6' there would be an average of 1,200 trees per acre. Therefore 1200 x 210 = 252,000 trees required to absorb pollution from 1.4 kilowatt hours/acre. If the trees were grown at wider intervals then the amount of trees required to compensate thepollution would be even less. Emissions as listed from APS & AEPCO operated units in the EIA "Cost and Quality fo Fuels for Electric Utility Plants 1988", table 50 gas units from RERC Form 1 cite that Edmonds and Reilly assumptions of 0.55 lbs of carbon are released per pound of coal, assuming 10,000 BTU's of energy per pound of coal. The EPA NEDS Point Source listing for gas plants Sox and Nox ratees from the American Gas Association cite: Nav 1 - heat rate (BTU/kwh) = 10,239.0 Million BTU's per unit of coal (ton)= 22.07 million Carbon per ton = 1220 lbs/ton So2 = tons per million tons = 10378.68 tons/ton = 20.75 tons/ton coal Nox = tons per million tons = 4495.24 = 0.0044 tons/ton = 8.99 lbs/ton coal And there are different numbers if you are calculating emisions from industrial equipment including automobiles. If I can be of further service, please let me know. Candace Gossen Solar7.83 2323 SE Tamarack Portland, Oregon 97214 503-236-0915/fax 238-6607 email Solar783@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 14 21:46:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA03365 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:46:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA25879 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:45:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA14474; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:41:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:37:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14197 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:37:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin83.mail.aol.com (mrin83.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.193]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14191 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:37:30 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin83.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA11330 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:40:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:40:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971114214044_-1776829775@mrin83.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: List Policy for Posting Announcements Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 495 >>I believe the moderators are censoring this list of useful, relevant information.<< Not to be curmudgeonly and add to the fracas, but I believe _this_ thread is the "noisiest" on this list...! Can we get back to talking about green building? Rob Harrison Seattle P.S. to Bruce and Nadav--feel free to delete this message! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 14 22:43:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA04873 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:43:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA18421 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:43:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA15490; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:39:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:34:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15233 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:34:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from geocities.com ([209.1.224.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15229 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:34:41 -0500 (EST) From: pierremasson@geocities.com Received: from LOCALNAME (rs00.isn.net [198.167.161.150]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA00473 for ; Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:38:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:38:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711150338.TAA00473@geocities.com> X-Sender: pierremasson@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: And how to do it GREEN-ly Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 496 Hi Jim, you might try an earthen flour, that is add enough clay (about 20%, I think) to the soil that is already there, mix everything with water, smooth out to an appropriate thickness (3 or 4 inches), let dry, add another thinner finish coat, then stabilise with linseed oil or some other such product. Some good info in "The Strawbale House", by Steen, Steen and Bainbridge. I've not done this myself and might be a bit off on some details, but the book mentionned has much more details. Bye for now. Pierre. >At our restaurant we have a partly dirt basement. Short of pouring >concrete (green??), does anyone care to suggest a green solution to the >envitable dust problem that arises as we try to use that portion? Some is >standing height, some crawl. pierremasson@geocities.com Charlottetown, PEI, Canada. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 15 08:57:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA21328 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:57:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA05813 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:57:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25614; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:52:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:48:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA25339 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:47:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin39.mail.aol.com (mrin39.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.149]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA25335 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:46:58 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin39.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id IAA07516 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:50:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:50:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971115085014_-2078342926@mrin39> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: recycled content restaurant construction Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 497 Although I understand recycled content is only a part of 'green' building, I'm looking for manufaturers of recycled content construction materials that can be used in commercial construction, specifically restaurants. I'm utilizing lots of product directories, Harris, RPG, Sweets, etc. In particular, I'm looking for a quarry tile or equivalent, roofing materials, plaster/stucco, and vinyl siding (or similar ). Any solid contacts would be appreciated. Phil Bailey pbsustain@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 15 10:07:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA23052 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:07:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA28913 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:07:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26974; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:03:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:58:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26695 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:57:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26688 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:57:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.27] (iplink27.crocker.com [205.246.4.27]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA16686 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:01:46 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:03:26 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Announcement Policy Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 498 I'm for limiting the posting of announcements to the format suggested by Bruce S. I like the conversational context.. even if I've not participated too much of late. I also like short, concise postings. They are easier to read. Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 15 10:43:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA24409 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:43:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA11161 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:43:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27555; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:39:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:35:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27300 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:34:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin40.mail.aol.com (mrin40.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27296 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:33:56 -0500 (EST) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin40.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id KAA07743 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:37:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:37:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971115103711_-659078313@mrin40.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: natural paving products Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 499 >I'm working with a non-profit organization in Southern California to >improve accessibility on a trail surrounding a natural lagoon. The only >problem we are facing is the softness of the path due to the accumulation >of sandy soil in two areas of the trail. I was thinking of using a soil >compactor to be mixed with the original soil to improve the situation. >Does anyone have 'natural' suggestions for me? You could try using powderized psyllium (sp?) husks as a natural stabilizer, mixed about 1000 to 1 or so. Mix it dry, then moisten it as you tamp it and wet it as you finish the top "crust" with rollers. I've seen bike paths made with this stuff (though marketed as Stabilizerx), as well as baseball infields and for erosion control. Tony ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 15 11:29:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA24826 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27863 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:29:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28592; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:25:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:20:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28242 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:19:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28233 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:19:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA106476; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:22:22 -0700 Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:22:21 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Bion Howard (EEBA)" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Cellulose spray challenges / thick walls In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971113162731.006ac55c@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 500 Bion: Through experience we have found double wall construction not worth the extra material and labour. However we are using single stud "Eco-Suds" of whatever width specified depending on region and climate. We use 13" width a lot, always with "Wall Bar" cellulose (applied under a pressure of 3.52#/CF), without it falling out. Easy to install even 1.5 stories high (using ballon, not western framing). Single 2x4 bottom and top plates. Using 3 sometimes 4, 2x4 cross members (left-over cut-offs from truss manufactuers) connect the inner 2x4 structural stud with the 2x2 or 2x3 outer non-structural stud. Even the metal nailer (gusset) plates can be 60-70% recycled metal. I am sure we can still make improvements, but we like this system. Very little thermal bridging. Studs are 24 o/c. In my house the gap at the stud gives about R-30 insulation. The wall is rated at about R-50. Airtight, very quiet (we live in the city) and as environmentally-correct as we can make it at this time. [Half of all our work is strawbale]. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Bion Howard (EEBA) wrote: > > Marc -- Pertaining to comments below: > > With the double wall approach, one could in essence "apply twice" if > slumping or other application problems were an issue. I have not > experienced problems related to depth of application, but also have not > spray applied cellulose (or more accurately, had sub's do it for me...) at > thickness exceeding 10 inches. The applicator might have to adjust > settings if clump or slump were a problem. > If more moisture in mix was needed, then drying time could be a problem. > > In a 10 inch wall, with separate 2x6 and 2x4 sections, the studs could > touch or be quite close if not staggered. Wood avg. 1.18 to 1.3 R/inch vs > Cellulose (or what ever) at R3.25 to 3.6 per inch, so this could create > some thermal bridging that lowers overall wall thermal performance. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 15 11:32:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA24846 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:32:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28820 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:32:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28788; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:28:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:24:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28397 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:23:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28388 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:22:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA16688; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:27:55 -0800 Message-ID: <346DCC20.16B61968@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 08:21:53 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ANovelli@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: natural paving products X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <971115103711_-659078313@mrin40.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 501 ANovelli@aol.com wrote: > >I'm working with a non-profit organization in Southern California to > >improve accessibility on a trail surrounding a natural lagoon. The > only > >problem we are facing is the softness of the path due to the > accumulation > >of sandy soil in two areas of the trail. I was thinking of using a > soil > >compactor to be mixed with the original soil to improve the > situation. > >Does anyone have 'natural' suggestions for me? > There is some interesting points here that relate to land development and siting in general. It struck me in this discussion that our general identification of environmental criteria is somewhat arbitrary or haphazard compared to the thoroughness with which solutions are identified. The problem given here was softness of soil being a problem for walking. An environmental problem was identified i.e. the appropriateness of disturbing the natural soil base with our current understanding being limited to two aspects; drainage and root compaction. Our resourcefulness seems to stop at the identification of single issues with our eagerness to provide ad hoc solutions taking over. The identification of one potential problem should provide a clue or motivation to gather other information that might affect the original plan. And sometimes the information gathered might stand in the way of the original goal (in this case accessibility around a lagoon) but something was learned about how we live in/with natural sites - which was the point of accessibility to begin with. The comparison to site development is simply that some concept of end usage always stands in the way of any understanding of current usage and we lose a lot in the process. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 15 11:59:54 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA26379 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA09249 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:59:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29763; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:55:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:50:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29189 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:49:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29164; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:49:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA143370; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:51:37 -0700 Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:51:37 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: ee-building@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: URGENT:Canadian CO2 Tax/Environmental Initiative/Kyoto Japan Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 502 To ALL Canadians who love our natural heritage and are proactive about the environment, especially if you can spare a few moments before Tuesday Nov18/97 We have been working on the above and have been sending the Prime Minister and Federal Environment Minister letters of support for the above during the last week. Samples letters already sent are available for viewing, if you can help support this initiative. The federal government's environmental strategy is still being formulated for the upcoming International Conference in Japan on CO2 reductions. This is your chance to tell the cabinet what you think should be done. Don't forget that although Canada made a written international commitment at Rio in 1992 to reduce CO2 emissions, they have increased (by 10%) because of so-called "voluntary reductions". Many European countries have already surpassed their CO2 reduction commitments. PLEASE HELP TO ENSURE A CLEANER AND GREENER PLANET FOR OUR SAKE AND THAT OF FUTURE GENERATIONS WHO HAVE TO INHERIT THIS BEAUTIFUL PLANET EARTH. Can you provide a few minutes to be part of the solution rather than the problem? Your effort would be appreciated. My original notice on this matter was deleted by the moderators when a longer version was sent to the greenbuilding listserve and may have sparked the present debate re: policies. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 15 12:27:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA26594 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:27:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA20169 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:27:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00438; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:23:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:19:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00156 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:18:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00152 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:18:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA17220; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:23:01 -0800 Message-ID: <346DD909.6AB26F8B@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:16:57 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: co2 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 503 This discussion brings me back to an earlier one on the appropriateness of wood usage in construction compared to agricultural product usage. It has been an unfounded suspicion and bias of mine that the maintenance and selective cutting of forests (the reality of which is another discussion) might contain the indirect potential for greater environmental benefits than other materials which may initially seem to embody less energy. The benefits relate to the idea of keeping large chunks of land locked into some type of forest coverage - and the long term benefits of such land usage (or l ack of usage) . The downside of this is that we still have no clear concept of the impact of any type of tree removal from a forested area (soil renewal , etc.) My own anecdotal experience involves regrowth predictions on selective lots we have cut from for house projects. One especially wood intensive house (20,000bf) was cut from a 20 acre parcel. No replanting was done as natural regeneration was preferred for genetic continuity - regrowth (as increased growth of existing and new growth) of that 20,000 bf was estimated at 5 years. Its difficult to determine the consequence of any kind of cutting in a forest. Opening the canopy and reducing competition spurs growth - but there are other impacts such as disruption of the forest floor and removal of wood that would have contributed to the soil base, etc. My work with forests have made me very conservative in the use of any material in my building designs as the large scale removal of any material seems very dramatic at its source. Its also made me very conservative with the amount of space I allocate to designs as I've become very conscious of the implications of removing exterior space (which I've come to prefer to interior shelter) Although trees are probably the most efficient tools for CO2 management and it is useful to think in terms of replanting. My suspicion is that a far greater amount of greenspace is lost in the initial land development that precedes housing. I once came upon a reference that said there was far greater tree loss as a result of urban development than in forestry logging operations. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 15 13:38:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA28591 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:38:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA17644 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:38:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02047; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:34:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:29:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA01706 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:28:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.greenbuilder.com (web4.gomedia.com [204.96.111.84] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01697 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:27:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:43:19 +0000 Date: Sat, 15 Nov 97 13:47:43 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Massive walls To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <4722817.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 504 Marc: you're right--just trying to make the point that massive materials have different thermal performance characteristics than insulative materials, not that one necessarily excludes the other. In fact, generally we insulate on the exterior of mass, thus combining the two types of materials. Gail -- Center for Maximum Potential Building Systems max_pot@greenbuilder.com http://www.maxpot.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 15 14:09:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA29919 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:09:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA29201 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:09:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02942; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:05:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:00:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02608 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:59:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from pos-srv4100.javanet.com (pos-srv4100.javanet.com [205.219.162.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02600 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:59:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from 8 (armory-us429.javanet.com [209.94.150.188]) by pos-srv4100.javanet.com (8.8.8/8.7) with SMTP id OAA18208; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:03:22 -0500 (EST) From: "Janice Steinem & John Barrett" To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" , Subject: Re: GBlist: R-40 wall (recommendation) Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 19:58:16 -0500 Message-ID: <01bcf098$646706a0$LocalHost@8> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 505 My discussions with spray cellulose subs indicate that spraying a double stud >wall on th order of 10-12 inches thick isn't a good idea - the cellulose will >tend to fall out during installation. Anyone have experience to the contrary? I have not seen it fall out in 10" walls the framming seems to hold it up and in place. John Barrett -----Original Message----- From: Marc J. Rosenbaum To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tuesday, November 11, 1997 1:13 PM Subject: Re: GBlist: R-40 wall (recommendation) >> >Also - why stagger studs in a double stud wall - they aren't touching - I'd be >very surprised that staggering makes a measurable difference - again, any >experience out there re either careful calc, guarded hot box, or IR scans? > >Marc >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 15 15:07:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA01660 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:07:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA17381 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:07:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04609; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:03:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:58:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA04254 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:57:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from sweden.it.earthlink.net (sweden-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA04250 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:57:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.149] (1Cust149.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.149]) by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA08126; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:01:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711152001.MAA08126@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: recycled content restaurant construction Date: Sat, 15 Nov 97 12:04:45 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 506 Phil Don't forget REDI . Bruce >I'm >utilizing lots of product directories, Harris, RPG, Sweets, etc. In >particular, I'm looking for a quarry tile or equivalent, roofing materials, >plaster/stucco, and vinyl siding (or similar ). Any solid contacts would be >appreciated. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 15 20:52:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA12081 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:52:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA23664 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:52:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA13129; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:48:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:43:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12835 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:42:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711160142.UAA12835@solstice.crest.org> From: "carmine vasile" To: Subject: GBlist: Hotel "Peak-Shaving" with Gray Water Heat Recycling & GFX Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:15:13 -0500 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 507 Those of you involved with DSM and "peak-shaving" in hotels and other high-rise buildings may wish to visit: http://oikos.com/gfx/hotel.html to see what GFX did for a Hotel in Wellington, New Zealand --- Courtesy of Frans Plugge, ECOsystems Ltd [econews@ibm.net]. Frans also provided Temperature vs. Time graphs for a GFX Model S4-60 operating in a 4" common drain for 6 showers, 6 toilets, and 6 hand basins. The graphs illustrate how effectively GFX can "peak-shave" during the morning and evening hours, when shower usage peaks in hotels. The large temperature boost afforded by GFX will also guarantee hot-showers for late-risers. ===================================================================== Carmine Vasile, CEO Voice: 516-758-6271 WaterFilm Energy Inc. Fax: 516-758-0438 P.O. Box 48 Email: gfx-ch@msn.com Oakdale, NY 11769 ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 15 22:54:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA15332 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:54:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA07195 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:54:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA15690; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:50:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:45:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15364 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:44:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15360 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:43:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.25.64.229] (usr2a33.rut.sover.net [206.25.64.229]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA20519 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:47:33 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <346DD909.6AB26F8B@cow-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:52:45 -0500 To: From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: Good forestry and wood use Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 508 At 9:16 AM -0800 11/15/97, John Salmen wrote: >This discussion brings me back to an earlier one on the appropriateness >of wood usage in construction compared to agricultural product usage. It >has been an unfounded suspicion and bias of mine that the maintenance >and selective cutting of forests (the reality of which is another >discussion) might contain the indirect potential for greater >environmental benefits than other materials which may initially seem to >embody less energy. I don't have any data to back this up either, but I've often argued that wood from certified, well-managed forests is an excellent choice of material, because its use helps support an operation that is committed to maintaining a healthy and diverse forest. This is one of the few areas where use of a material may in fact represent a net environmental positive rather than just a lesser of evils in terms of lifecycle impacts. One could argue about just how good is good enough management to qualify. The standards of the Forest Stewardship Council, while very strict from the industry's point of view, are barely good enough for many environmentalists. We get into this issue in some detail in the current (November) issue of EBN, which is to be mailed out this Monday. Nadav ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 15 23:52:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA17520 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:52:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA22450 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:52:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA16888; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:48:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:42:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA16597 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:41:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA16593 for ; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:41:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA26179; Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:46:05 -0800 Message-ID: <346E7926.548A191F@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:40:06 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: carmine vasile CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Hotel "Peak-Shaving" with Gray Water Heat Recycling & GFX X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199711160142.UAA12835@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 509 ok. I'm a early riser and I don't shave often enough (Gretchen will testify) but I've had it with GFX. I agree, I don't need to be convinced any further. A copper pipe wrapped around a copper pipe will be a net energy gain and I will definitely use one in my next project. Thank you. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. carmine vasile wrote: > Those of you involved with DSM and "peak-shaving" in hotels and other > high-rise buildings may wish to visit: > http://oikos.com/gfx/hotel.html > > to see what GFX did for a Hotel in Wellington, New Zealand --- > Courtesy of > Frans Plugge, ECOsystems Ltd [econews@ibm.net]. > > Frans also provided Temperature vs. Time graphs for a GFX Model S4-60 > operating in a 4" common drain for 6 showers, 6 toilets, and 6 hand > basins. > > The graphs illustrate how effectively GFX can "peak-shave" during the > morning and evening hours, when shower usage peaks in hotels. The > large > temperature boost afforded by GFX will also guarantee hot-showers for > late-risers. > > ===================================================================== > Carmine Vasile, CEO Voice: 516-758-6271 > WaterFilm Energy Inc. Fax: 516-758-0438 > P.O. Box 48 Email: gfx-ch@msn.com > Oakdale, NY 11769 > ===================================================================== > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 16 10:05:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA03900 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 10:05:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA06309 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 10:04:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25421; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:57:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:51:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25159 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:50:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25134 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:49:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA09053 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:53:35 -0500 Message-id: <1367555@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 16 Nov 97 09:58:49 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Massive walls To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 510 --- You wrote: Thermal mass taps the "mild" (comparatively) temp. of the earth and "leaches" this temp. into the dwelling. --- end of quoted material --- Thanks for the introduction to the "New Physics". My old physics says, heat flows from hot to cold. If the earth temperature is lower than the temperature you aim to maintain indoors, you have a constant flow of energy from the dwelling to the earth. Earth, particularly earth with noticeable moisture content, is a fairly good conductor. And, if there is any flowing groundwater adjacent to the building, it has nearly infinite capacity to pull heat away which has been leaked from the dwelling to the surrounding earth. Insulation is used to slow down the rate of heat loss. In hot climates, the earth temperature may be quite close to the desired indoor condition, and this is a good thing - no insulation needed. In most of the US, you do better with insulation. There is some confusion here about thermal mass replacing insulation. When the heat flow is in one direction for a sustained period of time, the mass has no significant effect. BTW - my house (in central NH, 8000+ DD) has a finished basement level with very heavy perimeter insulation (4 inches of extruded foam, tapering to 2 inches at the footing, plus 1/2 inch of EPS on the inside. There is no insulation beneath the floor slab, a conscious decision, to have a good earth connection so that the building would never freeze. This has been achieved, but at a cost that there is a continuous heat flow to the earth, such that the equilibrium temperature of the basement is below 60F. Warm air from the greenhouse is blown down to the basement level anytime it is sunny. I wouldn't do this again (no slab insulation) because the space needs a constant small supply of heat to remain at comfort temperatures. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 16 11:25:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA06148 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:25:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA22783 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:24:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27162; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:20:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:15:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA26782 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:14:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26778 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:14:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA00540; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:19:10 -0800 Message-ID: <346F1B95.AF46DBFF@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:13:09 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: carmine vasile , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: Fw: GBlist: Hotel "Peak-Shaving" with Gray Water Heat Recycling & GFX X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <011e948541510b7UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 511 I have to apologize for and qualify my earlier posting. I'm sorry I was out of line with my comments but I was offended by what seemed like advertising copy rather than a submission to a discussion forum. I apologize for being out of line and I was serious when I said that I am convinced i.e. a supporter of the applied technology and will be using one in the future. What would be useful (I think) on the GB forum is a discussion of the technology, the potential for enhancing its application throughout a waste system (meaning a solid system application) and anything else related to waste water heat recovery but not just promotion that is directed to the sale of the product. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 16 12:09:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA07854 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:09:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA03272 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:09:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28486; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:05:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:58:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28090 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:57:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from luna.oit.unc.edu (luna.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28084 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:57:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from titan.oit.unc.edu (titan.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.14]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA07828 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:01:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (london@localhost) by titan.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA05512 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:01:36 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: titan.oit.unc.edu: london owned process doing -bs Newsgroups: alt.solar.thermal Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:01:33 -0500 (EST) From: "Lawrence F. London, Jr." X-Sender: london@titan.oit.unc.edu To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: RFI: installing hot water heater in bathroom - safety precautions needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 512 I am planning to install a hot water heater in a small insulated closet on an elevated platform in my bathroom. Given average moisture levels usually encountered in a bathroom are there any special precautions that must be taken to eliminate the risk of shock from ground fault currents? The heater is 220 volt; the closet it will be installed in will be fairly isolated thermally. Would this installation be too risky regardless of precautions taken? I've never heard of ground fault circuit breakers for 220VAC. Thanks for any replies. Lawrence London -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Support your local organic market farmer, buy products bearing the BuyGreen and Sustainably Grown (natural, ecological & biointensive) labels http://sunSITE.unc.edu/InterGarden london@sunSITE.unc.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 16 17:52:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA18541 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:52:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA21987 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:52:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08340; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:44:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA07787 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:43:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin51.mail.aol.com (mrin51.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.161]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA07783 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:43:45 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin51.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA02119; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:47:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:47:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971116174701_-591700501@mrin51.mail.aol.com> To: terrain@cow-net.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: co2 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 513 John Salmen said... >>I once came upon a reference that said there was far greater tree loss as a result of urban development than in forestry logging operations.<< Interesting... Anyone know for sure if that's so? Rob Harrison ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 16 17:52:56 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA18556 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:52:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA22049 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:52:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08352; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:48:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:44:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA07841 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:44:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin84.mail.aol.com (mrin84.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.194]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA07837 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:44:06 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin84.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA23737 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:47:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:47:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971116174718_747781361@mrin84.mail.aol.com> To: Pbsustain@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: recycled content restaurant construction Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 514 Phil, Where are you located? In my experience, while lots of preliminary research on materials can be done with the excellent guides you've found (plus REDI Guide, on Oikos), the next step is finding which of those materials are available and have been used locally with success, preferably by the contractor with whom you'll be working. In Seattle, we're lucky to have the Environmental Home Center. They stock many of these materials--sort of like an EcoHome Depot! (Portland has a similar store--Environmental Building Supplies.) Everyone in the city who's doing this kind of work ends up there at one time or another, and gives feedback on how materials perform. The staff is a great source for info on what really works in our part of the world. I'm sure there are similar places elsewhere. Rob Harrison Seattle In response to... >>>I'm >utilizing lots of product directories, Harris, RPG, Sweets, etc. In >particular, I'm looking for a quarry tile or equivalent, roofing materials, >plaster/stucco, and vinyl siding (or similar ). Any solid contacts would be >appreciated.<< ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 16 20:54:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA24015 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:54:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA01188 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:54:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA14453; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:50:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:45:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA14140 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:45:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin38.mail.aol.com (mrin38.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA14136 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:45:27 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin38.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id UAA01932 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:48:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:48:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971116204844_1271422063@mrin38> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Constructed Wetlands Septic System in NJ? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 515 Anyone out there done a permitted single-family subsurface flow constructed wetlands septic system in New Jersey, specifically in Morris County? Rob Harrison Seattle ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 16 22:42:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA27341 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:42:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA28853 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:42:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA18088; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:38:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:33:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17665 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:33:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17660 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:33:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id WlO16434; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:36:12 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Rubble Trench Foundations, again Message-ID: <19971116.223108.6895.0.strawboss94@juno.com> References: <199711170050.TAA18268@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 5-8 From: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:36:12 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 516 Here in Florida we found a 100' roll of "sock" which you slide over the black 4" perf pipe and claims to block all silt/sand/dirt/et al.m It deletes the need for gravel which used to be required for septic drains here. We used in in our french drain to daylight. Bought it at Lowe's. Looks sort of like a fire hose when its rolled up but weighs next to nothing. speireag@linguist.dartmouth,edugrea x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 16 22:47:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA27912 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:47:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA00332 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:47:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA18561; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:43:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:39:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA18141 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:38:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18132; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:38:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from frazer (ip41.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.41]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA06465; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:42:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971117033941.0071bd48@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:39:41 -0500 To: ee-building@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: GBlist: magnasite floors Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, achpa@dis.anl.gov Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 517 Coming back from the EEBA and the FREE conferences, I had some time to look at Wright's early home & studio in Oak Park. Several floors are magnasite on top of wood flooring and are of spectacular beauty given his play of daylighting and early electric light. "Magnasite is (magnesium chloride + H20) + (magnesium oxide) + (hardwood & softwood sawdust) + (colorant); it is non-combustible, highly resistant to oils & greases and high strength permits thickness of as little as 1/2 inch." - FLW Research Center. Does anyone have any 1 - cost, 2 - durability, 3 - sustainability experience with it ??? thanks, -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 17 01:02:56 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA01614 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:02:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA01504 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:02:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA21802; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 00:58:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 17 Nov 1997 00:53:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA21516 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 00:53:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from bendnet.com (tumalo.bendnet.com [199.2.205.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA21512 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 00:53:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from Bob.bendnet.com (b18.bendnet.com [206.163.37.28]) by bendnet.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/bendnet-MX) with SMTP id VAA00999 for ; Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:56:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971116214919.0068ab70@bendnet.com> X-Sender: bfoster@bendnet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:49:19 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Bob Foster Subject: GBlist: Glass Type for Passive Solar Construction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 518 Hello, Greenbuilders! I have been lurking on the list for a couple of months and have been impressed with the variety of the subjects and the amount of valuable information. Now I have need of your expertise. I am building a new home for my family on a sunny, south sloping lot in Bend, Oregon. I am trying to incorporate passive solar and energy conserving construction in this house which is my first project as an owner/builder. My question today is about what glass I should specify in the windows. I have been getting information from the various window companies that does not jive with my (limited) knowledge of how passive solar works. It seems that all of the folks I talk to want me to get their Low-E 2 glass with a winter U-value of .30 and a shading coefficient of .47. (The second pane is clear glass in a typical insulating unit). I think (but I'm guessing) that I would do well to use this glass in windows on the north and west (and possibly east) sides of the house, but that I should use a Low-E glass with a higher shading coefficient on the south. The glass I'm considering for the south has a winter U-value of .33 and a shading coefficient of .75. The south roof over- hang will shade the windows in the summer. Bend has a fairly cold climate (I don't know the number of degree days) with typical winter lows in the teens and occasional single digits and summertime highs rarely exceeding 90 degrees F. What is your opinion of the best glass to use? What other issues should I consider before I order the windows? Thanks very much! Bob Foster bfoster@bendnet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 17 02:41:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA04019 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:41:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA18717 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:41:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA24308; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:37:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:32:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA24043 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:32:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin46.mail.aol.com (mrin46.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.156]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA24038 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:32:20 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin46.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id CAA24730; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:35:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:35:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971117023538_412488146@mrin46.mail.aol.com> To: bfoster@bendnet.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Glass Type for Passive Solar Construction Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 519 >>What is your opinion of the best glass to use? << This question came up in a Point/Counterpoint on passive solar in the Northwest in the Fall '96 issue of the _EcoBuilding Times_. To liberally crib from and paraphrase Mark Frankel's take on it... Low-e coatings _somewhat_ reduce the amount of sunlight (short-wave radiation) a window allows to pass through, thereby reducing solar gain. However, they _significantly_ reduce the heat loss (long-wave radiation) from the window at night and in periods of low insolation, resulting in much better net energy performance over the course of a year. Use the best low-e glass you can afford. Mark is with Ecotope, Inc., an energy consulting firm here in Seattle. E-mail me privately if you like for info on how to get a copy of the magazine. Rob Harrison ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 17 10:19:47 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA16533 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:19:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA18152 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:19:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02916; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:15:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:10:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02573 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:10:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02569 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:10:09 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KSR18411; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:12:44 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:12:23 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Electric Utility Deregulation Message-ID: <19971117.092155.3718.1.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,7-8,13-14,16-17,20-27 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 520 Warning: The following is an announcement of an upcoming event. There has been much recent debate concerning the legality of such announcements on this group. The November meeting of the San Antonio Sustainable Building Coalition will feature John Hildreath from the Coalition for Affordable Power Texas (CAP). Mr. Hildreath will be speaking on the topic of Electric Utility Deregulation. Deregulation should be a topic of concern for all Texans. Even though the state legislature has post-poned deregulation until the year 2000 this issue has the potential to affect the monthly electric bill and economy of all home and business owners attached to a commercial electric grid. CAP feels there are some very fundamental things Texans should know about electric utility deregulation and it's potential impact. The meeting is scheduled for Tuesday, November 25, 1997, 7:00 PM at the First Unitarian Church of San Antonio. This is a free and open meeting and the public is invited. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 17 13:15:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA22971 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:15:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA08288 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11416; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:06:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA10995 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:05:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10986 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:05:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA06493; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:17:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3470885F.7B42@arb.ca.gov> Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:09:35 -0800 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Subject: GBlist: Re: natural paving products Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 521 Re: non-compacting walking path for lagoon/wetland area, have you contacted Nature Conservancy (http://www.tnc.org/) or state/natl. govt. ecosystem folks who restore and manage wetlands areas that have public access? I recall walking in such areas managed by these groups but don't know the details. My favorites are the little raised walkways in the Olympic Peninsula, but it could be too expensive for your budget...Tom -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 17 13:20:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA23101 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:20:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA10008 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11819; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:16:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:12:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA11471 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:12:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin52.mail.aol.com (mrin52.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.162]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11467 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:12:34 -0500 (EST) From: MHillLEDA@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin52.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA09707 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:15:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:15:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971117131551_-591634066@mrin52.mail.aol.com> To: SOLAR783@aol.com cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: questions Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 522 >" I would also be interested to know >what area of forest is required to balance a given energy value This may have already been answered... I noticed a recent message (Malcolm Scott ,I think) quoted 5175 pounds of CO2 fixation per year per acre of trees. In metric speak thats about 2.4 tonnes. The average U.S. citizen is responsible for around 16 tonnes of CO2 emissions per year, so you would need 6.7 acres of trees per person to make a balance. (Someone else on the list also mentioned that young trees can fix two or three times more CO2 than mature woodlands - you can take this into account if you wish, but it's still quite a lot of trees....) Matthew Hill Leeds Environmental Design Associates p.s. As a European member of this list it is encouraging to find there are a lot of you over the sea in the U.S. who clearly don't adopt your governments policy of "stuff the rest of the world, we're not signing up to any global CO2 reduction treaty even if we're the most energy profligate place on the planet " . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 17 16:05:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA29898 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:05:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA00795 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:05:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18169; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:01:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:57:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17754 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17747 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:56:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.175] (pa-ppp37.hevanet.com [204.119.60.49]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17146 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:59:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <971116174701_-591700501@mrin51.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:52:37 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: co2 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 523 >John Salmen said... >>>I once came upon a reference that said there was far greater tree loss as a >result of urban development than in forestry logging operations.<< Historically, there have been some surprising reasons for deforestation. One was glass-making, using wood for fuel. Fernand Braudel describes small-scale 18th century English glass factories that consumed over 100 cords per day. In the case of my own town here in Oregon, in the 1870's a new company decided to mine and smelt iron ore found in local volcanic basalt, by using ancient Douglas fir trees as a source of charcoal. The company cut down about 10,000 acres of old growth in just a few years. After it was gone, they formed the land company that developed the town. So it would not be accurate to say urbanization caused the deforestation; the trees were gone before the town was developed. I would guess a similar sequence of events happened elsewhere. For example, I wonder if the first intensive assault on American forests may have been led by the shipping industry. After I read Braudel's description of how the Mediterranean basin was deforested by shipbuilding, I started thinking about those 19th century photographs of coastal harbors like Boston and New York with hundreds of ships in port, all of which were almost solid wood construction and multiple-masted, each mast cut from a single tree. The masts had to be tall enough to run from the keel up to the height necessary to accomodate sets of two or three main sheets, so the masts look to have been about 90-100 feet in height. Imagine the number and size of the trees for masts in thousands of wood ships. And the wood for the ships themselves; and the wood for the piers, and the wood for the warehouses and crates and wagons...shipping would have impacted forests far beyond the cities it served. Much of the deforested land in the US and Canada has never been urbanized. Think of Maine or British Columbia, or Alaska and the Tongass forest today. In the case of the Mediterranean, the theory is that deforestation was followed by other human activities, like herding goats, that changed the climate and soils and kept the forests from growing back. Perhaps in our case urbanization prevents reforestation? Just thinking out loud, Mike :^) O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 17 16:16:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA29998 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:16:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA03971 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:16:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18771; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:12:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:08:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA18421 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:08:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA18417 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:08:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA07505 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:11:47 -0500 Message-id: <1380198@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 17 Nov 97 16:17:02 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Cellulose spray challenges / thick walls To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 524 --- You wrote: In a 10 inch wall, with separate 2x6 and 2x4 sections, the studs could touch or be quite close if not staggered. --- end of quoted material --- Never used a 2x6 wall in a double stud wall - why would you? In 11-1/2 inch thick wall, the 2x4s are separated by 4-1/2 inches of insulation - seems like plenty! Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 17 17:48:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA05566 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:48:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA27932 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:48:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22529; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:44:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:39:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA22083 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:39:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA22079 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.18] (blf18.acadia.net [205.217.217.18]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA03735 for ; Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:43:11 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:41:31 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Glass Type for Passive Solar Construction Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: RO X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 525 On a recent project in Maine, a small nature center for the Maine Audubon Society, we had good results with Marvin Windows. Marvin offers two glazing options: "Low-E 2", with solar heat gain coefficient of 0.40 and center of glass U-values of about 0.31 to 0.35; and "Hardcoat Low E" with SHGC of 0.71 and center of glass U-values of about 0.32 to 0.37. We used Low-E 2 on east, west and north, and Hardcoat Low E on the south. The preponderance of glass area was to the south. There was no discernable difference in glass tint or light transmission between the glazings. We're grateful to Marc Rosenbaum for first alerting us to the lack of solar heat gain available from some of the newer low-e glazings. - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 18 09:49:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA22880 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:49:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA28859 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:48:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14807; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:44:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:38:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14215 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:38:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14190; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:37:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA70338; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 07:40:15 -0700 Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 07:40:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: carmine vasile , "greenbuilding@crest.org" , ee-building@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: stack vent heat-exchanger In-Reply-To: <346F1B95.AF46DBFF@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 526 Further to the discussion of below, does anyone have a contact name for the manufacturer (Vaughn?) of the above? It would be especially useful to test in a home like ours where our composting toilet vents into the stack vent with a small fan. Any useful feedback would be greatly appreciated. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, John Salmen wrote: > > I have to apologize for and qualify my earlier posting. I'm sorry I was > out of line with my comments but I was offended by what seemed like > advertising copy rather than a submission to a discussion forum. I > apologize for being out of line and I was serious when I said that I am > convinced i.e. a supporter of the applied technology and will be using > one in the future. What would be useful (I think) on the GB forum is a > discussion of the technology, the potential for enhancing its > application throughout a waste system (meaning a solid system > application) and anything else related to waste water heat recovery but > not just promotion that is directed to the sale of the product. > > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S. > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 18 11:04:21 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA24531 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:04:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA18547 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:04:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17990; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:00:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:54:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17508 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:54:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17504 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:54:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.199] (1Cust199.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.199]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA13251 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 07:58:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711181558.HAA13251@germany.it.earthlink.net> Subject: GBlist: New Policy on Announcements Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 08:01:27 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 527 The issue of announcements on the list was one of our more spirited debates. Thanks to all who took the time to share thoughts on the issue. Here's a brief report of the responses, many of which came to me in private email. Virtually everyone likes to know about events, products, web sites and other things that may not fit the flow of any current conversation. So, my effort to keep these "in context" has not been serving the group. Many people mentioned adding a word of warning to the subject line that would allow people to easily screen out specific announcements. In fact, many of us need to make better use of the subject line for all our messages. By a 2:1 margin, the commenters supported short announcements with a URL or email address for more information over long, press release style announcements. So, here's a statement of the current policy on announcements: The Green Building Discussion Group welcomes announcements about products, events, web sites and other information resources that have a direct bearing on sustainable building design and construction. Announcements should be _brief_ and contain a URL or email address where more information may be obtained. Announcements should be identified in the subject line of the message with words such as Announcement, Event, Product, Web Site, etc. Thanks, Bruce S -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 18 12:37:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA26860 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:37:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA14881 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:37:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22769; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:33:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:28:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22274 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:28:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22260 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:28:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id McB20310; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:31:47 EST To: IdahoCFM@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Glazing limitations Message-ID: <19971118.133034.8327.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <971114174359_288004009@mrin39> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-23,26-30 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:31:47 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 528 On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:44:00 -0500 (EST) IdahoCFM@aol.com writes: >I have a commercial application in which I'm limited by design >constraint to >a reflective coating on a 10 foot high rounded curtain wall corner. >Does >anybody have any suggestions for suppliers of glass that can give me >good >K(e) values on glazing with a reflective coating? > >Thanks! > >Chris Meyer >Parkwood Business Properties >Coeur d'Alene, ID >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ >Hi, Two thoughts on above. I have been discussing this very topic with Terry Williams at Wade Williams in BC, Canada. They use Vision Wall (a division of Siemans) which incorporates Corning glass. I also recently picked up some information from Pittsburg Plate Glass which has a variety of glass, including a reflective. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 18 18:10:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA01852 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:10:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA11004 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:10:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA06890; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:06:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:59:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA06428 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:59:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from c2smtp.payette.com (c2smtp.payette.com [199.232.148.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06424 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:59:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from NetWare MHS (SMF70) by c2smtp.payette.com via Connect2-SMTP 4.01.b32G; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:59:02 -0500 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:58:55 -5000 From: Daniel Arons Organization: Payette Associates Inc. To: idahocfm@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Subject: Re: GBlist: Glazing limitations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.01.b32G MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 529 I believe that Visionwall's restriction is in the range of 5'x12'. The issue for their system would be the film size and strength. I believe also that there are probably premiums (premia) to pay beyond a certain size... > > On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:44:00 -0500 (EST) IdahoCFM@aol.com writes: >I > have a commercial application in which I'm limited by design > >constraint to >a reflective coating on a 10 foot high rounded > curtain wall corner. >Does >anybody have any suggestions for > suppliers of glass that can give me >good >K(e) values on glazing > with a reflective coating? > >Thanks! > >Chris Meyer >Parkwood > Business Properties >Coeur d'Alene, ID > >___________________________________________________________________ > __ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and > Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to > greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >___________________________________________________________________ > __ >Hi, > > Two thoughts on above. I have been discussing this very > topic with Terry Williams at Wade Williams in BC, Canada. > They use Vision Wall (a division of Siemans) which incorporates > Corning glass. I also recently picked up some information from > Pittsburg Plate Glass which has a variety of glass, including a > reflective. > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > Boca Raton, FL > ____________________________________________________________________ > _ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to > greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ____________________________________________________________________ > _ > ********************** Daniel Arons Architect Payette Associates, Inc (617)342-8201 ext. 324 darons@payette.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 18 20:01:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA03605 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:01:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA10093 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:01:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11106; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:57:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:52:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10743 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:52:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from shell.wco.com (root@shell.wco.com [199.4.94.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA10738 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:52:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from kingfish (aurora21.wco.com [206.155.55.21]) by shell.wco.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/WCO-18jul97) with SMTP id QAA13704 for ; Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:56:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971118165622.006d76b8@wco.com> X-Sender: soldata@wco.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:56:28 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: bill mattinson Subject: GBlist: Re: Glass Type for Passive Solar Construction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 530 At 02:00 AM 11/17/97 -0500, you wrote: >What is your opinion of the best glass to use? What other issues should >I consider before I order the windows? If you have access to a PC you might want to get a copy of the RESFEN software that is available free from LBL, a Dept of Energy research lab. The software can be downloaded from their website at http://eande.lbl.gov/BTP/resfen.html. While you cannot put your specific home in for analysis, it does allow you to vary the quantity, orientation, and type of window and then evaluate the energy use for each scenario. The version currently available is 2.4, although if you have a fairly powerful PC, you may want to call and ask for version 3.0 which runs an actual DOE2 simulation for each scenario (although still on their reference house - not your real passive home). One other deficit - they do not have weather data available for Bend, so you will have to pick from some other cities that might be similar. In version 2.4 there are only a few cities; in version 3.0 you get many more - some choices are Medford, Salt Lake City, Boise, Portland, Great Falls, etc. In any case, you are asking the right kind of questions. What you want to find out is whether the solar gains that will be blocked with low-E2 provides more comfort and economy in the summer than it loses in the winter. If it is even a close call, I usually suggest going with low-E2 if you don't intend to install AC. Without air conditioning, it can be tricky to stay cool enough for comfort in the summer. With the reduced heat gain from low-E2, you may enhance summer comfort and only pay a little more for winter heating. So if you are trying to accomplish year round comfort, don't intend to air condition, and have relatively inexpensive wood or gas heat - the low-E2 can be a winner. If you don't care at all about cooling (or have it licked by some other design strategy), then avoid spectrally selective (low-E2 type) glass. Also, some attention is paid to your question in Chapter 6 of Carmody's book "Residential Windows" available from Norton publishers and other sources. Or of course you could have an energy consultant do some detailed simulations of your actual house to fine tune the glass type, area, placement, overhangs, etc. Good luck, Bill Mattinson SOLDATA Energy Consulting ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 19 10:26:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA12039 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:26:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA07716 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:26:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28099; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:21:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:15:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27672 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27665 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:15:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA55162; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:17:46 -0700 Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:17:46 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: MHillLEDA@aol.com Cc: SOLAR783@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: average daily electrical consumption outside NA In-Reply-To: <971117131551_-591634066@mrin52.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 531 I would like to know from our international members what the average UK, European and Japanese Kwh/day are. This should not include electrical heating, just lights, appliances, etc. Can anyone post average numbers? We now consume 4.7 Kwh/day average over the last several years for home and office, but what is a reasonable load to expect from a conserver family of 4, for sizing a PV system? We have done detailed calculations, but want to compare with existing actual energy consumption in more conserving countries than Canada. Thanks for your constructive input. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Mon, 17 Nov 1997 MHillLEDA@aol.com wrote: > > >" I would also be interested to know > >what area of forest is required to balance a given energy value > > This may have already been answered... I noticed a recent message (Malcolm > Scott ,I think) quoted 5175 pounds of CO2 fixation per year per acre of > trees. > > In metric speak thats about 2.4 tonnes. The average U.S. citizen is > responsible for around 16 tonnes of CO2 emissions per year, so you would need > 6.7 acres of trees per person to make a balance. > > (Someone else on the list also mentioned that young trees can fix two or > three times more CO2 than mature woodlands - you can take this into account > if you wish, but it's still quite a lot of trees....) > > > Matthew Hill > Leeds Environmental Design Associates > > p.s. > > As a European member of this list it is encouraging to find there are a lot > of you over the sea in the U.S. who clearly don't adopt your governments > policy of "stuff the rest of the world, we're not signing up to any global > CO2 reduction treaty even if we're the most energy profligate place on the > planet " . > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 19 10:51:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA12422 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:51:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA13705 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:51:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29910; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:47:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:41:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29214 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:41:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29194; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:41:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA01055; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:45:42 -0800 Message-ID: <34730840.C44A8626@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:39:44 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: carmine vasile , "greenbuilding@crest.org" , ee-building@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: stack vent heat-exchanger X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 532 Vaughn is only the manufacturer of the GFX and Carmine Vasile is the inventor. I have not found a heat exchanger dedicated to either vent or water. There are a number of products or materials designed for similar purposes i.e piping or wrap that is designed to facilitate heat exchange from air, gas or water flows but Carmines design is the only one I know that links exchange to a point of use (back into a shower). A number of possibilities exist to link the heat to either air or water heating (storage) but there does not seem to be any existing applications or designs that maximize that potential for a whole house system in the similar way that the GFX has maximized the exchange to a point of continuous use. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Further to the discussion of below, does anyone have a contact name > for > the manufacturer (Vaughn?) of the above? It would be especially useful > > to test in a home like ours where our composting toilet vents into the > stack > vent with a small fan. Any useful feedback would be greatly > appreciated. > _________________________________________________________ > Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office > buildings > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and > office > Web Site [under construction]: > http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > _____________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 19 22:28:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA25976 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:28:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA18389 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:28:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA27510; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:24:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:17:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA27154 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:17:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27148 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id W_J13602; Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:19:48 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re crazy, but..long wall Message-ID: <19971119.221502.6431.1.strawboss94@juno.com> References: <971119210509_1771929688@mrin79> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-11,14 From: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:19:48 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 533 FractalMom@aol.com . >snip< x>fill. Does anyone know the absolute (is there one?) length that you >can run >a bale infill wall? At what point is anything compromised? You need a buttress wall about every 30' max. x > We will use a traditional truss system roof, Be prepared to spend a lot of money on those. Here in the South, they cost twice as much as regular trusses and you WILL definately need to go with p&b and not loadbearing with attic trusses. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 20 09:23:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA08383 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:23:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA07072 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:23:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12373; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:19:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:14:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11740 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:14:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11733; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:13:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA130646; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:16:18 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:16:18 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: "Robert W. Tom" , speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu, strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: natural pond liner In-Reply-To: <346F9AE6.76816A57@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 534 John: when you or anyone else can find a reference for your description of natural pond liner (as described below), I will try it next spring. Blueprints I will not use, but straw, clay, and perhaps newspapers would be a good idea for a greywater treatment pond with fish, cattails, water hyacinth and a solar fountain. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, John Salmen wrote: > > There is a process (for which I wish I could remember the term) where > organic material (- air) decomposes to form a membrane. The process is a > naturally occurring one and has formed the basis for lakes, ponds, etc. > Probably similar in principle to my all favorite biological smutchzdecke > i.e. a filter that accumulates biological material that eventually > becomes impervious. It has been done intentionally to form cachement > basins in dry areas. Coconut husks were used in one application. In > other words straw, grass, newspaper, old building plans, anything of > that ilk. (but remember newspaper and old building plans can live again) > > I've mentioned this before (starting to repeat myself) as an alt. method > for pond liners. Don't see why it shouldn't work as a filter and then > continue its job as a membrane. > > John Salmen BCJS > TERRAIN E.D.S. > > Robert W. Tom wrote: > > > Another material that may work is newspaper. > > > > Here in Ontario, when a new septic field is constructed, it is > > specified by the Ministry of the Environment (which oversees the > > installation of septic systems), that newspaper be placed over > > the crushed stone surrounding the perforated weeping tile in > > order to prevent the subsequent sand & soil layers from washing > > down and clogging up the crushed stone and tile. > > > > The theory *may* be that by the time the newspaper decomposes, > > the dirt will have been consolidated to a sufficient degree. > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 20 09:26:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA08618 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:26:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA08012 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:26:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12661; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:18:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12188 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:18:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin38.mail.aol.com (mrin38.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12181 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:18:15 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin38.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA09472; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:21:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:21:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971120092137_-53857291@mrin38> To: bfoster@bendnet.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Glass Type for Passive Solar Construction Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 535 Bob Foster wrote about building a passive solar house: << What is your opinion of the best glass to use? What other issues should I consider before I order the windows? Thanks very much!>> Bob, Your instincts were generally correct. Typically you desire a low U-factor and high solar transmittance for the south orientation. You may want a low-SHGC glazing for the west to help reduce potential overheating... especially if you have a lot of west-facing glazing. However, this "general rule of thumb" applies AS YOU ARE DESIGNING.... you can actually design the glass and mass based on a variety of glazings.... even those better optomixed for solar control! It is just a matter of how much glass and how well you catpure, store and distribute the gains you get! In other words... it's not that you can't do it with low-e squared-type products.... you just have to design for it... and do you have a big cooling load? Sufficient summer shading? all things to consider... If you have the opportunity, my vote is to optimize the glazing by orientation, maximizing my views, managing both the gains and the losses. Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 20 12:00:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12262 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:00:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA18623 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:00:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18216; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:56:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:50:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17682 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:50:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17676 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:50:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov (mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.26]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA19261 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:54:33 -0500 Received: by mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BCF5AB.1118EC30@mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov>; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:54:33 -0500 Message-ID: From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: GBlist: Vestfrost refrigerator Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:54:30 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 536 I know the issue of good, energy-efficient refrigerators has come up here before -- talk of refrigerants, of Sunfrost's efficiency, etc. But I'm looking for reviews and comments on Vestfrost. I'm interested in purchasing their 115v refrigerator/freezer which seems to be highly efficient, though not as high as a Sunfrost. Has anyone had experience with this regfrigerator? How long a life can I expect? Thanks. Olivia james3@niehs.nih.gov ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 20 12:02:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12301 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:02:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19098 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:02:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18374; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:58:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:53:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17861 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:53:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from dns.img.net (DNS.img.net [207.34.144.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17851; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:53:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from prayan (port104.img.net [207.34.144.104]) by dns.img.net (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with ESMTP id AAA277; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:05:16 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Visser, Prayan" To: , Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #446 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:38:58 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19971120170515228.AAA277@port104.img.net> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 537 RE: GFX heat exchanger- while this would work fine in a shower situation to preheat cold water supply, how do we recycle heat from hot bath, dishwasher drain, etc.? If there is no simultaneous cold water flow, how to capture the heat, I think a second preheat watertank would solve that where the drain is connected to a metal tank with some wraps of copper pipe to provide heat transfer. However a large dump of hot water at high fast flow would be hard to exchange without a holding tank. Do we need two tanks that exchange to one another? Or a long run of coil that thermosyphons around a long copper winding drain? Is there a simpler solution? I think a concrete tank in the basem. to run the drain through, would capture most waste heat and the cold water can also have a preheat coil in there.Only needs to be 100 gallon, say 6x6 by 4' high, what does that make? prayan visser, village scale eco design. phone 250-490-7351, cell, voice home: 497-5146 email:pvisser@img.net prayan visser, village scale eco design. phone 250-490-7351, cell, voice home: 497-5146 email:pvisser@img.net ---------- > From: greenbuilding-digest > To: greenbuilding-digest@crest.org > Subject: greenbuilding-digest V1 #446 > Date: Wednesday, November 19, 1997 11:00 PM > > > greenbuilding-digest Thursday, November 20 1997 Volume 01 : Number 446 > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:17:46 -0700 (MST) > From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" > Subject: GBlist: average daily electrical consumption outside NA > > I would like to know from our international members what the average UK, > European and Japanese Kwh/day are. This should not include electrical heating, > just lights, appliances, etc. Can anyone post average numbers? We now > consume 4.7 Kwh/day average over the last several years for home and > office, but what is a reasonable load to expect from a conserver family of > 4, for sizing a PV system? We have done detailed calculations, but want to > compare with existing actual energy consumption in more conserving > countries than Canada. Thanks for your constructive input. > _________________________________________________________ > Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings > - - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > _____________________________________________________ > > > On Mon, 17 Nov 1997 MHillLEDA@aol.com wrote: > > > > > >" I would also be interested to know > > >what area of forest is required to balance a given energy value > > > > This may have already been answered... I noticed a recent message (Malcolm > > Scott ,I think) quoted 5175 pounds of CO2 fixation per year per acre of > > trees. > > > > In metric speak thats about 2.4 tonnes. The average U.S. citizen is > > responsible for around 16 tonnes of CO2 emissions per year, so you would need > > 6.7 acres of trees per person to make a balance. > > > > (Someone else on the list also mentioned that young trees can fix two or > > three times more CO2 than mature woodlands - you can take this into account > > if you wish, but it's still quite a lot of trees....) > > > > > > Matthew Hill > > Leeds Environmental Design Associates > > > > p.s. > > > > As a European member of this list it is encouraging to find there are a lot > > of you over the sea in the U.S. who clearly don't adopt your governments > > policy of "stuff the rest of the world, we're not signing up to any global > > CO2 reduction treaty even if we're the most energy profligate place on the > > planet " . > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:39:44 -0800 > From: John Salmen > Subject: GBlist: Re: stack vent heat-exchanger > > Vaughn is only the manufacturer of the GFX and Carmine Vasile is the > inventor. I have not found a heat exchanger dedicated to either vent or > water. There are a number of products or materials designed for similar > purposes i.e piping or wrap that is designed to facilitate heat exchange > from air, gas or water flows but Carmines design is the only one I know > that links exchange to a point of use (back into a shower). A number of > possibilities exist to link the heat to either air or water heating > (storage) but there does not seem to be any existing applications or > designs that maximize that potential for a whole house system in the > similar way that the GFX has maximized the exchange to a point of > continuous use. > > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S. > > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > Further to the discussion of below, does anyone have a contact name > > for > > the manufacturer (Vaughn?) of the above? It would be especially useful > > > > to test in a home like ours where our composting toilet vents into the > > stack > > vent with a small fan. Any useful feedback would be greatly > > appreciated. > > _________________________________________________________ > > Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > > - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office > > buildings > > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and > > office > > Web Site [under construction]: > > http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > > e-mail: > > _____________________________________________________ > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:19:48 EST > From: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) > Subject: GBlist: Re crazy, but..long wall > > FractalMom@aol.com > . > >snip< > x>fill. Does anyone know the absolute (is there one?) length that you > >can run > >a bale infill wall? At what point is anything compromised? > > You need a buttress wall about every 30' max. > > x > > We will use a traditional truss system roof, > > Be prepared to spend a lot of money on those. Here in the South, they > cost twice as much as regular trusses and you WILL definately need to go > with p&b and not loadbearing with attic trusses. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------ > > End of greenbuilding-digest V1 #446 > *********************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 20 14:19:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15100 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26787 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:19:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24555; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:11:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24220 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:10:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24214 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA04332 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:14:38 -0500 Message-id: <1414814@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 20 Nov 97 14:19:52 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist:graywater reclaimer To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 538 a batch reclaier is made by Earthstar Energy Systems, 800 323-6749. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 20 14:27:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15237 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:27:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA28917 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:26:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25048; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:22:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:18:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24663 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:18:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24658 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:18:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA107110; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:20:20 -0700 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:20:19 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "James.Olivia" Cc: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: Re: GBlist: Vestfrost refrigerator In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 539 James: Both I and Marc Rosenbaum live with a Vestfrost fridge. We have also done detailed monitoring to see whether the manufacturer's claims were true under actual use. Although we like it, it is currently unplugged enjoying its annual 6-8 month vacation to extend its lifespan. Total cost for electricity to keep food cold is $5.00/year (@$0.0614/Kwh). Our fridge/freezer combination uses 0.88 Kwh/day but they have fridge that only uses .35 KWh/day. Sunfrost is not cost-effective and not appropriate for handicapped use or space saving principles.We purchased it from Photocomm. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, James.Olivia wrote: > > I know the issue of good, energy-efficient refrigerators has come up > here before -- talk of refrigerants, of Sunfrost's efficiency, etc. But > I'm looking for reviews and comments on Vestfrost. I'm interested in > purchasing their 115v refrigerator/freezer which seems to be highly > efficient, though not as high as a Sunfrost. Has anyone had experience > with this regfrigerator? How long a life can I expect? > > Thanks. > Olivia > james3@niehs.nih.gov > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 20 14:31:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15300 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:31:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA00023 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:30:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25566; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:26:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:22:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24982 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:22:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin44.mail.aol.com (mrin44.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24976 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:22:14 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin44.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA04851 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:25:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:25:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971120142537_30152599@mrin44.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: environmental costs of athletic shoes Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 540 I am real interested in information on the environmental impact of raw materials extraction, manufacture, transportation, use and disposal of athletic shoes. I'm interested in information for each of these categories and in the embodied energy of a pair of shoes. I'm also intersted in any programs shoe manufactureres and distributers have in place to reduce the impact of providing their products. I am interested in whether any of the manufacturers have incorporated changes in their corporate charter to address environmental issues. If anyone out there can give me even a clue, I'd be grateful. The information will eventually form part of a workshop on sustainable buildings for high school students. - Thanks Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 20 14:32:54 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15355 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:32:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA00512 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25800; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:24:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25177 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:24:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin54.mail.aol.com (mrin54.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.164]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25160 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:23:57 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin54.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA29512 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:27:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:27:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971120142721_665152408@mrin54.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: embodied energy of lights Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 541 Does anyone have any information on the embodied energy of ordinary incandesecnt light bulbs and compact flourescent lights? - Thanks, Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 20 14:53:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15938 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:53:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA06052 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:53:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26997; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:49:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:45:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26611 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:44:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from axil.intranet.ca (axil.intranet.ca [206.51.251.51]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26603 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:44:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.186.169.5] (ppp5-annex4.intranet.ca [206.186.169.5]) by axil.intranet.ca (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA04879 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:48:12 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: larsson@mail.intranet.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:50:49 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nils Larsson Subject: GBlist: Call for papers; GBC '98 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 542 The submission date for abstracts of technical papers to the GBC '98 conference (October 1998) has been extended to Friday, December 12, 1997. For general info, please refer to http://greenbuilding.ca . For further information about theme areas etc., please contact larsson@greenbuilding.ca. Nils Larsson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 20 17:56:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA22572 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA28352 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:55:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05739; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:51:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:47:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05366 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:47:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05361 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:47:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from eei.org by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: mail.eei.org [204.254.108.2]) id QQdqnr28011; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:51:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from WPDomain-Message_Server by eei.org with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:50:39 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:46:54 -0500 From: Harvey Sachs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: emobodied energy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 543 One way to get a pretty good "back-of-the-envelope" start is to ask the following question: "How does the cost of the energy used compare with the cost of the product?" After all, the price of the object must include the cost of all its embodied energy, all the way back to the raw materials processing. An incandescent 100w bulb lasting 1000 hr, will use 100 kWh over its life, which costs 5 - 15 times as much as the purchase price of the bulb. Even though manufacturers of light bulbs pay less for energy than consumers do, this strongly suggests that the embedded energy is a relatively small fraction of the life cycle energy use. For a $15 CFL that lasts 10,000 hr, the arithmetic will be similar: 18 w * 10,000 hr/1000whr/kwh = 180 kWh, or about $9 - $27 for electricity. Interestingly, at a rough level, the CFL with its electronic ballast weighs much more than the incandescent. Metal, glass, and the semiconductors all involve melting and energy-intensive processing. The amount of energy is (very roughly) proportional to weight, so it is not surprising that our little exercise suggests -but certainly doesn't prove - that the cfl may have more embodied energy than the incandescent. I still use cfls wherever possible! I think that (in general) the embodied/embedded energy (whatever the difference is!) in energy conversion devices is a small fraction of their life cycle energy use. How about building-related (non-transportation) counter-examples? Harvey M. Sachs Technical Director Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium >>> 11/20/97 02:27pm >>> Does anyone have any information on the embodied energy of ordinary incandesecnt light bulbs and compact flourescent lights? - Thanks, Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 20 20:01:41 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA24481 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:01:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA02133 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:01:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10473; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:57:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:52:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10076 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:52:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA10072 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:52:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (1Cust232.tnt4.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.114.232]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA05059; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:56:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19971120195603.007a6a20@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: wliebold@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:56:03 -0500 To: TBren46501@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Warren Liebold Subject: Re: GBlist: embodied energy of lights In-Reply-To: <971120142721_665152408@mrin54.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 544 At the risk of, whatever... "Compact Fluorescents, Radioisotopes and Solid Waste," Proceedings of 1992 ACEEE Summer Study on Energy Efficiency in Buildings The embedded energy is very small compared to the differences in energy consumption. At 02:27 PM 11/20/97 -0500, TBren46501@aol.com wrote: >Does anyone have any information on the embodied energy of ordinary >incandesecnt light bulbs and compact flourescent lights? - Thanks, Terry __________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 20 20:03:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA24500 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:03:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA02578 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 20:03:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10635; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:59:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:55:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10225 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:54:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA10221 for ; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:54:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (1Cust232.tnt4.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.114.232]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA06348; Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:58:37 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19971120195827.007a9d30@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: wliebold@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:58:27 -0500 To: Harvey Sachs , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Warren Liebold Subject: Re: GBlist: re: emobodied energy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 545 You fail to mention that you to compare the embedded energy of at least *ten* incandescents to one CFL. At 05:46 PM 11/20/97 -0500, Harvey Sachs wrote: > One way to get a pretty good "back-of-the-envelope" start is >to ask the following question: > >"How does the cost of the energy used compare with the >cost of the product?" After all, the price of the object must >include the cost of all its embodied energy, all the way back >to the raw materials processing. An incandescent 100w >bulb lasting 1000 hr, will use 100 kWh over its life, which >costs 5 - 15 times as much as the purchase price of the >bulb. Even though manufacturers of light bulbs pay less for >energy than >consumers do, this strongly suggests that the embedded >energy is a relatively small fraction of the life cycle energy >use. For a $15 CFL that lasts 10,000 hr, the arithmetic will >be similar: 18 w * 10,000 hr/1000whr/kwh = 180 kWh, or >about $9 - $27 for electricity. Interestingly, at a rough level, >the CFL with its electronic ballast weighs much more than >the incandescent. Metal, glass, and the semiconductors all >involve melting and energy-intensive processing. The >amount of energy is (very roughly) proportional to weight, so >it is not >surprising that our little exercise suggests -but certainly >doesn't prove - that the cfl may have more embodied energy >than the incandescent. I still use cfls wherever possible! > >I think that (in general) the embodied/embedded energy >(whatever the difference is!) in energy conversion devices is >a small fraction of their life cycle energy use. How about >building-related (non-transportation) counter-examples? > >Harvey M. Sachs >Technical Director >Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium > >>>> 11/20/97 02:27pm >>> >Does anyone have any information on the embodied energy >of ordinary >incandesecnt light bulbs and compact flourescent lights? - >Thanks, Terry >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 21 09:43:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA06584 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:43:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA01729 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:43:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24299; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:39:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:32:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23912 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:31:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA23908 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:31:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA12629 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:35:47 -0500 Message-id: <1423502@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 21 Nov 97 09:41:01 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Wood gasifiers To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 546 I am looking for central wood burning boilers which are high efficiency and clean burning - typically these are gasifiers. Products I am currently aware of include: Tarm 2000 - max output 140,000 Btu/hr Eshland Wood Gun - now called Gasifier - 100,000 to 500,000 Btu/hr. Dumont, Madawaska, and Jetstream are not still making wood boilers, to my best knowledge. I'm particularly interested in anything about wood fired cogen, also. Not looking for these projects at chip burners - too expensive. Thanks Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 21 10:29:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA07503 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:29:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA13234 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:29:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26733; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:25:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:21:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26377 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:20:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26373 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:20:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id K`J01721; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:24:07 EST To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Vestfrost refrigerator Message-ID: <19971121.112346.4495.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-11 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:24:07 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 547 Jorg, I read with interest your posting re: Vestfrost. I have heard of SunFrost but not Vestfrost. Please provide contact info, ie phone and address of company. Thanks. Cheers, Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Inc . Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 21 10:38:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA07718 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:38:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA15528 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:37:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27224; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:33:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:29:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26860 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:29:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26854 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:29:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA23442; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:33:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:32:51 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: recycler To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: pvisser@img.net X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199711210700.CAA21338@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 548 The GFX device is creating such a stir, not because it is the most efficient, but because it is simple and affordable. This means many people can use it and it will pay for itself fairly quickly. There have been many attempts to use heat recovery in buildings. Several of Canada's Advanced houses used it. THe Brampton house had a heat pump thatextracted heat from exhaust air and all exhaust water to heat hot water. Your holding ideas are what I think are the more practical/affordable for most homes now. The coil of copper must be long enough if you hope to get the most heat out of the waste water. Also, the big practical problem with a holding tank is that it must be hygenically sealed and not cause clogged sewer lines. To prevent summertime heat gain, I'd insulate the tank. Is this sort of what M Rosenbaum meant by a batch reclaimer? I also think your 100 gallon size is about right, but for $ reasons I think a discarded hot water tank with 4" drain lines punched in would work well (it is already insulated). Since the tank will not be under pressure, it is not difficult to seal the new drain pipe entrance holes or the cold water heat exchanger holes. The inefficiency with this system is heat losses from the tank to the interior while we wait for someone to use hot water. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group Bldg. E3 Room 2111D Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 21 12:05:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09715 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:05:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA08693 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:05:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01310; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:01:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:56:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00927 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00923 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:56:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA13739; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:08:31 -0800 Message-Id: <3475BE2E.5184@arb.ca.gov> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:00:30 -0800 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Subject: GBlist: environmental costs of athletic shoes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 549 TERRY: sounds like a fun project. The only thing I've heard of is recycling for the mercury switches used in the flashing red lights in some shoes (news item in an old issue of Env. Health Digest by Freshwater Foundation, check their web site). It was being done either by a non-profit group or by a certain shoe mfr., but the EPA toxics or superfund people should know too (they went after mercury in paint). Of course, there are the huaraches made out of old auto tires, which is at least one stage of "reuse"...Best wishes, Tom -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 21 14:15:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA12912 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:15:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA12548 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:15:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08385; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:11:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:04:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07673 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:04:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin53.mail.aol.com (mrin53.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.163]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07658 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:04:23 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin53.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA17285 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:07:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:07:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971121140747_1738582615@mrin53.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: co2 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 550 Mike O'Brien said... >>Historically, there have been some surprising reasons for deforestation.<< There's a book called "A Forest Journey"--can't think of the author at the moment--that details a few of these surprises, starting with forestry in the Roman Empire. Rob Harrison ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 21 14:15:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA12917 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:15:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA12558 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:15:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08381; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:11:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:04:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07666 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:04:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin52.mail.aol.com (mrin52.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.162]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07659 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:04:23 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin52.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA22668; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:07:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:07:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971121140741_-1709088169@mrin52.mail.aol.com> To: SACHS@ghpc.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: emobodied energy Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 551 Ray Cole is a professor at the University of British Columbia's Faculty of Architecture. His "research indicates that a building's operation consumes about 100 times the embodied energy used to build it. Cole concludes a 75% reduction in the energy used to operate a building must take place before the embodied energy of materials and construction becomes meaningful." (from Chris Stafford's "President's Message," _EcoBuilding Times_, Spring 1997) Not to say embodied energy is not worth taking into consideration, but it seems at the present time in the larger picture, energy conservation is paramount. Rob Harrison ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 21 14:33:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA13369 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:33:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA17273 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:33:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09368; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:29:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:24:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08920 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08916 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:24:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA65254; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:25:33 -0700 Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:25:33 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Beverly A. Weiter" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Vestfrost refrigerator In-Reply-To: <19971121.112346.4495.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 552 Beverly: Further to the request of below on the above topic, we got our VF from PHOTOCOMM 1-800 544-6466. Talk to Ron Kennedy or Mask Paddison. Hope this helps. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > > Jorg, > > I read with interest your posting re: Vestfrost. I have heard of > SunFrost but not Vestfrost. Please provide contact info, ie phone and > address of company. > Thanks. > > Cheers, > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors Inc . > Boca Raton, FL > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 21 14:41:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA13623 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:41:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA19546 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:41:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09960; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:37:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:33:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09604 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:33:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09600 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:33:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA17890; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:44:55 -0800 Message-Id: <3475E2D6.715D@arb.ca.gov> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:36:54 -0800 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Subject: GBlist: environmental costs of athletic shoes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 553 TERRY: just found the reference for shoes with mercury swithches, during friday filing frenzy. From Health & Env. Digest, 8(5): 43, 1994: Pat Carey, Haz. Waste Div., Minnesota Pollution Control Agency, 612.297.8680. The Minn. Waste Management Act banned the sale of such shoes; other items were also banned or restricted in terms disposal methods. L.A. Gear, 800.786.7820, sponsor of natl. collection & recall program for such shoes already sold (free postage available). -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 21 15:26:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA14661 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:26:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA02045 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:26:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12435; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:22:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:18:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA12057 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:18:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12043 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:17:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.84]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 4272300 ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:29:04 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971121152003.006993f4@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:20:03 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Insulation and Drop Ceilings In-Reply-To: <199711210700.CAA21338@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 554 I am consulting with a mental helath facility in Philadelphia who is expanding their office and program space into a facility previously used for light industrial purposes. The building is uninsulated block and flat roof with 2.5 inches rigid insulation. The floor to roof deck dimension is over 20 feet. They plan to stud out the walls and insulate them with fiberglass batts (I recommended wet-spray cellulose). They also plan to install a standard drop celing. Directly on top of the drop ceiling they plan to install fiberglass batt insulation. I have recommended against this for several reasons: 1) the ceiling plane is poruos in nature, 2) the fiberglass batts are porous in nature, 3) there will be many areas where there is no insulation (i.e. light fixtures), and 4) once anyone goes above the ceiling for any reason the batts cannot be replaced (numerous times I have seen batts laying all over the place above drop ceilings). In my opinion placing insulation directly on top of a drop ceiling is worthless. The money would be better spent on continuing the wall insulation up to the roof deck. Insulating a drop ceiling is an attempt to reduce the amount of volume of air that needs to be conditioned, my contention is that the volume of air above the drop celing will have about the same temperature whether there is insulation above the drop celing or not. Intuatively this rings true to me but I am having a hard time convincing the designers. My research to date has turned up one article in ASHRAE Journal from 1979 on the subject. Does anyone know of any reasearch, articles or information in this area? ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 21 15:59:56 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15563 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:59:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA11395 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:59:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14760; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:55:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:51:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA14258 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:51:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin58.mail.aol.com (mrin58.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.168]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA14254 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:51:17 -0500 (EST) From: MHillLEDA@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin58.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA21800; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:54:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:54:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971121155441_307085787@mrin58.mail.aol.com> To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: average daily electrical consumption outside NA Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 555 In a message dated 19/11/97 , you write: << I would like to know from our international members what the average UK, European and Japanese Kwh/day are. This should not include electrical heating, just lights, appliances, etc. >> I don't know of any average figures of the type you want. It's interesting that most "low energy " houses focus on heating rather than lights and appliances. A recent review of UK low energy houses had a few where figures were available, and ranged from 12 - 40 kWh/m2 per year. For a typical UK house of 120m2 , that works out at between 3.9 and 13KWh/day. One 3-bed eco-house I know that has a 4kWpeak photo-voltaic roof uses 7.4kWh /day and generates a little more electricity over the year than it uses. Total CO2 emissions for the UK per person are around 10 tonnes. (It's 16 tonnes for the USA - maybe you have a figure for Canada). Matthew Hill Leeds Environmental Design Associates ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 21 16:04:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA15698 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:04:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA12856 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:04:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15176; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:00:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:56:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA14812 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:56:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin47.mail.aol.com (mrin47.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.157]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA14808 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:56:22 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin47.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA15176; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:59:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:59:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971121155945_903236237@mrin47> To: msheffer@cyberia.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: Insulation and Drop Ceilings Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 556 In a message dated 11/21/97 4:31:00 PM, you wrote: <> Hi, Terry here. My experience is that drop ceilings are in fact very leaky. Like an order of magnitude more leaky than a sheetrock ceiling. FSEC did a study on unintended air flows in comercial buildings a couple of years ago. Check with Jim Cummings for their data on drop ceilings (Jim's number 407-638-1403). Based on their data I've estimated that the air leakage of a drop ceiling can be estimated using the power flow equation Q = CP^n, where Q = flow in cfm, C is the flow coefficient (based on FSEC data somewhere between 1.5 and 3), P is the pressure drop across the ceiling in pascals and n is the flow exponent (0.65 is a good estimate). ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 21 17:19:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA17389 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:19:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA03432 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:19:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19117; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:09:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA18662 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin40.mail.aol.com (mrin40.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18657 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:09:42 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin40.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id RAA11565; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:13:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:13:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971121171306_1793603348@mrin40.mail.aol.com> To: obrien@hevanet.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: co2 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 557 In a message dated 11/21/97 1:58:52 AM, you wrote: <> Thanks for the specifics Mike. I have been fascinated for a long time by the impact people have on the landscape in general and forests in particular. Here's a few specifics from my collection: 1) In a journal of an early New England traveller, called I believe "New Canaan Parish", there are remarkably clear descriptions of native folks managing the eastern forest for mast production (chestnuts and oaks primarily) by burning the understory. The journal reports huge trees 100 feet or so apart with clear sight between them. The reason you could run through the forest without breaking a twig was that there weren't any twigs. All burned up. The heavy nut production supplied humans and also supported populations of bear and deer. 2) All the northeastern states except New York and Maine were 96% deforested by the late 1890's (about the same time the last moose, elk, cougar, and wolf were blasted out of these same states - with amazing hindsight, New Hampshire extended the protection of a hunting season to these animals three years after the last ones were shot). Fire wood for home and industry, construction lumber, and clearing to make small farms appear to be the major causes. 3) In my lifetime, a large number of small farms have gone out of business. The amount of forested land in the northeastern states has grown considerably. The new forest is substantially different from the old one. After the blight there are essentially no chestnuts that live long enough to bear nuts, the beech trees are substantially reduced by a bark beetle-fungi combinationand many of the maples are having trouble with a virus that disrupts water and nutrient uptake. There's an outbreak of a chinese beetle that attacks maples directly on Long Island. All of these ailments are caused by creatures who've hitch-hiked here with footloose people. I'm pretty sure there's no clause about this in the MAI currently being negotiated. 4) Among Yankee house lore is the tale that many homes built in the middle 1700's have at least one plank in them which came from a tree greater than 20" in diameter. Trees of this size and greater being the sole property of the Crown to provide masts for His Majesty's fleet. Maybe that's the origin of "Live Free and Die" the New Hampshire State moto. 5) I recently read an article in Scientific American which reports a study of Easter Island. Easter Island is a mystery island because it has no trees, a small number of species and artifacts which appear to have been made by a sophisticated society with a much larger population than the ecosystem could support. Examination of the geologic record of spores, pollen, seeds and fossil remains reveals a once thriving forest with a huge diversity of species. It appears the forest was cut down over a long time period. I guess it is a form of ecological succession - one species preparing an ecosystem that supports other species, but not it's own offspring. Kinda like poplars, cherries, pines do for maple, birch and beech here in the northeast. I have no doubt that the natives lived in close communion with the island for many generations. 6) On a more local level, in the early 1950's, the Kuchler family orchard in Heuvalton, New York had a crop of apples which cost them about half a dollar a bushel to produce. The market set the price at about half that. After three generations of tending the orchard successfully, the banks forclosed. The property was sold. Today there's a couple of hundred '50's style ranch houses on the site. Someday we're gonna want those apple trees a lot more than ranch houses. I bet you're absolutely right. It's going to be a lot harder for us to put trees back than remove them. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 21 18:39:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA18951 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:39:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA23438 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:38:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21920; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:34:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:30:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA21634 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:30:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin51.mail.aol.com (mrin51.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.161]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21628 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:30:02 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin51.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id SAA23904; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:33:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:33:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971121183328_-87756154@mrin51.mail.aol.com> To: msheffer@cyberia.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Drop Ceilings Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 558 I heard a concern voiced in the last couple days by a pretty progressive architect that insulating above a drop ceiling will risk condensation under the roof deck. As people answer your question, I'm curious about comments on condensation risk as well. Ian Ian Shapiro Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX IMSHAPIRO@AOL.COM "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 21 19:50:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA20128 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:50:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA10404 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:50:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24442; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:46:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:42:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA24179 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24173 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:41:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.57] (iplink1.crocker.com [205.246.4.1]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id TAA25518 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:48:00 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:48:12 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Vestfrost refrigerator Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 559 From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" >James: Both I and Marc Rosenbaum live with a Vestfrost fridge..... Jorg, either you or Marc must have incredibly long arms .. or maybe both of you do? Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 21 20:41:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA21009 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:41:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA23328 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:41:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA26018; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:37:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:33:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA25740 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:32:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA25736 for ; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 20:32:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA14402; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:37:48 -0800 Message-ID: <347635FD.B82B8D1E@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:31:41 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, pvisser@img.net Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: recycler X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 560 I agree the big feature about the GFX is that it works for its application and cost can be rationalized within a reasonable payback and its easy to integrate into a conventional system - what we need is a new concept of a whole house system for drain and venting as you only have to consider the energy cost of heating the water to begin with to appreciate the potential for conservation. The system of extraction can be as simple or as complex as the variety in heating/air systems but it needs to be available as a plug in component similar to the GFX. I think the basic thought here is to begin with the concept of recovering energy from all aspects of usage not just single applications, i.e. air, water. If we integrate the applications I think we have a better handle on the technology that is needed. I don't want to buy a heat pump that is dedicated to exhaust air to water conversion and then have to find and install another piece of technology that extracts heat from waste water. I must admit I am getting a little frustrated with the marketplace that is throwing amazingly efficient and expensive bits of technology at us that could be multiple purpose in their application. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. John Straube wrote: > The GFX device is creating such a stir, not because it is the > most efficient, but because it is simple and affordable. This means > many > people can use it and it will pay for itself fairly quickly. > > There have been many attempts to use heat recovery in buildings. > Several > of Canada's Advanced houses used it. THe Brampton house had a heat > pump > thatextracted heat from exhaust air and all exhaust water to heat hot > water. > > Your holding ideas are what I think are the more practical/affordable > for > most homes now. The coil of copper must be long enough if you hope to > get > the most heat out of the waste water. Also, the big practical problem > > with a holding tank is that it must be hygenically sealed and not > cause > clogged sewer lines. To prevent summertime heat gain, I'd insulate > the > tank. > > Is this sort of what M Rosenbaum meant by a batch reclaimer? > > I also think your 100 gallon size is about right, but for $ reasons I > think a discarded hot water tank with 4" drain lines punched in would > work > well (it is already insulated). Since the tank will not be under > pressure, it is not difficult to seal the new drain pipe entrance > holes or > the cold water heat exchanger holes. The inefficiency with this system > is > heat losses from the tank to the interior while we wait for someone to > > use hot water. > > -------------- > -------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube > Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group > Bldg. E3 Room 2111D Webpage > http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg > UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 > Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 > x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x- > -x-x-x-x > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 22 04:16:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA28199 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 04:16:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA27149 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 04:16:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA05846; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 04:12:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 22 Nov 1997 04:08:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA05589 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 04:07:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (root@hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.142]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA05585 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 04:07:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from dialin006.csrv.uidaho.edu (dialin006.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.16]) by hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu with SMTP (8.7.6/8.7.1) id BAA21650 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 01:11:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by dialin006.csrv.uidaho.edu with Microsoft Mail id <01BCF6E4.96127660@dialin006.csrv.uidaho.edu>; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 01:18:49 -0800 Message-ID: <01BCF6E4.96127660@dialin006.csrv.uidaho.edu> From: "Scott R. Moses" To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE:UC Berkeley Vital Signs Case Study Review Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 01:18:44 -0800 X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 561 I am looking for some reviews on a case study we (University of Idaho students) did for UC Berkeley on Earth Sheltered Residences. Under the Building Vital Signs program, we looked at: * How does the building's earth-shelter features perform during the summer, and likewise in the winter? * Does the skylight generate a "chimney effect" causing heat loss in the winter? * How do the as-built conditions of the sod-roof handle the severe weather conditions of the site? * Does the incorporation of the natural daylighting create a comfortable interior environment? * Is the residence functional in relation to the needs of the homeowners? Internet Location: http://www.aa.uidaho.edu/bldgvital/Gund-Ream.htm Scott R. Moses Univ. of Idaho Dept. Art & Arch begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(C$)`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`P $```$````0`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````30`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````&=R965N8G5I;&1I;F= 8W)E``,P`0```!@```!G`' ``0```"T```!213I50R!"97)K96QE>2!6:71A;"!3:6=N`!X,`0````4```!33510`````!X`'PP!````% ```&UO M?0:T`H "D0CF.PEO,/4?#V4.,#4@.B%1(0\B&?\@)")" M(*\D?R0]([\A[R _^1!@,C@J"BLA*M\KZ2 D?RP2*G\N3RX-+8\KOR^$.3\. M4#+4-#$L4S0P`H)S=-1Y; >0: G@= ``$U"A`_!D8W1L"K%<-H@P861J=36@ M!1!G:'<%0A8R# %C"< VD ,P<_AN97@7, >P!; `P )S8G,`4'-B,A10-9!A MZ1/P7&L)X' +D#9O-M/7"& VP N 9370=CV0`4!_-\L,,#B4+# [< 2@"X!G MTRPA.19B81<09 (@.=#/.78V`#? /\$@,35C#E#_.L\[WSSO`%$^+ "@.)Y MK_]!MC54#\!"OT//1-\.4#X?MT<_2$]!XS,"@A,08SJ0)T_1-\!!X'1I/< @ M1%$!$&%U; 5 4 K 8<$)P&%P:"!&`B$Z5-$I<&9I+0^0. % /6#75&-+/S;3 M8@L@<@E05H*S%J!6@G-]^T$1O_&-U!X ", 704S!1 M!G;4QU'E#& )4&-F,G_848'82'EP!)!KH6L>,Q,0?VN@-: !D370``"%7Y]O/Z!_H8^3U!0PI3"DX#$T_Q30HY^DKZ6_IL^GWZCOJ?]_JP^L'ZTO MKC^O3[!?L64S]UUPL^!*0#*R7[-OM'^UC_^VG[>ON+^YS[K?N^^\_[X//[\? MD\5YT!0PP.#"P#0X_848;V8A.3$7((7(T*:Q7OO06P6@=0'T"?&!\ MH'6!_0& ;EQ@`& )\%'0@3 "`7\Z$&*"TD#CL36PA) .4';Y")!W:\AQ;W#E M(@3P!T#W$& 4, J@9W520;+FA0(0'F\%0A#20%SJYD7K`, #$"Y/H'3+=PYS!O`!]KL.S@?%]];W[]>TD@N^FAQC!OY6%"$./Q(.J0M\ZA'R#E MPR!/L!@P(.80@QQ1P7!U9'D@=QQ@?"A5$;!F(E'P&N#JH"!@261A:&\:DX%Q M-64?#F(%PP3> 1(/0@<.ED M+!KR&'(?85S@_UO@(&7Y8\EB%$C+@W])QC#,8V@64,N19&(G8^U0GFCJ4"=P MRY#LX"=B9T#_S7$4%^ A=#!@.P0[X#4<_[!_S^@ MY\#\LLN1$1_,T@JT!T0;^OJ`"&38B'U)QG@0< >L?XM MY#!KT,IP'S$8X$' &K#_&8 C$3^0X_(=$#800?(AHNW*<'.!4,Z@X$@,[5S:_9Y:Z!-\F$< M`$D3;V0MZG ;\?WY(61KX$D$9A(Y437A[;'ORG!=WQJ!@M!E3=].[T___U$/ M4A]3+U0_54]67RX7^N+_6#]93UI?,A/30$?_(9/M$/G4(')PY ![D%Y!7H;. M@.LV`2*A9,IP84ET(C(0T/9XRX`89IAFE!U ML !I`&2:89D0;YI!7F6;`9K0F;"8T&R;`6=\`'::X9DPFG"<4)FP1\6:P6Z; M`2T`4INAFG#^;9I!F1*><)=@,A"/DB(0=QN07;'*@&,7;!F?C),,)&_ MDL^3VY\R(&Q3[]0@P= ?@" P3>J Z@`@US\;8" P&_:*WXOOC/Y$991P=" P M08+0(":JH=]Z4*<_J$^,_ZME?9=AKS ```,`$! ``````P`1$ `````#`( 0 M_____T `!S" \`4 `"#" \`0L``( (( 8``````, ````` M``!&``````.%`````````P`$@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````4H4``+<- M```>``6 "" &``````# ````````1@````!4A0```0````0````X+C ``P`& M@ @@!@``````P ```````$8``````84````````+``^ "" &``````# ```` M````1@`````.A0````````,`$( (( 8``````, ```````!&`````!"%```` M`````P`1@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````$84````````#`!2 "" &```` M``# ````````1@`````8A0```````!X`)( (( 8``````, ```````!&```` M`#:%```!`````0`````````>`"6 "" &``````# ````````1@`````WA0`` M`0````$`````````'@`F@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````.(4```$````! A`````````!X`/0`!````! ```%)%.@`#``TT_3<``"G. ` end ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 22 08:32:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA01396 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:32:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA04708 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:32:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08473; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:27:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:23:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA08229 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:23:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08225 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:23:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78770; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 06:25:58 -0700 Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 06:25:57 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: John Straube , greenbuilding@crest.org, pvisser@img.net Subject: GBlist: exhaust air to water Heat Pump In-Reply-To: <347635FD.B82B8D1E@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 562 John & Prayan, anyone:I would like to know where to get the particulars on the above, based on your notes of below. If we are talking about HRVs that is a different matter. One has heat pipes, but I am not familiar with the heat pump version.Thanks. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, John Salmen wrote: a heat pump that is dedicated to exhaust air to water > conversion AND > > pump > > thatextracted heat from exhaust air and all exhaust water to heat hot > > water. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 22 09:01:05 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA01893 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:01:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA09071 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:00:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09464; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:56:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:52:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA08944 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:52:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08927; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:52:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA124476; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 06:55:21 -0700 Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 06:55:20 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: MHillLEDA@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: average daily electrical consumption outside NA In-Reply-To: <971121155441_307085787@mrin58.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 563 Matthew: Thank you for the attachment which is starting to help. It was interesting that the "eco house" was using 7.4 kWh/day compared with 3.9 kWh/day for the lowest low energy houses. Therefore it seems that 4 kWh is an attainable figure for us to aspire to. The reason I am looking for the figures in the UK, Euope and Japan is that their average electrical consumption for non-heating purposes would help define what an energy conserving family in Canada should be able to achieve, thus serving the purposes for verifying the long method of load calculations. Therefore what is a realistic average electrical consumption for an energy saving family in North America using a photovoltaic system? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Fr:[oi, 21 Nov 1997 MHillLEDA@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 19/11/97 , you write: > > << I would like to know from our international members what the average UK, > European and Japanese Kwh/day are. This should not include electrical > heating, > just lights, appliances, etc. >> > > I don't know of any average figures of the type you want. It's interesting > that most "low energy " houses focus on heating rather than lights and > appliances. A recent review of UK low energy houses had a few where figures > were available, and ranged from 12 - 40 kWh/m2 per year. For a typical UK > house of 120m2 , that works out at between 3.9 and 13KWh/day. > One 3-bed eco-house I know that has a 4kWpeak photo-voltaic roof uses 7.4kWh > /day and generates a little more electricity over the year than it uses. > > Total CO2 emissions for the UK per person are around 10 tonnes. (It's 16 > tonnes for the USA - maybe you have a figure for Canada). > > Matthew Hill > Leeds Environmental Design Associates > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 22 12:31:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA05731 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:31:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA23658 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:30:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13847; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:26:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:21:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13553 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:21:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13546 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:21:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA24589; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:26:32 -0800 Message-ID: <34771455.2B4B5622@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:20:21 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: exhaust air to water Heat Pump X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 564 There is one north american manuf. I know of: Dec International they make a EAHP called Therma-Stor http://www.thermastor.com/hpwh.html also a product review at http://www.oikos.com/esb/41/eahpstudy.html. What I like about the product is that its usage or effectiveness is linked to periods of high water usage meaning periods of excess moisture. I was also looking for a product that did not treat incoming air but could effectively conserve heat from all exhaust air. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > John & Prayan, anyone:I would like to know where to get the > particulars on the > above, based on your notes of below. If we are talking about HRVs that > is > a different matter. One has heat pipes, but I am not familiar with the > > heat pump version.Thanks. > _________________________________________________________ > Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office > buildings > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and > office > Web Site [under construction]: > http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > _____________________________________________________ > > On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, John Salmen wrote: > > a heat pump that is dedicated to exhaust air to water > > conversion > > AND > > > > pump > > > thatextracted heat from exhaust air and all exhaust water to heat > hot > > > water. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 22 12:35:05 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA05888 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:35:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA24683 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:34:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14284; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:30:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:26:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13834 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:26:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13827 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:26:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.18] (blf18.acadia.net [205.217.217.18]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA04374 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:30:26 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:28:47 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: A Forest Journey Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 565 The author of A Forest Journey is Ken Perelman, who also co-authored A Golden Thread. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 22 12:39:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06026 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:39:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25570 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:38:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14561; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:34:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:30:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14273 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:30:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14265 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:30:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.18] (blf18.acadia.net [205.217.217.18]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA04596 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:34:31 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:32:51 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Vestfrost Refrigerators Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 566 In Northern New England, Vestfrost refrigerators are available through The Green Store in Belfast, Maine, which is a wonderful family-run business specializing in sustainable-living products. One caveat about Vestfrosts: the only reason we don't own one is because my wife, who is 4 feet 11 inches tall, can't reach the top shelf of a Vestfrost, which is 6 feet, 5 inches tall (on a base 2 feet square). This also presents difficulties using them in kitchens with existing above-refrigerator cabinets. - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 22 18:01:41 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA12182 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:01:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA16162 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 18:01:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22498; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:57:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:52:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA22232 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:52:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA22227 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 17:52:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.228] (1Cust228.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.228]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA22823 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:56:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711222256.OAA22823@germany.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: exhaust air to water Heat Pump Date: Sat, 22 Nov 97 15:00:02 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan cc: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 567 John/Jorg I've been living with the EnviroVent version of Thermastor's exhaust air heat pump for five years now. It's been very reliable, but it's not monitored so I can't speak to efficiency. The article on Oikos that John refers to below reports on a BPA study with performance details. My version includes a space heating/cooling feature. In my tight, well-insulated house and in this mild Pacific NW climate, the 1/2 ton of heating will satisfy the load for all but the 2 or 3 coldest months. And the cooling is a great luxury on the 3 to 5 days that we need cooling at all. Overall my experience has been positive. Cost? Back then the equipment cost $1800 (which includes the water tank) and I put in another $600 - 700 for ducts, fittings, mounting, etc. BPA paid an incentive of $1500 (I think). Because the unit replaces the water heater, plus three bath fans with their ducts and installation, I figure the incremental cost was only a few hundred dollars. For that I get superior ventilation and efficient water heating. Works for me. Bruce >There is one north american manuf. I know of: Dec International they >make a EAHP called Therma-Stor http://www.thermastor.com/hpwh.html >also a product review at http://www.oikos.com/esb/41/eahpstudy.html. >What I like about the product is that its usage or effectiveness is >linked to periods of high water usage meaning periods of excess >moisture. I was also looking for a product that did not treat incoming >air but could effectively conserve heat from all exhaust air. > >John Salmen >TERRAIN E.D.S. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 23 18:30:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA06998 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:30:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA29840 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:30:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA24977; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:25:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:19:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24556 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:19:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin41.mail.aol.com (mrin41.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.151]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24552 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:19:42 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin41.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id SAA28183 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:23:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:23:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971123182309_-971676709@mrin41.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: GBList: Wraps & Rainscreens Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 568 Greetings: Apparanetly Joe Lstiburek's recent pronouncements on drainage plains have stirred up lots of other thoughts besides my own. We did several "drainage planed" jobs recently. (is that proper grammar?) One 40 ft. high wall of vertical T & G cedar. I knew that would leak and actually designed that project before hearing Joe's comments. Detail: Tyvek, taped with horizontal 2-1/2" cedar battens 16" o.c. Each batten had a 45 degree sloped top edge toward the exterior and 1" slots routed into the face for drainage about every 12". The theory was to encourage the water to run down the back face of the siding rather than the tyvek. Lot's of work just prepping the battens plus lots of cedar. The cedar association sales rep called my attention to potential for mold, fungus and other lovelies in the south facing cavity space: warm dark and moist. All we need to do is add a nice growing medium like spf furring and we have exotic mushroom farms. Second job was clapboard furred out over taped tyvek with 2" strips of pressure treated (boo hiss)1/2' plywood nailed over the studs. Screens at the bottom of water board, vents into soffit on bearing wall and into attic on gables. Much easier details. On all our jobs we've been using ice and weather shield behind windows, but as mentioned by others, all these interfaces create brain cramps even on a simple job. Finally, at the customers requests, we built two vinyl sided homes. Very simple and elegant (though ugly and gross) rain screen system using standard vinyl installation details. On our current job using cedar shingle siding, I'm taking a break, recognizing that my own home and most of the jobs built in New England for the past ten years have done fairly well nailing shingles hard over tyvek. Wondering whether the problems being found are partially due to poor detailing and installation of shingles. I wonder whether cedar breather would really do the trick or whether the surfactant laden water would still quickly get to the tyvek. My sense is that the kind of detail we used on the vertical siding job would be the answer, but it is pretty expensive and cumbersome. It is pretty much the way the old guys did roofs though, which we have copied on our very few cedar roofs. My sense of this debate is that when all is said and done the need for drainage planes will be proven correct. Everyone in the field will be driven crazy trying to work out the details with wood siding. The codes will be changed to require drainage planes and Lstiburek will take his rightful and honorable place as the father of the vinyl siding revolution in North America. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 23 20:24:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA09587 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:24:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA25915 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:24:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA28966; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:20:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:16:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA28673 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:16:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28662 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA16997; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:20:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:19:59 EST From: John Straube Reply-To: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Insulation on drop ceilings To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199711220700.CAA03536@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 569 > Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:20:03 -0500 > From: Marcus Sheffer > Subject: GBlist: Insulation and Drop Ceilings > > In my opinion placing insulation directly on top of a drop ceiling is > worthless. The money would be better spent on continuing the wall > insulation up to the roof deck. Insulating a drop ceiling is an attempt to > reduce the amount of volume of air that needs to be conditioned, my > contention is that the volume of air above the drop celing will have about > the same temperature whether there is insulation above the drop celing or > not. Intuatively this rings true to me but I am having a hard time > convincing the designers. My research to date has turned up one article in > ASHRAE Journal from 1979 on the subject. Does anyone know of any > reasearch, articles or information in this area? I do not need to reference my research papers to tell you it is maddness to place fibreglass batts over a drop ceiling in the situation you describe. Forget the heat losses through poor installation and air leakage, there is a very high probability of severe condensation problems becuase of the incredible leaky nature of the drop ceiling. Any student who proposed such a solution would be promptly failed in my classes! To repeat one of the first Books of Canadian Building Science Gospel "where is the AIR BARRIER?!" You are creating a new building envelope and need to design it as one! It may make some sense to put in a drop ceiling at 9' instead of using the 20 ' space (consider th probelms of inter office privacy, air supply, etc) but you must use drywall, with well sealed joints (Dont try to use poly vapour barrier, it probably wont work) . Air that leaks through (and hot air rises) will contact the cold, uninsulated block walls and condense. If there is little moisture production, the ceiling is not leaky and/or the space above the ceiling is a large volume of well-vented air, it might work. The better building is to make a drywall suspended ceiling and insulate on top. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group Bldg. E3 Room 2111D Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 23 22:35:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA11824 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:35:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA26345 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:35:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03297; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:30:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:26:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA02972 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:25:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin53.mail.aol.com (mrin53.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.163]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02968 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:25:54 -0500 (EST) From: RodLambert@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin53.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA28134 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:29:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:29:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971123222922_1549923791@mrin53.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Drop Ceilings Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 570 I'm not sure I understand the the thinking on this one. Surely the innately leaky drop ceiling allows warm moist air to penetrate to the now cold space (because of the insulation) where it will condense on any cold suface it can find? Rod Lambert Ecovillage at Ithaca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 23 23:12:25 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA12668 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:12:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA05255 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:12:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04480; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:08:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:04:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA04166 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:03:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from lithium.dowco.com (lithium.dowco.com [207.23.88.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA04162 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:03:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from cree (dialup-071.as3.van.Dowco.COM [207.23.88.71]) by lithium.dowco.com (8.8.7/8.8.7/CF.6) with SMTP id UAA21079 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:07:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Cree Industries" To: "GREEN GREEN" Subject: GBlist: re: Hemp Insulation ? Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:09:07 -0800 Message-ID: <01bcf88e$b5857c80$475817cf@cree> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 571 From; cree@dowco.com (john Olsen) cut and paste from re :Mon ,16 Jun 1997 be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) Is (legal) hemp grown for any other purpose than its fibre ? Unlike cereal grains from which straw is derived, I don't think that the land devoted to growing (legal) hemp produces any (legal) food (other than those hemp seed ball treats). Then again, I know nothing about (legal)hemp. Hopefully, if legislation passes in January 1998, Canada will once again allow the growing of Industrial Hemp. It has over 24,000 uses, and is used in all major industries, e.g., Tea Bag (bags), coffee filters, paper, building insulation, ropes, margarines, clothing, ethanol production,beer, wine, seat covers, oil filters, bio diesel. It truly is a Green product.Just look on the net for the number of businesses ( and Countries) getting involved in this NON drug product. john Olsen ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 23 23:58:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA14304 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:58:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA16080 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:58:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA05626; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:52:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:48:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA05260 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:47:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from sparticus.eurekanet.com (root@sparticus.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05250 for ; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:47:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (port-01-24.athens.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.124]) by sparticus.eurekanet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA14400; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:52:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711240652.BAA14400@sparticus.eurekanet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Catherine M. Muller" Organization: National Center for Appropriate Technology To: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 04:02:30 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Drop Ceilings Reply-to: cmuller@ncat.org CC: msheffer@cyberia.com, greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <971121183328_-87756154@mrin51.mail.aol.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 572 In this case, the roof deck should be warmed by the existing insulation, so there shouldn't be much of a risk of condensation there. If the space were cold and surfaces were below dewpoint, though, there could be a problem, since the drop ceiling doesn't do much to stop moist building air from circulating into the space above it. On the otherhand, this air would serve to warm the space, and keep the surfaces relatively warm. The best strategy is to insulate the underside of the roof deck and the walls above the drop to avoid all of this, I would think. > From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com > Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:33:28 -0500 (EST) > To: msheffer@cyberia.com, greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: Drop Ceilings > I heard a concern voiced in the last couple days by a pretty progressive > architect that insulating above a drop ceiling will risk condensation under > the roof deck. As people answer your question, I'm curious about comments on > condensation risk as well. > > Ian > > > > Ian Shapiro > Taitem Engineering > 963 Comfort Road > Spencer, NY 14883 > 607 277 1118 > 607 277 2119 FAX > IMSHAPIRO@AOL.COM > "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > Catherine M. Muller Project Coordinator, Multi-family Services National Center for Appropriate Technology 16 Spring Street, Glouster, Ohio 45732 cmuller@ncat.org 614/767-9000 (phone); 614/767-9033 (fax) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 01:07:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA16420 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:07:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA01037 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:07:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA07257; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:03:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:59:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA06946 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:59:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from neptune.olympus (neptune.imagen.net [204.244.138.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA06940 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:58:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ss4.imagen.net by neptune.olympus with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id XJKDMHSS; Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:03:10 -0800 X-Sender: elizwhite@mail.imagen.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:01:51 -0800 To: "Green Building" From: elizwhite@saltspring.com (Elizabeth White) Subject: Re: GBlist: exhaust air to water Heat Pump Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 573 Jorg: I also lived with an Envirovent Thermastor exhaust air DHW heat pump with space heating/cooling for about five years (Ontario). No monitored data but reliable performance, although I had to utilize the back up coils to meet DHW demands (5 adults, 2 children; this would not be a problem for smaller households). I also had some problems with the heat pump cutting out in airconditioning mode which never did get figured out, but which may have been specific to the installation. The equipment has limitations because of the difficulty in matching loads. Ventilation is (or should be) continuous but DHW, space heating and cooling are not. Unless airconditioning demands coincide with hot water demands, which they rarely do in my experience, you wind up dumping hot water. When DHW and space heating demands coincide, DHW governs. Larger thermal storage capacity might be the answer. We had similar challenges with the Brampton Advanced House, where we used Greg Allen's prototype integrated mechanical system, the Solmate, and watered the lawn in summer with hot water. The Solmate used an ice water storage tank to achieve greater thermal storage. Another good idea never commercialised. No answers here, and it depends what you're trying to do of course, but it seems to me that solar DHW should be a given. In which case, is a DHW heat pump ventilator a good fit for supplementary winter use, or is a conventional HRV more appropriate? Elizabeth __________________ Elizabeth White, Sustainable Housing Solutions 171 Vesuvius Bay Road, Saltspring Island, B.C. V8K 1K3 voice: (250) 537-2616 fax:(250) 537-2681 email: elizwhite@saltspring.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 08:41:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA27329 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:41:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA17571 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:40:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15742; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:31:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15362 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:31:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from bretweir.total.net (bretweir.total.net [205.236.175.106]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15358 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:31:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from 205.236.84.43 (ppp-annex-0233.tor.total.net [205.236.84.43]) by bretweir.total.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA00582 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:35:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34799177.5AEE@total.net> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:38:48 -0500 From: nancy lugsdin Organization: heartland enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-MACOS8 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: perlin Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 574 according to Amazon Books, the author of Forest Journey: The Role of Wood in the Development of Civilization, is John Perlin. It was pub. by Harvard University Press, in 1991. Paperback is available thru Amazon for $13.56....(this is not a plug)... BTW, how does one get off this version of the list and onto the digest version?..... Nancy Lugsdin Toronto ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 08:44:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA27409 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:44:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA18236 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:43:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15972; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:39:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:35:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15622 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:35:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15616 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:35:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA86010; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:37:57 -0700 Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 06:37:56 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Cree Industries Cc: GREEN GREEN Subject: GBlist: Source of Hemp Insulation/biodiesel? In-Reply-To: <01bcf88e$b5857c80$475817cf@cree> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 575 Does anyone know who manufactures the above? Is anyone using hemp for biodiesel? Any contacts would be appreciated. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Cree Industries wrote: > allow the growing of Industrial Hemp. > It has over 24,000 uses, and is used in all major industries, e.g., > Tea Bag (bags), coffee filters, paper, building insulation, ropes, > filters, bio diesel. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 09:18:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA28088 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:18:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA26226 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:18:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17366; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:14:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:09:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA16951 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16937; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:09:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA127120; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:12:01 -0700 Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:12:01 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Elizabeth White Cc: Green Building , John Straube , Bryan Fofonoff , ee-building@crest.org, Jeff Krehmer , Cam McNeil , Glenn Nelson Subject: Re: GBlist: exhaust air to water Heat Pump In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 576 Elizabeth/John and US listserver members: Does anyone have an e-mail contact for DEC, the company that I think makes the above. Which issue of EBN had the article on the above? Either or both a 7" dia. exhaust duct for the HRV (@ say 100CFM for 6 months) or the 4" stack vent from the 25 CFM fan from the compost toilet 24 hours day, 365 days/year, may be a good source for the above? Perhaps it may be possible to connect 2 sources to one heatpump? If too little heat was left in the waste stream, could ice build-up inside the exhaust duct/stack vent to actually block it? Further to the discussion below, any excess heat could easily be accommodated in the mass of our 65 Ton concrete slab from fall through spring.Comments welcomed. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Elizabeth White wrote: > Jorg: > > I also lived with an Envirovent Thermastor exhaust air DHW heat pump with > space heating/cooling for about five years (Ontario). No monitored data but > reliable performance, although I had to utilize the back up coils to meet > DHW demands (5 adults, 2 children; this would not be a problem for smaller > households). > > The equipment has limitations because of the difficulty in matching loads. > Ventilation is (or should be) continuous but DHW, space heating and cooling > are not. Unless airconditioning demands coincide with hot water demands, > which they rarely do in my experience, you wind up dumping hot water. When > DHW and space heating demands coincide, DHW governs. Larger thermal storage > capacity might be the answer. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 10:06:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA29251 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:06:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA07633 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:05:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19399; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:01:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:57:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19020 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:57:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19015 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:57:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52772; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:00:08 -0700 Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:00:08 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: Gordon Howell , wimdg@agoranet.be Subject: GBlist: average electrical consumption in Europe Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 577 Here is a very interesting response to the above.In our area it is 9,000-10,000 kWh/year for the average 2.5 person family. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:50:38 +0100 From: Wim De Groote To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Subject: Re: EEBA-L: stack vent heat-exchanger At 06:31 19/11/97 -0700, you wrote: >What is the average electrical energy consumption per person or >household for residential units in Europe ? For a 3-persons family with non-electracal heating, the average is about 3.000 kWh electricity per year Best regards, "Willem" Wim > >_________________________________________________________ >Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect >- in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. >- 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors >- college campus and office tower recofit under construction >- living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office >ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 >Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm >e-mail: >______________________________________________________ >On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Wim De Groote wrote: >> >> Why don't you take a subsciption to Environmental Building News (EBN) ? It >> would solve many of the problems/questions that you send to this group (like >> this one), and EBN is much better than any other journal I've seen so far >> here in Europe. >> >> Yours, >> >> W. De Groote >> E STER, Gent, Belgium >> Living in one of the 100 most energy-efficient houses in this part of >> Europe, with an annual power consumption of approx. 900 kWh per year (but >> still a long way to go to get this down, e.g. by replmacing the 15 years old >> fridge). >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >Energy Efficient Building list: sponsored >> >by the Energy Efficient Building Association (EEBA), a >> >non-profit educational organization >> >with the assistance of CREST and >> >Howard Associates # # # >> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> > >> > >> >> > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 10:54:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00199 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:54:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA19901 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:54:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22471; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:50:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:46:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21810 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:46:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21805 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:46:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dial-65-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.65]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA23050; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:49:59 -0500 Message-ID: <3479A220.41DD@together.net> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:49:52 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: Marcus Sheffer Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulation and Drop Ceilings References: <3.0.3.32.19971121152003.006993f4@cyberia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 578 Field Experinces with lay-in Fiberglass Ceiling Insulation If I were in a Design Development Meeting with an Architect who proposed the above, I would strongly advise against it. This is why: Several years ago I was retained to look into "drip" marks on a lay-in ceiling for a Hospital main-frame computer room in Upstate New York. The room had a conventional lay in ceiling with six inch fiberglass batts w/ brown paper vapor barrier laid directly above the ceiling. Above this was about 10 feet of open area, the original circa 1920 building shell. First, many have pointed out the thermal and vapor weakness, all excellent points. The real problem is maintenance. Moving the insulation to inspect ceiling conditions is a god awfull messy nightmare. I had fiberglass particulates all over me and all throughout this expensive computer room. The computer geek staff did not like me for creating an unavoidable mess. Maintenance people will, as I do, curse the shortsighted and lack of Architectural design experience because of the mess and irritation. What eventually happens is that people become so angry at this service impairment they simply toss all the insulation to one ceiling corner and never take the time and care to replace it. The heat transfer insulation barrier also becomes a maintenance barrier. This was the souce of condensate drip. I even detected condensation where the insulation had not been tampered with. Other design issues include: - Will a dry pipe sprinkler system be required due to freeze potential above the ceiling? Almost every year in Northern Vermont I have clients with ruptured frozen sprinkler piping when we approach our -20 F design conditions. - How will ducts be accessed for Test and Balance? - Will patents be in a "crisis" mode? In plain English, will they be in a state of mine to rampage and destroy any and everthing within he room, including easy to get to ceiling tiles? Something to ask about in the program. Another Hospital client in Burlington, Vermont installed radient heating ceilings above patient rooms in 1972. The radient ceiling included fiberglass batts avove the ceiling, except these were individually wrapped in plastic in 12 inch by 24 inch pieces. A few years ago I conducted a full field survey as part of a major renovation. Almost every batt was tossed into a corner area over the years. Some batts were piled so high I could not see at all what was above the ceiling. The maintenance staff has lived with this for over 25 years and are now ecstatic about planned renovations WITHOUT any above ceiling insulation OR radient panels blocking service access. Nothing takes the place of hands on field experience. This is a summary of my experinces. Hope it is helpful in preventing shortsighted designs which do not consider maintenance needs. Tom Anderson South Burlington, Vermont Marcus Sheffer wrote: > > I am consulting with a mental helath facility in Philadelphia who is > expanding their office and program space into a facility previously used > for light industrial purposes. The building is uninsulated block and flat > roof with 2.5 inches rigid insulation. The floor to roof deck dimension is > over 20 feet. They plan to stud out the walls and insulate them with > fiberglass batts (I recommended wet-spray cellulose). They also plan to > install a standard drop celing. Directly on top of the drop ceiling they > plan to install fiberglass batt insulation. I have recommended against > this for several reasons: 1) the ceiling plane is poruos in nature, 2) the > fiberglass batts are porous in nature, 3) there will be many areas where > there is no insulation (i.e. light fixtures), and 4) once anyone goes above > the ceiling for any reason the batts cannot be replaced (numerous times I > have seen batts laying all over the place above drop ceilings). > > In my opinion placing insulation directly on top of a drop ceiling is > worthless. The money would be better spent on continuing the wall > insulation up to the roof deck. Insulating a drop ceiling is an attempt to > reduce the amount of volume of air that needs to be conditioned, my > contention is that the volume of air above the drop celing will have about > the same temperature whether there is insulation above the drop celing or > not. Intuatively this rings true to me but I am having a hard time > convincing the designers. My research to date has turned up one article in > ASHRAE Journal from 1979 on the subject. Does anyone know of any > reasearch, articles or information in this area? > > ===================================================================== > Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services > Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 > 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 > Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com > ===================================================================== > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 10:55:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00225 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:55:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA20167 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:55:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22659; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:51:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:47:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21895 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:47:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21887 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:47:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA20447 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:50:56 -0500 Message-id: <1446520@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 24 Nov 97 10:56:13 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: exhaust air to water Heat Pump To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 579 The only time I used the DEC Envirovent was when I had a large Clivus that needed ventilation and I was worried about cross-contamination in a conventional air-to-air unit. I had simultaneous need for hot water and also some cooling/dehumidificatio in a small office equipment room (copier, fax, etc.) so this piece of equipment served all three uses and it felt sensible to use it. Otherwise, I tend to use solar DHW and a conventional heat recovery ventilator. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 11:05:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA00447 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:05:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA22530 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:05:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23734; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:01:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:57:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23230 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from m6.boston.juno.com (m6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.197]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23226 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:56:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from thomcelt@juno.com) by m6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KbA23992; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:59:45 EST To: RHDesign@aol.com Cc: SACHS@ghpc.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:32:01 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Re: emobodied energy Message-ID: <19971124.090118.3862.1.thomcelt@juno.com> References: <971121140741_-1709088169@mrin52.mail.aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-20 From: thomcelt@juno.com (Thomas P. Morrissey) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 580 >... Cole concludes a 75% reduction in the energy used to > operate a building must take place before the > embodied energy of materials and construction becomes meaningful." What is "meaningful" is a rather subjective assessment. I won't argue with the notion that the reduction in operating costs will have the greatest impact on energy used relative to energy used in building. I believe that all acts have meaning and whatever steps can be made are worthwhile. Of course we are only considering the quantity of energy consumed at this point. The quality of energy utilized and the resulting energy embodied in the building is another matter, though this is VERY subjective and something I find difficult to describe though I can feel it. Simply and sustainably, -- Tom Morrissey, thomcelt@juno.com USPS: 5569 N. County Rd 29, Loveland, CO 80538 Phone: 970/679-4265 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 11:13:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA00616 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:13:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA24572 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24618; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:09:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:05:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24089 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:04:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net (denmark-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24080 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:04:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.96] (1Cust96.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.96]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA22742 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:08:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711241608.IAA22742@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: exhaust air to water Heat Pump Date: Mon, 24 Nov 97 08:12:11 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan cc: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 581 Jorg >Does anyone have an e-mail contact >for DEC, the company that I think makes the above. You can reach their web site through a page on Oikos. Thermastor appears on the Featured Companies list. They should list an email address there. >Perhaps it may be possible to >connect 2 sources to one heatpump? The heat pump needs a minimun air flow while the compressor is running of about 120 cfm. In my system, there are four exhaust air pickups (three bathrooms and one in the kitchen away from the range). The exhaust can also be controlled by a timer. Heat recovery occurs only when the water tank (or the space heating thermostat in my system) calls for heat. So, heat recovery is disconnected from the need for ventilation. To heat water for our family of four, the compressor runs four to six hours a day. I also set the timer for specific times of day when ventilation is needed. So there are times when ventilation occurs without heat recovery and vice versa. >If too little heat was left in the waste >stream, could ice build-up inside the exhaust duct/stack vent to actually >block it? I don't know the exact temperature, but I would guess that the space from which the warm exhaust air is drawn needs to be in the mid to high 50s to prevent ice build up on the evaporator coils. Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 11:27:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA00888 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:27:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27807 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:26:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25835; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:18:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25112 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:17:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25108 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:17:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from eei.org by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: mail.eei.org [204.254.108.2]) id QQdrbl03215; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:21:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from WPDomain-Message_Server by eei.org with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:00:08 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:56:19 -0500 From: Harvey Sachs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: insulating dropped ceilings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 582 An avoided cost in avoiding insulation on dropped ceilings: If the insulation is instead above the ceiling and ductwork, there are two benefits in conventional practice: 1) Plenum returns instead of expensive insulated ducts for return. 2) may be able to avoid terminal duct insulation on the supply side, too. harvey sachs ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 11:29:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA00933 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:28:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28281 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26151; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:24:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:20:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25360 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:19:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711241619.LAA25360@solstice.crest.org> Subject: GBlist: Unsubscribe for the Holidays? Date: Mon, 24 Nov 97 08:24:22 -0000 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 583 Hello All If you plan to be out of town or just out of the greenbuilding loop for the holidays, please consider unsubscribing from the list. That way messages won't pile up in your email box. If your box reaches capacity, your email provider will bounce messages back to the list prompting us to unsubscribe for you. Doing this manually for dozens of people is not my idea of holiday cheer. So, please help out by unsubscribing before you check out and then resubscribing when you return. Here are instructions: To unsubscribe from your current email address, just send a message to "majordomo@crest.org". That's the email "To:" address. In the _body_ of the message, type "unsubscribe greenbuilding". That's all. (Please note that the address to post messages to the list is "greenbuilding@crest.org" which different from the address to unsubscribe.) If you're on the digest, the command is "unsubscribe greenbuilding-digest". You can get more complete instructions by sending a message to "greenbuilding-request@crest.org" There's no need to type anything in the body message. If you have any questions, please contact me by replying to this address "sullivan@oikos.com". Thanks and enjoy the season. Bruce S a moderator -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 12:21:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02240 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:21:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12794 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:21:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29194; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:17:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:12:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28768 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:12:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.vineyard.net (mail@ns2.vineyard.net [204.17.195.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28763 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:12:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mail.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA16755 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy3.vineyard.net(199.232.92.93) by mail.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma016741; Mon Nov 24 12:15:54 1997 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:54:34 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Electric cooking Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 584 Does anyone have any experience with fast acting electric ranges and/or cooktops? Does such a thing exist? We're looking for non-combustion cooking appliances that would satisfy cooks who are currently wedded to gas? Any intelligence would be appreciated. Thanks, John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 12:24:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02313 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:24:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA13680 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:24:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29521; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:20:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:15:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA29054 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:15:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from lithium.dowco.com (lithium.dowco.com [207.23.88.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29050 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:15:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cree (dialup-041.as1.van.Dowco.COM [207.23.88.41]) by lithium.dowco.com (8.8.7/8.8.7/CF.6) with SMTP id JAA29867; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:19:34 -0800 (PST) From: "Cree Industries" To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Cc: "GREEN GREEN" Subject: Fw: GBlist: Source of Hemp Insulation/biodiesel? Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:20:52 -0800 Message-ID: <01bcf8fd$50be62c0$295817cf@cree> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 585 Interesting article at http://hemp-cyberfarm.com/ presentation on Bio Diesel by >Agua Das, consultant Original Sources >Email: das@eagle-access.net >P O Box 7137 >Boulder, CO 80306 >USA (970) 225 8356 (24 hour order line) office: (303) 237 3579 > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jorg D. Ostrowski >To: Cree Industries >Cc: GREEN GREEN >Date: November 24, 1997 5:41 AM >Subject: GBlist: Source of Hemp Insulation/biodiesel? > > >>Does anyone know who manufactures the above? Is anyone using hemp for >biodiesel? >>Any contacts would be appreciated. >>_________________________________________________________ >>Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect >>- sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office >buildings >>- living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office >>Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm >>e-mail: >>_____________________________________________________ >>On Sun, 23 Nov 1997, Cree Industries wrote: >>> allow the growing of Industrial Hemp. >>> It has over 24,000 uses, and is used in all major industries, e.g., >>> Tea Bag (bags), coffee filters, paper, building insulation, ropes, >>> filters, bio diesel. >>> >> >>______________________________________________________________________ >>This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >>Environmental Building News and Oikos >>For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >>______________________________________________________________________ >> >> > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 12:36:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02555 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:36:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA17177 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:36:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00783; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:32:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:28:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00242 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:27:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00238 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:27:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dial-172-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.172]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA28668; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:31:58 -0500 Message-ID: <3479BA06.592B@together.net> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:31:50 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Harvey Sachs Subject: Re: GBlist: re: insulating dropped ceilings References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 586 A comment in reference to: "Plenum returns instead of expensive insulated ducts for return." One must be very careful using plenum returns in such a situation. Deletion of a return air duct for plenum return will impose a negative pressure in the above-ceiling space, potentially inducing infiltration above the ceiling. The occupied space will result in positive pressure. I mention this because I recently completed a troubleshooting study of a low rise building in downtown Boston. A plenum return was installed without adequate air pressure gradient analysis, creating beacuop comfort problems due to infiltration. Tom Anderson Harvey Sachs wrote: > > An avoided cost in avoiding insulation on dropped ceilings: > > If the insulation is instead above the ceiling and ductwork, > there are two benefits in conventional practice: > > 1) Plenum returns instead of expensive insulated ducts for > return. > > 2) may be able to avoid terminal duct insulation on the > supply side, too. > > harvey sachs > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 13:10:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA03267 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:10:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA26126 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:10:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02841; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:05:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:01:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02519 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:01:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02514 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:01:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.76] (pa-ppp40.hevanet.com [204.119.60.76]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00501 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:04:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:04:14 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: re: insulating dropped ceilings Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 587 Hi, all-- I wonder of using the open area above a dropped ceiling as a return plenum would be advisable? There have been many cases of roof and/or piping leaks dripping water onto the absorbent ceiling panels (usually made of fibrous material like cellulose), resulting in mold growth. The return air can then pick up and distribute the mold toxins. Best, Mike >An avoided cost in avoiding insulation on dropped ceilings: > >If the insulation is instead above the ceiling and ductwork, >there are two benefits in conventional practice: > >1) Plenum returns instead of expensive insulated ducts for >return. > >2) may be able to avoid terminal duct insulation on the >supply side, too. > >harvey sachs >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Portland General Electric Earth Smart program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 17:25:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA08980 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:25:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA01033 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:25:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14019; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:21:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:16:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13516 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:16:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from netspace.org (unknown@netspace.org [128.148.157.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13511 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:16:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (kurt@localhost) by netspace.org (8.8.7/8.8.2) with SMTP id RAA03370; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:19:51 -0500 Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:19:50 -0500 (EST) From: Kurt Teichert To: "John R. Abrams" cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Electric cooking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 588 Johnson and Wales University in Providence,RI has a test kitchen, "The Cafe" which includes many commercial electric appliances with relatively high efficiencies. In cooperation with New England Electric the performance of many of these appliances was monitored and analyzed. Call 1 800 342-5598 Contact me directly if you would like more details. Regards, Kurt Teichert Brown University 401-863-7837 kurt@netspace.org On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, John R. Abrams wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with fast acting electric ranges and/or > cooktops? Does such a thing exist? We're looking for non-combustion > cooking appliances that would satisfy cooks who are currently wedded to > gas? Any intelligence would be appreciated. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 18:15:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA10017 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:15:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA12492 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:15:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15989; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:10:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:05:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA15528 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:05:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15522 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-20.topher.net [208.199.183.226]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA08203 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:00:00 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199711242300.RAA08203@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: Subject: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:10:11 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 589 Our washing machine just died. Does anyone have any experience with any of the new horizontal axis machines? I'm specifically interested in the Staber 2000, but will gladly accept comments on any others. Thanks, Paul Westbrook pwest@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 19:30:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA11752 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:30:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01049 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:30:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19318; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:26:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:20:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA18507 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:20:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from UPIMSSMTPSYS03 (upimssmtpsys03.email.msn.com [207.68.152.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18467 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:19:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR03 - 207.68.143.159 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:20:46 -0800 Received: from GFX-CH - 153.35.26.229 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:18:00 -0800 From: "carmine vasile" To: Cc: "Mark Cook" , "Ken Ladd" , "Kevin McAuley" , "Jim Carney" , "Warren Hodgdon" , "Jim Vaughn" Subject: GBlist: heatpumps and other options Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:18:21 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 Message-ID: <09ddb00180019b7UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 590 NOTICE: THIS IS NOT A COMMERCIAL ADVERTISEMENT For Public Safety reasons, and to correct some fallacies, I feel obliged to respond to the GFX v. Batch arguments sent to the “GBlist”. To Store or Not to Store -- SAFELY? That Is the Question NOT GFX vs. Batch wastewater heat recovery, because storing wastewater in tanks containing coils filled with potable water can be hazardous to your health. THE PRICE OF SAFETY I know the argument, the potable water line is pressurized, so sewage can’t enter your coffee pot ..... unless there happens to be a fire down the block and a pumper-truck is sucking on a hydrant. NEGATIVE line pressure is then possible; as is ZERO pressure whenever the main water valve is closed. For these reasons, a double-wall-vented coil must be used to prevent cross-contamination, if a coil sitting in a tank full of sewage or stagnant water begins to leak. For IAPMO & UL and other approvals, GFX was mandated to have double-wall-vented construction, notwithstanding it is never flooded with wastewater — unless the sewer line becomes clogged. Double-wall-venting is not without cost --- 28.5 pounds of extra copper, as compared to 8.5 pounds in first GFX prototype that was evaluated by the U.S. Department of Energy’s Office of Energy Related Inventions [OERI] for performance ... not SAFETY. [See http://oikos.com/gfx/ for details and a link to a FAQ page] COMMON FALLACIES *** FALLACY #1: BATCH SYSTEMS SAVE MORE ENERGY The laws of thermodynamics say otherwise. When GFX was conceived, my 3 kids ranged from 7 to 15, I had an attractive wife, and all my hair. We then used about 80% of our hot water for showers, so I figured if I could catch 60-65% of that, my water heating bill would be cut in half. That’s what the GFX Model F-601 does. The Rocky Mountain Institute estimates 4-5 times as much cold water than hot water [@135ºF] is used by an average family, so a simple coil in a tank cannot match the performance of GFX if that much cold is mixed with hot --- even with 100% effectiveness and no fouling! If an active system is to be used with a wastewater storage tank, it’s better to use a fast-acting heat exchanger like GFX [which has about 0.2 gallons of storage per foot of drain], plus a pump, thermostatic controller & tank to store preheated water rather than waste water. [One engineer conceived a clever add-on to GFX that will catch energy from "batch" operations, and I believe he has filed for a patent.] *** FALLACY #2: GFX CAN’T WORK SO WELL, IT’S TOO SIMPLE Chris Meyer wrote the GBlist: “I tried the idea on my HVAC guy and he didn't think that the BTU's transferred during the brief time that the outgoing water was in contact with the incoming water was sufficient to make any difference.” Third party test results @ http://www.oikos.com/gfx/tests.html & http://www.oikos.com/gfx/hotel.html show otherwise. *** If You Want to Know Why, Read This, or Skip to The Next Section.*** GFX’s falling-film heat exchangers exhibit unusually high heat transfer coefficients; requiring 4 to 5 times less wetted-area than single- wall-unvented shell & tube heat exchangers commonly used for debris- laden wastewater. Now Chris’ “HVAC guy” would have no problem with a GFX system 20 to 25 feet tall, but believing the 5' Model F-601 can catch 10 kW [34,130 Btu/hr] from a shower drain with 95-degree drain water & 45-degree cold water @ 21/4 gpm is hard to believe. How about capturing 30 kW from 195-degree water; enough to hydronically heat a mansion? Even harder for some M.E.’s to believe is that a 15' GFX column can cool 101-degree wastewater down to 51 degrees with 42-degree water entering the bottom of the coil, thereby recycling 84% of the available heat. [The textile engineer who ran these tests himself didn’t believe his own measurements because his Energy Consultant said it couldn’t be done. The conventional shell & tube system he selected still misses energy worth $1,000/day @ $3.50/mmBtu, he said.] GFX’s heat transfer coefficient (U) ranges from 440 to 575 Btu/hr-ft^2-deg.-F, @ flow rates from 2 to 4.5 gpm, so very few M.E.’s or “HVAC guys” have a “feel” for designing with such a high U-value; just like most E.E.’s have no “feel” for designing superconducting magnets. Most “shoot from the hip” and turn “ a definite thumbs down”, like Chris’ “local resource”. GFX’s falling-film designs are like shell & tube heat exchangers turned inside-out, with the "tube" formed into a coil wrapped around the “shell”, so it can pass waste and debris without fouling. Unlike shell & tube designs, external welds eliminate cross-contamination fears in the event of a weld failure. *** FALLACY #4: GFX’S WALLS WILL FOUL NOT TRUE, for copper not only buys safety, it’s toxic to organic growth. Fast moving, soapy films falling @ 1.3 to 3.9 fps scour the DWV walls. *** FALLACY #5: IT’S ALWAYS BEST TO FEED PREHEATED WATER TO THE WATER HEATER. Once again, the laws of thermodynamics say otherwise. To understand this, consider running a shower for the 3 cases cited @: http://www.oikos.com/gfx/faq.html “The Obvious Case -- passing just the cold water feeding the water heater through the heat exchanger, where it's preheated by 50 degrees to 105 degrees as the 105 degrees wastewater is cooled by just 25 degrees because there is twice as much of it. This case corresponds to recycling 50% of the heat traveling down the drain. (In practice, the Model F-601 will cool the wastewater by about 20 degrees at 2.25 gpm while recycling about 40% of the waste heat. Lowering the water heater set-point will decrease the flow-imbalance and increase the efficiency.) The Equal-Flow Case -- passing water feeding both the water heater and cold side of the shower through the heat exchanger. Now the drain water will be cooled by 50 degrees and the feed water will be heated by 50 degrees because the flows are balanced. This case corresponds to 100% recycling efficiency. (In practice, the Model F-601 would cool the wastewater by about 30 degrees at 2.25 gpm while recycling about 60% of the waste heat.) The Confusing Case -- passing just the cold water feeding the shower through the heat exchanger and adjusting the mix to hold the shower temperature at 105 degrees . Now the cold water exiting the heat exchanger will be heated to 105 degrees , so to maintain a 105 degrees shower, the hot water flow must be zero. This case also corresponds to 100% recycling efficiency because the flows will be balanced after the mix has been adjusted. (In practice, the Model F-601 would preheat the cold water to about 89 degrees and cool the wastewater by about 26 degrees at 2.25 gpm while recycling about 52% of the waste heat. Raising the water heater set-point will decrease the flow- imbalance and increase the efficiency.)” There are many other considerations, but enough for now. ===================================================== Dr. Carmine Vasile, CEO Voice: 516-758-6271 WaterFilm Energy Inc. Fax: 516-758-0438 P.O. Box 48 Email: gfx-ch@msn.com Oakdale, NY 11769 ===================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 19:30:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA11762 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:30:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01078 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:30:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19370; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:26:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:22:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA18606 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA18581; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:21:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA131730; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:24:09 -0700 Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:24:08 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Paul Westbrook Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Brian Ward , Strawbale Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient In-Reply-To: <199711242300.RAA08203@mail.topher.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 591 Paul: We have used "Comb-o-Matic 2000" (also known as "Splendid 2000", Kariba Combination Washer/Dryer", and Equator Washer-Dryer (EZ1000) in the US),for 3 years and are very happy with its performance so far. The reasons we got it for our demonstration home were: 1) water conserving 2) energy efficient 3) space saving 4) handicapped accessible It will also serve as a virtual TV (for children) if there is not a real one since they love to watch those clothes tumble. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Paul Westbrook wrote: > > Our washing machine just died. Does anyone have any experience with any > of the new horizontal axis machines? I'm specifically interested in the > Staber 2000, but will gladly accept comments on any others. > > Thanks, > > Paul Westbrook > pwest@topher.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 22:28:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA15248 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:28:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA20876 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24788; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:24:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:20:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA24520 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:20:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin51.mail.aol.com (mrin51.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.161]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24515 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:20:03 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin51.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA17867; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:23:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:23:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971124222328_-690866044@mrin51.mail.aol.com> To: thomcelt@juno.com cc: SACHS@ghpc.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: GBIList: Re: embodied energy Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 592 Thom M. said... >>What is "meaningful" [in terms of the reduction of energy use] is a rather subjective assessment.<< As my fuzzy memory recalls, in his lecture Ray Cole said the typical commercial building used 100 times more operating energy over its life than the energy embodied in its materials. Can someone confirm that? Assuming I'm close, let's just say this standard building would use 10,000 units of energy over its life, and that 100 units would therefore be embodied in the materials. If you reduced the operating energy consumption to 25% of the standard (as the folks at the Rocky Mountain Institute have demonstrated can be done) you'd save 7500 units of energy. If you reduced the embodied energy by the same factor, you'd save 75 units. That 75 units would be a much bigger piece of the energy pie once you'd gotten the operating energy down to 2500 units. That said, yes, I agree, every little bit counts. Rob Harrison Seattle ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 24 22:50:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA15625 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:50:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA26219 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:49:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25586; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:45:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:41:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA25335 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:41:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from m6.boston.juno.com (m6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.197]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25329 for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:41:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from liemau@juno.com) by m6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id WeI23992; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:44:20 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:48:55 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Thanks to all Message-ID: <19971124.194856.6414.0.liemau@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,3-9 From: liemau@juno.com (maurizio antoninetti) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 593 I just want to take an opportunity to thank all the list members who have respond to my question regarding soil compactors. If it is of some interest, I'll keep the list posted on any results I'll face during the experience at the lagoon. Thanks again! Maurizio Antoninetti liemau@juno.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 07:58:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA25537 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:58:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA15933 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:57:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA05888; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:53:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:49:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA05634 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:49:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA05630 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:49:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA27717 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:53:10 -0500 Message-id: <1456149@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 25 Nov 97 07:58:27 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: re: insulating dropped ceilings To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 594 Plus everything damn thing which can ooze, leak, crawl, ordecompose inside the plenum return will, leaving the occupants to process it via their respiratory system. Just say no to plenum returns. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 08:13:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA25934 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:13:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA19081 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:13:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06315; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:09:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:05:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA06079 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:05:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06074 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:05:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA28353 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:08:58 -0500 Message-id: <1456284@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 25 Nov 97 08:14:16 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 595 Some friends have a Maytag Neptune. They're ecstatic (with a 6 year old and a new baby, too.) I used it myself when visiting and its most immediately notable feature was really quiet operation. This seems to be a hallmark of good appliances, it seems to me to indicate good design thinking in general. My Vestfrost refrigerator is so quiet that I'm never aware when it is actually running, and this in a very quiet house in a very quiet location. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 08:51:54 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA26856 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:51:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA27363 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:51:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07536; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:47:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:43:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07164 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:43:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from oak (caroldag@oak.liii.com [198.207.193.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07159 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:43:04 -0500 (EST) From: "Carol D'Agostino" Received: by oak (8.8.6/8.8.5) id NAA14040; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:47:01 GMT Message-Id: <199711251347.NAA14040@oak> Subject: GBlist: Canadian Area Code To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:46:59 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 596 Would some Canadian list member help me find the area code to Dexon Canada? All I have is their phone number: 272-0562. I understand they manufacture air filtering equipment. Thank you. Carol caroldag@liii.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 09:42:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA27888 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA09878 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:42:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09367; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:37:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:32:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09073 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:31:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09068 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:31:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from frazer (ip94.islip3.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.249.94]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA10992 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:35:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971125143244.00712b6c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:32:44 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: GBlist: Efficient Washing Machines & Vesfrost Fridge Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 597 The height of the Vesafrost may be a problem for some, but we have been pleased with its perfromance, although the width is more of a problem in ourhouse. It's too narrow to get a large bowl in for those big summer salads. Go Solar retails them here on Long Island. My family is after me to buy a dryer - they are tried of schlepping wet clothes to the sun space. The Equator comes in 10 lb & 13 lb sizes ($770 & $860), as well as venting & non-venting. Any experience out there with either ??? Since they are both 120V, is drying time increased or is it based upon getting the clothes quite dry in the washing process ??? thanks, -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 10:32:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA29129 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:32:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA22300 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:32:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11551; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:28:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:24:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11271 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:23:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11266 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:23:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA106842; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:25:40 -0700 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:25:40 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Carol D'Agostino" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Canadian Area Code In-Reply-To: <199711251347.NAA14040@oak> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 598 Carol: Call Henry Dumonceaux at area code 403.They make some very interesting air commercial-size cleaners/preheaters. I have recommended their use in some IAQ problems in a recent office tower recofit. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Carol D'Agostino wrote: > > Would some Canadian list member help me find the area code to Dexon > Canada? All I have is their phone number: 272-0562. > > I understand they manufacture air filtering equipment. > > Thank you. > > Carol > caroldag@liii.com > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 10:40:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA29402 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:40:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA24143 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:39:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12247; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:34:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:30:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11774 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:30:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11766 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:30:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA112304; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:33:16 -0700 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:33:16 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Frazer Dougherty Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Efficient Washing Machines & Vesfrost Fridge In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971125143244.00712b6c@pop.mindspring.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 599 Frazer: So far we are happy with our washer/dryer (Equator in the US). The drying mainly relies on high spin speed (700 RPM?). We then use the solar clothes dryer (line) outside or hang our clothes inside (in & near the upper bathroom) and let the HRV dehumidify the area & house. The 120 VAC is especially useful to simplify any PV system. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Frazer Dougherty wrote: > > The height of the Vesafrost may be a problem for some, but we have been > pleased with its perfromance, although the width is more of a problem in > ourhouse. It's too narrow to get a large bowl in for those big summer > salads. Go Solar retails them here on Long Island. > > My family is after me to buy a dryer - they are tried of schlepping wet > clothes to the sun space. The Equator comes in 10 lb & 13 lb sizes ($770 & > $860), as well as venting & non-venting. Any experience out there with > either ??? Since they are both 120V, is drying time increased or is it based > upon getting the clothes quite dry in the washing process ??? > > thanks, > -------------------------------------------------------- > Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com > North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) > website: http://www.home-performance.org > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 11:59:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA01701 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:59:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA15561 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:58:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16107; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:54:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:49:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA15598 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:49:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from teal.cr.usgs.gov (teal.cr.usgs.gov [159.189.176.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15593 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:49:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpgate.nbs.gov by teal.cr.usgs.gov (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA12242; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:53:26 -0700 Received: from ccMail by smtpgate.nbs.gov (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0011231F; Tue, 25 Nov 97 09:52:11 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:43:29 -0700 Message-ID: <0011231F.1433@usgs.gov> From: FROG@usgs.gov (FROG) Subject: GBlist: Last House Deconstruction in Maryland To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id LAA15594 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 600 For the uninitiated deconstruction is the salvaging of materials from houses slated for demolition. The Fairhaven/Green Home Deconstruction Number 5 a.k.a. The Last Deconstruction - At least for a year or so. December 6-7 and 12-13 8:00 a.m. until 5:00 p.m. each day. Contact: Sam Droege 410-798-6759 Contact Number on the Days of Deconstruction: Lloyd Lewis 301-261-4842 OK, this will be the last deconstruction we will perform for about a year or so. We have to gear up to cut and mill out the timbers for our school and then build the thing with all the materials we have accumulated. Therefore, if you are interested in helping out on a deconstruction, this is your last chance. For those of you who have been calling and emailing (some messages of which I could not catch your reply number to), we do plan to write up a final report and a brief how-to manual, but that will have to wait a couple of months. For those of you following our progress our last deconstruction yielded 4 24' trucks full of nearly new materials. So now we are asking to see if you would like to help out our groups with our last deconstruction. Learn the subtle beauty of using a crowbar. We will need both homewreckers and loaders/unloaders/drivers so there is plenty for all to do. Specs. On Deconstruction Number 5. Small (about 700 sq. ft.) 1950's beach cottage nestled upon the banks of the West River. Single story, 3 on 12 pitch roof, asphalt shingled, 1 in. Board Sheathing, 2 x 6 in. Fir (I think) high quality rafters nailed to a ridgeboard, 2 X 6 ceiling joists, no screws used (thank God). Concrete or Asbestos siding, 2X4 stud construction, insulated with fiberglass batts. Foundation is slab construction with masonry chimney. Flooring/paneling/ceiling/fixtures not worth anything. Windows in good shape but single paned. Plan: No denailing on site, strictly load and go Strip roof and send shingles to roofing recycler. Pop off Board Sheathing Snip rafters Pull out insulation Pop Through Ceiling Snip Joists Rip open walls Remove insulation Remove Sheathing (diagonal?) Remove Studs Save all wiring, windows, and recyclable metal Toss the rest in the dumpster Masonry will be handled by the guy who grades the site. Brick and Masonry in small enough pieces will be saved as fill for future concrete pours. Simple, yes, but we need bodies or Lloyd and Sam will have to spend the rest of the week finishing and Lloyd at least is getting too old for that kind of thing. Directions: The Town of Beverly Beach is located on the Mayo Peninsula near Annapolis, Maryland. Take route 214 (Central Avenue) to Mayo Road. Travel a few miles down Mayo Road until you come to a somewhat Y intersection bear right (which is the primary fork off of the Y) onto what is now considered to be Beverly Avenue. Pass the Bayside Restaurant (good seafood and local color) on the left and go about ½ mile further on. Take a right onto Beverly Place. Go one block, turn left on Maryland Avenue, go about ½ block and turn right on Cliff Avenue. Cliff Avenue bends around and comes out on the shore of the West River, travel until you see 1615 on your right. Things to Bring: Gloves Eye protection Dust Mask Hammer Tool Belt Sledges Crowbar/ripping bar/prybar/flatbar Step ladder Saws-all Extension Chord Wheel Barrow (we especially need these) Hack Saw Wire Cutters Be sure to Wear Warm Boots! Thanks please call Sam Droege and let him know you plans so that he can effectively plan for the event and he can keep his wife from worrying that nobody will show up. Every Board saved is a board that doesn't go to the dump and that doesn't cost the school or GreenHOME money. Estimated savings from materials for this job (based on cost of new materials) are: 2X6's - $900.00 2X4's - $300.00 Sheathing - $1200.00 Insulation - $300.00 Total: $2700.00 Rubble fill will add additional savings in concrete and labor costs. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 11:59:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA01730 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:59:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA15772 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:59:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16201; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:55:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:51:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA15715 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:51:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15711 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:50:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA32388 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:55:00 -0500 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-60-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.60]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA12587 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:54:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971125115649.006d395c@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:56:49 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Gray Water Heat Exchangers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 601 John Salmen wrote that: "Vaughn is only the manufacturer of the GFX and Carmine Vasile is the inventor. I have not found a heat exchanger dedicated to either vent or water. ...." I have a 1991 catalogue from Solar Research, Division of Refrigeration Research, PO Box 869, Brighton MI, 313-227-1151, which lists a "waste water heat exchanger" which looks very similar to Vaughn's, except it is installed horizontally, with a slight downward slope, with a slight upward slope downstream, to fill the area with the heat exchanger. I have no idea if Solar Research is still in business. 'There's nothing new under the sun.' George Ostrowski wrote that his Vestfrost uses $5/year at $0.0614, which is about 80 kWh per year -- George -- Is this possibile? -- even for 4 - 6 months of use? (Does your cold milk go on vacation too, or do you use outdoor coolth?) Is this figure for fridge only, excluding freezer? Is the 0.35 kWh/day model you mention as being available fridge-only? Has anyone ever put together a heat exchanger to retrofit to a refrigerator in northern climates? I imagine a mini-fin-tube in the refrig with another outside (larger?) with tubing between, antifreeze that gravity circulates whenever it's colder outside than inside the refrig, with some sort of thermostatic valve so you don't freeze the milk. Anyone ever done this? Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc. Montpelier VT ashapiro@together.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 12:42:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA03559 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA28354 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:42:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18377; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:38:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:34:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18078 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:33:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18074 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:33:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA09651 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:37:50 -0500 Message-id: <1459586@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 25 Nov 97 12:43:06 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: exhaust air to water Heat Pump To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 602 --- You wrote: In retrospect was it worthwhile to pull heat out of the clivus exhaust into the hot water tank? --- end of quoted material --- Yes, because it served all three needs and generated low cost hot water, which otherwise I would have supplied with an indirect tank off of the oil boiler, necessitating its use in the summer, or a separate electric DHW tank. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 12:49:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA03724 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:49:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA00173 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:49:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18910; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:44:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:40:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18514 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:40:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18509 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:40:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA09865 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:44:37 -0500 Message-id: <1459659@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 25 Nov 97 12:49:55 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Gray Water Heat Exchangers To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 603 --- You wrote: Has anyone ever put together a heat exchanger to retrofit to a refrigerator in northern climates? I imagine a mini-fin-tube in the refrig with another outside (larger?) with tubing between, antifreeze that gravity circulates whenever it's colder outside than inside the refrig, with some sort of thermostatic valve so you don't freeze the milk. Anyone ever done this? --- end of quoted material --- Sunfrost used to make a freon-based heat pipe that installed into the fridge had a small outdoor heat exchanger. We used one on a project 10 years ago and it worked well as far as I could see. No moving parts, no valves - ozone depletion potential, but that might be changed by picking a zero ODP refrigerant. As far as I know, they don't make it anymore. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 13:27:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA04706 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:27:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA10660 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:27:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20679; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:22:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:18:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA20328 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:18:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from pathway1.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [204.191.122.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA20323 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:18:21 -0500 (EST) From: timex@pathcom.com Received: from ts3l13.pathcom.com (ts3l13.pathcom.com [209.112.16.65]) by pathway1.pathcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA12055; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:22:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711251822.NAA12055@pathway1.pathcom.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: caroldag@liii.com Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:18:27 +0000 Subject: GBlist: Dexon Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 604 Carol Sorry, I forgot to add the URL - it's one of those days. http://www.corptech.com/CompanyPages/D/105HQG.cfm Marilyn http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ "Every snowflake in an avalanche pleads 'Not Guilty'" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 13:43:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA05119 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:43:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA16171 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22061; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:39:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:35:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21570 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:34:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from pathway1.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [204.191.122.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21558; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:34:41 -0500 (EST) From: timex@pathcom.com Received: from ts3l13.pathcom.com (ts3l13.pathcom.com [209.112.16.65]) by pathway1.pathcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA14744; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:38:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711251838.NAA14744@pathway1.pathcom.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: sullivan@oikos.com Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:34:45 +0000 Subject: GBlist: Leaving Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 605 Bruce; I have to leave the list for a while due to time constraints and priorities. I am really going to miss it. It was so wonderful to be connected, even electronically, with others who care about 'taking care'. I will be back when time permits, to look and learn and put in the odd two cents worth of information I may have. But on this list, the receiving very greatly outweighed the giving. I am most grateful to you and Nadav for taking the time to run this, and to all the members who so generously share their experience and expertise. Happy Holidays to you all!! Marilyn http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ "Every snowflake in an avalanche pleads 'Not Guilty'" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 13:53:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA05363 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:53:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA19246 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:52:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22897; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:48:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:44:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22472 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:44:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from pathway1.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [204.191.122.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22467 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:44:25 -0500 (EST) From: timex@pathcom.com Received: from ts3l13.pathcom.com (ts3l13.pathcom.com [209.112.16.65]) by pathway1.pathcom.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA16464 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:48:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711251848.NAA16464@pathway1.pathcom.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:44:34 +0000 Subject: GBlist: (Fwd) Dexon Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 606 Carol: I checked the entire 411Canada business directory, but couldn't find them. If no one else has it, I hope this will help. Maybe the American company can give you the info. Marilyn http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ "Every snowflake in an avalanche pleads 'Not Guilty'" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 14:04:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA05648 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:04:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA22910 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:04:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23868; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:00:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:55:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23332 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:55:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23325 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:55:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (clw231072.gte.net [207.115.231.72]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id NAA27226 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:04:13 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <347B2099.170D@gte.net> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:01:45 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: average electrical consumption in Europe] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 607 X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Message-ID: <3479A89E.63C1@gte.net> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:17:34 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Subject: Re: GBlist: average electrical consumption in Europe References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jorg, As you probably know, Europeans don't usually have all the gadgets that North Americans find essential. Clothes dryers are rarities. Refrigerators and freezers are quite small and efficient. Front loading washing machines are more efficient and laundry is done less frequently. Dishwashers are still relative luxuries. Compact fluorescent and halogen lighting are common. Home computers are rare. Water heaters are small and appliance/faucet specific. Outdoor lighting is extremely rare. Living spaces are considerably smaller on a per capita basis. In the Netherlands, many people do not even have ovens. They get by with stove tops and perhaps a microwave. Garbage disposals are illegal because of high BOD in Germany and the NL. And baby monitors, multiple tvs, stereos and vcrs, and most electrical gadgets are virtually unheard of. Yet there is no sense of deprivation -- far from it. I'd say on average, people feel richer. Cindy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 15:08:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA07408 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:08:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA12255 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:08:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26904; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:04:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:00:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26351 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:59:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26331; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:59:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA07994; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:01:32 -0700 Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:01:32 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: Last Chance for the Canadian Environment Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 608 TO ALL CANADIANS THAT CARE ABOUT THE ENVIRONMENT: Whether you are a layperson that loves clean air, water and land, or a professional engaged in an environ- mental business, and you still have not sent the Prime Minister and Environ- ment Minister Christine Stewart your suggestions about Canada's strategy for reducing CO2 emissions as promised at the Rio Conference on the Environment in 1992, please tell them how you would like to achieve a greener cleaner Canada while reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Contact addresses, sample letter and a recent testimony indicating that your opinion will be considered, are shown below.If you need more information please contact myself right away. _____________________________________________________________________________ PLEASE SEND YOUR SHORT LETTER TO: The Right Hon. Jean Chretien, Prime Minister of Canada, Fax: (613) 941-6900 Hon. Christine Stewart, Minister of Environment, Fax: (613) 995-7536 , _____________________________________________________________________________ RECENT TESTIMONY OF A RESPONSE: Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:20:49 -0700 From: "Sandra A. Niessen" To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Subject: Re: CO2 & Kyoto Initiative: copies of letters to PM Thank you, Jorg, for your initiative. I think it will make a difference.I received a letter from the PMO assuring me (!!) that they will take my letter into due consideration! If it hadn't been for you, a suspect a WHOLE LET fewer letters would have been written. We all need a catalyst like you. Best to you and Helen, >> Sandra Niessen, PhD. Associate Professor Department of Human Ecology 115 Home Economics Building University of Alberta EDMONTON, AB Canada T6G 2M8 _____________________________________________________________________________ SAMPLE LETTER: > -----Original Message----- > From: Patrick Spearing > To: pm@pm.gc.ca > Cc: stewac@parl.gc.ca; goodar@parl.gc.ca; mclela@parl.gc.ca; coppss@parl.gc.ca > Date: November 24, 1997 12:56 PM > Subject: Global Warming > > Dear Mr. Prime Minister, > > I am shocked to learn that our elected representatives are wavering on their public commitment to reduce carbon emissions in Canada in a timely way. This was an "example setting" international commitment and I cannot believe that Canada will be in the forefront of nations mocking these processes. The acknowledged long term consequences for health and global sustainability are disastrous. > I have recently heard corporate propaganda inferring huge job losses and hardship if these targets are implemented. In Harald Rostvik's book Sunshine Revolution he points out that $1million invested in the Alberta oil patch produces ONE JOB, whereas $1million in a renewable/sustainable energy service field produces TWENTY TO THIRTY JOBS. > > If you act now Canada could be a leader in the energy revolution that is already taking hold in responsible nations. If you don't act you will still be a leader - providing an excuse for other nations to avoid their responsibilities. > > Look beyond the corporate giants and you will find proven sustainable technology suitable to the Canadian climate is available. Conserval Engineering of Downsview is a world leader. Photovoltaic and solar thermal technologies have developed worldwide into viable proven technologies. However they are only viable where energy is sensibly priced. > Some positive suggestions: > 1. INTRODUCE A CARBON TAX NOW!! Even in BC... hydro energy saved here goes to offset thermally generated power elsewhere. > 2. Cars, at about 4 tonnes of carbon dioxide per year each,are not the worst offenders - homes are.Natural gas heated homes produce about 8 tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions per year, and coal fired electricity homes well over 20 tonnes. For social reasons price enough electricity for basic needs each month at reasonable rates then TAX EXCESSIVE USE. > 3. Except for select demonstration projects and education DO NOT GIVE GRANTS FOR RENEWABLE ENERGY PROJECTS. This seriously distorts the market. The best technologies should be allowed to develop by natural selection. > 4. Allow individuals and corporations to sell power back into the grid FOR THE SAME PRICE THEY BUY IT. Set strict emission and safety standards for this. This is working well in parts of the US, e.g. Idaho. You will be amazed how many people will spend their own money to participate in this. > > We do not wish to go down in history as the generation who illogically bowed to big corporations when alternatives were available. I see an analogy here with the "Tainted Blood" scandal. The solutions are available - but we keep putting off their implementation. > > We have to do something eventually, so think of future generations and stick to the schedule. HONOUR OUR COMMITMENT NOW!!! > > Yours sincerely, > > Patrick Spearing > Tel: (250) 480-6880 > Fax: (250) 721-4329 _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 19:50:41 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA14225 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:50:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA28529 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:50:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08224; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:46:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:39:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA07733 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:39:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin45.mail.aol.com (mrin45.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.155]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07724 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:39:27 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin45.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id TAA19356 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:42:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:42:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971125194257_-1775483958@mrin45.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Solar DHW Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 609 Greetings, Anybody have good leads for solar DHW installers/contractors in southeastern Massachusetts or Rhode Island? What manufacturers, technolgy and systems are good, reliable, reasonably priced, etc these days. I've lost touch with the technology for too long. Need some help on a current job. Thanks for any help. Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 19:52:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA14266 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:52:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA28973 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:52:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08461; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:48:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:44:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA08022 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:44:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA08016 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:44:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mnsinc.com (a0036.culpeper.mns.net [206.239.106.36]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA14645 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:48:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <347B9BF3.CF2638B1@mnsinc.com> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:48:04 -0800 From: khassan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: healthy insulation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 610 I've read here and at other sites some of the pros and cons re: various types of insulation and I'm just as confused as ever. All the manufacturers claim theirs to be the best(naturally). I've narrowed my choices down to icynene, fiberglas batts or blown in cellulose. I would appreciate any input from anyone with experience with these products. I am new to the list and some times the info seems a bit technical, so if you reply in layman's(layperson's) terms I 'd like that. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 25 23:16:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA18783 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:16:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA18952 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:16:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14109; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:12:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:07:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA13840 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:07:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA13835 for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust188.tnt1.clearwater.fl.gt.uu.net [208.255.243.188]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id WAA28340; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:16:02 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <347BA1F5.7A49@gte.net> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:13:41 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Westbrook CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient References: <199711242300.RAA08203@mail.topher.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 611 Paul, I'm not familiar with the Staber model, but we had front loading machines in Germany and the Netherlands. Bosch, Bauknecht, AEG, and Miele are all good, but I don't know if they're sold here under their own or sister brands. The higher the rpm, the dryer your clothes will be at the end. Energy and water efficiency are quite good on all new models. Capacity is generally smaller than in North American machines. And length of cycle is generally considerably longer. Beware the high temps. Some hausfraus like to boil and then iron their wrinkled clothes. Good luck, Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 26 07:12:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA27754 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:12:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA18080 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:12:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA23773; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:08:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:03:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA23520 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:03:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA23513 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:03:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.25.64.224] (usr2a28.rut.sover.net [206.25.64.224]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA28960; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:07:16 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <347B9BF3.CF2638B1@mnsinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:10:22 -0500 To: khassan , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: healthy insulation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 612 A detailed article that goes into the pros and cons of many different insulation materials was published in the January 1995 issue of Environmental Building News. The complete article is available on-line at: http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Features/Insulation/Insulation.html Nadav Malin Environmental Building New *****featuring the E Build Library CD-ROM, and the new EBN Product Catalog of green building materials***** At 7:48 PM -0800 11/25/97, khassan wrote: >I've read here and at other sites some of the pros and cons re: various >types of insulation and I'm just as confused as ever. All the >manufacturers claim theirs to be the best(naturally). I've narrowed my >choices down to icynene, fiberglas batts or blown in cellulose. I would >appreciate any input from anyone with experience with these products. I >am new to the list and some times the info seems a bit technical, so if >you reply in layman's(layperson's) terms I 'd like that. > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 26 07:29:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA28078 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:29:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA20795 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:28:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA24207; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:24:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:19:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA23953 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:18:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA23948 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:18:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.25.64.224] (usr2a28.rut.sover.net [206.25.64.224]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA01073; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:22:42 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <347BA1F5.7A49@gte.net> References: <199711242300.RAA08203@mail.topher.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:27:43 -0500 To: Cindy/Mike Shea , Paul Westbrook From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 613 Not to be over-pushing EBN, but... In our April 1997 issue, Alex wrote a survey article on H-axis washing machines. At the time, there were 9 available or announced in the U.S.: four from domestic manufacturers, and five from European companies. Staber is the only one that provides top-loading convenience, which was believed to be necessary for the American public in 1994 when that machine came out. Maytag, with their hot-selling Neptune, may be proving that wrong (they are having trouble keeping up with demand). The other two domestic models are from Amana and Frigidaire. Frigidaire has actually been making one for a long time, but it consistently had durability problems. They've recently redesigned theirs with apparent success. The European models available in the U.S. are from AEG, Asko, Creda, Miele, and Equator. Of these, only the Equator, which is also a condensing dryer, does not meet the new Consortium for Energy Efficiency Standards for energy efficiency. Interesting to note that of all the big appliance manufacturers, only GE had expressed no interest in making an H-axis machine. Perhaps they're still more committed to providing enough nuclear power for the old-fashioned kind! Nadav Malin Environmental Building News *****featuring the E Build Library CD-ROM, and the new EBN Product Catalog of green building materials***** At 11:13 PM -0500 11/25/97, Cindy/Mike Shea wrote: >Paul, > >I'm not familiar with the Staber model, but we had front loading machines >in Germany and the Netherlands. Bosch, Bauknecht, AEG, and Miele are all >good, but I don't know if they're sold here under their own or sister >brands. The higher the rpm, the dryer your clothes will be at the end. >Energy and water efficiency are quite good on all new models. Capacity is >generally smaller than in North American machines. And length of cycle is >generally considerably longer. Beware the high temps. Some hausfraus >like to boil and then iron their wrinkled clothes. > >Good luck, >Cindy Pollock Shea >Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 26 07:48:14 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA28522 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:48:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA24097 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:47:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA24709; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:43:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:39:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA24459 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:39:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA24455 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:39:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.25.64.224] (usr2a28.rut.sover.net [206.25.64.224]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA03919 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:43:17 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <347BA1F5.7A49@gte.net> <199711242300.RAA08203@mail.topher.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:48:34 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 614 Oh, and a couple more things... It's worth noting that spin speed alone is not the only indicator of water extraction--drum size matters too (cetrifugal force = rotation speed x radius, or something like that) This is important because none of the American models spin as fast as the Europeans, but they do tend to have bigger drums. Also, when comparing drum size to vertical-axis machines, note that you can fit a lot more clothes in the drum when there is no vertical agitator to contend with. The clothes tend to get cleaner, (less detergent is needed) and receive less wear (maybe H-axis machines aren't the best for breaking in those blue-jeans ;-) ). The downside is that most models cost around $1,000, compared with $500 or less for the old-fashioned kind. The savings in detergent alone will eventually make up that cost, but it's a big bite for many consumers. I believe Frigidaire's is cheaper--around $700. Nadav Malin Environmental Building News *****featuring the E Build Library CD-ROM, and the new EBN Product Catalog of green building materials***** >At 11:13 PM -0500 11/25/97, Cindy/Mike Shea wrote: >>Paul, >> >>I'm not familiar with the Staber model, but we had front loading machines >>in Germany and the Netherlands. Bosch, Bauknecht, AEG, and Miele are all >>good, but I don't know if they're sold here under their own or sister >>brands. The higher the rpm, the dryer your clothes will be at the end. >>Energy and water efficiency are quite good on all new models. Capacity is >>generally smaller than in North American machines. And length of cycle is >>generally considerably longer. Beware the high temps. Some hausfraus >>like to boil and then iron their wrinkled clothes. >> >>Good luck, >>Cindy Pollock Shea >>Promoting Sustainable Development > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 26 09:13:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA00751 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:13:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA12814 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:12:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26605; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:08:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:04:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26350 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:04:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26345 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:04:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.55 (pm1-23.hoosier.net [206.106.67.55]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA20932 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:08:00 -0500 Message-ID: <347C2C8E.2ADF@bloomington.in.us> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:05:02 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: healthy insulation References: <347B9BF3.CF2638B1@mnsinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 615 If you're talking about occupant health, it's possible to use virtually any insulation IF YOU SEPARATE IT WELL FROM THE LIVING SPACE. In other words, build a tight house with the inner surface (at the drywall) as air-tight (pressure-tight) as possible. If there are no small gaps and cracks for particles or gases from the insulation to migrate through into the living space, then the insulation is unlikely to affect you. Of course, tight construction makes the insulation function more effectively too, and it minimizes hidden moisture problems. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 26 09:54:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA02015 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA23584 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:54:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28606; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:50:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:45:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28201 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:45:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28197 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:45:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA16561 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:49:27 -0500 Message-id: <1468906@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 26 Nov 97 09:54:45 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 616 On Euro washers, beware of models which only accept a cold water feed line, due to having an electric heater built in. If you make your hot water renewably, you don't want electrically heated water instead! And if you just pipe hot water to the machine instead, you can't use a cold wash cycle. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 26 10:02:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA02246 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:02:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA25643 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:02:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29072; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:58:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:54:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28759 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:53:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from pnl.gov (relay.pnl.gov [130.20.128.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28754 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:53:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from pnlmse1.pnl.gov by pnl.gov (PMDF V5.1-10 #21283) with ESMTP id <01IQGG97XQ348X0AR3@pnl.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 06:57:36 PST Received: from ccmail.pnl.gov by pnlmse1.pnl.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id XRR2GCHR; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:01:40 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ccmail.pnl.gov (IMA Internet Exchange 2.12 Enterprise) id 00350EA0; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 06:57:29 -0800 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:00:42 -0800 From: ad_lee@ccmail.pnl.gov (Allen D Lee) Subject: Re[2]: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient To: Cindy/Mike Shea , Paul Westbrook , Nadav Malin Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <00350EA0.4025@ccmail.pnl.gov> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-description: cc:Mail note part Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 617 Note that GE has opposed higher appliance efficiency standards; due to market demand, their approach for now appears to be to market the Frigidaire H-axis under their own name. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient Author: Nadav Malin at -SMTPLink Date: 11/26/97 7:27 AM Not to be over-pushing EBN, but... In our April 1997 issue, Alex wrote a survey article on H-axis washing machines. At the time, there were 9 available or announced in the U.S.: four from domestic manufacturers, and five from European companies. Staber is the only one that provides top-loading convenience, which was believed to be necessary for the American public in 1994 when that machine came out. Maytag, with their hot-selling Neptune, may be proving that wrong (they are having trouble keeping up with demand). The other two domestic models are from Amana and Frigidaire. Frigidaire has actually been making one for a long time, but it consistently had durability problems. They've recently redesigned theirs with apparent success. The European models available in the U.S. are from AEG, Asko, Creda, Miele, and Equator. Of these, only the Equator, which is also a condensing dryer, does not meet the new Consortium for Energy Efficiency Standards for energy efficiency. Interesting to note that of all the big appliance manufacturers, only GE had expressed no interest in making an H-axis machine. Perhaps they're still more committed to providing enough nuclear power for the old-fashioned kind! Nadav Malin Environmental Building News *****featuring the E Build Library CD-ROM, and the new EBN Product Catalog of green building materials***** At 11:13 PM -0500 11/25/97, Cindy/Mike Shea wrote: >Paul, > >I'm not familiar with the Staber model, but we had front loading machines >in Germany and the Netherlands. Bosch, Bauknecht, AEG, and Miele are all >good, but I don't know if they're sold here under their own or sister >brands. The higher the rpm, the dryer your clothes will be at the end. >Energy and water efficiency are quite good on all new models. Capacity is >generally smaller than in North American machines. And length of cycle is >generally considerably longer. Beware the high temps. Some hausfraus >like to boil and then iron their wrinkled clothes. > >Good luck, >Cindy Pollock Shea >Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 26 10:34:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA03034 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:34:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA03811 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:34:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00217; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:30:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:25:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29876 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:25:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from eken.hv.se (root@eken.hv.se [194.47.65.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29872 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:25:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from almen.hv.se (almen.hv.se [194.47.99.2]) by eken.hv.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19856 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:27:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from sb02itn (sb02itn.hv.se [194.47.81.128]) by almen.hv.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA01450 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:23:57 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971126172552.008ea6d8@student.hv.se> X-Sender: jgrib94@student.hv.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:25:52 -0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Jonas Granstrand Subject: GBlist: Claybuilding Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 618 Hi there fellow grrenbuilders!! We're some students at Vaxjo University in Sweden that are studying for building engineers and as a project we're going to build a wall made of clay. Now we're wondering if someone could give us som hints an tips in building with this material. We were planning to mix the clay with wood and in this way make bricks, a technique that we have seen in Germany. We would also like to know with what material we could put the bricks together, cement or something else. Thank you very much for your help. Jonas Granstrand jgrib94@student.hv.se Fredrik Lennartsson fleib95@student.hv.se Fredrik Petersson fpeib95@student.hv.se ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 26 11:09:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03791 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:09:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA12909 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:08:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01702; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:04:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:00:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01327 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:00:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01321 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:00:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.93] (1Cust93.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.93]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA26443 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:04:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711261604.IAA26443@norway.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 08:07:53 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 619 Listers fortunate to live in the Pacific Northwest can knock off another $130. BPA offers a cash rebate for H-axis washers through the WashWise program. You can see details on the equipment, benefits and the rebate at: http://www.energyoutlet.com/res/appliances/washers/index.html Bruce S >The downside is that most models cost around $1,000, compared with $500 or >less for the old-fashioned kind. The savings in detergent alone will >eventually make up that cost, but it's a big bite for many consumers. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 26 11:42:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04482 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:42:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA21525 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:41:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02939; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:33:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02661 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:33:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin41.mail.aol.com (mrin41.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.151]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02657 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:33:09 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin41.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA09028; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:36:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:36:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971126113627_-2077054669@mrin41.mail.aol.com> To: obrien@hevanet.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: re: insulating dropped ceilings Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 620 In a message dated 11/25/97 1:16:07 AM, you wrote: <> My experience is that plenum returns often cause intentional airflows throught the building cavities which result in energy, moisture, indoor air problems or all three. My preference is hard ducted returns. Because of the cost and felxibility benefits Harvey brought up, I often end up by teaching folks how to design, build or refurbish return plenums into something that is substantially more airtight than they generally are. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 26 12:01:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA04814 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:01:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA26815 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:01:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03894; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:57:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:52:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03550 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:51:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail11.digital.com (mail11.digital.com [192.208.46.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03541 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from us7rmc.bb.dec.com (us7rmc.bb.dec.com [16.53.0.29]) by mail11.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.5/1.0/WV) with SMTP id LAA05894 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:49:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ricks.enet by us7rmc.bb.dec.com (5.65/rmc-17Jan97) id AA00784; Wed, 26 Nov 97 11:42:59 -0500 Message-Id: <9711261642.AA00784@us7rmc.bb.dec.com> Received: from ricks.enet; by us7rmc.enet; Wed, 26 Nov 97 11:49:21 EST Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 11:49:21 EST From: He who toys with the most dies wins To: greenbuilding@crest.org Apparently-To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 621 >The downside is that most models cost around $1,000, compared with $500 or >less for the old-fashioned kind. The savings in detergent alone will >eventually make up that cost, but it's a big bite for many consumers. I >believe Frigidaire's is cheaper--around $700. I've heard that you must use a special type of detergent in horizontal machines that is much more expensive than what's normally on the shelves here in the U.S. so you actually don't save anything on detergent. The Frigidaire is indeed around $700, but it was $1000 when it first came out. I'm hoping that the Amana will get down to at least $800 in a couple years. /carl ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 26 12:38:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA05656 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:37:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA07505 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:37:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05869; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:33:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:29:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05388 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:29:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05376; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:29:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA20791; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:32:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-18.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.146) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma020596; Wed Nov 26 11:31:44 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971126123104.006b2ee0@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: eeb98ord@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:31:07 -0500 To: energysoft@crest.org From: "Bion Howard (EEBA)" Subject: GBlist: EEBA Software Survey Report (FYI) Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org, AESP-net@aesp.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAB05377 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 622 EEBA Computer Software Survey Completed By: Bion Howard 10/97 (originally published in EEBA Journal) contact: Using the EEBA "open" e-mail server, EEBA associate staff solicited comments on energy efficiency design analysis and ratings software. A preliminary report has been compiled from over 40 responses sent back via the EEBA list, and other sources. Findings from this unscientific fact-finding survey, sent to a total of 1,100 email addresses across three major list-servers (EEBA-L, Greenbuilding, and AESP-Net ) designers, engineers, architects and builders widely disagree on the usability and reliability of currently available computer tools on the market or available from the Department of Energy and other government sources. Several general themes emerge from the survey results: 1. energy design analysis software must be made easier to use; while 2. also being able to produce very accurate and detailed outputs suitable for sharing with clients; 3. it should have a graphical interface, rather than large tabular data screens; 4. the program code should be well validated preferably with peer-reviewed papers available on the results of verification / validation efforts; 5. outputs should include recognition of major energy efficiency standards and model codes compliance; 6. users should be able to access extensive help-screens, and all the data base entries for editing costs, weather inputs, economics parameters; and 7. software engineers should not forget about the large base of Macintosh users in the energy and architectural field when creating new programs. 8. execution speed of the programs should be quick without great sacrifice in accuracy of results, and 9. the ability to share data with AutoCAD was also mentioned by some respondents as an important attribute. Building types on which analysis was focused by users were evenly split between residential and commercial and about 2/3 of the respondents indicated they performed both commercial and residential work. Also, nearly half of respondents indicated they used software for "energy ratings" and for demonstrating "code compliance." Other answers included R&D assessments, weatherization assessment, and utility program evaluation. Surprisingly less frequent were responses indicating use of software for HVAC system sizing. However, this may be mitigated by the fact the question did not exclude HVAC sizing from the "commercial" or the "residential" category. In fact there were several comments in the responses that software for energy design should be improved specifically to do a better job sizing equipment and distribution systems in a "whole building" context. This approach would permit changes in envelope design, passive solar and daylighting, ventilation strategies, and other modifications to the "loads" side of the equation to be rapidly digested to prepare revised equipment and distribution system sizing data. Responders reported US Department of Energy’s "DOE-2.1" program was most widely used, followed by (in order of frequency) HOT-2000, MicroPAS / CALPAS, ENERGY-10, ASEAM, MEC-Check and Aec-REM. However, due to the small relative response there is no statistical significance associated with these responses (Note: EEBA does not yet officially endorse any computer programs for evaluating energy efficiency, but is currently considering doing so). Most persons indicated they have been using computer software for energy analysis for over three years, with many responding that they have been using software for energy design analysis for over five years. Five responders indicated they have been using software for over 15 years – so the population surveyed appeared to be fairly representative of both newer and veteran users. Also, five responded they had been using software energy design analysis tools less than three years. Conclusions from the EEBA software survey are fairly simple. · Users seem eager to have more functionality and whole buildings analysis capability embedded into energy design software. · Many users have considerable experience over many years with such software, yet while DOE-2.1 was mentioned as the most frequently used program, there was no single software package that received high praise. · There were some positive comments about the new NREL-PSIC program "Designing Low Energy Buildings" ENERGY-10 by respondents (ENERGY-10 is still under development and Version 1.2 is expected to be released in early 1998). · Another new software package – the Wright Soft "Suite" – of energy analysis programs including the Wright-J program (computer version of ACCA’s Manual J cited in the EEBA Criteria) was not checked by any respondent. EEBA will be continuing to look into the broad array of energy design software to help its members focus in on the top products providing best results. But from my experience as a user of most of the programs mentioned in this article – some since 1978 – it is most vital to become very familiar with whatever software you use, so errors can be avoided and so that limitations to the results are understood (all programs are limited compared to the "real world" they try to model). Sources: More information on energy design analysis computer software can be found at the US DOE’ Software "Tools Directory" ---------- Information on EEBA: 501[c.]3 non-profit organization ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact: Bion Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology bhoward2@sprynet.com Web: ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 26 15:29:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA09711 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA22337 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:29:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16930; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:25:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:21:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16512 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:21:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16504 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:21:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from nehemias (port-sac33.cwo.com [207.173.173.148]) by mail.cwo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA30278 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:25:02 -0800 Message-Id: <199711262025.MAA30278@mail.cwo.com> From: "Nehemiah Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #453 Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:23:32 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 623 Andy, When I used to be a builder (over ten years ago) I provided a very low tech version of your suggestion. I installed refrigerators so that the face fo door was flush with the wall and the back was exposed to outside air. That put the machines own coils in the condition you describe. The back of the machines are within a vented cabinet or an unheated back porch so they are not exposed to outdoor conditions other than temperature. The space around the box is insulated to a higher level than the wall within which it is installed and the face is weel sealed against air leakage with trim and gaskets (no caulk). The refer is on castors so that it can be slid in and out for servicing. This has the added advantage of freeing up valuable kitchen space. Nehemiah Stone California Energy Commission > > Has anyone ever put together a heat exchanger to retrofit to a refrigerator > in northern climates? I imagine a mini-fin-tube in the refrig with another > outside (larger?) with tubing between, antifreeze that gravity circulates > whenever it's colder outside than inside the refrig, with some sort of > thermostatic valve so you don't freeze the milk. Anyone ever done this? > > Andy Shapiro > Energy Balance, Inc. > Montpelier VT > ashapiro@together.net > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 26 16:36:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA11072 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:36:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA07406 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:35:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA19374; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:31:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:26:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA19021 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:26:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19017 for ; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from iron.ampsc.com (iron [207.102.161.161]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA09287; Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:36:09 -0800 Message-ID: <347C93FB.55AA@ampsc.com> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:26:20 -0800 From: Richard Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: He who toys with the most dies wins CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient References: <9711261642.AA00784@us7rmc.bb.dec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 624 I am reading, with interest, the thread on horizontal axis washing machines, and I can't help but conclude that there is an issue, found, concerning washing machines and washing/drying machines. My exprience and knowledge base provides the horizontal machines are tumble washing and tumble drying, with self contained heater elements. Price wise, it appears that washing/drying h-axis machines cost no more than comporable separate washing and drying machines, and removes the amount of labor required to transfer the load from machine to machine, and does provide a space saving opportunity. Richard. -- R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 27 09:44:05 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA02103 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:44:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA20682 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:43:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10862; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:39:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:34:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10582 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:34:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10578 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:34:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41078; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 07:36:42 -0700 Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 07:36:42 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: khassan Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: healthy insulation In-Reply-To: <347B9BF3.CF2638B1@mnsinc.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 625 NoName brand: My desending order of priority (considering numerous criteria) from your list: 1) cellulose 2) icynene 3) fiberglass (with 40% recycled content) _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, khassan wrote: > > I've read here and at other sites some of the pros and cons re: various > types of insulation and I'm just as confused as ever. All the > manufacturers claim theirs to be the best(naturally). I've narrowed my > choices down to icynene, fiberglas batts or blown in cellulose. I would > appreciate any input from anyone with experience with these products. I > am new to the list and some times the info seems a bit technical, so if > you reply in layman's(layperson's) terms I 'd like that. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 27 11:59:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04791 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:59:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA19379 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:59:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14399; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:55:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:49:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14034 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:49:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14030 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:49:02 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 12149 invoked by uid 0); 27 Nov 1997 16:55:09 -0000 Received: from ppp-39.canton.northnet.org (HELO ?205.232.94.19?) (205.232.94.19) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 27 Nov 1997 16:55:09 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:06:06 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: embodied energy Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 626 In response to Rob Harrison's comments: >Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:23:29 -0500 (EST) >From: RHDesign@aol.com >Subject: GBlist: GBIList: Re: embodied energy: > >Thom M. said... >>>What is "meaningful" [in terms of the reduction of energy use] is a rather >subjective assessment.<< > >As my fuzzy memory recalls, in his lecture Ray Cole said the typical >commercial building used 100 times more operating energy over its life than >the energy embodied in its materials. Can someone confirm that? > >Assuming I'm close, let's just say this standard building would use 10,000 >units of energy over its life, and that 100 units would therefore be embodied >in the materials. If you reduced the operating energy consumption to 25% of >the standard (as the folks at the Rocky Mountain Institute have demonstrated >can be done) you'd save 7500 units of energy. If you reduced the embodied >energy by the same factor, you'd save 75 units. That 75 units would be a much >bigger piece of the energy pie once you'd gotten the operating energy down to >2500 units. > >That said, yes, I agree, every little bit counts. > >Rob Harrison >Seattle The more important point that Rocky Mountain Institute has made about energy conservation is to always remember the big picture and to put one's limited dollars where they will do the most good. An "every little bit counts" approach is overly simplistic and can easily lead to spending money on improvements in one area (e.g. reduced embodied energy) which return only a small fraction of the benefits compared to if the money had been spent most wisely. In regards to buildings' embodied energy versus lifetime operating energy: If it is true that the lifetime operating energy is 100 times more than the embodied energy then it is very unlikely that a dollar spent on reducing embodied energy will save nearly as many kWh's (or BTU's for non-metric system people) as a dollar spent on reducing operating energy requirements. Ideally, one should calculate which energy conserving methods and materials will provide the most "bang for the buck" over the life of the building taking everything into account--from raw material extraction to eventual disposition of materials after the building is defunct. Such calculations are usually difficult and include many assumptions and will never be completely accurate. However, when Rob starts throwing numbers around he reaches the conclusion that embodied energy could be "a much bigger piece of the energy pie once you'd gotten the operating energy down to [1/4 of current averages]". And he's right when you aren't looking at the big picture: The embodied energy would be exactly 3 times more with his assumptions ... but 3 times more than 1/100 of the total energy is still only 1/33 of the total energy. If you were given the choice between two types of bank Certificate's of Deposits, both being equivalent except that one is named the Embodied Energy CD paying an interest rate of 1% and the other called the Operating Energy CD paying an interest rate of 33%, which would you put your money into? "Every little bit" put into the Embodied Energy CD would be a huge waste of your money when you have the choice of the Operating Energy CD. This is all very elementary arithmentic, but it is amazing how rarely this type of thinking is used in decisions which in aggregate amount to billions of dollars a year. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 27 12:10:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA04975 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:10:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA21544 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:10:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14857; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:05:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:02:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14581 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:01:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin45.mail.aol.com (mrin45.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.155]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14577 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:01:55 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin45.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA12388 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:05:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:05:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971127120528_1004546977@mrin45.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 627 I have had an ASKO washer for a few years now. I bought it to reduce the draw on my well which tends to pull in fines when used to much. Added benefits are to the septic system, and reduced energy use (both for drawing water and heating water). It does take some getting used to the differences in soap and load size but it is quiet enough so one can talk on the phone at the desk next to the washer (except when in extraction mode which sounds like a turbine engine starting up, 1200 rpm). Lately I managed buy a slightly used ASKO condensing dryer to sit on top of the washer. The beauty of this dryer is the condenser which keeps the air drying the clothes separate from the air running through the condenser to cool it (think heat recover ventilator system). No humidity or lint in the house but warm enough to heat our house on the weekend (and a delay timer so it will run at 5AM to heat the house before I get up in the morning). No, I don't sell these for a living but I think the technology is ably done. Then there is the price, look for them used if you can, they are good for many years. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Associates, Inc. Contractors in Ithaca, NY for: Thoughtful efficient housing Historic Restoration Construction for the environmentally sensitive On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Paul Westbrook wrote: > Our washing machine just died. Does anyone have any experience with any > of the new horizontal axis machines? I'm specifically interested in the > Staber 2000, but will gladly accept comments on any others. >Thanks, > Paul Westbrook > pwest@topher.net > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 27 13:16:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06162 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:16:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA08621 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16440; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:12:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:07:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA16034 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:07:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.swec.com (cliff.swec.com [199.103.216.36]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16030 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:07:02 -0500 (EST) From: malcolm.scott@stoneweb.com Received: from bos10.swec.com (bos10.swec.com [199.103.216.37]) by cliff.swec.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA04369 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:10:32 -0500 Received: by bos10.swec.com with VINES-ISMTP; Thu, 27 Nov 97 13:11:21 EST Date: Thu, 27 Nov 97 18:11:15 GMT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient X-Incognito-SN: 525 X-Incognito-Version: 4.10.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 628 I use a washer dryer myself because of the space issue, but independant testing in this country (UK) has shown that the washing performance is not as good as a dedicated washer. Also these machines only dry half the wash load, so you have to unload and reload them between washing and drying, unless of course you wash only half a load. They should cost less than separate machines, but they don't. Malcolm Scott I am reading, with interest, the thread on horizontal axis washing machines, and I can't help but conclude that there is an issue, found, concerning washing machines and washing/drying machines. My exprience and knowledge base provides the horizontal machines are tumble washing and tumble drying, with self contained heater elements. Price wise, it appears that washing/drying h-axis machines cost no more than comporable separate washing and drying machines, and removes the amount of labor required to transfer the load from machine to machine, and does provide a space saving opportunity. Richard. -- R J Moore & Associates ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 27 13:17:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06179 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA08832 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:17:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16519; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:12:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:08:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA16108 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:08:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.swec.com (cliff.swec.com [199.103.216.36]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16103 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:08:45 -0500 (EST) From: malcolm.scott@stoneweb.com Received: from bos10.swec.com (bos10.swec.com [199.103.216.37]) by cliff.swec.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA04392 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:12:14 -0500 Received: by bos10.swec.com with VINES-ISMTP; Thu, 27 Nov 97 13:13:01 EST Date: Thu, 27 Nov 97 18:12:55 GMT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient X-Incognito-SN: 525 X-Incognito-Version: 4.10.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 629 Horizontal machines use any low suds detergent. Is that special? Malcolm Scott >The downside is that most models cost around $1,000, compared with $500 or >less for the old-fashioned kind. The savings in detergent alone will >eventually make up that cost, but it's a big bite for many consumers. I >believe Frigidaire's is cheaper--around $700. I've heard that you must use a special type of detergent in horizontal machines that is much more expensive than what's normally on the shelves here in the U.S. so you actually don't save anything on detergent. The Frigidaire is indeed around $700, but it was $1000 when it first came out. I'm hoping that the Amana will get down to at least $800 in a couple years. /carl ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 27 14:40:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA07690 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:40:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26192 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:40:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18685; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:35:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:31:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA18277 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:31:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18263; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:31:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA149418; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:32:48 -0700 Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:32:48 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: Green Schools Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 630 As part of a client's potential interest in an environmentally responsible school, could someone please give me some contacts, e-mails, precedents, references of work already completed? I remember some discussion of a strawbale Waldorf Schule and another California (?) school. I am familiar with Greg Allen's Boyne River school, but need more and varied examples to fortify the client's appetite. Thanks. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 27 17:19:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA10524 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:19:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA28344 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:19:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22115; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:15:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:11:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA21873 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:10:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from axil.intranet.ca (axil.intranet.ca [206.51.251.51]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21868 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:10:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.51.250.45] (ppp45.intranet.ca [206.51.250.45]) by axil.intranet.ca (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA07542 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:13:11 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: larsson@mail.intranet.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:16:12 -0400 To: (GreenBuilding Listserver) greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nils Larsson Subject: GBlist: GBlist : re. green schools Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 631 For your info (Jorg Ostrowski), the Canadian team in the Green Building Challenge '98 (GBC '98) is including a new high school as one of the three projects to be assessed in Canada. The school is currently under construction and is located in Nova Scotia. We can't guarantee that it will be the greenest in Canada, much less North America, but the detailed assessment should be of interest. The researcher gathering info on the school is David Stewart (ab206@chebucto.ns.ca) and he can give you further details. The U.S. national team is also including a school in its batch of five buildings to be assessed. For details contact Gail Lindsey at dhararch@aol.com. Nils Larsson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 27 17:37:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA10782 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:37:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA01635 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22591; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:32:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:28:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA22322 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:28:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (mail.bigpond.com [139.134.5.225]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22318 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:28:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ma-a01-pool-154.tmns.net.au (ma-a01-pool-154.tmns.net.au [139.134.93.154]) by teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id za191385 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 08:32:52 +1100 From: "Brian Woodward" To: , "Jonas Granstrand" Subject: Re: GBlist: Claybuilding Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:01:41 +1100 Message-ID: <01bcfae0$c98cd6c0$LocalHost@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 632 Hi, Jonas, There are basically two things you need to be concerned about when building with earth, strength and durability (the same as with most structural building materials I suppose). With mudbrick (there are other earth building techniques - but I think mudbricks is the most appropriate) if used in domestic scale construction, they will be strong enough if you can make them and lay them in a wall without them falling apart. Some soils are inherently resistant to weathering, but some are not. Soils that are not can be protected by roof design, surface coatings (I find linseed oil to be the most effective), or as a last resort, the addition of stabilizers such as cement. Brian Woodward, Earthways, Australia. Qualified Architect -specialising in and living with Sustainable Technologies, Low Cost, Owner Built, Passive Solar, Loadbearing Mudbrick construction, Composting Toilets, and Solar Electricity. -Overseas Aid Work in Nepal and South Africa. -Earthways Sustainable Lifestyles Resource Center, Wollombi, N.S.W. Australia. e-mail brianwoodward@bigpond.com Webpage(under construction) www.users.bigpond.com/nsw9999 -----Original Message----- From: Jonas Granstrand To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thursday, November 27, 1997 1:31 AM Subject: GBlist: Claybuilding >Hi there fellow grrenbuilders!! >We're some students at Vaxjo University in Sweden that are studying for >building engineers and as a project we're going to build a wall made of clay. >Now we're wondering if someone could give us som hints an tips in building >with this material. >We were planning to mix the clay with wood and in this way make bricks, a >technique that we have seen in Germany. >We would also like to know with what material we could put the bricks >together, cement or something else. > >Thank you very much for your help. > > >Jonas Granstrand jgrib94@student.hv.se >Fredrik Lennartsson fleib95@student.hv.se >Fredrik Petersson fpeib95@student.hv.se > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 27 19:26:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA13026 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:26:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA20024 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:25:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25117; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:16:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA24837 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:16:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24823 for ; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 19:16:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from vic-as-01a15.direct.ca [204.174.246.15] by jack.direct.ca with smtp (Exim 1.70 #1) id 0xbEAj-0002UQ-00; Thu, 27 Nov 1997 16:20:42 -0800 X-Sender: abest#direct.ca@direct.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 16:18:51 -0800 To: GreenBuilding Listserver From: abest@direct.ca (Andrew Best) Subject: GBlist: Eco Footprint for Residential Buildings Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 633 I would like to establish the ecological footprint of a single family residence I am designing. Does anyone have a good source for an environmental "check list" or rating system for calculating the ecological footprint of a single family residence? I am also looking for information on urban ecological "unbuildable" home design and construction. Our intension is to build a home that is completely unbuildable (ie. can be completely disassembled and recycled). I would also like to begin the design process by defining a set of "ecological design principles" for the house. Any suggestions? And, I am looking for like a set of simple, generic, ecological specifications for residential construction. Any thoughts? Andrew Best ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 28 03:46:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA20923 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 03:46:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA09367 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 03:45:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA04516; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 03:41:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Nov 1997 03:37:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA04288 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 03:37:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA04284 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 03:37:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from h3x.ampsc.com (h3x.ampsc.com [207.102.161.116]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA21055 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 00:48:08 -0800 Message-ID: <347E82C3.7148@ampsc.com> Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 00:37:23 -0800 From: Richard Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient] Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="------------6FFF16553D6F" Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 634 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6FFF16553D6F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 --------------6FFF16553D6F Message-ID: <347E81D4.234B@ampsc.com> Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 00:33:24 -0800 From: Richard Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: malcolm.scott@stoneweb.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am suprised to hear of the dis-satisfaction with combination washer/dryer machines. I would suggest the detergent used, may be lacking, and the dryer phase timer may need adjusting. I would also check the exhaust venting, which permits the escape of dryer humidity,and other than that, contact Kariba distributors, and your mfg rep, voicing your problem, seeking satisfaction. Richard. -- R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 --------------6FFF16553D6F Message-ID: <347E8230.14E8@ampsc.com> Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 00:34:56 -0800 From: Richard Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: malcolm.scott@stoneweb.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit perhaps, read the mfg documentation. Richard. -- R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 --------------6FFF16553D6F-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 28 05:54:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA22835 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 05:54:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA29580 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 05:53:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA06266; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 05:49:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Nov 1997 05:45:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA06038 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 05:45:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin85.mail.aol.com (mrin85.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.195]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA06034 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 05:45:27 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin85.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id FAA08612 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 05:49:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 05:49:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971128054859_-939452407@mrin85.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: embodied energy Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 635 Apologies, apparently my post wasn't clear. My point (actually Ray Cole's point,to properly attribute my source), was: Over the life of a typical building, operating energy is 100 times embodied energy. After a building's operating energy has been reduced to 1/4 of the current standard, its embodied energy becomes a relatively larger piece of the building's total energy pie, and therefore more meaningful as a chunk to look at. But hey, that doesn't mean I'm going to _stop_ specifying materials with lower embodied energy in my projects... Rob Harrison ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 28 06:43:54 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA23594 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 06:43:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA08122 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 06:43:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA07128; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 06:39:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Nov 1997 06:35:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA06893 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 06:35:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from eken.hv.se (root@eken.hv.se [194.47.65.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA06889 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 06:35:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from almen.hv.se (almen.hv.se [194.47.99.2]) by eken.hv.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08192 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:37:32 +0100 (MET) Received: from sb04itn (sb04itn.hv.se [194.47.81.143]) by almen.hv.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11707 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:33:41 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971128093404.008f52a0@student.hv.se> X-Sender: kmeib94@student.hv.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 10:34:04 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Katja Mengel Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id GAA06890 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 636 I´m from Sweden, and I think that my country has come very far in dealing with trying to solv the environmental problems in the buildingbuissnes. I mean for example taking care of waste products, like reusing them, using more environmental friendly materials in the houses and so on. And we´re also very serious about this Agenda work at a local level. Comparing to other countries in Europe (not all) I think that we´re a bit ahead in those areas. This way of building might be more expensive, but maybe not in the long run if you think about all efforts we must make in the future to "save the world" from the "past-human factor". My question is now: Why doesn´t every country try, whith all their power, to repaire the damage made of former generations and prevent more damage to be done? Is it a matter of money, or lack of knowledge, or lacyness, or denyall? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 28 11:38:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28677 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:38:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA12417 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:37:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14016; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:33:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:29:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13667 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:29:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin39.mail.aol.com (mrin39.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.149]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13663 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:29:23 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin39.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA26344; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:32:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:32:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971128113246_-1994299757@mrin39> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Schools Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 637 Jorg: You might contact Greg VanMechelen, architect working with Cristopher Day on short and long-term projects for the East Bay Waldorf School in El Sobrante, California. Greg is reachable by email at: GVanMech@aol.com David Kibbey ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 28 13:16:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA00628 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:16:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA00771 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:16:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16636; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:11:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:07:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA16331 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:07:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16326 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.20] (mke-1-4.binc.net [208.142.229.20]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA23414; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:11:10 -0600 Message-Id: <199711281811.MAA23414@glacier.binc.net> Subject: GBlist: re: us and them Date: Fri, 28 Nov 97 12:21:29 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "Katja Mengel" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA16328 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 638 Katja, Thank you for your thoughts and questions regarding building philosophy in "every country"- which I take to mean the U.S. Here is my view of the subject. I am a builder, a citizen of the U.S., and a frequent traveller to Europe. I believe that many of us here in the U.S. are still suffering from what I call the "frontier mentality". We still believe in our heart of hearts that natural resources in this country and supply of land are inexhaustable. The people on the GB list are the extreme minority, in terms of thought and dedication to change on this issue. It is only within the last few years that any amount of debate about this issue has been waged on the public front, and it is being met even now with tremendous resistance from those whose businesses and ways of life are entrenched in the "old paradigm". You would need to spend some time here to understand completely, but let me try to summarize the history as I see it: European immigrants came here over the last couple of hundred years, leaving lands which had been largely stripped of their natural resources hundreds of years before. I am a timber framer. As you know, timber framing in Europe evolved to make use of smaller and smaller trees as the resource was depleted. By the 1700's, there was essentially no old growth left there, and framers had to learn to make due with short, inferior wood. Imagine those framers coming to this country, where we had the largest virgin forests in the known world. Also the largest ore deposits, oil deposits, firtile soils, etc etc. We have been extracting those resources, without understanding the effects of our actions (or not caring to understand), for two hundred years straight, and are just now starting to run out. we do not yet believe running out is really possible. So we have some catching up to you all to do in terms of thinking about the resources as being exhaustable. What is most frustrating to me is that we have not learned how to look to you in Europe and Scandanavia for examples of what to do- and in many cases what not to do. It seems sometimes that the forces in place are hell-bent on finding out the hard way. Chris Koehn Top Ridge Homes My question is now: Why doesn´t every country try, whith all their power, to repaire the damage made of former generations and prevent more damage to be done? Is it a matter of money, or lack of knowledge, or lacyness, or denyall? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 28 13:56:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA01475 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:56:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA08086 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17867; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:52:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:48:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17555 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:47:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontier.net (root@frontier.net [199.45.141.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17550 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:47:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dro-2-59.frontier.net [199.45.201.59]) by frontier.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA20608; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:52:34 -0700 Message-ID: <347F11F8.2898@frontier.net> Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 11:48:24 -0700 From: Barry Goldberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frazer Dougherty CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Efficient Washing Machines & Vesfrost Fridge References: <1.5.4.32.19971125143244.00712b6c@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 639 I'm not familiar with this brand of washer/dryer. Can anyone tell me where to get more info on it? I would be leary of 120V dryers. They are very ineffecient and take forever to build up enough heat to get clothes dry. I'd like to know what a non-venting dryer does. Again I'm leary, the exhaust and lint have to go somewhere. If you live in a dry climate, a good indoor vent filter, usually water works well. Barry Goldberg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 28 14:16:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA01963 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:16:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA11556 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:16:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18900; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:11:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:08:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA18586 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontier.net (root@frontier.net [199.45.141.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18582 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:07:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dro-2-59.frontier.net [199.45.201.59]) by frontier.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA21053 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:12:22 -0700 Message-ID: <347F1747.1E84@frontier.net> Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:11:03 -0700 From: Barry Goldberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient References: <9711261642.AA00784@us7rmc.bb.dec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 640 Any good quality low suds detergent will work in a top or front load washer. I would caution folks about Frigidaire products. In general they don't make good quality machines. I haven't seen or heard anything on their front loader to change my mind. GE is the same way, maybe worse. Barry Goldberg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 28 14:51:14 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA02819 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:51:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA17378 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:50:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20165; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:45:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:41:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19892 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:41:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu (root@eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu [130.207.194.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19888 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:41:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [130.207.206.198] (apearce.gtri.gatech.edu [130.207.206.198]) by eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA15181; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:45:13 -0500 X-Sender: annie@eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:51:30 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, jgrib94@student.hv.se.fleib95@student.hv.se.fpeib95@student.hv.se From: "Annie R. Pearce" Subject: GBlist: Clay building Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 641 Building with Clay - Lessons Learned I am an adjunct professor of Architecture at Georgia Tech in Atlanta, GA. I recently taught a class in Green Building where my students constructed a small structure using (mostly) natural or waste materials. All three walls of the structure incorporated clay in some way: West wall: Glass bottles with a matrix of cement, fine aggregate, and clay South wall: Tires, compressed soil, and miscellaneous fillers - "Earthship" East wall: Clay-cement mixture with magnolia leaves (three different leaf-clay-cement ratios) All work was done by hand, including mixing, compressing, placement, and complaining ;-) We learned a lot from this two-day laboratory, including the fact that clay (red Georgia clay) is miserable to combine with anything else by hand....The magnolia leaf wall was especially a disaster with respect to getting a consistent mix with good compaction. We chose to try using magnolia leaves to improve the durability and weathering properties of the rammed earth, as well as to find a use for them. Magnolia leaves are notoriously tough and highly acidic - they can ruin a compost heap quite effectively, and are quite a challenge to rake here in the Southeastern US. Magnolia trees shed year-round, so leaves are always available. A web site describing the laboratory, including photos, should be accessible by Dec. 1 at the following URL: http://eoeml-www.gtri.gatech.edu/lab/goathouse.html Please feel free to contact me via email if I can answer any specific questions. _____________________________________________ Annie R. Pearce, Research Engineer Georgia Tech Research Institute Electro-Optics, Environment, and Materials Laboratory Safety, Health, and Environmental Technologies Division Atlanta, GA 30332-0837 Phone: (404) 894-8089 Fax: (404) 894-2184 annie.pearce@gtri.gatech.edu http://eoeml-www.gtri.gatech.edu/lab/apearce.html _____________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 28 15:39:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA03773 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:39:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA26244 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:39:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21711; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:35:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:31:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21408 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:30:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin58.mail.aol.com (mrin58.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.168]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21404 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:30:53 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin58.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA17446; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:34:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:34:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971128153427_1794415484@mrin58.mail.aol.com> To: abest@direct.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco Footprint for Residential Buildings Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 642 In a message dated 11/27/97 7:23:04 PM, you wrote: << And, I am looking for like a set of simple, generic, ecological specifications for residential construction. Any thoughts? Andrew Best>> Hi Andrew, I've taken down, reused or moved a fair number of buildings over the years. The easiest by far were walk-in coolers and world war two vintage barracks that were assembled from stress skin insulated panels with keyed connectors. After that, I'd say that heavy timber buildings with either bolted joints or pegged mortice and tenon joints. - Terry Brennan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 28 19:44:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA09286 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 19:44:06 -0500 (EST) From: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA09211 for ; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 19:43:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28384; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 19:39:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Nov 1997 19:35:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA28047 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Nov 1997 19:34:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 19:34:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711290034.TAA28047@solstice.crest.org> To: jabrams@vineyard.net, greenbuilding@crest.org cc: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@valley.net Subject: Re: GBlist: Electric cooking Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 643 John Abrams asked: >Does anyone have any experience with fast acting electric ranges and/or > >cooktops? Does such a thing exist? We're looking for non-combustion > >cooking appliances that would satisfy cooks who are currently wedded to > >gas? Any intelligence would be appreciated. > Thanks, > >John > and Marc Rosenbaum added: >Hello David - > >Did you see the post by John Abrams asking for quick response (that is > >gas-like) cook tops? Any suggestions? > >Thanks > >Marc I know at least two clients who have used halogen burner stoves with Corningware-like tops with great success. One client is extremely chemically sensitive and also sensitive to electromagnetic fields. The other client is a world-renowned author of books on healthy diet and ecological living. The burner becomes hot almost instantly, glowing brightly to indicate it is hot. When turned off, it cools down much more quickly than a standard electric coil burner. The cooktop is easy to keep clean, because there are no open burners or spaces for burned or overflowing food to collect. I believe this type of cooking surface requires absolutely flat-bottomed cook ware in order to transfer the heat effectively to the food. The culinary drama of sparks and flames jumping up from a bold saucier's flamboyant wielding of a sizzling pan is missing, but many of the other advantages appear to be intact. I have never tested electromagnetic fields or electrical fields on such stoves. I have never examined energy-efficiency data comparing halogen burners to standard electric stoves or gas stoves. I also have no information on longevity, service issues, or practical ergonomics with these stoves. If there are other issues about resource efficiency or environmental responsibility of the manufacturers, I don't know what they are. Despite the advantages fuel efficiency of gas cooking, I am wary of the many problems of combustion byproducts and indoor pollution from using open flame in an indoor environment. Adequate exhaust ventilation without adequate makeup air can cause life-threatening backdrafting of other combustion appliances and can cause troublesome pressure differentials in buildings. If you ever use a combustible gas detector (sniffer) anywhere around a gas kitchen range (while cooking or while idle) you will undoubtedly detect significant levels of unburned gas fuel, carbon monoxide, or other toxic gases--particularly just before the gas flame ignites and for an extended period of time after the flame is turned off. My ideal solution to the problem you pose, John, is a sealed combustion gas range. Energy efficiency is combined with clean air. Years ago, I read something in one of Jorg Ostrowki's publicity brochures about how he always specified sealed combustion gas stoves. I'd be interested to hear if Jorg ever actually road tested one of these puppies! Following is a report of the limited information I was able to gather about sealed combustion gas ranges. Mention is made in two publications I found concerning sealed combustion gas ranges. First is "The Green Home: Planning and Building the Environmentally Advanced House," a book by Wayne Grady, published by Camden House Publishing, Buffalo, NY, 1993. Mention is made of a project of the Canadian Gas Research Institute to develop a sealed combustion gas range for "Waterloo Region Green Home." The second publication is a booklet called, "Waterloo Region Green Home," describing a public demonstration of energy efficiency and environmental responsibility in new housing, 1993. This booklet is published under a grant from Union Gas Limited and Ontario Ministry of Environment and Energy, sponsored by a variety of public and private agencies and industries in Ontario, Canada. After several short-circuited attempts to reach people in Canada who were familiar with this experimental project, I finally was able to talk at some length with Tony Joseph of the Canadian Gas Research Institute, 55 Scarsdale Road, Don Mills, ON M3B 2R3, (416) 447-6465, extension #304. Another man in the same office who had experience on the project is Robert LaFontaine, same number, extension #309. Mr. Joseph informed me CGRI had been negotiating with Southern California Gas Co. to set up product development of sealed combustion ranges for manufacture in the retail market. Last year Southern CA Gas backed out of the agreement, because of severe staff and budget cuts in a major reorganization (apparently in the face of gas industry de-regulation). The project is not dead, but unlikely to produce sealed combustion stoves for the retail market any time soon. There is a European outfit evaluating the potential market for these stoves. One major U.S. appliance manufacturer is still in negotiation with CGRI for development of the product, engineering, market studies, and possible future production. (Mr. Joseph was not at liberty to divulge which company this is, but said since there are only three, it should be easy to deduce). CGRI has a limited joint development program with this company. They are trying to get the final product to fit a price point of $100 to $150 over standard retail kitchen range prices. Work in the field so far has been able to get the difference only down to about $250, considering all the practical details. Mr. Joseph mentioned that there have been well over one thousand inquiries about sealed combustion ranges during the last year. This would indicate there is a market for them--especially if they can achieve the desired price point. The sealed combustion range CGRI developed for Waterloo Region Green Home is a standard gas range was fitted with a standard ceramic top from an electric range. The modifications necessary to make this work involved closing off the combustion area of the stove from the room, adding a combustion air inlet tube into the back of the stove from outdoors, adding an exhaust tube and small electric fan to circulate exhaust air back outside (containing all the combustion by-products, unburned fuel, etc.), a small heat exchange coil to recycle the heat from the exhausted stale air back into the incoming combustion air (keeping the two air streams separate and distinct), with very few additional adjustments. This may seem simple, but after talking with Mr. Joseph, I am aware that the engineering calculations and complicated subtleties are in a league well beyond the average stove repair shop or handy person--hence I do not recommend a do-it-yourself approach for homeowners. Heat from the flame does not act upon cooking vessels quite as fast as open gas flame (nor does the stove surface cool off quite as fast as an open flame, when extinguished). However, this action is faster than an electric stove or even a halogen burner. The fuel efficiency of these stoves is about the same as for open gas flame stoves. The slight negative pressure in the combustion compartment does not hinder efficiency or cooking quality. Problems encountered: It takes quite a long time for the surface of the stove to achieve a high enough surface temperature to show a radiant glow (making it difficult to discern whether or not a burner is actually turned on). A potential enhancement of this situation can be achieved by using a lower thermal mass cooking surface like shot glass, instead of ceramic. I suggested using the heat of the flame with a thermocoupler to generate a low voltage electrical current to illuminate an indicator light. He said they thought of this, but all such ideas end up being more high-tech complications, adding to the total retail cost. The main effort is to achieve energy efficiency, high Indoor Air Quality, and affordable retail prices. Another potential problem is that there is no thermal protection for the glass top. I am not exactly sure what this means. Exact specifications (by which a manufacturer or clever mechanic might be able to produce such a stove) are not available at this time. CGRI's project is proprietary. They are a non profit company which sponsors grants for some utilities (like Union Gas and Consumers Gas) and others for constructive purposes. The limited license held by certain parties of the current agreement prohibits divulging this information. Combustion by-products from burning open flame gas stoves with natural gas fuel, or even more critically with propane gas fuel, contain amounts of unburned gas fuel (and may have gas leaks), carbon monoxide, oxides of nitrogen and sulfur, as well as emissions of radon gas (not consumed by flame, but released into the air) and other noxious fumes. Consequently people with chemical sensitivities, asthma, respiratory disease or immune system compromise are not advised to allow exposures to open flame gas combustion appliances like stoves, water heaters or furnaces. Water heaters and furnaces can be outfitted with sealed combustion burners and/or can be placed in remote locations away from habitable rooms in a residence. Gas stoves, however, expose the resident directly through the breathable air of the room. The best precaution for anyone who cooks with gas is to always use an exhaust fan hood over the stove (downdraft exhaust is less effective, but better than nothing) every time the flame is lit--even when just boiling tea water. The fan should be left on at high speed for a while after the flame is extinguished. Gas pilot lights are a waste of fuel and give off noxious combustion by-products 24 hours a day. Electronic ignition (or a hand operated lighter tool) is safer as well as more fuel-efficient. I recommend the use of electric stoves for anyone with multiple chemical sensitivities (MCS). Electromagnetic fields (EMFs) are present while operating the burners or oven, but if you stand over 4 feet away while the bulk of the cooking is being done, you can pretty well avoid the hazards of chronic exposure to EMFs. Newer generation halogen burners are slightly more efficient than standard electric stoves. Halogen burners heat hod or ceramic surfaces more quickly than electric induction coils, heating up and cooling down more quickly as do open flame gas burners. Because the enamels, plastic parts, insulation materials and electric wiring in new stoves may emit noxious fumes, especially when hot, I recommend finding a used stove in good condition. If possible, avoid "continuous cleaning" oven surfaces. "Continuous cleaning" ovens may emit toxic fumes when heated and are so abrasive to touch, they are virtually impossible to clean by conventional means. "Self-cleaning" ovens achieve such hot temperatures while in the cleaning mode, they can pose hazardous threats by offgassing as well. The best system is to use a normal manually cleanable oven and to clean it only with baking soda. You make a paste of baking soda with a little water and apply it thickly to a greasy, dirty oven. Let it stand all night and it will rinse right off the next day--very little elbow grease required! Rinse well with a wet sponge several times, because a residue of baking soda may remain on the oven surfaces. Always have an exhaust fan vent hood, exhausting to the outdoors, installed on any stove. Humidity, burned spills, and cooking odors can then be captured and exhausted to avoid fungi as well as unpleasant or noxious odors. If anyone reading this is able to fill in any of the blanks or has further information, I'd be pleased to hear about it. For a long time now, the idea of a sealed combustion gas stove has seemed to me to be an extraordinary example of how "energy efficiency" criteria can be balanced cooperatively with "indoor air quality" criteria--rather than pitting these two issues in opposition to one another. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant Editor, ADPSR Architectural Resource Guide and Database 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone/fax: 510-841-1039 email: IAQKibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 29 00:56:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA15311 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 00:56:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA09053 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 00:56:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA05886; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 00:52:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 29 Nov 1997 00:47:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA05654 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 00:47:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (mail.bigpond.com [139.134.5.225]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA05649 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 00:47:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ma-a02-pool-190.tmns.net.au (ma-a02-pool-190.tmns.net.au [139.134.95.190]) by teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id qa218728 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 15:50:20 +1100 From: "Brian Woodward" To: , Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: embodied energy Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:49:29 +1100 Message-ID: <01bcfc8a$8f0531e0$905f868b@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 644 A detailed article that goes into the pros and cons of many different insulation materials was published in the January 1995 issue of Environmental Building News. The complete article is available on-line at: http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Features/Insulation/Insulation.html The following is part of this article: Embodied Energy It surprises a lot of people to learn that a state-of-the-art, energy-efficient, passive-solar house built today may consume less heating and cooling energy over 30 or even 50 years of operation than was required to build it. This means that if our society wants to continue the impressive gains that have been made over the past 20 years in reducing energy use, we will need to focus attention on embodied energy as well as operating energy. Embodied energy is the energy required to produce and transport materials. If two insulation materials insulate equally well and other manufacturing impacts are comparable, the one with lower embodied energy is environmentally preferable. While the embodied energy of insulation materials is usually quite low compared with the energy a given amount of insulation will save over its lifetime, it is nonetheless important. My experience confirms this. I live in a two storey passive solar mudbrick house which has no air conditioning and yet max indoor temps do not exceed 25degC even when outside temps are as high as 42degC. With no heating inside temps do not go below 12degC even when outside temps are as low as -6degC (we usually have a wood stove going which heats water, cooks food as well as heats the house for two months of the year) With a conventional designed house, with little thermal capacity, and relying on fossil fuel to maintain indoor temperature levels, then embodied energy does not play as significant a part as lifetime operating energy. Passive solar design with high thermal mass works well in some climates, but I accept it does not suit all climates. Brian Woodward, Earthways, Australia. Qualified Architect -specialising in and living with Sustainable Technologies, Low Cost, Owner Built, Passive Solar, Loadbearing Mudbrick construction, Composting Toilets, and Solar Electricity. -Overseas Aid Work in Nepal and South Africa. -Earthways Sustainable Lifestyles Resource Center, Wollombi, N.S.W. Australia. e-mail brianwoodward@bigpond.com Webpage(under construction) www.users.bigpond.com/nsw9999 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 29 08:47:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA23109 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 08:47:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA16271 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 08:46:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11805; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 08:42:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 29 Nov 1997 08:38:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11559 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 08:38:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA11555 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 08:38:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA02602; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 08:42:11 -0500 Message-id: <1486580@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 29 Nov 97 08:47:28 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Electric cooking To: IAQKibbey@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 645 Thanks for the thorough response. You have somewhat confirmed my sense that, once sealed, gas cooktops will not offer the cook any faster response than halogen-type - though I have no experience with halogens. Any brand name recommendations on halogens? Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 29 12:12:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA27103 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:12:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19745 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:12:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16413; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:01:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15951 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:01:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15947 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:01:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5.carleton.ca [134.117.136.25]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA22211; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:03:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id MAA20429; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:03:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:03:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199711291703.MAA20429@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Kooking with Kibbey Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 646 on Fri, 28 Nov 1997 IAQKibbey@aol.com wrote: Re: Electric cooking [ good information ] > if you stand over 4 feet away while the bulk of the cooking > is being done, you can pretty well avoid the hazards of > chronic exposure to EMFs. This would suggest to me that Mr. Kibbey either has *very* long arms ... or a taste for terribly over-cooked cuisine. WRT the latter, it is de-bait-able as to which would be more deleterious to one's health... it or EMF exposure. -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 29 23:14:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA08543 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:14:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA26988 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:14:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29593; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:38:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:34:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA28977 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:34:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28972 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:34:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.21] (blf21.acadia.net [205.217.217.21]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA21851 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:38:32 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:36:49 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Electric cooking Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 647 >Does anyone have any experience with fast acting electric ranges and/or >cooktops? Does such a thing exist? We're looking for non-combustion >cooking appliances that would satisfy cooks who are currently wedded to >gas? Any intelligence would be appreciated. > >Thanks, > >John Dear John, Try investigating halogen cooktops. I understand that they're fast, and control of the heat output is closer to gas than conventional electric cooktops. - David Foley > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 29 23:14:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA08548 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:14:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA27007 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:14:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29604; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:39:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:35:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA28988 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:34:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28984 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:34:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.21] (blf21.acadia.net [205.217.217.21]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA21855 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:38:36 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:36:53 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 648 Quote: I've heard that you must use a special type of detergent in horizontal machines that is much more expensive than what's normally on the shelves here in the U.S. so you actually don't save anything on detergent. End of quote. This isn't so. It's important to a low-sudsing detergent, and to use less detergent than with vertical axis machines. In fact, at least one manufacturer (Asko) recommends that you use NO detergent for the first three washes, if you've been using a vertical axis machine - the residual detergent in your clothes will be enough. Re Marc's comment on European machines having only a single water inlet (cold only): on a recent job, we piped hot and cold lines to a single feed pipe, with valves which allow the homeowner to switch between a hot or cold fill for the machine. Not elegant, but it works. - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 29 23:14:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA08554 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:14:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA27025 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:14:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29591; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:38:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:34:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA29003 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:34:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28998 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:34:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.21] (blf21.acadia.net [205.217.217.21]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA21859 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:38:39 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:36:56 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: embodied energy Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 649 I second Chris Neurath's comments that lifetime energy consumption of the building - the total area under the curve, if you will - is more important than the embodied energy of building materials - up to a point. For me, that point is reached when deciding between methods of achieving excellent energy performance in a building. If two materials provide the same energy efficiency, obviously we should choose the material with less environmental harm. I believe that minimizing natural habitat destruction is equal to energy efficiency as a goal for Green building. Often, embodied energy is an indicator of the habitat destruction associated with a given building product. (Not always, of course - wood has low embodied energy but often has high habitat destruction associated with it.) My point is that once we agree upon energy efficiency as a goal of Green building, then we should compare the environmental costs of achieving that efficiency. I think we all know this, but sometimes it bears repeating. - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 29 23:14:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA08559 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:14:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA27030 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:14:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA27028; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:53:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:49:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA26791 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:49:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26787 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:49:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.3] (1Cust3.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.3]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA21446; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:53:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711300053.QAA21446@germany.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Fumigation / Tenting Date: Sat, 29 Nov 97 16:56:39 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: , "Green Building" cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 650 > "Common Sense Pest Control," by Olkowski, Daar, and Olkowski, The Taunton >Press, Newtown, CT, 1992, pp. 420 - 465. They outline a very thorough >description of the identification, habitat, and life cycles of all known >species. You can see an online description with table of contents in the Iris Catalog . It's a fantastic book! Bruce S -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 29 23:15:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA08563 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:14:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA27038 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:14:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA26564; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:33:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:29:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA26258 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:29:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin86.mail.aol.com (mrin86.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA26254 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:29:14 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin86.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id TAA00793 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:32:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:32:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971129193250_1071985086@mrin86.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: SAMALEK@aol.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Fumigation / Tenting Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 651 In a message dated 11/29/97 2:03:22 PM, Safwat Malek wrote: >Can anyone recommend an alternative to this: >I am working with a termite company on a home I am buying in Los Gatos, CA. >Part of their report is to Fumigate the home. When I asked if there is an >alternative to the fumigation such as "micro waving the infested area in the >attic which is not easily accessible, they said that "micro waving does not >work as the termites come back within a short period of time. > >I appreciate your feedback > >Safwat Malek Safwat, I suggest the following reading for alternative treatments for dry wood termites and other wood boring insects. "Common Sense Pest Control," by Olkowski, Daar, and Olkowski, The Taunton Press, Newtown, CT, 1992, pp. 420 - 465. They outline a very thorough description of the identification, habitat, and life cycles of all known species. They describe treatments using heat, freezing by liquid nitrogen, electrogun, barrier methods and biological controls, as well as least-toxic chemical treatments. Many of these treatments are actually more long-lasting than standard toxic Methyl Bromide tenting treatment. Often, by isolating the specific location of infestations, a limited and targeted response is better than tenting and treating the entire building, endangering the health of the occupants for an undisclosed period of time to follow. "The IPM Practitioner," 9 (8): 1-5, by C.F. Forbes and W. Ebeling, published by BIRC, Berkeley, CA, 1987. An article describing methods used to test the effectiveness of heat against a wide range of pest insects, including drywood termites, carpenter ants, cockroaches, and fleas. It includes data on specific temperatures that kill various insect species. You can also contact the Alameda County (CA) Urban Runoff Clean Water Program, 399 Elmhurst St., Hayward, CA 94544, 510-670-5543. Also contact Bio Integral Resource Center (B.I.R.C.), P.O. Box 7414, Berkeley, CA 94707, (510) 524-2567. For a nominal membership fee, they can make the latest articles and literature available to you or consult over the phone. Look in the phone book for the nearest branch of Isothermics Corp., or Tallon Termite & Pest Control Co.--practitioners using least toxic or alternative methods. In Berkeley, is Doug Carver at Live Oak Structural--an alternative pest control operator and licensed structural pest control contractor. (510) 524-7101 Good luck, David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant IAQKibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 29 23:15:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA08570 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:15:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA27042 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:14:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22928; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:58:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:54:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22666 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:54:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin58.mail.aol.com (mrin58.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.168]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22662 for ; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:54:28 -0500 (EST) From: SAMALEK@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin58.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA27928 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:58:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:58:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971129165804_2073232459@mrin58.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Fumigation / Tenting Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 652 Can anyone recommend an alternative to this: I am working with a termite company on a home I am buying in Los Gatos, CA. Part of their report is to Fumigate the home. When I asked if there is an alternative to the fumigation such as "micro waving the infested area in the attic which is not easily accessible, they said that "micro waving does not work as the termites come back within a short period of time. I appreciate your feedback Safwat Malek Enviro International Architects / Builders E-mail: samalek@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 30 07:06:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA18509 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:06:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA16751 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:06:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA09429; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:01:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Nov 1997 06:57:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA09185 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 06:57:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA09181 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 06:57:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.99.54]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA1271 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:14:54 +0000 Message-ID: <3481562F.4F616F4E@which.net> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:04:00 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 653 David M. Foley wrote: > Re Marc's comment on European machines having only a single water > inlet > (cold only): on a recent job, we piped hot and cold lines to a single > feed > pipe, with valves which allow the homeowner to switch between a hot > or > cold fill for the machine. Not elegant, but it works. It is very unususal these days for a European washer to have only a cold inlet. I think you would have to ask specially for that. Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 30 07:24:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA18778 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:24:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA19162 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:24:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA09816; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:20:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:16:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA09596 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:16:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA09592 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:16:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.99.54]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA1936 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:33:43 +0000 Message-ID: <34815B5F.8D66EF01@which.net> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:26:09 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: exhaust air to water Heat Pump X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 654 Elizabeth White wrote: > The Solmate used an ice water storage tank to achieve greater thermal > storage. Another good idea never commercialised. Can I ask what an ice water storage tank is?Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 30 07:39:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA19031 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:39:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA21135 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:39:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA10206; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:35:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:31:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA09942 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:31:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA09938 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:31:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.99.54]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA2490 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:48:17 +0000 Message-ID: <34815ECB.8724D4C1@which.net> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:40:44 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: average electrical consumption in Europe X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 655 Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Here is a very interesting response to the above.In our area it is > 9,000-10,000 kWh/year for the average 2.5 person family. I can only offer personal data. In a 2400 ft2 4 bedroom home in the UK with 2 people and gas space and water heating, we have used 4500 kWhr of electricity in the last year.Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 30 07:42:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA19079 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:42:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA21469 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:42:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA10382; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:37:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:34:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA10098 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:33:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA10094 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:33:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.99.54]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA2604 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:51:19 +0000 Message-ID: <34815F80.CA9B0800@which.net> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:43:44 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: average electrical consumption in Europe X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 656 > > W. De Groote > >> E STER, Gent, Belgium > >> Living in one of the 100 most energy-efficient houses in this part > of > >> Europe, with an annual power consumption of approx. 900 kWh per > year. Can you give a brief outline of how such a low figure is achieved? Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 30 11:01:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA23282 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:01:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA23017 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:01:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14312; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 10:57:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Nov 1997 10:52:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14064 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 10:52:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14060 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 10:52:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip18.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.37]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA141 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:08:17 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971130110128.0071952c@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:01:28 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Fumigation / Tenting In-Reply-To: <971129165804_2073232459@mrin58.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 657 At 04:58 PM 11/29/97 -0500, you wrote: >Can anyone recommend an alternative to this: >I am working with a termite company on a home I am buying in Los Gatos, CA. >Part of their report is to Fumigate the home. When I asked if there is an >alternative to the fumigation such as "micro waving the infested area in the >attic which is not easily accessible, they said that "micro waving does not >work as the termites come back within a short period of time. I'd be skeptical over the use of microwaves... high enough wattage to fry the critters would ignite nails, wiring, and other metals in the beam. Low enough wattage to disrupt their equilibrium is hard to achieve because you'd need a biophysicist to find the right frequencies. Sounds like you're up against the BIC-man syndrome. "Because I Can" types will refocus all their energies down an avenue that is appealing based on their effort, and a sense that science is counterintuitive. In most cases, results are appalling and blamed on the experts. There may be natural aromatics and herbal-like remedies that arise from the integrated pest management crowd. If memory serves, Virginia Tech has a good website covering the topic. They were mostly into crop protection, but someone there should be interested in your type of problem. Then again, liberal use of chemicals are known to do the trick... ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 30 12:38:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25212 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:38:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA11334 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:37:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16455; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:33:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:27:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16145 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:27:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16141 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:27:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.120] (ka3-203.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.203]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id MAA00444 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:31:35 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 01:17:46 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Speireag Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA16142 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 658 Hallo, all. Very interesting discussion. Could someone take a moment to educated a beginner? What is a horizontal-axis washing machine, and how does it manage to wash and dry a load without unloading? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Ma 's e ur toigh le, sgrìobh thugam anns a' Ghàidhlig agus tapadh leat airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 30 12:53:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25767 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:53:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA13125 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:52:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16946; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:48:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:45:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16714 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:44:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16710 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:44:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.247] (1Cust247.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.247]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA06678 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 09:48:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199711301748.JAA06678@italy.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 09:52:17 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 659 > Very interesting discussion. Could someone take a moment to educated a >beginner? What is a horizontal-axis washing machine, and how does it >manage to wash and dry a load without unloading? You can see an introduction at Follow the link to Appliances. Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 30 13:51:41 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA27000 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:51:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA23609 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:51:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19160; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:47:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:43:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18890 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:42:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18886 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:42:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.18] (mke-1-2.binc.net [208.142.229.18]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA12872; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:46:50 -0600 Message-Id: <199711301846.MAA12872@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 12:57:14 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 660 Our Asko (vintage 1996) has a cold only water inlet, and it's own electric water heater, capable of heating the water to 205 degrees F. I find it to be more efficient than piping hot water from our gas fired water heater 40' away, and I find the temperature to be most desirable, esp. when washing our 9 month old's diapers... Chris Koehn Top ridge It is very unususal these days for a European washer to have only a cold inlet. I think you would have to ask specially for that. Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 30 14:16:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA27603 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:16:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA28086 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:15:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20237; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:11:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:07:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19931 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:07:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin58.mail.aol.com (mrin58.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.168]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19927 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:07:07 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin58.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA20096 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:10:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:10:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971130141043_1794613603@mrin58.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Heat exchange refrigerators Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 661 Responding To Andy Shapiro's inquiry about heat exchanger adapted refrigerators. I recall students at Brown University Urban Environmental Lab rigging together old refrigerators, car radiators, etc. when we were building the lab in the late seventies. Don't recall if they ever finished, or the results. Contact Harold Ward at Brown University Urban Environmental Lab. He may recall the results of those endeavors. May even be using one. Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 30 16:13:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA29876 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:13:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA19601 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:13:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24096; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:08:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:04:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23750 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:04:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from sweden.it.earthlink.net (sweden-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23745 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:04:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust252.tnt8.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.23.252]) by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA03919; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:08:36 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3481D603.55B2@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:09:23 -0800 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, SAMALEK@aol.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Fumigation / Tenting References: <971129165804_2073232459@mrin58.mail.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 662 SAMALEK@aol.com wrote: > > Can anyone recommend an alternative ... I'll echo David Kibbey, who recommended you speak with Doug Carver in Berkeley (510 524-7101). Doug has been working closely with Dr Vernard Lewis, and Entomologist at UC Berkeley who has set up a termite-infested building at the Richmond Field Station and is trying a range of treatments to test the many claims. The number I have for him is 510 642-5565. Doug and Vernerd worked with me some years back on a frustrating beetle infestation and I learned some about the many "alternative" treatments out there. The microwaving seems to work on water, not metals, and the little critters inside the walls get boiled. Trouble is, it is a slow process. They use a rectangular transmitter (something like 16" x 6") which needs to do 3 minutes before moving along. We figured that it would cost something like $30,000 to do the entire house in question. There is another outfit in the San Jose area which uses an electro-gun set-up. Doug says it looks a bit like a Buck Rodgers contraption. It shoots a current through the walls and fries living things. Rain gutters and flashings of course prevent total coverage. Both these seem good for localized and limited infestations. There are other techniques, such as freezing or baking the bugs out, but there are serious problems of messing with the finishes of the house from these. Good luck. Seth Melchert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 30 23:23:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA06855 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:23:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA13662 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:22:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04721; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:23:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:19:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04371 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:18:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04363 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:18:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-04.topher.net [208.199.183.210]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA17929 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:13:40 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199712010113.TAA17929@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: Subject: GBlist: Washing Machine Summary Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:23:38 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 663 First let me say THANK YOU to all of you (and there were many) who took the time to answer my inquiry on washing machines. That one simple question is still resonating various responses. My wife (Elena) has the pleasure of working out of our home and occasionally provides input to the list. I'm still trapped in the corporate world and barely have time to scan the postings, but I do enjoy reading them. Our top 3 washing machine hunting criteria are 1) reliability, 2) energy efficiency, and 3) life-cycle cost. I usually get good reliability information from Consumer Reports, but they have only tested a couple of horizontal-axis machines. Several of you confirmed the Consumer Reports data on the poor reliability record of the Frigidaire models. Most of you with other h-axis machines reported generally good results. I have an engineering background and with the great amount of information that is available on the web I am able to compare energy efficiency features and calculate them for our particular situation. We get 80% of our hot water from solar and we only use about 2900 gal/month in water for which we already pay only the minimum monthly fee to the town. This makes my payback calculations skew toward a conventional machine. There is some benefit to the h-axis machine using less detergent, and as some of you have pointed out not all of them require a special detergent. Despite the payback calculation, we have decided to get a horizontal axis machine and further reduce our water and energy use. We're down to a couple of candidates with the Staber 2000 leading the pack. There are several engineering and design features that we like, plus I like the fact that it is made by a smaller US company. We try to support innovative firms when possible. I got one very nice testimonial on the Staber and if anyone else is interested I have listed a couple of web sites to check for more information. I also like that it is designed to be easily maintained by the homeowner. Thanks Again, Paul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 30 23:23:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA06873 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:23:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA13668 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:22:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03183; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:00:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:56:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA02398 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:56:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA02385 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:55:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.115] (pm0a15.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.115]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA12474; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:59:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:59:57 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <347F1747.1E84@frontier.net> References: <9711261642.AA00784@us7rmc.bb.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Barry Goldberg From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 664 Regarding Barry Goldberg's comments about Frigidaire products, we have one of the new Frigidaire H-axis washers and (after less than six months) we are very satisfied with it. This machine replaced a White Westinghouse H-axis washer that we had had for about six years--this was the only U.S.-made H-axis washer for many years. We were not very satisfied with the White Westinghouse washer. The motor eventually burned out and was going to cost $300 to replace. Our experience was not unusual, according to "Consumer Reports." White Westinghouse is a part of Frigidaire, which is now wholly owned by the European company Electrolux. Bringing European engineering into the company has been beneficial I think. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News >I would caution folks about Frigidaire products. In general they don't >make good quality machines. I haven't seen or heard anything on their >front loader to change my mind. GE is the same way, maybe worse. > >Barry Goldberg > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 30 23:23:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA06893 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:23:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA13703 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:23:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01180; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:41:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:37:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA00771 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:37:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from neptune.olympus (neptune.imagen.net [204.244.138.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00767 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:37:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ss9.imagen.net by neptune.olympus with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id XRKGBTRP; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:42:20 -0800 X-Sender: elizwhite@mail.imagen.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:40:36 -0800 To: malcolm.scott@which.net From: elizwhite@saltspring.com (Elizabeth White) Subject: Re: GBlist: exhaust air to water Heat Pump Cc: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 665 >Elizabeth White wrote: > >> The Solmate used an ice water storage tank to achieve greater thermal >> storage. Another good idea never commercialised. > >Can I ask what an ice water storage tank is?Malcolm Scott The ice water storage tank was the storage component of a prototype residential integrated mechanical system which consisted of the ice water storage tank and a hot water tank with a heat pump connecting the two. Heat exchange coils transferred heat from exhaust ventilation air and from grey water to the ice water, warming it. The heat pump extracted heat from the ice water, making it colder, and tranferred it to the hot water tank, which was used for DHW and space heating. Space cooling was from the ice water tank. An elegant solution for low energy houses, at least in theory, with one piece of equipment providing heating, cooling, DHW and ventilation. (The cooling side, if large enough, could be used for the fridge too.) If one was looking for 'black box' solutions, this would have been a good one. __________________ Elizabeth White, Sustainable Housing Solutions 171 Vesuvius Bay Road, Saltspring Island, B.C. V8K 1K3 voice: (250) 537-2616 fax:(250) 537-2681 email: elizwhite@saltspring.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 30 23:23:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA06915 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:23:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA13723 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:23:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00078; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:08:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:04:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA29829 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:04:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA29825 for ; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:04:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from dvd.ampsc.com (dvd.ampsc.com [207.102.161.106]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA19648; Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:17:01 -0800 Message-ID: <3481FFE4.864@ampsc.com> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:08:04 -0800 From: Richard Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 666 My pleasure, the Horizontal Axis machines has it's axis parallel to the ground, as apposed to a Vertical Axis machine, which has it's axis perpendicular to the ground. The Horizontal Axis machines that combine washing and dryer cycles, do not require moving the wash load to another machine to become the dryer load. Simple enough? Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 1 11:45:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA22474 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:45:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA07926 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:45:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02623; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:41:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:36:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02154 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:36:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin44.mail.aol.com (mrin44.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02144 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:36:11 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin44.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA28240; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:39:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:39:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971201113948_509257968@mrin44.mail.aol.com> To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Re: embodied energy Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 667 In a message dated 11/29/97 10:48:20 PM, you wrote: <> David, I'm with you on this. The trick is doing it. How do I compare habitat loss or alteration, with climate change, with rare species loss, with the long term effects of hormone mimic dispersal? Somehow, putting a dollar value on the marginal utility of the last pristine mountain stream (like I learned in graduate school) just doesn't do it for me. It's hard enough to follow the money, much less predict environmental change and the effects environmental change will have on humans and non-humans. I'm interested in other folks thoughts on this one. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 1 13:09:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA25611 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:09:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA01257 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:09:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07131; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:04:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:57:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06628 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:57:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV (dcsmtp.wictok7.epa.gov [161.80.160.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06624 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:57:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 01 Dec 1997 12:51:06 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 12:14:46 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Green Schools -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 668 EPA has recently published a short report called "Schools + GHPs = Savings & Efficiency" and set of 6 case studies about the use of geothermal heat pumps in schools. They are free, and may be obtained through our hotline at 1-888-782-7937. That only covers the energy side of the green equation, of course. __________ Contact Information: --PLEASE NOTE NEW PHONE NUMBERS-- Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs U. S. EPA - 6202J 401 M Street, SW Washington, DC 20460 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epamail.epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html __________________________ >>> "Jorg D. Ostrowski" 11/27/97 02:32pm >>> As part of a client's potential interest in an environmentally responsible school, could someone please give me some contacts, e-mails, precedents, references of work already completed? I remember some discussion of a strawbale Waldorf Schule and another California (?) school. I am familiar with Greg Allen's Boyne River school, but need more and varied examples to fortify the client's appetite. Thanks. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 1 13:47:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA27037 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:47:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA12003 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:46:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08820; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:42:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:38:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08395 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:37:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.k12.vt.us (pop.k12.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08390 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:37:56 -0500 (EST) From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Received: from VDHVAX ([159.105.135.2]) by pop.k12.vt.us (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-12124) with SMTP id AAA191 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:54:02 -0500 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:36:30 -0500 Message-Id: <97120113362994@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Green Schools Reply X-VMS-To: SMTP%"greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 669 For a "from the ground up" story, you might try Caty Boone (612/864-1575), who is the project manager for the "Whittier School" in Hennepin County, MN. They have taken a stab at green school design, and seem to have done a pretty good job. (I believe they're working on a report of the design process, the decisions made, and the school itself.) There are two more "green" schools in the Twin Cities metro area that are starting the design process about now (in Onaka??), and the Boscawen school in NH has been occupied for about 7 months now. (For information--including a couple of marketing brochures--on the Boscawen school, try contacting the Turner Group, ttgme@hlturner.com, (603) 228-1122.). Very interesting design, including natural lighting (without overdoing the glass), IAQ, and consideration given to mainenance. Mike Rogers mrogers@vdh.state.vt.us OR rogers.michael@epamail.epa.gov 802/651-1864 P.S. Also, from the greenbuilding list archive: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Schools From: Michael Wood-Lewis Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:36:35 -0500 From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 22 10: 41:23 1997 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org For information about "green" school design, contact the State of Maryland Department of Education: Division of Business Services School Facilities Branch 200 West Baltimore Street Baltimore, MD 21201 410-767-0098 410-767-0431 fax It has published Technical Bulletins on sustainable school construction. Michael Wood-Lewis Environmental Program Director 202-626-2455 direct wood-lewis@pti.nw.dc.us Public Technology, Inc. 1301 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20004-1793 202-626-2498 fax 800-852-4934 http://pti.nw.dc.us >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: To: RTPMAINHUB.INTERNET("cek@mailgate.nyserda.org") Date: 1/21/97 11:56pm Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #142 In a message dated 12/7/96 I posted a response (quoted in part here) to Lisa McManigal's question about sustainability plans in cities: The Materials/Indoor Air Quality Standards Committee and Energy Design Standards Committee jointly produced a Policy, approved by the Berkeley, CA Unified School District on June 15, 1994. I was a member of the Materials/ Indoor Air Quality Standards Committee. This Policy set out definitions, implementation guidelines, glossary, and references for all construction projects within the school district, both for new building and renovation projects. Design teams were prequalified by an oversight committee at that time. If you are interested in reading this 21 page policy, I can send it to you for the cost of copying and mailing. I believe these guidelines are helpful as a model for other school districts to understand and implement sustainable, healthy school building design and construction practices. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 voice or fax: 510841-1039 IAQKibbey@aol.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Nicole Capretz To: Lois Arkin Date: 4/29/97 11:17am Subject: Re: GBlist: Public School SD Case Stgudies I work at Ralph Nader's office and have been involved with two projects that might help you out. One is the Government Purchasing Project, which encourages the government to be an environmentally responsible consumer. That project puts out a publication called Energy Ideas, and our most recent edition called Energy Smart Schools tracks successful energy conservation iniatives in schools (aka lots of case studies). This include case studies on passive and active solar design. I will be happy to send you a copy. A good resource we used for EI is a comprehensive book called Blueprint for a Green School, by the Center for Environmental Education. They are in your area and can be reached at 917-747-8200. They would probably want to get involved. Also, Green Seal has a publication called the Campus Green Buying Guide. You can get a copy of that by calling (202) 331-7337. The other project I'm working on is called the Wood Reduction Clearinghouse, which aims to reduce the use and waste of wood. We are putting together a guidebook on wood use reduction strategies for public officials, and in doing research I came across a good technical bulletin put out by the Maryland State Dept. of Education called Building Ecology and School Design. The bulletin helps schools incorporate environmentally sound practices into building decisions and includes some material recommendations. I can also send you a copy of that, if you like. That is all for now, but please feel free to email or call (202-387-8030) me back and tell me what you would like sent to you and how I can be of further help. - Nicole Nicole Capretz, Essential Information >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com To: RTPMAINHUB.INTERNET("greenbuilding@crest.org") Date: 1/30/97 3:42pm Subject: Re: GBlist: Schools Craig Kneelands writes: I've been reading this digest since early December and don't remember seeing anything about green schools. Are there any readers with experience in sustainable design in public schools? There is a project (Franklin High School) featured in Texas Architect 1/2 1996 that incorporates passive solar design, provisions for rainwater harvesting and graywater usage, local materials, and water- and energy-efficient fixtures. The unusual part is that bids came in under budget by $1.2 million. The architect is Stanley & PSA Inc., Joint Venture Architect, El Paso. The project Architect is Lars Stanley from Austin. doug hope this helps. -mr ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 1 21:01:14 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA09707 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:01:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA24083 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:00:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA29087; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:56:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:51:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA28605 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:51:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28601 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:51:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from eei.org by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: mail.eei.org [204.254.108.2]) id QQdsct09377; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:55:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from WPDomain-Message_Server by eei.org with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:01:37 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 14:57:24 -0500 From: Harvey Sachs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: Green schools Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 670 Our web site, , has about 7 schools case studies that can be downloaded. Our report RP-026 has more detailed information on a couple of schools, and our RP-024 has operating and maintenance cost data from a study of 25 commercial buildings including 15 schools. All can be requested on-line or by calling 1-888-ALL-4-GEO. Not to mention the marketing video, VT-901... Since we are a non-profit advocacy group and do not charge for these reports, I hope this is not taken as commercial, but informational. Harvey Sachs, Technical Director ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 1 21:01:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA09711 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:01:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA24090 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:00:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA29097; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:56:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:50:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA28563 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:50:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin44.mail.aol.com (mrin44.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28559 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:50:35 -0500 (EST) From: SOLAR783@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin44.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id UAA13468 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:54:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:54:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971201205413_-939047003@mrin44.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #457 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 671 This question is to David Foley: I read your response about embodied energy and being I have done a great deal of research on this topic, I would like to know how you came about that wood is low on the embodied energy spectrum. Do you mean such as vigas, or latillas? in the peeled pole section? or timber which still falls into the milled lumber category. Or are you also considering milled dimensional lumber, and sawnwood, and particle board, and other wood products? The Stein Partnership and the DOE did an extensive study of embodied energy in construction as well as my own thesis that looked at rammed earth, adobe and wood frame construction in residential construction and wood is one of the highest forms of energy consumerism. This of course is all relative to what type of energy production is related and the type of power plant supplying the energy, or if locally then what type of machinery and fuel required. Looking forward to knowing more. Candace Gossen Solar7.83 2323 SE Tamarck Portland, Oregon 97214 503-236-0915/fax 238-6607 email Solar783@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 1 21:19:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA10036 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:19:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA29111 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:18:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA00023; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:14:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:10:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA29776 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:10:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin83.mail.aol.com (mrin83.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.193]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA29772 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:10:40 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin83.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA06860 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:14:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:14:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971201211418_-1003891089@mrin83.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Re: embodied energy Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 672 Terry Brennan's comments get to the heart of the embodied energy debate. Without a somewhat different economic valuation system, I fear we will be preaching to the choir and nipping at the edges for a very long time. For some time, I've been trying to compose a diatribe on some new definitions of private property that I feel will be necessary to enable a democratic and environmentally sustainable economics. Probably won't be much harder to achieve than when Lincoln proclaimed owning people to be somewhat less than acceptable just a little over a century ago. A couple paragraghs to give a taste of what I am trying to say: The primary economic tool needed to develop and maintain a society which can be long sustainable in harmony with our earths resources, will be a tax or fee policy which recognizes the rights of all humanity to the benefits gleaned from further depletion of the resource base of the planet. Such a tax policy would effectively recognize the "ownership" rights of all citizens and of future generations in pricing any resources to be consumed or despoiled. The determinant of value for such a tax or valuation policy is best described in the principal of "embodied potential". Much like the potential energy of elementary physics, embodied potential is a measure of the stored potential future value of a resource. Once utilized that potential can be recycled many times perhaps, but generally in a path of increasing entropy. Without additional inputs of energy or other virgin resources, the embodied potential of a resource decays with usage over time. The speed of that decay and the time it would take the planet to regenerate the resource, along with the existent economic value created by scarcity, would all figure into the embodied potential valuation of a resource. .......................................... The most unsettling questions of this new democratic economics will be in determining who sits in judgement in placing value on our common resources. While this issue is by no means un-challenging, we can surely develop progressive controls based on embodied potential economic valuation and the ecological limits to the rights of property holders, which are at least as refined as the regressive and degenerative government programs and controls now in place. We hardly protest government policy which merely assuages the most flagrant violations of our common interests in order to preserve and extend the life and power of our current wasteful and unjust system. Today our government regulates polluters, insurance companies, banks, communication and the practice of professions and trades. It sets utility profits, auto gas mileage standards, import quotas and education requirements. It enforces building codes, transportation safety requirements and tariffs on trade. It funds scientific research, arts and the education of the vast majority of our children. Either directly or indirectly it provides for the economic livelihood of well over half the population. It has dominated our economy with an extraordinarily inefficient and wasteful military industrial complex, two continuous decades of federal budget deficits and a multi-trillion dollar debt. The tax system is a Byzantine injustice to every citizen. Surely we can tolerate rational intrusions based upon a philosophy of sustainable democratic economics. End of that taste: back to just a guy typing off the top of is head: Now, those of you that know me know that I have turned into a raging free market libertarian type nut. The trick we in environmental arena have to learn is how to set up a level playing field and then let the players play without extraneous rules and regulations. Don't regulate the hell out of everything, lets try to promote new rules of the game and keep them to a minimum. Once economic values are in line with our human and global values, most of the oppressive environmental crap that the business community is always fighting will be unnecessary and we can all be going in the same direction. Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 1 21:47:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA10967 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:47:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA07553 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:47:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA00877; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:42:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:38:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA00558 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:38:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA00552 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:38:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from van-52-0945.direct.ca [204.174.253.189] by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.70 #1) id 0xciIY-00046u-00; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:42:54 -0800 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Cc: Subject: GBlist: Re: sealed combustion gas stoves Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:40:43 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 673 > David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant > Editor, ADPSR Architectural Resource Guide and Database > 1618 Parker Street > Berkeley, CA 94703 > phone/fax: 510-841-1039 > email: IAQKibbey@aol.com You Asked: > I'd be interested to hear if Jorg ever actually road tested one of these puppies! > Following is a report of the limited information I was able to gather > about sealed combustion gas ranges. > > Mention is made in two publications I found concerning sealed combustion gas ranges. First is "The > Green Home: Planning and Building the Environmentally Advanced House," a book by Wayne Grady, > published by Camden House Publishing, Buffalo, NY, 1993. Mention is made of a project of the > Canadian Gas Research Institute to develop a sealed combustion gas range for "Waterloo Region > Green Home." The second publication is a booklet called, "Waterloo Region Green Home," describing > a public demonstration of energy efficiency and environmental responsibility in new housing, 1993. > This booklet is published under a grant from Union Gas Limited and Ontario Ministry of Environment > and Energy, sponsored by a variety of public and private agencies and industries in Ontario, Canada. > I'm impressed with your research effort. There were six prototype stoves of the type you described made in 1993. In addition to the Waterloo Green Home, the BC Advanced House here in Vancouver, and the Innova House in Ottawa also used these units. These were all part of the 9 house Advanced houses demonstration project of a few years ago. The reason for the large public response may be because of all the attention these houses attracted. The Canadian Gas Research Institute was the body that did the development work, with the hope/expectation of being able to license the technology. > The sealed combustion range CGRI developed for Waterloo Region Green Home is > a standard gas range was fitted with a standard ceramic top from an electric > range. The modifications necessary to make this work involved closing off > the combustion area of the stove from the room, adding a combustion air > inlet tube into the back of the stove from outdoors, adding an exhaust tube and > small electric fan to circulate exhaust air back outside (containing all the > combustion by-products, unburned fuel, etc.), a small heat exchange coil to > recycle the heat from the exhausted stale air back into the incoming > combustion air (keeping the two air streams separate and distinct), with > very few additional adjustments. Unfortunately, the first prototype units were just that. The CGRI worked on the ceramic glass tops and controls, but not too much attention was given to other elements. The power consumption was very high because of the fan motors they used (to induce drafts). So the net effect was strictly a case of removing the open consumption from the indoor air. However, there is still the element of the oven, which is the standard open oven flame. In these units, the oven was power vented, which is another reason for the high power consumption. The cooking performance was essentialy no different than an electric stove. In our house (the BC Advanced House) the stove was in place only during the year the house was open for display, so it did not get normal use - just a bit of testing and demonstration use. I understand that there were thermal shock problems with the ceramic glass top in the Waterloo house, where the home purchasers had a chance to live with the stove in a real life situation (and hence the stove was put through the trial of real life). Simply put, the glass cracked several times. > Combustion by-products from burning open flame gas stoves with natural gas > fuel, or even more critically with propane gas fuel, contain amounts of > unburned gas fuel (and may have gas leaks), carbon monoxide, oxides of > nitrogen and sulfur, as well as emissions of radon gas (not consumed by > flame, but released into the air) and other noxious fumes. This of course is the big issue why one would consider sealed combustion. > The best precaution for anyone who cooks with gas is to always use > an exhaust fan hood over the stove (downdraft exhaust is less effective, > but better than nothing) every time the flame is lit--even when just boiling > tea water. The fan should be left on at high speed for a while after the > flame is extinguished. This point can't be stressed enough. Proper ventilation with necessary [ever wonder how come codes require gas fireplaces with a 24,000 - 36,000+ BTU log to be vented, but a gas range, with 4 burners churning out 36,000+ BTU doesn't?] BC Gas (the local gas utility) was one of the sponsors of the BC Advanced House. One of the tests they wanted to see done was just what the impact was on the indoor air quality of the gas range, and how effective the range hood fan was, so tests were done using both the sealed combustion range, and a conventional gas range (which was installed for the tests). I don't have the report handy, but the results were surprising, in that the rangehood (a reasonably good quality, but mid-range, commercially available unit properly installed) was very effective at removing contaminants. ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seymour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 1 22:12:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA11446 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:12:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA14473 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01645; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:03:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01360 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:03:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01355 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:03:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.16] (blf16.acadia.net [205.217.217.16]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA23462 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:07:24 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:05:40 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #457 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 674 >This question is to David Foley: > >I read your response about embodied energy and being I have done a great deal >of research on this topic, I would like to know how you came about that wood >is low on the embodied energy spectrum. Do you mean such as vigas, or >latillas? in the peeled pole section? or timber which still falls into the >milled lumber category. Or are you also considering milled dimensional >lumber, and sawnwood, and particle board, and other wood products? > >The Stein Partnership and the DOE did an extensive study of embodied energy >in construction as well as my own thesis that looked at rammed earth, adobe >and wood frame construction in residential construction and wood is one of >the highest forms of energy consumerism. This of course is all relative to >what type of energy production is related and the type of power plant >supplying the energy, or if locally then what type of machinery and fuel >required. > >Looking forward to knowing more. > >Candace Gossen >Solar7.83 >2323 SE Tamarck >Portland, Oregon 97214 >503-236-0915/fax 238-6607 >email Solar783@aol.com Dear Candace, Actually, I'm looking forward to knowing more. You've obviously researched embodied energy more than I have. In stating that wood has a relatively low embodied energy, I meant in comparison to other "standard" building materials, such as reinforced concrete, steel, brick and masonry, glass, aluminium, plastics, etc. My point in the message I posted was that embodied energy is often a clue to the habitat destruction involved in creating the material. In the case of wood, there may be far more habitat destruction involved than embodied energy would indicate. This was in the context of a discussion that the embodied energy of materials becomes important only after one has achieved low energy consumption for the lifetime of the building. It would be great if you could post some data from your thesis research comparing the embodied energy of the various materials you cited, as well as any others you have studied. Thank you. - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 1 23:56:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA13637 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:56:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA16120 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:56:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04867; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:52:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:47:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA04629 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:47:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA04625 for ; Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:47:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id XPK19281; Mon, 01 Dec 1997 23:50:46 EST To: pwest@topher.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machine Summary Message-ID: <19960307.035947.2079.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199712010113.TAA17929@mail.topher.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4-8 From: environs.com@juno.com (BEVERLY A WEITER) Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 23:50:46 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 675 I noticed no one mentioned the new machines from Maytag, dubbed Neptune. The video and info they just sent me looks very promising. Since this is a new concept from them I guess it is untested in the "real world" but Maytag has always been a very good, reliable company. Any thoughts out there? Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL 33433 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 04:58:25 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA19535 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 04:58:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA25387 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 04:58:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA11273; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 04:53:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 04:49:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA11040 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 04:49:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA11034 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 04:49:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (1Cust121.tnt7.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.122.121]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA10270; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 01:53:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19971202045251.007bb3b0@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: wliebold@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 04:52:51 -0500 To: environs.com@juno.com (BEVERLY A WEITER), pwest@topher.net, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Warren Liebold Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machine Summary In-Reply-To: <19960307.035947.2079.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199712010113.TAA17929@mail.topher.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 676 The Maytag Neptune has several advantages, including: * since it's the newest thing on the market, it is likely to be most technologically advanced/improved. * the tilted drum reduces the usual objection to horizontal-axis machines. Warren Liebold wliebold@earthlink.net At 11:50 PM 12/1/97 EST, BEVERLY A WEITER wrote: >I noticed no one mentioned the new machines from Maytag, dubbed Neptune. >The video and info they just sent me looks very promising. Since this >is a new concept from them I guess it is untested in the "real world" but >Maytag has always been a very good, reliable company. Any thoughts out >there? > >Beverly Weiter >Environs Interiors >Boca Raton, FL 33433 >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 05:48:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA20543 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 05:48:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA07861 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 05:48:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA12551; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 05:43:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 05:40:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA12282 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 05:39:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.swec.com (cliff.swec.com [199.103.216.36]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA12277 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 05:39:46 -0500 (EST) From: malcolm.scott@stoneweb.com Received: from bos10.swec.com (bos10.swec.com [199.103.216.37]) by cliff.swec.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA20039 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 05:43:09 -0500 Received: by bos10.swec.com with VINES-ISMTP; Tue, 2 Dec 97 5:45:22 EST Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 10:45:08 GMT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: re: Re: GBlist: Washing Machine Summary X-Incognito-SN: 525 X-Incognito-Version: 4.10.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 677 What is the usual objection to horizontal axis machines? Malcolm Scott The Maytag Neptune has several advantages, including: * since it's the newest thing on the market, it is likely to be most technologically advanced/improved. * the tilted drum reduces the usual objection to horizontal-axis machines. Warren Liebold wliebold@earthlink.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 08:39:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA25025 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:39:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA17194 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:39:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15717; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:30:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15482 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:30:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15477 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:30:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA28771 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:34:05 -0500 Message-id: <1509545@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 02 Dec 97 08:39:20 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Embodied energy of wood To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 678 --- You wrote: It would be great if you could post some data from your thesis research comparing the embodied energy of the various materials you cited, as well as any others you have studied. --- end of quoted material --- I hope that we can begin to compare embodied energy of entire equivalent buildings and not simply materials. Recently at EEBA in Denver, a paper was presented that looked at some of these issues. I thought it was fallacious from the start, because it began with a simple wood frame building and then changed the wall sections to methods such as straw bale. However, it didn't keep the interior dimensions of the house constant! If you tout straw bale or adobe or any fat wall section (including my own preference, dbl stud wood), you need to keep usable floor area constant. Then you must count in your embodied energy calcs the extra foundation and roof and exterior wall finishes that the fatter walls necessitate. And if the straw bale wall should have a two foot overhang, then that should be counted against the perhaps more modest overhang of the other building types. Finally, buildings of equivalent energy performance need to be compared, and this will vary by climate. When one puts their rammed earth or adobe house up in the heating climate portion of the US, and is looking for R-30 or more in the wall section, please count the insulation and whatever holds it there in the embodied energy calcs, too. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 08:46:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA25138 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:46:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA19104 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:46:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA16106; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:42:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:38:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15835 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:38:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15831 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:38:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA29136 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:41:52 -0500 Message-id: <1509645@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 02 Dec 97 08:46:58 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing machines To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 679 --- You wrote: The Maytag Neptune has several advantages, including: * since it's the newest thing on the market, it is likely to be most technologically advanced/improved. --- end of quoted material --- I understood last year from Emerson Electric, a major US motor manufacturer, that the Neptune is the first major user of their new switched reluctance motor technology, which is supposed to be very efficient and less costly than the ECM motors available in some residential space conditioning equipment, and may eventually replace AC motors with variable speed drives. I tried to get these new motors on a current project but it was too soon. The interesting thing about the Neptune is that, because it is a consumer item made by the tens of thousands, Emerson was able to get into production of this new technology sooner. The capital stumbling block was the electronics side of the motor. Anyone know more about this motor? Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 10:15:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27097 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:15:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA13763 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:14:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18868; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:10:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:06:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18490 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:06:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18483 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:06:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA88356; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:08:17 -0700 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:08:17 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: SOLAR783@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: burning wood vs gas, emission comparison In-Reply-To: <971114201910_326769035@mrin58.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAA18487 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 680 Further to the question of below, wood burning emissions were calculated based on lab tests of our TEMPCAST masonry heater (94% combustion, 64% thermal efficiencies - OMNI Labs), measured weight of wood burned, average natural gas consumption for the City of Calgary, and various contemporary sources for emission calculations of various fuels. If you can give me constructive feedback on my one-page summary sheet, I can fax it to you for your review and possible improvement. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 SOLAR783@aol.com wrote: > > This is an answer to the below cited conversation between Jorg and Malcom: > > Jorg: How do you derive at the equation of emitting 25% of the green house > gases that you neighbors do with natural gas. I would like to know of your > resources upon where you acquired the information about fuelwood. In my > research of embodied energy I have specifcially looked at Demand Side > Management of Power Plants, mostly on the coal fired power plant side, and > collected alot of data of actual air borne pollutants such as carbon > monoxide, co2, HC, PM, NoX, and So2. Granted the type of fuel source has > different percentages of the pollutants, as well as its size of production > whether it be local or grand scale power plant facilities. The biggest > concern with fuelwood consumption is its efficiency. Some wood stoves only > reach 6% of its conversion efficiency of the fuel wood value. Interested in > knowing more of your sources. > Thanks. > Candace Gossen > Solar 7.83 > 2323 SE Tamarack > Portland, Oregon 97214 > 503-236-0915/ fax 238-6607 > email Solar783@aol.com > > From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) > Subject: Re: GBlist: Net Carbon emissions issue & biomass > > > Jorg wrote: > we emit about 25% of the greenhouse gases by burning wood that any of > our neighbours do burning natural gas in their suburban plastic houses. > > I am a bit new to this and I was worried when I asked the question that > Jorg would take it as criticism, but the response has been really > interesting. However, I am having difficulty understanding any > difference between new and old CO2. Sequestration is surely simply the > conversion of CO2 to biomass. I can’t see that time comes into it. Do > I misunderstand sequestered? > > I have read somewhere that the quantity of solar energy arriving daily > is orders of magnitude greater than the consumption of fuels (fossil or > recent). I fondly imagine that large scale reforestation projects to > convert that energy could balance the consumption. > Jorg is hoping that he has enough land to plant sufficient trees to more > than balance his own consumption. I would also be interested to know > what area of forest is required to balance a given energy value of > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 10:23:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27339 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:23:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA15986 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19374; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:18:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:14:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19067 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:14:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19058; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:14:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust253.tnt3.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.32.253]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id JAA08567; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:23:32 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34832BAC.1E1A@gte.net> Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 16:27:08 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Schools References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 681 Jorg, Are you familiar with the new Environmental Studies Center at Oberlin College that was designed by Bill McDonough and Partners? It will have a living machine, classrooms, offices, auditorium, atrium, resource center, meeting room, and kitchen. I'm not sure if the project is on Bill's website yet, but if you want to check, try http://urban.arch.Virginia.EDU/Dean/ I also recall some impressive First Nation's schools designed in conjunction with UBC. Ray Cole should have info. Good luck and keep us informed about what you're planning. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 10:29:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27483 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:29:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA17782 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:29:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19858; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:21:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19555 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:21:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu (root@eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu [130.207.194.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19551 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:21:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [130.207.206.198] (apearce.gtri.gatech.edu [130.207.206.198]) by eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA02749 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:25:16 -0500 X-Sender: annie@eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:31:40 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Annie R. Pearce" Subject: GBlist: Georgia Tech Experiment in Teaching Green Building Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 682 To those who were interested in the Lessons Learned - Building with Clay information from Georgia Tech, the web site is now online and available for your perusal at http://eoeml-www.gtri.gatech.edu/lab/goathouse.html Please beware that the images at this site are somewhat large and may take a while to download. I need to reduce the resolution of the images to speed up the process - look for a faster site later in the week. Thanks for your interest, and please feel free to contact me if you have any questions. Annie Pearce _____________________________________________ Annie R. Pearce, Research Engineer Georgia Tech Research Institute Electro-Optics, Environment, and Materials Laboratory Safety, Health, and Environmental Technologies Division Atlanta, GA 30332-0837 Phone: (404) 894-8089 Fax: (404) 894-2184 annie.pearce@gtri.gatech.edu http://eoeml-www.gtri.gatech.edu/lab/apearce.html _____________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 10:39:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27735 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:39:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA20494 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:38:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20488; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:34:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:30:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20115 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:30:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu (root@eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu [130.207.194.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20109 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:30:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [130.207.206.198] (apearce.gtri.gatech.edu [130.207.206.198]) by eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA03639; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:34:42 -0500 X-Sender: annie@eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:41:06 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Annie R. Pearce" Subject: GBlist: Moisture problems in existing house Cc: pearcel@juno.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 683 Can anyone refer me to any sites or information dealing with moisture abatement in existing facilities? My parents have a 20 year old house built into a hillside which is fraught with springs, and they have an ongoing moisture problem in their basement. My mom is suffering from sick building syndrome resulting from mold & mildew in the basement, and they would like to investigate alternatives for fixing the problem. While plenty has been written about preventing moisture in new facilities, I'm having trouble finding information about rehabilitating existing facilities, particularly without demolishing part of the interior slab and installing new French drains. Their home has a full basement, used for a music studio, which is completely below ground level and set into a hillside. They have a shallow (i.e., 4 foot deep) french drain up-gradient from the house, and they painted bituminous waterproofing compound onto all exterior below-grade walls before back-filling 20 years ago. The house is located in Pennsylvania, has an 8" thick CMU foundation wall sitting on a 36" deep footing, and a 4" plastic perimeter drain installed at the base of the foundation wall. They also have extensive paving, i.e., a patio and swimming pool, up-gradient from the house, so uncovering the foundation wall would be completely disruptive and economically infeasible. Thanks in advance for your help! I enjoy lurking on this list.... Annie Pearce _____________________________________________ Annie R. Pearce, Research Engineer Georgia Tech Research Institute Electro-Optics, Environment, and Materials Laboratory Safety, Health, and Environmental Technologies Division Atlanta, GA 30332-0837 Phone: (404) 894-8089 Fax: (404) 894-2184 annie.pearce@gtri.gatech.edu http://eoeml-www.gtri.gatech.edu/lab/apearce.html _____________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 10:45:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27846 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:45:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA22116 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:44:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21000; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:40:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:36:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20612 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:36:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20607 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:36:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.25.64.243] (usr2a31.rut.sover.net [206.25.64.227]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA18236 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:40:18 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:50:01 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: GMX magnetic water (pseudo?)softeners Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 684 Hi folks, I posted a query a while back about GMX water softeners, which are sold with the claim that they can eliminate scaling and soften water, just by attaching some magnets to the water line. I know, sounds like the perfect hoax, but they are pretty convincing and I'm rather gullible, so I looked into it. I got back three responses, all very negative. I'm now convinced that the GMX is not worth spending any more money or time on. I'd be glad to forward the responses to anyone who cares to read them. Please e-mail me personally (NOT to the list!) if you're interested. Cheers! Nadav Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 10:56:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA28020 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:56:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA25303 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:56:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22171; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:51:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:47:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21545 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:47:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21540 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:47:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust253.tnt3.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.32.253]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id JAA12728; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:56:30 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34842F23.331F@gte.net> Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 10:54:11 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: malcolm.scott@which.net CC: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient References: <3481562F.4F616F4E@which.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 685 Malcolm, As I see you're in the UK, I was surprised by your comment that cold water only inlets are now unusual for washing machines. My experience in Germany and the Netherlands (only a year ago) was that cold water only inlets were the norm for both washing machines and dishwashers. Cindy Pollock Shea ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 11:00:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28074 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:00:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA26525 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:59:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22498; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:55:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:51:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22083 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:51:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22075 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:51:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust253.tnt3.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.32.253]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id KAA27983 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:00:19 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34843008.378A@gte.net> Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 10:58:00 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: average electrical consumption in Europe] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E92C231842" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 686 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E92C231842 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jorg asked me to share this message more broadly with the list. Cindy Pollock Shea --------------E92C231842 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 Message-ID: <3479A89E.63C1@gte.net> Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:17:34 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Subject: Re: GBlist: average electrical consumption in Europe References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jorg, As you probably know, Europeans don't usually have all the gadgets that North Americans find essential. Clothes dryers are rarities. Refrigerators and freezers are quite small and efficient. Front loading washing machines are more efficient and laundry is done less frequently. Dishwashers are still relative luxuries. Compact fluorescent and halogen lighting are common. Home computers are rare. Water heaters are small and appliance/faucet specific. Outdoor lighting is extremely rare. Living spaces are considerably smaller on a per capita basis. In the Netherlands, many people do not even have ovens. They get by with stove tops and perhaps a microwave. Garbage disposals are illegal because of high BOD in Germany and the NL. And baby monitors, multiple tvs, stereos and vcrs, and most electrical gadgets are virtually unheard of. Yet there is no sense of deprivation -- far from it. I'd say on average, people feel richer. Cindy --------------E92C231842-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 11:17:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28528 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA02104 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:16:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23336; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:12:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:08:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22935 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:07:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22927 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.141] (1Cust141.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.141]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA26443 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:11:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199712021611.IAA26443@italy.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Moisture problems in existing house Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 08:15:17 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 687 Anne Your parents have a severe problem. The first step is always to control the source and that seems impossible if there are springs running around the basement. Most below grade wall treatments "resist" dampness, but not flowing water. You may want to look into drainage panels that create a thin void next to the basement wall which allows water to flow down to footing drains. This relieves the hydrostatic pressure against the basement wall. You can find a number of these products by searching REDI for "basement drainage." For what it's worth, we sell a book through the Iris Catalog called Moisture in Atlantic Housing. You can see a description and table of contents on our web site: www.oikos.com/irisinfo/catalog/ Good Luck Bruce >Can anyone refer me to any sites or information dealing with moisture >abatement in existing facilities? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 11:22:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28711 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:22:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03746 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:22:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23723; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:17:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:14:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23423 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:14:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from sweden.it.earthlink.net (sweden-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23419 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:14:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust72.tnt7.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.20.72]) by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA10236; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:18:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <348434FE.18FB@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 08:19:10 -0800 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nadav Malin CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: water (pseudo?)softeners References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 688 Nadav Malin wrote: > > Hi folks, > > I posted a query a while back about GMX water softeners... On a remotely related note, I've heard of these ceramic discs that are meant to replace detergents altogether. Drop one in the washing maching and somehow it softens the water (or ionizes it or something) and dirt just dissolves off. At $100 apiece, I would be reluctant to take the risk, but over time it would be highly cost effective. Hoax or innovation - does anyone know? Seth Melchert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 13:12:21 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA01729 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:12:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA04719 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:11:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28985; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:07:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:02:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA28532 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:02:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA28526 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:02:36 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NvC24595; Tue, 02 Dec 1997 13:05:22 EST To: nadav@ebuild.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:39:41 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: GMX magnetic water (pseudo?)softeners Message-ID: <19971202.121441.6414.0.sbtauto@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,7-45 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 689 Well their marketing sure works. My neighbor (a plumber) is making a killing selling these things. They sell for hundreds of dollars but basically it is another pyramid scheme. I found a similar product (looks identical) in the winter issue of the Brookstone Hard to Find Tools catalog (page 68, part number 213959) for $40.00. I briefly thought about ordering one and trying it out (what's $40?). Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:50:01 -0500 Nadav Malin writes: >Hi folks, > >I posted a query a while back about GMX water softeners, which are >sold >with the claim that they can eliminate scaling and soften water, just >by >attaching some magnets to the water line. I know, sounds like the >perfect >hoax, but they are pretty convincing and I'm rather gullible, so I >looked >into it. > >I got back three responses, all very negative. I'm now convinced that >the >GMX is not worth spending any more money or time on. > >I'd be glad to forward the responses to anyone who cares to read them. >Please e-mail me personally (NOT to the list!) if you're interested. > >Cheers! Nadav >Environmental Building News > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 13:35:47 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA02355 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:35:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA11777 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:35:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00630; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:31:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:27:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00207 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:26:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00201 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:26:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust115.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.115]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id MAA22367 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:35:55 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34845476.7E9C@gte.net> Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 13:33:26 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: water softeners Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 690 Dear Greenbuilders, Our water softener is dying a fast death and needs to be replaced quickly. Our water is hard -- 13 grains -- and there's build up on the dishes and fixtures, not to mention what we can't see on the pipes. The valve stem and body are broken, the resin is depleted, and the leak is getting worse on our 1982 model. Is there anything you can recommend beyond going to Sears and buying a new Kenmore. I hate to ask, but after an unexpected new roof and other repairs, the financial drains associated with this house are becoming too large for comfort. Thanks for any assistance you can provide. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 15:14:05 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA04948 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:14:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA08925 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:13:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05394; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:09:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:05:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05057 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:05:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net (denmark-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05051 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:04:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.217] (1Cust217.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.217]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA01517 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:09:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199712022009.MAA01517@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: water (pseudo?)softeners Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 12:12:29 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 691 Seth The Oregon Dept of Justice recently reached a settlement with the makers of a "magic" laundry orb. Although they admitted no wrong-doing, the State's test showed the device cleaned no better than plain water. This one was a sphere containing blue liquid, not the ceramic disk you mention. The pitch about "ionizing" or changing water chemistry was the same, however. Caveat Emptor! Bruce >On a remotely related note, I've heard of these ceramic discs that are >meant to replace detergents altogether. Drop one in the washing maching >and somehow it softens the water (or ionizes it or something) and dirt >just dissolves off. At $100 apiece, I would be reluctant to take the >risk, but over time it would be highly cost effective. > >Hoax or innovation - does anyone know? > >Seth Melchert -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 15:54:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA06134 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:54:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA20339 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:54:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA07398; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:49:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:45:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06932 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:45:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06926 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:45:30 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id POL24595; Tue, 02 Dec 1997 15:48:43 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 14:31:09 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Referral for a Ohio Builder Message-ID: <19971202.145836.10854.0.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,5-14 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 692 I have a client who wishes to build an earth material shelter (home) in the middle state Ohio region. Can someone please supply a referral to a builder in or near this region with experience or at least someone who is willing to erect this type of structure? Thanks for your assistance. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 15:56:05 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA06181 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:56:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA20806 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:55:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA07618; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:51:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:47:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA07049 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:47:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from arl-img-7.compuserve.com (arl-img-7.compuserve.com [149.174.217.137]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07045 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:47:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by arl-img-7.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.9) id PAA21638; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:49:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:48:55 -0500 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machine Summary To: Warren Liebold , "[unknown]" , "[unknown]" , BEVERLY A WEITER Message-ID: <199712021549_MC2-2A70-D1F@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA07046 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 693 Message text written by Warren Liebold >The Maytag Neptune has several advantages, including: * since it's the newest thing on the market, it is likely to be most technologically advanced/improved. * the tilted drum reduces the usual objection to horizontal-axis machines. Warren Liebold wliebold@earthlink.net At 11:50 PM 12/1/97 EST, BEVERLY A WEITER wrote: >I noticed no one mentioned the new machines from Maytag, dubbed Neptune. >The video and info they just sent me looks very promising. Since this >is a new concept from them I guess it is untested in the "real world" but >Maytag has always been a very good, reliable company. Any thoughts out >there? > >Beverly Weiter >Environs Interiors >Boca Raton, FL 33433< At EcoVillage at Ithaca we are using two Maytag Neptunes for thirty households for the past 4 months with nothing but positive results. (The single family equivalent usage would be roughly 15 times 4 months or five years worth of washes.) The design seems very solid and thoughtful. They really do get out stains. Greg Thomas ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 16:25:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA06998 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:25:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA29398 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:25:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09342; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:20:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:16:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA08912 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:16:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from pnl.gov (relay.pnl.gov [130.20.84.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08907 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:16:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from pnlmse1.pnl.gov by pnl.gov (PMDF V5.1-10 #21283) with ESMTP id <01IQP7CIC10W8X3I7S@pnl.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 13:20:16 PST Received: from ccmail.pnl.gov by pnlmse1.pnl.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id YCCG7V32; Tue, 02 Dec 1997 13:24:06 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ccmail.pnl.gov (IMA Internet Exchange 2.12 Enterprise) id 0035AC22; Tue, 02 Dec 1997 13:19:47 -0800 Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 13:12:58 -0800 From: ad_lee@ccmail.pnl.gov (Allen D Lee) Subject: Re[2]: GBlist: Washing Machine Summary To: environs.com@juno.com (BEVERLY A WEITER), pwest@topher.net, greenbuilding@crest.org, Warren Liebold Message-id: <0035AC22.4025@ccmail.pnl.gov> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-description: cc:Mail note part Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 694 I recently bought the Neptune washer and dryer and have been very pleased with both. The dryer did have a problem which Maytag quickly solved. The washer is very quiet and the soft whine when it's spinning is a pleasant reminder that it's very high tech. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machine Summary Author: Warren Liebold at -SMTPLink Date: 12/2/97 4:52 AM The Maytag Neptune has several advantages, including: * since it's the newest thing on the market, it is likely to be most technologically advanced/improved. * the tilted drum reduces the usual objection to horizontal-axis machines. Warren Liebold wliebold@earthlink.net At 11:50 PM 12/1/97 EST, BEVERLY A WEITER wrote: >I noticed no one mentioned the new machines from Maytag, dubbed Neptune. >The video and info they just sent me looks very promising. Since this >is a new concept from them I guess it is untested in the "real world" but >Maytag has always been a very good, reliable company. Any thoughts out >there? > >Beverly Weiter >Environs Interiors >Boca Raton, FL 33433 >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 17:59:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA09173 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:59:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA29058 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:58:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13921; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:50:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:46:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13358 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13354 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:46:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.3] (iplink3.crocker.com [205.246.4.3]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA22422 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:57:40 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:53:34 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Green Schools Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 695 Thinking about "green schools" really should go well beyond an accounting of how many nifty green features they incorporate. A school is ideally placed to educate, inspire,... and to change the way the world thinks. It also houses a set of activities that can (perhaps) be directed towards taking charge of the social ramifications of incorporating any "green features" ... as the following piece that I wrote for a current school client of mine seeks to promote. ******* "It is becoming increasingly apparent that buildings need to be more durable. They should be more independently productive of the energy and water that they need. They should last much longer than the projected supplies of cheap fossil energy. The buildings we build today will spend the greater portion of their lives in a completely different resource climate - one based upon renewable energy. Therefore, the responsible action is to make provision for this eventuality. Indeed, there is a great and growing need for examples of buildings that show how this can be achieved. Buildings can be vital places that produce their own energy, collect and cleanse their own water, turn their wastes into nutrients, produce food, filter daylight. They can be healthy, invigorating places in which to live and learn. A building that is made and maintained according to these principles will attract enormous attention. It will become a regional and national landmark. It will attract interest and support; it will help secure the future of the resident institution. A school building is the ideal candidate for such an exemplar. It is the center of a community's life, it is visited by young and old, and it leaves its strongest impression on those young lives that are most likely to be affected by the issues it seeks to highlight. A school building like this is a wonderful educational tool, not only for its faculty and students, but also for the world around it. Making and maintaining such a building is no easy task. It requires innovation at many levels, and it requires a thoroughly intergrated design and construction effort. Operating and maintaining such a building requires committed people to tend the operations that produce energy, collect and filter water, and cycle nutrients. ..Perhaps... the nature of the school will allow the operations of such a building to become embedded in the school curriculum. Students can use the building as a classroom, a laboratory, a canvas, and a workshop." That would be a really "green school" Bruce Coldham, Architect ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 17:59:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA09179 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:59:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA29083 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:58:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13930; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:51:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:47:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13371 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:46:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13365 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:46:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.3] (iplink3.crocker.com [205.246.4.3]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA22430 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:57:46 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:53:37 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Ground Source Heat Pump effectiveness Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 696 I've been a sporadic observer of the GSHP discussion, and I apologize it the following observation has already been made. We have most of the houses here in my small cohousing community served by these devices and I have observed a couple of things these past three years. Regarding their "green-ness" it is perhaps ironic that a good tight envelope seems to work *against* the GSHP to the extent that it is contributing to the domestic hotwater heating, and our installations do. In the heat of summer and the depth of winter we do very well (summer in particular when the cooling cycle gives us "free" hot water). During the swing seasons, when the GSHP in not operating we need DHW back-up ... and it is hard to avoid using electric resistance. If a house is especially tight and well insulated with moderately successfull passive performance, that swing season gets to be rather long .. and the cost of heating the DHW can just about equal the cost of space heating, cooling, and DHW for the winter and summer combined. Bruce Coldham, Architect ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 18:34:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA09990 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:34:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA10112 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:34:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16384; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:25:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA15907 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:25:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15901 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:25:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from frazer (ip196.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.196]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA10326; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:29:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971202232612.00720ab0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 18:26:12 -0500 To: "Annie R. Pearce" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Moisture problems in existing house Cc: pearcel@juno.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 697 Annie - we (ACHPA) are looking for a 'good' moldy house to have CBS News film a full diagnostic approach to the problem. CBS wants the full spectrum, sick house & occupants, doctors, whole house diagnostics, fix recommendations, etc.. Not knowing where your parents are, I am sure we can get the right people to test and evaluate - call (516/477-2922) or email me if you/they are interested. thanks, -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 18:34:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA10002 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:34:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA10214 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:34:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16489; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:30:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:26:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA15975 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:26:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15971 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:26:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from frazer (ip196.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.196]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA22077; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:29:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971202232619.0072cd74@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 18:26:19 -0500 To: sbtauto@juno.com, nadav@ebuild.com From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: GMX magnetic water (pseudo?)softeners Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 698 The best magnetic 'liquid realignment' story is from a guy at Brookhaven National Labs who was beta testing for the Oil Heat program. He was told they also clean auto fuel so he put them in his wife's car, which promptly had a engine fire several days later. BNL is still trying to figure out how one gets clean fuel oil to the burner. best, -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 19:24:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA11035 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:24:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA23048 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:23:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA18604; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:16:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:12:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA18051 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:11:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA18040 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:11:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA45332; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:14:11 -0700 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:14:11 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Cindy/Mike Shea Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: water softeners In-Reply-To: <34845476.7E9C@gte.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 699 Cindy: If your criteria for a water softener are similar to ours: 1) health 2) environment 3) space saving 4) least fuss/maintenance 4) whole house application and 6) political astuteness, then you may find our SALT-FREE water softener of interest.It basically reverses the process by which water becomes hard.Turns calcium bicarbonate into calcite which is the water softening agent. We do not have to pay 2X for those 5,000- 7,000 gal/year backwashing that salt water softeners require. No sodium, no corrosion. Works for us so far. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ___________________________________________________________________________ On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Cindy/Mike Shea wrote: > > Dear Greenbuilders, > > Our water softener is dying a fast death and needs to be replaced > quickly. Our water is hard -- 13 grains -- and there's build up on the > dishes and fixtures, not to mention what we can't see on the pipes. The > valve stem and body are broken, the resin is depleted, and the leak is > getting worse on our 1982 model. Is there anything you can recommend > beyond going to Sears and buying a new Kenmore. I hate to ask, but > after an unexpected new roof and other repairs, the financial drains > associated with this house are becoming too large for comfort. > > Thanks for any assistance you can provide. > Cindy Pollock Shea > Promoting Sustainable Development > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 20:00:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA11790 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 20:00:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA02940 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:59:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA20234; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:55:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:51:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA19949 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:51:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA19944 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:51:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (1Cust13.tnt5.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.117.13]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA24576; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:55:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19971202195512.007c6180@mail.earthlink.net> X-Sender: wliebold@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 19:55:12 -0500 To: malcolm.scott@stoneweb.com, From: Warren Liebold Subject: re: Re: GBlist: Washing Machine Summary In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 700 At 10:45 AM 12/2/97 GMT, malcolm.scott@stoneweb.com wrote: >What is the usual objection to horizontal axis machines? >Malcolm Scott > I think the objections are: * somewhat more expensive * front-loading requires kneeling, which means physical exertion * front-loading is associated with commercial machines; top-loading with residential machines? Warren Liebold wliebold@earthlink.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 21:26:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA13664 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:26:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA26277 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:25:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA22773; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:21:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:17:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA22479 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:16:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22474 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:16:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.20] (blf20.acadia.net [205.217.217.20]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA21294 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:20:59 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:19:16 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Embodied energy of wood Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 701 >--- You wrote: >I hope that we can begin to compare embodied energy of entire equivalent >buildings and not simply materials. Recently at EEBA in Denver, a paper was >presented that looked at some of these issues. I thought it was fallacious >from the start, because it began with a simple wood frame building and then >changed the wall sections to methods such as straw bale. However, it didn't >keep the interior dimensions of the house constant! If you tout straw bale or >adobe or any fat wall section (including my own preference, dbl stud wood), you >need to keep usable floor area constant. Then you must count in your embodied >energy calcs the extra foundation and roof and exterior wall finishes that the >fatter walls necessitate. And if the straw bale wall should have a two foot >overhang, then that should be counted against the perhaps more modest overhang >of the other building types. Finally, buildings of equivalent energy >performance need to be compared, and this will vary by climate. When one puts >their rammed earth or adobe house up in the heating climate portion of the US, >and is looking for R-30 or more in the wall section, please count the >insulation and whatever holds it there in the embodied energy calcs, too. > >Marc Rosenbaum Marc, I'm aware of two places in Europe which are attempting the kind of analysis you describe, where the environmental impact of total building assmblies is being considered, not just individual components. One place is the Norwegian Building Research Center in Oslo - Lars Myhre is the contact person. The other place is the Technical University of Delft, Netherlands, research being conducted by Kees Duvesteein and colleagues - they also work in the private sector, in an architecture firm called, I kid you not, BOOM. - David ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 21:32:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA13809 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:32:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA28109 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:32:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA23183; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:27:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:24:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA22899 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:24:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22895 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:23:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.20] (blf20.acadia.net [205.217.217.20]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA21767 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:28:08 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:26:24 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: water (pseudo?)softeners Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 702 > >>On a remotely related note, I've heard of these ceramic discs that are >>meant to replace detergents altogether. Drop one in the washing maching >>and somehow it softens the water (or ionizes it or something) and dirt >>just dissolves off. At $100 apiece, I would be reluctant to take the >>risk, but over time it would be highly cost effective. >> >>Hoax or innovation - does anyone know? >> >>Seth Melchert > > Real Goods used to sell these gizmos - call them and ask. Several neighbors have tried them. They said that their clothes got "sort of " clean. My impression was that they didn't work any better than washing in plain water, but my friends were reluctant to admit that they had been rooked out of a lot of $$$. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 22:04:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA14744 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:04:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA07285 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24328; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:59:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:55:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA23976 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:55:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA23972 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:55:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id UAA0000001132; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 20:59:09 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971203030113.006f84f8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 21:01:13 -0600 To: Nadav Malin From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: GMX magnetic water (pseudo?)softeners Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 703 Regarding the following from Nadav: "I posted a query a while back about GMX water softeners, which are sold with the claim that they can eliminate scaling and soften water, just by attaching some magnets to the water line. I know, sounds like the perfect hoax, but they are pretty convincing and I'm rather gullible, so I looked into it. I got back three responses, all very negative. I'm now convinced that the GMX is not worth spending any more money or time on." I am really interested in good solutions for hard water. Where we are its very hard and especially loaded with lime. I am looking into cistern solutions but find that even the least expensive (built with a home-built ferro cement container) are quite expensive and may not be worth the several thousands of dollars it costs to build the system. On the other hand a Culligan solution is out too--awful tasting water and too much salt. I would be interested in knowing what other (simple) suggestions there are? A friend suggested a negative (ion/ozone)water-softening system?? And what green alternatives are there to "Lime out"??? Regarding green solutions in general, I agree with the recent posting that suggested there are far too many 'gadgets' available to solve our various green building problems. Unless one takes on the task of setting up a personal experiment station as a residence, which is perfectly reasonable for those either in the business or simply interested enough to try it all, I would like to have system solutions that combine various tasks, are reasonably priced and won't require an engineer to check on to keep running. The recent posting revolved around the GFX invention, which sounds great but helps only in limited situations, ie when one is using the shower. I recognize that individual solutions are often prerequisite to the more general, but when one is looking for the practical these are interestingly academic only. I'm certainly not suggesting these ideas not be posted--in fact it is one of the reasons I look forward to reading my mail, but for our future living pleasure, I hope that the great minds out there work on combining these ideas into systems that are more general. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 2 23:01:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA17366 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 23:01:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA18147 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:44:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA26213; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:39:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:35:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA25929 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:35:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25919 for ; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 22:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust225.tnt3.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.32.225]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id VAA18342; Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:44:28 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3484D50F.51A3@gte.net> Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 22:42:07 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: water softeners References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 704 Jorg, Could you please tell me more about your salt-free water softener. I just explored your website -- very impressive -- but didn't find anything about your water softening system. I was pleased to see that your house is not only smart, but very attractive. The only surprise was the proximity of the other homes. From your postings I thought you were in a more rustic setting. Are you close to the University? I used to live on Range Way in Rangelands. Too bad we can't share gardening info. The Florida climate is requiring all new composting and gardening skills. Cindy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 03:00:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA21928 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 03:00:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA19185 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 03:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA03398; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:56:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:52:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA03120 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:52:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.swec.com (cliff.swec.com [199.103.216.36]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA03116 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:51:58 -0500 (EST) From: malcolm.scott@stoneweb.com Received: from bos10.swec.com (bos10.swec.com [199.103.216.37]) by cliff.swec.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA23567 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 02:55:20 -0500 Received: by bos10.swec.com with VINES-ISMTP; Wed, 3 Dec 97 2:57:47 EST Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 7:57:33 GMT Message-ID: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Washing Machines - Efficient X-Incognito-SN: 525 X-Incognito-Version: 4.10.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 705 Cindy I suppose I am only talking for the UK. The majority of machines in the UK are installed in kitchens with hot and cold water available. Water is mostly heated by gas or by overnight lower cost electricity. The machines on sale which are from all over the world are I suppose geared for this majority market. Malcolm Scott > >Malcolm, > >As I see you're in the UK, I was surprised by your comment that cold >water only inlets are now unusual for washing machines. My experience >in Germany and the Netherlands (only a year ago) was that cold water >only inlets were the norm for both washing machines and dishwashers. > >Cindy Pollock Shea ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 08:20:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA27008 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA17384 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:20:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09402; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:15:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:11:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09115 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:11:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from CLEMSON.EDU (mail.clemson.edu [130.127.28.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09111 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:11:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.clemson.edu ([206.240.183.38] (may be forged)) by CLEMSON.EDU (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA11640 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:15:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:15:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19971203081552.378f7c24@mail.clemson.edu> X-Sender: cdewitt@mail.clemson.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Craig DeWitt Subject: GBlist: Re: Washing Machine Objections Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 706 Warren stated that a possible objection to H-axis washing machines was that they required kneeling. I agree that they require bending over, but so do typical dryers. I offer a possible solution for the objection. Why not elevate either/both machines sightly so you don't have to bend over? (You could even put the hot water storage tank in this new space under the washer/dryer, if someone would design one to fit.) Of course, it would be nice to have controls along the front of the machines so you could reach them easily. Before the Neptune was available, our local newspaper ran an article with a picture of a man wheeling the "New" washer hidden under a tarp. I sent Maytag an E-mail about the machine, news article and picture, and said I hoped they included up-front controls so you could elevate it, so people with mobility impairments could make better use of them. (Ever try to reach the bottom of a V-axis washer tub from a wheelchair? Ever try to reach the controls across the top of a machine with back, shoulder or arm problems?) I got a quick phone call in reply, with a concern that the photo actually showed the new machine. But no concern for my more accessible, user-friendly design idea. Do any of the H-axis washers have controls across the front? I think the "accessibility" potential of the H-axis washers is a benefit people are overlooking. Craig DeWitt ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 08:29:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA27151 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:29:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA18915 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:28:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09833; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:24:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:20:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09584 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:20:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from nahbmail.nahb.com (nahbmail.nahb.com [207.242.95.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09580 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by nahbmail.nahb.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:23:02 -0500 Message-ID: <60E228BD0F61D111A8AC00A0C90CAFD103F1C9@nahbmail.nahb.com> From: "Morse, Peter" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Washing machines Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:23:01 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 707 As it happens, I am in the market for a washer and dryer right now. The space I have is such that I need to stack the two units, which appears to rule out the Maytag Neptune. (Their web site says that a stackable model will be available "next year"). Other than the Frididaire, are there other H-axis washers out there? And do Sears or Montgomery Ward have them in the showroom? Peter J. Morse (x278) Tel 202-822-0278 The views expressed are those of the individual sender and may not reflect the opinion or policy of the National Association of Home Builders, its officers or directors. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 09:30:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA28417 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:30:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA02808 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:30:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11568; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:22:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:18:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11292 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:18:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11288 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:18:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA34912; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:20:23 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 07:20:22 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Craig DeWitt Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Washing Machine Objections In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19971203081552.378f7c24@mail.clemson.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 708 Craig: Further to past discussions and your question of below, the controls are in front.Based on actual use for a number of years, I still prefer the combination unit to 2 single units (with their inherent deficiencies). _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Craig DeWitt wrote: > > Of course, it would be nice to have controls along the front of the machines > so you could reach them easily. > Do any of the H-axis washers have controls across the front? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 09:39:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA28562 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:39:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA04466 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:39:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12061; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:34:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:31:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11794 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:31:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV (dcsmtp.wictok7.epa.gov [161.80.160.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11790 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:31:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:23:40 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:20:01 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: water (pseudo?)softeners -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 709 I bought some (for about $40) and my wife and I disagree on how well they work. She thinks they don't do a thing, but I use them with about 10% the normal detergent and seem to have fine results. However, we may be just experiencing cleaning with the residual detergent in the clothes. Perhaps what we have learned is that you can clean with a lot less detergent (which, by itself, may have been worth the investment!) I have loaned them to two other people, both of whom seemed to think they did the job. In particular, my friend with the septic tank was pleased that by using less detergent he would be benefiting the septic system. Just one person's experience; I guess the jury is still out. Steve __________ Contact Information: --PLEASE NOTE NEW PHONE NUMBERS-- Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs U. S. EPA - 6202J 401 M Street, SW Washington, DC 20460 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epamail.epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html __________________________ >>> David M. Foley 12/02/97 08:26pm >>> > >>On a remotely related note, I've heard of these ceramic discs that are >>meant to replace detergents altogether. >>Hoax or innovation - does anyone know? >> >>Seth Melchert > > Real Goods used to sell these gizmos - call them and ask. Several neighbors have tried them. They said that their clothes got "sort of " clean. My impression was that they didn't work any better than washing in plain water, but my friends were reluctant to admit that they had been rooked out of a lot of $$$. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 10:08:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA29162 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:08:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA10780 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:08:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13370; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:03:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:59:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13044 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:59:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV (dcsmtp.wictok7.epa.gov [161.80.160.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13039 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:59:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:41:12 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:30:12 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT To: greenbuilding@crest.org, brucecol@crocker.com Subject: GBlist: Ground Source Heat Pump effectiveness -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 710 Several manufacturers make integrated or "triple function" geothermal systems that provide hot water on demand, not just while the unit is operating to heat and cool the home. (I believe at least HydroHeat and Water Furnace manufacture these--others may, too). I believe one or two manufacturers also make a dedicated hot water unit that can be installed alongside the GHP and hooked up to the same ground loop. You make a good point; the better we build our homes, the less important the heating and cooling loads become while the other loads gain in importance to the total energy use. For geothermal that allows for lower installation costs (a smaller ground loop), key to making the technology more competitive, but also can lead to the situation you describe. Steve O. __________ Contact Information: --PLEASE NOTE NEW PHONE NUMBERS-- Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs U. S. EPA - 6202J 401 M Street, SW Washington, DC 20460 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epamail.epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html __________________________ >>> Bruce Coldham 12/02/97 05:53pm >>> I've been a sporadic observer of the GSHP discussion, and I apologize if the following observation has already been made. . . . it is perhaps ironic that a good tight envelope seems to work *against* the GSHP to the extent that it is contributing to the domestic hotwater heating, and our installations do. . . . During the swing seasons, when the GSHP in not operating we need DHW back-up ... and it is hard to avoid using electric resistance. If a house is especially tight and well insulated with moderately successfull passive performance, that swing season gets to be rather long .. and the cost of heating the DHW can just about equal the cost of space heating, cooling, and DHW for the winter and summer combined. Bruce Coldham, Architect ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 10:30:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA29681 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:30:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA16095 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:30:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14419; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:20:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14115 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:20:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14103 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:20:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from eei.org by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: mail.eei.org [204.254.108.2]) id QQdsin26641; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:24:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from WPDomain-Message_Server by eei.org with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 03 Dec 1997 10:02:00 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:57:47 -0500 From: Harvey Sachs To: greenbuilding@crest.org, brucecol@crocker.com Subject: GBlist: Ground Source Heat Pump effectiveness -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 711 Bruce Coldham makes an important observation, but I would urge caution in interpretation. Coldham observes that in very well constructed houses that have ground source heat pumps with desuperheaters that provide hot water when the unit is running, there may be a counterintuitive outcome: more resistance hot water heating use. This can occur when the heat pump is used very little (swing seasons). We observe this in the well-constructed home of one of our staff, where the DHW bill is higher than the combined space conditioning bill. In energy terms, I expect this to be the case in many houses that are built right, since the building loads are easier to change than the people-influenced loads (going to horizontal washing machines is one step, but then there are all the little steps in shower duration...). Thus, even when resistance water heating is used with a desuperheater, I think that we will see an economic "win" on life cycle cost with the GeoExchange system. In part this is because the well-built house has such a small HVAC load that the incremental cost of the outside loop is small; and that is the real synergy. Wait: There is better news: At least one national manufacturer today offers a dedicated ground-source water heating unit, that should meet all the DHW demand (assuming a large storage tank). Atl least one other offers an integrated "full-demand" or "triple-function" unit that is specifically designed for properly constructed houses. When there is a call for hot water, the unit directs its full capacity to meeting that load, at a rate comparable to a gas water heater. When the water heater is satisfied, it goes back to work on the heating/cooling loads. In a well-built house, the "drift" of temperature is so slow that the lack of heat for a few minutes or a half hour or whatever just doesn't get noticed. We expect other manufacturers to come out with competitive products as the market develops. Harvey Sachs, Technical Director, Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium. >>> Bruce Coldham 12/02/97 05:53pm >>> I've been a sporadic observer of the GSHP discussion, and I apologize it the following observation has already been made. We have most of the houses here in my small cohousing community served by these devices and I have observed a couple of things these past three years. Regarding their "green-ness" it is perhaps ironic that a good tight envelope seems to work *against* the GSHP to the extent that it is contributing to the domestic hotwater heating, and our installations do. In the heat of summer and the depth of winter we do very well (summer in particular when the cooling cycle gives us "free" hot water). During the swing seasons, when the GSHP in not operating we need DHW back-up ... and it is hard to avoid using electric resistance. If a house is especially tight and well insulated with moderately successfull passive performance, that swing season gets to be rather long .. and the cost of heating the DHW can just about equal the cost of space heating, cooling, and DHW for the winter and summer combined. Bruce Coldham, Architect ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 10:55:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00220 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:55:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21985 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:55:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16138; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:50:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:46:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15364 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:46:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15350 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:46:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.153] (pm1a23.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.153]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA03253; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:50:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:50:27 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: water (pseudo?)softeners Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 712 Regarding these laundry disks, I recently attended the Austin Green Building Conference and stayed at Habitat Suites in Austin, a motel that promotes itself as being "green" (in fact, the motel complex was on the "green building tour" the previous year). Anyway, they sell these disks at the front desk, and they claim to use them for all the motel laundry. I didn't inquire as to the efficacy, but the fact that a motel uses them made me wonder if they just might be for real. I'd love to hear more about their experiences. If someone wants to pursue this, Habitat Suites can be reached at 512/467-6000, or e-mail at HabitatSte@aol.com. Dianne Cummings is the General Manager. I will send her a copy of this message and post any response to the list. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News >> >>>On a remotely related note, I've heard of these ceramic discs that are >>>meant to replace detergents altogether. Drop one in the washing maching >>>and somehow it softens the water (or ionizes it or something) and dirt >>>just dissolves off. At $100 apiece, I would be reluctant to take the >>>risk, but over time it would be highly cost effective. >>> >>>Hoax or innovation - does anyone know? >>> >>>Seth Melchert >> >> >Real Goods used to sell these gizmos - call them and ask. Several >neighbors have tried them. They said that their clothes got "sort of " >clean. My impression was that they didn't work any better than washing in >plain water, but my friends were reluctant to admit that they had been >rooked out of a lot of $$$. > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 10:55:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00233 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:55:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA22039 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:55:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16162; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:50:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:46:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15377 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:46:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15373 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:46:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.153] (pm1a23.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.153]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA03312; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:50:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:50:32 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19971203081552.378f7c24@mail.clemson.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Craig DeWitt From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Washing Machine Objections Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 713 Regarding controls on the front, our new Frigidaire H-axis machine has front controls. We purchased this after our old White-Westinghouse H-axis machined failed, specifically because the new machine can be stacked (in fact Frigidaire makes special clips so that our old W-W stacked dryer can be stacked on the new Frigidaire). The Neptune that is currently available has controls in the back (non-stacking), but they plan to introduce a stacking model (front controls) during 1998. I believe that most if not all of the other H-axis washers available have controls on the front to allow for stacking. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News >Warren stated that a possible objection to H-axis washing machines was that >they required kneeling. I agree that they require bending over, but so do >typical dryers. I offer a possible solution for the objection. > >Why not elevate either/both machines sightly so you don't have to bend over? >(You could even put the hot water storage tank in this new space under the >washer/dryer, if someone would design one to fit.) > >Of course, it would be nice to have controls along the front of the machines >so you could reach them easily. Before the Neptune was available, our local >newspaper ran an article with a picture of a man wheeling the "New" washer >hidden under a tarp. I sent Maytag an E-mail about the machine, news >article and picture, and said I hoped they included up-front controls so you >could elevate it, so people with mobility impairments could make better use >of them. (Ever try to reach the bottom of a V-axis washer tub from a >wheelchair? Ever try to reach the controls across the top of a machine with >back, shoulder or arm problems?) I got a quick phone call in reply, with a >concern that the photo actually showed the new machine. But no concern for >my more accessible, user-friendly design idea. > >Do any of the H-axis washers have controls across the front? I think the >"accessibility" potential of the H-axis washers is a benefit people are >overlooking. > >Craig DeWitt ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 10:57:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00268 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:57:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA22374 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:56:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16351; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:52:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:48:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15522 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:47:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15514 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5.carleton.ca [134.117.136.25]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21233; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:49:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id KAA02989; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:49:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:49:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712031549.KAA02989@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re:Embodied Energy of Wood Cc: cmhc004@cmhc-schl.gc.ca Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 714 on Tue, 2 Dec 1997 dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) wrote: Re: Embodied energy of wood (quoting Marc Rosenbaum) >> I hope that we can begin to compare embodied energy of >> entire equivalent buildings and not simply materials. DMF responded: > I'm aware of two places in Europe which are attempting the > kind of analysis you describe, where the environmental > impact of total building assmblies is being considered, not > just individual components. Hello David and GB-Heads; In 1995, CMHC published a user's manual (prepared by Sheltair Scientific) for a software program called "OPTIMIZE". The last time I mentioned OPTIMIZE to the list, an Murrican (Hal Levin, I think) mentioned that ver 3.1 was still undergoing beta testing and that it would be available to the public by Fall '96. Some excerpts from the manual: --- * --- "OPTIMIZE is a Canadian data base and spread sheet application for estimatiing the lifecycle energy, material flow, environmental impact and cost of residential buildings and assemblies " "In addition to the energy analysis, OPTIMIZE also ...quantifies outdoor and indoor air emissions ... ...facility exists to consider non-energy related emissions" ...calculates the total emission rates and concentrations for nine of the most prevalent VOC's" --- * --- The output is in the form : Page 1: "Energy Flows" with breakdown for embodied energy and operating energy for 8 (+ "other" fuel types). Page 2: "As-Built Embodied Energy by Commodity" with breakdowns for each of 50 materials, from sand to floor and wall coverings Page 3: "Life Cycle Embodied Energy by Commodity" (similar to above) Page 4: "Weight Breakdown by Commodity" for same 50 categories (as above) in terms of "As-built" and "Life Weight" Page 5: "Breakdown of Air Emissions and External Costs" Page 6: "Breakdown of Indoor Air Pollutants" Page 7: "Building Parameters" Histogram Page 8: "Maintenance Replacement Environmental Factors" in terms of Outdoor Emissions and $$$ costs. If someone has developed indices that enable one to evaluate factors like wildlife and habitat destruction, then it would seem that Marc would have nothing left to complain about. Eh ? The OPTIMIZE manual (and the latest information on its availability) can be requested by contacting the Canadian Housing Information Centre (CHIC) at Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp (CMHC) via e-mail at: cmhc004@cmhc-schl.gc.ca PS: I am not affiliated with CMHC in any way so don't ask me anything about the above. Okay ? -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 10:57:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00275 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:57:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA22472 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:57:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16432; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:52:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:48:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15663 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:48:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15655 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 10:48:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust148.tnt3.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.32.148]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id JAA10986 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:57:44 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <348580EB.2A09@gte.net> Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 10:55:23 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Electronic Water Softener Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 715 Greetings, Have any of you tried the New Wave electronic water softener distributed by Home Depot. It's a small unit that uses electrical impulses to break up the minerals in the water coming into your home. They sell for $185, no tanks, no salt, etc. The salesman said he'd been receiving very positive feedback from customers. I plan to go watch their demo video shortly, but would like to hear of any first hand experience. Thanks. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 11:11:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA00712 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:11:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA25987 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:11:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17318; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:06:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:03:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16998 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:02:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from MAILSERV.CIWMB.CA.GOV ([156.41.30.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16993 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:02:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by mailserv.ciwmb.ca.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:04:43 -0800 Message-ID: <23994649BBB4CF11A967000000000001B5FEEC@mailserv.ciwmb.ca.gov> From: "Robb, Casey" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: GMX magnetic water (pseudo?)softeners Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:04:40 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 716 In my household we tested a $40 washing "ball" in 2 washloads. Though the result wasn't bad, it wasn't convincing either. The clothes just smelled like wet clothes. We should have done it more scientifically, e.g. wash a greasy rag and compare. We didn't buy it. Maybe it works, but if you're considering purchasing it, I recommend testing it first. > -----Original Message----- > From: sbtauto@juno.com [SMTP:sbtauto@juno.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 1997 8:40 AM > To: nadav@ebuild.com > Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: Re: GBlist: GMX magnetic water (pseudo?)softeners > > Well their marketing sure works. My neighbor (a plumber) is making a > killing selling these things. They sell for hundreds of dollars but > basically it is another pyramid scheme. > > I found a similar product (looks identical) in the winter issue of the > Brookstone Hard to Find Tools catalog (page 68, part number 213959) > for > $40.00. I briefly thought about ordering one and trying it out > (what's > $40?). > > Steve Shepard > SBT Automation > 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 > sbtauto@juno.com > http://www.lore.net/~sbt > > On Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:50:01 -0500 Nadav Malin > writes: > >Hi folks, > > > >I posted a query a while back about GMX water softeners, which are > >sold > >with the claim that they can eliminate scaling and soften water, just > > >by > >attaching some magnets to the water line. I know, sounds like the > >perfect > >hoax, but they are pretty convincing and I'm rather gullible, so I > >looked > >into it. > > > >I got back three responses, all very negative. I'm now convinced that > > >the > >GMX is not worth spending any more money or time on. > > > >I'd be glad to forward the responses to anyone who cares to read > them. > >Please e-mail me personally (NOT to the list!) if you're interested. > > > >Cheers! Nadav > >Environmental Building News > > > > > >_____________________________________________________________________ > _ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >_____________________________________________________________________ > _ > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 11:45:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA01553 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:45:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04195 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:45:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18996; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:40:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:36:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18542 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:36:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from m10.boston.juno.com (m10.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.195]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18538 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:36:02 -0500 (EST) From: gaudi@juno.com Received: (from gaudi@juno.com) by m10.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LDN26763; Wed, 03 Dec 1997 11:33:53 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:34:48 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Moisture penetration Message-ID: <19971203.083450.3526.1.gaudi@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 5-7 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 717 I have a client in San Diego that has a moisture problem in his basement area. The house is built on a steep grade with a system of concrete block retaining walls. I would like to know more about the panel system that some list members are referring to, specifications and the name of the manufacturer would be helpful. And any other options that can be investigated. Thank you Daniel Goudy, Architect ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 12:18:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02409 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:18:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12647 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:18:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21240; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:13:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:09:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20813 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:09:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20809 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id LAA0000004808; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:13:40 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971203171539.006dbb3c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 11:15:39 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Tree Uses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 718 Listers, Not to change the current subjects, but I would appreciate any recommendations for books that are written about how different species of trees can be used for building. We have a large wood lot with a wide variety of trees and would like to use these for building where we can--we are in a many-year-long process of thinning some to allow others to grow larger. Someone talked to me about a book published in the 30s on the general subject of tree use, but had no specific information regarding title. I am interested in the sort of information that tells me for instance, that Honey Locusts, whereas is a good hard wood used in fence posts (or presumably barn poles), is a tree species particularly subject to wood borer infestation. We have a whole lot of Honey Locusts and Osage Orange (Hedge Trees), as well as a variety of oaks, hickories and we plan to build a number of building on the property. Thanks Sacie Lambertson. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 12:46:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA00521 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:46:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19632 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:46:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23272; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:41:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:37:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22962 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:37:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from bcs.bccom.com (bcs.bccom.com [204.255.144.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22958 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:37:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (pm-028.bccom.com [204.255.145.28]) by bcs.bccom.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA12190 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:41:54 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:41:54 -0500 Message-Id: <199712031841.NAA12190@bcs.bccom.com> X-Sender: rfried@bccom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Rona Fried Subject: Re: GBlist: Tree Uses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 719 Sacie, >I would appreciate any recommendations for books that are written about how >different species of trees can be used for building. There is an excellent CD-ROM on the subject, called Wood of the World. Tell Richard Miller I say Hi when you contact him: wow@together.net. If his product isn't appropriate I'm sure he can lead you to one that is. Rona Fried, Ph.D. Executive Editor, Sustainable Business Network Journal http://www.envirolink.org/sbn 516-423-3277 -- The Sustainable Business Network is a focal point for the sustainable business community on the Internet. It consists of The SBN Journal, Library, Sustainable Business Opportunities and, Green Dream Jobs -- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 12:59:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA00801 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:59:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA16701 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:36:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22687; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:31:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:28:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22234 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:27:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.greenbuilder.com (web4.gomedia.com [204.96.111.84] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22228 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:27:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 11:44:22 +0000 Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 11:42:17 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: InfiNet Subject: GBlist: Insulation To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <4783313.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 720 Last month, crkoehn@mailbag.com, made a nice comparison betweenEPS and PUR/PIR foams. Is any one able to give us a comparison between EPS and XPS foams (extruded polystyrene vs expanded polystyrene)? -- Sue Barnett sjb@greenbuilder.com Green Building Professionals Directory http://www2.greenbuilder.com/directory/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sustainable Sources - Internet Solutions with an Environmental Perspective info@greenbuilder.com BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 13:26:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA01482 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:26:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA00616 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:26:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25672; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:21:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:15:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24969 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:15:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin42.mail.aol.com (mrin42.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.152]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24963 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:15:38 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin42.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA01217; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:18:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:18:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971203131829_1906313957@mrin42.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: sbtauto@juno.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Referral for a Ohio Builder Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 721 sbtauto@juno.com (Steve Shepard) wrote: >I have a client who wishes to build an earth material shelter (home) in >the middle state Ohio region. > >Can someone please supply a referral to a builder in or near this region >with experience or at least someone who is willing to erect this type of >structure?... I met this gentleman at a Natural Building Colloquium in Northern California a couple of years ago. He is a very thoughtful and creative builder with earth materials. You might try contacting him. Mark Hoberecht Natural Homesteads 13182 N. Boone Road Columbia Station, OH 44028 phone: 216 433 5362 (work) fax: 216 433 8311 scarecrow@lerc.nasa.gov Founder of "Natural Homesteads;" empowering people to build their own hybrid cob/straw-bale structures. Services include design, consultation, instruction and supervision. Good luck with your project. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant Berkeley, CA IAQKibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 13:35:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA01698 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:35:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA03082 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:35:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26184; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:26:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:23:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25829 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:22:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from enteract.com (uucp@enteract.com [206.54.252.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25824 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:22:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from gard.com (uucp@localhost) by enteract.com (8.8.8/8.7.6) with UUCP id MAA17733 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:26:58 -0600 (CST) Message-id: From: jglazer@gard.com (Jason Glazer) Organization: GARD Analytics To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:15:53 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Comments Sought on ASHRAE Commercial Building Standard 90.1 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 722 A proposed revision of ASHRAE's Standard 90.1 which effectively regulates energy using equipment in U.S. commercial buildings has been released for a second public review draft. Anyone can submit comments from December 1 to March 30. BSR/IESNA/ASHRAE Standard 90.1-1989R "Energy Standard for Buildings Except Low-Rise Residential Buildings" is available for download at: http://204.7.184.20/STANDARDS/pds90men.htm The draft is also available on paper for $45. ASHRAE will be accepting public comments on the proposed revision by e-mail - the details on how to do this are in the instructions. In addition, ASHRAE has organized question and answer sessions at their upcoming meeting January 17-21 in San Francisco, see: http://204.7.184.20/ABOUT/90wkshop.htm http://204.7.184.20/ABOUT/win98pro.htm http://www.ashrae.org/ The November ASHRAE Journal article announcing the public review can also be found at: http://204.7.184.20/STANDARDS/sanov97.htm If you want keep up with events concerning the ASHRAE 90.1 draft standard please send me an e-mail at jglazer@gard.com and put 901NEWS in the subject line. I don't expect many announcements and I promise your e-mail address will be kept confidential. Please feel free to copy this message to any relevant forums. Jason Glazer ===================================================================== Jason Glazer GARD Analytics Inc mailto:jglazer@gard.com Building Energy Simulation List Administrator Consultant to ASHRAE 90.1 HVAC/SWH and ECB http://www.gard.com ph (847) 698 - 5686 fax - 5600 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 14:49:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA03421 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:49:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA24598 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:49:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00788; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:44:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:40:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA00201 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:40:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin47.mail.aol.com (mrin47.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.157]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00196 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:40:09 -0500 (EST) From: MHillLEDA@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin47.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA03470 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:43:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:43:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971203144350_-2028278911@mrin47> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Bug infestation in roof spaces Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 723 Does anyone have information on safe methods of controlling insect infestation in roof voids. The insects we are having a problem with are non hazardous to buildings but a nuisance to occupants (humans) ? Matthew Hill ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 15:02:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA03690 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:02:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA28306 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:02:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02558; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:57:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:53:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA02007 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:53:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin85.mail.aol.com (mrin85.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.195]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02000 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:53:31 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin85.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA21051; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:57:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:57:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971203145711_279801852@mrin85.mail.aol.com> To: annie.pearce@gtri.gatech.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Moisture problems in existing house Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 724 In a message dated 12/3/97 1:26:43 PM, you wrote: <> Annie, Tell me more about the symptoms of the building. Is it high humidity and smells like mold? or do the springs form streams in the basement that a trout would find attractive? Are the problems seasonal? Is the mold hidden or can you sample it with a shovel? Do the footing drains exit to daylight? enter a sump with a pump? Depending on the answers to these questions, they may need a simple cleaning and a high efficiency dehumidifier, or they may need a more complex decontamination and a retrofitted interior or exterior drainage system. My experience is that the springs can be dealtt with (I've handled 12 gpm before), but it may be fairly expensive. -Terry Brennan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 15:39:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA04483 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA08194 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05203; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:34:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:30:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04829 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:30:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin79.mail.aol.com (mrin79.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.189]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04825 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:30:15 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin79.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA02394; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:33:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 15:33:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971203153325_-2060801318@mrin79> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: GBlist: Tree Uses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 725 In a message dated 12/3/97 10:41:44 AM, Sacie Lambertson wrote: >Listers, > Not to change the current subjects, but I would appreciate any >recommendations for books that are written about how different species of >trees can be used for building. We have a large wood lot with a wide >variety of trees and would like to use these for building where we can--we >are in a many-year-long process of thinning some to allow others to grow >larger. Someone talked to me about a book published in the 30s on the >general subject of tree use, but had no specific information regarding title. > I am interested in the sort of information that tells me for >instance, that Honey Locusts, whereas is a good hard wood used in fence >posts (or presumably barn poles), is a tree species particularly subject to >wood borer infestation. We have a whole lot of Honey Locusts and Osage >Orange (Hedge Trees), as well as a variety of oaks, hickories and we plan to >build a number of building on the property. > Thanks Sacie Lambertson. The simple little book, "The Wood Users Guide," by Pamela Wellner and Eugene Dickey, published by Rainforest Action Network, SF, 1991, says: "Honey locust (Gleditsia triacanthos). Other name, Thorn tree. Origin: eastern U.S. It's rather scarce. Sapwood is yellowish and heartwood is light red to reddish brown. When found is generally used locally for fence posts and lumber for general construction." "Osage Orange (Maclura pomifera). Other names: bois d'arc, hedge. Origin: U.S. Heartwood is yellow. Uses: bows, canes, outdoor uses, novelty items." Other listings include Red Oak, White Oak (Quercus alba and Q. garryara), Live Oak, Live Canyon Oak, and Black Oak. Most of these oaks are extremely decay-resistant and have been used in shipbuilding, outdoor furniture, wine barrels, musical instruments, fence posts, railroad ties and many other uses, as well as for finished furniture, veneers and millwork. I know California Tan Oak has been used successfully for flooring. They list pecan Hickory and true Hickory as being useful for tool handles, flooring, pallets, veneer for furniture and paneling, ladder rungs, athletic goods, agricultural implements, dowels, and poles. John Bower (in "The Healthy House," published by Carol Publishing Group, NJ, 1991 and 1997), and various other authors who list naturally rot-resistant and insect-resistant woods, include the heartwood portion of Osage Orange along with black cherry, black locust, black walnut, various cedars, chestnut, junipers, red mulberry, Pacific yew and redwood. The various resins, oils, tannins and other natural chemicals in these woods which give them their rot-resistance may have aromatic qualities bothersome to people with chemical sensitivities. Pamela Wellner and Eugene Dickey also recommend the following reading: "Beautiful Woods," by Frank Paxton Lumber Co., 1987 "The Encyclopedia of Wood," ed., Aidan Walker, (Quarto Publishing, plc., 1989) "The Encyclopedia of Wood," by the Good Wood Advisory Centre, Melbourne, Australia, 1990 "The Good Wood Guide," by Simon Counsell, (Friends of the Earth,1990) "Know Your Woods," by Albert Constantine, Jr., (Scribner's * Sons, NY, 1959) "What Wood is That," by Herbert L. Edlin, (Viking Press, NY, 1960) I suggest you contact David Faison of "Into the Woods," specialists in recovered and urban harvest timbers. He may have further information on individual species and characteristics. David Faison Into the Woods 300 N. Water Street Petaluma, CA 94952 707-763-0159 FAX 707-459-6306 Also Mendocino Real Wood Coop is a nonprofit worker/ owner/consumer cooperative and has information on salvaged and sustainably harvested local timber. Naomi Wagner, Coordinator c/o Mendocino Environmental Center 106 Standley Street Ukiah, CA 95482 707-468-1660 Fax: 707-459-0548 Hope this helps. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant Berkeley, CA IAQKibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 16:47:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA06061 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:47:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA26656 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA08754; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:42:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:38:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA08359 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:38:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin83.mail.aol.com (mrin83.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.193]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08355 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:38:02 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin83.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA02256 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:41:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:41:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971203164143_1973577682@mrin83.mail.aol.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, MHillLEDA@aol.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Bug infestation in roof spaces Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 726 In a message dated 12/3/97 12:23:14 PM, Matthew Hill wrote: >Does anyone have information on safe methods of controlling insect >infestation in roof voids. The insects we are having a problem with are non >hazardous to buildings but a nuisance to occupants (humans) ? > >Matthew Hill Talk to Burt Tate, the biologist at Bio-Pest, a pest management firm using least toxic and nontoxic methods, specializing in fleas, wasps, ticks, grain and pantry pests, dust mites, rats and mice, small mammals, ants and bees. Burt is a member of the National Pest Control Association and is licensed by the CA Structural Pest Control Board. P. O. Box 5295 Petaluma, CA 94955 707-765-6565 or 800-BIO-SAF-1 Also read "Common Sense Pest Control," by Olkowski, Daar and Olkowski, Taunton Press, 1991. Call BIRC (Bio-Integral Resource Center) at 510-524-2567 or Fax: 510-524-1758. They will, in exchange for a modest membership fee, give out detailed information by phone or in published information sheets on pests and ways to control them safely. Hope this helps. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant Berkeley, CA IAQKibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 18:16:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA08189 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:16:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA23525 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:15:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12981; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:11:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:07:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA12709 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:07:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from freedom.mtn.org (freedom.mtn.org [198.174.235.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA12705 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:06:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mtn.org (dial-030.mtn.org [198.174.235.230]) by freedom.mtn.org (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA16525 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:11:00 -0600 Message-ID: <3485D9AB.E86BAF13@mtn.org> Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 17:14:07 -0500 From: Michelle Carstensen Reply-To: michelle@ilsr.org Organization: ILSR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Carbohydrate Economy Newsletter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 727 Dear GreenBuilding Listers: The Institute for Local Self-Reliance (ILSR) is pleased to announce the release of the first issue of "The Carbohydrate Economy". Produced quarterly, the 16-page newsletter will be a vehicle for sharing information and monitoring ongoing developments in this most recent incarnation of the carbohydrate economy. (see ILSR's web site at http://www.ilsr.org/carbo/ ) The Table of Contents and one article is posted below. In order to ensure that the production of the newsletter can continue, we must charge a small fee to cover production costs. The first issue is available for review and we ask that you subscribe for $35 per year in order to receive future editions. In order to conserve resources, we are also considering making the newsletter available on the web to subscribers who are interested. Let us know if you prefer getting the newsletter off the web. For a free review copy of the first issue and subscription information, send us your name and postal address. Send the request to bailey@ilsr.org ILSR's Carbohydrate Economy project has worked for many years to promote technologies and ideas based on increased use of plant matter for industrial purposes. We hope that the newsletter will increase the visibility and speed the rebirth of the carbohydrate-based industrial economy --------------------------------------------------------- THE CARBOHYDRATE ECONOMY Volume No. 1, Issue No. 1, Fall 1997 --------------------------------------------------------- TABLE OF CONTENTS 1. The Fiber Revolution If the coming fiber revolution has its way, kenaf - along with cornstalks, wheat straw and switchgrass - will enter common vocabulary as a primary source of paper and other products now made out of wood fiber. 2. Back To The Future With new technology, plant matter matters again. 3. Companies On The Cutting Edge 1998: A Watershed Year for the Carbohydrate Economy? 4. Changing the Rules Rules designed to open doors for biological products. 5. Hemp: The Rip Van Winkle Crop Once in disfavor, hemp is regaining popularity. 6. Vegetable Oils Reclaim Their Share Of Inks Soy inks have captured 9 percent of the market - and want more. 7. Biochemicals Enhance Worker Safety Lower health risk is one benefit of biochemicals in the workplace. 8. Book Shelf/Web Shelf Resources on agriculturally-derived materials --------------------------------------------------------- BACK TO THE FUTURE Letter from David Morris One hundred fifty years ago, ours was a carbohydrate economy. Clothes, houses, vehicles, chemicals, dyes and inks were derived from plants. In 1820, for every ton of minerals consumed we used two tons of vegetable matter. Before the Civil War, ethanol derived from corn, molasses and potatoes may have been the nation's best selling fuel and industrial chemical. When John Wesley Hyatt and his brother Isaiah introduced the first commercially successful plastic in 1865, they named it "celluloid" because it was derived from cotton and cotton is 94 percent cellulose. In the 1890s, a slightly different process was used to fashion a film that brought photography to the masses. To this day Hollywood calls its movies "celluloids," although we doubt most filmmakers remember why. The first film plastic was called cellophane. The first car radios were made of a hard plastic derived from wood. Nylon wasn't the first synthetic fiber: rayon made from cotton was first, and rayon made from wood was second. Then the age of oil dawned. In the battle for industrial supremacy between dead carbon and living carbon, the fossilized remains of plant matter have important advantages. For one thing, oil is easy and cheap to transport. For another, after being subjected to great pressure over eons, fossilized plant matter is stripped of the 53 percent of its weight that is oxygen, making coal and oil remarkably compact sources of energy. The oil industry had another important advantage. It rode the wave of soaring automobile fuel demand and spent billions of dollars building refineries to wring the highest value out of every last drop of oil. A typical oil refinery makes dozens of construction, chemical and fuel products. By 1925 Americans consumed three tons of minerals for every one ton of vegetables. By 1989 the ratio had soared to six to one. By the dawn of the 1990s, two-thirds of the clothes we wore were derived from oil. Fossil plastics were displacing paper in grocery bags and food containers. Food dyes and even some of our salad dressings were made from mineral oil. Carbohydrate chemistry had all but disappeared from college curricula. But just as we were about to hammer the last nail in the coffin of the carbohydrate economy, the pendulum began to swing the other way. Environmental regulations began to raise the cost of extracting, burning, manufacturing and disposing of fossil fuels and their derivatives. By requiring oxygenated fuels or degradable plastics, by phasing out chlorofluorocarbons and restricting the use of toxic chemicals, environmental regulations opened up opportunities for biological products. Meanwhile, environmental regulations that restricted the cutting of old-growth forests and banned the burning of straw in the fields spurred entrepreneurs to use agricultural fibers to make construction products and paper. Engineers began to develop technologies that could reduce the cost and increase the quality of products derived from plant matter. Meanwhile, the U.S. and Canada began phasing out farm support programs. This spurred farmers to consider ways to upgrade the value of their crops and many sought to become owners of the factories that would convert their crops into final products. Cooperatively owned factories began to arise in rural America and "value-added" became a mantra for rural development officials and farmers alike. Although this most recent incarnation of the carbohydrate economy is still young and somewhat fragile, we at the Institute for Local Self-Reliance think it is vigorous enough to justify the creation of vehicles for sharing information and monitoring ongoing developments. We hope this newsletter can help meet that need. Within these pages we will report on the new technologies, organizational forms, products, markets and rules of this re-emerging economy. You'll notice that in this premiere issue whether we're talking about using soybean oil for inks or cornstalks for paper, the theme is "back to the future" in a very literal sense. We are returning to the use of plant materials for industrial purposes, but with technologies that would have seemed impossible only a few years ago. Perhaps in another few years we'll all be fueling our cars with banana peels, as they did in Back to the Future (the movie), and that crazy scientist Christopher Lloyd won't seem crazy at all. As with any information resource, this one can only be as good as the network that supports it. We welcome your feedback, suggestions and most importantly, your help in making the carbohydrate economy a reality. David Morris Vice President Institute for Local Self-Reliance --------------------------------------------------------- UPCOMING STORIES Gas from Grass Cellulose found in grasses, garbage, straw and stalks can be turned into fuel ethanol. But can this fuel compete with ethanol made from starch? Perishable Plastics Degradable plastics stumbled out of the starting blocks in the early 1990s and have slowly picked up speed. But are they ready for the big time? Great Brains in the Great Plains North Dakota's one-of-a-kind, state-owned infrastructure and innovative legislative-sponsored development of manufacturing cooperatives are paying huge dividends. Factories in the Fields What's good, what's bad and what's ugly in farmer-owned industries. Close-up on Canada Like the U.S., Canada is phasing out its farm support programs. The result? A surge of entrepreneurial development in value-added agriculture, global marketing and cooperative formation. Privatizing AARC The public venture capitalist with the unwieldy name, The Alternative Agricultural Research and Commercialization (AARC) Corporation, has invested more than $30 million to find industrial uses for agricultural materials. Now Congress has asked it to become private - will the transition change the way they operate? New Policy in the Old World European farmer cooperatives are looking toward global markets as their farm-support programs shift to agricultural manufacturing. -- John Bailey, Research Associate Institute for Local Self-Reliance 1313 Fifth Street SE Minneapolis, MN 55414 Tel: 612-379-3815 Fax: 612-379-3920 ILSR's Web Site: http://www.ilsr.org Sustainable MN: http://www.me3.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 20:53:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA12197 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:53:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA08490 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:52:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18552; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:48:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:43:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA18090 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:43:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18081 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:43:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.12] (blf12.acadia.net [205.217.217.12]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA16785 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:47:39 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:45:56 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Honey Locusts Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 728 Honey Locust (gleditsia tricanthos) planting should be encouraged. It is widely adaptable to a variety of soils; it is leguminous (works with soil bacteria to make nitrogen); it is tolerant of salt, drought and air pollution (one reason it's used widely in urban forestry); and certain strains make pods which are high in simple carbohydrates and proteins, showing great promise as an animal feed or food additive. In the Bible, when it sates that John the Baptist survived in the desert on "honey and locusts", it isn't referring to bugs - it's referring to carob pods - a close relative of honey locust pods. - David ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 20:53:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA12202 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:53:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA08506 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:52:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18550; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:48:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:43:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA18079 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:43:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18075 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:43:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.12] (blf12.acadia.net [205.217.217.12]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA16777 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:47:34 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:45:51 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: front loading laundry Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 729 It's true that front loaders usually require kneeling, unless they are installed above floor level. However, front loaders on floor level - with controls on the front of the machine- allow a counter to be placed above them, providing a place to fold and sort. This allows a useful laundry station to be in a compact space. - David ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 21:14:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA12803 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:14:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA14495 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:14:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19567; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:09:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:06:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA19320 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:05:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin38.mx.aol.com (mrin38.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA19315 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:05:52 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin38.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA11050 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:09:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:09:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971203210932_-723687114@mrin38.mx> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: GMX magnetic water (pseudo?)softeners Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 730 I tested a couple magnetic water softeners extensively a few years ago. It was a long-term test, under controlled lab conditions, carefully looking at effects on both heat transfer and pressure drop. They did not do a thing. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 3 23:30:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA15905 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:30:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA16609 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:30:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA24060; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:26:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:22:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23692 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:22:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from dry2.jps.net (dry2.jps.net [208.25.63.250]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23682 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:22:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from dry.jps.net (dry.jps.net [208.25.63.253]) by dry2.jps.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA25659 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:26:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from toshiba (istk-port587.jps.net [208.25.63.112]) by dry.jps.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA00315 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:26:12 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:26:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199712040426.UAA00315@dry.jps.net> X-Sender: rriedel@jps.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: New JPSnet Customer Subject: GBlist: Another perspective on the words "economy, economic" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 731 In responce to Fred Unger's comments and the following statement: "Once economic values are in line with our human and global values, most of the oppressive environmental crap that the business community is always fighting will be unnecessary and we can all be going in the same direction." I had the good fortune to hear Daniel C. Mcguire, a professor of religion and ethics at Marquette University, speak at an Alliance to Save Energy conference in WA, DC in either '88 or '89. He spoke of the ongoing debate between the environmentalists and the Administration at that time. The discussion and perspective from the administration was how it did not make economic sense to support environmental and energy efficient projects/efforts. In responce, Prof. Mcquire pointed out the word economy is derived from the Greek and Latin words okios, and nomos. nomos is the care, management or stewartship and okios is the home, group of homes or village. One can look at this in a micro or macro perspective. I prefer the macro; economy is the care, management or stewartship of the village. Randel R. Riedel Energy Specialist CA Energy Commission ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 4 02:42:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA20698 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 02:42:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA20247 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 02:41:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA28974; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 02:37:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Dec 1997 02:33:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA28703 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 02:32:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from bendnet.com (tumalo.bendnet.com [199.2.205.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA28699 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 02:32:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.163.37.69] (b59.bendnet.com [206.163.37.69]) by bendnet.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/bendnet-MX) with SMTP id XAA17522 for ; Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:35:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 00:33:09 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: airtime@bendnet.com (Marti Croal) Subject: GBlist: Request info on fireproofing product Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 732 An acquaintance saw a new product recently on TV - on a building program or something like Beyond 2000 or The Next Step... the product was a fireproofing material made from the same stuff that's in disposable diapers. It is apparently in some slurry like form and sprayed on. Can anyone add more info such as product name or manufacturer, suggested applications and general "green" rating? Thanks to any and all responders. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 4 05:32:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA24343 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:32:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA15907 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:32:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA01750; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:28:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:24:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA01504 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:23:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from eken.hv.se (eken.hv.se [194.47.65.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA01500 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 05:23:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from almen.hv.se (almen.hv.se [194.47.99.2]) by eken.hv.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01510 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:28:43 +0100 (MET) Received: from sb07itn (sb07itn.hv.se [194.47.81.131]) by almen.hv.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29690 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:22:06 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971204092448.008e1998@student.hv.se> X-Sender: mspib94@student.hv.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 10:24:48 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Monika Sprycha Subject: GBlist: Clay and loam Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 733 Hello! We are four building engineers who want to have a recipe how to build a 1 m2 wall of clay and loam. Thanks for your help. Monika, Catrin, Mikaela and Katja. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 4 06:24:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA25679 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 06:24:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA23240 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 06:24:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA02713; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 06:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Dec 1997 06:15:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA02427 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 06:15:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from eken.hv.se (eken.hv.se [194.47.65.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA02423 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 06:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from almen.hv.se (almen.hv.se [194.47.99.2]) by eken.hv.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02399 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:20:36 +0100 (MET) Received: from sb07itn (sb07itn.hv.se [194.47.81.131]) by almen.hv.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01745 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:14:01 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971204101642.008e3e40@student.hv.se> X-Sender: mspib94@student.hv.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 11:16:42 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Monika Sprycha Subject: GBlist: Recycling market Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id GAA02424 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 734 Hello! I´m a building engineer from Sweden and I wonder how the recycling market looks like in the other countries. Thank you for your help. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 4 07:10:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA26585 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:10:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA29668 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:09:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA03863; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:05:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:01:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA03643 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:01:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from eken.hv.se (eken.hv.se [194.47.65.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA03639 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:01:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from almen.hv.se (almen.hv.se [194.47.99.2]) by eken.hv.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03045 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:06:28 +0100 (MET) Received: from sb07itn (sb07itn.hv.se [194.47.81.131]) by almen.hv.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03807 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:59:53 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971208160233.008f9860@student.hv.se> X-Sender: mspib94@student.hv.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:02:33 -10000 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Monika Sprycha Subject: GBlist: straw and clay Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id HAA03640 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 735 Hello we are two students at the University of Växjö in Sweden! We are supposed to build a Wall in ecological way with natural materials. We would like to create a wall made of straw and clay. Our question is: Is there anyone who knows anything about the alergical risks with this method, especially for people who spend a lot of their time inside such houses? Fredrik Wånehed och Jan-Åke Svensson. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 4 07:25:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA26885 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:25:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA01796 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:25:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA04309; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:20:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:17:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA04075 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:16:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.vineyard.net (mail@ns2.vineyard.net [204.17.195.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA04069 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mail.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10952; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:21:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy1.vineyard.net(199.232.92.91) by mail.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma010938; Thu Dec 4 07:20:43 1997 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19971203171539.006dbb3c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:12:40 +0100 To: "David F. Lambertson" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: Re: GBlist: Tree Uses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 736 Hi Sacie - You said: > Not to change the current subjects, but I would appreciate any >recommendations for books that are written about how different species of >trees can be used for building. We have a large wood lot with a wide >variety of trees and would like to use these for building where we can--we >are in a many-year-long process of thinning some to allow others to grow >larger. Someone talked to me about a book published in the 30s on the >general subject of tree use, but had no specific information regarding title. > I am interested in the sort of information that tells me for >instance, that Honey Locusts, whereas is a good hard wood used in fence >posts (or presumably barn poles), is a tree species particularly subject to >wood borer infestation. We have a whole lot of Honey Locusts and Osage >Orange (Hedge Trees), as well as a variety of oaks, hickories and we plan to >build a number of building on the property. > Thanks Sacie Lambertson. Let me say first that I am a confirmed and hopeless wood junkie. My favorite book about woods is not really about woods at all, but about trees. It's called "Knowing Your Trees" and was published by the American Forestry Association in 1964, but first published in 1937. I bought it in 1969 after I read about it in the Whole Earth Catalog (thank god for Stewart Brand!) and the same copy has survived these nearly 30 years and countless miles. So I really don't know if it's still in print. It's a wonderful, large format book which devotes two pages to each American tree species (about 170) listed. For each entry there's a good range map, good photos, and thorough, detailed descriptions of a variety of characteristics, including uses. For example, one of six paragraphs about Osage Orange reads: "Heartwood, as well as sapwood, is bright yellow, but the former turns brown on exposure. It weighs about 48 pounds to the cubic foot when air dry, is stronger than white oak, but not so stiff, and is very hard. Because of its durability in contact with the soil, material of suitable size is used for fence posts, railroad ties, and cabin supports. In the horse and buggy days the hubs and rims of wheels for farm wagons were made from Osage Orange. Pulleyblocks are now made of it, but perhaps its most specialized use is by modern archers, who, like the early Indians, prize the flexible wood of straight clear-grained specimens for the construction of bows." This book is a treasure. Hope you can find it. Let me know. We work primarily on the island of Martha's Vineyard, off the coast of Massachusetts, where most of the trees are crooked and stunted white and red oaks. In recent years we've decided there are better and higher uses for these trees, when cleared from building sites, roadways, or new fields, than cutting them up for firewood. We've developed some skill at scribed joinery and use these odd-shaped but sturdy trees for construction purposes- posts and beams, porch framing, trellises, etc. Carefully considered and well put together, they're very beautiful, and they come right from the building site - no trucking, no sawmill, no nothing - just painstaking craftsmanship. Some of our inspiration has come from Merle Adams and his company, Big Timberworks, in Bozeman Montana, who are masters at shaping the misshapen pieces of wood that nobody wants into beautiful houses. Good luck, John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 4 11:58:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04348 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:58:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA14582 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:57:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17903; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:53:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:49:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17390 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:49:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.vineyard.net (mail@ns2.vineyard.net [204.17.195.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17386 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:48:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mail.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA28843 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:53:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from asy3.vineyard.net(199.232.92.43) by mail.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id smaa28826; Thu Dec 4 11:53:04 1997 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:42:57 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Washing machines Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 737 Another advantage to controls on the front: washer/dryer can be set up side by side and have a very useful counter on top, either the machines themselves, or added. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 4 13:05:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06793 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:05:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA05956 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:05:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21146; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:56:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20809 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:56:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20805 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:56:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.21] (mke-1-5.binc.net [208.142.229.21]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA25117; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:00:25 -0600 Message-Id: <199712041800.MAA25117@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Tree Uses Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 12:10:56 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "David F. Lambertson" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 738 Hi Sacie, >From what I know of the species you ask about: I believe honey locust is the species my father-in-law used for fence posts 50 years ago on their farm. They are still in near mint condition. I know the grain in the wood is really wild, and difficult to make any lumber out of. Osage orange is sought after up here as a material for making tools. White oak has quite good rot resistancy. We spec it when we are doing any outdoor timber framing. Red oak is more susceptable to bugs and rot, but is most often used as trim lumber. Kind of depends on the actual genus: southern species are much weaker than northern. We will spec northern red oak as critical structural members, splines, etc. Hickory is useful as a finish lumber. I've seen some beautiful (and durable) hickory floors. Also tough as nails- good for tool (axe, etc) handles. As with all "do it yourself" lumbering, it's important to have saw logs worthy of the time, effort, and expense of sawing. I do a fair amount of this. In fact I have to go to Minnesota next month to take down two 50 year old black walnuts, which I will have rift sawn by a guy with a portable bandsaw mill. I plan to sticker and air dry it in my in-law's barn for a few years, rather than paying for kiln drying. I'm interested to hear of other responses on this subject. Chris Koehn Top Ridge Homes ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 4 14:00:25 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA08502 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 14:00:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA23568 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:59:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24200; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:55:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:50:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23781 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:50:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23775 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:50:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from van-as-08c03.direct.ca [204.174.249.179] by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.70 #1) id 0xdgQ0-0007GG-00; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:54:37 -0800 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: Re: Washing Machine Objections Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:09:37 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 739 Craig DeWitt asked > Why not elevate either/both machines sightly so you don't have to bend over? > > Do any of the H-axis washers have controls across the front? I think the > "accessibility" potential of the H-axis washers is a benefit people are > overlooking. > A very valid point. The Creda, an English made unit has its controls on the front at the top of the unit. The unit is designed to accomodate a dryer above it as an option, so it could easily be installed at any height that was suitable. As most European units, it requires 220 Volt wiring, but it hooks up to both hot and cold water, even though it has it's own internal heater. This is for those that want to boil their clothes when washing (it will heat up to about 200 F), so if the incoming mix is not enough, the internal heater kicks in. No idea why you'd want such hot water, although I guess if disinfection is an issue at times, the hot temperatures are handy. I've aquired one of these recently, and am very satisfied with the unit. It certainly doesn't us much detergent! ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seymour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 4 16:52:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA13771 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:52:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA16311 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:52:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02271; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:47:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:43:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA01684 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:43:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA01677 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.211] (ka3-211.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.211]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA00181 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:47:22 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:30:03 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Speireag Subject: GBlist: Lining Dug Wells Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA01680 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 740 Hallo, all. I am intending to dig a shallow well (about 8-9 feet deep) come spring. I know how to dig it, I know how to pipe from it, I know how to pump from it, BUT I don't know how to line it. I've heard that people use cement of some sort. I'd rather not use the embodied energy if I can avoid it. Are there other sturdy and long-term alternatives? I have more rocks than I really want on this property, and I understand that people used to line shallow wells with them. How? How do I avoid dirt infiltrating in between the rocks and into the water? Put landscape fabric between the rocks and the ground? Would that be healthy? Is there a better way? Full of questions... -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 4 20:27:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA19471 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:27:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA22927 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:26:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA11214; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:22:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:17:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10710 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:17:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin38.mx.aol.com (mrin38.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10706 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:17:38 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin38.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id UAA06013 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:21:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:21:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971204202121_448673326@mrin38.mx> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Re: Washing Machine Objections Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 741 About his Creda washing machine, Richard was saying... >>No idea why you'd want such hot water [200 degrees], although I guess if disinfection is an issue at times, the hot temperatures are handy.<< I've heard washing bedding in very hot water reduces the dust mite population. Rob Harrison ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 4 22:43:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA22713 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:43:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA05003 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16346; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:38:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:34:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA16108 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:34:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA16104 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:34:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-29.topher.net [208.199.183.235]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA09012 for ; Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:29:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199712050329.VAA09012@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: Subject: GBlist: Washing Machines & Laundry Disks Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:38:40 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 742 I wasn't looking for technologically advanced. I was looking for a high quaility, reliable washer. Maytag is at about the midpoint in reliability data from Consumer Reports (It's amazing what an advertising campaign will do for your image!) which is OK, but not stellar. I don't see what the tilted drum has to do with the objection to h-axis machine. The Maytag still loads from the front (which, as others have pointed out is just what the dryer does). The Staber is a top load machine (drum in a drum) which would really eliminate the objection (though the controls are still mounted in the rear in reference to that discussion). ********** > The Maytag Neptune has several advantages, including: > > * since it's the newest thing on the market, it is likely to be most > technologically advanced/improved. > > * the tilted drum reduces the usual objection to horizontal-axis machines. > ########## On another topic, anyone wishing to send me $40 instead of purchasing a laundry disk, please do (how's that for a direct pyramid scheme)! I was tempted by these until I saw some research debunking the "chemistry" behind them (I wish I could find that article!) and then I saw an article in Consumer Reports that found no advantage to the disks. Heck, I'll even take 50% for saving you that $40! Again with that marketing thing. Signed A Skeptical (and minimal) Consumer Paul ************* Subject: Re: GBlist: GMX magnetic water (pseudo?)softeners > > Well their marketing sure works. My neighbor (a plumber) is making a > killing selling these things. They sell for hundreds of dollars but > basically it is another pyramid scheme. > > I found a similar product (looks identical) in the winter issue of the > Brookstone Hard to Find Tools catalog (page 68, part number 213959) > for > $40.00. I briefly thought about ordering one and trying it out > (what's > $40?). ---------- By the way, this whole laundry thing that I started has gone on much longer that I would have expected. I'll have to come up with a new question for us to ponder. I'll wait a little while in the hope that someone will come up with the Grand Unification Theory of Embodied Energy first. Paul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 5 09:52:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA08457 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA09761 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:51:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29683; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:47:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:41:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA29152 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:41:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mail.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA29147 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:41:27 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501 Message-ID: <219f68b2.34881035@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:30:53 EST To: MHillLEDA@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Bug infestation in roof spaces Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 743 In a message dated 12/3/97 3:28:56 PM, you wrote: <> Hi Matthew, It sort of depends on the insects. Integrated Pest Management is at heart the process of getting to know the creatures, understanding their lives and motivations and when you truly know them, destroy them, ar- arrhh- arrrrhh!!! What kind are they? - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 5 10:38:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA09794 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:38:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA23159 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:38:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01681; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:33:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:28:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01190 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:28:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo02.mail.aol.com (imo02.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.104]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01185 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:28:13 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501 Message-ID: <48769cc2.34881e47@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:31:17 EST To: annie.pearce@gtri.gatech.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Moisture problems in basement Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv10) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 744 Annie, Thanks for the info. Moisture migration into the foundation you describe is likely a fairly complex set of mechanisms. There are a lot of "what-if's". Here're my thoughts, take them with caution because the house tells it's own story: 1) Depending on the vapor pressure gradient, new finishes may well be blown right off the wall and floor. There's a test you can make to determine how much water is coming through the wall or slab. You need a scale that can weigh to 0.1 gram and a test kit that costs about $10 per location. The kit is from the Vaprecision Corp. at 1-800-572-2344. The results will be in grams of moisture per 1000 square feet per hour. Generally, if more than 3 - 5 grams per hour are emitted, it's inadviseable to put flooring down without dealing with the moisture. The company is affiliated with another company who does extensive surface preparation and then seals the wall or floor with coatings that they state will withstand substantially more vapor pressure than ordinary foundation treatments. I've never used the coatings so I have no personal experience with them. I have used the measurement method which compares favorably with flux measurements made using contiuous humidity monitoring in a flux bucket, but is much simpler and uses much less expensive equipment. 2) If the footing drains are covered with 6 feet of clay and there is clay under the slab, they are probably not very effective. Clay will hold water against the foundation walls and beneath the slab. A foundation in damp clay ought to be constructed so that there is a drainage layer against the exterior walls and beneath the slab. This intervenes in water migration by gravity, capillarity and vapor diffussion. Water in the clay against the walls may well be coming from the roof. The patio area may shield the soil from the roof water except at the patio-foundation wall joint, where it is likely there is a crack. Where there isn't any pation, the place where the soil meets the walls will go through expansion and contraction as the water content changes. Cracks opening when the soil dries and closing when it is wet. Are there gutters? If not, I'd install them and divert the water at least 10 feet down hill from the house. If the walls are hoolow core concrete block you may be able to divert the moisture coming through the wall using a small exhaust fan to depressurize the wall cavity. This is effective if the main water vapor transport mechanism is through the air gap by diffusion and advection. If the main transport is capillary action, it may not help much. 3) Water in the clay under the slab almost certainly comes from groundwater beneath the house. If there is a a drainage layer beneath the slab, this can be depressurized using the same method as the block wall depressurization (find a radon contractor in your area). If the clay is right beneath the slab and water is coming through the slab (by test), then you must seal the floor with special sealants (as discusseed above) or build a new floor on top with an air gap beneath ( like treated plywood on poly on Enkadrain or treated furring) and depressurize the air gap. 4) If you are uncomfortable with all the above treatments, you can simply leave the walls and/or floor(depending on where the moisture is entering and whether any of the above treatments have been applied) bare concrete, let the moisture enter and squeeze it out of the air with a high efficiency dehumidifier. The unit from Thermastor is the highest efficiency residential scale unit I know about and has a much higher capacity for water vapor removal than the little units sold at Sears and Wards. 5) Lastly, you can dig the foundation up, install drainage layers and dampproofing on the walls and retrofit a drainage ditch inside the house as you described. I wouldn't actually use a periemter trench drain because it makes it so easy for water vapor to get into the basement from the drainage system. I'd use a channel drain if I needed to collect water from the wall. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 5 11:33:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA11234 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:33:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA07931 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:33:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03668; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:28:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:23:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03353 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:23:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from c2smtp.payette.com (c2smtp.payette.com [199.232.148.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03334 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:23:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from NetWare MHS (SMF70) by c2smtp.payette.com via Connect2-SMTP 4.01.b32G; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:28:34 -0500 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:28:30 -5000 From: Daniel Arons Organization: Payette Associates Inc. To: greenbuilding@crest.org, brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Schools MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.01.b32G MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 745 Well put Bruce. An interesting thing happened on a recent project for a small liberal arts school; the questioned was raised, 'do you want this building to be a tool for instruction?'. Unfortunately, the response from this 'progressive' institution was that pedagogy would be a low priority. This strikes me as remarkable. All of our buildings _are_ and should be thought of as pedagogical devices. Whether we intend them to be or not, they represent our ideas, values and priorities. Camus said that 'through our actions as through our inactions we enter the fray'. By deciding against using the building as a teaching device, a school enters the fray advertising its lack of vision and wisdom. Bruce, thanks for your comments. ********************** Daniel Arons Architect Payette Associates, Inc (617)342-8201 ext. 324 darons@payette.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 5 15:41:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA18647 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:41:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15649 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:40:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15463; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:36:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:31:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15007 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:31:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15003 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:31:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.21] (iplink21.crocker.com [205.246.4.21]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA05208 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:43:55 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:38:36 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Solar DHW in the NE Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 746 >>Fred, >> >>>Anybody have good leads for solar DHW installers/contractors in southeastern >>>Massachusetts or Rhode Island? >> >>I think you might find Ev Barber and SunSearch to be quite valuable. >>Everett use to manufacture solar-thermal collectors 15 years ago with >>everybody else.For the past 15 years he has been maintaining his and >>everyone elses. He was pretty smart to begin with, and he leared lots more >>from all of the systems he has come in contact with. >>Ev Barber >>Sunsearch >>P. O. Box 590 >>Guildford CT. 06437 >>203-453-6591 >> >>Bruce Coldham > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 5 16:04:40 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA19372 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 16:04:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA21112 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 16:04:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16915; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:59:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:55:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16551 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:55:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM ([207.49.88.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16545 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:55:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM by rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ga021404 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:42:46 -0500 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Dan Cautley" Organization: NAHB Research Center, Inc. To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:46:53 -500 Subject: GBlist: efficient framing manual Reply-to: dcautley@nahbrc.org In-reply-to: <199712051330_MC2-2AD2-A864@compuserve.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) X-Info: NT Mail Server Message-Id: <23424681204448@NAHBRC.ORG> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 747 George: Two currently available guides to lumber- and energy-efficient framing are: Cost Effective Home Building NAHB Resarch Center (A guide to a full range of cost-reducing design and construction techniques, including framing) $20 + S/H >From NAHB Research Center, 301-249-4400, ext. 517 EEBA Builder's Guide Cold Climate or Mixed Climate editions available Energy Efficient Building Association (Excellent design and construction guides for energy efficiency and durability, including overview of framing practices) $40 + S/H >From NAHB Research Center, 301-249-4400, ext. 517 or EEBA, 612-851-9940 Guides are also available from AEC in North Carolina, the Canadian Home Builder's Association, Alaska Craftsman Home Program, and probably others. Original message: > Once upon a time I had a small manual on energy-efficient framing techniques > that covered such things as insulated headers and corners, caulking, etc. I > have lost the book, and can't even figure out where I got it originally. > > Can anyone suggest where I could find a copy of such a manual? > > Thanks, > > George > > ---------------------------- > George L. Newman > Hartwood, VA USA > wordsandmusic@compuserve.com Dan Cautley dcautley@nahbrc.org Phone 800-638-8556 x706 Fax 301-249-3265 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 5 17:29:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA21951 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA11733 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:29:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA20406; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:24:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:20:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA20065 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:20:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA20056 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:20:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.169] (li-ppp04.hevanet.com [204.119.60.169]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28104 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:24:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199712041800.MAA25117@glacier.binc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:22:33 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Tree Uses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 748 Hi, all-- Somewhat related to trees and tree uses (OK, maybe not, but the honey locust comment made me think about it :^)), a concept emerging in Portland is "naturescaping", or landscaping with native plants that are already adapted to the local soils, climate, insects, and wildlife. The theory is that native plants will need less water, fertilizer, pesticides and herbicides to thrive. They also support the local pollinators (and vice-versa) as well as providing food and cover for local birds and wildlife. I first came across this idea in Sarah Stein's book, Noah's Garden. She articulately describes her journey into restoration and healing of her native Connecticut landscape. Portland's local governments now sponsor naturescaping workshops where you can find out all about the various plant options, and who sells the plants, and other safe or natural gardening supplies. Their interest is in reducing non-point surface water pollution that flows into local streams. Gardeners have taken to naturecaping, such that The Oregonian's Home and Garden weekly section runs articles and how-to advice about it. Our local landscape companies that specialize in naturescaping are very busy, and traffic at the demonstration gardens is up. A local seed company has introduced "Fleur de Lawn", a mix of yarrow, buckwheat, clover, daisy and grass that doesn't require any fertilizer or chemicals to look great. Naturescaping is really a radical departure from the idea that any plant from anywhere in the world is appropriate for the garden if you like it and can get it to grow, by fair means or foul. My own favorite part of naturescaping has been learning about native pollinators. Thanks to Brian Griffin at Knox Cellars in Bellingham, WA, a herd of Mason bees will be taking care of pollinating our neighborhood next sping. Most satisfying. Trees are a difficult issue, because what city folks generally want to plant are trees that are ultra-convenient: small, don't heave up the pavement, have tiny leaves that don't clutter up the yard or block drains, don't drop yecchy gooey fruits or sap, don't attract aphids, don't drop branches during wind and ice storms, have compact form that doesn't scrape parked cars and trucks or whack unsuspecting pedestrians...yaddada yaddada. Few of the native trees fit these criteria. Our neighhborhood is naturescaped with many 100'+ tall firs, cedars and hemlocks, and they are, however handsome, a constant nuisance or threat--imagine a car speared by an ice-jacketed fir branch that has fallen broken-end first. Our electricity has gone out for as long as a week during ice storms when the firs have rained branches down on the power lines running through the alleys. The firs are trying to turn the place back into a forest! So Honey Locusts, which do meet most of the above criteria, are a popular landscape tree. They are on the City of Portland's approved list of street trees. But they are not native to our local flora. Trees like Honey Locusts illustrate the dilemma, between preference and convenience and the natural ecosystems that can be a hassle to live with. Mature trees are at a premium for landscaping new commercial developments where they want instant gratification, so there are companies that have bought machines that can roll up to a big tree and cut it free of the ground, roots and all, at a stroke. Then the tree is trucked to the new site and replanted. Perhaps this only a Big City phenomenon? Best, Mike >Hi Sacie, > >>From what I know of the species you ask about: > >I believe honey locust is the species my father-in-law used for fence >posts 50 years ago on their farm. They are still in near mint condition. >I know the grain in the wood is really wild, and difficult to make any >lumber out of. > >Osage orange is sought after up here as a material for making tools. > >White oak has quite good rot resistancy. We spec it when we are doing any >outdoor timber framing. Red oak is more susceptable to bugs and rot, but >is most often used as trim lumber. Kind of depends on the actual genus: >southern species are much weaker than northern. We will spec northern red >oak as critical structural members, splines, etc. > >Hickory is useful as a finish lumber. I've seen some beautiful (and >durable) hickory floors. Also tough as nails- good for tool (axe, etc) >handles. > >As with all "do it yourself" lumbering, it's important to have saw logs >worthy of the time, effort, and expense of sawing. I do a fair amount of >this. In fact I have to go to Minnesota next month to take down two 50 >year old black walnuts, which I will have rift sawn by a guy with a >portable bandsaw mill. I plan to sticker and air dry it in my in-law's >barn for a few years, rather than paying for kiln drying. > >I'm interested to hear of other responses on this subject. > >Chris Koehn >Top Ridge Homes >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Earth Smart Program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 5 20:04:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA26226 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 20:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA18600 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 20:03:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25507; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 19:59:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Dec 1997 19:55:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA25238 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 19:55:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25234 for ; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 19:55:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mp3.ampsc.com (mp3.ampsc.com [207.102.161.111]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA07799; Fri, 5 Dec 1997 17:11:00 -0800 Message-ID: <3488A326.E23@ampsc.com> Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 16:58:15 -0800 From: Richard Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rabson/Newman CC: GreenBuilding Listserver , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: efficient framing manual References: <199712051330_MC2-2AD2-A864@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 749 Rabson/Newman wrote: > > Once upon a time I had a small manual on energy-efficient framing techniques > that covered such things as insulated headers and corners, caulking, etc. I > have lost the book, and can't even figure out where I got it originally. > > Can anyone suggest where I could find a copy of such a manual? > > Thanks, > > George > > ---------------------------- > George L. Newman > Hartwood, VA USA > wordsandmusic@compuserve.com > ---------------------------- > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ In Canada, it would be Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, or the National Research Council, in the USA, your housing and housing research authorities. The Insulation Mfg Associations will have some too, but never ask for advice about snake oil from the snake oil salesman. Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 6 08:40:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA02202 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:40:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA13777 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:40:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08453; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:35:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:31:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA08251 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:31:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.177]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA08247 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:31:17 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey Message-ID: <13a4c68a.3488e764@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:49:21 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: wordsandmusic@compuserve.com Subject: Re: GBlist: efficient framing manual Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 750 In a message dated 12/5/97 7:23:10 PM, George L. Newman wrote: >Once upon a time I had a small manual on energy-efficient framing techniques > >that covered such things as insulated headers and corners, caulking, etc. I > >have lost the book, and can't even figure out where I got it originally. > > >Can anyone suggest where I could find a copy of such a manual? > > > >Thanks, > > >George > >---------------------------- > >George L. Newman > >Hartwood, VA USA > >wordsandmusic@compuserve.com > >---------------------------- Don't know if this is what you mean, but there is a compact spiral bound manual published by both EEBA and Building Science Corp. (written by Joe Lstiburek), called "Builder's Guide." Three versions are available: Cold Climate, Hot Climate and Mixed Climate. There are numerous diagrams and illustrations as well as informative text on optimum value engineered framing systems, insulation, caulking details and a host of other subjects having to do with efficiency, performance, moisture and air flows in buildings. I consider these books to be indispensible. Copies are available from Joseph Lstiburek, P. Eng. Building Science Corp. 70 Main Street Westford, MA 01886 (508) 589-5100 Copies can be ordered from the website: www.buildingscience.com A similar, but slightly thinner manual is "State Energy Code Builder's Field Guide" published by the Washington State Energy Office with funding from Bonneville Power Administration and the Dept. of Energy. The purpose of this guide is to cover residential construction under the WA State Energy and Indoor Air Quality Codes. The WSEC toll-free Technical Assistance line is 800-235-TA4U, 8 AM to 5 PM, M- F, Pacific Time. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant Berkeley, CA IAQKibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 6 11:00:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA03242 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:00:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA18216 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:59:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11729; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:55:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:51:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11351 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:50:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11339; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:50:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27432; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:52:07 -0700 Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:52:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Straube Cc: "Larsen Skakum, Trina(Facilities)" , GreenBuilding Listserver , "'strawbale@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Air Tigh Drywall Approach/Tyvek Tape? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 751 John: In the real world, we rarely use Tyvek on any project.The first air barrier is usually stucco (acrylic or 3 coats standard). The second air barrier (and the first condensing plane) is sheathing (ie. breathable Fiberbond) taped with red sheathing tape only at the joints. [NOTE: we would NEVER tape (with vapour impermeable red sheathing tape) OSB or plywood as may have been suggested below, since that constitutes an exterior vapour barrier. The third air barrier is the cellulose insulation and the last air barrier is the drywall. What I am looking for is a Tyvek or Typar tape that could be used over OSB or plywood joints. Does anyone know is this exists? Contrary to below, GASKETS are used and are an essential element of the ADA to deal with all the irregularities of theoretical evenness of wood/plywood components. I would like to see any printed references which discuss your suggestion of no gaskets. Also, I am not sure why and how anyone has ever been able to caulk the top of the drywall to the floor sheathing, as seems to have been suggested below. This impossibility (it would seem to me) must be quite a gymnastic feat to see. Also, further to below, Vapour Barrier Paint is definitely NOT "overkill" since a primer is needed, and when you are held accountable and liable in the real world it is better to be safe than sorry. We will continue to use this method as I originally stated. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, John Straube wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > >When using the ADA (Air-tight Drywall Approach) to replace standard poly > > AVB (air vapour barrier), gaskets must be used whenever there are dissimilar > > materials (ie. bottom plates, around windows and doors) in addition to a vapour > > barrier paint (also serves as a primer on exterior walls) and 2 coats of final > > paint as mentioned below. We have used this system for many years.Details and > > if you use Tyvek as the air barrier >Alternatively, many builders in our area are taping > the foam sheathing on the exteriro to provide the air barrier system. A > very robust and fault-tolerant system is the use of roofing plywood (or > OSB) as exterior sheathing, taped at the joints, and caulked at > windows/foundation interfaces. > > The ADA is a good system that, in most housing applications, does not > require gaskets, although this is what is often called for. >The top and bottom of > the drywall is caulked to the floor sheathing and Tyvek or similiar wraps > around the rim joists to connect up to the bottom caulking on the drywall. > This is easier to build and does away with the need for gaskets, which > most builders cant find. > > The vapour retrder paint replaces the vapour retarding function of the > poly, and while much better than poly, is often overkill. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 6 15:16:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA05774 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 15:16:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA01203 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 15:15:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA19889; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 15:11:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Dec 1997 15:06:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA19525 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 15:06:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19521 for ; Sat, 6 Dec 1997 15:06:05 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501 Message-ID: <4baba04.3489aef5@aol.com> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 15:00:50 EST To: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Lining Dug Wells Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 752 In a message dated 12/5/97 9:52:54 PM, you wrote: << I am intending to dig a shallow well (about 8-9 feet deep) come spring. I know how to dig it, I know how to pipe from it, I know how to pump from it, BUT>> -Speireag All I believe I know along this line is what I observed and did growing up in rural New York State. Many shallow wells in the farm and logging country I grew up in were lined with stone. The stones were generally selected for an oblong shape, somewhat flat on top and bottom. They were dry stacked from the bottom of the well in the shape of a cylinder (guess you'd be hard pressed to stack them from the top down). Laid as though they were all part of a load bearing arch, which I guess, in fact they were. Over the years, my family and neighbors removed many of the stone linings and replaced them with concrete well tiles. I observed on numerous occassions when the lid was lifted off a well that garter snakes, spotted adders and frogs liked the neighborhood formed by dry laid stone with convenient water. I have no speculation on disease causing organisms which might make the jump from reptile or amphibian to mammal. On a number of occassions, generally at camps in the Adirondack country, I helped to line a shallow wells with stones. The older men kind of liked to have the young fellows down in the bone-aching cold. The grayheads had us back fill around the outside of the stone ring with sand. The water came in cloudy for a while and then cleared up. Nobody I knew got sick from it, but I didn't know many people back then either. I don't know what the latest engineering and sanitary information on this stuff is, and I'd check that out with a sanitary engineer before I did one now. I like your idea of using a geotechnic fabric around the outside of the well. Put a lid on it that's secured well enough so kids can't get it open. Make sure theres no holes big enough for a rabbit or hare to get in or you'll have bad-dead-bunny water. If it happens, you'll know right away. It's a pretty aggressive smell. Let me know if you've got any questions. Good luck. - Terry Brennan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 7 12:46:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA16799 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:46:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09679 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:46:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14416; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:41:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:36:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14066 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:35:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from jupiter1.mae.ncsu.edu (jupiter1.mae.ncsu.edu [152.1.69.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14062 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:35:55 -0500 (EST) From: amlamp@jupiter1.mae.ncsu.edu Received: from karman.mae.ncsu.edu by jupiter1.mae.ncsu.edu (8.6.10/Garvin 02-28-95) id MAA06542; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:40:13 -0500 Posted-Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:40:13 -0500 Received: by karman.mae.ncsu.edu (5.65c/SMI-4.0) id AA21301; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:48:06 -0500 Message-Id: <199712071748.AA21301@karman.mae.ncsu.edu> Subject: GBlist: locating green builders To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:48:06 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 753 Hello I was wondering if anyone would know of any greenbuilders (or leads) in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia. I am a carpenter needing more fulfillment in my work than a mere paycheck. Thank you, Rick Scarfe ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 7 17:58:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA20479 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:58:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA07777 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:58:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22975; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:53:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:48:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA22661 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:48:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA22657 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:48:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-19.topher.net [208.199.183.225]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA18681 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:42:59 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199712072242.QAA18681@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: Subject: GBlist: Laundry Disk Research Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 16:49:36 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 754 I finally found that page I was looking for with a good deal of info on those laundry disks. I'm assuming that most have web access. If not let me know and I'll send the text. Regards, Paul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 7 21:13:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA22657 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:13:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA22370 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:13:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA28735; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:08:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:04:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA28498 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:04:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.167]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28494 for ; Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:04:02 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl Message-ID: <9d9ebd8.348b54d1@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 21:00:31 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Washing machines Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 755 ASKO, and I imagine other European H-axis washers, have the controls across the front which makes them better for handicap, able to be placed under a standard height counter (34.5"), and dryers can stack on them. ASKO even includes (free!) a kit to secure the dryer on the washer and the knockouts in the washer to wire the two together, such a deal! Rick Darfler, Cleveland Ave Assoc., Inc. Contractors, Ithaca, NY Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:15:55 -0500 (EST) From: Craig DeWitt Subject: GBlist: Re: Washing Machine Objections Do any of the H-axis washers have controls across the front? I think the "accessibility" potential of the H-axis washers is a benefit people are overlooking. Craig DeWitt AND Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 08:23:01 -0500 From: "Morse, Peter" Subject: GBlist: Washing machines As it happens, I am in the market for a washer and dryer right now. The space I have is such that I need to stack the two units, which appears to rule out the Maytag Neptune ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 8 09:31:25 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA29136 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:31:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA29369 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:30:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13906; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:25:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:20:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13058 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:20:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13054; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA136760; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:23:53 -0700 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 07:23:52 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Shengar Cc: Strawbale Listserver , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: GAP WRAP In-Reply-To: <6bbfb912.348a017b@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 756 Shengar: Can you or anyone else give me a lead for checking out the above? Does anyone have experience, contact name, phone # or e-mail address for/with this product? Any help would be appreciated. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Shengar wrote: > > Gap wrap 300-400 g/m sq. perms, i saw it on a housewrap web search do not > recall the site > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 8 15:03:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA04026 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:03:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA10729 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:03:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00145; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:58:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:54:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA29712 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:53:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA29708 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.20.124] (1Cust124.tnt5.bos2.da.uu.net [208.254.20.124]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA02587 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:58:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:58:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: livstruct@earthlink.net (Gregory Caplan) Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #467 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 757 Hi Folks... I wonder if anyone has a recommendation for a user friendly heating set back thermostat. Seems they've all gone digital. Can't find the Honeywell clock-dial Chronotherm anywhere. A single set back that's uniform throughout the week will be fine for my clients needs. Keep up the good work everyone! Gregory Amir Caplan Living Structures Co. ecological remodeling page 562-3307 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 8 15:07:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA04099 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:07:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA11549 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:06:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00612; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:01:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:57:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA29988 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:57:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA29974; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:57:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA25787; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:02:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 15:01:32 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Air Tigh Drywall Approach/Tyvek Tape? To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" cc: "Larsen Skakum, Trina(Facilities)" , GreenBuilding Listserver , "'strawbale@crest.org'" X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 758 On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > John: In the real world, we rarely use Tyvek on any project.The first Jorg, I was discussing the real world, the world outside my doors for a radius of a least 100 km and encompassing a population of over 5 million people. Just becasue my e-mail says that I have a UW research address, this is less than half of my time, and 1/4 of my income. I have been paid for work in the building industry for the last 15 years, and owned and operated a full-time and profitable construction business for 2 years in 91/92. My work, in your so-called real world, is now in consulting for large building projects (although my first love is housing, it is difficult to have a big impact on the tract builder or get well-paid as a onoe-on-one consultant). My research here allows me to direct housing design on a larger more diffuse level, informs me (keeps up my expertie in this fast-changing area) and maintains my contacts with leading researchers from around the world. To avoid missing the forest for the trees, I travel for several weeks a year to other countries, where I photo-document their practises and I also attend at least 2 international conferences on building performance per year. While YOU may not use Tyvek or other housewraps in Alta, a call to Dupont will point out that many, many people do in the milions of sqaure feet each year. In my area, it is also very common. It remains a viable material in all parts of North America and hence I mentioned it. > air barrier is usually stucco (acrylic or 3 coats standard). The second > air barrier (and the first condensing plane) is sheathing (ie. breathable > Fiberbond) taped with red sheathing tape only at the joints. [NOTE: we would > NEVER tape (with vapour impermeable red sheathing tape) OSB or plywood as may > have been suggested below, since that constitutes an exterior vapour barrier. > The third air barrier is the cellulose insulation and the last air barrier is > the drywall. You obviously have not been reading the posts on air barrier vs vapour barrier. Taping the joints of a 4 x 8' sheet with a 2" wide perfect vapour barrier has an almost insignificant effect on vapour diffusion, but a major infleunce on air flow. Secondly, it i inappropritate to label four layers in a wall as an air barrier. As Rob Tom pointed out a while back, it is an air barrier system, including joints that is needed. Where is the air barrier detailing in your celluslose insulation? And while cellulose does stop drafts it is ludicrous to consider it an air barrier! It is very effective at stopping dsrafts and eleminates convective loops as well. But part of a real air barrier system, no. The drywall is NOT an air barrier, but it can be made part of the system if you are careful with the details, e.g. the ADA. > What I am looking for is a Tyvek or Typar tape that could be used over OSB > or plywood joints. Does anyone know is this exists? I dont, and have explianed why it is not important or useful. > Contrary to below, GASKETS are used and are an essential element of the > ADA to deal with all the irregularities of theoretical evenness of > wood/plywood components. I would like to see any printed references which > discuss your suggestion of no gaskets. I agree that the classic ADA approach does use gaskets, and said as much in my post. However, things change and if you properly detail, you do not need to use gaskets except at electrical receptacles. I beleive you are confusing what you do with what is being done in areas beyond yours. > Also, I am not sure why and how anyone has ever been able to caulk the top of > the drywall to the floor sheathing, as seems to have been suggested below. >This impossibility (it would seem to me) must be quite a gymnastic feat >to see. The bottom of the drywall can, for a sub-contract price of $120, be sealed to the floor sheathing on the latest 1800 sf tract house I saw. The top of the drywall can easily be sealed, if necesary from a widely used piece of equipment here in Ontario. Its called a step ladder. No gymnastics necessary. It is Often conducted just before the gymnastics of taping the corner of the wall and ceiling drywall, from the same rolling scaffold. > > Also, further to below, Vapour Barrier Paint is definitely NOT "overkill" > since a primer is needed, and when you are held accountable and liable in > the real world it is better to be safe than sorry. We will continue to use > this method as I originally stated. I am a professional engineer (I have not including my titles or affiliations because I do not think they are that important) . Highly liable in the real world. In consulting (1/4 of my time, 1/2 of income), I split my work between new building product development and building failure diagnstics. These two areas are tightly wound up with litigation and liability everday. I cannot be sure, but I would wager I have been involved with more law cases, lawyers, judges, and liability than yourself. I do not rely on dogma, rule-of-thumb, or traditional (e.g since 1975) details. I actually can measure, in my lab, the vapour permeance of painted drywall or I can look in the literature and get values from a number sources. One of the best is from the Alberta Research Council. Then I actually analyze and design the enclosure. I do not need any more than 2 coats of latex for a very safe wall. If I, as many home builders do here, sheath my house with foil-faced polyisocyanurate I would demand poly, since the almost infinitely vapour resisant sheathing requires it. Brick veneer, foam sheathing, OSB, do not require VDR paint except in extreme climates. I can clearly explain this to a judge, and call many experts to back up the validity of my caculations. I would be interested in what calculations and tests you done to support your views. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 8 20:05:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA08493 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:05:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA24847 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:05:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA14199; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:56:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA13886 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:55:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.169]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13882 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:55:55 -0500 (EST) From: IdahoCFM Message-ID: <487cf468.348c95c1@aol.com> Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:32:08 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Exit signs Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 759 Anybody have any advice for alternative power sources for exit signs. Even with motion detectors and LED signs, I keep churning through massive amounts of batteries in these things. Has anybody seen a better way of effectively powering these things per code? Chris Meyer Parkwood Business Properties ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 8 20:56:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA09108 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:56:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA06521 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:55:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA16093; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:51:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:47:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15801 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:47:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15794 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:47:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA19866; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:50:21 -0700 Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:50:21 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: IdahoCFM Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Exit signs In-Reply-To: <487cf468.348c95c1@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 760 The 2 most efficient lighting for the above are: 1) electroluminescents 2) LEDS Both are available in either new or retrofit kits. Nuclear lights were rejected. In a recent recofit project of a 1989 50 story office tower the annual savings came to $5,500/year changing from incandescents to LEDS. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, IdahoCFM wrote: > Anybody have any advice for alternative power sources for exit signs. Even > with motion detectors and LED signs, I keep churning through massive amounts > of batteries in these things. Has anybody seen a better way of effectively > powering these things per code? > > Chris Meyer > Parkwood Business Properties > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 8 21:30:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA09513 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:30:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA14845 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:30:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17361; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:25:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:21:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17036 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17032 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:21:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from frazer (ip148.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.148]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA29544; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:25:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971209022223.0073a40c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 21:22:23 -0500 To: livstruct@earthlink.net (Gregory Caplan), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #467 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 761 re: Setback Tstats We like the Hunter Set n'Saves, primarily the II, since it monitors usage (or at least the call for heat). They keep changing the various models - so check them out - they run from $20 to $50. best, -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 8 21:46:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA09671 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:46:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA18617 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:45:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18054; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:41:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:37:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17739 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:37:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17733 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:37:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA00656 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:41:04 -0500 Message-id: <1579070@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 08 Dec 97 21:46:28 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Enviro-giving To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 762 GB Listers: I've been inspired by a colleague who tithes, that is, gives ten percent of her income away. So I'm looking to expand my own giving, which mostly is in my local area and/or region. As I thought about what criteria I could use, I came up with the dual criteria of 1) making a positive environmental impact and 2) helping make life better, in a direct manner, for the poorest segment of the world's population. Do any of you have suggestions of organizations which meet these criteria? My first take was Solar Cooker Intn'l, the organization which gets very low cost solar cookers to people in Africa. Please reply to me directly so as to not clutter up the list. Thanks Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 8 21:51:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA09730 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:51:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA20061 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:50:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18389; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:46:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:42:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18117 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18113 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:42:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA00888 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:45:58 -0500 Message-id: <1579114@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 08 Dec 97 21:51:24 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #467 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 763 --- You wrote: I wonder if anyone has a recommendation for a user friendly heating set back thermostat. Seems they've all gone digital. --- end of quoted material --- It's digital, but easy to use, and inexpensive - the Hunter Set'n'Save series. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 8 22:27:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA10080 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:27:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA28852 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:26:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA19609; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:22:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:16:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19309 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:16:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19305; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:16:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA24668; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:21:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:20:58 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Advanced Framing To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: greenbuilding-digest@crest.org, wordsandmusic@compuserve.com, IAQKibbey@aol.com X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199712070700.CAA04792@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 764 For those of you who do not want to get a book on the topic, try the best web site I know, for holistic, energy-efficient, healthy, and durable housing. It can be found at: www.its-canada.com/reed It is available as a 300 pg document for $40 Canadian. For those who want a short, cheap, and concise document, try one from CMHC: "Energy-Efficient Housing Construction", 1985, ISBN 0-662-11907-X Which, while confused between air and vapour barriers, provides otherwise excellent details. There are about a dozen other building related design books, but those are some of the best for residentail framing details in super-insulated construction ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 8 23:53:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA11212 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA18658 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:53:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA22637; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:48:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:43:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA22311 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:43:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA22306 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:43:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dial-222-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.222]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA30476; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:47:36 -0500 Message-ID: <348CCD5F.1296@together.net> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 23:47:27 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Exit signs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 765 Jorg: RE: Your comment: "In a recent retrofit project of a 1989 50 story office tower the annual savings came to $5,500/year changing from incandescents to LEDS." Bet there were big time labor savings of lamp replacements, too! Allow me to ramble on, please.... I recall a hospital chief electrician complaining about frequent 40w incandescent lamp burnouts in exit fixtures. This guy had close to one million square feet of facility. He said he had tried the long life, heavy duty industrial service type incandescent lamps. The kind I often replaced, during a previuos lifetime as a deckhand, while working on Mississippi River towboats where the severe engine and screw (prop) vibrations made the deck feel like a $.25 (U.S.) foot massage coin machine. These bulbs are rated for a high voltage.......... energy efficiency are the pits. The electrical engineer I was with advised him to use those new-fangled, expensive PL Compact type lamps (this was late 1980's), explaining the 9,000 hour life vs. 1000 hours lamp life for what he was now using. The electrical engineers' comment about reducing wattage load down to about 1/3 of what it then was went right over the facility chief electricians head......... he clearly only saw the solution to his maintenance problem. The energy savings would simply be gravey with which he could make his case in competing for limited facility budget resources. He was a very happy camper. I even seem to recall him later bragging about the energy savings.... in reality a minute percentage of total facility energy use, relative to other loads (lighting in Hospiotals is about 10% of the pie), that the exit lights would not even be a blip in a hospital energy use chart. But, as any experienced backpacker will tell you, "Watch the ounces and the pounds take care of themselves". :-) Tom Anderson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 9 00:00:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA11285 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:00:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA20071 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:00:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA23010; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:56:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:52:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA22776 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:52:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from deimos.spiretech.com (0@deimos.spiretech.com [207.173.200.226]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA22771 for ; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:52:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.173.204.43 (ppp-43-portland.spiretech.com [207.173.204.43]) by deimos.spiretech.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA15812; Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:49:47 -0800 Message-ID: <348CCF9D.66E7@spiretech.com> Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 23:26:59 -0800 From: David Heslam Reply-To: heslamd@spiretech.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: GAP WRAP References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 766 Jorg: I have used Gap Wrap around doors and windows on one project here in Oregon. The product is about 4 inches wide and has adhesive on each edge. It is easily applied with the proprietary dispenser (basically a very large pacgaging tape dispenser). Because the adhesive is only at the edges, some tape is still needed to close off airflow at the end of each strip of Gap Wrap. It is important to press the paper FIRMLY into place. At this project, the adhesive did not hold in all spots until the stucco was applied, requiring reapplication in some areas. This was probably due to unclean surfaces, not the quality of the adhesive, but could have resulted from not enough pressure during application. I do not have any comparative data as to how this material performs. I purchased it through the local Marvin window wholesaler, Wood Windows Distributors Inc. (503) 684-3528. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 9 03:06:31 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA13031 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 03:06:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA28131 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 03:05:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA27153; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 03:01:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:57:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA26890 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA26886 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ssh.ampsc.com (ssh.ampsc.com [207.102.161.104]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA28541; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:15:04 -0800 Message-ID: <348CFA76.2BB6@ampsc.com> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 23:59:50 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Advanced Framing References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 767 John Straube wrote: > > For those of you who do not want to get a book on the topic, try the best > web site I know, for holistic, energy-efficient, healthy, and durable > housing. It can be found at: > www.its-canada.com/reed > It is available as a 300 pg document for $40 Canadian. > > For those who want a short, cheap, and concise document, try one from CMHC: > "Energy-Efficient Housing Construction", 1985, ISBN 0-662-11907-X > Which, while confused between air and vapour barriers, provides otherwise > excellent details. > > There are about a dozen other building related design books, but those > are some of the best for residentail framing details in super-insulated > construction > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube > Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group > University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg > Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 > UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 > Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 > x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ You are right on! the REED site is excellent. Thank you for reminding me. Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 9 08:01:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA15503 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:01:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA21035 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:01:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA01732; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:57:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:52:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA01464 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:52:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01460 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:52:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA10147 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:56:16 -0500 Message-id: <1581610@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 09 Dec 97 08:01:42 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #467 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 768 --- You wrote: t's digital, but easy to use, and inexpensive - the Hunter Set'n'Save series. > >Marc Rosenbaum Marc - do you have an address for the company? --- end of quoted material --- Hunter Fan Co. - 2500 Frisco Avenue, Memphis TN 38114 - 901 743-1360 They make the paddle fans also. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 9 08:07:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA15576 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:07:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA22200 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:07:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02042; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:03:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:59:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA01794 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:59:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.172]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01790 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 07:59:09 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:02:47 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: GB List: Gap Wrap Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 769 Jorg In a message dated 12/9/97 8:08:49 AM, you wrote: > Can you or anyone else give me a lead for checking out the above? >Does anyone have experience, contact name, phone # or e-mail address for/with >this product? Any help would be appreciated. Gap Wrap distributed by Benjamin Obdyke. 800/346-7655. We have used it on many projects satisfactorily. The question comes up with the real world performance of TYVEK et. al. What really happens when you fill TYVEK full of nail holes from the siding. I can imagine that over time the holes enlarge enough to become a sieve through which much air flows. Is plywood that much worse than TYVEK (with the exception of the joints) hence the reason behind "Gap Wrap". I feel it works fine but I have no data to back this up. Perhaps Benjamin Obdyke might. If I have time I'll follow up with their specs. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc, Contractors Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 9 09:02:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA16119 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:02:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA03983 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:02:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03980; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:57:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:53:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA03676 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:53:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03672 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:53:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52490; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 06:56:29 -0700 Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 06:56:29 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: David Heslam Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: a better GAP WRAP In-Reply-To: <348CCF9D.66E7@spiretech.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 770 David: Thank you for your comments from the real world. Would it not be better if the above had a full adhesive backing rather than just strips as described? Does anyone have an e-mail address for a supplier or the manufacturer? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, David Heslam wrote: > > Jorg: I have used Gap Wrap around doors and windows on one project here > in Oregon. The product is about 4 inches wide and has adhesive on each > edge. It is easily applied with the proprietary dispenser (basically a > very large pacgaging tape dispenser). > > Because the adhesive is only at the edges, some tape is still needed to > close off airflow at the end of each strip of Gap Wrap. It is important > to press the paper FIRMLY into place. At this project, the adhesive did > not hold in all spots until the stucco was applied, requiring > reapplication in some areas. This was probably due to unclean surfaces, > not the quality of the adhesive, but could have resulted from not enough > pressure during application. > > I do not have any comparative data as to how this material performs. I > purchased it through the local Marvin window wholesaler, Wood Windows > Distributors Inc. (503) 684-3528. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 9 10:11:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA17409 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:11:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21563 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:10:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06799; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:06:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:02:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06477 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:01:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06473 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:01:51 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501 Message-ID: <5884a5a3.348d5dae@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:03:08 EST To: Caaradrbl@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: GB List: Gap Wrap Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 771 In a message dated 12/9/97 8:05:28 AM, you wrote: <> Thought I'd chime in with my experience with plywood as an air barrier. - Smoke testing hot air Model Tea solar collectors in '79, I was amazed to find smoke migrating through the wood of the first veneer layer along the glue layer and out the edges. Not surprisingly, it moved in the direction of the grain, probably through the sieve cells. Very small leakage. - Back in '82 or so, a contractor I was working with glued all the exterior waferboard sheathing up with PL400. During fan testing it was clear this made a real tight wall. - Around the same time, a class I was teaching built a setup so we could pressure test 4 foot by 4 foot wall sections. We found that 1) sheetrock could make a good air barrier 2) plywood could make a good air barrier 3) polyethylene could make a good air barrier 4) Tyvek could make a good air barrier 5) if you overlapped the the Tyvec 12 inches or so, taping the joint had no measureable effect 6) fiberglass batts reduced airflow, but were clearly not airtight 7) if you got the wall pretty tight, using one method, adding another air tight layer didn't make the wall much tighter, but adds defense-in-depth 8) electrical outlets leak, but can be sealed in a variety of ways Plywood has a pretty low perm rating so condensation potential needs to accounted for when you start using it as an air barrier. Condensation prediction using Ficke's law (as outlined in the current ASHRAE handbook of fundamentals) often predicts condensation in situations where I seldom see it. It ignores advective flow and moisture storage in materials. Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 9 10:33:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA17701 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:33:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA26560 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:32:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07843; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:28:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:24:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07556 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:24:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07549 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:24:15 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501 Message-ID: <5884a5aa.348d627b@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:23:37 EST To: nadav@ebuild.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Good forestry and wood use Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 772 In a message dated 11/16/97 10:16:19 AM, you wrote: <<>This discussion brings me back to an earlier one on the appropriateness >of wood usage in construction compared to agricultural product usage. It >has been an unfounded suspicion and bias of mine that the maintenance >and selective cutting of forests (the reality of which is another >discussion) might contain the indirect potential for greater >environmental benefits than other materials which may initially seem to >embody less energy. I don't have any data to back this up either, but I've often argued that wood from certified, well-managed forests is an excellent choice of material, because its use helps support an operation that is committed to maintaining a healthy and diverse forest. This is one of the few areas where use of a material may in fact represent a net environmental positive rather than just a lesser of evils in terms of lifecycle impacts.>> Hi, I'd like to add a couple thoughts to this thread. These are things that were pretty much whipped into me by my woodland ecology professor. The nearer a community of plants, animals, soil, rocks, air and water is to a climax condition, the better it is at providing itself with nutrients, water, and protection from outbreaks of J growth species (which we tend to think of as pests). To my mind, a climax community is as near to sustainable as it gets on this planet. Climax communities can be forests, swamps, estuaries, grasslands and alpine tundra. Here's a point that always struck me as important, the nearer to a climax community we produce food and fiber products, the lower the amount of energy and mass we have to add, but the fraction of energy and mass passing through the system available to produce food and fiber products is also lower. As more energy goes into maintaining the community, less is available for primary growth. I find this quite beautiful. -Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 9 12:35:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02210 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:35:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA08681 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:34:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12267; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:50:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:46:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA11814 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:46:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from bcs.bccom.com (bcs.bccom.com [204.255.144.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11806 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:46:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (tc109.bccom.com [204.255.145.109]) by bcs.bccom.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA08884 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:50:10 -0500 Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:50:10 -0500 Message-Id: <199712091750.MAA08884@bcs.bccom.com> X-Sender: rfried@bccom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Rona Fried Subject: Re: GBlist: Good forestry and wood use Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 773 Terry said: >I don't have any data to back this up either, but I've often argued that >wood from certified, well-managed forests is an excellent choice of >material, because its use helps support an operation that is committed to >maintaining a healthy and diverse forest. Certified, well-managed forests: what's the definition? Unfortunately, there are many and it's very hard to know where your wood is coming from. You'd have to know the particular forester's philosophy and agree with it! From what I've heard, even FCS's certification requirements would fall short of what many people consider sustainable. I've walked through forests that had a big "sustainably managed" sign that looked like a bomb hit it. I don't disagree with the goal, but it's sticky. It's true that growing kenaf or another substitute crop means growing a monoculture farm crop as opposed to a forest which supports biodiversity. Many forests, at this stage of the game, though, should be left alone. Any intrusion is too much. And converting what's now farmland anyway to kenaf-like crops wouldn't be taking away from forest lands. If farms were converted to forests ... that's another story. It's a complicated subject. Rona Fried Sustainable Business Network http://www.envirolink.org/sbn ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 9 12:35:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02215 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:35:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA08686 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:34:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12066; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:48:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:44:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA11677 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:44:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo06.mx.aol.com (imo06.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.86]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11673 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:44:09 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1 Message-ID: <6dc4d22e.348d7637@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:47:49 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: A New Thread: "What's A Green Window"? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 774 Season's Greetings To All. My brief hiatus from the list has allowed a bit of thinking on another small aspect of green building: What is a "green window"? While I think that we can get a pretty good handle on the energy side of the equation (and remember, the making of glass is very energy intensive), I wonder how much thought has gone into better defining the decision making surrounding a green window choice… To that end I will offer some fodder on the subject and hope that those of you that have given this some thought will share with the rest of us. Now for the fodder… add as appropriate: Green windows: 1) are energy efficient a) in production (energy efficient and managed production facilities) b) in performance (right for the job and the climate, both heating AND cooling) 2) are made from green materials a) from certified renewable woods? b) from recyclable materials (how much? what percentage? by weight?) c) from recycled materials (how much? what percentage? by weight?) 3) have long lives a) 50 years? 100 years? (Am I being too ambitious here? Should windows last longer than our houses?) And another thing... are these issues different when looking at NEW construction versus replacement/retrofit? Just how hard IS it to reuse old frames? Glass? Hardware? And how hard would it be to recycle these materials in retrofit/replacement jobs? Is anyone doing this now? (With NO recycling that would men that about 20 million windows PER YEAR are going into landfills... Does anyone know what percentage of these might be being recycled/reused or otherwise reclaimed?) Oh well, this is a start to get the thread going… Chris Mathis MCSquared 5249 Columbia Road Columbia, MD 21044 301-596-1931 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 9 12:49:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02415 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:49:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12166 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:48:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15014; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:44:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:40:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14513 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:39:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.177]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14508 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:39:46 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:38:35 EST To: IdahoCFM@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Exit signs Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 775 Check out the EPA web site for ENERGY STAR... they have been involved in massive exit sign replacement over the past few years... very successful.... as part of the Green Lights and Energy Star programs. www.energystar.gov or call 1-888-STAR-YES. Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 9 12:52:05 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02490 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:52:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12913 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:51:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15271; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:47:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:43:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14902 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:43:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14896 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:43:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA23704 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:46:41 -0500 Message-id: <1585181@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 09 Dec 97 12:51:44 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: A New Thread: "What's A Green Window"? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 776 Thanks for starting this, Chris. In my work, I vastly prefer windows which can be reglazed easily, without throwing the sash away (a la Andersen) The Canadian fiberglass windows are the bst I've seen, and can be reglazed as glazing either fails or new miracle materials come out. Glass should be pretty reusable, perhaps somewhat downcycled to a less energy-critical use, and certainly can be recycled. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 9 13:20:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA03110 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:20:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA20784 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:20:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16597; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:15:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:11:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA16221 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:11:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16215 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:11:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.87] (pa-ppp02.hevanet.com [204.119.60.87]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22077 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:15:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <6dc4d22e.348d7637@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:56:39 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: A New Thread: "What's A Green Window"? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA16217 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 777 Hi, Chris-- This is an excellent question. Within my own working lifetime, I have seen standard windows go from single-glazed + wood frames to double-glazed + metal frames to double-glazed + low-e + gas fill + wider spacer + vinyl or wood frames. Windows that met code ten years ago, are now illegal. This change has resulted from convergence of government leadership (BPA, Oregon, Washington, Idaho and Montana energy offices; NFRC standardized ratings; FHA acceptance), manufacturers investing in changes that reduced costs, consumer experience with better windows, builder confidence (vinyl won't melt), and so on. OR, WA, many places in ID and MT--code minimum is U = 0.40. Yet, our code window has an R-value of 2.5 in an envelope with R-38 ceilings, R-21 walls and R-30 crawls or R-15 slabs. Windows are still a weak link in the envelope. So they probably will continue to evolve. In Portland, where almost half of construction waste is recycled, we can't recycle old windows because they can't be reused in remodels, and no one wants to take them apart, and recyclers don't seem to want window glass except for specialized items like tempered glass. So a lot of window material is getting landfilled. As windows evolve, will this continue to be the case? If so are we improving energy efficiency, comfort and health at the expense of dumping a lot of perfectly sound materials that are just in the wrong arrangements? How green is that? And what's the payback on today's new superwindow if it's considered substandard in ten years and people are yanking them out? Maybe there could be a window deposit, like a bottle deposit, so you could return your windows to the store/manufacturer for credit. And the clever manufacturers would figure out how to easily disassemble their windows so the components can be reused or recycled. Nice fantasy for the holidays, eh? Mike >Season's Greetings To All. > >My brief hiatus from the list has allowed a bit of thinking on another small >aspect of green building: What is a "green window"? While I think that we >can get a pretty good handle on the energy side of the equation (and remember, >the making of glass is very energy intensive), I wonder how much thought has >gone into better defining the decision making surrounding a green window >choiceÖ > >To that end I will offer some fodder on the subject and hope that those of you >that have given this some thought will share with the rest of us. Now for the >fodderÖ add as appropriate: > >Green windows: >1) are energy efficient > a) in production (energy efficient and managed production facilities) > b) in performance (right for the job and the climate, both heating AND >cooling) > >2) are made from green materials > a) from certified renewable woods? > b) from recyclable materials (how much? what percentage? by weight?) > c) from recycled materials (how much? what percentage? by weight?) > >3) have long lives > a) 50 years? 100 years? (Am I being too ambitious here? Should windows >last longer than our houses?) > >And another thing... are these issues different when looking at NEW >construction versus replacement/retrofit? Just how hard IS it to reuse old >frames? Glass? Hardware? And how hard would it be to recycle these >materials in retrofit/replacement jobs? Is anyone doing this now? (With NO >recycling that would men that about 20 million windows PER YEAR are going into >landfills... Does anyone know what percentage of these might be being >recycled/reused or otherwise reclaimed?) > >Oh well, this is a start to get the thread goingÖ > >Chris Mathis >MCSquared >5249 Columbia Road >Columbia, MD 21044 >301-596-1931 >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Earth Smart Program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 9 17:57:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA07431 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:57:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA08047 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA28102; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:52:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:47:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA27719 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:47:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27715 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:47:14 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <4696861d.348dcabf@aol.com> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 17:47:42 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: GAP WRAP Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 778 Why Gap wrap. Any disadvantage to regular red builders tape. The stuff seems to stick pretty well. What's the difference, other than another darn thing to chase? Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 9 19:31:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA08511 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:31:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA02640 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:31:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01681; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:26:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:22:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01393 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:22:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01389 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:22:22 -0500 (EST) From: LitHowie Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:19:57 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Window Selecting Advice Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 779 Okay, I've read gobs of info on how to select the most energy-efficient windows based on house location and orientation thanks to this web site & others. I'm building a somewhat passive-solar/passive cooled house in an area of high humidity. Cooling is just as important as heating here as we have as slightly more cooling days as heating days per year. I am willing to invest what it takes to get the best energy-efficiency. I'm now comparing NFRC specs for different manufactured windows and have 3 questions; 1) As far as summer solar heat gain is concerned do I need to consider SHGC ratings if I will be using wide overhangs and tree shading during the summer on the south side of the house? 2) Is there any heat gain through low-e, argon filled windows other than from sunlight reaching the pane? That is would the hot surrounding outside air temperature transfer through the panes? 3) Can I just concentrate on getting decent low U-value, high SHGC-value, high visable light transmittance, and low air-filtration on the south? Any advice is appreciated...Thanks in advance for taking the time to respond. Kate Howard ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 9 23:38:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA11206 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:38:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA04036 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:37:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10224; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:33:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:27:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA09912 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.2.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09908 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:27:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (rvl-md11-43.ix.netcom.com [206.217.107.171]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA27732 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:31:29 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971209232959.006d7384@m5.sprynet.com> X-Sender: bhoward2@m5.sprynet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 23:30:41 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Bion Howard Subject: GBlist: Re: HP Thermostats [GBdigest V1 #468] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 780 I like the Hunter AutoTemp II unit, which is fairly accurate according to some low-grade monitoring I have done, affordable and widely available. The cost of Honeywell thermostats has really gone up, but they are quite good. ---------------------- At 02:00 AM 12/9/97 -0500, you wrote: >greenbuilding-digest Tuesday, December 9 1997 Volume 01 : Number 468 --------- Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:58:09 -0800 (PST) From: livstruct@earthlink.net (Gregory Caplan) Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #467 Hi Folks... I wonder if anyone has a recommendation for a user friendly heating set back thermostat. Seems they've all gone digital. Can't find the Honeywell clock-dial Chronotherm anywhere. A single set back that's uniform throughout the week will be fine for my clients needs. Keep up the good work everyone! Gregory Amir Caplan Living Structures Co. ecological remodeling page 562-3307 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact: Bion Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology bhoward2@sprynet.com Web: ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 9 23:58:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA11915 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:58:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA09381 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:58:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10835; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:53:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:49:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA10553 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:49:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA10549 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 23:49:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA13010 for ; Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:53:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-43.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.171) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma012906; Tue Dec 9 22:52:29 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971209235139.006cd790@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: eeb98ord@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 23:51:41 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion Howard (EEBA)" Subject: GBlist: Exist signs / why not PV ? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 781 Mr. Meyer: From: Bion Howard Why not consider Building Integrated Photo Voltaic (BI-PV) power for exit signs, and for that matter security lighting, exterior lights for entranceways and parking lots, etc. A building owner could start small with BI-PV on such loads, then bank the savings and expand the PV system in the future since they are modular. Recommend you explore the net, since there is alot of PV info out there. Check out: Solar Design Associates (MA) Photocomm (Arizona) Solarex (Maryland) Seimens Solar NREL PV Directory and these are just for starters. (We do technology searches for our clients.) ---------------------------------------- you wrote: Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:32:08 EST From: IdahoCFM Subject: GBlist: Exit signs Anybody have any advice for alternative power sources for exit signs. Even with motion detectors and LED signs, I keep churning through massive amounts of batteries in these things. Has anybody seen a better way of effectively powering these things per code? Chris Meyer, Parkwood Business Properties ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact: Bion Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology bhoward2@sprynet.com Web: ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 09:17:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA19099 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:17:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA29732 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:16:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22000; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:12:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:07:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21634 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:07:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21630 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:07:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from pm1a1.bratt.sover.net (pm1a1.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.131]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA20206; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:11:33 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: pike.sover.net: pm1a1.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.131] didn't use HELO protocol Message-ID: <348E33FB.162C@sover.net> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 22:17:31 -0800 From: Andrea Warchaizer Reply-To: springpt@sover.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IdahoCFM CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Exit signs References: <487cf468.348c95c1@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 782 Austin Innovations (512)339-6765 sells an exit sign that uses the same type of lighting technology as in Timex "Indiglo" watches. They say that the light source never needs replacement, and uses "pennies worth of electricity per year". Don't know if their exit signs have been code approved. They also make night lights and lighted switches. Andrea Warchaizer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 09:23:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA19158 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:23:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA01134 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:22:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22584; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:18:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:14:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22110 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:14:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22098; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:14:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA68730; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:17:07 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:17:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Mike O'Brien" Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: reused windows, doors & glass In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 783 Mike: Further to your notes of below: 1) there is a market for reused windows outside of code restrictions ie. coldframes, outbuildings, workshops, agricultural buildings, etc. 2) in many cities windows are recylced at local building recycling centers 3) used windows can perform very useful internal functions on new homes. In our home/office we have several reused windows (ie. between passive solar greenhouse and dining room, hallway SunPipe area and north bedrooms, etc.), many reused doors (ie. cool closet, pantry, greenhouse, office, showroom, bathrooms, etc.) and reused glass (ie. upper kitchen cupboards, built-in light table/countertop, bathroom window). In addition, glass block can also easily be reused for interior applications. 4) since external windows are the weak link as mentioned below, that is why we have our R-17 prototype window. Hopefully we will soon supercede this with an R-20 window. Simulations are complete, design and details not. Therefore, with green intentions and imaginative design,there are many (but limited) real-world applications for reused windows, doors and glass, with many advantages, without compromising performance, safety or privacy. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Mike O'Brien wrote: >Windows that met code ten years ago, are now illegal. > > Yet, our code window has an R-value of 2.5 in an envelope with R-38 > ceilings, R-21 walls and R-30 crawls or R-15 slabs. Windows are still a > weak link in the envelope. So they probably will continue to evolve. > > In Portland, where almost half of construction waste is recycled, we can't > recycle old windows because they can't be reused in remodels, and no one > wants to take them apart, and recyclers don't seem to want window glass > except for specialized items like tempered glass. So a lot of window > material is getting landfilled. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 09:37:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA19273 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:37:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA04814 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:37:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23644; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:32:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:28:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23235 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23230 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:28:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA126196; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:31:36 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:31:35 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Andrea Warchaizer Cc: IdahoCFM , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Exit signs In-Reply-To: <348E33FB.162C@sover.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 784 Further to the note of below, electroluminescents use about 1-3% of the electricity compared to incandescents, if I remember correctly. We have worked with Austin Innovations for some time and are pleased with their products. They have an EXIT LIGHT RETROFIT kit. Only Green (and yellow for night lights), not red is available. Code requirements vary from state to state and province to province. However, green seems to be better in emergency cases (visibility restricted by smoke). _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Andrea Warchaizer wrote: > > Austin Innovations (512)339-6765 sells an exit sign that uses the same > type of lighting technology as in Timex "Indiglo" watches. They say that > the light source never needs replacement, and uses "pennies worth of > electricity per year". Don't know if their exit signs have been code > approved. They also make night lights and lighted switches. > > Andrea Warchaizer > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 09:58:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA19507 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:58:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA10389 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:57:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25048; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:53:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:49:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24556 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:49:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV (dcsmtp.wictok7.epa.gov [161.80.160.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24551 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:49:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:48:16 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:40:34 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT To: IdahoCFM@aol.com, RCMathis1@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Exit signs -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 785 A more precise URL for the exit signs is: http://www.epa.gov/exitsigns.html Steve O. >>> RCMathis1 12/09/97 12:38pm >>> Check out the EPA web site for ENERGY STAR... they have been involved in massive exit sign replacement over the past few years... very successful.... as part of the Green Lights and Energy Star programs. www.energystar.gov or call 1-888-STAR-YES. Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 11:05:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA20551 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:05:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA29844 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:05:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00022; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:00:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:56:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29582 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:56:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29578 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:56:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14131; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:58:21 -0500 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-123-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.123]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA13752; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:58:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971210105923.006b4054@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:59:23 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Green Old Windows Cc: gilbergm@alpha.nsula.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 786 Responding to the following: "And another thing... are these issues different when looking at NEW construction versus replacement/retrofit? Just how hard IS it to reuse old frames? Glass? Hardware? And how hard would it be to recycle these materials in retrofit/replacement jobs? Is anyone doing this now? (With NO recycling that would men that about 20 million windows PER YEAR are going into landfills... Does anyone know what percentage of these might be being recycled/reused or otherwise reclaimed?)" I recently worked on a study of energy impacts of energy imprvoements to old windows. We tested air leakage rates and estimated window infiltration and annual oeprating costs for infiltration and non-infiltration heating only losses, on-site for 150 windows, about half original old double hung wood windows, and half with a wide variety of energy treatments, from caulk-the-top-sash and put cam locks on the bottom sash and make sure the storm is closed TO complete replacement, and many treatemtns in between. The short version of the story is that air leakage can be reduced to fairly close to the level of air leakage in new double hung windows with a variety of strategies. If you have a storm window, you have double glass, so unless the new or replacement window or sash has low-e, you're doing pretty well on that score, too, with a decent window rehab. By the way, the cheapy retrofit mentioned above was as tight as many much more expensive rehabs. There are a lot of other reasons that could lead one to replace (as opposed to rehab) sash or windows besides energy: ease of operability for family or elderly housing, lead paint removal, reduction in maintenance costs, egress, to mention four. Home Energy recently ran a very short article on the study (Sep/Oct 97). A better printed summary and the very long full report on diskette are available from the National Center for Preservation Technology and Training, who funded it. (Vermont Energy Investment Corporation, Univ of Vermont School of Env Eng. and US Army Cold Regions Research and Engineering Lab were the main participants.) NCPTT can be reached at NCPTT@alpha.nsula.edu. One system we looked at that seems to adress the re-use issue, ease of operation, and some other issues, is a retrofit franchise, called Bi-Glass, 800-729-0742, where they come to the house, measure windows, bring back low-e (if you choose) sealed double glass units, take out the sash, rout out the putty, remove the glass and rout a little more of the sash, fit in the new glass, trim the sash for a vinyl jamb liner and re-install the sash. I like the re-use aspect, the low-e, the new ease of operation, the fact that you don't depend on the storm to stay closed (which it often doesn't). The cost is similar to a replacement sash and a bit more than a vinyl replacement window. Air leakage results were moderately good, but I suspect could be improved with some better detailing and perhaps with tighter toleraces on the window jamb liner installation. some of the interior storms worked quite well at reducing air leakage, and are available with low-e. -- An un-related comment: I am new to this site, and I find it very useful when people note WHERE they are from -- like what state/province/country. Not only is this fun, but it helps me, and I suspect others, understand the question being asked or the comments made and the biases or experience of the person writing. E-mail addresses are so anonymous. I would like to make a plea for persons to state their connection to place! Andy Shapiro, Energy Balance, Inc., Montpelier VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 11:08:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA20639 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:08:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA00782 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:08:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00382; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:03:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:59:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29835 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:59:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29828 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:59:36 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LwC02057; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:00:23 EST To: bhoward2@sprynet.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:04:28 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Re: HP Thermostats [GBdigest V1 #468] Message-ID: <19971210.101029.3630.15.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <3.0.32.19971209232959.006d7384@m5.sprynet.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-4,6-13,15-58 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 787 Strongly recommend the RCS TX10 ($199.95 list) or the Enerstat Slimline series ($119.95). Both of these units offer setback capability and will interface with a whole house control system. We use the RCS in our showroom and find it extremely durable and reliable. Both these manufacturers also make units that will communicate via RS232 and interface with a PC or other computer controllers. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Tue, 09 Dec 1997 23:30:41 -0500 Bion Howard writes: > >I like the Hunter AutoTemp II unit, which is fairly accurate according >to >some low-grade monitoring I have done, affordable and widely >available. > >The cost of Honeywell thermostats has really gone up, but they are >quite good. > >---------------------- >At 02:00 AM 12/9/97 -0500, you wrote: >>greenbuilding-digest Tuesday, December 9 1997 Volume 01 : >Number 468 >--------- >Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:58:09 -0800 (PST) >From: livstruct@earthlink.net (Gregory Caplan) >Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #467 > >Hi Folks... > I wonder if anyone has a recommendation for a user friendly >heating >set back thermostat. Seems they've all gone digital. Can't find the >Honeywell clock-dial Chronotherm anywhere. A single set back that's >uniform >throughout the week will be fine for my clients needs. > Keep up the good work everyone! > >Gregory Amir Caplan >Living Structures Co. >ecological remodeling >page 562-3307 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Contact: Bion Howard, Principal > Building Environmental Science & Technology > bhoward2@sprynet.com > Web: >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 11:36:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA21032 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:36:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA09583 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:36:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01856; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:31:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:27:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01483 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:27:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01476; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:27:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA14754; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:32:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:32:00 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Tyvek, Air barriers, tape To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Caaradrdbl@aol.com, TBren46501@aol.com cc: greenbuilding-digest@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199712100700.CAA13353@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 788 Some interesting and useful coments were made about Tyvek, air barriers, etc. Air tightness of materials such as plywood, painted drywall, polyethylene, Type 4 EXPS, etc. is so high they can be considered perfectly tight. A useful source for informance about the air permeance of materials is the CMHC sponsored research report by Air-Ins. But, air barriers are not materials or layers, they are parts of systems and hence the joints often govern the performance of the air barerier system, not the material. RE: the comment about real world Tyvek performance. I have tested walls in various situations with Tyvek and Typar housewraps. The concern metioned by Terry, that nail holes etc will elongate, is a very real one that one can observe. We have tested a 2 storey brick veneer wall with Tyvek and saw the Tyvek balloon outward until it began to bear on the brick veneers. Since we were measuring the stresses on the ties and the bricks, this repsonse threw us all for a loop and it took a few hours and an endoscope to figure out what was going on. Since then I have tested wall sections over a whole range of pressures, both exfiltration and infiltrtaion -- it is almost invarialy the case the air leakage out will occur more easilt than air leakage in, becuase as the Tyvek is pushed out, it is more leaky than when pressed tight against the inner framing. A second interesting result is that the flow exponent, n, e.g Q=C (delta P)^n can actually exceed 1! this is theoretically impossible unless the leakage area is increasing with pressure, which is what is hapening. All of these problems are not that signifiant with siding because the Tyvek is supported at close intervals by the siding. This behavior can be more of problem with claddings that are not attached at close spacings. CMHC has a report which discusses some of this "The Zero-Cavity and DPV Project" and also "The Ontario Wall Drying Project" I might add that the National Research Council of Canada does not consider Tyvek or similiar to be an air barrier -- theyleak too much. Their opinion is that the materials that make up the system must be almost impermeable. In my opinion, I continue to use Tyvek for low rise applications becuase the wide rolls and the tape allow one to get continuity of the air barrier, which is mre important in a practical sense than impermeability. CMHC report CR505.1, 1989 shows that strapped Tyvek on fibreboard has an air leakage of 0.488 lps @ 75 Pa, whereas unsealed shiplapped sheets of Styrfoam SM had aleakage of only 0.398 lps@75Pa even without selaing the joints. The difference is that workmanship and temeprture are critically important for the second system, and not for the first. In the same way, poly is tight in the lab, but in the field it is difficult to inspect for airtightness. This is one of the two big advatnages of th air tight drywall approach -- inspectability! An air barrier system (ABS) must meet firve criterion, in approximate order of importance (the order is my opinion) 1. Continuity -- this is the most important and dificult requirment 2. Strength -- The ABS must be able to take the design wind loads. This includes the fastening back to the structure. 3. Durability -- the ABS must be either have a design life equal to the enclosure or be easily replaceable. 4. Stiffness -- the ABS must be stiff enough to prevent deformations that will change the intended load transfer path or the air permeability and durability 5. Impermeability -- The ABS must be relatively impermeable to air. Research suggests K< 1.3 x 10^-6 m^3/m^2/Pa is acceptable as long as continuity is guaranteed. Tyvek marginally meets all of these requiremnts. Plywood sheathing meets all of the very well. The durability must be ensured by proper moisture design. Re: Terry's comment that Fickian diffusion calculated via Glaser rarely predicts rela-world performance. We have spent quite a bit of time investigating this with the aid or more sophisticated computer models, field easurments at our test facilty, etc. The biggest failing of the Glaser method is NOT the method, but the conditions chosen for analysis. People invariably choose extreme temperatures that occur for a few hours per month and multiply the results by the entire month. Secondly, the sun has a major influence on the wall. Typical solar exposed walls can spend several hours per day at 20 C above ambient. This serves to evaporate any condensed moisture and allow its drying out. Seven sunny days per January can completely change the predicted results. Finally, air leakage, as everyone knows, is more important that diffusion for wintertime wetting. Air leakage also drys walls under many conditions. MOIST, the program by Burch from NIST, does a nice first pass at the problem. More sophisticated programs, like WUFI, have been shown to be able to accurately predict the performance of walls when the proper material properties and boundary conditions are provided. Finally, some vapour resistance near the exteiror of a wall is good for vapour control in most walls. Too much near the inside (eg poly) combined with too little on the outside (e.g Tyvek) has been shown in field studies, modelling, and real life situations, to be a problem in summer conditions. Therefore, plywood on the exterior, taped with red sheathing tape, can make an excellent air barrier system, but for real performance and durability, insulating sheathing should be placed outside of it to stop thermal bridging and keep the studs and plywood safe from any exfiltration condensation that may still occur. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 12:12:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA21719 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA21161 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:12:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03468; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:07:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:03:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03144 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03140 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:03:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA09502 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:07:14 -0500 Message-id: <1596723@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 10 Dec 97 12:12:37 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Re: Enviro-giving To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 789 Several respondees asked me to post the responses I received. Here they are, somewhat edited. In addition, several folks suggested Habitat. Thanks! Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 12:28:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA21921 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:28:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25737 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:27:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04375; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:23:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:19:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03972 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:19:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03967 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:18:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA10344 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 12:22:45 -0500 Message-id: <1596926@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 10 Dec 97 12:28:05 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Old Windows To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 790 --- You wrote: One system we looked at that seems to adress the re-use issue, ease of operation, and some other issues, is a retrofit franchise, called Bi-Glass, 800-729-0742, where they come to the house, measure windows, bring back low-e (if you choose) sealed double glass units, take out the sash, rout out the putty, remove the glass and rout a little more of the sash, fit in the new glass, trim the sash for a vinyl jamb liner and re-install the sash. I like the re-use aspect, the low-e, the new ease of operation, the fact that you don't depend on the storm to stay closed (which it often doesn't). The cost is similar to a replacement sash and a bit more than a vinyl replacement window. --- end of quoted material --- I recommended this system to my neighbors, who have a lovely old (>200 years) colonial, and were going to do vinyl windows (shudder!). As it turned out, their sash were too far gone to rout. What the contractor did was buy *new* single glazed sash, which he then routed, etc., and put the low-e glass into. The completed job looks great! Cost was about $18K vs. $13K for the vinyl - not insignificant, but given the retained value of the home, I think worth it (they seem to agree). Note that here an additional cost was painting of the new sash, which I suspect needs to happen on BiGlass projects which re-use existing sash. I've also seen good jobs at fitting a second window inside the first, especially on projects where the wall got fatter from the inside. This works well, gives a great thermal break between glazing layers!, and with double hung windows enables the opening of the upper sash on the exterior and the inner sash on the interior, for ventilation without blowing the paper off the desk. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 13:14:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA22619 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:14:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA10076 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:14:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06900; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:09:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:05:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06605 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06601 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:05:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mnsinc.com (a0042.culpeper.mns.net [206.239.106.42]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA17677 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:09:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <348F0508.A8E11176@mnsinc.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:09:29 -0800 From: khassan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: residential sprinkler systems Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 791 I was thinking that with all the time, effort and expense that goes into making our projects, residential and otherwise, healthy places to live and work not much is said about protecting that investment. I would welcome any thoughts and ideas on residential sprinkler systems. I recognize the inherent value of such a system but I am interested what others may have to offer in regards to how they impact on "greenbuilding" Khalil c/o khassan@mnsinc.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 13:42:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA23108 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:42:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA17969 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08658; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:37:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:33:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA07839 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:32:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07832 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:32:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from eei.org by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: mail.eei.org [204.254.108.2]) id QQdtiw02779; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:37:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from WPDomain-Message_Server by eei.org with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:36:34 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:31:37 -0500 From: Harvey Sachs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: residential sprinkler systems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 792 Khalil c/o khassan@mnsinc.com raises an interesting point, but one that makes me again want to be the contrarian. Please check in with your insurance agent or other fire protection authorities (National Institute of Stds and Technology, local fire department...). I think you will find that the most common cause of single-family housing fires is smoking, particularly drunks falling asleep while smoking. I believe, but am not certain, that electrical malfunctions, children playing with fire, etc, are way lower. The point is simple: My definition of a "green" building would preclude smoking inside. I just don't know how to cost-effectively clean the air. If smoking is the biggie in house fires, and smoking isn't happening, then the cost-effectiveness of sprinklers is dubious. That's why I always felt irritated by the well-intentioned efforts of contractors to get schools retrofitted with sprinklers. On average (I am tolks) less than 1 person/year is killed in school fires, with probably 70 million in schools, maybe more. School students and personnel are protected by rigorous training (remember the fire drills), so sprinklers are a property damage issue, not a life protection issue. Our insurer never offered a discount for sprinklers, so it was hard for me to believe that the investment was justified - easily $1/square foot new, much more for decent retrofit? thanks! harvey M. Sachs ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 13:43:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA23138 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:43:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA18222 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:43:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08814; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:38:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:34:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08025 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:34:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08021 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:34:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.109] (pm0a9.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.109]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA06528; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:35:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:35:55 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1585181@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: A New Thread: "What's A Green Window"? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 793 Marc Rosenbaum wrote: >Thanks for starting this, Chris. In my work, I vastly prefer windows >which can >be reglazed easily, without throwing the sash away (a la Andersen) The >Canadian fiberglass windows are the bst I've seen, and can be reglazed as >glazing either fails or new miracle materials come out. Glass should be >pretty >reusable, perhaps somewhat downcycled to a less energy-critical use, and >certainly can be recycled. > Regarding the last comment, unfortunately post-consumer window glass may not be be readily recyclable. The glass has quite different properties than beverage-container glass. Fiberglass insulation manufacturers use window glass, but I believe that so far they are using only pre-consumer glass cullet from float glass manufacturing plants. The recycling centers I am familiar with do not currently accept window glass. That could change of course.... Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 14:14:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA23755 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:14:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA27934 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:13:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10700; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:09:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:05:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10369 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:05:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10365 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:05:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dial-226-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.226]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA24743; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:09:47 -0500 Message-ID: <348EE8F4.667D@together.net> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:09:40 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harvey Sachs CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: re: residential sprinkler systems References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 794 Harvey: "That's why I always felt irritated by the well-intentioned efforts of contractors to get schools retrofitted with sprinklers." Should not "well intentioned" read: "Building code irequired?" "On average (I am tolks) less than 1 person/year is killed in school fires, with probably 70 million in schools, maybe more." Perhaps the very low school fire death rate is due to code mandated sprinkler systems and Building Codes enacted over the years after tragic fires in the past? Seems to me, regardless of codes, the cost of $1.00 to $1.50 (US) a square foot is a good value. Best Regards.. Tom Anderson Harvey Sachs wrote: > > Khalil c/o khassan@mnsinc.com raises an interesting > point, but one that makes me again want to be the > contrarian. Please check in with your insurance agent or > other fire protection authorities (National Institute of Stds > and Technology, local fire department...). I think you will > find that the most common cause of single-family housing > fires is smoking, particularly drunks falling asleep while > smoking. I believe, but am not certain, that electrical > malfunctions, children playing with fire, etc, are way lower. > > The point is simple: My definition of a "green" building > would preclude smoking inside. I just don't know how to > cost-effectively clean the air. If smoking is the biggie in > house fires, and smoking isn't happening, then the > cost-effectiveness of sprinklers is dubious. > > That's why I always felt irritated by the well-intentioned > efforts of contractors to get schools retrofitted with > sprinklers. On average (I am tolks) less than 1 person/year > is killed in school fires, with probably 70 million in schools, > maybe more. School students and personnel are protected > by rigorous training (remember the fire drills), so sprinklers > are a property damage issue, not a life protection issue. > Our insurer never offered a discount for sprinklers, so it was > hard for me to believe that the investment was justified - > easily $1/square foot new, much more for decent retrofit? > > thanks! > harvey M. Sachs > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 14:18:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA23827 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:18:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA29243 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:17:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11132; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:13:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:09:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10689 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.172]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10682 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:09:23 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501 Message-ID: <8e4bfe13.348ee7b9@aol.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:25:52 EST To: rfried@bccom.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Good forestry and wood use Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 795 In a message dated 12/10/97 7:08:29 AM, you wrote: <> Hi Rona, Sounds like you're frustrated about the complexity of managing landscapes. Sounds like it's important to you too. I myself once became so frustrated listening to folks from the Forest Products Association, the Department of the Interior and the Sierra Club argue about management that I blurted out, "My, god!! How did the forests ever manage to survive before there were people!!!". My experience is with yours, managing a forest is quite complex. I've seen many ways to manage a forest. Whenever I have been asked to help manage a landscape, I started with the desires of the owners. Managing to produce food and fiber for nesting birds and small furbearers is not the same as managing to maximize income, or the same as managing to maximize water conservation, or to provide fuel wood for three houses indefinitely, or to provide treecrops for human consumption. There are many paths. As god says in the Qu'ran, more or less, "if I wanted you all on the same path, I'd have made you all the same". I've noticed in the northeast, over the last three decades, a great deal of farmland has been left to the management of ecological succession. I am surrounded by fields which are filled or are filling up with poplar, white ash, red maple, pin cherry, white pine and black birch, with understories of viburnams, grasses, ferns, raspberries, elderberry. These are great landscapes for birds and small mammals. They produce a good deal of firewood. They could be managed to remain in this state for many years. The red maple and ash could be managed to produce materials for many craft and construction projects. They would not proceed on to the maple-beech-birch climax forest. This climax forest can be managed for maple sugar, flooring, trim and furniture woods. The beech produce nuts that are eaten by many forest creatures. The only thing I know about kenaf is that I have bought some kenaf paper, and the company periodically sends me a little newsletter about it. There are climax grasslands and grasslands that are more sustainable than monocultures. When the pilgrims arrived in Massachussetts, it was a grassland 100 miles inland. It was maintained that way by burning - a fire managed grassland. The early journals are filled with reports of prairie species of birds that no longer exist in New England since the grasslands grew into forests. Perhaps kenaf can be part of a managed perennial grassland like the work Wes Jackson has been doing in the midwest? I don't know, myself. Earle Barnhart and Hilda Maingay probably have a better handle on this stuff than anyone else I know. Thanks for getting me thinking about this stuff some more. I appreciate it. Where are you located? Warm regards, Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 15:02:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA24371 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:02:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA11380 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:02:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13593; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:57:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:53:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13128 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:53:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin52.mx.aol.com (mrin52.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.162]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13123 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:53:28 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin52.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA24433 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:57:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:57:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971210145720_-1740170211@mrin52.mx> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Zolatone alternative/green carpeting in NYC Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 796 Does anyone know of a green alternative to Zolatone, the multi-colored speckled paint? Also, a good source and installer for Image or Interface carpet in New York City? I spec'd Zolatone for a commercial project about eight years ago...before I knew much about VOCs. (Zolatone is something like 50% VOCs by weight--yikes!--not a healthier coating.) It has performed really well--very durable. But the building owners need to touch up, and I'd like to offer them a healthier alternative. Thanks. Rob Harrison Seattle ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 16:04:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA25896 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:04:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA29038 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:04:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA17753; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:59:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:55:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17262 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:55:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from millkern.com (millkern.com [205.197.248.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17258 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:55:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnatella (asc125.idsonline.com [207.176.21.125]) by millkern.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA28064; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:59:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971210160035.006c1cd8@scgcorp.com> X-Sender: dnatella@scgcorp.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:00:35 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Dave Natella Subject: Re: GBlist: Zolatone alternative/green carpeting in NYC In-Reply-To: <971210145720_-1740170211@mrin52.mx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 797 One paint system that appears to match your requirements is: Aquafleck California Products Corporation 169 Waverly Street P.O. Box 569 Cambridge, MA 02139-0569 (800)533-5788) California Products Corp. product literature compares/contrasts Aquafleck with: Zolotone, Polomyx, Multispec, Multispec Waterbourne, and Toll-o-fect. (You can guess which product comes out to be superior to all the rest!) The Aquafleck system is acrylic latex, composed of a basecoat and a finish coat containing colored flecks. Manufacturer's information highlights its environmental friendliness including "virtually no odor", water-based, lack of common hydrocarbon solvents, half the VOCs of other multi-color products (<85 g/liter), high durability, etc. Dave Natella The Scientific Consulting Group, Inc. Gaithersburg, MD At 02:57 PM 12/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >Does anyone know of a green alternative to Zolatone, the multi-colored >speckled paint? > >Also, a good source and installer for Image or Interface carpet in New York >City? > >I spec'd Zolatone for a commercial project about eight years ago...before I >knew much about VOCs. (Zolatone is something like 50% VOCs by >weight--yikes!--not a healthier coating.) It has performed really well--very >durable. But the building owners need to touch up, and I'd like to offer them >a healthier alternative. > >Thanks. > >Rob Harrison >Seattle >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 16:06:47 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA25949 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:06:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA29587 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:06:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18124; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:01:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:57:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17431 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:57:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17426 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:57:27 -0500 (EST) From: healthyp@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA10808; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:01:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 15:01:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from nyc-ny47-16.ix.netcom.com(199.183.41.176) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma008288; Wed Dec 10 14:50:40 1997 To: RHDesign@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-Id: <19971210155059441@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: GBlist: Zolatone alternative/green carpeting in NYC X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.20, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 798 On 12/10/97 14:57:20 you wrote: > >Does anyone know of a green alternative to Zolatone, the multi-colored >speckled paint? > >Also, a good source and installer for Image or Interface carpet in New York >City? > >I spec'd Zolatone for a commercial project about eight years ago...before I >knew much about VOCs. (Zolatone is something like 50% VOCs by >weight--yikes!--not a healthier coating.) It has performed really well-- very >durable. But the building owners need to touch up, and I'd like to offer them >a healthier alternative. > >Thanks. > >Rob Harrison >Seattle >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > > A good source for Interface carpet in NYC might be "Design Source" 212.921.8319. Try their (interface) web site: www.ifsia.com Robyn Heller EcoSmart Healthy Properties, LLC. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 16:09:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA26023 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:09:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA00274 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:08:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18390; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:04:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:00:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA17900 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:00:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.165]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17892 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:00:15 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO Message-ID: <4a840af1.348f02ef@aol.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:00:28 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Residential sprinkler systems Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 799 I think they're a great idea. I've seen all kinds of statistics that show that fire fatalities in sprinklered commercial buildings are extremely low, and fire fatalities in residential buildings are in the 1000's per year, dominating all fire fatality statistics. Maybe after "affordable housing" and "affordable comfort", the next frontier should be "affordable sprinklering". Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 17:43:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA27888 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:43:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA27732 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:43:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23344; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:38:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:34:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23009 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:34:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from c2smtp.payette.com (c2smtp.payette.com [199.232.148.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22998 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:34:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from NetWare MHS (SMF70) by c2smtp.payette.com via Connect2-SMTP 4.01.b32G; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:40:09 -0500 Message-ID: <18BFD83001000000@c2smtp.payette.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:40:12 -5000 From: Daniel Arons Organization: Payette Associates Inc. To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Old Windows MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.01.b32G MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 800 > > > I recommended this system to my neighbors, who have a lovely old > (>200 years) colonial, and were going to do vinyl windows > (shudder!). Should that read 'Shutter'???? >As it turned out, their sash were too far gone to rout. > What the contractor did was buy *new* single glazed sash, which he > then routed, etc., and put the low-e glass into. The completed job > looks great! Cost was about $18K vs. $13K for the vinyl - not > insignificant, but given the retained value of the home, I think > worth it (they seem to agree). Note that here an additional cost > was painting of the new sash, which I suspect needs to happen on > BiGlass projects which re-use existing sash. > > I've also seen good jobs at fitting a second window inside the > first, especially on projects where the wall got fatter from the > inside. This works well, gives a great thermal break between > glazing layers!, and with double hung windows enables the opening of > the upper sash on the exterior and the inner sash on the interior, > for ventilation without blowing the paper off the desk. > > Marc Rosenbaum In any of these scenarios, one should consider the presence of lead paint, and the value of mitigating same, for health and, in the case of rental units in our fair state, legal requirements. ********************** Daniel Arons Architect Payette Associates, Inc (617)342-8201 ext. 324 darons@payette.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 18:33:11 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA28559 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:33:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA12875 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:32:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA25442; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:27:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:24:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA25131 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:23:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA25127 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.23] (mke-1-7.binc.net [208.142.229.23]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA26695 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:28:06 -0600 Message-Id: <199712102328.RAA26695@glacier.binc.net> Subject: GBlist: Re: Tyvek, Air barriers, tape- Panels! Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 17:38:49 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 801 As a Structural Insulated Panel builder I LOVE not having to worry about air barriers, vapor barriers, and the like. When installed properly, which is extremely easy to do, the SIP provides an integral air and vapor barrier, with full insulation (no studs to worry about thermal bridging), high R values, and a structural wall three times or more stronger than a framed wall. I just don't get why there is such resistance in some corners to this material. Is it use of petrochemicals in EPS foam? I personally don't see the logic in refraining from the use of a product because it is made with petroleum when the very product can save way more petroleum than was consumed to manufacture it in a very short period of time via less consumption to heat and cool the space. I don't have the data to back this up, but I'll bet money the petroleum used to harvest, process, dry and ship wood framing lumber to a jobsite is more than is consumed in the maufacture of panels for the same house. Not to mention the insulation needed for a framed wall, or that the waste generated by the panel manufacturers is recovered at the point of manufacture, ground, and turned in to new EPS. Personally, I'm happy to quit flogging a dead stick framed horse. Chris Koehn Top Ridge Homes ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 19:40:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA29307 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:40:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA02712 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:39:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28062; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:34:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:29:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA27629 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA27621 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:29:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from genesis.ampsc.com (genesis.ampsc.com [207.102.161.148]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA15104; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:48:30 -0800 Message-ID: <348F347F.26C8@ampsc.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:32:00 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: khassan CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: residential sprinkler systems References: <348F0508.A8E11176@mnsinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 802 khassan wrote: > > I was thinking that with all the time, effort and expense that goes into > making our projects, residential and otherwise, healthy places to live > and work not much is said about protecting that investment. I would > welcome any thoughts and ideas on residential sprinkler systems. I > recognize the inherent value of such a system but I am interested what > others may have to offer in regards to how they impact on > "greenbuilding" > Khalil c/o khassan@mnsinc.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ Residential sprinkler systems, can be a second, separate from domestic, water, system, and should lower fire insurance, etc. Copper piping should be allowed, not vinyl, or should not require commercial grade steel and cast pipe systems. Use a separate water supply line, ie. separate service, for sprinkler of house contents and landscaping. Where I am from the minium meter charges monthly, are more than the usage, but will allow specific monitoring of usage. Best idea for awhile, but I would like to hear more about operating and maintaining the structure's systems, as well as building techniques to create a healthy envirionment for building structures. Best regards, Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 19:57:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA29476 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:57:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA07802 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28787; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:52:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:48:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA28502 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:48:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28498 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:48:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA167432; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:47:13 -0700 Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:47:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: healthyp@ix.netcom.com Cc: RHDesign@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: interface Carpets of Atlanta In-Reply-To: <19971210155059441@ix.netcom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 803 Further to the discussion of the above in the note of below, does anyone have an email address for Interface? I am interested in their hemp area rugs. Jorg Ostrowski ___________________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 10 Dec 1997 healthyp@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > On 12/10/97 14:57:20 you wrote: > > > >Does anyone know of a green alternative to Zolatone, the multi-colored > >speckled paint? > > > >Also, a good source and installer for Image or Interface carpet in New York > >City? > > > >I spec'd Zolatone for a commercial project about eight years ago...before I > >knew much about VOCs. (Zolatone is something like 50% VOCs by > >weight--yikes!--not a healthier coating.) It has performed really well-- > very > >durable. But the building owners need to touch up, and I'd like to offer > them > >a healthier alternative. > > > >Thanks. > > > >Rob Harrison > >Seattle > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > A good source for Interface carpet in NYC might be "Design Source" > 212.921.8319. Try their (interface) web site: www.ifsia.com > > Robyn Heller > EcoSmart Healthy Properties, LLC. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 20:46:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA29998 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:46:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA22532 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:46:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA00802; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:40:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:35:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA00335 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:35:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.177]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA00331 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:35:15 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <410b9451.348f42fb@aol.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:33:44 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: residential sprinkler systems Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 804 I have enough trouble trying to remain remotely in the price realm people consider acceptable building good quality houses and trying to incorporate a few energy, indoor air, passive solar and other features. Recognizing that in our competitive environment we are often competing apples for oranges, I can't see adding the expense of sprinklers. Are we all just going to be rich people niche builders or are there folks on this list who build for normal folks? Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 21:32:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA00510 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:32:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA04697 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:31:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA03102; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:27:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:23:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA02643 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:23:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02635 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id UAA0000020116; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:27:09 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971211022908.006e5730@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:29:08 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Re: old/new windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 805 Regarding historic old windows and what to do, I once did a pretty neat job of tightening up lovely old rippled windows on a log cabin by attaching good sealed single light double pane low e windows to the inside of the house with 'take-down furniture' screws. It looked good and did the job. Affixed a good gasket between the two and generally left them up year around except for the once a year cleaning. Sacie Lambertson And yes,regarding Chris Koehn's query about the prejudice against SIPs, I'ld like to know what the deal is too. They seem to be a very simple and indeed, an almost perfect solution with or without timberframe, for energy efficient building--specially for the house build in four foot modules. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 10 22:56:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA01513 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:56:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA25453 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:55:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA06315; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:51:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:46:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA06015 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:46:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06011 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:46:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mnsinc.com (a0027.culpeper.mns.net [206.239.106.27]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA02331 for ; Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:50:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <348F8D3F.813E343A@mnsinc.com> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:50:40 -0800 From: khassan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: residential sprinklers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 806 In response to Fred U I've done a little more research on the subject and found that the cost of a system ranges frome a low of .75 to a high of 1.50 per sq ft. I also found that those most at risk to death or injury from fire are the elderly, young people under 19 and children under 5. Are they not worth the investment? By the way I'm an owner/builder on a fixed income and generally have to pay retail or close to retail for my materials and I generally consider myself to be "normal" but get differing opinions on that subject from friends. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 04:02:47 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA04709 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:02:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA00107 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:02:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA13351; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:57:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:52:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA13091 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:52:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA13087 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:52:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.19] (blf19.acadia.net [205.217.217.19]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id DAA28296 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:57:06 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:55:20 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: re: residential sprinkler systems Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 807 Harvey Sachs wrote: >That's why I always felt irritated by the well-intentioned >efforts of contractors to get schools retrofitted with >sprinklers. On average (I am tolks) less than 1 person/year >is killed in school fires, with probably 70 million in schools, >maybe more. School students and personnel are protected >by rigorous training (remember the fire drills), so sprinklers >are a property damage issue, not a life protection issue. >Our insurer never offered a discount for sprinklers, so it was >hard for me to believe that the investment was justified - >easily $1/square foot new, much more for decent retrofit? > >thanks! >harvey M. Sachs Harvey - sprinkler systems save lives, and are well worth the cost. Do some research, and I'm sure you'll agree. Here in Maine, the number one cause of house fires is not smoking (I think that's number two) but faulty woodstove installations and/or chimney fires. You'd be amazed at the poor level of care that often goes into installing woodburning devices around here! Since I'm a bit of a contrarian too, I often wonder why there is so much fretting about EMF's - an unproven risk, which if real, is probably slight and relatively easy to mitigate - when the demonstrably real risk of bad woodstove installations, with scores of fires and deaths annually, gets very little of our attention. - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 04:06:05 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA04798 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:06:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA01030 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:05:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA13632; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:01:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:57:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA13318 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:57:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA13310 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.19] (blf19.acadia.net [205.217.217.19]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id EAA28357 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:01:29 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:59:43 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Recycling Window Glass Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 808 Alex informed us that recycling centers are not currently recycling window glass. I wonder if this kind of glass would be suitable as an ingrediaent in ceramic tile? There are tiles containing recycled auto windshield glass, so one suspects that window glass would work too. I have read that in Canada, glass shards are broken to small pieces, tumbled to dull the edges (like beach glass) and used as a substitute for crushed stone for drainage aggregate. Does anyone know if this is true? - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 04:12:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA04885 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:12:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA02038 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:11:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA13940; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:07:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:03:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA13704 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:03:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA13699 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:03:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.19] (blf19.acadia.net [205.217.217.19]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id EAA28469 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:07:53 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 04:06:07 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Residential sprinkler systems Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 809 >I think they're a great idea. I've seen all kinds of statistics that show >that fire fatalities in sprinklered commercial buildings are extremely low, >and fire fatalities >in residential buildings are in the 1000's per year, dominating all fire >fatality statistics. Maybe after "affordable housing" and "affordable >comfort", the next >frontier should be "affordable sprinklering". > >Ian > > > >Ian Shapiro, PE In my family's home, we plumbed in some hose bibbs inside closets upstairs, and kept a coil of garden hose hooked up on it, "for emergency use only". This is obviously not as good as an automatic sprinkler system, depending on the occupant to be concious, not paniced, able to breathe, etc., but it was better than nothing, and very cheap. The problem was, our insurance agent applauded our foresight, but didn't lower the rates one bit. - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 07:24:25 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA06284 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA08658 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:23:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA16912; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:19:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:15:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA16697 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:14:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA16691 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:14:47 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO Message-ID: <59c35e0f.348fda18@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:18:30 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: HP Thermostats [GBdigest V1 #468] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 810 I specified 100 Honeywell (non-electronic) heat pump thermostats a few years ago for a large multifamily project. There was some major failure - either pins falling out, or something similar). I continue to specify Honeywell products because their reliability is otherwise so good, but was left with a bad taste from this project. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 08:16:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06788 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:16:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA19772 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:16:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA18271; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:11:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:06:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA18015 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:06:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA18011 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:06:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA117126; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:09:32 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 06:09:32 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "David M. Foley" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Recycling Window Glass In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 811 David: The floor of my office, and all window sills (10" deep) in our home have "Traffic Tile" made from 73% recycled glass. Richard Kadulski from Vancouver has experience re: recycled glass drainage material. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, David M. Foley wrote: > > Alex informed us that recycling centers are not currently recycling window > glass. I wonder if this kind of glass would be suitable as an ingrediaent > in ceramic tile? There are tiles containing recycled auto windshield > glass, so one suspects that window glass would work too. > > I have read that in Canada, glass shards are broken to small pieces, > tumbled to dull the edges (like beach glass) and used as a substitute for > crushed stone for drainage aggregate. Does anyone know if this is true? > > - David Foley > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 09:49:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA08207 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:49:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA13387 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:49:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA20997; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:44:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:40:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA20694 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:40:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA20688 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:40:13 -0500 (EST) From: healthyp@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA01904 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:44:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 08:44:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from nyc-ny19-05.ix.netcom.com(205.186.166.165) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma001863; Thu Dec 11 08:43:35 1997 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-Id: <1997121194357541@ix.netcom.com> Subject: GBlist: GBList X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.20, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 812 Does anyone have any information (i.e. phone #, address) for: Alaska Recycled Paperwoods? I haven't been able to locate them. Thank you. Robyn Heller EcoSmart Healthy Properties, LLC ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 10:04:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA08470 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:04:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA17909 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:04:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21633; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:59:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:55:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21397 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:55:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21392 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:55:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA167558; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:58:16 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:58:16 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: TBren46501 Cc: Caaradrbl@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: air-tightness of cellulose insulation In-Reply-To: <5884a5a3.348d5dae@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 813 Terry: Further to your interesting and useful note of below, have you (or anyone else) done any tests to establish the air-tightness of blown-in (ie. 3.5 #CF) cellulose insulation. Based on other reports, I know that it serves to increase air-tightness, but I would like to see a few other reports that independently confirm this. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, TBren46501 wrote: > > - Around the same time, a class I was teaching built a setup so we could > pressure test 4 foot by 4 foot wall sections. We found that 1) sheetrock > could make a good air barrier 2) plywood could make a good air barrier 3) > polyethylene could make a good air barrier 4) Tyvek could make a good air > barrier 5) if you overlapped the the Tyvec 12 inches or so, taping the joint > had no measureable effect 6) fiberglass batts reduced airflow, but were > clearly not airtight 7) if you got the wall pretty tight, using one method, > adding another air tight layer didn't make the wall much tighter, but adds > defense-in-depth 8) electrical outlets leak, but can be sealed in a variety of > ways > > Plywood has a pretty low perm rating so condensation potential needs to > accounted for when you start using it as an air barrier. Condensation > prediction using Ficke's law (as outlined in the current ASHRAE handbook of > fundamentals) often predicts condensation in situations where I seldom see it. > It ignores advective flow and moisture storage in materials. > > Terry > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 10:10:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA08583 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:10:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA19975 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:09:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22399; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:05:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:00:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21785 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:00:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21779 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA06003 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:05:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:05:01 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Residential sprinklers To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199712110700.CAA10750@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 814 According to the National Fire Protection Agency, there are about 6000 fire deaths per year in the US, a rate of about 2.4 per 100,000. The rate is slightly lower in Canada. The majority of deaths are in one, two and low-rise multi-family housing. Direct costs in the US exceed $6 billion. Sounds pretty scary. So, we think about sprinklers to stop the death toll. NRCC/IRC onducted some trials and studies of residential sprinklers, since they were being considered for code inclusion in residential multi-family dwellings. The very clear result was that they cost much more in water damage over the life of the building than their initial costs. For every activation due to a fire, something like 4 false sprikler releases will be encountered. The resultant massive water damage significantly increases the costs of sprinklering. Also, a cerain percentage of fires occur despite sprinklers, becuase of had failure or other accidnets. Active systems fire suppresion systems such as sprinklers also assme that you will have power and/or municipal water supply available. During any larger scale disaster (tornado, hurricane, lightning storm, brush fire, earthquake), you are likely to lose the house if it depeds on sprinklers. As someone else mentioned, the price of sprinklers is relatively small, certainly less than $2/sf. But, for less than this, one can build a more fire resistant and a fire safe house. Wish to reduce the potential for fire deaths in your next house? Do not use any carpet or synthetic wall paper, or heavy sythnetic curtains. Avoid any foam plastic filled furniture, use solid wood, etc. In short, build a healthy natural house. This will reduce the toxic smoke (which is what kills) reduce flame spread dramatically (stopping or delaying the fire) and reduce fule contributed (so that the fire never gets to flash over tmeperature). Want to go one step further? Add a second layer of drywall, provide extra airtightness measures between rooms and floors. Immediate benefits are better room climate, more solar energy utilization, and better sound and energy control. Why not go one final step? Built a proper strawbale houe with thick stucco finishes, or a rammed earth house in the warmer climates. Or use a non-foam concrete based insulated concrete forming system (the Durisol ICF system has a 6 hour fire rating!). For close to or even less than the price of a sprinkler system, you can build a house that is healthier, quieter, and more energy efficient while at the same time reducing the poential for fire deaths by an order of magnitude. Experience has shown that relying on active, technological fixes to substitute for proper design is a questionable route to take -- for fire safety or any other issue. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 10:12:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA08620 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:12:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA20664 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:12:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22617; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:07:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:03:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22142 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:03:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22129 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:03:32 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl Message-ID: <8259c9b5.34900145@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:05:39 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Subject: GBlist: Re: Tyvek, Air barriers, tape- Panels! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 815 In a message dated 12/11/97 8:23:15 AM, you wrote: < Subject: GBlist: Re: Tyvek, Air barriers, tape- Panels! As a Structural Insulated Panel builder I LOVE not having to worry about air barriers, vapor barriers, and the like. When installed properly, which is extremely easy to do, the SIP provides an integral air and vapor barrier, with full insulation (no studs to worry about thermal bridging), high R values, and a structural wall three times or more stronger than a framed wall. I just don't get why there is such resistance in some corners to this material.>> Chris & Ruth As I don't have the expertise to address the energy issues you bring up I will give you my take on the beauty of stick framed buildings as I see it. I deal mostly with renovation and restoration of 200 year old and younger buildings. The fact that I can easily retrofit 1990 mechanicals into a c.1840 wood frame house is probably enough of a benefit in and of itself. There is also the ability to frame a building or addition of almost any size with two or three people without cranes or large lifting devices. The pieces used are all easily transportable, small enough to cut from local timber if needed, and easily framed into any odd shape a designer/architect can draw (and some they can't). The exterior wall cavities are usable for a variety of mechanicals and insulation techniques and available for future upgrades of either. The amount of work it takes to insure air tightness is minor and easily doable and requires only a little foresight and attention to detail (this ain't rocket science or brain surgery). It seems to take a minimum of old growth timber since the sizes of the pieces never very deep or long. The techniques can be taught to a wide variety of people and in fact can be done by volunteer groups in a relatively short time (such as Habitat for Humanity). Need I go on? I read a constant barrage of "alternative" systems for wall construction on this listserve and others and wonder why so much time and effort is taken to reinvent the wheel. Here we have "a dead stick framed horse" which has stood the test of more than a few generations, easy to construct, easy to renovate, easy to repair if there is insect or fire damage (I tend not to use roof trusses, Truss joists, or web joists if it can be helped). What more could I ask for? No, I'm not a Luddite, I just know a thing of elegance in simplicity when I see it. My "old farm house" I built in 1990 is passive solar, air tight, and super insulated. It works as a constant construction laboratory for me to try out new ways of getting insight into a house as a living system and I am constantly tinkering with technologies I come across to get a sense of what they do to the micro-environment I live in. But, hey, thanks for your love of and work with emerging technologies. Maybe some day they will even be as good as stick framing. Let's do this again in the year 2050. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave Associates, Contractors Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 11:54:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA09760 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA16693 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:53:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28509; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:48:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:44:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28018 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:44:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from assateague.lerc.nasa.gov (assateague.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.35.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28007 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:44:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from captiva.lerc.nasa.gov by assateague.lerc.nasa.gov with ESMTP (NASA LeRC 8.7.4.1/2.01-main) id LAA07134; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:48:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhober1.lerc.nasa.gov by captiva.lerc.nasa.gov with SMTP (NASA LeRC 8.7.4.1/2.01-local) id LAA02087; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:48:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971211114825.00aa17cc@popserve.lerc.nasa.gov> X-Info: IDE / NASA Lewis Research Center X-Sender: pvmarkh@popserve.lerc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:48:25 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Mark A Hoberecht Subject: GBlist: Durisol (was Residential sprinklers) In-Reply-To: References: <199712110700.CAA10750@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 816 At 10:05 AM 12/11/97 EST, you (John Straube) wrote: ...snip... >In short, build a healthy natural house. ...snip... >Why not go one final step? Build a proper strawbale house with thick >stucco finishes, or a rammed earth house in the warmer climates. Or use >a non-foam concrete based insulated concrete forming system (the Durisol ICF >system has a 6 hour fire rating!). John, Do you have any more info. on the Durisol ICF system (contacts, web sites)? Thanks ..... Mark Hoberecht ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 11:54:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA09701 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:51:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA14770 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:44:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27836; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:40:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:36:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27441 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27435 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:35:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA19437 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:39:15 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005325E; Thu, 11 Dec 97 10:28:27 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:38:21 -0600 Message-ID: <0005325E.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #471 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 817 Chris - What you're referring to is "embodied energy" of the material. There's a lot of debate going on about this topic. Last year I worked on a research project where we investigated the embodied energy impact of various wall materials. Keeping the wall's R-value constant, the SIP panel house has substantially more E.E. than stick-framed, fiberglass insulated walls. The difference is even greater if you substitute cellulose insulation for the fiberglass. I think SIP panels are a great idea, too, but certainly not from an environmental impact standpoint.(If someone could invent a cellulose-based substitute for EPS, it would be a different story.....) - Patrick Pierquet ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 17:38:49 -0000 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn Subject: GBlist: Re: Tyvek, Air barriers, tape- Panels! As a Structural Insulated Panel builder I LOVE not having to worry about air barriers, vapor barriers, and the like.... I don't have the data to back this up, but I'll bet money the petroleum used to harvest, process, dry and ship wood framing lumber to a jobsite is more than is consumed in the maufacture of panels for the same house. Not to mention the insulation needed for a framed wall, or that the waste generated by the panel manufacturers is recovered at the point of manufacture, ground, and turned in to new EPS. Personally, I'm happy to quit flogging a dead stick framed horse. Chris Koehn Top Ridge Homes ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 12:23:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA00690 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:23:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA23932 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:23:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00744; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:18:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:14:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00310 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:14:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net (denmark-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00303 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 12:14:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [153.37.244.232] (1Cust104.max3.portland2.or.ms.uu.net [153.37.244.232]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA14088; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:18:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199712111718.JAA14088@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Durisol (was Residential sprinklers) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 97 09:22:03 -0000 x-sender: oikos@earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Mark A Hoberecht" , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 818 John Durisol is featured in the current Product Gallery on Oikos. You'll find a link on the home page . Bruce >John, > >Do you have any more info. on the Durisol ICF system (contacts, web sites)? > >Thanks ..... Mark Hoberecht -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 13:21:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA01742 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA07981 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03411; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:16:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:12:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03138 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:12:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.165]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03134 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:12:02 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: <5071e26e.34902c28@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:08:38 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Carpets Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 819 There is a tremendous amount of R& D going on in the carpet industry. There are major changes going on and several companies are worth mentioning including: Image (manufactures polyester using recovered pop bottles) Collins & Aikman (up to 75% recycled content by weight in Powerbond-recycled content is used in backing, only major manufacturing producing at this time) Interface: Carpeting is 'leased' with return and recycling being projected. Best policy statement but product is not currently recycled or has much recycled content. Milliken: Has a 'deep cleaning' and reuse program to extend product life. Shaw: Strong research program. Will announce new program next year. DuPont: Strong research program. Can technically recycle fiber. Working on economic system. Interface's web site is: http://www.ifsia.com/noframe.htm Collins & Aikman probably has a web site but their number is 800-248-2878 Anyone wanting more detailed information on 'green' or sustainable carpeting is welcome to contact me. Phil Bailey 540-891-2250 pbsustain@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 14:46:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA03942 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:46:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA28784 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:46:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07898; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:41:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:37:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07534 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:37:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07528 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:37:31 -0500 (EST) From: IdahoCFM Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:37:21 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: building energy load questions Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_881869040_boundary" Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 820 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_881869040_boundary Content-ID: <0_881869040@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII OK, all you energy engineers out there sharpen up your pencils... I have two phases of a medical office building that, under analysis, yield suprisingly different energy consumption levels. Both have identical levels of roof and wall insulation, are heated by centralized gas boilers, cooled rooftop chillers, and have a variety of professional tenants. (dentists, surgeons, lawyers etc.) 700 (phase one) was built in 1990, and 700x (phase II) was built a few years later. A chart of the $ per sf per day is attatched. When I approach my HVAC guy and electrician, I get some interesting feedback. The HVAC says that because the use curves are almost perfectly matched between the two buildings, that there must not be any variation in the seasonal items (heating, cooling, exterior lighting). Electrician agrees, and is quick to point out the difference in lighting efficiency (phase I has t-12's and some (gasp) incandescent can lights, while phase II is all t-8's and CFL's) and the fact that phase I has tenants that hold longer office hours. All of this seems to test out in a practical sense, but I have a hard time believing that a 72% increase in average utility cost can come from a few can lights and some late office hours. The question I then pose is what else might I be overlooking in the base load of a professional building like this one that might bump up the consumption so drastically? I understand there will be variations with individual projects, but it there anything obvious that I'm missing? Thanks in advance for your input! Chris Meyer Parkwood Business Properties --part0_881869040_boundary Content-ID: <0_881869040@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: application/octet-stream; name="700-700X.XLC" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 Content-disposition: inline CQQGAAAAIAD2BVwAIAANUGVnZ3kgTGVvbmFyZCAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgIDYQBACwBQAA QgACAOQEFAADAAImRhUACAAHUGFnZSAmUIMAAgAAAIQAAgAAACYACAAAAAAAAADoPycACAAA AAAAAADoPygACAAAAAAAAADwPykACAAAAAAAAADwP6EADAANUGVnAQABAAEABgBAAAIAAAAz AAIAAgASAAIAAAAZAAIAAABjAAIAAAATAAIAAAAWAAIAAgAXABgAFwFbNzAwVVRJTC5YTFdd NzAwLTEuWExTFwAYABcBWzcwMFVUSUwuWExXXTcwMC0yLlhMUzAAAgACADECFADIAAAA/38N TVMgU2FucyBTZXJpZjECFADwAAEA/38NTVMgU2FucyBTZXJpZgEQAgAAAAIQEAAAAAAAAAAA AC8rAAAMFwAAMxAAAAMQCAADAAEADAAMADMQAAAEEAgAAAEAAAAAAAANEAYAAAADNzAwBBAZ AAECAAEMAQALAUFMRkQwRDM5MjIDAA4ACgoEEBkAAgIAAQABAAsBQUxGRDBBQzA0NQMADgAB ATQQAAADEAgAAwABAAwADAAzEAAABBAIAAABAAAAAAAADRAHAAAABDcwMHgEEBkAAQIAAgwB AAsBQUw5NUVDMTIyQQMADgAKCgQQGQACAgABAAEACwFBTEZEMEFDMDQ1AwAOAAEBNBAAABQQ EgAAAAAAAAAAAC8rAAAMFwAAAAAzEAAAGBACAAAAIhAKAAAAAAAAAAAADwAVEBQADCQAAH8I AAARBwAAtgQAAAMBDwAzEAAAJRAaAAICAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALEAMxAAAAQQ CAAAAQAAAAAAADQQAAA0EAAAHRASAAAAwQQAAAAAAACLHgAAMwwAADMQAAAgEAgAAQABAAEA AAA0EAAAHRASAAEAAAAAAFEDAACLHgAAMwwAADMQAAAfECoAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAB8BIRACAAEABxAKAAAAAAACAP//AAA0EAAAJBACAAAA JRAaAAICAgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADEAMxAAAAQQCAAAAQAAAAAAACcQBgAEAAAA AAA0EAAANBAAACUQGgACAgEAAAAAALgHAADBEgAAvBUAAJoDAACBADMQAAAmEAIAAQAEEAgA AAEAAAAAAAANEDIAAAAvRGlyZWN0IHV0aWxpdHkgZXhwZW5kaXR1cmUgY29tcGFyaXNvbiAK JC9zZi9kYXknEAYAAQAAAAAANBAAADQQAAAAAAoAAAAYAAAAAgAMFwQCEAAAAAAAAAAIAE5v dmVtYmVyBAIQAAAAAQAAAAgATm92ZW1iZXIEAhAAAQAAAAAACABEZWNlbWJlcgQCEAABAAEA AAAIAERlY2VtYmVyBAIPAAIAAAAAAAcASmFudWFyeQQCDwACAAEAAAAHAEphbnVhcnkEAhAA AwAAAAAACABGZWJydWFyeQQCEAADAAEAAAAIAEZlYnJ1YXJ5BAINAAQAAAAAAAUATWFyY2gE Ag0ABAABAAAABQBNYXJjaAQCDQAFAAAAAAAFAEFwcmlsBAINAAUAAQAAAAUAQXByaWwEAgsA BgAAAAAAAwBNYXkEAgsABgABAAAAAwBNYXkEAgwABwAAAAAABABKdW5lBAIMAAcAAQAAAAQA SnVuZQQCDAAIAAAAAAAEAEp1bHkEAgwACAABAAAABABKdWx5BAIOAAkAAAAAAAYAQXVndXN0 BAIOAAkAAQAAAAYAQXVndXN0BAIRAAoAAAAAAAkAU2VwdGVtYmVyBAIRAAoAAQAAAAkAU2Vw dGVtYmVyBAIPAAsAAAAAAAcAT2N0b2JlcgQCDwALAAEAAAAHAE9jdG9iZXIDAg4ADAAAAAAA vgcB0iGd6z8DAg4ADAABAAAAxmc2hCsf4D8DAg4ADQAAAAAAXq+RelDI6z8DAg4ADQABAAAA XN+OX0c54D8DAg4ADgAAAAAAA2RgqfAQ6z8DAg4ADgABAAAA8VedDl9Z4D8DAg4ADwAAAAAA jXM0iRY37T8DAg4ADwABAAAAF0zM0tjA4j8DAg4AEAAAAAAAjkPcfmsV7D8DAg4AEAABAAAA FoR6DOhh4T8DAg4AEQAAAAAAWkvxd88i6j8DAg4AEQABAAAAxyTXzt2A3j8DAg4AEgAAAAAA O2b+K4f46j8DAg4AEgABAAAAP11Aopmq3j8DAg4AEwAAAAAAVEpy7dy+7D8DAg4AEwABAAAA ORryUQqO3j8DAg4AFAAAAAAAPpG17mNC6z8DAg4AFAABAAAAQA9dZ5k93j8DAg4AFQAAAAAA 6LNPKGke7z8DAg4AFQABAAAAI9sDw3f94D8DAg4AFgAAAAAAwNlePs+j7j8DAg4AFgABAAAA GYsFJ3UI4T8DAg4AFwAAAAAARiugR/ov7D8DAg4AFwABAAAAfVkoLLLF4D89AAoAxP+n/vgl +RUEAAoAAAA= --part0_881869040_boundary-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 15:05:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA04401 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:05:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA03368 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:04:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08880; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:00:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:56:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08405 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:55:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08401 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:55:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dial-30-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.30]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA21258; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:00:08 -0500 Message-ID: <34904644.257D@together.net> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:00:04 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IdahoCFM CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: building energy load questions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 821 Hi Chris: Hard to tell whats going on based on costs alone. Please give a brief discription of HVAC system and controls. Do you have any fuel consumption data..... electric/fossil fuel consumption? Building size / # stories / location? Tom Anderson IdahoCFM wrote: > > OK, all you energy engineers out there sharpen up your pencils... > > I have two phases of a medical office building that, under analysis, yield > suprisingly different energy consumption levels. Both have identical levels of > roof and wall insulation, are heated by centralized gas boilers, cooled > rooftop chillers, and have a variety of professional tenants. (dentists, > surgeons, lawyers etc.) 700 (phase one) was built in 1990, and 700x (phase II) > was built a few years later. A chart of the $ per sf per day is attatched. > > When I approach my HVAC guy and electrician, I get some interesting feedback. > The HVAC says that because the use curves are almost perfectly matched between > the two buildings, that there must not be any variation in the seasonal items > (heating, cooling, exterior lighting). Electrician agrees, and is quick to > point out the difference in lighting efficiency (phase I has t-12's and some > (gasp) incandescent can lights, while phase II is all t-8's and CFL's) and the > fact that phase I has tenants that hold longer office hours. All of this seems > to test out in a practical sense, but I have a hard time believing that a 72% > increase in average utility cost can come from a few can lights and some late > office hours. > > The question I then pose is what else might I be overlooking in the base load > of a professional building like this one that might bump up the consumption so > drastically? I understand there will be variations with individual projects, > but it there anything obvious that I'm missing? > > Thanks in advance for your input! > > Chris Meyer > Parkwood Business Properties > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Name: 700-700X.XLC > Part 1.2 Type: unspecified type (application/octet-stream) > Encoding: base64 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 15:10:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA04523 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:10:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA04671 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:10:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09667; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:05:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:01:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA09060 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:01:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09056 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:01:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dial-30-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.30]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA21543; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:05:29 -0500 Message-ID: <34904785.64D3@together.net> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:05:25 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IdahoCFM CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: building energy load questions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 822 Chris: One more thing. Your chart shows $ .50 per square foot per day? Did you intend to say cost per Sf/Year? Most buildings like that in Northern Vermont will cost about $ .75 to $1.50 per foot per year... total utility costs... gas/electric. Tom Anderson IdahoCFM wrote: > > OK, all you energy engineers out there sharpen up your pencils... > > I have two phases of a medical office building that, under analysis, yield > suprisingly different energy consumption levels. Both have identical levels of > roof and wall insulation, are heated by centralized gas boilers, cooled > rooftop chillers, and have a variety of professional tenants. (dentists, > surgeons, lawyers etc.) 700 (phase one) was built in 1990, and 700x (phase II) > was built a few years later. A chart of the $ per sf per day is attatched. > > When I approach my HVAC guy and electrician, I get some interesting feedback. > The HVAC says that because the use curves are almost perfectly matched between > the two buildings, that there must not be any variation in the seasonal items > (heating, cooling, exterior lighting). Electrician agrees, and is quick to > point out the difference in lighting efficiency (phase I has t-12's and some > (gasp) incandescent can lights, while phase II is all t-8's and CFL's) and the > fact that phase I has tenants that hold longer office hours. All of this seems > to test out in a practical sense, but I have a hard time believing that a 72% > increase in average utility cost can come from a few can lights and some late > office hours. > > The question I then pose is what else might I be overlooking in the base load > of a professional building like this one that might bump up the consumption so > drastically? I understand there will be variations with individual projects, > but it there anything obvious that I'm missing? > > Thanks in advance for your input! > > Chris Meyer > Parkwood Business Properties > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Name: 700-700X.XLC > Part 1.2 Type: unspecified type (application/octet-stream) > Encoding: base64 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 16:33:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA06577 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:33:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA25461 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:33:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA13207; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:24:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA12790 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:24:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA12782 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:24:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA02108; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:29:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:28:37 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Durisol ICF To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: scarecrow@lerc.nasa.gov X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199712112001.PAA09096@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 823 Mark H. Brice Sullivan gave you some info. Their website, which is under construction, is www.durisol.com Phone is 905 521 0999. Some of the guys there are friends of mine so you can say I sent ya! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 17:33:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA07556 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:33:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA06518 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:33:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA15734; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:11:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:08:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15387 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:07:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15382 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:07:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.93] (pa-ppp08.hevanet.com [204.119.60.93]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05787 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 14:11:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:16:38 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Recycling Window Glass Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 824 Hi, David-- There has been some experimenting with use of glass grave in Washington state. I first noticed it when I drove through Vancouver and saw some glittering parking areas in front of rural businesses. Seems to work fine (no flat tires or cut fingers to report), though it looks a little bright for a landscaped area when firslaid. Best, Mike >Alex informed us that recycling centers are not currently recycling window >glass. I wonder if this kind of glass would be suitable as an ingrediaent >in ceramic tile? There are tiles containing recycled auto windshield >glass, so one suspects that window glass would work too. > >I have read that in Canada, glass shards are broken to small pieces, >tumbled to dull the edges (like beach glass) and used as a substitute for >crushed stone for drainage aggregate. Does anyone know if this is true? > >- David Foley > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Earth Smart Program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 17:33:53 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA07560 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:33:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA06522 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA14676; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:46:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA14212 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14204 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:45:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA29885 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:49:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from sjx-ca40-19.ix.netcom.com(205.187.203.115) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma029806; Thu Dec 11 15:48:19 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971211134335.00799360@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: rjbynum@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:49:41 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Randy Bynum Subject: GBlist: Buildings 700/700X, re: Chris Meyer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 825 Chris, a few things come to mind that might be variables that you have not identified. You might look into and coinsider the following: Are chillers both water (or air) cooled, or one of each? Does one building have VAV air handlers? Do any large motors (such as elevators) have VFDs? Are the expansion valves, distributors & orifices the proper size in the higher cost building? Is the big difference from gas or electric or both? You only have cost/sf. Are windows the same size? Are they all single pane, double pane? Is there the same surface area of windows? Do both buildings have similar solar loading? Might a control system keep a boiler and/or a chiller running when it should be shut off? How about an economizer being stuck open on an air handler? There are other things that might cause this including tenants. Possibly one building has a much larger percentage of doctors with X-Ray and other medical equipment. Have you looked for doors being propped open? Some data logging might shed some light on the subject. Good luck. Randy Bynum US Energy Controls http://www.usenergycontrols.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 17:33:54 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA07563 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:33:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA06526 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA14435; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:48:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:43:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA14021 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:43:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14015 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 16:43:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-25.topher.net [208.199.183.231]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA02771; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:38:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 15:38:00 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199712112138.PAA02771@mail.topher.net> X-Sender: ewestbrook@mail.topher.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Pbsustain From: Elena Westbrook Subject: Re: GBlist: Carpets and SIPs Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 826 Phil Bailey: >There is a tremendous amount of R& D going on in the carpet industry. There >are major changes going on and several companies are worth mentioning >including: > >Image (manufactures polyester using recovered pop bottles) We installed the Image Envirotech carpet in our house last year. I don't think it's polyester, unless that's an old trade name for PET (#1) plastic, which is what the Image carpet is made from. We're delighted with it. For one thing, it generates a *lot* less static. (This from the woman who shorted out the alarm system with static charges more than once.) It wears well. Most spills clean up with water because PET is naturally stain-resistant. There's a wide range of colors and grades. And it helped us meet our goal of using as many recycled-content products as possible. And on the subject of SIPs -- I'd just like to sound a loud second to Chris Koehn's praise of structural insulated panels. I'd like to add that, because waste is recycled by the SIP manufacturers, the amount of waste generated during the framing-and-sheathing process drops by about 75%. (Estimate courtesy of a local architect who had never seen SIP construction before.) Ours have performed even better than we expected: our first really cold night after we moved in the house, temperatures dropped 40 degrees outside and 1 degree inside. I have just one thing to say to TU Electric: nyah, nyah! ;-) ---Elena Westbrook, ELS WordWright Communications EWestbrook@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 19:30:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA10790 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:30:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA06146 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:29:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA22347; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:20:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA22072 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:20:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22066 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:20:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.46 (pm1-14.hoosier.net [206.106.67.46]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA07010 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:24:52 -0500 Message-ID: <34908392.672B@bloomington.in.us> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:21:38 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Discussion Subject: GBlist: Re:Carpets Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 827 For the "For-what-it's-worth" file: I just spoke to someone whose child was going to do a science project in which mice would be exposed to new carpet to determine the carpet's health effects. The school said NO, that someone had done that last year and the mice died. Therefore the experiment was cruel and they wouldn't allow it. Keep in mind that "green" and "healthy" are two different issues. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 22:04:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA15479 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:04:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA17097 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:03:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA28470; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:59:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:54:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA28181 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:54:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28177 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:54:14 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1 Message-ID: <30f15bf6.3490a73b@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:50:52 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: more (or less) about recycled windows... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 828 Greenbuilders, Must say that I am not too surprised that the (few) comments received about the "20 million or so windows in the landfill per year" thread have focused on the EASY STUFF.... the glass. What about the (1) metals? (2) plastics? (3) lead in the paint? (4) reusable sashes? (5) hardware? (6) lubricants? Are these things too easy? or too hard? Is anyone reclaining lead cost effectively? Regrinding or refinishing old sash for other than artistic reasons? Do 20 million windows MINUS THE GLASS go into landfills? What's "the rest of the story?" Chris Mathis MCSquared PS. If it is too boring a topic, spare the list and send me your comments directly. If not, then we're anxiously waiting! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 11 22:28:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA16255 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:28:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA22756 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:28:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29408; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:23:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:20:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA29078 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:19:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA29074 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:19:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-33.topher.net [208.199.183.239]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA10221 for ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:14:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199712120314.VAA10221@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: Subject: GBlist: EPS Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:25:12 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 829 As the owner of a SIP panel home I will say that it is very air tight. EPS is not exactly a vapor barrier, but it has extremely low water transmission. The panels were fabricated and precut locally and only 3 people and a crane shelled in my house in a matter of days. Very little waste was generated from this system. The contribution of the system to my very low energy use is substantial. I studied many different construction systems and there were many factors to balance in making a decision. One of the issues which came out very favorable for the SIP for my situation was the preservation of a resource we all must contend with - money! It was very cost effective. I was concerned about the environmental issues associated with it and here are a few quick tidbits I have found over the years about EPS: It takes about a quart of oil to make 40 quarts of EPS. For a 3000 SF house, that does add up to about 400 gallons of oil. The blowing agent is pentane, which is not ozone depleting, but can contribute to smog. Some manufactures do a good job of capturing the pentane - others do not. EPS is 98% air - a pretty good insulating material. It's insulation value degrades very little over time. EPS is recyclable (though I hope never to be picking up pieces of my house following a tornado or some such disaster!) Fortunately, SIP houses are very strong. EPS combustion byproducts are similar to those from the same volume of wood. There are many issues to consider and balance about all insulation materials. What about mining byproducts from the raw materials used in F/G insulation (sand, boron, limestone)? What about the offgassing from ink used in cellulose? . . . . . Frankly, I'm glad there are so many alternatives to choose from. Competition is good. Each has an advantage in some category and others are looking for ways to improve their particular product. Besides, we really woudn't have much to talk about here if somebody went out and perfected everything! Regards, Paul Fairview, TX ---------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Dec 97 17:38:49 -0000 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn Subject: GBlist: Re: Tyvek, Air barriers, tape- Panels! As a Structural Insulated Panel builder I LOVE not having to worry about air barriers, vapor barriers, and the like. When installed properly, which is extremely easy to do, the SIP provides an integral air and vapor barrier, with full insulation (no studs to worry about thermal bridging), high R values, and a structural wall three times or more stronger than a framed wall. I just don't get why there is such resistance in some corners to this material. Is it use of petrochemicals in EPS foam? I personally don't see the logic in refraining from the use of a product because it is made with petroleum when the very product can save way more petroleum than was consumed to manufacture it in a very short period of time via less consumption to heat and cool the space. I don't have the data to back this up, but I'll bet money the petroleum used to harvest, process, dry and ship wood framing lumber to a jobsite is more than is consumed in the maufacture of panels for the same house. Not to mention the insulation needed for a framed wall, or that the waste generated by the panel manufacturers is recovered at the point of manufacture, ground, and turned in to new EPS. Personally, I'm happy to quit flogging a dead stick framed horse. Chris Koehn Top Ridge Homes ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 12 09:00:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA03546 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:00:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA26244 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:59:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13240; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:55:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:50:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12939 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:49:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12934 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:49:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA03849 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:53:41 -0500 Message-id: <1616966@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 12 Dec 97 08:59:07 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: EPS To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 830 I have in general been looking to minimize my use of foam in buildings because of the petroleum base and more importantly the ozone depletion issue with the urethanes and the extruded polystyrenes. I prefer to use cellulose when possible. However, i realize that my bias here is built on very shaky ground - prefering a recycled content material (cellulose) to one made virgin of petroleum, preferring to minimize adhesives (in OSB and in the EPS/OSB joints), concerns about the potential mold disasters when OSB faced panels get wet (they dry very slowly.) I would like to see a thorough analysis of the energy and resources comparing a SIPS wall with a stud/cellulose wall of the same R value. Maybe my intuition is all wrong! I think panels have their place, and I used some in a very small addition to my house because of their high R value per thickness. I also have been consulting on a 24,000 ft2 university building which is now being built - steel frame and SIPS skin. The likelihood that I'll get the airtightness I specified with the SIPS system is much higher than with the alternative, steel stud framing (we considered dbl stud steel with cellulose.) So the application felt right to me - non-wood frame buildings have been much harder to make airtight. Finally - panels in and of themselves, I believe are good things. I have faith that we will find more environmentally sound materials, from natural renewable feedstocks, to make them from. Picture a straw-based panel technology that is monolithic with densified facing (that is, no core and skin.) This is common in the world of engineered plastics - we may get there in building panels also. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 12 09:46:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA04881 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:46:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA05649 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:46:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15221; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:41:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:37:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14856 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:37:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14852 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:37:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.109] (pm2a15.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.175]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA11392; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:41:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:41:55 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <30f15bf6.3490a73b@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: RCMathis1 From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: more (or less) about recycled windows... Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 831 Chris Mathis wrote: > >Must say that I am not too surprised that the (few) comments received about >the "20 million or so windows in the landfill per year" thread have focused on >the EASY STUFF.... the glass. What about the (1) metals? (2) plastics? (3) >lead in the paint? (4) reusable sashes? (5) hardware? (6) lubricants? Are >these things too easy? or too hard? Is anyone reclaining lead cost >effectively? Regrinding or refinishing old sash for other than artistic >reasons? Do 20 million windows MINUS THE GLASS go into landfills? What's >"the rest of the story?" > >Chris Mathis >MCSquared > >PS. If it is too boring a topic, spare the list and send me your comments >directly. If not, then we're anxiously waiting! Challenge accepted. I'd like to track down a comment I heard recently regarding glazing systems for commercial buildings. I was told that the polysulfide caulking commonly used in sealing glazing units in commercial buildings was, until a number of years ago, produced with PCBs and that this is the source of a significant pecentage of the PCBs currently in the urban runoff from many cities. Do you know anything about this? -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 12 10:08:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA05509 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:08:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA10456 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:07:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16638; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:03:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:59:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA16034 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:58:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.greenbuilder.com (web4.gomedia.com [204.96.111.84] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA16028 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:58:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:15:37 +0000 Date: Fri, 12 Dec 97 09:13:28 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: InfiNet Subject: Re(2): GBlist: A New Thread: "What's A Green Window"? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <4832382.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 832 Marc: I'm not sure on this, but some of the high performing glass with low-e coating, and even tempered glass, are not easily recycled. Not sure what next steps could be for these through the life-cycle, but a good issue to explore. Gail -- Center for Maximum Potential Building Systems cmpbs@greenbuilder.com http://www.cmpbs.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 12 10:14:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA05758 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:14:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA11823 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:13:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17418; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:09:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:05:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16757 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:04:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16751; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:04:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA140306; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:07:34 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:07:34 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Straube Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, Caaradrdbl@aol.com, TBren46501@aol.com, greenbuilding-digest@crest.org Subject: GBlist: exterior wall: vapour barrier/duplication In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 833 Contrary to the quote of below, if you want to stay away from lawyers,judges and the courts and avoid bad building science or long debates with building inspectors, one would NEVER want to tape exterior plywood with red sheathing tape to make an excellent vapour barrier (if done thoroughly) on the outside skin of an exterior wall (or roof), no matter how good an air barrier it may be. Its asset as a useful air barrier is negated by its liability as a vapour barrier, and is just academic to the detail. There are many other opportunities of making a good air barrier in a wall as previously posted. Drywall on the inside is fine for simultaneous function. Contrary to the quote of below and based on actual projects, most real-world clients prefer to avoid extraneous costs and unnecessary duplication.Therefore, if exterior rigid board insulation (ie. EPS, NOT SM) is used over studs, we generally dispense with plywood/OSB sheathing since in most cases it is redundant in utility, cost and time. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, John Straube wrote: > > Therefore, plywood on the exterior, taped with red sheathing tape, can > make an excellent air barrier system, but for real performance and > durability, insulating sheathing should be placed outside of it to stop > thermal bridging and keep the studs and plywood safe from any > exfiltration condensation that may still occur. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube > Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group > University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg > Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 > UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 > Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 > x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 12 10:15:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA05804 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:15:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA12166 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:15:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17673; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:10:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:06:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16948 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:06:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16912; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:05:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93272; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:08:16 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:08:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver Subject: GBlist: environmental heat transfer medium Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 834 Has anyone experience with a more environmentally-sound heat transfer medium that has burst protection at -40 dC, but maximum specific heat, other than DOWFROST, for application to a solar hot water collector? This propylene glycol fluid seems to have low toxcity, a temperature range of -50dF to 250dF, corrosion inhibitors and is PH balanced. IS THERE ANYTHING BETTER? Could this then also be used for radiant floor heating (in lower concentrations of course)? Any constructive comments welcomed. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 12 10:19:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA05890 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:19:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA12973 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:18:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18008; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:14:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:10:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17586 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:10:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.172]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17576 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:10:08 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501 Message-ID: <7e718c8e.34915409@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:11:02 EST To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: air-tightness of cellulose insulation Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 835 In a message dated 12/11/97 10:02:02 AM, you wrote: <> Jorg, I did air test blown cellulose back then and found it substantially more resistant to airflow than fiberglass. For data on whole houses, I'd check with Jim Fitzgerald in Minneapolis. I saw a report of research conducted by Yuil Gren at Penn State which reports no difference in the air tightness between test houses insulated with blown cellulose and those insulated with fiberglass. I'd like to chat with Gren about it because that is not my expectation (I know from bench tests that the cellulose is more resistant to airflow). Is there another air barrier in the buildings? Was special attention paid to the penetrations, cracks and gaps that cellulose would have gotten, but fiberglass wouldn't have? I don't know. If anyone is more familiar with Gren's project than I am - let me know. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 12 11:52:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA09244 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:52:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10315 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:52:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22262; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:47:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:43:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21947 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21943 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:43:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dial-76-MAX-BTVT-04.ramp.together.net [208.5.164.76]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA01908; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:47:31 -0500 Message-ID: <34916A9E.16C4@together.net> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:47:26 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IdahoCFM CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: building energy load questions References: <4c4f0a0.34908431@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 836 Chris: Interesting situation you have. If a client approached me with your problem, this is how I would go about determining the cause for the differential operating costs. Gut Feeling: My intuitive sense tells me a key HVAC control setpoint my be incorrect, economizer cycle setpoint (if applicable), air or water balance issue or a hell of a big hole in the building somewhere. These are based on previous troubleshooting adventures. Use the DDC control system graphics system to check setpoints. Are they about the same for both buildings? Are the disply values believable? (Any commissioning conducted?) Set up trend logs in the DDC graphics. Compare the systems over a time period. Economizer setpoints and functionality: the same in both building? Is building under noticable negative pressure (or positive?) Complaints of drafts in severe Winter (not in moderate weather) is a sure sign. In minimum outside air mode, correct volumes of ventilation air coming in... or too much? Check Test & Balance reports. Are flows similar and per design docs? Are balance valves/volume dampers near full open, with little flow resistance? This could dramatically increase fan and pump power. Lastly, I would look at envelope. It is surprising how many cold complaints are due to ommitted insulation or holes in the shell .... can you see daylight in a dark ceiling space? Not hi-tech, but last year that is how I finally discovered a chronic above ceiling infiltration problem. Look first at the mechanical/electrical systems..... then the envelope. Best of luck. I think you will need it. :-) Tom Anderson IdahoCFM wrote: > > Tom, > > The HVAC systems and controls are set up identically. While I can do the > homework to find out the details, the point is that the two systems work the > same way. This doesn't explain the difference between the two sections. > > The building is three stories, located in Northern Idaho. We get a full four > seasons here, with a 56% sun transmission. Again, good information but it is > identical for the two phases. > > The building uses natural gas for heating and mostly economizer cooling, but > occasionally reverts to electrical cooling. I have detailed monthly > consumption records, (therms, KWH and demand charge) for the last 12 months. > > And, yes, I did mean to refer to cost/sf/YEAR! Thanks... > > Chris Meyer > Parkwood Business Properties ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 12 13:08:21 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA11663 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA04569 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:07:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26500; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:59:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26170 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26164 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:59:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from eei.org by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: mail.eei.org [204.254.108.2]) id QQdtqe13848; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:03:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from WPDomain-Message_Server by eei.org with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:02:47 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:04:36 -0500 From: Harvey Sachs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, HEINONEN@nmeri.unm.edu Subject: GBlist: re: environmental heat transfer medium Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 837 Jorg Ostrowski asks if anyone has information on environmentally preferred freeze depressants for solar hot water heaters. ASHRAE 908-RP, Assessment of Anti-Freeze Solutions for Ground-Source Heat Pump Systems, was published in 1997. The full document is available for $18 each + $5/order for shipping from the GHPC, 1-888-ALL-4-GEO. The principal author was Mr. Everett Heinonen, U. of New Mexico, For most purposes, its Executive Summary, which includes the key table comparing alternative antifreezes, is available free from GHPC. same #, or pull off our web site, . DowFrost is an excellent choice; its major disadvantages are slightly higher first cost, and higher viscosity at very low temperatures. Other fluids commonly used in geothermal applications include methanol+inhibitors and ethanol+inhibitors. harvey sachs, ghpc technical director ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 12 13:37:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA12577 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:37:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA13155 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:37:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA27639; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:32:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:28:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA27313 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:28:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA27309 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:28:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.97] (pa-ppp12.hevanet.com [204.119.60.97]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14452 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:32:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:30:16 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: exterior wall: vapour barrier/duplication Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 838 Hi, Jorg-- In Oregon most builders who use foam cladding would still apply the exterior plywood or OSB for its shear value (we are in earthquake Zone 2). Otherwise the shear panels will have to be on the interior walls and the exterior walls will have to have strapping or let-in bracing, both of which seem to conflict with where the windows want to go. Yet another argument for SIPs? Best, Mike > >Contrary to the quote of below and based on actual projects, most real-world >clients prefer to avoid extraneous costs and unnecessary >duplication.Therefore, >if exterior rigid board insulation (ie. EPS, NOT SM) is used over studs, we >generally dispense with plywood/OSB sheathing since in most cases it is >redundant in utility, cost and time. >_________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Earth Smart Program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 12 14:20:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA14144 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA25521 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:19:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29642; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:15:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:11:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA29288 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:10:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA29280 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:10:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA17248 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:14:34 -0500 Message-id: <1620668@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 12 Dec 97 14:19:56 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: exterior wall: vapour barrier/duplication To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 839 --- You wrote: one would NEVER want to tape exterior plywood with red sheathing tape to make an excellent vapour barrier (if done thoroughly) on the outside skin of an exterior wall (or roof), no matter how good an air barrier it may be. Its asset as a useful air barrier is negated by its liability as a vapour barrier, and is just academic to the detail. There are many other opportunities of making a good air barrier in a wall as previously posted. Drywall on the inside is fine for simultaneous function. --- end of quoted material --- Jorg My understanding is that diffusion rates are proportional to area and permeability. The plywood is a modest vapor retarder, and the cracks between the plywood sheets represent a trivial amount of area (though not to AIR leakage) so that whether they are taped or not is not important. The amount of diffusion occurring through the crack is negligible, so taping makes no difference in the ability of the wall to dry out. --- You wrote: Contrary to the quote of below and based on actual projects, most real-world clients prefer to avoid extraneous costs and unnecessary duplication.Therefore, if exterior rigid board insulation (ie. EPS, NOT SM) is used over studs, we generally dispense with plywood/OSB sheathing since in most cases it is redundant in utility, cost and time. --- end of quoted material --- This is true, but I worry about not having a barrier more robust than a layer of foam between the inside and outside of a house. What about rodents and insects? Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 12 15:08:54 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15807 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:08:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA09578 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:08:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02590; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:03:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:58:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01606 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:58:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01561; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:58:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet3.carleton.ca [134.117.136.23]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v2.01) with ESMTP id PAA25080; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:00:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id PAA23446; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:00:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:00:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712122000.PAA23446@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: environmental heat tranfer medium Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 840 on Fri Dec 12 1997 jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca ("Jorg D. Ostrowski") wrote: [ snipped ] > propylene glycol seems to have low toxcity, a temperature > range of -50dF to 250dF, corrosion inhibitors and is PH > balanced. IS THERE ANYTHING BETTER? Hello Jorg; I don't know what the specific heat of chicken soup is but I do know that you can still burn your danged tongue on it long after an equivalent amount of plain hot water has cooled down (it's the oils doncha know). No, I'm not suggesting that you run chicken soup through your solar hot water collector but I can't help but wonder what if any, would be the negative points of running something like canola oil through it. As far as I know, it doesn't freeze at -50 degF ... nor boil at 250 degF. Corrosion certainly wouldn't be a problem. If toxicity is a problem, then I should be dead by now. OTOH, I don't think that I'd care to cook-up my vegetables in a wok lubricated with propylene glycol. pH ? Here's a hand-D grooming secret... a little vegetable oil slathered onto the body each day will will ensure that chapped lips, dry skin, dandruff and rusty zippers are problems of the past. -- Rob Tom (Mazola Poster Boy, 1993) ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 12 15:09:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15821 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:09:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA09696 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:08:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02693; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:59:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01756 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:59:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01736 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 14:59:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA111454; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:01:40 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:01:40 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Mike O'Brien" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: "let-ins" vs wall sheathing In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 841 Mike: Yes plywood and OSB give you good racking strength until drywall is up and it doubles as a good surface for stucco wire attachment. However, when cladding the exterior wall with continuous rigid board insulation, the plywood/OSB is far more expensive from an environmental, labour and material cost compared to wood or metal "let-ins" which have far less embodied energy, resource depletion and manufacturing emissions than continuous sheathing which in my opinion is REDUNDANT in this application. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Mike O'Brien wrote: > Hi, Jorg-- > > In Oregon most builders who use foam cladding would still apply the > exterior plywood or OSB for its shear value (we are in earthquake Zone 2). > Otherwise the shear panels will have to be on the interior walls and the > exterior walls will have to have strapping or let-in bracing, both of which > seem to conflict with where the windows want to go. > > Yet another argument for SIPs? > > Best, Mike > > > >Contrary to the quote of below and based on actual projects, most real-world > >clients prefer to avoid extraneous costs and unnecessary > >duplication.Therefore, > >if exterior rigid board insulation (ie. EPS, NOT SM) is used over studs, we > >generally dispense with plywood/OSB sheathing since in most cases it is > >redundant in utility, cost and time. > >_________________________________________________________ > > O'Brien & Associates > Environmental Building Consultants > Earth Smart Program > obrien@hevanet.com > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 12 19:05:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA23231 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:05:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA11916 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:04:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11600; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:00:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:56:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA11311 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:55:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.172]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11307 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:55:56 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <29eccfbc.3491cb3e@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 18:34:45 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Structural stress skin panels Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 842 Greetings greenbuilders, Proponents of structural stress skin panels seem to wonder why we conservative old poops don't drop hundreds of years of evolution of building traditions and jump right in with both feet. My own reluctance comes from having been a remodelling contractor on well over two hundred jobs and seeing what workmanship and maintainence are like in the real world. The beauty of stick frame construction, along with the simplicity of construction and renovation that others have expounded upon, are the structural redundancies in the system. It takes a hell of a lot to cause a catastrophic structural failure in a stick frame building. I've never seen one. All those jobs have also shown me what a miraculous material water is. It seems to get everywhere if one is not paranoid about water control details. If typical trades people install flashings, roofing, siding, windows, etc. on structural insulated panel buildings, and those buildings are maintained with the typical care that homeowners take, then there are bound to be significant water infiltrations issues. While these may not be major in simple gable roof structures, as soon as you start adding angles and valleys and dormers, the water can get to places where delamination of panels could weaken a building to the point of catastrophic structural failure. I'm no engineer or scientist. I just go on experience of seeing horrible level of workmanship in the field; total ignorance of maintanance issues by most homeowners; the effects of water on osb, plywood, panels, foam, etc.; and paying for mistakes my crews have made over the last fifteen years. Insulated panels make the perfect enclosure for timber frames. No doubt the most elegant and durable way to build today. Anyone interested in this debate should really give Stewart Brand's book "How Buildings Learn" a good read. Time is an amazing force. Coupled with people and water it can really be hell on buildings. I'll be conservative and opt for structural redundancy of either timbers or sticks, and leave the foam for insulation. Fred Unger, Berkley Massachusetts ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 12 21:42:47 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA27817 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:42:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA14441 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:42:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15745; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:37:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:33:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15509 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:33:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15505 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:33:22 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:53:18 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: energy analysis software Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 843 Does anyone know of any easy to use, residential energy analysis software for the Macintosh. Thanks in advance, Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 12 22:24:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA28851 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:24:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA24128 for ; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA17113; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:19:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:15:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA16679 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:14:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16664; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 22:14:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA115600; Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:17:55 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:17:54 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Robert W. Tom" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: re: environmental heat tranfer medium In-Reply-To: <199712122000.PAA23446@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 844 Tom: I said "better" not "more delicious". If I now use your suggestion of canola oil in my solar system, I will divert my supply line directly into my cooking wok instead of the hot water tank. What do you think of that? I will check with the safeway cashier to see if it will work. Jorg _____________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 12 Dec 1997, Robert W. Tom wrote: > on Fri Dec 12 1997 > jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca ("Jorg D. Ostrowski") wrote: > > > propylene glycol seems to have low toxcity, a temperature > > range of -50dF to 250dF, corrosion inhibitors and is PH > > balanced. IS THERE ANYTHING BETTER? > > Hello Jorg; > > I don't know what the specific heat of chicken soup is but I do > know that you can still burn your danged tongue on it long after > an equivalent amount of plain hot water has cooled down (it's the > oils doncha know). > > No, I'm not suggesting that you run chicken soup through your > solar hot water collector but I can't help but wonder what if > any, would be the negative points of running something like > canola oil through it. > > As far as I know, it doesn't freeze at -50 degF ... nor boil at > 250 degF. Corrosion certainly wouldn't be a problem. > > If toxicity is a problem, then I should be dead by now. > OTOH, I don't think that I'd care to cook-up my vegetables in a > wok lubricated with propylene glycol. > > pH ? Here's a hand-D grooming secret... a little vegetable oil > slathered onto the body each day will will ensure that chapped > lips, dry skin, dandruff and rusty zippers are problems of the past. > > -- > Rob Tom > (Mazola Poster Boy, 1993) > ---------- * ------------ > be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca > Kanata, Ontario, Canada > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 13 16:50:14 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA28503 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:50:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA15681 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:49:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11645; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:45:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:40:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11277 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:39:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11273 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:39:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.25] (blf3.acadia.net [205.217.217.3]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA04972 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:44:18 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:42:27 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Let-in bracing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 845 Does anyone on the list have hard data on how much lateral load resistance can be developed in a wall with let-in wood or metal bracing? In Maine, we're not in a high risk seismic zone, but we DO experience strong wind loading on buildings - especially on the coast, where 100 mph is a prudent design standard. With the proper nailing schedule, plywood and OSB can develop 800 lb./lft. lateral load resistance. There have been times when we could use that. I've been unable to find an economical way to provide a nail base for shingle or shake siding without using plywood or OSB - rainscreen strapping at 5 inches on center is pretty expensive. Being restricted to clapboards is a drag - in our area, we have Certified Well-Managed Forest eastern cedar shingles available, and we like to use them. So the day someone invents a vapor permeable, recycled content, nail base sheathing with built-in rainscreen, I'll use it ( Homosote ain't it - not in our climate!), but in the meantime, we will use plywood and OSB for certain jobs. We have also used let-in bracing with Homosote or EPS sheathing, vertical 1 by 3 over studs for rainscreen and horizontal bevel siding - a great system, but not the ONLY answer for EVERY application. As a designer, I'm struck sometimes by how much of this discussion is gadget and technique oriented - as if gadgets and techniques were ends unto themselves, rather than means to decent human environments. (Boy, I bet that will stir up some comments!) - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 14 10:12:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21222 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:12:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA20013 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:11:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02624; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:07:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:02:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02389 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:01:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02385 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:01:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.25.64.199] (usr2a3.rut.sover.net [206.25.64.199]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08071; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:06:05 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <7e718c8e.34915409@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 10:02:08 -0500 To: TBren46501 , jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: air-tightness of cellulose insulation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 846 TBren46501 wrote: > >I did air test blown cellulose back then and found it substantially more >resistant to airflow than fiberglass. For data on whole houses, I'd check >with Jim Fitzgerald in Minneapolis. I saw a report of research conducted by >Yuil Gren at Penn State which reports no difference in the air tightness >between test houses insulated with blown cellulose and those insulated with >fiberglass. I'd like to chat with Gren about it because that is not my >expectation (I know from bench tests that the cellulose is more resistant to >airflow). Is there another air barrier in the buildings? Was special >attention paid to the penetrations, cracks and gaps that cellulose would have >gotten, but fiberglass wouldn't have? I don't know. If anyone is more >familiar with Gren's project than I am - let me know. - Terry I also so these reports, and wondered. They are sponsored by the fiberglass industry (Owens Corning?), which may be a clue, but I was told Gren has a good reputation. I'd love to know what the story is here. Nadav ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 14 13:24:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA23488 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:24:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA07614 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 13:23:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06746; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:36:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:32:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06514 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:32:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from november.diac.com (root@diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06510 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 12:32:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from p129.ts1.diac.com (p129.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.129]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA27323 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 17:36:52 GMT Received: by p129.ts1.diac.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BD087F.A8311660@p129.ts1.diac.com>; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:01:41 -0700 Message-ID: <01BD087F.A8311660@p129.ts1.diac.com> From: Gary Dean Gray To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: greenbuilding-digest V1 #475 Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:01:08 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD087F.A8498060" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 847 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD087F.A8498060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 16:42:27 -0400 From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Let-in bracing Does anyone on the list have hard data on how much lateral load = resistance can be developed in a wall with let-in wood or metal bracing? - - David Foley No hard data, but I doubt that 1 x 4 let-in wood bracing provides ANY = lateral load resistance in practice. Typically, the top end of let-in = braces are cut flush to the upper surface of the top plate before the = wall is tilted up. They might even be cut short so that they won't stand = proud when the wall is plumbed. This means several nails placed at less = than 3/4 inch from the end of the let-in brace. Virtually impossible to = nail without splitting the wood. Even done properly the value is = questionable. I was a frame carpenter for more than a decade but I have no experience = with metal let-in or coil bracing. I pulled out my Simpson catalog to = see what the hard data numbers are -- it didn't have any. Quote: "Designed to fulfill the same code bracing requirements as 1 x 4 let-in = bracing, but less expensive and faster to install. resists racking = during construction. Not designed to replace shearwall load-carring = components". --- Gary Sustainable Design Resource Guide http://aiacolorado.org/sdrg/index.html ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD087F.A8498060 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IikSAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG ADABAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAE0AAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABncmVlbmJ1aWxkaW5nQGNyZXN0Lm9yZwBTTVRQAGdyZWVuYnVpbGRpbmdAY3Jlc3Qu b3JnAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgADMAEAAAAYAAAAZ3JlZW5idWlsZGluZ0BjcmVz dC5vcmcAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAGgAAACdncmVlbmJ1aWxkaW5nQGNyZXN0Lm9y ZycAAAACAQswAQAAAB0AAABTTVRQOkdSRUVOQlVJTERJTkdAQ1JFU1QuT1JHAAAAAAMAADkAAAAA CwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAADZjsBCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90 ZQAxCAEEgAEAIQAAAFJFOiBncmVlbmJ1aWxkaW5nLWRpZ2VzdCBWMSAjNDc1AIcKAQWAAwAOAAAA zQcMAA4ACwABAAgAAAACAQEggAMADgAAAM0HDAAOAAoAGwATAAAAJgEBCYABACEAAAAyQzdGMzg2 NDY4NzREMTExQTAxQzQ0NDU1MzU0MDAwMAC+BgEDkAYAEAYAABIAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAA CwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQAgNAxBugi9AR4AcAABAAAAIQAAAFJFOiBncmVlbmJ1aWxkaW5n LWRpZ2VzdCBWMSAjNDc1AAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG9CLpAwWQ4fy10aBHRoBxERVNUAAAAAB4A HgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAAPAAAAZ2dyYXlAZGlhYy5jb20AAAMABhADPUEBAwAH EBQEAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABEQVRFOlNBVCwxM0RFQzE5OTcxNjo0MjoyNy0wNDAwRlJPTTpETUZP TEVZQEFDQURJQU5FVChEQVZJRE1GT0xFWSlTVUJKRUNUOkdCTElTVDpMRVQtSU5CUkFDSU5HRE9F U0FOAAAAAAIBCRABAAAAjQQAAIkEAAB1BwAATFpGdQZHq4P/AAoBDwIVAqgF6wKDAFAC8gkCAGNo CsBzZXQyNwYABsMCgzIDxQIAcHJCcRHic3RlbQKDM3cC5AcTAoB9CoAIzwnZO/EWDzI1NQKACoEN sQtg4G5nMTAzFFALChRRawvyE1BvE9BjBUAKi2w4aTM2GpEZ7xryRGEFE9A6BgF0LCAxM0cdsAWQ HmA5OTceYDYgOjQyOjIfEC0wNDQwCnZGA2EeAGRtIQIQbGV5QADQYWRJBzAubhHAICgdwHa0aWQF 0C4gcCESKQqFMFN1Ymoa8R4AR0JXHAATwB4ATBHALQuAIGxicgDQC4BnCoUKhUSWbweRAHB5AiBl IAIgWCB0aCbwJDIgEYB2VybwEYEiYGQd0GEnAmjybwfgbXURcCdwHdElEPcDIBWgIYAgFhAAkBPA AHDUY2UcXWMAQCAK4Rx/fxryIXAk4SbwDbAn8BWgcO0JgCAk0SigdwdAAyAD8OcnQCdwJKR3bwRw JwAFwK8HgAGQAyAlBT8KhS0x0c8iJCKzCo8rTE5vKBgeULRidQVASSDQCGBiBUCHJ0Ad0B5gIHgg NC+bHSUFIBqxIkEHkUFOWZ8pfyqFLqITUADQdGkq0LEikFR5cDsgLxF5HlC1J0J0LmAgCfAwQWYv lj8lAiZyFhAtkDWxGOB1c2cpYDxgJzN1cC5wBcBz/QhwZj2hPNI8JgtRE9At0f8CED4BJ0IvAwQA JzADEBPQLyJgP0A7USdQeSkgaWf+aAVALiEtwz4yPqAVsT+Qnz7iNoEnQUNAMBBuJ0Rh1yqhImAa sXUiYHcnUCck+0HmC1B1BtAJgELyQjEHgK8GIhGwJ/A5Ym4LcGxHwn89oSJgNoEhIAQRNmEDoDP+ LzbwC4ApUQNSJzM8pSdD0z0pIpBWaQAgdTvCLqDobXBvBBBpAmA8QkmT/y9DCGBEYQtQL2A7EDgh QaP7MCEikEVD0jYAJuEasT9hu05hJ0J2B0AKUEIicQpQ3RPAaQIgAaAhIC4lfDXgty8AJoFLwWEH gC2Rci5w/wIwP3FBUSkgQWQDkSigBYEvIYBBETWzJ9NuNNBleP8/YQiQOmIvUzCUL6UFsQWgzwMR JQUikDXgcHUvIC6B9VACbUNAU06RROADoCFw/TCxb1DBNNARsEHBRSUoGe5uSAIRoD3jLTHgL2Ag 0J8iUEXSJ9MmoSKQUXUa0do6JXwiHqAAkGch0CJgdT7RZlwQZgMQAyAnQnP/VdMEcTfHFhBTgE4A E+BWUf8mgQQgNrslBTWESqNZAgCB/2EzImA/0BPBBcA+0QuAKpFfLyAikCpUBCAlEWs4EmTvCHE4 IQWgaiFyKUBTwiKQfzTAYIFjGRYQSgNEcUjQcvsvAyoCLVYRa8VOoSHQZjHWIlRNYEAtMtVHCsAy xv8jgCqRC4BUAh6RYyIH8AeQewhhOnFHZdANsDLVQ5B08HA6Ly8LcADQFZIhgIRvLgWwZy9zZHaR kwuADbB4LkOQbWwlfP8bPxxPGs552niMM694j3mfX3qvfw+AH3yjFTEAhEAAAAADABAQAAAAAAMA ERAAAAAAQAAHMOA3ooe1CL0BQAAIMOA3ooe1CL0BHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAACTxA== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD087F.A8498060-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 14 23:49:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA07662 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:49:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA01027 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:48:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA25583; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:43:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:38:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25229 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:37:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from iceland.it.earthlink.net (iceland-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25225 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 23:37:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust39.tnt12.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.33.39]) by iceland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA23538 for ; Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:41:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3494B52C.79FC@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 20:42:20 -0800 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Low-slope roofing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 848 Here's another proposed thread for the Holidays: low slope roofing. EBN did a good review of sloped-roof materials some time back, but we are facing a different question now (Alex & Nadav, consider this a Hint). Greg VanMechelen and I have been charged with writing a green spec on a proposed house I have been hired to build in the Oakland hills. It has a number of barrel-vault roofs, which means having areas of zero-slope. The main architect on the job wants a standing-seam roof, but it will require something of a heavy membrane below. I would just assume do a layer of modified mono-ply bitumen ("torch-on"), but that alone would be a good material without the metal on top (talk about high-embodied energy). What about other membranes such as EPDM or PVC? It would seem to me that durability will be high on the list of "green" criteria - fewer re-roofings, less consumption. Any thoughts? Seth Melchert Master Builders ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 15 08:54:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA19126 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:54:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA10425 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:53:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06629; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:48:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:44:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA06296 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:44:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from uu7.psi.com (uu7.psi.com [38.8.39.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06292 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 08:44:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgate.nyserda.org by uu7.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.940727-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP; id AA26468 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 15 Dec 97 08:49:06 -0500 Received: from ccMail by mailgate.nyserda.org (ccMail Link to SMTP R6.01.01) id AA882191730; Mon, 15 Dec 97 09:03:44 -0500 Message-Id: <9712158821.AA882191730@mailgate.nyserda.org> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.01.01 Date: Mon, 15 Dec 97 08:00:28 -0500 From: "Craig Kneeland" To: Subject: GBlist: Recycling glass Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 849 The New York State Energy Research and Development Authority has three projects underway that may be of interest. They are: "Use of Recycled Glass and Fly Ash for Precast Concrete Products" (contact: Nag Patibandla, 518-862-1090, ext. 3301); "Recycled Glass in Concrete Blocks" (contact: Bob Carver; 518-862-1090, ext. 3242); and Evaluating Pulverized-Glass Sand for Environmental Applications (contact: Tom Fiesinger, 518-862-1090, ext.3218). ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 15 09:20:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA19678 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:20:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA16440 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:19:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07695; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:15:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:11:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07293 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:11:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07288 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:11:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA137786; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:13:35 -0700 Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 07:13:34 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: David Melchert Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Low-slope roofing In-Reply-To: <3494B52C.79FC@earthlink.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 850 David: Have you investigated elastomeric polymer roofing? In your climate its reflectivity would also be very helpful for reducing unwanted summer heat gain. Any colour is available. It is a latex-based breathing material and can be painted, sprayed or rolled on many difference substrates. We have used it in this application and also over regular stucco to overcome one of the main disadvantages of stucco. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Sun, 14 Dec 1997, David Melchert wrote: > > What about other membranes such as EPDM or PVC? It would seem to me that > durability will be high on the list of "green" criteria - fewer > re-roofings, less consumption. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 15 09:48:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA20439 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:48:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA23602 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:48:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09184; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:43:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:39:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA08732 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:39:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from beta.nova.org (beta.nova.org [209.31.144.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08722 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:39:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (pm2-13.dial.nova.org [209.31.144.237]) by beta.nova.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA18300 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:43:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34956C75.14D9@infiltec.com> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:44:21 -0800 From: David Saum Reply-To: dsaum@nova.org Organization: Infiltec X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: CO2 buget for individual? References: <199712150700.CAA28534@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 851 Anyone have a source for how to compute the C02 budget for a typical US citizen? 1. home? 2. car? 3. respiration? 4. vegitation? 5. other? And how does CO2 generation by individuals compare to generation by industry? TIA, Dave Saum Infiltec Air Leakage Control http://www.infiltec.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 15 11:01:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA22376 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:01:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA26654 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:00:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12314; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:49:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11917 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:49:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11913 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:49:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.139] (pm2a20.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.180]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA29431; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:54:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 10:54:03 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34956C75.14D9@infiltec.com> References: <199712150700.CAA28534@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: dsaum@nova.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: CO2 buget for individual? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 852 David Saum asked: >Anyone have a source for how to compute >the C02 budget for a typical US citizen? > Check out ACEEE's "Consumer Guide to Home Energy Savings." I included Appendix 1 in that book to address just this question. I did that in 1989 or 90, but I think the information is still pretty good. While the CO2 information hasn't changed, John Morrill and I revise other copy as needed, and John does a great job updating lists of the most efficient heating and cooling equipment and appliances. The current edition is 1996, but new one is in production. Book can be ordered from the American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy: 202/429-8873. Alex Wilson, Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 15 13:28:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA26036 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:28:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA15376 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:27:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19465; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:23:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:19:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19098 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:18:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19093 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:18:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust187.tnt1.clearwater.fl.gt.uu.net [208.255.243.187]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id MAA15919; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:21:19 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <349575FC.51C9@gte.net> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:25:00 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenYes@ucsd.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: Green Schools] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3BA5FE13576" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 853 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3BA5FE13576 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My apologies in advance to those on the GreenYes site who may not be interested in green architecture. Personally, I think the new environmental studies center at Oberlin College, designed by Bill McDonough, is what all our educational facilities should someday aspire to. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development --------------3BA5FE13576 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from relay1.mailsrvcs.net ([192.168.129.40]) by mta1.gte.net (Intermail v3.1 117 223) with ESMTP id <19971213210047.TNPE21015@relay1.mailsrvcs.net> for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:00:47 -0600 Received: from pimout1-int.prodigy.net (pimout1-ext.prodigy.net [198.83.18.53]) by relay1.mailsrvcs.net with ESMTP id OAA05782 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 14:58:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from default (slip166-72-154-92.pa.us.ibm.net [166.72.154.92]) by pimout1-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA53380 for ; Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:56:19 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971213125539.006c3aa0@pop.prodigy.net> X-Sender: chirho@pop.prodigy.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:55:39 -0500 To: Cindy/Mike Shea From: chirho Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Schools In-Reply-To: <34832BAC.1E1A@gte.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 You might want to pass this link along to the list, I have unsubbed for the holidays: http://www.mcdonough.com/oberlin.html Peace. Anne Boyes At 04:27 PM 12/1/97 -0500, you wrote: >Jorg, > >Are you familiar with the new Environmental Studies Center at Oberlin >College that was designed by Bill McDonough and Partners? It will have >a living machine, classrooms, offices, auditorium, atrium, resource >center, meeting room, and kitchen. I'm not sure if the project is on >Bill's website yet, but if you want to check, try >http://urban.arch.Virginia.EDU/Dean/ >I also recall some impressive First Nation's schools designed in >conjunction with UBC. Ray Cole should have info. Good luck and keep us >informed about what you're planning. > >Cindy Pollock Shea >Promoting Sustainable Development > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > --------------3BA5FE13576-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 15 14:10:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA27193 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA01569 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:10:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21646; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:05:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:01:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA21353 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:01:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21347 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:01:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust187.tnt1.clearwater.fl.gt.uu.net [208.255.243.187]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id NAA23246; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 13:04:06 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34958003.108D@gte.net> Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:07:47 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dsaum@nova.org CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: CO2 buget for individual? References: <199712150700.CAA28534@solstice.crest.org> <34956C75.14D9@infiltec.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 854 David, Scientific Certification Systems in Oakland, CA, has been working on a personal environmental report card for years. I don't have a web site address, but their phone # is 800-ECO-FACTS or 510-832-1415. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 15 15:13:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA28702 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:13:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA25802 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:12:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24863; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:04:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA24555 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:03:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24550 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:03:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PAQ00434; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 15:06:58 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 11:05:18 -0900 Subject: GBlist: Re:Tyvek, Air barriers, tape- Panels! Message-ID: <19971215.110521.3774.2.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199712110700.CAA10750@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,9-10,14-17 From: woodeneagle@juno.com (R. Scott Waterman) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 855 Chris: Where does it say that you don't have to use air or vapor barriers on SIP homes? I am looking at that option for a 1400+s.f. home in Wasilla, Alaska, and all the manuf acturers recommend a vapor barrier....and building sciences says I should care as well....I have not seen any buildings go up with SIPs, but the prospect intrigues me....ONe concern I have is noise...I have heared that sound transmission is greater with SIPs than conventional framing...any truth to that rumor? What other advantages/disadvantatges are you aware of? Regarding the petrochemicals in SIP production, I know that pentane is used as the primary blowing agent, though I have no idea of the quantities......it seems to me the panels are relatively benign, environmentally... Scott Waterman Wasilla, Alaska ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 15 17:07:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA01558 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:07:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA17540 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:07:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01253; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:02:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:58:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00938 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:58:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from igcb.igc.org (igcb.igc.apc.org [192.82.108.46]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00932 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:58:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from igc2.igc.apc.org (root@igc2.igc.org [192.82.108.39]) by igcb.igc.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA04160; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:00:10 -0800 (PST) Received: (from myonke) by igc2.igc.apc.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14221; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:00:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 14:00:07 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199712152200.OAA14221@igc2.igc.apc.org> From: Michael Yonke To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: magnetic water conditioning Cc: kammdun@tcsn.net Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 856 Hello All! In response to the recent thread covering laundry disks, GMX magnetic "pseudo" water softeners and water line clamp on magnets, I offer some clarification of terminology, a brief explanation of related technology, and additional food for thought. I have been researching magnetic water conditioning for several years. I use the word conditioning, as it is better to use softening to describe an ion (charged particle) exchange process (sodium for calcium),i.e., the standard salt regeneration units used in millions of homes. A shared similarity, the magnetic devices create the same "condition" in water as water softeners by reducing the amount potential soap precipitating ions, but in an entirely different manner. A very brief description of how magnetic water conditioning works: The magnetic field polarizes (aligns by charge) aqueous ions, mainly calcium in the form of calcium carbonate(hardness mineral). Carbonate (calcium + carbon + oxygen) crystal nuclei appear. The carbonate molecules collodially "bond" into a larger molecular lattice. Like a group "holding hands", this reduces the amount of potential bonding sites to latch onto and precipitate out soap molecules. Nothing is added or removed from the water. After magnetic treatment, water has a greater capacity (solubility) to dissolve the existing scale it encounters and allows detergents to work more efficiently. If necessary, there are separation devices available that will remove the carbonate colloids from the water. The main variables at play in this technology are; magnetic field strength and orientation, the duration of field contact, the fluid flow velocity and induced electric field. Heating, cooling and phase changes(entropy) are also factors. Improperly apply the variables, or in the wrong location of a dynamic system, and well intentioned magnetic water conditioning devices will not work, i.e., clamping any old magnet on a water pipe. Magnetic water conditioning technology is used with great and well documented success in the former Soviet Union (for decades) and numerous very large industrial installations in the United States. Scientific literature indicates; under some laboratory tests this technology has failed miserably and in other tests has paradoxically performed well. I believe the failed tests may be due to improper application of the above described variables or incorrect placement of devices in the system. With many potentially fruitful "free lunch" technologies down through the years, are claims of fraud, hoax and skepticism. Rightfully so in the case of magnetic water conditioning. The, conflicting lab tests, improper application, false promises and get rich quick schemes, etc., have really hurt popular acceptance. >From my experience, properly designed and deployed magnetic water conditioning units work. While I am unfamiliar with the laundry disks, I suspect (my opinion) they are mixing the "apples and oranges" of water conditioning technology. Zeolites and borax ( ion exchange) for softening, and possibly ceramic magnets to group the carbonate minerals to reduce bonding sites. From my knowledge of magnetic field density and orientation, a floating ball of ceramic magnets would not be a very effective magnetic water conditioner. Also, if these disks are using zeolites to gather the stray ions in the water, i.e., making pure water, you would have a great solvent, not a great cleaner. Incidentally, ultra-pure water is such a great solvent it will easily dissolve the enamel from your teeth, leech the minerals from your bones and make one good, strong cup of drip coffee (don't try it)! For environmental building and implementation of sustainable technology, I believe magnetic water conditioning devices have a very significant contribution to make. The potential application, variables of installation and manufacturer should be checked out thoroughly. I hope this helps to reduce the general sense of "hoax vs. real" polarization which haunts this technology. Something I learned from the related GBlist discussion and recent experimentation, using half the amount of laundry detergent cleans my clothes just fine! Over looking the simple seems to be human nature. Best Regards, Michael Yonke /_/ Lotech Consulting -appropriate and sustainable technology /_/ ------------------------------- >Some collected and edited comments from this thread in the recent GBlist past:< ------------------------------ Subject: Re: GBlist: water (pseudo?)softeners I've heard of these ceramic discs are meant to replace detergents altogether... somehow it softens the water (or ionizes it or something).... I would be reluctant to take the...risk, but over time, would be highly cost effective....Hoax or innovation - does anyone know? ------------------------------ Subject: GBlist: Laundry Disk Research [Very good background discussion] ------------------------------------ Subject: GBlist: GMX magnetic water (pseudo?)softeners ....I tested a couple magnetic water softeners extensively a few years ago...They did not do a thing....which were predicted by their manufacturers to significantly reduce fouling[scaling]....there was no difference at all as compared to using no magnetic devices. The tests were very well monitored, and conducted over extended periods of time. ------------------------------ Subject: Re: GBlist: GMX magnetic water (pseudo?)softeners The best magnetic 'liquid realignment' story is from a guy at Brookhaven...he put them in his wife's car, which promptly had a engine fire several days later. ------------------------------ Subject: Re: GBlist: GMX magnetic water (pseudo?)softeners My neighbor is making a killing selling these things. They sell for hundreds of dollars .....but basically it is another pyramid scheme. ------------------------------ Subject: Re: GBlist: GMX magnetic water (pseudo?)softeners GMX water softeners.... claim that they can eliminate scaling and soften water, just by attaching some magnets to the water line....sounds like the perfect hoax, but....pretty convincing ....gullible.... I looked into it. I got back three responses, all very negative. I'm now convinced that the GMX is not worth spending any more money or time on." ...regarding green solutions in general, I agree with the recent posting that suggested there are far too many 'gadgets' available to solve our various green building problems. Unless one takes on the task of setting up a personal experiment station as a residence..... ------------------------------ Subject: RE: GBlist: GMX magnetic water (pseudo?)softeners ....We didn't buy it. Maybe it works, but if you're considering purchasing it, I recommend testing it first. ------------------------------ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 15 17:25:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA02976 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:25:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA24169 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:24:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA02063; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:20:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:16:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA01743 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:16:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01737 for ; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:16:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id RYG00434; Mon, 15 Dec 1997 17:18:55 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: healthyp@ix.netcom.com Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 12:06:01 -0900 Subject: GBlist: Re:Alaska Recycled Paperwoods Message-ID: <19971215.131738.3774.3.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199712112001.PAA09096@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-7,9-14 From: woodeneagle@juno.com (R. Scott Waterman) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 857 Robin: Thecontact info for Alaska Recycled Paperwoods is: Harvey Bowers 305 S. Bartlett Circle Wasilla, AK 99654 907-376-2294 They are still working on different materials, and seemed to have a lot of good ideas in the hopper when last I talked to Harvey...... Scott Waterman Weatherization Assistance Program Manager Alaska Housing Finance Corporation Anchorage, Alaska ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 16 08:12:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA26835 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:12:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA11912 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:11:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA22481; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:07:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:02:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA22264 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:02:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA22260 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:02:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA02347; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:05:30 -0500 Message-id: <1649390@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 16 Dec 97 08:10:59 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Re: Ultra-low electricity consumption dwelling Europe To: wimdg@agoranet.be Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 858 --- You wrote: The best models (also completely CFC-,HCFC and HFC-free) are AEG =D6ko-Santo-Super (91 kWh/year, 168 liters netto volume, Liebherr KTe 1580 (106 kWh/year, volume 144 liters), Siemens KT 16 RS 0/KT 18 RF 2 (109,5 kWh/year, 153 liters). --- end of quoted material --- Thanks, Wim. Are these refrigerator-only models, or do they include a freezer section? As you must know, even as all-fridge units, these 3 products are all very small compared to north american refrigerators (5.9, 5.1, 5.4 ft3). And freezer compartments use more energy than the fridge sections. So it seems that the energy savings here are due primarily to lifestyle decisions (which I'm not discounting!) but they may be somewhat akin to what was common in the US during the passive solar boom, wherein people would report very low energy use figures, and I would discover by visiting that they kept their home at 60F! So it is helpful for me to distinguish energy savings based on better design from energy savings based on an individual's choices about what they need. Although I believe that the latter is actually the more powerful lever to pull on, we can only evelauate our technology and design success by comparing the same level of service. For example, I've eliminated the electrical usage requirements of my TV, VCR, microwave, and dishwasher by not owning them! And of my dryer by not using it! Hardly everyone's choices. Did you say whether any electricity goes to ventilation in your home? Finally - I also have measured the parasitic appliance drains you speak of, and have often said that appliances should have three way switches - On, Off, and Really Off. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 16 08:47:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA27610 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:47:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA18949 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:47:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23706; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:42:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:38:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA23367 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:38:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from c2smtp.payette.com (c2smtp.payette.com [199.232.148.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23363 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:38:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from NetWare MHS (SMF70) by c2smtp.payette.com via Connect2-SMTP 4.01.b32G; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:45:00 -0500 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 8:44:53 -5000 From: Daniel Arons Organization: Payette Associates Inc. To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Structural stress skin panels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.01.b32G MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 859 Fred Unger wrote: > While these may not be major in simple gable > roof structures, as soon as you start adding angles and valleys and > dormers, the water can get to places where delamination of panels > could weaken a building to the point of catastrophic structural > failure. We should all keep in mind that every system has its pros and cons. No system is perfect in every situation. When deciding on building components we must take into account everything from the geometry that it will be maintained to the likelihood that it will be maintained. Further, once a system is decided upon, don't think that it must cover every detail on the building. A house that is otherwise suited to SIPs may very well deserve the flexibility of stick built dormers. ********************** Daniel Arons Architect Payette Associates, Inc (617)342-8201 ext. 324 darons@payette.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 16 08:51:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA27940 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:51:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA19836 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:50:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23983; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:46:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:42:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA23671 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23667 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:42:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA04337 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:46:08 -0500 Message-id: <1649872@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 16 Dec 97 08:51:37 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Junkers floors To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 860 I read an article in Fine Homebuilding recently on wood floors. One flooring type shown was a floating floor, clipped together on the bottom with metal clips. It seemed to be a method readily amenable to removal and re-use at some future date. Has anyone used these products (one is Junkers) and do they install easily, perform well (no squeaks?), and would they be easy to dissassemble and re-install? Thanks Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 16 09:03:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA29011 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:03:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA22436 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:02:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24603; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:58:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:54:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24203 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24199; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA132944; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:55:32 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 06:55:32 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Wynn Solomon Cc: "Carol M." , Mark Blessing , Strawbale , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Lithium Bromide In-Reply-To: <34968004.CB3FAC57@virginia.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 861 Further to the note of below, if LB is environmentally-sound, where can I get some for experimental purposes? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Wynn Solomon wrote: > > Carol M. wrote: > > Do I ever understand the humidity problem!!! If you find an >answer to this one, please post it. Seems reasonable that there >is a way to control it but I don't have a clue where to start looking >for it. > > There are solids and liquids which are 'thirsty', will soak up moisture > from the air [e.g. lithium bromide]. Then by exposing the saturated > material to sunlight and ambient air the moisture can be driven off to > recharge it for another cycle. The process of absorbing water generates > heat, so that has to be dissipated before the air is returned to the > living space. The system doesn't lend itself well to 'passive' > techniques, but is actively being developed as an alternative to > conventional compression based A/C. When solar energy is used to > recharge the material significant savings of energy are possible [only > so-called 'parasitic' energy for blowers, pumps, etc. is necessary]. > > Wynn > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 16 11:18:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA08796 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:18:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA25350 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29544; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:06:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28815 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:05:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28807 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:05:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.162.253.56] (d36.best1.net [205.162.253.56]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA03241 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:10:08 -0800 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:10:18 -0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Ultra-low electricity consumption dwelling Europe Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 862 >freezer compartments use more energy than the fridge sections. So it seems >that the energy savings here are due primarily to lifestyle decisions (which >I'm not discounting!) but they may be somewhat akin to what was common in the >US during the passive solar boom, wherein people would report very low energy >use figures, and I would discover by visiting that they kept their home at >60F! All we have are life style choices. Withoout changing lifestyles, we are merely mitigating the effects of our profligate consumer choices. Just because something is mitigatable, does not mean it should be. Sfter all, what is the embodied energy, or operating energy, of a sweater? Steve McGrath McGrath Associates 665 Buchon St., San Luis Obispo, CA 93401 Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 16 12:11:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA11512 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA09811 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:11:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02044; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:03:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:59:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01692 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:59:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01688 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 11:59:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov (mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.26]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA32669 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:03:53 -0500 Received: by mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD0A1A.AD67A440@mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov>; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:03:53 -0500 Message-ID: From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: GBlist: conserving water w/ reverse osmosis Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:03:50 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 863 dear green group, i am looking for a reverse osmosis water filter that doesn't waste water. has anyone found one or is this an oxymoron? i prefer under-counter and reasonably affordable too. any suggestions? olivia james james3@niehs.nih.gov ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 16 13:00:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA13643 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:00:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA24708 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:59:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04494; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:54:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:50:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04116 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:50:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04108 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:50:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dial-7-MAX-BTVT-04.ramp.together.net [208.5.164.7]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA13180; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:54:34 -0500 Message-ID: <3496C055.12BD@together.net> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:54:29 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Lithium Bromide References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 864 Jorg: Lithium bromide is commonly used in steam absorption chillers. It should be availble from refrigeration vendors. Several years ago I designed a new chiller plant which included demolition of two lithium bromide chillers. The mechanical contractor dumped the lithium bromide down the storm drain, and got into trouble with the environmental authorities in Vermont. I was told, through third hand information, that lithium bromide has mild toxicity. The information I had was indirect, and therefore not reliable. Tom Anderson Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > Further to the note of below, if LB is environmentally-sound, where can I > get some for experimental purposes? > _________________________________________________________ > Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > _____________________________________________________ > > On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Wynn Solomon wrote: > > > > > Carol M. wrote: > > > Do I ever understand the humidity problem!!! If you find an >answer to this one, please post it. Seems reasonable that there >is a way to control it but I don't have a clue where to start looking >for it. > > > > There are solids and liquids which are 'thirsty', will soak up moisture > > from the air [e.g. lithium bromide]. Then by exposing the saturated > > material to sunlight and ambient air the moisture can be driven off to > > recharge it for another cycle. The process of absorbing water generates > > heat, so that has to be dissipated before the air is returned to the > > living space. The system doesn't lend itself well to 'passive' > > techniques, but is actively being developed as an alternative to > > conventional compression based A/C. When solar energy is used to > > recharge the material significant savings of energy are possible [only > > so-called 'parasitic' energy for blowers, pumps, etc. is necessary]. > > > > Wynn > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 16 14:44:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA17223 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:44:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA27012 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:44:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10129; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:39:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:35:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09845 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:35:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09841 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:35:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov (mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.26]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA09442 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:39:47 -0500 Received: by mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD0A30.74B7C330@mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov>; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:39:46 -0500 Message-ID: From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: GBlist: RO filter & water conservation Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:39:43 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 865 follow-up question to those who have a good quality water filter AND have tried to reduce water consumption... what are you using?? how do you do it? olivia james james3@niehs.nih.gov ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 16 16:52:14 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA22602 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:52:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA10293 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:51:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15103; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:47:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:42:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA14794 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin52.mail.aol.com (mrin52.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.162]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14790 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:42:43 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin52.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA22457; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:46:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 16:46:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971216164642_1612759862@mrin52> To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@valley.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Junkers floors Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 866 Hi Marc, I spec'd the Junkers clip system for a maple floor for a loft in New York City in 1985. It's still squeakless. Nice bounce to it too, like a gym floor. This one was over existing concrete. The impecccable German craftsman who installed it thought it was the best. Rob Harrison Seattle ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 16 20:56:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA00830 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:56:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA15861 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA24097; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:51:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:47:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA23618 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:47:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA23614 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:47:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.22] (blf22.acadia.net [205.217.217.22]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA21994 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:51:40 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 20:49:52 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Junkers floors Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 867 >I read an article in Fine Homebuilding recently on wood floors. One flooring >type shown was a floating floor, clipped together on the bottom with metal >clips. It seemed to be a method readily amenable to removal and re-use at some >future date. Has anyone used these products (one is Junkers) and do they >install easily, perform well (no squeaks?), and would they be easy to >dissassemble and re-install? > >Thanks > >Marc Rosenbaum Marc and others, We have used the Junkers floor system and found it to be easily installed, non-squeaking, easy to diassamble and reinstall, an excellent system for installing hardwood flooring over radiant in-floor heating, and very expensive - that doesn't mean that it isn't a good value, just that it has a high first cost. - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 17 00:06:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA05961 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:06:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA02711 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:05:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA00093; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:01:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:57:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA29818 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:57:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.170]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA29814 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:57:02 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 23:49:49 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Structural stress skin panels Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 868 My fellow green builders: In response to Daniel Arons and others who might push the envelope of new technology without perhaps thoroughly exploring old technology and the reasons that many practical traditions have evolved in our crafts. Perhaps one reasonable premise of green building might be to really understand traditional building first, before being so presumtous as to advocate change. I say this having been an eager pioneer of several new technologies in the field that have cost my clients and my company countless dollars and endless aggravation unnecessarily. Daniel, please don't misunderstand my last message on this topic. It is actually often easier to build dormers and other complex structures with panels than with sticks. What is often hard is to keep them dry over time, no matter what the they are built out of. It seems hard for many carpenters to take the time to learn proper flashing techniques, understand how to use caulks and sealants effectively, etc. It's been one of my biggest and toughest training issues as a builder. Worse than carpenters are homeowners who rarely seem to maintain anything much over eight feet above ground level. Many homeowners seem to not understand that maintenance is one of those responsibilities that you take on when you buy a building. That's why vinyl siding is so popular: It's really cheap and easy to paper over problems and then ignore them. The worst problems in the field are often caused by design oriented architects who are creating overly complicated structures. These tend to be the designers most eager to turn to the latest wizbang technology to take care of their flagrant disregard of the traditions that have evolved to handle the ravages of weather, neglect and time. These same practitioners are often too proud or arrogant to consult with experienced craftsmen before plowing ahead with working drawings and specs into that unforgiving test called the real world. Frank Lloyd Wright is the perfect example. The most highly honored American Architect of all time didn't seem to care enough about his product or his customers to learn how to build a building that didn't leak. From my experience, most architectural schools are continuing to train very eloquent sculptors with similar disregard for tradition, the trades their work depends on and their clients aggravation and expense. We've all seen buildings with water problems that are the direct result of any of these three culprits. Easiest and least expensive to fix are generally carpenters or roofers mistakes, they tend to show up early. Harder to fix are the problems that result from years of neglect. Hardest and most expensive of all are those resulting from the lousy design of expensive buildings. I recently had three men spend almost three months and $37,000 of my clients money correcting problems of an unnecessarily complex glazing system consisting of only 27 pieces of glass that had leaked from the day it was installed fifteen years earlier. Previously three glazing companies and two consulting engineers had failed to be able to repair it due to it's extraordinary unnecessary complexity. My kids go to a school with a huge skylight that from the day it was installed thirty years ago, has leaked due to flagrant and obvious architectural design flaws, which the school has never had the money to correct. (Though they've replaced and refinished the gym floor that the water has ruined several times.) Anyone in the industry for any significant time has seem downspouts disconnected, splash blocks directing water into basements, leaf mulch growing seedlings in roof valleys, huge gobs of dry caulk pulling away from the surfaces they are supposed to seal and flashings that direct water into rather than out of buildings. My comments on structural panels come from countless stories like these, including several my company has been responsible for. My caution is based on field reality. Since most people interacting with buildings at any of these levels tend to assume they know what they are doing when in reality they very often don't have a clue, isn't it reassuring to know that your building won't collapse and kill someone due to leaks causing delamination of a structural panel in a critical location. Among the traditions that seem to allow old buildings to survive the test of time are two that are almost always present: Elegant simplicity and structural redundancy. Foam and osb are great when they are new and dry. Unfortunately it's not an ideal world. Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 17 10:34:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21825 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:34:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00653 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:33:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13996; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:28:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:23:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13530 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:23:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13522 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:22:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [173.25.97.129] (mecha173.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.25.173]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA27536; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:28:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:27:20 EST From: John Straube Reply-To: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #478 To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: FUnger@aol.com X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199712170700.CAA02385@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 869 Fred, Although a bit too strong for many peoples tastes, I have to say I was nodding my head in violent agreement with much of what you have said. I am not personally aware of problems with SIPs, but I see problems due to "visually and mentally" oriented architecture, wizbang gadgets, and technical fixes to non-technical problems everyday. The pragmatic art of architecture seems to be lost. I imagine that you will hear lots of indignant replies from architects and desingers. Of course, the architects that would be reading this list are likely to be of a much higher calibre. This does not change the fact that our school system turns out poor practical (although otherwise well eductaed) architects and narrow-minded (although technically competent) engineers. Maybe 10% of these graduates recover and become "good" at their jobs and these are the ones who are trying to learn by being part of this list. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 17 11:26:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA24133 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:26:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA14606 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:25:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17422; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:16:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16841 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:16:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16832 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [173.25.97.129] (mecha173.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.25.173]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA29628 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:21:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:20:33 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Cellulose as Air Barrier To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199712150700.CAA28534@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 870 Some discussion of late has been about cellulose as an air barrier. I still cant beleive this is considered, but ... A study was mentioned by Dr Gren Yuill (not Yuill Gren) at Penn State. Gren is a knowledgable man with integrity -- Owens Corning did not buy his opinion. (BTW He is an ex-pat Canadian like Joe Lstiburek). I was at Penn State last week and the results are also in Novemeber's issue of EDU. The results of more than 100 blower door tests on the same house, with fireglass batt, with dense packed cellulose, with nothing, showed that the drywall, as expected, contributed 77% to the airtightness, the siding contributed 12% and the stud space insulation 11%. The difference between paper-faced batts and cellulose was insignificant. There is no doubt that the permeabilty of wet-packed cellusose is much lower than batt insulation. But the airflow is through cracks and openings, not theough the body of the insulation. This is why I emphasize that continuity is the most important air barrier requirment and permeability is the least. If someone has more specific questions about the study, I can give them his e-mail. I'd rather not broadcast it publically until I ask him. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 17 12:48:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA26396 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:48:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA08809 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:47:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21700; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:43:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:38:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21185 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:38:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (bentnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.14.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21178 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:38:06 -0500 (EST) From: liverjx@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 85256570.0060EC99 ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:38:40 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <85256570.005F5A96.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:39:35 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Cellulose as Air Barrier Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 871 John, Thank you for the air barrier percentage breakdown according to individual wall component. If, as the study suggests, the sheathing/siding contributes only 12% to the overall air barrier, then the type of insulation in the stud cavity is even more critical. Since 88% of the air barrier is to be found on the inside of the sheathing/siding, then the wall insulation is exposed to 88% of the outside air. So you need to have a high performance insulation like cellulose that will inhibit air movement in the wall system, not specifically as an air barrier to keep outside air out of the heated building envelope, but as a high density material that will discourage convective air looping within the stud bays. As we all know, fiberglass does not stop air, and the resultant convective air looping can significantly degrade the overall R-value of the wall system. I think the clear advantages of cellulose over fiberglass have been missed amidst all this discussion about insulations as air barriers. John Livermore Program Coordinator Energy Crafted Homes Western Mass Electric Co. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 17 17:10:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA00882 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:10:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA07986 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:13:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28965; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:06:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:02:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA28629 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:01:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28621 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:01:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.139] (pm1a12.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.142]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA27253; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:06:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:06:09 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: GBlist: Opportunities in green construction Cc: icampbell@tcco.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 872 Ian Campbell, who manages environmental programs for the country's largest construction company--Turner Construction--just asked me if I knew any people who might be interested in managing large green building projects Turner is taking on. He specifically mentioned three projects: in Texas, northern California, and the Pacific Northwest, all in the range of 150,000 to 200,000 square feet (one is a campus building, another a high-tech company office building). He described these as leading-edge green projects, which I expect is the case--Turner has been one of the most environmentally progressive construction firms, largely due to Ian's work. The company wants to hire permanent, full-time construction managers and project engineers with extensive experience in commercial building. Ian sounded upbeat, indicating that interest in green building is really picking up! Anyone who is interested should respond off-line to Ian Campbell (icampbell@tcco.com). Happy holidays! -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 17 17:23:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA02331 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:23:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA04279 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:22:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01508; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:17:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:13:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA01222 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:13:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.169]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01218 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:13:12 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <3cd28396.34984d98@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:09:24 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Fwd: Re: GBlist: Structural stress skin panels Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_882396566_boundary" Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 873 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_882396566_boundary Content-ID: <0_882396566@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In a message dated 12/17/97 4:46:38 PM, obrien@hevanet.com wrote: <>obrien@hevanet.com --part0_882396566_boundary Content-ID: <0_882396566@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay09.mail.aol.com (relay09.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.9]) by air09.mail.aol.com (v37.2) with SMTP; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:46:38 -0500 Received: from hevanet.com (hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by relay09.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id LAA02512 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:24:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [198.5.254.156] (ke-ppp06.hevanet.com [198.5.254.156]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00346 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:24:42 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: obrien@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 08:38:14 -0800 To: F Unger From: "Michael O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Structural stress skin panels Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi, Fred-- You are making valid points about design and workmanship (the opposite of "crapsmanship"). Here's my question: why do your cautions apply differently to SIPs than to traditional framing? It seems like you are saying any system is vulnerable to bad design, installation errors and lack of maintenance. Having had my own share of disasters early on in my youthful enthusiasms, I am also much more cautious about new products and systems. But what I see in SIPs and some of the foam block systems is that they are backed by lots of materials research and testing and field experience. They look like sound options. I have seen and heard of many major framing failures, including a trussed roof collapse a few weeks ago. I don't have the impression that they are bulletproof. I would argue that the main reason framed buildings hold up as well as they do, is that they are grossly overbuilt and redundant. It's my personal opinion that most framing as I see it here in Oregon is wasteful to the point that calling it "forest abuse" would not be an exaggeration. And I don't see the wasteful framers making any efforts to shape up, either. So part of the appeal of the other systems to me is to sidestep the framers' bad habits and ignorance. If you were to write your book of good practice for framed buildings, I suspect it would be long and detailed (there's an entire shelf of books on framing at our local construction bookstore). Do you think the book of good practice for SIPs or blocks would be any longer or more complex? Best, Mike >My fellow green builders: > >In response to Daniel Arons and others who might push the envelope of new >technology without perhaps thoroughly exploring old technology and the reasons >that many practical traditions have evolved in our crafts. > >Perhaps one reasonable premise of green building might be to really understand >traditional building first, before being so presumtous as to advocate change. >I say this having been an eager pioneer of several new technologies in the >field that have cost my clients and my company countless dollars and endless >aggravation unnecessarily. > >Daniel, please don't misunderstand my last message on this topic. It is >actually often easier to build dormers and other complex structures with >panels than with sticks. What is often hard is to keep them dry over time, no >matter what the they are built out of. > >It seems hard for many carpenters to take the time to learn proper flashing >techniques, understand how to use caulks and sealants effectively, etc. It's >been one of my biggest and toughest training issues as a builder. > >Worse than carpenters are homeowners who rarely seem to maintain anything much >over eight feet above ground level. Many homeowners seem to not understand >that maintenance is one of those responsibilities that you take on when you >buy a building. That's why vinyl siding is so popular: It's really cheap and >easy to paper over problems and then ignore them. > >The worst problems in the field are often caused by design oriented architects >who are creating overly complicated structures. These tend to be the designers >most eager to turn to the latest wizbang technology to take care of their >flagrant disregard of the traditions that have evolved to handle the ravages >of weather, neglect and time. These same practitioners are often too proud or >arrogant to consult with experienced craftsmen before plowing ahead with >working drawings and specs into that unforgiving test called the real world. >Frank Lloyd Wright is the perfect example. The most highly honored American >Architect of all time didn't seem to care enough about his product or his >customers to learn how to build a building that didn't leak. From my >experience, most architectural schools are continuing to train very eloquent >sculptors with similar disregard for tradition, the trades their work depends >on and their clients aggravation and expense. > >We've all seen buildings with water problems that are the direct result of any >of these three culprits. Easiest and least expensive to fix are generally >carpenters or roofers mistakes, they tend to show up early. Harder to fix are >the problems that result from years of neglect. Hardest and most expensive of >all are those resulting from the lousy design of expensive buildings. > >I recently had three men spend almost three months and $37,000 of my clients >money correcting problems of an unnecessarily complex glazing system >consisting of only 27 pieces of glass that had leaked from the day it was >installed fifteen years earlier. Previously three glazing companies and two >consulting engineers had failed to be able to repair it due to it's >extraordinary unnecessary complexity. My kids go to a school with a huge >skylight that from the day it was installed thirty years ago, has leaked due >to flagrant and obvious architectural design flaws, which the school has never >had the money to correct. (Though they've replaced and refinished the gym >floor that the water has ruined several times.) > >Anyone in the industry for any significant time has seem downspouts >disconnected, splash blocks directing water into basements, leaf mulch growing >seedlings in roof valleys, huge gobs of dry caulk pulling away from the >surfaces they are supposed to seal and flashings that direct water into rather >than out of buildings. > >My comments on structural panels come from countless stories like these, >including several my company has been responsible for. My caution is based on >field reality. Since most people interacting with buildings at any of these >levels tend to assume they know what they are doing when in reality they very >often don't have a clue, isn't it reassuring to know that your building won't >collapse and kill someone due to leaks causing delamination of a structural >panel in a critical location. > >Among the traditions that seem to allow old buildings to survive the test of >time are two that are almost always present: Elegant simplicity and structural >redundancy. Foam and osb are great when they are new and dry. Unfortunately >it's not an ideal world. > >Fred Unger >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ --part0_882396566_boundary-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 17 17:55:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA03806 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:55:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA12432 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:54:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA02883; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:49:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:46:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA02666 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:46:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA02662 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:46:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.60 (pm1-28.hoosier.net [206.106.67.60]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA20196 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:50:31 -0500 Message-ID: <3498566C.D70@bloomington.in.us> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:47:09 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Discussion Subject: GBlist: carpet toxicity Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 874 There's a good recent article about carpet toxicity in the Journal of Nutritional & Environmental Medicine (1997) 7, 177-185. It contains some basic info, case studies, and symptoms reported. You should be able to find it in a medical library. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 17 17:59:56 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA03857 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:59:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA13461 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:59:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03210; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:54:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:50:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA02956 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:50:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA02949 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:50:27 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <240310b3.34985769@aol.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:51:19 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Structural Panels Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 875 Mike, I am trying to keep this discussion going hoping you guys can convince me that panels are indeed a valid way to build a long lasting sustainable structure. After having seen panels exposed to water for relatively short times become totally disintegrated and absolutely crawling with termites, I am hesitant to use them for the only structural element of a building for all the reasons that I outlined. All the books we could read or write won't change reality in the field much. I am not opposed to using a little extra second growth Spruce lumber to create structural redundancy if it means our buildings will last longer and be safer. Here in New England we have something like 85% young forest cover in a region that was over 80% clear farm land at the turn of the century. Recognizing that makes it easier to accept that trees grow back pretty quickly. Like the rest of you, I am opposed to cutting old growth forest for studs and plywood. I am not however against building with wood. But I would love if you can convince me that my caution is foolish. I have never seen an easier, more energy efficient way to build than SIP's. But I am getting pretty skeptical as I get older. Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 17 19:48:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA06955 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:48:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA25233 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:47:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA07906; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:39:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA07626 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:39:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07622 for ; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 19:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from canada.ampsc.com (canada.ampsc.com [207.102.161.158]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA08006; Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:46:51 -0800 Message-ID: <34987118.69E3@ampsc.com> Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:40:57 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Bower CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: carpet toxicity References: <3498566C.D70@bloomington.in.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 876 John Bower wrote: > > There's a good recent article about carpet toxicity in the Journal of > Nutritional & Environmental Medicine (1997) 7, 177-185. It contains some > basic info, case studies, and symptoms reported. You should be able to > find it in a medical library. > -- > John Bower, The Healthy House Institute > http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us > 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 > Phone/fax 812-332-5073 If you are interested in toxicity emissions from indoor environments, including carpets, upholstery, etc., I suggest you log on to the Georgia State University and Technology Institute, and check out the reported findings of microbial emissions from mold and fungus growths, which are quite similar to the voc emissions previously found from carpets, etc. Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 18 10:38:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00415 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:38:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA08707 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26460; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:32:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:27:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25957 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:27:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25953 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:27:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA27106 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:31:04 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 00054E84; Thu, 18 Dec 97 09:11:26 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 09:20:44 -0600 Message-ID: <00054E84.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #479 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="RFC822 message headers" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Content-Disposition: inline; filename="RFC822 message headers" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 877 Fred: In this discussion of SIP's, there's an important issue that has not been raised: the phenomenon of "creep". It has been demonstrated that, under conditions of loading and cycling relative humidity, OSB will undergo substantially more creep(ie, will PERMANENTLY deflect) than solid wood or plywood. So, if OSB is your only structural material, what is your house going to look like in 20-50 years? Those perfectly straight walls may develop an "interesting" shape over the years! Structural redundancy is sometimes a good idea.(ps: I have a bibliography of this research, if anyone cares to read about it in more detail) - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com _________________________________________________ ___ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:51:19 EST From: F Unger Subject: GBlist: Structural Panels Mike, I am trying to keep this discussion going hoping you guys can convince me that panels are indeed a valid way to build a long lasting sustainable structure. After having seen panels exposed to water for relatively short times become totally disintegrated and absolutely crawling with termites, I am hesitant to use them for the only structural element of a building for all the reasons that I outlined. All the books we could read or write won't change reality in the field much. I am not opposed to using a little extra second growth Spruce lumber to create structural redundancy if it means our buildings will last longer and be safer. Here in New England we have something like 85% young forest cover in a region that was over 80% clear farm land at the turn of the century. Recognizing that makes it easier to accept that trees grow back pretty quickly. Like the rest of you, I am opposed to cutting old growth forest for studs and plywood. I am not however against building with wood. But I would love if you can convince me that my caution is foolish. I have never seen an easier, more energy efficient way to build than SIP's. But I am getting pretty skeptical as I get older. Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 18 10:41:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00475 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:41:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA09754 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:40:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26966; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:35:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:31:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26225 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:31:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26205; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:30:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA113686; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:33:56 -0700 Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:33:55 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver , Barbara Dietz-Ballantyne , Richard Kadulski Subject: GBlist: sustainable housing Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 878 Barbara, Richard et al: Is there an association or group that is promoting the above in British Columbia? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 18 10:43:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00496 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:43:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA10568 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:42:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27274; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:37:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:33:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26509 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:33:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26501 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:33:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA162246; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:36:36 -0700 Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:36:36 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: white cluster LEDS Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 879 Does anyone know of a manufacturer of "white" LEDS, especially if they are combined in a cluster for greater lumens? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 18 10:43:20 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00501 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:43:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA10605 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:42:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27286; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:38:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:33:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26587 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:33:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from surya.uwaterloo.ca (root@surya.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.46.42]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26576 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:33:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [172.25.97.129] (mecha172.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.25.172]) by surya.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA23835 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:37:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:36:30 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Cellulose as Air Barrier To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199712180700.CAA17078@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 880 John Livermore wrote: > Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:39:35 -0500 > From: liverjx@NU.COM > Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Cellulose as Air Barrier > Thank you for the air barrier percentage breakdown according to individual > wall component. If, as the study suggests, the sheathing/siding > contributes only 12% to the overall air barrier, then the type of > insulation in the stud cavity is even more critical. Since 88% of the air > barrier is to be found on the inside of the sheathing/siding, then the wall > insulation is exposed to 88% of the outside air. WHAT? This is not the case at all! We are talking about airflow through the enclosure, not airflow within the enclosure when we discuss air barrier. The 77% figure means 77% of the pressure drop across the enclosure was across the drywall. The flow across all element must be the same (or we weould have air accumulating in one spot!). >So you need to have a > high performance insulation like cellulose that will inhibit air movement > in the wall system, not specifically as an air barrier to keep outside air > out of the heated building envelope, but as a high density material that > will discourage convective air looping within the stud bays. Now you are discussing air flow within the enclosure. This flow is gnerated by wind pressure effects (i.e., wind washing) and temperature differences within spaces like stud spaces (i.e., convective or stack effect). Cellulose can control these types of flow better than fibreglass, but not sufficiently for modern enclosures. Wind washing is best dealt with by applying an airtight cladding (e.g. stucco) or a house wrap. Convective effects can be controlled by fibreglass IF it is properly installed. Of ocurse, cellulose can also be improperly installed. Now do a 100 house study of cellulose and fibreglass in a region and tell me which is more likely to be properly installed. >As we all > know, fiberglass does not stop air, As we all know, neither does cellulose >and the resultant convective air > looping can significantly degrade the overall R-value of the wall system. Wait a minute. Fibreglass only insulates because it stops airflow. Glass sure isnt an insulator. All the small pockets of still air create the insulating effect. Convective flows within normal density mineral fibre batts do not occur WITHIN the batt. This is how the batts are designed. The convective loops occur AROUND the batt, which is why they are made oversized (to compress tight against surfaces) and why some have paper facings stpaled to the studs. > I think the clear advantages of cellulose over fiberglass have been missed > amidst all this discussion about insulations as air barriers. There may be benefits of cellulose environmentally, and it may be easier to install consisitently. I cannot render a clear judgement on this. No one has pointed out a clear technical advantage yet, and no properly conducted studies are around to support the superiority of installation. If you beleive cellulose is superior, this is the way to show it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 18 13:40:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06065 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:40:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA18306 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:39:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04460; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:31:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:24:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03893 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:24:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (bentnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.14.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03888 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:24:32 -0500 (EST) From: liverjx@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 85256571.006530D5 ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:25:16 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <85256571.005A259E.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 13:26:43 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Cellulose as Air Barrier Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 881 My main point here is that I think this discussion about insulations as air barriers is a bit misguided, since neither fiberglass nor cellulose were ever intended, to my knowledge, to function as air barriers. The respective benefits of each material lie in their other qualities, most particularly their ability to stop air movement within the stud cavity. John Straube wrote: > Fibreglass only insulates because it stops airflow. All insulative materials insulate because they inhibit air movement within the space that they occupy. The vital question is how effective are they at stopping that air movement. There was a study done several years ago (reported in Energy Design Update) finding that convective air looping was occurring within fiberglass batts installed in attics, thereby degrading the rated R-value of the insulation. Cellulose insulated attics were found to have much less convective looping. Although I know of no similar studies on this phenomenon in fiberglass batt insulated walls, I think it is not unreasonable to postulate that convective looping may also be an issue within the wall batt material, perhaps exacerbated by gaps between the material and the surfaces of the stud cavity. If anyone knows of any studies done in this area please let us know. Incidently, in my field experience blower door testing Energy Crafted Homes in Western Massachusetts, the fiberglass batt insulated houses often have trouble passing our air tightness standards (1 sq.in. of leakage area per 100 sq.ft. of building shell area) whereas cellulose, spray foam, and stress skin panel homes routinely test at less than 0.5 square inches. John Livermore Energy Crafted Home Program Coordinator WMECO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 18 15:33:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA09689 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:33:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA04012 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:33:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09319; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:28:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:22:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA08942 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:22:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA08938 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:22:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.98] (pa-ppp13.hevanet.com [204.119.60.98]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20584 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:26:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00054E84.1762@us.teltech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:26:03 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #479 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 882 Hi, Patrick-- Could you please document the source for the statement that OSB is subject to "creep"? And could you then document the source for the statement that SIP panels could deform as a result of OSB creep? Thanks, Mike >Fred: > >In this discussion of SIP's, there's an important >issue that has not been raised: the phenomenon >of "creep". It has been demonstrated that, under >conditions of loading and cycling relative >humidity, OSB will undergo substantially more >creep(ie, will PERMANENTLY deflect) than solid >wood or plywood. So, if OSB is your only >structural material, what is your house going to >look like in 20-50 years? Those perfectly >straight walls may develop an "interesting" shape >over the years! Structural redundancy is >sometimes a good idea.(ps: I have a bibliography >of this research, if anyone cares to read about >it in more detail) > >- Patrick Pierquet >ppierquet@teltech.com > > > >_________________________________________________ >___ >Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:51:19 EST >From: F Unger >Subject: GBlist: Structural Panels > >Mike, > >I am trying to keep this discussion going hoping >you guys can convince me that > >panels are indeed a valid way to build a long >lasting sustainable structure. >After having seen panels exposed to water for >relatively short times become >totally disintegrated and absolutely crawling >with termites, I am hesitant to >use them for the only structural element of a >building for all the reasons >that I outlined. All the books we could read or >write won't change reality in >the field much. > >I am not opposed to using a little extra second >growth Spruce lumber to create >structural redundancy if it means our buildings >will last longer and be safer. >Here in New England we have something like 85% >young forest cover in a region >that was over 80% clear farm land at the turn of >the century. Recognizing that >makes it easier to accept that trees grow back >pretty quickly. Like the rest >of you, I am opposed to cutting old growth forest >for studs and plywood. I am >not however against building with wood. > >But I would love if you can convince me that my >caution is foolish. I have >never seen an easier, more energy efficient way >to build than SIP's. But I am >getting pretty skeptical as I get older. > > Fred Unger >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Earth Smart Program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 18 16:59:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA12033 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:59:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA11736 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:58:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11277; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:04:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:59:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10891 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:59:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin53.mail.aol.com (mrin53.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.163]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10886; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 15:59:32 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin53.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id QAA11419; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:02:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:02:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <971218160251_-2138388143@mrin53> To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org cc: strawbale@crest.org, BDB_Architect@mindlink.bc.ca, kadulski@cyberstore.ca Subject: Re: GBlist: sustainable housing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 883 Jorg, You might try contacting Bryan Harrison & Shelley Penner EcoDesign Resource Society POBox 3981, Main Post Office Vancouver, BC Canada V6B 3Z4 tel/fax 604.738-9334 In 1994-1995 I got a few issues of a really nice magazine EcoDesign published that thoughtfully covered green building, including sustainable housing. I visited their resource center--they had a fairly well-stocked library and collection of green materials. I haven't heard from them lately, but I may just have dropped off the mailing list. Rob Harrison Seattle a.k.a. Editor, _EcoBuilding Times_ --a publication of the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 18 17:55:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA13794 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:55:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA04064 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:55:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA15288; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:49:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:45:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15006 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:45:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15002 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:45:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.117] (pm1a23.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.153]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA10492 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:49:31 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <971218160251_-2138388143@mrin53> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 16:56:08 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: sustainable housing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 884 EcoDesign Society no longer appears to be active, but Shelley Penner still is. She can be reached by e-mail at: SynEco Collaborative Nadav At 4:02 PM -0500 12/18/97, RHDesign@aol.com wrote: >Jorg, > >You might try contacting > >Bryan Harrison & Shelley Penner >EcoDesign Resource Society >POBox 3981, Main Post Office >Vancouver, BC >Canada V6B 3Z4 >tel/fax 604.738-9334 > >In 1994-1995 I got a few issues of a really nice magazine EcoDesign published >that thoughtfully covered green building, including sustainable housing. I >visited their resource center--they had a fairly well-stocked library and >collection of green materials. I haven't heard from them lately, but I may >just have dropped off the mailing list. > >Rob Harrison >Seattle > >a.k.a. Editor, _EcoBuilding Times_ >--a publication of the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild-- >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 18 18:35:56 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA15324 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:35:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA20862 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:35:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16686; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:30:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:26:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA16367 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16362 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:26:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.36 (pm1-4.hoosier.net [206.106.67.36]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA16630 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:30:33 -0500 Message-ID: <3499B14C.2493@bloomington.in.us> Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 18:27:10 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Discussion Subject: GBlist: Re: carpet toxicity Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 885 You Wrote: John, could you also send out the title and authors of the article so those of us without access to a medical library can order it through interlibrary loan? Thanks...............Sara. Title: "Reactions to Carpet Emissions: A Case Series" Author: Julius H. Anderson, MD PhD Journal of Nutritional & Environmental Medicine (1997) Vol. 7 Pp. 177-185. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 18 23:33:50 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA22842 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:33:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA05467 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:33:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA23972; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:28:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:24:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23720 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:23:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23716 for ; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:23:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from frazer (ip53.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.53]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA11377; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:28:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19971219042447.0092e00c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:24:47 -0500 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , GreenBuilding Listserver From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: white cluster LEDS Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 886 At 08:36 AM 12/18/1997 -0700, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: >Does anyone know of a manufacturer of "white" LEDS, especially if they are >combined in a cluster for greater lumens? Try best, -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 19 00:31:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA24821 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:31:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA00181 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:26:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA26077; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:22:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:17:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA25716 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:17:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from m5.sprynet.com (m5.sprynet.com [165.121.1.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA25704; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:17:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (rvl-md11-04.ix.netcom.com [206.217.107.132]) by m5.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA17605; Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:22:07 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971219002125.006eca8c@m5.sprynet.com> X-Sender: bhoward2@m5.sprynet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 00:21:30 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org From: Bion Howard Subject: GBlist: SIP thermal performance data sought Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 887 Structural Insulated Panel (SIP) Performance Data Sought --------------------------------------------------------- I am looking for published (prefer peer reviewed) studies and data on thermal performance of SIPS, whole buildings with SIP walls, whole buildings with SIP walls and roof-ceilings, etc. The information available from ASHRAE, and other sources I have seen to date is pretty limited. All data received will be reviewed, and properly credited. Both steady state and dynamic results would be useful. Test data reported from guarded hot-box, or calibrated hot box apparatus would be of interest. Whole building studies, including monitored (long term instrumented, or STEM type assessments) or other residential energy performance assessments (REPA) are fine. HERS ratings of whole buildings might be considered, if complete information is made available. Theoretical calculations, computer studies, etc. are not really that useful. Purpose: We are conducting an LCA study of various wall and whole-shell systems for comparison with other approaches, and values in the literature. Eventual publication in ASHRAE, or ACEEE transactions is expected. Thanks in advance for leads on conducting this study. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact: Bion Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology bhoward2@sprynet.com Web: ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 19 09:01:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA06647 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:01:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA05613 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:00:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07271; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:55:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:51:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA06822 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:51:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06817; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:51:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22018; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:47:12 -0700 Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 06:47:11 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: sensfive Cc: Strawbale Listserver , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Re: sustainable architects (ecotects) In-Reply-To: <199712191208.XAA32634@www.acenet.com.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 888 Bill: Thanks for your update on the above. This is desperately needed in every country! Then each person/professional needs to lead a conserver lifestyle (within reason), both at home and at work. It should also be initiated by the national association. A similar association does exist in the US, but I am not sure how active or influential they are with the AIA. Architects (especially the national associations) should be leaders not followers. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, sensfive wrote: > > I don't know if this is relevant, or even wanted, but we have established > the Ecological Architects Association in Australia. We are a group of > architects and associated professionals committed (or maybe that we > should 'be committed'!!) to a sustainable future. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 19 09:36:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA07976 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:36:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA16385 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:35:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08536; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:30:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:26:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA08101 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:26:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08097 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:26:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.59]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 7937700 ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:30:54 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971219092745.0069c9fc@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 09:27:45 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #480 In-Reply-To: <199712190700.CAA28861@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 889 Try the following manufacturers taken from an earlier Green Buildings post: Ledtronics 310-534-1505 in California Dialight 908-223-9400 in New Jersey Hiyoshi 510-264-9150 in California Also a lighting firm in Philadelphia, E-Finity 610-688-6212, has given me some info on a product. The Eagle Night Owl is marketed as a retrofit for night lights in nursing homes. Unfortunately the literature I have does not list any information on the manufacturer. I just called E-Finity to get a sample sent to me for evaluation. >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:36:36 -0700 (MST) >From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" >Subject: GBlist: white cluster LEDS > >Does anyone know of a manufacturer of "white" LEDS, especially if they are >combined in a cluster for greater lumens? ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 19 11:26:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03235 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:26:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA00824 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12984; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:15:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12694 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:15:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from c2smtp.payette.com (c2smtp.payette.com [199.232.148.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12686 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 11:15:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from NetWare MHS (SMF70) by c2smtp.payette.com via Connect2-SMTP 4.01.b32G; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 08:50:16 -0500 Message-ID: <0ECBD83001000000@c2smtp.payette.com> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 8:50:08 -5000 From: Daniel Arons Organization: Payette Associates Inc. To: funger@aol.com (F Unger), greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Structural Panels MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.01.b32G MHS to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 890 Fred, I'm happy to keep this discussion going. I think that you should consider the location that these panels are being used. It may be that consideration of this factor may enlighten this discussion. Two examples of locations that SIPs may be acceptable: 1. In Vermont, on a 45 degree roof that has an airspace above it, and is protected by a _complete_ roof system. (slate on roofing felt and plywood over a 3 inch air space, then felt over plywood sheathed SIPs.) Note, this is an 8,000 degree day climate. 2. The south pole, where SIPs are now the norm for research and research support buildings. Very little moisture outside. Last time it rained? I dunno. Plenty of moisture inside, needs only to be controlled. Just a couple of things to consider. I would like to see what you think. Dan > Mike, > > I am trying to keep this discussion going hoping you guys can > convince me that panels are indeed a valid way to build a long > lasting sustainable structure. After having seen panels exposed to > water for relatively short times become totally disintegrated and > absolutely crawling with termites, I am hesitant to use them for the > only structural element of a building for all the reasons that I > outlined. All the books we could read or write won't change reality > in the field much. > > I am not opposed to using a little extra second growth Spruce lumber > to create structural redundancy if it means our buildings will last > longer and be safer. Here in New England we have something like 85% > young forest cover in a region that was over 80% clear farm land at > the turn of the century. Recognizing that makes it easier to accept > that trees grow back pretty quickly. Like the rest of you, I am > opposed to cutting old growth forest for studs and plywood. I am not > however against building with wood. > > But I would love if you can convince me that my caution is foolish. > I have never seen an easier, more energy efficient way to build than > SIP's. But I am getting pretty skeptical as I get older. > > Fred Unger > ____________________________________________________________________ > _ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to > greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ____________________________________________________________________ > _ > ********************** Daniel Arons Architect Payette Associates, Inc (617)342-8201 ext. 324 darons@payette.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 19 19:27:49 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01324 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 19:27:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA22315 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:50:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA29576; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:45:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:41:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA29331 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:41:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from sparticus.eurekanet.com (root@sparticus.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA29327 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:41:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (port-01-20.athens.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.120]) by sparticus.eurekanet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA07569; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 19:55:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712200055.TAA07569@sparticus.eurekanet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Catherine M. Muller" Organization: National Center for Appropriate Technology To: liverjx@nu.com, John Straube Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 22:32:17 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Cellulose as Air Barrier Reply-to: cmuller@ncat.org CC: greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <85256571.005A259E.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 891 liverjx@nu.com wrote: > There was a study done several years ago >(reported in Energy Design Update) finding that convective air >looping was occurring within fiberglass batts installed in attics, >thereby degrading the rated R-value of the insulation. Cellulose > insulated attics were found to have much less convective looping. > Although I know of no similar studies on this phenomenon in > fiberglass batt insulated walls, I think it is not unreasonable to > postulate that convective looping may also be an issue within the > wall batt material, perhaps exacerbated by gaps between the > material and the surfaces of the stud cavity. If anyone knows of any > studies done in this area please let us know. The study cited in the EDU article (June 1992) dealt with convective looping in loose-blown fiberglass, not batts. It specifically said that a study done with batts had not shown this phenomenon. The loss of R-value began when temperatures in the attic went below 30 degrees F. "Below that point, the heat loss increased geometrically with temperature difference...". At 10 degree attic temperature, the effective R-value was decreased by over 50%. Obviously, the significance of this varies depending on how often the attic reaches these temperatures. That being said, I'll weigh in with my personal experiences with fiberglass and cellulose, once again, leaving out the "air barrier" question. In my own old farmhouse, the one room that was insulated with fiberglass batts (plaster was torn out due to a past fire, so we put in batts) was physically the coldest in the house and scanned very grey and black with infrared. The remainder of the house was blown with dense-pack cellulose and scanned beautifully. I've seen similar differences in newly constructed houses, even when housewrap was used, although not quite as dramatic, usually. I've done lots of blower door tests in houses that were weatherized with cellulose and seen significant decreases in air leakage rates. I've seen *lots* of poorly installed fiberglass in new construction and weatherization. That, in combination with the infrared scans certainly makes me lean toward cellulose when chosing an insulation. BTW, there is a quantified study of the effects of convective loops on FG - see Wolf, S., Solvason, K.R., and Wilson, A.G. Convective Air Flow Effects with Mineral Wool Insulation in Wood Frame Walls, ASHRAE Transactions Vol. 72, Part II, 1966. Another study that seems to bear on this discussion is cited in the same bibliography - Solvason, K.R. and Schuyler, G.D., Effectiveness of Wall Insulation, ASTM Special Technical Publication 789, 1983. NRCC 22429. Unfortunately, I don't have copies of either study. If anyone out there does, and could provide a synopsis, I'd be very interested in hearing it. CM Catherine M. Muller Project Coordinator, Multi-family Services National Center for Appropriate Technology 16 Spring Street, Glouster, Ohio 45732 cmuller@ncat.org 614/767-9000 (phone); 614/767-9033 (fax) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 19 23:24:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA08022 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA07724 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:24:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09411; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:19:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:15:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA09209 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09204 for ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:15:08 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <5108836b.349b46e6@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 23:17:38 EST To: darons@payette.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Structural Panels Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 892 Dan, In response to your message below, I would think that in many applications SIP's are the perfect solution. They are an evolution of walk in cooler technology and still would seem ideal for that application, as well as for the south pole application you mentioned. I sure wouldn't want to be out doing a standard stick framed building that I do in mild coastal New England at the South Pole in the winter. I would imagine anyone venturing to the South Pole can replace buildings pretty regularly and is assuming far more immediate risks than those potentially posed by long term moisture degradation of structural panels. The issue of panel creep that Patrick Pierquet mentioned in his recent post may raise interesting questions on your Vermont roof. Other than that concern and others we may not yet be aware of, like potential chemical transmutations of the foam itself over time, a simple gable roof with the kind of money you would be pouring into that roof system would likely be done right by very professional roofers and remain dry. Folks that would put up a slate roof with that kind of engineering behind it don't generally go for the low bid, at least not around here. This list is great in that it seems to have conversations at every level happening simultaneously, from the detailed and immediate, how do I find an answer to my short term question, to the broader long range questions that might help guide the direction of our life work. Perhaps I approached the question of SIP's with too broad a brush. My intent is to explore if such technology is appropriate for my own work and that of many others on this list: normal competitive residential construction in the types of habitats that most folks with heating climate concerns might live in. The south pole, while interesting, may not provide a generally good test case for a typical American middle class home. Your Vermont case is also probably a little out of the league that one might call typical. Let's keep talking. Most of us on this list likely still have a enough idealism and stubbornness in us to keep experimenting with promising new technology. It's great having this kind of resource to help figure out which are the most fruitful avenues to explore. Fred Unger "I'm happy to keep this discussion going. I think that you should consider the location that these panels are being used. It may be that consideration of this factor may enlighten this discussion. Two examples of locations that SIPs may be acceptable: 1. In Vermont, on a 45 degree roof that has an airspace above it, and is protected by a _complete_ roof system. (slate on roofing felt and plywood over a 3 inch air space, then felt over plywood sheathed SIPs.) Note, this is an 8,000 degree day climate. 2. The south pole, where SIPs are now the norm for research and research support buildings. Very little moisture outside. Last time it rained? I dunno. Plenty of moisture inside, needs only to be controlled. Just a couple of things to consider. I would like to see what you think. Dan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 20 12:15:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA28175 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:15:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA03483 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:14:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23146; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:08:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:03:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22879 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:03:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22875 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:03:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA01314 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 09:08:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 20 Dec 1997 09:06:56 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: SIPs, SUBS, ATTIC HEAT To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA22876 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 893 This is my first post to this site. I have been very impressed with the courtesy and straight-forwardness of virtually all. One of the reasons I joined was to ask about experiences with SIPs. I gather from some recent posts that SIPs are frowned on by many here. Is the problem foam--even cleaned up foam--as opposed to, say, straw, or other ÒnaturalÓ products? And is OSB not well thought of, for some reason? One of the members of an architecture/art site I visit said, simply: ÒSIPs are the kiss of death.Ó (These are not, for the most part, people who discuss the environment, so I asked what the problem was with SIPs; there was a mumble about a ÒdelaminationÓ someone Òheard about,Ó but nothing really substantive.) I agree with those who have said that SIPs LOOK extraordinarily good, but then, even though theyÕve been around for many, many years, I only recently found out about them. A builder who uses SIPs told me that some of the styrene panels had failed because they were glued to the OSB, but that with polyurethane panels, the foam was shot between the OSB and became inseparable. But Elena Westbrook told me that leftover chunks of polystyrene panels have sat around her yard for two years without delaminating. SheÕs very happy with her SIPs home, which costs very little to heat and cool. A couple of unrelated questions. Does anyone know of a site that helps you estimate building costs? (PSF amounts for all the subs, like drywall, electric, plumbing, etc?) And, perhaps this is dumb, but would I be wasting my time trying to devise a system to pump the heated air in my attic down into the house during the winter, to supplement the furnace? The person who asked about tithing to a good cause: what about Jimmy CarterÕs Habitat for Humanity. I understand his homes are becoming more and more green, even aside from being a an intelligent, humane approach to affordable housing. Jean Northern California ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 20 18:57:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA10242 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 18:57:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA17815 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 18:56:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02415; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 18:48:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Dec 1997 18:44:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02166 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 18:44:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02162 for ; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 18:44:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16797; Sat, 20 Dec 1997 18:49:27 GMT (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 18:48:30 EST From: John Straube Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Cellulose as Air Barrier To: "Catherine M. Muller" cc: liverjx@nu.com, greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199712200055.TAA07569@sparticus.eurekanet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 894 On Fri, 19 Dec 1997, Catherine M. Muller wrote: > The study cited in the EDU article (June 1992) dealt with > convective looping in loose-blown fiberglass, not batts. It Tnaks for the clarification > > That being said, I'll weigh in with my personal experiences with > fiberglass and cellulose, once again, leaving out the "air barrier" ......... > and weatherization. That, in combination with the infrared scans > certainly makes me lean toward cellulose when chosing an insulation. These are all god points, and, as I said, it would seem the differences between rockwool, cellulose, and fibreglass are not really technically based, but related to the percentage of poor instaltion, etc. I have heard enough people express the same sentiments and anecdotal evidence as yourself to beleive that wet-blown cellulose may be more likely to be installed properly, than batts. > BTW, there is a quantified study of the effects of convective loops > on FG - see Wolf, S., Solvason, K.R., and Wilson, A.G. Convective Air > Flow Effects with Mineral Wool Insulation in Wood Frame Walls, ASHRAE > Transactions Vol. 72, Part II, 1966. Another study that seems > to bear on this discussion is cited in the same bibliography - > Solvason, K.R. and Schuyler, G.D., Effectiveness of Wall Insulation, > ASTM Special Technical Publication 789, 1983. NRCC 22429. > Unfortunately, I don't have copies of either study. If anyone out > there does, and could provide a synopsis, I'd be very interested in > hearing it. Those studies, while still technically valid, are a bit out of date wrt the type of assemblies tested (many had 2-1/2" batts in 3-1/2" stud spaces. I use some of the results from these and the earlier work by Handegord and Hutcheon to demonstate the principles, however, becuase the results are so strong. More recent NRC work an be found in the J. of Thermal Insul and Bldg. Env, Vol 16, Apr 1993, by Brown, Bomberg and the boys at NRCC/IRC. Article is entitled "Measured Thermal Resistance of Frame Walls with Defects in the Installation of Mineral Fibre Insulation". Similiar comments as Catherine made about the effect of very cold temps. They showed that the higher density ROXUL batts were significantly less sensitive to installtion that fireglass. Hens (from Belgium) has been working on this for some time, and a good English paper, by Lecompte, "Influence of Natural Convection in an Insulated Cavity on the Thermal Performance of a Wall" in ASTM STP 1030, summarizes extensive laboratory tests and computer modeling. This added to the body of knowledge by examning rigid foam and convective looping, and showed that foam boards were even more susceptible because they are too rigid to allow them to form around surfaces. Ojanen, Kohonen and other workers from VTT (Finland) have been looking at convective looping and wind washing for a while -- check out the their papers in the 1989 Thermal IV conference, and the latest Thermal VI in 1995. All of this work confirms the expectations of theory. If one leaves an airspace on BOTH sides of an insulating layer, and these two spaces become CONNECTED at at least TWO locations, convective looping will reduce the insulating value. Everybody of aware of it, and as Ojanen et al and Janseens in a soon to be published PhD will show, it can be predicted and calculated. The insulation companies know all this too, and have for a long time. Hence friction fit batts that fill the studspace are recommended. These work if properly installed. Now, the remainng questions are: how often are they not installed properly, how badly are the actually installed. Given the answers to these questions (which must be answered through field studies), we can have the information to assess the impact on heat flow. Before everyone jumps on the bandwagon and says cellulose is always installed properly, I know this not to be the case. I have seen settlement/shrinkage cracks, celullose runing out of holes into wall cavities after drying, etc. So, cellulose is also installtion sensitive, albeit likely less sensitive than batts, IMO. RE: the impact of the temperature drop on convective looping. Convective looping is directly related to the temperature drop, so is mre important in very cold climates (like Anchorage and Winnipeg) OR in very thick batts. To minimize this effect, batts in 2x4 studpsaces with insulating sheathing, can be shown to greatly reduce convective looping losses becuase we have dropped the Delta T across each layer. Yet another reason to prefer this construction over 2x6. Cheers, and Happy Holidays all! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 21 21:33:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA08751 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:33:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA15671 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:32:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08142; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:28:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:21:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07873 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from bendnet.com (tumalo.bendnet.com [199.2.205.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07869 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 21:21:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from Bob.bendnet.com (b74.bendnet.com [206.163.37.84]) by bendnet.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/bendnet-MX) with SMTP id SAA28428 for ; Sun, 21 Dec 1997 18:24:37 -0800 (PST) From: "Bob Foster" To: Subject: GBlist: InsulSafe III, The Blow-In-Blanket System. Was: Cellulose as Air Barrier Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 18:24:55 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd0e80$f58e7a40$5425a3ce@Bob.bendnet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 895 The discussion about insulation has been invaluable to me, since I'm in the process of playing contractor on the first new dwelling that I will own. One of the local insulation contractors is trying to sell me a product that I haven't seen discussed: InsulSafe III from CertainTeed. The process "combines InsulSafe III with a fine adhesive mist, then blows it into cavities behind netting." They claim: - It outperforms wet-spray and dry-pack cellulose and batts in reducing air infiltration when installed with a poly vapor retarder. (Holometrix report.) - It effectively fills voids. - Excellent sound control. - Most R's per inch. R-23 in 2" x 6" construction. - No settling. (I guess due to the adhesive.) - Permanently noncombustible. - No chemicals that can corrode pipes or wiring. - Permanent as glass. No moisture absorption that can cause rot, decay or reduced thermal efficiency. - No chemicals to create noxious odors. - Won't provide sustenance for insects or animals. - Can be installed in attics, sidewalls, and floors. It's also about 30 percent more expensive than fiber glass batts. Does anyone have experience with this product and care to share that experience? Is it green? Does it compare favorably to wet-spray cellulose? On a related note, the local contractor said that it can be legally installed over a vaulted ceiling without having any roof ventilation. The building site is in Bend, Oregon (Oregon's High Desert) with about 7000 heating degree days and a relatively dry climate. Rainfall is only about 15 inches per year. Is the lack of roof ventilation a BAD idea? Thanks in advance! Merry Christmas, everyone! Bob Foster bfoster@bendnet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 22 07:42:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA13511 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:42:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA12736 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:41:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA21105; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:37:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:32:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA20845 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:32:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.167]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA20841 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:32:11 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: <82720a94.349e5e9b@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 07:35:37 EST To: bfoster@bendnet.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: InsulSafe III, The Blow-In-Blanket System. Was: Cellulose as Air... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 896 In a message dated 97-12-21 21:31:00 EST, you write: << On a related note, the local contractor said that it can be legally installed over a vaulted ceiling without having any roof ventilation. It may be legal but why not vent the roof? Especially given your climateThe building site is in Bend, Oregon (Oregon's High Desert) with about 7000 heating degree days and a relatively dry climate. Sounds a lot like Colorado where I lived for 22 years and I'd sure vent a roof . Rainfall is only about 15 inches per year. So moisture doesn't seem to be a huge factor anyway. Is the lack of roof ventilation a BAD idea? Guess, I already made my opinion known. :) I am not familiar with the insulation but it sounds a little like overkill given the climate and that it's 30% more in cost. Doesn't sound that green in terms of content but hopefully you'll get more info on that. You may want to check into a roofing product called Ondura. It's 50% recycled content, tough as anything and much higher wind resistance than asphalt and a lifetime guarantee. I think they also have a ridge vent (better than fans) but not as green as the roofing product. Their number is 800-777-7663. Good luck and based on my experience in building our home, I hope you can take your time, research everything and unless the contractor has green leanings, check everything he says too. Good luck, Phil SustainAbility pbsustain@aol.com 540-891-2250 >> ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 22 10:37:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA14855 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:37:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA20305 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:36:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25573; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:32:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:27:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25192 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:27:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25188 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:27:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.20] (mke-1-4.binc.net [208.142.229.20]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA09898; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:31:48 -0600 Message-Id: <199712221531.JAA09898@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: SIPs Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 09:42:55 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "Jean Gallagher" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 897 A few reflections on the SIP preconceptions, misconceptions, and just plain conceptions floating around recently (sorry for the dely in my response- I've been working in the upper peninsula of Michigan installing SIPs): In the early days of SIPs (well over 10 years ago) there were a few isolated cases of delamination of EPS panels. I believe all of those problems have long since been worked out. Most SIP manufacturers, including the one I use (Insulspan) offer a lifetime warranty against delamination. I've seen SIPs driven over by errant semi drivers, only to have the foam break; the panel never delaminating. Most non-EPS panels have gone the way of leaded gas. Since the onset of greenhouse gas regulations, they are virtually unheard of. While the OSB skins on SIPs are of course subject to degredation from rot due to water exposure, the EPS is not. The last time I checked, spf studs rotted pretty good as well. Fred is right- owners of the structures we build need to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the systems. I try hard to educate my customers on this. But to say SIPs are more susceptable to water damage from neglect than are framed walls is just wrong. Heck, expose a well buit, over-built 150 year old timber framed barn to a leaky roof for one summer and it can cause the entire structure to fail (I've seen many). re: termites: if one is building in a termite (or carpenter ant) infested area, one needs to take that into consideration during the design phase, no matter what building system one is using. I have had carpenter ants get into a panel roof once. Don't ask me how. It was fun getting them out again. They did not cause structural damage, and did not compromise to any noticeable extent the insulation value of the panels, but it was disconcerting having bits of foam falling on the owner's bed. Now when I build in an area with ants (we don't yet have termites up here) we consider specifying borate treated foam (available as an option from the panel mfr), we suggest treating the backfill material with borax, and doing an annual exterior perimeter treatment. Other measures like planting certain juniper shrubs near the home can repel ants as well. Statistically, ants and termites don't infest panels with any greater frequency- they are just harder to get rid of. re: OSB "creep": I have never heard of panels which were properly engineered for their spans to sag. Panels are structurally analogous to an "I" beam, with the foam being the web and the OSB skins being the top and bottom flange. The thicker the web, the stronger the panel. If your panels are sagging, they are over spanned. Don't blame the panels, blame your engineer. Kind of like framing a 20' span 8 in 12 roof with 2 X 4's. Or not installing H clips on a 2' o.c. truss roof deck. Whose fault is that? re: structural redundancy: Panels are inherently 3 to 5 times stronger than a comparably sized stud frame system. Catastrophic failures are unheard of. There is so much inherent strength in the panel system that any degredation from rot would surely be detected long before the roof fell in. re: fire: EPS foam used in panels is treated with a flame retardant, giving the assembly an excellent flame rating. What I like is the impossibility of creating a "chimney effect", which causes the stud bays in a framed wall to go up like a match. I sincerely believe stick framing has its place. Extremely complicated shapes are a good example (although I think most of the complicated roofs we see today are some architect's monument to him/her self and are a leak waiting to happen). Most dormers are wonderfully simple to do with panels. My mfr will even pre-assemble them in the shop, so all I have to do is a little prep work, hook them with a crane, and voila! But for remodeling, many additions, and really wierd shapes, stick framing can't be beat, because of it's ability to be efficiently cut and shaped on site. With the cost and quality of framing lumber being what it is today (high, and low, respectively), panels are extremely cost competitive on a finished sq foot comparison. And the energy efficiency they offer is valuable anywhere but the most temperate climates. There's my two cents. Let's keep it going! Chris Koehn Top Ridge Homes ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 22 10:41:37 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA14927 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21262 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:40:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25905; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:36:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:32:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25571 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:32:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25567 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:31:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet3.carleton.ca [134.117.136.23]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v2.01) with ESMTP id KAA05756; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id KAA10224; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:36:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:36:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712221536.KAA10224@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Attic Ventilation (was re: Insulsafe III) Cc: dfugler@cmhc-schl.gc.ca Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 898 on Sun, 21 Dec 1997 "Bob Foster" wrote: re: InsulSafe III, The Blow-In-Blanket System. > On a related note, the local contractor said that it can be > legally installed over a vaulted ceiling without having any > roof ventilation > ...Bend, Oregon 7000 (HDD/yr), 15 inches (rain) per year. > Is the lack of roof ventilation a BAD idea? Hello Bob ; The following report from Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp (CMHC) might be of interest to you : ======================== SCANNED MATERIAL =============================== ATTIC VENTILATION AND MOISTURE CONTROL STRATEGIES. Prepared by Sheltair Scientific Ltd. CMHC Project Officer: Don Fugler. Ottawa: Research Division, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation, 1997 (report can be ordered from : chic@cmhc-schl.gc.ca or 613-748-2367 ] [snip] The purpose of this study is to demonstrate the effect on moisture levels in attic spaces resulting from the elimination of all intentional attic roof ventilation in newly constructed houses in the Vancouver Lower Mainland and the Edmonton area. [snip ] An air leakage test was performed on each house to measure the leakage rate between the attic and outdoors, between the attic and the house, and between the house and outdoors. It was found that: * The elimination of all intentional attic ventilation in the houses studied did not result in a trend towards either large reductions or elevations in wood moisture content of attic members in either Vancouver or Edmonton. Wood moisture content in attics generally peaked in January/February for both Vancouver and Edmonton. The moisture level in truss members was generally found to be lower than sheathing moisture levels. * Houses with higher indoor relative humidity levels showed higher attic moisture levels irrespective of attic ventilation or of interface leakage rates. * Differences in wood moisture content in attics was not found to relate directly to differences in interface leakage between the houses and attics. ========================= END of SCANNED MATERIAL======================= For the Murricans on the List who think that Canada is the 51st state of the Union, somewhere "up there by Minnesota".... Vancouver = very wet, in the Banana Belt of Canada, ~5400 HDD/yr Edmonton = dry, ~10,320 HDD/yr -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 22 12:26:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA16186 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA18275 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:25:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00582; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:20:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:16:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00254 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:16:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00249 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:16:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from epsform.cdsnet.net (d01a80b0.dip.cdsnet.net [208.26.128.176]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA05962 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:20:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 09:20:43 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199712221720.JAA05962@mail.cdsnet.net> X-Sender: epsform@mail.cdsnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: DARRIN THORNTON Subject: GBlist: degree days Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 899 What are and how do you compute these figures I keep seeing posted like......7,000 degree heating days and the such???? Thanks again, Darrin Thornton @ Polysteel Alternative Building Systems, Inc. 664 Hillandale Circle Eagle Point, Oregon 97524 Office 541-830-FORM (3676) Fax 541-830-3611 cell phone email text only 5419443626@mobile.att.net EMAIL: epsform@cdsnet.net www.cdsnet.net/Business/Polysteel That's about all the electronic leashes I want!! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 22 13:07:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA16628 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA01014 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:07:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02920; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:02:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:58:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02559 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:58:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@NS2.VINEYARD.NET [204.17.195.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02554 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:58:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA19365 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:02:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from asy15.vineyard.net(199.232.92.55) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma019208; Mon Dec 22 13:02:26 1997 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 10:46:09 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: What Next? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 900 Dear List Members, I've enjoyed the thread Fred started about the appropriate and responsible use of new technologies and systems. My question: beyond how we make walls and roofs, the windows we use, etc. (all of which is important) what do you all think are likely ways we're going to have the most positive impact on what gets built? Is it an additive process - incorporating new technologies in the same old forms? Or is it by creating new models? Surely the custom designed, single family, one house on one lot approach (this is much of what our company's work has been) is irrelevant. And the builder-driven tract homes (most of what is built in this country) are equally so in their present form, and in their approach to land use, transportation, and community. In our design/build company, we're beginning to think we need to develop the economic ability and skills to be good developers, developers who create integrated community-responsive projects with respect for and understanding of the needs of the the Commons. We think this may be a useful bridge to build. At present, we are the development consultant/designer/builder for a 16 unit cohousing community. I see great potential here. I just read Avi Friedman's book, "The Next Home" (available from Affordable Homes Program, School of Architecture, McGill University, 815 Sherbrooke St West, Montreal, Quebec, H3A 2K6 ). He proposes another way: a specific form of flexible, adaptable, affordable green row housing. What other whole systems approaches are people considering/doing to make our buildings be at once less damaging to the environment and restorative to our fragmented culture? Happy holidays to all, John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 22 13:27:16 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA16901 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:27:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA05692 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:26:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04085; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:17:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03577 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:17:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo03.mx.aol.com (imo03.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.105]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03573 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:17:09 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501 Message-ID: <46b250dd.349eaf73@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:20:30 EST To: epsform@cdsnet.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: degree days Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 901 In a message dated 12/22/97 12:28:28 PM, you wrote: << What are and how do you compute these figures I keep seeing posted like......7,000 degree heating days and the such???? Thanks again,>> Darrin, Degree days is a kind of running sum of the difference in temperature between inside and outside, so it gives you an idea of how cold or warm a place is. For example, If the inside temperature is 70 deg. F and the outside is 69 deg F for 24 hours you have 1 degree F - day - a difference iof 1 degree for a whole day. If you add up the difference between indoor and outdoor temperature for every day for the whole heating season, you have the number of heating degree days for the entire year. If you multiply that times the amount of heat the building looses in a day for each degree temperature difference, you have an estimate of how much power it will take to keep the building at room temperature all year. In New York State we run from about from around 5000 heating degree days (HDD) in NYC and Long Island to around 10,000 HDD in the Adirondack Mountains. That's the basics. After that you start accounting for details like: - the outdoor temperature varies greatly over the course of a day - the heat coming from the occupants, electric appliances and sun shining through the windows may keep the heating system from running until the outside temperature is 5 to 20 degrees below the thermostat set point (and solar and internal gains are not spread uniformly through the day) so you may want to count your degree days from a different indoor temperature than 70. Tables often report heating degree days from a base of 70 or 65 degrees. - Cooling dgree days or degree hours are generally measured from a setpoint that would be more appropriate for air conditioning - like 75 degrees or so. Solar and internal gains work against you in cooling mode. High humidity works against you too, because you end up having to put a bunch of power into condensing the moisture out of the air as well as cooling it down (the energy goes into causing a phase change rather than a temperature change). If you want more detail aboout any of this, let me know. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 22 13:40:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA17256 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:40:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA09082 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:39:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04835; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:35:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:31:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA04460 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:31:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04452 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:31:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.21] (mke-1-5.binc.net [208.142.229.21]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA07483 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:35:24 -0600 Message-Id: <199712221835.MAA07483@glacier.binc.net> Subject: GBlist: CF question Date: Mon, 22 Dec 97 12:46:31 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 902 How susceptable are compact flourescents to damage caused by vibration? I have a shop in my basement which is primarily lit with 8'flourescents, but there are also 3 porcalain sockets for incandescent bulbs mounted on the first floor joists. Besides being energy hogs, the A lamps fail prematurely, I believe due to foot traffic on the floor above causing the filament to vibrate. Will CF's stand up to these conditions better than A lamps? Thanks for the advice, Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 22 14:12:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA17643 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:11:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA17678 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:11:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06737; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:02:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA06417 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:02:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06413 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:02:16 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501 Message-ID: <5a2273e8.349eb8f7@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:01:08 EST To: jabrams@vineyard.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: What Next? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 903 In a message dated 12/22/97 1:15:42 PM, you wrote: <> Hi John, Thanks for bringing this around. Hre's some views of the same thing: the glass is half full or half empty or the damn thing is dirty and got a chip in it anyway... The view from my terrified shadow side: I urge everyone to stay in New York City if they currently live there and to move there if they don't. Except of course for me and a few others. Confines the development and transportation damage a lot more (although we still gotta get 'em water, power and food, and dispose of all the trash). And it also makes a convenient target for third party thermo-nuclear attacks (by terrorists or perhaps third world countries who have realized that killing one north American frees up a lot more energy and materials and protects a lot more habitat than any other action they can take). The view from my loving side: What I'm actually doing is working on multi-family (2 to 4 units per building) gut re-habs in Brooklyn. I'm working for Chris Benedict, who's working for a development agency. Chris has been able to get some good heavy insulation, tight construction, efficient ventilation stuff through codes down there. Now we're tackling reducing moisture and air quality problems by managing interzonal airflows and using exclusionary integrated pest control sealing to keep rodents and insects out of the buildings. I am incredibly grateful to Chris for including me in this work. I can't think of anything greener than building on habitat that has already been lost to most species, and ecological regulatory functions, is located in a city that has a (chaotically) functional mass transit system, while re-using existing buildings. I don't know how this plays out for your island, and I don't know how it plays out in the rural places or places that I think of as the outback. I, myself, am most comfortable in rural areas. Over the years I've lived in groups. Communes, collectives and landtrusts. I never lived alone until I separated from Jane in 1987. Living alone has turned out to be a very good and healing thing for me. Maybe I could have worked that out in more of a community living situation, but I didn't. What I ended up with is living over the business in a raised ranch. One building provides a place for three of us to work and me to live. I notice with each pass I take at this, it gets more personal and more honest. Starting in my head with Malthus and third world countries and ending with where I live and confusion. It doesn't get any better than this, John. Think global, act loco... -Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 22 14:42:07 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18009 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:42:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA25829 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:41:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08183; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:36:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:32:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07739 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:32:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from sparticus.eurekanet.com (root@sparticus.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07733 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:32:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (port-02-12.athens.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.142]) by sparticus.eurekanet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA09799; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 17:14:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712222214.RAA09799@sparticus.eurekanet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Catherine M. Muller" Organization: National Center for Appropriate Technology To: dfugler@cmhc-schl.gc.ca Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:26:23 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Ventilation Reply-to: cmuller@ncat.org CC: be417@freenet.carleton.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <199712221536.KAA10224@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 904 Robert W. Tom wrote: > The following report from Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp (CMHC) > might be of interest to you : >... > * Houses with higher indoor relative humidity levels showed > higher > attic moisture levels irrespective of attic ventilation or of > interface leakage rates. > * Differences in wood moisture content in attics was not found to > relate directly to differences in interface leakage between the > houses and attics. Hi Don, I'm very intrigued by these findings. Current common wisdom is that sealing bypasses between the house and the attic can substantially reduce the amount of moisture in an attic. These results seem to negate this idea. It sounds as if the main factor you found influencing attic moisture was interior moisture loads. Is your study showing that the other factors were insignificant? What sort of range were you finding for the connections between the house and the attic, i.e. were these homes all fairly tight to the attic? CM Catherine M. Muller Project Coordinator, Multi-family Services National Center for Appropriate Technology 16 Spring Street, Glouster, Ohio 45732 cmuller@ncat.org 614/767-9000 (phone); 614/767-9033 (fax) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 22 14:43:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18032 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:43:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26306 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:42:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08316; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:38:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:34:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07872 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:33:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07864 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:33:52 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: <8272ae90.349ec0ac@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 14:34:00 EST To: crkoehn@mailbag.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: SIPs Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 905 To add to the panel discussion...Does anyone have experience building with agricultural waste based panels such as AgriBoard or similar? These are primarily wheat straw that have been compressed and molded and sandwiched between OSP board. If you do have experience or information, I'd be very interested. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 22 16:00:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA18857 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:00:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA19086 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11302; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:55:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:51:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10987 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:50:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10983 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 15:50:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA15148 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:56:00 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 22 Dec 1997 12:51:34 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: RE: WHAT'S NEXT To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA10984 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 906 John, I wish more developers had your attitude. It is my opinion--and I hope not to offend you or others--that developers, as a group, are one of the lower forms of life on the planet, and certainly in this country. The majority seem to be driven by greed alone, and would cut down the last remaining redwood on the face of the planet if they could make a few bucks off it. >From my viewpoint as a non-builder, I think you are exactly right that the typical stick-built tract house makes no sense anymore. It seems factory-builts have a future, as their designs and energy-efficiency increase. Modulars (which I guess include SIPs) seem like a good filler between stick-built and factory-built. In local ways, there might be other situations paralleling what we have here in the northern California central valley: incredible amounts of rice straw that have, historically, been burned each fall. The legislature has finally taken progressive burn-ban steps, but the farmers are caught in the middle. There were rumors that an agriboard-type factory was considering moving to the area, but another rumor that the wafer board industry threatened to price them out of the market. The state legislature passed a bill "urging" county building inspectors to "seriously consider" strawbale buildings, but nothing serious will happen unless a big builder or developer takes a run at it, and thereby "legitimizes" it. (Now all you get is the Three Pigs local journalist story whenever anyone builds a strawbale home.) I'm continually amazed that the public at large is more interested in reviews of the latest blockbuster movie, than they are in how/what/when/why homes are built. People who have incredible knowledge about computers and software, frequently don't know even basics of construction/plumbing/HVAC, etc. As someone else said, and schools of architecture teach their student to be sculptors. Well, sorry about the rant. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 22 16:57:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA19603 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:57:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA04952 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:56:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA13655; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:51:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:46:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA13343 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:46:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from millkern.com (millkern.com [205.197.248.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA13338 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:46:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnatella (asc119.idsonline.com [207.176.21.119]) by millkern.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA05828 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:51:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971222165138.006ff4e0@scgcorp.com> X-Sender: dnatella@scgcorp.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:51:38 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Dave Natella Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: WHAT'S NEXT In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 907 At 12:51 PM 12/22/97 -0700, Jean wrote: >John, > >I wish more developers had your attitude. It is my opinion--and I hope not [snip] > >I'm continually amazed that the public at large is more interested in >reviews of the latest blockbuster movie, than they are in how/what/when/why >homes are built. People who have incredible knowledge about computers and >software, frequently don't know even basics of construction/plumbing/HVAC, >etc. As someone else said, and schools of architecture teach their student >to be sculptors. > A "ray of sunshine": there are more television shows and popular magazines concerned with construction and renovation than there were 5 years ago. Many of them pay lip or real service to green building. There must be a growing population of viewers/readers to provide the financial incentive that allows the shows/magazines to be produced. Let's hope they are good enough to educate and motivate an increased environmental concern among the populace. Dave Natella The Scientific Consulting Group, Inc. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 22 18:14:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA20537 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:14:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA24658 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:13:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15588; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:08:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:04:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA15360 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:04:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV (dcsmtp.wictok7.epa.gov [161.80.160.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15356 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:08:51 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 18:03:17 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Structural Panels and Building Practices: Overview of a Swedish Experience Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 908 I have been watching the discussion about SIPs with some interest and have two unrelated thoughts, one of which I will discuss here and the other which I will save for now. One recent contributor said something like, "If we've been doing it for 100 years (meaning stick-building), it must be working," while others have intoned the idea of moving to new and better technologies and practices. (Did Ford say, "We've been making black cars for ten years, it must be working?") As this discussion unfolded I was reminded of a presentation I saw about two years ago given here in our EPA offices by David Hawke from the New Jersey Institute of Technology about a company called something like SVELSKA (don't quote me on that). After seeing that presentation, I was appalled that typical American building practices are essentially unchanged for a century (except now we use guns instead of hammers for nails). Would we accept that from any other industry? Cars? Telephones? Newspapers? You name it. Allow me to describe the presentation as best I recall it. (Bion, have you seen this?--you have a better memory than the average human!) This Swedish company manufactures houses, primarily using SIPs. The manufacturing floor is completely automated and flexible. No worker is actually allowed to touch the wood, in fact. Here's the amazing part. You bring in your drawings for the house (any house you like - square boxes need not apply) at 8:30AM and your house leaves on trucks at 5:00 o'clock. A foundation is poured; the house is assembled over a few days and--ta da--done. Everything is designed into the panels: plumbing, electrical, window openings, etc. The houses are incredibly efficient, too. The factory experiences about 3% waste lumber, which they burn to generate electricity. They manage their own forests, which they over plant by 20%. They do this so that the trees don't grow low branches, resulting in knotless wood. (Find me a U.S. company that would try that!--no, they're too efficient with their resources.) David Hawke went on for an hour of jaw-dropping incredibleness about this company. They treat the manufacture of housing like Toyota treats the manufacture of automobiles. The company owns the Swedish housing market. How can anyone compete 6 months of labor to stick build against 3 days to assemble a house that is actually higher quality? Shouldn't we expect that the lessons we have learned about flexible manufacturing, continuously rising quality (declining defects), inventory control, waste reduction, etc. in traditional manufacturing be applied to homes? Or does every one need to be built by hand, the way automobiles were manufactured in the 1890's? Thanks for listening. Steve O. (I know, I know. If they are so great, why are they not here taking over the U.S. market? I don't know the answer to that. Anyone?) __________ Contact Information: --PLEASE NOTE NEW PHONE NUMBERS-- Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs U. S. EPA - 6202J 401 M Street, SW Washington, DC 20460 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epamail.epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html __________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 22 22:18:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA23355 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:18:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA17239 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:17:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA21585; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:13:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:06:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA21307 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:06:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21303 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:06:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.29] (blf29.acadia.net [205.217.217.29]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA20244 for ; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:11:00 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 22:09:10 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Re: What Next? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 909 Dear Folks, Thanks to John Abrams for asking a very good question! He seems to have realized the limits of a designer/builder - even one of his high caliber - to influence the sustainability of the human built environment. He's asking if he couldn't have more impact as a developer with green conciousness and the technical skills to be an innovator. He seems to be asking whether there are more effective levers than the ones he's been pushing on. This is a thread which could occupy us for years. What are the most effective "leverage points" for increasing habitat sustainability? I've thought about this some, and would like to post some thoughts just to keep the discussion going. Please criticize, poke holes, expand upon, etc. I think one of the most influential leverage points is how mortgages and financing are structured. Bankers and lending officers control, to an enormous extent, what gets built how, and they haven't the time or interest to look at innovations. In fact, innovation is risky, and so discouraged. Also, the practice of financing only "finished" buildings is terrible. Having to "finish" the building to convert a construction loan to a mortgage encourages slapdash construction. And now, with the "whole" building financed at once, the owners money flows to interest payments, instead of being plowed back into the building and its gradual improvement. Interest rates rarely distinguish good buildings from bad. Years ago, I convinced two local banks in Maine to deduct 1% from mortgage rates for homes which met Maine's (voluntary) energy standards, with the argument that these homes were better credit risks because of lower fuel bills. The banks did this for two years, until they were swallowed by larger banks, who then discontinued the program. The EPA program for energy rated mortgages is on the right track. Another powerful leverage point is the real-estate and appraisal industry. Realtors and appraisers shape perceptions about what the "market" demands and "what the public wants". I've had clients who did not dare to innovate because a realtor told them that their home "wouldn't have resale value". How much of this is self-fulfilling prophecy is hard to tell, but I think that if we could change perceptions among realtors and appraisers, it wopuld help a lot. Ditto for code enforcement officers. The codes in and of themselves I've never found to be much help or hindrance. Most of the code officials I work with are honest professionals, but we've all run into the ignorant, power-mad or corrupt ones too. (Yeah, even here in Maine - the one in the small city next to our town is as bad as they come.) Because I used to work with Chris Alexander, I believe that the built environment is made out of Patterns from our minds. Simply put, we decide what to build from rules of thumb, or patterns. Many, many people get their patterns from hardware stores, lumber yards and people in the construction trades. They decide what to make their world out of by looking at the HQ flyer or talking to their cousin who's a plumber. So a pattern, say, Vinyl Shower Curtain with Friction Fit Plastic Rod becomes the pattern for the riddle of keeping water inside the bath stall. Reform what staff at the lumber hards tell people and you've found enormous leverage. Well there's a ton to write, but I'll turn it over to others. Apologies for the length, but Gee! This is a great topic. - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 23 02:21:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA25797 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:21:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA09469 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:20:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA27692; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:11:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA27429 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:11:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (root@hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.142]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA27425 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:11:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin125.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.135]) by hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu with SMTP (8.8.6/8.7.1) id XAA29304; Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:15:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <349F6551.5E73@uidaho.edu> Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:16:33 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: STEPHEN OFFUTT CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Structural Panels and Building Practices: Overview of a Swedish Experience References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 910 STEPHEN OFFUTT wrote: > company manufactures houses, primarily using SIPs. The manufacturing floor is > completely automated and flexible. No worker is actually allowed to touch the > wood, in fact. Hey! Part of the joy in building is the opportunity to touch the material! > like - square boxes need not apply) at 8:30AM and your house leaves on trucks at > 5:00 o'clock. > and--ta da--done. Everything is designed into the panels: plumbing, electrical, Where does that leave design during construction? I would argue that the ability to shape space from foundation through finish is necessary for all but the most preordained-prone individuals. They treat the manufacture of housing like Toyota treats the > manufacture of automobiles. I think that we can still have a hands-on, creative, flexible, construction process and still maintain efficiency - just depends on what kind of efficiency your after. Architecture just 'aint a Toyota. Leci n'est pas une pipe, eh? Kurt Rathmann Moscow, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 23 08:22:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA28219 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:22:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA08779 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:22:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03795; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:13:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA03384 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:13:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03380 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:13:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA24297 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 08:16:59 -0500 Message-id: <1712174@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 23 Dec 97 08:22:29 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: What Next? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 911 On the topic of where's the leverage: There is a great article in the new issue of Whole Earth Review (yes, they're back!) by Donella Meadows on exactly this question, and it's the best thing of hers i've ever read. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 23 09:28:59 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA29896 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:28:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA21725 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:28:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05418; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:23:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:19:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05144 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:19:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo01.mx.aol.com (imo01.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05140 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:19:20 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1 Message-ID: <4404aae2.349fc95f@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 09:23:24 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org, jean_gallagher@macgate.csuchico.edu Subject: GBlist: Is It What We Don't Know? or What We Know But Are Not Teaching Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 912 Jean, John and Terry have all made some really beautiful comments about where we might be/are heading in our construction evolution. I have some shared concerns to add to the echo... << Jean wrote: People ... frequently don't know even basics of construction, plumbing, HVAC, etc.>> Some additional frustrations: Snail's pace evolution in new construction technology.... reluctance to give new life to old buildings.... reuse of valuable existing building materials... we gotta clear these trees to put the road in first.... Building to "Minumum Property Standards" that make people pay high energy bills instead of enabling them to feed, clothe and teach their children... builders fighting energy codes and forgetting that these represent the LEAST efficient buildings we should be building... the amount of single glazing in New York multi-family residential buildings (and Chicago and many other cities)... utility rate hikes approved when freshman-level econ shows the ROI on weatherization..... End of (partial) rant. One of the things that is most frustrating is how little we teach people about the BASICS of operating their home. Not just how the thermostat works, or where the reset button is on the water heater. Have our senses become dulled to the point where we don't want to KNOW how our homes work, just that they work? Why do we still have new contruction with leaky basements? Leaky roofs? Bad insulation jobs? NEW construction! Have our expectations lowered? We can bounce balloons on Mars and get near-real-time photos, yet we still build new homes with single glazing? Just how smart ARE we? My wife grew up thinking that it was NORMAL to put plastic up on your windows every winter. The whole block did it... usually on the same weekend. Towels at the bottom of the doors and windows to catch the water. This was NORMAL. I recently revisted that block in central Ohio. The tradition lives on. Sorry for the ramble... you guys (and gals) just pressed a lot of buttons.... I think we have a fundamental and societal-level education problem.... Happy Holidays to all. I promise I'll try to be a bit more coherent in 1998...:) Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 23 10:36:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00737 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:36:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA08488 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:35:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07469; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:30:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:26:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07166 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:26:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07162 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:26:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA00792 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:30:43 -0500 Message-id: <1713507@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 23 Dec 97 10:36:14 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Re: What Next? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 913 --- You wrote: How bout posting some subscription info for the Whole Earth Review --- end of quoted material --- e-mail wer@well.com subscriptions 800-783-4903 The issue I mentioned was 91. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 23 10:55:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00941 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:55:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA14399 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:55:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08328; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:50:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:46:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07997 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:46:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07993 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:46:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA04162; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:51:29 -0800 Message-ID: <349FDCB6.44D43DEC@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:45:58 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John R. Abrams" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: What Next? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 914 John R. Abrams wrote: > Dear List Members, > > I've enjoyed the thread Fred started about the appropriate and > responsible > use of new technologies and systems. My question: beyond how we make > > walls and roofs, the windows we use, etc. (all of which is important) > what > do you all think are likely ways we're going to have the most positive > > impact on what gets built? Is it an additive process - incorporating > new > technologies in the same old forms? Or is it by creating new models? > Surely the custom designed, single family, one house on one lot > approach > (this is much of what our company's work has been) is irrelevant. And > the > builder-driven tract homes (most of what is built in this country) are > > equally so in their present form, and in their approach to land use, > transportation, and community. > I have to agree quite strongly and want to add that if the focus is on making the model more relevant much of the technology may become increasingly irrelevant or to put it more positively will become more appropriate meaning working with and to the limits of what is needed as opposed to servicing the marketplace. Technology also needs to somehow become more economically responsive or responsible to its application. An example of this for me is net metering applications: The technology is here to generate considerable amounts of electricity from residential and commercial rooftops. Application of this technology would reduce and probably could eliminate further environmental impact from conventional hydro production. It makes sense that houses function as a part of the technology to service our needs rather than simply be the source of demand. This however would be a major shift in how and what we view the components of a house and house ownership to consist of. > In our design/build company, we're beginning to think we need to > develop > the economic ability and skills to be good developers, developers who > create integrated community-responsive projects with respect for and > understanding of the needs of the the Commons. I have similar goals but have a reticence about linking commercial and social goals. Having worked in community development prior to operating a private design/build company I am still of the opinion that the best projects are initiated and developed directly by the community involved. The stumbling block has always been a lack of related skills and this has doomed a lot of projects but for those that succeeded the development of those skills within the affected community generally resulted in the development of a stronger vision and community. It would be interesting to look at the history of community housing from a development perspective. Canada had a fairly rich history in co-op housing development in the 70's mostly as a result of government support. It lasted long enough to spawn the development of secondary community groups comprised of individuals skilled in development and facilitation. One such group called 'Lantana' (I think) in Toronto comes to mind as a particularly skilled group of community housing developers. The group was I think a non-profit incorporation. The biggest problem is that the majority of housing is initiated by a developer not by a community. A community may establish a development plan within an area but these plans are usually compromised or eroded by the actual developments that take place. What would be the process by which a community could engender a community plan and then control the design and implementation of that plan? One thing I know is that a commercial development group would be unlikely to work with that process (and make its investors very happy) There seems to be so much to discuss on this subject. I'll leave my ramble for now and best wishes to everyone over the holidays John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 23 12:50:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02678 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:50:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA17556 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:49:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12885; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:43:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:39:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12567 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:38:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12561 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:38:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.32] (blf32.acadia.net [205.217.217.32]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA13555 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:43:23 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:41:34 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Re: Greenbuilding Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 915 Dear Folks, In my last post, I should have mentioned that my opinions are primarily based on experience in the U.S. (New England and California) with a smattering of experience from Mexico, Germany, Netherlands, Sweden, Norway and Denmark. Happy Solistace and Holidays. - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 23 12:54:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02728 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:54:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA18697 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:53:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13233; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:48:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:45:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12963 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:44:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12956 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:44:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.25.64.208] (usr2a40.rut.sover.net [206.25.64.236]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA23138; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:49:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:49:21 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <8272ae90.349ec0ac@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Pbsustain , crkoehn@mailbag.com From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: SIPs Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 916 At first glance, these would seem to be ideal: SIP construction without the foamed plastics. There is a problem, however, for climates with significant heating loads: At the high density needed to bond the straw (without binders), it doesn't insulate very well. In contrast to the company's previous claims, actual R-values are around R-2 per inch. Nadav Environmental Building News At 2:34 PM -0500 12/22/97, Pbsustain wrote: >To add to the panel discussion...Does anyone have experience building with >agricultural waste based panels such as AgriBoard or similar? These are >primarily wheat straw that have been compressed and molded and sandwiched >between OSP board. If you do have experience or information, I'd be very >interested. >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 23 14:34:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA04023 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:34:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA11938 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:33:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA17645; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:28:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:24:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA17288 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:24:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA17281 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:24:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA17316 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:28:50 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 00055617; Tue, 23 Dec 97 13:17:50 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 13:27:54 -0600 Message-ID: <00055617.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #484 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="RFC822 message headers" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Content-Disposition: inline; filename="RFC822 message headers" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 917 re: OSB "creep": I have never heard of panels which were properly engineered for their spans to sag. Panels are structurally analogous to an "I" beam, with the foam being the web and the OSB skins being the top and bottom flange. The thicker the web, the stronger the panel. If your panels are sagging, they are over spanned. Don't blame the panels, blame your engineer. Kind of like framing a 20' span 8 in 12 roof with 2 X 4's. Or not installing H clips on a 2' o.c. truss roof deck. Whose fault is that? I think you're confusing wood "stiffness", and instantaeous "deflection", with "creep".....creep is a TIME-DEPENDANT phenomenon, taking place over many years/decades. It occurs when a wood member bears a constant load(eg., bookshelves may creep over many years, and develop a sag.), and is accelerated when the member is subjected to alternating high/low humidity(conditions common in the northern U.S.). Deflection takes place on a "macro" level, creep occurs on a microscopic level, when wood cells slowly slip by one another. Of the three most common forms of structural wood, OSB has been shown to creep much more readily than either plywood or solid wood. So, I think creep IS an issue, if you're relying solely on OSB as your structural members. - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: greenbuilding-digest V1 #484 Author: greenbuilding@crest.org at Internet Date: 12/23/97 2:00 AM Received: from us.teltech.com (198.174.238.254) by mimegate.gen.teltech.com with SMTP (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005552E; Tue, 23 Dec 97 00:54:48 -0600 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA14781 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 01:05:48 -0600 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA26848; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:00:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:00:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA26734 for greenbuilding-digest-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:00:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 02:00:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712230700.CAA26734@solstice.crest.org> From: owner-greenbuilding-digest@crest.org (greenbuilding-digest) To: greenbuilding-digest@crest.org Subject: greenbuilding-digest V1 #484 Reply-To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding-digest@crest.org Precedence: bulk ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 23 14:48:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA04211 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:48:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15479 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:48:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18204; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:43:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:39:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA17943 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:39:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from UPIMSSMTPSYS03 (upimssmtpsys03.email.msn.com [207.68.152.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA17939 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:39:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR03 - 207.68.143.159 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:43:28 -0800 Received: from GFX-CH - 153.35.7.218 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:43:28 -0800 From: "carmine vasile" To: "Eric" Cc: "Jim Vaughn" , "Warren Hodgdon" , , Subject: GBlist: Re: humble graywater Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:44:38 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <008bb28431917c7UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 918 Hello Eric: Best wishes to all for the holiday season, and thank you for the kind words Eric. I hope the fact that CADDET stands for "Center for the Analysis and Dissemination of ..."Demonstrated"... Energy Efficiency Technologies" will satisfy the naysayer and ..."too good to be true"... crowd. It's time to deploy GFX technology, while the crowd continues to ponder. NOTE: Julia Kelly & Dr. Marilyn Brown of Oak Ridge National Laboratory kindly invited me to submit a draft for the US Team's contribution to the December 1997 CADDET Newsletter. My original version was extensively rewritten; with key new facts and figures added by the editors. One very important contribution from them was to amplify my cited US Department of Energy estimate of 235 billion kWh of residential wastewater energy as follows: "The EIA estimates that in 1995 residential water heaters in the US consumed 740 TWh of energy and commercial water heaters consumed 320 TWh. Approximately 80-90% of all hot water energy goes down the drain, carrying with it up to 955 TWh in the US alone. Efforts to recycle this waste energy, such as the GFX system, can result in significant energy savings." If anyone on the GB-List knows how much is wasted worldwide, please let us know. Eric's Earthstar system will catch what GFX misses, as his is a batch system. Between the two lot's of "GrayGold" can be saved, but I'm not sure anyone ever calculated the size of this "humble" reserve; possibly because the US EPA has no wastewater heat recovery program. Think about it for five (5) seconds: No matter how efficient water heaters can be made, if "80-90%" of the energy to heat water is discarded, then even a perfect "open-loop" water heating system will exhibit a system efficiency of just 10-20%, as compared to 80-90% for an ideal "closed-loop" system that recycles ALL of the waste heat now sent to the sewers. F.Y.I. The CADDET article on GFX is now available online @: http://www.caddet-ee.org/newsdesk/nw497_05.htm An abstract appears @ http://www.caddet-ee.org/nw497_co.htm Thanks again, Carmine ===================================================== Dr. Carmine Vasile, CEO Voice: 516-758-6271 WaterFilm Energy Inc. Fax: 516-758-0438 P.O. Box 48 Email: gfx-ch@msn.com Oakdale, NY 11769 ===================================================== -----Original Message----- From: Eric To: carmine vasile Date: Monday, December 22, 1997 11:56 PM Subject: humble graywater >>===================================================== > Dear Carmine > Wow indeed! many congratulations on a great achievemnet to get the humble >graywater BTU's such pedestal attention! > > perhaps we should even say -- Hot xxxx! > >coming full circle on our waste has to be realized before our capabilities >in the high tech arena will ever be made sustainable, i.e. worthwhile! > >One step at a time.. > >high regards for your diligence > >Eric T. Olsen > > >___________________________________________________________________________ ___ > >Earthstar Energy Systems eto@midcoast.com > >P.O. Box 626 Tel.(207)832-6861 >Rt 220 @ US Rt 1 Fax (207)832-7314 >Waldoboro, ME 04572 >___________________________________________________________________________ ___ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 23 16:26:47 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA06010 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:26:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA08261 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:26:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA21233; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:21:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:17:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20867 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:16:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.177]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20863 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:16:52 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501 Message-ID: <41298ea5.34a02b1f@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:20:29 EST To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: What Next? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 919 In a message dated 12/22/97 7:49:10 PM, you wrote: <> Hi Marc, In multi's over three stories tall, in cold climates, air leaks between floors and between apartments and corridors (corridors leaky to elevator shafts and fire egress stairwells), cause a stack pressure strong enough that it is impractical to exhaust ventilate the upper floors when it is cold out - all the make-up air comes from the floors below. This results in migration of odors (food and tobacco odors are the most frequent complaints), moisture and heated air. The moisture migration may result in condensation and fungal growth on the upper floors. There's some financial compensation for the odor and fungi ridden upper floor dwellers because they don't have to pay to heat the apartments. Sealing the air leaks between floors and between the apartments and the corridors changes the stack pattern, shifting towards the staircase scenario in the ASHRAE fiendamentals. So this reduces the total stack driven flow and each apartment sees a reduced pressure difference between indoors and outdoors, making it possible for a small exhaust fan to depressurize an individual apartment relative to outdoors and at least some outdoor air is drawn into the apartment. These dynamics are well laid out in the Canadian classic - "Building Science for a Cold Climate" (which I've occassionally summarized with the single phrase - "I like the Carribean"). So here's the other couple of pieces - epidemiology studies conducted in US urban centers over the past couple of years have found that roach alergen is the strongest correlate to asthma incidence (previous studies have found insect parts and rodent allergen to be associated with asthma, but the new stuff is overwhelming on roaches). The same chases, shafts and gaps around pipes, conduit and wires that we know so well as passages for air, moisture and contaminants, are the major entry and distribution infrastructure for rodents and arthropods. So a big piece of integrated pest control for these guys is sealing up the transportation routes between harborage, food and water. In fact, with rodents, sealing isn't simply a piece, it is only thing that can keep rodents out of buildings. Rodents are burrow dwellers (one name for the norwegian rat is "sewer rat") so there is a huge ecological niche for them beneath each city. According to Al Greene, the IPM guy at GSA in Washington, any rodent control program that doesn't include exclusion will have a temporary effect on rodent populations at best. So sealing up to prevent energy, ventilation, indoor air quality and moisture problems in multi's can, with a little modification and an informed eye, also be part of a pest control plan. I like combining all these efforts into one. One problem is that while air and odors don't eat foam, plywood and caulk - rodents and some insects do. So sealants need to be concrete, metal or reinforced (like hardware cloth in foam). In fact, you really need someone who loves the bugs and rodents in order to seal against them effectively. And there are important things occupants have to do to keep the building from being infested. But that's another story. If you are interested in more detail on integrated pest control, the lifestyles of the roach and rodent, or dishwater dull stack equations give a holler and I'll tell what I believe and who I've learned from. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 23 16:37:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA06117 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:37:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA10953 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:36:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA21960; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:31:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:27:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA21508 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:27:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21504 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:27:37 -0500 (EST) From: Marcoplos Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 16:20:24 EST To: TBren46501@aol.com, epsform@cdsnet.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: degree days Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 920 The term should be "heating day degrees" instead of "heating degree days". Who coined this term anyway? Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 23 17:14:41 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA06567 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:14:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA20269 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:13:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23314; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:09:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:05:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23047 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:05:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23042 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 17:05:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA13686; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:10:09 -0800 Message-ID: <34A03573.EF493B50@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 14:04:35 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: TBren46501 CC: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: What Next? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <41298ea5.34a02b1f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 921 Hi Terry You sure brought back some distant memories of too many years on the lower east side of manhattan. In that local it was considered impossible to live pest (or wildlife depending on your opinion) free. Despite the objections of my then partner I refused to bomb the place and insisted I could seal it (my partner insisted on nothing less than bug and rat free) I tore out every cabinet and fixture, filled every penetration hole with a mixture of plaster, chopped wire and glass, dusted and filled every crevise with borax and then caulked over that and weatherstripped every window and door opening. The place was kept hospital clean and I remember renewing the seals quite often. The place was bug free and a refuge for friends but it certainly shortened what would have been the natural course of that relationship. Its worrisome to hear about the data on roach alergen - add that to the base toxicity of those tenements and it makes me feel that there is more work than ever to do in housing all our good people. take care John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. TBren46501 wrote: > I In fact, you really need someone > who loves the bugs and rodents in order to seal against them > effectively. And > there are important things occupants have to do to keep the building > from > being infested. But that's another story. If you are interested in > more > detail on integrated pest control, the lifestyles of the roach and > rodent, or > dishwater dull stack equations give a holler and I'll tell what I > believe and > who I've learned from. - Terry > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 23 20:26:22 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA13826 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:26:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA04278 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:25:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA28502; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:20:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:16:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA28228 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:16:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28221 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:16:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.19] (blf19.acadia.net [205.217.217.19]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA03415 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:21:09 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:19:19 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: SIPs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 922 >At first glance, these would seem to be ideal: SIP construction without the >foamed plastics. There is a problem, however, for climates with significant >heating loads: > >At the high density needed to bond the straw (without binders), it doesn't >insulate very well. In contrast to the company's previous claims, actual >R-values are around R-2 per inch. > >Nadav >Environmental Building News > > >At 2:34 PM -0500 12/22/97, Pbsustain wrote: >>To add to the panel discussion...Does anyone have experience building with >>agricultural waste based panels such as AgriBoard or similar? These are >>primarily wheat straw that have been compressed and molded and sandwiched >>between OSP board. If you do have experience or information, I'd be very >>interested. >>______________________________________________________________________ Nadav and others, The tested R-value of Agriboard, one brand of straw-based SIP, is 14.4 for a 4 inch panel and 28.8 for a 7-7/8" panel. Prices are considerably higher (F.O.B. Texas) than EPS based SIPS - almost double. Panels are load bearing, though, with impressive structural values. This is not a material to dismiss. - David ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 23 20:48:25 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA14529 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:48:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA07991 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:47:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA29000; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:42:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:39:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA28765 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:38:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28761 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:38:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.104.90] (usrts1p90.port.net [207.237.104.90]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA12290 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 20:43:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712240143.UAA12290@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: GBlist: Re: Whats next? Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 20:45:40 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 923 A What's Next reply........ >Some additional frustrations: Snail's pace evolution in new construction >technology.... The snail's pace in evolution has served it extremely well.......... don't forget the post World War 20th century is but a speck of time in the history of human habitant. As witnessed by the enumeral discussions posted on this list I think the evolution of construction technology is exceptionally robust and healthy right now despite the popular concepts of buildings as just another commodity like soy beans or computer chips............ hopefully this too shall pass. Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 23 23:05:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA20837 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:05:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA05681 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 23:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01549; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:58:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:52:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01177 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:52:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01169 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 22:52:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA26958 for ; Tue, 23 Dec 1997 19:57:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 23 Dec 1997 19:57:29 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: MOSTLY MORTGAGES To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id WAA01171 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 924 David--when you talk about Òhow mortgages are structured,Ó my interest level goes up, but I wonder what you mean, or imply. For those of us lucky enough to have access to the internet, mortgage loan possibilities are increasing almost more rapidly than we can deal with. Websites that take information on your situation, then run it through 6 or 20 lending institutions to see which has the best terms. Mortgages which offer 3,5,7,10 year fixed rates, then go to ARMs. Not to mention magazines like Money (which a friend of mine in the financial business calls Moneyporn), which publish monthly guides to best 30yr/equity/cd/money market rates. IÕm not sure how we can improve on healthy competition like this among lenders, but would love to be enlightened. Same for changes in construction loans, for work-in-progress alterations. But weÕre then, I fear, back to the realization that most people are more concerned about being in the RIGHT neighborhood than in green building or, for that matter, personal building. And the ÒproblemÓ with capitalism, of course, is that norms are created by masses. I wonder if, in fact, Òhaving to finish the building to convert [from construction] to mortgage loanÓ is what results in ÒslapdashÓ construction, or if lack of thought and pre-planning are more, or equally, the culprets? Both you and Kurt Rathman, I think, touched on the need for making changes during the building process. Only those of us with the luxury of having been able to do that can appreciate the joy of moving a wall or window a little for what ÒfeltÓ right. (In a warehouse loft my husband and I once did, we moved a toilet about 18Ó so it would have a good view of a nice figure in one of the floorboards.) Chris Mathis mentioned what IÕve often felt: the need for more education about homebuilding technology. Happy Holidays. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 24 03:44:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA02017 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:44:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA23613 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:43:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA06293; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:39:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:35:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA06076 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:35:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from deimos.spiretech.com (0@[207.173.200.226]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA06072 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 03:35:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from hal- (ppp-20-portland.spiretech.com [207.173.204.20]) by deimos.spiretech.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id BAA10649 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 01:32:40 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19971223124534.0079fda0@spiretech.com> X-Sender: kholman@spiretech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:45:34 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Kathleen Holman Subject: GBlist: GBLIST: MORTGAGES Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 925 To add a new thread to Jean Gallagher's discussion about mortgages... What are everyone's experiences with how green building techniques affect the value of a home? Some of us here in Portland are trying to assess how buildings built "green" are perceived by appraisers, etc. If a home is built with better indoor air quality and natural or recycled construction materials, shouldn't it be worth more, financially speaking, than a house that is built less sustainably? Apparently, one of the problems that has been encountered in this regard is that no one seems to know the resale value of sustainable homes. Which is to say, most people that get homes built "green" to their customization are so happy with them, they never want to move. So their is no real gage for appraisers and those in the real estate market when it comes to the value of green homes. Has anyone else had similar experiences? This thread may seem a little extraneous to the usual discussion, but I truly believe that tangible benefits like a higher resale values will really help sign the average consumer on to green building practices... Kathleen Holman Gretchen Vadnais Landscape Architect, L.L.C. Portland, Oregon e-mail: kholman@spiretech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 24 06:03:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA06094 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:03:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA13531 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:02:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA09199; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 05:56:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Dec 1997 05:52:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA09010 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 05:52:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@NS2.VINEYARD.NET [204.17.195.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA09005 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 05:52:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA24709 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 05:56:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from asy15.vineyard.net(199.232.92.55) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma024702; Wed Dec 24 05:56:20 1997 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 06:59:43 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: What's Next Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 926 A few thoughts about some of the What's Next responses: Jean Gallagher said, >I wish more developers had your attitude. It is my opinion--and I hope not >to offend you or others--that developers, as a group, are one of the lower >forms of life on the planet, and certainly in this country. Precisely. Very low form of life. That's why it seems worthwhile to become one - easy to be at the pinnacle of this subterranean heap. Hmm. . . mutant developers. And David Foley's comments about bankers and appraisers being key parts of the puzzle: You said it! This is why we have to take Terry's "Think global, act loco" adage to heart. What's loco? Loco is acting with certainty on the belief that regulatory officials, bankers, and appraisers are key ALLIES in the development drama, from the beginning. The project we're working on busts loose the local mold in terms of zoning (our area is the epitome of large lot, dispersed, "too large to mow, too small to grow" development patterns), banking (tightly clustered high quality housing - you gotta be kiddin' - who would ever think of making a neighborhood?? the only thing that sells is mini-farms) and appraisal (how do you find comps for a cohousing community? Who's gonna buy these things?). So from the earliest conceptual discussions, we have included all three. All our mailings, meeting minutes, etc. go to a selected banker (whose bank is now signed on to finance the project), appraiser ( highly intelligent to begin with, he is now a more educated appraiser) and local officials. They know everything we're thinking, and they have all become "part owners" in the project. I don't want to paint too rosy a picture. The process is incredibly complex and there are always plenty of naysayers along the way. And in our case the most compelling aspect to the bankers and appraisers (if not for this we could not succeed) is that when construction begins every unit will be sold. This is the undeniable proof of the appeal of the development concept and the value of the real estate that will result. It's also one of the fundamental beauties of the cohousing concept: as the group of owner-developers forms and makes decisions about their future, they not only begin the process of forming the bonds of community, but they bring stability and predictability to the development process (what developer and banker wouldn't want to build a pre-sold development?) And the group ethos is persusaive: when a banker is skeptical about the idea of mixing subsidized housing and market housing (the only difference between the two being the subsidies and the incomes of the occupants) it's easy to justify by pointing to the market level buyers and saying, "Not only do they accept this, they created the concept and they are raising the subsidy funds." John Salmen says >I am still of the opinion that the best >projects are initiated and developed directly by the community involved. >The stumbling block has always been a lack of related skills and this >has doomed a lot of projects but for those that succeeded the >development of those skills within the affected community generally >resulted in the development of a stronger vision and community. Yes. Cohousers are the developers. They put the money on the table, create the vision, and make the decisions. What they lack is expertise, sufficient capital, and good decision-making training. The cohousing world is learning that to eliminate the stumbling blocks it's necessary to join the expertise and the buyers in a common venture. No new news, but here's a good model that encourages this kind of partnership. Another thing good development processes require is strong local ties. In our case, our 20+ year history/reputation in a specific locale is the currency which helps us open doors, pull down walls, and maneuver around the bumps in the road. I too, like Marc R., was impressed by Donella Meadows' piece in Whole Earth Review. She lists nine ways, in increasing order of effectiveness, to leverage change in systems. At the top of her list (least effective leverage point) is Numbers (manipulating numbers thru the use of taxes, incentives, etc). At the bottom (most effective leverage point) is The Mindset Out of which the System Arises (changing the thinking that underlies the system). She says, "People who manage to intervene in systems at the level of paradigm [mindset] hit a leverage point that totally transforms systems." She states the answer better than I can even ask the question. But that's it: how best to leverage, and do we spend too much time working at the least effective leverage points? Kathleen Holman's question about mortgages cuts right to this. Our mortgage system is based entirely on initial cost and short-lived buildings. Tom Bender, in a 1985 article, says, ". . if we want to talk about housing costs, the discussion should begin, and maybe end, with financing. Our home financing concepts are outdated, unaffordable, and unbearable. Houses built to last 400 years can shelter 15 or more generations before needing replacement. Housing built to last 400 years costs a little more to build. But each generation has to replace only 1/15th of its housing, so expenditures are 80-90% less than if each generation has to build new. Structures built for long life can afford a generosity of design that is largely missing in our homes." If we could get our bankers to encourage that kind of thinking, we'd make progress, wouldn't we? I know this kind of general discussion can get vague as it begins to drift, but I enjoy stepping back and asking broad questions. Especially with a group like this, because you get to hear what's knockin' at peoples' hearts. I hope others do. Thanks for your indulgence. The real question is, "Where is Buzz Burrell and what is he thinking?" John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 24 09:35:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA12700 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:35:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA10924 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:34:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12355; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:30:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:26:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12003 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11989 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:25:54 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id JwV08982; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:29:31 EST To: kholman@spiretech.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 08:39:37 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: GBLIST: MORTGAGES Message-ID: <19971224.084023.3862.0.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19971223124534.0079fda0@spiretech.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-4,6-16,18-62 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 927 Our experience here in South Texas is that if the appraiser does not recognize and understand the renewable/sustainable technology or system proposed or installed in the home (old or new) they will not attach any value to that technology. The implications are that it makes it difficult to obtain financing to purchase or declare a value to sell. There may be similar problems with potential buyers. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Tue, 23 Dec 1997 12:45:34 -0800 Kathleen Holman writes: >To add a new thread to Jean Gallagher's discussion about mortgages... > >What are everyone's experiences with how green building techniques >affect >the value of a home? Some of us here in Portland are trying to assess >how >buildings built "green" are perceived by appraisers, etc. If a home >is >built with better indoor air quality and natural or recycled >construction >materials, shouldn't it be worth more, financially speaking, than a >house >that is built less sustainably? > >Apparently, one of the problems that has been encountered in this >regard is >that no one seems to know the resale value of sustainable homes. >Which is >to say, most people that get homes built "green" to their >customization are >so happy with them, they never want to move. So their is no real gage >for >appraisers and those in the real estate market when it comes to the >value >of green homes. > >Has anyone else had similar experiences? This thread may seem a >little >extraneous to the usual discussion, but I truly believe that tangible >benefits like a higher resale values will really help sign the average >consumer on to green building practices... > >Kathleen Holman >Gretchen Vadnais Landscape Architect, L.L.C. >Portland, Oregon >e-mail: kholman@spiretech.com > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 24 11:06:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA15981 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:06:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28371 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:05:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14540; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 11:01:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:57:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14176 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from november.diac.com (root@diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14172 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 10:57:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.64.42.105] (p105.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.105]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA11423 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 16:02:17 GMT Message-Id: <199712241602.QAA11423@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Whats Next? Date: Wed, 24 Dec 97 09:04:08 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 928 Regarding community development, John Salmen wrote, in part: >The biggest problem is that the majority of housing is initiated by a >developer not by a community. A community may establish a development >plan within an area but these plans are usually compromised or eroded by >the actual developments that take place. What would be the process by >which a community could engender a community plan and then control the >design and implementation of that plan? Just a quick reminder: that process is called CoHousing. It's alive and well; over 25 built projects. Check it out: http://www.cohousing.org You may also want to check out the Eco-Village movement: http://www.gaia.org/ Both also have a List discussion, newsletter, conferences, and successful developed communities that attempt to directly address some of the concerns mentioned in the "Whats Next?" thread. Take Care! Buzz Burrell Boulder, CO (Geneva Community Project Manager) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 24 12:11:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19232 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:11:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA13423 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:10:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16339; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:05:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:00:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16074 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:00:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16070 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA29600 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 09:05:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 24 Dec 1997 09:04:14 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: VALUE To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA16071 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 929 Kathleen--re the Òadded valueÓ of green/sustainable. When I once asked a realtor what he thought our house was worth, he said: ÒTo be honest, a house is worth what it sells for.Ó Once again, the market controls. If other houses in the area--whether green or not--sell for an average of $100 per foot, then yours wonÕt likely sell for much more or less, whether itÕs built green or from oil-sludge blocks. On the other hand, I have a new friend in real estate who claims that more and more (new) realtors are aware, if not of sustainable building, of energy efficiency, and push it to their clients. WeÕll never get away from the need to educate. John Abrams--I think your approach is so absolutely right! Get a lot of people involved from the outset. Find the banker/lender out there who is willing to consider a new concept. (Most seem on a scale ranging from beady-eyed greed at one end to immovable conservatism on the other; if you have your ducks lined up, you might be better off with ole beady-eyes.) But IÕm having a hard time getting the idea of a 400 year house wrapped around me. Unless or until we reach some sort of technological stasis (and assuming we would WANT to), might we not better think of biodegradable homes? (Decomposition instead of Deconstruction?) I say this with only a little humor intended. And it brings me to another thought IÕve had: why not work for changes in county or rural building codes which would allow for not-for-resale building permits, so that people can experiment relatively cheaply with alternative building/energy systems? John and Buzz--I think co-housing makes a lot of sense for many reasons, for some people. And I hate to say it, but co-housing may go the way of the condo. Once the initial fervor of those involved has cooled, and half have divorced or moved on, will there be new people to take their places? If I were a lender, to tell the truth, IÕd be wary. But then, IÕve been told IÕm somewhere between a hermit and a sociopath. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 24 12:17:03 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19469 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:17:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA14583 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:16:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16691; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:11:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:07:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16423 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:07:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16418 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:07:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.3] (blf3.acadia.net [205.217.217.3]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA27934 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:12:06 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:10:14 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: SIPs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 930 >Hi David, > >You don't state the source of this info (granted, I didn't state mine >either). Recent testing sponsored by Agriboard by not yet released (for >obvious reasons) confirms what most of us suspected. The actual, tested >R-value of the thicker panel is R-18. > >It's important not to let wishful thinking get in the way of science here. >And not to let "Thermal-mass-enhanced R-value" be publicized as if it is >the real R-value. > >Nadav > Hi Nadav, My source (which I should have listed) was Agriboard itself, verbal communication about PRELIMINARY test results. Just goes to show that one should be sceptical of sales pitches! Thanks for the real story. -David ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 24 14:52:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA24798 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 14:52:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15948 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 14:51:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20008; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 14:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Dec 1997 14:42:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19727 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 14:42:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from server1.netpath.net (server1.netpath.net [205.139.153.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19723 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 14:42:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.27.39.151] (Pcorncrib.netpath.net [206.27.39.151]) by server1.netpath.net (8.8.5/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21203 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 14:46:45 -0500 X-Sender: cohn@rafiusa.org (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 12:53:18 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Gerry Cohn Subject: GBlist: Raising the pH of well water Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 931 We've recently moved onto an old farm on the clay soils of North Carolina and are having a bit of trouble with the well water. Blue-green stains are appearing on the new copper piping that we put in, and the water is developing a metallic taste. At the original test, the pH was 6.3. All metals were below the acceptable levels. My assumption was that we just needed to raise the pH a bit. We called a couple of water companies and they talked about acid-neutralizing filters, quoting us costs from $750 to $3500. One sent a rep out, who did some water tests and got a pH reading of 5.8, along with much higher iron levels than the original tests gave. I'm naturally a bit skeptical, as he was trying to sell us the equipment, as well. Is there a relatively inexpensive way to increase pH? I've read a bit about soda ash or tossing limestone chips in the well, but I can't find anyone who has taken this approach. Any ideas? -Gerry- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 24 15:54:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA26816 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:54:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA27149 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:53:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21336; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:48:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:44:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21102 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:44:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21096 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:44:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip29.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.48]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA82; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 16:02:45 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19971224155530.0072c580@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 15:55:30 -0500 To: Gerry Cohn , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Raising the pH of well water In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 932 >Is there a relatively inexpensive way to increase pH? I've read a bit about >soda ash or tossing limestone chips in the well, but I can't find anyone >who has taken this approach. Gerry: I'd suggest going to your local swimming pool equipment/toy store. They should have a DIY pH testing kit for relatively low bucks. A pH meter could run to high dollars, but color-keyed paper strips should be good enough for a checkout. Also, you may want to talk with your local health department, land office, and/or geological survey office. They sometimes run badly advertised freebie testing programs ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 24 17:26:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA29654 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:26:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA14072 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:25:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23240; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:20:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:16:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA22991 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:16:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA22987 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:16:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.23] (mke-1-7.binc.net [208.142.229.23]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA31108; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 16:20:55 -0600 Message-Id: <199712242220.QAA31108@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: SIP "creep" Date: Wed, 24 Dec 97 16:32:06 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "Patrick Pierquet" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 933 Patrick says: "So, Ithink creep IS an issue, if you're relying solely on OSB as your structural members." Aay, there's the rub. Panels don't call on OSB to be sole structural members. As I wrote in my previous post, the OSB are skins, which are laminated to an EPS foam core. The entire assembly acts as an I beam, structurally speaking. In an I beam, the top flange is in compression, while the bottom flange is in tension. The web (foam) depth serves to seperate the two flanges: the greater the seperation, the less likelihood of deflection. I have never seen any evidence of "OSB creep" having an effect on panel performance over time. I've spent time in the PFS testing facility in Madison, WI, and read bunches on how this stuff performs. If you have information to the contrary, please present it. But you should speak directly to the engineering of a panel assembly, before condemning its components. Thanks, Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 24 18:06:35 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA00984 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:06:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA22161 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:05:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA23939; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:01:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:57:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23704 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:57:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23700 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:57:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.62 (pm1-30.hoosier.net [206.106.67.62]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA12714 for ; Wed, 24 Dec 1997 18:01:44 -0500 Message-ID: <34A19384.24E4@bloomington.in.us> Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 17:58:13 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Discussion Subject: GBlist: RE: Mortgages Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 934 To throw in my two cents worth health-wise (as opposed to sustainability-wise), I've heard that houses of non-smokers sell faster than houses of smokers. It would seem that, even if the appraised values and selling prices are similar, a quicker sale means added value to the seller. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 25 23:46:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA02129 for ; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:46:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA15353 for ; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:45:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA15068; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:40:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:34:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA14682 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:34:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA14676 for ; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:34:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.20] (blf20.acadia.net [205.217.217.20]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA19188 for ; Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:38:55 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 23:37:04 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: VALUE Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 935 Jean Gallagher wrote: "But I'm having a hard time getting the idea of a 400 year house wrapped around me. Unless or until we reach some sort of technological stasis (and assuming we would WANT to), might we not better think of biodegradable homes? (Decomposition instead of Deconstruction?) I say this with only a little humor intended." One reason I think that financing structures are so important is because of the time element in buildings. Take a look at Stewart Brand's book, How Buildings Learn, for an excellent introduction to this (featuring John Abrams). Once you see buildings as ongoing and evolutionary, with potential lifetimes of 400 years or more, then it becomes interesting to change the flow of money away from interest - paid for the priviledge of having a "finished" building now - to small, constant sums spent on the gradual improvement and refinement of buildings over many, many years. This isn't the only approach. Simple, cheap buildings made of earth have been allowed to "biodegrade" in certain times and cultures. In sub-Saharan Africa, it was typical in many cultures for an earthen house to return to the earth after the death of its owner. But now we seem neither to care about longevity or biodegradeability, and that's very sad. Despite all our talk about technique, finance, leverage, etc., I'm left to wonder why we live in one of the very few cultures in history that does not consider its handiworks, including buildings, to be sacraments. Most traditional cultures believed that making a building was making a picture of the cosmos, and of the soul. Most tradtional cultures did not believe that there is a difference between fact and value. They didn't live in a Cartesian world. Maybe it's Christmas, but I wonder if we'll achieve sustainable human habitat without a different relationship to time - one that includes spirit. - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 26 09:34:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA23207 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 09:34:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA08994 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 09:33:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21509; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 09:29:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Dec 1997 09:23:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21277 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 09:23:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21273 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 09:23:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA23802; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 08:27:48 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 00055791; Fri, 26 Dec 97 08:17:07 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 08:26:03 -0600 Message-ID: <00055791.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #486 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, crkoehn@mailbag.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="RFC822 message headers" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Content-Disposition: inline; filename="RFC822 message headers" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 936 Hi Chris - I'm not "condemning" anyone, just raising the issue. I fully understand the I-beam idea, but this does nothing to solve the issue of creep. EPS foam ALSO exhibits this phenomenon. Here's an excerpt from a Progressive Architecture article..... Technics: roofs for use. (includes related information on the weight of trees, and insulation value of soil on roofs) Labs, Kenneth Progressive Architecture, v71, n7, p36(7) July, 1990 ISSN: 0033-0752 LANGUAGE: ENGLISH ... less than 5 percent absorption, to ensure long-term durability to freeze-thaw cycling and other weathering stresses. Pedestals normally bear on high-density, extruded polystyrene foam insulation. Because the insulation creeps under sustained loads, a factor of safety of 3 for static and 5 for dynamic loads is recommended. Ruggiero prefers 40 to 60 psi insulation... You mentioned "deflection", but again, deflection is not the issue...it is an entirely different phenomenon than creep, which is a time-dependant characteristic..."deflection" occurs immediately, when the load is applied; "creep" occurs very slowly over time, under conditions of constant load(ie, you can't "see" creep occurring, with the naked eye.). A recent Japanese study offers evidence that creep IS an issue with SIP's(the author's translation is a bit rough, but you get the idea)..... The system that deterioration of wooden building is evaluated. MIYAMURA MASASHI (1); NAKAJIMA SHIRO (1); SATO MASATOSHI (1) (1) Minist. of Constr. Build. Res. Inst. Kenchiku Kenkyujo Nenpo( Annual Report of BRI ), 1996, VOL.1995, PAGE.50-53 JOURNAL NUMBER: G0308AAP ISSN NO: 0286-4622 LANGUAGE: Japanese COUNTRY OF PUBLICATION: Japan ABSTRACT: This study is bending creep-test of panel used for wooden dwelling. This composite panel is composed by OSB and EPS. Dimension of specimen is 600*2,700mm. Thickness of panel is 3 kinds of 4 8 10 inch. 4inch and 8inch panel is used for roof, and 10inch is used for floor. Dead load of 4inch and 8inch panel is 50 kg/m2, and 10inch is 150kg/m2. The site that established specimen is 3 places. According to the result of a test, it was judged composite panel suffering effect remarkably to environment of surroundings. (author abst.) Hope this helps. - Patrick Pierquet ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Date: Wed, 24 Dec 97 16:32:06 -0000 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn Subject: Re: GBlist: SIP "creep" Patrick says: "So, Ithink creep IS an issue, if you're relying solely on OSB as your structural members." Aay, there's the rub. Panels don't call on OSB to be sole structural members. As I wrote in my previous post, the OSB are skins, which are laminated to an EPS foam core. The entire assembly acts as an I beam, structurally speaking. In an I beam, the top flange is in compression, while the bottom flange is in tension. The web (foam) depth serves to seperate the two flanges: the greater the seperation, the less likelihood of deflection. I have never seen any evidence of "OSB creep" having an effect on panel performance over time. I've spent time in the PFS testing facility in Madison, WI, and read bunches on how this stuff performs. If you have information to the contrary, please present it. But you should speak directly to the engineering of a panel assembly, before condemning its components. Thanks, Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 26 10:26:21 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA24661 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:26:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA16799 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:25:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22637; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:20:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:16:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22399 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:16:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.pair.com (relay1.pair.com [209.68.1.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22395 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:16:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from cpcug.org.cpcug.org (damascus-md-43.idsonline.com [209.8.42.43]) by relay.pair.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA00730 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:11:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19971226100726.006a0b9c@scgcorp.com> X-Sender: joeltodd@scgcorp.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:07:26 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Joel Todd Subject: GBlist: the future, financing, etc Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 937 Several participants have hit on a very important topic--bringing all of those involved in buildings into thinking greener. I attended a workshop in Oslo 2 years ago that included bankers/mortgage lenders, real estate folks (residential sales, commercial leasing), developers, architects, builders, as well as government officials and academic researchers involved in developing green building assessment tools. This workshop was part of a series that was intended to get everyone talking and learning. It seemed like a good process--maybe something for us to think about when we are planning national conferences and local meetings. City planners and transportation planners would also be relevant. While this would not bring about the major shifts in lifestyle that have been suggested as essential for sustainability, it might be a step in bringing more allies into the effort. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Joel Ann Todd Vice-President The Scientific Consulting Group, Inc. 656 Quince Orchard Road, #210 Gaithersburg, MD 20878-1409 Tel: (301) 670-4990 Fax: (301) 670-3815 Email: joeltodd@cpcug.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 26 10:38:42 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA24752 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:38:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA19149 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:37:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23028; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:33:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:28:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22775 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@NS2.VINEYARD.NET [204.17.195.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22771 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:28:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01089 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 10:33:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from asy2.vineyard.net(199.232.92.42) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma000887; Fri Dec 26 10:32:52 1997 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:37:26 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: VALUE Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 938 Well put, David. Fact is, we ARE making bio-degradable buildings (partially, anyway). Unfortunately, the part that bio-degrades is not intended to, and what's left is a lot of useless residue. You said, >Maybe it's Christmas, but I wonder if we'll achieve sustainable human >habitat without a different relationship to time - one that includes >spirit. Ain't it the truth! We need a whole different relationship to both - time and spirit. We can probably take care of that in '98, right? At worst, before the milennium. I wish us all good luck. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 26 11:28:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA25136 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:28:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA29614 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:27:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24131; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:23:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:19:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23876 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:19:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheetah.pacinfo.com (root@cheetah.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23872 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:19:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (p04.s2.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.186]) by cheetah.pacinfo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02639 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 08:23:47 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Conversation with last message X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Clan Handley" Subject: Re: GBlist: VALUE Date: Fri, 26 Dec 97 08:20:20 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id LAA23873 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 939 > Despite all our talk about technique, finance, leverage, etc., I'm left to > wonder why we live in one of the very few cultures in history that does not > consider its handiworks, including buildings, to be sacraments. Most > traditional cultures believed that making a building was making a picture > of the cosmos, and of the soul. Most tradtional cultures did not believe > that there is a difference between fact and value. They didn't live in a > Cartesian world. "Ishmael" by Daniel Quinn offers a very interesting perspective on why our culture views the world in a fundamentally different way from "traditional" cultures. This book also relates to some of the recent comments about paradigm shifts and leverage points. I recommend the book to anyone interested in these ideas. Barbara http://www.angelfire.com/or/ishmael Ishmael -- Resources for Further Study ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 26 12:08:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25469 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:08:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA08472 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:08:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26151; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 12:03:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:59:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25437 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:58:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from netmgr.cso.niu.edu (netmgr.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25433 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:58:46 -0500 (EST) From: sfahey@w3pipe.com Received: from banjo (banjo.cgs.niu.edu [131.156.47.168]) by netmgr.cso.niu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA00078 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 11:03:28 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199712261703.LAA00078@netmgr.cso.niu.edu> Date: Tue, 23 Dec 97 13:36:56 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <00055617.1762@us.teltech.com> Subject: GBlist: SIPs, creep, and design X-Mailer: MR/2 Internet Cruiser Edition for OS/2 v1.40 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 940 Keep up the good review of SIPs and other alternative building materials. I'm learning a lot. Has anyone taken a look at the SIPs made by EaglePanel? These panels have studs built into the panel. The have a web page at http://www.eaglepanelsystems.com and a description of their panels at http://www.eaglepanelsystems.com/SIP.html. Sean Fahey DeKalb IL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 26 16:33:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA27585 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:33:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA03103 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:32:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02107; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:27:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:22:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA01844 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:22:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01840 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 16:22:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA09284 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 13:27:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 26 Dec 1997 13:26:21 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: ISHMAEL,400 YEAR HOUSES To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA01841 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 941 All--The mention of ÒIshmaelÓ sends a pain through an aching tooth for me. It--to me--is one of those books thatÕs fine if you like formulaic, simple-minded novels full of contrived conversations. When someone recommends a book to me, I always want to ask for their top 5 list. If ÒIsmaelÓ is there, I betcha ÒFountainheadÓ ainÕt far behind. David--Since I donÕt have a copy of How Buildings Learn handy, I wonder if you could summarize the main point(s). You seem to suggest that the book (or you) takes the position that a house will (or should) only be paid for once. If that were the case--take houses passed down in the same family, for instance--then your position makes sense. In the usual way of things, though, a house is resold every 5.3 years (or whatever the current figure is), and each new owner carries the burden not only of the first mortgage but any improvements. Sometimes, even though improvements are desirable (better insulation,double pane windows, etc.), the payback is much longer than 5.3 yea rs. And you have the problem of neighborhoods going down the drain, for any number of reasons. If you have a house that is only 30 years old, you could be in big trouble. Do you have inside information that suggests a change? I say, once again, that if technology--and for that matter sociology--were to reach a stasis (no new developments in efficiency), then 400 year houses might make more sense. I think the Òsimple, cheap earthen homes of the subSahara" you casually mention are among the most beautiful objects human beings have ever produced. The mud/plaster homes and grainaries and places of worship are so beautiful and perfectly adapted that they take my breath away. (IÕll be happy to give book references to anyone.) And all thatÕs been needed to keep them intact is the occasional communal replastering, when villagers came together to gossip and repair each otherÕs homes. And I often wish we lived in such a culture. We all wish it, I guess, from time to time. (Just like I prefer ÒWalden PondÓ to ÒIshmaelÓ.) But we donÕt and never have and canÕt. We are smack in the middle of a changing, mobile, sociologically-challenged culture. But then I come to the part where you talk about structures being an image of the cosmos and the soul. And I donÕt want to argue any more. However we do it, whatever mortgages we employ, whether long- or short-term houses, we should think of our homes, as we do our partners, as soulmates. Jean Northern California ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 26 19:49:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA29359 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 19:49:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA08512 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 19:48:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05703; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 19:43:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Dec 1997 19:39:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05468 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 19:39:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05463 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 19:39:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id TAN11558; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 19:43:29 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 15:41:39 -0900 Message-ID: <19971226.154207.6422.1.woodeneagle@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,3-4,6-7,22-23,35-36,43-44,51-52,59-60,66-71 From: woodeneagle@juno.com (R. Scott Waterman) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 942 Thanks for all of you who have contributed to this thread...It has been one of the more interesting in a series of interesting threads on the list. What a great group of thinkers and writers! How do you get developers to change their practices? Time, energy and a LOT of hard work. Educate, Educate, Educate. People are concerned with are they going to get the money to qualify. I sold real estate for a few years, and while I did have some discriminating buyers, I found a lot of people were so worried about qualifying for a house they wanted, they paid very little attention to potential defects that were not readily apparent. This even included water stains indicating roof leaks, bowed flooring, and high utility bills. They had problems with their credit history, or loans not reported, and they were grateful to get a loan to buy ANY house. They felt like they were receiving some great thing they were not entitled to, rather than being a customer. The education process begins with the consumer. They have no idea what their choices are. Virtually anyone given the choice of a slapdash tract home for $100,000, or a higher quality home with adequate insulation, better windows, a healthy, safe heating system for $105,000 would make the choice for the better home, if they knew the consequences of the inferior practices. Many people like McDonalds, not because it is great food, but because it is fast and cheap and requires little effort on their part. Others will not settle for less than recipes made from all fresh ingredients every time they eat, and are willing to take the time to shop and prepare such items. So, for the purposes of this discussion, I think there are separate groups that have different concerns. There are relatively few owner builders today who actually pick up their tool belt and do the work. There are a few more who work closely with their contractors and supervise quality control and selection of materials. There are many who buy homes already constructed, with perhaps a choice of carpet or cabinets, and many more who sign papers and move in on fully completed homes, perhaps never even knowing who the builder was. I believe ther is a place for the Toyota brand of housing manufacture. Mobile homes serve as shelter for over 7 million families in the United States, and over half of those were built prior to 1976, which was the year HUD demanded a higher standard of manufacturing. If there were affordable alternatives as Steve O. Describes, many of the families buying low cost units would have healthier, safer, more environmentally friendly housing than their current counterparts. Each of these groups has different concerns when it comes to choosing their home. For the majority, those who come into the process late in construction or after it is finished, the education has to be twofold, part of the education effort must go the builder/developer, and part to educate consumers that there are better choices. A developer will not let many homes stand vacant before deciding to serve what the customers want, at any price. I work for a state housing finance agency, and we have mortgage rate discounts for energy efficient homes. Buyers can get up to 1.5% off their rate if they build to the top standard, where gas heat is not available, or .75% where it is. (Gas is really cheap) Even though this can save the consumer thousands of dollars over the life of the loan, (over $23,000 on a $130,000 home) some builders are attempting to quash efforts to enact a higher energy standard. When we first embarked on an energy rating program, appraisers were key players. They needed education to recognize the additional value of the EE improvements. Realtors also played a major role, in influencing buyers decisions. The mortgage lenders gave higher ratios of debt to income, recognizing that lower energy bills made higher house payments more affordable. Keep up the discussion....there is a lot of value here. Scott Waterman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 26 22:16:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA01221 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:16:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA06665 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:16:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA08378; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:11:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:06:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08098 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:06:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.177]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08093 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:06:23 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: <7e9109c2.34a46df4@aol.com> Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:54:42 EST To: woodeneagle@JUNO.COM, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: mortgage discounts Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 943 In a message dated 97-12-26 19:47:09 EST, you write: << I work for a state housing finance agency, and we have mortgage rate discounts for energy efficient homes. Buyers can get up to 1.5% off their rate if they build to the top standard, where gas heat is not available, or .75% where it is. (Gas is really cheap) Even though this can save the consumer thousands of dollars over the life of the loan, (over $23,000 on a $130,000 home) some builders are attempting to quash efforts to enact a higher energy standard. When we first embarked on an energy rating program, appraisers were key players. They needed education to recognize the additional value of the EE improvements. Realtors also played a major role, in influencing buyers decisions. The mortgage lenders gave higher ratios of debt to income, recognizing that lower energy bills made higher house payments more affordable. >> Scott: Which state do you work for? Are there are any other states doing what you are doing? Is there much consumer education going on? Sounds like a great program but I wonder whether it's widely known. Anybody else know of similar state programs? How do you calculate return or value to the state? Thanks!, Phil Bailey SustainAbility Fredericksburg, Va ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 26 22:25:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA01265 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:24:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA08391 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:24:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA08716; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:19:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:15:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08486 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:15:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08482 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:15:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.2] (blf2.acadia.net [205.217.217.2]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA19737 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:19:59 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 22:18:08 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Time and Finance Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 944 Dear Jean and Others, How Buildings Learn is such a good book that I'd rather urge you to read it than attempt what would be an inadequate summary. Its subject is architecture and time, and it's full of rich, thought-provoking insights. Why I think the book is relevant to this thread: finance is by definition about time, and there are obstacles in present financial structures to sustainable building. If I implied that a building should only be paid for once, sorry. What I meant to say is that financing a building involves a stream of money over time. If a bank demands that a building be built "complete" at once, it creates incentives for cheap first costs, but also requires so much initial capital that money flows towards banks, not toward a gradual improvement of the structure over time. Other difficulties arise when those who judge the credit-worthiness of a project are ignorant about thr rational economic returns of many Green building techniques. Financiers have to balance return on investment with risk minimization. Conventional usually means less risky to them, unless someone shows them otherwise - which is why its great that John Abrams is bringing bankers and developers into his co-housing project from the start. My understanding is that the average turnover rate of a U.S. home is now a little short of 12 years, not 5.3. My source is a recent newspaper article. A payback period of less than 12 years is well within the range of many Green building practices. Heck, most people don't even do the stuff that pays back in 5 years! Amory Lovins has pointed out that payback periods improve if you go for big savings. For example, it's often cheaper to insulate to very high levels (R30 to 40 walls, R50 to 60 roof (English units) in New England) than "moderate" insulation, because you can pay for the superinsulation by drastically downsizing the heating system. You can get great energy performance with instant payback! The trouble is, try convincing a banker to finance a house with 12 inch thick walls, a 16 inch thick roof, and no central heating system - just a Monitor or a fan coil connected to the water heater, etc. Try convincing a realtor that such a house has resale value, and try getting an appraiser to find a "comparable" in the neighborhood. That's why this is a great discussion - because it's making us face up to where the real power to change things is - it's in changing the mental models of key players in the system - not just the designers and builders, but also the end users, developers, code officers, financiers, appraisers and real-estate agents. Well, sorry for another long-winded one. - David Foley P.S.: Haven't read Ishmael. It's pretty hard to write a good paradigm-shattering book. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 27 01:01:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA03671 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 01:01:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA10817 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 01:00:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA11729; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:55:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:51:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11490 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:51:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11486 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 00:51:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA10926 for ; Fri, 26 Dec 1997 21:56:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 26 Dec 1997 21:55:24 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: FINANCE To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id AAA11487 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 945 David--You are such a nice guy, obviousy, that I hate to keep questioning what you say, but, on the other hand, so much of what you say is SO GENERAL as to be, for me at least, meaningless. For instance: Òfinance is by definition about time.Ó Yes, and so is death. And taxes, and so forth. Finance, it seems to me, is about time and money and the perceived value of both. And you acknowledge this, but then say that banks demand Òcheap first costs,Ó followed by Òmoney flowing toward banks and not toward continued improvements.Ó ItÕs so smooth that one might forget that the bank is not your loving, trusting parent. Maybe it should be, or maybe that is how, IN AN IDEAL WORLD, the relationship should be defined, but, as it is, there is a source of capital on the one side and a need for capital on the other. IÕm trying to figure out how you are going to turn an abstract relationship into a personal relationship. Possibly with JohnÕs cohousing? And I will defer to anyone else who can prove otherwise, but my STRONG feeling is that average home ownership is far less than 12 years, and closer to 5-6 years. (But maybe IÕm remembering average ÒmoveÓ time, which includes many renters?) But be that as it may, I guess IÕm a bit irritated by the sort of apple pie attitude that, oh well, we just spend megadollars retrofitting this and that, and, oh, by the way, voila, 11 years later we reap the small rewards! Why not be honest and say at the outset that, unless you are building now and smart, savings will be small and deferred. And, at this point, you cannot expect a financial institution to be your lover. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 27 08:37:44 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA09897 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:37:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA14608 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:36:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA18533; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:29:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:25:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA18345 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:25:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA18341 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:25:09 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: <8d55d1c0.34a50287@aol.com> Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 08:28:36 EST To: jean_gallagher@macgate.csuchico.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: FINANCE Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 946 In a message dated 97-12-27 01:00:23 EST, you write: << But be that as it may, I guess IÕm a bit irritated by the sort of apple pie attitude that, oh well, we just spend megadollars retrofitting this and that, and, oh, by the way, voila, 11 years later we reap the small rewards! >> While I view financial institutions as strictly that, I think we all agree that they need education along with everyone else and that's essentially what David was saying. I do take some issue with the above statement as I don't see it costing megadollars to get small rewards. Sure, there's always the exception but it's not the rule. On the contrary, there are at least a dozen items anyone can do, at relatively low cost and have an ROI within a year or two at most. For instance, most people think a 60 cent 60 watt lightbulb is cheaper than the $9 compact fluorescent. Taking 5 years as the standard stay in a house (plus people could take the compacts with them), the 60 cent 60 watt light bulb is tremendously more expensive. I haven't done the exact math but I'm sure EPA's Green Lights program has. How about replacing a hot water heater? Replace it with an on demand unit costing almost twice as much up front seems stupid but it's not. You're paid back well within 2 years and then you're saving money forever. Doing many things when building is cheaper but a homeowner's loan is also viable. How about materials? Sure, the plastic lumber deck is more expensive but there's no staining, no water repellent stuff to put on and very little maintenance period. Maintenance time for the homeowner is a commodity too. How about cheap contracter's carpeting vs. recycled content. The recycled has a thicker pile and lasts longer. More than most of the time, the cheap initial carpeting shows significant traffic pattern and wear within 1-2 years! We have 3 kids and ours only started to show a pattern in its 4th year. In summary, in a standard housing development, with houses being built about the same time, I spent about $2,000 more than my neighbors (and I really wish I had known more at the time and done more) and have been saving between $30-50/month with 1.5 more kids. I'm just offering an opinion based on experience and research. I'm sure we can agree that cost and performance are critical issues and that if we have that in a recycled or energy efficient or other green product, why isn't it the standard in the building community and why don't banks pay more attention and offer a lower rate. I think the answer lies partly in the rather astonishing lack of education in the financial and construction community. I'll stop here before I get on my rant and rave about developers and all that. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 27 13:28:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA00548 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:28:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA08199 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:27:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23700; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:21:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:17:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23379 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:16:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23375 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:16:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA11931 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:22:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 27 Dec 1997 10:21:08 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: GINGERBREAD HOMES To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA23376 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 947 John--It would be nice if the rest of us knew what god-like qualities it took to make a home Òbeautiful, humane, well-proportioned, easy to maintain, and easy to alter,Ó and Òmade from brick or stone or wood or ferrocementÓ. My word! A simple formula that anyone can follow to insure that his/her dream will be loved and accepted by everyone, forever! Who do you think might best present this data to the world? Ted Koppel? Hugh Downs? Barbara Wawa? Or perhaps Jesus Christ Himself? I would like for conditions and attitudes to change, but they will not as long as a kind of evangelistic (and unselfcorrecting) line is espoused by those of us who think differently. And I donÕt see that a kind of mantra chanted in behalf of beauty or humanity is going to change the equation. I would rather see rebuttals like PbsustainÕs, where we can at least debate/analyze the alternatives. (And it shuts my big mouth for awhile, as I ponder the information.) Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 27 14:24:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA25454 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:24:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA19607 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:23:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24896; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:18:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:14:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24647 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:14:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24643 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:14:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA12111 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:19:39 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 27 Dec 1997 11:18:46 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: WATER HEATERS, ETC. To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id OAA24644 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 948 Jason--I wish you would tell me/us where objective data is about stuff like this! A study showing that (for instance) house A, with 7 year old gas (or electric) water heater took x dollars per month to heat the required water, BUT, after the installation of (Bosch or brand x) tankless water heater, the cost for heating water dropped to y.) I don't want to be overly picky, but I do want to see facts. When we recently added a bathroom, for instance, we learned of a system that constantly recirculates hot water. Supposedly, it not only keeps hot water instantly available, but saves water from going down the drain. You can put the recirculating water on a timer or a thermostat. But I asked around town and searched the internet for a study showing a before/after comparison. Or any other factual comparison. I didn't find any, so chose not to spend the extra money. And then there's the GFX system, which I learned about on these pages. It sounds good, but does it really work? That is, do the savings-in-energy justify the cost and/or energy-expenditure? Or another, completely unrelated example. (Technology, but not energy.) We got a new VCR for Christmas, with VCR+ programming. To tape a program, just put in the 5-6-7-8 number in the TV Guide. Great, but, for some reason, when I put either of the two numbers listed for Victory Garden, the review shows that I have chosen channel 11 when, in fact, PBS here is channel 9. It's one of those maddening glitches so common now. And you don't have to have half a brain to know that ALL new technological advances are subject to shake-outs. To me, it comes to this: I would rather be "green" than not (and wouldn't mind spending a little more), but I don't see falling victim to the latest scam, or just misguided but well-intentioned technological so-called ADVANCE. I LOVE hearing of deck lumber made from recycled plastic bottles, but where is the Consumer Report? (Or the equivalent.) I don't want to hear just fervor; I want information. And I don't think I'm a minority. I think (hope) there are many others out there. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 27 14:48:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA06802 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:48:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA24754 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:47:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA16705; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:42:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:38:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA06793 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:38:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06542 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:38:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-12.topher.net [208.199.183.218]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA19464 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:32:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 13:32:37 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199712271932.NAA19464@mail.topher.net> X-Sender: ewestbrook@mail.topher.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Elena Westbrook Subject: Re: GBlist: FINANCE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id OAA06744 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 949 Jean wrote: ><< But be that as it may, I guess IÕm a bit irritated by the sort of apple pie > attitude that, oh well, we just spend megadollars retrofitting this and that, > and, oh, by the way, voila, 11 years later we reap the small rewards! > >> And "PBSustain" responded: >While I view financial institutions as strictly that, I think we all agree >that they need education along with everyone else and that's essentially what >David was saying. I do take some issue with the above statement as I don't see >it costing megadollars to get small rewards. In America, we are taught to value short-term monetary rewards and paybacks. That's what bankers do, too. And developers. And contractors. And uneducated buyers who just want to get into an attractive house. The problem is, that's not what green building is all about. It's not about short-term rewards, although sometimes we get those, too. (Like PB, our house saved money the very first month because we save more in electricity charges than we pay in amortized capital investment.) Green building, and green living, are about thinking ahead to the damages and benefits we leave our grandchildren. The Iroquois planned their actions by their effect on the seventh generation, and that's the mindset we need to get back to. That's why we've had this discussion recently about 400-year houses. It's why _Ishmael_ came up: not because of its good writing, but because of what it had to say about assumptions we make that are so ingrained we don't even know they're assumptions. Maybe we're not the culmination of evolution, but just one tiny piece of the infinite whole. Maybe we should build houses to last and not burden the environment, not because we save money doing it -- although we do, as Amory Lovins demonstrates over and over again -- but because to build that way makes an investment in the future. And now, Jean, you might rightly point out that we still have to pay for those houses in a world of bankers. Okay, let's teach them about some of these less-obvious but very real ways that green building benefits the homeowner and lender. Show them how building an efficient shell allows us to size down the HVAC unit; show them how that smaller, more efficient unit saves money every month. Don't expect the bankers to be your friends or parents. Show them how good building practices benefit them, too. Not every banker will listen; find one who will. And while she's listening, stretch her mind a little. Plant the seed of an idea that we should think more than five years ahead. And maybe in the long run we'll all win. Either that, or do the planet a favor and destroy the species that's causing so much trouble. --Elena Westbrook from Z Budapest: "I'm not fighting to save the earth out of altruism. I'm fighting to save myself! The earth can take care of itself. It's the human race who is really in danger of being destroyed." P.S. Jean has some of the payback data from our house. If anyone else is interested, please feel free to ask or check out the Four Cedars web site: . The main driver for our purchase decisions has been, and will continue to be, an item's total cost over its expected lifetime. Luckily, Paul's favorite thing in the world is playing with spreadsheets. For example, we decided on the Staber horiz-axis washer (remember that discussion?), even though we have solar water heating and always use less than the minimum billed amount of water, because the savings in detergent over 15 years was enough to bring the total operating costs of the Staber and a conventional washer close together. ---Elena Westbrook, ELS WordWright Communications EWestbrook@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 27 14:56:09 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA10425 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:56:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA26418 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:55:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05048; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:50:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:46:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25754 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:46:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25679 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:46:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA12248 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 11:51:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 27 Dec 1997 11:50:57 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: "FOLK" ARCHITECTURE To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id OAA25706 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 950 Wayne, and others--here are the books I know about; if you know about or find others, please post. Alain Cheneviere: Vanishing Tribes Rene Gardi: Indigenous African Architecture Enrico Guidoni: Primitive Architecture Charles Jencks: Meaning In Architecture Paul Oliver: Shelter in Africa " " Shelter, Sign & Symbol B. Rudofsky: Architecture Without Architects Suzanne Slesin: Indian Style Tito Spini: Togu Na There are homes in these books that make me weep with joy to see. But I don't know that any of them--or anything like them--would make sense where any of us live. I look at them as I do works of art. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 27 18:28:29 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA22482 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:28:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA09331 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:27:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03759; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:18:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03449 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:18:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03441 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:18:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5.carleton.ca [134.117.136.25]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v2.01) with ESMTP id SAA14841; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:22:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id SAA17474; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:22:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 18:22:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712272322.SAA17474@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: bfoster@bendnet.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Ventilation (was re: Insulsafe III) Cc: dfugler@cmhc-schl.gc.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 951 on Sat Dec 27 1997 bfoster@bendnet.com ("Bob Foster") wrote: Re: Attic Ventilation (was re: Insulsafe III) > This reference (to CMHC study) makes me feel that I can get > a better insulated house and not have to worry about > moisture problems. If I can fill the cavity all the way to > the top, I think I can get about R-44 instead of R-38 > which I'd get with the roof ventilated. Hello Bob; As with any generalisations, there will be exceptions. And, as is usually the case with assumptions, there is always the chance that there will be results different from the intended ones. I ass-u-me-d that interested parties would have a look at the full report. I've not yet seen it so I'm not aware of the roof types or the levels of air-tightness that were looked at in the study. FWIW, in the past whenever I have designed a vaulted roof, I've used parallel chord trusses (usually jigged and site-built, using plywood gussets with EPS spacers, rather than solid lumber web members) and allow for a 6" ventilation space over the insulation. In most instances, 24" deep trusses are sufficient. On the underside of the trussed rafters, before any partitions are built, I usually install a 6 mil poly sheet (from 20 ft wide rolls to minimise the number of joints) with doubled, fold-locked seams, acoustic sealant wrapped in the fold, joints clamped with battens to framing members. 2x2 furring is run on the underside of the poly to provide a wiring chase, and the spaces between the furring are then fitted with EPS (ripped on a table saw, 1/8" oversize in width), to restrict/minimise any movement of the poly sheet. Boxes for light fixtures are placed inside of a framed/drywalled armature attached to the furring, to provide an anchorage point which allows the fixture to hang from a horizontal plane rather than one that follows the slope of the ceiling. All of the above is an attempt to ensure the integrity/continuity of the air/vapour barrier membrane (obviously not an ADA). Considering that the incremental cost of allowing for a ventilation space is negligible when using parallel chord trusses, I will continue to do so, in recognition of the fact that despite our best intentions, $#!+ happens. In your case, where the rafter depth appears to be very limited, I would tend to maintain the vent space and add the insulation on the underside of the rafters. (The loss of a few inches thickness on the interior volume of a vaulted ceiling should be of no consequence, assuming that there is not a T&G roof deck in place. I have appended some notes from Don (the project officer for the CMHC report) below: ================================================================= on Mon Dec 22 1997 dfugler@cmhc-schl.gc.ca (Don Fugler) wrote: > I have no problem with a sealed, vaulted ceiling cavity as > long as the interior air barrier details are excellent. > Throw in pot lights or other electrical wiring and I would > prefer a good vented design. and > The open or trussed attic is pretty forgiving with most > levels of construction. A vaulted ceiling has less room for > error, less moisture storage, less incidental leakage, less > interconnectivity of spaces. The same lousy ceiling that > will get a vaulted roof in trouble may not have the same > effect on a big attic. =================================================================== -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 27 20:22:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA16989 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:22:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA00623 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:21:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA06331; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:16:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:12:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA06042 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:12:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06038 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:12:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA13081 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 17:18:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 27 Dec 1997 17:16:38 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: GREENBUILDING To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id UAA06039 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 952 All--It seems obvious--especially in the note from "phil''--that I am now perceived as some sort of retrogrundge. I guess you never know what will happen when you ask a few simple questions. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 27 21:04:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA05861 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:04:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA09371 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 21:03:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA07625; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:59:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:55:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA07417 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:55:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA07413 for ; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:55:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.25.64.210] (usr2a14.rut.sover.net [206.25.64.210]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA06192; Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:59:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 20:59:48 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: "Jean Gallagher" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: "FOLK" ARCHITECTURE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id UAA07414 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 953 I recently got this announement, which might be of interest. You'd have to be either quite wealthy, or have access to a good architecture library to see it, though. >Paul Oliver (ed.) >THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF VERNACULAR ARCHITECTURE OF THE WORLD >219 x 276 mm; ca. 2'500 pp. 1'700 halftones, 1'000 line drawings, 80 maps >ISBN: 0-521-56422-0 >3 volumes hardback £ 695.-- / $ 900.- >___________________________________________________________ > >For more informations (contents of vol. 1-3) see the site of Cambridge >University Press: >http://www.cup.org/Books/oliver/oliver.html >Using PDF format (Adobe Acrobat), you can also download a copy of the >leaflet distributed by Cambridge University Press: >http://home.worldcom.ch/~negenter (see file "Reviews") There's also a nice new title from Chelsea Green called _A Shelter Sketchbook: Timeless Building Solutions_ by John S. Taylor. A little book, full of nice drawings of indigenous architecture. Nadav Environmental Building News At 11:50 AM -0700 12/27/97, Jean Gallagher wrote: >Wayne, and others--here are the books I know about; if you know about or find >others, please post. > >Alain Cheneviere: Vanishing Tribes >Rene Gardi: Indigenous African Architecture >Enrico Guidoni: Primitive Architecture >Charles Jencks: Meaning In Architecture >Paul Oliver: Shelter in Africa > " " Shelter, Sign & Symbol >B. Rudofsky: Architecture Without Architects >Suzanne Slesin: Indian Style >Tito Spini: Togu Na > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 28 10:15:47 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA17030 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:15:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA18348 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:14:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06517; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:10:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:04:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06221 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:04:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.170]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06217 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:04:35 -0500 (EST) From: Marcoplos Message-ID: <73d57dec.34a66b5b@aol.com> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:08:08 EST To: jean_gallagher@macgate.csuchico.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: "FOLK" ARCHITECTURE Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 954 Another for the list: "A Shelter Sletchbook - Timeless Building Solutions" by John Taylor Full of sketches of building details from around the world - excellent browsable, quick visual intake style. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 28 10:42:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA24968 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:42:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA23279 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07272; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:37:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:33:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07067 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:33:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.177]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07063 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:33:11 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1 Message-ID: <57e1bfde.34a67212@aol.com> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 10:36:48 EST To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Time and Finance Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 955 In a message dated 97-12-26 22:23:05 EST, you write: << My understanding is that the average turnover rate of a U.S. home is now a little short of 12 years, not 5.3. My source is a recent newspaper article. A payback period of less than 12 years is well within the range of many Green building practices. Heck, most people don't even do the stuff that pays back in 5 years! >> Confirming, the nation's largest title insurance company recently reported 11.7 years as the national average "turnover" rate. The values ranged from less tyhan 6 in some states to more than 21 in others. Trying to find the report and will cite to the list. Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 28 11:10:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03972 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:10:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28725 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:09:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08068; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:04:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:01:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07788 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:00:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07784 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:00:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sa28.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.157]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA15017 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:06:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34A677D8.7A7F@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:01:28 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: GREENBUILDING Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 956 Jean Gallagher wrote: > > All--It seems obvious--especially in the note from "phil''--that I am now > perceived as some sort of retrogrundge. I guess you never know what will > happen when you ask a few simple questions. > > Jean Jean, I did not receive any post from Phil, so I don't know what the issues were for him, I will say that for myself I have no problem with you critique of the lack of documentation shown on these posts. I am very interested in the data relevent to these threads and to often find it missing. I would also like to see a much more economic use of quoted material in responses, I have already seen the original, I just want the critical quotes, anything more is simply redundant. This could be a fine venue for discussion of appropriate technology, if it is going to evolve into soap box for mouthing platitudes and useless green jargon, then it misses the point. Your requests for documentation are exactly to the point, if we can't back up the statements we make in public, then we do the entire process a disservice. Perhaps your arguements came off a little too personal, always an issue in this type of medium. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 28 11:19:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA05934 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA00241 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:18:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08487; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:13:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:09:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08209 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:09:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08204 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:09:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sa28.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.157]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA16497 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:14:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34A679E0.4D18@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 11:10:08 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Attic Ventilation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 957 Robert W. Tom wrote: > > on Sat Dec 27 1997 > bfoster@bendnet.com ("Bob Foster") wrote: > Re: Attic Ventilation (was re: Insulsafe III) > > > This reference (to CMHC study) makes me feel that I can get > > a better insulated house and not have to worry about > > moisture problems. If I can fill the cavity all the way to > > the top, I think I can get about R-44 instead of R-38 > > which I'd get with the roof ventilated. Having been an insulation contractor, I would never forgo proper venting, especially with fiberglass, perhaps with some foams. The notion that fiberglass does not absorb moisture is only half of the answer, the problem is condensation on the bottom of the roof strata and while 'glass may not technically absorb moisture into the fiber itself, my experience is that it can hold a great deal of moisture in suspension in the trapped air. As for the rodent issue, any contractor can relate any number of stories about burrows and nests in fiberglass, I have even seen it stripped from bats to be carried away for nesting material, a little fur for a liner and it's home sweet home. I don't know what the tested R value for insulsafe III is, but in the past when fiberglass was tested by the same standards as cellulose, it did not come near it's stated 3.1. Unfortunately I am guilty here of not being able to provide my source for this statement as it has been years since I read the study, perhaps someone else on the list recalls it. 4.x for an inert fiber that is actually a conductor (unless they have changed the nature of the fiber itself) seems high to me. What is the ASTM test method they are quoting for this R value? A further concern I have always had with fiberglass materials is the carcinogenic potential of the fiber, not a small issue. Has anyone seen recent reports of studies indicating new evidence of risk, I believe there may be some new data available but I have not seen the reports directly, only a NYTIMES mention. Chuck Hinckley > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 28 13:33:57 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA10508 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:33:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA25694 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:33:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11269; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:28:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:22:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA10996 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:22:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10992 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:22:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.23] (blf23.acadia.net [205.217.217.23]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA24468 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:27:23 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 13:25:33 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Retro Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 958 Quote: >All--It seems obvious--especially in the note from "phil''--that I am now >perceived as some sort of retrogrundge. I guess you never know what will >happen when you ask a few simple questions. > >Jean End of quote Dear Jean, Please don't think of yourself as a "retrogrundge". We need the hard-headed, conservative (in the best sense of the word) questions you're asking, to help keep the discussion honest and relevant. At the same time, I wish you had the opportunity to visit "green" designers throughout this country and the world, to see how many folks are doing innovative, pragmatic and cost-effective projects. You might see that this isn't all "pie in the sky". Green building requires a high degree of technical and design skills, but there are many practitioners with these. There are numerous green building strategies which have real-world financial returns, and others which are prototypes for now, but show amazing promise and need to be shepherded along. What I've been trying to say, in an overly simplistic way, is that widespread adoption of sustainable building requires changing the mental models of key players: financiers, developers, appraisers, real-estate agents, code-enforcement officers, hardware store employees, etc. I don't mean changing their minds by all standing in a circle holding hands; I mean by doing actual green buildings, demonstrating that they work, making them so great that people want to live in them, spreading the word, and so on. Obviously very general - good point, Jean. We act very specifically every day, in our bioregion, climate and culture. I'll contribute specifics, trying to remember to cite data, when our experience is of general interest. There are probably very specific things you could do, there in Northern California, to foster sustainable building. What would they be? I think this was the point behind the question John Abrams first asked: where do we go from here? - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 28 15:41:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15269 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 15:41:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA21247 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 15:40:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14418; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 15:35:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Dec 1997 15:31:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13974 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 15:31:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13966; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 15:31:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.100] (ka3-93.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.93]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id PAA05158; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 15:36:01 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:50:12 -0500 To: strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Speireag Subject: GBlist: Roof Ventilation Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAB13967 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 959 Hallo, all. This discussion of attic venting has prompted me to wonder. (Surprise.) As I understand it, one system of roof design puts the insulation over a rigid interior layer such as boards. Above the insulation there is an open space of an inch or so where air can circulate freely to and from the outside, via ridge vents or vents along the edge of the roof (the word "soffit" fits in here somewhere, I think, but I'm not sure where). Above that space is another rigid layer, and on top of that goes the waterproof layer, whatever that may be. The purpose of this space is to permit the roof to dry out, apparently, either from moisture from the interior, from leaks, or both. (And maybe for other reasons which I don't know.) Okay. So suppose I put fiberglass in the roof. Doesn't permitting exterior air to wash over it drastically reduce its insulative value? Or at least significantly reduce it? If not, why not? If so, then why is it worth it? Further: the roof which I am planning will have two waterproof membranes and then bales of straw on top (with mulch and plants on top of that). In order to take advantage of the thermal mass of the straw and additives, it seems to me that I don't want an air break for exterior air between the straw layer and the insulation layer. Yes? No? If I *don't* have such a break, then obviously heat from the interior will diffuse into the waterproof layer and into the straw layer. This will, perhaps, result in the usual problem with ice dams. Is this something I need not worry about if I have 10 inches of good insulation and the thermal momentum of the straw to even matters out? This is one of the concerns I keep meaning to lay to rest and keep forgetting to mention. Cogitating furiously, -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 28 18:49:05 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA17883 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 18:49:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA29039 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 18:48:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA18875; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 18:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Dec 1997 18:39:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA18488 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 18:39:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA18483 for ; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 18:39:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5.carleton.ca [134.117.136.25]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v2.01) with ESMTP id SAA04164; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 18:44:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id SAA23602; Sun, 28 Dec 1997 18:44:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 18:44:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712282344.SAA23602@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: VALUE + Thatching Workshop Cc: maybel@classic.msn.com Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 960 Bonjour mes Amis Vertes; Les Trois Trollettes DeTroit (aka Carolyn, Fran and Deanne) have asked that I forward the appended notice of an upcoming thatching workshop. The Three Friends have set out to build themselves a Green Building, learning the necessary skills as they go. So far, (amongst other things) they've learned how to install a rubble trench foundation, lay-up stone walls and erect a timber frame. Right now they're harvesting the 1500 or-so, 5-gallon-bucket-sized bundles of phragmites that they'll need for their roof. I'm sure they could use some help. As the appended notice will reveal, they're bringing in a Flemish Master Thatcher to teach them the ancient craft... and in so doing, are providing an opportunity for others who may be interested. Just so that this post isn't entirely of a "promotional" nature, I think that this business does tie in with the "Value" thread. === * === on Thu, 25 Dec 1997 dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) wrote: re: VALUE > Despite all our talk about technique, finance, leverage, > etc., I'm left to wonder why we live in one of the very few > cultures in history that does not consider its handiworks, > including buildings, to be sacraments. > ...I wonder if we'll achieve sustainable human habitat > without a different relationship to time - one that > includes spirit. It hardly seems a stretch that the attitude of Building As Commodity is attributable to the lack of involvement that the typical occupant has in the process of creating the buildings by which she/he is housed. It is notable that those who the Mainstream view as "alternative builders" invariably speak of their buildings/building process in emotional, yea, often spiritual terms (ie empowering, uplifting, rewarding, sexy, fun etc) ...rather than in technical ones where one is essentially an oculator, left only with the duties of selecting this carpet or that washing machine and so forth. On the one hand, we have buildings/processes that aspire towards the super-efficent Scandinavian model ... a factory-produced housing "unit" where human hands are not even permitted to touch the materials. On the other, we have people like the Three Friends who are assembling low-embodied energy materials harvested from their property to build a shelter which will be in the "superinsulated" category and will probably perform quite respectably when compared to "conventional" construction. One can't help but conclude that their (Les Trollettes') building will come darned close to "achiev(ing) sustainable human habitat (with) a different relationship to time - one that includes spirit." ==================== FORWARDED MESSAGE ========================== From: Carolyn A. Koch [FAX:+1 (810) 656-9456] !!!!!!!!! THATCHING WORKSHOP !!!!!!!!!! April 17 - 28, 1998 Taught by Danish Master Thatcher, Flemming Abrahamsson This 12 day experiential workshop will include: * Learning basic skills of the traditional craft of thatching * How to: Select and prepare thatch material Design a thatch roof Apply the material to a ground level frame * Supervised thatching on roof * Evening programs related to historical and current thatching, natural building and sustainable living presented. The Thatching Workshop site is on rural wooded land in Northern Oakland County, an hour north of Detroit, Michigan. The "Dutch" roof to be thatched is for a log-frame studio with a stone kneewall. Strawbale infill walls and cob interior elements will be completed after the roof is finished. Class Limit is 10 students. A non-refundable $150 deposit will hold your place. The $900 balance of the $1050 total is due by April 1, 1998 10% discount if balance due is paid by March 1, 1998 ($800) 15% discount if balance due is paid by February 1, 1998 ($750) Two meals per day are included in the cost. On-site camping space is available. Average April temperatures are a high of 58F and a low of 38F. Lodging available in nearby homes for $10 a day. Contact: Deanne Bednar at 248/363-1756 or ecoartdb@aol.com Send deposit to: Fran Lee at 2691 Noble Road, Oxford, MI 48370 248/628-5283 ================== END of FORWARDED MESSAGE ====================== -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 29 02:08:47 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA17828 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 02:08:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA05512 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 02:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA29760; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 02:02:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 29 Dec 1997 01:57:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA29250 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 01:57:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA29246 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 01:57:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (sasc2-75.flash.net [209.30.90.75]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA11477 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 01:01:50 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34A74C60.C0325FDC@flash.net> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 01:08:16 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilder Group Subject: GBlist: First Post--Need Advice Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 961 > Hello, All > > This is my first post to this group, so I'll try to be concise and not break > any group rules. > > My reasons for joining this group are twofold: > > First: I strongly agree with the concepts of energy conservation and > sustainability. I've had a keen interest in energy conservation ever since > I paid my first utility bill. My previous home had several very "energy-dumb" > faults, which would have been very costly to fix (i.e.:mature evergreens on > the south side of the house--desiduous shade trees on the north side). > Thus I've been eager to build my own home without any legacy from the > energy-blind '50s. This brings me to reason two. > > Second: I'm in the process of "building" my first new home, and need > some advice. Specifically, I'm having trouble with the builder regarding > verification of Texas Veterans Loan Bureau (TVLB) Greenbuilder points. > Greenbuilder points are a part of the TVLB program which can reduce > the interest on a TVLB loan. A borrower gets points by complying with > various aspects of the Greenbuilder Program, regarding energy > conservation, sustainability, use of local resources, and environmental > soundness. The builder (a developer named Continental Homes of > San Antonio, L.P.) told me that it would be too much trouble to read > through the list of items/points to verify my elegibility for a break > on the interest. As far as I know, participation in the Greenbuilder > program is purely voluntary. Still, I was amazed that the developer > would arbitrarily refuse to spend the few minutes required to enable > me to qualify for the break in interest. The salesman said that > Continental was afraid they would then "have to do the same for all > their Texas Veteran purchasers"! > > In the short 80 mile trip from San Antonio to Austin (where the > Texas GB Program originated) one drops back about 20 years > in terms of enlightened building practices. San Antonio is, per capita, > a less affluent area than Austin. I suspect that Maslov's pyramid of > needs has a real effect on the design of mainstream housing here. > An earlier post mentioned that home buyers who felt lucky to even > qualify for the loan were unlikely to question the energy efficiency of > the design. > > Are any of you aware of any means by which I might encourage my > developer to participate to the slight extent required by the program? > Any ideas or leads would really help. I need to get the builder's signature > by closing, now estimated to happen around the end of February. > > Whoops--my first post, and I've blown my effort to be concise. I'll > try harder in future posts. > > > Larry Stivers > San Antonio TX > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 29 08:20:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA01106 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:20:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA01813 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:19:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06458; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:14:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:10:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA06105 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:10:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06101 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:10:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA100068; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 06:13:29 -0700 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 06:13:28 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: ecoartdb@aol.com Cc: "Robert W. Tom" , GreenBuilding Listserver , dmfoley@acadia.net, maybel@classic.msn.com Subject: Re: GBlist: re: VALUE + Thatching Workshop In-Reply-To: <199712282344.SAA23602@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 962 Deanne: Further to the note of below, I cannot fathom why a thatcher is being imported (if true), if there are thatchers who do this work in North America already, rooted in the local tradition, familiar with regional climate and using local materials? I would have thought it makes a lot of sense for many reasons to take a far more sustainable approach? What Have I missed? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Sun, 28 Dec 1997, Robert W. Tom wrote: > they're bringing in a Flemish Master Thatcher to teach them the ancient > craft... > dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) wrote: > ==================== FORWARDED MESSAGE ========================== > From: Carolyn A. Koch [FAX:+1 (810) 656-9456] > Taught by Danish Master Thatcher, Flemming Abrahamsson > Deanne Bednar at 248/363-1756 or ecoartdb@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 29 08:43:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA12030 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:43:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA05610 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:42:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07081; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:37:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:33:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA06794 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:33:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06790 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:33:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from eei.org by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: mail.eei.org [204.254.108.2]) id QQdwaf26951; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:26:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from WPDomain-Message_Server by eei.org with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:26:11 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:25:47 -0500 From: Harvey Sachs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Water heating data Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 963 Jean Gallagher asks for "before-and-after" data to show the savings of technology "B" relative to "A," for example, instant vs. storage hot water heaters. A couple of comments may be helpful, and might be nearly accurate. 1) The USDOE ratings are based on a defined water withdrawal pattern, not (of course) field data. field data are just too variable. People undertake short-term projects that lead to lots of showers and clothes-washing, or they go away... 2) I don't know for sure, but I do work with some of the researchers who measure hot water use in residences, and my sense is (a) that few houses and other dwellings have been monitored, (b) there is a lot of variability, and (c) most of the monitoring has been done since the DOE procedures were codified. So, it is not clear to me how well the DOE procedure maps into "average" use patterns, much less your own. Where does this leave me? Recognizing that any time I buy a new or niche product I am taking a chance that it might not fulfill expectations. On the other hand, if it does, I am delighted with the service, and I am more pleased that, in either case, my investment helped begin the market transformation that will lead to lower costs for the successful products, from higher volume. Call it a modest form of social investment (if you are on the "bleeding edge" of useful technologies. do not let your teen use this argument for the latest audio gear fad!). harvey sachs ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 29 09:10:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA25325 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:09:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA11263 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:09:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07929; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:04:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:00:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07701 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:00:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07697 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sa11.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.140]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA09527 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:05:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34A7AD14.47E2@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 09:00:52 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Larry Stiver Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 964 Larry, How deeply committed to the project are you? The things I am going to recommend are a not going to make you Continental's favorite client. Have a lawyer look over any contracts for possible escapes or leverage. If you can escape the contract with no or minimal cost, the savings realised by starting over, may be greater than the costs. Talk to the loan agency about pressuring the contractor to participate. Threaten to publicize the contractor's unwillingness perform this simple and resonable service, no one likes bad publicity. Become the squeekiest wheel they ever heard, you have a right to expect some degree of professionalism from the builder. If you escape, do more research before you jump into the next contract. As a contractor I can testify to the effect of the squeeky wheel on a project, you can't ignore them but you sure won't throw them a party when it's over. By the way, when I say squeeky wheel I don't mean useless haranguing and screaming, I'm talking about constant, constructive insistance on your agenda. You are the buyer, you should get what you are willing to pay for, it won't be free. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 29 11:10:33 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA23812 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:10:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA06826 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:09:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11330; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:04:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:58:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10946 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:58:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10938 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:58:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [198.5.254.164] (ke-ppp14.hevanet.com [198.5.254.164]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09584 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:02:59 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: obrien@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:17:32 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Michael O'Brien" Subject: GBlist: Where's the spinach? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 965 Hi, Jean-- Of course, we need to be practical about paybacks on energy measures. However, there is plenty of research available to document the measures discussed in this forum. Perhaps you need to do a little more research yourself, other than asking where's the Consumer Reports article. It's not fair to accuse all of us of softheadedness if you won't get up to speed on your own time. It also doesn't make sense to paint all technology with the same brush. VCRs are not insulation. With all due respect, complaining is not the same as constructive criticism. Best, Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 29 11:52:55 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA26393 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:52:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA18387 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:52:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13431; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:47:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:43:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13089 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:43:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from pnl.gov (relay.pnl.gov [130.20.128.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13085 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 11:43:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from pnlmse1.pnl.gov by pnl.gov (PMDF V5.1-10 #21283) with ESMTP id <01IRQNP5TM0W8YCFRM@pnl.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:47:42 PST Received: from ccmail.pnl.gov by pnlmse1.pnl.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id ZPKY2DQD; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:47:39 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ccmail.pnl.gov (IMA Internet Exchange 2.12 Enterprise) id 0038E3E5; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:47:39 -0800 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:12:45 -0800 From: ad_lee@ccmail.pnl.gov (Allen D Lee) Subject: Re: GBlist: FINANCE To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Jean Gallagher Message-id: <0038E3E5.4025@ccmail.pnl.gov> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="Message Body" Content-description: cc:Mail note part Content-disposition: inline; filename="Message Body" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 966 This message and a couple others mentioned various measures of how long people stay in their homes. Statistics often quoted refer to about a 7-year period. This is usually based on loan statistics, which reflect how long people hold a given mortgage or loan on their home. These numbers are downward biased by refinancing so even though the loan may turn over in about 7 years, it doesn't mean the occupants have moved. There have been many in-depth statistical analyses done of tenure and mobility, but all are confronted with serious data gaps and methodological problems. The best give average tenure stats closer to 12-15 years. Often the average numbers are biased downward by people who tend to move a lot and their frequent moves bring the average down. We did a study based on occupant survey data for owners of manufactured homes. We found the average amount of time people had lived in their homes already was about 9 years. When we added in how much longer people expected to stay in their current home, the average tenure was around 16 years total. The demographics of manufactured home occupants differ from site-built home occupants, so this value may not accurately represent all home occupants. Anyway, it is close to other estimates for all housing. This study (Key Elements Affecting Manufactured Home Household Investments in Energy Efficiency: An Empirical Analysis) and nearly 50 others addressing energy efficient manufactured homes can be ordered off the Internet at www.mfdhousing.com. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: GBlist: FINANCE Author: Jean Gallagher at -SMTPLink Date: 12/26/97 9:55 PM David--You are such a nice guy, obviousy, that I hate to keep questioning what you say, but, on the other hand, so much of what you say is SO GENERAL as to be, for me at least, meaningless. For instance: Ofinance is by definition about time.O Yes, and so is death. And taxes, and so forth. Finance, it seems to me, is about time and money and the perceived value of both. And you acknowledge this, but then say that banks demand Ocheap first costs,O followed by Omoney flowing toward banks and not toward continued improvements.O ItOs so smooth that one might forget that the bank is not your loving, trusting parent. Maybe it should be, or maybe that is how, IN AN IDEAL WORLD, the relationship should be defined, but, as it is, there is a source of capital on the one side and a need for capital on the other. IOm trying to figure out how you are going to turn an abstract relationship into a personal relationship. Possibly with JohnOs cohousing? And I will defer to anyone else who can prove otherwise, but my STRONG feeling is that average home ownership is far less than 12 years, and closer to 5-6 years. (But maybe IOm remembering average OmoveO time, which includes many renters?) But be that as it may, I guess IOm a bit irritated by the sort of apple pie attitude that, oh well, we just spend megadollars retrofitting this and that, and, oh, by the way, voila, 11 years later we reap the small rewards! Why not be honest and say at the outset that, unless you are building now and smart, savings will be small and deferred. And, at this point, you cannot expect a financial institution to be your lover. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 29 14:28:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA28010 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:28:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA29737 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19573; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:22:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:18:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19241 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:18:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from assateague.lerc.nasa.gov (assateague.lerc.nasa.gov [139.88.35.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19234 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:18:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from captiva.lerc.nasa.gov by assateague.lerc.nasa.gov with ESMTP (NASA LeRC 8.7.4.1/2.01-main) id OAA15477; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:23:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhober1.lerc.nasa.gov by captiva.lerc.nasa.gov with SMTP (NASA LeRC 8.7.4.1/2.01-local) id OAA20062; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:23:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19971229142259.0101c5ec@popserve.lerc.nasa.gov> X-Info: IDE / NASA Lewis Research Center X-Sender: pvmarkh@popserve.lerc.nasa.gov X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:22:59 -0500 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: Mark A Hoberecht Subject: Re: GBlist: re: VALUE + Thatching Workshop Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: References: <199712282344.SAA23602@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 967 At 06:13 AM 12/29/97 -0700, you (Jorg D. Ostrowski) wrote: >Deanne: Further to the note of below, I cannot fathom why a thatcher is being >imported (if true), if there are thatchers who do this work in North America >already, rooted in the local tradition, familiar with regional climate and >using local materials? I would have thought it makes a lot of sense for many >reasons to take a far more sustainable approach? What Have I missed? Jorg, My apologies if Deanne has responded to you privately. Without commenting on the sustainability of this workshop, I thought the list might be interested in the merits of Flemming Abrahamsson. Those of us who attended the Fall '96 Natural Building Colloquium at Shenoa in northern CA can attest to the wonderful teaching abilities of Flemming. Not only is he a master thatcher, but a well-respected "green" architect as well, having worked on a number of impressive projects in Europe. His expertise also extends to masonry heaters and composting toilets. So a workshop with Flemming is more than just a thatching workshop. I spoke with Deanne last week and she indicated that Flemming was LESS expensive than the resident U.S. thatchers that she spoke with. Best .... Mark Hoberecht ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 29 14:53:00 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA28349 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:53:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA06570 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:52:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20919; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:47:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:43:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA20589 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:43:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20585 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:43:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OMD25720; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:47:11 EST To: Pbsustain@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 10:45:24 -0900 Subject: GBlist: Re: mortgage discounts Message-ID: <19971229.104525.11822.0.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <7e9109c2.34a46df4@aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,10-11,15-16,21-24 From: woodeneagle@juno.com (R. Scott Waterman) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 968 Phil: I work for the Alaska Housing Finance Corporation. It was initially set up to provide a secondary mortgage market for primary lenders, as Freddi and Fanny would not play here....When we return the profits of the mortgages into new mortgages, or do other programs that benefit consumers at large, there are no taxes owed....Hence the EE mortgage rate reduction. We also have many homes that have the cold weather problems of ice dams, unbalanced forced air systems, mold, rot, wet insualtion, high energy bills...and the rest of the typical construction problems faced by traditional building practices. We have some consumer education programs,. but few and not nearly enough. I do not know if other states are doing this to the extent we are; our energy conservation programs have taken a long while to gain acceptance, and are still fought tooth and nail by some builders. I do not know of any calculations for a return to the state, but not having to pay taxes, keeping that mortgage money in the local economy, reduced energy use and costs, reduced air pollution (an issue in Anchorage and Fairbanks) and more comfortable homes are some of the benefits. Scott Waterman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 29 16:25:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA29420 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:25:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA01496 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:24:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25071; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:15:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24733 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:15:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from teal.cr.usgs.gov (teal.cr.usgs.gov [159.189.176.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24729 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:15:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from brdsmtp2.cr.usgs.gov by teal.cr.usgs.gov (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA24364; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:20:08 -0700 Received: from ccMail by brdsmtp2.cr.usgs.gov (IMA Internet Exchange 2.11 Enterprise) id 0001994A; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 14:18:59 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 16:18:45 -0700 Message-ID: <0001994A.@usgs.gov> From: FROG@usgs.gov (FROG) Subject: GBlist: solar hot water panels - heat pumps - radiators To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Message Body" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 969 We have gotten (4) 3X13 and (12) 3X8 foot solar hot water panels donated to us for possible use in a green school that we are building. The school will be only 2400 sq ft., have R50 insulation in the walls and cielings and r30 in the floor, incorporate passive solar features, is located outside of Washington D.C. We are now trying to come to grips with the best way to incorporate (or not) these panels into space heating. We have regected radiant heat because of the expense (the building will be on piers not slab on grade). We were wondering: 1. If it might be possible to use such a system as a preheater for a geothermal heat pump. 2. Because we also may have access to some old radiators, we were also wondering whether heat pumps could be used to heat water for baseboard/radiator hot water style systems. 3. If there was some other means of incorporating these panels into space heating that we have not considered..... Thanks for the help. sam 0< 0- 0< 0- 0< 0- 0< ->>) ->>) ->>) ->>) ->>) ->>) ->>) L L L L L L L Sam Droege FROG@USGS.GOV w 301-497-5840 h 410-798-6759 fax 301-497-5784 PWRC, 12100 Beech Forest Dr., Laurel, Md 20708-4038 Http://www.mp1-pwrc.usgs.gov Surely there is something in the unruffled calm of nature that overawes our little anxieties and doubts: the sight of the deep-blue sky, and the clustering stars above, seem to impart a quiet to the mind. -Jonathan Edwards ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 29 22:42:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA04225 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:42:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA02770 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:41:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA06508; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:36:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:32:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA06276 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:32:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06272 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:32:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA24151 for ; Mon, 29 Dec 1997 19:37:45 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 29 Dec 1997 19:37:01 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: HARMONY To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id WAA06273 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 970 Harvey--I agree at least in part with the sentiments in your last parapraph. If we think a product--like a tanlkess water heater--makes ÒgreenÓ sense, then why not become part of the demand that will lower prices, foster healthy compitetion, etc? But what if--as with a tankless water heater--the cost difference is 300% or 400%? (Not counting a problematic installation.) Mike accuses me of failing to do my homework, but I have scoured my (university) library as well as the internet for unbiased information about just such energy-saving devices and/or procedures. So, OK, Mike, tell me where I can find a good comparison/analysis of tankless water heaters, and IÕll eat a public plate of crow and spinach. And, Harvey, at the risk of oversimplifying, whatÕs the big problem about different families having different patterns of usage? Just say--ÓIn these tests we used brand x, and y, and z tankless vs. a, b, c w/ tanks. In one series we turned a 1/2ÕÓ tap on full for 30 minutes a day; in another series, we turned the tap on full for one, two, three hours a day.Ó And the results could contain kwhÕs and/or therms used. Or somesuch. I think we the consumers could then figure out which way to jump. David and John)--I donÕt for a minute think of any of this as Òpie-in-the- skyÓ! I didnÕt join the list so I could criticize, but so I could find information. In my first post, I mentioned an interest in SIPs, but noted that some on an art/architecture site I visit had vague criticisms. When I asked one to be more specific, he said ÒWell donÕt ask me if your mind is already made up.Ó We all get a little thin skinned, sometimes. You ask what might be some concerns here in northern California. I mentioned before that there is one great over-riding, clearcut green issue here: rice straw. Tons and tons of rice straw are burned each year, polluting the air. The legislature instituted a progressive burn ban, and urged county building officials to Òlook favorablyÓ on strawbale construction. But the rice farmers are fighting it--and you canÕt blame them. They canÕt till the straw under, because it doesnÕt break down quickly, and also fosters a kind of mold. If they go to the expense of baling it, and no one buys the bales, theÕre stuck with big soggy messes come December. But so far all thatÕs happened is the occasional local flurry when one individual builds a strawbale house, and the local reporter trots out the three pig story. I appreciate the sort of Òhandmade housesÓ point of view; that was one of my favorite books years ago. Along with the counterpart rolling and floating homes. (And I still have some interest in strawbale building.) But I think we have to acknowledge that somewhere along the way we have to give a nod toward industry and what it can do if given the right push. We need to appreciate the romantic, esthetic end of green construction, but it makes no sense, to me, for instance, to condemn Swedish SIPs houses because, simply, no human hands have touched them. I tell you, if I never had to put hands on another fiberglas batt, IÕd be happier. But thanks for all the kind words--and admonishments. This remains--by far--the best site of its kind I have found. (And believe me, Mike, IÕve spent A LOT of time researching.) Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 07:34:58 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA09096 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:34:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA01960 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:34:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA16916; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:29:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:24:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA16698 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:24:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA16694 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:24:38 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:28:19 EST To: jean_gallagher@macgate.csuchico.edu Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: HARMONY Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 971 In a message dated 97-12-29 22:49:41 EST, Jean writes: << But what if--as with a tankless water heater--the cost difference is 300% or 400%? (Not counting a problematic installation.) Mike accuses me of failing to do my homework, but I have scoured my (university) library as well as the internet for unbiased information about just such energy-saving devices and/or procedures. >> If something is touted as an energy saving device then for me, and certainly my clients, it has to be cost justified and have a reasonable payback. Individuals can decide what's reasonable. However, the tankless heater I described cost almost 100% more and paid for itself within 2 years (I'm only counting a $10/mo savings-very conservative). Also, it was not a problematic installation at all. Again, I suggest contacting manufacturers of tankless heaters and asking for product info and also if they have comparison tests. Mine is an Aquastar and came from Controlled Energy Corp in Vt. at 800-642-3111. One of the reasons it cost more is it came from France (imported, tariffs, etc). "" There may be more to the legislation story. I'm sure others believe the producers of waste have a measure of responsibility in its disposal. There may have been attempts at negotiation, meetings with farmers and trade assoc. reps and so forth before the legislation, but, in any case, there may be a silver lining. There is a company manufacturing panelized building systems using agricultural waste products that has an interest in possibly locating a plant in California due to this legislation. That may be a year or more away from reality but could be of interest. Their web site is www.agriboard.com and phone in Iowa is 515-472-0363. Hope this helps, Phil SustainAbility Fredericksburg, Va. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 07:46:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA09196 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA03597 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:45:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA17287; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:41:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:37:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA17047 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:37:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA17043 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:36:59 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1 Message-ID: <2b32d47a.34a8ebe6@aol.com> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 07:41:08 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: "How do I Get My Green Mortgage Points" etc. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 972 Chuck Hinckley said to Larry on the "How do I get Green Points?" issues: << I'm talking about constant, constructive insistance on your agenda. You are the buyer, you should get what you are willing to pay for, it won't be free. >> ....and another thing.... there are OTHER lenders and OTHER builders out there. Some of the lenders offer "energy efficient mortgages" of sorts, and most of THOSE deliver either (a) reduced interest rates, (b) better qualifying allowances, (c) cash back at closing or (d) some combination of the above. Some can be found at the EPA Energy Star Home program web site at www.energystar.gov . (small rant) Competition is a great thing. MOST builders would love to find more and better "qualified" buyers. MOST builders would love to sell more profitable homes of higher VALUE. MOST lenders would love to invest their mortage risks in higher VALUE pieces of property. Right? RIGHT? Where ARE these people? Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 09:46:15 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA10128 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:46:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA22736 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:45:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19598; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:40:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:36:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19261 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:35:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay3.UU.NET (relay3.UU.NET [192.48.96.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19257 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:35:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from eei.org by relay3.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: mail.eei.org [204.254.108.2]) id QQdwec09109; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:40:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from WPDomain-Message_Server by eei.org with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:40:38 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:40:19 -0500 From: Harvey Sachs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: Jean Gallagher's concerns. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 973 Jean Gallagher asks me to comment on two issues wrt tankless water heaters, and by extension, other innovative products. 1) JG: "If we think a product--like a tanlkess water heater--makes "green" sense, then why not become part of the demand that will lower prices, foster healthy compitetion, etc? But what if--as with a tankless water heater--the cost difference is 300% or 400%? (Not counting a problematic installation.) HS: I can only respond that it becomes a question of individual decisions about _values_ and risks. If the incremental cost is worth it relative to my sense of importance, and if I can afford it, I do it. Otherwise, I let it go by. Just like any other consumer decision, but with the inclusion of green values as one element. Life's a fuzzy vector, not a scalar (hey, I like that. sounds profound and geekly, and that's an odd combination!). 2) JG: "Harvey, at the risk of oversimplifying, what's the big problem about different families having different patterns of usage? Just say-- "In these tests we used brand x, and y, and z tankless vs. a, b, c w/ tanks. In one series we turned a 1/2 tap on full for 30 minutes a day; in another series, we turned the tap on full for one, two, three hours a day." And the results could contain kwhs and/or therms used. Or somesuch. I think we the consumers could then figure out which way to jump. HS: This has a whole bunch of sub-issues balled up in it, which is fine. There are a bunch of ways to approach this. The DOE approach, from a regulatory standpoint, is to set a standard test and measure performance against it. The test pattern of water use may not map well with anyone's use pattern, which would impact its accuracy and utility. Or, it might do well for most folks, but be irrelevant for groups such as the elderly, office lavatories, etc. DOE and industry have a delicate balance, and there won't be a lot of different tests for the same class of products. In a previous career, I tried hard to get the water heating tests to consider different sizes as different classes, so we could move to a heat pump water heater standard in stages (largest first) but was unsuccessful. Second approach is through industry ratings, which is a voluntary, manufacturer consensus approach that works pretty well, once a product is well-established. Again, your results may vary, but the critical issue is that nothing happens until the market is mature enough to support the costs of the certification effort. I'd estimate the costs of developing a rating and certification method to be in excess of $100,000, and that just doesn't happen for consumer products sold in small numbers. Third approach is "private," typically by magazines. As you know from auto, bike, and other enthusiast mags, there is "tension" between the ad side and the editorial side, except for groups like Consumer Reports. But CU needs to pay attention to what its 3 million members really buy, so it started testing (for example) bike helmets after they had come into widespread use... This is philosophically a hard nut to crack: if "I" pay to do the testing, how can "I" recover the costs? If "we" pay for the testing process, where is the tradeoff between enough products tested enough ways, and a waste of resources, or a lock-in to a test method that then discourages innovative products. so, Jean, we all get frustrated, and just muddle through. all this rambling does NOT represent my organization... harvey sachs ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 11:11:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA11197 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:11:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA14851 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:10:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23254; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:06:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:00:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22559 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:59:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22555; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:59:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.198] (ka3-198.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.198]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id LAA12313; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:04:31 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:04:16 -0500 To: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List From: Speireag Subject: GBlist: Rubble Trench Variations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAB22556 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 974 Howdy! I just had an idea, and if it works I'm going to feel like a prize idiot. Our house design, as blessed by our architect, calls for the considerable weight of the living roof (plus snow) to be carried on a timber frame. There are eight posts. Each, in the current design, rests on a 12-inch column of concrete and rebar, which concrete and rebar descends below frostline to a footing three feet across and at least eight inches thick. The walls and such are supported on a stem wall which rests on a rubble trench, which also goes down below frost line. Okay, so my rubble trench goes down five feet, and the trench is dug. Rather than put footings way down there, why can I not fill it with rubble, which won't heave any sooner than footings at that level, and put the footings right under the posts, set into and onto the rubble of the rubble trench? I'm guessing that the rubble will distribute the weight adequately. No so? It seems that that design would keep it from heaving as well as the other would. The advantages of the design, if it works, are several: first, I need pour less concrete and use less rebar. Second, I can lay the footing drain and the septic pipe and start filling the trench back up with rubble now, in the winter, while the ground is frozen. It'll settle in spring, but that's okay, because I'm not putting anything on top of it until spring. But I have some big events happening in May which will take much of my time, and I want to get as far ahead as possible. Thoughts? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 11:25:54 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA11345 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:25:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA18376 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:25:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24175; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:20:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:16:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23838 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:16:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net (denmark-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23832 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:16:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.176] (1Cust176.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.176]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA10498 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:20:00 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199712301620.IAA10498@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: "How do I Get My Green Mortgage Points" etc. Date: Tue, 30 Dec 97 08:23:19 -0000 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 975 The RESNET Web site also maintains a list of such lenders. It's a great source for financing and home energy rating information. Bruce >Some of the lenders offer "energy efficient mortgages" of sorts, and most of >THOSE deliver either (a) reduced interest rates, (b) better qualifying >allowances, (c) cash back at closing or (d) some combination of the above. >Some can be found at the EPA Energy Star Home program web site at >www.energystar.gov . -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 11:45:01 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA12064 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:45:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA24520 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:44:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25221; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:39:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:35:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24827 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:34:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24822 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:34:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sa4-p26.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.154]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA06859 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:40:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34A922D5.89E@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:35:33 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Rubble Trench Varient Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 976 What are the dimensions of you trench? What is the soil composition? What is the make up and size of your rubble agragate? What is the roof load calculated at? Many an old Celtic castle is founded in just such a way, but the "footers" were huge and carefully layed. Some are still standing and some are not. Perhaps the most important questions are will your local codes allow it and will your engineers sign off on it? Some of you may hate building codes and their enforcers, but they do serve an important role in society. In thirty years in the building trade I have seen some of the most absurd, insane, unimaginable, boondoggles past off as legitimate construction. The dangers of unregulated construction can be of fatal proportion. Think about that the next time you bitch about the idiot codes officer, personally I haven't met one that I couldn't work with, especially if you have your facts down. Don't wander in with some hair brained scheme that came to you in a dream last night and expect him/her to put themselves on the line without documentation. Data, data, data, it makes all the difference. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 11:48:27 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA12167 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:48:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA25990 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:47:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25571; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:42:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:38:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25140 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:38:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25124 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:38:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.93] (pa-ppp08.hevanet.com [204.119.60.93]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16378 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:43:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 08:42:14 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: GBlist: Spinach Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 977 Hi, Jean-- I appreciate your temperate response to my impatience. I will try to help you find the information you are looking for. Got your spinach ready? To compare tankless water heaters: 1. Point your web browser to http://www.eren.doe.gov/consumerinfo/rebriefs/bc1.html for the Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Network bulletin on tankless water heaters. This descriptive document explains how to evaluate the heaters, and includes further references to NTIS (National Technical Information Service) and NBS (National Bureau of Standards) test information. 2. Order a copy of the GAMA (Gas Appliance Manufacturers Association) "Consumer Directory of Certified Energy Efficiency Ratings for Residential Heating and Water Heating Equipment". This directory includes current manufacurers' test results using standard US DOE efficiency test procedures for all types of water heaters, including tankless. It is published twice yearly for $5 by GAMA, 1901 N. Moore St., Arlington VA 22209 (703)525-9565. 3. If you are handy with spreadsheet or database programs, you can access the California Energy Commission efficiency ratings at ftp://energy.ca.gov/pub/efftech/appliance/. These ratings cover thousands of weater heater models so they are big and unwieldy, but comprehensive. 4. Order a copy of the bulletins, "Comparing Water Heating Costs in Oregon" and "Buying a New Water Heater" from the Oregon State University Energy Extension Program, 800 NE Oregon St., Box #10 Portland, OR 97232 (503)731-4104. The comparison bulletin lists the 10-year life cycle cost for all types of water heaters, including gas and electric tankless. Your local county extension office may have similar information. Please let me know if you would like information on performing your own life-cycle analysis. Best, Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Earth Smart Program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 12:38:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12839 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:38:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA11288 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:37:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27856; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:32:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:28:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA27536 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA27532 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA26578 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 09:34:07 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 30 Dec 1997 09:33:00 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: DON'T FORGET THE CROW To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA27533 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 978 Mike--looks like I've been aced! I'll let you know how crow and spinach hash tastes. I haven't looked at the sources you mentioned, but they are apparently exactly what I've been looking for. There must be better ways of finding this kind of information than I've been using. (metacrawler.com, computer-catalog at the University, Reader's Guide) I guess you make your living doing this, but would you care to give some general (search) pointers? I did, since yesterday, find a mention of tankless heaters on the Austin Green site recommended by Elena, but nothing like the in-depth studies your sources suggest. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 12:46:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12983 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:46:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA13333 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:45:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28407; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:40:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:36:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28012 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:36:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from waltz.worldcom.com (waltz.interliant.com [198.64.193.157]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28008 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:36:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smtp@localhost) by waltz.worldcom.com (8.8.5/Interliant) id LAA09750 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:39:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from internet-503.interliant.com(198.64.193.51) by waltz.worldcom.com via smap (V1.3) id smab09723; Tue Dec 30 11:39:55 1997 Received: by internet-503.interliant.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 8625657D.0061963E ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:45:54 -0600 X-Lotus-FromDomain: ILGW @ RCOMINT@RCOMNET@INTERLIANT @ OUTBOUND From: "Ulrich Brandenberger" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <8625657D.00618F0F.00@internet-503.interliant.com> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:36:17 +0100 Subject: Re: GBlist: "How do I Get My Green Mortgage Points" etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 979 Bruce - TNX for the Link. However... The RESNET Web site has URL .COM doesn't work Regards, Ulrich At 30.12.97 09:23 sullivan @ oikos.com wrote: > The RESNET Web site also maintains a list of such > lenders. It's a great source for financing and home energy rating > information. > > Bruce ________________________________________________________________________ Ulrich Brandenberger Environmental Protection Advisor SR Logistics Environmental Unit Swiss Reinsurance Company Mythenquai 50/60 CH-8022 Zurich Switzerland Phone: +41 1 285 2847 Fax: +41 1 285 4711 ________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 13:31:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA13989 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:31:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA24854 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:30:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00641; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:23:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:19:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00231 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:19:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00227 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:19:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NYB02707; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:23:45 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <19971230.141959.6415.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,7-8,10,12,14-20 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:23:45 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 980 Hi, all, Recently I have been following the progress of several homes being built here in S. Florida using a product called Blue Maxx. This, along with several other similar products, is an interlocking foam block which is in-filled with concrete. They claim to incorporate recycled content and to be non-toxic. They also claim to be very energy efficient and, important here, hurricane resistant. I have just been approached by a chemically sensitive client who has asked me to work with her builder in an advisory capacity. My question is, are these systems 1. as energy efficient as they claim, 2. safe for chemically sensitive owners 3. considered to be at all environmentally sensitive? Any thoughts? Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Inc. Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 13:50:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA14413 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:50:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA29923 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:49:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01613; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:44:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:40:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA01291 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:39:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01287 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:39:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.36] (iplink36.crocker.com [205.246.4.36]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA00629 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:03:27 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:48:07 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Better, long-lived houses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 981 David, you said.. >The trouble is, try convincing a banker to finance a house with 12 inch >thick walls, a 16 inch thick roof, and no central heating system - just a >Monitor or a fan coil connected to the water heater, etc. Try convincing a >realtor that such a house has resale value, and try getting an appraiser to >find a "comparable" in the neighborhood. Well, you know, you should try... it really isn't that difficult. About 15 years ago I designed and built just such a house here in western New England (it actually had electric radiant heating panels which served the micro heating load) I kept very careful track of what it cost to build this house - right down to having the crew keep their hours for any "superinsulating" activity separate. I tracked then daily, and did the same for material costs. I compared the result to a "base case" typical model (2x6 walls ...etc.) The result was a 5.8% surcharge for superinsulation and sealing. I am sure we could do better nowadays -(maybe Amory is right about it even being a zero upcharge... but Amory et al can be a bit fast and loose at times). The data on the house described was published in one of Craig Sieben's "Superinsulated Buildinf Newsletter" s that were circulating at the time. Still, the added cost, if there is an added cost, is still small. It is tantamount to any number of finish upgrades that people make choices about all the time - granite counter over laminate for example. Bankers and realtors don't really care, in fact they hardly even know. It is the value system of the person in charge of the project that matters. Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 14:05:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA14596 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:05:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA04609 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:04:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02395; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:59:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:55:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA01984 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:55:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cdsnet.net (mail.cdsnet.net [204.118.244.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01974 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:55:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from epsform.cdsnet.net (d01a8159.dip.cdsnet.net [208.26.129.89]) by mail.cdsnet.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA11052 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:59:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 10:59:22 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199712301859.KAA11052@mail.cdsnet.net> X-Sender: epsform@mail.cdsnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: DARRIN THORNTON Subject: Re: GBlist: "How do I Get My Green Mortgage Points" etc. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 982 Also I have used NORWEST MORTGAGE company for EE mortgages. Polysteel is the only ICF (insulated concrete form) on the market with the Builders Gold recognition from a mortgage company. Also the only ICF with the EPA 5 Star program! FYI for all. At 08:23 AM 12/30/97 -0000, you wrote: >The RESNET Web site also maintains a list of such >lenders. It's a great source for financing and home energy rating >information. > >Bruce > >>Some of the lenders offer "energy efficient mortgages" of sorts, and most of >>THOSE deliver either (a) reduced interest rates, (b) better qualifying >>allowances, (c) cash back at closing or (d) some combination of the above. >>Some can be found at the EPA Energy Star Home program web site at >>www.energystar.gov . > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 >Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 >Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com >----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > > Thanks again, Darrin Thornton @ Polysteel Alternative Building Systems, Inc. 664 Hillandale Circle Eagle Point, Oregon 97524 Office 541-830-FORM (3676) Fax 541-830-3611 cell phone email text only 5419443626@mobile.att.net EMAIL: epsform@cdsnet.net www.cdsnet.net/Business/Polysteel That's about all the electronic leashes I want!! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 14:36:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA14989 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:36:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA12863 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA04056; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:30:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:26:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03577 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:25:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03573; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:25:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA03140; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:31:04 -0800 Message-ID: <34A94AA4.F5F96B9@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 11:25:24 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag CC: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List Subject: GBlist: Re: Rubble Trench Variations X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 983 Hi Joshua I think the idea is good and it relates well to the function of the rubble trench - I'm surprised that you and your architect are working with both a trench foundation and a conventional footing/stem wall detail. The trench should allow for both a grade beam instead of a stem wall and a shallow pier footing. All of this could be easily incorporated into a structural slab which would provide the simplest eng. solution, reduce formwork and number of pours, amount of conc. and would provide a uniform base less subject to any potential movement or settling within the trenches. Worth a discussion with the architect or engineer. Best John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Speireag wrote: > Howdy! > > I just had an idea, and if it works I'm going to feel like a prize > idiot. > > Our house design, as blessed by our architect, calls for the > considerable weight of the living roof (plus snow) to be carried on a > timber frame. There are eight posts. Each, in the current design, > rests > on a 12-inch column of concrete and rebar, which concrete and rebar > descends below frostline to a footing three feet across and at least > eight > inches thick. The walls and such are supported on a stem wall which > rests > on a rubble trench, which also goes down below frost line. > > Okay, so my rubble trench goes down five feet, and the trench is > dug. > Rather than put footings way down there, why can I not fill it with > rubble, > which won't heave any sooner than footings at that level, and put the > footings right under the posts, set into and onto the rubble of the > rubble > trench? I'm guessing that the rubble will distribute the weight > adequately. No so? It seems that that design would keep it from > heaving > as well as the other would. > > The advantages of the design, if it works, are several: first, I > need > pour less concrete and use less rebar. Second, I can lay the footing > drain > and the septic pipe and start filling the trench back up with rubble > now, > in the winter, while the ground is frozen. It'll settle in spring, > but > that's okay, because I'm not putting anything on top of it until > spring. > But I have some big events happening in May which will take much of my > > time, and I want to get as far ahead as possible. > > Thoughts? > > -Speireag. > > 0>>>>>>(--------------------- > Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) > > Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. > Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig > agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 15:03:41 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15550 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:03:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA20860 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:02:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05962; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:57:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:53:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05611 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:53:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05607 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:53:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.22] (mke-1-6.binc.net [208.142.229.22]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA10865 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:57:52 -0600 Message-Id: <199712301957.NAA10865@glacier.binc.net> Subject: GBlist: Point of Demand H2o heaters Date: Tue, 30 Dec 97 14:09:14 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 984 These H2O heaters have been mentioned a few times recently on the list. I'm interested to know of any successful residential installations y'all have experience with. The products I have seen over the years were either very expensive- usually designed for commercial use; or designed for the mobil home industry, and not up to standards for a single family residence I would care to put my name behind. It's an idea which I think makes a great deal of inherent sense, and I know it is used alot in the U.K. Perhaps listers have specifics? Thanks, Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 15:16:41 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15718 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:16:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA24188 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:15:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06704; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:10:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:07:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06307 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:06:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06301 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:06:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA76560; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:10:03 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:10:02 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Ulrich Brandenberger Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Green Insurance In-Reply-To: <8625657D.00618F0F.00@internet-503.interliant.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 985 Ulrich: We are about to start talking to 2 insurance companies (one is called Zurich Canada) about sustainable homes and green buildings and how this would affect: 1) policies & premiums 2) the insurance industry at large based not on theory, but on actual design/build/living experience. With a signature like yours, is your insurance company already (interested in) addressing green buildings and sustainable housing? Is your company a leader in the field? Do you have a North American office? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Ulrich Brandenberger wrote: > > Ulrich Brandenberger > Environmental Protection Advisor > SR Logistics Environmental Unit > Swiss Reinsurance Company > Mythenquai 50/60 > CH-8022 Zurich > Switzerland > Phone: +41 1 285 2847 > Fax: +41 1 285 4711 > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 15:19:26 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15757 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:19:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA24925 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:18:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06963; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:13:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:09:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06494 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from teal.cr.usgs.gov (teal.cr.usgs.gov [159.189.176.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06474 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:09:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from brdsmtp2.cr.usgs.gov by teal.cr.usgs.gov (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA08370; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:13:48 -0700 Received: from ccMail by brdsmtp2.cr.usgs.gov (IMA Internet Exchange 2.11 Enterprise) id 0001A9A9; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:12:23 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:12:16 -0700 Message-ID: <0001A9A9.@usgs.gov> From: FROG@usgs.gov (FROG) Subject: Re: GBlist: Point of Demand H2o heaters To: "GB List" , Chris & Ruth Koehn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 986 We used a small model Poloma (I think that was the name) propane heater for about 6 years in our house, we upgraded about 2 years ago to an Aquastar with larger capacity for heating water. Both had/are working fine, neither needing any form of maintenance. You get less hot water coming out when you are running 2 faucets at once, but that's physics for you. sam 0< 0- 0< 0- 0< 0- 0< ->>) ->>) ->>) ->>) ->>) ->>) ->>) L L L L L L L Sam Droege FROG@USGS.GOV w 301-497-5840 h 410-798-6759 fax 301-497-5784 PWRC, 12100 Beech Forest Dr., Laurel, Md 20708 Http://www.mp1-pwrc.usgs.gov 'Is it he?' quoth one, 'Is this the man? By him who died on cross, With his cruel bow he laid full low The harmless Albatross. -Coleridge ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: GBlist: Point of Demand H2o heaters Author: Chris & Ruth Koehn at NBS-Internet-Gateway Date: 12/30/97 2:09 PM These H2O heaters have been mentioned a few times recently on the list. I'm interested to know of any successful residential installations y'all have experience with. The products I have seen over the years were either very expensive- usually designed for commercial use; or designed for the mobil home industry, and not up to standards for a single family residence I would care to put my name behind. It's an idea which I think makes a great deal of inherent sense, and I know it is used alot in the U.K. Perhaps listers have specifics? Thanks, Chris Koehn Top Ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 15:28:14 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15869 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:28:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA27428 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:27:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA07480; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:18:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA07141 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:18:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA07135 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:18:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA19656; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:21:40 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:21:39 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Chris & Ruth Koehn Cc: GB List Subject: Re: GBlist: Point of Demand H2o heaters In-Reply-To: <199712301957.NAA10865@glacier.binc.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 987 Chris: There are also the above that do not have to use the cold water line. In fact there are some that actually sense incoming water (ie. preheated by solar, geothermal heat pump, etc.) and add only enough BTus to achieve the desired (and set at point-of-use) output temperatures. I have no real-world experience yet, but perhaps someone else does? We are at the research and discussion stages with 2 manufacturers. Both 220 VAC and 120 VAC are available. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Chris & Ruth Koehn wrote: > > These H2O heaters have been mentioned a few times recently on the list. > I'm interested to know of any successful residential installations y'all > have experience with. The products I have seen over the years were either > very expensive- usually designed for commercial use; or designed for the > mobil home industry, and not up to standards for a single family > residence I would care to put my name behind. > > It's an idea which I think makes a great deal of inherent sense, and I > know it is used alot in the U.K. Perhaps listers have specifics? > > Thanks, > > Chris Koehn > Top Ridge > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 15:39:08 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15985 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:39:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA00293 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:38:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08315; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:33:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:29:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA07800 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:28:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07795 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:28:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.104.26] (usrts1p26.port.net [207.237.104.26]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA05853; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:33:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712302033.PAA05853@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: GBlist: Re: Blue Maxx Date: Tue, 30 Dec 97 15:35:56 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Beverly A. Weiter" , "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 988 >Hi, all, > >Recently I have been following the progress of several homes being built >here in S. Florida using a product called Blue Maxx. This, along with >several other similar products, is an interlocking foam block which is >in-filled with concrete. They claim to incorporate recycled content and >to be non-toxic. They also claim to be very energy efficient and, >important here, hurricane resistant. > >I have just been approached by a chemically sensitive client who has >asked me to >work with her builder in an advisory capacity. My question is, are these >systems 1. >as energy efficient as they claim, 2. safe for chemically sensitive >owners 3. considered to be at all environmentally sensitive? > >Any thoughts? > >Beverly Weiter >Environs Interiors Inc. >Boca Raton, FL >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > Beverly, I too am interested in these ICFs (Insulated Concrete Forms). I am gathering info on them for possible use in northern Vermont. I gather BlueMaxx is one of the most popular. The only possible toxicity would come from the plastic foams used in the insulation component. Insects are also a possible problem here. Although there is one ICF product which uses neutralized and mineralized wood shavings bonded by cement instead of foam as the forming wall which would contain the concrete core. The product is called Durisol. They're out of Hamilton, Ontario. (905 521-0999). They do have a foam insulation insert available that you probably could do without in Florida. They claim 100% non-toxicity , high wind resistance and not appetizing to insects. ICF in general are discussed in the Oct 97 Energy Design Update., which mentions a book called > Insulating Concrete Forms for Residential Design and Construction by Dr. Pieter VanderWerf < which is an excellent overview although Durisol is not included in the book. Amazon.com has the book. I hope we can get some other replies on the ICF envelope along the lines of the What's next and SIP technology threads. Its a hot new technology that looks promising but should you be the first on your block and is it a viable alternative to sticks or SIPs? Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 15:41:12 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA16053 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:41:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA00818 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:40:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08582; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:35:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:31:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA08019 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:31:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from UPIMSSMTPSYS04 (upimssmtpsys04.email.msn.com [207.68.152.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA08010 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:31:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR04 - 207.68.143.160 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:33:53 -0800 Received: from GFX-CH - 153.35.8.33 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:33:47 -0800 From: "carmine vasile" To: , "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Spinach Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:35:17 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <09eb14733201ec7UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 989 Hello Mike & Jean: See also Home Energy Magazine, July/August 1997 for several articles on water heating systems. ******************* Where's the logic? ******************* I've been reading the GBList chit-chat on water heat efficiency/comparison & super-insulation. The Super-Insulation arguments make sense --- super-insulate a house & down-size the heating system since it no longer must also heat the "Great Outdoors". The Water Heating arguments must be examined, for they deal with water heater efficiency, whereas 80-90% of the primary energy is destined to heat the "Great Underground", to wit: "According to DOE's Energy Information Administration (EIA), electric water heaters provided 45% of US residential water heating needs in 1995. The EIA estimates that in 1995 residential water heaters in the US consumed 740 TWh of energy and commercial water heaters consumed 320 TWh. Approximately 80-90% of all hot water energy goes down the drain, carrying with it up to 955 TWh of energy in the US alone." [See http://www.caddet-ee.org/newsdesk/nw497_05.htm ] With 80-90% of primary waste, shouldn't water heater arguments address cutting waste, rather than is heater "A" 5-10% more efficient than heater "B"? The above estimate of 955 Billion kWh of annual waste is akin to super-insulating millions of houses, then leaving some of their windows open ---- yet there are no Green Building Standards for "insulating" water heating systems so they don't heat sewers ******************* Where's the logic? ******************* Finally, most people don't realize peak shower loads on some combination space & water heating system are several times larger than peak space heating loads of super-insulated houses. Consequently, existing water heater standards & comparisons become questionable when wastewater heat recycling is employed, because water heater loads are changed so dramatically. [See http://oikos.com/gfx/tests.html ] Regards, Carmine ===================================================== Dr. Carmine Vasile, CEO Voice: 516-758-6271 WaterFilm Energy Inc. Fax: 516-758-0438 P.O. Box 48 Email: gfx-ch@msn.com Oakdale, NY 11769 ===================================================== -----Original Message----- From: Mike O'Brien To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tuesday, December 30, 1997 11:45 AM Subject: GBlist: Spinach >Hi, Jean-- > >I appreciate your temperate response to my impatience. I will try to help >you find the information you are looking for. Got your spinach ready? > >To compare tankless water heaters: > >1. Point your web browser to >http://www.eren.doe.gov/consumerinfo/rebriefs/bc1.html for the Energy >Efficiency and Renewable Energy Network bulletin on tankless water heaters. >This descriptive document explains how to evaluate the heaters, and >includes further references to NTIS (National Technical Information >Service) and NBS (National Bureau of Standards) test information. > >2. Order a copy of the GAMA (Gas Appliance Manufacturers Association) >"Consumer Directory of Certified Energy Efficiency Ratings for Residential >Heating and Water Heating Equipment". This directory includes current >manufacurers' test results using standard US DOE efficiency test procedures >for all types of water heaters, including tankless. It is published twice >yearly for $5 by GAMA, 1901 N. Moore St., Arlington VA 22209 (703)525-9565. > >3. If you are handy with spreadsheet or database programs, you can access >the California Energy Commission efficiency ratings at >ftp://energy.ca.gov/pub/efftech/appliance/. These ratings cover thousands >of weater heater models so they are big and unwieldy, but comprehensive. > >4. Order a copy of the bulletins, "Comparing Water Heating Costs in Oregon" >and "Buying a New Water Heater" from the Oregon State University Energy >Extension Program, 800 NE Oregon St., Box #10 Portland, OR 97232 >(503)731-4104. The comparison bulletin lists the 10-year life cycle cost >for all types of water heaters, including gas and electric tankless. Your >local county extension office may have similar information. > >Please let me know if you would like information on performing your own >life-cycle analysis. > >Best, Mike > >O'Brien & Associates >Environmental Building Consultants >Earth Smart Program >obrien@hevanet.com > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 15:48:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA16193 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:48:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA02493 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:47:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09295; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:42:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:38:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA08756 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:38:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08749; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:37:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA78748; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:41:27 -0700 Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:41:26 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Speireag Cc: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List Subject: GBlist: Re: Rubble Trench Variations In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 990 Further to below, all of our rubble trenches (for either wooden or concrete grade beams) in Alberta (Freezing Index = 1,791 DD, 10,000 HDD, imperial) have gone down 2 feet. Why does your version go down 5 feet in your mild climate (FI = 560 (?) DD)? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Speireag wrote: > Okay, so my rubble trench goes down five feet, and the trench is dug. > Rather than put footings way down there, why can I not fill it with rubble, ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 16:52:39 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA16911 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:52:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA22032 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:51:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11655; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:46:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:42:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11314 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:42:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11310 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:42:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-31.topher.net [208.199.183.237]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA13784; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:39:44 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:39:44 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199712302139.PAA13784@mail.topher.net> X-Sender: ewestbrook@mail.topher.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Jean Gallagher" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Elena Westbrook Subject: Re: GBlist: DON'T FORGET THE CROW Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 991 At 09:33 AM 12/30/97 -0700, Jean Gallagher wrote: >Mike--looks like I've been aced! I'll let you know how crow and spinach hash >tastes. I haven't looked at the sources you mentioned, but they are >apparently exactly what I've been looking for. Jean, we didn't get Mike's message. Can you copy me and Paul and PWest@topher.net? Thanks! ---Elena Westbrook, ELS WordWright Communications EWestbrook@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 17:00:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA17051 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:00:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA25117 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:59:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12299; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:54:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:50:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11977 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:50:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11969 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 16:50:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA08524; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:55:42 -0800 Message-ID: <34A96C89.11D4DCDA@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:50:01 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: Ulrich Brandenberger , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Insurance X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 992 What would be the criteria or benefits by which an insurance company would offer reductions in premiums? The only thing I can think of that might have a statistical effect would be that green homes might in general be better constructed (because there construction is less production oriented at this point?) and therefore there might be some related reduction in claims? I can't see the industry taking a proactive stance on this unless it can be shown to relate to profits - shareholders wouldn't stand for it plus the fact that the industry does not have that kind of history. Look at how overextended they are in the event of any major seismic activity on the west coast. I can see the basis for competitive mortgage rates but I would cynically add that such a practice is probably more related to consumer profile i.e. that a client interested in financing the luxuries of green construction fits a low risk profile. I admit it would be nice to somehow direct the profits of mortgage and insur. institutions to the greening of our world rather than their own - but at this point corporate practice is legally bound to inhabit their own sphere of profit. Jorg, please keep us informed as to the interest these companies show and what the basis might be for their interest. Thanks John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Ulrich: We are about to start talking to 2 insurance companies (one is > called > Zurich Canada) about sustainable homes and green buildings and how > this would > affect: > 1) policies & premiums > 2) the insurance industry at large > based not on theory, but on actual design/build/living experience. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 17:26:02 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA17397 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:26:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA02575 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:25:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13381; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:20:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:16:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13072 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:16:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13067 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:16:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.136] (1Cust136.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.136]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA21881; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:20:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199712302220.OAA21881@germany.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Blue Maxx Date: Tue, 30 Dec 97 14:24:12 -0000 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "C. Dodge" , "Beverly A. Weiter" , "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 993 Beverly/Clarence Oikos offers a good deal of basic information on ICFs, including several articles in the Energy Source Builder newsletter. Dozens of ICF companies are listed in REDI, including the distributor for Blue Maxx in the SE (who happens to be a featured company). >a book called > Insulating Concrete Forms for Residential Design >and Construction by Dr. Pieter VanderWerf < which is an excellent >overview although Durisol is not included in the book. >Amazon.com has the book. Durisol is currently featured in the Product Gallery and _two_ books by VanderWerf are available to purchase through the Iris Catalog. Oikos will be a good place to start your research on ICfs. Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 17:54:24 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA18132 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:54:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA09829 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:53:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14582; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:47:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:43:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14171 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:43:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14165 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:43:46 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:33:32 EST To: terrain@cow-net.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Green Insurance and other VALUES Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 994 John Salmen wrote: snip << What would be the criteria or benefits by which an insurance company would offer reductions in premiums? The only thing I can think of that might have a statistical effect would be that green homes might in general be better constructed (because there construction is less production oriented at this point?) and therefore there might be some related reduction in claims? >> snip John, The insurance industry relies on DATA more than most, and your point about longevity is critical. A few additional observations: 1) Are we collecting a "green construction database" from which the insurance industry could periodically assess liability reduction? From where I sit the ROI they care about is directly proportional to risk reduction. Their first question is (should be): "What costs are deferred/delayed that might be put toward our bottom line?" I don't mean to sound cynical but isn't THAT the common question? 2) IF green buildings DO last longer/are healthier/consume less energy/result in fewer insurance claims/have higher resale value/etc. then WHERE is the database documenting these FACTS? In the spirit of "Begin with the end in mind" and knowing that the beginning was LONG ago, should we now be constructing such a "product" with which to MARKET these messages? If all of these things are (should be) true about green buildings, where's the data for our marketing department(s) to use? Lastly, investors are usually the ones to say "In God We Trust, the rest bring data." Here's truely believing: Great Science Without Great Marketing Is Great Misfortune. Happy Holidays to all!!! Chris Mathis MCSquared 5249 Columbia Road Columbia, MD 21044 301-596-1931 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 17:56:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA18154 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:56:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA10404 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:55:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14857; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:50:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:46:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14420 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:46:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14415 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:46:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA24172; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:52:12 GMT (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:51:21 EST From: John Straube Reply-To: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: GBlist Re: Blue Maxx / Durisol To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: cdodge@interport.net, environs.com@juno.com X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199712302031.PAA08042@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 995 All of the foam ICFs are environmentally sensitive in that they DO produce homes that are much more energy efficient than others. All of the foam ICFs are however, very susceptible to termites (some may be poisoning the foam to stop termites, but this adds to IAQ problems) and can have some fire problems (probably no worse than wood framed). It is not clear how bad polystyrene offgasses, but it should not be terrible. If you follow the guidelines in such books as Your Natural Home, The Healthy House or The Natural House Book, you would not use it. If your client is hyper-sensitive, get some blocks and have the client sleep in a bedroom with them (this is a more sophisticated form of the "sniff test"). As Clarence pointed out, Durisol in Hamilton (just down the road from me) makes an ICF that is completely inert. A Carolina plant should be started by Spring. They no longer use foam inserts, but use encapsulated mineral wool (from the slag generated by Hamilton steel mills) instead. The wall is completely resistant to termites, has a more than 4 hour fire rating, and lots of thermal mass on the inside of most of the insulation. I have done some consulting for them in their quest to improve the product, especially from an environmental and IAQ point of view (since they feel that their 50 years of performance proves the products durability). More info can be found at www.durisol.com and I think they are still on the Oikos website at www.oikos.com. Hope this helps, ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x > >Hi, all, > > > >Recently I have been following the progress of several homes being built > >here in S. Florida using a product called Blue Maxx. This, along with > >several other similar products, is an interlocking foam block which is > >in-filled with concrete. They claim to incorporate recycled content and > >to be non-toxic. They also claim to be very energy efficient and, > >important here, hurricane resistant. > > > >I have just been approached by a chemically sensitive client who has > >asked me to > >work with her builder in an advisory capacity. My question is, are these > >systems 1. > >as energy efficient as they claim, 2. safe for chemically sensitive > >owners 3. considered to be at all environmentally sensitive? > > > >Any thoughts? > > > >Beverly Weiter > >Environs Interiors Inc. > >Boca Raton, FL > Beverly, > > I too am interested in these ICFs (Insulated Concrete Forms). I am > gathering info on them for possible use in northern Vermont. I gather > BlueMaxx is one of the most popular. The only possible toxicity would > come from the plastic foams used in the insulation component. Insects are > also a possible problem here. Although there is one ICF product which > uses neutralized and mineralized wood shavings bonded by cement instead > of foam as the forming wall which would contain the concrete core. The > product is called Durisol. They're out of Hamilton, Ontario. (905 > 521-0999). They do have a foam insulation insert available that you > probably could do without in Florida. They claim 100% non-toxicity , high > wind resistance and not appetizing to insects. > > ICF in general are discussed in the Oct 97 Energy Design Update., which > mentions a book called > Insulating Concrete Forms for Residential Design > and Construction by Dr. Pieter VanderWerf < which is an excellent > overview although Durisol is not included in the book. > Amazon.com has the book. > > I hope we can get some other replies on the ICF envelope along the lines > of the What's next and SIP technology threads. Its a hot new technology > that looks promising but should you be the first on your block and is it > a viable alternative to sticks or SIPs? > > Best Regards, > Clarence Dodge > cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 18:27:19 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA18484 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:27:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA18456 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16646; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:21:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:17:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA16338 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:17:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16334 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.174] (1Cust174.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.174]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA20525 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:22:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199712302322.PAA20525@germany.it.earthlink.net> Subject: GBlist: Re: Blue Maxx / Durisol Date: Tue, 30 Dec 97 15:25:27 -0000 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 996 Durisol sounds a lot like Faswall, which also used a mineralized wood fiber. Does anyone know if there is a connection? Bruce >As Clarence pointed out, Durisol in Hamilton (just down the road from me) >makes an ICF that is completely inert. >The wall is completely resistant to termites, has a more than 4 hour fire >rating, and lots of thermal mass on the inside of most of the insulation. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 18:41:04 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA18675 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:41:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA21732 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:40:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17427; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:35:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:31:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA17074 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:31:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17017 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:29:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.46] (pa-ppp34.hevanet.com [204.119.60.46]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28346 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:54:45 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:51:14 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: GBlist: Opinion re Energy Efficiency Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 997 Hi, Jean-- Seems to me, energy efficient stuff has two types of appeal: --The rational mind prefers the Descartian approach, and happily measures, compares standardized tests, reads field research, and allocates scarce resources accordingly. --The emotional mind prefers the Dionysian approach, and happily chooses based on likes and dislikes, whether water heaters or computer games or paint colors. Aren't both minds valid? If it's OK to choose the $7 shampoo or $5,000 home theatre because you like it, isn't it OK to choose a tankless water heater for the same reason? Why would only the rational model apply? Or even dominate? I like things that are energy efficient. They're elegant. They make me feel good. I like to tinker and experiment with them. They're interesting and fun, more so than TV. They make me think. I enjoy boring my friends with stories about them. I buy different types of compact fluorescents and torture them for amusement. Many people apply economic analysis to energy measures, when they don't on other house items. What's the payback on nicer cabinets? Granted, when allocating other people's money, there needs to be a mutually accepted set of criteria, and dollars are the most common yardstick. However, there isn't even universal agreement on appropriate measures of efficiency and return. Builders usually want to know simple payback, yet they can't say when the payback period is short enough. I personally think that rate of return is a better measure because then one can then compare energy investments with other investments such as stocks or CDs. In houses the payback or return on energy measures gets complicated by the question of appraisal and how much of the initial investment one gets back at resale--e.g., there probably isn't a line on the appraisal form for tankless water heaters. Measures like furnace efficiency don't really mean anything in isolation, in the sense that it's the overall efficiency of the installed system that is what matters. It's more cost-efficient to install a medium efficiency furnace with tight well-insulated ducts than to install a high efficiency furnace with leaky ducts. Although manufacturers tout AFUE and HSPF numbers, they don't tell you that much. Yet, in my experience, it's easier to convince (guys, usually) to spend thousands of dollars on high-efficiency equipment than a few hundred bucks on ductwork. Life Cycle Costing requires complex analysis, so it needs patience to collect the necessary data and go through the procedure. And one should usually do some sensitivity analysis to see how one's assumptions affect the outcome (such as the usage rates Jean mentioned, or the future costs of fuels, or the discount rate for money, or lifetime maintenance costs, etc.) because one wants a robust result that clearly identifies the economically superior choice. I've seen this for some energy measures like showerheads (cost 2 mills per kilowatt-hour saved where 22 mills was the criterion), but on many things the results aren't so clear-cut. I often find that energy measures have more appeal as comfort or health improvements. For example, energy-efficient windows save energy and can be justified on that basis, but they also reduce or eliminate condensation, which keeps sills free of water stains and mildew, which people seem to like. The windows stay warmer on the inside and are more comfortable to live around, which people also like. And they have better weatherstripping which keeps out noise and dust. A cleaner, more comfortable house may have as much or more appeal than a positive life cycle analysis or short payback. In fact, after many years of working with builders I would say that what they really mean when they ask if an energy measure is cost-efficient is, does it compete with other house features that have proven appeal to buyers? So I say, Jean, if you like the idea of a tankless water heater, go for it. You will enjoy having it a lot more than an ordinary water heater. Best, Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Earth Smart Program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 18:43:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA18723 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:43:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA22278 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:42:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17588; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:37:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:33:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA17224 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:33:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17220 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:33:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA12675; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:38:33 -0800 Message-ID: <34A984A3.686E4787@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:32:51 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RCMathis1 CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Green Insurance and other VALUES X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 998 Hi Chris Now who invented the light bulb anyway? Now regarding longevity (and other values) - a green consumer is likely to outlive the balance so some marketing of combined insurance packages might be appropriate. Its difficult to not be cynical. I live on the west coast in a climate that is considered ideal (for our country) and I've long (too long) made jokes about the incipient retirement crowd that will soon be gracing my shores and has long been driving our economy. I've nicknamed this particular group (ones motivated to move to my area) the Bonanza generation. Growing up on watching adults on tv ride horses in treed surroundings pursuing appropriate causes. I'm afraid that this generation will buy up the balance of 2nd growth forest in my area and inadvertently proceed to level it (because horses need fields). But they will put up relatively green structures because it is a sophisticated group and that will be the appropriate cause in the pursuit ( and they will use up the next generations equity in doing so) and they will want these structures done extremely well (because this is after all their last shot before death) and they will be done well because this group is not just sophisticated but also extremely litigious - So my prediction is that greenbuilding will enjoy a bonanza in the new and upcoming years and undoubtedly the interest of developers and financial institutions will again follow. (my money if I had any would go into green alt. health retirement complexes) I hadn't intended to sound so cynical - something about millennium hysteria is getting to me. Best for now and in the new year John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. RCMathis1 wrote: > John Salmen wrote: > > snip << What would be the criteria or benefits by which an insurance > company > would offer reductions in premiums? The only thing I can think of > that > might have a statistical effect would be that green homes might in > general be better constructed (because there construction is less > production oriented at this point?) and therefore there might be some > > related reduction in claims? >> > snip > > John, > The insurance industry relies on DATA more than most, and your point > about > longevity is critical. A few additional observations: > > 1) Are we collecting a "green construction database" from which the > insurance > industry could periodically assess liability reduction? From where I > sit the > ROI they care about is directly proportional to risk reduction. Their > first > question is (should be): "What costs are deferred/delayed that might > be put > toward our bottom line?" I don't mean to sound cynical but isn't THAT > the > common question? > > 2) IF green buildings DO last longer/are healthier/consume less > energy/result > in fewer insurance claims/have higher resale value/etc. then WHERE is > the > database documenting these FACTS? In the spirit of "Begin with the > end in > mind" and knowing that the beginning was LONG ago, should we now be > constructing such a "product" with which to MARKET these messages? If > all of > these things are (should be) true about green buildings, where's the > data for > our marketing department(s) to use? > > Lastly, investors are usually the ones to say "In God We Trust, the > rest bring > data." > > Here's truely believing: > Great Science Without Great Marketing Is Great Misfortune. > > Happy Holidays to all!!! > > Chris Mathis > MCSquared > 5249 Columbia Road > Columbia, MD 21044 > 301-596-1931 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 18:57:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA18850 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:57:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA25425 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:56:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA18156; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:51:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:46:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA17840 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:46:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17836 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:46:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.104.141] (usrts1p141.port.net [207.237.104.141]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA04281 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 18:51:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199712302351.SAA04281@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Blue Maxx Date: Tue, 30 Dec 97 18:53:54 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 999 > Dozens of ICF companies >are listed in REDI, including the distributor for Blue Maxx in the SE Bruce Thanks .....I saw the stuff @ Oikos. There are a slue of them. I am thinking ICFs are a very contractor friendly form of building . I am just getting ready to do the real homework to realistically compare ICF and stick built . I guess I am waiting to see if someone else has already done the work > and probably better than I am going to be able to<. Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 19:31:45 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA19141 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:31:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA03277 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:30:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19233; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:25:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:22:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA18964 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:21:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18959 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:21:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sA6a-p5.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.133]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id TAA06687 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:26:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34A99039.70F9@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:22:17 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Green Insurance Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1000 I've got to agree with John Salmen, I don't understand what liabilities are decreased in these buildings specifically. Chris Mathis wrote: > 2) IF green buildings DO last longer/are healthier/consume less energy/result in fewer insurance claims/have higher resale value/etc. -------------------------------- Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 19:48:17 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA19276 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:48:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA07262 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:47:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19868; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:37:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA19515 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:37:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA19510 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.99.59]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA21277 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 00:42:07 +0000 Message-ID: <34A95E78.BF882E27@which.net> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:50:01 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: HARMONY X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1001 Please can you explain what you mean by tariffs? Malcolm Scott Phil wrote: Mine is an Aquastar and came from Controlled Energy Corp in Vt. at 800-642-3111. One of the reasons it cost more is it came from France (imported, tariffs, etc). ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 19:50:30 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA19292 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:50:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA07793 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:49:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA20095; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:44:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:40:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA19758 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:40:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA19751 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:40:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.25.64.210] (usr2a14.rut.sover.net [206.25.64.210]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA21834; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:45:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 19:45:08 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19971230.141959.6415.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: Re: Blue Maxx Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1002 I encountered the Blue Maxx product at a tradeshow, and was pretty impressed with it. They may be exagerating the R-value a bit, but it is definitely energy efficient. The main drawback of this product, and anything else made from extruded polystyrene foam, is that it is made with HCFCs, which will gradually offgas from the foam over the next few decades or centuries, and contribute to ongoing ozone-depletion. Expanded polystyrene foam (beadboard) is the only one not currently implicated in this problem. Nadav Malin Environmental Building News At 1:23 PM -0500 12/30/97, Beverly A. Weiter wrote: >Hi, all, > >Recently I have been following the progress of several homes being built >here in S. Florida using a product called Blue Maxx. This, along with >several other similar products, is an interlocking foam block which is >in-filled with concrete. They claim to incorporate recycled content and >to be non-toxic. They also claim to be very energy efficient and, >important here, hurricane resistant. > >I have just been approached by a chemically sensitive client who has >asked me to >work with her builder in an advisory capacity. My question is, are these >systems 1. >as energy efficient as they claim, 2. safe for chemically sensitive >owners 3. considered to be at all environmentally sensitive? > >Any thoughts? > >Beverly Weiter >Environs Interiors Inc. >Boca Raton, FL >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 20:30:36 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA19566 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:30:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA17300 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:29:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA21123; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:24:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:20:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA20893 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:20:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA20889 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:20:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.46] (li-ppp21.hevanet.com [204.119.60.202]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14816 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:25:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:22:54 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: GBlist: Research Tools Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1003 Hi, Jean-- You have been very gracious, and I appreciate it very much. I jumped on you pretty hard, and I apologize. Hope you enjoyed the spinach!! I am not a professional researcher; far from it--I stand in awe of my friends who are. Many people I know are knowledgeable specialists--I just report what they tell me! ;^) I use dozens of different sources, and talk on the phone a lot. Some favorites that you would probably find at your library-- Energy Design Update Home Energy Environmental Building News Journal of Light Construction New Scientist Fine Homebuilding ASHRAE Journal. I also have compiled a long list of bookmarks for web sites. I start at a site like the Florida Solar Energy Center (http://alpha.fsec.ucf.edu/), marking the relevant pages on that site, then looking through the links that are listed. Each time a find a new site with good information I bookmark it into a folder in my web browser (actually a program called URL Manager Pro that makes it easy to sort bookmarks). That way I always have some good starting points for looking up a new topic. In my experience the web search engines are inefficient at finding exactly the information you want (or perhaps I just don't understand how to use them skilfully). People listed at web sites usually seem very willing to reply to e-mail questions, and have often been helpful regarding information I couldn't find in print, such as VOC emissions from sheet vinyl flooring. Obviously, the greenbuilding news group is read and responded to by many experts who are (usually) generous in assisting with information. When I use the Multnomah County central library in Portland, I ask the librarians to help me find sources and they often come up with ones I didn't know about. The library has many specialized publications, like the Federal Register (for example, OSHA's proposed IAQ standards, EPA's proposed VOC standards and the NAECA appliance efficiency standards), that I occasionally use. The library terminals now connect to the web, so browsing is free! Electric utilities, energy extension, state energy offices, federal offices like EPA or DOE, assocations like the Energy Efficient Builders Association, NGOs like National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, are all helpful sources. And don't forget Canada--they have great sources like the Canadian Home Builders Association and Federal agencies like Canada Mortgage Home Corporation. Plus, you can read them in French--tres amusant! And last but not least, e-mail me and I'll do my best to reply or direct you to a relevant source. Best, Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Earth Smart Program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 20:41:10 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA19662 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:41:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA19491 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:40:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA21580; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:35:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:31:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA21304 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:31:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from UPIMSSMTPSYS04 (upimssmtpsys04.email.msn.com [207.68.152.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA21299 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 20:31:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR04 - 207.68.143.160 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:56:18 -0800 Received: from GFX-CH - 153.35.8.33 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 12:56:13 -0800 From: "carmine vasile" To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , "Chris & Ruth Koehn" Cc: "GB List" Subject: Re: GBlist: Point of Demand H2o heaters Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 15:57:46 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <0a1b81356201ec7UPIMSSMTPUSR04@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1004 Hello Jorg, Chris & Ruth Koehn: At http://oikos.com/gfx/links.html you'll find links for the following instant water heaters: Acutemp SEISCO ATMOR SUPREME MYSON I have been using a 15 kW Acutemp for combined space & water heating for about 21/2 years now and saved over 56 & 50 million Btu/yr at the point-of-use [Patchogue NY], as compared to the old tankless coil oil system that was bypassed. In late winter, the shower load increases to 21 kW when our water supply temperature falls to around 42 deg. F, but GFX cuts the load to 10.5kW, so we have power to spare..... AND, the lights don't dim, there's no standby loss, no noise, no smell & no mildew on the bathroom wall, since the vents in the adjacent utility room could be sealed with the oil burner off. Regards, Carmine ===================================================== Dr. Carmine Vasile, CEO Voice: 516-758-6271 WaterFilm Energy Inc. Fax: 516-758-0438 P.O. Box 48 Email: gfx-ch@msn.com Oakdale, NY 11769 ===================================================== -----Original Message----- From: Jorg D. Ostrowski To: Chris & Ruth Koehn Cc: GB List Date: Tuesday, December 30, 1997 3:25 PM Subject: Re: GBlist: Point of Demand H2o heaters >Chris: There are also the above that do not have to use the cold water line. In >fact there are some that actually sense incoming water (ie. preheated by solar, >geothermal heat pump, etc.) and add only enough BTus to achieve the desired >(and set at point-of-use) output temperatures. I have no real-world experience >yet, but perhaps someone else does? We are at the research and discussion >stages with 2 manufacturers. Both 220 VAC and 120 VAC are available. >_________________________________________________________ >Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect >- in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. >- 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors >- college campus and office tower recofit under construction >- living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office >ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 >Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm >e-mail: >______________________________________________________ > On Tue, 30 Dec 1997, Chris & Ruth Koehn wrote: >> >> These H2O heaters have been mentioned a few times recently on the list. >> I'm interested to know of any successful residential installations y'all >> have experience with. The products I have seen over the years were either >> very expensive- usually designed for commercial use; or designed for the >> mobil home industry, and not up to standards for a single family >> residence I would care to put my name behind. >> >> It's an idea which I think makes a great deal of inherent sense, and I >> know it is used alot in the U.K. Perhaps listers have specifics? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Chris Koehn >> Top Ridge >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >> Environmental Building News and Oikos >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> >> > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 22:06:32 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA20766 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:06:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA08820 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:05:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24067; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:00:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:56:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA23803 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:56:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA23798 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 21:56:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.124] (pm0a1.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.101]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA21350; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:01:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:01:03 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34A96C89.11D4DCDA@cow-net.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: John Salmen From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Insurance Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1005 Regarding John Salmen's and Jorg's postings on insurance premiums, the only program I've heard about that is remotely relevant (lower insurance premiums for green buildings) is reduced flood insurance rates in coastal South Carolina as a result of responsible stormwater management practiced at Dewees Island. I admit I'm still confused as to why the lower rates would apply in this particular case (apparently, the relevant federal agency reduced premiums in the whole county--including mainland--based on what was done on Dewees Island), but I can see how a strong case could be made for reduced flooding _downstream_ of areas where green development is practiced. Reduced flooding will occur if impermeable surfaces are limited, natural stormwater infiltration is provided for, etc. It's possible that the Puget Sound region has something like that. -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 22:16:52 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA20827 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:16:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA11284 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:16:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24607; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:10:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:07:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA24240 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:06:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24236 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:06:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.3] (blf3.acadia.net [205.217.217.3]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA22394 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:11:41 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:09:49 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Better, long-lived houses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1006 Long quote follows (sorry): >David, you said.. > >>The trouble is, try convincing a banker to finance a house with 12 inch >>thick walls, a 16 inch thick roof, and no central heating system - just a >>Monitor or a fan coil connected to the water heater, etc. Try convincing a >>realtor that such a house has resale value, and try getting an appraiser to >>find a "comparable" in the neighborhood. > >Well, you know, you should try... it really isn't that difficult. About 15 >years ago I designed and built just such a house here in western New >England (it actually had electric radiant heating panels which served the >micro heating load) > >I kept very careful track of what it cost to build this house - right down >to having the crew keep their hours for any "superinsulating" activity >separate. I tracked then daily, and did the same for material costs. I >compared the result to a "base case" typical model (2x6 walls ...etc.) >The result was a 5.8% surcharge for superinsulation and sealing. I am sure >we could do better nowadays -(maybe Amory is right about it even being a >zero upcharge... but Amory et al can be a bit fast and loose at times). The >data on the house described was published in one of Craig Sieben's >"Superinsulated Buildinf Newsletter" s that were circulating at the time. > >Still, the added cost, if there is an added cost, is still small. It is >tantamount to any number of finish upgrades that people make choices about >all the time - granite counter over laminate for example. Bankers and >realtors don't really care, in fact they hardly even know. > >It is the value system of the person in charge of the project that matters. > >Bruce Coldham (end of quote) Dear Bruce, Thanks for your thoughtful post. I agree with everything you said. My experience over the past 20 years or so is very similar to yours. After doing about 150 projects, I'm convinced that making buildings energy-efficient is not technically or financially difficult. Making the built environment comprehensively Green is lots more difficult, but thanks to the efforts of folks like this list's participants, we're on our way. The comment you quoted above was in response to John Abrams' post about Where Do We Go From Here? I understood him to be asking, how do we move from being pioneers to effecting change on a mass scale? My comments were in that context, and I've been trying to say that for mass change to occur, a key "leverage point" is to change the mental models of people who affect building on the macro scale: mortgage financiers, real estate professionals, code enforcement and permitting professionals, hardware distributors and retailers, etc. Any one of us can influence the occasional banker, appraiser, etc. Perhaps that's how change will come about - slowly and incrementally, one actor at a time. But like me, you're probably frustrated at times by the slow pace of change and all the changes in the opposite direction - toward 5000 sq. ft. houses for 2 people, 4 car garages, tearing down old buildings instead of fixing them, etc. etc. So anyway, I'm trying, and I'm really glad that you are too. But I think that John's question was really important, and we'd all better think about it. Happy New Year. - David ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 22:23:18 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA20867 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:23:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA12889 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:22:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24987; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:17:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:13:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA24686 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:13:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24680 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:13:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.3] (blf3.acadia.net [205.217.217.3]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA22693 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:18:15 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:16:22 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Green Insurance Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1007 Some candidate arguments for "Green Insurance": 1. Some green building techniques, e.g, dense-pack insulation, timber-frame structure, etc., may result in better fire ratings of construction assemblies. Are there data on this? Are these data arguments in favor of reduced premiums? 2. Analogous to Alex's post on "downstream" benefits: my brother is a global climate researcher, and tells me of the intense interest the insurance industry is taking in global climate change. (They don't care if it isn't 100% proven - they're concernened that it is over 50% probable.) Would energy-conserving, forest-preserving structures help offset global climate change risk, and so deserve a premium reduction? I know - very academic. Just food for thought. - David ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 22:41:14 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA21119 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:41:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA18055 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:40:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25668; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:35:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:31:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA25324 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:31:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailnfs0.tiac.net (mailnfs0.tiac.net [199.0.65.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25320 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:31:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from p15.ts1.nhamp.MA.tiac.com (p1.ts1.nhamp.MA.tiac.com [207.60.24.98]) by mailnfs0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with SMTP id WAA08114; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:36:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by p15.ts1.nhamp.MA.tiac.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BD1572.F13E7820@p15.ts1.nhamp.MA.tiac.com>; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:33:25 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD1572.F13E7820@p15.ts1.nhamp.MA.tiac.com> From: Duncan Prahl To: "'TBren46501'" , "'jabrams@vineyard.net'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: What Next? Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:32:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id WAA25321 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1008 Finally a track that I can rant on. Previous posts on this thread have dealt with financing, consumers, paradigm shifts, developer mentality, and ( as Terry so eloquently stated) "where I live and confusion." So here is my take on it: Consumers follow a herd mentality. Housing has been ingrained in the American culture as an investment that can outperform (or at least keep up with) other investment options (i.e. stock market). The construction industry has not experienced the consolidation and integration that other industries have undergone during the last 150 years (i.e. cars, food processing, news, etc.). It's still the wild west out there in many respects. There exists an incredible financial opportunity for the right organization ( or group thereof) who can capitalize on giving consumers a better way of buying, owning and living in housing (and commercial buildings, for that matter) but it requires a comprehensive shift in the position a "developer" takes in the marketplace. Now I'm not an MBA (or from the CIA, although I am a card carrying member of the AIA) but it seems to me that what banks do is essentially get a consumer to give them a long term promise to give them a certain amount of cash each month, which they can sell to other investors for the present value of that promise. The security is the "value" of the asset, allowing for the downpayment that the buyer puts down on the property. The investors (insurance companies, big hedge funds? etc.) want a return with little risk on an asset they know can be liquidated. Given that knowledge, I start to look at trends in long term care facilities (a real growth opportunity because people are getting older and nobody wants to take care of them). Old people are signing their retirement savings away for the security that a 20 - 40 year place to live affords them. The trouble is they are still paying utilities and living with the comfort (or lack thereof) amenities that the developer decided to build in at the get go. (I can't help but think of a Lstiburek case study of a nursing home that couldn't open because of multiple fundamental design flaws, but.....) So - What I have decided is that consumers need a paradigm shift in how they can purchase housing. The development company I want to start will offer: A fixed return on downpayment investment to consumer (probably 5 - 8%, like a CD) A single entity that has a long term interest in the community, tied to economic development interests and sustaining local industry and jobs And all I want is: A monthly payment from the consumer that includes all costs associated with homeownership (housing, utilities, cable, telecom, insurance, maintenance, perhaps others I haven't thought of) that allows me to make educated decisions about where I can make the best 400 year investments for the housing I am providing to these people. To do this I need: Enough venture capital to allow me to buy a controlling interest in the 10 largest publicly held residential building companies in the US. Cooperative agreements with the 20 largest building materials manufacturers / suppliers / equipment manufacturers to use the best stuff they can make / develop. Sounds good but it smacks of either a communist country, an old fashion company town, or a big antitrust suit. And as Harvey said, this is just me talking, not a representation of anyone I am affiliated with. Thanks for listening Duncan Prahl, AIA Spectrum Design Collaborative, LLC Northampton, MA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 30 22:50:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA21236 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:50:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA20716 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:49:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA26303; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:44:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:40:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA26033 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:40:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA26029 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:40:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sf11.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.108]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA26386 for ; Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:45:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34A9BEEB.3728@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 22:41:31 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Where do we go from here Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1009 David Foley wrote: I've been trying to say that for mass change to occur, a key "leverage point" is to change the mental models of people who affect building on the macro scale: mortgage financiers, real estate professionals, code enforcement and permitting professionals, hardware distributors and retailers, etc. I disagree with this fixation on the "powers that be" scenario, the one critical player to leverage is the buyer/homeowner. Like all other products, housing is market driven. If you create a market, the other forces will rush to fill it. The "Field of Dreams" logic will not work here either, you must develope the demand for the product first, although every new project that succeeds, is one more education tool. We must educate the average home buyer on the real benefits of Green Building, they will convince the other players in our drama. We live in a market driven economy, the buyers buck is paramount. That may seem crass, but it is absolutely proven to be true, if the buyer wants a product the marketers(bankers, developers, architects, and suppliers all fit here) will meet the demand. A basic change in the way a homebuyer looks at housing. So the better question is: Where does the average homebuyer get their perfect dream house image and how can Green Builders influence that image making? I believe once you answer this, the rest will fall into place. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 31 08:46:28 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA28212 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:46:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA28171 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:45:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06547; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:40:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:35:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA06071 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:34:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06067; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.198] (ka3-95.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.95]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id IAA01697; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:39:37 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:39:26 -0500 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List From: Speireag Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Rubble Trench Variations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id IAB06068 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1010 Sgrìobh Jorg D. Ostrowski: >Further to below, all of our rubble trenches (for either wooden or concrete >grade beams) in Alberta (Freezing Index = 1,791 DD, 10,000 HDD, imperial) >have gone down 2 feet. Why does your version go down 5 feet in your mild >climate (FI = 560 (?) DD)? Interesting. Well, until this moment I had always read in the straw bales publications that although Frank Lloyd Wright originally designed the rubble trench foundation to go above frost line, it was now considered advisable to make it extend below the frost line. The implication was that buildings had heaved. In our area the frost line is 4.5 feet down, so I took it down to five feet. The frost generally doesn't go nearly so low, but the local codes generally require that you plan for the coldest winters on record. I'm not sure what a Freezing Index is, though I know what HHDs are. How far does the frost line go down in Albert (deeper, I'm sure). Do you go so shallow because the heated house prevents the ground from freezing down so far? That makes perfect sense to me, but around here they pretend that you are going to build the house and then let it stand cold for a few years. No one in our area has ever done a rubble trench foundation before, and the building inspector had never heard of them. In retrospect, he's been so friendly and helpful that we probably could have gotten away with just about anything which was factually reasonable and which we could back up. But when we went in with our specs, we wanted to provide as little ammo as possible for any naysayers. And, at the time, we thought that five foot depth was not going to be the horrendous digging which it turned out to be. If it was not necessary, well, then we spent a lot of money needlessly. Ah, well. Live and learn. Everyone else take note! -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 31 09:24:38 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA28929 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:24:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA04335 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:23:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07446; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:18:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:14:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07221 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:14:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from CLEMSON.EDU (mail.clemson.edu [130.127.28.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07217 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:14:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.clemson.edu ([206.240.183.38]) by CLEMSON.EDU (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA16002; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:19:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:19:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19971231091919.37873140@mail.clemson.edu> X-Sender: cdewitt@mail.clemson.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Speireag From: Craig DeWitt Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Rubble Trench Variations Cc: Green Building List Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1011 A circa 1988 publication on Permanent Wood Foundations by the Wood Products Promotion Council shows examples of foundations sitting on deep rubble trenches. The rubble/trench extends to the frost line, while the bottom of the foundation wall is only 9 inches below grade. I think a concrete pad on top of a rubble-filled trench can be a workable option, compared to a concrete footing at the bottom of a deep trench. I guess I'm wondering what the concrete would add. Craig DeWitt South Carolina - where we say "whats a frost line?" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 31 09:43:51 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA29156 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:43:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA07568 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:42:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08061; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:38:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:34:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07778 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:33:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV (dcsmtp.wictok7.epa.gov [161.80.160.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07773 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:33:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:38:09 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:36:38 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Insurance -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1012 A good deal of work has been done over the last couple of years with the international insurance industry. They are one industry that has the comparable financial clout to counterbalance the energy production industry when their long-term goals are at odds. (i.e. climate change) The insurance industry has a strong long-term interest in reducing fossil fuel burning and CO2 emissions because of the losses from severe weather events. The trick is how to dovetail the long-term diffuse benefits with the shorter term competitive needs. I recommend you visit the Lawrence Berkeley National Lab web site devoted to this issue: http://eande.lbl.gov/CBS/Climate-Insurance/ci.html LBNL has identified numerous "No-Regrets" opportunities that reduce energy use while simultaneously reducing risk of insurance loss. Some simple examples: - Insulating water pipes reduces the risk of freezing and resultant water damage. - Better attic insulation prevents ice dams from forming, preventing roof and structural damage. - More efficient buildings will withstand extreme weather events and power outages longer, reducing the risk of death or injury from freezing or heatstroke (remember Chicago 1996). My best wishes for a terrific 1998 to all! Steve O. __________ Contact Information: --PLEASE NOTE NEW PHONE NUMBERS-- Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs U. S. EPA - 6202J 401 M Street, SW Washington, DC 20460 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epamail.epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html __________________________ >>> John Salmen 12/30/97 04:50pm >>> What would be the criteria or benefits by which an insurance company would offer reductions in premiums? The only thing I can think of that might have a statistical effect would be that green homes might in general be better constructed (because there construction is less production oriented at this point?) and therefore there might be some related reduction in claims? ... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 31 10:15:23 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA29433 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:15:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA14013 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:14:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08883; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:05:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08665 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:05:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08661 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:05:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.23] (mke-1-7.binc.net [208.142.229.23]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA06848; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:09:30 -0600 Message-Id: <199712311509.JAA06848@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Insurance Date: Wed, 31 Dec 97 09:20:55 -0000 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "David M. Foley" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1013 David, Regarding your first question, about ins. co. data on green techniques: I have been working with Gerald Meyer from the Boeckh Co, here in Wis. Their business is to provide information to insurance companies which helps them estimate value and insurability of homes and buildings. Gerald's particular mission is to work on providing better data on "alternative" homebuilding systems, including timbers and panels- my specialty. Boeckh seems to be a leader in this field. Gerald showed me a manual which is in current use by insurance companies to estimate value. The information it contained about "alternative housing" is pathetically inadequate. It showed a general lack of understanding of alternative systems, and an unconscious bias against them, which I believe only raises eyebrows at insurance companies, who would thus prefer, I imagine, not to even write policies for such houses. All alternative housing tends to get lumped together. So the timber/panel homes I build are, at least unconsciously, being compared to the geodesic domes of the '70's. I'm working hard to provide Gerald with accurate information on costs and benefits of my homes. I'm hoping my efforts result in a better manual, next time around. It's a delicate affair though, because I don't want to overwhelm him with data and information which is too esoteric. What he needs to be provided with is simple, consise information, which can be easily used by insurance companies to calculate value. Chris Koehn Top ridge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 31 11:12:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA00475 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:12:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28880 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:11:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11288; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:06:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:02:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10886 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:02:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10881; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:01:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA14487; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:06:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-04.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.132) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma014348; Wed Dec 31 10:05:40 1997 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19971231110454.006cd014@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: eeb98ord@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:04:57 -0500 To: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion Howard (EEBA)" Subject: GBlist: PEAR 87a program for download (update) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1014 LBNL "Program for Energy Analysis of Residences" PEAR 87a ---------------------------------------------------------- Thanks to the comments of several alert list members, I have discovered a problem getting you the LBNL-PEAR software as previously offered about December 15. I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused. The files were uploaded to our website, but the HTML revision was inadvertently left the old version. This error is now corrected, and the FTP-resources page is updated and should work properly. Please contact me directly if you have problems with downloading the files in your web-browser. Link to: Click on the file(s) you want. Select: "save file" and we recommend you place the file into a "temp" directory where you can then properly extract it. ** Web Links to WinZIP are also available at the above URL. ** Virus checked using McAfee Virus Scan 3.14 with latest DAT files. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: Howard Associates makes no warranty expressed or implied on the fitness of, or technical results stemming from the downloading and use of any of the files on its "FTP-resources" web page. These files and links are offered for the educational use of visitors to NRG-builder.com and are not for resale. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Contact: Bion Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology Web: ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 31 12:12:46 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA01268 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:12:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA14705 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:11:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13520; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:06:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:02:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13219 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:02:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13215 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 12:02:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA24194; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:07:46 -0800 Message-ID: <34AA7A86.B40581A4@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 09:01:58 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: STEPHEN OFFUTT CC: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Insurance -Reply X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1015 I recommend to anyone interested in this issue to look at the LBNL insurance link that Stephen gave (below) especially the 1996 article by Mills http://eande.lbl.gov/CBS/Climate-Insurance/GoingGreen.html and the 1997 article by Mills and Knoepfel http://eande.lbl.gov/CBS/PUBS/Mills-Knoepfel.pdf It would seem that most of the criteria by which a building could be considered green form some positive relationship to insurability; either the building itself, the occupants, or general issues of energy conservation (if the industry does take a proactive stance to global warming!) Mills has compiled a list of practices and relationship to insurance criteria and as you look through them it would seem easy to expand on the list. Basically any aspect of construction that could seem to relate to the health and safety of the occupants both within a building and secondarily as in reduction of exterior pollutants, etc. or the health of the planet (global warming, etc.) which about sums up green construction. It would be interesting to see how the application of insurance criteria could direct green practice. One example of this: for the insurance industry one obvious detail is the insulation of pipes and that it would protect them from freezing and bursting but if you extend this concern about the potential effect of freezing on a building, a building with mass and a heating system that utilizes the mass (hydronic or solar) would because of time lag be less subject to freezing damage in a power outage therefore all buildings should have ideally (from an insurance perspective) a significant amount of mass and a corresponding heating system. Never thought the insurance industry would be an ally in anything but death. Looking forward to a new year and best wishes to all. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. STEPHEN OFFUTT wrote: > A good deal of work has been done over the last couple of years with > the > international insurance industry. They are one industry that has the > comparable > financial clout to counterbalance the energy production industry when > their > long-term goals are at odds. (i.e. climate change) > > The insurance industry has a strong long-term interest in reducing > fossil fuel > burning and CO2 emissions because of the losses from severe weather > events. > The trick is how to dovetail the long-term diffuse benefits with the > shorter term > competitive needs. > > I recommend you visit the Lawrence Berkeley National Lab web site > devoted to > this issue: > http://eande.lbl.gov/CBS/Climate-Insurance/ci.html > > LBNL has identified numerous "No-Regrets" opportunities that reduce > energy use > while simultaneously reducing risk of insurance loss. Some simple > examples: > > - Insulating water pipes reduces the risk of freezing and resultant > water damage. > - Better attic insulation prevents ice dams from forming, preventing > roof and > structural damage. > - More efficient buildings will withstand extreme weather events and > power > outages longer, reducing the risk of death or injury from freezing or > heatstroke > (remember Chicago 1996). > > My best wishes for a terrific 1998 to all! > > Steve O. > > __________ > Contact Information: > --PLEASE NOTE NEW PHONE NUMBERS-- > Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs > U. S. EPA - 6202J > 401 M Street, SW > Washington, DC 20460 > 202-564-9791 > 202-565-2079 (fax) > offutt.stephen@epamail.epa.gov > ENERGY STAR Hotline 1-888-STAR-YES > www.epa.gov/energystar.html > __________________________ > > >>> John Salmen 12/30/97 04:50pm >>> > What would be the criteria or benefits by which an insurance company > would offer reductions in premiums? The only thing I can think of that > > might have a statistical effect would be that green homes might in > general be better constructed (because there construction is less > production oriented at this point?) and therefore there might be some > related reduction in claims? > ... > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 31 13:22:48 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA01825 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:22:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA02335 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:21:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15857; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:16:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:12:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA15580 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:12:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15576; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:12:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05836; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:18:08 GMT (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:17:19 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: GB List: Blue Maxx / Durisol / Faswall To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: sullivan@oikos.com X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199712310307.WAA24255@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1016 Bruce Sullivan wrote > Durisol sounds a lot like Faswall, which also used a mineralized wood > fiber. Does anyone know if there is a connection? I am a bit biased here, because I heard most of the storey from Durisol, but you can judge. Faswall is a system similiar to Durisol, because it almost is Durisol. The man selling the Faswall techology bought Durisol know-how and equipment first (in Florida) and then stopped, and started his own company. Midwestern Faswall, from Iowa, was the latest in a string of Faswall producers who have ceased. Midwestern has now also ceased production, according to Steve Chmelar, who was at the Construct Canada show in Toronto earlier this month. There are apparently differences in the technology (which is one reason Durisol is not sueing Faswall) but more importantly, Durisol has all the technical expertise -- 50 years of research, lab tests, etc (I've seen the reports, they fill an entire room). The new Durisol Carolina plant is being started by the former Faswall distributors. Getting the lengedary durability and fire resistance properties from waste woods of different types is not just a formula, it required a considerable amount of knowledge of wood and cement chemistry. This is why Durisol has been around so long, and Faswall cant seem to sell what is, in my opinion, a fantastic product. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 31 13:31:06 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA02407 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:31:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA04905 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:30:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16369; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:25:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:21:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA16013 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:21:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16008 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:21:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06011; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:26:42 GMT (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 13:25:53 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: GB List: Re: Blue Maxx To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: nadav@ebuild.com X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199712310307.WAA24255@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1017 Blue Maxx is a good product, and the most popular foam ICF in Ontario. It was developed in Coburg, Ontario down the road from me. I have been quite impressed with their ability to think out details and think like a contractor. But, unless they are different than the ones you saw, Blue Maxx is a expanded polystyrene,just like all the others. The Blue colour (which will slowly be removed because of an out of court settlement) may make you think it is extruded, but it aint' It is a Type 2 EPS, with the bead provided by BASF. Also, the R-value quoted in these parts is based, as it should be, on the R-value of the foam and concrete. This R-valueisvalid. If they are quoting mass effects, I will agree with your comment, since it is unclear how much energy you will save without a detailed analysis of a certain type of building in a certain climate. > From: Nadav Malin > Subject: GBlist: Re: Blue Maxx > > I encountered the Blue Maxx product at a tradeshow, and was pretty > impressed with it. They may be exagerating the R-value a bit, but it is > definitely energy efficient. > > The main drawback of this product, and anything else made from extruded > polystyrene foam, is that it is made with HCFCs, which will gradually > offgas from the foam over the next few decades or centuries, and contribute > to ongoing ozone-depletion. > > Expanded polystyrene foam (beadboard) is the only one not currently > implicated in this problem. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 31 14:20:25 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA03238 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:20:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA16452 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:19:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18605; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:14:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:10:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA18369 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:10:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.165]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18365 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:10:19 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:07:47 EST To: crkoehn@mailbag.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Point of Demand H2o heaters Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1018 In a message dated 12/30/97 3:01:02 PM, you wrote: <> Hmmm. My experience is a bit old with these systems. The important things to look for were capacity (can I take a shower and get the water hot enough?) - measured by temperature rise at specified flows; control of output temperature (especially important with a well because flow varies over the pump cycle); vent to the outdoors. Operating issues were mineral buildup in the coils and the comfort phenomena - 5 minute shower people may become 30 minute shower people if the water tank doesn't stop 'em. Don't save much water that way. - terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 31 14:40:13 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA03465 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:40:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA20649 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:39:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19419; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:34:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:30:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19076 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19069 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:30:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id O[R18706; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:34:41 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 10:32:32 -0900 Subject: GBlist: Re: Market perceptions Message-ID: <19971231.103233.9142.5.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199712310700.CAA29901@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,11-15 From: woodeneagle@juno.com (R. Scott Waterman) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1019 Chuck wrote What about getting Taunton Press or Country Living to carry some feature Greenbuilt homes on a regular basis? Glossy photos seem to be a driving force, and looking on my bookshelf, I see 8 books of generic off the shelf houseplans....Coffee table books, and newspaper articles like the Minneapolis Star Tribune Series on "The Trouble with Houses" are also driving forces in market perceptions. Then, you get the Realtor and builder pamphlets and fliers.... What else can one do? more ideas please! Scott Waterman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 31 15:06:43 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA03807 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:06:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA26421 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:05:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21144; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:00:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:56:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA20605 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:56:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20597 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:56:22 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501 Message-ID: <2ceb6687.34aaa450@aol.com> Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:00:14 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: rebuild island research center Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1020 Hi, I am forwarding this from the EEBA list to the green building list - Terry Hello, I am a marine biologist at the Natural History Museum, Smithsonian Inst. in Wash. DC. We have been operating a marine lab in the Caribbean on an island the barrier reef of Belize, Central America, for the last 25 yrs. A little description of the lab: It is located 12 miles off the mainland on an island slightly less than an acre, a few hundred yards from the "drop-off" or edge of the oceanic continental shelf. The facility houses maybe 6-8 scientists, a cook and a station manager, on a rotating schedule of 2-3 weeks at a time, all year round. All fresh water is provided by rain-runoff from gutters into holding tanks, and from purchased bottled water. There is a hot water shower powered by solar panels. All electrical is provided either by a diesel generator, and a bank of solar panels sufficient to run microscopes, aquarium system, etc. There is a pretty constant wind, up to now unharnessed energy-wise. Refrigeration is provided by 2 donated gas refrigerators and a huge ice box filled with block ice (brought out by boat once a week). Several weeks ago, all the existing structures burned to the ground, a total loss (well, the boats survived...). We are going to rebuild, and now see the opportunity to incorporate into the design energy --features. The old building, while charming, was a 100 yr old plantation house that had been moved piece by piece out to the island by the owners (The Smithsonian leases the island) and everything was tacked to the old structure (including a weather station which had a satellite linkup for transmitting data). The setting seems ideal for using solar and possibly wind energy features, and we'd love suggestions, welcome donations :-) and are willing to try experimental stuff.... Thanks, Kate Smith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 31 18:28:34 1997 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA06835 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:28:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA12264 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:27:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA27500; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:18:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27063 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:17:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net (denmark-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27059 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:17:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from Cheetah (1Cust72.max11.santa-clara.ca.ms.uu.net [153.34.145.72]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA04631 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:22:37 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 15:22:37 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199712312322.PAA04631@denmark.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: envdiv@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Michelle Randall Subject: GBlist: Homemade Life Cycle Analysis Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1021 Mike wrote: >Please let me know if you would like information on performing your own >life-cycle analysis. Dear Mike, Please share! I am developing an environmental products division for a conventional building materials supplier on the California central coast and would appreciate the assistance... Happy New Year - Michelle Michelle Randall Division Manager - Green Building Materials Hayward Lumber 429 Front Street Salinas, CA 93901 408/755-8805 Fax: 408/755-8814 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 1 11:37:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA16843 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:37:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA07014 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:36:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15122; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:25:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14849 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:25:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14845 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 11:25:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA103988; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 09:28:58 -0700 Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 09:28:57 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: STEPHEN OFFUTT , jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Insurance -Reply In-Reply-To: <34AA7A86.B40581A4@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1022 John: I have been in touch in Evan Mills from LBL, and have incorporated his efforts in recent work with a major client as the second stage of a "Green Insurance Policy" - based on environmental stewardship in an effort to not only reduce the major losses in the insurance industry but also as a means for countries to achieve their international commitments (ie. Rio, Kyoto). This will lead, in my opinion to another version of "environmental credits", where, in the case of an office building it may translate into reduced premiums, due to their example/demonstration/incentive for reducing real financial impact of Climatic Warming. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, John Salmen wrote: > > I recommend to anyone interested in this issue to look at the LBNL > insurance link that Stephen gave (below) especially the 1996 article by > Mills http://eande.lbl.gov/CBS/Climate-Insurance/GoingGreen.html and > the 1997 article by Mills and Knoepfel > http://eande.lbl.gov/CBS/PUBS/Mills-Knoepfel.pdf > It would seem that most of the criteria by which a building could be > considered green form some positive relationship to insurability; either > the building itself, the occupants, or general issues of energy > conservation (if the industry does take a proactive stance to global > warming!) > Mills has compiled a list of practices and relationship to insurance > criteria and as you look through them it would seem easy to expand on > the list. Basically any aspect of construction that could seem to relate > to the health and safety of the occupants both within a building and > secondarily as in reduction of exterior pollutants, etc. or the health > of the planet (global warming, etc.) which about sums up green > construction. > It would be interesting to see how the application of insurance criteria > could direct green practice. One example of this: for the insurance > industry one obvious detail is the insulation of pipes and that it would > protect them from freezing and bursting but if you extend this concern > about the potential effect of freezing on a building, a building with > mass and a heating system that utilizes the mass (hydronic or solar) > would because of time lag be less subject to freezing damage in a power > outage therefore all buildings should have ideally (from an insurance > perspective) a significant amount of mass and a corresponding heating > system. > Never thought the insurance industry would be an ally in anything but > death. > > Looking forward to a new year and best wishes to all. > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S. > > STEPHEN OFFUTT wrote: > > > A good deal of work has been done over the last couple of years with > > the > > international insurance industry. They are one industry that has the > > comparable > > financial clout to counterbalance the energy production industry when > > their > > long-term goals are at odds. (i.e. climate change) > > > > The insurance industry has a strong long-term interest in reducing > > fossil fuel > > burning and CO2 emissions because of the losses from severe weather > > events. > > The trick is how to dovetail the long-term diffuse benefits with the > > shorter term > > competitive needs. > > > > I recommend you visit the Lawrence Berkeley National Lab web site > > devoted to > > this issue: > > http://eande.lbl.gov/CBS/Climate-Insurance/ci.html > > > > LBNL has identified numerous "No-Regrets" opportunities that reduce > > energy use > > while simultaneously reducing risk of insurance loss. Some simple > > examples: > > > > - Insulating water pipes reduces the risk of freezing and resultant > > water damage. > > - Better attic insulation prevents ice dams from forming, preventing > > roof and > > structural damage. > > - More efficient buildings will withstand extreme weather events and > > power > > outages longer, reducing the risk of death or injury from freezing or > > heatstroke > > (remember Chicago 1996). > > > > My best wishes for a terrific 1998 to all! > > > > Steve O. > > > > __________ > > Contact Information: > > --PLEASE NOTE NEW PHONE NUMBERS-- > > Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs > > U. S. EPA - 6202J > > 401 M Street, SW > > Washington, DC 20460 > > 202-564-9791 > > 202-565-2079 (fax) > > offutt.stephen@epamail.epa.gov > > ENERGY STAR Hotline 1-888-STAR-YES > > www.epa.gov/energystar.html > > __________________________ > > > > >>> John Salmen 12/30/97 04:50pm >>> > > What would be the criteria or benefits by which an insurance company > > would offer reductions in premiums? The only thing I can think of that > > > > might have a statistical effect would be that green homes might in > > general be better constructed (because there construction is less > > production oriented at this point?) and therefore there might be some > > related reduction in claims? > > ... > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 1 12:40:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA17336 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:40:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA22671 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:40:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16400; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:35:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:31:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16123 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:30:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16119 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:30:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from sover.net (usr1a19.burl.sover.net [207.136.198.167]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA22478 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 12:35:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34ABD34A.EEC7EFD7@sover.net> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 12:32:58 -0500 From: Eric Warren X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuild List Subject: GBlist: introduction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1023 I just subscribed to this list and thought I'd introduce myself. My name is Eric Warren and I live in the mountains of Vermont. I do a bit of carpentry along with this and that, and I am interested in ecologically responsible building. Currently I am engaged in a Masters program in Social Ecology at Goddard College and my study is concerned with questions about the ecology of home construction. Although I am not totally adverse to the use of new technologies, I am very wary of eco-technologies and building materials out there which are looked to as solutions. Basically I believe that our ecological problems have social roots and that there are no technological fixes - though changing the goal of technological research and development does play a big role. As far as home construction goes, I am interested in ways of building that maximize the use of local materials, are low-tech and available to common people, involve more labor than money, and help foster community. I am doing a study right now of the history of the wood industry in my small, mountain town and I do believe in the responsible use of local timber in places like Vermont - to the exclusion of more centralized industry, high-tech eco-materials. And, as I really like timber framed structures, I hope to do a post and beam, strawbale building or two in the coming years. Having said that, my wife and I and our new baby are headed across the country in February to northern California (where I'm from), and we will be spending a few days driving around northern New Mexico and southern Colorado. I see this as a great opportunity to check out some of what is happening in the sutstainable building world of the south-west. So, anyone have any ideas for me of potential places to visit? We will be in the south-west Feb 8-15 and northern CA the 16th - 23rd. Happy New Year everyone! Eric Warren ewarren@sover.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 1 13:16:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA17684 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 13:16:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA00280 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 13:15:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17825; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 13:10:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 1 Jan 1998 13:06:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17414 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 13:06:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17400; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 13:06:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA21018; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 10:11:39 -0800 Message-ID: <34ABDAF8.22E75FBB@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 10:05:44 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "strawbale@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Public compost toilets X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1024 A happy new year to everyone. I have a fun project for the new year which is to coordinate the design for a public compost toilet building to be used in some local community parks. The purpose is to lessen the environmental impact of increasingly heavy park usage. There are increasing concerns of water contamination from septic sources and the current hole in the ground facilities are a prime source. While there do seem to be a number of commercial options out there the concept of having to import a number of expensive large bulky plastic items to our area seems redundant and wasteful when the structure itself could probably incorporate the mechanics of the toilet, could hopefully be designed more specifically for the intended usage and could be done locally at less cost (it seems important in a project like this to try and encourage a little community economic development and develop some localized skills in composting tech.) I would love some help getting some design specifications together for a concrete tank system. The problem I'm anticipating is showing relavent authorities that the design would work. I've seen rough designs for a clivus type system but no real commentary about under what range of conditions it might work. Usage of a park toilet is infrequent and seasonal. I'm concerned about a heavy liquid ratio and how that might be safely evaporated (need to keep this self contained as most of the park areas are on rivers and streams). Maintenance is also another issue. Usage of a commercial system is an option but I've reviewed the products and am a bit skeptical about some of the claims. I've seem some discussion here on composting toilets and am hoping to benefit from the expertise out there. Thanks John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 1 17:21:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA21899 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:21:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA20499 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:20:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA24823; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:15:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:10:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24513 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:09:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@NS2.VINEYARD.NET [204.17.195.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24509 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:09:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA18280 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:14:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from bsy3.vineyard.net(199.232.92.83) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id smab18264; Thu Jan 1 17:14:27 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199712311509.JAA06848@glacier.binc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:10:47 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Insurance Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1025 Hi Chris - So. . . you have a problem with your built-to-last timber frame houses being lumped together with geodesic domes? I love Stewart Brand's comments about domes: "As a major propagandist for Fuller [geodesic] domes in my Whole Earth Catalogs, I can report with mixed chagrin and glee that they were a massive, total failure. Count the ways. . ." I think the glee is about the learning, and I enjoy the comment because it makes me think of the endless practices which have excited me over the past 25 years, only to be tossed in the scrap heap of ideas when I found out how they really worked. Anyway, I hope you can get Boeck to make some valid distinctions. Good luck. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 1 17:37:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA22009 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:37:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA23776 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:36:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25728; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:31:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:26:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA25240 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:26:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25215; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 17:26:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from jacob by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA24314; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 14:31:24 -0800 Message-ID: <34AC17D7.E8D3A4F7@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 14:25:27 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "strawbale@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: SLOW SAND FILTRATION X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1026 Yet another request for information - nothing like a holiday to find time to make demands on everyone Another project that I am working on (and is getting quite urgent) is a project to develop a slow sand filter (SSF) for single family and multI family developments. The interest stems from increased contamination of groundwater in our area and a concern that we need low cost strategies that can be effectively incorporated into rural residential projects. The two scenarios that I am looking at is a packaged unit that can be incorporated into the supply system for a single family residence and the potential of larger units that can serve a small rural housing cluster. This particular project will hopefully become integrated into a solution for not just improving the quality of water that enters a house but ultimately to ensure that the quality of all water that is used or comes into contact with a residential environment is not damaged or compromised in some way. I am writing in the hope that someone might have information on existing small SSF systems or are aware of any research in that direction. Most SSF systems serve communities and the criteria and maintenance criteria become quite different in a small application. My background is not technical in this area and my budget (in this case my own funds) is not large so in setting the parameters of this project I want to be quite sure that I am not unnecessarily duplicating efforts and that I have all the information that is available. Any assistance would be appreciated. I hope to create a web site for the design and relevant information that I gather and I think this would be quite useful in efforts to preserve water quality Many thanks all John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 1 23:19:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA25637 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:19:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA15859 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:18:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04973; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:13:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:08:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA03912 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03907; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:07:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.99] (ka3-99.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.99]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id XAA06072; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:12:31 -0500 X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 22:04:08 -0500 To: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List From: Speireag Subject: GBlist: Embedded Insulation? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id XAB03908 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1027 Howdy! I've been thinking about perimeter insulation on foundations. It seems to me that most people put only two to four inches of insulation on the outside of their slabs, from what I've seen and been reading. So let's say that you're pouring a grade beam eighteen inches wide. You want insulation, you want to keep thermal mass on the inside of the insulation, but you don't want the stuff showing on the outside, and you don't want to give termites a highway into the structure. Why not just set two to four inches of insulation in the concrete forms, about six inches inward from the outer edge? Poke a hole every once in a while to permit the concrete to be one piece. Or push the rebar down into the top edge of the insulation, thereby bridging between the two layers of concrete. Let the concrete top the insulation slightly. Voila! No BlueMaxx, no Faswall, no Energrid. (In fairness to these products, also no high walls.) An insulated grade beam (aka stem wall), which still has some thermal mass on the inside. What say you knowledgeable folks? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 1 23:19:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA25636 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:19:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA15858 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:18:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04977; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:13:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:08:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA03992 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:08:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03961; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:08:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA58168; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:11:47 -0700 Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:11:47 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "strawbale@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Re: SLOW SAND FILTRATION In-Reply-To: <34AC17D7.E8D3A4F7@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1028 John: We are using 3 SSF in our home/office: 1 for treating water from the cistern, the other 2 for treating greywater in the greenhouse (this is experimental) as 1 of 3 different greywater treatment systems. Not all systems are commissioned yet. The SSF is commercially available locally. Martin Liefheber's Toronto Healthy House also uses a SSF, but their system is very different than ours. We are also in the middle of a government study on: "Sustainable Home Water Systems". Project manager is Karen Braun. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, John Salmen wrote: > > Yet another request for information - nothing like a holiday to find > time to make demands on everyone > > Another project that I am working on (and is getting quite urgent) is a > project to develop a slow sand filter (SSF) for single family and multI > family developments. The interest stems from increased contamination of > groundwater in our area and a concern that we need low cost strategies > that can be effectively incorporated into rural residential projects. > > The two scenarios that I am looking at is a packaged unit that can be > incorporated into the supply system for a single family residence and > the potential of larger units that can serve a small rural housing > cluster. This particular project will hopefully become integrated into a > solution for not just improving the quality of water that enters a house > but ultimately to ensure that the quality of all water that is used or > comes into contact with a residential environment is not damaged or > compromised in some way. > > I am writing in the hope that someone might have information on existing > small SSF systems or are aware of any research in that direction. Most > SSF systems serve communities and the criteria and maintenance criteria > become quite different in a small application. My background is not > technical in this area and my budget (in this case my own funds) is not > large so in setting the parameters of this project I want to be quite > sure that I am not unnecessarily duplicating efforts and that I have all > the information that is available. > > Any assistance would be appreciated. I hope to create a web site for the > design and relevant information that I gather and I think this would be > quite useful in efforts to preserve water quality > > Many thanks all > > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S. > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 1 23:34:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA25721 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:34:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA20498 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:33:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA05872; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:29:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:25:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA05396 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:24:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA05380; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:24:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17108; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:28:06 -0700 Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:28:05 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "strawbale@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Re: Public compost toilets In-Reply-To: <34ABDAF8.22E75FBB@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1029 John: BC Parks and Parks Canada have experience with the above. Also you can talk to Carl Lindstrom or Abbey Rockerfeller of Clivus Multrum USA. They have the most extensive testing results and Congressional hearings. We have a composting toilet in our home, but our home is not a park, although sometime one wonders. Also you must talk to John Cruikshank who would be the most useful hands-on expert with his "Sunny John". Good plans for local construction. Tanks-A-Lot manufacturers a prefab conrete version. I assume you have seem the plans for a site-built "Clivus Minimus" out of HCB that appeared in the journals in the 1970s? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, John Salmen wrote: > > I have a fun project for the new year which is to coordinate the design > for a public compost toilet building to be used in some local community > parks. The purpose is to lessen the environmental impact of increasingly > heavy park usage. There are increasing concerns of water contamination > from septic sources and the current hole in the ground facilities are a > prime source. While there do seem to be a number of commercial options > out there the concept of having to import a number of expensive large > bulky plastic items to our area seems redundant and wasteful when the > structure itself could probably incorporate the mechanics of the toilet, > could hopefully be designed more specifically for the intended usage and > could be done locally at less cost (it seems important in a project > like this to try and encourage a little community economic development > and develop some localized skills in composting tech.) > > I would love some help getting some design specifications together for a > concrete tank system. The problem I'm anticipating is showing relavent > authorities that the design would work. I've seen rough designs for a > clivus type system but no real commentary about under what range of > conditions it might work. Usage of a park toilet is infrequent and > seasonal. I'm concerned about a heavy liquid ratio and how that might be > safely evaporated (need to keep this self contained as most of the park > areas are on rivers and streams). Maintenance is also another issue. > Usage of a commercial system is an option but I've reviewed the products > and am a bit skeptical about some of the claims. > > I've seem some discussion here on composting toilets and am hoping to > benefit from the expertise out there. > > Thanks > > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S. > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 1 23:44:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA25911 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:44:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA23206 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:43:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA06371; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:39:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:34:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA06101 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:34:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA06097 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 23:34:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.143] (1Cust143.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.143]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA15207 for ; Thu, 1 Jan 1998 20:39:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801020439.UAA15207@norway.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Embedded Insulation? Date: Thu, 1 Jan 98 20:42:39 -0000 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1030 Joshua An article in Energy Source Builder #45 describes how a Canadian builder did this very thing. See There's also a product called Thermomass that uses proprietary spacers to accomplish this. And I believe Env. Building News (or was it Energy Design Update) just covered another similar system. The idea seems sound. Bruce > Why not just set two to four inches of insulation in the concrete >forms, about six inches inward from the outer edge? Poke a hole every once >in a while to permit the concrete to be one piece. Or push the rebar down >into the top edge of the insulation, thereby bridging between the two >layers of concrete. Let the concrete top the insulation slightly. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 06:50:00 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA29336 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:50:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA16793 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:49:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA14005; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:43:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:38:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA13737 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:37:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@NS2.VINEYARD.NET [204.17.195.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA13733 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:37:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA15631 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:42:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from asy13.vineyard.net(199.232.92.53) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id smaa15624; Fri Jan 2 06:42:41 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34ABDAF8.22E75FBB@cow-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:45:32 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: Re: GBlist: Public compost toilets Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1031 John Salmen wrote: >I would love some help getting some design specifications together for a >concrete tank system. The problem I'm anticipating is showing relavent >authorities that the design would work. I've seen rough designs for a >clivus type system but no real commentary about under what range of >conditions it might work. Usage of a park toilet is infrequent and >seasonal. I'm concerned about a heavy liquid ratio and how that might be >safely evaporated (need to keep this self contained as most of the park >areas are on rivers and streams). Maintenance is also another issue. >Usage of a commercial system is an option but I've reviewed the products >and am a bit skeptical about some of the claims. Hi John - Sounds like a good project. Although use of local materials and labor and reduced costs seem like worthy goals, your approach sounds to me like re-inventing a very tough wheel. The companies who are actually supplying composting toilet systems (and "system" is a critical word here) and have done public facilities, like Clivus Multrum USA and Phoenix (I have less direct experience with Phoenix than Clivus) have been working for decades to solve the complex web of technical, biological, operational, and regulatory issues involved in composting toilets and nutrient cycling of human waste. They've solved some, and continue to work on the rest. I think your efforts would be more valuable if you worked with one of these companies to help them solve the issues inherent in your specific project, and help further their work at the same time. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 07:00:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA29388 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:00:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA18781 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:59:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA14449; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:55:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:51:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA14230 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:50:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from iceland.it.earthlink.net (iceland-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA14224 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 06:50:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (1Cust179.tnt6.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.120.179]) by iceland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id DAA00421 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 03:55:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801021155.DAA00421@iceland.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: wliebold@mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 06:54:36 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Warren Liebold Subject: GBlist: Washers/Dryers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1032 FYI, the November/December issue of the EPRI Journal (Electric Power Research Institute) has a long article on horizontal-axis washers with, of course, a discussion of micorwave dryers. Warren Warren Liebold wliebold@earthlink.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 07:54:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA00084 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:54:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA27970 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:54:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA15425; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:49:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:44:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA15186 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:44:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV (dcsmtp.wictok7.epa.gov [161.80.160.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA15181 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:44:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 02 Jan 1998 07:49:21 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 07:47:39 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: California Rice Straw & Recycled Paper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1033 I recall a recent thread concerning the agricultural rice straw in California that is burned in large quantities each year. The suggestion was made that this agricultural waste could be more environmentally reused in straw-bale housing. Today I read that a Canadian paper company named Arbokem is intending to introduce a recycled paper using this rice straw as a raw material. They market through a paper catalog company called Fiber Options. References: E Magazine - Jan/Feb 1998 pp. 48-53 Arbokem , PO Box 95014, Vancouver, Canada V6P6V4; 250-613-9466 Fiber Options Paper Company, PO Box 222, Williams, OR 97544; 541-846-6366 Steve O. __________ Contact Information: --PLEASE NOTE NEW PHONE NUMBERS-- Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs U. S. EPA - 6202J 401 M Street, SW Washington, DC 20460 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epamail.epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html __________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 09:21:45 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA00609 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:21:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA13521 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:20:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17776; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:15:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:11:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA17286 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:11:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17281; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:11:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79670; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:13:58 -0700 Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 07:13:58 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "John R. Abrams" Cc: Strawbale Listserver , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Public compost toilets In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1034 John Salem: Further to the mention of the Phoenix below, I suggest you contact Glenn Nelson (Whitefish MT) or Michael Kerfoot (Nanaimo BC). They have done many projects like you describe. They could be a subconsultants. We have a Phoenix in our home, selected on the basis of a government report we did on: "Alternative Human Waste Management Options - A Comparative Inventory",an evaluation and comparison of many different composting toilet systems available in 1992. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, John R. Abrams wrote: > John Salmen wrote: > >I would love some help getting some design specifications together for a > >concrete tank system. The problem I'm anticipating is showing relavent > >authorities that the design would work. I've seen rough designs for a > >clivus type system but no real commentary about under what range of > >conditions it might work. Usage of a park toilet is infrequent and > >seasonal. I'm concerned about a heavy liquid ratio and how that might be > >safely evaporated (need to keep this self contained as most of the park > >areas are on rivers and streams). Maintenance is also another issue. > >Usage of a commercial system is an option but I've reviewed the products > >and am a bit skeptical about some of the claims. > > Hi John - > > re-inventing a very tough wheel. The companies who are actually supplying > composting toilet systems (and "system" is a critical word here) and have > done public facilities, like Clivus Multrum USA and Phoenix (I have less > direct experience with Phoenix than Clivus) have been working for decades > to solve the complex web of technical, biological, operational, and > regulatory issues involved in composting toilets and nutrient cycling of > human waste. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 09:47:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA01170 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:47:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA19027 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:46:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18724; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:41:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:37:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18398 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:37:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18359; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:36:07 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <69e8aa3c.34acfbe2@aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:38:23 EST To: terrain@cow-net.com, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Public compost toilets Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1035 There are three basic types of composting toilets: 1) Clivus and other high tech types. 2) Mouldering toilets. 3) Methane digesters. The choice between 1 and 2 is easy. 1 sucks. The more complex the toilet is made, the more problems people have with it. 2 is simplest. You have oversized chambers divided halfway (as high as the pile will get) by a cement block (ferrocement web, etc) wall. Use side A until you have a really big pile. Then seal it off and use side B. Side A should moulder away for several years. Problems with 2 are as follows. i) People are required to add carbonaceous material. (same is true of 1) You can develop a cute dry flush system (pull the chain and the correct amount of sawdust falls on top of the turd), but in my opinion casual visitors to the park won't use it regularly. ii) 2 works best if you don't pee into it. Urine creates anerobic conditions and the mouldering becomes inefficient (and stinky). You can locate a funnel near the "front" (from sitting position) that diverts urine from both men and women to a holding tank where it can ferment until used directly as fertilizer. What does the park want to fertilize? Important question, eh? Men who stand should use a urinal that delivers to the tank. Men who stand and pee onto the pile will mess you up. Try to get people to change their excretion habits! iii) Construction must be very tight and fully screened. (same as for 1) Lids, toilet seats, etc., should be gasketed. You should post $100 fines for leaving the seat up. (Not high enough, but probably as much as a judge will allow.) All vents should be well screened. This will prevent fly problems IF you are magic and can convince/threaten people to shut the lid after every use. Have a semi-load of diatomaceous earth stockpiled, however, and at the end of every day have a park worker throw a few shovelfulls over every pile. (If mouldering piles are not screened from piles in use, you have a much more difficult problem. If screens aren't kept clear, you have a ventilation problem. iv) You need good vents with tall stacks. Same as for 1) Operated properly, with enough carbon material and attention to fly control, 2 will produce sweet smelling compost that is a joy to remove and spread around whatever it is that you want fertilized, e.g. poision ivy for restricted areas. Diatomaceous earth is a good non-toxic fly control if you get the right kind and use it regularly, just assuming that people are irresponsible about their bodily functions. Ducks kept around the area will also do a great job on fly control (and bee control unfortunately), snapping them right out of the air. This brings up predator problems, of course. 3 is your best option if you get a sufficient volume of traffic. Pee in methane digesters is fine. Very modest liquid flushes are acceptable. Flies are not a problem. 3 requires a regular amount of trained maintenance. I recommend a set of small digesters, rather than one big digester, so that you can use tailing procedures and also so you can have a digester down for cleaning or dealing with something awful (toxic) that somone dumped in (not much of a problem in a park hopefully) and not have to shut down the park due to lack of toilet facilities. If the volume is marginal, go with 2. My guess is that seasonal use will mean that either you build a small mouldering unit for low seasonal use plus a digester, or you build a digester and close the park when volume would be low (strange reason to close a park), or just go with a mouldering unit. I'd favor the latter unless there was also a strong advantage to the methane fuel. The design decision between 2 and 3 is based on volume. You need a LOT of visitors for 3, given that not everyone defecates just because they happent to be in a public park and people don't produce much manure, individually. With insufficient volume you will not get enough methane even to keep the slurry warm enough for the methane organisms to wrok. Have fun. You need not only numbers but trends. Of course it is much simpler to scale up modular approaches and, repeating myself because it is important, rotate which are closed during low use for maintance and cleaning. Making compost is more like growing a crop than manufacturing. You need to complete the process before you harvest. Which means you need periods of zero use, or, for digesters, a tailing system that "finishes" the slurry and garners that last bit of CH4. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 10:20:44 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA01475 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:20:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27894 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:19:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19799; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:14:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:10:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19516 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:10:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19511 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:10:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sA6a-p4.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.132]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA13490 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:16:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34AD0397.1D03@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 10:11:19 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Public Compost Toilets Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1036 Dan wrote: > You should post $100 fines for > leaving the seat up. (Not high enough, but probably as much as a judge will > allow.) All vents should be well screened. Wouldn't a simple spring mechanism on the lid be more effective, as well as more fun. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 10:33:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA01750 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:33:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA02032 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:32:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20315; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:27:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:23:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20034 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:23:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20030 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:23:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.205] (pm2a14.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.174]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA10221; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:28:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:28:20 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34AC17D7.E8D3A4F7@cow-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: John Salmen From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: SLOW SAND FILTRATION Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1037 John Salmen requested information on packaged sand filter systems for wastewater treatment. Are you in touch with Orenco Systems in Roseburg, Oregon? When I last wrote about sand filtration wastewater treatment in EBN, they made a packaged sand filter system designed for small applications. You can reach them at 503/673-0165. Good luck. Let me know of any others you track down, as I'd like to cover these systems again in EBN. -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 11:03:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA02029 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:03:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA12016 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:02:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21529; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:57:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:53:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21232 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:53:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21224 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:53:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA16801 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:57:19 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 000560B4; Fri, 2 Jan 98 09:46:38 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:56:29 -0600 Message-ID: <000560B4.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Set-backs for gas hot water heaters? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="RFC822 message headers" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Content-Disposition: inline; filename="RFC822 message headers" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1038 I have a standard gas hotwater heater. Since I'm gone a lot of the time, I would like to turn the temperature down during those periods. Does anyone know of a gizmo that can be retrofitted to such a heater, that could be programmed to vary the water temperature at different times of the day?(Something analogous to a setback thermostat for a furnace.) - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 12:01:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02895 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:01:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA28569 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:00:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23345; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:55:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:49:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23039 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:49:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23033 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:49:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA04394; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 08:54:51 -0800 Message-ID: <34AD1ABD.B8C4A7F0@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 08:50:05 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John R. Abrams" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Public compost toilets References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1039 Hi John I agree in part. Its generally a good principal to support companies or individuals that are actively engaged in developing a product. Some of the preliminary work that I did was to look for existing appropriate technology that could be applied here to improve or enhance the general container. The problem here is simply wanting a concrete container design that also forms part of the structure. Generally precast concrete products are a localized manufacture. Most first world (sorry to use that term) applications of public compost facilities are premanufactured systems but the clients are mostly goverment agencies and the costs are high (I've been quoted 17,000 on a unit) too high to encourage more general usage. Unfortunately our governments seem to be increasingly adopting a negligent attitude to water resources and solutions may (as in the case of third world applications) need to be community developed. I would be happy to work with an existing company on an applicable design but to date my experience has been that the major companies are restricting their public involvement to the marketing of their defined products. Having to incorporate one of these products may be the end result but I would like to pursue getting a good design into the public realm. Part of the result would be to create a web site for the design of a public facility with the resource material used. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. John R. Abrams wrote: > Hi John - > > Sounds like a good project. Although use of local materials and labor and > reduced costs seem like worthy goals, your approach sounds to me like > re-inventing a very tough wheel. The companies who are actually supplying > composting toilet systems (and "system" is a critical word here) and have > done public facilities, like Clivus Multrum USA and Phoenix (I have less > direct experience with Phoenix than Clivus) have been working for decades > to solve the complex web of technical, biological, operational, and > regulatory issues involved in composting toilets and nutrient cycling of > human waste. They've solved some, and continue to work on the rest. I > think your efforts would be more valuable if you worked with one of these > companies to help them solve the issues inherent in your specific project, > and help further their work at the same time. > > John Abrams > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 12:13:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA03009 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:13:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA01924 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:12:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23919; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:07:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:03:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23639 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:03:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23634 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:03:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA14979; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:16:28 -0800 Message-Id: <34AD1EFD.44CC@arb.ca.gov> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 09:08:13 -0800 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Insurance -Reply Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1040 FYI, insurance for indoor air quality problems is being developed for commercial bldg. owners, according to a recent article in Indoor Environment Review. The firm is based in the Northeast, I believe. It sounds promising if it will improve the "standard of care" for building design, commissioning, and maintenance. Best wishes for 1998, Tom -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 13:12:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA04423 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:12:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA18832 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:11:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26284; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:06:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:02:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25968 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:02:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from essential.essential.org (essential.org [198.4.52.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25964 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:01:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from essential.org (franklin.essential.org [198.4.52.7]) by essential.essential.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22764; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:08:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34AD2DEE.5B037080@essential.org> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 13:11:59 -0500 From: Meghan Clancy-Hepburn Reply-To: mch@essential.org Organization: wood reduction clearinghouse X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: STEPHEN OFFUTT , greenbuilding list Subject: GBlist: California Rice Straw & Recycled Paper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1041 Dear Stephen and the Greenbuilding Listserve: I was pleased to read Stephen's post to the listserve about California Rice Straw & Recycled Paper. As many of you know, agricultural residues in the form of wheat straw, rice straw, corn stalks, grasses and bagasse (from sugar cane) are being increasingly recovered to make both paper and a variety of building materials. Some of the building materials include Agriboard's SIPs (made from compressed agricultural residues sandwiched between OSB), Primeboard's Wheatboard, which is a particleboard analog, and many others. A new listserve started up in December of 1997 to discuss the many uses of agricultural residues as an industrial feedstock. I would invite any of you who are interested to join this new listserve, AG-RES, which is devoted to promoting the research, development and marketing of pulp, paper and construction materials made from agricultural residues. This discussion group is open to everyone: farmers, agronomists and soil scientists; pulp and paper producers, experts, consultants and workers; environmentalists, policy makers and educators; transportation sector representatives; potential investors; and other interested parties. If you are interested, please send your SUBSCRIBE request to "listproc@essential.org". The correct syntax for a SUBSCRIBE command is: subscribe AG-RES FULLNAME (put your full name in place of FULLNAME) NOTE: You should leave the subject line of your message blank to avoid confusing the listproccessor. I look forward to conversing with some greenbuilder folks on this new listserve! Sincerely, Meghan Clancy-Hepburn Campaigns Director Wood Reduction Clearinghouse P.O. Box 19367 Washington, DC 20036 tel: 202.387.8030 fax: 202.234.5176 email: mch@essential.org web: http://www.essential.org/wrc/home.html ******************************************************************** I recall a recent thread concerning the agricultural rice straw in California that is burned in large quantities each year. The suggestion was made that this agricultural waste could be more environmentally reused in straw-bale housing. Today I read that a Canadian paper company named Arbokem is intending to introduce a recycled paper using this rice straw as a raw material. They market through a paper catalog company called Fiber Options. References: E Magazine - Jan/Feb 1998 pp. 48-53 Arbokem , PO Box 95014, Vancouver, Canada V6P6V4; 250-613-9466 Fiber Options Paper Company, PO Box 222, Williams, OR 97544; 541-846-6366 Steve O. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 14:19:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA05217 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:19:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA06653 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:18:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28672; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:13:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:09:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28349 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28345 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:09:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.106] (usr0a41.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.106]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24660 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:14:33 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:18:09 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: cinva ram Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1042 Hi folks, I'm forwarding this request in the hopes that someone on the list can help. Please respond to Lenore directly. Thanks, Nadav Environmental Building News >Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 13:42:26 -0500 >From: lenore >Reply-To: lenore@spyral.net >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: spider@ebuild.com >CC: lenore@spyral.net >Subject: cinva ram > >I am an ex Peace Corps volunteer (Nicaragua 91-93) who used a cinva ram >to help build schools while I was there. I find myself again working in >Nicaragua and am looking to purchase a cinva ram for a project we are >working on. Have you any idea where I may find a cinva ram or the plans >to build one? Thank You. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 15:27:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA05935 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:27:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA24816 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:26:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01473; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:21:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:17:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00822 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:16:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00818; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:16:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA16491; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:22:04 -0800 Message-ID: <34AD4B4E.6BA0D68D@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 12:17:18 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag CC: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List Subject: Re: GBlist: Embedded Insulation? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1043 We have been using something similar to this detail on all our conc. walls and conc. stone walls. There is large component of added work and care that needs to be taken or the results negate the benefits - there is a lot of potential for the foam to move or break compromising the structural integrity of the wall. High wall pours especially with vibration are extremely difficult to control. I think in those cases a precast or even on site flat precast is preferable. Its not necessarily a cost saving detail. Stucco applied over a mineral board might be preferable both for concerns about insects and to extend the insulation as an exterior ground skirt. I've mentioned before that we have been using EPS as the infill but I have concerns about moisture diffusion and collection against the EPS layer. I think we will be looking at using mineral wool board in the future. Another concern (in monolithic pours with slabs or grade beam to slab connections) is being able to provide the necessary thermal breaks. There is a similar but low cost complete wall process that utilizes foam with a steel mesh reinf. on both sides and concrete sprayed on (gunnite) Supposedly the only structures that remained standing in one area in Florida. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Speireag wrote: > Howdy! > > I've been thinking about perimeter insulation on foundations. It seems > to me that most people put only two to four inches of insulation on the > outside of their slabs, from what I've seen and been reading. So let's say > that you're pouring a grade beam eighteen inches wide. You want > insulation, you want to keep thermal mass on the inside of the insulation, > but you don't want the stuff showing on the outside, and you don't want to > give termites a highway into the structure. > > Why not just set two to four inches of insulation in the concrete > forms, about six inches inward from the outer edge? Poke a hole every once > in a while to permit the concrete to be one piece. Or push the rebar down > into the top edge of the insulation, thereby bridging between the two > layers of concrete. Let the concrete top the insulation slightly. > > Voila! No BlueMaxx, no Faswall, no Energrid. (In fairness to these > products, also no high walls.) An insulated grade beam (aka stem wall), > which still has some thermal mass on the inside. > > What say you knowledgeable folks? > > -Speireag. > > 0>>>>>>(--------------------- > Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) > Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. > Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig > agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 15:28:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA05977 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:28:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA25125 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:27:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01583; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:22:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:18:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00952 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:18:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00941 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:18:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA69466; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:20:48 -0700 Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:20:48 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Patrick Pierquet Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Set-backs for gas hot water heaters? In-Reply-To: <000560B4.1762@us.teltech.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1044 Patrick: Paragon used to make such a device (called QWaterback II). I used it for many years and it worked fine. However, I just checked with the manufacturer and they have stopped manufacturing it. Check with the company in case they have some left-overs. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Patrick Pierquet wrote: Does > anyone know of a gizmo that can be retrofitted to > such a heater, that could be programmed to vary > the water temperature at different times of the > day?(Something analogous to a setback thermostat > for a furnace.) > > - Patrick Pierquet > ppierquet@teltech.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 15:54:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA06515 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:54:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA02411 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:53:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02665; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:48:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:44:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA02329 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:44:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02320 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:44:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA17531; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:56:52 -0800 Message-Id: <34AD52A6.888@arb.ca.gov> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 12:48:38 -0800 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Cc: GREENBLDGLIST Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Insurance -Reply References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1045 JORG: I don't have a copy handy (it was passed on to others here), but you can reach IER at 301.913.0115, IAQ Publications, IAQPubs@aolcom, homepage www.iaqpubs.com. An earlier issue, 11/96, p.5, mentions that EMG Corp., the nation's largest real estate due diligence firm, was the first lifetime charter member of the Bldg. Air Quality Alliance. EMG is located in Hunt Valley, MD, and BAQA is at 215.387.2255, www.baqa.org. These folks should know the latest on IAQ insurance. Another good contact would be Dave Mudarri at EPA's Indoor Air program, 202.233.9030, mudarri.david@epamail.epa.gov Hope this helps, Tom --------------- Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > Tom: Do you have a copy of the article to which you refer? If you do, may I > please request a copy (if no more than 5 pages) by fax (403) 547-2671? > _________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________ > On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Tom Phillips wrote: > > FYI, insurance for indoor air quality problems is being developed for > > commercial bldg. owners, according to a recent article in Indoor > > Environment Review. The firm is based in the Northeast, I believe. It > > sounds promising if it will improve the "standard of care" for building > > design, commissioning, and maintenance. > > > > Best wishes for 1998, Tom -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 16:24:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA06849 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:24:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA10283 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:23:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03831; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:17:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:14:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA03559 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:13:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.177]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03552 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:13:48 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501 Message-ID: <21c3f3f9.34ad5876@aol.com> Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:13:23 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: rebuild island lab - contact person Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1046 Hi, When I forwarded the original post I forgot to include an email address for the original poster - the original post came from Kate Smith SMITH.KATE@NMNH.SI.EDU - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 16:34:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA06947 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:34:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA13105 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:33:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA04543; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:28:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:24:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04061 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:24:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04057 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:24:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.100.59]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA4833; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:29:17 +0000 Message-ID: <34AD5AFD.847925D7@which.net> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 21:24:14 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Public Compost Toilets X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <34AD0397.1D03@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1047 If you have a separate standup urinal, do you need a liftable seat? Malcolm Scott Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Dan wrote: > > > You should post $100 fines for > > leaving the seat up. (Not high enough, but probably as much as a > judge will > > allow.) All vents should be well screened. > > Wouldn't a simple spring mechanism on the lid be more effective, as > well > as more fun. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 20:09:13 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA10422 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:09:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA27558 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:08:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA11884; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:03:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:58:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11493 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:57:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.172]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA11486 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:57:50 -0500 (EST) From: LOCASKY Message-ID: Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 19:57:42 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: an autocad program Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1048 Could someone please refer me to an inexpensive drafting program that could be used by a beginner.? thanks much ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 21:11:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA11001 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:11:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA17677 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:10:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA13470; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:05:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:01:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA13232 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:00:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA13228 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:00:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sa3.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.132]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id VAA28733 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:06:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34AD9BF3.6A42@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 21:01:48 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Autocad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1049 LOCASKY wrote: > Could someone please refer me to an inexpensive drafting program that could > be used by a beginner.? thanks much What do you mean by cheap? They run anywhere from under $50 to over $5,000. What are you looking to do? Are you a builder and need all of the materials lists, cut lists and working drawings, or are you looking for just a rendering tool? The range of options is as large as the price range. I have used Autocad light, Archicad, Minicad and I have played with Cadsoft and Softplan. The program I earn my living with is SolidBuilder, component list price $3,785, but bundled price is actually $1995. This gives you some idea how flexible software pricing can be. Autocad light can be had for under $500, Minicad for $600 and I think Turbocad is down under $50. I don't know a thing about Turbocad, but Minicad is the best value I believe, especially if you are looking for a rendering tool, not a contractors tool. I'm sure there will be a broad difference of opinion here. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 22:11:04 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA12452 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:11:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA03624 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:10:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA15166; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:01:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA14907 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:01:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA14903 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:01:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dial-107-MAX-BTVT-04.ramp.together.net [208.5.164.107]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA14938; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:05:56 -0500 Message-ID: <34ADAB0A.4942@together.net> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 22:05:46 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LOCASKY CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: an autocad program References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1050 If you are a beginner, as I am to automated drafting (I have mastered the old fashioned hand drafting during a previous lifetime), my advice is avoid AutoCAD in all in it's mutant forms, including AutoCAD Lite for Windows. I have had it for a couple of years and all I can do is barely plot drawings with it. No kidding. I farm out all my drafting work. It is the only software program I have not been able to figure out, with or without a manual. It does not use the standard Windows style mouse commands (I have latest version). My "Threshold of Frustration" with AutoCAD is lower than a snakes belly. I tried Visio Technical 6 months ago for automated controls diagrams and schematic systems flow diagrams. Fell in love with it. Not real great for general GC type drafting. Tom Anderson LOCASKY wrote: > > Could someone please refer me to an inexpensive drafting program that could > be used by a beginner.? thanks much > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 2 23:48:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA13552 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 23:48:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA29859 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 23:47:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17264; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 23:42:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Jan 1998 23:38:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17004 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 23:37:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17000 for ; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 23:37:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA07511; Fri, 2 Jan 1998 21:42:47 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-125.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.125), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd007455; Fri Jan 2 21:42:42 1998 Message-ID: <34ADC182.E3019211@primenet.com> Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 21:41:38 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hvac@together.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: an autocad program References: <34ADAB0A.4942@together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1051 I have to differ with Tom Anderson. I use autocad and think it is an excellent program. I self-taught myself in about two months and have done several houses (bought off by building departments) and I submitted some drawings to the Army Corp. of engineers for a gymnasium project at Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas without a hitch. I designed one straw bale house and I am currently working on a Rastra Block System house. While blowing my own horn somewhat, the real point is that I did all this from beginning to end in 1997 and I think the program is fantastic. You can do property layouts from survey descriptions, design houses and revamp them in extremely short order; the layering feature allows you to do all construction drawings i.e.. foundation, floor plan, electric detail, plumbing detail etc. all from one drawing. You can do furniture layout and figure out where to put the swing set in the backyard. I haven't done any three dimensional things yet (my project for 1998). I have played with many cad packages and hands down Autocad is the standard. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 3 08:51:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA18274 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 08:51:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA25170 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 08:50:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26587; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 08:45:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 3 Jan 1998 08:41:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26362 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 08:41:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.170]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26358; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 08:41:01 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <5317d6e0.34ae40cb@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 08:44:40 EST To: mch@essential.org, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, OFFUTT.STEPHEN@EPAMAIL.EPA.GOV, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: California Rice Straw & Recycled Paper Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1052 While I agree that use of agricultural residue industrially is better than burning it, it is the same sort of comparison as enslaving people is better than murdering them. Increasingly, food systems are perfused with the industrial model, functioning as chemical feedstock factories. If you look at the outlines of a moder farm in the North American midwest (and many other places), it is difficult to distinguish from any other chemical factory. With this mindset comes the environmental disdain that so thoroughly characterizes the chemical industry. Removal of the residual organic matter for a feedstock (or by burning), is evidence of disdain for the soil base upon which the productivity of the farm rests. It is true that in the production line, monocrop, industrial model, such residues are difficult disposal problems. This is because the farms are incomplete. Where livestock is present, the material is usable for feed, bedding, and components of compost piles to hold manures during off seasons. It could also be used as high carbon material to add to composting toilets, to refer to another thread on this list. I admit to being torn between two views when it comes to making boards and paper from farm residue. In some cases, such as banana plantations, the utilization of huge quantities of banana fiber for paper is an obvious step, though orders of magnitude behind anything that would justify the ecological horror of the plantation. In the case of temperate soils, where soil organic matter plays a more important role*, one would like to see the straw, stalks, etc., returned to the soil where they can do far more good. At the same time one feels drawn to methods that replace deforestation (or, more likely, supplement it) for paper with paper made from annual plants. Fortunately these are not the only alternatives. Besides conservation and reuse, there is paper recycling, drastically underutilized in the industrialized countries. (I'm not sure about Japan, however.) And there is the potential for biological sewage treatment plants where sewage is too toxic to apply to edible crops. Aquatic and wetland plants used in such systems have phenomenal yield, make great paper, and clean up the water. One of the best classes of construction material, bamboo, can be grown in adjacent areas. (Only a small percentage of bamboo species tolerate waterlogged soil for any length of time, though many do well on high water tables.) Bamboo, besides its legendary and documented strength and elasticity, grows rapidly. USDA studies in the 1950s (when I was a teenage information specialist for USDA, ARS) showed that in ordinary situations bamboo way outproduces pine as a paper fiber crop, meaning higher quality paper with less forest coopted, at least for that purpose. (These "Plant Utilization Stations" have since been disbanded.) Bamboo paper is second only to banana paper in quality. Moreover, hybrid willows and poplars can be part of such a sewage treatment system. These can provide new fiber to add to recycled paper when we get smart enough so that it is recycled and recycled and shortened fibers become a problem. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 3 09:04:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA18331 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:04:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA26645 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:04:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA27262; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 08:59:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 3 Jan 1998 08:55:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26917 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 08:54:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from dns.img.net (dns.img.net [207.34.144.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26911 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 08:54:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from prayan (port102.img.net [207.34.144.102]) by dns.img.net (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with ESMTP id AAA106 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 06:09:23 -0800 Reply-To: From: "Visser, Prayan" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #496 Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 06:07:10 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980103140922232.AAA106@port102.img.net> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1053 Hi all, i found this in my mail box, did you ever have a lookat the superb comtent of this publication, and so much on the web, an excellent education in all design and nature and social evolution. Highly recommended. CI-NEWS Context Institute's E-Mail Newsletter -- 29 Dec 1997 -- =================== Context Institute Tel +1 360 221 6044 | Fax +1 360 221 6045 PO Box 946, Langley, WA 98260 USA ci@context.org | http://www.context.org =================== Subscribe: send E-mail to Majordomo@whidbey.net with the message: subscribe ci-news. It's free. Copyright 1997 by Context Institute. May be freely redistributed with this header =================================================== My good friend Ann Medlock -- founder of the Giraffe Project (http://www.giraffe.org/giraffe/) and CI Board member -- has prevailed on me to send you this special message. FROM ANN MEDLOCK: To you, the user of this invaluable Context Institute resource, 22 years ago, Robert Gilman, PhD in astrophysics, turned his eyes from the skies to the world around him and decided that the stars could wait but the planet couldn't. He and his wife/partner Diane decided to dedicate their lives to making sure that humanity and Planet Earth managed to sustain each other. Together they founded Context Institute to help the best minds alive focus on sustainability. First in print as the IN CONTEXT quarterly, now on the internet with the incredibly rich resource that is www.context.org, their work has been key to the Voluntary Simplicity movement, to the environmental movement, to bringing these once "fringe" issues to center stage. They were key players in the citizen diplomacy movement that had such an impact on the relationship between the former Soviet Union and this country. Through it all, they've lived lightly themselves, often not drawing even the modest salaries that have been allotted to them in Context budgets. The Gilmans are now in financial crisis as they work on a stunning personal challenge: as Robert informed CI-News subscribers in August 1997, Diane has an agressive, malignant brain tumor. In their usual cutting-edge mode, they are fully engaged in pioneering ways of dealing with the cancer, following the brain surgery that removed the first manifestation of the tumor. Health insurance covered the surgery but most of the health care they are now doing is not covered. Robert's time and strength are taken up in caring for Diane, so fees for his services as a writer, speaker, and workshop leader are almost non-existent. Without the assets they'd now have if he'd stayed on the path to university tenure--or even if they had not passed on drawing their Context salaries--they are in deep financial peril. As a Context Board member, I think the solution to this crisis is to raise all the money that was supposed to be paid to the Gilmans for their work at Context. On the books, their salaries have been a mere $24,000 a year. The amount of this that hasn't been paid over the years now adds up to $193,000. If they are paid for the work they've already done, it will help carry them through these new perilous waters. Please stand and be counted in the community of those of us who honor the Gilman's contribution to all our lives, those of us who are now contributing back whatever we can, now that they need us. Please send your check for the Context Institute back salary fund to Context Institute, PO Box 946, Langley WA 98260, or contribute through the website at http://www.context.org/FUND/support.htm. Make it an appreciation of all that the Gilmans have given to us in their invaluable work. Ann Medlock PS: Please also look at the information on the Affinity telephone service (http://www.context.org/AFFINITY/affntext.htm), which will cost you nothing but further support Context Institute and the Gilmans. ************************************************ Context Institute A Catalyst for a Sustainable Future Since 1979 Tel +1 360 221 6044 Fax +1 360 221 6045 PO Box 946, Langley, WA 98260 USA IN CONTEXT on the web - http://www.context.org ************************************************ prayan visser, village scale eco design. phone 250-490-7351, cell, voice home: 497-5146 email:pvisser@img.net ---------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 3 09:08:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA18347 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:08:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA27040 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27536; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:02:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 3 Jan 1998 08:58:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA27199 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 08:58:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA27193 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 08:58:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sc26.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.219]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA15288 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:03:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34AE442D.50BA@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 08:59:09 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Autocad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1054 John, I'm afraid you will find 3D in Autocad is less than satisfactory, you can't actually model in 3D, just view. I have to agree with Tom, of all of the programs I have worked with I liked autocad the least. I found it cumbersome and limited. Autocad does own the market at this point and by that virtue has more software written for it than anyone else, 3D libraries and add-ons. That is no longer a big issue though, as software for the entire market is expanding so rapidly. What other programs have worked with? What are the rest of you working with? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 3 09:12:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA18359 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:12:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA27561 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27772; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:06:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:02:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27548 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:02:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc513.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27544 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:02:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from IEL#u#MAIL-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Sat, 03 Jan 1998 09:10:20 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 09:09:57 -0500 From: Arnie Katz To: greenbuilding@crest.org, PPierquet@us.teltech.com Subject: GBlist: Set-backs for gas hot water heaters? -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1055 Patrick: I number of years ago I looked into the savings from installing timers on electric water heaters. My conclusion was that they were neglible, unless time of use rates were a factor.All you save is some of the standby loss, which turns out to be very little in contemporary, well-insulated water heaters. I suspect the same would hold true for gas. If, however, "gone a lot of the time" is measured in days rather than hours, then you might want to simply turn the thing off when you're gone & wait half an hour for a shower. Arnie Katz Advanced Energy Raleigh, NC >>> Patrick Pierquet 01/02/98 10:56am >>> I have a standard gas hotwater heater. Since I'm gone a lot of the time, I would like to turn the temperature down during those periods. Does anyone know of a gizmo that can be retrofitted to such a heater, that could be programmed to vary the water temperature at different times of the day?(Something analogous to a setback thermostat for a furnace.) - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 3 09:31:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA18458 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:31:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA29969 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:30:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28532; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:25:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:21:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28104 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:21:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28098 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:21:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from sover.net (usr0a7.burl.sover.net [207.136.198.107]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23470 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:26:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34AE49C0.658BB754@sover.net> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 09:22:56 -0500 From: Eric Warren X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuild List Subject: Re: GBlist: California Rice Straw & Recycled Paper References: <5317d6e0.34ae40cb@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1056 Dan, I liked hearing your thoughts about the uses of "agricultural residues". I had a somewhat similar reaction upon hearing all of the talk out there of plans for using rice straw, etc. I don't have your background, but generally I wondered if we develop all of these industries around unhealthy agricultural processes, what happens when we improve these practices so that there are no longer such "waste" products associated with agriculture? But what if we begin to consider grain stocks, etc. as an agricultural product? To me the relevant part of sustainable agriculture is that anything not used is returned to the soil - there are crops which produce little organic matter which is not utilized by humans, couldn't we just consider grains, etc. as we do these? Seems to me in a responsible, ecological agriculture system, crop rotation and cover cropping could add sufficient and appropriate bio-matter to the soil. And, if we could lessen our need for virgin paper products and building materials, through reuse and recycling, as you mention, maybe we could produce what else we need through agriculture? Permacltur wrote: > > While I agree that use of agricultural residue industrially is better than > burning it, it is the same sort of comparison as enslaving people is better > than murdering them... > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 3 10:39:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA18987 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:39:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA10069 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:38:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00308; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:33:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:29:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00011 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:29:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.167]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00007 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:29:05 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501 Message-ID: <4ef513a.34ae5a48@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:33:26 EST To: LOCASKY@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: an autocad program Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1057 In a message dated 1/2/98 8:07:41 PM, you wrote: <> Turbocad. Runs on Mac and Windows. In basic form it's a twoD cad program that sells for less than $100. I find it is easier to learn than autocad (still not as easy as freehand, canvas or clarisdraw). It is pretty powerful and exports pretty well to autocad. And it's pretty cheap. For $250 or so you can get the professional edition which comes with numerous (mostly uneeded for residential buildings) libraries and a 3D program (the 3D program is substantially less intuitive than the 2D). For something in the $700 range, I like minicad, also crossplatform and fairly easy to use and learn. Has a linked database and a 3D program. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 3 12:11:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA20015 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:11:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA01214 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:10:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03177; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:05:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:01:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02875 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:00:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.170]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02865; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:00:54 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <15cfd1e5.34ae6e13@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:57:52 EST To: jonwil@primenet.com, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, hvac@together.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: an autocad program Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1058 While folks are recommending drafting and design programs for beginners, I'd like to put in a request that programs for Macs be included. If I can't do it on my Mac, it won't get done on a computer. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 3 12:36:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA20630 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:36:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA07545 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:35:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04104; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:31:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:27:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03801 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:26:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo01.mx.aol.com (imo01.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03797; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:26:54 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <25ff0fcc.34ae75b8@aol.com> Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 12:30:29 EST To: ewarren@sover.net, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: California Rice Straw & Recycled Paper Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1059 In a message dated 1/3/98 9:28:31 AM, you wrote: << But what if we begin to consider grain stocks, etc. as an agricultural product? To me the relevant part of sustainable agriculture is that anything not used is returned to the soil - there are crops which produce little organic matter which is not utilized by humans, couldn't we just consider grains, etc. as we do these? Seems to me in a responsible, ecological agriculture system, crop rotation and cover cropping could add sufficient and appropriate bio-matter to the soil. And, if we could lessen our need for virgin paper products and building materials, through reuse and recycling, as you mention, maybe we could produce what else we need through agriculture? >> Nice reply. I'm not sure how far to go into "sustainable agriculture," which I regard as an oxymoron. Generally, when you grow green manure, you use grains, maybe with some legumes. What is the crop rotation in a California rice farm. I naively assumed it was rice, rice, and more rice, but I have no direct knowledte. Certainly crops that are mostly used, like sugar cane, are way out on the unsustainable end. There are three different scenarios, well four including deserts. 1) Temperate crop lands, 2) tropical crop lands, 3) muck food production (e.g. paddi production such as rice and taro, and 4) deserts. Organic matter is of importance to each of these, but generally in quite different ways with reasonable amounts of overlap. My objection is to industrial agriculture. People make plastic from soybeans, fuel from corn and cane, etc. Already agriculture is seen as a feedstock manufacturing operation a quarter step up from mining. It is run that way. We should return ALL organic matter to soils. Cellulose is stable and can be used a while, as in building. We can burn a bit for fuel, but we had better be harvesting responsibily, which, as a species, we are not. Manure of organisms needs that eat plants (and eat things that eat plantes, etc., etc.) needs to return to the soil. If you look at wheat, say growing in Kansas, the rotation is wheat, sorghum, wheat, shorgum, ad infinitum. Not exactly a balanced ecosystem, particularly when you are plowing every possible square inche from the Mississippi to the Rockies. Winter wheat helps hold the soil during the dry prairie winter months. The amount of moisture contirubed by blowing snow (which sublimates if not trapped) is directly proportional to the length of stubble left by the last crop. Virtually no organic matter returns to the soil, except by accident. Like the rice fields in California, farmers just burn off the fields, so that you a line of fire miles long and the air is black with smoke. Sure, paper products are better than this, That is what I said. However the entire system is ecologically corrupt and a dead end, meaning a dead end for most of our species, if not all. The soil is blowing from these regions faster than during the dustbowl. Figures are floating around alike 20 bushels of soil lost for every bushel of wheat harvested. Start with a phenominal resource base and you can be doing that for a few generations. H You may have noticed that the climate is less reliable. Soil organic matter makes a huge difference in the ability of crops to withstand shifts and instabilities of climate. Plants in high organic soil are far more likely to give acceptable yields in drought years than crops in most USA/Canada fields. (Add about 200 other countries.) If any crops survive flooding, and go on to produce, they are likely to be those in high-organic soils. (This does not necessarily mean soils managed by an approved "organic" method. Some "organic method" soils are ok, some farmers do a better job without conforming.) I'm using Kansas wheat rather than California Rice because I don't know exactly how that rice is grown. I am under the impression that it is wetland rice grown with flooding, on a rice, rice, rice rotation, but I can't swear to that. Wetland systems are different. They don't get wind erosion, there should be little or no water erosion (meaning little lateral current), be indifferent to all but the most severe flooding, and resistant to all but cataclysmic droughts. However sustainable rice culture, call it rice gardening, has traditionally involved returning a great deal of organic matter to paddies, as straw as manure, etc. If it is burned for fuel, then the ash should be returned. (We are talking here about a small fraction being used for minimal supplements to family cooking fuel. Beats burning the water buffalo dung.) I am pretty ignorant about much of what goes on in this list. I skip about half the topics because I've never heard of the acronyms for processes and products that people throw around. I'm hear to learn in that fraction of threads where I can understand what is being exchanged and have an interest. I jumped in on the rice straw issue because this is exactly my life's work--looking at whole systems from the perspective of sustainability and designing new systems or, when possible, retrofits, as needed. Building industries, even industries that take pressure off forests, on a disappearing soil base is not sustainable. Building industries that provide incentive to continue to undermine the base, inthis case soil, that is assumed for capitalization, that doubly lacks prudence in my persoanal opinion as an interested lay person. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 3 13:13:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA21300 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:13:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA16839 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:12:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05527; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:07:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:03:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05281 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05277 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:03:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sa5-p57.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.249]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA04669 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:08:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34AE7D9B.293@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 13:04:12 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Autocad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1060 For Tom or anyone else looking to farm out their drafting/working drawings, I would be happy to accomodate. As I said, I use SolidBuilder as my primary tool, it is specifically design for construction, particularly residential. It is not a cad program modified for architecture. For nonconstruction or simple rendering I use one of the others. Contact me directly at ashcreek@dreamscape.com End of commercial. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 3 13:34:15 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA21467 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:34:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA21579 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:33:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06261; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:28:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:24:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06010 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:24:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06006 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:24:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [198.5.254.169] (ke-ppp19.hevanet.com [198.5.254.169]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28778 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:29:01 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: obrien@pop.hevanet.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34AE442D.50BA@dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:43:57 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Michael O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Autocad Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1061 Hi, All-- For Mac users, Marc Rosenbaum told me about an excellent program called Blueprint. Check it out at http://www.diehlgraphsoft.com/products/BP/Blue.html. Best, Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 3 13:46:59 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA21729 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:46:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA24799 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:46:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06878; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:41:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:37:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06450 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06445 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:36:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (1Cust146.tnt6.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.120.146]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA17020; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 10:41:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801031841.KAA17020@germany.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: wliebold@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 13:40:10 -0500 To: hvac@together.net, LOCASKY From: Warren Liebold Subject: Re: GBlist: an autocad program Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <34ADAB0A.4942@together.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1062 I agree completely that the words "beginner," "cheap," and AutoCAD do not go together. The CADettes in my agency are recommending Imagineer, which I believe is from Intergraph. It's mechanically-oriented but it's apparently easy to use and saves drawing in .DXF and .DWG formats, so if you need to send them along to someone with a heavier program, they can use the files. I'll let you know more once I've tried it out. Warren Liebold wliebold@earthlink.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 3 13:48:05 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA21754 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:48:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA25069 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:47:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06963; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:42:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:38:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06522 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:38:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06518 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:38:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sa5-p57.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.249]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA12194 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:43:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34AE85B8.1632@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 13:38:48 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: CAD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1063 Michael wrote: > For Mac users, Marc Rosenbaum told me about an excellent program called > Blueprint. Check it out at Diehl Graphsoft are the makers of Minicad, Blueprint is just what it sounds like, a simple 2D drafting program. If that is all you need, Graphsoft makes great tools. Mincad is available in either Mac or Wintel, Blueprint might be as well. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 3 18:04:59 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA26652 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:04:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA25764 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 18:04:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13027; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:59:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:54:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA12720 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:54:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.177]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA12716 for ; Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:54:29 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO Message-ID: Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:58:51 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: GBlist - CAD Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1064 I've enjoyed using Generic CADD for several years, although it was bought by Autodesk (Autocad's company) a while back and may not still be sold/supported. We are now using Autocad without too much problem. Did someone on this thread mention a program which does rendering? I'd be interested to hear more about this. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 4 15:47:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA16899 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:47:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA26572 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:46:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10888; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:41:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:36:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10526 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:36:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from orion.bdc.bethel.me.us (orion.bdc.bethel.me.us [198.202.151.245]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10522 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:36:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from bdc.bethel.me.us (Async8.ts-bethel.bdc.bethel.me.us [130.111.20.30]) by orion.bdc.bethel.me.us (8.8.5/SCO5) with ESMTP id PAA09261 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:40:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34AFF4E6.2ACCAF58@bdc.bethel.me.us> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 15:45:27 -0500 From: Michael Poirier X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Dorwin Windows Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1065 New to the list and not certain how well this question fits in here........Any one with any experience with windows made by Dorwin Co. in Canada???/ Joined the list because I plan to build on my own this spring and want to try to do it an a manner that is as eco-conscious and energy efficiently as possible, so hope to get some ideas from this list. Thanks Michael Poirier Bethel Maine ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 4 22:53:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA22822 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:53:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA03852 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA26204; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:47:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:43:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA25887 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:42:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25882 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:42:53 -0500 (EST) From: LOCASKY Message-ID: <36e2208d.34b05625@aol.com> Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:40:19 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: residential building plans Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1066 I am looking for someone who is familiar with "insulated concrete forms" and who can draw me a set of plans so that I can submit them for a building permit. Insulated concrete forms go together like Legos, then concrete is poured into them, and they make the outside walls. There are various manufacturers, such as Ice Block, Keeva. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 5 01:58:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA25689 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 01:58:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA09849 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 01:57:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA01082; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 01:52:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 5 Jan 1998 01:47:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA00847 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 01:47:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA00843 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 01:47:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (usr40.cwo.com [207.173.173.50]) by mail.cwo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA24203 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:53:49 -0800 Message-Id: <199801050653.WAA24203@mail.cwo.com> Reply-To: From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: Gas W/H Setback devices Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:52:07 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1067 Arnie, Patrick, et al (whoever "al" is), Actually, it isn't the same story for gas as for electric. because gas water heaters have central chimneys (so to speak) for exhausting the products of combustion, they radiate off and convect off much more heat than electric water heaters. The stand-by losses are significantly higher. To make a comparison of the two check out the California Energy Commission's on-line directory of approved appliances. I should know the address off the top of my head but I don't. Any Yahoo (or Lycos) can tell you hoe to get there though. The standby losses are just one part of the energy usage, so for other purporses (besides trying to reduce standby losses) don't conclude that electric W/Hs are more efficient thatn gas; they are much less so. If you take into account the inefficiencies of producing electricity (~40% efficient), transmitting it from the power plant (~85-95% efficient), and distribution (~95% efficient), then gas W/Hs far outperform electric ones where natural gas is available; even considering standby losses. Nehemiah Stone California Energy Commission > Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 09:09:57 -0500 > From: Arnie Katz > Subject: GBlist: Set-backs for gas hot water heaters? -Reply > > Patrick: I number of years ago I looked into the savings from installing timers on electric water > heaters. My conclusion was that they were neglible, unless time of use rates were a factor.All you > save is some of the standby loss, which turns out to be very little in contemporary, well-insulated > water heaters. I suspect the same would hold true for gas. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 5 08:10:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA02588 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:10:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA21217 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:09:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07367; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:04:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:59:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA07074 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:59:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07065 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:59:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.25.64.211] (usr2a15.rut.sover.net [206.25.64.211]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA05947 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:04:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:04:24 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: NMBlues Subject: GBlist: RE: DataCAD Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1068 Ohhh---I have some expertise here---I lurk so much Short[er] version: I recommend DataCAD--MAC (not updated as often, i believe--and may have been discontinued) or PC--professional with lots of 3D capabilities---i do client walkthrus and print 3D perspectives and isos, etc.--will do some rendering though I have not mastered--will do takeoff printouts of materials based on symbols you create with prices (I have not mastered this but am working on it). Intuitive --many commands are old drafting commands for those of us who used to do the rapidiograph, pencil, etc. on mylar or vellum deal. Creates .dxf files to share with all those engineers who use autocad. Updates every year add new features---Version 8 due in 1998 is supposed to work in Windows 95, not DOS (as the Datacad version 7.5 i have does now)---i have basic version which performs all the stuff above--i spend about $150 bucks per year because I like to keep updated. Unlike AutoCAD, the rules about layers and colors and symbols are a lot more flexible--can create own linetypes, templates ( say a horizontal axis dryer with cotrols on the front), 3D symbols/templates. In short the 3D capabilities are not those of a silicon graphic's computer but are as good as- yet easier to use than intergraph's and better than Autocad (my opinion---have used all 3 programs as well as some of the inexpensive programs mentioned---have not used SolidBuilder ?sic?) Long stuff: i am a 1 person home architectural office doing public and private renovations and new striving-towards-green construction--all drafting by CAD (hand sketches for some stuff early on) done by the architect who also researches, reads this list (a cumbersome task when people get to talking like they did on 12/30/97), markets, answers phones, keeps books, etc. (oh yes, designs). One summer back when i worked for a 25 person firm, they laid off most of the computer draftsman then got a big housing renovation job that called for the drawings to be done on computer---Intergraph, Autocad or Datacad were acceptable--our office used DataCAD and Intergraph (which I have also used and find somewhat cumbersome but more intuitve than AutoCAD)-- i was given the job of producing these drawings (minimal design required, I will say) and learning the progarm for myself and simultaneouly teaching my two rookie college summer interns, all within 3 months---we, of course, worked very hard and unsustainably but completed the task with less hassle from DataCAD than our managing of two principals directing the project. Hope this is helpful to someone---there is probably a website out ther and I will do research if someone is interested. Dona Stankus, AIA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 5 10:12:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA05088 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 10:12:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA14231 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 10:11:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12788; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 10:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 5 Jan 1998 10:02:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12473 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 10:02:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12469 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 10:02:13 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KBO09278; Mon, 05 Jan 1998 10:04:54 EST To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:38:14 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Autocad Message-ID: <19980105.091524.3646.0.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <34AD9BF3.6A42@dreamscape.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,5-14,16-48 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1069 I used TurboCad often in the past. It seemed with more revisions TC just built in problems into the software and it would work less well than earlier versions. I eventually quit using it entirely. They are also typical of many software companies - very unresponsive and user unfriendly. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Fri, 02 Jan 1998 21:01:48 -0500 Chuck Hinckley writes: >LOCASKY wrote: >> Could someone please refer me to an inexpensive drafting program >that could >> be used by a beginner.? thanks much > > >What do you mean by cheap? They run anywhere from under $50 to over >$5,000. What are you looking to do? Are you a builder and need all of >the materials lists, cut lists and working drawings, or are you >looking >for just a rendering tool? The range of options is as large as the >price >range. I have used Autocad light, Archicad, Minicad and I have played >with Cadsoft and Softplan. The program I earn my living with is >SolidBuilder, component list price $3,785, but bundled price is >actually >$1995. This gives you some idea how flexible software pricing can be. >Autocad light can be had for under $500, Minicad for $600 and I think >Turbocad is down under $50. I don't know a thing about Turbocad, but >Minicad is the best value I believe, especially if you are looking for >a >rendering tool, not a contractors tool. I'm sure there will be a broad >difference of opinion here. > >Chuck Hinckley >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 5 13:49:24 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA09500 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:49:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA28259 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:48:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23393; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:43:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:38:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22735 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:38:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22722 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:38:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.13] (iplink13.crocker.com [205.246.4.13]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA26865 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:04:39 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:46:54 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Composting toilets Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1070 Someone (Dan Hemenway?) wrote... in response to John Salman's request There are three basic types of composting toilets: 1) Clivus and other high tech types. 2) Mouldering toilets. 3) Methane digesters. The choice between 1 and 2 is easy. 1 sucks. ...... Not so fast... tell us why. We (ARC Design Group) have had some experience of the Clivus system and, whilst we might suggest a number of ways to improve it, we haven't reached the .."it sucks" conclusion. The mouldering toilet option though does sound like a good route. I have visited Doug Clayton's installation in Jaffrey NH (603-532-7321) a couple of time times over the past years, and it works impressively ... with him in charge. As I recall, he is fond of diving into the "mouldering" compartment (the fallow side of a two-holer) and grabbing up a pile of "hamburger" .. so named because of the rich abundance of red wriggling worms working on his and his family's past indiscretions. Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 5 13:49:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA09502 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:49:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA28260 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:48:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23391; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:43:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:39:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22743 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:38:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22729 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:38:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.13] (iplink13.crocker.com [205.246.4.13]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA26876 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:04:43 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:46:57 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Gilman's crisis Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1071 Dear everyone, News of Diane Gilman's brain tumor, and the financial crisis that it has precipitated, is shocking to me ... and I am sure to all that know them. They are among those few class A pioneers. I know them to be careful, prudent people .. but they have also been on a mission, and there are some risks involved in taking a different path through life. The risk they took has now come to haunt them. I urge all who can to respond to Ann Medlock's plea ..... "Please send your check for the Context Institute back salary fund to Context Institute, PO Box 946, Langley WA 98260" Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 5 14:14:15 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA10262 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:14:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA06682 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:13:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24800; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:08:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:04:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24506 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24502 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:03:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id O}Y14125; Mon, 05 Jan 1998 14:06:46 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:31:39 -0900 Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V1 #495 Message-ID: <19980105.100458.11006.0.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199801010700.CAA08016@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3-4,6,8-9,11,13-15,19-21 From: woodeneagle@juno.com (R. Scott Waterman) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1072 <> Additionally, though I have no data to back this up, the emphsis that greenbuiders put on proper moisture levels inhibit the growth of mold and mildew, cutting down on negative health effects. (Asthma, respiratory problems and the like) Anyone done any studies on this type of issue? Scott Waterman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 5 14:30:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA10466 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:30:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA14807 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:29:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25648; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:24:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:20:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25280 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:20:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from millkern.com (millkern.com [205.197.248.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25276 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:20:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnatella (asc84.idsonline.com [207.176.21.84]) by millkern.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA15897; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:25:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980105142618.0070d738@scgcorp.com> X-Sender: dnatella@scgcorp.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 14:26:18 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, lenore From: Dave Natella Subject: Re: GBlist: cinva ram Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1073 Try contacting Michael Moquin, editor of the: Adobe Journal P.O. Box 7725 Albuquerque, NM 87194 Tel. (505)243-7801 He did not have e-mail as of a few years ago. Michael was a good source to us for a wide variety of earth construction information. Dave Natella The Scientific Consulting Group, Inc. >I'm forwarding this request in the hopes that someone on the list can help. >Please respond to Lenore directly. > >Thanks, Nadav >Environmental Building News > >>Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 13:42:26 -0500 >>From: lenore [snip] >>Subject: cinva ram >> >>I am an ex Peace Corps volunteer (Nicaragua 91-93) who used a cinva ram >>to help build schools while I was there. I find myself again working in >>Nicaragua and am looking to purchase a cinva ram for a project we are >>working on. Have you any idea where I may find a cinva ram or the plans >>to build one? Thank You. >> ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 5 15:57:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA12911 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:57:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA16300 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:56:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA29960; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:51:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:45:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA29448 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:45:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from essential.essential.org (essential.org [198.4.52.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA29442 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:45:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from essential.org (franklin.essential.org [198.4.52.7]) by essential.essential.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12089; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:52:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34B148CA.1E03B781@essential.org> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 15:55:39 -0500 From: Meghan Clancy-Hepburn Reply-To: mch@essential.org Organization: wood reduction clearinghouse X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Permacltur , greenbuilding list CC: Eric Warren Subject: Re: GBlist: California Rice Straw & Recycled Paper References: <5317d6e0.34ae40cb@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1074 Dear Dan, Thank you very much for the postings you made to the GBlist re: using agricultural residues for making building materials and paper. I was very interested to read your thoughts on industrial agriculture, and I think we share many of the same concerns about resource use and degradation. My posting about the new AG-RES listserve was a short one, basically an attempt to introduce people to the fact that the listserve is out there. It did not include details about the very serious questions we are attempting to answer on the listserve-- many of which you ask in your postings here. I am very concerned, for example, that we use agricultural residues as a supplement to recycled fibers, all of which have already been harvested, and should be considered an abundant resource and given first priority by those who manufacture fiber-based products. To ignore recycled fibers as a resource in favor of a more "sexy" fiber like kenaf or what have you, would be in my opinion highly misguided. However, it is even more misguided to narrow the discussion to the point where we can't dialogue about kenaf AND ag residues AND recycled fibers AND hemp AND all the rest. I am also very concerned about erosion that results from removing organic material from the soil-- these topics and more are discussed on the AG-RES listserve. However, the real issue, and one which I don't think is being tackled adequately, is consumption. Your concerns about the "industrialization" of agriculture and the abuse of land and soil are inextricably tied to the consumptive patterns in the U.S. and abroad. Monocrop PAYS, and people will buy specific foods carried over extraordinary distances to feed an appetite that they do not even know may be regionally, seasonally, and economically inappropriate. The tragedy, as you know, is that the farmer does not benefit from this-- an average farmer continually erodes her or his soil base to receive a very small proportion of the whole food dollar. The majority of the profit now goes to the chemical companies and the food processors, shippers, and retailers. These groups drive consumption through advertising, and production by squeezing farmers' profits to where they have to produce outrageously to make a buck. (Notice the parallels to loggers, miners, etc.?) But I digress... whereas I agree with you that soil is used inappropriately, and that there are better ways to farm, and that in an ideal world, we would return MOST organic material to the soil, this clearly is not the present reality. I hope that you will consider joining the AG-RES listserve, which could benefit from your valuable opinions and obvious passion for restructuring the current agricultural paradigm. I also know that these types of discussions occur on many of the straw bale listserves and others. Perhaps you would find those listserves useful and interesting. I also look forward to more dialogue on the greenbuilding listserve about consumption. Many of the threads touch on consumption, some more directly than others. I think your perspective, Dan, on these issues will be a really important piece for thinking about how we proceed with creating shelters for people while reducing the net effect of building on the planet-- that is, not just shifting the harvest of resources from the forest to the fields, but creating ways to reduce the harvest across the board. I hope we'll all get a chance to "talk" about these issues more on this listserve and in other venues. Sincerely, Meghan Clancy-Hepburn Wood Reduction Clearinghouse P.O. Box 19367 Washington, DC 20036 mch@essential.org Permacltur wrote: > While I agree that use of agricultural residue industrially is better than > burning it, it is the same sort of comparison as enslaving people is better > than murdering them. > > Increasingly, food systems are perfused with the industrial model, functioning > as chemical feedstock factories. If you look at the outlines of a moder farm > in the North American midwest (and many other places), it is difficult to > distinguish from any other chemical factory. With this mindset comes the > environmental disdain that so thoroughly characterizes the chemical industry. > Removal of the residual organic matter for a feedstock (or by burning), is > evidence of disdain for the soil base upon which the productivity of the farm > rests. It is true that in the production line, monocrop, industrial model, > such residues are difficult disposal problems. This is because the farms are > incomplete. Where livestock is present, the material is usable for feed, > bedding, and components of compost piles to hold manures during off seasons. > It could also be used as high carbon material to add to composting toilets, to > refer to another thread on this list. > > I admit to being torn between two views when it comes to making boards and > paper from farm residue. In some cases, such as banana plantations, the > utilization of huge quantities of banana fiber for paper is an obvious step, > though orders of magnitude behind anything that would justify the ecological > horror of the plantation. In the case of temperate soils, where soil organic > matter plays a more important role*, one would like to see the straw, stalks, > etc., returned to the soil where they can do far more good. At the same time > one feels drawn to methods that replace deforestation (or, more likely, > supplement it) for paper with paper made from annual plants. Fortunately > these are not the only alternatives. Besides conservation and reuse, there is > paper recycling, drastically underutilized in the industrialized countries. > (I'm not sure about Japan, however.) And there is the potential for > biological sewage treatment plants where sewage is too toxic to apply to > edible crops. Aquatic and wetland plants used in such systems have phenomenal > yield, make great paper, and clean up the water. One of the best classes of > construction material, bamboo, can be grown in adjacent areas. (Only a small > percentage of bamboo species tolerate waterlogged soil for any length of time, > though many do well on high water tables.) Bamboo, besides its legendary and > documented strength and elasticity, grows rapidly. USDA studies in the 1950s > (when I was a teenage information specialist for USDA, ARS) showed that in > ordinary situations bamboo way outproduces pine as a paper fiber crop, meaning > higher quality paper with less forest coopted, at least for that purpose. > (These "Plant Utilization Stations" have since been disbanded.) Bamboo paper > is second only to banana paper in quality. Moreover, hybrid willows and > poplars can be part of such a sewage treatment system. These can provide new > fiber to add to recycled paper when we get smart enough so that it is recycled > and recycled and shortened fibers become a problem. > > For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), > Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, > consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence > courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, > 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, > P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com > > We don't have time to rush. > > A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at > http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 5 17:57:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA15742 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:57:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA00366 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:56:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05496; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:51:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:46:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05134 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:46:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.wa.gov (mail1.wa.gov [147.55.96.33]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05130 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:46:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from MAIL1.CO.KITSAP.WA.US ([146.218.0.15]) by mail1.wa.gov (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO205e ID# 0-0U10L2S100) with SMTP id AAA140 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:51:03 -0800 Received: from ADM#u#DO-Message_Server by MAIL1.CO.KITSAP.WA.US with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 05 Jan 1998 14:51:02 -0800 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 14:50:34 -0800 From: Dave Peters To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Grant Funds Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1075 Kitsap County Solid Waste Division (WA) and the Home Builders Association of Kitsap County have developed a green building certification program known as Build a Better Kitsap for residential construction projects. As a follow up to this program we plan to expand the residential program to include a Remodelers element which addresses the problems faced by remodelers and an entirely new program for Light Commercial Construction . Anyone have suggestions on sources for grant funds to support the development and/or implementation of these programs? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 5 20:16:13 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA18354 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:16:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA17503 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA10596; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:07:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:03:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10255 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:03:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10251 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:03:20 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <65efc60a.34b1839b@aol.com> Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:06:31 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: CAD Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1076 Friends, Cheap CAD is a oxymoron. At this point in the industries development, any real CAD program worth using has a learning curve. True CAD is powerful technology. There are many levels and many tools to master. Some programs are painful to learn, some you can teach yourself. The time you invest in any case will far outweigh any investment in software, unless your time has no value for other possible activities. I tried several of the $100-$200 type programs and found them to be easy and bad floor planning tools at best. Worse than just bad, they are so easy to use and make goofy plans with, that several prospective clients have given me poorly conceived, half baked napkin sketch equivalents, considered them to be fine architecture and expected me to bid from them. Being Mac addict I searched the market for that platform for a long time. At this point all the good surviving software for the Mac is cross platform with Windows as well. ARCHICAD appears to be the most powerful and easiest to use of all the architectural CAD programs I have seen. But since drawing typically occupies less than one quarter of my work time and being broke at the critical buying time a couple years ago, I opted not to go the $5,000 route. I chose MiniCad three versions back, faithfully upgraded and find it to be a very powerful and easy to use tool. I'd agree with the others who have called it one of the best values out there. I do complete designs from concept through working drawings as well as 3-D rendering on MiniCad. I haven't learned the 3-D well enough to call myself proficient at that aspect. I have yet to tackle the integrated take-off and estimating capacity or the custom programming. A couple years into it, my work has gradually gotten far better than I was ever able to do by hand, and now the computer adds immensely to the value I am able to offer my clients at several levels. I'll never go back to a pencil and board. I took a 10 week AutoCAD course back in version 4 (in DOS,10 years ago) and found it to be about the most frustrating thing I've done with a computer since I fed punch cards into one of those ancient hulking things car sized things back in college. AutoCad apparently has improved a lot (now at version 14), though when I was consulting with a larger design build firm, only two of their seven architects and designers were really proficient after a couple years effort, a couple others could get their work done on the program and the lead architects were strictly in the pencil mode. (though at this time, several versions and years later, most of them apparently are proficient) Despite these disparaging comments, AutoCad is the industry de facto standard, so teaching yourself that program fills out your resume for the next recession as well as getting todays work done. More important, the depth of the program and the many overlays and add ons available make it extremely powerful, (one of the causes of the complexity and learning difficulty). Especially compelling are some of the add ons like detail libraries. But for normal architecture, civil, structural or electrical engineering, or various other types of design, MiniCad offers 90% of Auto Cad power plus some features Autocad doesn't have for a fraction of the cost in dollars or learning time. For full time architects and designers, Archicad appears to be far easier and more powerful than either Minicad or Autocad and well worth investigating. Bottom line for do it yourself owner builders: A drafting board and pencil will be a lot faster if you are only doing a project for yourself one time only . Better yet an experienced architect or designer will bring a level of understanding of the architectural process to the project as well as the knowledge and wisdom born from experience that someone designing a home for the first or second time unfortunately cannot hope to match, no matter how many great books you read. For those of you thinking that investing in software is cheaper than hiring a designer, you are sadly mistaken. Good professional design is the best investment you can make in a home and will outweigh it's cost many times over. I've unfortunately seen many award winning "Green Buildings" that while compelling from an energy or engineering or groovy materials basis were quite ugly and architecturally foolish. (another topic: shouldn't good architecture be one of the criteria for a truly green building). I've seen enough computer drawn do it yourself plans, as well as those drawn by most of the hacks in the building industry to be confident in recommending strongly that you work overtime at your regular job and use the money to hire a talented designer or architect to work with. Choose carefully. (By the way, there are several good ones on this list) Later, Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 5 21:57:15 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA20720 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:57:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA28433 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:56:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA14476; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:46:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14064 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:46:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA14060 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:46:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA19156; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:51:54 -0800 Message-ID: <34B19B33.324FFB95@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 18:47:16 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mch@essential.org CC: Permacltur , greenbuilding list , Eric Warren Subject: Re: GBlist: California Rice Straw & Recycled Paper References: <5317d6e0.34ae40cb@aol.com> <34B148CA.1E03B781@essential.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1077 Both Dan and Meghan have brought up excellent concerns. The agricultural industry merits a lot of attention - it is literally reshaping the balance of our non-urban lands (current forestry practices - plantation fibre, etc. can be included in this). I think soil loss is still the prime concern but groundwater contamination both chemical and fecal from agricultural runoff is a major concern in my area. I am concerned about building becoming dependent upon agricultural waste - I think the soil loss that will result from that type of investment will not serve us well. The information we are belatedly gaining as a result of exploiting our forests I now hope will serve us somewhat in learning to maintain some forested base. Switching to agricultural residue or resource because the economic edge is no longer there in forestry will not serve our farmland any more than the forests have been served, I think we need to continue to work to clean up one aspect of our usage. I agree that the only real issues are ones of reducing consumption and conservation - not miracle substitutions. Wes Jackson (as I've mentioned before) is an excellent commentator on soil loss in N.A. Hope this discussion continues John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 5 22:24:24 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA21194 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA09276 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:23:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA15600; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:18:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:14:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15236 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:14:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15230 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:14:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from einstein.ampsc.com (einstein.ampsc.com [207.102.161.189]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA10919; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:15:59 -0800 Message-ID: <34B1A222.B75@ampsc.com> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 19:16:50 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding Listserver , F Unger Subject: Re: GBlist: re: CAD References: <65efc60a.34b1839b@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1078 F Unger wrote: > > Friends, > > Cheap CAD is a oxymoron. At this point in the industries development, any > real CAD program worth using has a learning curve. True CAD is powerful > technology. There are many levels and many tools to master. Some programs are > painful to learn, some you can teach yourself. The time you invest in any case > will far outweigh any investment in software, unless your time has no value > for other possible activities. I am suprised none have responded to, or offered comments I had about using a CAD package that uses object based design features, as opposed to the traditional line draw, etc. SolidBuilder is such a program and has more features than I have seen in any other Minicad. etc/ Comments? -- R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 6 00:36:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA23160 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:36:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA26327 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:35:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA18765; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:29:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:25:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA18472 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:25:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA18468 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:25:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sA6a-p30.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.158]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id AAA13019 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:30:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34B1C084.64CA@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 00:26:28 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: CAD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1079 Arjay wrote: > > I am suprised none have responded to, or offered comments I had about > using a CAD package that uses object based design features, as opposed > to the traditional line draw, etc. > > SolidBuilder is such a program and has more features than I have seen in > any other Minicad. etc/ > > Comments? I don't think I saw your original post, but I do use SolidBuilder and would agree that it will do some things that these others don't. The original question was predicated on cost control I think and ease of use. SB is certainly not cheap and it isn't the most intuitive program I have run. Have you seen anything new on the upcoming Windoze version? When you say to object based cad, are you refering to 3D solid modeling? For those of you not familiar with these terms, SolidBuilder is built on a graphics engine called Silver Screen, which is I think still the most powerful 3D solid modeling program around. You can actually work in 3D, your model is built in 3D, not 2D and then projected in a 3D image. It may not sound like a big difference, but you would be amazed how much more control you have working in true 3D. Your understanding of the structure and the clarity of the relationships of the various elements in the design is vastly enhanced. Any changes you need to make can be done in 3D as you are looking at the model, rather than going back and forth from 2D to 3d and back again. Arjay, how long have you been working in SB? Are you on the SB users list? Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 6 03:58:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA25622 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:58:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA26620 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:57:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA23321; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:52:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:48:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA23060 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:48:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.172]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA23056 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:48:22 -0500 (EST) From: JNH2 Message-ID: <4729462f.34b1f0d9@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 03:52:30 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Fwd: Seeking Environmentally Friendly People? Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_884076758_boundary" Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1080 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_884076758_boundary Content-ID: <0_884076758@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Considering our recent discussion of wasing machines and hoaxie stuff, this just seemed too ironic to drop into my mailbox! JIm --part0_884076758_boundary Content-ID: <0_884076758@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay01.mail.aol.com (relay01.mail.aol.com [172.31.106.125]) by air16.mail.aol.com (v37.8) with SMTP; Tue, 06 Jan 1998 00:11:44 -0500 Received: from ifow52.sulzer.ch (ifow52.inf.sulzer.ch [141.171.222.152]) by relay01.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id AAA03698; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:05:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:05:43 -0500 (EST) From: guu54@jeni.com Received: from greenfees.earthlink.net (26.morristown-05.nj.dial-access.att.net [12.68.157.26]) by ifow52.sulzer.ch (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA12404; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 06:05:43 +0200 To: guu54@jeni.com Comments: Authenticated sender is Subject: Seeking Environmentally Friendly People? 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Crowder President Help Protect The Earth’s Water Supply Ae Earth’s --part0_884076758_boundary-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 6 09:01:36 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA29055 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:01:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA00311 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:00:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA29600; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:55:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:51:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA29256 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:51:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo08.mx.aol.com (imo08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29252 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:50:58 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <18f57a2a.34b23791@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:54:22 EST To: terrain@cow-net.com, mch@essential.org, Permacltur@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, ewarren@sover.net Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: California Rice Straw & Recycled Paper Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1081 In a message dated 1/5/98 9:53:37 PM, you wrote: <> Well since plantation forestry (if forestry is defined as the art of dismembering trees) has come up, let me note that this is also a dead end. Typically, conifers are planted in monocrop: e.g. Monterey pine in most of New Zealand, Sitka spruce in most of Ireland, longleaf pines in Southeastern US plantations, douglas fir in the North American Northwest, etc. In Ireland, they have figured that four generations of even-aged Sitka spruce effectively "sterilize" the soil. It appears that conifers sequester mineral nutrients as a competition measure against more shade toleration hardwoods that require higher levels of soil fertility. (This is a personal opinion based on reading analyses of wood ash and observing trees over decades.) In the Pacific Northwest, where alder is routinely cut as a "weed," it was shown possibly 15 years ago that the alder makes the conifers grow better through its nitrogen fixing, something common sense would also indicate. I'm told alder is still routinely cut as a weed. In the Southeast, where I live now, plantations first established to grow timber for building are, in present generations of trees, pulped for paper because they will never get big enough to bother hauling to a saw mill (or bringing one into the forest, easily done with smaller diamter stock.) Whole tree harvesting (meaning twigs, stumps and roots too) is gaining in popularity. Nothing is left to feed the forest. Wildlife disappears because an even age monocrop plantation has several years when it produces NO wildlife food, other than surface browse which will be curtailed if it includes the crop plants, and then only produces annually. I like to eat more than once a year. Wildlife have similar proclivities. Meanwhile, air pollution (to simplify we can call it acid-rain complex) comes down on the entire North Temperate forests. This is something I've been intimately concerned with and I've viewed many thousands of miles of forests. We can pretty much conclude that the temperate forests are with us only temporarily. With the arctic/sub-arctic forests and tropical forests, both hard to restore, being cut as quickly as possible, this leaves an interesting situation. It is doubtful if the human species can persist without forests. Certainly agriculture as such cannot, because forests are major regulators and modifiers of climate. As they go climate swings increasingly out of control. The other major (variable) factor in climate regulation is the oceans, which of course are international dumping grounds for anything we don't want in our back yards. As if the oceans weren't our back yards. But I'll stick to forests. I can tell you that ANY biomass re remove from forests when they are stressed already reduces their ability to support life. I have cut firewood (in seeming paradox I have produced some of my income as a woodcutter at various times) in the Quabbin Reservoir watershed of Massachusetts and seen only 1 species, black birch which is a boreal species, coming in right after glacial retreat, successfully reproducing. I could cut all day without touching a live tree with my saw. In the Ithaca region of New York I walked a farm that had three forestry management practices on contiguous land. One was cut by the best forestry techinque of, say, 1930. The very best, straightest, strongest trees were left for seed. They were dying, of course, because the supporting canopy was removed from around them and the assault comes from above. (This time. We've hammered at these forests for quite a while.) Next to this, was land where selective cutting of crowded small trees, say 1-8 inches in diameter was done. The selectively cut trees were removed for fuel since this was near the farmhouse. This forest showed signs of decline but the trees were way healthier than the standing ideal specimens in the professionally timbered piece. The third area was selectively cut the same way but being much higher and steeper the wood was left to rot. Despite a considerable increase in elevation, which means a considerable increase in exposure to toxic assault, these trees were healthy enough that only a trained eye (or ring-core samples) could identify any decline. Generally, now, one sees tall trees "pruned" back to the canopy. The effect is less around water and here and there one finds patches of inexplicably healthy forests. (I've photographed these as I believe most people have never seen a healthy tree.) Alternatives to trees for paper are not merely ecologically sound, they are obviously necessary if we are to have paper. This is why people who have been talking about them for decades and decades are now being heard and that folks like the Japanese are picking up on ideas like paper from banana plantations. The day may not be far off when the paper is more profitable than the bananas. One of the merits of this greenbuilder list, to my mind is that it seeks to reduce the load that shelter places on polluting energy sources and, hopefully, on forest resources. I don't know what we do about wood. I'm in an area that shows little damage as yet because it is a swamp--areas near water hold up much longer than typical areas nearby. (I've got slides of this too--thousands of slides, actually of the whole business.) I burn trees for heat, bearing in mind that we do not have much heating load in Florida. The line where heating load=cooling load runs through Jacksonville and we are an hour or two south of that and, as I said, surrounded by moderating water (which reduces both, of course). Regarding wood use, I figure we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. Maybe I'm just a wood addict, but the basic materials of wood and glass are the most dimensionally stable materials we have, or can be properly used, and this property seems necessary to build tight structures that vent where we want them to vent and don't elsewhere. Damnit, I'm a forest bear and I can't stand not being around wood, dead and alive. (We moved here to live under giant oaks of the live oak group draped with Spanish moss that glint golden green when the breeze ripples them through columns of misted sunlight.) Given our little high ground, we are cutting smaller non-food trees to replace with fruit and nut crops, and this + hurricane windfalls (literal) will be more fuel than I can imagine using. The organic matter of rotting WOULD still be a better choice than ash for the soil, but then we would be using nuclear generated electricty and fossil propane. Well I've got strategies that I hope will add more organic matter than I remove and I'm supposed to know how to do this. Forgive my rant. My role in life, in part, is to call attention to context. This greenbuilding list is vitally important in leading the way to lighter burdens on the planet, since it affects the affluent minority who use all but a small fragment of the planet's resoruces. Adjustments in the way we live are past due, and I see this group as providing some of the mechanisms that might work. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 6 09:09:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA29108 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:09:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA02014 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:08:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00180; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:03:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:59:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA29834 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:59:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29828 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:59:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.105.63] (usrts2p63.port.net [207.237.105.63]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA29505 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:04:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801061404.JAA29505@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: GBlist: CAD Chit Chat Date: Tue, 6 Jan 98 09:06:45 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1082 Just out of curiousity, does anyone have any experience with or know how the high end CAD >Microstation Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 6 10:03:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00700 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA16513 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:02:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02016; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:57:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:52:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA01701 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:52:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01697 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:52:35 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id JIO17772; Tue, 06 Jan 1998 09:56:43 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:51:29 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Solar News Message-ID: <19980106.090528.3622.8.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-61 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1083 PASADENA, Calif., Dec. 26 /PRNewswire/ -- For the seventh consecutive year, Edison International's entry in the Tournament of Roses Parade is the event's only all-electric-powered float. Solar-charged batteries provide power for the motors, drive unit, animation, sound and intercom systems. At 55 feet long and 28 feet tall, Edison's entry is the world's largest electric vehicle. Dubbed "Our Science Project," the float features two student inventors who create a giant robotic dog using plans they found on the Internet. The creation includes a camera hidden in the robot's right eye, which will take pictures along the parade route that can be downloaded from the Internet on parade day. Edison received a special variance from the Tournament of Roses, allowing a bank of solar cells--free of floral materials--to be mounted on the back of the robot. These photovoltaic cells are similar to those that power hand-held calculators. "As the float motors down Colorado Boulevard," said Charlie Basham, Edison's float project manager, "these solar cells will power the special cameras, cellular telephones and computers that will transmit live photos from the float to our Internet web site, www.edisonx.com". Closely tailored to the parade theme, "Hav'n Fun," the float shows that science learning, mixed with the marvelous imagination of a child, is indeed fun. "In addition to underscoring the fun of science, the all-electric-float concept promotes electric-vehicle technology, green power and the use of low emission vehicles to protect the environment," Basham said. The float uses the same batteries and motors used by commercial electric vehicles, to acknowledge Edison EV (Electric Vehicles), the preferred provider of charging systems for the GM EV1 and Toyota RAV-4 electric vehicles. To highlight Edison Source's new "green power" product, EarthSource, the float utilizes 36 solar-charged batteries that power the 22-ton floral vehicle. The animation, sound system, cameras, cellular telephones and computers are powered by an additional 24 batteries. Beginning Nov. 1, more than 4,000 Edison International employees, their families and friends have committed to volunteer 25,000 hours over consecutive weekends to complete the float decoration by New Year's Day. Based in Rosemead, Calif., Edison International is the parent company of Southern California Edison, Edison Mission Energy, Edison Capital, Edison Source, Edison EV (Electric Vehicles), Edison Utility Services and Edison Select. CO: Edison International ST: California IN: UTI SU: Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 6 10:42:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA01322 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:42:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA02521 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:41:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03961; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:36:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:32:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03642 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03637 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:32:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sa20.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.149]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA22206 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:37:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34B24EA1.703@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 10:32:49 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: CAD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1084 C. Dodge wrote: "Just out of curiousity, does anyone have any experience with or know how the high end CAD >Microstation Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 6 12:45:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA03377 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:45:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA26179 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:44:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09264; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:38:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:33:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08865 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:33:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08861 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:33:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (Smail-3.2.0.97 1997-Aug-19 #8; 1997-Dec-12) (2043 bytes) via sendmail with /P:stdio/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp id (sender ) for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:38:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:38:12 -0500 (EST) From: Laura McGrath Subject: GBlist: soundproofing To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: da019@freenet.toronto.on.ca Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1085 Hello, I'm new to this list. I currently living in a house that was renovated for people with chemical and environmental sensitivities. (No particle board, no urethane, safer paint, all water is filtered, air exchanger etc etc). I was unable to live anywhere else due to my sensitivities and it's the only house of it's kind I could find. The house has been divided into 3 apartment, I'm on the ground level and have one apartment directly above me. The problem is this house has NO soundproofing! Any sounds from upstairs are amplified and are much louder in my apartment. A pen dropping is loud, other noises are louder especially since the person above me constantly drops things like glass bottles of water, telephones, etc. The woman who lives above me has told me that she can not only hear conversations from my apartment, but clearly enough that she can understand what is being said. When she uses her speaker phone I can hear the other person on the line! This is an intolerable situation. The person above me has hardwood floors and cannot use carpeting due to her sensitivities, though I seriously doubt carpeting would be enough anyway. Can anyone suggest any soundproofing that is non-toxic? Is there another list or website where I may also look for more info? BTW, I'm also looking for environmental communities or an area where people are conscientious. I would like to move from here but so far it's been impossible to find somewhere suitable. I need to find somewhere where pesticides aren't used in the immediate area. Any sites for environmental communities or similar? Any suggestions would be a big help. Thanks, Vee ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 6 13:00:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA03646 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:00:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02785 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:59:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10190; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:54:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:50:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09896 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:50:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.172]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09892 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:50:40 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:54:36 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: CAD - Microstation Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1086 Microstation is very highly regarded by an architect friend of mine who uses it. He and I have worked on several projects together, sharing files pretty easily (we're on Autocad). If you need more information on it, let me know and I'll give you his name. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 6 14:38:53 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA05329 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:38:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA14792 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:37:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14778; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:28:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14424 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:28:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14420 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:28:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from simpsons.ampsc.com (simpsons.ampsc.com [207.102.161.136]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA29850 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:30:29 -0800 Message-ID: <34B28668.5E19@ampsc.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 11:30:49 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: re: CAD] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1087 Message-ID: <34B28641.2D1D@ampsc.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 11:30:09 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Subject: Re: GBlist: re: CAD References: <65efc60a.34b1839b@aol.com> <34B1A222.B75@ampsc.com> <34B1BD29.6ECA@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck Hinckley wrote: > I don't think I saw your original post, but I do use SolidBuilder and > would agree that it will do some things that these others don't. The > original question was predicated on cost control I think and ease of > use. SB is certainly not cheap and it isn't the most intuitive program I > have run. Have you seen anything new on the upcoming Windoze version? I keep up todate, as much as I can, and the SBuilder demo I have shows no differences I can detect, yet. > When you say to object based cad, are you refering to 3D solid modeling? Yes, and no, the drawing approach of SB is different than any of the other CAD programs, and allows a non-drafting technician, etc. to produce an excellent product, with only a rudimentary knowledger of building and a list of building specifications. > For those of you not familiar with these terms, SolidBuilder is built on > a graphics engine called Silver Screen, which is I think still the most > powerful 3D solid modeling program around. You can actually work in 3D, > your model is built in 3D, not 2D and then projected in a 3D image. It > may not sound like a big difference, but you would be amazed how much > more control you have working in true 3D. Your understanding of the > structure and the clarity of the relationships of the various elements > in the design is vastly enhanced. Any changes you need to make can be > done in 3D as you are looking at the model, rather than going back and > forth from 2D to 3d and back again. Arjay, how long have you been > working in SB? Are you on the SB users list? > > Chuck Hinckley I have only completed an evaluation, I am not a designer or architect, and cost allocation does have something to do with my not getting a full working copy of SolidBuilder. In fact, I have only reviewed the demo and the only CAD program I have, is TurboCad 2.0, and I haven't drawn a thing using it. I think anyone who is involved in preliminary stages of projects, as I am, will benefit considerably from the simple dexterity of SolidBuilder. Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 6 14:42:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA05432 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:42:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA16466 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:41:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15094; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:32:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14725 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:32:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14720 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 14:32:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from simpsons.ampsc.com (simpsons.ampsc.com [207.102.161.136]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA30022; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 11:34:35 -0800 Message-ID: <34B2875F.555C@ampsc.com> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 11:34:55 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: CAD References: <34B24EA1.703@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1088 Chuck Hinckley wrote: > > C. Dodge wrote: > "Just out of curiousity, does anyone have any experience with or know > how > the high end CAD >Microstation CAD software being discussed? " > > Below find the standings from the CADD shootout in Boston, this is taken > from the Minicad sight. The actual judging was very complex and somewhat > less clear cut, but Minicad did win the overall. Microstations entrant > was Triforma. > > The CADD Shootout Challenge: > The annual 3D Designers CADD Shootout > competition called together design teams > representing 12 of the world's top CAD > softwares for a head-to-head competition > judged in 22 categories. The winner, as > judged by a panel of 12 real-life architects, > CAD professionals and industry experts > along with more than 400 architects and > professionals in attendance, walked away > with the title of "Best Overall Architectural > CADD Software" and the prestigious CAD > Cup Trophy. > > Each 3-member design team was challenged > to flex their CAD software muscle by > producing a full design project complete > with elevations, perspectives and > QuickTime animations, in only three hours. > > > > The Case: > The goal-- to produce a New England-style > church, built on a slope facing the sea-- was > not revealed until the start of the shootout. > And, to add realism to the event, aspects of > the design criteria were changed every 30 > minutes for the first 1.5 hours of the > competition! > > Overall Competitor > Standings > 1 > MiniCAD 7 > $795 > 2 > AllPlan > $4,995 > 3 > TriForma > $5,325 > 4 > ArchiCAD > $4,995 > 5 > Arris > $4,250* > 6 > DataCAD > $249 > 7 > DenebaCAD > $799 > 8 > Architrion > $4,000 > 9 > Architech.PC > $3,500 > 10 > Arc+/Virtus > $1,595 > 11 > BuildersCAD > $1,995 > 12 > AutoCAD > 14 > $7,250 > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ I would suggest that SolidBuilder was not invited to participate....... Richard. -- R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 6 16:07:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA08296 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:07:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA23534 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:06:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18917; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:01:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:54:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18467 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:54:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.177]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18463 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:54:07 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <7a2f504b.34b29ae9@aol.com> Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:58:15 EST Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Wood stability Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1089 Along the axis parallel to the grain, wood is one of the most dimensionally stable materials known. Much of the art of the woodworker (which I am not) is in knowing how to use this property and how to avoid the slop along the other axes, particuarly in response to humidity changes. Around 1968 I was at the National Bureau of Standards lab somewhere on the Beltway around DC--don't exactly recall any more. they showed me an old wooden Kodak view camer that they had rigged for the calibration of WAVELENGTHS. Now your buildings, even if they utilize this principle, aren't going to hold dimensions that closely, but obviously they don't need to. Properly designed, wood and glass devices, such as greenhouses, exhibit great dimensional stability. Yes wood twists in the process of drying. Glass actually FLOWS in its manufacture process. It is possible to use the twist, too, if you are building post and beam, to lock members into place, I'm told. All this is aside the point of the stability of wood on its long axis. Sorry not to reply to the poster who chided me--lost the email somehow. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 6 17:48:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA09588 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:48:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA08080 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:47:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20392; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:25:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:19:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA19822 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:19:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from sirocco.CC.McGill.CA (sirocco.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.27.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA19809 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:18:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from 132.206.23.105 ([132.206.23.105]) by sirocco.CC.McGill.CA (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id QAA10475 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:23:52 -0500 X-SMTP-Posting-Origin: 132.206.23.105 ([132.206.23.105]) Message-ID: <34B2933F.6C02@po-box.mcgill.ca> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 16:25:35 -0400 From: sherry poon Reply-To: spoon@po-box.mcgill.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: ecological education References: <199801060700.CAA20526@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1090 Are there any recommendations of strong graduate programs specializing in ecological architecture or sustainable design? I am open to schools located anywhere on the globe. Sherry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 6 17:48:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA09592 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:48:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA08085 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:47:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA19736; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:17:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:12:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA19267 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:12:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19260 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:12:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust49.tnt7.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.20.49]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA09687; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:15:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B29F1A.212E@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 13:16:10 -0800 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Laura McGrath CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: soundproofing References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1091 Laura McGrath wrote: ...Can anyone suggest > any soundproofing that is non-toxic? This depends upon what your definition of non-toxic is, and I would imagine that budget is also important (Just about anything can be done with enough money) Sound can travel through free air space and through solid materials. Free air space can be filled: close gaps under doors, between floor boards, etc, plus stuff insulation between the joists. There are numerous types of insulation you can use, with varying degrees of toxicity. This will attenuate much of the verbal kinds of sound. Punctuated sound traveling down from one floor to another is mostly travelling through the materials itself (footsteps, pens dropping, etc). Far and away the best way to absorb this is with mass: anything solid and heavy. A 3" concrete slab on the floor above will probably do more the improve the STC (Sound Transmission Coefficient) than anything else. However the potential engineering for that kind of weight, plus the associated cost often puts that solution out of reach. A common alternative is to install metal channels (here in the Bay Area refered to RC-1) across the undersides of the joists (12" on center), and attach a double layer of 5/8" sheetrock for a new ceiling surface. 1-1/4" of rock is pretty massive, and the channel provides a good break in material. Hope you're not sensitive to gypsum or drywall mud. Summary: double 5/8" sheetrock on RC-1 over well-insulated stick-framing is the common recipe for make-shift sound studios. Weather-stripped soild doors are a must, too. Good luck. Seth Melchert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 6 22:35:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA13889 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:35:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA12332 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:34:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA07273; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:29:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:24:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA06843 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:23:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06839 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:23:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.29] (blf29.acadia.net [205.217.217.29]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA17756 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:28:42 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 22:26:48 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: soundproofing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1092 Quote: >Laura McGrath wrote: >...Can anyone suggest >> any soundproofing that is non-toxic? > >This depends upon what your definition of non-toxic is, and I would >imagine that budget is also important (Just about anything can be done >with enough money) > >Sound can travel through free air space and through solid materials. >Free air space can be filled: close gaps under doors, between floor >boards, etc, plus stuff insulation between the joists. There are >numerous types of insulation you can use, with varying degrees of >toxicity. This will attenuate much of the verbal kinds of sound. > >Punctuated sound traveling down from one floor to another is mostly >travelling through the materials itself (footsteps, pens dropping, etc). >Far and away the best way to absorb this is with mass: anything solid >and heavy. A 3" concrete slab on the floor above will probably do more >the improve the STC (Sound Transmission Coefficient) than anything else. >However the potential engineering for that kind of weight, plus the >associated cost often puts that solution out of reach. > >A common alternative is to install metal channels (here in the Bay Area >refered to RC-1) across the undersides of the joists (12" on center), >and attach a double layer of 5/8" sheetrock for a new ceiling surface. >1-1/4" of rock is pretty massive, and the channel provides a good break >in material. Hope you're not sensitive to gypsum or drywall mud. > >Summary: double 5/8" sheetrock on RC-1 over well-insulated stick-framing >is the common recipe for make-shift sound studios. Weather-stripped >soild doors are a must, too. > >Good luck. > >Seth Melchert end of quote Seth's advice jibes with my experience, but I'd like to add a few points. RC-! refers to resilient channel, and this is important. Not just any metal channel will work. Resilient channel works like a leaf spring, absorbing the vibration caused by sound waves, instead of transmitting the waves to adjoining space. If you're chemically sensitive, the channel may have to be washed with liquid castile soap (Dr. Bronner's, etc.) before installation, to clean off the machine oil on the metal. Channel helps dampen high-frequency noise. Low-frequqency noise (bass sounds) transmits better than high, and is best stopped by mass - which is why a double layer of gypsum board would complement the resilient channel. Even better would be a layer of gypsum board of a layer or concrete based tile-backer board, but that's expensive and hard for many sensitive folks to tolerate. Many sensitive folks tolerate gypsum board, and there are low-toxic drywall compounds available through suppliers who cater to chemically-sensitive folfs (AMF for instance). The sound which reaches your apartment may be made more annoying by echoing within your living space, especially if you have lots of hard surfaces, which is likely, since you can't tolerate carpet, most upholstery, etc. Any soft, plush material that you can tolerate will help. There may also be sources of low-tox ceiling acoustic tiles. John Bower, who is on this list, is a renowned authority on healthy indoor environments. Can you help, John? Good luck. - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 6 23:37:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA14690 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:37:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA03663 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:36:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09882; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:31:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:27:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA09600 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:27:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09596 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:27:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.org (uucp@localhost) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id XAA18926; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:32:09 -0500 From: Michael_Shaw@together.org (Michael Shaw) Reply-To: Michael_Shaw@together.org To: spoon@po-box.mcgill.ca Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: ecological education Date: 07 Jan 1998 04:21:39 GMT Message-Id: <3745378269.70364686@together.org> Organization: TogetherNet Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1093 William McDonough is Dean of the School of Architecture of the University of Virginia, Sim Van Der Ryn teaches at Berkeley, John Todd is in the Department of Natural Resources at the University of Vermont, David Orr is head of the School of Environmental Science at the Oberlin College. Best wishes, Michael Shaw ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 7 12:07:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25304 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:07:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA15658 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:06:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28826; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:01:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:57:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28380 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:56:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28373 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:56:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MDI21702; Wed, 07 Jan 1998 12:01:16 EST To: da019@freenet.toronto.on.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: soundproofing Message-ID: <19980107.125748.7311.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4,7-8,10-14 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 12:01:16 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1094 Laura, The Homosote Company makes a sounproofing material from recycled phone books. I am not sure of its toxicity, but you might wish to contact them. A thin layer between the ceiling would help. If, as in some buildings with wood flooring, there is no secondary ceiling between the two units, you might have to request a dropped ceiling be built over the sound barrier. You also might suggest your neighbor invest in cotton area rugs (non-allergenic and washable) with a non-toxic padding underneath. Beverly A. Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 7 13:10:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA26327 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:10:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA05171 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:09:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02983; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:04:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:59:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02360 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:59:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02347; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:59:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA23780; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:04:42 -0800 Message-ID: <34B3C2A0.47FA8C4B@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 10:00:00 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , EE-Building Subject: GBlist: Million solar roofs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1095 Any Americans or Canadian snoopers have any background on this - web site is woefully thin. Utilities involved? Direct metering applications? Any Canadian involvement? John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 7 13:18:21 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA26470 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:18:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA07882 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03548; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:11:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:07:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03150 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:07:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03145 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:07:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA23917; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:12:34 -0800 Message-ID: <34B3C478.F8408BFF@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 10:07:52 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Permacltur CC: mch@essential.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, ewarren@sover.net Subject: Re: GBlist: California Rice Straw & Recycled Paper References: <18f57a2a.34b23791@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1096 Permacltur wrote: > I share your observations and opinions on this. Chris Maser brought up the > question how much organic material can be removed from a forest with any kind of > balance. My opinion here in the Pacific Northwest is that no material can be > removed. Root development becomes shallower and shallower and the forest > declines. That said I am still in favour of wood usage because ironically if we > did not maintain some economic interest in our second and third growth forests I > doubt they would be maintained as such - and canopy of any form is crucial at > this point. I also maintain its usage because despite technology we have not > escaped what the vernacular remains to teach us and we have no understanding of > the effect of new technological alternatives. That we will see beyond a few > generations of forest is doubtful. What is crucial is furthering our > understanding of the full cost of forest removal and making that cost part of > the economics of forest usage - perhaps that will further conservation and limit > our demands. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. > > > Well since plantation forestry (if forestry is defined as the art of > dismembering trees) has come up, let me note that this is also a dead end. > Typically, conifers are planted in monocrop: e.g. Monterey pine in most of > New Zealand, Sitka spruce in most of Ireland, longleaf pines in Southeastern > US plantations, douglas fir in the North American Northwest, etc. In Ireland, > they have figured that four generations of even-aged Sitka spruce effectively > "sterilize" the soil. It appears that conifers sequester mineral nutrients as > a competition measure against more shade toleration hardwoods that require > higher levels of soil fertility. (This is a personal opinion based on reading > analyses of wood ash and observing trees over decades.) In the Pacific > Northwest, where alder is routinely cut as a "weed," it was shown possibly 15 > years ago that the alder makes the conifers grow better through its nitrogen > fixing, something common sense would also indicate. I'm told alder is still > routinely cut as a weed. In the Southeast, where I live now, plantations > first established to grow timber for building are, in present generations of > trees, pulped for paper because they will never get big enough to bother > hauling to a saw mill (or bringing one into the forest, easily done with > smaller diamter stock.) Whole tree harvesting (meaning twigs, stumps and > roots too) is gaining in popularity. Nothing is left to feed the forest. > Wildlife disappears because an even age monocrop plantation has several years > when it produces NO wildlife food, other than surface browse which will be > curtailed if it includes the crop plants, and then only produces annually. I > like to eat more than once a year. Wildlife have similar proclivities. > > Meanwhile, air pollution (to simplify we can call it acid-rain complex) comes > down on the entire North Temperate forests. This is something I've been > intimately concerned with and I've viewed many thousands of miles of forests. > We can pretty much conclude that the temperate forests are with us only > temporarily. With the arctic/sub-arctic forests and tropical forests, both > hard to restore, being cut as quickly as possible, this leaves an interesting > situation. It is doubtful if the human species can persist without forests. > Certainly agriculture as such cannot, because forests are major regulators and > modifiers of climate. As they go climate swings increasingly out of control. > The other major (variable) factor in climate regulation is the oceans, which > of course are international dumping grounds for anything we don't want in our > back yards. As if the oceans weren't our back yards. But I'll stick to > forests. I can tell you that ANY biomass re remove from forests when they are > stressed already reduces their ability to support life. I have cut firewood > (in seeming paradox I have produced some of my income as a woodcutter at > various times) in the Quabbin Reservoir watershed of Massachusetts and seen > only 1 species, black birch which is a boreal species, coming in right after > glacial retreat, successfully reproducing. I could cut all day without > touching a live tree with my saw. In the Ithaca region of New York I walked a > farm that had three forestry management practices on contiguous land. One was > cut by the best forestry techinque of, say, 1930. The very best, straightest, > strongest trees were left for seed. They were dying, of course, because the > supporting canopy was removed from around them and the assault comes from > above. (This time. We've hammered at these forests for quite a while.) Next > to this, was land where selective cutting of crowded small trees, say 1-8 > inches in diameter was done. The selectively cut trees were removed for fuel > since this was near the farmhouse. This forest showed signs of decline but > the trees were way healthier than the standing ideal specimens in the > professionally timbered piece. The third area was selectively cut the same > way but being much higher and steeper the wood was left to rot. Despite a > considerable increase in elevation, which means a considerable increase in > exposure to toxic assault, these trees were healthy enough that only a trained > eye (or ring-core samples) could identify any decline. Generally, now, one > sees tall trees "pruned" back to the canopy. The effect is less around water > and here and there one finds patches of inexplicably healthy forests. (I've > photographed these as I believe most people have never seen a healthy tree.) > Alternatives to trees for paper are not merely ecologically sound, they are > obviously necessary if we are to have paper. This is why people who have been > talking about them for decades and decades are now being heard and that folks > like the Japanese are picking up on ideas like paper from banana plantations. > The day may not be far off when the paper is more profitable than the bananas. > > One of the merits of this greenbuilder list, to my mind is that it seeks to > reduce the load that shelter places on polluting energy sources and, > hopefully, on forest resources. I don't know what we do about wood. I'm in > an area that shows little damage as yet because it is a swamp--areas near > water hold up much longer than typical areas nearby. (I've got slides of this > too--thousands of slides, actually of the whole business.) I burn trees for > heat, bearing in mind that we do not have much heating load in Florida. The > line where heating load=cooling load runs through Jacksonville and we are an > hour or two south of that and, as I said, surrounded by moderating water > (which reduces both, of course). > > Regarding wood use, I figure we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. > Maybe I'm just a wood addict, but the basic materials of wood and glass are > the most dimensionally stable materials we have, or can be properly used, and > this property seems necessary to build tight structures that vent where we > want them to vent and don't elsewhere. Damnit, I'm a forest bear and I can't > stand not being around wood, dead and alive. (We moved here to live under > giant oaks of the live oak group draped with Spanish moss that glint golden > green when the breeze ripples them through columns of misted sunlight.) Given > our little high ground, we are cutting smaller non-food trees to replace with > fruit and nut crops, and this + hurricane windfalls (literal) will be more > fuel than I can imagine using. The organic matter of rotting WOULD still be a > better choice than ash for the soil, but then we would be using nuclear > generated electricty and fossil propane. Well I've got strategies that I hope > will add more organic matter than I remove and I'm supposed to know how to do > this. > > Forgive my rant. My role in life, in part, is to call attention to context. > This greenbuilding list is vitally important in leading the way to lighter > burdens on the planet, since it affects the affluent minority who use all but > a small fragment of the planet's resoruces. Adjustments in the way we live > are past due, and I see this group as providing some of the mechanisms that > might work. > > For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), > Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, > consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence > courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, > 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, > P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com > > We don't have time to rush. > > A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at > http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 7 18:07:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA01737 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:07:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA05769 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:06:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA18627; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:01:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:56:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA18047 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:56:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18030; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:56:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip182.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.182]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA09914; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:01:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980107230238.00687484@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 18:02:38 -0500 To: John Salmen , "greenbuilding@crest.org" , EE-Building From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Million solar roofs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1097 John - from what I understand the Million Solar Roof program has just last week been reviewing several larger projects - to be installed by PV-ESO's (PV Energy Service Organizations). These are Museums, Large Municipal Buildings, etc.. I do not know where they are at with the smaller other 99,000 - the coupled RFP from the Utility PV Group is due next week & there may be some small PV projects that get approval there. We were planning to make a response to UPVG & have a commitment for some 30 kW of residential PV on Long Island . With high electric rates + net metering + New York State tax credits - it would appear to be ideal, but our collaborative group has fallen apart in the last several weeks. The $1.75 per watt that UPVG is offering (minus the ~$0.75 per watt of required project metering) does not quite make it viable for a smaller group like ours. BUT - if there are others out there who would like to incorporate our commitments, please get in touch ASAP. By 'Direct metering', I assume you mean what we call 'net-metering', run-the-meter-backwards - yes it is available, but on a state by state basis. In NYS we have not yet seen the IOU's requirements for interconnection, although the hearsay is they probably will be as onerous as they were before the passing of the net-metering bill last fall. As to the Canadian connection - one of the tenents of these PV projects is to increase the domestic use of US companies involved in solar electric. The UPVG RFP specifically has an all US manufacture clause. best for the new year ---- -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 7 23:30:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA07205 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:30:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA07561 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:29:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA01496; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:24:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:19:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA00652 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:19:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA00630; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:19:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA13261; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:24:25 -0800 Message-ID: <34B453DC.4FDB6885@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 20:19:40 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frazer Dougherty CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , EE-Building Subject: Re: GBlist: Million solar roofs References: <1.5.4.32.19980107230238.00687484@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1098 Thanks Frazer for the information. What size of group were you looking at and what $/w was feasible and what portion of hardware would be underwritten by the program or utility (meaning homeowner costs)?. It would seem that the net metering application would in the long run reduce utility costs and that the residential infrastructure or maintenance costs should become a utility responsibility, especially if dependence inevitably develops on the residential contribution to the network. The funny Canadian connection in your case is that the origin of your existing power is probably Quebec. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Frazer Dougherty wrote: > John - from what I understand the Million Solar Roof program has just last > week been reviewing several larger projects - to be installed by PV-ESO's > (PV Energy Service Organizations). These are Museums, Large Municipal > Buildings, etc.. > > I do not know where they are at with the smaller other 99,000 - the coupled > RFP from the Utility PV Group is due next week & there may be some small PV > projects that get approval there. > > We were planning to make a response to UPVG & have a commitment for some 30 > kW of residential PV on Long Island . With high electric rates + net > metering + New York State tax credits - it would appear to be ideal, but our > collaborative group has fallen apart in the last several weeks. The $1.75 > per watt that UPVG is offering (minus the ~$0.75 per watt of required > project metering) does not quite make it viable for a smaller group like ours. > > BUT - if there are others out there who would like to incorporate our > commitments, please get in touch ASAP. > > By 'Direct metering', I assume you mean what we call 'net-metering', > run-the-meter-backwards - yes it is available, but on a state by state > basis. In NYS we have not yet seen the IOU's requirements for > interconnection, although the hearsay is they probably will be as onerous as > they were before the passing of the net-metering bill last fall. > > As to the Canadian connection - one of the tenents of these PV projects is > to increase the domestic use of US companies involved in solar electric. The > UPVG RFP specifically has an all US manufacture clause. > best for the new year ---- > -------------------------------------------------------- > Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com > North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) > website: http://www.home-performance.org > -------------------------------------------------------- > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 7 23:41:06 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA07387 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:41:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA10468 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:40:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02719; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:34:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:30:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02071 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:30:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02063 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:30:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.19] (mke-1-3.binc.net [208.142.229.19]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA22222; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:34:34 -0600 Message-Id: <199801080434.WAA22222@glacier.binc.net> Subject: GBlist: Fwd: Re: SIP Creep Date: Wed, 7 Jan 98 17:35:05 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "Patrick Pierquet" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1099 Subject: Re: SIP Creep Sent: 1/6/98 8:36 PM Received: 1/6/98 3:59 PM From: Frank Baker, Frank@rtfgli.clrs.com To: Rick Sasala, Rick@rtfgli.clrs.com 'Chris & Ruth Koehn', crkoehn@mailbag.com CC: 'Tom Shrock' , Tom@rtfgli.clrs.com Marty Birkenkamp, Marty@rtfgli.clrs.com Al Pfotenhauer, Al@rtfgli.clrs.com Patrick, Thought you would be interested in this reply to the " SIP creep" issue we corresponded on last month. Rick Sasala is Insulspan's resident P.E., and Frank Baker is the Pres. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I'm glad Insulspan's engineer designs with it in mind, and that design loads reflect creep. Best, Chris Koehn Rick Sasala >Chris, > >Frank and Tom forwarded your discussion with Patrick Pierquet on the issue >of creep in SIPs. I do not have time now to fully elaborate on this >issue. However, let me say a few words to help you out for now. > >Creep does occur in panels and there is test data measured at the >University of Pennsylvaniaon the extent and time frame overwhich it may >occur. Our standard load tables do not include creep as a limiting >mechanism. They only include short-term failure/serviceablity mechanisms >shear, bending, and deflection. Note however that there is a general note >in the fine print of the load tables that for long term loads that the >allowable loads should be reduced to account for creep deflection. > >There is a good reason for have the tables presented in this manner. >Namely, there are many situations in which creep is not a design >consideration. For example, in curtain walls on a timber frame which is >exposed to wind or sesmic loading or a roof snow load in a relatively >warm/low-snow-fall climate which the snow is not expected to remain on the >roof for extended time periods - such as we have in Toledo. It is the >designers responsibility to recognize when the design load will be in >effect for an extended period of time and to increase the panel capacity >to compensate for this creep. > >To answer the question of whether we design with this in mind, I would >reply yes, but it does not hurt to be reminded of this occasionally. If >you wish to discuss further feel free to contact me directly, preferably >via email. > >Rick Sasala I just wanted to add that almost all construction meterials creep at varying rates. It is not unique to panels but like solid wood it must be considered in long term loading conditions. The long term load tests done on Insulspan panels at Penn State confirmed that the panels perform as expected using the mathematical models typically used to predict creep behaviour. That is good news and now enables us to design confidently for long term load conditions. Frank Baker ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 8 08:49:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA13592 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:49:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA22884 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:48:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15520; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:43:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:39:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15178 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:39:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15172 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:39:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id IfR23749; Thu, 08 Jan 1998 08:44:08 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist:fruit/nut crops Message-ID: <19980108.073928.2807.1.strawboss94@juno.com> References: <18f57a2a.34b23791@aol.com> <34B3C478.F8408BFF@cow-net.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-19 From: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 08:44:08 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1100 Since we are also in Florida, interested in what kind on fruit and nut crops you plant. Only nuts producing here are pecan and minimul chill hours restrict fruit as well as freezes restricting citrus. xxnlight.) Given >> our little high ground, we are cutting smaller non-food trees to >replace with >> fruit and nut crops, and this + hurricane windfalls (literal) will >x >> For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture xynthia >Hemenway, >> P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com >> >> We don't have time to rush. >> >> A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at >> http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html >> >_x___________________________________________________________________ >Tx ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 8 10:25:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA16951 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:25:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA17702 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:24:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19398; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:19:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:13:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19099 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:13:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.170]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19095 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:13:36 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <73ec6c25.34b4edbd@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:16:11 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Million solar roofs Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1101 I am curious if anyone else things that maybe roofs aren't the best place for solar devices. Glazing gets dirty and someone needs to clean it or transmission drops rapidly. Do the folks who design these things do windows (on solar devices or other?) From the penchant to stick them in the most inaccessible place in the house, I'd guess not. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 8 10:38:15 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA17245 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:38:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21248 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:37:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20100; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:32:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:27:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19645 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:27:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19641 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:27:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA21441; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 07:32:48 -0800 Message-ID: <34B4F080.E1E7CCDC@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 07:28:00 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Permacltur CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Million solar roofs References: <73ec6c25.34b4edbd@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1102 Hi, If a building is oriented properly then a roof generally has a good solar aspect and angle. A roof needs cladding of some sort and this weatherproofing function is being incorporated in pv. A standard roof will produce excess power so efficiency might not be an issue and this is only a portion of roof coverage. The concept of net metering is one of the few ways that pv would be applicable in our area - we produce solar power at a point where local usage of electricity is lower (summer) but we do export power at that point for more southernly cooling loads. The problem with such a concept is who owns and maintains the roof as its function is as part of a utility producing power for a larger network. The only more relavent roof usage would be green roofing - both green roofing and pv roofing are mandated for usage in parts of Europe. We seem too intent on DAMaging watersheds here. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Permacltur wrote: > I am curious if anyone else things that maybe roofs aren't the best place for > solar devices. Glazing gets dirty and someone needs to clean it or > transmission drops rapidly. Do the folks who design these things do windows > (on solar devices or other?) From the penchant to stick them in the most > inaccessible place in the house, I'd guess not. > > For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), > Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, > consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence > courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, > 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, > P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com > > We don't have time to rush. > > A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at > http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 8 11:21:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA20003 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:21:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04707 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:20:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22373; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:11:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22053 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:10:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.172]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22048; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:10:50 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <7147d2e.34b4f800@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:59:59 EST To: strawboss94@JUNO.COM, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist:fruit/nut crops Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1103 Fruits include: Bananas (marginal but no frost damage yet) Surinam cherry (marginal, same) Papaya (marginal, same) Persimmon, Kaki and American Figs Citrus (some protection may be required in some years Limes are potted to move indoors at any hint of frost) Pears Peaches Avacado Feijoa (need more plants, esp. cultivars) Hawthorns (misc species for trials) Mayhaws -- we are looking to establish a few hundred of these as they suit our circumstances well. Blueberry--about8 plants, different varieties, obviously southern types Blackberries--both upright and spreading, for trials Boisenberry--ffor trials Raspberry--for trials, mostly now eliminated. (Heritage bombed out first.) Bababa berry--for trials. It should work here but we are on our second try. Indian jujube (we regular jujubes but they never came) Loquats We've started seedlings and hope to graft good varieties to them when they get larger. Pomegranite--one just for its ornamental value Actinidia arguta--local selections (I'm told). Black haw (Viburnum prunifolium) Paw Paw (Asimina triloba. We also.have indigenous Asimina growing wild and we leave it when we clear land. Squirrels get all the fruit.) Chayote Che Cherry of the Rio Grande A few passiflora spp including P incarnata which is wild in the pasture. Wildlife get all fruit before it ripens. The largest get to tennis ball size. Ginko (marginal at best--want mainly for medicinal purposes) Grape (many wild vines left when practical for poultry forage, and cuttings from vines my father is growing in Citrus county, Muscadine varieties forgotten) Strawberry Guava (we have one named plant and are starting more from seed, hopefully some for grafting. This is another species we want to have many specimens of as it also is very well adapted.) Hackberry (wild--considering a cultivated form for larger fruit) Edlberberry, wild. For insecticidal and herbal purposes. They are not well established on the site though are rampant nearby.) Mulberry. We have several, including some that may prove marginal (e.g. Illinois everbearing) and would like to try every variety that may do well in the SE USA (with good flavor of course). We have one (?) wild specimen, a red I think, which we are salvaging from smothering grape vines in a poultry forage area. If we like the fruit, we can propagate.) Of course we are swarming with wild Florida beauty berry which I leave for the chickens to eat as they roam about. They don't like a lot at once but like to nab one or two fruits as they wander by a bush. Partridge berry, wild or naturalized, serving as a good ground cover under the oaks. the chickens do not scratch it up and seem to encourage its spread. They seem to really like the rather bland fruit and one is never ripe for two consecutive days. Plum, American. Wild, unappealing fruit, mostly defoliated by caterpillars in spring so that they bear poorly. (We've only been here one year. If this is not an annual event, we may use the stems for cleft grafting better varieties.) White sapote. We have one from seed--someone sent us three seeds (!?!) and we only got one plant. I don't think it will bear fruit unless we get more seed to plant or some scion wood to graft for cross pollination.) NUTS Pecan. One stuart and seedlings planted from local trees Am. Chestnut hybrid, Dunstan. just too specimens on our best drained soil. OTHER; We have some seedling honey locust from named parents for trials in our pasture. Pidgeon peas (annual type) do very well if direct planted. They make a quick shelter for brambles, etc., from persistent summer winds. We are looking at juneberry, if we can find a source of locally adapted species. We want some of the palms with good fruits for this region but haven't got to that yet. Well, the list of what we don't have is at least as the list of what we do have. while not a fruit or nut, we are strongly interested in getting some tea camellia (C. sinensis I think) that takes a bit of heat. We are also looking for black locust and American basswood propagation materials from locally growing specimens, again not for fruit. Good bee plants but I want them mainly for the wood and as living fence posts (R. psuedoacia). There are tons of things we have interests in and a number of failures we 've had, mainly in growing stuff from seed. I am not sure that seed sources are always fresh. In addition we are working with bamboo, not a fruit, but surely and exotic woody plant with edible potential, as well as a great fiber plant. We have, I think, 8 species at the moment. I'm not interested in being a collector, just in growing those species that we can use and that are adapted. I'm curious if the many thousands of fruits we have on our sabal palms are of practical food value besides poultry forage if they hit the ground before wild birds and squirrels get them. We have been very disappointed with the service from the nurseries with the most interesting selections as even if we order very early we get back ordered and treated like we are trouble-makers when we ask when they will ship and, eventually, complain when the supplier misses his self-set deadline, repeatedly, for sending back ordered stuff. We've also had a small problem with substitutions. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 8 14:32:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA23418 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:32:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA03437 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:31:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03584; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:26:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:21:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03121 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:21:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from sheppard.torfree.net (root@sheppard.torfree.net [199.71.188.24]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA03117 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:21:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by sheppard.torfree.net (Smail-3.2.0.97 1997-Aug-19 #8; 1997-Dec-12) (683 bytes) via sendmail with /P:stdio/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp id (sender ) for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:26:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:26:28 -0500 (EST) From: Laura McGrath Subject: GBlist: wood stain/paint To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1104 A friend of mine is looking for a Canadian supplier of natural wood stain and paint. She specifically wants something that's not just safer, but no chemicals. (I heard some are now made with milk products). Any suggestions? BTW, she's only looking for a Canadian supplier so she can get it quicker. (To be specific, she's in Toronto). Thank You. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 8 14:56:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA23702 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA10688 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:55:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA04847; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:50:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:45:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA04503 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:45:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA04495 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:45:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA121862; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:48:36 -0700 Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:48:36 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Laura McGrath Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: wood stain/paint In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1105 Laura: We use "Lifetime" for many applications (including our front deck and backyard raised beds). It does not have toxic chemicals. It is water based, environmentally friendly and has been used for 50 years. The best thing is that it is sent out as a pellet in a small environmentally-sound sack,to which water is added on-site. Very clever. No freezing in shipping. If this is what you are looking for, talk to Oke Wictorim @ Valhalla Wood Preservatives, (403) 228-5193. _________________________________________________________ Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 8 15:17:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA24022 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:17:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA17367 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:16:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05952; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:11:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:07:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05487 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:07:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05471; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:07:10 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PoY14508; Thu, 08 Jan 1998 15:10:26 EST To: terrain@cow-net.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:14:00 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Million solar roofs Message-ID: <19980108.141957.3894.3.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <34B3C2A0.47FA8C4B@cow-net.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-6,8-16,19-20,23-31,33-48 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1106 I obtained the government's Million Solar Roofs Initiative (MSR) packet at the Green Builder Conference in Austin. Most of the material enclosed is empty rhetoric because is clearly contains no action items. The top ten questions concerning this program are: 1. What is the MSR? 2. Why are we undertaking this Initiative at this time? 3. What are the qualifications for a building to be a part of this Initiative? 4. Who is a MSR Partner? 5. What activities will partnerships undertake? 6. What assistance is available? 7. What is the Federal commitment? 8. What is PV? 9. What is Solar Thermal? 10. How much will solar energy cost? The packet also contains brochures on the MSR, solar, Energy Savers for the home, propaganda about utilities going solar (not in South Texas) and the DOE Renewable Energy Clearinghouse. The answers to the above questions and the info contained in the propaganda require far more typing than I care to do. You might consult their Website at: www.MillionSolarRoofs.org. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Wed, 07 Jan 1998 10:00:00 -0800 John Salmen writes: >Any Americans or Canadian snoopers have any background on this - web >site is woefully thin. Utilities involved? Direct metering >applications? >Any Canadian involvement? > >John Salmen >TERRAIN E.D.S. > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 8 15:56:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA25444 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:56:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA28851 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:55:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08433; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:50:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:46:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA08089 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:45:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA08084 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 15:45:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust247.tnt2.clearwater.fl.gt.uu.net [208.255.244.247]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id OAA05919 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:50:17 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34B53C7F.1DBF@gte.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 15:52:15 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-GTE (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: PV shingles Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1107 I've heard that Energy Conversion Devices, based in Troy, MI, plans to manufacture PV roofing shingles in Sarasota, FL. Does anybody on this list have a contact name or number where I could pursue this. Sarasota information was not helpful. Also, are you aware of any other companies planning to enter this market? Thanks, Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 8 17:30:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA27142 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:30:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA27388 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:29:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA12314; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:20:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA11994 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:20:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11990 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:20:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.185] (1Cust185.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.185]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA21842 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:25:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801082225.OAA21842@norway.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: PV shingles Date: Thu, 8 Jan 98 14:28:25 -0000 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1108 Cindy The REDI database lists two manufacturers and one distributor for "photovoltaic roofing". In the listing for United Solar you'll find an article that appeared in Energy Source Builder last year. Bruce >I've heard that Energy Conversion Devices, based in Troy, MI, plans to >manufacture PV >roofing shingles in Sarasota, FL. Does anybody on this list have a >contact name or >number where I could pursue this. Sarasota information was not helpful. >Also, are you >aware of any other companies planning to enter this market? > >Thanks, >Cindy Pollock Shea >Promoting Sustainable Development -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 8 19:56:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA29182 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA08295 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:55:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA17396; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:50:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:43:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA16974 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:43:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA16960; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:43:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA04971; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:48:01 -0800 Message-ID: <34B5729F.72B9416B@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 16:43:11 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sbtauto@juno.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Million solar roofs References: <34B3C2A0.47FA8C4B@cow-net.com> <19980108.141957.3894.3.sbtauto@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1109 Thanks Steve - I did look at the web site and as you gathered from the information packet there are some programmatic gaps in the program - question for me is what is the process for filling those gaps. I especially like the question in this context of 'what is PV' John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. sbtauto@juno.com wrote: > I obtained the government's Million Solar Roofs Initiative (MSR) packet > at the Green Builder Conference in Austin. Most of the material > enclosed is empty rhetoric because is clearly contains no action items. > > The top ten questions concerning this program are: > 1. What is the MSR? > 2. Why are we undertaking this Initiative at this time? > 3. What are the qualifications for a building to be a part of this > Initiative? > 4. Who is a MSR Partner? > 5. What activities will partnerships undertake? > 6. What assistance is available? > 7. What is the Federal commitment? > 8. What is PV? > 9. What is Solar Thermal? > 10. How much will solar energy cost? > > The packet also contains brochures on the MSR, solar, Energy Savers for > the home, propaganda about utilities going solar (not in South Texas) and > the DOE Renewable Energy Clearinghouse. > > The answers to the above questions and the info contained in the > propaganda require far more typing than I care to do. You might consult > their Website at: www.MillionSolarRoofs.org. > > Steve Shepard > SBT Automation > 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 > sbtauto@juno.com > http://www.lore.net/~sbt > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 8 20:06:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA29766 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:06:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA11118 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:05:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA17907; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:00:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:55:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA17574 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:55:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA17570 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:55:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA05238; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:00:25 -0800 Message-ID: <34B57585.F041CEC8@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 16:55:33 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cindy/Mike Shea CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: PV shingles References: <34B53C7F.1DBF@gte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1110 Reference for one company http://ovonic.com/roofapps.html John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Cindy/Mike Shea wrote: > I've heard that Energy Conversion Devices, based in Troy, MI, plans to manufacture PV > roofing shingles in Sarasota, FL. Does anybody on this list have a contact name or > number where I could pursue this. Sarasota information was not helpful. Also, are you > aware of any other companies planning to enter this market? > > Thanks, > Cindy Pollock Shea > Promoting Sustainable Development > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 8 20:18:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA29913 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:18:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA13622 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:17:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18675; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:11:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:06:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA18186 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:06:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18177 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:06:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA05544; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:11:30 -0800 Message-ID: <34B5781F.8AF89B87@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 17:06:39 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cindy/Mike Shea , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: PV shingles References: <34B53C7F.1DBF@gte.net> <34B57585.F041CEC8@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1111 I should have posted this link http://ovonic.com/roof.html Uni-Solar is Energy Conversion Devices and Canon Corporate Office: 1100 West Maple Road, Troy, MI 48084 Phone: (248)362-4170 Fax: (248)362-4442 E-mail: > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S. > > Cindy/Mike Shea wrote: > > > I've heard that Energy Conversion Devices, based in Troy, MI, plans to manufacture PV > > roofing shingles in Sarasota, FL. Does anybody on this list have a contact name or > > number where I could pursue this. Sarasota information was not helpful. Also, are you > > aware of any other companies planning to enter this market? > > > > Thanks, > > Cindy Pollock Shea > > Promoting Sustainable Development > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 8 22:26:21 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA01245 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:26:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA13615 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:25:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA23075; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:20:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:16:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA22791 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:15:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.170]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA22787 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:15:55 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <4f15fd18.34b59669@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:15:52 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re Insurance Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1112 Greenbuilders, For those of you interested in the insurance discussion, Hemispheres Magazine Autumn 97 issue was focussed on natural disasters, insurance type concerns, climate change and green building solutions. A surprising find browsing a bookstore on vacation. Also, last years Northeast Sustainable Energy Association annual conference was a joint conference for green building professionals and the insurance industry. I was quite sceptical while we were organizing it, but it turned out to be a huge success. (I eat crow again) We had almost 1,000 professionals from both industries spend three days mingling ideas and mind sets. Proceedings and other results are available by contacting NESEA, which is a great organization to join if you are not yet a member. Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 8 23:04:45 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA01562 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:04:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA24216 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:03:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24340; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:58:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:53:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA24026 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:53:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24019 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:52:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA08690; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:58:10 -0800 Message-ID: <34B59F2D.6D7A8125@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 19:53:18 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: F Unger CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: re Insurance References: <4f15fd18.34b59669@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1113 A large chunk of Canada is now in the midst of a 'natural' disaster - which could easily be related to climate change. As the situation resolves there will be an incredible fallback on insurance to renew the status quo. Much of the claims will be related to houses freezing over, water damage, tree loss and damage. etc... We had a similar situation in B.C. last year with record snowfalls (a lot of collapsed roofs, outbuildings, etc.) there was some significant changes in load specifications as a result and the engineers that I work with became significantly less casual in their review of my designs and the resultant tendency now is for oversizing of structural components. Greenbuilding solutions in Ontario and Quebec at this point would seem to relate to the ability of a building to retain heat - is it true that the Ontario code was to return to a R12? The question though has probably less to do with R value beyond R12 than mass. Orientation and siting would also become significant issues in green solution finding. Its interesting to review ancient city plans as they experienced fuel shortages and became 'sustainably' dependent upon solar gain. Will the insurance industry become the motivating force for yet another attempt at a green revolution? (will I ever win a lottery without buying a ticket) I'm sure weirder things have happened or is it that the insurance industry from years of statistical gathering have evolved into something that actually can interpet some significance from all that information. I'm afraid I'm too cynical for those kinds of dreams or any kind of dream that could link the environment and commerce. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. F Unger wrote: > Greenbuilders, > > For those of you interested in the insurance discussion, Hemispheres Magazine > Autumn 97 issue was focussed on natural disasters, insurance type concerns, > climate change and green building solutions. A surprising find browsing a > bookstore on vacation. > > Also, last years Northeast Sustainable Energy Association annual conference > was a joint conference for green building professionals and the insurance > industry. I was quite sceptical while we were organizing it, but it turned out > to be a huge success. (I eat crow again) We had almost 1,000 professionals > from both industries spend three days mingling ideas and mind sets. > Proceedings and other results are available by contacting NESEA, which is a > great organization to join if you are not yet a member. > > Fred Unger > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 8 23:44:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA01931 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:44:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA04423 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:43:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA25429; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:38:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:34:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25174 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:34:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from UPIMSSMTPSYS03 (upimssmtpsys03.email.msn.com [207.68.152.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25165; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:34:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR03 - 207.68.143.159 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:38:50 -0800 Received: from GFX-CH - 153.35.27.36 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:38:48 -0800 From: "carmine vasile" To: "Bion D. Howard" , , Cc: "Eric Olsen" , "Frans Plugge" , "Warren Hodgdon" , "Kevin McAuley" , "Ken Ladd" , "Jim Carney" , "Jim Vaughn" Subject: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: Energy Efficiency: Key to Sustainable Energy Use? (CRS) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 23:40:35 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <00cac4838040918UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1114 Hello Bion: Your message was thought provoking, indeed; especially the startling statistics under "Oil Import Dependence" @ http://www.cnie.org/nle/eng-33.html [See excerpts at the end of this message for convenience]. ***************** > According to that report, $60 Billion of our nation's trade deficit > is for importing oil @ $20/barrel. ***************** > "According to DOE's Energy Information Administration (EIA), > electric water heaters provided 45% of US residential water > heating needs in 1995. The EIA estimates that in 1995 > residential water heaters in the US consumed 740 TWh of > energy and commercial water heaters consumed 320 TWh. > Approximately 80-90% of all hot water energy goes down the > drain, carrying with it up to 955 TWh of energy in the US alone." [Quote from: http://www.caddet-ee.org/newsdesk/nw497_05.htm ] ***************** > This EIA estimate of 955 billion kWh going down US drains > means up to 25% of that $60 billion trade deficit is carried by > wastewater --- assuming a water-heating value of 22.6 kWh > per gallon of oil @ 55% average conversion efficiency. ***************** The advent of wheeling electricity not only makes wastewater heat energy a National Renewable Energy Reserve, it makes mandatory wastewater heat recycling a viable way to cut our dependence upon imported oil. For some added "thought" provocation: Greenhouse gas emissions from burning 42 billion gallons of oil is about 945 billion pounds of CO2 & 33 billion pounds of NOx. ===================================================== Dr. Carmine Vasile, CEO Voice: 516-758-6271 WaterFilm Energy Inc. Fax: 516-758-0438 P.O. Box 48 Email: gfx-ch@msn.com Oakdale, NY 11769 ===================================================== ******************************************************* ..."The United States accounts for 25% of world oil use, and two-thirds of national oil use occurs in the transportation sector. Net oil imports supplied 50% of national oil use in 1996, and EIA projects that present trends would cause imports to rise to 59% of national use by 2000. In 1996, net oil imports accounted for $60 billion or 36% of the nation's $167 billion trade deficit. In real dollar terms, this is the highest cost of imports since 1990. DOE's Energy Information Administration (EIA) projects that net imports will increase by 5% annually through 1998"... & ..."The Conservation Trends report estimates oil savings of 5 Q or 2.5 million barrels per day (mb/d) in the transportation sector, derived from improvements to highway vehicles and aircraft. Assuming that these savings help avoid oil imports at an average price of $20 per barrel, energy efficiency measures cut 1996 oil imports by about $18 billion, which is about 30% of the cost of net oil imports or nearly 11% of the trade deficit."... & ..."A 1995 report by the Oak Ridge National Laboratory, The Outlook for U.S. Oil Dependence, finds that the United States remains vulnerable to an oil price shock. The report identifies four key conditions that create this vulnerability. First, the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries' (OPEC's) share of the world oil market is growing steadily, and it is expected to reach between 2000 and 2005 the same level that existed prior to the OPEC oil embargo of 1973, that preceded the first oil price shock. Second, oil's cost-share of national GDP, the key determinant of the impact an oil price shock would have on the national economy, is about the same as it was before the first oil price shock in 1973. Third, while other sectors have substituted alternative forms of energy for oil, the high concentration of oil use in the transportation sector indicates that oil demand elasticity has not increased. Fourth, the strategic petroleum reserve could only delay, but not avoid, a sustained multi-year supply curtailment by OPEC."... -----Original Message----- From: Bion D. Howard To: ee-building@crest.org ; greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 1:50 PM Subject: EEBA-L: Energy Efficiency: Key to Sustainable Energy Use? (CRS) > >I recently came across a web page developed on the topic of energy >efficiency and sustainable development policy. > > Location -- > >Hope you find it thought provoking, as I did. Congress at work. >-------------- > > "Energy Efficiency: Key to Sustainable Energy Use?" > >CONTENTS >SUMMARY >MOST RECENT DEVELOPMENTS >BACKGROUND AND ANALYSIS > Energy Efficiency Concept > History > DOE Management > Mission and Strategic Plan > FY1998 Performance Goals and Measures > Evaluating Energy Efficiency Program Impacts > FY1998 DOE Budget Request: Key Changes > FY1998 EPA Budget Request: Key Changes > Climate Change > Oil Import Dependence > ISTEA Reauthorization > Electric Industry Restructuring > >LEGISLATION >CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS, REPORTS, AND DOCUMENTS >FOR ADDITIONAL READING > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Contact: Bion Howard, Principal > Building Environmental Science & Technology > > Web: >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Energy Efficient Building list: sponsored >by the Energy Efficient Building Association (EEBA), a >non-profit educational organization >with the assistance of CREST and >Howard Associates # # # >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 9 03:53:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA04442 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 03:53:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA22355 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 03:52:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA01608; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 03:47:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 9 Jan 1998 03:43:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA01131 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 03:42:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.agoranet.be (mail.agoranet.be [194.119.249.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA01119; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 03:42:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from wim.agoranet.be (gent05.agoranet.be [194.119.250.69]) by mail.agoranet.be (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA10057; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:55:08 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980109084653.006c52e4@mail.agoranet.be> X-Sender: wimdg@mail.agoranet.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 09:46:53 +0100 To: bdhoward@ix.netcom.com From: Wim De Groote Subject: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: Million Solar Roofs : sex appeal of PV Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1115 At 16:32 8/01/98 -0500, you wrote: > >My fear is that PV systems will be rolled out that are fitted to buildings >and to loads where the fundamental principal -- maximizing system energy >efficiency first -- falls from priority. If that happens, watch out for >another industry killing wave of failures, high cost and bad publicity like >the one that has hamstrung the consumer acceptance of solar since 1985. > Right to the point, Mr Howard ! In fact, also commenting on John Salmen's comments, the fundamental issue at stake is AFFORDABILITY. If your house is designed such as ours (and many others in Europe), and only needs 1.000 kWh electricity per year to provide all services an average family has, a PV-system of 600 Watt will be enough to provide 50 % of your power consumption. The price of your own power plant of this seize : currently less than 4.300 $ (roof-mounted), going down in the near future to let's hope 3.500 $. However, if you miss the opportunity to design a house as a Factor-4 house, and you still want PV on top of it, you end up with either an insignificant contribution of your PV-system to your energy use, or with a PV-installation of 15.000 $ or more which is not affordable for most people. The problem with the large public and their designers is that they still believe that the first question is "Which kind of energy should we use ?" and not "How much energy do we need ?" When I help clients to design their building energy-wise, they ALWAYS start asking about solar technology. It is clear that a solar hot water panel or a PV-system has more sex appeal than a well-insulated wall. What I try do with clients (and in our own house) is paying a large part of the costs of the solar installations with the first capital savings of a downseized (4 x) heating system. Willem De Groote E STER, Gent, Belgium >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Energy Efficient Building list: sponsored >by the Energy Efficient Building Association (EEBA), a >non-profit educational organization >with the assistance of CREST and >Howard Associates # # # >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 9 08:53:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06556 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA14768 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:52:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06967; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:47:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:43:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA06721 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:43:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.169]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06717 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:43:25 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <869ced07.34b629ce@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 08:44:45 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: insurance discussion evolving Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1116 John Salmen, TERRAIN E.D.S. writes: "I'm afraid I'm too cynical for those kinds of dreams or any kind of dream that could link the environment and commerce." John, If we can't get beyond the paradigm that commerce and sustainability are incompatible, we will never solve our problems either ecological or economic. The fundamental realties that impact the day to day little decisions we all make are economic. Our environmental problems are the net results of trillions of those seemingly insignificant economic micro choices made by individuals impacting on a planetary scale. Every one of us on this list makes choices that are less than ideal from an environmental perspective every single day. Being one of six billion people alive today is an ecological compromise, but I'm not quite ready to call Dr. Kevorkian in the name of saving the planet. The incredible environmental mess we discovered when the communist myth collapsed and the iron curtain was lifted shows quite clearly the environmental impact of having individual choices replaced by bureaucratic proscriptions. The economic results of that failed experiment are even clearer. Reading the end of the year issues of both The Economist and Sierra magazine last month make it pretty clear that everyone seems pretty intent on preaching to the choir and closing their minds to any possibility of validity of views outside their existing obstinate sclerosis of the brain. The message that John Abrams forwarded to us about Stewart Brand's glee in realizing how stupid his proponence of geodesic domes was, despite Stewarts phenomenal brilliance as well as that of Bucky Fuller, should give us all some thoughts about examining the areas in which our own neural pathways may be dangerously hardened. Terry Brennan's suggestion that we "Think Globally and Act Loco" was the single most important thought yet suggested on this list. What is a loco thought to an environmentalist or an economist? The possibility that each other might be right. The most inspiring thing I read over the holidays was a Washington Post magazine biography of General George Lee Butler. He was the commanding officer of the Strategic Air Command, the guy who actually had to push the button for nuclear holocaust. He was schooled in the catechism of the cold war, communist expansionism and mutually assured destruction, where Dr. Strangelove seems rational and prudent. He became the high priest of that reality, entrusted with the key to that horrible kingdom. After almost having to push the magic button due to the failure of a tiny computer chip during the Carter administration, General Butler began to examine his reality. After visiting the Soviet Union during Gorbechev's glastnost, he realized that the myth of soviet communism was in reality a backward third world economy on the brink of failure, but dangerously armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons. General Butler began to see quite clearly that nuclear weapons are the problem rather than the solution. Today he is the most effective advocate for their total elimination in the world. Time and again brilliant people are proving to us that it is possible to open our minds to new possibilities. Donella Meadows brilliant article in the recent issue of Whole Earth magazine convincingly argues that this is the most likely way to effect positive change. (thanks for the recommendation listers) John, the solutions we all seek are to be found by intimately linking the environment and commerce. The sooner we of the environmental movement embrace this reality, the sooner we can leave the theater of confrontational argument and enter some meaningful dialog toward solutions. Perhaps not so humbly yours, Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 9 14:35:06 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA11822 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:35:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA21241 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:34:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21692; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:28:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:24:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA21401 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:24:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21395 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:24:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id NAA0000031193; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:28:48 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980109193028.006ac024@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 13:30:28 -0600 To: F Unger From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Re: Think globally, act loco Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1117 For those of you who may not have seen it, please read Fred Unger's just-posted well- written, thoughtful essay on the need to develop the right attitude to effect change.. The real world clearly dictates a connection between commerce and the environment. With the exception of very few, the majority in the western world make decisions primarily with economic considerations in mind. Unfortunately it sometimes takes disasters to bring evironmentally good solutions to the fore. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 9 23:50:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA28548 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:50:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA15695 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:49:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08116; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:44:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:39:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA07858 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA07854 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:38:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mnsinc.com (a0137.culpeper.mns.net [206.239.106.137]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA12168 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:44:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34B726C9.12B707F8@mnsinc.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 23:44:10 -0800 From: khassan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: heat load Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1118 I am not sure if I read it here or not but I need info for my heating contractor to consider when calculating my heating requirements. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 10 00:09:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA29488 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:09:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA22145 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:08:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08827; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:03:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:58:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08388 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:58:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08383; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:57:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA103022; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:01:13 -0700 Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:01:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: uwe Cc: Raquel Krach and Greg Massa , strawbale , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Re: (Solar) clothes dryers In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1119 Uwe: Further to your recent description of the German clothes drying closet, I will describe how we dry our clothes with existing technology and without requiring more specialized areas. In the summer time we pitch our square retractable clothes line on the prow of our backyard deck (recycled plastic lumber). It is positioned to catch maximum sunlight. An old fashioned idea in a modern context. A bit of life and colour for a quiet backyard. In the winter, we hang our clothes in several locations, depending on size. We do not have a North American washroom. Upstairs in our livabe attic, the wash- room is divided into 3 compartments that can accommodate 4 people simultaneously. There is an HRV exhaust in the bathtub room and in the toilet (waterless of course) compartment. We can close the doors if we wish. This is where we dry most of our clothes, - on reused towel racks. If that is not enough, we have a clothes line streched between 2 tree trunk posts (deadfall not live trees) at either end of our upper hallway railing overlooking the stairs (ballustrade made of thrown-away alder and poplar branches) just outside of the upper washroom area. Above, 2 SunPipes provide free full spectrum light during the day. That way we can see the true rendition of colour and the cleanliness of our clothes. Nature Clean soap and the Tri Clean disc are what we use. Although these spaces are located inside the house, the SunPipes and reused interior windows into the tub (old short but deep cast iron tub rather than higher-embodied energy shallow modern tub) provide all the natural light needed in each area. You can see the outdoors sunshine or rainfall while lying in the bathtub. Plants are to be found everywhere, even on the 2 reused sinks. And of course our washing machine was chosen to be handicapped accessible, space saving, water conserving and energy efficient (combination unit). And the "J" trap, have you seen one like this before? Clear plastic with little clips that are opened when the strainer gets plugged. Easy to clean. Just a little vignette from trying to live a conserver lifestyle in a sustainable home. No grandiose theory in a virtual world of make-believe, just everyday living in full technicolour and quadraphonic sound with all the joys in pains of real life, as best we can. No doubt, many improvements still to come. Nothing new under the sun. Now I will get back to things that matter more, enjoying the Tempast fireplace with Helen before going to sleep. It is going to be -35 dC tonight. _________________________________________________________ Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 10 09:36:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06807 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:36:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA20810 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17995; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:30:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:25:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA17476 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:24:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from transfer.usit.net (root@transfer.usit.net [208.10.171.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17468 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:24:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (DIALUP238.TNKNO.USIT.NET [205.241.221.240]) by transfer.usit.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA05702 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:29:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:29:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801101429.JAA05702@transfer.usit.net> X-Sender: bfloyd@pop.usit.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: GreenBuilding Listserver From: betsy hooper & buddy floyd Subject: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1120 It seems to me that in order to effect change we need to intervene as far up the economic "food chain" as possible. In my case, I live in an area where suburban sprawl is eating up the landscape at a pehnomenal rate. While I have no illusions of this phenomenon slowing down short of an economic disaster, my thought is that I could enter the arena as a "Green" developer. I am an architect, but have no experience in the real estate arena. Still, it seems to me that there are enough concerned people out there without the time or inclination to build their own "green" homes, that this could some how be a useful service. Anyone out there with experience in this arena? Pitfalls to watch out for? Resources available? Betsy Hooper bfloyd@usit.net Knoxville, Tennessee ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 10 09:36:47 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06812 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:36:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA20841 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18017; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:30:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:26:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA17482 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:24:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from transfer.usit.net (root@transfer.usit.net [208.10.171.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17469 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:24:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (DIALUP238.TNKNO.USIT.NET [205.241.221.240]) by transfer.usit.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA05699; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:29:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:29:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801101429.JAA05699@transfer.usit.net> X-Sender: bfloyd@pop.usit.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: betsy hooper & buddy floyd Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: (Solar) clothes dryers Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1121 At 10:01 PM 1/9/98 -0700, you wrote: >Uwe: Further to your recent description of the German clothes drying >closet, I will describe how we dry our clothes with existing technology >and without requiring more specialized areas. > >In the summer time we pitch our square retractable clothes line on the prow of >our backyard deck (recycled plastic lumber). It is positioned to catch maximum >sunlight. An old fashioned idea in a modern context. A bit of life and colour >for a quiet backyard. > >etc. It is a disturbing thought, that in many neighborhoods in this country (the U.S.), outdoor clotheslines are prohibited for esthetic reasons. We have a very long way to go. Betsy Hooper ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 10 11:51:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08380 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:51:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA19341 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:50:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21342; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:45:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:41:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21068 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:40:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from sparticus.eurekanet.com (root@sparticus.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21059 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:40:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (port-02-16.athens.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.146]) by sparticus.eurekanet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA22518; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:25:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801102325.SAA22518@sparticus.eurekanet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Catherine M. Muller" Organization: National Center for Appropriate Technology To: khassan Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:53:31 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: heat load Reply-to: cmuller@ncat.org CC: greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <34B726C9.12B707F8@mnsinc.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1122 Hi, There are a number of things to ask your contractor to consider when installing a new heating system. First, the contractor should do a room by room heat load calculation, using a tool such as ACCA's (Air Conditioning Contractor's Assc.) Manual J, or a computerized program such as Wright J. Some equipment manufacturers have their own proprietary versions to do these calculations. In doing a heat load calc., the contractor should measure your home component by component, differentiating by insulation level and component type, e.g. number of square feet of attic with no insulation, attic with R-19, walls, single pane windows, double pane windows, doors etc. The contractor or the program calculates the amount of energy lost through each of these components at "design" condition - not the most extreme outdoor temperatures you will ever experience, but a temperature at which the outdoors is warmer 97 1/2% of the time. The wild card is figuring the infiltration of the house. Because heat is not only lost through the solid components of the house, but also by air moving through holes in the house, it is important to come up with a figure to approximate the heating capacity needed to satisfy this load. Unfortunately, most contractors don't have any method for measuring this, such as a blower door, so they just come up with a "it looks leaky, medium or tight" guesstimate. When I recently did a Manual J for my sister's house, I wasn't able to get there to do a blower door test (she gave me the measurements by phone). So I did a sensitivity analysis using three numbers approximating really leaky, okay and very tight, just to see how much affect varying the infiltration would have on the total load. It turned out in this case that the variation in the needed furnace capacity didn't matter much - they all fell within the same bracket of available furnace sizes. Once all of these calculations are performed, the heating loads will be added together to calculate the amount of heat your furnace needs to be able to output at this design temperature. Note that this is *output*. For figuring input, your contractor must account for the efficiency of your new heating unit. An 80% efficient furnace will require more input than a 95%, in order to supply the same output. Be wary of the contractor recommending an oversized unit - keep the size close to what is calculated. You lose efficiency as the unit is progressively more oversized. On the coldest night of the year, the furnace should be running continuously. It is the same as the concept that you get better gas mileage on the highway than in stop-and-go city traffic. There are safety factors designed into these sizing calculations, so the contractor doesn't need to also add in a huge "cush" factor, as they frequently do. When deciding what type of furnace to buy you may want to consider a couple of things. First the supply air temperature of newer, more efficient units may be lower than you are used to. It will be sufficient to heat your home, but may not provide that blast of warm air you are used to. Heat pumps are notorious for having cool supply air, but 90+ units also have low temperature air. But higher efficiency units have a number of advantages beyond burning fuel more efficiently. Many are sealed combustion, that is, they draw their combustion air from the outdoors, as well as exhausting combustion products outside. This eliminates pressures within the house from the combustion process. Because these units are sealed and fan powered, it also greatly reduces the possibility of combustion by-products, such as CO, from entering the house. If you are planning on using radiant heat, the contractor should size the amount of radiation per room based on these room by room calculations, and size the boiler to satisfy this radiant load. If you are also getting air conditioning, they should do a heat gain calculation, which calculates heat added to the house to guide the sizing of the air conditioner. It is even more important with air conditioning that the unit is sized correctly. There are two components to cooling - dealing with latent heat and sensible heat. Sensible heat is what we normally measure with a thermometer. Latent heat deals with humidity. If an AC unit is oversized, it may go off as the sensible heat load is dealt with, without dehumidifying the air sufficiently. This results in a cold, clammy feeling. Often people compensate by further turning down the thermostat, leading the short cycles of cold bursts of air, and continued clamminess. It is also important for the contractor to size the ducts appropriately, using Manual D, or a similar product. This ensures that the proper amount of heat or cooling is delivered to each room (assuming that the duct system is sealed and no air escapes between the air handler and the rooms!). This is why the contractor should do a room by room calculation, not just a whole house calculation. Once again, it is more noticeable with AC if this isn't done. On a related note, it is good to do energy upgrades to your home, such as adding insulation, prior to getting a new furnace, if possible. By increasing the efficiency of your home you will make it more comfortable, your bills will be lower and it may possibly allow the installation of a smaller heating unit. Hope this helps and wasn't too long. I wasn't planning on such a dissertation, but got a bit carried away. Good luck. CM > Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 23:44:10 -0800 > From: khassan > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: heat load > I am not sure if I read it here or not but I need info for my heating > contractor to consider when calculating my heating requirements. Any > suggestions will be greatly appreciated. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > Catherine M. Muller Project Coordinator, Multi-family Services National Center for Appropriate Technology 16 Spring Street, Glouster, Ohio 45732 cmuller@ncat.org 614/767-9000 (phone); 614/767-9033 (fax) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 10 12:22:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08971 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:22:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA27399 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:21:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22350; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:16:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:12:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22023 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:11:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.169]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22019 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:11:16 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO Message-ID: <5fe06cf5.34b7ac5d@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 12:14:04 EST To: khassan@mnsinc.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Heat Loss Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1123 I think I'll keep Catherine's answer for the next time anyone asks me how to calculate heat loss. It falls in the category of "definitive answer". I believe the HVAC manufacturer Heil has a nice hand calculation sheet, in case a computer program is not available to do the Manual J calculation. I have some left over from a few years back. Give me a holler if you'd like one. If you want to get a free computer program for heat loss calculations, ask your heating contractor to ask their Wirsbo distributor for a copy of Radiant Express. This is a nice program for sizing radiant heating systems, and it happens to come with a built-in heat loss calculation program, even if you're not doing radiant heating. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 10 13:12:45 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11476 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:12:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA09619 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:11:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23891; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:02:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23578 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:01:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23567 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:01:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22948; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:07:35 GMT (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:06:18 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: economics and environment To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: FUnger@aol.com X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199801100700.CAA12165@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1124 On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 F Unger wrote > John Salmen, TERRAIN E.D.S. writes: > "I'm afraid I'm too cynical for those kinds of dreams or any kind > of dream that could link the environment and commerce." > > John, > If we can't get beyond the paradigm that commerce and sustainability are > incompatible, we will never solve our problems either ecological or economic. Thanks for the excellent post Mr Unger. I have never understood the supposed dichotomy of environmental good and economics. Market economics is all about ensuring the distribution of limited resources for the best total outcome. The "failings" (and probably its strength) of the present system is that there are many mechanisms that distort the workings of this mechanism. These distortions are largely a reflection of society's value system. If people can be made to value fresh, clean air and a thriving ecosystem instead of diamonds and gold, the price of the later would plummet to industrial levels, and human and capital resources would be employed to preserve the former. The proper pricing of pollution (e.g., CO2 and PCB, etc.) would also dramatically change things. The effects of global warming on weather does concern the insurance industry, not because they love the planet (that is their human role) but because they stand to lose money. This is an example of the old value system being helpful to the environment. Despite the good that can come out of this, we need to change the value systems and the existing economic system can, if allowed, work to ensure minimum environmental damage /max env good with the resources we have to work with (land, labour, capital, orginization, techology) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 10 14:00:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12584 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:00:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA20524 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:59:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25459; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:54:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:49:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24999 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:48:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24991 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:48:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA25768; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:53:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:53:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from asy3.vineyard.net(199.232.92.43) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma025749; Sat Jan 10 13:53:02 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: FUnger@aol.com From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Environment and Commerce Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1125 Dear Fred, Thanks for your thoughtful post. Reminds me of a Herman Daly article a few years ago in Scientific American about NAFTA and GATT. Said Daly, " Discussions of world trade rarely consider the huge energy and pollution costs of transporting stuff from place to place. Fully 50% of international trade is the simultaneous exchange of the same goods. Danes ship sugar cookies to America. Americans ship sugar cookies to Denmark. Why can't they just exchange recipes?" Environment and commerce laced with common sense. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 10 14:34:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13505 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:34:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA29305 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26728; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:28:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:23:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26310 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:22:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26304 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:22:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from 3dfx.ampsc.com (3dfx.ampsc.com [207.102.161.150]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA11153; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:27:38 -0800 Message-ID: <34B7CAF5.AF8@ampsc.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:24:37 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: betsy hooper & buddy floyd CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment References: <199801101429.JAA05702@transfer.usit.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1126 betsy hooper & buddy floyd wrote: > > It seems to me that in order to effect change we need to intervene as far up > the economic "food chain" as possible. In my case, I live in an area where > suburban sprawl is eating up the landscape at a pehnomenal rate. While I > have no illusions of this phenomenon slowing down short of an economic > disaster, my thought is that I could enter the arena as a "Green" developer. > I am an architect, but have no experience in the real estate arena. Still, > it seems to me that there are enough concerned people out there without the > time or inclination to build their own "green" homes, that this could some > how be a useful service. > > Anyone out there with experience in this arena? Pitfalls to watch out for? > Resources available? > > Betsy Hooper > bfloyd@usit.net > Knoxville, Tennessee > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ I have watched the progressions of development trends over the last 30 years, as well as being principally involved as a construction general contractor and land developer. I have the following to offer; The solution to everyone's problems concerning the disappearances of 'green spaces' will be found by increasing the minimum sizes for lots, acreages,and all of the land subdivision classifications, to a minium of acreages in rural landscapes, and amalgamation of smaller lots in urban landscapes, It has been shown repeatedly that human occupancy, similar to animal occupancy, requires a certain amount of 'green space' to maintain a healthy occupancy, so make the minium sizes of land for occupancy large enough so that human occupancy can persist. There is also a need to increase the minimum sizes of all living units, houses, apartments, condominiums, etc., and the components of the units, ie. bedrooms must be 12' x 12' not 8' x 8',....... the trend of cramming 1 and 2 people into 400 sq. ft. units has to end, the trend of cramming 1000 people into an acre of city land has to end, etc. The population must be spread out over the landscapes, not stacked and crammed into concentrated areas, as our cities, muncipalities, etc. have become already. This will also increase the awareness of the population of the importance and beauty of the landscape resources, and serve as a constant reminding environment of that which is vital to the continuing safe and healthy occupancy of that land resource of ours. two cents. Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 10 14:58:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13768 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:58:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA05091 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:57:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27549; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:52:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:47:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27259 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:46:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.165]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27255 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:46:40 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:46:23 EST To: jabrams@vineyard.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Environment and Commerce Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1127 In a message dated 1/10/98 2:01:01 PM, John wrote: << Dear Fred, Thanks for your thoughtful post. Reminds me of a Herman Daly article a few years ago in Scientific American about NAFTA and GATT. Said Daly, " Discussions of world trade rarely consider the huge energy and pollution costs of transporting stuff from place to place. Fully 50% of international trade is the simultaneous exchange of the same goods. Danes ship sugar cookies to America. Americans ship sugar cookies to Denmark. Why can't they just exchange recipes?" Environment and commerce laced with common sense. John >> Hi folks, I have found a great deal of help understanding economics, ecology and fear by reading economists. I'm a member of the INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR ECOLOGICAL ECONOMICS (http://csf.colorado.edu/isee/). There's lot's of information, energy and conflict at the site. The MAI currently being negotiated has been quite hot for awhile. There is a real good article from Nature on the value of services provided by ecosystems that ties in with our thread about insurance posted on the site now. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 10 15:05:00 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13856 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:05:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA06957 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:03:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27843; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:58:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:54:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27594 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:53:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.165]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27587 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:53:24 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501 Message-ID: <5e429221.34b7d111@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:50:41 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: FTC suit against Alpine Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1128 got this and thought I'd forward it. - Terry On January 5, 1998, the Federal Trade Commission filed suit against Alpine Industries, probably the largest manufacturer of those ozone generators sold as indoor air purifiers. The texts of the press release and complaint are attached; or they can be more easily read off the internet. The press release can be found at, http://www.FTC.GOV/opa/9801/alpine-2.htm and the full complaint at, http://www.FTC.GOV/os/9801/complt12.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 10 15:39:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14750 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:39:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15784 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:38:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28971; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:33:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:28:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28668 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:27:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28663 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:27:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PYL21894; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:32:38 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: block/roof tile machine Message-ID: <19980110.142815.2823.3.strawboss94@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4 From: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:32:38 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1129 Somewhere out there is plans for a low tech method of making earth blocks and roofing tile from clay. I have run down all the sources I have and would appreciate any steering you could provide. This list has been exceptionally good about helping out with calls for help. An entire education can be had from this list. Thanks in advance. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 10 16:10:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA15224 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:10:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA22933 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:09:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29861; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:03:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:59:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA29541 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:58:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA29537 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:58:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dial-75-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.75]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA24810; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:02:50 -0500 Message-ID: <34B7E1F8.465C@together.net> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:02:49 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: khassan CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: heat load References: <34B726C9.12B707F8@mnsinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1130 Reality vs. Perception I don't wish to burst anyones' bubbles, but heating/ cooling contractors for residential systems usually do not calculate heating and cooling loads. Yes Virginia, it is true. Some do, of course, but the vast majority use the old rule of thumb values. For example, a new reasonably well insulated new home in Northern Vermont (common practice is -20 F design, or lower in the hills, not per ASHRAE fundamentals) will come out at 25 Btu per square foot design heating load. For commercial structures with standard office occupancy and OA mechanical ventilation (Vermont): The rule is 50 Btu SqFt design heating and 1 cfm a foot for cooling overall. These rules of thumb, when anaylzed later as I have done on occasion are, surprisingly, usually damn close too. I am not passing judgement.... simply stating the facts of real world construction practice as observed in the U.S. over the years. Tom Anderson khassan wrote: > > I am not sure if I read it here or not but I need info for my heating > contractor to consider when calculating my heating requirements. Any > suggestions will be greatly appreciated. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 10 16:32:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA15991 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:32:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA28163 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00700; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:26:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:22:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00368 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00364 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:20:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.137] (1Cust137.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.137]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA13787 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:25:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801102125.NAA13787@italy.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: block/roof tile machine Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 13:29:06 -0000 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1131 Twila There's a great book on the topic of earth blocks listed in the Iris Catalog. It's called Earth Construction: A Comprehensive Guide. There's a ton of information about soil structure and machinery for making blocks of earth. The coverage of adobe is a little thin and there are only a few pages on rammed earth. But the material on blocks is extentive. Your can see a good description and complete table of contents in the online catalog: www.oikos.com/irisinfo/catlog/ I am also considered two new books for the spring catalog on this topic. You may also want to check out the Center for Maximum Building Potential (MaxPot). Sorry I don't have a URL at my fingertips, but you could probably get there through . They have done a good deal of work with caliche (sp?) blocks which occurs through Texas and the southwest. If you're in that area, Pliny Fisk highly recommends this widely available material. Bruce >Somewhere out there is plans for a low tech method of making earth blocks >and roofing tile from clay. I have run down all the sources I have and >would appreciate any steering you could provide. This list has been >exceptionally good about helping out with calls for help. An entire >education can be had from this list. Thanks in advance. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 10 19:45:44 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA20647 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:45:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA17501 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:44:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05485; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:39:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:34:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05185 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:33:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05181 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:33:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA01027 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:39:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 10 Jan 1998 16:38:27 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: Max BUILDING POTENTIAL To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAA05182 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1132 All--This very interesting list includes an email address someone was looking for. http://204.243.73.5/REE.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 10 20:39:00 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA21727 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 20:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA00061 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 20:37:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA06690; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 20:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Jan 1998 20:28:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA06361 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 20:27:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06356 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 20:26:57 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <3106f526.34b820db@aol.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 20:31:05 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: Mortgages Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1133 Greenbuilders, A few years ago, I had a great opportunity to help Benson Woodworking Company explore several avenues to bring their services and homes to a broader market. The key at several levels was the "affordability issue." They have lists of thousands of people who would love to live in one of their beautiful, durable, environmentally friendly timber frame homes. The problem was most folks couldn't afford them at a price Benson's could build them for profitably at the time. It is an issue many of us trying to build lasting high quality homes have to face. It's a tough nut to crack. One of the things we did was explore mortgage and appraisal issues. While it seems educating appraisers in a local market is a valuable approach, the overriding issues seemed to lay outside local impact and instead are structural issues in the banking and mortgage industries. With potential changes in the financial markets, these structural realities may change quickly, if bonds become favorable to stocks, but here's what I concluded about mortgages in the United States in the current financial environment. It is important to look at the perspective from the other side of the desk in figuring out why it is hard to get better terms, spreads or rates for a mortgage on a sustainable 400 year life house vs. a fast and dirty tract house or a geodesic dome. A bank can borrow at the discount rate from the Federal Reserve, invest in mutual funds with a safe mix of government bonds and Fortune 500 stocks and get a higher return than mortgages are paying. The money stays liquid and available for future opportunities for safe high return investments rather than being tied up for thirty years. For a banker, thirty years is an awfully long scary time to make economic guesses about. On the secondary market Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, et al are willing to buy basically all the mortgage paper that banks and mortgage companies can write. The banks make their profit selling mortgages on transaction fees and points, dump the risk off on these quasi-government agencies, and use the funds they have from savings, checking and investment accounts for better investments in shorter term, more lucrative deals. Getting a mortgage from a bank, credit union or mortgage company really doesn't matter. They are all going to just resell them on the secondary market anyway. A mortgage is a commodity product. The qualifying rules are set by Fannie Mae et al. You either fit their definition of acceptable or you don't. If you don't it is because your income, credit history or equity (the issue in our discussion) doesn't fit the standard national formulas. In that case your paper is sold on the secondary market to private investors demanding higher rates, more transaction fees or better collateral. For mortgage shoppers the best approach is to simply shop. Go for the best transaction fees, rates and terms and don't hope for anything too unusual. A month or two ago Forbes magazine had an excellent expose type article on Fannie Mae. It is an interesting but frustrating read for anyone hoping for what the mortgage thread of this list seems to be hoping for. After reading it, I am even more convinced than before that these government mortgage agencies should be abolished so we can return some competition and creativity to the mortgage market. Like most well intentioned government programs, these mortgage agencies were corrupted by power, money and mission creep to the point that it is questionable whether their net impact on society is positive at all. My guess is that about the best shot you might have on a really unusual project is convincing a local bank that they should hold paper on your project in their in house loan portfolio so it isn't subject to all the same rules as a conventional mortgage. But why should they do that? The best approach might be a PR approach: The bank is funding a groovy planet saving eco-house. With Al Gore running for president, these issues will be in the public eye. It will be good business for banks to fund one or two eco projects and publicize the hell out of them. Not a long term, large scale, national solution, but it might help you get a couple cool houses built in your local market and greatly expand your own business opportunities. Lasting long term change generally happens this way anyhow, one step at a time, by people acting in their own self interest trying to devise a better mousetrap. I'd be interested in any other ideas you all might have. When we examine the bankers reality, perhaps there are great opportunities for us. Another approach is the one Benson Woodworking is following in trying to value engineer and redesign their own systems and products to bring very high quality lasting homes to the market at a significant savings compared to what they were doing just a few years ago. They found, as you will too, that a large part of the nut that had to be cracked was essentially internal and within their control to impact relatively easily and in a relatively short time frame. Their products and services are becoming more affordable than they were before, without sacricing quality or value. In my own company's projects we are finding ways to achieve many of the energy, air quality and other environmental improvements in the homes we build for pretty minimal additional costs. And I am learning that I can sell those improvements to my customers pretty easily. On a current project, after showing him an energy analysis for his small colonial home, my customer decided that using icynene insulation is going to provide him a guarunteed 20% return on his investment, tax free for the full thirty year term of his mortgage. After that, it will earn him $500 or $600 a year tax free for the rest of his life (ultra-conservatively assuming no inflation in energy costs in the next thirty years). He can't get that kind of safe high yield return from his mutual funds or retirement plan. My customer made this suggestion to me, I didn't sell it that way. And he's not a sophisticated stock broker or accountant. He's a truck driver for Federal Express and his wife is a nurse. I told him that because the house would be so tight, I wouldn't put the icynene in unless we also put in at least an exaust only ventilation system. Without even asking him, I also included in my estimate two insulated 3/4" pipes and a piece of electrical conduit running from the basement to the attic so the house will be "solar ready". Because the icynene insulation system is so easy to air seal with, I can also get better trade prices than I was getting with more complicated energy saving systems because I can use normal subs for plumbing and electric that can treat my projects almost the same as they treat the jobs for the low cost hacks I have to compete with locally. For about three thousand dollars over what they would have paid for a "code" house, my customers have a really tight energy efficient house with a good ventilation system that can easily be adapted to photovoltaics or solar DHW at any time in the future. Most important, my customers thinks it's the best investment they ever made. They used to think banks, retirement plans and mutual funds were the best places to put their money. Now they are hiding it in the walls of their house. Maybe we should just compete with the banks for savings and investment dollars rather than crawling to them on hands and knees for special favors or trying to get the government to force them to change their rules. The bankers will learn from real life examples of our customers experiences to value what we have to sell. The message overall: Good luck changing the banking system folks. In the mean time, take the advise of that old kung fu TV show and "look within grasshopper". Keep smiling, Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 10 21:38:30 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA22850 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:38:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA16950 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:37:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08370; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:32:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:27:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07822 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:26:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07813 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:26:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sa7-p34.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.162]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id VAA26931 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:31:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34B82E03.3F46@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:27:15 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: re: Mortgages References: <3106f526.34b820db@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1134 Fred Unger wrote: > > Maybe we should just compete with the banks for savings and investment > dollars rather than crawling to them on hands and knees for special favors or > trying to get the government to force them to change their rules. The bankers > will learn from real life examples of our customers experiences to value what > we have to sell. > > The message overall: Good luck changing the banking system folks. In the mean > time, take the advise of that old kung fu TV show and "look within > grasshopper". > > Keep smiling, Fred Unger > Thanks Fred, This is exactly what I meant when I said the market demand will shape the power blocks, rather than expending valuable time and resources trying to leverage megalithic beauracracies into line, lead them there. Sometimes the obvious solution is the solution. I was surprised that only one person initially had any comments to make about leveraging consumers rather than power institutions. It is not the entire answer, but it seems like an obvious starting point. The question is still the same. How do you get your message to the market place? How do you influence the consumers 'Dream Home" image? Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 10 21:39:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA22875 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:39:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA17453 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:38:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08547; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:33:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:28:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07875 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:27:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07864 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from maxwell.ampsc.com (maxwell.ampsc.com [207.102.161.139]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA20396; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:32:42 -0800 Message-ID: <34B82E8B.91D@ampsc.com> Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:29:31 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: betsy hooper & buddy floyd CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment References: <199801110138.UAA02850@transfer.usit.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1135 You may or may not agree with what I say, but I will say my intention is to 'trigger' some cerebreal activity beyond your normal perspective. betsy hooper & buddy floyd wrote: > > First I'd like to say that I do appreciate any response. This one was > certainly thought provoking. > > At 11:24 AM 1/10/98 -0800, > In response to my query about "green" development you wrote: > > >I have watched the progressions of development trends over the last 30 > >years, as well as being principally involved as a construction general > >contractor and land developer. I have the following to offer; > > > > >The solution to everyone's problems concerning the disappearances of > >'green spaces' will be found by increasing the minimum sizes for lots, > >acreages,and all of the land subdivision classifications, to a minium of > >acreages in rural landscapes, and amalgamation of smaller lots in urban > >landscapes, > > You Can't be serious! Space is already severly limited and current > development practices are extremely destructive of the ecology of the > spaces they occupy, not to mention the added environmental expense of > transportation to and from the far-flung residencies you suggest! I am very serious, and you have obviously bought in that there isn't any more land, nor are there any more resources......the green economics solution to the supply < demand formulae created by the hypster economists of today, is the grasping of information, and greater control of the land and the resources by many, not the few, ie. waterboards, municipalities, governments, etc. As far as transportation environmental expense, if you don't build the roads, and other transportation coridoors, then there will NOT be access, other than foot traffic, and that will preserve the land and resource base. > > >It has been shown repeatedly that human occupancy, similar > >to animal occupancy, requires a certain amount of 'green space' to > >maintain a healthy occupancy, so make the minium sizes of land for > >occupancy large enough so that human occupancy can persist. > > I can't argue with the human need for space > > >There is > >also a need to increase the minimum sizes of all living units, houses, > >apartments, condominiums, etc., and the components of the units, ie. > >bedrooms must be 12' x 12' not 8' x 8',....... the trend of cramming 1 > >and 2 people into 400 sq. ft. units has to end, the trend of cramming > >1000 people into an acre of city land has to end, etc. > > > >The population must be spread out over the landscapes, not stacked and > >crammed into concentrated areas, as our cities, muncipalities, etc. have > >become already. > > > > I'd be curious to know if anyone has studied the comparative resource impact > of urban vs. suburban growth (i.e. high density vs. low density) Having > lived in cities where an automobile was not a necessity for survival, I > personally favor the higher density model (albeit liberally peppered with > communal green spaces). Any thoughts. You make a fatal error when you try to compare urban vs suburban, ie. rural growth, when you need to readdress and gain perspective from land use options, higher density models restrict access to those vast land tract and other resources, from the population, other than what glimpses are allowed through selective media and public service announcement hype. > > >This will also increase the awareness of the population of the > >importance and beauty of the landscape resources, and serve as a > >constant reminding environment of that which is vital to the continuing > >safe and healthy occupancy of that land resource of ours. > > > >two cents. > > > >Richard. > > > >R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis > > Again thanks for the input. > > Betsy Hooper > bfloyd@usit.net Overall think, instead of uninterrupted rows of buildings common to all civilization community centres, ie. villages, towns, cities, etc., you will see green spaces interrupted by periodic placements of buildings still common to rural countrysides. Richard R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 11 10:06:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA18242 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:06:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA17161 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:05:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23477; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:59:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:54:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23002 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:53:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc513.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22995 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from IEL#u#MAIL-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:01:44 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:01:21 -0500 From: Arnie Katz To: greenbuilding@crest.org, bfloyd@USIT.NET Subject: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1136 Betsy: There will be an excellent half-day workshop on green developments at the Southeastern Green Building Conference, March 2-4 in Greensboro, NC. The presenters are experienced developers doing wonderful work-- not theoretical stuff. More info from the NC Green Building Council: call Craig Berry or Kim Henley, 919/851-8444; fax 919/851-6009; email: NCRecycles@aol.com Arnie Katz Advanced Energy Raleigh, NC >>> betsy hooper & buddy floyd 01/10/98 09:29am >>> It seems to me that in order to effect change we need to intervene as far up the economic "food chain" as possible. In my case, I live in an area where suburban sprawl is eating up the landscape at a pehnomenal rate. While I have no illusions of this phenomenon slowing down short of an economic disaster, my thought is that I could enter the arena as a "Green" developer. I am an architect, but have no experience in the real estate arena. Still, it seems to me that there are enough concerned people out there without the time or inclination to build their own "green" homes, that this could some how be a useful service. Anyone out there with experience in this arena? Pitfalls to watch out for? Resources available? Betsy Hooper bfloyd@usit.net Knoxville, Tennessee ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 11 10:29:47 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20258 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:29:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21685 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24981; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:23:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:18:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24365 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:17:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc513.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24357 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:17:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from IEL#u#MAIL-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:25:45 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:25:22 -0500 From: Arnie Katz To: khassan@mnsinc.com, hvac@together.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: heat load -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1137 I agree with Tom Anderson (see Below) that residential hvac contractors rarely do heat loss/heat gain calculations. My experience, however, is that the rules of thumb they use are substantially off. In my part of the world (North Carolina), equipment is sized for the cooling load. The rule of thumb most typically used is "1 ton (12,000 BTU) for every 600 square feet. " This leads to oversizing almost always, and substantial oversizing a good bit of the time. In a climate that primarily requires heating, oversizing the equipment costs more money up front and causes effiency losses. On the cooling side, it also leads to equipment that doesn't run enough to dehumidify, causing the comfort problems described in Catherine Muller's post. Bottom line? Recognize that Tom Anderson is right about common practice--and then find a contractor who will do what Catherine described so well. And then you have the problem of actually getting the system installed correctly, but that's another story... Arnie Katz Advanced Energy Raleigh, NC >>> Tom Anderson 01/10/98 04:02pm >>> Reality vs. Perception I don't wish to burst anyones' bubbles, but heating/ cooling contractors for residential systems usually do not calculate heating and cooling loads. Yes Virginia, it is true. Some do, of course, but the vast majority use the old rule of thumb values. For example, a new reasonably well insulated new home in Northern Vermont (common practice is -20 F design, or lower in the hills, not per ASHRAE fundamentals) will come out at 25 Btu per square foot design heating load. For commercial structures with standard office occupancy and OA mechanical ventilation (Vermont): The rule is 50 Btu SqFt design heating and 1 cfm a foot for cooling overall. These rules of thumb, when anaylzed later as I have done on occasion are, surprisingly, usually damn close too. I am not passing judgement.... simply stating the facts of real world construction practice as observed in the U.S. over the years. Tom Anderson khassan wrote: > > I am not sure if I read it here or not but I need info for my heating > contractor to consider when calculating my heating requirements. Any > suggestions will be greatly appreciated. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 11 10:30:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20269 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:30:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21816 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:29:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25054; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:24:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:19:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24401 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:18:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24393 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:18:21 -0500 (EST) From: NMBlues Message-ID: <7c3a5c18.34b8e391@aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:21:52 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1138 In a message dated 98-01-10 14:32:44 EST, you write: << There is also a need to increase the minimum sizes of all living units, houses, apartments, condominiums, etc., and the components of the units, ie. bedrooms must be 12' x 12' not 8' x 8',....... the trend of cramming 1 and 2 people into 400 sq. ft. units has to end, the trend of cramming 1000 people into an acre of city land has to end, etc. >> Dear Ricahard, I beg to differ---i think 400 sf is fine for me when i do not have all the accouterment "must-haves" of modern life---and 600 shared with someone i love sounds great, maybe 200-600 more if we work out of the area and have rescued animals and children---I want smaller living spaces so there CAN be more oudoor green spaces for both animals and humans. I must say that my life is about striving towards that smaller indoor shelter space and owning less and less stuff---a 2-tons-of-resources-to-make portable 7 pound computer [though i don't have one] easily fits in 400 sf. I believe we can not keep spreading out, having bigger homes AND have more outdoor greenspace. [i hope that the country dwellers who need acres to live on for food production, preserved areas, forest maintenance/protection and other things can still have some space too.] The question for me is, who is gonna die to fulfill your dream? Maybe I misunderstood your dream. Maybe it really was about better DESIGN of those 400 sf condos, apartments, etc. Maybe I just got defensive because I am constantly trying to get people to live in smaller spaces and get rid of there stuff--in the gentlest way possible, I hope. The one who dies with the most toys doesn't have a clue, Dona Stankus, AIA Raleigh, NC ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 11 11:24:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22121 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:24:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03795 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:23:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27421; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:18:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:13:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27157 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:12:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27153 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:12:46 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <331248d0.34b8f08b@aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:17:14 EST Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Missing post Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1139 Some days back I sent, I thought, a Please help post regarding roofovers. However I have not seen any response and I can't find a record of the post. I think that the computer ate my homework, but before I re-do it I want to make sure I'm not just bothering people who aren't interested. Has anyone seen it? Dan Hemenway Permacltur@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 11 12:43:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24883 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:43:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA23480 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29986; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:36:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:31:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA29621 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:30:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29577 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:29:59 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <3108239f.34b902be@aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:34:53 EST To: NMBlues@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1140 In a message dated 1/11/98 3:28:13 PM, Dona Stankus, AIA Raleigh, NC wrote: <> I love it: another true gem of wisdom from this list. Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 11 13:53:45 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27709 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:53:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA07938 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:52:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02094; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:47:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:42:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA01796 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:41:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01789 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:41:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.105.102] (usrts2p102.port.net [207.237.105.102]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA29996 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:46:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801111846.NAA29996@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: GBlist: Septic Systems Literature Date: Sun, 11 Jan 98 13:49:25 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1141 I was wondering if anyone could refer me to a good general overview type book on septic systems. I have a site which is generally not very deep to bedrock and have been told a 'mound system' might be a possibility. I need to dig some test pits to obtain further soils info aside from the info provided by my local Soil Conservation Service, but I would also like to start reading up on the subject since at this point I basically know nothing. Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 11 14:05:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA27887 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA10217 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:04:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02842; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:58:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:54:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02331 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:53:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02318 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:53:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.69] (1Cust69.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.69]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA19034 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:58:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801111858.KAA19034@germany.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Septic Systems Literature Date: Sun, 11 Jan 98 11:01:25 -0000 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1142 Clarence The National Small Flows Clearinghouse tons on information on sewage treatment systems and septic systems: National Small Flows Clearinghouse West Virginia University PO Box 6064 Morgantown WV 26506-6064 800-624-8301 304-293-4191 304-293-3161 nsfc_orders@estd.wvu.edu Bruce >I was wondering if anyone could refer me to a good general overview type >book on septic systems. I have a site which is generally not very deep to >bedrock and have been told a 'mound system' might be a possibility. I >need to dig some test pits to obtain further soils info aside from the >info provided by my local Soil Conservation Service, but I would also >like to start reading up on the subject since at this point I basically >know nothing. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 11 16:22:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA04295 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:22:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA10842 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:21:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA07726; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:16:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:11:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07346 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:10:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07342 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:10:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from genesis.ampsc.com (genesis.ampsc.com [207.102.161.148]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA06065; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:16:16 -0800 Message-ID: <34B935BB.29E8@ampsc.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:12:27 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: NMBlues CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment References: <1bd61b18.34b8e37b@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1143 NMBlues wrote: > > In a message dated 98-01-10 14:32:44 EST, you write: > > << There is > also a need to increase the minimum sizes of all living units, houses, > apartments, condominiums, etc., and the components of the units, ie. > bedrooms must be 12' x 12' not 8' x 8',....... the trend of cramming 1 > and 2 people into 400 sq. ft. units has to end, the trend of cramming > 1000 people into an acre of city land has to end, etc. >> > > Dear Ricahard, > > I beg to differ---i think 400 sf is fine for me when i do not have all the > accouterment "must-haves" of modern life---and 600 shared with someone i love > sounds great, maybe 200-600 more if we work out of the area and have rescued > animals and children---I want smaller living spaces so there CAN be more > oudoor green spaces for both animals and humans. I must say that my life is > about striving towards that smaller indoor shelter space and owning less and > less stuff---a 2-tons-of-resources-to-make portable 7 pound computer [though i > don't have one] easily fits in 400 sf. > > I believe we can not keep spreading out, having bigger homes AND have more > outdoor greenspace. [i hope that the country dwellers who need acres to live > on for food production, preserved areas, forest maintenance/protection and > other things can still have some space too.] The question for me is, who is > gonna die to fulfill your dream? > > Maybe I misunderstood your dream. Maybe it really was about better DESIGN of > those 400 sf condos, apartments, etc. Maybe I just got defensive because I am > constantly trying to get people to live in smaller spaces and get rid of there > stuff--in the gentlest way possible, I hope. > > The one who dies with the most toys doesn't have a clue, > Dona Stankus, AIA > Raleigh, NC You are sick Dona, and because of people like you, most will never learn to appreciate the benefit of green spaces as part of their local environment. Christ almighty, you AIA guys are just a bunch of dummies. Richard. -- R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 11 17:08:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA04971 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:08:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA22143 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:07:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA09189; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:02:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:56:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA08853 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:56:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (mail.bigpond.com [139.134.5.225]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA08843 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:55:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ma-a01-pool-152.tmns.net.au (ma-a01-pool-152.tmns.net.au [139.134.93.152]) by teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ra088027 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:00:33 +1100 From: "Brian Woodward" To: "Permacltur" , , , , Subject: Re: GBlist: Public compost toilets Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:00:41 +1100 Message-ID: <01bd1edc$5ba94420$985d868b@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1144 On 3rd Jan Dan wrote: >There are three basic types of composting toilets: > >1) Clivus and other high tech types. >2) Mouldering toilets. >3) Methane digesters. > >The choice between 1 and 2 is easy. 1 sucks. The more complex the toilet is >made, the more problems people have with it. By 'Mouldering toilets' do you mean what I call 'batch systems' as opposed to continuous systems like the Clivus? If so, I agree with you that 'Mouldering toilets are superior to continuous systems, We have been sucessfully using a mudbrick one I designed and built 12 years ago. You seem to imply that all high tech types are continuous systems and therefore inferior. In Australia this is not the case. There are at least two commercially available batch systems, which although high tech operate very simply. One major limitation we have in Australia is the requirement for approval of on-site waste treatment systems by State health authorities (I imagine you would have similar requirements in the U.S.). Obtaining approvals for one-off examples of composting toilets is complicated and expensive for the required testing. So it is far easier to use a commercial one which has all the required approvals. So, although I have a one-off owner built composting toilets, I always advise clients to use commercial versions even in owner built houses. >2 is simplest. You have oversized chambers divided halfway (as high as the >pile will get) by a cement block (ferrocement web, etc) wall. Use side A >until you have a really big pile. Then seal it off and use side B. Side A >should moulder away for several years. The larger the chambers the higher the required floor hight. In single story high houses (the majority of Australian homes are single story) this can pose a severe design limitation on other than sloping sites. Because of this the trend in Australia has been to minimise the hight of units as much as possible, and even Clivas has a low hight system available now. In batch systems this means that turnaround times is usually about 9 months (regulations reqire a minimum of 6 months) >Problems with 2 are as follows. > i) People are required to add carbonaceous material. (same is true of 1) You >can develop a cute dry flush system (pull the chain and the correct amount of >sawdust falls on top of the turd), but in my opinion casual visitors to the >park won't use it regularly. > ii) 2 works best if you don't pee into it. Urine creates anerobic >conditions and the mouldering becomes inefficient (and stinky). You can >locate a funnel near the "front" (from sitting position) that diverts urine >from both men and women to a holding tank where it can ferment until used >directly as fertilizer. What does the park want to fertilize? Important >question, eh? Men who stand should use a urinal that delivers to the tank. >Men who stand and pee onto the pile will mess you up. Try to get people to >change their excretion habits! This all sounds like the theoretical stuff researchers were talking about 20 years ago in books like 'Goodbye to the Flush Toilet'. Trying to get all but the most environmentally committed to change their excretion habits is very difficult, and we want more than the environmentally committed to use composting toilets. Health authorities in Australia accept this and so require composting toilets to deal with urine. This is usually achieved with fans to evaporate off excess liquid, but I agree a change in habit is more desirable (we have, we have a squat also which is much healthier). If you do manage to seperate urine into a storage tank then make sure you have some organic matter in the tank to prevent the high nitrogen levels in the urine changing to amonia and stinking the place out. If you are interested in the development of on-site treatment systems you may like to check out the following web-site. www.dowmus.com Brian Woodward, Earthways, Australia. Qualified Architect -specialising in and living with Sustainable Technologies, Low Cost, Owner Built, Passive Solar, Loadbearing Mudbrick construction, Composting Toilets, and Solar Electricity. -Overseas Aid Work in Nepal and South Africa. -Earthways Sustainable Lifestyles Resource Center, Wollombi, N.S.W. Australia. e-mail brianwoodward@bigpond.com Webpage www.users.bigpond.com/nsw9999 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 11 19:19:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA10574 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:19:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA24510 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:18:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12780; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:08:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA12467 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:07:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12463 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:07:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA05717; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:12:32 -0800 Message-ID: <34B95EDD.7E4A85E4@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:07:57 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: F Unger CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: re: insurance discussion evolving References: <869ced07.34b629ce@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1145 F Unger wrote: > John, > > If we can't get beyond the paradigm that commerce and sustainability are > incompatible, we will never solve our problems either ecological or economic. Perhaps not so humbly yours, Fred Unger I have the feeling that I should be feeling chastised for my lack of faith in market driven forces rather I feel as if I dropped into the wrong party. This is the greenbuilding forum isn't it? Comprising a demographic that has watched the environment become increasingly compromised by economic pressure and posture, that has witnessed the only environmental protection come as a result of 'bureaucratic proscription'. I'm sorry that I cannot jump on this particular public relations bandwagon as I've just recovered from the one where some major forestry companies tried to convince me that they were doing a splendid job and that they were partners in environmental protection (I do admit I would probably be less severe if I was addressing a group with primarily economic interests) I might be more sympathetic if it were not for one simple thing - that corporations have one edict - to maximize profits for their shareholders - and that this simple order displaces the potential of any other interest and if it cannot be shown to be in evidence in the daily operations of a company then that company is liable to the shareholders for any potential loss of economic gain. Much of our discussion on our list focuses on the shortcomings and inappropriateness of so many materials and technologies, much of our time is spent on strategies to overcome these problems - a simple review of any strategy of consequence will show that it is regulatory in origin - not market. A historical review of economic practice does show a 'paradigmatic' rise in bureaucratic processes to ostensibly provide some semblance of protection for the population at large i.e. those not liable to gain economically. The vast majority of the people and the remaining ecology of which those people form a part are daily suffering the indignities of our economies - I certainly am a reluctant participant but would be horrified to have to forego any reflection or critique and to have to willingly be partners in such a holocaust. There is so much to say on this topic. I recommend Jane Jacob's discussion on the dichotomy of market and environment. As to the rest. I am very humbly yours John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 11 19:28:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA11070 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:28:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA26881 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:27:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA13174; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:22:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:17:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA12876 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:16:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12870 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:16:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.162.253.80] (d60.best1.net [205.162.253.80]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA29202; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:21:38 -0800 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:22:30 -0100 To: rjmoore@ampsc.com From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1146 Richard wrote: > >The population must be spread out over the landscapes, not stacked and >crammed into concentrated areas, as our cities, muncipalities, etc. have >become already. > >This will also increase the awareness of the population of the >importance and beauty of the landscape resources, and serve as a >constant reminding environment of that which is vital to the continuing >safe and healthy occupancy of that land resource of ours. > >two cents. > >Richard. Dona replied: > I believe we can not keep spreading out, having bigger homes AND have more > outdoor greenspace. [i hope that the country dwellers who need acres to live > on for food production, preserved areas, forest maintenance/protection and > other things can still have some space too.] The question for me is, who is > gonna die to fulfill your dream? > > Maybe I misunderstood your dream. Maybe it really was about better DESIGN of > those 400 sf condos, apartments, etc. Maybe I just got defensive because I am > constantly trying to get people to live in smaller spaces and get rid of there > stuff--in the gentlest way possible, I hope. Richard : >You are sick Dona, and because of people like you, most will never learn >to appreciate the benefit of green spaces as part of their local >environment. >Christ almighty, you AIA guys are just a bunch of dummies. I'm with Dona on this. The more spread out we are, the less open space, more space given to roads, more demand for the infernal combustion engine, more time spent commuting and away from hearth and home. We can not have it all. We are best served living in proximity to services, work and neighbors; developing a sense of place and community; leaving land for agriculture and for the need of our souls to spread in an unenecumbered environment. And maybe living closer to others teaches us sensitivity and compassion, qualities lacking in your response to Dona, Richard. Currently we are in the midst of a major battle here on CA's Central coast to save some of the last undisturbed, undeveloped ag and open space from the ravages of the sort of leapfrog developemnt that will irreversibly change the quality of life for thousands, and detroy a coastline for ever, and for everyone. Our foe: the Heast Corporation. We go before the CA Coastal Commission on Thursday. Wish us luck. If we are not prepared to cluster development, to densify in order to protect the little open space left in the heavily populated parts of our country, there won't be anything left to preserve. Steve McGrath McGrath Associates 665 Buchon St., San Luis Obispo, CA 93401 Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 11 21:31:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA15479 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:31:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA26361 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:29:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17058; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:24:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:19:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16710 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:18:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.165]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16705 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:18:34 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:18:54 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Fwd: Re: Re: GBlist: re: insurance discussion evolving Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_884571532_boundary" Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1147 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_884571532_boundary Content-ID: <0_884571532@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII John, In a message dated 1/12/98 12:17:50 AM, you wrote: <> Please post a reference or copy of Jane Jacob's discussion. I would like to read it before responding to your post more fully. You also wrote: << I feel as if I dropped into the wrong party. >> You are surely at the right party. We are all trying to find solutions to the same problems. The best solutions are usually borne from approaching problems from different angles rather than approaching them with blinders on. The real value and strength of this discussion is the diversity of ideas we can bring to it. Thanks for your stimulating thoughts, Fred Unger P.S. My giant corporation has three people working for it. --part0_884571532_boundary Content-ID: <0_884571532@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: F Unger Return-path: To: terrain@cow-net.com Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: re: insurance discussion evolving Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:08:24 EST Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit John, In a message dated 1/12/98 12:17:50 AM, you wrote: <> Please post a reference or copy of Jane Jacob's discussion. I would like to read it before responding to your post more fully. You are surely at the right party. We are all trying to find solutions to the same problems. The best solutions are usually borne from approaching problems from different angles rather than approaching them with blinders on. The real value and strength of this discussion is the diversity of ideas we can bring to it. Thanks for your stimulating thoughts, Fred Unger P.S. My giant corporation has three people working for it. --part0_884571532_boundary-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 11 23:03:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA18344 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:03:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA20635 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA20866; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:56:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:52:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA20310 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA20306; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:52:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31902; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:56:08 -0700 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:56:08 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Straube Cc: John Dittli , "'Paul S. Hetrick'" , "'strawbale@crest.org'" , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: window ratings In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1148 You said: "If the ER rating is below 0, the window gains more than it loses. Values like -10 and -20 mean that it gains 10 or 20 W/m^2 (or some such units). Make sure yuget a low-E window with a SHGF. John: Sorry some of this is news to me! I think you got heat loss mixed up with heat gain, don't you think? ER is just one of several relevant criteria. Neither ER nor SHGC are necessarily the most critical in any project or all windows. In fact they are not even necessarily proportional. Both may be overridden by other criteria as noted below. ER is just a relative comparison number (in W/m2) and an average from across Canada. Not too specific! Contrary to your assertion that a ER= -20 is better than ER=-10, the opposite is true. The heat loss of the total window system (considering infiltration, total frame/COG/edge of glass u value, passive solar gain, heat loss etc.) is double! *** The higher the + number, the better the window, the lower the - number the worse (not better) it is.*** In developing real world window/door schedules there are many other criteria involved in specifying windows. Very specific to the site, geographic region, client and building design. Other criteria involved in window selection include: orientation, proximity to human activity, type of human activity and type of space, humidity production, view, heat loss, heat gain, people or plants, type of heat source, heated space or buffer zone, weight of window, size of window, etc. Technical criteria include: visible light, UV blocked or admitted, Center of Glass R (or u) value, shading coefficient, relative cost, Solar Heat Gain Coefficient, infiltration rates, etc. Then there are criteria for the type and manufacture of window material. Our window/door schedules have most of this specified. Some manufacturers have excellent glossaries and charts as part of their catalogues. In our own home we have several types of glass, gas, spacer bars, low E coatings (including AR film). On our prototype window (COG R-value =17), we have 4 low E coatings, some single, some double. The highest ER=17. Someone asked if there is a book written on our home the other day. No there is not, but for anyone interested in the Windows, Shades and SunPipes selected and used in our home there is a short conference paper of that title, for a cost. _________________________________________________________ Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 11 23:23:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA19783 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:23:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA26651 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:22:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA22157; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:13:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21632 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:13:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21628 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:13:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA09738; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:18:10 -0800 Message-ID: <34B9986F.C91C6530@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:13:35 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, FUnger@aol.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: economics and environment References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1149 John Straube wrote: > . Market economics is all about ensuring the distribution of > limited resources for the best total outcome. I've been puzzling over this for a bit. I've seen historical and contemporary evidence of the control or limiting of resources to maximize economic gain but the outcome has generally been limited in its distribution. I've also followed the excessive usage of resources for gain but again the distribution has been limited and even the cost of such usage has not been fully accounted for. Religious faith or even environmentalism might be described as the distribution of limited resources for the best total outcome but in matters of faith outcome is generally an matter of interpretation and of limited effect. Market economics has dominated the field for some time with little outcome that I would consider positive > The "failings" (and > probably its strength) of the present system is that there are many > mechanisms that distort the workings of this mechanism. These distortions > are largely a reflection of society's value system. If society values the workings of the marketplace and expects in theory the best outcome from such a valuation then what values remain that could create any more distortion than the original premise. > > > If people can be made to value fresh, clean air and a thriving ecosystem > instead of diamonds and gold, the price of the later would plummet to > industrial levels, and human and capital resources would be employed to > preserve the former. The proper pricing of pollution (e.g., CO2 and PCB, > etc.) would also dramatically change things. Unfortunately a value is already being put on such limited resources as fresh air and a thriving ecosystem and in the case of my own locale they are being exploited as real estate, tourism and export of water, etc. but only because the underlying resources begin to shrink in economic value or have 'bureaucratic prohibitions' attached to any further exploitation. Can you develop an economic or marketplace reasoning for putting a valuation on pollution? The only attempts to do so was again governmental. The timeframe for economic gain is extremely short in comparison to the effect of most resource exploitation or technology usage. > > > The effects of global warming on weather does concern the insurance > industry, not because they love the planet (that is their human role) but > because they stand to lose money. This is an example of the old value > system being helpful to the environment. Despite the good that can come > out of this, we need to change the value systems and the existing economic > system can, if allowed, work to ensure minimum environmental damage /max > env good with the resources we have to work with (land, labour, capital, > orginization, techology) These are not the tools i.e. existing economic system, land, labour, capital, etc. that I have found useful in working with people for the betterment of their (our) world. Generally the table has been emptied of compromising material before anything useful was attempted and if such tools are used it is with a critical understanding of their limitations. I am saddened to find myself so far from the general consensus on this discussion. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group > University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, > Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 > Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 > x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 11 23:23:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA19820 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:23:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA26690 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA22176; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:17:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:13:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21654 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:13:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21646 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:13:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA09749; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:18:27 -0800 Message-ID: <34B9987F.C4A34C82@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:13:52 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: re: insurance discussion evolving Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1150 F Unger wrote: > John, > > > > P.S. My giant corporation has three people working for it. Hi Fred So does mine. I started an environmental business about 7 years ago because it seemed important to practice beliefs. My thoughts about the potential were similar to what they are now though I have gained a few insights in the interval. I'll post the Jane Jacob's references and I hope the discussion continues because it seems pivotal that our pursuits especially because they are bound in actual practice (and because they are so minimal in the grand scheme) maintain a critical edge. Best John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 11 23:27:15 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA19917 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:27:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA27815 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:26:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA22487; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:21:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:16:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA22039 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA22031 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:16:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust153.tnt6.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.17.153]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA28234; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:21:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34B999B1.6569@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:18:57 -0800 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, rjmoore@ampsc.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment References: <1bd61b18.34b8e37b@aol.com> <34B935BB.29E8@ampsc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1151 Arjay wrote: > > You are sick Dona, and because of people like you, most will never learn > to appreciate the benefit of green spaces as part of their local > environment. Whoa! A bit strong for a restrained and respectful discussion? Look here, this is a potent thread. Fred Unger's essay that got it started was on the money[pun inserted to lighten the mood]. I think that the very way this discussion has gone is a perfect illustration of why it is so hard to effect a shift in the direction of our economy and the way we all operate: we tend to take one side of an argument and fight off differing views. Much harder to stretch, to try and understand the grains of truth that _every_ perspective carries. Fred's original point was that it _is_ possible to bring existing economics into line with the natural systems of the earth, a win-win, if you will. It isn't easy, and I'm not sure anyone has hit on the way to do it. But we face these paradoxes constantly in this business. How many builders on this list remove those florescent lights in the Kitchen after the final inspection and install incandescents? (California code). Face it, by saving energy we have to stand the glare of less pleasant lights. How many of us want the soulful quality of stain-grade fir paneling over the mantel, even though we know this is an old-growth product? So RJ wants to spread people out over the landscape more, to connect them better with the earth around them, while Dona advocates simpler and more compact living, out of respect for the remaining unbuilt ecosystem. There is value in both sides of this coin, and I could argue both ways. I think we would all do better to consider the diverse perspectives instead of name-calling...out of consideration of the opposites, maybe just maybe grains of wisdom may be born. I do recommend the writings of Tom Bender, which appear in diverse places on the net and in print. He's an architect in Oregon who has adeptly addressed our economic system, and the general futility of the sustainable movement to effect any central change. Seth Melchert Master Builders Oakland, CA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 00:48:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA22389 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:48:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA18015 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:47:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA24374; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:42:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:38:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA24106 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:37:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA24102 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:37:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-05.topher.net [208.199.183.211]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA01004; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:35:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:35:13 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801120535.XAA01004@mail.topher.net> X-Sender: ewestbrook@mail.topher.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Arnie Katz , khassan@mnsinc.com, hvac@together.net From: Elena Westbrook Subject: Re: GBlist: heat load -Reply Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1152 At 10:25 AM 1/11/98 -0500, Arnie Katz wrote: >I agree with Tom Anderson (see Below) that residential hvac contractors rarely do heat loss/heat gain >calculations. My experience, however, is that the rules of thumb they use are substantially off. We (and our builder) had a little trouble with the geothermal contractor on this issue. They kept wanting to size the unit based just on our square footage. But, since Paul (my husband and the house designer) had already calculated the heat load in great detail, they backed off when he showed them the calculations and gave us the size we wanted. But when our builder when to do another well-insulated, passive-solar house for a client who *isn't* a mechanical engineer, they ran into a bigger argument. The builder couldn't calculate heat loads, but knew that they didn't need 8 tons of A/C for this house, which is what the hvac guys were insisting on. They solved the problem by asking Paul to calculate the actual heat load, which came out to about half the hvac contractor's guess (demand?). I haven't followed up to see if they've quit arguing yet, though. ;-) The point is this: Unless you can find a contractor who actually calculates heat loads (hahahahahah), get an independent calculation of the actual load. Someone pointed out to me (on this list? I can't remember) that oversizing units covers a multitude of sins. Bad ductwork, stuck dampers, etc. just aren't noticeable to the average homeowner if the unit is twice the size it needs to be. Unless, of course, you're in Florida and mold starts growing on the walls because the A/C doesn't run long enough to dehumidify the building. Best Regards, Elena Westbrook, ELS WordWright Communications EWestbrook@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 01:17:15 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA22845 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 01:17:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA23608 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 01:16:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA25166; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 01:10:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 01:06:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA24769 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 01:06:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA24763 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 01:06:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.100.45]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA11482; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 06:11:13 +0000 Message-ID: <34B965F1.C1A03D78@which.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 00:38:10 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jean Gallagher CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: SIPs, SUBS, ATTIC HEAT X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1153 Sorry for the slow response, and I don't know if there have been any other replies. I am thinking of doing the opposite. Blowing the air from downstairs floor level up to the top of the house to force the hot air down and reverse the natural flow. Malcolm Scott Jean Gallagher wrote: > And, perhaps this is dumb, but would I be wasting my time trying to > devise a system to pump the heated air in my attic down into the house > during the > winter, to supplement the furnace? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 02:12:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA24786 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:12:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA03269 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:10:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA26843; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:05:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:00:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA25935 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:00:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from harborside.com (exim@harborside.com [204.214.110.225]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA25909 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:00:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from p197.rs0.harborside.com ([204.214.111.197]) [204.214.111.197] by harborside.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0xrdpl-0006tW-00; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:58:54 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: Small spaces Date: Sun, 11 Jan 98 23:05:41 -0800 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Steve Hussey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1154 ><< There is > also a need to increase the minimum sizes of all living units, houses, > apartments, condominiums, etc., and the components of the units, ie. > bedrooms must be 12' x 12' not 8' x 8',....... the trend of cramming 1 > and 2 people into 400 sq. ft. units has to end, the trend of cramming > 1000 people into an acre of city land has to end, etc. >> The problem is the cramming part: most developers are motivated soley by profit which compels expediency. I have never yet seen or lived in an American apartment that used space effectively. Good design though can 'cram' a lot of living into a small space: just look at most Japanese designs. Dona replied that... > >I beg to differ---i think 400 sf is fine for me when i do not have all the >accouterment "must-haves" of modern life---and 600 shared with someone i love >sounds great, maybe 200-600 more if we work out of the area and have rescued >animals and children---I want smaller living spaces so there CAN be more >outdoor green spaces for both animals and humans. I must say that my life is >about striving towards that smaller indoor shelter space and owning less and >less stuff---a 2-tons-of-resources-to-make portable 7 pound computer >[though i don't have one] easily fits in 400 sf. > I have lived in everything from a 2500 SF two level brick home down to 500 SF cottage. The home sheltered two adults, cost $200,000 in 1988, had a garden, lawn...all the accouterments of modern 'must have' life. The mortgage cost me $1500 per month and wore me into the ground. My 500 SF is one level, plus sleeping loft. Super insulated, efficient, compact. I have my toys: two computers, stereo, satellite TV, kitchen etc. But no space is wasted. Construction cost: $2,400 Land $4,800 Appliances $1,500 Mortgage $0 Worry $0 Maintenance low Heating - average $45 per month year round (in Oregon) Smaller spaces need better design and efficiency. Better lighting, circulation. Built-in furniture, etc. They need: Less money to build Less land used - more for garden/vegetable garden More land around you as a buffer against the world Less money to maintain No mortgage You can take a lower paid but more satisfying job Less housework Less consumption of limited resources If anyone is interested I can give you the names of some Japanese books on making using of small spaces. Read one and you will be amazed at the ideas. Living in a compact home doesn't mean that we have to live close together: in urban areas wher land is at a premium you may have to, or choose to, in rural areas perhaps you'll live in a small house but on a few acres. In an urban areas good design can mitigate living close together. Today's Sunday Oregonian has an excellent feature in the realty section on building a small development of comfortable NW Vernacular homes on a small lot. Good design gives the houses nice views, open space where it is needed and has disturbed the site as little as possible. Regards, Steve Hussey 'The Inner Dimension' CD & 'The Inner Dimension' SDK "Never confuse information with knowledge." ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 02:12:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA24789 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:12:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA03272 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:10:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA26850; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:05:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:00:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA25948 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:00:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from harborside.com (exim@harborside.com [204.214.110.225]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA25918 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:00:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from p197.rs0.harborside.com ([204.214.111.197]) [204.214.111.197] by harborside.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0xrdpn-0006tW-00; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:58:56 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment Date: Sun, 11 Jan 98 23:05:44 -0800 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Steve Hussey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1155 >In a message dated 1/11/98 3:28:13 PM, Dona Stankus, AIA >Raleigh, NC wrote: > ><> > >I love it: another true gem of wisdom from this list. Also: "He who dies with the most toys, nevertheless still dies". ;-) Regards, Steve Hussey ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 02:12:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA24797 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:12:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA03308 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:11:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA26861; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:05:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:01:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA25969 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:00:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from harborside.com (exim@harborside.com [204.214.110.225]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA25934 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from p197.rs0.harborside.com ([204.214.111.197]) [204.214.111.197] by harborside.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0xrdpp-0006tW-00; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:58:58 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment Date: Sun, 11 Jan 98 23:05:45 -0800 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Steve Hussey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1156 Richard of R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis said that... > >NMBlues wrote: >> [snip] >> Dear Ricahard, >> [Snip] > >You are sick Dona, and because of people like you, most will never learn >to appreciate the benefit of green spaces as part of their local >environment. Well if we all spread out all over the place we'll have no greenbelts/spaces left. Conversely I don't want to look out of my bathroom window into next doors ;-) Somewhere in the middle is a solution. Small houses can be built on small lots, they can also be built on large lots. As the cost of housing rises, especially here in Portland Oregon, many families cannot afford starter homes, smaller lots with compact housing would give may families a jumping off point. What riles me isn't how big or small a lot is but how much of so many lots is wasted, Likewise with space in a house. Often so we can make a statement like 'look at me, I'm important - because I have a big house'. Most people don't need all the space they have bought, and could utilize smaller spaces with better design and save materials and limited resources. Come to Orgeon and see how much usable timber is left. Not much ;-( >Christ almighty, you AIA guys are just a bunch of dummies. So what makes an AIA member a dummy? Are only male AIA members dummies? Regards, Steve Hussey ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 05:39:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA02275 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:39:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA05638 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:38:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA01539; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:28:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA01269 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA01264 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:28:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA12038 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:33:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:33:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy11.vineyard.net(204.17.195.201) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma012035; Mon Jan 12 05:33:44 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Insurance discussion Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1157 This may be old news to the participants in this discussion (which is no longer about insurance, but rather about ecology and commerce), but a careful reading of Paul Hawken's "The Ecology of Commerce" and Herman Daly's "Beyond Growth" might provide an essential basis for this conversation. These two lay out cogent, in-depth perspectives about how our economic system could be changed from destructive to restorative. Not an easy path, but an inspiring one. It's not enough to say that the corporate world has only one goal - maximizing profit - and write it off, because there are thousands of isolated small potatoes examples that disprove this notion. And serve to show us that although profit is mostly the sole driving force, it ain't necessarily so. In Curitiba, a wonderfully inventive and progressive city in Brazil, the streets of some of the barrios were too narrow for municipal garbage trucks. The city government calculated what they would have to pay to get private haulers to pick up the garbage. Instead, they bought surplus food from local farmers with that money. The barrio residents trade their garbage for food. They haul it out themselves, and for each six kilo bag they get a bag of bananas, rice, and beans. In Holland, every car sold has, as part of its price, a fee to dissemble and recycle the entire car at the end of its useful life, and dispode of the toxic parts. The consumer pays, but the manufacturer is fully responsible for that car from its cradle to its grave, ort rather to its new cradle. Not a bad way to run a culture. Where does it come from? >From a serious dialogue between business, government, and the public that begins with a premise that all three are part of a commons and all three need to protect the integrity of the commons. Government and business both, and especially together, can be effective change agents. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 08:10:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA06692 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:10:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA00847 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:09:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04833; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:03:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:59:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA04464 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:59:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA04460 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:59:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.25.64.225] (usr2a8.rut.sover.net [206.25.64.204]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA19048; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:04:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:04:14 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: bfloyd@usit.net, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: Resources for green developers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1158 >Anyone out there with experience in this arena? Pitfalls to watch out for? >Resources available? > >Betsy Hooper >bfloyd@usit.net >Knoxville, Tennessee > Betsy, A new book has just been produced by the Rocky Mountain Institute, coauthored by Alex Wilson, entitled: Green Development, Integrating Ecology and Real Estate. It contains many case studies and examples of greener approaches to real estate development. The publisher is John Wiley & Sons. The Urban Land Institute is the largest organization of developers in the country, and has produced some surprisingly progressive material on environmental issues. I beliive its URL is: http://www.uli.org Nadav Malin Environmental Building News http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 08:30:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08230 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:30:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA05012 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:29:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA05497; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:24:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:20:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA05273 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:20:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.172]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA05267 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:20:07 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:24:41 EST To: cmuller@ncat.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Cautions with load calculations... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1159 Catherine wrote: << In doing a heat load calc., the contractor should measure your home component by component, differentiating by insulation level and component type, e.g. number of square feet of attic with no insulation, attic with R-19, walls, single pane windows, double pane windows, doors etc. The contractor or the program calculates the amount of energy lost through each of these components at "design" condition - not the most extreme outdoor temperatures you will ever experience, but a temperature at which the outdoors is warmer 97 1/2% of the time. The wild card is figuring the infiltration of the house..... >> Catherine (and list) BEWARE of other lurking "wild cards" in Manual J approaches. Many of the computerized versions DO NOT HAVE updated window performance information. While this isn't too big a problem in predominantly heating climates (as long as you aren't doing a passive solar house) it can be a HUGE problem when calculating air conditioning loads. The solar transmission characteristics of some of the more advanced glazings have changed A LOT over the past 10 years. Unfortunately, many of the calculation tools have not "kept up" with these changes. For exampe, you can have three "identically" looking windows that "appear" to have the same frame/glazing combination. HOWEVER, U-factors might range from 0.57 to 0.28 and Solar Heat Gain Coefficients might range from 0.70 to 0.29. BUT THEY LOOK THE SAME!!!! (Standard rant... ) PLEASE be careful to use updated NFRC-certified U-factor and SHCG data when doing ANY load calcs... Recent resources: "Residential Windows: A Guide to New Technologies and Energy Performance" by John Carmody, Stave Selkowitz and Lisa Heschong. 1996 W.W. Norton. 1997 ASHRAE Handbook of Fundamentals, Chapter 29. (NOT previous editions) NFRC Certified Products Directory, 1996. 301-586-NFRC. Chris Mathis MCSquared 5249 Columbia Road Columbia, MD 21044 301-596-1931 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 09:10:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09086 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:10:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA13635 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:09:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06615; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:59:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA06352 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:59:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.169]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06348 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:59:40 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1 Message-ID: <71bf554.34ba22d5@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:04:03 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Window ratings (more) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1160 All, Take care about this discussion on "ER"... is applicable solely to CANADA (and with some questions there)... In the US (where we build 10X the number of buildings as our Canadian neighbors and consume ??? times the amount of energy) we need to focus on U-factors, Solar Heat Gain Coefficients, Visible Transmittance and what performance levels are applicable to our climate and building types. Check out the newest website on the subject (and a pretty good summary of the 'Residential Windows" book) at www.efficientwindows.org Chris Mathis MCSquared 5249 Columbia Road Columbia, MD 21044 1931 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 09:16:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09199 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:16:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA14861 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:15:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07081; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:09:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:05:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06667 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:05:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06663; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:05:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25624; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:11:33 GMT (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:10:19 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: window ratings To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" cc: John Dittli , "'Paul S. Hetrick'" , "'strawbale@crest.org'" , GreenBuilding Listserver X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1161 On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > You said: "If the ER rating is below 0, the window gains more than it > loses. Values like -10 and -20 mean that it gains 10 or 20 W/m^2 (or some > such units). Make sure yuget a low-E window with a SHGF. > > John: Sorry some of this is news to me! I think you got heat loss mixed up > with heat gain, don't you think? Thanks for catching my goof up Jorg. I should have said above zero. My memory confused heating calcs (which assume -ve is a gain) with the ER standard. But, the ER does take into account conductive heat loss, frame effects, spacers, infitration, and solar gain, almost all of the relevant factors for the energy use of the window. ER's for various locations and orientations are also available from a good manufacturer. All the other criteria you mention are of course relevant, and John D should take note if he needs this level of detail, or if he has the need or the information to act on these criteria. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 09:55:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA11125 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:55:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA24145 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:54:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08871; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:49:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:44:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA08381 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:44:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08376 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:44:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28502 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:50:48 GMT (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:49:34 EST From: John Straube Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: economics and environment (fwd) To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1162 John, I would like to carry on this conversation if you are willing and actually care to hear another point of view, since I am wiling to hear a good argument that suply and demand curves dont work, the pricing resouces restricts or encourages use, etc. I have had this debate with many people. The problem in most of your rebuttal/comments was that you assume that we cannot price things like pollution. At the risk of starting a whole new thread, I will start from am extreme example. It may be difficult to stomach, but we aso put a price on your life. When designing a building, the codes typically value a death or serious at about $2 million (this varies all over the place). Before you react with outrage, what would you have us do? Consider life beyond cost? Then I could not build, becuase it is impossible to build a building that will never fail. But, if I put a price on life (which varies with societies values, and is higher in peace than war, in western countries than eastern, etc.), I can design each building to the same level of safety and not waste resources on one building while wasting (e.g valuing at $100000) lives in another. This is a very rough, phlisophical discussion so dont get hung up on the last pennies of the numbers I use. Similarily, by pricing pollution properly, resources are brought to bear: land (economic term for all physical capital), labour,capital($), orginization, technology, to solve the problem. As it is, we do not solve the pollution problem, and we hope that we can convince industry to change, by laws, which by inference price some pollution and not others, or moral suasion, which does not work for most people with a billion dollars to lose. A debate in Waterloo Region actually involved recycling. This act makes people feel good, but from an environmental economics point of view, reduce and reuse are more sutainable acts. In fact, I helped show that the rural collection of recycled glass bottles used about ten times the energy that it saved. We did this through a look through the operating costs (which were less than the revenue of th glass), and an energy analysis, where Btu's repalced dollars. We showed that the same resources could be employed recycling paper and aluminum with much greater benefit. A clear example of market economics at work. But we had to price the resouces appropriately to reflect the energy/envronmental impacts. The Rocky Mountain Institute has had a huge impact on the energy consumption of the US (and Canada a bit) by using economics to show industry and consumers where they are wasting dollars and damaging the environment. I think they have had a great positive impact, and this I beleve is due to their use of economics. The North American forestry industry is not sustainable, not because of market economics, but because the US Government subsidizes the cost of logging and does not charge the cost of erosion, etc.. In recent Congressional hearings it was shown that the forestry service actually provided logging roads at a loss even after collecting their meagre stumpage fees. My aunt lives in a village in Germany were the count has owned thousands of acres of trees for at least three hundred years. He lives by logging, and from the wildlife. The number of trees, and the nuber of acres of trees has increased in the last 40 years, and the business is run proftably, providing extra revenue by people paying to hike through the woods and camp. Why is this possible? becuase the cost of pollution/erosion/etc was incorporated in the price, and so it became economical to maintain and cultivate tress, never use to clear cutting (it is too expensive he says, the impact on the next crop of trees,is to high). I have seen market economics run wild in places like the Eastern block (especially Romania after the revolution of 91) and Cambodia (2 years ago after the UN pulled out). But, when I am there I see how what is employed is not a proper pricing structure. and hence poor people starve, and rich barons rape the land. This is not an economic system probelm, it is the problem of the people who set the pricing, implicitly today in Western counteries, and I hope explicitly in the future so that your values and mine can be used to determine what those values/prices are. I cannot see all things, and I cannot control all process, through simple or complex laws. This is why command economies like Russia's failed. I have no more faith that you or I can become benevolent dictators of econmomic correctness, and would prefer to leave the complexity to a proven and democratic system -- market economics, properly tuned. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 10:22:36 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12517 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:22:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA01524 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:21:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10788; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:16:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:09:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10100 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:09:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from tower.ti.com (tower.ti.com [192.94.94.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10094 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:09:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from reliant.micro.ti.com ([158.218.63.15]) by tower.ti.com (8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA28128 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:13:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from admin2.micro.ti.com (postmaster@admin2.micro.ti.com [158.218.63.17]) by reliant.micro.ti.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01706 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:12:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from aspc0662.micro.ti.com ([158.218.60.160]) by admin2.micro.ti.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-42073U700L2S100) with SMTP id AAA7397; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:12:29 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980112091626.006bb00c@pcmail.micro.ti.com> X-Sender: aeyn@pcmail.micro.ti.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:16:26 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Alan J. Eynon" Subject: GBlist: Recycling housing Cc: "Alan J. Eynon" In-Reply-To: <199801082226.RAA12429@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1163 Hi all, I need a quick pointer to green designers / builders / realtors(?) in the Dallas area. I'll be moving in a few months, and - as it's unlikely that I can obtain the necessary credentials (or time!) to design a place myself - I want to give the search process as much of a head-start as possible. I'd also appreciate any advice on the feasibility of retrofitting existing tract homes. I may end up in a position where I can't afford to build new after sinking the bulk of my money into renting (or owning) a "temporary" accommodation. So I may have to buy a place that I can live in while reworking it for greater efficiency. Has anyone else had this experience? Does it pay to refit a house that wasn't designed for energy economy to begin with? Or is it better to invest in the greater savings returned by a better-designed new place? Many thanks, Alan Software Development Systems, Stafford, Texas Instruments, +1 281-274-2943 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "For it is a habit of mankind to entrust to careless hope what they long for, and to use reason arbitrarily to thrust aside what they do not fancy." -- Thucydides, _The Peloponnesian War_ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 10:46:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14047 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:46:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA09750 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:45:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13014; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:40:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:34:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11801 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:34:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11783 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:33:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA08983 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:38:17 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 00057305; Mon, 12 Jan 98 09:27:07 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:37:27 -0600 Message-ID: <00057305.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Timber frame affordability To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="RFC822 message headers" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Content-Disposition: inline; filename="RFC822 message headers" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1164 Fred - Interesting point. I find it very unfortunate that timber framing has developed the way it has.....the emphasis on large(admittedly beautiful) homes. There are a couple ways that timber frame homes could be made more affordable: a) Replace hand joinery with steel and lag bolts.(Hand joinery accounts for up to 25% of the cost of a timber frame.); b) Do not over-engineer. With modifications in design, and judicious use of box-beams to replace large timbers, an attractive frame can be designed without resorting to the huge timbers traditionally used...Alex Wade was an early proponent of "right-sizing" timber frames, to eliminate the unnecessaryily large timbers being used- check out his books. Hope this helps. - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 20:31:05 EST From: F Unger Subject: GBlist: re: Mortgages Greenbuilders, A few years ago, I had a great opportunity to help Benson Woodworking Company explore several avenues to bring their services and homes to a broader market. The key at several levels was the "affordability issue." They have lists of thousands of people who would love to live in one of their beautiful, durable, environmentally friendly timber frame homes. The problem was most folks couldn't afford them at a price Benson's could build them for profitably at the time............... Keep smiling, Fred Unger Subject: greenbuilding-digest V2 #13 Author: greenbuilding@crest.org at Internet Date: 1/10/98 9:28 PM Received: from us.teltech.com (198.174.238.254) by mimegate.gen.teltech.com with SMTP (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005709F; Sat, 10 Jan 98 20:25:00 -0600 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA03584 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 20:35:56 -0600 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08219; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:30:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:28:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07952 for greenbuilding-digest-outgoing; Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:28:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 21:28:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801110228.VAA07952@solstice.crest.org> From: owner-greenbuilding-digest@crest.org (greenbuilding-digest) To: greenbuilding-digest@crest.org Subject: greenbuilding-digest V2 #13 Reply-To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding-digest@crest.org Precedence: bulk ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 10:48:06 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14089 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:48:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA10236 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:46:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13300; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:41:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:35:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11983 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:35:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11967 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:35:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id K[G00310; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:39:19 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: sliding glass doors Message-ID: <19980112.113538.6967.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-4,7,9,12-14,16-22 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:39:19 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1165 Hi, I have just been approached by someone with a problem and need your suggestions for a solution. The client has a condo on the 8th floor, facing east (the ocean) The condo has two sets of sliding glass doors that open to a balcony. Both sets, when the wind blows, have problem with an annoying whistling noise. One problem seems to be that there is no gasket or any other sort of sealer on the bottom track. It might be significant to note that both sets of doors are separated from the inside by an 8 inch sill to prevent water being blown in. What might be the cause of this noise and what possible solutions can be found? Thanks for any ideas. Beverly A. Weiter Environs Interiors Inc. Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 12:07:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17114 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:07:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA05533 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:06:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18351; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:01:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:56:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17856 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:56:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17844 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:56:01 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <320ffcb.34ba4a5b@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:52:42 EST To: cdodge@interport.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Septic Systems Literature Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1166 Note the conversation of late on this list regarding dry (composting) toilets. This means you need only a septic for grey water (depending on the code and individual people involved where you live). For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 12:09:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17161 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:09:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06050 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:08:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18504; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:58:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18011 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:58:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17999 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:58:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id LAA0000021488; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:03:16 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980112170537.006bed88@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:05:37 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Timber frame affordability Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1167 ..Alex Wade was an early > proponent of "right-sizing" timber frames, to eliminate the > unnecessaryily large timbers being used- check out his books. > > Hope this helps. > > - Patrick Pierquet > ppierquet@teltech.com Alex Wade was my 'god father' when I built a timber frame addition to a log cabin a dozen years ago. His book "Guide to Affordable Houses" was chock full of innovative way-ahead-of-time ideas that remain relevant today. I got in touch with him a year or so ago and find he is on to other things now, saving a light house I think. I'm sorry he isn't a member of this list. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 12:42:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA19589 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:42:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA16304 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:41:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20326; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:36:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:31:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19806 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:31:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.167]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19802 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:31:15 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <1801ba53.34ba5295@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:27:47 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Help on Roofover Details Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1168 I need some help on what may be a very basic matter to most of the people on this list but is a problem for us. About a year ago we bought two adjacent parcels, each with a home on it. One has a lovely, creatively designed and very well made frame house where, of course, we live. On the other parcel sits a 15-year old mobile home, ultra cheap model, double wide. That is being developed as the office for my permaculture center. Needless to say, we bought for the land and the mobile home was just something that made it cost more. But I am a strong believer in retrofit and using up what you have before moving on, and I'm pretty convinced that the best course is to make the mobile home last as long as I do. One of the incredible costs savings on this model was to eliminate ANY roof overhang.--This in a region where hurricanes are regular events and driving rain frequent. We have leaking in some windows, mainly on the west side of the building where we get regular strong winds (weak winds, medium sized winds, etc.) However it seems more than that. We are also getting leaking around the door on the east side. (The building is rounghy on a north-south axis, with very heavy shade on the west side. These giant oaks swung the purchase decision as far aswe are concerned.) OK, judging from the layers of silicone caulking around some windows, particularly the one with the worst leak, I'd say that patch-up has been tried and failed. After debating on a roof over (wife's favorite option) and added overhang (my original first choice), I've decided that my wife is probably right as usual. This decision is still open to added info but it seems a roofover is our best bet at the moment. I am not impressed with the present roof, which is clearly a slightly heavier grade of aluminum foil than we use over the Christmas turkey when it goes in the oven. I weigh 250 lbs more or less and like to be able to fix things. At the moment I'd be nervous if one of our chickens landed on the roof. We want something tougher, that I can walk on if we need to repair or clear it. Since there are very large oaks hanging huge branches over the roof, and since old oaks shed branches regularly, the roofover needs to withstand a 5-inch diameter branch dropping 20 feet. Anything more than that, though it will happen, is uncommon and I only need to be able to repair the roof in that case. Second requirement, of course is waterproof. Third requirement is that the roof lend to easy collection of rain water, meaning that it is flexible enough in construction so that I can make the kind of gutters that shed debris yet harvest water. This I suppose, is the greenest requirement as we will buy or build (undecided) cisterns and use roof water to the fullest possible extent. Florida is in a situation of extreme overuse and misuse and mishandling of its once abundant fresh water supplies, a problem to which I do not wish to contribute. No, I intend not to contribute to the problem, it is an intent, not merely a wish. The fourth requirement is that the roof be reasonaly secure against hurricanes. It can't just blow away because the wind is 100 mph. We also could get tornados (FL is 3rd in the US in torandos per unit area), but there is no defense against them except pure luck, not in high water table country. The fifth requirement is that the roofover be likely to soften the blow if one of these giant oaks is blown down entirely. I do not expect to salvage either the roof over or the building in such a case, but I'd like to salvage anyone who might be inside. (Hopefully, we will have evacuated everyone to the frame house which can better withstand such an impact. We are talking about oaks three to five feet in diameter and 50 to 75 feet high with spans, where not crowded, as broad as their height. Unfortunately, from the point of view of softening impact, they do not retain lower branches and so the first branch to strike the building might be 2 feet in diameter. The sixth requirement is that it be termite and decay resistant. To me, that means steel or iron posts (maybe iron pipe?) set in concrete footings and attached securely to form a frame. I'd like to try ferrocement but have no idea how to go about coating the underside of the roof in place. I doubt that I could move ferrocement panels if I assembled them on the ground. I strongly dislike having heavy equipment on my soil and would not do it for something of this sort, so any kind of crane is out. That implies the seventh requirement, which is that I am able to build this myself. I am not a super builder, mainly because I'd rather be doing almost anything else except mucking with cars and their disgusting grease. However generally if the task does not require specialized tools and years of experience, I can do it if I have to. Needless to say, if I can get it over with quickly, so much the better. I am open to any and all suggestions, especially references to books that I can actually find that will keep me on track. Again, if there is a way to work this into experience in building with ferrocement, this would be helpful, as we plan on using it for other things here. (Fibro cement also, but not for roofs and not until our bamboo gets more rambunctuous.) Cost is always an issue. I don't want the roof to be worth more than the house, and that isn't a whole lot in my book, except that it is all the building I will ever have in this spot. I know that this isn't sexy like making (uncleanable) roofs out of PV or fancy computations of heating and cooling loads and mysterious acronyms, but we really don't have enough information that we feel confident to succeed. It is too big a job to fake it and hope for luck. We can't afford that financially and I wouldn't risk non-renewable resources on something like that anyway. So consider the lowly retrofit, if you will, and maybe you have the info that will be just what we need to spare the waste of the resources that went into building this (admittedly crappy) mobile home. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 12:45:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA19642 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:45:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA17345 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:44:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20737; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:39:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:35:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20165 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20151 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:34:53 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:35:23 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: going to market Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1169 Chuck Hinckley asks "How do you get your message to the market place? How do you influence the consumers 'Dream Home" image?" Chuck, Invest in some decent photograghy of your best work and then take your story to the local press. The home and real estate sections of local papers and regional magazines are incredibly boring. So are most of the houses on the market. You've got something interesting to sell and an interesting story to share. The press's job is to dig up interesting stories. If the interesting local stories show up on their desk in a well prepared press packet with nice visuals, their job is pretty easy. Don't worry about selling sustainable housing worldwide. Sell the next couple jobs for your own company, make them interesting and publicize the hell out of them. Free publicty isn't very tough to get if you look at it from the editors perspective and make their job real easy for them. My little three man company has been able to get our work on cover of three glossy magazines and into numerous other newspaper and magazine articles. If you figure out what you want the PR for and go ask for it, you will probably get it simply because you aren't doing the same boring stuff as everyone else. We also use paid advertising. We've been advertising energy efficiency for a long time. Next week I'm going to start advertising my current customer's idea about guarunteed 20% return on investment tax free for 30 years. I'm going to print that concept in real bold type in the little color Real Estate books that they give away at donut shops and real estate offices. I've sold four spec houses and a couple custom jobs through those little books. For visuals I'll draw them in with a picture of an attractive but fairly ordinary looking energy efficient home we've built and a water view from a lot I have for sale. Nothing very radical, but it seems to keep my phone ringing. As for the dream home concept: all the marketing gurus are saying that the dream is changing for the big buldge of home buyers called the baby boom generation. As we are getting older and more able to afford what we want, it appears we are less interested in sexy consumer status stuff like jacuzzis with built in liquor cabinets and more interested in having friends, good community and in simply staying alive and healthy. This is good news for folks on the Greenbuilder list. I heard a statistic somewhere that expert studies are attributing something like 50% of allergy and asthma problems in North America to unhealthy indoor air quality. Terry and others on this list can probably cite references for those kind of statistics. Maybe the new Dream Home concept is something as simple as a home that won't make you sick living in it. Eliminate all those bills from the allergist and maybe your customer can afford that jacuzzi too. There was an interesting headline story coming out of some home furnishings and gadgets show in the AOL news yesterday. The big interest is in high tech vacuum cleaners and other appliances that remove allergens and pollutants from the air in homes. Now this is a trade show pushing wall size TV's, vegematics, electrically operated lazyboy chairs and other useless consumer garbage, not some show for environmentalist nuts like us. More and more people are becoming aware of the issues that many of us have spent our entire adult lives studying. The time is ripe to start benefitting society and ourselves from what we have learned. Get out there and sell your stuff Chuck. Have fun, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 13:08:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA20155 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:08:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA24756 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:07:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21968; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:02:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:58:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21542 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:58:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail11.digital.com (mail11.digital.com [192.208.46.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21538 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:58:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from us1rmc.bb.dec.com (us1rmc.bb.dec.com [16.57.16.6]) by mail11.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.5/1.0/WV) with SMTP id MAA07501 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:58:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ricks.enet by us1rmc.bb.dec.com (5.65/rmc-17Jan97) id AA02043; Mon, 12 Jan 98 12:47:25 -0500 Message-Id: <9801121747.AA02043@us1rmc.bb.dec.com> Received: from ricks.enet; by us1rmc.enet; Mon, 12 Jan 98 12:58:06 EST Date: Mon, 12 Jan 98 12:58:06 EST From: He who toys with the most dies wins To: greenbuilding@crest.org Apparently-To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: SIPs, SUBS, ATTIC HEAT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1170 > And, perhaps this is dumb, but would I be wasting my time trying to > devise a system to pump the heated air in my attic down into the house > during the > winter, to supplement the furnace? After seeing a product advertised that was meant to collect heat from an unheated attic in the winter to blow into the house, I looked into it a little. I didn't do any calculations like I should have, but my guess is that you end up losing heat overall. My attic at the time had 2 small gable vents and white shingles. I put a temperature probe in my attic and found that I had peak attic temperatures of about 100 degF on sunny days where the outside temperature was in the low 40's. The problem is getting more warmth into the house than leaks back out. The time during which there was heat to remove from the attic was probably no more than about 5 hours. The rest of the day you would most likely have warm house air leaking back into the attic through the same duct. The stack pressure driving the air leak could be pretty high. /carl homeowner ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 13:39:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA21955 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:39:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA03754 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:38:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24027; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:32:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:28:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23226 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:27:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23219 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:27:57 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NzX19481; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:32:13 EST To: Permacltur@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:28:54 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Help on Roofover Details Message-ID: <19980112.123841.3638.2.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <1801ba53.34ba5295@aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,4-38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1171 Good luck on getting any advice on roofs. You would have better luck starting a political/rhetorical debate on ecology and economy. The information you would get would be absolutely useless but there would be plenty of it. I submitted a similar request last year and got no response whatsoever. Roofs must be over their heads. (chuckle) Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:27:47 EST Permacltur writes: >I need some help on what may be a very basic matter to most of the >people on >this list but is a problem for us. About a year ago we bought two >adjacent >parcels, each with a home on it. One has a lovely, creatively >designed and >very well made frame house where, of course, we live. On the other >parcel >sits a 15-year old mobile home, ultra cheap model, double wide. That >is being >developed as the office for my permaculture center. Needless to say, >we >bought for the land and the mobile home was just something that made >it cost >more. > >But I am a strong believer in retrofit and using up what you have >before >moving on, and I'm pretty convinced that the best course is to make >the mobile >home last as long as I do. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 13:40:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA21978 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:40:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA04122 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24264; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:34:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:29:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23298 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:29:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23294 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:29:01 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NzV19481; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:32:13 EST To: ewestbrook@topher.net Cc: AKATZ@aec.ncsu.edu, khassan@mnsinc.com, hvac@together.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:09:27 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: heat load -Reply Message-ID: <19980112.123840.3638.0.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <199801120535.XAA01004@mail.topher.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-11,13-73 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1172 What is hilarious about this discussion thread is that most HVAC contractors (including mine) will (in one form or another) tell you to go to hell if you ask them to calculate heat/loss in a structure. If they are really polite they will refer you to an architect. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:35:13 -0600 (CST) Elena Westbrook writes: >At 10:25 AM 1/11/98 -0500, Arnie Katz wrote: >>I agree with Tom Anderson (see Below) that residential hvac >contractors >rarely do heat loss/heat gain >>calculations. My experience, however, is that the rules of thumb they >use >are substantially off. > >We (and our builder) had a little trouble with the geothermal >contractor on >this issue. They kept wanting to size the unit based just on our >square >footage. But, since Paul (my husband and the house designer) had >already >calculated the heat load in great detail, they backed off when he >showed >them the calculations and gave us the size we wanted. > >But when our builder when to do another well-insulated, passive-solar >house >for a client who *isn't* a mechanical engineer, they ran into a bigger >argument. The builder couldn't calculate heat loads, but knew that >they >didn't need 8 tons of A/C for this house, which is what the hvac guys >were >insisting on. They solved the problem by asking Paul to calculate the >actual >heat load, which came out to about half the hvac contractor's guess >(demand?). I haven't followed up to see if they've quit arguing yet, >though. ;-) > >The point is this: Unless you can find a contractor who actually >calculates >heat loads (hahahahahah), get an independent calculation of the actual >load. > >Someone pointed out to me (on this list? I can't remember) that >oversizing >units covers a multitude of sins. Bad ductwork, stuck dampers, etc. >just >aren't noticeable to the average homeowner if the unit is twice the >size it >needs to be. Unless, of course, you're in Florida and mold starts >growing on >the walls because the A/C doesn't run long enough to dehumidify the >building. > >Best Regards, > >Elena Westbrook, ELS >WordWright Communications >EWestbrook@topher.net > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 14:01:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA22506 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:01:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA10013 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:00:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25951; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:55:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:51:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25491 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:51:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from xipe-totec.cacr.caltech.edu (root@xipe-totec.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25476 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:51:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from angle.cacr.caltech.edu (angle.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.72]) by xipe-totec.cacr.caltech.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA23018 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:56:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801121856.KAA23018@xipe-totec.cacr.caltech.edu> X-Sender: mac@delilah X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:56:34 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: mac@cacr.caltech.edu (b. lamprecht) Subject: GBlist: Compressing the Footprint Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA25478 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1173 Based on the current threads of the size of houses, I thought I would share some brief excerpts from a brochure I wrote for a 1997 tour titled RICHARD NEUTRA: COMPRESSING THE FOOTPRINT, a tour looking at Neutra's small houses and exploring his ideas on land use. This was a tour under the auspices of the Society of Architectural Historians, Southern California Chapter, for which I am a board member (and web site editor): ``QUESTION: HOW MUCH SPACE DOES IT TAKE TO LEAD THE GOOD LIFE? Apparently more and more. Writing in his book Urban Control: the Ecology of Fear, Mike Davis notes that ‘‘the 1990 Census showed that metropolitan Los Angeles has the greatest discrepancy in the nation between household size and home size.’’ We are now frantically trying to regulate ‘‘mansionization,’’ whether in the San Gabriel Mountains, the suburbs of Seattle, or the deserts outside of Phoenix. That, as well as ‘‘maxing out the footprint.’’ Richard Neutra’s European heritage may have created a mindset to create houses with a smaller footprint, but that sensibility was perfectly grafted onto his new milieu: ‘‘A new, thinly spread, traffic-crazy town such as Los Angeles is threatened with a different kind of disaster -- something like elephantiasis -- endless outward expansion and dragging bulk of little vital advantage,’’ he wrote presciently in Survival Through Design. He envisioned a much more compact yet much more serene urban fabric. He argued that architecture could respond to a fundamental human need for nature while simultaneously being more efficient and resourceful vis-a-vis city services. ‘ However, those gains would only be meaningful if the architecture worked harder, provided more opportunities to communicate with gardens and air and sun and wind. A house was only truly functional if it created greater opportunities for the sensual meeting of human and his or her environment. Space, for Neutra, was not a formal abstract but physiological ‘stuff’ to be kneaded and mined. Geometries for the body were not Euclidean but ‘‘up and down, right and left, forward and backward, far and near.” (U.S.A. Tomorrow, Oct. 54, p. 75.) His was a subtle message: ‘‘One of the most pressing architectural problems of the future, it seems to me, is to create physio-psychological room enclosures instead of achieving privacy by empty geometricity.’’ Neutra never apologized for using a post-and-beam vocabulary filled with right angles, however. It was not only economical, reflecting the realities of materials and building trades, but in his hands was a plastic grammar, mutable and dependent on the ‘‘mystery and realities of the site,’’ as he titled his small, tenderly written book. The vocabulary was a means to an end -- the habitat. Instead he talked about the organic quality of Italian hill towns achieved by using similar materials and forms over a long time, refining a vocabulary with regard to both its immediate site and larger context: ‘‘ ... nobody ever seems to have lamented the monotony or uniformity of a tree, but our neighborhoods are found in need of ... ‘relieved of monotony:’ Artificial relief [is] sought in the diversity of the elements rather than in the comprehensive framework, and so each house in new suburbs [gets] its particular skin-deep style ...” On the VDL Research House II (1963, Richard and Dion Neutra) and its predecessor VDL Research House I built on the same site in 1932, which burned down in 1962: Perhaps Neutra could have been referring to this house, studio and guest house, three activities co-habiting a lot 60’ x 70, when he wrote in 1951: “Most of us cannot afford a house of large area. Our self-service homes cannot well excel in impressive square footage. But they can and should in flexibility; multiple use should take advantage of every square foot, as the hours of the day pass and introduce one function after another. Every lot has its daily travel and passage under the sun, and we are on board and travel along.’’ I had the opportunity to spend two summers in the VDL House, and I anticipated a house that would be very stern, very hard, very dictatorial. As time elapsed I realized that the house accommodated and even anticipated whomever I wished to be at a particular moment: very public, or very private. Indeed, there is a gentleness, a kind of alert humility to the house that ennobles the idea of a building as a neutral canvas for human endeavor, never its arbiter. In fact, the word ‘‘house,’’ with its embedded notions of solid barriers between indoors and outdoors, lies awkwardly on the reality of this habitat. Rather, the VDL enfolds you in nature, a tree house with layered balconies, pungent with the sharp smell of eucalyptus planted so long ago. From the vantage point of the penthouse’s built-in seating, the roof water blends indistinguishably into the tranquil waters of das Silber See—the Silver Lake—beyond. '' I learn something every day from the GB list. Thank you all. barbara lamprecht ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 14:19:00 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23288 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:19:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15235 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:17:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27061; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:12:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:08:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26633 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:08:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26627 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:08:23 -0500 (EST) From: IdahoCFM Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:09:31 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: UBC on-line? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1174 Wondering if any of you know of a location of the UBC (building code, not the university) on line? I've done my due dilligence through the common search engines, with no results. Anybody know of a site I could find it on? Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 15:01:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA25086 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:01:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA28508 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:00:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29114; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:55:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:49:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28721 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:49:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28715 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:49:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OoG02124; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:53:29 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:33:51 -0900 Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #16 Message-ID: <19980112.105112.-26810.0.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199801121735.MAA20208@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-7 From: woodeneagle@juno.com (R. Scott Waterman) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1175 If anyone is interested I can give you the names of some Japanese books on making using of small spaces. Read one and you will be amazed at the ideas.> Steve, Put your list up, I would love to see it. Scott Waterman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 15:36:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA27651 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:36:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA09703 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:35:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01306; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:30:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:25:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00807 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:25:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00800 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:25:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA10836; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:30:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:30:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from csy4.vineyard.net(199.232.92.64) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id smaa10696; Mon Jan 12 15:29:44 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980112.113538.6967.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: Re: GBlist: sliding glass doors Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1176 >Hi, > >I have just been approached by someone with a problem and need your >suggestions for a solution. > >The client has a condo on the 8th floor, facing east (the ocean) The >condo has two sets of sliding glass doors that open to a balcony. Both >sets, when the wind blows, >have problem with an annoying whistling noise. One problem seems to be >that there >is no gasket or any other sort of sealer on the bottom track. It might >be significant to note that both sets of doors are separated from the >inside by an 8 inch sill to prevent >water being blown in. > >What might be the cause of this noise and what possible solutions can be >found? Hi Beverly A clever carpenter with a problem solving bent and 25+ years experience will solve it in an hour, just like a good mechanic gets rid of the annoying rattle in the front of your car. Finding someone with those qualifications is the trick. Good luck - John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 16:12:48 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA29085 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:12:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA20524 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:11:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03247; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:06:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:01:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02719 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:01:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02715 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:01:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.107.64] (usrts4p64.port.net [207.237.107.64]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA04910 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:06:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801122106.QAA04910@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: block/roof tile machine Date: Mon, 12 Jan 98 16:09:40 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1177 Twila wrote >An entire >>education can be had from this list. Well said! As an almost 50 year old I am constantly amazed at the efficiences of time and energy this list ( and the internet in general) has provided to people, like me, in search of a better way to build. My heart felt thanks to us all! Especially to the really!! knowledgable people on this list who so freely share their hard won insights. Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 16:15:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA29160 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:15:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA21395 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:14:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03645; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:09:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:04:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02960 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:04:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.169]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02945 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:04:34 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:53:09 EST To: sbtauto@JUNO.COM, Permacltur@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Help on Roofover Details Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1178 Steve's right. Roofs are over most of our heads. Mine doesn't even leak. A few solutions for a low pitch roof like a double wide that I'd recommend. Torch applied modified bitumen is my favorite for flat roofs but needs torch application, thus special equipment and you risk burning the building down if you don't know what you are doing. It also takes a bit of skill to get it right. If you hire someone that does the work all the time, it will probably be done quickly and well. Perhaps you can do what you do well to earn some money and pay them and then sleep easier at night knowing your roof won't leak. It will probably take a pro less than a quarter the time it takes you the first time out, and they already own the expensive equipment you will need to rent. Do the math. Unless you find working with hot goopey chemicals to be a particularly rewarding experience, what's the point of having to do everything yourself? EPDM rubber roofing also works well and is a bit easier for do it yourself types. Don't cheap out on the perimeter hardware or on the underlayment. Unless you do the prep work right, the membrane won't work. Any good commercial roof supply place should stock both systems and be able to give you some pointers and handbooks on installation. Are these materials ecologically groovy? I doubt it. But they are excellent at keeping water out. I suppose you could try making the first thatched double wide in the neighborhood, but sometimes it's better to just go with the flow. Another solution is to build a pitched roof over the existing structure, then apply whatever roofing material that works and is popular in your area. The advantage of this solution is that carpenters do the stuff every day and the building will look a lot better than your standard double wide mobile home when you are done. We're doing a job like that for a farmer in town right now. As for the window leaks, etc., that could be window, siding or roof overhang problems. Figure it out before investing in the roof. Can't think of much that's political, rhetorical or absolutely useless to add, so I guess I'll sign off. Stay dry, Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 16:19:04 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA29629 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:19:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA22294 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:17:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03995; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:12:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:08:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA03491 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:08:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03476 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:08:11 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:10:20 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re roofing the double wide Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1179 One last idea on roofing that double wide mobile home. Rather than investing a fortune in real exotic roofing and structural retrofits so that the thing can withstand hurricanes and huge trees falling on it, you might consider approaching it the way your neighbors probably do. Use a typical cost effective roof to keep the water out and buy some homeowners insurance in case you get hit by a hurricane. I doubt if the building is really worth making hurricane proof. Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 16:33:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA00726 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:33:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA26649 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:31:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA04753; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:26:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:22:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04394 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:21:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04390 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:21:57 -0500 (EST) From: TBren46501 Message-ID: <4f1d5b95.34ba8746@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:12:30 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: small spaces - profit motive Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1180 In a message dated 1/12/98 2:09:53 AM, you wrote: << The problem is the cramming part: most developers are motivated soley by profit which compels expediency. I have never yet seen or lived in an American apartment that used space effectively.>> Hi folks, I have seen and heard it said, and said myself many times that most developers or corporations are motivated solely by profit. Reflecting on it, I have never met anyone who was solely motivated by profit. Even the people I have met who are compulsively, uncontrollably obsessed with financial or material gain are complex, multi-faceted, irrational humans. I've pre-emptively closed many doors by believing they were in fact solely motivated by profit. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 16:41:06 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA00902 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:41:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA28908 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:39:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA05265; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:34:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:30:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04959 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:30:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04954 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:30:24 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <80bd9931.34ba8c73@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:34:42 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Fwd: Re: GBlist: re roofing the double wide Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_884640881_boundary" Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1181 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_884640881_boundary Content-ID: <0_884640881@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII An add on, we do have insurance, of course, which doesn't mean that we want to piss resources away and get paid for it. I'm assuming that on the greenbuilding list I don't have to explain this position in detail. --part0_884640881_boundary Content-ID: <0_884640881@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: Permacltur Return-path: To: FUnger@aol.com Subject: Re: GBlist: re roofing the double wide Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:32:21 EST Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/12/98 4:16:30 PM, you wrote: <> Apparently I wasn't clear, Fred. I don't expect the building itself to be hurricane proof, though it will not blow away. I don't want the roof over to blow away in a hurricane either. The issue is people inside getting out alive. It is rather like the bumpers on newer model cars that in the process of being destroyed by an impact, save the occupant from destruction. I have no confidence that this flimsy structure of glorified cardboard, aluminimum foil and tootpicks will withstand any serious blow. The roof is scarred and the repair marks obvious where smallish six-inch diameter branches h ave fallen on it. No, life insurance is not the answer. Ferrocement is not way out, it just may be difficult when you can't get under the roof--normally the mortar is applied to both sides simultaneously. There is a technique called scaffolding, a strange use (in my limited experience) of the word, where a backstop is provided to enable all the mortar to be pushed through from one side. I can visualize doing this on a vertical wall, but not on one pitched so much toward the horizontal. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html --part0_884640881_boundary-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 17:11:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA01593 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA07895 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:10:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06743; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:05:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:01:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA06411 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:00:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06407 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:00:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (sasc8-145.flash.net [209.30.91.145]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA07171; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:05:57 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34BA95F9.D7E45915@flash.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:15:21 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rjmoore@ampsc.com CC: betsy hooper & buddy floyd , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment References: <199801101429.JAA05702@transfer.usit.net> <34B7CAF5.AF8@ampsc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1182 Arjay wrote: > betsy hooper & buddy floyd wrote: > > > > It seems to me that in order to effect change we need to intervene as far up > > the economic "food chain" as possible. In my case, I live in an area where > > suburban sprawl is eating up the landscape at a pehnomenal rate. While I > > have no illusions of this phenomenon slowing down short of an economic > > disaster, my thought is that I could enter the arena as a "Green" developer. > > I am an architect, but have no experience in the real estate arena. Still, > > it seems to me that there are enough concerned people out there without the > > time or inclination to build their own "green" homes, that this could some > > how be a useful service. > > > > Anyone out there with experience in this arena? Pitfalls to watch out for? > > Resources available? > > > > Betsy Hooper > > bfloyd@usit.net > > Knoxville, Tennessee > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > I have watched the progressions of development trends over the last 30 > years, as well as being principally involved as a construction general > contractor and land developer. I have the following to offer; > > The solution to everyone's problems concerning the disappearances of > 'green spaces' will be found by increasing the minimum sizes for lots, > acreages,and all of the land subdivision classifications, to a minium of > acreages in rural landscapes, and amalgamation of smaller lots in urban > landscapes, It has been shown repeatedly that human occupancy, similar > to animal occupancy, requires a certain amount of 'green space' to > maintain a healthy occupancy, so make the minium sizes of land for > occupancy large enough so that human occupancy can persist. There is > also a need to increase the minimum sizes of all living units, houses, > apartments, condominiums, etc., and the components of the units, ie. > bedrooms must be 12' x 12' not 8' x 8',....... the trend of cramming 1 > and 2 people into 400 sq. ft. units has to end, the trend of cramming > 1000 people into an acre of city land has to end, etc. > > The population must be spread out over the landscapes, not stacked and > crammed into concentrated areas, as our cities, muncipalities, etc. have > become already. > > This will also increase the awareness of the population of the > importance and beauty of the landscape resources, and serve as a > constant reminding environment of that which is vital to the continuing > safe and healthy occupancy of that land resource of ours. > > two cents. > > Richard. > > R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis > Indoor Air Environment Specialists > Restoration and Remediation Services > Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. > Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ Well, Arjay, Maybe I missed something along the way, but the approach of enlarging the lots and houses just sounds too good to be true. Who's going to pay for all those big houses and lots? Sounds to me like we could be exacerbating the problem of distance (economic AND geographic) between the haves and the have-nots. In this case, the have-nots could be the folks struggling along on an $80k per year income. Perhaps we might also wait until teleportation is perfected so that Scotty can beam us all to and from work. A lucky few today can work on-line from their homes or participate in a cottage industry, but most still have to make the commute. I personally detest urban sprawl and am disgusted with the results of "progress" on my home town (San Antonio, TX). Someday I imagine the "I-35 corridor" from San Antonio to Dallas will resemble much of the Atlantic coast with the subdivisions and shopping malls punctuated by car lots and fast food joints. The burgeoning casino industry may be the only eye-relief. That said, I fear that dedicating more acreage per person for living space (at least the way we do it now) will only add air time to urban flight. Even if we hurry up with our Zero Emission Vehicle program, I certainly don't want to spend more and more of my life sitting in a ZEV or in some form of public transportation. Larry Stivers Victim and attempted carrier of arborophilia ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 17:19:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA02090 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:19:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA10055 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:18:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07253; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:12:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:08:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA06875 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:08:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06871 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:08:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id RRA03512; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:11:40 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: strawboss94: Re: GBlist: Help on Roofover Details Message-ID: <19980112.160735.2623.3.strawboss94@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,28-30,32-146 From: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:11:40 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1183 x Now where exactly are you? Anyway, re: the retro. Might I suggest doing a free standing roof of the post and beam type over the trailer but not attached to it. As I wrote recently, a neighbor had a single wide over which he added a 4 on 12 pitch freestanding pole barn type roof (purchased trusses) extending several feet in front and back. Much later he added a porch on the front then the back. Eventually he enclosed the front porch and proceced to replace the trailer with a pier footing floor room by room and no one passing by ever would know. He still pays taxes on a trailer. Anyway you could do the porch and at some point even pull the trailer out intact and finish with a strawbale or other low tech eco friendly permament type building on a pay as you go plan. It would also give you the added benefit of working out of the weather and at your own pace if you do the post and beam freestanding roof first. We just built a house in NW Fla with 360 degree 8' wrap around porch and deal w/the same conditions you describe.Our structural engineer designed ours with PT 8x8" rough cut posts 3-4' in the ground two pieces #5 rebar (drill holes through postbelow grade) w/a 2x2x1' concrete collar to resist uplift. 18' posts CAN be put up manually. Rebar MUST be entirely encapsulated in concrete not sticking out. You will probably need thoseSimpson H10 clips (? would have to check my specs) or heavier to hold the trusses/rafters to the beam. Also attach beam w/1/2" galv. bolts. Amazing what a little time at the local voc/tech school in carpentry school can teach you. For me the $200/year has been the best investment I ever made. P.S. The strawbale list could be helpful. We have a little sb (first one given a permit in FL) and it is wonderful. Ah but I digress. This would eliminate rain getting to the windows at all and protect the trailer roof without getting on it. Gutters on the freestanding roof would easily allow you to harvest the water. Hope this helps. writes: >I need some helpx>sits a 15-year old mobile home, ultra cheap model, double wide. x >But I am a strong believer in retrofit and using up what you have >before >moving on, and I'm pretty convinced that the best course is to make >the mobile >home last as long as I do. >x >The fourth requirement is that the roof be reasonaly secure against >hurricanes. It can't just blow away because the wind is 100 mph. We >also >could get tornados (FL is 3rd in the US in torandos per unit area), >but there >is no defense against them except pure luck, not in high water table >country. > >The fifth requirement is that the roofover be likely to soften the >blow if one >of these giant oaks is blown down entirely. I do not expect to >salvage either >the roof over or the building in such a case, but I'd like to salvage >anyone >who might be inside. (Hopefully, we will have evacuated everyone to >the frame >house which can better withstand such an impact. We are talking about >oaks >three to five feet in diameter and 50 to 75 feet high with spans, >where not >crowded, as broad as their height. Unfortunately, from the point of >view of >softening impact, they do not retain lower branches and so the first >branch to >strike the building might be 2 feet in diameter. > >The sixth requirement is that it be termite and decay resistant. To >me, that >means steel or iron posts (maybe iron pipe?) set in concrete footings >and >attached securely to form a frame. I'd like to try ferrocement but >have no >idea how to go about coating the underside of the roof in place. I >doubt that >I could move ferrocement panels if I assembled them on the ground. I >strongly >dislike having heavy equipment on my soil and would not do it for >something of >this sort, so any kind of crane is out. > >That implies the seventh requirement, which is that I am able to build >this >myself. I am not a super builder, mainly because I'd rather be doing >almost >anything else except mucking with cars and their disgusting grease. >However >generally if the task does not require specialized tools and years of >experience, I can do it if I have to. Needless to say, if I can get >it over >with quickly, so much the better. > >I am open to any and all suggestions, especially references to books >that I >can actually find that will keep me on track. Again, if there is a >way to >work this into experience in building with ferrocement, this would be >helpful, >as we plan on using it for other things here. (Fibro cement also, but >not for >roofs and not until our bamboo gets more rambunctuous.) > >Cost is always an issue. I don't want the roof to be worth more than >the >house, and that isn't a whole lot in my book, except that it is all >the >building I will ever have in this spot. > >I know that this isn't sexy like making (uncleanable) roofs out of PV >or fancy >computations of heating and cooling loads and mysterious acronyms, but >we >really don't have enough information that we feel confident to >succeed. It >is too big a job to fake it and hope for luck. We can't afford that >financially and I wouldn't risk non-renewable resources on something >like that >anyway. > >So consider the lowly retrofit, if you will, and maybe you have the >info that >will be just what we need to spare the waste of the resources that >went into >building this (admittedly crappy) mobile home. > >For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications >(since 1982), >Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, >consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now >correspondence >courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: >Paraguay, >8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia >Hemenway, >P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com > >We don't have time to rush. > >A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at >http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > --------- End forwarded message ---------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 17:40:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA03327 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:40:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA16067 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:39:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08494; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:34:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:29:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA07910 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:29:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA07906 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:29:43 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <829d17ae.34ba8a85@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:26:28 EST To: FUnger@aol.com, sbtauto@juno.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Help on Roofover Details Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1184 Thanks Frank and the various folks who have emailed me privately. I guess I had thought that roofover was a common term everywhere. Here in the land of mobile retirement homes it is a common as any. A roofover is a freestanding structure that is built over the existing roof, obviously with adequate overhang. The aerodynamic possibilities in a hurricane are mind boggeling. I'm collecting input, no comments at the brainstorming stage. I've already got one excellent idea from private email that I know I will follow up on--my father-in-law is a retired structural engineer in Wichita, where they know about wind too. Believe it or not, before getting suggestions on the list, I never thought to ask him. Good family politics, too. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 17:43:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA03404 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:43:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA16840 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08881; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:37:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:32:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA08181 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:32:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08176 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:32:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from 3dfx.ampsc.com (3dfx.ampsc.com [207.102.161.150]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA05750; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:40:49 -0800 Message-ID: <34BA9A66.2CD2@ampsc.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:34:15 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Stivers CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment References: <199801101429.JAA05702@transfer.usit.net> <34B7CAF5.AF8@ampsc.com> <34BA95F9.D7E45915@flash.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1185 Larry Stivers wrote: > Well, Arjay, > > Maybe I missed something along the way, but the approach of enlarging the lots and > houses just sounds too good to be true. > > Who's going to pay for all those big houses and lots? Sounds to me like we could > be exacerbating the problem of distance (economic AND geographic) between the > haves and the have-nots. In this case, the have-nots could be the folks > struggling along on an $80k per year income. > > Perhaps we might also wait until teleportation is perfected so that Scotty can > beam us all to and from work. A lucky few today can work on-line from their homes > or participate in a cottage industry, but most still have to make the commute. I > personally detest urban sprawl and am disgusted with the results of "progress" on > my home town (San Antonio, TX). Someday I imagine the "I-35 corridor" from San > Antonio to Dallas will resemble much of the Atlantic coast with the subdivisions > and shopping malls punctuated by car lots and fast food joints. The burgeoning > casino industry may be the only eye-relief. That said, I fear that dedicating > more acreage per person for living space (at least the way we do it now) will only > add air time to urban flight. > > Even if we hurry up with our Zero Emission Vehicle program, I certainly don't want > to spend more and more of my life sitting in a ZEV or in some form of public > transportation. > > Larry Stivers > Victim and attempted carrier of arborophilia Yes Larry, you and, it appears, a lot of others, have missed the boat somewhere along the way. Considering 'all' of our land resources are under government authority, and historical records are ample, thre was a time, that one did not have to leave their property, known as home, until they needed either to buy or sell something, on a rare occasion. Most were self supporting, and combined theri presences for cultural , not just monetary exchanges. I am not going to get into any prolonged argument, but everyone should be able to afford a piece of the green space for themselves, and if the minium size of land titles was increased, then everyone would have that green space, maybe not where they want it, but it will be there anyway. Whoever 'created' and allowed the strata concept to be, should be shot, because that concept only enslaves those without, forever in an unhealthy and stifling environment. As for those that agree with what I say, it appears to be almost non existant. Most, by far have allowed themselves to become blinded to massing life styles, including the problems they create and the costs to health and safety. How does that song go, 'Give me land, give me land, where the........... Richard. Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 18:22:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04946 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:22:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA28359 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10395; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:15:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:11:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA09919 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09915 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:11:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA06160; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:15:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-50.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.178) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma006051; Mon Jan 12 17:15:23 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980112181435.006edafc@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:14:37 -0500 To: aeynon@micro.ti.com From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Dallas, Green builders / pros and cons Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1186 To: Alan J. Eynon ... Doins in Dallas ... 1. Barbara Harwood, (214) 418-7772 {award winning Dallas area builder) She is tops in the area, if not in the country in terms of implementing energy and environmental efficiency features. (sorry I don't have her e-mail but I think she lurks this list...) 2. New res. buildings can reduce energy use by at least 50% and still be "affordable" especially when you (takes work) get an energy efficiency mortgage. 3. Remodel ling can achieve no more than about 42% savings (1982 technology study by Muller Assoc. authored by Richard Crenshaw, for US DOE) even if cost is no object. .: my vote is a well designed new home of modest square footage, on an infil lot near public transportation, on city water and sewerage system, with considerations made for solar (passive, active hot water, and PV electric) to be installed later if not from the start, and care in selecting local low-enviro impact materials. Nearby (well in-state) is the Austin Green Builder program, which no doubt you will get many referrals to. I hope this is helpful. Please feel free to review our Green Building Primer on our web site for further details. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Environmental Building Information Services Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P.O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA bhoward2@sprynet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 18:54:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA06284 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:54:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA07409 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:53:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12017; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:48:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:44:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA11694 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:44:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA11690 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:44:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from van-52-2020.direct.ca (kadulski) [204.174.243.212] by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0xrtbO-00048j-00; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:49:06 -0800 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: re Insurance, economics and environment discussion Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:43:10 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1187 > From: John Salmen wrote: > > Greenbuilding solutions in Ontario and Quebec at this point would seem to relate > to the ability of a building to retain heat - is it true that the Ontario code was > to return to a R12? The question though has probably less to do with R value > beyond R12 than mass. My understanding is that is indeed the case. The minimum insulation levels were rolled back - in effect they have bought the arguments of track builders and developers that energy/environmental issues don't belong in the building code. According to that midset, they are saying that "the marketplace should decide the insulation levels" to be used. That argument, of course, begs the question of how socially relevant standards or actions are to be made. Unfortunately, the "marketplace" is a very poor mechanism for sending ethical/social messages. Home purchasers are not always sufficiently aware of, or have the opportunity to influence decisions on such issues as energy efficiency or "green" issues. There is a strong case to be made for finding new ways of making decisions of social importance. Total regulation is not always the answer, but then again the unfeterred free markeplace is not it either. The bottom line mentality that has the upper hand in public discourse today, unfortunately is not allowing for a fair and honest discussion of policy alternatives. There has to be some combination, with the acknowledgement that the public sector (for the general good) has a place in public life. > Will the insurance industry become the motivating force for yet another attempt at > a green revolution? My sense is that is is already happening. The insurance industry has taken a note that that climate change is having an impact on them - they don't need to have 100% proof, as some legislators and corporate spokespeople insist on. A reasonable chance that there is an impact on their business is enough to have them sit up and take action. Of course, their initial action may well be to redraft their policy language to exclude some of these factors, or change their rate structures. While they may recognize that there is impact on their business (and thus their bottom line), they may not know how to take any proactive action to help shift the conditions that are contributing to the problem. Again, I think it may be a problem of how to introduce value judgements into a simple bottom line discussion. Richard (Richard, R J Moore & Associates) certainly sparked a rather heated (if not vitriolic) discussion when he stated: > "The solution to everyone's problems concerning the disappearances of 'green spaces' will be found by increasing the minimum sizes for lots, acreages,and all of the land subdivision classifications, to a minium of acreages in rural landscapes, and amalgamation of smaller lots in urban landscapes, It has been shown repeatedly that human occupancy, similar to animal occupancy, requires a certain amount of 'green space' to maintain a healthy occupancy, so make the minium sizes of land for occupancy large enough so that human occupancy can persist. There is also a need to increase the minimum sizes of all living units, houses, apartments, condominiums, etc., and the components of the units, ie. bedrooms must be 12' x 12' not 8' x 8',....... the trend of cramming 1 and 2 people into 400 sq. ft. units has to end, the trend of cramming 1000 people into an acre of city land has to end, etc. >The population must be spread out over the landscapes, not stacked and crammed into concentrated areas, as our cities, muncipalities, etc. have become already. It seems to me that he is accepting as gospel truth that there is only form of development - the typical North American suburban spawl. Contrary to his conviction, in most areas there is a finite amount of land for the sprawl. In this corner of the world (Vancouver and Victoria, BC), both metropolitan areas, site of intense population growth and in-migration, are bounded by very well defined natural geographical boundaries (mountains, water, international borders). Yet sprawl has been the general development pattern, but the limitations are becoming very evident even to the general public. We have to remember that to support this type of development there has to be an ever increasing number of private automobiles (the automobile population of Vancouver is increasing even faster than the human population, to the detriment of the evironment - our smog haze is starting to resemble that of Los Angeles). The fact is that there are a range of development patterns, some low density as Richard advocates, other high density that are appropriate. The important point is that a mixed density approach has to be considered seriously, and can be highly liveable. More square footage, more property, etc. is, I believe, simply a reflection of the current consumer ethic where we are being pressured to believe that we need more stuff (whether we really need it or not). [Has anyone stopped to consider how much expensive warehouse space we build into our residences? All those large, walk-in storage closets, rooms, pantries, are nothing more than storage warehouses for the junk we acquire, and seldom use, but feel compelled to posses!] We need to be more sensitive to good design that can accomodate all lifestyles and tastes. And for the sake of the environment, I am firmly of the opinion that we must find ways of encouraging sensible higher density development. We are all aware of many European cities that are very high density, and yet are very liveable - more so than most North American cities. Even in North America we have examples of liveable, even pleasant urban environments. Areas of Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal come to mind, as does San Francisco. I am sure there are others. ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seymour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 19:04:24 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA06574 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:04:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA10455 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:03:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12959; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:58:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:53:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA12348 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:53:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA12336 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:53:14 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <7befade6.34baab91@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:47:26 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: More clarification on roofover. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1188 I do not understand building jargon. We will not have a contractor do it. Most of the local work I've seen has been so half assed I could do better myself. Why pay extra for that? This must be affordable out of pocket. Solutions that will run $5 to $10M are out of proportion with the value of the fix. We will NOT replace this building, ever. We have it by happenstance, had to buy it to get the land, and if it becomes useless, I will just be without the benefit of a personal office. A roofover, which as I've seen the term used locally means a freestanding roof, would be useful to store hay or something, I suppose, but more likely if I don't have enough forage for my animals I'll just keep killing them until I do. Right now I do and I'm improving that capacity. No one seems at all interested in the roof catchment water supply angle, which I thought would really interest this list, given that the finite resource that is most likely to limit human population is fresh water. I am sure that there is a simple, resoruceful, economical solution out there that can be expressed in basic English. No? For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 19:06:32 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA06619 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:06:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA10934 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:05:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA13246; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:00:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:55:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA12565 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:55:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12551; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:55:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.90] (ka2-90.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.90]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id TAA07980; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:00:15 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:57:24 -0500 To: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List From: Speireag Subject: GBlist: Roof Ventilation Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id SAB12556 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1189 Hallo, all. This discussion of attic venting has prompted me to wonder. (Surprise.) As I understand it, one system of roof design puts the insulation over a rigid interior layer such as boards. Above the insulation there is an open space of an inch or so where air can circulate freely to and from the outside, via ridge vents or vents along the edge of the roof (the word "soffit" fits in here somewhere, I think, but I'm not sure where). Above that space is another rigid layer, and on top of that goes the waterproof layer, whatever that may be. The purpose of this space is to permit the roof to dry out, apparently, either from moisture from the interior, from leaks, or both. (And maybe for other reasons which I don't know.) Okay. So suppose I put fiberglass in the roof. Doesn't permitting exterior air to wash over it drastically reduce its insulative value? Or at least significantly reduce it? If not, why not? If so, then why is it worth it? Further: the roof which I am planning will have two waterproof membranes and then bales of straw on top (with mulch and plants on top of that). In order to take advantage of the thermal mass of the straw and additives, it seems to me that I don't want an air break for exterior air between the straw layer and the insulation layer. Yes? No? If I *don't* have such a break, then obviously heat from the interior will diffuse into the waterproof layer and into the straw layer. This will, perhaps, result in the usual problem with ice dams. Is this something I need not worry about if I have 10 inches of good insulation and the thermal momentum of the straw to even matters out? This is one of the concerns I keep meaning to lay to rest and keep forgetting to mention. Cogitating furiously, -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 19:15:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA06783 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:15:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA13678 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:14:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA14444; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:09:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:04:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA13641 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:04:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13632 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:04:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.101.35]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA505; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 00:09:16 +0000 Message-ID: <34BAA9B7.25B97B5F@which.net> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:39:36 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sbtauto@juno.com CC: ewestbrook@topher.net, AKATZ@aec.ncsu.edu, khassan@mnsinc.com, hvac@together.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: heat load -Reply X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199801120535.XAA01004@mail.topher.net> <19980112.123840.3638.0.sbtauto@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1190 Why is that? Is size not important? Malcolm Scott Steve Shepard wrote: > What is hilarious about this discussion thread is that most HVAC > contractors (including mine) will (in one form or another) tell you to > go > to hell if you ask them to calculate heat/loss in a structure. > > If they are really polite they will refer you to an architect. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 19:31:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08305 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:31:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA18072 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:30:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA15197; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:25:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:21:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA14914 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:21:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.169]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA14910 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:21:06 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:15:41 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Fwd: Re: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_884650542_boundary" Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1191 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_884650542_boundary Content-ID: <0_884650542@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII --part0_884650542_boundary Content-ID: <0_884650542@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: Permacltur Return-path: To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:14:56 EST Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/12/98 5:42:30 PM, you wrote: << Yes Larry, you and, it appears, a lot of others, have missed the boat somewhere along the way. Considering 'all' of our land resources are under government authority, and historical records are ample, thre was a time, that one did not have to leave their property, known as home, until they needed either to buy or sell something, on a rare occasion. Most were self supporting, and combined theri presences for cultural , not just monetary exchanges. I am not going to get into any prolonged argument, but everyone should be able to afford a piece of the green space for themselves, and if the minium size of land titles was increased, then everyone would have that green space, maybe not where they want it, but it will be there anyway. Whoever 'created' and allowed the strata concept to be, should be shot, because that concept only enslaves those without, forever in an unhealthy and stifling environment. As for those that agree with what I say, it appears to be almost non existant. Most, by far have allowed themselves to become blinded to massing life styles, including the problems they create and the costs to health and safety. How does that song go, 'Give me land, give me land, where the........... Richard. Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ___________________________________________________________>> Well Richard, I'm not sure that there was a boat for Larry to miss. Probably it is unnecessary to piss on someone who seems to have a different perspective. However I do agree that a building is not sustainable if it avoids the issues of sustaining people. I'm not sure of the definition of Green on this list--most of the green I've seen so far is the color of the greenbacks needed for the high-tech solutions. Yet there is a lot of knowledge here too, I'm trying to pick up what I can as an outsider listening to the insiders talk in code. My special skill is teaching people and, if absolutly necessary, consulting for them in the area of sustainable lives and lifestyles. In my view, this is a step by step process and if people are willing to change, that is more than enough. If they are not, they won't be on this list. We aren't talking to them. None of us, I'd venture to say, are living sustainably today but it sounds like some people are giving some serious thought in that direction. Producing what you need, including your housing, from your home site and immediate bioregion is a goal. Some people come very close. Creating dependence on technology with items like PV which cannot be home made and which require a high degree of technological infrastructure are steps in the other direction. PV is sexy, though and a mud house is not. Many of us concerned with sustainability are convinced that the mainstream, global cash economy is the principal driving force toward the extinction of our species. It eats up the biological support mechanisms (soil, trees,a ir, water,e tc.), cultures that do live within their resource means, people who are not strong enough to hold onto their own resources, and of course its own participants who have less and less of a clue of how to sustain themselves in the place where they reside. I'd guess that not one person in 10,000 even knows the major wild foods growing in there area, particularly plant foods. While space is required to sustain ourselves, whether we ever see it or not, the understanding of how to do this is another matter. People can take so many steps toward energy conserviation, food conservation, food production, water harvesting and conservation, etc., even in cities, that the croak of the usual nay sayers--"people will never produce all they need"--is meaningless. Generally, in the permaculture movement we see self-reliance as more of a bioregional issue. No one is self-sufficient--everyone can be self reliant. The more we seek to draw on resources originating in our bioregion, the more we live with the consequences of our choices. Feedback is very helpful in making sound choices. Obviously,t he more we produce of our own goods and services and the less we draw on the global market place, the more self- reliant we are. If a time of crash, or of extreme emergency of some kind, happens, we are better prepared to weather it. And the emergencies might be less extreme if we consume, manage and design a little more responsibly. It doesn't seem to me telling people to live close together or far apart is the answer. It seems likely that the present population of the planet is unsustainable by an order of magnitude or two, so nature will make some readjustment. Meanwhile, every kind of living situation can be made more sustainable. This is not pie in the sky. We know how to do this. Some of that knowledge is the kind that surfaces on this list. I guess I am interested in how the folks knowledgeable about physical structures feel about the sustainability of the lifestyle these structures shelter, and how the structures support that lifestyle. In isolation from the other important issues such as water, food, energy (partly covered here), income, community, fiber, aesthetics (partly covered here), effects on native ecosystems, etc., a building is just another artifact plunked somewhere. While I want to learn from you folks all I can about the process of building well, I think it could be useful for us to look at context on this list as well. No? For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html --part0_884650542_boundary-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 20:03:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA08875 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:03:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA26854 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:02:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA16215; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:52:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA15790 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:52:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA15786 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:52:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (1Cust254.tnt5.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.117.254]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA13126; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:57:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801130057.QAA13126@germany.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: wliebold@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:56:16 -0500 To: "C. Dodge" , "Greenbuilding List" From: Warren Liebold Subject: Re: GBlist: Septic Systems Literature In-Reply-To: <199801111846.NAA29996@amsterdam.interport.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1192 At 01:49 PM 1/11/98 -0500, C. Dodge wrote: >I was wondering if anyone could refer me to a good general overview type >book on septic systems. Some years ago we did a bibliography on water efficiency and septic systems (the P.C. term nowadays is "Subsurface wastewater treatment system" ). I'll need your snail mail address. Warren Warren Liebold wliebold@earthlink.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 20:04:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA08893 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:04:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA27111 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA16303; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:57:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:53:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA15850 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:53:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA15841 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:53:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from van-as-14b01.direct.ca (kadulski) [204.174.251.65] by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0xrugP-0000v2-00; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:58:22 -0800 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: Economics meets the Environment greenbuilding-digest V2 #17 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:57:52 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1193 > From: Arjay > > Yes Larry, you and, it appears, a lot of others, have missed the boat > somewhere along the way. > > Considering 'all' of our land resources are under government authority, > and historical records are ample, thre was a time, that one did not have > to leave their property, known as home, until they needed either to buy > or sell something, on a rare occasion. Most were self supporting, and > combined theri presences for cultural , not just monetary exchanges. I plead guilty to misunderstanding the original post. I didn't catch on that the original message was essentially a neo-conservative/libertarian rant. Unfortunately, that is a philosophical stance that I have a lot of problems with, because its underlying selfishness (and greed) goes against all sense of community, and community values (and community does not imply everyone living mindlessly enslaved in a commune or under some government edict). Today we live in a society that relies on cooperation and interelation to a much greater extent than in the past. In that long gone era you are alluding to, most people could indeed live a virtually self contained existance. That is no longer the case. All of us communicating on this site do so because of the complex society that has evolved the technology we use. Computers, modems, CDs, TV's, airplanes, cars, etc. etc. are not the creation of independent cottagers living off the land. They are a creation of a complex urban society. The challenge is how do we provide a fair and equitable place for everyone, and allow everyone to have an opportunity for access to employment, social benefits and housing, without excessive heavy handed bureaucratic structures. > > I am not going to get into any prolonged argument, but everyone should > be able to afford a piece of the green space for themselves, and if the > minium size of land titles was increased, then everyone would have that > green space, maybe not where they want it, but it will be there anyway. > > Whoever 'created' and allowed the strata concept to be, should be shot, > because that concept only enslaves those without, forever in an > unhealthy and stifling environment. In fact the "strata" concept is an amazingly creative means of providing an option at home ownership for those with limited means. It evidently is not your choice, but we should recognize that a diversity of choices is important, and should be respected. There are other land tenure options also - from conventional freehold, to cooperatives, etc. > > As for those that agree with what I say, it appears to be almost non > existant. Most, by far have allowed themselves to become blinded to > massing life styles, including the problems they create and the costs to > health and safety. May I suggest you yourself may be blinded by your obviously strongly felt views. It seems that you have a hard time recognizing that many people have no problems living in a high density urban environment, and do it by choice. Cities can be very stimulating places. Urban situations are a source of problems only if there is a denial of the nature of the life styles, one of the key elements being a tolerance for a diversity of lifestyles, social classes, etc. If the tolerance is not there, and if everyone does their thing as if no one else matters, then you will encounter frictions that could fester. Human history actually is a history of urban man (persons to be PC?). The independent person living off the land is a myth, but a pervasive myth that evolved in North America, and even here I dare say it is more a myth rather than a reality. (Yes, there are places where you can still live a back-to-the land existence, but that is the exception). ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seymour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 22:12:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA14203 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:12:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA02983 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:11:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA20850; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:06:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:01:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA20543 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:01:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20531 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:01:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:21:01 +0000 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 98 21:18:24 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: block/roof tile machine To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <4953525.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1194 Some leads (though from far away) for earth block and roofing tile are the TARA Roofmaker and TARA Balram mudblock, available through TARA, Development Alternatives, B-32 TARA Crescent, Qutab Institutional Area, New Delhi - 110 016, India, Tel: 91+11+65-7938/66-5370 FAX: 91+11+686-6031. Other information should be available through Intermediate Technology, 103-105 Southampton Row, London WC1B 4HH, UK, Tel: +44 171 436 9761; FAX +44 171 436 2013 Cinva rams for low cost block can sometimes be found around the US & Central America (these work well but only produce 1-2 blocks per motion, so take a long time to make enough block for a structure. Good luck! -- Center for Maximum Potential Building Systems cmpbs@greenbuilder.com http://www.cmpbs.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 22:24:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA15527 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:24:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA06170 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:23:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA21400; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:18:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:14:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA21085 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:13:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21079 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:13:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5.carleton.ca [134.117.136.25]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v2.01) with ESMTP id WAA04966; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:18:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id WAA10783; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:18:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:18:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801130318.WAA10783@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: RCMathis1@aol.com Subject: GBlist: re: Window ratings (more) (or less) Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1195 on Mon, 12 Jan 1998 RCMathis1 wrote: > Take care about this discussion on "ER"... is applicable > solely to CANADA (and with some questions there)... In the US > (where we build 10X the number of buildings as our Canadian > neighbors and consume ??? times the amount of energy) we need > to focus on U-factors, Solar Heat Gain Coefficients, Visible > Transmittance [snip] Hey ! I resemble that remark. I think that the Canadian ER rating system is *very* well-suited to the Average Window Consumer. It gives her an easily understood means of judging the relative efficiency of one window product over another. Practically idiot (and engineer) proof. I would bet you a bazillion Murrican dollars that if you went out on the street and asked twenty people to select a window based on "Transmittance, Reflectance, U-factors, SHGC, and Shading Co- efficients" (after explaining what each term meant)... all twenty of them would say "Huh ?" (and if it were a US street, they would make you give them your wallet) OTOH, if you explained that a window with an ER rating greater than "zero" would result in a net energy gain when placed in any compass orientation (and the higher the number the better) ...and that a window with a negative ER rating would be a net energy loser (more negative = worse) ... I would say that 18 out of those original 20 would have no trouble selecting the better window product. Granted, a design professional would want to know what each of the factors and co-efficients are... and perhaps futz around with them, to make it *look* like he's actually doing something to earn his design fees, ... but in the end, the result is the same. Tsk, tsk, tsk. The Murrican penchant for needless complexification of seemingly simple tasks rears its comical head again. So Murricans build 10x more houses and consume ####X more energy , eh ? With all that practice you STILL can't get it right ? Whassamattyou ANYWAY ? There. That's my patriotic contribution to this month's Full Moon Silliness. -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 22:30:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA15725 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:30:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA07664 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:29:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA21823; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:23:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:19:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA21495 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:19:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.167]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21490 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:19:39 -0500 (EST) From: RodLambert Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:17:45 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: RodLambert@aol.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1196 Great topic! We need to be tolerant of all ideas of course and not 'flame' each other when opinions differ. I myself did a doubletake though when I saw the idea presented about more spread out development. One solution that we are presenting here at Ecovillage at Ithaca is to cluster the homes as someone else suggested. We took over 176 acres slated for typical 'estate' develpment of 150 homes and have created a design for 150 homes on about 18 - 20 acres including community buildings with each 30 homes group having a great deal of say in the design of their community. The rest of the land will be used for agriculture, orchards, forest, 'constructed marsh' etc. The right density of use for 'sustainable' life styles is difficult to gauge but this approach makes so much more sense to me. We have built the first cluster of 30 homes and are assembling the residents to design the next cluster. The sustainable technology seems to be the easy part - relearning what it means to live in community is the hard part - but well worth the effort! Rod Lambert Development Management Ecovillage at Ithaca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 12 23:50:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA18541 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:50:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA00302 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA24531; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:43:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:39:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA24116 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA24110 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 23:38:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (usr35.cwo.com [207.173.173.45]) by mail.cwo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23399 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:44:42 -0800 Message-Id: <199801130444.UAA23399@mail.cwo.com> Reply-To: From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #17 Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:30:23 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1197 Chris, I wouldn't spend too much time looking for a UBC on-line. The International Conference of Building Officials charges well over a hundred dollars for a complete set of them these days; they aren't likely to give (or allow) free access to it over the 'net. However, many states have their own state building code, which is generally a slightly modified UBC (or SBC or whatever they use in that part of the country). California has its own, and again, it isn't much different from the UBC. However, where it is different, California law requires you to reference the State Building Code, not the UBC. You might want to check and see if Idaho has the same situation. If so, then check with your equivalent of California's Housing and Community Development Department. They might have their code on line. If not, then your local library and building departments will have the "dead tree" version. Nehemiah Stone California Energy Commission > From: IdahoCFM > Subject: GBlist: UBC on-line? > > Wondering if any of you know of a location of the UBC (building code, not the > university) on line? I've done my due dilligence through the common search > engines, with no results. Anybody know of a site I could find it on? > > Chris > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 13 10:09:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11536 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:09:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27755 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:08:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09426; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:03:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:59:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA08735 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:58:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08730 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:58:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA20389; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 07:04:03 -0800 Message-ID: <34BB8158.FA885E5A@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 06:59:37 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Permacltur , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: More clarification on roofover. References: <7befade6.34baab91@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1198 I like Twila's thoughts on an independent roof. You were talking about substantial overhangs on a fairly small building. The ease of a 'roof over' might offset the slight increase in eventual cost and leave you with a stronger structure with more flexibility in design and usage. Water is a corrosive material that changes and is changed by any material it comes into contact with. Steel roofing is generally the best available for water collection and of all the metal roofings available the galvanized or galvalume finishes are the least expensive. There is some toxicity from oxidization of the finish (I can't find my reference for the contaminant) The coated finishes might perform better but I have not researched their potential over time. The interesting potential of a roof over is the ability to construct a green roof. (flat or slight incline). The basic current materials used are a rubber or latex sheet (epdm) for waterproofing generally available in extremely large widths - to whatever length is required. This sheet could be a possible source of contamination but depending on how the subsequent drainage and soil layers are designed the contact times might be minimized. You might want to look into traditional sod roof techniques (northern european consisted of alternating layers of turf (roots up, down, etc) to provide a watertight assembly. There is an anaerobic process that occurs in the decay of the organic matter to provide a waterproof membrane within the roof assembly similar to naturally occuring pond membranes. The other interesting thing about using a green roof for water is the potential for pre- filtration in sand mediums - both particle and biological. Issues of water conservation consist not only cachement but of maintaining water purity over all sources of contact and usage, even if the water is not to be used- petroleum based roofing products can be a heavy source of contamination. John Salmen TERAIN E.D.S. Permacltur wrote: > I do not understand building jargon. > > We will not have a contractor do it. Most of the local work I've seen has > been so half assed I could do better myself. Why pay extra for that? > > This must be affordable out of pocket. Solutions that will run $5 to $10M are > out of proportion with the value of the fix. > > We will NOT replace this building, ever. We have it by happenstance, had to > buy it to get the land, and if it becomes useless, I will just be without the > benefit of a personal office. A roofover, which as I've seen the term used > locally means a freestanding roof, would be useful to store hay or something, > I suppose, but more likely if I don't have enough forage for my animals I'll > just keep killing them until I do. Right now I do and I'm improving that > capacity. > > No one seems at all interested in the roof catchment water supply angle, which > I thought would really interest this list, given that the finite resource that > is most likely to limit human population is fresh water. > > I am sure that there is a simple, resoruceful, economical solution out there > that can be expressed in basic English. No? > > For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), > Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, > consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence > courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, > 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, > P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com > > We don't have time to rush. > > A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at > http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 13 11:56:53 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16385 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:56:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28497 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:55:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15653; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:50:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:44:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14989 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:44:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.169]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14985 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:44:07 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <2f13664e.34bb99e2@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:44:17 EST To: terrain@cow-net.com, Permacltur@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: More clarification on roofover. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1199 Thanks John: Ideas noted. The sod roof is something I had not considered. I'm not sure it will work here in heavy shade with very erratic rainfall and extremely high summer evaporation potential. This would involve a roof structurally more like the ones I grew up with in Massachusetts, designed for snow loads, or in this case, soden sod loads. It happens that I did design a roof in Massachusetts for a sod water collection, for several of the reasons you cited, particularly also airborne pollution. That roof was gently funnel shaped, so that the elevated cistern at the center was fed from one small area. The cistern was supported by masonry--lots of rocks available. The building was to be a prototype for a larger structure with a high-mass masonry stove under the cistern, providing part of the support. The building project extended beyond the relationship upon which the building, (a "chicken coop", to keep unimaginative building inspectors uninterested) was completed. However the reasoning is interesting. Here, I guess I'd have to find a highly fibrous ground cover that will tolerate shade, extremes in moisture, and very high temperatures. while this is indeed exactly my speciality, none comes to mind. Obiously,w e aren't going to fell the trees for which we bought the place in order to make a sod roof work. Regarding toxicity, there is no need to drink the water as we also have a well. I just don't want to use it more than absolutely necessary to keep our burden on the Florida water crisis to a minimum. If we have interns, I suppose we can assume that they will drink a gallon per day from the well, which also may need to be used if we cannot immediately afford enough cistern capacity. I'm pretty sure that the roof sheds enough water for any reasonable uses, plus some irrigation by gravity from the cistern. (We have swamp water we can pump for irrigation too, so we needn't rely on deep water for that at all.) Any material I would choose would be fine for washing machine, toilets, and washing dishes. I'd be more concerned about bird shit than metals, I think with galvanized, ferrocement, or some other safe material. (I'm assuming ferrocement is out of style as I've gotten no response on that possiblity.) Showers will probably require the well until we hook up a pressure tank with a hand pump. I've used one--it takes about 50 strokes to achieve enough pressure for a medium-long shower. A pitcher pump with gate valves & Ts works fine. Just one more project though, so I'll wait until there is an intern living here who needs the shower and have him/her do it. The birdshit issue is resolved by using a separate tank for the initial flow of water. A floating ball in a cage or a counterweight setup can switch the water to the main cistern. The high fertility water is then used for irrigation. I've worked this out in the past. Given that our deep well water is very hard, I'm sure that the cistern water will be an improvement. Generally, the help I need is not conceptual, but specific. What material, how are the supports attached (I'd like to use something that will last, like pipe. NO treated lumber--it is a curse.) I take it no one on the list has ever seen a manual about how to do this. Dan In a message dated 1/13/98 10:05:49 AM, terrain@cow-net.com wrote: <> ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 13 14:03:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23438 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:03:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA24412 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:02:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21785; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:52:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21394 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:52:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21390 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:52:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA17204 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:56:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-06.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.134) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma017169; Tue Jan 13 12:56:18 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980113135539.006d1e30@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:55:41 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: no flamewars! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1200 PLEASE - no flamewars... I love this too much to lose it... Best regards, Bion ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Environmental Building Information Services Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P.O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA bhoward2@sprynet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 13 14:17:08 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23809 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:17:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA28688 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:16:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22585; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:10:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:06:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22205 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:06:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from saclink3.csus.edu (saclink3.csus.edu [130.86.82.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22200 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:06:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801131906.OAA22200@solstice.crest.org> Received: from PC-ANTHRO-04.mnh.csus.edu by saclink3.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA278918685; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:11:25 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "PE" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:51:51 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment Reply-To: sac28787@saclink.csus.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1201 Not to belabor the ideologies, but the recent tract about BIG space and BIG homes evoked some earnest wishes to reform the market system, (before which all heads must bow), and some yearning for days of yore (What's yore poison?). Sorry, markets will continue to promote their own limited 'efficiency,' and Indonesia will continue getting 'rich' by cutting its forest capital till it busts, as may now be happening. The reflex dissing of 'command economies' still fails to note the increased crime and decreased lifespan in the New Improved Russia, or notes it briefly as transitional. Judging from Britain's 19th century, maybe that's what the beast produces if uncontrolled. Many fine schemes have attempted to remold the system nearer to the heart's desire. Among them I urge study of the earlier Fabians, up to (say) the 1930s, and the quirky Distributism of the fabulous Chesterbelloc. When the reading's done, the reforms tried, and the system goes on, progressing headlong downhill, a bit of that quaint 19th-century thinker Karl Marx may then be in order. His Grundrisse sketched both the current situation and future robotization of labor. Reforms that fail to take account of overall systemic laws, simply injecting ecology into economics, will disappoint the reformers, and discourage them from further effort. Pet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 13 14:39:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA24368 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:39:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA05639 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:38:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23739; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:29:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23394 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:29:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23389 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:29:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.21] (mke-1-5.binc.net [208.142.229.21]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA24442; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:33:48 -0600 Message-Id: <199801131933.NAA24442@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Timber frame affordability Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 08:34:32 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "Patrick Pierquet" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1202 Patrick, As a practicing timber framer and builder, I'd like to chime in on your comments on timber framing. 1. If one replaces wood joinery with steel connectors, the building is no lnger a timber frame. It's a post and beam. My clients don't want to look at big clunky metal plates holding their beams together. Besides, we recently did a job in Toledo, where the metal plates spec'd by the architect to replace wood joinery actually cost more than wood joinery. 2.Timber frames are inherently over built. The size of the timber is determined by the joinery that has to go into them, not just the loading. Once material is removed to form the joints, the structural capacity of the "stick" must be re-evaluated. Timber frames must be cut from "heart sawn" timber- that taken from the center of the tree. This is the most stable part of the tree. It is also the least appealing from an aesthetic point of view, since it is knotty and tends to check more. This material was historically discarded as fire wood or used as rail road ties. The outer sapwood is what is used as appearance grade wood for trim. In addition, there is the aesthetic of properly scaling the beams to the space. I've seen frames which were cut from timber which was only big enough to carry the loads. Looks silly. Alex Wade fails to address these issues. 3. We frequently build homes as small as 800 sq ft. While it is true that our average square footage is somewhere around 2300, I don't think it's fair to pick us out as being guilty of building monster homes. Those are the ones that get all the attention, just as in the stick frame world. There is no question that timber frame homes are expensive. we routinely quote prices which are 10% or more higher than stick frame. But we feel the customer gets a beautiful, efficient, extremely durable product, which in the end is a very good value. Best, Chris Koehn Top Ridge Timber Frame Homes ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 13 15:20:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA26441 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:20:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA16848 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:19:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25499; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:11:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:06:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25112 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:06:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu (0@eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25104 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:06:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin108.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.118]) by eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu with SMTP (8.8.6/8.7.1) id MAA09246; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:11:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BBCA66.37F6@uidaho.edu> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:11:18 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RodLambert CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1203 The idea Richard proposed earlier regarding less density sounds similar to Frank Lloyd Wright's 'Broadacre City' concept proposed in the early '30's. Wright stated in "The Disappearing City" that "the future of the city will be everywhere and nowhere" and "it will be a city so greatly different from the ancient city or from any city of today that we will probably fail to recognize its coming as a city at all...America needs no help to build Broadacre City. It will build itself, haphazard." Take away all of Wright's social ideas and I'd say the vision has become reality - 'tho quite a bit messier than as portayed in his sketches. Kurt Rathmann Moscow, Idaho - pass broadacre and take a right. You'll know you're somewhere without any help at all. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 13 15:34:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA26724 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:34:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA20817 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:33:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26497; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:28:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:24:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26111 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:23:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26098 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:23:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA28887; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:28:43 -0800 Message-ID: <34BBCD6F.AE602C6A@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:24:15 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris & Ruth Koehn CC: Patrick Pierquet , GB List Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Timber frame affordability References: <199801131933.NAA24442@glacier.binc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1204 All of our structures have been in part large dimension wood frame with metal and wood connectors. I agree with Chris and would not call this usage of the material timber frame - post and beam or more specifically structural wood frame are terms I use. Ironically I went to larger dimension framing material to economize- though it is definitely part of the aesthetic. As Chris mentioned the base material is a boxed heart. My use of larger dimension material derived from using 2nd growth from selectively cut forest lots. Using the material to its best advantage involved deriving the most strength to purpose to size. A boxed heart on a 40-60 year old tree will (fir/hemlock/cedar) will provide a 6/6, 6/8, etc with some 2x material that is used for structural roof decking/flooring and some 1x often used for siding. Conveniently the loading characteristics of most of the material I use over spans, etc. generally calls for material in those dimensions. (Recent changes load conditions has slightly increased some of these sizes) A cut generally also provides enough clear tighter grained material for continuous door/window production as well. I could not maintain the economy of these structures with a lot of traditional joinery techniques (though it would be nice) principally I design the structures with few integrated connections i.e. full crossover or 1/2 lap with through bolt connections. I use a lot of hidden connectors that are simply flat aluminum plates inerted into saw kerfs (a lot of ideas are sourced from architectural cabinetry hardware details). We are also trying to engineer for machine mortised wood connectors (essentially an oversize biscuit joint) either simply dowelled in or epoxy and dowel. I've nicknamed this process IKEA housing. This type of work bears no convincing similarity to traditional timber framing but it shares many aspects of function and some of the aesthetic and if properly engineered some potential for longevity. As a framing system I am consistently using less material than stick framing the equivalent space but its hard to make comparisons because the approach to the design becomes different - generally one of the design criteria is minimizing material usage. One of the aspects that I like is that the larger dimension material is well suited to reuse. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Chris & Ruth Koehn wrote: > Patrick, > > As a practicing timber framer and builder, I'd like to chime in on your > comments on timber framing. > > 1. If one replaces wood joinery with steel connectors, the building is no > lnger a timber frame. It's a post and beam. My clients don't want to look > at big clunky metal plates holding their beams together. Besides, we > recently did a job in Toledo, where the metal plates spec'd by the > architect to replace wood joinery actually cost more than wood joinery. > > 2.Timber frames are inherently over built. The size of the timber is > determined by the joinery that has to go into them, not just the loading. > Once material is removed to form the joints, the structural capacity of > the "stick" must be re-evaluated. Timber frames must be cut from "heart > sawn" timber- that taken from the center of the tree. This is the most > stable part of the tree. It is also the least appealing from an aesthetic > point of view, since it is knotty and tends to check more. This material > was historically discarded as fire wood or used as rail road ties. The > outer sapwood is what is used as appearance grade wood for trim. In > addition, there is the aesthetic of properly scaling the beams to the > space. I've seen frames which were cut from timber which was only big > enough to carry the loads. Looks silly. Alex Wade fails to address these > issues. > > 3. We frequently build homes as small as 800 sq ft. While it is true that > our average square footage is somewhere around 2300, I don't think it's > fair to pick us out as being guilty of building monster homes. Those are > the ones that get all the attention, just as in the stick frame world. > > There is no question that timber frame homes are expensive. we routinely > quote prices which are 10% or more higher than stick frame. But we feel > the customer gets a beautiful, efficient, extremely durable product, > which in the end is a very good value. > > Best, > > Chris Koehn > Top Ridge Timber Frame Homes > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 13 16:29:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA29195 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:29:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA07719 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:28:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29164; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:23:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:17:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA28757 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:17:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28753 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:17:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.17] (mke-1-1.binc.net [208.142.229.17]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA10641; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:22:17 -0600 Message-Id: <199801132122.PAA10641@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: sliding glass doors Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 10:22:59 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "Beverly A. Weiter" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1205 Hi Beverly, Most patio doors are designed with the sliding panel on the room side. As the wind blows, the panel is forced inward, magnifying the situation. I'm not aware of a gasket system which will completely eliminate this phenomenon. Experiment with ways to eliminate the whistle- caulk, adjust the door, new weatherstrip, etc- the leakiness is likely to stay to some degree. Pella sliding doors have the sliding panel on the outside. That way, when the wind blows, the door is forced tighter in to the gaskets. Chris Koehn Top Ridge Homes ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 13 16:37:08 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA29473 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:37:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA10032 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:36:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29741; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:29:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:24:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA29242 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:24:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29236 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:23:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.17] (mke-1-1.binc.net [208.142.229.17]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA11893 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:28:40 -0600 Message-Id: <199801132128.PAA11893@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: Re[2]: GBlist: Re: Timber frame affordability Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 10:29:24 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1206 Subject: Re: Re[2]: GBlist: Re: Timber frame affordability Sent: 1/13/98 8:51 AM To: Patrick Pierquet, PPierquet@us.teltech.com Hi Patrick, I have to go with my experience- Steel connectors are not more affordable. If you and your clients find them more affordable and aesthetically pleasing- more power to ya. Perhaps I've been looking at timber frames for so many years they just look out of place. I have, by the way, seen some beautiful old post and beam warehouse buildings done with metal connectors. These connectors are cast iron- much more heavy- and detailed- than the non-descript plates I see being used today. Downtown milwaukee is full of 'em- they are being rehabbed into residential, retail, and commercial space. All of the timbers in these buildings are heart sawn fir or yellow pine dating form the 1880-90's, and they are all massive, and still standing. Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 13 17:31:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA02213 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:31:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA26294 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:30:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA02130; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:21:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:17:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA01649 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:17:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01633 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:16:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from creator.ampsc.com (creator.ampsc.com [207.102.161.127]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA05340; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:24:35 -0800 Message-ID: <34BBE840.6310@ampsc.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:18:40 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris & Ruth Koehn CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: sliding glass doors References: <199801132122.PAA10641@glacier.binc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1207 Chris & Ruth Koehn wrote: > > Hi Beverly, > > Most patio doors are designed with the sliding panel on the room side. As > the wind blows, the panel is forced inward, magnifying the situation. I'm > not aware of a gasket system which will completely eliminate this > phenomenon. Experiment with ways to eliminate the whistle- caulk, adjust > the door, new weatherstrip, etc- the leakiness is likely to stay to some > degree. > > Pella sliding doors have the sliding panel on the outside. That way, when > the wind blows, the door is forced tighter in to the gaskets. > > Chris Koehn > Top Ridge Homes There is another way to maintain tight gaskets in the sliding glass doors, install a sill mounted security foot activated latch. Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 13 19:28:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08305 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:28:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA28343 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:27:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA07028; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:22:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:17:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA06699 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:17:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06694 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:17:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from pacbell.net (ppp-207-214-149-8.snrf01.pacbell.net [207.214.149.8]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with ESMTP id QAA13944; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:22:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BC040D.FC456775@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:17:17 -0800 From: Dana Boudreau X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen , greenbuilding@crest.org CC: dana@pacbell.net Subject: Re: GBlist: Public compost toilets References: <34ABDAF8.22E75FBB@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1208 There is a Netherlands organization, De Twaalf Ambachten (Twelve Trades), that produced a "Guide to Building your own Compact Composter (CC)", second edition January 1993 ISBN 90.70.412.21.7. The original motivation was to evolve composting toilets for use on boats, trains, and similar vessels. The guide discusses issues surrounding sewage, their experience with composting toilets (Clivus Multrum) at their appropriate technology center, and their design specifications for a ferro-cement compact composting unit. My apologies for the delay in responding, but for some reason I filed their information with my cross-country ski gear. Their design specifically addresses: * human behavior: lids with self-closing flaps * maintenance by one individual * surplus fluid: design works up to but not including the urine volume of a "beer party" * aeration, methane and ammonium gas * flies The configuration includes a primary, or receiving chamber, and a secondary, or composting chamber. Every six months, the unit is pivoted part way around a central axis. Material in the first chamber continues toward the second chamber, and material in the second chamber moves to a staging area for removal. After removing material, the unit is lowered back to the original position. Think of it as a nautilus shell with opposing rather than spiraling baffles to define chambers. The use perches on the "mouth" of the shell, and each periodic rotation shuttles material sequentially through the chambers. This performs stacking within the unit itself rather than requiring multiple units to achieve thorough finishing. Expanding the system is a matter of increasing the width of the device to some degree, or adding additional self-contained units. To lower in-room height of the seat and reduce the Throne Effect, under-floor spacing is 50 cm. Maintenance (includes filling the unit with chopped straw once every six months (to achieve a C/N ratio between 30-35). Also, the contents of the first compartment should be stirred once a week to ensure consistent heating and decomposition of the mass. These activities are well within the current requirements of park maintenance personnel. Instead of "flushing" the unit, each user pulls a handle which swings a leveling bar through the first chamber and reduces mounding. Associate the lever with toilet paper dispensing and you'd get good compliance. Using straw-based toilet paper (business opportunity alert) could supplement the routine maintenance. Obvious shortcomings to many designs are when users add inorganic and toxic compounds. Any compounds that arrest the composting function will result in unhealthy conditions, and in a limited-space unit, an empty plastic soda bottle can displace significant volume. A contingency plan should provide a means to empty a disabled unit and restore it to operating condition. They provide plans for constructing a wood and ferro-cement unit, and may by now provide several styles depending on the installation. To give an idea of the unit volume, the materials list states "If you buy one bag (50 kg) of portland cement and 60 to 100 kg of fine sand, you have more than enough." Finished ferro-cement wall thickness is 1015 mm. Some capacity numbers: Unit width # people volume ---------- --------- ------- 72 cm 1-2 122 liters 90 cm 4 156 liters 100 cm 4-6 179.5 liters The relatively small increments in chamber width appear to provide significant increases in capacity. However, this information may work only with known and predictable usage patterns of a small population. I suppose that the design may be scaled to some degree to handle larger numbers of people. Increasing the cycle time below six months is not recommended, so if a unit fills up faster, it will need to sit idle. A solar chimney+fan is integral with the design, or can be replaced with a continuous 1.8 watt fan. My last contact with this organization was in 1994. Here is my last location on their address and phone number: Stichting De Twaalf Ambachten De Bleken 2 5282 HB Boxtel The Netherlands tel: 04116-72621 Happy project, Dana Boudreau ------ Disclaimer: I'm just a private citizen routinely bombarded by mis-informationists and spin-doctors. Be your own best council as to the validity and usefulness of my comments. John Salmen wrote: > A happy new year to everyone. > > I have a fun project for the new year which is to coordinate the design > for a public compost toilet building to be used in some local community > parks. The purpose is to lessen the environmental impact of increasingly > heavy park usage. There are increasing concerns of water contamination > from septic sources and the current hole in the ground facilities are a > prime source. While there do seem to be a number of commercial options > out there the concept of having to import a number of expensive large > bulky plastic items to our area seems redundant and wasteful when the > structure itself could probably incorporate the mechanics of the toilet, > could hopefully be designed more specifically for the intended usage and > could be done locally at less cost (it seems important in a project > like this to try and encourage a little community economic development > and develop some localized skills in composting tech.) > > I would love some help getting some design specifications together for a > concrete tank system. The problem I'm anticipating is showing relavent > authorities that the design would work. I've seen rough designs for a > clivus type system but no real commentary about under what range of > conditions it might work. Usage of a park toilet is infrequent and > seasonal. I'm concerned about a heavy liquid ratio and how that might be > safely evaporated (need to keep this self contained as most of the park > areas are on rivers and streams). Maintenance is also another issue. > Usage of a commercial system is an option but I've reviewed the products > and am a bit skeptical about some of the claims. > > I've seem some discussion here on composting toilets and am hoping to > benefit from the expertise out there. > > Thanks > > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 13 19:45:36 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08810 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:45:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA03613 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:44:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA07724; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:38:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:34:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA07435 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:34:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07431 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:34:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from pacbell.net (ppp-207-214-149-8.snrf01.pacbell.net [207.214.149.8]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with ESMTP id QAA23816; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:39:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BC0841.EDE92BA8@pacbell.net> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:35:14 -0800 From: Dana Boudreau X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen , greenbuilding@crest.org CC: dana@pacbell.net Subject: Re: GBlist: Public compost toilets (correction) References: <34ABDAF8.22E75FBB@cow-net.com> <34BC040D.FC456775@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1209 Correction: the sentence "Finished ferro-cement wall thickness is 1015 mm" should read "Finished ferro-cement wall thickness is 10 to 15 mm." Unless you enjoy the literal practice of common obscene remarks, it is highly unlikely that you'll wish to combine the functions of a composting toilet and a bomb shelter, thus no need for meter-thick walls. For want of a dash, Dana Boudreau Dana Boudreau wrote: [deletions] > They provide plans for constructing a wood and ferro-cement unit, and may by > now provide several styles depending on the installation. To give an idea of > the unit volume, the materials list states "If you buy one bag (50 kg) of > portland cement and 60 to 100 kg of fine sand, you have more than enough." > Finished ferro-cement wall thickness is 1015 mm. [deletions] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 13 19:59:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA10133 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:59:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA07806 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:58:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08416; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:52:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:48:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA08067 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:47:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA08063 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:47:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.235] (li-ppp08.hevanet.com [204.119.60.173]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16336 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:53:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:10:53 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: GBlist: Flames Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1210 Hi, all-- I was really shocked at Richard Moore's flame directed at Dona. It's very angry. I hope we can figure out what's bothering him and get him back into a rational discussion. Best, Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Earth Smart Program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 13 22:45:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA18663 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:45:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA23510 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:44:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14620; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:39:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:34:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA14254 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:34:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from sparticus.eurekanet.com (root@sparticus.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA14250 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:34:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (port-02-24.athens.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.154]) by sparticus.eurekanet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA02729; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:07:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801141107.GAA02729@sparticus.eurekanet.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Catherine M. Muller" Organization: National Center for Appropriate Technology To: "Janice Steinem & John Barrett" , Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:49:37 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Air Spaces and Claddings Reply-to: cmuller@ncat.org CC: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1211 < To: , Subject: Re: GBlist: wraps Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:58:50 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: DAEly@aol.com To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 10:15 PM Subject: GBlist: wraps > One concern I have (in theory) is fire safety. > For the furring to work it must have ventillation, and if there is >ventillation between flamable surfaces there is the possibility for >fire to travel. Does anybody have any experience with this? I have worked on buildings with 1" of foam/furring strips/clapboards. It could create a chimmney effect. Fire stops anyone...>> Hello, Sorry for the long delay in reply. I forwarded your note to Building Science Corp. Joe Lstiburek responded in a fax to me, and asked that I forward it to you. "Rainscreens (that small gap between the drainage plane and the cladding) are not meant to ventilate. The functions of the space in order of order of importance, are: 1. *Drainage, drainage, drainage* 2. Capillary break 3. To act as a receptor for thermally driven moisture (from exterior and interior) in vapor form 4. Air pressure relief, i.e. pressure equalization 5. Moisture removal by air-flow "Number 5 is the least important - you do not want or need much airflow. Note tha tbrick has a 1" air space behind it, by code. Fire tests show that the air space should be less than 1" - 3/8" to 3/4". In commercial high rises, the cavities are "broken" at every floor, i.e. compartmentalized with height for fire control reasons. "It could become a fire problem if people design the airspace for actual air flow. (A bad idea.) The thinner the space, the less movement. I really like it about 1/2 inch." So says Joe. Hope this helps. CM Catherine M. Muller Project Coordinator, Multi-family Services National Center for Appropriate Technology 16 Spring Street, Glouster, Ohio 45732 cmuller@ncat.org 614/767-9000 (phone); 614/767-9033 (fax) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 13 23:19:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA20784 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:19:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA02549 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:18:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA15998; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:12:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:08:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA15413 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:07:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA15402 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:07:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (usr18.cwo.com [207.173.173.28]) by mail.cwo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA06622 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:13:07 -0800 Message-Id: <199801140413.UAA06622@mail.cwo.com> Reply-To: From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: heat load calcs AND a PRECISE ER Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:06:36 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1212 Malcolm, Of course size is important. That's not the reason for their flip or nasty (depending upon your region) retort to your request. It's just that (a) "Time is money," and if they don't have to "waste" their time running calculations for you, then you represent a higher profit margin to them, (b) they feel that they can get it "close enough" relying on their years of experience (or if they are relatively new, their 'teacher's years of experience - generally, the old fart will have told him to stand at the curb and hold his hand at arms length; if he can cover up the house, then he only needs a ton and a half of cooling; if not, then he better go with three tons.), (c) it's too much trouble to mess with all those equation things anyway, and (d) if he acts like he is insulted that you don't trust his judgement, maybe he can get the job without having to prove to you that shouldn't. After all, if he actually calcs it out, he'd have to consider what size your windows are, what orientation each one faces, what room sees each window's load, how much difference that pesky tinting ("... or gosh, did he say "louie coating'?") makes in the solar gains, "is the attic that we're going to put those ducts in insulated above the ducts or below them?", and worst of all, "am I actually goping to have seal those ducts, or can I just put a piece of that grey tape on them like usual?" Realllly! That's too much to ask of a busy businessman. After all, he's a professional! > {snip} > Why is that? Is size not important? > Malcolm Scott > > Steve Shepard wrote: > > > What is hilarious about this discussion thread is that most HVAC > > contractors (including mine) will (in one form or another) tell you to > > go to hell if you ask them to calculate heat/loss in a structure. > >{snip} > __________________________________________________ > From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) > > Hey ! I resemble that remark. > No you don't. Generally, you make more sense. > I think that the Canadian ER rating system is *very* well-suited to > the Average Window Consumer. It gives her an easily understood > means of judging the relative efficiency of one window product over > another. Practically idiot (and engineer) proof. > Careful here Billy Bob Rob Tom Paul! Idiots can be awfully ingenius at foiling even a well reasoned strategy; and this one might not fit that category. > I would bet you a bazillion Murrican dollars that if you went out > on the street and asked twenty people to select a window based on > "Transmittance, Reflectance, U-factors, SHGC, and Shading Co- > efficients" (after explaining what each term meant)... all twenty > of them would say "Huh ?" (and if it were a US street, they would make > you give them your wallet) > > OTOH, if you explained that a window with an ER rating greater than > "zero" would result in a net energy gain when placed in any compass > orientation (and the higher the number the better) ...and that a > window with a negative ER rating would be a net energy loser (more > negative = worse) ... I would say that 18 out of those original 20 > would have no trouble selecting the better window product. Unfortunately, you would probably be (how do we say that politely?) 'misleading' them. If the ER gives the 'right' message about which window is the best choice for a consumer whose house has a reasonable amount of thermal mass, south overhangs that allow full use of solar gains in the winter with reasonable shading in the summer, and she were planning to add windows to the south face of her house, THEN, it could not possibly, conceivably, by any stretch, even with Canadian logic, give the right answer to her next door neighbor who has no thermal mass, no overhangs, and who wants windows for a large north "glass wall." Sorry. Your beloved ER system takes perhaps a reasonable shot at averaging out the differences, so that it can give the right recommendation most of the time. I would bet you five times your 'Murrican' wager (in Canuck dollars, that'd be seven and half times) that no one - not the government sponsors of the rating system, not the enginoids who did the runs, not the window manufacturers who use this little gem to market their products - has ever ascertained what percentage of window purchases made through reliance on ER, have been the "right" choice for the consumer, and what percentage of the time the ER had caused the unsophisticated "people on the street" to choose the wrong window. > > Granted, a design professional would want to know what each of the > factors and co-efficients are... and perhaps futz around with them, > to make it *look* like he's actually doing something to earn his > design fees, ... but in the end, the result is the same. NOT!!!! > > Tsk, tsk, tsk. The Murrican penchant for needless complexification > of seemingly simple tasks rears its comical head again. It ain't so comical, BBRTP. It's a hell of a burden trying to right all the time. 'Spose we could just have another brewski, eh? {snip} > ... With all that practice you STILL can't get it right ? > Whassamattyou ANYWAY ? With all its foibles (and Mr. Mathis and others on the list who know me can vouch for the fact that I have not been hesitant to point them out), the HR and CR developed by NFRC for use in the civilized south, AT LEAST don't try to pretend that you get good information when you stir a window's thermal performance rating together with its solar performance, and come up with one number!!! > > There. That's my patriotic contribution to this month's Full Moon > Silliness. > [picture a bunch of quarter notes and half notes here since I don't know how to make them actually appear on the 'net] God bless America, land that I love, yadda, yadda yadda. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 02:13:17 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA28212 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:13:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA12501 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:12:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA19893; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:06:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:02:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA19481 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:01:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from xipe-totec.cacr.caltech.edu (root@xipe-totec.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA19475 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 02:01:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from angle.cacr.caltech.edu (angle.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.72]) by xipe-totec.cacr.caltech.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA09052 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:06:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801140706.XAA09052@xipe-totec.cacr.caltech.edu> X-Sender: mac@delilah X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:07:07 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: mac@cacr.caltech.edu (b. lamprecht) Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1213 Based on the recent threads residential development (house size, lot size, etc.) here are some brief excerpts from a brochure for a 1997 tour titled RICHARD NEUTRA: COMPRESSING THE FOOTPRINT, a tour focused on this early Modernist architect's celebration of the small house and his ideas on land use. This was a Los Angeles tour in Silverlake, where the Viennese-born architect lived. (Neutra had been a close friend of Rudolf Schindler while still in Vienna, studying with Adolf Loos and others ... He, like Schindler, was inspired by FLW's 1910 Wachsmuth portfolio.) The tour was sponsored by the Society of Architectural Historians, Southern California Chapter: ``QUESTION: HOW MUCH SPACE DOES IT TAKE TO LEAD THE GOOD LIFE? Apparently more and more. Writing in his book Urban Control: the Ecology of Fear, Mike Davis notes that ''the 1990 Census showed that metropolitan Los Angeles has the greatest discrepancy in the nation between household size and home size.'' Richard Neutra's European heritage may have created a mindset to create houses with a smaller footprint, but that sensibility was perfectly grafted onto his new milieu: ''A new, thinly spread, traffic-crazy town such as Los Angeles is threatened with a different kind of disaster -- something like elephantiasis -- endless outward expansion and dragging bulk of little vital advantage,'' he wrote presciently in Survival Through Design (1953-54). He envisioned a much more compact yet much more serene urban fabric. He argued that architecture could respond to a fundamental human need for nature while simultaneously being more efficient and resourceful vis-a-vis city services. ' However, those gains would only be meaningful if the architecture worked harder, provided more opportunities to communicate with gardens and air and sun and wind. A house was only truly functional if it created greater opportunities for the sensual meeting of human and his or her environment. Space, for Neutra, was not a formal abstract but physiological 'stuff' to be kneaded and mined. Geometries for the body were not Euclidean but ''up and down, right and left, forward and backward, far and near." (U.S.A. Tomorrow, Oct. 54, p. 75.) His was a subtle message: ''One of the most pressing architectural problems of the future, it seems to me, is to create physio-psychological room enclosures instead of achieving privacy by empty geometricity.'' Neutra never apologized for using a post-and-beam vocabulary filled with right angles, however. It was not only economical, reflecting the realities of materials and building trades, but in his hands was a plastic grammar, mutable and dependent on the ''mystery and realities of the site,'' as he titled his small, tenderly written book. The vocabulary was a means to an end -- the habitat. Instead he talked about the organic quality of Italian hill towns achieved by using similar materials and forms over a long time, refining a vocabulary with regard to both its immediate site and larger context: '' ... nobody ever seems to have lamented the monotony or uniformity of a tree, but our neighborhoods are found in need of ... 'relieved of monotony:' Artificial relief [is] sought in the diversity of the elements rather than in the comprehensive framework, and so each house in new suburbs [gets] its particular skin-deep style ..." 2. Notes on the VDL Research House II (1963, Richard and Dion Neutra) and its predecessor VDL Research House I built on the same site in 1932, which burned down in 1962: Perhaps Neutra could have been referring to this house, studio and guest house, three activities co-habiting a lot 60' x 70, when he wrote in 1951: "Most of us cannot afford a house of large area. Our self-service homes cannot well excel in impressive square footage. But they can and should in flexibility; multiple use should take advantage of every square foot, as the hours of the day pass and introduce one function after another. Every lot has its daily travel and passage under the sun, and we are on board and travel along.'' ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 08:31:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA12598 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:31:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA15440 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:30:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26573; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:24:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:19:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26211 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:19:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26207 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.25.64.232] (usr2a36.rut.sover.net [206.25.64.232]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA29526 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:24:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:24:53 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199801131933.NAA24442@glacier.binc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "GB List" From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Timber frame affordability Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1214 At 8:34 AM -0500 1/13/98, Chris & Ruth Koehn wrote: > >1. If one replaces wood joinery with steel connectors, the building is no >lnger a timber frame. It's a post and beam. My clients don't want to look >at big clunky metal plates holding their beams together. Besides, we >recently did a job in Toledo, where the metal plates spec'd by the >architect to replace wood joinery actually cost more than wood joinery. Just thought I'd add a comment on this particular issue. On a recent visit to the shop of Benson Woodworking, one of the more environmentally inclined designers there noted that using metal connectors greatly increases the potential reusability of the timbers in the future. With wood jointery, the end of each beam is not available for future reuse, and beam pockets in the middle also reduce strength. Metal connectors are also (usually) much easier to disassemble. They learned this from the experience of reusing timbers from the last century's buildings. Metal connections, while they may not be for everyone, do have their own integrity as structural and design components. And they need not cost a fortune. Nadav Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 10:52:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19333 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:52:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA20214 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:51:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01799; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:45:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:41:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01333 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:40:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01327 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:40:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA15076; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:45:37 -0800 Message-ID: <34BCDC97.2FE11D77@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 07:41:11 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: economics and environment (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1215 John Straube wrote: > John, > > I would like to carry on this conversation if you are willing and > actually care to hear another point of view, Ouch. I feel patronized... Generally I think my submissions show a certain amount of care and willingness to listen - I think my previous response to your post was a response to the content of your post, and it was one I had to give some thought to. > since I am wiling to hear a > good argument that suply and demand curves dont work, the pricing > resouces restricts or encourages use, etc. I have had this debate with > many people. The problem in most of your rebuttal/comments was that you > assume that we cannot price things like pollution. There is evidence about the potential equitable relationship of supply to demand and as you say most of it (in theory) has to do with issues related to unrestricted or uncontrolled supply and usage. It could be said that the mechanisms that affect 'true' supply and demand are artificial and if a true marketplace existed it would not be the case but as I said before such potential scenarios are largely a matter for 'faith' i.e. not grounded in historical or cultural practice. What is grounded in a millennia of production and trade is a system to take care of one aspect of our needs - the use of resources. The organization and management of those resources or the land however is another identifiable system. The bulk of the concern in my previous comments related to the amount of control ascribed to economic or marketplace activities. The marketplace may be able to give an economic value to pollution but can it responsibly identify what pollution is and is it in its best interest or our best interests to give that role to the marketplace? The marketplace is a valid and necessary system, I will not argue that because trade is a part of our history and 'currency' as one of the systems that deals with our needs but it is not the system (both historically and in current manifestations) that safeguards our existence. That system has always been government in whatever forms that may take. I can paraphrase Jane Jacob's discussion on this to some extent. She maintains that economic systems and systems of government have radically different systems of morals and values and by example the virtues of honesty and loyalty as an individual have a different meaning and significance for that individual in the marketplace. This is not to say that the marketplace is immoral or demoralizing but simply that the rules and values that ensure the operation of one cannot simply be shifted with any success to the other. An example of contradictory values might be government run businesses that are not by marketplace standards 'efficient' or are in other words wasteful of resources. Or another example is the strategies used commonly in business for economic gain that might be considered deceitful, e.g.. concealment of worth, debt default, control of information. There is integrity in each system. The problem and my critique is that it becomes too easy to ascribe inappropriate values and purpose to one system - or to become so much part of one system that we compromise the function of the other. > At the risk of starting a whole new thread, I will start from am extreme > example. It may be difficult to stomach, but we aso put a price on your > life. When designing a building, the codes typically value a death or > serious at about $2 million (this varies all over the place). Before you > react with outrage, what would you have us do? Consider life beyond cost? > Then I could not build, becuase it is impossible to build a building that > will never fail. But, if I put a price on life (which varies with > societies values, and is higher in peace than war, in western countries > than eastern, etc.), I can design each building to the same level of > safety and not waste resources on one building while wasting (e.g valuing > at $100000) lives in another. This is a very rough, phlisophical > discussion so dont get hung up on the last pennies of the numbers I use. Again the marketplace can work with a $value but the concept and origin for that value resides elsewhere. It is in the interests of economics that that value be low and in societies moral interest that it be high. The result is a compromise. Note the level of extra security and safety incorporated in wealthy housing compared to housing for the poor.What happens when government tries to apply commercial standards. Jane Jacobs gives an example of the NY transit police who gave bonuses for increased output from their officers. The result was a larger number of false arrests. What will be the result of the change in insulation code in Ontario to R12. There may be a scientific basis for that change but is the evidence solid enough to warrant the change or is a commercial value taking precedence? And what segment of societies houses will this change affect. You could say that this will make cheaper housing more available - but will that housing be cheaper if there is an increased energy cost to maintain it? This is getting a bit long so I'll cut it off now. My surprise with the consensus on this issue had to do with how much seemed skewed toward only one set of values and how critical the consensus was towards the role government plays. A lot of criticism was leveled at former communist countries and their practices of government interference that resulted in environmental degradation. Our own examples of commercial interference in environmental values is no less severe. Terry brought our interest to the latest in the Alpine Ozone saga - where the government had to step in because the marketplace values that the firm employed stepped beyond the communities best interests. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 11:18:44 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20277 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:18:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27558 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:17:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03773; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:12:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:07:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03228 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:07:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03220 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:07:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24262; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:13:37 GMT (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:12:13 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Air Spaces and Claddings To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: cmuler@ncat.org, DAEly@aol.com, birch@javnet.com X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199801140408.XAA15435@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1216 > Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:49:37 +0000 > From: "Catherine M. Muller" > Subject: GBlist: Air Spaces and Claddings > > < > To: , Subject: > Re: GBlist: wraps Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 20:58:50 -0500 > > - -----Original Message----- > From: DAEly@aol.com > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 10:15 PM > Subject: GBlist: wraps > > > One concern I have (in theory) is fire safety. > > For the furring to work it must have ventillation, and if there is > >ventillation between flamable surfaces there is the possibility for > >fire to travel. Does anybody have any experience with this? > > I have worked on buildings with 1" of foam/furring strips/clapboards. > It could create a chimmney effect. Fire stops anyone...>> > > Sorry for the long delay in reply. I forwarded your note to Building > Science Corp. Joe Lstiburek responded in a fax to me, and asked that > I forward it to you. > > "Rainscreens (that small gap between the drainage plane and the > cladding) are not meant to ventilate. The functions of the space in > order of order of importance, are: > > 1. *Drainage, drainage, drainage* > > 2. Capillary break > > 3. To act as a receptor for thermally driven moisture (from exterior > and interior) in vapor form > > 4. Air pressure relief, i.e. pressure equalization > > 5. Moisture removal by air-flow > > "Number 5 is the least important - you do not want or need much > airflow. Note tha tbrick has a 1" air space behind it, by code. > Fire tests show that the air space should be less than 1" - 3/8" to > 3/4". In commercial high rises, the cavities are "broken" at every > floor, i.e. compartmentalized with height for fire control reasons. > > "It could become a fire problem if people design the airspace for > actual air flow. (A bad idea.) The thinner the space, the less > movement. I really like it about 1/2 inch." > > So says Joe. Hope this helps. While I strongly agree with points 1 and 2, the order and emphasis needs to be questioned. In any absorbent cladding, (wood, brick) the capillary break function ir required during every rain event, but drainage is only necessary once in a blue moon (OK, maybe yearly). A clear air space is important and I think just as important as drainage for some claddings. Drianage will stave off immediate disaster, but a large amount of water is stored in all wall systems that cannot be drained. This water must be remoed by other mechanisms (primarily diffusion and ventilation) or freeze-thaw damage, paint failure, corrosion, and fungal growth will set im. I cannot support point 3 on the grounds that it does not agree with physics (unless he means something else). The air space does not have a sufficient capacity to store vapour. It is important as part of a ventilation drying system though. We have been studying pressure equalization and ventilation for some time, with funding from CMHC (they have published two of our reports) and industry. Pressure equalization is the least important function of the air space, and I have been constantly surpiseded at the importance of ventilation (as we term air flow through air spaces) to the performance of test walls. I can provide a whole range of field measurements and theory as to why ventilation can be an important and useful drying mechansim, but this is a long answer. In summary, therefore, IMO point 4 should be point 3, and point 5 should be 4. However, the suggestion that 1/2" airspaces are a reasonable answer is impractical for some systems. In brick veneer contruction, an airpsace of 1/2" becomes completely filled with mortar. If you wish to fulfill the functions of the air space, you must provide more air space (min 1.5", the Brick Institute of America even recommends 2"). For wood cladding, one normally needs at least a 3/4" spec to achieve a 3/8" clear air space becuase of obstructions from strapping, building paper, and other clearance. The use of 1" nominal lumber appears to work well in my limited experience with this cladding. One advantage of small air psaces is that they limit the amount of wind washing -- this is a small benefit, since wind washing can be more easily solved in other ways. Fire test indeed show that spaces more than about 3/8 to 1" can become fire chimmneys. Therefore, break the spaces on every floor or two with sheet metal flashing (good practise anyway). the entire building system must be consdered of course. I have built ventilated cladding systems in Germany and neigbouring countries with 50 to 75 mm of air spaces which are rationally designed to be ventilated (as opposed to N.A. where we just hope they are). The German's are notoriously paranoid about fire safety, and have a death rate about 1/4 that of America. Air spaces are not a fire problem if you design appropriately. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 13:09:36 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25548 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:09:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA29484 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:08:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11365; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:02:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:57:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA10860 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:56:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10855 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.105.143] (usrts2p143.port.net [207.237.105.143]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA29961 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:01:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801141801.NAA29961@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Air Spaces and Claddings Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 13:04:53 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1217 John Straub wrote >A clear air space is >important and I think just as important as drainage for some claddings. John In lieu of the above, would you recommend the use of an actual 3/4" clear air space as opposed to the various nylon drainage mats or grooved insulation boards on the market? BTW this issue is discussed in the Dec 1997 Energy Design Update in relation to EIFS envelopes. Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 14:02:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA27914 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:02:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA17143 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:01:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14600; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:56:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:52:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14111 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:52:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14106 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:52:02 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NOI06741; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:56:14 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:34:21 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Flames Message-ID: <19980114.130703.3638.0.sbtauto@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-7,9-12 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1218 Mama says, "Don't start none and there won't be none." Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:10:53 -0800 "Mike O'Brien" writes: >Hi, all-- > >I was really shocked at Richard Moore's flame directed at Dona. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 14:03:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA27947 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA17420 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14693; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:57:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:53:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14186 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:52:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14182 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:52:48 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NOJ06741; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:56:14 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:54:12 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: heat load calcs Message-ID: <19980114.130703.3638.1.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <199801140413.UAA06622@mail.cwo.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-4,7-8,12-13,17-24,26-43 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1219 Malcolm, As mentioned in a previous post on this thread many HVAC contractors use canned formulas for determining system size. As Nehemiah seems to point out it probably would not pay to ask a contractor to step outside his comfort zone and apply precision to his efforts. I guess my point would be that canned formulas apply OK to cube based structures. What if your structure is truly unique? If your structure is a dome, a large thermal mass or just a very stupid house (like mine) what does this do to the contractor's canned forumlas? I have asked the contractor we work with and he doesn't care to guess and he was in too much of a hurry to entertain the thought very long. I think I saw smoke coming out of his ears as he rushed off to the next job. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:06:36 -0800 "Nehemiah I. Stone" writes: >Malcolm, > >Of course size is important. That's not the reason for their flip or >nasty >(depending upon your region) retort to your request. It's just that >(a) >"Time is money," and if they don't have to "waste" their time running >calculations for you, then you represent a higher profit margin to >them, >(b) they feel that they can get it "close enough" relying on their >years of >experience (or if they are relatively new, their 'teacher's years of >experience - generally, the old fart will have told him to stand at >the >curb and hold his hand at arms length; if he can cover up the house, >then > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 14:23:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28412 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:23:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA24277 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:21:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15825; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:16:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:11:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15407 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:11:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15398 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:11:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14483; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:17:59 GMT (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:16:36 EST From: John Straube Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: economics and environment (fwd) To: John Salmen cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <34BCDC97.2FE11D77@cow-net.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1220 On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, John Salmen wrote: > John Straube wrote: > > I would like to carry on this conversation if you are willing and > > actually care to hear another point of view, > Ouch. I feel patronized... Generally I think my submissions show a certain > amount of care and willingness to listen - I think my previous response to your I am sorry if you took it the wrong way. I was being quite up front and meant no insult. > > since I am wiling to hear a > > good argument that suply and demand curves dont work, the pricing > > resouces restricts or encourages use, etc. I have had this debate with > > many people. The problem in most of your rebuttal/comments was that you > > assume that we cannot price things like pollution. > > There is evidence about the potential equitable relationship of supply to > demand and as you say most of it (in theory) has to do with issues related to > unrestricted or uncontrolled supply and usage. It could be said that the > mechanisms that affect 'true' supply and demand are artificial and if a true > marketplace existed it would not be the case but as I said before such potential > scenarios are largely a matter for 'faith' i.e. not grounded in historical or > cultural practice. What is grounded in a millennia of production and trade is a > system to take care of one aspect of our needs - the use of resources. The > organization and management of those resources or the land however is another > identifiable system. > > The bulk of the concern in my previous comments related to the amount of control > ascribed to economic or marketplace activities. The marketplace may be able to > give an economic value to pollution but can it responsibly identify what > pollution is and is it in its best interest or our best interests to give that > role to the marketplace? No it can not. this was the center of my point of view. WE must define the values. You, I and the entire voting public needs to change their value system, and then use a type of market economy to get the results. In my ideal view, society sets goals/rules/values, government enforces them, and everybody acts through their own personal wishes but is directed by the economics. We need the economics to implement because we canno forsee all the minutae or comprehend the vast complexity of large systems, like the world has become. > historically and in current manifestations) that safeguards our existence. >That system has always been government in whatever forms that may take. As you can see from my previous para, I agree. > I can paraphrase Jane Jacob's discussion on this to some extent. She maintains > that economic systems and systems of government have radically different systems > of morals and values and by example the virtues of honesty and loyalty as an > individual have a different meaning and significance for that individual in the > marketplace. Back to my contention that we define the values that the economic system is to optimize. > This is not to say that the marketplace is immoral or demoralizing I think this is the crux of the difference. People beleive that an economic system has "bad" morality. It is immoral in the true sense of the word. The economic system has no morals, but the carrots and sticks in the system can be decided on by the consensus morality of the people. > but simply that the rules and values that ensure the operation of one cannot > simply be shifted with any success to the other. An example of contradictory > values might be government run businesses that are not by marketplace standards > 'efficient' or are in other words wasteful of resources. Or another example is > the strategies used commonly in business for economic gain that might be > considered deceitful, e.g.. concealment of worth, debt default, control of > information. > There is integrity in each system. The problem and my critique is that it > becomes too easy to ascribe inappropriate values and purpose to one system - or > to become so much part of one system that we compromise the function of the > other. > > Again the marketplace can work with a $value but the concept and origin for that > value resides elsewhere. Yes, in the value that the society puts on it. If that value meets the will of the people, the system "works". Now we must merely eductae the people as to what we beleive are the "correct" morals. > It is in the interests of economics that that value be > low and in societies moral interest that it be high. The result is a compromise. Why a compromise. Economics are not animate, it does not have interests. >What will be the result of the change in insulation code in Ontario to R12. Well it aint happening. Why? The science did support it, but people, not the economics, argued that the externalities, e.g. costs not presently accounted for in the system, were not part of the equation (hence the system is not at fault, but the price of energy and pollution). Most municiplalites are still requiring old insulation levels. > This is getting a bit long so I'll cut it off now. My surprise with the > consensus on this issue had to do with how much seemed skewed toward only one > set of values and how critical the consensus was towards the role government > plays. I, for one, beleive government has a strong role to play. They are supposed to reflect the peoples values and goals, then ensure that the goals are properly implemented and enforced. Of course, a lot of government does nothing of the sort, but this is erely a reason to improve government, not reduce or eliminate. >A lot of criticism was leveled at former communist countries and their > practices of government interference that resulted in environmental degradation. > Our own examples of commercial interference in environmental values is no less > severe. Terry brought our interest to the latest in the Alpine Ozone saga - > where the government had to step in because the marketplace values that the firm > employed stepped beyond the communities best interests. The communist countires destroyed the environment, not because of govt interference, but becuase a govt set quotas for production without regard for cost. Therefore energy was provided regardless of cost to produce steel reardless of cost. There are a lot of enviro-friendly and even sustainable things that come out of prcing energy higher, and I think the same wil happend when we price pollution (the limited real life examples we have of this show that it works). Our system does not work for some of the same reasons. We are not pricing properly and therefore we overprice labour and underprice pollution. But the waste is much less than the command system, and we at least have a system that can be easily modified. IMO, the fundamental issue is to have people change their values so that environmental good and damage can politically be included in pricing. So long as Americans value a Suburban truck more than environment they will never allow a 20% tax on energy that wold make such a vehicle prohibitively expensive and well-insulated home cheap. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 16:31:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA04088 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:31:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA05312 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:30:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22193; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:24:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:19:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA21602 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:19:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.165]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21593 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:19:37 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:23:41 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Heat Load Calcs Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1221 On the same thread - Just heard of an addition to a house where they can't even keep 60 F in a bedroom. I asked a contractor this morning about it (he came in to double the size of the hydronic baseboard heater in the room), and he said "The guy that put it in probably didn't run his heat loss calculation." So much for rules of thumb. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 16:35:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA04190 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:35:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA06466 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:33:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22493; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:28:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:24:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22084 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:24:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.169]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22065 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:24:00 -0500 (EST) From: NMBlues Message-ID: <4cb619bd.34bd2c95@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:22:27 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Research Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1222 I was writing a note to someone about something totally different and came up with the above topic. The research arm of the building industry, in general, appears to me woefully small and is mostly funded by people-who-make-the-products through Underwriters Laboratory and other "seals of approval". It has been my experience that compared to other industries, independent research is hard to come by---that is why Environmental Building News itself is such a salve, they do some research without taking advertising dollars to do so. I know of only four or so research projects related to the Building Industry [I try to keep up-to-date] currently being funded in my area---and I am in what is known as the Research Triangle where computers, minerals, LED's, drugs, etc. get tons of funding from many sources. There is an architecture professor at NC State studying steel stud walls with brick veneer and moisture content (even he has had some funding from product sources), the Solar Center Home also at NC State [a plug for them-- http://www.ncsc.ncsu.edu/ ], the Advanced Energy Corporation (funded by the Department of Energy and [Arnie Katz correct me if I am wrong] various electrical/gas companies and, finally, a local architect who is always performing experiments with solar and other interesting things. Proposals for discussion: 1. I like the different opinions/experiences that surface about many issues on this site---sometimes it is hard to sort fact from opinion. I wonder if we could reach some consensus about how we might summarize topics of discussion (area of world/country/state, prevailing loading/weather conditions, indigenous conditions, tally of this concern/experience/opinion versus that one, etc.) that we happen to be personally interested in (it could be more than one postee doing the summary) and having peer review of the summary by people (interested in peer review on that topic). Is that taking this too far? I guess I just yearn for more coherent endings to some of the trains of thought and I liked what Chris of MCsquared (sp?) did with the window stuff as a starter and what Bion has done at several junctures. We all know EBN and the other moderators do not have time to do this work. 2.What is the scope of local research and what is it about in the areas that you postees live?---how applicable is it to other areas or is it indigenous? In a way, we all perform research for our own personal use every time we design or build a building or building system. But I am interested in a more "scientific method" type of research approach where there are several systems being tested against fairly well know performers/parameters. This is hard to do because there are so many varibles---user, wind, water, gravity, time, etc. I think I propose discussion about how to go about and possible accomplish item number one above because it seems to me that we could begin to rank order some things that we as professionals in the "sustainable/green/energy efficient" building industry see as needing research, with an accumulation "experiential data" as a starting point for the researchers. Well, that's the beginning---I hope someone bites; I will offer to summarize this thread (with anyone else who volunteers---I do not promise to be quick as my energy level is fairly low right now) if you postees submit enough for discussion. Dona Stankus, AIA Raleigh, NC ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 18:42:04 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11760 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:42:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA16151 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:40:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA28508; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:35:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:30:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27909 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:29:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA27898 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:29:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.238] (ka4-238.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.238]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA15828 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:34:49 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:34:31 -0500 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Subject: GBlist: Demand Radiant Floor Heat Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id SAA27900 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1223 Howdy! As some of you are aware, I'm planning a radiant earthen floor, inside of a well-insulated straw bale structure with lots of thermal mass. I'm planning a propane or natural gas demand heater for hot water needs. I'll be getting a heater which is capable of accepting pre-warmed water and warming up only as far as it needs to go, because eventually I may install solar hot water pre-heating (this will be expensive, since I'm in northern New England and I'll need a heat-exchanger). My question: is there any reason that I can't heat the floor with the same heater? I envision two pipes attached to the heater, one going in and one going out. Each has a Y on it. One of these branches comes around, through the radiant tubing, to meet a branch of the Y on the other side of the heater, thus forming a closed loop. The other output Y goes to hot water taps. The other input Y comes from the external water source. When I want to charge the floor with heat, I turn two valves which close the loop and flip the switch on a small in-line pump. (I might even be able to run the valves and pump on the same circuit, so that when the pump goes on, the valves switch the flow to form the closed loop.) I wait awhile (the amount of time would be something I learn as I go) and the household does without hot tap water during that time. Then I switch everything back. I ran this idea by my plumber, who said that it seemed feasible, except that he pointed out that there must be a mechanism to mix the hot water from the heater with cooler water from the loop, so that the circulating water would not be too hot for radiant floor. He sketched such a loop with a few minutes of thought. It works with a thermostat which demands less heat from the line coming from the heater as the temperature in the loop heats up. The advantage of this would be that I would only have to buy one heater, instead of two. Any thoughts? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 19:20:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA13396 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:20:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA27605 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:19:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29968; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:13:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:09:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA29445 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:09:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29441 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:09:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA29993; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:13:56 -0800 Message-ID: <34BD53BD.A1C9280F@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:09:34 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag CC: Green Building List Subject: Re: GBlist: Demand Radiant Floor Heat References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1224 You don't need to disrupt the flow of hot water to the house. A mixing valve takes care of the adjustment for floor temperature. There are installations that use one boiler the problem is overall efficiency of the unit used (summertime usage especially). If you are incorporating air exchange and using a radiant floor system (i.e. no ductwork required) I would look at air to water heat recovery units and see how that might be integrated. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Speireag wrote: > Howdy! > > As some of you are aware, I'm planning a radiant earthen floor, inside > of a well-insulated straw bale structure with lots of thermal mass. I'm > planning a propane or natural gas demand heater for hot water needs. I'll > be getting a heater which is capable of accepting pre-warmed water and > warming up only as far as it needs to go, because eventually I may install > solar hot water pre-heating (this will be expensive, since I'm in northern > New England and I'll need a heat-exchanger). > > My question: is there any reason that I can't heat the floor with the > same heater? I envision two pipes attached to the heater, one going in and > one going out. Each has a Y on it. One of these branches comes around, > through the radiant tubing, to meet a branch of the Y on the other side of > the heater, thus forming a closed loop. The other output Y goes to hot > water taps. The other input Y comes from the external water source. When > I want to charge the floor with heat, I turn two valves which close the > loop and flip the switch on a small in-line pump. (I might even be able to > run the valves and pump on the same circuit, so that when the pump goes on, > the valves switch the flow to form the closed loop.) I wait awhile (the > amount of time would be something I learn as I go) and the household does > without hot tap water during that time. Then I switch everything back. > > I ran this idea by my plumber, who said that it seemed feasible, except > that he pointed out that there must be a mechanism to mix the hot water > from the heater with cooler water from the loop, so that the circulating > water would not be too hot for radiant floor. He sketched such a loop with > a few minutes of thought. It works with a thermostat which demands less > heat from the line coming from the heater as the temperature in the loop > heats up. > > The advantage of this would be that I would only have to buy one > heater, instead of two. > > Any thoughts? > > -Speireag. > > 0>>>>>>(--------------------- > Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) > Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. > Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig > agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 19:47:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA14711 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:47:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA05674 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:46:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01622; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:41:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:35:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA00953 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:35:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00948; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:35:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.190] (ka3-190.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.190]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id TAA15979; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:40:28 -0500 X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:30:49 -0500 To: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List From: Speireag Subject: GBlist: Insulating Cement Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAB00950 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1225 Hallo, all! Still thinking. Helps keep the brain warm when the temperatures are below -15°C, as now... Okay, everyone agreed (including my architect) that putting the footings on top of the rubble trench would work, so that's what I'll be doing. I fume a little a the extra time and work we took to make sure that we could get them down there, but that's water under the bridge, small in the grand scheme of things, and no one assured me that I'd get through this without making mistakes. :) So... it seems that the general consensus is that EPS or XPS foam is remarkably effective stuff, and not necessarily a bad environmental thing if used right, considering how much petroleum use it can offset. So, I have this really heavy roof design, supported on eight posts, each of which is going to sit on a cement footing 3 feet by 3 feet by 1.5 feet (because they were handy). What kind of foam can I put under them which won't become so much uninsulative paste when the load is applied? How about under the grade beam? Also, I'm sure that the foam under the foundation and whatnot will stay in place when I weight it down sufficiently. But how do I get it to bond to the outside of the grade beam? Finally, on top of a rubble trench foundation, and with insulation under the whole structure, is there any payoff to extending the perimeter insulation further below grade than the bottom of the grade beam? I can't think of any, and it would seem to be logistically difficult... -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 20:04:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA15254 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:04:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA10289 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:03:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02854; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:58:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:54:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA02319 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:53:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02311; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:53:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA00924; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:58:45 -0800 Message-ID: <34BD5E3F.84BEE87E@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:54:23 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag CC: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List Subject: GBlist: Re: Insulating Cement References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1226 The insulation can go under the earthen floor and on top of the piers. If you do not have sufficient depth there are a number of types of EPS rated for different loads. You will have to work out the size of pad and the type of foam based on the particular load. There are some web sites from manuf. that give the capabilities of the various types. Depth or width of perimeter insulation depends on the thickness of insulation used. If you are wrapping the slab and walls in 6"EPS then I no further depth is really required. Anything less and there will still be perimeter heat loss which will decrease by the width of the perimeter skirt. Might be usefull at this point to work out some good heat loss calculations on your floor and roof (building too) and balance out some kind of scenario that could be succesfully integrated with a solar heating application. Potential energy cost savings over time with a solar application and heavy insulation might work out as the most cost effective if you can afford the upfront costs involved. There are a number of eastcoast exclusively solar houses about. Check out the work of Norman Saunders. Best John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Speireag wrote: > Hallo, all! > > Still thinking. Helps keep the brain warm when the temperatures are > below -15°C, as now... > > Okay, everyone agreed (including my architect) that putting the > footings on top of the rubble trench would work, so that's what I'll be > doing. I fume a little a the extra time and work we took to make sure that > we could get them down there, but that's water under the bridge, small in > the grand scheme of things, and no one assured me that I'd get through this > without making mistakes. :) > > So... it seems that the general consensus is that EPS or XPS foam is > remarkably effective stuff, and not necessarily a bad environmental thing > if used right, considering how much petroleum use it can offset. > > So, I have this really heavy roof design, supported on eight posts, > each of which is going to sit on a cement footing 3 feet by 3 feet by 1.5 > feet (because they were handy). What kind of foam can I put under them > which won't become so much uninsulative paste when the load is applied? > How about under the grade beam? > > Also, I'm sure that the foam under the foundation and whatnot will stay > in place when I weight it down sufficiently. But how do I get it to bond > to the outside of the grade beam? > > Finally, on top of a rubble trench foundation, and with insulation > under the whole structure, is there any payoff to extending the perimeter > insulation further below grade than the bottom of the grade beam? I can't > think of any, and it would seem to be logistically difficult... > > -Speireag. > > 0>>>>>>(--------------------- > Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) > Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. > Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig > agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 20:09:08 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA15346 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:09:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA11516 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:07:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03241; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:02:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:58:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA02808 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:58:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02800 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:58:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA01047; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:02:46 -0800 Message-ID: <34BD5F30.E775EBA5@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:58:24 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: NMBlues CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Research References: <4cb619bd.34bd2c95@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1227 NMBlues wrote: > IProposals for discussion: > 1. I like the different opinions/experiences that surface about many issues > on this site---sometimes it is hard to sort fact from opinion. I wonder if we > could reach some consensus about how we might summarize topics of discussion > (area of world/country/state, prevailing loading/weather conditions, > indigenous conditions, tally of this concern/experience/opinion versus that > one, etc.) that we happen to be personally interested in (it could be more > than one postee doing the summary) and having peer review of the summary by > people (interested in peer review on that topic). Is that taking this too > far? I guess I just yearn for more coherent endings to some of the trains of > thought and I liked what Chris of MCsquared (sp?) did with the window stuff as > a starter and what Bion has done at several junctures. We all know EBN and > the other moderators do not have time to do this work. > I like the concept. I have for a while wanted to put together a web page that focuses less on myself than on areas of building research that I am involved with or interested in. I had hoped that it would serve to pull some resources together and be an area for review. It was intended to be comprehensive and deal with technologies, materials, etc within broad categories, i.e. water, air, energy, etc. Water for example would be dealt with as an input and an output over a broad spectrum. Effect of water on materials, effect of materials on water, requirements for water (usage, heating, systems of distribution and collection, etc.) requirements of water (treatment, purification, conservation, etc.) The nice thing about facilitating the distribution of information on the web is the ability to create paths for information via links.Sorry I'm wandering off. I wanted to suggest that various summations of discussion areas from this forum might be put onto independent sites with either the source material or links to further information on the web. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. > 2.What is the scope of local research and what is it about in the areas that > you postees live?---how applicable is it to other areas or is it indigenous? > In a way, we all perform research for our own personal use every time we > design or build a building or building system. But I am interested in a more > "scientific method" type of research approach where there are several systems > being tested against fairly well know performers/parameters. This is hard to > do because there are so many varibles---user, wind, water, gravity, time, etc. > I think I propose discussion about how to go about and possible accomplish > item number one above because it seems to me that we could begin to rank order > some things that we as professionals in the "sustainable/green/energy > efficient" building industry see as needing research, with an accumulation > "experiential data" as a starting point for the researchers. > > Well, that's the beginning---I hope someone bites; I will offer to summarize > this thread (with anyone else who volunteers---I do not promise to be quick as > my energy level is fairly low right now) if you postees submit enough for > discussion. > > Dona Stankus, AIA > Raleigh, NC > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 20:45:36 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA16186 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:45:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA21072 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:44:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04494; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:39:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:35:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04197 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:34:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04192; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:34:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id UBD23110; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:39:13 EST To: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu Cc: strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 18:00:53 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Roof Ventilation Message-ID: <19980114.182141.3406.0.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-4,6-9 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1228 another roof question for the group: does the roof over a raftered vaulted ceiling need to be vented? the house in mind is having some leaks due to the vent located here and one contractor suggested removing it. also- would anyone have an idea of how long a ridge piece (cedar roof) should last? thanks in advance- Samantha M. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 22:27:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA21349 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:27:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA22098 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:26:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA07942; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:17:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07601 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.170]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07588 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:16:45 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <4ab3d72c.34bd805c@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:19:53 EST To: JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: More political, rhetorical, absolutely useless ideas Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1229 John Straub, Your latest post on economics, environment, government and values was perfect. You hit the nail exactly on the head. Our answer is not in eliminating the fundamental systems that enhance individual initiative, free choice and responsive systemic feedback mechanisms, but rather in making those systems work better. What we need are pricing mechanisms that recognize the true costs of services, materials and technologies and prices them accordingly. The accounting "externalities" of conventional economics that encourage environmental pillage and plunder are within the power of current democratic systems of government to address in a free market economy. What we lack most urgently is the will of an educated and caring electorate. You are absolutely right. All economic systems are without a moral ethic. From a moral perspective, free markets are not inherently better or worse than any other distribution system, except in that they enhance personal initiative, freedom and democracy. They are unquestionably the most efficient distribution system yet devised, as they maximize the energy and creativity of all participants. It is the government that should and does define the rules of any economic game. In a democracy those rules will change when we present compelling and persuasive reasons to change them. It is a cop out to blame the democratic system because the majority does not yet agree with our perspective. Again we must look to ourselves. Our current government, despite the green rhetoric is failing miserably. A prime example: the current trade deals: Nafta, Gatt, etc. are a major step in the wrong direction for the environment, for human freedom and for democracy itself. Read Marjorie Kelly's editorial in the last issue of "Business Ethics" if you want to get really scared by what our "green friends" in the Clinton administration are negotiating for us now. The biggest threats to the environment are presented by economic systems operating outside of any rules of governance and outside democratic feedback mechanisms with localized controls. Global financial and corporate systems have evolved more quickly and outgrown the governing mechanisms that should keep them in check. This is a dangerous situation for the environment, for democratic forms of governance, for the operation of truly free markets and for the financial systems themselves. In a guest editorial in some magazine I read last month, George Soros of all people, persuasively argued that the only way to maintain an equitable, responsible and sustainable global financial system is with a global governing system. He's personally been the catalyst for enough stock market crashes, currency devaluations and national financial emergencies around the globe that he should surely know. Like those that argue that we've never given Marxism a fair chance, I would persuasively argue that it might be time to try freedom and democracy instead. Wouldn't it be nice if along with financial bureaucrats, a global governing solution such as that proposed by Soros could also mandate universal human rights, freedom, individual economic opportunity and democratic governance. Must we always bow to the Chinese, Saudi, Indonesian and other dictators that argue democracy and human rights are imperialist bourgeois western conspiracies that threaten their cultural integrity (not to mention their buddies protected monopolies). Wouldn't it be great if implementing our own governing ideals were the conditions we had set for rescuing Kuwait from Saddam Hussein, or if the IMF set those conditions now for rescuing the South Koreans from their own corrupt government. It seems a shame to trade away those opportunities for a quick petroleum fix or a few more cheap industrial goods. The United Nations and other existent world bodies are surely no substitutes for global democracy. Boy am I getting far from building issues or what. Unfortunately it's all related. Every system needs rules. The fewer, clearer and less complicated the rules, the better the system works. The real trick is establishing a clear vision that inspires the rules. The big questions to be addressed by the environmental movement are not revisiting yesterdays debates over command economies vs market economies. George Carlin effectively ended that debate with the simple observation that people are just more careful with their own good stuff than they are with other people's crap. We'll be considered as quaint and irrelevant as a thatched roof if we keep kicking that dead horse. (heresy in this crowd, I know) Rather we need to effectively address questions of scale, control and political power. Anyone frustrated with the systems of governance in the successful economies of the western world should realize that we all recognize democracy is the worst system of government imaginable, except for the alternatives. Likewise, markets are the worst mechanisms in the world for distributing goods and services, except for all the other solutions that have ever been proposed. But these systemic imperfections shouldn't compel us toward unachievable mirages rather than effective solutions. Just as green politics is becoming relevant, let's not spin our wheels and alienate the "silent majority" with dreams of reinventing the command economy of some 19th century Marxist utopian fantasy. Rather, our political energy would be most productive in imagining effective ways to eliminate government subsidies for oil refineries, nuclear power, clearing old growth forests and other environmental sins while simultaneously establishing taxes and pricing mechanisms that reflect the true costs of all the "externalities" that economists currently take off the balance sheet. The world bank is currently developing ecologically sound mechanisms to measure the real wealth of nations on a macro economic level. We more urgently need systems that work on a market level. Paul Hawkins book and others are a start. Fresh ideas would be most helpful. Thank you John for yours. Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 22:36:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA21555 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:36:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA25788 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:35:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA08335; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:29:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:25:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08098 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:25:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08094 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:25:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id VAA0000020414; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:30:26 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980115033240.006c7294@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:32:40 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Dona's Proposal regarding developing a summary of consensus Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1230 "Proposals for discussion: 1. I like the different opinions/experiences that surface about many issues on this site---sometimes it is hard to sort fact from opinion. I wonder if we could reach some consensus about how we might summarize topics of discussion (area of world/country/state, prevailing loading/weather conditions, indigenous conditions, tally of this concern/experience/opinion versus that one, etc.) that we happen to be personally interested in (it could be more than one postee doing the summary) and having peer review of the summary by people (interested in peer review on that topic). Is that taking this too far? I guess I just yearn for more coherent endings to some of the trains of thought and I liked what Chris of MCsquared (sp?) did with the window stuff as a starter and what Bion has done at several junctures. We all know EBN and the other moderators do not have time to do this work. " ----------------------------------- Excellent suggestion, but might be a whole heck of a lot of work and it might take out the interesting spontaneity of these notes. On the topics that interest me I normally copy these to my files and make sense of the whole at a later time. However, if enough think it useful, as one of the laypeople on this list, I can volunteer to summarize and edit (LOTS of editing needed for some of these postings). It will be necessary to come to conclusions on discussions, a process that rarely happens here. Some consensus will have be taken regarding which topics are worthy. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 22:42:21 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA21689 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA28418 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:41:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA08881; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:35:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:31:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08444 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:31:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.177]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08440 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:31:25 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <6ab7232.34bd83b7@aol.com> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:34:13 EST To: Ibe404@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: NESEA Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1231 In response to private requests: To contact NESEA, the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association: Phone 413-774-6051 Fax 413-774-6053 Address 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301. Tom Thompson: Executive Director Doug Minor: Building programs E Mail: buildings@nesea.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 22:42:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA21701 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:42:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA28663 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:41:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA08932; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:36:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:32:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08485 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:32:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from harborside.com (exim@harborside.com [204.214.110.225]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA08481 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:31:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from p199.rs0.harborside.com ([204.214.111.199]) [204.214.111.199] by harborside.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0xsg0l-00074I-00; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:30:32 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Compact Houses Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 19:37:34 -0800 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Steve Hussey To: "Green Building List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1232 So many people have asked for my booklist, unfortunately some of them are in Japanese and you couldn't order them here, but here's the best of the rest: American Books - Not Really Small Houses and not that Cheap Small House Designs Edited by Tremblay & Von Bamford $19.95 ISBN 0-88266-966-4 New Compact House Designs Don Metz $17.95 ISBN 0-88266-666-5 Japanese - Highly Recommended (In English) Small Spaces - Azby Brown $19.95 ISBN 4-7700-2084-8 A Japanese Touch for Your Home - Koji Yagi $19.00 ISBN 4-7700-1662-X (lots of ideas for screens, fitted shelves etc) ...and one that arrived today... Tiny, Tiny Houses Lester Walker $29.95 ISBN 0-87951-271-7 This has designs down to about 8 by 10 feet! One of the best is 258 SF...the plans for which are featured in Mother Earth News Magazine for $30. This is a really excellent book and the first Amercian book that covers really compact designs. (Most US books think that 1250 SF at $100 per SF is living lean and mean.) Another resource is to find books on fitting out yachts...they make incredible use of space. Try visiting boat & RV shows. I got a lot of ideas for storage after poring over several RV's. After building a compact house a year ago I have learnt a lot of lessons and hope to incorporate these into a new design. I have started designing a 500 SF cottage with 390 SF floor space plus 110 SF of loft sleeping space. THis could sleep two adults full-time plus two guests or with a small extension (that intergates into the design, after construction if necessary) that could sleep two adults/children. The design has a footprint of 14 x 28 (approx). The final 'kit' will incorporate: Site selection guide Building instructions Full set of detail drawings Perspective views Paper templates to make a scale replica from artists foam board. Parts list with typical costs Cutting sheets - built with stressed skin panels the entire house could be cut off-site and shipped to site as a kit. Alternative arrangements Optional sleeping extension/hobby room/conservatory Optional dining extension Sources for all components project planning timeline Materials for the basic design should be available for under $2,500. Estimated construction time would be under two weeks for moderately skilled people. Most of the work can be completed with hand or simple power tools except for lifting the roof panels into place. The walls and roof have R values around 38 - 39. Heating requirements are minimal. Various window options are available...minimal for really cold climates...through to maximum for milder areas. There is a good size kitchen area, breakfast bar and shower/toilet. This is not a primitive cabin! I'd like to put this project together as a complete 'paper' package that would enable someone to build this cottage almost as a kit. Is anyone interested? What do people think it's worth in $ for such a complete design package? Comments? Regards, Steve Hussey 'The Inner Dimension' CD & 'The Inner Dimension' SDK "Never confuse information with knowledge." ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 22:48:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA22584 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:48:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA00988 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:47:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09279; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:41:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:37:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08987 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:37:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08983 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:37:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dial-16-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.16]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA17153 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:42:41 -0500 Message-ID: <34BD85AD.2B91@together.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:42:37 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Demand Radiant Floor Heat Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1233 Message-ID: <34BD8574.26E0@together.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:41:40 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag Subject: Re: GBlist: Demand Radiant Floor Heat References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Joshua Assuming I correctly understand your concept... the domestic water would be diverted for radiant floor heating when valves switch, man or auto, and dedicated booster pump circs through underfloor radiant piping. Exposing your nice closed-loop radiant floor piping to "open" water, meaning fresh water rich in oxygen and other precipitating stuff, will result in scale build-up inside the floor piping. I always avoid, at all costs when possible, exposing a hydronic system to open air or frequent make-up water. Exceptions, like cooling towers, need beaucoup chemical treatment and maintenance. My fear would be depreciating performance over time. Other issues come to mind, but the above would make me start looking at Plan B. Tom Anderson = Speireag wrote: > = > Howdy! > = > As some of you are aware, I'm planning a radiant earthen floor, ins= ide > of a well-insulated straw bale structure with lots of thermal mass. I'= m > planning a propane or natural gas demand heater for hot water needs. I= 'll > be getting a heater which is capable of accepting pre-warmed water and > warming up only as far as it needs to go, because eventually I may inst= all > solar hot water pre-heating (this will be expensive, since I'm in north= ern > New England and I'll need a heat-exchanger). > = > My question: is there any reason that I can't heat the floor with = the > same heater? I envision two pipes attached to the heater, one going in= and > one going out. Each has a Y on it. One of these branches comes around= , > through the radiant tubing, to meet a branch of the Y on the other side= of > the heater, thus forming a closed loop. The other output Y goes to hot= > water taps. The other input Y comes from the external water source. W= hen > I want to charge the floor with heat, I turn two valves which close the= > loop and flip the switch on a small in-line pump. (I might even be abl= e to > run the valves and pump on the same circuit, so that when the pump goes= on, > the valves switch the flow to form the closed loop.) I wait awhile (th= e > amount of time would be something I learn as I go) and the household do= es > without hot tap water during that time. Then I switch everything back.= > = > I ran this idea by my plumber, who said that it seemed feasible, ex= cept > that he pointed out that there must be a mechanism to mix the hot water= > from the heater with cooler water from the loop, so that the circulatin= g > water would not be too hot for radiant floor. He sketched such a loop = with > a few minutes of thought. It works with a thermostat which demands les= s > heat from the line coming from the heater as the temperature in the loo= p > heats up. > = > The advantage of this would be that I would only have to buy one > heater, instead of two. > = > Any thoughts? > = > -Speireag. > = > 0>>>>>>(--------------------- > Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) > Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. > Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgr=ECobh sibh dhomh anns a' Gh=E0idhlig > agus tapadh leibh airson mo Gh=E0idhlig a cheartachadh. > = > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 14 23:07:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA23065 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:07:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA06442 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:06:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10169; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:01:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:56:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA09664 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09650; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:56:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23944; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:55:01 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:55:01 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Steve Hussey Cc: M J Epko , GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: PFA: a health concern? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1234 Steve: As anyone will know who has had "hands-on" experience with the above in concrete, stablized earth, etc., it is so fine and light that it may pose a serious health concern during handling. In addition, perhaps the suppliers should be more specific about what "negligible" radioactivity (from coal power plants) means? Until we get better answers, we will not use it, not even in foundations (even if it has several useful structural redeeming characteristics). Perhaps it will be strictly regulated or baned like asbestos? Does anyone know more about the issue of radioactivity? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Steve Hussey wrote: > > In the UK they use Pulverised Fuel Ash (PFA) in concrete mixes to > 'lighten the load'. (I believe it's also called fly ash.) PFA is a > by-product of coal combustion in power plants. the power plants used to > pay companies to haul it away - to them it's a waste product. PFA is very > fine and very light. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 08:16:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA00549 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:16:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA02833 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:15:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA22614; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:10:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:06:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA22348 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:06:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from atl1.america.net (ns2.america.net [199.170.121.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA22343 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:06:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from newcomb-boyd.com ([204.252.122.97]) by atl1.america.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23116 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:10:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801151310.IAA23116@atl1.america.net> From: "Richard M. Jones" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:10:21 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Re: coal plant radioactivity X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1235 Jorg wrote: >In addition, perhaps the suppliers should be more specific about >what "negligible" radioactivity (from coal power plants) means? >Until we get better answers, we will not use it, not even in >foundations (even if it has several useful structural redeeming >characteristics). Perhaps it will be strictly regulated or baned >like asbestos? Does anyone know more about the issue of >radioactivity? I do know that per Kw of electricity produced more radiation is produced(released) by a coal power plant than by a nuclear power plant, although this issue has never had much attention from the media. Since the coal plant releases the radiation into the atmosphere, the affects are not as noticeable as when there is a problem at a nuclear facility. This may give you some idea of the amount of radiation that may be contained in the ash. Richard ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 08:54:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA01390 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:54:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA08640 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:53:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23940; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:48:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:44:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA23347 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:43:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23323; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:43:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA156724; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 06:48:19 -0700 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 06:48:19 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Energy Efficiency Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: Sustainable Buildings: Insurance against Weather Aberrations? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1236 Would sustainable buildings (homes, commercial & office buildings) have reduced the burden on people and the economy in eastern Canada and the NE US? How and why? What should we do about it, if anything? Any worthy precedents? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 09:01:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01611 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:01:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA01654 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA22210; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:02:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:57:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA21895 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:57:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.172]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21891 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:57:25 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <2e4b36dc.34be08b1@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:01:35 EST To: sac28787@saclink.csus.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1237 In a message dated 1/13/98 2:22:02 PM, sac28787@saclink.csus.edu wrote: <> Every hill has its silver bottom DH ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 09:10:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA03061 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:10:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA11439 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:08:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24649; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:03:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:59:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24323 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:59:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24319 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12177 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:05:39 GMT (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:04:18 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Air Spaces and Claddings To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199801150300.TAA10215@italy.it.earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1238 >John Straube wrote: >> >A clear air space is >> >important and I think just as important as drainage for some claddings. cdodge wrote: > In lieu of the above, would you recommend the use of an actual 3/4" clear > air space as opposed to the various nylon drainage mats or grooved > insulation boards on the market? I guess I meant that a capillary break is just as important as drainage. EPS is not a great capillary break since it can absorb quite a bit of water in some situation. Grooved EXPS however, is fine: it is a good capillary break (because it has closed cells). Mineral wool (hydrophobic) is also good as a break. The nylon mats are fine as long as they are backed by a capillary breaking building paper or housewrap. Depending on the design, they can actually hold lots of water in the mesh, just like you would when you blow bubbles through a ring. The reasons for an airspace behind EIFS is ventilation, and I dont think this is practical or even that necessary (see the my interview in EDU). Also remember -- it is exceedingly unlikely that water will pass through cracks in the lamina of the EIFS. Water penetration failures are almost always due to leakage at joints, interfaces, etc., like windows, service penetration, quoins, etc. Proper design of these penetrations in conjunction with a drained airspace may be sufficient to control rain however. (It is ironic that if you design a window detail well in an undrained wall, it works and that if you design the detail well with a drained system it works too! Some conclude that thisis why you should use a drainage plane) In many of these situtations a drainage plane will not help! (e.g. windows often leak into the studspace or behind the EPS). In these cases, you must remove water by means other than drainage, e.g. vapour diffusion and capillary transport. Since the latter is unlikely, the presence of a poly vapour barrier on the inside greaty reduces the ability of the wall to dry and its removal will go a lot further to ensuring EIFS moisture control than the inclusion of an airspace or draiange plane. (Use your common sense: these recommendations are climate sensitive, but they are valid in the Carolinas, where I have done some study). For some interesting test results see The Journal of Thermal Insulation, Vol. 20, Jan 1997, "Barrier EIFS Clad Walls: Results from a Moisture Engineering study", by the IRC. > BTW this issue is discussed in the Dec 1997 Energy Design Update in > relation to EIFS envelopes. I am intersted in this but I have not yet received my copy of EDU! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 09:19:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA03342 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA13460 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:18:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25338; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:08:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24845 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:08:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24833; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:08:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12812; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:14:59 GMT (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:13:37 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: PFA: a health concern? To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" cc: Steve Hussey , M J Epko , GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1239 On Wed, 14 Jan 1998, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Steve: As anyone will know who has had "hands-on" experience with the above in > concrete, stablized earth, etc., it is so fine and light that it may pose > a serious health concern during handling. PFA is finer than cement and hence must be handled carefully to prevent dust from forming. If using it a lot, use a face mask. Of course, flour has the same problem. > > In addition, perhaps the suppliers should be more specific about what > "negligible" radioactivity (from coal power plants) means? Until we get better > answers, we will not use it, not even in foundations (even if it has several > useful structural redeeming characteristics). Perhaps it will be strictly > regulated or baned like asbestos? Does anyone know more about the issue of > radioactivity? In Germany you can get radioactivity results from a PFA or gypsum manufactuers (since Gypsum can also be made from coal plants). In the results I saw, the radioactivity was very low, lower than the control sample measured from a random sample of soil. If the coal is not dangerously radioactive, neither will the PFA be. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 09:25:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA03473 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:25:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA14617 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:24:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25800; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:19:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:15:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25428 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:14:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25420 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:14:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA142530; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:18:35 -0700 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:18:35 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Richard M. Jones" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: coal plant radioactivity In-Reply-To: <199801151310.IAA23116@atl1.america.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1240 Richard: Further to your post of below, do you or anyone else have any references on the above? _____________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Richard M. Jones wrote: > > I do know that per Kw of electricity produced more radiation is > produced(released) by a coal power plant than by a nuclear power > plant, although this issue has never had much attention from the > media. Since the coal plant releases the radiation into the > atmosphere, the affects are not as noticeable as when there is a > problem at a nuclear facility. This may give you some idea of the > amount of radiation that may be contained in the ash. > > Richard > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 09:43:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA03910 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA17420 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:42:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26763; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:36:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:32:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26360 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:32:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26356 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:32:23 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:23:10 EST To: rath9362@uidaho.edu, RodLambert@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1241 In a message dated 1/13/98 3:18:28 PM, rath9362@uidaho.edu wrote: <> This discussion now reminds me of a discussion I had with Kirkpatrick Sale at a bioregional Continental Congress in the 80's. Kirk's position is that the way to relieve the unsustainability of New York City, specifically, is to move the population into the "underpopulated" countryside. Folks who live there may not think it is so underpopulated, of course. I contended and contend that this would be a disaster. What we now call New York, what was sold by non-resident Indians as a practical joke on the rival tribe who lived there, was once one of the most beautiful, biologically productive, Paradisial places on Earth. Now it is crap. It is not the place, it is the people and their world view and behavior that make it crap. Spreading the population around would be smearing (well, talking to a New Yorker I said schmearing) the city all over upstate so that every part of New York becomes a biological black hole. I'm not sure that we can redress the way people treat the Earth, theit attitudes toward their resource base, their attitudes (if any) toward personal responsibility, and their knowledge or lack thereof of how to provide for themselves by policies set forth on the greenbuilding list. As long as people think that money is real and that a regard for soil, air, water, food, shelter and Nature herself is "unrealistic," we are better encouraging such folks to shelter together and damage as little as possible of what remains of our planet's natural systems. I'm always happy to respond to invitations from those people in cities who think differently, to share a bit about how cities can become more responsible for their effects on the planet, but in the vast majority of cases, when the workshop happens, people are more interested in socializing and "networking", whether I be in New York, London, or Toronto. Well, I got a pretty supportive response the one time that I spoke in Mexico City, but what is left to save there? People, but no resource base. Not one species of native tree survives in the city parks due to air quality alone. I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss these problems, but we need to be careful about glib solutions. Bucky was not really an enviornmentalist and didn't understand the consequences to the planetary life-support systems by his proposals. The rest of us can be more humble. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 09:57:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04215 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:57:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA20049 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:56:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27652; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:50:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:46:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27269 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:46:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from radiks.net (root@sr.radiks.net [205.138.126.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27259 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:46:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from xcon356 (dial181.radiks.net [207.3.67.65]) by radiks.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA08264; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:41:40 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801151441.IAA08264@radiks.net> From: "Tom Berthold" To: , "Jean Gallagher" Cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: SIPs, SUBS, ATTIC HEAT Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:47:49 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1242 My thought on this is that you would do well to pump from the upstairs to the basement in the in the winter, and reverse the motor to pump from the basement to the upstairs in the summer. The seasonal reversal would probably be a marginal improvement in comfort, the main thing being just the circulation itself. ---------- > From: malcolm.scott@which.net > To: Jean Gallagher > Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: Re: GBlist: SIPs, SUBS, ATTIC HEAT > Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 4:38 PM > > Sorry for the slow response, and I don't know if there have been any > other replies. I am thinking of doing the opposite. Blowing the air > from downstairs floor level up to the top of the house to force the hot > air down and reverse the natural flow. > Malcolm Scott > > Jean Gallagher wrote: > > > And, perhaps this is dumb, but would I be wasting my time trying to > > devise a system to pump the heated air in my attic down into the house > > during the > > winter, to supplement the furnace? > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 10:12:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05383 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:12:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA23379 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:11:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28740; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:05:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:01:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28080 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:00:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.170]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28072; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:00:40 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:03:31 EST To: dana@pacbell.net, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, terrain@cow-net.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Public compost toilets Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1243 Nice post, Dana. Readers should also be aware that the same group is one of THE authorities on the construction of high-mass stoves for space heating. These are incredibly efficient but require very precise flue design and construction. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 10:12:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05385 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:12:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA23384 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:11:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28738; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:05:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:01:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28116 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:00:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28105 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:00:56 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <52a4dec2.34be252c@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:03:04 EST To: berthold@radiks.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: SIPs, SUBS, ATTIC HEAT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1244 In a message dated 1/15/98 2:55:14 PM, you wrote: <> I've used this low cost stategy with a quiet thermostatically controlled fan to move excess heat from sunroom ceilings to finished basement spaces on several occassions. It works well and customers love it. Lot's more practical than just dumping the excess heat from the poorly conceived sunspaces I used to build. Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 10:22:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05637 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:22:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA25598 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:20:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29365; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:15:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:11:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29062 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:11:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29055 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:11:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.214] (pm3a24.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.214]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA16325 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:16:27 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:01:59 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: What does "plenum" mean? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1245 I'm hoping some of you erudite engineers can help me with a question: Does the term "plenum" refer to any cavity, above a ceiling or below a raised floor, or does it only apply if the cavity is being used for air distribution? Please respond either to the list or to me personally--if I get a lot of personal responses I'll report on the results. Thanks, Nadav ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 10:32:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05904 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27838 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:31:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00087; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:26:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:21:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29684 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:21:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from Netcube.ntwrks.com (Netcube.ntwrks.com [192.154.76.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29678 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:21:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from newmicronpc (ppp30.ntwrks.com [192.154.76.34]) by Netcube.ntwrks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA11301; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:27:24 -0500 Message-ID: <34BDE55F.6904@ntwrks.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:30:55 +0000 From: Wayne Jones Reply-To: wayne_jones@ntwrks.com Organization: Brown and Jones, Architects X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nadav Malin CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: What does "plenum" mean? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1246 Hello Nadav: the North Carolina General Construction Code defines plenum as "an air compartment or chamber to which one or more ducts are connected and which forms part of an air distribution system". Wayne Jones -- Brown and Jones, Architects 16 N. Boylan Ave. Raleigh, NC 27603 (919) 831-2625 FAX 831-2626 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 10:35:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05969 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:35:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA28551 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:34:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00426; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:29:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:24:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29837 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29831 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:24:21 -0500 (EST) From: healthyp@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA21320 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:29:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:29:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from nyc-ny18-24.ix.netcom.com(205.186.166.152) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma021259; Thu Jan 15 09:28:43 1998 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-Id: <1998115103555541@> Subject: GBlist: GBList: reading materials X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.25, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1247 I have been asked to put together a short reading list for people to get aquainted with green building. I have a list of over 200 books, but I am not sure which are the "must-reads". Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance -Robyn Heller EcoSmart Healthy Properties ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 10:36:53 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05999 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:36:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA28836 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00597; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:30:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:26:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00009 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:25:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29995 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:25:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA12153; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:31:04 -0800 Message-ID: <34BE2AAD.81754A54@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:26:37 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: economics and environment Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1248 Well the gap narrows. The only real point I question is the statement that "Economics are not animate, it does not have interests" and that you say that economics has no system of values or morals. There is definitely a morality to economics and that is the potential for conflict when a commercial morality or code of conduct has the potential for becoming the conforming morality for society at large. My suspicion here is that economics is being thought of as a science. Science has been largely an offspring of commerce at least it thrives in strongly economic periods. There are methods of viewing economics that could be considered scientific in the same way that political science is a discipline that seems to pride itself on a certain amount of rigour (should say rigor) but my view of economics is that it is very animate. My other suspicion with this view is that it instills economics with some values that it is a pure thing in itself. I'll have to think of some examples, the only one that comes to mind of immediate interest to greenbuilding is the problem in development of LCA tools which should be in theory a simple application of some notion of pure economics but in practice has had significant problems in weighting data i.e. accounting for 'economic interests' at any given point which to me means that economics is very animate, is very difficult to pin down or be predictive about. It also brings up the question for me as to how prescriptive economics can be for environmental benefit. I think that our concern for the environment could/should have a substantial impact on the practice of economics. I don't think we should allow the practice of commerce or economics (meaning the decision making process that is germaine to economics) to have any impact on our care (meaning decision making process about) the environment. There are two threads in greenbuilding - one is technology driven and therefore derives much of its impetus from both commerce and science the other is part of a more philisophical tradition (Thoreau, etc.) that has formed a large part of the environmental ethos. What is interesting about this forum is that it is one of the few places that contains elements of both - sometimes in conflict over similar goals because of the systems that informs them. Best for now John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 10:44:44 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06200 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:44:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00647 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:43:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01097; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:38:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:34:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00746 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:34:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00742 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:33:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.38.253.17] (ts11port17.port.net [207.38.253.17]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA23970 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:39:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801151539.KAA23970@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Demand Radiant Floor Heat Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 10:42:09 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Green Building List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1249 Speireag wrote >As some of you are aware, I'm planning a radiant earthen floor, inside >of a well-insulated straw bale structure with lots of thermal mass. I'm >planning a propane or natural gas demand heater for hot water needs. I'll >be getting a heater which is capable of accepting pre-warmed water and >warming up only as far as it needs to go, because eventually I may install >solar hot water pre-heating (this will be expensive, since I'm in northern >New England and I'll need a heat-exchanger). > > My question: is there any reason that I can't heat the floor with the >same heater? I envision two pipes attached to the heater, one going in and In addition to Tom Andersen's reservations, I believe domestic and hydronic heating waters should be kept separated, via a water to water heat exchange, for health code reasons as well as those Tom mentioned. Also I believe the theory behind radient floor heating is that the massive floor is constantly being trickle charged by relatively low temperature hot water and balancing the equation by slowly radiating that heat into the air in the room. If you were to be constantly interrupting that charge by turning off the hot water flow, you would be having to recharge the concrete mass every time before it again began transfering heat into the room because of the low temperatures involved. Correct me if I am wrong, but with low temp radient floor systems to be efficient you get the mass up to speed and keep it there for the duration of the heating season. (Kind of like) big rig diesels not being turned off at every truck stop, they turn the engine on in New York and turn it off in LA. (: There are combo or integrated hot water heaters specifically designed to be used for both heating and domestic hot water . Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 11:09:04 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07384 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:09:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA07252 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:07:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02534; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:02:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:58:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01990 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:57:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801151557.KAA01990@solstice.crest.org> Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:56:34 -0800 From: John Salmen To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: economics and environment (fwd) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1250 Well the gap narrows. The only real point I question is the statement that "Economics are not animate, it does not have interests" and that you say that economics has no system of values or morals. There is definitely a morality to economics and that is the potential for conflict when a commercial morality or code of conduct has the potential for becoming the conforming morality for society at large. My suspicion here is that economics is being thought of as a science. Science has been largely an offspring of commerce at least it thrives in strongly economic periods. There are methods of viewing economics that could be considered scientific in the same way that political science is a discipline that seems to pride itself on a certain amount of rigour (should say rigor) but my view of economics is that it is very animate. My other suspicion with this view is that it instills economics with some values that it is a pure thing in itself. I'll have to think of some examples, the only one that comes to mind of immediate interest to greenbuilding is the problem in development of LCA tools which should be in theory a simple application of some notion of pure economics but in practice has had significant problems in weighting data i.e. accounting for 'economic interests' at any given point which to me means that economics is very animate, is very difficult to pin down or be predictive about. It also brings up the question for me as to how prescriptive economics can be for environmental benefit. I think that our concern for the environment could/should have a substantial impact on the practice of economics. I don't think we should allow the practice of commerce or economics (meaning the decision making process that is germaine to economics) to have any impact on our care (meaning decision making process about) the environment. There are two threads in greenbuilding - one is technology driven and therefore derives much of its impetus from both commerce and science the other is part of a more philisophical tradition (Thoreau, etc.) that has formed a large part of the environmental ethos. What is interesting about this forum is that it is one of the few places that contains elements of both - sometimes in conflict over similar goals because of the systems that informs them. Best for now John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 11:13:13 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07831 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:13:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA08531 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:12:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03002; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:06:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:02:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02423 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:01:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02415 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:01:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.53] (1Cust53.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.53]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA04746 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:06:56 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801151606.IAA04746@italy.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Compact Houses Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 08:10:11 -0000 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1251 More books on small houses. Small Houses for the Next Century Duo Dickinson Compact Home Plans for for Straw Bale and Superinsulated Construction Rick Peterson and Eric Hart Both these are available through the Iris Catalog. You can see the catalog online at . We also have at least two new books on the topic on deck for the upcoming Spring catalog. By the way, if anyone would like to recommend a book that we should be selling, please let me know. I have just a week more to decide which titles will be included. So many books and so little space! >So many people have asked for my booklist, unfortunately some of them are >in Japanese and you couldn't order them here, but here's the best of the >rest: -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 12:09:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10072 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:09:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA23810 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:08:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03119; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:03:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:58:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02723 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:57:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02718 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:57:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.214] (pm0a29.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.129]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA03493; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:14:38 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1998115103555541@> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:16:20 -0500 To: healthyp@ix.netcom.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: Re: GBList: reading materials Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1252 EBN's annual list of "selected readings" just went out in the mail this week to our subscribers. It contains about 150 books and periodicals, with brief descriptions of each, and full contact information. If you are not a subscriber to EBN, you can purchase a copy of this "supplement" for $12. Bruce Sullivan at Oikos also sells many of the best titles on his Web site (www.oikos.com) and via a catalog. Both forms contain descriptions of the titles. Yours, Nadav Environmental Building News 802 257 7300 At 9:29 AM -0600 1/15/98, healthyp@ix.netcom.com wrote: >I have been asked to put together a short reading list for people to get >aquainted with green building. I have a list of over 200 books, but I am not >sure which are the "must-reads". Any help on this matter would be greatly >appreciated. Thanks in advance > >-Robyn Heller >EcoSmart Healthy Properties ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 12:21:08 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10442 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:21:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA26700 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:19:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03800; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:14:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:09:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03382 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:09:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03378 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:09:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ppp-206-170-29-95.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.95]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id JAA15727; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:14:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BE4473.326F@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:16:35 -0800 From: George Kamburoff Reply-To: gkam@pacbell.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-PBWG (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: "Richard M. Jones" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: coal plant radioactivity References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1253 AS far as I know, those studies that show coal plants produce more radioactivity than nukes do not include the uranium mining, which produces radon gas and radioactive particulates, still blowing off mountains of tailings in this country. george kamburoff ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 12:48:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA11198 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:48:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA04241 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:47:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05608; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:41:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:37:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05071 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:37:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from sysx.systronix.net (sysx.systronix.net [204.209.166.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05059 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:37:19 -0500 (EST) From: smacleod@internode.net Received: from pool1-4.internode.net (pool1-4.internode.net [198.161.229.180]) by sysx.systronix.net (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ka109002 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:42:20 -0700 To: "'Jorg D. Ostrowski'" , "'GreenBuilding Listserver'" , "'Energy Efficiency Listserver'" , "'Strawbale Listserver'" Subject: GBlist: RE: EEBA-L: Sustainable Buildings: Insurance against Weather Aberrations? Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:49:01 -0700 Message-ID: <81904B406A22D1119DC100AA000A3F0F997E@JULIUS> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal In-Reply-To: <81904B406A22D1119DC100AA000A3F0F018BE8@JULIUS> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1254 Jorg said... >Would sustainable buildings (homes, commercial & office buildings) have >reduced the burden on people and the economy in eastern Canada and the NE US? >How and why? What should we do about it, if anything? Any worthy precedents? >Jorg Ostrowski ...and here's some more food for thought. How comfortable are we that public utilities have all their ducks in a row for January 1, 2000? Will their computer systems, burdened by the "Year 2000 Problem," be able to keep the electricity, gas, and water flowing? No, I don't think the sky is falling. As a computer systems professional, my estimate of the risk of outages remains low. However, the potential impact, on individuals and businesses, has been clearly illustrated by those stories out of Montreal. Speaking as a potential buyer of a green/EE home (I'm eavesdropping on the lists to educate myself), the events in northeastern North America the past week, on top of my evaluation of the Y2K risk, is driving me to consider these technologies. How many others are doing the same? Is this a chance for the professional members of this list to promote their ideas, both commercially and politically? Stuart Macleod smacleod@internode.net Calgary, Alberta, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 13:02:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11629 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:02:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA07871 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:00:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06491; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:55:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:50:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06118 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06114 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:50:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mnsinc.com (a0055.culpeper.mns.net [206.239.106.55]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA21109 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:55:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34BE77C2.D62671BF@mnsinc.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:55:31 -0800 From: khassan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: heat load calculations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1255 Thanks to all who replied to my request for info. I've come to the conclusion that if I do the calcs myself I won't be any better or worse than I would be I used a contractor who used the "canned formula". I recently came across a book by Charlie Wing..".The Visual Handbook of Building and Remodeling" that has a chapter on heating with a worksheet to calculate heat load. I think that with the info from the List and this book I'll be able to do a creditable job of calculating the heat load. Special thanks to Bion, Catherine, Ian, Nehemiah, and Steve for your imput. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 13:54:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14050 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:54:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA22102 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:53:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09368; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:44:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08984 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:43:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08980 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:43:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dial-211-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.211]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA07710 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:49:07 -0500 Message-ID: <34BE5A21.1558@together.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:49:05 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Flakes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1256 The snow has started. :-) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 14:02:45 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA14324 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:02:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA24035 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:01:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10019; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:56:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:52:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA09606 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:51:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09596 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:51:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dial-211-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.211]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA07962 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:57:06 -0500 Message-ID: <34BE5C01.436@together.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:57:05 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Snow Flake Error Message References: <34BE5A21.1558@together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1257 To GB List Members: My regrets about sending the wrong e mail message to this list, again. I use elctric erasers, too. Tom Anderson Tom Anderson wrote: > > The snow has started. > > :-) > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 14:22:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16099 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:22:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA28848 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:21:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11120; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:16:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:12:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10789 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:12:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10781 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:12:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA14050 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:17:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:17:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from asy6.vineyard.net(199.232.92.46) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma014005; Thu Jan 15 14:16:38 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Eco-industrial Park Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1258 The town of Londonderry NH and Stonyfield Farm Yogurt Co. are collaborating to create an Eco-Industrial park on 100 acres in Londonderry. They have been thinking about this for several years and are ready to move forward - they have staff, funding, and committed developers. Walt Cudnohufsky and I have been hired to facilitate a one day planning session with 60 -70 people from a variety of disciplines and interest groups, on Feb 5. Does anyone know of any other Eco-Industrial Parks operating or in planning stages, and, if so, anyone involved I could talk to (I'll define Eco-Industrial Park, for the purposes of this query, as: just what it sounds like). Thanks in advance for any assistance you can give. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 14:46:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16649 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:46:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA04756 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:45:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12672; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:40:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:36:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12048 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:35:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12033 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:35:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA14558 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:41:08 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 15 Jan 1998 11:40:09 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: FREE HEAT To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id OAA12041 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1259 Tom & Fred, Now you have gotten my interest up again. I wonder if any formal (or informal) studies have been done regarding heat transfer from sunrooms or attics to lower portions of houses. I know thermo-controlled duct fans with self-activated gates are available relatively cheap. My thought is, though, that you would probably have to include this in new construction. My only other concern would be the recirculation of moisture. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 15:04:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17186 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:04:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA08888 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:03:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13759; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:57:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:51:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13267 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:51:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13263 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 14:51:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA39722; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:55:00 -0700 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:55:00 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: healthyp@ix.netcom.com Cc: sesci , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: GBList: reading materials In-Reply-To: <1998115103555541@> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1260 Further to the above, I would also highly recommend a publication called: "The Canadian Renewable Energy Guide", available from the Solar Energy Society of Canada (SESCI, see above). Many case studies and a list of products and services in Canada. A very useful and practical publication. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 healthyp@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > I have been asked to put together a short reading list for people to get > aquainted with green building. I have a list of over 200 books, but I am not > sure which are the "must-reads". Any help on this matter would be greatly > appreciated. Thanks in advance > > -Robyn Heller > EcoSmart Healthy Properties > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 15:38:47 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA18902 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:38:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA18212 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:37:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15449; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:32:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:27:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA14948 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:27:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.177]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA14944 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:27:35 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:28:31 EST To: gkam@PACBELL.NET, jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca Cc: RMJ@newcomb-boyd.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Re: coal plant radioactivity Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1261 In a message dated 1/15/98 12:18:24 PM, gkam@pacbell.net wrote: <> Also there the issue of ground water contamination from uranium mining, including such massive bodies of water as the Ogalala Aquifer which extends under 5 western states. However, this is a contest which it is well to avoid. I uranium puts out a lot of radioactivity, then we don't need more from coal. In fact we can so without the uranium pollution, too. It is time to move away from energy-at- any-cost policies, he said,preaching to the choir. Dan Hemenway ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 15:58:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19338 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:58:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA23489 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:57:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16644; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:52:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:48:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16314 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:47:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16307 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:47:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PhV29038; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:51:34 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: minimul wood stove Message-ID: <19980115.144639.4887.0.strawboss94@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4 From: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:51:34 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1262 I am searching for info on cooking stoves which burn about 25% to 50% less wood than traditional cooking in Africa. As most know deforestation is a critical problem in many African countries. It must be low tech and cheap. Someone tells me there is a metal folding thing which may be along this line but I have no particulars. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 16:08:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA19612 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:08:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA25982 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:07:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA17498; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:01:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:57:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16862 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:57:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16858; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:57:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id QoX29038; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:01:28 EST To: strawbale@crest.org Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: plans for block machine Message-ID: <19980115.145719.4887.3.strawboss94@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 7 From: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:01:28 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1263 A while back someone mentioned a place to get plans for a low tech earth block machine. Please post me directly if you have the source for something like this. For a low budget mission, plans would be of enormous possibility as delivery of any goods in many foreign countries is at best sporatic. Once plans can be secured, assembly or construction is much more plausible in the African country of my interest than importation of an expensive machine and all that would entail. . Thanks in Advance. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 16:10:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA20032 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:10:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA26576 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA17926; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:04:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:59:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17110 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:59:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA17102 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:59:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA18122; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:04:33 -0800 Message-ID: <34BE78D5.7A76EE35@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:00:05 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: [Fwd: PFA: a health concern?] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------332023EE546F1E740217C157" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1264 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------332023EE546F1E740217C157 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------332023EE546F1E740217C157 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <34BE65F2.409FC917@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:39:30 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Subject: Re: PFA: a health concern? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Further information on PFA usage. Vaughn uses fly ash as the material for their 'stone' lined hot water tanks. Material was supposedly certified for use but do not know what aspect certification covers. Interesting to know what other products PFA has been incorporated in. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Steve: As anyone will know who has had "hands-on" experience with the above in > concrete, stablized earth, etc., it is so fine and light that it may pose > a serious health concern during handling. > > In addition, perhaps the suppliers should be more specific about what > "negligible" radioactivity (from coal power plants) means? Until we get better > answers, we will not use it, not even in foundations (even if it has several > useful structural redeeming characteristics). Perhaps it will be strictly > regulated or baned like asbestos? Does anyone know more about the issue of > radioactivity? > _________________________________________________________ > Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > _____________________________________________________ > On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Steve Hussey wrote: > > > > In the UK they use Pulverised Fuel Ash (PFA) in concrete mixes to > > 'lighten the load'. (I believe it's also called fly ash.) PFA is a > > by-product of coal combustion in power plants. the power plants used to > > pay companies to haul it away - to them it's a waste product. PFA is very > > fine and very light. --------------332023EE546F1E740217C157-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 16:13:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA20495 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:13:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA27167 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:12:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18274; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:06:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:01:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA17463 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:01:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from cerberus.nga.com (root@nga.com [198.68.22.250]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA17448 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:01:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from nga.nga.com (nga [192.168.1.10]) by cerberus.nga.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA27060 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:06:37 -0800 Received: by nga.nga.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA17773; Thu, 15 Jan 98 13:06:41 PST Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 13:06:41 PST From: jim@nga.com (Jim Roy) Message-Id: <9801152106.AA17773@nga.nga.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: annual passive design Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1265 Greetings to the greenbuilding list... A couple of years ago, I read an article in Mother Earth News about an earth sheltered house with a twist. An umbrella of foam insulation and plastic sheeting just below the ground surface was extended to a radius of about 20 feet from the structure. The house had a modest solar exposure and was in direct thermal contact with the surround earth. The net effect of coupling the house with this very large dry earth thermal mass was to creat a thermal cycle in the mass that was 180 degrees out of phase with the climate - warmest in the winter, coolest in the summer, with a temperature swing of only a few degrees. I'm convinced that such a design is workable, but have a number of question that this group might have some insight into. First, does anyone know of any performance data on such "annual passive" buildings? This house requiered a LOT of foam insulation. Any ideas on a lower impact alternatives? And then there's the energy cost of all that concrete. The planet might come out ahead if I just lived in a tent & burned wood. Thanks, Jim Roy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 16:14:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA20562 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:14:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA27557 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:13:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18442; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:08:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:03:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA17736 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:03:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu (0@eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17723 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin103.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.113]) by eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu with SMTP (8.8.6/8.7.1) id NAA21236; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:08:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BE7AA8.5C79@uidaho.edu> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:07:52 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John R. Abrams" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco-industrial Park References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1266 While researching for my masters thesis on Recycling and Reusing Building Materials a couple years back I had a conversation with David Cobb of Bechtel Research and Development in San Francisco regarding their work in the area of "industrial symbiosis." While their work is mostly regional in scope, the Brownsville, Texas Regional Industrial Symbiosis Plan for the "economic exchange of waste and by-product streams" might be of interest to you. I'm sure there are other projects also. Last I spoke with David (Oct. '96) Brownsville and others were still in the early stages, but perhaps there's some "field" data available now. Try contacting David Cobb at dacobb@bechtel.com or Marie McDermott of the Brownsville Economic Development Council at broedc@aol.com Good luck, Kurt Rathmann Moscow, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 16:26:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA20904 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:26:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA00423 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:25:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA19264; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:19:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:15:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA18870 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:15:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA18856 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:14:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from wiley-coyote.ampsc.com (wiley-coyote.ampsc.com [207.102.161.133]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03437; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:23:16 -0800 Message-ID: <34BE7CA7.E6C@ampsc.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:16:39 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding Listserver , Permacltur Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1267 Permacltur wrote: > > In a message dated 1/15/98 3:42:42 PM, you wrote: > > << > Why everyone ignores, readily available, controls, to reduce existing or > contemplated densities, which have already proven terminally harmful and > irreversible, is rather amusing, except for the tragic results which > continue. > > Land Use is the key to ecological and environment friendly sustainable > development, and easily attainable, by increasing the 'green space' > requirements in all developments, reduce the buildable footprint at > ground level. > > Moving population and population growth to under populated areas is an > ever present release valve for the congested densities in todays' city > models. > > The land use densities in the under populated areas should not mirror > the densification practices which have lead us to where our population > problems are today. > > Richard.>> > > Richard: > > This just destroyes more land. People have to change, then housing density > will change. In my pretty well informed view, the problem will be self- > correcting by an abrupt reduction that removes most or all of the human > population. The point is to minimize the damage we do in the meanwhile. Of > course we also try to avoid the population collapse, but odds of almost > infinite proportions are against success there. > > Dan Hemenway Come on Dan, stop being so pig headed, removing people from the land only dis-orients people further from themselves and continue to propogate the unaffordable costs of managing the resulting societies of today. Where is this all going to end? you promote that the solution is eradication of the population in order to preserve the environment. God, you are an idiot, and this isn't flaming.......... Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 16:42:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA21298 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:42:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA04396 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:41:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20982; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:36:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:31:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20374 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:31:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20365 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:31:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dial-229-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.229]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA20064; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:36:21 -0500 Message-ID: <34BE8157.7521@together.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:36:23 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nadav Malin CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: What does "plenum" mean? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1268 Nadav: Wayne's definitive interpretation of "plenum" as per code jives with what I hear in common job-site practice... that it references an area for air movement/collection, etc. If it doesn't involve air handling then most folks would not use the term plenum. Tom Anderson Nadav Malin wrote: > > I'm hoping some of you erudite engineers can help me with a question: > > Does the term "plenum" refer to any cavity, above a ceiling or below a > raised floor, or does it only apply if the cavity is being used for air > distribution? > > Please respond either to the list or to me personally--if I get a lot of > personal responses I'll report on the results. > > Thanks, Nadav > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 17:05:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA22377 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:05:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA10430 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:04:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22368; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:59:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:54:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22048 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:54:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22042 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:54:31 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:55:28 EST To: rjmoore@ampsc.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1269 In a message dated 1/15/98 4:20:25 PM, rjmoore@ampsc.com wrote: << Come on Dan, stop being so pig headed, removing people from the land only dis-orients people further from themselves and continue to propogate the unaffordable costs of managing the resulting societies of today. Where is this all going to end? you promote that the solution is eradication of the population in order to preserve the environment. God, you are an idiot, and this isn't flaming.......... Richard.>> In a message dated 1/15/98 4:20:25 PM, you wrote: << Come on Dan, stop being so pig headed, removing people from the land only dis-orients people further from themselves and continue to propogate the unaffordable costs of managing the resulting societies of today. Where is this all going to end? you promote that the solution is eradication of the population in order to preserve the environment. God, you are an idiot, and this isn't flaming.......... Richard.>> Richard: I've worked in this field for almost 20 years and I've seen what happens when people who once knew what to do moved to a new location--disaster everytime. You are talking from theories and pet convictions, not experience, I'm afraid. In any case, neither you are I decide global demographics. Too bad that you weren't around when Kirk and I had our discussion, though. Your support might move him over to my side, and he is someone worth the trouble to find agreement. Generally the value of these lists is when people strive to reach collective wisdom. When people decide that other informed people are idiots, they are too far gone into dogma to be helpful. Have an nice life. I think Australia has lots of open land--go for it! For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 17:09:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA22775 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:09:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA11563 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22972; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:58:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22308 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:58:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22221; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:57:02 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <7235ad7.34be846f@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:49:32 EST To: strawboss94@Juno.com, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: minimul wood stove Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1270 In a message dated 1/15/98 3:55:12 PM, strawboss94@juno.com wrote: <> In many parts of Africa, solar ovens can achieve reductions of fuel consumption way in excess of your target. There is a solar cooking list where people way more versed in this than I can give help. While the deforestation to which fuel cutting contributes greatly is a serious problem, it is important to examine the traditional methods very closely before advising changes. In Sudan, for example, people who switches to high efficiency (paint can) cookers soon contracted malaria. It turned out that the "inefficient" smoky wood fires kept the malaria vector mosquitoes away. I don't supposed anyone looked into the cost of screening. On a village level, methane generators are also a potential source of some fuel. This also helps curb intestinal diseases and parasites and so several benefits are achieved. Where refrigeration is unavailble, the methane might be used to provide a community walk-in cooler. The heat pump (all refrigerators use heat pumps) can be rigged to transfer extracted heat to water, reducing the amount of fuel needed to further heat the water. A nice ammonia absorption solar cooler has been developed by J Vanek of STEVEN Foundation, Ithaca, NY. Address slips my mind, but I can dig it out if there is intrest. OK here it comes, 414 Triphammer Rd. I'm pretty sure the zip is 14850 though there are some addresses in Ithaca as high as ---53. Again, the heat has to be dumped, and hot water can ensue. Solar is the fuel of choice. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 17:10:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA22986 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:10:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA11790 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:09:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23114; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:04:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:59:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22421 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu (root@eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu [130.207.194.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22415 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:59:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from [130.207.206.198] (apearce.gtri.gatech.edu [130.207.206.198]) by eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA27466 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:04:36 -0500 X-Sender: annie@eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:12:27 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Annie R. Pearce" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: economics and environment Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1271 My two cents on the complexity of economics as it shapes green building practice: Optimizing economics using LCA techniques is not as difficult if everyone agrees WHOSE interests are being optimized. When we try to set prices based on greatest good for the greatest number, that's when things get complicated.....how to weight the relative importances of the interests of different people or groups of people. This is the heart of the "sustainability problem" - how to account for everyone's interests. _____________________________________________ Annie R. Pearce, Research Engineer Georgia Tech Research Institute Electro-Optics, Environment, and Materials Laboratory Safety, Health, and Environmental Technologies Division Atlanta, GA 30332-0837 Phone: (404) 894-8089 Fax: (404) 894-2184 annie.pearce@gtri.gatech.edu http://eoeml-www.gtri.gatech.edu/lab/apearce.html _____________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 17:36:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24142 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:36:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA17699 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:35:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA24569; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:30:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:25:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24180 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:25:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ove.arup.com (ove.arup.com [193.116.20.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24175 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:25:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by ove.arup.com; id WAA22913; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:28:20 GMT Received: from a_csun01(69.69.11.1) by ove.arup.com via smap (3.2) id xma022908; Thu, 15 Jan 98 22:28:16 GMT Received: from arup.com (a_cnws01) by arupuk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11459; Thu, 15 Jan 98 22:30:18 GMT Received: from nwgateways-Message_Server by arup.com with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:29:54 +0000 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:27:32 +0000 From: Jason shepherd Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: What does "plenum" mean? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1272 Nadav The general use of plenums is usually at the point of air delivery behind supply air outlets and at the point of return air/outdoor air mixing at the air handling unit. The other common use is where savings can be made in doing without sheet-metal ductwork or if ductwork is hard to install, and as such parts of the buildings internal construction can be used to transport air. This is usual for large scale return air and underfloor supply air distribution. Cheers Jason Shepherd Ove Arup & Partners Sydney, Australia. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 17:58:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24799 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:58:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA22567 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:57:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA26671; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:52:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:47:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA25995 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:47:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.165]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA25991 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:47:27 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <3039515d.34be91f2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:47:05 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: FREE HEAT Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1273 Jean, For fan and ventilation information and equipment, I usually call Paul Raymer or David McClellan at Tamarack Technologies, 1-800-222-5932. Sorry, I can't put my fingers on their E-Mail or Web Site addresses. They manufacture and/or distribute most of the best ventilation equipment available and are very helpful with system design as well. They got their start manufacturing just the kind of heat recycling systems you asked about for the sunroom industry, but are now into all levels of creative HVAC equipment & controls for various applications. They also have the most interesting heating system I've ever seen in a prototype application in a 60+ unit co-housing development in Cambridge, MA. Folks on this list should know about them. ' Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 18:16:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA26035 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:16:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA27484 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:15:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA27829; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:10:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:05:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27449 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:05:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27445 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.11] (iplink11.crocker.com [205.246.4.11]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA23576 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:15:05 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:14:16 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Curved, corrugated, steel roofing panels Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1274 Can anyone help lead me to a US supplier of curved corrugated steel panels... quarter circle section 7' 0" radius... I want them for a barrel vaulted roof that I am proposing to a client. It is covering an exterior walkway so waterproofing is not an issue. I thought that cutting up a 14' 0" diameter water tank ( they are often made of this material) might be a route to success. Any other ideas? Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 18:35:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA26462 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:35:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA02901 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:34:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA28720; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:29:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:25:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA28442 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:24:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28422 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:24:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5.carleton.ca [134.117.136.25]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v2.02) with ESMTP id SAA20149; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:29:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id SAA07751; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:29:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 18:29:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801152329.SAA07751@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: nstone@energy.state.ca.us Subject: GBlist: re: a Precise ER Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1275 on Tue, 13 Jan 1998 "Nehemiah I. Stone" (who was apparently still under the influence of the Full Moon wrote: re: heat load calcs AND a PRECISE ER [blah,blah,blah ] > add windows to the south face of her house, THEN, it could > not possibly, conceivably, by any stretch, even with > Canadian logic, give the right answer to her next door > neighbor who has no thermal mass, no overhangs, and who > wants windows for a large north "glass wall." Squeezez moi Monsieur Rocky ? (And hello GB-Heads) We were talking "windows" weren't we ? Why would (or should) a window rating account for architectural features like sun control devices and mass levels ? WRT to orientation.... are you suggesting that with some "Superwindows", it is not possible that the solar gains from diffuse light on a north facing elevation, even on a cloudy day in a Cold Climate ... could exceed the losses ? (Hint: The answer is "Yes", it is possible... and such a window would have a +ve ER # rating.) --- * --- and RCMathis1@aol.com (Chris Mathis) wrote: > we can't just apply the ER system "down here" because its > assumptions break down as you increase the cooling load. [snip & paste ] > Fortunately US and Canadian tech-types are trying to work > out the details and hopefully we will soon have a NORTH > AMERICAN system that works everywhere! Just as the move towards an "International Building Code" strikes me as being incapable of acknowledging the fine-grained specifics of regional culture, I think that it may be unrealistic to expect that a SIMPLIFIED, single-number consumer rating system can be developed which would be useful from Goose Bay, Labrador to Rancho Cucamonga, California. The ER system works for us because as Chris alludes, the majority of the population is huddled around a fairly narrow range of latitude. Instead of trying to make Canadians conform to a "North American" system, perhaps what is needed is a "South Canadian" system for Murricans. This would (rightfully IMO) tend to keep window manufacturers in their own neighbourhoods instead of attempting continental, MicroSoft-style market dominance. Eh ? -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 19:32:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA28778 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:32:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA16685 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:31:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01659; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:21:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01025 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:21:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01021; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:20:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA21921; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:25:59 -0800 Message-ID: <34BEA807.426E1347@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:21:28 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Roy , "strawbale@crest.org" CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: annual passive design References: <9801152106.AA17773@nga.nga.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1276 I have been trying to find a reference to this design. Does anyone know of any information on the project(s) described below or similar projects with extended skirting. Thanks John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jim Roy wrote: > Greetings to the greenbuilding list... > > A couple of years ago, I read an article in Mother Earth News about an > earth sheltered house with a twist. An umbrella of foam insulation and > plastic sheeting just below the ground surface was extended to a radius > of about 20 feet from the structure. The house had a modest solar exposure > and was in direct thermal contact with the surround earth. The net effect > of coupling the house with this very large dry earth thermal mass was to creat > a thermal cycle in the mass that was 180 degrees out of phase with the climate - > warmest in the winter, coolest in the summer, with a temperature swing of only > a few degrees. > > I'm convinced that such a design is workable, but have a number of question that > this group might have some insight into. > > First, does anyone know of any performance data on such "annual passive" buildings? > > This house requiered a LOT of foam insulation. Any ideas on a lower impact alternatives? > > And then there's the energy cost of all that concrete. The planet might come out ahead > if I just lived in a tent & burned wood. > > Thanks, > > Jim Roy > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 19:35:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA28840 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:35:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA17574 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:34:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01963; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:29:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:25:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01460 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:24:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01456 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA21700 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:30:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 15 Jan 1998 16:29:36 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: DUCT FANS/DAMPERS To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAA01457 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1277 These products--and a lot of, to me, very funny gadgets like automatic goldfish feeders--are available at smarthome.com. (I don't know if the website carries their complete line; I have their 127 page printed catalog.) Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 19:40:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA28916 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:40:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA18682 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:38:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02454; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:33:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:29:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01952 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:29:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01944; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:29:12 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO Message-ID: <50b94bfb.34bea88a@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:23:28 EST To: Permacltur@aol.com, strawboss94@JUNO.COM, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: minimul wood stove Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1278 I have a nice small book from 1981, called Lorena Stoves: Designing, Building, and Testing Wood-Conserving Cookstoves, put out by Volunteers in Asia, by I. Evans and M. Boutette. At that time, it cost $4, and was available from Volunteers in Asia, P.O. Box 4543, Stanford, CA 94305. If you are not able to get it, let me know and I can send you my copy, as I am not using it now. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 19:53:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA29178 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA22582 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:52:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA03308; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:47:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:43:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA03019 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA03015 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:43:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA22408; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:48:33 -0800 Message-ID: <34BEAD55.5E0DAA40@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:44:05 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "rjmoore@ampsc.com" CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment References: <34BE7CA7.E6C@ampsc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1279 Are you referring to God or Dan. If you are referring to Dan I wouldn't agree at all and would appreciate your keeping such remarks for more personal acquaintances. Thanks, John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Arjay wrote: > God, you are an idiot, and this isn't flaming.......... > > Richard. > > R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis > Indoor Air Environment Specialists > Restoration and Remediation Services > Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. > Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 20:09:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA00031 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:09:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA26858 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:08:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04117; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:03:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:59:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA03790 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:58:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc513.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA03786 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:58:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from IEL#u#MAIL-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:06:58 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:06:48 -0500 From: Arnie Katz To: greenbuilding@crest.org, speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu Subject: GBlist: Demand Radiant Floor Heat -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1280 Speireag: There are two people here in central North Carolina who have used systems like you have described. They use a gas-fired demand heater called "Seahorse" to supplyhot water for a radiant slab and for domestic hot water. I'm not currently at my office, so I don't have the contact infor, but you can get phone numbers from information: Paul Konove, Carolina Country Builders, Pittsboro, NC and Giles Blunden, Architect, Carrboro, NC. Both use these systems with solar assist. Arnie Katz Advanced Energy Raleigh, NC ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 20:22:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA00724 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:22:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA00068 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:21:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04839; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:16:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:11:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04464 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:11:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04459 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.50] (pa-ppp38.hevanet.com [204.119.60.50]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA16523 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:16:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34BE78D5.7A76EE35@cow-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:15:39 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: [Fwd: PFA: a health concern?] Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1281 Hi, John-- There's a good description of fly ash as a concrete additive on the Austin Green Builder web site, http://www.txinfinet.com/sourcebook/Flyash.html#SPECS. Best, Mike >Further information on PFA usage. Vaughn uses fly ash as the material for >their >'stone' lined hot water tanks. Material was supposedly certified for use >but do not >know what aspect certification covers. Interesting to know what other >products PFA >has been incorporated in. > > >John Salmen >TERRAIN E.D.S. > >Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > >> Steve: As anyone will know who has had "hands-on" experience with the >>above in >> concrete, stablized earth, etc., it is so fine and light that it may pose >> a serious health concern during handling. >> >> In addition, perhaps the suppliers should be more specific about what >> "negligible" radioactivity (from coal power plants) means? Until we get >>better >> answers, we will not use it, not even in foundations (even if it has several >> useful structural redeeming characteristics). Perhaps it will be strictly >> regulated or baned like asbestos? Does anyone know more about the issue of >> radioactivity? >> _________________________________________________________ >> Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect >> - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office >>buildings >> - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office >> Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm >> e-mail: >> _____________________________________________________ >> On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Steve Hussey wrote: >> > >> > In the UK they use Pulverised Fuel Ash (PFA) in concrete mixes to >> > 'lighten the load'. (I believe it's also called fly ash.) PFA is a >> > by-product of coal combustion in power plants. the power plants used to >> > pay companies to haul it away - to them it's a waste product. PFA is very >> > fine and very light. O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Earth Smart Program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 20:24:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA00772 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:24:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA00615 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:23:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04995; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:18:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:14:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04614 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:14:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from sweden.it.earthlink.net (sweden-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04606 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:14:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.213] (1Cust213.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.213]) by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA27522; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:19:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801160119.RAA27522@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: heat load calculations Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 17:22:27 -0000 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "khassan" , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1282 It's a great book and will probably do the job just fine. However, you may also want to consider inexpensive software called MECcheck. It's intended to qualify houses for the Model Energy Code and strictly speaking is not a load calculating program. However, it does give you an overall UA that could save a bunch of time. We sell the software for $20 with printed manuals or you can download it free from Oikos . Follow the link to Design and Construction. Bruce >I recently came across a book by Charlie Wing..".The Visual >Handbook of Building and Remodeling" that has a chapter on heating with >a worksheet to calculate heat load. I think that with the info from the >List and this book I'll be able to do a creditable job of calculating >the heat load. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 20:50:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA01258 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:50:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA06571 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:49:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA06240; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:43:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:38:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA05606 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:37:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA05601 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:37:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.50] (pa-ppp38.hevanet.com [204.119.60.50]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA20684 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:42:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:41:54 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: economics and environment Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1283 Who was it said-- "Free markets know the price of everything, and the value of nothing." Best, Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Earth Smart Program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 20:50:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA01264 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:50:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA06591 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:49:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA06253; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:43:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:38:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA05656 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:38:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from sweden.it.earthlink.net (sweden-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA05651 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:38:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.213] (1Cust213.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.213]) by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA11924 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 17:43:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801160143.RAA11924@sweden.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: minimul wood stove Date: Thu, 15 Jan 98 17:46:39 -0000 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1284 I recall that the Aprovecho Institute was invovled with the Lorena stove. Possibly, Ianto Evans was there at that time too. (He's now with the Cob Cottage Company.) So this contact may also be worth following: Aprovecho 80574 Hazelton Rd Cottage Grove, OR 97424 541-942-8198 Bruce >I have a nice small book from 1981, called Lorena Stoves: Designing, >Building, and Testing Wood-Conserving Cookstoves, put out by Volunteers in >Asia, by I. Evans and M. Boutette. At that time, it cost $4, and was >available from Volunteers in Asia, >P.O. Box 4543, Stanford, CA 94305. If you are not able to get it, let me >know >and I can send you my copy, as I am not using it now. > >Ian -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 22:29:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA05324 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:29:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA01648 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:28:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09296; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:23:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:17:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08972 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:17:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08968 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet3.carleton.ca [134.117.136.23]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v2.02) with ESMTP id WAA02298; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:22:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id WAA20662; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:22:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:22:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801160322.WAA20662@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: brucecol@crocker.com Subject: GBlist: re: Curved,corrugated,steel roofing panels Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1285 on Thu, 15 Jan 1998 brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) wrote: re: Curved, corrugated, steel roofing panels > .. quarter circle section 7' 0" radius... barrel vaulted roof > I thought that cutting up a 14' 0" diameter water tank Hello Bruce; Agricultural grain bins, metal culvert .... ? In Canada, "Westeel-Rosco", "Butler" and "Koppers" are commonly seen brands of the above. They usually sell through local dealers (see Yellow Pages ?) For deeper "corrugations" (like 7", 9" or more) , you might be interested in the "quonset hut" type corrugated steel arch panels. They usually custom-bend them to any radius you want. Clear-spans exceeding 100' are possible. Cutting galavnised steel panels with abrasive blades or a torch will leave an edge that rusts prematurely. Best to have a factory-sheared edge if it will be exposed to weather -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 22:50:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA05796 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:50:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA07545 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:49:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10241; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:43:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:39:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA09685 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:39:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09678 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:39:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA22882 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:43:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-40.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.168) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma022811; Thu Jan 15 21:42:55 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980115224209.006e77d4@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:42:11 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Plenum (def.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1286 Nadav: here is what ASHRAE says on this one... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Plenum: in an air distribution system, that part of the casing, or an air chamber furnace, to or from which the air ducts systems delivers conditioned air." ASHRAE Handbook, Terminology ('91) pg 72 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...as in "an insulated plenum distributed warm air from the sunspace to the concrete masonry block Air Core floor system, using a small blower ..." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Environmental Building Information Services Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P.O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA bhoward2@sprynet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 22:51:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA05828 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:51:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA07908 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:50:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10403; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:45:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:40:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA09835 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:40:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09830 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:40:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust168.tnt7.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.20.168]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA02973 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:44:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34BED75B.199@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:43:24 -0800 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: economics and environment References: <34BE2AAD.81754A54@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1287 To Johns Salmen & Straube, Fred Unger and the rest of you energetically discussing free markets, the environment, God and the like: I followed this thread with great interest, but I confess that between the abstractions and contradictions, I got lost a few times. To better illustrate your various positions, can we do an online charette? Take the laundry detergent we were discussing some weeks back (it came as part of the thread on laundry discs). It was noted from laboratory studies that the actual amount of detergent needed to effectivly clean a load of laundry was a couple of tablespoons. This independent information is contrary to everything we see on the boxes and on commercials, where we see cupfuls being dumped in. I would hazard to guess that the companies know full well that they recommend excess servings, but that it enhances their profitability. (This would go along with images of toothpaste, shaving cream and shampoo). Furthermore, this is an environmentally-damaging situation, both in terms of manufacture (resource-consumption and pollution) and use (pollution). (Let's leave out the additional issues of the public's wasted wealth on the unneeded purchases for simplicity.) OK, how does a free market effectively reduce or eliminate these wastes and pollution? How would a public's value system change this? Who provides the revealing information that the advertisers are wrong? In other words, folks, can you use this extant situation to illustrate your respective positions? Much appreciated. I think that this thread is trying to get at something important, and I just want to be able to comprehend it a bit better. Seth Melchert Master Builders ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 23:27:59 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07675 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:27:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA17029 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA11673; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:21:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:17:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11371 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:17:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (root@donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11366 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:17:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.88]) by donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/3.0-mailhub) with ESMTP id XAA28534 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.6-client) with SMTP id XAA26490 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:22:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:22:14 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: rooftop gardens Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1288 Dear all- I just subscribed to this list, so I hope this hasn't just been discussed here recently. Could someone please recommend me a publication containing an overview about the technical specifics in establishing a roof garden (e.g., membrane materials, thicknesses of gravel and soil layers, soil types, irrigation systems etc.)? Secondly, could somebody also please give me a rough number for the additional load (lbs/sqft) caused by a roof garden on which only grass would be grown. That would help me a lot for some first feasibility studies (which I'd like to do over the weekend). Thanks in advance, Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Reppe e-mail: reppe@umich.edu National Pollution Prevention Center phone : 734-936-8386 University of Michigan fax : 734-647-5841 430 E. University Ann Arbor, MI http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub 48109-1115 U.S.A. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reppe -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 15 23:39:53 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07926 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:39:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA20204 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:38:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA12120; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:33:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:28:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11806 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:27:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11802 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:27:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA27511; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:31:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-40.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.168) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma027466; Thu Jan 15 22:30:30 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980115232944.006f0808@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:29:47 -0500 To: healthyp@ix.netcom.com From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Some Must Reads (GB list) Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1289 Green Building -- Must Reads (B. D. Howard) ------------------------------------------- Wish I had "my" book to contribute, but here are some of my favorites. Givoni, B. _Man, Climate & Architecture_ ['69.'76' '81 VNR ] (a true classic...got me going in early '70s...College enviro class) Coker and Richards (ed). _Valuing the Environment_ 1990 (papers) ___ DOE "Sustainable Building Technical Manual" 1996 (PTI) ___ AIA/Wiley & Sons. _Environmental Resource Guide_ LeClair & Rousseau. _Environmental by Design_ H&M Publishers Harland, _ Eco-Renovation_ Real Goods ILB Ed Mazria, _Passive Solar Design_ Rodale (out of print I believe) Browning, et.al _Primer on Green Building_ (sic) RMI (real good, but got swiped at a conference ..;<.( ) Vigon, B.W. et.al _Life-Cycle Assessment_ 1994. Lewis Publ. (excellent text on a very gnarly topic / methods are applicable for green building material comparisons; flow charts, forms, tables...) -- EEBA -- (Lstiburek & Petitt) EEBA Builder Guide(s) {whole building energy details} John Bower, _The Healthy House_ (revised) ( feel better already...) ___ (CMHC) _Building Materials for the Environmentally Hypersensitive_ (team: Van Vliet, Drerup, Feigin, Lowans, and D. Rousseau) Available: (manuals) .............................................................................. There is also a bibliography (~1995) of green building sources held in an appendix of an ASTM Residential Green Building Standard Guide (2nd draft) (~101 kb) That V9.1 (prev. version) is no longer linked to our main resource page; so for the latest 3rd RGBSG draft (V10.0) sans the bibliography... ............................................................................ ... Why not post the "top ten" voted, for our interest? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Environmental Building Information Services Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P.O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA bhoward2@sprynet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 00:37:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA10036 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:37:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA04968 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:36:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA13749; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:31:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:26:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA13466 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:26:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13462 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:26:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA02558 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:31:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-40.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.168) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma002526; Thu Jan 15 23:30:35 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980116002949.006ee834@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:29:52 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Free heat (2c/ worth) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1290 Greetings J. Gallagher / List: Subj: Free heat (2c/ worth) Are you just curious about these issues, or planning a renovation where you could use a sunspace? I really do not advise solar attic unless you go full-on and design a roof pond (a-la Harold Hay system in the literature) Passive Solar Heat Flows: ............................ A good analyst would have to review some plans or do an energy audit and solar study of a particular building to give a "right" answer. As part of the National Solar Data Network passive solar building analysis team in the 1970's I learned that air does not always obediently follow the arrows drawn up by architects and engineers! Do not accept generalities on air-flows. Air flows in one building configuration (room locations, doors, windows, heated and cooled surfaces...) will change once the building is altered. NSDN monitored a couple of solar attics that had air leaks, overheated when there were fan control problems, and did not really work very well. It is possible to preheat water during many months through piping attached to the underside of roof decking in warmer climates. Needs to be drained and locked out of system in winter for freeze protection, obviously. May lengthen roof life slightly by reducing roof sheating temperatures (have not seen conclusive data on this). Solar monitoring projects -- such as NSDN, Class B, California Class B, and others -- showed sunspaces can be pretty effective in heating a building...the real trick is designing them with a reasonably low cooling season "penalty" on the building. Here is where computer design tools in the hands of a good energy consultant can really help avoid problems. Sunspace Heat Management: ........................... I have designed some sunspace "thermal management systems" where the heat from passive solar gains was moved through a "block bed" system under the slab (or masonry pavers in one case) by a PV solar powered blower. Once the floor is sufficiently heated a next stage (secondary PV powered fan, with thermostat) could move warm air into the home, but you might be better off to just use a slider or french-doors that could be opened and closed to the space. Calculations and computer sim's match the climate to thermal storage/glass/ and heat available, with understanding host buildings' load -- along with sizing the solar PV panel to operate as a pseudo-controller for the blower. The only other control is a high-temp switch that causes an operable skylight in the subspace to open if overheating occurs while block-bed is "full" of heat. If the door to the home was open from the sunspace considerable convection would occur before the overheat protect mode was selected. Above system follows the KISS principle, has about a 5 to 7 year payback, primary blower works if the power goes off, and can be built with "cull" block (1/2 price some places...) in virtually any sunspace addition. By the way, an insulated "air-core" floor could actually _reduce_ moisture (in a building) by sequestering it in the matrix of the concrete, which in block is quite porous and has about a 2-week moisture vapor time-constant according to tests done at the National Concrete Masonry Association (NCMA) A set of diagrams of typical AirCore (concrete masonry block) heat storage systems (NCMA) may be obtained at: (double click) (44 kb) A Caddet pictorial example building (Japan) at: uses roof mounted air-collectors and in-floor masonry storage. --------------------------------------- Date: 15 Jan 1998 11:40:09 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: FREE HEAT I wonder if any formal (or informal) studies have been done regarding heat transfer from sunrooms or attics to lower portions of houses. I know thermo-controlled duct fans with self-activated gates are available relatively cheap. My thought is, though, that you would probably have to include this in new construction. My only other concern would be the recirculation of moisture. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Environmental Building Information Services Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P.O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA bhoward2@sprynet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 03:30:06 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA18203 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:30:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA06508 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:28:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA18031; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:23:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:19:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA17723 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:19:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA17719 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:19:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dial-14-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.14]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA06042; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:24:10 -0500 Message-ID: <34BF192B.254B@together.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:24:11 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Demand Radiant Floor Heat References: <1904421@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1291 Hi Marc: My time frame regarding degredation of heating capacity due to potential fouling of heat transfer sufaces was a long term view.... 20 years or so. My comments are based on experience, including observation of demolition of Mechanical Systems during renovations. I could be wrong on the fouling, but I would not design such a system for a client or myself for that matter, primarily because of the fouling issue and ........ ...Legionella. Domestic HW systems with stagnant lukewarm sections of piping fluid become ideal culture mediums. This is beyond my area of knowledge, more in the "Industrial Hygene" discipline, but studies in a local Vermont hospital following Legionalla deaths resulting from a non-maintained cooling tower across the street discovered intensive Legionella levels in Dom HW piping, especially the HW return piping..... dead ends the worst. Comments from many Hospital facility managers over the years tell me DHW systems are the biggest headache for Legionella and many take pro-active measures to keep the levels minimized. They seem to use a shock treatment, either chlorine or thermal shock, I hear tell. I wonder what our European friends have to say about this? ...Where low temp HW systems are much more common, I understand. Best, Tom Anderson Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > > Tom - > FYI - I have an open loop radiant and copper heating system working out of my > stainless DHW tank (heated by solar and wood and propane). Some of the Wirsbo > tubing leaving the manifold in the basement is clearly visible for several > feet. After 1-1/2 years use, the tubing barely has shown any change - I think > I can see a slight darkening, indicating a film inside. Seems like not a > problem to me. I left myself an easy conversion path if I wanted to make it > closed loop, but don't yet see this as a reason. > > Your thoughts always appreciated. > > Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 07:09:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA21994 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:09:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA10049 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:08:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22482; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:02:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 06:58:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA22218 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 06:58:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from atl1.america.net (ns2.america.net [199.170.121.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA22214 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 06:58:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from newcomb-boyd.com ([204.252.122.97]) by atl1.america.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA26234; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:03:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801161203.HAA26234@atl1.america.net> From: "Richard M. Jones" To: gkam@pacbell.net, jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:31:35 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: coal plant radioactivity CC: "Richard M. Jones" , greenbuilding@crest.org X-mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.30 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1292 If I am not mistaken uranium is mined in the same areas as coal, where you find one you find the other, I believe that is the reason that coal is radioactive. So I don't think that the release from uranium mining would be any worse than coal mining especially since I would a coal mine is much larger. I think at this point I am out of my territory so hopefully someone knows something further? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 09:15:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01811 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:15:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA04918 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:14:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24728; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:08:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:04:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24392 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:03:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24387 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:03:56 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <40c911f.34bf68df@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:04:13 EST To: brucecol@crocker.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Curved, corrugated, steel roofing panels Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1293 In a message dated 1/15/98 6:12:57 PM, brucecol@crocker.com wrote: <> Hi Bruce: Look into silo sections for farms. Again, unless you go straight to the manufacturer, they may have to be cut. Various kinds of silo construction units are used in all kinds of ways. They make a pretty quick shed, too. I suppose they could even be a home. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 09:36:45 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02033 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:36:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA10039 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:35:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25791; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:30:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:26:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25490 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:26:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25483 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA27245 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:31:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:31:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy2.vineyard.net(204.17.195.192) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma027229; Fri Jan 16 09:30:47 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Eco-industrial parks Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1294 Thanks to those who passed information to me about Eco-Industrial parks. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 09:48:32 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02130 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA12753 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:47:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26412; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:42:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:37:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25969 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:37:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.170]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25965 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:37:33 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:35:46 EST To: terrain@cow-net.com, rjmoore@ampsc.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Economics meets the Environment Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1295 In a message dated 1/15/98 7:50:27 PM, terrain@cow-net.com wrote: << Are you referring to God or Dan. If you are referring to Dan I wouldn't agree at all and would appreciate your keeping such remarks for more personal acquaintances. Thanks, John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S.>> Thanks John: Fortunately, I think this is the first time in my life I have been called an idiot (to my virtual face, anyway, and at least it isn't behind my back). The novelty was greater than the discomfort. Now if he had said "you are in lousy shape because you eat the wrong foods and spend too much time in front of a computer" I would have cause to squirm. Dan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 09:50:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02145 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:50:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA13311 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:49:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26598; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:44:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:40:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26203 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:40:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26195; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:40:05 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:42:27 EST To: sullivan@oikos.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: minimul wood stove Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1296 There is a college or University in Canada that has published on this subject a small booklet of designs. I can't remember the name but I'll search if nobody comes up with the name. I recall I wrote a review of the book for one of our journals. Also, Intermediate Technology Publications with addresses in the USA (NYC, a UN zip code) and the UK have published a variety of publications that address this topic in various degrees. Again, if stuck for an address and none comes forth, let me know. Better email me privately as I'm not long for this list. We probably have a batch of organizations working in this field listed in our directory TRIP (THE RESOURCES OF INTERNATIONAL PERMACULTURE) I always seem to think of our publications last. We need someone to do marketing for us, I guess. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 09:59:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02233 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:59:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA15331 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:58:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27085; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:53:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:49:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26750 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:48:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26746; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:48:43 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <623835b5.34bf732d@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:48:10 EST To: reppe@umich.edu, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: rooftop gardens Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1297 ECHO has such a publication, based on their own very good work which I have seen and can attest to. Contact them by email at ECHO@xc.org Also, ATTRA will probably have a packet on this theme. My address for them is for Steve Diver, a fellow permaculturist, but he may forward your inquiry to someone working in that area. They do very good work, bringing together information that others generate: steved@ncatfyv.uark.edu For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 10:06:15 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02397 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:06:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA17116 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:05:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27597; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:59:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:55:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27181 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:55:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from perham.eot.com (perham.eot.com [206.9.124.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27176; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:55:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from eot.com (tvu-41.dialup.eot.com [206.9.124.106]) by perham.eot.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id JAA27723; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:02:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:02:53 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801161502.JAA27723@perham.eot.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail and News for Macintosh - 1.1 (34) Subject: Re: GBlist: annual passive design From: Bruce Brummitt To: John Salmen , Jim Roy , CC: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1298 John, Jim, et al: This is "Passive Annual Heat Storage, improving the design of Earth Shelters", by John Hait... available from The Rocky Mountain Research Center, PO Box 4694, Missoula, MT 59806 USA... telephone (406) 728-5951 Much impressive information that can be used with many building-types. My pit greenhouse is skirted in the umbrella fashion and I can attest that it does improve performance. It is not built from concrete. Bruce Cheryl Valois and Bruce Brummitt "Life is an experiment" Visit the Natural Building Gallery ---------- From: John Salmen To: Jim Roy , "strawbale@crest.org" CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: annual passive design Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:21:28 -0800 I have been trying to find a reference to this design. Does anyone know of any information on the project(s) described below or similar projects with extended skirting. Thanks John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jim Roy wrote: > Greetings to the greenbuilding list... > > A couple of years ago, I read an article in Mother Earth News about an > earth sheltered house with a twist. An umbrella of foam insulation and > plastic sheeting just below the ground surface was extended to a radius > of about 20 feet from the structure. The house had a modest solar exposure > and was in direct thermal contact with the surround earth. The net effect > of coupling the house with this very large dry earth thermal mass was to creat > a thermal cycle in the mass that was 180 degrees out of phase with the climate - > warmest in the winter, coolest in the summer, with a temperature swing of only > a few degrees. > > I'm convinced that such a design is workable, but have a number of question that > this group might have some insight into. > > First, does anyone know of any performance data on such "annual passive" buildings? > > This house requiered a LOT of foam insulation. Any ideas on a lower impact alternatives? > > And then there's the energy cost of all that concrete. The planet might come out ahead > if I just lived in a tent & burned wood. > > Thanks, > > Jim Roy > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 10:23:53 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02594 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:23:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21566 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:22:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28335; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:12:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28051 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:12:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28047 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:12:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA151564; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:16:26 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:16:26 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Permacltur Cc: sullivan@oikos.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: minimul wood stove In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1299 You said: "There is a college or University in Canada that has published on this subject a small booklet of designs. I can't remember the name but I'll search if nobody comes up with the name." Perhaps the Brace Research Institute of McGill University,Tom Lawand, Director? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 10:41:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02834 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:41:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA26797 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:40:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29390; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:31:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29087 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:31:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29083 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:31:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.127] (ka3-127.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.127]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id KAA22400; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:36:20 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199801151539.KAA23970@amsterdam.interport.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:35:53 -0500 To: "C. Dodge" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Speireag Subject: Re: GBlist: Demand Radiant Floor Heat Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAA29084 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1300 Sgrìobh C. Dodge: >Also I believe the theory behind radient floor heating is that the >massive floor is constantly being trickle charged by relatively low >temperature hot water and balancing the equation by slowly radiating that >heat into the air in the room. If you were to be constantly interrupting >that charge by turning off the hot water flow, you would be having to >recharge the concrete mass every time before it again began transfering >heat into the room because of the low temperatures involved. Correct me >if I am wrong, but with low temp radient floor systems to be efficient >you get the mass up to speed and keep it there for the duration of the >heating season. (Kind of like) big rig diesels not being turned off at >every truck stop, they turn the engine on in New York and turn it off in >LA. (: Ah, that's not my understanding of the theory at all, at least when you combine the radiant tubing with a large thermal mass, as I will. My understanding of thermal mass is that you charge it and then let it radiate heat over time. That's the basic principle from which masonry stoves derive all of their benefits; you can have infrequent, short, hot burns instead of constant inefficient burning. Likewise, the sun will heat the floor during the day, and the floor will give off the heat during the night. Now, you are correct in saying that if you turn the flow off you'll have to let it flow longer before you feel the heat, because the mass must charge. But as long as you don't take it to extremes with the thermal mass that means that you get better efficiency out of the heater (fewer startups) and more time between burns. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 10:48:15 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02913 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:48:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA28395 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:47:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00005; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:41:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:37:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29487 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:37:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.ntplx.net (mail.ntplx.net [204.213.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29475 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:37:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ntplx.net (p05-41.hartford.dialin.ntplx.com [204.213.188.241]) by mail.ntplx.net (8.8.7/NETPLEX) with ESMTP id KAA23063; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:42:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34BF81BB.86505EE1@ntplx.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:50:32 -0500 From: sherry Reply-To: sherry@ntplx.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Central Hepa Filters Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1301 Greetings, I recently joined your list. I have a child that is acutely allergic to dust/mold. I am searching for a hepa air filter that mounts in central duct work or a new technology to fight the endless dust issue. To lay groundwork, all carpeting has been removed from our home, her bedroom is sterile, and a Hunter air cleaner runs 24 hours a day. She is receiving 2 shots weekly but because of modifying the environment receives no other medication. Thanks for any assistance. Sherry Kern-Altman West Hartford, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 10:49:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02964 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:49:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA28713 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:48:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00116; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:42:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:38:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29577 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:38:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29569; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:38:19 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <40dffaa4.34bf7f9a@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:41:12 EST To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca Cc: sullivan@oikos.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: Re: GBlist: minimul wood stove Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1302 In a message dated 1/16/98 10:17:50 AM, jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca wrote: <> Yup That is it. Are they at the McGill campus in Montreal or elsewhere? DH ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 11:03:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03197 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:03:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA02602 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:02:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01084; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:57:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:52:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00477 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:52:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00472; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA05206; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:57:30 -0800 Message-ID: <34BF8259.CEFE3A88@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:52:57 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Brummitt CC: Jim Roy , strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: annual passive design References: <199801161502.JAA27723@perham.eot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1303 Thanks Bruce Duncan Cameron posted a question about the potential for extended insulation and passive annual heat storage on the EEBA website back in the summer and I don't think there was any discussion. He mentions as Jim did that the effect of the skirting goes beyond a diurnal cycle and results in a mutiannual charging of the earth mass. The question he asked was whether this was viable. I think the general thought is that there is always an element of inefficiency in coupling a house to the ground as there is always an element of heat loss to the ground and there is always discussion about the problems of passive solar application because of the problems of balancing extreme temperature swings. I do know that ground temp can vary significantly and have witnessed pockets of exterior mass creating significantly warmer micro climates but I've seen very little discussion or work on modifying ground temp. as a heating strategy. Anyone have any thoughts on this. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 11:06:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03268 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:06:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03522 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:05:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01548; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:00:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:56:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00912 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:55:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu (root@eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu [130.207.194.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00908 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:55:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [130.207.206.198] (apearce.gtri.gatech.edu [130.207.206.198]) by eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA20588; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:01:02 -0500 X-Sender: annie@eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:08:51 -0500 To: Peter Reppe , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Annie R. Pearce" Subject: GBlist: Roof Garden Technical Manual Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1304 I recommend CMHC's "Roof Decks Design Guidelines", ISBN 660-10036-3. It's available from the Financial Services Division, Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation, National Office, Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0P7. The coupon in the back of my copy says it can be had for $2.75 per copy - could it possibly be true? I think I paid about $10 for it at a university bookstore. Geez, I feel shafted..... _____________________________________________ Annie R. Pearce, Research Engineer Georgia Tech Research Institute Electro-Optics, Environment, and Materials Laboratory Safety, Health, and Environmental Technologies Division Atlanta, GA 30332-0837 Phone: (404) 894-8089 Fax: (404) 894-2184 annie.pearce@gtri.gatech.edu http://eoeml-www.gtri.gatech.edu/lab/apearce.html _____________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 11:21:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03555 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:21:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA07884 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:20:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02649; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:15:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:10:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02187 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:10:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.ntplx.net (mail.ntplx.net [204.213.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02182 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:10:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ntplx.net (p05-41.hartford.dialin.ntplx.com [204.213.188.241]) by mail.ntplx.net (8.8.7/NETPLEX) with ESMTP id LAA25824; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:15:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34BF8988.3B36EF94@ntplx.net> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:23:51 -0500 From: sherry Reply-To: sherry@ntplx.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: central hepa filter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1305 Thanks Bruce....Yes, we have modified the diet, removed the chemical arsenal from under the sink and the garage, non-toxic paints, water based urethane, shampoos, soaps, switched washing machines,dryer(Asko), duct work cleaned yearly, etc. The house filter suggestion came from an overseas geneolgy friend because I was researching hepa vacuums. These efforts pay a high dividend...she has not developed asthma. But we are trying to increase her comfort zone.FYI she is 11 years old. Again, thanks for any information. Sherry Kern-Altman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 12:12:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA04251 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:12:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA22686 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:11:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06542; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:06:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:01:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06170 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:01:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.170]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06166 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:01:29 -0500 (EST) From: Permacltur Message-ID: <7eba9c64.34bf92bb@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:02:49 EST To: annie.pearce@gtri.gatech.edu, reppe@umich.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Roof Garden Technical Manual Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1306 It is important to remember two things especially regarding rooftop gardening. 1) Loads need to be kept reasonable for the roof construction. Usually this obviates soil, which would be difficult to haul up to the roof anyway, again because it is heavy. Generally plants are grown directly in mulch seeded with a bit of compost. Human urine makes an adequate fertilizer. 2) Roof top gardens have a high water requirement , particularly when the growing medium is not soil, as above. If you cannot water them at least once a day (more in some climates), forget it. Obviously, this favors high rainfall climates. On the other hand, there are container techniques that are favored by low rainfall climates or seasons and these can be done on rooftops. Because containers are by definition modular, one can start small and expand with experience and in response to need vs time required/available. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and now correspondence courses via email. One is now underway. Next Live program: Paraguay, 8/10-22/98. Internships available. Copyright, 1997, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 12:48:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA04769 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:48:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA03239 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:47:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08503; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:42:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:37:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08194 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:37:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cerberus.nga.com (root@nga.com [198.68.22.250]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08190 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:37:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from nga.nga.com (nga [192.168.1.10]) by cerberus.nga.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA32742; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:42:36 -0800 Received: by nga.nga.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA21487; Fri, 16 Jan 98 09:42:37 PST Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 09:42:37 PST From: jim@nga.com (Jim Roy) Message-Id: <9801161742.AA21487@nga.nga.com> To: gkam@pacbell.net, jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org, RMJ@newcomb-boyd.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: coal plant radioactivity Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1307 > From: "Richard M. Jones" > > If I am not mistaken uranium is mined in the same areas as coal, > where you find one you find the other, I believe that is the reason > that coal is radioactive. So I don't think that the release from > uranium mining would be any worse than coal mining especially since I > would a coal mine is much larger. I think at this point I am out of > my territory so hopefully someone knows something further? There is some truth to this. Surprisingly coal and uranium ARE often associated. The ultimate source of uranium is thought to be igneous rock, but the organic nature of coal, and the particular nature of the sedimentary rock in which it forms makes a good trap for uranium once it has been mobilized. So, its probably the case that The Rocky Mt. coal has uranium, but the apalachian coal does not, or at least has much less. Take the above this with a grain of salt, 'cause I'm the office computer geek not one of the real geologists. So.. Coal & uranium often are associated. I don't think it's safe to assume that radiation release from a coal mine is comparable to that of a uranium mine, however. If it matters. Lets face it both technologies are nasty in a hundred ways - the more we learn to do without both of them the better off we will be IMHO. --- Jim Roy voice 541 757 7231 Sys. Admin. fax 541 757 7331 NW Geophysical Assoc. http://www.nga.com Corvallis Or. US --- > From: "Richard M. Jones" > > If I am not mistaken uranium is mined in the same areas as coal, > where you find one you find the other, I believe that is the reason > that coal is radioactive. So I don't think that the release from > uranium mining would be any worse than coal mining especially since I > would a coal mine is much larger. I think at this point I am out of > my territory so hopefully someone knows something further? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 12:54:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA04858 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:54:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA04953 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:53:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09108; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:47:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:43:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08590 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:43:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from perham.eot.com (perham.eot.com [206.9.124.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08574; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:43:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from eot.com (perham-124.dialup.eot.com [206.147.16.164]) by perham.eot.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id LAA08149; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:52:51 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:52:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801161752.LAA08149@perham.eot.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail and News for Macintosh - 1.1 (34) Subject: Re: GBlist: annual passive design -Reply From: Bruce Brummitt To: Richard Young CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale list Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1308 Our location is near the headwaters of the Mississippi River in Northern Minnesota...often the coldest area in the lower 48. Cheryl Valois and Bruce Brummitt 46N56' 95W20 Visit the Natural Building Gallery ---------- From: Richard Young One thought that occurs to me re: whether or not it's a good idea to link one's interior climate to the earth is this: In areas with a surplus of sun, medium winters, and medium-hot summers, I'd say it makes sense -- overglaze a bit, earth-berm the north side, and control interior temps by opening & closing the shuttering on your glass. The sun's free anyway, and the large glazed area brightens the home. But there are other climes where this won't work -- take the GWN, for example. If one has just enough sun to get by on, or not quite enough, earth-berming is probably not as good an idea; better to insulate well on all six sides of your rectangular solid. The solar gain goes farther that way, no? --Rich ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 13:25:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA05499 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:25:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA15602 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:23:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10667; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:18:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:14:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA10249 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:13:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10245 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:13:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.106.121] (usrts3p121.port.net [207.237.106.121]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA19929 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:18:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801161818.NAA19929@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Demand Radiant Floor Heat Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 13:21:54 -0000 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA10246 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1309 >Sgrìobh C. Dodge: > >>Also I believe the theory behind radient floor heating is that the >>massive floor is constantly being trickle charged by relatively low >>temperature hot water and balancing the equation by slowly radiating that >>heat into the air in the room. If you were to be constantly interrupting >>that charge by turning off the hot water flow, you would be having to >>recharge the concrete mass every time before it again began transfering >>heat into the room because of the low temperatures involved. Correct me >>if I am wrong, but with low temp radient floor systems to be efficient >>you get the mass up to speed and keep it there for the duration of the >>heating season. (Kind of like) big rig diesels not being turned off at >>every truck stop, they turn the engine on in New York and turn it off in >>LA. (: > > Ah, that's not my understanding of the theory at all, at least when you >combine the radiant tubing with a large thermal mass, as I will. My >understanding of thermal mass is that you charge it and then let it radiate >heat over time. That's the basic principle from which masonry stoves >derive all of their benefits; you can have infrequent, short, hot burns >instead of constant inefficient burning. Likewise, the sun will heat the >floor during the day, and the floor will give off the heat during the night. > > Now, you are correct in saying that if you turn the flow off you'll >have to let it flow longer before you feel the heat, because the mass must >charge. But as long as you don't take it to extremes with the thermal mass >that means that you get better efficiency out of the heater (fewer >startups) and more time between burns. > OK..... I'll bit.......What does Sgrìobh mean? And what language is it? It seems to me the much lower temps involved in radient floor, as opposed to masonry heaters, would result in too much time and energy being spent in rechargeing the mass if you were to let it give off most of its stored heat on a regular basis before supplying it with additional heated water. I used to live in a 33 unit co-op apartment building (NYC) which was all masonry (brick veneer ext walls, concrete slab roof, 4 individual concrete floor slabs , stairs) everything but interior partitions and they were double layers of 5/8" sheet rock. A lotta mass! As we would get into the heating season and all the individually controlled boilers (one for each apartment) would start to kick in on and off, day after day, there would never be a time when at least half of the 33 little boilers was not pumping hot water to the base board units. In other words, the building was being trickle charged by all these individual boilers going on and off all the time according to the individ ual thermostat settings. When the mass got up to speed three or four weeks into the season, the amount of time my boiler was on actually decreased, even though by then outside temps were consistantly lower. This would lead me to believe that since the buildings mass was never allowed to give up ! a majority of its heat the amount of energy used in total over the course of a season would be less than if all residents would have completely turned off their units en masse every other week. I really think with the lower temperatures involved the time it takes to recharge your massive floor should influence the way you operate the system. And dont forget that with radient floor much of your perception of warmth is given to the fact that your body is in direct contact with warmer objects such as the floor, tables and chairs even your mattress. I read some where thermostat settings are usually two degres lower on average with radient floor systems. It would seem the smaller the temp swing on these objects the more comfortable you would feel also......... No?........ But I dont have any statistics one way or the other. This is just my intuition speaking. I kind of see your point too. I guess the question of how long your boiler would run one way verse the other holds the answer. BTW........ when your driving your car and your running out of gas, do you drive faster to get to the gas station sooner or do you go slower to conserve fuel? see my point? I go slower. Sorry for the long post. Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 13:33:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA05625 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:33:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA18099 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:31:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11346; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:26:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:22:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA11013 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:22:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11007 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:22:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from vic-as-01c15.direct.ca ([204.174.246.47]) [204.174.246.47] by jack.direct.ca with smtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0xtGUP-0003Pr-00; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:27:34 -0800 X-Sender: abest#direct.ca@direct.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 10:25:36 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: abest@direct.ca (Andrew Best) Subject: GBlist: rooftop gardens Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1310 Peter I am currently designing a green hotel development that will include a significant amount of roof gardens (aprox 40,000 sq ft). One of the best sources of information I have found for answers to the questions you pose is Soprema Inc. of Quebec. Marie-anne Bolvin is the person to speak to and she is very knowledgable about their "Sopranature" roofing which is specifically for garden roofs. If you give her a call she could send you their info package which contains alot of good info. Their web page is http://greenbuilding.ca/soprema.html On a smaller scale there is a good diagram of a "Sod Roof Detail" in the Oct/Nov 1986 issue of Fine Homebuilding by Bo Heliwell of Blue Sky Architecure in Vancouver. Andrew Best ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 14:14:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06118 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:14:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA00622 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14090; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:08:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:03:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13357 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:03:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13346 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:03:38 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id O]R08198; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:05:30 EST To: strawboss94@juno.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:44:19 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: minimul wood stove Message-ID: <19980116.131631.3654.0.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <19980115.144639.4887.0.strawboss94@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,8-11,13-20,22-33 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1311 Burns Solar Oven (pg. 89 of our catalog). Light enough to take anywhere, ruggedly built, very durable. Fiberglass case, tempered glass door, polished reflectors, silicone rubber gaskets and carrying handle. Reaches temperatures of 360-400 degress F. Ideal for cooking meats, vegetables, bread or for sterilizing surgical instruments and purifying water. Weighs 21 pounds (19"X19"X11"). Price $260.00 Of course you can make an oven out of cardboard box and tin foil. The Girlscouts do it all the time. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:51:34 EST strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) writes: >I am searching for info on cooking stoves which burn about 25% to 50% >less wood than traditional cooking in Africa. As most know >deforestation is a critical problem in many African countries. It must >be low tech and cheap. Someone tells me there is a metal folding thing >which may be along this line but I have no particulars. >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 14:14:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06123 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:14:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA00658 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:13:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14113; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:08:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:04:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13379 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:03:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13349 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:03:39 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id O]S08198; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:05:30 EST To: obrien@hevanet.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:56:59 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Flames Message-ID: <19980116.131631.3654.1.sbtauto@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,6-15,17-54 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1312 Oh, it's getting worse now. As I am sure you can see (note the "idiot" post). It was just a matter of time. Ecological topics stimulate passion and on these lists we have those (proper term omitted) who never come out from behind the keyboard and we have practitioners who go out and make it happen. Fertile ground for conflict. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:51:48 -0800 "Mike O'Brien" writes: >Hi, Steve-- > >Did you read Richard's flame? He's already done it. > >Best, Mike > > > >>Mama says, "Don't start none and there won't be none." >> >>Steve Shepard >>SBT Automation >>210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 >>sbtauto@juno.com >>http://www.lore.net/~sbt >> >>On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:10:53 -0800 "Mike O'Brien" > >>writes: >>>Hi, all-- >>> >>>I was really shocked at Richard Moore's flame directed at Dona. >>______________________________________________________________________ >>This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >>Environmental Building News and Oikos > >>For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >>______________________________________________________________________ > > >O'Brien & Associates >Environmental Building Consultants >Earth Smart Program >obrien@hevanet.com > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 14:34:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06316 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:34:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA06012 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:33:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15503; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:27:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:23:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15045 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:23:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from cerberus.nga.com (root@nga.com [198.68.22.250]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15030 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:23:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from nga.nga.com (nga [192.168.1.10]) by cerberus.nga.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA00541 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:28:28 -0800 Received: by nga.nga.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22374; Fri, 16 Jan 98 11:28:29 PST Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 11:28:29 PST From: jim@nga.com (Jim Roy) Message-Id: <9801161928.AA22374@nga.nga.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Passive annual heat storage Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1313 Thanks list. a web search on "Passive annual heat storage" turns up lots of leads. I guess you just have to get the buzz words right. Jim Roy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 14:37:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06348 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:37:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA06896 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:36:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15834; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:30:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:26:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15366 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:26:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801161926.OAA15366@solstice.crest.org> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:22:36 -0500 From: Fred To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Report from Ice Town Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1314 Jorg said... >Would sustainable buildings (homes, commercial & office buildings) have >reduced the burden on people and the economy in eastern Canada and the NE US? Dear Jorg, Well, no. This weather event has given me an entirely new perspective on sustainability. We have a super insulated home, massive amounts of food, ten acres of woods, and large water storage tanks. We were off the grid for 107 and we just had to stop our routine for a while. But there is nothing green building can do for a Montreal home off-line for a month. Not even my envelope work is that good. Our power went off just after midnight and we were fortunate to have a merchants' card to get us into a Costco early. With a 30 amp generator in hand and access to gasoline, our troubles were reduced to pouring 3 gallons of fuel into the generator every 11 hours. I tried to keep an extra 12 gallons on hand, if things really got bad. I could have stretched that out to a week. Not too sustainable. We had to manage our electric load, and could not use the hot water heater or stove. This made our monthly electric bill seem pretty cheap. Other than that, it was a quiet time where I could do a lot of thinking and writing. How could me make it better? Not with a green house. Even with our excellent thermal envelope, we would have had to abandon the house after a few days without heat. Cars were using their headlights at noon, so there was no usable solar. EVERYTHING iced over so wind power would not work, not even the prop on my little weather station. People on public water systems had water. People with wood stoves had heat. People with generators had it made. Long term building rationality had very little to do with this short term catastrophe. I hate the idea of burning wood for heat, but that's what it would take to keep a house going without fresh petroleum stuff every day. Sadly, in Canada, people did freeze. This is particularly tragic since Montreal has more underground public shelter that any city save Moscow. There may have been lighting and access problems. The only deaths to my knowledge south of the border were from generator poisoning. This continues to illustrate the morbid depressurizing effect a two story house has on additions such as garages. This means that detached or disconnected (by air sealing) gargages are more sustainable. Most of the damage came from cellars filling up with water without a steady effort for a sump pump. So good (gravity) drainage is definitely part of sustainable building. PEX plumbing would be better because of it's resistance to freeze bursting, but I haven't seen anyone lable it a green building product. Our heating system, I know now, uses only 1.1 amps and that low consumption would have given use more options for powering it up if we could not get a generator. At one point, I was wondered whether the heater (monitor 30) or generator was consuming more fuel, but I let it go. I would (will) install an outlet on the outside to feed generator power into my electrical system. The cord I rigged to the generator was not reliable or safe. We were lucky that the roads were continually passable, but I do have chains. (((note to Southern folks: they go on the tires for bulldozer like traction))) 1800 power services in our county pulled off of houses, so that fight I had years ago to have the power company bury ours really paid off. Underground power is much more reliable, and expensive, and in my opinion sustainable. My friends who make computer uninteruptible power supplies tell me that extensive underground European distribution systems make it hard to sell there. There is no intuitive connection between lightning and blackouts. But the fact is, in my cold climate, we are totally dependent on a working economic and social system for our lives. Heroic line crews working 12 hour shifts under brutal conditions, from as far away as Hawaii, are the only reason there is not total property devastation here. Without operating civic centers with gasoline and power, many people would have died from exposure. I can't imagine the horror if we had an electrically based transportation system. Now I see cars as a widely dispersed, readily available, mobil power plants with their own built-in fuel storage. Regards, Fred Charlotte, Vermont http://www.weatherization.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 15:09:08 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA06705 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:09:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA16089 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:07:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA17673; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:02:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:58:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA17092 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:57:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA17085 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:57:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA14096; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:03:05 -0800 Message-ID: <34BFBBE8.4F39CB9D@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 11:58:32 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: [Fwd: EEBA-L: Living Roofs (Zer-Flor)] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5A5D2F4525656826417D0CAD" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1315 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5A5D2F4525656826417D0CAD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had this filed - thought I would pass it on. I think there is some more material in the archives. I know Switzerland, Germany, Holland all have thriving businesses dealing with living roofs or green roofs as there are a number of mandated programs that involve replacing the building footprint with an equivalent green roof area on commercial and industrial projects and probably includes some residential development. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. --------------5A5D2F4525656826417D0CAD Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >From owner-ee-building@crest.org Fri Aug 01 13:43:13 1997 Received: by seaside.net from localhost (router,SLMail V2.5); Fri, 01 Aug 1997 13:43:13 -0800 Received: by seaside.net from athena.digimark.net (208.202.26.20::mail daemon; unverified,SLMail V2.5); Fri, 01 Aug 1997 13:43:12 -0800 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by athena.digimark.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA19558; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:46:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA22317 for ee-building-outgoing; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:43:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: solstice.crest.org: majordom set sender to owner-ee-building@eeba.org using -f Received: from nciinc.com (gatekeeper.nciinc.com [204.243.73.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA22311; Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:43:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.243.73.3 (smtpgate.nciinc.com) by nciinc.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19966; Fri, 1 Aug 97 16:42:20 EDT Received: by 204.243.73.3 with Microsoft Mail id <33E27598@204.243.73.3>; Fri, 01 Aug 97 16:47:36 PDT From: "EREC - Duncan, Cameron" To: "'Cob Postings'" , "'EEBA_L Postings'" , "'ESSA Postings'" , "'Greenbuilding mailing list postings'" , "'Strawbale Posting'" Subject: EEBA-L: Living Roofs (Zer-Flor) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 16:46:00 PDT Message-Id: <33E27598@204.243.73.3> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-ee-building@crest.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "EREC - Duncan, Cameron" (Please pardon the cross-posting) Hello all, I've been conversing with a gentleman in southern Indiana who has been asking for information on a living roof assembly about which he's read marketing material. A Frankfurt, Germany or Netherlands organization had an arrangement with Virginia Polytechnic to grow some of their living roof/sound abatement systems to see what planting combinations would work best for various North American climates. Reportedly, the European company/group offered three living roof systems commonly employed in Europe for sound attenuation near airports, highways, etc. (1) Zer-Flor moss-sedum -- the lowest growing mix (2) Zer-Flor moss-herbal roof -- slightly taller mix (3) Zer-Flor grass-herbal roof -- tallest mix The assembly system of earth, drainage mediums, etc. was well thought-out and possibly part of the package. Of the two telephone numbers (no addresses) available, neither was a working number. He snooped around the Virginia Tech. architecture department, he says, without success--didn't try the horticultural department. Has anyone any information I could use to find out more about this? Other living roof approaches? Any architectural or horticultural groups I may contact that might know? (I checked the straw bale archives already) Thank you. Cameron Duncan EREC Architect, Technical Specialist CDUNCAN@nciinc.com ************************************************ US DOE Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Clearinghouse (EREC) P. O. Box 3048 Merrifield, VA 22116 Phone: (800) 363-3732; Fax: (703) 893-0400 International: (703) 287-8391; TDD: (800) 273-2957 Bulletin Board System (BBS): (800) 273-2955 EREC E-mail: doe.erec@nciinc.com EREC URL: (World Wide Web) http://erecbbs.nciinc.com/ EREN URL: (World Wide Web) http://www.eren.doe.gov/ (World Wide Web) http://www.eren.doe.gov/erec/factsheets/erec.html ************************************************ For more detailed information, look in our web site under "File Libraries." ********************************************* ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Energy Efficient Building list: sponsored by the Energy Efficient Building Association (EEBA), a non-profit educational organization with the assistance of CREST and Howard Associates # # # ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ --------------5A5D2F4525656826417D0CAD-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 15:18:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA06802 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:18:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA18750 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:17:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18361; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:11:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:07:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17911 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:07:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.167]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17849; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:05:36 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO Message-ID: Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:51:42 EST To: Permacltur@aol.com, jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca Cc: sullivan@oikos.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: minimul wood stove Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1316 The Brace Research Institute is at the McDonald Campus of McGill University, which is an agricultural branch of the university, located about 20 miles west of downtown Montreal where McGill is. The McDonald Campus is in a suburb called Ste. Anne de Bellevue. (Spent a few weeks there in a past life, after undergrad study at McGill.) Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 15:37:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA06999 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:37:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA24285 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:36:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA19388; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:30:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:25:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA19020 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:25:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19014 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from calvin.ampsc.com (calvin.ampsc.com [207.102.161.107]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA02020; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:34:19 -0800 Message-ID: <34BFC2A8.24F3@ampsc.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 12:27:20 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Best CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: rooftop gardens References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1317 Andrew Best wrote: > > Peter > > I am currently designing a green hotel development that will include a > significant amount of roof gardens (aprox 40,000 sq ft). One of the best > sources of information I have found for answers to the questions you pose > is Soprema Inc. of Quebec. Marie-anne Bolvin is the person to speak to and > she is very knowledgable about their "Sopranature" roofing which is > specifically for garden roofs. If you give her a call she could send you > their info package which contains alot of good info. Their web page is > http://greenbuilding.ca/soprema.html > > On a smaller scale there is a good diagram of a "Sod Roof Detail" in the > Oct/Nov 1986 issue of Fine Homebuilding by Bo Heliwell of Blue Sky > Architecure in Vancouver. > > Andrew Best I would suggest looking into built up tar paper roofing, without the flood coats, and topped with concrete, allowing for gravel filled drainage channels to direct water to the building drainage system. Works on decks over building occupations, like a hot damn, for seemingly forever, the tar roofing seals, and the concrete protects from all sysem erosion elements, and the gravel filters out large bulk sediments. Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 15:54:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA07139 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:54:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA28814 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:53:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20588; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:48:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:43:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20099 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:43:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA20089 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:43:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18705 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:48:26 GMT (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:48:25 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #24 To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199801160700.CAA15507@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1318 > Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:43:24 -0800 > From: David Melchert > Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: economics and environment > Take the laundry detergent we were discussing some weeks back (it came > as part of the thread on laundry discs). It was noted from laboratory > studies that the actual amount of detergent needed to effectivly clean a > load of laundry was a couple of tablespoons. This independent > information is contrary to everything we see on the boxes and on > commercials, where we see cupfuls being dumped in. I would hazard to > guess that the companies know full well that they recommend excess > servings, but that it enhances their profitability. (This would go along > with images of toothpaste, shaving cream and shampoo). Furthermore, this > is an environmentally-damaging situation, both in terms of manufacture > (resource-consumption and pollution) and use (pollution). (Let's leave > out the additional issues of the public's wasted wealth on the unneeded > purchases for simplicity.) > > OK, how does a free market effectively reduce or eliminate these wastes > and pollution? How would a public's value system change this? Who This is simple. Look around the world to Japan and Europe to see what has already happened there. If the cost of disposing of water from treatment where higher and reflected actual damage to streams, consumers would not wish to waste water in washing and Americans would have purchased the horizontal axis washing machines a long time ago (as Europe did, where thrwing water away is more expensive). Since it is not correct to price all water didposal higher (shower water is not bad waste), the detergent would be priced higher, probably by a charge per pound of phosphate (so no manufacturers would immediatley switch to the readily available low-phosphate brands while maintainin their profuit margins). If the price of energy were higher, trasnpotation cost would be higher and then it would worht havinf concentrated soap. Guess, what. In the land of "expensive" (read properly priced) energy, concentrated detergent is all the rage and widely available -- according to the Economist the problem remains that consumers dont like paying the same for less material (this is the consumers problem, not Arm and Hammer). Oh, and while we are at it, the washing machines would cost a bit more because the steel is more expensive, and lower-energy alternates might be used, and to reduce both water consumption and detergent consumption and drying energy consumption they would pe horizontal axis, hih rpm spin, with pre soak cycles -- gee, I guess they would like exactly ike my 15 year old AEG washing machine! Now, all of this has increased the price of doing laundry right? So the response is "all youve done is made my life more expensive". Well, right and wrong. For one, I have in fact made you pay for the lifestyle you lead. This will make you look for alternatives. Some bright Canuck or Yankee will then come up with a solution that is cheaper and more enviro friendly -- less resources, less pollution. Something like the GFX heat exchanger. Becasue labour is not taxed for its environmental damage, labour becomes effectively cheaper, which has some social beenfits (more employment). The coporation does not have to change it sethos and is allowed to continue to make the best product for the most profit -- the resulting product will now be more environmental, not because the tychoon feels good, but because the prices generated by a envrio-concious public have told him how to act. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 16:09:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA07387 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:09:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA03261 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:08:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA21683; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:02:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:58:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21304 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:58:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21290 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:58:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.101] (pa-ppp16.hevanet.com [204.119.60.101]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17914; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:03:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34BF81BB.86505EE1@ntplx.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:02:01 -0800 To: sherry@ntplx.net From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Central Hepa Filters Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1319 Hi, Sherry-- My sympathies! I have severe allergies to molds and dust also (allergic rhinitis and allergen-induced asthma). Has your daughter been diagnosed by an allergist using the skin test? If so, what was her reaction to dust mites (as distinguished from house dust)? I ask, because often people who are allergic to house dust are even more allergic to dust mites. If she reacted to mites, may I suggest that mite-proof mattress and pillow covers would be helpful? Mites thrive in mattresses and pillows because the body renews their humidity and food supply every night. And we may breathe the mite allergen while sleeping--because our face is so close to the mattress and pillow--before the room air filter has a chance to remove it. At our house we wash all the sheets, blankets and pillow cases weekly in hot water. And we just got a mite-proof cover for our comforter. One source for covers is Allergy Control Products, 1-800-422-DUST. They carry vapor permeable covers that maintain comfort better than poly casings (I've tried both). You can probably add a HEPA filter to the forced air system; all it takes is money and a willing heating contractor. ;^) HEPA filters require a new filter holder to be installed, because they are much bigger than a standard furnace filter (24"x24"x12"). The heating contractor will probably have to make sheet metal transitions to fit the new holder to the existing ductwork. Usually there's space at the furnace return where the old duct or plenum can be removed to make space for a new holder. Of course, there also needs to be enough space next to the holder for the bigger filter to slide in and out (for checking and replacement). HEPA filters resist air flow more than standard furnace filters (for example I'm looking at one that has a 0.65" wg pressure drop at 1000 cfm), so the heating person will have to determine if the blower fan that's currently in the furnace can handle the added air resistance. If not, he will have to upgrade the blower. That might not be all bad, because furnace blowers are usually inefficient and noisy; newer ones are able to run on low speed--good for continuous air circulation and filtration--as well as being efficient and quieter. The contractor can also install a switch so you can run the furnace in fan-only mode for air filtration separately from the thermostat. All this will not be too expensive IF the heating contractor wants to do it; if he is unwilling or uncertain, he may give you a high bid or estimate. Have you actually noticed mold or mildew anywhere in the house? Or basement? Or is there a crawl space? Any mold around high-moisture areas like window sills or shower stalls? Living in Connecticut, you probably experience high humidity in summer--does the humidity produce mold anywhere? Best, Mike >Greetings, I recently joined your list. > >I have a child that is acutely allergic to dust/mold. I am searching for >a hepa air filter that mounts in central duct work or a new technology >to fight the endless dust issue. > >To lay groundwork, all carpeting has been removed from our home, her >bedroom is sterile, and a Hunter air cleaner runs 24 hours a day. She is >receiving 2 shots weekly but because of modifying the environment >receives no other medication. > >Thanks for any assistance. >Sherry Kern-Altman >West Hartford, CT > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Earth Smart Program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 16:18:08 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA07477 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:18:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA06209 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:16:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22425; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:11:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:06:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA21840 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:06:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21836 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:06:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5.carleton.ca [134.117.136.25]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v2.02) with ESMTP id QAA07064; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:11:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id QAA11332; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:11:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:11:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801162111.QAA11332@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: Economics and Environment (A RANT) Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1320 Hello Economists and Ecologists; To further fan the flames of this debate... If it were realistic to expect that Commerce would truly embrace Sustainability, you'd think that in the interests of long-term self-preservation, sustainable practices would first become evident in the Resource sector. Is it any coincidence that the Maytag RepairGuy of the GB list (BCJohnS ), the seemingly lone voice expressing scepticism ... lives in an area whose traditional industries are resource-based ...and who (I presume) sees first-hand on a daily basis, the effects of Enlightened Forestry, Fishing and Mining practices in the '90's ? The other voices which believe that Commerce can behave morally and ethically seem to, without exception, live in highly urbanised areas where it is easier to dissociate the milk fom the barnyard... a capability I attribute largely to the skill of the Spin Doctors that Commerce spends billion$$$ on each year to promote itself. If Reader's Digest (RD)(that Icon of Literacy and Arbiter of Good Judgement for the Masses) is any indication the level of Green Awareness that the Market Trend Analysers use to advise their clients... then John's scepticism would seem to silly indeed. Ronald Bailey writes in an article in Jan/98 RD, quoting various scientists and academics (you don't want to know how I came upon it)... [debunking Paul Ehrlich's views (The Population Bomb)], "(over-population is not a problem]... if technology improves at today's rate, it will be possible (in 2040) to feed ten billion people on roughly the same amount of land that is currently devoted to agriculture" [debunking Rachel Carson (Silent Spring)], "(man-made chemicals are not dangerous and are not causing problems)...the vast bulk of chemicals humans are exposed to are natural... 99.99% of the pesticides we eat are naturally found in plants" [debunking Theo Colborn (Our Stolen Future)] "(sperm counts are not declining, concentrations of DDT in human fatty tissue is decreasing)" [debunking Norman Meyers (The Sinking Ark) "(rate of species extinction is not a problem) ... biologists who predict high extinction rates underestimate the resiliency of nature ... in countries that practise modern high-yield agriculture, forest are in no danger" Some other Jewels of Wizdumb from the same article: "Although skin-cancer rates are up, the increase, according to most scientists, is attributable to life-style changes, not a thinner ozone layer" "(Global warming is not a problem)...It may be prudent to limit CO2 emissions in the future. But many experts feel there is no need to rush into drastic action". === * === Whew! "Thank you Ronald Bailey!" What a relief ! Think I'll go out and buy myself a big, honking Cadillac convertible to make those trips into town for a bag of milk just a little nicer. -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 16:18:15 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA07482 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:18:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA06237 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:17:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22484; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:11:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:07:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA21882 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:06:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21874 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:06:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from calvin.ampsc.com (calvin.ampsc.com [207.102.161.107]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA03148; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:15:23 -0800 Message-ID: <34BFCC47.6D16@ampsc.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 13:08:23 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding Listserver , "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Re: flames licking at the green building list... References: <3.0.32.19980116004110.006f09d4@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1321 Bion D. Howard wrote: > > off list message: > > Please -- > > Mellow out and stick to the issues. > I would be embarrassed to write this stuff... > There are hundreds of people on list, and your stuff will be > archived for future generations to marvel at. > Not your private rumpus room... OK? Bion, I am sorry you object to my finding offense in the promotions on the list, to the problem of densification impact on the environment, and my descriptive caricature of them. I am suprised that there seems to be support for eradicating the population, in favor of the environment, and cocentration of efforts on how to can the sardine more effectively, instead of accepting that de-densification and minimizing the occupied footprint are two rational and successful treatments to the problem. I was going to individually write to each of the others who have objected to my reference to the idiots and sick members on the GBlist, howev4r, it appears all to evident that commercialization of greening and the resulting reliance upon for livleyhood have corrupted otherwise fine and normal minds to an obvious state of ignorance and self-centering narcissum. ie. Bruce, Dan, John....... You won't find me continuing this thread, but you will find me suggesting practical and workable solutions to problems. You see, I am part of the solution and a professional problem solver, not part of the problem as youse are.....[g] Keep in mind, I am not totally without support on this list, and I was immensely complimented when my views were compared to those of Frank Lloyd Wright's, god bless his work and achievements. My architect brother and pupil of FLW would be proud.....[g]. Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 16:20:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA07518 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:20:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA07151 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:19:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22701; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:14:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:09:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22145 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:09:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22134 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:09:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.22] (mke-1-6.binc.net [208.142.229.22]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA24248; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:13:44 -0600 Message-Id: <199801162113.PAA24248@glacier.binc.net> Subject: GBlist: Re: Air Spaces and Claddings- question Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 10:14:33 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "John Straube" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1322 Along this thread- can anyone offer experiential advice on how to design a drainage plane over structural insulated panels and under traditional stucco or EIFS? I'm not worried about moisture migration, but I am concerned about the inevitable leak around a window or door. Thanks, Chris Koehn Top Ridge Homes ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 18:02:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA09807 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:02:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA06655 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 18:01:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA27099; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:55:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:49:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA26711 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:49:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailnfs0.tiac.net (mailnfs0.tiac.net [199.0.65.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA26704 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:49:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from p8.ts1.nhamp.MA.tiac.com (p8.ts1.nhamp.MA.tiac.com [207.60.24.105]) by mailnfs0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with SMTP id RAA01832; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:54:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by p8.ts1.nhamp.MA.tiac.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BD22A7.69FCCD20@p8.ts1.nhamp.MA.tiac.com>; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:51:46 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD22A7.69FCCD20@p8.ts1.nhamp.MA.tiac.com> From: Duncan Prahl To: "'sbtauto@juno.com'" , "'strawboss94@juno.com'" Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: minimul wood stove Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:01:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id RAA26708 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1323 I've got one. I use it to cook hot dogs at the beach at my summer house. Works fantastic. A little clumsy to carry, but it sure beats the 1/4 mile walk back up to the house to cook lunch. -----Original Message----- From: sbtauto@juno.com [SMTP:sbtauto@juno.com] Sent: Friday, January 16, 1998 1:44 PM To: strawboss94@juno.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: minimul wood stove Burns Solar Oven (pg. 89 of our catalog). Light enough to take anywhere, ruggedly built, very durable. Fiberglass case, tempered glass door, polished reflectors, silicone rubber gaskets and carrying handle. Reaches temperatures of 360-400 degress F. Ideal for cooking meats, vegetables, bread or for sterilizing surgical instruments and purifying water. Weighs 21 pounds (19"X19"X11"). Price $260.00 Of course you can make an oven out of cardboard box and tin foil. The Girlscouts do it all the time. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:51:34 EST strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) writes: >I am searching for info on cooking stoves which burn about 25% to 50% >less wood than traditional cooking in Africa. As most know >deforestation is a critical problem in many African countries. It must >be low tech and cheap. Someone tells me there is a metal folding thing >which may be along this line but I have no particulars. >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 19:19:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA11572 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:19:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA25900 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:18:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00115; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:12:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:08:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA29837 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:08:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from saclink3.csus.edu (saclink3.csus.edu [130.86.82.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA29830 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 19:08:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801170008.TAA29830@solstice.crest.org> Received: from PC-ANTHRO-04.mnh.csus.edu by saclink3.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA223405999; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:13:19 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "PE" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:53:02 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: economics and environment Reply-To: sac28787@saclink.csus.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1324 Seth, my small part in the discussion underlined the touching faith some have in the holy Market, before which all knees bend, and gave a few names of folk who've seen the bottom-line culture and suggested cures. I also cautioned, and do again, that proposed cures are incomplete without fallback positions for their likely failure. For that, much splutter and repeated incantation of 'marxist' (like 'heretic,' a good substitute for thought) resulted in public and private, though Dan Hemenway (idiot? moron? sick? I forget who's called what) was amused enough by the image of progress headlong downhill to send 3 comments stressing the hill's silver bottom. No, detergents aren't needed beyond 2% concentration, but that won't sell detergent, not even New and Improved. Mother Market has no use for reduced consumption, just brand and gadget switches. For those spooked by mention of (gasp) Marx, William Leiss' Limits To Satisfaction are an adequate diagnosis of current ills. For discussants distressed by the vituperation of a few, a partial quote from Mark Twain: it is by the goodness of god that we here in America have these 3 precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence NEVER to practice either. And for true believers, a parting blessing: RJR Saves. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 20:12:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA13660 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:12:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA09417 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:11:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA01683; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:06:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:00:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA01374 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:00:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA01369 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:00:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from calvin.ampsc.com (tintin.ampsc.com [207.102.161.176]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA09763; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:08:44 -0800 Message-ID: <34C002F3.752C@ampsc.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:01:39 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kurt Rathmann CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: flames licking at the green building list... References: <3.0.32.19980116004110.006f09d4@popd.ix.netcom.com> <34BFCC47.6D16@ampsc.com> <34BFEBB7.36E3@uidaho.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1325 Kurt Rathmann wrote: > > > Keep in mind, I am not totally without support on this list, and I was > > immensely complimented when my views were compared to those of Frank > > Lloyd Wright's, god bless his work and achievements. My architect > > brother and pupil of FLW would be proud.....[g]. > > Hi Richard, > I carry respect for FLW's work, but do not necessarily agree with many > of his views - nor many of yours. Your opinion simply reminded me of > FLW. Although I differ with you, I don't recall addressing you as > "idiot" in a public forum. Do not confuse courtesy and respect with > support. I do not support your incessant derisive and derogatory tone > towards others on this list. > > Sincerely, > Kurt Rathmann > Moscow, Idaho I really don't want to do this, since I posted I would not continue this thread, but in light of your note, I included a quote of what prompted me to make usage of the word 'idiot', "Richard: This just destroyes more land. People have to change, then housing density will change. In my pretty well informed view, the problem will be self-correcting by an abrupt reduction that removes most or all of the human population. The point is to minimize the damage we do in the meanwhile. Of course we also try to avoid the population collapse, but odds of almost infinite proportions are against success there. Dan Hemenway" now, Kurt, doesn't Dan's pretty well informed view sound a little idiotic? PS. it appears to me, at least, that your reference to FLW in regards to my comments, is, in deed, a comparison, and yes I find the comparison to be a compliment. Richard. -- R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 20:43:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA14357 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:43:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA17319 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:42:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03063; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:37:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:33:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA02747 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:33:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheetah.pacinfo.com (root@cheetah.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA02738 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:32:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (p22.s2.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.204]) by cheetah.pacinfo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00758 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 17:38:17 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <34C002F3.752C@ampsc.com> References: Conversation <3.0.32.19980116004110.006f09d4@popd.ix.netcom.com> with last message <34C002F3.752C@ampsc.com> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Clan Handley" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: flames licking at the green building list... Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 17:30:00 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id UAA02741 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1326 > The point is to minimize the damage we do in the meanwhile. Of > course we also try to avoid the population collapse, but odds of almost > infinite proportions are against success there. > > Dan Hemenway" > > now, Kurt, doesn't Dan's pretty well informed view sound a little > idiotic? With all due respect, Richard, if you don't see that a catastrophic human population crash is imminent within the next hundred years, you haven't been doing your homework. Our population is probably already over the carrying capacity of the planet. That situation will not be improved by spreading people out in homes with smaller footprints. Unless we haul our collective ass out of the boiling water we are not going to avoid the population collapse. Before you call me an idiot, go to www.dieoff.org. Barbara http://www.angelfire.com/or/ishmael Ishmael -- Resources for Further Study ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 22:05:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA16329 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:05:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA05897 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 22:04:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05174; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 21:57:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 21:52:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA04779 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 21:51:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA04774 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 21:51:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id ViT11338; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 21:53:47 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: : african stove Message-ID: <19980116.204857.4751.7.strawboss94@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-21,23-46 From: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 21:53:47 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1327 --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: Geoffrey Greenfield To: strawboss94@juno.com Subject: african stove Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:09:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <199801161909.OAA15980@big.seorf.ohiou.edu> hey there- low tech works in africa! I was a peace corps volunteer in zaire, and we had some secondary projects going to promote the "improved 3 rock" stove. In addition to the environmental issues, anything to reduce the labor demands on the african woman is great- as she does ALL the work! Fetching water and wood are a big chore- so, solar is great but requires outside inputs. Where I was at in zaire, it was local materials or nothing... Another principle of appropriate tech is to go with local knowledge and activities. Women cook on the ground, using 3 similar sized stones and feeding the fire with longer pieces of wood (less choping with machette)... The stones would stabilize the temp and the cook pot. Anyway, the improved model was a similar set up, but instead of 3 rocks, a clay sand grass mixture was hand sculpted to a round stove with openings on two sides for air and fuel adjustment/adding, and a custom "rim" made to fit the pot(s) of the household. a couple recessions in the rim for smoke exit/stack effect and: voila! the improved 3 stone model. While not as efficient as the lorena stoves (great book/technology) it was successfull where the larger lorena wasn't... and very easy to make, and promote. In fact, i trained some women who trained some women who trained some women who... While i built a lorena for myself (2 burner with hot water storage... but it needs a chimney and was rejected by the women in my village so i chose not to try to promote it (it is based on mountain asia traditions....) ANYWAYZ- it reduced boiling times, smoke and fuel usage by about 25% (our field tests) and most importantly, is still being spread while i am here stateside in my little solar timberframe. ps- could you post this to the greenlist for me- my server wont let me. -- /----\ /----\ / (614) 448-6103 \_/ 16751 Hooper Ridge Road \ ( (800) 686-1093 * Millfield, OH 45761 ) \ / \ / \....without love in the dream it will never come true..../ --------- End forwarded message ---------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 16 23:51:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA19207 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:51:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA02985 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:50:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA07750; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:44:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:38:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA07448 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:38:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA07444 for ; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 23:38:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA29002; Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:43:46 -0800 Message-ID: <34C03601.878B0961@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:39:29 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: re: Economics and Environment (A RANT) References: <199801162111.QAA11332@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1328 So did you lift that copy of RD from the dentists or was that a portable scanner at work, either way I'm impressed - nothing short of detente for the list. Meanwhile I am getting rather worried that some sort of brain fever is running amock a short distance from me in our provincial capital or perhaps its a case of an indoor air specialist holding his breath for too long in any event some infectious levity flung in that direction might help as well. And yes there is a great deal of evidence of self preservation in the resource sector here but not much in the way of resources. The only resource left to 'drive' the BC economy (a surprisingly larger economic resource than mining and forestry combined) is union pension funds. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Robert W. Tom wrote: > Hello Economists and Ecologists; > > To further fan the flames of this debate... > > If it were realistic to expect that Commerce would truly embrace > Sustainability, you'd think that in the interests of long-term > self-preservation, sustainable practices would first become > evident in the Resource sector. > > Is it any coincidence that the Maytag RepairGuy of the GB list > (BCJohnS ), the seemingly lone voice expressing scepticism ... > lives in an area whose traditional industries are resource-based > ...and who (I presume) sees first-hand on a daily basis, the > effects of Enlightened Forestry, Fishing and Mining practices in > the '90's ? > > The other voices which believe that Commerce can behave morally > and ethically seem to, without exception, live in highly > urbanised areas where it is easier to dissociate the milk fom the > barnyard... a capability I attribute largely to the skill of the > Spin Doctors that Commerce spends billion$$$ on each year to > promote itself. > > If Reader's Digest (RD)(that Icon of Literacy and Arbiter of Good > Judgement for the Masses) is any indication the level of Green > Awareness that the Market Trend Analysers use to advise their > clients... then John's scepticism would seem to silly indeed. > > Ronald Bailey writes in an article in Jan/98 RD, quoting various > scientists and academics (you don't want to know how I came upon > it)... > > [debunking Paul Ehrlich's views (The Population Bomb)], > "(over-population is not a problem]... if technology > improves at today's rate, it will be possible (in 2040) to > feed ten billion people on roughly the same amount of land > that is currently devoted to agriculture" > > [debunking Rachel Carson (Silent Spring)], > "(man-made chemicals are not dangerous and are not causing > problems)...the vast bulk of chemicals humans are exposed to > are natural... 99.99% of the pesticides we eat are naturally > found in plants" > > [debunking Theo Colborn (Our Stolen Future)] > "(sperm counts are not declining, concentrations of DDT in > human fatty tissue is decreasing)" > > [debunking Norman Meyers (The Sinking Ark) > "(rate of species extinction is not a problem) ... > biologists who predict high extinction rates underestimate > the resiliency of nature ... in countries that practise > modern high-yield agriculture, forest are in no danger" > > Some other Jewels of Wizdumb from the same article: > > "Although skin-cancer rates are up, the increase, > according to most scientists, is attributable to life-style > changes, not a thinner ozone layer" > > "(Global warming is not a problem)...It may be prudent to > limit CO2 emissions in the future. But many experts feel > there is no need to rush into drastic action". > === * === > > Whew! "Thank you Ronald Bailey!" > What a relief ! Think I'll go out and buy myself a big, honking Cadillac > convertible to make those trips into town for a bag of milk just a little > nicer. > > -- > Rob Tom > ---------- * ------------ > be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca > Kanata, Ontario, Canada > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 17 01:50:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA21667 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:50:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA00267 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:49:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA09604; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:43:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:37:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA09366 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:37:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.170]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA09362 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:37:13 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1 Message-ID: <927bae43.34c052d2@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 01:42:24 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Noah's Ark Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1329 Greenbuilders, A friend sent this to me and I thought those on the GBlist considering "unique" construction systems might enjoy it. Chris Mathis ***** And the Lord spoke to Noah and said: "In six months I am going to make it rain until the whole earth is covered with water and all the evil people are destroyed. But I want to save a few good people, and two of every kind of living thing on the planet. I am ordering you to build Me an Ark." And in a flash of lightning He delivered the specifications for an Ark. "OK," said Noah, trembling in fear and fumbling with the blueprints. "Six months, and it starts to rain," thundered the Lord. "You'd better have My Ark completed, or learn how to swim for a very long time." And six months passed. The skies began to cloud up and rain began to fall. The Lord saw that Noah was sitting in his front yard, weeping. And there was no Ark. "Noah," shouted the Lord, "where is My Ark?" A lightning bolt crashed into the ground next to Noah. "Lord, please forgive me!" begged Noah. "I did my best. But there were big problems. First I had to get a building permit for the Ark construction project, and Your plans didn't meet code. So I had to hire an engineer to redraw the plans. Then I got into a big fight over whether or not the Ark needed a fire sprinkler system. My neighbors objected, claiming I was violating zoning by building the Ark in my front yard, so I had to get a variance from the city planning commission. Then I had a big problem getting enough wood for the Ark because there was a ban on cutting trees to save the Spotted Owl. I had to convince U.S. Fish and Wildlife that I needed the wood to save the owls. But they wouldn't let me catch any owls. So no owls. Then the carpenters formed a union and went out on strike. I had to negotiate a settlement with the National Labor Relations Board before anyone would pick up a saw or a hammer. Now we have 16 carpenters going on the boat, and still no owls. Then I started gathering up animals, and got sued by an animal rights group. They objected to me taking only two of each kind. Just when I got the suit dismissed, the Environmental Protection Agency notified me that I could not complete the Ark without filing an environmental impact statement on your proposed flood. They didn't take kindly to the idea that they had no jurisdiction over the conduct of a Supreme Being. Then the Army Corps of Engineers wanted a map of the proposed new flood plain. I sent them a globe. Right now I'm still trying to resolve a complaint from the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission over how many Croatians I'm supposed to hire, the IRS has seized all my assets claiming I'm trying to avoid paying taxes by leaving the country, and I just got a notice from the state about owing some kind of use tax. I really don't think I can finish Your Ark for at least another five years," Noah wailed. The sky began to clear. The sun began to shine. A rainbow arched across the sky. Noah looked up and smiled. "You mean You're not going to destroy the earth?" Noah asked, hopefully. "No," said the Lord sadly, "The Government already has." ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 17 02:15:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA22241 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 02:15:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA04388 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 02:13:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA10654; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 02:08:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 17 Jan 1998 02:04:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA10338 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 02:03:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA10334 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 02:03:52 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 02:07:26 EST To: dmelchert@earthlink.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Re: economics and environment Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1330 re: The laundry detergent charrette: Seth, There is an unstated presumption in the outline of your charrette of an evil conspiracy by the detergent industry to get us all to use way too much unnecessary product. I'd be very surprised if this were the case. But as we know from the oil industry and are seeing in the tobacco trials, once free markets are compromised by monopoly practice, all sorts of things are possible. Personally, I'd want to see more than one study before I jump to such conclusions, but I will experiment with less detergent in the next load of laundry this weekend. For arguments sake, lets presume the research is correct and a couple spoons full would do the trick. Here's my naive simple minded approach. The first question: where is the leverage to intervene in the system most effectively: a) As a consumer: not much leverage there except on a personal level. b) As a government regulator: After years of study and debate you could promulgate regulations dictating everything from the formulation of detergent and the labeling on the box, to how and where advertising is permissible. (we don't want impressionable young kids exposed to those habit forming detergent commercials) When all is said in done, even if the well intentioned goals are somewhat forwarded, the prices will be higher for everyone and future creativity and innovation in the industry will be stifled. c) As a consumer advocate or environmental alarmist: You may get a bunch of people angry, make a name for yourself and help some lawyers get rich. The best possible practical outcome toward a solution would be to enable a government regulator (see b above), after adding even more unnecessary costs for the consumer in paying off the legal settlements in every teaspoon of detergent. d) As a detergent manufacturer: You have the knowledge, resources, distribution and marketing systems and the profit motive to quickly and easily impact the system in a major and positive way. If creative, you can dramatically bring down consumer costs by revealing "the true secrets to bright white laundry" that have been hidden for years by a neanderthal and inefficient industry. (Any company large enough to manipulate the type of monopolistic conspiracy that you are presuming, will also be bloated, bureaucratic and ripe for a gorilla attack by a shrewd and nimble competitor.) To effect a real solution, I would first choose to be an player with leverage. (The answer to the quiz is D). So, If I were a detergent manufacturer (and I didn't have a monopoly), I would try to grab market share by publicizing the hell out of my new miracle detergent that makes clothes whiter and brighter with just a couple spoons full. To avoid Ralph Nader's lawyers and the truth in advertising bureaucrats, I'd probably change some inert ingredient so it really was a new formula. But I wouldn't feel at all ethically burdened putting the same old stuff in a new box. Just by changing the directions on the cover, it lasts ten times as long for only twice the price. (sure I'd raise the price to whatever the market will bear) Five times more value for my customers than my leading competitors, and I am going to clean up on profits. Who could have ever imagined, that just by being honest, I could garnish five or ten times the profit margins selling a lowly commodity item like soap, that Intel makes on selling microprocessors. (See what I mean about the presumption of this whole charrette being a little unlikely. It is fun though) When competitors respond with similar advertising and a price war, I'll call their bluff and raise the ante. Let the price wars begin. There's surely plenty of room to drop prices in this scenario. Of course you might argue this would eventually spiral profits down to unsustainable levels, driving everyone out of business. Perhaps, I doubt it, and it's all in the plan. I'll create a cash war chest derived from preemptively "right-sizing" my operation to match the reduced demand, and beating the competition by months or likely years in the new marketing paradigm (Huge companies that enter conspiratorial collusions aren't real fast on their feet. They'd have to do studies and hire consultants and try to sue me before they hit on a strategy like actually competing with me). I'd pour money into R & D in order find a way to add truly unique value in my product or delivery system, so as to beat the competition at the next level of the game. In the end I know the efficient producers of the best products will win. "Winning", by being a smart and honest player won't enable me to vanquish my competitors, it's what I have to do just to stay in the game. If detergent is truly effective at low quantities, eventually at least a few players will match their production costs to the lowest sustainable pricing levels for the most efficient products they can make. When the air clears and the price wars are over, we'll all have new expectations about laundry soap and less pollution in our rivers and steams. Seth, I don't know anything about the detergent business, but I would suspect this scenario is being played out constantly, unless the whole industry is reduced to only one or two monopolistic enterprises putting out supposedly "competing products" under different brand names and fixing prices. If this is the case, and it's really true that only a little dab will do ya, real detergent executives should be putting help wanted ads in Sunday's paper under "lawyer", because it won't be long before Janet Reno will be knocking on their doors. Alas, there is a legitimate role for government in my simple world. I might even propose that the government break up every company that grows to more than about a hundred or two hundred employees. Sure, that's kind of arbitrary, but government can set the rules of the game to match whatever we value as a society. Personally I think it's a fairer, more interesting and more creative game with lots of small players. Two hundred employees should be more than enough to generate all the excitement and profit any reasonable person could wish for. The issues and problems we are concerned with are often more a matter of scale than of systems or technology. (any ideas on the details for such a law?) In my every day world, I do know well the brutally competitive pressures of the building industry with its thousands of independent companies. I do some fairly presentable marketing and advertising. I've made enough money selling to know I'm a decent salesman. Yet I have a real hard time convincing my customers to pay unreasonable prices or do wasteful and foolish things. (except of course for the unreasonable things mandated by the building code) If your underlying presumption is true, how about this year we all skip sending contributions to the Sierra Club, Earth First and all the other alarmist do-gooders. Rather than funding more sermons for the choir and lobbyists drafting complicated unproductive or counter productive mandates, instead let's start an investment fund. We'll buy a detergent manufacturing company and do something effective about the problem. Wouldn't our money better be spent on such a practical and radical act. With the profits from our detergent venture we can tackle the next problem on your list. Why am I such a nut on these foolish ideals of liberty, freedom and enterprise? I got a degree in environmental studies and thought about being a government regulator or one of those clean up guys that charges folks a fortune to take polluted dirt out of one hole and move it to another hole. But those careers seemed really futile and boring. So I spent several years working for nonprofit government funded community action agencies doing energy conservation and other good work for low income folks, but the inefficiency and rampant corruption were disheartening. I tried the academic scene for about a year but found the pace such that I constantly had to check my pulse to make sure I was still alive. I was active in the protest scene for many years and just burned out because the constant negativism had me involved in so many problems but no solutions. When I was twenty three, I even tried standing in front of factory gates handing out "For The People", a local communist party newspaper. That lasted until I slowed down long enough to actually think about what I was reading in the foolish things. Eventually I decided that the most radical, progressive, creative and environmentally friendly work I could do would be growing food or building houses (or making detergent) in a positive way. Then it was simply a matter of finding something fun to do. I got a nice E-mail the other day from Vicky Hayes who mentioned she was "going over" to the private sector after twenty years in government. For her and others like her, I can only say: go for it. It's fun. It's exciting. It's scary as hell some times. Like life itself, it is very imperfect. And it's even more addictive than this darn greenbuilder list. For those that haven't tried it, you really should. Let us know how it goes. As for Mikes comment that "Markets know the price of everything and the value of nothing". That is exactly as it should be. Ideals without action are meaningless. They have no value. The market place is the primary arena where we as human beings get to act on our ideals. Its is only by being a player in the game that our ideals become relevant. Though the market knows no value, it is a wonderful vehicle that enables us to create value from our ideals and imagination. Seth, thanks for the charrette. Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 17 09:21:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA29611 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 09:21:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA02411 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 09:20:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15893; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 09:15:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 17 Jan 1998 09:09:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15618 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 09:09:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15614 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 09:09:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA150868; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 07:13:19 -0700 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 07:13:19 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Fred Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Defence against Weather Wars (Report from Ice Storms) In-Reply-To: <199801161926.OAA15366@solstice.crest.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1331 Fred: Further to your recent post, please find attached another view on sustainable homes and weather wars. _______________________________________________________________________ We are now in Day 11 of no electricity, but it's not a major problem. My house, as you know, is superinsulated, passive solar so on sunny days we're fine and the rest of the time we keep the airtight wood stove going for heat and cooking. We don't even use our camping stove which is set up on the porch. In the evening we light candles and drink wine -- very romantic. I get drinking water in a jerry can when I'm in town and I have a 45-70 litre capacity at home. I shower at work or sponge bathe at home -- as an offshore sailor I'm used to bathing in 1 litre of fresh water. For flushing toilets we use melted snow. The contents of the chest freezer are in laundry baskets (we are not doing any laundry!) and we put the refrigerator's contents in the freezer with a lump of ice from outdoors. We did splurge for a portable AC/DC tv which I run off a car battery. I predict a big surge in popularity for independent power and for self-powering gas and oil furnaces. My big surprise is the 2nd biggest problem -- flooded basements from lack of sump pumps! I would think we wouldn't build houses that require constant plumbing. tim ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 17 10:59:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01391 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:59:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21734 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:58:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17831; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:52:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:48:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17524 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:48:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17520 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:48:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KNU18879; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:52:41 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist:why? min. wood stove Message-ID: <19980117.094828.4743.2.strawboss94@juno.com> References: <199801160033.TAA28048@transfer.usit.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 11-12,14-15,19,21-25 From: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:52:41 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1332 We have worked with a missionary Bible training school in Malawi for 35 years. During those years the country has become almost entirely deforested due to need for cooking, heating and lighting. Now women spend an inordinate amount of time and energy walking long distances just to chop a few scrub bush for a meager wood supply. Increasingly, rainy season and poor economic conditions are worsening the health and future of the local people. While we generally do not interfer with local custon or culture, this seems to be getting to a crisis state. Since we have a long term presence there and access to information they might choose to apply it seems appropriate to offer. Jesus indicated in Matt 25:40 "inasmuch as you did it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me" ( KJV) that this is our responsibility. On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:33:18 -0500 (EST) betsy hooper & buddy floyd writes: >At 03:51 PM 1/15/98 EST, you wrote: >> searching for info on cooking stoves which use >>less wood than traditional cooking in Africa. As most know deforestation >>is a critical problem in many African countries. It must be low tech >and >>cheap. x >perhaps approach to cooking itself needs to beconsidered x> >I confess though, that I am at a loss to determine why you are looking >for >an efficient wood stove for African cooking. > >Betsy Hooper > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 17 11:43:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA02349 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA02476 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:42:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19140; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:36:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:32:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18850 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:32:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18846 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:32:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA04280; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:37:31 -0800 Message-ID: <34C0DD48.E8D96F82@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 08:33:12 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Defence against Weather Wars (Report from Ice Storms) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1333 One of the aspects that inspires or has motivated the development of greenbuilding is safety i.e. safety of inhabitants safety for the environment. This has been developed as reduction of contaminants in building materials, reduction of energy usage, minimizing env. impact, etc. If sustainable buildings were the norm then the values, programs and institutions in place to develop this practice of building would also have an effect on the infrastructure. Transportation, power, disaster planning, etc. would be developed with an enhanced criteria of safety and sensitivity to environmental conditions. These criteria of course already exist both in building and planning however I do think it is one of the distinguishing criteria of greenbuilding that these criteria are more researched, better understood, and more fully implemented. I cannot say what the outcome of this would be, perhaps negligible in the face of events we cannot fully plan for but personally I think the change would be significant. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 17 13:25:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA04525 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:25:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA28622 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:24:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22050; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:19:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:14:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21784 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:13:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21780 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:13:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA05750; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:18:50 -0800 Message-ID: <34C0F505.56E26307@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 10:14:30 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Roy CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: annual passive design References: <9801152106.AA17773@nga.nga.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1334 I just realized there was a very good discussion on PAH'S on the strawbale list in Dec. I was away then. Archives at http://solstice.crest.org/efficiency/strawbale-list-archive/index.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 17 13:57:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA05153 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:57:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06070 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:56:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23101; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:50:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:45:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22775 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:45:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.170]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22771 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:45:34 -0500 (EST) From: NMBlues Message-ID: <3116755e.34c0fd7f@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 13:50:36 EST To: JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #24 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1335 In a message dated 98-01-16 15:50:46 EST, you write: << Becasue labour is not taxed for its environmental damage, labour becomes effectively cheaper, which has some social beenfits (more employment). >> I like this idea---I would love to see some discussion of this one item alone. My first few thoughts--- A. One of my concerns about pre-fabricated housing/building systems is that it does eliminate work for people---it also seems to take some of the "soul" out of building, that aesthetic imparted, at least to some degree, by the involvement of many people. B. Instead of using technology to take people's work away and make higher profits, I would dream that we could use it to enhance the creativity, imagination, efficiency that we put into our buildings/land development/or decision not to develop. Personally, I see everyone's work as important---I think it is very important to have an architect who has a handle on the big picture and pulls together a team of consultants to work on that job---Or if a structural engineer is designing an auxillary building to a bridge, to consult the appropriate energy experts and architects---Or if masterplanning, architects and landscape architects and permaculturists (dowsers if you desire) and environmental engineers should be working together. All of these should have generous input of work from as many people as will be using the building as possible. I am always concerned when I see people in our building industry who say that they can do it all and no consultants are necessary---when architects give all the HVAC advice or contractors design all their own work or interior designers design the electrical system. We all have a purpose, knowledge and creativity along with experience to bring to a problem. It is all generally mental labor, but the value of it tends to be undermined, often by our own desire to be the only "creator" of some ripple in the landscape. C. Lastly, if we valued "labor" (--mental, physical and spiritual-- [and it went untaxed]) as much as we do "things" (and we used the actual, real cost of "things"), then planting trees, selective harvesting, careful installation of building products for less waste, custom designs, intricate woodwork, optimalization of shapes for a specific microclimate, study of the microclimate, deconstruction of existing buildings, renovation of existing buildings, sorting of materials, etc., ad infinitum, would not be considered profit margin eating efforts. They could [in my dream] be profit making enterprises. Some of them actually already are, as the less resource rich areas of the world continue to remind us Americans. Well, I have lots more to say but I am going to save it for later. Thanks, John for the push to my brain. Dona Stankus, AIA Raleigh, NC ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 17 16:20:32 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA09504 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:20:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA10581 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:19:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA27597; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:14:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:09:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA27078 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:08:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27071 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:08:21 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl Message-ID: <725ba198.34c11ed0@aol.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:12:46 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: heat load calculations Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA27072 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1336 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 12:55:31 -0800 From: khassan Subject: GBlist: heat load calculations >>Thanks to all who replied to my request for info. I've come to the conclusion that if I do the calcs myself I won't be any better or worse than I would be I used a contractor who used the "canned formula". I recently came across a book by Charlie Wing..".The Visual Handbook of Building and Remodeling" that has a chapter on heating with a worksheet to calculate heat load. I think that with the info from the List and this book I'll be able to do a creditable job of calculating the heat load. << My favorite for a lay/non-trades person's discussion and calculation of heat loads has always been "Other Homes and Garbage" Wonderfully explained and step by step directions with weather data for many locations. I keep it near me on the shelf for this and other discussions contained in the book. >>Who was it said-- "Free markets know the price of everything, and the value of nothing." Best, Mike •obrien@hevanet.com<< If the quote is still free for the taken I'd love to know as it's author. Perhaps it's the same person who said-- "The river of consumer items is a mile wide and an inch deep" Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Inc, General Contractors Ithaca, NY. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 17 16:56:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA10220 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:56:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA19575 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:55:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28979; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:50:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:45:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA28664 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:45:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28660 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:45:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.25.64.206] (usr2a10.rut.sover.net [206.25.64.206]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA23171 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:50:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:50:55 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: outdoor toiletsolutions? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1337 Hi folks, I'm forwarding this request to the list in the hopes that someone can help. Please send any advice to him directly, as he isn't subscribed. Thanks, Nadav >Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 15:18:00 +0200 >To: spider@ebuild.com >From: Jorma Arotie >Subject: outdoor toiletsolutions? > >Hellow friends over there > >I would like to get information of safe outdoortoiletconstructions for >wet soilareas. Are there simple and cheep inventions to build such >toilets, because the need is big in countryside forinnstance in Ecuador. > >Please answers to me > >arotjor@sicom.fi > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 17 19:16:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA13024 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:16:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA24408 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:15:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02554; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:09:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:04:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA02239 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:04:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA02234 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:04:36 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:04:52 EST To: gkam@pacbell.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Noah's Ark Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1338 In a message dated 98-01-17 12:10:32 EST, you write: << Please keep your political comments to yourself. This is a greenbuilders website. Thank you, george kamburoff >> Dear Mr. Kamburoff, Please accept my apology. In no way did my post intend to offend. And in fact, the post does not reflect MY political reality or beliefs. It was merely intended to add some levity analogous to the frustrations often expressed on the list about the difficulty of getting new building technologies (especially green ones) approved by local codes and regulators. Please excuse my attempt at "analogous humor" at what I know to be a serious subject. I am posting this to the list in case others were similarly miffed. Respectfully, Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 17 19:38:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA13488 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:38:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA00220 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:37:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA03180; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:28:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA02903 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:27:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA02899 for ; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:27:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from krusty.ampsc.com (krusty.ampsc.com [207.102.161.120]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA01664; Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:36:52 -0800 Message-ID: <34C14CE6.4200@ampsc.com> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:29:26 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RCMathis1 CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Noah's Ark References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1339 RCMathis1 wrote: > > In a message dated 98-01-17 12:10:32 EST, you write: > > << Please keep your political comments to yourself. > This is a greenbuilders website. > Thank you, > > george kamburoff You shouldn't take offense at the humorous bit on Noah's Ark........receiving that email dity certainly put a smile on my lips and a warm glow in my heart.[g] Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 18 08:54:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA28562 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:54:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06567 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:53:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA16592; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:48:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:41:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA16309 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:41:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16305 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:41:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.org (uucp@localhost) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id IAA22604; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:46:45 -0500 From: Michael_Shaw@together.org (Michael Shaw) Reply-To: Michael_Shaw@together.org To: strawboss94@juno.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist:why? min. wood stove Date: 18 Jan 1998 13:48:23 GMT Message-Id: <2771709918.129566197@together.org> Organization: TogetherNet Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1340 The Centre for Intermediate Technology in UK (used to be in Covent Garden, London) have done a lot of great work on the wood/cooking issue. If you cannot find them, pse let me know and I will get a fax no. Are there water issues in Malawi that need some thought? Do you know the work of the Gaia Foundation which works out of London? Michael Michael Shaw, Living Technologies Inc., www.livingmachines.com 431 Pine Street, Burlington,Vermont Tel: 802 865 4460, Fax: 802 865 4438 Home: 802 425 2931 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 18 09:37:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA29296 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:37:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA15171 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:36:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17605; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:30:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:26:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA17355 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:26:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17351 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:26:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.org (uucp@localhost) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id JAA23828; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:31:46 -0500 From: Michael_Shaw@together.org (Michael Shaw) Reply-To: Michael_Shaw@together.org To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Cc: abest@direct.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: rooftop gardens Date: 18 Jan 1998 14:30:11 GMT Message-Id: <213839838.129728591@together.org> Organization: TogetherNet Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1341 Paul Menkowitz of NYC (Brooklyn Botanical Gardens) has done a lot of work on roof garden materials - particularly light soils/growing media. We have also designed but have never won a contract to build a Living Machine for sewage treatment on the roof (with some tanks in the basement). There was a Toronto project called the Codicile House (the unplugged house) which was extensively designed but never built. Food was to be grown and water treated on the roof. Good luck, Michael Michael Shaw, Living Technologies Inc., www.livingmachines.com 431 Pine Street, Burlington,Vermont 05401 Tel: 802 865 4460, Fax: 802 865 4438 Home: 802 425 2931 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 18 10:03:36 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29847 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:03:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA20848 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:02:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18316; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:57:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:52:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18021 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:52:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18017 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:52:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28100; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 07:56:58 -0700 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 07:56:58 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Michael Shaw Cc: rjmoore@ampsc.com, abest@direct.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: rooftop gardens In-Reply-To: <213839838.129728591@together.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1342 You said:"There was a Toronto project called the Codicile House (the unplugged house) which was extensively designed but never built." Further to the above, the Toronto Healthy House was built about 2 years ago. In fact Martin Leifheber (a classmate of mine at university) recently gave a presentation in our sustainable home to about 40 people during an evening pot-luck supper. However, the original design to which you refered has changed. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 18 10:58:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01465 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:58:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA04317 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:57:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20100; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:52:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:48:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19757 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:48:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19753 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:47:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA26410 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:53:15 -0500 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-121-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.121]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA11386 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:53:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980118105250.006a7bac@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 10:52:50 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #22 In-Reply-To: <199801151936.OAA12065@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1343 in response to: >Date: 15 Jan 1998 11:40:09 -0700 >From: "Jean Gallagher" >Subject: GBlist: FREE HEAT > >Tom & Fred, > >Now you have gotten my interest up again. I wonder if any formal (or >informal) studies have been done regarding heat transfer from sunrooms or >attics to lower portions of houses. I know thermo-controlled duct fans with >self-activated gates are available relatively cheap. My thought is, though, >that you would probably have to include this in new construction. My only >other concern would be the recirculation of moisture. > >Jean Jean -- I have made some study of the amount of heat transferred from a greenhouse, and attempted to study the amount of moisture transferred. Direct measurement of moisture transfer turns out to be very difficult -- low enthalpy changes from supply to return requiring very precise (expensive) measurement, beyond what I attempted. However, I water my attached hortilculturally oriented 10'x15' greenhouse about 5 gallons every sunny day (50 sq.ft.growing bead w/ 20" of organic growing medium -- soil mix). So this gives you an idea of the magnitude of the amount of water. This is a significant moisture pulse into any building, and moreso into my very air-tight home. The event taxes my ventilation system's ability to remove moisture, ending up with moisture on windows on cold nights after sunny days, although these windows are less than ideal (10 year old house) -- Marvin aluminum clad, double low-e-argon with poor thermal edge detailing on both glass and aluminum cladding, unless I run the humidity down to nose-drying, sinus-stuffing levels (30-35% RH), which takes a little while after the sunny day. For this type of house, one would need something like the Canadian fibertglass frame, warm-edge triple (at least here in Vermont) to be able to maintain a decent indoor humidity. I don't worry about moisture in the insulation, as I scrupulously detailed the interior air/vapor barrier. Moving air from greenhouses into basements has been done many, many times in existing homes. There is the issue of avoiding depressurization of basements where non-sealed combustion equipment exists, or where there may be radon issues. Moist basements are a red flag, as they may be mold sources, so moving this air around can be a health problem. I recommend large cross-sectional area ducts and low blade-speed axial fans with as good a motor as you can find to reduce electrical energy usage, and as or more important for most folks, to reduce noise. If the house can use the added heat while the sun is out, it often makes more sense to blow it into the living space of the house, where this heat will displace fossil or whatever else is normally used for heat. If the house is already warm when the sun is out, the basement can be a good place for this heat, if you can convince yourself that the heat is useful there. Air leakage rates (and energy efficiency) of the house itself should be checked, to see if money would be better spent on air-tightening or other measures. If heat is being blown into an existing house, the house should be analyzed as a system first, to see if and where the heat would be useful, to see if added moisture would be an asset or a problem, and if during the course of the year this balance might shift. The air system design should reflect these types of consideration, and of, of course, health and safety issues. Andy Shapiro, Energy Balance, Inc. Montpelier VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 18 11:17:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01856 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:17:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA08828 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:16:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20709; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:07:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA20422 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:07:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20418 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:06:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23656; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:11:21 -0700 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:11:20 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Twila A Ard Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: reducing deforestation: solar ovens & efficient stoves In-Reply-To: <19980117.094828.4743.2.strawboss94@juno.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1344 You said: "in Malawi for 35 years. During those years the country has become almost entirely deforested due to need for cooking, heating and lighting. Now women spend an inordinate amount of time and energy walking long distances just to chop a few scrub bush for a meager wood supply." Further to your comment above, that kind of environmental destruction is happening in many parts of the world including India, the US and Canada (specifically BC and Alberta, for other reasons). That is why we use a solar cooker for the majority of our cooking (even when it is -20dC outside, as long as it is sunny) and try to promote its use to all our visitors from around the world. When the sun is not shining, we use our highly efficient wood burning multi-purpose masonry heater/fireplace to cook our food (while providing space and water heating) in the winter. In fact if we have a fire in the evening, we can still prepare/warm our breakfast the next morning in the baking oven (depending on how cold it is outside). These solutions are here in the real world of today and waiting for all of us to act upon. Then we all know what we are talking about. _________________________________________________________ Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 18 11:59:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA02639 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:59:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA19713 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:58:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21877; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:52:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:48:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21554 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:47:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21542 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:47:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA00099; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:52:41 -0800 Message-ID: <34C2324F.6AB206B8@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:48:16 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: FREE HEAT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1345 I was looking at the potential of an attached greenhouse when doing some design work for an indoor pool building. The scenario was the reverse wanting to extract some benefit from moisture laden air. It also seemed at the time that there was some interesting potential for a closed system. The greenhouse could serve - a passive form of heat recovery/dehumidification of incoming air - air purification - air supply I think there is some interesting potential if the goal is air purification however for heat recovery and as a source for supply the concept is wasteful of energy and potentially harmful depending on the travel of moist air. I could see some potential in exhausting air to a greenspace and having a air to water heat pump for heat recovery especially if there is any requirement for cooling. Anyone remember offhand the amount of moisture produced in a standard house per day. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 18 14:55:15 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA08250 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:55:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA04392 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:54:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27035; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:48:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:43:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26708 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:42:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from harborside.com (exim@harborside.com [204.214.110.225]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26704 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:42:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from p208.rs0.harborside.com ([204.214.111.208]) [204.214.111.208] by harborside.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0xu0bE-0005X2-00; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:41:43 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Free market quote Date: Sun, 18 Jan 98 11:48:31 -0800 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Steve Hussey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1346 >"Free markets know the price of everything, and the value of nothing." The original quote is at least a hundred years old and was something along the lines of..." a fool knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing". Insert appropriate noun as desired, choose from "Senators, Government Officials, corporate officers..." Regards, Steve Hussey ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 18 15:22:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA08835 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:22:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA11605 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:21:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28207; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:15:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:11:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA27957 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:10:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27949 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:10:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13482 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:15:45 -0500 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-84-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.84]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA13631 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:15:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980118151519.006b5288@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:15:19 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #24 In-Reply-To: <199801160700.CAA15507@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1347 >Sunspace Heat Management: bion Howard wrote in response to Jean: >........................... >I have designed some sunspace "thermal management systems" where the heat >from passive solar gains was moved through a "block bed" system under the >slab and >By the way, an insulated "air-core" floor could actually _reduce_ moisture >(in a building) by sequestering it in the matrix of the concrete, which in >block is quite porous and has about a 2-week moisture vapor time-constant >according to tests done at the National Concrete Masonry Association (NCMA) Bion and Jean -- I worry about moisture in a dark warm place, that eventualy gets fertilized with dust, making a wonderful breeding ground for things we would rather didn't live in our houses. I have stopped recommending any form of thermal storage you can't get in and clean. If the greenhouse has plants in it, the problem is worse, but I am not sure problems would be limited to greenhouses with plants. I am curious if other thermal storage designers feel the same way I do about this.... Andy Shapiro, Energy Balance Inc, Montpelier VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 18 15:42:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09346 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:42:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA16554 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:41:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28918; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:35:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:31:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28611 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:30:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28607 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:30:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PKV22157; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:34:51 EST To: cllee@SWBell.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: mobile home Message-ID: <19980118.143031.7631.6.strawboss94@juno.com> References: <34C22431.7794F43A@swbell.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-4,6-7,12 From: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 15:34:51 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1348 You must remember too that $75,000 + doesn't even include land and utility hookups. That can run another substantial cash out lay and\or monthly cost. ALWAYS tell folks "Find you a little spot of land to start......" On Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:48:01 -0600 "Carol M." writes:( snip, snip) desire to get out of apartment > been investigating options > went to look at double wide "energy miser" mobile homes . No double paned windows, 28x62 for a total interior space of 1736 sq ft. walls are R 11 and roof R 30. COST of this mobile home was $75,303 Almost fell right off my chair. works out to $42.23 per square foot. that one can build one heck of a SB home for that amount > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 18 17:17:44 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA11766 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:17:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA10196 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:16:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01944; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:11:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:06:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA01485 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:05:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01471 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:05:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.101.80]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA24339 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 22:10:11 +0000 Message-ID: <34C09717.703CD69C@which.net> Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 11:33:44 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding List Subject: Re: GBlist: Demand Radiant Floor Heat X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199801161818.NAA19929@amsterdam.interport.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1349 The heat transfer from the floor must be relative to the temperature difference between the floor and the room. A problem with high thermal mass heating is the response time. If the floor is kept at a constant temperature, I suppose the heat transfer will only vary with the room temperature. Large swings in floor temperature during the time you are using the room would be uncomfortable I would think. A heating system water heater can be controlled by temperature range, from a room thermostat in the case of a steel radiator(relatively quick response) system, or perhaps for the floor in the case of high mass radiant floor(slow response) system. If its a very slow response system I suppose it would need to be linked to the weather forcast. Presumably the heating is not required during the night when the occupants are asleep, so that the heater could be turned off for a period of time somehow related to the time spent asleep. I must confess I am not convinced by high thermal mass for fueled heating systems. Solar is a different case of course. Malcolm Scott C. Dodge wrote: > It seems to me the much lower temps involved in radient floor, as > opposed to masonry heaters, would result in too much time and energy > being spent in rechargeing the mass if you were to let it give off > most of its stored heat on a regular basis before supplying it with > additional heated water. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 18 17:59:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA13634 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:59:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA21503 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:58:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03444; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:52:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:48:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA03084 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:47:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ove.arup.com (ove.arup.com [193.116.20.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03072 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 17:47:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by ove.arup.com; id WAA17185; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 22:50:13 GMT Received: from a_csun01(69.69.11.1) by ove.arup.com via smap (3.2) id xma017181; Sun, 18 Jan 98 22:49:50 GMT Received: from arup.com (a_cnws01) by arupuk (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24431; Sun, 18 Jan 98 22:51:53 GMT Received: from nwgateways-Message_Server by arup.com with Novell_GroupWise; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 22:51:29 +0000 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 22:50:12 +0000 From: Jason shepherd Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: rooftop gardens Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1350 >>> Peter Reppe 01/16/98 03:22pm >>> Dear all- I just subscribed to this list, so I hope this hasn't just been discussed here recently. Could someone please recommend me a publication containing an overview about the technical specifics in establishing a roof garden (e.g., membrane materials, thicknesses of gravel and soil layers, soil types, irrigation systems etc.)? Secondly, could somebody also please give me a rough number for the additional load (lbs/sqft) caused by a roof garden on which only grass would be grown. That would help me a lot for some first feasibility studies (which I'd like to do over the weekend). Thanks in advance, Peter " Pete You could try calling our Los Angeles office since they were heavily involved in the new GAP Building complex in California which has all its roofing as grass. Their number is: (310) 312 5040 - I think(Remember I'm in Australia. Cheers Jason Shepherd Ove Arup & Partners Sydney, Australia ! ! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 18 23:25:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA21208 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 23:25:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA11431 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 23:24:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA16840; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 23:18:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 18 Jan 1998 23:13:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA16544 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 23:12:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA16538 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 23:12:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.org (uucp@localhost) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id XAA23977; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 23:17:13 -0500 From: Michael_Shaw@together.org (Michael Shaw) Reply-To: Michael_Shaw@together.org To: jason.shepherd@arup.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: rooftop gardens Date: 19 Jan 1998 04:14:17 GMT Message-Id: <213839838.132706089@together.org> Organization: TogetherNet Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1351 I was also interested in sod roof loading recently. The Findhorn Foundation has a number of such roofs that have been in existance for quite a few years. Here is the reply to the loading question from John Talbot, who is an architect and engineer at Findhorn and Director of the Eco-village project there: We have two types, a light weight one and a regular. The Guest Lodge and Youth building are both the heavier types, which are also a lot cheaper. The loading, incl of Imposed (snow) and dead is 104 lbs/ft2 and the cost is about $1.50 /ft2. This is the one I would recommend. Our snow loading is 0.75 kN/m2 = 15.6 lbs/ft2. These figures are for load on plan, we have a 20o pitch on both of these buildings. I hope this is helpful, Michael Michael Shaw, Living Technologies Inc., www.livingmachines.com 431 Pine Street, Burlington,Vermont 05401 Tel: 802 865 4460, Fax: 802 865 4438 Home: 802 425 2931 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 08:53:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA03878 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:53:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA23433 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:52:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00159; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:46:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:41:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA29839 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:40:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29832 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:40:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA25570 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:45:47 -0500 Message-id: <1943863@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 19 Jan 98 08:51:30 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #24 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1352 --- You wrote: I am curious if other thermal storage designers feel the same way I do about this... --- end of quoted material --- I have never yet seen a moisture problem with bugs and beasties in the rockbeds I have designed under homes and greenhouses, but I am only judging by odors (lack thereof!) Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 09:42:36 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04943 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA03531 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:41:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02752; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:36:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:31:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02327 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:30:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from apcserv2.apcnet.com (root@[206.31.84.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02313 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:30:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([206.31.84.120]) by apcserv2.apcnet.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA06014 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:08:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801191508.KAA06014@apcserv2.apcnet.com> From: "Military Man" To: "Green Building" Subject: GBlist: Fiberbond Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:44:10 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1353 I am a Home Repair man, and have been watching a bit of TV and have come a cross a product called Fiberbond. I started searching the net and came across a few things about it but not what I am really looking for. Louisiana Pacific Corp. is one of the companies that I found that is producing it. The information that I am looking for is the X rating, durability, finishing, and painting. Thanks for all your help, David M. Fannon Military Man DF Home Repairs Fayetteville, NC (FT BRAGG) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 09:51:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA05089 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:51:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA05340 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:50:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03610; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:44:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:39:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02935 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:38:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02927 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:38:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10101 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:44:01 GMT (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:44:00 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Toronto Healthy House To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199801190700.CAA21121@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1354 Since the Toronto Healthy House comes up so often (as it should!) take a look at: www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/HealthyHousing/Toronto ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 10:08:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05573 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:08:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA09274 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:07:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04883; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:02:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:57:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA04395 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:56:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.170]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04379 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:56:28 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: <36005488.34c36a16@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:58:28 EST To: derick@apcnet.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberbond Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1355 I haven't used Fibrebond but have done some research on the product. It is basically a standard drywall product that is manufactured using some cellulose fiber obtained from used newsprint. It is somewhat stiffer than 'regular' dry wall but otherwise performs the same in terms of use, finishing, painting and so forth. It does cost a little more but this is primarily due to transportation costs as it is apparently only manufactured at one LP plant in Nova Scotia. Phil. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 11:07:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07582 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:07:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA24821 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:06:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08580; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:01:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:56:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08072 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:55:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from pnl.gov (relay.pnl.gov [130.20.84.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08060 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:55:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from pnlmse1.pnl.gov by pnl.gov (PMDF V5.1-10 #21283) with ESMTP id <01ISJY5N4XVK8XR970@pnl.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:59:31 PST Received: from ccmail.pnl.gov ([130.20.128.23]) by pnlmse1.pnl.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id DC60JQW7; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:59:31 -0800 Received: from ccMail by ccmail.pnl.gov (IMA Internet Exchange 2.12 Enterprise) id 003B23E9; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 07:59:30 -0800 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:04:39 -0800 From: ad_lee@ccmail.pnl.gov (Allen D Lee) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: mobile home To: cllee@SWBell.net, strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <003B23E9.4025@ccmail.pnl.gov> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-description: cc:Mail note part Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1356 The best study that I've seen shows manufactured homes cost 20-30% less than a comparable site-built home with all related costs included. Factors that keep costs lower are shorter construction time and lower carrying costs during construction, less expensive labor, and lower materials costs (the factories buy in huge quantities at large discounts). The factory construction produces some quality advantages and most lumber is kiln dried. ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: GBlist: Re: mobile home Author: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) at -SMTPLink Date: 1/18/98 3:34 PM You must remember too that $75,000 + doesn't even include land and utility hookups. That can run another substantial cash out lay and\or monthly cost. ALWAYS tell folks "Find you a little spot of land to start......" On Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:48:01 -0600 "Carol M." writes:( snip, snip) desire to get out of apartment > been investigating options > went to look at double wide "energy miser" mobile homes . No double paned windows, 28x62 for a total interior space of 1736 sq ft. walls are R 11 and roof R 30. COST of this mobile home was $75,303 Almost fell right off my chair. works out to $42.23 per square foot. that one can build one heck of a SB home for that amount > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 11:30:13 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08322 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:30:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA01556 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:29:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10288; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:23:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:18:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09824 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:17:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from CLEMSON.EDU (mail.clemson.edu [130.127.28.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09814 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:17:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from cdewitt.clemson.edu ([206.240.183.38]) by CLEMSON.EDU (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA27185 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:23:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:23:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19980119112306.334f35f4@mail.clemson.edu> X-Sender: cdewitt@mail.clemson.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Craig DeWitt Subject: GBlist: Real "Green" building Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1357 You people are all wrong about green building. :) I'll tell you what real "green" building is. First you get an architect to design a nice house. Then you solicit donations of money and materials to build this house. Then you hire a local builder, whose fee is based on the total costs of the house. [Sort of a cost plus basis, except the costs are determined by values set by the donors. The builder fee is just the "plus" part, with no incentive to be efficient in any way.] Construction begins, with labor provided by people who drink "co-cola" and chew tobacco. These people are talented. I could never remember which bottle to drink from, and which to spit tobacco juice into. Anyway, the framing goes up: 2x6's at 12 inches on center. [two storey house, big crowds, tile roof, not to mention the huge snow loads we experience here in the southeast US. Oh wait, the tile donor backed out, so we'll use regular shingles.] Then the insulation goes in. Up to now, I have bitten my tongue, lips and fingernails noticing "educational opportunities", but which are outside the scope of my involvement with this building. I felt compelled to intervene at this point though since the HVAC system is part of my research project, and I couldn't take anymore. In a meeting with the builder and insulation contractor the next day, I uncovered two partly filled "co-cola" bottles behind the insulation. Two bottles out of five stud bays examined! So there you are. "Green" building is really the resulting mess you get when chewing tobacco spittum or soda leaks into a wall cavity after partially filled bottles left the wall break from freezing or being poked with a nail. "What's that stain from?" "What's that smell?" "Where are all these bugs coming from?" Sorry, I just had to vent my frustrations. Apparently researching, planning and detailing specs for greener buildings are useless if the person doing the nail pounding doesn't care or doesn't have a clue. In this particular case, there are several other MAJOR holes in the process as well. We've still got lots of work to do. Craig DeWitt ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 11:57:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09147 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:57:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA08996 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:56:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12783; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:51:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:46:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA11956 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:45:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11936 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:45:13 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LIJ28868; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:48:23 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 09:33:22 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Noah's Ark Message-ID: <19980119.105934.3646.12.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <34C14CE6.4200@ampsc.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-37 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1358 Enjoyed Noah's Ark a great deal. There is truth in humor. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Sat, 17 Jan 1998 16:29:26 -0800 Arjay writes: >RCMathis1 wrote: >> >> In a message dated 98-01-17 12:10:32 EST, you write: >> >> << Please keep your political comments to yourself. >> This is a greenbuilders website. >> Thank you, >> >> george kamburoff > > >You shouldn't take offense at the humorous bit on Noah's >Ark........receiving that email dity certainly put a smile on my lips >and a warm glow in my heart.[g] > >Richard. > >R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis >Indoor Air Environment Specialists >Restoration and Remediation Services >Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. >Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 12:13:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09839 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:13:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA13432 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14406; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:06:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:01:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13587 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:00:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13575 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:00:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.40] (ua7.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.40]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA25960; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:06:02 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1943863@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:11:41 -0500 To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #24 Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1359 >--- You wrote: > >I have never yet seen a moisture problem with bugs and beasties in the >rockbeds >I have designed under homes and greenhouses, but I am only judging by odors >(lack thereof!) > >Marc Rosenbaum If there were any significant active micro-fungi or bacteria, there would be odors. The fungi would smell"earthy" or "musty" and bacteria would smell like "old socks" or "lockerooms" or "something died in there". I heard tales of colonization of rockbed storage by actinomycetes years ago, but have never seen a case. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 13:48:53 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12702 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:48:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA11049 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:47:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19820; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:42:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:36:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19193 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:36:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from essex.UCHSC.edu (essex.UCHSC.EDU [140.226.1.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19188 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (hooperj@localhost) by essex.UCHSC.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA25546 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:43:33 -0700 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:43:33 -0700 (MST) From: Joan Hooper To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: trombe walls Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1360 Folks, I am considering a trombe wall retrofit on my 2 story double-brick 1901 home in Denver. I am looking for information on design and materials. How to calculate collector area/vent opening size/ living area to be heated? And how to deal with air flow problems between floors? I waould like to have intake vents on ground floor and output vents on 2nd floor. But airflow return between 2nd floor (bedrooms) and ground floor is down an enclosed twisting staircase. How will this affect the calculations? Thanks for any help. joan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 14:13:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13358 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:13:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA17908 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:12:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21496; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:07:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:02:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA20951 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:02:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from radiks.net (root@sr.radiks.net [205.138.126.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20938 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:02:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ics_7ab56 (pc-7AB-086.omhq.uprr.com [167.132.89.86]) by radiks.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA13321; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:03:36 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34C3A374.19E5@radiks.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:03:16 -0600 From: Tom Berthold X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Allen D Lee CC: cllee@SWBell.net, Twila A Ard , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: mobile home References: <003B23E9.4025@ccmail.pnl.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1361 Could anyone recommend a good source (such as a periodical) that objectively reviews manufactured homes for economy, energy efficiency, earth-friendliness, etc? Any web resources for this kind of thing? Thanks in advance, Tom Allen D Lee wrote: > > The best study that I've seen shows manufactured homes cost 20-30% > less than a comparable site-built home with all related costs > included. Factors that keep costs lower are shorter construction > time and lower carrying costs during construction, less expensive > labor, and lower materials costs (the factories buy in huge > quantities at large discounts). The factory construction produces > some quality advantages and most lumber is kiln dried. > > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ > Subject: GBlist: Re: mobile home > Author: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) at -SMTPLink > Date: 1/18/98 3:34 PM > > You must remember too that $75,000 + doesn't even include land and > utility hookups. That can run another substantial cash out lay and\or > monthly cost. ALWAYS tell folks "Find you a little spot of land to > start......" > > On Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:48:01 -0600 "Carol M." writes:( > snip, snip) > desire to get out of apartment > been investigating options > > went to look at double wide "energy miser" mobile homes . No double > paned windows, 28x62 for a total interior space of 1736 sq ft. walls > are R 11 and roof R 30. COST of this mobile home was $75,303 Almost > fell right off my chair. works out to $42.23 per square foot. that one > can build one heck of a SB home for that amount > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 14:17:24 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13421 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:17:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18836 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:16:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21916; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:10:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:06:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA21345 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:06:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21329 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:06:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ppp-207-104-158-234.wnck11.pacbell.net [207.104.158.234]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id LAA27662; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:11:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C3A5CF.497A@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:13:19 -0800 From: George Kamburoff Reply-To: gkam@pacbell.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-PBWG (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sbtauto@juno.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Noah's Ark References: <34C14CE6.4200@ampsc.com> <19980119.105934.3646.12.sbtauto@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1362 I apologize for missing the humor. It sounded like another person whining about "guvmunt interference" to me. gk ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 14:54:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA14568 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:54:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA29968 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:53:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24063; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:48:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:43:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23546 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:43:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin52.mail.aol.com (mrin52.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.162]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23534 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:43:14 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin52.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA08058; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:47:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:47:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980119144755_-599632511@mrin52> To: hooperj@essex.UCHSC.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: trombe walls Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1363 Joan, In your post you said... >>I am considering a trombe wall retrofit on my 2 story double-brick 1901 home in Denver.<< I haven't seen your house, but my suggestion would be to consider less expensive and less invasive alternatives (such as tightening the envelope, increasing attic and wall insulation, upgrading your heating system, installing waste heat recovery devices, etc) before installing a trombe wall on a 1901 home. A 2-story trombe wall may be out of character. If you are interested in reducing your energy costs, enlist the help of a consultant who can model the return on your investment with one of the excellent hourly computer simulation programs available. Rob Harrison Seattle ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 15:37:17 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA15939 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:37:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA13039 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:36:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27440; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:30:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:25:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26994 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:25:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26990 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:25:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.108] (usr0a44.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.108]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA16761; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:30:38 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199801191508.KAA06014@apcserv2.apcnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:34:29 -0500 To: "Military Man" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberbond Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1364 >I am a Home Repair man, and have been watching a bit of TV and have come a >cross a product called Fiberbond. I started searching the net and came >across a few things about it but not what I am really looking for. >Louisiana Pacific Corp. is one of the companies that I found that is >producing it. > >The information that I am looking for is the X rating, durability, >finishing, and painting. > Hi Mr. Repair Man, We did a fairly detailed review of the Fiberbond product in 1993, it's available on our Web site at: http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Product_Reviews/FiberBond.html Basically, its a gypsum and perlite product without with cellulose fibers mixed into the material, rather than as a paper facing. It is much harder than standard wallboard, and requires somewhat different finishing techniques. Fiberbond has just been sold to USG Corporation (makers of sheetrock), so it will be interesting to see what they do with it. Nadav Malin Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 15:41:32 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA16034 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:41:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA14317 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:40:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27923; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:34:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:30:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA27430 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:30:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27421 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:30:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.232] (li-ppp35.hevanet.com [204.119.60.232]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26687; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:35:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199801191508.KAA06014@apcserv2.apcnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:33:04 -0800 To: "Military Man" From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberbond Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1365 Hi, Dave-- We used FiberBond in a house about three years ago, and I have seen it installed on a couple of commercial buildings since. It's available in a whole variety of different boards, including underlayment, exterior sheathing and soffits. The interior 5/8" thick wallboard is equivalent to Type X. If you call Louisiana-Pacific they can send you the product literature. Try Chicago (708)517-8833 or Nova Scotia (902)625-3070. The boards are exceptionally smooth and harder than standard drywall, so finished walls and ceilings look very flat and smooth. Recycled cellulose fiber gives the boards higher tensile strength, so they don't break as easily. In fact, one type is called VHI for Very High Impact. It's meant for high-traffic areas like school corridors where you don't want the floor waxers, carts, students' heads, etc. to damage the walls where they bump into them. Because the boards are stronger, they don't score and snap like standard drywall. You either have to run the knife across them a couple of times, or buy a little power hand saw. It's probably a good idea to give some advance warning to the hangers so they know to bid the job accordingly. The boards cost more and installation is slower on the first job, so I would say to figure that a first job could be as much as 25% more than standard drywall. The added cost is probably worth it for high-impact areas. In a house, if you are happy with the way standard drywall looks, I'd say stick with it. If you can get James hardie or Georgia-Pacific drywall in your area, the boards will have some recycled content (beyond just the paper, I mean). Best, Mike >I am a Home Repair man, and have been watching a bit of TV and have come a >cross a product called Fiberbond. I started searching the net and came >across a few things about it but not what I am really looking for. >Louisiana Pacific Corp. is one of the companies that I found that is >producing it. > >The information that I am looking for is the X rating, durability, >finishing, and painting. > >Thanks for all your help, > >David M. Fannon >Military Man >DF Home Repairs >Fayetteville, NC (FT BRAGG) >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Earth Smart Program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 15:50:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA16323 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:50:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA17257 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:49:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28668; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:44:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:40:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28294 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:39:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from cc00ms.unity.ncsu.edu (cc00ms.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28290 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:39:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from slrcenter8.mck.ncsu.edu (slrcenter8.mck.ncsu.edu [152.1.166.122]) by cc00ms.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/US19Dec96) with SMTP id PAA05196 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:45:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19980119204507.00768e40@pop-in.ncsu.edu> X-Sender: schr@pop-in.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:45:07 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Henry Rogers Subject: GBlist: Active Solar Thermal Storage Matrices Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1366 Terry, Marc, Andy, Bion and Jean, Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #22 I do have some concerns about "active thermal storage" systems that pass indoor air through a thermal storage matrix of any variety. "IF" inexpensively built, kept in a very dry state and the air coming out of the storage is filtered or isolated from indoor air, then they can be effective. "IF" everything is done right and stays right then, sure, they work great. "IF" something on the system goes south (like our earth tubes filling with water) then problems can be unfixable and the entire system has to be written off. Active solar systems aren't bullet proof. The solar industry was, and sadly to some extent still is, plagued by designers who don't take the time to build experience and understanding like Bion or Marc and rush to implement a good idea but with poor details. If a problem occurs, then it is solar technology that takes the rap, not the poor design of the architect or non-maintenace of the homeowner. Passive solar is not idiot proof, but we are more likely to see good product, from design through implementation and with good durability, than with active systems. Some examples: At the NCSU Solar House in Raleigh, they built an air-core suspended floor for the upper level from 4 feet wide, prestressed concrete floor deck panels (Spandeck) that had air cores running through. Two air intakes at the top of the two story sunspace brought excess warm air to a manifold at the north end of the planks. The warm air passed through the Spandeck under the living room back to the sunspace where the Spandeck was cantilevered about 4 feet to as a walk way. The air cores are filled with rock. This system works very well; however, we don't promote this system for two reasons. After years of testing the whole house via 250 thermal/air sensors it was determined that the sunspace by itself worked extremely well and the Spandeck system was too expensive for the additional thermal storage it provided. Second, there is no way to clean the dust out of the air-core floor. We think passive solar is hard to beat. Two other systems to note: Mike Nicklas of Innovative Design in Raleigh designed an air-core wall with standard split-face CMU tied to a black attic. This is a closed system and stores heat in the interior block wall where it is released to the adjacent rooms. No indoor air mixed with the heat transfer air. This system is not cheap but useful if a sunspace or direct gain is not an option. Second, a plan review client brought in a design that had an over-glazed sunspace and plastic drainage pipe coiled in the adjacent living space slabs with intakes and returns tied to a thermostat controlled fan. This is a cheap system but the transfer air is indoor air. This was his third system. The other two worked very well according to him. Active solar space heating systems that do not have thermal storage (dayheaters, window box heaters, thermosiphoning air panels, etc.) do work very well. They can be cost effective if simply built. But they do collect dust and bug parts. One homeowner we ran into by accident during a solar home tour said that they had to disconnect their roof integrated solar air panels because the wife was having severe allergies to dust (there were probably other sources besides the air panels since it looked like an older house). So some method of removing the glazing and cleaning out the panels is a good idea. As for thermal storage matrices, if they cool down and warm moist air is passed through, then condensation can happen. I have not seen an active thermal storage matrix that is design be cleaned. One other problem with custom active systems in general, if they fail (usually a controller) and the installer is no longer available (deceased, left town, bankrupt, in jail ;-), then it can be difficult to get them back on line if a decent schematic was not permenantly attached to the system. Well designed passive systems don't break and likely to work regardless of the knowledge of the homeowner. Go Passive! Henry Rogers N.C. Solar Center Raleigh, NC At 03:15 PM 1/18/98 -0500, Andy Shapiro wrote: >>Bion and Jean -- I worry about moisture in a dark warm place, that >eventualy gets fertilized with dust, making a wonderful breeding ground for >things we would rather didn't live in our houses. I have stopped >recommending any form of thermal storage you can't get in and clean. If >the greenhouse has plants in it, the problem is worse, but I am not sure >problems would be limited to greenhouses with plants. > >I am curious if other thermal storage designers feel the same way I do >about this.... >bion Howard wrote in response to Jean: >>Sunspace Heat Management: >>I have designed some sunspace "thermal management systems" where the heat >>from passive solar gains was moved through a "block bed" system under the >>slab and By the way, an insulated "air-core" floor could actually _reduce_ moisture >>(in a building) by sequestering it in the matrix of the concrete, which in >>block is quite porous and has about a 2-week moisture vapor time-constant >>according to tests done at the National Concrete Masonry Association (NCMA) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 16:41:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA17616 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA04111 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:40:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02726; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:35:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:30:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02185 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:30:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02181 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:30:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id QtD05289; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:32:36 EST To: RCMathis1@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Noah's Ark Message-ID: <19980119.172850.11735.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-12 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:32:36 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1367 Chris, I for one loved your Noah's Ark story. Before going out on my own I worked in an architectural firm. Sometimes, to relieve stress, we would find and fax similar stories and cartoons between offices.(the main office was 200 miles away) It helped us not take ourselves quite so seriously and gave the day a little added lift. Thanks for the chuckle. I definitely printed this one to share. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Inc. Boca Raton,FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 16:41:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA17615 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA04110 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:40:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02729; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:35:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:30:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02230 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:30:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay1.smtp.psi.net (relay1.smtp.psi.net [38.8.14.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02222 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:30:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-rockville.dynamac.com by relay1.smtp.psi.net (8.8.5/SMI-5.4-PSI) id QAA22298; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccMail by smtp-rockville.dynamac.com (ccMail Link to SMTP R6.00.02) id AA885245982; Mon, 19 Jan 98 16:39:45 -0500 Message-Id: <9801198852.AA885245982@smtp-rockville.dynamac.com> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.00.02 Date: Mon, 19 Jan 98 16:24:32 -0500 From: "Kenneth Wright" To: Subject: GBlist: Economics vs. Environment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1368 I may be a bit late in chiming in here (it seems that most of the commentaries have been made), but I figured I'd put in my two cents since I've enjoyed the discussion so much Free market economies are the best way of delivering goods & services that we've developed to date because they do tend to reward those individuals who work hardest and are quickest/most adaptable/smartest/ luckiest. That's not to say that people won't starve, they will, but I see it as a form of natural selection (with the caveat that there are individuals trapped in poverty or by circumstance who would have made it in other circumstances). Free markets aren't kind, neither is nature. I don't think that economics is a science (not a hard one, anyway). There are too many variables that we can't accurately predict in human behavior. To qoute from Men In Black [an excellent product of Hollywood, demonstrating the desire of the average American to avoid thought at all costs ;)...] "Individuals are smart; People are dumb". The free market theories include in the list of assumptions that individuals will have all relevant information. We don't. For example, there was a piece in the newspaper yesterday citing statistics that the rate paid on bonds in Philadelphia is significantly lower than anywhere else in the country. I'm glad that I read it before putting my money down, but if I hadn't I never would have had the time to do the necessary research to figure out that I'd be better off with a bond in Delaware or NYC, I simply wouldn't have looked that far away from home. You can try tinkering with the laws of supply and demand if you want, best of luck. I'd like to wait until we have an accurate psychiatry (or at least mob psychology) before trying to change anything. I do think, however, that environmental costs should be included in the consumer's price for a product. This would have to be implemented by the government over the course of the next ten or twenty years. Establishing fair prices for pollution may be difficult, but as a first approximation I'd say they should be linked to the costs of disposal/remediation for the pollution produced. The laundry soap example has as a basic concept the idea that the industry is overstating the amount of soap needed. Something like paper requires the use of various chemicals in order to form and whiten the product. By instituting charges on the use of these chemicals, several effects would be acheived: some smart individual/corporation will develop a way to make paper of the same quality without using those chemicals; people will use less paper b/c it costs more; fewer trees will be chopped for paper production because it's cheaper to recycle than to start fresh (assuming you can get the recycled product adequately separated). I agree that people need to be better connected to the planet that supports them. I don't think that most people have any idea how the milk that they drink for breakfast gets to the table. However, I disagree with the notion that the city is a terrible concept. Living in a city greatly simplifies the provision of food and disposal of wastes generated by the people living there. It also provides the opportunity to create a community. It's true that the people living in a city don't grow the bulk of their own food, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. It gives them time to do other things such as educate themselves, develop opinions about current events, develop more efficient ways to do things, and argue with each other over the Internet ;). One of the things that I loved most about living in the city was being able to walk or take transit wherever I needed to go. Now I live in the suburbs and must drive to the grocery store. I detest getting, lemminglike, into my little box every morning to go to work, because there's significant traffic between my home and my office. If public transit was available/on time, I'd take it. Unfortunately, Americans are addicted to their cars and there's not, currently, enough investment in the infrastructure to make it work. As far as the concept of increasing lot size, it may indeed provide people more connection to the environment, but it may not. If the lots are landscaped instead of being left as they are found, the individual may gain a connection to his/her immediate surroundings; however, they will not gain a connection to how that environment was originally. In addition, by creating larger lots, suburbia will expand and eventually we will run out of space. It takes a significant amount of land to produce enough food to feed everyone, at the rate we're increasing our population we will eventually run out of space to live and grow food, much less work. You can't argue with Dr. Malthus. The environment will only support a certain, maximum number of individuals. If we continue growing as a population, eventually we will get trimmed. Technology has largely alleviated the problem so far, however, there are limits to how far technology can reach. Even if there weren't such a limit, I still wouldn't want to continue in our current cycle of relying on technology to move us from one sinking boat to another with different holes in the hull. Eventually, we need to grow up as a species and make some decisions about how we, collectively and individually, wish to relate to the world around us and the entities around us (whether they be animal, plant, mineral, or human). If we decide to do so in a manner that cannot be sustained for one hundred years or more, we'll pay the piper for it. One of the purposes that I see this list providing is a forum for the discussion and transmission of ideas and techniques that work to reduce the impact people have on their surrounding environment. Educating the general population is going to take a long time, there's no other way to do it properly (in today's American society, we could start screaming about it, and we might even be heard for all of a week before somebody else starts screaming about something else and the focus of the media changes). There are no easy solutions, but we have to work with what we've got. Ken Wright kwright@dynamac.com P.S.: Please don't call me an idiot. Explain why I'm wrong. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 17:09:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA18335 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:09:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA12696 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:07:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA04584; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:02:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:58:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04113 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:58:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu (0@eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04101 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:58:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin126.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.136]) by eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu with SMTP (8.8.6/8.7.1) id OAA17774; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:03:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C3CD95.4FD2@uidaho.edu> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 14:03:01 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nadav Malin CC: Military Man , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberbond References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1369 Although higher performance is a virtue, I've also heard that Fiberbond is significantly heavier than standard sheetrock - makes the hangers grumpy. Kurt Rathmann Moscow, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 17:21:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA18675 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA16045 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:19:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05343; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:14:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:10:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04901 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:10:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04897 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:09:58 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <9081ef91.34c3cc33@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:57:04 EST To: ashapiro@together.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #24 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1370 Rock bed storage: I'll side with Andy on the question of rock bed storage. I did four or five of them in the late seventies and early eighties. I now consider myself quite lucky that I never heard of any problems considering how ignorant of moisture and health issues I was at the time. Ten or twelve years ago, I was asked to try to solve a severe moisture condensation problem in a sunroom in a nearby development. The original builder was enamored of the old concept of thermal envelope homes that had an air loop from the sunroom up through an insulated attic and down through a rock storage bin in the crawl space. Most of you probably remember the time when that was a popular solar solution. It seemed logical. This guy built a whole bunch of houses in the development using that basic principal. At the time, the woman that called me was part of a class action suit by several homeowners because they were all failing. The builder apparently knew and cared even less about moisture control, air quality, etc. than I did in the late seventies. Anyway, it was obvious that moisture was coming from the crawl space in a big way. It probably didn't have any floor, moisture retarder or damp proofing. Just a big pile of rocks dumped in the dirt floored crawl space with a floor built over it. Maybe some foam thrown around haphazardly to provide a good nesting environment for termites. The sunroom glass was condensing so much moisture on the inside that it was constantly dripping at an amazing rate. There were assorted funky mold colonies in the corners and on the walls. There was a very strong distinct essence of old sneaker permeating the crawl space. I didn't know Joe Lstiburek and Terry Brennan at the time, and didn't have a clue what I could recommend to the woman to help with her problem. I knew I didn't want any part of trying to put a patch on it and then owning the problem myself. Having been called to get the rain inside the sunroom to stop, I felt bad having to tell this woman that the only suggestion I had to was to tear her house down and start over. I'd trust a designer like Andy, Marc, Joe or Terry who really know what they are doing with these things to come up with a workable solution and might use such a solution if I knew I could be on site with skilled crafts people doing an immaculate job of implementing that solution. Even then I'd wonder about the issue Andy's raises of access for cleaning. In the typical reality of folks that don't have a clue designing these things that are then installed by folks who couldn't care less or don't have the appropriate skills, I'd agree with Andy and go for a thermal storage system that you can get at and maintain real easily. Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 17:33:15 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA18946 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:33:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA19351 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:32:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06583; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:26:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:22:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05917 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:21:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.170]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05912 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:21:53 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:15:09 EST To: derick@apcnet.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Fwd: Re: GBlist: Fiberbond Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_885248109_boundary" Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1371 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_885248109_boundary Content-ID: <0_885248109@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII David, We used a product similar to fiberbond that was being manufactured by a European manufacturer in Rhode Island in 1989 and 1990. Unfortunately the factory got up and running about six months before the Rhode Island economy crashed into what the then Governor described as a depression and was soon closed. The product had all the installation drawbacks described by others. It was being marketed heavily so a bunch of local builders tried it. Sheetrockers around here hated it because it was so heavy, hard to cut and slow to work with. However it was great for very small additions on which we did the wall surfaces ourselves. (you ever see the ugly results when a typical carpenter pretends he knows how to plaster?) After an initial coat of a caulk based joint sealant, it taped like regular sheetrock but had a surface as hard as plaster and would hold nails and hooks for pictures almost like plywood. Definitely seemed like a specialty niche product though. Fred Unger --part0_885248109_boundary Content-ID: <0_885248109@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: F Unger Return-path: To: derick@apcnet.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberbond Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 17:13:57 EST Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit David, We used a product similar to fiberbond that was being manufactured by a European manufacturer in Rhode Island in 1989 and 1990. Unfortunately the factory got up and running about six months before the Rhode Island economy crashed into what the then Governor described as a depression and was soon closed. The product had all the installation drawbacks described by others. It was being marketed heavily so a bunch of local builders tried it. Sheetrockers around here hated it because it was so heavy, hard to cut and slow to work with. However it was great for very small additions on which we did the wall surfaces ourselves. (you ever see the ugly results when a typical carpenter pretends he knows how to plaster?) After an initial coat of a caulk based joint sealant, it taped like regular sheetrock but had a surface as hard as plaster and would hold nails and hooks for pictures almost like plywood. Definitely seemed like a specialty niche product though. Fred Unger --part0_885248109_boundary-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 20:26:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA23919 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:26:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA06940 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:25:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA13124; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:19:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:15:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12773 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:14:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12769 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:14:52 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id UwC28868; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:14:08 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:41:46 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Dome houses Message-ID: <19980119.192607.3750.1.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-11 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1372 French designed wooden dome homes from scratch on your land. Orb design is virtually earthquake and hurricane proof. Rotates to follow the Sun. Prices start at $75,000. www.iway.fr/domespace_eng.htm Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 20:49:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA24140 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:49:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA15577 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:48:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA14267; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:43:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:39:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA13947 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:38:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA13943 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:38:52 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <33274604.34c3ff91@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:36:14 EST To: crkoehn@mailbag.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Air Spaces and Claddings- question Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1373 Chris, You asked: can anyone offer experiential advice on how to design a drainage plane over structural insulated panels and under traditional stucco or EIFS? I'm not worried about moisture migration, but I am concerned about the inevitable leak around a window or door. Pick Up Joe Lstibureck's book "Builder's Guide" To order call 508-589-5100 Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 21:27:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA24649 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:27:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA00248 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:26:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15969; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:16:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15628 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:16:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.170]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15622 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:16:40 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <2d1e4217.34c409a8@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 21:19:17 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Report from Ice Town Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1374 Check out "Hemisphere" magazine Volume 8, Number 1, Fall 1997 305-348-2894, E-Mail: gamarrae@servax.fiu.edu http://www.fiu.edu/~lacc/hemisphere/hemisphere.html "A Call For Action" is a multi faceted integrated response to natural disasters with various approaches to sustainable development, targetted disaster releif, insurance, outside aid, community planning, etc. Written in the perspective of Latin American natural disasters, but the underlying logic can be applied to preparing for our next big ice storms in the north country as well. Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 19 23:34:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA26386 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:34:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA08115 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:32:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21620; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:27:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:21:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21325 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:21:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA21320 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:21:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.26] (blf26.acadia.net [205.217.217.26]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA18626 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:26:39 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:24:40 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: econ 101 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1375 Dear Folks, While we dealt with the aftermath of the ice storm here in Maine, email has been a low priority, but I've followed the discussions sporadically. I'm kind of interested in the thread about markets. May I add some thoughts? For those who see a dichotomy between markets and government: my neighbor says, "We don't need government." I say, "Okay, stick 'em up." You can't have a market economy without government, because without government you have no property rights, enforceable contracts, stable currency, dispute mediation, etc. Why should I do business with you if I can just whack you over the head and take your stuff? It is assumed (by academic economists and others) that markets allocate resources efficiently, using price to balance supply and demand. Actually, markets are designed to produce fluctuating prices - they are inherently unstable. Here's why: markets try to couple two negative (goal-seeking) feedback loops, one linking price and supply, and one linking price and demand. These rely on information. The trouble is, information always takes time. (Shannon at Bell Labs proved this in the 50's). So you have, inherently, two negative feedback loops coupled with a delay. Inevitable response: fluctuations around a goal. It's inherent in the structure - not a "side effect". Commodity price cycles are the classic "real-world" example. The detergent charette is a great thought-provoker. I think it was Fred Unger who posted a thoughtful response claiming that as long as there aren't monopolies, someone smart will exploit the wastefulness of current practice and trump the competition. Not knowing much about the detergent business, I'd like to look at another real-world example more familiar to most of us: energy use. Academic economists (and others) say that energy is being used "rationally" in the economy because if there were huge savings waiting to be exploited, smart people would exploit them and save oodles of money. Since people don't do that, then there aren't any savings there. Q.E.D. (It's this kind of flabby thinking which gets me so pissed off at economists). As we know, Amory Lovins and others have demonstrated that huge monetary rewards for saving energy go unrecognized all the time. There are almost literally $1000 bills lying around on the factory floor. Management often miss easy opportunities for increased profit - like energy waste reduction - and seek to increase profits in a much more difficult way - like downsizing and working the remaining employees harder. The theory of markets assumes that the players have clost to "perfect" information, and with this information, they can be relied upon to behave "rationally". Oh please. For all the evidence that this is true, there's twice as much evidence that it's false. Meanwhile, the economists wait for the real world to conform to their theories. So the theory says markets allocate efficiently, government stifles the workings of the market, and people behave rationally when it comes to finance. Pardon the pun, but I don't buy it. I have a Masters Degree in Resource Economics. To me, all this means is that I spent two years in an asylum run by the inmates. You wouldn't believe the amount of pressure that is exerted to force students to accept some basic doctrines, without which the whole structure of economics comes tumbling down. I was once told by the department chairman that economics was like a religion, and if you wanted to make it to the "college of cardinals", you had to accept the idea of "papal infallibility". (Papal "bull" is more like it.) Another gem in the department was the tenured professor who was very exited because he learned that chickens will eat their own dried feces. He proposed, in all seriousness, that the chickens be fed nothing but their own dried feces, which would "lower input costs". When I pointed out that this violated the Second Law of Thermodynamics, he snorted, "That's just a theory!" Another wunderkind in the department told us that energy could not possibly be important to the economy because the "entire energy sector" wasn't more than 3% of Gross National Product. Gee, I guess yeast can't be important to bread because it's less than even 1% of the entire loaf. And you might as well skip vitamins, because in total they only make up a miniscule proportion of your body mass. The scary thing is that these guys have more influence on policy than you and I. Markets are a tool - a really great tool for some applications - but only a tool. Arguing about the superiority of government or markets is like arguing about which is better, the hammer or the saw. You need both to build a house, and both are useless or dangerous in the hands of nitwits. As long as markets are seen as a subset of culture, we have the chance to use them wisely and perhaps improve their design. But when culture is seen as an artifact of The Market - as is now happening - then I fear all is lost. Sorry for the rant. - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 03:21:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA28302 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 03:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA17044 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 03:20:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA27483; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 03:14:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 03:10:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA27174 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 03:09:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA27168 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 03:09:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from krusty.ampsc.com (venus.ampsc.com [207.102.161.180]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA17360; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:17:56 -0800 Message-ID: <34C45C18.95F@ampsc.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 00:11:05 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: econ 101 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1376 David M. Foley wrote: > > Dear Folks, > > While we dealt with the aftermath of the ice storm here in Maine, email has > been a low priority, but I've followed the discussions sporadically. I'm > kind of interested in the thread about markets. May I add some thoughts? ..............> > As long as markets are seen as a subset of culture, we have the chance to > use them wisely and perhaps improve their design. But when culture is seen > as an artifact of The Market - as is now happening - then I fear all is > lost. > > Sorry for the rant. > > - David Foley I, too, am a graduate of economics 101, and you are right on....... nah, that's not enough close to a rant[bg]......well thought out and written from the heart and mind's memory of experience, no doubt. Best regards, Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 07:27:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA29900 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:27:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA09991 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:26:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA02232; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:21:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:16:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA01975 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:16:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01970 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:15:58 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 07:21:01 EST To: kwright@smtp-rockville.dynamac.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics vs. Environment Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1377 In a message dated 98-01-19 16:37:50 EST, you write: << You can't argue with Dr. Malthus. The environment will only support a certain, maximum number of individuals. If we continue growing as a population, eventually we will get trimmed. Technology has largely alleviated the problem so far, however, there are limits to how far technology can reach. Even if there weren't such a limit, I still wouldn't want to continue in our current cycle of relying on technology to move us from one sinking boat to another with different holes in the hull. Eventually, we need to grow up as a species and make some decisions about how we, collectively and individually, wish to relate to the world around us and the entities around us (whether they be animal, plant, mineral, or human). If we decide to do so in a manner that cannot be sustained for one hundred years or more, we'll pay the piper for it. One of the purposes that I see this list providing is a forum for the discussion and transmission of ideas and techniques that work to reduce the impact people have on their surrounding environment. Educating the general population is going to take a long time, there's no other way to do it properly (in today's American society, we could start screaming about it, and we might even be heard for all of a week before somebody else starts screaming about something else and the focus of the media changes). There are no easy solutions, but we have to work with what we've got. >> It is an interesting discussion Ken (and everyone) and since you raised Malthus, I think a couple more points are worthwhile. According to UN and WorldWatch studies, we currently have 6 billion people on the planet. Even conservative estimates are that we will double population within 30-35 years. The most liberal projections of earth's carrying capacity are 10 billion. On the other hand, the CEO of Monsanto stated we passed the limit to feed, clothe, and house everyone in the late '80's (at around 5 billion). We've used more energy in the past 32 years than the previous 10,000 years put together. Even if 30% of the work force shifts to working at home, even if technical advances save energy, we're still looking at some major impacts over the next 20-30 years, at least that's what I see. I think it's interesting that the title of this discussion started out as Economy vs. Environment which I suggest is old hat. We are quickly learning there is no choice but to work with the environment to even have an economy. The problem may well be, we don't have enough time, enough awareness or enough infrastructure to make changes but that doesn't mean we give up but may mean it needs to get a little louder. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 08:34:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA00581 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:34:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA01423 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:33:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03783; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:28:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:23:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA03489 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:23:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03485 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:23:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ua2.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.35]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA25983; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:28:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34C4A814.9B0@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:35:16 -0500 From: Terry Brennan Organization: Camroden Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E-NOV-NOV (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: F Unger CC: ashapiro@together.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #24 References: <9081ef91.34c3cc33@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1378 F Unger wrote: > > Rock bed storage: > > I'll side with Andy on the question of rock bed storage. I did four or five > of them in the late seventies and early eighties. I now consider myself quite > lucky that I never heard of any problems considering how ignorant of moisture > and health issues I was at the time... > Fred Unger I'm with you and Andy, Fred. Because a rock bed storage can be built so that it doesn't have problems, doesn't mean it is wise to do so. During the seventies, I found that in most NE climates, it was a poor return on investment to put a large enough solar aperture on a building so that active storage was required. In fact, unless I could do it cheaply, get dual-duty out of it and spread it out so that it got direct sun, passive storage was hard to justify economically or comfort wise. I could get the same or better performance by tight construction, heavy insulation, planned ventilation and a modest amount of high performance glazing with a slate or tile on a thin concrete floor. I wrote an in house program based on Dan Lewis' Tbuild logic to do the analysis, but spiffed up the thermal analysis a lot compared to Tbuild. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 08:38:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA00621 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:38:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA02537 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:37:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04209; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:32:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:27:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA03704 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:27:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03696 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:27:29 -0500 (EST) From: Bnartist Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:32:42 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Air Spaces and Claddings Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1379 Greg Flynn Architect STO has Rainscreen a drainable system that uses something like a plastic rib lath to form a drainage layer over building paper but under the exterior insulation. Others have followed with variations like insulation ribbed on the back to form drainage channels such as Dryvit's Residential MD (moisture drainage) System. Dryvit has a spacer system also. Mechanical fixing is typical to avoid problems with adhesive blocking and a drainage strip with weep holes is used at the base of the wall. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 08:40:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA00641 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:40:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA02934 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:39:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04346; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:33:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:29:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA03854 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:29:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03850 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:29:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA24091 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:34:21 -0500 Message-id: <1955776@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 20 Jan 98 08:40:05 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Active Solar Thermal Storage Matrices To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1380 --- You wrote: Go Passive! --- end of quoted material --- It's not possible to get close to a zero energy home in the north country without having some mass that is independently charged (ie, not through south glass) and driven up to a temperature considerably higher than space temperature. Without a reliable daily solar pulse, such as is experienced in much of the southwest, thermal mass cools off in a day or two, leaving you to rely on backup heat when you get a week of clouds. You only have three things to work with - heat loss rate, amount of solar gain, and amount of storage. Amount of storage can be increased either by adding mass or by cycling the mass through larger temperature swings. In passive homes, the mass is usually coupled in some way to the glass, so it is not well-insulated from heat loss over time (such as mass walls, direct gain, or sunspaces with mass separating the sunspace from the living space.) As you add glass in a passive home, you must add mass that is well-coupled to the solar gain, or you will get overheating. Diminishing returns set in quickly, as it becomes difficult to add glass with enough well-coupled mass. Experience in the north country with homes that are close to 100% solar heated shows that to achieve this in a typically sized home (say about 2000 ft2) one needs about 700 ft2 of solar collection aperture. Witness the work of Norman Saunders and Bob Multer. The house I desinged in 1993 (in Fine Homebuilding, issue #104) is in an 8000+ DD climate. It has one of the best envelopes I know of - R-40+ walls, R-60 roof, windows ranging from R-6 to R-9, ELA of 4.8 in2. My very careful modeling confirmed Saunders' designs in that it looked as though 100% solar required 700+ ft2 of solar aperture. We didn't go that far, put 360 ft2 of active collector on the roof and 1200 gallons of water storage in the basement. Three years (2 of which have had below average solar gains) show an average of about 1750 kWh/year for all heating and hot water - this is metered data, directly into the back-up heating element (5 kW). This is equal to about 40-50 gallons of oil annually. And this is with internal gains of about 300 kWh per month from all other users (too high!) I may be wrong, but I haven't seen any passive homes in northern climates that use as little energy as the best active homes. So educate me! Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 09:40:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01609 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:40:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA21648 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06839; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:33:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:28:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06399 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:28:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06392 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:28:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21886; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:33:08 GMT (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:33:08 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: econ101 To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: dmfoley@acadia.net X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199801200700.CAA25470@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1381 > > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:24:40 -0400 > From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) > Subject: GBlist: econ 101 > For those who see a dichotomy between markets and government: my neighbor > says, "We don't need government." I say, "Okay, stick 'em up." You can't Hurray! This is what I see in post-revolutionary third/second world countries -- market economics gone wild with the rules set by a few king pins. With that attitude we might let you emigrate to Canada (you know, the socialist country to your north where people have no freedom). > It is assumed (by academic economists and others) that markets allocate > resources efficiently, using price to balance supply and demand. Actually, > markets are designed to produce fluctuating prices - they are inherently > unstable. Here's why: markets try to couple two negative (goal-seeking) This is well put. I read a good article about this is the Economist several years ago. It is clearly accepted, but the premise that markets therefore do not allocate resources efficiently does not follow logically. The fact that flows is that markets are not perfect allocators. > Not knowing much about the detergent business, I'd like to look at another > real-world example more familiar to most of us: energy use. Academic > economists (and others) say that energy is being used "rationally" in the > economy because if there were huge savings waiting to be exploited, smart > people would exploit them and save oodles of money. Since people don't do > that, then there aren't any savings there. Q.E.D. (It's this kind of > flabby thinking which gets me so pissed off at economists). > downsizing and working the remaining employees harder. The theory of > markets assumes that the players have clost to "perfect" information, and > with this information, they can be relied upon to behave "rationally". Oh > please. For all the evidence that this is true, there's twice as much Of course people do not have perfect information. This is why there are few or no perfect markets. But again, this does not mean market dont work well, it means the are less than perfect. > So the theory says markets allocate efficiently, government stifles the > workings of the market, and people behave rationally when it comes to > finance. Pardon the pun, but I don't buy it. All of those comments make sense. But they are not digital / balck and white. As each of those points gets fuzzier, the systme breaks down. There are many countries where lack of information or other important factors (like communication, transportation, capital, etc) are missing and so markets get a bit screwy -- you pay 3 times the price for a product in one place than in another. Same with govt. Too much or the wrong kind of govt, and things begin to go off track. People behave rationally -- of course they do, within the limits of information and value systems. Many pries and financial decisions are quite tight around North America, with price variations in the 5 to 25% range. This is not perfect, but it is very, very good. > Markets are a tool - a really great tool for some applications - but only a > tool. Arguing about the superiority of government or markets is like > arguing about which is better, the hammer or the saw. You need both to > build a house, and both are useless or dangerous in the hands of nitwits. I agree completely. To me the real debate is about where and in what measure each should be employed. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 10:15:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02347 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:15:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA04411 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:14:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08549; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:08:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:04:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08121 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:03:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08117 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:03:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA29127 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 10:09:02 -0500 Message-id: <1956981@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 20 Jan 98 10:14:41 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Thermostats To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1382 Any suggestions for a simple, non-programmable, non-mercury thermostat, that has easy to read setpoint numbers, and a built-in thermometer? I'm seeking to replace the ubiquitous (omnipresent) Honeywell T87, which does a fine job but has mercury switch inside. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 11:24:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03407 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:24:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA29459 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:23:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14336; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:17:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:12:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13832 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 11:12:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801201612.LAA13832@solstice.crest.org> Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:26:17 -0800 From: Arjay To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics vs. Environment Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1383 Kenneth Wright wrote: > > I may be a bit late in chiming in here (it seems that most of the > commentaries have been made), but I figured I'd put in my two cents > since I've enjoyed the discussion so much I am glad you have made that decision, sensible remedial solutions to chronic problematic practices are never too late...... Your closing comments seemed, at least to me, directed my way, and so I bite[g]...categorically > Free market economies are the best way of delivering goods & services > that we've developed to date because they do tend to reward those > individuals who work hardest and are quickest/most adaptable/smartest/ > luckiest. That's not to say that people won't starve, they will, but I > see it as a form of natural selection (with the caveat that there are > individuals trapped in poverty or by circumstance who would have made > it in other circumstances). Free markets aren't kind, neither is > nature. Considering that enough of what you have to say about Free Market Economies[FME] is correct and quite representative of real experiences, attention should be directed to the controls placed by the society in FMEs, ie. the standards, rules, regulations, authorized practices, etc. Without direction, from within the society, to preserve and protect society, far too soon will come the time when there is no longer society governing the conduct of the membership. IE. if densification levels are inadequately applied, contributing to any of the ailments to the health and safety of society, and the consensus of the membership is; the levels of density are too high, then society, the authority of the society must amend the standards, rules, regulations, authorized practices, etc., to reduce the level of density and land use density occupation levels are determined at the level of representative consensus,ie. government, most applicable in land use issues, ie. zoning bylaws. > I don't think that economics is a science (not a hard one, anyway). > There are too many variables that we can't accurately predict in human > behavior. To qoute from Men In Black [an excellent product of > Hollywood, demonstrating the desire of the average American to avoid > thought at all costs ;)...] "Individuals are smart; People are dumb". > The free market theories include in the list of assumptions that > individuals will have all relevant information. We don't. I agree, quite strongly, with your view on economic relevant information, on one point, 1. most individuals do not have access to the relevant information, fed regularily to our elected, appointed, etc. representation, and are unfairly imposed upon to decide quite compromisingly, on problem solving, more commonly, already included in the responsibility of service on behalf of society, ie. public service, however, common sense held by the individual normally is sufficiently correct not to compromise themselves or other society membership. and more strongly disagree on second, 2. free market theories exists and profits on the assumption, proven constantly to be true, that because of the state of ignorance/naievity?/insufficient relevant information, surrounding the individuals and/or people, the FME can exploit, at will, the resources of society, and face it, the FME does include government. Start an argument and without sufficient relevant information, then confusion reigns and defeats sensible remedial solutions to chronic problematic practices...... > For example, there was a piece in the newspaper yesterday citing > statistics that the rate paid on bonds in Philadelphia is significantly > lower than anywhere else in the country. I'm glad that I read it > before putting my money down, but if I hadn't I never would have had > the time to do the necessary research to figure out that I'd be better > off with a bond in Delaware or NYC, I simply wouldn't have looked that > far away from home. You can try tinkering with the laws of supply and > demand if you want, best of luck. I'd like to wait until we have an > accurate psychiatry (or at least mob psychology) before trying to > change anything. A very good example of how relevant information can help one benefit, remember economics depends critically on current accurate information, and lack of same only disadvantages those without. > I do think, however, that environmental costs should be included in the > consumer's price for a product. This would have to be implemented by > the government over the course of the next ten or twenty years. > Establishing fair prices for pollution may be difficult, but as a first > approximation I'd say they should be linked to the costs of > disposal/remediation for the pollution produced. The laundry soap > example has as a basic concept the idea that the industry is > overstating the amount of soap needed. Something like paper requires > the use of various chemicals in order to form and whiten the product. > By instituting charges on the use of these chemicals, several effects > would be acheived: some smart individual/corporation will develop a way > to make paper of the same quality without using those chemicals; people > will use less paper b/c it costs more; fewer trees will be chopped for > paper production because it's cheaper to recycle than to start fresh > (assuming you can get the recycled product adequately separated). Mr. Wright, you err, again defering to commercial enterprise, and other FME enthusiasts profit driven health and safety lacking objectives. In Canada, as in Australia and I believe true also, in New Zealand, a Goods and Services Tax was enacted to replace a slew of other taxes, normally applied at the lowest level of value improvement, by being added on to the consumer's price for a product. This implementation of GST did take place over a number of years, and continues today, however...........the provider of the goods and/or services only found a legislated opportunity to give themselves a 7%, in Canada's case, raise, not adjusting their price, which beforehand, included the taxes, and now would increase the consumer's cost by 7%. The adage, make the culprit who made the mess, pay for the clean up still rings true today, however.......the caretakers of society have become corrupted, as you obviously have, and believe that the consumer should be passed the final buck. Another good and current example of consumerism being fed insufficient information is the ongoing argument over how education and training should be paid for, and in Canada, the concensus of government indicates an increase in taxes to the individual. Where do I find disagreement with this pass the buck preference? Simple. Who benefits and demands the education and training from the employed and/or entrenpeneuring members of society? Let's see the minium requirement qualifications, today, seems to be a university degree or a technical institute diploma or multiple certificates. The requirements were determined by our representative ministry, department, etc. authorities in education, training and skills responsible organizations. Who did they survey? the commercial businesses; not the employed, nor unemployed. There was a time that tax funded school systems curriculum cover only grades 1-6, considered the minimum education required, for everyone; then as commerce grew and improved, commerce required a larger workforce with education in grades 7 through 12, and the public school system expanded public education to include those grades and the cost of education and training became paid by tax funding. The pattern emerging? commerce requires an adequate workforce with a minimum level of training, the public school system obliges with tax paid funding. What are the sensible remedial solutions to chronic problematic practices of insufficient funding for an adequate workforce to provide commerce???????? Well heck, then reduce the taxes on the indivudal, by whatever the education. training and skills contribution amounts to and raise a greater amount from taxing the GP of the commercial businesses community. Heck, they wouldn't even notice it! compare the GP of commerce to the existing taxable base for raising funds in education, training and skills......go on, someone has the access to the data! sort it out. > I agree that people need to be better connected to the planet that > supports them. I don't think that most people have any idea how the > milk that they drink for breakfast gets to the table. However, I > disagree with the notion that the city is a terrible concept. Living > in a city greatly simplifies the provision of food and disposal of > wastes generated by the people living there. It also provides the > opportunity to create a community. It's true that the people living in > a city don't grow the bulk of their own food, but I don't think that's > necessarily a bad thing. It gives them time to do other things such as > educate themselves, develop opinions about current events, develop more > efficient ways to do things, and argue with each other over the > Internet ;). Cities are not a terrible concept, and I am not one who ever says it is, but it has, in far too many ways, become a perpetual self-enduring one's own worse enemy. Diffusing the pressures on city concepts density trends, I suggest, is essential to restoring the city concept to a healthy and safe practice of occupation and land use. > One of the things that I loved most about living in the city was being > able to walk or take transit wherever I needed to go. Now I live in > the suburbs and must drive to the grocery store. I detest getting, > lemminglike, into my little box every morning to go to work, because > there's significant traffic between my home and my office. If public > transit was available/on time, I'd take it. Unfortunately, Americans > are addicted to their cars and there's not, currently, enough > investment in the infrastructure to make it work. Land use zoning bylaws decisions, in the past, are responsible for the dilemnas of which you speak, and only by amending those land use zoning bylaw practices to eliminate the need to expend on mechanical transportation, will we ever be able to reduce the costs of maintaing this ineffective and unaffordable lifestyle. Maybe...the practice of home delivery will return with the expansion of telecommunications. > As far as the concept of increasing lot size, it may indeed provide > people more connection to the environment, but it may not. If the lots > are landscaped instead of being left as they are found, the individual > may gain a connection to his/her immediate surroundings; however, they > will not gain a connection to how that environment was originally. In > addition, by creating larger lots, suburbia will expand and eventually > we will run out of space. It takes a significant amount of land to > produce enough food to feed everyone, at the rate we're increasing our > population we will eventually run out of space to live and grow food, > much less work. I think your thinking is flawed, does anyone know of any land, in whatever jurisdiction they are, that is not owned and subject to the pressures of land use? Suburbia may be re-defined, in some thinking, but acreages in a city are not unexistant, only uncommon, city boundaries are quite tangible, ie. Toronto has really now just amended itself, to effectively become the sum of 6 cities or whatever? The big problem in land use and tenure, as we know it today, too few individuals own too little of the land resource. > You can't argue with Dr. Malthus. The environment will only support a > certain, maximum number of individuals. If we continue growing as a > population, eventually we will get trimmed. Technology has largely > alleviated the problem so far, however, there are limits to how far > technology can reach. Even if there weren't such a limit, I still > wouldn't want to continue in our current cycle of relying on technology > to move us from one sinking boat to another with different holes in the > hull. Eventually, we need to grow up as a species and make some > decisions about how we, collectively and individually, wish to relate > to the world around us and the entities around us (whether they be > animal, plant, mineral, or human). If we decide to do so in a manner > that cannot be sustained for one hundred years or more, we'll pay the > piper for it. errrrrrr Mr. Wright, we are paying for the incorrect decisions by previous caretakers of our society, ie. paying the piper, right now! > One of the purposes that I see this list providing is a forum for the > discussion and transmission of ideas and techniques that work to reduce > the impact people have on their surrounding environment. Educating the > general population is going to take a long time, there's no other way > to do it properly (in today's American society, we could start > screaming about it, and we might even be heard for all of a week before > somebody else starts screaming about something else and the focus of > the media changes). There are no easy solutions, but we have to work > with what we've got. > > Ken Wright > kwright@dynamac.com I can't agree any more with you, you are correct, for the most part on the need for educating the general population, and accessing the media venues must continue. > > P.S.: Please don't call me an idiot. Explain why I'm wrong. Mr. Wright, I don't know if you are an idiot or not, but I can fairly say, your expressions contained in the note, to which I reply, do not indicate it.....or perhaps I would say it.....[g] best regards, Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 13:24:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA05084 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:24:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA09692 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:23:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25397; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:18:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:12:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24448 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:12:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24442 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 13:12:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA23003 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 09:58:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 20 Jan 1998 09:45:30 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: SOUNDPROOF WINDOWS To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA24443 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1384 When considering retrofits, does anyone know whether dual pane windows offer SIGNIFICANT soundproofing qualities? Specifically, if you are plagued with barking dogs in your neighborhood, would dual pane windows help much? Particular brands/qualities? Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 14:38:17 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06529 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:38:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA02755 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:37:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01247; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:31:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:27:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA00847 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:27:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin52.mail.aol.com (mrin52.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.162]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00841 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:26:58 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin52.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA05861; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:31:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:31:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980120143146_-165058225@mrin52> To: jean_gallagher@macgate.csuchico.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: SOUNDPROOF WINDOWS Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1385 Jean, We specified Marvin double-glazed argon-filled U-.32 windows for a basement meditation room adjacent to a busy street. Along with increased insulation (furred out walls w/rigid non-CFC recycled-content foam & rock wool--which we wanted for comfort & energy efficiency anyway) and better air-sealing (for the same reasons), our client ended up with an extremely quiet room. For very noisy situations (like next to a highway) triple-glazed windows can work wonders, if you're willing to pay the cost premium. Sound is kind of like water--it leaks through holes, so tightening the envelope can make a significant difference too. Rob Harrison *** Robert Harrison Architects 1401 NE Boat Street Seattle, WA 98105-6713 206.634-1019 http://members.aol.com/rhdesign --lyrical sustainable design-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 14:53:32 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06746 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:53:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA08130 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02404; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:42:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01987 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:42:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.169]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01983 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:42:32 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:18:57 EST To: jean_gallagher@macgate.csuchico.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: SOUNDPROOF WINDOWS Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1386 Jean asked: << When considering retrofits, does anyone know whether dual pane windows offer SIGNIFICANT soundproofing qualities? Specifically, if you are plagued with barking dogs in your neighborhood, would dual pane windows help much? Particular brands/qualities?>> Jean, Some basic "sound" physics says that: (1) fix the "air" holes first (tightening, weatherstrip around doors, etc.) (2) MASS is needed to block absorbed and retransmitted sound (ie, your thoughts about double glazing versus single are "on target" BUT, may not be enough to get the sound control you seek... Most manufacturers list their window STC ratings ( a measure of "Sound Transmission Class"). Some even manufacturer lines that are specifically designed for high sound areas. (These often have laminated glazings (more massive, multi-layer systems and more massive frames). Sorry I can't direct you to a specific manufacturer... And another thing... adding "good sound" glass to a "bad sound frame" is probably NOT the best solution. To the list: Anybody out there that has actualy TRIED one of those types of retrofits? (I've heard of some "glass-over" attempts, but never of a success....) Good luck Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 15:22:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA07115 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:22:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA19080 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:21:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04025; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:15:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:07:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA03386 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:07:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from cerberus.nga.com (root@nga.com [198.68.22.250]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03382 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 15:07:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from nga.nga.com (nga [192.168.1.10]) by cerberus.nga.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA17775; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 12:12:41 -0800 Received: by nga.nga.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04158; Tue, 20 Jan 98 12:12:43 PST Date: Tue, 20 Jan 98 12:12:43 PST From: jim@nga.com (Jim Roy) Message-Id: <9801202012.AA04158@nga.nga.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, shush@harborside.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Free market quote Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1387 > > >"Free markets know the price of everything, and the value of nothing." > > The original quote is at least a hundred years old and was something > along the lines of..." a fool knows the price of everything, and the > value of nothing". Insert appropriate noun as desired, choose from > "Senators, Government Officials, corporate officers..." Old sayings resurface with new nouns because they remain true. The "free" market is foolish - a one dimensional idiot savant who's talent is for the production of goods The irony is that "Senators, Government Officials, corporate officers...", most of whom are not fools, can't seem to keep the "free" market from killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. Jim Roy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 16:48:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA08448 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:48:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA24614 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:47:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA10780; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:41:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:34:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA10147 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:34:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10141 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:34:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA20572 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:39:35 -0500 Message-id: <1962436@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 20 Jan 98 16:45:20 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: SOUNDPROOF WINDOWS To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1388 I know that my bro used to live in San Bruno, CA. Very close to SF airport. There was a program which paid for the installation of a second glazing layer, specifically for sound reduction, so I assume someone thought this worked pretty well, since it wasn't cheap? Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 16:52:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA08486 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:52:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA26097 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:51:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11135; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:45:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:41:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA10702 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:41:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from c2smtp.payette.com (c2smtp.payette.com [199.232.148.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA10696 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:41:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from NetWare MHS (SMF70) by c2smtp.payette.com via Connect2-SMTP 4.32; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:45:54 -0500 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:45:54 -5000 From: Daniel Arons Disposition-Notification-To: Organization: Payette Associates Inc. To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET ("Marc J. Rosenbaum"), greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: SOUNDPROOF WINDOWS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Connect2-SMTP 4.32 MHS/SMF to SMTP Gateway Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1389 > I know that my bro used to live in San Bruno, CA. Very close to SF > airport. There was a program which paid for the installation of a > second glazing layer, specifically for sound reduction, so I assume > someone thought this worked pretty well, since it wasn't cheap? > > Marc There has historically been a similar program for the neighborhoods surrounding Logan Airport in Boston. ********************** Daniel Arons Architect Payette Associates, Inc (617)342-8201 ext. 324 darons@payette.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 17:21:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA08889 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:21:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA08755 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:20:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13550; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:14:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:10:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA12705 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:09:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA12696 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:09:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA27872; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:14:26 -0800 Message-ID: <34C520BF.EBAB7791@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:10:08 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jean Gallagher CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: SOUNDPROOF WINDOWS References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1390 Glass over can be effective in retrofit if the glass can be positioned at a slight angle to the existing and if the glazing connection is isolated (foam, lead, etc.) from the existing window/structure. Mass is effectively a form of isolation. Cutting into the cavity between frame and window and spray foaming would be effective way of limiting sound transmission from the existing window. This is in essence the advice we received for soundproofing an older commercial building. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jean Gallagher wrote: > When considering retrofits, does anyone know whether dual pane windows offer > SIGNIFICANT soundproofing qualities? Specifically, if you are plagued with > barking dogs in your neighborhood, would dual pane windows help much? > Particular brands/qualities? > > Jean > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 17:29:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA08974 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:29:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA12110 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:27:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14962; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:17:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13953 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:16:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailnfs0.tiac.net (mailnfs0.tiac.net [199.0.65.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13940 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:16:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (p8.ts1.nhamp.MA.tiac.com [207.60.24.105]) by mailnfs0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with SMTP id RAA04100 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:22:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by default with Microsoft Mail id <01BD25C7.887301C0@default>; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:19:15 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD25C7.887301C0@default> From: Duncan Prahl To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: SOUNDPROOF WINDOWS Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:18:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id RAA13943 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1391 My foggy recollection from Acoustics 101 is that the second (or even third) glazing layer helps to cut down on sound transmission, however it is important to consider the frequency range of the sound that is trying to be excluded. I recall a case study in that class for a college around Logan Airport (Boston) where they put a second (or was it third) layer of glazing over existing windows, but spaced it about three inches from the primary windows, to minimize resonant transmission (that being the first glass transmits sound waves, and the second glazing begins to reverberate and transmit that sound into the space.) I think it was a satisfactory retrofit solution, but it was a big project (tax dollars at work) and they really studied the problem (determined frequencies, calculated the mass of glass / frame relative to the frequencies and amplitude, fixed the sashes to air seal, etc.) I'd be hard pressed to guess the frequency range of a dog bark, especially if it is a pack of u! rban mutts and not those fancy dogs with papers. Maybe someone at the AKA knows. Other tidbits lodged in my memory banks: Air is the primary transport mechanism by which sound travels, so air sealing is also important. Mass is a great stopper of sound. And halving the distance between the source diminishes the volume by a power of 2. Can you simply ask the neighbors to move the dogs further away or on the opposite side of their houses? :-) Duncan Prahl, AIA Spectrum Design Collaborative, LLC Northampton, MA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 20:50:00 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA11144 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:49:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA27623 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:48:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23931; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:43:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:38:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA23602 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:38:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA23598 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:38:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA03210 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:44:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 20 Jan 1998 17:43:48 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: WINDOWS & DOGS To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id UAA23599 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1392 Thanks to all for window advice. For those who recommended shooting or moving the offending dog: 1) there are, at last count, about 6 dogs, who tend to do what dogs of irresponsible owners do; 2) people here in California tend to think of dogs, like hot tubs, as sacred objects. When we suggested to the nearest dog neighbor that she might consider training her dog, she said "the dog has a God-given right to be here and express herself just as you do!" It sounds as though storm windows, properly placed might be as good if not better, and certainly cheaper. (We've got old 1972 aluminum sliders; stucco walls make retrofitting a little difficult, though one guy said "just whack off those overlaps with a concrete blade, pop out the old, pop in the new." As for filling the spaces between window and wood frame with foam, how does one do that unless you DO remove old window? Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 20:57:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA11207 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:57:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA00180 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 20:56:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA21082; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:27:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:22:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA20769 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.169]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA20765 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:22:26 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <6df2a1ca.34c540be@aol.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:26:36 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: RE: GBlist: SOUNDPROOF WINDOWS Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAA20766 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1393 Jean, Hurd and other manufacturers using Heat Mirror Film tout the sound proofing benefits. I have used Hurd windows partially for sound proofing on a couple jobs and customers seemed pleased with the results. It would make sense that the flexibility of the film would dampen sound vibrations better than glass at least at some frequencies. (One of you scientist folks can explain all that better) Perhaps Heat Mirror replacement windows or some film type interior storm could help out. With the Heat Mirror window you get the added values of significant energy savings, consciously selected shading coefficients, solar control, tints, etc. There should be a Hurd dealer in your area. There are several replacement window companies using Heat Mirror film making windows to custom sizes as well. The best one I know of is Ultra Building Products. Their glass factory number is 914-561-3138. I don’t have a contact for window sales. Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 21:26:47 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA11668 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:26:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA11883 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:25:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25346; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:19:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:15:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA25011 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25002 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 21:15:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA04061; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 18:20:50 -0800 Message-ID: <34C55A89.8F0EACAD@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 18:16:42 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jean Gallagher CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: WINDOWS & DOGS References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1394 For foaming between window and frame remove the outer or inner trim. Setting the storms at a slight off angle (will probably happen in any event) is a simple way of minimizing resonant transmission. Specifying a thicker or different thickness ofglass for the storms than your exist will also help with resonance. Use some kind of flexible gasket between storms and exist house and as few connectors as possible. Jean Gallagher wrote: > Thanks to all for window advice. For those who recommended shooting or > moving the offending dog: 1) there are, at last count, about 6 dogs, who tend > to do what dogs of irresponsible owners do; 2) people here in California tend > to think of dogs, like hot tubs, as sacred objects. When we suggested to the > nearest dog neighbor that she might consider training her dog, she said "the > dog has a God-given right to be here and express herself just as you do!" > > It sounds as though storm windows, properly placed might be as good if not > better, and certainly cheaper. (We've got old 1972 aluminum sliders; stucco > walls make retrofitting a little difficult, though one guy said "just whack > off those overlaps with a concrete blade, pop out the old, pop in the new." > As for filling the spaces between window and wood frame with foam, how does > one do that unless you DO remove old window? > > Jean > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 20 22:25:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA12357 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:25:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA04757 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:24:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA27633; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:18:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:14:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA27327 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:14:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.169]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27319 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:14:15 -0500 (EST) From: RodLambert Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:04:33 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: mobile home Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1395 For the benefit of others on the list, it's important not to confuse mobile homes with manufactured homes. Manufactured homes are often difficult to tell from stick built homes and they are subject to state building codes. I can usually tell a mobile home a mile away - well maybe 300 yards - and they are subject to a less stringent federal code only. Neither produces a home with "soul" IMHO. I'd be delighted to see a copy of the study Allen Lee mentioned as we are looking at all possibilities for the next phase of construction here. Rod Lambert Development Management Second Neighborhood Group Ecovillage at Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 07:28:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA16638 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:28:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA23471 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:27:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA13224; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:21:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:14:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA12691 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:14:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.177]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA12687 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:14:13 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl Message-ID: <8cb0c218.34c5e7d1@aol.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:19:27 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: jean_gallagher@macgate.csuchico.edu Subject: GBlist: SOUNDPROOF WINDOWS Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1396 Jean We have just finished a recording studio in an old church and needed to sound proof the aging, leaky stained glass windows to both keep the sound out from a highway near by and keep the sound in to maintain happy neighbors (remember most musicians don't begin to come alive until dark, somewhat like vampires). We added 1/4" laminated glass overlay to one side, pulled the casings and foamed the space around them. During the next snow storm the front loader clearing the driveway across the street did not stop the recording session (acoustical banjo and voice). The window between the studio and control room is two panes of 1/4 laminated, one of which is angled but that is to stop bounce within the room being reflected back to the engineer. Laminated works the on the same idea as using RC channel and drywall, one dense layer followed by another acoustically dissimilar layer. Mass alone is not a solution with glass, you need flexibility. The thicker and heavier glasses are too stiff to "give" unlike a laminated glass which will absorb without reverberating. Lots of good web sites dealing with acoustic control exist. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc, Inc, Contractors Ithaca, NY >>From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: SOUNDPROOF WINDOWS When considering retrofits, does anyone know whether dual pane windows offer SIGNIFICANT soundproofing qualities? Specifically, if you are plagued with barking dogs in your neighborhood, would dual pane windows help much? Particular brands/qualities? Jean << ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 08:08:04 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA16948 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:08:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA04445 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:06:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA14630; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:01:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:57:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA14317 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:56:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA14313 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from sover.net (usr0a5.burl.sover.net [207.136.198.105]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06248 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:02:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34C5F0E6.B6D3A9F5@sover.net> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:58:14 -0500 From: Eric Warren X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: SOUNDPROOF WINDOWS References: <34C520BF.EBAB7791@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1397 John Salmen wrote: > >Snip.. Cutting into the cavity between frame and window and spray foaming > would be effective way of limiting sound transmission from the existing window. > This is in essence the advice we received for soundproofing an older commercial > building. I've understood spray foaming around window cavities to be a bad idea. Foams apparently have enough expansive force to put excessive pressure on sills, jambs, etc. I've never used the stuff - are there foams specific to this type of application? -Eric Warren ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 10:37:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19187 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:37:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA26003 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:36:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21390; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:31:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:26:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20786 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:26:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20769; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA13145; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:31:24 -0800 Message-ID: <34C613D0.F35D1959@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:27:12 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Shengar , "greenbuilding@crest.org" CC: hyphen@dial.pipex.com, "strawbale@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Re: dehumidifiers [was: Re:Dynamic Wall Houses] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1398 An exhaust air to hot water heat pump (EAHP) seems like an effective way of handling exhaust air in those circumstances. They benefit is that the chilled air (wasted during heating) could be used for cooling as well. Their efficiency is basically related to hotwater usage. Average savings in hot water heating is 50%. The only application I know of is to domestic hot water but I would be curious what the potential is for radiant heating applications. The units supply about half the heat of a standard hot water tank so a large storage tank is used to provide for slower recovery but this lower heating range and supply might be well suited if split to a closed system running at a lower temp. Anyone have any thoughts on this as the units have a relatively long payback for just hot water supply but if could be used effectively for heating/hw/exhaust air there would be more potential for getting these into houses. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Shengar wrote: > Dear Mark > That is my design queation. My mid-atlantic climate (1000 CDD,4000 HDD) has > me considering my options on cooling systems. A superinsulated house has to > much moisture for a Energy Recovery Ventilation (ERV) to deal with to > maintain 50% RH. They need a vapor differencial to work. I am searching for > the best method to augment the ERV to handle those inbetween times of high RH > but not hot enought for AC. The best I've seen diliver 6.8 pints/Kwh Know of > any better? AC cost way more > > Regards Erich j Knight ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 10:56:48 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19917 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:56:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA01761 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:55:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22300; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:49:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:45:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21997 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:45:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21993 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:45:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.17] (mke-1-1.binc.net [208.142.229.17]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA07529; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:50:07 -0600 Message-Id: <199801211550.JAA07529@glacier.binc.net> Subject: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: Shabby envelopes in new construction Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 04:51:07 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "Craig DeWitt" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1399 Craig, Thanks for so eloquently putting the statement that desire to do the job right must be part of the contractor's motivation. I've spent the last few years firing some subs in favor of others, who are invariably more expensive, but who take pride in what they do, and refuse to do a "sub-standard" (some pun intended) job. The folks I work with insist on doing the best job possible, with the longevity of the project and the customer's satisfaction as the driving motivation- not just the bottom line. I, or rather my customers, pay for it- no doubt. But the folks I build for understand these issues and are willing to pay for a house which is built with better materials by craftsmen who care. They understand that the payback is long-term. I'm sure the contractors I work with are motivated by pride to a great degree. I like that. In fact, a few of the subs that work for me refuse to "bid" jobs in the old fashioned sense of the word. There was a great article in Journal of Light Construction a few months ago about getting away from competitive bidding. When bids are so competitive, it absolutely has to cause quality to suffer. The trades who work this way are just looking for a way to cut a corner to make an extra buck on the job. I personally can't understand how these folks can sleep at night- I'd be an alcoholic and a chainsmoker inside of a month. To further the example of HVAC contractors: my sub does complete and exhaustive calcs on the structure, including complicated glazing analyses, and follows up the installation with a blower door test and further fine tuning of the system well after occupancy. He's up to $2K higher than the cheap guy on the average installation, but thoroughly worth it in the long run. Look for these tradesmen. They are out there. They are usually very busy, and they are never the low bid, but they are the best value in the end. Chris Koehn Top Ridge Homes ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 11:24:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20275 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:24:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10205 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:22:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24265; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:12:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23725 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:12:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23714 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:12:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 23815 invoked from network); 21 Jan 1998 16:17:35 -0000 Received: from ac025.du.pipex.com (HELO ) (193.130.242.25) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 21 Jan 1998 16:17:35 -0000 Message-ID: <34C61F60.464F@dial.pipex.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:16:32 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Reply-To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Shengar , John Salmen CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "strawbale@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Re: dehumidifiers [was: Re:Dynamic Wall Houses] References: <34C613D0.F35D1959@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1400 John Salmen wrote: > > An exhaust air to hot water heat pump (EAHP) seems like an effective > way of handling exhaust air in those circumstances. They benefit is > that the chilled air (wasted during heating) could be used for cooling > as well.... Despite (well, actually consistent with) my previous messages, this makes a certain amount of sense to me. Now, I have no idea whatsoever what heat pump technology is readily available over there in the U S of A. But my one quibble with heat pumps over here is that they tend to be compression-cycle, and electrically driven. Hence, although the nature of the heat pump is such that you "claim back" some of the heat that was wasted at the power station, it generally ends up no more efficient than a modern natural gas boiler (ok, that's furnace to you colonials) in terms of primary energy. And if you are using it for both heating and cooling, you can't optimise for both, so the coefficient of performance drops although the cost-effectiveness improves. Technically better options would be a compression cycle heat pump driven by a Rankine cycle engine (name your fuel - but natural gas is least problematic), or an absorption cycle heat pump, driven by a heat input (i.e. no mechanical or electrical power required). These two options have lagged behind the "standard" electrical compression-cycle technology in their development, and their use in practice is still rather rare. But I recently heard of an absorption-cycle chiller being installed as part of an a/c system over here (yes, sadly, some of our offices are sufficiently poorly designed to require a/c) - it wouldn't be cheap, Erich, unless some manufacturer is willing to use you as a guinea-pig or as a demonstration project at a cut price. If you want to pursue that avenue, the installation I just mentioned is for Woking Borough Council, near London. It is part of a complex services system, including CHP (cogeneration) as well, so the Civic Offices get heating, hot water, air conditioning and electricity out of the system. Your requirements are obviously not so complex. I don't have a complete address, but the following should get there: Allan Jones Energy Services Manager Woking Borough Council Civic Offices Woking Surrey GU21 ??? England I have no idea what might come of this, but good luck! To encourage you, I would say that (i) local government in Britain is strapped for cash (legacy of Margaret Thatcher), and that (ii) Mr Jones is getting a bit of a reputation for himself as a competent energy manager who secures savings both in energy use and in financial outlay. Anyway, all the best, Mark Bigland-Pritchard hyphen@dial.pipex.com Bristol, England ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 11:37:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20494 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:37:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA14286 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:36:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25131; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:30:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:26:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24764 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:26:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24760 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:26:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id KAA0000008058; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:31:31 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980121163302.0068c550@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:33:02 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Big Foot forms Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1401 Can someone tell me where I can get information about the "Big Foot" concrete forms? Has anyone had experience with these? Thanks Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 12:53:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21925 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:53:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA15930 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:52:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00396; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:46:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:42:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA29860 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:42:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29840; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:42:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA28050; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:46:59 GMT (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:47:01 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: dehumidifiers [was: Re:Dynamic Wall Houses] To: Mark Bigland-Pritchard cc: Shengar , John Salmen , "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "strawbale@crest.org" X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <34C61F60.464F@dial.pipex.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1402 Although Mark's comments are correct, the capital is unfortunately not usually worth doing it with the under-priced/subsidized energy we have in N.A. I have also struggled with the problem of inefficient electrical energy being used efficiently by heat pumps. Most fossil fueled elctrical power plants have a total efficiency of 30%, but new combined cycle natural gas turbines that are presently being installed can easily double this -- the newest one being released this year by ABB has something like a total 85% efficiency! this is clearly the future, and if prices for fossil fuels increased, the rpelacement rate of the old 30% eff for new 85% eff would accelerate. This may change the entire industry If the coefficient of performance of your heat pump is 3.0, then the actual energy burned to get the cooling/dehumidfying power you need is =1/(.3*3.) = about 110%. If you use an Otto cycle powered compresor, the efficiency is about 35% (if all works well) and so you are not further ahead. Of course, heating efficiency is way better -- gas furnaces of 85% to 95% are widely available. Your question was dehumidification however and I doubt wehter the capital cost or embdied energy of a very efficiency furnace plus a good heat pump dehumidifier/chiller is less than other options. If you wish to find a small gas powered chiller, check out the container and trucking industry. I once had reason to wander around the Singapore container port and was amazed by the constant hum of the little air conditioning units built right into the thousands of refrigerated containers. These little units are comletely self-contained, reliable, and maybe efficient (you dont want to carry fuel around the world with the container if you can help it). If you are interested in absorption cycle chillers, contact enermodal engineering at www.enermodal.com. Their office building is the first C-2000 office (modeled on R-2000 homes) and uses a Japanese chiller (the Swedes and Japanese have the best). There are many problems with such chillers, but consider them. If dehumdification is your interest, consider solar regenerated dessicant de humificiation. The process is this -- a very hygroscopic (vapour adsorbing) material, such as sawdust, wool, silica gel, etc., is heated by the sun while lightly vented to the exterior. The material is then exposed to the interior air, perhaps with the aid of a fan. Since the temp is lower huge amounts of water vapour are adsorbed, reducing the interior RH. Now that the material has increased its moisture content the process is replayed. I know of no commerical implementations of such a machine, but something similiar to a enthalpy heat recovery wheel springs to mind as a simple means of implementation. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 14:07:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23263 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:07:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA16315 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:06:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05715; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:00:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:55:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05127 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:55:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05123 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:55:26 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:48:15 EST To: Nadav@ebuild.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: EBN Resource Guide Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1403 Alex, Nadav and all the other folks at Environmental Building News, I just got your resource guide in yesterdays mail. What an incredible resource it is itself. I may not have quite as much time to chatter on the greenbuilding list with all the reading you've given us to do. I can't believe I waited as long as I did to become a subscriber. The work you folks are doing is absolutely wonderful. I just wanted to thank you. I am posting this to the list to let others know not to wait to become a subscriber. The guide alone is worth twice your subscription cost. Thanks for your great work, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 14:08:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23284 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:08:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA16806 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:07:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05844; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:01:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:57:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05296 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:57:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05286 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:57:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.198.23.48] (uA1-b15.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.48]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA25052; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:02:50 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34C61F60.464F@dial.pipex.com> References: <34C613D0.F35D1959@cow-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 02:08:33 -0500 To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: dehumidifiers [was: Re:Dynamic Wall Houses] Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1404 Mark, Along the lines of high efficiency heat pumps, the work done by Greg Swift at LASL using high power density standing sound waves to power compression cycles in refridgeration systems seems to be coming to fruition. A commercial venture gave a demonstration at the acoustics conference in California a few months ago. Promises to be very efficient and to use no cfcs. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 16:19:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA25151 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:19:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA11444 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:18:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA13443; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:12:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:08:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA12997 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:08:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA12989 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:08:08 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey Message-ID: Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:52:45 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: SOUNDPROOF WINDOWS Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1405 Jean, I installed Andersen wood-frame casements with double insulated argon-filled glass along one side of our uninsulated 1923 Berkeley Bungalow, cutting by about two-thirds the sound of the world's most annoying poodle. However, the thing that worked best, and I kid you not, was Feng Shui. The dog was nothing compared to the angry crazy neighbors themselves. However, after eight years and a comprehensive set of renovations, changes of placement or usage, and other strategies developed with our Feng Shui practitioner, we actually have better communication with our neighbors and we are no longer considering fleeing the neighborhood in search of "civilization." I still would like to pin a wooden medal on that dog, honoring it as the planet's most annoying creature--but that is my personal obsession. By the way, we tried that electronic device you can point at a barking dog, press the trigger, and it emits (inaudible to humans) a signal which is supposed to be painful to the dog's ears, causing the offending dog to cower in submission. Forget it. PS, a cheap window strategy that has worked for some therapists' offices has been to screw a sheet of plexiglass over one side of the entire window frame (inside casements and bottom sashes, outside top sashes), preferably with a cushioning weatherstrip between. Minimal number of screws minimizes sound transfer and allows easy access for routine cleaning. Counterbalance weights for sashes no longer work without adjustment. Indoor storms set into the entire window jamb area can work if you have other means of ventilation. As others have described, upgraded windows will be most effective if the entire wall is insulated and gaps sealed. As with thermal considerations, sound can also travel through the floor (in crawl space buildings) and the connection between the roof and wall, if insulation is not continuous. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant Berkeley, CA IAQKibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 16:28:53 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA25328 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:28:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA15378 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:27:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA14045; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:22:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:18:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA13653 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:18:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheetah.pacinfo.com (root@cheetah.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA13647 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:17:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (p17.s2.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.199]) by cheetah.pacinfo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04520 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:23:21 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980121163302.0068c550@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> References: Conversation <1.5.4.32.19980121163302.0068c550@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> with last message <1.5.4.32.19980121163302.0068c550@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Clan Handley" Subject: Re: GBlist: Big Foot forms Date: Wed, 21 Jan 98 13:13:57 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA13648 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1406 ---------- > Can someone tell me where I can get information about the "Big Foot" > concrete forms? Has anyone had experience with these? Thanks Sacie > Lambertson Bigfoot Footing System, F&S Manufacturing Inc. 800-934-4793 I don't know anything about them other than they were used on This Old House. Barbara http://www.angelfire.com/or/ishmael Ishmael -- Resources for Further Study ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 16:51:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA25689 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:51:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA25063 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:50:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15585; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:44:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:40:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA15082 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:40:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA15043; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:40:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA04944; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:44:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-14.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.142) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma004824; Wed Jan 21 15:44:05 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980121164315.006e5170@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:43:19 -0500 To: ee-building@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: EEBA Standing Tech. Committee / Nominations Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAB15066 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1407 << EEBA Bulletin >> EEBA Standing Tech. Committee / Accepting Nominations [21 January, 1998] Energy Efficient Building Association (EEBA) upgrades technical committee to Standing Technical Committee, appoints Richard Tracey of D&R International Chair, and Brad O'berg, IBACOS co-chair. The EEBA STC will be involved in all aspects of association technical quality assurance and project review, as well as helping the Board of Directors (in advisory capacity) develop new programs and directions for EEBA into the next Century. The newly upgraded EEBA STC is seeking nominations of qualified members for service during an initial 1998/1999 term. To be nominated, a person must be an EEBA member (current in dues; any classification) and should fit the criterion listed in the draft mission statement and scope attached. Nominations will be accepted through COB February 16, 1998. Nominations should include three professional references. Nomination formats: (e-mail) Name, affiliation, title, phone, fax, e-mail 150 word statement of intent and credentials attach resume and publications list (file, or URL) (by fax) Name, affiliation, title, phone, fax, e-mail 150 word statement of intent and credentials attach resume and publications list (up to 4 pgs.) (surface mail) Name, affiliation, title, phone, fax, e-mail 150 word statement intent and of credentials attach resume and publications list Surface mail address: EEBA STC Nominating Task Group c/o Building Enviro. Sci. & Tech. POB 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ------------ attachment ------------- EEBA Technical Committee (draft) Mission Statement The mission of the Technical Committee of the Energy Efficient Building Association (EEBA-TC) is to provide for the integrity of the technical transactions of the association. The EEBA-TC shall be maintained and staffed as a permanent "standing committee," reporting to the EEBA Board of Directors. Technical Committee Scope: The regular activities of the EEBA-TC will include: · annual maintenance of Criteria via consensus process, to the extent possible; · providing assistance to EEBA Councils (funded by Council dues as necessary) · reviewing candidate materials for bookstore and web-sales from outside sources; · oversight of the publications authored by EEBA; · peer review for papers / articles submitted to the annual conference and EEBA Journal · reviewing the work-plans, conduct and results of technical projects funded by outside agencies; and · development of new program areas for EEBA upon approval by the Board of Directors. >From time to time the Technical Committee (or its members) may be called upon to participate in special projects deemed vital to the association by the EEBA Board of Directors. ------------------------------- EEBA Staff contact: Bion Howard, Associate Director - Mid-Atlantic bhoward2@sprynet.com ------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 19:26:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA28056 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:26:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA21348 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:25:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24146; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:19:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:15:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA23880 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:15:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA23875 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:15:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.232] (pa-ppp44.hevanet.com [204.119.60.80]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21839 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:20:31 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:19:23 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: SOUNDPROOF WINDOWS Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1408 Hi, All-- Of course, it's too obvious to need saying--but just to put my old mind at ease--I hope you will try not to inadvertently seal off any egress windows while installing soundproof storms or covers. Auntie Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Earth Smart Program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 20:27:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA28744 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:27:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA15263 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:26:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA27072; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:20:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:15:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA26621 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:15:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA26617 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:15:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sa2-p40.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.40]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id UAA01191 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:20:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34C69DDA.3E06@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:16:10 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Interior magnetic storms Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1409 Anyone have experience and/or sources for interior storms that are magnetically fastened? By the way, my original plea to look to the market place for change, was predicated on the notion that the goal was to build an informed market place through education, on many levels. It was certainly not a call to anarchy. Over sight by legislation and regulation can be useful, just as they can also be destructive and counter productive. Anyone who is willing to put their unquestioning faith in the bureaucratic engines as a force for change and the betterment of the world as we know it, is looking at a wholly different reality base from mine. Are we both talking about the EPA, DEC (NY), U.S.Forest Service, the Transportation Dept, Army Corps of Engineers, U.S Congress, the list is endless. What exactly is the collective track record of these agencies? Do we really believe that these same agencies are immune to the evil market forces that are continually touted as the villainous antagonist here (Snidely Whiplash comes to mind for some reason). Bureaucracies are at least as susceptible to corporate pressure as is an informed consumer, if not considerably more so. I'm not proposing an unfettered economic free for all, or a specific economic system (Marxism, Capitalism, enlightened despotism, feudalism or Diggerism). What I meant was simply that the most important force in any of this discussion is the consumer, no matter who your heroes be. If you choose to spend your energy trying to leverage the power blocks in Washington and won't be discouraged when the next change of administration sweeps all of your hard earned concessions out with the confetti left after the inaugural, then have at 'em. Does the name Ronald Reagan ring any bells? Where did all of those solar, wind and insulation incentives go, anyways? Terry said something like think global and act loco, mine is you can change the market one mind at a time. Once you win a convert the growth becomes exponential. People aren't stupid, they just need a chance to learn and a reason to change. Taking the attitude that they are the enemy IS idiotic. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 21:11:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29141 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:11:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA29577 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:09:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29402; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:04:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:59:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA28834 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:59:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28826 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:59:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.30] (blf30.acadia.net [205.217.217.30]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA03456 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:04:52 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:02:54 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Abrams in Fine Homebuilding Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1410 John Abrams, a member of this group, has an excellent article in the most recent Fine Homebuilding about assembling an "owner's manual" for the projects he builds. Recommended reading. Nice job, John. For 11 years now, we've been giving our clients photos of all the plumbing and wiring, keyed to plans, along with names of all the folks who worked on the house, and manuals for all the equipment, but we haven't done anything as comprehensive or well presented as you're doing. Thanks for an informative piece. - David Foley David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 21:11:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29140 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:11:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA29576 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:09:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29400; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:04:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:00:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA28842 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:59:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28827 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:59:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.30] (blf30.acadia.net [205.217.217.30]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA03465 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:04:55 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:02:57 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: commercial building retrofit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1411 Dear Folks, We may have a job designing a retrofit of a 12,000 sq. ft., 2-story commercial building in Augusta, Maine - about 8,000 HDD, design temp about -20F, short but significant air-conditioning season in late summer. The clients are a non-profit environmental advocacy group (a speciality of our firm, which helps keep us non-profit, too!) who want their limited funds to increase the environmental sustainability of the building in the most cost-effective way. They can't afford to do Green Building merely to make a statement, but want to do anything they can with a payback, within a $250,000 renovation budget. The building is about 8 years old, and was built as a commercial spec building. As is typical of the genre, little thought was given to orientation, window-placement, building envelope, lighting and mechanical systems, indoor air quality, etc., etc. It's a box with a truss roof, minimal attic and wall insulation, Peachtree IG double-hung windows. It is bermed into a hillside for one story on the north. It is slightly longer in the east-west axis than the north-south. Each of the two entries is a vestibule with double pairs of doors. Heating/air conditioning is handled by 4 air-to-air heat pumps. I don't know their coefficient of performance. I do know that their is an 800 amp (!) electrical entrance. Current tenants note that the air conditioning is on a lot in the summer, and that the sun causes a lot of heat gain through the southern and western windows. The air-handling system is not balanced. Since we are going to reconfigure interior spaces, we will wait until this is done to re-test and balance the system. Currently, individual offices don't have return air - apparently the intent was to have air return via undercut doors. I don't believe this works. Several outside air feeds were never hooked up, and the duct insulation is in bad shape. Flooring is the typical vinyl and carpet - the smell of mold and mildew in the carpet is ghastly, especially in the corridors near the entries, where the wet boots tread. Over a half-hour coffee break, we've brainstormed up the following ideas for cost-effective ways to improve the building: - hook up the fresh air supplies as intended in the design, and redo the duct insulation. - cap the attic with 16 more inches of blown cellulose. - Blower door test to locate leaks - fix leaks. - building a shading trellis over the south and west windows, depth calculated to admit winter sun but not summer. - replace the lights (standard grid troffers) with new fixtures with T8 lamps and electronic ballasts. - replace all vinyl with real linoleum; replace all carpet with ultra-low VOC, solid-rubber backed carpet (we've used a carpet made by Collins and Aikman with good results on other projects). Use Low-VOC paint throughout. - install "whole-house" fan in attic to help with cooling loads. - POSSIBLY run the heat pumps, when in heating mode to a large, insulated water storage tank - circulate hot water to fan coils for heating, instead of refrigerent. Allows heat pumps to work at off-peak times, can possibly supplement water heating with other sources (boiler, solar on roof?). - POSSIBLY investigate retrofit/replacement of heat pumps from air/air to ground source heat. Large parking lot to south of building under which pipe loop ould be buried. Unfortunately, driveway recently redone. Any comments/thoughts/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. We don't have the job yet, so I'm unable to provide much more data. Thanks. - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 21:16:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29172 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA00986 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:14:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29817; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:09:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:05:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA29513 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:05:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA29508 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.30] (blf30.acadia.net [205.217.217.30]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA03859 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:10:30 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:08:32 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Big Foot forms Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1412 I used big foot forms for a barn I built a couple of years ago. Before then, I'd make a sacrificial box of scrap wood, attach to the bottom of the pier form, bury and backfill the thing, then pour. This time, I did the same thing using the big foot form, and it worked great. I don't remember the cost, but it seemed worth it, considering the time I saved over the old method - I was working alone to a tight deadline. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 23:37:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA00679 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:37:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA17665 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:36:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA06674; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:30:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:26:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA05955 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:25:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05947 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:25:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000023385; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:31:06 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980122043328.0068ca0c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:33:28 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Re: composting toilets Cc: M J Epko Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1413 . " However I will reiterate that no toilet that does not >sustain pasteurization temperatures in the compost can make the claim that >the compost is pathogen free, regardless of retention time. " Does this mean it is foolish to think about a composting toilet unless it's kept warm? I know nothing decomposes until it reaches a certain temperature, but can the smell be averted, covered up or whatever in the cold? Would like some real life experience here please. It would save us a lot to put in a composting toilet in a some-time-used cabin rather than having to pump up hill to an existing septic system some distance away---or to put in another. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 21 23:37:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA00685 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA17716 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:36:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA06682; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:30:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:26:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA05986 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05966 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:25:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000031051; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:31:02 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980122043325.0068a028@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:33:25 -0600 To: "Clan Handley" From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Big Foot forms Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1414 Thanks Barbara, I tried that # and got an answering system but no response---so far. Maybe they are inundated with calls from that article. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 02:06:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA02218 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 02:06:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA05480 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 02:05:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA02624; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 01:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 01:55:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA02396 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 01:55:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from igc7.igc.org (igc7.igc.apc.org [192.82.108.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA02392 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 01:54:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from igc2.igc.apc.org (root@igc2.igc.org [192.82.108.39]) by igc7.igc.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06078 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:59:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from crsp@localhost) by igc2.igc.apc.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA01497 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:57:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:57:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801220657.WAA01497@igc2.igc.apc.org> From: Lois Arkin To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: L.A. Opport. Green rehab & development Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1415 Are there any eco-rehabbers out there in the L.A. area? I live and work in Los Angeles Eco-Village. Our nonprofit organization, CRSP, owns a 40 unit 75 year old apartment building (36 singles, 4 one- bedrooms). We are rehabbing unit by unit. The building has not been well cared for the past several years, but it is quite wonderful in a number of ways. Our rehab work has been mostly concerned with refinishing floors, scraping, mudding, painting, putting new ceramic tile in bathtub area, installing new linoleum in kitchens, cleaning and fixing the numerous little things that make an apartment unit ready to move-in. A few units need major rehab, a few others fairly minor rehab, and most need moderate rehab. We are using low VOC paints (mostly Frazee Enviro), Livos products on the floors refinishing (floors are old Douglas fir). In one of the units, a neighbor sewed organic cotton curtains. (Are there any recommendations out there for other least toxic window treatments; a particular type of window shade, etc?). There are numerous other projects with other parts of the building planned, but since we are working out of cashflow, we want to have up to 33 units occupied by the end of the year. Currently, 25 units are occupied. We do public tours here and talk about the rehab work. We would like to get some bids on two or three units from people who are sensitive to this type of work and would like to be associated with an inner city Eco-Village project. Let us know if you're out there locally and would like to come by and do a walk-through. On another but related note, we are also looking for a green developer in the L.A. area to work with us on another project in Eco-Village that involves hot mineral springs, neighborhood computer center, eco-business incubator, etc. It's a 2.1 acre brownfields site (in my opinion) with two building structures, one a 40,000 sq. foot structure, the other 14,000 square feet. If you or someone you know has interest in this sort of thing, especially if the person is well positioned with City agencies here (City of L.A.), please contact me as soon as possible. Thanks. ****************************************************************** Lois Arkin 3551 White House Place Los Angeles, CA 90004 Los Angeles Eco-Village: a sustainable community in process and the west coast node for the Ecovillage Network of the Americas (ENA) phone: 213/738-1254 fax: 213/386=8873 email: crsp@igc.apc.org web: http://alumni.caltech.edu/~mignon/laev.html ****************************************************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 09:40:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06089 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:40:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA02832 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:39:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15259; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:33:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:29:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14960 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:29:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14954 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:29:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA75052; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:33:36 -0700 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:33:36 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "David M. Foley" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: commercial building retrofit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1416 David: We are about to start on a similar slightly larger food store. Some of the items identified at this time that we will be looking at include: 1. ECMs (Energy Conservation Measures) 2. weathization 3. efficient & healthy lighting 4. green power 5. greywater treatment & reuse 6. ground water heat pump 7. alternative soft water treatment 8. cogeneration: NG turbine (ie. Capstone) 9. solar hot water systems 10. vermicomposting 11. photovoltaics 12. architectural guidelines & controls 13. solar hot air (ie. Solarwall) 14. industry & government partnerships 15. administrative upgrades 16. roofing upgrades 17. water conservation 18. EIS (Environmental Impact Statement) 19. window & wall upgrades 20. optimizing internal heat gain (ie.compressors, people, etc.) 21. cold outside air intake to offset compressor use 22. zero point (over/unity) energy devices (ie.Griggs pump, Browns' Gas, etc.) What other obvious or interesting technologies have not yet been included? _________________________________________________________ Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 11:37:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07798 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:37:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA14724 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:36:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22015; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:30:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:26:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21625 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:26:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from zeus.ia.net (zeus.ia.net [205.160.208.33]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21621 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:26:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from zeus.ia.net (dip453.inav.net [206.230.238.42]) by zeus.ia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA26480 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:31:25 -0600 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:31:25 -0600 Message-Id: <199801221631.KAA26480@zeus.ia.net> X-Sender: ecicog@mailhost.ia.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: ecicog Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1417 Jan. 22, 1998 Does anyone out there have experience with recycled-content siding? I have information from the various directories (Green Building Resource Guide, REDI, Harris Directory, etc.) but would like to talk to someone who has sided a house with one or more of the products available. My agency rehabs and builds new houses for low and moderate income folks and we would like to use more recycled-content building materials. Marie DeVries ecicog@ia.net 319-398-1266 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 11:44:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07937 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:44:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA16884 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22553; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:37:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:33:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22154 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:33:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22150 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:33:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04339; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:38:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip215.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.215), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd004275; Thu Jan 22 09:38:37 1998 Message-ID: <34C775C0.52B7BC78@primenet.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:37:21 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Thermostats References: <1956981@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1418 Dear Marc, What is your objection to the programmable thermostat units? I have one that uses two double "A" batteries per year and is very effective. I think these "gizmos" are one of the best simple advancements for conserving heating and cooling resources in quite some time. Simple, effective and easily installed. Regards, John Wilson Prescott, AZ. Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > Any suggestions for a simple, non-programmable, non-mercury thermostat, that > has easy to read setpoint numbers, and a built-in thermometer? I'm seeking to > replace the ubiquitous (omnipresent) Honeywell T87, which does a fine job but > has mercury switch inside. > > Marc Rosenbaum > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 12:00:21 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08136 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA22603 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:59:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23738; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:53:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:49:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23331 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:49:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from zeus.ia.net (zeus.ia.net [205.160.208.33]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23327 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:49:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from zeus.ia.net (dip440.inav.net [206.230.238.29]) by zeus.ia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA27068 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:54:31 -0600 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:54:31 -0600 Message-Id: <199801221654.KAA27068@zeus.ia.net> X-Sender: ecicog@mailhost.ia.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: ecicog Subject: GBlist: recycled-content siding Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1419 Jan. 22, 1998 Does anyone have experience with recycled content siding? I have information from the various directories but would like to hear from someone who has used any of the products available. Marie DeVries ecicog@ia.net 319-398-1266 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 12:45:05 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08649 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:45:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA14568 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:43:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27541; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:38:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:31:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26344 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:31:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from cerberus.nga.com (root@nga.com [198.68.22.250]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26330 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:31:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from nga.nga.com (nga [192.168.1.10]) by cerberus.nga.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA30100 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:36:44 -0800 Received: by nga.nga.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04403; Thu, 22 Jan 98 09:36:46 PST Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 09:36:46 PST From: jim@nga.com (Jim Roy) Message-Id: <9801221736.AA04403@nga.nga.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: off topic Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1420 Many of you probably know about Peter Montegue and the Environmental Research foundation, and their weekly publication "Rachel's Environment & Health Weekly". This weeks issue ( #582 ) touches on the recent side debate in this group concerning free market economics. While I agree with Chuck Hinckley that building change on the basis of an informed market is a good thing, Mr. Montague's article clearly shows that much more is needed. Anyway, if you haven`t seen Rachel's, here's the skinny . E-mail to INFO@rachel.clark.net with the single word HELP . . in the message; back issues also available via ftp from . . ftp.std.com/periodicals/rachel and from gopher.std.com . . and from http://www.monitor.net/rachel/ . . Subscribe: send E-mail to rachel-weekly-request@world.std.com . . with the single word SUBSCRIBE in the message. It's free. . ================================================================= Thanks for the indulgence Jim Roy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 13:18:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA09128 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:18:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA29327 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:16:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00580; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:11:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:07:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA29941 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:06:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.167]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29933 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:06:53 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:03:14 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org, nesea@nesea.org Subject: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1421 Friends, A new topic and another long post. I keep seeing promotion of thatching, straw bale houses, mud and straw buildings and other techniques that sound pretty funky and primitive. Apparently there is a revival of compostable buildings going on. Magazine articles, books being written, workshops, etc. I don't get it. What's the point of all this? The same folks that most bemoan our inability to instantly transform society into sustainable nirvana often appear to be the folks actively promoting these primitive labor intensive building technologies. The promotions imply that these are the most politically correct housing solutions of the future due to their high organic content and low tech, do it yourself friendliness. I have to admit at the outset that I am being presumptuous and have never bothered to look into these technologies. That is because they appear to represent a giant step backward in the approach to the development of building solutions. These technologies won't seem real attractive or progressive to folks I work with. I've come to believe that I can be most effective in changing paradigms and solving global problems if I focus my efforts with regular middle class folks right in my own small town. My customers are concerned more about building a home than about saving the world. The banks are involved. So is the building inspector. These institutional players tend to be pretty traditional, as do most of my clients. I can sell agriboard panels made of fused straw a lot easier than I can sell a house made of straw bales. This is because: 1) the house will look normal and traditional; 2) I can build it using skilled trades people working in a efficient manner; 3) it's an exciting environmentally friendly advance in technology; 4) my customers all heard the story of the Three Little Pigs at a young impressionable age; and 5) there won't be bugs and mice crawling out of the agriboard panels. Maybe that's all silly and unfair, but consider the reality of my direct job costs as a builder. A lot costs $50,000 minimum. Plans, permits, engineering and government mandated paperwork cost another $3,000 at the low side. Well and septic system add at least $8,000 and usually much more. Site work adds another $5,000 or more. Around here, labor costs around $20 per hour. By the time we get done installing a foundation, doors, windows, cabinets, stairs, fixtures, plumbing, electric work, plaster, floor surfaces, painting and everything else that goes into a home, a small minimally middle class dwelling will add at least another $50,000, no matter what I build the walls and roof out of. Then I've got my overhead costs as a business, and it would be nice if I could make a small profit. It is going to be kind of hard to convince a home buyer or the other players in the process that they should invest all this money in a basic structure made of straw bales and thatch with huge labor and maintenance inputs rather than more conventional seeming technologies that I can build quickly and efficiently. A couple weeks ago, Chuck Hinkley asked us all a critical question. How do we change the "Dream Home" paradigm for a sustainable future? A Trojan Horse, like a super insulated traditional looking home built from the kinds of materials Steve Lokan uses, will have far more significant impact in changing market expectations toward that elusive ecological "Dream Home", than technologies that invites the folks at the Wall Street Journal to call us Luddites. You can read three page, full color cover stories about Steve's work in Parade Magazine in every Sunday newspaper in the country. You can see him on TV. Everyone is positive about his work: media, consumers, government folks, eco nuts like us, big corporations, builders, architects, NAHB, AIA and the new businesses that are creating the sustainable building materials that he uses. In it's cultural context as well as it's technological and ecological contexts, his work is considered progressive by virtually everyone. It's a winning solution. Cultural expectations are a reality that we have to deal with in order to be successful in our efforts both in our daily work and in our larger aspirations for the world. These expectations define the boundaries and parameters of what is normal and acceptable. It would seem better to promote a radical agenda with a traditional presentation than to confuse and alienate people with stuff that appears real weird or questionable. During the most active period of the US civil rights movement, Martin Luther King, in his suit and tie and preacher's presentation, was more effective winning over the hearts and minds of both the black community and the larger white culture than were the scary tactics and proclamations of the Black Panthers. The goals weren't all that different. One presentation was simply more effective in reaching them. Our own efforts will be likewise be best served by radically transforming many fundamental realities of our economic system with a program presentation that appears fairly prudent, conservative and traditional. Labor intensive, do it yourself, all organic ancient solutions may be great for impoverished rural villages of the third world, great for museum displays and and great for folks with lots of leisure time to play. They aren't a real attractive or practical solution for middle class double income families with harried schedules. My customers not only want to get a house built but also need time to be parents for their kids, go to the grocery store and have a life. Most of them won't be real excited about the prospect of spending their weekends thatching. Given the choice, a lot of those third world villagers might prefer something more like the gringos have too. About five years ago, a large and innovative builder, who recently was president of the Rhode Island Builders Association, sat next to me at the builders forum of a Northeast Sustainable Energy Association. He came to learn. He walked out in disbelief when folks that don't know anything about building, but like to talk about building, started to lay out all the politically correct measures of a sustainable building professional: "You can only eat macrobiotic food. You have to compost human feces and spread your urine around the garden". You've all heard the speech. This is a very progressive and open minded individual, but I don't think he'll be back. I know that he, and other people in the business of building houses, won't be interested if our efforts are focussed on issues and technologies that simply aren't relevant in the marketplace. Call me a reactionary cultural elitist if you will, but for the American market at least, I think it would be fruitless in our discussions of kitchen appliances to explore ranges that burn dried cow dung. It's an ancient, plentiful and sustainable fuel and may be the best ecological solution imaginable. I just know my mom will never buy one of the darn things. If these labor intensive organic building technologies were practical in the context of modern society, they would never have been replaced. In a better world perhaps they may become somewhat practical again. For now, in the developed world, our efforts will be better spent on issues that impact the other 99.999% of our building stock or on broader questions that might change the world in fundamental ways toward that better reality. My reason to raise this issue is that all our efforts have a very significant cultural and political dimension as well as the technical and ecological concerns we are trying to address. These are more significant than our technical concerns if we hope for a lasting impact from our work. Reactionary propagandists that many people unfortunately trust, like the author in the Readers Digest article that Rob Tom quoted to us, will pick up on these outmoded solutions and effectively paint the entire sustainable building movement as a bunch of crazy granola crunching Luddites. There is at least one thing we can do about popular publications like Readers Digest essentially suggesting that all environmentalists are fools. We can examine our own actions. Even if we can't win them over like Steve Lokan is doing, we don't need to encourage their antagonism and aid in their negative propaganda. With its inappropriate promotion, inadequate development and half baked technology, the less than positive legacy from the heyday of the solar industry may have done as much to postpone the acceptance of sustainable building solutions as all the negative lobbying of the NAHB. Other ventures we've embraced were less than helpful as well. We should learn from these lessons. Perhaps I am being completely rash, ignorant and unfair in my assumptions about this current fad in mulchy building technologies. If so, please enlighten me. Finally, I feel compelled to add, that it's hard to take seriously the messages over the internet that essentially condemn modern society and the advance of technology. It would seem more appropriate if the folks so inclined would send smoke signals. Onward, Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 13:25:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA09245 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:25:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA02505 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:24:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01345; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:18:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:14:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00773 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:14:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (root@hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.142]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00769 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:14:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin059.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.69]) by hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA23291; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:19:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34C78D78.661F@uidaho.edu> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 10:18:32 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: commercial building retrofit References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1422 Hi David, regarding the shading devices - it might help to design daylighting shelfs to reduce heat gain from electric lighting. Also, calculate balance point temps. to see if you really need the late fall and spring gains. Kurt Rathmann Moscow, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 14:09:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA10407 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:09:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA22322 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA04426; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:02:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:57:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03932 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:57:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from cerberus.nga.com (root@nga.com [198.68.22.250]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03928 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:57:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from nga.nga.com (nga [192.168.1.10]) by cerberus.nga.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA30683 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:02:44 -0800 Received: by nga.nga.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04782; Thu, 22 Jan 98 11:02:46 PST Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 11:02:46 PST From: jim@nga.com (Jim Roy) Message-Id: <9801221902.AA04782@nga.nga.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1423 Fred Unger wrote: [much snipped] > > Perhaps I am being completely rash, ignorant and unfair in my assumptions > about this current fad in mulchy building technologies. If so, please > enlighten me. Well, not completely. Say... 80% :-) Image is a problem for "mulchy" building techniques, because image manipulation is the way the dominant culture alternatives are being promoted in the face of overwhelming evidence of their destructivness. We can't prevent that, and you are right, we can even shoot ourselves in the foot by rubbing the facts in peoples faces too forcefully. The only way forward that I see is to lead by example. Straw bale houses are doing quite nicely here in the Willamette Valley ( where we have LOTS of grass straw ) mud is popular in the SW. I do occasionally pee in the garden. Do the green thing where you can and hope enough folks catch on in time.... > > Finally, I feel compelled to add, that it's hard to take seriously the > messages over the internet that essentially condemn modern society and the > advance of technology. It would seem more appropriate if the folks so inclined > would send smoke signals. Why do the anti-greens always try to lay this on us? Even the ludites were't against technology per se, but the negative consequences of it's application. Jim Roy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 14:20:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA10535 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:20:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA25693 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:18:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05166; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:13:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:09:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA04799 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:09:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from hil-img-3.compuserve.com (hil-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.177.133]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA04794 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:09:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by hil-img-3.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.10) id OAA18878; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:14:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:03:03 -0500 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: GBlist: Re: dehumidifiers [was: Re:Dynamic Wall Houses] To: "INTERNET:hyphen@dial.pipex.com" , GBList Message-ID: <199801221403_MC2-304B-9D46@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id OAA04795 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1424 Fellow GBlisters I am about to go over to London 1/25 to 1/28 on a business trip and have some free time Sunday, Monday day and Tues afternoon only. Any contacts or places to go in London relative to Green Buildings? I will be starting near Piccadilly Circus. My knowledge level is higher than beginner. I live in an EcoVillage (in Ithaca, NY) and have an HVAC contracting background, as well as 18 years of experience in building diagnostics, plus lots of experience in program design and implementation. Greg Thomas g_thomas@compuserve.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 15:17:32 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA11460 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:17:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA23819 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:16:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09097; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:10:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:06:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA08258 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:05:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin52.mail.aol.com (mrin52.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.162]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA08237 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:05:35 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin52.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA29800; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:10:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:10:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980122151026_547916761@mrin52> To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Abrams in Fine Homebuilding (Project Manuals) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1425 I'm not sure where the idea originally came from--maybe John talked about it when he was in Seattle for Building with Value '93--but it's a great one! Here's the spec section we use to describe the project manual. Feel free to use it if you find it appropriate to your projects. 01020 Project Manual 1. During construction, Contractor shall create and maintain a Project Manual that contains the following: a. Color photographs of construction in progress. (Record conditions at each permit inspection, and at other appropriate times to provide a complete record of locations of structural framing, wiring, plumbing and mechanical work that will be concealed in the finished work.) b. All brochures, installation instructions, etc. for any product or material used in the work. c. All warrantees and owner's manuals for products or equipment used in the work. d. Contractor's initial cost breakdown and final project costs, the Building Permit Set, one copy of final Contract Documents, with any modifications that took place during construction noted in red. 2. Contractor shall turn the Project Manual over to the Owner at final completion. Rob Harrison *** Robert Harrison Architects http://members.aol.com/rhdesign --lyrical sustainable design-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 15:28:24 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA11632 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:28:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA28904 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:27:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10520; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:21:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:17:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA09714 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:16:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from radiks.net (root@sr.radiks.net [205.138.126.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09702 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ics_7ab56 (pc-7AB-086.omhq.uprr.com [167.132.89.86]) by radiks.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA09398; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:22:05 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34C7AA59.3DFD@radiks.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:21:45 -0600 From: Tom Berthold X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: F Unger CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, nesea@nesea.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1426 Fred, Thanks for your fascinating and very well written post. I think you're right on about how a lot of popular thinkers would return us to the stone age as a solution to the environmental damage associated with modern construction techniques. There are so many alternatives to build more conscientiously, without necessarily throwing out everything high-tech. Strawbale, rammed earth, adobe, tire wall, cob, cordwood etc. are all fascinating, viable construction technologies for people with the time and personality to use them. These houses can be beautiful and have real personality and soul. But as you indicated, unless they can become cost effective from the labor standpoint they will remain on the fringe, and will only marginally effect on the overall environmental impact of the construction industry. Tom Berthold F Unger wrote: > > Friends, > > A new topic and another long post. > > I keep seeing promotion of thatching, straw bale houses, mud and straw > buildings and other techniques that sound pretty funky and primitive. > Apparently there is a revival of compostable buildings going on. Magazine > articles, books being written, workshops, etc. I don't get it. What's the > point of all this? > ... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 16:16:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA13438 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:16:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA17473 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:15:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA13560; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:09:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:05:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA13231 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:05:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ipinc.ipinc.net (ns.fta.com [205.139.102.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA13220 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:05:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from hysave (ip-port-cs3-28.ipinc.net [206.29.173.156]) by ipinc.ipinc.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA18902; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:10:48 -0800 Message-ID: <34C7B876.6C2A@fta.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:21:58 -0800 From: Russ Smith Reply-To: hysave@fta.com Organization: Hy-Save, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: commercial building retrofit References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1427 Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > David: We are about to start on a similar slightly larger food store. Some > of the items identified at this time that we will be looking at include: > > 1. ECMs (Energy Conservation Measures) > 2. weathization > 3. efficient & healthy lighting > 4. green power > 5. greywater treatment & reuse > 6. ground water heat pump > 7. alternative soft water treatment > 8. cogeneration: NG turbine (ie. Capstone) > 9. solar hot water systems > 10. vermicomposting > 11. photovoltaics > 12. architectural guidelines & controls > 13. solar hot air (ie. Solarwall) > 14. industry & government partnerships > 15. administrative upgrades > 16. roofing upgrades > 17. water conservation > 18. EIS (Environmental Impact Statement) > 19. window & wall upgrades > 20. optimizing internal heat gain (ie.compressors, people, etc.) > 21. cold outside air intake to offset compressor use > 22. zero point (over/unity) energy devices (ie.Griggs pump, Browns' Gas, etc.) > > What other obvious or interesting technologies have not yet been included? > _________________________________________________________ > Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. > - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > - college campus and office tower recofit under construction > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 > Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > ______________________________________________________ > Hello Jorg and the rest of the GB list. We have been doing energy conservation retrofit projects in supermarkets and other commercial buildings for over 14 years. The one thing all of them have in common is the fact that they are ALL different! The above items you have mentioned I'm sure may have satisfactory return on investment and may all be applicable to the site you are looking at. However------ The one BIG item you may have overlooked is the percent of the total building load that is consumed by the refrigeration systems. On average the refrigeration system in a supermarket today represents at least 30% of the total energy used and as such MUST be high on the list of areas to be up graded to the best possible operating condition. Our technologies, available to you world wide, can help you provide your clients a 20 to 30% savings when applied to the refrigeration and or air conditioning systems. We normaly see a simple return on investment (ROI) for our projects in under 2 years plus other benifits. If you would like to review application results in several different facilities, I invite you do so at http://www.hysave.com/supermarkets.html I would be happy to provide you and anyone else who may be interested with additional information on request. Sincerely, Russ Smith Hy-save Inc. http://www.hysave.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 16:46:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA13884 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:46:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA28299 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:45:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15366; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:39:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:35:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA14837 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:35:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14831 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA11126 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:40:58 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 22 Jan 1998 13:39:46 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: TECHS VS. LUDS To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA14832 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1428 Fred-- I think Jim Roy is a little more right than you are; or, to put it another way: you doth protest too much. Why do you feel it's necessary to try to blow off people who want to make labor-intensive (but low material cost), decompositional homes? I think a key to understanding your position can be found in your statement that you work for "double-income" families. And everything else you say indicates that you see a future where a solid respectable middle class--probably white, since I detect a hint of racism in your remarks about the third world--marches in lock step toward a mutually agreed upon, technologically enhanced and sustainable future. And you know, you are probably right that "your" way, which involves making everything People-Magazine-Correct, is the way to make sustainable or green building happen. I suspect you don't want to ear about people peeing (shudder) in their gardens. But I go back to my earlier point: why do you feel the need to dismiss as lunatics people who have a different vision? I think a lot of what Stewart Brand says about the need for sturdy buildings that can be recycled every generation is true, but I can see a good case being made for vernacular building with local/traditional materials/methods. We don't all have to march to the same drummer. (And actually Brand allows for that, too.) I may not want to build a strawbale house myself (we've worked a little with them, and they ARE, um, tedious and imprecisely shaped), any more than I would want to build a Victorian house. BUT I AM GLAD THERE ARE THOSE WHO DO. In fact, I submit, Fred, that if you don't feel a kind of warm glow when you see a thatched roof mud hut, you may actually be an android. (Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?) As much as I enjoy and even treasure this site, I see a tendency toward solutions that only "double-income" families can afford. I don't condemn that, because we (Jean & Jim) probably fall in that fortunate category ourselves, but I don't want to see the "counter-culturish" (for lack of a better term) folks run out of the country, either. It may just be that while your double-incomers are driving off each day in opposite directions, dropping off kids at the day care, then driving hours to jobs they don't particularly enjoy, the strawbalers are living closely together with their kids in a converted bus, doing pickup work as it comes along, as they slowly, but thoughtfully, work side by side to build their cozy little home which, rumors notwithstanding, will not in fact blow away in the next windstorm. Both these scenerios might be non-typical. Or are they? Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 17:26:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14666 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:26:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA13310 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:24:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA17995; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:18:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:12:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA17601 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:12:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17594 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:12:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.94] (ub12.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.109]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA08416; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:18:21 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:24:03 -0500 To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: commercial building retrofit Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1429 David wrote: >The building is about 8 years old, and was built as a commercial spec >building. As is typical of the genre, little thought was given to >orientation, window-placement, building envelope, lighting and mechanical >systems, indoor air quality, etc., etc. It's a box with a truss roof, >minimal attic and wall insulation, Peachtree IG double-hung windows. It is >bermed into a hillside for one story on the north. It is slightly longer >in the east-west axis than the north-south. Each of the two entries is a >vestibule with double pairs of doors. > >Heating/air conditioning is handled by 4 air-to-air heat pumps. I don't >know their coefficient of performance. I do know that their is an 800 amp >(!) electrical entrance. Current tenants note that the air conditioning is >on a lot in the summer, and that the sun causes a lot of heat gain through >the southern and western windows. > >The air-handling system is not balanced. Since we are going to reconfigure >interior spaces, we will wait until this is done to re-test and balance the >system. Currently, individual offices don't have return air - apparently >the intent was to have air return via undercut doors. I don't believe this >works. > >Several outside air feeds were never hooked up, and the duct insulation is >in bad shape. Flooring is the typical vinyl and carpet - the smell of mold >and mildew in the carpet is ghastly, especially in the corridors near the >entries, where the wet boots tread. David, I like reusing a building. It sounds like there are envelope and mechanical issues to be thought through. I have the following suggestions. If possible, I'd tighten and insulate the envelope. My experience in this type of light commercial building is that the ceiling thermal and air barrier are a bit hazy - you may have a suspended ceiling, insulation may be on top of the tile or between the trusses, the mechanicals may be located in vented attic space and duct work may penetrate the insulation layer. I'd suggest picking a plane to make the thermal and air barrier and locating all the mechanicals inside the intentionally conditioned space. I'd get rid of the air to air heat pumps and consider gas boiler or hot air for heating. I'd evaluate the cooling load and consider - reducing the load with window treatments - locating external condensors so they are shaded - using the existing heat pumps to meet it (hey, the seasons short) - replacing the heat pumps with appropriately sized, higher efficiency units I'd definitely add outdoor air and manage the pressure relations so it runs slightly negative in the winter. Locate the OA intakes so the incoming air is drawn from a location which will not bring in dust, moisture or excessively hot or cold air. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 18:10:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA15318 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:10:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA28298 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21628; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:03:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:59:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA21184 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:59:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21176 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:59:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA07912 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:04:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-47.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.175) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma007904; Thu Jan 22 17:03:37 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980122180247.006ed67c@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:02:49 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Inset "store" windows ( ! careful ! ) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1430 < -| Careful |- > "Cheap" strategy below is _not_ a good idea since egress is hampered (ever try to get one of these off quickly) in event of fire. Code officials would be all over you and so would insurers in most states, particularly in a "public" building or commercial enterprise. -------------// etc. (snip) PS, a cheap window strategy that has worked for some therapists' offices has been to screw a sheet of plexiglass over one side of the entire window frame (inside casements and bottom sashes, outside top sashes), preferably with a cushioning weatherstrip between. Minimal number of screws minimizes sound transfer and allows easy access for routine cleaning. Counterbalance weights for sashes no longer work without adjustment. Indoor storms set into the entire window jamb area can work if you have other means of ventilation. As others have described, upgraded windows will be most effective if the entire wall is insulated and gaps sealed. (etc.) David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant Berkeley, CA IAQKibbey@aol.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Environmental Building Information Services Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P.O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA bhoward2@sprynet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 21:28:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17662 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA26455 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:27:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA00746; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:21:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:17:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA00146 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:17:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA00142 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:17:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA18462; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:22:10 -0800 Message-ID: <34C7FDD9.E61D598D@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:18:02 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, M J Epko Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: composting toilets References: <1.5.4.32.19980122043328.0068ca0c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1431 I'm still in the throes of toilet tales but can add these observations. Its important that fecal matter be separated from our primarily liquid waste flow the reason is basically that body waste contains a large number of parasites and pathogens. A composting toilet at its worst is still a basic way of separating this waste whether it actually composts or not. Unless I had the means of testing or of ensuring treatment I would not use it in a garden, but then we have been suffering from well contamination from local farms and I've had it with shit in all its forms. I might become a little more tolerant as some remedies take effect. I must admit I am not that impressed after having reviewed the composting toilets that are commercially available. At this point one could probably install a biological filter for equivalent cost and be assured of better (as in waste/water quality) overall waste treatment but my emphasis is on probably as I still think the emphasis should be on separating waste and water conservation. Most commercial composting units employ conventional composting techniques i.e. bulk amendments for consistency, rotation, raking, and attempts at maintaining ideal temperature ranges. It seems that no units actually ensure that any of these crucial processes actually take place and no unit deals adequately with liquid concentrations. The Phoenix attempts secondary treatment with liquid by using a peat moss filter but if there is to be an attempt at biological treatment of urine then why not incorporate something that would ensure some results. In my less kinder moments of researching this I often think that the last 25 years of product development in composting systems has been more in market development and trying to develop some profit rather than trying to develop the product to some useful point. So much for the marketplace. But in my kinder more sympathetic moments I can only be glad that everyone is at least still around. By the way what are you going to do with the balance of your waste water. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. David F. Lambertson wrote: > . " However I will reiterate that no toilet that does not > >sustain pasteurization temperatures in the compost can make the claim that > >the compost is pathogen free, regardless of retention time. " > > Does this mean it is foolish to think about a composting toilet unless it's > kept warm? I know nothing decomposes until it reaches a certain > temperature, but can the smell be averted, covered up or whatever in the > cold? Would like some real life experience here please. It would save us a > lot to put in a composting toilet in a some-time-used cabin rather than > having to pump up hill to an existing septic system some distance away---or > to put in another. Sacie Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 21:29:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17674 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:29:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA26574 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:27:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA00806; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:22:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:18:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA00252 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:18:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from november.diac.com (root@diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA00248 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:18:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.64.42.96] (p96.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.96]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA19759 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 02:23:23 GMT Message-Id: <199801230223.CAA19759@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Job Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 19:27:15 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1432 I was our architects office yesterday, and overheard they are looking to hire someone. Their projects are very creative, artistic, and usually green influenced. Their newspaper ad copy is as follows: Architectural firm seeks computer wizard w/min 3 yrs exp in Mac/Cad construction documentation. Position req energetic team player who thrives on diverse projects, hard work, and attention to detail. Send qualifications and examples of work to: Barrett Steele Architecture, 1944 20th St, Boulder, (Colorado) 80302. (e-mail is forestudio@aol.com) Buzz Burrell Bolder Building Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 21:41:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17828 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:41:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA29968 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:40:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA01586; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:31:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA01200 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:30:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA01196 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:30:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA18747; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:36:03 -0800 Message-ID: <34C8011B.3140006F@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:31:56 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: MOHREA , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Re: composting toilets References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1433 There was the story of the farmer who in visiting a friend had to use the toilet, but restrained from doing so until he extracted a promise from the neighbour that he would return the favour the next day. There were also the farmers who would set up porta-pottis (sp?) in the roads by the fields in the hope that some traveller would have the need. A research project on sustainable farm practices looked at a farm that had been in existence for some 6,000 years. The toilet system was a diverted stream that ran initially through the outhouse, then through the animal sheds and then into furrows through the garden. A lot of cultures dealt efficiently with human waste but knew the parameters - which we are to some extent relearning in a shortened time frame. Its ironic that a culture that is trying to deal with radioactive waste cannot deal efficiently with its own shit or extract a decent return of nutrients to the earth. Perhaps this is evidence of 'culture as an artifact of the market' as David Foley so eloquently put it. Or is the market suffering a malaise of 'adjustment' John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. MOHREA wrote: > It's my understanding that the Chinese have used black soil forever in their > fields. The trick would be to ensure it is handled properly, but also that > nobody in the house is sick with a parasite or something that could be passed > on into the food and infect other family members. I know of folks who use > their dog/cat manure for compost, but same warnings apply..animals must be > worm & parasite free. It could always be used for non-produce related > growing, too. -Beth > > In a message dated 98-01-21 15:39:40 EST, flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net writes: > > << Before investing in an expensive composting toilet, check out "The > Humanure Handbook" by J. C. Jenkins. I got it through an inter-library > loan. He has been composting his family of four's humanure for 20 years > using a 5 gallon pail topped with a conventional seat and rotted > sawdust. He then raises his food with it. They're still healthy. It's > a thought provoking and humorous read. > > Keith > >> ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 22:36:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA18285 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA14776 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:35:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA04355; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:29:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:25:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA04060 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:25:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from quoin.cqu.edu.au (quoin.cqu.EDU.AU [138.77.24.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA04055 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:25:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from pkh.cqu.EDU.AU (pkh.cqu.EDU.AU [138.77.23.55]) by quoin.cqu.edu.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15234 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:30:37 +1000 (EST) From: P.Hannah@cqu.edu.au (Paul Hannah) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Toilets. Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 03:42:03 GMT Organization: Central Queensland University, Gladstone Campus Reply-To: P.Hannah@cqu.edu.au (Paul Hannah) Message-ID: <34e00f9a.83711445@quoin.cqu.edu.au> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id WAA04057 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1434 Hi, I've been reading _some_ of the hundreds of messages that flow through here -- I'm looking at building a straw bale house (well, hut really) out of town where a iron shed is currently being used for living. I'm listening with interest to the straw bale mailing list, and there's some very interesting information being passed around. Now, excuse my ignorance. My mind was just wandering and I'm wondering if I could use a LONG piece of perforated PVC pipe running down the hill with one (or maybe two) airlocks at the start to keep the odour down? Perhaps two or more runs of these pipes may be used to get the volume right. This would allow the waste to be flushed (no problem with water) in the normal way and break down/seep into the ground. So, it all seems too simple! What have I missed!! Thanks. -- Paul Hannah Central Queensland University Gladstone (+61) 7 4970 7274 P.Hannah@cqu.edu.au ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 22:56:36 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA18457 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:56:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA20970 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:55:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA05352; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:49:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:45:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA04998 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:45:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA04994 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:45:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from sover.net (usr0a39.burl.sover.net [207.136.198.139]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA04176 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:50:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34C812C8.1599ECA1@sover.net> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:47:20 -0500 From: Eric Warren X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuild List Subject: Re: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1435 Fred, Oh, there's a thousand things to say about your post, but I'll just make one point and agree with a bunch of what has been said in reply already. The point that I want to make is that the mainstream, middle class folks you talk about, and from whom you make your living are a TINY portion of the people on this planet. Most of the world's population cannot afford the lifestyle of the people who you reach by conventionalizing ecological building, nor can the Earth sustain the this lifestyle amongst the people who already live it, not to mention extending it to the rest of the population! Social inequity is an area which I hope the green building movement will bring to the forefront of its work. And, I think that the only solution is to make ecological building accessible to people who don't have the resources of that minority of people you speak about. This means developing localized technologies (which use local materials, skills, etc.) which involve great amounts of "sweat equity" or owner labor, and little in the way of high cost, high-tech, centrally produced materials which concentrate wealth amongst large, corporate entities. I guess, I'm saying that change is going to come not so much from the wealthy elite, but from the large majority of people in this world who support them. At the same time, I am glad that you do what you do. I think that we need to work from every angle, and that both reforming the conventional system and working in the margins is needed. I choose the latter and hope that people in your position can recognize the symbiotic relationship of our different approaches. To use the analogy you brought up, I don't think that civil rights movement would be where it is today if not for the work of BOTH MLK AND the Black Panthers - The Panthers stood up to the system of oppression, refusing to lie down and take it any more, providing the movement with passion and commitment. While, people such as MLK helped us all understand and have compassion for each other. These same elements have to be part of ecological change in how we house ourselves - it is very necessary to bring compassion for the planet into conventional construction, but it is also important to empower people to meet their own housing needs outside of the rules, costs, and inequities of the system. And, since I don't seem to be able to make just one point... I do agree with some of what you said - we do need to learn to separate the grain from the chaff in adopting low-tech building solutions! -Eric Warren - a crazy, granola crunching, (not quite) Luddite ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 22 23:47:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA19006 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:47:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA05829 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:46:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA07134; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:40:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:35:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA06548 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:35:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA06542; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:35:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000031856; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:40:18 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980123044238.00686f8c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:42:38 -0600 To: strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Re:Fred's thoughtful response and unreasoned reaction Cc: taveto@ibm.net Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1436 Oh honestly, Thomas Veto, enough of this nonsense. Fred's well written and thoughtful note regarding the need to speak to the masses in language they can understand, appreciate and react positively to, is right on. Your kind of language, would never convert a soul and someone like myself, who is very much on the side of sustainable building, is especially turned off, feeling at once both ashamed that you could be on my side and angered by such silliness. I am often amused and occasionally disgusted at the ability of this type of anonymous forum to bring out the worst of human nature when it comes to reasoned discussion. It is impossible to imagine that the absurd language and angry words sometimes written here could ever be spoken in person and it is clear that this type of rhetoric can only occur when the speaker is hidden from direct contract or confrontation. Pretend you are talking to us face to face and think about the reaction your words might bring. It is quite possible to present your point of view and receive an interested reaction if you simply chose to say it better, with grace. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 00:57:48 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA19544 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:57:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA22059 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:56:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA09462; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:51:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:45:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA08932 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:45:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from elbert.interrural.net (elbert.interrural.net [206.115.106.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA08928 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:45:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.115.104.91] by elbert.interrural.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37012U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA365 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:51:07 -0700 Subject: GBlist: A Procurement Adventure Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 23:01:20 -0700 From: "Anna J.Jones-Crabtree" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19980123055105843.AAA365@[206.115.104.91]> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1437 Chuck Hinckley writes... > Bureaucracies are at least as susceptible to corporate pressure as is an informed > consumer,if not considerably more so. As someone who works for one of the agencies you listed - USDA Forest Service, I have a first hand understanding of your statement. However, like you say, every convert is a step in the right direction... Consider my recent experience at ordering office partitions for our engineering group....Armed with knowledge that there existed an executive order requiring us to purchase and use recycled materials, as well as a memo from the Secretary of the USDA stating we are going to incorporate the concept of sustainability into our practices I called my friendly procurement person asking for their help in ordering remanufactured partitions. (I debated the need for these partitions in the first place but lost that battle, so I was trying to make the best of the situation.) I had already done my legwork - had my required three 'bids' and the remanufactured partitions were by a small margin the lowest cost. Boy, what a challenge was in store for me! My procurement official told me she couldn't order from the supplier I wanted becuse they weren't on GSA contract. But supposedly before we could even go to GSA we had to go through Unicor (prision industries). The idea that they were recycled was totally irrelevant to her. Two months later, after flooding my procurment official with additional documentation, so she could get waivers from Unicor and GSA we finally get to order remanufactured partitions. I go ahead and get furniture shifted in anticipation of partition arrival. But wait, instead of shipping the partitions directly to my office, they got shipped to New Orleans where the national finance center which processes the bills is located. 6 weeks late my paritions arrive, probably using more energy in transportation than had I just ordered brand new ones off of contract... Moral of the story...We may have more energy costly partitions but at least now I have a procurement official who realizes there is policy direction to buy recycled materials and a bunch of engineers who have added the word sustainability to their vocabulary! Now if only I could get my building contractors to quit giving me grief about those 'obnoxious environmental' specs I write in their contracts we'll be making progress! ;) Patience and viewing things that look like problems on the outside as hidden opportunities can go a long way. Anna ******************************************** Anna J. Jones-Crabtree, P.E. Facilities Engineer - USDA Forest Service Doctoral Candidate - Georgia Tech Grand Mesa, Uncompahgre,Gunnison NF 2250 Hwy 50 Delta, CO 81416 (970)874-6630 Fax (970)874-6698 E-mail - annajc@gj.net ******************************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 00:57:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA19548 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:57:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA22065 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:56:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA09467; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:51:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:46:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA08963 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:46:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from elbert.interrural.net (elbert.interrural.net [206.115.106.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA08957 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:46:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.115.104.91] by elbert.interrural.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37012U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAD365 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:51:31 -0700 Subject: GBlist: GBList: Paradigm Shifts Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 23:01:45 -0700 From: "Anna J.Jones-Crabtree" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19980123055105843.AAD365@[206.115.104.91]> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1438 This list does such an excellent job of bridging the philosphical with the pragmatic that I felt compelled to post this question... All of us on this list inherently know/understand the concept of sustainability. We realize that sustainability is a systems look, highly dependent upon context and that it goes beyond just the environment but right to the heart of what's our responsibility to future generations of humans... deep down sustainabiliy really is rooted in human values. I think we all understand that to do things more sustainably takes somewhat of a paradigm shift. A shift involving a more long term look at human and environmental systems. For those of us who have 'had the shift' problem solving becomes more of a process of creating alternatives than just selecting from standard solutions. Specifically, my questions to this list are twofold: 1) What was the impetus for you personally to 'make the shift'? Was there a single moment that you realized a necessary change or was if more of a gradual process? 2) Are there any tools, methods, descriptions any of you have found successful to help your clients 'make the shift' or even to understand that there is a shift to make? Have you used economic data, facts and figures about environmental degredation, discussions about future generations... My impetus for posting this question is that I'm attempting thesis research in the area of facility management decisions concerning minor maintenance. We are all aware of the enourmous maintenance backlogs that most government agencies are carrying. Usually the focus on solutions for the backlog are on finding more money. Perhaps, if we'd concentrate on the process we use to develop maintenance solutions first and funding second we could make some progress. I believe a facilty manager who understandes the concept of sustainability, can make better long term decisions about minor maintenance. Perhaps it is because they are able to see a wider range of solution alternatives to any given problem as well as see a building more as an interconnected system then individual parts which need repair. But how do you get facility managers to experience 'the shift'? I'll be happy to summarize the responses I get and repost to the list. Anna ******************************************** Anna J. Jones-Crabtree, P.E. Facilities Engineer - USDA Forest Service Doctoral Candidate - Georgia Tech Grand Mesa, Uncompahgre,Gunnison NF 2250 Hwy 50 Delta, CO 81416 (970)874-6630 Fax (970)874-6698 E-mail - annajc@gj.net ******************************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 02:38:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA20305 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 02:38:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA12419 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 02:37:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA12035; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 02:31:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 02:27:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA11689 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 02:26:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from valis.olywa.net (olywa.net [205.163.58.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA11683 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 02:26:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from chris ([207.225.237.54]) by valis.olywa.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-36370U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA4275 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:30:27 -0800 Message-ID: <004001bd27d0$b88ef7a0$0200a8c0@chris> Reply-To: "Christopher Kirk" From: "Christopher Kirk" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:29:36 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1439 Fred, I think you have some very relevant and valuable points, but here's a few things to think about. The mulchy radicals serve two important purposes: one, R&D. Two, as the compostables movement stretches the envelope, they help elongate the middle. The R&D is obvious. Let the progressives have their fun, developing new technologies. If they're on to something, great, they have a chance of succeeding in the mainstream. If they're not, chances are the idea will fail before it gets very far. The envelope is less obvious. Show the average Joe a picture of an Earthship, and they think, geez, pretty radical. Then show them a wattle-and-daub thatched roof hut, and suddenly the Earthship looks a little less radical by comparison. I think of mainstream acceptability as a sliding scale. For me, the opposite ends of the spectrum are the average suburban tract house circa 1975 at the most unacceptable end and a carefully built modern strawbale with functional patterns (but minus the cow-dung stove) at the opposite. Now, the average Joe who's never seen anything on the strawbale side of my spectrum might think the 1975 house was just fine. Let's say he hears that some people are building houses out of strawbales and thinks, woah, that's nutty. He forms a mental picture. It's not flattering. His spectrum is strawbale at the bottom and probably '75 tract house somewhere in the middle. Hey, this guy sounds like my dad... But give him a tour of that carefully-built strawbale and a tour of that tract home (and maybe introduce him to "A Pattern Language"), and ask him which house he'd rather live in, and I'd bet my left arm that 9 times out of 10 he picks the strawbale. I'll further bet most of those average Joes will go back to that 1975 house and realize, my God, the only thing this house is fit for is the front end of a bulldozer. Now these 9 hypothetical average Joes might not choose to build their own strawbale houses for whatever reasons, but they'll remember that they liked it better than the tract house. Their sliding scale of acceptability has changed. And in ten or twenty or thirty years, after the idea has been culturally assimilated, those average Joes might think nothing of choosing between strawbale and rammed earth the way their 1975 counterparts chose between split-level and ranch. (Assuming, of course, that moisture concerns don't do for strawbale what they did for geodesic domes...) As for the cow-dung stove... If someone started processing cow dung into odorless, uniform pellets, and they built an attractive, practical, affordable stove to utilize them, and they packaged them attractively with a flowery name and an endorsement by Martha Stewart, and Oprah promoted the product on her show, and the only place the words "cow dung" appeared was in very small type on the list of ingredients on the back of the package, well... your mom might still be too sensible to fall for it, but I betcha every yuppie on your block would be wrestling one of those babies out of their SUVs the Saturday after Oprah... All right, so I tend toward hyperbole. But my point is, you don't know what's just around the corner. You say that solar was a debacle in the 70s, and OK, I can see that. But with more efficient PV units, or new kinds of PVs like thin films, and the development of flywheels, solar might be the largest source of energy in the future, but it wouldn't even be a possibility without the R&D that came out of the 70s. Can't sell a cow-dung stove right now? Hey, you might. I'm not really into solar myself, but I have noticed that the slickest advertising I've seen yet for solar products comes from British Petroleum... does this suggest handwriting and wall to anyone else? And it probably isn't possible to determine at the outset which technologies will hurt the cause and which will advance it. A thatched roof probably isn't practical enough to gain widespread acceptance in the US now, but a strawbale wall might be. And maybe (probably like solar), you might think one technology is a big boondoggle, but it ultimately ends up being something fantastic. So even if some of these compostable technologies aren't your bag, well, I wouldn't be quick to judge 'em. They might help expand that envelope, or maybe, they'll actually lead somewhere wonderful. Or maybe, just maybe, I'm a little naive. Chalk it up to impetuous youth... Christopher Kirk Olympia, WA -----Original Message----- From: F Unger To: greenbuilding@crest.org ; nesea@nesea.org Date: Thursday, January 22, 1998 10:14 AM Subject: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations >I keep seeing promotion of thatching, straw bale houses, mud and straw >buildings and other techniques that sound pretty funky and primitive. >Apparently there is a revival of compostable buildings going on. Magazine >articles, books being written, workshops, etc. I don't get it. What's the >point of all this? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 03:59:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA20733 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 03:59:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA25572 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 03:57:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA14007; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 03:52:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 03:47:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA13740 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 03:47:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA13736 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 03:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00256; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:53:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip198.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.198), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd000236; Fri Jan 23 01:52:52 1998 Message-ID: <34C85A1C.58762A5E@primenet.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:51:40 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Anna J.Jones-Crabtree" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: OFF TOPIC Rant A Procurement Adventure References: <19980123055105843.AAA365@[206.115.104.91]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1440 Anna J.Jones-Crabtree wrote: > ...Consider my recent experience at ordering office partitions for our > engineering group.... My procurement official told me she > couldn't order from the supplier I wanted becuse they weren't on GSA > contract. But supposedly before we could even go to GSA we had to go > through Unicor (prision industries). ... Does anyone else see the irony here of Anna having to try and buy from the prison system before buying from the "free enterprise system?" This along with all the other ironies in her message! We have this incredible "machine" being built by our Federal Government that is funded with massive amounts of tax dollars under the guise of "reducing crime and protecting the citizenry." What they are establishing are sweat shops with a captive labor force. Where does this Government get off with this stuff and how long are we going to put up with it? I read that one out of every 156 (or so) Americans are in the prison system. This is becoming quite a large and productive work force. This seems pretty communistic to me in that they are feeding and housing these people while they work for little or nothing in order to supply the system with material goods. How do our businesses compete and what will this lead to economically? John Wilson Prescott, AZ. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 06:21:21 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA21546 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:21:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA19655 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:20:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA16910; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:14:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:09:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA16408 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:08:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA16403 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:08:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 25542 invoked from network); 23 Jan 1998 11:14:11 -0000 Received: from aj177.du.pipex.com (HELO ) (193.130.249.177) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 23 Jan 1998 11:14:11 -0000 Message-ID: <34C879AB.FE8@dial.pipex.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:06:19 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Reply-To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: [Fwd: Re: about that REALLY LONG message] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6958236FF0" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1441 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6958236FF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another misdirected reply to Mr Unger --------------6958236FF0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: owner-strawbale@crest.org Delivered-To: ft30@dial.pipex.com Received: (qmail 28935 invoked from network); 23 Jan 1998 03:10:23 -0000 Received: from sandstorm.dial.pipex.net (158.43.128.20) by typhoon.dial.pipex.net with SMTP; 23 Jan 1998 03:10:23 -0000 Received: (qmail 13374 invoked by uid 5014); 23 Jan 1998 03:10:23 -0000 Delivered-To: d#-hyphen@dial.pipex.com Received: (qmail 13365 invoked from network); 23 Jan 1998 03:10:22 -0000 Received: from solstice.crest.org (208.202.27.10) by depot.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 23 Jan 1998 03:10:22 -0000 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03236; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:04:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:02:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA02952 for strawbale-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:01:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from pip1.pipcom.com (pip1.pipcom.com [207.61.241.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA02940; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:01:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from 486 (p1dC23.pipcom.com [207.61.241.231]) by pip1.pipcom.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA25012; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:04:07 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980123031513.006be8f4@mail.pipcom.com> X-Sender: mmattos@mail.pipcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:15:13 -0500 To: strawbale@crest.org, strawbale-digest@crest.org From: Mary Mattos Subject: Re: about that REALLY LONG message Sender: owner-strawbale@crest.org Precedence: bulk I don't recall what the header was and I've already deleted it. I'm just shaking my head. However I want to respond just to the comment about criticizing technology and society, and sitting at a computer communicating on the web. I have NO PROBLEM with this! I leave my vehicle parked outside, while I visit with people all over the world. I don't use much paper... anymore. I find it so entertaining to sit at home and play on my computer, don't go out to shop or buy toys... And I find out about the neatest sustainable 'technology' via the web. I also hear about things such as the MAI, and other agreements that are definitely environmentally hostile. Through our network on the web we can spread information very quickly and we won't be snowed by the power mongers... AND a local prominent architect has chosen to build with straw. His house is awesome, not a mud hut! and his house is selling the concept like hotcakes. but heck, some people smoke. who says they have good judgement? I guess it's a case of getting in touch with your belief system and walking your talk. If you are going to be dead within a hundred years does money really matter that much? Mary Mattos Wits End Farm (Summer Camp, Horses, and ...) http://www.pipcom.com/~mmattos/ --------------6958236FF0-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 06:21:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA21551 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:21:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA19661 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:20:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA16914; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:14:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:09:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA16424 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:08:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA16409 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:08:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05714 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:14:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:14:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy6.vineyard.net(204.17.195.196) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id smab05708; Fri Jan 23 06:14:09 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Trees Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1442 I heard from some timber framer friends that the trees have announced that if the logging doesn't halt they will continue to kill one celebrity each week. At first I didn't believe it, but then I heard the same thing from Marc Rosenbaum, so I'm pretty sure now it's true. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 07:52:48 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA22186 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 07:52:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA04939 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 07:51:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA18788; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 07:46:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 07:41:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA18486 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 07:41:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA18482 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 07:41:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA19579 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 07:46:39 -0500 Message-id: <1995138@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 23 Jan 98 07:52:26 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: GBList: Paradigm Shifts To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1443 --- You wrote: how do you get facility managers to experience 'the shift'? --- end of quoted material --- In my work as a "green building" consultant, I emphasize to owners that many strategies that I will recommend (good energy detailing, durable materials, etc.) will reduce required maintenance. I link "green" with less maintenance. Here in the north country, all facility managers deal with ice dams, frozen pipes, peeling paint, etc. This gets their attention! Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 08:54:30 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA22946 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:54:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA16889 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:53:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA20317; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:46:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:42:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA19991 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:41:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801231341.IAA19991@solstice.crest.org> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:01:18 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1444 Hi, Fred-- Actually, we've had this discussion about straw bale houses. On the whole I take your side, yet I think there is a role for the "compostable" house. In our Earth Smart program here in Portland there have been over 1100 houses signed up to include some environmentally friendly materials and construction practices, while remaining main stream in appeareance, cost and livability. Yet, the media coverage for all these houses combined does not exceed the coverage for the straw bale & cob houses and eco-villages. So I must conclude there is stong public interest and an important "consciousness-raising" role for the straw-bale type of house. There also seems to be a lot of appeal in the idea of an independent house that breaks the bonds of conformity and the usual constraints that are drummed into us--"don't be different or you'll be sorry" messages. On TV, people who are building straw bale houses are clearly having fun, unlike your coke-swigging framers listening to hard rock at 110 decibels. I see a history in my lifetime of the mainstream making fun of those who want change, or even trying to discourage change with beatings or jail or worse, then a few years later, the mainstream switches and adopts the changes. So I would not be surprised to see "radical" ideas start to show up in houses. Maybe the straw bale houses are setting idealized goals for us to think about when we set our own practical goals. For example, we're not ready for a compostable house, but the idea could inspire us to think about how we could make houses easier to disassemble for renovation or reuse. Instead of gluing them together, how could we use fasteners? And straw-bale houses are not a threat. They don't take anything away from moderate change, except attention. So why rail at them? Best, Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Earth Smart Program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 09:05:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23058 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:05:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA19222 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:03:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA20840; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:58:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:54:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20549 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:53:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.176]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20541 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:53:52 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:56:44 EST To: annajc@gj.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: GBList: Paradigm Shifts Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1445 Anna, Your post is wonderful. It is exactly the discussion I have been hoping to inspire with my own recent posts. Please forward peoples responses in full rather than an edited form. The subtle nuances are of critical importance. Recognizing that time is the most limited resource we have available for bringing about the paradigm shifts that we all know are critical to the future viability of human society, your questions are far more important than all the technical discussions we could ever have. Thank you, Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 09:25:04 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23204 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA28694 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:23:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21763; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:18:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:14:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21360 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:13:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21352 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:13:42 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:18:56 EST To: jabrams@vineyard.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Trees Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1446 You read the news from ski slopes the last few weeks. No question we got a problem on our hands. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 09:33:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23331 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:33:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA00743 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:32:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22454; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:26:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:22:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22042 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:22:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ibmmail.COM (ibmmail.com [204.146.168.193]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22036 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:22:07 -0500 (EST) From: Jim_Hartzfeld@mail.ifsia.com Received: from IMXGATE.COM by ibmmail.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 8983; Fri, 23 Jan 98 09:25:59 EST Received: from mail.ifsia.com by imxgate.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Fri, 23 Jan 98 09:25:58 EST Received: by mail.ifsia.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 85256595.004F8299 ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:28:27 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: INTERFACE To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <85256595.004EB423.00@mail.ifsia.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:28:07 -0500 Subject: GBlist: Introduction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1447 As is customary on other lists, I am introducing myself as a new subscriber. I have enjoyed the spirited conversation and range of views on this list, so far. I don't have a lot of time to contribute, but I will keep reading your messages. My name is Jim Hartzfeld. I am the coordinator of the global sustainability programs of Interface, Inc., a multinational manufacturer of commercial interior products including, carpet tile and broadloom, fabrics, access flooring, specialty chemicals and installation and maintenance services. I spend my time working with all the companies at Interface to change their way of thinking about sustainability and provide tools to help them radically reduce the material and energy intensity of our operations and measure their progress. I spent considerable time working with the President's Council on Sustainable Development and the World Business Council for Sustainable Development. If there is anything I can help you with, let me know. Mostly, I hope to learn from you. All the best, Jim Hartzfeld jim_hartzfeld@mail.ifsia.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 10:17:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24299 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:17:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA11216 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:16:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24618; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:10:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:04:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24137 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:04:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24131 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:04:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA09857 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:08:40 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 00058828; Fri, 23 Jan 98 08:57:38 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:07:21 -0600 Message-ID: <00058828.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Straw houses and cultural expectations To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1448 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:03:14 EST From: F Unger Subject: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations Friends, A new topic and another long post. I keep seeing promotion of thatching, straw bale houses, mud and straw buildings and other techniques that sound pretty funky and primitive. Apparently there is a revival of compostable buildings going on. Magazine articles, books being written, workshops, etc. I don't get it. What's the point of all this?......These technologies won't seem real attractive or progressive to folks I work with. I've come to believe that I can be most effective in changing paradigms and solving global problems if I focus my efforts with regular middle class folks right in my own small town.... Onward, Fred Unger Fred: I think you've raised an important issue. I don't agree with one of the respondants, who raised the issue of racism.(Some people smell racism in ANY comment, however well intended.) I have been an active reader of the strawbale email list on Crest, and I've taken a strawbale building workshop, and worked on a small strawbale home. I have a couple comments to add. First, I agree that, to SOME people, all this experimentation with straw, thatch, etc. seems foolish and backward-looking. But to others, I think it's a great adventure, akin to my own current adventure(building a baidarka, or "skin" kayak). What bothers me is that some proponents of these techniques, most notably the magazine Joiner's Quarterly, preach that these techniques are somehow superior to conventional buildings. I don't agree; for example, using strawbales, thatch, etc. can result in TERRIBLE indoor-air quality(mold spores,etc), if they are not built correctly(and MANY people who are building with these materials are very naive about the materials' limitations). I think it's great that these experiments continue, but I'm disappointed that straw and thatch zealots seem to think they have THE ANSWER. Also, I've also noticed that, roughly speaking, people can be divided into two categories, regarding their expectations of housing.....most people seem to want a conventional home, but there seem to be a significant number who would prefer a "cabin" or "cottage", something a little funkier, full of imperfections but more attractive to them because of it. So I think there's a place for both types of construction; I just disagree that one method OR the other is THE ANSWER to all the world's problems. - Patrick, in MinnesSNOWta ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 10:42:24 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24802 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:42:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA17628 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:41:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26525; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:35:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:31:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26096 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:31:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26092 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:31:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA28876 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:36:31 -0500 Message-id: <1997493@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 23 Jan 98 10:42:18 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Trees To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1449 --- You wrote: You read the news from ski slopes the last few weeks. No question we got a problem on our hands. --- end of quoted material --- I would suggest that the problem could at least be temporarily be alleviated with some of the expertise of this group. No doubt Fred would build controlled-crushing barricades using OSB, cellulose infill, and Tyvek. On the other hand, others might just put straw bales in front of the trees.... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 10:46:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24879 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:46:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA18567 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:44:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26962; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:39:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:34:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26346 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:34:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from teal.cr.usgs.gov (teal.cr.usgs.gov [159.189.176.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26342; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:34:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from brdsmtp2.cr.usgs.gov by teal.cr.usgs.gov (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA06512; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:39:46 -0700 Received: from ccMail by brdsmtp2.cr.usgs.gov (IMA Internet Exchange 2.11 Enterprise) id 00034FE7; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:32:33 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 09:20:54 -0700 Message-ID: <00034FE7.@usgs.gov> From: FROG@usgs.gov (FROG) Subject: GBlist: Announcing - Natural Building Colloguium - June 1998 To: strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1450 *** Announcing *** 1998 Natural Building Colloquium - East June 7-13, 1998 - Dodon Farm and The Fairhaven School, Davidsonville, Maryland For Designers, Owner-Builders, Architects, Contractors, Policy Makers, Developers, Educators, Code Officials and those interested in creating sustainable natural buildings. Join us as we explore new and traditional building and design systems. The focus of the NBC-East will be the specific needs of natural building in the eastern United States and Canada: i.e., moisture, snow loads, vapor barriers, codes, finishes etc. The NBC-East format is hands-on workshops, demos and discussions - - We will actually build several structures. Topics Include: Straw-bale, Cob, Light Clay, Timber Framing, Log Construction, Cord Wood, Thatch, Cob Ovens, Masonry Stoves, Sustainable Design and Building, Photovoltaics, Plasters and Finishes, Sacred Space, Bamboo Construction, Constructed Wetlands, Baubiologue, Waste Treatment Systems, Sites, Earth Sculpture, Engineered Building Materials and other Natural, Bio / Agri based and Recycled Building Materials, etc. Presenters: Thirty outstanding natural builders and designers have been invited. We will announce those participating as they are confirmed. Please check our web site or voice mail for updates. The Site: Dodon is a family owned working farm. Its 550 beautiful acres are shared by forest, rolling fields and organic gardens. The land is home to an octagonal mud plastered straw-bale building, an off the grid Real Goods Solar Home Tour timber frame log cabin, a tipi and tobacco barns. Fairhaven School is part of a growing movement of free and democratic schools in the US. The school's principles are based on Sudbury educational philosophies. As NBC-East participants we will have the unique opportunity to help plan, create and build the physical landscape of this important educational environment. Travel: Davidsonville is 20 minutes east of Washington, DC. Washington, DC is easily accessible by public transportation. We will coordinate transportation from rail, air and bus terminals. Schedule: June 7-Sunday evening will be a time for opening ceremonies and introductions. June 8-12, Morning and afternoon hands-on workshops, technical sessions, discussions, experimental opportunities, evening presentations (a time for colloquium participants to present their projects) June 13, Closing ceremonies. Lodging: A limited number of reserved dorm style men's and women's cabins with bunk beds, indoor bathrooms and showers will be available at the Paxtuxent River 4-H Center just minutes from Dodon Farm. Camping is also available, campers will have access to the cabin showers and bathroom facilities. Cost: $625 (for cabin) $595 (for camping) includes complete colloquium program, materials, all meals, vegetarian (vegan available) and transportation to and from the farm and 4H center. For detailed price, work exchange and discount information please see enclosed application form. Opportunities to help: Volunteers, sponsors and donations of materials and supplies are encouraged. For more information, to get on our mailing list or request an application contact: NBC-East - - c/o Green Logic Design - - P.O. Box 2249 - NYC, NY 10009 212.769.6387 - - fax 732.431.0928 - - email: ketsie@aol.com www.treebranch.com/nbc/east (after February first) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 10:51:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24940 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:51:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA19695 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:49:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27594; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:43:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:39:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26958 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:39:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26954 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:39:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov (mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.26]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA20989 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:44:27 -0500 Received: by mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD27EB.E06CB3A0@mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov>; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:44:27 -0500 Message-ID: From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Anna J.Jones-Crabtree'" , "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: RE: GBlist: GBList: Paradigm Shifts Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:44:25 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1451 anna, thank you for asking. my impetus to make the shift: after the personal experience of living with a vegetarian-animal lover-activist and beginning to understand that perspective, i read the book Ishmael by Daniel Quinn (a book which irritates some people, i know, and by god i don't love it for his literary ability but nonetheless it puts our culture in perspective). it was this lesson in book form that shifted me fundamentally. i sold my car, checked out a lot of books on vegetarianism and but most importantly i changed inside and, much as i would love to, can never ever go back. since my journey developed largely through a series of thought-provoking books, i try to share these books with others who show any interest in where i'm coming from, or just share them with those who i think need these thoughts. also very important is what i learned (and try to share with others) from my vegetarian-animal lover-activist friend: an outrage and common sense approach to life. pay attention and let yourself get really mad about what you see, let yourself care about ALL of it. when you cultivate those feelings, change just happens. olivia >---------- >From: Anna J.Jones-Crabtree >Sent: Friday, January 23, 1998 1:01 AM >To: greenbuilding@crest.org >Subject: GBlist: GBList: Paradigm Shifts > > >This list does such an excellent job of bridging the philosphical with >the pragmatic that I felt compelled to post this question... > >All of us on this list inherently know/understand the concept of >sustainability. We realize that sustainability is a systems look, highly >dependent upon context and that it goes beyond just the environment but >right to the heart of what's our responsibility to future generations of >humans... deep down sustainabiliy really is rooted in human values. I >think we all understand that to do things more sustainably takes somewhat >of a paradigm shift. A shift involving a more long term look at human and >environmental systems. For those of us who have 'had the shift' problem >solving becomes more of a process of creating alternatives than just >selecting from standard solutions. > >Specifically, my questions to this list are twofold: > >1) What was the impetus for you personally to 'make the shift'? Was >there a single moment that you realized a necessary change or was if more >of a gradual process? > >2) Are there any tools, methods, descriptions any of you have found >successful to help your clients 'make the shift' or even to understand >that there is a shift to make? Have you used economic data, facts and >figures about environmental degredation, discussions about future >generations... > >My impetus for posting this question is that I'm attempting thesis >research in the area of facility management decisions concerning minor >maintenance. We are all aware of the enourmous maintenance backlogs that >most government agencies are carrying. Usually the focus on solutions for >the backlog are on finding more money. Perhaps, if we'd concentrate on >the process we use to develop maintenance solutions first and funding >second we could make some progress. I believe a facilty manager who >understandes the concept of sustainability, can make better long term >decisions about minor maintenance. Perhaps it is because they are able >to see a wider range of solution alternatives to any given problem as >well as see a building more as an interconnected system then individual >parts which need repair. But how do you get facility managers to >experience 'the shift'? > >I'll be happy to summarize the responses I get and repost to the list. > >Anna > > > >******************************************** > >Anna J. Jones-Crabtree, P.E. >Facilities Engineer - USDA Forest Service >Doctoral Candidate - Georgia Tech > >Grand Mesa, Uncompahgre,Gunnison NF >2250 Hwy 50 Delta, CO 81416 >(970)874-6630 Fax (970)874-6698 > >E-mail - annajc@gj.net > > > >******************************************** > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 10:53:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24969 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA20483 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:52:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28012; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:47:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:42:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27419 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:42:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27415 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:42:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA29730 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:47:49 -0500 Message-id: <1997675@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 23 Jan 98 10:53:37 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Conversation To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1452 Hello All - I de-subscribed from the list around Christmas and then left for a 10 day meditation retreat. When I came back I re-subscribed, but my failure to read directions and confirm ensured that I remained un-subscribed for another week or so. When I finally got back on the list, I felt as though I wandered into a different place. The tone of the discussion seemed quite different. And sorta unpleasant. Some new folks on the list, maybe. Or maybe Christmas stress. I don't feel any of our needs are served by calling each other idiots or androids. Sometimes I feel myself like one or the other, and sometimes both, but I can only make that judgement for myself. One of the basic elements of my own understanding of sustainability is diversity. Can we try that on for size right here? There ain't no right answer, and we're all stumbling towards greater understanding. We need the qualities of honesty, discernment, compassion, non-attachment. If we call each other names, one result may be that people are more reluctant to say what they really believe. I would be very saddened by this, because what I learn from is others' heartfelt thoughts, experience, and feelings. Fred (for example) said some stuff I don't fully agree with, but I admire his forthrightness, and I didn't detect a lack of openness to engage in discussion. That's what I ask of all who participate here. Thanks Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 10:58:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25032 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:58:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21806 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:57:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28499; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:51:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:47:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28086 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:47:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28075 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:47:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov (mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.26]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA21719 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:52:54 -0500 Received: by mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD27ED.0EB901E0@mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov>; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:52:54 -0500 Message-ID: From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: FW: GBlist: Trees Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 10:52:52 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1453 problem? what's the problem? i think the trees have already found a solution >---------- >From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET >Sent: Friday, January 23, 1998 10:42 AM >To: greenbuilding@crest.org >Subject: Re: GBlist: Trees > >--- You wrote: >You read the news from ski slopes the last few weeks. No question we got a >problem on our hands. >--- end of quoted material --- >I would suggest that the problem could at least be temporarily be alleviated >with some of the expertise of this group. No doubt Fred would build >controlled-crushing barricades using OSB, cellulose infill, and Tyvek. On >the >other hand, others might just put straw bales in front of the trees.... >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 11:12:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25193 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA25901 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:11:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29279; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:06:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:02:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28962 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:01:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28952 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:01:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA28852; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:07:07 -0800 Message-ID: <34C8BF30.1573AEC8@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 08:02:56 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: F Unger CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, nesea@nesea.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1454 F Unger wrote: > Friends, > > > > Finally, I feel compelled to add, that it's hard to take seriously the > messages over the internet that essentially condemn modern society and the > advance of technology. It would seem more appropriate if the folks so inclined > would send smoke signals. It might have seemed friendlier to have said that it is ironic to view messages that seem to condemn modern society...on the internet, etc. It seems a little intolerant to suggest that you wouldn't take them seriously especially in view of such a long (hard to tolerate for some) rant about something that not only has captured a little segment of the economy but seems to have captured at least paradigmatically the imagination of not a few technologists on the list and seemed serious enough to warrant a critique . Perhaps there might be a little reluctance to continuously rush onward without at least a look over the shoulder there might be something to learn and even eventually something techy enough to market John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. > > > Onward, Fred Unger > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 11:28:48 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25377 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:28:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA00716 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:27:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00223; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:21:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:17:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29685 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:17:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29681 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:17:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov (mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.26]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA24344 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:22:57 -0500 Received: by mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD27F1.41238390@mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov>; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:22:56 -0500 Message-ID: From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET'" , "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: RE: GBlist: GBList: Paradigm Shifts Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:22:55 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1455 thanks for your recommendations, marc. lessee my top chices to persuade others by include (but aren't limited to): ishmael & the story of b (quinn) another turn of the crank (wendell berry) [i've also heard that Going Nowhere by ? does the trick, haven't read it yet] others that help are vegetarian resource guide diet for a poisoned planet the living city the good life (the nearings) how to survive without a salary the independent home (potts) pilgrim at tinker creek (dillard) the road less traveled (peck) -olivia james >---------- >From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET >Sent: Friday, January 23, 1998 11:03 AM >To: James.Olivia >Subject: RE: GBlist: GBList: Paradigm Shifts > >Thanks for your response - do you want to share some of the books? My own >favorites currently are The Fruitful Darkness by Joan Halifax, and The Spell >of >the Sensuous by David Abram. > >Are you James Olivia or Olivia James? > >Marc Rosenbaum > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 12:19:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26089 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:19:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA16236 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:18:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02706; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:12:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:08:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02210 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:08:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.177]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02206 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:08:01 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO Message-ID: <7310818f.34c8cf59@aol.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:11:51 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Central Hepa Filter Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1456 There was a question a couple weeks back on central hepa filters. I just saw one this week at the ASHRAE/ARI show that looked neat, from Abatement Technologies, 1 800 634 9091. It is a bypass unit, rated at 600 CFM, with its own fan. Suggested list price is $995, contractor price $625. I don't know any more about it than that. I think bypass is a good way to go, to avoid the problems with static pressure drop, trying to make an existing blower work, etc. I would appreciate any comments on this unit, if people have experience with it. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 12:34:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26536 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:34:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA21049 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:33:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04274; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:27:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:23:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03534 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:22:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03526 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:22:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA29693 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:27:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-10.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.138) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma029627; Fri Jan 23 11:26:39 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980123122547.006e2734@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:25:51 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Sustainable Groups in UK listing (Greg Thomas) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1457 -- Trip preparation listing for Greg Thomas -- By: Bion Howard Some Key UK entities -- look up org's contact info., here... ----------------------------------------------------------------- Prepared with the assistance of "GEM" at CREST (thanks) (sorry if any of these links don't work, tested most of them...) We can prepare a listing like this for clients, upon request. ----------------------------------------------------------------- [PS -- Greg, take me with you.] ------------------------------------------------------------------ The Air Infiltration and Ventilation Centre The IEA’s Air Infiltration and Ventilation Centre (AIVC) maintains an extensive list of periodicals, proceedings, databases, literature lists, technical notes on this issue. --------------- De Montfort University Research institute at De Montfort University, UK. Contains research papers and catalogs, references, and other related materials. Current research includes wind energy, photovoltaic, cogeneration, solar thermal, and electric vehicles. -------------- BRE The Building Research Energy Conservation Unit (BRECSU) is part of the Building Research Establishment. It is an independent centre for information on energy efficiency in buildings and manages the Department of the Environment's Energy Efficiency Best Practice programme. --------------- BREEAM The BRE Environmental Assessment Method for buildings, which provides a measure of a building's effect on the environment and allows it to be judged objectively on its own environmental merits. ---------------- Centre for Alternative Technology (CAT) The Centre for Alternative Technology is an internationally renowned and award-winning display and education centre with twenty years experience, the best of its kind in Europe. ---------------- Centre for Renewable Energy Systems Technology The Centre for Renewable Energy Systems Technology (CREST), based at Loughborough University in the UK, aims to advance renewable energy technology so as to provide substantial and benign energy options for present and future generations. ----------------- The Center for Sustainable Design The Centre of Sustainable Design facilitates discussion and research about the effects of the quadruple bottom line of environmental, social, ethical and economic issues on design. This is achieved through training, education, seminars, workshops, conferences, consultancy, publications and Internet. The centre also acts as an information clearing house and a focus for innovative thinking on sustainable product development issues. ---------------- Department of the Environment Energy Efficiency Best Practice Programme Best Practice is a major Department of the Environment (DOE) programme. Its aim is to advance and spread ways of improving the efficiency with which energy is used in the UK. ---------------- Energy-Related Environmental Issues (EnREI) Research Programme The Energy-Related Environmental Issues (EnREI) Research Programme is designed to underpin the Rio commitment by identifying techniques for reducing greenhouse emissions due to energy use in non-domestic buildings. It includes some 20 different research projects, many of them in collaboration with industry. -------------- Geothermal Data for the United Kingdom International Geothermal Association There are three projects of note currently active in the United Kingdom. They are situated at: 1.Cleethorpes 2.Southampton 3.Penryn -------------- National Energy Foundation - NEF, UK charity for energy efficiency & renewable energy, manages Local Energy Advice Centres (LEAC), South Midlands Renewable Energy Advice Centre & NHER scheme. The National Energy Foundation is an independent educational charity, based at Milton Keynes in the UK. Its objective is to work for the more efficient, innovative, and safe use of energy and to increase the public awareness of energy in all its aspects. --------------- Stanford Netnews Filtering Service, Stanford University We provide a personalized USENET News, or Netnews, delivery service via email. You subscribe to the service by submitting profiles that describe your interests.Netnews articles (from newsgroups available to our local news host) that match your profiles will be sent periodically. ---------------- UK Solar Energy Society The UK SOLAR ENERGY Society is a non-profit organisation. It is a forum for all those interested in the advancement of the utilisation of the sun's energy. Members of the Society are drawn from industry, government, academic institutions, architectural and engineering practices, as well as the general public. ----------------- World Directory of Renewable Energy Suppliers & Services: The United Kingdom Contact information for renewable energy suppliers & services in the U.K. ----------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Environmental Building Information Services Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P.O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA bhoward2@sprynet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 12:57:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26861 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA27820 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:55:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05448; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:50:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:45:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05076 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:45:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05070 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:45:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA10702 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:51:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:51:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy4.vineyard.net(204.17.195.194) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma010691; Fri Jan 23 12:50:54 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Conversation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1458 Well put, Marc. May we all heed those wise words . . . John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 13:44:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27595 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:44:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA13082 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:42:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08579; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:37:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:33:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08150 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from alpha.cc.oberlin.edu (SYSTEM@alpha.cc.oberlin.edu [132.162.1.245]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08146 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:32:53 -0500 (EST) From: Motofumi.Tohda@oberlin.edu Received: from OBERLIN.EDU by OBERLIN.EDU (PMDF V5.1-8 #24033) id <01ISPV50JN7K001QUN@OBERLIN.EDU> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:38:15 EDT Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:38:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: GBlist: ventilated mullions To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1459 hi, I'm looking for companies in US who works with ventilated mullions for windows. it's a gudget which will passively let the outside air in without opening the windows. any help would be appreciated. Thanks! Moto Tohda ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 13:46:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27637 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:46:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA14022 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:45:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08942; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:40:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:36:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08421 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:35:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08411 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:35:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23877; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:40:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:40:45 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Straw Houses and cultural expectations To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: goose@olywa.net X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199801231708.MAA02228@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1460 On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, "Christopher Kirk" wrote > few things to think about. The mulchy radicals serve two important purposes: > one, R&D. Two, as the compostables movement stretches the envelope, they > help elongate the middle. I think what the "goose" said should be fairly obvious. I mean, people, there is a spectrum of things out there, very few wrong or right. Fred's comments make sense to me but we will not make change or get anywhere unless a fringe group (termed innovators by marketers) does the leap. No, thatched roofs are not the most practical or even environmental solution for the masses, but there may be for a lot of other reasons. Thatched roofs aren't right or wrong, but I would support Mr Unger if somebody said "thatched roofs will solve every body's problem". To support the goose's view, consider the R2000 program in Canada. A remarkable number of people in the US know about it, it is almost a household term in Canada and yet I beleive only 7000-8000 true R2000 homes were built! But that number belies the massive importance that the R2000 thinking did to the Canadian housing industry. Many, mnay more homes were built to R2000 or close to R2000 that were never registered, the skills and techniques that the builder learned were used on his next non-R2000 project, etc. Homeowners' envelope (as goose called it) was definitely expanded. I remember working on houses just after R2000 started -- most builders thought it was nuts, just a crazy govt supported program. Today, 14 years later, I walk through homes and condem, with the support of the developer and building inspector, any buildings that do not follow R2000 type practises. Perhaps R2000 was not at whacky in 1984 as a thatched roof is today, but it was almost as whacky as straw bale is today. Many of the innovators will pass away (as double envelope builders did) or never catch on (as I expect thatch not to), but there are many innovations out there: grey water, off grid homes, etc., that stand a good chance of going mainstream. They only will if we do not discourage "weidos, wacky" etc people Signed, a decidely normal, mainstream guy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 14:53:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28475 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:53:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA03990 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:52:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13125; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:46:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:42:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12779 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:42:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from hil-img-5.compuserve.com (hil-img-5.compuserve.com [149.174.177.135]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12775 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:42:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-5.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.10) id OAA04296; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:46:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:45:43 -0500 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: GBlist: Sustainable Groups in UK listing (Greg Thomas) To: "Bion D. Howard" , "[unknown]" Message-ID: <199801231446_MC2-306F-F10B@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id OAA12776 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1461 Thanks Bion, Maybe there is a eco-tourism business opportunity here. Green Building Geeks on vacation. I seem to remember Marc R. showing up in Ithaca while on a trek. I'll write if I can get connected. Later Greg (posted to list for entertainment value) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 15:15:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA29373 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:15:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA11028 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:14:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14255; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:08:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:04:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13913 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:04:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.continet.com (falcon.continet.com [206.58.168.254]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13907 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:04:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from jan ([206.58.186.154]) by falcon.continet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-37968U4500L350S0) with ESMTP id AAA104; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:14:33 -0800 From: "Jan Fillinger" To: , Subject: Re: GBlist: ventilated mullions Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:09:30 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BD27F7.C1F1DA20" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <19980123201432456.AAA104@jan> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1462 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BD27F7.C1F1DA20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know of a kind that is called a "trickle ventilator", made by Titon Inc. Though, company literature shows it used at the head sash of the window, not in a mullion. Maybe you can work with the company on a type which would permit an application more suitable to your needs. I found the information in Sweet's Catalog. Company info is: Titon Inc. P.O. Box 6164 South Bend, Indiana 46660 (216)271-9699 Fax (216) 271-9771 Jan - > From: Motofumi.Tohda@oberlin.edu > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: ventilated mullions > Date: Friday, January 23, 1998 9:38 AM > > hi, > > I'm looking for companies in US who works with ventilated mullions for > windows. it's a gudget which will passively let the outside air in > without opening the windows. > any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks! > > Moto Tohda > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ------=_NextPart_000_01BD27F7.C1F1DA20 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Pbsustain@aol.com = <Pbsustain@aol.com>
To: = ecicog@ia.net <ecicog@ia.net>
Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org = <greenbuilding@crest.org>Date:=20 Saturday, January 31, 1998 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: = GBlist: siding=20 & other materials

Phil Bailey SustainAbility = had=20 many helpful reference suggestions.Thanks. We=20 are looking for ideas & experience in re-using, re-cycling or = composting=20 scraps of particle bd or mdf.  What=20 happens to formaldehyde in composting? Any=20 re-manufacturing possibilities? That might be feasible where we=20 are? We=20 are a non-profit waste reduction group on Long Island NY with an = on-farm=20 composting operation already in effect. Appreciate=20 your thoughts.   Carol=20 Lutker, Association for Resource Conservation  (516 261-4957.=20 = ______________________________________________________________________ = This=20 greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST = Environmental=20 Building News and Oikos For = instructions send=20 e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org.=20 = ______________________________________________________________________=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01BD3026.22549160-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 23:54:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07732 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:54:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA13132 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:53:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA26123; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:47:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:42:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25755 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:42:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25744 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 23:42:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29085; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:47:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-074.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.74), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd029062; Mon Feb 2 21:47:37 1998 Message-ID: <34D6A118.A1FFCBE7@primenet.com> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 21:46:16 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Re: Salt-free water softener (was Hard Water Conditioning) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1723 Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > John: I have no intentions of witholding information on successful > healthy or green products. I have just responded to inquiries privately > until it gets too many to answer on an individual basis.I did not mean to > leave you out. But how should I know of your (or anyone else's interest)? > > Anyone interested in exploring the same salt-free water softening device > that we are satisfied with, based on the previously noted criteria and > comments, can simply inquire from the well informed Cc person above. Dear Jorg, Let me first say that you are my green builder idol and I certainly wouldn't cast any negative dispersions to anyone bearing such credentials. In fact, you should note I suggested my confusion might be due to your wanting to maintain your high standards by not getting involved in a commercial way. I certainly would never suggest you were holding out on any of us or that you aren't making a great effort to "spread the green word." I have been following "discussion" regarding hard water for days now and assume you read the same things I do in this regard. I didn't think there would be any question as to the interest regarding this subject. But, since there is, I certainly feel there are enough of us out here that would like the answer to this question. All this said, I have received several emails asking if I ever found out exactly what the product you use for water treatment is. I did send email to Brian Ward and have not as yet received a reply. So Jorg, I assure you there are enough people on this thread that feel the band width would be well spent reading about the name, the manufacturer, where one might acquire this device and finally any comments you may have regarding it. I humbly request you take up the gauntlet and answer this inquiry personally and put all these inquiring minds to rest. Again, let me thank you in advance and express my appreciation for your participation and valuable contribution to this thread. Best Regards, John WIlson Prescott, AZ. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 3 01:37:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA10283 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 01:37:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA09390 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 01:35:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA00039; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 01:29:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 01:25:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA29745 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 01:25:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA29740 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 01:25:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA02055; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:30:51 -0800 Message-ID: <34D6B8B7.5F49BC53@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 22:27:04 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: recycled products Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1724 I've been trying to assess the significance of recycled products as a material base for construction products. There have been requests for information on such products on the list as of late so I thought I take this opportunity to pose some concerns. My experience dates from developing recycling programs in our region and researching the end manuf. or remanufacture of the product. Those experiences quickly developed into concerns about the process of remanufacture and the social and environmental implications of those processes as they were developing. The problems of incipient activities is that they are not always ideal but often establish the pattern for subsequent activities. Plastic recycling was recently made notorious by a fire at a facility in Hamilton, Ontario. The fire burned 400 tonnes of pvc. Some of the consequences (gathered from an Alternatives article: Vol24#1) are local soil levels as high as 64,000 parts per trillion TEQ. The region has warned parents not to let children to play on lawns and a ban was imposed on the eating of locally produced vegetables. As the city was completely covered in the resultant smoke and fallout you can imagine the potential for both immediate and long term resident health effects. Every recycling activity has spawned similar problems as contaminants bound in the original manufacture have increased potential for contamination. The concern or question I want to raise is how viable/valuable is the remanufacture or use of remanufactured goods if such practices contribute to their initial manufacture and is remanufacture any qualification of a 'green' product simply because it contains a recycled element. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 3 08:33:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA18852 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:33:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA21457 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:32:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09264; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:24:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:19:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA08975 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:19:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA08970 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:19:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA04498 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:24:13 -0500 Message-id: <2121156@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 03 Feb 98 08:30:05 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #52 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1725 --- You wrote: Whoa there Marc. Sorry for my shorthand, but I did not mean due east, I meant 30 degress or so off south, and as much as 45 deg (although my whole message expressed suprised that this could be so). The jist of my message was the east of south was better than west of south. I guess it could have been taken out of context. and But now run one of the many solar packages out there and do an hour by hour analysis, and for my region, and for Idaho, an east of south window (instead of West of south) will do better. I would not be surprised if similiar results were found in many climates with less than ideal solar conditions. --- end of quoted material --- I did misunderstand John, and thought he meant due east. I agree E of S beats W of S, especially because of cooling season effects. I ran a house I had designed years ago (see FHB #104) in Suncode, for Burlington VT and Concord NH, and I ran due south and 45 E of S. This is a very superinsulated house with mostly south side glazing - when I simulated I just cranked the whole house east 45 degrees. In Burlington, 45E adds 5 % to the annual heating load, and 12 % to the annual cooling load. In Concord, the increases are 7 % and 11 %, respectively. Not a big difference to be sure, but not an improvement, either, at least in my cold, somewhat cloudy climate. Dunno about John's climate or about Idaho (never even been in Idaho!) Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 3 09:03:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA19650 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:03:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA28275 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:02:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10252; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:48:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:43:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09912 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:42:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09907 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:42:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA70598; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 06:47:12 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 06:47:11 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: cneurath@northnet.org Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: best windows In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1726 Further to the comments of below, another reason not to use triple glazing is the weight of the glass especially in larger windows, during installation. In addition there are more hermetic seals prone to possible failure. This is based on experience in the field. Re: low U values, the best off-the-shelf window commercially available = .083. The lowest u-value in our home is .06 for a prototype window. ****************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 RCMathis1@aol.com wrote: > Why buy the weight of triple pane when you can get (essentially) the same > performance from a good low-e, double-paned unit? I realize that in the FAR, > FAR north you may want windows with extremely low U-factors (<0.25) > > On another note, I expect that there are SOME severe northern climates where > very clear but VERY low U-factor glazings (<0.15) would really pay off. That > is why there has been so much research on vaccum glazings and other technologies. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 3 11:33:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24626 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA08808 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:31:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19707; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:18:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA19134 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:18:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19126 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:18:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id KAA0000006846; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 10:24:13 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980203162629.006c5040@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:26:29 -0600 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , GreenBuilding Listserver From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Salt-free water softener (was Hard Water Conditioning) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1727 Ditto John's dilemna. See below. Maybe Brian Ward is too busy or gone for the time. Sacie Lambertson > >I have been following "discussion" regarding hard water for days now and assume >you read the same things I do in this regard. I didn't think there would be any >question as to the interest regarding this subject. But, since there is, I >certainly feel there are enough of us out here that would like the answer to this >question. > >All this said, I have received several emails asking if I ever found out exactly >what the product you use for water treatment is. I did send email to Brian Ward > and have not as yet received a reply. So Jorg, I assure you >there are enough people on this thread that feel the band width would be well >spent reading about the name, the manufacturer, where one might acquire this >device and finally any comments you may have regarding it. I humbly request you >take up the gauntlet and answer this inquiry personally and put all these >inquiring minds to rest. > >Again, let me thank you in advance and express my appreciation for your >participation and valuable contribution to this thread. > >Best Regards, >John WIlson >Prescott, AZ. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 3 11:49:13 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25067 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:49:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA13370 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:47:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21093; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:42:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:35:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA20219 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:34:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from saclink2.csus.edu (saclink2.csus.edu [130.86.82.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20208 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:34:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802031634.LAA20208@solstice.crest.org> Received: from PC-ANTHRO-04.mnh.csus.edu by saclink2.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA285424026; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:40:26 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "PE" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 08:17:48 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: recycled products Reply-To: sac28787@saclink.csus.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1728 John, as you must know, PVC is a nasty substance when being made: vinyl is deadly, and Cl doesn't improve it any. Recycling such things is like recycling spent bullets from the St Valentine's Day Massacre. Eniviro folk have stressed reduction first and reuse second for reasons like those in your example. There seems, on this 'green' list, a regrettable tendency to scoff at any reduction in space or materials use and at reuse of housing. Pet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 3 12:40:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26533 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:40:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA29260 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:39:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23757; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:33:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:27:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23300 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:26:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23294 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:26:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA09272 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 11:31:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-33.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.161) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma009089; Tue Feb 3 11:29:35 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980203122842.006d4c60@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 12:28:45 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Passive Solar Orientation Issue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1729 Passive Solar Orientation Issue (Bion Howard, comments) Relevant to the issue of passive solar building orientation in Northern latitudes, there is a way you can evaluate this using your choice of software packages. Simply code in your building design then "rotate" it by changing the solar wall's orientation in the input files, and compare the results. You may find: 1. light weight buildings (suntempered, no extra thermal mass) respond more to off-axis orientation; but their temperature swings -- hence comfort -- will also be a function of insulation levels, window areas and therm-optical properties, and desired temp set points in conditioned spaces. 2. high-mass, or "mass-walled" buildings (log, concrete masonry, adobe, SIP and strawbale) will tend to exhibit less sensitivity to orientation effects when all else is held equal. SIP and strawbale walls have integral thermal protection and somewhat more heat capacity than typ-stick framing, and would produce a thermal mass behavior in between frame and high-mass brick&block. 3. don't ignore deviation (can I say this here?) -- if the building is oriented "15 deg. East of South" (rotated eastward from a geographic equatorial bearing in the Northern Hemisphere) be SURE you first have corrected for magnetic deviation specific to your area! This can range from 0 to +/- 12 deg. bearing in some areas (DC & Maryland are 7 deg. to 8 deg, for example) 4. Don't panic. In the National Solar Data Program, the "worst" passive solar house, located in Iowa, had a 42 deg off axis orientation and still saved ~28% on its annual heating bill. Where this beast came back to haunt the occupants was during Fall and Spring, but they countered with movable shades and water tubes. For comparison, the better performing NSDN homes (and most later SERI.nrel "Class B" homes were built within a +/- 20deg. orientation "window." Observation: off-axis passive houses need more 'active' occupants to cope with comfort anomalies... But, how can I tell what it may do to energy use and comfort? ------------ Passive solar computer programs we have used (depending on job scale and at what stage of design process we get involved with project...) include: Energy-10 NREL, (V1.2 just released) WinGuide * Solaequis Software MicroPass/CALPAS Berkeley Solar Group Note: * has a special visual basic tool for orientation-testing a home... For quite complete information on energy computer tools, try: which was recently upgraded with a search tool for finding just the right application to review. (US DOE, author Dru Crawley) What we do -------------- When builders or DIY's have us look at plans, sometimes it is too late to have much influence over orientation. In any case, we do our best to come up with a balanced systems-approach to make the building (ten'hut) be all it can be where ever it is. If we are quite fortunate, the final layout of the building footprint has not yet been made (this happens more with individuals or architect clients, than with builders). But in this highly competitive market (Mid-Atlantic) builders are now increasingly fighting for smaller parcels of land, in-fill plots, and facing more "smart growth" initiatives, which ironically may have a perverse incentive on "sun-rights" for residential parcels. This is because land planning may be placed in the hands of the politicians, not land planners who are beginning to wake up to solar and green building ideas after a >20 year battle. So, generally we focus on how to make the overall building work better within the limitations imposed on the project -- we almost never have the luxury of being involved from the beginning. "Ener-sultants" tend to get calls to fix what is already broken. ~~> Thanks, Bion ------------------- thread ----------- >While I think it is appropriate to "turn" your house as much >as 15 degrees towards the East to catch the early morning >sun, I believe any further than 15 degrees is not a good >idea. Thanks for the reply and your concern............ I know my reply to the John Staub post sounded like I was now going to turn the house due east to catch the morning sun, but that was not my meaning of course... And yes.. I ve seen other references to the desirability of turning 15-20 degrees off of true south to the south-southeast without incurring too much in lost solar benefit and I think you're right that 15 would be more prudent. Thats what I'll probably end up doing to lessen the divergence from the natural slope of the land that a true south orientation would... ---------------- snip ------------- | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 3 12:48:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26712 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:48:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA02044 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:47:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24339; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:41:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:34:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23818 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:34:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo29.mail.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.157]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23810 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:34:37 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4STYa29310 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:34:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:34:09 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Potable Hot Water in Baseboards Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1730 Anyone know the latest on whether it's okay/recommended/code- compliant/otherwise-kosher to use potable hot water (e.g. from a domestic hot water heater) for space heating (e.g. in baseboard heaters and/or radiant floor tubing)? Thanks in advance. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 3 12:59:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26960 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:59:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA05856 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:58:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25405; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:52:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:45:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24640 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:45:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from saclink3.csus.edu (saclink3.csus.edu [130.86.82.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24634 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 12:45:43 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802031745.MAA24634@solstice.crest.org> Received: from PC-ANTHRO-04.mnh.csus.edu by saclink3.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA027738281; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:51:21 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "PE" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:28:44 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: East-facing windows Reply-To: sac28787@saclink.csus.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1731 Since it seems universally accepted that south- or southeast-facing windows are Better, look sometime at Mesa Verde's Cliff Palace. One ranger there admired how the Anasazi violated solar dogmas with utter success. (Ranger talks in natl parks began with the century at Mesa Verde and are discontinued at century's end for 'lack of money,' as GDP and homelessness both reach records...) Heating that thermal mass has its points... Pet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 3 13:51:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA28968 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA24386 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:49:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28770; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:44:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:38:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA28130 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:38:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from cerberus.nga.com (root@nga.com [198.68.22.250]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28117 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:38:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from nga.nga.com (nga [192.168.1.10]) by cerberus.nga.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA09087; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 10:43:18 -0800 Received: by nga.nga.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15985; Tue, 3 Feb 98 10:43:21 PST Date: Tue, 3 Feb 98 10:43:21 PST From: jim@nga.com (Jim Roy) Message-Id: <9802031843.AA15985@nga.nga.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, sac28787@saclink.csus.edu Subject: Re: GBlist: East-facing windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1732 > From: "PE" > > Since it seems universally accepted that south- or southeast-facing > windows are Better, look sometime at Mesa Verde's Cliff Palace. > One ranger there admired how the Anasazi violated solar dogmas > with utter success. > (Ranger talks in natl parks began with the > century at Mesa Verde and are discontinued at century's end for 'lack > of money,' as GDP and homelessness both reach records...) > Heating that thermal mass has its points... Pet Makes me wonder.... .... what IS the performance of those dwellings? Just because of the location - essentially underground - they must ride pretty close to the average air temp. How much did they gain with those nice tight rock walls. .... how do you suppose those structures would have perform with a little glass? Jim Roy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 3 19:09:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA01932 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:09:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA05315 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 18:18:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14036; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:08:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:02:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13515 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:02:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13509 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:02:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.6] (iplink6.crocker.com [205.246.4.6]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA18193 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:17:18 -0500 X-Sender: brucecol@crocker.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 17:12:12 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Foley's dilemma Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1733 David, >We'd like the paycheck, but that's a side issue. If we walk away from the >job, they'll build anyway. With our involvment, things will be better, but >we we're going to have troubled consciences. If house size is terminally equated to status and their place in the world .. it may be time to find another client (or to redefine your personal objectives). If it is not, then take the job if the people feel like they will be good to work with. Everyone needs to be moved a little or a lot towards elemental frugality.... and it doesn't happen in one big step. So ... as Terry and John have said examine their NEEDS with them. You'll probaly end up saving them money and earning your design fee right there. If you show them even the tip of an attractive "ice berg" they will be inclined to look further for themselves later - even after you have finished your job. I don't agree that you should push every available "green" strategy at them. That might be a turn-off. Take their measure, and push them a bit. But taking it too far in one go is rather more likely to confuse them.. probably give them a product that they can't manage after you've left. That will confirm their view that "green-ness" is a crock. Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 3 19:11:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA01998 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:11:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA17247 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:10:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA20695; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:04:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:00:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA20364 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:00:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.storm.ca (root@storm.ca [207.245.225.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA20359 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:00:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from storm.ca (storm03p55.storm.ca [207.245.228.183]) by mail.storm.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA08149 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:05:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34D7B090.5A9F0275@storm.ca> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 19:04:32 -0500 From: Ray Doucette Organization: Earth homes Canada (WWW Info Center) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: alternative home's Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F13E78FBD495AEF41A976243" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1734 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F13E78FBD495AEF41A976243 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi there all I'm new to this group I'm located in ottawa and would like any and all in formation that you would like to share with me about 1) Rammed Earth 2) straw bale 3)stack wall 4) wind power generation 5) solar power generation i'm availuating these as possability's for a home i'm designing/building for my self in eastern ont area --------------F13E78FBD495AEF41A976243 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Ray Doucette Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Ray Doucette n: Doucette;Ray org: Earth Homes Canada adr: ;;;Ottawa;Ont,;;Canada email;internet: ray@storm.ca x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------F13E78FBD495AEF41A976243-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 3 19:17:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02122 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:17:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA18536 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA21392; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:09:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:05:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA20778 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:05:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA20774 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:05:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sA1-b13.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.174]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id TAA06137 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:11:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34D7B118.8D5@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 19:06:49 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Foley's Dilemma Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1735 David, For my two cents worth of advice and clearly that's all it's worth, do the job! Do the best you can do with the budget you have and the criteria they are imposing and wow the pants off of them. Turn them into your best sales tool ever. Give them every opportunity to size down, but don't cram it down their throats. Is the budget large enough to do a good job, maybe not everything you would want, but enough to make you feel that you've made progress? You may find that a little compromise now gives you a lot more clout with future clients that this job will bring you. It doesn't sound like the issues are all that huge in the first place. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 3 19:27:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02411 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:27:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA21215 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:25:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA22038; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:16:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA21718 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:15:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA21713 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:15:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.82] (uc17.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.82]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA09158; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:21:43 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980123055105843.AAD365@[206.115.104.91]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:15:12 -0500 To: "Anna J.Jones-Crabtree" From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: GBList: Paradigm Shifts Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1736 >This list does such an excellent job of bridging the philosphical with >the pragmatic that I felt compelled to post this question... ... >Specifically, my questions to this list are twofold: > >1) What was the impetus for you personally to 'make the shift'? Was >there a single moment that you realized a necessary change or was if more >of a gradual process? > >2) Are there any tools, methods, descriptions any of you have found >successful to help your clients 'make the shift' or even to understand >that there is a shift to make? Have you used economic data, facts and >figures about environmental degredation, discussions about future >generations... > >I'll be happy to summarize the responses I get and repost to the list. > >Anna Anna, In my experience, your questions are profoundly deep. Although I have had moments of epiphany, when something came clear, I have had to learn the same lessons over and over again. Sometimes in different ways, sometimes the same way. My path has been erratic and roller-coastery. I've worked with a fair number of buildings and grounds and health and safety officers over the years. I'm a member of the NYS Superintendents of Buildings and Grounds Association. My experience with building managers is they do things for different reasons. Some small fraction are pioneers. They get out there and do the best they can, tackling whatever catches their attention - integrated pest management, cleaning program management HVAC maintenance. A bit larger fraction gets motivated when something goes drastically wrong - the buildings closed for three days because of an incident in the portion of the building undergoing renovation, or a tenant moves out, or there's an ice flow down the inside wall of the building. Then they take action (unless they are prevented by an instituional barrier). Often in the resolution of building related problems, I find that the folks whose job is to keep the building working, have a good idea what's wrong and what might fix it, but the folks who write the checks do not feel comfortable enough to sign off on it. So they end up paying me to help them feel like they can defend the check if they have to. Lastly, there's a fraction who don't change anything until they have to by regulation or policy imposed by government or upper management. When I work with building managers, I follow Hollis' first rule of social casework - start where the client is. I, myself, am powerless over others. I can only understand where they are and try to help them find a next step. So I listen to what they are saying. Then I ask about what I think they are really saying to be sure I understand. The better I understand, the more effective I can be. Then I tell them what I notice, what I beleive and what I need from them. I have found that communicating in this way increases the chance that something will change. My understanding and writing a recommendation has little chance of solving or preventing problems in the long run. I recall once finding a beautiful master plan in the town hall of a little New England village. It was written several years earlier by Ian McHarg. None of the recommendations had been implemented. It was only years later that I understood that the same thing happens to my reports. That my work did not solve problems. Changes in the people and changes in the institutions can do it. The changed people must develop a method of creating an institutional memory. I like the sound of the work you are doing. I would like to hear how you fare with it. I believe I can gain quite a lot from your experience. Please stay in touch. - Terry Brennan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 3 20:55:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA04340 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:55:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA13082 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA27531; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:48:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:44:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA27183 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:43:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA27177 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:43:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.25] (blf25.acadia.net [205.217.217.25]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA03407 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:49:27 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:47:26 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: recycled products Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1737 John Salmen raises some excellent points, among them: is a material "green" merely because it contains recycled content? "And remember: our GreenBlock (TM) concrete blocks are Earth-Friendly (TM) because they contain RECYCLED plutonium! So every GreenBlock (TM) you buy will Save the Earth (TM) that much faster!" Recycled or not, perhaps there are molecules we just shouldn't make? Materials we shouldn't use? Buildings we shouldn't build? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 3 22:33:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA08484 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:33:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA07606 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:31:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03324; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:25:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:21:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA03017 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:21:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03009 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:21:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA22144 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 19:28:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 3 Feb 1998 19:25:20 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: REUSE To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id WAA03014 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1738 Feb 01, 1998 USE LESS STUFF CONTEST is for children ages 6-12. Students are encouraged to enter waste-reduction ideas that they've used at home, school, or within their communities. A panel judges the entries based on originality, practicality, and waste-saving potential. Four regional finalists win Rollerblade in-line skates; one grand-prize winner receives a new bicycle. Contact: The ULS Report, Box 130116, Ann Arbor MI 48113 OR 313-668-1690 OR 313-930-0506(FAX) OR http://www.cygnus-group.com OR uls@cygnus-group.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 01:01:08 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA10658 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 01:01:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA13454 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:59:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08847; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:53:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:48:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA08414 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:48:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA08409 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 00:48:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (usr34.cwo.com [207.173.173.44]) by mail.cwo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25449 for ; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:55:56 -0800 Message-Id: <199802040555.VAA25449@mail.cwo.com> Reply-To: From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: BIG! Green? Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 21:34:56 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1739 David, I sympathize with your dilema. You will probably get a lot of posts that tell you to refuse the job (perhaps including allegories to the Nazis who were "just followinbg orders."); but not from me. There are creatuive ways that you can look at the situation and help to create a more sustainable outcome. I recommend that you design the building in a modular way - kind of the reverse of designing so that you can add on. Allow them an easy way to close off parts of the home, isolated from the operation of the heating and cooling processes for the rest of the building. They may never choose to operate it that way, but again, they may. If you do not give them the option, they can't. Secondly, if you design this building to last (one of the real sustainable questions), the next occupants will be able to easily partition it into a couple reasonably sized dwellings. The ducts for space conditioning would already be ready for two HVAC plants. The wiring should be set up so that the two units could easily be on separate breaker boxes (this can easily be done by positioning the current panel on what would become a "common" wall. Nehemiah Stone p.s. I would love it if you could keep the list informed on how this project develops. ___________________ David M. Foley wrote about "theory versus practice" (snip) ... we have new clients, a retired couple who want a house designed. They are very nice folks who have progressive beliefs, support good causes, etc. But boy! do they have a lot of stuff and boy! do they want a lot of space! They said that they "can't possibly imagine" living in less than over 3500 square feet, not including two-car garage, tool shed, deck, etc. So no matter what, this house is going to consume needless amounts of resources. We'll do what we can to make it energy-efficient, water efficient, healthy, durable, and such, but the budget will be chewed up by raw space requirements before we can do anything close to state of the art. (snip) ... Thanks for any views you can offer. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 06:52:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA13603 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:52:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA10760 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA17361; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:45:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:41:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA17108 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:41:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA17104 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:41:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA05279; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:46:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 06:46:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy14.vineyard.net(204.17.195.204) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id smaa05268; Wed Feb 4 06:46:47 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley), greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: Re: GBlist: recycled products Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1740 David says: > perhaps there are molecules we just shouldn't make? >Materials we shouldn't use? Buildings we shouldn't build? Reminds me of a story James Cramer tells, in his book Design + Enterprise, about an extraordinary engineer named Fazlur Khan. In the 50's, the era of urban renewal and the beginnings of the interstate highway sysstem (which would eventually determine the course of our future), highway engineers at the Dept. of Transportation had a scheme to carve up D.C. with concentric rings of inner, middle, and outer beltways. As long as they could keep things moving the effect on the city was irrelevant. The inner beltway was to dive under the Lincoln Memorial and come up for air among the cherry trees at the Tidal Basin. The bridge needed for such a site was clearly something special - even the government transportation experts were awed by the challenge. So they turned to Khan for a solution. When he proposed his solution, Khan was clearly not thinking about recognition, prestige, or money. "Don't build it at all," he proposed. "it's a bad idea." So his greatest monument in our nations' capital is something he never designed. Nothing marks the spot where his courage, integrity, and civic mindedness kept this beautiful place from being vandalized at the expense of future generations. He got no recognition, prestige, or money, but he held onto something more valuable. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 09:00:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA14855 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 09:00:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06773 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:59:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA22750; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:53:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:47:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA22402 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:47:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA22398 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:47:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id FAA16996; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 05:53:10 -0800 Message-ID: <34D871B5.FD6F92A4@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 05:48:38 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Compost Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1741 I found the following in a rather good description of composting toilets at http://weber.u.washington.edu/~robh/Courses/ESC311/1997/Malcolm/Malcolm.htm In Mali people defecate into hollow walls filled with earthen urns so that it can be removed in times of fertilization needs So, what would be the initial energy gain of a composting wall - and then what would be the subsequent insulative value of humus. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 10:20:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15938 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:20:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27566 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:19:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28023; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:13:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:09:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27463 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:09:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27455 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:09:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA35016; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:12:55 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 08:12:54 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: cneurath@northnet.org Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Dorwin windows In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1742 You said:"Just yesterday I talked to one of the leading fabricators of HeatMirror glass units about their latest products. Alpen Inc., in Boulder Colorado, has tried putting two film layers between outer glass panes to get 4 panes surrounding 3 air spaces. The film layers have low-e coatings, the air spaces can be the optimum for energy efficiency of 1/2", "warm-edge" spacers can be used, and krypton or argon gas can be used to fill the spaces. The resulting R value is 14 which is truly amazing compared to the R of 2 or 3 possible with even the best double pane glass." ******************************************************************************* There is nothing amzing in this since R-12 (Center of Glass) off-the-shelf windows (of similar configuration) have been available for some time. We have several in our own home (built in 1993) and continue to specify them into other projects in appropriate applications. Alpen may find our 5-glazing R-17 (COG) window of interest. It has 4 low-e surfaces ****************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 10:53:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16381 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:53:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA07298 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:51:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00513; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:45:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:42:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29895 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:41:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29891 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:41:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA18780; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 07:47:01 -0800 Message-ID: <34D88C8F.185105FD@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 07:43:11 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: recycled products References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1743 David M. Foley wrote: > Recycled or not, perhaps there are molecules we just shouldn't make? > Materials we shouldn't use? Buildings we shouldn't build? > I think this is an important point that in the development of a greenbuilding ethics -that there would be materials or processes that would not be used. The material would be defined by its risk potential to cause harm either in manufacture, use or reuse. Some would argue that this would be impossible to define as all materials carry an element of potential harm but I think the defining element would be a categorical definition of harm and degree of harm potential that relates to our current knowledge base and the potential abilility of a user to make safer substitutions. In other words there would be a potential for liability if a material was used when it could either be shown that the usage was either unecessary (needlessly causing harm) or a safer material could have been used. An example would be the use of polyethylene as opposed to pvc in piping where plastic piping is required. Risk assesment is essentially statistical and if those involved in liability issues were to define a high risk material list based on existing data and this list could be applied to buildings as a grading procedure this would have the effect of both adding a new dimension to product development as well as defining some other notion of worth of a finished product. The empirical health data that results from the pvc fire I mentioned would form part of the data relating to the risks of pvc usage. The cumulative affect of such data would be form a larger perspective of the health and economic end costs of a materials usage. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 11:13:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16848 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:13:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA13627 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:11:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02808; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:05:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:00:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02013 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:00:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01994 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:00:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA14686 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:04:26 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 000593A2; Wed, 4 Feb 98 09:54:16 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:03:39 -0600 Message-ID: <000593A2.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: re: alternative building systems To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1744 Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 19:04:32 -0500 From: Ray Doucette Subject: GBlist: alternative home's hi there all I'm new to this group I'm located in ottawa and would like any and all in formation that you would like to share with me about 1) Rammed Earth 2) straw bale 3)stack wall 4) wind power generation 5) solar power generation i'm availuating these as possability's for a home i'm designing/building for my self in eastern ont area Ray - You're asking a BIG question....It might be a good idea to check your local library first. There are lots of good books on these topics. Or go to the Amazon.com website, where you can purchase books over the internet. Also, if you search the Internet, you'll find that most of these topics have mailing lists and discussion groups. - Patrick ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 11:20:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16945 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:20:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA17335 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04137; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:13:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:07:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03032 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:07:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03017 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:07:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA14804 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:11:33 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 000593B1; Wed, 4 Feb 98 09:59:20 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:09:10 -0600 Message-ID: <000593B1.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Recycled products To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1745 Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 20:47:26 -0400 From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: recycled products John Salmen raises some excellent points, among them: is a material "green" merely because it contains recycled content? "And remember: our GreenBlock (TM) concrete blocks are Earth-Friendly (TM) because they contain RECYCLED plutonium! So every GreenBlock (TM) you buy will Save the Earth (TM) that much faster!" Recycled or not, perhaps there are molecules we just shouldn't make? Materials we shouldn't use? Buildings we shouldn't build? David Foley Excellent point, David. There is an analogous situation in regards to "embodied energy". For example, even though steel studs may contain 28-30% recycled content(the limit of today's technology, by the way), they're still WAY higher in embodied energy than wood studs. In addition, the production of "recycled" steel studs releases tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, whereas the production/use of wood studs actually STORES carbon. So, the analysis is never as simple as "recycled versus nonrecycled". - Patrick Pierquet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 11:22:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16965 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:22:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA18510 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:21:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04435; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:15:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:09:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03304 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:09:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.storm.ca (root@storm.ca [207.245.225.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03296 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:09:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from storm.ca (storm01p25.storm.ca [207.245.246.25]) by mail.storm.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA13847 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:14:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34D893AE.CC9F50AE@storm.ca> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 11:13:34 -0500 From: Ray Doucette Organization: Earth homes Canada (WWW Info Center) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: re-writen request for for in formation on alternative construction Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------35E1A54AD3A225A438BD2002" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1746 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------35E1A54AD3A225A438BD2002 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi there, i've bin asked to re-state my question's for sake of understanding and ease of understanding ;-) i'm looking for any one with working experience with several alternative construction technique's the technique's are 1 ) Rammed Earth 2 ) stack Wall 3 ) straw bale 4 ) Wind power Generation 5 ) solar power generation that i'm looking for is person / persons with working knowlage of these item's, i'm not a student looking for anyone to write a paper for me or any thing like that, i'm just a person planning to build my own home it the next few year's and i'm looking for information on a personal level some one with a knowage of these field's for a sorta pow-wow, a mentor if you will, thank you for your time --------------35E1A54AD3A225A438BD2002 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Ray Doucette Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Ray Doucette n: Doucette;Ray org: Earth Homes Canada adr: ;;;Ottawa;Ont,;;Canada email;internet: ray@storm.ca x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------35E1A54AD3A225A438BD2002-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 11:43:17 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17311 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:43:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA26309 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:41:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07202; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:35:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:29:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA06288 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:29:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06284 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:29:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-14-MAX-BTVT-04.ramp.together.net [208.5.164.14]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA02632; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:35:02 -0500 Message-ID: <34D898B1.B9DF31BE@together.net> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 11:34:58 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Potable Hot Water in Baseboards References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A389599A7D76FD4B078AFFC2" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1747 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A389599A7D76FD4B078AFFC2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D1CBE19918E7DFBB8BDF83BA" --------------D1CBE19918E7DFBB8BDF83BA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian: BOCA National Plumbing Code, 1990: P-1505.7 Used water return: "Water used for the cooling of equipment or other processes shall not be returned to the potable water sytem. Such water shall be discharged into a drainage system through an air gap or used for non potable purposes." Also: P-1505.12.2 Heat Exchangers: Comment: Section states double wall HX required for toxic transfer fluid. and: ".......... Heat exchangers using an essentially non toxic transfer fkuid are permitted to be of single wall construction." It is written. The referenced code may or may not be adopted in your local state, province or town. Tom Anderson IMSHAPIRO@aol.com wrote: > Anyone know the latest on whether it's okay/recommended/code- > compliant/otherwise-kosher to use potable hot water (e.g. from a domestic > hot water heater) for space heating (e.g. in baseboard heaters and/or radiant > floor tubing)? Thanks in advance. > > Ian > > Ian Shapiro, PE > Taitem Engineering > 963 Comfort Road > Spencer, NY 14883 > 607 277 1118 > 607 277 2119 FAX > "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ --------------D1CBE19918E7DFBB8BDF83BA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian:

BOCA National Plumbing Code, 1990:

P-1505.7 Used water return:

"Water used for the cooling of equipment or other processes shall not be returned to the potable water sytem.  Such water shall be discharged into a drainage system through an air gap or used for non potable purposes."

Also:  P-1505.12.2 Heat Exchangers:  Comment:  Section states  double wall HX required for toxic transfer fluid.  and:  "..........  Heat exchangers using an essentially non toxic transfer fkuid are permitted to be of single wall construction."

It is written.

The referenced code may or may not be adopted in your local state, province or town.
 

Tom Anderson
 
 
 
 

IMSHAPIRO@aol.com wrote:

Anyone know the latest on whether it's okay/recommended/code-
compliant/otherwise-kosher to use potable hot water (e.g. from a domestic
hot water heater) for space heating (e.g. in baseboard heaters and/or radiant
floor tubing)?  Thanks in advance.

Ian

Ian Shapiro, PE
Taitem Engineering
963 Comfort Road
Spencer, NY 14883
607 277 1118
607 277 2119 FAX
"Technology As If The Earth Mattered"

______________________________________________________________________
This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST <www.crest.org>
Environmental Building News <www.ebuild.com> and Oikos <www.oikos.com>
For  instructions send  e-mail to  greenbuilding-request@crest.org.
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  --------------D1CBE19918E7DFBB8BDF83BA-- --------------A389599A7D76FD4B078AFFC2 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Anderson, Tom Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Tom Anderson n: Anderson;Tom org: Mechanical Systems Design adr: PO Box 2020-248;;150 Dorset St.;South Burlington;Vermont;05407-2010;US email;internet: hvac@together.net title: CEO tel;work: 802-863-6808 tel;fax: 802-658-3106 note: High performnance HVAC systems design x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------A389599A7D76FD4B078AFFC2-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 11:53:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17464 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:53:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA29906 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:52:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08311; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:45:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:39:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07496 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:39:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from granite.sentex.net (granite.sentex.ca [199.212.134.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07492 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:39:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from wendy (p17a.lithium.sentex.ca [207.245.212.178]) by granite.sentex.net (8.8.6/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA15596 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:40:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980204164257.006d26cc@sentex.net> X-Sender: nlife02@sentex.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 11:42:57 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Wendy Priesnitz Subject: Re: GBlist: alternative home's Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1748 >hi there all I'm new to this group >I'm located in ottawa and would like any and all in formation that you >would like to share with me about >1) Rammed Earth >2) straw bale >3)stack wall >4) wind power generation >5) solar power generation >i'm availuating these as possability's for a home i'm >designing/building for my self in eastern ont area You might want to visit our website for info. We have four years' worth of articles online (and working backwards). The index of sustainable shelter articles can be found at . There is also a sustainable energy index at . Hope it helps. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 12:04:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17712 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:04:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA04698 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:03:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09617; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:57:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:51:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08809 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:51:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08802 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:51:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (sasc4-191.flash.net [209.30.90.191]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08345 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 10:57:10 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34D8A006.702282B0@flash.net> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 11:06:15 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Messages for Greenbuilder Group Subject: GBlist: Re: Salt-free Water Conditioning Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------CFF8B08402706CA33A128C86" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1749 --------------CFF8B08402706CA33A128C86 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It looks like there's enough interest to warrant a summary of what I've found so far. I promise to keep it brief--omitted details will be available upon request. 1. Types of salt-free conditioners appear to fall into two broad categories: a. Catalytic: 1) Catalytic 1000; $695.00 (possibly CA $); described (and sort of recommended) by Jorg Ostrowski; Stabilized Water of Canada, Inc., (403) 296-1600; http://www.soft-water.com/; said to convert calcium carbonate into calcite, attracting calcium and magnesium; 10 yr warranty; 2) Panther Water Stabilizer; $175-450 (depending on purchase location and size of unit); recommended by Sue Barnett; Enviro Air & Water, Austin TX, (800) 571-6637; http://www.in-carlsbad.com/goods/pcc/pantherw.htm/; no chemicals, electricity or magnets; requires periodic (monthly to annually, depending on chlorine in water) cleaning with muratic acid; 3) CareFree Conditioner; $350-600 (depending on size); (found via Web search); Great Water Co, Ruidoso NM, (505) 257-0229; http://www.greatwaterco.com/carefree.htm; uses principles of "epitaxial nucleation, controlled oxidation and reduction, and harmonics" (is there a chemist in the house??); b. Magnetic: 1) GMX Magnetic; $220; (various local retailers); http://www.acrocom.com/gmx/english/prod-e.htm or http://www2.gmxmagnetics.com/gmx/whtismhd.html/; uses permanent magnets clamped around the water supply pipe to align water molecules, preventing mineral scaling and redissolving existing scale (may also be used on the fuel line in your car); some claims have been made that ferrous particles accumulate in the pipe at the point the magnets surround it; not for use on ferrous (iron) pipes; 2) ClearWave; $200-250; recommended by Cindie Shea and mentioned (10/96 - GBList) by Chip Shepherd; Home Depot; http://fieldcontrols.com/ (home page), add "Package.htm" for a thorough (if biased) discussion of concepts; uses a varying radio frequency electromagnetic field rated at 5 watts; Notes: - Prices are approximate for a residential unit. - I still don't see a clear-cut winner, but may go with Panther unit. - I ran across one rather intertaining site on this topic at http://web.globalserve.net/~alivewater/ - Many hedge their bets based on what type water problem you have, or recommend simultaneous use of some sort of filter. - There are lots more. The truth is out there--make your choice. Thanks to all for your interest and information on this quest. Larry --------------CFF8B08402706CA33A128C86 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It looks like there's enough interest to warrant a summary of what I've found so far.  I promise to keep it brief--omitted details will be available upon request.

1.  Types of salt-free conditioners appear to fall into two broad categories:

    a.  Catalytic:

        1)  Catalytic 1000; $695.00 (possibly CA $); described (and sort of recommended) by Jorg Ostrowski; Stabilized Water of Canada, Inc., (403) 296-1600; http://www.soft-water.com/; said to convert calcium carbonate into calcite, attracting calcium and magnesium; 10 yr warranty;

        2)  Panther Water Stabilizer; $175-450 (depending on purchase location and size of unit); recommended by Sue Barnett; Enviro Air & Water, Austin TX, (800) 571-6637; http://www.in-carlsbad.com/goods/pcc/pantherw.htm/; no chemicals, electricity or magnets; requires periodic (monthly to annually, depending on chlorine in water) cleaning with muratic acid;

        3)  CareFree Conditioner; $350-600 (depending on size); (found via Web search); Great Water Co, Ruidoso NM, (505) 257-0229; http://www.greatwaterco.com/carefree.htm; uses principles of "epitaxial nucleation, controlled oxidation and reduction, and harmonics" (is there a chemist in the house??);

    b.  Magnetic:

        1)  GMX Magnetic; $220; (various local retailers); http://www.acrocom.com/gmx/english/prod-e.htm or http://www2.gmxmagnetics.com/gmx/whtismhd.html/; uses permanent magnets clamped around the water supply pipe to align water molecules, preventing mineral scaling and redissolving existing scale (may also be used on the fuel line in your car); some claims have been made that ferrous particles accumulate in the pipe at the point the magnets surround it; not for use on ferrous (iron) pipes;

        2)  ClearWave; $200-250; recommended by Cindie Shea and mentioned (10/96 - GBList) by Chip Shepherd; Home Depot; http://fieldcontrols.com/ (home page), add "Package.htm" for a thorough (if biased) discussion of concepts; uses a varying radio frequency electromagnetic field rated at 5 watts;

Notes:
    - Prices are approximate for a residential unit.
    - I still don't see a clear-cut winner, but may go with Panther unit.
    - I ran across one rather intertaining site on this topic at
            http://web.globalserve.net/~alivewater/
    - Many hedge their bets based on what type water problem you have, or
    recommend simultaneous use of some sort of filter.
    - There are lots more.  The truth is out there--make your choice.

Thanks to all for your interest and information on this quest.

Larry --------------CFF8B08402706CA33A128C86-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 12:43:24 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA18274 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:43:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA21932 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:41:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12731; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:35:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:30:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA11992 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:29:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11987 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:29:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sa3-p15.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.79]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA22723 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:35:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34D8A5D4.7C28@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 12:31:00 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: necrotic waters Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1750 Larry wrote: I ran across one rather intertaining site on this topic at http://web.globalserve.net/~alivewater/ You mean I've been bathing dead water all these years and nobody told me? Makes the skin crawl just thinking about it, it's like necroimmersion or something. This is exactly the image much of the world has about "Green", that it is faddy, psuedo-science with a shady profit motive, pure quackery.For us to make any progress that is precisely the image we have to overcome. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 14:11:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA20004 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA27168 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:10:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20569; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:04:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:00:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19955 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:00:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19947 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA25028; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:05:37 -0800 Message-ID: <34D8BB21.6176ADA1@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 11:01:53 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: necrotic waters References: <34D8A5D4.7C28@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1751 A great site. I must admit I prefer my water dead and even cooked. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Larry wrote: I ran across one rather intertaining site on this topic at > http://web.globalserve.net/~alivewater/ > > You mean I've been bathing dead water all these years and nobody told > me? Makes the skin crawl just thinking about it, it's like > necroimmersion or something. > > This is exactly the image much of the world has about "Green", that it > is faddy, psuedo-science with a shady profit motive, pure quackery.For > us to make any progress that is precisely the image we have to overcome. > > Chuck > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 15:49:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA21211 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA13447 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:47:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28077; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:41:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:36:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA27634 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:36:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from pioneer.hmp.com (pioneer.hmp.com [38.184.171.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27627 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:36:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by pioneer.hmp.com (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA07856; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:38:38 -0700 Received: from exc.hmp.com(192.168.1.1) by pioneer.hmp.com via smap (V1.3) id smab07848; Wed Feb 4 13:38:08 1998 Received: by carson.hmp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD3172.C7C6A8C0@carson.hmp.com>; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:42:48 -0700 Message-Id: From: Peter Baston To: "'ashcreek@dreamscape.com'" , "'John Salmen'" Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: necrotic waters Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:42:46 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1752 >---------- >From: John Salmen[SMTP:terrain@cow-net.com] >Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 1998 12:01 PM >To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com >Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org >Subject: Re: GBlist: necrotic waters > >Actually there is a lot on sense behind the Livedead Water issue as anyone >who has worked with Racehorses will tell you. > >When water has been standing static for a long time the oxengenated activty >dies right down thats why good horse troughs have nose actuators which >release just enouhg water for the hoses to drink. When water is activated or >actuated as when you operate a faucete the OG level activity goes right up. >The horses feel better and are in a much better humor and exibit much greater >endurance and strength. wild animals know this to look where they drink when >preffered. Staic standing water seems to do the opposite. Also there are >mutiple electriocal current fields which with reverse polarity in moving >water clear the scale and algy from the water. Reverse osmosis and water >purification systems operate on sismilar principle. > >This entire issue has very good scientific base lines but like a lot of >things hype and marketing blows the facts out of all proportions > >Have a great day > >PeterB > > >A great site. I must admit I prefer my water dead and even cooked. > >John Salmen >TERRAIN E.D.S. > >Chuck Hinckley wrote: > >> Larry wrote: I ran across one rather intertaining site on this topic at >> http://web.globalserve.net/~alivewater/ >> >> You mean I've been bathing dead water all these years and nobody told >> me? Makes the skin crawl just thinking about it, it's like >> necroimmersion or something. >> >> This is exactly the image much of the world has about "Green", that it >> is faddy, psuedo-science with a shady profit motive, pure quackery.For >> us to make any progress that is precisely the image we have to overcome. >> >> Chuck >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >> Environmental Building News and Oikos >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >> ______________________________________________________________________ > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 16:51:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA21568 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:51:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA00534 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:49:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA29349; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:56:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:52:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28687 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:52:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28683 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:51:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA27621; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 12:57:12 -0800 Message-ID: <34D8D547.8340366F@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 12:53:28 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Baston CC: "'ashcreek@dreamscape.com'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: necrotic waters References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1753 Peter Baston wrote: > > > >Actually there is a lot on sense behind the Livedead Water issue as anyone > >who has worked with Racehorses will tell you. > > I'm sorry I have to confess I'm actually quite interested and a proponent of the qualities of active or fresh water (actually have been trying to gather some information on the changes in water quality trying to optimize the flow and storage requirements of sand filtration. I didn't mean to sound negative just humorous which was in part my response to the web site which which had all those wonderful new age marketing qualities in (for me) all the wrong doses. Thanks for the more relavent information. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 16:51:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA21579 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:51:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA00585 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:50:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA01266; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:15:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00645 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:14:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from essex.UCHSC.edu (essex.UCHSC.EDU [140.226.1.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00639 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:14:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (hooperj@localhost) by essex.UCHSC.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA29111 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:22:36 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:22:34 -0700 (MST) From: Joan Hooper Reply-To: Joan Hooper To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Dorwin window Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1754 I am considering replacing the windows in my house. Currently I have 70's vintage double pane aluminum frame single hung- 2 south, 3 east, 3 west. I want really good insulation and the highest possible heat gain from our winter sun (summer heating is not an issue). Various salesmen have told me "heat mirror is great", "heat mirror will block solar gain", "heat mirror will wrinkle and crack in our drastic temp fluctuations here in Denver". I get similar conflicting input on triple pane "it is great for fixed windows", "it is too heavy for double hung windows". Argon filling " it is great", "it wont stand up to the temp fluctuations in Denver", "the seals are designed for sea level and will leak at our elevation", "argon leaks through trhe glass and will dissipate in a couple years". Any true life experience/advice? Thermal performance and longevity is the issue, not cost. Thanks, joan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 16:51:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA21588 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:51:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA00621 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:50:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03409; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:44:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:40:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02942 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:39:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02936 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:39:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.198.13.108] (ud11.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.108]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA01055 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:45:51 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:51:54 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: SPAM be forwarned - IAQ conference announcement Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1755 The 10th Annual National Conference on INDOOR AIR POLLUTION February 23-25, 1998 Sheraton Palace Hotel San Francisco, California Conference Chair: Dr. Richard J. Shaughnessy Panel Moderator: Hal Levin US EPA Region 9 Host Coordinator: Barbara Spark Full conference brochure available by calling (918) 631-2347 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 17:02:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA22370 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:02:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA03520 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:00:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02207; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:26:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:21:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA01641 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:21:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01630 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:21:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sA1-d2.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.227]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA24465 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:27:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34D8DC2A.7FD2@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 16:22:50 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Necrotic water Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1756 Peter, I don't know what animals you've been studying but my dog ans cats drink out of mud puddles, nasty old rain buckets and just about any place. They never go for running water. The sight didn't seem to refer to oxygen as the life support system of the water but maybe that's what they meant. Wouldn't aerators accomplish the same thing? I don't know the whole site just looked like a big load of crap to me. If there is some real science here what is it? For those it may concern, Please don't send me a message and then cc: it to the Greenbuilding list, if you got my message from the greenbuilding list and then just hit reply, I get alot of unnecessary quoted material (I wrote the thing in the first place) and I also get two copies of it. I don't mean to be an asshole here but I have enough to read in a day without rereading everything 3 times. Please be selective about what you choose to quote. Yikes, maybe I need a cocktail, it's been a bit abrading today. Sorry! Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 17:57:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA23676 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:57:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA23233 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:56:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07113; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:50:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:44:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA06536 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:44:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from pioneer.hmp.com (pioneer.hmp.com [38.184.171.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06528 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:44:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by pioneer.hmp.com (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA08429; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:46:28 -0700 Received: from exc.hmp.com(192.168.1.1) by pioneer.hmp.com via smap (V1.3) id sma008425; Wed Feb 4 15:46:10 1998 Received: by carson.hmp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD3184.ABFE3650@carson.hmp.com>; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:50:52 -0700 Message-Id: From: Peter Baston To: "'Messages for Greenbuilder Group'" , "'Larry Stivers'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Hard Water Conditioning Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:50:51 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1757 >---------- >From: Larry Stivers[SMTP:larry48@flash.net] >Sent: Saturday, January 31, 1998 1:03 PM >To: Messages for Greenbuilder Group >Subject: GBlist: Hard Water Conditioning > >fuunily enough there used to be a really great little company just south of >you in Hondo TXs that made geat polarity water cleaners. I have not used the >brand you mentioned but the science does in fact have great merrit and is >totally underused in the US whre chemical dunking to treat water prevails. > >The whole science rests on the fact that if you stick a bypass with a magnet >on a pipe containing waterflow the magnet when activated reveress the mag >field of the water and all the contaiminant get attacted to the source fields >oposite poles. The only large treatments I have seen in the US have been by >power plants looking to clean up water intake manifols for cooling in power >boilers . It exetends the life of Copper and other metals by 1000%. >Thats just unert stuff imagine what it could do for the human body. I saw >several companies try to market that to major US water utilities to use at >there prime source and bluntly the deals fell through because the whole >financial concept of water purification in this part of the world rests on >big $$$$$ Bucks chemical treatment. Even water lilies have more sense. > >Go to your local library and look in the THOMAS REGISTER there enormous green >indexes bigger than ENCY BRITANICA think the last time I looked there are >multiple listings of companies that make this stuff. They are also on line on >the web. If you want to run a home experiment and visually see waht happens >just stick a plastic tube in the tap get a mgnet and put it next to the tube. >Turn on the tap pour one glass of water. Put a new piece of hose on the tap >and pour a glass without the magnet. Look at the difference of course the >bypass works much better and hold more gunk. > >rgds Peterb > >I'm looking for an unbiased oppinion. The San Antonio TX area has >fairly hard water, which I want to treat. I'm not at all concerned >about ingesting it, but would like to avoid the pipe clogging and >water heater buildups associated with this. > >Also, my wife Pam detests the "scummy-looking stuff" that appears on >the surface of the water when she makes tea. I explained patiently to >her that it took hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary fine >tuning to get our bodies to thrive on that "scummy-looking stuff", and >that she should hail its appearance on the surface of her tea as an >indication that she's getting just what she needs. Her response to my >pedagogery is best left unprinted--suffice it to say she disagrees. > >I put a regular (osmosis-type) water softener in our last house, and >disliked perpetually loading it with rock salt. I've heard of the GMX >Magnetic water treatment device and know that it costs much less that >a regular water softener. I would like to hear from someone who has >actually used it. > >Larry > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 18:02:24 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA23720 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:02:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA25484 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:00:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07489; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:55:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:50:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA07086 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:50:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA07081 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:50:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.77] (pa-ppp41.hevanet.com [204.119.60.77]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA04638 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:55:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34D8A5D4.7C28@dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:54:26 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: necrotic waters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1758 Hi, Chuck-- When I was reading up on the geometry of phi, the golden ratio, that shows up in so many natural forms from sunflowers to chambered nautili, I ran across a web site devoted to the ways phi appears in flowing water. Written in somewhat New Age language, but interesting and thought-provoking. A must for living water fans! http://www.danwinter.com/water/water.html Best, Mike >Larry wrote: I ran across one rather intertaining site on this topic at > http://web.globalserve.net/~alivewater/ > >You mean I've been bathing dead water all these years and nobody told >me? Makes the skin crawl just thinking about it, it's like >necroimmersion or something. > >This is exactly the image much of the world has about "Green", that it >is faddy, psuedo-science with a shady profit motive, pure quackery.For >us to make any progress that is precisely the image we have to overcome. > >Chuck >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants Earth Smart Program obrien@hevanet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 18:20:04 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA23962 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:20:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA02582 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:18:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08251; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:08:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA07896 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:08:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07892 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:08:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA05629; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:13:57 -0800 Message-ID: <34D8F553.826E18AA@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 15:10:11 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Mike O'Brien" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: necrotic waters References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1759 The site was interesting the wave flow illustration reminded me of some experiments I saw on storm water pipes in Britain where they tried to reproduce a similar flow pattern to affect some purification. Don't know the results it was a long time ago and I have not seen any such products become available but perhaps they are in some custom usage. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 19:33:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA25378 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA24983 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:31:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11937; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:26:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:22:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11564 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:21:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA11557 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:21:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (sasc4-176.flash.net [209.30.90.176]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA01675; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:27:25 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34D90991.DB92A7CB@flash.net> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 18:36:33 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: necrotic waters References: <34D8A5D4.7C28@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1760 Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Larry wrote: I ran across one rather intertaining site on this topic at > http://web.globalserve.net/~alivewater/ > > You mean I've been bathing dead water all these years and nobody told > me? Makes the skin crawl just thinking about it, it's like > necroimmersion or something. > > This is exactly the image much of the world has about "Green", that it > is faddy, psuedo-science with a shady profit motive, pure quackery.For > us to make any progress that is precisely the image we have to overcome. > > Chuck > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ Chuck, Shame on you for scoffing. Those "re-energized waters" are already having an effect--just ask the folks on the California coast. Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 19:56:13 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA25727 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:56:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA03641 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:54:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA13301; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:49:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:44:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA12877 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:44:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12873 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 19:44:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (sasc4-176.flash.net [209.30.90.176]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA09818; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:50:07 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34D90EE4.E7D64215@flash.net> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 18:59:16 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Baston CC: "'ashcreek@dreamscape.com'" , "'John Salmen'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: necrotic waters References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------DDD84838D49EA7C5F796425C" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1761 --------------DDD84838D49EA7C5F796425C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter Baston wrote: > >---------- > >From: John Salmen[SMTP:terrain@cow-net.com] > >Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 1998 12:01 PM > >To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com > >Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org > >Subject: Re: GBlist: necrotic waters > > > >Actually there is a lot on sense behind the Livedead Water issue as anyone > >who has worked with Racehorses will tell you. > > > >When water has been standing static for a long time the oxengenated activty > >dies right down thats why good horse troughs have nose actuators which > >release just enouhg water for the hoses to drink. When water is activated or > >actuated as when you operate a faucete the OG level activity goes right up. > >The horses feel better and are in a much better humor and exibit much greater > >endurance and strength. wild animals know this to look where they drink when > >preffered. Staic standing water seems to do the opposite. Also there are > >mutiple electriocal current fields which with reverse polarity in moving > >water clear the scale and algy from the water. Reverse osmosis and water > >purification systems operate on sismilar principle. > > > >This entire issue has very good scientific base lines but like a lot of > >things hype and marketing blows the facts out of all proportions > > > >Have a great day > > > >PeterB > (prior comments snipped) Peter, Good point. Maybe that explains why my wife's darn cat will only drink her water right after it's been poured into her bowl. Funny though, I don't have a "Danish Water Revitalizer", a "Nordic Living Water System", or even a "Positive Energy Transformer". Is it possible that the ubiquitous faucet aerators go a long ways toward re-oxygenating our tap water? Well, even if the concept makes sense, it's too bad the creator of this site chose to hide sound principles behind mumbo-jumbo and pseudo-science. Larry --------------DDD84838D49EA7C5F796425C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Peter Baston wrote:

>----------
>From:  John Salmen[SMTP:terrain@cow-net.com]
>Sent:  Wednesday, February 04, 1998 12:01 PM
>To:    ashcreek@dreamscape.com
>Cc:    greenbuilding@crest.org
>Subject:       Re: GBlist: necrotic waters
>
>Actually there is a lot on sense behind the Livedead Water issue as anyone
>who has worked with Racehorses will tell you.
>
>When water has been standing static for a long time the oxengenated activty
>dies right down thats why good horse troughs have nose actuators which
>release just enouhg water for the hoses to drink. When water is activated or
>actuated as when you operate a faucete the OG level activity goes right up.
>The horses feel better and are in a much better humor and exibit much greater
>endurance and strength. wild animals know this to look where they drink when
>preffered. Staic standing water seems to do the opposite.  Also there are
>mutiple electriocal current fields which with reverse polarity in moving
>water clear the scale and algy from the water. Reverse osmosis and water
>purification systems operate on sismilar principle.
>
>This entire issue has very good scientific base lines but like a lot of
>things hype and marketing blows the facts out of all proportions
>
>Have a great day
>
>PeterB
(prior comments snipped)
Peter,

Good point.  Maybe that explains why my wife's darn cat will only drink her water right after it's been poured into her bowl.  Funny though, I don't have a "Danish Water Revitalizer", a "Nordic Living Water System", or even a "Positive Energy Transformer".  Is it possible that the ubiquitous faucet aerators go a long ways toward re-oxygenating our tap water?
 
Well, even if the concept makes sense, it's too bad the creator of this site chose to hide sound principles behind mumbo-jumbo and pseudo-science.

Larry --------------DDD84838D49EA7C5F796425C-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 20:44:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA26278 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:44:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA20187 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:43:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15273; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:37:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:32:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA14931 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA14927 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:32:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA09033; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:37:33 -0800 Message-ID: <34D916FA.EFFFF060@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 17:33:47 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist:exhaust turbines Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1762 Hi, I need a little help sourcing a good wind driven turbine or rotary exhaust fan (roof ventilator). Closest source I could find was Ellflow in New Zealand. There must be a N.A. manufacturer. This is part of the design for the public/residential compost facility which I promise I will share with all. Many thanks in anticipation. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 21:19:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA26689 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:19:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA29557 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:17:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17792; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:12:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:07:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17061 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:07:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17051 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:07:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip08.ivnet.net [206.101.73.168]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA21063; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:13:19 -0800 Message-ID: <34D91F3B.3EAD7753@ivnet.net> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 18:09:00 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joan Hooper CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Dorwin window References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1763 Joan Hooper wrote: > I am considering replacing the windows in my house. Currently I have 70's > vintage double pane aluminum frame single hung- 2 south, 3 east, 3 west. I > want really good insulation and the highest possible heat gain from our > winter sun (summer heating is not an issue). Various salesmen have told > me "heat mirror is great", "heat mirror will block solar gain", "heat > mirror will wrinkle and crack in our drastic temp fluctuations here in > Denver". > > I get similar conflicting input on triple pane "it is great > for fixed windows", "it is too heavy for double hung windows". > > Argon filling " it is great", "it wont stand up to the temp fluctuations > in Denver", "the seals are designed for sea level and will leak at our > elevation", "argon leaks through trhe glass and will dissipate in a couple > years". > > Any true life experience/advice? Thermal performance and longevity is the > issue, not cost. > > Thanks, > joan > Hi Joan, As for the heat gain for low-e coatings, most of the energy reflected by the low-e film is in the infrared part of the spectrum. Especially during a Denver winter, most of the energy shining on your windows will be in the visible and UV parts of the spectrum. So your coating should be reflecting the warmth (infrared) from inside the house back to you.Argon in a regular dual-glazed, low-e window generally increases the R-value at the center of the glass from about 3 to about 4. Argon does this by slowing the conductive heat loss through the glass. It will probably leak out very slowly as it attempts to equalize its pressure with the air around it, but this will be slow. It should still be pretty much pure Argon after 10 or 20 years. The atmospheric pressure stress on the seals will be the same for Argon as for dry air. The failure rate for the seals should be the same. If anything, Argon might slow the rate of oxidation of the sealant goop compared to filling the window with air, but I doubt that you would find this to be statistically noticeable. In any case, when the seal fails, you will have your familiar fogged up window routine. There is a pretty good article in the current issue Fine Homebuilding magazine. It should still be on the newstands. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 21:28:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA26766 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:28:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA02039 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:26:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18451; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:21:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:17:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18136 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:17:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18132 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:16:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA08468 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 20:22:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-55.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.183) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma008033; Wed Feb 4 20:19:07 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980204211806.006ea474@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 21:18:08 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Now for something totally different... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1764 ...Clawing at the back of my increasingly achy cranial cavity, a message that could only be imagined let alone posted, springs forth to haunt list... ............................................................................. ~ oo ~ Help me please, I have no time left to do productive work for my clients... < SO > (yea you guessed it) send me everything you have, ASAP, on -- green building, sustainable design, land use planning, recycled materials, xeriscape, global climate change, energy efficiency, low-emission vehicles, composting toilets, moisture in buildings, air-tightness and ventilation, HVAC design, codes and standards, life-cycle assessment, duct sealing, water conservation, deconstruction, commissioning, passive solar design, earth shelter homes, frost proof foundations, pollution impact calculations, and especially small business management techniques... Please respond quickly. I need this material yesterday so we can respond to all the requests that come in every week to provide free consulting services across the developed world. We love getting the business... ~ oo ~ .......................................................................... Now, back to reality -- how in the world can the environmental buildings professional start assigning a value to their unique and truly ecological work, if consumers, builders, and even governmental officials continue to insist that such information should be totally "free?" I actually got flamed (off list) last week by someone insisting I was *>spawn of youknowwho<* for accepting fees for what I do! They also stated that they would just "go to a green conference, learn what they needed to know and hang out their own shingle" -- cool say's he, need a web site?... I am beyond ready for the couch... any ideas... how have you solved the "I get it for free, so why should I pay you..." dilemma? (rapidly losing it in Maryland... your humble servant, Bion) ---- PS: seriously, anybody know of a good small business issues list-server? | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 21:41:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA26919 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:41:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA06201 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:40:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19611; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:34:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:29:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18724 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:29:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18718 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:29:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA10466; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 18:33:46 -0800 Message-ID: <34D92428.A5B33574@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 18:30:01 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bion D. Howard" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Now for something totally different... References: <3.0.32.19980204211806.006ea474@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1765 I have a suspicion you are responding to my request for information on rotary fans. I commiserate and have generally been unpaid for most of the investigative or research work that I do and would love to have the work that I've done valued more both by clients and peers. I have a project to develop and build a $20,000 public composting facility for $12,000. I'm going to do it because it might make such techniques more acceptable in my area and will help mitigate some of the more damaging effects of park usage in our area. In the same sense that there are some things that should not be done - there are always some that should. The present economy will be relatively slow (not my lifetime) in assigning value to greenbuilding. There are always potboilers and the simple timeless process of eking out a living, but living a life. The services you have and are providing are more than valuable they are simply necessary. Thank you. In sympathy John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Bion D. Howard wrote: > ...Clawing at the back of my increasingly achy cranial cavity, a message > that could only be imagined let alone posted, springs forth to haunt > list... > ............................................................................. > ~ oo ~ > Help me please, I have no time left to do productive work for my clients... > < SO > (yea you guessed it) send me everything you have, ASAP, on -- > > green building, sustainable design, land use planning, recycled materials, > xeriscape, global climate change, energy efficiency, low-emission vehicles, > composting toilets, moisture in buildings, air-tightness and ventilation, > HVAC design, codes and standards, life-cycle assessment, duct sealing, > water conservation, deconstruction, commissioning, passive solar design, > earth shelter homes, frost proof foundations, pollution impact > calculations, and especially small business management techniques... > > Please respond quickly. I need this material yesterday so we can respond to > all the requests that come in every week to provide free consulting > services across the developed world. We love getting the business... > ~ oo ~ > .......................................................................... > > Now, back to reality -- how in the world can the environmental buildings > professional start assigning a value to their unique and truly ecological > work, if consumers, builders, and even governmental officials continue to > insist that such information should be totally "free?" I actually got > flamed (off list) last week by someone insisting I was *>spawn of > youknowwho<* for accepting fees for what I do! They also stated that they > would just "go to a green conference, learn what they needed to know and > hang out their own shingle" > -- cool say's he, need a web site?... > > I am beyond ready for the couch... any ideas... how have you solved the "I > get it for free, so why should I pay you..." dilemma? > > (rapidly losing it in Maryland... your humble servant, Bion) > ---- > PS: seriously, anybody know of a good small business issues list-server? > | > =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services > | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal > Building Environmental Science & Technology > P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 21:42:53 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA26940 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:42:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA06623 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:41:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19850; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:35:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:30:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18907 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:30:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18891 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:30:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.37] (blf30.acadia.net [205.217.217.30]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA17365 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:36:13 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:34:11 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: product impact Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1766 John Salmen wrote: ...Some would argue that this would be impossible to define as all materials carry an element of potential harm but I think the defining element would be a categorical definition of harm and degree of harm potential that relates to our current knowledge base and the potential abilility of a user to make safer substitutions... end of quote I know two people in Europe doing research along similar lines: Professor Kees Duijvestain of the Technical University of Delft, Netherlands and Lars Myhre of the Building Technology Department of the Norwegian Building Research Institute (Byggforsk). Both are ranking the environmental impact of materials. Lars is going a step further and assessing the environmental impact of whole building assemblies and systems. They's both say that doing this research well is incredibly complex. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 21:43:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA26950 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA06743 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:41:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19887; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:36:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:31:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18908 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:30:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18896 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:30:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.37] (blf30.acadia.net [205.217.217.30]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA17370 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:36:18 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:34:16 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: The Dilemma Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1767 Thanks to everyone who gave advice regarding our clients who want the large home. What a great group of people is on this list! Here's how it has worked out so far: with some design effort, we squeezed about 500 square feet out of the initial design, and still met their wishes. They then made a few concessions which save a couple hundred more square feet. They have also agreed to a larger budget than at first, enabling us to afford more quality, durable and Green materials. So far, we have them on board for Certified Well-Managed Forest wood flooring and siding (maybe framing lumber), an R30wall/R50 roof building envelope with dense-pack cellulose, good windows, natural linoleum instead of vinyl, and a "teamwork" process with a contractor, instead of the usual auction. We'll try to advance further, as we build trust and rapport with them. Thanks again. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 23:27:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA29092 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:27:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA17590 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:25:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA24285; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:19:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:14:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23350 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:14:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin52.mail.aol.com (mrin52.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.162]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23342 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:14:29 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin52.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id XAA15351 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:19:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:19:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980204231938_961132980@mrin52> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: The Dilemma Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1768 David Foley said... >>Here's how it has worked out so far:<< Great work! I meant to say something about this before. Here's how I've resolved this dilemma for myself: I try to be really clear on the values I hold dear in my work (which would include making smaller houses, for example) while I'm marketing for the job. Once I get it though, I don't push my clients _too_ far beyond their comfort level. That can make them feel guilty, which I feel is totally counterproductive. (The guilt-inducing gloom and doom approach is now thought of as one of the major wrong turns of the early environmental movement, as I understand it.) Rob Harrison Seattle *** Robert Harrison Architects http://members.aol.com/rhdesign --lyrical sustainable design-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 23:27:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA29101 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:27:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA17617 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:25:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA24293; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:20:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:15:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23483 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:15:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA23472 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:15:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA142032; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:19:53 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 21:19:52 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist:exhaust turbines In-Reply-To: <34D916FA.EFFFF060@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1769 Phone the local hardware store or Revy. They usually have 2 US manufacturers. Jorg ___________________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 4 Feb 1998, John Salmen wrote: > > Hi, I need a little help sourcing a good wind driven turbine or rotary > exhaust fan (roof ventilator). Closest source I could find was Ellflow > in New Zealand. There must be a N.A. manufacturer. This is part of the > design for the public/residential compost facility which I promise I > will share with all. > > Many thanks in anticipation. > > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 4 23:27:08 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA29095 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:27:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA17598 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:25:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA24287; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:19:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:14:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23335 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:14:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin51.mx.aol.com (mrin51.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.161]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23329 for ; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:14:23 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin51.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id XAA28942 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:19:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 23:19:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980204231933_625981237@mrin51.mx> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Now for something totally different... Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1770 Bion said... >>...how in the world can the environmental buildings professional start assigning a value to their...work, if consumers, builders, and even governmental officials continue to insist that such information should be totally "free?"<< This attitude astounds me when I come across it--(which is rarely, thank goodness): Because it's good for the earth we must be doing this for _completely_ altruistic reasons, and not care whether we earn enough to maybe, eventually, someday build our _own_ homes. Why should my professional services as an architect (or yours as a building science consultant) be valued any differently from those of a doctor or lawyer? Arrrgh. Depending on the person's attitude, after 15 or 20 minutes of answering questions as best I can, I'll sometimes mention that "I'll be glad to continue our conversation at a later date. My consulting rate is..." You could always start a 900 line... That said, more seriously and constructively: In a lecture here in Seattle, Randolph Croxton, architect of Audubon headquarters in NYC, said (paraphrasing): "At some point, what we all now call "sustainable, green, or environmentally friendly design" will be known simply as "_good_ design." He thought the way to have clients value our "sustainable" services was to make buildings that were clearly and demonstrably _better_ than anyone else's. We can do that! I've always thought (and tried to make clear to my prospective clients) that making a decent living from work in line with my values is part of the deal--that there isn't anything _at all_ compromising about that. I think there's a name for that idea in the voluntary simplicity movement--"right livelihood." Have faith. There are wonderful clients out there. I've been lucky to work with a number of them. Eccentric--a few truly odd ones even--but quite an interesting group. Rob Harrison Seattle *** Robert Harrison Architects http://members.aol.com/rhdesign --lyrical sustainable design-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 01:16:47 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA00838 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 01:16:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA21595 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 01:15:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA27774; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 01:09:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 01:05:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA27466 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 01:05:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 01:05:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802050605.BAA27466@solstice.crest.org> From: George Kamburoff Reply-To: gkam@pacbell.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-PBWG (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: dead water Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1771 List readers, This appeared on the list recently: >When water has been standing static for a long time the oxengenated activty >dies right down thats why good horse troughs have nose actuators which >release just enouhg water for the hoses to drink. When water is activated or >actuated as when you operate a faucete the OG level activity goes right up. >The horses feel better and are in a much better humor and exibit much greater >endurance and strength. wild animals know this to look where they drink when >preffered. Staic standing water seems to do the opposite. Also there are >mutiple electriocal current fields which with reverse polarity in moving >water clear the scale and algy from the water. Reverse osmosis and water >purification systems operate on sismilar principle. Pardon me, folks. There are no "mutiple electriocal current fields . . with reverse polarity in moving water". And there's nothing magic about aeration. Actually, research has shown just the opposite. Russians in the mid-70's found that water uptake by plants was significantly increased if the water was degassed (NOT aerated). They also claimed a 10% increase in ultimate hardness in concrete made with degassed ("dead") water. And we know that warm water will often freeze sooner than cooler water because of its reduced concentration of dissolved gases. I don't know about racehorses, but some things favor the "dead" stuff. George Kamburoff Consultant in Electrical Power -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 09:40:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02417 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:40:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA04697 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:38:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08881; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:33:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:26:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA08413 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:26:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08407 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:26:13 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id JJY21381; Thu, 05 Feb 1998 09:30:48 EST To: pbaston@hmp.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, larry48@flash.net Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:41:18 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Hard Water Conditioning Message-ID: <19980205.084125.3622.0.sbtauto@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,5-6,8-55 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1772 I think someone is missing the obvious flaw in the GMX water treatment theory. First of all, calcium and limestone are not magnetic! When combined with water and heated they are very sticky and adhere very well to plastic and metal. That is why we have to replace water heaters here every 5 to 10 years or less. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:50:51 -0700 Peter Baston writes: > > >>---------- >>From: Larry Stivers[SMTP:larry48@flash.net] >>Sent: Saturday, January 31, 1998 1:03 PM >>To: Messages for Greenbuilder Group >>Subject: GBlist: Hard Water Conditioning >> >>fuunily enough there used to be a really great little company just >south of >>you in Hondo TXs that made geat polarity water cleaners. I have not >used the >>brand you mentioned but the science does in fact have great merrit >and is >>totally underused in the US whre chemical dunking to treat water >prevails. >> >>The whole science rests on the fact that if you stick a bypass with a >magnet >>on a pipe containing waterflow the magnet when activated reveress the >mag >>field of the water and all the contaiminant get attacted to the >source fields >>oposite poles. The only large treatments I have seen in the US have >been by >>power plants looking to clean up water intake manifols for cooling in >power >>boilers . It exetends the life of Copper and other metals by 1000%. >>Thats just unert stuff imagine what it could do for the human body. >I saw >>several companies try to market that to major US water utilities to >use at >>there prime source and bluntly the deals fell through because the >whole >>financial concept of water purification in this part of the world >rests on >>big $$$$$ Bucks chemical treatment. Even water lilies have more >sense. >> _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 10:05:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02738 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:05:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA12498 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10669; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:57:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:52:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10214 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:52:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10209 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:52:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-136-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.136]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA10216; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:58:05 -0500 Message-ID: <34D9D37A.752ECC18@together.net> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 09:58:02 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Potable Hot Water in Baseboards References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E29DC97EEAAF84D94110755C" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1773 --------------E29DC97EEAAF84D94110755C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian: (Second transmission: This message sent previously... not sure if went thru... netscape bugs.... TEA) BOCA National Plumbing Code, 1990: P-1505.7 Used water return: "Water used for the cooling of equipment or other processes shall not be returned to the potable water sytem. Such water shall be discharged into a drainage system through an air gap or used for non potable purposes." Also: P-1505.12.2 Heat Exchangers: Comment: Section states double wall HX required for toxic transfer fluid. and: ".......... Heat exchangers using an essentially non toxic transfer fkuid are permitted to be of single wall construction." It is written. The referenced code may or may not be adopted in your local state, province or town. Tom Anderson IMSHAPIRO@aol.com wrote: > Anyone know the latest on whether it's okay/recommended/code- > compliant/otherwise-kosher to use potable hot water (e.g. from a domestic > hot water heater) for space heating (e.g. in baseboard heaters and/or radiant > floor tubing)? Thanks in advance. > > Ian > > Ian Shapiro, PE > Taitem Engineering > 963 Comfort Road > Spencer, NY 14883 > 607 277 1118 > 607 277 2119 FAX > "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ --------------E29DC97EEAAF84D94110755C Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ian:

(Second transmission: This message sent previously... not sure if went thru... netscape bugs.... TEA)

BOCA National Plumbing Code, 1990:

P-1505.7 Used water return:

"Water used for the cooling of equipment or other processes shall not be returned to the potable water sytem.  Such
water shall be discharged into a drainage system through an air gap or used for non potable purposes."

Also:  P-1505.12.2 Heat Exchangers:  Comment:  Section states  double wall HX required for toxic transfer fluid.  and:
"..........  Heat exchangers using an essentially non toxic transfer fkuid are permitted to be of single wall construction."

It is written.

The referenced code may or may not be adopted in your local state, province or town.
 

Tom Anderson

IMSHAPIRO@aol.com wrote:

Anyone know the latest on whether it's okay/recommended/code-
compliant/otherwise-kosher to use potable hot water (e.g. from a domestic
hot water heater) for space heating (e.g. in baseboard heaters and/or radiant
floor tubing)?  Thanks in advance.

Ian

Ian Shapiro, PE
Taitem Engineering
963 Comfort Road
Spencer, NY 14883
607 277 1118
607 277 2119 FAX
"Technology As If The Earth Mattered"

______________________________________________________________________
This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST <www.crest.org>
Environmental Building News <www.ebuild.com> and Oikos <www.oikos.com>
For  instructions send  e-mail to  greenbuilding-request@crest.org.
______________________________________________________________________

  --------------E29DC97EEAAF84D94110755C-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 10:27:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03177 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:27:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA20925 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:24:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11686; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:18:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:13:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11263 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:12:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11218 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:10:39 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KcN21381; Thu, 05 Feb 1998 10:13:29 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: kanderson@ase.org, litesron@startronix.com, rblount@mitre.org, sei@solarenergy.org, tasfloyd@eden.com, MKOTRLA@delphi.com, admartin@glo.state.tx.us Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:25:40 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Solar News Message-ID: <19980205.092549.3622.3.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-45 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1774 Smud Looks West--to Alcatraz Utility Hopes to Provide Solar Power for Former Prison The Sacramento Bee Thu, Jan 29 1998 The rows of bare bulbs that light Alcatraz's concrete cells could someday draw on electricity created from sunlight -- and supplied by Sacramento's public utility. In one of its highest-profile solar efforts yet, the Sacramento Municipal Utility District is angling to become the power supplier for California's most infamous ex-prison. SMUD is offering to set up solar panels, at no cost to the park that now runs Alcatraz, probably on the roof of the massive, yellow cell house that can be seen from San Francisco's wharf. SMUD would own and maintain the solar system, and bill the park for the electricity it produces. "We think it's a very viable solution, and it would work very well out there," said Don Zeiman, chief of public utility management for the National Park Service, although he stressed that much analysis lies ahead. Solar power looks so appealing for Alcatraz partly because everything else looks so dismal. The rocky island in the San Francisco Bay has defied every attempt to hook it into the mainland's power grid. Ships chewed up cables the Coast Guard laid twice in the 1960s. The tiny power plant that supplied steam heat and electricity during Alcatraz's federal prison days is a rusting hulk. Beside it are two diesel-gulping generators that today produce power at a whopping 23.6 cents per kilowatt hour, according to Jim Christensen of the Golden Gate National recreation area, the national park that oversees the island. Basically, that means it costs nearly three times more to switch on a light at Alcatraz than it does in Sacramento. "We've found a place where solar is truly a competitive alternative," said SMUD General Manager Jan Schori. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 10:42:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03559 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:42:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA26637 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:40:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12602; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:35:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:29:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12128 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12124 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:29:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id JAA0000000589; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:35:08 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980205153711.006c758c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 09:37:11 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: floating slab Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAA12125 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1775 Hello listers, I would appreciate helpful comments on my latest foundation solution. Please bear with the following background—if you don’t want to read this, the specific question is in the second paragraph. For months now I’ve been fussing with possible choices for a foundation under a small, 24’x 30’ all SIP cabin I plan to begin this spring. The original site sloped 3’ over the 24’ width. I originally wanted to build it on piers but ran into too much rock at the lower edge of the site. Called in a geophysical engineer to talk to me about the soil and rock and fell into the ‘slab is the best, least expensive, obvious solution’ suggestion (he did not believe in FPSF by the way). Had the site flattened, with a nice berm in the back. Did research on a shallow slab foundation but gave up on that when I realized the up slope prevented proper perimeter insulation. Then fell back on the pier idea since now I have enough soil on the bottom edge in which to dig them----well compacted and sitting there through this mild winter. Having a difficult time getting specs on the floor SIP so that a foundation can be designed, but know that it will cost me a about $2900 for the floor panels plus the steel beams, the posts, the concrete etc and we have a pretty expensive, if nicely-insulated (R34) and tight foundation, still unengineered, which when I find someone who knows about SIPs will be another bill to add to the pier idea. Now, given these costs, I have another alternative: what do you think of my hauling in enough clean ¾ " gravel to build a flat 8" compacted pad on top of which I will put 3" of high density insulation on top of which I will pour a slab. Around three side sides (there remains a slight slope) I will put in a french drain to take water down slope. In other words, float the slab. Constructed this way will sacrifice the good insulation, but this is a very simple wood-heated-weekend-use cabin, (I plan to bring in utilities into a well insulted environment under a raised 10’x10’ platform, inside the cabin—have done this before and it works). If this idea floats with those of you who know more about this than do I, my major problem with it is to figure out some creative thing I can do to ‘retain’ the 8" gravel pad???? Over the years I can see it eroding—I suppose I can plan on regularly checking its condition and replacing gravel that has gone its way, but I would like better ideas, something to hold it in place along the sides of the cabin (the rear side, up slope will be against a bermed hill where there won’t be this problem). I’ve thought too of simply lining the edge with some of those locust or hedge logs we’ve cut out of our overgrown woods but this is going to look peculiar. Will appreciate comments on this whole idea. Thanks, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 11:01:04 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03837 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:01:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA02893 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:59:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13679; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:48:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13293 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:48:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13288 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:48:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA22346; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 07:53:17 -0800 Message-ID: <34D9DF87.17A7C930@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 07:49:27 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist:exhaust turbines References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1776 Some larger roofing supply outfits have turbines or access from yet another intermediate supplier. Amazingly no one has been able to supply manuf. information or any specifications on starting torque or calibrated exhaust rates or even able to supply me with much choice in design or size. I was a bit surprised to find that turbines were not even part of the products distributed by some of the larger environmental supply houses. (fairly decent supply of integrated solar fans). If well and predictably designed and manufactured turbines seem a good part of an exhaust strategy. I'll keep looking but would appreciate hearing of any relavent experience in their usage or names of some N.A. manufacturers. Is anyone familiar with vertical balanced flues - a product called windcatcher by Monodraught in the U.K. Thanks John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Phone the local hardware store or Revy. They usually have 2 US manufacturers. > Jorg > ___________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 11:11:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04132 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:11:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA07807 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:10:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14331; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:04:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:59:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13931 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:59:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13927 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:59:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA22487; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 08:04:30 -0800 Message-ID: <34D9E225.2F65A1AA@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 08:00:37 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: floating slab References: <1.5.4.32.19980205153711.006c758c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1777 You could form an edge with large boulders creating the effect of a natural rock ledge. If they are well seated (soil removed to exist rock or pounded with the backhoe) you could even lay 6" eps sheets with some kind of simple supporting formwork below (sand, gravel, rocks, etc) and pour directly on top. You would not have to fill the entire area simply enough material for support of the foam. If you use the gravel approach it does not have to be retained if it extends beyond the footprint and forms a natural (self retaining) slope - again an engineering requirement involved or you could do the calculations yourself. I think I still prefer the notion of conc. piers with a structural slab incorporating perimeter grade beams on top - slab supported on 6" EPS. Natural boulder edge is visually very nice but time consuming. Smaller rock will work loose laid following conventional laying techniques. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S.. David F. Lambertson wrote: > Hello listers, I would appreciate helpful comments on my latest foundation > solution. Please bear with the following background—if you don’t want to > read this, the specific question is in the second paragraph. For months now > I’ve been fussing with possible choices for a foundation under a small, > 24’x 30’ all SIP cabin I plan to begin this spring. The original site > sloped 3’ over the 24’ width. I originally wanted to build it on piers but > ran into too much rock at the lower edge of the site. Called in a > geophysical engineer to talk to me about the soil and rock and fell into the > ‘slab is the best, least expensive, obvious solution’ suggestion (he did not > believe in FPSF by the way). Had the site flattened, with a nice berm in > the back. Did research on a shallow slab foundation but gave up on that > when I realized the up slope prevented proper perimeter insulation. Then > fell back on the pier idea since now I have enough soil on the bottom edge > in which to dig them----well compacted and sitting there through this mild > winter. Having a difficult time getting specs on the floor SIP so that a > foundation can be designed, but know that it will cost me a about $2900 for > the floor panels plus the steel beams, the posts, the concrete etc and we > have a pretty expensive, if nicely-insulated (R34) and tight foundation, > still unengineered, which when I find someone who knows about SIPs will be > another bill to add to the pier idea. > Now, given these costs, I have another alternative: what do you think of my > hauling in enough clean ¾ " gravel to build a flat 8" compacted pad on top > of which I will put 3" of high density insulation on top of which I will > pour a slab. Around three side sides (there remains a slight slope) I will > put in a french drain to take water down slope. In other words, float the > slab. Constructed this way will sacrifice the good insulation, but this is > a very simple wood-heated-weekend-use cabin, (I plan to bring in utilities > into a well insulted environment under a raised 10’x10’ platform, inside the > cabin—have done this before and it works). If this idea floats with those > of you who know more about this than do I, my major problem with it is to > figure out some creative thing I can do to ‘retain’ the 8" gravel pad???? > Over the years I can see it eroding—I suppose I can plan on regularly > checking its condition and replacing gravel that has gone its way, but I > would like better ideas, something to hold it in place along the sides of > the cabin (the rear side, up slope will be against a bermed hill where there > won’t be this problem). I’ve thought too of simply lining the edge with > some of those locust or hedge logs we’ve cut out of our overgrown woods but > this is going to look peculiar. Will appreciate comments on this whole > idea. Thanks, Sacie Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 11:25:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04344 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:25:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA13050 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:24:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15347; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:18:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:12:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14717 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:12:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14713 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:12:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LHG09704; Thu, 05 Feb 1998 11:17:46 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:53:11 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Water Message-ID: <19980205.111723.15278.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-8 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1778 Hi, I have been following the thread of discussion on living vs. dead water. I am just wondering - what affect does this have re: the bottled water industry. Is this dead water we are all so avidly drinking? Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 11:26:13 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04349 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:26:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA13240 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:24:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15436; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:19:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:13:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14760 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:13:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14755 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:13:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LHH09704; Thu, 05 Feb 1998 11:17:46 EST To: bdhoward@ix.netcom.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:04:56 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Now for something totally different... Message-ID: <19980205.111723.15278.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <3.0.32.19980204211806.006ea474@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-6,10-14 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1779 Bion et al, I can emphathize with your plight of those who don't want to pay for advice. I get the same response here, with the added attitude of "why should I pay you to do my interiors - you should be doing it for the fun of creating". My only advice to you is find a niche and hang tough. Suggest that if they want it for free tha they provide their service to you for the same price. Tell them their time/service has the same value to you as yours to them. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 13:19:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00696 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:19:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA08828 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:18:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22578; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:12:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:00:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21688 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:00:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from saclink2.csus.edu (saclink2.csus.edu [130.86.82.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21652 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 12:59:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802051759.MAA21652@solstice.crest.org> Received: from PC-ANTHRO-04.mnh.csus.edu by saclink2.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA289021933; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:05:33 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "PE" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 09:42:28 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: dead water Reply-To: sac28787@saclink.csus.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1780 Further to George Kamburoff's point about 'dead' water, I recall reading as a child of sailors exploring 'new' (to them) lands for Market, God, and Country who, on stopping for water, favored still, icky-looking ponds over lively, fresh streams, because the water didn't spoil as fast. And some of the small group of raw/live food eaters like anaerobic soaking of wheat or other grains, whose tart endproduct they drink under the name Rejuvelac. Contradicting these and the Russian experiences, is it Chris Bird who speaks of swishing water so many seconds clockwise, then counter, in an oval vessel for 'living water?' It's like a biodynamic routine for valerian in compost piles. Contrary to one post, all minerals have valence levels reflecting potential for outer electrons to bond with others, and associated magnetic properties. This need not mean that magnets, swishing, live wires, or other work with the invisible have useful effects. Pyramid power (even orgone pyramids) won't work either, or refrigerators and pantries would by now be that shape. Pet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 13:36:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01104 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA14925 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23289; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:28:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:24:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22987 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:24:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22981 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:24:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.54 (pm1-22.hoosier.net [206.106.67.54]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA16906; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:25:46 -0500 Message-ID: <34DA041E.6DA7@bloomington.in.us> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 13:25:35 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bion D. Howard" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Now for something totally different... References: <3.0.32.19980204211806.006ea474@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1781 I used to do telephone consulting, but gave it up, primarily because of a lack of time. Most of our calls were from the general public. To over-generalize somewhat, these were primarily people who weren’t used to paying consulting fees. While most were used to paying high fees to their doctor, they just weren’t used to the idea of someone charging more than $5-10 for their time. Many would have “just a quick question” that took 20 minutes to ask, and much longer to answer. If their question was answered in some depth, and to their satisfaction, most were happy to pay a fee, but there were a few who wanted something for nothing. I suspect that many people think in terms of sharing information free because they probably do that with people who share their hobby. I also suspect that many back-to-nature people that grew up on Mother Earth News are like that. I think that sharing is great, but it doesn’t pay the bills. I often told people that if I didn’t charge for consulting, then I’d have to get a real job to put food on the table, and then I wouldn’t be able to answer their questions, because I wouldn’t be available. It’s difficult to decide where being helpful and friendly ends and being taken advantage of begins. I know one fellow who will talk for free for about five minutes, then he charges after that. Personally I’ve solved the problem by setting up a web site with reprints of articles, and by writing and publishing books. Many people are willing to buy a book, as long as it has the answers they need. For those who don’t even want to buy a book, I suggest that they ask their library to buy a copy. For those who don’t even want to read a book, there are a couple of non-profits that will answer questions by phone: the Environmental Health Clearinghouse is at 800-643-4794 and American PIE is at 800-320-2743. Of course, you usually can’t go into tremendous depth or into detailed specifics by phone (and you certainly can’t design a house over the phone), and many people still want the quick answer to the complex problem. I sympathize because I’d like the quick easy and answers too, but life just ain’t that simple. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 14:39:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01818 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:39:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA02005 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:37:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26393; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:31:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:27:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26047 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:27:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26042 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:27:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.108.221] (usrts5p221.port.net [207.237.108.221]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA14917 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:31:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802051931.OAA14917@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Orientation Issue ( B.Howard version) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 98 14:32:16 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1782 Bion Howard wrote: > don't ignore deviation (can I say this here?) -- if the building is >oriented "15 deg. East of South" (rotated eastward from a geographic >equatorial bearing in the Northern Hemisphere) be SURE you first have >corrected for magnetic deviation specific to your area! This can range >from 0 to +/- 12 deg. bearing in some areas (DC & Maryland are 7 deg. to 8 >deg, for example) Not to belabor a basic issue, I just want to make sure I understand correctly. You are saying the 15-20 degree window of acceptable solar orientation is off of the southern compass heading which has already been corrected for magnetic deviation, not off of true south. In my area the deviation is 16 degrees to the southeast, so the total amount I could stray from true south ( as shown on maps) would be from 16 deg to (31 - 36) deg (to the southeast perferably)......... correct? C. Dodge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 14:44:32 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01897 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:44:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA03938 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:43:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26814; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:36:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:33:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26471 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:32:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26453 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (se23.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.56]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA27444 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:38:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34DA1419.871@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 14:33:45 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: building codes and alternative building techniques Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1783 I thought perhaps this group might find the remarks I received from a friend (who is a codes officer) interesting and even thought provoking. She had just attended a conference near L.A. on the effects of alternative building techniques and how the codes might accommodate them and shared some thoughts with me that I thought were germane to much of what we have recently been discussing. She graciously has allowed me to quote her here. Her name, by the way, is Margo Thompson and I think she may be joining the group. She is also coincidently an old friend of Terry Brennan's also. Margo wrote: So, then on to the conference on Sustainable Building and the Building Code. Luckily, they didn't even open up the topic of "what is green?". As it was, we often spent way too long just discussing/deciding how we were going organize for the next discussion group. Actually, though, it was pretty good and I'm glad I went. I met some new people and if I continue working in code enforcement related fields, it is certainly a more interesting slant as compared to dealing with complaints about barking dogs and trying to mediate long-standing neighborhood feuds. There were many people there proclaiming straw bale and earthen - adobe, rammed earth, etc.- construction. Although I now know a little more about it than before and would not necessarily discourage someone if they wanted to do this, I am certainly not ready to jump on either of those band wagons -- especially for Upstate New York. There was quite a lot of discussion about just trying to make the building codes more open to alternative construction methods and to encourage more sustainable whole systems. I was in several groups re. trying to get life cycle analysis of new materials and systems into local and/or regional/national codes and ordinances. This, I think, is a good idea although a difficult one to implement -- especially at the national level. Incidently, powers that be in Building Codes are in the process of developing one national code, which I have heard that New York will also probably adopt. Anyway, it was kind of a shot in the arm to be involved in this although there still doesn't seem to be much paying work available. Anyway, a lot of the people who were there are making small inroads in their various communities. But, they are working within very regional and local situations and within a fairly narrow framework of individual choices. It just won't work for a lot of people in a lot of places. I was a little disappointed that more people weren't talking about how to improve upon some of the more conventional systems, e.g., wood, concrete, steel as well as more efficient use of water, natural landscaping, site, etc.. I think there are ways to do this and I think most people (builders and owners alike) will more readily accept this versus a straw bale house, etc. Anyway, I don't mean to be too critical as often there are parts of people's visions that may be more transferable. So, let me know what your thoughts are or if you have come across any "news" of this conference on the "green-line". _______________________________________________________________________ end of quoted material I didn't put this out to create a new debate about whether Strawbale is appropriae in New York or not, but to demostrate the movement that is beginning to show itself even in the area codes enforcement from the inside. Margo is always looking for an opportunity to extend her knowledge base in construction and ways to use that knowledge for positive change. She has a degree in Construction Engineering from Stamford and still finds herself pounding nails and doing codes enforcing in upstate NY, some of you undoubtedly know, women still have to fight for respect and position in the construction world. As a matter of fact the other reason she is on the west coast is to explore some professional opportunities, hopefully there are more to choose from out there. She'll kill me for being so personal here. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 14:51:21 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02000 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:51:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA06221 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:49:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27689; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:43:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:39:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27147 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:39:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27129 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:39:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip21.ivnet.net [206.101.73.181]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA28295; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 11:45:36 -0800 Message-ID: <34DA15DF.986EEBC0@ivnet.net> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 11:41:20 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: floating slab References: <34DA0C0E.747E@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1784 Chuck, the easiest way I know to insulate a poured wall is to tack the insulation to the inside of the forms before the pour. For a small building you can hang a 2x6 mudsill out over 2" foam with no problems, this makes it easier to put sheet metal over the foam for its protection. Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Sacie, > > Have you considered a poured key wall on the down slope end of slab? You > can insulate it before back fill and support your slab and stabalise the > site. > > Chuck > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 15:02:17 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA02784 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:02:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA24975 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:08:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25024; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:02:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:58:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24583 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:58:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24577 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:58:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (se23.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.56]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA19534 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:04:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34DA0C0E.747E@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 13:59:26 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: floating slab Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1785 Sacie, Have you considered a poured key wall on the down slope end of slab? You can insulate it before back fill and support your slab and stabalise the site. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 15:53:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA00511 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA04887 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:52:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01742; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:46:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:42:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01215 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:42:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mail.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.153]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01196 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:41:57 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4Ra0013829 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:43:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <394bbc57.34da2469@aol.com> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:43:19 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Subject: GBlist: Potable Hot Water in Baseboards Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 82 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1786 >>Anyone know the latest on whether it's okay/recommended/code- compliant/otherwise-kosher to use potable hot water (e.g. from a domestic hot water heater) for space heating (e.g. in baseboard heaters and/or radiant floor tubing)? Thanks in advance. Ian<< Ian The issues as I understand it are the corrosive nature of hot , aerated, water. In standard systems the air is eventually bled out and the water is less abusive. The interior of what the water goes through should be rated for potable water, i.e. the pumps are usually s.s. interiors so that rust is not in the system. I have a "radiator" built into my HRV with it's own fan/air handler system which heats my house if the wood stove is untended. The problems with it are properly sizing the water heater, installing a mixing valve on the domestic supply to reduce the risk of scalding (I turn up the heater to the max in the winter and down in the spring), and in my case venting off the natural gas which tended to "air" lock the system until I upsized the circulation pump and installed four vents through out the loop. My 50 gal, propane heater can supply about 28,000 BTU which is sufficient to maintain the temperature of the house (1750 s.f. house, 70 degree differential) although lag time to raise the temperature is loooong, and the periodic cold shower is an undesirable side effect. I have thought that perhaps a demand use hot water heater in line would have been a better solution than the reduced life span of a larger, hotter hot water heater and increased stand by losses. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave Assoc., Contractors Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 15:53:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA00512 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA04888 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:52:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01740; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:46:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:42:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01209 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:42:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01195 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:41:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA02539; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:47:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-112.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.112), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd002495; Thu Feb 5 13:47:27 1998 Message-ID: <34DA2514.5660A3F8@primenet.com> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 13:46:12 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "C. Dodge" CC: Greenbuilding List Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Orientation Issue ( B.Howard version) References: <199802051931.OAA14917@amsterdam.interport.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1787 Dear Clarence, I can help you here. The 15 degrees is East of true South (not magnetic). If you are using a corrected compass then it would be a maximum of 15 degrees from South. If you have to account for 16 degrees deviation (it would be East or West of North - no Southeast here) you must then add or subtract, depending on the case, the 15 degrees. Most maps use true North rather than magnetic; thus you would use 15 degrees cocked towards East on the map. I hope this isn't confusing. Just keep in mind it is a maximum of 15 degrees East of true South not magnetic South. Regards, John Wilson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 17:43:08 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA01837 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:43:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA10922 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:15:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03693; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:08:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:04:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA03125 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:03:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03119; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:03:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.240] (ka2-63.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.63]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA16861; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 16:09:10 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 10:06:11 -0500 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: Speireag Subject: GBlist: Re: no paper or ashes for the toilet Cc: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAB03120 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1788 Sgrìobh Speireag: >You said: "Well, there's at least one thing which *every* American household >probably has in sufficient quantity: paper. But you don't want to add >large sheets of paper to the pile. What about paper which has been >cross-cut shredded, so that it's just confetti? > > While I'm on the topic of things which many of us have, what about >ashes? Could you throw those in? Burning certainly deals with the bleach >and newsprint stuff, though not with plastic." Sgrìobh Jorg Ostrowski: ___________________________________________________________________________ >I live with a Phoenix composting toilet every day. Paper goes to the >recycling box for a few more rounds, NOY the toilet. Ashes are used when >the sidewalk gets slippery, then swept into the garden as fertilzer. >They do NOT go into the composting toilet. Wood shavings that normally go >to the landfill are spirited away into the composting toilet. That is the >reality of every life in our sustainable home and office, in an effort to >reuse resources in the most appropriate manner. >*************************************************************************** Jorg - Thanks for the input. I'm building on 56 acres, and the topsoil near the building site is pretty thin. All of my wood shavings which don't get used in some other way will go into the slow compost pile and eventually become soil on the site. I'll probably use ashes as you mention, and also to gentle the acidic soil for use in the garden. Certainly wood shavings will not be leaving the site. I want that organic material. However, I have no problem personally with using some quantity of the junk mail I receive, and the scratch paper which I've used twice on both sides, in the toilet, since I don't think that I'll produce enough sawdust and I would rather mulch the bark for other purposes. So, although it's not appropriate for you, it may be perfectly appropriate for me, if it will work. Trees come out of soil. Compost from a toilet becomes soil. The question I was asking is: will it work, or is there a hitch which I haven't considered? Thanks for any answers. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 17:43:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA01956 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:43:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA12769 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:08:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA29083; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:02:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:58:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28667 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:58:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28663 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:58:13 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 1YQVa05982 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:03:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:03:26 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Another Dilemma and Opportunity Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id OAA28664 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1789 Friends, I too am in need of professional advice (besides the free psychological analysis that several of you have already offered so kindly). I am in the beginning phase of a nine lot subdivision. My first project developing land. I want to build very green and promote the project as such. Background: The land is a twenty acre old hard scrabble New England farm with rocks, boulders and ledge outcroppings that made it uneconomical for agriculture about the time tractors and mowing machines replaced hand scythes. The land abuts the interstate so won’t bring top dollar for lots. It is located in my town, the fastest growing community in Massachusetts for the last several years. The layout I have come up with uses the old stone walls around the fields as lot lines wherever possible. All but two house sites have a southeasterly slope and are sheltered from a view of the highway by existing woods and hedge rows that I plan to protect. The local planning, conservation and other boards have decided that rather than have a progressive stance toward growth and change, the best way to slow the rate of growth is to add every expense and delay to a developer that they possibly can in order to discourage them. So, it takes a bit longer to get through the process and the price of house lots is skyrocketing in town, limitting what many people can affordably be put into a house. I know the right thing would be to pay interest on the note until labor values decrease enough that I can hire some ecologically inclined engineers to mow hay by hand. But I’m a little short on cash this century. In fact, rather than carefully building each home myself, I have to sell off a couple lots in order to swing the financing. I am thinking of restrictive covenants the exact opposite of most local projects: maximum house size instead of minimum, requiring solar clothes drying capacity vs outlawing clothes lines, requiring pre-wiring and pre- plumbing for solar dhw and photovoltaics, high minimum insulation and air sealing standards, req Rather than these kind of “got to” rules however, I would rather try the carrot approach. Any advise for designing, marketing and implementing such a venture? I’d even welcome more ideas for restrictive green covenants I guess. For those who agree that Bion is being rudely abused in his situation, I’d be more than happy to pay for good advice and experience that add value and a financial return that clearly outweigh their cost. Make a proposal. Thanks, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 18:20:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA02633 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA00344 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:18:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10217; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:11:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:06:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA09691 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:06:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09687 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:06:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA03659; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:07:49 -0800 Message-ID: <34DA455C.8DCAD9E2@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 15:03:56 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Beverly A. Weiter" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Water References: <19980205.111723.15278.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1790 In the case of the ozonated variety (a large percentage) it might be of some other benefit if was allowed to sit for a _long_ time. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > Hi, > > I have been following the thread of discussion on living vs. dead water. > I am just wondering - what affect does this have re: the bottled water > industry. Is this dead water we are all so avidly drinking? > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > Boca Raton, FL > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 19:49:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA00745 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:49:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA28237 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:47:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA15453; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:41:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:37:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA14984 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:36:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from pioneer.hmp.com (pioneer.hmp.com [38.184.171.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA14978 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 19:36:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by pioneer.hmp.com (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA19685; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:38:35 -0700 Received: from exc.hmp.com(192.168.1.1) by pioneer.hmp.com via smap (V1.3) id smac19671; Thu Feb 5 17:38:27 1998 Received: by carson.hmp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD325D.90050F80@carson.hmp.com>; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:43:26 -0700 Message-Id: From: Peter Baston To: "'John Bower'" , "'John Salmen'" Cc: "'Bion D. Howard'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Now for something totally different... Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 17:43:25 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1791 >---------- >From: John Salmen[SMTP:terrain@cow-net.com] >Sent: Thursday, February 05, 1998 4:00 PM >To: John Bower >Cc: Bion D. Howard; greenbuilding@crest.org >Subject: Re: GBlist: Now for something totally different... > >right on unfortunatley Johns experience is all to common. >When I was working with large conglomerates looking at prodcut development >right way rong way in the end the only way we got the $ sense across was to >run the comparison critical path of health benifits realised by making >correct equipment together with the original product and manufacture and >maintanace costs bringing the figures into the real world. Thse companies had >no problem paying top dollar then. Its nuts you get an architectural advisor >who has no problem charging $70/80 and hour and even in some cases a % of the >project fee but as soon as you me green enviroment consulting they seem to >bitch at minum wage scales. > >Where I came from in Rhodesia we dont call it green or environmental its >simply the best most logical way to operate. Good practice if you will. When >we would group it with all the above factors Cost/maint/health/productivity >and added all the benifits and compaired them with the deficits and moved the >figures up to the million$ area they shut up really quickly. > >Its another marketing aspect guys !!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 > >John Bower wrote: > >> I While most were used to paying high fees to >> their doctor, they just weren't used to the idea of someone charging >> more than $5-10 for their time. > >Ironically I recently did some environmental health consultation work for a >doctor (a wholistic practicioner) who I think took exception to my fees, he >definitely dropped enough hints as to our emerging friendship and their >'small' (relative to less wholistic doctors, but still large) budget. He >managed to do this while at the same time lecturing me on the (relative I >guess) importance of charging high fees for alternative work (and his >continuing surprise that it resulted in an increase in the size of his >practice). I don't like doing consultation work without having some control >over the design and construction process and have limited experience with >it when it concerns specific health issues. It simply feels too frustrating >to provide information without being able to affect and guage the changes >but I suspect part of the frustration is the relatively small value people >place on the fundamental information and the work that is involved in >turning that information into some kind of relavent knowledge base >especially when personal health is an issue. >I would like to commend both John and Bion for being relative pioneers in >developing two facets of the public information base and image for >greenbuilding and creating some good models for the practice. > >John Salmen >TERRAIN E.D.S. > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 20:21:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA01557 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:21:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA01146 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10701; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:15:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:11:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA10140 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:11:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10124 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:10:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA03598; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:04:25 -0800 Message-ID: <34DA4491.747A2B00@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 15:00:33 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Bower CC: "Bion D. Howard" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Now for something totally different... References: <3.0.32.19980204211806.006ea474@popd.ix.netcom.com> <34DA041E.6DA7@bloomington.in.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1792 John Bower wrote: > I While most were used to paying high fees to > their doctor, they just weren’t used to the idea of someone charging > more than $5-10 for their time. Ironically I recently did some environmental health consultation work for a doctor (a wholistic practicioner) who I think took exception to my fees, he definitely dropped enough hints as to our emerging friendship and their 'small' (relative to less wholistic doctors, but still large) budget. He managed to do this while at the same time lecturing me on the (relative I guess) importance of charging high fees for alternative work (and his continuing surprise that it resulted in an increase in the size of his practice). I don't like doing consultation work without having some control over the design and construction process and have limited experience with it when it concerns specific health issues. It simply feels too frustrating to provide information without being able to affect and guage the changes but I suspect part of the frustration is the relatively small value people place on the fundamental information and the work that is involved in turning that information into some kind of relavent knowledge base especially when personal health is an issue. I would like to commend both John and Bion for being relative pioneers in developing two facets of the public information base and image for greenbuilding and creating some good models for the practice. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 20:21:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA01574 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:21:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA05057 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:38:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA11853; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:32:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:28:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA11332 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:28:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mail.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.152]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11328 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:28:07 -0500 (EST) From: Marcoplos@aol.com Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4SKUa13562 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:33:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <517808de.34da4c3b@aol.com> Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:33:13 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Some positive news Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1793 Houston Residents Show Dramatic Shift About Future Energy Sources During Deliberative Polling' Directed by UT Austin Professor AUSTIN, Texas, Feb. 5 /PRNewswire/ -- A random sample of more than 200 Houston residents last weekend voted strongly in favor of using more renewable energy, such as wind and solar power, after deliberating for a day and a half about ways to satisfy the area's future electricity needs. The Deliberative Poll(R) conducted by Professor James Fishkin, director of the Center for Deliberative Polling(R) at The University of Texas at Austin, was commissioned by Houston Lighting and Power (HL&P) to help determine the opinions of its customers. Under Texas regulations, electric utility companies must consult the public before asking the Public Utility Commission for permission to build or acquire new energy sources. The PUC mandated that scientific samples of the public should be consulted after they had had a chance to become informed in an interactive process. Deliberative Polling has become the process of choice under these criteria. Fishkin said the already strong support for renewable energy and conservation increased dramatically after the poll participants were exposed to several hours of informed discussion with competing experts, commissioners of the Texas Public Utility Commission and representatives of HL&P. Before the weekend, 51 percent of the sample believed HL&P should use more renewable energy such as wind and solar power, and 48 percent wanted more energy efficiency programs. After the deliberations, 76 percent supported more renewable choices, and 64 percent wanted additional energy efficient programs. Respondents also were asked whether they would be willing to pay more on their monthly bills to support "electric generation using renewable technologies such as wind and solar power." Before the weekend, a majority were not willing to pay anything more. After the weekend, a majority said they were willing to pay at least $6.50 a month more. Deliberative Polling allows a random, representative sample of citizens to become informed on the issues and come to a considered judgment, Fishkin said. The process was pioneered in the United States at the National Issues Convention held on the UT Austin campus and broadcast on PBS in January 1996 with presidential candidates and Vice President Al Gore. The event was hosted by Jim Lehrer and reached about 10 million viewers. Now, the method is playing a role in the policy process in the state of Texas. The Center for Deliberative Polling, housed in the UT Austin's department of government, is working with the Public Utility Commission and regulated utilities throughout the state to provide for informed citizen consultation on electric utility matters. Scientific random samples of the public have been brought together by Central and Southwest Company to discuss policy issues affecting regulated public utilities in Corpus Christi, Abilene, and Shreveport, La. A similar sample was brought together in El Paso by El Paso Electric Company. The samples, after a weekend of deliberations, have made recommendations that have been incorporated into public policies or "Integrated Resource Plans" that utility companies file with the Public Utility Commission of Texas. Unprecedented investments in renewable energy, such as wind and solar power, as well as in conservation ("demand side management") have resulted from the first three Texas Deliberative Polls on electric utility matters. The Deliberative Polls on electric utility matters in Texas revive an ancient form of democracy-selection by lot for groups of a few hundred to deliberate together on public policy. "Only in ancient Athens some 2,400 years ago did large-scale random samples deliberate together to make important public decisions," said Fishkin. SOURCE University of Texas at Austin ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 20:21:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA01587 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 20:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA07473 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:48:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12873; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:41:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:37:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA12196 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12189; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:37:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA05743; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 15:42:40 -0800 Message-ID: <34DA4D88.10BF002F@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 15:38:48 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag CC: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: no paper or ashes for the toilet References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1794 Speireag wrote: > However, I have no problem personally with using some quantity of the > junk mail I receive, and the scratch paper which I've used twice on both > sides, in the toilet, since I don't think that I'll produce enough sawdust > and I would rather mulch the bark for other purposes. So, although it's > not appropriate for you, it may be perfectly appropriate for me, if it will > work. Trees come out of soil. Compost from a toilet becomes soil. > > The question I was asking is: will it work, or is there a hitch which > I haven't considered? Thanks for any answers. > The conventional line is that paper can generally be recycled 7 or so times before the fibres become too fragmented to bind. White or bleached paper is a premium at times as it is already a 'bleached product' requiring less subsequent processing if it can be separated from or form a large percentage of the general mix. (amazing some of the weird biases towards whiteness). So the junk mail may be a benefit in a recycling mix as it lessens the use of chemical processes but could be a toxic element in your environment as it contains residues of not just the bleaching process but of materials used in ink manufacture heavy metals, etc. A totally different perspective may think that the more generalized distribution of such materials in our environment may be a better solution for dealing with potential of toxicity and in view of some of the potential dangers of recycling and the continuation of the toxic chain that represents there is some validity in this perspective but I want to know more about the remediative aspects or potential of scattered toxicity before I start littering. In the meantime try and get off the junk mail lists and start peeing in the woods to encourage some nitrogen stabilizers (hardwoods) As a composting amendment paper would have to be shredded into smaller pieces or it may smother the mix. Here is a list of suitable amendments (and some of the reasons) that I have on file. I wish I could credit the author but I don't have that information. Best John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. The enzymes that the aerobic bacteriaproduce to break down larger organic molecules into simple oxidized molecules that can be utilized by plants forgrowth prefer simple sugars, starches and complex carbohydrates to woody cellulose and lignin found in treeproducts. We emphasize "prefer" because toilet paper, peat moss, wood shavings will break down; it will takelonger and could fill the toilet faster with un-composted additives.NO ANIMAL, POULTRY OR FISH PRODUCTS.PLANT ORIGINATED MATERIALS ONLY! NO OILS OF ANY KIND. THESE MATERIALS ARE NOT HELPFUL.A small handful per person per day is a good rule of thumb. More or less will not be a problem. However, addingadditional matter to the toilet can reduce the capacity to process excrement and will shorten the retention time in the composting process. This means emptying more often and lower treatment security.Control fruit flies with a fine mist of soap and water (2 tablespoons per gallon of water) make direct contact with the them. Diatomaceous earth (a natural mineral) works very well, dust it onto the surface of the compost.Add spoiled vegetable foods or left-overs from the house rather than purchasing special materials. The size is important so shred or chop additives into 1/4 inch pieces. Leaves could mat down causing loss of air space, so be cautious. The following is a list of materials in order of ease of digestion by the resident microbes:1. SugarsFructose is a fruit sugar, so add spoiled or dried apples, melons, bananas, coconut meat, pears, raisins, figs, etc. Rinds generally break down more slowly than the pulp so shred them well. Avoid citrus peels (orange, grapefruit lemons) as they impede the breakdown process.2. StarchesPotatoes (peels too), yams, taro, pumpkin, squash, pasta (cooked or uncooked).Corn is both a sugar and a starch so add dried or spoiled corn kernels and stale popped corn as they aerate and provide nutrients for the microbes. You could add the corn cob, but it must be well shredded.Kale (broccoli) and all vegetables and stalks work well too.3. Complex carbohydratesCereals (including all breakfast cereals), grains, (wheats, oats, rice, alfalfa) bread and biscuits (crumbs and slices) crackers, burned and stale popcorn, etc.Pelletized or loose horse and cattle animal feeds.4. CelluloseWood shavings, fine shredded bark and leaves or small chips (not red cedar, eucalyptus wood or birch or pine bark or other woods that inhibit biological decomposition) and no saw dust, as it is too fine and will compact like flat, un-shredded leaves.Toilet paper (white, no perfume) finely chopped news print (no colors or glossy paper), plain brown corrugated, dry wood pulp from a paper mill, wood pellets for stoves.Finely chopped straw, hay, alfalfa, pea straw, kenaf, etc.5. MineralsMinerals will not break down but they can help aerate the compost. However, minerals such as horticultural grade pearlite and vermiculite work well as bulking or aerating agents. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 22:33:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA01418 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA18049 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA23199; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:25:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:20:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA22855 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:19:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA22850 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:19:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.20] (blf20.acadia.net [205.217.217.20]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA20556 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:25:36 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:23:34 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Re: Floating Slab Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1795 We've done several of these, and had them engineered. Proper insulation and drainage are crucial but so is the compaction of the fill under the slab. Sacie, as you work out how to place fill and insulation under the slab, I recommend you have a compaction test done on the fill before you pour. Our experience is that you should place the fill in no more than 8" lifts, and compact with plate compactors or power tampers each lift. But the compaction test is really necessary. You'll find outfits to do this in the Yellow Pages. Here in Maine, it usually costs a couple hundred bucks. Well worth it. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 5 23:08:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA02104 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 23:08:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA03212 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 23:07:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA24610; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 23:01:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:57:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA24177 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:57:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24172 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:57:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id V\K24534; Thu, 05 Feb 1998 21:19:12 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: 71673.3643@compuserve.com Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 18:57:24 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Paradigm Message-ID: <19980205.185839.3438.4.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <3.0.32.19980204211806.006ea474@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,9,18-20,22-23,27-31 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1796 I have experience with one large builder who is showing me where alternative technology gets stopped and where it gets used: The builder in question does meet the Model Energy Code for many houses, as well as uses some "green" practices- due to lower cost, practicallity, as well as client demand. however they are "afraid" of using the E-star program because it is too much for them to read for them to understand the program. MEC isnt as complicated for them- an engineer calculates the required values and they build the home. Estar requires audits done on every home (or some percentage) and setting a track record. The parade of homes for this year is demonstrating many energy/green/technology breakthroughs- some as a requirement to enter the parade, and some encouraged, and some just for show. this is one wonderful way to influence the general public- as i attended last year's event- and i couldnt count how many people were there (more than many festivals and concerts i have been to) though as a knowledgable person in the field i would not consider these houses to meet our standards, i do feel this is someone's effort to educate and encourage alternative building. (maybe i can get in and man the house during the parade?) all of this is a start- and the upcoming events may be crucial to this continuing- as they are the largest homebuilder in Colorado. The one reason they resist new products is because the building departments are unfamilaiar with them. if they have "ICBO approved" they are much more likely to fly. I suggest anyone "in" with these folks guide them a little. Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 09:01:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA08459 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:01:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA20401 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07693; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:54:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:50:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07461 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:50:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07457 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:50:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sa26.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.155]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA27494 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 08:56:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34DB1552.3ACA@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 08:51:14 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: floating slab References: <34DA0C0E.747E@dreamscape.com> <34DA15DF.986EEBC0@ivnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1797 Bruce wrote: > > Chuck, the easiest way I know to insulate a poured wall is to tack the > insulation to the inside of the forms before the pour. For a small building > you can hang a 2x6 mudsill out over 2" foam with no problems, this makes it > easier to put sheet metal over the foam for its protection. Bruce, In this case your insulation would be on the inside of the foundation, therefore no need to have a mud sill. The outside of the foundation being exposed on the downhill face. Do you strip the form material after the pour or just bury it? If the later, it seems terribly wasteful. Sacie, I would second David's caution about site prep, I have seen floating pads fail miseably as a result of poor site selection, improper drainage or settling. It sounds like your biggest challenge may be stabalizing the site. How much slope are you dealing with? What are the soil types and ground water conditions? The biggest danger is that your floating pad will do just that, float. Your tied to the site only by inertia. This is not to say that I haven't ever seen them work, there just not big favorites of mine. There are circumstances where they are acceptable, I'm not sure I would choose a sloped site and building on fill. Insulating the perimeter of the slab is also somewhat problematic. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 09:27:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09544 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:27:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA29979 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:25:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08758; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:19:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:16:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA08390 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:15:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08384 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:15:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sa26.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.155]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA03178 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:21:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34DB1B55.301A@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:16:53 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: (no subject) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1798 One of these days I'm going to actually proof read what I write BEFORE I send it. Miserable with an r, you're and they're may be substituted in the appropriate places. As to punctuation, fix that as best you can. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 09:59:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA11055 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:59:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA11870 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:58:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10441; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:51:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:47:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09976 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:47:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09972; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:47:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA09058; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 07:52:09 -0700 Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 07:52:08 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Speireag Cc: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List Subject: GBlist: Re: no paper or ashes for the toilet In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAB09973 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1799 Further to your last question below, anything biodegradable will work. I would keep the glossy paper out of it. Jorg **************************************************************************** On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Speireag wrote: > > Sgrìobh Speireag: > > >You said: "Well, there's at least one thing which *every* American household > >probably has in sufficient quantity: paper. But you don't want to add > >large sheets of paper to the pile. What about paper which has been > >cross-cut shredded, so that it's just confetti? > > > > While I'm on the topic of things which many of us have, what about > >ashes? Could you throw those in? Burning certainly deals with the bleach > >and newsprint stuff, though not with plastic." > > Sgrìobh Jorg Ostrowski: > ___________________________________________________________________________ > >I live with a Phoenix composting toilet every day. Paper goes to the > >recycling box for a few more rounds, NOY the toilet. Ashes are used when > >the sidewalk gets slippery, then swept into the garden as fertilzer. > >They do NOT go into the composting toilet. Wood shavings that normally go > >to the landfill are spirited away into the composting toilet. That is the > >reality of every life in our sustainable home and office, in an effort to > >reuse resources in the most appropriate manner. > >*************************************************************************** > > Jorg - > > Thanks for the input. I'm building on 56 acres, and the topsoil near > the building site is pretty thin. All of my wood shavings which don't get > used in some other way will go into the slow compost pile and eventually > become soil on the site. I'll probably use ashes as you mention, and also > to gentle the acidic soil for use in the garden. Certainly wood shavings > will not be leaving the site. I want that organic material. > > However, I have no problem personally with using some quantity of the > junk mail I receive, and the scratch paper which I've used twice on both > sides, in the toilet, since I don't think that I'll produce enough sawdust > and I would rather mulch the bark for other purposes. So, although it's > not appropriate for you, it may be perfectly appropriate for me, if it will > work. Trees come out of soil. Compost from a toilet becomes soil. > > The question I was asking is: will it work, or is there a hitch which > I haven't considered? Thanks for any answers. > > -Speireag. > > 0>>>>>>(--------------------- > Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) > Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. > Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig > agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 10:23:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11380 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:23:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA19847 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11465; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:15:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:11:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11143 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:11:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11137 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:11:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:11:35 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 4809 invoked by uid 0); 6 Feb 1998 15:17:35 -0000 Received: from ppp-5.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.198?) (198.175.11.198) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 6 Feb 1998 15:17:35 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: no paper or ashes for the toilet Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1800 Speireag, I've spent a lot of time on issues of "solid waste management", in particular in efforts to find better alternatives to things like landfills and incinerators. Composting can be a much better solution but in my opinion only when done carefully. The indescriminate mixing of waste materials is almost sure to lead to problems. When you throw all the detritus of modern society into a landfill or incinerator you end up with a hopeless mix that can not be made non-toxic. In particular, toxic heavy metals are elements and can not be destroyed. Heavy metals are found in an incredible array of consumer products. Every electronic gizmo uses lead solder. Lead, cadmium, and mercury are added to plastics. Lead and cadmium are used in inks and pigments which might still be used in some of the paper you want to compost. There are no laws prohibiting their use! Just a few years ago Consumer's Report found incredibly high levels of lead in the printing inks on plastic bread bags. So, if lead is commonly found in food packaging, I would have little confidence that junk mail senders would even bother to ask their printers what is in their inks. And the message "printed with soy based inks" found on "eco-friendly" printing hardly reassures me. Just as with paints, the carrier may be soy bean oil, but what about the pigments and solvents!??? And, all catalytic converters for wood stoves specify not to burn any paper as they will clog the converter just like using leaded gasoline in a car will clog your car's catalytic converter. Composting is sometimes called "slow burning". Printers will say they have voluntarily reduced the use of toxic materials in their inks, and research I have seen shows that is true. However, there are no laws mandating that inks be toxin-free and as the Consumer Reports tests found, there are still serious exceptions to the general trend. So, I would not add any printed paper to a composting toilet. Cadmium in particular is known to accumulate in food crops and can result in toxic vegetables. And would you really want to spread toxic heavy metals and other chemicals around your land? Better to try to reduce junk mail being sent as much as possible and to then recycle the rest. At least some recycling mills are able to separate the inks from the paper and dispose of that ink sludge in a more secure manner than spreading it around your property. Happy composting, Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 10:46:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11622 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:46:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27849 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:44:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12649; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:34:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12258 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:34:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from tower.ti.com (tower.ti.com [192.94.94.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12248 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:34:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from reliant.micro.ti.com ([158.218.63.15]) by tower.ti.com (8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA21473; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:39:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from admin2.micro.ti.com (postmaster@admin2.micro.ti.com [158.218.63.17]) by reliant.micro.ti.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07485; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:39:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from aspc0662.micro.ti.com ([158.218.60.160]) by admin2.micro.ti.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-42073U700L2S100) with SMTP id AAA10136; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:39:43 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980206094339.006b3234@pcmail.micro.ti.com> X-Sender: aeyn@pcmail.micro.ti.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:43:39 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Alan J. Eynon" Subject: GBlist: realty anecdote Cc: "Alan J. Eynon" In-Reply-To: <199802060700.CAA29476@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1801 Hi, Thanks to everyone on the list who responded to my request several weeks ago to find a green builder in Dallas. I'm well on my way to building a suitable home. A view from the consumer side: Last night, I received a phone call from my realtor, warning me against the perils of "small builders". "You really don't know whether they're going to be around to finish what you've paid for," she said. She then tried to re-direct me to the large, conventional builders doing cookie- cutter subdivisions at the leading edge of the urban sprawl. I wasn't receptive to her message, although I think it was offered in genuine concern on her part - best not to stray too far from the herd's beaten path. Those of us who want good designs will forge on, but it seems to me that green building designs won't be accepted as standards for good building practice as long as the realtor multitude continues to sell the safety of building a conventional home. Lacking education of the issues, most people would rather opt for whatever everyone else is building. Alan Software Development Systems, Stafford, Texas Instruments, +1 281-274-2943 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "For it is a habit of mankind to entrust to careless hope what they long for, and to use reason arbitrarily to thrust aside what they do not fancy." -- Thucydides, _The Peloponnesian War_ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 11:43:06 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA12439 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:43:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA22277 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:41:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16615; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:35:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:31:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA15978 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:31:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15974 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:31:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov (mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.26]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA00225 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:36:44 -0500 Received: by mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD32F3.7F69E510@mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov>; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:36:43 -0500 Message-ID: From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Alan J. Eynon'" Cc: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: RE: GBlist: realty anecdote Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:36:39 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1802 Alan said: >Those of us who want good designs will forge on, but it seems to me >that green building designs won't be accepted as standards for good >building practice as long as the realtor multitude continues to sell >the safety of building a conventional home. Lacking education of the >issues, most people would rather opt for whatever everyone else is >building. as a sustainable realtor-to-be, it will be interesting to find out what safety and security i can offer buyers that would push them toward appropriately-sized "green" housing. so far, i'm only aware of some long-tem financial advantages to creating conservation easements. any other suggestions? what exactly is this approach offering conventional folks, other than lower utility bills? olivia james >---------- >From: Alan J. Eynon >Sent: Friday, February 6, 1998 10:43 AM >To: greenbuilding@crest.org >Cc: Alan J. Eynon >Subject: GBlist: realty anecdote > >Hi, > >Thanks to everyone on the list who responded to my request several weeks >ago to find a green builder in Dallas. I'm well on my way to building >a suitable home. > >A view from the consumer side: > >Last night, I received a phone call from my realtor, warning me against >the perils of "small builders". "You really don't know whether they're >going to be around to finish what you've paid for," she said. She then >tried to re-direct me to the large, conventional builders doing cookie- >cutter subdivisions at the leading edge of the urban sprawl. I wasn't >receptive to her message, although I think it was offered in genuine >concern on her part - best not to stray too far from the herd's beaten >path. > >Those of us who want good designs will forge on, but it seems to me >that green building designs won't be accepted as standards for good >building practice as long as the realtor multitude continues to sell >the safety of building a conventional home. Lacking education of the >issues, most people would rather opt for whatever everyone else is >building. > >Alan > > >Software Development Systems, Stafford, Texas Instruments, +1 281-274-2943 >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- >"For it is a habit of mankind to entrust to careless hope what they long > for, and to use reason arbitrarily to thrust aside what they do not fancy." > -- Thucydides, _The Peloponnesian War_ >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 12:53:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13692 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:53:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25772 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:51:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21687; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:46:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:41:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21092 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:41:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21087 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:41:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust238.tnt1.clearwater.fl.gt.uu.net [208.255.243.238]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id LAA00846 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:47:04 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34DB4D06.2CFD@gte.net> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 12:48:54 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Greening of Realtors Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1803 Dear Listers, I came across this notice in the St. Petersburg Times and wondered if similar programs have been started elsewhere. If so, please pass on info. "Sell Green and Profit" An 11-hour continuing education program for real estate sales associates deals with environmentally friendly development, energy efficiency, water conservation and environmental landscape management. Topics include "Curb Appeal: Selling the Environmentally Friendly Landscape" and "The Building: Passive Design Features and Green Materials that Work for Your Client." Cost $50 for three sessions. For more info call the Pinellas County Cooperative Extension Service at 813-582-2100. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 12:59:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13772 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:59:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA28686 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:58:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22132; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:52:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:48:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21774 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:48:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21769 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:48:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.106.130] (usrts3p130.port.net [207.237.106.130]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA02611 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:52:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802061752.MAA02611@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Orientation Issue ( B.Howard version) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 98 12:53:02 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" cc: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1804 John Wilson wrote: >The 15 degrees is East of true South >(not magnetic). > Most maps use true >North rather than magnetic; thus you would use 15 degrees >cocked towards East on the map. >Just keep in mind it is a >maximum of 15 degrees East of true South not magnetic South. OK... thats clear enough > But then you go on to explain that...... >If you are using a corrected compass In my case then magnetic north is 16 deg to the west of true north...... ergo magnetic south would be 16 deg to the east of true south > then it >would be a maximum of 15 degrees from South. are you referring back to the uncorrected south here ,or if you are referring to the corrected (magnetic) south here, which it sounds like you are since your sentence began >>If you are using a corrected compass<< then that south is already 16 deg to the east of true south due to deviation correction and if one adds 15 deg to that (corrected) south then we're up to the 31 deg off the original uncorrected true south. I know I'm being difficult here on an issue which is kindergarten to everyone else.....my apologies...... but the first part of your explanation seems contradictory to the second part. What am I misunderstanding in the details? This degree of detail is of concern to me because of what Bion Howard had to say below: > 3. don't ignore deviation (can I say this here?) -- if the building is >oriented "15 deg. East of South" (rotated eastward from a geographic >equatorial bearing in the Northern Hemisphere) be SURE you first have >corrected for magnetic deviation specific to your area! This can range >from 0 to +/- 12 deg. bearing in some areas (DC & Maryland are 7 deg. to 8 >deg, for example) Thanks Clarence Dodge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 13:50:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14712 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:50:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA23055 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:49:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25198; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:43:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:39:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24584 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24579 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:38:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NUS11758; Fri, 06 Feb 1998 13:41:42 EST To: james3@niehs.nih.gov, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:41:30 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: realty anecdote Message-ID: <19980206.134133.9054.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6,9-10,13,15,18-19,23,25-29 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1805 Olivia, One of the biggest concerns I am seeing among my clients is the problem with finding homes that are either allergy or chemically-safe. Many more people are aware of the problems associated with carpeting, for example and are looking for a wider array of flooring options in new housing. Most of these options can be sold at a slight upcharge by pointing out that they are easier to maintain, longer lasting and usually will not require outside personnel for cleaning ( a savings in itself). In addition, for the buyer with small children or those who are elderly, both the chemicals in new carpet and the fact that as carpet ages it can harbor dust mites, mold spores and other nasty stuff, along with the fact that the very young and the elderly have weakened immune systems, offering flooring alternatives is an investment in their longterm health. The exception to this is vinyl flooring which outgases for long periods of time. The non-toxic paint would probably be a harder sell, as would the dangers of vinyl wallcovering. The one thing that might be a selling point, especially based on the current TV commericals for Maytag, is the horizontal axis washers to save water. Along that same vein would be built-in water filters and pool ozonators. Almost everyone I know, environmental or not, invests in a water filter. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 13:50:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14716 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:50:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA23070 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:49:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25204; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:43:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:39:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24597 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:39:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24577 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:38:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip14.ivnet.net [206.101.73.174]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA05118; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:44:25 -0800 Message-ID: <34DB5906.4EA1073E@ivnet.net> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 10:40:07 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: floating slab References: <34DA0C0E.747E@dreamscape.com> <34DA15DF.986EEBC0@ivnet.net> <34DB1552.3ACA@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1806 Chuck, I wish I could email a sketch! In the case of a slab with footings around the perimeter, the foam is tacked to the inside of the forms, and there is only one line of forms around the pour. All of the forms are outside the building footprint, and are easy to strip. The foam is just barely tacked to the forms so that the forms can be easily stripped away from it. When the forms are stripped the insulation is left exposed. All slabs should have treated mudsills in contact with the concrete because of the high probability of rot there. I use a closed cell foam (sill seal) at this joint to minimize air infiltration, I wonder whether this could provide a sufficient moisture barrier to prevent rot, but I've never had the nerve to change. Ideas, anyone? I heartily agree about compaction, fill which has been placed without compaction will remain loose for twenty years or more. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Bruce wrote: > > > > Chuck, the easiest way I know to insulate a poured wall is to tack the > > insulation to the inside of the forms before the pour. For a small building > > you can hang a 2x6 mudsill out over 2" foam with no problems, this makes it > > easier to put sheet metal over the foam for its protection. > > Bruce, > > In this case your insulation would be on the inside of the foundation, > therefore no need to have a mud sill. The outside of the foundation > being exposed on the downhill face. Do you strip the form material after > the pour or just bury it? If the later, it seems terribly wasteful. > > Sacie, > > I would second David's caution about site prep, I have seen floating > pads fail miseably as a result of poor site selection, improper drainage > or settling. It sounds like your biggest challenge may be stabalizing > the site. How much slope are you dealing with? What are the soil types > and ground water conditions? The biggest danger is that your floating > pad will do just that, float. Your tied to the site only by inertia. > This is not to say that I haven't ever seen them work, there just not > big favorites of mine. There are circumstances where they are > acceptable, I'm not sure I would choose a sloped site and building on > fill. Insulating the perimeter of the slab is also somewhat problematic. > > Chuck > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 14:13:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA15021 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:13:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA00934 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:07:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26223; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:02:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:58:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25884 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:58:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25880 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:57:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id NAA0000020639; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:03:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980206190535.006e5b88@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 13:05:35 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Re:insulating forms etc( was floating slab) Cc: builder@ivnet.ne Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1807 Re the insulating slab thread and the following post from Bruce--there are a couple of articles with good illustrations about the details to which Chuck is referring in the Journal of Light Construction, August 97 and Sept 96. The former is about a modification of the shallow foundation technique Sacie Lambertson >Chuck, > I wish I could email a sketch! In the case of a slab with footings around the >perimeter, the foam is tacked to the inside of the forms, and there is only one >line of forms around the pour. All of the forms are outside the building >footprint, and are easy to strip. The foam is just barely tacked to the forms so >that the forms can be easily stripped away from it. When the forms are stripped >the insulation is left exposed. All slabs should have treated mudsills in contact >with the concrete because of the high probability of rot there. I use a closed >cell foam (sill seal) at this joint to minimize air infiltration, I wonder >whether this could provide a sufficient moisture barrier to prevent rot, but I've >never had the nerve to change. Ideas, anyone? > I heartily agree about compaction, fill which has been placed without >compaction will remain loose for twenty years or more. > Bruce Donelson > A Better Builder > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 14:25:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA15483 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:25:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA07645 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:23:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27199; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:17:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:13:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26714 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:13:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26708 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06248 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:19:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:19:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from asy2.vineyard.net(199.232.92.42) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma006236; Fri Feb 6 14:19:17 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Foley's dilemma Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1808 Nice work David, nice result, success stories always welcome. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 14:25:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA15489 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA07871 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:24:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27254; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:18:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:14:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26762 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:14:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26751 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:14:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06358 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:19:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:19:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from asy2.vineyard.net(199.232.92.42) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id smaa06236; Fri Feb 6 14:19:31 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Economy and Growth Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1809 For those of you who are interested in issues of economic growth in relation to our lives and planet (and have a little time on your hands), this may be of interest. I sat in on one of these discussions with Herman Daly about his book "Beyond Growth" and it was an eye opener. >Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 14:32:51 -0700 (MST) >From: Don Roper >To: friends-of-sustainable-economics@csf.Colorado.EDU >Subject: Seminar on Economic Growth >Mime-Version: 1.0 > >SEMINAR ANNOUNCEMENT: GROWTH ILLUSION > with Richard Douthwaite > >The seminar consists of the searchable web site > http://csf.colorado.edu/sustainable-economics/ >plus a moderated listserv or forum in which the public is invited >to participate in conversation with the author (instructions below). > >The seminar with Richard Douthwaite is for one week: February 18-25, 1998 > >The subtitle of the book is > How Economic Growth has Enriched the Few, > Impoverished the Many and Endangered the Planet > >When it first appeared in 1992, _The_Growth_Illusion_ was short-listed >for what was, at the time, the world's richest literary prize, the >International GPA Book Award. The author and journalist, Richard >Douthwaite, from Westport, Ireland, is now working on a second edition >to be published in 1999. > >According to Hazel Henderson, _The_Growth_Illusion_ is > "A breakthrough! An honest economist willing to go public on why > pursuing economic growth formulas leads societies not toward > development, but to disaster. Douthwaite joins the growing ranks of > researchers in other disciplines -- from chaos theory and systems > dynamics to biology, ecology, anthropology and thermodynamics who for > decades have reached similar conclusions." > >According to James Downey: > A terrific book, splendidly written and meticulously researched. > I have no hesitation in calling Richard Douthwaite one of the best > environmental journalists in the world. > >For more information about the book, please see > http://csf.colorado.edu/sustainable-economics/ >and http://www.gn.apc.org/books/politics.htm > > >To participate in the seminar or to listen, please send the request > > subscribe sustainable-economics Yourfirstname Yourlastname > >To: LISTSERV@csf.colorado.edu >All email distributed through this listserv will be carefully moderated >and the discussion will last for one week, Feb 18-25. > > >_The_Growth_Illusion_, published by Council Oak Books, >is being sold at a reduced price of $15 prior to the seminar. >Please call 1-800-247-8850 to order your copy. > > >If you have QUESTIONS about the Seminar, please write > Douglas.Hinrichs@csf.colorado.edu >or Don.Roper@csf.colorado.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 14:36:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA15657 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:36:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA12686 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:34:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27872; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:28:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:24:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27553 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:24:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27549 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08480 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:30:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-090.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.90), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd008449; Fri Feb 6 12:30:09 1998 Message-ID: <34DB6476.98095EEA@primenet.com> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 12:28:54 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Passive Solar Orientation Issue ( J. Wilson version)] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------76E329198F4E9366FC165159" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1810 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------76E329198F4E9366FC165159 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------76E329198F4E9366FC165159 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <34DB62AD.79050410@primenet.com> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 12:21:18 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "C. Dodge" Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Orientation Issue ( B.Howard version) References: <199802061752.MAA02611@amsterdam.interport.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Clarence, No problem about trying to understand - it is difficult regardless of grade level. The 15 degrees maximum deviation from directly South relates to "true South." By corrected compass I mean after you have adjusted it for local deviation - at this point you would look to 15 degrees East of "ture South." Clarence wrote: ...>>If you are using a corrected compass<< then that south is already 16 deg to the east of true south due to deviation correction and if one adds 15 deg to that (corrected) south then we're up to the 31 deg off the original uncorrected true south. By "corrected compass" I am referring to a compass with a bezel that will swivel to account for deviation and thereby will present the South indication as "true South." In this case you would only go 15 degrees. If you are using a fixed bezel compass you will, in fact, simple look to 31 degrees East of South and be correct as you have described above. I hope this is clear and don't be afraid to ask for still more explanation if it is not. Regards, John Wilson Prescott, AZ. --------------76E329198F4E9366FC165159-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 15:05:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA15995 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:05:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA23774 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:03:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29603; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:57:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:53:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA29173 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:53:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29169 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:53:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from van-52-2131.direct.ca (kadulski) [207.227.242.31] by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0y0tvG-0002y7-00; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:58:50 -0800 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Potable Hot Water in Baseboards & Fees discussion Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 09:45:46 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1811 > From: Caaradrbl@aol.com > > >>Anyone know the latest on whether it's okay/recommended/code- > compliant/otherwise-kosher to use potable hot water (e.g. from a domestic hot > water heater) for space heating (e.g. in baseboard heaters and/or radiant > floor tubing)? Thanks in advance. > Ian<< > There has been some concern about circulating potable water through floor tubing, especially issues of prolonged periods of stagnation in the cycle during the non heating season (i.e. potential for growth of legionella, etc.). I think the jury is still out on this. However, most radiant floor tubing is not rated for potable water (and it should be piping with an oxugen barier). The best way is to have a heat exchanger between the radiant loop and the water heater, so that the radiant loop is closed loop of water. [This is the setup I've used in my own home, and is also sanctioned by our codes] I believe it makes sense to do the same with baseboards. As for fan coil loops, they are copper piping, and close to the water heater (i.e. a short loop) it should not matter that potable water is circulated. [again, the second zone in my own house is heated with a forced warm air fan coil unit, so I have a loop right off the water heater, circulating potable water, and no problems] Re: the discussion on fees: This seems to be a too frequent occurance. Part of the dilema, I believe, is that we as a society have become used to getting "free advice" too frequently. Of course the "free" advice never is, as it gets built into product pricing, but is invisible, so that when people are asking for information, they are not used to paying for professional services. This is especially a problem in the residential sector, where consulting services on many issues are modest, and are bundled in with product sales/service. Of course, homeowners don't recognize it, and come to believe that it is always free. What they don't recognize is that most of the "consulting", "Design" or "advice" really isn't that impartial, but strongly directed to sales of that company. I haven't heard of many "consultants" for Sears, or whichever other company is providing the service telling a homeowner not to buy a given product or service, even though it may be useless or counterproductive in a given situation, and may well be the correct advice to give. This comes down, one again, to the need to create a paradign shift (to use jargon) - to change these freebie, lowest cost mentality that seems to reign. ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seymour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 15:16:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA16194 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:16:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA27226 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:14:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00552; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:08:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:04:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00218 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:04:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheetah.pacinfo.com (root@cheetah.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00210 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:04:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (p08.tc1.pacinfo.com [208.129.29.8]) by cheetah.pacinfo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20633 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:10:27 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Conversation with last message X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Clan Handley" Subject: GBlist: Fees discussion & paradigm shifting Date: Fri, 06 Feb 98 11:57:54 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA00215 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1812 > > This comes down, one again, to the need to create a paradign shift (to use > jargon) - to change these freebie, lowest cost mentality that seems to > reign. Am I getting this right. Y'all want a paradigm shift to mass support of greenbuilding and sustainable design and you want people to PAY you to have their minds changed? That ain't never gonna happen. As to whether or not you get "paid" for your "free" advice, that depends on the currency you are using. If we are going to truly make a shift to sustainable living we have to shift our currency from one of economics to one of support. Give support<>get support. Under those terms, it isn't free and you are getting paid. Paid by the building of true community and changed minds. I do understand that people to make a living and I'm not advocating that y'all just give away your expertise, but the goal of educating people about greenbuilding practices, and the goal of getting paid for consulting might be mutually exclusive. At least when you are talking about the average joe "I throw my lawn clippings in the trash" homeowner. Barbara http://www.angelfire.com/or/ishmael Ishmael -- Resources for Further Study ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 23:26:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA02252 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:26:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA26986 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 22:02:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18157; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:56:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:52:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17924 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:52:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17919 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:52:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA04464 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:59:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 6 Feb 1998 18:55:54 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: BUILDER REVIEWS To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id VAA17921 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1813 Alan Eynon's note--he said his realtor had advised him to stick with a big, established builder--caused me to wonder if this list could establish a searchable archive for (small?) builders who are knowledgable and trustworthy; builders who have an established ability to build a planet-healthy home for you, for a fair price, in a reasonable time limit. I don't know if there would be legal issues involved if the archive listed negative views about certain builders, but that might be worth exploring, too. I suppose the biggest drawback, at this point, is that there are so few professionals who participate on this site, the odds are against one of them knowing about YOUR area. But I wonder if this idea has any merit, and if anyone has any ideas/suggestions. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 23:28:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA02752 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:28:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA03363 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:31:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15447; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:25:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:21:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15198 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:21:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin51.mx.aol.com (mrin51.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.161]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15194 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:21:15 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin51.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id UAA29850 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:26:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:26:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980206202628_842936232@mrin51.mx> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Recycled Paper Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1814 Slightly off topic, but... Does anyone know of a non-chlorine bleached 100% post-consumer recycled paper that costs in the neighborhood of $18.00 per 1,000 11" x 17" sheets? We were publishing the _EcoBuilding Times_ on Incentive 70lb, then 60lb, but sources for both have dried up, and other options are dramatically more expensive. Thanks. Rob Harrison Editor, _EcoBuilding Times_ --a publication of the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild-- http://www.ecobuilding.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 23:28:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA02837 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:28:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA07023 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:45:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15978; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:40:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:36:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15682 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:36:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15677 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:35:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.108] (pa-ppp23.hevanet.com [204.119.60.108]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18225 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:41:35 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <627015b7.34dbaeb6@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:40:14 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: GBlist: Recycled Content Guides Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1815 My favorite guide to recycled content materials is the GREBE, Guide to Resource Efficient Building Elements, published by the Center for Resourceful Building Technology in Missoula Montana (406)549-7678. The GREBE includes good descriptions of each product that help evaluate its potential for your project, saving you some time and effort on the phone. The GREBE also benefits from Steve Loken and Tracy Mumma's many contacts around the nation--they are great networkers. Mike >In a message dated 98-02-06 18:06:00 EST, you write:< Hi. I'm looking >specifically for recycled-content building products. Especially post >consumer recycled content. So far, the Harris Directory was pretty good, >and the Oikos on-line directory was OK, but I was wondering if anyone >knows of any other resources, especially in California. >> > Recycled-ContentProduct >Database: Introduction This site is free from Californnia DOC and combines >Harris Directory and the following dbase. Only drawback is it only gives 5 >firms in response to a search. The >Recycling Data Network This is a subscription service but between it, >oikos and Harris Directory, that's quite a bit. >Sweet's Home Page Doesn't have a search for recycled products but >individual company web sites have good information.In addition Alameda, SF >and LA have some level of help and directories from either the county or >city recycling offices. Hope it helps, Phil Bailey >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building >News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to >greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants 4233 SW Corbett Avenue Portland, OR 97201 (503)222-2303 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 23:28:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA02852 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:28:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA10273 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:58:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA16681; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:52:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:48:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA16231 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:47:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA16227 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:47:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA25275; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:53:19 -0800 Message-ID: <34DBBDB3.4BEA730F@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 17:49:39 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bnartist@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: And now for something at a ridiculously low price, we're almost giving it away - I can't believe we're doing this for 3 days only. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1816 I have to work on that paraphrase but I apologize I'm going to use a lot more words. Romer's understanding goes well beyond the kind of jingoist free market stuff thats been touted on this list. His relationship of objects to ideas is the first cultural or historical relavence that I think economics has experienced in a long time. In other words there does feel to be some basic simple self evident truth about the paucity of objects and the potential of ideas (i.e. existence, relationships, etc) as limitless. The problem that Romer does not full address is that we value objects more than ideas. We do not accept a concept, idea, or word as an object (unless we are exceedingly hungry, horny or cold and wet) and move on rather each idea becomes fetishized in some quasi technological process of empirical construction, marketing and eventual evolution. This process stifles both our understanding of the relationship of the idea to want (an older economic concept) and of the relationship of the object to our needs. In other words to satisfy some basic needs we have to go through a hell of a rigamarole that is consuming lifetimes and generations of resources. Romer seems to think that if we inject or speed up the technological process we will eventually resolve ourselves to the scarcity of resources. I think by that time they will be run dry. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Bnartist@aol.com wrote: > The work and ideas of economist Paul Romer is relevant to this thread. > > http://www.wired.com/wired/4.06/features/romer.html > > Selective paraphrase: > Objects are scare. Ideas are nearly limitless. People with ideas can > reconfigure objects endlessly. Production/ reproduction is cheap. Research > costs must be paid for while the information needs to be cheap enough to > encourage use. > > Greg Flynn > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 23:29:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03319 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:29:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA21417 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:50:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA13382; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:44:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:40:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA12976 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:40:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.169]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12965 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:40:07 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id GULAa14251; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:45:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <627015b7.34dbaeb6@aol.com> Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:45:40 EST To: plin@gsa.mail.co.alameda.ca.us Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: FW: GBlist: re: alternative building systems Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1817 In a message dated 98-02-06 18:06:00 EST, you write: << Hi. I'm looking specifically for recycled-content building products. Especially post consumer recycled content. So far, the Harris Directory was pretty good, and the Oikos on-line directory was OK, but I was wondering if anyone knows of any other resources, especially in California. >> Recycled-Content Product Database: Introduction This site is free from Californnia DOC and combines Harris Directory and the following dbase. Only drawback is it only gives 5 firms in response to a search. The Recycling Data Network This is a subscription service but between it, oikos and Harris Directory, that's quite a bit. Sweet's Home Page Doesn't have a search for recycled products but individual company web sites have good information. In addition Alameda, SF and LA have some level of help and directories from either the county or city recycling offices. Hope it helps, Phil Bailey ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 23:29:45 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03358 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:29:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA29243 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:15:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA14751; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:09:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:05:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA14285 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:05:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA14273; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:04:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA24534; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:10:24 -0800 Message-ID: <34DBB3A3.2AC86EE7@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 17:06:43 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "strawbale@crest.org" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Strawbale buildings on coast north of Vancouver? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1818 A while back I responded to Jorg's question with some comments about Vancouver Island and a lack of straw. I also mentioned that early settlers used wattle and daub chimney construction. I initially thought that method was choses for laziness (we do not have an inspiring history of settlement past or current). After actually thinking about it I realized there are some benefits to clay straw mixes for unlined chimney construction (I would appreciate if anyone has any references for this - hist. curiosity) which shows that people are not half as lazy as they should be. Now it is possible that settlers raised some grains for consumption, bedding, or simply as cover but we do have some reed grasses that are harvested (on a limited scale) Canary (sp?) grass is a local one that I am familiar with. Does anyone have any information on the use of reed grasses in building - the more historical the better. The first cut of a reed grass is approx. $2/bale as opposed to imported straw at $10-12. My interest is primarily materials that can be added to wood chips (much more available) to improve the potential of matrix mixes. Also does anyone have any information on the use of wool fibre as an amendment. Thanks John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 23:29:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03386 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:29:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA15320 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:27:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12433; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:22:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:18:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA12095 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:18:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12089 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:17:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA21179; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:23:17 -0800 Message-ID: <34DBA89A.9D4B891B@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 16:19:38 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: "David F. Lambertson" , greenbuilding@crest.org, builder@ivnet.ne Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:insulating forms etc( was floating slab) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1819 Hi Jorg A nice detail. The wall is bearing on the slab (wide wall)? not on the foam or is there a footing detail that supports both. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > You said: "I've used higher density eps 2-3" as a partial gasket" > *************************************************************************** > In our own work we often use 9.5" rigid EPS as our edge-of-slab thermal > break (floor is heated with radiant heating) and slab formwork. No wood > formwork to build and then dismantle. In this way the the exterior edge of > EPS is flush with exterior finish of the wall above. > ____________________________________________________________________________ > Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. > - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > - college campus and office tower recofit under construction > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 > Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > _____________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 23:29:47 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03391 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:29:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA23968 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:58:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA13919; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:52:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:48:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA13619 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:48:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from bminet.bminet.com (root@console.bminet.com [207.170.27.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA13615 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:48:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from clearned.bminet.com (dial4.bminet.com [207.170.27.4]) by bminet.bminet.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA26914 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:14:45 -0600 Message-Id: <199802070114.TAA26914@bminet.bminet.com> From: "Chuck Learned" To: Subject: GBlist: available worker Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:51:14 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1820 Greetings, I just joined your Greenbuilding list and happy to be here. My family is in the planning stages of building a Natural Home. We are interested in helping somebody for a week or so on a project(s) that would reflect the skills and experience we need to develop. We would be open to one or more projects if the logistics would work out. This year is our time to search for land and work on the basic preliminary steps and next year will be our building time. That said we are available potentially any time this year for assisting you. Experience that I currently have is limited. As far as Natural Building. I did attend last years 5 day Natural Building Colloquim. I worked on the straw bale structure, the Cob structure, assisted with the earthen floor. I have been studiously reading the strawbale and cob building books. I have very basic carpentry experience. I will be attending the NE Natural Building Colloquim in June. I have also been studying and have attended demonstrations on cordwood construction and underground construction. The house we build will be energy independent and hopefully we will employ the Watson(Pumice) Wick for Septic. The house we will build will be a hybred to fit the land and resources of the Midwest. Sooooooooo given this, I/we are interested in getting our hands dirty and helping you out this year. Since all aspects from foundation to applying natural plasters and paints, to installing solar and wind applications, septics etc must be practiced we are open and interested in your ideas and projects. The most ideal situation is where our family could come together (My partner Linda and my seven year old homeschooled son). Linda is quick learner and a good folk singer. We can provide for our own lodging if need be and prepare our own meals. Simple and rustic living is expected. We are slowly trying to develop an intentional living community, we are flexible, take directions, do dishes etc. Save this message. Keep us in mind. We could be available as early as March and we will fly or drive to your site if the project is right. In Peace, Chuck Learned Email Address: clearned@bminet.com Mail Address: w8976 Ripley rd. Cambridge WI 53523 Phone: 608 423-3031 ------------------------------------------------------ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 23:31:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03735 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:31:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA12277 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:16:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11661; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:10:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:06:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11315 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:06:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11311 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 19:06:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA127404; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:09:40 -0700 Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:09:40 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: "David F. Lambertson" , greenbuilding@crest.org, builder@ivnet.ne Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:insulating forms etc( was floating slab) In-Reply-To: <34DB9F1E.DCC3A585@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1821 You said: "I've used higher density eps 2-3" as a partial gasket" *************************************************************************** In our own work we often use 9.5" rigid EPS as our edge-of-slab thermal break (floor is heated with radiant heating) and slab formwork. No wood formwork to build and then dismantle. In this way the the exterior edge of EPS is flush with exterior finish of the wall above. ____________________________________________________________________________ Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 23:31:59 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03775 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:31:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA04593 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:47:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10533; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:41:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:37:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA10214 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:37:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10208 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:37:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA20441; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:42:51 -0800 Message-ID: <34DB9F1E.DCC3A585@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 15:39:11 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, builder@ivnet.ne Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:insulating forms etc( was floating slab) References: <1.5.4.32.19980206190535.006e5b88@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1822 I've used higher density eps 2-3" as a partial gasket either imbedded into the concrete (if the concrete is the finished floor) or placed afterwards on top of the concrete. Depending on the thickness/permeance of the foam a closed cell gasket or poly strip could be used on top of the foam but my preference is the more permeable foam. The compressive strength is there and there is also an ability for the foam to absorb and release moisture. I think there is higher direct moisture potential from within the wall assembly and as a result of splashback than directly from the concrete. I don't use a sill plate detail very often but would prefer a strip of drain mat to reduce contact area and allow for air contact than using a pressure treated product. I've used eps because it seems like it can to some degree provide a drain path as well as insulating. > All slabs should have treated mudsills in > contact > >with the concrete because of the high probability of rot there. I use a closed > >cell foam (sill seal) at this joint to minimize air infiltration, I wonder > >whether this could provide a sufficient moisture barrier to prevent rot, > but I've > >never had the nerve to change. Ideas, anyone? > > I heartily agree about compaction, fill which has been placed without > >compaction will remain loose for twenty years or more. > > Bruce Donelson > > A Better Builder > > I'm not crazy about the notion floating a slab for Sacie's project as she has described it. I would float a slab on water or on some ground conditions that resemble water but it seems like a tremendous amount of work, material and uncertainty for building on a slight slope. My vote would be a slab on pier support, whether the piers are concrete on rock, on a pad, or are made of large pinned rock whatever is handiest. A square foot of 6" of type II eps with an Rvalue just under R30 costs about 1.40 provides a good vapour barrier and as formwork requires little additional temporary support. The spans of the building can easily be accommodated with just edge pier support with a 3" reinf. slab with thickened reinf. edge and perhaps a central beam detail as well. John Salmen TERRAN E.D.S. > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 23:33:44 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA04356 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:33:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA23534 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:06:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09117; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:00:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:56:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA08450 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:56:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from msmail.co.alameda.ca.us (msmail.co.alameda.ca.us [166.107.250.98]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08438 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:55:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802062255.RAA08438@solstice.crest.org> Received: by msmail.co.alameda.ca.us with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id <1FXMS1LT>; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:04:49 -0800 From: "Lin, Paul, GSA-Recycle" To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Water Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:01:00 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1823 Did anyone keep the URL to the site about "live" water - how it braids, it's flow, etc.? I had it, but lost it. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 23:33:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA04381 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:33:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA22733 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:03:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08772; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:58:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:53:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA08244 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:53:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.165]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08238 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:53:18 -0500 (EST) From: Bnartist@aol.com Received: from Bnartist@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4MGDa27294 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:58:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:58:54 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: And now for something completely free Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1824 The work and ideas of economist Paul Romer is relevant to this thread. http://www.wired.com/wired/4.06/features/romer.html Selective paraphrase: Objects are scare. Ideas are nearly limitless. People with ideas can reconfigure objects endlessly. Production/ reproduction is cheap. Research costs must be paid for while the information needs to be cheap enough to encourage use. Greg Flynn ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 23:33:53 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA04427 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:33:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA23620 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:06:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09136; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:00:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:56:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA08451 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:56:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from msmail.co.alameda.ca.us (msmail.co.alameda.ca.us [166.107.250.98]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08439 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 17:55:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802062255.RAA08439@solstice.crest.org> Received: by msmail.co.alameda.ca.us with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id <1FXMS1L4>; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:04:49 -0800 From: "Lin, Paul, GSA-Recycle" To: greenbuilding Subject: FW: GBlist: re: alternative building systems Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 15:00:00 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1825 Hi. I'm looking specifically for recycled-content building products. Especially post consumer recycled content. So far, the Harris Directory was pretty good, and the Oikos on-line directory was OK, but I was wondering if anyone knows of any other resources, especially in California. ---------- From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: alternative building systems Date: Wednesday, February 04, 1998 8:03AM Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 19:04:32 -0500 From: Ray Doucette Subject: GBlist: alternative home's hi there all I'm new to this group I'm located in ottawa and would like any and all in formation that you would like to share with me about 1) Rammed Earth 2) straw bale 3)stack wall 4) wind power generation 5) solar power generation i'm availuating these as possability's for a home i'm designing/building for my self in eastern ont area Ray - You're asking a BIG question....It might be a good idea to check your local library first. There are lots of good books on these topics. Or go to the Amazon.com website, where you can purchase books over the internet. Also, if you search the Internet, you'll find that most of these topics have mailing lists and discussion groups. - Patrick ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 23:35:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA04880 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:35:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA23945 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:34:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA04989; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:28:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:24:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04614 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:24:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA04606 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:24:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA11443; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 13:29:33 -0800 Message-ID: <34DB7FDA.C427C9EA@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 13:25:46 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Clan Handley CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Fees discussion & paradigm shifting References: Conversation with last message Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1826 Clan Handley wrote: > > > As to whether or not you get "paid" for your "free" advice, that depends on the currency you are using. I like this statement and I would definitely like to borrow it. I was flamed privately for not doing my share in national debt reduction hysteria (as in not charging enough, not earning enough, not paying enough taxes. . . ?) It gave me the thought that if an LCA was done on my life effort my work might be a better contribution than any taxes paid on a higher output of more generic work that would probably cost the world more to undo at some point. Clear as mud right. I remember Hal once posted some interesting LCA thoughts or data on the real cost of just getting to work much less the imbedded costs of the culture of work itself. I remember reading that it took less than 3 days per week for most aboriginal cultures to provide for themselves; shelter, food, etc. I could use 30 and still question the quality of my provisions. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 6 23:35:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA05037 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 23:35:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA16005 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:10:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03928; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:04:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:00:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA03645 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:00:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from pioneer.hmp.com (pioneer.hmp.com [38.184.171.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03639 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:00:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by pioneer.hmp.com (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA22677; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:02:05 -0700 Received: from exc.hmp.com(192.168.1.1) by pioneer.hmp.com via smap (V1.3) id sma022675; Fri Feb 6 14:02:01 1998 Received: by carson.hmp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD3308.62885A20@carson.hmp.com>; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:06:14 -0700 Message-Id: From: Peter Baston To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Hard Water Conditioning Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 14:06:13 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1827 >---------- >From: sbtauto@juno.com[SMTP:sbtauto@juno.com] >Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 1998 4:41 PM >To: pbaston@pioneer.hmp.com >Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org; larry48@flash.net >Subject: Re: GBlist: Hard Water Conditioning > >Sot of not right if you look at the large industrial power systems which in >fact work similarly to anodes on a ship. When the polarity of the water is >changed in the bypass for some reason the sediments and calcium and lime >disipate and stick to the bypass core. That how the big units work. How does >it work. well thats another story but it does. Try it out if you do not >believe me. > >rgds peter > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 7 00:30:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA05646 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 00:30:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA11190 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 00:29:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA23586; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 00:23:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Feb 1998 00:19:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA23325 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 00:19:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA23321 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 00:19:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.183] (1Cust183.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.183]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA29093 for ; Fri, 6 Feb 1998 21:24:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802070524.VAA29093@italy.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: BUILDER REVIEWS Date: Fri, 6 Feb 98 21:27:54 -0000 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1828 In the upper left hand corner of the map, we have the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild. Under the guidance of Rob Harrison, the Guild publishes Green Pages, which is just such a list. There are a dozen or more similar organizations in all corners of the US (Canada, Austrailia, and the UK, too, I bet). I think maintaining a reliable list of individual builders is very difficult. However, I'd be happy to post a list of these _organizations_ on Oikos, if folks will submit the info (Address, phone, fax, contact person). Anyone interested should contact me via private email. Bruce >Alan Eynon's note--he said his realtor had advised him to stick with a big, >established builder--caused me to wonder if this list could establish a >searchable archive for (small?) builders who are knowledgable and >trustworthy; builders who have an established ability to build a >planet-healthy home for you, for a fair price, in a reasonable time limit. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 7 17:24:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA02353 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:24:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA17881 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 15:10:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13192; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 15:04:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:59:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12701 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin39.mx.aol.com (mrin39.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.149]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12690; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:59:27 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin39.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA21407; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 15:04:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 15:04:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980207150439_1888907342@mrin39.mx> To: strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Viga sizes? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1829 >> They'll be supporting a layer of half-inch plywood, and then a maximum of 110 pounds per square foot (bales plus snow load). Can anyone tell me how big around the vigas need to be? << Find a local licensed structural engineer to size those for you. They could probably do it in an hour or so of consulting time, and you'd be sure your roof would stand up over the years. Rob Harrison Seattle *** Robert Harrison Architects http://members.aol.com/rhdesign --lyrical sustainable design-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 7 17:24:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA02421 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:24:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA17853 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 15:09:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13186; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 15:04:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:59:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12711 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:59:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin52.mail.aol.com (mrin52.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.162]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12702 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:59:31 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin52.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA14719 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 15:04:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 15:04:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980207150443_1010371789@mrin52> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: BUILDER REVIEWS Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1830 Bruce said... >>In the upper left hand corner of the map, we have the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild. Under the guidance of Rob Harrison, the Guild publishes Green Pages, which is just such a list.<< Just to be clear, I just edit the Green Pages! The Guild is guided by its membership and an elected board of directors... The Green Pages also lists architects, designers, manufacturers, consultants, builders, subcontractors and suppliers who are members of the Guild. To order a copy call 206.622-8350. Jean said... >>there are so few professionals who participate on this site<< I disagree. I suspect _most_ of the people who participate in these discussions are building professionals. Most who supply answers anyway, if not those asking questions. I recognize many names from conferences I've attended, articles I've read in EDU, EBN, Fine Homebuilding, Journal of Light Construction, etc. The level of expertise on this list is incredible. Rob Harrison Editor, _EcoBuilding Times_ --a publication of the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild-- http://ecobuilding.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 7 17:25:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA02987 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:25:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA19859 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:26:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10129; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:21:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:17:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA09833 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:16:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09828 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:16:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.2] (iplink2.crocker.com [205.246.4.2]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA23775 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:21:35 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:27:01 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1831 Jean Gallagher wrote... "I suppose the biggest drawback, at this point, is that there are so few professionals who participate on this site,"... Jean, do you know this as a fact ... or a supposition? When this list began about 18 months ago its contribution cohort was almost entirely green building professionals. I hope we have not slipped this far in such a short time. Actually, I think that quite a high proportion of the list would rank as "professional". Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 7 17:26:53 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA03616 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:26:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA17467 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:17:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09658; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:11:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:07:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA09330 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:07:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09326 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:07:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.2] (iplink2.crocker.com [205.246.4.2]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA23313 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:12:02 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 13:17:21 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: (Trying not to)... rapidly lose it Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1832 Dear Bion and all others who feel his pressure. It is most important that those with skill and experience in this (or any) field charge for their time. The world around us values things at the price paid. If we charge nothing ... that will be the value of our product - despite all the protestations of those with short-term agendas. We will be wasting our time; those seeking our experience will come unprepared to take advantage of what ever we have to offer; our "product" will wander and wither in the wilderness. What a great future! Trying-to-stay-calm in Massachusetts ... Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 7 17:26:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA03638 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:26:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA07080 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 12:37:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07898; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 12:31:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Feb 1998 12:27:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA07529 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 12:26:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07523 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 12:26:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.113] (ub12.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.109]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA01104 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 12:32:47 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 12:38:57 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1833 John, Thanks for the post on Herman Daly. There's also an ecological-economics list which covers some common ground with GBList and provides a lot of insight into economic fundamentals. They were having a similar dialogue to our environment - economics thread at the same time we were. In addition there is frequent discussion of current activities, like the Multilaterial Agreement on Investment and International Money Fund loans, which have direct bearing on the ecological and economic quality of more people's lives than any ten governments. I suggest this list to anyone who's interested in the common roots of ecology and economics. To subscribe send a message: SUBSCRIBE ECOL-ECON Your Name to: listproc@csf.colorado.edu - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 7 17:28:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA04438 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:28:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA18945 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:30:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05291; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:21:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05062 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:20:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05057 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:20:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.113] (ub16.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.113]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA18877 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:26:51 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34D916FA.EFFFF060@cow-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:32:59 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist:exhaust turbines Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1834 John, Are you interested in the passive exhaust turbines that are spun by the wind? If so they are available from Graingers. Also, I tested a number of different passive stack terminations in a wind tunnel years ago to determine flow-delta P characterisitics for different wind speeds. I didn't find the spinning turbines to be much more effective than an open stack or the hooped jobs sold for wood stove chimneys. As I recall, the now defunct Southeastern Solar Energy Center in Georgia did a similar study with similar results years ago. If you're interested, I could look the studies up in my archives. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 7 17:29:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA04879 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:29:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA14500 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:11:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04665; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:05:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:00:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04199 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 10:59:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.storm.ca (root@www.storm.ca [207.245.225.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04191 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 10:59:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from storm.ca (storm02p14.storm.ca [207.245.246.142]) by mail.storm.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA05685 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:05:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34DC8603.86C028AD@storm.ca> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 11:04:19 -0500 From: Ray Doucette Organization: Earth homes Canada (WWW Info Center) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: sorry Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0C861797F39E2230D92F1DFF" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1835 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0C861797F39E2230D92F1DFF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi there all, i'm sorry for the lack of direction on most of my past question's, please be pation with me, i'm trying to much at one time, i promise to try to limit my question's in the future to a more defineable and answerable format ;-) Ray Doucette --------------0C861797F39E2230D92F1DFF Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Ray Doucette Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Ray Doucette n: Doucette;Ray org: Earth Homes Canada adr: ;;;Ottawa;Ont,;;Canada email;internet: ray@storm.ca x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------0C861797F39E2230D92F1DFF-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 7 17:29:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA04886 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:29:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA14499 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:11:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04662; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:05:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:00:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04183 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 10:59:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.storm.ca (root@storm.ca [207.245.225.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04179 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 10:59:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from storm.ca (storm02p14.storm.ca [207.245.246.142]) by mail.storm.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA05676 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:05:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34DC85F3.FDA77B76@storm.ca> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 11:04:03 -0500 From: Ray Doucette Organization: Earth homes Canada (WWW Info Center) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: rammed earth insulation possibilitys Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7488B83B78AE664F06BAC07E" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1836 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7488B83B78AE664F06BAC07E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi ... can any one here tell me if it's possable or practical to place 2 piece's of 2" rigid foam insulation overlaping eachother, in the middle of a rammed earth wall as it is being build, to greatly increse the north wall insulation value ??? any thought's --------------7488B83B78AE664F06BAC07E Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Ray Doucette Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Ray Doucette n: Doucette;Ray org: Earth Homes Canada adr: ;;;Ottawa;Ont,;;Canada email;internet: ray@storm.ca x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------7488B83B78AE664F06BAC07E-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 7 17:29:47 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA05020 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:29:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA26015 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:57:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02850; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:51:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:47:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02611 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:47:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from perham.eot.com (perham.eot.com [206.9.124.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02603 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 09:47:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from eot.com (perham-109.dialup.eot.com [206.147.16.149]) by perham.eot.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id IAA03440 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 08:57:24 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 08:57:24 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802071457.IAA03440@perham.eot.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail and News for Macintosh - 1.1 (34) Subject: GBlist: "alternative" homes From: Bruce Brummitt To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1837 Ray, I would agree with Patrick...do as many searches via the library/bookstores/internet/newslists on the subjects you've mentioned and then when/if you have specific questions, ask away. What I'd like to add is that we've incorporated all the items you mentioned with the exception of rammed earth in our construction/utility projects, our home/business included. I will vouch for their practicality, beauty and simplicity. As you do your planning try to keep in mind all of the items you include in your house...that includes furniture materials, flooring, etc...many which are made with materials that outgas "stuff" you wouldn't care to breathe. Bruce Cheryl Valois and Bruce Brummitt 46N56' 95W20 Visit the Natural Building Gallery *********** Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 19:04:32 -0500 From: Ray Doucette Subject: GBlist: alternative home's hi there all I'm new to this group I'm located in ottawa and would like any and all in formation that you would like to share with me about 1) Rammed Earth 2) straw bale 3)stack wall 4) wind power generation 5) solar power generation i'm availuating these as possability's for a home i'm designing/building for my self in eastern ont area Ray - You're asking a BIG question....It might be a good idea to check your local library first. There are lots of good books on these topics. Or go to the Amazon.com website, where you can purchase books over the internet. Also, if you search the Internet, you'll find that most of these topics have mailing lists and discussion groups. - Patrick ___________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 7 17:29:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA05084 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:29:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA13991 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 08:43:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01283; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 08:37:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Feb 1998 08:33:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01038 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 08:33:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01034 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 08:33:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93026; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 06:38:05 -0700 Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 06:38:05 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Marcoplos@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: conservation/PV Utility? In-Reply-To: <517808de.34da4c3b@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1838 You said: "AUSTIN, Texas, Feb. 5 /PRNewswire/ -- A random sample of more than 200 Houston residents last weekend voted strongly in favor of using more renewable energy, such as wind and solar power, after deliberating for a day and a half about ways to satisfy the area's future electricity needs." ****************************************************************************** Does anyone know of a small independent utility company providing electricity in an urban setting, through a combined strategy of DSM (demand-side-management) to reduce consumption through conservation and renewable supply by photovoltaics possibly with the incentive of emissions trading? _____________________________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 7 17:30:08 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA05174 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:30:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA20416 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 06:19:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA29188; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 06:13:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Feb 1998 06:09:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA28812 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 06:09:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA28808; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 06:09:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.84] (ka2-84.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.84]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id GAA03183; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 06:14:50 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 06:14:32 -0500 To: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List From: Speireag Subject: GBlist: Viga sizes? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id GAB28809 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1839 Hello, all. I am building a temporary workshop in order to get my hand in and give myself a workspace for the house. Interior short dimension is 9 feet, exterior 12 feet (straw bale). Vigas (peeled poles) of beech and/or maple every 2 feet on center, overhanging two feet to the outside on each wall. They'll be supporting a layer of half-inch plywood, and then a maximum of 110 pounds per square foot (bales plus snow load). Can anyone tell me how big around the vigas need to be? Thank you. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 7 17:49:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA06109 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:49:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA09923 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:48:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18942; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:42:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:38:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA18445 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:37:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18430; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 17:36:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA03228; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 14:42:12 -0800 Message-ID: <34DCE267.6361AA3B@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 14:38:32 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , GreenBuilding Listserver , "'\"strawbale\"'" Subject: Re: GBlist: composting toilets as back-up heater & worms References: <34CE005C.221531A9@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1840 I'm responding to my own post, pretty desperate eh? I've thought about this question and want to retract a concern about air flow cooling the pile. Enhancing air flow throught the pile will produce in effect more heat as in the function of the pile could be measured by the amount of heat removed (the only problem might be a lack of resource - invite a few friends for a large emetic - a direct method - breakfast on a regular basis?) A method of affecting heat exchange (aside from all the radiant bodies at breakfast) would be in the building exhaust assembly into the composter and exhausted and incoming back through the exhaust and back through the composter - a counterflow air-air heat exchange. With a temperature difference of approx. 30deg.F between incoming and exhaust at 50cfm there could be a temp. gain of 30% on incoming over a 16' run of smooth pipe (borrowed the calc. from Nick Pine's thoughts on counterflow for woodburning exhaust). Not enough to heat but not bad for a preheat. Probably more effective to use water for the exchange but that gets too inventive. And by the way shouldn't we factor food in this energy equation or is that what the compost is for. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. John Salmen wrote: > Is there exhaust air that can be used as the supply for the composting toilet. > If so you would be able to maintain an adequate and consistent temp. and flow > through the pile (65-70) to ensure composting in the basic range. The exhaust > flow through the pipe would have to be continuous and at a rate to ensure > continuous building exhaust. This flow would certainly be sufficient for the > composter but may be too much i.e. may cool the pile. I would also worry about > the effect of quality of air on the condenser or exchange element. The problem > with wanting to range the temperature for pasteurization is that you have to > ensure that it is complete through the material - which would involve > segregating the material from incoming and some method of distribution through. > Solar treatment would seem the only energy efficient way of doing it, as a > secondary treatment. > > I think capturing transferring heat from the composter through insulated mass > (concrete vault) may be a simpler method. Perhaps using embedded water as a > preheat for hw. One of the sites for composting toilets is for one using > vermiculture. Don't have the url handy - check the City Farmer site. I'll try > finding it later. > > Best > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S. > > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > Further to the on-going thread on "composting toilets", I would like to > > use my waterless composting toilet as my backup heating > > system in our home and office. It is centrally located in the house and can > > easily be monitored re: temperature and humidity. How can I naturally > > raise the temperature up to the thermopilic range (ie. above 40 dC)? > > > > If I cannot do the above, I would like to be able to remove heat from the > > exhaust stack vent by the use of an air-to-water heat exchanger or heat > > pump (ie. from Vaughn?). Marc Rosenbaum thinks this would work. > > > > If I cannot use my composting toilet as back-up heater (realizing this will > > cool down my composting toilet), I would like to get the right worms to > > help aerate and digest my compost pile. Does anyone have the Spring & > > Summer 1995 articles from "Worm Digest" on vermicomposting of human waste? > > I would like to read those articles. Does anyone have their e-mail address? > > Does anyone have any useful information? > > > > Jorg Ostrowski > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 7 19:46:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA07688 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA29658 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:44:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA23746; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:38:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:34:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA22979 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:33:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22965 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:33:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip207.efn.org [204.214.97.207]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA28587 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:36:59 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: Subject: GBlist: Oops... I guess I'm NOT on the board Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 15:56:53 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd3424$109af660$LocalHost@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1841 I had thought that my Oregon Senate confirmation hearing was just a rubber stamp to my being appointed to the Building Code Structures Board. So, as is my nature, I was entirely honest. It turns out that two out of the six senators on the panel (Eileen Qutub of Beaverton and Gene Derfler of Salem) were opposed to my confirmation which took it to a full vote of the Oregon Senate which is two thirds Republican. End of story. For those interested, I include the letter that I wrote to the two senators that found me so objectionable: Senator Gene Derfler Feb. 6, 1998 1408 34th Ave, NW Salem, OR 97304 Dear Senator Derfler, I’m writing to express perplexity and dismay at the defeat of my appointment to the Building Codes Structures Board by you and Senator Qutub. It seemed that the thing that turned the two of you against me was that I stated that, if confirmed to the board, I would suggest that we might consider placing restrictions on building materials that are proven to be harmful to the health of those living in the buildings. Does this mean that you would recommend a return of asbestos and lead-based paint to the building industry? What about spraying food crops with DDT? Would you recommend that? Even if I were a rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth, radical environmentalist (which I am not), are you that concerned that people like me would somehow achieve a majority on the board and thus begin recommending all kinds of draconian restrictions on every remotely harmful building material? With all due respect Senator, the words that come to mind when describing your opposition to my confirmation are “hysteria” and “paranoia”. If that is what typifies the world’s leadership, then it is no wonder that Lester Brown of the Worldwatch Institute explains in his annual survey, State of the World, that every living system on earth is in decline. I encourage a thoughtful response to this letter. For our children’s children, Robert Bolman 888 Almaden St, Eugene, OR 97402 541-344-7196 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 7 19:46:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA07694 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:46:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA29735 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:44:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA23776; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:39:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:34:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA22995 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:33:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22975 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 19:33:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip207.efn.org [204.214.97.207]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA28598 for ; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:37:04 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: Subject: GBlist: Getting an experimental building permit?? Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 16:07:21 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd3425$869b4940$LocalHost@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1842 >>My second question is, have any of you used an experimental permit and >>what did you have to do to get one? > > >Thomas, > Following are two letters that I wrote to Steve McGuire, the code analyst with the City of Eugene, OR Building Dept. (actually, one could be seen as a cover letter for the other) He had been very helpful so far in getting approval for my very earthen SB structure. However, the building dept. was balking at my earth plaster. The following letters resulted in a visit to my structure by four building officials and ultimate approval of an experimental permit for exterior earthen plaster here in rainy western Oregon. I like to think that the wording is urgent and heartfelt enough that they simply could not have denied me a permit. Good Luck, Robert Bolman Robert Bolman 888 Almaden St Eugene, OR 97402 541-344-7196 robtb@efn.org Dear Steve, 11/15/97 I should have gotten this letter off to you a long time ago. I was doing a job in Portland for a few weeks and working for other clients here to earn money. Plus I’ve simply procrastinated. Writing the be-all, end-all urgently persuasive letter is a daunting task. About a year and a half ago I sent a “vision statement” to Mike McKerrow. My chief goal was to persuade him to allow me to build a detached studio prior to the triplex required on the lot I’m presently building on. Mike called a few days later to explain that while he really appreciated my ideas, he just couldn’t find a way to fit it into the code. Shortly after that, I attended the Eco-Design Arts Conference at the U of O. I got very inspired, came home and wrote Mike an urgent, heartfelt letter. A couple days later he called to say that, somehow, he’d found a way to fit my request into the code. OK, now it’s your turn. You know that I really like you. I don’t feel the least bit comfortable dumping all this on you, but here it goes. Please read on. I’ll be doing a job in San Francisco from mid November to mid December. I’ ll talk to you when I get back. Sincerely, Robert Bolman Robert Bolman 888 Almaden St Eugene, OR 97402 541-344-7196 email: robtb@efn.org To: Steve McGuire 11/15/97 City of Eugene Building & Permit Services 99 W. 10th Ave. Eugene, OR 97401 Dear Mr. McGuire In 1992, more than 1,500 of the world’s most prominent scientists, including a majority of the then-living Nobel Prize winners, issued a “Warning to Humanity,” which stated, “Human beings and the natural world are on a collision course.” They went on to caution that our current practices risk the future of human society and “may so alter the living world that it will be unable to sustain life in the manner that we know.” The limited, localized, environmental achievements that we’ve been able to make so far are dwarfed by the overall worsening of the situation. We’re re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. In wealthier countries, where many environmental problems are tied directly to our consumption patterns, our houses are the single largest, most expensive thing that most of us ever buy. They need to be critically examined. Mae & Jack Yousey have become good friends of mine. They reluctantly agree with me when I suggest that their straw bale house is little more than a symbolic environmental improvement. It’s a beautiful, jewel box of a house. It’s perfect for getting average folks to open their eyes to something different. Meanwhile, while it does have straw bales in the walls, it also contains over 50 yards of concrete, 12,000 board feet of lumber, pressure treated lumber, plywood, OSB, rigid foam, fiberglass, palates of Structolite plaster, various toxic chemicals, etc. In other words, it doesn’t constitute real environmental improvement over conventional housing. I’ve been working (when I can afford to) for over a year now to begin developing a model of housing that does constitute real environmental improvement. You probably are already familiar with many of the differences between my structure and other environmentally innovative houses in Eugene. My ultimate goal is a type of housing that contains no toxic materials and few industrially manufactured materials. A low-income family could build it out of inexpensive, locally available materials using their own labor (as families have done since the dawn of civilization). They wouldn’t necessarily need to take on a full 30-year mortgage. Upon reaching the end of its service life, lumber and hardware could be recycled and the majority of the house could be composted – leaving the robust and unusual foundation as a picturesque archaeological ruin – perhaps to be built upon again. I could go on and on. The above description doesn’t even touch on other elements of human habitation such as gray water, catch water, food production, compost, permaculture, community, planning, etc. Since I put an earthen plaster on the interior of my structure, it’s been performing so well that I feel emboldened to put it on the exterior – protected (of course) in the traditional northern European way with a lime plaster render and generous eves. Perhaps I’m pushing things too far. But it is so beautiful and it makes so much sense to me. I’m convinced that we’ ve been sold a bill of goods, believing that we need to buy plaster in 50 pound sacks that come from a factory hundreds of miles away. I’ve had extremely minor cracking on the first coat and virtually no cracking on the second coat. I know that the clay of the Willamette Valley is expansive. The plaster mix that I arrived at is 2 parts clay (slip) to 7 parts sand to 1 part chopped straw. So the clay is a rather small percentage of the overall mix. The plaster went on sopping wet (of course) and dried as I describe above, so I have a hard time believing that slight subsequent changes in humidity/moisture content are going to have an adverse effect on it. Before applying the plaster, I used a drywall texture gun to spray a mixture of clay slip and wheat paste onto the bales, which served as a primer/adhesive. Once ground into the end grain of the bales, the stuff is not coming off. I invite you to come in and give it any punishment that you will. I could mock-up a little piece of sheet rock nearby so that we can compare The structure is so beautifully earthy that it would break my heart to wrap it with cement stucco – especially when that would run against the whole intention to have the walls breath as much as possible. My structure, as I wish to complete it, will offer the further advantage of complimenting Mae & Jack’s in terms of having a more breathable outer skin. Of course we will both be continuing our moisture tests. Even if the earthen plaster were a mistake, that is a possibility that I accept. I’m fully prepared to record it on the title of the property, which would protect any potential future purchasers. I’m in touch with various students and professors at the U of O Architecture Department. Ross Levanthal at the Solar Center offered to arrange for a student to write a research paper on the process, if that could enable you to permit it. Charlie Brown of the Center for Housing Innovation is interested. Someone with lots of money could design an upscale house using 200 yards of concrete, thousands of board feet of clear, vertical grain fir (from old growth), lots of ozone depleting polyisocyanurate rigid foam, products containing polyvinyl chloride, formaldehyde, and many other toxic chemicals. That person, after throwing a lot of money at it, would get a permit to build that house. In light of that, denial of permission to continue to experiment in my modest, independent way, on the model of housing that I envision, would be a travesty of justice flying in the face of environmental sanity. What’s the world going to be like 50 years from now? Will a child that you love die in a flood caused by global warming; 4% - 5% percent of which is caused by the manufacture and distribution of concrete? Will a daughter eventually get breast cancer caused by a handful of Chlorine molecules released in the manufacture of PVC pipe or vinyl windows? Read Al Gore’s book, “Earth in the Balance”. Read “The Ecology of Commerce” by Paul Hawken. We cannot go on like this. Dramatic changes need to be made in every aspect of the way we house ourselves. We cannot expect funding or research to come very promptly from corporate America. That’s why I’m doing it. I recently was elected Chairman of the Eugene chapter of the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild. My first order of business is to bring the organization into a greater level of membership and activism. I have established a subcommittee concerned with changing the building codes to permit alternative structures. There are various organizations that will lend their weight toward that goal. It will happen eventually. Until it does, let’s work together to find a way for me to continue doing the work that I’m doing in an up-front and honest way. Sincerely, Robert Bolman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 8 01:27:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA10298 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 01:27:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA07980 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 01:26:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA01476; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 01:20:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 01:16:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA01173 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 01:15:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA01166 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 01:15:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from van-52-2022.direct.ca (default) [204.174.243.214] by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0y1Q7O-0000Bt-00; Sat, 7 Feb 1998 22:21:31 -0800 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Fees discussion & paradigm shifting Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 22:19:55 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1843 > Re: the discussion on fees: > "Clan Handley" wrote: > Am I getting this right. Y'all want a paradigm shift to mass support of greenbuilding and sustainable design and you want people to PAY you to have their minds changed? > That ain't never gonna happen. We forget that we've all paid to get to the situation we're in. Who paid for the Automobile culture? the drive-in culture? the consumerism? We've all paid for it, and we all got sucked into it step by step by the "Madison Avenue" marketing industry. It didn't happen overnight! We pay for all that "free" media that bombards us, and creates the attitudes and values with which we live. I'll venture to say that at least half the stuff we have in our homes today (yes, including so many bells and whistles on our computers) are not really necessary, and we only have them because of the culture that's EVOLVED to create a need to it - and convinced us it's a necessity. I really am bothered when I hear so many business people and politicians saying something to the effect that we can't afford for the public sector to fund some vital public activity (like health care or social benefits), because there's no money [and they won't consider using tax dollars for it], but have no problem when corporations do something under the guise of "promotion" or "marketing". What's not said is that we all pay (whether or not we want to) for that corporate participation through the tax breaks that are given [with no public accountability]. But before I go off on a tangent, the point I want to make is that if we want to see real change, then we'll have to find some way of corraling the marketing might of the mainstream corporate world to create the interest and attitude shift. Like it or not, they do have the clout and power to change attitudes. To become maintream, greenbuilding and sustainable design will have to be the standard for everyone, not just a few select. Maybe we need to get Hollywood to start blending green/sustainable ideas into their dream machine. > > As to whether or not you get "paid" for your "free" advice, that depends on the currency you are using. > > If we are going to truly make a shift to sustainable living we have to shift our currency from one of economics to one of support. Give support<>get support. Under those terms, it isn't free and you are getting paid. Paid by the building of true community and changed minds. > > I do understand that people to make a living and I'm not advocating that y'all just give away your expertise, but the goal of educating people about greenbuilding practices, and the goal of getting paid for consulting might be mutually exclusive. At least when you are talking about the average joe "I throw my lawn clippings in the trash" homeowner. No disagreement. I guess many of us feel that we're beating our heads against the wall too often, and once in a while it would be nice to get compensated for our efforts. I suspect that contrary to some of the whining that's gone on here, we're still giving out free advice, and will continue to do so. Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seymour St. Vancouver, BC V6B 3N9 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 8 09:24:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12855 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 09:24:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA01891 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 09:22:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10061; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 09:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 09:11:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09692 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 09:10:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09687 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 09:10:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25686 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 09:16:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 09:16:30 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Exhaust turbines To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199802080700.CAA03079@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1844 > Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:32:59 -0500 > From: Terry Brennan > Subject: Re: GBlist:exhaust turbines > > Are you interested in the passive exhaust turbines that are spun by the > wind? If so they are available from Graingers. Also, I tested a number of > different passive stack terminations in a wind tunnel years ago to > determine flow-delta P characterisitics for different wind speeds. I > didn't find the spinning turbines to be much more effective than an open > stack or the hooped jobs sold for wood stove chimneys. As I recall, the > now defunct Southeastern Solar Energy Center in Georgia did a similar study > with similar results years ago. If you're interested, I could look the Passive exhaust turbines were also studied at U of Alberta and found to have inferior ventilation capacity to open stacks. The reason is pretty clear. Two types of energy drive ventilation-- bouyancy from temperature differential (hot air rises) and dynamic wind energy. Both sourves can can drive air flow, but they have to drive a spinning turbine as well, less energy is available to drive ventilation. What is the spinning supposed to do anyway? A screened stack, or better yet, a stack with a wind vane that directs the exhaust downwind all the time can achieve quite reasonable ventilation pressures/flows. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 8 11:35:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13879 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA02255 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:33:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13853; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:28:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:24:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13552 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:23:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from sirocco.CC.McGill.CA (sirocco.CC.McGill.CA [132.206.27.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13544 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:23:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from 198.168.189.91 (G-11.DAS.McGill.CA [198.168.189.91]) by sirocco.CC.McGill.CA (8.6.12/8.6.6) with SMTP id LAA00037 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:29:14 -0500 X-SMTP-Posting-Origin: 198.168.189.91 (G-11.DAS.McGill.CA [198.168.189.91]) Message-ID: <34DDD090.4F1C@po-box.mcgill.ca> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:34:40 -0400 From: Sherry Poon Reply-To: spoon@po-box.mcgill.ca Organization: McGill University School of Architecture X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Water Treatment Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1845 For a student residence project in Montreal, we would like to incorporate facilities for biological water treatment. The water treated would be greywater from washing and cooking, as well as from rainwater collected on the roof. The treated water would be then used for washing and cooking while the solid byproducts would be used as fertilitzer. An existing courtyard seems to be an ideal place to put the "ponds" of aquatic plants, algae, and fish. Does anyone know if the productivity of exterior water treatment ponds will provide an acceptable yield in the winter? We are planning for approx. 90 stidents. Or is it more beneficial to place a Living Machine in a greenhouse? S. Poon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 8 12:15:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14206 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:15:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA11814 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:13:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15368; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:08:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:03:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14867 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:03:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14863 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:03:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA15255; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 09:09:01 -0800 Message-ID: <34DDE5CA.6AFB6F79@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 09:05:15 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Exhaust turbines References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1846 Hi John Thank you for your information. Replies from Terry and yourself have stopped me from spending any more time trying to get performance information on turbines, it also explains why I was having some difficulty. I am looking for ways to ensure and improve air flow through an insulated and buried (3 sides) concrete composting vault. No power and limited potential for pv and a lot of high trees. I am wanting to direct air flow over or between the top surface of a gravel/sand liquid filter and the underside of the compostables so their will be some turbulent flow and resistance. If the composter is working there should be enough temperature difference to maintain a passive flow but I'm worried about site conditions interfering with this process and of course want to optimize the design. I'll look into what is available for protecting or improving performance of a stack. Thanks for the suggestions. Any other thoughts would be appreciated John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. John Straube wrote: > > Date: Sat, 7 Feb 1998 11:32:59 -0500 > > From: Terry Brennan > > Subject: Re: GBlist:exhaust turbines > > > > Are you interested in the passive exhaust turbines that are spun by the > > wind? If so they are available from Graingers. Also, I tested a number of > > different passive stack terminations in a wind tunnel years ago to > > determine flow-delta P characterisitics for different wind speeds. I > > didn't find the spinning turbines to be much more effective than an open > > stack or the hooped jobs sold for wood stove chimneys. As I recall, the > > now defunct Southeastern Solar Energy Center in Georgia did a similar study > > with similar results years ago. If you're interested, I could look the > > Passive exhaust turbines were also studied at U of Alberta and found to > have inferior ventilation capacity to open stacks. The reason is pretty > clear. Two types of energy drive ventilation-- bouyancy from temperature > differential (hot air rises) and dynamic wind energy. Both sourves can > can drive air flow, but they have to drive a spinning turbine as well, > less energy is available to drive ventilation. What is the spinning > supposed to do anyway? A screened stack, or better yet, a stack with > a wind vane that directs the exhaust downwind all the time can achieve > quite reasonable ventilation pressures/flows. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 8 12:16:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14211 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA12035 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:14:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15449; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:08:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:04:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14983 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:04:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.167]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14973 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:04:26 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id TRRVa04253 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:10:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1690263.34dde6f1@aol.com> Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:10:07 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: CT Green Contractor? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1847 Dear List Members: Could anyone point me to a general contractor familiar with green building techniques, particularly with reference to Indoor Air Quality issues for residents with Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, located in rural Connecticut near Hampton or Willimantic? I am consulting with a client who is planning to build safe housing there for his chemically injured wife. Contractor does not need to be an "expert" in MCS or IAQ issues, but must be willing to consult on every aspect of construction methods and materials, and to abide strictly by specifications agreed upon. Please feel free to respond directly to me off list, if that seems most appropriate. Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant Berkeley, CA phone/fax: 510-841-1039 email: IAQKibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 8 12:43:44 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14417 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:43:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19229 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:42:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16980; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:31:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16223 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:31:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16219 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:31:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.10] (blf10.acadia.net [205.217.217.10]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA13298 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:37:27 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:35:25 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: (Trying not to)... rapidly lose it Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1848 - quote: >It is most important that those with skill and experience in this (or any) >field charge for their time. The world around us values things at the price >paid. If we charge nothing ... that will be the value of our product >- despite all the protestations of those with short-term agendas. >We will be wasting our time; those seeking our experience will come >unprepared to take advantage of what ever we have to offer; our "product" >will wander and wither in the wilderness. What a great future! > >Trying-to-stay-calm in Massachusetts ... > >Bruce Coldham - end of quote Bruce and others: Utmost sympathy with this feeling, and two observations: 1. The book "Your Money or Your Life" defines Money simply as something you trade your life energy for. Each of us has to decide how we want to trade, both in how we work and what we consume. (Assuming, of course, you're past the bare-bones subsistence level.) 2. (Marc has heard this one.) I have a builder friend named Joe. He's one of the best I know, and charges a couple bucks an hour more than market rate here - but he's worth it for quality and efficiency. A few years ago, when my business partner and I first set up shop, he asked how it was going. I said, "Oh, I'm having a hard time getting people to believe I'm worth what I charge per hour." He said, "They'll believe it when you believe it." I think he was right. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 8 12:43:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14422 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:43:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19263 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17004; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:32:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16242 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:31:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16233 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:31:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.10] (blf10.acadia.net [205.217.217.10]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA13315 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:37:38 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:35:36 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Paradigm and Policy Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1849 Dana and Dennis Meadows taught me that "policy" is any action taken to close the gap between a goal and how we perceive the current situation. If we see the difference as small, our policies will be cautious and incremental. If we think the difference is large, our policies will reflect this. Dana has gone on to teach that clearly describing a desirable goal, and clearly diagnosing the current situation, is in and of itself very effective policy. She does this through her writing. We have the same opportunity every time we educate a client, speak at a conference or design or build a structure. Our own view of the difference between goal and reality comes from our world view, paradigm, what-you-will. Here are some possible stances: _______________________________________________________________________________ Current Built Environment: Desired Built Environment: _______________________________________________________________________________ Just Great! More of the same! Nothing wrong that a few technical Like now, with the wrinkles adjustments couldn't fix. ironed out. Needs serious overhaul. Current institutions and techniques deeply reformed. Needs fundamental transformation. Systemic redesign. Sucks! Age of Aquarius. ________________________________________________________________________________ So, what other stances are there? Where do you stand? I'm a Fundamental Transformation guy myself, although I often sound like a Technical Fix or Serious Overhaul person, in order to sound less threatening. Challenging paradigms has to be done gently. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 8 12:44:06 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14435 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:44:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19316 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:42:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17041; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:36:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:32:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16288 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:32:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16282 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:32:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.10] (blf10.acadia.net [205.217.217.10]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA13341 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:37:55 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:35:54 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist:composting Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1850 One of the nation's foremost authorities on municipal/industrial/agricultural composting is Woods End Labs in Dryden, Maine. They have solved many difficult composting problems for cities and corporations. If anyone's interested, I'll get an address/phone. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 8 12:44:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14440 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:44:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19477 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17138; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:37:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:32:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16359 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16347 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA23819 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:38:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 12:38:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from asy12.vineyard.net(199.232.92.52) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id smaa23794; Sun Feb 8 12:38:08 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Earth Integration (used broadly) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1851 The recent thread about a magazine to help mainstream green building got me thinking, especially after I received the inaugural issue of Environmental Design and Construction, a new trade magazine that I'm sure many other listers received as well. What green building may need is an identity. If you look on the newstand at your nearby Barnes and Noble (or, even better, if you're lucky enough to still have a newstand on Main Street), you'll find at least three or four magazines for the general public about Log Homes, and probably one or two about Timber Framed Homes. The Log Building industry didn't exist a decade ago - it has built itself laboriously. The Timber Frame industry is now doing the same (The Timber Frame Business Council formed last year). But what is green building and what do we call it? Sustainable is a presumptuous misnomer, and Green is too vague, weak, and watered down to mean anything. I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to revive and expand a term from the 70's - Earh Integrated. It's compelling, and it may, in fact, describe just what we're talking about. Although the term has meant, in the past, a bermed or underground building, it conjures up a lot more. Forget the old definition for a moment and think about the two words: Earth and Integrated. Doesn't that convey the meaning? Earth Integrated in terms of land use, energy use, resource use, nutrient cycling, occupant health, planet health, transportation, etc. Would a descriptive phrase like that help? John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 8 14:10:30 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA15815 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 14:10:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA08933 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 14:08:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19993; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 14:03:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 13:58:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19654 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 13:58:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19650 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 13:58:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA17289; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 11:03:59 -0800 Message-ID: <34DE00BD.9546A954@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 11:00:13 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist:composting References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1852 David. Thanks for the reference, I've been compiling references on composting and bioremediation, especially ones that seem usefull in qualifying building/residential development practices. Here is the link to Woods End for anyone else interested http://www.maine.com/woodsend/inst.htm John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. David M. Foley wrote: > One of the nation's foremost authorities on > municipal/industrial/agricultural composting is Woods End Labs in Dryden, > Maine. They have solved many difficult composting problems for cities and > corporations. If anyone's interested, I'll get an address/phone. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 8 19:29:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA19744 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:29:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA00232 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:28:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA03063; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:22:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:17:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA02740 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:17:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA02736 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:17:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA01238 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:23:47 -0500 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-54-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.54]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id TAA07348 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:23:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980208192314.006b906c@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 19:23:14 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Re:Sealed combustion gas dryers In-Reply-To: <199802020700.CAA22796@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1853 One of my co-workers sent this to me: "I have a customer who would like to convert their coin-operated electric clothes dryers to natural gas. Combustion air is an issue, so what we're looking for is a coin-operated, direct-vent (sealed combustion) unit. The company who supplies the current dryers says they have "never seen one". Does anybody know of a coin-operated DV dryer? If not, I'd also appreciate info on direct-vent gas clothes dryers that are not coin-operated -- perhaps they could be converted, or maybe even used as is." Anyone have any leads? --- On another matter, I would like to ask again that people sign their e-mail and give their city and state. What context is someone coming from whose only identification is amyjq24j@pqr.neat ?? Isn't "green" (in part) about context? -- Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc. Montpelier VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 8 20:08:47 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA20319 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:08:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA09456 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:07:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04989; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 20:01:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:57:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA04576 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA04570 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 19:57:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id U|T17800; Sun, 08 Feb 1998 20:02:41 EST To: jabrams@vineyard.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 17:41:02 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth Integration (used broadly) Message-ID: <19980208.174126.3438.0.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-4,10-15 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1854 I really like the term you came up with John- Earth Integrated describes my developing philosophy to a tee- possibly better than many of the terms i have tried to use thus far! may i use it when promoting this philosophy to friends? I am already taking this idea a step farther- as i have been working on this philosophy for a couple of years- and it has been coming to me faster than i can write it down- i am taking baby steps and pre-writing a "magazine article" on each subject in my outline. maybe when the time comes to publish, i will have something ready rather than my vague descriptions currently. I think this will also become a book eventually. Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 8 21:53:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA21912 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:53:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA05990 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:52:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09097; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:42:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08802 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:41:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo29.mail.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.157]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08796 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:41:50 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id COBJa29310; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:42:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4b4cb57d.34de6d2d@aol.com> Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:42:51 EST To: james3@niehs.nih.gov, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: RE: GBlist: realty anecdote Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1855 Olivia You wrote "as a sustainable realtor-to-be, it will be interesting to find out what safety and security i can offer buyers that would push them toward appropriately-sized "green" housing. so far, i'm only aware of some long-tem financial advantages to creating conservation easements. any other suggestions? what exactly is this approach offering conventional folks, other than lower utility bills?" Olivia, I'd agree with Beverly Weiter about lower allergist bills, less sick kids and generally feeling better. (Terry Brennan, have you commented on this yet? Terry's the answer man on this stuff.) How about natural daylighting vs dark dreary spaces in the typical house on the market. Energy efficient mortgages offer discounts so they can qualify for more/better house. Better quality up front equals less maintenance and cost down the line. How about an advantage of new interesting friends like you they will meet from exploring and getting turned on to all these issues. Good luck with your new career. We sure could use a couple intelligent realtors in the world. Want to open an office in Massachusetts? Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 8 22:05:15 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA22089 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:05:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA08899 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:03:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09993; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:57:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:53:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA09471 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:53:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mail.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.156]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09465 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:53:26 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id LSCLa10180; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:58:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <672be99c.34de70bf@aol.com> Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 21:58:05 EST To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: The Dilemma Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1856 David It's refreshing to hear of architects initiating a team approach vs the "auction". I gave up on working with architects after turning several clients over to a couple different firms only to have my jobs come back to me as a bid set going to five other firms. Keep up the good work. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 8 22:15:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA22224 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:15:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA11708 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:14:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10605; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:08:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:04:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10252 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10247 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:04:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip10.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.29]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA158 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:26:33 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980208221845.007232bc@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 22:18:45 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:Sealed combustion gas dryers In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980208192314.006b906c@together.net> References: <199802020700.CAA22796@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1857 At 07:23 PM 2/8/98 -0500, Andrew M. Shapiro wrote: ... >Does anybody know of a coin-operated DV dryer? If not, I'd also appreciate >info on direct-vent gas clothes dryers that are not coin-operated -- >perhaps they could be converted, or maybe even used as is." Andrew: About a year ago, I did a pollution prevention study on dry cleaning (which naturally branched off into wet cleaning, sonication, sub-critical CO2, and so on). There's a pretty good industry website at http://www.cleanshow.com/. This site has a built-in search engine with punchthroughs to manufacturers. Also, you may want to take a look at EPA's Design for the Environment webpage. Cindy Stroup, EPA's lead on dry cleaning and alternatives, is a go-getter who knows her stuff. Good luck, ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 8 22:21:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA22358 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA13551 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:20:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA11179; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:14:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:10:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10802 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:10:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10796 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:10:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.125] (pm2a5.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.165]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA18806; Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:15:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:15:51 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980208192314.006b906c@together.net> References: <199802020700.CAA22796@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Andrew M. Shapiro" From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:Sealed combustion gas dryers Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1858 Quoted from Andrew Shapiro: > >"I have a customer who would like to convert their coin-operated electric >clothes dryers to natural gas. Combustion air is an issue, so what we're >looking for is a coin-operated, direct-vent (sealed combustion) unit. The >company who supplies the current dryers says they have "never seen one". > >Does anybody know of a coin-operated DV dryer? If not, I'd also appreciate >info on direct-vent gas clothes dryers that are not coin-operated -- >perhaps they could be converted, or maybe even used as is." > >Anyone have any leads? >--- To the best of my knowledge, all gas dryers are in effect "direct-vent," in that the combustion gases (along with the humid air) is forced outdoors with the aid of the dryer blower. However, I am not aware of any "sealed combustion" dryers--in which combustion air is supplied directly to the dryer. As normally used, the terms "direct vent" and "sealed combustion" are no synonomous. When you said he wants to "convert" the electric dryers to gas, I assume you meant he wants to "replace" the electric with gas. I very much doubt that it would be possible to convert an electric dryer into a gas dryer. -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News Brattleboro, Vermont ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 08:41:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA28506 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:41:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA21544 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:40:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA27833; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:34:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:29:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA27283 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:29:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA27279 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:29:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.106.37] (usrts3p37.port.net [207.237.106.37]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA09789 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:35:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802091335.IAA09789@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: GBlist: Re: GB list: compasses Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 08:36:04 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1859 George Newman wrote: >Did you ever get a satisfactory answer to your question about >compass directions? Yes........ John Wilson was kind enough to ......point me in the right direction....;-) > >You must be somewhere in VT/NH/ME, right? If that's the case, then your >compass deviation (declination) would be 16 degrees WEST declination. In >other words, the compass needle points 16 degrees west of true (map) north, >and the other end points 16 degrees east of true south. Right.....northern VT...... did I indicate East declination? Please excuse..... I knew the correction was west of north and east of south, maybe I was talking about the southern part of the compass needle...... I know the theory but verbal (email) descriptions of graphic systems get confusing. > >If you want to face 15-20 degrees east of true south, as someone was >suggesting, then the "south" end of your compass needle is >automatically pointing in more or less the right direction. Yea.. that works out nicely........... > >You can check by noting the position of the sun at exactly noon: that will >be true south. Your compass needle will be pointing 16 degrees off to the >left, toward the east. I'll be on the site this coming weekend so I can do that then, if the sun is out.. Thanks C.Dodge Albany, VT NYC ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 08:41:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA28512 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:41:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA21567 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:40:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA27835; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:34:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:30:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA27313 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:29:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA27302 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:29:48 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 1NRAa05982 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:35:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 08:35:26 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: re: GBlist: Earth Integration (used broadly) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id IAA27306 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1860 John, I would quibble with your choice of names for the green building movement, but I think the whole idea of a perfect name and definition is probably wrong. I question the wisdom of creating a new name and especially that of encouraging some sort of unifying organization like the Timber Framer’s Business Council. The timber framing and log home industries are somewhat technology specific and limited in scope. The common nature of their work and business concerns suggests natural organizational needs. The most important aspect of what we all do in common is what either John Bower or Rob Harrison postulated in the discussion of fees: “some day it will just be called good design”. I wouldn't want to encourage a consolidation of the explosion of green building organizations, conferences and movements. Such a natural outpouring is a wonderful statement about emerging priorities in the bulding industry and shouldn’t be harnessed, limited and constrained. This discussion of properly defining and naming green building practice reminds me of the birth of the AIA that Ayn Rand describes in “Fountainhead”. The end result is that those with proper pedigree and credentials get to practice while many with more talent and ability get shut out of the system for not following the narrow strictures, climbing the single acceptable path to certification and bowing to the organizational powers that be. Perhaps a better avenue would be for us all to join the National Association of Home Builders, a large powerful and existent body that is intended to address the broad range of residential building concerns. NAHB has a long history of resisting limits and bureaucratization of the industry. With enough influx we might slowly change that organization into a friend of the natural environment. With our tendency toward what seem to me peripheral issues like how to thatch properly, whether or not to put ashes in composting toilets, etc., I for one, would not want our group to be the organization dominating the housing industry ’m really happy and comfortable with all the small, fertile cross, pollinating grounds for new ideas remaining independent and expanding in different directions. The Greenbuilder List, The Northeast Sustainable Energy Association, The Energy Efficient Building Association, Affordable Comfort, The Austin Greenbuilders Program, R-2000, The Energy Crafted Home Program, The Quality Building Council, The AIA Committee on the Environment, the various regional, national and international solar energy associations, etc., etc. Many of these efforts will whither and die. Some will sprout great new solutions. While I’ll be the first to point out some things that I think are unhelpful to our movement, the last thing we need is any tendency toward dictating a single route to acceptable practice. As for a new magazine, I'm all for that. I'll take all the new ideas I can get. Toward a broad, open and inclusive future, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 09:14:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA29136 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:14:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA28320 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:12:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28947; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:06:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:02:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28637 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:02:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mail.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.156]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28631 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:02:37 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 1RDAa10180 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:07:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3079e921.34df0da1@aol.com> Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:07:27 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Green Schools Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1861 Friends, Our local community is currently designing a new middle school for 500 students. In the rush to get going, a bit of due diligence was missed in selecting the site. (one of the reasons I joined the Capital Planning Board later) The site that was purchased is a fairly wet area underlaid by a deep vein of incredibly permeable gravel on top of the largest and best aquifer in town. Due to constrained financing, the engineers are proposing a giant conventional septic system. You know the kind, did a big hole, put some pipes in it, have the sewage flow into a settling tank and then out into the field. Then never clean out the tank until the entire field is clogged and backed up at the same time you expand the flow and demand by cramming more kids into the school than it was designed for. In one of the few really wise decisions I've seen come out of the conservation board, in order to protect the aquifer, they've requested that the engineers come up with a real treatment solution instead. Seems like an ideal opportunity for the kind of work John Todd and friends are doing. Does anyone know how to contact them these days? Any other ideas that could have both a sewage treatment and educational component? Any of you folks have other value adding consulting services that can come in to a school after conceptual design is well along but before working drawings are going and before shovel hits earth? I'd be glad to put in a plug for you. Thanks for any ideas. The continuation of the conservation board meeting is on Thursday Feb 19. Any sewage solutions that I might propose would be best propose at that time. Thanks, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 09:28:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA29502 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA02570 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:27:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00034; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:21:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:17:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA29747 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:17:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA29742 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:17:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.125] (usr0a32.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.96]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA18692; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:22:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:22:53 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3079e921.34df0da1@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: FUnger@aol.com From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Schools Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1862 Fred Unger wrote: > >Seems like an ideal opportunity for the kind of work John Todd and friends are >doing. Does anyone know how to contact them these days? Any other ideas that >could have both a sewage treatment and educational component? >Any of you folks have other value adding consulting services that can come in >to a school after conceptual design is well along but before working drawings >are going and before shovel hits earth? I'd be glad to put in a plug for you. > The July/August 1996 issue of Environmental Building News had an in-depth article on ecological wastewater treatment. The companies to contact are Living Technologies, Inc. in Burlington, VT at 802/865-4460 (Michael Shaw, President, who I believe monitors this list) and Ecological Engineering Associates in Marion, MA at 508/748-3224 (Susan Peterson, President). John Todd is at Ocean Arks International in Falmouth, MA, but he is involved more on the theoretical level and not the application level. If the ecological wastewater (solar aquatic) system proves too costly, you might also want to look into a recirculating sand filter and constructed wetland. A good consultant on that is Sherwood ("Woody") Reed, P.E. in Norwich, VT at 802/649-1230. Good luck. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 10:04:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00010 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:04:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA12230 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:02:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01491; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:57:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:53:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA01188 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:53:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01183 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:52:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sc25.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.218]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA07632 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 09:58:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34DF1889.5575@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 09:54:01 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Earth Integration Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1863 Fred, I don't think that was John's point , world domination doesn't seem like him at all. While I don't fault your logic on keeping the process open and fertile, the need for a more mass market appealing name for the product would be right up your ally. The terms we use for this kind of housing has the broad market appeal of say Spam with considerably less recognition. Finding a more desirable descriptive term I think is exactly on the money, so to speak, anything you can do to make this technology more recognizable and desirable to the buying public has got to bo benificial. I'm not necessarily sold on the Earth Integrated entry, but it is certainly a step up over "Sustainable Building Design", what a catchy phrase that is. This is going to set off a whole new round of hate mail from the market maulers out there, but for those who believe that, at least to some degree, one way effecting of this "Paradigm Shift" is through the masses, this should make some sense. Perhaps this weeks contest should be suggesting a new name for this kind of housing, world domination will have to wait for the new name. Just kidding Fred. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 10:13:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00140 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:13:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA14978 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:12:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02051; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:06:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:02:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01749 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:02:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01740 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:02:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sc25.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.218]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA10178 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:08:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34DF1AC8.1474@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 10:03:36 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Living Machines Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1864 Fred, John Todd is now at: http://www.earthbase.org/guests/oai/index.html and I belive he is teaching at UVM in Burlington. There is another org. there who are doing the same work, I can't find the url at the moment, perhaps some one of the better organized members of this list can find their copy. Goog luck, let us know how this goes. It sounds like it has potential. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 10:38:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00524 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:38:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA23513 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:36:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04887; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:31:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:26:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03962 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:26:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03945 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:26:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA06273; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 07:31:52 -0800 Message-ID: <34DF2092.660308A4@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 07:28:18 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FUnger@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Schools References: <3079e921.34df0da1@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1865 They have a commercial company that deals primarily with installations of commercial/ municipal treatment systems, will try and find the address (just noticed someone supplied it to you). They would be able to supply a bid for a complete system. They did a similar project for a school in Toronto (components are actually displayed in the school) John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. FUnger@aol.com wrote: > Friends, > > Our local community is currently designing a new middle school for 500 > students. In the rush to get going, a bit of due diligence was missed in > selecting the site. (one of the reasons I joined the Capital Planning Board > later) The site that was purchased is a fairly wet area underlaid by a deep > vein of incredibly permeable gravel on top of the largest and best aquifer in > town. > > Due to constrained financing, the engineers are proposing a giant conventional > septic system. You know the kind, did a big hole, put some pipes in it, have > the sewage flow into a settling tank and then out into the field. Then never > clean out the tank until the entire field is clogged and backed up at the same > time you expand the flow and demand by cramming more kids into the school than > it was designed for. > > In one of the few really wise decisions I've seen come out of the conservation > board, in order to protect the aquifer, they've requested that the engineers > come up with a real treatment solution instead. > > Seems like an ideal opportunity for the kind of work John Todd and friends are > doing. Does anyone know how to contact them these days? Any other ideas that > could have both a sewage treatment and educational component? > Any of you folks have other value adding consulting services that can come in > to a school after conceptual design is well along but before working drawings > are going and before shovel hits earth? I'd be glad to put in a plug for you. > > Thanks for any ideas. The continuation of the conservation board meeting is on > Thursday Feb 19. Any sewage solutions that I might propose would be best > propose at that time. > > Thanks, Fred > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 11:20:47 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01197 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:20:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA17958 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:23:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03137; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:17:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:13:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02591 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:13:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.167]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02582 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:13:21 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id HFPNa04254; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:18:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6e9dfe36.34df1e59@aol.com> Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:18:47 EST To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth Integration Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1866 In a message dated 98-02-09 10:02:14 EST, you write: << Finding a more desirable descriptive term I think is exactly on the money, so to speak, anything you can do to make this technology more recognizable and desirable to the buying public has got to bo benificial. I'm not necessarily sold on the Earth Integrated entry, but it is certainly a step up over "Sustainable Building Design", what a catchy phrase that is. >> I think John's description of Earth Integrated is a good description but I catch on the name as it brings up Earth as in 'building with dirt'. I suggest a name that avoids potential typecasting and that the descriptions tie into efficient, less environmental impact, cost effective, lower maintenance buildings, etc. So, how about Integrated Building Design as a name and come up with a logo that catches the description? Phil ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 12:13:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02347 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:13:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA01706 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:12:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12717; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:06:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:02:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12356 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:02:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12352 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:02:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA17066 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:07:46 -0500 Message-id: <2191944@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 09 Feb 98 12:13:39 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Schools To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1867 Re: using Living Machines in new buildings - why mix poop with water in the first place? Composting toilets treat the waste without contaminating water or creating the need to treat it afterwards. I understand that the Living Machine proposed for the Oberlin College Environmental Studies Bldg was to cost between 180-420K$, for a bldg of 14,000 ft2. Composters for the VT Law School New Classroom Bldg cost about 40K$ and serve 2 of 3 floors of a 24,500 ft2 bldg with 550 seats. I've scratched my head over and over about living Machiines in new construction, and I can't see why you would choose one over composters and a modest graywater system. Someone here will doubtlessly enlighten me! Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 12:52:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03016 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:52:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA14477 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:50:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15415; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:45:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:39:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14523 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from brickbat8.mindspring.com (brickbat8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14500; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:38:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip254.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.254]) by brickbat8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA01436; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 12:44:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980209174915.006c20a8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 12:49:15 -0500 To: achpa@dis.anl.gov, ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: GBlist: NYS Hearings on Building Code Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1868 There are still two Public Hearing dates left on the establishment of a new State Uniform Fire Prevention and Building Code for New York State to be conducted by the Senate Standing Committee on Housing, Construction & Community Development. Albany - Thursday, February 19 @ 11 AM Syracuse - Thursday, March 12 @ 11 AM To present testimony, contact: Robert T Farley, Counsel Senate Standing Committee on Housing, Construction & Community Development Office of Senator Vincent L Libell Room 802, Legislative Office Building Albany, New York 12247 tel: 518-455-3111 fax: 518-455-6977 email: Bfarley@ix.netcom.com best for the new year ---- -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 14:03:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04749 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:03:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15514 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:01:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19752; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:55:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:50:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19372 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:50:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19368 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:50:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.38.252.136] (ts10port8.port.net [207.38.252.136]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA18320 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:56:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802091856.NAA18320@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: GB list: compasses Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 13:57:06 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1869 Marc wrote: >It's good to keep the details in mind, but not to let the compass distract us >from our powers of observation - I always forget....... is it God or the devil who is in the details?;-) The most powerful of the observations I ve made this winter is the fact that sunny days are few and far between during the northern New England heating season. That challenge to building efficiency in these regions would seem to put integrating a host of complimentary sytems to work at the top of the to-do list. I know you would be the first to advise simplicity, though........ but don't worry......I'm not smart enough to do otherwise! Thanks for your encouragement and enduring sense of perspective Clarence Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 14:46:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA07161 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:46:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA02832 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:45:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22422; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:39:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:35:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22093 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:35:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22087 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:35:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA26554 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:41:07 -0500 Message-id: <2194443@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 09 Feb 98 14:47:01 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Lab mechanicals To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1870 Andy Schapiro and I are working as consultants to a design team working on a small lab building in VT. Some questions: 1) Humidification is needed (large airflows) in heating season. How to do it? We assume steam is safest from IAQ point of view. We'd like to use gas rather than electric as the fuel. Are there standard ways to individually inject steam as required by zone (instead of at a central air handler)? 2) Any numbers on actual seasonal efficiency of typical new gas boilers vs. condensing boilers, for a building with a design load probably about 1 million Btu/hr (not residential equipment!) Terry? Tom A? Others? Thanks Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 14:55:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA07361 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:55:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA07945 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:53:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23356; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:48:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:43:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22610 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:43:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22597 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:43:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.125] (pm1a22.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.152]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA01396; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:49:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:49:12 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2194443@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Lab mechanicals Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1871 Marc Rosenbaum wrote: >Andy Schapiro and I are working as consultants to a design team working on a >small lab building in VT. Some questions: > >1) Humidification is needed (large airflows) in heating season. How to >do it? >We assume steam is safest from IAQ point of view. We'd like to use gas rather >than electric as the fuel. Are there standard ways to individually inject >steam as required by zone (instead of at a central air handler)? > >2) Any numbers on actual seasonal efficiency of typical new gas boilers vs. >condensing boilers, for a building with a design load probably about 1 million >Btu/hr (not residential equipment!) > Have you seen the new "Guide to Energy-Efficient Commercial Equipment" from ACEEE? There might be some useful products listed with specifications. Sells for $25. Publication orders: 202/429-0063. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 14:56:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA07370 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:56:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA08353 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:54:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23506; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:48:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:44:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22669 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:44:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin39.mx.aol.com (mrin39.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.149]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22663 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:44:07 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin39.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA06632 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:49:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:49:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980209144921_-928099497@mrin39.mx> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Green Schools Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1872 You should be able to contact John Todd through... Ocean Arks International 233 Hatchville Road East Falmouth, MA 02536 tel 508.563-2792 mamsler@cape.com www.vsp.cape.com/~bjosephs That's the address for Annals of Earth, the magazine Ocean Arks puts out. Rob Harrison Seattle *** Robert Harrison Architects http://members.aol.com/rhdesign --lyrical sustainable design-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 14:56:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA07375 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:56:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA08403 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:54:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23530; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:44:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22687 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:44:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin39.mx.aol.com (mrin39.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.149]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22679 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:44:17 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin39.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA06699 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:49:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:49:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980209144932_995770119@mrin39.mx> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: The Dilemma Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1873 >>It's refreshing to hear of architects initiating a team approach vs the "auction".<< Negotitated proposals are the norm out here among Northwest EcoBuilding Guild members too, especially where both architect and contractor are members. I haven't put a project out to bid in five years. The Guild has been a great thing for my business too, with lots of cross-referrals. I'd encourage any of you out there who know a few like-minded architects and builders in your area to get together and start talking. Amazing things happen! Rob Harrison Seattle *** Robert Harrison Architects http://members.aol.com/rhdesign --lyrical sustainable design-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 15:02:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA07509 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA11657 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:01:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24100; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:53:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:49:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23639 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:49:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23634 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:49:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id O|D17772; Mon, 09 Feb 1998 14:54:44 EST To: plin@gsa.mail.co.alameda.ca.us, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:05:48 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: alternative building systems Message-ID: <19980209.145416.8822.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199802062255.RAA08439@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,6-10 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1874 Hi, In California, check out the Alameda County Recycling Board, 777 Davis Street, Suite 200, San Leandro, CA 94577 or call them at (510) 614-1699. They have a small but well done directory, very easy to use (easier than Harris) available in print form or on disc. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Inc Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 15:15:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA07881 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:15:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA16735 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:14:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24918; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:08:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:03:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA24463 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:03:10 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id IYYQa25701; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:41:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7c85bfd2.34df31b2@aol.com> Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:41:20 EST To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth Integration Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1875 Chuck, You are right about the name idea as a marketing tool and also about John for sure. I guess it's just my paranoia creeping in again. I don't want to have to get another licence. I like the contest idea. And I like your entry: Spam Housing sounds great. Fred -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 15:18:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA07931 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:18:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA17717 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:16:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25158; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:10:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:06:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA24691 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:06:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24686 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:06:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA32395 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:12:10 -0500 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-64-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.64]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA18826 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:12:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980209151203.006bac54@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 15:12:03 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Condensing Boiler efficiencies and manufacturers In-Reply-To: <199802050700.CAA28922@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1876 I am working on a commercial building with about a 1 million Btu/hr peak load. I am advising the engineer to look at modular condensing gas boilers. I know of 2 -- Trainco and Fulton. Questions: 1. Any others anyone knows of? 2. Does anyone have any experience they would care to share with these or other modular condensing gas boilers? 3. Efficiency of these varies with return water temp -- cooler return at 80F results in 96% efficiency/160F return results in 87% efficiency according to the Fulton literature. Anyone have any data or other experience with in-place efficiencies for these things? The Trianco rep suggests using 90% as an average. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc. Montpelier VT 05602 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 15:22:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA08019 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:22:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA19621 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:20:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25492; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:14:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:10:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25161 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:10:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo30.mail.aol.com (imo30.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.168]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25151 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:10:38 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo30.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4YMWa08035 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:15:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <72994fa5.34df63fb@aol.com> Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:15:53 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: alternative building systems Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1877 In a message dated 98-02-09 14:57:43 EST, you write: . FYI-The Alameda one is good and The Harris directory,520-318-3278, was revised in 1997 and is easier to use than the previous one. Phil ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 15:34:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA08342 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:34:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA23988 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:33:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26350; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:27:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:23:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25976 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:23:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25971 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:23:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA05298 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:28:21 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802092028.OAA05298@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com> Received: from sjx-ca72-16.ix.netcom.com(207.92.177.144) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma005240; Mon Feb 9 14:28:11 1998 X-Sender: rjbynum@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 12:29:57 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Randy Bynum Subject: GBlist: Condensing boilers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1878 Andrew, I do not have much experience with condensing boilers but Glow Core also makes a series of them. Keep in mind that the condensate drains are very acidic and need to be handled with care and proper piping. At one time there were reports of melting PVC pipe used for the vents, and even lawsuits, but I think that problem has been corrected. It was by the way a pipe problem, not a boiler problem. If you nee a contact for Glow Core e-mail me directly I can dig it up for you. Regards Randy Bynum US Energy Controls http://www.usenergycontrols.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 16:00:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA08941 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:00:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA03088 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:58:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27629; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:52:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:48:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA27207 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:48:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27202 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:48:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA10736 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:53:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:53:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy17.vineyard.net(204.17.195.207) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma010720; Mon Feb 9 15:53:50 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Green Schools Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1879 Will the same person who enlightens Marc about Living Machines do the same for me? I'm with him 100%. Fred - talk to Don Mills at Clivus Multrum USA right in your backyard @ 1-800-425-4887. We've used composters successfully for a 9000 SF office building (for the Wampanoag Tribe) with deep bed interior planters to treat the greywater. Beautiful, highly educational, cost effective. Gerry Ives did the same at the Audubon Wildlife Center in Wellfleet. Convert all the waste made in the school directly to useful nutrients without sending any of it oudoors. John Abrams South Mountain Co., Inc. Chilmark, MA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 16:23:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA09308 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:23:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA12787 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:21:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28864; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:15:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:11:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA28521 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:11:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28515 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.38.252.136] (ts10port8.port.net [207.38.252.136]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA24620 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:17:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802092117.QAA24620@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: GB list: compasses Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 16:17:53 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1880 Marc wrot: >useful as fodder if nothing else - I don't have any livestock but........... Yes I remember seeing it some time ago and liking the look......I'll have to dig out my back issues and reread the article. I think you were using the DHWH there for backup heat.....I've been looking into Integrated (Combo) Heating systems for the slab & DHW so it should be of interest to me to see a prototype of that setup...... Thanks again Clarence Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 16:42:48 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA09682 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:42:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA20070 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:41:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29981; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:35:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:31:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA29500 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:31:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail12.digital.com (mail12.digital.com [192.208.46.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29488; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:31:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from us1rmc.bb.dec.com (us1rmc.bb.dec.com [16.57.16.6]) by mail12.digital.com (8.7.5/UNX 1.5/1.0/WV) with SMTP id QAA28461; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:27:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ricks.enet by us1rmc.bb.dec.com (5.65/rmc-17Jan97) id AA15693; Mon, 9 Feb 98 16:21:03 -0500 Message-Id: <9802092121.AA15693@us1rmc.bb.dec.com> Received: from ricks.enet; by us1rmc.enet; Mon, 9 Feb 98 16:27:13 EST Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 16:27:13 EST From: He who toys with the most dies wins To: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Apparently-To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: GBlist: mass-market energy-efficient homes article Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1881 Here is a pointer to an article on building energy efficient homes in Builder Online. builder.hw.net/monthly/1998/feb/bldfeat/spots1.htx The article is aimed at main line builders and tells them that joe average homeowner is willing to pay extra for an energy efficient home, and also tells them how to educate the homeowner. You may want to avoid the rest of the magazine where it encourages builders to litigate against the government when environmental zoning gets in the way. /carl ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 17:04:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA09967 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:04:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA29575 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:03:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA01225; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:57:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:53:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00938 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:53:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00929 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:53:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip14.ivnet.net [206.101.73.174]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA03862 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:59:46 -0800 Message-ID: <34DF7832.A8494E44@ivnet.net> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 13:42:10 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding List Subject: GBlist: Re: GB list: compasses References: <199802091335.IAA09789@amsterdam.interport.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1882 C. Dodge wrote: >You can check by noting the position of the sun at exactly noon: that will > >be true south. Your compass needle will be pointing 16 degrees off to the > >left, toward the east. I hate to be the last one to beat this dead horse, but the sun will only be due South at noon if you are in the center of your time zone. Actually, every different longitude would ideally have its own time zone and would be off-time for each different longitude. The even-hour separations we have subscribed to certainly simplify things, but it only gives an approximation to true noon. A quick glance at a globe will show you how arbirary time zones can get out in the Aleutian islands near the International Dateline. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 17:14:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA10087 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:14:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA03929 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:12:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01780; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:06:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:02:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA01475 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:02:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01469 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:02:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA19378; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:08:09 -0800 Message-ID: <34DF7D6E.EF5F8DA5@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 14:04:30 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: [Fwd: GBlist: Green Schools] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F9500D9D434162E89380BA6D" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1883 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F9500D9D434162E89380BA6D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------F9500D9D434162E89380BA6D Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <34DF7D4D.1C1609C1@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 14:03:57 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Schools References: <2191944@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for saying this Mark. I've looked at living machines a great deal and am a great fan of John Todd from the early Ark days but as I've mentioned before am no fan of living machines - for reasons other than cost. I think they could play a role in some municipal treatment schemes but their best potential usage is in treatment of highly contaminated wastewater especially with a view to either locking the contamination or recycling of the wastes. More direct bioremediation or phytoremediation would probably be simpler though. What I can say that is positive is that as a 'commercial' system it can actually do what it claims unlike quite a number of other secondary treatment systems that are available. Reference for a commercial project done with composting toilets: The C.K. Choi Building at The University of British Columbia In Vancouver, British Columbia, a 30,000 sq. ft. office complex, utilizes composting toilets and urinals for human waste disposal. The new building, which houses The Institute of Asian Research, is not connected to the city's sewer system. As well, a subsurface, greywater recycling system with phragmite (tall grasses) plant varieties, cleanses the greywater which is then used for on-site irrigation. Project Architects: Matsuzaki Wright Architects Inc. Suite 2410-1177 W. Hastings St. Vancouver, B.C. V6E 2K3 Fax: (604) 685-3180 John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > Re: using Living Machines in new buildings - why mix poop with water in the > first place? Composting toilets treat the waste without contaminating water > or creating the need to treat it afterwards. I understand that the Living > Machine proposed for the Oberlin College Environmental Studies Bldg was to cost > between 180-420K$, for a bldg of 14,000 ft2. Composters for the VT Law School > New Classroom Bldg cost about 40K$ and serve 2 of 3 floors of a 24,500 ft2 bldg > with 550 seats. > > I've scratched my head over and over about living Machiines in new > construction, and I can't see why you would choose one over composters and a > modest graywater system. Someone here will doubtlessly enlighten me! > > Marc > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ --------------F9500D9D434162E89380BA6D-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 17:50:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA10661 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:50:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA18512 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:49:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03611; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:43:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:38:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA03146 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:38:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03140 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 17:38:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA20243; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 14:44:03 -0800 Message-ID: <34DF85DB.F88C8157@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 14:40:27 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Lab mechanicals References: <2194443@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1884 Zone control is handled with a high degree of precision in systems used in galleries and museums. Why not incorporate a steam bath or hot tub as an employee benefit - company could probably use the tax deduct. (joke) John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > Andy Schapiro and I are working as consultants to a design team working on a > small lab building in VT. Some questions: > > 1) Humidification is needed (large airflows) in heating season. How to do it? > We assume steam is safest from IAQ point of view. We'd like to use gas rather > than electric as the fuel. Are there standard ways to individually inject > steam as required by zone (instead of at a central air handler)? > > 2) Any numbers on actual seasonal efficiency of typical new gas boilers vs. > condensing boilers, for a building with a design load probably about 1 million > Btu/hr (not residential equipment!) > > Terry? Tom A? Others? > > Thanks > > Marc Rosenbaum > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 18:12:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA10984 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:12:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA26284 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:10:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA04734; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:04:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:00:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04471 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:00:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04467 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:00:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.210] (li-ppp14.hevanet.com [204.119.60.179]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23913 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:06:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <7c85bfd2.34df31b2@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 15:04:56 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth Integration Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1885 Hi, Fred-- You sure do a great job of getting people's wheels turning!! I liked John's idea of a new term for green building. I wasn't crazy about "Earth Integrated", because I personally find that multi-syllable Latin root words lack emotive power--"Affection conquers all" just doesn't have the same ring to it. In John's business, words like "log" "home" "timber" and "frame" connect with our ancient Anglo-Saxon roots; in fact, they go back to North India of thousands of years ago. We know exactly what a log is, whereas the meaning of integrated is kind of hazy. I looked up root words in a dictionary of Indo European etymology, which said that words like "whole" "heal" "health" "holy" come from the root "hael". Using this root in a new way, one could call a designer or builder of whole-istic or integrated houses a "HALEWRIGHT". "Wright" goes back to the root "reg" that means straight, and is the root of words like regular and rectangle. A halewright would build houses that are healthy and right-minded. Building can be traced back to the root-word "bu" from which comes words like "build" "booth" and "husband" (he who is bound to the house). If we combine the "bu" and "hael" roots we could form "TO VAEL" and "VAELER" meaning to build healthy integrated houses--with good values! So waddya think? Best, Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants 4233 SW Corbett Avenue Portland, OR 97201 (503)222-2303 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 18:18:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11045 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:18:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA28546 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:16:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05469; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:10:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:06:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04852 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:06:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04846 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:06:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.9] (iplink25.crocker.com [205.246.4.25]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA05411 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:11:53 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:16:20 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Stopping-from-losing-it Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1886 David You responded... "...money simply as something you trade your life energy for. Each of us has to decide how we want to trade, both in how we work and what we consume." ... I feel similarly so far as money is concerned, but my point has to do with getting the world around us to VALUE our time. That is something else again. Money is one .. very common... denominator; really it is the only common currency. On more personal transactions we trade time and service. and again we should be looking for our time (and therefore self-worth) to be fully and properly valued. Our self esteem as well as the appreciation of our product depends upon it. ...I think. >"Oh, I'm having a hard time getting people to believe I'm >worth what I charge per hour." He said, "They'll believe it when you >believe it." I think he was right I think so too... that's a nice little parable. Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 18:18:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11051 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:18:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA28614 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05498; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:10:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:06:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04866 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:06:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04860 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:06:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.9] (iplink25.crocker.com [205.246.4.25]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA05415 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:11:56 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:16:23 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Earth Integrated Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1887 John ... I like the term (Earth Integrated). though I sense that I like the word "integrated" the better of the two. I would give "integrated" a 10; and "earth" an 8. The challenge of course is to see the term make it to a common and complete understanding that conveys a full sense of natural system integation and responsibility.... before the corruptors snag the word; abduct it, and pull it down-market. Oh, and we still need a single word adjectival qualifier - "green" is the current title holder it seems. EI is a little cumbersome for universal application. Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 18:20:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11070 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:20:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA29229 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:18:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05679; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:12:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:08:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05159 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:08:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from pioneer.hmp.com (pioneer.hmp.com [38.184.171.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05150 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by pioneer.hmp.com (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA29828; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:10:09 -0700 Received: from exc.hmp.com(192.168.1.1) by pioneer.hmp.com via smap (V1.3) id sma029823; Mon Feb 9 16:09:52 1998 Received: by carson.hmp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD3575.DB312A00@carson.hmp.com>; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:14:54 -0700 Message-Id: From: Peter Baston To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Earth Integration Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:14:53 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1888 >---------- >From: Mike O'Brien[SMTP:obrien@hevanet.com] >Sent: Monday, February 09, 1998 4:04 PM >To: greenbuilding@crest.org >Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth Integration > > > >In Rhodesia we used to call it Logical Building it was simply the best way to >do both Commercial and Residential Construction. > >rgds peter > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 18:50:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA12075 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:50:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA08946 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:48:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA06975; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:42:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:39:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA06676 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:38:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06669 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:38:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.101.83]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA7893; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 23:43:26 +0000 Message-ID: <34DF94E1.8BE3873B@which.net> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 23:44:34 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andrew M. Shapiro" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:Sealed combustion gas dryers X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.1.32.19980208192314.006b906c@together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1889 Do you have any launderettes around? If there are gas supplies available, their dryers will run on it, pulling outside air in through one duct and ejecting it through another. Malcolm Scott Andrew M. Shapiro wrote: > One of my co-workers sent this to me: > > "I have a customer who would like to convert their coin-operated > electric > clothes dryers to natural gas. Combustion air is an issue, so what > we're > looking for is a coin-operated, direct-vent (sealed combustion) unit. > The > company who supplies the current dryers says they have "never seen > one". > > Does anybody know of a coin-operated DV dryer? If not, I'd also > appreciate > info on direct-vent gas clothes dryers that are not coin-operated -- > perhaps they could be converted, or maybe even used as is." ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 19:28:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA12451 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:28:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA20120 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:27:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08389; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:16:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA08080 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:15:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08075 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:15:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA23737; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:21:19 -0800 Message-ID: <34DF9CAA.8B54388F@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 16:17:46 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: ensuring our future! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1890 Culligan water was just bought for 1.5 billion. Seems like people spend a lot on ensuring some water quality (not that Culligan delivers). Seeing that cyst contamination is reaching epidemic levels and that workers in areas of environmental design and construction seem to think that they are underpaid (but well informed) put that knowledge to use. A few stocks of U.S. Filter Corp (the pruchaser) may not be amiss and while your at it an investment in Borax could ensure some form of retirement. Might have to stretch the groceries a little. But hell no pain no gain. Looking after our interests in these market driven times. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 19:40:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA12576 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:40:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA23784 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:39:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09037; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:33:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:29:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA08707 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:29:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA08701 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:28:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from garfield.ampsc.com (garfield.ampsc.com [207.102.161.113]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA23497; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:40:18 -0800 Message-ID: <34DF9FD1.1B89@ampsc.com> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 16:31:13 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FUnger@aol.com CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth Integration (used broadly) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1891 Hello Fred, I don't know if this is off thread, but traditionally the affordable home was made out of wood products, however, now I think the costs of wood products probably exceeds masonary products, ie. concrete block, rock and light steel products. Do you, or anyone else know where I can obtain a comparision of costs of materials? Thank you. Richard. R J Moore & Associates Real Estate Development Contract Management Financial Analysis Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250)475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 19:45:48 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA12616 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:45:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA25272 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:44:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09467; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:38:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:34:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA09108 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:34:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09095 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:33:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id SAA0000010314; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:39:13 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980210004052.006d0c8c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 18:40:52 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Earth Integration Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAA09105 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1892 Finding a more desirable descriptive term I think is >exactly on the money, so to speak, anything you can do to make this >technology more recognizable and desirable to the buying public has got >to be beneficial. I'm not necessarily sold on the Earth Integrated >entry, but it is certainly a step up over "Sustainable Building Design", >what a catchy phrase that is. I kind of like Mike O'Brien's 'hael' idea too----would take a bit of explanation but is really new. Even "Logical Building" makes a whole lot of sense. Obvious I go with some wind. The following written earlier: It WOULD be good to come up with a really appropriate term or phrase to describe well-designed 'green' construction. ‘Well-designed’ has to become part of the connotation; most people have some idea of what ‘green’ means, they just don’t connect it with attractive design. I'm afraid the word 'Earth Integration' reminds me a bit of the name an excavation business might call themselves. The problem with so much of the nomenclature traditionally used in this business is that these often connote tree spiking greenies (to the unwashed public of course). The professionals here need to adopt the Madison Avenue approach, something that is catchy and not too serious sounding, yet incorporates the idea. Afraid that ‘green’ and ‘earth’ have too many rather negative connotations in the public eye. Surely among the many listers out there is someone who can do more than offer my type of critique? I’ll bet EBN went through a similar discussion before they adopted their newsletter’s title. Environmental Building IS a good name and it always elicits a "what do you mean?" reaction—but at least people know that it probably means something good. (That is what the tree spikers movement has resulted in-you always need a radical upswing before ideas return to a moderate, and workable middle). The "official" name for green building could become the name of the new magazine and this list could adopt it as its name too. I know it seems foolish, but a name can make all the difference. Sacie Lambertson "Integrated" is a bit too broad; it could be anything. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 19:48:17 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA12641 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:48:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA26049 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:46:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09780; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:40:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:36:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA09267 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:36:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09263 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from garfield.ampsc.com (garfield.ampsc.com [207.102.161.113]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA23772; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 16:47:50 -0800 Message-ID: <34DFA1C5.33CC@ampsc.com> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 16:39:34 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FUnger@aol.com CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Schools References: <3079e921.34df0da1@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1893 Hello Fred, I am disturbed to hear of an excellent natural aquifier element being slated for contamination by a school septic sewage system. First thought.... if it is of community impact, and feeds into anhy of the water supplies, the aquifier must be preserved, and you should only need to have an environmental assessment conducted by your local and more senior government environment and health departments to make this determination and suggested preservation orders effective. second thought..... I think the community school should set an example and treat the situation as part of their environment curriculum at school, make the situation and school development a school project, at least as a reference work, and implement a treatment plant for all of the waste generating from the school development, during and after construction. Richard. R J Moore & Associates Real Estate Development Contract Management Financial Analysis Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250)475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 9 21:12:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA13256 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:12:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA00255 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:11:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA13735; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:05:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:01:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA13281 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:01:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA13277 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 21:00:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust34.tnt5.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.15.34]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA27242 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 1998 18:06:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34DFB69A.653B@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 18:08:26 -0800 From: David Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth Integrated References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1894 Bruce Coldham wrote: > EI is a little cumbersome for universal > application. > EI commonly refers to "Environmental Illness" in my circles...wouldn't want to cross that one! Seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 10 03:55:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA16796 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 03:55:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA08664 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 03:53:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA26894; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 03:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Feb 1998 03:40:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA26651 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 03:40:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from hestia.its.deakin.edu.au (root@hestia.its.deakin.edu.au [128.184.136.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA26647 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 03:40:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from dopp.ab.deakin.edu.au (pc257-slip.ccs-stub.deakin.edu.au [139.132.9.157]) by hestia.its.deakin.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA05098 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:45:49 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199802100845.TAA05098@hestia.its.deakin.edu.au> X-Sender: dopp@mail-g.deakin.edu.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:34:47 +1000 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dopp@deakin.edu.au Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #67 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1895 Dear Greenbuilding, Due to my overload, could you please delist me from the Digest. I have enjoyed it. Yours sincerely David Oppenheim David Oppenheim Senior Lecturer, School of Architecture and Building Deakin Univesity, Woolstores Geelong Victoria Australia 3217 Tel + 61 (0)3 5227 8320 Fax +61 (0)3 5227 8303 and Director, Taylor Oppenheim Architects 9/696 High Street East Kew Victoria Australia 3102 Tel +61 (0)3 9859 7811 Fax +61 (0)3 9859 7822 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 10 08:49:30 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA19286 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:49:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA03314 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:47:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04400; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:42:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:36:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA03644 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:36:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03637 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:36:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.78] (uc13.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.78]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA28573 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:42:14 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:48:26 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: And now for something completely different Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1896 Hi Bion, I notice that you post a lot of information on this list. Freer than any conference. Are you mad because what you need is some support and what you got was attacked? I get the idea you are so tired of it you're willing to change something. Sounds like a cause for celebration. As so often is the case, I have a few thoughts. I've come to believe that when I judge someone and find them guilty (or innocent), it is my soul at risk, not their's. I can safely judge the effects of someone's actions on my life, but when I hold them responsible for meeting my needs or how I feel, I am insane. Maybe I need to set a boundary. Maybe I need to look inward and ask the pain, fear or anger (or stomach, heart or throat) what it's trying to tell me. How is it that my day is totally screwed up by someone else's actions? Where did they get such magic? "You all no who I am. You all know what I do. When you want the shark killed, call me." - Robert Shaw, Jaws "Let me give you some advice. Don't screw with a man's livelihood." - Guido, Risky Business - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 10 08:49:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA19296 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:49:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA03393 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:48:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04428; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:36:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA03674 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:36:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03654; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:36:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA45918; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 06:40:40 -0700 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 06:40:40 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Straube Cc: hollen@vigra.com, GreenBuilding Listserver , Norbert Senff , John LaGamba , Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: preheat of combustion air for Masonry heaters In-Reply-To: . Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1897 Further to the note of below: How important is preheating the combustion air for a masonry heater? Are there any articles, references or studies on this topic? I would rather preheat the combustion air (if really important) outside a building (ie. earthtube, cool closet) rather than robbing heat from the house or fireplace to do the same. _______________________________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________________________________ You said:"One cannot simply supply air to a Rumford, because the cold air reduce the exhaust temeprature and reduces or elimiates the secondary combustion blow the throat. BUT, preheating the intake air, as almost all good wood stove do, means that a direct outdoor air supply can be incoporated. How?, have the air flow through the mass of the fireplace walls for a few feet before enetering the fireplace, or add a metal baffle that is heated by the fire and thus heats the intake air to above room temperature. These measures, glass door and outdoor intake with preheat, will greatly imprve efficiency during burning, reduce particulate emissions, and also allow control of air leakage during times when the fireplace is not on." ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 10 10:28:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA21183 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:28:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA12214 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:27:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09709; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:21:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:15:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09014 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:15:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09001; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:15:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA11102; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:20:12 -0800 Message-ID: <34E06F51.99AFF326@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 07:16:33 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: John Straube , hollen@vigra.com, GreenBuilding Listserver , Norbert Senff , John LaGamba , Strawbale Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: preheat of combustion air for Masonry heaters References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1898 Norbert Senf had an article on his site that talked about very low combustion air requirements (that it could work in a sealed house without any significant negative pressure and that due to higher retained flue temp. that potential for splillage was reduced. I'm not sure about masonry heaters but I would think the general problem would not be so much temperature (because of the extreme temperatures involved) but quantity of air - that a very high oxygen/fuel ratio would result in incomplete combustion or too much cooling to allow for secondary combustion. I think the question of air supply is more a compensation for the hazard potential of poor design. An efficient fireplace would require a low volume of air that could theoretically be accounted for in leakage without major pressure changes (as in Norbert's reference) and heat transfer from exhaust would be of a long enough duration to maintain flows, (in a better world). Maybe it is time to look at efficiency specifications for wood burning and real world practice/results John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Further to the note of below: How important is preheating the combustion > air for a masonry heater? Are there > any articles, references or studies on this topic? I would rather preheat the > combustion air (if really important) outside a building (ie. earthtube, cool > closet) rather than robbing heat from the house or fireplace to do the same. > _______________________________________________________________________________ > Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > ______________________________________________________________________________ > > You said:"One cannot simply supply air to a > Rumford, because the cold air reduce the exhaust temeprature and reduces > or elimiates the secondary combustion blow the throat. BUT, preheating > the intake air, as almost all good wood stove do, means that a direct > outdoor air supply can be incoporated. How?, have the air flow through > the mass of the fireplace walls for a few feet before enetering the > fireplace, or add a metal baffle that is heated by the fire and thus heats > the intake air to above room temperature. These measures, glass door and > outdoor intake with preheat, will greatly imprve efficiency during > burning, reduce particulate emissions, and also allow control of air > leakage during times when the fireplace is not on." > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 10 10:50:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA21393 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:50:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA22318 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:49:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11067; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:39:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10681 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:39:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin53.mail.aol.com (mrin53.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.163]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10677 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:39:13 -0500 (EST) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin53.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id KAA09545 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:44:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 10:44:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980210104431_2000218015@mrin53> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Earth Integration Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1899 Hey folks, I'm late on this thread, but how's about "Natural Design and Building" ? Tony Novelli ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 10 11:11:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA21715 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA01178 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:10:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12199; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:04:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:00:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA11886 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:00:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11880 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:00:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LUZ11949; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:04:36 EST To: RCmathis1@aol.com, Greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:04:23 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Sliding doors Message-ID: <19980210.110425.9070.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5-6,11-12,14-21 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1900 Chris, Sorry to bother you but I consider you the window guru. I have a client with sliding glass doors that "whistle" when the wind blows. Since he faces the ocean, that is often. We have determined that the problem is the gaskets - they are either worn or deteriorated from the salt air. We are trying to do the right thing environmentally and replace the gasketing, rather than the entire door/window unit.(16'x9'). The brand name appears to be either Thermalum or Thermalume. The local distributor in Miami is no longer available. Is the above company still in business, how can I contact them or, if they are defunct, is there any other company that can provide the necessary gaskets? Thanks for any guidance. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Inc. Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 10 12:21:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01083 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:21:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA08957 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:37:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14177; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:31:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:27:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13851 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:27:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from saclink2.csus.edu (saclink2.csus.edu [130.86.82.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13845 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:27:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802101627.LAA13845@solstice.crest.org> Received: from PC-ANTHRO-04.mnh.csus.edu by saclink2.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA298728392; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:33:12 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "PE" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 08:09:17 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Earth Integration Reply-To: sac28787@saclink.csus.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1901 Mike O'B's earnest try at a name was most enjoyable. I can see folks now askings, Well, whut's Hael? (in dialect, wus hael or wassail), at which point everyone has a long drink of mead. The grumpier (you know who you are) can simply tell the rest to Go To Hael, being green with envy of the inventive. I see.... Silent Spring Eco-Beds, Royal Flush Toilets, 'DebtnTacky" Sure-Fire Homes, Natural or Natty Homes, Green and Bore It drills... All follows the corporate/govt rule: when in doubt or unable to act, adopt a name and elect officers. If desperate, appoint a committee. The comedy potential per kiloJoule is enormous. And a great big Green to all from Pet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 10 12:21:17 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01092 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:21:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA07624 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:32:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13804; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:27:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:22:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13404 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:22:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13397 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:22:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.55]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 2059000 ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:25:33 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980210112148.0069eed8@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:21:48 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: Lab Mechanicals In-Reply-To: <199802092238.RAA03177@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1902 >1) Humidification is needed (large airflows) in heating season. How to do it? >We assume steam is safest from IAQ point of view. We'd like to use gas rather >than electric as the fuel. Are there standard ways to individually inject >steam as required by zone (instead of at a central air handler)? > Try the following company. They make gas-fired humidification equipment. DriSteem Humidifier Company 14949 Technology Drive Eden Prairie, MN 55344 612-949-2415 612-949-2933 fax sales@dristeem.com ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 10 12:21:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01106 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:21:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA11791 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:47:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14979; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:41:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:37:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14582 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:37:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14578 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:37:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.55]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 2072800 ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:39:57 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980210113612.0069eed8@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:36:12 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: compasses In-Reply-To: <199802092238.RAA03177@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1903 >C. Dodge wrote: >You can check by noting the position of the sun at exactly >noon: that will be true south. Your compass needle will be pointing 16 degrees off to the >left, toward the east.< > >I hate to be the last one to beat this dead horse, but the sun will only be due >South at noon if you are in the center of your time zone. Actually, every >different longitude would ideally have its own time zone and would be off-time >for each different longitude. The even-hour separations we have subscribed to >certainly simplify things, but it only gives an approximation to true noon. A >quick glance at a globe will show you how arbirary time zones can get out in the >Aleutian islands near the International Dateline. > I'll give that horse one more whack --- What we are looking for is solar noon not 12:00. Determine solar noon for that day by splitting the time between sun rise and sun set at your location. Drive a stake in the ground. At this time the shadow of the stake will be pointing in the direction of true north. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 10 12:37:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01408 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:37:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06474 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:36:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18306; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:30:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:26:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17763 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:25:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from msmail.co.alameda.ca.us (msmail.co.alameda.ca.us [166.107.250.98]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17753 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:25:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802101725.MAA17753@solstice.crest.org> Received: by msmail.co.alameda.ca.us with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id <1FXMSJ10>; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:34:49 -0800 From: "Lin, Paul, GSA-Recycle" To: Pbsustain@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding Subject: Re: FW: GBlist: re: alternative building systems Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:31:00 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1904 Thanks! ---------- From: Pbsustain@aol.com To: Lin, Paul, GSA-Recycle Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: FW: GBlist: re: alternative building systems Date: Friday, February 06, 1998 4:45PM In a message dated 98-02-06 18:06:00 EST, you write: << Hi. I'm looking specifically for recycled-content building products. Especially post consumer recycled content. So far, the Harris Directory was pretty good, and the Oikos on-line directory was OK, but I was wondering if anyone knows of any other resources, especially in California. >> Recycled-Content Product Database: Introduction This site is free from Californnia DOC and combines Harris Directory and the following dbase. Only drawback is it only gives 5 firms in response to a search. The Recycling Data Network This is a subscription service but between it, oikos and Harris Directory, that's quite a bit. Sweet's Home Page Doesn't have a search for recycled products but individual company web sites have good information. In addition Alameda, SF and LA have some level of help and directories from either the county or city recycling offices. Hope it helps, Phil Bailey ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 10 18:36:00 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11403 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:36:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA01648 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:34:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08278; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:28:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:22:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA07487 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:22:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.unidial.com (unidial.com [206.112.0.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA07469; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:22:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from ast (1Cust114.tnt14.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.39.114]) by mail.unidial.com (8.8.7/ntr.net 3.0.0) with SMTP id XAA17438; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:28:06 GMT Message-ID: <34E0E511.9C@unidial.com> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:38:57 -0700 From: Bill Hunt X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E-KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: strawbale@crest.org Subject: Re:GBlist: massmarket energy efficient homes article Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1905 Hello all! (This started as a discussion between Frank Merewether and Bill Hunt ) I(Bill) wrote this just *before* reading the article (at for the sb list) : For up-front cost effectiveness, I've heard it asked: Why not just blow wet spray cellulose into 2x4 or 2x6 frame, and wrap the exterior with one or 2" of styrofoam? Hard to argue with, I thought, for *dollar cost*. Sure, there's embodied energy issues, chemically sensitive people, aesthetic preferences for sb, etc. Many, however, want to know the upfront (*and* medium to long term energy) *dollar costs*. I haven't seen real cost analysis of strawbale versus R-control foam wall panels (perhaps the quickest to build, from what I hear), Kiva block (claims to be the cheapest foam block), or cellulose (like the Watt system). I've put this issue out to the sb list before, and didn't get any data, though John Swearingen had some encouraging, reasoned, pro-sb comments (their p+b designs use less wood than frame, for example, unlike most p+b designs I've seen). Accuracy of cost numbers is important, and difficult, of course. An owner-builder I worked with recently on a Faswall block project had seen numbers (from Faswall) claiming Faswall to be less than 2x4 frame; this was not his experience. (sorry I don't know the bottom line numbers. I'm mainly a carpenter, not a contractor. I'll pursue these numbers. I do know that particular custom design could be made more efficient).Any impartial cost comparisons you experts would be willing to share? The Builder Online article makes me realize a quality production builder (Watt Homes)is *doing* 2x4 frame, blown with cellulose, wrapped with OSB and 1", r-7 foam. Along with other energy upgrades(like sill seals, and r-45 in attics), their homes are saving over 50% of energy costs, and have better indoor air quality. (Passive solar design isn't even mentioned, interestingly). Comments? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 10 18:41:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA12039 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:41:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA03725 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:39:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08798; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:33:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:29:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08400 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08396 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:29:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip23.ivnet.net [206.101.73.183]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA15416 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:36:23 -0800 Message-ID: <34E0E376.C3732ED5@ivnet.net> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:32:06 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Condensing Boiler efficiencies and manufacturers References: <3.0.1.32.19980209151203.006bac54@together.net> <34E0D90E.5B6C0504@ivnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1906 Andrew, Another boiler manufacturer is Aerco. Their Benchmark line touts efficiencies to 96%+ and they have units in your BTU range. Small footprint, too. Aerco International, Inc. 159 Paris Ave. Northvale, NJ 07647 800 526-0288 201-768-2400 201 768-7789 faxBruce DonelsonA Better Builder > Andrew M. Shapiro wrote: > > > I am working on a commercial building with about a 1 million Btu/hr peak > > load. I am advising the engineer to look at modular condensing gas > > boilers. I know of 2 -- Trainco and Fulton. Questions: > > 1. Any others anyone knows of? > > 2. Does anyone have any experience they would care to share with these or > > other modular condensing gas boilers? > > 3. Efficiency of these varies with return water temp -- cooler return at > > 80F results in 96% efficiency/160F return results in 87% efficiency > > according to the Fulton literature. Anyone have any data or other > > experience with in-place efficiencies for these things? The Trianco rep > > suggests using 90% as an average. > > > > Andy Shapiro > > Energy Balance, Inc. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 10 18:45:06 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA12057 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:45:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA04900 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:43:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09277; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:37:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:33:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08709 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:33:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08703 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:33:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip23.ivnet.net [206.101.73.183]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA15462 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:39:56 -0800 Message-ID: <34E0E44B.A7478006@ivnet.net> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:35:39 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: humidifcation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1907 Marc, For energy effiency, ultrasonic humidification may be your best bet. Ultrasonic provides (typically) a very fine droplet size. Fine droplets are important: large droplets condense faster, which means less humidity and more waste water. I haven't used these guys, but have seen their advertising: Stulz of North America 5350 Spectrum Dr., Suite I Frederick, MD 21703 ph 301 663-8885 fax 301 663-9174 www.stulz.com I have used this next outfit, they are real helpful. This approach uses compressed air and low pressure water to generate a mist. Changing air pressure and water pressure influence droplet size and gallons per hour. This would be most appropriate if the lab will have compressed air already. My bet cheaper than ultrasonic to set up, probably easier to maintain, may take more energy (for compressed air) to operate. You can also use hot water for atomization for this system. One of the principle advantages to spray humidification is that you don't have a buildup of scale in the machine, which can be a big nuisance in some systems. Spraying Systems Co.; 708 665-5000 in Illinois Represented by AB Associates (Talk to Reed Falkenberg) 7850 Barbur Blvd. Portland, OR 97219 503-246-5400 503-246-5517 fax 503 292-7222 home E-mail reedwfsr@teleport.com Bruce Donelson A Better Builder ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 10 22:32:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA17638 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:32:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA08496 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:31:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA18031; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:24:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:20:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17542 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:20:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17529; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:20:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA05945; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:25:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:25:40 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: preheat of combustion air for Masonry heaters To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" cc: hollen@vigra.com, GreenBuilding Listserver , Norbert Senff , John LaGamba , Strawbale Listserver X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1908 On Tue, 10 Feb 1998, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Further to the note of below: How important is preheating the combustion > air for a masonry heater? Are there > any articles, references or studies on this topic? I would rather preheat the > combustion air (if really important) outside a building (ie. earthtube, cool > closet) rather than robbing heat from the house or fireplace to do the same. Preheating for combustion is not the same as preheating intake air with an earth tube -- to a wood fire, -20 C and 20 C are pretty much the same temperature! In a masonry stove, the temperatures are very high, and so all gases and liquids will be burned, even if the some cooler air does eneter. But, the design of most of these stoves is such that intake air is naturally preheated by the air flow path into the stove, like it is in good old stoves. Remememebr also that the air flow requirements of masonry stoves are so low that the cold energy that might be taken into the firebeox is less of an issue, and that air from within the house is less of an issue. So, a proper masonry stove does not really need preheating -- use the earth tube to provide make up air that is required for all of your needs, masonry stive included. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 10 23:49:04 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA18771 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:49:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA06635 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:47:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA20913; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:41:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:37:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA20593 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:37:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mail.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.153]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20588 for ; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:37:13 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 2KROa26146; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:40:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7539e521.34e12ba3@aol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 23:40:01 EST To: jean_gallagher@macgate.csuchico.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: GERMAN MORTGAGES Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1909 Jean Sorry to be so long getting back to this. You are absolutely right that after 30 year mortgage terms, the savings on monthly payments start to be pretty paltry. When I was working with Benson Woodworking, we explored these issues in some detail. Tedd Benson came up with the very intriguing solution of applying Stewart Brands separation of layers (see How Buildings Learn) to financing as well as designing and building a home. All of the sudden the numbers made a lot more sense. As an added benefit, the bankers as well as the owners are assured of protecting their investment over time. Tedd's concept: A 100 year or longer note on the land, foundation and timber frame structure. (Bensons design and build their homes for a 300 year expected life.) A revolving maybe thirty year note for the skin: (insulation, siding, roof, fenestration, etc.) A revolving 10 or so year note for systems, partitions, cabinets, remodeling, etc. A line of credit for maintenance. Interest bearing savings or money market accounts that accrue some of the unspent off cycle monies in the revolving loans and thus reduce the interest paid out. Tie all this to a single application, appraisal, closing and legal package. We explored building relationships with several mortgage organizatons. Tedd took the concept to a fairly senior banker at Chase Manhattan. The bankers liked the concept but couldn't suggest a way to make it happen. I think the big problems with a 100 year mortgage is the same issue in my earlier mortgage post. Very scary for a banker to tie up money for a 100 years. That's a long time to bet on any investment. A hundred years ago, the automobile was just being invented. The first phones were being hooked up. Edison may have had a few light bulbs out there. Something like eighty percent of the population lived and working on farms. Bet on a 100 year mortgage in 1898 at the then going rates and you would have missed out on Microsoft, IBM, Bell Telephone, General Motors, Standard Oil (remember them), etc. It would have been a pretty lousy investment in hindsight even if you didn't pick all the big winners in the stock market. These guys are in it for the cash after all. Who lives in a house for a hundred years anyway? The current influence and limits of Fannie Mae et al, are an even bigger hurdle even if you could find an interested banker. I wonder if thirty years or less may not be more than enough for a mortgage if the regulations of the current systems were more rational in addressing qualitative differences in the buildings being financed. These issues are just beginning to be addressed with solutions like energy efficient mortgages. Similarly recognizing the qualitative difference between a Benson Timber frame and a hacked together raised ranch would be a huge improvement over financing based on the number of bedrooms and square footage. I talked to Tedd after reading your post to see what progress they have made. He suggeted that anyone that could make a long term mortgage work would earn his eternal gratitude. And you'll probably get rich to boot. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 04:27:45 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA21680 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 04:27:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA07568 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 04:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA27420; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 04:20:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 04:16:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA27189 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 04:15:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA27183 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 04:15:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id WsG10277; Tue, 10 Feb 1998 22:54:13 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 20:02:19 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth Integration Message-ID: <19980210.203235.3614.8.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <6e9dfe36.34df1e59@aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-6 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1910 Anyone think to include the word "Gaia"? It might be a currently growing buzz word- as well as avoid the connotations with "earth" as described. Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 07:57:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA23352 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:57:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA09622 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA01815; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:46:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA01355 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mail.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.155]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01351 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:46:11 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4ELUa12997 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:51:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:51:24 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: massmarket energy efficient homes article Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 82 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1911 >>Bill Hunt Any impartial cost comparisons you experts would be willing to share? The Builder Online article makes me realize a quality production builder (Watt Homes)is *doing* 2x4 frame, blown with cellulose, wrapped with OSB and 1", r-7 foam. Along with other energy upgrades(like sill seals, and r-45 in attics), their homes are saving over 50% of energy costs, and have better indoor air quality. << Bill I can't do cost comparison with straw bales since I don't know anyone who is doing them professionally as a contractor. I hear all sorts of great cheap costs per square foot but they most likely are for owner/builder (and most likely just material costs) and not from a professional contractor (we are held to a much higher standard when being paid, and for good reason) My 1990 house is framed with 2X6 walls with net & blown cellulose, steel wind bracing, _no_ plywood or OSB, 1" foil faced R7 foam board with taped seams, 3/4 firring for air space/drainage plane, and siding. The techniques for construction are no different than standard stud wall and platform construction, i.e. it's mostly built on the deck and tipped up. Some amount of detail work from a ladder to finish off and tape areas after erection but not that much. Looking at the labor and materials for construction the costs are only about 10 per cent more than a standard wall with 2X6 walls with net & blown cellulose, plywood or OSB, and siding. The return on the difference in cost is great. And I know how air tight and consistent the wall section performance is. Strawbale construction seems like it couldn't possibly achieve the same air tightness and consistent R value throughout the structure and still allow for use of standard mechanical parts for plumbing, heating and electric. (How do you attach a box to a straw bale for and outlet that will satisfy the inspector?) When we discuss platform/stud wall costs to strawbale, SIP, log cabin or whatever, lets realize we are comparing only one component of the house, the shell. We still need foundation, roof, mechanicals, finish floors, plumbing fixtures, cabinets, and on and on. If these finishes are not held constant for comparison then the bantering about of costs per square foot are meaningless. And I hope that Watt Houses is installing HRV units, they are not just a good idea, they are essential to a tight house. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave Assoc., Contractors Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 07:58:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA23357 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:58:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA09636 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:56:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA01819; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:50:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:46:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA01365 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:46:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mail.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.156]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01361 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:46:21 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4WTUa10171 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:51:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <769e8645.34e19ed1@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:51:27 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Earth Integration Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 82 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1912 >>I'm late on this thread, but how's about "Natural Design and Building" ?<< Sounds like nudist colony planning and construction, might get people excited anyway. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Contractors Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 08:48:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA23921 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:48:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA27152 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:47:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03811; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:41:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:37:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA03482 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:36:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03475 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (se13.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.46]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA04502 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:42:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34E1A992.2F5E@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:37:22 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: name game Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1913 What I think we're looking for here is a word or term that does several things at once. It should first and foremost immediately instill a sense of goodness, warmth, healthiness, wellbeing if you will. It must also create in the minds eye a specific value level, a feeling worth, desirability, money well spent. Yet it must create the feeling that this is reasonably the least one should expect in a product/home, I desrve and will settle for nothing less. Most importantly it needs to be something from the vernacular, something that everyone is familiar and comfortable with, something that they already know and just need to be reminded of. Is that so much to ask of you people? What the Hael is wrong here? Gaia is nice, natural is good, intagrated is fine but do they really fullfill the basic, simple requirements here? I think not. Come on, scratch those masterful brains a little. Shake off those winter duldrum blues and get to it, we're expecting great things of you. S.I. Hyakawa Chairman The Committee for Semantical Excellence Berkely, CA. aka Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 10:17:15 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25539 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:17:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA10072 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:15:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07451; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:09:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:05:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06941 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06935 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:05:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA09551; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:10:37 -0800 Message-ID: <34E1BE8A.775BE06D@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 07:06:51 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: name game - emperor's garb References: <34E1A992.2F5E@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1914 The words green and natural as in greenbuilding, greenhomes, the natural house have already developed some history of usage and carry some cultural history. While never personally fond of the words themselves I am finding that like so many words they are beginning to develop beyond their specific meaning and are starting to define some of the concepts described below to a larger base of people. So I use them (specifically greenbuilding) more and more frequently as a defining term because I find that people immediately understand in a general sense what is being described and I can then go on to more specific discussion. All that remains is to further develop the range of associations described by using some words that have developed a similar cultural relavence like ecological, sustainable, environmental, etc. They may not fit but they are already being made to fit (look at what words are being used by marketers for the introduction of environmentally friendly products - but like the emperor's clothes they may need some substance to maintain their relavence. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Chuck Hinckley wrote: > What I think we're looking for here is a word or term that does several > things at once. It should first and foremost immediately instill a sense > of goodness, warmth, healthiness, wellbeing if you will. It must also > create in the minds eye a specific value level, a feeling worth, > desirability, money well spent. Yet it must create the feeling that this > is reasonably the least one should expect in a product/home, I desrve > and will settle for nothing less. Most importantly it needs to be > something from the vernacular, something that everyone is familiar and > comfortable with, something that they already know and just need to be > reminded of. > > Is that so much to ask of you people? What the Hael is wrong here? Gaia > is nice, natural is good, intagrated is fine but do they really fullfill > the basic, simple requirements here? I think not. Come on, scratch those > masterful brains a little. Shake off those winter duldrum blues and get > to it, we're expecting great things of you. > > S.I. Hyakawa > Chairman > The Committee for Semantical Excellence > Berkely, CA. > > aka > Chuck Hinckley > Ash Creek Design > Earlville, NY > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 10:32:24 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25939 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:32:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA14837 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:30:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08384; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:24:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:20:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08047 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:20:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08042 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:20:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA10805 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:25:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-25.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.153) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma010782; Wed Feb 11 09:25:44 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980211102457.006e3bd4@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:24:59 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Something different...conclusions and thanks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1915 Re: "Now for something totally different:" Many thanks to all of you who wrote regarding my dilemma related to the time expended on responding to "freebies." About 90% of the messages were cordial and helpful, and even the few flames were illuminating, so to speak. Here is what I learned. 1. A closed mouth gathers no feet. 2. One gets out of something, directly in proportion to what one puts in. 3. _Actually_ helping people is worth more much than $70/hour 4. Take care of requests on a case-by-case basis, since you never know if today's favor is connected to tomorrow's great paying project. 5. Be nice to everyone regardless of how "stupid" their question seems, since we were all new to the field at one time or another... 6. Right up front, be clear on the bounds of what is for "free" and what is for "fee." 7. The toes you step on during your climb to the top, can be connected to your rear end on your slide back down... 8. Be humble, since it seems like one of the least frequently experienced states in human existence. As usual I learned a lot from the greenbuilding list, which I have concluded is special because of the great people on it and the usually high level of professionalism shown even to dumb posts. My conclusion, learn to cope... Thanks again -- a hopefully wiser Bion Howard. | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 10:38:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25989 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:38:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA16372 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:36:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08867; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:30:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:27:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08498 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.167]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08494 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:26:48 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id TOZQa04254; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:32:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3e41ec2d.34e1c48b@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:32:25 EST To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: name game Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1916 Too bad "Smart House" got taken and used for a stupid concept. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 11:13:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26465 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:13:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA00326 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:12:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11159; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:06:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:02:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10833 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:01:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ecs.umass.edu (piper.ecs.umass.edu [128.119.91.208]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10827 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:01:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from isp00.ecs.umass.edu (isp00.ecs.umass.edu) by ECS.UMASS.EDU (PMDF V5.0-7 #6523) id <01ITG9F0L1SG9X778C@ECS.UMASS.EDU> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:07:49 -0500 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 02:50:58 -0500 From: Tom Genovese Subject: GBlist: more products used in cement To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <34E15862.B799FA70@ecs.umass.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit References: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1917 On Fri, 9 Jan 1998, Steve Hussey wrote: >In the UK they use Pulverised Fuel Ash (PFA) in concrete mixes to >'lighten the load'. (I believe it's also called fly ash.) -- Our office at UMass has just undertaken a problem along the lines of this recent thread. We are looking for places where foundries can put their "sand fines" -- a by-product of the casting process. Sand fines are similar to fly ash -- a fine dust with some slightly toxic compounds incorporated in it. Mass. DEC needs to change their regulations on the disposal of this by-product (deemed usable material in other parts of the country). It currently goes straight to the landfill. Any references or experience with this product would be truly appreciated. Please feel free to email me privately. Here are more specific questions we need to answer: - In what markets have other states found a useful resting place for sand fines? (Cement aggregate? Road pavement?) - Any information leading to a risk assessment of sand fines -- What is the threat of exposure? (the greatest concern lies in the phenols, for which no standard exists) Thanks, Tom Tom Genovese CEERE- Center for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy UMass Amherst, MA http://www.ecs.umass.edu/mie/labs/ceere/index.html (click "STEP" for more info on this office) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 11:19:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26582 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:19:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03069 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:18:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11630; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:12:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:08:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA11274 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:08:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net ([204.119.177.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11270 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:08:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.185] (1Cust185.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.185]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA09292 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 08:13:55 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802111613.IAA09292@norway.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: name game Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 08:17:04 -0000 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1918 In regards to creating a new and exciting name for our movement, no one has mentioned "Bau-biologie." Bau is German for building, perhaps a descendant of the ancient "bu." This term suggests that the house is a part of nature. It also supports the idea that the building is a system of interactions and has an ecology of its own--a building ecology. This term already has a strong identification with a specific, existing school of thought, but it seems to be a complimentary ideology. Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 11:51:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA27439 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:51:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA16960 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:49:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13021; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:43:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:39:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12665 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:39:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12659 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:39:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.17] (iplink17.crocker.com [205.246.4.17]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA11776; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:45:54 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:49:39 -0500 To: FUnger@aol.com From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Living Machines Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1919 Fred It is Ecological Engineering that you probably should be speaking to Ecological Engineering Associates (for profit) Susan Peterson, 508-748-3224 (John Todd et al are the not-for-profit research entity as far as I know) Also, you might like to be talking to Tom Leue who is the manager of the Living Machine system that has now bene operating for a year or more in Ashfield MA. Tom (and Harry Dodson too) have a great deal of experience as a town that has actually built one of these in the state (the first) Tom & Nancy LEUE Ashfield MA. 01096 413-628-4533 (w) The Ashfield plant was very expensive .. but that, as I understand it, was largely due to the hugely conservative civil engineering design to contain the aquatic operation. Marc' R raises a good point ... the scale and nature of a single school building alone may not be a sufficient driver for a "living machine" because they need a human (manager/caretaker) as part of their continuing cost. What else is there in the neighborhood? Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 14:18:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00403 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:18:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA21285 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:16:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22007; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:10:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:06:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA21543 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:06:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21534 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 14:06:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id NAA0000032311; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:11:55 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980211191414.006d54e0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:14:14 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Earth Tubes Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1920 Earth tubes--just exactly what are these? In the Jan/Feb issue of "This Old House" I note a pipe 'swaddled in a jacket of foam insulation 2" thick' with the claim that the heat loss of water carried through this tube, buried 5 ft and 120 ft long, is virtually nil. Wouldn't anything buried 5 feet with higher frost depth loose a lot less heat? In the picture of this tube it looks like it the foam is encased in non-perf. drain tile. I would be interested in comments on this and sources for the product. And is this an earth tube, or is that term simply generic? Thanks Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 16:34:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA02646 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:34:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA19837 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:32:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00202; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:26:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:22:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA29716 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:22:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29705 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:22:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.168] (li-ppp03.hevanet.com [204.119.60.168]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13708 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:27:50 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980211191414.006d54e0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:26:22 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth Tubes Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1921 Hi, Sacie-- It seems like the earth should be a good insulator, but I think it would depend on moisture content. Here in western Oregon, we have soil moisture all year round. Because of highly fractured basalts, there can be rivers of underground water close to the surface. So for us the wet earth is more like an infinite heat sink. In the Willamette Valley, temperature of the earth 5 feet down is about 54 degrees on average, much warmer than winter outdoor air temperature. But, water can hold so much more heat than air, the heat loss from a building into wet earth can still be quite high. To illustrate, would you rather be surrounded by 40 degree air or 40 degree water? Steve Loken tried out an earth tube on a house in Montana, to pre-warm outdoor air flowing into the house. The tube was wrapped around the basement walls near the footings. He measured the air temperature rise in winter--and found that the warming effect was substantial. Of course, winter air in Montana is so cold it sparkles! Best, Mike >Earth tubes--just exactly what are these? In the Jan/Feb issue of "This Old >House" I note a pipe 'swaddled in a jacket of foam insulation 2" thick' with >the claim that the heat loss of water carried through this tube, buried 5 ft >and 120 ft long, is virtually nil. Wouldn't anything buried 5 feet with >higher frost depth loose a lot less heat? In the picture of this tube it >looks like it the foam is encased in non-perf. drain tile. I would be >interested in comments on this and sources for the product. And is this an >earth tube, or is that term simply generic? Thanks Sacie Lambertson > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants 4233 SW Corbett Avenue Portland, OR 97201 (503)222-2303 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 16:57:47 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA02866 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:57:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA00369 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:56:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA01541; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:50:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:46:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA01104 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01100 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:45:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.9] (blf9.acadia.net [205.217.217.9]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA02309 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:51:38 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:49:35 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: name game Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1922 Quote from Bruce: >In regards to creating a new and exciting name for our movement, no one >has mentioned "Bau-biologie." Bau is German for building, perhaps a >descendant of the ancient "bu." This term suggests that the house is a >part of nature... end of quote. Since we want to do environmental building and great design to boot, I suggest the name "Bau-wow." - David ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 17:00:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA02896 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:00:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA01691 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:58:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA01794; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:52:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:48:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA01343 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:48:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01339 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:48:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.9] (blf9.acadia.net [205.217.217.9]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA02487 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:54:30 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:52:26 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: earth tubes Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1923 Earth tubes are being used throughout Scandinavia, Germany and the Netherlands to pre-heat makeup air in residential and commercial buildings. However, the magazine Swedish Building News reports that there have been some problems with mold, mildew and bacterial growth in the tubes. Does anyone on the list know more about this? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 18:00:30 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04325 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:00:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA26891 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:58:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA04915; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:52:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:48:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04498 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:48:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04493 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.43 (pm1-11.hoosier.net [206.106.67.43]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA13032; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:53:49 -0500 Message-ID: <34E22BEC.3389@bloomington.in.us> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:53:34 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth Tubes References: <1.5.4.32.19980211191414.006d54e0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1924 Think about what happens when warm, humid summer air passes through a cool earth tube. You will likely get condensation inside the tube, which leads to microbial growth. Doesn't sound like something I want the air I'm going to be breathing to pass through. I also wonder about larger critters finding their way inside. If you still like the idea of tempering dri winter air, being able to clean such a tube should still be very important. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 18:05:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04385 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:05:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA29049 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:04:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05562; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:58:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:54:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05020 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:54:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from infohwy.com (root@infohwy.com [205.182.52.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05014 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:53:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from traviswe (max2-wld-172.infohwy.com [207.90.236.172]) by infohwy.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA14428 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:00:35 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802112300.RAA14428@infohwy.com> X-Sender: travwest@mail.infohwy.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:00:39 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Travis West Subject: GBlist: Strange odors... (IAQ) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1925
I've just left a client's office building that is experiencing some very strange odors.  It seems that they've had the odors to some degree since the building was built in 1991.

The building is 8 stories tall.  It's a single-tenant building.  The owner occupies the building.
This place is definitley "high tech" and is professionally managed by a 3rd party.
It's a petrochemical company, so no one really wants to complain.  The building manager has found a few concerned individuals though, and is asking for some help.

At first, the odor seemed similar to that found in a Doctor's office.  Very sterile.
After talking to several of the employees, they better described it as a "new band-aid" type of odor.
Break out a new band-aid and you'll know exactly what it smells like.

This is so unusual, I'm hoping someone will have encountered this before.

We'll be going through the mechanical systems, occupied areas, MSDS, etc.  Any suggestions on specific sources to consider?
Right now, I'm going to wash the odor out of my clothes, and take a bath!

Travis West
Burr Engineers, Inc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 18:17:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04472 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:17:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA03404 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:15:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA06311; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:09:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:06:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05979 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:05:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05975 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:05:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.104.138] (usrts1p138.port.net [207.237.104.138]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA24277 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:11:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802112311.SAA24277@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth Tubes Date: Wed, 11 Feb 98 18:12:18 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1926 >Earth tubes--just exactly what are these? I second the question......... Also David....... would the roof have special significance in Bau-wow architecture? Clarence Dodge Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 18:33:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04795 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:33:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA11435 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07180; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:25:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:22:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA06840 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:21:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06834 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:21:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.99.169]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA27260; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:26:26 +0000 Message-ID: <34E233E8.2652F47F@which.net> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:27:37 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andrew M. Shapiro" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Condensing Boiler efficiencies and manufacturers X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.1.32.19980209151203.006bac54@together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1927 87% is around the efficiency of an old fashioned non condensing boiler. This suggests the condensing section is not working unless the water return temperature is low. Perhaps the whole heating system needs to be designed to ensure low return temperatures. Maybe there should be a return temperature control signal to prevent boiler operation above a preset return temperature. These boilers are advertised as high efficiency boilers. The rep. seems to be accepting exaggeration in the claimed efficiencies. Malcolm Scott Andrew M. Shapiro wrote: > modular condensing gas boilers? > 3. Efficiency of these varies with return water temp -- cooler return > at > 80F results in 96% efficiency/160F return results in 87% efficiency > according to the Fulton literature. Anyone have any data or other > experience with in-place efficiencies for these things? The Trianco > rep > suggests using 90% as an average. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 18:50:32 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04968 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:50:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA17291 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08037; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:42:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:38:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA07675 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:38:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07671 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:38:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA24809; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:43:32 -0800 Message-ID: <34E236D2.A671DF25@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:40:02 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: malcolm.scott@which.net CC: "Andrew M. Shapiro" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Condensing Boiler efficiencies and manufacturers References: <3.0.1.32.19980209151203.006bac54@together.net> <34E233E8.2652F47F@which.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1928 I'm coming into this without having read all the previous. When I was looking at condensing boilers on acutal efficiency 90% was suggested as a more realistic reading plus concerns on deterioration on cast components, etc. Looked at the Veisman condensola (?) which boasted stainless components and 96% efficiency over greater range. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: > 87% is around the efficiency of an old fashioned non condensing boiler. > This suggests the condensing section is not working unless the water > return temperature is low. Perhaps the whole heating system needs to be > designed to ensure low return temperatures. Maybe there should be a > return temperature control signal to prevent boiler operation above a > preset return temperature. These boilers are advertised as high > efficiency boilers. The rep. seems to be accepting exaggeration in the > claimed efficiencies. > Malcolm Scott > > Andrew M. Shapiro wrote: > > > modular condensing gas boilers? > > 3. Efficiency of these varies with return water temp -- cooler return > > at > > 80F results in 96% efficiency/160F return results in 87% efficiency > > according to the Fulton literature. Anyone have any data or other > > experience with in-place efficiencies for these things? The Trianco > > rep > > suggests using 90% as an average. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 19:31:00 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA05729 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:30:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA00765 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:29:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09762; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:23:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:19:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA09422 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:19:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09418 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:19:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA25652; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:24:11 -0800 Message-ID: <34E24056.BC705E7D@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:20:39 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Bower CC: "David F. Lambertson" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth Tubes References: <1.5.4.32.19980211191414.006d54e0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> <34E22BEC.3389@bloomington.in.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1929 I'm glad you commented on what I would have hoped would have been immediately thought of as a problem (and not a potential one). Aside from air moisture problems I would also be immediately concerned with the increased potential for contamination from increased exposure to the supply material itself. I have similar concerns with ground circulated water preheat systems. I think ground coupled systems need to be closed systems and the efficiency and approach for that is another whole conversation. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. John Bower wrote: > Think about what happens when warm, humid summer air passes through a > cool earth tube. You will likely get condensation inside the tube, which > leads to microbial growth. Doesn't sound like something I want the air > I'm going to be breathing to pass through. I also wonder about larger > critters finding their way inside. If you still like the idea of > tempering dri winter air, being able to clean such a tube should still > be very important. > -- > John Bower, The Healthy House Institute > http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us > 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 > Phone/fax 812-332-5073 > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 19:35:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA05755 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:35:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA02007 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:33:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10071; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:27:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:23:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA09748 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:23:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09744 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:23:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA25775; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:28:39 -0800 Message-ID: <34E24163.DD598323@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:25:07 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Re: no paper or ashes for the toilet Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1930 I while back I posted a list of amendments that I did not have the author for. The author was David Del Porto of Sustainable Strategies. David and Carol Steinfeld have authored a new book on composting toilets which I think will be very useful. Quoting them: The Composting Toilet Book will be completed in its essential form at the end of the month. It will be in its complete form and distributed by Chelsea Green around April 1. Its aim is to provide the information needed to choose and use these systems in more mainstream applications (than past books have). John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 20:26:30 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA06233 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:26:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA20160 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12200; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:18:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:14:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11885 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:14:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA11881 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:14:42 -0500 (EST) From: Ibe404@aol.com Received: from Ibe404@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id LDBLa05791; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:20:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:20:04 EST To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: name game Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1931 I have kept silent because we are environmental strategists for commercial buildings. On occasion I respond individually, but not often for you deal primarily with residential sustainable issues not within our market and/or client demand. In finding a new name for your movement, I would like to recommend as a base foundation two quotes I utilize in our copy written presentations. They are: "WE SHAPE OUR BUILDINGS, THEREAFTER, THEY SHAPE US" Wiston Churchill "THE REALITY OF THE BUILDING DOES NOT CONSIST IN THE ROOF AND WALLS, BUT IN THE SPACE WITHIN TO BE LIVED IN." Lao-Tzu (B.C. 604-531). What you all talk about is old history. In regard to "free" advise, I deplore and hold strong objections that our multi-disciplinary industries that do not understand that we are now in a "knowledge based society". We are hired at what we consider our true and very real competitor markets values. They are not you and they should be. I can assure you that they do substantially exceed the $70.00p/h Bion Howard mentioned in this e-mail of today. We are hired for our knowledge not our price. For all you, I suggest that you read Bion's summary of the responses for it is excellent and should be viewed as a base foundation of our industry's values and self respect. Feel free to use the above quotes, they are not ours. Thank you for the knowledge and focus on values we strongly support. Irene Bledel CEO & President Environmental Resource process management, LLC 1401 Peachtree Street, N.E. Suite 500 Atlanta, Georgia 30309 Tel: 404-885-6661 Fax: 404-351-5582 Direct e-mail: ibe404@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 21:58:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA07633 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:58:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA25239 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:56:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16205; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:43:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15377 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:43:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15372 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:43:24 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id CQUOa05982; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:48:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6a8ab72e.34e26310@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:48:46 EST To: travwest@infohwy.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Strange odors... (IAQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1932 The weirdest odors I've encountered have invariably been dead animals in wall cavities. Doesn't sound (smell) like bandaids, but if you're looking for sources of weird smells, you might check the walls too. I use my nose to sniff around walls (especially at the molding), and then drill small holes - if something's in the wall, you can usually find it this way. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX IMSHAPIRO@AOL.COM "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 21:58:36 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA07638 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:58:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA25294 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16251; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:51:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:46:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15620 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:46:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15612 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:46:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-99-tnt-btvt-02.ramp.together.net [209.91.2.99]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28209; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:51:45 -0500 Message-ID: <34E263BF.119A9613@together.net> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:51:43 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Travis West CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Strange odors... (IAQ) References: <199802112300.RAA14428@infohwy.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1A88A49F092B868695E8B47E" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1933 --------------1A88A49F092B868695E8B47E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Travis: Suggest starting with central air handling equipment... probably stuff growing inside of it. Also fresh air intakes pulling in contaminated air from too-close exhaust fan, etc. or cooling tower. If not that, then you have your work cut out for you. Good luck. Tom Anderson Travis West wrote: > I've just left a client's office building that is experiencing some > very strange odors. It seems that they've had the odors to some > degree since the building was built in 1991. The building is 8 stories > tall. It's a single-tenant building. The owner occupies the > building.This place is definitley "high tech" and is professionally > managed by a 3rd party.It's a petrochemical company, so no one really > wants to complain. The building manager has found a few concerned > individuals though, and is asking for some help. At first, the odor > seemed similar to that found in a Doctor's office. Very sterile.After > talking to several of the employees, they better described it as a > "new band-aid" type of odor.Break out a new band-aid and you'll know > exactly what it smells like. This is so unusual, I'm hoping someone > will have encountered this before. We'll be going through the > mechanical systems, occupied areas, MSDS, etc. Any suggestions on > specific sources to consider?Right now, I'm going to wash the odor out > of my clothes, and take a bath! Travis WestBurr Engineers, Inc. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------- > > *--- Travis West, Author -- sivart@infohwy.com -- (281)367-1177 ---* > > AUTHOR OF: "A Parent's Guide to The Internet: Raising Your Family on > the > Information Superhighway". A good book for the experienced Net parent, > AND > It's especially great for your friends or family who aren't connected. > > For details and ordering info, e-mail to: parentsguide@infoback.net > =========================================================== > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental > Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to > greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ --------------1A88A49F092B868695E8B47E Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Travis:

Suggest starting with central air handling equipment... probably stuff growing inside of it.

Also fresh air intakes pulling in contaminated air from too-close exhaust fan, etc. or cooling tower.

If not that, then you have your work cut out for you.

Good luck.

Tom Anderson
 
 

Travis West wrote:

I've just left a client's office building that is experiencing some very strange odors.  It seems that they've had the odors to some degree since the building was built in 1991. The building is 8 stories tall.  It's a single-tenant building.  The owner occupies the building.This place is definitley "high tech" and is professionally managed by a 3rd party.It's a petrochemical company, so no one really wants to complain.  The building manager has found a few concerned individuals though, and is asking for some help. At first, the odor seemed similar to that found in a Doctor's office.  Very sterile.After talking to several of the employees, they better described it as a "new band-aid" type of odor.Break out a new band-aid and you'll know exactly what it smells like. This is so unusual, I'm hoping someone will have encountered this before. We'll be going through the mechanical systems, occupied areas, MSDS, etc.  Any suggestions on specific sources to consider?Right now, I'm going to wash the odor out of my clothes, and take a bath! Travis WestBurr Engineers, Inc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*--- Travis West, Author -- sivart@infohwy.com -- (281)367-1177 ---*

AUTHOR OF: "A Parent's Guide to The Internet: Raising Your Family on the
Information Superhighway". A good book for the experienced Net parent, AND
It's especially great for your friends or family who aren't connected.

For details and ordering info, e-mail to: parentsguide@infoback.net
===========================================================

______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________

  --------------1A88A49F092B868695E8B47E-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 21:58:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA07643 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:58:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA25323 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:57:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16263; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:51:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:45:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15559 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:45:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15541 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:45:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id VNK04556; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:07:05 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:29:58 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: name game Message-ID: <19980211.184604.3438.0.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <3e41ec2d.34e1c48b@aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1934 Any takers for Holistic Architecture? Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 22:26:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07910 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:26:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA02904 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA17290; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:19:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:15:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17012 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:15:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA17008 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:15:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA29391; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:19:31 -0800 Message-ID: <34E2696E.D538A71C@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:15:58 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wendy L McDonald CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: name game References: <3e41ec2d.34e1c48b@aol.com> <19980211.184604.3438.0.goldeneagle1@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1935 No unless you wanted to condense it as HOLI-URE and then probably not. In humour John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Wendy L McDonald wrote: > Any takers for Holistic Architecture? > > Samantha M. > Holistic Homeplaces > Denver, CO > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 22:41:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA08299 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:41:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA07063 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:40:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA17968; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:34:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:30:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17582 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:29:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17578 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:29:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from moonpatrol.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@moonpatrol.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.97]) by donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.0-mailhub) with ESMTP id WAA02706 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:35:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by moonpatrol.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.6-client) with SMTP id WAA05980 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:35:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:35:33 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@moonpatrol.rs.itd.umich.edu Reply-To: Peter Reppe To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: lowE/argon filling retrofits for windows Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1936 Hi-- Has someone on this list ever heard of the possibility to get windows retrofitted with a LowE coating and/or argon filling ON SITE? (in our case the windows are double glazed, and the Al frame is in very good shape) Thanks, Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Reppe e-mail: reppe@umich.edu National Pollution Prevention Center phone : 734-936-8386 University of Michigan fax : 734-647-5841 430 E. University Ann Arbor, MI http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub 48109-1115 U.S.A. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reppe -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 11 23:46:32 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA09185 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:46:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA25252 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:44:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA20994; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:39:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:35:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA20761 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:34:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mail.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.152]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20756 for ; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:34:49 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id VHVNa03846; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:39:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8371d407.34e27d05@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:39:30 EST To: ewestbrook@topher.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: ice storm and alternative energy Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1937 Elena Westbrook asked: <> I read that and couldn't help feeling even more skeptical about presumed solutions to a problem few people seem to have a good handle on. While I personally like the idea of a conservative approach to the issue of global warming (reducing pollution makes sense on many levels), I wonder if Al Gore & Co. jetting off to Japan in a state of urgent emergency is a popular, convincing or wise approach to this issue when we can't seem to predict the weather more than a day or so in advance. It's that Chicken Little phenomena, though I know that isn't a popular thing to say. I'd rather see us attacking very clear and demonstrable dangers first. Look at the risks of nuclear power by-products, cigarettes, toxins we dump into the air and water in huge quanities. It seems it should be easier to build some sort of working concencus when the facts are in and basically unarguable. Back to that question of how we make our case very clear, convincing and credible to folks that aren't already on the bandwagon. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 00:32:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA09658 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:32:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA12493 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:30:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA22686; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:24:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:20:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA22386 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:20:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA22382 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:20:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sc17.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.210]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id AAA20136 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:26:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34E28703.6591@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:22:11 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Earth Tubes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1938 Is radon an issue here? Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 01:06:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA09901 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:06:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA27423 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:04:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA23815; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:58:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:54:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA23561 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:54:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from m27.boston.juno.com (m27.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.186]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA23550 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:54:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from jmcniece@juno.com) by m27.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id VNM06956; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:57:47 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: GERMAN MORTGAGES Message-ID: <19980211.200129.6847.15.JMcNiece@juno.com> References: <7539e521.34e12ba3@aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.23 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-28 From: jmcniece@juno.com (J McNiece) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:57:47 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1939 Fred Unger wrote: >>Similarly recognizing the qualitative difference between a Benson Timber frame and a hacked together raised ranch would be a huge improvement over financing based on the number of bedrooms and square footage.<< Modifying banking & appraisal practice may be a slow process. It would be nice if more people could buy into a quality home to begin with. Would more people be able to afford a home of quality if an owner-finish option were available? How much/what finish work could be deferred and still have the buyer be able to qualify for a mortgage? Joanie Joanie Highland McNiece Colorado Springs JMcNiece@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 01:19:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA10017 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:19:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA02304 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:17:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA24285; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:12:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:08:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA23994 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:08:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA23988 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 01:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id WFT10174; Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:27:19 EST To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Earth Tubes/cool tubes problem? Message-ID: <19980211.212201.8183.0.strawboss94@juno.com> References: <1.5.4.32.19980211191414.006d54e0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> <34E22BEC.3389@bloomington.in.us> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2,5-7,16 From: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:27:19 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1940 On Wed, 11 Feb 1998 17:53:34 -0500 John Bower writes: >Think about what happens when warm, humid summer air passes through a>cool earth tube. You will likely get ondensation inside the tube, >which>leads to microbial growth. xbeing able to clean such a tube should still>be very important. Also, seems I remember you need to have the tube underground slope away from house before it comes above ground for outside air and have a drainage system there at the elbow.. Some type of buried 5 gal bucket arrangement was to allow the condensation to drain out of the cool tube. As for stuff growing, I remember my aunt who lived on Bermuda telling me if folks had dirty roofs there, they had dirty water. Everyone used slate roofs to catch their water in cisterns. She also said every now and then you throw a cup of Clorox in but you NEVER stirred. Would it help to throw a cup of clorox down a cool tube occasionally? _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 06:42:13 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA13131 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:42:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA22411 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:40:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA00739; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:34:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:29:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA00473 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:29:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA00469 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:29:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip30.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.49]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA143 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:52:04 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980212064440.0072b13c@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:44:40 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Strange odors... (IAQ) In-Reply-To: <199802112300.RAA14428@infohwy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1941 Travis: In line with the other hints offered, you need to consider almost any surface that may have accumulated stuff. You don't need much in the way of mass to generate concentrations that exceed the odor threshold. Be sure to give some attention to the filters. They may need to be changed. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 07:37:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA13763 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:37:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA05525 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:35:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA01773; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:29:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:25:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA01523 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:25:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01519 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:25:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA29498 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:31:09 -0500 Message-id: <2229423@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 12 Feb 98 07:37:06 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: lowE/argon filling retrofits for windows To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1942 There is a company in the northeast called Bi-Glass which retrofits old wooden single pane divided lite window sash on-site by removing the sash, removing the glass, routing out the sash to accept a double glazed panel (which can be low-e Ar) then re-installing the sash. They are not altering the glass itself. I doubt that an on-site gas fill would work anyway. Marc The local rep for Bi-Glass in NH is Window Master PO Box 81 Route 101 Dublin, NH 03444 800 842-3537 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 07:43:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA13795 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:43:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA06891 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:42:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA02118; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:36:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:31:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA01879 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:31:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01875 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:31:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA29807 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:37:28 -0500 Message-id: <2229463@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 12 Feb 98 07:43:25 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth Tubes/cool tubes problem? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1943 My sense is that earth tubes for make-up ventilation supply air make sense in a cold climate. The solution to the potential condensation problem is just use them as an inlet in the heating season months, when the tube innards are well above the outdoor air dewpoint. Years ago at ASES a fellow from Wisconsin presented his passive solar underground house, and the make-up air came from earth tubes, which I think were 3 lengths of 6 inch plastic pipe perhaps 100 feet long. He had incoming air of about 60F I recall. Even if the air can be preheated to above freezing, that would be a benefit in a home with an energy recovery ventilator, since it would eliminate the complication and inefficiency of having a defrost cycle. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 09:03:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA14503 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:03:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA27318 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:01:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04594; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:55:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:50:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04250 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:50:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.165]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04243 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:50:20 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 1HNHa05050 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:55:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <76a16ef2.34e2ff68@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:55:50 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Quotes Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1944 Friends, Irene's quotes from Winston Churchill and Lao-Tzu inspired me to follow the advice and wisdom of another great philosopher. I've decided to "Think Global and Act Loco" by using Irene's quotes in the marketing brochure for my new development. Not a whole lot of folks quoting Lao-Tsu as they peddle raised ranches around here. I'm thinking it might attract the kind of potential buyers that I would want to deal with and have for future neighbors. Can anyone else share some old wisdom in quotes that might be appropriate to attract intelligent home buyers in our ads and brochures? Some other quotes may also inspire our own thinking and could be helpful in our search for the perfect identity. The back page of this month's Forbes magazine has a good one for our discussion of fees. "Free advice is worth the price"- Robert Half Thank you very much in advance. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 09:12:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA14570 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:12:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA29708 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:10:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05070; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:04:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:00:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA04799 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:00:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mail.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04795 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:00:25 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 1VISa13023; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:05:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <72a0e2f5.34e301b9@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:05:43 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org, reppe@umich.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Fwd: Re: GBlist: lowE/argon filling retrofits for windows Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_887292343_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1945 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_887292343_boundary Content-ID: <0_887292343@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Peter, Any commercial glazier should be able to cut out the glass from an aluminum frame or sash and replace it with any insulated glass unit that you specify. That's what they do every day. There are probably twenty of them in your local yellow pages. Fred --part0_887292343_boundary Content-ID: <0_887292343@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: FUnger@aol.com Return-path: To: reppe@umich.edu Subject: Re: GBlist: lowE/argon filling retrofits for windows Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:55:23 EST Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Peter, Any commercial glazier should be able to cut out the glass and replace it with any insulated glass unit that you specify. That's what they do every day. There are probably twenty of them in your local yellow pages. Fred --part0_887292343_boundary-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 09:26:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA14727 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:26:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA03493 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:24:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05722; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:18:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:14:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05408 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:14:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05402 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:14:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.90] (uc25.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.90]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA01112; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:20:36 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <76a16ef2.34e2ff68@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:26:53 -0500 To: FUnger@aol.com, greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Quotes Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1946 As you know, I'm fond of quotes. Here's a couple that've stood me in good stead. "A man who carries a cat around by the tail, learns lessons that can be learned in no other way". "Nothing needs correcting half so much as my character defects in another" both from Mark Twain and one from me "I thought I learned that" - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 09:47:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15116 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:47:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA08716 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:46:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06930; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:40:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:35:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06394 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:34:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06389 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:34:37 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 1NXEa05791; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:40:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:40:07 EST To: Pbsustain@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: ice storm and alternative energy Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1947 Phil, Please post your note. I agree personally that global warming is a very serious problem. I also know a lot of folks think it is basically bullshit. to paraphrase: "They usually say the ice caps will melt and drown everything. Now some of them think maybe the next ice age will be brought on. I'm supposed to get all panicked about this stuff yet they can't even tell me for sure if it will rain this afternoon" I agree we should be conservative and address the problem. My previous post relates more to the tone of the propoganda rather than whether or not we do should anything. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 10:04:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15349 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:04:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA12724 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:02:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07830; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:51:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07387 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:50:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07376 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:50:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22912 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:56:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:56:29 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Earthtubes To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199802120246.VAA15648@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1948 Earth tubes seem like such a great idea, but the problem, as pointed out, is summer condensation. Earth tubes ARE "widely" used in Northern Europe, but they have muchless humid summers -- this means the potential for summer condensation is less. Even so, it was widely accepted, even when I worked in Germany in '90-91, that summer condneation would occur. But, less not write off earth tubes! What is the solution to this problem, since they have some mnay other nice attributes? One possibility I have seen work in Asia, is the use of a very porous and absorbent material for the tube. Condensation would not occur becuase the liquid was absorbed into the material and stored for a drier day without the surface RH getting above the 80% or so required for mold. I havent found an economical material though (tough to beat PE). Any other solutions? Heat exchanger with an earht tube? Look for brain storming here ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 10:18:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15569 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:18:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA16486 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:17:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08725; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:11:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:06:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08101 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:05:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08092 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:05:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.42 (pm1-10.hoosier.net [206.106.67.42]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA31349; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:11:30 -0500 Message-ID: <34E31111.2634@bloomington.in.us> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:11:13 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth Tubes References: <34E28703.6591@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1949 Chuck Hinckley wrote: > > Is radon an issue here? > > Chuck It sure can be if the tubes aren't hermetucally sealed. Other soil gases and pesticides can also enter poorly sealed tubes. In general, I don't think they're a good idea. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 10:21:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15678 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:21:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA17332 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:20:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09080; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:14:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:09:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08382 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:08:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08351 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:08:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.108]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 4366200 ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:12:20 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980212100741.0069d66c@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:07:41 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: lowE/argon filling retrofits for windows In-Reply-To: <199802120700.CAA25178@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1950 >Has someone on this list ever heard of the possibility to get windows >retrofitted with a LowE coating and/or argon filling ON SITE? >(in our case the windows are double glazed, and the Al frame is in very >good shape) > Try the International Window Film Association at www.iwfa.com ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 10:24:08 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15687 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:24:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA17885 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:22:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09287; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:16:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:11:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08670 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:11:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08657 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:10:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.42 (pm1-10.hoosier.net [206.106.67.42]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA31535; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:16:42 -0500 Message-ID: <34E3124A.6009@bloomington.in.us> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:16:27 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Brennan CC: FUnger@aol.com, greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Quotes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1951 One of my favorites "When you remember we are all mad, the mysteries dissappear and life stands explained." also by mark Twain -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 10:40:36 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16044 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:40:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA22073 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:38:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10001; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:33:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:28:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09642 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:27:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09638 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:27:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-165-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.165]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15739; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:33:37 -0500 Message-ID: <34E31643.29F00669@together.net> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:33:23 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth Tubes/cool tubes problem? References: <2229463@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1952 Comments: Why couldn't the tube condensate be collected at a low point of tube slope, using a drain with a standard P-trap? Then drained to suitable point.? Also, I wonder about the seasonal heat transfer benefits from Summeroperation regarding in long term warming of the surrounding earth mass? Please note that I have zero earth tube experience. Tom Anderson Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > My sense is that earth tubes for make-up ventilation supply air make sense in a > cold climate. The solution to the potential condensation problem is just use > them as an inlet in the heating season months, when the tube innards are well > above the outdoor air dewpoint. Years ago at ASES a fellow from Wisconsin > presented his passive solar underground house, and the make-up air came from > earth tubes, which I think were 3 lengths of 6 inch plastic pipe perhaps 100 > feet long. He had incoming air of about 60F I recall. > > Even if the air can be preheated to above freezing, that would be a benefit in > a home with an energy recovery ventilator, since it would eliminate the > complication and inefficiency of having a defrost cycle. > > Marc > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 10:52:13 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16178 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:52:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA25184 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:50:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10810; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:44:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:40:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10291 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:39:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10281 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:39:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 8819 invoked from network); 12 Feb 1998 15:45:03 -0000 Received: from ao093.du.pipex.com (HELO ) (193.130.254.93) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 12 Feb 1998 15:45:03 -0000 Message-ID: <34E2F00D.76BF@dial.pipex.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:50:21 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Reply-To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Condensing Boiler efficiencies and manufacturers References: <3.0.1.32.19980209151203.006bac54@together.net> <34E233E8.2652F47F@which.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1953 I haven't followed this correspondence in detail, so I hope I'm not replicating... malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: > > 87% is around the efficiency of an old fashioned non condensing boiler. That sounds rather high to me - whatever claims manufacturers may make, I wouldn't count on more than 80%, and in my calcs I generally use 75% for a system efficiency (that's for a central heating system with radiators - um, that's hydronic in American, yes?) [In fact the assessment procedure which comes with the British building regs quotes 72% for a low thermal capacity gas boiler, but doesn't distinguish according to age of boiler.] > This suggests the condensing section is not working unless the water > return temperature is low. This is generally the finding of the British literature. You need a low return water temperature to get the exhaust gases down to a temperature where appreciable condensation can take place. This is achieved in three ways: (i) ensure that water can recirculate if the return temperature is too high, (ii) slightly "oversize" the heat distribution system - here that generally means slightly bigger radiators, maybe by 20%, (iii) don't oversize the boiler. Return water temperature will of course vary with time in any installation. That means that the boiler is sometimes in condensing mode (with very high efficiencies - the quoted figures over 95% for a large installation seem reasonable for condensing conditions if the system is properly designed), and sometimes not (with efficiencies down to say 80%). So, as Malcolm indicates, the key is in the system design as much as the boiler. Figures in the British literature of about 10 years ago suggested that one could expect an average of 83% to 90% for a domestic installation of a condensing boiler, and at least 90% for a properly-designed (larger) commercial installation. I don't have my own copies of this literature (I'm working from memory - so I may be a few % points out) - but I'm sure you would be able to get hold of it from BRECSU, whose url Bion helpfully posted a month or so back (and which I can locate if anyone needs me to). (And if you're really keen, try researching the Dutch literature - condensing boilers were pioneered in the Netherlands in the late 70s / early 80s) Hope this helps. Mark Bigland-Pritchard hyphen@dial.pipex.com Bristol, England ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 10:52:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16183 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:52:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA25226 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:50:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10843; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:44:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:40:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10299 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:39:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10287 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 8870 invoked from network); 12 Feb 1998 15:45:11 -0000 Received: from ao093.du.pipex.com (HELO ) (193.130.254.93) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 12 Feb 1998 15:45:11 -0000 Message-ID: <34E2FF91.37F3@dial.pipex.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:56:33 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Reply-To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FUnger@aol.com CC: ewestbrook@topher.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: ice storm and alternative energy References: <8371d407.34e27d05@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1954 FUnger@aol.com wrote (about global warming predictions): > I wonder if Al Gore & Co. jetting off to Japan in a state of urgent > emergency is a popular, convincing or wise approach to this issue... >From over here, the US government attitude to Kyoto looked absolutely nothing like "urgent emergency". Quite the opposite. It looked like last-minute grudging acceptance that for once the US government had to listen to the rest of the world - and to relevant scientific expertise - and not just to US commercial vested interests. And even _negotiate_ rather than laying down the law. Quite a learning experience for some of them, I guess. > ...when we can't seem to predict the weather more than a day or so in > advance. OK, so climatology is difficult. (and incidentally it's worth noting that there's a difference between climate and "weather") That means we have to _provisionally_ work on the basis of the best predictions we have, not just ignore them all and act as if there's no problem. The core predictions of the mainstream climatologists seem to me to be about as secure as that type of science can be. We have good empirical evidence that CO2 emissions have been increasing for the last couple of centuries but not appreciably before that. We know that this trend corresponds with the industrialisation of Europe and North America. We have reasonable empirical evidence that average global temperatures have also risen over the same period. OK, so the causal links cannot be proved: but they never can. But we do have good knowledge of the variation of the radiative absorptivity of carbon dioxide (and other gases) with wavelength. And we know that the best computer models that can be put together to describe global climate both fit that data and predict further accelerated global warming. Yes, those models are rather coarse (for example (i) local climatic variation can't really be adequately modelled - the whole of Britain plus some bits of continental Europe have to be fitted into one cell in most global circulation models so far; (ii) the issue of the effect of increased cloud cover is as I understand it still not really resolved; (iii) we don't know how bit the CO2 sinks really are or really will be; (iv) the models can't deal very well with sudden "catastrophe"-type effects like, say, what's going to happen to the Gulf stream, or what's El Nino going to do) But that doesn't invalidate the models. It just makes them provisional. But if they bear any resemblance to the truth we have to act _now_. > It's that Chicken Little phenomenon, though I know that isn't a popular > thing to say. I'd rather see us attacking very clear and demonstrable > dangers first. The trouble is, by the time the global warming core predictions are fully "demonstrable", it'll be too late to do anything about them. For that reason, your government, like the rest of the world (except for a few oil-rich emirates), accepted the precautionary principle at Rio. Now it's time to start acting on it. Oh, and in my experience, most people generally find it easier to be ostriches than chicken littles. (Not you personally, Fred (nor anyone on the List in particular) - I don't know you personally - but I wouldn't be surprised if ostrich behaviour was extremely attractive to a lot of your countrymen and -women after they've been exposed to the full might of the US oil industry's propaganda machine on their TV every night. Especially as ostriches have no reason to do anything uncomfortable like giving up their habits of overconsumption.) Mark Bigland-Pritchard hyphen@dial.pipex.com Bristol, England ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 11:00:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16286 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:00:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA27303 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:59:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11374; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:53:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:48:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11051 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:48:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-alterdial.uu.net (smtp-alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11045 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:48:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop-alterdial.uu.net by smtp-alterdial.uu.net with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: pop-alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.27]) id QQeckt16784; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:53:58 GMT Received: from eei.org by pop-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: mail.eei.org [204.254.108.2]) id QQeckt25755; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:53:58 GMT Received: from WPDomain-Message_Server by eei.org with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:54:07 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:53:57 -0500 From: Harvey Sachs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: "Cool Tubes" and IAQ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1955 Chuck Hinckley asks if radon could be an issue. Around 1982, Tom Hernandez, Jim Ring, and I measured radon from grab samples in a basement, and Tom plotted against the rate of change of air pressure outside. Although the data set was smaller than one wants (this is always the case), it was clear that depressurizing the house relative to the ground (times when air pressure was falling) increased the radon concentration as much as 10-fold. The "Cool Tube" won't work unless its air pressure is less than that in the house. I believe it will almost always be lower pressure than the surrounding ground. Thus, it is most likely to do a splendid job of vacuum-extracting radon (which has only a 3.8 day half life) from the surrounding ground. Indeed, it might even do a much better job than the poorly-sealed sub-slab duct system that distributed air in a house I worked on in the early 1980s. In that one, we calculated that the ducts (spiral sheet metal) were probably about as efficient a radon extraction system as we could have engineered, given source strength estimates we made! Added to the condensate problems, which should strongly discourage this use in summer for cooling, it seems that "cool tubes" should be listed as something with vastly more downside risk than upside gain. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 11:11:17 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16428 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:11:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA00392 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:09:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12037; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:03:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:58:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11531 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:58:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11521 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:58:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.90] (pa-ppp05.hevanet.com [204.119.60.90]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA16581 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:03:51 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802121603.IAA16581@hevanet.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:09:24 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: obrien@hevanet.com (Michael O'Brien) Subject: Re: GBlist: ice storm and alternative energy Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1956 Hi, Fred-- One short-range phenomenon that was predicted as a result of global warming is more frequent and stronger storms as the oceans and atmosphere process added heat energy. Would your skeptical friends doubt that the past decade has lived up to predictions? Best, Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 11:13:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16505 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:13:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA01011 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:11:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12296; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:05:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:01:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA11714 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11704 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:00:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (sasc6-41.flash.net [209.30.91.41]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA07662 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:06:24 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34E32046.53871758@flash.net> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:16:07 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Orientation Issue ( L.Stivers version)] References: <34DB6476.98095EEA@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1957 John Wilson wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Orientation Issue ( B.Howard version) > Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 12:21:18 -0700 > From: John Wilson > Organization: BrainStorm > To: "C. Dodge" > References: <199802061752.MAA02611@amsterdam.interport.net> > > Clarence wrote: > ...>>If you are using a corrected compass<< then that south is already 16 > deg to the east of true south due to deviation correction and if one adds > 15 deg to that (corrected) south then we're up to the 31 deg off the > original uncorrected true south. Looks to me like a simple thing is getting really complicated. At this point I'd be tempted to toss out the compass. Try this "simple" approach: 1. Go to your site around noon. 2. At high noon (sun at zenith), poke a straight stick straight into the ground. 3. Poke another stick into the ground at the end of the first stick's shadow. 4. Sight along the two sticks to "true south". Now, in pursuit of "minute-of-arc" perfection, you can put a big piece of cardboard on the ground to poke the sticks through, use a level to get the main stick straight, check local sunrise/sunset times to be sure that noon is really "high noon" or mid-day, mark true south with a third stick, draw perpendicular lines on your cardboard along N-S and E-W axes, and carefully measure 15 degrees to the east of true south. Good luck, and I hope there's nothing really butt-ugly at your 165- degree point. Low-tech Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 11:24:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16706 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:24:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04222 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:23:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13184; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:17:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:12:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12646 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:12:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12636 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:12:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.90] (pa-ppp05.hevanet.com [204.119.60.90]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA18269 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:17:53 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802121617.IAA18269@hevanet.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:23:26 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: obrien@hevanet.com (Michael O'Brien) Subject: GBlist: Name Game Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1958 Hi, All-- It seems that we are uncomfortable with the names suggested so far. But it's up to us; we're a core community of green designers and builders. So put those thinking caps on--no pain, no gaian! The term "green" building really turns off mainstream builders around here. I get the impression they perceive it as an accusation that they weren't really putting the right qualities into their houses, when they see themselves as very responsive to the market. I try to remind them that building with big plants like fir isn't really that different from little plants like straw (that's usually when they throw me out of the meeting). The term "feng shui" has caught on quickly here--seems to have the right mix of exotic new age appeal and cultural history. Perhaps we need something with more cachet? Best, Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 11:46:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17116 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:46:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA10824 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:45:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14079; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:39:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:35:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13764 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:34:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13752 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:34:08 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 3394 invoked by uid 0); 12 Feb 1998 16:40:21 -0000 Received: from ppp-8.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.201?) (198.175.11.201) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 12 Feb 1998 16:40:21 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:39:06 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Strange odors... (IAQ) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1959 Travis, Whatever expertise I have in IAQ comes from being a chemically sensitized person. An obvious comment about the odor is that if it smells like a bandaid then it may be caused by the same chemicals found in the bandaid. The plastic kind are probably PVC (vinyl) and the glues ... who knows, but glues could be the main source of smell. Many building materials (wallpaper comes immediately to mind) are made with PVC with added plasticizers to make them flexible; as opposed to the PVC in things like pipes that have other additives. Pthalates are a common PVC plasticizer and can make up very large percentages of plastics. Call up a bandaid manufacturer and find out what chemicals are in them and see if they know which of them produces the odor. You might want to tell them your situation so they aren't worried you are trying to implicate their bandaids. So, some possible culprits. Wallpaper and its glue. Carpet and its glue. Air from rooms with these materials even if they are far removed from where people experience the odors. Most modern buildings recirculate and mix air from throughout the building. I find this to be a big problem when trying to isolate IAQ problems. For example, if there is a laboratory in the building, the lab air might actually be getting to other parts of the building. Good luck. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 12:01:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17294 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:01:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA14844 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:59:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14845; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:53:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:49:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14400 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:48:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14396 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:48:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (se14.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.47]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA10269 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:54:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34E32838.B7D@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:50:00 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Passive Solar Orientation Issue Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1960 Larry wrote: 4. Sight along the two sticks to "true south". Truly elegant for it's simplicity and perfect clarification. I think we sometimes get so caught up in the sound of our own words that we forget we're actually trying to communicate some information to someone else. That is aimed at no one in particular and is meant simply as a reminder to each of us that our stated purpose is to communicate, not proselytize. Thanks Larry. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 12:02:13 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17312 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA15213 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14935; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:54:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:50:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14426 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:49:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14416 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:49:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA10388; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:54:53 -0800 Message-ID: <34E32884.75B886ED@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:51:17 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Earthtubes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1961 It seems to me that we simply do not know enough the potential for contamination of air (or the processes by which air can be contaminated) in such a system and if we grow dependent upon such a system for supply we will be continually making 'improvements' and adding safety bumpers as we encounter problems - similar to issues of water supply and contamination - we just don't know all the health issues but I can imagine the potential for some. I think more work needs to be done in areas of heat exchange that have broad cross applicability. Actually the materials and products are to some extent there but restricted to more industrial and commercial custom applications. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. John Straube wrote: > One possibility I have seen work in Asia, is the use of a very porous and > absorbent material for the tube. Condensation would not occur becuase > the liquid was absorbed into the material and stored for a drier day > without the surface RH getting above the 80% or so required for mold. I > havent found an economical material though (tough to beat PE). > > Any other solutions? Heat exchanger with an earht tube? Look for > brain storming here > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube > Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group > University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg > Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 > UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 > Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 > x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 12:09:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17473 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:09:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA17107 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:07:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15401; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:01:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:57:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA15019 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:56:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from saclink3.csus.edu (saclink3.csus.edu [130.86.82.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15015 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 11:56:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802121656.LAA15015@solstice.crest.org> Received: from PC-ANTHRO-04.mnh.csus.edu by saclink3.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA003882942; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:02:22 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "PE" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:38:01 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: ice storm and alternative energy Reply-To: sac28787@saclink.csus.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1962 FUnger wrote... >Elena Westbrook asked: < warming could actually trigger an new ice age? Supposedly the global warming > would change ocean currents that currently keep the north Atlantic > landmasses relatively temperate.>> > > I read that and couldn't help feeling even more skeptical about presumed > solutions to a problem few people seem to have a good handle on. >.....>we can't seem to predict the > weather more than a day or so in advance. >......>. I'd rather see us attacking very clear and demonstrable dangers first. > Look at the risks of nuclear power by-products, cigarettes, toxins we dump > into the air and water in huge quanities. It seems it should be easier to > build some sort of working concencus when the facts are in and basically > unarguable. By the time a 'working consensus' of nonspecialists in the relevant fields is achieved, all your noses will long have been rubbed in the facts. Fact 1: Global Warming aka Climate Disruption aka High-Energy Climatic Events have at root a well-documented rise in CO2 levels in Hawaii that have long exceeded the highest levels in 160,000 years of entrapped air in glaciers. Greenhouse Effect from high CO2 has been known and understood for 150 years or more. Fact 2: ALL repeat ALL attempts at modeling the future, as crude as such attempts always are, forecast trouble. The more detailed forecasts I've seen produce the worse forecasts. Fact 3: All forecasts stop at some date like 2050. The causes now continuing to raise CO2 and other gases will not stop then, nor will science become more cocksure; therefore talk will continue in step with decorative 'solutions.' Once again, all plans are faulty without provision for failure. The human race is not known for its foresight. Pet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 12:48:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA18717 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:48:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA28825 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:46:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17090; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:40:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:36:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16661 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:35:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16654 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:35:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.125] (pm1a11.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.141]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20928; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:40:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:40:47 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802121617.IAA18269@hevanet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: obrien@hevanet.com (Michael O'Brien) From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1963 I've followed this thread with interest. Nadav Malin and I spent many hours debating what we should call EBN back in 1992 when we launched it. We decided on "Environmental Building News" over "Green Building News" or something like that, because we felt that "green" would not be as accepted in the mainstream building industry that we were (and are) hoping to reach with our mesage. So far I think the name has worked okay for us, though I don't think we've reached very far into the mainstream design and construction communities. We're still trying! With each message that comes in on this thread, I open it with hope that here will be the solution--a concise, clear handle that conveys what we do. So far, I haven't seen it. But I'll keep opening those messages expectantly.... What do GBlisters think of the name "Environmental Building News"? Why do you think we've been unsuccessful in attracting more of the mainstream industry in as subscribers. Nadav and I would very much appreciate hearing your thoughts and suggestions. Alex Wilson, Editor and Publisher Environmental Building News Brattleboro, Vermont ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 13:11:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA19076 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:11:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06006 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:10:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18252; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:04:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:59:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17893 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:59:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.165]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17885 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:59:02 -0500 (EST) From: Marcoplos@aol.com Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 9TTFa10695; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:04:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <96a6da01.34e339b9@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:04:39 EST To: alex@ebuild.com, obrien@hevanet.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1964 I think the most that be expected from a name is that it doesn't in any way contradict the content it represents or mislead anyone. It's just a sign to be understood by those looking to find that content. And that's the key - people have to be looking for certain info. There is so much information pollution around that it means someone has to put on their bullshit filter before they even begin to make headway in figuring out what pro-active steps to take. I think "environmental building" is a great phrase because it is plain language and it's an accurate sign that doesn't confuse those searching for such information. There's just no magic phrase to seduce people with - at least not for long unless they are committed to learning about the stuff. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 13:30:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA19636 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:30:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA11996 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:29:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19587; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:23:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:19:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19134 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:18:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19130 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:18:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA05915 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:24:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-11.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.139) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma005888; Thu Feb 12 12:23:44 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980212132250.006f1cd8@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 13:22:52 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Earth Tubes / Piping Heat Loss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1965 Earth Tubes / Piping Heat Loss Sacie -- some considerations: (...I'm baaaack) General -- In your climate any fresh air inducted to a building via an "earth tube" (evocative of a worm farm, or something...) needs to be carefully managed and thought out to avoid -- excess moisture, mold spores and matting in "tube", and possible liquid water getting in to building. Likely cooling (de humid of inlet air) will dominate, rather than heating. In Montana I would be more likely to build a back pass solar wall panel (exterior) for inlet air. 1. Vital -- SLOPE Earth Tube Array TO DRAIN to daylight !!! Cooling effect will actually be de-humidification, since the heat of condensation at the dT between the inlet air and the earth-tempered surface of the tubes is the driver. Therefore, you need to be able to get rid of condensate. Heating effect will be minor, unless you accentuate the ventilation air exchange of the house (robbing Peter to pay Paul). The damper system could connect the earth tube inlet air to the return side of your HVAC air handler, if you used a balanced ventilation approach such as described in the EEBA _Builder Guide_ (1997, Joe Lstiburek). In that case the earth tube inlet should likely have a flapper damper (remember the old vented Trombe' walls?) so under certain conditions conditioned air would not "back out" of the home. 2. durable pest screen inlet (1/8in galv. hardware cloth), install well sealing damper and filter at the (other) end of the tube entering the building, and if affordable monitor the humidity inside building -- be able to close tube system if indoor RH exceeds 55% to 60% (Radio Shack FYI has - had - fairly accurate Hygro-thermal digital devices for ~$30 that we use several of in building diagnostics) 3. use non corrugated metal pipe (corrugations could allow for pooling of condensate water in tube and do not increase heat exchange area enough to warrant potential problems), or sched. 20 PVC _smooth_ pipe. (neither option is "low" in embodied energy or enviro impact...) 4. for actual cooling effect, you will need to induce a draft in the system, so think about installing some motorized, screened skylights in the highest level of the home. With most other windows and doors closed this can boost air flow via tube array. Piping heat transfer -- Any system whether insulated or not is subject to the laws of physics and therefore, heat transfer. The key factors are the temp. of the fluid in the pipe, the conductance of the insulation, the diameter of pipe, the conductance of the piping material, the type of pipe (interior surface roughness), the flow rate of the fluid in the pipe, the ambient temperature at surface of insulation, and the ambient temperature gradient (heat sink) away from the pipe. What a mess, huh? Mix together in proper heat transfer equation (see ASHRAE systems handbook...) and you will have the answer -- if the water is 65 deg F and the soil is 54 deg F, with two inches of foam piping insulation (presuming it is not saturated with moisture) you will have considerably less heat loss than if you were running 145 deg F water; in that case the heat loss would modify the surrounding temperature profile in the earth making it a harder problem... .: then why insulate the earth tube if you wish it to seasonally temper inlet air, or water? Hopefully this is of interest, use since now it is time to get back to the routine here... ------------------------------------ you wrote --------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:14:14 -0600 From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Earth Tubes Earth tubes--just exactly what are these? In the Jan/Feb issue of "This Old House" I note a pipe 'swaddled in a jacket of foam insulation 2" thick' with the claim that the heat loss of water carried through this tube, buried 5 ft and 120 ft long, is virtually nil. Wouldn't anything buried 5 feet with higher frost depth loose a lot less heat? In the picture of this tube it looks like it the foam is encased in non-perf. drain tile. I would be interested in comments on this and sources for the product. And is this an earth tube, or is that term simply generic? Thanks Sacie Lambertson ((snip other stuff...) | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 14:23:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA20720 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:23:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA27612 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:21:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22752; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:15:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:11:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22049 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:11:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22045 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:11:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OAP00176; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:15:45 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:15:53 -0800 Subject: GBlist: sliding doors Message-ID: <19980212.141556.14326.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-4,6,8-9,11-14,16-20 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1966 Hi Chris and Terry, Many thanks to both. I checked out Schlegel. They thought that Therma Lum is probably out of business and referred me to their local rep. Local rep said they do not have those exact gaskets but will check around to see what can be retrofitted. Both the people in NY and the local rep were very nice and helpful. Many thanks to both "gurus" (even if Chris feels uncomfortable being a guru). To General List, Suggestions for name of movement - Sustainable Life Design or Life Harmony. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 14:24:24 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA20745 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:24:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA27897 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:22:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22912; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:16:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:12:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22191 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:12:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22180 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:12:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OAO00176; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:15:45 EST To: travwest@infohwy.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:41:25 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Strange odors... (IAQ) Message-ID: <19980212.141556.14326.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199802112300.RAA14428@infohwy.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,7-12 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1967 Hi, While looking for the source of the "new bandage" odor, be sure not to overlook such items as vinyl flooring/wallcovering. Check window treatments - are they using PVC blinds? Also, often overlooked, what is the cleaning crew using to maintain the building? Many cleaning chemicals can be quite obnoxious. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 14:38:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA21132 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:38:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA02357 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:36:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24276; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:30:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:26:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23867 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:26:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from AICS.NET (mail.aics.net [209.21.198.2] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23862 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:26:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.21.198.44] ([209.21.198.40]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 2143800 ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:37:32 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 14:40:00 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: More on Name Game Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1968 Too often, the term "environmental" is used when "ecological" is more apt; ecological encompasses both the living and non-living systems, and suggests an approach. The current buzzword is "sustainable"--few know what that is either, however, it's an important concept, better than "green," which is a little simplistic (altho' more readily understood). The term "sustainable" has been adopted by the UN, AIA, etc. How about Ecological Building News or Sustainable Building News? No, don't expect the "mainstream" to come knocking--until you call it News about How to Save Money and Public Health through Ecological Building. Carol Steinfeld SustainabilityWorks ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 15:32:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22151 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA20180 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:31:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26873; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:25:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:20:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26522 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:20:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26518 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:20:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA26682; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:25:54 -0800 Message-ID: <34E35A00.6B2C6268@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:22:25 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com, "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: ice storm and alternative energy References: <8371d407.34e27d05@aol.com> <34E2FF91.37F3@dial.pipex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1969 Excellent comments, thank you. I consistently find your responses more informed, less prone to crude generalizations, more reasoned and more balanced than anything on this side of the pond. (I know this is a crude generalization but thats what I mean). Would you attribute some of this to slightly less aggressive models for consumption (or propaganda machines) John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 17:01:45 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA23526 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:01:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA18151 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:00:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00700; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:54:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:49:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00335 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:49:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00331 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:49:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.39] (ua27.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.60]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA29996; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:55:26 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:01:18 -0500 To: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies), greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: More on Name Game Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1970 Hi Carol, Your post really triggered stuff in me. Thank you. I liked the things you wrote a lot and looked inward to see what they were triggering. >Too often, the term "environmental" is used when "ecological" is more apt; >ecological encompasses both the living and non-living systems, and suggests >an approach. I think of the environment as me and everything else. Environmentalism I think of as a political movement rooted in reaction to the vast changes human beings have triggered - intentionally or accidentally - in the environment. To me ecology is a fundamental science. I first learned ecological principles as a part of biology. I recall Aldo Leopold writing that it is horrible to learn ecological principles because once you see a devastated landscape, where others see a beautiful grassland, you are never the same. I couldn't tolerate being in New York City for a ten year period because it was painful for me to see a population so unaware of what it costs to provide their drinking water, food, power and waste disposal. On the other hand, if a beaver floods 2 acres of real estate, get the DEC in to trap the rodent, or as likely, "Where's the 12 gauge, Martha". Or even less obtrusive, let a swarm of honeybees nest in the eaves and nothing will do but to kill them. On any number of occasisons I've arrived too late and found only poisoned or burned tawny bodies and a homeowner still recovering from terror. >The current buzzword is "sustainable"--few know what that is either, >however, it's an important concept, better than "green," which is a little >simplistic (altho' more readily understood). The term "sustainable" has >been adopted by the UN, AIA, etc. For me sustainable means we can keep doing it for as long as we want people to be around. For soemthing to be sustainable, I try to think in terms of millenia. I have read UN, AIA and EPA documents about sustainability and believe they have missed an important variable in Garrett Hardin's third law of human ecology: the impact a population has on the environment is qualitatively a product of the population size, the consumption of material and energy per person and the damage done extracting, refining, processing, distributing, using and disposing of the material and energy consumed per person. Most of the writings I've seen on sustainability at an institutional level focus primarily on the damage done, secondarily on per capita consumption and, in my experience, make only vague, often contradicted references to population size and growth rate. I can't make the phrase "sustainable growth" make any sense whatsoever. I offer this evidence. While I went about my business today, 35,000 to 40,000 people died mal-nutrition related deaths. For them, the way things are was not sustainable today. Not some distant generations to come. >How about Ecological Building News or Sustainable Building News? No, don't >expect the "mainstream" to come knocking--until you call it News about How >to Save Money and Public Health through Ecological Building. Can you get this into a couple of words? >Carol Steinfeld >SustainabilityWorks ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 17:31:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24950 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:31:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA26406 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:29:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA02091; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:23:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:19:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA01732 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:19:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.rapidramp.net (mail.incredibyte.net [207.99.72.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01726 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:19:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802122219.RAA01726@solstice.crest.org> Received: from default [207.99.73.106] by mail.rapidramp.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.02) id A85D2E9014C; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:31:57 EST Reply-To: From: "Office of Sustainable Design & Construction" To: Subject: GBlist: Green day care center Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:33:43 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1971 Hello, I'm new to this list; I'm with the New York City Department of Design and Construction (DDC). I am looking into 'healthy' furnishings for day care centers; that is, low-emitting materials and furniture, and also, furnishings which will not aggravate asthmatic children. I have already talked to Terry Brennan and other experts, but any further info. would be appreciated. I assume things like PVC plastic in furniture for children should be avoided. Also to add to the name game, we term our green buildings 'high performance' buildings. Thank you, Jennifer S. NYC DDC Office of Sustainable Design & Construction ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 17:50:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA25545 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:50:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA03092 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:48:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03164; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:42:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:38:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA02822 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:38:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA02817 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:38:19 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 1VKTa06011 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:44:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9c601e1e.34e37b36@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:44:04 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Earth Tubes Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1972 John's idea of a heat exchanger tied to earth tubes is intriuing. We've been tying our footing drains (inside and out) to a through the roof soil gas vent and draining to grade. It would seem that the same piping could be run through some sort of heat exchanger and serve the purpose of soil gas extraction, foundation drain and "earth tube" preheat for fresh air if coupled with a heat exchanger. By tying to under slab drains, the soil would be warmer than ambiant soil temperatures due to the house above and may make it possible to use less piping for the preheat. The sizes or costs probably make this impractical or the more technical and innovative among us would have been doing this long ago. How far from a practical solution is this? Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 17:55:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA25594 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:55:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA04628 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:54:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03490; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:48:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:44:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA03208 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:43:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03204 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:43:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.7] (iplink7.crocker.com [205.246.4.7]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA21585 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:51:06 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:54:20 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: Re: GBlist: name game Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1973 >From Fred ... >Too bad "Smart House" got taken and used for a stupid concept. I think that "Wise" is better than "Smart" Smart ...( as in S..arse) implies a short half-life Wisdom sems like what we ought to be valuing. Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 18:45:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA26553 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:45:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA19891 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:43:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05710; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:37:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:31:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05245 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:31:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05235 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:31:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.101.62]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA7306 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:35:43 +0000 Message-ID: <34E38660.F97B7D5F@which.net> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 23:31:45 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <96a6da01.34e339b9@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1974 When I focused in on a local newspaper article praising a local house builder for winning awards for his environmental home building, I found that they had landscaped the area and saved a few trees, and that's all. So environmental means landscaped. During the emergence of the green parties in Europe, there was a lot of anti-green propaganda. My feeling is that this still sticks. On the other hand politicians, who would never want to be associated with a discredited word and who are the only ones who can make a large scale difference, love to discover and use new words. A new word they are just beginning and enjoying to use is sustainable. Malcolm Scott Marcoplos@aol.com wrote: > I think "environmental building" is a great phrase because it is plain > > language and it's an accurate sign that doesn't confuse those > searching for > such information. There's just no magic phrase to seduce people with - > at > least not for long unless they are committed to learning about the > stuff. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 20:24:32 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA28675 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:24:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA17867 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:22:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA09128; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:16:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:10:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA08812 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:10:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA08808 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:10:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.30] (blf30.acadia.net [205.217.217.30]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA04409 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:16:19 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:14:16 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Name Game Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1975 Alex, To attract the mainstream, call it Money, Sex and Power Building News. - David ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 20:34:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA28918 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:34:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA20875 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:33:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA09588; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:27:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:21:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA09265 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:20:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA09258 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:20:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.30] (blf30.acadia.net [205.217.217.30]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA05095 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:26:35 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:24:31 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: ice storm/climate and "sustainable" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1976 Dear Gang, Several times recently, I've read comments about global climate change from folks with good points to make, but lacking in some of the scientific basics. This isn't surprising, as it's hard, especially in the U.S., to find well-documented, reasoned information about what is and isn't known. For those who missed it the first time, I'll refer those of you with questions to my brother Jonathan Foley. He is one of the leading global climate modelers in the world, and just accepted an award from Clinton and Gore for his work. He is scientific and honest, and isn't in anybody's back pocket. You can reach him at the following email address: jfoley@facstaff.wisc.edu Those of you near Madison, Wisconsin, can contact him through the Meterology Department at the University of Wisconsin - Madison. I've spoken with him about this, and he'd be glad to answer questions - he considers this part of his job. Hope this helps. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 20:45:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA29000 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:45:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA23734 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:44:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA10086; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:38:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:32:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA09761 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:32:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA09757 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:31:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.30] (blf30.acadia.net [205.217.217.30]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA05898 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:37:44 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:35:40 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: "sustainable" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1977 Forgot the other part of the last message. One reason why the word "sustainable" is in vogue right now is because it sounds wonderful, everybody's for it, but nobody knows what it means. In Germany, they don't have such a word, so they've fallen back on "Nachaltigeit" - which means, essentially, "Pasteurized." Milk that has been boiled so it doesn't spoil is "nachaltig." One reason why the language of sustainability is so difficult is that until very recently in history, we haven't had to think about it. We're in the 29th day now (you know, the parable about the lily pad, etc.), and for 28 days we didn't pay attention. Personally, I'm wary of putting energy into naming things and deceiving myself into believing that's an accomplishment. It IS important to change conciousness, and to communicate... Martin Luther King said "I have a Dream" and people's thoughts changed. But the real miracle of his leadership was that ordinary people got up, went downtown, past the sheriff's deputies and the German Shepards, and risked their lives to register to vote. For me, a paradigm isn't changed until one has the power to claim it through one's actions. So by all means, let's name away - but then let's get back to work. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 20:51:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA29084 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:51:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA25337 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:50:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA10461; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:44:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:38:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10075 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:37:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10067 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:37:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust215.tnt6.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.17.215]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA18866 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:43:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E3A564.795C@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:44:04 -0800 From: David Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Quotes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1978 One of my favorites, from Ramakrishna, a mystic from the Calcutta area 100 years ago. This is paraphrased from his biography: Student: "Master, if the Divine is all-loving, all-compassionate, all-good, then why is there suffering, sickness, war and hatred in the world?" Ramakrishna: "It thickens the plot." Seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 21:26:04 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29485 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:26:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA04469 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:24:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA11742; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:18:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:12:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA11397 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:12:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11389 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:12:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from odessey.ampsc.com (odessey.ampsc.com [207.102.161.153]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA31883 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:25:37 -0800 Message-ID: <34E3AD11.3294@ampsc.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:16:49 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: "sustainable"] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------50DC591D7EBC" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1979 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------50DC591D7EBC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think many prefer how to accomplish a sustaining living planet, that is what interests me in my life. Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Real Estate Development Contract Management * Financial Analysis Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6 Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250)475 6698 --------------50DC591D7EBC Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <34E3AAA9.6609@ampsc.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:06:33 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" Subject: Re: GBlist: "sustainable" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone, I do not send this note to slight any contributions to the list. I do send this note to inform all of you of my displeasure at reading the notes trying to define or redefine the term "sustainable". I find them to be annoying, an adjective taken from the verb "annoy" as in my Funk & Wagnalls' definition: "to bother;irritate." That same Funk & Wagnalls defines "sustainable" as the adjective taken from the verb "sustain", and defined as: "1. To keep from sinking or falling:uphold;support. 2. To endure without yielding'withstand. 3. To undergo or suffer, as loss or injury. 4. To keep up the courage, resolution, or spirits of;comfort. 5. To keep up or maintain;keep in effect or being. 6. to maintain by providing with food, drink, etc. 7. To uphold or support as being true or just. 8. To corroborate;confirm." I believe that defines the attempts of this list and other environmentally conscientious individuals and organizations, to understand what the importance of a healthy and safe environment is. I suggest that a two word description of the topic of sustaining our envrionment becomes 'Enduring Planet'. "Enduring" is defined as: "1. Lasting/permanent. 2. Long-suffering." with the aim to become successful in deserving the re-defining of our results to 'Living Planet' "Living " is defined as: verb "1. Alive;animate;not dead. 2. Of our characteristic of everyday life;living conditions." noun "1. The state of one who or that which lives. 2. Those that are alive"precededby THE. 3. Manner or conduct of life:virtous LIVING. 4. Means of supporting existence;livelihood." The meanings are quite clear, the appropriate applications seems to be what confuses many. Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Real Estate Development Contract Management * Financial Analysis Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6 Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250)475 6698 --------------50DC591D7EBC-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 21:45:32 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29810 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:45:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA09618 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:43:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12410; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:37:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:33:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12143 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:33:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12135 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:32:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.38.252.168] (ts10port40.port.net [207.38.252.168]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA08499 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:38:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802130238.VAA08499@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Orientation Issue ( L.Stivers version)] Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 21:39:33 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1980 Low-Tech Larry wrote: > Looks to me like a simple thing is getting really complicated. Thanks for your excellent suggestion. I agree with Chuck H........ elegant indeed! I'll be using it... Also thanks to everyone else who got involved with this orientation thread....... very thorough coverage of the topic.... In light of the compensation for information thread, my construction dollars are in the pipeline as I'm sure are those of others who are lurking on this list and are deciding to build greener and greener ( or whatever name) as issues become clearer ( to us) and enthusiasms build thru the easy exchange of information and ideas which this list (and the internet in general) is so successfully accomplishing. I would think this kind of dissimination (sp) of basic information and principles to be crucial to the long term success of any endeavor, especially one which has to first overcome prevailing market stereotypes. Clarence Dodge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 12 21:59:05 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29911 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:59:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA13297 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:57:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA13023; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:51:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:46:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12684 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:46:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12676 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:46:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA13537; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:51:38 -0800 Message-ID: <34E3B466.97F5746B@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 18:48:06 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: "sustainable" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1981 David M. Foley wrote: > One reason why the language of sustainability is so difficult is that until > very recently in history, we haven't had to think about it. We're in the > 29th day now (you know, the parable about the lily pad, etc.), and for 28 > days we didn't pay attention. > > Personally, I'm wary of putting energy into naming things and deceiving > myself into believing that's an accomplishment. I have to agree with this but have experienced frustration in trying to communicate aims and objectives without some readily identifiable departure points (words) Two phrases I find myself using more and more frequently are 'appropriate solutions' and 'appropriate living' borrowed from the term appropriate technology they are a reference to that work and to a long tradition of making reasoned and reasonable decisions. They are useful for my situation. The root of the word is not ideal and in fact may be much of the source of the problem but they imply taking responsibility and direction and since my practice is principally about applying technology and solutions they seem appropriate. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 01:09:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA02340 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:09:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA04326 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:07:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA18623; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:01:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:56:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA18311 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:56:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA18303 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 00:56:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip21.ivnet.net [206.101.73.181]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA05812; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:02:55 -0800 Message-ID: <34E3E109.980BF4BA@ivnet.net> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:58:35 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Reppe CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: lowE/argon filling retrofits for windows References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1982 Peter, There's no reason you couldn't remove the glass from your old window and replace it with better glass. This would would cut the heat loss through the glass. It would cost as much as a new window, probably. Worse, your Aluminum frames, even if they are the (much rarer) themal break type, are conducting heat to the outside faster than your glass is anyhow. Seems better to me to recycle the frames. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Peter Reppe wrote: > Hi-- > Has someone on this list ever heard of the possibility to get windows > retrofitted with a LowE coating and/or argon filling ON SITE? > (in our case the windows are double glazed, and the Al frame is in very > good shape) > > Thanks, > Peter ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 01:14:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA02379 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:14:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA05525 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:13:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA18910; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:07:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:02:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA18674 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:02:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA18665 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 01:02:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip21.ivnet.net [206.101.73.181]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA05875; Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:09:12 -0800 Message-ID: <34E3E284.762BF6E3@ivnet.net> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 22:04:53 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Twila A Ard CC: healthy@bloomington.in.us, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth Tubes/cool tubes problem? References: <1.5.4.32.19980211191414.006d54e0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> <34E22BEC.3389@bloomington.in.us> <19980211.212201.8183.0.strawboss94@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1983 Twila, Hydrogen peroxide should have a pretty good sterilizing effect, with less environmental consequences. Bruce Donelson Twila A Ard wrote: > She also said every now and then > you throw a cup of Clorox in but you NEVER stirred. Would it help to > throw a cup of clorox down a cool tube occasionally? > > ___________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 04:13:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA04170 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:13:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id EAA09318 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:12:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA22987; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:06:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:01:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA22754 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:00:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA22749 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:00:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA05933 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 04:06:26 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199802121617.IAA18269@hevanet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 03:51:50 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: Passive Solar Orientation Issue: getting sunrise/transit/sunset info Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1984 98.02.13 0347est For those who seek such info for solar orientation purposes, and the newsp is not an option (or not exact enough on its weather page due to diff location from you), let the US Navy help you: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA/data/ will give you the means to determine that "sun transit time" (high noon) that you need to determine true South/North, for any day & most locations. Interpolate if your location is not exactly covered. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 07:38:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA06077 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA12428 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:37:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA26026; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:31:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:26:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA25583 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:25:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA25576 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:25:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA04153 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:31:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:31:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from asy10.vineyard.net(199.232.92.50) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id smaa04141; Fri Feb 13 07:31:23 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Quotes Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1985 Don't get me goin' - I'm fond of quotes too. I've enjoyed yours. Here, a few favorites of mine: "The first rule of intelligent tinkering is to save all the parts." - Paul Ehrlich "You can count the seeds in an apple, but you can't count the apples in a seed." - Ken Kesey "The problem with the rat race is that even if you win, you're still a rat." - Lily Tomlin " A good health care plan? Cotton swabs soaked in whiskey. You supply both." - Newt Gingrich "One should keep old roads and old friends. " - German proverb "Computers are useless. They only give answers." - Pablo Picasso "The truth is in its use." - Spiro Kostoff, about architecture. "Just being an architect is an act of social responsibility." - Frank Gehry " Bullshit." - John Clark " We don't have any art, we do everything as well as we can." - Balinese saying. "In a world where the only constant is change, we are either hostages or pathfinders." - James Cramer "That's my Dad. He's demented." - my daughter Sophie, at the age of 10. And this one, source unknown, which may be a comment about our mainstreaming discussion: "Never try to teach a pig to sing. You'll waste time and you'll annoy the pig." John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 07:38:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA06076 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA12427 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:37:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA26024; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:31:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:26:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA25584 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:25:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA25575 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:25:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA04152 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:31:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:31:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from asy10.vineyard.net(199.232.92.50) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma004141; Fri Feb 13 07:31:18 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Name Game Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1986 Bruce C. said: >I think that "Wise" is better than "Smart" >Smart ...( as in S..arse) implies a short half-life >Wisdom sems like what we ought to be valuing. Unfortunately, wisdom has been appropriated too, by the "Wise Use" bums. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 07:55:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA06200 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:55:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA15597 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:54:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA26578; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:48:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:43:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA26288 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:43:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mail.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.156]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA26283 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:43:17 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 9LOEa16670; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:47:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <85703b5d.34e44101@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:47:59 EST To: alex@ebuild.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1987 In a message dated 98-02-12 12:43:49 EST, you write: << What do GBlisters think of the name "Environmental Building News"? Why do you think we've been unsuccessful in attracting more of the mainstream industry in as subscribers. >> I think EBN is a good name but I also like the recent post that mentioned 'high performance'. Rather than change the name, I suggest playing with a slogan or tag line that would indicate high performance, cutting edge, leadership, cost effectiveness. Regarding the marketing of the newsletter and 'breaking into the mainstream', I think there's a language and communication, a style if you will, that has developed in the building community that is not reflected in EBN. The push to your readers is not necessarily labor saving and cost cutting. I suspect you have more readership in the design community than the building community. I also suspect that the name, while accurate, has not been immediately welcomed in the building community. On the other hand, I don't know how you've marketed to the building community. You have developed a 'niche' market and solid reputation among those who have an interest in the subject matter. I think the general building community is interested in what will save them money and time and I don't know if they spend any dollars towards magazines or newsletters anyway. Most of change in the general community seems to come about through word of mouth and trade shows. I don't mean to be down on the general contractors, just noticing how that world has evolved. I also think if you can hang in there, you'll have major circulation within the next 10 years :)) Phil Bailey SustainAbility Fredericksburg, Va. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 08:45:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA06830 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:45:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA25501 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:43:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA27696; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:37:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:33:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA27425 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:32:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA27420 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:32:35 -0500 (EST) From: Gaiaspiral@aol.com Received: from Gaiaspiral@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4HFGa25482 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:38:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1a4f7a34.34e44cc9@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:38:15 EST To: Greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Name Game Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1988 What about "Sustainable Living"? I think mass conciousness is shifting to sustainable living becuase we are understanding our connection to all living things. We are building to live in a harmonious way with all life. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 09:27:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07326 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:27:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA05574 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:25:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29206; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:19:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:14:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28899 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:14:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28895 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:14:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01807 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:19:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:19:55 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Earth tubes To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199802121819.NAA19151@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1989 I am not sure what all the rucuss is about about, but I assumed: 1) liquid condensate in an earth tube is a probelm, you cant just drain it away, if the RH is consistently high, mould can grow. Therefore, it is not what we dont know, we know that air at less than about 80%RH is safe and does not support mould growth (and is reasoably hostile to viruses and bacteria). 2) of course the earth tube is airtight. 3) of ocurse the basement or slab on grade is built airtight -- this is not an earth tube issue, it should always be built this way (or as tight as we can get it) 4) ventilation flow is likely tobe driven by stack effect in both winter and summer, therefore why do we need the flaps? If the house is ventilated naturally there should never be a back flow problem, although the Trombe-wall type poly flaps are a nice touch for the 16 hours a year when we have reversals. This ventilation by the way will reduce the depressurization in the house 5) cooling and heating does of the intake air does occur, and NOT just by condensation. There are several computer models out there (in Europe) based on multi-year modelling of full-scale, lived-in houses. The heat transfer is not that complicated (a single number heattransfer coefficient is usually provided and this close to a constant). The earth storage dynamics are. I assume the above, because of the published research, the commercial versions available (one low-E house company installs them as standard equipment and has sold many hundreds of such homes), and of course basic science. Which brings me back to my original question, to paraphrase "We know that earth tubes both cool summer air and heat winter air, and do not suck in radon, nor are they to be used in a poorly built house (e.g. leaky), BUT, summer condensation is THE technical problem". My suggestion was an absorbing material, like porous poorly fired clay tile -- any others?. Although I am quite ready to accept they wont work along the humid Gulf Coast, for those in Vermont, Ontario, Idaho, surely we can find a solution. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 10:04:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08134 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:04:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA14949 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:02:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00683; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:56:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:51:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA00369 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:51:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.172]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00364 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:51:37 -0500 (EST) From: Ibe404@aol.com Received: from Ibe404@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id FGEOa19059; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:57:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <688fa8ba.34e45f45@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:57:07 EST To: terrain@cow-net.com, dmfoley@acadia.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: "sustainable" Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1990 the terminology we utilize is "total solutions" which encompass the clients' objectives and permits us to incorporate "gradually" their acceptance of doing it better through examples which must, at the same time, have a cost benefit impact. Irene Bledel ERpm 1401 Peachtree Street, NE, Ste. 500 Atlatna, Georgia 30309 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 10:11:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08267 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:11:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA16775 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:09:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01193; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:03:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:58:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA00737 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:57:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.165]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00733 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:57:49 -0500 (EST) From: Ibe404@aol.com Received: from Ibe404@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4WEOa10695; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:03:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1657d1bf.34e460c5@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:03:30 EST To: Gaiaspiral@aol.com, Greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Name Game Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1991 american indians lived in harmony with the land. maybe one of their words that is an acronym which depicts the message? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 11:11:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09341 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:11:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03797 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:10:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03752; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:04:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:58:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03115 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:58:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03106 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:58:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mbay152.cruzio.com (mbay152.cruzio.com [165.227.93.152]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id IAA09680 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:04:07 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980213080250.00c07ed8@mail.cruzio.com> X-Sender: hlevin@mail.cruzio.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:02:51 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Hal Levin Subject: GBlist: fwd: Problems in earth tubes in Sweden Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1992 >From: Ingemar Samuelson >We have studied temperature and RH in earth tubes used for supply air in >three Swedish scool buildings. The results can be found in a report from >the Swedish Council for Building Research (Anslagsrapport A13:1997 in >Swedish). In short the study showed: >Only a minor part of the needed amount of air was sucked in through the >tube. Acceptable air flow was recieved by opening the windows. >The preheating effect during winter and precooling effect during summer >thus was reduced. >During summer the humid warm air was cooled in the tube. In some periods >we observed condensation and analyses showed growth of mould and mildew >in the tube. > >The conclusion from the report is that both the energy gain and the >cooling effect is low and that there is a risk for low air quality. > >Ingemar Samuelson >SP Swedish National Testing and Research Institute > > > Hal Levin 2548 Empire Grade Santa Cruz, CA 95060-9748 408 425 3946 fax 408 426 6522 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 11:22:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09499 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA06701 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:21:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04334; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:15:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:11:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04027 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:11:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from saclink2.csus.edu (saclink2.csus.edu [130.86.82.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04016 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:11:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802131611.LAA04016@solstice.crest.org> Received: from PC-ANTHRO-04.mnh.csus.edu by saclink2.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA164086608; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:16:48 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "PE" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:52:13 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Re: Name Game Reply-To: sac28787@saclink.csus.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1993 lbe404Aaol.com wrote maybe one of their words that is an acronym which depicts the message? The First Americans didn't live in harmony with the planet, but were both better at it that the European-Americans and fewer in number, so their messes were fewer and smaller, except for some species eradication. After Europeans reintroduced horses, some First Americans got very good at being very wasteful. So neither ancient Greeks with Gaia nor First Americans are the best examples. You'll have to create your own. (or not) Naming's a messy game-- minimalism came to mean a space so stark that to live in it was an imposition. Try to imagine a more wasteful practice; William Gates' living tomb pales by comparison. Pet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 12:04:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10223 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:04:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19152 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:02:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05944; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:56:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:52:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05621 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:52:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05612 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 11:52:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.98] (pa-ppp13.hevanet.com [204.119.60.98]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02168 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:57:46 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802131657.IAA02168@hevanet.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:03:22 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: obrien@hevanet.com (Michael O'Brien) Subject: GBlist: Day Care Centers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1994 Re day care centers, here's a quote from the American Lung Association's current on-line newsletter: 3. Carpeted Areas in Schools: Magnets for Cat Allergen Researchers in New Zealand found that carpeted areas in school classrooms are major reservoirs of cat allergen, a potent asthma trigger. The cat allergen is transported from children's clothing to the carpet, the researchers reported in the December issue of the Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology. Wool and polyester clothing contained more cat allergen than cotton clothing, and girls' clothing had significantly higher levels of allergen than did that of boys. The researchers conclude that carpeting should be discouraged in schools and child-care centers, where children spend considerable time. For more information on the Journal of Allergy and Clinical Immunology visit http://www1.mosby.com/Mosby/Periodicals/Medical/JACI/ai.html. Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 12:43:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10973 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:43:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA01601 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:41:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07696; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:35:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:31:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA07365 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:31:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07352 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:31:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.98] (pa-ppp13.hevanet.com [204.119.60.98]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07141 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:36:49 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802131736.JAA07141@hevanet.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:42:25 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: obrien@hevanet.com (Michael O'Brien) Subject: GBlist: Quote (long, dusty & old) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1995 Here's a quote I've enjoyed for many years--it's in Guy Murchie's book, The Seven Mysteries of Life. "No single thing abides, but all things flow. Fragment to fragment clings; the things thus grow Until we know and name them. By degrees They melt, and are no more the things we know. "Globed from the atoms, falling slow or swift I see suns, I see the systems lift Their forms; and even the systems and their suns Shall go back slowly to the eternal drift. "Thou, too, O Earth--thine empires, lands and seas-- Least, with thy stars, of all the galaxies, Globed from the drift like these, like these thou too Shalt go. Thou art going, hour by hour, like these. "Nothing abides. Thy seas in delicate haze Go off; those mooned sands forsake their place; And where they are shall other seas in turn Mow with their scythes of whiteness other bays." -- Lucretius, On Nature ca. 55 B.C. Best, Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 13:31:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12070 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:31:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA16958 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:29:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09887; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:23:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:17:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA09532 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:17:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09527 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:17:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NBF03126; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:02:42 EST To: Terry@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:03:35 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: More on Name Game Message-ID: <19980213.130252.3326.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,6-8 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1996 Swami Terry, Thanks for the smile. Re your question "can you get this into a couple of words", how about "Cents and Sensibility Building". (my apologies to Ms. Austin for the paraphrase) Beverly _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 14:37:04 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12851 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:37:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA07700 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:35:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12932; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:29:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:24:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12507 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:24:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12503 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:24:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.99] (ub2.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.99]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA28315 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:30:38 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802131657.IAA02168@hevanet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:36:58 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Day Care Centers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1997 >Re day care centers, here's a quote from the American Lung Association's >current on-line newsletter: > >3. Carpeted Areas in Schools: Magnets for Cat Allergen >Wool and polyester clothing contained more cat allergen >than cotton clothing, and girls' clothing had significantly >higher levels of allergen than did that of boys. The >researchers conclude that carpeting should be discouraged >in schools and child-care centers, where children spend >considerable time. Two things. I have lot's more reasons to avoid carpeting in schools. Hey man, what about hemp clothing? - terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 14:47:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13054 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:47:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA10908 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:45:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13597; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:39:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:35:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13292 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:35:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13288 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:35:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA07979 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:40:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-55.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.183) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma006823; Fri Feb 13 13:30:59 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980213143006.006fd6f8@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:30:08 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Mainstreaming? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1998 Main-streaming Environmental Building (B. D. Howard comments) When I worked at NAHB & research center, 1986 - 1990, the mere utterance of the "E" word tended to send "mainstream" folks running for cover...this was especially promoted through the steady drumbeat of anti-environmental rhetoric that came out in the principal magazine, and the editorial flavor of the "NBN" publication which started as a result of needing a bully pulpit for "builder issues" in the "face of inappropriate and excessive environmental regulation..." Everything from wetlands preservation to energy codes then started being lumped into the "enviro" label -- a principal of marketing and political hooha is of course to label something then repeat repeat your message. It's like production builders saying "hey we are energy efficient, we meet the code don't we..." This chasm is really wide. !!! Alex -- DON'T change the title or mission of EBN. If anything, create a new and separate vehicle for the mainstream CONSUMER. Consumers are the vital engine that needs to be fueled here. I and other enviro-business types would be willing to support -- and I have seen this written on this list too -- the creation of a consumer 'zine to create market pull. When consumers really know they want an enviro-responsive home they will patronize builders and developers who can sell them one. E-building now is where personal computing was in ~1980. But less than twenty years later, PC's are everywhere and former garage businesses are now huge enterprises. Right now we are pretty much still preaching to the choir, which is one reason groups like the Alliance to Save Energy, EEBA, and many others are (or need to be) re-thinking their positions relative to consumer info. Government has failed badly promoting energy and resource efficiency to the public. Millions are spent on R&D but the actual information seems to get stuck in the pipe on its way to industry and the consumer, again and again. EPA EnergySTAR works to create brand identity, but is still "widget" oriented (except for their Homes program which looks at whole building energy efficiency). DOE has historically dropped the ball badly on boosting consumer awareness, but recently an update of "Home Energy Savers" was released and lo&behold it was printed by -- Owens Corning ! Now Congress figures to close consumer information resources like ERIC (used to be CAREIRS and NATAS). Too much public pork I guess, to fund an outreach program where anyone can learn how to save energy and help the environment. Nah, that's the job of the utility companies in their monthly bill mailers, right? We are also wading into the consumer area because we get lots of calls and need to automate a system to help them. B.E.S.T. is preparing (albeit on a slower timetable than we had thought) a new consumer web site on environmentally responsible homes, that will be all ABOUT CHOICES (not the name... ). Consumers tell us that a major problem they have is "too much data" and "not enough information" to make informed choices and purchase decisions. Another consumer beef is that "when I read up on green materials, everybody's product is best for the environment, and there is no level playing field or consistent product evaluations from impartial sources..." Groups like GreenSeal should be encouraged to continue and expand their programs, and in fact EBN could itself become a clearing house for LCA info (overhead to review and validate $$$) and other results. EBN is credible in the industry, and needs to partner with other groups: maybe Am. Lung Association, Cellulose Insulation groups, EEBA, Green Building Council, etc. to create such a program. I would love to be able to buy-in to an environmental building "Underwriters (tm)" lab, and refer my customers to it, who elect to join our new "envirohouse.com" consumer site. I usually wind up sending consumer/clients to groups like Oikos and RealGoods, and encourage them to spend quality time on research. We have even done some quick and dirty specific research for consumers, but most would rather find out on their own or subscribe to something. Alas, to truly mainstream our endeavors we need publications like Consumer Reports, Consumer's Research, Home Mechanix, BH&G, RedBook, etc. that are out there as consumer sources to consider what we are doing already IS mainstream. I was told, sadly however, by a major magazine editor that one of the only ways to "prove" you are mainstream is to have the bucks to buy advert space in bigtime consumer press (Madison Ave.). Reality's expensive bites. Finally, is Main-streaming actually any good? Examples: Ford Taurus is really mainstream, but does that make it good? CocaCola sure is, but how many fewer dentists would be in business if we didn't guzzle the stuff? But can I buy an electric hybrid car like a Toyota Prius, NOW in the US, for any amount of money? No, not unless I want to fly to Japan, pay through the snout for gray-market conversion and wait two months for shipping. Faah! That is exactly what we are doing right now to eager consumers who want green housing -- sure, move to Boulder, Portland, Austin, Minneapolis, Burlington, or Madison WI and build custom -- but you can't buy a production green home now from ANY major builder (>200 homes/yr) I know of. PLEASE tell me I am wrong! Oops, have to get back to work on web sites, no builders are waiting for their green building plan reviews to be completed...chuckle... So let's get to work on this one. Alex wrote -------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:40:47 -0500 (EST) From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game I've followed this thread with interest. Nadav Malin and I spent many hours debating what we should call EBN back in 1992 when we launched it. We decided on "Environmental Building News" over "Green Building News" or something like that, because we felt that "green" would not be as accepted in the mainstream building industry that we were (and are) hoping to reach with our mesage. So far I think the name has worked okay for us, though I don't think we've reached very far into the mainstream design and construction communities. We're still trying! With each message that comes in on this thread, I open it with hope that here will be the solution--a concise, clear handle that conveys what we do. So far, I haven't seen it. But I'll keep opening those messages expectantly.... What do GBlisters think of the name "Environmental Building News"? Why do you think we've been unsuccessful in attracting more of the mainstream industry in as subscribers. Nadav and I would very much appreciate hearing your thoughts and suggestions. Alex Wilson, Editor and Publisher -- Environmental Building News Brattleboro, Vermont | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 15:11:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13507 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:11:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA17783 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:09:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14826; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:03:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:59:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14363 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:59:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14356 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:59:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA09380; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 14:04:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-55.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.183) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma008987; Fri Feb 13 14:02:30 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980213150136.006fd6f8@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:01:38 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: building materials and daycare centers Cc: "Office of Sustainable Design & Construction" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1999 To: NYC - Office of Sustainable Design & Construction We read your message on the greenbuilding list, and want to encourage your efforts. Here are a few ideas for your project. Why not create a public opportunity notice (RFP) in which you get different suppliers of youth furnishings to submit their product's environmental performance data to a panel of experts (include Mr. Brennan for one, and perhaps others like John Spengler, Harvard School of Public Health, the CDC, and other IAQ noteables). You could convene such a panel and publish a white paper with guidance for selection of healthy furnishings. For smaller furniture businesses lacking test data, you could create a city standard for estimating and reporting the VOC, aerosol, hydrocarbon, and other emissions factors by evaluating the construction materials and finishes applied. Larger furniture makers may already report some information on emissions. Some materials emit large quantities of off gassing over a shorter period when new, while others release low levels "forever" or at varying rates depending on temperature and humidity. The EPA IAQ support contractor (Radian Corp.) in North Carolina has done a lot of work on materials offgasing and how to estimate in-building levels under various conditions. Your regional EPA office should be able to help here. >> Not unimportant is the building and its operating conditions. * Is there adequate ventilation and have other pollutant sources been reduced? !!! non smoking building !!! Radon tests? Biologicals? * Is the HVAC system operating properly? * Are the air-ducts leaky? (creates pressure differences and problems) * When was the last time the ducts were cleaned, and are there places where water can condense and stand (mold growth)? * Is the janitorial closet (& copier area) ventilated to the outdoors? * Are the lavatories cleaned with low emissions / biodegradable supplies? * When was the last time the carpets were cleaned and were the cleaners low in VOC emissions? * Does the vacuum cleaner have a HEPA filter? * Are loose-fill mineral fiber insulating materials near return air grilles? * What is the pest control plan for the building and what kinds of pesticides are being released inside the structure? ... and many others ... Develop an overall indoor environmental quality plan, and include all staff and administrators in the process. Get copy of: "Building Air Quality" building owners manual (EPA, NIOSH, CPSC) Doc # 055-000-00390-4 which is available through: US Sup't. Docs. PO Box 371954, Pittsburgh, PA 15250 (phone orders: 202-783-3238) We hope these comments have been useful, and that you successfully create healthy indoor environments for your children. | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 15:50:24 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14237 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:50:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA00230 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:48:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16867; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:38:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16467 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:38:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16463 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:38:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from power.ampsc.com (power.ampsc.com [207.102.161.149]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA24290; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:52:12 -0800 Message-ID: <34E4B05A.56C5@ampsc.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:43:06 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Brennan CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Day Care Centers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2000 Terry Brennan wrote: > Two things. I have lot's more reasons to avoid carpeting in schools. Hey > man, what about hemp clothing? - terry Honestly folks, anything that 'grabs' alien materials that can become contaminations should be avoided, at least in the wall to wall variety. Hard, durable, smooth surfaces, tile, wood, rock, stone, etc. and use area carpets and rugs for comfort zones, easily cleaned above, in and below the article of carpet or rug. Also easier and more economical to replace or repair, because of the individuality of the items. Richard. -- R J Moore & Associates - Real Estate Development Contract Management * Financial Analysis Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6 Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250)475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 16:18:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA14622 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:18:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA09144 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:17:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18513; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:10:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:06:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA17984 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:06:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17978 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:06:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov (mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.26]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA27029 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:11:59 -0500 Received: by mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD389A.1C3D7270@mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov>; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:11:58 -0500 Message-ID: From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: RE: GBlist: More on Name Game Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:07:50 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2001 Cents and Sensibility you know, i actually like that. i really do. maybe better w/o building" or with some other noun instead, or maybe best as the slogan... olivia > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 18:29:06 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA17092 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:29:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA16193 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:27:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA23734; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:21:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:16:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA23377 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:16:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA23373 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:16:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa7-p23.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.151]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id SAA29115 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:22:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34E4D4A5.2C73@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:17:58 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Mainstreaming Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2002 Bion, Thank you for a well thought out, considered, clear eyed synopsis of the issues we face. You show the admirable skills of extraction and synthesis in your reviewing of an issue, rare qualities in many of us. Your clarification and illumination of the causes and requisite solutions of our dilemma are at once practical and creative. I appreciate your insights. While mainstreaming is certainly a treacherous course to navigate, it is just as certainly the very force we MUST utilize. Changing the course of mainstream economics and altering the buying habits of the masses, is not only the central issue but it is the only issue. If we don't forever change the way we ALL do business/live, we are not accomplishing anything like sustainable change. Nice to hear your voice on this. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 19:06:15 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA17650 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:06:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA25219 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:04:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA25014; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:58:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:54:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24748 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:54:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA24744 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:54:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA29324; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:09:02 -0800 Message-Id: <34E4DEA3.711@arb.ca.gov> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 16:00:35 -0800 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Subject: GBlist: GB LIST: MARKETING POTENTIAL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2003 FYI, just saw 10/97 announcement for huge housing project by Simpson Housing Limited Partnership -- upscale condos in 4 major markets in US. Sounds like a potential inroad for green/healthy buildings thru builder and bank (KeyBank), or perhaps thru insurers: http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=105&STORY=/www/story/10-7-97/332217&EDATE= -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm http://arbis.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 21:43:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA28187 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:43:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA06501 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:42:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29372; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:36:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:31:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA29079 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:31:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29075 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:31:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA17371; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:36:59 -0800 Message-ID: <34E5027A.F2FD586A@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:33:30 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hal Levin , "ddc1@rapidramp.net" CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist:Problems in earth tubes in Sweden/ daycare buildings References: <3.0.32.19980213080250.00c07ed8@mail.cruzio.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2004 Thanks Hal for forwarding this. While the comments could be addressed in their technical aspects the tone suggests that this is not worth pursuing - is there a larger valuation of the risk factor? (would that have anything to do with the object of the study; school buildings?) Both this thread and the day care one have overlapped for me a concern that achieving energy objectives as an environmental criteria may be robbing peter to pay paul (is that the right expression). One of the complications of developing environmental criteria for the day care may be a set of specifications related to: energy efficiency as it falls within the category, and durability of materials (as it would relate to maintenance, etc.). The fulfillment of these specifications may compromise some of the potential health criteria which in my mind should seriously require air changes in the 5/hr range not 1/2 or 1 and daylighting to the point of further compormising the heating system (if improving, not just maintaining childrens health is really a concern) and durability generally means more complex chemical usage. I can't help think that energy concerns are a false god as they are so subject to the machinations of politics/economics. The development of a strong health criteria may prompt more responsible development of, at this point, an easily achievable usage of more responsible energy sources. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Hal Levin wrote: > >From: Ingemar Samuelson > > >We have studied temperature and RH in earth tubes used for supply air in > >three Swedish scool buildings. The results can be found in a report from > >the Swedish Council for Building Research (Anslagsrapport A13:1997 in > >Swedish). In short the study showed: > >Only a minor part of the needed amount of air was sucked in through the > >tube. Acceptable air flow was recieved by opening the windows. > >The preheating effect during winter and precooling effect during summer > >thus was reduced. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 22:01:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA28362 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:01:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA10625 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:00:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA00204; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:54:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:50:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA29910 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:49:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA29905 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:49:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id VpS29502; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:31:15 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: marciamcd@juno.com Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:35:42 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game Message-ID: <19980213.190921.3438.2.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <199802121617.IAA18269@hevanet.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-7,10-11,14-19,21,23-24,31-37 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2005 On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:23:26 -0800 obrien@hevanet.com (Michael O'Brien) writes: >Hi, All-- > >It seems that we are uncomfortable with the names suggested so far. I suppose it is somewhat of a consensus that GREEN and ENVIRONMENTAL and SUSTAINABLE all have tainted connotations- and we want something more cutting edge without such. We'll get it if we keep the channels open to constructive brainstorming. even if nothing is "perfect" right away, we can just set it aside and not condemn it. >The term "feng shui" has caught on quickly here--seems to have the >right mix of exotic new age appeal and cultural history. Perhaps we need >something with more cachet? you are very right- Feng Shui is becoming very popular through out the country. As i stated in a thread this summer i have studied this extensively as well as native american and other cultural sources of this concept. Just thought of some- not exactly on target, but might just help someone else generate the ONE: "The Tao of Building", "Yin-Yang and Design", FLW's term "Organic Architecure", from a current book "Earth Design", from Ayruvedic Design- Design According to Natural Law, Alternative Architecture, Design for a New Age, Design for the New Milleneum, Design in the Age of Aquarius, Harmony of design, synchronistic architcture, "buildings in the flow", .... I will look through my notes and see if anything jumps out at me. Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 22:05:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA28398 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:05:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA11621 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:03:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA00522; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:57:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:53:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA00117 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:53:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA00110 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 21:53:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA17655; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:58:43 -0800 Message-ID: <34E50792.3F986E6B@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:55:14 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ddc1@rapidramp.net CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green day care center References: <199802122219.RAA01726@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2006 Well I am very encouraged by this - having a child locked into an unhealthy environment for a large chunk of their existence is a source of one of my biggest personal concerns. There are innumerable potential sources of contamination for children who are becoming increasingly sensitized and the most worrisome source within this is increasing problems of synergy even within materials possibly considered benign and increased sensitivities to biological materials. Another problem is the faith put in what is being offered commercially as alternatives. Low VOC formulations dependent upon relatively new polymers may prove significantly dangerous in low term effects especially in concentration as walls finishes/ floor finishes/ cabinetry finishes/ textile coatings, etc. share some basic material base in the new range of finishes available. Design for children typically favours primary pigments and hard (as in durable) reflective surfaces and the formulations for these only exacerbate the problem. I think environments for children need to be considered differently than what has evolved as general criteria for environmental or 'high performance' projects. Initially we need a physical model or a revision and critique of our model of not just optimum health for a child but a model of what are enhancements to health. Air as in both quantity, flow, and quality. Light as in daylight (intensity including natural variations in intensity, spectrum, physical (nutritional) aspects, sanitizing aspects, etc. ETC. as in putting to knowledge or committing to experience the piles of information accumulated to little effect. We need to relate the model to every aspect of the design looking for potential areas of impact, conflict, etc. Third we need to dedicate the resources as possible to achieve the priorities indicated in the model - short term excess as in costly sophisticated energy designs up front or long term mortgaging of the same costs as in wasting energy inputs to achieve the more important health goals. As I mentioned before we certainly have the information to act with and are clever enough generally to always manage to finance the priorities we establish - the question is can we be clever enough to establish the right priorities. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Office of Sustainable Design & Construction wrote: > Hello, I'm new to this list; I'm with the New York City Department of > Design and Construction (DDC). I am looking into 'healthy' furnishings for > day care centers; that is, low-emitting materials and furniture, and also, > furnishings which will not aggravate asthmatic children. I have already > talked to Terry Brennan and other experts, but any further info. would be > appreciated. I assume things like PVC plastic in furniture for children > should be avoided. Also to add to the name game, we term our green > buildings 'high performance' buildings. Thank you, > > Jennifer S. > NYC DDC > Office of Sustainable Design & Construction > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 22:27:59 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA28601 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:27:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA16777 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:26:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01188; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:20:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:16:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA00910 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00906 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:16:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA9-p20.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.212]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA10129 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:22:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34E50CCF.5D1C@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:17:35 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Name Game Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2007 Samantha wrote: "Yin-Yang and Design", Harmony of design, Balance and harmonic are both terms that encompass much of what we are trying to convey, the concept I keep trying to name is most about long range value and balance or blending. Logs and Timber both strike a chord in our subconscious because they speak to a perceived solidity and of course, the warmth of wood, both are concepts people find appealing. Balanced Building/Balanced Design, I don't think it quite covers the whole menu, but it is part of what I want to relate to a customer. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 23:08:24 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA29092 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:08:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA29571 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:06:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02047; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:00:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:56:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01746 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:56:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01742 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 22:56:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id XkV29502; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:01:30 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:39:27 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Name Game Message-ID: <19980213.203927.3494.1.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <34E50CCF.5D1C@dreamscape.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,11-21,23-30 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2008 Chuck, thank you for your positive statement- while you might not realize the significance- i felt a few flames on the line lately. Your addition is something we need to build on. defining what we want to convey is half of the task- reducing it to a minimal # of words is the other. One thing that might get in the way of coming to a concensus is that even though we are all on the list for the same reasons in general- we still have differences of opinion of what each of us wants to convey (hence the flames). if anything- i now have many terms to help me in my own definition and for my own articles- did i miss the decision to go ahead with "our" own magazine vs getting published in others? >Samantha wrote: "Yin-Yang and Design", Harmony of design, >Balance and harmonic are both terms that encompass much of what we are >trying to convey, the concept I keep trying to name is most about long >range value and balance or blending. >Logs and Timber both strike a chord >in our subconscious because they speak to a perceived solidity and of >course, the warmth of wood, both are concepts people find appealing. FYI- wood and the balance of the elements is covered extensively in Feng Shui. >Balanced Building/Balanced Design, I don't think it quite covers the >whole menu, but it is part of what I want to relate to a customer. Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 23:21:04 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA29166 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:21:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA03190 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:19:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02513; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:13:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:09:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02275 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:09:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02271 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:09:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip207.efn.org [204.214.97.207]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA14329; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:13:13 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: Cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 19:11:07 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd38f6$3165b020$c661d6cc@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2009 What about "Responsible Building"? No eco-whacko connotations there. And we're always hearing about the importance of personal responsibility. Robert Bolman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 13 23:42:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA29479 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:42:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA09462 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:40:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03189; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:34:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:30:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02926 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:30:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02921 for ; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 23:30:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA19482; Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:35:44 -0800 Message-ID: <34E51E4E.941CA84A@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:32:14 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Bolman CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, marciamcd@juno.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game References: <01bd38f6$3165b020$c661d6cc@home.efn.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2010 Robert Bolman wrote: > What about "Responsible Building"? No eco-whacko connotations there. And > we're always hearing about the importance of personal responsibility. > Responsibuild Greenbuilt Ecobuild Ecoeconobuild Envirobuild Environeconobuild Sustanabuilt sustanaecobuilt Durabuild Remediabuild Healthybuilt buildnlive buildnthrive buildngrowbuildless Greenhome Ecohome Sustanahome Enviorhome homesolutions homenhealthy homeless > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 14 06:14:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA03082 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 06:14:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA12977 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 06:13:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA08673; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 06:07:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Feb 1998 06:02:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA08472 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 06:02:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA08468 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 06:02:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA07683 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 06:08:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 06:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from csy15.vineyard.net(199.232.92.75) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma007666; Sat Feb 14 06:07:58 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Name Game Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2011 John Salmen: You've taken the Name Game to a new poetic height. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 14 09:57:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA05572 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:57:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA13485 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:55:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11986; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:49:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:45:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11743 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:45:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11739 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:45:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5.carleton.ca [134.117.136.25]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v2.02) with ESMTP id IAA03189; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:57:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id IAA05382; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:57:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 08:57:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802141357.IAA05382@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: Name Game Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2012 Hello GB-Heads-without-a-Name; I don't know if John Bower has already suggested it or not but "Healthy Housing" or "Healthy Building" seems to be a reasonable moniker.... in the sense that what we are striving to achieve are solutions that do as much as possible to ensure Occupant Health as well as the Health of the Planet while at the same time, maintaining the Health of the Client's Pocketbook. A few years ago (1992 ?) , CMHC initiated what it called the "Healthy Housing Program". It's objectives focussed upon : (i) Occupant Health (ii) Energy Efficiency (iii) Resource Efficiency (iv) Environmental Responsibility (v) Affordability and Economic Viability It would seem that the above would describe what "greenbuilding/sustainable building" are striving to achieve. To kick the program off, Canada Mortgage & Housing Corp (CMHC) sponsored a "Healthy Housing" design competition and the "Toronto Healthy House" (yes, it has a website) was one of the competition winners. The competition design was called the "Codicile", a 1215 sq ft urban infill facing a back lane in the spot formerly occupied by the garage. It was and is not connected to the grid for power,water or sewage, generates its own electricity, harvests rainwater and purifies its own grey/black water for re-use. "Greenbuilding" and "sustainable" in the best sense of the words eh? ... but they called it "Healthy". CMHC can't copyright the label "Healthy Housing" can they ? What possible negative connotations could the term "Healthy Housing" have for the "Mainstream Market". (That's one for FlamBait Fred to answer. He can slam ANYTHING) -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 14 10:36:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06077 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:36:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21651 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:34:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13106; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:28:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:24:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12849 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:24:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12845 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:24:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sd7.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.232]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA14301 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:30:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34E5B75A.59DB@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:25:14 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Name Game Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2013 Let me step on Fred's toes. Samantha seems to feel that perhaps I sputter a flame or two myself, so I will be careful of my wording here. The notion of healthy, while it should be the friendliest, least offensive of terms, is often looked at in the marketplace as tasteless, bland, sterile. The "twigs and sprouts" mentality, the local natural foods stores nickname by those not into the natural, healthy lifestyle. Rice cakes, fat free, soy bean curd, etc., while for many of you these terms are positive, beneficial and benign, the vast majority of the public don't see these things in that light. Many will turn a sour face at anything termed 'healthy", mostly because it has been so over worked in the market already. One of our major battles will be to raise the average consumers awareness of "health" as more than a government debate over how to cover the costs of health care. I know this is a very negative point of view, but I believe that the issues are just that simple. We have a huge educational process ahead of us and if we overestimate the level of awarenes of the "average" citizen and thereby underestimate the scale of the task ahead, we will be sorely disappointed when we fall way short of our goals. How's that for a bit of gloom and doom? Sorry Fred. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 14 10:40:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06104 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:40:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA22725 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:38:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13536; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:28:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13124 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:28:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13116 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA08897 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:34:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-58.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.186) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma008885; Sat Feb 14 09:33:39 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980214103244.006f0da4@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:32:46 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: whats in a name -- a WWW domain! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2014 Better get these registered right away... =|;o } ---- Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:32:14 -0800 From: John Salmen Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game Robert Bolman wrote: > What about "Responsible Building"? No eco-whacko connotations there. And > we're always hearing about the importance of personal responsibility. Responsibuild Greenbuilt Ecobuild Ecoeconobuild Envirobuild Environeconobuild Sustanabuilt sustanaecobuilt Durabuild Remediabuild Healthybuilt buildnlive buildnthrive buildngrowbuildless Greenhome Ecohome Sustanahome Enviorhome homesolutions homenhealthy homeless | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 14 11:02:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA06260 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:02:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28459 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:01:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14635; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:55:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:51:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14287 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:50:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from perham.eot.com (perham.eot.com [206.9.124.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14281 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:50:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from eot.com (tvu-22.dialup.eot.com [206.9.124.87]) by perham.eot.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id KAA11885 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:01:26 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 10:01:26 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802141601.KAA11885@perham.eot.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail and News for Macintosh - 1.1 (34) Subject: GBlist: name game From: Bruce Brummitt To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2015 How about...Eco-Systems, Ltd? Bruce Cheryl Valois and Bruce Brummitt 46N56' 95W20 Visit the Natural Building Gallery ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 14 12:43:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08577 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA24706 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:41:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17289; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:31:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16965 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:31:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from saclink2.csus.edu (saclink2.csus.edu [130.86.82.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16961 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:31:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802141731.MAA16961@solstice.crest.org> Received: from PC-ANTHRO-04.mnh.csus.edu by saclink2.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA231807820; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:37:00 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "PE" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 09:12:12 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Is the name game sustainable? Reply-To: sac28787@saclink.csus.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2016 balance tao (usually mispronounced) harmony blending home warm green fengshui (more Chinese?) healthy building housing house design bau (wow) eco- sustainable holistic natural synergy So it goes. In the end, critics' names are often the best, as with impressionism, fauvism, cubism, jazz, all dissing the doers. By that standard, green wins. If it's not outrageous enough (it isn't)... Nesting. Pet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 14 12:46:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08598 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:46:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA25375 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:44:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17495; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:38:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:34:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17156 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:34:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17149 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:34:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.31] (blf31.acadia.net [205.217.217.31]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA18389 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:40:12 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 12:38:09 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2017 > What about "Responsible Building"? No eco-whacko connotations there. And >we're always hearing about the importance of personal responsibility. > >Robert Bolman > Seconded. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 14 16:37:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA10806 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:37:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA21751 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:36:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24416; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:30:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:25:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24134 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:25:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24130 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:25:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.55 (pm1-23.hoosier.net [206.106.67.55]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA03939 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:46:22 -0500 Message-ID: <34E5F480.7E6E@bloomington.in.us> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:46:09 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Name Game References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2018 Any name you come up with implies that you are different from (and better than?) conventional construction. Thus, there's going to be resentment on their part. I specialize in human health in houses and I think it's ridiculous to talk about healthy construction as something different. Even though it IS something different at this time, ALL houses should be healthy. Features that are sustainable, green, energy-efficient, healthy, etc., etc. shouldn't be odd or out of the ordinary. They should be considerations that are just as valid (or more so) than facade design, room layout, color of paint, etc. Focusing on a name is just going to separate "us" and "them" even more. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 14 16:59:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA10889 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:59:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA27084 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:57:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25303; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:51:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:47:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24822 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:47:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24816 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:47:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip214.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.214]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA04554; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:13:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980214211856.006d02f0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:18:56 -0500 To: "Bion D. Howard" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Mainstreaming? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2019 At 02:30 PM 2/13/1998 -0500, Bion D. Howard wrote: >That is exactly what we are doing right now to eager consumers who want >green housing -- sure, move to Boulder, Portland, Austin, Minneapolis, >Burlington, or Madison WI and build custom -- but you can't buy a >production green home now from ANY major builder (>200 homes/yr) I know of. > PLEASE tell me I am wrong! According to my mail from EPA - the Energy Star Homes Update says that Pulte, the largest home builder in the nation, is committing several hundred homes in AZ & NM - while Watt is comitted to 100% of its new homes to Energy Star. Maybe not green, but hopefully lean. best for the new year ---- -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 14 17:59:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA11346 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:59:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA11069 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:58:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA27707; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:51:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:48:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA27450 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:47:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA27446 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 17:47:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA05152; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:53:13 -0800 Message-ID: <34E61F81.22C00EBA@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:49:37 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Bower CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game References: <34E5F480.7E6E@bloomington.in.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2020 Though I agree with the motivation for not talking about difference there is some reason for differentiation. All houses should be healthy - but that in itself is a relatively new and different understanding (though there are lots of 100yr plus unhealthy house commentaries) from houses as houses. I am continuously surprised at how willing people are to compromise issues of health if it seems that it would interfere with footage, finishes, cost, even when there are specific health issues of concern. Its compromised because fundamentally people think it is o.k to live in unhealthy environments. To not think so means being different and there has to be a place for those differences to be valued before people are willing to commit to valuing things differently. I think the issue of health within and as part of a home needs to be focused on as something different, especially in the sense of making a difference - and as something that has more value than what is being offered as currently having value in a home. How for example is the notion that a carpet can make you ill going to gain any currency over the common notion that a carpet is comfy, good value, and a standard. You could make wood floors good looking, good value and a standard but no one will have learned anything really and we will have to go through the subsequent stages of wood floors with unhealthy finishes, etc. If health is the prime criteria then that has to be marketed as different than our existing values. There is a funny process in group development or dynamic and that is differentiation. Each difference has to be validated meaning explored and communicated as a difference before it can become accepted, valued and included as something 'normal'. This is a process very evident in cultural groups and is often specifically exploited as a means of gaining acceptance and value. Its nice to feel included but that will only be token unless the driving forces (thanks Irene) for being included are keenly felt by all as having primary value. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. John Bower wrote: > Any name you come up with implies that you are different from (and > better than?) conventional construction. Thus, there's going to be > resentment on their part. > > I specialize in human health in houses and I think it's ridiculous to > talk about healthy construction as something different. Even though it > IS something different at this time, ALL houses should be healthy. > > Features that are sustainable, green, energy-efficient, healthy, etc., > etc. shouldn't be odd or out of the ordinary. They should be > considerations that are just as valid (or more so) than facade design, > room layout, color of paint, etc. > > Focusing on a name is just going to separate "us" and "them" even more. > -- > John Bower, The Healthy House Institute > http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us > 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 > Phone/fax 812-332-5073 > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 14 18:23:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11582 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:23:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA17135 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:21:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA29152; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:15:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:12:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA28875 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:11:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28871 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:11:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Sat, 14 Feb 1998 15:28:14 +0000 Date: Sat, 14 Feb 98 15:25:26 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: name game To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5041123.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2021 lilacmn@eot.com writes: >How about...Eco-Systems, Ltd? Hey, if you're going to do it, might as well make that Eco-Systems UNLtd. BC -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 14 22:09:53 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA13317 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:09:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA07820 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:08:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA04975; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:02:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:56:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA04606 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:56:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA04602 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from roar.ampsc.com (roar.ampsc.com [207.102.161.184]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA28423; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:11:01 -0800 Message-ID: <34E65A6A.755B@ampsc.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:00:58 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: re: Name Game References: <199802141357.IAA05382@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2022 Robert W. Tom wrote: > CMHC can't copyright the label "Healthy Housing" can they ? Best source to answer that is the copyright departments in government. defined rights to use are what it is all about, there is an american company called Healthy Housing Institute. If the main focus of GreenBuild is for residential occupancies, then Healthy Housing is quite appropriate, and I endorse it's use. I focus on all building occupancies, not just residential, and Healthy Buildings, or Healthy Structures, or etc. become more better defining? Richard. Richard. -- R J Moore & Associates - Real Estate Development Contract Management * Financial Analysis Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6 Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250)475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 14 22:13:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA13350 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:13:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA08649 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA05139; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:05:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:00:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA04775 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:00:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA04770 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:00:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from roar.ampsc.com (roar.ampsc.com [207.102.161.184]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA28492; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:14:46 -0800 Message-ID: <34E65B4B.29A2@ampsc.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:04:43 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Brummitt CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: name game References: <199802141601.KAA11885@perham.eot.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2023 Bruce Brummitt wrote: > > How about...Eco-Systems Ltd.? I like it, since all disciplines involved in the development of structures are system based. Broadens the thinking on ecology and systems. I endorse it. Richard. Eco-Systems Limited - Real Estate Development Contract Management * Financial Analysis Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6 Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250)475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 14 22:28:44 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA13465 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA12482 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:27:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA05596; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:21:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:15:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA05334 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:15:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05330 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:15:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from roar.ampsc.com (tiger.ampsc.com [207.102.161.155]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA28807 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:30:28 -0800 Message-ID: <34E65EF7.328C@ampsc.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:20:23 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Annoucement: Eco-Systems Unlimited Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2024 Eco-Systems Unlimited - Sustaining Safe and Healthy Occupancies Development Management, Building Systems Analysis, Indoor Air Environment Specialists, Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 15 00:46:00 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA16101 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:46:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA16820 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:44:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08524; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:38:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:34:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA07810 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:33:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07806 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:33:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id A`D01419; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:38:40 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:20:57 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Name game Message-ID: <19980214.221655.3438.9.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <199802141731.MAA16961@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 6-7,9-13 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2025 one thought on ism's- it was once pointed out to me that they are typical of fads- short lived- one important thing i can see is that this new change ocurring- people simplifying their lives- wouldnt work as a fad- giving up the 3 car garage and boat? who would do that for a fad? alright, some might, but more likely they are doing it because they are realizing the fad of "more is better" is based on false logic and hasnt produced what they hoped it would. i think with all of this brainstorming and word assotiation we are getting close! keep the names coming! Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 15 00:46:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA16112 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:46:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA16889 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:44:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08560; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:38:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:34:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA07832 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:34:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07820 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:34:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id A`C01419; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:38:40 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:10:16 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Name Game Message-ID: <19980214.221655.3438.8.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <34E5B75A.59DB@dreamscape.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2,5-6,9,13-19 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2026 well worded Chuck, just the observational facts, no personal oppinions to block the energy. while healthy is our aim- you are correct that it would only target those that view healthy as good, not the ones who havent made the shift yet. these darned connotations keep getting in our way! i have thought about simply taking a poll at work (non green building environment) as to what they might be receptive to. i will let you know what they say. i have also thought of polling our thousands of customers- but i am not the person with the contacts and i will have to work on getting that one done- i have an insider in marketing that will definitely be at the parade of homes i described earlier. FYI-a book with title "earthwise" jumped out at me today-possible lead. Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 15 00:46:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA16117 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:46:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA16939 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:44:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08598; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:38:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:34:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA07853 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:34:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07831 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:34:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id A`G01419; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:38:40 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:59:43 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game Message-ID: <19980214.221655.3438.12.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-4,6-7,9,11-12,15-16,20-21,23-27 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2027 What about "Responsible Building"? No eco-whacko connotations >there. And we're always hearing about the importance of personal responsibility. >Seconded. > just thought i would tie this into what one member commented on Native american values: Responsibility is defined in one Seneca book of mine as: the "ability to respond" "The ability to respond to the past is to honor the traditions of our ancestors, their wisdom ..." "The ability to respond to the present is to seek beauty in every moment of the day, using our gifts, talents and abilities for the greatest good of all..." "The ability to respond to the future lies in understanding the present. We understand that the survival and the well-being of the next seven generations depend upon every thougth we think and every action we take in the now..." "Dont sit and wait for someone else to do something- use your creativity, speak your truth, and respond" Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 15 00:46:47 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA16122 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA16980 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:45:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08632; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:39:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:34:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA07821 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:34:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07816 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:34:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id A`F01419; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 00:38:40 EST To: doughf@mindspring.com Cc: bdhoward@ix.netcom.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 21:44:27 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Mainstreaming? Message-ID: <19980214.221655.3438.11.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <1.5.4.32.19980214211856.006d02f0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5,7-11,14-15,17-21 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2028 Frazer wrote: >According to my mail from EPA - the Energy Star Homes Update says that >Pulte, the largest home builder in the nation, is committing several hundred >homes in AZ & NM - while Watt is comitted to 100% of its new homes toEnergy >Star. > >Maybe not green, but hopefully lean. I have a list here for the Denver area- over 40 builders are building Green- the biggest of which is US home- though they arent the biggest in this area. i have a similar list of similar length of EStar builders in the area. I think i will take these lists to the biggest builder to see if i cant instill a little competitiveness! Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 15 02:11:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA16830 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 02:11:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA03030 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 02:10:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA11146; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 02:04:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:59:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA10548 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:59:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from tumalo.bendnet.com (tumalo.bendnet.com [199.2.205.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA10543 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 01:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.163.37.54] (b44.bendnet.com [206.163.37.54]) by tumalo.bendnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.6/bendnet-MX) with SMTP id WAA12229 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:28:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:24:52 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: airtime@bendnet.com (Marti Croal) Subject: Re: GBlist: re: Name Game/Healthy Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2029 >Hello GB-Heads-without-a-Name; > >I don't know if John Bower has already suggested it or not but >"Healthy Housing" or "Healthy Building" seems to be a reasonable >moniker.... Just an info bit in relation to the inclusion of "healthy" in the name quest. Apparently, when the ALA wanted to build one of their "Healthy House" demo projects as part of a large metro area "Street of Dreams," the other builders objected strongly - and ALA was not allowed to participate - because their single Healthy House would give the impression that all the others were unhealthy.... seems like a good case of "if the shoe fits..." I wonder if, as the idea of healthy building becomes more mainstream (2 different articles in the Spring 98 edition of Better Homes and Gardens Building Plan Ideas - one entitled What is a healthy house?, the other on mold) could the negative connotations (read bad PR) for those who aren't building healthy homes help to bring them into the fold? Or will they just keep fighting to keep the healthy homes out of the marketing showcases? Marti Croal airTIGHT INSULATION of oregon Icynene Licensed Contractor ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 15 09:10:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA19899 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:10:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA04346 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:09:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16558; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:03:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Feb 1998 08:58:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA16307 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 08:58:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo30.mail.aol.com (imo30.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.168]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16303 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 08:58:30 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo30.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4LNEa19885 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:03:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <837dc401.34e6f5bc@aol.com> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:03:38 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2030 I think several people have made some good points but I don't think we've found a name that means what we would like it to mean and still be able to attract mainstream customers. On the other hand, we may find a distinctive name, maybe even confrontational in nature, will generate interest. There is an exercise that could help focus our thinking and provide valuable information and that's a focus group. How about asking AIA/NAHB to convene such a group? Members of this group could offer to design and the target audience would be first,second, and third time homebuyers. Information could be gathered on the focus group's perception of environmental/healthy/sustainable, etc building and information on the same could be presented. One immediate question I have is whether there should be a separate focus group for commercial/institutional buyers or incorporated in the same group as above. I propose a few people generate a proposal, it gets reviewed here as it develops and it could happen. Any takers? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 15 10:51:59 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20891 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:51:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA25608 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:50:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18659; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:44:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:40:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18422 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:40:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18418 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:40:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.44 (pm1-12.hoosier.net [206.106.67.44]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA18945; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:45:55 -0500 Message-ID: <34E70DA4.4140@bloomington.in.us> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:45:43 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marti Croal CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Name Game/Healthy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2031 Marti Croal wrote (in part): could the negative connotations (read bad PR) for those who aren't > building healthy homes help to bring them into the fold? Or will they just > keep fighting to keep the healthy homes out of the marketing showcases? > Most likely, change will occur very slowly, but after a while, conventional builders will say "Healthy houses? Oh, yeah, we've been doing that for years." As an example, houses never used to have any insulation, then they had a little, now many mainstream builders actually are starting to do it right. Of course, it took an energy crisis to change some minds. Will we need an environmental/health crisis? It could be in the works.... -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 15 12:19:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA23324 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:19:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19654 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:18:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21001; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:12:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:08:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20744 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:07:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from UPIMSSMTPSYS01 (upimssmtpsys01.email.msn.com [207.68.152.139]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20739 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:07:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR01 - 207.68.143.137 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:10:23 -0800 Received: from GFX-CH - 153.35.8.110 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:09:56 -0800 From: "carmine vasile" To: , Subject: Re: GBlist: GFX Study Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:13:01 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <034395609170f28UPIMSSMTPUSR01@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2032 Given the reaction to Dan Cautley's original message [below], I thought some preliminary results would be of interest and also help answer some of the many questions received by E-mail ------- from a consumer's perspective. *************************************************************** >"The Faulks GFX was installed on 12/10/97 and was to be >turned to the off position for the first three weeks. On 12/23/97 >Diane Faulk called to see if I could turn the GFX on since she >was having 6 relatives stay with her over the holidays. She >expressed to me that having it on would give it a true test of >how effective it could be with recovery time. At times there >would be 6 or 7 showers all in succession. I agreed that it >would benefit everyone to put it through a tough test. I went >out on 12/ 23/97 and turned it to the on position. Diane was >real excited to see how it was going to work. On 01/5/98 I >returned to take readings and talked with Bruce Faulk about >how it worked. He was overwhelmed on how it performed >and said he would recommend it to anyone. The other >customers are saying the same things also, including myself. >It does make a big difference.".... Forwarded by: Jim Carney Vaughn Mfg Corp 800-282-8446 508-462-4683 fax jcarney@vaughncorp.com *************************************************************** >"The preliminary results on our NAHB study are very impressive. >Dean Talbott said he was seeing 35 to 40% less total water >heating energy on the first round of comparisons. He's confirmed >his inclusion of GFX in their rebate program. " Forwarded by: Michael LeBeau Conservation Technologies 2302 W. Superior St. Duluth, MN 55806 http://www.conservtech.com E-mail: mlebeau@conservtech.com ************************************************************************** -----Original Message----- From: Dan Cautley To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Monday, November 10, 1997 7:24 PM Subject: GBlist: GFX Study >I have received an overwhelming response from readers interested >in the results of the GFX drainwater heat recovery performance study. > I will plan to post an announcement on this list when results are >available. The results will probably be available in several forms, >including at least a summary on our web site at www.nahbrc.org. > >The study is just beginning, with the first installations planned for >this week in Virginia. Preliminary results will be available by >March. > >Dan Cautley >dcautley@nahbrc.org >Phone 800-638-8556 x706 >Fax 301-249-3265 > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 15 16:40:00 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA00636 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:39:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA00844 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:38:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00796; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:32:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:27:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00518 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:27:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00512 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:27:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.66] (uc1.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.66]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA13602 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:33:49 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34E70DA4.4140@bloomington.in.us> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 16:40:11 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game/Healthy Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2033 John Bower wrote >Most likely, change will occur very slowly, but after a while, >conventional builders will say "Healthy houses? Oh, yeah, we've been >doing that for years." As an example, houses never used to have any >insulation, then they had a little, now many mainstream builders >actually are starting to do it right. Of course, it took an energy >crisis to change some minds. Will we need an environmental/health >crisis? It could be in the works.... My experience along these lines is similar to John's. Over the years I've worked with many builders, building owner's and managers, architect's, engineers, government agencies, NGOs and research groups. I've seen good ideas go almost completely ignored or become industry standard in a few short years. All the stuff that became incorporated in a few years had these things in common 1) it didn't cost much more than the way it was being done 2) the hassle factor was low (getting it, installing it, maintaining it) 3) it actually worked Once at the it's-finally-done-and-we've-moved-in-party I overheard the builder I'd worked with explaining to some of his competitors what idiots they were because they weren't doing the very things he had given me the most difficult time about. It was inevitable that it came exactly when I was so depressed I was thinking about changing carreers because the building community seemed so resistant to change. It wasn't that he disagreed with the ideas. He liked the ideas. It was that initially he felt like he, and his living were under attack, that he was being told he'd done it wrong all those years. I've found that when I pry my white-knuckled hands from around other people's throats, it's total amazing what they will do, say or try. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 15 18:06:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04762 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:06:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA23820 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:04:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03267; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 17:58:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Feb 1998 17:53:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA02991 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 17:53:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA02985 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 17:53:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.162.253.67] (d47.best1.net [205.162.253.67]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA14160 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 14:59:34 -0800 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 14:59:49 -0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2034 >> What about "Responsible Building"? No eco-whacko connotations there. And >>we're always hearing about the importance of personal responsibility. >> >>Robert Bolman >> >Seconded. > Responsibuilding?? Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 15 19:22:59 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA11465 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA16276 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA06960; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:15:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:11:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA06529 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:10:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06525 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:10:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (sasc2-92.flash.net [209.30.90.92]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA05770 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:16:40 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34E78785.81CD0651@flash.net> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:25:42 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Messages for Greenbuilder Group Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Orientation Issue ( L.Stivers version)] References: <2232832@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2035 Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > --- You wrote: > and carefully measure 15 degrees to the east of true south. > --- end of quoted material --- > why this last? > > Even simpler - go late am, install the stick, put a pebble at the shadow's end > every 15 minuts til early pm. Shortest shadow is true north, don't need no > compass or even a watch, or a second stick. Marc, Well, Gosh--how many pebbles is a stick worth? Actually, your solution wins the low-tech-but-acceptably-accurate prize. The measurement of 15 degrees east of due south was in response to something in this thread about having an acceptable window of solar effectiveness between 165 and 180 degrees. On the same thread, but with the choke set for a wider pattern, I'm continually amazed at the number of subdivisions that are planned out with absolutely no regard for solar orientation. A windowless wall might face south with evergreens planted on the south side and disiduous trees on the north. The saddest part (and the primary reason the developers can get away with it) is that most homebuyers don't have a clue that it makes any difference! Looking around me locally, I fear we are part of a miniscule minority. Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 15 20:11:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA12477 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:11:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA28555 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:09:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA08554; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:03:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:59:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA08309 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:59:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA08305 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:59:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26398; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:05:01 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-092.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.92), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd026388; Sun Feb 15 18:04:59 1998 Message-ID: <34E7906F.C8583ED4@primenet.com> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:03:43 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Stivers , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Orientation Issue ( L.Stivers version)] References: <2232832@lyme.VALLEY.NET> <34E78785.81CD0651@flash.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2036 Dear Larry, I just toured two beautiful Rastra panel homes being built here in the Prescott area. Now these structures are both over 4000 square feet; one has a 1600 square foot car garage etc. They are in the 400 to 600 thousand dollar range (way out of my league!). The interesting thing is the lack of solar orientation. They did so much right with the Rastra panels and incredibly beautiful architecture and when it came to solar orientation - nothing! Both of these places (within a few lots of one another) were built on over 4 acres of land and their orientation was not restricted in any way. It just simply was not an issue. They "pointed" for views and that was it. This is so wasteful and a terrible mistake. I am sure the builders do not want to hear about this problem. They were each built by different folks by the way. How can we have come this far and yet so few take into account this issue. It boggles the mind! Regards, John Wilson Prescott, AZ. Larry Stivers wrote: > ...On the same thread, but with the choke set for a wider pattern, I'm continually > amazed at the number of subdivisions that are planned out with absolutely no > regard for solar orientation. A windowless wall might > face south with evergreens planted on the south side and disiduous trees on the > north. The saddest part (and the primary reason the developers can get away with > it) is that most homebuyers don't have a clue that it makes any difference! > Looking around me locally, I fear we are part of a miniscule minority. > > Larry > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 15 21:10:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA13509 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:10:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA12853 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:08:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA10351; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:02:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:58:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10057 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:58:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10053 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 20:58:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from firewall.ampsc.com (firewall.ampsc.com [207.102.161.117]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA18663; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:13:53 -0800 Message-ID: <34E79E6F.2166@ampsc.com> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:03:27 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Bower CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game/Healthy References: <34E70DA4.4140@bloomington.in.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2037 John Bower wrote: > > Marti Croal wrote (in part): > could the negative connotations (read bad PR) for those who aren't > > building healthy homes help to bring them into the fold? Or will they just > > keep fighting to keep the healthy homes out of the marketing showcases? > > > > Most likely, change will occur very slowly, but after a while, > conventional builders will say "Healthy houses? Oh, yeah, we've been > doing that for years." As an example, houses never used to have any > insulation, then they had a little, now many mainstream builders > actually are starting to do it right. Of course, it took an energy > crisis to change some minds. Will we need an environmental/health > crisis? It could be in the works.... We do have a crisis on our hands now, every improperly constructed, operated and maintained, if there is any maintenance, structure harbors mold, fungi, bacteria, viruses and other contaminations harmful to the health and safety of the occupants,especially our schools, homes and places of business. Working teachers, and other staff, in addition to the main occupancy,,,,,,the students. Considering the futures of our populations are held in the health and safety of our children, and their health and safety is in jeopardy, we do have a crisis on our hands now. Health and safety should be EVERYONE'S mainstream interest, for obvious reasons, and GreenBuilding should be mainstream also. What John has said is correct, it takes time to effect change, and proper regulations, compliance and enforcement, can and will speed up the shift to safe and healthy strucutures for us to occupy. I am many others, on and off of this list have started, it is up to us to make sure that proper regulations, compliance procedures and enforcement become a continuing standard practice. Richard. Eco-Systems Unlimited - Sustaining Safe and Healthy Occupancies Development Management, Building Systems Analysis, Indoor Air Environment Specialists, Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 15 21:57:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14448 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:57:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA24194 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:55:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12314; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:49:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:45:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12060 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:45:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12056 for ; Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:45:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sb8.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.169]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA02665 for ; Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:46:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34E5F35C.6495@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:41:16 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Name Game Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2038 Responsible is certainly a good possibilty, it doesn't seem to have much downside. A friend wrote in response to my posing our question to him: "The word you are looking for is HOME. It has all of the qualities that you mention, has the ultimate recognition factor and is not what people are currently (since ~1945) being offered by the marketplace." So perhaps for those in the housing end of this "Responsible Homebuilding" is the right choice. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 16 01:34:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA18017 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 01:34:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA19618 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 01:32:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA20419; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 01:26:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 01:22:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA20191 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 01:22:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA20187 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 01:22:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id BeC16954; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 01:27:18 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:05:28 -0700 Subject: GBlist:Name Game Message-ID: <19980215.230529.3438.0.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <2232832@lyme.valley.net> <34E78785.81CD0651@flash.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-4 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2039 Is Progressive Building already taken? just another middle fo the night thought Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 16 02:20:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA18694 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 02:20:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA27891 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 02:19:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA21904; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 02:13:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 02:09:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA21589 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 02:08:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA21581 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 02:08:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA02855 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 01:13:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-09.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.137) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma002802; Mon Feb 16 01:13:10 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980216021216.006fcba8@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 02:12:18 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: copyright schmopyright Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2040 I would suspect copyrighting "Healthy Housing" has about as much chance in succeeding as did "Smart House," which was rejected as too generic... (BH) But, I bet you could copyright "dumbhouse" -------------------- Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:00:58 -0800 From: R J Moore Subject: Re: GBlist: re: Name Game Robert W. Tom wrote: > CMHC can't copyright the label "Healthy Housing" can they ? Best source to answer that is the copyright departments in government. defined rights to use are what it is all about, there is an american company called Healthy Housing Institute. Richard. | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 16 10:18:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27253 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:18:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00452 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:16:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03206; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:10:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:05:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02859 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:05:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02843 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:05:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA17106; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:11:32 -0500 Message-id: <2270984@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 16 Feb 98 10:17:26 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Energy Conservation consultant To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: dragon@world.std.com, dksanda@aol.com, randers@ci.cambridge.ma.us Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2041 A friend who works for the city of cambridge, MA, asked me who I woud recommend to do energy conservation work for the city. Any suggestions? Please copy responses to Rosalie Anders (randers@ci.cambridge.ma.us). Thanks Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 16 10:43:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27805 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA06647 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:41:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04517; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:34:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:29:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04060 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:29:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04049 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:29:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (se14.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.47]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA00390 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:35:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34E85BA9.C47@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:30:49 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Smart Building on a large scale Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2042 Let me chum the waters once more. In this mornings Wired News, I came across an article on the Nat. Science Foundation's newest project, a think tank with the focus on infrastructure and how to improve it in the future. Specifically they are looking at ways to make systems smarter and more adaptable. Take a look: http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/10297.html My questions are: Can we offer them any input, can they offer us anything and how is this relevant to our discussions? Just chum for thought. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 16 11:16:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28527 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:16:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA15728 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:14:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06626; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:08:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:04:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA06306 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:04:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from dub-img-8.compuserve.com (dub-img-8.compuserve.com [149.174.206.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06301 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:04:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dub-img-8.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.10) id LAA21984 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:17:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:08:35 -0500 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: GBlist: Announcement: Sustainable Steel Conference To: GBList Message-ID: <199802161109_MC2-337F-187@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id LAA06303 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2043 YOU ARE INVITED TO ATTEND: SUSTAINABLE STEEL The International Conference on Steel in Green Building Construction March 18-21 Orlando, Florida A full conference brochure and registration information is posted on the web at: WWW.SUSTAINABLE-STEEL.COM The web site will soon be updated with conference abstracts and after the conference will include selected papers. For information contact: ssteelconf@aol.com or call: 1-202-347-8200 or fax: 1-202-393-5043 Sustainable Steel includes: OVER 70 SPEAKERS FROM 12 COUNTRIES IN 28 SESSIONS ATTENDEES AND EXHIBITORS FROM AROUND THE WORLD 3 TO 6 HOUR OPTIONAL FORUMS ON WEDNESDAY, MARCH 18 -Evaluating the Thermal Performance of Steel in Housing -Innovative Steel Systems for Commercial Buildings -Introduction to Residential Steel Framing Systems -Evaluating the Environmental Impacts of Steel -LCA Software Round Robin -A Tour of Orlando Steel Homes (also Saturday) -Steel on the Roof -Sustainable Construction Designs for the 2000 "Green" Olympics -Light Gauge Framing Design and Specification Software Round Robin (Saturday only) CORE CONFERENCE SESSIONS ON THURSDAY, MARCH 19, AND FRIDAY, MARCH 20 4 Plenary Sessions and 16 Concurrent Sessions in 4 Tracks: - Exploring the Principles of Environmentally Friendly Construction - State-of-the-Art Design and Engineering in Commercial Buildings - Light Gauge Steel Construction Solutions - The Future of Steel in Green Buildings FEATURED SPEAKERS INCLUDE: - David Berry (US), President's Council on Environmental Quality - Op den Brouw (Netherlands), Department of Economic Affairs - James Grose (Australia), Designer of the Olympic Experience Building for the 2000 Olympics - Chris Smith (UK) Ove Arup, Design Team for Europe's Tallest Building - Charles Kibert (US), Center for Construction and the Environment, Univ. Florida, Gainesville - Amanda Levete (UK), Future Systems - Lindsay Johnston (Australia), University of Newcastle - Stanley Rhodes (US), Scientific Certification Systems See you in sunny Orlando! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 16 11:29:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28960 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:29:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA19370 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:27:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07166; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:21:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:17:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA06838 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06834 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:16:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mnsinc.com (a0036.culpeper.mns.net [206.239.106.36]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA13242 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:22:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34E89214.E89853E0@mnsinc.com> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:23:02 -0800 From: khassan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: name game Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------913D9CE0CF035F420B06678D" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2044 --------------913D9CE0CF035F420B06678D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like Chuck's idea for a name. When I prepare vegetarian meals for my non-vegetarian friends they often ask what it is they're about to eat I simply reply food. What's important are the ingredients, the things that make it healthy and safe to eat. That said I need some input for removing tree thumps and brush from my drainfield in a way that is non-toxic and environmentally safe. I was strongly advised not use heavy equipment in the drainfield to remove the trees so I cut them. Once cleared I want to plant wildflowers and other grasses to attract birds and wildlife. Any suggestions? --------------913D9CE0CF035F420B06678D Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like Chuck's idea for a name.  When I prepare vegetarian meals for my non-vegetarian  friends they often ask what it is they're about to eat I simply reply food.  What's important are the ingredients, the things that make it  healthy and safe to eat.  That said I need some input for removing tree thumps and brush from my drainfield in a way that is non-toxic and environmentally safe.  I was strongly advised not use heavy equipment in the drainfield to remove the trees so I  cut them. Once cleared I want to plant wildflowers and other grasses to attract birds and wildlife.  Any suggestions? --------------913D9CE0CF035F420B06678D-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 16 12:00:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29769 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:00:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27900 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:58:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08449; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:48:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08102 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:48:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from saclink3.csus.edu (saclink3.csus.edu [130.86.82.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08098 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 11:48:12 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802161648.LAA08098@solstice.crest.org> Received: from PC-ANTHRO-04.mnh.csus.edu by saclink3.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA077028047; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:54:07 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "PE" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:28:51 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Smart Building on a large scale Reply-To: sac28787@saclink.csus.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2045 Chuck H wrote on an NSF think tank... >with the focus on infrastructure and how to improve it in the > future. Specifically they are looking at ways to make systems smarter > and more adaptable. Take a look: > http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/10297.html > Can we offer them any input, can they offer us anything and how is >this relevant to our discussions? Of course the approach is useful, though the higher-tech solutions may not be. It's one more case of designing for failure. When ice made those individualist power towers into the collective they really are, they failed. Individualist designers couldn't see the w/holes in their plans... Folks designing healthy, green, responsible eco-nests might once in a while do more than moan about lack of foresight in a previous generation of responsible, health-oriented, ecologically informed, lime green builders of developments. They might also, though this would be heresy, question the holy Market's ability to solve such problems before they arise. Pet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 16 12:46:32 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00911 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:46:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA11100 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:44:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10818; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:38:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:34:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA10310 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:34:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10301 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:34:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.43] (ua10.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.43]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA29647 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:40:17 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34E89214.E89853E0@mnsinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 12:46:38 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: name game Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2046 >That said I need some input for removing tree thumps and brush from my >drainfield in a way that is non-toxic and environmentally safe. I was >strongly advised not use heavy equipment in the drainfield to remove the >trees so I cut them. Once cleared I want to plant wildflowers and other >grasses to attract birds and wildlife. Any suggestions? Hi, Although the guy in me cries out for dynamite, I suppose that's not the best idea in a drain field (septic system?). In the past, I've sawed them down. The above grade protion of the trunk decays over the course of a few years. Buried roots remain intact for years. I can't think of a reason why that would be important. The things you plant depend on who you want to attract and where you live (climate and nearby habitats). For example, in the northeast, where the climate is good for fying squirrels, but white oaks are not generally a climax specie, planting a couple of white oaks at the edge will draw flying squirrels for miles. In the same location, if you want chick-a-dees, almost any old shrub will do. If you're in the states, I'd suggest contacting the local coop extension. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 16 14:06:53 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04930 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:06:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA05995 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14685; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:58:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:53:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14365 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:53:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14361 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:53:40 -0500 (EST) From: eloggie@erols.com Received: from tia.ab.umd.edu (207-172-150-130.s3.as10.anp.erols.com [207.172.150.130]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA01880 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:10:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34E88C33.7AE@erols.com> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:57:55 -0500 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: any port in a storm of names Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2047 The last thing you'd expect from the Department of Defense's acronym-infested lexicon is a sensible, jargon-free label for the concept of green architecture/sustainable design. But that's exactly what the USNavy NAVFAC's new facilities design guide's title gives us. And it's not even called something like "T.O.SDPF 123-XXX-O Design Guide, Building, Whole"! Nope, just "Whole Building Design Guide". Why not extract the deceptively simple core from this plain gray document's title? Those two words - "whole" and "building" - effectively subsume the entire complexity of what we wish the built environment to become. They should suffice to "sanitize" the more militant mainstream and fringe elements engaged in this consensus mission with a minimum of "collateral damage". (sorry for the smart-bomb tactic. . .must have "Operation Desert Blunder" on the brain) Gregg Freeman Hologistics Annapolis, MD ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 16 15:34:36 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09410 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:34:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA02561 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA19321; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:26:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:21:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18648 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:21:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18644 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:21:01 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PeK00282; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:23:42 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:18:27 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game Message-ID: <19980216.143629.3654.3.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <837dc401.34e6f5bc@aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-15 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2048 I have avoided this thread as long as I can. How about Ephemeral Intelligence? Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:03:38 EST Pbsustain@aol.com writes: >I think several people have made some good points but I don't think >we've >found a name that means what we would like it to mean and still be >able to >attract mainstream customers. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 16 15:35:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09422 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:35:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA02751 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:33:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA19467; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:27:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:22:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18776 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:22:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18763 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:22:08 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PeL00282; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:23:42 EST To: larry48@flash.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:34:05 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Orientation Issue ( L.Stivers version)] Message-ID: <19980216.143629.3654.4.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <2232832@lyme.valley.net> <34E78785.81CD0651@flash.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-21 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2049 In some parts of the country (South) it would be preferable to have a closed, well insulated wall facing the South and West and an open face to the North or East. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt >On the same thread, but with the choke set for a wider pattern, I'm >continually >amazed at the number of subdivisions that are planned out with >absolutely no >regard for solar orientation. A windowless wall might >face south with evergreens planted on the south side and disiduous >trees on the >north. The saddest part (and the primary reason the developers can >get away with >it) is that most homebuyers don't have a clue that it makes any >difference! _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 16 18:43:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA14501 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA28348 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:41:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA29200; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:35:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:30:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA28826 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:30:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28822 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:30:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id SLJ21822; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:35:21 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:13:26 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game Message-ID: <19980216.161339.3438.3.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <837dc401.34e6f5bc@aol.com> <19980216.143629.3654.3.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-5 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2050 Placemaking- ie Responsible placemaking or progressive placemaking Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 16 19:59:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA17460 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:59:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA21079 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:57:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA03873; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:51:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:47:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA03379 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:46:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-out-0.tiac.net (mail-out-0.tiac.net [199.0.65.247]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03374 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:46:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-out-4.tiac.net (mail-out-4.tiac.net [199.0.65.16]) by mail-out-0.tiac.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA28340 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:52:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from jseitz@studioecology.com) Received: from jseitz.tiac.net (p12.ts6.newyo.NY.tiac.com [207.60.65.205]) by mail-out-4.tiac.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA00269 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:52:43 GMT (envelope-from jseitz@studioecology.com) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980216195405.006a4a68@pop.tiac.net> X-Sender: jseitz@pop.tiac.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:54:05 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Seitz Subject: GBlist: Let's say what we mean Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2051 "Ecologically sustainable building" Sustainable by itself says nothing, I have no interest in sustaining the status quo. Environmental speaks only to the environment, which is what it is. Ecosystems are in a constant state of flux, but they are our life support. In essence we are all working to sustain our life support systems. John Seitz ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 16 21:35:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA20046 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:35:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA18570 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:34:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09526; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:28:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:24:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA09157 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from iceland.it.earthlink.net ([204.119.177.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09149 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:23:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from Cheetah (1Cust30.max11.santa-clara.ca.ms.uu.net [153.34.145.30]) by iceland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA28668 for ; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:29:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 18:29:41 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802170229.SAA28668@iceland.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: envdiv@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Michelle Randall Subject: GBlist: Green Building Consumer Magazine Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2052 Consumer-oriented media I really appreciated Bion's comments on a consumer oriented approach to marketing green building. I'm working on just this and right now I'm preparing for a meeting with a local TV station tomorrow morning, with the mutual goal of a green building spot on the morning show. As background, I was hired five months ago by a local (CA coast) lumber company to put together an environmental product line. Well I sure showed up 'green', spanking new MBA with a specialization in environmental management in my hip pocket and zero knowledge of the building materials industry. Practically every knowledgeable advisor has informed me that it will be impossible to push green building products into contractors' hands...yet lo and behold business seems to be taking shape. However, ultimate success is dependent on reaching end users and politicians via the media. My question is why do each of us find ourselves reinventing the marketing wheel? I ask myself how much more effective I could be in bringing green building into my markets if I had the experience of those on this list in some form so that I could build on it... Bion, I'm with you. What we need to create is the environmental equivalent of Sunset magazine, or like publications throughout the country. Magazines like this are very popular in Germany, showing very stylish and sensible green homes. Yes, formidable geographical and cultural differences make a one-fits-all proposal difficult for all to swallow, but couldn't the same arguments be used against national fashion magazines? Instead of just saying we'll get to work on this, I ask what forum shall we use to answer the who, what, where why, when and hows? I'm glad to facilitate. Michelle Randall -------------- Michelle Randall Hayward Lumber - Green Building Materials Division Manager 429 Front Street Salinas, CA 93940 Phone: 408/755-8805 Fax: 408/755-8814 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 00:46:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA26004 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:46:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA11163 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:44:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA16285; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:38:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:34:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA16057 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:34:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA16053 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:34:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.106.100] (usrts3p100.port.net [207.237.106.100]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA00700 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:39:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802170539.AAA00700@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Orientation Issue ( L.Stivers version)] Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 00:40:57 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2053 John Wilson Wrote: >The interesting thing is the lack of solar orientation. They did so much >right with >the Rastra panels and incredibly beautiful architecture and when it came >to solar >orientation - nothing! Both of these places (within a few lots of one >another) were >built on over 4 acres of land and their orientation was not restricted in >any way. It >just simply was not an issue. They "pointed" for views and that was it. > >This is so wasteful and a terrible mistake. I am sure the builders do not >want to >hear about this problem. They were each built by different folks by the >way. How can >we have come this far and yet so few take into account this issue. It >boggles the >mind! To further your point John, I watched the beginning of a new series of the " HomeTime" show on TV over the weekend. They also have featured a couple of very high_end ICF (Polysteel) projects in the past. But the first show in this new series focused on siting the new project on what appeared to be a sizable rural lot. During the full half hour on siting issues the words sun, or solar, or heat gain were not uttered once! The entire reasoning for orienting the house the way they did was view and only view. I was flabberghasted....... I guess something thats free has no place on commercial TV. PS- Seems ICF's hit the mainstream fast..... why do you suppose that is? Clarence ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 01:02:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA26769 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 01:02:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA15085 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 01:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA16713; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:53:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:50:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA16478 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:49:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net ([204.119.177.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA16474 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:49:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust140.tnt11.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.31.140]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA15763; Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:55:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E92556.376F@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:51:18 -0800 From: David Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Michelle Randall Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building Consumer Magazine References: <199802170229.SAA28668@iceland.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2054 Michelle Randall wrote: > > I really appreciated Bion's comments on a consumer oriented approach to > marketing green building... > Bion, I'm with you. What we need to create is the environmental equivalent > of Sunset magazine, or like publications throughout the country... > Instead of just saying we'll get to work on this, I ask what forum shall we > use to answer the who, what, where why, when and hows? I'm glad to facilitate. > Michelle: Seems to me that the place to start is with the flashy high-end stuff. I am amazed at the number of rammed-earth projects going on in the Bay Area these days, especially in affluent Marin County. I know, this is exactly the dilemma so many of us are asking: can we find a way to bring ecologically-sustainable building to the masses, not just the frills and fads of the wealthy. It really isn'y sustainable, just green-looking technology, but it is a gateway. Once enough "40 Greens under 40" or the like make it into enough board rooms and designer offices and book stores, trends will move among the wealthy and power class. Not long ago big kitchen remodels were for the upper cut only; now anyone with a small budget can walk into a Home Depot and do a whole kitchen remodel, design & purchase. I think that starting with the Fancy Green and creating a whole genre acceptable in the wider AIA realms will go a long way to establishing this as mainstream. Sounds hauntingly like trickle-down economics, doesn't it? To contradict myself, I am still convinced that all this name-game stuff and how do we get mainstream still misses the underlying point that we are facing a deep crisis of spirit. The very system we are trying to break into is intrinsically unsustainable because it reduces life to transactions of consumption; Sacredness has ceased to hold Center. No wheel can turn without a center, and no system without cycling can be sustained. The Jeffersonian image of joining the majority and slowly turning the ship is futile. That's really what happened to the "revolution" of the 60's - the mainstream co-opted it, it became commercial, it joined the linear mentality and (frustratingly) we are all a part of it. So there, take your pick. My first thought assumes that we have to work within our extant faulty system; the second is the deeper vision that is bewildered and awed. Good luck in your work! Seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 07:02:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA10084 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 07:02:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA27724 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 07:01:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA23734; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 06:54:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 06:50:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA23504 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 06:50:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA23500 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 06:50:23 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4LIHa08253 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 06:56:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6094c39d.34e97ae4@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 06:56:17 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building Consumer Magazine Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2055 In a message dated 98-02-16 21:31:38 EST, Michelle wrote: << Yes, formidable geographical and cultural differences make a one-fits-all proposal difficult for all to swallow, but couldn't the same arguments be used against national fashion magazines? Instead of just saying we'll get to work on this, I ask what forum shall we use to answer the who, what, where why, when and hows? I'm glad to facilitate. >> What you describe sounds like the new Environmental Design & Construction magazine which recently sent its inaugural issue to more than 18,000 architects, designers, etc. Its tag line is The Magazine for Successful Building--Economically and Environmentally. I'm curious as to how many people on this list have seen it and what they think. I also noted a recent AP/Chicago Tribune report on a large national trade show highlighted two environmental/sustainable items. Phil Bailey SustainAbility ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 08:35:44 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA15900 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:35:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA15263 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:34:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25817; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:27:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:24:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA25581 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:23:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA25577 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:23:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.20] (blf20.acadia.net [205.217.217.20]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA01236 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:29:48 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:27:43 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building Consumer Magazine Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2056 Phil Bailey wrote: What you describe sounds like the new Environmental Design & Construction magazine which recently sent its inaugural issue to more than 18,000 architects, designers, etc. Its tag line is The Magazine for Successful Building--Economically and Environmentally. I'm curious as to how many people on this list have seen it and what they think. end of quote My business partner Sarah and I have seen the magazine. Its content was good, and it was very well produced. It will probably help to promote Green building to more mainstream designers, builders and customers. After seeing only one issue, we felt a strong preference for Environmental Building News, and a key reason was advertising. Environmental Design and Construction accepts ads, some of which were from companies touting how Green they are, when they're not. We feel that by not accepting ads, Environmental Building News maintains credibility as an objective source of information. Not to say that ED&C isn't objective, but that advertising might shape editorial decisions. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 08:58:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA16859 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:58:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA19957 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:56:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26772; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:50:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:46:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26452 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:46:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26448 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:46:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from usr0a4.wrj.sover.net (usr0a4.wrj.sover.net [206.25.69.194]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA01213; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:52:14 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: pike.sover.net: usr0a4.wrj.sover.net [206.25.69.194] didn't use HELO protocol Message-ID: <34E926FA.7761@sover.net> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 21:58:18 -0800 From: Andrea Warchaizer Reply-To: springpt@sover.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Environmental Design and Construction Magazine References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2057 David Foley et al, For those of us who haven't seen the new "Environmental Design & Construction", is there a number we can call to get a copy of the first issue? Thanks, Andrea Warchaizer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 09:14:36 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17370 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:14:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA24058 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:12:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27829; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:06:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:02:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27396 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:02:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from stingray.bwbr.com (stingray.bwbr.com [206.147.245.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27392 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:02:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from stephanie.bwbr.com (sm5173.bwbr.com [206.147.245.60]) by stingray.bwbr.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29774; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:07:21 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802171407.IAA29774@stingray.bwbr.com> From: "Stephanie McDaniel" To: , "David M. Foley" Cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: Environmental Design and Construction Magazine Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:10:55 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2058 Finally, something I can help this group with.... Environmental Design & Construction seems to be published bimonthly. Right now it is a free subscription (advertising does have some benefits). To receive a subscription send your name and address to: Environmental Design & Construction P.O. Box 3304 Northbrook, IL 60065-9514 I don't see a web site or email address in this month's issue. __________________________________________ Stephanie McDaniel BWBR Architects 400 Sibley Street Suite 500 St. Paul, Minnesota 55101 USA 612.290.1872 smcdaniel@bwbr.com http://www.bwbr.com ---------- From: Andrea Warchaizer To: David M. Foley Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Environmental Design and Construction Magazine Date: Monday, February 16, 1998 11:58 PM David Foley et al, For those of us who haven't seen the new "Environmental Design & Construction", is there a number we can call to get a copy of the first issue? Thanks, Andrea Warchaizer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 09:15:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17417 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:15:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA24287 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:13:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27924; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:03:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27463 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27457 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:03:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.162.253.94] (d74.best1.net [205.162.253.94]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA10350 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 06:09:20 -0800 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 06:09:37 -0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: Environmental Design and Construction Magazine Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2059 >David Foley et al, >For those of us who haven't seen the new "Environmental Design & >Construction", is there a number we can call to get a copy of the first >issue? >Thanks, >Andrea Warchaize ED&C PO Box 3304 Northbrook IL 60065 847 291 5224 Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 09:32:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA19580 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:32:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA28425 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:31:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28963; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:25:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:21:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28675 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:21:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28670 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:21:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sd8.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.233]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA26033 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:27:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34E99D17.9B7@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:22:15 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Mainstream Fishing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2060 Seth, I agree with your trickle down theory (how's that for the kiss of death?), the appeal of the high end show piece can't be over looked , upward mobility is an inherent trait in our species and if we can change the focus of that envy, we can make a positive impact (that's gonna piss some people off). People need to be lead to change and that usually requires capital and that is in the hands of the wealthy. They love to publicize their stature and are often willing to finance their own publicity. Phil's reference to Environmental Design and Construction is interesting but are the design professionals really the only ones we are talking about mainstreaming? This needs to be a publication that attracts a wide and diverse audience, one that speaks to the "average homebuyer" about a large range of issues, all with the central theme of changing habits. There seems to be a growing interest on the Mainstream magazine here in this list. Is there a consensus that this is worth exploring? Seth wrote: "To contradict myself, I am still convinced that all this name-game stuff and how do we get mainstream still misses the underlying point that weare facing a deep crisis of spirit. The very system we are trying to break into is intrinsically unsustainable because it reduces life to transactions of consumption; Sacredness has ceased to hold Center. No wheel can turn without a center, and no system without cycling can be sustained. The Jeffersonian image of joining the majority and slowly turning the ship is futile. That's really what happened to the "revolution" of the 60's - the mainstream co-opted it, it became commercial, it joined the linear mentality and (frustratingly) we are all a part of it." The following is written mostly tongue in cheek, so please don't take it too much to heart. If you think the Jeffersonian model is futile, what do you perceive the problems with spritual awakening might be? Or is this more a call to arms, the second revolution? I am by the way still flying my freak flag and am not convinced that the sixties revolution is over. I think what is happening right here is still a vestige of it. The notion that a global political/spiritual awakening is going to sweep over us, seems much more remote and requires a much longer timetable. Look at the span of time any major political or religious doctrine requires to impact the population of this planet. In the mean time shouldn't we attempt to effect as much change in the present system as we can. If your going to dance with the devil, be the one to call the tune. What are the alternatives? Seth, I do sincerely understand your point and do agree that the deeper issue of how we behave on this planet is the paramount question. I'm just not convinced that the epiphany is on the way, at least not on a timetable that will matter. Awaiting the epiphany Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 09:41:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA20240 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:41:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA00530 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:40:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29465; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:33:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:29:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA29124 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.167]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA29120 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:29:41 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4HCOa03057 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:35:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8ebb909e.34e9a031@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:35:27 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Environmental Design and Construction Magazine Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2061 In a message dated 98-02-17 08:54:10 EST, you write: << David Foley et al, For those of us who haven't seen the new "Environmental Design & Construction", is there a number we can call to get a copy of the first issue? Thanks, Andrea Warchaizer _ >> Email is EnvDC@aol.com. Editor is jsailer@aol.com and phone is 201-291-9001. To David's comments re: Environmental Building News. I prefer EBN as well for the same lack of advertising, but I did find the first issue of EDC to be along the lines of what has been discussed here. Content was pretty good. Phil ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 10:07:36 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20953 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:07:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA06912 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:05:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00915; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:59:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:55:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA00564 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:55:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo26.mail.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00552 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:55:26 -0500 (EST) From: Marcoplos@aol.com Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id IIHTa25301; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:00:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <37c92ad.34e9a604@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:00:18 EST To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Mainstream Fishing Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2062 It occurs to me that energy-efficient daylit schools are showing a lot of consumers (who ordinarily would not be exposed to such info) the benefits of green building. The fact that test scores are higher and attendance is up at these schools is a big attention-grabber and circumvents the tired anti- environmental propaganda that we always have to muck through. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 10:32:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22743 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:32:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA13443 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:30:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02305; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:23:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:19:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01936 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:19:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp4.nwnexus.com (smtp4.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01931 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:18:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.63.41.52] (blv-lx103-ip2.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.52]) by smtp4.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA10069 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 07:24:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 07:24:46 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: obrien@mail.halcyon.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "O'Brien & Company" Subject: GBlist: Data on Green Schools Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2063 Looking for hard data on increased attendance, reduced illness, improved performance (such as higher test scores). Anyone have references? case studies? Kathleen O'Brien ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 12:50:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01075 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:50:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA23605 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:48:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09518; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:42:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:37:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08834 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:37:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08826 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:37:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MkU28780; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:40:49 EST To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:31:08 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game Message-ID: <19980217.124037.9118.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <34E5F35C.6495@dreamscape.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-25,27,29,31-35 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2064 On Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:41:16 -0500 Chuck Hinckley writes: >Responsible is certainly a good possibilty, it doesn't seem to have >much >downside. A friend wrote in response to my posing our question to him: >"The word you are looking for is HOME. >It has all of the qualities that you mention, has the ultimate >recognition >factor and is not what people are currently (since ~1945) being >offered >by >the marketplace." > >So perhaps for those in the housing end of this "Responsible >Homebuilding" is the right choice. > >Chuck >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > >Chuck, I disagree strongly - there is more to building than homes. What about factories, offices, stores etc. Can we afford to build environmental homes but continue to work, shop , or educate our children in "standard" buildings? I think not. Beverly Environs Interiors Inc. Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 12:50:15 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01084 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:50:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA23673 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:48:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09498; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:41:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:36:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08735 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:36:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08729 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:36:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MkV28780; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:40:49 EST To: goldeneagle1@juno.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:34:26 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist:Name Game Message-ID: <19980217.124037.9118.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <2232832@lyme.valley.net> <19980215.230529.3438.0.goldeneagle1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-19,21,23,25-29 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2065 On Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:05:28 -0700 goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) writes: >Is Progressive Building already taken? just another middle fo the >night thought >Samantha M. >Holistic Homeplaces >Denver, CO >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get >completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno >at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > Samantha, I don't know about progressive building, but I would shy away from it since the AIA has a magazine called "Progressive Architecture" which includes "business as usual" design in addition to some environmental principles. I wouldn't want the two to be confused. Beverly Environs Interiors Inc. Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 12:52:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01139 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:52:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA24325 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:50:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09787; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:44:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:40:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09139 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:39:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.142]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09124 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:39:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin123.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.133]) by hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_12836)/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA04873; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:44:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34E9CC79.A2F@uidaho.edu> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 09:44:25 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "O'Brien & Company" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Data on Green Schools References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2066 Hi Kathleen, Check out the Nov/Dec '95 issue of Solar Today. There's an article on the Durant Middle School, a daylit school in Raleigh NC designed by Innovative Design (also Raleigh) and written by Burke Miller Thayer. He talks indirectly about how the environment is more conducive to learning and says "Studies have shown that natural lighting has a positive effect on student attitudes and performance." Perhaps you can contact Mr. Thayer for more specifics/sources through ASES 2400 Central Ave., Unit G-1, Boulder, CO 80301 (303) 443-3130. Kurt Rathmann Moscow, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 12:59:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01552 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:59:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA26455 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:57:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10322; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:51:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:47:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09913 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:46:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09907 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:46:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sc3.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.196]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA19458 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:53:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34E9CD5B.5A9D@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 12:48:11 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Name Game Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2067 Beverly, No arguement from me. Perhaps you didn't catch what I actually said: >So perhaps for those in the housing end of this "Responsible >Homebuilding" is the right choice. That didn't mean to the exclusion of all other forms of construction, just that for those in the homebuilding field, this might be a right choice. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 13:18:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA02158 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:18:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA02545 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:16:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11484; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:10:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:06:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA11129 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:05:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11121 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:05:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NzF28780; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:06:02 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:06:19 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Wheatboard Message-ID: <19980217.130622.11782.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,6-8,11-13,15-22 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2068 To GB listers, I am trying to locate contact information and need your help. I already know about Primeboard's product, Wheatboard. The problem is that they do not have a distribution setup for the South. When I tried to buy some for a job the freight was prohibitive. I have been told that a Canadian firm is making a very similar product and that they may already have a distribution agreement for this area, or at least near enough to ameliorate the freight charges. Does anyone know 1. the name of the Canadian firm 2. how to contact them and 3. who is distributing the product? Thanks for any help. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Inc. Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 14:28:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA05910 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA22876 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:27:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15489; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:20:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:16:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15001 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:16:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14996 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:16:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (se20.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.53]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA13443 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:22:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34E9E245.5BEA@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:17:25 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: Smart Building on a large scale] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2069 Return-Path: Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA07136 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:02:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from 204.96.104.50 (xyp33p19.navix.net [204.96.104.50]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA29658; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:49:39 -0600 Message-ID: <34E86348.7937@navix.net> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:03:22 +0000 From: Joyce Coppinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-Navix (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Smart Building on a large scale References: <34E85BA9.C47@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First reaction is the think tank should be thinking about ways to reduce the amount of concrete used in highway building, consider ways to reduce the cost of highway construction, think of ways to reduce the need for highways by changing our transportation system to include "space age" vehicles, new high speed transit systems, new energy sources (not gas and oil) to fuel vehicles, better air transportation system. Deregulation and subsidies have ruined U.S. transportation systems, so maybe we can take a step back and look at where we are and how we got there before we try to project to the future -- but after we look at what didn't work, let's encourage everyone to be CREATIVE and INNOVATIVE in developing the future. That means that industry people are going to have to give up the past and look to the future! Secondly, eliminate all telephone poles and wires above-ground i.e., electrical connections from power source to user so that maintenance costs created by storms and natural catastrophes is reduced (if that's feasible). Solar, wind, photovoltaics and any other alternative sources for power should be fully integrated into all nationwide infrastructure systems. There is a place for something besides coal and oil and gas. There is a place for biomass energy which would aid agricultural diversification and provide annually renewable resources for power production. Wireless communications should be advanced in the priority listing to help rural telecommunications development and any other applications for wireless which are feasible and economical (over the long-term, not upfront because there will be R&D and conversion costs, I suppose). The U.S. should be wired electronically for telecommunications so that everyone has access -- or we will develop into a have and have not society more than we already are becoming. This is key and critical to our society's future! Hopefully our water nationwide is not so polluted and fouled that we can't improve it. Manufacturers are startubg to develop and produce washers (clothes, dishes) requiring less water. This should become the norm, not the alternative or exception. Same's true for toilets and showers and tubs and lavatories. Encouraging people to think green with xeriscaping and not overwatering their landscapes to produce expansive green lawns and green spaces will make a dramatic impact on water system depletion. Introduction of crops requiring less irrigation could produce buildable materials with less water usage (kenaf, hemp, for example) and would help diversify agriculture, too. Plant research for all types of energy uses should be given a priority rating. There's enough conversation, idea sharing, visionary thinking on the greenbuilders list to keep this think tank in business to the millenium and beyond! Joyce Chuck Hinckley wrote: > > Let me chum the waters once more. In this mornings Wired News, I came > across an article on the Nat. Science Foundation's newest project, a > think tank with the focus on infrastructure and how to improve it in the > future. Specifically they are looking at ways to make systems smarter > and more adaptable. Take a look: > http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/10297.html > > My questions are: Can we offer them any input, can they offer us > anything and how is this relevant to our discussions? Just chum for > thought. > > Chuck > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 14:36:48 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06683 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:36:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA24950 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:35:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA16220; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:28:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:24:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15799 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:24:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc513.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15795 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:24:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from IEL#u#MAIL-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:33:40 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:33:11 -0500 From: Arnie Katz To: greenbuilding@crest.org, obrien@halcyon.com Subject: GBlist: Data on Green Schools -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2070 Mike Nicklas and Gary Baily presented paper at ASES in 96. I'm on the road & don't have my roladex handy, but you can reach them at Innovative Design in Raleigh, NC.Gary will be presenting update at the Southeastern Green Bldg. Confereence in Greensboro, NC, March 2-4. Arnie Katz >>> "O'Brien & Company" 02/17/98 10:24am >>> Looking for hard data on increased attendance, reduced illness, improved performance (such as higher test scores). Anyone have references? case studies? Kathleen O'Brien ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 14:54:21 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA07891 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:54:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA00068 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:52:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA17806; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:46:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:42:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA17389 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:42:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA17383 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA09791 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:48:15 -0500 Message-id: <2288131@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 17 Feb 98 14:54:13 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Non-toxic carpet To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2071 A good friend wants to put carpet in her bedroom and living room. This is NOT a wall-to-wall installation - but the bulk of each room will be carpet. My experience is in selecting carpet for commercial/institutional clients, not homes. I can't envision Collins & Aikman or Interface products for this home application (she is definitely not looking for carpet tile, for instance), but perhaps GBListers will teach me otherwise. 1) what is the best choice for non-toxic carpet - natural fiber or synthetic? 2) if the answer to 1) is natural fiber, who makes them without pesticides, etc.? 3) what brand names are available, especially in the northeast? where to order? Please no lectures about the evil of carpet - this wouldn't be my choice, but my friend is going to get carpets, and I want to help her to make the best choice. Thank you Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 15:59:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA11079 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:59:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA09363 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 15:58:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18733; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:53:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:49:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA17940 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA17935 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:48:54 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OHP15954; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:51:58 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:02:04 -0600 Subject: GBlist: HVAC reincarnated Message-ID: <19980217.140447.3926.3.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <2232832@lyme.valley.net> <19980217.124037.9118.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-7,11-12,14-23 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2072 Just to kick another dead horse - in reference to a recent lengthy thread concerning HVAC sizing and loading I found a new source of info: HVAC Principles and Applications Manual Thomas Muli McCraw Hill Publishing $69.95 plus shipping This book contains step by step tables, charts, procedures and examples to use to calculate heating and cooling loads, size and select air distribution units, design duct systems and build fan and central air systems. Be advised, for those luddites fearful of technology it also contains a section on controls and thermostats. Happy reading! Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 17:25:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15479 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:25:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA04911 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:23:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA28166; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:17:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:11:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA27467 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:11:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27460 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.65] (uc0.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.65]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA03734 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:17:38 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:24:04 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building Consumer Magazine Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2073 >My business partner Sarah and I have seen the magazine. Its content was >good, and it was very well produced. It will probably help to promote >Green building to more mainstream designers, builders and customers. After >seeing only one issue, we felt a strong preference for Environmental >Building News, and a key reason was advertising. Environmental Design and >Construction accepts ads, some of which were from companies touting how >Green they are, when they're not. We feel that by not accepting ads, >Environmental Building News maintains credibility as an objective source of >information. Not to say that ED&C isn't objective, but that advertising >might shape editorial decisions. > >David Foley I strongly second this. Over the years I've subscribed to a couple hundred journals. When it comes to digging a few layers deeper, I find EBN is better than most and as good as the best. When it comes to thinking broadly and deeply, I find EBN is without peer. When it comes to where can I get it, how much does it cost, how do I put it together, ... I guess you catch my drift. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 17:46:30 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA16994 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:46:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA11317 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:44:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA29250; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:38:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:34:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA28929 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:34:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net ([204.119.177.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28906 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:34:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from Cheetah (1Cust157.tnt29.sfo3.da.uu.net [208.255.80.157]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA10060 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:40:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:40:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802172240.OAA10060@denmark.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: envdiv@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Michelle Randall Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building Consumer Magazine Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2074 Hi Phil, Environmental Design & Construction is a trade magazine and what I'm proposing is a publication similar to Better Homes & Gardens, for those who are unfamiliar with Sunset. Michelle >At 06:56 AM 2/17/98 EST, you wrote: >>In a message dated 98-02-16 21:31:38 EST, Michelle wrote: >> >><< Yes, formidable geographical and cultural differences make a one-fits-all >> proposal difficult for all to swallow, but couldn't the same arguments be >> used against national fashion magazines? >> Instead of just saying we'll get to work on this, I ask what forum shall we >> use to answer the who, what, where why, when and hows? I'm glad to >>facilitate. >> >> >> >>What you describe sounds like the new Environmental Design & Construction >>magazine which recently sent its inaugural issue to more than 18,000 >>architects, designers, etc. Its tag line is The Magazine for Successful >>Building--Economically and Environmentally. I'm curious as to how many people >>on this list have seen it and what they think. >> >>I also noted a recent AP/Chicago Tribune report on a large national trade show >>highlighted two environmental/sustainable items. >> >>Phil Bailey >>SustainAbility >>______________________________________________________________________ >>This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >>Environmental Building News and Oikos >>For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >>______________________________________________________________________ >> >> >> > -------------- Michelle Randall Hayward Lumber - Green Building Materials Division Manager 429 Front Street Salinas, CA 93940 Phone: 408/755-8805 Fax: 408/755-8814 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 18:38:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA20520 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:38:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA27572 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:37:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02341; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:31:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:26:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA01985 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:26:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA01980 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:26:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.55 (pm1-23.hoosier.net [206.106.67.55]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA26182; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:31:49 -0500 Message-ID: <34EA1DD6.4E3@bloomington.in.us> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:31:34 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Non-toxic carpet References: <2288131@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2075 Marc: Pick a carpet with little odor (imperfect advice because some outgassing has no odor) then send a sample to Anderson Labs (802-295-7344) and have them evaluate it by exposing test mice. Don't use adhesive. Be careful of pads too. Get a central vacuum. John -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 19:15:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21523 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:15:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA00526 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:13:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA03846; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:07:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:03:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA03480 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:03:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.uscomm.net (root@ns2.uscomm.net [207.122.238.211]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03476 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:03:36 -0500 (EST) From: jorange@CUNINGHAM.COM Received: from ntmail.cuningham.com (mail.cuningham.com [205.183.35.245]) by mail.uscomm.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA15781 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:11:14 -0600 Received: (from Administrator@localhost) by ntmail.cuningham.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id SAA00208; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:07:34 -0600 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:07:34 -0600 Message-Id: <199802180007.SAA00208@ntmail.cuningham.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: recycled aggregate X-Mailer: MailNet 4.10 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2076 Does any one have a source for concrete block, cast in place, or pre-cast concrete that uses recycled aggregate? I do not mean aggregate that has been washed from still wet cement. I mean aggregate that either contains some hardened cement or is a recycled material (such as glass). ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 19:18:53 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21833 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:18:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA01440 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:17:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA04298; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:11:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:06:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA03710 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:06:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.uscomm.net (root@ns2.uscomm.net [207.122.238.211]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03703 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:06:45 -0500 (EST) From: jorange@CUNINGHAM.COM Received: from ntmail.cuningham.com (mail.cuningham.com [205.183.35.245]) by mail.uscomm.net (8.7.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA15786 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:14:23 -0600 Received: (from Administrator@localhost) by ntmail.cuningham.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id SAA00234; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:10:43 -0600 Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:10:43 -0600 Message-Id: <199802180010.SAA00234@ntmail.cuningham.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: deconstruction X-Mailer: MailNet 4.10 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2077 Does anyone know of any specifications written expressly for deconstruction/disassaembly? Has anyone seen any desgin guidelines written for designing for disassembly? (other than general advice such as using mechanical fasteners, etc.) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 20:26:53 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA25032 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:26:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA02972 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:25:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA07229; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:06:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:02:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA06926 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:02:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from AICS.NET (mail.aics.net [209.21.198.2] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06922 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:02:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.21.198.45] ([209.21.198.45]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 2887300 ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:14:01 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:16:24 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: GB List: New Env'l Building mag. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2078 Environmental Building and Design magazine should improve as it builds readership, advertisers (income!) and writers. The next issue will highlight flooring. Check out my article on bamboo as a construction material! Carol Steinfeld ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 20:26:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA25038 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:26:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA02981 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:25:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05776; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:35:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:31:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05208 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:31:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05197 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:31:24 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id UATQa05030; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:37:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <553aa647.34ea2d33@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:37:05 EST To: jorange@CUNINGHAM.COM Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: recycled aggregate Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2079 In a message dated 98-02-17 19:11:33 EST, you write: << Does any one have a source for concrete block, cast in place, or pre-cast concrete that uses recycled aggregate? I do not mean aggregate that has been washed from still wet cement. I mean aggregate that either contains some hardened cement or is a recycled material (such as glass). >> You may be able to find this item by checking locally in your area. Aggregate suppliers in your area (ye old yellow pages may be an easy way). Your county recycling office (if you have one) may be a source of help. Concrete suppliers may be able to help (just ask). I also suggest you spec cement that uses coal fly ash. Fly ash is a by product of the utility industry and strengthens cement as well as shortens drying time. Phil Bailey SustainAbility ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 20:26:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA25043 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:26:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA02988 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:25:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05640; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:34:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:30:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05062 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05058 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:29:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA17997; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:35:20 -0800 Message-ID: <34EA2BFA.230AC89B@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:31:54 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Non-toxic carpet References: <2288131@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2080 Hi Mark I spent a little time chasing sisal and a few other fibres. Interestingly enough some of the products I liked were for commercial applications. Sisal grown in africa, Belgium processed. The problem was I couldn't get much information on coatings and most of the materials were complete with foam pads etc. I was looking for a softer sisal or sisal/wool blend which I knew were available but at the time difficult to obtain here. Here are some links that might be interesting http://www.designerrug.com/ http://www.naturalrug.com/ One of the interesting things about sisal is that it does not seem to support mold or fungal growth (left a piece on a very damp concrete floor in our shop and it seemed to confirm this). Might find some more info. on this at. http://www.utexas.edu/depts/bbr/natfiber/rsch.html Somebody made a remark about synth(polyester) and wool fibres as being bad for cat allergen. My general advice about area rugs has less to do with materials than origin and type of manufacture. I've recommended that people invest in rugs as collateral/hierloom (extends its value care and usage) and also supports generally a better circumstance of manufacture. (less chance of little kids knubbing their finger to the bone.) People are often concerned with cost of such a rug (they can increase in value more than most investments) but generally if you look at the area that is not covered with furnishings etc. the rugs can become smaller (and more precious) and less of a sink for contaminants. In my dutch heritage (lovers of thick carpets, on tables, floors, wherever) a springtime activity as a child was hanging them outside (in the sun) and beating them with these weird things that looked like cane tennis rackets. Hopefully useful or entertaining. Best John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > A good friend wants to put carpet in her bedroom and living room. This is NOT > a wall-to-wall installation - but the bulk of each room will be carpet. > > My experience is in selecting carpet for commercial/institutional clients, not > homes. I can't envision Collins & Aikman or Interface products for this home > application (she is definitely not looking for carpet tile, for instance), but > perhaps GBListers will teach me otherwise. > > 1) what is the best choice for non-toxic carpet - natural fiber or synthetic? > > 2) if the answer to 1) is natural fiber, who makes them without pesticides, > etc.? > > 3) what brand names are available, especially in the northeast? where to > order? > > Please no lectures about the evil of carpet - this wouldn't be my choice, but > my friend is going to get carpets, and I want to help her to make the best > choice. > > Thank you > > Marc Rosenbaum > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 21:12:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA28349 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:12:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA06354 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:10:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA10790; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:03:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:59:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10405 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:59:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10401 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:59:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id UDC05833; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:55:31 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:27:03 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Lisa Vanderbilt : A True Valentine's Day Story Message-ID: <19980217.183339.3438.5.goldeneagle1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-62 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2081 I realize this is off the greensubject, but it touched me so much i wanted to share it with you all: go ahead- scold me if you will. Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO John Blanchard stood up from the bench, straightened his Army uniform, and studied the crowd of people making their way through Grand Central Station. He looked for the girl whose heart he knew, but whose face he didn't, the girl with the rose. His interest in her had begun thirteen months before in a Florida library. Taking a book off the shelf, he found himself intrigued, not with the words of the book, but with the notes penciled in the margin. The soft writing reflected a thoughtful soul and insightful mind. In the front of the book, he discovered the previouse owner's name, Miss Hollis Maynell. With time and effort, he located her address. She lived in New York City. He wrote her a letter introducing himself and inviting her to correspond. The next day he was shipped overseas for service in World War II. During the next year and one month, the two grew to know each other through the mail. Each letter was a seed falling on a fertile heart. A romance was budding. Blanchard requested a photograph, but she refused. She felt that if he really cared, it wouldn't matter what she looked like. When the day finally came for him to return from Europe, they scheduled their first meeting - 7:00 pm at the Grand Central Station in New York. "You'll recognize me," she wrote, "by the red rose I'll be wearing on my lapel." So at 7:00 he was in the station looking for a girl whose heart he loved, but whose face he'd never seen. I'll let Mr. Blanchard tell you what happened: A young woman was coming toward me, her figure long and slim. Her blonde hair lay back in curls from her delicate ears; her eyes were blue as flowers. her lips and chin had a gentle firmness, and in her pale greeen suite she was like springtime come alive. I started toward her, entirely forgetting to notice that she was not wearing a rose. As I moved, a small, provacative smile curved her lips. "Going my way sailor?" she murmured. Almost uncontrollably I made one step closer to her, and then I saw Hollis Maynell. She was staning almost directly behind the girl. A woman well past 40, she had graying hair tucked under a worn hat... She was more than plump, her thick-ankled feet thrust into low-heled shoes. The girl in the green suite was walking away quickly. I felt as though I was split in two, so keen was my desire to follow her, and yet so deep was my longing for the woman whose spirit had truly companioned me and upheld my own. And there she stood. Here pale, plump face was gentle and sensible, her gray eyes had a warm and kindly twinkle. I did not hesitate. My fingers gripped the small worn blue leather copy of the book that was to identify me to her. This would not be love, but it would be something precious, something perhaps even better than love, a friendship for which I had been and must ever be grateful. I squared my shoulders and saluted and held out the book to the woman, even though while I spoke, I felt choked by the bitterness of my disappointment. "I'm Lieutenant John Blanchard, and you mjust be Miss Maynell. I am so glad you could meet me; may I take you to dinner?" The woman's face broadened into a tolerant smile. "I don't know what this is about son," she answered, "but the young lady in the green suit who just went by, she begged me to wear this rose on my coat. And she siad if you were to ask me out to dinner, I should go and tell you that she is waiting for you in the big restaurant across the street. She said it was some kind of test!" It's not tdifficult to understand and admire Miss Maynell's wisdom. The true nature of a heart is seen in its response to the unattractive. "Tell me whom you love," Houssaye wrote, "And I will tell you who you are." _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 21:36:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29074 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA13872 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:34:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12669; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:28:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:24:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12355 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:24:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12351 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:24:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa2-p61.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.61]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id VAA16789 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:30:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34EA46B6.1631@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:25:58 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Smart building on a large scale Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2082 Joyce, Fred's right, your response was perfect, now how do we get it to the NSF thinkers? Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 21:42:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29230 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:42:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA16703 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:40:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA13035; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:34:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:30:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12769 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:30:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12765 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:30:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.32] (blf32.acadia.net [205.217.217.32]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA18505 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:36:00 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:33:55 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: From John Sailer and EDC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id VAA12766 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2083 From: Jsailer@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:54:51 EST To: dmfoley@acadia.net Cc: DanMcQuill@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: regarding your post on the greenbuilding list Dear David: It's nice to see people talking about our new magazine, Environmental Design & Construction. I did, however, want to comment on the fact that you feel advertising will influence our advertising. The following is a column I wrote for EDC. I think it states how I am also concerned that I don't want to allow advertising to influence our editorial, and I look forward to allowing our readers to also judge this fact as they receive our magazine every other month. Thanks for your comments. You're welcome to share this with the green building list if you see fit. Spreading the Message of Eco-Building Welcome to the inaugural issue of Environmental Design & Construction, the first trade magazine on "green building." Our prototype issue was published in September of last year, mailed to a select few thousand, and distributed at environmental building trade shows in Austin, Miami, Washington, DC, Denver, Vancouver, British, Seattle, and elsewhere. Everyone had the same response ñ the time is now for a magazine on this subject, and the content is right on target. This, our inaugural issue, is being sent to our entire subscription list of 18,000 architects, interior designers, contractors, owners, specifying engineers and others, as well as distributed to attendees of the National Association of Home Builders trade show. Our goal is to create a publication that covers the entire range of environmental building, from design through construction, both commercial and residential, from cradle to grave to cradle again. A trade magazine that takes advertising and offers free subscriptions does, however, appear to be a new concept to this once grassroots industry that has now gone mainstream. A number of potential subscribers weíve met at the seemingly constant trade shows in which we participated last fall seemed surprised when we told them that the subscriptions were free. We explained that it is the fact that we take advertising that enables us to deliver the message of green building to so many in the design and construction fields -- not to mention the pass along readership, which is likely to be high in an industry that reuses rather than discards. Unfortunately, some became skeptical when they learned that it is advertising that supports us. They fear that we will be biased and allow those who back us to tell us what to write. But this is simply not the case. Our skeptics should realize that reporting the facts -- rather than just what our advertisers want us to write -- is not only ethically correct but fiscally appropriate as well, and the following explains why: I have told the team that puts together Environmental Design & Construction that "our editorial will never be influenced by advertising." The value of editorial integrity is ingrained in me having come from that side of the publishing field rather than the sales side. We would be doing ourselves, our readers and even our advertisers a disservice by allowing advertisers to influence what we write. Once we write puff about an advertiser, we lose our editorial integrity, and we lose our readers. Without readers, there is no reason to advertise, so we eventually lose our advertisers as well. Writing puff destroys a magazine; writing facts enlivens it. Ultimately, it is in everyoneís best interests to maintain the utmost in editorial integrity and write all of the facts with none of the puff. Perhaps this will even encourage those companies that are guilty of "greenwash" to clean up their own acts and actually join the ecological movement rather than just ride on its coattails. We are all working toward the same goal ñ the construction of buildings that are healthy for their inhabitants as well as for the earth. With this new magazine, we plan to educate architects, interiors designers, contractors, building owners, and others in design and construction how to achieve this goal, and we welcome you and thank you for joining us. John Sailer Publisher/Editor David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 22:04:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA01397 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:04:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA23826 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:03:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA14455; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:53:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14137 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:52:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14132 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:52:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.72] (1Cust72.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.72]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA03694 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:58:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802180258.SAA03694@germany.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Wheatboard Date: Tue, 17 Feb 98 18:58:05 -0800 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2084 Beverly Have you talked to the people at Naturall Fibre? I'm not sure that the product's characteristics are the same as Wheatboard, but it would be worth exploring. Jaime Rains Naturall Fibre PO Box 150 Minneapolis KS 67467 Tel: 785-392-9922 Fax: 785-392-2827 Bruce >Does anyone know 1. the name of the Canadian firm 2. how to contact them >and 3. who is distributing the product? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 22:54:47 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA03602 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:54:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA07423 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:53:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16286; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:47:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:43:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA16025 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:42:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ibmmail.COM (ibmmail.com [204.146.168.193]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16019 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:42:48 -0500 (EST) From: Jim_Hartzfeld@mail.ifsia.com Received: from IMXGATE.COM by ibmmail.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 8898; Tue, 17 Feb 98 22:48:39 EST Received: from mail.ifsia.com by imxgate.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Tue, 17 Feb 98 22:48:37 EST Received: by mail.ifsia.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 852565AF.00152DB2 ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:51:19 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: INTERFACE To: jorange@CUNINGHAM.COM cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <852565AF.0014B43A.00@mail.ifsia.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:50:41 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: recycled aggregate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2085 Interface Architectural Resources grinds up cement from off-spec Tec-crete access floor panels into aggregate for cement for new panels. I don't know if they have had to alter their compounding procedure to accept this recycled aggregate. If you have further questions, I can connect you with Rick Strayer, head of manufacturing, for Interface Architectural Resources in Grand Rapids, Michigan. I hope this is of some help to you. Jim Hartzfeld Sr. Vice President Interface Research Corporation ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 17 23:46:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA06532 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:46:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA20592 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:44:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA18590; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:38:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:33:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18237 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:33:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18229 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:33:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA26588 for ; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:38:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-35.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.163) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma026467; Tue Feb 17 22:37:41 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980217233647.00704270@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:36:49 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: recycled aggregate in concrete and block? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2086 Recycled aggregate in concrete and block? The lab at the NCMA (National Concrete Masonry Assn.) was looking at this issue (~ 1990 or so...). I seem to recall there were some problems related to the old cementitious materials "contaminating" the mix, and leading to poor strength of block. You might wish to contact them, in Virginia (Outside DC) link to their list of employees, and send a message to Mark Hogan, VP of Technology (sic) =-=-=-=- Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:07:34 -0600 From: joyance@CUNINGHAM.COM Subject: GBlist: recycled aggregate Does any one have a source for concrete block, cast in place, or pre-cast concrete that uses recycled aggregate? I do not mean aggregate that has been washed from still wet cement. I mean aggregate that either contains some hardened cement or is a recycled material (such as glass). | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 06:59:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA09075 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:59:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA17223 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:57:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA28292; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:51:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:47:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA28031 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:47:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from becca.gulfaccess.net (root@ns1.gulfaccess.net [209.26.59.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA28027 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:47:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.26.59.31] (nap-pm3-01-21.gulfaccess.net [209.26.59.31]) by becca.gulfaccess.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA21036 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:58:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:58:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802180700.CAA22577@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Mark Albanese Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #80 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2087 Does anybody know a Canadain frim who produces or will produce an insulated concrete from that has a plastic skin on the exterior which eliminates painting altogether. Thanks Mark Albanese ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 08:32:36 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA19565 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:32:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA07862 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:30:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01050; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:24:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:20:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00460 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:20:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00456 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:20:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from homer.ampsc.com (homer.ampsc.com [207.102.161.118]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id XAA25118; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:06:15 -0800 Message-ID: <34EA8579.2DA3@ampsc.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:53:45 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jsailer@aol.com CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Inaugural issue of Environmental Design & Construction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2088 Hello John, I am quite interested in the inaugural issue of Environmental Design & Construction magazine, can you send me a copy? Thank you. Richard Moore CEO Eco-Systems Unlimited - Sustaining Safe and Healthy Occupancies Development Management, Building Systems Analysis, Indoor Air Environment Specialists, Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 08:32:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA19570 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:32:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA07875 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:30:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01061; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:20:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00485 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:20:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00474 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:20:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from sport.ampsc.com (sport.ampsc.com [207.102.161.167]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA20472; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:13:37 -0800 Message-ID: <34EA5AE8.5E35@ampsc.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:52:42 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Beverly A. Weiter" CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game References: <34E5F35C.6495@dreamscape.com> <19980217.124037.9118.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2089 Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > I disagree strongly - there is more to building than homes. What about > factories, > offices, stores etc. Can we afford to build environmental homes but > continue to > work, shop , or educate our children in "standard" buildings? I think > not. > > Beverly > Environs Interiors Inc. > Boca Raton, FL > Hello Beverly, You are right on! I have been trying to shift the focus towards the health and safety of all occupancies, not just residential, commerical, institutional or industrial. It doesn't matter where we occupy, nor why, but only that we do, and for that simple reason, ALL occupancies must meet the same minimum standards of design,construction, operation and maintenance practices. Thank you Beverly, Richard Moore. CEO Eco-Systems Unlimited - Sustaining Safe and Healthy Occupancies Development Management, Building Systems Analysis, Indoor Air Environment Specialists, Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 08:33:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA19593 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:33:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA08085 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:31:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01175; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:25:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:21:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00580 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:21:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00565 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from gauss.ampsc.com (odessey.ampsc.com [207.102.161.153]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA19934; Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:55:14 -0800 Message-ID: <34EA58BC.77AE@ampsc.com> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:42:52 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jorange@CUNINGHAM.COM CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: recycled aggregate References: <199802180007.SAA00208@ntmail.cuningham.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2090 jorange@CUNINGHAM.COM wrote: > > Does any one have a source for concrete block, cast in place, or pre-cast > concrete that uses recycled aggregate? I do not mean aggregate that has > been washed from still wet cement. I mean aggregate that either contains > some hardened cement or is a recycled material (such as glass). Please check with your local concrete company and excavation companies, as well as aggregate supply firms. Re-cycling concrete, etc. using crushers and separators has been common practice for some time, especially in my local. Richard. -- Eco-Systems Unlimited - Sustaining Safe and Healthy Occupancies Development Management, Building Systems Analysis, Indoor Air Environment Specialists, Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 09:20:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23934 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:20:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA21236 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:18:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02584; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:12:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:08:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02305 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:08:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02300 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:08:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.80]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 9776600 ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:13:30 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980218090617.0069d2ec@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:06:17 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: Env Design & Construction\Daylit Schools In-Reply-To: <199802180031.TAA05241@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2091 The web site for Environmental Design & Construction is: www.edcmag.com It can also be accessed through the publisher's web site at: www.bnp.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------- I've raised a lot of sceptical eyebrows with the paper (Analysis of the Performance of Students in Daylit Schools) on improved test scores in daylit schools. Contact the following to optain a copy: Innovative Design 850 West Morgan Street Raleigh, NC 27603 919-832-5303 919-832-3339 fax Also have heard that cavities have declined. Something to do with the vitamin D supplied by sunlight. Another paper available is entitled Energy Performance of Daylit Schools in North Carolina. EBN also did short case study in the May/June 96 issue. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 09:51:08 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA25778 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:51:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA01630 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:49:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03952; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:39:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03640 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:39:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03636 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:39:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (sasc1-38.flash.net [209.30.90.38]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04045 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:45:05 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34EAF635.DFB18A81@flash.net> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:54:45 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game References: <34E5F35C.6495@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------D63316CCEF8695FC165C71C0" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2092 --------------D63316CCEF8695FC165C71C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Responsible is certainly a good possibilty, it doesn't seem to have much > downside. A friend wrote in response to my posing our question to him: > "The word you are looking for is HOME. > It has all of the qualities that you mention, has the ultimate > recognition > factor and is not what people are currently (since ~1945) being offered > by > the marketplace." > > So perhaps for those in the housing end of this "Responsible > Homebuilding" is the right choice. > > Chuck > For the residential side, I second (or third, or whatever) "Responsible Homebuilding". Here's why: One of our wise members pointed out that we have a "massive re-education" process ahead of us. Ma and Pa Kettle are the market, and with few exceptions, the market drives the builders. If I'm taking our group pulse right, our ultimate goal is to make a difference. We can't influence Ma and Pa Kettle with a name that makes us sound like a bunch of Japanese Rainbow Warriors, nor should we, IMHO, so dilute our meaning that we become unidentifiable. If we ever want to be more than a fringe group, we have to communicate to the AVERAGE homebuyer that the concepts we advocate will save her/him money and enable better health. Communication's a two-way process. We first have to have a willing audience. Larry --------------D63316CCEF8695FC165C71C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  

Chuck Hinckley wrote:

Responsible is certainly a good possibilty, it doesn't seem to have much
downside. A friend wrote in response to my posing our question to him:
"The word you are looking for is HOME.
It has all of the qualities that you mention, has the ultimate
recognition
factor and is not what people are currently (since ~1945) being offered
by
the marketplace."

So perhaps for those in the housing end of this "Responsible
Homebuilding" is the right choice.

Chuck
 

For the residential side, I second (or third, or whatever) "Responsible Homebuilding".  Here's why:

One of our wise members pointed out that we have a "massive re-education" process ahead of us.  Ma and Pa Kettle are the market, and with few exceptions, the market drives the builders.

If I'm taking our group pulse right, our ultimate goal is to make a difference.  We can't  influence Ma and Pa Kettle with a name that makes us sound like a bunch of Japanese Rainbow Warriors, nor should we, IMHO, so dilute our meaning that we become unidentifiable.
 
If we ever want to be more than a fringe group, we have to communicate to the AVERAGE homebuyer that the concepts we advocate will save her/him money and enable better health.  Communication's a two-way process.  We first have to have a willing audience.

Larry --------------D63316CCEF8695FC165C71C0-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 09:56:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA26524 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:56:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA03329 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:54:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04355; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:48:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:44:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA04028 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:44:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from essential.essential.org (essential.org [198.4.52.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04024 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:44:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from essential.org (meghan.essential.org [198.4.52.7]) by essential.essential.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08733; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:51:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34EAF65F.530CA221@essential.org> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:55:27 -0500 From: Meghan Clancy-Hepburn Reply-To: mch@essential.org Organization: wood reduction clearinghouse X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Beverly A. Weiter" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Wheatboard References: <19980217.130622.11782.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2093 Dear Beverly, Below is some information I have cut and pasted from a posting on the AG-RES listserve. It doesn't have contact information, but I hope it will be helpful to you. Meghan Clancy-Hepburn WRC mch@essential.org http://www.essential.org/wrc/home.html Dear all, The latest edition of Wood & Wood Products lists 6 factories producing tree-free particleboard with the strength and uniform characteristics of wood-based fibreboard. 80% of it will be purchased by 2 companies - Sauder Woodworking of Ohio and VT Industries, producing RTA furniture and kitchen components, respectively. Both companies note they are doing this to relieve pressure on the world's forests. The manufacturers are: - PrimeBoard of Wahpeton, ND - Naturall Fibre Board of Minneapolis, KS (both are the oldest mfgrs of strawboard in N.A.) - CanWel of Hutchinson, KS (There is CenKan, in KS. The product is marketed thru CanWell) - Alta Goldboard of Thorhild, Alberta (Not financed yet, much less built and producing) - AgraFibre of Wanham, Alberta (Financed, being built.) - Phenix Biocomposites of Mankato, MN (After some financing delays, now being built. Phenix has and is also manufacturing Environ, an interesting granite substitute composed mostly recycled newsprint and a soybean derived binder.) Other straw-based plants: The relative environmental friendliness and economic health of using straw in this manner is questionable. I believe better uses of cereal straw exist, but are being missed by most. For more info, you may contact me (Erwin Lloyd of Biocomposite Solutions) at 604-738-4180. Other plants using -Isobord of Elie, Manitoba (Financed, being built, first large strawboard plant.) -Name? Compak Plant around Foresburg, Alberta (Down payment for equipment reportedly placed.) -BioGold Composites near Fort Benton, Montana (Reportedly financed, using used equipment.) ERWIN LLOYD Tel / Fax: (604) 738-4180 e-mail: biocomp@intergate.bc.ca BIOCOMPOSITE SOLUTIONS Research, Product and Process Development Equipment and Adhesives Selection www.forestnet.com/cascade/index.html P. O. Box 2928 #204 - 1030 W. 14th Ave. Blaine, WA 98231-2928 Vancouver, B. C. V6H 1P3 Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > To GB listers, > > I am trying to locate contact information and need your help. I already > know about > Primeboard's product, Wheatboard. The problem is that they do not have a > distribution setup for the South. When I tried to buy some for a job the > freight was > prohibitive. > > I have been told that a Canadian firm is making a very similar product > and that they may already have a distribution agreement for this area, or > at least near enough to > ameliorate the freight charges. > > Does anyone know 1. the name of the Canadian firm 2. how to contact them > and > 3. who is distributing the product? > > Thanks for any help. > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors Inc. > Boca Raton, FL > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 10:00:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27072 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:00:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA04699 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:59:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04831; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:53:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:49:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA04375 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:48:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from essential.essential.org (essential.org [198.4.52.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04371 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:48:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from essential.org (meghan.essential.org [198.4.52.7]) by essential.essential.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08975; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:56:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34EAF7B0.92ED2C91@essential.org> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:01:04 -0500 From: Meghan Clancy-Hepburn Reply-To: mch@essential.org Organization: wood reduction clearinghouse X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Beverly A. Weiter" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Wheatboard References: <19980217.130622.11782.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2094 One more suggestion for you, Beverly. A group called Galloway Fields Company, Inc. is located in Cordova, TN and they are distributing the Industrial Ag Innovations Hemp MDF Board. The number to call is (901) 757-1777 OR (901) 383-10566, fax: (901) 937-7884. I don't know what their shipping costs would be, but they are certainly closer to you than ND or Canada. Sincerely, Meghan Clancy-Hepburn WRC mch@essential.org http://www.essential.org/wrc/home.html Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > To GB listers, > > I am trying to locate contact information and need your help. I already > know about > Primeboard's product, Wheatboard. The problem is that they do not have a > distribution setup for the South. When I tried to buy some for a job the > freight was > prohibitive. > > I have been told that a Canadian firm is making a very similar product > and that they may already have a distribution agreement for this area, or > at least near enough to > ameliorate the freight charges. > > Does anyone know 1. the name of the Canadian firm 2. how to contact them > and > 3. who is distributing the product? > > Thanks for any help. > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors Inc. > Boca Raton, FL > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 10:54:30 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01488 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:54:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21058 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:52:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07687; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:46:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:42:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07418 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo30.mail.aol.com (imo30.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.168]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07412 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:42:19 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo30.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id FWEIa19885; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:46:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3652955e.34eb026f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:46:51 EST To: larry48@flash.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2095 Larry, You wrote: <> Quite elegantly put. I am often amazed by the unappealing language I read and hear from people trying to convince "Ma & Pa Kettle" to be environmentalists by essentially force feeding them the rhetorical equivalent of raw fish. Like such exotic delicacies, the lingo is something one slowly acquires a taste for, after becoming comfortable with the general concepts. Seems to me that if we personally have a granola crunching fetish, a heavily burdened political agenda, an unusual set of technical priorities, or whatever, we should try to separate these somewhat from the larger common goals we can all agree on. It will probably make it a lot easier to get where we are all trying to go. Thanks for the post, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 11:24:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA05214 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:24:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA29924 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:22:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09753; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:16:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:11:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09247 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from stingray.bwbr.com (stingray.bwbr.com [206.147.245.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09240 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:11:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from stephanie.bwbr.com (sm5173.bwbr.com [206.147.245.60]) by stingray.bwbr.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01932 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:16:34 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802181616.KAA01932@stingray.bwbr.com> From: "Stephanie McDaniel" To: Subject: GBlist: New School Indoor air quality Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:20:11 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2096 Our architectural firm has a new elementary school opening up soon. Post design and post construction, what can be done to improve the indoor air quality of the building? It would seem to me that an off gassing period with all mechanical systems running would be appropriate before the inhabitants move in. If so, how long? One of the parents has suggested that plants in the building might be helpful as well, any thoughts on that?? Thanks for your help. ____________________ Stephanie McDaniel BWBR Architects 400 Sibley Street Suite 500 St. Paul, Minnesota 55101 USA 612.290.1872 smcdaniel@bwbr.com http://www.bwbr.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 11:55:06 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07556 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:55:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA08770 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:53:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11408; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:47:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:43:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA11129 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:42:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin51.mx.aol.com (mrin51.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.161]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11124 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:42:46 -0500 (EST) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin51.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id LAA19354 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:48:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:48:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980218114814_-25738628@mrin51.mx> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building Consumer Magazine Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2097 I really appreciate the thoughtful points of both Seth and Michelle on this thread. Truly the marketing of the green is a challenge, if for no other reason, due to the implied (and often baseless claim of) excessive costs. The two distinct views Seth pointed out are also interesting. I tend to be a cynical optimist, a strange mutation of a realist I suppose. My take is that the fact the sacredness no longer holds center (I wonder if it ever did for the masses) creates a tension in people; they know on some level their consumptive habits don't feed their souls, but they don't know what to do about it. How often have we seen though the light in people's eyes when they visit an elegant, simple and economical strawbale home, or an equivalent? There is something about the "Home" place that cuts through the veils, and talks directly to our souls. I can feel this often now visiting places built with care, but I first sensed it in homes whenever I toured a FL Wright. There was a sense of calm, comfort, and nurturing... like i could sit on the floor, or in any corner of the house and read all day, or talk with a friend. That kind of place-inspired feeling just does not exist in many homes for me. I don't think I'm alone when I say that through this conduit we can access a part of people that we cannot in any other way. It's more than making a place affordable, though that I believe will carry the day when life cycle and other real-cost analysis methods are built into codes. It's doing the best we can to make spaces, or complement spaces, and even carry such spaces with us as we engage those less aware of the wondrous world of inexpensive, hand-crafted spaces, using materials that nurture, rather than offend our sensibilities. I'm hopeful that by opening our doors, we open up hearts, too. Tony Novelli ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 13:06:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14324 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:06:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA23539 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:05:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16502; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:59:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:55:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16095 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:54:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16089 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:54:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MGV09208; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:55:54 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:56:23 -0800 Subject: GBlist: carpet Message-ID: <19980218.125626.9678.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-6 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2098 Marc, Sorry to milead you - the wool pad was Appleseed (not Appleton) and another alternative company is Chris Craft (yes the boat company) which does composite pads. Beverly _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 13:14:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15316 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:14:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA25849 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:13:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13175; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:12:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:08:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12657 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:08:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.177]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12653 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:08:08 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id GMXPa03041; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:13:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:13:58 EST To: smcdaniel@bwbr.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: New School Indoor air quality Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2099 1. Don't let the mechanical contractor get away without balancing the system. This is the number 1 problem I see. 2. Last I heard, "baking out" (running the building at high temperatures) is out of fashion. 3. Allowing outgassing for a period of time is a good idea. Make sure the ventilation system is functional, else the outgas won't get out. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX IMSHAPIRO@AOL.COM "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 13:14:47 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15320 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:14:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA25857 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:13:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14168; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:25:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:21:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13758 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13751 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:21:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MgY09208; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:05:11 EST To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:54:25 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Non-toxic carpet Message-ID: <19980218.120504.8814.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <2288131@lyme.valley.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-46,48-49,51,55,59-60,62,64-65,67,69-70,74,76-82 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2100 On 17 Feb 98 14:54:13 EST Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) writes: >A good friend wants to put carpet in her bedroom and living room. >This is NOT >a wall-to-wall installation - but the bulk of each room will be >carpet. > >My experience is in selecting carpet for commercial/institutional >clients, not >homes. I can't envision Collins & Aikman or Interface products for >this home >application (she is definitely not looking for carpet tile, for >instance), but >perhaps GBListers will teach me otherwise. > >1) what is the best choice for non-toxic carpet - natural fiber or >synthetic? > >2) if the answer to 1) is natural fiber, who makes them without >pesticides, >etc.? > >3) what brand names are available, especially in the northeast? where >to >order? > >Please no lectures about the evil of carpet - this wouldn't be my >choice, but >my friend is going to get carpets, and I want to help her to make the >best >choice. > >Thank you > >Marc Rosenbaum > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > Marc, You are right, she would be better with no carpet but this is reality. The most important things in chosing carpet are 1. material 2. backing and 3. underpad. First, her best choice is probably 100% wool, but that is only if she does not react to the natural lanolin. Wool is easiest to clean, lasts longer and has fewer chemicals than synthetic. There is also at least one company making a totally organic wool carpet if she is very sensitive. The second choice would be recycled nylon, but be aware that only the higher end can be found without Scotchguard (bad news because of formaldehyde). Cotton carpeting is available but do not recommend - hard to clean, doesn't look great and is extremely expensive( not to mention environmental damage done by growing of cotton non-organically). Re: #2 Avoid polypropelene backing and look for carpet backed with natural jute (yes like the old-style carpets). Non-jute backed carpeting outgases 4-PC, a natural occuring chemical resulting from the bonding process. re: #3 Avoid composite padding - most, like the popular Rebond, use a formaldehyde based binder and reek. Better choices include wool, rubber (not latex), or fiber composite. Sources include Carpet: Bellbridge, Avalon (both jute backed) Shaw, & Nature's Carpet (organic from sheep feed to final processing) , Image (recycled nylon) Padding: Dura (recycled tire rubber), Shaw (Endurance- non-allergenic), and one called Appleton or someting similar (wool - cannot use here so am not clear on exact name). Hope this helps. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 13:14:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15312 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:14:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA25839 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:13:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13077; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:11:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:07:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12581 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:07:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12576 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:07:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip222.efn.org [204.214.97.222]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA17411; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:06:01 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: , Cc: "GreenBuilding Listserver" Subject: Re: GBlist: Inaugural issue of Environmental Design & Construction Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:39:58 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd3c8b$d9caa8e0$de61d6cc@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2101 I also am interested in the inaugural issue of Environmental Design & Construction magazine, can you send me a copy too? Robert Bolman President NW EcoBuilding Guild 888 Almaden St Eugene, OR 97402 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 13:33:00 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16173 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:33:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA01878 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:31:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18777; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:25:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:21:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18345 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:20:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18338 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:20:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.93] (ub16.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.113]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA11686; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:26:59 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802181616.KAA01932@stingray.bwbr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:28:06 -0500 To: "Stephanie McDaniel" , greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: New School Indoor air quality Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2102 >Our architectural firm has a new elementary school opening up soon. >Post design and post construction, what can be done to improve the indoor >air quality of the building? > >It would seem to me that an off gassing period with all mechanical systems >running would be appropriate before the inhabitants move in. If so, how >long? > >One of the parents has suggested that plants in the building might be >helpful as well, any thoughts on that?? > >Thanks for your help. > >____________________ >Stephanie McDaniel Hi Stephanie, Here're my thoughts: 4) keep water out of the building (realized this shoould maybe be first) 1) if the school district incorporates indoor air hygiene aspects into its exisiting instructional, buildings and grounds, transportation, food services and administrative programs, there will be very few IAQ problems. To that end I refer you to Tools for Schools from EPA. It's a set of documents intended to help schools do just that. Some help is available. The EPA Regional Offices are beginning a Tools for Schools pilot program, in which they provide technical assisstance, if the school promises to implement the kit. Another program, out of the EPA lab in Las Vegas, will provide indoor air quality measurements for schools. 2) as it happens, there are a large number of knowledgeable folks in Minnesota - Bill Angell at the Coop extension and Laura Oatman or someone from her department at the Minnesota Department of Health. I'll be in Minnesota the end of May to teach an IAQ course to new MDH employees and participate on a scientific advisory panel for an IAQ in schools program. 3) commission the building. make sure the ventilation equipment is actually working the way it was intended to. make sure air is moving in the same directions as drawn on the prints. Oh, I wrote a paper for the ASHRAE IAQ/Healthy building conference with Rick Monaco, who's the superintendent of buildings and grounds in Baldwinsville, NY called "INCORPORATING PREVENTION AND RESOLUTION OF INDOOR AIR PROBLEMS INTO THE REGULAR BUILDING AND GROUNDS PROGRAMS OF A SCHOOL SYSTEM", covers things a bit more from the schools perspective. Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 15:37:13 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22195 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:37:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA10157 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28147; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:01:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA27759 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:01:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from msmail.co.alameda.ca.us (msmail.co.alameda.ca.us [166.107.250.98]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27755 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:01:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802182001.PAA27755@solstice.crest.org> Received: by msmail.co.alameda.ca.us with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id <1Z8RYH5J>; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:10:11 -0800 From: "Lin, Paul, GSA-Recycle" To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: PolyUrethane Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:07:00 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2103 Does anyone know about toxicity issues associated with polyUrethane-containing finishing/surfacing products? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 15:37:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22200 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:37:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA10161 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27706; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:00:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:56:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27289 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:56:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27285 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:56:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA13076; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:11:18 -0800 Message-Id: <34EB3E6B.2A0E@arb.ca.gov> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:02:51 -0800 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Subject: Re: GBlist: New School Indoor air quality Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2104 HI, STEPANIE: I second responses from Terry B. and Mike O'B., and add that California has an advisory on indoor environmental quality in portable class rooms that you should check out. It is a short do & don't list that we developed that also applies to other bldgs., and it mentions the VOC Guidelines, and exemplary program for schools in Maryland, Washington state, and New York. You can get the Advisory and the VOC guidelines from: Indoor Air Quality Program Calif. Dept. of Health Services 510.540.2476 Best wishes, Tom -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm http://arbis.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 15:37:15 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22210 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:37:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA10166 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:35:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25165; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:33:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:27:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23885 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:27:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23871 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:27:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.98] (pa-ppp26.hevanet.com [204.119.60.111]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04713; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:31:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980218.125626.9678.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:28:22 -0800 To: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: carpet Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2105 Hi, Beverly-- You wrote: (snip) another alternative company is Chris Craft (yes the boat company) which >does composite pads. We tried to contact ChrisCraft when we updated our product guide, and could not find them. Could you post current info? To clarify about Image Industries carpet, I understand that most of their line is recycled PET or polyethylene terpthalate, and the high-end carpet is a blend of PET and nylon. Image says PET fiber is stain-resistant, without ScotchguardTM or similar treatments. We're working on a Healthy House here in Portland sponsored by the American Lung Association. The ALA brought Dr. Subrato Chandra from the Florida Energy Center to advise and test/monitor the house. He suggested all nylon (fiber and backing) carpet as one option. (The Healthy House will have no carpet.) TIA, Mike O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants 4233 SW Corbett Avenue Portland, OR 97201 (503)222-2303 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 15:37:17 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22223 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:37:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA10174 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:35:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24775; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:25:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23697 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:25:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23692 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:25:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.98] (pa-ppp26.hevanet.com [204.119.60.111]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04704 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:31:22 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802181616.KAA01932@stingray.bwbr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:14:22 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: Re: GBlist: New School Indoor air quality Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2106 Hi, Stephanie-- There's also a book from EPA called "Improve Your School's IAQ, A Guide to Preventing and Resolving Indoor Air Quality Problems". It's written in governmentalese, but has some good ideas and resources. I think I got it from the Indoor Air Clearinghouse, 1-800-438-4318. Best, Mike >Our architectural firm has a new elementary school opening up soon. >Post design and post construction, what can be done to improve the indoor >air quality of the building? > >It would seem to me that an off gassing period with all mechanical systems >running would be appropriate before the inhabitants move in. If so, how >long? > >One of the parents has suggested that plants in the building might be >helpful as well, any thoughts on that?? > >Thanks for your help. > >____________________ >Stephanie McDaniel > >BWBR Architects >400 Sibley Street Suite 500 >St. Paul, Minnesota 55101 >USA > >612.290.1872 >smcdaniel@bwbr.com >http://www.bwbr.com >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants 4233 SW Corbett Avenue Portland, OR 97201 (503)222-2303 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 15:37:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22229 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:37:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA10179 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:35:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25404; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:35:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:29:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24154 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:28:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24138 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.2] (blf2.acadia.net [205.217.217.2]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA06294 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:34:38 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:32:34 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Marketing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2107 Marketing to "Ma and Pa Kettle" poses a dilemma. If we want to persuade people gently, then our appearance, language and actions should be reasonable and appeal to the everyday concerns of everyday people. But what to do when we're asked, "What's wrong with the status quo?" If we want to be "reasonable", we answer, "Oh not much at all - just a few technical adjustments. Don't worry!" There's nothing wrong with the system that a few minor technical adjustments can't fix...is that what we really think? Is it? I'd really like to know. Sarah and I try to take the approach of saying, "Look, environmental building is our passion, and we've devoted our lives to it. We'll go as far as you want to - so the question is, if we're here to help and guide you, if we can assure of of good design, comfort, durability and value, how far would YOU like to go?" As time goes by, Sarah and I are less interested in converting "Ma and Pa Kettle" than in working with the growing number of people who are motivated to change their lives, and are looking for some help with the scary parts. I think that's what Fred and others mean: there are a lot of "fence-sitters" out there, and they're scared to depart from the status quo. Anything we can do to liberate them from their fear will increase our potential customer base - trouble is, sounding like a bunch of starry-eyed goofballs won't do the trick. But each time any of us designs or builds another competent, elegant, beautiful structure, on time and on budget, we've shown that there's no reason NOT to build environmentally. If only we could persuade mortgage officers, realtors, appraisers and whoever does those "101 Home Plans" books of this... David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 15:37:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22236 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:37:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA10190 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19765; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:35:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:31:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19374 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:31:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheetah.pacinfo.com (root@cheetah.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19366 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:31:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (p23.tc1.pacinfo.com [208.129.29.23]) by cheetah.pacinfo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10675 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:33:02 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3652955e.34eb026f@aol.com> References: Conversation <3652955e.34eb026f@aol.com> with last message <3652955e.34eb026f@aol.com> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Clan Handley" Subject: Re: GBlist: Name Game Date: Wed, 18 Feb 98 10:38:20 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2108 Ma Kettle here: Seriously, I am not a designer, or architect or engineer or builder. I'm a mom, with kids. I'd like to build a strawbale home eventually and I'm subbed so that I can learn about "green" design and about products that are safe for my family and safe for the environment. I have been thinking a great deal about this, both the nature of green building and appropriate names. Warning: this will probably be lengthy. To be honest, with the exception of Halewright, I haven't seen a single proposal which I think has broad mass market appeal. Even that exception is probably to obscure to catch on, but who knows. Cellular phone doesn't have a lot of market appeal either. First of all, you want a name that appeals to architects and builders, companies (customers wanting new facilities, NOT builders), and homeowners. I've seen quite a few names here which probably appeal to group 1, and few that might appeal to group 2, all most nothing for group 3. Group 3 will be attracted by warm and fuzzy names, which will turn group 2 off. You may be limiting yourselves by trying to keep the word "building" or "design" in the name. Here in Oregon (other places have it as well, I'm sure) we have a classification "Super Good Sense". It doesn't sound like it has anything to do with buildings at all, but, in fact, it is a standard for energy efficiency. Any name with "responsible" or "healthy" or like words in it sounds too much like oatmeal and prune juice. It's good for you, but you aren't going to like it much. Next, you will be most successful with the consumer if they don't have to spend too much time figuring out if an option is really "greener" than another. When comparing two products one can analyse both to the point where neither seems better, where, in fact, neither seems good at all. Take disposable vs. cloth diapers as an example. On the face of it disposables appear to be much less green. They are single use, they use trees, they use plastic, they contain a strange-mutating gel and they put human waste in the landfill. Cloth diapers are reusable. They also have to be washed in extremely hot water, rinsed at least twice, require plastic overpants which wear out, wash human waste through the gray water cycle, and are made out of cotton---the most heavily pesticide ridden and fertilized crop we grow--generally in the deserts of Arizona. They aren't exactly "green" either. Let's face it, natural stone isn't more "green" than Corian if it has to be quarried in Brazil. You will get much further with Ma and Pa Kettle if they KNOW they are buying a product that isn't harmful to the earth. It will betray the entire movement if they later find out it wasn't that green after all. Now---what exactly is green building. Here is a huge topic that I probably shouldn't be getting into. There are clearly many different perspectives on the list. I notice, that for some, energy efficiency seems to override every other concern. Here is what I think is the ideal of greenbuilding. I do realize that it is an ideal and that it will require a massive vision shift to get there, but I do think it is attainable. It is also a vision that will appeal to most people except for the gummint and utilities. I think that truly "green" building has to come from a systems perspective. All of the systems have to be completely integrated, largely self-sustaining, and supportive of one another. In a sense, the home, or building will be fractal. As you look as smaller and smaller systems they will resemble the larger systems. The ideal building will: Sustain at least as much life as was destroyed by the footprint. Supply most of its own needs---it will collect water, produce energy and filter its wastes. Not poison the inhabitants or the earth. Be built using local materials. I mean really local. Not just purchased locally, but made from locally available materials. This means there is no broad standard of type of housing that will be applicable everywhere as available materials will vary. This is what I mean by nested systems: The entire earth is a complex biological process in which there is no waste. The waste produced by one being is the food for another. We, humans, need to remember that we are part of this process, not exempt from it. The property (modeling the larger system of the earth) will produce no waste. Perrenial growth will naturally mulch the ground, sustaining the growth of small annual crops. Compost and other human waste will feed back into the system. The property provides food for us, we provide food for the food. The house itself should not produce excess waste in its construction or operation, nor should there be a net loss of green growing things or wildlife because of its construction---either in footprint or materials. When the house has completed its natural lifespan it should be completely recyclable without toxic by-products. It should decompose or be reused. Rather than looking at this as an ideal that we can't ever attain, I think it would be useful to look at this as the standard, and then decide how much we can deviate from this without harming the planet. Barbara Handley Eugene, Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 15:37:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22215 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:37:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA10169 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:35:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24761; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:31:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:25:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23685 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:25:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23680 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:25:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.98] (pa-ppp26.hevanet.com [204.119.60.111]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04695 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:31:19 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:07:31 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Mike O'Brien" Subject: GBlist: Name Game Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2109 Hi,All-- Barabara's essay is wonderful--very well thought out, and inspirational. The name game has certainly been interesting--all of the suggestions have validity and authenticity, yet no one seems to have come up with something that everyone could endorse. In a way, the name discussion seems like a microcosm of "green building"--it encompasses everything from dirt walls to ceramic halide lamps--lots of innovation, lots of independent thinkers, who only agree that green building is NOT "business as usual". Maybe we should call it "jambalaya building", a mixture of diverse elements that is tasty, colorful and good for you! ;^) Debbi Allen has persuaded the local (Portland) homebuilder's association to develop their own green building program. They want the program to be authentic, but called something that does not include green- or eco- (we're dicussing "HomeTek 2000"). The builders do like the term "naturescaping" and plan to include at least some elements in every house/yard at the upcoming Street of Dreams. "Naturescaping" seems to capture the complexities of native hardy plants, less toxic chemicals etc. etc. very aptly. People get the idea quickly. And it sounds positive. I wonder if there's an equivalent term for buildings--"naturespaces" or some such. Best, Mike Halewrights, Inc. O'Brien & Associates Environmental Building Consultants 4233 SW Corbett Avenue Portland, OR 97201 (503)222-2303 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 15:40:44 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22688 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:40:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA11154 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:39:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA29817; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:32:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:28:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA29501 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:28:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA29496 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:28:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sg19.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.84]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA14817 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:34:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34EB44AC.21CD@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:29:33 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: 101 homes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2110 How many others, besides myself have considered doing the "definitive" (tongue firmly planted in cheek) collection of green home plans? Something I have sincerely contemplated and would still love to do. As a regular feature in any magazine that comes out of this group, plans are a must, people love to look at plans and dream. As to Davids question of how far wrong is the present level of construction tech., another huge question, I'd say more than a tinking will fix, less than catastrophic or beyond redemption. Then again I'm the guy that believes that turning the mainstream is the most direct route to change. It's a hell of a poser, David, you're not a bad chummer yourself. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 16:30:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA28888 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:30:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA28888 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:29:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03268; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:23:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:18:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02816 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:18:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02810 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:18:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from zen.ampsc.com (zen.ampsc.com [207.102.161.122]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA13157; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:35:18 -0800 Message-ID: <34EB510D.7D9A@ampsc.com> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:22:21 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Albanese CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #80 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2111 Mark Albanese wrote: > > Does anybody know a Canadain frim who produces or will produce an insulated > concrete from that has a plastic skin on the exterior which eliminates > painting altogether. > > Thanks Mark Albanese > Sorry if I misunderstood your note, however, insulated forms are designed and intended to remain in place after the form is filled with concrete. The nature of the individuality of each form, stacked together in configuration, requires that building envelope damproofing and waterproofing measures are adhered to. If the form came with an impervious skin, each form would still require sealing between each other form. Understand the situation now? Richard. Eco-Systems Unlimited - Sustaining Safe and Healthy Occupancies Development Management, Building Systems Analysis, Indoor Air Environment Specialists, Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 16:56:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA01018 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:56:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA07208 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:54:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA04409; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:48:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:44:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04097 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:44:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04093 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:44:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from zen.ampsc.com (zen.ampsc.com [207.102.161.122]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA13924 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:01:38 -0800 Message-ID: <34EB5739.2C79@ampsc.com> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:48:41 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: Wheatboard] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------17852B54036" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2112 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------17852B54036 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- Eco-Systems Unlimited - Sustaining Safe and Healthy Occupancies Development Management, Building Systems Analysis, Indoor Air Environment Specialists, Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 --------------17852B54036 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <34EB5608.7A41@ampsc.com> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:43:36 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mch@essential.org CC: environs.com@juno.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Wheatboard References: <19980217.130622.11782.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> <34EAF7B0.92ED2C91@essential.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Meghan Clancy-Hepburn wrote: > > One more suggestion for you, Beverly. A group called Galloway Fields > Company, Inc. is located in Cordova, TN and they are distributing the > Industrial Ag Innovations Hemp MDF Board. The number to call is (901) > 757-1777 OR (901) 383-10566, fax: (901) 937-7884. I don't know what their > shipping costs would be, but they are certainly closer to you than ND or > Canada. > > Sincerely, > Meghan Clancy-Hepburn > WRC > mch@essential.org > http://www.essential.org/wrc/home.html > I suggest you also look into the manufacturers of KENAF products. Similar in composition to hemp, but unquestionably legal and beneficialto use. Richard. -- Eco-Systems Unlimited - Sustaining Safe and Healthy Occupancies Development Management, Building Systems Analysis, Indoor Air Environment Specialists, Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 --------------17852B54036-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 17:47:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA06407 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:47:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA23719 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:45:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06949; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:39:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:34:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA06424 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:34:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.k12.vt.us (pop.state.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06415 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:34:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from vdh.state.vt.us ([159.105.135.209]) by pop.k12.vt.us (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-44988U13000L2S100) with ESMTP id AAA221; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:53:40 -0500 Message-ID: <34EB638B.EAF851E4@vdh.state.vt.us> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:41:15 -0500 From: mike X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: New School Indoor air quality -Reply Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2113 stephanie a couple of thoughts: 1. mechanicals. make sure the HVAC system is balanced and functioning properly. best to have an independent firm do this. i've been in schools with newly designed and constructed system that didn't move any air--whoops, forgot to connect the ducts... i could send you some good commissioning recommendations from the Minneapolis Public Schools if you're interested. 2. purge the school by running HVAC with 100% outdoor for a minimum of a week post-construction. 3. get a copy of EPA's IAQ Tools for Schools (the school can get a free copy by requesting on letterhead to EPA Kit; PO Box 37133, Wash, DC 20013 or faxing: 202.484.1510) and encourage the school to follow the recommendations in the kit. the guidance in the kit is practical and easy to understand. let me know if you need more info. 4. plants are not an IAQ solution and could be a problem. it would take a jungle to "clean" the air, and then you've have to worry about the microbiologicals taking over. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 18 18:13:59 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA07621 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:13:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA02439 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:12:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08681; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:05:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:01:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08108 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:01:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08095 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:01:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA00557 for ; Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:07:13 -0500 Message-id: <2305363@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 18 Feb 98 18:13:12 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: organic food stds. To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2114 The USDA is open for public commentary on their proposed organic standards, Among the issues are whether they will allow non-organic feed, municipal sludge on organic fields, routine use of drugs and antibiotics, ionizing radiation, and genetically engineered organisms. E-mail me privately and I will send you a copy of a letter I wrote commenting on the issues, with the address and fax # to send comments to, as well as all of the Docket numbers, etc., so you can send comments in with minimum of fuss. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 20 15:30:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA08976 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:30:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA29448 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:28:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13272; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:21:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:15:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA12595 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12590 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:15:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PNN27912; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:08:38 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:08:43 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Ecowork Message-ID: <19980220.150846.10742.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,8,10,12-18 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2115 Hi, to all, I have just received an interesting mailing on a product called EcoWork. This is a series of modular office systems using "98% recycled materials". The company is called Studio EG out of Oakland, CA. Has anyone yet seen, felt , used the system? Would like to hear any feedback. They claim to use wheatboard, cardboard (probably Gridcore), newsprint (probably ala homosote), rubber and non-toxic finishes. The units look interesting though a bit chunky. Configurations are well varied and color choices look to be acceptable. Waiting for your feedback. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 20 15:34:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09096 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:34:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA01004 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:32:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13748; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:25:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:21:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13187 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:21:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net (denmark-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13176 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.172] (1Cust172.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.172]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA08915 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:27:19 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802202027.MAA08915@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Subject: GBlist: GB List is Back in Action Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 12:26:37 -0800 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2116 Hello Greenbuilding Listers As you all have noticed, the pace of our discussion group has been uncharacteristically slow. In fact, it stopped altogether. New anti-spam measures taken by our gracious hosts at CREST ran afoul of the software configuration for our list. We believe the problem has now been fixed. I apologize for the interruption. Now where were we..... Bruce S a moderator -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 21 00:02:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA23279 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 00:02:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAB02224 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 00:01:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA29570; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 23:54:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Feb 1998 23:49:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA29025 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 23:49:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA29001; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 23:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40878; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 21:54:33 -0700 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 21:54:33 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Energy Efficiency Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: ICE Storm in NE North America In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2117 Has anyone read, or does anyone else believe that the recent ice storm that has inflicted about $1.6 billion in insurance claims, was the result of Global Warming (caused by the burning of fossil fuels)? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 21 00:08:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA24057 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 00:08:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA04349 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 00:06:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA29999; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 00:00:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Feb 1998 23:56:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA29680 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 23:56:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA29673 for ; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 23:56:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA67828; Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:00:59 -0700 Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 22:00:59 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Russ Smith Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: commercial building retrofit In-Reply-To: <34C7B876.6C2A@fta.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2118 You said:"The one BIG item you may have overlooked is the percent of the total building load that is consumed by the refrigeration systems. On average the refrigeration system in a supermarket today represents at least 30% of the total energy used and as such MUST be high on the list of areas to be up graded to the best possible operating condition. Our technologies, available to you world wide, can help you provide your clients a 20 to 30% savings when applied to the refrigeration and or air conditioning systems. We normaly see a simple return on investment (ROI) for our projects in under 2 years plus other benifits. _______________________________________________________________________________ Russ:Thanks for the post. Are you referring to "Power Planners" or similar "Ideal Voltage Controllers" (IVC)? ******************************************************************************* Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _______________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 21 10:51:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26901 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 10:51:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA22358 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 10:49:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09049; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 10:43:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Feb 1998 10:39:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08720 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 10:38:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08716 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 10:38:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA18301; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 07:44:15 -0800 Message-ID: <34EEF585.8EFFE388@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 07:40:53 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: ICE Storm in NE North America References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2119 >From Env. Canada "Environment Canada's science advisor on climate change, Henry Hengeveld, helps us out with the question that comes to mind whenever we hear of unusual severe weather -- was this a sign of climate change and things to come?" and more at:http://www.tor.ec.gc.ca/events/icestorm98/icestorm98_climate_change_e.html Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Has anyone read, or does anyone else believe that the recent ice storm that > has inflicted about $1.6 billion in insurance claims, was the result of Global > Warming (caused by the burning of fossil fuels)? Jorg Ostrowski > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 21 11:28:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA00721 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:28:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04119 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:27:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10294; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:21:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:17:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10007 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:16:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10002 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:16:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.79] (uc14.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.79]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA21815 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:23:11 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802201802.MAA18115@glacier.binc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:25:26 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: Induction ranges Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2120 >Any one ever heard of or dealt with induction ranges or cooktops? I have >a client who is interested in one, and from his description they sound >pretty slick. Apparently the cook top, which is smooth like a halogen >range's, sets up a resistive condition whereby the ferrous cookware >becomes hot. Supposed to heat up as quickly as gas, but without the fuss, >IAQ issues, or safety issues. > >I'm interested to learn of any experiences, recommended (or despised) >brands, and why they don't seem to be very popular now. > >Thanks, > >Chris Koehn Chris, I first read about induction cookers in a Rick Brant Science Adventure, "Sea Gold" when I was in sixth grade or so. Rick had made a residential sized unit based on the industrial versions in use back then (I think Sea Gold was actually written in the late forties or early 50's). Since then, I have seen industrial and laboratory models and a few articles promising residential units real-soon-now (kinda like cloud-gel). But I haven't actually seen any residential units. They work the way you describe them - an induced electrical field in ferrous cookware. I'm not sure how efficient this would be. Better than electric resistance ovens because the heat is located so much closer to the food. It would avoid combustion fumes in the house, but from an ecological point of view, electricity is about 35% efficient, putting a lot of waste heat and pollution into the environment. There's a real interesting article along these lines in the most recent HVAC&R Research Journal from ASHRAE, "Analysis of Energy Conversion Systems, Including Material and Global Warming Aspects". - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 21 12:02:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03646 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 12:02:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA14961 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 12:01:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11410; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:55:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:50:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA11068 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:50:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11062 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:50:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.114] (pm3a4.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.194]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA02443; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:56:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 11:56:31 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199802201802.MAA18115@glacier.binc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Terry Brennan From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: Induction ranges Cc: greenbuilding Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2121 Regarding Chris Koehs's question on induction cooktops and Terry Brennan's response: Induction cooktops have been on the market for some time, though they are far from common. General Electric offered a high-end cooktop for a number of years, then discontinued it for a while--I think it is available again. At the NAHB Builder's Show in Dallas this year, I saw another induction cooktop (also high-end) but I can't remember which manufacturer made it (possibly Thermador). I've never heard of an induction _oven_, only cooktops. From research I did when writing the "Consumer Guide to Home Energy Savings" in 1990, an induction element uses less than half the electricity as a coil-type element. As Terry noted, you can only use ferrous-metal cookware. I suspect the Edison Electric Institute has lots of information on them. -Alex Wilson Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 21 16:41:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA25536 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 16:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA21830 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 16:40:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA19411; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 16:34:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Feb 1998 16:28:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA19039 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 16:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.inreach.com (mail.inreach.com [209.142.0.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19033 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 16:28:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from slininger (209-142-4-46.stk.inreach.net [209.142.4.46]) by mail.inreach.com (8.8.8/8.8.6/(InReach)) with ESMTP id NAA09627 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 13:31:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802212131.NAA09627@mail.inreach.com> Reply-To: From: "Kim Slininger" To: "green talk" Subject: GBlist: GBlist. deconstruction Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 13:45:59 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2122 jorange, Yosemite National Park has a contract out to remove several buildings in the flood-ravaged Yosemite Lodge area. I know there is interest among the Park's staff, including me, to deconstruct parts/pieces of the buildings. I'll find out what the specs spell out for the dismantling of the buildings. Along those same lines...does anyone have data on deconstruction of 2 x 6 T&G? What I really am looking for is; the person hours required per sq. ft. of roof decking removed. I realize there are different factors; pitch, roof covering, rafter spacing, attachment methods, etc. Some sort of baseline information to start from would be nice. I am the Valley Buildings and Grounds Supervisor and any information would help in making your tax dollars work in green ways. Thanks ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 21 22:41:45 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA15002 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 22:41:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA24640 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 22:39:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01135; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 22:33:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Feb 1998 22:29:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA00860 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 22:28:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from apcserv2.apcnet.com (root@[206.31.84.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00856 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 22:28:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([206.31.84.106]) by apcserv2.apcnet.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id WAA22745; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 22:52:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802220352.WAA22745@apcserv2.apcnet.com> From: "Military Man" To: "Wendy Rogers" , "Veronica Thompson" , "Sherry Smith" , "Samantha" , "Nikki" , "Mystery cat ^-.-^" , "Melissa Hinson" , "Matt Carpenter" , "Mary K Hudson" , "Mary Hudson" , "Kim Cole" , "Kelly Owens" , "Kansas Country Girl" , "Julie Petricone" , "Jennifer" , "Jeffry Wolfe" , "Green Building" , "David Fannon" , "Dale K" , "Bradley T. Wolfing" , "Bradley T. Wolfing" Subject: GBlist: test Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 08:45:16 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2123 This is a test....as I was getting errors on this sys that i use at home....so if you get this please let me know......you great friend David ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 22 00:41:24 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA18921 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 00:41:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA22801 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 00:39:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA03820; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 00:33:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Feb 1998 00:29:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA03438 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 00:28:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA03434 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 00:28:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA09401 for ; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 23:34:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-26.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.154) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma009378; Sat Feb 21 23:34:15 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980222003324.006f6970@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 00:33:27 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Global Warming / for real? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2124 GB List Participants <_Please_> go to this web page if you: a.) think global warming is a humanistic liberal claptrap. b.) think global warming may be for real.. c.) think global warming is happening now... d.) humankind better get its act together..... Check out the data (and additional resources), and decide for yourself. PS - I bookmarked this one. | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 22 01:20:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA20166 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 01:20:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA01632 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 01:18:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA04684; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 01:12:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Feb 1998 01:08:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA04402 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 01:07:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA04396 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 01:07:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip198.efn.org [204.214.97.198]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA14714; Sat, 21 Feb 1998 22:11:42 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: , "Bion D. Howard" Subject: Re: GBlist: Global Warming / for real? Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 21:44:29 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd3f54$f1857520$c261d6cc@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2125 Thanks to Bion D Howard for a compelling, graphic URL on Global Warming. I found the single most compelling piece of evidence of Global Warming in World Watch magazine (Jan/Feb 1997). The article concerned the exponentially rising levels of insurance company payoffs for weather related disasters worldwide. The graph from 1980 to 1995 is startling in its upward thrust. Perhaps someone more adept at this than I am can find a URL for the article. Also, in the Winter 1998 Amicus Journal published by the NRDC, none other than our president, Bill Clinton is quoted as stating at the June, five-year anniversary of the Rio Earth Summit held in New York that: "Concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere are at their highest level in more than 200,000 years and climbing sharply. If the trend is not changed, scientists expect the seas to rise 2 feet or more in the next century. In America, that means 9,000 square miles of Florida, Louisiana and other coastal areas will be flooded." I repeat, 9,000 square miles of Florida, Louisiana and other coastal areas will be flooded. Now as we know, various industry leaders are admonishing the government not to do anything too rash over the possibility of Global Warming. They don't want it to be bad for business. They don't want it to cost too much. ANYBODY CARE TO PLACE A PRICE ON 9000 SQUARE MILES OF COASTAL REAL ESTATE IN THE UNITED STATES? Robert Bolman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 22 08:10:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA00547 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 08:10:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA22200 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 08:08:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10798; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 08:02:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Feb 1998 07:57:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA10395 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 07:56:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA10383; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 07:56:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA130466; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 06:01:31 -0700 Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 06:01:30 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Robert Bolman Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: Re: substitute for pressure treated wood In-Reply-To: <01bd3f3b$a6574740$c261d6cc@home.efn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2126 Due to the number of private requests for information on "Lifetime" wood preservative, and in an effort to save myself some time, I am posting the requested information publically. We have no financial interest in this product. _____________________________________________________________________________ For information on the above, please contact Oke Wictorim from Valhalla Wood Preservatives Ltd. (403) 229-9365. As previously mentioned they send a lot of this material through the mail since it is a small bag of dry concentrate to which water is added on site. We have used this product on our front porch (decking) and rear deck wood structure (including members adjacent to our vegetable garden) of our home and have used it on several projects including wooden grade beams.I hope this may helpful for those interested in this product. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Sat, 21 Feb 1998, Robert Bolman wrote: > Jorg, > "Lifetime Treatment" sounds great. Where does one buy it? How can I learn > more? > Robert Bolman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 22 11:37:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA05220 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:37:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA24257 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:35:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15082; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:24:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14594 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:23:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14579 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:23:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.31] (blf31.acadia.net [205.217.217.31]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA29367 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:29:46 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:27:39 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: ICE Storm in NE North America Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2127 >Has anyone read, or does anyone else believe that the recent ice storm that >has inflicted about $1.6 billion in insurance claims, was the result of Global >Warming (caused by the burning of fossil fuels)? Jorg Ostrowski end of quote Dear Jorg, I don't believe one can definitively say that THIS particular ice storm was CAUSED by increased CO2 in the atmosphere. Weather patterns are too chaotic to do that. But it is possible to claim that increased global temperatures increase the probability of storms like this happening more frequently. As my brother says, "Any one weather event is still a crap shoot - but we're loading the dice." David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 22 11:37:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA05225 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:37:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA24264 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:35:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15086; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:29:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:25:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14600 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:23:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14590 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:23:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.31] (blf31.acadia.net [205.217.217.31]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA29373 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:29:50 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:27:43 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: Induction ranges Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2128 We used an induction cooktop in the office kitchen of the firm I used to work in. Our unit was a 110-volt, single burner countertop model made by General Electric. It heated food and water as quickly as any other electric cooktop I've used, and it did use about half the electricity. It wouldn't work unless the cookware was ferrous. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 22 11:45:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA05433 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:45:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA27158 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:44:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15541; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:37:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:33:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA15249 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:33:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from apcserv2.apcnet.com (root@[206.31.84.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15245 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:32:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([206.31.84.120]) by apcserv2.apcnet.com (8.7.3/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA14744 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:02:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802221702.MAA14744@apcserv2.apcnet.com> From: "Military Man" To: "Green Building" Subject: GBlist: Sorry for the Test Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:48:12 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2129 Sorry for the Test going out over the GB sys.....I just hit the complete list and hit send.....Thanks for all you help and support in this matter..... David Fannon DF Home Repairs.... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 23 08:34:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA10929 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:34:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06456 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA16920; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:26:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:18:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA16585 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:18:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16581 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:18:37 -0500 (EST) From: Snyder.Robin@epamail.epa.gov Received: from EPAHUB8.RTPTOK.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-8 #22480) with SMTP id <0EOU2E0QU0000Q@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:20:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by EPAHUB8.RTPTOK.EPA.GOV(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 852565B4.0049E1FE ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:26:59 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:23:02 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: GBlist. deconstruction To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <852565B4.00494010.00@EPAHUB8.RTPTOK.EPA.GOV> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Lotus-FromDomain: EPA Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2130 If you want some cost estimates related to deconstruction, check out our website at www.smartgrowth.org Go into the Smart Buildings section, then Topic Resources, then Case Studies. You will find a pdf file (you need Acrobat Reader to download it but you can get that from the Adobe Acrobat website) for the Riverdale Deconstruction case study....complete with cost/labor/value of recovered materials data. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 23 11:37:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17519 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:37:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA03342 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:35:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24544; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:29:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:25:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24198 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:25:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24192 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:25:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id L|B07299; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:23:48 EST To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org, reppe@umich.edu Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:12:34 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Ecowork Message-ID: <19980223.112338.11758.4.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,5-6,8-12 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2131 Jorg, Peter and GB listers, The contact info for EG Studio/Ecowork is 2437A Peralta St., Oakland, CA 94607, phone (510) 763-8812. I read about them on Green Clips which gave an e-mail for info of studioeg@ccnet.com. I love that their catalogue and envelope are printed on old blueprints. Neat, eh? Beverly Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 23 11:43:45 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17831 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:43:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA05652 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:41:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25005; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:35:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:31:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24712 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:31:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24707 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:31:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id L|A07299; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:23:48 EST To: hlevin@mail.cruzio.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:09:32 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Ecowork Message-ID: <19980223.112338.11758.3.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <3.0.32.19980220161102.00e17eb8@mail.cruzio.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4,6-7,9,15-16,19-23 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2132 Hal, First, let me say, you are wise not to move to Florida - we are already overcrowded and getting worse daily. Then there are all the previous problems we discussed. I, too, would not live here but my husband of 26 years likes it. I hope someday to change his mind. I miss New England, except for the cold. Re: outgassing from recycled products, I think it would depend on what was the "feed" material being recycled. Wheatboard, for example, is made of precycled waste but smells great, like a bran muffin (I happen to like bran muffins). The science of it is a bit beyond me, which is why I always make a habit of getting an MSDS on every new product (or at least requesting one). If I don't receive one I don't generally use the product. It may not guarantee anything, but it is a good first step. You must be on the west coast, California? I don't think I would want to live there. It must be a bit nerve wrecking. Hope you have a boat handy. Beverly Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 23 12:10:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA19380 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 12:10:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA17012 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 12:08:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26493; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 12:02:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:58:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA26148 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:58:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26143 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:58:34 -0500 (EST) From: Snyder.Robin@epamail.epa.gov Received: from EPAHUB8.RTPTOK.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-8 #22480) with SMTP id <0EOUCDHP8000FB@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by EPAHUB8.RTPTOK.EPA.GOV(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 852565B4.005D9D9F ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 12:02:31 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:57:47 -0500 Subject: GBlist: flat roof replacement To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <852565B4.005CCF08.00@EPAHUB8.RTPTOK.EPA.GOV> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Lotus-FromDomain: EPA Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2133 I've checked the archives, but I couldn't find anything particularly applicable.... I've got a flat roof that must be replaced. I can't afford a metal roof, so I'm looking at other options. So far, I've gotten a quote for a rubberized asphalt roof and a "Miracote" roof. I looked at the Miracote website, it wasn't very helpful. Is there anyone out there with experience with either of these types of roofs? Or, do you know where a layperson could "bone-up" on flat roofs so as to make the best investment? Thanks for any help you can provide. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 23 14:26:21 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA24304 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA23883 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:24:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA04157; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:18:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:13:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03817 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:13:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV (dcsmtp.wictok7.epa.gov [161.80.160.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03813 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 14:13:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:26:26 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 11:14:07 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT To: greenbuilding@crest.org, robtb@efn.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Global Warming / for real? -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2134 At $5,000 per acre it's about $30 billion. At $100,000 it's $600 billion (this strikes me as a very high estimate). The $30 billion figure (over 100 years of slowly being lost) is probably too small to capture anyone's political attention. The $600 billion might be, too ($6 billion per year). Of course, that doesn't include any structures or infrastructure that may be built on that land. That's where the insurance industry comes in (I hope). Steve O. __________ Contact Information: Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs U. S. EPA - 6202J 401 M Street, SW Washington, DC 20460 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epamail.epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html __________________________ >>> Robert Bolman 02/22/98 12:44am >>> Thanks to Bion D Howard for a compelling, graphic URL on Global Warming. ANYBODY CARE TO PLACE A PRICE ON 9000 SQUARE MILES OF COASTAL REAL ESTATE IN THE UNITED STATES? Robert Bolman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 23 19:53:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA07104 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:53:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02410 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:51:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA21416; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:44:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:40:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA20720 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:39:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA20708 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:39:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA15664 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:45:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-47.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.175) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma015641; Mon Feb 23 18:45:01 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980223194355.006f3b88@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:44:00 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Societal Cost Estimates of Sea-level increase Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2135 (original encouragement from Robert Bolman) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Problem: Societal Cost (prelim.) of 2' (61 cm) increase in Sea Level on US mainland Back of the envelope calculations / request GB List "technoid" input ------------------------------------- (figure's very rough but believed to be in right order of magnitude) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ $ 5 Tr. US to $ 6 Trillion US depending on assumptions (~20 yr) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Here is an attempt to estimate some major costs to society of a major rise in sea level, US mainland, assuming 9,000 Sq-mi (2.33 mega-HA) were inundated. * datum: building lots along Eastern Shore in Md cost ~ $42,000/acre. 9000 x 640 x 42,000 = $241.9 Billion for land at 1/2 acre lots, this would be enough land for over 11.5 e6 homes ... if 25% were built-out on that ground ~ 4 million homes ... if each home was worth $137,000 (less land) '97 median price Then total value in housing and land = $241.9 B + (4 e6 x 1.37 e5) Total = $241.9 B + $630.2 B So, let's say for sake of argument about $ 0.9 Trillion dollars... * This does not count the embodied energy of the destroyed physical plant, which in round numbers could be valued at 40% of the monetized value of the destroyed buildings: ~ $ 400 Billion in wasted embodied energy waste * Greenhouse gas from rotting mass of destroyed timber, sheathing, furnishings? Societal cost of these emissions [Methane is a very powerful GHG; I don't have this calc done] [ this would be a true societal externality ] ------------- Note time factor here ---> * Then deduct the un-expended fossil fuels and electric power for these dwellings that are no more (...some silver lining) 4 e6 x $1,250/yr @ $12/mmBTU = 0.41 Quad {"all" fuels) and at ~65 megaton/Q (ORNL) ~ 27 Megatons / avoided emissions the societal value is approx 0.62 x annual energy cost = $3.1 B (20 yr) * Then need to count the "refugee" costs; but let's estimate each of the refugees (calculate 2.3 persons x 4 million homes destroyed) needs an equivalent value of care as a prison inmate @ $23,000 per year (to taxpayers) then: 2.3 x 4 e6 x $23,000 = $ 211.6 B per year (20 yr) So, we have an impact of the same order of magnitude as the current national debt hanging in the balance. "Total" = [$0.9Tr + $400B] - ($3.1B x 20) + ($Methane x 20) + ($211.6B x 20) ~ $ 5.6 Tr, plus impact value of Methane over 20 yrs (2005-2025) Comments: ----------------- Note: this is a cyclical problem -- rot of decaying building materials generates methane which accelerates warming trend, leading to more global change? Does not attempt to quantify the lost productivity of so many displaced persons and businesses. Much of this region conducts trade in international tourism, furthering the long term economic impact. The insurance companies have also done this kind of math, and many are already migrating their businesses out of the coastal regions... I wonder what the Dow Jones average would be if sea levels really started to encroach, more Cat-5 Hurricanes became the norm, January and February killer tornados become common, ice storms hacked away at the populous Eastern side of North America every "winter" (if we still call it that) and if Malibu winds up "wearing" Mulholand Drive, well need I go on... Thoughts on El Nino: ------------------------------ Let's say it is a completely cyclical ocean-atmosphere "oscillation" unrelated to any trend in planetary temperature. But, let's also observe that if a major shift in the sub-tropical Jet (stream) during low-sun months in the Northern Hemisphere becomes the norm under broad warming, then: .: El Nino may be like a canary in a coal mine, and to quote... "we ain't seen nothing yet, etc." Action Item: ------------------ So, engineers, economists, environmentalists, (and anybody else) why not comment on this? Especially needed are comments on what other cost (or benefit?) categories might be included in such an analysis. Maybe this societal damages scenario can become the first consensus document to be "published" by the GB-List? Just knowing the costs is one thing, but including the benefits (such as they may be) would lend to a balanced assessment. If the societal costs over time are estimated and properly discounted, we could develop an "effects mitigation plan and budget" on the big-picture items. We could develop a major press mailing list to send the document to, and to every warm body on Capitol Hill as well. Check this over and re-post with corrections, additions, guffaws, etc. Attn.: list managers is this OK? I need help on the greenhouse potential of Methane, and calculate the gas emissions from the demolished homes to add -- this is why the $5- to $6 Trillion ranged number for now. <*;*> Got my attention alright. ------------ At 09:44 PM 2/21/98 -0800, "Robert Bolman" wrote: >Thanks to Bion Howard for a compelling, graphic URL on Global Warming. > >I found the single most compelling piece of evidence of Global Warming in >World Watch magazine (Jan/Feb 1997). The article concerned the >exponentially rising levels of insurance company payoffs for weather related >disasters worldwide. The graph from 1980 to 1995 is startling in its upward >thrust. Perhaps someone more adept at this than I am can find a URL for the >article. (snip) | | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 23 21:15:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA10405 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:15:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA25064 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:14:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25585; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:07:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:03:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA25223 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:03:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA25219 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:03:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.4] (blf4.acadia.net [205.217.217.4]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA14765 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:09:21 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:07:12 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: flat roof replacement Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2136 Quote: > >I've got a flat roof that must be replaced. I can't afford a metal roof, >so I'm looking at other options. > >So far, I've gotten a quote for a rubberized asphalt roof and a "Miracote" >roof. I looked at the Miracote website, it wasn't very helpful. > >Is there anyone out there with experience with either of these types of >roofs? Or, do you know where a layperson could "bone-up" on flat roofs so >as to make the best investment? > >Thanks for any help you can provide. end of quote Dear Robin, It would be helpful to know the kind of climate you live in. In our practice here in Northern New England, we try to avoid flat roofs whenever possible. If we must do one, we prefer an EPDM (rubber) roof above all others. Metal roofs are hard to make leakproof below about a 3 in 12 pitch. I don't know anything about "Miracote" - probably someone else on the list does. It really makes a difference to have a qualified, experienced roofing contractor install it - this is not a good place to go bargain-hunting. Hope this helps. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 23 21:23:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA10820 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:23:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA27165 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:21:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26135; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:14:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:11:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA25808 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:10:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA25804 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.4] (blf4.acadia.net [205.217.217.4]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA15245 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:16:58 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:14:48 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Societal Cost Estimates of Sea-level increase Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2137 Bion's calculations, while open to scrutiny, show more thought than many of the estimates made to argue that curbing greenhouse gas emissions will hurt the economy. The distressing thing about our economic system is that all the costs Bion proposes would be net additions to the Gross Domestic Product. Therefore, if he's right, a 2 foot sea level rise would be a major shot in the arm to the U.S. economy... at least according to economists. Come to think of it, maybe curbing greenhouse gas emissions WILL hurt the economy - after all, we're talking a 5 to 6 trillion dollar contribution to GDP here... David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 23 21:39:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA11373 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:39:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA01440 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:37:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA27133; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:31:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:27:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA26815 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:26:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA26811 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:26:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip11.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.30]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA162 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:32:49 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980223214239.0073a48c@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:42:39 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Societal Cost Estimates of Sea-level increase In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2138 At 09:14 PM 2/23/98 -0400, David M. Foley wrote: ... >Come to think of it, maybe curbing greenhouse gas emissions WILL hurt the >economy - after all, we're talking a 5 to 6 trillion dollar contribution to >GDP here... Which brings up the interesting concept of contingency planning. I remember so many marching in lockstep to the themesong from the "Limits to Growth" in the late 60s... until someone found out that the system boundary wasn't where these guys wanted. And the social juggernaut returned to normal. Now, a 2 foot increase in sea level also should accompanied by a dramatic shift in weather patterns. The value added concepts will follow water, temperature, ands statistical stability. Howard Hughes bought up Las Vegas for a reason... (I know, rich dead people who were mostly crazy make for bad examples -- but hey, humor is humor). ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 23 21:43:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA11496 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:43:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA02501 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:41:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA27640; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:35:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:31:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA27122 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:30:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA27103; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:30:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA81562; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:34:19 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 19:34:18 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Robert Bolman Cc: Allan Foster , corzines@siu.edu, BobCarter , EdwinSchmeckpeper , GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: CORRECTION & update:Re: substitute for pressure treated wood In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2139 Further to my note of below, and due to the private e-mails I still get, please note the following: 1) Phone # is: (403) 228-5193 2) Fax: # is: (403) 229-9365 3) INTERNET: www.worldexport.com (go to wood treatment or preservatives) 4) IRIS catalogue also has some info on this product. Jorg Ostrowski ____________________________________________________________________________ On Sun, 22 Feb 1998, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Due to the number of private requests for information on "Lifetime" wood > preservative, and in an effort to save myself some time, I am posting the > requested information publically. We have no financial interest in this product. > _____________________________________________________________________________ > For information on the above, please contact Oke Wictorim from Valhalla Wood > Preservatives Ltd. (403) 229-9365. As previously mentioned they send a lot of > this material through the mail since it is a small bag of dry concentrate to > which water is added on site. We have used this product on our front porch > (decking) and rear deck wood structure (including members adjacent to our > vegetable garden) of our home and have used it on several projects including > wooden grade beams.I hope this may helpful for those interested in this product. > ***************************************************************************** > Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. > - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > - college campus and office tower recofit under construction > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 > Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > ______________________________________________________ > On Sat, 21 Feb 1998, Robert Bolman wrote: > > Jorg, > > "Lifetime Treatment" sounds great. Where does one buy it? How can I learn > > more? > > Robert Bolman > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 23 21:55:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA11798 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:55:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA05267 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:53:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA28203; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:47:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:43:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA27945 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:43:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net (denmark-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA27940 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:43:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.229] (1Cust229.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.229]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA01403 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:49:10 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802240249.SAA01403@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: CORRECTION & update:Re: substitute for pressure treated wood Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 18:48:28 -0800 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan cc: "GreenBuilding Listserver" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2140 >4) IRIS catalogue also has some info on this product. To clarify just a bit. I think Jorg means to say that the address and phone numbers for Vallhala can be found in our REDI database . Valhalla Wood Preservatives Ltd 1931 12th Avenue SW Calgary, AB T3C 0R9 Canada tel: 403-228-5193 fax: 403-229-9365 Bruce S. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 23 22:10:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA12208 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:10:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA09353 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:08:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA28806; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:02:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:58:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA28483 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:58:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28478 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:58:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.28] (blf28.acadia.net [205.217.217.28]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA17863 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:04:17 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:02:07 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Societal Cost Estimates of Sea-level increase Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2141 Harry Rector wrote:. > >Which brings up the interesting concept of contingency planning. I remember >so many marching in lockstep to the themesong from the "Limits to Growth" >in the late 60s... until someone found out that the system boundary wasn't >where these guys wanted. And the social juggernaut returned to normal. > >Now, a 2 foot increase in sea level also should accompanied by a dramatic >shift in weather patterns. The value added concepts will follow water, >temperature, ands statistical stability. Howard Hughes bought up Las Vegas >for a reason... (I know, rich dead people who were mostly crazy make for >bad examples -- but hey, humor is humor). > end of quote Good point, and funny. Since I'm an old Limits To Growth adherent, I'll just point out that it wasn't published until 1972, and they basically got the system boundaries right. Check out their recent update, titled Beyond the Limits. The analysis is still valid. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 23 23:16:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA14122 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:16:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA25655 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:14:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA00831; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:08:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:04:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA00536 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:04:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from alpha.cc.oberlin.edu (SYSTEM@alpha.cc.oberlin.edu [132.162.1.245]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00530 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:03:58 -0500 (EST) From: Motofumi.Tohda@oberlin.edu Received: from OBERLIN.EDU by OBERLIN.EDU (PMDF V5.1-10 #24033) id <01ITXQ5N6J5U00DZ0D@OBERLIN.EDU> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:10:03 EDT Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:10:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: GBlist: GB List: styrofoam To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2142 hi, does anyone know the conductivity of styrofoam? thanks! Moto Tohda ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 23 23:51:44 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA15279 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:51:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA04086 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:49:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA01998; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:43:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:39:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA01701 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:39:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA01694 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:39:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip30.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.49]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA160; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:45:23 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980223235509.00735b4c@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:55:09 -0500 To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Societal Cost Estimates of Sea-level increase In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2143 >Good point, and funny. Since I'm an old Limits To Growth adherent, I'll >just point out that it wasn't published until 1972, and they basically got >the system boundaries right. Check out their recent update, titled Beyond >the Limits. The analysis is still valid. I've been told that most of the 60s actually happend in the 70s. And, lo and behold, here's another example(!). Didnt realize that an update was available. I'm always curious about limits because I'm not sure that everything that needs to be known is known yet... I'm convinced, however, that there won't be a shift until there's no alternative. A large share of the resistance to change comes form busily examining the value of doing nothing... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 00:01:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA15529 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:01:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA06031 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:59:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02434; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:53:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:49:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02127 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:49:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from animas.frontier.net (root@frontier.net [199.45.141.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02123 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontier.net (pm3-2-94.frontier.net [199.45.211.94]) by animas.frontier.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03794 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:55:09 -0700 Message-ID: <34F0A89E.45FAD79C@frontier.net> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 15:37:19 -0700 From: Barry Goldberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: induction stoves References: <199802220700.CAA05853@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2144 I had one customer who had a Sears cooktop, made by GE, I think. He was having a problem with it, but I refered him back to Sears because it was a warranty situation. It is a very high end product, very expensive, and will be very expensive if/when it needs service. Barry Goldberg Durango, Co ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 00:11:04 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA15818 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:11:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA08518 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:09:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA03350; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:03:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:58:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02679 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:58:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02668 for ; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:58:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from sharon.mindspring.com (user-37kb6vf.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.155.239]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA22284 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:04:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802240504.AAA22284@camel14.mindspring.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Sharon Allsup" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:05:45 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Studs & Framing Reply-to: imperatrix@mindspring.com In-reply-to: <199802230700.CAA09503@solstice.crest.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2145 After reading a bunch of notes pro and con on steel vs wood studs, I have a question - what WOULD be an environmentally sustainable, non-budget-busting, healthy material for framing? And flooring? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 01:21:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA19057 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:21:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA22963 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:20:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA06064; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:13:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:09:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA05595 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:09:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA05590 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:09:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-191-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.191]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA13753; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:15:34 -0500 Message-ID: <34F26579.9D25E16F@together.net> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:15:21 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Motofumi.Tohda@oberlin.edu CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: GB List: styrofoam References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2146 Styrofoam, refered to as expanded polystyrene, has an R-value of 3.85 per inch with a foam density of 1.0 Lb/Cf. ASHRAE 1997 Fundamentals Handbook. Tom Anderson Motofumi.Tohda@oberlin.edu wrote: > hi, > > does anyone know the conductivity of styrofoam? > > thanks! > > Moto Tohda > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 01:21:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA19065 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:21:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA22971 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:20:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA06068; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:13:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:09:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA05577 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA05573 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:09:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip204.efn.org [204.214.97.204]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA12986; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:13:21 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: , "David M. Foley" Subject: Re: GBlist: Societal Cost Estimates of Sea-level increase Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 21:46:07 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd40e7$806d1f20$cc61d6cc@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2147 >The distressing thing about our economic system is that all the costs Bion >proposes would be net additions to the Gross Domestic Product. Therefore, >if he's right, a 2 foot sea level rise would be a major shot in the arm to >the U.S. economy... at least according to economists. That just goes to show what a silly measure of a country's well-being GDP is. Two jet airliners could collide mid-air. Hundreds of people die. It would cost millions of dollars (not even counting insurance payoffs). But the whole tragedy would be seen as beneficial from the standpoint of GDP. That's why social indicators need to be factored into any strictly economic measure of a country's well-being. Robert Bolman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 01:26:24 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA19393 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:26:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA23769 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA06407; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:18:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:14:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA06117 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:14:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA06106 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:14:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-191-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.191]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA13829; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:20:21 -0500 Message-ID: <34F26698.5414C092@together.net> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 01:20:08 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: imperatrix@mindspring.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Studs & Framing References: <199802240504.AAA22284@camel14.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2148 For start, metal studs will reduce the nominal wall cavity R-value by about 50% , depending on center to center spacing and size of studs. This important but obscure fact is well hidden in ASHRAE literature, for some odd reason. Tom Anderson Sharon Allsup wrote: > After reading a bunch of notes pro and con on steel vs wood studs, I > > have a question - what WOULD be an environmentally sustainable, > non-budget-busting, healthy material for framing? And flooring? > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 04:54:13 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA27936 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 04:54:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA29440 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 04:52:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA11048; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 04:46:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 04:41:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA10768 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 04:41:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from door.bk.tudelft.nl (door.bk.tudelft.nl [130.161.160.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA10764 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 04:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [130.161.160.74] by door.bk.tudelft.nl with SMTP (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA27716; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:41:54 +0100 Message-Id: <34F2A4AF.CC0EA8F3@bk.tudelft.nl> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:45:03 +0100 From: "P.W.Heijmen" Reply-To: P.W.Heijmen@bk.tudelft.nl Organization: LHUMP X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Website 'Sustainable building in the Netherlands' X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------7FC4CA6BDC5691EC2720AD98" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2149 --------------7FC4CA6BDC5691EC2720AD98 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everybody! I'm Peter Heijmen and I'm new on the list. I am a student of architecture in Delft, in the Netherlands, specialising in 'sustainable building', as we call it here. Last summer, I wrote a paper on sustainable building in the Netherlands ten years after 'Our Common Future', and I recently put it on the internet. I think you might be interested in another approach to 'greenbuilding', the way I am interested in your discussion. Also, I would be very interested in any comments from professionals from another continent. Check it out, and please leave your comments... Sustainable building in the Netherlands I hope I can be an active participant in this list. You'll here more from me... Peter Heijmen --------------7FC4CA6BDC5691EC2720AD98 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi everybody!

I'm Peter Heijmen and I'm new on the list. I am a student of architecture in Delft, in the Netherlands, specialising in 'sustainable building', as we call it here. Last summer, I wrote a paper on sustainable building in the Netherlands ten years after 'Our Common Future', and I recently put it on the internet.

I think you might be interested in another approach to 'greenbuilding', the way I am interested in your discussion. Also, I would be very interested in any comments from professionals from another continent. Check it out, and please leave your comments...

           Sustainable building in the Netherlands

I hope I can be an active participant in this list. You'll here more from me...

                                Peter Heijmen --------------7FC4CA6BDC5691EC2720AD98-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 06:45:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA01381 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:45:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA16920 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:43:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA13593; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:37:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:33:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA13320 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:32:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA13316 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:32:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.114] (pm1a26.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.156]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA22814; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:38:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:38:52 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34F26579.9D25E16F@together.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: hvac@together.net From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: GB List: styrofoam Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2150 Tom Anderson wrote: >Styrofoam, refered to as expanded polystyrene, has an R-value of 3.85 per >inch with a foam density of 1.0 Lb/Cf. ASHRAE 1997 Fundamentals >Handbook. > Actually, Styrofoam(R), which is manufactured by Dow Chemical, is _extruded_ polystyrene and it has a stabilized R-value of R-5.0 per inch. When it comes off the production line, the R-value is more like R-6 to R-7, but it fairly quickly drops to the published value of R-5 per inch as the HCFC-141b (an ozone-depleting substance) leaks out and as air leaks in to the cellular structure. (Polyisocyanurate foam insulation maintains its higher R-value because the sell structure is less permeable and it's sheathed with foil.) The density of most extruded polystyrene is 2.0 pounds per cubic foot. _Expanded_ polystyrene, or EPS, is the material Tom was referring to. It is blown with pentane rather than HCFCs and its R-value is lower, though I've generally seen a nominal insulating value closer to R-4.0 per inch. -Alex Wilson Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 06:59:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA01982 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:59:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA19197 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:57:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA14019; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:50:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:46:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA13767 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:46:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA13763 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:46:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.114] (pm1a26.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.156]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA24428 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:52:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:52:34 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <34F26579.9D25E16F@together.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: GBlist: Re: GB List: styrofoam Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2151 Oops. One mistake in my last post. The blowing agent in extruded polystyrene is HCFC-142b. Polyisocyanurate is produced with HCFC-141b. -Alex >> >Actually, Styrofoam(R), which is manufactured by Dow Chemical, is >_extruded_ polystyrene and it has a stabilized R-value of R-5.0 per inch. >When it comes off the production line, the R-value is more like R-6 to R-7, >but it fairly quickly drops to the published value of R-5 per inch as the >HCFC-141b (an ozone-depleting substance) leaks out and as air leaks in to >the cellular structure. (Polyisocyanurate foam insulation maintains its >higher R-value because the sell structure is less permeable and it's >sheathed with foil.) The density of most extruded polystyrene is 2.0 pounds >per cubic foot. _Expanded_ polystyrene, or EPS, is the material Tom was >referring to. It is blown with pentane rather than HCFCs and its R-value is >lower, though I've generally seen a nominal insulating value closer to >R-4.0 per inch. > >-Alex Wilson >Environmental Building News > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 08:51:32 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA07573 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:51:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA13202 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:49:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA17680; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:43:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:34:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17222 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:34:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from E-MAIL.COM (e-mail.com [204.146.168.195]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA17218 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:34:20 -0500 (EST) From: Jim_Hartzfeld@mail.ifsia.com Received: from IMXGATE.COM by E-MAIL.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 8608; Tue, 24 Feb 98 08:40:23 EST Received: from mail.ifsia.com by imxgate.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Tue, 24 Feb 98 08:40:11 EST Received: by mail.ifsia.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 852565B5.004B548D ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:42:48 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: INTERFACE To: hvac@together.net cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <852565B5.004969B3.00@mail.ifsia.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:42:44 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Studs & Framing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2152 Why studs? Though not an expert on this subject. I am intrigued by an old product now relatively new in the US, Hebel Block. They claim this aerated cement block has great thermal and noise insulation (>R-32 for external walls) and tremendous fire and pest resistance. I have personally cut it with a saw and hammered nails into it. Last time I checked they were abour 10% higher than traditional stick framing, but offered the opportunity of significant downsizing, therefore reduced first and operating cost, of the HVAC system. I just walked through a model home in Disney's planned community called Celebration built with Hebel block. You couldn't really tell the difference aesthetically. Unfortunately, they gave up some of the thermal and acoustic value by installing copious single glazed windows. One great advantage is for stucco exteriors though most others can be applied. It applies directly to the block and avoids the rot problems I am hearing about under traditional stucco exteriors. I am interested in experienced builders' views on this material. By upsetting the traditional flow and scheduling of the different trades I expect it creates headaches for some builders. I am considering having a home built with this stuff. Also, since I am new to this list, I may have missed you folks beating this subject up in your energetic, thorough style. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 09:12:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA08505 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:12:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA18380 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:10:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18646; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:03:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:55:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA18050 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:55:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA18046 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:55:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA02698 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:59:11 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 00059E33; Tue, 24 Feb 98 07:48:58 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:59:28 -0600 Message-ID: <00059E33.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Studs & framing To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2153 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:05:45 +0000 From: "Sharon Allsup" Subject: GBlist: Studs & Framing After reading a bunch of notes pro and con on steel vs wood studs, I have a question - what WOULD be an environmentally sustainable, non-budget-busting, healthy material for framing? And flooring? Sharon - I think wood in all its forms is a WONDERFUL material, very environmentally friendly. It is the only building material created largely by solar energy(straw is similar to wood, in this respect), and is also the only building material that removes carbon dioxide from the atmosphere, thus slowing global warming(production of any other material, EVEN WHEN USING RECYCLED MATERIALS, adds to the carbon dioxide burden in the atmosphere). There's no such thing as a "no-impact" material, but in my mind wood comes the closest to this. - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 09:15:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA08667 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:15:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA19163 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:13:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18956; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:07:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:59:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA18191 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:58:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA18181 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:58:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA05758 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:03:31 -0500 Message-id: <2363220@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 24 Feb 98 09:10:43 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Studs & Framing To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2154 Jim suggests that Hebel (autoclaved aerated concrete) has an R value of 32. They actually claim an R value of 9 for their 8 inch material, and then they claim it performs equally to a stud wall of R 30. This can occur in very mild climates where the average outdoor temperature swings around the confort temperature. The thermal capacitance evens out the temperature swings, and the indoors sees the average rather than the extreme temperature. In a climate where the outdoor temperature stays below the comfort temperature for a significant time, this effect is essentially nil. Mass will help a bit in a house with enough glass to take advantage of passive solar gains, but a house with a true R-20 wall will out-perform the passive/massive house with the R-9 wall, all ou=ther things being equal, in all but perhaps the sunniest locations. This mass effect stuff comes up over and over again, and there is no data which suggests that it is significant in a predominantly heating climate. I believe NBS studied this for the log home industry close to 20 years ago. Hebel has benefits - noise, durability, vermin-proof, etc. I just wouldn't assume it to be R-30. BTW - other manufacturers are: Ytong - 800 986-6435 Texas Contach - 956 783-5422 Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 09:19:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA08866 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:19:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA20062 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:17:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19250; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:11:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:03:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18575 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:03:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18559 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from homer.ampsc.com (homer.ampsc.com [207.102.161.118]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA10219; Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:14:13 -0800 Message-ID: <34F2D401.6042@ampsc.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:06:58 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim_Hartzfeld@mail.ifsia.com CC: GreenBuilding Listserver , hvac@together.net Subject: GBlist: Hebel Block Construction References: <852565B5.004969B3.00@mail.ifsia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2155 Hello Jim, I have been at this game for over 30 + years, and I think rot and the microbial contaminations which result, is a very serious problem to our health and productivity, not to mention the cost to building ownership. Notice I didn't say housing, since all buildings experience the same force of the elements. and different occupancies does not come into my forumulae. I would like to know more about this hebel block product....can you provide any http://www.addresses.com? Thank you, in advance. Richard Moore. CEO Eco-Systems Unlimited - Sustaining Safe and Healthy Occupancies Development Management, Building Systems Analysis, Indoor Air Environment Specialists, Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 09:19:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA08878 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:19:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA20082 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:17:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19246; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:11:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:03:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18512 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:02:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18506 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:02:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA8-p18.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.210]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA10336 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:09:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34F2D354.3E18@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:04:04 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Societal Costs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2156 Bion, Nicely extrapolated! I find no fault with the projections as they stand, as you have mentioned there will be numerous other "hidden" costs. A couple that occur to me are: How much of this 9,000 sq. mi. are presently productive crop land? Besides methane, how many other environmental "toxins" will be released into the air and water? Some that leap to mind are petroleum products galore, PCB's from transformers etc., indutrial pollutants from mfg, heavy metals....... Anyone have a feel for these kinds of numbers? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 10:11:08 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11009 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:11:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03460 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:09:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21245; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:02:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:58:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA20924 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:58:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.33]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA20916 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:58:17 -0500 (EST) From: NMBlues@aol.com Received: from NMBlues@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id SDXMa20690 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:03:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <20eeb2db.34f2e159@aol.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:03:50 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: personal hebel research Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2157 Listers: Marc R said >>Hebel has benefits - noise, durability, vermin-proof, etc. I just wouldn't >>assume it to be R-30. As someone who has designed 2 of these Hebel houses in the generally mild generally sunny environs of eastern NC, I concur with his statement. I stress to my clients who come requesting this product that the claimed performance r- value will not be a constant but I do consider it a better choice for those who want stucco in our very muggy climate. How it performs beyond Maryland or Virginia would be of concern to me---this is one of the other major issues, in addition to thermal mass that continues to pop up in discussions----indigenous building or architecture---not everything works every where---there is no one final solution. thank god or your higher power, for we would be out of jobs if there were. Dona Stankus, AIA new email: dsarchitect@mindspring.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 11:03:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13126 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:03:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA19004 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:01:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22582; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:24:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:20:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22069 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:20:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22063 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:20:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA33078; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:25:31 -0700 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:25:31 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Office buildings (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2158 Dear Colleagues: Anyone interested in helping this student with a few words of wisdom is welcomed to get in touch with him directly. Thank you for your consideration. Jorg Ostrowski ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:51:50 +0800 (HKT) From: Yung Siu Lun To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Subject: Re: EEBA-L: Office buildings (FWD) (fwd) Hello Mr. Ostrowski, Now, I do want to ask about the future trend of energy efficiency technology, particularly offices. Will it expand to other areas, for example, building envelope, or is there any programmes that will help calculate energy usage before one actually install the fixtures? Also, the peoples attitude towards energy efficiency is also of interest to me. Is there any obstacles in implementing energy efficiencies in your countries? Do people have misconceptions about energy efficiency with energy conservation? Thank you for reading my mail. Allan Yung ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 11:03:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13133 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:03:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA19017 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:01:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22280; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:17:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21713 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:17:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21709 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:16:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.198.153] (usr1a5.burl.sover.net [207.136.198.153]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19470 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:23:03 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:20:16 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Studs & Framing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2159 >After reading a bunch of notes pro and con on steel vs wood studs, I > >have a question - what WOULD be an environmentally sustainable, >non-budget-busting, healthy material for framing? And flooring? Hi Sharon, You're asking some pretty big questions here. On the steel vs. wood issue, a detailed analysis of this comparison that we published in 1994 is available on our web site at http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/ under "feature articles". On the bigger question, I think it's important to point out that no one really knows what is "sustainable" over the long term, as we really don't understand enough about ecological systems and our place in them to make this assessment. (Realizing this a couple of years ago, we changed the wording of EBN's subtitle from "environmentally sustainable" to "environmentally responsible". So, without claiming to be sustainable, we can try to minimize environmental impacts in our material choices. But it soon becomes clear that more depends on how and where you use the materials than on what they are. For example, steel framing may be a poor choice for exterior walls in a cold climate because they conduct heat and bypass the insulation. But for non-load-bearing interior walls, where thermal performance isn't an issue and lighter-gauge steel can be used (less material), they may be an excellent choice. So, without knowing where you are, and what type of structure you're planning to build, responses to your question would not be very meaningful. You can look through many of the resources available on our Web site and elsewhere, and search the REDI guide and other green building directories for ideas of environmentally preferable products. Our annotated bibliography of green building information resources is available from our office and will be online soon--that should give you lots more resources to work with. Then you'll have to analyze your own situation and see what makes sense. Good luck! Nadav Malin Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 11:03:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13122 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:03:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18997 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:01:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23009; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:30:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:26:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22677 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:26:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22672 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KuQ18262; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:30:50 EST To: imperatrix@mindspring.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:30:20 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Studs & Framing Message-ID: <19980224.103118.9206.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199802240504.AAA22284@camel14.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-9 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2160 Hi, Re best material for flooring - from a sustainable standpoint and from a durability standpoint - cork or bamboo. Esthetically, bamboo is a knockout and vastly more renewable than wood. Both are low tox - especially if the cork is sealed. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 11:03:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13139 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:03:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA19009 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:01:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22310; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:21:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:17:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21724 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:17:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21720 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:17:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.198.153] (usr1a5.burl.sover.net [207.136.198.153]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA19506 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:23:08 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2363220@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:29:27 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: Hebel and other AAC block Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2161 Backing up Marc's point, here is a quote from a 1996 EBN article on AAC: "Actual side-by-side tests just completed in Pittsburgh have borne this out. Two identical houses were built, one with 8" AAC walls using material from North American Cellular Concrete and the other with a 2x4 stud frame and fiberglass insulation. Over the course of a year, heating energy requirements for the two homes were nearly identical, while the AAC home used about 5% less energy for summertime cooling than the frame house. In a Pittsburgh climate a 2x4 frame house is far from current energy-efficiency goals, so the AAC house likewise falls short. AAC houses are less prone to air leakage than frame houses, however, so in temperate and hot climates, they represent an improvement over typical construction systems." You can read the full article at: http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Product_Reviews/AAConcrete.html Nadav Environmental Building News >Jim suggests that Hebel (autoclaved aerated concrete) has an R value of 32. >They actually claim an R value of 9 for their 8 inch material, and then they >claim it performs equally to a stud wall of R 30. > >This can occur in very mild climates where the average outdoor temperature >swings around the confort temperature. The thermal capacitance evens out the >temperature swings, and the indoors sees the average rather than the extreme >temperature. > >In a climate where the outdoor temperature stays below the comfort temperature >for a significant time, this effect is essentially nil. Mass will help a bit >in a house with enough glass to take advantage of passive solar gains, but a >house with a true R-20 wall will out-perform the passive/massive house >with the >R-9 wall, all ou=ther things being equal, in all but perhaps the sunniest >locations. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 11:04:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13201 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:04:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA19349 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:03:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24118; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:51:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:47:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23751 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:46:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23735 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:46:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA02182; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:51:57 -0800 Message-ID: <34F2EBCC.66C2BCB5@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 07:48:28 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Societal Costs References: <34F2D354.3E18@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2162 I agree that it was a great assessment. One further cost is desctruction and contamination of habitat as coastal areas are both marine breeding and feeding grounds. I also remember that there has been problems in Europe because of extensive construction along river banks and high water levels in recent years. These problems become exacerbated when ground that traditionally deals with flooding and erosion (marsh, etc.) becomes 'stabilized' for construction purposes. Hopefully we will derive a better understanding of watershed, groundwater and ersosion problems. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Bion, > > Nicely extrapolated! I find no fault with the projections as they stand, > as you have mentioned there will be numerous other "hidden" costs. A > couple that occur to me are: How much of this 9,000 sq. mi. are > presently productive crop land? Besides methane, how many other > environmental "toxins" will be released into the air and water? Some > that leap to mind are petroleum products galore, PCB's from transformers > etc., indutrial pollutants from mfg, heavy metals....... Anyone have a > feel for these kinds of numbers? > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 11:19:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13681 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:19:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23304 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:17:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25475; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:11:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:06:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25126 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:06:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25121 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:06:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from homer.ampsc.com (fiberoptic.ampsc.com [207.102.161.103]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA12824; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:17:45 -0800 Message-ID: <34F2F0F2.313A@ampsc.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:10:26 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Patrick Pierquet , imperatrix@mindspring.com CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Studs & framing References: <00059E33.1762@us.teltech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2163 There is a preception that wood is the perfect building material, since it lives in our own environment, and we relate to wood and wood products, as nature does to us all. However nice wood is, as a building material, wood is not sustaining,and after 30+ years as a builder and developer, I have shifted towards concrete aggregate products, tiles, stucco, metal, glass, rock, stone, etc. as the preferred materials. Why??????? Very simple, they won't rot, nor feed contaminations resulting from failures in the building envelope. Richard. Eco-Systems Unlimited - Sustaining Safe and Healthy Occupancies Development Management, Building Systems Analysis, Indoor Air Environment Specialists, Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 11:33:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14153 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:33:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA27386 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:32:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26287; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:25:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:21:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25937 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:21:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25923 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:21:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.162.253.72] (d52.best1.net [205.162.253.72]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA18048 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:27:39 -0800 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:28:09 -0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Studs & framing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2164 > > Sharon - I think wood in all its forms is a WONDERFUL material, very > environmentally friendly. It is the only building material created > largely by solar energy(straw is similar to wood, in this respect), > and is also the only building material that removes carbon dioxide > from the atmosphere, thus slowing global warming Wood, as a building product, will only remove CO2 from the atmosphere if we live in tree houses (and some do!). Cut it down, it's atmospheric advantage is rendered moot. Nevertheless, if all other considerations are addressed (transportation, harvesting methods, optimal use, waste management), and if stick framing is the desired method of exterior wall construction, wood is great stuff, and certainly more aesthetically pleasing to work with than light gauge steel. ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 11:39:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14368 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29028 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:37:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26772; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:31:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:27:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA26385 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:26:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ipinc.ipinc.net (ns.fta.com [205.139.102.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26381 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:26:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from hysave (ip-port-cs3-54.ipinc.net [206.29.173.182]) by ipinc.ipinc.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA05605; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:33:19 -0800 Message-ID: <34F2F8F5.44DA@fta.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:44:37 -0800 From: Russ Smith Reply-To: hysave@fta.com Organization: Hy-Save, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: commercial building retrofit References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2165 Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > You said:"The one BIG item you may have overlooked is the percent of the total > building load that is consumed by the refrigeration systems. On average the > refrigeration system in a supermarket today represents at least 30% of the total > energy used and as such MUST be high on the list of areas to be up graded to the > best possible operating condition. Our technologies, available to you world wide, > can help you provide your clients a 20 to 30% savings when applied to the > refrigeration and or air conditioning systems. We normally see a simple return on > investment (ROI) for our projects in under 2 years plus other benefits > _______________________________________________________________________________ > Russ:Thanks for the post. Are you referring to "Power Planners" or similar > "Ideal Voltage Controllers" (IVC)? > No Jorg, I am talking about improving the refrigeration cycle. Please see http://www.hysave.com/enthalpy.html and http://www.hysave.com/hyashrae.html I will grant you that cleaning up the power supply is a good thing, as is a proper control system. However, as an engineer, I'm sure you understand the basic laws of thermal dynamics and that one does not improve the efficiency of a machine by turning it off. While it is true that turning a machine off when it is not needed saves energy, it is also true that when cooling is called for one cannot simply turn the compressor off. As I have stated in previous posts, Hy-Save Inc. is a manufacturer. We build liquid refrigerant pumps. We have been teaching our industry to employ these pumps for the purpose of improving the efficiency of the refrigeration cycle for the past 14 years. Please see "about Hy-Save" at http://www.hysave.com/hsabout.html While there is a great deal more information available to you at our web site, http://www.hysave.com, I will not bore you or the list with a guided tour in this post. I will however try to give you a simple example of how our system improves the refrigeration cycle.----- Please imagine for a moment that you need to get water up to the second floor of a building. Now imagine that to do so you will use an air compressor to pressurize a tank full of water on the ground floor that will provide the flow needed on the second floor. Not very efficient! Of course you would use a water pump to move the water. In essence the above is what the refrigeration industry has been doing for all these years. With the exception of ammonia systems, the industry has been using a compressor to pressurize a vapor to deliver a liquid to the metering devise. In summery, we improve the refrigeration cycle by using a liquid pump to move the liquid refrigerant. This enables us to reset to condenser controls to a lower temperature/pressure thus reducing the compressor lift which in turn reduces the electric power used by the compressor. I hope that you find this to be of help in understanding our technologies. If you or anyone else have additional questions I would be pleased to answer them. Sincerely, Russ Smith Hy-Save Inc. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 11:54:45 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14846 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:54:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04254 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:52:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27495; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:46:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:42:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27195 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:42:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27190 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:42:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA65408; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:31:51 -0700 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 06:31:51 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "P.W.Heijmen" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: CO2 TAX in the Netherlands? In-Reply-To: <34F2A4AF.CC0EA8F3@bk.tudelft.nl> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2166 Peter: Does the Netherlands have a CO2 tax on fossil fuels now? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 13:19:59 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18437 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:19:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25056 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:18:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04109; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:12:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:08:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03733 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:07:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03726 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:07:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15062 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:13:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:13:56 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Hebel/AAC To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199802241709.MAA28856@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2167 On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Jim_Hartzfeld wrote: > > Why studs? Though not an expert on this subject. I am intrigued by an old > product now relatively new in the US, Hebel Block. They claim this aerated > cement block has great thermal and noise insulation (>R-32 for external > walls) and tremendous fire and pest resistance. I have personally cut it I'd like to echo and reinforce some of the comments made about Aerated Autoclaved Cocnrete AAC products like the Hebel block. Hebel's German "Handbook for Home Construction" rates the 400 kg/m^3 product at R1.1 per inch. This includes "normal" moisture content, since the German standard requires that the R-value be tested at a reasonable inservice moisture content, whereas the ASTM standard allows oven-dried samples to be tested. I would be interested to know what the American Hebel R-value is based on. As the density increases the R-value plummets! Make sure the R-value quoted matches the density of the product sold. (I beleive there are some 320 kg/m^3 products now made but they are quite weak and brittle). Unfortunately the embodied energy is one of the highest of massive wall materials. Ask Hebel about the energy content of the autoclaving process and the aluminum foaming agents etc. There is less embodied energy in a solid brick wall! The values I have (from Germany, they will likely be higher in the US) say about 750 kWh per tonne, approaching that of cement (cement is not really bad since it is used in small amounts. A wall of pure cement bags would be 25% worse than an AAC wall) AAC is widely used in Europe. It is a really neat product, pretty easy to work, a decent amount of thermal mass, great termite resistance etc. But even in Europe (from whence Hebel comes) research is continuing on solving problems with the coating systems on exposed AAC. If the AAC has a cladding to keep it dry, no problem. Stucco right on it and whoa, problems can develop. The proper sophisticated design can solve these problems but climate and material properties must be considered or moisture problems result. Siporex, the Swedish AAC company, had a disaster in Canada after selling roof planks for 5 years or so. They left the market when their product failed in droves -- I am sure Hebel will assure you they have solved this problem (which is mostly due to hygric fatigue) AAC can be an excellent product, and in hot and arid climates it is a viable option for performance and durability. Since the energy consumption is likely to be similiar or even greater than other massive wall systems, its much higher embodied energy is a concern for me however. Termite resistant and recycled insulated concrete forms such as the Canadian/Swiss Durisol system are often better even in hot/arid climates -- much less embodied energy, double the R-value, same mass, fire, insect resistance, more moisture resistant and less cost. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 13:21:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18512 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:21:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25499 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:19:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03199; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:56:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:52:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02784 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:52:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02780 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:52:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.122] (ub15.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.112]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA10324 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:58:48 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802241213_MC2-3488-37E7@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:05:27 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Studs & Framing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2168 >Speaking as someone hired by the steel industry to produce a conference on >building green with steel (see more at sustainable-steel.com, March 18-21 >in Orlando), the answers are more complicated than some responses I have >seen to this message. ... When you start looking at ways to offer a mass-produced low waste >affordable housing product, steel has potential. > >Greg Thomas >Conference Manager >Sustainable Steel Hi Greg, First, I appreciate you so clearly identifying your connection (financial and life-energy) to the steel stud. Second, I like the things you said about steel. Third, my experience with steel is mostly in commercial structures. The major difficulties I've seen have to do with the high thermal conductivity of steel. Thermal detailing becomes very important or condensation, snow melt-ice dam, thermal comfort, corrosion and excessive energy use problems result. For example, screwing through foam to steel can result in problems in colder climates. Angles behave thermally as fins. I've measured tmeperatures in the field and modeled a number of problems. This may be part of an arguement for factory production. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 13:21:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18518 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:21:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25522 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:19:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02383; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:46:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:42:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01927 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:42:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01916 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:42:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa21.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.150]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA07511 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:48:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34F306B8.D80@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:43:20 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: After the Flood Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2169 Alex has a very good point here, we are looking at this event as if was going arrive in giant tidal wave, leaving no chance to prepare. I realized after my last post that many of the pollution problems I pointed to would be relatively easy to avoid given some time and forethought. The issue of cropland still remains, unless the dikes and pumps Alex refers to are indeed feasible. And of course, the scurge of the universe, the Army Corps of Engineers, will be delighted with the opportunity to attack nature on an even grander scale. What is this "Dutch Week" on the list, I like it. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 13:21:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18523 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:21:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25545 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:19:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01580; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:39:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:34:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00952 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:34:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00938 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:34:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.122] (ub15.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.112]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA05637 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:40:57 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34F2EBCC.66C2BCB5@cow-net.com> References: <34F2D354.3E18@dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:39:41 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Societal Costs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2170 Just another thought on raising sea level two feet. Someone, a bit inland will suddenly find themselves in possession of beach front property. This will greatly increase the value of the property. During the 1970's this dynamic played a decisive role in the Tellico dam - snail darter case. Although at one time there was a federal court order to not only stop construction, but to remove the work that had already been completed on the dam so that it would never be built, there's a dam there now. A new lake in a land of lakes. New formerly low value land now worth much more as lake-front property. It's better that I make $2 off something than if someone else makes $4 - "who makes the money" is a valuable analysis tool. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 13:21:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18529 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:21:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25560 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:19:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01650; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:39:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:35:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01009 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:35:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00990 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:34:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA04665 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:39:11 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 00059E83; Tue, 24 Feb 98 11:29:00 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:39:15 -0600 Message-ID: <00059E83.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Studs & Framing To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2171 Jim wrote: Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:42:44 -0500 From: Jim_Hartzfeld@mail.ifsia.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Studs & Framing Why studs? Though not an expert on this subject. I am intrigued by an old product now relatively new in the US, Hebel Block....... Jim - This type of material does have some attractive qualities. However, it is VERY high in "embodied energy", if that is a concern to you. Hebel Block, and similar materials, involve a step whereby the material is AUTOCLAVED(very high temperatures = very high energy cost) for up to 12 hours. So, like all materials, it has its downside, too. - Patrick Pierquet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 13:21:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18535 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25572 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02145; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:43:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:39:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01594 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:39:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from msmail.co.alameda.ca.us (msmail.co.alameda.ca.us [166.107.250.98]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01578 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:39:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802241739.MAA01578@solstice.crest.org> Received: by msmail.co.alameda.ca.us with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:48:51 -0800 From: "Lin, Paul, GSA-Recycle" To: Snyder.Robin@epamail.epa.gov Cc: greenbuilding Subject: RE: GBlist: flat roof replacement Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:43:00 -0800 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2172 There's a fairly new product (1991?) called Uni-Seal, which might be useful. It could be used to coat a cheap roofing substrate to make it highly durable and waterproof. It's a composite of PolyUrethane and recycled tires (30-40%), and has some pretty remarkable properties, at least according to their info. You can visit their site at www.rsi-uniseal.com/ I haven't had direct experience with the product, but some users include BMW, 3M, others. ---------- From: Snyder.Robin@epamail.epa.gov To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: flat roof replacement Date: Monday, February 23, 1998 8:57AM I've checked the archives, but I couldn't find anything particularly applicable.... I've got a flat roof that must be replaced. I can't afford a metal roof, so I'm looking at other options. So far, I've gotten a quote for a rubberized asphalt roof and a "Miracote" roof. I looked at the Miracote website, it wasn't very helpful. Is there anyone out there with experience with either of these types of roofs? Or, do you know where a layperson could "bone-up" on flat roofs so as to make the best investment? Thanks for any help you can provide. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 13:25:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18662 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:25:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26976 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:23:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01050; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:35:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:31:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00606 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:31:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00599 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:31:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA04641 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:35:12 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 00059E82; Tue, 24 Feb 98 11:25:00 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:35:07 -0600 Message-ID: <00059E82.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Studs & framing To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2173 Greg wrote: Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:12:38 -0500 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: GBlist: Studs & Framing Speaking as someone hired by the steel industry to produce a conference on building green with steel (see more at sustainable-steel.com, March 18-21 in Orlando), the answers are more complicated than some responses I have seen to this message...... 2. Steel has the advantage of being reusable and recyclable...... Greg Thomas Conference Manager Sustainable Steel Greg: while it is true that steel studs are "recyclable", the act of recycling ALWAYS results in emissions of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. In addition, according to the American Iron & Steel Institute, the maximum amount of recycled material that a stud can contain is 28-30 percent. The other 70 percent must come from virgin ore. The steel from studs comes from "basic oxygen" furnaces, which can only operate at 28-30 percent recycled material. The other type of furnace, electric arc, can use 100 percent recycled material BUT the resultant steel cannot be used for studs because of its material properties. Sooooo.....Unless there is some great advance in steel technology, studs will never contain more than 30 percent recycled material. A thought to ponder, I think...... - Patrick Pierquet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 13:25:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18666 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:25:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26988 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:23:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29576; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:13:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:09:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28823 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:09:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28818 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:09:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.122] (ub25.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.122]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA28565 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:15:27 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01bd40e7$806d1f20$cc61d6cc@home.efn.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:22:06 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Societal Cost Estimates and indices of well being Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2174 >>The distressing thing about our economic system is that all the costs Bion >>proposes would be net additions to the Gross Domestic Product. Therefore, >>if he's right, a 2 foot sea level rise would be a major shot in the arm to >>the U.S. economy... at least according to economists. > >That just goes to show what a silly measure of a country's well-being GDP >is. Two jet airliners could collide mid-air. Hundreds of people die. It >would cost millions of dollars (not even counting insurance payoffs). But >the whole tragedy would be seen as beneficial from the standpoint of GDP. >That's why social indicators need to be factored into any strictly economic >measure of a country's well-being. > >Robert Bolman Some bits and pieces on GDP. I recall reading that GNP, the ancestor of GDP, was first developed by the Allies at the beginning of WWII as an estimate of what could be contributed by each nation's economy to the war effort. If that's remotely true, then I wouldn't expect it to be an indicator of well being. There are a number of alternative economic indices which make a better attempt at estimating well-being. Redefining Progress in San Francisco has developed the Genuine Progress Indicator (GPI), and American Demographics has developed an Index of Well Being. Both of these are overall, single number indices, like the GDP. There are other, more narrowly focused indicators like the Recreational Quality Index from the Recreation Roundtable in DC and Prevention magazine's health and safety oriented Prevention Index. I subscribe to American Demographics on and off. It's geared towards finding markets and exploiting them, but they do a good job of collecting useful information. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 13:25:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18671 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26994 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:23:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29450; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:12:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:08:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28697 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:08:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from arl-img-7.compuserve.com (arl-img-7.compuserve.com [149.174.217.137]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28692 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:07:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by arl-img-7.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.10) id MAA23614; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:13:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:12:38 -0500 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: GBlist: Studs & Framing To: "INTERNET:imperatrix@mindspring.com" , "[unknown]" , Greg Crawford Message-ID: <199802241213_MC2-3488-37E7@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA28693 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2175 Message text written by INTERNET:imperatrix@mindspring.com > After reading a bunch of notes pro and con on steel vs wood studs, I have a question - what WOULD be an environmentally sustainable, non-budget-busting, healthy material for framing? And flooring? < Speaking as someone hired by the steel industry to produce a conference on building green with steel (see more at sustainable-steel.com, March 18-21 in Orlando), the answers are more complicated than some responses I have seen to this message. 1. As stated previously on this forum, it is the energy of utilization (energy consumption caused by the use of the building) that accounts for about 95% of the CO2 impact. Materials selection differences are small and when you do a full Life Cycle Assessment, the difference between wood and steel is not very large. When you take into account the much lower energy impact of its subsequent lives after recycling, the impacts are even lower. Issues like the biodiversity impacts of clear cutting and the effect of non-point sources of pollution make the issue even more complicated. When pricing, you should probably compare sustainably harvested wood to steel studs. 2. Steel has the advantage of being reusable and recyclable. In fact, the Dutch government has a new initiative to design buildings that are adaptable, have reusable components and are made from recyclable materials. Given the rate of change in our society, and the large amount of waste generated by the production of construction materials and actual construction of buildings, this makes great sense. 3. The thermal conductivity of steel can be dealt with in a number of ways. Exterior foam insulation is the best bet. Thermal studs and combinations of steel with foam, wood, and other materials are also under development. One of the interesting things about using exterior foam is the potential for making the foam the air/vapor barrier. There has been some Canadian research (as per an article early last year in Energy Design Update) that showed that sealing foam to the framing saved $1000-$2000 (combined labor and materials) over doing a well sealed interior air/vapor barrier. They also indicated that having the air/vapor barrier further into the wall was not a problem. I think this needs more research but looks very promising, especially for mild or hot climates. 4. Steel offers the ability to produce a very standardized product. You can use software to design a custom building with reduced amounts of steel and then produce a materials order that can be cut to size with very little waste. When you start looking at ways to offer a mass-produced low waste affordable housing product, steel has potential. Greg Thomas Conference Manager Sustainable Steel ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 13:25:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18680 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:25:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27011 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:23:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28535; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:04:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:00:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28218 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:00:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28181 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:59:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.114] (pm3a17.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.207]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA24045; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:05:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:05:25 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980223194355.006f3b88@popd.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Bion D. Howard" From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Societal Cost Estimates of Sea-level increase Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2176 Regarding the economic costs of sea level rise: While I too found Bion's analysis quite interesting, I think we may be underestimating the drive to out-engineer nature. Much of Holland is below the mean sea level. They spend millions--possibly billions--of dollars to keep the oceans out with dikes and dams and pumps. But they probably don't spend trillions. In trying to put a value on a sea level rise that is projected to slowly rise over many decades, I think a more realistic economic analysis would be the cost of diking. While tremendously expensive and probably ecologically devastating, it seems the more likely scenario, and I suspect it would be a lot less expensive. I was reminded of this last weekend when I saw the hurricane gates in Providence Rhode Island. These, along with dikes, were built after the 1938 hurricane to protect the downtown. Alex Wilson Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 13:25:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18676 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:25:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27001 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:23:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28120; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:58:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:54:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27806 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:54:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27800 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:54:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.122] (ub25.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.122]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA24556 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:00:54 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:07:32 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: GB List: styrofoam Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2177 >hi, > >does anyone know the conductivity of styrofoam? > >thanks! > > Moto Tohda > Hi Moto, I'm guessing you want the thermal conductivity. Expanded styrene foam runs around 0.24 to 0.26 BTU*IN/Hr/Sq.ft./deg. F and extruded styrene is more like 0.20. Depends some on density fpr the expanded stuff and blowing agent and age for the extruded stuff - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 14:46:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA21561 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19078 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:44:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08205; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:38:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:34:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07891 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:34:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07887 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:34:16 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 1KPSa27161 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:39:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6964a458.34f32209@aol.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:39:51 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Windsor Windows Cellular PVC Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2178 Another call for help. Has anyone used or heard of Windsor Windows (North Carolina & Iowa production facilities) They have a double hung using a cellular PVC material that the claim is paintable. comes with a seven year paint warranty. Great frame and insulated glass warranties. Relatively attractive detailing. The infiltration ratings are excellent. Almost hard to believe. The window appears to be an attractive alternative to wood in many ways for certain applications, but having been a Guinea pig in the past, I figure I'd see if anyone else has already taken the plunge on this one. I trust warranties when I know who stands behind them and never heard of these folks. I've never heard of paintable PVC or cellular PVC. Thanks in advance for any feedback, Fred. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 16:22:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA25529 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:22:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA19019 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:20:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA13831; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:14:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:09:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA13190 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from kramer.pcisys.net (kramer.pcisys.net [207.76.102.252]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA13180 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:09:22 -0500 (EST) From: moxvox@pcisys.net Received: from [207.204.247.77] (bart77.pcisys.net [207.204.247.77]) by kramer.pcisys.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) via SMTP id OAA25455 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:15:26 -0700 (MST) env-from (moxvox@pcisys.net) Message-Id: <199802242115.OAA25455@kramer.pcisys.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:26:40 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Lumber stats Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2179 Hi all--I've just spent a couple of unproductive hours on the net in search of (what seems to be) a very basic statistic, so I'm throwing it out to you pros. What's the average amount of lumber used, in board feet, in the average house built these days? Any pointers to overlooked sources of info would be very much appreciated. Thanks...................Sara. Sara Mock Real generosity toward the future moxvox@pcisys.net lies in giving all www.moxvox.com/straw.html to the present. /\ _____----------------^^^/\/ /\^^^^^----______________________ A Camus ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 16:58:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA27182 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:58:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA00591 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:56:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15405; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:50:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:46:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA14941 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:46:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from teal.cr.usgs.gov (teal.cr.usgs.gov [159.189.176.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA14937 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:46:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from brdsmtp2.cr.usgs.gov by teal.cr.usgs.gov (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA19325; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:52:01 -0700 Received: from ccMail by brdsmtp2.cr.usgs.gov (IMA Internet Exchange 2.11 Enterprise) id 00060833; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 14:50:01 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:46:08 -0700 Message-ID: <00060833.@usgs.gov> From: FROG@usgs.gov (FROG) Subject: GBlist: Ceiling Tiles as Floor Insulation Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2180 We have the opportunity to get a near unlimited quantity of used Armstong 2 X 2 ceiling tiles. These tiles are made from compresed fiberglass and have an r-value of 4, they are 1 inch thick. We plan to layer them between the joists with a vapor barrier on the top of the joists and tvek on the bottom with reused lath holding up the tiles. Anyone dome something similar? Got a better way of using them as insulation? sam 0< 0- 0< 0- 0< 0- 0< ->>) ->>) ->>) ->>) ->>) ->>) ->>) L L L L L L L Sam Droege FROG@USGS.GOV w 301-497-5840 h 410-798-6759 fax 301-497-5784 PWRC, 12100 Beech Forest Dr., Laurel, Md 20708-4038 Http://www.mp1-pwrc.usgs.gov Although to penetrate into the intimate mysteries of nature and thence to learn the true causes of phenomena is not allowed to us, nevertheless it can happen that a certain fictive hypothesis may suffice for explaining many phenomena. Leonhard Euler, 1748 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 17:02:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA27403 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:02:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA01786 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:00:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15802; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:49:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA15215 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:49:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA15205 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:49:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from JOSEPHCH (207-172-241-182.s55.as7.bsd.erols.com [207.172.241.182]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA25692 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:55:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:55:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802242155.QAA25692@smtp1.erols.com> X-Sender: usbt@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding From: Joe Charlson Subject: Re: GBlist: Studs & Framing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2181 >The major difficulties I've seen have to do with the high thermal conductivity of steel. Thermal detailing becomes very >important or condensation, snow melt-ice dam, thermal comfort, corrosion and excessive energy use problems > result. >3. The thermal conductivity of steel can be dealt with in a number of ways. Exterior foam insulation is the best bet. > Thermal studs and combinations of steel with foam, wood, and other materials are also under development. Speaking as a manufacturer (USBT) of a cost-effective thermal solution for both steel and wood framing, I would encourage people interested in these issues to consider the topic of applying the rigid insulation material only to the framing rather than using full sheets. This insulated framing(tm) concept saves money for equivalent thermal resistance levels (an "apple-to-apples comparison") and offers the opportunity of filling a deeper wall/roof/ceiling cavity with a more environmentally friendly insulation material. Joe Charlson ****************************************** Joseph A. Charlson USBT, United States Building Technology, Inc. http://www.erols.com/usbt Framingham, MA USA Tel: 508-424-0055 Fax: 508-424-0050 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 17:43:06 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA29911 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:43:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14222 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:41:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18060; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:34:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:30:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA17399 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:30:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17393 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:30:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA01437 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:35:14 -0500 Message-id: <2370290@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 24 Feb 98 17:42:29 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Studs & Framing To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2182 --- You wrote: Speaking as a manufacturer (USBT) of a cost-effective thermal solution for both steel and wood framing, I would encourage people interested in these issues to consider the topic of applying the rigid insulation material only to the framing rather than using full sheets. --- end of quoted material --- Hello Joe - This is a good idea. Have you solved the dilemma of what goes over the doubled stud, the sole plate, the bottom plate, the headers, the corners, etc.? It seems to me that the "clear wall" solution is always the easiest to devise. Have you devised a solution which will be durable (reference corrosion issues in steel stud walls with small amounts of insulation, and the literature on steel stud/brick veneer walls, some of which recommends against using a brick tie fastener which is only held on by a screw into the steel stud, since it is only held by one thread)? How is the wall braced against racking? Marc Rosenbaum PS: I have a client who is interested in using steel framing for a number of reasons, but I've been very reluctant for all of the reasons Terry mentioned. But I'm open to new solutions... Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 17:44:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA29997 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:44:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15131 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:43:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18307; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:32:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA17621 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17614 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:32:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.43] (ua10.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.43]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA29837 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:38:24 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00060833.@usgs.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:45:00 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Ceiling Tiles as Floor Insulation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2183 > We have the opportunity to get a near unlimited quantity of used > Armstong 2 X 2 ceiling tiles. These tiles are made from compresed > fiberglass and have an r-value of 4, they are 1 inch thick. We plan > to layer them between the joists with a vapor barrier on the top of > the joists and tvek on the bottom with reused lath holding up the > tiles. > > Anyone dome something similar? Got a better way of using them as > insulation? > > sam > > > 0< 0- 0< 0- 0< 0- 0< >->>) ->>) ->>) ->>) ->>) ->>) ->>) > L L L L L L L > >Sam Droege FROG@USGS.GOV Sam, Generally, it sounds like a reasonable plan, but labor-intensive. What's the climate like where you're using them? What's beneath the floor? Crawlspace? Piers? If it's a crawlspace, can you attach them to the crawlspace walls? I've found that sealing crawlspace vents, putting down a groundcover and insulating the walls keeps crawlspaces drier than venting them in almost all circumstances. The dynamics are documented in print by Bill Rose in a ASHRAE document. Something like technical note number 10. Also good documentation in a paper in the ACEEE summer study proceedings from '94 or '96. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 18:02:24 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA00821 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:02:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA21277 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19238; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:54:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:50:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA18897 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:50:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18889 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:50:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip26.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.45]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA168 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:55:55 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980224180543.0072f320@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:05:43 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Societal Cost Estimates of Sea-level increase In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.32.19980223194355.006f3b88@popd.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2184 John McPhee wrote a fascinating book on the topic, "The Control of Nature" (Noonday Press, 1989), that delves into the tamini of the Mississippi (and I thought I was the only one who didn't want to visit the city... as it turns out, the River doesn't either), the wildfire/landslide cycle in California, and "feezing" lava flows in Iceland and in Hawaii with seawater. In some parts of New Orleans, you need to take an elevator up from street level to reach the river... in the mountains east of L.A., sap and resin oozing from brushfires tends to Scotchguard the soil, giving it the bearing capacity of Jello during any subsequent rain... and so on. Some of the most expensive real estate on the planet is unreliable. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 18:07:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA00989 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:07:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA22840 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:05:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19615; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:59:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:55:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA19299 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:55:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19294 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 17:55:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from JOSEPHCH (207-172-241-182.s55.as7.bsd.erols.com [207.172.241.182]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA20469 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:01:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:01:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802242301.SAA20469@smtp1.erols.com> X-Sender: usbt@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Joe Charlson Subject: Re: GBlist: Studs & Framing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2185 Hello Mark, Thanks for your interest. Here are some answers to your questions. >Have you solved the dilemma of what goes over the doubled >stud, the sole plate, the bottom plate, the headers, the corners, etc.? The entire frame is generally extended with structural foam including the headers, plates, tracks, etc... >Have you devised a solution which will be durable (reference corrosion issues >in steel stud walls with small amounts of insulation, Yes, polystyrene and galvanized steel are extremely corrosion resistant materials. However, the aim is not small amounts of insulation, its maximizing the quantity of the insulation material of your choice in the cavities. >and the literature on steel stud/brick veneer walls, some of which recommends against using a brick >tie fastener which is only held on by a screw into the steel stud, since it is >only held by one thread)? Not sure what you are referring to on this one. > How is the wall braced against racking? A variety of options include: * applying the on the interior surface of the building's external frame (just do not add the drywall's shear strength contribution to the overall load bearing capacity calculations until the shear contributions are confirmed); * cross bracing ("X") on shear/wind load walls; * applying between the structural sheathing and the frame; contact the manufacturer for recommended fastener size and schedule for your particular assembly. Joe Charlson ****************************************** Joseph A. Charlson USBT, United States Building Technology, Inc. http://www.erols.com/usbt Framingham, MA USA Tel: 508-424-0055 Fax: 508-424-0050 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 18:54:08 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA02648 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:54:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA07080 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:52:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21441; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:46:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:41:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA21101 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:41:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21093 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:41:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.162.253.72] (d65.best1.net [205.162.253.85]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA28570; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:47:16 -0800 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:47:46 -0100 To: Terry Brennan From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: Ceiling Tiles as Floor Insulation Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2186 >If it's a crawlspace, can you attach them to the crawlspace walls? I've >found that sealing crawlspace vents, putting down a groundcover and >insulating the walls keeps crawlspaces drier than venting them in almost >all circumstances. I remeber once, after spending $8000 of someone else's money fixing a frnot entry porch that had decayed due to water and lack of crawl space ventialtion, I went back and double checked my last few jobs for adequate ventilation. Found one that had insufficient venting plus a pin hole in some copper. Lots of mold, and early signs of damage. Luckily I got to it in time. Fixed the leak, added more evnts, went back later and everything was dry. Sealing crawlspace vents seems contrary to every bone in my old contractor body. What of sub surface moisture, etc etc. I will check out the ASHRAE stuff if I can find it. The dynamics are documented in print by Bill Rose in a >ASHRAE document. Something like technical note number 10. Also good >documentation in a paper in the ACEEE summer study proceedings from '94 or >'96. - Terry ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 19:09:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA03100 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:09:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA11234 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:07:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA22184; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:01:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:57:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA21868 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:56:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21863 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA10-p53.dreamscape.com [209.4.252.245]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id TAA25973 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:03:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34F35E9D.D39@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 18:58:21 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Ceiling tile Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2187 Steve, The poly ground cover sealed to the walls is the difference between what you have seen and what Terry's recommending. without that of course you're going to have big trouble, but seling out the groung moisture is often a much more reliable solution than unreliable vents. To often microclimatic effects can foil the most generous venting scheme. We have used this system numerous times with perfect success, I have personally reinspect several. This is assuming no plumbing leaks, ventilation seems like a poor choice for those in any event. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 19:15:17 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA03267 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:15:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA12760 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:13:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA23009; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:07:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:02:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA22314 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:02:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22299 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:02:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA10-p53.dreamscape.com [209.4.252.245]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id TAA27734 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:08:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34F35FE9.22D6@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:03:53 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Ceiling Tile (slightly editted) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2188 Steve, The poly ground cover sealed to the walls is the difference between what you have seen and what Terry's recommending. Without that of course you're going to have big trouble, but sealing out the groung moisture is often a much more reliable solution than vents. To often microclimatic effects can foil the most generous venting scheme. We have used this system numerous times with perfect success, I have personally reinspected several. This is assuming no plumbing leaks, ventilation seems like a poor choice for those in any event. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 19:15:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA03292 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:15:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA12880 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:13:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA23053; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:07:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:03:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA22373 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:02:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from padauk.arc.cmu.edu (root@PADAUK.ARC.CMU.EDU [128.2.85.91]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22363 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:02:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from padauk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by padauk.arc.cmu.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA02149; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:03:40 -0500 Message-ID: <34F35FDB.10F1B5E3@janus.arc.cmu.edu> Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 19:03:39 -0500 From: "Robert J. Ries" Organization: Carnegie Mellon Department of Architecture X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.18 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Patrick Pierquet CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Studs & framing References: <00059E82.1762@us.teltech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2189 Patrick wrote: > the maximum amount of recycled material that a stud can > contain is 28-30 percent. The other 70 percent must come from virgin > ore. The steel from studs comes from "basic oxygen" furnaces, which > can only operate at 28-30 percent recycled material. The other type > of furnace, electric arc, can use 100 percent recycled material BUT > the resultant steel cannot be used for studs because of its material > properties. I would appreciate it if you could clarify this. I know that trace elements (copper, often from automobile recycling, chromium from stainless steel, etc.) can be found in electric furnace steels from the scrap steel input, which cannot be diluted with pig iron or removed in the process as in the BOF. However, structural grades of steel can be made from electric furnace steel. What are the material properties that you refer to? Would remelting only steel of a grade appropriate for framing members allow the use of steel produced by an electric furnace? Thanks, Robert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 24 22:35:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA10589 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:35:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA05093 for ; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:33:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00124; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:27:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:22:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA29576 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:22:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29564; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 22:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA93834; Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:26:51 -0700 Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:26:51 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: uwe Cc: Robert Bolman , GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: Re: substitute for pressure treated wood In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2190 Uwe: Further to your question of below, there is no e-mail address for "LifeTime" Wood Treatment, except through the worldexport web site from which you can send an e-mail message. Jorg _________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, uwe wrote: > Hi Jorg, > just in case you forgot to mention it, do these people have e-mail? - Uwe > ---------- > > Due to the number of private requests for information on "Lifetime" wood > > preservative, and in an effort to save myself some time, I am posting the > > requested information publically. We have no financial interest in this > > product. > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 00:56:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA15276 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:56:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA06091 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:54:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA04355; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:48:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:44:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA04114 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:44:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo21.mail.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA04110 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:44:05 -0500 (EST) From: Gaiaspiral@aol.com Received: from Gaiaspiral@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4VKTa27923 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:49:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <2775454.34f3b0f6@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 00:49:40 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Societal Cost Estimates of Sea-level increase Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2191 I really enjoy this dicussion and the idea of publishing a scientific estimate of the future destruction of what so many take for granted. I think that as enviromentally educated people, most of us on this list would like to have something tangible to prove to the mainstream that the earth we live on is fragile. There is a multitude of factors involved, not just sea level (temperature, pollution, natural disasters, etc.). We don't know what will happen or if we will be able to adapt. Humans have been so good (or so bad) at controlling nature for so long that it is difficult for us to imagine it any other way. So how can we educate people and the government about these issues? Do you think people will have to be faced with losing what they have before they become aware, or will they wake up before then? Obviously sensationalizing natural disasters and exploiting fears as Hollywood has done with movies about volcanoes, tornadoes and asteroids is not the answer. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 06:21:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA23965 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA02965 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA10888; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:13:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:07:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA10579 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:07:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA10574 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:07:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.198.190] (usr1a42.burl.sover.net [207.136.198.190]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA13995 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:13:27 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 06:19:52 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Studs & framing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2192 As I understand it, cold-rolled steel CAN be made from electric arc furnace steel (though not the really high grades used for auto bodies), but it isn't. This is because EAFs are relatively small operations compared to the large integrated mills that make both iron and steel, and they can't afford the large investment needed to get the equipment that is capable of shaping cold steel. One company, Nucor, has a technology to make sheet steel by hot rolling it right out of the electric furnace. This is cheaper, but not as high quality as the cold rolled stuff. I was told a couple of years ago that perhaps 5% of the steel studs on the market might come from this process. I had no luck getting info from the steel stud manufacturers as to which process their steel comes from, though. Nadav Environmental Building News >Patrick wrote: > >> the maximum amount of recycled material that a stud can >> contain is 28-30 percent. The other 70 percent must come from virgin >> ore. The steel from studs comes from "basic oxygen" furnaces, which >> can only operate at 28-30 percent recycled material. The other type >> of furnace, electric arc, can use 100 percent recycled material BUT >> the resultant steel cannot be used for studs because of its material >> properties. > >I would appreciate it if you could clarify this. I know that trace >elements (copper, often from automobile recycling, chromium from >stainless steel, etc.) can be found in electric furnace steels from the >scrap steel input, which cannot be diluted with pig iron or removed in >the process as in the BOF. However, structural grades of steel can be >made from electric furnace steel. What are the material properties that >you refer to? Would remelting only steel of a grade appropriate for >framing members allow the use of steel produced by an electric furnace? > >Thanks, Robert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 09:12:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA00727 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:12:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04216 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:10:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15408; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:04:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:58:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15096 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:58:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from CLEMSON.EDU (mail.clemson.edu [130.127.28.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15092 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:58:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cdewitt.clemson.edu ([206.240.183.38]) by CLEMSON.EDU (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA15078 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:04:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:04:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.16.19980225090449.33f739fc@mail.clemson.edu> X-Sender: cdewitt@mail.clemson.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Craig DeWitt Subject: GBlist: Re: Floor Insul. & crawl spaces Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2193 Steve, the ASHRAE material on crawl space vents that Terry refered to is ASHRAE Technical Data Bulletin Volumn 10, No. 3, "Recommended Practices for Controlling Moisture in Crawl Spaces", January 1994. I couldn't find it on ASHRAE's web site, and ended up calling them (404-636-8400) for a copy. ($9, I think). I also agree with Chuck and Terry about installing ground covers and closing vents. The physics of removing moisture with natural ventilation don't cut it. Tis better to remove or eliminate the source of moisture in the first place rather than try to handle it by dilution. "Our" typical scenario is to see problem, add vents, add more vents, add mechanical ventilation, replace rotted wood with pressure treated. Somewhere in there I might get called. I'll add a poly ground cover which will solve the problem. Now, foam or fiberglass insulation on crawl space foundation walls and termites is another story... Craig DeWitt South Carolina ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 10:03:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02678 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:03:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14571 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:01:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16064; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:20:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:16:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15756 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:16:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from dub-img-8.compuserve.com (dub-img-8.compuserve.com [149.174.206.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15752 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:16:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dub-img-8.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.10) id JAA10189; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:32:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:21:25 -0500 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: Re: GBlist: Societal Cost Estimates of Sea-level increase To: Alex Wilson , "Bion D. Howard" , "[unknown]" Message-ID: <199802250921_MC2-349B-6DD2@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA15753 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2194 Message text written by Alex Wilson >While I too found Bion's analysis quite interesting, I think we may be underestimating the drive to out-engineer nature. Much of Holland is below the mean sea level. They spend millions--possibly billions--of dollars to keep the oceans out with dikes and dams and pumps. But they probably don't spend trillions. In trying to put a value on a sea level rise that is projected to slowly rise over many decades, I think a more realistic economic analysis would be the cost of diking. While tremendously expensive and probably ecologically devastating, it seems the more likely scenario, and I suspect it would be a lot less expensive. I was reminded of this last weekend when I saw the hurricane gates in Providence Rhode Island. These, along with dikes, were built after the 1938 hurricane to protect the downtown. Alex Wilson Environmental Building News< Much of New Orleans is also under water level and is kept dry by dikes and pumps. Greg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 10:24:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03489 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:24:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20026 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:22:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18459; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:16:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:11:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18141 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:11:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from dub-img-2.compuserve.com (dub-img-2.compuserve.com [149.174.206.132]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18134 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:11:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by dub-img-2.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.10) id KAA14601; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:17:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:16:11 -0500 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: GBlist: Re: Studs & framing To: Patrick Pierquet , Greg Crawford , GBList Message-ID: <199802251016_MC2-34A4-B4EB@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAA18137 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2195 Message text written by Patrick Pierquet > Greg: while it is true that steel studs are "recyclable", the act of recycling ALWAYS results in emissions of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. In addition, according to the American Iron & Steel Institute, the maximum amount of recycled material that a stud can contain is 28-30 percent. The other 70 percent must come from virgin ore. The steel from studs comes from "basic oxygen" furnaces, which can only operate at 28-30 percent recycled material. The other type of furnace, electric arc, can use 100 percent recycled material BUT the resultant steel cannot be used for studs because of its material properties. Sooooo.....Unless there is some great advance in steel technology, studs will never contain more than 30 percent recycled material. A thought to ponder, I think.....< The basic position of the steel industry is that as long as demand for steel outstrips the availability of recycled steel, the industry will be processing virgin ore. The resulting steel is "leased" to the end user until the user is done with the material and it returns to the systems (either electric arc furnace or basic oxygen furnace) for recycling. In part because of magnetic extraction and in part because of significant investments in recycling infrastructure development, the steel industry already recycles a very high percentage of the available material (I think it is something like 60%+). The industry argument against recycled content comparisons for individual steel products is that it is most efficient to send steel for recycling to the nearest mill, regardless of the type, electric arc or basic oxygen furnace. I don't think it will take a great technological advance for electric arc furnaces to offer studs. I think they are VERY close already (see other list message on Nucor). Greg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 11:07:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA05071 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:07:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03387 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:05:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22017; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:58:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:54:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21326 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:54:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from saclink3.csus.edu (saclink3.csus.edu [130.86.82.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21322 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:54:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802251554.KAA21322@solstice.crest.org> Received: from PC-ANTHRO-04.mnh.csus.edu by saclink3.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA098092428; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:00:28 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "PE" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:33:13 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Societal Cost Estimates of Sea-level increase Reply-To: sac28787@saclink.csus.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2196 Gaiaspiral@aol.com asked: >... if we will be able to adapt. Humans have been so good (or so bad) > at controlling nature for so long that it is difficult for us to imagine it > any other way. So how can we educate people and the government about these > issues? The education and most of the proofs, like the scary films, are sitting there. Don't expect them to have more effect than they do. > Do you think people will have to be faced with losing what they have > before they become aware, or will they wake up before then? Obviously > sensationalizing natural disasters and exploiting fears as Hollywood has done > with movies about volcanoes, tornadoes and asteroids is not the answer. Humans seldom if ever 'wake up' before disaster is imminent, IF THEN. Design your future assuming scotch tape will be used as a remedy. Humans are planetary fleas/aphids and need replacing. Pet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 11:07:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA05084 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:07:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03424 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:05:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22044; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:54:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21348 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:54:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21336 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:54:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KGW04282; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:59:09 EST To: strawboss94@juno.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:58:04 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Bamboo flooring Message-ID: <19980225.105929.9062.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199802240504.AAA22284@camel14.mindspring.com> <19980224.114608.7927.0.strawboss94@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,7-8,12-15 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2197 Hi, The brand I use is Plyboo, but there are a number of others. A recent issue of EBN discussed the flooring and listed quite a few companies. I found, by calling each one mentioned, that Plyboo had a distributor near me. Other companies, like Sun Brand in Walnut, CA and Bamboo Hardwoods in Seattle, Wa, did not have a local distributor. I currently have samples of the product and 3 clients ready to install. The finish is gorgeous - better than wood - and is hard enough to use even in commercial applications (like restaurants andoffices). One upcoming application will be as a dance floor in a country club. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 11:07:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA05105 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:07:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03557 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:05:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22089; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:59:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:55:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21430 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:55:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21415 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:54:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KGV04282; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:59:09 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:48:59 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: Studs & framing Message-ID: <19980225.105929.9062.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <00059E82.1762@us.teltech.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-4,6,8,10-11,13-18 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2198 Dear GB listers, I have been following the discussion on steel studs and I have a question - as one involved in interiors, not exteriors. Some time back I recall reading and receiving info from a company located in Texas that was making a new style of I-beams out of steel. The company, Castelite, was from England. They claimed their steel beams were composed of 100% recycled steel. If this is so, is there a structural reason that the studs could not also be made of 100% recycled steel? Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 11:49:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA06583 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:49:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16133 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:47:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24508; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:41:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:37:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24022 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:37:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24017 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:37:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from alee (ip-pdx39-25.teleport.com [204.202.160.74]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA25013 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:43:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34F4498A.169A@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:40:43 -0800 From: A Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Water heater timers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2199 Does anyone have information on or can recommend a source for information about the benefits of residential water heater timers? I vaguely remember seeing something mentioned a couple of months ago on this list, but didn't save the information. I'm interested in any studies that have estimated the costs and energy savings from such timers, particularly with electric water heaters. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 13:32:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA10961 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:32:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA10799 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:30:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27935; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:38:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA27579 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:38:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA27575 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:38:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.8] (blf8.acadia.net [205.217.217.8]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA17600 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:44:33 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:42:27 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: dimmable compact fluorescents Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2200 Dear Folks, I just heard that Philips has introduced a compact fluorescent bulb, with a standard Edison base and electronic ballast, which is dimmable using a standard incandescent light dimmer. Does anyone know anything about this? Actual performance, availability, reliability, price? I'm going to pursue this elsewhere - if I learn anything, I'll share it. Any info anyone could share would be greatly appreciated. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 13:32:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA10966 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:32:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA10803 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:30:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27126; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:28:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:24:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26776 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:24:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26772 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:24:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA17863 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:29:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-31.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.159) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma017854; Wed Feb 25 11:29:40 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980225122841.006f0dd4@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:28:43 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: EEBA 1998 Conference Call for Papers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2201 Reminder -- EEBA 1998 Call for papers officially closes March 1, 1998 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (EEBA: Energy Efficient Building Association, Inc. 501(c)3 non-profit) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Those of you with new information on energy efficient building, green construction products, utility or marketing programs, technical R&D findings from the lab or field, or other useful information on your current completed or progressing work -- notice! EEBA is looking for a few good papers, presentations and workshops. What other conference on resourceful building has the opportunity for you to present your work and "break-in" to the field. Also, by attending you will learn the very latest in what makes the building science systems approach so important. Details and an on-line printable copy of the abstract submittal form, go to: and link to "Call for Papers" Print the form (Acrobat) then either FAX, e-mail or snail (postmark as late as March 1, 1998) to EEBA: FAX: (612) 851-9507 (preferred) E-mail: (subject: Abstract submittal - GBL) (include relevant contact info.) Snail: EEBA Conference Abstract Attn: S. Nicome, Sr. Manager 2590 Metro Drive, Suite 108 Minneapolis, MN 55425 Questions or comments about this post: Bion Howard * Posted to EE-building list, so sorry for multiple occurences to readers of both lists. Thanks for your understanding. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bion D. Howard, Associate Director EEBA Mid Atlantic Region Office PO Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 13:45:08 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11362 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:45:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14520 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:43:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00955; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:37:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:32:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00299 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:32:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00295 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:32:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA06540 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:37:39 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:34:55 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: RE: GBlist: flat roof replacement Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2202 98.02.25 1331est We have a fairly flat section on our roof that could utilize this product, but my inq to them reveald that they have no dealer in our area (Richmond, VA). It evidently requires special skills to apply. Does anyone know of a comparable product that I might be luckier with? Thanks as always! jh posted by "Lin, Paul, GSA-Recycle" >There's a fairly new product (1991?) called Uni-Seal, which might be >useful. It could be used to coat a cheap roofing substrate to make it >highly durable and waterproof. It's a composite of PolyUrethane and >recycled tires (30-40%), and has some pretty remarkable properties, at >least according to their info. You can visit their site at >www.rsi-uniseal.com/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 13:45:21 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11372 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:45:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14571 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:43:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01006; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:37:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:32:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00337 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:32:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00332 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:32:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.54] (ua24.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.57]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA14473; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:38:47 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:23:38 -0500 To: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath), greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Ceiling Tiles as Floor Insulation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2203 >I remeber once, after spending $8000 of someone else's money fixing a frnot >entry porch that had decayed due to water and lack of crawl space >ventialtion, I went back and double checked my last few jobs for adequate >ventilation. Found one that had insufficient venting plus a pin hole in >some copper. Lots of mold, and early signs of damage. Luckily I got to it >in time. Fixed the leak, added more evnts, went back later and everything >was dry. Sealing crawlspace vents seems contrary to every bone in my old >contractor body. What of sub surface moisture, etc etc. I will check out >the ASHRAE stuff if I can find it. > > >The dynamics are documented in print by Bill Rose in a >>ASHRAE document. Something like technical note number 10. Also good >>documentation in a paper in the ACEEE summer study proceedings from '94 or >>'96. - Terry > >______________ >Steve McGrath Steve, A grey head are you? I have healthy respect for every one of them. Sounds like your experience makes you uneasy with unvented crawlspaces? I believe you've put your finger right on the decision point criteria - is the water table near the soil surface? I do lot's of moisture and mold problem resolution stuff. If a building is on a real wet site, the crawlspace ought to be piers. If I can keep the water vapor out using poly or EPDM, and the surface water and groundwater out, I find a sealed, perimeter insulated crawlspace is best - it's really no different than a short basement. In addition, if there's ducts, pipes or mechanical equipment in the crawlspace, then it is now inside the conditioned space. And lastly, unless there's a wind greater than 5 mph, or there an odd, unintended airflow caused by an air handler in the crawlspace, when I check vents on crawlspaces, air goes in on all four sides. It's going up into the house, so it's not really cross-venting the crawl - it's transporting whatever is in the crawl up into the building. Pretty understandable because of the extensive leaks usually found in the floor between crawls and the first floor. If you have trouble finding the ASHRAE stuff, Bill Rose's phone number is 217-333-4698. He's conducted lot's of tests, and collected most of the crawlspace literature. I live in central New York state. We're aboput 7500 HDD and get over 50" of rain a year. Got lots of clay around here. How about you? What's it like where you live? Have you always been a contractor? Are you still? - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 13:46:30 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11423 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:46:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14928 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:44:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01166; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:38:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:34:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00499 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:33:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from m27.boston.juno.com (m27.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.186]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00489 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:33:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from jmcniece@juno.com) by m27.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id N_X09488; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:39:30 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Studs & Framing / Pumice-Crete Message-ID: <19980225.114319.2671.0.JMcNiece@juno.com> References: <199802240504.AAA22284@camel14.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.23 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-14 From: jmcniece@juno.com (J McNiece) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:39:30 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2204 Does anyone have experience with, or opinions about, Pumice-Crete? http://www.taosnet.com/pumice-crete/ Thanks, Joanie Joanie Highland McNiece Colorado Springs JMcNiece@juno.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 14:12:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12382 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:12:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA22377 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:11:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02736; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:00:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA02152 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:00:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02143 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:00:22 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id O|E04515; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:02:34 EST To: dmfoley@acadia.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:50:08 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: dimmable compact fluorescents Message-ID: <19980225.131534.3670.3.sbtauto@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,4-13,15-43 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2205 Have not heard about the dimmable units yet so this is a news flash. Sounds incredibly interesting. We have found a significant price break through with the standard compacts from China and I think we will do well with them in this region. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:42:27 -0400 dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) writes: >Dear Folks, > >I just heard that Philips has introduced a compact fluorescent bulb, >with a >standard Edison base and electronic ballast, which is dimmable using a >standard incandescent light dimmer. Does anyone know anything about >this? >Actual performance, availability, reliability, price? I'm going to >pursue >this elsewhere - if I learn anything, I'll share it. Any info anyone >could >share would be greatly appreciated. > >David Foley >Holland and Foley Building Design >232 Beech Hill Road >Northport, Maine USA 04849 >(207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax >email: dmfoley@acadia.net > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 14:16:05 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12525 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:16:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23198 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:14:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03066; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:08:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:03:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA02526 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:03:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02512 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:03:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.54] (ua24.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.57]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA23080 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:09:52 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199802251554.KAA21322@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:16:33 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Societal Cost Estimates of Sea-level increase Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2206 Pet wrote: > Humans seldom if ever 'wake up' before disaster is imminent, IF THEN. >Design your future assuming scotch tape will be used as a remedy. >Humans are planetary fleas/aphids and need replacing. Pet My own personal experience is that before I do the inner work it takes to make any changes in my own compulsive behaviors, my life has to become unbearably excruciating and all the paths out have to appear worse. Generally, one or more of the following four fears are involved: fear of being too close, fear of being abandoned (hey go figure), fear of poverty and fear of not-being-good-enough. At these times, I hop in my spiritual/emotional healing canoe and do the work. It appears I'm not a fair weather sailor. The things I do which affect the planet most include compulsive behaviors on my part. Bummer. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 14:25:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12915 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:25:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA25938 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03673; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:17:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:13:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03356 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:13:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA03352 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:13:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (st-ppp07.hevanet.com [198.5.254.181]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08186 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:19:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34F46E67.6C08707@hevanet.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:18:01 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Flat Roofing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2207 I used an inexpensive roofing called Peel 'N Seal on our low-slope roofs. It's easy to apply. Don't know how well it will hold up yet, installed it only two years ago. One green feature is high albedo of white and foil surface options for cooling benefit during summer. Best, Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 14:47:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13863 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:47:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02352 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:46:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05169; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:39:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:35:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA04635 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:35:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA04629 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:35:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (st-ppp07.hevanet.com [198.5.254.181]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11638; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:41:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34F47390.F13F62C8@hevanet.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:40:02 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: moxvox@pcisys.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Lumber stats References: <199802251725.JAA22349@hevanet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2208 Hi, Sara-- If you are trying to find out for your locality, one option is to call your local lumber yards and ask to speak to the person who does the take-offs for the framing packages that the yard sells to framing contractors and general contractors. This person will have a lot of experience estimating the wood needed for framing, and probably also knows about wood decks, siding, roofing, windows, stairs, flooring, casings, moldings and other wood options popular in your area. You may also be able to pay the estimator to do an estimate for a house that you define. I don't know if there is such a thing as an average house. Best, Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 14:47:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13864 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:47:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02351 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:46:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05171; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:39:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:35:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA04593 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:35:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA04589 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:34:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (st-ppp07.hevanet.com [198.5.254.181]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11580; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:40:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34F47373.ECDB3017@hevanet.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:39:34 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: moxvox@pcisys.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Lumber stats References: <199802251725.JAA22349@hevanet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2209 Hi, Sara-- If you are trying to find out for your locality, one option is to call your local lumber yards and ask to speak to the person who does the take-offs for the framing packages that the yard sells to framing contractors and general contractors. This person will have a lot of experience estimating the wood needed for framing, and probably also knows about wood decks, siding, roofing, windows, stairs, flooring, casings, moldings and other wood options popular in your area. You may also be able to pay the estimator to do an estimate for a house that you define. I don't know if there is such a thing as an average house. Best, Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 14:59:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA14336 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:59:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA05475 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:57:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05947; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:51:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:47:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05576 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:47:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05572 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:47:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.114] (pm2a19.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.179]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14616; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:53:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:53:25 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: dimmable compact fluorescents Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2210 David Foley asked about the new Philips dimmable CFL. We have a product review of this in the February issue of EBN, which is being mailed out this week. The one I've been testing is working great. Only one style is available. Suggested retail price is the same as their non-dimming 23-watt model, about $24. Seems like a winner. -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News > >I just heard that Philips has introduced a compact fluorescent bulb, with a >standard Edison base and electronic ballast, which is dimmable using a >standard incandescent light dimmer. Does anyone know anything about this? >Actual performance, availability, reliability, price? I'm going to pursue >this elsewhere - if I learn anything, I'll share it. Any info anyone could >share would be greatly appreciated. > >David Foley >Holland and Foley Building Design >232 Beech Hill Road >Northport, Maine USA 04849 >(207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax >email: dmfoley@acadia.net > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 15:17:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA15040 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:17:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA10606 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:15:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06911; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:05:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06560 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:05:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from austin.aus.sig.net (austin.sig.net [199.1.78.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06550 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.195.85.146] (server.ail.org [192.195.85.146] (may be forged)) by austin.aus.sig.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA05969; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:09:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from [100.100.100.6] by [192.195.85.146] via smtpd (for [199.1.78.2]) with SMTP; 25 Feb 1998 20:07:53 UT Date: 25 Feb 98 14:06:42 -0600 From: Matthew DeWolfe Subject: GBlist: Light colored (white) roofing and R-30 Insulation To: "Affordable Housing Ctr." , GreenBuilding Listserv , Danny Parker Message-ID: <980225.140642@ail.org> X-Mailer: QM-Internet Gateway 1.0.1 X-Priority: 4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA06556 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2211 Gentlemen and Ladies: I have a question regarding white (or light) colored roofing and the recently adopted higher levels of ceiling insulation (from R-19 to R-30)... After speaking w/ Maureen Scanlin of the GB program here in Austin, I am left puzzled: Maureen said that they have removed the old "Can't build a dark or black roof" code in light of recent higher insulation standards (from R-19 to R-30)...I am looking for a technical report validating this to take to several affordable homebuilders in Houston and Brownsville. Matthew Carl DeWolfe dewolfe@ail.org American Institute for Learning Texas YouthWorks Technical Assistance Specialist 204 E. 4th St., Austin, TX 78701 (512) 472 3395 x44 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 16:09:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA17324 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:09:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA25550 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:08:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09873; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:01:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:57:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA09473 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:57:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09469 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:57:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sd12.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.237]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA23870 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 16:04:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34F4861D.4FE7@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:59:09 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: light colored or white roofs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2212 Matthew, The logic eludes me as well, it would seem to be counterproductive, wouldn't it. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 17:45:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA23782 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:45:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA26228 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:43:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14443; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:37:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:33:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14080 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:33:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14076 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:33:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA01596 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:38:23 -0500 Message-id: <2383731@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 25 Feb 98 17:45:39 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Ceiling Tiles as Floor Insulation To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2213 --- You wrote: Have you always been a contractor? Are you still? --- end of quote --- Terry - I've never met a contractor that was still - there's too much to do! (Now engineers, that's another story...) Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 20:04:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA29408 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:04:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA02058 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19998; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:55:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:51:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA19691 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA19687 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:51:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12057; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:56:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:56:50 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Plastic Skin ICF To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: malbanese@gulfaccess.net X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199802181925.OAA23730@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2214 On Wed, 18 Feb 1998 > Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 06:58:45 -0500 (EST) > From: Mark Albanese > > Does anybody know a Canadain frim who produces or will produce an insulated > concrete from that has a plastic skin on the exterior which eliminates > painting altogether. Could you mean the Royal Housing System by Royal Plastics of Woodbridge, Ont. Check out www.royplas.com If this is it, tell me what you think about the "green" and other aspects of the product. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 21:15:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA02049 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:15:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14610 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:14:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA23112; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:07:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:03:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA22775 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:03:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22771 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:03:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA11700 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:09:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:09:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from asy6.vineyard.net(199.232.92.46) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id smab11586; Wed Feb 25 21:09:38 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2383731@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: Re: GBlist: Ceiling Tiles as Floor Insulation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2215 Marc wrote - >--- You wrote: >Have you always been a contractor? Are you still? >--- end of quote --- >Terry - I've never met a contractor that was still - there's too much to do! >(Now engineers, that's another story...) I'm on vacation these last couple weeks, so as soon as I respond to this post I'll be still. Now you've met one (in a moment, I promise). John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 22:02:21 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA03439 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:02:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07016 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 22:00:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24735; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:54:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:50:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA24433 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:50:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from alpha.cc.oberlin.edu (SYSTEM@alpha.cc.oberlin.edu [132.162.1.245]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24425 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:50:02 -0500 (EST) From: Motofumi.Tohda@oberlin.edu Received: from OBERLIN.EDU by OBERLIN.EDU (PMDF V5.1-10 #24033) id <01IU0G5MRTIA00IMXF@OBERLIN.EDU> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:56:05 EDT Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:56:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: GBlist: Studs & framing In-reply-to: <19980225.105929.9062.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2216 Dear members, Actually, I was just researching about recycle studs last month and I was struggling with this issue as well.. What I found out at the end was that 100% recycle does not necessary mean good. I talked to a representative of Recycle Steel Institute and he said that best recycle content for the steel is around 30%. they said that's the most efficient percentage for making steel. if they try to make 100% recycle steel, the embodied energy will be higher. I don't have the reference with me right now but I just did this in January so my memory is fresh. if you want to know more about the percentage of recycling steel, I recommend to contact Recycle Steel Institute. They will send you a brochure explaining why 30% recycle steel is better. Moto Tohda ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 25 23:22:44 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA05760 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA27884 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:20:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27875; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:14:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:10:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27537 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:10:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27533 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:10:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.89] (pa-ppp04.hevanet.com [204.119.60.89]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23982 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:16:12 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802260416.UAA23982@hevanet.com> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 20:22:14 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: obrien@hevanet.com (Michael O'Brien) Subject: GBlist: Precautionary Principle Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2217 The current issues of Rachel's Environment and Health Weekly has an interesting article on the "Precautionary Principle", a set of guidelines for human action when environmental effects are uncertain. You can read it at: erf@rachel.clark.net Best, Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 04:41:45 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA14137 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 04:41:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA29459 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 04:39:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA05164; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 04:33:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 04:29:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA04926 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 04:28:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.agoranet.be (mail.agoranet.be [194.119.249.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA04922 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 04:28:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from wim.agoranet.be (gent06.agoranet.be [194.119.250.70]) by mail.agoranet.be (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA03490; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:37:59 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980226093359.006b8510@mail.agoranet.be> X-Sender: wimdg@mail.agoranet.be X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:33:59 +0100 To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) From: Wim De Groote Subject: Re: GBlist: dimmable compact fluorescents Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2218 Hallo David, I am sure that Philips has just introduced a new type of CFL's with the same shape (and base) as an incandescent, because I have seen them myself. However, I doubt whether these are dimmable. Who makes dimmable CFL's for over two years now is OSRAM : in this case you have to combine a separate dimmable electronic ballast with a lamp, which is a good environmental choice because the ballast almost lasts "forever" (so you have less waste). Willem De Groote E STER St. Denijslaan 64 B-9000 GENT Belgium At 12:42 25/02/98 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Folks, > >I just heard that Philips has introduced a compact fluorescent bulb, with a >standard Edison base and electronic ballast, which is dimmable using a >standard incandescent light dimmer. Does anyone know anything about this? >Actual performance, availability, reliability, price? I'm going to pursue >this elsewhere - if I learn anything, I'll share it. Any info anyone could >share would be greatly appreciated. > >David Foley >Holland and Foley Building Design >232 Beech Hill Road >Northport, Maine USA 04849 >(207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax >email: dmfoley@acadia.net > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 09:13:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA20513 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:13:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13183; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:05:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:01:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12818 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:01:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12814 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:01:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip4.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.23]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA130 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:07:17 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980226091712.006b86d8@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:17:12 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Hydrogen peroxide In-Reply-To: References: <34E3E284.762BF6E3@ivnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2219 Jorg: I took a look at a Material Safety Data Sheet (see http://www.chem.uky.edu/resources/msds.html#Internet for a master list of sites) The Baker MSDS posted to the Vermont SIRI collection (http://hazard.com/msds) is pasted in below.. Apologies to the group for creating a rather long message, but it should be instructive for those who've missed out on the glory of MSDSs. Buyers can request an MSDS for just about anything that is bought these days. ... Harry =============================== J T BAKER CHEMICAL -- HYDROGEN PEROXIDE,30 % - HYDROGEN PEROXIDE,ACS MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET NSN: 6810002998506 Manufacturer's CAGE: 70829 Part No. Indicator: A Part Number/Trade Name: HYDROGEN PEROXIDE,30 % =========================================================================== General Information =========================================================================== Item Name: HYDROGEN PEROXIDE,ACS Company's Name: J.T.BAKER CHEMICAL CO. Company's Street: 222 RED SCHOOL LANE Company's City: PHILLIPSBURG Company's State: NJ Company's Country: US Company's Zip Code: 08865-2219 Company's Emerg Ph #: 201-859-2151/CHEMTREC 800-424-9300 Company's Info Ph #: 201-859-2151 Record No. For Safety Entry: 008 Tot Safety Entries This Stk#: 008 Status: SE Date MSDS Prepared: 14APR90 Safety Data Review Date: 15MAR91 Supply Item Manager: KX MSDS Serial Number: BDWML Hazard Characteristic Code: D1 Unit Of Issue: BT Unit Of Issue Container Qty: 4 FL OZ Type Of Container: BOTTLE =========================================================================== Ingredients/Identity Information =========================================================================== Proprietary: NO Ingredient: HYDROGEN PEROXIDE (SARA III) Ingredient Sequence Number: 01 Percent: 30 NIOSH (RTECS) Number: MX0900000 CAS Number: 7722-84-1 OSHA PEL: 1 PPM ACGIH TLV: 1 PPM; 9192 Other Recommended Limit: NONE SPECIFIED ------------------------------------- Proprietary: NO Ingredient: WATER Ingredient Sequence Number: 02 Percent: 70 NIOSH (RTECS) Number: ZC0110000 CAS Number: 7732-18-5 OSHA PEL: NOT ESTABLISHED ACGIH TLV: NOT ESTABLISHED Other Recommended Limit: NONE SPECIFIED =========================================================================== Physical/Chemical Characteristics =========================================================================== Appearance And Odor: CLEAR COLORLESS LIQUID. PUNGENT ODOR Boiling Point: 222F,106C Melting Point: -18F,-28C Vapor Pressure (MM Hg/70 F): 23.3 Vapor Density (Air=1): UNKNOWN Specific Gravity: 1.11 Decomposition Temperature: UNKNOWN Evaporation Rate And Ref: >1 (N-BUTYL ACETATE=1) Solubility In Water: 100 % Percent Volatiles By Volume: 100 pH: 3.3 Corrosion Rate (IPY): UNKNOWN =========================================================================== Fire and Explosion Hazard Data =========================================================================== Flash Point: NONE Extinguishing Media: USE WATER SPRAY. USE WATER SPRAY TO COOL CONTAINERS EXPOSED TO FIRE. Special Fire Fighting Proc: USE NIOSH APPROVED SELF-CONTAINED BREATHING APPARATUS WITH FULL FACEPIECE OPERATED IN POSITIVE PRESSURE MODE. MOVE CONTAINERS FROM FIRE AREA IF IT IS NOT RISKY. Unusual Fire And Expl Hazrds: STRONG OXIDIZER. CONTACT WITH OTHER MATERIAL MAY CAUSE FIRE. MAY INCREASE FIRE INTENSITY. =========================================================================== Reactivity Data =========================================================================== Stability: NO Cond To Avoid (Stability): HEAT Materials To Avoid: STRONG REDUCING AGENTS,ORGANIC METALS,MOST COMMON METALS,COMBUSTIBLE MATERIALS,ALKALIES,WOOD,ASBESTOS,SOIL,RUST,OXIDIZER Hazardous Decomp Products: UNKNOWN Hazardous Poly Occur: NO =========================================================================== Health Hazard Data =========================================================================== LD50-LC50 Mixture: ORAL RAT LD50 = 1518 MG/KG Route Of Entry - Inhalation: YES Route Of Entry - Skin: YES Route Of Entry - Ingestion: YES Health Haz Acute And Chronic: ACUTE:EYES/SKIN:SEVERE IRRITATION & BURN. PROLONGED CONTACT WITH EYES MAY CAUSE DAMAGE & BLINDNESS.INHALATION:SEVERE IRRITATION OF RESPIRATORY TRACT.INGESTION:IRRITATION OF ESOPHAGUS & BLEEDING STOMACH ULCERS.CHRONIC-UNKNOWN. Carcinogenicity - NTP: NO Carcinogenicity - IARC: NO Carcinogenicity - OSHA: NO EYES, SKIN, MUCOUS MEMBRANES, RESPIRATORY SYSTEM Med Cond Aggravated By Exp: UNKNOWN Emergency/First Aid Proc: CALL A PHYSICIAN.INHALATION:REMOVE TO FRESH AIR.GIVE OXYGEN/CPR IF NECESSARY.EYES/SKIN:IMMEDIATELY FLUSH WITH WATER FOR 15 MINUTES.REMOVE CONTAMINATED CLOTHING.INGESTION:DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING.IF CONSCIOUS,GIVE LARGE AMOUNT OF WATER. =========================================================================== Precautions for Safe Handling and Use =========================================================================== Steps If Matl Released/Spill: WEAR SELF-CONTAINED BREATHING APPARATUS & FULL PROTECTIVE CLOTHING.KEEP COMBUSTIBLES AWAY.STOP LEAK IF YOU CAN DO WITHOUT RISK.FLUSH SPILL AREA WITH WATER. Neutralizing Agent: WATER Waste Disposal Method: DISPOSE IN ACCORDANCE WITH ALL APPLICABLE FEDERAL, STATE & LOCAL ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS. EPA HAZARDOUS WASTE NUMBER :D001, D002 (IGNITABLE, CORROSIVE WASTE) Precautions-Handling/Storing: STORE IN A COOL,DRY,WELL VENTILATED AREA AWAY FROM FLAMMABLE MATERIALS.CONTAINERS SHOULD BE VENTED.STORAGE COLOR CODE: YELLOW (REACTIVE) Other Precautions: WORK IN A WELL VENTILATED AREA.KEEP CONTAINERS TIGHTLY CLOSED.STORE SEPARATELY OUT OF SUN AND AWAY FROM HEAT.KEEP AWAY FROM COMBUSTIBLE MATERIALS. =========================================================================== Control Measures =========================================================================== Respiratory Protection: NONE REQUIRED WHERE ADEQUATE VENTILATION CONDITION EXISTS.IF AIRBORNE CONCENTRATION IS ABOVE 1 PPM, A SELF-CONTAINED BREATHING APPARATUS IS ADVISED. Ventilation: PROVIDE LOCAL EXHAUST OR GENERAL EXHAUST VENTILATION TO MEET TLV REQUIREMENTS. Protective Gloves: NEOPRENE Eye Protection: SAFETY GOGGLES AND FACE SHIELD Other Protective Equipment: PROTECTIVE CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT TO PREVENT ANY POSSIBILITY OF SKIN CONTACT. EYE WASH STATION & SAFETY SHOWER. Work Hygienic Practices: WASH THOROUGHLY AFTER USE AND BEFORE EATING OR SMOKING. LAUNDER CONTAMINATED CLOTHING BEFORE REUSE. =========================================================================== Transportation Data =========================================================================== Trans Data Review Date: 91074 DOT PSN Code: HMM DOT Proper Shipping Name: HYDROGEN PEROXIDE, AQUEOUS SOLUTIONS DOT Class: 5.1 DOT ID Number: UN2014 DOT Pack Group: II DOT Label: OXIDIZER, CORROSIVE IMO PSN Code: IIL IMO Proper Shipping Name: HYDROGEN PEROXIDE, AQUEOUS SOLUTION, IMO Regulations Page Number: 5151 IMO UN Number: 2014 IMO UN Class: 5.1 IMO Subsidiary Risk Label: CORROSIVE IATA PSN Code: NUB IATA UN ID Number: 2014 IATA Proper Shipping Name: HYDROGEN PEROXIDE, AQUEOUS SOLUTION IATA UN Class: 5.1 IATA Subsidiary Risk Class: 8 IATA Label: OXIDIZER & CORROSIVE AFI PSN Code: NUB AFI Prop. Shipping Name: HYDROGEN PEROXIDE, AQUEOUS SOLUTIONS AFI Class: 5.1 AFI ID Number: UN2014 AFI Pack Group: II AFI Label: OXIDIZER,CORROSIVE AFI Special Prov: A2,A3,A6 AFI Basic Pac Ref: 9-8 =========================================================================== Disposal Data =========================================================================== Disposal Data Review Date: 89144 Rec # For This Disp Entry: 02 Tot Disp Entries Per NSN: 002 Landfill Ban Item: YES Disposal Supplemental Data: IN CASE OF ACCIDENTAL EXPOSURE OR DISCHARGE, CONSULT HEALTH AND SAFETY FILE FOR PRECAUTIONS. 1st EPA Haz Wst Code New: D001 1st EPA Haz Wst Name New: IGNITIBLE 1st EPA Haz Wst Char New: IGNITABILITY 1st EPA Acute Hazard New: NO =========================================================================== Label Data =========================================================================== Label Required: YES Technical Review Date: 15MAR91 Label Date: 14APR90 MFR Label Number: UNKNOWN Label Status: G Common Name: HYDROGEN PEROXIDE,30 % Signal Word: DANGER! Acute Health Hazard-Severe: X Contact Hazard-Severe: X Fire Hazard-None: X Reactivity Hazard-Slight: X Special Hazard Precautions: ACUTE:EYES/SKIN:SEVERE IRRITATION & BURN. PROLONGED CONTACT WITH EYES MAY CAUSE DAMAGE & BLINDNESS.INHALATION:SEVERE IRRITATION OF RESPIRATORY TRACT.INGESTION:IRRITATION OF ESOPHAGUS & BLEEDING STOMACH ULCERS.CHRONIC:UNKNOWN.STORAGE-STORE IN A COOL,DRY,WELL VENTILATED AREA AWAY FROM FLAMMABLE MATERIALS.CONTAINERS SHOULD BE VENTED. STORAGE COLOR CODE: YELLOW (REACTIVE) FIRST AID-CALL A PHYSICIAN. IMMEDIATELY FLUSH WITH WATER FOR 15 MINUTES.REMOVE CONTAMINATED CLOTHING. INGESTION:DO NOT INDUCE VOMITING.IF CONSCIOUS,GIVE LARGE AMOUNT OF WATER. Protect Eye: Y Protect Skin: Y Protect Respiratory: Y Label Name: J.T.BAKER CHEMICAL CO. Label Street: 222 RED SCHOOL LANE Label City: PHILLIPSBURG Label State: NJ Label Zip Code: 08865-2219 Label Country: US Label Emergency Number: 201-859-2151/CHEMTREC 800-424-9300 ======================================================================= URL for this msds http://siri.org. If you wish to change, add to, or delete information in this archive please sent updates to dan@siri.org. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 09:25:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA20851 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13878; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:17:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:13:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13575 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:13:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13571 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:13:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (se4.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.37]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA15366 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:19:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34F578CC.5B06@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:14:36 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Light colored (white) roofing and R-30 Insulation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2220 Nadav Malin wrote: > > Matthew Carl DeWolfe wrote: > > > >After speaking w/ Maureen Scanlin of the GB program here in Austin, I am > >left puzzled: Maureen said that they have removed the old "Can't build a > >dark or black roof" code in light of recent higher insulation standards > >(from R-19 to R-30)...I am looking for a technical report validating this > >to take to several affordable homebuilders in Houston and Brownsville. > > > > Actually, I think this policy makes some sense. I don't have the numbers > handy, but I believe that the research documented that the cooling benefit > of light-colored roofs is only significant if attic insulation levels are > very low. Insulate well, and the roof color factor becomes negligible. > Florida Solar Energy Center is probably the source for this stuff: > http://www.fsec.ucf.edu > > Of course, if you have any ductwork in the attic, above the insulation, > then attic temperature is once again important. But don't put ductwork in > unconditioned spaces! > > Nadav > Environmental Building News > http://www.ebuild.com > This sounds something akin to saying that if you are insulated to the new standards in the Northeast subzero temperatures won't effect your heating load. Seems short sighted to me. What is the compelling reason for the dark roof surface that would make them recind a perfectly sensible policy. Yes, certainly an R 30 ceiling is going to minimize the effects of solar gain into the habitable space, but it only accentuates the effects of thermal shock to the roof itself. Deterioration from this effect in roofing materials is well documented. I don't see the reasoning here, perhaps there is something that I'm missing, it has happened before. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 09:36:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21150 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:36:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12519; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:54:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:50:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12124 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:49:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.ntplx.net (mail.ntplx.net [204.213.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12119 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:49:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ntplx.net (p05-34.hartford.dialin.ntplx.com [204.213.188.234]) by mail.ntplx.net (8.8.7/NETPLEX) with ESMTP id IAA20754 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:56:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34F57686.4D6C1689@ntplx.net> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:04:57 -0500 From: Sherry Reply-To: sherry@ntplx.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: [Fwd: [ROOTS-AND-OTHERS-L] FW: Telephone Scam (from the lists owner)] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C852F5037CCC77CD66E103D7" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2221 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C852F5037CCC77CD66E103D7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------C852F5037CCC77CD66E103D7 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from fp-1.rootsweb.com (fp-1.rootsweb.com [207.113.233.233]) by mail.ntplx.net (8.8.7/NETPLEX) with ESMTP id RAA17484 for ; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:09:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from slist@localhost) by fp-1.rootsweb.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA26535; Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:56:26 -0800 (PST) Resent-Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:56:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 23:03:45 +0100 Message-Id: <199802252203.XAA07767@hermes.devotion.org> X-Sender: kshai@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: BARRINGER-l@rootsweb.com, BLACK-L@rootsweb.com, lwd003@merle.acns.nwu.edu, BRADFORD-L@rootsweb.com, cbradfor@PigsEye.Kennesaw.EDU, cwa@trex2.oscs.montana.edu, COVENTRY-L@rootsweb.com, ELLER-l@rootsweb.com, m986144@nadn.navy.mil, HACKETT-L@rootsweb.com, JLW021@HAWK.DSU.NODAK.EDU, jawilli6@hamlet.uncg.edu, jmbradfo@eos.ncsu.edu, KERN-L@rootsweb.com, zjf93@ttacs1.ttu.edu, CCJF33A@prodigy.com, GJP8363@montana.edu, DMcneal@montana.edu, DobbieH@montana.edu, WCR@montana.edu, kdahl@montana.edu, max@selway.umt.edu, humper@selway.umt.edu, dagoldie@selway.umt.edu, smithms@selway.umt.edu, cfranks@selway.umt.edu, koolcat@selway.umt.edu, murdock@selway.umt.edu, damonp@selway.umt.edu, junebug@selway.umt.edu, makaveli@selway.umt.edu, kriskros@selway.umt.edu, mjackson@selway.umt.edu, ramana@selway.utm.edu, n.jenkins@worldnet.att.net, alejdra@aol.com, STS64896@mcs.umes.umd.edu, tess@selway.umt.edu From: Erin Bradford Subject: [ROOTS-AND-OTHERS-L] FW: Telephone Scam (from the lists owner) Resent-Message-ID: <"cRaHYC.A.6aG.COJ90"@fp-1.rootsweb.com> Resent-From: KERN-L@rootsweb.com X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/96 X-Loop: KERN-L@rootsweb.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: KERN-L-request@rootsweb.com I just want to say first off, I don't normally send out these warnings, but this is a scam that HAS been verified by AT&T and this does happen. It could cost you a lot of money if this happens to you so do yourself a favor and read this so you'll know ahead of time. Thanks -Erin >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Smith, Patrick L [SMTP:plsmith@indiana.edu] >> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 1998 2:55 PM >> To: TOPS Requisition Users >> Subject: Telephone Scam >> >> I apologize to those of you who will receive duplications of >> this message but multiple lists are being used to pass this >> information. >> >> This message was forwarded to us and has been verified with AT&T >> and the Bloomington Campus Telecommunications Dept. It is true, and >> should to be transmitted widely. >> >> This is not a new scam but certainly one that has not gone away. >> >> If you receive a call from anyone identifying themselves as a >> telephone technician performing a test, and this person asks you to >> touch >> nine (9), zero (0), the pound sign (#), and then hang up - REFUSE TO >> DO SO! >> >> By pushing 90# you are giving the individual that called you >> access to your telephone line and allowing them to place long distance >> telephone calls, with the charge appearing on your telephone bill. We >> were further informed that this scam has been originating from many of >> the local jails/prisons. Please pass the word. --------------C852F5037CCC77CD66E103D7-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 09:36:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21152 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:36:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12087; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:49:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:45:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11689 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:45:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA11685 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:45:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.201.19] (usr2a19.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.19]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA03133 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:51:12 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:57:38 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Light colored (white) roofing and R-30 Insulation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2222 Matthew Carl DeWolfe wrote: > >After speaking w/ Maureen Scanlin of the GB program here in Austin, I am >left puzzled: Maureen said that they have removed the old "Can't build a >dark or black roof" code in light of recent higher insulation standards >(from R-19 to R-30)...I am looking for a technical report validating this >to take to several affordable homebuilders in Houston and Brownsville. > Actually, I think this policy makes some sense. I don't have the numbers handy, but I believe that the research documented that the cooling benefit of light-colored roofs is only significant if attic insulation levels are very low. Insulate well, and the roof color factor becomes negligible. Florida Solar Energy Center is probably the source for this stuff: http://www.fsec.ucf.edu Of course, if you have any ductwork in the attic, above the insulation, then attic temperature is once again important. But don't put ductwork in unconditioned spaces! Nadav Environmental Building News http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 09:36:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21156 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10452; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:19:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:13:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA10157 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:13:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10153 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:13:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA152480; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:18:04 -0700 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 06:18:04 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Bruce Cc: Twila A Ard , healthy@bloomington.in.us, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Hydrogen peroxide In-Reply-To: <34E3E284.762BF6E3@ivnet.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2223 re: "Twila, Hydrogen peroxide should have a pretty good sterilizing effect, with less environmental consequences. Bruce Donelson" _____________________________________________________________________________ How safe is the above from a health and environmental point of view? For instance, could it be used to sterilize/clean a cistern? _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 09:36:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21160 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:36:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09880; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:01:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:57:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA09543 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:57:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA09539 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:57:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA00233 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:02:56 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 00059FB3; Thu, 26 Feb 98 06:51:34 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:01:43 -0600 Message-ID: <00059FB3.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: steel studs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2224 Moto wrote: Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:56:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Motofumi.Tohda@oberlin.edu Subject: Re: GBlist: Studs & framing Dear members, Actually, I was just researching about recycle studs last month and I was struggling with this issue as well.. What I found out at the end was that 100% recycle does not necessary mean good. I talked to a representative of Recycle Steel Institute and he said that best recycle content for the steel is around 30%...... Moto Tohda Moto: This is similar to the info I have. As I understand it, in the basic oxygen furnace, recycled steel is added to "cool" the process and make it more controllable.(The guy as AISI said the recycled steel acts like "ice cubes".) Of course, if too much recycled steel is added, it makes the product uneconomical because so much heat and energy must be used. The optimal amount has been found to be around 28-30 percent recycled content. Therefore, steel studs, with current technology, never have more than 30 percent recycled content. The remainder must come from virgin ore. And, contrary to what Greg has asserted, this has NOTHING to do with supply and demand for steel; it is simply a technological limitation. - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 10:14:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA23179 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:14:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16476; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:06:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:02:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16152 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:02:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16148 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:02:04 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KiB28516; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:02:44 EST To: dewolfe@mail.ail.org Cc: affhsng@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org, dparker@fsec.ucf.edu Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:56:19 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Light colored (white) roofing and R-30 Insulation Message-ID: <19980226.091415.3694.1.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <980225.140642@ail.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-11,13-40 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2225 I just wanted to convey my gratitude and enjoyment for the recent use group dialogue concerning flat roofs. I need and deeply appreciate this information! Please continue! Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On 25 Feb 98 14:06:42 -0600 Matthew DeWolfe writes: >Gentlemen and Ladies: > >I have a question regarding white (or light) colored roofing and the >recently adopted higher levels of ceiling insulation (from R-19 to >R-30)... > >After speaking w/ Maureen Scanlin of the GB program here in Austin, I >am left puzzled: Maureen said that they have removed the old "Can't >build a dark or black roof" code in light of recent higher insulation >standards (from R-19 to R-30)...I am looking for a technical report >validating this to take to several affordable homebuilders in Houston >and Brownsville. > >Matthew Carl DeWolfe >dewolfe@ail.org >American Institute for Learning >Texas YouthWorks Technical Assistance Specialist >204 E. 4th St., Austin, TX 78701 >(512) 472 3395 x44 > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 10:34:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA23707 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:34:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17538; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:26:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:22:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17040 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:22:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17036 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:22:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA00032 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:26:57 -0500 Message-id: <2390772@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 26 Feb 98 10:34:16 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Light colored (white) roofing and R-30 Insulation To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2226 --- Forwarded Message from Marc J. Rosenbaum --- >Date: 25 Feb 98 18:03:17 EST >From: Marc J. Rosenbaum >Subject: Re: GBlist: Light colored (white) roofing and R-30 Insulation >To: dewolfe@mail.ail.org --- You wrote: Gentlemen and Ladies: I have a question regarding white (or light) colored roofing and the recently adopted higher levels of ceiling insulation (from R-19 to R-30)... After speaking w/ Maureen Scanlin of the GB program here in Austin, I am left puzzled: Maureen said that they have removed the old "Can't build a dark or black roof" code in light of recent higher insulation standards (from R-19 to R-30)...I am looking for a technical report validating this to take to several affordable homebuilders in Houston and Brownsville. --- end of quote --- The dark roof color makes the roof get hotter than the light colored roof. When the underside of the roof deck is hotter than the top of the insulation, then there is radiant heat transfer to the insulation. So the insulation can get hotter than the air temperature in the attic. As you add insulation, the heat gain into the house through the ceiling drops, because the heat moves down through the insulation by conduction. So there is a trade-off between roof color (which determines absorption of radiant heat from the sun), the use of a radiant barrier (on the underside of the roof deck is best), and the amount of insulation at the ceiling level. Factors which decrease radiant gain and transfer are less important as the insulation levels go up. This is not to say that in TX you shouldn't keep your roof light colored, but that there are other things which can be tweaked to control ceiling heat gain. So if you had a 1200 ft2 home (ceiling area) and R-50 blown-in cellulose, and the top of the insulation was 130F, and the interior temperature was 75F, the heat gain to the house is about 1320 Btu/hour, or 0.11 ton. If the insulation was R-19, but was only 100F at the top, the heat gain would be 1579 Btu/hour. And if you kept the temperature to 100F, and used R-50, the gain would be 600 Btu/hour. I wish you luck - I visited a AIL project when I was in Austin 3 years ago - you are doing GREAT work! Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 10:45:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24010 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:45:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18433; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:36:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:32:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17911 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:32:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17904 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:32:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa7-p32.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.160]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA05440 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:38:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34F58B5F.310@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:33:51 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Light colored roofs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2227 Marc wrote: > the use of a radiant barrier (on the underside of the roof deck is best), What is the reasoning with the placement of the barrier, this is instructive. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 10:45:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24037 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:45:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18479; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:37:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:33:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17959 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from austin.aus.sig.net (austin.sig.net [199.1.78.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17951 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:32:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.195.85.146] (server.ail.org [192.195.85.146] (may be forged)) by austin.aus.sig.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA29789 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:37:46 -0600 (CST) Date: 26 Feb 98 09:29:04 -0600 From: Matthew DeWolfe Subject: GBlist: They're not all flat... To: "GB Disc. Group" Message-ID: <980226.092904@ail.org> X-Mailer: QM-Internet Gateway 1.0.1 X-Priority: 4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAA17953 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2228 Dear sbt: Much of the roof info circulating regarding the question of light colored roofing and insulation levels has actually been referring to pitched residential roofs...to the best of my knowledge, flat roofs have not been discussed (although some of the same principles would apply)... FYI Matthew Carl DeWolfe dewolfe@ail.org American Institute for Learning Texas YouthWorks Technical Assistant 204 E. 4th St., Austin, TX 512 472-3395 x44 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 10:52:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24260 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:52:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19030; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:44:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:40:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18674 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:40:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18670 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:40:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA00087 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:45:08 -0500 Message-id: <2391033@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 26 Feb 98 10:52:22 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Light colored roofs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2229 --- You wrote: Marc wrote: > the use of a radiant barrier (on the underside of the roof deck is best), What is the reasoning with the placement of the barrier, this is instructive. Chuck --- end of quote --- It works as well on top of the ceiling insulation, but it is much more likely to get dirty/dusty, in which case its reflectivity drops and it becomes less effective at reflecting the radiant energy. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 10:56:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24364 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:56:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19486; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:48:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:44:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18979 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:44:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18971 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:44:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA17655; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:47:38 -0800 Message-ID: <34F58DD6.CB783313@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 07:44:22 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: Bruce , Twila A Ard , healthy@bloomington.in.us, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Hydrogen peroxide References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2230 Hydrogen peroxide in concentrations of 3-4% are being marketed as a safe alternative to chlorine products for disinfection through oxidation. As with a lot of products its now being exploited for everything from mouth rinse, hair loss and as a cancer cure. As a chemical becomes used with greater frequency in a variety of products or products are used with less care and greater frequency anticipated exposure levels produce a new generation of results. Hence prolonged use indicates tooth decay, hair loss(probably) and concerns now for cancer DNA mutation, etc. Disinfection through oxidization of water may require higher concentrations (which are dangerous to handle) and are typically done in combination with ozone. The problems of using chemical oxidizers is the range of byproducts formed when material reacts with organics in the water. Regarding the use of oxidizers for water disinfection the general consensus is that (outside of the wonderful realm of marketing) there are no panaceas. You might want to look at solar disinfection and possibly uv disinfection as a means of ensuring quality of water coming from the cistern though uv only works on water completely free of any particles. The use of copper and silver diodes for ionization would be effective in the cistern for sterilization (you would have to filter for clarity) but I'm not sure it would be really necessary. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > re: "Twila, Hydrogen peroxide should have a pretty good sterilizing effect, > with less environmental consequences. Bruce Donelson" > _____________________________________________________________________________ > How safe is the above from a health and environmental point of view? For > instance, could it be used to sterilize/clean a cistern? > _________________________________________________________ > Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > _____________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 10:59:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24444 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:59:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19780; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:51:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:47:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19278 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:46:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc513.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19269 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:46:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from IEL#u#MAIL-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:56:17 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:55:57 -0500 From: Arnie Katz To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET Subject: Re: GBlist: Light colored (white) roofing and R-30 Insulation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2231 My memory of the Florida Solar study is that the roofing material is more important than the color, e.g., there's not that much difference between light & dark colored asphalt shingles, but there's a big difference between asphalt shingles and a light-colored spray-on roof coating. This, then, becomes a cost issue--is it more cost-effective to use a roofing material that reduces roof deck temperature, or is it more cost-effective to increase the level of insulation. I seem to recall an Oak Ridge National Lab study that suggested once you get to about R-30 in the ceiling, the added cost of a radiant barrier couldn't be justified (based on whatever they were using as cost figures for both. These studies were reported in Energy Design Update; contact at FSEC is, I believe, Danny Parker for this work. arnie Arnie Katz Building Science Specialist Advanced Energy 909 Capability Drive Raleigh, NC 27606 919/857-9029 FAX: 919/832-2696 akatz@aec.ncsu.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 11:05:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24663 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:05:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20452; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:57:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:53:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19964 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:53:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19957 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:53:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KFN24131; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:57:39 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:58:15 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Light color roofs Message-ID: <19980226.105818.9678.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,7,11-17 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2232 GB listers and Texans, Here is S. Florida we have the same or similar considerations as Texas. I have been impressed in the past by Texas' commitment to environmental building but this situation re: roofs is upsetting. Call me practical, but it seems to me if a light roof makes even a small contribution to energy efficiency, it should be the norm. I grew up on New England "horse sense" and one of our sayings was "every little bit helps". Thus, while a single roof may make only a small contribution, thousands of small contributions can become a significant contribution. The question, it seems to me, wouldn't be "why" but "why not". Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 12:01:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26444 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:01:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23632; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:53:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:48:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23144 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:48:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from Netcube.ntwrks.com (Netcube.ntwrks.com [192.154.76.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23129 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:48:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from newmicronpc (ppp10.ntwrks.com [192.154.76.14]) by Netcube.ntwrks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA24326; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:53:11 -0500 Message-ID: <34F55936.5B98@ntwrks.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:59:50 +0000 From: Wayne Jones Reply-To: wayne_jones@ntwrks.com Organization: Brown and Jones, Architects X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nadav Malin CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Light colored (white) roofing and R-30 Insulation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2233 "Nadav Malin wrote: ... I don't have the numbers handy, but I believe that the research documented that the cooling benefit of light-colored roofs is only significant if attic insulation levels are very low. Insulate well, and the roof color factor becomes negligible." I have to disagree to a point here. I don't doubt the work of FSEC, but why install a black roof when a white one will intuitively perform best, particularly in a cooling climate? I don't think cost is a big variable here for a quality roof using either black or white rubber, epdm, etc. Also, the roof construction is critical, especially in light of the possibility that the FSEC numbers are based on simulations versus controlled tests. Another important point to consider is the relectance of a white roof in coordination with roof-mounted daylight monitors. This can substantially benefit the performance of a daylighting system. Wayne Jones -- Brown and Jones, Architects 16 N. Boylan Ave. Raleigh, NC 27603 (919) 831-2625 FAX 831-2626 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 12:14:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26912 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:14:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24548; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:04:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:00:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24030 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:00:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from Netcube.ntwrks.com (Netcube.ntwrks.com [192.154.76.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24026 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:00:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from newmicronpc (ppp10.ntwrks.com [192.154.76.14]) by Netcube.ntwrks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA24947; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:05:04 -0500 Message-ID: <34F55C02.56DF@ntwrks.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:11:46 +0000 From: Wayne Jones Reply-To: wayne_jones@ntwrks.com Organization: Brown and Jones, Architects X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.03Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: radiant barrier References: <2391033@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2234 Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > > --- You wrote: > Marc wrote: > the use of a radiant barrier (on the underside of the roof > deck is best), > > One important thing to remember about radiant barriers is that their primary role is to reduce the re-radiation of heat through the use of a low-emissivity coating (the shiny part). In a cooling climate with a hot roof surface, you are trying to reduce the radiative component directed from the sun, through the roof, toward the building. There has to be an airspace on the side that you are protecting from radiation (i.e. the underside of the roof deck). That is why it makes sense to locate it there instead of on top of the insulation, combined with the fact that the surface must remain clean to keep it's low emissivity quality. There is a side effect of reflectance of heat with a material that is low emissivity on both sides. Wayne Jones (if someone from FSEC is listening and I am wrong about this, please call me out on it) -- Brown and Jones, Architects 16 N. Boylan Ave. Raleigh, NC 27603 (919) 831-2625 FAX 831-2626 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 12:20:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27136 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:20:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25623; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:07:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24927 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:07:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24912 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:07:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from CSMN5899.ntfac.ti.com (mck-ppp1-23.topher.net [208.199.183.229]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18538 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:04:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802261704.LAA18538@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: "greenbuilder" Subject: GBlist: What's In a Home Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:13:48 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2235 In response to the question about how much lumber goes into a home, I uncovered a very yellow clipping from the newspaper that I have from probably at least 7 years ago. It is from a report on housing trends from the NAHB and lists these items found in a typical 1700 SF home: 9726 board feet of lumber 3016 sf of sheathing (roof, wall, and floor) 243 sf of plywood for sheathing 55 cubic yards of concrete (poured + block) 3016 sf of exterior finish 1992 sf of roofing 2500 sf of insulation 6484 sf of gypsum wall board 90 lf of ducting 55 gal of paint 302 lbs of nails 750 ft of copper wiring 280 lf of copper piping 100 plumbing fitting for copper 170 ft of plastic waste line piping 70 plastic fittings 12 windows 10 int doors 4 ext doors 1 sliding glass door 2 tubs or 1 tub + shower stall 2 toilets 3 sinks 15 kitchen cabs. 2 turtle doves and a partridge in a pear tree! Regards, Paul Westbrook ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 12:20:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27163 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:20:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25739; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:12:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:08:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24977 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:08:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24971 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:07:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA07995 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:14:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 26 Feb 1998 09:02:31 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: PAINTING STUDIO FUMES To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA24973 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2236 Does anyone know of a good method for cleansing/refreshing the air in a large (1500sf) painting studio, where as many as 20 students might simultaneously be working with oils? I suppose an air exchanger would be needed. Any companies with web sites would be nice. Thanks, Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 12:21:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27187 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:21:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25816; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:13:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:08:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA25055 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:08:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA25045 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:08:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.107]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 7929600 ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:17:33 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980226120651.00694fe8@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:06:51 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: Dimmable Compact Fluorescent Lamp (CFL) In-Reply-To: <199802260700.CAA02055@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2237 >I just heard that Philips has introduced a compact fluorescent bulb, with a >standard Edison base and electronic ballast, which is dimmable using a >standard incandescent light dimmer. Does anyone know anything about this? >Actual performance, availability, reliability, price? I'm going to pursue >this elsewhere - if I learn anything, I'll share it. Any info anyone could >share would be greatly appreciated. > A company called Solium (from California I think) came out with a three-way and dimmable CFL a couple of years ago. I think they went out of business. Philips has been threatening to bring the product out for a long time (that is the worst part of going to trade shows like Light Fair, they show you some great new product and it is 3 years before it is widely available). According to my local Philips distributor the dimmable SLS will be available is a variety of wattages and cost about $23. He has been using a sample and has not experienced any problems. Philips says they should be available in the 1st quarter 1998. It is not yet widely available but should be soon. Another manufacturer of a dimmable CFL is Technical Consumer Products in Ohio, 800-324-1496, 216-765-0365, sales@yan.com, www.yan.com. They are available in 11, 15, 18, and 24 watt units with a helix shaped tube configuration. Have used them on a few projects over the past 6 months and have not had any failures. The cost is about $18 per unit. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 12:28:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27408 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:28:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26730; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:16:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA25996 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:15:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.39]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA25985 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:15:55 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4UMKa07795 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:21:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:21:31 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Lumber stats Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 82 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2238 >>Hi all--I've just spent a couple of unproductive hours on the net in search of (what seems to be) a very basic statistic, so I'm throwing it out to you pros. What's the average amount of lumber used, in board feet, in the average house built these days? Any pointers to overlooked sources of info would be very much appreciated. Thanks...................Sara. Sara Mock<< Sara The "average" house size is a moving target but I think the last stat I saw was around 2500 sf (not average as far as I'm concerned but that's another debate). I suppose you want all the lumber used in doors, windows, framing, plywood, cabinets, trim (I'll leave out furniture), built-ins, etc. Then there's the figuring out off the waste factor, stump bdft or dressed bdft.? I would imagine that smaller houses use a greater percentage of wood per square foot but that it's certainly not to much of a difference anyway. Well, I haven't a clue but I'll look around. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc, Contractors Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 12:28:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27414 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:28:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26728; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:16:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA25986 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:15:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.36]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA25981 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:15:53 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4OQWa05744; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:21:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <72c8fcc9.34f5a499@aol.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:21:26 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org, dmfoley@acadia.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Dimmable compact fluorescents Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 82 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2239 >>From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: dimmable compact fluorescents Dear Folks, I just heard that Philips has introduced a compact fluorescent bulb,<< David: I just recently picked up a cut sheet from my local Electric supply house which is stocking compact fluorescent bulbs from Technical Consumer Products (www.yan.com, eaddress sales@yan.com, 800/324-1496). These "SpringLamp Advanced Electronic" bulbs are dimmable to 20% and come in 11, 15, 18, and 24 watt (11watt=55 watt incandescent, 24=150watt, so _they_ say) and they look like a twist ice cream cone. They also have reflectors for use in recessed cans or spots. I haven't tried them yet but I will somewhere. BTW the color temp is 2700K. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave Assoc., Contractors Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 12:31:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27486 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:31:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27138; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:23:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:18:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26325 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:18:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26317 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:18:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.18] (blf18.acadia.net [205.217.217.18]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA05370 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:24:40 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:25:28 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: light colored or white roofs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2240 Matthew, I know I already pointed you toward the Florida Solar Energy Center on other topics, but I think that they'd have a treasure trove of information on this topic. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 12:55:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA28161 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:55:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29066; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:46:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:42:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28597 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:42:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28593 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:42:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (br-ppp14.hevanet.com [198.5.254.220]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14183; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:48:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34F5AA8D.B9A0201F@hevanet.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:46:55 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harry Rector , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Hydrogen peroxide References: <34E3E284.762BF6E3@ivnet.net> <3.0.2.32.19980226091712.006b86d8@paltech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2241 Hi, Harry-- Very funny!! I wonder what an MSDS for water would look like--"caution: can cause asphyxiation at prolonged exposures"? One clarification--this isn't the hydrogen peroxide concentration we buy at drugstores and use for sterilizing things like cuts. A 30% concentration is highly reactive--I used high-concentration hydrogen peroxide and manganese permanganate to make a little cannon when I was a kid. It could shoot a cork about three yards (neighbors' yards). Best, Mike Harry Rector wrote: > Jorg: > > I took a look at a Material Safety Data Sheet (see > http://www.chem.uky.edu/resources/msds.html#Internet for a master list of > sites) > The Baker MSDS posted to the Vermont SIRI collection > (http://hazard.com/msds) is pasted in below.. > > Apologies to the group for creating a rather long message, but it should be > instructive for those who've missed out on the glory of MSDSs. Buyers can > request an MSDS for just about anything that is bought these days. > ... Harry > =============================== > > J T BAKER CHEMICAL -- HYDROGEN PEROXIDE,30 % - HYDROGEN PEROXIDE,ACS (snip) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 13:00:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA28273 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:00:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29578; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:51:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:46:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28957 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:45:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28947 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:45:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA20400; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:51:18 -0800 Message-ID: <34F5AAD1.383178C2@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:48:01 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paul Westbrook CC: greenbuilder Subject: Re: GBlist: What's In a Home References: <199802261704.LAA18538@mail.topher.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2242 Hurrah for Paul, I knew someone would have a decent reference - I wasn't too far off at 12,000 if you include sheathings. Now it would be nice to find some current references that describe different approaches. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Paul Westbrook wrote: > In response to the question about how much lumber goes into a home, I > uncovered a very yellow clipping from the newspaper that I have from > probably at least 7 years ago. It is from a report on housing trends from > the NAHB and lists these items found in a typical 1700 SF home: > > 9726 board feet of lumber > 3016 sf of sheathing (roof, wall, and floor) > 243 sf of plywood for sheathing > 55 cubic yards of concrete (poured + block) > 3016 sf of exterior finish > 1992 sf of roofing > 2500 sf of insulation > 6484 sf of gypsum wall board > 90 lf of ducting > 55 gal of paint > 302 lbs of nails > 750 ft of copper wiring > 280 lf of copper piping > 100 plumbing fitting for copper > 170 ft of plastic waste line piping > 70 plastic fittings > 12 windows > 10 int doors > 4 ext doors > 1 sliding glass door > 2 tubs or 1 tub + shower stall > 2 toilets > 3 sinks > 15 kitchen cabs. > 2 turtle doves and a partridge in a pear tree! > > Regards, > > Paul Westbrook > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 13:11:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA28660 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:11:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00332; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:03:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:59:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA29958 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:58:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29952 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:58:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (br-ppp14.hevanet.com [198.5.254.220]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16241; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:04:19 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34F5AE4A.9E1B815D@hevanet.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:02:53 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jean Gallagher , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: PAINTING STUDIO FUMES References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2243 Hi, Jean-- My daughter is also a painter. I gave her some citrus-based thinner and brush cleaner to replace turpentine. It's made by Livos. She says it works fine, and she has gotten her teachers to try it out. They all agree they like the smell of turpentine better. Good example of source control conflicting with preference. It should be possible to ventilate the studio, with some care. There have been several cases in Oregon of air vented from labs or studios contaminating the air in adjacent spaces or buildings. Van-EE makes high quality heat recovery ventilators. Contact Venmar Ventilation, the manufacturer, at 1-800-567-3855. Best, Mike Jean Gallagher wrote: > Does anyone know of a good method for cleansing/refreshing the air in a large > (1500sf) painting studio, where as many as 20 students might simultaneously > be working with oils? I suppose an air exchanger would be needed. Any > companies with web sites would be nice. > > Thanks, > Jean > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 13:18:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA28868 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:18:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00914; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:10:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:06:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00485 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:05:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00481 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:05:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA8-p60.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.252]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA17764 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:12:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34F5AF58.55DB@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:07:20 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Light colored roofs References: <2391033@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2244 Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > > --- You wrote: > Marc wrote: > the use of a radiant barrier (on the underside of the roof > deck is best), > > What is the reasoning with the placement of the barrier, this is > instructive. > > Chuck > --- end of quote --- > It works as well on top of the ceiling insulation, but it is much more likely > to get dirty/dusty, in which case its reflectivity drops and it becomes less > effective at reflecting the radiant energy. Now I'm really confused. I'm talking about the reflective surface of the roofing itself, not on the insulation. The benefit of reflecting the solar gain before it enters the roof strata or the structure is documented clearly, what I don't follow is how reflecting the heat under the roofing is in anyway beneficial to the roof components themserlves. As an adjunct to the insulation for heat gain reduction to the conditioned space, yes, but by then it's already in the roofing materials and therefore the problem of thermal shock still remains. Am I simply misreading your post? Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 13:30:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA29197 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:30:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01889; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:21:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:17:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA01321 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:17:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01317 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:17:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.162.253.86] (d77.best1.net [205.162.253.97]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA14443 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:23:16 -0800 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:23:49 -0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: What's In a Home Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2245 >In response to the question about how much lumber goes into a home, I >uncovered a very yellow clipping from the newspaper that I have from >probably at least 7 years ago. It is from a report on housing trends from >the NAHB and lists these items found in a typical 1700 SF home: NAHB, BMC West Dimensions, Spring 1994. p.8 (or so says RMI's Primer on Sustainable Building) > >9726 board feet of lumber >3016 sf of sheathing (roof, wall, and floor) >243 sf of plywood for sheathing >55 cubic yards of concrete (poured + block) >3016 sf of exterior finish >1992 sf of roofing >2500 sf of insulation >6484 sf of gypsum wall board >90 lf of ducting >55 gal of paint >302 lbs of nails >750 ft of copper wiring >280 lf of copper piping >100 plumbing fitting for copper >170 ft of plastic waste line piping >70 plastic fittings >12 windows >10 int doors >4 ext doors >1 sliding glass door >2 tubs or 1 tub + shower stall >2 toilets >3 sinks >15 kitchen cabs. >2 turtle doves and a partridge in a pear tree! > >Regards, > >Paul Westbrook > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 13:30:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA29215 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:30:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02016; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:22:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:18:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA01405 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:18:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01399 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:18:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (st-ppp00.hevanet.com [198.5.254.174]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18755 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:23:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34F5B2E5.2C506835@hevanet.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:22:31 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Precautionary Principle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2246 Hi, all-- Oops! Sorry for the error--I posted the e-mail address for Rachel's Environment and Health Weekly. And the newsletter does not seem to have a web site. I would be glad to e-mail the article to anyone who requests it. It will be about 14k in size. Or, you can subscribe to the newsletter as follows: To subscribe (free) send email to rachel-weekly-request@world.std.com with the single word "subscribe" in the message (minus the quote marks). Back issues by gopher to gopher.std.com or gopher to igc.apc.org. Back issues, and many other datafiles, available by email: send to info@rachel.clark.net, with the single word HELP in message. Best, Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 14:00:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00073 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:00:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03564; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:52:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:48:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03204 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:48:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03200 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:48:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA21825; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:53:10 -0800 Message-ID: <34F5B951.53DF11AE@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:49:54 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@hevanet.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Precautionary Principle References: <34F5B2E5.2C506835@hevanet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2247 Hi Michael There is a web site for the article and the weekly at http://www.monitor.net/rachel/ I posted it last week to the list with an excerpt (where ya been) Great article and I hoped some discussion would follow as the principles definitely relate to the ethics of practice and material usage in environmental building. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Michael O'Brien wrote: > Hi, all-- > > Oops! Sorry for the error--I posted the e-mail address for Rachel's > Environment and Health Weekly. And the newsletter does not seem to have > a web site. > > I would be glad to e-mail the article to anyone who requests it. It will > be about 14k in size. > > Or, you can subscribe to the newsletter as follows: > > To subscribe (free) send email to rachel-weekly-request@world.std.com > with the single word "subscribe" in the message (minus the quote marks). > > Back issues by gopher to gopher.std.com or gopher to igc.apc.org. Back > issues, and many other datafiles, available by email: send to > info@rachel.clark.net, with the single word HELP in message. > > Best, Mike > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 14:32:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01065 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:32:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05363; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:23:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:19:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA04961 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:18:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA04957 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:18:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip17.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.36]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA74; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:25:00 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980226143454.006a18ec@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:34:54 -0500 To: obrien@hevanet.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Hydrogen peroxide In-Reply-To: <34F5AA8D.B9A0201F@hevanet.com> References: <34E3E284.762BF6E3@ivnet.net> <3.0.2.32.19980226091712.006b86d8@paltech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2248 Mike: The use and abuse of the MSDS is legendary, and a number of stories have come out that get better with each telling. One of my tracer gas buddies was not allowed to bring a GC into a nuclear power plant because he didn't have an MSDS for the carrier gas (nitrogen, at that). Ok with the electron capture detector (he had the wipe test certificate for the Nickel-13 ionization source). But no MSDS for nitrogen, no entry. He wrote one up on the spot, and got in... At first, I was concerned over which hydrogen peroxide MSDS to bring in, so I brought in the highest concentration. Most of the clauses are rather standard stuff. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 14:36:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01184 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05809; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:28:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:24:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05446 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:24:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05439 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:24:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust54.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.54]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id NAA13837 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:30:19 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34F5C348.7E4@gte.net> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:32:24 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: compact fluorescents for daylight sensors Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2249 Dear Listers, I've been told that it's not possible to use compact fluorescents in outside fixtures with daylight sensors. If this information is incorrect, please illuminate. Thanks. Cindy Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 14:44:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01383 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:44:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06501; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:36:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:32:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA06046 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:32:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06042 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:32:03 -0500 (EST) From: MXThompson@aol.com Received: from MXThompson@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4ZAQa27162 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:37:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <43b5a94e.34f5c485@aol.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:37:39 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Lumber Stats Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2250 Dear Sara, About 5 years ago, I did some research on the environmental impacts of the three major building materials -- wood, steel, and concrete. I remember coming across estimates of the amount of wood used in an "average" house, but can't put my finger on it now. However, two places you might look: "The CORRIM Report" -- "Wood for Structural and Architectural Purposes" in "Wood and Fiber", Vol. 8, 1976 or "Guide to Resource Efficient Building Elements", Steve Loken from Missoula, Montana, 1993. The first is a bit dated, but I'm not sure we've really changed the way we frame/use wood in homes all that much (except, of course, TJIs, Glulams, etc.). Also, what I do have is that approx. 70% of the wood used in an "average" home is framing lumber (e.g., dimensional lumber and plywood). This, more or less, sounds in the ballpark to me. Since the framing materials are really pretty easy to figure on whatever you want to call an "average home", you could extrapolate from there. Or, as another said, ask your nearest lumber supplier for some of their framing takeoffs. Hope this might help. Margo Thompson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 14:53:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01764 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:53:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07221; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:45:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:41:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA06842 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:41:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06836 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:41:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.87]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 8073500 ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:50:27 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980226143946.006986e4@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:39:46 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: White Roofs In-Reply-To: <199802261700.MAA24048@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2251 >Actually, I think this policy makes some sense. I don't have the numbers >handy, but I believe that the research documented that the cooling benefit >of light-colored roofs is only significant if attic insulation levels are >very low. Insulate well, and the roof color factor becomes negligible. >From the perspective of trying to justify the extra cost of a white roof with energy savings, I would agree with Nadav. In my experience a white rubber roof is more expensive than the standard black. On one recent commercial project (2200 sqft roof) the extra cost was $900. The computer simulation of the building showed an annual energy savings of about $60 (R38 roof insulation, gas heat pumps for cooling). It also did not affect sizing of the cooling equipment enough to change the size. Payback was just too long to justify the extra cost. So the policy may make sense from the individual building owner's perspective, but perhaps there are other reasons for light colored roofs in cooling climates. Already mentioned was the cooler roof deck temperatures that may extend the life of the deck. Not yet mentioned is the wider impact in terms of the urban heat island effect. All those black roofs absorbing heat, raising the ambient temperature around the buildings will have an effect on the energy use. The computer simulation tools I use don't take that into account (i.e. they don't simulate energy use if the ambient air was cooler). ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 15:02:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA02052 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:02:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07877; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:54:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:50:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07522 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:50:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07502 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:50:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA80164; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:54:14 -0700 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:54:14 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Wayne Jones Cc: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Roof radiant barrier In-Reply-To: <34F55C02.56DF@ntwrks.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2252 We also like radiant barriers on roofs for hot climates. We replaced OSB sheathing with a reflective (downward) cardboard under wood strapping under concrete tiles, all of which was over ceiling insulation. It made a major difference. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 17:42:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA07151 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:42:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA15768; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:34:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:29:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15091 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:29:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15085 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:29:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.37 (pm1-5.hoosier.net [206.106.67.37]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA03539 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:35:10 -0500 Message-ID: <34F5EE0A.75F@bloomington.in.us> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:34:52 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Discussion Subject: GBlist: hydrogen peroxide Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2253 Jorg My wife is extremely chemically sensitive and she uses hydrogen peroxide for a lot of things (gargle, disinfectant. etc.) It is a pretty simple compound (H202 I believe). It can be used to disinfect swimming pools (in a high concentration), so I would think it would be fine for cisterns. It isn't good to drink, but I believe if you rinse well, any residual will break down into water. John -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 17:44:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA07231 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:44:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16012; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:36:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:32:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15482 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:32:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15478 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:31:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.162.253.86] (d41.best1.net [205.162.253.61]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA18192 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:38:07 -0800 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:38:41 -0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: What's In a Home Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2254 On a similar track, does any one know a ballpark number for the percentage of house construction costs tied up in the exterior wall system? ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 17:58:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA07577 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:58:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16795; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:50:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:46:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA16420 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:45:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA16416 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:45:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.37 (pm1-5.hoosier.net [206.106.67.37]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA04034; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:52:01 -0500 Message-ID: <34F5F1FF.4815@bloomington.in.us> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:51:45 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jean Gallagher CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: PAINTING STUDIO FUMES References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2255 Jean The best bet would be to design a system that would be similar to that used in an operating room whereby fresh air moves across the people and is then exhausted. This is called displacement ventilation. I would doubt if most residential equipment would have sufficient capacity. You'll probably need to talk to an engineer or industrial hygenist. Also, check with ACTS (Arts, Crafts & Theater Safety) at 212-777-0062. They may be able to point you in a good direction, and they give out free advice! John -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 18:32:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA08591 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA18602; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:24:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:20:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA18282 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from pioneer.hmp.com (pioneer.hmp.com [38.184.171.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA18277 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:20:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by pioneer.hmp.com (1.38.193.4/16.2) id AA26301; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:22:01 -0700 Received: from exc.hmp.com(192.168.1.1) by pioneer.hmp.com via smap (V1.3) id sma026299; Thu Feb 26 16:21:12 1998 Received: by carson.hmp.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD42D3.4B2FD300@carson.hmp.com>; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:26:30 -0700 Message-Id: From: Peter Baston To: "'Greenbuilding Discussion'" Subject: RE: GBlist: hydrogen peroxide Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:26:28 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2256 I concur this was our old standby for lots of ailments in the wilds of southern Africa. >---------- >From: John Bower[SMTP:healthy@bloomington.in.us] >Sent: Thursday, February 26, 1998 3:34 PM >To: Greenbuilding Discussion >Subject: GBlist: hydrogen peroxide > >Jorg > >My wife is extremely chemically sensitive and she uses hydrogen peroxide >for a lot of things (gargle, disinfectant. etc.) It is a pretty simple >compound (H202 I believe). It can be used to disinfect swimming pools >(in a high concentration), so I would think it would be fine for >cisterns. It isn't good to drink, but I believe if you rinse well, any >residual will break down into water. > >John >-- >John Bower, The Healthy House Institute >http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us >430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 >Phone/fax 812-332-5073 >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 19:06:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA09536 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:06:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20119; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:58:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:54:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA19809 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19804 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA05864; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:59:14 -0800 Message-ID: <34F6010C.152DFCEA@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:55:56 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Bower CC: Greenbuilding Discussion Subject: Re: GBlist: hydrogen peroxide References: <34F5EE0A.75F@bloomington.in.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2257 Geez, does everyone hit the delete button when I post something negative about something. Here are three not so new references on H202 Floyd RA, Schneider JE. Hydroxy free radical damage to DNA. In: Vigo-Petfry C, ed. Membrane lipid oxidation. Boca Raton: CRC Press; 1990. Weitzman SA, Weitberg AB, Stassel TP, et al. Effects of hydrogen peroxide on oral carcinogenesis in hamsters. J Periodontol 1984;57:685-8. Ito A, Watanable H, Naito M, et al. Induction of duodenal tumors in mice by oral administration of hydrogen peroxide. Cann 1981;72:172-5. John Bower wrote: > Jorg > > My wife is extremely chemically sensitive and she uses hydrogen peroxide > for a lot of things (gargle, disinfectant. etc.) It is a pretty simple > compound (H202 I believe). It can be used to disinfect swimming pools > (in a high concentration), so I would think it would be fine for > cisterns. It isn't good to drink, but I believe if you rinse well, any > residual will break down into water. > > John > -- > John Bower, The Healthy House Institute > http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us > 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 > Phone/fax 812-332-5073 > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 19:32:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA10863 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:32:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA21446; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:20:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA21167 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:20:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA21163 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:20:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id T[M13917; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:20:22 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: White Roofs Message-ID: <19980226.181445.8159.1.strawboss94@juno.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980226143946.006986e4@cyberia.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2,5-6,8 From: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:20:22 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2258 On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:39:46 -0500 Marcus Sheffer writes: >On one recent>commercial project (2200 sqft roof) the extra cost was $900. The >computer>simulation of the building showed an annual energy savings of about >$60 What kind of roof covering are you talking about.? Here standard 3 tab shingles are the same cost regardless of color. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 20:38:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA13449 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:38:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA24116; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:30:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:25:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA23759 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA23755 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:25:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust118.tnt6.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.17.118]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA05143; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:31:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34F617D0.5805@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:33:05 -0800 From: David Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Jean Gallagher Subject: Re: GBlist: PAINTING STUDIO FUMES References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2259 Jean Gallagher wrote: > > Does anyone know of a good method for cleansing/refreshing the air in a large > (1500sf) painting studio, where as many as 20 students might simultaneously > be working with oils? I suppose an air exchanger would be needed. Any > companies with web sites would be nice. > > Thanks, > Jean We recently completed a paint studio addition for a chemically-sensitive client. We installed a NewAire HE-2500 heat exchanger. She loves it. This studio is about 800 sf, the exchanger does 110 cfm; they make larger models rated at 210 cfm. We purchased this one through Real Goods (www.well.com/www/realgood/); a quick websearch just gave me a handful of suppliers you could try also. Seth Melchert Master Builders ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 21:16:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA15042 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25752; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:08:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:04:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA25366 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:04:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25361 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA106022; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:09:11 -0700 Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:09:11 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: John Bower , Greenbuilding Discussion Subject: Re: GBlist: hydrogen peroxide In-Reply-To: <34F6010C.152DFCEA@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2260 John Salmen: How do you reconcile the academic bad new and real world good news? Now is there any good academic news and bad real world experience? Based on both, would you refrain from treating dirty cistern water with hydrogen peroxide? If so, what would you do? Jorg Ostrowski ___________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, John Salmen wrote: > > Geez, does everyone hit the delete button when I post something negative > about something. Here are three not so new references on H202 > > Floyd RA, Schneider JE. Hydroxy free radical damage to DNA. In: Vigo-Petfry > C, ed. Membrane lipid oxidation. Boca Raton: CRC Press; 1990. > > Weitzman SA, Weitberg AB, Stassel TP, et al. Effects of hydrogen peroxide on > oral carcinogenesis in hamsters. J Periodontol 1984;57:685-8. > > Ito A, Watanable H, Naito M, et al. Induction of duodenal tumors in mice by > oral administration of hydrogen peroxide. Cann 1981;72:172-5. > > > John Bower wrote: > > > Jorg > > > > My wife is extremely chemically sensitive and she uses hydrogen peroxide > > for a lot of things (gargle, disinfectant. etc.) It is a pretty simple > > compound (H202 I believe). It can be used to disinfect swimming pools > > (in a high concentration), so I would think it would be fine for > > cisterns. It isn't good to drink, but I believe if you rinse well, any > > residual will break down into water. > > > > John > > -- > > John Bower, The Healthy House Institute > > http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us > > 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 > > Phone/fax 812-332-5073 > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 21:38:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA15591 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:38:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26468; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:30:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:26:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA26163 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:26:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA26159; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:26:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA24700; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:32:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-11.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.139) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma024649; Thu Feb 26 20:31:42 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980226212718.006f3b20@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:30:42 -0500 To: approve-strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: strawbale test web site info Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2261 On EREN located at Straw Bale Wall Test (2/25/98) -------------------------------------------------------------------- The Buildings Technology Center (BTC) at the Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL), in cooperation with the U.S. Department of Energy and the Development Center for Appropriate Technology, are evaluating the thermal performance of a wall constructed with straw bales to address the energy efficiency claims made of this type of construction as well as to provide an interactive educational experience to science students from Knoxville, TN and Kiev, Ukraine. Students involved in this virtual classroom will view a straw bale wall construction video posted on this site; participate in video conferencing and realtime chat room and online forum discussions with BTC scientists and other experts; and perform their own research to determine the thermal performance of the straw bale wall. | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 23:13:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA17898 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:13:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA29822; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:05:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:01:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA29193 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:00:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA29189 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:00:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.18] (blf25.acadia.net [205.217.217.25]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA15539 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:06:57 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:07:40 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: hydrogen peroxide Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2262 Oxygen, while necessary to life,also has toxic properties. Oxygen-based metabolism produces toxic by-products, such as hydroxyl radicals in our cells. (No, "hydroxyl radicals" is not the name of a political movement from the 60's.) Many of the beneficial health effects of substances like vitamin c, vitamin E, red wine, green tea, etc., are due to anti-oxidants. If you rinse with hydrogen peroxide for dental health (as I do) should probably take an antioxidant supplement. This is sort of tangential to Green Building, but certain machines, like photocopiers, generate ozone and hydroxyl radicals, and other elements of modern life also assault us with oxygen based toxins. Personally, given the choice of the antioxidant supplements or red wine, I choose red wine. Doctor's orders... John Salmen, I read your post and thought it was great. This is to second your views. Jorg, I would treat the cistern with peroxide or with an ozone-generating swimming pool cleaner. If I used the peroxide, I would flush the cistern extremely well after treatment - the same as if I'd used chlorine. Then I'd take antioxidant supplements or red wine. Or green tea, if you'd rather. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 23:13:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA17905 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:13:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA29830; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:05:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:01:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA29206 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:00:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA29200 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:00:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.18] (blf25.acadia.net [205.217.217.25]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA15546 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:07:01 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:07:44 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: What's In a Home Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2263 quote: >On a similar track, does any one know a ballpark number for the percentage >of house construction costs tied up in the exterior wall system? > >______________ >Steve McGrath end of quote The ballpark number I've used for years is 15%. Anyone else? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 23:13:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA17906 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:13:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA29828; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:05:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:00:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA29157 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:00:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA29152 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA14677 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:05:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-43.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.171) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma014591; Thu Feb 26 22:05:08 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980226230408.006fb718@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:04:11 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Why Cope? (Societal Cost Estimates of Sea-level increase) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2264 Why Cope? (Societal Cost Estimates of Sea-level increase) --------------------- Interesting, Alex. Has the Dutch government done any studies on the added maintenance and possible flood damage if their system was overwhelmed by sea level rise? I wonder. Visit Venice for a (gentle) look down the time tunnel. There may be an useful cost-benefit analysis opportunity here on "coping" with dikes and levies, but the most cost effective approach would be to not _have_ to cope...> by: NOW, TODAY !! _coming to our senses as a species and becoming more energy efficient and less emissive of atmospheric pollutants to help stave off the potential warming. I know you for example drive a 50-mpg car, but millions of others have gas guzzlers, live in homes that use 4 or 5 times more energy than they need to, and make countless other habitual decisions every day in the sake of comfort in our "busy lives" and other excuses. Take me for example; living in the country, using a computer during peak generating hours (albeit to make a living), buying a home that just barely meets the MEC (and even that took some effort and taking a lot of crap), and other things I can't think of right now. So, I wonder when the utility industry will take "us" to court for bad mouthing electric power' (beef...?) environmental (health...?) effects, and "making" people consume less? Maybe NAHB will join them in a class action suit against all those noisy environmentalists; you know the ones... Horrors! Alex, you might just have the pull to get Ms Oprah into a green home, and the topic onto her widely watched show (yup - TV, why waste time when you can waste energy too...) -- give it a try! I really believe the answer is not in the numbers, but in all of us. <- We -> need to change. ----------- At 12:05 PM 2/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >Regarding the economic costs of sea level rise: > >While I too found Bion's analysis quite interesting, I think we may be >underestimating the drive to out-engineer nature. Much of Holland is below >the mean sea level. They spend millions--possibly billions--of dollars to >keep the oceans out with dikes and dams and pumps. But they probably don't >spend trillions. | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 23:46:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA18666 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:46:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA01133; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:38:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:33:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA00690 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:33:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA00683 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:33:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA15908; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:38:53 -0800 Message-ID: <34F64295.4A2BCC9E@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:35:33 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: John Bower , Greenbuilding Discussion Subject: Re: GBlist: hydrogen peroxide References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2265 Now, that really is the question - if I can find it in there. Now academic bad news or the question; 'is there any good academic news' probably implies some dismissive criticism of methodology and the question about is there any 'bad real world experience?' is a rhetorical one. I'm actually sympathetic to both opinions but not for the intent you suggest. Oxygen is toxic. Bodies have very elaborate and evolved systems to deal with oxidizers - the action of enzymes, the release of anti-oxidants. I won't even pretend to understand or be able to describe the processes involved but the significance of mutagenic effects from the concentrated introduction of a substance has somewhat become the basis for our understanding of environmental illness - thats a recent real world social experience that is unfortunately adding to our knowledge. Combine that with some understanding of the complications of multiple chemical concentrations and I think there is at least some cause for consideration even without the real world experience that will probably result as carcinogenic evidence. To me real world experience is not the anecdotal experience of consumers or franchised researchers for a few decades but is a cultural understanding of the mechanisms of survival that is a much longer history of experience. Hitting a cistern with hydrogen peroxide, ozone, or chlorine is about on the same level of progressive solution as Hiroshima. Effective in some minds but a little excessive and probably not that useful in the long term. As to the cistern. What is its purpose. Potable water? What is the source? How long is it stored? Is it being used without further filtration? Is this wise? Is there contamination now? What does 'dirty' mean? If the contamination is algae, oxidation might not be effective - flushing the bird shit from the roof might be more effective. Simple aeration might be a better solution for introducing oxygen for more basic bacterial problems. And if in desperation you want to hit the supermarket for a real world solution try a handful of lime or save the trip and throw in some copper and silver change both methods have an appreciably longer history of cultural usage. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > John Salmen: How do you reconcile the academic bad new and real world > good news? Now is there any good academic news and bad real world > experience? Based on both, would you refrain from treating dirty cistern > water with hydrogen peroxide? If so, what would you do? > Jorg Ostrowski > ___________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 26 23:46:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA18697 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:46:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA01191; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:38:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:34:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA00748 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:34:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00743 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:34:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa21.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.150]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id XAA01876 for ; Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:40:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34F642A7.2BF2@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 23:35:51 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Hydroxyl Radicals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2266 David, It's funny you should bring this up, I used to hang with a group of Hydoxyl radicals back around '67-68, very strange crew. They spent all of their time making these elaborate plans for blowing up Nabisco's corporate headquarters. They even kidnapped Betty Crocker dog once and demanded she read their manifesto on prime time TV, turned out she really didn't give a shit about the dog and that was the end of that. Not alot of people ever heard of them, they just never evolved into a meaningful political entity. If you got the munchies in the middle of the night there was no place better than HQ, as they were fond of calling the dive they all shared in Battle Creek. Wow, thanks for that little stroll down memory lane. Sorry, I get carried away by the strangest things sometimes, aliens mostly. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 01:27:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA20947 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:27:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA03506; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:19:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:14:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA03247 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:14:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo23.mail.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.151]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA03243 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:14:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4KPSa05359 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:23:59 -0500 (EST) From: JNH2 Message-ID: <8d6c772.34f65b14@aol.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:23:59 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Light color roofs Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2267 While white roof surfaces/membranes likely do have a measurable effect on the building's cooling load, there is another factor to consider in the overall scheme of things. The roof membrane's PRIMARY purpose is to keep the building weather-tight, while being exposed to the harshest conditions any building component experiences, AND being (usually) the least accessible component for periodic maintenance. The roofing consultants that I've dealt with (Firestone, Carlisle, Versico, Genflex) seem to agree that the carbon black added to the membrane's composition aides a great deal in protecting the membrane structure, whether it be TPO or some form of rubber or EPDM or PVC, or any of the proprietary variants. A well detailed and insulated black/gray roofing system will render nearly insignificant any off set gains from a white membrane in the overall picture. Also, I believe I have seen data indicating that there is a good deal more embodied energy in a white/light colored membrane due to the problems associated with UV degradation of the membrane (unless the "white" is acheived with ballast stone or crushed rolled on surface treatment, i.e. composite shingles) Just my two cents worth Jim Holdcraft David Mason & Associates Architects & Engineers St. Louis ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 01:55:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA21541 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:55:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA04382; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:47:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:43:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA04060 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:43:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from owlnet.rice.edu (owlnet.rice.edu [128.42.49.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA04052 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:43:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from great-horned.owlnet.rice.edu (great-horned.owlnet.rice.edu [128.42.49.4]) by owlnet.rice.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA04359 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:49:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (khffman@localhost) by great-horned.owlnet.rice.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA25640 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:49:17 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: great-horned.owlnet.rice.edu: khffman owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:49:17 -0600 (CST) From: Keith Hoffman To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: hydrogen peroxide In-Reply-To: <199802270204.VAA25381@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2268 Jorg, Why not do UV disinfection? That would work against everything but crypto and giarda (which should be easy with an inexpensive filter). Are you worried about something else? Of course, UV doesn't work with turbid water so I'm assuming your cistern water isn't that bad. Or am misunderstanding your intended use for H202? Check out http://www.waterhealth.com/ for one uv system. I understand you can run them off a PV or two easily. Note: I have no personal experience with UV disinfection. BTW, whoever said Texas was a state of environmentally friendly builder must have been thinking of Austin or some place else. Houston is land of level-the-land-tract-housing as far as I'm concerned. Sincerely, Keith Hoffman Rice University, Dept. of Ecology & Evol. Biology Houston, TX khffman@owlnet.rice.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 07:22:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA28676 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:22:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA10698; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:14:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:07:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA10407 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:07:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802271207.HAA10407@solstice.crest.org> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:54:50 +1000 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "P.W.Heijmen" Subject: GBlist: Re: CO2 TAX in the Netherlands? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2269 At 06:31 24-2-98 -0700, you wrote: >Peter: Does the Netherlands have a CO2 tax on fossil fuels now? >Jorg Ostrowski Yes, there is an ecotax on energy in general. Of course, this does not apply to the big users of energy, like industry and greenhouses. Also, it cannot be applied on kerosine (although there has been some discussion on that). In practice, there is ecotax on petrol and on electricity for homes. The policy is that the tax should be regulating, it should influence the amount people use and it should make saving measures economical. I am not really sure about the details though. I'm not sure where the money goes, or which part of the total taxes on petrol are really ecotax. Peter . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Read about sustainable building in the Netherlands at http:/www.bk.tudelft.nl/~bk336342/scriptie/scriptie.html . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 08:16:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA29886 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:16:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11962; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:08:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:04:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11521 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:04:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11517 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:04:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA112748; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 06:09:19 -0700 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 06:09:18 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Keith Hoffman Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: hydrogen peroxide In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2270 re: "Why not do UV disinfection? That would work against everything but crypto and giarda (which should be easy with an inexpensive filter)." _________________________________________________________________________ Keith Hoffman: We will be using both a UV filter and a slow sand filter. Jorg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 08:18:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA29912 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:18:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12089; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:10:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:06:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11626 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:05:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from snail.ecs.umass.edu (snail.ecs.umass.edu [128.119.91.94]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA11618 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:05:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from kira.ecs.umass.edu (isp11.ecs.umass.edu [128.119.92.161]) by snail.ecs.umass.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16431; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:09:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34F6BBB5.E1C87836@kira.ecs.umass.edu> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:12:24 -0500 From: Tom Genovese X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Snyder.Robin@epamail.epa.gov CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: flat roof replacement References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2271 Snyder.Robin@epamail.epa.gov wrote: So far, I've gotten a quote for a rubberized asphalt roof and a "Miracote" roof. I looked at the Miracote website, it wasn't very helpful. > We had to replace a flat roof on an apartment in Albany, NY. Our friend and well-respected roofer used the asphalt/rubber composite roof -- said it would last 20-30 yrs (with regular coatings). Again, his attention to detail was much greater than the previous roofer's; he replaced the inadequate roof drain, added several plies around pipes & corners, and used industrial grade cements not available at Home Depot. The rolls were melt-stuck right onto the old roof, saving the labor of ripping it out. As I recall, this was against fire code in Albany... Tom -- Tom Genovese CEERE- Center for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy University of Massachusetts at Amherst http://www.ecs.umass.edu/mie/labs/ceere/index.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 08:37:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA00430 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:37:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12827; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:29:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:25:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12522 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:25:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12518 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:25:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31372; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 06:30:23 -0700 Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 06:30:22 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: John Bower , Greenbuilding Discussion Subject: Re: GBlist: hydrogen peroxide In-Reply-To: <34F64295.4A2BCC9E@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2272 You asked: "As to the cistern. What is its purpose. Potable water? What is the source? How long is it stored? Is it being used without further filtration? Is this wise? Is there contamination now? What does 'dirty' mean?" John: Further to your questions of above,the purpose of the cistern is drinking water. The source is our roof. Roof material: elastomeric polymer painted over asphalt shingles from which there is still some leaching of surfactants. Water has been stored since last summer/fall. We have UV and a slow sand filter not quite connected yet, but I would like to clean both cisterns of any dirt, earth, roof material, and possibly red algae (?) before depending on other filtration systems. That is why I was asking about the use of hydrogen peroxide in the cistern. Perhaps there is a better way of cleaning the water without emptying the water (wasteful) and scrubbing the cisterns (time consuming)? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 08:57:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA00907 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:57:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13530; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:49:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:45:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA13269 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:45:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo21.mail.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA13264 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:45:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4IGMa01472; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:50:31 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl Message-ID: <233a23c4.34f6c4a9@aol.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:50:31 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org, smcgrath@buildamerica.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: What's In a Home Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 82 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2273 >>Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:38:41 -0100 From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: What's In a Home On a similar track, does any one know a ballpark number for the percentage of house construction costs tied up in the exterior wall system?<< Steve, My bids on new houses run about 2.2% for 1 story 2x6 stud wall with plywood (or about $3,500 in a $160,000 house), all things being equal. Not much is it? And for this 2.2% the debate rages on over SIPS, strawbales, timberframe, etc, etc. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave Associates, Contractors Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 10:47:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03815 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:47:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17588; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:39:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:34:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17217 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:34:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17211 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:34:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sc27.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.220]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA18063 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:40:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34F6DD51.1DF8@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:35:45 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: E-ZINE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2274 Bion, Samantha, Olivia, et al: The magazine seemed to generate some interest but now seems to be sputtering a bit, maybe the the logistics of jumping directly into dead tree journalism is just too daunting a task starting out. Consider the notion off getting our collective feet wet with an E-ZINE as the natural first step, many members of this group might be more familiar/comfortable working in an electronic format. The benefits would seem to be lower cost, quicker startup, easier editting/communicating, a certain flexability. It would afford the opportunity to work out a vast array of logistical details prior to committing any substantial outlay on the slick, broad based magazine that would appear to be the eventual goal. I don't believe this would neccessarily be in lieu of that magazine but perhaps in preparation for it. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 10:54:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA04043 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:54:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18077; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:46:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:42:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17799 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:42:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17793 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:42:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (san2asc1-49.flash.net [209.30.152.49]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA26578 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:48:22 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34F6E2A0.2DEDC842@flash.net> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:58:24 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Messages for Greenbuilder Group Subject: GBlist: Re: Light Colored Roofs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2275 Three quick points on this topic: 1. Cost being the same (as in residential shingle roofs), if it helps a little--do it. Chuck's point was well-taken regarding the life of the roofing material and sheathing. 2. Marc's excellent quantification puts this in a much clearer light. Add your cost per btu of cooling and there's the added savings (for today). Considering the past posts I've seen about a 400-year house, how many of you think the cost of energy is going to go down? I suspect that small savings today could be a major impact in the future. 3. Figuring the direct out-of-pocket cost is one thing. The overall environmental savings from light-colored roofs is another. Finally, as I look out my home-office window, I can see that I have the ONLY light-colored roof within my view. Averaging in size around 2,200 sq ft, these homes predominantly have dark charcoal grey roofs, with the occasional dark brown thown in. It brings to mind the heated argument I had with my builder's color coordinator over my insistence on a light tan roof. This same builder had never used reflective sheathing (Tech Shield, previously Cool Ply) in one of the hundreds of houses they have built locally. I imagine my subdivision will be quite popular this summer with glider pilots looking for a strong updraft. Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 11:04:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04451 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:04:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18674; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:56:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:52:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18382 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:52:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18378 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:52:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA02146 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:57:27 -0500 Message-id: <2403503@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 27 Feb 98 11:04:48 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Light Colored Roofs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2276 --- You wrote: Add your cost per btu of cooling and there's the added savings (for today). Considering the past posts I've seen about a 400-year house, how many of you think the cost of energy is going to go down? I suspect that small savings today could be a major impact in the future. and Averaging in size around 2,200 sq ft, these homes predominantly have dark charcoal grey roofs, with the occasional dark brown thown in. It brings to mind the heated argument I had with my builder's color coordinator over my insistence on a light tan roof. --- end of quote --- 1) One way to look at it is the energy savings that accrue from the small incremental change. The other may be more significant - if you do all of the small incremental stuff, does the mechanical cooling system go away? This is a bigger effect. If it already went away, then roof color doesn't matter! 2) My understanding of residential shingles is that there is very little difference between your light tan shingles and the dark grey ones in terms of solar absorptivity. All shingles are pretty absorptive - I have white ones on my garage, and they sure get hot real fast when the sun hits! Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 11:45:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA05692 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:45:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20700; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:37:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:33:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA20327 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:32:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20323 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:32:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA25365; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:38:05 -0800 Message-ID: <34F6EB00.7DE68D1@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 08:34:09 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: John Bower , Greenbuilding Discussion Subject: Re: GBlist: hydrogen peroxide References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2277 Jorg Despite my partial Dutch heritage, there can be a problem with being too clean especially if you are intending to use a slow sand filter. Their initial operation is dependent upon a certain amount of biological material to form the schmutzdecke. One problem in the operation of a SSF can be water that is too clean as in the case of oxidized water. It may be that the initial run of the filter will be shortened after the layer is formed but that simply means its doing its work for you. You should have a second SSF filter in line for those periods of cleaning and startup. The second storage (collecting water from the SSF before passing the UV) should be emptied and cleaned (good time consuming exercise) as the water that passes the UV needs to be totally free of any particulate. I'm assuming here that you are using the SSF as a biological filter not simply as a roughing filter for UV disinfection. In what I describe above the UV is simply a method of ensuring that there is no subsequent contamination after it passes the SSF. Let us know how the system works for you. Since you live in the City I would be particularly interested in any testing of roof water and subsequent potable water for reductions of any industrial contaminants. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > You asked: "As to the cistern. What is its purpose. Potable water? What is > the source? How long is it stored? Is it being used without further filtration? > Is this wise? Is there contamination now? What does 'dirty' mean?" > > John: Further to your questions of above,the purpose of the cistern is drinking > water. The source is our roof. Roof material: elastomeric polymer painted over > asphalt shingles from which there is still some leaching of surfactants. Water > has been stored since last summer/fall. We have UV and a slow sand filter not > quite connected yet, but I would like to clean both cisterns of any dirt, > earth, roof material, and possibly red algae (?) before depending on other > filtration systems. That is why I was asking about the use of hydrogen peroxide > in the cistern. Perhaps there is a better way of cleaning the water without > emptying the water (wasteful) and scrubbing the cisterns (time consuming)? > Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 11:51:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA05860 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:51:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21199; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:43:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:39:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA20797 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20793 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:38:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (san2asc1-49.flash.net [209.30.152.49]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA14345 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:45:09 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34F6EFEF.7C32EDEB@flash.net> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 10:55:11 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Light Colored Roofs References: <2403503@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2278 Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > --- You wrote: > Add your cost per btu of cooling and there's the added savings (for today). > Considering the > past posts I've seen about a 400-year house, how many of you think the cost of > energy is going to go down? I suspect that small savings today could be a major > impact in the future. > > and > > Averaging in size around 2,200 sq ft, these homes predominantly have dark > charcoal grey roofs, with the occasional dark brown thown in. It brings to mind > the heated argument I had with my builder's color coordinator over my insistence > on a light tan roof. > --- end of quote --- > > 1) One way to look at it is the energy savings that accrue from the small > incremental change. The other may be more significant - if you do all of the > small incremental stuff, does the mechanical cooling system go away? This is a > bigger effect. If it already went away, then roof color doesn't matter! > > 2) My understanding of residential shingles is that there is very little > difference between your light tan shingles and the dark grey ones in terms of > solar absorptivity. All shingles are pretty absorptive - I have white ones on > my garage, and they sure get hot real fast when the sun hits! > > Marc > Marc, Good point about the "incredible disappearing mechanical cooling system". But with the high ambient temperatures and humidity in South Texas in the cooling season, I can't imagine this (short of underground dwellings) happening here. Second, could I have been wrong all this time in my understanding of the effect of reflectivity, regardless of the roofing material?? I'd sure like some further reference on this lest I promulgate bad info to others. It also sounds like I'm not the lone ranger operating under this apparent misconception. Finally, to all: I've noticed in several threads, but especially in this one, some confusion arising from the differing perspectives of large commercial construction and small (1 or 2 family) residential construction. It might save a little bandwidth (and confusion) if we clarified that point early in our posts. Just a suggestion. Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 12:13:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA06505 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:13:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22274; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:05:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:01:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21955 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:01:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21949 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:01:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.26]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 1475300 ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:04:07 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980227120001.00698330@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:00:01 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: CFLs outside Cc: Cindy/Mike Shea In-Reply-To: <199802270204.VAA25381@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2279 >I've been told that it's not possible to use compact fluorescents in >outside fixtures with daylight sensors. If this information is >incorrect, please illuminate. Thanks. By daylight sensors I am assuming you mean a photocell. A photocell simply turns lights on and off based on the ambient light level (essentially a switch). This should have no affect on a CFL. If by daylight sensors you mean a dimming system then a standard CFL cannot be used (see recent discussions on dimmable CFLs). In outside fixtures, in cold climates, I would be sure to use electronic ballasts or specify cold-weather magnetic ballasts. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 12:18:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA06657 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:18:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22672; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:10:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:06:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22317 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:06:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22310 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:06:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.26]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 1478400 ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:09:00 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980227120454.00698330@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:04:54 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: White Roofs Cc: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) In-Reply-To: <199802270204.VAA25381@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2280 >On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 14:39:46 -0500 Marcus Sheffer >writes: >>On one recent>commercial project (2200 sqft roof) the extra cost was >$900. The >computer>simulation of the building showed an annual energy >savings of about >$60 > >What kind of roof covering are you talking about.? Here standard 3 tab >shingles are the same cost regardless of color. > Relatively flat roof on a downtown property in York, PA. The project used a Carlisle rubber roof. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 13:35:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA08875 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:35:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26550; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:27:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:23:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26157 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:22:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26151 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:22:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA02548 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:28:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-19.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.147) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma002534; Fri Feb 27 12:28:10 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980227132711.007017c8@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:27:13 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Conductivity (k): foam board, and other materials Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2281 ASHRAE: HOF, 1997 Pg 24.4 / 24.5 (in most engineering libraries ~:o} --------------------------------------------------------------------------- (note these are "k" factors, so to get BTU/hr-ft-degF, divide by 12) (be careful of nomenclature since there are two kinds of PS board, and Styrofoam(tm) is a registered trademark of DOW Chemical, Midland, MI) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Polystyrene {BTU/hr-ft2-degF) IP units Expanded PS (CFC-12, "extruded") 0.20 Expanded PS (HCFC-142b, "" ) 0.20 Molded bead stock (true "expanded" PS) Density 1.5 (pretty common) 0.24 Cellular poly isocyan. 0.16-0.18 Cellular phenolic (CFC-113) 0.12 (closed cell) "" (open cell) .... 0.23 (big hit ~ blowing agent loss) Note: some of above materials are relatively new and ASHRAE TC4.4 has issued a cautionary statement in Guide and Data books about these values over time. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Comparison Exterior Building Sheathing Products Low density Particleboard 0.71 Waferboard 0.63 Mineral fiberboard, wet-felted 0.34 ("roof insulation") Spray applied Pulyurethane (SPUF) 0.16-0.18 Spray applied Cellulose 0.29-0.34 Spray applied glass-fiber 0.27-0.27 Organic bonded glass fiber (board) 0.25 --------------- >Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:10:03 -0400 (EDT) >From: Motofumi.Tohda@oberlin.edu >Subject: GBlist: GB List: styrofoam >does anyone know the conductivity of styrofoam? > Moto Tohda | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 14:02:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA09611 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28483; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:54:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:49:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA27855 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:49:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA27849 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:49:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA05181 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:55:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-19.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.147) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma005167; Fri Feb 27 12:55:07 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980227135409.00703064@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:54:11 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Steel Stud Thermal Issues Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2282 Steel Stud Thermal Issues: --------------------------------- The thermally defective aspects of steel framing have been well documented, along with a variety of solutions that largely drive up wall costs and may not be economically competitive in all areas of North America. Steel framing promotion has reached juggernaut proportions, and is really a market share growing out of commercial building. Be careful of the blather about protecting the nation's forests, etc. We need to see more life-cycle assessment studies comparing the cradle to grave consequences of wood -v- steel. Even at high recycled content levels, the energy cost of steel smelter is high, which now in most cases harvest, processing, and transportation costs are a major component of lumber prices. (Wood quality and old-growth forest impacts other stories.) Steel studs already clobbered traditional masonry back-up in commercial building, and now using "green" marketing (look at the data reported in EBN and make your own decisions on how...green...) steel studs have made a major move into residential. Steel Stud thermal challenges are indeed well known and documented --------------------------------------------------------------------- All major energy standards including: 90.1-R (draft), 90.1-1989, 90.2-1993, 90/2 code equivalent version, the CABO/International Model Energy Code (1993 and later versions I believe) and several of the better state energy codes such as Minnesota and Indiana, already identify and require specific thermal analytic calculations to evaluate the R-value impact in the whole wall of steel framing. In most cases wall R-value is de rated by some factor and the designer then has to compensate either by "beefing" (sorry Oprah) the wall, or with another thermal envelope tradeoff. The factors vary by stud gauge, thickness of wall, the type and R-value of stud-bay insulation, and a -big- deal is the type of sheathing spec'ed. Obviously if you have a 40% to 60% "hit" on the structural wall conductance, then applying measures like diagonal bracing and at least 1-inch (2.5cm) foam insulating sheathing (which you may also detail as the air-barrier...) drives down the thermal bridging a lot. This, however, becomes a costly wall compared to traditional framing or even ICF, SIP and pre-insulated masonry alternatives. For more information: ORNL (except their web site is remodeled and all my bookmarks are wacky every time I go there...) Am. Iron and Steel Institute NAHB Research Center (some of the more balanced work) ---------------- you wrote For start, metal studs will reduce the nominal wall cavity R-value by about 50% , depending on center to center spacing and size of studs. This important but obscure fact is well hidden in ASHRAE literature, for some odd reason. Tom Anderson | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 14:05:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA09695 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:05:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28881; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:57:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:53:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA28306 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:52:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA28293 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:52:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA03813 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:57:37 -0500 Message-id: <2405651@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 27 Feb 98 14:04:57 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Conductivity (k): foam board, and other materials To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2283 --- You wrote: (note these are "k" factors, so to get BTU/hr-ft-degF, divide by 12) (be careful of nomenclature since there are two kinds of PS board, and Styrofoam(tm) is a registered trademark of DOW Chemical, Midland, MI) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Polystyrene {BTU/hr-ft2-degF) IP units --- end of quote --- Actually, the values given are NOT BTU/hr-ft2-degF (which is conductance C, not conductivity k) - they are BTU-in/hr-ft-degF. So to get R value per inch of thickness, just take the reciprocal. Example: Expanded PS (CFC-12, "extruded") 0.20 The R value per inch is 1/0.20, or R-5. Marc Rosenbaum (a picky nerd) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 14:30:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA11143 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:30:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00258; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:22:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:18:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA29847 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:18:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from images.netaddress.usa.net (image03.netaddress.usa.net [204.68.24.75]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29842 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:18:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 19498 invoked from network); 27 Feb 1998 19:19:26 -0000 Received: from www02.netaddress.usa.net (204.68.24.22) by realimage03.netaddress.usa.net with SMTP; 27 Feb 1998 19:19:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 24955 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Feb 1998 18:51:52 -0000 Message-ID: <19980227185152.24954.qmail@www02.netaddress.usa.net> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:51:52 From: CURT WHITEWAY To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Alternatives to PVC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2284 I am researching an area of infomation right now, and thought you might have suggestions/contacts/information. I am researching the use of PVC (poly vinyl chloride) and looking at PVC alternatives. I am digging into alternatives for PVC and my focus area right now is on Water delivery systems; ie: plumbing pipes, water drainage, septic systems, etc. What do I need? Well, first I am not sure if you have seen any info on this issue which might apply but thought I would ask. If so, could I get information sent to me? You can email me here or send it to me at the address at the end of this message. Would you be able to suggest any contacts I can talk to that may give me help, or possible places I can research this information? And I am looking for manufacturers and resellers of these products. Would you know where to get a hold of that type info? I know some of this research had been done, and would rather not re-invent the wheel, so to speak. If I can find sources that can give me the initial data I would be able to do a much more thorough job in finding alternatives to PVC's. Thank you for your help and time. I appreciate it. Curt Whiteway c-whiteway@usa.net ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 14:34:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA11268 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:34:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00671; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:26:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:22:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA00241 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:22:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.waymark.net (ns.waymark.net [207.18.144.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00229 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:22:13 -0500 (EST) From: kahless@ns.waymark.net Received: from [207.18.145.206] (dalmax1-119.waymark.net [207.18.145.119]) by ns.waymark.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA27330 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:30:53 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: kahless@ns.waymark.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:31:54 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re:dimmable compact fluorescents Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2285 I just got the new Real Goods catalog and noticed they offer the dimmable compact fluorescent. It's not much, but here's what the catalog says: (any typos are mine). Sam === Philips Lighting has taken compact fluorescent technology into the 21st centruy with its innovative, new triple-tube design. The unique configuration makes these among the smallest energy-saving CFL lamps available. These bulbs feature flicker-free electronic ballast, and are 2-1/4 inches wide at the base. All are UL listed. Finally, The World's First And Only Dimmable Compact Fluorescent ----------------------- No special wiring is required to take advantage of this new dimmable CFL by Philips. Compared to incandescent, you'll save 70 percent in electrical costs, and enjoy the same warm lighting. Fits virtually any socket, and replaces up to a 90 watt incandescent (1500 lumens). 6-3/4 inches long. Mexico. Electronic ballast Lamp life: 10,000 hours Operating temperature: 32-140 degrees F Dimmable Earthlight 23 watt $29.95 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 15:26:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA12678 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:26:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03429; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:18:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:14:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA03115 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:14:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03108 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:14:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA09444; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:19:22 -0800 Message-ID: <34F71EFD.1EE693E2@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 12:15:58 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Caaradrbl CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, smcgrath@buildamerica.com Subject: Re: GBlist: What's In a Home References: <233a23c4.34f6c4a9@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2286 Caaradrbl wrote: > Steve, > My bids on new houses run about 2.2% for 1 story 2x6 stud wall with plywood > (or about $3,500 in a $160,000 house), all things being equal. > Not much is it? And for this 2.2% the debate rages on over SIPS, strawbales, > timberframe, etc, etc. Yes its a good point that the wall is such a small component of cost. Even as regards function a conventional wall represents only 10-15% energy loss so increasing the performance of the wall system at the expense of other components does not make as you suggest make a lot of sense. Still every area need refinement and for walls where infiltration and thermal bridging account for a large percentage of loss I've not understood why even within that budgeted cost of 2.2% and standard wall construction there have not been consistent changes in practices. The most basic change simply being a reduction of framing members (reduces cost, embodied cost and increases insulated area) - increased spacing - single plate - balloon framing These should have evolved as basic practices within standard framing and then have led to even more work on reducing material usage but for some reason have not. I often think it is unlikely that we will see much significant departure in wall systems (SIP's, etc) until we have at least some energy related code directives for standard wall systems or some other form of mandated change in practice. Since we have some structural concepts embedded in the code in the form of minimums for material sizing and usage it might not be inconcievable to establish some maximums. Especially as homes seem to be incorporating more glazed areas I've seen walls with window openings so overframed as to leave no room for any insulation. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 15:45:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13191 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:45:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04618; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:37:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:33:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04138 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:32:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04129 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:32:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.101.126]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA23888; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:37:37 +0000 Message-ID: <34F7173E.F3E15360@which.net> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 19:42:55 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marcus Sheffer CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: White Roofs X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.3.32.19980226143946.006986e4@cyberia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2287 15 years may be a long payback time for something which lasts only 10 years, but how long do you expect a roof to last? Isn't taking a longer term view a part of greenbuilding? Malcolm Scott Marcus Sheffer wrote: > On one recent > commercial project (2200 sqft roof) the extra cost was $900. The > computer > simulation of the building showed an annual energy savings of about > $60 > (R38 roof insulation, gas heat pumps for cooling). It also did not > affect > sizing of the cooling equipment enough to change the size. Payback > was > just too long to justify the extra cost. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 15:45:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13201 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:45:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04632; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:37:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:33:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04143 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:32:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04126 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:32:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.101.126]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA23895; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:37:41 +0000 Message-ID: <34F71F90.2151BD8@which.net> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:18:26 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mcshea1@gte.net CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: compact fluorescents for daylight sensors X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <34F5C348.7E4@gte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2288 I have a Phillips ecotone PL electronic-T which is a CF and they state on the box "Not suitable for dimming, electronic switches, photocells, timing devices and dawn to dusk sensors". Why? I don't know. Malcolm Scott Cindy/Mike Shea wrote: > I've been told that it's not possible to use compact fluorescents in > outside fixtures with daylight sensors. If this information is > incorrect, please illuminate. Thanks. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 16:13:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA13945 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:13:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06190; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:05:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:01:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05867 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:00:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA05861 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:00:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA10226; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:06:18 -0800 Message-ID: <34F729FE.5A2B05E5@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:02:54 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CURT WHITEWAY CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Alternatives to PVC References: <19980227185152.24954.qmail@www02.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2289 Hi Curt I started a similar search last year with the same objective (water/waste piping as part of looking at reducing chlorinated plastic usage in homes). I lost most of my research in a computer screw up. Greenpeace has compiled a lot of research on both pvc usage and alternatives (they have an excellent table of alternatives and manuf. somewhere that I've not been able to find again. Two starting points are: http://www.greenpeace.org/~usa/campaigns/toxics/pvcfacts/pvcfacts.html http://www.greenpeace.org/~usa/reports/toxics/PVC/cradle/dcgtoc.html A non chlorine based plastic alternative is polyethylene (one common usage of this is the flexible perforated drainage pipe in common usage in res. construction). It is not commonly adapted to delivery and supply systems and part of what I was starting to do is see what components were readily available to form alternatives to abs piping for waste systems at least. As for water supply. I felt it was prudent to maintain copper usage because of all the unknowns about contamination from materials especially with the wide variety of water amendments and long term effects. I thought it would be best to take a good look at the design and sizing of systems as a method of reducing material usage i.e. smaller supply lines operating at different pressures depending on usage, etc. Let me know what you come up with and repeat the request (if and when I get my files back together I can come up with supplier names. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. CURT WHITEWAY wrote: > I am researching an area of infomation right now, and thought you might have > suggestions/contacts/information. > > I am researching the use of PVC (poly vinyl chloride) and looking at PVC > alternatives. I am digging into alternatives for PVC and my focus area right now > is on Water delivery systems; ie: plumbing pipes, water drainage, septic > systems, etc. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 16:45:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA14856 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:45:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA08205; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:37:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:33:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07479 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:32:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07473 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from CSMN5899.ntfac.ti.com (mck-ppp1-19.topher.net [208.199.183.225]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA23766 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:29:25 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802272129.PAA23766@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: "greenbuilder" Subject: GBlist: House Cost Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:22:48 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2290 quote: >On a similar track, does any one know a ballpark number for the percentage >of house construction costs tied up in the exterior wall system? > >______________ >Steve McGrath end of quote >The ballpark number I've used for years is 15%. Anyone else? >David Foley >Holland and Foley Building Design >232 Beech Hill Road I built a SIP home and the SIP walls & roof installed came to 15.2% of my budget. Paul Westbrook ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 16:45:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA14873 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:45:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA08248; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:37:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:33:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07511 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:32:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07500 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:32:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from CSMN5899.ntfac.ti.com (mck-ppp1-19.topher.net [208.199.183.225]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA23769 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:29:26 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199802272129.PAA23769@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: "greenbuilder" Subject: GBlist: State of "green" in Texas Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:39:17 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2291 >Ketih wrote: >BTW, whoever said Texas was a state of environmentally friendly builder >must have been thinking of Austin or some place else. Houston is land >of level-the-land-tract-housing as far as I'm concerned. Austin has some activity going, but the rest of the state is not doing much. I live in the Dallas area and it was terribly difficult to find a builder to build my passive solar home. The only optimization going on in the Dallas area is optimizing the developer profit. Energy efficiency, solar optimization, water conservation, . . . . not even on their radar screen. They just mow down a native meadow or wood and squeeze as many houses in as their real estate counterparts on the city council will zone for. I offered 20 builders my consulting services after my house won a national efficiency award and not a single one even hinted at any interest. I'm attacking the consumer end. By having open houses and participating in the National Tour of Solar Homes, I'm finding that there are many consumers who want to build a better house. If we can just find a few developers to get on board there is a great niche in the market. Paul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 17:24:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA16193 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:24:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA11190; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:16:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:12:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA10893 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:12:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10889 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:12:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA01624 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:17:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-41.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.169) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma001600; Fri Feb 27 16:17:14 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980227171616.007062d8@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:16:18 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Conductivity (k): foam board, and other materials Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2292 //OOPS - I know there will be some heat on this... so to speak// Conductivity Units Correction -- in the message the correspondent specifically asked for "k" and everyone was giving him R which is a thickness dependant unit. So, I in haste to get out the values forgot to put the inch term in the units: correct units R = (degF - ft2 - hr) / BTU conductivity (k) = (BTU-in) / (h-ft2-degF) conductance (C) = (BTU/ (h-ft2-degF) ----------- corrected table header --------------- > (note these are "k" factors, so to get BTU/hr-ft-degF, divide by 12) > (be careful of nomenclature since there are two kinds of PS board, and > Styrofoam(tm) is a registered trademark of DOW Chemical, Midland, MI) >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Polystyrene {BTU-in/hr-ft2-degF) IP units | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 17:43:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA16733 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:43:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA12040; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:35:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:31:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA11685 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:31:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11680 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:31:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA03602 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:36:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-41.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.169) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma003585; Fri Feb 27 16:36:29 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980227173532.0070c504@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:35:33 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Radiant Barriers - position? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2293 Radiant Barriers -- under deck positioning is recommended for RBS: 1. less propensity for life-time dusting (dust increases emittance, NG) 2. less prone to damage than over insulation layer when people walk in attic 3. less likelihood of seasonal moisture "damming" on underside of floor RBS that could wet insulation through dripping condensate 4. relative ease of installation to underside of roof rafters or top-chord of the roof trusses. 5. use cheaper one-sided RBS, with low-emissivity side facing attic cavity 5. ventilates fairly well if their is soffit-to-ridge venting. comment: In an unfinished (due to funding problems with client) study I helped conduct nearly 10 years ago at the NAHB Research Center, preliminary field test data obtained in ~50 homes in Northern Virginia showed no statistically significant Air-conditioning savings from retrofit installation of RBS in residential attics. (State: commercial run, two-ply, perforated, on-floor, ~e-0.15 new) In 1989-1990, DOE issued a "Radiant Barrier Fact-sheet" (sic) that may still be available from the Alliance to Save Energy, in Washington, DC. It contains calculation work sheets to compare it against conventional insulation retrofit. If they don't have it I could scan it and put it on our website. ------------ you wrote -------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:33:51 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Subject: GBlist: Light colored roofs Marc wrote: > the use of a radiant barrier (on the underside of the roof deck is best), What is the reasoning with the placement of the barrier, this is instructive. Chuck | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 17:51:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA16957 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:51:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA12498; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:43:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:39:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA12165 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA12161 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:38:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.57] (uA1-a0.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.1]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA08824 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:45:20 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34F5F1FF.4815@bloomington.in.us> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:52:08 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: PAINTING STUDIO FUMES Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2294 John wrote: >The best bet would be to design a system that would be similar to that >used in an operating room whereby fresh air moves across the people and >is then exhausted. This is called displacement ventilation. I would >doubt if most residential equipment would have sufficient capacity. >You'll probably need to talk to an engineer or industrial hygenist. >Also, check with ACTS (Arts, Crafts & Theater Safety) at 212-777-0062. >They may be able to point you in a good direction, and they give out >free advice! > >John Thought I'd chime in on the painting stuff. I'm with John on displacement ventilation being a good idea for activities that release contaminants. I've used it in any number of occupational and lab settings and tested it in classrooms. I;ve found that with some things sequence is important and with others not. This is a case where sequence is important. You want the airflow to transport clean air to the occupants and transport contaminants away from them. In an art studio, the geometry of painter, sources (pallette, paint box, canvas) and, at times living model, may make it difficult to actually arrange appropriate geometry. The situation becomes more difficult if this is an art class with many painters surrounding a model. My first thought was to try displacement ventilation (supply cool air at floor level and exhaust at the ceiling, sort of filling the room up with higher density, cleaner air from below). In this sort of system, each person with skin temperature of around 96 deg. F becomes a stack. A plume of warming air surrounds them, sheeting up their bodies and dripping off their heads. This draws the fresher air from lower down, up past their face. It's possible this would work pretty well with the scattered sources (until they start wiping paint on their sweatshirts and put a source inside the sheeting fresh air). When all's said and done, it may be fairly complex to be assured that you'll get a better ventilation effectiveness than 1. The simplest approach may be to look through the MSDSs, get rid of all the stuff with like, lead, mercury, arsenic, methyl ethyl chloride, substitute with stuff that has the lowest toxicity, irritant and alergic potential, and supply a fair amount of outdoor air to dillute the unavoidable contaminants. When people are the major sources, ASHRAE suggests 15 cfm/person, if there's some office equipment lying around too, they say 20 cfm a person, if it's a smoking lounge, they say 60 cfm a person. Lastly, there are some real good resources for art related issues (health effects, industrial hygiene practice, subsitute materials) in the journal "Art Hazard News" and a book "Health Hazards Manual for Artists" by Michael McCann. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 18:11:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA17466 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:11:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA13361; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:03:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:59:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13023 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13018 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:59:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.57] (uA1-a0.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.1]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA13856 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:05:31 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:12:16 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: What's In a Home Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2295 >On a similar track, does any one know a ballpark number for the percentage >of house construction costs tied up in the exterior wall system? > >______________ >Steve McGrath Steve, Can't say what it'd be now, but when I was building residences (late 70's to mid 80's), I broke that kind of stuff out. We were building exterior walls for between $5 and $7 a square foot of wall. Typically, for an 8 foot high wall, gross wall area was about 80% of floor area (unless we had vaulted or higher ceilings). Back then we were putting up houses between $55 and $75/ sq. ft. Excluding the windows, that would make 8 foot walls less than 7-8% of cost (including driveways, water, sewage, backfill, grade and seed - no landscaping). At the same time we were putting in windows that ranged from around $14 to $30 a sq. ft., windows being usually 12% to 20% of floor area. All the windows we used were triple low iron glass performance or better. I figure coffee and donuts were about 5% of total costs, but as a few folks have pointed out, the bags, boxes and cups ended up recycled as insulation in CMU's and wall cavities. Don't even think about what goes into a sump hole. Hey, thanks for the memories - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 18:28:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA17999 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:28:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14146; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:20:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:16:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13778 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:16:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.42]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13767 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:16:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from RodLambert@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4VWGa04960 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:21:35 -0500 (EST) From: RodLambert Message-ID: <5b587a95.34f74a82@aol.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:21:35 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: radiant barrier Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2296 To echo an earlier question I would like to hear what the effect of reflecting the heat back into the roofing material has on the the thermal deterioration of the the roofing material (esp. asphalt shingles). It would surely increase the steady state temperature and the resultant thermal expansion and contraction which in turn should decrease their life cycle. In my experience shingles on south slopes of roofs don't last as long as north slope shingles. Are there not trade offs here to consider? Rod Lambert Development Management Second Neighborhood Group Ecovillage at Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 18:40:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA18314 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:39:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14700; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:31:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:27:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA14392 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:27:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14388 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:27:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from LitHowie@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4EUHa03502 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:33:11 -0500 (EST) From: LitHowie Message-ID: <6970a1d0.34f74d39@aol.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:33:11 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Radiant Floor / HWH Efficient Storage Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2297 I'm building my energy efficient house (~2300 sq ft) with a radiant floor hydronic heat system and wonder if anyone can tell me which may be the most energy-efficient way to design the hot water storage. I need enough domestic capacity for a 70 gallon whirlpool (only 2 adults in house & no conflicts with simultaneous usage of water demanding activities) & hate to burn the standby energy needed to maintain a 50 or 80 gal HWH just so I have enough water for the whirlpool!! Also, I'm not sure if it is very efficient to have to inject cold water into the radiant line because the temp is too high coming off the heater. I'm thinking you cool it down & then have to overheat it just to cool it down again. So these are my questions: 1)should I have a separate small energy-efficient HWH for the floor demands that can be set to a low temp & turned off in non-heating season and then a larger solar HWH for domestic use? or 2) have 1 large unit and use mixing valves. or 3) will a quick recovery efficient HWH unit supply enough for both domestic & floor? Heat Transfer Products, INC makes a 95% HWH unit with a heat exchanger & 125 gal 1st hour rating but only in 45 gallons. 4) Is it more thermally efficient to put the tubing in the slab or in a gypsum cement layer on top of the slab? Thanks for any help you all can give me. Reading this board for the past months has really helped me to make the best energy-efficient decisions in my building process. Kate Howard ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 20:40:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA21819 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:40:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA19212; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:32:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:28:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA18841 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:28:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18835 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:28:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa5-p47.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.239]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id UAA21435 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:34:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34F76885.AA3@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:29:41 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: reflective barrier/studio venting Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2298 Bion, Thanks for the clarification. Jean, Perhaps an even better solution is to move away from oils all together, friends of mine produce Golden Artists Colors, if you are interested in checking there paints out check here: www.goldenpaints.com Their phone is 607-847-6154 and the head of health and safety is Ben Gavitt. They not only make the finest artist colors, they also do custom work, they will formulate anything you can imagine. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 21:05:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA22385 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA20066; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:57:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:53:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA19782 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:52:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19778 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:52:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust198.tnt6.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.17.198]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA09187; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:59:06 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34F76FE5.5C13@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:01:09 -0800 From: David Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: What's In a Home References: <233a23c4.34f6c4a9@aol.com> <34F71EFD.1EE693E2@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2299 John Salmen wrote: > I've not understood why even > within that budgeted cost of 2.2% and standard wall construction there have not > been consistent changes in practices. > > The most basic change simply being a reduction of framing members (reduces cost, > embodied cost and increases insulated area) > - increased spacing > - single plate > - balloon framing > > These should have evolved as basic practices within standard framing and then > have led to even more work on reducing material usage but for some reason have > not. John et al: As a builder, here is the bind with high-efficiency framing: I equate this stuff with cheap tract kind of work. Here in the SF Bay Area I have yet to find an engineer who promotes this kind of framing. In fact, in the last 9 years (since the Loma Prieta EQ) there has been a dramitic increase in the engineering rigor of house frames. 6x8 headers for a 6' patio door opening, extended blocking "collectors" for openings in shear diaphragms, etc etc. For myself I can only agree: this goes hand in hand with a sense of durability and quality, which in turn promotes a sense of sustainability in our products. Single plates and 24" framing make a flimsy wall in my opinion. Watch the wall surfaces wiggle in and out too. Are there any esteemed engineers out there on the GBlist who can argue convincingly that efficient framing is consistent with quality? I'd love to hear your arguements. But until then, I will stick to the miles of blocking and conservative but solid schemes I see on S1, S2 etc. Seth Melchert Master Builders ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 21:34:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA23061 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:34:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21026; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:26:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:22:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20785 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:22:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20777 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:22:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa20.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.149]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id VAA04218 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:29:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34F774FA.71CB@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:24:12 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Framing lite Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2300 I have to agree with David, everything I have learned in construction in the last 28+ years tells me that the slim benefits in energy savings that might result from lightweight framing techniques is easily offset in lose of structural integrity. I have learned to love the California corner and the Arkansas plywood header, pywood corners and foam fields or metal bracing and all foam sheathing, but single top plates and 2' O.C. framing just feel wrong. There simply has to be better choices for added energy efficiency than eliminating structural members. I live in Central NY, the middle of the Lake Effect Snow Capitol of the country, (we just got 2' of wet, heavy snow in 24 hours) I couldn't possibly with the kind of lightweight framing that I also associate with cheap, temporary tract housing, certainly not enduring housing built for generations to come. I too would be interested in sound engineering arguments for more efficient framing models, if they can satisfy the durability and safety questions. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 27 22:16:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA23991 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:16:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA22081; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:08:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:04:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA21828 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:04:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21824 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:04:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.201.48] (usr2a48.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.48]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA00348 for ; Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:10:38 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34F6EFEF.7C32EDEB@flash.net> References: <2403503@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:12:32 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Light Colored Roofs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2301 >Second, could I have been wrong all this time in my understanding of the >effect of >reflectivity, regardless of the roofing material?? I'd sure like some further >reference on this lest I promulgate bad info to others. It also sounds >like I'm >not the lone ranger operating under this apparent misconception. For residential roofs, here is the data from FSEC that we reported on in EBN back in September 1993: White EPDM roofing reflects 75% solar radiation White elastomeric coating reflects 70% solar radiation White asphalt shingles reflect 25% solar radiation Gray asphalt shingles reflect 20% solar radiation Black asphalt shingles reflect 5% solar radiation Black EPDM roofing reflects 5% solar radiation So, white shingles are better than black ones, but not nearly as good as white EPDM. Nadav Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 28 00:18:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA26754 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 00:18:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA25559; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 00:10:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 28 Feb 1998 00:05:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA25285 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 00:05:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA25279 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 00:05:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from sharon.mindspring.com (user-37kbbia.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.174.74]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA32347 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 00:11:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802280511.AAA32347@camel8.mindspring.com> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Sharon Allsup" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 00:12:32 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Roof Life Expectancy Reply-to: imperatrix@mindspring.com In-reply-to: <199802272133.QAA07549@solstice.crest.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2302 > 15 years may be a long payback time for something which lasts only 10 > years, but how long do you expect a roof to last? Isn't taking a longer > term view a part of greenbuilding? Yes, but .... the lifetime of the roof is going to vary depending upon where you are and the local conditions, etc etc (just like everything else, it seems). By way of example, years ago when we househunted in Virginia the FRP plywood issue was all the rage. We were given figures of 20+ years as the lifespan of a quality roof, and anything replaced before that time must have been defective, or FRP, to get documentation as to why it was replaced, and so on. 15-year old roofs (that had never contained FRP) were passing inspections just fine. So of course when we moved to Ft Worth area of Texas and started househunting our suspicions were immediately roused by seeing a 2 year old roof on an 8 year old house. The explanation was the weather - large, regular hail, especially, beats the crap out of roofs. Both our real estate agent and homeowner's insurance agent said 10 years was a very lucky, longlived roof - either that, or it probably did need to be repaired but since it hadn't actually leaked yet, the owner wasn't aware of it. May 1995 gave us 5" hailstones (long-suffering sigh from the insurance agent who said roofs typically get replaced every 5 years due to weather). Each spring and fall we usually had a couple of storms with 1" or larger hail, 70+mph winds, the usual. I would love a roof that would hold up to that for the 20+ years expected in Virginia. Might help the insurance rates a bit (which were easily 4x higher for the same valuation). I'll concede that those lifespan figures are second-hand. And I'm just glad our 1990-vintage roof survived fine, am waiting for the results of an inspection ... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 28 10:54:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10585 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:54:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07534; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:46:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:40:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07192 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:39:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07186 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:39:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:39:49 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 6048 invoked by uid 0); 28 Feb 1998 15:46:36 -0000 Received: from ppp-15.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.208?) (198.175.11.208) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 28 Feb 1998 15:46:36 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: compact fluorescents for daylight sensors Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2303 >I have a Phillips ecotone PL electronic-T which is a CF and they state >on the box "Not suitable for dimming, electronic switches, photocells, >timing devices and dawn to dusk sensors". Why? I don't know. >Malcolm Scott Malcolm, Perhaps they are covering themselves from warranty and liability problems. Photocells (which are in dawn to dusk sensors) are always hooked up through some electronic circuit to switch the light on and off. I've seen lights that do a lot of "indecisive" flickering when the ambient light is just on the verge of the switching darkness level. That rapid turning on and off for a few minutes every day could damage PL lights' ballasts. Basically, dimmers turn lights on and off very rapidly (typically 60 times a second), and that on/off stuff is what is bad for the fluourescent ballasts (and for the dimmer's too when they interact with a ballast). The on/off oscillation at just the right ambient light levels can be exacerbated when there is feedback where the light being turned on is bright enough or is bounced into the photocell, thereby "telling" the photocell, "no, it isn't dark anymore" ... the circuits get into an oscillating feedback loop. Some dawn to dark sensors probably have timing circuits in them to prevent these sorts of problems. That is, every time the circuit decides to turn on or off, it also starts a timer which won't allow it to switch back for several minutes. Without a timing circuit though, I think dawn to dark sensors could damage the PLs. Phillips can't control what type of dawn to dark sensor you use, so they cover themselves by a flat admonition not to use them. If what you are interested in using is the indoor ambient light controls that dim (or turn off) indoor lights when indoor daylight levels rise high enough, the same situation would apply. So, find a supplier of PLs and sensors that sells the two together and is knowledgeable about their ability to work together and who is willing to guarantee it. There are a few energy efficient lighting specialty suppliers out there that should be able to help you. C Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 28 12:04:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13014 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:04:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09717; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:56:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:50:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09208 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:49:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09203 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:49:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.114] (pm1a13.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.143]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA20429; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:55:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:55:59 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980227185152.24954.qmail@www02.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: CURT WHITEWAY From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Alternatives to PVC Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2304 >I am researching an area of infomation right now, and thought you might have >suggestions/contacts/information. > >I am researching the use of PVC (poly vinyl chloride) and looking at PVC >alternatives. I am digging into alternatives for PVC and my focus area >right now >is on Water delivery systems; ie: plumbing pipes, water drainage, septic >systems, etc. > ---End of Quoted Material--- You might want to read the article we ran in Environmental Building News in January/February 1994 titled "Should We Phase Out PVC?" This includes a fairly lengthy discussion of alternatives that is still relatively current. BTW, for those listers not familiar with Environmental Building News, the newsletter doesn't carry advertising; we are 100% supported by subscriptions. The cost $67/year for individuals and small businesses ($127 for larger businesses). All back issues since our inception in 1992 through April 1997 are available on a CD-ROM called the E Build Library, which sells for $95 for EBN subscribers ($165 for non-subscribers). This will be replaced with a new edition in about two months that will include all issues through the end of 1997. Buyers of the CD now can get the new edition when it comes out for a handling charge of $10. For details on any of this, or to get a faxable order form, visit our Website: http://www.ebuild.com or call toll-free 800/861-0954. (Apologies for the shameless commerce--but it's how we afford to research and write about green building.) Alex Wilson, Editor & Publisher Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 28 12:04:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13021 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:04:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09721; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:56:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:50:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09254 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:50:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09214 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:49:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.114] (pm1a13.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.143]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA20423; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:55:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 11:55:57 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: cneurath@northnet.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: compact fluorescents for daylight sensors Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2305 Relative to the discussion on dimming compact fluorescent lamps and use with photosensors: The Philips EarthLight(R) Dimmable CFL that I referred to in an earlier posting is indeed suitable for dimming _and_ use with photosensors. I quote from the box in front of me: "This product is designed for use in standard incandescent sockets, or sockets controlled by wall dimmers, photosensors, or timers marked 'incandescent only'." Regarding use outdoors, the packaging says "Outdoor use requires an enclosed fixture. Reliable operation down to -10 degrees F." CFLs not made specifically for dimming should _not_ be used in dimming circuits, because of fire concern. C Neurath may be correct regarding photosensor circuitry; I'm not sure. But it doesn't seem to matter with the Philips 23-watt EarthLight Dimmable CFL. -Alex Wilson Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 28 16:04:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA20511 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:04:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18479; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:55:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:51:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18132 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:51:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18127 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:51:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.175] (li-ppp10.hevanet.com [204.119.60.175]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01634 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:57:24 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199802282057.MAA01634@hevanet.com> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 13:03:14 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: obrien@hevanet.com (Michael O'Brien) Subject: GBlist: Framing Lite (Was "What's In...") Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2306 Hi, Seth-- Although I'm not an engineer, I'd like to respond to your challenge about efficient framing in walls. In a house, the primary job of wall framing is to hold up the structural loads. These loads bear down vertically on the wall framing such that members are usually acting like posts or columns. And, for typical loads (40 lbs. per SF dead load and 10 lbs per SF live load) a two-story house framed with 2x6's at 16" on center is way overbuilt. (The exception might be a house in a climate where there's lot's of heavy wet snow on the roof.) Earthquake loads shake the house, so the first thing the engineers do is to install elements that will a) make the whole house act more like a single rigid box, and b) keep the house from flying apart during the shaking. The first involves things like shear walls, panels and adhesives; the second, lots of metal ties, straps and braces. In Oregon, there's about a thousand dollars worth of extra metal in the structure to meet the earthquake codes. Anyway, adding more wall studs doesn't contribute much to either one of these goals. A 6x header may be way too big for just the vertical loads that are carried down and around a window, and yet, the extra two inches of depth isn't really adding much to the overall rigidity of the structure. With 16" OC framing, think about the extra weight you're putting in the wall and that equation, F = MA --the more Mass there is to Accelerate, the more Force there will be to topple the wall over in an earthquake. All things being equal, a lighter structure will do better in an earthquake than a heavy one. Steve Loken likes to bring up the example of old barns--they don't collapse straight down; they rack over. That's because even old rotted studs can carry vertical loads pretty well. In my opinion, wasteful framing just satisfies someone's insecurities and makes the building stronger in ways that aren't needed. And THAT'S cheap, because we do it at the expense of the forests. Best, Mike >As a builder, here is the bind with high-efficiency framing: I equate >this stuff with cheap tract kind of work. Here in the SF Bay Area I have >yet to find an engineer who promotes this kind of framing. In fact, in >the last 9 years (since the Loma Prieta EQ) there has been a dramitic >increase in the engineering rigor of house frames. 6x8 headers for a 6' >patio door opening, extended blocking "collectors" for openings in shear >diaphragms, etc etc. > >For myself I can only agree: this goes hand in hand with a sense of >durability and quality, which in turn promotes a sense of sustainability >in our products. Single plates and 24" framing make a flimsy wall in my >opinion. Watch the wall surfaces wiggle in and out too. > >Are there any esteemed engineers out there on the GBlist who can argue >convincingly that efficient framing is consistent with quality? I'd love >to hear your arguements. But until then, I will stick to the miles of >blocking and conservative but solid schemes I see on S1, S2 etc. > >Seth Melchert >Master Builders ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 28 17:29:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA22356 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:29:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA21260; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:17:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA20974 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:17:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA20969 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:17:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA14889; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 14:22:31 -0800 Message-ID: <34F88D6A.13E074D0@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 14:19:23 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael O'Brien" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Walls (was Framing Lite (Was "What's In...") References: <199802282057.MAA01634@hevanet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2307 Hi Seth, Chuck, I was well through an overly long reply when some glitch erased it all and I now see that Michael has done a better and briefer job than I was doing. Thank you Michael. One of the things that struck me was the fact that we communicate value and quality by tradition. And for framing I have to agree that a lite frame looks cheap but that bias is relatively recent. In my area at least historical examples of early stick framing and the prefabricated models of banks, homes, offices that were shipped around at the turn of the century were much more economical of framing. Also the housing that is currently being exported is also lighter in framing. I think the challenge is to build with less which in itself implies building with more technique, quality - the problem is communicating that. Ironically we probably have more forest resource than the petroleum resources commonly used in the manufacture of other materials - so my feeling is that wood frame systems will be the status quo here for quite some time. This thought was part of the motivation for my original comments. The other thought was that we overbuild and overvalue structures for their function. Most structures are extensively rebuilt or remodeled early in their life and the structures do not accommodate this without a lot of waste and expense. In other words most of what is being built is fulfilling short term needs in a long term structure. We are becoming cluttered with buildings and landfills are cluttered messes of broken sticks from the remnants of even more building. Though there are attempts to reuse framing material its generally quite a few levels below its original value. That is my biggest problem with conventional framing is that it is a disposable material - so if it is to be used we should use less and work at alternatives. Personally as far as wood framing is concerned I prefer loads carried directly through large dimension material - this may (and generally does) represent an equally excessive use of material because the large sizing of a frame piece generally only relates to one or two functions but the material itself retains a higher use value and generally does not stand in the way of changes. Unfortunately this method is only really being used to advantage in smaller commercial or multi-unit residential construction as an alternative to steel frame. My use of this system is definitely as alternative I have yet to see how it could ever be incorporated in any mainstream but it does give me the advantage of having a building closely engineered to its structural function, no overbuilding or underbuilding. Well, another long wandering post so while I'm at it a few more comments still. My first post mentioned conventional walls represented 15% or so of energy loss. The rate of heat loss in a framed area is about 30% greater but it probably does represent a small number in the overall, especially when compared to a glazed area. So what improvements should we make for wall areas, and at what expense or proportion of overall cost. I for one would like to see walls be nothing more than infill either of low value in themselves or having a high potential for reuse. Prior to stickframing walls generally had this advantage or were structured in more defined layers. Any thoughts about what current values we should give to walls in the overall. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 28 20:09:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA26846 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:09:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA25996; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:00:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:56:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA25679 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:56:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25672 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:56:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip219.efn.org [204.214.97.219]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA25527; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 17:00:30 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: , "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: After a recent run to the dump . . . Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:32:13 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd44a9$7a8c0380$db61d6cc@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2308 Lane County Commissioner Peter Sorenson Peter, I was at the dump (Glenwood Transfer Station) the other day and your name came up. As the president of the Eugene EcoBuilding Guild chapter I pay close attention every time I take a load of construction debris to the dump. I'll easily spend 45 minutes seeing that every little piece of wood goes into wood recovery. Of course every bit of metal gets recycled as well as cardboard and paper. Of course yard trimmings go into compost either at my house or at Rexius. You get the idea: I send as little stuff as possible to landfill. So it breaks my heart when I'm at "the pit" with what's left of my load and I see a couple of guys dumping a huge load of wood, metal, cardboard and tree limbs in there. That's what I saw there last time so I went up to the front office and talked with a guy named Leonard. He said he understood and agreed with my points but it was out of his hands. He said though, that the County Commissioners had some say in the matter. Have you read "The Ecology of Commerce" by Paul Hawken? If not, I could send you a photocopy of an article he had in the Utne Reader a few years back. In either case, he paints a very gloomy picture of the world from an environmental point of view and then he turns right around a lays out an entirely plausible set of solutions to our problems. My favorite idea there is "environmental tax reform". Taxing us on our income is like taxing our creativity, ambition and industriousness. In the future, only wealthy people should pay income tax, but most tax reveue should come from taxes or "green fees" placed on environmentally undesirable goods and services. Under this system, someone of modest income living an environmentally balanced lifestyle would be rewarded by paying little or no taxes. Those guys at the dump, proportionate to the size of their load, probably paid only 20% - 30% more than I paid. (You get one paultry dollar off your fee for recycling and whaterver reduction that makes in the size of your load. After that you get 20% off for wood recovery). It shouldn't work that way. People that flagerantly dump recyclables in the landfill should be stiffly charged to the point where it mostly won't happen. People like me that do a good job should be rewarded with a modest fee. The guys that were dumping the recyclables would have argued that their employer would have been opposed to their taking the time to sort their load. Therefore the fees should be stiff enough that it becomes cheaper for the employer to do the right thing. The same basic principle would apply throughout our industrial and agricultural sectors. When clearcut lumber is taxed to reflect its true cost (including its environmental cost), then it will literally be cheaper to purchase sustainably harvested lumber and to recycle old lumber by disassembling old houses instead of bulldozing them. When commercially grown produce is taxed to reflect the total cost of that kind of factory farming, then it will literaly be cheaper to buy organically grown produce. Can you change the fee structure? Should I send this message to anyone else? Sincerely, Robert Bolman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 28 23:26:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA01528 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02233; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:17:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:13:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA01906 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:13:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA01901 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:13:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA6-p31.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.159]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id XAA27337 for ; Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:19:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34F8E0AE.1E89@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 23:14:38 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Framing Lite (Was "What's In...") References: <199802282057.MAA01634@hevanet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2309 Michael O'Brien wrote: > In a house, the primary job of wall framing is to hold up the structural > loads. These loads bear down vertically on the wall framing such that > members are usually acting like posts or columns. And, for typical loads > (40 lbs. per SF dead load and 10 lbs per SF live load) a two-story house > framed with 2x6's at 16" on center is way overbuilt. (The exception might > be a house in a climate where there's lot's of heavy wet snow on the roof.) I am not opposed to the use of 24" centers where appropriate, my shop is built using 24" centers, it also has trusses 24" o.c. and 2x4 purlins with steel roofing. If on the other hand you are going to recommend 2' centers with a single top plate and 16" centers for the rafters or 2' centers and 1/2" ply or worse yet OSB on the deck, you will have to give me substantial test documentation to convince me. I have seen 1/2" ply on 2' centers and within a very short time it will take on that "wide cord" effect and when it is time to reroof you will most likely have to resheath sooner than when working 16" o.c. I don't like 1/2' sheetrock hung 2'o.c. either, same reason, I have seen some horrible looking walls and especially ceilings done this way. I've seen siding wavy because of this framing system, tongue and groove cove siding will work fine, as on my shop. I guess what I'm saying is that there are times when this can work fine, but it requires shifting more than just the framing centers. What is the total gained insulation in 1500 sq ft ranch and will that offset the other financial and aesthetic losses? My understanding is that the Japanese use a different framing standard and probably also use different finish materials. My friend Margo spent several months working in Japan and could describe the differences better than I. Margo? > A 6x header may be way too big for just the vertical loads that are carried > down and around a window, and yet, the extra two inches of depth isn't > really adding much to the overall rigidity of the structure. As I said in my post, I do use alternative header systems that allow for greater insulation values and reduced thermal breaks. One hundred years ago you could forego headers because you were using solid 1" sheathing and wood lath all of which helped to distribute the loads, even the I have had to repair some failures. > In my opinion, wasteful framing just satisfies someone's insecurities and > makes the building stronger in ways that aren't needed. And THAT'S cheap, > because we do it at the expense of the forests. > > Best, Mike > ______________________________________________________________________ Sorry Mike, I think the issue is a bit more complex than just some insecurities. I have worked on many buildings constructed to your standards and have found them to lack durability, if you ignore the longevity and maintainance costs, then you are cheating the customer as well as the environment. I do agree that saving every bit of our resources that are wasted is our goal, I'm just not convinced that this is the best way to do it. Despite the fact that I am acting exactly like the entrenched, chauvinistic builder you all hate, I am willing to see the light if confronted with real science. Besides this is good practice for you, this is exactly the kind of resistance that has to be overcome. So have at Seth and me, of course Seth may not be happy to find himself in my camp. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 1 12:55:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20983 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:55:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21419; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:47:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:41:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20760 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:41:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20754 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:41:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02459 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:47:48 -0500 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-13-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.13]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA02683 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:47:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980301124649.006ab590@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 12:46:49 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #95 In-Reply-To: <199802280700.CAA27661@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2310 >Subject: Re: GBlist: PAINTING STUDIO FUMES My mother has been a painter for about 35 years. She paints large canvasses -- up to 6' x 10' and typically 3' x 5'. About 10 or 15 years ago she had to give up oil paints, as she was having respiratory and skin reactions -- minor but enough of a warning. (I am concerned about the invisible effects these years of turpentine have had....) It is hard to imagine a ventilation system that any artist could afford to build or run (even with heat recovery) that would overcome the volatility of paint thinner -- turpentine or otherwise. A canvas is a broad evaporation surface that will emit vapors at a prodigious rate, very close to the artist's nose. It is equally hard to imagine the tenuous convective plume produced by our bodies overcoming this. I would suggest that you try tracing the convective currents near your body with a smoke pencil -- I have done this with kids I teach (keeping the smoke away from faces, etc.) -- This convective plume is very weak and very easily disrupted. I am a big fan of displacement ventilation, but I don't think this is the application. It would be interesting to look at industrial ventilation systems that have been designed for factories where a similarly evaporative solvent is used on large surfaces near the worker. I expect the air volumes would be large and the placement, size and shape of exhaust and supply would be critical. I second all those who indicate that you should try to wean the students away from oil paint. The water soluble acrylics also decrease the amount of paint thinner down the sink as well as into the air. I know from my Mom that the acrylics don't have the appeal of oils, though I can't tell you why. Maybe if they don't get started on oil, they'll be happy with acrylics.... By the way, I don't believe that the acrylics aren't comletely benign. My Mom indicates that they irritate here skin and sometimes produce minor respiratory reactions. But maybe she was sensitized by the years of oil? Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montplier VT I can't resist picking up an old thread... My favorite for finding true south is to put a straight stick into the ground very vertical, using a level or plumb bob, going out on a clear night and lining up a second very vertical pole three or four or five feet away so that I can site the North Star along the two. (Site anywhere along the sticks) The line between the two sticks along the ground is a very good north-south line. Has worked for sailors for centuries. The north star can be found by following along the big dipper starting from the end of the handle down to the "bowl" across the bottom and up the last two stars of the bowl part. These last two are the "pointer stars" and point to the North Star, which is maybe ten times as far as the distance between the pointer stars. The farther north you are, the higher the North star is in the sky and the taller yours sticks have to be. Andy Shapiro ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 1 14:36:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23392 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25115; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:28:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:23:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24800 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:23:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24793 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:23:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa3-p55.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.119]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA26772 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 14:30:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34F9B610.3503@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 14:25:04 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Framing Lite Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2311 Kurt wrote: " Now, if we frame out our walls on 24" centers rather than 16" (let alone employ a number of other lumber saving/non-integrity-sacrificing strategies) we can easily cut that 7,700 b.f. by 25% resulting in a 2000 b.f. savings in the construction of the house. " The 25% reduction figure seems way out of line to me, it appears you just took an over all framing count and took one out every four studs out. In real life that is not going to work out at all, corners, windows, doors, etc are going to add back much of that 25%. This total framing figure apparently includes rafters, ceiling and floor joists, as well as wall studs, so I assume you are now advocating 24' o.c. for all framing. What kind of flooring are we going to use on these spans? And what will that add back into the total lumber count? 5/8" rock is an alternative, but what are the costs ( direct and embodied energy). "So - for the walls that aren't straw bale, I'm going to continue to strive for a more perfect lumber efficient stud wall - not so much for the thermal benefits due to increased insulation cavities, but to reduce the ever-increasing stresses on our forest ecosystems." Once again, I am totally in favor of this goal, I simply want to examine the real #'s and cost/benefits calculations. The reason I use the CAD program that I do is largely because I can cut my waste factor and maximize my framing efficiency. The panel shops and manufacturers that use this program have a waste factor around 3%, in construction that is phenominal. So I maybe already doing more to reduces the waste stream than can be accomplished by most crews lightening their framing. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 1 15:15:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA25009 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:15:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27055; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:07:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:03:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26715 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:02:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26703 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 15:02:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA29738; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 12:07:36 -0800 Message-ID: <34F9BF45.86E4CB84@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 12:04:21 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Framing Lite References: <34F9B610.3503@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2312 I would agree with Chuck that the numbers would be less or you result in a fairly complex framing layout with a more random stud layout. There are so many methods of reducing lumber usage. A 2x4 exterior wall is almost a 40% reduction and a better mill yield from logs. The details there would involve an additional layer of exterior foam insulation but this has some benefits - but again more complexity. We've tried a number of approaches some like the above fit into existing code allowances, others have had to be engineered. One of the problems as well is the changes in detailing are not something that can be generally passed to a framing crew without some additional expense. One scenario that I'm looking to more for conventional frame structures is utilizing truss manuf. and prefabricators with wall plans. It opens up the wide range of what on a building site would seem like extreme options (i.e. 1x with clip assemblies, etc). It does it with a certain precision (in-house engineering) and a minimum of waste and cost for the product. It also minimizes site disposal and contamination problems. I first looked at this for a renovation project for someone who was chemically sensitive when I wanted to minimize site dust/noise, etc. There are options and some sureties the question is what is the process for more mainstream usage. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 1 17:21:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA28154 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:21:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA02225; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:13:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:07:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA01867 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:06:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01861 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:06:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sc3.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.196]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA29471 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:12:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34F9DC40.4568@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 17:08:00 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Framing Lite Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2313 John wrote: "what is the process for more mainstream usage." Manufactured housing. Factory built housing, using framing programs like mine and quality engineering is the primary answer. Many people on this list find the notion of buying your house, or at least it's components from a factory, aesthetically repugnant and I understand the basic emotions at work here. The owner builder can even benefit here from engineered and prefabricated components and still have the option of on sight, hands on building. Panel makers buy lumber at such high volume they can maximize quality by sorting through the packs for the straightest, highest quality sticks for long members and lesser quality pieces for short stock(cripples, blocking, etc.). Using volume economics, optimized material utilization and efficient labor practices a good panel shop can put out a truly quality home in a very resource efficient manner. I can hear the grumbling out there, I too have seen some hideous manufactured housing, that is not a fault of the process, it is the fault of poor design and inadequate consumer consciousness. If the techniques I have described are used to build well designed homes with all of the ingredients we keep promoting, then you won't know the difference between the factory built and the owner built, except the factory built will most likely be held to a slightly higher standard. The increased efficiency, cost savings, enhanced engineering will do more for sustainability than a few hundred owner builts over the next decades. As for the aesthetic considerations, the soul of the home has less to do with the assembly of it's parts than it does the aesthetic of it's design and the life lived in it. Panelizing and pre-engineered materials, can actually free up the designer and afford them the opportunity to stretch the horizons, whether the designer be a pro or the homeowner themselves. Given the incredible wealth of materials and systems available to us right now, we can maybe start to truly change the concept of home. Haven't we seen enough raised ranches to last several lifetimes? "Free your mind and your ass will follow." George Clinton Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 1 18:10:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA29273 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:10:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03847; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:02:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:57:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA03511 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:56:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03503 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:56:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.101.31]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA11824; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 23:01:47 +0000 Message-ID: <34F9998D.78E22335@which.net> Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 17:23:26 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: imperatrix@mindspring.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Roof Life Expectancy X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199802280511.AAA32347@camel8.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2314 Sorry, I wish I had not commented now. I know nothing of these kind of weather conditions. I am in the UK and expect at least a hundred years from a roof, although I have seen some replaced after 60 or 70 years. I suppose the hailstones explain the use of rubber, to absorb the blow? Malcolm Scott Sharon Allsup wrote: > May 1995 gave us 5" hailstones (long-suffering sigh from the > insurance agent who said roofs typically get replaced every 5 years > due to weather). Each spring and fall we usually had a couple of > storms with 1" or larger hail, 70+mph winds, the usual. I would love > a roof that would hold up to that for the 20+ years expected in > Virginia. Might help the insurance rates a bit (which were easily 4x > higher for the same valuation). ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 1 18:52:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA00341 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:52:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05379; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:44:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:39:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05003 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:38:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04999 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 18:38:43 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id S~H01530; Sun, 01 Mar 1998 18:42:28 EST To: malcolm.scott@which.net Cc: msheffer@cyberia.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 16:37:20 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Re: White Roofs Message-ID: <19980301.175550.3734.1.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980226143946.006986e4@cyberia.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-8,10-38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2315 IMHO, a product that cost thousands of dollars to purchase and install should last longer than 10 years. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 19:42:55 +0000 malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) writes: >15 years may be a long payback time for something which lasts only 10 >years, but how long do you expect a roof to last? Isn't taking a >longer >term view a part of greenbuilding? >Malcolm Scott > >Marcus Sheffer wrote: > >> On one recent >> commercial project (2200 sqft roof) the extra cost was $900. The >> computer >> simulation of the building showed an annual energy savings of about >> $60 >> (R38 roof insulation, gas heat pumps for cooling). It also did not >> affect >> sizing of the cooling equipment enough to change the size. Payback >> was >> just too long to justify the extra cost. > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 1 20:43:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA03931 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:43:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA09928; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:35:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:29:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA09456 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:28:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA09444 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:28:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.243] (li-ppp46.hevanet.com [204.119.60.243]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18268 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:34:09 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803020134.RAA18268@hevanet.com> Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 17:39:59 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: obrien@hevanet.com (Michael O'Brien) Subject: GBlist: Framing Lite Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2316 Hi, Chuck-- No, I don't suggest using single top plates. Although that can be structurally sound, I think it's a bit over the top, myself ;^). Too wiggly for comfort, too hard to line up the loads over the studs, and it freaks out the code inspectors. As for siding, there are many, many houses in the Northwest with siding on 24" that look fine. Sometimes wavy siding is caused by improper nailing, or nails missing the studs entirely. Another major cause--leaving the back of the siding unfinished, so there's differential wetting and expansion between the front and the back, which causes bowing. If the grain runs the wrong way in thin wood board siding, it will bend and bow easily. Plenty of things to go wrong besides 24" framing, yet 24" seems to get the blame. For straight drywall, you might take a look at Gold Bond's drywall fasteners. The nailing fin has two holes to allow the board to be hung straight even if the corner stud or the ceiling blocking is crooked. In my opinion, crooked walls are mostly caused by the lower quality studs we are getting--lots more juvenile wood, with assorted twists, splits, etc.--we were joking the other day about a bunk of studs that had only four growth rings across the 2x width. There's an OSB available here called "Gold Edge" that's sold by Weyerhaeuser on the basis that the edges don't swell if they get wet, so a lot of builders are using it in subflooring. Can't say how it is for shear strength. I appreciate that you and others are trying to deliver a quality product, but quality framing and efficiency aren't mutually exclusive. And every time I hike through a clearcut, I get upset at lazy framers who take refuge in the excuse that "more is better". Best, Mike >I am not opposed to the use of 24" centers where appropriate, my shop is >built using 24" centers, it also has trusses 24" o.c. and 2x4 purlins >with steel roofing. If on the other hand you are going to recommend 2' >centers with a single top plate and 16" centers for the rafters or 2' >centers and 1/2" ply or worse yet OSB on the deck, you will have to give >me substantial test documentation to convince me. I have seen 1/2" ply >on 2' centers and within a very short time it will take on that "wide >cord" effect and when it is time to reroof you will most likely have to >resheath sooner than when working 16" o.c. I don't like 1/2' sheetrock >hung 2'o.c. either, same reason, I have seen some horrible looking walls >and especially ceilings done this way. I've seen siding wavy because of >this framing system, tongue and groove cove siding will work fine, as on >my shop. I guess what I'm saying is that there are times when this can >work fine, but it requires shifting more than just the framing centers. >What is the total gained insulation in 1500 sq ft ranch and will that >offset the other financial and aesthetic losses? > >My understanding is that the Japanese use a different framing standard >and probably also use different finish materials. My friend Margo spent >several months working in Japan and could describe the differences >better than I. Margo? > > >> A 6x header may be way too big for just the vertical loads that are carried >> down and around a window, and yet, the extra two inches of depth isn't >> really adding much to the overall rigidity of the structure. > > >As I said in my post, I do use alternative header systems that allow for >greater insulation values and reduced thermal breaks. One hundred years >ago you could forego headers because you were using solid 1" sheathing >and wood lath all of which helped to distribute the loads, even the I >have had to repair some failures. > > > >> In my opinion, wasteful framing just satisfies someone's insecurities and >> makes the building stronger in ways that aren't needed. And THAT'S cheap, >> because we do it at the expense of the forests. >> >> Best, Mike > >> ______________________________________________________________________ >Sorry Mike, I think the issue is a bit more complex than just some >insecurities. I have worked on many buildings constructed to your >standards and have found them to lack durability, if you ignore the >longevity and maintainance costs, then you are cheating the customer as >well as the environment. I do agree that saving every bit of our >resources that are wasted is our goal, I'm just not convinced that this >is the best way to do it. > >Despite the fact that I am acting exactly like the entrenched, >chauvinistic builder you all hate, I am willing to see the light if >confronted with real science. Besides this is good practice for you, >this is exactly the kind of resistance that has to be overcome. So have >at Seth and me, of course Seth may not be happy to find himself in my >camp. > >Chuck >_________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 1 20:53:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA04158 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:53:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA10641; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:45:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:40:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10089 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:39:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10081 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:39:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.3] (blf3.acadia.net [205.217.217.3]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA20994 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:46:00 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:46:46 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Alternatives to PVC Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2317 Dear Curt, That's a big question you're asking! Here are a few pieces of the puzzle: For water delivery, we've had good luck with "pex" piping, as manufactured by Wirsbo and others. It's a polyethylene tubing, and as far as plastics go, polyethylene is more benign than PVC. For waste drainage and venting, we try to get the plumbers to use ABS instead of PVC, but here in Maine it's hard to obtain and more expensive. My understanding is that ABS is a little less horrific than PVC - does anyone else know for sure? For footing drains, here in Maine we're able to buy perforated drain pipe made of recycled polyethylene instead of PVC. It's something I noticed one day at the lumber yard: streaky-looking stuff instead of normal white PVC. Don't know who makes it - I just know I can buy it here, so I do. Ask your lumberyard. Good luck. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 1 20:54:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA04181 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:54:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA10718; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:41:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10127 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:40:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10088 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:39:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.3] (blf3.acadia.net [205.217.217.3]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA21002 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:46:08 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Mar 1998 20:46:54 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Framing Lite Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2318 Re: some current discussion on framing light: Both the American Plywood Association and the Wood Products Laboratory at the University of Wisconsin-Madison have done good work on optimal value engineering of wood framing. I don't know if they have web pages, but they publish some good booklets. The incremental cost and incremental wood consumption of sturdy framing, in light of the durability and performance of the structure over its life, seem to me to argue for building for the long term. After all, if you get junky melamine bookshelves put together with staples, you can easily upgrade later. But the fundamental structure of a building, so hard to go into and repair later, ought to last at least 200 years, or why are we bothering? A styrofoam hamburger container is designed to have a useful life of about five minutes. In other words, it's instant trash. Building structures which fall apart after 20 or 30 years is close to the same mentality, and obscene. If we could convince people to live and work in smaller spaces, perhaps we could afford to build them well. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 01:10:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA10902 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:10:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA20777; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 01:01:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:56:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA20464 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:55:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA20456 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 00:55:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust181.tnt7.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.20.181]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA14965 for ; Sun, 1 Mar 1998 22:01:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34FA4BB1.2F67@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 01 Mar 1998 22:03:29 -0800 From: David Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Framing Lite Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2319 Since we're on the subject... This weekend the Alameda County Waste Management Authority put together a little conference "Tools for Building Green". It was a bit basic, but they brought in many officials from cities around the area, as well as a few larger contractors. And, yes, there was a panel discussion on lite framing. I saw results from a NAHB study of three residential projects framed with "smart framing". The #1 material saving was to increase joist spacing, seconded by stud spacing. The different houses varied somewhat, but each contributed in the range of 7%- 10% reductions. After that, the 2-stud corners, single plating, etc contributed minor amounts. 25% is the maximum one might acheive, but this is not easy to attain. 10% is a more realistic in-the-field result. On another vein, someone just mentioned something about "...the lazy framers..." and clear cuts. Please, this is exactly the divisive name-calling that prevents us from reaching solutions. My original query on this subject a few days ago was asking for any esteemed engineers if they could explain the weaknesses or advantages of the different systems. They are the ones who set the standards. I didn't think this had to do with laziness, but the integrity and value of our products. Yes? Seth Melchert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 03:09:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA13670 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:09:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA23455; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 03:01:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 02:55:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA23183 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 02:55:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from power.connexus.net.au (root@power.connexus.net.au [203.12.22.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA23179 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 02:55:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from dialin-a2-09.Melbourne.interNex.net.au (dialin-a2-09.Melbourne.interNex.net.au [203.34.169.209]) by power.connexus.net.au (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA22597 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:01:24 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980302185534.361f75e8@connexus.apana.org.au> X-Sender: lcollins@connexus.apana.org.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 18:55:34 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Lance Collins Subject: Re: GBlist: Roof Life Expectancy In-Reply-To: <199802280511.AAA32347@camel8.mindspring.com> References: <199802272133.QAA07549@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2320 At 00:12 28/2/98 +0000, you wrote: > >> 15 years may be a long payback time for something which lasts only 10 >> years, but how long do you expect a roof to last? Isn't taking a longer >> term view a part of greenbuilding? > >Yes, but .... the lifetime of the roof is going to vary depending >upon where you are and the local conditions, etc etc (just like >everything else, it seems). > My mind boggles when I read of roofs lasting only a few years. We had to have our roof re-tiled five years ago when the original terra-cotta tiles became too brittle and the repair man was breaking as many as he replaced. The house was built in 1927. We bought it in 1969 and only about 20 tiles needed replacing since then until the total re-tiling. We had an extension in 1975 and no-one has touched the extension roof since then. BUT never in my life have I seen hailstones as big as 1/2" or experienced wind speeds over 60 mph or seen any snow in the neighourhood. I would expect a steel roof in this area to last at least 40 years before it rusted out. Lance Collins Melbourne, Australia. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 06:59:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA19486 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA27951; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:50:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:45:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA27596 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:44:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA27589 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:44:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.201.24] (usr2a24.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.24]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA26238; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:50:24 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34FA4BB1.2F67@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:54:55 -0500 To: dmelchert@earthlink.net From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Framing Lite Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2321 At 10:03 PM -0800 3/1/98, David Seth Melchert wrote: >I saw results from a NAHB study of three residential projects framed >with "smart framing". The #1 material saving was to increase joist >spacing, seconded by stud spacing. The different houses varied somewhat, >but each contributed in the range of 7%- 10% reductions. After that, the >2-stud corners, single plating, etc contributed minor amounts. 25% is >the maximum one might acheive, but this is not easy to attain. 10% is a >more realistic in-the-field result. Thanks for sharing this data. I just thought I'd note that the 2-stud corners and single plates, while not very significant in terms of wood savings, are still important, at least in cold climates. Corners and wall-to-roof junctions tend to be uninsulated or poorly insulated, creating cold spots that breed condensation, mold, ghost-marks, etc. Using less framing and more insulation in these places helps. Nadav Malin Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 08:08:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA21152 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:08:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA29623; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:54:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA29084 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:54:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA29073 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:53:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA14283 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:59:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-47.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.175) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma014276; Mon Mar 2 06:59:13 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980302075814.0070b7c0@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 07:58:16 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Energy Northwest 98 (corr.) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2322 Energy Northwest 1998 Conference (correction) -------------------------------------------------- A recent conference announcement contained an incorrect e-mail address in contact information. The corrected conference info is now available at the EEBA web site: then, scroll down to the April events. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Notice: on this list, >first< inform EBN of your new events for listings, -- EBN Event-mail -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ...... then consider forwarding your conference information to EEBA ........ EEBA "events" -- new energy efficiency, solar and green-building events listings, and correction information may be forwarded to --EEBA Events-- Contact: Bion Howard @ EEBA Mid-Atlantic Office (410) 867-8000 9-6 EST | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 08:36:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA21939 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:36:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00920; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:28:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:22:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00448 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:22:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.39]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00440 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:21:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 5FEDa26839; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:24:50 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:24:50 EST To: lcollins@connexus.apana.org.au Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, Faythwrite@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Roof Life Expectancy Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2323 In a message dated 98-03-02 03:04:04 EST,Lance Collins writes: << BUT never in my life have I seen hailstones as big as 1/2" or experienced wind speeds over 60 mph or seen any snow in the neighourhood. I would expect a steel roof in this area to last at least 40 years before it rusted out. >> There's been a number of posts regarding roofs, durability, radiation, etc. One product I've familiar with is a 50% recycled content roofing sheet called Ondura. It has a limited lifetime warranty, withstands snow loads up to 55lbs per sq.ft. and winds in excess of 100 mph. It is supposed to outlast tin roofs (no rusting out) and can be placed over existing roofs so no tear-offs. It comes in a variety of colors including white and tan. I haven't tried the web site but it should be www.ondura.com. I tried it but the web is down at the moment. Phone is 800-777-7663. Not sure if EBN has done a product review or not. Alex/Nadav? For Lance, not sure if it's available in Australia yet. Phil Bailey ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 08:43:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA22127 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:43:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01460; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:35:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:29:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00974 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:28:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.36]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00961 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:28:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4NFa014620 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:34:34 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:34:34 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: energy stats Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2324 I remember reading that residential housing was responsible for the largest portion of electrical use in the U.S. Does anyone have that info handy and a source for it? Thanks very much. Phil Bailey ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 08:57:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA22534 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:57:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01973; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:49:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:44:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01648 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:43:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01642 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA110096; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:47:42 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 06:47:41 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Nadav Malin Cc: dmelchert@earthlink.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: western vs balloon framing using eco-studs In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2325 Nadav: In our own home we used single top plates ontop of our 13" "Eco-studs" for the reasons mentionedin your message of below, since all roof and floor (space) joists are co-linear with our studs at 24"o/c (even if our inner structural member of the "Eco-stud" is a 2x4). I realize this is not to code, but that does not matter. [In fact, all our studs on the main floor are utility and construction grade (including built-up posts and lintels), also against code. We have also used these prefabicated wall trusses (using minimum wood members + left-over cross-member pieces) for 1.5 stories and 2 full stories (2x6 inner studs), so that the notorious floor trimmer/wall detail is far more airtight and far better insulated than in standard western framing details. Walls went up real fast in 2 recent projects in BC (fall) and Ontario (winter). Balloon framing has certain merits. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 09:02:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22732 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:02:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02273; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:54:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:48:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01854 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:48:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01844 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:48:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sd21.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.246]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA13226 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:54:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34FAB8EB.16CC@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 08:49:31 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Framing Lite References: <34FA4BB1.2F67@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2326 David Seth Melchert wrote: > > Since we're on the subject... > > This weekend the Alameda County Waste Management Authority put together > a little conference "Tools for Building Green". It was a bit basic, but > they brought in many officials from cities around the area, as well as a > few larger contractors. And, yes, there was a panel discussion on lite > framing. > > I saw results from a NAHB study of three residential projects framed > with "smart framing". The #1 material saving was to increase joist > spacing, seconded by stud spacing. The different houses varied somewhat, > but each contributed in the range of 7%- 10% reductions. After that, the > 2-stud corners, single plating, etc contributed minor amounts. 25% is > the maximum one might acheive, but this is not easy to attain. 10% is a > more realistic in-the-field result. Seth, Did you come away with a more certain picture of the reliabilty of these lite framing solutions? Did you garner any documentation that would be useful to the discussion? Anything online you can point to? Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 09:22:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23329 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:22:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03218; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:13:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:08:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02744 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:07:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02740 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:07:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA110240; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:10:04 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 07:10:03 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Pbsustain Cc: lcollins@connexus.apana.org.au, greenbuilding@crest.org, Faythwrite@aol.com Subject: GBlist: Ondura Roofing In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2327 You said:"One product I've familiar with is a 50% recycled content roofing sheet called Ondura. It has a limited lifetime warranty, withstands snow loads up to 55lbs per sq.ft. and winds in excess of 100 mph. It is supposed to outlast tin roofs (no rusting out) and can be placed over existing roofs so no tear-offs." Phil: Do you know what constitutes the recycled part, and what are the actual environmental benefits of this roofing system? I am also looking at this material for a project and have reviewed the specs and sample materials. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 09:53:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA24162 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:53:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05298; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:44:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:40:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA04626 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:39:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04615 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:39:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA01582 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:44:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-51.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.179) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma001531; Mon Mar 2 08:44:12 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980302094135.0070dc14@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 09:43:15 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Reflective roofing properties Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2328 Reflective roofing properties Nadav / list: I have not seen the test data on the reflectance of "white EPDM roofing" verifying a 75% albedo (reflectance across the solar spectrum including uv-through high-IR) and this seems pretty high. In some of the literature, reflectance is stated with roofing emittance values, which would be useful in calculating the re-radiation possibilities of the roof. A reflective (higher albedo) roof that also had high emittance (good for night sky cooling in some climates) would be a useful combination if its properties were persistent. In fact, one could "design" sets of roofing solar and IR properties (albedo and emittance) for specific climates, and provide these to roofing suppliers. A serious consideration -- how do these properties age with time? Does the albedo or reflectance (visible portion typically) and the emittance change over time. If weathering took the albedo from 75% to 56% (a figure in "Cooling our Communities" I recall cited for reflective surfaces) then the actual solar gains via the roofing section of the building would rise over time (increase to AC load, reduction to Htg load) causing different actual energy use versus design predictions. This aged value is what I would need to accurately model the overall impact of a roof covering selection versus other efficiency options. I have not seen any good test data (it may be out there, like at ORNL) on this issue. Since the average roof may be installed and maintained for 15- to 20 years, this aging becomes an important long term factor in predicting energy use. Another issue with reflective surfaces. In urban areas the very light colored roof of one building might potentially amplify solar radiation loads upon surfaces of adjacent buildings. One case: a taller glass curtain wall building situated North (in the northern Hemisphere) of a low-rise building -- say a warehouse, school or factory -- with a reflective roof, could be subject to glare and visual discomfort and possible elevated cooling loads. At least a possible nuisance; at worst a nightmare. Anyone with test data or rela world experience with energy use reductions in buildings with reflective roofing is encouraged to contact me. ------------ you wrote -------- >For residential roofs, here is the data from FSEC that we reported on in >EBN back in September 1993: > >White EPDM roofing reflects 75% solar radiation >White elastomeric coating reflects 70% solar radiation >White asphalt shingles reflect 25% solar radiation >Gray asphalt shingles reflect 20% solar radiation >Black asphalt shingles reflect 5% solar radiation >Black EPDM roofing reflects 5% solar radiation > >So, white shingles are better than black ones, but not nearly as good as >white EPDM. > >Nadav >Environmental Building News > | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 10:01:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24379 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:01:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05875; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:53:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:48:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05530 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:48:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05523 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.79]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 2164800 ; Mon, 02 Mar 1998 09:51:42 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980302094621.0069ebf0@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 09:46:21 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: White Roofs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2329 Malcolm Scott wrote: >15 years may be a long payback time for something which lasts only 10 >years, but how long do you expect a roof to last? Isn't taking a longer >term view a part of greenbuilding? > Agreed. Except that client was not willing to accept a 6% rate of return and the white roofing material was a special order that would have delayed the re-roofing by several weeks. I don't ususally make the decisions, I just present the facts as I know them. This measue was packaged with many others and the overall payback was less than 3 years. I think the wait for the material was the larger problem. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 10:10:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25356 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:10:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07023; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:02:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:57:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06220 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:56:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06202 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:56:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA56082; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:01:35 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:01:35 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "David M. Foley" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: durability/framing for 200 years In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2330 You said: " But the fundamental structure of a building, so hard to go into and repair later, ought to last at least 200 years..." David: Beside ourselves and yourself (and other listserve members, I hope?) who else is designing/building for 200 years in North America? I believe durability is a hallmark of sustainability. It s easy to justify increased incremental costs to offset 2 additional future houses (@ the standard 60-70 year life cycle). _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 10:32:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25977 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:32:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08287; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:23:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:19:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07713 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:18:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07709 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:18:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28287 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:24:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:24:59 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Framing Lite To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199803021439.JAA04693@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2331 Housing can be engineered to use less wood and be stronger and far more durable and EQ resistant than standard practise. This is a fact, and 24" o.c. studs/joists etc are simple steps in that direction. For example, EQ resistance has absolutley nothing to do with 6x8 headers over patio doors. 2x6 on 24" can withstand several times the loads thely will ever see, and the floor joist will have deflected so much at his stage that the drywall will have fallen off. I relaize that some people would prefer the 1967 chevy version of houses -- good curb appeal, hugely wasteful of resources, over designed, occupant unfirendly. But the biggest assest we have in reducing resource and energy consumption while maintaining our "expected" standard of living is our brains. Houses can be designed! The comments made about manufactured housing are bang on -- I see the waste bins at these plants and they are nothingcompared to those on Job sites. Also, modular homes need to strong enough to be lifted off the trailer and onto the foundation by a crane; this requires a lot of strength. Any structural house failures I have seen have been failures of joints, not members. That 6x8header will not fail, but the nailed joint will allow the header to fall out. Winds and EQ resistant design is all about proper connections, distributing loads, and reducing the concentration of loads at stiff elements, not about making a structure "stronger". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 11:12:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA27229 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:12:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10653; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:03:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:59:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10275 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:58:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10261 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:58:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust44.tnt11.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.31.44]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA25481 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:04:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34FAD935.75E5@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 08:07:17 -0800 From: David Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: framing Lite Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2332 I should modify my post from last night, written with a fuzzy mind. The NAHB study identified _three_ most important items: the joist spacing, stud framing, as I mentioned, AND reducing waste factors (I presume this means not using 4x12's for every header whether needed or not, reusing cut-offs for blocking, etc.) Seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 12:57:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01856 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:57:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15667; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:49:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:42:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14997 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:42:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheetah.pacinfo.com (root@cheetah.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14990 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:42:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (p13.s2.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.195]) by cheetah.pacinfo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA30030 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:48:34 -0800 Message-ID: X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Clan Handley" Subject: GBlist: Ondura Date: Mon, 02 Mar 98 09:46:18 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2333 www.ondura.com is not accessible. There is some info at the following url http://www.triangle-lumber.com/prod/feature/ondura/index.shtml Barbara Handley Eugene, Oregon www.pacinfo.com/~handley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 12:58:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01908 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:58:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15907; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:50:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:45:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15172 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:45:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15158 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:44:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MrD15480; Mon, 02 Mar 1998 12:49:31 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:40:58 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Framing Message-ID: <19980302.125019.6622.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,5-6,10-17 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2334 Dear GB listers, I have been following with interest the discussions of steel vs wood and 16"o.c. vs 24"o.c. So far, understandably, these discussions have focused on exterior walls. My question is -what would be the most efficient for interior framing. As a designer, should I be specifying steel studs or not. Is 16" o.c. overbuilt for interiors as well, particularly non load-bearing walls. Is there any difference whether the job is residential or commercial. Please advise. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 13:00:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01945 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:00:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16016; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:51:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:47:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15327 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:46:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheetah.pacinfo.com (root@cheetah.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15303 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:46:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (p13.s2.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.195]) by cheetah.pacinfo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA30166 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 09:52:50 -0800 Message-ID: Read-Receipt-To: "Clan Handley" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Clan Handley" Subject: GBlist: Ondura Date: Mon, 02 Mar 98 09:50:33 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2335 Apparently the stuff used to be called Nuline. It appears to be made of bitumen in recycled paper. Barbara Handley Eugene, Oregon http://www.pacinfo.com/~handley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 13:06:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA02150 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:06:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16501; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:57:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:53:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16102 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:52:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16087 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:52:23 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id M~D04138; Mon, 02 Mar 1998 12:52:41 EST To: lcollins@connexus.apana.org.au Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:53:53 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Roof Life Expectancy Message-ID: <19980302.120606.3638.3.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <199802272133.QAA07549@solstice.crest.org> <3.0.1.16.19980302185534.361f75e8@connexus.apana.org.au> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,7-8,11-19,21-61 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2336 It just seems to me that a quality building product should last a lifetime. The county road to my home has several ranch homes (3) built in the last century. Most of them have the original metal roof installed when the home was built. I don't know for certain but I can imagine they have required repairs. The point is the original roof material is still in place. Builders in our region seem to expect us to accept that composite shingle roof material should be replaced every ten years due to weather conditions. Something about that makes no sense to me. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Mon, 02 Mar 1998 18:55:34 Lance Collins writes: >At 00:12 28/2/98 +0000, you wrote: >> >>> 15 years may be a long payback time for something which lasts only >10 >>> years, but how long do you expect a roof to last? Isn't taking a >longer >>> term view a part of greenbuilding? >> >>Yes, but .... the lifetime of the roof is going to vary depending >>upon where you are and the local conditions, etc etc (just like >>everything else, it seems). >> >My mind boggles when I read of roofs lasting only a few years. We had >to >have our roof re-tiled five years ago when the original terra-cotta >tiles >became too brittle and the repair man was breaking as many as he >replaced. >The house was built in 1927. We bought it in 1969 and only about 20 >tiles >needed replacing since then until the total re-tiling. We had an >extension >in 1975 and no-one has touched the extension roof since then. BUT >never >in my life have I seen hailstones as big as 1/2" or experienced wind >speeds >over 60 mph or seen any snow in the neighourhood. I would expect a >steel >roof in this area to last at least 40 years before it rusted out. > >Lance Collins >Melbourne, Australia. > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 13:31:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA02877 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:30:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18019; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:22:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:18:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17448 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:17:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17438 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:17:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA1-a10.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.139]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA18084 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:23:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34FAF7E9.2585@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 13:18:17 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Roof Life Expectancy References: <199802272133.QAA07549@solstice.crest.org> <3.0.1.16.19980302185534.361f75e8@connexus.apana.org.au> <19980302.120606.3638.3.sbtauto@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2337 sbtauto@juno.com wrote: > > It just seems to me that a quality building product should last a > lifetime. > > The county road to my home has several ranch homes (3) built in the last > century. Most of them have the original metal roof installed when the > home was built. I don't know for certain but I can imagine they have > required repairs. The point is the original roof material is still in > place. > > Builders in our region seem to expect us to accept that composite shingle > roof material should be replaced every ten years due to weather > conditions. Something about that makes no sense to me. > One of my favorites is still standing seam, either terne ,copper or galv. steel, but I must admit I have done no research into the embodied energy considerations of the three. For longevity and low maintenance they are hard to beat and as a design element they can be very appealing. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 13:47:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03386 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:47:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19430; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:39:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:34:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18702 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:34:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18698 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:34:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (gl-ppp03.hevanet.com [204.119.60.23]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25319; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 10:40:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34FAFCB1.F27B3B9B@hevanet.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 10:38:44 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dmelchert@earthlink.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Framing Lite References: <34FA4BB1.2F67@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2338 Hi, Seth-- To clarify, I didn't mean to cast aspersions on anyone on the greenbuilding list with that reference to lazy framers...anyone who swings a hammer all day can't be described as lazy, strictly speaking. And there are many intelligent framers who do understand their structures. Next time I walk through a clearcut, I'll try to think of a better description! Best, Mike David Seth Melchert wrote: > (snip) > > On another vein, someone just mentioned something about "...the lazy > framers..." and clear cuts. Please, this is exactly the divisive > name-calling that prevents us from reaching solutions. My original query > on this subject a few days ago was asking for any esteemed engineers if > they could explain the weaknesses or advantages of the different > systems. They are the ones who set the standards. I didn't think this > had to do with laziness, but the integrity and value of our products. > Yes? > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 13:47:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03400 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:47:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19488; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:39:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:35:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18765 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:35:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from november.diac.com (root@diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18742 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:35:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.64.42.80] (p80.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.80]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA13329 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:40:17 GMT Message-Id: <199803021840.SAA13329@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: re: Framing Lite Date: Mon, 2 Mar 98 11:41:12 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2339 I agree with Mike's comment that quality framing and efficient use of materials are not mutually exclusive. More is not better. And as Nadav said, minimizing the framing members creates the opportunity to maximize insulation. The next series of houses I'm doing is budgeted at $150/SF; we will use portions of Optimal Value Engineering in the framing plan, and the architect, engineer, owner, and myself certainly do not consider these homes to be of low quality, or associated with tract housing! For a good introduction to the reasons for "framing lite", read the Builders Guide to Cold Climates ("We use wood inefficiently. We put too much of it in our buildings in the wrong places and in the wrong ways." Etc.) OVE is a term coined, I think, by the NAHB in a book (subsequently upgraded) first printed way back in November 1977 ("Reducing Home Building Costs With Optimum Value Engineered Design and Construction"). The principles are well documented, and many are gradually becoming standard framing practice. I agree that it is a real problem getting framing crews to use these methods; things change slowly in the construction industry. In theory, we can build a house exactly the way we think it should be done, but in practice, its a complex compromise between all the parties involved; in the case of OVE, the biggest hurdle may be the framing subs. I believe houses (key distinction: those built since the enforcement of modern building codes) rarely fail because of undersized or underspanned framing materials. (The biggest reason is probably moisture). Think of the last time you saw a stud wall break in half ... the weak link in stick framing is not size or spans, its in the connections between the members. Earthquakes vibrate houses off foundations, hurricanes blow roofs off the walls, etc. This weakness tends to be overcome by using lots of pieces, while the strategic solution would be to evaluate the various stresses and compensate with major atttention given to the connections, smart design, quality detailing, and engineered products. Someone suggested "framing lite" might save 10% of materials; this seems like a reasonable average. But a couple years ago I posted to this List comments on house construction I witnessed while in Australia. I guessed (I certainly don't know), that the Aussie stick framed house used ONE HALF the framing material as the same thing built in the States. Including all forms of wood, the figure might be 1/4 or even less (wood siding is uncommon). How? (Comments from those who live there are welcome). What I saw was all framing members were the metric equivelent of 2 x 4's - no dimensional lumber. They were either used as is or made into ladder trusses - headers, joists, rafters, etc. Furthermore (I thought this was really cool), they used a slightly different size 2 x 4 for exterior wall studs than for interior walls. In areas that don't have vast forests and a very recent history of human occupation (like the entire rest of the world outside the US and Canada), this type of construction is totally common. In summary, I am very much in the dark as to the best framing methods, and will still be trying to figure it out for years to come. But clearly the way it has been done is unneccessary and wasteful. And in my mind, the efficient use of materials is a major component of Quality. Buzz Burrell Bolder Building Boulder, CO PS: I've been off the GreenBuilding List for a long time, due to work load and evening Tango lessons; congratulations to all those who are able to keep up with the overwhleming volume and velocity of this List! Thanks for all the great info. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 13:48:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03422 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:48:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19550; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:39:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:35:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18771 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:35:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from november.diac.com (root@diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18753 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.64.42.80] (p80.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.80]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA13332 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:40:19 GMT Message-Id: <199803021840.SAA13332@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: re: Flat Roofs Date: Mon, 2 Mar 98 11:41:14 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2340 Something I don't recall being mentioned (although I might have missed it) is Urethane Foam for flat roofs. Works well on new or old roofs, existing surface hardly matters. It seems you can spray it right on built ups, bitumin, plywood, dirty socks, etc. The foam flows into every nook and cranny, thus waterproofing difficult situations, and best of all, its about R-7 per inch, thus accomplishing two goals at once. The Urethane is then covered with Elastomeric paint, which protects it from UV and minor disturbances. It comes in different densities depending on if you need to walk on it. Oftentimes it is covered with pea gravel for hail resistance. The drawbacks are equally impressive - *This isn't exactly a 100% natural product *It doesn't last forever *It looks like s..t *It doesn't stand high impact or weight (are those hailstones someone described a Texas Tall Tale?!) *Anything poorly masked is now permenatly foamed (actually this is a good attribute) For the contractor though, its great - Day 1: Call Foam Guy. Day 2: Foam Guy sprays (contractor remains at safe distance, like next county). Day 3 (or even same day): Foam Guy sprays paint, roof is now complete (except for gravel). I used it a couple years ago, and noticed that my Foam Guy was spraying the RMI (Rocky Mountain Institute) roof later that same week. I think they had an EPDM that failed. I also used it on a dry stacked Earth Block house; the foam is so sticky we didn't need motar. Take Care! Buzz Burrell Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 14:35:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA05896 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:35:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23227; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:26:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:22:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22719 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:22:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22710 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:22:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA88386; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:25:27 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:25:27 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Buzz Burrell Cc: GreenBuilding List Subject: Re: GBlist: re: Flat Roofs In-Reply-To: <199803021840.SAA13332@november.diac.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2341 re: "Something I don't recall being mentioned (although I might have missed it) is Urethane Foam for flat roofs. Works well on new or old roofs, existing surface hardly matters.It seems you can spray it right on built ups, bitumin, plywood, dirty socks, etc. The foam flows into every nook and cranny, thus waterproofing difficult situations, and best of all, its about R-7 per inch, thus accomplishing two goals at once. The Urethane is then covered with Elastomeric paint, which protects it from UV and minor disturbances." _____________________________________________________________________________ Buzz: Further to the above, we used spray-on polyurethane many years ago on an existing hyperbolic paraboloid roof over an institutional building. Far better than the initial proposals for built-up wood members with fiberglass insulation inbetween. I do not remember the venting details, since this material would constitute an excellent vapour (and air) barrier. Also, it would be rather wasteful at any roof overhangs, since its height would probably need to be maintained, but its insulation value would not. Probably good against ice damming too. ______________________________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 16:25:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA10012 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:25:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29713; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:16:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:11:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA29154 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:11:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29149 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from usr0a46.wrj.sover.net (usr0a46.wrj.sover.net [206.25.69.236]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA11088; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:17:19 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: pike.sover.net: usr0a46.wrj.sover.net [206.25.69.236] didn't use HELO protocol Message-ID: <34FAB2C0.31EE@sover.net> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 05:23:20 -0800 From: Andrea Warchaizer Reply-To: springpt@sover.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: "David M. Foley" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: durability/framing for 200 years References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2342 Jorg et al, Most of my timber framing pals would say they are building 200-400 year structures, and attempt to usefully "disentangle" mechanical and other systems which will have a shorter life span. In the case of a well-designed timber framed structure, I believe that more elusive factors(such as "beauty" or "spirit") in addition to structural integrity can contribute to building longevity. In other words, if you love it and it can be easily modified, it will last longer. Of course, you still have to build it right so it doesn't fall down, rot, etc. Andrea Warchaizer Springpoint Design Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > You said: " But the fundamental structure of a building, so hard to go > into and repair later, ought to last at least 200 years..." > > David: Beside ourselves and yourself (and other listserve members, I hope?) who > else is designing/building for 200 years in North America? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 17:41:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA12541 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:41:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05496; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:33:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:28:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04870 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:28:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from austin.aus.sig.net (austin.sig.net [199.1.78.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04864 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:28:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.195.85.146] (server.ail.org [192.195.85.146] (may be forged)) by austin.aus.sig.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA12285 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:33:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from [100.100.100.6] by [192.195.85.146] via smtpd (for [199.1.78.2]) with SMTP; 2 Mar 1998 22:31:07 UT Date: 02 Mar 98 16:28:35 -0600 From: Matthew DeWolfe Subject: GBlist: State of GB in TX To: "GB Disc. Group" Message-ID: <980302.162835@ail.org> X-Mailer: QM-Internet Gateway 1.0.1 X-Priority: 4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id RAA04865 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2343 GBListers: as a precursor to my current position I compiled a GB manual for the state of TX, using some of the current GB wall systems (SIPs and thick-wall products like Faswall, etc), and using climatological data I placed them appropriately in seven climatic regions of texas...a shortened form of this is soon to be available at a website, but the manual is more complete...write me if interested, there are two manuals enclosed and a video for $25... ps...your right about the rest of texas lagging behind...hopefully this will change soon Matthew Carl DeWolfe dewolfe@ail.org American Institute for Learning Texas YouthWorks Technical Assistance Specialist 204 E. 4th St., Austin, TX 78701 (512) 472 3395 x44 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 19:26:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA16481 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:26:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10258; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:17:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:13:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA09827 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:12:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09823 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:12:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA169082; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:17:08 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:17:08 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Andrea Warchaizer Cc: "David M. Foley" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: durability/framing for 200 years In-Reply-To: <34FAB2C0.31EE@sover.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2344 Andrea: I agree that timber frame buildings have this virtue.Do you mention this fact with clients? Is this aspect marketable? Do owners of TF homes have longer tenure in their homes, than the average house? Jorg ostrowski _____________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Andrea Warchaizer wrote: > Jorg et al, > Most of my timber framing pals would say they are building 200-400 year > structures, and attempt to usefully "disentangle" mechanical and other > systems which will have a shorter life span. In the case of a > well-designed timber framed structure, I believe that more elusive > factors(such as "beauty" or "spirit") in addition to structural > integrity can contribute to building longevity. In other words, if you > love it and it can be easily modified, it will last longer. Of course, > you still have to build it right so it doesn't fall down, rot, etc. > > Andrea Warchaizer > Springpoint Design > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > > You said: " But the fundamental structure of a building, so hard to go > > into and repair later, ought to last at least 200 years..." > > > > David: Beside ourselves and yourself (and other listserve members, I hope?) who > > else is designing/building for 200 years in North America? > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 20:00:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA17523 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:00:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12138; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:52:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:47:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11708 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:47:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11704 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:47:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.213] (ka2-72.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.72]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id TAA21951 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:53:57 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <666.286T2674T6674574@awinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 19:39:31 -0500 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Subject: GBlist: Re: substitute for pressure treated wood/EPS Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAA11705 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2345 Sgrìobh Jorg D. Ostrowski: >Bob: To answer your 2 questions, instead of PT wood, we treat our wood with >"Lifetime Treatment" (non toxic and environmentally-sound). It comes as a >small >dry pellet in a bag and water is added on-site. It can be used below >ground and >in contact with plants. We have no long term results yet, but based on daily >viewing to check performance and wear, we are satisfied. Also, just for everyone's information, there's an interesting article about arsenic poisoning, current pressure-treated wood, and *far* more healthy alternatives. It's in the latest issue of _This Old House_, which generally doesn't pay much attention to environment stuff. At least they did this one, though. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 20:12:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA17889 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:12:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12769; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:00:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12484 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:00:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12480 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:00:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5.carleton.ca [134.117.136.25]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v2.02) with ESMTP id UAA13764; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:06:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id UAA24771; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:06:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:06:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803030106.UAA24771@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: Framing Lite Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2346 on Fri 27 Feb 1998 David Seth Melchert wrote: > high-efficiency framing...equate with cheap > a dramitic increase in the engineering rigor of house > frames.... 6x8 headers for a 6' patio door opening > ...Single plates and 24" framing make a flimsy wall... > surfaces wiggle in and out Hello David and Stick-FrameHeads; If "6x8" headers for six foot openings constitute a "dramatic increase in engineering rigour" then I shudder to think what existed prior to the Rigour Revolution. In the above header example, if the header were a 4x10 instead of a 6x8, there would be: (i) a 15% reduction in volume of lumber consumed (ii) an 8.6 % increase in lateral bending resistance (iii) a 125 % increase in insulation value (replacing 1.5" of wood with XPS) (iv) plus labour savings in having one less lamination to schlep, cut and nail-up (if built-up) If the header were designed as a plywood web beam (ie a box beam) there could be even further increases in strength and lumber reduction. * As to 24" in-line framing being "flimsy" and "wiggly-surfaced". A single 2x6 top plate is almost 24% stronger than a doubled 2x4 top plate WRT moment resistance (laterally). Moment resistance WRT vertical loads would not be an issue if in-line framing is used. In most climates, it's beneficial to have more interior thermal mass so the problem of wiggly wall surfaces would seem to be best overcome by using thicker drywall (or multiple layers or drywall) rather than by displacing insulation with lumber. To provide 16" centres for ceiling drywall, it would seem to make more sense to use 2x2 furring @16" o/c on the underside of a continuous poly sheet VDR on the u/s of the bootom chord (if in a heating climate) (and create a wiring chase to boot) rather than have entire trusses or rafters at 16" o/c. * That being said, the above is small potatoes. I think that the problems with current stick-frame technology go far deeper than mere selection of lumber dimensions and centres. As wooden I-sections illustrate, solid lumber members consume approx 40% more lumber (based on 2x10) than is necessary. There's no reason I-sections (using thin masonite webs) couldn't be used for studs as well in addition to wooden I sections or parallel chord trusses for joists and rafters. In the case of walls, besides using less lumber... thicker, straighter, stiffer, better insulated assemblies would be the result. * Obviously, the changes mentioned above are at the design and specification level rather than choices that framers would make. I suppose that 90% of the battle would be convincing framers that "more wood" is not necessarily "stronger and better". As any experienced framing carpenter knows, three well-placed fasteners will be as or more effective (and probably less damaging) than 5 or more placed willy-nilly... and so it is with lumber utilisation. Convincing homebuyers that efficient framing can be better shouldn't be as difficult since visually, the finished product wouldn't be any different if designed and executed properly. Convincing them that Straw Bale homes are better... now that's another story. -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 20:43:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA18789 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:43:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA13984; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:34:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:30:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA13710 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:30:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803030130.UAA13710@solstice.crest.org> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 13:37:58 -0500 From: Danny Parker Subject: GBlist: Re: White roof issue To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: "Bruce A. Wilcox" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2347 > To those interested: Relative to the post by Mr. Holdcraft on the white roofs issue, I offer the following observations. While, he is corrected that a dark commercial roof with perfect insulation will perform well, the reality is quite different in actual buildings since: a) insulation installation is almost never perfect b) the thermal distribution system in commercial buildings is often located in the plenum space We have completed two demonstration projects examining how reflective roofing impacts cooling loads in commercial buildings in Florida. The results of one project in a school can be seen at: http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/~bdac/pubs/CR904/oss.htm One year of pre and post roof whitening data showed a 10% reduction in annual space cooling energy use and a 30% reduction during the hottest months. Interior comfort was also noticeably improved. Another demonstration project at a strip mall has recently been completed for a consortium on Florida utilities. This project monitored seven individually air conditioned shops in a strip mall for a year before and after the roofs were whitened in 1996. The average metered air conditioning reduction was very high: 25%. The reason for the large savings was shown by thermography. Although the metal roof was insulated by R-19 suspended underneath on purlins, the metal studs provided thermal fins which allowed the 160+F roof temperature gradient to raise the plenum temperature to more than 100 F on summer days. As with many commercial buildings, above the acoustic tile ceiling was the thermal distribution system and air handlers for the split system air conditioners. The high temperature conditions in the plenums robbed the air conditioning systems up to a third of their nominal cooling capacity. However when the roofs were made white, the plenum temperatures dropped below ambient conditions (they are unintentionally conditioned by duct/air handler heat transfer) and space cooling energy use dropped. The report documenting these findings will soon be on-line. A key point is that the assumption that insulation is installed in a perfect manner is often erroneous. Also, if the thermal distribution system is located within the roof plenum and insulation is located over the ceiling, no amount of added insulation to the ceiling will be able to produce the reduction in cooling system energy use brought about by a white roof and its interaction with the duct system. While the use of carbon black in the production of roofing membranes may enhance membrane longevity as is claimed, this certainly does not preclude the use of coatings over such materials. Further, it is difficult to see how the great thermal change to a roof surface over a daily cycle (a black membrane can reach 190 F on a hot day) with associated expansion and contraction cannot but accelerate the weathering process when compared with the much reduced thermal gradients to which a white surface would be exposed. -- Danny Parker Florida Solar Energy Center > While white roof surfaces/membranes likely do have a measurable effect > on the > building's cooling load, there is another factor to consider in the > overall > scheme of things. The roof membrane's PRIMARY purpose is to keep the > building > weather-tight, while being exposed to the harshest conditions any > building > component experiences, AND being (usually) the least accessible > component for > periodic maintenance. > > The roofing consultants that I've dealt with (Firestone, Carlisle, > Versico, > Genflex) seem to agree that the carbon black added to the membrane's > composition aides a great deal in protecting the membrane structure, > whether > it be TPO or some form of rubber or EPDM or PVC, or any of the > proprietary > variants. A well detailed and insulated black/gray roofing system > will render > nearly insignificant any off set gains from a white membrane in the > overall > picture. > > Also, I believe I have seen data indicating that there is a good deal > more > embodied energy in a white/light colored membrane due to the problems > associated with UV degradation of the membrane (unless the "white" is > acheived > with ballast stone or crushed rolled on surface treatment, i.e. > composite > shingles) > > Just my two cents worth > > Jim Holdcraft > David Mason & Associates > Architects & Engineers > St. Louis -- - Danny Parker DParker@fsec.ucf.edu Principal Research Scientist Florida Solar Energy Center 1679 Clearlake Road Cocoa, Florida 32922 Phone: 407-638-1405 FAX: 407-638-1439 Internet: http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/~bdac ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 20:50:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA18972 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:50:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA14524; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:42:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:38:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA14097 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 20:37:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803030137.UAA14097@solstice.crest.org> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 14:46:15 -0500 From: Danny Parker Subject: Re: GBlist: Light colored (white) roofing and R-30 Insulation To: "Bruce A. Wilcox" , AKATZ@aec.ncsu.edu, Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET, greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2348 > Hi everyone, A couple of notes on the posting by Arnie Katz relative to some of our work. Arnie is right that we have only found modest differences between light and dark colored asphalt shingles. However, this is not to say that color is not important. On the contrary, color (or more properly solar reflectance) makes an extraordinary difference in summer attic thermal conditions. The problem is that "white" asphalt shingles only have a solar reflectance of about 25%. On close inspection, the reason is obvious: a "white" shingle roof is really white ceramic particles impregnated on a black asphalt substrate. The sun sees more black than white. On the other hand, a white metal roof has a reflectance of about 70%; a white tile roof has a reflectance of about 75%. The differences in solar reflectance have a large impact on solar thermal conditions. Take a look at a web site showing some of what we have measured at a test facility last summer: http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/~bdac/frf.htm Additional work, based on measurements taken in over 20 Florida homes, has shown that peak summer attic air temperatures are dropped by about 8 F by a white shingle, vs. dark shingle roof. A true white reflective roof (70% reflectance) reduces the peak attic air temperature by approximately 35 F. The paper describing this work is being presented at the ASHRAE summer meeting in Toronto ("Monitored Summer Peak Attic Air Temperatures in Florida Residences"). Also, it is not reasonable to solely focus on ceiling heat transfer. When ducts are located in the attic space, a simple accounting will usually show supply duct area to be about a quarter of the the ceiling area. Since ducts are commonly insulated to R-4 to R-6 and contain 55 F air on the supply side, simple arithmetic shows that the heat gain to an attic duct system is more severe than that through R-30 ceiling insulation. Eg. 1500 square foot roof with R-30 = UAroof= 50 Btu/F; with the interior at 75 and the attic at 130, the ceiling heat gain is 2,750 Btu/hr (0.23 tons). The heat gain through the duct system (375 square feet at R-5; UAduct= 75 Btu/F) is based on a higher delta T (130-55) = 75. The duct heat gains 5625 Btu/hr (0.47 tons) are more than twice that throught the ceiling! A white roof would reduce the peak attic air temperature to about 100 F and reduce total roof/ceiling related cooling load by 45% and the required cooling capacity by 0.31 tons. -- Danny Parker > >From: Arnie Katz > >To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET > >Subject: Re: GBlist: Light colored (white) roofing and R-30 > Insulation > >Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org > > > > >These studies were reported in Energy Design Update; contact at FSEC > is, I believe, Danny Parker for this work. > > > >arnie - Danny Parker DParker@fsec.ucf.edu Principal Research Scientist Florida Solar Energy Center 1679 Clearlake Road Cocoa, Florida 32922 Phone: 407-638-1405 FAX: 407-638-1439 Internet: http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/~bdac ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 21:19:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA19810 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:19:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16245; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:10:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:06:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15812 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:06:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from finland.it.earthlink.net (finland-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15807 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 21:06:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net (denmark-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.22]) by finland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04386 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:12:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust33.tnt6.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.17.33]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA13891 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:12:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34FB67B7.5858@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 18:15:19 -0800 From: David Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Roof Life Expectancy References: <199802272133.QAA07549@solstice.crest.org> <3.0.1.16.19980302185534.361f75e8@connexus.apana.org.au> <19980302.120606.3638.3.sbtauto@juno.com> <34FAF7E9.2585@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2349 Chuck Hinckley wrote: > > > One of my favorites is still standing seam, either terne ,copper... As much as I love the look and durability of copper, you've got to keep in mind the devastating fashion they use to extract the stuff (gaping open pit mines. Embodied energy becomes a small consideration in comparison. Seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 2 23:16:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA22781 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:16:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21772; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:08:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:03:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21450 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:03:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA21446 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:03:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA9-p47.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.239]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id XAA19539 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:10:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34FB816E.67CE@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 23:05:02 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: re: Framing Lite References: <199803030106.UAA24771@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2350 Robert Tom Wrote: > * > Obviously, the changes mentioned above are at the design and > specification level rather than choices that framers would make. > I suppose that 90% of the battle would be convincing framers that > "more wood" is not necessarily "stronger and better". You're right, it is the designers decision, not the framers. If the framer is spec'ed to use a particular framing method by the designer they are unlikely to go buy the extra lumber and ignore the prints to do it their way. Everyone wants to lay this on the poor framer, they are building what they have been hired to build. The amount of discretion the framer enjoys is more limited than some of you think, if the specifier leaves it open then they will do what they know to be safe. If it's specified and documented they will follow plans fairly closely. You are giving much more power to the framer than they may actually have. I think you've done a thorough job of filling in many of the blanks as to framing lite. My only further question would be a cost comparison, not that cost should necessarily be the final arbiter, but it does make a difference. Engineered materials are certainly the solution to many of the structural/efficiency equations we are discussing, the major roadblock in their acceptance is not the framers resistance to change, but the budgetary concerns of the owner/builder. And I would still like some info on what you deck 2' o.c. floor joist and rafters with to resist flexing between members, I know there are alternative, but once again what about costs and material consumption. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 3 00:01:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA24113 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:01:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA23863; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:53:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:49:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23530 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:48:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23526 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:48:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.24] (blf24.acadia.net [205.217.217.24]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA13870 for ; Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:55:06 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Mar 1998 23:55:50 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Re: Framing Light Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2351 When I built an addition to my home, which also houses our office, I had a chance to experiment with some innovative framing - the kind of stuff I could never try out on a client without being the guinea pig. I made 7 1/4" ladder trusses for wall framing by using 2x3's held together about every 32" with an OSB web about 7" square, and fastened with pneumatic nails. The ladder trusses rest on 2x8 top and bottom plates - double top plate, b.t.w. I tested the ladder trusses by clamping one side in place and fastening a come-along to the other side. No deformation until above 450 lb.s applied force. I made the ladder trusses in a jig, so they all ended up dead straight. Because the 2x3's had space between them, blown-in cellulose flows between them, reducing thermal bridging. Making all the wall trusses for an 800 square foot addition took me about a day and a half. For headers I made box beams 11" deep out of 2x3's and 7/16" OSB, using pneumatic nails and "Franklin" acrylic based, low-VOC construction adhesive. I put 1 1/2" extruded polystyrene inside the hollow part of the box beams. I used two per window or door opening, and put another layer of foam between them. I salvaged all the foam from scraps at the dump, or other construction jobs. Floors were Truss Joist International wood i-beams, with OSB rim board, and "Microlam" laminated veneer lumber for major girders. Roof framing was conventional 2x8's, which sufficient for the loads. To get a deep cavity for insulation, I made another kind of ladder truss, by using 2x3 cleats and a 2x4 bottom chord. I made the roof 14" deep that way. Roof sheathing was 5/8" plywood, wall sheathing was 7/16" OSB and floor decking was 3/4" t&g plywood, glued and nailed. I used a variation on a "California" corner. At all interior wall intersections with o/s walls, I used scraps to "ladder" between studs @ 16" o.c. With proper nailing schedules and careful use of joist hangers, hurricane clips, holddowns, etc., I think we got a durable structure, excellent insulation, and an efficient use of wood resources. I just hope they got the glue formula right for all that plywood and OSB... David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 3 08:40:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA05794 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:40:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07391; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:32:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:27:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA06830 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:26:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06824 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:26:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id IlN21992; Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:32:20 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: white shingles/ R-30 Insulation Message-ID: <19980303.072714.2695.0.strawboss94@juno.com> References: <199803030137.UAA14097@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 12-14,16,18-20 From: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila A Ard) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 08:32:20 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2352 Thanks so much for your post. I needed a little reinforcment. When discussing the system for our new home with our HVAC man he said there was negligable affect on Florida cooling with the duct in the attic. It just seemed wrong. We opted instead to go w/ floor ducts mounted in our walkout basement. Even though we have white asphault shingles, max. ridge vent, plenty of soffit vents, R-30 insulation,360 degree wrap around porch, we still felt basement ducting would contribute to the overall efficientcy of the arrangment. Even in winter where our weather is not too severe, I expect the basement duct to add to the efficiency of the closed loop hot water system as the basement seems to stay in the 55-70 degree range year round as opposed to the extremes of the attic. Confidence in ones decision is tough when the "pro" doesn't support you at all. . x we have only found modest differences >between>light and dark colored asphalt shingles. color (or more properly >solar reflectance) makes an extraordinary difference in summer attic>thermal conditions. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 3 09:58:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA08246 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:58:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10732; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:46:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10127 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:45:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.155]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10118 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:45:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4TFQa02917 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:51:30 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl Message-ID: <2ec1fa2b.34fc18f5@aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:51:30 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: durability/framing for 200 years Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 82 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2353 Jorg asks: >>Beside ourselves and yourself (and other listserve members, I hope?) who else is designing/building for 200 years in North America? I believe durability is a hallmark of sustainability. It s easy to justify increased incremental costs to offset 2 additional future houses << Jorg I would guess that if you ask any builder with a conscience (how many that eliminates is a guess, is that half full or half empty?) that they would say the were building with the idea that their structures (as long as the occupants put minimal maintenance into their home) would last as long as the oldest wood frame house in "view" ( 250-275 years around here). We would be kidding ourselves, however, if we didn't recognize that every other generation the mechanicals will need replacing if only to keep up with technology (I'm not talking about the fixture d'jour like Jacuzzi toys, either). How soon will fiber optic prewiring be a standard? New window glass with R30 unit values? I like to think that I build structures with standard stick framing (perhaps a little too much framing for redundancy's sake, skip the TJIs and trusses thank you) which will last through minor fires, some roof leaks, a few oblivious occupants, and perhaps the tail end of a hurricane or two to see the year 2250. One of our BIG problems is not the amount of lumber used in each house and how it can be reduced, what we need to reduce is the amount of square foot per capita in this country. Just check out the statistics on "average" house size (climbing yearly) and also the stat on the number of people per dwelling unit in this country (going down). What we have are bigger houses with fewer people living in each one. I've seen 1500 sf additions going on houses for "empty nesters". Just because they can finally afford that master bedroom suite doesn't make it a good thing (contrary to the opinion of NAHB, which I am an agitating, and agitated, member of) REDUCE FIRST, then reuse, and only then recycle. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave Assoc, Contractors Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 3 10:02:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08383 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 10:02:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11095; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:53:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:49:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10463 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:48:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10450 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from usr0a0.wrj.sover.net (usr0a0.wrj.sover.net [206.25.69.190]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA04803; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 09:54:58 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: pike.sover.net: usr0a0.wrj.sover.net [206.25.69.190] didn't use HELO protocol Message-ID: <34FBAAA7.6B05@sover.net> Date: Mon, 02 Mar 1998 23:00:55 -0800 From: Andrea Warchaizer Reply-To: springpt@sover.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: "David M. Foley" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: timber framing for 200 years References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2354 Jorg; Many of my clients for timber framed homes (even those in their forties) tell me that this is their last house- they want to grow old and die in this one. Naturally, accessible and adaptable design considerations need to be worked into the planning. Almost every house I design has a downstairs full bath and a room which could be used in the future as a bedroom. So to answer one of your questions, I believe that clients for timber framed homes plan to be in them longer than the average. Anecdotally, I've heard that this contributes to a problem of financing t.f. houses- it's hard to get "comps", because so few houses turn over (and also relatively few are built). In terms of the very long-term (200 years, say) I don't hear many clients saying that this house will be in their family for a long time. So it's hard to sell really long-term payback items (a slate roof, for instance)- but not too hard to sell a fifty-year decision (standing seam metal roof vs. asphalt shingles). I had a client tell me this week that she would pay the extra $1500 for a metal roof, because she had no intentions of replacing the roof in "only twenty years". Andrea Warchaizer Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > Andrea: I agree that timber frame buildings have this virtue.Do you mention > this fact with clients? Is this aspect marketable? Do owners of TF homes > have longer tenure in their homes, than the average house? Jorg ostrowski > _____________________________________________________________________________ > On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Andrea Warchaizer wrote: > > Jorg et al, > > Most of my timber framing pals would say they are building 200-400 year > > structures, and attempt to usefully "disentangle" mechanical and other > > systems which will have a shorter life span. In the case of a > > well-designed timber framed structure, I believe that more elusive > > factors(such as "beauty" or "spirit") in addition to structural > > integrity can contribute to building longevity. In other words, if you > > love it and it can be easily modified, it will last longer. Of course, > > you still have to build it right so it doesn't fall down, rot, etc. > > > > Andrea Warchaizer > > Springpoint Design > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 3 13:30:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14698 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22104; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:21:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:17:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21676 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21665 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 13:16:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA29322 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:22:31 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005A23F; Tue, 3 Mar 98 12:11:01 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 12:20:58 -0600 Message-ID: <0005A23F.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: New "green" flooring material To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2355 I just read about a new hardsurface flooring material, named "Madera", being produced by Matrix Composites of Canada. It's made from woodfiber, is said to be harder than slate yet much warmer, and is recyclable. They have a website: http://www.solidsurfaceflooring.com/ - Patrick ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 3 14:39:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA17002 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:39:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26937; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:31:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:26:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26423 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:26:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26418 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 14:26:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (gl-ppp23.hevanet.com [204.119.60.43]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23902; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 11:27:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34FC5951.C951465E@hevanet.com> Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 11:26:12 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Framing Light References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2356 David-- It was a great pleasure to read about your framing innovations, and it sounds like you had fun figuring them out. I'm curious how things went with the building inspector, especially around gluing components together? Best, Mike David M. Foley wrote: > When I built an addition to my home, which also houses our office, I had a > chance to experiment with some innovative framing . > (snip) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 3 19:02:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA25619 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:02:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10310; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:54:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:49:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA09796 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:49:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09788 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:49:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip199.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.199]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA05350; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:55:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980304000225.006fa138@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 19:02:25 -0500 To: Pbsustain , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: energy stats Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2357 At 08:34 AM 3/2/1998 EST, Pbsustain wrote: >I remember reading that residential housing was responsible for the largest >portion of electrical use in the U.S. Does anyone have that info handy and a >source for it? Thanks very much. Phil - residential energy use has stayed at about 55% of the total in the US, as well as many parts of the country, for the last decade or so. Recent & more specific info might be available from the feds at EIA (Energy Information Agency). best for the new year ---- -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 3 19:26:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA26287 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:26:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11804; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:18:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:14:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11454 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:14:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11450 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:14:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.213] (ka3-95.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.95]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id TAA27031 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:20:16 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <34F9998D.78E22335@which.net> References: <199802280511.AAA32347@camel8.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 19:19:57 -0500 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Subject: Re: GBlist: Roof Life Expectancy Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAA11451 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2358 >> May 1995 gave us 5" hailstones (long-suffering sigh from the >> insurance agent who said roofs typically get replaced every 5 years >> due to weather). Each spring and fall we usually had a couple of >> storms with 1" or larger hail, 70+mph winds, the usual. I would love >> a roof that would hold up to that for the 20+ years expected in >> Virginia. Might help the insurance rates a bit (which were easily 4x >> higher for the same valuation). Food for thought: a living roof is invulnerable to hail. The grass or strawberries might suffer a bit, but they'll bounce back just fine. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 4 02:57:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA10560 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:57:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA00176; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:49:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:44:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA29954 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:44:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from oznet11.ozemail.com.au (oznet11.ozemail.com.au [203.2.192.118]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA29950 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 02:44:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from COMPUTER (slmel59p11.ozemail.com.au [203.108.205.59]) by oznet11.ozemail.com.au (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA16177 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:50:14 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 18:50:14 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199803040750.SAA16177@oznet11.ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: graaph@ozemail.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: graaph design Subject: GBlist:Framing "Aussie style" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2359 Buzz & GBListers, G'Day from the land of "OZ". Here in Australia we certainly do use lighter framing than in the US. To put it in dollar terms, the average medium quality timber framed house, costs around $60/SqFt ($45 US) complete. The Timber Species most common are Pinus Radiata and local Hardwoods such as Mountain Ash. Pine is used for wall framing, roof framing, roof and wall trusses, Hardwoods used for Roof and Floor framing. Most Common Framing Sizes as follows; Studs 90x35mm - Pine (3.5"x1.5"@ 2' crs). Top & Bottom Plates - Pine 1x 90x45mm (3.5"x1.75") Headers - as per Studs up to 1400mm spans (4' 7") Lintel beams are used in openings greater than 1400mm but these are designed to be project specific. Floor Joists - Hardwood 100x38mm (4"x1.5"@ 2' crs). Bearers - Hardwood 100x75mm (4"x3"@ 6' crs). Stumps - Precast Concrete 100x100mm (4"x4"@ 5' crs). Siding - Western Red Cedar, Baltic Pine, Pinus Radiata, Hardwood, Aluminium and Fibre Cement. Timber framed houses generally have a minimum design life span of 50 years, this is more often exceeded with houses in excess of 100 years being reasonably common. The most popular form of construction is Brick-Veneer, timber cladding has become less popular here due to maintenance requirements, and the marketing of real estate agents. Roofing materials; most common terracotta or concrete tiles (real estate agents have a lot to answer for). Steel roofing is the next most common (my favourite), oldest steel roof that i have seen here is a homestead on the border of New South Wales and Victoria - 200 years on and no rust! We have an enormous range of light weight engineered timber products available, full steel domestic framing is common, yet traditional light weight timber framing is most common. Timber costs are low and we have large commercially managed pine and hardwood plantations throughout Australia. Short length finger jointed timber framing is also now commonly used (timber previously destined for the fireplace or landfill), laminated timber products, plywood laminated products, steel and timber composite products and many others are all commonly used throughout the housing industry, making lightweight construction in timber very common. For those of you who would like more detail on the above, please contact me direct, and i will be happy to oblige. Geoff Hoare. Managing Director GRAAPH DESIGN Suite 18 20 Commercial Road Melbourne Victoria 3004 Australia tel; 0011 61 3 9867 4677 fax; 0011 61 3 9867 4110 email; graaph@ozemail.com.au ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 4 07:53:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA17820 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:53:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA06179; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:45:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:41:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA05931 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:41:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo23.mail.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.151]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA05926 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:41:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4IUVa05359 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:47:06 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl Message-ID: <859d8469.34fd4d4d@aol.com> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:47:06 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #100 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 82 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2360 In a message dated 3/04/98 7:07:36, I wrote: > Just check out the statistics on "average" house size >(climbing yearly) and also the stat on the number of people per dwelling unit >in this country (going down) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 4 08:03:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA18055 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:03:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA06789; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:54:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:50:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA06456 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA06450 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:50:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4DWDa04319 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:56:00 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl Message-ID: <879c9cea.34fd4f62@aol.com> Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:56:00 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: durability/framing for 200 years Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 82 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2361 >From a message dated 3/04/98 7:07:36,: >Just check out the statistics on "average" house size >(climbing yearly) and also the stat on the number of people per dwelling unit >in this country (going down). What we have are bigger houses with fewer >people living in each one Just to add fuel to my own fire, here is a stat I ran across just recently in the local newspaper: The average square foot of living space per capita in three countries: 330sf Japan 431sf Germany 627sf US Add to this that many of our house sit empty for 10 hours/day and that we then have to build office/school space for everyone's "home away from home", it adds up to a huge use of resources. I don't suppose that excuses me from using extra 2X6 when framing on 16 centers, does it.? Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave Assoc., Contractors Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 4 09:51:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22712 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11273; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:42:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:38:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10506 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:38:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10485; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:37:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA148558; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:42:32 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:42:31 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Energy Efficiency Listserver , Strawbale Listserver , Gordon Howell Subject: GBlist: avoided cost for Clean Green Energy Contract Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2362 I am negotiating an innovative contract for the purchase of clean green electrical backup, as required (from the grid).I am prepared to pay substantially more if I can integrate: 1) an incentive for conservation 2) clean green energy supply (ie. PV) 3) tradable emissions (or rebate/discount for environmental credits) 4) lower cost for lower consumption This integrated bundled energy contract should be guided by progressive policies, state-of-the-art economic instruments, built-in incentives and equitable pricing as an investment for a healthy home, conserver lifestyle and a sustainable planet. How can I determine the value (in $/kWh) for the above? What contacts and precedents would you recommend? Comments and constructive criticism welcomed. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 4 10:03:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA23126 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 10:03:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12186; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:55:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:51:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11919 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:50:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from onyx.adlittle.com (onyx.adlittle.com [161.22.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11915 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:50:52 -0500 (EST) From: barbour.edward@adlittle.com Received: from ccMail by onyx.adlittle.com (IMA Internet Exchange 3.0 Enterprise) id 0000756C; Wed, 4 Mar 98 10:00:22 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 09:56:48 -0500 Message-ID: <0000756C.eval@adlittle.com> To: Pbsustain , greenbuilding@crest.org, Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re[2]: GBlist: energy stats Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="IMA.Boundary.2263209880" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2363 --IMA.Boundary.2263209880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Actually, the breakdown of primary energy and electricity consumption for the U.S. is as follows (and have been about the same percentages for the last 20 years) Total Primary Energy: Residential Commercial Industry Transportation 20% 16% 37% 27% Electricity: Residential Commercial Industry 35% 31% 34% Ed ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: GBlist: energy stats Author: Frazer Dougherty at Internet Date: 3/3/98 7:02 PM At 08:34 AM 3/2/1998 EST, Pbsustain wrote: >I remember reading that residential housing was responsible for the largest >portion of electrical use in the U.S. Does anyone have that info handy and a >source for it? Thanks very much. Phil - residential energy use has stayed at about 55% of the total in the US, as well as many parts of the country, for the last decade or so. Recent & more specific info might be available from the feds at EIA (Energy Information Agency). best for the new year ---- -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ --IMA.Boundary.2263209880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="RFC822 message headers" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Content-Disposition: inline; filename="RFC822 message headers" Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10]) by amethyst.adlittle.com with SMTP (IMA Internet Exchange 3.0 Enterprise) id 00006CE4; Tue, 3 Mar 98 19:00:18 -0500 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09973; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:50:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:49:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA09796 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:49:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09788 for ; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:49:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip199.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.199]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA05350; Tue, 3 Mar 1998 18:55:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980304000225.006fa138@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Mar 1998 19:02:25 -0500 To: Pbsustain , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: energy stats Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk --IMA.Boundary.2263209880-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 4 12:09:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27101 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:09:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20392; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:00:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:56:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA19758 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:56:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from austin.aus.sig.net (austin.sig.net [199.1.78.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19747 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:55:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.195.85.146] (server.ail.org [192.195.85.146] (may be forged)) by austin.aus.sig.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA19972 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 11:00:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from [100.100.100.6] by [192.195.85.146] via smtpd (for [199.1.78.2]) with SMTP; 4 Mar 1998 16:58:51 UT Date: 04 Mar 98 10:57:22 -0600 From: Matthew DeWolfe Subject: GBlist: GB Manuals To: "GB Disc. Group" Message-ID: <980304.105722@ail.org> X-Mailer: QM-Internet Gateway 1.0.1 X-Priority: 4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id LAA19752 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2364 GBListers: Since I seemed to provoke a number of questions regarding a GB in TX manual, here is more detailed info for all spectators: Two manuals: One compiled one year ago (w/ revisions) detailing how we build our homes (primarily Faxwall wall forms w/ stucco, although lately we have shifted to SIPs) 100+ pages w/ photo--MORE OF A HOW-TO One compiled last December detailing the appropriateness of various GB strategies to regional climatic conditions. 100+ pages w/ graphics & maps--MORE TECHNICAL One video, 11 minutes running time, briefly details how we build our houses (some materials and techniques explained, a good intro to what we do) This is a bundle, items are not available separately. Will be available shortly, waiting for December manual to be printed. These are not state documents, but have been prepared using funds from DOE in Plano, TX and DC. If interested, please re-send your notes so I can reply to them with costs, addresses, and a short snippit from the second manual. Matthew Carl DeWolfe dewolfe@ail.org American Institute for Learning Texas YouthWorks Technical Assistance Specialist 204 E. 4th St., Austin, TX 78701 (512) 472 3395 x44 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 4 13:08:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00058 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:08:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23498; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:59:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:55:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23166 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:55:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23160 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:55:33 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NPC10945; Wed, 04 Mar 1998 13:00:26 EST To: Caaradrbl@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:05:54 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Re: durability/framing for 200 years Message-ID: <19980304.121249.3678.8.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <879c9cea.34fd4f62@aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-50 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2365 The 10 hour absence is a great justification for the implementation and use of a control system to automatically disable a residential electrical system in order to save, conserve and intelligently manage the home electric consumption. Thanks for that info. I can use it. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Wed, 4 Mar 1998 07:56:00 EST Caaradrbl writes: > >>From a message dated 3/04/98 7:07:36,: > >>Just check out the statistics on "average" house size >>(climbing yearly) and also the stat on the number of people per >dwelling unit >>in this country (going down). What we have are bigger houses with >fewer >>people living in each one > >Just to add fuel to my own fire, here is a stat I ran across just >recently in >the local newspaper: >The average square foot of living space per capita in three countries: >330sf Japan >431sf Germany >627sf US > >Add to this that many of our house sit empty for 10 hours/day and that >we then >have to build office/school space for everyone's "home away from >home", it >adds up to a huge use of resources. >I don't suppose that excuses me from using extra 2X6 when framing on >16 >centers, does it.? > >Rick Darfler >Cleveland Ave Assoc., Contractors >Ithaca, NY >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 4 23:17:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA17884 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:17:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA25527; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:08:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:02:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25193 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:02:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA25189 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:02:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA17582; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:07:28 -0800 Message-ID: <34FE2447.DF8CD4C9@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 20:04:24 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: "David M. Foley" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: durability/framing for 200 years References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2366 There is something in this thread I find disturbing but am having a hard time putting my finger on. So I'll tread softly and keep some piece of light framing handy. A lot of structures have passed the 200 year mark despite any intent on the builders part, in fact I think there are quite a number of 1000yr plus slums in existence that originated as slums. Most of the oversized, overbuilt custom homes that bear the distinction of built to last won't survive a decade without a substantial lifestyle renovation that will undo or seriously compromise any aspect of sustainability. I think what I want to say is lets not directly equate some romanticized notion of crafmanship with sustainability that would be too literal, too insubstantial and would form a poor link to the evolution of craft - something akin to having a 2x on your shoulder or posturing to ill effect. Its nice to view our work as having substance but if we are going to indulge in a fringe activity lets make substantial changes instead of embodying any more substance than is already out there. We don't need any more monuments perhaps a few more reusable materials and fewer materials taken out of the general inventory might suffice as an activity for posterity. Well, still didn't put my finger on it - but enough for now. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > You said: " But the fundamental structure of a building, so hard to go > into and repair later, ought to last at least 200 years..." > > David: Beside ourselves and yourself (and other listserve members, I hope?) who > else is designing/building for 200 years in North America? I believe durability > is a hallmark of sustainability. It s easy to justify increased incremental > costs to offset 2 additional future houses (@ the standard 60-70 year life > cycle). > _________________________________________________________ > Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > _____________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 4 23:40:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA18462 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:40:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27105; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:32:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:26:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA26819 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:26:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26815 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:26:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip233.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.233]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA09837 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:33:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980305044001.00660500@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Mar 1998 23:40:01 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: compact fluorescents for daylight sensors Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2367 At 11:55 AM 2/28/1998 -0500, Alex Wilson wrote: >Relative to the discussion on dimming compact fluorescent lamps and use >with photosensors: My ~8 yr old cfls (all outdoors, not all electronic ballasted, although rarely -10F on Long Island) are working fine with photosensors &/or timers & have yet to be replaced. Agreeded, if you place a photosensor in an iffy area, any lamp will go on & off rapidly and kill the specific lamp. (I am finding that still 1 out of ~40 are NG immediately or failing prematurely). Given traffic lights, re/deflected sunset/sunrise issues, etc., correct placement of the photocell is important. I will buy a dimmable Phillips ASAP for my own edification (or illumination as punned earlier) - But we might want to think about the possibility that dimmable lights in houses are part of what A. Lovins reasoned about ductwork - that it was a sloppy solution to the correct design of a house. But - I do want to know what happen to the 3-way CFL that Solium (Randolph, MA, not CA) was producing 2 years or so ago. It used a GE 2D Polylux lamp and seemed highly useful. It got great ratings from a utility evaluation study we did in the NE. The lamp is standard (made in Gt Britain), the ballast is/was UL rated, made in the USA & has a Patent Pending. How come it's not available?? best for the new year ---- -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 4 23:50:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA18806 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:50:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27619; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:36:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27256 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:36:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheetah.pacinfo.com (root@cheetah.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27252 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 23:36:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (p19.s2.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.201]) by cheetah.pacinfo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA22342 for ; Wed, 4 Mar 1998 20:43:10 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980305044001.00660500@pop.mindspring.com> References: Conversation <1.5.4.32.19980305044001.00660500@pop.mindspring.com> with last message <1.5.4.32.19980305044001.00660500@pop.mindspring.com> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Clan Handley" Subject: Re: GBlist: compact fluorescents for daylight sensors Date: Wed, 04 Mar 98 20:40:23 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2368 > But - I do want to know what happen to the 3-way CFL that Solium (Randolph, > MA, not CA) was producing 2 years or so ago. It used a GE 2D Polylux lamp > and seemed highly useful. It got great ratings from a utility evaluation > study we did in the NE. The lamp is standard (made in Gt Britain), the > ballast is/was UL rated, made in the USA & has a Patent Pending. How come > it's not available?? > best for the new year ---- I'm pretty sure this is the 3-way bulb I saw at the Real Goods store a couple of weeks ago. The Harmony catalog (Seventh Generation) also carries a Circline 3-way compact flourescent bulb. The ballast is reusable for 40,000 hours. Seventh Generation Catalog Harmony 1-800-869-3446 Barbara Handley Eugene, Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 5 09:27:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA05353 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:27:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12478; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:19:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:12:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11871 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:12:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11865 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:12:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28445 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:18:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 09:18:25 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Reduce vs Framing Lite To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199803040700.CAA28642@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2369 > Subject: GBlist: durability/framing for 200 years > I would guess that if you ask any builder with a conscience (how many that ... lots of good stuff snipped .... > We would be kidding ourselves, however, if we didn't recognize that every > other generation the mechanicals will need replacing if only to keep up with > technology (I'm not talking about the fixture d'jour like Jacuzzi toys, > either). How soon will fiber optic prewiring be a standard? New window glass > with R30 unit values? This process, BTW, has been formally studied for quite some time, and is part of Canada's CSA Standard Guideline on Durability in Buildings (S478-95). In commercial buildings we consider this often, and a plan is made up with the replacement intervals of flooring, lighting, HVAC, windows, caulking, roofing, clading, etc. Once you accept this long term building upgrade is reality, you tend to design differently and better. > One of our BIG problems is not the amount of lumber used in each house and how > it can be reduced, what we need to reduce is the amount of square foot per > capita in this country. Just check out the statistics on "average" house size > (climbing yearly) and also the stat on the number of people per dwelling unit > in this country (going down). What we have are bigger houses with fewer > people living in each one. I've seen 1500 sf additions going on houses for > "empty nesters". Just because they can finally afford that master bedroom > suite doesn't make it a good thing (contrary to the opinion of NAHB, which I > am an agitating, and agitated, member of) REDUCE FIRST, then reuse, and only > then recycle. I agree whole heartedly, and have campaingned hard for as much. But this gets back to environment and economy isues. I CAN sell "framing lite", the builder can see the savings ($) and will reduce. The consumer does not care, or more accurately, does not see, the costs of their actions and so 4000 sq ft monsters are put very often. I extol the virutes of a well-designed 1600 sq ft house for a family of four (and know that good design can get that down quite a bit), but the consumer wants to pay for a 2700 sq ft prestige house, then argues they can't afford a steel roof, a high efficiency furnace (their low efficiency one cost more than the good one for a small house), upgrades to good windows, etc. So, while conspicuous consumption housing really burns me up, I am trying to do what I can -- save wood by framing lite and other techniques (like durable concrete) and quantify the damage caused by and inferior quality delivered by the "big is better" mentality. I hope we can find mechanisms to change the problem here, and that is the consumer demand. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 5 10:20:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06705 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16159; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:12:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:08:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15706 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:08:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from udecc.engr.udayton.edu (udecc.engr.udayton.edu [131.238.32.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15700 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:08:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from meepc14 by udecc.engr.udayton.edu (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA12133; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:14:26 -0500 Message-Id: <9803051514.AA12133@udecc.engr.udayton.edu> X-Organization: University of Dayton, School of Engineering, Dayton OH Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Kevin Hallinan" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:10:09 +0000 Subject: GBlist: RE: Environmental Office Products Reply-To: khallina@engr.udayton.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2370 Hello all, Recently I established a committee which is seeking to define an environmental vision for facilities management and operations for the University of Dayton. I am interested to know if any one knows of other universities who have done something similar. Additionally, the person who runs our bookstore, which services a majority of the offices on campus, is very excited about the opportunity to radically change her operations toward sustainability or at least environmental responsibility. If anyone on the list is familiar with relevant resources concerning this, I would appreciate enlightenment. Kevin Hallinan Kevin Hallinan (937)229-2875 (W) (937)294-6406 (937)229-2756 e-mail: khallina@engr.udayton.edu ftp site: ftp.engr.udayton.edu/khallina URL: http://www.engr.udayton.edu/SOE/Depts/mechanic/facstaff/khallina ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 5 11:03:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08693 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18981; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:55:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:50:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18566 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:50:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18562 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:50:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ppp-206-170-29-160.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.160]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id HAA01242 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 07:56:57 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34FECBBE.64DF@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 07:58:54 -0800 From: George Kamburoff Reply-To: gkam@pacbell.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-PBWG (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Sustainability Index References: <9803051514.AA12133@udecc.engr.udayton.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2371 Fellow Believers, Recently, I met an interesting fellow at a "futures" conference. This person, Branton Kenton Dau, through his company, Trucost, has developed a Sustainability Index, allowing manufacturers, builders, and customers to ascertain the degree of sustainability embidied in their products. The same conference had others with polling data showing the concern of the public for sustainability (it's surprisingly high in undeveloped countries, as well) and their willingness to pay more for appropriate products. If this concept becomes established, I believe many large (and small) producers will rate and advertise their products' lopng-term benefits. Web site and mailing information: Branton Kenton Dau Founder/CEO Trucost Limited Level 3 131A Armagh Street Christchurch New Zealand Tel: +64 365 1091 Fax: +64 365 1321 Website: http:\\www.trucost.co.nz The new commercial site with free trial downloads is on line. I read today about a large-scale power outage in the capital of Auckland, so if you do not get immediate communication, try again. George Kamburoff Consultant in Electrical Power ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 5 11:30:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09634 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:30:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20861; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:22:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:16:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA20087 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:16:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20083 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:16:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (br-ppp16.hevanet.com [198.5.254.140]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23146; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:22:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34FED0E9.82355C21@hevanet.com> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:21:00 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Reduce vs Framing Lite References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2372 Hi, John-- Amen! What I think I see around Portland is that the buildings that get renovated are the ones people like or desire--for instance, loft living has become all the rage, and developers, seeing that there's a market for funky spaces, have been renovating warehouses and garages into living space. That can be a lot of work and expense, to install sprinklers, earthquake upgrades, handicapped access, etc., but it's worth it because people will pay for what they like--$1200 a month and up for a box with old brick walls and high ceilings, in a neighborhood where you have to watch out for semi-trucks when you walk. So I think lite-framed or "green" structures will be renovated, if there's some reason that people like or enjoy the buildings. Best, Mike John Straube wrote: > I agree whole heartedly, and have campaingned hard for as much. But this > gets back to environment and economy isues. I CAN sell "framing lite", > the builder can see the savings ($) and will reduce. The consumer does > not care, or more accurately, does not see, the costs of their actions > and so 4000 sq ft monsters are put very often. I extol the virutes of a > well-designed 1600 sq ft house for a family of four (and know that good > design can get that down quite a bit), but the consumer wants to pay for > a 2700 sq ft prestige house, then argues they can't afford a steel roof, > a high efficiency furnace (their low efficiency one cost more than the > good one for a small house), upgrades to good windows, etc. > > So, while conspicuous consumption housing really burns me up, I am trying > to do what I can -- save wood by framing lite and other techniques (like > durable concrete) and quantify the damage caused by and inferior quality > delivered by the "big is better" mentality. I hope we can find > mechanisms to change the problem here, and that is the consumer demand. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 5 11:32:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09677 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:32:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21026; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:23:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:18:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA20259 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:18:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20253 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:17:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id DRFJa28612; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:23:38 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: <8bb337ba.34fed18c@aol.com> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:23:38 EST To: khallina@engr.udayton.edu Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Environmental Office Products Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2373 In a message dated 98-03-05 10:16:27 EST, you write: << I am interested to know if any one knows of other universities who have done something similar. Additionally, the person who runs our bookstore, which services a majority of the offices on campus, is very excited about the opportunity to radically change her operations toward sustainability or at least environmental responsibility. If anyone on the list is familiar with relevant resources concerning this, I would appreciate enlightenment. >> Kevin (and others), Here's a couple of web sites that could be helpful. College and University Recycling Council (http://earthsystems.org/curc/curc3.html) Green Lights Environmental Resources http://www.facilities.rochester.edu/greenlights/Campus.htm In addition, there are organizations like the Buy Recycled Business Alliance, 703-683-9025x209 (Bonnie Fedchock) that are worth joining for the information as well as EPA's WasteWise program 1-800-EPA-WISE. Contact me if you need more information. I've done a lot of work in this area. Phil Bailey SustainAbility Fredericksburg, Va ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 5 11:46:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10048 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:46:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21781; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:37:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:32:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21414 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:32:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21408 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:32:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ppp-206-170-29-181.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.181]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id IAA22213 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 08:38:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34FED572.4AC@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 08:40:18 -0800 From: George Kamburoff Reply-To: gkam@pacbell.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-PBWG (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: sustainability index Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2374 Oops! I recently posted the web site for Trucost, a New Zealand software company with a sustainability index, and misprinted their web site address. To those trying to follow up, I apologize for using backslashes in error. Must be the ghost of Gates, bedeviling me again. The REAL site address is: http://www.trucost.co.nz george kamburoff ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 5 12:05:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10543 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:05:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23123; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:56:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:51:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22664 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:50:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22660 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:50:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA6-p44.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.172]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA23271 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:57:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34FED845.361D@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 05 Mar 1998 11:52:21 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: sustainability index References: <34FED572.4AC@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2375 George wrote: "The new commercial site with free trial downloads is on line." Yikes, I hope their program is one hell of a lot better done than that site, that is the stupidist, clumsiest piece of unwieldy cyberjunk I've run into in a long time. Don't people realize that good, economical design on the web is just as important as anywhere else. When I have considerably more time, I'll try out the download. It sounds like a great concept as you describe it George, I just hope they are better at program design than webpage design. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 5 13:46:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15527 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:46:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00291; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:38:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:32:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA29421 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:32:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29409 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA11876 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:37:46 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005A3DE; Thu, 5 Mar 98 12:26:36 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:36:15 -0600 Message-ID: <0005A3DE.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2376 To add another perspective to the discussion, I think a good case could be made for the position that MAXIMIZING the amount of wood in a structure is a very good thing, in light of the Global Warming phenomenon. Here's why: Any cellulose-based material(wood, straw etc) is about 50 percent carbon by weight. Where does this carbon come from? From the atmosphere....carbon dioxide(the "culprit" in global warming) is REMOVED from the atmosphere and converted, via photosynthesis, to cellulose. Therefore, whenever you use wood material, you are effectively removing from the atmosphere, and storing, carbon dioxide. Studies of "carbon budgets" have shown that the process of producing, for example, wood studs, results in a net removal of carbon from the atmosphere. In contrast, whenever you use steel, aluminum, plastic etc, you are releasing carbon dioxide, EVEN IF the material is recycled(because the recycling process results in a net ADDITION of CO2 to the atmosphere). Anyway, it's something to keep in mind, if you're concerned about the global warming issue. - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 5 13:54:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15832 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:54:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01135; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:46:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:41:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00697 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:41:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00689 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.162.253.96] (d76.best1.net [205.162.253.96]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA22640; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:47:35 -0800 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:48:20 -0100 To: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2377 > Any cellulose-based material(wood, straw etc) is about 50 percent > carbon by weight. Where does this carbon come from? From the > atmosphere....carbon dioxide(the "culprit" in global warming) is > REMOVED from the atmosphere and converted, via photosynthesis, to > cellulose. Therefore, whenever you use substitute GROW for USE and I agree. Otherwise , this is not a valid argument. Wood products from well managed forest resources are probably the least environmeentally deleterious of building products; but most applications are project, and geography specific. Not an either/or. > wood material, you are > effectively removing from the atmosphere, and storing, carbon dioxide. > Studies of "carbon budgets" have shown that the process of producing, > for example, wood studs, results in a net removal of carbon from the > atmosphere. ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 5 14:01:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16083 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:01:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01730; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:53:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:49:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA01280 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheetah.pacinfo.com (root@cheetah.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01269 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:49:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (p15.s2.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.197]) by cheetah.pacinfo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08743 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 10:55:24 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0005A3DE.1762@us.teltech.com> References: Conversation <0005A3DE.1762@us.teltech.com> with last message <0005A3DE.1762@us.teltech.com> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Clan Handley" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years Date: Thu, 05 Mar 98 10:52:34 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2378 ---------- > To add another perspective to the discussion, I think a good case > could be made for the position that MAXIMIZING the amount of wood in a > structure is a very good thing, in light of the Global Warming > phenomenon. Here's why: > > Any cellulose-based material(wood, straw etc) is about 50 percent > carbon by weight. Where does this carbon come from? From the > atmosphere....carbon dioxide(the "culprit" in global warming) is > REMOVED from the atmosphere and converted, via photosynthesis, to > cellulose. Therefore, whenever you use wood material, you are > effectively removing from the atmosphere, and storing, carbon dioxide. > Studies of "carbon budgets" have shown that the process of producing, > for example, wood studs, results in a net removal of carbon from the > atmosphere. This also seems to me to be an excellent argument for leaving the trees growing in the forest. Perhaps I'm a complete idiot, but it seems to me that a growing tree will CONTINUE to fix CO2, where as a dead tree in your house isn't doing that anymore. I vote for more trees in the forest. Less wood in our homes. Barbara Handley Eugene, Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 5 14:11:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16370 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02784; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:03:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:58:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02122 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:58:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02103 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:58:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA12114; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:03:46 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005A3EA; Thu, 5 Mar 98 12:52:37 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 13:02:40 -0600 Message-ID: <0005A3EA.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: Re[2]: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years To: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet), smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2379 ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years Author: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) at Internet Date: 3/5/98 10:48 AM > Any cellulose-based material(wood, straw etc) is about 50 percent > carbon by weight. Where does this carbon come from? From the > atmosphere....carbon dioxide(the "culprit" in global warming) is > REMOVED from the atmosphere and converted, via photosynthesis, to > cellulose. Therefore, whenever you use substitute GROW for USE and I agree..... Nope, I stand by my original statement. - Patrick ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 5 15:35:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19703 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:35:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06842; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:26:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:22:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06426 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:22:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06421 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:22:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.204] (pm3a14.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.204]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA26823 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:28:28 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebnpr@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <0005A3DE.1762@us.teltech.com> Conversation <0005A3DE.1762@us.teltech.com> with last message <0005A3DE.1762@us.teltech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:29:19 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Doug Patterson Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2380 >This also seems to me to be an excellent argument for leaving the trees >growing in the forest. Perhaps I'm a complete idiot, but it seems to me >that a growing tree will CONTINUE to fix CO2, where as a dead tree in your >house isn't doing that anymore. > >I vote for more trees in the forest. Less wood in our homes. Although many studies have indicated that younger trees absorb carbon at a faster rate than older trees, old-growth trees hold the largest amount of CO2. Therefore, maintaining the maximum amount of old-growth forest possible will retain rather than release the largest quantities of CO2. Of course, the amount of CO2 released when trees are removed is dependent on how the trees are removed (slash and burn vs logged with no burning vs natural death) and how much processing the logs go through. In addition, unless the wood in question is left intact for the duration of its existence it will at some point continue to release CO2 if and when it is burnt, left to rot, or placed in a landfill. In other words, at worst replace the trees you cut, at best limit the amount you cut in the first place and make the highest and best use of the wood removed and/or look for more environmentally sensitive wood substitutes first. Doug Patterson EBN ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 5 15:55:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA20524 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:55:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08255; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:46:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:42:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA07857 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:42:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07789 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:42:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA29218 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:48:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 5 Mar 1998 12:47:12 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: DREAM HOUSE To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA07850 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2381 If any of you greenthinkers are feeling masochistic today, go visit Life Magazine's DREAM HOME site. http://www.pathfinder.com/Life/dreamhouse/index.html What you will find, other than an over-sized and over-glassed house, is mention of Jackie O. (and other "well-healed clients) and APPEARANCES, APPEARANCES, APPEARANCES. What you will not find is any mention of any of the things we discuss on this site. This my friends is what we are up against: it's the checkout-line-at-the-supermarket mentality about housing that rules the day. The main thing you want to look for in a home is that the architect also designs for celebrities. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 5 19:58:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA27890 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:58:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA20532; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:50:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:45:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA20213 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:45:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA20207 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:45:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id TbM20199; Thu, 05 Mar 1998 19:45:20 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:21:22 -0700 Subject: GBlist: GBList: sick buildings Message-ID: <19980305.172123.3462.1.goldeneagle1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,17-21 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2382 anybody on here ever hear of this? FWD: There is an interesting article in the am Star about a house in Hallbrook, the ritzy subdivision south of 435 at Ward Parkway & State Line - house of $500,000+. Seems it has water problems and the air is contaminated with a rare kind of mold that can cause bleeding in the lungs, particularly of young children, even death! They are suing the builder and others. Right now it's wrapped in blue plastic from roof to ground. What a site for the neighbors & prospective buyers!! Imagine what the neighbors are thinking re "property values"!! Seriously, though, it is about 5 years old and the family brought in an air quality person from Chicago who diagnosed it. They left everything - clothes, furniture, etc. - inside and moved to a different house. Didn't say if it can be "cured" or what the plan would be. Imagine it would contaminate the area if opened up to destroy it. Hauling it off wouldn't work either - just spread the contamination. Wow! Ever run across this sort of thing in your reading? Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 01:17:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA06668 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:17:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA02971; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:08:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:04:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA02685 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:04:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from tumalo.bendnet.com (tumalo.bendnet.com [199.2.205.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA02679 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:04:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.163.37.134] (b124.bendnet.com [206.163.37.134]) by tumalo.bendnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.6/bendnet-MX) with SMTP id WAA12067 for ; Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:10:19 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:07:13 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: airtime@bendnet.com (Marti Croal) Subject: Re: GBlist: GBList: sick buildings Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id BAA02680 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2383 Yes, Samantha. This is a growing problem, no pun intended. I have a copy of an article from the Cleveland Plain Dealer from fall of 97. Headline: Parents told of threat to infants from mold: First paragraph: Lake County health officials held the first of two public meetings last night to warn parents about a toxic black mold linked to the dealths of 10 babies in Cuyahoga and Lake counties. The article goes on to say that the mold gives off tiny spores that can cause bleeding in the lungs of infants when inhaled. The disease, called pulmonary hemosiderosis, has affected 33 children in the Cleveland area. In this case the tie-in was a certain type of furnace duct work which draws in basement air, heats it, blows it upstairs and then drops cold air directly into the open basement. Many, but not all of the affected children lived in older homes with this type of duct work. There is a mold expert in Minnesota, last name Mac something, perhaps another lister can provide it? He is known as "Mr. Mold" and has done workshops around the country on the dangers of mold spores. Recent newspaper articles and CNN report have noted that El Niño has increased the mold count in CA from a normal 50-100 to over 8,000 last week. Alergy specialists have seen there new case loads rise by 50% or more. None have reported deaths directly attributed to mold, but the severe respiratory problems are there. They point to higher rag weed pollens and mold growing everywhere, even on sidewalks. >anybody on here ever hear of this? >There is an interesting article in the am Star about a house in >Hallbrook, the ritzy subdivision south of 435 at Ward Parkway & State >Line - house of $500,000+. Seems it has water problems and the air is >contaminated with a rare kind of mold that can cause bleeding in the >lungs, particularly of young children, even death! ... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 04:23:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA11336 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 04:23:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA07460; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 04:14:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 04:10:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA07205 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 04:10:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (teapot06.bigpond.com [139.134.5.237]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA07201 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 04:10:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from MA-A02-pool-153.tmns.net.au (MA-A02-pool-153.tmns.net.au [139.134.95.153]) by teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ca518780 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:15:56 +1100 Message-ID: <002a01bd48e8$dbe3e4c0$995f868b@default> From: "Brian Woodward" To: Subject: GBlist: Durability/framing for 200 years Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:36:42 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD48EB.C09A6420" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2384 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD48EB.C09A6420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been observing this thread for sometime and although I applaud = the basic objectives of the concept feel that John Salmen recent post = begins to address some of my concerns. =20 I live in Australia and we seem to use smaller member sizes in our = domestic building than in the US. 20 years ago I looked into the = sustainability of the building materials available for domestic scale = building whilst lecturing in the School of Architecture at the Uni of = N.S.W. Thinking globally and acting locally was an important part of my = thinking. =20 I came to the conclusion that it was logical to remove timber from = buildings as much as possible and that the easiest elements of the = building to start with was first the walls and then the floors. To = replace these elements by high thermal mass instead of lightweight well = insulated materials could in some climates improve the prospects for = passive solar design. The most sustainable high thermal mass material = seemed and still seems to me to be earth. In cold climates this may need = to be used in conjunction with a sustainable external insulation such as = clay-straw. =20 After researching the material for 4 years I left academic life to build = my own house using mudbrick walls and floors, and many recycled = materials. The material costs of this house is about AUS$100/sqm = (AUS$10/sqft) =20 Experience in Nepal and South Africa where timber is in short supply and = expensive, particularly for the people in most need of housing, has made = me even more concerned about the large quantity of wood we use in our = houses. I have also been embarrassed by the size of my house, and the = houses I design in Australia. =20 I have been encouraged by the project I am currently involved with in = South Africa, where we are producing owner built, mudbrick houses that = range in size from 28sqm (280sqft) being one room for a couple to 65sqm = (650 sqft) being 4 rooms for a small family. These houses, whilst using = all new materials cost approx. AUS$75/sqm (AUS$7.50/sqft) for materials, = and include passive solar design, insulated roofs, composting toilets, = greywater treatment, and solar water heaters. =20 We need to make our building systems in developed countries more = sustainable to reduce the negative effects we are having on this planet. = However, an even greater need for these changes is to set an example for = the developing countries who so desperately want to copy us. As so many = people have said before if the millions in the developing countries = begin to consume resources in the wasteful and polluting way we do, then = there is little hope for planet earth as we know it, and so for the = survival of our species. Brian Woodward, Earthways, Australia. Qualified Architect -specialising in and living with Sustainable Technologies, Low Cost, = Owner Built, Passive Solar, Loadbearing Mudbrick construction, Composting Toilets, and Solar = Electricity.=20 -Overseas Aid Work in Nepal and South Africa. -Earthways Sustainable Lifestyles Resource Center, Wollombi, N.S.W. = Australia. e-mail brianwoodward@bigpond.com Webpage www.users.bigpond.com/nsw9999 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD48EB.C09A6420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have been observing this thread = for sometime=20 and although I applaud the basic objectives of the concept feel that = John Salmen=20 recent post begins to address some of my concerns.
 
I live in Australia and we seem to = use smaller=20 member sizes in our domestic building than in the US. 20 years ago I = looked into=20 the sustainability of the building materials available for domestic = scale=20 building whilst lecturing in the School of Architecture at the Uni of = N.S.W.=20 Thinking globally and acting locally was an important part of my=20 thinking.
 
I came to the conclusion that it was = logical to=20 remove timber from buildings as much as possible and that the easiest = elements=20 of the building to start with was first the walls and then the floors. = To=20 replace these elements by high thermal mass instead of lightweight well=20 insulated materials could in some climates improve the prospects = for=20 passive solar design. The most sustainable high thermal mass material = seemed and=20 still seems to me to be earth. In cold climates this may need to be used = in=20 conjunction with a sustainable external insulation such as=20 clay-straw.
 
After researching the material for 4 = years I=20 left academic life to build my own house using mudbrick walls and = floors, and=20 many recycled materials. The material costs of this house is about = AUS$100/sqm=20 (AUS$10/sqft)
 
Experience in Nepal and South Africa = where=20 timber is in short supply and expensive, particularly for the people in = most=20 need of housing, has made me even more concerned about the large = quantity of=20 wood we use in our houses. I have also been embarrassed by the size of = my house,=20 and the houses I design in Australia.
 
I have been encouraged by the = project I am=20 currently involved with in South Africa, where we are producing owner = built,=20 mudbrick houses that range in size from 28sqm (280sqft) being one room = for a=20 couple to 65sqm (650 sqft) being 4 rooms for a small family. These = houses,=20 whilst using all new materials cost approx. AUS$75/sqm (AUS$7.50/sqft) = for=20 materials, and include passive solar design, insulated roofs, composting = toilets, greywater treatment, and solar water heaters.
 
We need to make our building systems = in=20 developed countries more sustainable to reduce the negative effects we = are=20 having on this planet. However, an even greater need for these changes = is to set=20 an example for the developing countries who so desperately want to copy = us. As=20 so many people have said before if the millions in the developing = countries=20 begin to consume resources in the wasteful and polluting way we do, then = there=20 is little hope for planet earth as we know it, and so for the survival = of our=20 species.
 
Brian Woodward, Earthways, = Australia. Qualified=20 Architect
-specialising in and living with Sustainable Technologies, = Low=20 Cost, Owner Built, Passive
 Solar, Loadbearing Mudbrick = construction,=20 Composting Toilets, and Solar Electricity.
-Overseas Aid Work in = Nepal and=20 South Africa.
-Earthways Sustainable Lifestyles Resource Center, = Wollombi,=20 N.S.W. Australia.
 e-mail brianwoodward@bigpond.comWebpage=20 www.users.bigpond.com/nsw99= 99
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01BD48EB.C09A6420-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 08:31:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA16583 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:31:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12636; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:22:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:18:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12327 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:18:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12318 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:18:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA16525 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 07:23:53 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005A436; Fri, 6 Mar 98 07:12:51 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 07:22:25 -0600 Message-ID: <0005A436.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Framing To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2385 Date: Thu, 05 Mar 98 10:52:34 PST From: "Clan Handley" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years - ---------- > To add another perspective to the discussion, I think a good case could be made for the position that MAXIMIZING the amount of wood in a structure is a very good thing, in light of the Global Warming >phenomenon. Here's why: > > Any cellulose-based material(wood, straw etc) is about 50 percent carbon by weight. Where does this carbon come from? From the >atmosphere....carbon dioxide(the "culprit" in global warming) is >REMOVED from the atmosphere and converted, via photosynthesis, to >cellulose. Therefore, whenever you use wood material, you are >effectively removing from the atmosphere, and storing, carbon dioxide. > Studies of "carbon budgets" have shown that the process of producing, for example, wood studs, results in a net removal of carbon from the atmosphere. This also seems to me to be an excellent argument for leaving the trees growing in the forest. Perhaps I'm a complete idiot, but it seems to me that a growing tree will CONTINUE to fix CO2, where as a dead tree in your house isn't doing that anymore...... Two things wrong with this idea: It has been shown that as trees age, their growth kind of "stagnates", and in old growth forests there can actually be a net ADDITION of carbon dioxide to the atmosphere because decomposition exceeds growth. Also, think of it this way: If a million acres of forest contain "X" amount of carbon, then a million acres of forest PLUS several hundred thousand wood houses are storing "X-plus" amount of carbon. Simple math. So, while you might argue against loggin from an aesthetics standpoint, it seems clear that using wood to build homes is very environmentally friendly, from the standpoint of global warming. - Patrick Pierquet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 08:41:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA16852 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:41:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13343; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:32:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:28:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12827 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:28:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12823 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:28:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA05692 for ; Fri, 06 Mar 1998 08:33:15 -0500 Message-id: <2486602@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 06 Mar 98 08:40:44 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: GBList: sick buildings To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2386 I forget the name of the mold, but I believe this was first diagnosed in Cleveland by an alert ER doc, who called in the CDC. There were a rash of cases, mostly in low income housing. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 08:43:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA16919 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:43:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13637; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:30:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA13053 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:30:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA13049 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 08:30:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA05697 for ; Fri, 06 Mar 1998 08:35:29 -0500 Message-id: <2486643@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 06 Mar 98 08:42:58 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: GBList: sick buildings To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2387 --- You wrote: There is a mold expert in Minnesota, last name Mac something, perhaps another lister can provide it? He is known as "Mr. Mold" and has done workshops around the country on the dangers of mold spores. --- end of quote --- McGregor Pearce, MPH 2173 Marshall Avenue St. Paul, MN 55104 612 646-4513 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 09:14:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17858 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:14:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15435; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:05:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:01:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14955 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:01:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from m8.sprynet.com (m8.sprynet.com [165.121.2.208]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14943 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:01:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (hdn96-037.hil.compuserve.com [206.175.102.37]) by m8.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA18755 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 06:07:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803061407.GAA18755@m8.sprynet.com> From: "Michael Sandahl" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:01:29 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2388 > Any cellulose-based material(wood, straw etc) is about 50 percent > carbon by weight. Where does this carbon come from? From the > atmosphere....carbon dioxide(the "culprit" in global warming) is > REMOVED from the atmosphere and converted, via photosynthesis, to > cellulose. Therefore, whenever you use wood material, you are > effectively removing from the atmosphere, and storing, carbon dioxide. > Studies of "carbon budgets" have shown that the process of producing, > for example, wood studs, results in a net removal of carbon from the > atmosphere. No offense to Patrick, but this strikes me as reminiscent of Ronald Reagan saying trees pollute. I find it hard to believe that the production of a wood stud results in a net removal of carbon from the atmosphere. If you can show me how you came to this conclusion I will gladly change my views and look at this anew. As I see it there is a tremendous amount of carbon dioxide and other gases produced to get that "wood stud" into a home. The people removing the trees from the forest get to the job site in trucks or cars, their saws (last I heard) are powered by carbon fuels, the equipment to drag the logs to the logging road are most likely not solar or electrically powered (and where do those logging roads come from?), the logging trucks definitely pump out their share of nasty gases, sawmills also add to this growing quantity of gas, as do the trucks delivering the "wood studs" to the local lumberyard, and the trucks delivering the studs to the job site. If you wanted I am sure you could realistically add many other "carbon producers" to the list when you truly take into account what is involved in producing wood products. It seems to me the less we take out the better. Even replanting produces carbon which would not have to be produced if the trees were not cut in the first place. Anything we can do along the line of production to reduce the production of "greenhouse gases" will be a positive step in the right direction, as will steps to reduce the amount of lumber used in the building process. But as I said earlier if you can prove me wrong...great. By the way, just how much carbon dioxide does a 2x4x8' wood stud store? Michael Sandahl hoofnpaw@sprynet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 09:30:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA18373 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:30:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16796; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:22:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:18:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA16360 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:18:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA16353 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:18:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.87]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 5242500 ; Fri, 06 Mar 1998 09:23:15 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980306091610.0068b92c@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 09:16:10 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: University Environmental Guidelines Cc: khallina@engr.udayton.edu In-Reply-To: <199803060700.CAA04148@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2389 >Recently I established a committee which is seeking to define an >environmental vision for facilities management and operations for the >University of Dayton. I am interested to know if any one knows of other universities who >have done something similar. Check out the following web site. http://www.est.gov.bc.ca/fsci/ It contains Environmental Guidelines for facilities at BC University. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 09:58:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA19321 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:58:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18107; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:49:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:45:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA17764 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:44:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17758 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:44:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.25]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 5266200 ; Fri, 06 Mar 1998 09:50:13 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980306094309.0068b92c@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 09:43:09 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Things that Last In-Reply-To: <199803060700.CAA04148@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2390 John Straube wrote: >but the consumer wants to pay for >a 2700 sq ft prestige house, then argues they can't afford a steel roof, >a high efficiency furnace (their low efficiency one cost more than the >good one for a small house), upgrades to good windows, etc. > I have noticed this constantly occuring in small to medium commercial construction as well (I do a lot of work with nonprofit organizations building new facilities). The architect estimates the cost of construction too low, the bids come back too high. A contractor is selected and the process of value engineering begins. Invariably the entire building is "cheapened". Design is simplified, cheaper windows, finishes, HVAC systems, etc. are selected to lower the cost. I have never seen anyone even consider making the building smaller and keeping the more durable, higher quality finishes and design elements. I am constantly recommending that they (my clients) build what what they can afford but do it very well. They don't often listen to a consultant when it comes to this matter. Perhaps this is a good reason for design/build. Is this human nature? American's need for instant gratification? Planned obsolensence? I live in a 155 year old stone house. I am writing this from inside a 216 year old stone building behind the house. The people who built them were making sure they stood the test of time; why has this way of thinking about the future changed so radically? People don't seem to value things that last enough to pay for them. How can this attitude be changed? Sorry, no answers just ranting questions. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 10:14:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19882 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:14:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19023; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:06:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:02:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18630 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:02:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803061502.KAA18630@solstice.crest.org> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 09:30:50 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Kurt Teichert Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: University Environmental Guidelines Cc: khallina@engr.udayton.edu Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2391 Hello, For links to several campus initiatives: http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Brown_Is_Green/greencampus.html which includes: http://iisd1.iisd.ca/educate/ a "toolkit" which has a database of policy and vision statements. Regards, Kurt -- Kurt Teichert | 401-863-7837 | Box 1943, Providence, RI 02912 | ket@brown.edu | http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Brown_Is_Green | ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 10:22:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20116 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:22:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19589; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:09:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19178 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.state.vt.us (mail.state.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19172 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:09:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from vdh.state.vt.us ([159.105.135.209]) by mail.state.vt.us (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-44988U13000L13000S0) with ESMTP id AAA183 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:24:09 -0500 Message-ID: <3500134A.DFB5E5E2@vdh.state.vt.us> Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 10:16:26 -0500 From: mike X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: sick buildings - Reply Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------25BCEB8854B580FE77A7FA8F" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2392 --------------25BCEB8854B580FE77A7FA8F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The mold sounds like Stachybotrys atra which has been associated with infant pulmonary hemorrhaging. Stachybotrys is black or green-black and has a slimy appearance. It grows primarily on materials such as wood and other cellose-based products (including drywall and insulation paper). More information is available from CDC. See "Important Facts about Pulmonary Hemorrhage", (pamphlet) September 1996. and "Update on Pumonary Hemorrhage/Hemosiderosis Among Infact - Cleveland, Ohio, 1993-1996. Mobidity and Mortality Weekly Report, Vol. 46, No. 2, January 17, 1997. You can probably search their website: http://www.cdc.gov/cdc.htm Summary of one article available at http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/01602571.html You can also try EPA's IAQ Info Clearinghouse at (800) 438-4318 or their website (www.epa.gov/iaq) for information on Biological Pollutants, Flood Cleanup, and other IAQ info. Hope this helps. Mike Rogers From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:21:22 -0700 anybody on here ever hear of this? FWD: There is an interesting article in the am Star about a house in Hallbrook, the ritzy subdivision south of 435 at Ward Parkway & State Line - house of $500,000+. Seems it has water problems and the air is contaminated with a rare kind of mold that can cause bleeding in the lungs, particularly of young children, even death! --------------25BCEB8854B580FE77A7FA8F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The mold sounds like Stachybotrys atra which has been associated with infant pulmonary hemorrhaging.  Stachybotrys is black or green-black and has a slimy appearance.  It grows primarily on materials such as wood and other cellose-based products (including drywall and insulation paper).

More information is available from CDC.  See "Important Facts about Pulmonary Hemorrhage", (pamphlet) September 1996.  and "Update on Pumonary Hemorrhage/Hemosiderosis Among Infact - Cleveland, Ohio, 1993-1996.  Mobidity and Mortality Weekly Report, Vol. 46, No. 2, January 17, 1997.  You can probably search their website:  http://www.cdc.gov/cdc.htm

Summary of one article available at http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/01602571.html

You can also try EPA's IAQ Info Clearinghouse at (800) 438-4318 or their website (www.epa.gov/iaq) for information on Biological Pollutants, Flood Cleanup, and other IAQ info.

Hope this helps.

Mike Rogers
 

From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald)
     Date: Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:21:22 -0700
<snip>
anybody on here ever hear of this?

FWD:
There is an interesting article in the am Star about a house in
Hallbrook, the ritzy subdivision south of 435 at Ward Parkway & State
Line - house of $500,000+.  Seems it has water problems and the air is
contaminated with a rare kind of mold that can cause bleeding in the
lungs, particularly of young children, even death!<snip> --------------25BCEB8854B580FE77A7FA8F-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 10:25:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20263 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:25:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19889; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:17:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:13:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19524 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:13:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19516 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:13:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5.carleton.ca [134.117.136.25]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v2.02) with ESMTP id KAA22470; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:19:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id KAA14053; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:19:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:19:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803061519.KAA14053@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: dfugler@cmhc-schl.gc.ca Subject: GBlist: Stachybotrys Atra (was re: Sick Buildings) Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, goldeneagle1@juno.com Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2393 on Thu, 5 Mar 1998 goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) wrote: re: sick buildings > anybody on here ever hear of this? > ...the air is contaminated with a rare kind of mold that can > cause bleeding in the lungs, particularly of young children, > even death! Hello Wendy; The mould sounds like it could be "Stachybotrys Atra" ...a black mould that in Don Fugler's words "is a known baby killer" which causes pulmonary haemorrhaging. Apparently, SA is not all that "rare" either in that it was found in the wall materials of insulated basements in a number of the subject homes which were part of a two (?)- year old study by CMHC. -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 10:41:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20735 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:41:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21284; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:33:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:27:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20676 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:27:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20668 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:27:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.108.2] (usrts5p2.port.net [207.237.108.2]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA13626 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:33:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803061533.KAA13626@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years Date: Fri, 6 Mar 98 10:35:30 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2394 I lost yesterdays (3/5) three " Durability/framing for 200 years" messages while doing some hard drive maintance. Since I'm deciding whether to build with wood or ICFs, specifically the Durisol system, I've been following this thread with some interest and I'm afraid I might have missed something important ( you never know). Could someone be kind enough to privately email me those three messages? Thanks in advance.. Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 10:45:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20850 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:45:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21526; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:36:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:31:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21110 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:31:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21095 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:31:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KWM11257; Fri, 06 Mar 1998 10:36:22 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 10:37:13 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Mr. Mold Message-ID: <19980306.103716.6630.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-10 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2395 Marc, Oops, I goofed and accidently erased that information on "Mr Mold" . Could you repost or just reply to me directly. Thanks, and sorry but it's been a long week . Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 11:14:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA21829 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:14:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23071; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:05:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:01:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22691 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:01:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from eypdc04.eypae.com (eypdc04.eypae.com [205.234.22.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22686 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:01:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by eypdc04.eypae.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id <1VVR3QNQ>; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:08:37 -0500 Message-ID: From: Mike Fowler To: "'C. Dodge'" Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Archives Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:03:42 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2396 To Clarence and all others: At http://solstice.crest.org/sustainable/greenbuilding-list-archive/ is an archive of all messages from this forum. You can use that to read yesterday's postings re: durability/framing for 200 years Hope this is helpful. Mike. ________________________________ Michael E. Fowler Registered Architect, State of New York Einhorn Yaffee Prescott Architecture & Engineering, P.C. The Argus Building PO Box 617 Broadway at Beaver Street Albany NY 12201-0617 EYP Web Site: http://www.eypae.com/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 12:53:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24979 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:53:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28315; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:45:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:40:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA27950 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:40:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA27945 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:40:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.203] (pm3a13.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.203]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA23376; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:46:20 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebnpr@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199803061519.KAA14053@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:42:58 -0500 To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca From: Doug Patterson Subject: Re: GBlist: Stachybotrys Atra (was re: Sick Buildings) Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2397 >on Thu, 5 Mar 1998 >goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) wrote: >re: sick buildings > >> anybody on here ever hear of this? >> ...the air is contaminated with a rare kind of mold that can >> cause bleeding in the lungs, particularly of young children, >> even death! > >Hello Wendy; > >The mould sounds like it could be "Stachybotrys Atra" >...a black mould that in Don Fugler's words "is a known baby killer" >which causes pulmonary haemorrhaging. > >Apparently, SA is not all that "rare" either in that it was found >in the wall materials of insulated basements in a number of the >subject homes which were part of a two (?)- year old study by CMHC. >-- >Rob Tom Debra Wright at CMHC in Toronto has been studying Stachybotrys in Toronto schools. It sounds like many of the modular annexes used by schools in the Toronto area are infested with the mold. I have a feeling we are going to see more and more cases like those described in Cleveland a few years ago where 35 children were diagnosed with pulmonary disease and 12 died. Doug Patterson EBN ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 15:08:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24979 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:53:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28315; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:45:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:40:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA27950 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:40:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA27945 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:40:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.203] (pm3a13.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.203]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA23376; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:46:20 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebnpr@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199803061519.KAA14053@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:42:58 -0500 To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca From: Doug Patterson Subject: Re: GBlist: Stachybotrys Atra (was re: Sick Buildings) Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2398 >on Thu, 5 Mar 1998 >goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) wrote: >re: sick buildings > >> anybody on here ever hear of this? >> ...the air is contaminated with a rare kind of mold that can >> cause bleeding in the lungs, particularly of young children, >> even death! > >Hello Wendy; > >The mould sounds like it could be "Stachybotrys Atra" >...a black mould that in Don Fugler's words "is a known baby killer" >which causes pulmonary haemorrhaging. > >Apparently, SA is not all that "rare" either in that it was found >in the wall materials of insulated basements in a number of the >subject homes which were part of a two (?)- year old study by CMHC. >-- >Rob Tom Debra Wright at CMHC in Toronto has been studying Stachybotrys in Toronto schools. It sounds like many of the modular annexes used by schools in the Toronto area are infested with the mold. I have a feeling we are going to see more and more cases like those described in Cleveland a few years ago where 35 children were diagnosed with pulmonary disease and 12 died. Doug Patterson EBN ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 17:18:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA09697 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:18:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA12389; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:10:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:06:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA12045 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:05:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA12041 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:05:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.5] (iplink5.crocker.com [205.246.4.5]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA32390; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:24:36 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 17:17:16 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Framing "Aussie style" Cc: graaph@ozemail.com.au Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2399 Geoff and other on the list, Geoff's post on framing "Aussie style" made me smile. I wonder how many in the US (and elsewhere outsde Australia) are confused over the terminology. You should be. I have been operating professionally in the US for 16 years, but I remeber well the new language I had to learn when I left Australia. Consider the following terms from Geoff's post .... "stump" (a post); "bearers" (main support beams); "timber" (lumber ... rather than the way we use "timber" in the US); "timber framing" (stud framing maybe balloon framing, though I have notice that Assies are using platform framing more recently.. though I have yet to see a band joist); "mountain ash" (it's a species of eucalypt.. no ash in sight.. European common name abound for eucalypts in Australia) This just for starters. If I have a point (which I am not to particular about) it is that communication across borders requires that we speak a common language (and Australain is different from English and different again from American.. etc.),.. or at least that we recognize that there are differences even if we don't understand them. I can see Tedd Benson reading Geoff's post and thinking .",,,Geez, timber framing don't last too long in Australia, they must be a sloppy bunch of bastards". Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 22:11:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19649 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:11:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA23025; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:03:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:58:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA22688 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:58:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheetah.pacinfo.com (root@cheetah.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22683 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:58:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (p28.tc1.pacinfo.com [208.129.29.28]) by cheetah.pacinfo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28922 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 19:04:40 -0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0005A436.1762@us.teltech.com> References: Conversation <0005A436.1762@us.teltech.com> with last message <0005A436.1762@us.teltech.com> X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Clan Handley" Subject: GBlist: 1,000,000 minus 600,000 equals 1,600,000??? Date: Fri, 06 Mar 98 19:01:29 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2400 > > Also, think of it this way: If a million acres of forest contain "X" > amount of carbon, then a million acres of forest PLUS several hundred > thousand wood houses are storing "X-plus" amount of carbon. Simple > math. Let's try some different "simple math". You have a million acres of forest containing "X" amount of carbon. You cut down one third to build your several hundred thousand wood houses. You no longer have a million acres of forest do you? Does not look like a net improvement to me. Simple math. More wood houses equals less mature forest. I'm not saying that wood isn't an "environmentally friendly" building material. I'm just not buying the idea that it is more friendly in a house than it is in the tree. Barbara Handley Eugene, Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 6 22:45:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20520 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:45:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24013; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:37:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:33:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA23757 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:33:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA23753 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:33:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip244.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.244]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA23670; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 22:39:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980307034640.00706024@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 06 Mar 1998 22:46:40 -0500 To: airtime@bendnet.com (Marti Croal), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: GBList: sick buildings Cc: achpa@dis.anl.gov Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2401 At 10:07 PM 3/5/1998 -0700, Marti Croal wrote: >There is a mold expert in Minnesota, last name Mac something, perhaps >another lister can provide it? He is known as "Mr. Mold" and has done >workshops around the country on the dangers of mold spores. This McGregor Pearce - St Paul, I have had also good response from: Microbiology Specialists 8911 Interchange Drive Houston, TX 77054-2507 713-663-7722 It would behoove the building performance/efficient building industry if someone would take the time to write a reasonably simple but correct procedure for taking samples (what kind of tape to use, costs for diagnosing spores, time frames etc..). best -- -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 7 00:44:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA24193 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:44:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA28610; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:35:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:30:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA27823 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:30:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27803 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 00:30:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip202.efn.org [204.214.97.202]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA03977 for ; Fri, 6 Mar 1998 21:34:41 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: Subject: GBlist: NW Slideshow Tour Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 20:58:14 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd4985$a2aa7500$LocalHost@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2402 Robert Bolman 888 Almaden St, Eugene, OR 97402 541-344-7196 Dear NW Green Building Folks, I will be doing my acclaimed talk and slide presentation, Natural Building and Social Justice, for the Seattle EcoBuilding Guild chapter on Wednesday, June 24. If I’m going to drive all the way up to Seattle, I would like to have my presentation seen by as many people as possible. I would therefore like to set up a tour of numerous NW cities up and down the I-5 corridor with presentations potentially both before and after the June 24 event. I’m thinking very loosely: Portland: June 18, Thursday Olympia: June 22, Monday Port Townsend, Bellingham, Whidbey Island, etc: June 23, 25, 26, etc. Seattle: June 24, Wednesday I would also like to present in: Victoria Vancouver Wherever else I plan on attending the Natural Building Symposium near Seattle July 1 – 7. I’ll therefore have the dates between June 24 and July 1 open. Contacts for environmental groups that would potentially host me would be appreciated. The following paragraph is from a thank you letter sent to me by Youth for Environmental Sanity (YES): "Your slide show was fantastic! It was unanimously voted the best guest presentation at our 2 Week Sustainable Living Skills Retreat July 20-August 2, 1997. It was fast paced, witty, hilarious, educational, and powerful. To get across so much information, and yet have it be so entertaining is a rare gift in a presenter. A gift that you have in abundance." Robert Bolman is a contractor and artist presently building an earthen and straw bale house in Eugene. His slide presentation, Natural Building and Social Justice, provides an overview of various approaches to alternative construction combined with a critical analysis of upscale housing in the U.S. and the poor distribution of the world’s resources. I look forward to hearing from all interested parties. Robert Bolman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 7 08:36:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA05500 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:36:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07446; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:27:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:23:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07169 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:22:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07165 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:22:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.201.43] (usr2a43.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.43]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA18587; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:29:12 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199803061533.KAA13626@amsterdam.interport.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 08:35:17 -0500 To: "C. Dodge" From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years Cc: "Greenbuilding List" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2403 I'd like to 2nd the note about the archives: they're a great resource! http://solstice.crest.org/sustainable/greenbuilding-list-archive/index.html If you have trouble keeping the long URL handy (as I do), just remember to go to www.crest.org. They redesigned the site recently, and everything is now very easy to find from the main menu! Also, seems like a good opportunity to mention that EBN is publishing a detailed review of the Durisol product (and an update on its offshoot, Faswall), in our March issue. This issue will be out in about 2 weeks. Yours, Nadav Environmental Building News The leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction http://www.ebuild.com At 10:35 AM -0500 3/6/98, C. Dodge wrote: >I lost yesterdays (3/5) three " Durability/framing for 200 years" >messages while doing some hard drive maintance. Since I'm deciding >whether to build with wood or ICFs, specifically the Durisol system, I've >been following this thread with some interest and I'm afraid I might have >missed something important ( you never know). Could someone be kind >enough to privately email me those three messages? > >Thanks in advance.. > >Best Regards, >Clarence Dodge >cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 7 10:25:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08977 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09822; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:12:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09604 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:12:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09600 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 10:12:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA01267 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 09:18:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from clv-oh41-28.ix.netcom.com(207.220.173.156) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma001254; Sat Mar 7 09:18:10 1998 Message-ID: <35016597.16FF7DBD@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 10:19:51 -0500 From: Jim LaRue Reply-To: thmi@ix.netcom.com Organization: The HouseMender, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: stachybotrys atra mold References: <199803070700.CAA01129@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2404 > The mold that has caused so much problem in Cleveland is stachybotrys atra. It was discovered by Dr. Dorr Dearborn at University > Hospitals. Talked with him yesterday about an abatement training program for area health and building inspectors this summer. If > you would like to know more directly, Dr. Dearborn's website is http://gcrc.meds.cwru.edu/stachy.htm. The things we have discovered > so far in the homes where babies died is that there was lots of paperproduct with mold on it, including drywall that was installed > on leaky basement walls with no protection from the moisture. Have also found heavy stachy concentrations under old bathtubs where > water has been leaking for a long time. We also discovered that we have a unique heating system feature in this area. We now call > it "the Cleveland drop". The cold air returns in most very old homes are simply large open drops that reach about 6" from the > basement floor. They are not connected to the furnace. When the furnace is operating, air moves across the floor to the furnace, > and, we guess, picks up all manner of stuff from the air on the way. My guess is that these drops are also little chimneys for > stuff from the basement when the furnace is not operating and when ventilation on upper floors is in operation. My conversation with Dr. Dearborn yesterday revolved around that controversial issue of whether duct cleaning is advised or not. Needless to say, having spent the last twenty years working on the rehab of older inner city housing, the ductwork in most of these houses is in sorry shape. Who knows what kind of stuff enters the ductwork through its many leaks. Reworking this ductwork is simply not in the cards costwise. If any of you have information on the issue of duct cleaning it would be appreciated. Am also working closely now with several medical and environmental groups in Cleveland on a Lead + Asthma project. We are attempting to locate asthma triggers in residential structures. To date the medical folk tell us that dust mites, cockroaches and mold are the three principal triggers in children with asthma. We are working on observation guidelines, specs and abatement strategies that can be piggybacked on the efforts of the lead abatement program. We are also working hard on some client education stuff to help raise the awareness of families experiencing some of these problems. Will be reporting on our progress at Affordable Comfort in May (The Roach Patrol is the title of our session). Have been following the musings on this site for many months. Looks like it took mold to drag me out of the woodwork!! Would value your insights as we address some real human dilemmas, the major one for us being, how do we protect the health of residents in housing we have little money to repair. Jim LaRue > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 7 14:31:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA15774 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:31:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19694; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:23:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:19:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19398 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:19:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19394 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:19:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.37] (ua4.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.37]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA02804 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:25:38 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:32:36 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Framing Light Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2405 >When I built an addition to my home, which also houses our office, I had a >chance to experiment with some innovative framing - the kind of stuff I >could never try out on a client without being the guinea pig. David, I like the details you tried out. Sounds like you do too. The thing that really caught my attention was the dillemma of trying out new things. Over the years, the researcher in me has always wnated to try new things and the builder in me has always wanted to reduce the chance of something going wrong. I can have a conflict when I'm alone in a room. I'd like to hear from others how they have struggled with these two apparently opposed desires. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 7 15:08:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA18049 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:08:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21191; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:59:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:55:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA20757 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:55:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20749 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:55:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.37] (ua11.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.44]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA10335 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 15:02:01 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2ec1fa2b.34fc18f5@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:58:39 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: durability/framing for 200 years Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2406 >Jorg asks: >>>Beside ourselves and yourself (and other listserve members, I hope?) who >else is designing/building for 200 years in North America? I believe >durability >is a hallmark of sustainability. It s easy to justify increased incremental >costs to offset 2 additional future houses << > >Jorg >I would guess that if you ask any builder with a conscience (how many that >eliminates is a guess, is that half full or half empty?) that they would say >the were building with the idea that their structures (as long as the >occupants put minimal maintenance into their home) would last as long as the >oldest wood frame house in "view" ( 250-275 years around here). >We would be kidding ourselves, however, if we didn't recognize that every >other generation the mechanicals will need replacing if only to keep up with >technology (I'm not talking about the fixture d'jour like Jacuzzi toys, >either). Well, I like this thread because I believe it's a core issue. So it does my heart good to have it come around and remind me. I'm prone to forgetting core issues. I've noticed that many buildings that get saved over and over again, are buildings people like. Building people don't like get knocked down at the first opportunity. So I make a pitch to design buildings people like. When they're designed so that they are flexible, it makes living in them and saving them easier. Along these lines, in this months EBN, there's an article on raised flooring systems found in commercial buildings (used to be called computer room floors). I like raised floors because they allow a lot of flexibility in messing around with mechanicals. The same is true for ceiling plenums. At their best they make it easy to move walls around and then match HVAC and electricals to the new geometry and use. At their worst, plenums result in energy, moisture and air quality problems. Some examples are: solar preheat of unintentional outdoor air in cooling climates, "mining" of soil air, air from labs, industrial process rooms, isolation rooms by the return side of the airhandler, humid air drawn into contact with cool envelope surfaces. The most extreme financial consequence I was involved in was a $1.4 million cleanup-up of stachybotrus atra in a ceiling plenum. By air sealing the plenum and planning air pressure relationships for each mode of operation, these problems can be minimized. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 7 16:30:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA20886 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:30:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24184; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:22:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:18:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23856 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:18:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23852 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:18:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.3] (blf3.acadia.net [205.217.217.3]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA28722 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:24:34 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 16:25:17 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Trees and CO2 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2407 Dear Folks, The following information is from several sources. In a "natural" forest, plants fix carbon through photosynthesis and store it in various tissues - stems, roots, leaves, etc. All of these tissues will ultimately die, forming detritus near the soil surface, which is decomposed by microbes and fungi. Normally, about 70% of the decomposing biomass is released as CO2 during decomposition (under aerobic conditions, but it is released as methane in wetlands); the remaining 30% (or so) gets converted into humus. Humus molecules (which are hard for microbes to decompose) get incorporated into the soil, and become the bulk of the soil organic matter. This ultimately becomes the "food" of soil organisms. Over time, soil organic matter (including humus) will decompose and be respired back into CO2 by various microbes and fungi. During this process, organic nutrients are released into mineral form for use by plants. Radiocarbon dating shows that some parts of the soil humus are *really* old, sometimes dating back as long as 10,000 years. When wood is harvested, however, a lot of the carbon is typically not allowed to decompose (either as detritus or humus). The longer the wood stays as wood (and not allowed to decompose), the longer you have "sequestered" the carbon from the atmosphere. One way to remove CO2 from the atmosphere is to grow trees, harvest them, and not allow the wood to decompose or burn. Some people have even argued that we should plant a lot of forests, cut them down, and bury the trees in the oceanic trenches where they can't come back to the atmosphere for millions of years. Of course, this says nothing about the long-term consequences of forest practices on the forest ecosystem -- particularly the soil. Clear cutting, for example, often disturbs the soil organic matter to extremes, and as seen above, soil organic matter also sequesters CO2 for a long time. Also, the reason we need to remove CO2 from the atmosphere is that we're releasing excess amounts of it from fossil fuels and concurrently reducing worldwide forest cover. It's like smoking three packs a day and snipping out your lungs piece by piece. Processing, kiln-drying and transporting lumber also contributes to CO2 emissions - in certain cases, possibly beyond the CO2 sequestered in the wood. (Have you ever heard about the spill at the asylum? It seems there was an asylum where the janitors sink had overflowed. Water was running out of the sink all over the floor. People were frantically busy with mops, trying to keep the spill at bay. These were the inmates. Finally, one of the staff happened by, and TURNED OFF THE FAUCET.) David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 7 18:06:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA24401 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:06:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA28751; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:57:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:52:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA28303 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:51:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28295 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:51:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.53] (ua20.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.53]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA16620 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 17:58:28 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:05:31 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2408 >It would behoove the building performance/efficient building industry if >someone would take the time to write a reasonably simple but correct >procedure for taking samples (what kind of tape to use, costs for diagnosing >spores, time frames etc..). >best -- >-------------------------------------------------------- >Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com >North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) >website: http://www.home-performance.org Hi folks, I've been in the field the last week or I'd have responed sooner on the stachybotrys issuse. My apologies for the long post, there's a lot to SA. I'm just going to jot down my thoughts in no particular order: - almost all species of microfungi have varieties which produce mycotoxins (a number of them, e.g. fusarium, produce tricothecenes like SA). Fusarium toxins form the basis of the US biological warfare weapon known popularly as yellow rain - although I've taken many bulk, surface and viable and non-viable bioaerosol samples for research and decontamination documentation purposes, I've never needed them to understand or solve a fungal contamination problem. This is particularly true of airborne sampling. If fungi are causing a problem in a building - somewhere there is a fungal mat you can sample with a shovel. Look for water. - the practices recommended for decontamination of SA by the New York City guidelines are generally what I recommend for any fungal clean-up because workers ought not be exposed to large amounts of fungal spores or hyphae. If identifying the species will not chnage the actions I take to deal with it, why take the sample? - the amount of toxin produced varies greatly depending on microclimate and substrate compostion - the CDC HHE in Cleveland found total fungi levels and SA levels higher in homes with infant illness than in homes without infant illness. This is provocative evidence of a connection between SA and the illnesses, but not proof - the seminal human SA poisoning case occurred in Maryland and was reported by Bruce Jarvis at the ASTM bioaerosol symposium in Boulder in 1989. The case is connectd with a very large exposure to SA. - there is a fair number of eastern european SA cases reported in the literature which are associated with huge exposures from contaminated livestock bedding - most of these cases are livestock eating bedding - I evaluated the moisture dynamics on a microbial contamination problem which had a small amount of SA present (mostly it was penicilium and aspergillis, niether of which are to be sneezed at). Contamination included two floors of an entire wing. The clean-up cost $1.4 million dollars. My guess is that at least half of that cost did not contribute to a safer clean-up or reoccupancy and was incurred because the occupants were terrified by the publicity given to SA - stachybotrys chartarum, I believe is the same as stachybotrys atra (many molds have different European names than American names. I notice the microbiology community has switched from SA to SC over the last two years or so. Many molds have different names depneding on what part of their life-cycle they are in) - I spent several hours this week in crawlspaces which contain several thousand square feet of what appears to me to be fusarium. I took some samples and am having them speciated to improve my own ability to recognise fungi. - if people are still interested, I'll post some notes on taking samples and getting them analyzed - Mac and I do this because we love the molds Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 7 18:22:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA24778 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:22:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA29836; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:14:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:08:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29372 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:08:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29368 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:08:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.53] (ua20.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.53]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA20036 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:15:13 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 7 Mar 1998 18:22:11 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: stachybotrys atra (chartarum) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2409 Sorry for double posting this, but I realized i sent it out without a subject, so I posted it again. Signing off now as the pause in the day's occupation, known as the F-up hour has enfolded me and I will only have to mend tomorrow, any work I try to accomplish tonight. >It would behoove the building performance/efficient building industry if >someone would take the time to write a reasonably simple but correct >procedure for taking samples (what kind of tape to use, costs for diagnosing >spores, time frames etc..). >best -- >-------------------------------------------------------- >Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com >North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) >website: http://www.home-performance.org Hi folks, I've been in the field the last week or I'd have responded sooner on the stachybotrys issue. My apologies for the long post, for me there's a lot to SA. I'm just going to jot down my thoughts in no particular order: - almost all species of microfungi have varieties which produce mycotoxins (a number of them, e.g. fusarium, produce tricothecenes like SA). Fusarium toxins form the basis of the US biological warfare weapon known popularly as yellow rain - although I've taken many bulk, surface and viable and non-viable bioaerosol samples for research and decontamination documentation purposes, I've never needed them to understand or solve a fungal contamination problem. This is particularly true of airborne sampling. If fungi are causing a problem in a building - somewhere there is a fungal mat you can sample with a shovel. Look for water. - the practices recommended for decontamination of SA by the New York City guidelines are generally what I recommend for any fungal clean-up because workers ought not be exposed to large amounts of fungal spores or hyphae. If identifying the species will not chnage the actions I take to deal with it, why take the sample? - the amount of toxin produced varies greatly depending on microclimate and substrate compostion - the CDC HHE in Cleveland found total fungi levels and SA levels higher in homes with infant illness than in homes without infant illness. This is provocative evidence of a connection between SA and the illnesses, but not proof - the seminal human SA poisoning case occurred in Maryland and was reported by Bruce Jarvis at the ASTM bioaerosol symposium in Boulder in 1989. The case is connectd with a very large exposure to SA. - there is a fair number of eastern european SA cases reported in the literature which are associated with huge exposures from contaminated livestock bedding - most of these cases are livestock eating bedding - I evaluated the moisture dynamics on a microbial contamination problem which had a small amount of SA present (mostly it was penicilium and aspergillis, niether of which are to be sneezed at). Contamination included two floors of an entire wing. The clean-up cost $1.4 million dollars. My guess is that at least half of that cost did not contribute to a safer clean-up or reoccupancy and was incurred because the occupants were terrified by the publicity given to SA - stachybotrys chartarum, I believe is the same as stachybotrys atra (many molds have different European names than American names. I notice the microbiology community has switched from SA to SC over the last two years or so. Many molds have different names depneding on what part of their life-cycle they are in) - I spent several hours this week in crawlspaces which contain several thousand square feet of what appears to me to be fusarium. I took some samples and am having them speciated to improve my own ability to recognise fungi. - we have co-evolved with this stuff for millions of years. Making places sterile is not needed, or, in most places desireable. - if people are still interested, I'll post some notes on taking samples and getting them analyzed - Mac and I do this because we love the molds Terry "When I'm in the desert, give me the green, scum covered waterholes, teaming with life. The clean ones are poisoned with alkali" - Edward Abbey ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 7 23:00:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA02110 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 23:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA07636; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:52:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:48:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07296 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:47:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from es.com.sv (es.com.sv [168.243.128.252]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07286 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from puchica (p1-1-2.es.com.sv [168.243.128.194]) by es.com.sv (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA01842 for ; Sat, 7 Mar 1998 22:02:04 -0500 Message-ID: <350232B2.2888@es.com.sv> Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 21:54:58 -0800 From: John McPhail Organization: home X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: removal from GBlist Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2410 I would like to request being removed from the GBlist. A friend of mine used my e-mail address last year and it appears was put on this "list". I recently have ´reconnected´ myself to a computer and had, since last year, maintained my account. My friend no longer uses my account, but rather has opened up her own account. I receive upwards of sixty messages in one day and none have bearing on my work. Thank you for passing this message on to your GBlist members. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 8 10:30:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17516 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 10:30:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21351; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 10:21:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Mar 1998 10:15:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20716 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 10:15:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20686; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 10:15:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA95660; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 08:19:43 -0700 Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 08:19:43 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: George Kamburoff Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver Subject: GBlist: another Power Outage? In-Reply-To: <34FECBBE.64DF@pacbell.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2411 re:"I read today about a large-scale power outage in the capital of Auckland, so if you do not get immediate communication, try again." _______________________________________________________________________________ George: Do you or anyone else have a copy of any newspaper report (or article) on the above, or any other recent power outage besides the "Great Ice Storm" in NE N. America? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 8 11:29:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA19611 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:29:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22835; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:20:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:17:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22583 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:16:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22579 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 11:16:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ppp-206-170-29-41.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.41]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id IAA22256; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 08:23:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3502C667.5C11@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 08 Mar 1998 08:25:11 -0800 From: George Kamburoff Reply-To: gkam@pacbell.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-PBWG (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Re: another Power Outage? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2412 Jorg, I'll look it up in one of my daily papers (I get three) and get back to you. The outage shouldn't have bothered the folks at Trumax, since they're actually in Christchurch, ( wasn't thinking straight when I sent the note), but apparently, the four cables serving the city failed. I can't believe that most of the city is fed from one plant, but the news story implied as much. I have been working on getting small distributed power systems produced that would prevent or ameliorate such a situation. It's slow going right now, but I expect it to accelerate rapidly soon, due to fuel cell and microturbine development. A year of so ago, I was working at getting fuel cell-based power systems into hospitals in Malaysia, because of their poor reliability of the grid. Then they had a 19-hour power outage affecting the entire penninsula. Unfortunately, we lost contact with Tenaga at that time, and many of the high officers of the company were replaced. I am still trying to get a little funding to finish commercialization of a fuel cell power system (not Ballard) for specific applications. Problem is, I'm a techie, not a businessman, so my partner and I make lots of mistakes. I know the US govt is interested in the distributed power system idea for its ability to withstand terrorist attack. If the system is supported by efficient, local production, spread around the system, no single act can take it down. I prepared a simple paper last year that was requested by White House staff, but haven't seen anything come of it. The most exciting thing about this idea is we can integrate photovoltaic cells into a building and supply our own electricity needs, storing the excess power as hydrogen, and produce electricity at night with the fuel cells. Once the system is built (and included in the mortgage), the domicile produces all the electricity it needs. You don't have to pay another power bill again. The only moving parts are simple fans and pumps, protons and electrons. Water is electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen using the PV electricity. The fuel cell produces water for the electrolyzer to start the process all over again. This can give us REAL sustainability, in the aspect of our lives that uses the most non-renewable resources (power) and produces the most pollution. And with the developing world eager to have electricity without the CO2 problem, the market (and the benefit to the Earth) could be quite large. Sorry for the long post. It's not an idea discussed much in this list, so I thought I could get away with extended babble. George Kamburoff ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 8 17:31:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA03024 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:31:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08462; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:22:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:18:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA08032 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:18:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08028 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:18:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.20] (blf20.acadia.net [205.217.217.20]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA23819 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:24:27 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:25:09 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Common IAQ Mistakes Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2413 Dear Folks, In commercial building construction, what are the most common mistakes made that adversely affect indoor air quality? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 8 19:03:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA06107 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA13377; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:55:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:51:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13051 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:51:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13043 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:51:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.107.9] (usrts4p9.port.net [207.237.107.9]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA26655 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 18:57:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803082357.SAA26655@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years ( Durisol version) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 98 18:59:13 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2414 >>>>C. Dodge wrote: >>>> >>>> I lost yesterdays (3/5) three " Durability/framing for 200 years" >>>>messages while doing some hard drive maintance. Since I'm deciding >>>> whether to build with wood or ICFs, specifically the Durisol system, I've >>>> been following this thread with some interest and I'm afraid I might have >>>> missed something important ( you never know). >>>RJMoore reply: >>> >>>I don't have them, but I suggest yo look into using hebel blocks, >>>envi-r-form, and other insulated form and aggregate block products. >>>Richard. >>C. Dodge wrote: >> >>Do you mean instead of Durisol or in addition to? >RJ Moore reply: > >I am against using sawn wood products for anything structural, Durisol >is a preservative? and a potential contamination to the occupational >health and safety of the building. > >Richard Moore. >CEO > Richard, I replied to you privately by mistake, sorry bout that......so I'm getting back on the list with my reply to your reply. I hope we're talking about the same 'Durisol' product. Your question mark (?) after the word...preservative.. is confusing me a little. The Durisol company literature states: (begin quote) "Durisol is composed of specially graded wood shavings which are neutralized and mineralized before being bonded together with cement" (end quote). I don't know the specifics of "neutralized" and "mineralized", but the end product sounds pretty inert to me. Is this just marketing lingo for a preservative suppliment and is it your contention that harmful contaminants remain after processing the wood shavings as described? Could you give specifics, please? Clarence Dodge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 8 22:07:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA10977 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:07:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA20737; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:53:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20290 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:53:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA20286 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 21:53:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA56216; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:57:47 -0700 Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:57:46 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: George Kamburoff Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: simpler small fuel cells In-Reply-To: <3502C667.5C11@pacbell.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2415 George:Thank you for your short essay. I have been looking into FCs for some time (for residential and office building applications) and have had several meetings with Ballard. If you have a simpler FC that does not require the use of a non-renewable resource as the source for the hydrogen, and we could use PV for electrolysis, then FCs have real potential and I would be prepared to investigate this some more for our own home/office. However, based on my research, discussions and actual looking at a 10 kW FC, the chances of malfunction must be very great based on the shear number of parts and the complicated technology for 5 kW electrical power (+ 5 kW for thermal). I hope you have something much more promising. _________________________________________________________________________ The most exciting thing about this idea is we can integrate photovoltaic cells into a building and supply our own electricity needs, storing the excess power as hydrogen, and produce electricity at night with the fuel cells. Once the system is built (and included in the mortgage), the domicile produces all the electricity it needs. You don't have to pay another power bill again. The only moving parts are simple fans and pumps, protons and electrons. Water is electrolyzed into hydrogen and oxygen using the PV electricity. The fuel cell produces water for the electrolyzer to start the process all over again. This can give us REAL sustainability, in the aspect of our lives that uses the most non-renewable resources (power) and produces the most pollution. And with the developing world eager to have electricity without the CO2 problem, the market (and the benefit to the Earth) could be quite large. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 8 22:46:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA12058 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:46:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA22160; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:38:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:34:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA21885 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:34:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21881 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:34:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.109.23] (usrts6p23.port.net [207.237.109.23]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA17827 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:40:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803090340.WAA17827@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years ( Durisol version) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 98 22:42:35 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2416 Richard Moore wrote: >If Durisol remains inert, and not harmfull, at any time, to our planet >envrionment, either during development, manufacture, use or reclamation, >then I would endorse it. You've got my curiousity up concerning the neutralization and mineralization of wood shavings during Durisol's manufacturing process. Does anyone have any specifics concerning these processes? John Straube.... any comments here? Clarence Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 8 22:53:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA12204 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:53:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA22568; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:45:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:41:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA22298 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:41:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [198.53.172.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA22294 for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:41:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from i2-65.islandnet.com [198.53.172.65] by mail.islandnet.com with smtp id m0yBtXM-000KuMC for ; Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:47:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:47:36 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: pmartin@mail.islandnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: pmartin@islandnet.com (Peter Martin) Subject: GBlist: Re: Trees & CO2 (Was: Durability/framing) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2417 On Mar. 5/98 P.Pierquet wrote: Studies of "carbon budgets" have shown that the process of producing, for example, wood studs, results in a net removal of carbon from the atmosphere. On Mar. 6/98 M.Sandahl wrote: I find it hard to believe that the production of a wood stud results in a net removal of carbon from the atmosphere. On Mar. 6/98 B.Handley wrote: I'm just not buying the idea that it is more friendly in a house than it is in the tree. On Mar. 7/98 D.Foley wrote: One way to remove CO2 from the atmosphere is to grow trees, harvest them, and not allow the wood to decompose or burn. I would be very pleased to receive details of and references for the studies mentioned by P. Pierquet and D. Foley. The above snips are not meant to denigrate the authors, but to form a framework for the following comments. The issue is complicated. There is no doubt that if a tree is cut and the wood incorporated into some long-lived structure such as a house, the carbon in the wood will not be released to the atmosphere for a while. However, most houses built from wood are short-lived compared to a forest, especially an old-growth, temperate-zone forest such as that of, say, British Columbia's coastal region. Moreover, when the tree is cut, the tree top, branches, leaves, stump and root (perhaps half of the total biomass) is left to decay on site with the result that most of the carbon is released to the atmosphere within a short period compared to the time required for regeneration of the forest. But in addition to carbon in the tree, one must take account of carbon in the soil, which arises from the accumulation of fallen leaves and branches, dead roots and fallen trees. Forest soil carbon is about equal in amount to that in the trees: more in cool temperate climates, less in the tropics. If the tree is removed by clear-cutting, a several-hundred years' accumulation of soil carbon may be lost to the atmosphere within a few years as the sun heats the previously shaded soil thereby greatly speeding the decomposition rate. Finally, much wood is used in short-lived products such as paper and tissue. This carbon can have various fates. Some is recycled for repeated use over a period of years; some is buried in land-fills where it may be preserved from decay by a lack of oxygen and thus excluded from the atmosphere for a long time; and some is burned or decays quickly after use. On balance, therefore, cutting forests causes a release of carbon to the atmosphere. To understand the magnitude of this release, one should realize that there is as much carbon in the forest as in the atmosphere, and as much in the forest soil as in the forest. Thus, large scale clear-cutting of temperate-zone, old-growth forests, must result in a substantial addition of carbon to the atmosphere. Most of the above from A. N. Burdett, Editor, Natural Science, and Publisher, Tree Physiology, personal communication. P. Martin ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 00:33:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA14603 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:33:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA26499; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:25:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:20:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA25837 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:20:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from november.diac.com (root@diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA25828 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:20:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.64.42.106] (p106.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.106]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA07487 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 05:25:55 GMT Message-Id: <199803090525.FAA07487@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Framing Lite Experimental Date: Sun, 8 Mar 98 22:27:15 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2418 On 3/8/98 1:00 AM Terry wrote: >David, > >I like the details you tried out. Sounds like you do too. The thing that >really caught my attention was the dillemma of trying out new things. Over >the years, the researcher in me has always wnated to try new things and the >builder in me has always wanted to reduce the chance of something going >wrong. I can have a conflict when I'm alone in a room. > >I'd like to hear from others how they have struggled with these two >apparently opposed desires. - Terry Gads, thats a good question. I think for me, I just try to stay aware, stay positive, and then do whatever comes along (life is what happens while you're making other plans). So in my next/current project, I discussed this very issue up front with the clients. Best to have very clear intentions. We decided to do nothing "experimental", but to do "leading edge" as long as it was "proven". Of course, experimental to some people is ordinary to some other people on this List, so specifics have to be decided, but by knowing my owners, I put myself in their shoes and try to define the terms in the manner they would. For example, composting toliets weren't accepted by most, but were by a few; that was sort of the dividing line. PV is in, magnetic and venturi water purifiers are out. An equally big factor here is TIME. Doing something new takes something like 5 times more of my time than doing something I've done before. It takes the subs only a little more time, thus, since I'm on a cost plus contract ... I don't make any money fussing with things. We put in a GFX on the last house; it took me days (sort of) to figure this thing out and explain it to the plumbers. They only upcharged a few hours to actually install it. A few years ago I was dedicated enough to work at night, like many people on this List seem to do, but now I'm not. With my current clients I could push the envelope further if I myself had more dedication and energy. On one's own house, of course, one can play around. Personally, I'm sold on composting toliets. But since I take passive solar, etc for granted, my fantasys don't have anything to do with GreenBuilding. I've always wanted to incorporate climbing walls into my house; if you can't do 5.8, you have to sleep on the living room floor. A rope swing to the office; beats a cup of coffee. My best idea (depending on your perspective) is to place a water slide right next to my bed that shoots directly into the hot tub - good morning! But due to time, energy, resell considerations, and being heckled by friends, who knows what I'll actually do. There are so many dedicated people on this List I am continually impressed. I too took notice of David's description of how he framed his office: real thought, time, and creative engineering. Actually, I was stunned, and considered asking him to come out and work on my house! Take Care, Buzz Burrell Bolder Building Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 00:33:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA14605 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:33:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA26503; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:25:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:21:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA25843 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:20:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from november.diac.com (root@diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA25831 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:20:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.64.42.106] (p106.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.106]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA07491 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 05:25:56 GMT Message-Id: <199803090525.FAA07491@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Steel Floor Joists? Date: Sun, 8 Mar 98 22:27:17 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2419 At a recent home show, I came across a company selling steel floor framing systems. There's been a lot of discussion of the drawbacks to steel studs over the years and I'd never thought of steel for exterior use (I've used it for interior walls), but somehow I never had considered the possibility of floor joists. It instantly seemed quite plausable. Quite smartly, this company only does floor systems. Just like for TJI's or the other engineered lumber, the company looks at your prints, does their own take offs with their own engineers, and sends you the pre-cut package (no waste). But then their crew also installs the whole thing, usually in one day, thus evading the problem of asking your subs to do something new. Besides being REALLY straight, they have less dimension than the equivelent strength engineered lumber, and no glues, possibility of molds, etc. In an added innovation, this company recommends a slightly improved/different house cross section when using steel joists. Since they can't be harmed by moisture (under normal conditions), the subfloor is kept 18" above grade (code), the joists are below that, and so there is literally no crawl space. This can slightly reduce numerous other materials by lowering the overall elevation. The subfloor is screwed onto the joists, and needed mechanical runs are done by unscrewing the sheets then putting them back down. They don't glue the subfloor to the joists, and insist there is no squeaking. The no-crawl space plan sounds alarming, but steel joists remain a possibility. I neglected to ask how well steel would work for other floors in the house, and in aspects such as attaching ceiling drywall. Their demo booth only showed it used on the ground floor. Apparantly, many large production builders are switching to steel joists exclusively. Any experiences? Buzz Burrell Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 05:10:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA21180 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 05:10:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA03415; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 05:01:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 04:57:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA03158 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 04:57:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA03154 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 04:57:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip28.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.47]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA161 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 05:03:51 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980309051427.006ab630@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 05:14:27 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Common IAQ Mistakes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2420 >In commercial building construction, what are the most common mistakes made >that adversely affect indoor air quality? Let's avoid outright fraud for the moment. Those cases should be relatively rare. The most common mistakes, to me then, arise from the immiscibility of optimistic design, sorry maintenance, and cheapskate operations. Whether you're dealing with cuteness (e.g., shaving provisional head counts to undersize the HAVC in schools), "forgetting" certain details when rennovating a floor for a second generation of customers, or completely lapsed communication (I once demanded an exhaust hood for a graphics arts station in our publications area to remove toluene fumes. Imagine my horror when I saw the installation: a 6x6 duct terminating in the return plenum), the problem boils down to two things: (1) driving a wedge between cause and effect, and (2) not talking much with their Momma. The notion of "extra cost" is the conveyance of item 1. It is easily argued that energy savings are separate from the health plan. "Filters cost too much can't we make them last longer?" and "It's a problem with the computer in Atlanta (or New Jersey, or some other place that's a long distance call) are working slogans. I guess it's easy to lose track of the role of the building when things go operational. This happens most easily to people who believe they occupy portions of the life cycle in complete isolation and immunity from others. Not talking much with your Momma is the broad cultural sin of less-than-plausible denial. If you talk too much with stockholders and lawyers, you come away with a long list of things you can get away with. When you talk with your Momma, however, you should come away with a list of things you should be accomplishing. Must be a lot of orphans out there. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 09:35:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA29122 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:35:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09524; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:27:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:21:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09252 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:21:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09248 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:21:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA05941 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:27:57 -0500 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-38-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.38]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA02878 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:27:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980309092643.006a57d8@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 09:26:43 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #105 In-Reply-To: <199803090700.CAA29362@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2421 Sat, 7 Mar 1998 Terry Brennan wrote: Re: Framing Light "I like the details you tried out. Sounds like you do too. The thing that really caught my attention was the dillemma of trying out new things. Over the years, the researcher in me has always wnated to try new things and the builder in me has always wanted to reduce the chance of something going wrong. I can have a conflict when I'm alone in a room. I'd like to hear from others how they have struggled with these two apparently opposed desires. - Terry" Terry -- I struggle with this regularly -- My internal innovator says "If I can't find a good reason for not doing things in a new way -- which I haven't seen done before -- and I can't find anyone who can tell me this is a bad idea, do it." I have several other more conservative voices that force me to examine what I am doing more closely. I feel good when I am able to push the envelope a little (or a lot) toward a better building. I am what I call a barefoot engineer -- I don't have credentials, I don't carry insurance, I don't have all the information on any topic, but I assist in system and building design. AND I go to folks who know more about something than I do when I have a question, and pride myself on not being afraid to say "I don't know about this -- can you help?" Recently we did a small school building with no wall sheathing -- Fiberbond gypsum board, poly, 2x6 24"OC, 2x3 strapping on a 45 degree angle 16" OC, typar, and 1x12 rough cut board and batt exterior. (Cavities dense-packed cellulose.) This allowed us to use all local lumber in the walls and avoid plywood. I couldn't find anyone who could tell me it wouldn't work. I think that one of the keys for this is to follow up. I tell people who want to work with me that I don't carry insurance, I do my best, I use current best practices and if they want to work with me they essentially agree to hold me harmless. However, I promise to attend to any problem they may have with my work as long as I am alive, although I will charge my going rate at the time. Without follow-up, how do we know if it's working? How do we know if we're doing any better than those before us? --- On another thread:someone wrote: >We would be kidding ourselves, however, if we didn't recognize that every >other generation the mechanicals will need replacing if only to keep up with >technology I have been operating on the assumption that the distribution system for the mechanicals may be around for a very long time, and that it is the driver of the systems (boilers, furnaces, compressors, fans, etc.) that will need periodic replacement. This is particularly so for hydronic systems, and, I would guess, for air, if the ducts are cleanable and the filtration system is adequate and adequately maintained. So we should be designing these parts of the system for the long haul. Boiler rooms and holes in the buiding for gasses out and combustion air in should also be around for a long time. Often the long-lived parts of the system are a good fraction of the cost, and sometimes most of the cost. Along these lines, I prefer systems that centralize, to the extent practical, the prime mover (combustion, refrigeration, heat exchange) so that as new sources become more practical, less of the system has to be changed. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc. Montpelier VT USA PS -- another plea for folks to sign with WHERE you are from -- I've added "USA" to my address, since I am seeing more international signatures -- Thanks to those who are doing this. Context may not be everything, but it sure helps. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 09:57:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA29741 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10397; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:48:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:44:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10067 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:44:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10063 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:44:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA13490 for ; Mon, 09 Mar 1998 09:49:32 -0500 Message-id: <2514937@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 09 Mar 98 09:57:05 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Re: innovation To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2422 My method is similar to Andy Shapiro's, who claims to be a barefoot engineer, although I haven't seen him barefoot once on a job. 1) I try to understand what I am doing as clearly as possible 2) I ask questions. 3) I am clear to the client about what I perceive the risks to be, and how we can fix the problem if it fails. 4) I don't try too much new stuff in each building. 5) I follow up. 6) I try the most far-out stuff first on myself! I've been incredibly fortunate over nineteen years to have never been sued or even threatened with legal stuff. And the only problem I've had is this: I have some clients for whom I designed a home in 1983 with a lot of roof glazing over a greenhouse and solar attic who have had to rebuild the glazing twice. It seems as though the principal reason has been frequent enough power outages during solar gain periods which have allowed the solar attic to get very hot, and the wood framing to move. I wouldn't build it the same way now, but I feel the problem has been stabilized by an uninterruptible power system for the blower. Next time PV powered blower. The clients have been a bit annoyed over the maintenance/rebuilding costs, but they have borne them. They have been very reluctant to pay me to help the fix so the contractor calls me with questions as he goes. I've worked with him for free but haven't felt good about taking a day to go to the site for free to work things out in more detail. My contract with the clients originally spelt out that the work was pushing the envelope and may need work to sort out after occupancy, which they would be responsible for paying for. I still use this language. This building, BTW, is a second home in central VT that never drops below 45F without any back-up heat. They have had the benefit of this performance for 15 years, which I hope offsets partially the repair bills. A conventional home in a location with as many power outages may have had significant freeze-ups in the same period. Sorry for the ramble. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 10:41:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01741 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:41:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12574; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:26:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11930 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:26:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11926 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:26:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA29529 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:32:08 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005A4F1; Mon, 9 Mar 98 09:21:06 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:30:24 -0600 Message-ID: <0005A4F1.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Framing and the environment To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2423 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:01:29 -0500 From: "Michael Sandahl" Subject: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years > Any cellulose-based material(wood, straw etc) is about 50 percent carbon by weight. Where does this carbon come from? From the atmosphere....carbon dioxide(the "culprit" in global warming) is REMOVED from the atmosphere and converted, via photosynthesis, to cellulose. Therefore, whenever you use wood material, you are effectively removing from the atmosphere, and storing, carbon dioxide. Studies of "carbon budgets" have shown that the process of producing, for example, wood studs, results in a net removal of carbon from the atmosphere. No offense to Patrick, but this strikes me as reminiscent of Ronald Reagan saying trees pollute. I find it hard to believe that the production of a wood stud results in a net removal of carbon from the atmosphere. If you can show me how you came to this conclusion I will gladly change my views and look at this anew. As I see it there is a tremendous amount of carbon dioxide and other gases produced to get that "wood stud" into a home. The people removing the trees from the forest get to the job site in trucks or cars, their saws (last I heard) are powered by carbon fuels, the equipment to drag the logs to the logging road are most likely not solar or electrically powered (and where do those logging roads come from?), the logging trucks definitely pump out their share of nasty gases, sawmills also add to this growing quantity of gas, as do the trucks delivering the "wood studs" to the local lumberyard, and the trucks delivering the studs to the job site..... Michael - Glad you brought this up. In the studies I refer to, all of these items have been taken into account, and the studies agree that building a wood-stud wall results in a net REMOVAL of carbon from the atmosphere. This research has been replicated in Canada, Japan, Europe, New Zealand and the U.S. If you're interested, I can put together a bibliography on this topic. - Patrick Pierquet ps: I'm not quite sure where you got the analogy of Ronald Reagan saying that trees pollute; they definitely do NOT do so! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 10:41:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01737 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:41:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12572; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:27:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11959 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:27:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from november.diac.com (root@diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11950 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:27:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.64.42.110] (p110.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.110]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA04011 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:32:21 GMT Message-Id: <199803091532.PAA04011@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Fuel Cells Date: Mon, 9 Mar 98 08:33:42 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2424 George and Jorg: Please keep posting info on fuel cells; some of us are quite interested. I'm the Project Manager for a small 8 home community. We've written into the Covenants that all homes must have PV power ... and be tied into the grid. Unless fuel cells or some other technology comes along, grid tied PV seems to me to be the way to go, now and probably into the future as well. Why? Because while the PV array itself and the various controllers work quite well, batteries are unbelievably antiquated. I think the technology for the batteries we use today was invented sometime in the 1700's. What's more, from an ecological point of view, when the battery is shot after a mere 7 - 20 years, into the dump it will go, including the assorted toxic electrolytes inside the cells. As George said, "Distributed Power" is the byword. This can mean that most every load (home) is generating its own power, BUT, instead of storing it, it is dumped back into the same grid. Thus, while the sun may not be shining or the wind not blowing where you are, somewhere else it will be. The grid becomes your battery. In a start-up ideal scenario, this may not be the best plan, but considering the billions already invested in our power system, this distributed power scenario could start working effectively anytime soon. This idea already has brought some major utilities on board; its not unlikely your gigantic, faceless, regional power company could be the one selling you PV panels. The amortized cost would simply appear on your regular monthly electric bill. This scenario doesn't satisfy the self-reliant person, but keep in mind, true self-sufficiency is somewhat mythological, unless one is very dedicated and very technologically advanced. Most off grid systems aren't self-sustaining at all; not only do you need to replace the batteries, but they also use gasoline or propane generators for backup. The current big issue in this area is in "Net Metering". If "Midwest Power" is selling you electricity at 8 cents/Kw, they would be required by law to buy back anything you generate also at 8 cents, instead of at 3 cents, which might be their wholesale cost. This is a critical political issue. Laws are being passed on a state by state basis for net metering; currently, many public utilities are obligated, but the REA's are not. If George invents a viable fuel cell, net metering might not matter so much. Buzz Burrell Bolder Building Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 10:47:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02002 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:47:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13198; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:38:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:34:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12689 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:34:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12683 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:34:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07670 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:41:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:41:07 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years ( Durisol version) To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199803090700.CAA29362@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2425 > Date: Sun, 8 Mar 98 22:42:35 -0500 > From: "C. Dodge" > Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years ( Durisol version) > > >If Durisol remains inert, and not harmfull, at any time, to our planet > >envrionment, either during development, manufacture, use or reclamation, > >then I would endorse it. > > You've got my curiousity up concerning the neutralization and > mineralization of wood shavings during Durisol's manufacturing process. > Does anyone have any specifics concerning these processes? John > Straube.... any comments here? I asked about the Durisol process once and was told, with a grin, that they could tell me but then they would have to kill me. So, I dont know what it is. It is not a chemical treatment like a wood preservative, that much I am sure of. The problem with wood-cements is that the sugar, oils and tanins in the wood inhibit the curing of the cement. This is the problem the Swiss solved in the 1940's and launched Durisol. RE: the healthy aspects, I can speak a bit more firmly. One of the goals of the research we have conducted for Durisol was to scientifically examine why it is a healthy product. That it is a healthy product is supported by Durisol's experience, and they gave me anecdotals from a hypersentsitive people who swear their Durisol house is a refuge for them. So, we did some research into the literature, ran some calculations, and monitored five full scale walls for a couple of years. Some of the results are in a paper I hope to present at the EEBA conference in Washington. Basically, the combiation of a moderately alkaline surface (which kills biologicals, just as lime does) and the very breathable nature of the product does not allow free moisture to be available for fungal growth. It also does not offgas nasty things. In fact it offgases less than the wood it is made from becuase it is the oils and tanins that make the wood smell nice (but causes some hyperactive people to react). Hope this answers some of the questions,as bizarre as these are from a "framing lite" thread:) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 10:55:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02403 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:55:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14544; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:46:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:41:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13708 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:41:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13689 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA29628 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:47:08 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005A4F6; Mon, 9 Mar 98 09:36:06 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:45:58 -0600 Message-ID: <0005A4F6.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Framing & the environment To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2426 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:01:29 -0500 From: "Michael Sandahl" Subject: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years Michael - Here are a few items you might want to check out....(not a complete list, but a good place to start).... Boyd, C.W., et al. 1976. Wood for Structural and Architectural Purposes, Special CORRIM Report, Nat'l Academy of Sciences/Nat'l Res. Council. Wood and Fiber, 8(1): 1-72. Cole, R.J., and D. Rousseau. 1992. Environmental auditing for building construction: Energy and air pollution indics for building materials. Building & Envir., 27(1): 23-30. Cole, R.J., D. Rousseau, and S. Taylor. 1992. Environmental audits of alternative structural systems for warehouse buildings. Canadian Jor. Civil Eng., 19(5): 886-895. Marcea, R.L., and K.K. Lau. 1992. Carbon dioxide implications of building materials. Jour. For. Eng., 3(2): 37-43. Richter, Klaus, and J. Sell. 1993. Life-cycle analysis: A useful approach to promote wood as a construction material. Wood Design Focus, 4(2): 14-17. Stein, R.G., et al. 1981. Handbook of Energy Use for Building Construction. US Dept. of Energy, Publ No. DOE/CE/20220-1. 171 pages. - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com > Any cellulose-based material(wood, straw etc) is about 50 percent > carbon by weight. Where does this carbon come from? From the > atmosphere....carbon dioxide(the "culprit" in global warming) is > REMOVED from the atmosphere and converted, via photosynthesis, to > cellulose. Therefore, whenever you use wood material, you are > effectively removing from the atmosphere, and storing, carbon dioxide. > Studies of "carbon budgets" have shown that the process of producing, > for example, wood studs, results in a net removal of carbon from the > atmosphere. No offense to Patrick, but this strikes me as reminiscent of Ronald Reagan saying trees pollute. I find it hard to believe that the production of a wood stud results in a net removal of carbon from the atmosphere..... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 10:55:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01741 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:41:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12574; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:26:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11930 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:26:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11926 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:26:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA29529 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:32:08 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005A4F1; Mon, 9 Mar 98 09:21:06 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:30:24 -0600 Message-ID: <0005A4F1.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Framing and the environment To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2427 Date: Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:01:29 -0500 From: "Michael Sandahl" Subject: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years > Any cellulose-based material(wood, straw etc) is about 50 percent carbon by weight. Where does this carbon come from? From the atmosphere....carbon dioxide(the "culprit" in global warming) is REMOVED from the atmosphere and converted, via photosynthesis, to cellulose. Therefore, whenever you use wood material, you are effectively removing from the atmosphere, and storing, carbon dioxide. Studies of "carbon budgets" have shown that the process of producing, for example, wood studs, results in a net removal of carbon from the atmosphere. No offense to Patrick, but this strikes me as reminiscent of Ronald Reagan saying trees pollute. I find it hard to believe that the production of a wood stud results in a net removal of carbon from the atmosphere. If you can show me how you came to this conclusion I will gladly change my views and look at this anew. As I see it there is a tremendous amount of carbon dioxide and other gases produced to get that "wood stud" into a home. The people removing the trees from the forest get to the job site in trucks or cars, their saws (last I heard) are powered by carbon fuels, the equipment to drag the logs to the logging road are most likely not solar or electrically powered (and where do those logging roads come from?), the logging trucks definitely pump out their share of nasty gases, sawmills also add to this growing quantity of gas, as do the trucks delivering the "wood studs" to the local lumberyard, and the trucks delivering the studs to the job site..... Michael - Glad you brought this up. In the studies I refer to, all of these items have been taken into account, and the studies agree that building a wood-stud wall results in a net REMOVAL of carbon from the atmosphere. This research has been replicated in Canada, Japan, Europe, New Zealand and the U.S. If you're interested, I can put together a bibliography on this topic. - Patrick Pierquet ps: I'm not quite sure where you got the analogy of Ronald Reagan saying that trees pollute; they definitely do NOT do so! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 10:55:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01737 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:41:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12572; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:27:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11959 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:27:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from november.diac.com (root@diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11950 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:27:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.64.42.110] (p110.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.110]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA04011 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:32:21 GMT Message-Id: <199803091532.PAA04011@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Fuel Cells Date: Mon, 9 Mar 98 08:33:42 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2428 George and Jorg: Please keep posting info on fuel cells; some of us are quite interested. I'm the Project Manager for a small 8 home community. We've written into the Covenants that all homes must have PV power ... and be tied into the grid. Unless fuel cells or some other technology comes along, grid tied PV seems to me to be the way to go, now and probably into the future as well. Why? Because while the PV array itself and the various controllers work quite well, batteries are unbelievably antiquated. I think the technology for the batteries we use today was invented sometime in the 1700's. What's more, from an ecological point of view, when the battery is shot after a mere 7 - 20 years, into the dump it will go, including the assorted toxic electrolytes inside the cells. As George said, "Distributed Power" is the byword. This can mean that most every load (home) is generating its own power, BUT, instead of storing it, it is dumped back into the same grid. Thus, while the sun may not be shining or the wind not blowing where you are, somewhere else it will be. The grid becomes your battery. In a start-up ideal scenario, this may not be the best plan, but considering the billions already invested in our power system, this distributed power scenario could start working effectively anytime soon. This idea already has brought some major utilities on board; its not unlikely your gigantic, faceless, regional power company could be the one selling you PV panels. The amortized cost would simply appear on your regular monthly electric bill. This scenario doesn't satisfy the self-reliant person, but keep in mind, true self-sufficiency is somewhat mythological, unless one is very dedicated and very technologically advanced. Most off grid systems aren't self-sustaining at all; not only do you need to replace the batteries, but they also use gasoline or propane generators for backup. The current big issue in this area is in "Net Metering". If "Midwest Power" is selling you electricity at 8 cents/Kw, they would be required by law to buy back anything you generate also at 8 cents, instead of at 3 cents, which might be their wholesale cost. This is a critical political issue. Laws are being passed on a state by state basis for net metering; currently, many public utilities are obligated, but the REA's are not. If George invents a viable fuel cell, net metering might not matter so much. Buzz Burrell Bolder Building Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 10:59:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02569 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:59:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14994; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:51:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:47:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14567 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:46:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14557 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:46:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA29680 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:52:09 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005A4F8; Mon, 9 Mar 98 09:41:07 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 09:50:59 -0600 Message-ID: <0005A4F8.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Framing & trees, etc To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2429 Date: Fri, 06 Mar 98 19:01:29 PST From: "Clan Handley" Subject: GBlist: 1,000,000 minus 600,000 equals 1,600,000??? > > Also, think of it this way: If a million acres of forest contain "X" > amount of carbon, then a million acres of forest PLUS several hundred > thousand wood houses are storing "X-plus" amount of carbon. Simple > math. Let's try some different "simple math". You have a million acres of forest containing "X" amount of carbon. You cut down one third to build your several hundred thousand wood houses. You no longer have a million acres of forest do you? Does not look like a net improvement to me. Simple math. More wood houses equals less mature forest......... Barbara - The assumption I made which was apparently not clear, was that forests are renewable, they grow back after being cut. So, cut a stand of trees and make them into houses, regenerate the site, voila!, a new stand of trees! Also, research has shown that young, vigorously-growing trees "fix" more carbon than old, slow-growing trees. Hope this clarification helps. - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 11:14:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03024 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:14:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16017; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:05:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:01:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA15634 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:01:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15630 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:01:24 -0500 (EST) From: healthyp@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA22756 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:07:11 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:07:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from grc-ny19-22.ix.netcom.com(206.214.143.182) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma022715; Mon Mar 9 10:06:34 1998 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-Id: <199839111541241@> Subject: GBlist: GE microwaves X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.25, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2430 My company is in the process of building our kitchen as environmentally correct and energy efficient as possible. In staying with this theme, we have chosen a General Electric microwave, because of its efficient use of energy. Lately, we have come across some criticism of this choice due to the boycott of GE due to some thing related to their stand on nuclear power. Does anyone have any information about this boycott, if it is valid, and if it is, does anyone know of any other microwave that is just as energy efficient? Thank you, Robyn Heller EcoSmart Healthy Properties ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 11:39:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03847 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:39:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17334; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:30:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:26:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16880 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:26:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16873 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:26:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ppp-206-170-29-44.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.44]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id IAA08339; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 08:32:12 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <35041A03.3930@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 08:34:11 -0800 From: George Kamburoff Reply-To: gkam@pacbell.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-PBWG (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: healthyp@ix.netcom.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: GE microwaves References: <199839111541241@> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2431 Some people object to GE because of their boiling-water nuclear reactors and their involvement with missile-mounted nuclear weapons. george kamburoff ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 11:43:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03971 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:43:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17744; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:30:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17324 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:30:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17315 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:30:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ppp-206-170-29-44.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.44]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id IAA10764; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 08:37:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <35041B24.69F8@pacbell.net> Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 08:39:00 -0800 From: George Kamburoff Reply-To: gkam@pacbell.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-PBWG (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Buzz Burrell CC: GreenBuilding@pacbell.net, List@pacbell.net, Subject: GBlist: fuel cells Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2432 Buzz, I didn't invent the fuel cell I'm working with, but instead, found a successful design and am working on commercialization of it. Your scenario is similar to one I had written up once, where the utilities become the system integrators and we, the people, become the power sources. This should appeal to the power comapnies, since it removes from them the cost of designing, siting, financing, and building powerplants. Think of the battles with us eco-freaks that they would not face over thermal and toxic pollution, rights-of-way for transmission lines, and the other hassles. Instead, it scares them. The old, hidebound utility exec thinks it's his job to make the electricity, and ours to buy it. Most just can't change their thinking. When I offered to let a utility company develop the small distributed power system (instead of some competitor) to sell to their customers, they became hostile. As I mentioned before, the "guvmunt" is interested in the concept for national security reasons. The recent problems in Auckland and the national power outage last year in Malaysia are reasons why. If you are interested, I'll send a little writeup on this by private email. I feel bad about babbling about it here on the greenbuilder list. Other list readers, please advise: Should we take this discussion elsewhere? gkamburoff ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 12:16:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA05094 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:16:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19566; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:08:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:03:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19041 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:03:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19034 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.75] (uc10.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.75]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA10425 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:10:06 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:17:08 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: cfm50 histograms? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2433 Hi folks, I'm looking for cfm50 statistics for US housing stock. Broken into size or construction date would be useful. Seems to me like I saw new data in a journal recently, but a quick look through my recent Home Energy and ASHRAE broght up nothing. If you have references at your finger-tips I'd appreciate it, but I am not asking anyone to search thruogh old journals for me. If you can't answer this without moving from your chair, please leave the legwork to me, eh? - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 13:32:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA07351 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:32:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22948; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:23:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:18:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22573 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:17:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (rcpublic1.nahbrc.org [207.49.88.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22569 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:17:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM by rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ba034269 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:21:32 -0500 From: "Dan Cautley" Organization: NAHB Research Center, Inc. To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Terry Brennan Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:24:24 -500 Subject: GBlist: cfm50 results Reply-to: dcautley@nahbrc.org In-reply-to: X-Info: NT Mail Server Message-Id: <21213220305971@NAHBRC.ORG> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2434 Terry: NYSERDA was doing a project a couple of years ago, comparing measured leakage of NYStar program homes to other New York and California homes. The work was being done by Mark Modera at LBL, I believe. For information, try Bob Carver at NYSERDA, 518-465-6251, x242. And Max Sherman of LBL wrote a paper summarizing 12,000 blower door tests, "Air Tightness of US Dwellings", for the 15th AIVC Conference in '94. It includes area normalized and state specific results, which I would guess tells more about the programs under which the tests were made than about regional construction practices. Don't have contact information on that one, but probably available through LBL. I would be interested in any newer information you find. Original message: > I'm looking for cfm50 statistics for US housing stock. Broken into size or > construction date would be useful. Seems to me like I saw new data in a > journal recently, but a quick look through my recent Home Energy and ASHRAE > broght up nothing. If you have references at your finger-tips I'd > appreciate it, but I am not asking anyone to search thruogh old journals > for me. If you can't answer this without moving from your chair, please > leave the legwork to me, eh? - Terry Dan Cautley dcautley@nahbrc.org Phone 800-638-8556 x706 Fax 301-249-3265 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 13:48:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA07804 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:48:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24042; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:40:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:35:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23508 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:35:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc513.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23503 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:35:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from IEL#u#MAIL-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 09 Mar 1998 13:45:09 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 13:44:33 -0500 From: Arnie Katz To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Terry@dreamscape.com Subject: Re: GBlist: cfm50 histograms? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2435 Terry: Some recent data from a study we did of 100 new houses in North & South Carolina (reported in Sept/Oct '97 Home Energy): Avg. (Mean) Sq. Footage (Conditioned): 1992 (Range: 945-5020) Avg. CFM50: 2355 (750-5130) Avg. CFM50 per sq. ft.: 1.21 (.61-3.0) Avg. CFM50 per sq.ft of envelope surface area = .44 Hope this is helpful. arnie Arnie Katz Building Science Specialist Advanced Energy 909 Capability Drive Raleigh, NC 27606 919/857-9029 FAX: 919/832-2696 akatz@aec.ncsu.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 13:51:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA07895 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:51:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24393; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:43:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:39:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23913 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:39:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23906 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:39:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.105.249] (usrts2p249.port.net [207.237.105.249]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA22798 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:45:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803091845.NAA22798@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years ( Durisol version) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 98 13:47:07 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2436 >Hope this answers some of the questions,as bizarre as these are from a >"framing lite" thread:) Can I get away with a......... Framing lite taken to its ultimate conclusion...... excuse? Thanks John, for your usual knowledgable input. Aside from yet another not too bad increased cost payback ( 5-16 yr), Durisol is looking like an excellent alternative to framing given that health issues (offgasing and such) are not in dispute. All other building science issues ( R values, air barrier, vapor barrier, structural durability) also line up favorably. Clarence Dodge Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 14:00:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA08126 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:00:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24978; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:51:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:47:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24607 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:47:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24601 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:47:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.105.249] (usrts2p249.port.net [207.237.105.249]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA24662 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:54:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803091854.NAA24662@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing for 200 years ( Durisol version) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 98 13:55:49 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2437 John Straube wrote: >Some of the >results are in a paper I hope to present at the EEBA conference in Washington.. BTW John, I would be very interested in reading the above. Could you keep us informed as to its availability other than a trip to DC...... Thanks again, Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 14:47:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA09440 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:47:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27759; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:38:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:33:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27116 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:32:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from saclink3.csus.edu (saclink3.csus.edu [130.86.82.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27108 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:32:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803091932.OAA27108@solstice.crest.org> Received: from PC-ANTHRO-04.mnh.csus.edu by saclink3.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA236172330; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:38:51 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "PE" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:08:51 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Re: Framing and the environment Reply-To: sac28787@saclink.csus.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2438 > No offense to Patrick, but this strikes me as reminiscent of Ronald > Reagan saying trees pollute. > I'm not quite sure where you got the analogy of Ronald Reagan > saying that trees pollute; they definitely do NOT do so! Actually, Ron did say it, referring to the conifer exudation which in sunlight makes a haze that's esthetic if you have a sense of art, and polluting for those of the right who think if you've seen one redwood, you've seen 'em all. Interesting in an anti-govt fellow whose ranch, getting something like $600,000 in govt welfare for years, is now to be bought by penurious taxpayers at over market value. (Newtie the Grinch doesn't steal Christmas from pals.) Forest- or savanna-dwelling humans may have by now adapted to the haze, but will need a few more tens of thousands of years to adapt to human pollution, hence the sense in the Precautionary Rule. Pet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 14:50:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA09507 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:50:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28172; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:41:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:35:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27388 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:35:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27372 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:35:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14399 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:41:49 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:41:57 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #105 To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199803090700.CAA29362@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2439 > From: Buzz Burrell > Subject: GBlist: Steel Floor Joists? > > At a recent home show, I came across a company selling steel floor > framing systems. There's been a lot of discussion of the drawbacks to > steel studs over the years and I'd never thought of steel for exterior > use (I've used it for interior walls), but somehow I never had considered > the possibility of floor joists. It instantly seemed quite plausable. Interior steel make a lot of sense. I am not yet convinced of their environmental benefits, but, until we manage our forests better, I would consider using them inside for joist. One consideration: In Canada there have been some comlaints about the vibration of TJI. I know the problem can be even worse for steel joists. To answer this question, go to a house where the company has installed a floor, and do a hell-drop test at mid-span. Compare to wood or whatever you are comfortable with (for me it is concrete:>) > improved/different house cross section when using steel joists. Since > they can't be harmed by moisture (under normal conditions), the subfloor > is kept 18" above grade (code), the joists are below that, and so there > is literally no crawl space. This can slightly reduce numerous other > materials by lowering the overall elevation. The subfloor is screwed > onto the joists, and needed mechanical runs are done by unscrewing the > sheets then putting them back down. They don't glue the subfloor to the > joists, and insist there is no squeaking. What do you mean they can't be harmed? Crawl spaces are notorious for moisture problems with wood, I can only beleive they will be much worse with steel, just as for walls. If the crawl space is sealed and insulated from the exterior and conditioned, then steel would be OK. Your address says Colorado, so you likey do not have as many moisture problems as say, South Carolina or Northern California, but crawl spaces can still be a problem in your climate under the wrong conditions. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 14:58:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA09728 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:58:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29048; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:50:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:44:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28429 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:44:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28425 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:44:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (gl-ppp13.hevanet.com [204.119.60.33]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17605; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:50:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <350447B3.780E7759@hevanet.com> Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 11:49:09 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Patrick Pierquet , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Do Trees Pollute? References: <0005A4F1.1762@us.teltech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2440 Hi, Patrick-- Strange to say, Ronald Reagan was right--trees DO pollute. Trees in the Cascades create their own smog. I've seen similar hazes in the Great Smokies. Best, Mike Patrick Pierquet wrote: > (snip) > > ps: I'm not quite sure where you got the analogy of Ronald Reagan > saying that trees pollute; they definitely do NOT do so! > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 15:21:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA10353 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:21:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00508; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:13:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:08:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA29939 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:07:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA29930 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:07:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA146040; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:09:06 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:09:06 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: healthyp@ix.netcom.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: GE microwaves In-Reply-To: <199839111541241@> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2441 Robyn: We would NOT use any GE products due their grave environmental record throughout the world. There we would never specify or use anything made by GE. We also specifically avoided the use of a microwave oven in our demonstration home due to concerns about: 1) measured EMF levels, 2) reported loss of nutritional value 3) future trends which indicate they are on their way out. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Mon, 9 Mar 1998 healthyp@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > My company is in the process of building our kitchen as environmentally > correct and energy efficient as possible. In staying with this theme, we > have chosen a General Electric microwave, because of its efficient use of > energy. Lately, we have come across some criticism of this choice due to the > boycott of GE due to some thing related to their stand on nuclear power. > Does anyone have any information about this boycott, if it is valid, and if > it is, does anyone know of any other microwave that is just as energy > efficient? > > Thank you, > > Robyn Heller > EcoSmart Healthy Properties ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 15:45:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA10927 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:45:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02033; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:36:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:31:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01481 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:30:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.teleport.com (ns0.teleport.com [192.108.254.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01475 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:30:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from alee (pdx91-i48-11.teleport.com [198.106.154.153]) by smtp2.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA13953; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 12:36:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3504523D.144F@teleport.com> Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 12:34:05 -0800 From: A Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: healthyp@ix.netcom.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: GE microwaves References: <199839111541241@> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2442 healthyp@ix.netcom.com wrote: > > My company is in the process of building our kitchen as environmentally > correct and energy efficient as possible. In staying with this theme, we > have chosen a General Electric microwave, because of its efficient use of > energy. Lately, we have come across some criticism of this choice due to the > boycott of GE due to some thing related to their stand on nuclear power. > Does anyone have any information about this boycott, if it is valid, and if > it is, does anyone know of any other microwave that is just as energy > efficient? > > Thank you, > > Robyn Heller > EcoSmart Healthy Properties > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ Note that GE also took a strong position against the latest energy efficient refrigerator standards. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 15:54:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA11216 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:54:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02880; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:46:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:41:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA02315 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:40:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA02311 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:40:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from drucker.niehs.nih.gov (drucker.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.15.129]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA30126 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:47:11 -0500 Received: by drucker.niehs.nih.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:47:01 -0500 Message-ID: <8DD3D27DC6A5D111823200A0C955FB40168362@drucker.niehs.nih.gov> From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: GBlist: off-topic humor for listers Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:46:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2443 here's some forwarded off-topic humor most relevant to our merry band... olivia "How many mailing list members does it take to change a light bulb" Q: How many list subscribers does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1141: 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the list that the light bulb has been changed. 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently. 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs. 53 to flame the spell checkers 156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list. 41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames. 109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb 203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped. 111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mail list. 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique, and what brands are faulty. 27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post corrected URLs. 3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list. 33 to summarize all posts to date, then quote them including all headers and footers, and then add "Me Too." 12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy. 19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three." 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ. 1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 16:15:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA11804 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:15:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA04100; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:07:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:01:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA03750 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:01:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.157]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03746 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:01:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4LFQa21407 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:07:19 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: <29da2f6.35045a09@aol.com> Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:07:19 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Fwd: Cork Insulation Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_889477639_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2444 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_889477639_boundary Content-ID: <0_889477639@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII The following message is via another listserv. Please respond directly to bill_turley@intertec.com. if you know of any cork flooring manufacturers. Thanks. The building is in Toronto, but as you probably know, they ship a lot of C&D material (and a lot of MSW for all I know) down into N.Y. landfills. --part0_889477639_boundary Content-ID: <0_889477639@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay24.mail.aol.com (relay24.mail.aol.com [172.31.106.70]) by air28.mail.aol.com (v40.7) with SMTP; Mon, 09 Mar 1998 13:03:12 -0500 Received: from valley.rtpnc.epa.gov (valley.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.16]) by relay24.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id NAA07749; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:01:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from valley (valley [134.67.208.16]) by valley.rtpnc.epa.gov (8.8.7/8.8.0) with SMTP id NAA01370; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:03:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:03:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <9803098894.AA889461115@mail.intertec.com> Errors-To: jwhitehe@erg.com Reply-To: jtrnet@valley.rtpnc.epa.gov Originator: jtrnet@unixmail.rtpnc.epa.gov Sender: jtrnet@valley.rtpnc.epa.gov Precedence: bulk From: bill_turley@intertec.com To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Cork Insulation X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: EPA's "Jobs Through Recycling" Grants Network Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear JTRnetters: A demolition contractor taking down a large meat packing plant has requested some help. Apparently there is a large amount of clean cork insulation in the facility, and he can landfill it but wants to know if it can be recycled or are there any other alternatives. Does anybody have any ideas? Bill Turley C&D Debris Recycling 312/609-4241 bill_turley@intertec.com --part0_889477639_boundary-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 16:45:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA12711 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:45:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA05944; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:37:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:31:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05491 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:31:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05487 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:31:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA32416 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:37:08 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005A53B; Mon, 9 Mar 98 15:26:09 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:36:13 -0600 Message-ID: <0005A53B.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Durisol To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2445 F.Y.I., some info on Durisol......... Production of Cement-Particle Board Rybakov, D. M SOURCE: Lesnaya Prom. no. 4: 31 (1987). [Russ.] PUBLICATION YEAR: 1987 DOCUMENT TYPE: JOURNAL ARTICLE LANGUAGES: RUSSIAN In 1974, the West German firm Bison-Werke in association with Durisol AG. (Switzerland) began the manufacture of a cement-bonded wood particle board called Duripanel. After 2-3 months storage, coarse softwood chips are comminuted into 2 different fractions, one of which is used for the cover ply of the particle board and the other for the core ply. The particles are mixed with portland cement and water (wt.% ratio of 60% cement, 20% wood, and 20% water). The amount of water added may vary depending on the moisture content of the chips. A small quantity of chemical is introduced to the moist mixture. The mixture is then formed into mats and pressed at a pressure of about 2.4 N/sq mm. After pressing, the particle boards are clamped and the cement is cured for 6-8 hr at 70-80 C. The clamps are then removed, and the particle boards are dried for 12-19 days. The cement-bonded particle boards usually have a thickness of 12-18 mm, although they are manufactured with a thickness of up to 40 mm. The dimensional stability and rigidity of Duripanel exceeds that of all other types of particle boards. Other properties of Duripanel and its utilization in different types of construction are discussed. WOOD-CEMENT PARTICLE BOARD Dinwoodie, J. M SOURCE: BRE Inform. (Building Res. Establ., Princes Risborough Lab.) no. IS 2/78: 2 p. (Feb. 1978). PUBLICATION YEAR: 1978 DOCUMENT TYPE: JOURNAL ARTICLE LANGUAGES: ENGLISH There have been numerous attempts over the past 4 decades to produce a cement-particle board, but it was not until 1962 in the U.S.A. and 1966 in Switzerland that a dense board with good mechanical performance was achieved. The U.S. work was not pursued any further, but the Swiss company of Durisol AG. set up a pilot plant in 1969/70 to manufacture a product under the name of Duripanel. In the early 70's the German Bison-Werke Bahre & Greten GmbH. entered into partnership with Durisol AG. and the first large-scale industrial Duripanel production plant commenced operation in late 1974 at Dietikon, Switzerland. A brief description is given of the manufacturing process, and the properties of the board are discussed. Compared to conventional resin-bonded ''chipboards'', the cement-particle board has superior dimensional stability, stiffness, fire resistance, durability, insect and fungus resistance, and resistance to freezing/thawing. The density of the board is about twice that of chipboard, and its cost is between that of chipboard and asbestos-cement board. The board is suitable both as a cladding material and as a wall lining, especially in public buildings where fire regulations are most demanding. (1 tab.) - Patrick ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 16:50:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA12872 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:50:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06436; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:42:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:36:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05875 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:36:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05863 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:36:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA32494 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:42:07 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005A542; Mon, 9 Mar 98 15:31:09 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:40:20 -0600 Message-ID: <0005A542.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Durability/framing/carbon issues To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2446 The DOE has a rather thorough, though technical, summary on "Forests and the Carbon Budget", at http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/1605/gg97rpt/chap7.html In this report, they mention the contribution of forest products to carbon "sequestering"(ie, keeping carbon out of the atmosphere. They also have a lot of other useful info at this site. - Patrick Pierquet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 16:52:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA12982 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:52:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06607; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:43:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:38:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA06084 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:38:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06077 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:38:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip12.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.31]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA143; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:44:45 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980309165523.006b3530@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 16:55:23 -0500 To: Terry Brennan , greenbuilding From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: cfm50 histograms? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2447 >I'm looking for cfm50 statistics for US housing stock. Broken into size or >construction date would be useful. Seems to me like I saw new data in a >journal recently, but a quick look through my recent Home Energy and ASHRAE >broght up nothing. If you have references at your finger-tips I'd >appreciate it, but I am not asking anyone to search thruogh old journals >for me. If you can't answer this without moving from your chair, please >leave the legwork to me, eh? - Terry Hi Terry. Two places: (1) EPA's Exposure Factors Handbook has an *excellent* (co-authored by yours truly and Mike Koontz) summary of available tracer gas data buried in the chapter on residential IAQ parameters. The website address for the Handbook is http://www.epa.gov/ORD/WebPubs/exposure/. It looks like the August 1996 edition is still there (rumor has it that the final version will be posted soon). The stuff you're looking for is in chapter 16. There will be minor changes in transition to final, but as far as I know, the data stays intact. The whole document by the way (which greatly exceeds the heft criteria) contains a wealth of information, and is worth the time investment for downloading the 28 PDF files. (2) I have memories of our firends at LBL amassing all kinds of goodies in that area. In particular, Max Sherman had posted a good review article to his website on the use of blowerdoor data. Tony Nero had published an extensive online piece under the radon project to model national distributions of air leakage from real data. There was a pointer to his database site which, when I looked about a year ago, was overflowing with stuff. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 17:50:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14874 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:50:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA09362; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:41:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:36:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA08975 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:35:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08969 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:35:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA18803 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:42:21 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <8DD3D27DC6A5D111823200A0C955FB40168362@drucker.niehs.nih.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:33:49 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Oliva, off-topic humor for listers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2448 98.03.09 1730est ...I think you were low on the proportion allocated to me -2/-3'ers. oops, sorry. ;-> jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 19:41:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA19026 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 19:41:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA14215; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 19:32:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 19:27:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA13776 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 19:26:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from Fox.nstn.ca (fox.nstn.ca [137.186.128.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA13766 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 19:26:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ([137.186.37.183]) [137.186.37.145] by Fox.nstn.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yCCyf-0006ex-00; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:33:07 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199803092008.PAA29966@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:35:20 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Armand DeGrenier Subject: GBlist: fuel cells Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2449 please do continue this thread on fuel cells for all of us to consider ... this is my first post and i'm eager to continue inspiring myself with "ecofuture think" with all of you ... your clarity and focus is so refreshing ...thank you for letting me and all of us dig into our hearts and minds to clarify our visions ... right now susan and i are buidling a new home and are dealing daily with the balance sheet, heart visions and earth sensitivity ... thank you from an "ole clam shell from massachusetts" now enjoying nova scotian respite and simplicity ... in spirit, armand -susan ann morrison FON: 902-677-2243 (H) armand huet de grenier 902-543-9376 (W) " Our STORIES ARE our MEDICINE" FAX: 902-677-2315 nova quest health associates cherry hill, nova scotia canada BOJ 2HO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 20:42:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA21551 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:41:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA17431; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:33:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:27:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA16860 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:27:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA16856 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:27:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.38] (blf38.acadia.net [205.217.217.38]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA18707 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:33:53 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:34:36 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Re: Innovation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2450 I didn't think that Marc's post was a ramble. Nor the other posts on this subject. They were thoughtful responses to a great question - one of the best ones we've come up with! Speaking of innovation, check out the current Environmental Building News for an article on a well-designed, superbly engineered house done by Marc in Hanover, NH, which may be one of the most energy-efficient houses in North America. (This same house was in a Fine Homebuilding article a couple of years ago.) Well done, Marc! Tangent to the discussion about innovation: Marc, it must have been very gratifying to have clients who understood what you do, what you're capable of, and let you go for it. Sarah and I haven't been that fortunate. We know that we're capable of far more "greenness" in our work, but find that we usually negotiate how far to go - even with clients who are sympathetic to "Green". I guess we do a lot of "pale" to "medium" Green. So how does one interest the client in taking things further - sometimes into uncharted territory? That's one reason why I tried some stuff with our office - so I wouldn't be asking clients to do something I wasn't prepared to live in myself. (Ever notice how many architects say that folks should live in Modern or Posst-Modern "statements", but they themselves live in antique villas, bungalows or rowhouses?) David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 9 20:42:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA21553 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:42:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA17435; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:27:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA16887 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:27:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA16867 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:27:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.38] (blf38.acadia.net [205.217.217.38]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA18724 for ; Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:34:00 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Mar 1998 20:34:44 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Re: Trees and CO2 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2451 Thanks to Peter Martin for a very thoughtful post. Patrick Pierquet has cited studies to substantiate the claim that using wood for construction can sequester CO2. I relied mainly on communication with my brother, Jonathan Foley, who is an authority on the role of biological systems on global climate. In my orginal post, I didn't communicate some points very well. Peter points out that forest soils store large amounts of CO2, and that excessive logging can disrupt this storage, both by disturbing the soil and by removing biomass from the forest ecosystem. I tried to make this point too, but not very successfully. Another point I tried to make is that the reason we're interested in the CO2 storage potential of trees is because we're burning the carbohydrates stored in fossil fuels and putting more CO2 into the atmosphere than global bio-geo-chemical cycles can absorb. Reducing fossil fuel use - slowing down the spigot - is probably more sensible than trying to store excess CO2 - that is, enlarging the bathtub. But even if we ceased burning fossil fuels, CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere would increase if we destroyed the biological systems that currently regulate it, and among the most important of these systems are forests. I think the lessons here are that we need to use wood frugally, harvest it sustainably, make sure that it lasts a very long time in use, and that it goes into structures which use very little fossil fuel energy. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 04:53:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA06066 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:53:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA02999; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:41:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:35:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA02700 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:35:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA02696 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:35:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.91] (ka2-77.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.77]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id EAA14759 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:42:00 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:41:36 -0500 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Subject: GBlist: Source for Pressure-Treated Wood? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id EAA02697 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2452 Hello. I'm going to be needing some pressure-treated lumber in order to set my electrical service in the ground once the ground thaws. Having read the recent article in _This Old House_, I've no intention of using the conventional stuff, which is treated with ammoniated copper arsenate. Does anyone know of a place in northern New England which regularly stocks any of the alternatives? So far I've found no one who stocks it and no one who is willing to order small quantities. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 04:58:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA06178 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:58:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA03369; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:49:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:44:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA03084 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:44:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA03080 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:44:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.201.22] (usr2a22.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.22]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA12117; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:49:41 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199839111541241@> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 04:56:05 -0500 To: healthyp@ix.netcom.com From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: GE microwaves Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2453 In further support of Jorg's note against GE, we've mentioned in recent issues of Environmental Building News that GE is (was?) the last holdout NOT making an energy and water efficient horizontal-axis washing machine. Also, our article on lamp and ballast disposal pointed out that GE has been actively fighting increased regulation on mercury in fluorescent tubes, while Philips has used advanced technology to nearly solve the problem, and is supporting those reg's. Nadav At 10:07 AM -0600 3/9/98, healthyp@ix.netcom.com wrote: >My company is in the process of building our kitchen as environmentally >correct and energy efficient as possible. In staying with this theme, we >have chosen a General Electric microwave, because of its efficient use of >energy. Lately, we have come across some criticism of this choice due to the >boycott of GE due to some thing related to their stand on nuclear power. >Does anyone have any information about this boycott, if it is valid, and if >it is, does anyone know of any other microwave that is just as energy >efficient? > >Thank you, > >Robyn Heller >EcoSmart Healthy Properties Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsbile design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 08:27:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA12029 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:27:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07661; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:19:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:13:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07338 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07333 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA17262 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 08:18:27 -0500 Message-id: <2528293@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 10 Mar 98 08:26:01 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Innovation To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2454 --- You wrote: it must have been very gratifying to have clients who understood what you do, what you're capable of, and let you go for it. Sarah and I haven't been that fortunate. We know that we're capable of far more "greenness" in our work, but find that we usually negotiate how far to go - even with clients who are sympathetic to "Green". I guess we do a lot of "pale" to "medium" Green. So how does one interest the client in taking things further - sometimes into uncharted territory? --- end of quote --- I believe that this has been an evolutionary process as people see what you have done. Some will want that for themselves. I began in the late 1970s with a tiny house I made for myself - it was superinsulated before the term was coined, it was made of local materials, it had a solar greenhouse, it has passive solar and wood-fired heat and hot water, it had a small heat recovery ventilator, it had an outhouse then a composting toilet. By doing for myself what I believed in, I had an example of "what I did" for others to respond to. So I began to get clients with similar goals. This had held true through today - on a number of jobs where i have been interviewed among with several other prospective consultants or designers, the client choosing me has said, yo had so many more examples of what I want to do. Let's face it, green is in, so there are many architects jumping back on the bandwagon that they were last on during the passive solar days (and they still believe that the buildings they designed back then actually worked - I know, I've worked on fixing some of them!) BTW - when I sold that first house, I took a financial beating compared with what i would have gotten if I'd built a conventional house. As a result, I took fewer risks in my current house - no composting toilet (although this was partially because we had a small Humus 80 that worked poorly). To sum up: build it (and make it work) and they will come. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 10:24:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17270 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:24:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11673; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:14:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:09:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11190 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:08:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11177 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:08:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.34] (ua28.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.61]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA26940 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:15:27 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:22:36 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: fungal sampling Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2455 >Terry Brennan wrote: > >> - if people are still interested, I'll post some notes on taking samples >> and getting them analyzed >> >> - Mac and I do this because we love the molds >> >> Terry >> > >Please do Terry, I will appreciate the information. > >Thank you. > >Richard Moore. >CEO I'm a firm believer in sampling. I just like to sample when i have a good reason. If I'm trying to solve a problem, one of the questions I ask myself is "Will the results of the sample change my actions?" The answer is frequently, no, it won't. If I'm doing a survey to see what's there, that's a different need and sampling becomes far more important. If I have developed a hypothesis that I can test by sampling, that's a good reason to sample. For me biological samples fall into these categories. Bulk, swab, vacuum, slide and airborne. Bulk: I collect bulk samples by cutting a piece of contaminated material from the substrate and putting it into a zip-lock baggie. The samples get expressed to a microbiology lab that I know has experience with indoor fungi. The most likely error is record keeping. You have to have a good system for tracking what sample was taken where, when and under what circumstances. The lab can usually do a couple of things with a bulk sample: they can peer through their microscopes at it and identify it or they can take a sample of the fungi, dilute it, culture it and identify what grows. Culture media, temperature and RH are varied depending on what you are looking for. For example, some species are not very good competitors , so a media that favors them may be chosen if you don't want to miss them. If you're only interested in fungi which are opportunistic pathogens, you can culture at body temperature and greatly reduce the number of species you have to sort through. Swabs: I use cotton swabs in sterile water to swab surfaces to collect viable material. The swab comes in a little bottle, is returned to the bottle and shipped to the lab. The lab washes the material of the swab and cultures it to see what grows. Vacuum: To see what collects in or on environmental surfaces, I vacuum up a sample of material from one square meter of carpet or floor, collect the smaple in a cellulose thimble filter. Drop the filter in a baggie (label everything), and ship it off to the lab for the usual treatment (microscopic examination and culturing). My preference for the protocol on this is the Harvard School of Public Health protocol (which developed from a cruder experimental method Harriet Burge, Richard Shaugnessy, Bill Turner, Brad Turk and I developed when we were first studying carpets in schools). For me the ASTM carpet sampling method is uneccesarily expensive and complex. Slides: You can collect a sample of fungal growth and place it directly on a slide. I do it this way: Take a clean slide. Place a drop of immersion oil on it. Take a piece of clear, plastic tape (not the frosty stuff), make a loop between your index finger and thumb with the sticky side facing out. If it has a thumb print in the middle of the loop start over. Press the sticky part of the loop on the fungal growth you want to sample. Stick the tape onto the slide so that the immersion oil fills any air bubbles between the tape and the slide where the sample is. Label and place it in a slide shipping box and send to the lab. Alternatively, if you can identify stuff yourself, peer at it under 200x to 800x. You can learn pretty quickly to tell whether you've got mold, soot, fiberglass, fabric or paper fiber. Speciating mold is best left to microbiologists. Airborne: Airborne samples are collected through an inertial filtering process onto a sticky material. If the sample is going to be cultured, it's collected directly onto culture media (typically malt agar). If it going to be examined and counted microscopically it's collected onto something like a glass slide covered with petroleum jelly. One sampling method gives you results of viable organisms per cubic meter of air, the other total spores per cubic meter of air. The American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists has just released a new set of protocols for making and interpretting fungal samples of many types (replacing the 1989 set). I don't have a copy of the new set yet, but that's where I'd start if I were wanted to be on extensively peer reviewed, solid ground. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 10:35:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17576 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:35:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12343; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:26:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:21:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11922 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:21:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11918 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:21:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KxI21706; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:26:50 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:27:25 -0800 Subject: GBlist: common IAQ mistakes Message-ID: <19980310.102728.6622.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199803100111.MAAAA28505@r2.boston.juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-66 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2456 > > >On Sun, 8 Mar 1998 17:25:09 -0400 dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) >writes: >>Dear Folks, >> >>In commercial building construction, what are the most common >mistakes >>made >>that adversely affect indoor air quality? >> >>David Foley >>Holland and Foley Building Design >>232 Beech Hill Road >>Northport, Maine USA 04849 >>p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net >> >> >>______________________________________________________________________ >>This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >>Environmental Building News and Oikos > >>For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >>______________________________________________________________________ >> >> >David, > >I am just an interior designer, but since I work on related issues in >interiors I have heard some horror stories which I can share. > >1. After an asbestos abatement - the taping of drywall with asbestos >tape. >2. The placement of the clean air intake for mechanical system a) >over a > sewer or b) next to a parking lot or busy highway. >3. The use of unfaced fiberglass ductboard >4. Venting of special exhause systems directly into wall cavity or >plenum. >5. Use of high fuming adhesives and finishes. >6. Running mechanical system during sanding of either wood products >or >joint > compound on wallboard. >7. In a local motel project - application of viny wallcovering on >outside wall just before motel to be closed for 3 months (interior >vapor >barrier-major mold). >Also - use of flexible viny wallcovering and sheet viny flooring (more >interior than construction but may be applicable.) > >Beverly >Environs Interiors >Boca Raton, FL > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > >--MAAAA28505.889492295/r2.boston.juno.com-- > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 11:11:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18609 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:11:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14973; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:02:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:56:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14487 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:56:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14482 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 10:56:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.34] (ua4.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.37]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA09341 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:03:18 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:10:26 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: Common IAQ problems Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2457 >Dear Folks, > >In commercial building construction, what are the most common mistakes made >that adversely affect indoor air quality? > >David Foley David, The opportunity for air quality problems exists at every phase of a buildings life. I've seen failures in design, falures in execution, failures in commissioning, failures in operation, failures in maintenance, failures in remediation, failures during construction in occuppied buildings and failures in demolition. The most commonly seen by me: 1) Unintended air flows through the building structure or the mechanical equipment link a contaminant source to a susceptible population (examples: air flow down chimney spilling combustion byproducts - everyone is sensitive to CO; air from attic drawn through 12 inches of cellulose, through non-caulked top plate wire penetration, into return air side of furnace, delivered to space occuppied by person with IGE moderated response to newsprint - some people are allergic to newsprint; air leaving building through operating outdoor air fan on the 29th floor - fan overwhelmed by stack, bet the engineer didn't draw the arrow going out the intake). Unintended air flows also are at the heart of many energy, comfort and moisture problems. Uninvited, non-human occupancy and fire spread are related because the critters and the fire move along the same paths as the air. 2) Water gets in building, grows mold. 3) The mechanical system does not provide enough dilution or exhaust air for the use of the space. Examples: plywood over outdoor air intake; plastic over exhaust grille; storage closet turned into classroom; AHU mixing chamber for outdoor and return air turned into storage closet (combining source and transport mechanism into one convenient package); eight copiers placed in open office space; broken-not-repaired fans, dampers; hey-let's-put-a-plastci-injection-mold-in-here; hey let's cast lead shot in the basement. 4) Some really bad stuff got spilled. Kinda speaks for itself. Many IAQ events are immediately preceded by the word "Ooops!!!??" 5) Solutions to other problems. Examples: hey, I've got some industrial pesticide I can use on those termites; I'm cold and the unit ventilator is blowing cold air so I'll turn it off; storage closet exhaust breaks so just lift a ceiling tile into the return. Here's a complicated one. A large room is divided into two rooms - the old one and a little office. The wall for the new office puts half the supply and none of the return in the new office. The office goes wicked postive, the old part of the room goes wicked negative - see cause # 1 - unintended air flows... 6) The HVAC system never worked from day one. Examples: damper actuators never connected; fans never connected; old enthalpy controls; air conditioners located in 140 deg. attics; ducts not connected to (fill in your favorite); my-brother-in-law-can-get-a-ceiling-hung- heat-pump-that'll-do-the-same-thing-for-half-that. 7) Poor isolation of work area from occuppied building space. Examples: welding fumes; dust; concrete sealer; gas powered trowels, saws, generators. Well, seven's a good number. BTW, these and many others are covered in courses put on by Richard Shaugnessy (University of Tulsa 918-631-32990) all across the south. Bill Turner (207-583-4571) has a one week IAQ course every August in Harrison, Maine. I teach for both of them, so I'm kind of biased. Hope this helps. - Terry Lastly, when I wrote about the courses, I got a creepy feeling in my stomach - something to do with commercialism, and deeper something to do with an old family rule about putting yourself out there. I'd be grateful for thoughts on how others deal with these issues. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 12:03:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20047 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:03:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17573; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:55:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:49:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16989 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16983 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:49:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.34] (ua0.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.33]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA23620 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:55:48 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3503CA6F.91D@dial.pipex.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 11:55:13 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: mold and moisture content Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2458 >Hi Terry. At last, someone who seems to know something about moulds... > >Does your knowledge stretch to the following questions (which I've sent >to a number of research mycologists but received no answers beyond old >rules of thumb): > >For any of the main mould species, growing on an organic substrate (e.g. >wood or straw), >What percentage moisture content would typically be necessary for mould >germination? >What percentage moisture content for mycelium growth? >Does nitrogen content make any difference? >And where would I find this sort of info in the journals / >standard texts? >(I have no familiarity at all with the biological >literature, and the last time I studied biology was when I took my >O-Levels in 1975, but I am approaching this from a physics/engineering >rather than architecture background). > >Hope you can help! (but I can wait) > >Many thanks, >Mark Bigland-Pritchard Mark, Here you get to a question with a few parts. Here's my thoughts. What's important to the organism is something biologists call water activity. More or less, water activity is the amount of water in a material that's available for an organism to use. If water molecules get bound up in a material, they may be unavailable to an organism, but still be considered as part of the mosture content of the material. My guess is that this is the source of the hesitancy you find in microbiologists - water activity is not actually an intuitive concept - especially if you look at precise definitions. Some examples of stuuf. Bacteria and animal cells mostly require a water activity of over 99% (think of it as relative humidity of the material - the fraction of water the material can hold before it starts dripping). Bacteria live mostly in saturated material. People overcome this severe water limitation by enclosing our cells in a sack of specialized tissue (skin, mucous membranes). Fungi can deal with water activities down to around 70% Some species can deal with water activites as low 55%. Translating this to my observed experiences - when wood or paper stays at a moisture content of around 15% to 20% by weight for a period of a week or two, you'll have visible fungal growth. This corresponds to an equilibrium condition with room air at 70% to 85% RH (as I understand it, this is more or less the origin of the 70% room RH folklore). Moisture content by weight vs. room air RH curves are different for different materials, so the moisture content at which stuff starts to grow is different for different materials. For example, for gypsum board, the equilibrium moisture content in sheetrock at a room air RH of 70% is less than 5% MC by weight. I dripped water onto out-of-the-box ceiling tiles here a few summers ago. Indoor conditions 72 deg. F 50% RH. At about two teaspoons a day a visble fungal colony appears after three days. Once a colony is established, this can be cut back to one teaspoon a day - about one drop every twelve minutes or so. I tell this story for two important reasons - one, the room air was always below 70% RH; two, no visible water appeared on the bottom side of the ceiling tile. The wet spot could be detected from below by a moisture content meter. Paper and cellulose products appear to behave very much like wood in regards to moisture absorption-desorption. I have not done experiments with straw, which may behave differently. Nitrogen?? Beats me. I like the quesiton, though. For a good overview of mold in buildings I suggest Harriet Burge's article in HPAC magazine, July 1997 "The Fungi: How They Grow and Their Effects on Humman Health". The Pan American Aerobiology Association publishes a journal called "Grana". Another journal to look for is called "Aerobiologia". I'm not up on the British journals, but I'd bet there's some good stuff out there. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 12:33:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20865 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:33:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19149; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:24:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:19:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18810 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:18:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from slic.com (buzz.slic.com [206.25.233.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18806 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:18:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from barkeatr.slic.com (bombay-tty9.slic.com [206.150.84.73]) by slic.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.0) with SMTP id MAA24481 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:34:54 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: "Barkeater Design Co." From: "Barkeater Design Co." To: Subject: GBlist: cellulose retrofit Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:12:38 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd4c60$dfcf0620$0100007f@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002F_01BD4C1D.D1ABC620" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2459 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BD4C1D.D1ABC620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I would like to use cellulose insulation in a remodel of a old carraige = house with a beadboard interior. I have heard of problems with blowing = cellulose into the wall cavity and it leaking out throught the many = horizontal joints of the beadboard. Anyone out there have any = experience with this kind of problem? Tim McCarthy, Architect/Builder 35 Wellington St.=20 Malone NY 12953 http://www.slic.com/~barkeatr/ ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BD4C1D.D1ABC620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello,
 
I would like to use cellulose insulation in a = remodel of a old=20 carraige house with a beadboard interior.  I have heard of problems = with=20 blowing cellulose into the wall cavity and it leaking out throught the = many=20 horizontal joints of the beadboard.  Anyone out there have any = experience=20 with this kind of problem?
 
Tim McCarthy, = Architect/Builder
35 Wellington=20 St.
Malone NY 12953
http://www.slic.com/~barkeatr/
------=_NextPart_000_002F_01BD4C1D.D1ABC620-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 13:20:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22237 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:20:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21632; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:11:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:06:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21123 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:05:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21119 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:05:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa5-p59.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.251]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA15864 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:12:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35058162.3B21@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:07:30 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: cellulose retrofit References: <01bd4c60$dfcf0620$0100007f@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2460 Barkeater Design Co. wrote: > > Hello, > > I would like to use cellulose insulation in a remodel of a old > carraige house with a beadboard interior. I have heard of problems > with blowing cellulose into the wall cavity and it leaking out > throught the many horizontal joints of the beadboard. Anyone out > there have any experience with this kind of problem? You will have numerous problems if you try to blow behind beadboard; the board itself isn't strong enough to take the pressure required to insure proper density, the seams certainly will leak if you don't tape them and your finished wall, if sheetrock or the like is used, will conform to all of deflections in the foam. A much better solution is to have the cellulose sprayed in the open cavaties before installing the beadboard, this way you automatically insure sufficient density to prevent settling and you won't distort the foam layer. It further provides a visual assurance that everything is fully insulated. As an aside, I believe you may have contacted me several months ago about cad programs, I believe you were looking at SolidBuilder at the time. What did you choose? Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville,NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 13:49:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22918 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:49:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23881; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:40:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:35:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23106 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:35:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23085 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:34:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA05800 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:40:16 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005A5C1; Tue, 10 Mar 98 12:29:26 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:39:00 -0600 Message-ID: <0005A5C1.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Durability, framing for 200 years To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2461 For anyone who's interested, there are a number of additional studies showing that the increased use of wood products can help to mitigate global warming... FULL FUEL CYCLE CARBON BALANCES OF BIOENERGY AND FORESTRY OPTIONS. Schlamadinger, B.; Marland, G. Joanneum Research, Elisabethstrasse 11, A-8010 Graz, Austria. Energy Conversion and Management vol. 37 (6/8): p.813-818. 1996. Excerpt: "Forestry projects can, at least temporarily, mitigate the net flux of anthropogenic CO2 to the atmosphere by removing C from the atmosphere and sequestering it in growing trees. The net flux of C to the atmosphere can also be reduced if trees are burned to displace the burning of fossil fuels and are then replanted to recycle the C back into the biosphere, or if wood is used for products that store carbon and are otherwise made from other, more energy-intensive materials." EFFECT OF HARVEST OF OLD GROWTH DOUGLAS-FIR STANDS AND SUBSEQUENT MANAGEMENT ON CARBON DIOXIDE LEVELS IN THE ATMOSPHERE. Kershaw, J. A., Jr.; Oliver, C. D.; Hinckley, T. M. Faculty of Forestry, University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB E3B 6C2, Canada. Journal of Sustainable Forestry vol. 1 (1): p.61-77 Publication Year: 1993 Excerpt: "Using wood as a substitute for other materials (brick, aluminium, and plastic) dramatically reduces CO2 released to the atmosphere" THE IMPORTANCE OF WOOD UTILIZATION FOR THE CO2 BUDGET. Original Title: Die Bedeutung der Holznutzung fur den CO2-Haushalt. Brandl, H. Forstliche Versuchs- und Forschungsanstalt Baden-Wurttemberg, Freiburg, Germany. AFZ/Der Wald, Allgemeine Forst Zeitschrift fur Waldwirtschaft und Umweltvorsorge vol. 51 (10): p.573-576 Publication Year: 1996 Language: German Excerpt: "A quantitative carbon budget is produced for the forests of Baden-Wurttemberg, Germany, showing the various possibilities of reducing CO2 by forestry and wood utilization. The CO2 budget in virgin forests and managed forests is compared, CO2 storage in defined forest products and per hectare of forest is quantified,..... The analysis shows that forestry with intensive wood utilization is a highly efficient way of achieving CO2 reductions." CONVERTING TERRESTRIAL ECOSYSTEMS FROM SOURCES TO SINKS OF CARBON. Houghton, R. A. Woods Hole Research Center, P.O. Box 296, Woods Hole, MA 02543, USA. Ambio vol. 25 (4): p.267-272 Publication Year: 1996 Excerpt: "It may be possible to sequester carbon in forests and forest products,.... Management practices that could change this release of terrestrial carbon to an accumulation include (i)a halt to deforestation; (ii)an expansion in the land area of forests; (iii)an increase in the stocks of carbon in existing forests; (iv)MORE EFFICIENT HARVEST AND GREATER USE OF WOOD IN LONG-LASTING PRODUCTS; and (v)the substitution of wood fuels for fossil fuels." (my emphasis) MITIGATION OF CARBON EMISSIONS TO THE ATMOSPHERE BY FOREST MANAGEMENT. Brown, S.; Sathaye, J.; Cannell, M.; Kauppi, P. E. US Environmental Protection Agency, National Health and Environmental Effects Research Laboratory, Western Ecology Division, 200 SW 35th St, Corvallis, OR 97333, USA. Commonwealth Forestry Review vol. 75 (1): p.80-91, 109, 111-112 Publication Year: 1996 Excerpt: "The goal of this paper is to present the current state of understanding of the potential for managing forests to mitigate CO2 emissions. There are basically 3 categories of promising forestry practices that promote sound management of forests and at the same time conserve sequester carbon (C): (1) management for conservation of existing C pools through slowing deforestation, changing harvesting regimes and protecting forests from disturbances; (2) management for expanding C storage by increasing the area and/or C density of native forests, plantations and agroforestry systems and/or in wood products; and (3) management for substitution by INCREASING THE TRANSFER FOR FOREST BIOMASS CARBON INTO PRODUCTS, SUCH AS BIOFUELS AND LONG-LIVED WOOD PRODUCTS, that can be used instead of ossil-fuel based products." (my emphasis) CARBON STORAGE IN LAKE STATES ASPEN ECOSYSTEMS. Alban, D.H. Perala, D.A. USDA Forest Service, North Central Forest Experiment Station, Grand Rapids, MN Ottawa, Ont. : National Research Council of Canada. Canadian journal of forest research = Revue canadienne de recherche forestiere. Aug 1992. v. 22 (8) p. 1107-1110. Excerpt: "Total ecosystem carbon in the soil and vegetation was measured for a range of aspen (Populus tremuloides Michx.) ecosystems, including a chronosequence on the same soil ranging in age from 0 to 80 years. Soil carbon stayed relatively constant throughout the stand's life and was not affected by timber harvesting. Changes in ecosystem carbon closely paralleled the changes in standing biomass. ASPEN GROWN ON 40-YEAR ROTATIONS ON GOOD SOILS WILL SEQUESTER SEVERAL TIMES AS MUCH CARBON PER YEAR AS OLD-GROWTH FORESTS." (my emphasis. Note: Aspen is the primary species used in the Midwest to produce OSB) GREENHOUSE FACT AND FICTION (global warming impact on environment) Sampson, Neil American Forests, v95, n7&8, p6(2) July-August, 1989 Excerpt: "If someone gave us an area of forest land and told us to manage it for maximum beneficial greenhouse impact, our strategy would be something like the following: 1) Manage the trees to encourage maximum growth rates. (It is the growth of trees that converts carbon dioxide into sugars, cellulose, and oxygen. Building up biomass through growth is what results in net reduction of atmospheric carbon dioxide.) 2) As trees approach maturity and growth slows or stops, harvest them in a way that minimizes damage to topsoil and maximizes growth of the next crop of trees. 3) CONVERT AS MUCH OF EACH TREE AS POSSIBLE INTO PRODUCTS WITH A LONG STORAGE LIFE, such as structural building materials, and use the rest as fuel. (The latter use releases carbon dioxide back to the atmosphere, but since it replaces the use of fossil fuels, it represents recycling rather than a new net carbon addition to the atmosphere.) 4) Spread the ashes from burning the wood for fuel back on the land to help recycle nutrients; replant the land with the fastest-growing trees best adapted to the site, and start the management cycle over again. If that prescription sounds too much like modern industrial forestry to suit your taste, look at it again. It wasn't intended to justify any particular type of land management or maximize all forest values-it simply focuses on creating maximum biomass and using that biomass in ways that reduce or constrain the buildup of atmospheric carbon dioxide. The truth is that in terms of favorable impact on the greenhouse effect, modern industrial forestry works pretty well. If we had more acres of forest, managed better, the atmosphere and the environment would be improved. THE KEY FACTORS ARE: FAST TIMBER GROWTH, CONVERSION OF THE WOOD INTO LONG-LASTING, USEFUL PRODUCTS, AND RAPID REFORESTATION AND REGROWTH." (my emphasis) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 13:48:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22885 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:48:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23698; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:39:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:34:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23003 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:33:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22997 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:33:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip71.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.71]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA07426; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:40:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980310184743.006eb9b0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:47:43 -0500 To: Terry Brennan , greenbuilding From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: cfm50 histograms? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2462 At 12:17 PM 3/9/1998 -0500, Terry Brennan wrote: >Hi folks, > >I'm looking for cfm50 statistics for US housing stock. Terry - As the Long Island coordinator for most of NY-Stars' life - most builders had initial problems with getting their 1st house to the less than the 7 ACH/50 pascal guideline, but subsequent jobs generally came in closer to 5 ACH/50. When NY-Star & NYSERDA started the incentive project to change to a 3ACH/50 pascal requirement - every builder had trouble getting their houses that tight. With one exception every builder involved in the NYSERDA project dropped out of the NY-Star program. I have not seen the NYSERDA/LBL study that Dan Cautley mentioned - although when ADM Associates did an evaluation study for LILCO, the two sets of sample-frame houses to which NY-Star house were compared did not have any blower door numbers. ADM assumed 8.5 ACH/50 and averaged the 5 NY-Star homes (avg. 1771 sf) in the study at 4.3 ACH/50. NY-Star homes were calculated to be 18% more efficient than LILCOs' 'DSM participant' group (six homes - avg. 2529 sf) & 38% more efficient than the 'normal construction' group (four homes - avg. 1874 sf). I do a lot of blower door testing and w/o getting up from my chair, 60% of 'normal' new construction houses on LI are between 8 - 11 ACH/50. It almost always depends on whether there is ductwork in the house - with ductwork and serious overhang/soffit connections can go as high as 35 ACH/50. Occasionally (<3%) I'll get a new house that's <5 ACH. We also see heating and/or cooling systems that are 2 to 3 times oversized, poorly installed insulation (100% f/g batts), nonexistent or dysfunctional ventilation systems - so while there may be lots to do, the biggest problem is where to start fixing what. The renovation work is not much better - it's amazing what a new cathedral ceilinged kitchen or family room can to the performance of a 100 year old house. PS: Thanks for your fungal sampling procedures. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 13:43:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22787 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:43:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22929; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:32:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:27:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22537 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:27:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22533 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:27:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa5-p59.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.251]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA21795 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:33:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35058668.EF8@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:28:56 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Yikes!!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2463 Tim, Imagine my chagrin, when I reread your post and my response, I realized I most likely misunderstood the nature of your project. You are probably faced with already installed T&G pine, center bead boards and therefore my above recommendations will not help you in the least. Having been in the insulation business in a former life, I have had to blow just the kind of job I now think I envision. The answer in my experience is it can be done and depending upon how tight the boards are, some will definitely leak through. Where are your access hole, inside or out? If the are on the outside, temporary sheets of the other beadboard, can be propped tightly against the interior surface being worked on and then moved on to the next section. This will reduce the blow through and provide enough resistance to achieve proper density. Once in place and packed correctly, you should have virtually no leakage. If you have some totally other circumstance, describe it and I'll take another whack at it. Ever undaunted, Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 14:57:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22787 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:43:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22929; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:32:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:27:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22537 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:27:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22533 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:27:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa5-p59.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.251]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA21795 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:33:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35058668.EF8@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:28:56 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Yikes!!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2464 Tim, Imagine my chagrin, when I reread your post and my response, I realized I most likely misunderstood the nature of your project. You are probably faced with already installed T&G pine, center bead boards and therefore my above recommendations will not help you in the least. Having been in the insulation business in a former life, I have had to blow just the kind of job I now think I envision. The answer in my experience is it can be done and depending upon how tight the boards are, some will definitely leak through. Where are your access hole, inside or out? If the are on the outside, temporary sheets of the other beadboard, can be propped tightly against the interior surface being worked on and then moved on to the next section. This will reduce the blow through and provide enough resistance to achieve proper density. Once in place and packed correctly, you should have virtually no leakage. If you have some totally other circumstance, describe it and I'll take another whack at it. Ever undaunted, Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 14:57:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22885 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:48:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23698; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:39:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:34:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23003 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:33:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22997 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:33:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip71.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.71]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA07426; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:40:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980310184743.006eb9b0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:47:43 -0500 To: Terry Brennan , greenbuilding From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: cfm50 histograms? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2465 At 12:17 PM 3/9/1998 -0500, Terry Brennan wrote: >Hi folks, > >I'm looking for cfm50 statistics for US housing stock. Terry - As the Long Island coordinator for most of NY-Stars' life - most builders had initial problems with getting their 1st house to the less than the 7 ACH/50 pascal guideline, but subsequent jobs generally came in closer to 5 ACH/50. When NY-Star & NYSERDA started the incentive project to change to a 3ACH/50 pascal requirement - every builder had trouble getting their houses that tight. With one exception every builder involved in the NYSERDA project dropped out of the NY-Star program. I have not seen the NYSERDA/LBL study that Dan Cautley mentioned - although when ADM Associates did an evaluation study for LILCO, the two sets of sample-frame houses to which NY-Star house were compared did not have any blower door numbers. ADM assumed 8.5 ACH/50 and averaged the 5 NY-Star homes (avg. 1771 sf) in the study at 4.3 ACH/50. NY-Star homes were calculated to be 18% more efficient than LILCOs' 'DSM participant' group (six homes - avg. 2529 sf) & 38% more efficient than the 'normal construction' group (four homes - avg. 1874 sf). I do a lot of blower door testing and w/o getting up from my chair, 60% of 'normal' new construction houses on LI are between 8 - 11 ACH/50. It almost always depends on whether there is ductwork in the house - with ductwork and serious overhang/soffit connections can go as high as 35 ACH/50. Occasionally (<3%) I'll get a new house that's <5 ACH. We also see heating and/or cooling systems that are 2 to 3 times oversized, poorly installed insulation (100% f/g batts), nonexistent or dysfunctional ventilation systems - so while there may be lots to do, the biggest problem is where to start fixing what. The renovation work is not much better - it's amazing what a new cathedral ceilinged kitchen or family room can to the performance of a 100 year old house. PS: Thanks for your fungal sampling procedures. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 14:58:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22918 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:49:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23881; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:40:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:35:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23106 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:35:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23085 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 13:34:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA05800 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:40:16 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005A5C1; Tue, 10 Mar 98 12:29:26 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 12:39:00 -0600 Message-ID: <0005A5C1.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Durability, framing for 200 years To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2466 For anyone who's interested, there are a number of additional studies showing that the increased use of wood products can help to mitigate global warming... FULL FUEL CYCLE CARBON BALANCES OF BIOENERGY AND FORESTRY OPTIONS. Schlamadinger, B.; Marland, G. Joanneum Research, Elisabethstrasse 11, A-8010 Graz, Austria. Energy Conversion and Management vol. 37 (6/8): p.813-818. 1996. Excerpt: "Forestry projects can, at least temporarily, mitigate the net flux of anthropogenic CO2 to the atmosphere by removing C from the atmosphere and sequestering it in growing trees. The net flux of C to the atmosphere can also be reduced if trees are burned to displace the burning of fossil fuels and are then replanted to recycle the C back into the biosphere, or if wood is used for products that store carbon and are otherwise made from other, more energy-intensive materials." EFFECT OF HARVEST OF OLD GROWTH DOUGLAS-FIR STANDS AND SUBSEQUENT MANAGEMENT ON CARBON DIOXIDE LEVELS IN THE ATMOSPHERE. Kershaw, J. A., Jr.; Oliver, C. D.; Hinckley, T. M. Faculty of Forestry, University of New Brunswick, Fredericton, NB E3B 6C2, Canada. Journal of Sustainable Forestry vol. 1 (1): p.61-77 Publication Year: 1993 Excerpt: "Using wood as a substitute for other materials (brick, aluminium, and plastic) dramatically reduces CO2 released to the atmosphere" THE IMPORTANCE OF WOOD UTILIZATION FOR THE CO2 BUDGET. Original Title: Die Bedeutung der Holznutzung fur den CO2-Haushalt. Brandl, H. Forstliche Versuchs- und Forschungsanstalt Baden-Wurttemberg, Freiburg, Germany. AFZ/Der Wald, Allgemeine Forst Zeitschrift fur Waldwirtschaft und Umweltvorsorge vol. 51 (10): p.573-576 Publication Year: 1996 Language: German Excerpt: "A quantitative carbon budget is produced for the forests of Baden-Wurttemberg, Germany, showing the various possibilities of reducing CO2 by forestry and wood utilization. The CO2 budget in virgin forests and managed forests is compared, CO2 storage in defined forest products and per hectare of forest is quantified,..... The analysis shows that forestry with intensive wood utilization is a highly efficient way of achieving CO2 reductions." CONVERTING TERRESTRIAL ECOSYSTEMS FROM SOURCES TO SINKS OF CARBON. Houghton, R. A. Woods Hole Research Center, P.O. Box 296, Woods Hole, MA 02543, USA. Ambio vol. 25 (4): p.267-272 Publication Year: 1996 Excerpt: "It may be possible to sequester carbon in forests and forest products,.... Management practices that could change this release of terrestrial carbon to an accumulation include (i)a halt to deforestation; (ii)an expansion in the land area of forests; (iii)an increase in the stocks of carbon in existing forests; (iv)MORE EFFICIENT HARVEST AND GREATER USE OF WOOD IN LONG-LASTING PRODUCTS; and (v)the substitution of wood fuels for fossil fuels." (my emphasis) MITIGATION OF CARBON EMISSIONS TO THE ATMOSPHERE BY FOREST MANAGEMENT. Brown, S.; Sathaye, J.; Cannell, M.; Kauppi, P. E. US Environmental Protection Agency, National Health and Environmental Effects Research Laboratory, Western Ecology Division, 200 SW 35th St, Corvallis, OR 97333, USA. Commonwealth Forestry Review vol. 75 (1): p.80-91, 109, 111-112 Publication Year: 1996 Excerpt: "The goal of this paper is to present the current state of understanding of the potential for managing forests to mitigate CO2 emissions. There are basically 3 categories of promising forestry practices that promote sound management of forests and at the same time conserve sequester carbon (C): (1) management for conservation of existing C pools through slowing deforestation, changing harvesting regimes and protecting forests from disturbances; (2) management for expanding C storage by increasing the area and/or C density of native forests, plantations and agroforestry systems and/or in wood products; and (3) management for substitution by INCREASING THE TRANSFER FOR FOREST BIOMASS CARBON INTO PRODUCTS, SUCH AS BIOFUELS AND LONG-LIVED WOOD PRODUCTS, that can be used instead of ossil-fuel based products." (my emphasis) CARBON STORAGE IN LAKE STATES ASPEN ECOSYSTEMS. Alban, D.H. Perala, D.A. USDA Forest Service, North Central Forest Experiment Station, Grand Rapids, MN Ottawa, Ont. : National Research Council of Canada. Canadian journal of forest research = Revue canadienne de recherche forestiere. Aug 1992. v. 22 (8) p. 1107-1110. Excerpt: "Total ecosystem carbon in the soil and vegetation was measured for a range of aspen (Populus tremuloides Michx.) ecosystems, including a chronosequence on the same soil ranging in age from 0 to 80 years. Soil carbon stayed relatively constant throughout the stand's life and was not affected by timber harvesting. Changes in ecosystem carbon closely paralleled the changes in standing biomass. ASPEN GROWN ON 40-YEAR ROTATIONS ON GOOD SOILS WILL SEQUESTER SEVERAL TIMES AS MUCH CARBON PER YEAR AS OLD-GROWTH FORESTS." (my emphasis. Note: Aspen is the primary species used in the Midwest to produce OSB) GREENHOUSE FACT AND FICTION (global warming impact on environment) Sampson, Neil American Forests, v95, n7&8, p6(2) July-August, 1989 Excerpt: "If someone gave us an area of forest land and told us to manage it for maximum beneficial greenhouse impact, our strategy would be something like the following: 1) Manage the trees to encourage maximum growth rates. (It is the growth of trees that converts carbon dioxide into sugars, cellulose, and oxygen. Building up biomass through growth is what results in net reduction of atmospheric carbon dioxide.) 2) As trees approach maturity and growth slows or stops, harvest them in a way that minimizes damage to topsoil and maximizes growth of the next crop of trees. 3) CONVERT AS MUCH OF EACH TREE AS POSSIBLE INTO PRODUCTS WITH A LONG STORAGE LIFE, such as structural building materials, and use the rest as fuel. (The latter use releases carbon dioxide back to the atmosphere, but since it replaces the use of fossil fuels, it represents recycling rather than a new net carbon addition to the atmosphere.) 4) Spread the ashes from burning the wood for fuel back on the land to help recycle nutrients; replant the land with the fastest-growing trees best adapted to the site, and start the management cycle over again. If that prescription sounds too much like modern industrial forestry to suit your taste, look at it again. It wasn't intended to justify any particular type of land management or maximize all forest values-it simply focuses on creating maximum biomass and using that biomass in ways that reduce or constrain the buildup of atmospheric carbon dioxide. The truth is that in terms of favorable impact on the greenhouse effect, modern industrial forestry works pretty well. If we had more acres of forest, managed better, the atmosphere and the environment would be improved. THE KEY FACTORS ARE: FAST TIMBER GROWTH, CONVERSION OF THE WOOD INTO LONG-LASTING, USEFUL PRODUCTS, AND RAPID REFORESTATION AND REGROWTH." (my emphasis) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 16:24:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA28267 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:24:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02368; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:10:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02027 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:09:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.state.vt.us (mail.state.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02023 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:09:48 -0500 (EST) From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Received: from vdhvax ([159.105.135.2]) by mail.state.vt.us (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-44988U13000L13000S0) with SMTP id AAA54 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:24:18 -0500 Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:12:22 -0500 Message-Id: <98031016122243@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: window condensation X-VMS-To: SMTP%"greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2467 In this month's Fine Homebuilding there was (in addition to John Abrams' excellent article) an article on windows. Included in the article was a graph with condensation curves for various windows types given outside temps and inside RH. Does anyone know the source for this graph, or a similar chart? Thanks, Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 16:55:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA29065 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:55:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA04083; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:47:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:41:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA03665 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:41:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03656 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:41:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.198.23.18] (uA1-a17.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.18]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA17270 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:48:24 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <98031016122243@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:55:29 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: window condensation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2468 >In this month's Fine Homebuilding there was (in addition to >John Abrams' excellent article) an article on windows. >Included in the article was a graph with condensation >curves for various windows types given outside temps >and inside RH. Does anyone know the source for this >graph, or a similar chart? > >Thanks, >Mike Mike, I've got curves like that along with a number of other window performance curves. As I recall, there's a nomograph in Ned Nissan's old book on superinsulated houses that let's you vary a bunch of stuff. Let me know if you want a copy of my window stuff. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 17:10:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA29448 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:10:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05258; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:01:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:56:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04800 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:55:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04786 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:55:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.198.23.18] (uA1-a17.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.18]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA21547 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:02:31 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35016597.16FF7DBD@ix.netcom.com> References: <199803070700.CAA01129@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:09:37 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: stachybotrys atra mold Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2469 Jim wrote: > My conversation with Dr. Dearborn yesterday revolved around that controversial issue of whether duct cleaning is advised or not. ... If any of you have information on the issue of duct cleaning it would be appreciated. Jim, the EPA has been conducting reesearch on duct cleaning at their test house in RTP, NC. My recollection is that Russ Kulp is doing the work. They have three papers out. Contact: TimesRussell N. Kulp U.S. Environmental Protection Agency Office of Research and Development National Risk Management Research Laboratory Research Triangle Park, NC 27711 [ph: 919/541-7980, fax: 919/541-2157, email: <] >Am also working closely now with several medical and environmental groups in Cleveland on a Lead + Asthma project. We are attempting >to locate asthma triggers in residential structures. To date the medical folk tell us that dust mites, cockroaches and mold are the >three principal triggers in children with asthma. We are working on observation guidelines, specs and abatement strategies that can >be piggybacked on the efforts of the lead abatement program. We are also working hard on some client education stuff to help raise >the awareness of families experiencing some of these problems. Will be reporting on our progress at Affordable Comfort in May (The >Roach Patrol is the title of our session). I love it. I find great elegance in doing two jobs at the same time because they are fundamentally related. Weatherization folks can reduce the risk of underventilation, overventilation, moisture problems, air quality problems, insect and rodent problems, energy problems and comfort problems by sealing envelope and interzonal leaks. I can hardly wait to hear your talk. >Have been following the musings on this site for many months. Looks like it took mold to drag me out of the woodwork!! Would value >your insights as we address some real human dilemmas, the major one for us being, how do we protect the health of residents in housing >we have little money to repair. > >Jim LaRue Glad you're out of lurkdom Jim. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 17:18:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA29659 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:18:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05888; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:10:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:04:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05400 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:04:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05396 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:04:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from DOMUSPLUS@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4MKOa03502 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:10:27 -0500 (EST) From: DOMUSPLUS Message-ID: <88f11754.3505ba55@aol.com> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:10:27 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Finger-jointed studs Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2470 Does anyone know where to get 2 x 4 finger-jointed studs? I used them three years ago for a "green" residential rehab project in Chicago. They worked out very well (they were actually cheaper than conventional 2 x 4 studs at the time). I'm doing another "green" rehab and would like to use them again but I can't seem to find them. Thanks Paul Knight Domus PLUS Oak Park, IL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 17:30:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA29923 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:30:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06781; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:21:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:16:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA06291 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:15:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06281 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust190.tnt2.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.31.190]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id QAA07524; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:21:51 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3505BD85.4C15@gte.net> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:24:05 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Cost of labor References: <2014161@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2471 John Salmen wrote: I would agree that labour is costing too much in relation to materials but only to say that the cost of materials is too low and I would also add that the cost of labour is too low to sustain craft Marc Rosenbaum wrote: We in the industrialized countries want TOO MUCH STUFF - we can either have small well crafted homes with fewer high-quality things, or large houses poorly made filled with mostly junk. If we could scale our material desires back significantly, we could pay the real costs of materials AND a decent wage to all. It seems to me that you're both right, but that we can't expect each individual to reach this conclusion on their own. Changing accounting and fiscal practices to recognize full costs and reward widely perceived benefits appears the most practical, though daunting solution. Taxes on fossil fuel use and pollution, for example, make much more sense than taxing earned income. Only when we have the collective wisdom and fortitude to retilt the scales will real progress be made. In resource poor, highly educated, and socialistic countries like the Netherlands, these issues are turning into no brainers. People are taxed like crazy, but they reap the health and social rewards and know that they're paying high gas taxes, road taxes, and recycling fees to own automobiles. In the US, with it's knee jerk anti-tax rhetoric, we can't even approve a 5 cent a gallon gas tax. The Wuppertal Institute in Germany has done much to advance the rigor behind the ecological tax reform question. Paul Hawken, Redefining Progress, et al are making limited inroads in the US. Why is it I feel so pessimistic that the average American will ever be willing to pay for value and quality, instead of power and prestige. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 17:42:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA01147 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:42:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07523; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:34:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:29:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA07068 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:28:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo30.mx.aol.com (imo30.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.168]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA07064 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:28:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from RodLambert@aol.com by imo30.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4MWAa23678 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:34:43 -0500 (EST) From: RodLambert Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 17:34:43 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: fuel cells Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2472 I can't see any reason to be reticent about discussing fuel cells on this list unless there is some 'shameless hustle' associated with it - bring it on by all means. Rod Lambert Development Management Second Neighborhood Ecovillage at Ithaca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 18:19:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA03764 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:19:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09370; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:10:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:05:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08868 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:05:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08850 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:04:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip208.efn.org [204.214.97.208]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA10442; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:09:04 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: , "Marc J. Rosenbaum" Cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: Cost of labor Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 14:28:45 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd4c73$e3275e40$LocalHost@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2473 Cindy, I enjoyed your post concerning environmental tax reform and hinting toward voluntary simplicity. I feel that this stuff is so basic to what we want in the Green Building movement. I for one will never cry "Off Topic" when it is brought up here. Robert Bolman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 18:39:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04251 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:39:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10262; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:31:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:25:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA09853 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:25:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09848 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:25:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.155] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:37:36 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Finger-jointed studs Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 15:30:59 -0800 x-sender: bruce@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: bruce To: "DOMUSPLUS" , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1322578232-2950475@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2474 Paul The REDI database lists only one company under this Finger Jointed Studs: Georgia Pacific Corp. 33 Peachtree Street NE Atlanta, GA 30303 USA tel: 404-652-4000 tel: 800-BUILD G-P fax: 404-230-5624 If anyone mentions other sources I'll add them to the database for everyone's reference. Bruce >Does anyone know where to get 2 x 4 finger-jointed studs? I used them three >years ago for a "green" residential rehab project in Chicago. They worked out >very well (they were actually cheaper than conventional 2 x 4 studs at the >time). I'm doing another "green" rehab and would like to use them again but I >can't seem to find them. > >Thanks > > >Paul Knight ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 21:23:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA08122 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:23:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17082; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:15:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:09:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16721 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:09:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16716 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:09:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (ke-ppp07.hevanet.com [198.5.254.157]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21474; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:15:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3505F353.1173BE3F@hevanet.com> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:13:43 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: walshj@NU.COM, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: R-Values of Bubble Wrap Insulation References: <852565C3.0048FA36.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2475 Hi, John-- Don't know if I can answer all your questions, but this was a raging controversy here in the Pacific Northwest about ten years ago, so the Bonneville Power Administration commissioned some tests of "reflective insulation". The reference is Desjarlais, A.O. and Tye, R.P., Thermatest Division of Holometrix, Inc. Reflective Insulation Handbook, Bonneville Power Administration, August 1990 (Contract No. DE-A179-86BP60294). This report is a subsection of "Research and Development Data to Define the Thermal Performance of Reflective Materials Used to Conserve Energy in Building Applications, National Technical Information Service (NTIS), US Dep't. of Commerce, 5285 Port Royal Road, Springfield VA 22161, $31.00. Anyway, the handbook includes some test results. For example, in a 2x4 wall cavity, when the reflective material is positioned to create a reflective air space, the R-value for horizontal heat flow was R-4.7. A test of a 2x6 horizontal (floor-like) cavity with 3 (three) layers of reflective insulation installed, did measure an R-value of R-16.8. The delta-T was 30 degrees F. Note that this is with perfect lab-grade installation and conditions. The report says that, to be effective, the components must remain clean and parallel, correctly spaced, and air must be still. They point out that actual installed R-value would vary depending on field installation. Personally, I doubt that an actual installtion could be so flawless. Such R-values are way under what the code and utility building programs require, so we were able to tell interested parties that, while the reflective insulation had some nominal R-value, it wasn't sufficient to meet minimum specifications, and we didn't feel we could rely on the test results to predict actual performance. I have a spare copy of the report, so let me know if you would like to see it. Best, Mike walshj@NU.COM wrote: > Hello; I am trying to research R-Value claims of BubbleWrap Insulation > (i.e. Reflextix, Astrofoil). A customer has requested the substitution of > this product in a utility sponsored retrofit program. They have requested > that this product be used in their basement ceiling in place of fiberglass > batts. They have provided manufacturer's testing which shows R-Values as > high as 15 and 16.8. However the actual conductive R-Value of this product > is about 1. I have found an article in NOV. 92 EDU which seems to lend > some credibility to this claim. > > However, my heat loss 101 makes me remain skeptical. Several questions > that come to mind immediately include: > > Isn't heat loss through floors minimal? Wouldn't the savings be > drastically reduced if the delta T is small? Wouldn't the product have to > be air tight in the floors to prevent convective heat loss? Can convective > looping occur if all penetrations into the floor joists are not properly > sealed? How about loss of reflectivity due to dust build up or surface > degradation? How does one compare this product with others such as > Fiberglass batts or blown in cellulose? > > Has anyone more recent information regarding this subject? How about > previous discussion threads? I realize that there are several issues here. > My priority right now is determining the accuracy of these claims. I would > appreciate any information on this subject. Thanks in advance > > John Walsh > Residential C+LM > W.M.E.C.O. > 413-787-9105 > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 21:50:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA08667 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:50:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18527; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:41:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:36:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17975 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:36:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.153]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17971 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:36:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4DZLa02815 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:41:36 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO Message-ID: Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:41:36 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: window condensation - commercial plug Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2476 Our Indoor Humidity Tools software program also has a window-condensation calculation routine. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 108 S. Albany St. Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX IMSHAPIRO@AOL.COM "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 21:50:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA08679 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:50:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18542; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:42:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:36:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17988 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:36:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17983 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:36:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from ssh.ampsc.com (ssh.ampsc.com [207.102.161.104]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA18850; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:47:00 -0800 Message-ID: <3505FA57.682@ampsc.com> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 18:43:35 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RodLambert CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: fuel cells References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2477 I think it is too off-base for GreenBuild Mailing List, don't you agree? 2 cents Richard Moore CEO Eco-Systems Unlimited - Sustaining Safe and Healthy Occupancies Development Management, Building Systems Analysis, Indoor Air Environment Specialists, Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 21:58:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA08855 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:58:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19396; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:50:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:44:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18686 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:44:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18682 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:44:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.5] (blf5.acadia.net [205.217.217.5]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA28981 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:50:50 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:51:32 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Source for Pressure-Treated Wood? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2478 Speireag wrote: >I've no intention of using the >conventional stuff, which is treated with ammoniated copper arsenate. Does >anyone know of a place in northern New England which regularly stocks any >of the alternatives? So far I've found no one who stocks it and no one who >is willing to order small quantities. > Dear Speireag, Ellsworth Building Supply in various towns in Maine stocks Kodiak, a southern yellow pine which is treated with ACQ, a somewhat less toxic alternative to conventional CCA treatment. Also, there are naturally rot-resistant woods. One local wood is black locust, of which there is an abundant amount around here since the ice storm. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 21:59:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA08875 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:59:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19487; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:50:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:45:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18752 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:45:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18746 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:45:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from qix.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@qix.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.87]) by donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.2-mailhub) with ESMTP id VAA17223 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:51:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by qix.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.6-client) with SMTP id VAA03398 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:51:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 21:51:26 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@qix.rs.itd.umich.edu To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: energy consumption for lowE coating/argon filling process Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2479 Dear list members- Would someone on this list be able to provide energy consumption numbers for the process(es) of applying a lowE coating onto window panes, filling the space between the two panes with argon, and finally assembling the double-glased window ("pre-frame")? Any other environmentally relevant info about these processes would also be of great use. Thanks in advance. Best, Peter PS: I've got numbers for the production of argon and for one typ of lowE coating base material. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Reppe e-mail: reppe@umich.edu National Pollution Prevention Center phone : 734-936-8386 University of Michigan fax : 734-647-5841 430 E. University Ann Arbor, MI http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub 48109-1115 U.S.A. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reppe -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 22:34:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA09673 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:34:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA21249; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:25:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:19:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA20790 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:19:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20785 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:19:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sb26.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.187]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA04946 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:26:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35060339.1C60@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:21:29 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Source for Pressure-Treated Wood? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2480 David M. Foley wrote: > Dear Speireag, > > Ellsworth Building Supply in various towns in Maine stocks Kodiak, a > southern yellow pine which is treated with ACQ, a somewhat less toxic > alternative to conventional CCA treatment. What does ACQ stand for? Any feedback on this system? > Also, there are naturally rot-resistant woods. One local wood is black > locust, of which there is an abundant amount around here since the ice > storm. > _ Anyone have any comparisons for various Locusts againt Yellow Pine with these two treatments? Anyone have experience with either Yellow Cedar or Alaskan Cedar? I haven't found either in my books yet, but I just started looking. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 10 22:40:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA09885 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:40:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA21804; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:31:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:26:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA21277 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:25:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21265 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:25:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sb26.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.187]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA06654 for ; Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:32:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <350604AB.2308@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 22:27:39 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: fuel cells References: <3505FA57.682@ampsc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2481 R J Moore wrote: > > I think it is too off-base for GreenBuild Mailing List, don't you agree? > > 2 cents > > Richard Moore No. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 00:27:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA13544 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:27:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA26391; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:18:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:13:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA25918 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:12:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from november.diac.com (root@diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA25911 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:12:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.64.42.99] (p99.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.99]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA28154 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 05:18:13 GMT Message-Id: <199803110518.FAA28154@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: re: Commercialism Date: Tue, 10 Mar 98 22:19:41 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2482 Terry wrote (after a rather brilliant discourse on the nature of molds): >Lastly, when I wrote about the courses, I got a creepy feeling in my >stomach - something to do with commercialism, and deeper something to do >with an old family rule about putting yourself out there. I'd be grateful >for thoughts on how others deal with these issues. Commercialism doesn't bother me; wouldn't you would rather listen to a person who works for living than to a trust funder? No matter what you do or don't do in life, to not fully manifest who you are would be doing everyone (and certainly yourself) a disservice. We are not actually required to be right or wrong, smart or stupid, famous or unknown; but we are required to give it our best shot. Keep up the good work! Buzz Burrell Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 01:31:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA14987 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:31:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA28137; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:17:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA27856 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:17:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.157]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA27852 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:17:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4CSCa21408; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:22:59 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey Message-ID: <3e8d1155.35062dc6@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 01:22:59 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org, speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Source for Pressure-Treated Wood? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2483 Speireag, You might try contacting: Kevin Joyce or Dean Rogers Chemical Specialties, Inc. One Woodlawn Green, Suite 250 Charlotte, NC 28217 800-421-8661 Info Manufacturers of "ACQ-Preserve(TM)" pressure treatment, using Alkaline Copper Quat instead of arsenic and/or chromium is much less toxic than ACA or CCA methods. Copper comes from recycled sources. Also "Impel Rods" and "Boracol" wood preservative. Contains no known carcinogens or EPA listed hazardous compounds. I'm sure they can tell you where the closest distributors for ACQ are located. My local lumberyard here in Berkeley, (Truitt & White Lumber Co.) has changed all their pressure treated lumber stock to ACQ with great success. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant Berkeley, CA IAQKibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 07:41:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA23469 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:41:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA06557; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:26:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA06245 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:26:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA06239 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:26:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 8CBRa04319; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:31:37 -0500 (EST) From: Marcoplos Message-ID: <403f901c.3506842b@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:31:37 EST To: robtb@efn.org, mcshea1@gte.net, Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Cost of labor Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2484 On a somewhat related topic - but more connected to a previous discussion about what can be done to advance the acceptance of environmental building in general. Higher paid workers are more likely to take the time to understand the concepts and feel like a more valued part of the team. They'll just feel better, work better, and communicate better. A major obstacle to higher wages is the high cost of workman's comp and liability insurance. Behind the insurance companies stands the health-care system which, in its present HMO form, is more profit-driven than ever before. If this state-supported system of diverting huge sums of money from builders was not so greedy and unregulated, wages would be higher, workers healthier, and more apt to take green building seriously. It's a complex problem, but one that I think deserves mention. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 07:51:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA23711 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:51:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA07066; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:42:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:37:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA06645 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.152]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA06641 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:36:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4EDQa23134 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:42:31 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl Message-ID: <5824d46b.350686b9@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:42:31 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Building information Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 82 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2485 Lister and lurkers: Anyone care to discourse on this one? This is a serious request that I would hate to see pass by the Greenies on the list without comment. This is how a Green agenda gets in front of the public. >FROM: Steve Infanti, Northeast Pennsylvania Business Journal > >I'm writing a story for the Northeast Pennsylvania Business Journal. >This story is on how building design/layout and materials can save >companies money or contribute to greater profits. I'm looking for data >and concrete examples to include with my article. For example, how using >certain construction materials can save you money on heating and cooling >costs. What are some of the classic blunders that businesses make with >layout/design? > >I need sources who can provide true dollars and cents stuff by Thursday 03/12/98 >at 4 p.m. Please e-mail any information to: > >Address: 71700.3343@compuserve.com >Subject: attn: Steve Infanti Go for it!!! Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Contractors Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 07:52:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA23735 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:52:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA07169; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:43:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:38:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA06709 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:37:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.vineyard.net (mail@NS.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA06704 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:37:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mail.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10694 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:44:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 07:44:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from csy7.vineyard.net(206.166.158.49) by mail.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id smaa10560; Wed Mar 11 07:43:54 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Commercialism Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2486 Having been away for three weeks, and having only partially kept up with the list while away, I had a lot of catching up to do the last few days. . . and a lot to say about some of the intriguing threads that have been rolling along. But I realized so many have said so much of what I would say better than I ever could, so I'll forgo my comments, except the following: 1) one whole hell of a lot of intelligence passes through this list; thanks to all; 2) . . . nice to have Buzz Burrell's thoughtful comments back; 3) Re: commercialism: There's not an overly-commercial bone in Terry's body. Terry - I'd be happy to listen to you advertise Coca Cola or Toys-R-Us; 4) Nice article by Beverly Weiter in current "In Business"; 5) Re: innovation: our approach: when we innovate our clients pay, but it's really only a long term trial lease - we own it until it has worked the way it's supposed to for +/- 10 years, or long enough to pay for itself, or until they get sick of it and we haul it away and replace at our cost. This eases clients' concerns, frees us to experiment, and constrains our impulses all at once. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 08:23:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA24586 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:23:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08370; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:14:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:08:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA08040 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:08:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08035 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:08:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:08:32 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 10920 invoked by uid 0); 11 Mar 1998 13:15:36 -0000 Received: from ppp-1.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.194?) (198.175.11.194) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 11 Mar 1998 13:15:36 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Source for Pressure-Treated Wood? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2487 Speireag asked: > I'm going to be needing some pressure-treated lumber in order to set my >electrical service in the ground once the ground thaws. Having read the >recent article in _This Old House_, I've no intention of using the >conventional stuff, which is treated with ammoniated copper arsenate. Does >anyone know of a place in northern New England which regularly stocks any >of the alternatives? So far I've found no one who stocks it and no one who >is willing to order small quantities. ---------------- You seem to be looking for supports for a TEMPORARY electrical hook-up during construction. If so, then you don't need to worry about rot resistance. Just put some regular old 2x4's in the ground and they'll last 4 or 5 years with no problem. I've done it here in soggy ground in northern New York. Or it you want maybe 10 or 12 years you can use cedar fence posts, available from farm supply stores like Agway, or other local farm sources. You could even get extravagant and buy cedar lumber which is carried by "better" lumber yards. There are other wood species that will last up to 20 years in the ground, but I haven't seen them available locally (black locust) or they are very expensive (white oak) or they are endangered, like redwood. So, if your need is temporary, don't worry about it. And, I try to design anything I'm building so that I don't need to have any wood in contact with the ground or even near it. Concrete posts (poured in sonotubes) with various metal connectors seem to be a simple and much better solution environmentally than treated wood products or "exotic" wood species. So if you do need these electrical service supports to be permanent, you could go the concrete route for not too much more effort than just sticking wood in the ground. Oh, and common treated lumber is CCA, which are initials for copper, chromium, and arsenic. As if arsenic weren't bad enough, the chromium (which you didn't mention) can also be very toxic. C Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 10:06:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28255 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:06:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12530; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:57:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:51:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11892 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:51:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11883 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:51:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from drucker.niehs.nih.gov (drucker.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.15.129]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA04133; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:58:01 -0500 Received: by drucker.niehs.nih.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:57:49 -0500 Message-ID: <8DD3D27DC6A5D111823200A0C955FB4016836E@drucker.niehs.nih.gov> From: "James.Olivia" To: "'david'" , "'Greenbuilding'" , "'immune'" , "'Kim Connelly'" Subject: GBlist: FW: VIRUS WARNING Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:57:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2488 please pardon this but this one sounds for real (from technical staff at our magazine) > ---------- > From: Hui Hu > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 9:49 AM > To: EHP & OCR staff > Subject: FW: VIRUS WARNING > > VIRUS WARNING > > If you receive an e-mail titled "WIN A HOLIDAY" DO NOT open it, it > will > erase everything on your hard drive. Forward this letter out to as > many > people as you can. This is a new, very malicious virus and not many > people know about it. This information was announced yesterday morning > from Microsoft, please share it with everyone that might access the > Internet. > > Once again, pass this along to EVERYONE in your address book so that > this may be stopped. Also, do not open or even look at any mail that > says "RETURNED OR UNABLE TO DELIVER" this virus will attach itself to > your computer components and render them useless. Immediately delete > any mail items that say this. AOL has said that this is a very > dangerous virus and that there is NO remedy for it at this time. > please > practice cautionary measures and forward this to all your on-line > friends. > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 10:08:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28345 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:08:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12742; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:59:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:54:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12134 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:54:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12126 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:53:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail2.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:17:03 +0000 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 98 09:14:00 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re(2): GBlist: Roof Life Expectancy To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5092624.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2489 Be aware that terne has a high percentage of lead, which seems to be conveniently omitted from product literature. We've spent a fair amount of time trying to determine the leachability of lead in run-off from roof surfaces (beyond what seems to be a given) and found almost no literature regarding this, save a decades-old study done of roofs of old cathedrals in Europe. I think this is an issue that deserves to be exposed, i.e., TERNE ROOFS ARE MADE WITH LEAD AND THIS IS LIKELY TO RESULT IN DANGEROUS HEALTH EXPOSURES DURING MANUFACTURING, INSTALLATION, and USE. It is even further ironic that at least one new building of the U.S. FIsh & Wildlife Dept is roofed with terne. G. Vittor -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 10:30:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29051 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:30:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13874; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:21:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:16:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13353 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:16:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from eypdc04.eypae.com (eypdc04.eypae.com [205.234.22.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13349 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:16:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by eypdc04.eypae.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:23:10 -0500 Message-ID: From: Mike Fowler To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: FW: VIRUS WARNING Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:16:18 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2490 Please, everyone remain calm. Many of you may already know this, but if not, let me pass along some information my college roommate sent me last year regarding computer viruses. From: jelarsen Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 1997 3:56 PM To: Mike Fowler Subject: Re: FW: Virus Warning hi fella, there is no virus that can execute by opening an email message. here is some detail that I am forwarding: -fella ----- FYI I work in EIS and have done alot of research on viruses. Reading an email message can not infect your system. The only way that a virus can pass through an email system is through a file attachment. To infect your system, you would have to save the file to a local or network drive and either open it in the case of a document or execute it in the case of a program. Some mail readers have the option to automatically execute or open an attachment instead of having to save the attachment first. If you are using a mail reader that has this capability, turn it off. This reminds me of the "Good times" virus alert of a few years ago. The virus never actually existed, though must have received mail from a dozen people warning me about it. The message they forwarded to me, read exactly like this one. The only difference was the subject. Usually these types of virus alerts are false. The messages are primarily designed to create waves of spamming. I not saying that you should ignore virus alerts. I just saying that care should be taken to avoid spamming. If you receive a message like this you should contact your local MIS support and ask them if the virus is for real or not. Once they research it they can let the user community know about it. Also you can check the web like WWW.MCAFEE.COM. I hope this message is helpful. There are alot of misconceptions about viruses out there. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 10:32:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29124 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:32:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14076; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:24:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:18:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13543 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:18:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13535 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:18:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA1-c18.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.211]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA11980; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:24:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3506AB95.2905@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:19:49 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re(2): GBlist: Roof Life Expectancy References: <5092624.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2491 greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com wrote: > > Be aware that terne has a high percentage of lead, which seems to be > conveniently omitted from product literature. We've spent a fair amount of > time trying to determine the leachability of lead in run-off from roof > surfaces (beyond what seems to be a given) and found almost no literature > regarding this, save a decades-old study done of roofs of old cathedrals in > Europe. I think this is an issue that deserves to be exposed, i.e., TERNE > ROOFS ARE MADE WITH LEAD AND THIS IS LIKELY TO RESULT IN DANGEROUS HEALTH > EXPOSURES DURING MANUFACTURING, INSTALLATION, and USE. It is even further > ironic that at least one new building of the U.S. FIsh & Wildlife Dept is > roofed with terne. G. Vittor G., Thank you for the input, I also received a post earlier from another list member, saying that the leachates from copper were toxic and potentially a big problem. Anyone have any thoughts or documentation on this? That leaves galvinized standing seam the only one not specifically mentioned as a problem by someone. The lead issue for roofing in old world cities is not news, but I had never heard any discussion on copper, can someone sight some documentation. This is one of my favorite roofing systems, I would hate to lose it as an option. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville,NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 10:43:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29420 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:43:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14648; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:34:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:29:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14280 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:29:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14273 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:29:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from drucker.niehs.nih.gov (drucker.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.15.129]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA06672 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:35:44 -0500 Received: by drucker.niehs.nih.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:35:32 -0500 Message-ID: <8DD3D27DC6A5D111823200A0C955FB40168373@drucker.niehs.nih.gov> From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: RE: GBlist: FW: VIRUS WARNING Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:35:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2492 thanks, mike. because of the source i trusted this warning but that may have been premature. sorry for the spam. olivia > ---------- > From: Mike Fowler > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 1998 10:16 AM > To: 'greenbuilding@crest.org' > Subject: RE: GBlist: FW: VIRUS WARNING > > Please, everyone remain calm. > Many of you may already know this, but if not, let me pass along some > information my college roommate sent me last year regarding computer > viruses. > > From: jelarsen > Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 1997 3:56 PM > To: Mike Fowler > Subject: Re: FW: Virus Warning > > hi fella, > > there is no virus that can execute by opening an email message. here > is > some > detail that I am forwarding: > > -fella > ----- > > FYI > > I work in EIS and have done alot of research on viruses. Reading an > email > message can not infect your system. The only way that a virus can > pass > through > an email system is through a file attachment. To infect your system, > you would > have to save the file to a local or network drive and either open it > in > the case > of a document or execute it in the case of a program. Some mail > readers > have > the option to automatically execute or open an attachment instead of > having to > save the attachment first. If you are using a mail reader that has > this > capability, turn it off. > > This reminds me of the "Good times" virus alert of a few years ago. > The > virus > never actually existed, though must have received mail from a dozen > people > warning me about it. The message they forwarded to me, read exactly > like this > one. The only difference was the subject. > > Usually these types of virus alerts are false. The messages are > primarily > designed to create waves of spamming. I not saying that you should > ignore virus > alerts. I just saying that care should be taken to avoid spamming. > If > you > receive a message like this you should contact your local MIS support > and ask > them if the virus is for real or not. Once they research it they can > let the > user community know about it. Also you can check the web like > WWW.MCAFEE.COM. > > I hope this message is helpful. There are alot of misconceptions > about > viruses > out there. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 11:09:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA00116 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:09:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16080; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:01:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:55:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15486 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:55:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gw2.pacbell.net (mail-gw2.pacbell.net [206.13.28.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15482 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:55:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ppp-206-170-29-225.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.225]) by mail-gw2.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id IAA02584; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:01:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3506B5B3.643D@pacbell.net> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:02:59 -0800 From: George Kamburoff Reply-To: gkam@pacbell.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-PBWG (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: energy storage References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2493 You asked about storing hydrogen for the winter. Fuel cells are conversion devices, not energy storage devices. Hydrogen storage is one of the problems with the use of it, because of its low energy density. There are alternatives, such as metal hydrides, which store hydrogen in the interstitial spaces of rocks, between the atoms of rock crystals. This density of hydrogen can actually exceed that of liquefaction, but the material is expensive. Liquefation itself is costly in energy and equipment. I know of users who have large tanks to store compressed hydrogen, also. So storing it over a season isn't a particularly good idea at present. But storage for a few days' use IS practical. But many of the early systems will probably use a hydrocarbon fuel, such as methane, which has four hydrogens and one carbon atom, and a fuel reformer, which oxidizes the carbon to leave the hydrogen. We have sufficient hydrogen in methane for many hundreds of years. We keep finding the stuff. This "methane bridge" is counted on by many to hold us while we find good ways to solve the technical problems with energy density. (And we're making good progress) Another source is photovoltaic-generated electricity, which uses an electrolyzer to split water into hydrogen and oxygen, storing the H2. The operation of the fuel cell produces electricity and pure water, which goes into the electrolyzer to be split again by the next day's sunlight. This is a closed system with water as the working fluid. Once built, a system such as this could produce power without any pollution whatever, essentially forever. The only moving parts are simple centrifugal fans and pumps. This has been done, and to me is the ultimate in Greenbuilding, since direct energy use dwarfs all other considerations (including construction and materials) in habitation. Integrated with other sources of supply, such as wind power, small hydro, digestion of biomass (probably from human and animal waste), and hydrogen from algae, we could build a powerplant with no pollution at all that exactly fits the characteristics of a local area. In fact, the anaerobic digestors would also give us stabilized nutrients for crops, all from our waste products. It's an ideal way to get power to the 50% of the world that doesn't have it yet, without using all our petroleum and fouling the air. Oops, too long a post. Sorry for the excess verbiage. Please continue to express your interest, and I'll respond more succinctly. George Kamburoff ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 11:13:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA00231 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:13:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16564; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:05:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:57:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15657 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:57:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803111557.KAA15657@solstice.crest.org> From: Mike Fowler To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Source for Pressure-Treated Wood Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:01:02 -0500 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2494 BACKGROUND Speireag wrote: >I've no intention of using the >conventional stuff, which is treated with ammoniated copper arsenate. Does >anyone know of a place in northern New England which regularly stocks any >of the alternatives? So far I've found no one who stocks it and no one who >is willing to order small quantities. > David Foley wrote: Dear Speireag, Ellsworth Building Supply in various towns in Maine stocks Kodiak, a southern yellow pine which is treated with ACQ, a somewhat less toxic alternative to conventional CCA treatment. NEW MESSAGE I was also going to propose Kodiak. But the sales literature that I have from Kodiak (in Memphis TN web site ) states a different chemical name called CDDC. This process combines copper hydroxide and sodium dimethyldithiocarbamate to produce a water insoluble preservative called copper dimethyldithiocarbamate (CDDC). This is not on EPA's list of hazardous materials and requires no special handling or disposal instructions (but still, don't burn leftover scraps). This treatment gives the wood a more natural brown color instead of the unhealthy green color of conventional pressure treated wood. Any other knowledge out there about this CDDC? Additional sales lit states that in field testing the product leaches less than any other commercial water-borne preserved wood. Leaches less does not tell me much. Mike. ________________________________ Michael E. Fowler Registered Architect, State of New York Einhorn Yaffee Prescott Architecture & Engineering, P.C. The Argus Building PO Box 617 Broadway at Beaver Street Albany NY 12201-0617 EYP Web Site: http://www.eypae.com/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 11:15:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA00290 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:15:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16758; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:06:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:00:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA15900 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:00:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15848 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:59:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail2.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:23:04 +0000 Date: Wed, 11 Mar 98 10:20:00 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re(2): GBlist: Finger-jointed studs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5092685.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2495 Champion International Corp. (206)572 8300 is listed in CRBT's Guide to Resource Efficient Building Elements as selling finger joined studs. Also Cowlitz which distributes to us from Dallas. However, I'm not sure these are that great. I'm seeking a lumber company that produces "long" finger- finger joined studs. We've had a problem here in Austin, after convincing builders that finger joined studs were good to use, demonstrating that a stud would break everywhere but at the tines.... at the time we got long tines on these studs. Then the lumber companies here began getting in studs with small tine joints. The framers hate them because it seems that if you drop them they break at the joint! Sue Barnett Green Building Program City of Austin -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 11:49:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01309 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:49:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19439; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:41:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:35:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18625 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:35:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18605 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id L[T23030; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:40:20 EST To: jabrams@vineyard.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:32:39 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Commercialism Message-ID: <19980311.114111.6622.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-6 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2496 Hi John, Thanks for noticing the article and the kind words. Have been getting good responses already. Beverly Environs Interiors _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 12:27:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02365 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:27:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22681; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:18:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:13:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22148 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:13:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22144 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:13:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.202] (pm1a17.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.147]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA13030; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:19:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:19:22 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35060339.1C60@dreamscape.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Source for Pressure-Treated Wood? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2497 Several questions have been posted on preservative-treated wood: >From David Foley: >> Ellsworth Building Supply in various towns in Maine stocks Kodiak, a >> southern yellow pine which is treated with ACQ, a somewhat less toxic >> alternative to conventional CCA treatment. > >From Chuck Hinkley: >What does ACQ stand for? Any feedback on this system? > >From David Foley: >> Also, there are naturally rot-resistant woods. One local wood is black >> locust, of which there is an abundant amount around here since the ice >> storm. >From Mike Fowler: >I was also going to propose Kodiak. But the sales literature that I have >from Kodiak (in Memphis TN web site ) states a >different chemical name called CDDC. This process combines copper >hydroxide and sodium dimethyldithiocarbamate to produce a water >insoluble preservative called copper dimethyldithiocarbamate (CDDC). >This is not on EPA's list of hazardous materials and requires no special >handling or disposal instructions (but still, don't burn leftover >scraps). This treatment gives the wood a more natural brown color >instead of the unhealthy green color of conventional pressure treated >wood. >Any other knowledge out there about this CDDC? Additional sales lit >states that in field testing the product leaches less than any other >commercial water-borne preserved wood. Leaches less does not tell me >much. My two cents: ACQ and Kodiak, as Mike points out are very different. ACQ stands for "ammoniacal copper quaternary" compound. It relies on copper for providing decay resistance. This is made by Chemical Specialties Inc (CSI). Kodiak is a very different product as described in Mike's comments above. Through some checking I have done, red flags have emerged about the carbamate in Kodiak's product. Most carbamates that have been investigated in detail, I am told, eventually are shown to be hazardous. I'm still trying to learn more, but have held off writing a product review in EBN about it pending collection of good information. It may be a good product from an environmental and health standpoint, but I don't yet have enough information to feel confident with that conclusion. Black locust is an excellent alternative. I believe it will outlast CCA, ACQ, or Kodiak-treated wood. I have black locust posts in the ground in Vermont that have been there about 17 years and are showing only moderate degradation at the outer surfaces--in the below-grade portion. If there is a supply from down trees from the ice storm, all the better! Hope this is helpful. -Alex Wilson Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 12:39:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02681 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:39:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23667; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:30:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:25:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23076 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:24:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23072 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:24:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip8.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.27]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA57 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:31:10 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980311124152.00686244@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:41:52 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: FW: VIRUS WARNING In-Reply-To: <8DD3D27DC6A5D111823200A0C955FB4016836E@drucker.niehs.nih.g ov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA23073 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2498 Friends: I had received the same alert through other channels, and decided to investigate further. Text below has been excerpted from the Symantec website (http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/data/win.a.holiday.html). The conventional wisdom still seems to hold: namely you still need executable code to do things, and Email, per se, is still only a text file. This is another example of an Email hoax that some would perceive as a virus but only because it replicates. ============== Last modified: March 5, 1998 Win a Holiday Description: Win a Holiday is not a virus. It is a hoax. The "virus" does not exist. There is currently no virus that has the characteristics ascribed to "Win a Holiday." It is a sham, meant only to panic new or inexperienced computer users. In addition, it is a mild variant of the "Join the Crew" hoax (form 4). The hoax message includes the following "warning:" VIRUS WARNING !!!!!! If you receive an email titled "WIN A HOLIDAY" DO NOT open it. It will erase everything on your hard drive. Forward this letter out as many people as you can. This is a new, very malicious virus and not many people know about it. This information was announced yesterday morning from Microsoft; please share it with everyone that might access the Internet. Once again, pass this along to EVERYONE in our address book so that this may be stopped. Also, do not open or even look at any mail that says "RETURNED OR UNABLE TO DELIVER" This virus will attach itself to your computer components and render them useless. Immediately delete any mail items that say this. AOL has said that this is a very dangerous virus and that there is NO remedy for it at this time. Please practice cautionary measures and forward this to all your online friends ASAP. Please ignore any messages regarding this supposed "virus" and do not pass on any messages regarding it. Passing on messages about this hoax serves only to further propagate it. Copyright © 1997 Symantec Corporation. All rights reserved. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 12:52:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03084 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:52:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24888; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:43:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:38:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24180 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:37:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.156]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24175 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:37:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from MXThompson@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4DBCa23001 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:43:43 -0500 (EST) From: MXThompson Message-ID: <54ba8dfc.3506cd52@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:43:43 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Diagnostics Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2499 Dear GBList, I have a building diagnostics question that I would like your opinion(s) on. When I arrived at my mother’s apartment in the Bay Area about a month ago, there was some “stuff” on the carpet in the corner of the bedroom. Since it had been vacant for a couple of months and given the torrential rains, my first thought was “aha, mold”. On closer inspection, it turned out to be a sandy granular material (light brown and black specks). So, I vaccuumed it up. A week later it was back -- about a teaspoonful in exactly the same spot. The building is not very old (about 20 years), but has a poorly maintained wood shingle roof that doesn’t get much sun and is covered with moss; many of the shingles have are checked and have lifted. The bedroom has a t&g cathedral ceiling and there is no soffit/ridge venting and virtually no ventilation in the attic portion either. I am almost 100% sure it’s termites or carpenter ants or critters of some sort. The roof is also a playground for squirrels. I expect it’s wet up there and there probably is mold, too - it’s just not visually apparent yet. I was wondering what any of your thoughts might be re. the residue and the critters creating it. It doesn’t exactly look/feel like sawdust, but it could be and maybe droppings -- or maybe squirrels wiping their feet. I could send this to a lab for $150, but I’m not sure it’s necessary because the landlord probably won’t do anything about it anyway. The main reason, however, is that I would have to tell my mother and (as Terry knows from a radon-scare many years ago), this would open up a whole new can of worms. Thanks for any thoughts you have. Margo Thompson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 13:10:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03616 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:09:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25831; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:01:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:55:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA25408 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:55:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25402 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:55:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.91] (ka2-92.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.92]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA27239 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:02:02 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:01:49 -0500 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Source for Pressure-Treated Wood? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA25404 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2500 Sgrìobh Chuck Hinckley: >What does ACQ stand for? "Ammoniacal copper quartenary". The conventional stuff is chromated copper arsenate, or CCA (I think I said ammoniated copper arsenate earlier; that was a goof). ACQ is much better all around. Also available and effective are copper azole, copper citrate, and copper dimethyldithiocarbamate. That last is the Kodiak stuff. This information courtesy of the latest issue of _This Old House_. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.edu Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Sgrìobh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 13:26:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA04065 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:26:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26838; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:18:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:12:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26361 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:12:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.156]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26355 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:12:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from MXThompson@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4HUGa23001 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:18:28 -0500 (EST) From: MXThompson Message-ID: <6994070a.3506d576@aol.com> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:18:28 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Building information Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2501 In a message dated 98-03-11 07:45:12 EST, Caaradrbl@aol.com writes: << I'm looking for data >and concrete examples to include with my article. For example, how using >certain construction materials can save you money on heating and cooling >costs. What are some of the classic blunders that businesses make with >layout/design? >> Yikes, from being a lurker, I've made two posts in one day!! I too would be interested in any info anyone might be willing to provide re. the above. I have recently taken a job where part of what I will be doing is reviewing plans/specs for small commercial projects that banks have lent money for and inspecting the work. In order to troubleshoot or implement any significant changes, I expect that dollars-and-cents type documentation will be the most useful and expedient. Anything any one would like to share in this respect would be appreciated. (I don't have a March 12 deadline.) Thanks. Margo Thomson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 15:26:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09311 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:26:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03220; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:11:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA02836 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA02828 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:11:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26618 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:17:37 -0500 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-78-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.78]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA04877 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:17:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980311151648.006ad50c@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:16:48 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #109 In-Reply-To: <199803110700.CAA29132@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2502 Marc Rosenbaum wrote, on the subject of how to convince folks to do the right thing: "To sum up: build it (and make it work) and they will come." Marc, in my experience it takes more than that -- I feel a need to be able to inspire people, to learn how to inspire, that this part of the job is as important as the techy stuff, and, for me, a lot harder. I have friends who just built a little house and they came and looked at, among other stuff in my house, wood/solar heated hot water, and it was like pulling teeth to even get them to just put in the pipes that would be buried in the wall to later have the option for wood heated hot water, and these folks are enviroinmentalists. They have gorgeous cherry cabinets, however. So somehow we have to get to people's souls and help them find this place where an earth-honoring building is where they want to live. I find and snip lots of snippets on this list that I hope to use in talking with people. You do this talking part well, Marc, and it's hard to imagine you kept your mouth shut while they visited your house! Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 15:39:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09721 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:39:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04107; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:31:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:25:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA03599 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:25:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA03594 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:25:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.28] (blf28.acadia.net [205.217.217.28]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA18808 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:31:59 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:32:42 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: PT Wood: Oops Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2503 Oops! I forgot that Kodiak changed their formula from ACQ a while ago. When Sarah and I asked for the Material Safety Data Sheet, the CDDC susbstitute looked more hazardous than ACQ, but still less hazardous than conventional CCA. Sorry for the goof. I also forgot that Jorg has several times now given us a lead on a powdered material which is a safe alternative to pressure-treating. For us dummies, would you repeat the information one more time Jorg? Thanks. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 15:47:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09940 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:47:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05236; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:38:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:32:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04213 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:32:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04209; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:32:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11810; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:38:23 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:37:39 -0500 To: Energy Eff Building list , Green building list , POS discussion list , AESP-Net@aesp.org From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: re virus warnings, helpful www sites Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2504 98.03.11 1402est As a long term member of each of these lists (and user of computers since 1970) who has seen a spate of "virus warnings" on them over the last few weeks... Pls permit me to summarize what I have been told about checking out virus warnings, in an effort to prevent them from becoming, as Harry Rector says on the Green list, viruses themselves. In fact the act of posting this to all these lists might be considered furthering a virus to some. Sorry, judgement call. WWW sites for checking Virus RUMORS (pls bear with the repeats, I am putting all together for these lists, with some new ones for each): http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/hoax.html [was www.symantec.com/avcenter/data/] http://www.nai.com/services/support/hoax/hoax.asp [was WWW.MCAFEE.COM] http://www.europe.datafellows.com/news/hoax/ I have checkd these links out (had to clean up a couple) & they work as of today. So, before you post a warning, avoid being a sucker and turning IT into a virus by checking the rumor out on these sites. If anyone has additional sites, I would post them to our members so we can bookmark them for quick reference. Searching under virus hoaxes on the net would probably expand the universe manyfold, but the above are heavy hitters. I believe it is well established that OPENING an attachment could trigger a virus (watch out if your e mail prgm is set to auto-open attachments!), but simply receiving an e mail would not. While I strenuously urge avoidance of me too's & related cyberclog on each of these lists, I encourage anyone who feels any of the above is in error to so state either privately or to the list(s), whichever. 'Course, if you have a mac, you have much less to worry about :-> HTH jh ps, in all my years on these lists, I have only received ONE truely problem warning, and that was about telephone fraud, not computer viruses. If anyone wants to know about it, it involves *90 and has checked out as authentic by my division director wife at Virginia's Dept of Information Technology. Send me a pvt mailing & I will compile a mailing of it for those who want it. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 15:47:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09952 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:47:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05288; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:38:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:33:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04367 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:32:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.vineyard.net (mail@NS.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04348 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mail.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA23576 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:39:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 15:39:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from csy3.vineyard.net(206.166.158.45) by mail.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma023557; Wed Mar 11 15:39:06 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: "Sun Slates" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2505 The current Energy Design Update has a piece about "SunSlates" manufactured by Atlantis Energy Systems in Colfax California. These are solar electric roof shingles made by laminmating PV modules to Eternit fiber cement roofing tiles. They are being used on a Sacramento Municipal Utility District (SMUD) project in No. California. Look pretty good (especially with the hefty SMUD subsidy that comes with them). Do I remember troubles a few years back with these fiber cement shingles in freeze-thaw climates? Anybody have any experience with this? Hmm, wonder if they could do the same thing with recycled plastic slates? I'll ask. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 17:56:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA12960 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:56:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13458; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:48:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:40:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA12562 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:40:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.33]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA12552 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:40:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from RodLambert@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id WEEIa01102; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:44:51 -0500 (EST) From: RodLambert Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:44:51 EST To: gkam@pacbell.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: energy storage Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2506 George, How far off are domestic systems in your opinion. I ask because I am development managing the Second Neighborhood Group here at Ecovilage at Ithaca hoping to build by mid 1999. The first cluster of 30 homes is now built with 4 'energy centers' with dual gas boilers to supply heat to 6 -8 homes. I would think that a retrofit of these could also be done. A similar style of heating could be considered by the 2nd NBHD. I understand that the natural gas systems approaching 'marketability' are heat and electricity producers - having been very close to the ice storm emergency here, this has a certain appeal! I suppose that the real question is expected capital, and maintenance/operating costs although in general people here are willing to push the envelope a bit for the sake of demonstrating better technologies. I've enjoyed your posts and your obvious knowledge in this vital area. Rod Lambert Development Management Second Neighborhood Group Ecovillage at Ithaca NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 18:53:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA13664 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:53:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16547; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:44:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:39:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA16047 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:38:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mag1.magmacom.com (mag1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.210]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16036 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:38:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from port-2-190.magma.ca (port-2-190.magma.ca [206.191.63.190]) by mag1.magmacom.com (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA23066; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:45:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 18:45:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803112345.SAA23066@mag1.magmacom.com> X-Sender: stephen@mail.magmacom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Peter Reppe From: stephen@thermotechwindows.com (Stephen Thwaites) Subject: Re: GBlist: energy consumption for lowE coating/argon filling process Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2507 Both hard (pyrolitic) and soft (sputtered) Low e coatings are applied by flat glass makers like LOF or PPG. They would be able to help with the energy req'd to do this. Both processes are relatively low embodied energy compared to making the glass. I can't imagine gas filling requiring any significant additional energy once the gas is in the cylinder. Even multi station dispensing equipment is just a bunch of meters and LED displays. Fabricating insulated glass maybe another matter. Glass washers have smaller (?5hp at most?) motors. Larger plants would have some automated material handling (cranes, lift trucks...). The only other energy input would be sealant related. Depending on the flavour of sealing system, the sealant could have to be heated or mixed and in all cases gunned. I don't ever recall seeing anything larger than a 5hp motor in any sealant related application. The best source for energy numbers for fabricating insulating glass might be SIGMA - Sealed INsulating Glass Manufacturers Assoc. - sorry i don't have a number/site for them. good luck. Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ottawa, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 19:37:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA14198 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:37:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA18918; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:28:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:23:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA18385 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18377 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:22:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa5-p47.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.239]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id TAA21730 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:29:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35072B4B.6644@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:24:43 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: molds vs. viruses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2508 OK. Let me see if I've got this straight, we are thumbs up on mold posts, but thumbs down on virus post. I've got it now. Joke, joke, just a joke. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 20:10:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA14518 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:10:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA20776; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:02:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:56:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA20268 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:56:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from geocities.com (mail2.geocities.com [209.1.224.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA20257 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:56:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from dan-s-computer (nas-tn14-115.ix.netcom.com [207.92.182.115]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA03108; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 17:02:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980311190023.00ad4100@mail.geocities.com> X-Sender: 8774@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:00:23 -0600 To: From: Dan Willis <8774@geocities.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: GBList: common IAQ mistakes Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, iaq@mindspring.com In-Reply-To: <19980311235203.24701.qmail@dns01.ops.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2509 Just a minor clarification- I forwarded Terry's post to the dirtysocks mailing list; Terry's not a subscriber at this time. thanks, Dan Willis At 04:20 PM 3/11/98 -0500, you wrote: >************************************************* >Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:24:24 -0500 (EST) >To: dmfoley@acadia.net >From: iaq@mindspring.com >Subject: GBList: common IAQ mistakes > > >David: > >This is in response to the message on common IAQ problems that you posted at >the GBlist. I believe that Terry Brennan also forwarded it to >dirtysocks@usa.net. > >I am the executive director of a nonprofit membership organization that >provides educational opportunities and informational resources on IAQ issues. > >The answers that you have already received from Beverly at Environs >Interiors and Terry Brennan are very much in line with what I would tell you >as well. > >Just to add a few other scenarios that came to mind to add to their list, I >thought I would give you a list as well. > >I believe that in order to proactively prevent indoor environmental >problems, you must look at three key things: Building Systems, Product >Systems and Maintenance Systems. We call this the Total Systems Approach. > >Under Building Systems you would consider the things that Terry has already >told you about HVAC design. You would also take into account how you >ventilate the building during big construction/renovation projects. >Positive and negative pressurization are very important. Dr. Shaughnessy >has a very good exercise to help you understand this, if you take his series >of seminars sponsored by The University of Tulsa. > >Also under building systems, just as Terry mentioned, the placement of the >outside air intake is critical. This alone is how the whole Legionnaires >thing started back in the 70's - there was standing water by the air intake. >Other potential problems at the air intake, are the placement of the intake >too close to a loading dock. In this case you are getting diesel fumes, but >even worse, many companie have banned smoking inside, so they are sending >the smokers to the loading dock. If your intake is there, you are giving >the occupants a double dose of gasses and particulate. > >It is important to consider occupant loads when you design and build a new >building, or when you renovate an older one. Think about how staff >occupancy configurations might change. What will happen when you move >walls. Pay close attention to Terry's advise about splitting supply and >return vents. > >What is happening in your building when the cleaning crew comes? This is >the point at which the highest amount of volatile organic compounds can >enter a building due to cleaning compounds. Make sure the HVAC system is >not programmed to shut off during this critical period. Otherwise VOC's are >lingering and people who work nontraditional hours may be suffering along >with the maintenance crews themselves. > >The second component of your plan should be product systems. This is where >many of Beverly's comments come into play. When possible, you should >specify products with EPA registered antimicrobial preservatives - >especially in hot and humid climates. Topically applied antimicrobials will >not be as effective, because they will eventually wash out or wash off and >greatly decrease in efficacy. Look for broad spectrum antimicrobials that >are put into the products during the manufacturing process. > >If you don't remember anything else, remember this: Antimicrobials are not >a substitute for good maintenance procedures. When used properly and >maintained properly the efficacy rates of these types of products are very >good, but when you fail to clean carpets, change air filters, clean drain >pans, clean cooling coils, etc. you are failing to protect your investments >toward improved indoor environmental quality. Antimicrobials when used >properly, not only retard microbial growth, they can also serve as >preservatives that help enhance the life of the products. > >When possible you should choose products that are low in VOC emissions. > >If you are forced to buy interior products that are not so low in VOC >levels, then try not to move occupants in during the offgass period. If >necessary put the components in a warehouse or in the new area and heat the >area up intensely. This is called a bakeoff and will cause the offgass >process to occur more quickly - especially for irritants like formaldehyde - >a common component on finished wood. > >Lastly, but most importantly, be sure that you have educated your >maintenance crew with proper IAQ maintenance procedures. Make sure they >understand Material Data Safety Sheets, and make sure they are using >cleaning chemicals as noted on the labels. Try to buy products that serve >uultiple cleaning purposes, to avoid mixing chemicals and VOCs and make sure >your building systems are in tandm with cleaning crew schedules. > >Valerie Walker Bennett >Executive Director >Envirosense Consortium, Inc. >100 Chastain Center Blvd. #165 >Kennesaw, GA 30144 >(800) 856-0767 >(770) 421-9512 >(770) 421-9503 - FAX >iaq@mindspring.com > >************************************************************ > >List/Digest Commands > >SUBSCRIBE - subscribes you to the mailing list. > >UNSUBSCRIBE - unsubscribes you from the mailing list. > >SUBSCRIBE DIGEST - subscribes you to the digest. > >UNSUBSCRIBE DIGEST - unsubscribes you from the digest. > >HELP - send you a help file on using the list. > >To issue a command/request to the server: >Send a message to DIRTYSOCKS@USA.NET with the command >you wish executed as the subject of the message. > >************************************************************ > http://pw1.netcom.com/~dvwillis http://pw1.netcom.com/~dvwillis/listserv.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 11 20:24:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA14654 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:24:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA22039; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:16:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:09:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA21064 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:09:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA21054 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 20:09:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (xyp106p19.ltec.net [206.158.213.29]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA27166 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:02:31 -0600 Message-ID: <35075063.3D44@navix.net> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 19:02:59 -0800 From: gerald martin Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net Organization: Eby-Martin Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-Navix (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: energy storage References: <3506B5B3.643D@pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2510 Dear George Kamburoff, I enjoyed your last letter covering many topics such as fuel cells, photovoltaics, etc. I was wondering particularly if you or anyone else out there knows how to make one of these methane digesters at home. Also, would the waste product still contain the heavy metals that usually makes it detrimental for crops? We have a composting toilet, but our growing family is exceeding the limits of its use. We are considering using the methane (which is heavier than air and "sinks") to cook with. I am not sure how to come up with a special toilet upstairs that would allow the methane to be run down for this cooking usage. Any ideas out there? Are there any chances for an explosion??? Seems this would be a free way of reducing the amounts of other, more commonly used fuels for cooking. Also, on the side, been watching the CCA lumber problem and, well... it's too late for us to go to ACQ pressure treated lumber as the CCA is already in place. Does anyone know how to cover or seal away this CCA POISON from the interior air of a house? The 2x10 lumber is located at the baseboards of the entire house. Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net 402-545-2109 > Integrated with other sources of supply, such as wind power, small > hydro, digestion of biomass (probably from human and animal waste), and > hydrogen from algae, we could build a powerplant with no pollution at > all that exactly fits the characteristics of a local area. In fact, the > anaerobic digestors would also give us stabilized nutrients for crops, > all from our waste products. It's an ideal way to get power to the 50% > of the world that doesn't have it yet, without using all our petroleum > and fouling the air. George Kamburoff > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 00:34:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA18565 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:34:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA00619; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:25:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:20:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA00068 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:19:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA00063 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from MXThompson@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4NTNa14703 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:25:38 -0500 (EST) From: MXThompson Message-ID: <60cbfaa3.350771d4@aol.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:25:38 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Diagnostics Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2511 Dear Mike and Terry, Thanks for replying. Very soon after I posted this, "A-PRO PEST CONTROL" pulled up to do their apparently monthly spraying for ants and insects. I showed him "the stuff" and he did indeed say it was "processed" termite droppings. I apologize for starting out with so many questions, but does anyone know what "Talstar" (a granular insectide) is? He gave me the MSDS, but when I can hardly pronounce a word, e.g., bifenthrin, dimethylcyclopropane carboxylate, I'm sure at a loss for what it is/means. It doesn't sound like something I'd like to eat for breakfast. Margo Thompson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 00:57:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA18719 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:57:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA01204; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:49:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:43:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA00921 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:43:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA00916 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 00:43:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (xyp106p16.ltec.net [206.158.213.26]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA14332 for ; Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:35:57 -0600 Message-ID: <35079110.1F84@navix.net> Date: Wed, 11 Mar 1998 23:38:56 -0800 From: gerald martin Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net Organization: Eby-Martin Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-Navix (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Building information Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2512 >I'm looking for data >and concrete examples to include with my article. For example, how using >certain construction materials can save you money on heating and cooling >costs. What are some of the classic blunders that businesses make with >layout/design? Dear Steve, Considering design materials for homes to save companies money or contribute to greater profits, think indigenously. If there is an abundance of a particular type of material in your area, then it will be easily accessible and cheap. If one lives in a rocky area, build a rock house. If one lives in the forest, build a log house. Gerry and I live in the plains area among great acreages of farmland, so we have been built a plastered straw-bale house. Our walls have an R-factor of about 50. There are of course many other types of alternative building methods for construction. Adobe, rammed earth, cob, and cordwood are but a few of them. Saving money on heating and cooling costs runs right in there with layout/design. This goes back to the passive solar design of houses where the house actually becomes the collector. The thing to remember is that EVERY HOUSE IS A SOLAR HOUSE. South windows are what one needs for an efficient passive solar house. North windows are almost a total loss as they gain zero sunlight and they lose a great amount of heat. Also having the glaring sun beating in a west window on an already hot summer evening just overworks the air conditioner and runs up the utility bill. East windows tend to be a bit nicer to have because they are the first to gain those welcomed sunrays while drinking the morning coffee at the kitchen table. The keys to an efficient passive solar home are these: thermal mass, window area and placement, and proper overhangs..... THERMAL MASS: Thermal mass is the heat sink for storing and maintaining temperatures in the home. The ideal thickness for mass materials is 4-5 inches. Thermal mass is made up of the combination of WALLS (plaster, brick, adobe, rammed earth, stone, masonry fireplace or other mass products are far superior to gypsum board), FLOORS (brick, tile, etc. are far superior than carpeting or linoleum- which actually insulate and isolate the thermal mass from the interior of the rooms instead of conducting it), and FURNISHINGS (which are minimal unless they have a lot of thermal mass in them). WINDOW AREA AND PLACEMENT: There is a specific glass-to-mass ratio that makes for an efficient design. The amount of glass on the south wall should equal 7% of the homes total square footage. (Example: 2,000 Sq. Ft.= 140 Sq. Ft. of glass). This 7% amount of glass should not be exceeded or overheating will occur. Note that this 7% applies to a conventional home with wall to wall carpeting. If more glass area is desired, additional thermal mass must be added to compensate. The 7% is NET Sq. Ft.; the total window area less the trim. Multiplying the entire window by .8 will get the net glass area. (Example: A 3'x5' window is 15 Sq. Ft.- 15x.8=12 Sq. Ft.) East and north glass should not exceed 4% of the total Sq. Ft. West glass should not exceed 2% of total Sq. Ft. Each design starts with the 7% of south glazing (NET). To increase beyond this we must add thermal mass usually starting with the floor and then the walls. An additional 1 sq. ft. of south glass may be added for every: 5.5 sq. ft. of sunlit thermal mass floor (the max. amount of sunlit floor is 1.5x the south window area) 40 sq. ft. of floor that's not in direct sunshine 8.3 sq. ft. of thermal mass wall The recommended maximum amount of glass on the south side for direct gain is 12-15% PROPER OVERHANGS: Keeping the sun out in the summertime is as important as letting it all in in the wintertime. Overhangs at the proper length will allow this to work at all times of the year. Although there is a formula that exists (if I remember right it can be obtained from the Passive Solar Industries Council 1511 K St, NW Suite 600 Washington, DC 20005 (202) 628-7400 Fax (202) 393-5043 but it's been a few years since I contacted them- they also have a wonderful computer program called Energy Analysis Software For Homebuilders) the idea is to keep the sun out of the windows when the sun is at it's highest (summer solstice) and to let it all in when it's at its lowest (winter solstice). Usually it is considered best to put the living areas on the warmer south half of the house, and the bedrooms and storage areas on the cooler north half. The kitchen usually generates its own heat from all the major appliances so it is best suited for the northeast corner (the coldest corner of the house) with the dining room next to it on the southeast corner (remember the early morning coffee I mentioned earlier?). Hope this helps. Much of this information (and much more) can be found at www.epsea.org Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net 402-545-2109 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 03:59:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA19840 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 03:59:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA05804; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 03:51:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 03:45:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA05500 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 03:45:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA05488 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 03:45:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA09318 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 03:51:27 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 03:25:18 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: energy storage Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2513 98.03.12 0319est This is a fascinating thread. I for one would be very interested pushing the envelope with this technology. I have a home & 2 other commercial/residential buildings to play with. There is an energy distribution (conventional large power plants vs decentralized neighborhood/in-home) discussion going on on another list. Fuel cell & other related-purpose techs could be a big factor in that picture. Keep it coming, experts. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 08:52:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA21441 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:52:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12028; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:43:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:37:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11489 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:37:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11483 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:37:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA103028; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 06:42:47 -0700 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 06:42:46 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: gerald martin Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: energy storage In-Reply-To: <35075063.3D44@navix.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2514 You said: We have a composting toilet, but our growing family is exceeding the limits of its use. We are considering using the methane (which is heavier than air and "sinks") to cook with. _______________________________________________________________________________ Sharon: We too have a waterless toilet. I think there is NO hope of using your methane from it, since so little is produced under normal circumstances, unless you have an exceptionally huge family (ie. many households). Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 09:14:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21738 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:14:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13053; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:05:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:00:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12559 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:00:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12554 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:00:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA10309 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:06:37 -0500 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-113-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.113]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA08009 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:06:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980312084158.006b6244@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:41:58 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #110 In-Reply-To: <199803112032.PAA04276@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2515 Re fuel cells: I snipped: " But many of the early systems will probably use a hydrocarbon fuel, such as methane, which has four hydrogens and one carbon atom, and a fuel reformer, which oxidizes the carbon to leave the hydrogen. We have sufficient hydrogen in methane for many hundreds of years. We keep finding the stuff. " Oxidized carbon sounds like CO2, thereby making natural gas driven fuel cells polluters? At what efficiencies do they operate; i.e., more CO2 emissions or less relative to other ways to burn methane per unit energy out? Would we be installing in the hopes we find a way to use renewably generated hydrogen soon?.... Is this realistic? Please illumine my ignorance in this area. Thank you. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 09:54:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22236 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:54:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15152; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:45:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:39:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14561 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:39:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14557 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:39:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA17977; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 06:45:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3507F444.89AFFFB1@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 06:42:12 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" CC: Green building list Subject: Re: GBlist: energy storage References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2516 Hi I apologize I've not been able too follow any thread too closely. Some flu has invaded and I've been busy being nurse and soon patient. I wanted to mention that there are areas where there has traditionally been a large network of decentralized power production. I think Ontario has remnants of this where small communitites have played a continued role in power production despite the large provincial utility. Legislation in Ontario reflects this history where the province is mandated to play a role by having to purchase surplus power. I know this legislation forms a key development piece because it becomes possible for segments of communities or for larger developments to look at incorporating pv without penalty. Anyone know of other examples of towns or areas historically independent of the larger utilities. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA wrote: > 98.03.12 0319est > > This is a fascinating thread. I for one would be very interested pushing > the envelope with this technology. I have a home & 2 other > commercial/residential buildings to play with. > > There is an energy distribution (conventional large power plants vs > decentralized neighborhood/in-home) discussion going on on another list. > Fuel cell & other related-purpose techs could be a big factor in that > picture. > > Keep it coming, experts. > jh > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 10:08:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22404 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:08:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15960; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:59:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:53:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15478 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:53:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.36]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15474 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:53:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from Schawe@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4ONEa26753 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:59:20 -0500 (EST) From: Schawe Message-ID: Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:59:20 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Building information Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2517 Sharon Eby-Martin wrote a lot of really good stuff on passive solar design, with which I concur, although I am certainly no expert: >EVERY HOUSE IS A SOLAR HOUSE. >South windows are what one needs for an efficient passive solar house. >North windows are almost a total loss as they gain zero >sunlight and they lose a great amount of heat. Also having the glaring >sun beating in a west window on an already hot summer evening just >overworks the air conditioner and runs up the utility bill. East >windows tend to be a bit nicer to have because they are the first to >gain those welcomed sunrays while drinking the morning coffee at the >kitchen table. > >The keys to an efficient passive solar home are these: thermal mass, >window area and placement, and proper overhangs..... All great comments, but mostly for heating climates. For passive COOLING climates, north windows are pretty darn good. They also give a nice even light much desired by artists, architects, etc. - anyone needing daylighting for visual tasks requiring color correction, etc. Here in Houston north facing windows are a real avantage. And with insulating glass, even our onece-a-year freeze is of no concern. And NO freezes this year, yet. :) Phil P.S. Are the formulas for % of glass in widespread acceptance? I didn't know passive solar design could be reduced to such simple formulas. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 10:17:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22512 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:17:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16760; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:09:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:03:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16244 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:03:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16238 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA36644; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:08:01 -0700 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:08:01 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: job opportunity, Victoria BC Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2518 Any ecologically inclined draftsperson, ideally someone who is trying to walk the talk of a conserver lifestyle and sustainable housing, should contact me off the list re: a single family home for a very committed client (a personal friend), for whom I will be the consultant. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 10:19:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22555 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:19:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17064; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:11:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:05:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16394 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:05:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16386 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:05:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.101]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 0748000 ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:13:04 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980312100323.006951ac@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:03:23 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: rot resistance wood Cc: Speireag In-Reply-To: <199803112032.PAA04276@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2519 >Black locust is an excellent alternative. I believe it will outlast CCA, >ACQ, or Kodiak-treated wood. I have black locust posts in the ground in >Vermont that have been there about 17 years and are showing only moderate >degradation at the outer surfaces--in the below-grade portion. Locust is an excellent choice. My father-in-law's hunting cabin in northern PA was built on locust posts in 1936. Several times a year a spring overflows and water runs under the building and the posts are still sound. Locust will also regenerate quite readily from the roots, so cutting one down will not necessarily kill the tree. Another rot resistant wood to consider is catalpa, it grows around here, not sure about New England though. Other rot resistant woods are osage orange, sassafras, and cedar. The next level of durability is white oak, cherry, larch, honey locust, and black walnut. Check with your local sawmill. They should be able to cut you just what you need. Also you can ask around in the local farm community. Many farmers keep a supply of various woods in their barn (I do at least). If a farmer is cutting his own locust posts from larger trees and using round posts, the bottom of the tree may be too larger to use for a post and be avialable for lumber. I have heard and read many other tales about duribility being affected by the time of year the logs are cut. I just took a quick look through a book called Farm Forestry from 1916. It states "Many claim if posts are cut in winter, when the "sap is down", they will be more durable than if cut in summer." The book goes on to refute this claim and says that "a post would naturally be more durable if cut in summer." It also states that seasoned wood will have better durability than green. If used green allow for shrinkage. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 10:28:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22621 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:28:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17710; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:20:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:14:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17300 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:14:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17291 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:14:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA43362; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:18:56 -0700 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:18:56 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Schawe Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: solar north windows In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2520 You said: >North windows are almost a total loss as they gain zero >sunlight and they lose a great amount of heat. ___________________________________________________________________________ The above is not necessarily true. With experience, you will find projects where north windows will get net passive solar heat gain.I am sure that there are many examples beyond the ones that I know. Our home is one, an office building is another, both not by design, but rather by default. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 10:57:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA23018 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:57:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18867; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:49:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:43:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18422 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:43:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18418 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:43:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ppp-206-170-29-227.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.227]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id HAA05930; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:49:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <35080476.7AF0@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:51:18 -0800 From: George Kamburoff Reply-To: gkam@pacbell.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-PBWG (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andrew M. Shapiro" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: fuel cells & methane Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2521 Andy, You wrote: "Oxidized carbon sounds like CO2, thereby making natural gas driven fuel cells polluters? At what efficiencies do they operate; i.e., more CO2 emissions or less relative to other ways to burn methane per unit energy out? Would we be installing in the hopes we find a way to use renewably generated hydrogen soon?.... Is this realistic? Please illumine my ignorance in this area. Thank you." Yes, it is realistic. Unlike internal combustion, fuel cells do not produce carbon monoxide or oxides of nitrogen (no pressure or high temperatures). If you are going to use our cleanest hydrocarbon fuel, methane, fuel cells are by far the most efficient (50-70%) and the cleanest. There are high-temp fuel cell types, as well, but they operate at low pressures (or ambient) so NOx should be very low with them, too. The methane bridge is a good way to get fuel cells started, while we devise other sources of pure hydrogen. gk ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 11:02:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23082 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:02:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19240; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:53:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:48:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18757 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:48:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18751 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:48:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA9-p11.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.203]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA26497 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:54:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35080414.2F8D@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:49:40 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: rot resistance wood References: <3.0.3.32.19980312100323.006951ac@cyberia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2522 Marcus Sheffer wrote: Other rot resistant woods are osage orange, sassafras, and > cedar. The next level of durability is white oak, cherry, larch, honey > locust, and black walnut. As an avid woodworker, I find it hard to imagine burying Cherry or Black Walnut, of nearly any description, in the ground, but the top level you mention are reasonable choices. I am curious if there is any documented longevity tests out there for comparison purposes. My experience with Black Locust is much like your hunting camp story, I used Black Locust posts for a shed 28 years ago and they are still sound. Unfortunately niether instance adds up to true certification. It states "Many claim if posts are cut in > winter, when the "sap is down", they will be more durable than if cut in > summer." The book goes on to refute this claim and says that "a post would > naturally be more durable if cut in summer." Did they say why the post would "naturally" be more durable if cut in summer? The sap issue makes some sense to me, the added sugar/starch content of a summer cut post would presumably provide an attractive growth medium or ready food supply for various pests and parasites. I would think the same would apply for green as opposed to seasoned wood. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 11:17:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23258 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:17:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20507; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:09:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:03:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA20020 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20011 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:03:08 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LMZ10230; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:04:52 EST To: msheffer@cyberia.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:17:18 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Re: rot resistance wood Message-ID: <19980312.101818.3662.4.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980312100323.006951ac@cyberia.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,5-6,10-11,17-18,21-28,30-83,85-93 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2523 A wood we very much wish you would/could consider is Texas Mountain Juniper (mistakenly called cedar down here). This tree is a uncontrollable blight upon the Texas Hill Country region. It has several negative attributes as a tree and several positive attributes as a building material. The negative attributes are that the tree grows fast like a weed and will take over the landscape, the male tree emits a powerful irritant pollen in the dead of winter, and it takes very much needed water out of the ground and retains it in the body of the tree. The positive attributes are that the wood is hard as iron, insects absolutely will not eat this wood and it will finish quite attractively with a white grain tinted with stripes of red grain. It does tend to not grow very tall with heights along the size of a one story building although there are exceptions to this rule where water is readily available. If there were any justice in the world the State of Texas would implement a clear cutting policy on this tree. The only downside to this policy would be a problem of erosion. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:03:23 -0500 Marcus Sheffer writes: >>Black locust is an excellent alternative. I believe it will outlast >CCA, >>ACQ, or Kodiak-treated wood. I have black locust posts in the ground >in >>Vermont that have been there about 17 years and are showing only >moderate >>degradation at the outer surfaces--in the below-grade portion. > >Locust is an excellent choice. My father-in-law's hunting cabin in >northern PA was built on locust posts in 1936. Several times a year a >spring overflows and water runs under the building and the posts are >still >sound. Locust will also regenerate quite readily from the roots, so >cutting one down will not necessarily kill the tree. Another rot >resistant >wood to consider is catalpa, it grows around here, not sure about New >England though. Other rot resistant woods are osage orange, >sassafras, and >cedar. The next level of durability is white oak, cherry, larch, >honey >locust, and black walnut. > >Check with your local sawmill. They should be able to cut you just >what >you need. Also you can ask around in the local farm community. Many >farmers keep a supply of various woods in their barn (I do at least). >If a >farmer is cutting his own locust posts from larger trees and using >round >posts, the bottom of the tree may be too larger to use for a post and >be >avialable for lumber. > >I have heard and read many other tales about duribility being affected >by >the time of year the logs are cut. I just took a quick look through a >book >called Farm Forestry from 1916. It states "Many claim if posts are >cut in >winter, when the "sap is down", they will be more durable than if cut >in >summer." The book goes on to refute this claim and says that "a post >would >naturally be more durable if cut in summer." It also states that >seasoned >wood will have better durability than green. If used green allow for >shrinkage. > > >===================================================================== >Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services >Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 >1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 >Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com >===================================================================== >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 11:24:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23367 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:24:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21036; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:15:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:10:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA20604 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:10:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20588 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:10:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.4]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 0800000 ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:17:47 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980312110807.0068fd1c@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:08:07 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #111 Cc: gerald martin In-Reply-To: <199803120700.CAA02998@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2524 >I was wondering particularly if you or anyone else >out there knows how to make one of these methane digesters at home. >Also, would the waste product still contain the heavy metals that >usually makes it detrimental for crops? We have a composting toilet, >but our growing family is exceeding the limits of its use. We are >considering using the methane (which is heavier than air and "sinks") to >cook with. I am not sure how to come up with a special toilet upstairs >that would allow the methane to be run down for this cooking usage. Any >ideas out there? Are there any chances for an explosion??? Seems this >would be a free way of reducing the amounts of other, more commonly used >fuels for cooking. > In regards to the heavy metals issue, hopefully they are not coming from you or your family. Heavy metals in human sewage sludge from the sewage treatment plant usually come from commercial and industrial sources. Your own "sludge" should be relatively pristeene (sp?). Concerning the use of methane I recall some agricultural projects (appropriatie technology stuff from the late 70s & early 80s) that used manure in a methane digestor. Your cooperative extension office may have some information that you could adapt residentially. Another potnetial source of info is ATTRA (Appropriate Technology Transfer for Rural Areas) 800-346-9140. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 12:23:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24305 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:23:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25209; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:15:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:09:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24473 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:08:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24461 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:08:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ppp-207-104-158-3.wnck11.pacbell.net [207.104.158.3]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id JAA22933; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:14:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <35081872.3524@pacbell.net> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:16:34 -0800 From: George Kamburoff Reply-To: gkam@pacbell.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-PBWG (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gs11531@navix.net CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: energy storage References: <3506B5B3.643D@pacbell.net> <35075063.3D44@navix.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2525 Sharon and Gerald, Digestors will probably not be appropriate for your use. Simple anaerobic digestors work best on manure from ruminants. Herbivores produce waste not containing the proteins and other stuff found in waste from meat-eaters. Their waste has cellulosic material, which can serve as a substrate for the bacteria which do the conversion. Dairy cow manure is best, since it has a natural balance of constituents, with fewer antibiotics than beef cattle, which are pumped up on them and fed stuff like newspapers and some of their own manure. Unfortunately, digestors are usually not practical for one home. You will not get sufficient waste from one family to do anything with, even if you use a garbage grinder to add vegetable material to the slurry. You are working with living critters here, and sometimes slight changes in temperature, feedstock, pH, carbon/nitrogen balance, and other factors will shut them off or kill them off. And the gas produced is low quality (typically 600 Btu/cubic foot, versus 1000 for methane), because it's usually about 40% carbon dioxide, 60% methane. Then, you have to strip out hydrogen sulfide. Small (GOBAR) digestors are in use in India, fed from community stocks of animal and human waste. They use the resultant low-quality biogas for cooking, reducing the need for firewood and the terrible smoke problems the wives were exposed to. If you want, I can get some references for you. My own knowledge of the technology is 15 years old. Good luck. gkamburoff ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 12:33:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24431 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:33:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26081; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:25:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:19:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA25402 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:19:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA25391 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:19:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id LAA0000014213; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:25:22 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980312172740.00681354@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:27:40 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: rot resistant wood Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2526 I've been away so missed the beginning of this link, but it reminds me of a question I posted a couple of months ago regarding the use of different species of wood lots timber for building. I received lots of answers but found the most helpful one to be in my own library, a book on Greenwood furniture-making I'd forgotten about--offers good lists with about any species you can think of and their characteristics. Its at the cabin just now, so can't give the exact title, but if anyone out there is interested I will get it this weekend. Post me privately please. Osage Orange (known as 'Hedge' around here) is the most durable wood, but it grows crazy. Is very difficult to find long straight posts more than 8 feet long, therefore is generally used for fencing (lasts forever, about). Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 12:36:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24494 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26359; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:28:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:22:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA25697 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:22:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA25691 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:21:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA20610 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:27:31 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005A705; Thu, 12 Mar 98 11:17:01 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 11:25:58 -0600 Message-ID: <0005A705.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Durability and framing To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2527 For those considering substituting steel studs for wood: "A wood-framed wall with R-19 insulation in the wall cavities has an overall value of R-17; a steel-framed wall with similar insulation has a value of R-10. To compensate for heat loss when steel framing is used, the National Energy Code of Canada requires a 2-by-6 steel-framed wall to have 2 inches of rigid foam sheathing insulation on the outside. Field studies indicate theat the foam insulation, which may add $1,000 to the cost of a 1,200 square-foot home in Canada, does not fully compensate for heat loss, due to losses at wall intersections and around windows and doors, where there are more framing members. Thermographic testing in the U.S. has shown that, even with foam insulation, a steel-framed house loses heat by conduction through the studs to the roof and foundation." The full report is available at http://www.cwc.ca/thermal.html - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 12:47:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24637 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:47:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27031; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:38:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:33:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26609 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:33:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26605 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:33:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from alee (pdx59-i48-40.teleport.com [204.202.167.246]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA01093; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:38:56 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <35081CF4.41A8@teleport.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 09:35:48 -0800 From: A Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andrew M. Shapiro" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #110 References: <3.0.1.32.19980312084158.006b6244@together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2528 Andrew M. Shapiro wrote: > > Re fuel cells: I snipped: > " But many of the early systems will probably use a hydrocarbon fuel, such > as methane, which has four hydrogens and one carbon atom, and a fuel > reformer, which oxidizes the carbon to leave the hydrogen. We have > sufficient hydrogen in methane for many hundreds of years. We keep finding > the stuff. " > > Oxidized carbon sounds like CO2, thereby making natural gas driven fuel > cells polluters? At what efficiencies do they operate; i.e., more CO2 > emissions or less relative to other ways to burn methane per unit energy > out? Would we be installing in the hopes we find a way to use renewably > generated hydrogen soon?.... Is this realistic? Please illumine my > ignorance in this area. Thank you. > > Andy Shapiro > Energy Balance, Inc > Montpelier VT USA > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ Yes they produce CO2. Other pollutants are pretty much negligible. Efficiency, and therefore CO2/energy output, varies by technology and whether the waste heat is used. Efficiencies are in the range of 45% to 85% if waste heat is recovered and used. Generally, even the least efficient fuel cells are more efficient than conventional combustion devices. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 12:57:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24765 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:57:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27648; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:48:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:42:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA27242 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:42:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27236 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:42:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:42:28 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 13493 invoked by uid 0); 12 Mar 1998 17:49:29 -0000 Received: from ppp-8.herd.org (HELO ?205.232.94.22?) (198.175.11.201) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 12 Mar 1998 17:49:29 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Diagnostics Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2529 Margo asked about some "stuff" she found: On closer inspection, it turned out to be a sandy granular material (light brown and black specks). So, I vaccuumed it up. A week later it was back -- about a teaspoonful in exactly the same spot. _______________ Sure sounds like carpenter ants to me. When they chew tunnels in foam insulation they carry off the "sawdust" and along with ant feces, dump it in a certain disposal area, and it looks as you describe. Presumably they would do the same thing with damp wood or other building materials, and you describe the roof as probably having leakage problems. I've used borax to try to kill the ants, but they usually come back. And if you aren't bothered by ants walking around, then I would suspect that a higher priority would be to repair the roof than to worry about the ants slowly chewing up the already rotted portions. I've heard that if the wood is dry and sound, they will not chew into it. C Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 13:39:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25311 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:39:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00256; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:30:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:24:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA29809 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:24:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29805 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:24:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA01025 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:31:00 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:09:31 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: solar north windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2530 98.03.12 1307est Not to be too ungreen, but isn't northern light (not light-s) rather special in terms of color, etc? Isn't that the main reason for having northern windows other than in mostly cooling climates? jh >You said: > >>North windows are almost a total loss as they gain zero >>sunlight and they lose a great amount of heat. >___________________________________________________________________________ >The above is not necessarily true. With experience, you will find projects ... >Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 14:11:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA25824 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:11:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01760; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:58:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:53:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA01290 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:53:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01286 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:53:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA32027; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:59:52 -0500 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-84-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.84]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA20944; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:59:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980312135825.006bdaec@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:58:25 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: "Radiance" Paint Cc: ktohinak@veic.org In-Reply-To: <199803120700.CAA02998@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2531 Low-e wall paint -- "Radiance" brand paint I spoke with a friend who runs a building supply house and he was very high on Radiance low-e paint, which is an interior paint meant to save energy. I got curious and had literature sent, which is well designed and included an "engineering guide" and testimonials. The claim is for an emissivity of about 0.65 as compared to 0.9 for typical paint. On a wall with an interior of 60F on a "cold day" and interior of 70F, they calculate a reduction in radiative transfer from interior surfaces to the wall of about 30%, which looks reasonable for their assumptions. OK. However, my recollection is that transfer to the inside surface of the wall is about half convective/conductive and half radiative, with normal surfaces, so the reduction in total loss to the wall would then be more like 15%, if radiation and other modes were additive. But as you cool the wall surface with the low-e paint, the convective transfer goes up, so the savings would be even less. Leaving the issue of increased convection aside for the moment, if the walls represent 15% of the total load, there might be a reduction of 2% in the total load, even at a 30% radiative loss reduction. But the big question is why is the wall only 60 degrees? If the wall inside surface is 60F, and it is 70 inside and 30 outside, the inside air film has 1/4 the insulative value of the whole business, which would mean the wall is not insulated and that's where you should start, for a number of reasons. And I wonder about the emissivity as dust builds up on the wall. Anyone ever measured emissivity of a low-e surface after it gets dirty? If the walls are even moderately insulated, the interior temperature would be higher, perhaps as high as 69F for an interior of 72F and outside of 30F, which would result in a radiative heat transfer about 20 times lower from interior room surfaces to the inside of the exterior wall than to the 60F wall surface. Under these conditions the emissivity of the walls becomes unimportant and you waste your money on Radiance paint. Has anyone else ever looked into this product? Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 14:47:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA27077 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:47:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA04270; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:37:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:31:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03835 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:31:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA03824 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:31:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sb14.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.175]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA05977 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:38:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35083877.4BAC@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:33:11 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: HRV evals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2532 Has EBN or anyone else done any evaluations on various ventilation units? Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 15:00:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA27306 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:00:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05113; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:48:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:42:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA04613 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA04607 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:42:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA107746; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:45:46 -0700 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 12:45:45 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "David M. Foley" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: PT Wood: Oops In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2533 You said" I also forgot that Jorg has several times now given us a lead on a powdered material which is a safe alternative to pressure-treating. For us dummies, would you repeat the information one more time Jorg? Thanks. _____________________________________________________________________________ If someone is really interested and cannot find it in the archives, or I get enough private e-mails, I will repost. Otherwise please try the archives. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 15:12:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA27586 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:12:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06243; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:03:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:58:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05613 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:58:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.rapidramp.net (mail.incredibyte.net [207.99.72.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05608 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:58:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803121958.OAA05608@solstice.crest.org> Received: from default [209.58.6.155] by mail.rapidramp.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.02) id A1D8B7D01F8; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:13:12 EST Reply-To: From: "Office of Sustainable Design & Construction" To: Subject: GBlist: recycled brick in NYC Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 14:13:30 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2534 Does anyone know of a manufacturer or distributor of recylced-content brick in the new york area?? I checked on REDI but didn't get very far . . . Thanks, Jennifer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 16:39:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA29194 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:39:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12211; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:28:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:24:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11696 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:23:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11685 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:23:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA01989 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:29:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-29.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.157) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma001984; Thu Mar 12 15:29:28 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980312144504.0070a8ac@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:28:28 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Solar Overhangs / PSIC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2535 In good article on topic of passive solar by: Sharon Eby-Martin 402-545-2109 > she wrote: >PROPER OVERHANGS: Keeping the sun out in the summertime is as important >as letting it all in in the wintertime. Overhangs at the proper length >will allow this to work at all times of the year. Although there is a >formula that exists --->> Cool tool -- from my associate at CREST, Chris Gronbeck: ~~~~~~~~~ (note: NEW! This release is written in JavaScript, which allows the calculations to run on your local PC instead of CREST internet server) Or check out: ---------- >if I remember right it can be obtained from the >Passive Solar Industries Council 1511 K St, NW Suite 600 Washington, >DC 20005 (202) 628-7400 Fax (202) 393-5043 but it's been a few years >since I contacted them- they also have a wonderful computer program >called Energy Analysis Software For Homebuilders) <<-- close but incorrect ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ** The old DOS-based program is "BuilderGuide" and a newer Windows based version developed as a beta-product may be available for residential. However, we recommend using Solaequis "WIN-guide" or the well known, EEBA-award winning REM/Design ** The PSIC can be reached on line at or via e-mail at: The most up to date software provided through PSIC, was developed by NREL and is called "Energy-10" / Designing Low Energy Buildings. Low Energy Building Design info: E-10 is for sale via PSIC (and also on-line via EEBA's bookstore and OIKOS) E-10 is complex and we recommend you consider taking the workshop -- for example if one was to either select a regional "DLEB" training -- or was attending the ASES conference or EEBA conference as a pre-conference workshop. Of course, (shameless plug...) you could always consult with a building environmental science professional (consultant) who could take your plans and provide a complete analysis and recommendation on the buildings' optimal fenestration configuration, as well as overall energy and "green" performance potential. | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 17:58:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA00234 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:58:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18724; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:49:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:44:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA18179 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:44:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18174 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:43:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.49]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 1130400 ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:51:52 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980312174209.0068ea40@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:42:09 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: Fuel Cells In-Reply-To: <199803122124.QAA11720@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2536 >Oxidized carbon sounds like CO2, thereby making natural gas driven fuel >cells polluters? At what efficiencies do they operate; i.e., more CO2 >emissions or less relative to other ways to burn methane per unit energy >out? Would we be installing in the hopes we find a way to use renewably >generated hydrogen soon?.... Is this realistic? Please illumine my >ignorance in this area. Thank you. My understanding is that fuel cells have an efficiency of about 80% if both the electrical and thermal energy is used. Compared to most baseline power plants at 30% (the gas-fired plants are somewhat more efficient). In most senarios on how to get to a renewables based energy system, natural gas is considered the major "bridge" fuel because the infrastructure for it is similar to that needed for hydrogen and it is the least polluting of the major fossil fuels. Don't know how long this will take. Higher energy prices would help. Including externalities in the price? Energy taxes? Read yesterday that gasoline prices were at an all-time low taking inflation into account, this is good news to most folks I guess . . . rather depressing to me. Sorry, I rant again. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 18:14:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA00537 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 18:14:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19419; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 18:05:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:59:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA19064 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:58:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19058 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 17:58:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (gl-ppp09.hevanet.com [204.119.60.29]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19618; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:05:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <350869BB.C0A09A35@hevanet.com> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:03:31 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: solar north windows References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2537 Hi, Jim-- One observation about north light drawn from my house design days--it's quite bluish in color, especially when the sky is clear. Blue light makes spaces look cooler, literally. Most people like spaces that look warmer, e.g., they prefer incandescent lighting and sunlight and firelight. Skin certainly looks better under warm light than bluish light. Best. Mike Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA wrote: > 98.03.12 1307est > > Not to be too ungreen, but isn't northern light (not light-s) rather > special in terms of color, etc? Isn't that the main reason for having > northern windows other than in mostly cooling climates? > jh > > >You said: > > > >>North windows are almost a total loss as they gain zero > >>sunlight and they lose a great amount of heat. > >___________________________________________________________________________ > >The above is not necessarily true. With experience, you will find projects > ... > >Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 19:26:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA01357 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:26:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24144; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:13:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA23661 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:12:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mag1.magmacom.com (mag1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.210]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA23645 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:12:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from port115.magma.ca (port115.magma.ca [206.191.5.115]) by mag1.magmacom.com (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id TAA06619 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:19:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:19:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803130019.TAA06619@mag1.magmacom.com> X-Sender: stephen@mail.magmacom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: stephen@thermotechwindows.com (Stephen Thwaites) Subject: GBlist: solar north windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2538 >> >>>North windows are almost a total loss as they gain zero >>>sunlight and they lose a great amount of heat. >>___________________________________________________________________________ >>The above is not necessarily true. With experience, you will find projects >... >>Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski > Using the Specific version (specific to a city and an orientation) of the Canadian Energy Rating (ER) you can actually look at the net energy flow through a north facing window. Here in Ottawa our best window - a triple galzed fixed window - is not a net gain, but it is almost as efficient as a 2x6 wall. When you think about that its actually not too bad Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ottawa Ontario (currently about -10C or 14F) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 21:37:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA03279 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:37:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA28967; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:28:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:22:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA28394 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:22:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28389; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:22:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (1Cust236.tnt6.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.120.236]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA10737; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 18:28:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803130228.SAA10737@germany.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: wliebold@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:26:22 -0500 To: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Warren Liebold Subject: GBlist: Toilet/Showerhead Surveys Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2539 After much procrastination, I finally had an incentive to finish posting a web page with the summaries of the LA, MWD and NYC low-consumption toilet customer satisfaction surveys, as well as a smaller survey of water efficiency professionals and a number of useful links. It won't be winning any design awards, but the info is there if you need it. http://home.earthlink.net/~wliebold/ Warren Liebold wliebold@earthlink.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 21:38:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA03296 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:38:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29080; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:29:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:24:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA28574 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:24:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from Empire.Net (Empire.Net [208.223.32.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28568 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:23:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from empire.net (Nashua-ppp49.Empire.Net [208.223.32.149]) by Empire.Net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA12295 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:30:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35089434.44B181C3@empire.net> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:04:37 -0500 From: Aus X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuild Subject: GBlist: Energy Storage? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2540 On Wednesday, March 11, Rod Lambert wrote: > I understand that the natural gas systems approaching 'marketability' are heat and electricity producers - having > been very close to the ice storm emergency here, this has a certain appeal! > It is my understanding that cogeneration systems of this type are NOT stand-alone, i.e. they are grid-connected and will not run IF the utility goes down. Does anyone know differently? On the same note, I am familiar with the Intelligen Energy Systems residential/light commercial cogeneration appliances. What else is "ou there"? Finally, I've been lurking here for a while. This is a GREAT list! For starters, it's like reading through a Who's Who of energy conservation/sustainable energy pioneers and advocates. My story, briefly, is 17 years managing a fossil-fuel heating contractor biz and then moving on to cogeneration (see above) and then on to alternative wastewater treatment (composting toilets and self-contained greywater garden beds). Now looking for gainful employment in sustainable energy or similar earth-friendly construction company. Anyone need me? Austin W. Sheatsley, Jr. Pepperell, Massachusetts 978-433-8239 asheatsley@empire.net ~Peace. Pass It On.~ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 21:44:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA03343 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:44:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29484; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:36:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:30:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA29175 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:30:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA29171 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:30:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.12] (blf12.acadia.net [205.217.217.12]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA01746 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:37:12 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 21:37:54 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: solar north windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2541 Do you like Vermeer? I think he was one of the greatest artists who ever lived. His color is luminous - as if his paints were ground pearls - and virtually all his paintings were done in north light. I have some small north windows on my house. I know that they cost me a couple dozen armloads of wood a year, but we love the Northern Lights, and goddammit, I want to know when they're out there. Green building is about people and life, as well as Btu's. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 22:36:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA04505 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:36:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01531; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:21:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01057 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:21:28 -0500 (EST) From: kahless@waymark.net Received: from [207.18.145.200] (dalmax2-200.waymark.net [207.18.145.200]) by ns.waymark.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27334 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:40:30 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199803122124.QAA11720@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 16:44:02 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: PT Wood: Oops Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2542 Someone asked about the safe alternative to pressure-treating that Jorg passed along. From my files: Valhalla Wood Preservatives Ltd. contact: Oke Wictorim Phone: 403/228-5193 Fax: 403/229-9365 INTERNET: http://www.worldexport.com (go to wood treatment or preservatives) >As previously mentioned they send a lot of > this material through the mail since it is a small bag of dry concentrate to > which water is added on site. We have used this product on our front porch > (decking) and rear deck wood structure (including members adjacent to our > vegetable garden) of our home and have used it on several projects including > wooden grade beams.I hope this may helpful for those interested in this >product. === ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 12 23:01:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA04716 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:01:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA02485; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:53:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:47:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA02142 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:47:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.142]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02138 for ; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:47:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin026.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.36]) by hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_12836)/8.8.6) with SMTP id TAA23083; Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:52:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3508AC22.3A89@uidaho.edu> Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 19:46:42 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: "David M. Foley" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: PT Wood: Oops References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2543 I'll save you a trip David - check out the quote from Jorg below. Kurt Rathmann Due to the number of private requests for information on "Lifetime" wood preservative, and in an effort to save myself some time, I am posting the requested information publically. We have no financial interest in this product. _____________________________________________________________________________ For information on the above, please contact Oke Wictorim from Valhalla Wood Preservatives Ltd. (403) 229-9365. As previously mentioned they send a lot of this material through the mail since it is a small bag of dry concentrate to which water is added on site. We have used this product on our front porch (decking) and rear deck wood structure (including members adjacent to our vegetable garden) of our home and have used it on several projects including wooden grade beams.I hope this may helpful for those interested in this product. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 03:23:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA08188 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 03:23:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA07831; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 03:14:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 03:10:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA07620 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 03:10:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA07616 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 03:10:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.100.227]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA16558 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:15:38 +0000 Message-ID: <350885FA.968FA3C5@which.net> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 01:03:55 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: "Radiance" Paint X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.1.32.19980312135825.006bdaec@together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2544 Did the literature say anything about occupants being able to use a lower internal temperature? I can imagine that since the occupants are somewhat warmer than the walls, the reflection could reduce personal heat loss so that you feel warmer and could therefore reduce the thermostat setting. Malcolm Scott Andrew M. Shapiro wrote: > Low-e wall paint -- "Radiance" brand paint ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 03:32:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA08254 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 03:32:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA08138; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 03:24:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 03:20:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA07899 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 03:19:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA07895 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 03:19:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (xyp106p6.ltec.net [206.158.213.16]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA03749 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 02:22:45 -0600 Message-ID: <350909A1.2DFE@navix.net> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 02:25:37 -0800 From: gerald martin Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net Organization: Eby-Martin Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-Navix (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Building, Energy, & North windows Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2545 My my, so many responses to my postings! George: Yes, references for the GOBAR digesters used in India would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for the info too! Jorg: Please, educate me on how north windows get passive solar heat gain when the sun shines from the south. (c: Joyce: Absolutely! You can use any of my information anytime. Gerry and I would like to join SBAN... and our project is as slow as the temperature is cold lately. Marcus: Thanks for the digester/heavy metals information! Phil: Don't know how widespread the formulas for % of glass really are. That would be interesting to know if it should be altered for colder climates. Anybody know more about this? Stephen: Good to know painting is all we need to do for the CCA wood! Bion: Thanks for all the great updates! And thanks to ALL those who commented on the methane digesters and north windows. North windows DO give wonderful and even lighting for studios and such. We're still building our passive solar house with about 1% north window area, but when we add on, I plan to have a studio for art and drafting with a nice BIG north window myself... even in this cold climate (had -21 degree wind chill yesterday and below zero temperatures). Sure would like to know where I could get some of those triple glazed windows that are like a 2x6 wall that Stephen Thwaites spoke of... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 07:18:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA09628 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:18:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA12578; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:09:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:05:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA12362 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:05:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.vineyard.net (mail@NS.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA12356 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:05:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mail.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA11292 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:11:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:11:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy5.vineyard.net(206.166.158.63) by mail.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma011247; Fri Mar 13 07:10:29 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Rot resistant woods Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2546 Several highly rot resistant woods not mentioned - which are right at the top of the list - are redwood and cypress. We use both extensively, all from salvage sources. One of the reasons there is a relative abundance of salvage cypress and redwood available is their durability. The cypress we use comes primarily from river bottoms in the south - when the old growth cypress forests were logged the trees were dropped into the rivers, collected in booms, and floated downstream to the mills. The material was so plentiful it wasn't worth going after the logs that got loose. These sunk and were perfectly preserved for the past 100 years. Almost all wood we use that is exposed to weather - aside from shingles (we use Maibec white cedars that originate in certified forests owned by Seven Islands Land Co. in Maine) - is either cypress or redwood. But we're very careful about how and where we use this valuable material, some of which is 500 - 1000 years old. So when we make mud sills in contact with concrete, or deck joists close to the ground, we use ACQ treated pressure treated southern yellow pine, which is fast growing plantation wood of lower quality. We try to minimize the use of this, but we also feel that the immediate dangers to workers and homeowners are minimal. The dangers we wish to avoid by minimizing use are to the workers who work with the chemicals in the treatment plants. Our understanding is that ACQ is somewhat less toxic than the copper arsenate treatment which is in widespread use, which we used until ACQ became available. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 07:48:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA09903 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:48:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA13548; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:39:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:35:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA13293 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:35:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA13289 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:35:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.118] (ub21.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.118]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id HAA15533 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:42:19 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:49:30 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: north windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2547 >>North windows are almost a total loss as they gain zero >>sunlight and they lose a great amount of heat. >___________________________________________________________________________ >The above is not necessarily true. With experience, you will find projects >where north windows will get net passive solar heat gain.I am sure that >there are many examples beyond the ones that I know. Our home is one, an >office building is another, both not by design, but rather by default. My experience is the same as Jorg's on north facing glass. The low-e, argon filled, windows are good enough that in 7000 HDD climates they are only modest losers for a wide range of window area. I did a simulation a sample 1400 sq. ft. house using Albany, NY data, and found that increasing north window area from 0 sq. ft. to 180 sq. ft. takes the annual heating load from 36 MMBTU's a year to 40 MMBTU's. The north wall would be essentially all glass at 180 sq. ft. of window. If, on the other hand, you were to use argon fill, low-e with an insulated edge spacer you'd be looking at a change in heating load of 1 or 2 MMBTU's a year. It's lost in the noise. There are two reasons it works like this - at the higher latitudes, in the spring and fall, you get direct solar gain through the north facing windows in the morning when it all goes into offsetting load; diffuse sky radiation gets in through the north glass all day long (the source of the northern light liked by artists). Overcast climates further equalize the difference between different orientations. If you're into modeling, in cloudy climates (like where I live in the rain shadow of the great lakes) an isotropic radiation processor for diffuce radiation works well, but in sunny climates (like Denver which gets twice as much sun as we do) you're better off modeling with an anisotropic processor. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 08:53:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA10588 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:53:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA16302; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:41:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:35:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15371 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:35:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15348; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:35:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA148214; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 06:39:30 -0700 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 06:39:30 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Strawbale Listserver Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver , Brian Wickhorst , Gordon Howell Subject: GBlist: 80% discount on 750-5 Watt used Solarex PV modules Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2548 Anyone interested in the above should contact me privately. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 08:53:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA10596 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:53:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA16544; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:43:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:38:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15927 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:38:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15913 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:38:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA22126 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:44:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 08:45:03 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: "Radiance" Paint To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199803122124.QAA11720@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2549 Andy, I agree completely with your cynical view of this product, and your analysis is both thorough and correct IMO. I'd give you an A+ for your review (I have given out a brochure on a radiant barrier as an assignment in class.) On Thu, 12 Mar 1998,From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" > Low-e wall paint -- "Radiance" brand paint > > I spoke with a friend who runs a building supply house and he was very high > on Radiance low-e paint, which is an interior paint meant to save energy. > I got curious and had literature sent, which is well designed and included > an "engineering guide" and testimonials. The claim is for an emissivity of > about 0.65 as compared to 0.9 for typical paint. On a wall with an --snip--- > half convective/conductive and half radiative, with normal surfaces, so the ASHRAE surface conductance values are 8.3 W/m^2 combined, of which 5 is radiative transfer. A drop in emmisivitie from the nomral 0.9 to 0.65 iindicates a savings of (0.9-0.65)*5=1.25. So with the paint, the surface film has a conductance of 7.05 or so. Thus the R-value was, switching to imperial units for my southern friends, R0.68, and the paint increased the R-value to R0.80. Bring out the parade! We have increased the R-value by R0.12! > reduction in total loss to the wall would then be more like 15%, if > radiation and other modes were additive. But as you cool the wall surface > with the low-e paint, the convective transfer goes up, so the savings would > be even less. Because the R-value of the paint is so little, this astute observation will never get a chance to play a role. > But the big question is why is the wall only 60 degrees? If the wall inside > reasons. And I wonder about the emissivity as dust builds up on the wall. > Anyone ever measured emissivity of a low-e surface after it gets dirty? The answer to the question is: how else can I sell this crap if I dont mis-use scientific calculations. No one out there will notice ... You are correct -- a wall at 60 F is a failure, low-e paint ain't gonna fix. > If the walls are even moderately insulated, the interior temperature would > be higher, perhaps as high as 69F for an interior of 72F and outside of > 30F, which would result in a radiative heat transfer about 20 times lower > from interior room surfaces to the inside of the exterior wall than to the > 60F wall surface. Under these conditions the emissivity of the walls > becomes unimportant and you waste your money on Radiance paint. Has anyone > else ever looked into this product? I have not looked into this one, but I have looked into several products that are based on controlling radiative heat loss. They all seem to be the snake-oil products of the 90's. Why? I think it is because no one understands heat tranfer, let alone radiative transfer. Just when people start figuring out that R-20 is good, people come along to screw up the meaning of R-value again. It all keeps me ungainfully employed. Cheers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 10:19:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11936 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:19:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19383; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:08:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:04:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19002 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:04:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18995 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:04:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA26446 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:09:39 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005A78B; Fri, 13 Mar 98 08:59:17 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:08:42 -0600 Message-ID: <0005A78B.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: "IBC" homes?? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2550 Has anyone had a chance to checkout the new building system patented by International Building Systems, of Anoka, MN? I read an article about them; they have a very interesting product. The entire structure is built from OSB, but in a fashion very different from SIP panels. The OSB parts are factory precut, reinforced with additional glued-on OSB splines, and fit together tongue-and-groove fashion. It's unlike anything I've heard of before. They claim their system is designed to produce ordinary-looking but very inexpensive houses. Has anyone examined/toured/lived in one of these homes, and can you comment on it? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 10:43:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12426 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:42:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20519; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:30:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:26:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20192 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:26:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20188 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:26:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA23793; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:31:59 -0800 Message-ID: <350950BB.C7AF633B@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 07:29:00 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John R. Abrams" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Rot resistant woods References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2551 I like John's careful considerations of wood properties and usage and it brought up the thought as to how much of our design work/detailing is still based on properties no longer available from the material. Rot resistance is a prime example as second growth material from rot resistant species has little of the characteristics of the close grained 1000 yr old example. Framing materials as well have less ability to deal with extended periods of moisture but we have also created assemblies that slow the transfer of moisture. The ability of walls to withstand periods of high moisture has to some extent been a factor of how quickly that moisture can escape. Conventionally we look at moisture contents of 20% as a condition for starting fungal growth and then lower rates 17% to continue but there is a time element here as portions of walls can quickly become saturated but generally release the moisture quite quickly. Woods with a large sapwood component (current framing and some siding materials and manufactured wood components) can retain moisture longer and would contribute to the problem of fungal growth within wall assemblies by limiting the ability of a wall to recover from occasional high exposure. Detailing is not a solution, a preventative prescription but there was always a reliance on some native properties. Anyway just some thoughts that tie this thread to the wood usage thread and the mold discussion. More questions on the current suitability of wood as framing material. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 11:39:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13391 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:39:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23583; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:28:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:24:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23195 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:24:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from AICS.NET (aics.net [209.21.198.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23191 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:24:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.21.198.44] ([209.21.198.44]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 6739300 ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:38:06 EST X-Sender: sustainable@aics.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:40:03 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #111 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2552 John: Do you or does anyone, have the address for "Sunslates"? David Del Porto Sustainable Strategies Ecological Engineering, Planning and Design 152 Commonwealth Avenue Concord, Massachusetts USA 01742-2968 Phone/Voice-mail: 978 369 9440 Fax/Telecopier: 978 369 2484 Web site: www.ecological-engineering.com E-mail: sustainable@aics.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 12:15:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13972 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:15:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25919; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:03:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:59:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25510 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:59:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25504 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 11:59:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.19] (blf19.acadia.net [205.217.217.19]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA12876 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:06:07 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:06:48 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: In floor heat rumour Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2553 A colleague called last night, all in a lather, because he heard from a friend in Belgium that radiant in-floor heat has been outlawed in France and Germany! This sounds like the "virus in the email" rumour, or the "Elvis is flying a UFO" rumour, but I promised my friend I'd check it out. Does anyone know anything about this? Thanks! David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 12:25:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14120 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:25:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26762; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:16:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:12:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26372 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:12:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26366 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:12:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5.carleton.ca [134.117.136.25]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v2.02) with ESMTP id MAA24745; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:18:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id MAA00456; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:18:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:18:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803131718.MAA00456@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Subject: GBlist: re: HRV Evaluations Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2554 on Thu 12 Mar 1998 Chuck Hinckley wrote: re: HRV evals > Has EBN or anyone else done any evaluations on various > ventilation units? Hello Chuck and VentH-Heads; A source for Murrican ratings is appended below, courtesy of Francois Dubrous at NRCan. (Neither of us could find the Canadian ratings document (which of course, would be the authoritative one) which I KNOW exists). ================== FOWARDED MESSAGE ======================== From: Zaloum, Charles Sent: Lundi 09 février 1998 9:47 Subject: RE: HRV's ratings HRV ratings are available in a document published by HVI (Home Ventilation Institute) called "Certified Home Ventilating Products Directory". HVI Division of Air Movement and Control Association Inc. 30 West University Drive Arlington Heights, Illinois 60004-1893 Ph. (847) 394-0150 Fx (847) 253-0088 ================================================================ -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 13:56:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16158 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:56:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01047; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:47:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:42:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00703 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:42:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00699 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:42:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.190] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:54:46 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: Sun Slates Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 10:48:06 -0800 x-sender: bruce@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: bruce To: "Sustainable Strategies" , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1322336005-1930079@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2555 David The REDI database shows Atlantis Energy at: Atlantis Energy, Inc. 233 South Auburn #110 Colfax, CA 95713 USA tel: 530-346-9595 fax: 530-346-9795 There are also several other sources of Photovoltaic Roofing listed. Bruce >John: Do you or does anyone, have the address for "Sunslates"? > >David Del Porto -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 15:09:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA18034 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:09:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05501; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:57:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:53:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA04810 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:52:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA04798; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 14:52:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA91874; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:56:35 -0700 Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:56:34 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Strawbale Listserver Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver , harrist@telusplanet.net Subject: GBlist: DETAILS on 750-5 watt PV modules at 80% discount Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2556 For all those who have indicated an interest, and in an effort to help answer some of your questions, let me give you a few more details and a contact e-mail address, since I do not have the time to get into sales: _________________________________________________________________________ Solarex MSX-5L (rated at 4.5 watts/.27 amps new) with stainless steel backing and clear tedlar cover (NO GLASS). 4 grommet-finished mounting holes in the corners, used between 0-3 years for battery recharging. Price about $30/module Canadian (FOB Calgary). Willing to deal in small quantities. First come, first serve. For exact pricing and details please contact Tim Harris at the above e-mail address, or cellular (403) 861-8147. I hope this will be useful to someone. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 15:47:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA18540 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:47:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA07657; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:39:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:34:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA07318 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:34:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07312 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:34:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.67]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 2007800 ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:42:11 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980313153200.006912e8@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:32:00 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: ROT RESISTANCE WOOD Cc: ashcreek@dreamscape.com In-Reply-To: <199803122124.QAA11720@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2557 Chuck, you wrote: >As an avid woodworker, I find it hard to imagine burying Cherry or Black >Walnut, of nearly any description, in the ground, but the top level you >mention are reasonable choices. I am curious if there is any documented >longevity tests out there for comparison purposes. My experience with >Black Locust is much like your hunting camp story, I used Black Locust >posts for a shed 28 years ago and they are still sound. Unfortunately >niether instance adds up to true certification. > >>Did they say why the post would "naturally" be more durable if cut in >summer? The sap issue makes some sense to me, the added sugar/starch >content of a summer cut post would presumably provide an attractive >growth medium or ready food supply for various pests and parasites. I >would think the same would apply for green as opposed to seasoned wood. > I haven't seen any documented studies, just lists in books indicating duribility. The top ones I mentioned are always rated highly. I wouldn't use cherry or walnut for posts either, but one could. The book actually states that "In the winter time the wood of trees contains large amounts of starches and sugars and other food materials stored in the wood. So a post would naturally be more durable if cut in summer than in winter. There is no meaning to the expression when the sap is down, for the sap never moves down the wood of the tree . . ." The book does state that since there is more moisture in a tree in winter than in summer, a winter posts dry out more slowly and may not check so deeply. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 16:14:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA18923 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:14:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09588; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:05:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:01:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA09158 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:00:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09153 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:00:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.56]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 2031300 ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:09:03 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980313155854.0068f0c4@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:58:54 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Is Air Conditioning Ever Green? In-Reply-To: <199803130700.CAA05975@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2558 Just completed an energy audit of a nature center in southeastern Pennsylvania. They want to air condition the office area of the building (2862 squaree feet). Primarily frame construction built around 1985-91 (R30 roof, R19 walls, double-pane casement windows, insulated slab). Located in the middle of the woods on top of a mountain. Natural gas is not available but could use propane if we can find a spot to hid the tank. We have stressed the need to first lower loads through energy efficient lighting (can't do much about people and equipment). We determined the size of the equipment based on these reduced loads. We selected the most efficient split system (R22)available at a reasonable cost (SEER 12). If they use the system judiciously their annual cooling costs should not exceed $1000. Can we make this any greener? We have stressed that their current system (open the windows, turn on the fans) is the most green. Is there any other piece of equipment available in this size range (5 ton) that would be more green in terms of refrigerant, energy use, noise, etc. Suppose that money was no object, is their a better system? Suppose that they were to air condition the whole building (10185 square feet) do other systems now make sense? We can't seem to find another alternative that even comes close to making economic sense. We have talked about PVs, absorption, dessicants, earth tubes, and cogeneration, please let me know what you think. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 16:52:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA19484 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:52:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11838; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:43:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:39:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11494 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:39:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.38]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11490 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:39:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id FYPNa09367; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:45:12 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO Message-ID: <14295548.3509a8ea@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:45:12 EST To: msheffer@cyberia.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Air Conditioning Ever Green? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2559 Carrier came out with a packaged unit (e.g. rooftop type) that has Refrigerant 134a, as a "Green" air conditioner, a couple of years ago. Last I heard, they had not sold many (maybe any), but it may still be on the market. I might have literature on it somewhere, if you can't find anything from your local Carrier distributor. I also think your idea to reduce loads is a great idea. Fan cooling will only go so far, in my experience. I have struggled a lot with the issue of "is AC ever green". My rough conclusion is that air conditioning is not always a luxury, and that it is okay to say that working in a hot space is not good for people, their happiness, productivity, etc. I have to admit to a possible bias - I once worked for an air conditioning manufacturer. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering PLEASE NOTE OUR NEW ADDRESS: 108 S. Albany St. Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX IMSHAPIRO@AOL.COM "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 18:02:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA20145 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 18:02:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16092; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 17:54:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 17:49:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15734 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 17:49:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15729 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 17:49:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (se13.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.46]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA03712 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 17:56:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3509B865.5CA4@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 17:51:17 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: SBWIN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2560 Debi wrote: "I save very frequently and I close down the computer every few hours. That empties out all of the garbage from the RAM. AutoCad had a command for this situation in the early days, . I think that the loose ends in the programming leave a lot of trash laying around. Some of the commands that start to degenerate come back to life after I turn off and get back in (hard reboot)." Do any of you run Regclean, an MS program that cleans out all of the crap in your registry? It's quick, clean and free, it might just do what Debi's cold reboot does. You would still want to save for safety sake. Does anyone know whether the new software likes or dislikes MMX, or does it care at all? Archicad runs slower on MMX processors, it might be worth asking Rob Heri or someone out there. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 19:05:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA20966 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:05:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA18529; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 18:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 18:52:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA18276 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 18:52:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA18272 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 18:52:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from platinum.ampsc.com (platinum.ampsc.com [207.102.161.178]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA01270; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:04:31 -0800 Message-ID: <3509C869.6A8@ampsc.com> Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:59:37 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John R. Abrams" CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Rot resistant woods References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2561 Hello everyone, I write this note only to caution all to consider not just the 'rot resistant' characteristic of woods, ie. 'redwood and cypress', who are quite close relatives, but also the structural and other characteristics of the woods considered, in your various applications. In any event, most all woods rot, when in close contact with moisture, and those that last longer do not maintain their structural and other integrities as well, as without moisture, or rot. Richard Moore CEO Eco-Systems Unlimited - Sustaining Safe and Healthy Occupancies Development Management, Building Systems Analysis, Indoor Air Environment Specialists, Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 19:15:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21047 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:15:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA18936; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:06:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:03:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA18676 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18670 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:02:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.30] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:15:24 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Air Conditioning Ever Green? Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:08:44 -0800 x-sender: bruce@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1322316769-3087551@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2562 Marcus If the air is relatively dry at that altitude, you might consider evaporative cooling. In addition to models that have been on the market for many years, there's a new one called Smart Cool, which is made by Cool Tech. We described this product in an issue of Energy Source Builder that was recently added to the arvhive: http://oikos.com/esb/52/smartcool.html Another option, that you may have considered already is night flushing with outside air. A simple method to evaluate these passive options is summarized in an article in an ESB article, which you can see at: http://oikos.com/esb/51/passivecooling.html I hope the nature center is open-minded about these alternatives. Bruce >Can we make this any greener? We have stressed that their current system >(open the windows, turn on the fans) is the most green. Is there any other >piece of equipment available in this size range (5 ton) that would be more >green in terms of refrigerant, energy use, noise, etc. Suppose that money >was no object, is their a better system? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 19:28:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21266 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:28:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19440; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:19:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:15:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA19178 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19174 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 19:15:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from van-52-1810.direct.ca (kadulski) [204.174.243.106] by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yDei1-0004wp-00; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:21:54 -0800 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: GBlist: R-Values of Bubble Wrap Insulation Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:22:06 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2563 You may want to check out the product evaluation at the CCMC (Canadian Construction Materials Centre) site : http://www.nrc.ca/ccmc/prodevalues_E.shtml (You may want to bookmark the site for future reference). ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seymour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 13 21:53:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA22400 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:53:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24279; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:44:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:40:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA24003 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:39:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA23999 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:39:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.22] (blf22.acadia.net [205.217.217.22]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA14558 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:46:13 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 21:46:55 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: "Radiance" Paint Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2564 Quote: >Did the literature say anything about occupants being able to use a >lower internal temperature? I can imagine that since the occupants are >somewhat warmer than the walls, the reflection could reduce personal >heat loss so that you feel warmer and could therefore reduce the >thermostat setting. >Malcolm Scott end of quote Dear Malcolm - I'm personally sceptical about the long-term efficacy of "Radiance" paint. But there is some evidence that people can be comfortable at lower air temperatures when the mean radiant temperature of their surroundings is raised. I used to work at the Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, and one of my projects was to write a "human comfort" model (in FORTRAN - this was the old days), based on work by Fanger et. al. in Denmark. When we did sensitivity-testing on the model, we were surprised by how much difference mean radiant temperature made to comfort results. BUT - this was a computer model, not empirical testing, and the sensation of "comfort" is highly subjective. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 14 03:01:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA26031 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 03:01:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA01264; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 02:53:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Mar 1998 02:47:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA01003 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 02:47:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA00999 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 02:47:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip203.efn.org [204.214.97.203]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA19520 for ; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 23:51:20 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: Subject: GBlist: Agriboard Rumor Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 22:19:17 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd4f11$1fff3820$LocalHost@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2565 Has anyone heard about Agriboard Industries coming under scrutiny for the suprisingly high R-Value claims being made of their straw core panel products? Robert Bolman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 14 09:13:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA28816 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 09:13:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06347; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 09:04:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Mar 1998 09:00:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA06051 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:59:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06045 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:59:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 08:59:45 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 441 invoked by uid 0); 14 Mar 1998 14:06:49 -0000 Received: from ppp-2.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.195?) (198.175.11.195) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 14 Mar 1998 14:06:49 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: In floor heat rumour Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2566 David Foley wrote: ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:06:48 -0400 From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: In floor heat rumour A colleague called last night, all in a lather, because he heard from a friend in Belgium that radiant in-floor heat has been outlawed in France and Germany! This sounds like the "virus in the email" rumour, or the "Elvis is flying a UFO" rumour, but I promised my friend I'd check it out. Does anyone know anything about this? Thanks! David Foley -------------- David, I have no direct knowledge of a ban, but I do try to follow EMF (electro-magnetic field) issues and it is possible that they have outlawed ELECTRICAL in-floor radiant heat, and not hydronic systems. Electrical radiant heating systems are more often put in ceilings, but I've heard of them in walls, and if you put it in the 1st floor ceiling, then it is in the 2nd floor's floor. In all cases, they tend to produce very high electro-magnetic fields, which have been associated with health problems including cancer by a large number of studies (despite what the electrical industry will try to tell you). So, it wouldn't surprise me if a relatively health-conscious country like Germany would ban them. Also, as far as energy efficiency, they heat with electricity, so they are obviously going to be very wasteful of energy resources compared to other space heating methods. Perhaps there is a kernal of truth in this rumor. C Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 14 13:44:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01239 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 13:44:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13428; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 13:35:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Mar 1998 13:30:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA13060 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 13:30:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13056 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 13:30:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA29902; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 10:35:57 -0800 Message-ID: <350ACD62.D3E73EFA@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 10:33:07 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Bio-based house Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2567 Thougt people might be interested in this or commenting on agricultural products versus wood products (something not covered in the wood/co2 discussion): BIO-BASED HOUSE AIMS FOR BOULDER MARKET The AARCitecture Environmental Home, designed almost completely of agriculturally derived materials, will be ready for the Boulder, Colorado real estate market by fall. Assistant professor Julee Herdt of the College of Architecture and Planning at the University of Colorado at Denver designed the 1,800-square-foot, passive solar, energy-efficient home with help from graduate students Steven Gates and Holt Fuller. Their goals: market competitiveness and low environmental impact. The designers collaborated with the Alternative Agricultural Research and Commercialization Corporation (AARC), the US Department of Agriculture, and Thistle Community Housing. The home's bio-based materials include structurally insulated wheat straw panels for the walls, floor, and roof. The designers incorporated soy panels with masonry units for the trombe wall. Corn, cork, jute, bamboo, and other cellulose-based materials make up the house's interior flooring, shelving, cabinetry, and built-in furniture details. For more information, call Julee Herdt, 303.556.4097. - Environmental Design & Construction, Mar-Apr 98, p 13. from GreenClips, a summary of news on sustainable building design and related government and business issues published every two weeks by Chris Hammer. If you want to subscribe to greenclips: Address an email message to . In the body of the message (not the subject line) type: subscribe greenclips ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 14 17:07:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA04729 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 17:07:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18712; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 16:59:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Mar 1998 16:54:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA18437 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 16:54:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA18431 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 16:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.99.30]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA6071 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 21:59:38 +0000 Message-ID: <350ADE20.4F80AD5C@which.net> Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 19:44:34 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuild Subject: Re: GBlist: Energy Storage? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <35089434.44B181C3@empire.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2568 I have info on a cogeneration system called Totem from Fiat, based on a Fiat car engine, which can run with or without a grid connection. My info. is a few years old, but I came across the name on a web site recently so it may still be valid. Malcolm Scott Aus wrote: > It is my understanding that cogeneration systems of this type are NOT > stand-alone, i.e. they are grid-connected and will not run IF the > utility goes down. Does anyone know differently? On the same note, I > am > familiar with the Intelligen Energy Systems residential/light > commercial > cogeneration appliances. What else is "ou there"? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 14 21:02:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA07322 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 21:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA24574; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:53:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:49:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA24235 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:48:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA24231 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:48:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05632 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:55:32 -0500 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-72-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.72]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA17887 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:55:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980314205359.006dcdf4@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 20:53:59 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Re: fuel cell efficiency In-Reply-To: <199803122124.QAA11720@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2569 A Lee wrote: ______________________________________________________________________ " Yes they (fuel cells) produce CO2. Other pollutants are pretty much negligible. Efficiency, and therefore CO2/energy output, varies by technology and whether the waste heat is used. Efficiencies are in the range of 45% to 85% if waste heat is recovered and used. Generally, even the least efficient fuel cells are more efficient than conventional combustion devices." I don't specificy any gas equipment with efficiency lower than 85%, and sometimes convince folks to use higher efficiencies. How much of the fuel goes to electricity and how much to heat? Am I right in assuming that since the carbon in methane isn't going to a useful end product with a fuel cell, that a fuel cell produces the same amount of CO2 per unit of fuel as any other gas burner? Can you recommend a good reference -- articles or otherwise -- on fuel cells? Thanks. Andy Shapiro, Energy Balance, Inc., Montpelier VT USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 14 22:23:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07966 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA27194; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:15:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:10:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA26761 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:10:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA26757 for ; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:10:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip11.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.11]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA29691; Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:16:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980315032458.006f73e8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 22:24:58 -0500 To: "John R. Abrams" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: "Sun Slates" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2570 At 03:39 PM 3/11/1998 -0500, John R. Abrams wrote: >The current Energy Design Update has a piece about "SunSlates" manufactured >by Atlantis Energy Systems in Colfax California. These are solar electric >roof shingles made by laminmating PV modules to Eternit ...... Eternit has been producing 'slates' in Europe for a while & I have heard of no frost problems - although the Hardy 'slates' as they moved up from Florida did have some freeze-thaw problems. Actually slate itself, depending upon the type also has similar problems. We are about to do 3.1 kW with Sunslates (eastern end of Long Island) - my municipal electric utility (part of NYPA) is not beholden to the NYSPSC & we'll see what happens with the utility inter-tie. There also some interesting solar thermal by-products from using the slate/sheating cavity as a pre-heat system for DHW or space heat. We are interested in working with any others on building integrated PV systems in this region. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 15 11:20:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13942 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 11:20:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11203; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 11:11:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Mar 1998 11:06:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10903 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 11:06:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10899 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 11:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from MXThompson@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4XXNa09340 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 11:12:31 -0500 (EST) From: MXThompson Message-ID: <53c92338.350bfdf1@aol.com> Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 11:12:31 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Utilitree Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2571 No, it’s not a joke -- nor the name game revisited. Given the earlier discussion of whether “to cut or not to cut”, I thought this might be of some interest. >From an article I came across in the NY Times, Utilitree apparently is a consortium of utilities who have invested $176,000 in a reforestation project in Louisiana to sequester CO2 as a means to make good on their “promise” to DOE to reduce emissions by the year 2000. Their claim is that this 80 acre project will remove tens of thousands of tons of carbon over the next several decades. They have enlisted the School of Forestry at LA Tech to manage the project. Now, this may be my cynical side, but it seems a bit reminiscent of the way in which the chemical and farm implement companies used ag schools in the 60’s and 70’s to spread their “good word” and lead farmers down the road to suicide. Mostly, though, that those who “managed” fossil fuels and nuclear power so as to play a large part in creating the current situation are now planning to manipulate and manage yet another resource to try to ameliorate so they can keep selling electricity in the most profitable manner ... and I expect do some fancy footwork re. rate increases, profits, tax write-offs, etc. Was wondering if anyone had heard of such projects and if they knew of/could think of an up side? (I would have attached the article except that I don’t have a scanner and am a really slow typist. If anyone would like to see it, let me know. I could copy it and send it via pony express.) Margo Thompson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 15 12:35:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14387 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13703; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:26:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:22:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13425 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from november.diac.com (root@diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13421 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:22:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.64.42.80] (p80.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.80]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA00690 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:27:22 GMT Message-Id: <199803151727.RAA00690@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: north windows Date: Sun, 15 Mar 98 10:29:09 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2572 The North Window Thread: >>>North windows are almost a total loss as they gain zero >>>sunlight and they lose a great amount of heat. >>___________________________________________________________________________ >>The above is not necessarily true. With experience, you will find projects >>where north windows will get net passive solar heat gain.I am sure that >>there are many examples beyond the ones that I know. Our home is one, an >>office building is another, both not by design, but rather by default. >My experience is the same as Jorg's on north facing glass. The low-e, >argon filled, windows are good enough that in 7000 HDD climates they are >only modest losers for a wide range of window area. I did a simulation a >sample 1400 sq. ft. house using Albany, NY data, and found that increasing >north window area from 0 sq. ft. to 180 sq. ft. takes the annual heating >load from 36 MMBTU's a year to 40 MMBTU's. The north wall would be >essentially all glass at 180 sq. ft. of window. If, on the other hand, you >were to use argon fill, low-e with an insulated edge spacer you'd be >looking at a change in heating load of 1 or 2 MMBTU's a year. It's lost in >the noise. There are two reasons it works like this - at the higher >latitudes, in the spring and fall, you get direct solar gain through the >north facing windows in the morning when it all goes into offsetting load; >diffuse sky radiation gets in through the north glass all day long (the >source of the northern light liked by artists). Overcast climates further >equalize the difference between different orientations. If you're into >modeling, in cloudy climates (like where I live in the rain shadow of the >great lakes) an isotropic radiation processor for diffuse radiation works >well, but in sunny climates (like Denver which gets twice as much sun as we >do) you're better off modeling with an anisotropic processor. I've read Terry's well documented and well reasoned post, but I still don't understand it. Since VIEW is a big design issue here in the expansive west, there is occasionally pressure to include a lot of north facing glazing in a house, which I have always resisted doing. Jorg and Terrys apparent opinion that this is acceptable is of great interest, and so I would like help clarifying this issue The crux of the matter is this question: If my wall is R-28, and my window is R-6, why would this difference be "lost in the noise"? This seems like a significant difference; otherwise, why wouldn't we save a lot of money and materials and just make houses with R-6 walls? I also don't understand the "...direct solar gain through north facing windows..." theory. While its certainly the case that the solar angle is briefly north of east and west in all non-tropical latitudes during the 6 months between the spring and fall equinoxes, I believe in most locations this has NO useful affect on solar gain. Seven reasons immediately come to mind: 1. This effect takes place mainly when the sun is low in the horizon, (early and late in the day). At this time, solar radiation is often obscured by buildings, elevated topography, or vegetation, either on the horizon line or nearby. 2. The amount of atmosphere, moisture, and pollution at the low solar angles greatly reduces solar gain. 3. Likewise, the times during which NE or NW light might penetrate a direct N facing window, the angle of solar insolation to the glazing is so acute, I believe most of it will be reflected out, particularly with double glazing. 4. The window and frame assemblies themselves will provide a surprising amount of shading at these acute angles; a window with divided lights can shade itself. 5. Is is possible Terry's calculations were done on an annual model rather than just for the real heating season? This probably isn't true if you live where Jorg does, but where I live, by the time of year the sun rises and sets far enough to the north to provide a reasonable angle for meaningful solar gain through a north facing window, we no longer need or want solar gain. 6. Terry's model appears to have been done for a non-solar orientated house (based on the description of a 1400 SF house with a 180 SF north wall being "essentially all glass", this house is square if not aligned on a N-S axis). Well designed buildings require far less auxiliary heating, and thus require far less (if any) heating on the long-day side of the equinoxes. Presuming we all are building or designing well insulated and solar oriented (if not full on passive solar) houses, then the well-established theory that north facing windows provide no useful solar gain is even more true. 7. Occupant comfort is the last issue; I would have to believe that during a cold evening, a well insulated wall will feel better to be near, due to less radiant heat loss, than all but the best window. When doing PV installations, the ballpark figure in sizing the array is to figure they generate electricity an average of 5 hours a day (presuming full sun). This is because of reasons #1 - #3 above. Thus, the fancy digital readouts on a PV system are a quick and easy way of learning about some aspects of solar incidence; our recently installed system confirms that unless the sun is striking the panels fairly directly and well above the horizon, solar gain is minimal. In summary, there appears to be good reasons why the Passive Solar Industries Council, after a 3 year study in conjunction what was then called the Solar Energy Research Institute (now NREL) and Los Alamos National Laboratory, stated unequivocally: "North windows in almost any climate lose significant heat energy and gain very little useful sunlight in the winter". Indeed, their findings are so conclusive, they state that E and W windows (let alone N) might also be net heat losers (if one factors in the difficulty of shading them from heat gain during the summer). This study is dated, window performance has improved since then, and this formula loses credence the farther one is located from the equator, but I still don't understand how N windows would provide useful solar gain for most locations in the continental US. Please note, I am not being argumentative; glazing orientation is a huge design point for me, and I want to make sure I'm not missing something. Lastly, the statement "diffuse sky radiation gets in through the north glass all day long" is something else I don't know about. How much solar gain comes from diffuse radiation? Buzz Burrell Bolder Building Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 15 12:49:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14473 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:49:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14292; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:41:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:37:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14028 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:36:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14019 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 12:36:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ppp-206-170-29-174.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.174]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id JAA18730; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 09:43:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <350C13A9.4045@pacbell.net> Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 09:45:13 -0800 From: George Kamburoff Reply-To: gkam@pacbell.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-PBWG (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: MXThompson CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Utilitree References: <53c92338.350bfdf1@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2573 Wow! A consortium of utilites sepnt $176,000?? What largess! What great protectors of humanity!!! That amount of money wouldn't even buy a switch in a substation, and it took a consortium to come up with such an amount? You can bet the daily telephone bills of those in the consortium exceed that figure. Sorry for the disdain, but I have found in my 53 years that conservative businessmen will buy/sell/do anything, anyone, and any society for money. gkamburoff ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 15 16:02:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA16456 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:02:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21915; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 15:53:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Mar 1998 15:48:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21578 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 15:48:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21571 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 15:48:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.198.23.87] (uA1-c22.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.87]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA16476 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 15:54:58 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199803151727.RAA00690@november.diac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:02:11 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: north windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2574 Buzz, I love your points and questions. Sounds like you'd like to be able, in good conscience to take advantage of north views. Let's see what we can do. Reflecting on it, this is a fairly complex bunch of issues, some of the details and the sources of uncertainty in what I posted are historical artifacts. I'll take a crack at what comes up for me now and let the rest ferment. Might take a few posts to get clarity (or sorry for the long post but i didn't have time to write a short one). Direct radiation and diffuse radiation. Solar radiation received by a surface arrives in two componets. One component is direct radiation, that arrives from the direction of the sun and has not been scattered by the atmosphere. The other is diffuse radiation, which has been scattered by the atmosphere, and so may arrive from any direction. Direct radiation gives hard edged shadows and diffuse radiation illuminates more evenly. On overcast days, all the incident solar radiation on any orientation are diffuse radiation. My guess is that you know from your own experience that a solar tempered house can meet a great deal of it's load during the day on cold, cloudy days, when it's experiencing no direct radiation gains and orientation is irrelevant. The radiation processor I used in the simulations was from Duffy and Beckman. They use an isotropic diffuse component model, meaning that they assume the diffuse radiation arrives uniformly from the skydome. This assumption works well for overcast climates. For clear climates, an anisotropic model (like the Hay sky-diffuse model), which weights the diffuse componant towards the sun position works better. It is largely the diffuse gains which make heating season performance of R-4 or better windows into reasonable performers on north orientations. The points you make about self shadowing and low angle of incidence do not have much impact on the diffuse component, particularly in overcast climates. However, they are crucial for direct radiation. I am quite interested in them in that regard. And here is where I need to ferment. I wrote the code for the simulation somewhere around 1980 or so. My recollection is that I did solar calculations for the average day in each month. I split gains and losses into three time periods - night time, daytime and morning/evening. That means I made some assumptions about average incidence angle for these different times of the day. On north windows particularly, the error associated with the assumptions may have a siginificant effect on the results. The hourly calculations I did to test the simplifying assumptions may not have systematically tested varying north glass and I almost certainly tested for the northeast climate more than sunnier, warmer climates. We did all these simplifying things back then (like in the Princeton programs, FLOAD, SUNHOUSE, HOTCAN or LBL's CIRA) because hourly finite element programs were too slow to be useful for sensitivity studies unless you had access to a powerful mainframe. What I did in the simulations was to vary window size incrementally on each orientation so that I could see the effects of varing window size on the heating load. To compare three different windows on four orientations for 5 apertures requires 60 runs. Back then, when I did a single 10 node hourly simulation, I'd get it set up, let it run overnight and pick up the results in the morning. Sixty runs, sixty days, one building, one location, three window types. By using the simplified models, I could have it ratchet, not only through the window options, but also options for every building element, infiltration and mechanicals (like CIRA) in about and hour, and end up with a cost optimized path from the standard practice of the day to something that was 2 to 3 BTU's per square foot per degree day, about one fifth of what was standard back then. Marc Rosenbaum (among others) is designing buildings that are significantly better than that these days. I'm not familiar with the PSIC-SERI study you mentioned. I'd like to revisit north window performance using more sophisticated tools than I did back then. My old programs ran under microsoft qbasic, which doesn't run on anything anymore, so I'd have to use a new program anyway. Which one though? I don't like to use simulation programs I don't know line by line. Maybe TRACE, it's my favorite of the big programs. I don't know some of the newer programs intimately like I do the old ones, but I've been thinking about getting Energy-10 since they fixed up the infiltration portion of the model and the ASHRAE foundation stuff is pretty good for ordinary things. Maybe I'll give that a try. Maybe Rick Mathis has already done this stuff and I won't have to? Are you using building loads software? With regard to the 180 square foot north wall, and solar design, the house was a salt box, so the south face was twice the size of the north face. I picked 180 square feet as the largest size anyone would reasonably put on the north wall (10 - 3x6 windows would be essentially a wall of glass over 35 feet long). I think the house was 28 by 45 (long axis E-W) and actually had 1800 square feet of floor space (plus an insulated basement which I allowed to have a floating temperature). Walls around R-30, ceiling R38, basement walls R13 below grade and R-17 above grade. Probably a medium amount of thermal mass. I've found thermal comfort to be very important. I've seen many problems caused by people trying to get comfortable. If it's 70 deg. F inside and 0 deg. F out, with a 15 mph wind, the inside surface temperature of an R 4 window is around 58 deg F, 63 for an R 7 window and 68 for and R 28 wall about 68 deg. Ten degrees is a big difference for radiation transfer and the airfall sinking down the wall could cause discomfort. I'm with you Buzz. No one would want 180 square feet of R-4 north glass under those conditions. You could have a modest amount though. Enough to get the view maybe. Thanks Buzz, I'll be cogitating. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 15 16:35:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA16677 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:35:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA23102; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:26:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:22:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22792 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:22:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22786 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA01298 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:27:30 -0500 Message-id: <2592893@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 15 Mar 98 16:35:11 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: north windows To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2575 Hi Terry - You may want to check out the software sold by Tait Solar - 602-829-8422. They have a family of programs which calculate clear and average solar gain on any orientation and tilt. It might be better to just isolate the window - gain and loss, over the heating season, rather than use something like E-10 which is whole building. I know from the little work I have done, that when a program prints out the diffuse, reflected, and direct radiation the diffuse always is lowest. But I've been looking at south facing windows almost exclusively. The real issue as I see it is, is north facing glass a net gain in Dec - Feb, the real winter months in a well-designed house. Here's a very quick and sloppy analysis: For Boston, the heating degree days for Dec - Feb are 3071. The heat lost through one ft2 of glass that is R-6 is (3071 x 24)/6 = 12,284 Btu/ft2. From ASHRAE 97 Fundamentals, Table 18, SHGF for 40 NL, the average clear day solar radiation passing through a single glazed (ASHRAE - what can you do?) north facing window is 104, 122, 168 Btu/ft2 Dec- Feb respectively. Divide by 0.88 to get solar radiation incident on the window, and assume that clear day and non-clear day are similar for the north elevation, since no direct insolation is present. Multiply by 60% SHGC for the R-6 glass. Total gain for the three month period is 7,984 Btu/ft2. Net for the period is a 4300 Btu/ft2 loss. An hourly simulation software would do better on several counts, but I doubt it would change the overall conclusion. By comparison, the R-28 wall has no gain and loses 2,632 Btu/ft2 during the same period. So the impact of the glass is not severe (try doing the same calcs with R-2 glass!) - 100 ft2 of glass loses 167,000 Btu more than the R-28 wall over the period, not very much energy! But I think it's a stretch to say the glass is Better. Also, the glass vs. the wall increase the peak heat loss, which also drops the building's time constant, or rate of cooling down. I live in a wood-heated house, and wood heat is different than automatic central heat, in that one makes a binary decision: to light or not to light the fire? My own experience has been instructive. I modified my house two years ago and brought some of what was a greenhouse into the living area of the house. I bumped the R-2 glass up by adding another layer of glass (LOF Energy Advantage, a high solar gain hardcoat low-e). So I added about 100 ft2 of glass to the house. The result is that the house annual heating load doesn't change much, but the temperature swings are much larger and on nights where we never lit a fire we often do, because the house cools off faster. Just an example where the software doesn't tell the human factors stuff. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 15 17:21:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA17106 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:21:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA24924; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:12:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:08:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24560 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:07:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24556 for ; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:07:41 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id REY18569; Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:11:47 EST To: MXThompson@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 16:23:35 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Utilitree Message-ID: <19980315.162408.3662.3.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <53c92338.350bfdf1@aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-61 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2576 Where can I find these guys? I will donate them an old growth pine tree that is threatening my vacation home in North Louisiana. All they have to do is come dig it up or cut it down. On Sun, 15 Mar 1998 11:12:31 EST MXThompson writes: >No, it’s not a joke -- nor the name game revisited. Given the earlier >discussion of >whether “to cut or not to cut”, I thought this might be of some >interest. >>From an >article I came across in the NY Times, Utilitree apparently is a >consortium of >utilities who have invested $176,000 in a reforestation project in >Louisiana >to >sequester CO2 as a means to make good on their “promise” to DOE to >reduce >emissions by the year 2000. Their claim is that this 80 acre project >will >remove >tens of thousands of tons of carbon over the next several decades. >They have >enlisted the School of Forestry at LA Tech to manage the project. > >Now, this may be my cynical side, but it seems a bit reminiscent of >the way in >which the chemical and farm implement companies used ag schools in the >60’s >and 70’s to spread their “good word” and lead farmers down the road to >suicide. >Mostly, though, that those who “managed” fossil fuels and nuclear >power so as >to >play a large part in creating the current situation are now planning >to >manipulate >and manage yet another resource to try to ameliorate so they can keep >selling >electricity in the most profitable manner ... and I expect do some >fancy >footwork >re. rate increases, profits, tax write-offs, etc. Was wondering if >anyone had >heard >of such projects and if they knew of/could think of an up side? >(I would have attached the article except that I don’t have a scanner >and am a >really slow typist. If anyone would like to see it, let me know. I >could copy >it and >send it via pony express.) > >Margo Thompson >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 11:06:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA00252 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:06:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27101; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:57:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:52:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26541 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26529 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:52:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from alee (pdx56-i48-13.teleport.com [204.202.167.27]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA14771; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:58:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <350D4B9D.395B@teleport.com> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:56:13 -0800 From: A Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andrew M. Shapiro" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: fuel cell efficiency References: <3.0.1.32.19980314205359.006dcdf4@together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2577 Andrew M. Shapiro wrote: > > A Lee wrote: > ______________________________________________________________________ > " Yes they (fuel cells) produce CO2. Other pollutants are pretty much > negligible. Efficiency, and therefore CO2/energy output, varies by > technology and whether the waste heat is used. Efficiencies are in the > range of 45% to 85% if waste heat is recovered and used. Generally, even > the least efficient fuel cells are more efficient than conventional > combustion devices." > > I don't specificy any gas equipment with efficiency lower than 85%, and > sometimes convince folks to use higher efficiencies. How much of the fuel > goes to electricity and how much to heat? Am I right in assuming that > since the carbon in methane isn't going to a useful end product with a fuel > cell, that a fuel cell produces the same amount of CO2 per unit of fuel as > any other gas burner? > > Can you recommend a good reference -- articles or otherwise -- on fuel > cells? > > Thanks. Andy Shapiro, Energy Balance, Inc., Montpelier VT USA > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ The efficiencies I mentioned are for electricity generation (low end) and electricity+waste heat (high end). You won't find any electric generation using combustion that has a generation efficiency of 85%. For sources of information check the Internet. There are a number of good sources of info on fuel cells through the library. There are also two international conferences that produce excellent proceedings alternating every other year that produce more technical information. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 12:11:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01493 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:11:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01287; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:00:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:55:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00629 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:54:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from november.diac.com (root@diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00621 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:54:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.64.42.92] (p92.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.92]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA01906 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 17:00:04 GMT Message-Id: <199803161700.RAA01906@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: north windows Date: Mon, 16 Mar 98 10:01:55 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2578 Terry and Marc: Thanks for the informative replies! In my mind, two questions still seem to be pivotal in addressing the overall question of north facing windows (our apologies to the folks Down Under for our geo-centrism). The first is: how meaningfull is diffuse radiation, and the second question is: if a R-4 or R-6 wallform is not detrimental, then why are we insulating to R-20 to 30? >Direct radiation and diffuse radiation. Solar radiation received by a >surface arrives in two components. One component is direct radiation, that >arrives from the direction of the sun and has not been scattered by the >atmosphere. The other is diffuse radiation, which has been scattered by >the atmosphere, and so may arrive from any direction. Direct radiation >gives hard edged shadows and diffuse radiation illuminates more evenly. On >overcast days, all the incident solar radiation on any orientation are >diffuse radiation. My guess is that you know from your own experience that >a solar tempered house can meet a great deal of it's load during the day on >cold, cloudy days, when it's experiencing no direct radiation gains and >orientation is irrelevant. It seems important to note that "diffuse radiation" and radiation on overcast days is not the same. Shorter waves will slice right through cloud cover, thus reducing but not eliminating direct solar gain on properly orientated glazing. (I'll never forget this point, as I once sustained a first-second degree sunburn over my entire body while skiing off the summit of Mauna Kea on a densely overcast day while wearing nothing but a bathing suit). OTOH, you could be standing behind a rock on the summit of Mt Everest and hardly get a tan; diffuse radiation won't do that. The above actually refers mostly to UV, which also isn't the same wavelength as what warms a solar heated house, so I would like to restate my question: How much solar gain comes from diffuse radiation? (Not direct radiation diffused through a cloud cover). I've always assumed the answer was "none", but I don't know. (Keep in mind, if there's a vertical snowbank outside the north window, that's reflective radiation, not diffuse). Establishing if true diffuse radiation will add actual solar gain through a modern window remains a question that has to be answered if we are to intelligently answer the overall north window question. The issue becomes fairly complex when one factors in the new glazings, which filter out different solar wavelengths depending on what one has bought. Frankly, relying entirely on computer modeling to make these design decisions does not strike me as logical, at this state of the software art. From what I've just read, the amount of information left out of the simulation or assumed by the program is just too much. We all just agreed that human comfort is a big additional factor, and here's one more entire process that these simulations seem to have ignored: the passive solar with thermal mass equations. Where I live (I'm attempting not to gloat openly), Btu heat loss calcs are sometimes considered virtual nonsense, because they ignore what the locals have been doing for 900 years: taking advantage of the large diurnal range of temperature and high altitude solar radiation with on-site produced massive walls and dramatic southern glazing (or openings). Oops, I almost switched subjects to another favorite rant ... so back to north windows ... another way of approaching this would be to again ask this question: If large north windows have little or no effect on the overall performance of a temperate climate house, then why the heck are we designing our houses like this? Are we not listening to the computer analysis? According to these simulations, we are doing it wrong; we should build a post and beam structure, and simply glaze the entire thing. In fact, that's exactly how office buildings and skyscrapers have been done for decades. No more SIP discussion, no more backpriming, no more EIFS lawsuits, no more "you must read Joe Lstiburek" posts, no more cellulose vs fiberglass arguments, no more framing lite philosophy, no more fussing with annoying soffit and facia detail, no more save-the-world-with-strawbales; just glaze all the walls with high-tech glass, put a roof on, run the numbers and install the appropriate HVAC system. (Suddenly, I'm not sure if I'm being sarcastic or not ;-) ... The economy and ease of scale and volume would open up whole new worlds. Practical shutter systems would be invented, enabling the occupants to tune each room on a day-day basis for privacy and light. Just the time saved worrying about moisture in wood framed walls could go to inventing a sealed glazing structure that clouds over when the interior temperature exceeds 72 degrees ... Oh well, in the meantime, let me know if north windows provide solar gain or not. THANKS! Buzz Burrell Boulder Building Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 12:34:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01816 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:34:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02669; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:20:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02274 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:19:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02260 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:19:44 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MmU06129; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:22:24 EST To: sullivan@oak.oikos.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 10:32:58 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Air Conditioning Ever Green? Message-ID: <19980316.113442.3670.5.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <1322316769-3087551@irisinc.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,5-6,8-9,12-13,15-23,25-76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2579 You might consider the IDAC product line which is a air conditioning product line designed for use with solar power systems. They are also evaporative coolers which means they are designed for use in regions of low humidity (less than 30%). In fact, they will not function in regions of high humidity greater than 50%. There is a two ton version available (71-190) which sells for $3990.00 (US). There is also a smaller 12Volt DC version available which works well for single rooms of 16x20 feet (71-182). This unit will run on a car battery and sells for $575.00 I believe they also offer 12VDC ceiling fans that work on 12 or 24 Volts. 71-316 $190.00 (US) Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Fri, 13 Mar 1998 16:08:44 -0800 Bruce Sullivan writes: >Marcus > >If the air is relatively dry at that altitude, you might consider >evaporative cooling. In addition to models that have been on the >market >for many years, there's a new one called Smart Cool, which is made by >Cool Tech. We described this product in an issue of Energy Source >Builder >that was recently added to the arvhive: > > http://oikos.com/esb/52/smartcool.html > >Another option, that you may have considered already is night flushing > >with outside air. > >A simple method to evaluate these passive options is summarized in an >article in an ESB article, which you can see at: > > http://oikos.com/esb/51/passivecooling.html > >I hope the nature center is open-minded about these alternatives. > >Bruce > > >>Can we make this any greener? We have stressed that their current >system >>(open the windows, turn on the fans) is the most green. Is there any >other >>piece of equipment available in this size range (5 ton) that would be >more >>green in terms of refrigerant, energy use, noise, etc. Suppose that >money >>was no object, is their a better system? > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 >Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 >Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com >----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 12:39:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01914 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:39:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03185; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:30:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:26:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02781 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:26:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02775 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:26:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA02291 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:30:56 -0500 Message-id: <2601696@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 16 Mar 98 12:38:55 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: north windows To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2580 --- You wrote: could go to inventing a sealed glazing structure that clouds over when the interior temperature exceeds 72 degrees ... --- end of quote --- This exists - Cloudgel - though I don;t know if it is commercially available. Solar gain does happen through diffuse radiation - just not nearly so much as direct. The reason we don't insulate to R-6 instead of R-20 or 30 is that when you have the window, it gains as well as loses - the R-6 wall just loses. The all R-6 wall house, say with 1500 ft2 of wall area, has a design load just from the wall of 17,000 to 22,000 Btu/hr - about what a typical total load is for a superinsulated house - not a great idea. The all glass house, with high R-value, glazing that has tunable transmission of heat and light, has been dreamed of for many years, and is closer to becoming a reality. I don;t think it's there today, but it will be in our careers, Buzz. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 13:10:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA02692 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:10:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05437; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:58:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:53:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05004 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:53:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04997 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:53:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id LAA0000028302; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:59:58 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980316180201.006a488c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:02:01 -0600 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: SBWIN Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2581 Debi wrote: "I save very frequently and I close down the computer every few hours. That empties out all of the garbage from the RAM. AutoCad had a command for this situation in the early days, . I think that the loose ends in the programming leave a lot of trash laying around. Some of the commands that start to degenerate come back to life after I turn off and get back in (hard reboot)." Maybe this is a matter of damned if you do and damned it you don't, but it is my understanding that it's much better for your computer to leave it on all the time, that turning it off at the end of the day or more often is the quickest way to wear it out. Ref. both the manufacturer and my computer guru. But then I don't use AutoCad so degenerating commands aren't a problem. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 13:16:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA02895 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:16:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06187; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:06:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:02:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05669 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:02:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05664 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:02:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA07423 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:07:58 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005A86A; Mon, 16 Mar 98 11:57:07 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:06:41 -0600 Message-ID: <0005A86A.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Anyone using "SolarWall"? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2582 I received info from a company called Conserval. They make a very interesting product called SolarWall, which is a ribbed metal panel, perforated with many tiny holes. The panel is installed on the south side of a house, and is apparently an extremely efficient collector of solar energy.....they claim that SolarWall can raise the temperature of ventilation makeup air by 50 degrees F. over ambient, on a sunny winter day. It looks like a fairly easy do-it-yourself project, and their prices look very attractive. It looks like it might be an environmentally-friendly replacement for heat-recovery ventilators. Has anyone had experience with this product, and can you comment on its performance? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 13:16:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA02926 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:16:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06279; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:08:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:03:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05787 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:03:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05774 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:03:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA07433 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:08:58 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005A86B; Mon, 16 Mar 98 11:58:07 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:07:57 -0600 Message-ID: <0005A86B.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: "SolarWall" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2583 In my previous email, I forgot to mention, they have an Internet site: http://www.solarwall.com/system.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 14:26:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04178 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10109; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:14:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:10:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09703 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:09:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.state.vt.us (mail.state.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09699 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:09:47 -0500 (EST) From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Received: from vdhvax ([159.105.135.2]) by mail.state.vt.us (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-44988U13000L13000S0) with SMTP id AAA202 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:24:13 -0500 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 13:55:39 -0500 Message-Id: <98031613553920@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Building Air Quality guide X-VMS-To: SMTP%"greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2584 FYI- For those for indoor air quality info, the very useful "Building Air Quality: A Guide for Building Owners and Facility Managers" is (finally) available (free) online. Check out the EPA website: http://www.epa.gov/iaq/pubs ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 14:29:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04230 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:29:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10773; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:16:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10293 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:16:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10278 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:16:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sd28.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.253]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA11048; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:22:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <350D7AE3.1DA5@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:17:55 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: SBWIN References: <1.5.4.32.19980316180201.006a488c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2585 Sacie and Greenies, I am sorry for the mispost, SBWIN, it was meant to go to Solidbuilder users list not this one, hasty mouse work no doubt to blame. Sorry. Chuck David F. Lambertson wrote: > > Debi wrote: "I save very frequently and I close down > the computer every few hours. That empties out all of the garbage from > the RAM. AutoCad had a command for this situation in the early days, . > I think that the loose ends in the programming leave a lot of trash laying > around. Some of the commands that start to degenerate come back to life > after I turn off and get back in (hard reboot)." > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 14:56:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04687 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:55:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13108; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:46:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:42:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12572 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:42:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12562 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:42:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA105442; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:46:57 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 12:46:57 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Dynamic wall systems (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2586 On behalf of those people interested in these houses, this may be of interest. This was the specifics on the reports with which I was familiar. Jorg Ostrowski ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 18:33:46 From: +Gordon Howell To: Jorg Ostrowski Subject: Dynamic wall systems >Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 10:01:36 -0700 >From: Wil Mayhew >To: Gordon Howell >Subject: Dynamic wall systems > >There was a report done on the dynamic wall house in Edmonton. > > DYNAMIC WALL DEMONSTRATION PROJECT > Report Consolidation: V. MacKay, P.Eng, > Alberta Municipal Affairs > ISBN: 0-88654-319-3 > >This report consoldidated 2 separate reports; one done by Lincolnberg on >the design and construction and one done by HME on the computerized >monitoring and analysis. > >Wil Mayhew >Howell-Mayhew Engineering >Ph: +1 403 484 0476 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 15:18:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05381 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:18:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15183; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:08:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:04:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA14771 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:04:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA14763 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:04:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA08366 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:09:58 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005A87F; Mon, 16 Mar 98 13:59:08 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 14:08:53 -0600 Message-ID: <0005A87F.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: Durability and framing materials - Envir. impacts To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2587 In regard to the previous email discussion about the environmental impacts of building materials, you might want to read the publication "Comparing the Environmental Effects of Building Systems - A Case Study". In this report, they modelled a building made from three materials - wood, steel, concrete - and compared the impacts of each material. The "Water Pollution Index" showed that the steel structure generates 120 times as much pollution as wood, and the concrete generates 1.9 times as much water pollution as wood. In regard to embodied energy(extraction plus manufacturing energy), the steel structure resulted in about 2X the E.E. of the wood structure, and the concrete structure had about 1.5X the E.E. of the wood structure. In their "Greenhouse Gas Index", the wood structure rated about 70, the steel structure about 100, and the concrete structure approximately 130. You can order a free copy of this study from: Canadian Wood Council, 1400 Blair Place, Suite 210, Ottawa, ON K1J 9B8, Canada. - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 16:35:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA06867 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:35:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18967; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:21:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA18574 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:21:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA18562 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:21:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.90] (pm0a22.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.122]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA12966; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:27:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:27:31 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <0005A86A.1762@us.teltech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Anyone using "SolarWall"? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2588 At 12:06 PM -0600 3/16/98, Patrick Pierquet wrote: > I received info from a company called Conserval. They make a very > interesting product called SolarWall, which is a ribbed metal panel, > perforated with many tiny holes. The panel is installed on the south > side of a house, and is apparently an extremely efficient collector of > solar energy.....they claim that SolarWall can raise the temperature > of ventilation makeup air by 50 degrees F. over ambient, on a sunny > winter day. It looks like a fairly easy do-it-yourself project, and > their prices look very attractive. It looks like it might be an > environmentally-friendly replacement for heat-recovery ventilators. > Has anyone had experience with this product, and can you comment on > its performance? We wrote a product review of SolarWall in January, 1996 (EBN, Vol. 5, No. 1). I am fairly sure that the product review is up on our Website--look under past issues for product reviews. I agree; it's an interesting product that offers some significant benefits. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 16:51:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA07053 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:51:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA19918; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:42:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:38:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA19500 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:38:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19493 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:38:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.90] (pm0a22.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.122]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA18996; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:44:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:44:33 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199803161700.RAA01906@november.diac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Buzz Burrell , "GreenBuilding List" From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: north windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2589 At 10:01 AM -0600 3/16/98, Buzz Burrell wrote: > >It seems important to note that "diffuse radiation" and radiation on >overcast days is not the same. Shorter waves will slice right through >cloud cover, thus reducing but not eliminating direct solar gain on >properly orientated glazing. (I'll never forget this point, as I once >sustained a first-second degree sunburn over my entire body while skiing >off the summit of Mauna Kea on a densely overcast day while wearing >nothing but a bathing suit). OTOH, you could be standing behind a rock >on the summit of Mt Everest and hardly get a tan; diffuse radiation >won't do that. If I understand the difference between diffuse and specular solar radiation correctly, a good way to think of it is to picture yourself being on the moon. If you were to stand in the shadow of your lunar lander, it would be very dark (having never done this, it is only conjecture of course), while if you stand in the shade of your barn on a sunny day it would still be very light. That's because on the moon there isn't an atmosphere to scatter some of those incoming photons, while on earth there is--even on a clear day. On top of Mount Everest there is less atmosphere to scatter the sunlight, so the shadows are probably darker than down here (again, I reluctantly have to admit that I haven't been there to check this theory out). > >The above actually refers mostly to UV, which also isn't the same >wavelength as what warms a solar heated house, so I would like to restate >my question: How much solar gain comes from diffuse radiation? (Not >direct radiation diffused through a cloud cover). I've always assumed >the answer was "none", but I don't know. (Keep in mind, if there's a >vertical snowbank outside the north window, that's reflective radiation, >not diffuse). Establishing if true diffuse radiation will add actual >solar gain through a modern window remains a question that has to be >answered if we are to intelligently answer the overall north window >question. The issue becomes fairly complex when one factors in the new >glazings, which filter out different solar wavelengths depending on what >one has bought. > Actually, I believe the reflected sunlight coming off your snowbank _is_ diffuse--since it's not reflected in a way that keeps the light beams parallel (that's _specular_ reflection, as would occur with a mirror). Sandia Labs had done a study of specular vs. diffuse radiation a long time ago (about 1980?) when they were doing research on concentrating collectors. Concentrating collectors depend entirely on specular radiation, while non-concentrating solar apertures (windows, flat-plate collectors, etc.) can work with both specular and diffuse radiation. I suspect you could dig up very good studies with the specular and diffuse components of solar radiation in different climates--talk to the folks at NREL or Sandia who have worked on the power towers. -Alex Wilson Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 18:25:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA08412 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:25:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA24151; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:16:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:12:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA23783 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:12:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA23778 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:12:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from van-as-01b09.direct.ca (kadulski) [204.174.248.25] by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yEj9L-0003wM-00; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:18:31 -0800 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: north windows Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:18:48 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2590 > Buzz Burrell wrote: > > I've read Terry's well documented and well reasoned post, but I still > don't understand it. Since VIEW is a big design issue here in the > expansive west, there is occasionally pressure to include a lot of north > facing glazing in a house, which I have always resisted doing. Jorg and > Terrys apparent opinion that this is acceptable is of great interest, and > so I would like help clarifying this issue This may be an architect's perspective, but we must not forget that buildings are not machines in which we happen to live (contrary to what LeCorbusier pushed - and I used to believe this). Most of us on the list are technically inclined, and tend to slavishly look for definitive numbers, forgetting basics. In the case of housing, buildings are meant to provide not only a basic shelter but also should provide a humane environment, in tune with its site. This may seem like a fine distinction, but I think it is very important and one we can't forget. In many areas, it may mean that there are views that must be captured, that happen to face the north. Fortunately, the glazing technology has changed drastically in the last 10 years, so that we can easily get windows with a centre of glass R 8 - 12 value. (Heat Mirror with multiple film layers is one such product that's commercialy available today). I am not advocating that capturing views needs wall to wall, floor to ceiling glass - it can be framed judiciously for good effect too. Rather, we must capture the feeling of the place too, and that may mean north views and north windows. > I also don't understand the "...direct solar gain through north facing > windows..." theory. While its certainly the case that the solar angle is > briefly north of east and west in all non-tropical latitudes during the 6 > months between the spring and fall equinoxes, I believe in most locations > this has NO useful affect on solar gain. Seven reasons immediately come > to mind: > 1. This effect takes place mainly when the sun is low in the horizon, > (early and late in the day). At this time, solar radiation is often > obscured by buildings, elevated topography, or vegetation, either on the > horizon line or nearby. At 49 degrees north, on April 21 the sun is at 20 degrees above the horizon when it's due east (this compares to 20 degrees above the horizon when due south on January 21). That early morning, late evening sun can provide usefull heat gain for some climates in the shoulder season. Obviously, this is a site specific issue also. > 2. The amount of atmosphere, moisture, and pollution at the low solar > angles greatly reduces solar gain. > 3. Likewise, the times during which NE or NW light might penetrate a > direct N facing window, the angle of solar insolation to the glazing is > so acute, I believe most of it will be reflected out, particularly with > double glazing. > 4. The window and frame assemblies themselves will provide a surprising > amount of shading at these acute angles; a window with divided lights > can shade itself. These issues obviously become something that has to be considered on a site specific application, depending on latitude, local topography, even climatic conditions (some areas are subject to morning fogs, etc). > 5. Is is possible Terry's calculations were done on an annual model > rather than just for the real heating season? This probably isn't true > if you live where Jorg does, but where I live, by the time of year the > sun rises and sets far enough to the north to provide a reasonable angle > for meaningful solar gain through a north facing window, we no longer > need or want solar gain. I can't stress enough that we must be careful generalizing when site specific conditions are so important. I think back a number of years when Doug Balcomb first developed the passive solar design guidelines. In effect, the guidelines were based on south-western US (New Mexico) experience [and everyone was trying to incorporate trombe walls into their house!]. However, there was a tendency to extrapolate them to all other conditions - whether or not it made sense. The result was that the guidelines suggestions for a house in Winnipeg (winter design temperature -25 F, and one of the areas with long, cold winters) was that a good passive solar design would have virtually the entire south wall in glass, with lots of mass! Today we know that high mass construction is not very effective at high latitudes, and there can be considerable heat loss from very large glass areas even if they are on the south. > 7. Occupant comfort is the last issue; I would have to believe that > during a cold evening, a well insulated wall will feel better to be near, > due to less radiant heat loss, than all but the best window. This is perhaps a key consideration that must not be forgotten. Fortunately, with high performance glazings, we shouldn't be facing too many conditions of extremely low temperatures. > > In summary, there appears to be good reasons why the Passive Solar > Industries Council, after a 3 year study in conjunction what was then > called the Solar Energy Research Institute (now NREL) and Los Alamos > National Laboratory, stated unequivocally: "North windows in almost any > climate lose significant heat energy and gain very little useful sunlight > in the winter". Indeed, their findings are so conclusive, they state > that E and W windows (let alone N) might also be net heat losers (if one > factors in the difficulty of shading them from heat gain during the > summer). This study is dated, window performance has improved since > then, and this formula loses credence the farther one is located from the > equator, but I still don't understand how N windows would provide useful > solar gain for most locations in the continental US. I think this is a case of guidelines and generalizations to deal with the "lowest common denominator" - the standard spec builder approach. The evidence is begining to mount that good high performance windows can be net energy contributors on all orientations - but it depends on products specs and location. ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seymour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 18:29:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA08443 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:29:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA24611; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:20:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:16:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24134 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:16:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24129 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:16:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from LitHowie@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 2AGBa11851; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:22:07 -0500 (EST) From: LitHowie Message-ID: <3c9b9f69.350db421@aol.com> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:22:07 EST To: jean_gallagher@macgate.csuchico.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: DREAM HOUSE Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2591 Take Heart..not all of us consumers have that kind of "Dream House" in mind!! I will go out of my way to find a responsible (read: environmentally sensitive & educated) designer and builder and am willing to spend more money upfront if necessary to be sure that I am not a resource hog. Even though I am just a middle-income consumer, in my mind the value of a small well-built house outweighs the wastefullness of a pretentious image-boosting monstrosity. I grew up in a circa 1780's New England house and although it was uninsulated & cold it was built to last and periodic maintenance means it is still lasting. It's value in the market today is exceptional because people understand that historic houses were built with craftsmanship and quality and were not meant to be "disposable". Hang-in there all of you green-builders as your day will come!! Kate Howard ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 18:56:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA08722 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:56:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA26285; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:47:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:43:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA25954 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:43:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA25948 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 18:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.100.13]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA23880 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:48:07 +0000 Message-ID: <350DB187.1E5F5431@which.net> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:11:03 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: north windows X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <2592893@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2592 According to this analysis an R12 glass wall will gain more than it loses, so all walls should be window systems. We just need a system to exclude the excess summer insolation, such as intelligently controlled shading / reflection between the triple panes, curtains or blinds inside for privacy, and voila. I think I read that Jorg has an R15? window? Malcolm Scott Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > For Boston, the heating degree days for Dec - Feb are 3071. The heat > lost > through one ft2 of glass that is R-6 is (3071 x 24)/6 = 12,284 > Btu/ft2. From > ASHRAE 97 Fundamentals, Table 18, SHGF for 40 NL, the average clear > day solar > radiation passing through a single glazed (ASHRAE - what can you do?) > north > facing window is 104, 122, 168 Btu/ft2 Dec- Feb respectively. Divide > by 0.88 > to get solar radiation incident on the window, and assume that clear > day and > non-clear day are similar for the north elevation, since no direct > insolation > is present. Multiply by 60% SHGC for the R-6 glass. Total gain for > the three > month period is 7,984 Btu/ft2. Net for the period is a 4300 Btu/ft2 > loss. > > An hourly simulation software would do better on several counts, but I > doubt it > would change the overall conclusion. > > By comparison, the R-28 wall has no gain and loses 2,632 Btu/ft2 > during the > same period. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 19:26:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA09031 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:26:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA27953; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:17:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:13:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA27603 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA27594 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:13:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from speedy.ampsc.com (saturn.ampsc.com [207.102.161.181]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA10616; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:21:52 -0800 Message-ID: <350DC1BC.426D@ampsc.com> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 16:20:12 -0800 From: R J Moore Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Patrick Pierquet CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Durability and framing materials - Envir. impacts References: <0005A87F.1762@us.teltech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2593 Patrick Pierquet wrote: > > In regard to the previous email discussion about the environmental > impacts of building materials, you might want to read the publication > "Comparing the Environmental Effects of Building Systems - A Case > Study". > You can order a free copy of this study from: Canadian Wood Council, > 1400 Blair Place, Suite 210, Ottawa, ON K1J 9B8, Canada. You can also grab a copy off their net site at: http://www.cwc.ca/wrr.html where there are three other bulletins of note. Richard Moore CEO Eco-Systems Unlimited - Sustaining Safe and Healthy Occupancies Development Management, Building Systems Analysis, Indoor Air Environment Specialists, Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 20:17:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA09515 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:17:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA00870; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:09:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:04:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA00074 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:03:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from misc.twics.com (misc.twics.com [192.135.222.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA00062 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:03:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp56-max01.twics.com (ppp56-max01.twics.com [202.237.149.183]) by misc.twics.com (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA27217 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:10:18 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980317093644.2d17defc@twics.com> X-Sender: tokyov@twics.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:36:44 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Kurt Vogel Subject: GBlist: SOLARWALL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2594 I noticed Patrick Peirquet's post and Alex Wilson's reply regarding SOLARWALL, and thought I'd put in my 2 cents since I now know quite a bit about this subject. It so happens that I first found out about this product from EBN's review, and joined my partners at Logos Systems in Tokyo, Japan, to obtain an exclusive license for SOLARWALL in the Japanese market. Dozens of SOLARWALLs have been installed in the US and Canada with customers including major corporations like GM, Ford, Bombardier and McDonnell-Douglas. I have seen a number of them and talked with the satisfied customers. The first Japanese Solarwall will be completed this month on a factory in Gunma Prefecture, another one will be completed in Sapporo in May, and several others are under negotiation. The response in Japan has been excellent, and we expect a large number of Solarwalls to be installed very soon, ranging from factories to homes to crop drying installations in southern climes. The product has been featured in top industry publications in Japan, and has impressed a lot of top people in the field. Conserval has done an impressive job of developing this product, and with the help of the Canadian government (as well support from the US government) they have excellent software for estimating/optimizing energy savings and optimum Solarwall design. They have extensive monitoring results of actual installations that prove how well the product works - generally better than computer simulations. This product not only makes environmental sense, it actually saves money. It can even be used in conjunction with other technologies like PV panels to improve overall efficiency and cost/performance. Paybacks are very fast because the product is simple and cheap with no maintenance problems - certainly from a commercial standpoint it's the best solar technology I've ever seen, which is why we licensed it and have successfully sublicensed it to major Japanese manufacturers. I'd certainly recommend that anybody in Canada, the US, or elsewhere who needs heated fresh air in a building or hot air for crop drying (or who wants to work with Conserval to market this product) contact them. Again, their web page is at http://www.solarwall.com -Kurt Vogel ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 20:47:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA09770 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:47:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA02354; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:38:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:34:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA02052 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:33:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA02047 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:33:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id UAA04171 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:38:32 -0500 Message-id: <2608410@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 16 Mar 98 20:46:32 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: north windows To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2595 --- You wrote: According to this analysis an R12 glass wall will gain more than it loses, so all walls should be window systems. --- end of quote --- Only if it has a fairly high solar heat gain coefficient - as the R value increases the solar transmission has typically dropped. Also - beware the "average gain exceeds the average loss, so the window is a net gain" conclusion. Solar gains must be *utilizable* - that is, they must occur when needed, and if the gain exceeds the need, they must be stored. Many passive solar houses would be 100% solar heated if all gains were utilizable. The fallacy in the average approach is this issue of utilizability, and the issue of what happens when you have the week of dark cloudy weather with no sun. As houses get down to lower and lower energy use, the variability of the weather gets more important. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 21:06:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA09994 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03650; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:57:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:53:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA03334 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:53:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03330 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:53:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.3] (blf3.acadia.net [205.217.217.3]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA25773 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:00:05 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 21:00:47 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: north windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2596 Marc wrote: >The all glass house, with high R-value, glazing that has tunable transmission >of heat and light, has been dreamed of for many years, and is closer to >becoming a reality. I don;t think it's there today, but it will be in our >careers, Buzz. end of quote. Quite possibly, but who would want to live in it? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 22:29:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA11559 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:29:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA06397; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:20:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:16:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA06099 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:15:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06095 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id WKE07999; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:20:39 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:54:48 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Re: HVAC discussion Message-ID: <19980316.195450.3462.1.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 5-11 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2597 sorry to rehash an old issue- could anyone send me the old thread on HVAC contractors ROT's vs calcs- seems i dumped it and now there is a big debate at work over this issue- one coworker is "convinced" (without evidence) that all HVAC companies will do the calcs-"after all they are professionals,else they wouldnt be in business" i am also curious what ROT's are used- as the discussion noted some are fairly accurate. thanks Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 23:03:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11906 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:03:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA07988; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:54:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:50:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07696 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:50:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07692 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:50:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip02.ivnet.net [206.101.73.162]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA11344; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 11:54:28 -0800 Message-ID: <350DB2AD.F313CEB8@ivnet.net> Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:15:57 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dmelchert@earthlink.net CC: John Salmen , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: What's In a Home References: <233a23c4.34f6c4a9@aol.com> <34F71EFD.1EE693E2@cow-net.com> <34F76FE5.5C13@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2598 David Seth Melchert wrote: > As a builder, here is the bind with high-efficiency framing: I equate > this stuff with cheap tract kind of work. Here in the SF Bay Area I have > yet to find an engineer who promotes this kind of framing. In fact, in > the last 9 years (since the Loma Prieta EQ) there has been a dramitic > increase in the engineering rigor of house frames. 6x8 headers for a 6' > patio door opening, extended blocking "collectors" for openings in shear > diaphragms, etc etc. > > For myself I can only agree: this goes hand in hand with a sense of > durability and quality, which in turn promotes a sense of sustainability > in our products. Single plates and 24" framing make a flimsy wall in my > opinion. Watch the wall surfaces wiggle in and out too. > > Are there any esteemed engineers out there on the GBlist who can argue > convincingly that efficient framing is consistent with quality? I'd love > to hear your arguements. But until then, I will stick to the miles of > blocking and conservative but solid schemes I see on S1, S2 etc. > > Seth Melchert > Master Builders Seth,Mostly I agree with you, and I'll stick to the miles of blocking spec'ed out on S1 & S2. But its nice to examine buildings which have failed in a quake or an explosion, and see where they come apart. Even in a building I saw that had been ripped apart by a gas explosion, not one of the headers had snapped. Mostly things come apart at the connections. So I think using a 6x8 header on 6-0 opening is wasteful, unless there's a concentrated load coming down on it. Not only does it chew up lumber, (which out of my window looks like trees or forests), but it costs in energy efficiency for the life of the building. I've got no problems wwith installing all the nails in the seismic hardware, that seems like good practice to me. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma, Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 16 23:09:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11988 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:09:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08379; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 23:00:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:56:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08075 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08071 for ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 22:56:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.78] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0); Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:08:55 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: HVAC discussion Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:02:11 -0800 x-sender: bruce@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1322043556-3929673@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2599 >sorry to rehash an old issue- could anyone send me the old thread on HVAC >contractors ROT's vs calcs- seems i dumped it and now there is a big >debate at work over this issue- one coworker is "convinced" (without >evidence) that all HVAC companies will do the calcs-"after all they are >professionals,else they wouldnt be in business" i am also curious what >ROT's are used- as the discussion noted some are fairly accurate. This is a good time to remind everyone that our discussion has been saved for posterity. (So watch what you say!) You can search the complete archives on the CREST web site. So if you need to find an item that has already been discussed, please check the archives. To find them, go to CREST and select the button that says "Discussion Groups." Our humble group can be found on the resulting list. Thanks Bruce S. list nanny of the week -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 17 00:55:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA14465 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 00:55:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA11904; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 00:47:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Mar 1998 00:42:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11676 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 00:42:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11672 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 00:42:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.43]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 4082100 ; Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:39:18 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980316092751.00696304@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:27:51 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Fuel Cells Cc: "Andrew M. Shapiro" In-Reply-To: <199803150700.CAA02524@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2600 >Can you recommend a good reference -- articles or otherwise -- on fuel >cells? > Try the National Hydrogen Assn at www.ttcorp.com/nha. A search at the DOE EREN site turned up over 13000 responses to the query "fuel cells". The first ten pointed to a FEMP fact sheet and a DOE grant program. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 17 08:44:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA18820 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:44:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA22865; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:34:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:30:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA22586 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:30:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.state.vt.us (mail.state.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA22582 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:30:17 -0500 (EST) From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Received: from vdhvax ([159.105.135.2]) by mail.state.vt.us (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-44988U13000L13000S0) with SMTP id AAA180 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:44:43 -0500 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:32:10 -0500 Message-Id: <98031708321017@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: north windows -Reply X-VMS-To: SMTP%"greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2601 I've seen a couple of posts now which I read to say "if north windows gain heat, then let's forego other wall systems and use window-walls" Let's not forget that although very important, thermal considerations are not the only issues with respect to homes, or even walls. Walls keep those sticks (blown by the wind) and stones (thrown by people frustrated with this silly post) out. Many wall systems outperform windows in this regard. They also make a nice place to hang my kids' artwork. North windows can work. It doesn't mean we should stop thinking, however. Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 17 09:12:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA19131 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:11:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23815; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:00:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:56:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA23509 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:55:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23504 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 08:55:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82416; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:01:07 -0700 Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:01:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: gerald martin Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Building, Energy, & North windows In-Reply-To: <350909A1.2DFE@navix.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2602 You said: " Sure would like to know where I could get some of those triple glazed windows that are like a 2x6 wall that Stephen Thwaites spoke of..." ________________________________________________________________________ Gerald: I would take the cost of that BIG north you want, reduce its size significantly, and spend your money on the upgrade to at least an R-6 to R-12 (off-the-shelf) window. After 27,000 visitors to our home, not one has noticed the light difference between the R-5.21 south windows and our R-17 west window, both in the living room. We also live with several R-12 windows which can be appropriate in cold climates for small glazing areas, where high humidity and comfort are paramount criteria. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 17 09:49:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA19697 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:49:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25446; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:36:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:32:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25016 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:32:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.vineyard.net (mail@NS.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25012 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:32:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mail.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23660 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:38:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:38:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy7.vineyard.net(206.166.158.65) by mail.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id smaa23642; Tue Mar 17 09:38:43 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: north windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2603 >Marc wrote: > >>The all glass house, with high R-value, glazing that has tunable transmission >>of heat and light, has been dreamed of for many years, and is closer to >>becoming a reality. I don;t think it's there today, but it will be in our >>careers, Buzz. >David wrote: > >Quite possibly, but who would want to live in it? The answer: a tomato plant. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 17 09:50:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA19705 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:50:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25557; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:38:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:34:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25119 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:33:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.vineyard.net (mail@NS.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25114 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:33:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by mail.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA23809 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:40:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:40:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy7.vineyard.net(206.166.158.65) by mail.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma023642; Tue Mar 17 09:39:50 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Rot resistant wood Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2604 I have had some inquiries about salvaged and certified wood. A valuable resource is The Good Wood Directory, published by the Certified Forest Products Council in Oregon. It's an extensive listing of wood sources and products: certified, non-certified but well sourced, recycled, etc. The last issue was published in 1996 and can be found at their web site at www.certifiedwood.org. or you can call Sheila at (503) 590-6600. Their 1998 version should be released in several months. Good organization to join and support as well. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 17 10:49:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20532 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:49:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29187; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:40:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:36:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28588 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:35:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28578 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:35:41 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id K{T06755; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:41:26 EST To: goldeneagle1@juno.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:53:07 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Re: HVAC discussion Message-ID: <19980317.095418.3678.1.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <19980316.195450.3462.1.goldeneagle1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-4,7-16,18-41 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2605 HVAC Principles and Applications Manual Thomas Mull McGraw-Hill Publishers $79.95 Contains real world examples, tables and charts to calculate heating & cooling loads, size and select air distribution units, design duct systems, and build fan and central air systems. Also contains a very good section on that dirty word "controls". Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 19:54:48 -0700 goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) writes: >sorry to rehash an old issue- could anyone send me the old thread on >HVAC contractors ROT's vs calcs- seems i dumped it and now there is a >big debate at work over this issue- one coworker is "convinced" >(without evidence) that all HVAC companies will do the calcs-"after >all they are professionals,else they wouldnt be in business" i am also >curious what ROT's are used- as the discussion noted some are fairly >accurate. > >thanks > >Samantha M. >Holistic Homeplaces >Denver, CO >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get >completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno >at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 17 10:52:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20565 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:52:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29623; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:43:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:38:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28918 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:38:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28912 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:38:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA16386; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:44:16 -0800 Message-ID: <350E9997.4405A1C7@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:41:11 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: north windows References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2606 Speaking of glass houses, Philip Johnson mentioned something to the effect that it took local birds something like 30 years (how many bird generations would that be) to stop killing themselves on his house. I wonder if they simply left the area? John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 17 11:17:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA21014 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:17:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00998; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:05:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:01:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00557 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:01:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from rtkl.com (firewall-user@fire-out.rtkl.com [208.197.182.75]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00546 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:01:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by rtkl.com; id MAA07859; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:15:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from eddie.rtkl.com(10.110.2.2) by fire-out.rtkl.com via smap (3.2) id xma007845; Tue, 17 Mar 98 12:14:54 -0500 Received: by eddie.RTKL.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD518C.9CC79A00@eddie.RTKL.com>; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:08:20 -0600 Message-ID: From: Jay Yowell To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: sustainable resource guide Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:08:19 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2607 Wow!! What an incredible group for discussing the "green" industry!! I work for a corporate architecture firm in Dallas that I am leading a Sustainable Design Team for (I wish it was not separate, but just an integral part of our design -- hopefully soon). I am constantly learning from your discussions that I in turn convey to our clients and peers. Thank you. Also, I am the chairman for the Dallas AIA Committee on the Environment where I also pass along your insights on the "green" industry. We recently took a tour of one of Barbara Harwood's projects -- I noticed there was a posting about her in one of your discussions. I was wanting to let you know that throught the AIA, I have been working on the "Sustainable Resource Guide for the Dallas / Fort Worth Region", and it should be complete in the next month. We included products, manufacturers, builders, etc. that were sustainable and were in a 100 mile radius of DFW. If you know of any information to be included, please let me know. Our goal is to raise the awareness of sustainable design in the Dallas area -- which desperately needs it -- and to have more manufacturers become green in our area. I will keep you posted when it is ready for purchase. Thank you again for all of your quotes, insights, and in-depth discussions. Jay Yowell 214.871.8877 jyowell@dal.rtkl.com jay y. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 17 12:12:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21935 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:12:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04732; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:03:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:59:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04225 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:59:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04215 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:59:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from RodLambert@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4SXRa20454 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:05:13 -0500 (EST) From: RodLambert Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 12:05:13 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: north windows Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2608 An interesting thread. I'm still wondering if the picture is complete. What would it be like to live in a glass house at the 'break even point' presumably lower than the R-12 suggested by Malcolm as one would only need to match the heat loss by an R-28 wall. What would be the capital, maintenance, operating and environmental costs of the resultant system? What would the lower r value walls feel like on a long cold night with all that cool air convecting off the glass. What would it feel like on a sunny day especially if there was insufficient thermal mass (capital costs?) Costs of curtains or other thermal screens? I notice that even at R6 the window loses 63% more heat than the R28 wall. Rod Lambert Development Management Second Neighborhood Group Ecovillage at Ithaca NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 17 17:09:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA27771 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:09:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA21987; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:59:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:53:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA21572 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:53:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21564 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:53:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id QcR15555; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:57:58 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 16:59:23 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Freestanding toilet facility Message-ID: <19980317.165926.23054.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-4,9-10,12,15-16,19-20,22,24-25,27-32 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2609 Hi, listers, I just got a call from someone with a situation that is out of my realm of expertise and hope you can offer some advice. A local group here (S. Florida) has built a meditation center on the back of a private home. The problem is that 1) the number of people wishing to use it has grown to about 40 and 2) the toilet in the home is not sufficient to handle the load and 3) they are over code capacity re the toilet facility. They tried renting a Portalet but the space is such that it would be difficult to service. They would like to build or buy a toilet unit. They are in an area which is on septic system so would like to consider a composting unit (remember, due to high water table, no basements). I know some time back there was someone doing composting units for a park system. Was it freestanding and if so, how complicated is the catch system for an area where excavation could be a problem? I will be referring them to a plumbing contractor or related professional, but I am not sure if anyone here is at all familar with the workings of units like Clivus Multrum and the like. I will also go to back issues of EBN but I would like to hear some practical suggestions. Thanks. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL 33433 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 17 17:51:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA28707 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:51:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA24280; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:41:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:37:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23782 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:37:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ipinc.ipinc.net (ns.fta.com [205.139.102.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23774 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 17:37:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from hysave (ip-port-cs3-41.ipinc.net [206.29.173.169]) by ipinc.ipinc.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA27644 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:44:44 -0800 Message-ID: <350EFF85.63D5@hysave.com> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:56:05 -0800 From: Russ Smith Reply-To: info@hysave.com Organization: Hy-Save, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Info regarding HVAC/R Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2610 Sorry, I forgot who asked the original question however here are several books that many of you may find to be valued additions to your reference library. Business News Publishing. Their URL is http://www.bnp.com/, or you may call 1 800 837 1037 to order direct from the publisher. "Troubleshooting and Servicing Modern Air Conditioning and Refrigeration" by John Tomczyk $34.95 "Alternative Refrigerants" by Richard Jazwin $49.95 "Introduction to HVAC: How to Calculate Heating and Cooling Loads" by Thomas Mull $27.95 These are all very good reference books. I hope this is helpful. Russ Smith http://www.hysave.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 17 19:50:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA00062 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:50:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00036; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:40:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:36:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA29646 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:35:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA29640 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:35:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.198.23.17] (uA1-a16.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.17]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA11125 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:22:46 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:30:05 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: Special Issue of J. of Industrial Ecology on Paper and Wood Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2611 Hi folks, Thought this might be of interest to GBlisters so I'm forwarding it from the ecdm list. - Terry >Sender: Environmentally Conscious Design & Mfg List > >From: Reid Lifset >Dear colleagues, > >The Journal of Industrial Ecology has published a special issue on the >industrial ecology of paper and wood. The issue includes summaries of three >major comprehensive studies of the production, consumption and waste >management of paper and wood from: > >** the Environmental Defense Fund Paper Task Force (EDF PTF), >** the International Institute for Environment and Development (IIED), and >** Maureen Smith of the University of California, Los Angeles. > >The issue includes an edited transcript of a 3 week long e-mail roundtable >between the authors. > >The issue also includes important research papers on the industrial ecology >of forest products: >*an analysis of the dynamics of production growth, waste paper utilization >and technology diffusion needed to accomplish the goals set out by the >American Forest & Paper Assocation's AGENGA 2020 for recycling, energy >efficiency and biomass use. > >and > >** a pathbreaking study of where in the product life cycle (forestry, >milling or consumption and waste management) the greatest potential for >leverage to conserve forests lies. > > For further information, visit the Journal's web site -- >http://mitpress.mit.edu/JIE > > The Journal of Industrial Ecology is a peer-reviewed international >quarterly published by MIT Press for Yale University. > >(Please excuse any cross postings.) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 17 21:37:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA02265 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:37:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA04654; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:28:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:24:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA04228 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:24:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.northlink.com (root@prescott.northlink.com [209.75.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA04224 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:24:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.75.160.122] (pm2-28.northlink.com [209.75.160.122]) by smtp.northlink.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA07326 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:30:34 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:30:34 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: azdream@northlink.com (Frank/Lin/Cody) Subject: GBlist: Sign on + metal roof ? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2612 Greetings from Arizona, Does anyone have any metal roofing solutions for a 24'x48' single slope (low! 1:12) shed type roof for a garage/studio in a hot dry climate. To further complicate matters I'd like to do it over 1x4 purlins 12"-16" on center with a dead air space, then a radiant barrier , then rafters. Roofing contractors around here look at me as if I'm crazy. Am I ? (as far as roofs go). Oh, I also need this roof to be user friendly to install for the owner/builder (me). Flame on... Thanks in advance, Frank ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 17 22:49:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA03001 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:49:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA07039; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:40:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:35:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA06694 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:35:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06685 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip06.ivnet.net [206.101.73.166]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01834; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:39:32 -0800 Message-ID: <350F4143.5876B0FA@ivnet.net> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:36:36 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: ashcreek@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: SBWIN References: <1.5.4.32.19980316180201.006a488c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2613 David F. Lambertson wrote: Maybe this is a matter of damned if you do and damned it you don't, but it is my understanding that it's much better for your computer to leave it onall the time, that turning it off at the end of the day or more often is the quickest way to wear it out. Ref. both the manufacturer and my computer guru. But then I don't use AutoCad so degenerating commands aren't a problem. Sacie Lambertson The way I heard it, heat is one of the main causes of chip failure. So I guess that turning them off and then on again quickly, before they have much chance to cool off, would not lengthen their lifespan that much. But turning it off for long enough too cool off would, and would also save energy. I've heard that computers are starting to be a significant power draw in the US. Monitors could be turned off easily if your system is hard to restart. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 17 23:02:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03165 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:02:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA07585; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:53:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:49:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07243 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:48:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07236 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:48:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip06.ivnet.net [206.101.73.166]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01947; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:50:46 -0800 Message-ID: <350F43E3.7976BA8B@ivnet.net> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:47:48 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Bolman CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Agriboard Rumor References: <01bd4f11$1fff3820$LocalHost@home.efn.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2614 Robert Bolman wrote: > Has anyone heard about Agriboard Industries coming under scrutiny for the > suprisingly high R-Value claims being made of their straw core panel > products? I heard that subsequent to testing they gave up on the inflated numbers. Bruce ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 17 23:26:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03362 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:26:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08449; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:17:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:13:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08193 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:12:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08188 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:12:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA06004 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:19:01 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <350F4143.5876B0FA@ivnet.net> References: <1.5.4.32.19980316180201.006a488c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:18:05 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: Re: computer turn off/on issue Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2615 98.03.17 2315est With the proliferation of energy saver cpus & periphs, this is fast becoming a non issue, really. I rarely turn my Mac, monitor or printer off, since they power down to almost nothing on their own when left unused for a short time. Set the times for powerdown according to your usage patterns. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 00:03:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA03823 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 00:03:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10013; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:54:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:49:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA09637 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:48:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from phantom.pix.za (phantom.pix.za [196.11.62.110]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09628 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 23:48:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from Elizabeth.pixie.co.za (pm1-24.ptb.pix.za [196.28.146.185]) by phantom.pix.za (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA16541; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 06:54:55 +0200 (GMT) Message-Id: <199803180454.GAA16541@phantom.pix.za> Reply-To: From: "Elisabeth Goyvaerts" To: , "Beverly A. Weiter" Subject: Re: GBlist: Freestanding toilet facility Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 06:55:49 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2616 hi everyone, a note from down under South Africa along the same lines in South Afrrica there is a tremendous water shortage any ideas of an environmentally safe dry composting toilet? the majority of people use septic pits with overflow in soak-aways there must be something positive one could do with all the waste in high densities these toilets contribute to Salmonella contamination of ground water thank you liz ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 01:34:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA04661 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:34:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA12075; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:25:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:20:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA11775 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:20:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.inreach.com (mail.inreach.com [209.142.0.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA11768 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:19:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from slininger (209-142-10-47.stk.inreach.net [209.142.10.47]) by mail.inreach.com (8.8.8/8.8.6/(InReach)) with ESMTP id WAA05835 for ; Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:22:40 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803180622.WAA05835@mail.inreach.com> Reply-To: From: "Kim Slininger" To: Subject: GBlist: Toilet retrofit kits Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:31:24 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2617 Does anyone know of a retrofit kit for 5 gal capacity American Standard toilets? I'd like to know if we can get such a kit to modify a 5 gallon flusher to the pressure tank type of flush that uses 1.5 gallons and hits the material with house pressure rather than gravity. We took about 60 of the old units out of the Yosemite Lodge area and I would like to use the fixtures again rather than crushing them. Any ideas out there? Kim Slininger Yosemite National Park Valley Buildings and Grounds Supervisor ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 01:40:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA04740 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:40:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA12459; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:31:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:27:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA12138 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:26:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mag1.magmacom.com (mag1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.210]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12133 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:26:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from port251.magma.ca (port251.magma.ca [206.191.5.251]) by mag1.magmacom.com (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id BAA22573; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:32:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:32:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803180632.BAA22573@mag1.magmacom.com> X-Sender: stephen@mail.magmacom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: malcolm.scott@which.net From: stephen@thermotechwindows.com (Stephen Thwaites) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: north windows Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2618 on March 16 Malcom Scott wrote: >According to this analysis an R12 glass wall will gain more than it >loses, so all walls should be window systems. We just need a system to >exclude the excess summer insolation, such as intelligently controlled >shading / reflection between the triple panes, curtains or blinds >inside for privacy, and voila. I think I read that Jorg has an R15? >window? >Malcolm Scott > Aside from the usability issue which Marc addresses in a response to the posting there is a more basic point about R-values, energy efficiency and windows. When it comes to windows in cold climates R-value is not real useful. The highest R-value windows often end up blocking free heat from the sun that is so cherished by us northerners. The only single number window efficiency comparison tool for cold climates is the Energy Rating. It subtracts the frame, glass and air leakage losses from the solar gain. While not a perfect tool, it's kilometers (miles) ahead of the R-value for consumers who don't want to have their house modelled. The US window rating body - NFRC - is playing around with a similar concept to the Energy Rating, but the smart money says the big window makers will continue to keep it limbo because they use a southern Low e. While southern Low e's have better R-values, they block a lot of the free heat from the sun so they don't make sense for northerners. And the big boys (being also smart boys) don't want you to know this, lest you buy your windows elsewhere. To bring my digression back to the point about north facing windows and to illustrate my point yet again - If you were to do a Energy Rating analysis for a north facing window in Whitehorse (up near Alaska) you'd find that our publicity stunt R-20 centre glass window would be LESS energy efficient than one of our everyday Northern Low e triples (about R-6). Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ottawa Canada self promoting P.S. (?S.P.P.S.?) If you want more gruesome technical details on Energy Ratings, R-20 centre glass windows and the like, take a look at our website: www.thermotechwindows.com Within a couple of days i will have my second column posted - it's on the R-value paradox. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 01:51:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA04835 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:51:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA12883; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:42:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:37:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA12613 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:36:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA12609 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 01:36:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (xyp106p6.ltec.net [206.158.213.16]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA15848 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 00:31:46 -0600 Message-ID: <350F5FFA.11BE@navix.net> Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 21:47:38 -0800 From: gerald martin Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net Organization: Eby-Martin Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-Navix (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Building, Energy, & North windows References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2619 FMichelman wrote: > > Sharon... > > I'll get the booklet copied on Monday and send it off to you. Are you folks > planning on building and using a digestor? My knowledge is a little rusty, but > I'd certainly be glad to discuss it with you... I don't see enough interest in > what I've always considered a very valuable idea and technology... I did get > to play with one many years ago (1975) but it's been a lifetime of other > building and energy-related experiences since then... Thanks Fred. We've thought about building one for some time and know someone distantly that has built one (of sorts) but has never quite gotten to hooking it all up to see if it actually works or not. He plans on cooking with the biogas from the digester. It's neat that you actually got to play with one even if many years ago. I don't have the experience at all and am really having to start from scratch here with only the knowledge that they exist and what they are generally suppost to do. Any comments or ideas you (or anyone else) might think of to add would be appreciated. > > How old is your friend? I'll check the phone books... Long Island only has > about three million people (i'm laughing)... but for some reason, the name > sounds familiar... I think someone else on the GB list mentioned him to me > last winter... Is he an engineer? architect? builder? > > I'll write soon... fred I just found his old phone number but I have no idea if it's still good or not. He's an older (up in years now as his children are all maturely grown) fellow that I knew from the many times he flew down to El Paso when I lived and worked there (at a motel). We became good acquaintances and he was often checking into business ventures in the central part of extreme west TX. He offered my cousin and I a business idea that he wanted to head once concerning the recycling of car taillights and such, but we moved before it was even tried. He talked many times of his many Jewish friends around where he lived, but I never knew if Bob was Jewish himself. He is a kind and generous person with an open heart; he even offered his home for me to stay if I wanted to take a temporary job at the Post Office once (which I didn't at the time). That is about all I can say. I knew him on a friendship level but never knew a whole lot of details about him other than that. Sorry I can't give more factual details about his address or even profession. He seemed to have his hands into many good business ideas though of just about anything you could think of, so he's been around a lot. I do know that he is very educated, but I can't rmember in what. Before I try to call the phone number for him that I found I would like to send it to you via private email if you wouldn't mind looking it up for me to see if it still exists under his name? Thanks again, Sharon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 08:48:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08793 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:48:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21702; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:39:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:33:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21198 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:33:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21189 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:33:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.33]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 4289000 ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:51:45 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980318083100.00693258@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:31:00 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: Computer On/Off Issues Cc: Bruce In-Reply-To: <199803180700.CAA13359@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2620 >With the proliferation of energy saver cpus & periphs, this is fast >becoming a non issue, really. I rarely turn my Mac, monitor or printer >off, since they power down to almost nothing on their own when left unused >for a short time. > >Set the times for powerdown according to your usage patterns. The issue of on/off cycles affecting computers goes back to the early models. Frequent on/off cycles used to shorten the life of the hard drive. This has not been true since about the mid-1980s. Hard drives built in the last ten years (does anyone have one in use that is older?) do not suffer this problem and turning it on/off a few times a day will not affect hard drive life. The power down requirement for Energy Star compliance is less than 30 watts. At this level that equals about 175 kWh/year (16hr/day, 365 days). At $0.08/kWh this equals about $14/year. Might not be much to the individual but multiply this times millions of computers and pretty soon you need a large power plant or more to meet this load. Costly to society to build and costly to the environment to operate. Saving large amounts of energy is quite often the result of many little actions and rarely the result of a single measure. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 09:32:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09292 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23156; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:20:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:15:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22773 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22764 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:15:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA06264; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:20:29 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:20:28 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Frazer Dougherty Cc: "John R. Abrams" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: PV cogen In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980315032458.006f73e8@pop.mindspring.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2621 You said: "There also some interesting solar thermal by-products from using the slate/sheating cavity as a pre-heat system for DHW or space heat." _____________________________________________________________________________ Frazer: Although I have known about the cogeneration possibilities from Atlantis for some time, they only involve AIR and not DHW. PV up front, hot air down on the bottom. I am not sure my US contact knows what he is talking about. Do they have a water system now? Do you have a good contact. What is much more progressive is that the Conserval is working on a PV Solarwall, combining hot (make-up) air with PV. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: _____________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 10:28:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10109 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:28:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25600; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:17:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:12:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25237 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:12:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25233 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:12:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA18427; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:18:15 -0800 Message-ID: <350FE4F6.277E6782@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 07:15:03 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Beverly A. Weiter" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Freestanding toilet facility References: <19980317.165926.23054.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2622 Hi Beverly There is only a small liquid component that they have to make provision for and there are quite a few ways of dealing with this. For the park usage I am trying denitrification within the unit to control any potential problems of run-off along river frontage but it seems a shame to do this as the liquid should ideally be put to some reuse as a fertilizer. Normally you would need to make provision for about 10' of leach bed or some equivalent (reed bed, etc.) Some units incorporate evaporation. One of the big problems is that even though there are a number of excellent commercial units out there they are not all ideally suited to different situations/usages. Most people who establish a business to resell or install the units tend to focus or become representatives for one 'ideal' model which leaves the consumer in the position of having to do sort through all the competing claims and limited information that is out there to try an find a model that is suited to their particular usage. For a basic description of various types available try: http://www.nwnet.co.uk/earthwise/journal1/index.htm For the application you are describing I would probably recommend a carousel type and David Del Porto would be a good consultant for providing information about the merits of a particular application - should be a contact link for him at his website. http://www.ecological-engineering.com/ss.html John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 11:04:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10714 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:04:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27400; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:51:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:47:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26957 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:47:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26949 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:47:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.74] (pm2a24.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.184]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA12702; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:54:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:54:01 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199803180622.WAA05835@mail.inreach.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: , From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Toilet retrofit kits Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2623 At 10:31 PM -0800 3/17/98, Kim Slininger wrote: >Does anyone know of a retrofit kit for 5 gal capacity American Standard >toilets? I'd like to know if we can get such a kit to modify a 5 gallon >flusher to the pressure tank type of flush that uses 1.5 gallons and hits >the material with house pressure rather than gravity. We took about 60 of >the old units out of the Yosemite Lodge area and I would like to use the >fixtures again rather than crushing them. Any ideas out there? > I would be concerned about inadequate performance. Most of the problems people are having with toilet flushing performance with the new 1.6 gallons-per-flush toilets are from toilets that were designed to flush with a larger water volumes and then simply retrofit for lower water use. (It is these toilets that are leading to calls for repeal of the low-flush regulations by a growing group of legislators.) You will get much higher satisfaction if you use a quality toilet whose bowl was totally redesigned for 1.6 gallons. The Kohler Wellworth toilet and some of Toto's models have been very satisfactory in studies I've seen--and we have very good success with the Wellworth. Toilets and windows are examples where the better environmental choice usually is _not_ to salvage, but simply crush and recycle the old products, then install state-of-the-art new products. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 11:28:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11044 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:28:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28927; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:18:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:14:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28587 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:14:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28583 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:14:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-92-MAX-BTVT-04.ramp.together.net [208.5.164.92]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA02668; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:20:32 -0500 Message-ID: <350FF445.F5DC7D07@together.net> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:20:21 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Wilson CC: go2green@inreach.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Toilet retrofit kits References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2624 A comment on low flo water closets: Mechanical Contractors in my region Northern Vermont/ Upstate NY are experiencing sanitary piping backup problems using 1.6 Gpm water closets. My understanding, according to informal conversations w/ project forpersons, is the sizing of sanitary mains per plumbing codes results in solids not becoming entrained by fluid flow in sanitary pipe due to low flush volumes. One outlet mall near the Quebec Canadian border in NY State has had major clogging problems in sanitary for reasons stated . The contractor tells me all installed per NY code, but the public toilets clog daily. Low flow wc's installed for private toilet use have far fewer problems, apparently the reason being fewer clog able volumes of paper and whatever being less than that found in more abused public toilets. One solution I hear is attempt to layout bathroom fixtures so that sinks drain into toilet sanitary line upstream of toilet sanitary, thus the sink drainage provides frequent water flow flushing of entrained solids. This issue remains a problem when designing plumbing systems according to current plumbing codes. The codes are all based on old high volume WC design flows. I mention it so that one may consider this performance problem when considering installing low flo wc's. I wonder how our friends in Europe and elsewhere have dealt with this problem. Best Regards..... Tom Anderson Alex Wilson wrote: > At 10:31 PM -0800 3/17/98, Kim Slininger wrote: > >Does anyone know of a retrofit kit for 5 gal capacity American Standard > >toilets? I'd like to know if we can get such a kit to modify a 5 gallon > >flusher to the pressure tank type of flush that uses 1.5 gallons and hits > >the material with house pressure rather than gravity. We took about 60 of > >the old units out of the Yosemite Lodge area and I would like to use the > >fixtures again rather than crushing them. Any ideas out there? > > > I would be concerned about inadequate performance. Most of the problems > people are having with toilet flushing performance with the new 1.6 > gallons-per-flush toilets are from toilets that were designed to flush with > a larger water volumes and then simply retrofit for lower water use. (It is > these toilets that are leading to calls for repeal of the low-flush > regulations by a growing group of legislators.) You will get much higher > satisfaction if you use a quality toilet whose bowl was totally redesigned > for 1.6 gallons. The Kohler Wellworth toilet and some of Toto's models have > been very satisfactory in studies I've seen--and we have very good success > with the Wellworth. Toilets and windows are examples where the better > environmental choice usually is _not_ to salvage, but simply crush and > recycle the old products, then install state-of-the-art new products. > > Alex Wilson, Editor > Environmental Building News > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 11:40:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11218 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:40:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00187; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:27:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:22:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29283 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:22:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from teal.cr.usgs.gov (teal.cr.usgs.gov [159.189.176.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29258; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:22:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from brdsmtp2.cr.usgs.gov by teal.cr.usgs.gov (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA29808; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:28:20 -0700 Received: from ccMail by brdsmtp2.cr.usgs.gov (IMA Internet Exchange 2.11 Enterprise) id 0007E7A7; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:27:33 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:25:28 -0700 Message-ID: <0007E7A7.@usgs.gov> From: FROG@usgs.gov (FROG) Subject: GBlist: Natural Building Colloquium - East To: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2625 "the NBC-East will be an amazing event and the most unique event of 1998 on your [east] coast." JDH 1998 Natural Building Colloquium-East confirmed and invited presenters to date are listed in the flyer below. Please note that we have extended our discount dead line, please see the application below for details. Are web site can be found at 1998 Natural Building Colloquium - East June 7-13, 1998 - Dodon Farm and The Fairhaven School, Davidsonville, Maryland (electric version) For Designers, Owner-Builders, Architects, Contractors, Policy Makers, Developers, Educators, Code Officials and those interested in creating sustainable natural buildings. Join us as we explore new and traditional building and design systems. The focus of the NBC-East will be the specific needs of natural building in the eastern United States and Canada: i.e., moisture, snow loads, vapor barriers, codes, finishes etc. The NBC-East format is hands-on workshops, demos and discussions - - We will actually build several structures. Topics Include: Straw-bale, Cob, Light Clay, Timber Framing, Log Construction, Cord Wood, Thatch, Earth Bags, Cob Ovens, Clay Infill, Sustainable Design and Building, Photovoltaics, Plasters and Finishes, Sacred Space, Bamboo Construction, Living Roofs, Baubiologie, Waste Treatment Systems, Sites, Earth Sculpture, Engineered Building Materials and other Natural, Bio / Agri based and Recycled Building Materials, etc. Presenters: The foremost builders, architects, designers, innovators and others in the field of natural building have been invited. We will announce those participating as they are confirmed. Please check our web site or voice mail for updates. Attendees and others are also invited to present. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Presenters include: (those with * after their name have been invited.) Tim Ivory, Eco-Bambu, Bamboo. Doug Patterson, Environmental Building News, Engineered building products. Juliet Cuming and David Shaw, Earth Sweet Home, Straw-bale details in the NE. Judy Knox and Matts Myrhman, Out On Bale (un) Ltd., Opening Remarks and Straw-bale dome etc. David Eisenberg*, DCAT. Codes and Sustainability. Athena and Bill Steen*, Canelo Project. Collin MCGee, Thatch. Scott Carlson*, Pompanuck Far Inst.-Cord Wood. Justin Indoine, Quist Natural Builders-Cob and Plasters, Marty Cain- Labyrinths and Geomancy. Kim Thompson, Straw-Bale Herbals, Straw-bale details and more. Frank Andresen, Clay and In fill systems. Paul Lacinski and Amy Klippenstein, Green Space Collaborative, Straw-bale details in cold and wet climates. Catherine Wanek and Peter Fust, Black Range Films, Straw-bale details and waste water systems. Ianto Evans*, Cob Cottage Co. Linda Smiley*, Cob Cottage Co. Steve Chappell, Fox Maple Timber Framing School. Dr. John Todd*, Living Machines. William Cahill*, Thatch. Craig Hanson, Hessel Valley Timber Framing. Robert LaPorte*, Natural House Building Center. Sun Ray Kelly, College of Nature Living. Eric Hart, Community Eco Design Network, Green house gray water processing. Straight Arrow Chrome, Appropriate Technology. Joe Jenkins, Humanure and Slate Roofs. Lyle Rawlings*, FIRST Inc., Photovoltaics. Jim Underwood*, Rammed Earth. Jean D'Aragon*, CRATerre - Rammed Earth. Cedar Rose*, Plasters and Healthy Home Design. Kiko Denzer*, Cob-Cob Ovens. Robert Bennett*, Sun Angles. Henry P. MacLean*, Timeless Architecture. And many more... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The Site: Dodon is a family owned working farm. Its 550 beautiful acres are shared by forest, rolling fields and organic gardens. The land is home to an octagonal mud plastered straw-bale building, an off the grid Real Goods Solar Home Tour timber frame log cabin, a tipi and tobacco barns. Fairhaven School is part of a growing movement of free and democratic schools in the US. The school's principles are based on Sudbury educational philosophies. As NBC-East participants we will have the unique opportunity to help plan, create and build the physical landscape of this important educational environment. Travel: Davidsonville is 20 minutes east of Washington, DC. Washington, DC is easily accessible by public transportation. We will coordinate transportation from rail, air and bus terminals. Schedule: June 7-Sunday evening will be a time for opening ceremonies and introductions. June 8-12, Morning and afternoon hands-on workshops, technical sessions, discussions, experimental opportunities, evening presentations (a time for colloquium participants to present their projects) June 13, Closing ceremonies. Lodging: A limited number of reserved dorm style men's and women's cabins with bunk beds, indoor bathrooms and showers will be available at the Paxtuxent River 4-H Center just minutes from Dodon Farm. Camping is also available, campers will have access to the cabin showers and bathroom facilities. Cost: Contact the NBC staff at the addresses below. Opportunities to help: Volunteers, sponsors and donations of materials and supplies are encouraged. For more information, to get on our mailing list or request an application contact: NBC-East - - c/o Green Logic Design - - P.O. Box 2249 - NYC, NY 10009 212.769.6387 - fax 732.431.0928 - email: ketsie@aol.com - www.planetwoodstock.com/nbc.htm www.treebranch.com/nbc/east NBC-East is a production of Green Logic Design and the East Coast Alternative Building Center ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 11:42:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11258 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:42:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00792; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:32:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:28:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00277 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:28:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00271 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:28:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id KAA0000010652; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:34:43 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980318163644.00691948@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:36:44 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: using green wood Cc: PWhite@eypae.com, ashcreek@dreamscape.com, speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2626 Regarding the book that lists most characteristics of different wood species (not load strength for building though) is: Green Woodwork by Drew Langsner, 1987, ISBN 087857-689-4 in paperback I believe the Forestry Service would have information about loading strength, at least that's where I will try next. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 12:16:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA11773 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:16:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02551; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:04:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:00:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01865 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:59:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01860 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 11:59:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA21015; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:04:24 -0800 Message-ID: <350FFDD7.55550C1C@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:01:11 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hvac@together.net CC: Alex Wilson , go2green@inreach.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Toilet retrofit kits References: <350FF445.F5DC7D07@together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2627 I worried about this on our first installation and wanted to go back and change the sizing but the early Eljer used was so poorly designed that according to the clients they routinely flushed twice (no problem?). Since then I've had the bath/shower drain placed upstream but still have had concerns with poor performance/price issues on the toilets themselves. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Tom Anderson wrote: > A comment on low flo water closets: > > Mechanical Contractors in my region Northern Vermont/ Upstate NY are > experiencing sanitary piping backup problems using 1.6 Gpm water closets. > > My understanding, according to informal conversations w/ project forpersons, is > the sizing of sanitary mains per plumbing codes results in solids not becoming > entrained by fluid flow in sanitary pipe due to low flush volumes. > > One outlet mall near the Quebec Canadian border in NY State has had major > clogging problems in sanitary for reasons stated . The contractor tells me all > installed per NY code, but the public toilets clog daily. > > Low flow wc's installed for private toilet use have far fewer problems, > apparently the reason being fewer clog able volumes of paper and whatever being > less than that found in more abused public toilets. > > One solution I hear is attempt to layout bathroom fixtures so that sinks drain > into toilet sanitary line upstream of toilet sanitary, thus the sink drainage > provides frequent water flow flushing of entrained solids. > > This issue remains a problem when designing plumbing systems according to > current plumbing codes. The codes are all based on old high volume WC design > flows. > > I mention it so that one may consider this performance problem when considering > installing low flo wc's. I wonder how our friends in Europe and elsewhere have > dealt with this problem. > > Best Regards..... > > Tom Anderson > > Alex Wilson wrote: > > > At 10:31 PM -0800 3/17/98, Kim Slininger wrote: > > >Does anyone know of a retrofit kit for 5 gal capacity American Standard > > >toilets? I'd like to know if we can get such a kit to modify a 5 gallon > > >flusher to the pressure tank type of flush that uses 1.5 gallons and hits > > >the material with house pressure rather than gravity. We took about 60 of > > >the old units out of the Yosemite Lodge area and I would like to use the > > >fixtures again rather than crushing them. Any ideas out there? > > > > > I would be concerned about inadequate performance. Most of the problems > > people are having with toilet flushing performance with the new 1.6 > > gallons-per-flush toilets are from toilets that were designed to flush with > > a larger water volumes and then simply retrofit for lower water use. (It is > > these toilets that are leading to calls for repeal of the low-flush > > regulations by a growing group of legislators.) You will get much higher > > satisfaction if you use a quality toilet whose bowl was totally redesigned > > for 1.6 gallons. The Kohler Wellworth toilet and some of Toto's models have > > been very satisfactory in studies I've seen--and we have very good success > > with the Wellworth. Toilets and windows are examples where the better > > environmental choice usually is _not_ to salvage, but simply crush and > > recycle the old products, then install state-of-the-art new products. > > > > Alex Wilson, Editor > > Environmental Building News > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 12:26:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA11939 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:26:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04170; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:17:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:12:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03434 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:12:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from AICS.NET (aics.net [209.21.198.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03423 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:12:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.21.198.33] ([209.21.198.33]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 7562500 ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:26:06 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:27:58 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, environs.com@juno.com From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #119 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2628 Beverly A. Weiter wrote: I know some time back there was someone doing composting units for a park system. Was it freestanding and if so, how complicated is the catch system for an area where excavation could be a problem? ................... We have been designing composting toilet systems and selling manufactured CTs since 1974 (our catalog features five brands and about 20+ models). Freestanding units were designed for areas with high groundwater and surface ledge and the issue of access to the reactor. Today, there are appliance composting units whereby the toilet seat sits on the reactor. Most have been for cottages, but increasingly, the manufacturers have developed greater processing capacity. Temperature is the variable. Within certain limits, the warmer the composter, the higher the capacity. David Del Porto Sustainable Strategies Ecological Engineering, Planning and Design 152 Commonwealth Avenue Concord, Massachusetts USA 01742-2968 Phone/Voice-mail: 978 369 9440 Fax/Telecopier: 978 369 2484 Web site: www.ecological-engineering.com E-mail: sustainable@aics.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 12:38:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA12124 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:38:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05047; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:28:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:24:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04657 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:24:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from AICS.NET (aics.net [209.21.198.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04648 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:24:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.21.198.33] ([209.21.198.33]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 7565100 ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:38:10 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:40:02 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, lizsha@pixie.co.za, go2green@inreach.com From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #119 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2629 Elisabeth Goyvaerts wrote: a note from down under South Africa along the same lines in South Afrrica there is a tremendous water shortage any ideas of an environmentally safe dry composting toilet? the majority of people use septic pits with overflow in soak-aways there must be something positive one could do with all the waste in high densities these toilets contribute to Salmonella contamination of ground water ............................. The issue is not only salmonella contamination of groundwater, but, rather, cholera and other human pathogens (much more significant). The only obvious answer is an closed zero-discharge system. Combining dry composting toilets with lined Washwater Gardens that use up all the nutrients and water for plant growth can assure environmental and public health protection. Here's a USAID stat: 2.8 million persons in developing countries die yearly from diarrheal diseases caused by poor sanitation, ineffective wastewater management, unsafe drinking water, and poor food hygiene. --------------------------------------------------------------- Kim Slininger wrote: Does anyone know of a retrofit kit for 5 gal capacity American Standard toilets? I'd like to know if we can get such a kit to modify a 5 gallon flusher to the pressure tank type of flush that uses 1.5 gallons and hits the material with house pressure rather than gravity. We took about 60 of the old units out of the Yosemite Lodge area and I would like to use the fixtures again rather than crushing them. ................................... The bowls of the old 5-gal. flush toilet are hydraulically engineered so that not less than 3.5 gals. of gravity-fed water at an elevated height of 2.5 ft. will flush them. However, the Sloan Valve Co. has acquired the technology that uses pressure vessels, which compress a small volume of air with in-line water pressure that hold 1.5 gals. of water. When the valve is released, 1.5 gals. of water under pressure is put into the bowl. The retrofit product was called Flushmate, but American Standard, as well as other major brands, now use this technology. (I think it's better to use the toilets as an artificial reef!) David Del Porto Sustainable Strategies Ecological Engineering, Planning and Design 152 Commonwealth Avenue Concord, Massachusetts USA 01742-2968 Phone/Voice-mail: 978 369 9440 Fax/Telecopier: 978 369 2484 Web site: www.ecological-engineering.com E-mail: sustainable@aics.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 13:34:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12924 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:34:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07776; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:25:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:20:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA07422 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:20:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07416 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:20:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from FMichelman@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4JTTa09328 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:26:41 -0500 (EST) From: FMichelman Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:26:41 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: composting toilets Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 62 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2630 I am currently investigating the possibility of purchasing and retrofitting an existing industrial building for use as a small apartment complex with up to 30 apartment units. The conversion is limited by the local sanitary codes which would allow no more than four to six small units using conventional septic systems. In this case, the building is destined to remain both an environmentally distressed site and an eyesore in the middle of an otherwise decent residential area. Does anyone on the List have experience with or knowledge of a successful project that has used composting sanitary systems in a similar application. I doubt very much that I could get approvals for their use without being able to show officials in the Health Department similar successful implementations, and even then I'm sure I will have quite a battle on my hands. Any help or pointers in the right direction from the wonderful members on this List would be greatly appreciated. Thank-you all. Fred Michelman Harbor Custom Building, Inc. PO Box 941 Bayport, New York 11705 tel: 516-472-4802 fax: 516-472-4803 email: FMichelman@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 13:39:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12979 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:39:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08342; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:30:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:26:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA07828 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:26:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.state.vt.us (mail.state.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07824 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:26:04 -0500 (EST) From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Received: from vdhvax ([159.105.135.2]) by mail.state.vt.us (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-44988U13000L13000S0) with SMTP id AAA179 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:40:27 -0500 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:32:33 -0500 Message-Id: <98031813323304@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: toilets and other foolishness X-VMS-To: SMTP%"greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2631 The recent toilet (low-flush) posts jogged my memory. In the U.S. Congress right now, this is a move afoot to repeal the provision of the 1992 Energy Policy Act which requires the use of low flush (<1.6gal) toilets in new construction. Apparently consumers need the choice to be able to flush away 5 gallons of fresh water (usually fresh water)... I'm still amazed at things like this, but its an example of where most of the debate is taking place. I can think of a few off-list debates over the past few months (and countless on-list discussions) about the best or right way to do this or that. Good conversations, with clear, justifiable, if also differing positions about how to improve things. And then I have to explain to a legislator that banning perfume in schools is NOT the panacea for IAQ problems in those schools. Or explain to a code official why building codes actually should (and do) address public health issues. Or listen to senators insist that 5 gal flushes are reasonable. It makes my head spin. And with my spinning head, I probably shouldn't get too far into this rant. Thanks for indulging me. Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 13:54:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA13125 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09310; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:42:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:38:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08927 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:38:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from udecc.engr.udayton.edu (udecc.engr.udayton.edu [131.238.32.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08923 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:38:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from meepc14 by udecc.engr.udayton.edu (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA15577; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:44:47 -0500 Message-Id: <9803181844.AA15577@udecc.engr.udayton.edu> X-Organization: University of Dayton, School of Engineering, Dayton OH Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Kevin Hallinan" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:40:49 +0000 Subject: GBlist: Re: High efficiency electric ovens Reply-To: khallina@engr.udayton.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.01) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2632 I am remodeling my kitchen and am looking for the most efficient oven. Does anyone have any suggestions? Kevin _________________________________________________________ The problem with the rat race is that if you win, you are still a rat. _________________________________________________________ Kevin Hallinan (937)229-2875 (W) (937)294-6406 (937)229-4922 e-mail: khallina@engr.udayton.edu ftp site: ftp.engr.udayton.edu/khallina URL: http://www.engr.udayton.edu/SOE/Depts/mechanic/facstaff/khallina ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 14:09:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13356 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:09:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10649; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:00:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:56:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA10237 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:56:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10225 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:56:22 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NwJ14028; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:58:48 EST To: builder@ivnet.net Cc: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu, ashcreek@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 08:58:40 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: SBWIN Message-ID: <19980318.131226.3966.1.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <1.5.4.32.19980316180201.006a488c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,8-9,16-17,19-59 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2633 If you have ever worked in a information technology environment (computer rooms, labs, etc) you will observe that the ambient temperature is kept around 70 degrees or less. This is done because electro-mechanical components and systems operate better and longer at cooler temperatures. In these environments the mini-computers and the mainframes are ordinarily left on but this is because these systems often operate twenty-four hours a day. They also require regularly scheduled maintanance, data backups and repair. One of the many common failures is crashing of a hard disk drive. When any computer is left on it is constantly spinning the hard disk drive. The hard drive is rated for only so many hours of operation by the manufacturer. Fortunately this rating increases with the quality of disk drives that are being produced today. The fact is that while the computer is on and the hard drive is running the number of potential life hours for that drive is being expended. If you are going to leave your computer on - backup your data frequently. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 19:36:36 -0800 Bruce writes: > > >David F. Lambertson wrote: Maybe this is a matter of damned if you do >and damned >it you don't, but it is my understanding that it's much better for >your computer >to leave it onall the time, that turning it off at the end of the day >or more >often is the quickest way to wear it out. Ref. both the manufacturer >and my >computer guru. But then I don't use AutoCad so degenerating commands >aren't a >problem. Sacie Lambertson >The way I heard it, heat is one of the main causes of chip failure. So >I guess >that turning them off and then on again quickly, before they have much >chance to >cool off, would not lengthen their lifespan that much. But turning it >off for >long enough too cool off would, and would also save energy. I've heard >that >computers are starting to be a significant power draw in the US. >Monitors could >be turned off easily if your system is hard to restart. > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 14:50:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA14065 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13096; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:41:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:36:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12637 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:35:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from radiks.net (root@sr.radiks.net [205.138.126.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12630 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:35:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from radiks.net (pc-7AB-086.omhq.uprr.com [167.132.89.86]) by radiks.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA29805; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:38:06 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <351022AF.86BB72A1@radiks.net> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:38:24 -0600 From: Tom Berthold X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sbtauto@juno.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: SBWIN References: <1.5.4.32.19980316180201.006a488c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> <19980318.131226.3966.1.sbtauto@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2634 Most computers these days come with a power management feature. You can interupt the system boot sequence to enter the system configuration area, and you can set the time interval of inactivity after which the system will "spin down" you hard drive. My computer is set to spin down my hard drive after 30 minutes of inactivity. -Tom Berthold Steve Shepard wrote: > When any computer is left on it is constantly spinning the hard disk > drive. > The hard drive is rated for only so many hours of operation by the > manufacturer. Fortunately this rating increases with the quality of disk > drives that are being produced today. The fact is that while the > computer is on and the hard drive is running the number of potential life > hours for that drive is being expended. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 15:14:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14541 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:14:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14401; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 15:02:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:58:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13926 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:58:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13920 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:58:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA92186; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:59:44 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:59:44 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Sustainable Strategies Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, lizsha@pixie.co.za, go2green@inreach.com Subject: GBlist: lined Washwater Gardens In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2635 Further to a recent message re: composting toilets for South Africa, what are the washwater gardens lined with? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 19:12:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA19228 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:12:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA27721; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:03:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:57:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27192 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:57:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27185 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:57:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa7-p24.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.152]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id TAA11779; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:03:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35105FBF.3730@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 18:58:55 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: Kevan & stephan Subject: GBlist: Amazon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2636 The NY TIMES today ran a very poingant story about the fires devastating so much of Amazonia and particularly the home of the Yanomami indians. http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/i/AP-Brazil-Amazon-Fires.html David Foley, what does your brother think is going on, here and elsewhere, with the power of this El Nino, is this clearly attributable to long term changes in the atmosphere or is it just the predictable periodic anomaly, if it is possible to be both an anomaly and predictable? More likely it is not clearly one thing or the other, but does he have any strong feelings either way? I have suggested to a friend, who is seeking some advice/input on designing game/program for an Environmental Interpretive center, that he should subscribe here. I will leave the full description of the project to him, but to give you the opportunity to begin thinking about the issues, let me give you a brief background. Stephan is a graphic designer with the Adirondack Park Agency and works primarily on exhibits for 2 center in the heart of Park. His present project involves developing a huge screen interactive game/learning module that will force the participant to make certain wetlands/ drainage basin decisions that will in turn force other decisions in an expanding ecosystem. He is not expecting to do this as a computer model, but rather as a large electronic circuit board. I suggested that this body of knowledge housed here might be of invaluable benefit to him. I particularly thought that David Foley's brother might be a great resource in this project. Please don't send me any suggestions yet, as I doubt if I have done Stephan's concept justice and hopefully, he will give you a more thorough prospectus in the near future. Save your brilliance for him. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 19:40:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA20426 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:40:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29192; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:26:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA28552 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:26:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28547 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:26:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from van-as-04b15.direct.ca (kadulski) [204.174.248.175] by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yFTGj-0003H4-00; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:33:14 -0800 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: north windows Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:31:40 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2637 > Rod Lambert asked: > I'm still wondering if the picture is complete. What would it be like to live > in a glass house at the 'break even point' presumably lower than the R-12 > suggested by Malcolm as one would only need to match the heat loss by an R-28 > wall. What would be the capital, maintenance, operating and environmental > costs of the resultant system? What would the lower r value walls feel like on > a long cold night with all that cool air convecting off the glass. What would > it feel like on a sunny day especially if there was insufficient thermal mass > (capital costs?) Costs of curtains or other thermal screens? I notice that > even at R6 the window loses 63% more heat than the R28 wall. > One thing we may be forgetting, after the number crunching analysis of thermal gains and losses, etc. is what does the interior environment look or feel like. Windows, in the end will affect the mean radiant temperature (MRT) in a room, and the MRT along with the air temperature is one of the most important aspects affecting thermal comfort. You can easily calculate the what the surface temperature on the glass will be; even in the case of the high performance glass with an R12 or so, the surface temperature will be lower than for a well insulated R20 plus wall. A simplified formula to calculate comfort conditions in a room is: air temperature plus MRT = 140. What this tells us if the MRT is lowered (due to large cool glass surfaces) then the air temperature must be increased to maintain equivalent comfort conditions. Otherwise, you will feel cold inside. (the view may be great, but that extra wool sweater or comforter will probably feel much better!) ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seymour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 19:54:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA20678 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:54:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00685; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:45:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:41:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA00177 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:41:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV (dcsmtp.wictok7.epa.gov [161.80.160.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00172 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:41:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:50:43 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:41:03 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT To: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, msheffer@cyberia.com Subject: GBlist: Is Air Conditioning Ever Green? -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2638 Carrier (Bryant, too) has a split system that uses 410a, an HFC (no ozone depletion potential) that is in the 13 SEER range. I do not know if they make a 5-ton version, but it is worth giving your Carrier distributor a call. You may want to investigate a GeoExchange system (geothermal heat pump). No concerns with hiding a tank or even an outdoor compressor, and it will be significantly more efficient than the 12 SEER system proposed so far. It can provide space heating and cooling and at least a portion of the hot water needs. Check out [www.geoexchange.org] for more info. On the reducing loads side, you said you could do nothing about people and equipment. People I'll agree with (although you could specify metabolism rates in your hiring criteria), but for office equipment, you should only purchase equipment with power management features to help reduce the internal gains when equipment is not in use. Look for the ENERGY STAR label on computers, monitors, faxes, printers, scanners, etc. Good luck. - Steve O. ----------from previous posts----------- Carrier came out with a packaged unit (e.g. rooftop type) that has Refrigerant 134a, as a "Green" air conditioner, a couple of years ago. Last I heard, they had not sold many (maybe any), but it may still be on the market. I might have literature on it somewhere, if you can't find anything from your local Carrier distributor. . . . . . We have stressed the need to first lower loads through energy efficient lighting (can't do much about people and equipment). . . ________________________ Contact Information: Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epamail.epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html _________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 20:09:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA22092 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:09:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA01558; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:00:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:56:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01197 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:56:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01191 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:56:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail2.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 19:19:56 +0000 Date: Wed, 18 Mar 98 19:16:49 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re(2): Re(2): GBlist: Roof Life Expectancy To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5109558.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2639 I believe terne is technically an alloy of lead and tin--I don't have ready access to the percentages now. This is a different roofing material than tin or galvanized steel, as best I know. One manufacturer of the terne is Follansbee in West Virginia, if you want to get additional info. G. Vittori -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 22:26:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA25369 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:26:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA05963; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:17:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:13:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA05525 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:13:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05521 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:13:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.13] (blf13.acadia.net [205.217.217.13]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA10025 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:19:58 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:20:38 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Toilet retrofit kits Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2640 The backup problems mentioned by Tom Anderson may be from inappropriate use of the toilets. Time was, with the old 5 gallon behemouths, that you could flush down tampons, disposable diapers, half a roll of toilet paper, an Italian Sandwhich or Jimmy Hoffa without many problems. There are many fine 1.6 gallon toilets on the market. They will flush turds and a reasonable amount of paper just fine. They are NOT trash cans, garbage disposers, or open sewers. I wonder how many representatives would call for the repeal of car engines if they failed because people were too idiotic to change the oil? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 22:26:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA25370 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:26:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA05965; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:17:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:13:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA05513 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:13:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05509 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:13:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.13] (blf13.acadia.net [205.217.217.13]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA10012 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:19:52 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:20:32 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Solarwall Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2641 Dear Friends, Solarwall sounds like an interesting product. If you rely upon it to preheat makeup air, what do you do when it is cold or dark outside, and you still need makeup air? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 23:21:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA26361 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:21:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08577; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:10:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:06:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08103 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:06:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08099 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:06:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA07358; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:11:51 -0800 Message-ID: <35109A68.96E6E47@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 20:09:13 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Toilet retrofit kits References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2642 David M. Foley wrote: > I wonder how many representatives would call for the repeal of car engines > if they failed because people were too idiotic to change the oil? > Would that be so bad. Idiocy is not only an impediment it can be a tool for change. Idiocy created the nuclear agenda and it seems the same quality is hastening its dismantlement. It was idiocy to equate the disposal of wastes with the effect of swirling gallons of water but the premise for this particular idiocy was not the general populace but the designers who created the equation. We are now the product of a generation who need unlimited amounts of water to feel clean perhaps if enough of our own dirt clogs the various systems some change may be prompted. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 18 23:38:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA26592 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:38:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09300; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:25:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA09036 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:25:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from misc.twics.com (misc.twics.com [192.135.222.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09030 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:25:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp.twics.com (ppp35-max01.twics.com [202.237.149.162]) by misc.twics.com (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA09592 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:31:39 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <002d01bd52f0$151d1ca0$a295edca@ppp.twics.com> From: "Kurt Vogel" To: Subject: Fw: GBlist: Solarwall Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:32:48 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2643 -----Original Message----- From: Kurt Vogel To: David M. Foley Date: 1998”N 3ŒŽ 19“ú Thursday 13:29 Subject: Re: GBlist: Solarwall >David- > >Like any solar technology, obviously the sun is needed, so on cloudy days >the effectiveness is reduced. Surprisingly, the Solarwall system has >benefits when running 24 hours, primarily because it recycles heat lost >through the wall back into the building. > >Standard heating equipment is still required in such cases , although the >amount of such equipment needed may be reduced in some buildings. It is >best to think of Solarwall as a supplement to standard heating equipment. >It can greatly reduce consumption of fossil fuels while improving indoor air >quality, and save a lot of money with rapid paybacks at the same time. > >On very cold days, both Solarwall and standard heating may be required. >Generally, on sunny days, Solarwall can provide air heated 15-30 degrees C >(that's around up to 50 degrees F) above ambient temperatures. The >difference depends on the position of the Solarwall in relation to the sun >and the volume of air passing through the Solarwall as determined by the >size of the wall, volume of air in the building, volume of fresh air >required, etc. This is heat that doesn't have to be provided with fossil >fuels. > >With detailed information about a building, Conserval (or its >licensees/dealers) can very accurately estimate the amount of fuel and money >which will be saved on average in any particular location, taking into >account local weather data, latitude, etc. > >-Kurt Vogel >-----Original Message----- >From: David M. Foley >To: greenbuilding@crest.org >Date: 1998”N 3ŒŽ 19“ú Thursday 12:22 >Subject: GBlist: Solarwall > > >>Dear Friends, >> >>Solarwall sounds like an interesting product. If you rely upon it to >>preheat makeup air, what do you do when it is cold or dark outside, and you >>still need makeup air? >> >>David Foley >>Holland and Foley Building Design >>232 Beech Hill Road >>Northport, Maine USA 04849 >>p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net >> >> >>______________________________________________________________________ >>This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >>Environmental Building News and Oikos >>For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >>______________________________________________________________________ >> > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 03:39:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA29608 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:39:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA15435; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:29:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:24:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA15178 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:23:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA15174 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:23:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA15791 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 03:29:59 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9803181844.AA15577@udecc.engr.udayton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 00:22:50 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: High efficiency electric ovens Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2644 98.03.19 0012est Watch for a home version of the Flashbake oven, which cooks with high intensity halogen light (think of those "chinese lanterns" now in vogue in construction--HOT). My restaurant has been using a demo commercial FB from the local power co's test kitchen for over a year. For certain foods it is like a "flaming microwave", in that it cooks quickly and with the sense of having been "flamekissed". The early version we have is somewhat overstuffed with geegaws & a bit small in cavity size, which limits it to cooking rather thin foods (pizza & certain seafoods do well). Newer versions are to be larger & more refined. Search the net for more info. The retail on ours is over 11 grand, but they have & will get much cheaper. It takes a 60A 208 1 phase circuit with a 1 inch cord (you ought to see the plug), but again, wait & see what the developers come up with. I will advise the list if I hear anything specific about the rumored home version. I still believe in microwaves as very energy efficient, but some on this list will knock their safety. I never stand too close to mine anyway. jh >I am remodeling my kitchen and am looking for the most efficient >oven. Does anyone have any suggestions? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 05:28:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA00491 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 05:28:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA17647; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 05:19:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 05:15:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA17397 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 05:15:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gw.fsr.net (mail-gw.fsr.net [207.141.26.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA17393 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 05:14:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from sparkle (ppp025.pullman.com [204.227.174.25]) by mail-gw.fsr.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA08909 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 02:27:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980319020522.007b5ec0@pullman.com> X-Sender: dwilson@pullman.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 02:05:22 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Dennis Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Toilet retrofit kits Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2645 I've had good success with retrofit toilet flappers when coupled with an annual tank cleaning and toilet tuneup. The tuneup is critical to minimize water useage and optimize flushing action. After cleaning the tank and valves, I renew the ballcock washers, replace the flapper with an adjustable flapper (two types are referenced below), raise the water level to within 10 cm of the overflow, adjust the flapper to provide just enough water to produce a siphon break (one or two gurgles), then rod out and resize (if necessary) the diverter orifice to fill the bowl to the weir level without overflow. Material cost about 10 USD. On my old Kohler Wellworth 3.5 GPF toilets, this procedure saved about 1 GPF (or more if the ballcock washers were abraded), virtually eliminated occasional double flushing, and reduced bowl cleaning frequency. Frugal Flush by Frugal Technologies is a retrofit toilet flapper with adjustable air-bleed holes. A diagram of this device is at: http://www.cadvision.com/Home_Pages/accounts/yeungk/fflush.htm Float-A-Flapper and Water Mizer from American Water and Energy Savers, Inc. are retrofit toilet flappers with adjustable floats. Details at: http://www.americanwater.com/awesflap.html These devices can also be used to increase the GPF rate on some 1.6 GPF toilets to reduce or eliminate double flushing (justification: 1 x 2.4 GPF is less than 2 x 1.6 GPF) About 10 years ago, several Swedish factory-crafted homes assembled in the USA contained a Swedish Water Saving System (WSS), also known as the One Gallon System, to flush toilets with as little as 2 liters of water. This WSS uses a flow-increasing accumulator/booster to eliminate blockage in horizontal waste pipes by batching and discharging at velocities exceeding applicable code-specified minimum flow rates. Detailed information on this technology is available on the WISA Sanitary Technology website at: http://www.wisa-sanitair.com/eng/index.html Another low flow approach slurried the waste to prevent blockage. The Fluidizer Toilet by Control Fluidics contains a blender device that liquefies solid waste and toilet paper for a 2 liter flush. This toilet was used in the Advanced Houses Green Home in Waterloo, Ontario and is described at: http://www.apsc.com/power/esh/LFTGBath.asp Dennis Wilson Pullman, WA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 08:30:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA02466 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:30:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21159; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:19:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:15:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20888 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:15:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20875 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:14:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4YFYa20650 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:21:00 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl Message-ID: <133e0c44.35111bbe@aol.com> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:21:00 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Toilet retrofit kits Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 82 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2646 >>On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:20:38 -0400 Dave Foley wrote: I wonder how many representatives would call for the repeal of car engines if they failed because people were too idiotic to change the oil?<< And I wonder if we had grown up with low flush toilets and they legislated 5 gal flush toilets would people be upset with the tanks that sweat in humid climates, increased splashing, and cold showers that occur when someone flush while you are in the shower, increased potential for overflowing toilets when plugged, etc. etc? I have heard the arguments before from plumbers about the potential problems in the drains from the decrease in water use from low flush toilets and as far as I know _none_ were proven to have the effects the hysteria predicted. I agree we need to change our habits with new technology. I just isn't ok to ignore IAQ in your own home anymore when it's air tight, but so what, is it that hard to get people to listen and be aware? Geez, we can learn computers and how to set the time on our VCR and microwave, were certainly are not talking rocket science. I hope we can influence the debate on legislation to make sure energy advances like these remain in place. Most of our sewage treatment plants can only handle so much effluent, rather than building new larger plants it seems like reducing the flow is a much easier and intelligent path. (and that goes for most private septic systems as well, they work better with reduce flow) Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc. Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 09:33:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04799 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:33:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23482; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:21:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:16:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22971 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:16:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22967 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:16:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.74] (usr0a16.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.80]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28627; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:22:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:22:54 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <9803181844.AA15577@udecc.engr.udayton.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" , Green building list From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: High efficiency electric ovens Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2647 At 12:22 AM -0500 3/19/98, Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA wrote: >Watch for a home version of the Flashbake oven, which cooks with high >intensity halogen light (think of those "chinese lanterns" now in vogue in >construction--HOT). My restaurant has been using a demo commercial FB from >the local power co's test kitchen for over a year. For certain foods it is >like a "flaming microwave", in that it cooks quickly and with the sense of >having been "flamekissed". The early version we have is somewhat >overstuffed with geegaws & a bit small in cavity size, which limits it to >cooking rather thin foods (pizza & certain seafoods do well). Newer >versions are to be larger & more refined. Search the net for more info. > >The retail on ours is over 11 grand, but they have & will get much cheaper. >It takes a 60A 208 1 phase circuit with a 1 inch cord (you ought to see the >plug), but again, wait & see what the developers come up with. > >I will advise the list if I hear anything specific about the rumored home >version. > I saw a prototype FlashBake oven for the consumer market at the Builder's Show in Dallas in January. I'm pretty sure it was made by Amana. They didn't have a date for introduction yet. I plan to follow this up at some point in EBN. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 10:18:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05594 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:18:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25703; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:03:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:59:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25171 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:58:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25165; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:58:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA116706; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:03:45 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:03:45 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: HandyM2 Cc: Strawbale Listserver , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Passive Solar Breadbox (Batch) Water Preheaters In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2648 Michael: Thanks for your response. I am planning to put 2 different ones (for demonstration and monitoring purposes) into a lower (near the floor) south window sill inside, so that the residual heat loss goes into the house rather than outdoors. I have a special selective surface to apply onto them. The challenge is what reusable containers to use that will also fit into my 10" window sill. I need something that is black or can be painted black and has a narrow diameter (ie.9-10") and can take normal water pressures (ie. 40-60 PSI). I have been thinking of using old propane bottles, or large diameter ABS pipes (ends welded closed). But I need better ideas than these. Any creative, innovative and useful ideas are appreciated. Jorg Ostrowski _____________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, HandyM2 wrote: > > In a message dated 98-03-19 08:52:27 EST, you write: > > << Michael: Thanks for your response. If you have made a breadbox solar > heater, > what did you use as the water container? Jorg > >> > A nonleaking old water heater sans insulation. Easy to plumb BTW. > > The box it's self was an old fridge with the door and mechanicals removed and > replaced with a storm door and reflectors. Later we modifyed it to have the > reflectors insulated and closable from the ground as to protect the breadbox > water from losing heat during the night. Could still get scalding water in > the early morning hours thusly. Also as a side note the closable > reflector/shutters protected the storm door glazing from more than one > hailstorm. > > A later job we ran an old Gas water heater tank (also nonleaking pressure > tested) into the same set up but arranged to run the wood stove chimminy thru > the tank. A gas heater is simply a pipe thru the center of the water tank, > thus a chimminy in ti's self. A no brainer we thought. Suggest however in > hindsight to advoid direct cresote to the water heater body. Instead on the > second try we used fire flue piping as a tank liner to transfer heat from the > smoke to the water tank. So far 7 years has passed with out incident. But we > clean it yearly along with the rest of the chimminy. > > REMEMBER to have working Pressure Release Valves!!! Solar heat can Boil water > and an exploding heater full of scalding water is not cool!! > > I am forwarding this to the SB folks FYI. Maybe others have suggestions for > this project. > > Enjoy today! > > Michael > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 10:34:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05810 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:34:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27056; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:25:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:20:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26583 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:20:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26578 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip168.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.168]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA31757; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:27:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980319153532.006f70c8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:35:32 -0500 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: GBlist: Re: PV cogen Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2649 At 07:20 AM 3/18/1998 -0700, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: >You said: "There also some interesting solar thermal by-products from using the >slate/sheating cavity as a pre-heat system for DHW or space heat." >_____________________________________________________________________________ >Frazer: Although I have known about the cogeneration possibilities from >Atlantis for some time, they only involve AIR and not DHW. PV up front, >hot air down on the bottom. I am not sure my US contact knows what he is >talking about. Do they have a water system now? Do you have a good contact. _____________________________________________________________________________ No direct DWH, one would have to use air to pre-heat water. I'm trying to figure out how to easily incorporate this into the 60' ridge of my existing trussed roof. There was a company making such plenum, resolving static pressure issues with software, but I've lost their name,tel #, etc. - I believe they were written up in an EDU of a while ago. Any body out there know about them ?? According to Atlantis, in the optimal SunSlate system, the thermal energy available is 3 X the electrical energy - I'm working with Steve Coonan at Atlantis Energy (530-346-9595 tel & 530-346-9795 fax) best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 10:48:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06156 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:48:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27793; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:39:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:35:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27457 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:35:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27453 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:35:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KzC10364; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:40:50 EST To: terrain@cow-net.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:37:05 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Toilet retrofit kits Message-ID: <19980319.104138.6622.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <350FF445.F5DC7D07@together.net> <350FFDD7.55550C1C@cow-net.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-4,6-8,14,16-17,20-21,23-27 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2650 Hi John and GB listers, Thanks you for the suggestions. I will pass them on to the appropriate parties. Re: problems with lo-flush toilets in commercial installations - I don't know if this is economically viable but here goes. Years ago I bought a 44 apartment motel which was built to last. Because it was on a spit of land between an inland waterway and the ocean it was on septic, but I am sure the system we had would work for sewer as well. On each side of the building there were intermediary tanks, each serving half the almost 3/4 acre building. Waste was diverted into these tanks whichpumped the waste upgrade to the main septic tank , but not before an internal chopper system had, in effect, mulched all the solids. We never had a backup anywhere but within the toilets themselves, and then ususally it was someone throwing something like seashells down the toilet. Since the system was already in place when we bought, I don't know if it would be economically feasible today. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 12:14:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08080 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:14:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02677; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:05:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:01:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02227 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:00:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02221 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:00:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA28737 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:06:21 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005AAA5; Thu, 19 Mar 98 10:56:00 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:05:02 -0600 Message-ID: <0005AAA5.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Duct-sealing technology from EPRI To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2651 I don't know how "new" this is to all of you, but I thought it might be of interest. You can read more about it on EPRI's web page, at http://www.epri.com then go into "Press Release Index" - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com NEW HOME HEATING AND COOLING DUCT LEAK SEALER READY FOR COMMERCIALIZATION BY EPRI Palo Alto, Calif. -- August 6, 1997 -- Research funded by the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI), the California Institute for Energy Efficiency, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), and the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE), helped develop and test aerosol duct sealing. This new technology, initiated and patented by scientist Mark Modera at Lawrence Berkeley National Lab, holds great promise to more cost-effectively minimize air leaks in residential heating and cooling ducts. "Based on successful lab and field tests, aerosol duct sealing technology is ready for commercialization," said John Kesselring, EPRI's Customer Systems manager of heating and cooling . "Aerosol sealing could save homeowners up to $300 annually on utility bills and increase comfort by distributing heating and cooling more uniformly throughout the home," he added. In field tests of the aerosol duct sealant, 23 selected homeowners allowed researchers to explore every corner of their homes to determine how well the new duct sealing technology performs. Each home was constructed differently and represents a mix of basement and attic duct installations. Logistical support for these tests was provided by PSI Energy (Indiana), PennElec/MetEd (Pennsylvania), Oklahoma Gas and Electric, and Western Massachusetts Electric Co., a subsidiary of Northeast Utilities. In the results, over 80% of the supply and 70% of the return duct leaks were sealed within two hours, compared to several hours using conventional methods. The aerosol duct sealer works by spraying fine adhesive particles into heating and cooling ducts. The particles are deposited at the holes in the duct system, sealing the leaks without sticking to the duct surfaces. Aerosol particles are kept suspended in the airflow by a fan, and as the air stream turns sharply through leaks, the particles are thrown through leak walls. The use of sticky solid particles allows the built-up seal to cover leaks as large as 1- inch across. The adhesive is an already commercially available, environmentally-friendly sealant. Aerosol sealing technology has been found safe by the Underwriters Laboratories Inc. (UL), and the Indoor Environment Program at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. Leaks in residential air ducts cost homeowners some $5 billion a year, and can cause loss of nearly 25% of the energy used to heat and cool homes. Time-consuming conventional leak repair, which requires testing the ductwork, patching with mastic and duct tape, then retesting to make sure the leaks are sealed, is only 60% effective, leaving room for improvement and making the aerosol duct sealer very attractive. "Commercial development of this aerosol duct sealer would offer utilities another way to help their customers to save money and increase comfort with electricity," said Clark Gellings, EPRI's Customer Systems vice president. EPRI, established in 1973 and headquartered in Palo Alto, California, manages science and technology R&D for the electricity industry. More than 700 utilities are members of the Institute, which has an annual budget of some $500 million. The aerosol duct sealer is ready for commercialization. For more information about aerosol duct sealant technology and opportunities for energy providers to participate in this business opportunity through a Tailored Collaboration market transformation project, contact John Kesselring, (415) 855-2902, jkesselr@epri.com. To order report TR-107981, contact the EPRI Distribution Center at (510) 934-4212, ic@epri.com. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 12:46:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08874 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:46:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04883; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:37:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:33:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04239 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:32:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04226; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:32:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet3.carleton.ca [134.117.136.23]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v2.02) with ESMTP id MAA23705; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:38:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id MAA07570; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:38:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:38:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803191738.MAA07570@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca Subject: GBlist: Re: Passive Solar Breadbox (Batch) Water Preheaters Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2652 on Thu Mar 19 1998 jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca ("Jorg D. Ostrowski") wrote: [snipped with a minimum of mangling] > The challenge is what reusable containers to use that will > also fit into my 10" window sill. I need something that is > black or can be painted black and has a narrow diameter > (ie.9-10") and can take normal water pressures (ie. 40-60 > PSI). Hello Jorg and Men-with-a-preference-for-Black; Just a quick thought without fully understanding the scenario or the problem (ie just enough to be dangerous)... Would a truck or bus radiator(s) be suitable ? Lots of surface area to maximise absorption, corrosion resistant, able to withstand high temperatures and pressures, fashionably slim, ready-made inlets/outlets/drains plus readily available/compatible parts for pressure relief valve (ie themostat), mechanical pumping (if necessary), temperature monitoring etc. You theen ? -- [donning Raybans again] Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 13:04:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA09066 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06223; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:55:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:51:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05787 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:50:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from november.diac.com (root@diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05780 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:50:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.64.42.163] (p163.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.163]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA19253 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:56:14 GMT Message-Id: <199803191756.RAA19253@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Agriboard and R-value Date: Thu, 19 Mar 98 10:58:17 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2653 >Robert Bolman wrote: > >> Has anyone heard about Agriboard Industries coming under scrutiny for the >> suprisingly high R-Value claims being made of their straw core panel >> products? > >I heard that subsequent to testing they gave up on the inflated numbers. >Bruce I happenned to see their booth at a show last week. I instantly got into an argument with the salesman about this very subject; we were about to engage in fisticuffs when I moved on. So no, although they themselves are aware of the difference, to the public they still are not differentiating between "tested" and "effective" (or whatver you call it) R values. Agriboard is intentionally being misleading. One reason people like Agriboard make these claims, is because R-value has taken on mythological proportions; because its a simple number easily understood by the public, it has become overly influential. Lots of fiberglass does not make a great house! (And might not even make a thermally efficient one). You've never experienced comfort until you've been in a good passive solar New Mexico adobe house, whose walls might test only at R-15. I personally believe there IS a very significant difference between the tested value of an insulation product and how a wall will perform in a whole house system under real world conditions. However, the "effective" R-value would depend so much on installation, local climate, and other huge variables, that I doubt it could be reliably calculated and put into promotional literature. Instead, R-value probably should remain just what it is, one piece of the equation, and then maybe a percentage improvement in annual whole house performance could be estimated for other insulation systems that don't allow air infiltration, moisture, don't compress, do contain thermal mass, fill every void, etc. Buzz Burrell Bolder Building Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 15:10:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA11495 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:10:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14294; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:58:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:54:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13667 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:54:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13646; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:54:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA99776; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:59:26 -0700 Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 12:59:26 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Robert W. Tom" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Passive Solar Breadbox (Batch) Water Preheaters In-Reply-To: <199803191738.MAA07570@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2654 You said: "Would a truck or bus radiator(s) be suitable?" _____________________________________________________________________________ Tom: Thank you for your response. It could work well as a solar collector, but in the true sense of a batch solar preheater, I would like to see more mass or capacity (ie. 10-12 gallons minimum). The dimensions seem promising. I will ask someone this afternoon to check out the water capacity of a bus or truck radiator. Jorg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 17:13:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14937 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:13:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23404; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:04:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:00:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22984 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:59:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22978 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:59:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.100.187]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA10052 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:04:53 +0000 Message-ID: <35118F24.FFB66A06@which.net> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:33:25 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Computer On/Off Issues X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.3.32.19980318083100.00693258@cyberia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2655 Hard to believe that anyone concerned about environmental issues could walk away from their office knowing their computer would be on all night. It doesn't take a second to press that button, it's more of a psychological thing, you just want it to be ready and waiting in the morning, although it could be waking up while you pour that first coffee. You don't leave the tv on all night or the radio or the lights, or the oven, or the car, so what's going on here? Malcolm Scott Marcus Sheffer wrote: > >With the proliferation of energy saver cpus & periphs, this is fast > >becoming a non issue, really. I rarely turn my Mac, monitor or > printer > >off, since they power down to almost nothing on their own when left > unused > >for a short time. > > > >Set the times for powerdown according to your usage patterns. > > The issue of on/off cycles affecting computers goes back to the early > models. Frequent on/off cycles used to shorten the life of the hard > drive. > This has not been true since about the mid-1980s. Hard drives built > in > the last ten years (does anyone have one in use that is older?) do not > > suffer this problem and turning it on/off a few times a day will not > affect > hard drive life. > > The power down requirement for Energy Star compliance is less than 30 > watts. At this level that equals about 175 kWh/year (16hr/day, 365 > days). > At $0.08/kWh this equals about $14/year. Might not be much to the > individual but multiply this times millions of computers and pretty > soon > you need a large power plant or more to meet this load. Costly to > society > to build and costly to the environment to operate. > > Saving large amounts of energy is quite often the result of many > little > actions and rarely the result of a single measure. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 18:21:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA16020 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA01154; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:12:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:08:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA00816 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:08:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00812 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:08:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (gl-ppp06.hevanet.com [204.119.60.26]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23715; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:14:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3511A674.24D8162B@hevanet.com> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:12:55 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: malcolm.scott@which.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Computer On/Off Issues References: <3.0.3.32.19980318083100.00693258@cyberia.com> <35118F24.FFB66A06@which.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2656 Hi, all-- On a Macintosh computer, there is a control panel called "Energy Saver" that allows you to set times for automatic startup and shutdown, so the computer cycle can match your work day. Energy Saver also allows you to set a time period of inactivity to trigger the sleep mode. Can't you do this on a PC? };^)> Best, Mike malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: > Hard to believe that anyone concerned about environmental issues could > walk away from their office knowing their computer would be on all > night. It doesn't take a second to press that button, it's more of a > psychological thing, you just want it to be ready and waiting in the > morning, although it could be waking up while you pour that first > coffee. You don't leave the tv on all night or the radio or the lights, > or the oven, or the car, so what's going on here? > Malcolm Scott > > Marcus Sheffer wrote: > > > >With the proliferation of energy saver cpus & periphs, this is fast > > >becoming a non issue, really. I rarely turn my Mac, monitor or > > printer > > >off, since they power down to almost nothing on their own when left > > unused > > >for a short time. > > > > > >Set the times for powerdown according to your usage patterns. > > > > The issue of on/off cycles affecting computers goes back to the early > > models. Frequent on/off cycles used to shorten the life of the hard > > drive. > > This has not been true since about the mid-1980s. Hard drives built > > in > > the last ten years (does anyone have one in use that is older?) do not > > > > suffer this problem and turning it on/off a few times a day will not > > affect > > hard drive life. > > > > The power down requirement for Energy Star compliance is less than 30 > > watts. At this level that equals about 175 kWh/year (16hr/day, 365 > > days). > > At $0.08/kWh this equals about $14/year. Might not be much to the > > individual but multiply this times millions of computers and pretty > > soon > > you need a large power plant or more to meet this load. Costly to > > society > > to build and costly to the environment to operate. > > > > Saving large amounts of energy is quite often the result of many > > little > > actions and rarely the result of a single measure. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 18:44:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA17520 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:44:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02361; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:36:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:31:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02057 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:31:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02051 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:31:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id RAA0000016262; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:38:18 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980319234001.006bd7ac@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 17:40:01 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: wood floor over concrete slab Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2657 In another discussion (on the just discovered FHB list,) there was a brief talk about the best way to build a wood floor over a slab. Said there that furring over slab with wood on top would be very hard, that one should first lay 1 1/2" of foam board, 3/4 plywood and then the flooring. Another suggestion was to lay some sort of membrane down. Comments? Obviously this method would obviate the heat sinking qualities of the concrete slab, but my situation can not use a heat sink. Will there be a noticeable difference in floor resiliency with this method? Any opinions on this? With regard to insulating the slab, if several inches of high density foam board is placed on the outside, down to the frost level, to what extent should foam board be placed under the slab, on the inside? Alternatively would it be better to place more on the outside? (I know a couple of inches isn't much, but this is a SIP cabin used only on the weekends in the cold season and heated with a wood stove when it is). Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 19:37:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA18290 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:37:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA07154; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:26:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:21:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA06792 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:21:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from tumalo.bendnet.com (tumalo.bendnet.com [199.2.205.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06786 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:21:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.163.37.160] (b150.bendnet.com [206.163.37.160]) by tumalo.bendnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.6/bendnet-MX) with SMTP id QAA12974 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:28:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:25:23 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: airtime@bendnet.com (Marti Croal) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: R-value & energy equation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2658 Buzz Burrell wrote: >I personally believe there IS a very significant difference between the >tested value of an insulation product and how a wall will perform in a >whole house system under real world conditions....Instead, R-value >probably should remain just >what it is, one piece of the equation, and then maybe a percentage >improvement in annual whole house performance could be estimated for >other insulation systems that don't allow air infiltration, moisture, >don't compress, do contain thermal mass, fill every void, etc. As an Icynene Insulation System installer this is an issue that provides daily frustration. The State of Oregon Energy Codes do not recognize that air sealing or product permeability in any way contribute to the energy efficiency of a building. We know that Icynene's "effective" R value is far greater than fiberglass, which is 37 times more air permeable, holds moisture, slumps and is subject to installation irregularities. However, we are required to cavity fill 5.5 inch stud bays when, in fact, any areas toward the inside which were not completely filled would only contain "conditioned" air, not cold/hot air on the move within the wall. Perfect laboratory conditions may level the playing field for analysis, but if the outcome and ultimate rating system are inaccurate, they create misconceptions of performance under real world conditions. I like the "equation" analogy. Any idea of how we can go about convincing code creators that they're missing some essential numbers when putting their equations together? Marti Croal airTIGHT Insulation of oregon Bend, Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 20:41:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA20061 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:41:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA16381; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:32:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:28:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15896 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:28:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15884 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:28:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa0.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.129]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id UAA04694 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:34:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3511C68E.2F88@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:29:50 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Agriboard and R-value Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2659 Lots > of fiberglass does not make a great house! (And might not even make a > thermally efficient one). Snipped > I personally believe there IS a very significant difference between the > tested value of an insulation product and how a wall will perform in a > whole house system under real world conditions. However, the "effective" > R-value would depend so much on installation, local climate, and other > huge variables, that I doubt it could be reliably calculated and put into > promotional literature. Instead, R-value probably should remain just > what it is, one piece of the equation, and then maybe a percentage > improvement in annual whole house performance could be estimated for > other insulation systems that don't allow air infiltration, moisture, > don't compress, do contain thermal mass, fill every void, etc. > To illustrate your point. I discussed this exact issue with a thermographer several years ago, I posed the question, "What do you see through the 'camera' when you shoot various insulation jobs on similar houses?". His response was very to the point, when he shot houses on still days, the difference between the cellulose house and the fiberglass house was not hugely different, although he did get better readings from the cellulose. More important was the quality of the installation, if they were done with care they performed more or less as expected, if not, they could be abysmal. The worst jobs were always the fiberglass jobs installed by the sheetrockers by the foot. But most striking of all was the fiberglass house on a windy day, he said it was as if there was nothing in the walls at all. Now in all fairness, this was before Tyvek was in common use. As you would expect, urethane jobs performed much better than either of the other options. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville,NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 21:15:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA20424 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:15:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17811; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:06:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:02:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17534 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:01:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17530 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:01:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip23.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.42]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA133 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:08:30 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980319211943.006b5198@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:19:43 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: R-value & energy equation In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2660 Reminds me of an interesting story that Dave Grimsrud used to tell about the early days at LBL. They had installed a heat transducer on the interior face of a wall in an energy efficient house (back when such concepts were new), and early data indicated that the R-value of the super-insulated wall section wasn't much better than wood. It took a while to discover that the transducer had been planted right on top of a stud... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 19 23:07:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA21747 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 23:06:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA22576; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:58:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:53:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA21797 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:52:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21783 for ; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 22:52:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust87.tnt5.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.15.87]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA07035; Thu, 19 Mar 1998 19:59:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3511EA20.22B2@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 20:01:36 -0800 From: David Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: wood floor over concrete slab References: <1.5.4.32.19980319234001.006bd7ac@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2661 David F. Lambertson wrote: > > In another discussion (on the just discovered FHB list,) there was a brief > talk about the best way to build a wood floor over a slab. Said there that > furring over slab with wood on top would be very hard, that one should first > lay 1 1/2" of foam board, 3/4 plywood and then the flooring. Another > suggestion was to lay some sort of membrane down. Comments? >From here in mild California I can't comment much on the frost level stuff, but we too have this question about hardwood over concrete. My flooring contractor recomends this: cut 3/4" plywood into 12" squares and lay them like tiles with mastic onto the floor. Come back a lay full sheets of 3/4" plywood, secured with screws to the ply tiles, and then proceed with the hardwood. He's really the finicky sort, and I trust his opinion regarding moisture penetration, stability, etc. Now if you wanted a layer of insulation, I don't see why not insert a layer of foam in between the layers of ply; what is critical is the ability to securely fasten the top layer of ply down. I would not try to glue the insulation board down, and then somehow try to get the pluywood to lay flat on top of it. Seth Melchert Master Builders ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 20 07:55:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA27568 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:55:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA05474; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:46:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:40:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA05196 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:40:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.38]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA05192 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:40:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4VHIa11675 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:46:30 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: <759a5ea9.35126528@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:46:30 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Friday joke Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2662 The following was sent to me and I couldn't resist sharing it..it came from a completely unrelated source to our subject but...hey, it's friday..Phil If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would have destroyed civilization. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 20 09:17:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA29293 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:17:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07689; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:07:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:01:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07336 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:01:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07331 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:01:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id IAA0000024028; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:07:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980320140928.006b332c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 08:09:28 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: computer on/off issue Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2663 >Hard to believe that anyone concerned about environmental issues could >walk away from their office knowing their computer would be on all >night. It doesn't take a second to press that button, it's more of a >psychological thing, you just want it to be ready and waiting in the >morning, although it could be waking up while you pour that first >coffee. You don't leave the tv on all night or the radio or the lights, >or the oven, or the car, so what's going on here? >Malcolm Scott Although this problem appeared by mistake on this list, it obviously is one that affects each of us. And we are receiving conflicting advice. For myself, with a powerdown thingy in my machine I would prefer to leave it on all the time, as I've been advised, rather than risk causing premature failure of my hard disk. However, I believe my powerdown affects the big energy consumer, the monitor only. Some say that leaving any part of the computer on is worse, so which is it? I would really like an authoritative answer to this. Mine isn't a Mac either. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 20 10:04:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00041 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:04:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10173; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:55:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:50:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09801 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:49:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09795 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:49:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA12240; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 06:55:14 -0800 Message-ID: <351282B0.FD22649E@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 06:52:32 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: wood floor over concrete slab References: <1.5.4.32.19980319234001.006bd7ac@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2664 There is a lot of redundancy in a wood floor over a slab and potential problems. A slab is not required to create a break from the ground, what is required is a moisture and depending on location a thermal break. There are a lot less energy intensive ways of accomplishing this break. As for creating a rigid base. If the slab was to be poured on a compacted base then the compacted base in itself can be sufficient for laying sleepers for attaching a floor. The detail I would use would probably be a higher density eps foam (taped seams) with sufficient thickness to qualify as a moisture barrier (over a well layed capillary break) I think the foam would work well with the wood as it still has a capacity to contain a certain amount of moisture and release it. Sleepers at 12" on centre would provide sufficient span for locked 1x t&g material. For redundancy I would probably use a foam adhesive attaching the sleepers to the eps and also ensure sufficient expansion area for the floor. But this is only said if one has to insist on a wood floor. The same (compacted base) detail could be used well in a cabin with sandbedded clay brick or similar object. These details may seem odd but perhaps no odder than building a floor on top of a floor. If the slab is a suspended structural and insulated slab then I would encourage treating the slab as a finished floor and if worried about temp. and resilience would invest in a few well made area or spot floor coverings; sisal, hemp, wool. The actual area of a floor that is actively used is very small. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. David F. Lambertson wrote: > In another discussion (on the just discovered FHB list,) there was a brief > talk about the best way to build a wood floor over a slab. Said there that > furring over slab with wood on top would be very hard, that one should first > lay 1 1/2" of foam board, 3/4 plywood and then the flooring. Another > suggestion was to lay some sort of membrane down. Comments? Obviously this > method would obviate the heat sinking qualities of the concrete slab, but my > situation can not use a heat sink. Will there be a noticeable difference in > floor resiliency with this method? Any opinions on this? > > With regard to insulating the slab, if several inches of high density foam > board is placed on the outside, down to the frost level, to what extent > should foam board be placed under the slab, on the inside? Alternatively > would it be better to place more on the outside? (I know a couple of inches > isn't much, but this is a SIP cabin used only on the weekends in the cold > season and heated with a wood stove when it is). > Sacie Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 20 10:13:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01088 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:13:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11082; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:04:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:00:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10391 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:59:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10385; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:59:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA36102; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:52:11 -0700 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:52:11 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Tom Cc: HandyM2 , "Robert W. Tom" , Strawbale Listserver , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Re: Passive Solar Breadbox (Batch) Water Preheaters In-Reply-To: <35117C68.5E0DED33@flash.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2665 To Tom with-4-huge-Wabco-dumptrucks-on-his-roof: Are you sure you can trust steam cleaning these radiators from radiator fluid and put potable water through them? Although I think that the general idea "holds water", the thought of depending on someone else's cleaning for potable water frightens me! I would rather stay with something reused from the plumbing field. I will let you drive those buses and dumptrucks until you or someone else can steer me in another direction. Is my concern well grounded? Perhaps 1 or 2 old cast iron radiators may do the trick, if available and cost-effective. They may fill the bill (and space). They also have mass. _____________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Tom wrote: > > They were not just from trucks or busses, These radiators came of of dieses > engines on huge dumptrucks called Wabco's. (The tires alone were 7 ft tall) There > were 4 on our roof. I am not sure of the capacity but I could find out. > Tom > > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > You said: "Would a truck or bus radiator(s) be suitable?" > > _____________________________________________________________________________ > > Tom: Thank you for your response. It could work well as a solar collector, > > but in the true sense of a batch solar preheater, I would like to see more > > mass or capacity (ie. 10-12 gallons minimum). The dimensions > > seem promising. I will ask someone this afternoon to check out the water > > capacity of a bus or truck radiator. Jorg > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 20 10:55:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01803 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:55:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14370; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:46:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:42:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14043 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14038 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:41:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from Ibe404@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4ATLa20454 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:47:57 -0500 (EST) From: Ibe404 Message-ID: <678abd6f.35128faf@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:47:57 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: lighting specialists Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2666 ERpm is in search of lighting and energy consultants. Emphasis on IAQ and energy conservation experience is critical. We would appreciate your response or suggestions of individuals to contact. Please e-mail me at: ibe404@aol.com Irene Bledel ERpm 1401 Peachtree Street, N.E Suite 500 Atlanta, Georgia 30309 Tel: 404-885-6661 Fax: 404-351-5582 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 20 12:41:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03496 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:41:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20920; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:31:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:27:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20431 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20415; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:27:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA28429; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:33:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md4-11.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.75) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma028387; Fri Mar 20 11:32:47 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980320123059.0071bd50@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:31:46 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Finnish Green Building Report ( !! ) Cc: Jspears501@aol.com, info@usgbc.org, scanning@astm.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2667 Finnish Green Building Report I was just notified by my colleague Pekka Pakkala, of the Finnish Embassy in Washington, DC of an __> amazing <___ newly released document now on line at: (then, get a cup of your favorite beverage, or read your e-mail if you have a typical modem) It's 200K but well worth the time to download. Advise saving it or printing to a PDF for future reference. Right up front is a very good definition of sustainability in the context of the document and what their programs are trying to accomplish. Good table of contents helps navigate document, which I have just begun to explore. Respond to: or to listed authors on doc. | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 20 16:08:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA06907 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01208; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:59:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:54:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00775 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:53:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00769 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:53:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from CSMN5899.ntfac.ti.com (mck-ppp1-28.topher.net [208.199.183.234]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22249 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:50:15 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199803202050.OAA22249@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: "greenbuilder" Subject: GBlist: Low Flow Toilet Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:00:02 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2668 >snip> >regulations by a growing group of legislators.) You will get much higher > satisfaction if you use a quality toilet whose bowl was totally redesigned > for 1.6 gallons. The Kohler Wellworth toilet and some of Toto's models have > been very satisfactory in studies I've seen--and we have very good success > with the Wellworth. I studied toilet data much more than I care to admit. We selected the TotoCST703 and they have worked very well for the past 18 months. I can't find the article, but we had read about a study of low flow toilets that was done in California. The study tracked homeowner satisfaction with a number of different brands and models installed in a large number of homes. The Toto and the Kohler Wellworth were two of the better performing models. One very nice side benefit of the 1.6 gallon is how fast they refill. Our old 5 gallon models would drone on forever as the water came back into the tank. The Toto is silent in less than 20 seconds. Paul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 20 16:28:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA07232 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02550; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:19:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:15:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02247 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:15:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02243 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:15:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.66] (uc1.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.66]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA16266 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:22:10 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199803191738.MAA07570@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 16:24:41 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Passive Solar Breadbox (Batch) Water Preheaters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2669 >You said: "Would a truck or bus radiator(s) be suitable?" >_____________________________________________________________________________ >Tom: Thank you for your response. It could work well as a solar collector, >but in the true sense of a batch solar preheater, I would like to see more >mass or capacity (ie. 10-12 gallons minimum). The dimensions >seem promising. I will ask someone this afternoon to check out the water >capacity of a bus or truck radiator. Jorg Don't know about new ones, but auto radiators used to have a lot of lead in solder and brass. Bad for drinking water. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 20 17:30:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA09011 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:30:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05287; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:21:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:17:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04913 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:17:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04908 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:16:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip14.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.33]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA64; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:23:25 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980320173443.006e7a88@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:34:43 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Finnish Green Building Report ( !! ) Cc: Jspears501@aol.com, info@usgbc.org, scanning@astm.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980320123059.0071bd50@popd.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2670 Bion: The Finnish report looks *wonderful* any chance of getting them to produce it as a downloadable PDF document? ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 20 17:39:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA09141 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:39:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06119; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:30:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:25:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05542 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:25:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05538 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:25:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip24.ivnet.net [206.101.73.184]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA28608; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 06:31:19 -0800 Message-ID: <3510C0B5.B37C2BA3@ivnet.net> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 22:52:38 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank/Lin/Cody CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Sign on + metal roof ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2671 For the long span (24') that you have, thermal expansion and contraction will probably loosen the screws with the little neoprene washers. A light color will mitigate this a little, by lowering the maximum surface temperature, but I really prefer the concealed fastener (or "zip-lock") style roofing. I've installed metal roofs on 1:12 pitches for commercial buildings with no problems. My favorite metal roof type is 24ga with a Kynar finish and slots on the concealed flange. The screws go into the slots so the metal can expand and contract without tearing them loose. So if you are installing this on a hot day, think about whicch way it will contract. My supplier has a portable machine that forms the pans on the jobsite from coil stock, like seamless gutters. you'll need a hand moving a 24' piece, but if you have no penetrations it goes down easy. Bruce A Better Builder Frank/Lin/Cody wrote: > Greetings from Arizona, > Does anyone have any metal roofing solutions for a 24'x48' single slope > (low! 1:12) shed type roof for a garage/studio in a hot dry climate. To > further complicate matters I'd like to do it over 1x4 purlins 12"-16" on > center with a dead air space, then a radiant barrier , then rafters. > Roofing contractors around here look at me as if I'm crazy. Am I ? (as far > as roofs go). Oh, I also need this roof to be user friendly to install for > the owner/builder (me). > > Flame on... > Thanks in advance, > Frank > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 20 17:39:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA09146 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:39:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06171; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:30:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:26:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05559 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:25:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05555 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:25:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip24.ivnet.net [206.101.73.184]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA28615; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 06:31:25 -0800 Message-ID: <3510C561.99D7F97D@ivnet.net> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:12:33 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: malcolm.scott@which.net CC: GreenBuild Subject: Re: GBlist: Energy Storage? References: <35089434.44B181C3@empire.net> <350ADE20.4F80AD5C@which.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2672 For times when grid power is down you could probably power most heating systems with an inexpensive inverter hooked up to a car battery, and not get into cogeneration unless you need to the rest of the time. Bruce malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: > I have info on a cogeneration system called Totem from Fiat, based on a > Fiat car engine, which can run with or without a grid connection. My > info. is a few years old, but I came across the name on a web site > recently so it may still be valid. > Malcolm Scott > > Aus wrote: > > > It is my understanding that cogeneration systems of this type are NOT > > stand-alone, i.e. they are grid-connected and will not run IF the > > utility goes down. Does anyone know differently? On the same note, I > > am > > familiar with the Intelligen Energy Systems residential/light > > commercial > > cogeneration appliances. What else is "ou there"? > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 20 17:58:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA09451 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:58:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07034; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:48:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:45:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA06756 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:44:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06752 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:44:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.35] (blf35.acadia.net [205.217.217.35]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA24671 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:51:38 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:52:17 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: wood floor over concrete slab Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2673 If, after considering the points in John Salmen's post, you still want wood flooring on top of a slab, consider the Junkers flooring system. It relies on clips inserted in the underside of the wood flooring to "float" the wood floor on the slab. (Think of it as a hardwood rug.) It works well with in-floor radiant heat, too. Not cheap, but competitive with some of the other solutions being offered. I think that EBN has reviewed this product. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 20 18:07:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA09644 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:07:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07600; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:58:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:54:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA07276 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:54:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA07270 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:54:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip24.ivnet.net [206.101.73.184]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA28827; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 07:00:10 -0800 Message-ID: <3512F445.9A5F02ED@ivnet.net> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:57:09 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: computer on/off issue References: <1.5.4.32.19980320140928.006b332c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2674 David F. Lambertson wrote: > >Hard to believe that anyone concerned about environmental issues could > >walk away from their office knowing their computer would be on all > >night. It doesn't take a second to press that button, it's more of a > >psychological thing, you just want it to be ready and waiting in the > >morning, although it could be waking up while you pour that first > >coffee. You don't leave the tv on all night or the radio or the lights, > >or the oven, or the car, so what's going on here? > >Malcolm Scott > > Although this problem appeared by mistake on this list, it obviously is one > that affects each of us. And we are receiving conflicting advice. For > myself, with a powerdown thingy in my machine I would prefer to leave it on > all the time, as I've been advised, rather than risk causing premature > failure of my hard disk. However, I believe my powerdown affects the big > energy consumer, the monitor only. Some say that leaving any part of the > computer on is worse, so which is it? I would really like an authoritative > answer to this. Mine isn't a Mac either. Sacie Lambertson Wouldn't the relevant factor be the power supply? I think most power supplies are about 200 watts in these machines. This is basically a transformer which inputs at 115volts and outputs at 3 and/or 5 volts. So I think that would be a pretty good indication of the power draw. Monitors and printers are extra. Bruce ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 20 18:42:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA10201 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:42:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09194; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:33:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:29:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08781 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:29:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08773 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:29:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA06601; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:34:56 -0800 Message-ID: <3512FC87.24077D1D@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:32:23 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Brennan CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Passive Solar Breadbox (Batch) Water Preheaters References: <199803191738.MAA07570@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2675 Terry Brennan wrote: > > > Don't know about new ones, but auto radiators used to have a lot of lead in > solder and brass. Bad for drinking water. - Terry > > ______________________________________________________________________ The irony of this is that in removing lead from solder for plumbing purposes they forgot to legislate removal from brass castings for valves, taps, etc. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 20 18:54:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA10417 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:54:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09736; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:45:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:41:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA09440 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:41:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09436 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:41:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (1Cust124.tnt5.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.117.124]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA03907; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:47:37 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803202347.PAA03907@germany.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: wliebold@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:45:16 -0500 To: "Paul Westbrook" , "greenbuilder" From: Warren Liebold Subject: Re: GBlist: Low Flow Toilet In-Reply-To: <199803202050.OAA22249@mail.topher.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2676 I have posted the summaries of all of the LC toilet customer surveys at: http://home.earthlink.net/~wliebold/ At 03:00 PM 3/20/98 -0600, Paul Westbrook wrote: >>snip> >>regulations by a growing group of legislators.) You will get much higher >> satisfaction if you use a quality toilet whose bowl was totally >redesigned >> for 1.6 gallons. The Kohler Wellworth toilet and some of Toto's models >have >> been very satisfactory in studies I've seen--and we have very good >success >> with the Wellworth. > >I studied toilet data much more than I care to admit. We selected the >TotoCST703 and they have worked very well for the past 18 months. I >can't find the article, but we had read about a study of low flow toilets >that was done in California. The study tracked homeowner satisfaction >with a number of different brands and models installed in a large number of >homes. The Toto and the Kohler Wellworth were two of the better >performing models. > >One very nice side benefit of the 1.6 gallon is how fast they refill. Our >old 5 gallon models would drone on forever as the water came back into the >tank. The Toto is silent in less than 20 seconds. > >Paul > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > Warren Liebold wliebold@earthlink.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 20 19:02:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA10757 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 19:02:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10195; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:53:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:49:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA09867 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:49:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09861 for ; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:49:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (1Cust124.tnt5.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.117.124]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA10288; Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:56:06 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803202356.PAA10288@germany.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: wliebold@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 18:53:45 -0500 To: hvac@together.net, Alex Wilson From: Warren Liebold Subject: Re: GBlist: Toilet clogs Cc: go2green@inreach.com, greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <350FF445.F5DC7D07@together.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2677 My understanding is that there have been discussions about updating the drain line sizing issues for a few years now. That's certainly a key issue. For many years, toilets in particularly high-abuse (and low maintenance) locations have sometimes been the "blow out" type which have enlarged trapways. These are still legal as 3.5 gpf models. >From what you're describing, it's hard not to think there isn't some sort of systemic problem. We've had a 1.6 code for six years now, both residential and commercial. The complaints often come to me and I've found the problems pretty intermittent unless the installation is sloppy, there's really heavy abuse or a pre-existing system problem. Having said all that, there are certainly differences in product quality. Wendy Corpening did a study of C/I toilet installations in CA. I don't have the citation handy, but I'm sure you can find it in the biliography/reference search section of WaterWiser. http://www.waterwiser.org/ At 11:20 AM 3/18/98 -0500, Tom Anderson wrote: >A comment on low flo water closets: > >Mechanical Contractors in my region Northern Vermont/ Upstate NY are >experiencing sanitary piping backup problems using 1.6 Gpm water closets. > >My understanding, according to informal conversations w/ project forpersons, is >the sizing of sanitary mains per plumbing codes results in solids not becoming >entrained by fluid flow in sanitary pipe due to low flush volumes. > >One outlet mall near the Quebec Canadian border in NY State has had major >clogging problems in sanitary for reasons stated . The contractor tells me all >installed per NY code, but the public toilets clog daily. > >Low flow wc's installed for private toilet use have far fewer problems, >apparently the reason being fewer clog able volumes of paper and whatever being >less than that found in more abused public toilets. > >One solution I hear is attempt to layout bathroom fixtures so that sinks drain >into toilet sanitary line upstream of toilet sanitary, thus the sink drainage >provides frequent water flow flushing of entrained solids. > >This issue remains a problem when designing plumbing systems according to >current plumbing codes. The codes are all based on old high volume WC design >flows. > >I mention it so that one may consider this performance problem when considering >installing low flo wc's. I wonder how our friends in Europe and elsewhere have >dealt with this problem. > >Best Regards..... > >Tom Anderson > > > >Alex Wilson wrote: > >> At 10:31 PM -0800 3/17/98, Kim Slininger wrote: >> >Does anyone know of a retrofit kit for 5 gal capacity American Standard >> >toilets? I'd like to know if we can get such a kit to modify a 5 gallon >> >flusher to the pressure tank type of flush that uses 1.5 gallons and hits >> >the material with house pressure rather than gravity. We took about 60 of >> >the old units out of the Yosemite Lodge area and I would like to use the >> >fixtures again rather than crushing them. Any ideas out there? >> > >> I would be concerned about inadequate performance. Most of the problems >> people are having with toilet flushing performance with the new 1.6 >> gallons-per-flush toilets are from toilets that were designed to flush with >> a larger water volumes and then simply retrofit for lower water use. (It is >> these toilets that are leading to calls for repeal of the low-flush >> regulations by a growing group of legislators.) You will get much higher >> satisfaction if you use a quality toilet whose bowl was totally redesigned >> for 1.6 gallons. The Kohler Wellworth toilet and some of Toto's models have >> been very satisfactory in studies I've seen--and we have very good success >> with the Wellworth. Toilets and windows are examples where the better >> environmental choice usually is _not_ to salvage, but simply crush and >> recycle the old products, then install state-of-the-art new products. >> >> Alex Wilson, Editor >> Environmental Building News >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >> Environmental Building News and Oikos >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >> ______________________________________________________________________ > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > Warren Liebold wliebold@earthlink.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 21 05:14:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA24606 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 05:14:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA01302; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 05:05:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Mar 1998 04:59:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA01002 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 04:59:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA00996 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 04:59:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip21.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.40]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA164 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 05:05:54 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980321051711.006ab22c@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 05:17:11 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: GBlist: Strange Outcomes for Energy Efficiency In-Reply-To: <678abd6f.35128faf@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2678 The Learning Channel ran a show last night on "new" fire fighting techniques related to flashover conditions. I had seen it before, but only noticed this time their statements regarding energy efficiency. The flashover scenario is set up from oxygen-starved conditions in a sealed room, leaving a superheated layer of combustable smoke at the ceiling. The superheated layer grows downward while providing a radiant heat source. Everything in the room has a chance to reach ignition temperature, but can't burn for lack of oxygen. Open a door or break a window, and explosive development takes over. They made a case for the tighter construction (and stronger windows) that prevail with energy efficient buildings setting the stage for these conditions to be more prevelant. To the point that a building is often ready for flashover by the time the firefighters arrive on the scene. Apparently, oxygen-fed combustion in a leakier scenario would be less of a hazard. Now I'm not an expert (could have been: my Daddy was Fire Chief all throughout my childhood... the noise and the fast driving were appealing, but there was enough order-following at home to suit me). What design options and aftermarket systems exist to address this? ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 21 09:44:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA26576 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 09:44:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07860; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 09:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Mar 1998 09:30:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07577 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 09:30:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07573 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 09:30:01 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 8645 invoked by uid 0); 21 Mar 1998 14:37:30 -0000 Received: from ppp-8.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.201?) (198.175.11.201) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 21 Mar 1998 14:37:30 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 09:30:36 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: computer on/off issue Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2679 Malcolm and Sacie have discussed saving energy with computers: -------------------------- >Hard to believe that anyone concerned about environmental issues could >walk away from their office knowing their computer would be on all >night. It doesn't take a second to press that button, it's more of a >psychological thing, you just want it to be ready and waiting in the >morning, although it could be waking up while you pour that first >coffee. You don't leave the tv on all night or the radio or the lights, >or the oven, or the car, so what's going on here? >Malcolm Scott Although this problem appeared by mistake on this list, it obviously is one that affects each of us. And we are receiving conflicting advice. For myself, with a powerdown thingy in my machine I would prefer to leave it on all the time, as I've been advised, rather than risk causing premature failure of my hard disk. However, I believe my powerdown affects the big energy consumer, the monitor only. Some say that leaving any part of the computer on is worse, so which is it? I would really like an authoritative answer to this. Mine isn't a Mac either. Sacie Lambertson -------------------- Sacie and all other computer users on the list, I live in a photovoltaic powered house so I am very careful to save electricity, and I am set up so I can easily determine how much power is consumed by any load. I use Macs, but I suspect my observations will be relevant to all computers. When on, the computers I have checked draw about 50 watts. If you had a lot of extra memory and hard drives and cards plugged in, you might get up to 75 or even 100 watts. But the numbers stamped on the backs of computers and all other electrical devices state some maximum possible power rating, and for computers are way off. For instance, the computer I'm running right now has stamped over the power cord 3 amps at 120 volts which would be 360 watts! More than five times higher than what it actually draws! So, those ratings are meaningless. A 15" Sony Energy Star compliant monitor draws about 90 watts when full on. It says 120 volts at 1.8 amps on the label on the back which is 216 watts -- again way off, and monitors aren't like computers where you can add more loads inside them. A 14" LCD monitor I am currently using draws about 20 watts while on [it's label says 200 watts!]. The EPA Energy Star "powerdown thingy" is supposed to drop power requirements below 30 watts in sleep mode. Going from 50 watts down to 30 isn't much of a savings. Also, I have found the "powerdown thingy" works better in some models than others, and in none does it stop all power from flowing to the computer. My current computer goes down to about 25 watts in sleep mode and the LCD monitor goes down to about 10 watts in sleep mode, but an older computer couldn't go to sleep at all and the Sony 15" monitor also didn't seem to really save much in sleep mode, even though the screen would go dark. So, when the energy saving software/hardware doesn't work, it may look like things are sleeping and saving energy, but they may not be. My current set up of computer and LCD monitor goes from 70 watts while full on to 45 watts while in full sleep mode. Not really that impressive a savings compared to turning the things off. On top of all this, most computers and monitors I've checked draw power even when they are "shut down"! You have to use an exterior power switch such as on a surge control strip to actually keep them from drawing power. This is known as the "phantom load" problem. Many modern electronics, especially any with a power cube transformer that is always plugged in, draw current all the time even if you think you have turned them off by some switch on the unit. I've measured from 2 to 10 watts for various phantom loads. My current computer and monitor draw about 7 watts each when "shut down". The other side of this entire equation is whether there is any benefit to leaving the computer and monitor either fully turned on, or in sleep mode when you're not using them. My experience is there is very little benefit to either, and I have read this as well for all modern computer hardware. I always turn off all power to my gear through an external switch, which means it gets cycled on and off several times a day, and I have been using computers in this fashion for almost 10 years and I have never had any component, including hard drives, fail in any manner that could be related to such cycling. (A power supply fan failed that was a few months old, but that hardly seems likely to be related to excessive turning on and off). Furthermore, current sleep modes can have the hard drive spin down which means that it is cycling on and off even if you never shut down the system. And think of it, have you ever heard of an electronic item like a TV or a tape deck that failed because it was turned on and off too many times? The worry about hard drives might have held some credence back in their early days (only about 10 years ago), but I think they will now last for the useful life of a computer even if you turned them on and off 10 times a day. And, I admit that modern operating systems can take what seems like a long time to boot up, but I've just adjusted my expectations and I find something to do for the 60 or 90 seconds ... like find my pencil and paper notes that hold my really original ideas I want to work on. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 21 10:32:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27042 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:32:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09716; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:23:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:18:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09369 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:17:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09365 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:17:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16009 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 08:24:29 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-079.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.79), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd015999; Sat Mar 21 08:24:25 1998 Message-ID: <3513DB4A.229A6514@primenet.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 08:22:50 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: submersible water well pump wanted Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2680 Greetings: I just had a well dug - 160' deep , water static level is 90' , volume approx. 12 gallons per minute. I am looking for a pump. Anyone out there to help? Thanks for your help, John Wilson Ruidoso, NM. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 21 13:09:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00330 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:09:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14805; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:00:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:54:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14489 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:54:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14485 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sc18.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.211]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA21941 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:01:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3513FF46.3164@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 12:56:22 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: computer on/off issue References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2681 The most amazing thing about this thread to me is, I didn't get a single response on the SolidBuilder users list, the list it was actually meant for. Serendipity is alive and well on the net. I did ask Chris if he measured any peak wattage on bootup and what the duration would be. If the wattage drawn during bootup is significantly elevated and of long enough duration, what would the break even point be for the # of startups per day? Sorry Bruce. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 21 22:13:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA08096 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00488; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:58:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA00105 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:58:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA00101 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:58:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p18.ltec.net [206.158.213.28]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA07495 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:47:30 -0600 Message-ID: <35147C96.49C5497A@navix.net> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 20:51:04 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: submersible water well pump wanted References: <3513DB4A.229A6514@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2682 John Wilson wrote: > Greetings: > > I just had a well dug - 160' deep , water static level is > 90' , volume approx. 12 gallons per minute. I am looking for > a pump. Anyone out there to help? > > Thanks for your help, > John Wilson > Ruidoso, NM. > Hi John! Not sure if I know anyone who has a pump or not, but I know where beautiful Ruidoso is... have friends in Alamagordo, and also on up the mountain in Weed, Las Cruces, Dona Ana, and also have relatives and friends in El Paso. Are you looking for a used pump only or a good deal on a new one? I can't promise anything, but I will spread the word for you if you'd like to see if anyone knows of one for you in your local area so it might be easier for you to pick it up and save a few $ on having it shipped. Sharon Eby-Martin currently in Dwight, Nebraska 402-545-2109gs11531@navix.net > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 21 22:34:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA08225 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:34:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01226; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:25:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:20:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA00911 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:19:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00905 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:19:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from DEFAULT (xyp106p19.ltec.net [206.158.213.29]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA11454 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:12:19 -0600 Message-ID: <3511B430.172B@navix.net> Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:11:28 -0800 From: gerald martin Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net Organization: Eby-Martin Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-Navix (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Breadbox (Batch) Water Preheaters References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2683 >I need something that is black or can be painted black >and has a narrow diameter (ie.9-10") and can take normal water pressures >(ie. 40-60 PSI). I have been thinking of using old propane bottles, or large >diameter ABS pipes (ends welded closed). But I need better ideas than these. >Any creative, innovative and useful ideas are appreciated. Jorg Ostrowski Jorg, How about a spent bladder pressure tank used for wells? They tend to be small enough in diameter and can take the PSI you need (and often include a spot on the top for a pressure release valve). Just a thought... Sharon Eby-Martin ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 21 23:50:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08891 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:50:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03287; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:41:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:36:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02871 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:36:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02866 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p19.ltec.net [206.158.213.29]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA23386 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 22:28:50 -0600 Message-ID: <35148AE5.55950FB7@navix.net> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:52:06 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Methane Digesters Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2684 Dear Fred, Thanks for the booklet on the digesters... got it Thursday. I will send back to you what you paid to have it copied and mailed next week. Have you gotten ahold of Bob Cowhey yet? Sharon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 21 23:52:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08911 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:52:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03681; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:43:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:38:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02963 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:38:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02959 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:38:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4RDYa02001 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:44:13 -0500 (EST) From: JNH2 Message-ID: <1d65c50d.3514971f@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:44:13 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Earth-Engaged Houses/Buildings Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2685 Hi all! It seems like an old and worn subject, at least from several years ago, but I have friend that is moving into the "serious" planning stages of a new house that he wants to do "earth-insulated" with radiant floor heat. The heat will likely be fluid heated by a wood fired boiler and propane backup. I am aware of many of the problems that arose a few years back when this type of house building became a sudden fad. I'm also aware of the fairly low insulation value that soil provides, but this fellow is a farmer here outside of St. Louis Missouri and this is the direction he wants to take. His site is mostly East/Northeast orientation, possibility of significant solar gain and mass storage is minimal due to available site (very wooded and owned by someone else to the south). The site does offer the possibility of some exciting aspects of multi-levels up the side of a hill and therefore some use of chimney-effect for moving air and/or heating and cooling. Mainly my question, as I know it right now, is what sort of experience and hints can be found amongst all our list. Moisture and interior condensation are immediate concerns. Most of my work deals with commercial architecture, the bulk of my residential architectural work has been in renovations (existing conditions!) and not bare sites with owner/builders. All advice, hints, experiences and clues will be greatly appreciated! Thanks!! Jim Holdcraft ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 21 23:57:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08967 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:57:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04013; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:48:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:43:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02963 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:38:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02959 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:38:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4RDYa02001 for ; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:44:13 -0500 (EST) From: JNH2 Message-ID: <1d65c50d.3514971f@aol.com> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:44:13 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Earth-Engaged Houses/Buildings Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2686 Hi all! It seems like an old and worn subject, at least from several years ago, but I have friend that is moving into the "serious" planning stages of a new house that he wants to do "earth-insulated" with radiant floor heat. The heat will likely be fluid heated by a wood fired boiler and propane backup. I am aware of many of the problems that arose a few years back when this type of house building became a sudden fad. I'm also aware of the fairly low insulation value that soil provides, but this fellow is a farmer here outside of St. Louis Missouri and this is the direction he wants to take. His site is mostly East/Northeast orientation, possibility of significant solar gain and mass storage is minimal due to available site (very wooded and owned by someone else to the south). The site does offer the possibility of some exciting aspects of multi-levels up the side of a hill and therefore some use of chimney-effect for moving air and/or heating and cooling. Mainly my question, as I know it right now, is what sort of experience and hints can be found amongst all our list. Moisture and interior condensation are immediate concerns. Most of my work deals with commercial architecture, the bulk of my residential architectural work has been in renovations (existing conditions!) and not bare sites with owner/builders. All advice, hints, experiences and clues will be greatly appreciated! Thanks!! Jim Holdcraft ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 22 02:47:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA10593 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 02:47:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA09209; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 02:38:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Mar 1998 02:33:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA08887 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 02:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from javert.pagebreak.com (pagebreak.com [207.105.6.80]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA08883 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 02:32:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from vega ([207.214.212.185]) by javert.pagebreak.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.0) with SMTP id AAA49; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:41:09 -0800 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:38:48 -0800 Message-ID: <01BD5522.7F187440@gordon.price@albedodesign.com> From: gordon.price@albedodesign.com (Gordon Price) Reply-To: "gordon.price@albedodesign.com" To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "'JNH2@aol.com'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Earth-Engaged Houses/Buildings Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 23:38:31 -0800 Organization: albedoDesign X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4008 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2687 On Saturday, March 21, 1998 8:44 PM, JNH2 [SMTP:JNH2@aol.com] wrote: > I'm also aware of the fairly low > insulation value that soil provides With an earth sheltered building, the earth should not provide the insulation. They key with earth shelter is that it provides a huge amount of mass, and therefore seasonal, rather than diurnal, temperature swings, and once you go down far enough, the tempurature stays basically constant year round (approx 68 degrees +/- 5 degrees at 10' of depth for St. Louis, Wade). Because of this, the delta T is very low, so the insulation provided between the habitable space and the earth mass is VERY effective > His site is mostly East/Northeast orientation, possibility of significant solar gain and > mass storage is minimal due to available site (very wooded and owned by > someone else to the south). Unless the only place to build is right on the south property line there should be somewhere that you can thin the trees a little and get some sun. > Moisture and interior condensation > are immediate concerns. Good ventilation and insulation (so there are no cold surfaces) should deal with the condensation issue. For outside moisture getting in, you need to check the soil, site the building well, and there are some tricks with a skirt of insulation and moisture barrier around the building, along with good drainage at the footings, which will help keep the soil dry around the building (which in effect increases the insulation value of the soil as well). Obviously underground houses in flood plains don't work very well ;) I'm sure there are other comments forthcoming. Regards, Gordon Price Some references: Building Underground by Herb Wade Earth Sheltered Residential Design Manual by Underground Space Center, University of Minnesota Earth Sheltered Housing Design by Underground Space Center Anything by Malcolm Wells, the "Father of Underground Architecture" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 22 03:44:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA11019 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 03:44:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA10269; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 03:35:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Mar 1998 03:30:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA10069 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 03:30:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from xipe-totec.cacr.caltech.edu (root@xipe-totec.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA10065 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 03:30:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from angle.cacr.caltech.edu (angle.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.72]) by xipe-totec.cacr.caltech.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA11408 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 00:36:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803220836.AAA11408@xipe-totec.cacr.caltech.edu> X-Sender: mac@delilah X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 00:37:33 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: mac@cacr.caltech.edu (b. lamprecht) Subject: GBlist: metropolis article on the wood stud Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2688 hello everyone, i am writing an fairly long essay for Metropolis magazine on the wood stud, thinking about its role in the American culture and in our understanding of `house'; thinking about its past and future. I have been reading with care the theads on `framing lite' and `what a house is made of' and have learned a great deal. If you have read this month's issue, you may find -- in certain ways -- a sea change at Metropolis. But its goal remains bridging the design and popular culture: the objective is to address issues beyond what a building or piece of furniture looks like to include environmental concerns, experiential concerns, technological concerns, in a critical (thoughtful) way, permitting the author to explore an area with a great deal of individual freedom, as long as an article is written well. I have been a subscriber to this list for i guess more than a year and more recently to EBN and have had the privilege to speak with some of you. If you suggest people to speak with, idiosyncratic resources, opinions on the future of the stud, sources for why America started to frame, I would be grateful (By the way, I do not expect GB listers to do my research, but part of research is throwing my net out) . My deadline is not until July and since I am starting demo on a building project will not be really writing until June, but I wanted to let you all know now. The information and personalities on this list are exceptional. I learn something every day, not just about building but about ethics, ways to consider something, ways to think. Thank you. barbara maccornack lamprecht ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 22 10:36:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14134 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16625; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:27:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:21:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16175 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:21:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16171 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:21:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sc24.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.217]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA06245 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:28:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35152C9D.4F5F@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:22:56 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Earth engaged buildings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2689 The one consideration that I would recommend you put at the top of your list is daylighting. I have several friends living in underground or earth bermed house and have some experience with design and retrofit issues with this type of construction and the issue that always comes to the fore is daylight. The friends that live in houses that were designed with enough daylight distribution are generally much happier with their homes than those that didn't pay close attention to this problem. This problem was addressed in another thread about daylighting in schools and improved performance, it would be worth your time to go back and re-read that thread in the archive. About a week ago, my friend Jan stopped by to tell me that her father was in the hospital and over the course of the conversation, she commented on how energised she was since spending the last 2 weeks at his house. She lives in an underground house that she describes as a warm and cuddly cave, where she hibernates in the winter. She said that she has much more energy at work in a school that is amply daylighted. I don't offer this as scientific proof or anything close, the # of factors that would make up an analysis of Jan's energy patterns is mindboggling. I offer this only to illustrate to you how someone living in an earth-engaged home feels about their experience and to suggest that daylighting is worth adding to your list of design criteria. Given your solar orientation and shading parameters are not ideal, you will have an even harder time working out a reasonable balance than you might on another sight. Luckily, I suppose, you're in a somewhat less extreme heating climate than we are. What are the HDD in St Louis? Is cooling a larger or smaller concern than heating? Is a wood fired boiler going to be overkill? Good luck. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 22 13:34:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15869 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:34:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21756; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:25:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:19:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21384 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:19:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21380 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:19:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mbay152.cruzio.com (mbay152.cruzio.com [165.227.93.152]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id KAA02400 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:26:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980322102435.008dc100@mail.cruzio.com> X-Sender: hlevin@mail.cruzio.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:24:37 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Hal Levin Subject: GBlist: Insulation information request Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2690 Please excuse duplicate posting, if you have seen a message like this already. I have had trouble with my account at GBlist over the past few days. Hopefully, it is all straightened out now. I am looking for information on insulation - sheets, foamed or sprayed-in insulation for a masonry block wall. Insulation is need for the cavity between the inner and outer masonry and for filling the voids in the concrete blocks. In particular, I would like to know of any recent cost or performance experience for 1) sheet EPS, 2) sprayed-in cellulose or 3) foamed-in polyurethane materials. Thermal and indoor air quality are the main performance factors of interest. Additional information on foaming agents or other significant environmental issues would be appreciated. Specific factors that affect the cost (quantity, wall thickness, nature of installation procedures, etc.) would be helpful along with the ultimate price basis. The materials of interest are Demilec and Icynene (polyurethane foams) and Conner cellulose spray. We are concerned about quality control in the application process of the two-part foams. Are there opportunities to verify the adequacy of the mixing of the two-part polyurethane products? Are there ways to ensure or test the mix? What are the consequences of poor mixing? Does it happen? Does the material retain its insulation value over its life? Are there application issues with the sprayed-in cellulose? We note that there are substantial chemical treatment requirements for the cellulose products to resist pests and molds. Has anyone seen any unwanted side effects of the use of these products? Does the product smell, corrode metals with which it has contact, or off-gas substantially, etc.? Does the product go in very moist and if so, does it settle, dry adequately, etc. Is it hydrophobic as applied or does it absorb water when exposed to moisture? Finally, has anyone seen or used a beaded EPS product for filling concrete block voids, and if so, any cost and performance comments would be appreciated there too. Thanks in advance for your help. Hal Hal Levin 2548 Empire Grade, Santa Cruz, CA 95060 408 425 3946 fax 408 426 6522 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 22 15:04:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17730 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:04:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24544; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:55:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:49:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24106 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:49:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24099 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:49:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA17420; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 11:54:50 -0800 Message-ID: <35156BF3.43361B25@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 11:52:19 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hal Levin CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulation information request References: <3.0.32.19980322102435.008dc100@mail.cruzio.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2691 I did a fair amount of research on foamed plastics in determining what insulations would be appropriate for our use and EPS I would say could be demonstrated (for our criteria) as the least heinous of the villainous with the least potential for outgassing of the expansion agent (tends to be limited to time of manufacture and is generally inert by time of installation) and the most consistent or stable thermal properties over time - gains in value over time and with decrease in air temp. The base material is a benzene polymer which is in small enough quantities as to not provide a basis for sensitization unless the walls are subject to extreme temperatures. Inserts of EPS are available from a variety of suppliers for blocks. EPS is generally the best cost value for application. EPS in sufficient thickness will provide a moisture barrier but also has the potential benefit of capturing a percentage of moisture. Sorry I cannot provide any immediate references they have been unintentionally retired from my hard drive. My recommendation, especially for a masonry cavity and block cavity would be a foamed concrete both the cores and cavity can be accessed at the same point for installation and the product is probably the most benign and highly insulative. Air Krete is an established residential product but for commercial applications there should be a wide range of product available which should compare favorably in cost/application to EPS. A side benefit here is the potential of using a higher density in the block cores for added strength (if there is a seismic req.) The basic ingredients are generally concrete, magnesium, and soap. Another recommendation would be rock wool sheet insulation for the cavity which has some additional benefits for drainage. I would think cellulose would be the least desirable because of the large number of amendments required to make it useful (mostly because I do not like wasting cellulose for insulation purposes) Hope this is useful John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Hal Levin wrote: > Please excuse duplicate posting, if you have seen a message like this > already. I have had trouble with my account at GBlist over the past few > days. Hopefully, it is all straightened out now. > > I am looking for information on insulation - sheets, foamed or sprayed-in > insulation for a masonry block wall. Insulation is need for the cavity > between the inner and outer masonry and for filling the voids in the > concrete blocks. > > In particular, I would like to know of any recent cost or performance > experience for 1) sheet EPS, 2) sprayed-in cellulose or 3) foamed-in > polyurethane materials. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 22 15:16:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17920 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:16:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25746; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:07:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:01:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25065 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:01:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25061 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:01:41 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PLT04926; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:07:10 EST To: jonwil@primenet.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:11:49 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: submersible water well pump wanted Message-ID: <19980322.142036.3678.6.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <3513DB4A.229A6514@primenet.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-15,17-34 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2692 John, SolarJack SCS Submersible Centrifugal Pump model 18-160. Will lift 100 feet, flow rate is 14.8 GPM, motor : 6.55 Amps-90 Volts. Requires a seperate controller (available), can be driven with a 750 Watt PV system. $1896.00 How's that for a functional referral? Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Sat, 21 Mar 1998 08:22:50 -0700 John Wilson writes: >Greetings: > >I just had a well dug - 160' deep , water static level is >90' , volume approx. 12 gallons per minute. I am looking for >a pump. Anyone out there to help? > >Thanks for your help, >John Wilson >Ruidoso, NM. > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 22 15:17:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17950 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:17:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25928; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:08:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:02:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25139 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:02:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25130 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:02:40 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PLR04926; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:07:10 EST To: malcolm.scott@which.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:41:03 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Re: Computer On/Off Issues Message-ID: <19980322.142036.3678.4.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980318083100.00693258@cyberia.com> <35118F24.FFB66A06@which.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,8-17,19-81 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2693 Seems kind of nuts to me but it really does take all kinds. We have a local weatherman down here who doubles as a computer show radio talk show host and he has got everyone down here convinced that they should leave their computers on all the time. I don't care how much energy conservation you build into a product if you get one million people leaving their computers on with other appliances it is consuming power and is wasteful. If Dogbert were in power he would not allow it.:) Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 21:33:25 +0000 malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) writes: >Hard to believe that anyone concerned about environmental issues could >walk away from their office knowing their computer would be on all >night. It doesn't take a second to press that button, it's more of a >psychological thing, you just want it to be ready and waiting in the >morning, although it could be waking up while you pour that first >coffee. You don't leave the tv on all night or the radio or the >lights, >or the oven, or the car, so what's going on here? >Malcolm Scott > > >Marcus Sheffer wrote: > >> >With the proliferation of energy saver cpus & periphs, this is fast >> >becoming a non issue, really. I rarely turn my Mac, monitor or >> printer >> >off, since they power down to almost nothing on their own when left >> unused >> >for a short time. >> > >> >Set the times for powerdown according to your usage patterns. >> >> The issue of on/off cycles affecting computers goes back to the >early >> models. Frequent on/off cycles used to shorten the life of the hard >> drive. >> This has not been true since about the mid-1980s. Hard drives >built >> in >> the last ten years (does anyone have one in use that is older?) do >not >> >> suffer this problem and turning it on/off a few times a day will not >> affect >> hard drive life. >> >> The power down requirement for Energy Star compliance is less than >30 >> watts. At this level that equals about 175 kWh/year (16hr/day, 365 >> days). >> At $0.08/kWh this equals about $14/year. Might not be much to the >> individual but multiply this times millions of computers and pretty >> soon >> you need a large power plant or more to meet this load. Costly to >> society >> to build and costly to the environment to operate. >> >> Saving large amounts of energy is quite often the result of many >> little >> actions and rarely the result of a single measure. > > > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 22 15:18:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17960 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:18:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26023; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:09:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:03:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25205 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:03:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25198 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:03:22 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PLQ04926; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:07:09 EST To: dwilson@pullman.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:30:44 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Septic replacement was: Toilet retrofit kits Message-ID: <19980322.142036.3678.3.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19980319020522.007b5ec0@pullman.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,6-7,10-19,21-92 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2694 Well I knew there was a reason that I was monitoring all this dialogue concerning toilets. We just got back from spring break at the vacation home and guess what? Our 30 year old septic system experienced major problems (I'll spare you the details). It is a the right time for us to consider upgrading to some more ecological and intelligent. Would anyone consider making suggestions and referrals concerning composting toilets and/or other technologies we can consider using to replace the Earth-unfriendly system we have? I would appreciate it! Thanks! Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 02:05:22 -0800 Dennis Wilson writes: > >I've had good success with retrofit toilet flappers when coupled with >an >annual tank cleaning and toilet tuneup. The tuneup is critical to >minimize >water useage and optimize flushing action. After cleaning the tank and >valves, I renew the ballcock washers, replace the flapper with an >adjustable flapper (two types are referenced below), raise the water >level >to within 10 cm of the overflow, adjust the flapper to provide just >enough >water to produce a siphon break (one or two gurgles), then rod out and >resize (if necessary) the diverter orifice to fill the bowl to the >weir >level without overflow. Material cost about 10 USD. > >On my old Kohler Wellworth 3.5 GPF toilets, this procedure saved about >1 >GPF (or more if the ballcock washers were abraded), virtually >eliminated >occasional double flushing, and reduced bowl cleaning frequency. > >Frugal Flush by Frugal Technologies is a retrofit toilet flapper with >adjustable air-bleed holes. A diagram of this device is at: >http://www.cadvision.com/Home_Pages/accounts/yeungk/fflush.htm > >Float-A-Flapper and Water Mizer from American Water and Energy Savers, >Inc. >are retrofit toilet flappers with adjustable floats. Details at: >http://www.americanwater.com/awesflap.html > >These devices can also be used to increase the GPF rate on some 1.6 >GPF >toilets to reduce or eliminate double flushing (justification: 1 x 2.4 >GPF >is less than 2 x 1.6 GPF) > >About 10 years ago, several Swedish factory-crafted homes assembled in >the >USA contained a Swedish Water Saving System (WSS), also known as the >One >Gallon System, to flush toilets with as little as 2 liters of water. >This >WSS uses a flow-increasing accumulator/booster to eliminate blockage >in >horizontal waste pipes by batching and discharging at velocities >exceeding >applicable code-specified minimum flow rates. > >Detailed information on this technology is available on the WISA >Sanitary >Technology website at: http://www.wisa-sanitair.com/eng/index.html > >Another low flow approach slurried the waste to prevent blockage. The >Fluidizer Toilet by Control Fluidics contains a blender device that >liquefies solid waste and toilet paper for a 2 liter flush. This >toilet was >used in the Advanced Houses Green Home in Waterloo, Ontario and is >described at: >http://www.apsc.com/power/esh/LFTGBath.asp > >Dennis Wilson >Pullman, WA > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 22 19:16:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA22255 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA04596; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:07:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:02:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA03979 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:01:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03965 for ; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 19:01:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip204.efn.org [204.214.97.204]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA17247; Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:05:59 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: "Robert Bolman" , Subject: Re: GBlist: NW Slideshow Tour Update Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 15:07:05 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd55e7$3b4006a0$ce61d6cc@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2695 Robert Bolman 888 Almaden St, Eugene, OR 97402 541-344-7196 The Northwest tour of my acclaimed talk and slide presentation, Natural Building and Social Justice, is falling into place with the following schedule (parts of it tentative at this point): Portland: June 18, Thursday Olympia: June 22, Monday June 23, Tuesday is still open Seattle: June 24, Wednesday Victoria: date not yet established Vancouver: June 27, Saturday Contacts for environmental groups that would potentially host me would be appreciated. The following paragraph is from a thank you letter sent to me by Youth for Environmental Sanity (YES): “Your slide show was fantastic! It was unanimously voted the best guest presentation at our 2 Week Sustainable Living Skills Retreat July 20-August 2, 1997. It was fast-paced, witty, hilarious, educational, and powerful. To get across so much information, and yet have it be so entertaining is a rare gift in a presenter. A gift that you have in abundance.” My slide presentation takes about 75 minutes. I use two projectors placing images on side by side screens thereby enabling me to compare and juxtapose images and ideas. This also enables me to “leapfrog” through about 300 slides (hopefully) without putting people to sleep. I begin by poking fun at the oversized, overpriced, environmentally clueless houses that have become so common in recent years. I waste no time in revealing my political agenda. I point out that while every effort is made to see to it that those that can afford an expensive house have a variety to chose from, those that are less fortunate (or less functional) are allowed to sleep on the streets of this very wealthy country (the United States). I then point to an alternative. I show many examples of Natural Building. Most notably, I focus on the highly innovative straw bale and earth structure I’m presently building in Eugene, Oregon. From straw bale to cob & adobe to the earthship concept, I try to show a broad overview including passive solar design, solar hot water, PV, gray water, catch water and permaculture. I also explore the rich historical precedent for this type of building with a few examples of Natural Building from around the world. I then begin talking with hard numbers about the poor distribution of the world’s wealth. While 90 % of my presentation focuses on Natural Building, it is at this point that it begins to sound like a political tirade as I suggest that U.S. foreign policy has served to perpetuate this poor distribution of resources. I then talk about a shanty town that I explored in Mexico. I suggest that from an environmental point of view, it would be better for us to live like them than for them to somehow achieve our lifestyle. I’m suggesting voluntary simplicity. I close by talking about human consciousness and the need to learn to see the world a little more clearly. I end with photos of trees and children to serve as a reminder of why we must do the best we can to save the world for future generations. I am comfortable sharing my presentation with groups ranging from a living room full of people up to large crowds. I bring my own projectors with zoom lenses to accommodate a variety of room sizes and situations. I’ll provide a screen unless a screen or a white wall is already available in the room. I’ve thought about touring the larger parts of country like this. This NW tour is a way for me to test the waters – so to speak. If I were to spend many weeks or months doing this, I would need to get paid. I feel that most environmental groups ought to be able to come up with $100 to give to a speaker coming from out of town, but first and foremost, I want for people to hear what I have to say. For this “fledgling” NW tour, I will ask that I be fed and housed for the night. Beyond that, if anyone wants to shower me with money, that would be fine. I can use it. I’ll be putting together promotional materials soon. If someone with technical expertise would care to help me set up a web site, it has become obvious how useful that would be. I look forward to hearing from all interested parties. Robert Bolman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 23 10:24:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06863 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:24:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02542; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:15:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:08:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01878 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:08:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01867 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:07:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.43]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 9188600 ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:24:06 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980323100102.0069468c@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:01:02 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: Computer On/Off Issues Cc: David.F.Lambertson" "@crest.org In-Reply-To: <199803210700.CAA27895@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2696 Sacie Lambertson wrote: >Although this problem appeared by mistake on this list, it obviously is one >that affects each of us. And we are receiving conflicting advice. For >myself, with a powerdown thingy in my machine I would prefer to leave it on >all the time, as I've been advised, rather than risk causing premature >failure of my hard disk. However, I believe my powerdown affects the big >energy consumer, the monitor only. Some say that leaving any part of the >computer on is worse, so which is it? I would really like an authoritative >answer to this. Mine isn't a Mac either. Marcus Sheffer replies: OK, let's put this one to bed. I thought I answered this question in a previous post. Not authoritative enough I guess. ;-) A typical computer uses 70 watts in operation. If your computer is Energy Star compliant then is should power down to less than 30 watts when idle. A typical monitor uses 80 watts in operation. If your monitor is Energy Star compliant then it should also power down to less than 30 watts when idle. Turning the computer off will not adversily affect any of the internal components. According to an ESource report (TU-94-8), "A common myth about computers is that it is harmful to the hard drive and the other components to shut them down. The practice of leaving computers on can be traced back to when large soap-lubricated hard drives for mainframe computers performed more reliably when left running. Modern, miniature hard drives function reliably even if turned off frequently. Manufacturers of computer chips and hard drives report that new equipment should experience no reduction in life expectancy due to power cycling, provided correct shut-down procedures are followed. Other studies have shown that degradation from cycling of computers and monitors is minimal when power is cycled several times per day, with the potential benefit of longer equipment life due to shorter operating hours." Further, a book prepared by ACEEE (Guide to Energy-Efficient Office Equipment) states, "It is important to inform users that turning computers off will have no significant effect on their useful lifetimes. This old rule is a remnant of the days when larger hard disks were degraded by the mechanical stress of spinning up and down rapidly. However, today's generation of disks are manufacturered to operate normally with 15,000-20,000 on-off cycles in its lifetime; this translates to three on-off cycles every day for over 15 years. Thus, even several on-off cycles per business day will not decrease the useful lifetime of a computer." Also refer to the following US EPA Energy Star Computer web site. The following site is a newsletter with an article about a New Zealand program to reduce computer energy use that mentions the on-off myth. http://www.epa.gov/appdstar/esoe/starbyte/sbn_1096.html TURN IT OFF WHEN NOT IN USE FOR ANY EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME. IT WILL NOT HARM THE HARD DRIVE. As I stated in a previous post on this issue, "The power down requirement for Energy Star compliance is less than 30 watts. At this level that equals about 175 kWh/year (16hr/day, 365 days). At $0.08/kWh this equals about $14/year. Might not be much to the individual but multiply this times millions of computers and pretty soon you need a large power plant or more to meet this load. Costly to society to build and costly to the environment to operate." ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 23 10:31:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07091 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:31:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03487; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:22:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:16:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02690 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:16:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02681 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:16:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KeT14008; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:21:18 EST To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:10:22 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth engaged buildings Message-ID: <19980323.102226.6622.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <35152C9D.4F5F@dreamscape.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,5-6,8,10,12,14-20 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2697 Hi, I just read your posting about being sure to add dayliighting to earth-bermed homes. I guess the problem you discussed is probably related to the problem of depression that many people suffer in climates with long winters. Since I am only fleetingly acquainted with this type of building, excuse my ignorance. Would a good source of daylighting by accomplished by skylights and are there any long enough to be used in underground homes? Would you use a straight, standard skylight or one like "skypipe"? What other means do you use when, as you mentioned, you need to retrofit? Thanks. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 23 10:35:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07197 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:35:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03892; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:26:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:20:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03170 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:20:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from AICS.NET (aics.net [209.21.198.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03158 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:20:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.21.198.51] ([209.21.198.51]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 8361900 ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:34:53 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:36:39 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, sbtauto@juno.com From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: Septic replacement Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2698 steve shepard writes: We just got back from spring break at the vacation home and guess what? Our 30 year old septic system experienced major problems (I'll spare you the details). It is a the right time for us to consider upgrading to some more ecological and intelligent. Would anyone consider making suggestions and referrals concerning composting toilets and/or other technologies we can consider using to replace the Earth-unfriendly system we have? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, to repeat this info (and, yes, promo), The Ecos Catalog features 20+ commercial composting toilet models (5 brands), as well as micro-flush toilets and other water-conserving products. $2 from Ecos, 152 Commonwealth Ave., Concord, MA 01742 978/369-3951 The company also sells plans for two owner-built systems. But never let it be said that we don't tell folks about our competitors. To find out about other sources, sift through this site: http://www.nwnet.co.uk/earthwise/ For a forum of users, try: http://www.oldgrowth.org/compost/wwwboard/toilets/index.html Unfortunately, the info that most homeowners need to figure out what they need to do, what they can really live with and how to get it permitted doesn't really exist in one place. Dave Del Porto of Sustainable Strategies is writing a book on this topic, which should be out this spring. There are also better septic systems out there. We see them at shows, but I don't know of a single source for info. Try Small Flows Clearinghouse: www.nsfc.wvu.edu (but don't bother with their composting toilet info--it's WAY out of date) Surf away! Here in Massachusetts, composting toilets now have the status of plumbing appliances. Also, the state tightened its on-site system regs, making more than half the state's STASs illegal. More and more (very mainstream!) homeowners are now looking to the alternative systems, such as --gasp!--composting toilets. More and more, they are being used with micro-flush toilets. Mass. gives a 40% credit (reduction) on design flow if you use a CT. AND the state is approving gray-water systems on a case-by-case basis. Other states are fast writing gray-water regs. Lots of change! Maybe that flushing sound will be a bit of nostalgia in our lifetimes. (Can America really deal with its shit? We'll see.) Shift happens! Anna Zander of Ecos ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 23 10:51:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07657 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:51:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04955; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:41:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:36:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04507 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:36:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp0-alterdial.uu.net (smtp0-alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04497 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:36:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop0-alterdial.uu.net by smtp0-alterdial.uu.net with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: pop0-alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.27]) id QQehys26760; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:43:04 GMT Received: from eei.org by pop0-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: mail.eei.org [204.254.108.2]) id QQehys18874; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:43:04 GMT Received: from WPDomain-Message_Server by eei.org with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:43:19 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:42:45 -0500 From: Harvey Sachs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Caution on "Earth Engaged Buildings" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2699 Just a note that conventional ductwork is probably a very bad idea beneath the slab of an "earth-engaged" building. It may be possible to do good work with PVC ductwork, carefully sealed, but I doubt the ability of even dedicated contractors to install the "obvious" system correctly in these structures. The "obvious" system is a downdraft furnace, with whatever kind of source (air-source or ground source heat pump, propane, gas, or ??), using subslab ducts for forced-air distribution with perimeter registers. If these ducts leak, the ground becomes pressurized, and whatever gases are scavenged from the ground can come into the house. I spent a lot of time working on a case about 1981 in which we were able to measure rather high emanation rates of radon diffusing through the sheetrock. The sheet rock, tested in the lab, was not the source. The supply system neatly scavenged, apparently with rather high efficiency, much of the radon beneath the slab. since the subslab spac was kept at higher pressure than the house, the radon and (presumably) other (unmeasured) soil gases just diffused through the sheetrock, driven by the pressure gradient. In contrast, I have seen installations using downdraft furnaces with perimeter sealed PVC ductwork, cast into the bottom of the slab and extending below it. I have not measured radon in such systems. Our group has found a good air balance (little leakiness) in measurements. Hope I didn't rain on a parade! Harvey Sachs Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 23 11:10:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08086 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:10:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06377; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:00:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:55:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05940 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:55:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05936 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:55:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id JAA0000008446; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:55:53 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980323155718.006c12a8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:57:18 -0600 To: From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: computer on/off issue Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2700 Chris, thank you for the what certainly appears like a definitive answer to the on/off computer issue. As it is, in spite of its power-down ability I've regularly turned off my monitor when I'm not using it, but now, with your response in mind, I will turn the whole thing off. Must admit though it sure has been simple to get going again with it only partially off, specially when I want to dial in to my local list server. Thank you for the response. Sacie Lambertson > >I live in a photovoltaic powered house so I am very careful to save >electricity, and I am set up so I can easily determine how much power is >consumed by any load. I use Macs, but I suspect my observations will be >relevant to all computers. When on, the computers I have checked draw >about 50 watts. If you had a lot of extra memory and hard drives and cards >plugged in, you might get up to 75 or even 100 watts. But the numbers >stamped on the backs of computers and all other electrical devices state >some maximum possible power rating, and for computers are way off. For >instance, the computer I'm running right now has stamped over the power >cord 3 amps at 120 volts which would be 360 watts! More than five times >higher than what it actually draws! So, those ratings are meaningless. > >A 15" Sony Energy Star compliant monitor draws about 90 watts when full on. >It says 120 volts at 1.8 amps on the label on the back which is 216 watts >-- again way off, and monitors aren't like computers where you can add more >loads inside them. A 14" LCD monitor I am currently using draws about 20 >watts while on [it's label says 200 watts!]. > >The EPA Energy Star "powerdown thingy" is supposed to drop power >requirements below 30 watts in sleep mode. Going from 50 watts down to 30 >isn't much of a savings. Also, I have found the "powerdown thingy" works >better in some models than others, and in none does it stop all power from >flowing to the computer. My current computer goes down to about 25 watts >in sleep mode and the LCD monitor goes down to about 10 watts in sleep >mode, but an older computer couldn't go to sleep at all and the Sony 15" >monitor also didn't seem to really save much in sleep mode, even though the >screen would go dark. So, when the energy saving software/hardware doesn't >work, it may look like things are sleeping and saving energy, but they may >not be. My current set up of computer and LCD monitor goes from 70 watts >while full on to 45 watts while in full sleep mode. Not really that >impressive a savings compared to turning the things off. > >On top of all this, most computers and monitors I've checked draw power >even when they are "shut down"! You have to use an exterior power switch >such as on a surge control strip to actually keep them from drawing power. >This is known as the "phantom load" problem. Many modern electronics, >especially any with a power cube transformer that is always plugged in, >draw current all the time even if you think you have turned them off by >some switch on the unit. I've measured from 2 to 10 watts for various >phantom loads. My current computer and monitor draw about 7 watts each >when "shut down". > >The other side of this entire equation is whether there is any benefit to >leaving the computer and monitor either fully turned on, or in sleep mode >when you're not using them. My experience is there is very little benefit >to either, and I have read this as well for all modern computer hardware. >I always turn off all power to my gear through an external switch, which >means it gets cycled on and off several times a day, and I have been using >computers in this fashion for almost 10 years and I have never had any >component, including hard drives, fail in any manner that could be related >to such cycling. (A power supply fan failed that was a few months old, but >that hardly seems likely to be related to excessive turning on and off). >Furthermore, current sleep modes can have the hard drive spin down which >means that it is cycling on and off even if you never shut down the system. >And think of it, have you ever heard of an electronic item like a TV or a >tape deck that failed because it was turned on and off too many times? The >worry about hard drives might have held some credence back in their early >days (only about 10 years ago), but I think they will now last for the >useful life of a computer even if you turned them on and off 10 times a >day. And, I admit that modern operating systems can take what seems like a >long time to boot up, but I've just adjusted my expectations and I find >something to do for the 60 or 90 seconds ... like find my pencil and paper >notes that hold my really original ideas I want to work on. > >Chris Neurath > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 23 11:31:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08582 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:30:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08686; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:14:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07602 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:14:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07589 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:14:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id KAA0000022438; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:20:59 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980323162218.006d1aa8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:22:18 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: wood fired radiant heating Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2701 Listers--Where would you send me for good information about wood stove fired heating systems for radiant floor heating (with a back up of course)? Am doing some re-grouping here for one building project, but have positive use for the information in another. I know that Jorg heats his floors this way. Assuming this type of system is used only intermittently and will heat concrete, or bricks or pavers (ie not wood) how long does it take to heat up? Maybe too long to be worth the expense of installation? In both projects there is a passive solar aspect, in one, the passive solar will be the main source of heat, in the other, the intermittently-heated space, the passive is helpful but incidental (no heat sink among other things). Thank you in advance. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 23 12:32:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09992 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:32:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12895; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:23:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:17:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12149 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:17:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12139 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:17:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA04070 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:23:48 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980319020522.007b5ec0@pullman.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 13:00:30 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Toilet retrofit kits Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2702 98.03.21 1248est May I pull everyone back for a moment from slurried/blended waste (I will never enjoy a blended daquiri again, thanks Dennis) and the like (maybe I should use a different word there)? Did our regulators miss it on this one? Are we focusing too much effort on WATER conservation via toliets...effort that, given the resources of time & attention among other things, should have been directed at more crucial issues, like fossil fuel usage? It is too late now, but in the future, the better course on this type of LESS-critical issue would seem to be to take a gradual approach as has been done with automotive fuel efficiency (pls tuck in the flames over your opinion of how that has worked, not the issue here), to allow technology to catch up with policy in a reasonable way? Esp when other issues are calling for the drastic falloffthecliff solutions, "you will make major changes, ready or not, by xx/xx/xx". Just MHO as a dedicated, loyal user of the john since birth, well after age 2 or so. jh "Let's not waste our efforts" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 23 15:03:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14372 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:03:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22912; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:54:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:48:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22448 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:47:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp4.nwnexus.com (smtp4.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22443 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:47:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from dell (blv-lx105-ip44.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.194]) by smtp4.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA09752 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:54:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980323115541.007a1350@mail.halcyon.com> X-Sender: obrien@mail.halcyon.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:55:41 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Judy Walton, O'Brien & Company" Subject: GBlist: 3/4 inch thick fiber cement siding Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2703 Hi everyone - I am doing some research associated with the new City Hall on Bainbridge Island, WA. The architect desires to use fiber cement siding, 3/4 inch thick and in 12 feet lengths. We have contacted one well-known manufacturer, James Hardie Corporation, but their thickest material is only 5/16". Does anyone know of another manufacturer (with phone number, if possible) that makes Hardieplank-like siding? I can contact them to see if they manufacture in 3/4 inch thicknesses. Thanks - Jane Simmons Kathleen O'Brien O'Brien & Company 206-842-8995 obrien@halcyon.com Jane Simmons O'Brien & Company 206-842-8995 obrien@halcyon.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 23 15:15:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14632 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23863; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:06:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:00:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA23281 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:00:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23247 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:59:53 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 3934 invoked by uid 0); 23 Mar 1998 20:06:58 -0000 Received: from ppp-44.canton.northnet.org (HELO ?205.232.94.24?) (205.232.94.24) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 23 Mar 1998 20:06:58 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 09:43:02 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: computer on/off issue Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2704 The following is my off-list conversation with Chuck about whether start-up surges are significant when trying to decide whether to leave computers running or turn them off: ----------------------- >Chris, > >What is the maximum power spike at bootup, if any and what duration? >Would this make enough of a difference to skew total energy usage over a ># of on/off cycles? > > >Chuck Chuck, "Spikes" at startup of electrical devices don't generally add up to significant amounts of power. Power is measured--and paid for--in kilowatt-hours, not in watts. A kilowatt-hour is a load of 1000 watts for one hour. My instrumentation is not fast enough to measure the start-up surges, which means they last only a few seconds and probably a fraction of a second. So, even if we assumed an impossibly high surge of 1000 watts for one minute during start up, that is only 1/60 of a kilowatt-hour. (1 kilowatt for 1/60th of an hour). If you typically keep the computer system on for an hour before shut down, and it draws 100 watts, then that will be 1/10 of a kilowatt-hour, or 6 times more than the start-up surge. And, I would reiterate that my experience suggests the startup surge would typically be less than 200 watts for less than a second ... which means the kilowatt-hours needed for startup are really about 1/1000th of the power used during one hour of normal operation. Totally insignificant. Chris Neurath ------------------------------------- >I'm confusing this with demand rate meters, where startup surge is what >it is all about, this clearly doesn't fit here. Thanks for the >clarification. > >Chuck Chuck, Ah, yes. Not many residences have demand rate meters, but some offices probably do. Many factories have them, but their surges are from huge electric motors, not computers starting up. I suppose an office building that was on demand rate metering might run into problems on their demand rate billing if 100 computers all were started up within a second of each other. That sure doesn't seem very likely though. Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 23 15:20:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14706 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:20:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24352; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:10:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:05:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA23710 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:04:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from stingray.bwbr.com (stingray.bwbr.com [206.147.245.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23696 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:04:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from stephanie.bwbr.com (sm5173.bwbr.com [206.147.245.60]) by stingray.bwbr.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18457; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:09:50 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199803232009.OAA18457@stingray.bwbr.com> From: "Stephanie McDaniel" To: , "Judy Walton, O'Brien & Company" Subject: Re: GBlist: 3/4 inch thick fiber cement siding Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 14:15:09 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2705 EBN mentioned ABTCo as a manufacturer in their July / August 1997 article on sidings. http://www.abtco.com/ I'm also interested in any experience people have had with the fiber cement product. Has anyone used it colder climates? Any thoughts on fiber cement siding vs. steel siding? ---------- From: Judy Walton, O'Brien & Company To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: 3/4 inch thick fiber cement siding Date: Monday, March 23, 1998 1:55 PM Hi everyone - I am doing some research associated with the new City Hall on Bainbridge Island, WA. The architect desires to use fiber cement siding, 3/4 inch thick and in 12 feet lengths. We have contacted one well-known manufacturer, James Hardie Corporation, but their thickest material is only 5/16". Does anyone know of another manufacturer (with phone number, if possible) that makes Hardieplank-like siding? I can contact them to see if they manufacture in 3/4 inch thicknesses. Thanks - Jane Simmons Kathleen O'Brien O'Brien & Company 206-842-8995 obrien@halcyon.com Jane Simmons O'Brien & Company 206-842-8995 obrien@halcyon.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 23 17:01:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA17348 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:01:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00539; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:51:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:45:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA29904 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:45:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29894 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:45:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA15891 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:51:47 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:39:19 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: computer on/off issue/power demand fr on/off'ing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2706 98.03.23 1623est Getting tired of this one, but the demand thing is a familiar one to me. Pls take note that utilities, or at least Va Power here, measure peak monthly demand for commercial customers as the maximum avg for a half hour period during your billing cycle. Thus, peaks that last only a fraction of a second probably have little effect. HVAC & large ovens like we have, now there is effect. I cried while putting in the 100A 3 phase circuit breaker for our CombiSteamer. Nothing like the crying each month, when I see the combi-ned effect of peak demand and just plain old usage. I don't worry about my computers (mostly macs) then. Although I hate to bring it up (with its potential for much hand wringing & less than expert opinionating) a current and expanding issue for power companies is the PF harmonics contained in computers & similar loads. It is different & more challenging for them to handle. Jumping them on every day at about the same time (don't forget "9 to 5") in this way could get very exciting in the long run. I freely express my lack of expertise in power factor harmonics, but I believe the whole thing is distantly related to the old story about soldiers having to break step when they crossed certain types of bridges. Apparently if a large enough contingent was sufficiently sychronized in their marching, the resultant vibration & shock wave could cause a bridge to come down. Engineers care to comment. Look for the power companies to show increasing concern about the issue. Solve one problem, look out for its brother. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 23 17:05:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA17484 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:05:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00531; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:51:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:45:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA29874 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:45:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29853 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:44:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA15874 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:51:25 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3513DB4A.229A6514@primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 16:01:04 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: submersible water well pump wanted Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2707 98.03.23 1553est For our restaurant we just instd a new Goulds 3/4 hp, 10gs07422 (might be the sn?), submersible at 120 ft. About 15 stages, cost $540+install. My other water expert likes Grundfos a bit better, but I would suggest you consult local experts. Check warranties & friends' experiences. A cage of mesh or other special guarding around the pump is sometimes desireable if there is trash in your well (let me know if you want more info on that & I will get Rick in touch with you). Sounds like good static level, good flow to this layman. jh >Greetings: > >I just had a well dug - 160' deep , water static level is >90' , volume approx. 12 gallons per minute. I am looking for >a pump. Anyone out there to help? > >Thanks for your help, >John Wilson >Ruidoso, NM. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 23 17:31:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA17993 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:31:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA02087; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:21:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:16:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA01598 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:16:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01590 for ; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:15:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sc12.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.205]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA29115; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:22:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3516DF84.888@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 17:17:40 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, "Beverly A. Weiter" Subject: Re: GBlist: Earth engaged buildings References: <35152C9D.4F5F@dreamscape.com> <19980323.102226.6622.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2708 Beverly, I'm not sure that there are any simple answers to your questions, I'll try to take them case by case. Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > Hi, > > I just read your posting about being sure to add dayliighting to > earth-bermed homes. > I guess the problem you discussed is probably related to the problem of > depression that many people suffer in climates with long winters. Yes, it would seem that daylight deprivation in extreme northern or southern geographies and high depression/suicide incidence, is likely correlative with diminished daylight distribution in underground homes and human health/performance. Factories, offices and schools with limited natural light seem to adversely effect people by the same mechanism. I believe that some studies have already been sighted on this list, particlurly in regard to schools. > Since I am only fleetingly acquainted with this type of building, excuse > my ignorance. > Would a good source of daylighting by accomplished by skylights and are > there any > long enough to be used in underground homes? Skylights are certainly an option, as always balacing heat gain, heat loss, ventilation and natural light distribution is the main concern, finding that balance is not always clearcut. Simple heat loss calculations don't account for the health benefits derived from daylighting and how one can effectively calculate those benefits is beyond me. I just accept the importance of natural lighting as essential to healthy living and search for the most efficient method to provide it. If someone has devised a formulae for calculating these various elements of design, I would love to hear it. This is one of those places where design becomes intuitive as opposed to engineered. Would you use a straight, > standard > skylight or one like "skypipe"? What other means do you use when, as you > mentioned, you need to retrofit? Whatever works under the circumstances, with the least disruption and the most benefit. The # of possible scenarios in retrofitting earth-engaged housing, is about as vast as the # of earth-engaged houses out there. What is the roof structure/finish? What are the climate considerations; wet, dry, snow? The one thing I would say is that these homes are not ideally suited for retrofitting as a general rule and if one were considering this kind of design, make every effort to design with the future in mind. With proper planning and design, earth berming can be very appealing, not just for heating considerations but even more for aesthetic reasons. Has anyone ever worked with reflecting daylight into this kind of structure or commercial spaces with limited daylighting? Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville,NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 24 11:04:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07838 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:04:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05636; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:55:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:48:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05094 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:48:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from AICS.NET (aics.net [209.21.198.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05087 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:48:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.21.198.51] ([209.21.198.45]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 8573400 ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:02:59 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:04:44 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #126 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2709 "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" wrote: Are we focusing too much effort on WATER conservation via toliets...effort that, given the resources of time & attention among other things, should have been directed at more crucial issues, like fossil fuel usage? ------------------------------- No, Jim. Why is the lack of potable water worldwide and the massive water pollution caused by flush toilets LESS important than fossil fuel usage? I think there is radical ignorance about this issue. Energy is still the sexy issue. Consider this: >Water shortages could spark wars, Paris forum told > > > By Crispian Balmer > PARIS, (Reuters) - Scarce global water resources could >dampen economic growth or even cause future wars, France's >environment minister told an international water conference >which opened Thursday. > Ministers and officials from 84 countries are meeting in >Paris for three days to thrash out recommendations on how to >maximize the world's finite fresh water reserves. > ``Unless there is a rapid change in methods of water >production and consumption, this resource, which only exists in >limited amounts, will become an important brake on economic >development,'' Environment Minister Dominique Voynet said. > ``It may even become a source of new and dramatic >conflicts,'' she told the opening session of the forum. > The conference heard that if present water resource planning > >was not changed, almost two thirds of humanity might suffer from >moderate to serious water shortage before the year 2005. > A fifth of the world's population already lacks reliable >access to clean water and, with birth rates climbing in many >regions, the problem was becoming acute. > Abu Zeid, president of the World Water Council, told the >conference that up to 10 million people died each year because >of water-borne diseases such as typhoid and dengue fever. > Dire warnings about water shortages are not new. The issue >was first raised at a U.N. conference in Stockholm in 1972 and >the 1992 Earth Summit in Brazil showed that water was a major >concern for developed and developing countries alike. > The problem was revisited by the United Nations General >Assembly in June last year and French President Jacques Chirac >offered to host an international conference to work out new >water strategies. > The conference is expected to approve the outlines of an >action plan for the period 2000-2010. The plan focuses on >improving knowledge of water resources, optimizing water >resources and developing regulatory tools at global and regional >levels. > The conclusions will be discussed at a forthcoming session >of the United Nations Committee on Sustainable Development in >New York at the end of April. > Statistics supplied by the French Foreign Ministry said >water consumption had doubled in the last 20 years. ``About half >this increase is caused by population growth,'' it said. Requiring 1.6 gal.-flush toilets is not radical. Anna Zander ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 24 11:56:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09415 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:56:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09878; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:47:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:41:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09471 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:41:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09457 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:41:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-196-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.196]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08860; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:48:04 -0500 Message-ID: <3517E3C0.32194CA1@together.net> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:48:01 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sustainable Strategies CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #126 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2710 Water conservation, for domestic water systems, has a direct impact on energy consumption, though the energy use is often latent. Consider pump energy, whether from a central city water source or an on-site well. Pumping the water so as to provide about 50 PSIG (min) at building entrance consumes a respectable amount of energy when viewed annually. Reducing flow volume to any terminal fixture will reduce power consumption. Yes, this is often small potatoes for residential, but never the less a factor. When one addresses plumbing fixtures in tall buildings, especially high rise, you would not believe what it takes to get water to the 30 th. something floor. This is the other extreme side of providing service water. Water iteself is a valuable resource, one which I often casually take for granted, living in the humid, moist US East. Tom Anderson Sustainable Strategies wrote: > "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" wrote: > Are we focusing too much effort on > WATER conservation via toliets...effort that, given the resources of time & > attention among other things, should have been directed at more crucial > issues, like fossil fuel usage? > > ------------------------------- > No, Jim. Why is the lack of potable water worldwide and the massive water > pollution caused by flush toilets LESS important than fossil fuel usage? I > think there is radical ignorance about this issue. Energy is still the sexy > issue. > > Consider this: > > >Water shortages could spark wars, Paris forum told > > > > > > By Crispian Balmer > > PARIS, (Reuters) - Scarce global water resources could > >dampen economic growth or even cause future wars, France's > >environment minister told an international water conference > >which opened Thursday. > > Ministers and officials from 84 countries are meeting in > >Paris for three days to thrash out recommendations on how to > >maximize the world's finite fresh water reserves. > > ``Unless there is a rapid change in methods of water > >production and consumption, this resource, which only exists in > >limited amounts, will become an important brake on economic > >development,'' Environment Minister Dominique Voynet said. > > ``It may even become a source of new and dramatic > >conflicts,'' she told the opening session of the forum. > > The conference heard that if present water resource planning > > > >was not changed, almost two thirds of humanity might suffer from > >moderate to serious water shortage before the year 2005. > > A fifth of the world's population already lacks reliable > >access to clean water and, with birth rates climbing in many > >regions, the problem was becoming acute. > > Abu Zeid, president of the World Water Council, told the > >conference that up to 10 million people died each year because > >of water-borne diseases such as typhoid and dengue fever. > > Dire warnings about water shortages are not new. The issue > >was first raised at a U.N. conference in Stockholm in 1972 and > >the 1992 Earth Summit in Brazil showed that water was a major > >concern for developed and developing countries alike. > > The problem was revisited by the United Nations General > >Assembly in June last year and French President Jacques Chirac > >offered to host an international conference to work out new > >water strategies. > > The conference is expected to approve the outlines of an > >action plan for the period 2000-2010. The plan focuses on > >improving knowledge of water resources, optimizing water > >resources and developing regulatory tools at global and regional > >levels. > > The conclusions will be discussed at a forthcoming session > >of the United Nations Committee on Sustainable Development in > >New York at the end of April. > > Statistics supplied by the French Foreign Ministry said > >water consumption had doubled in the last 20 years. ``About half > >this increase is caused by population growth,'' it said. > > Requiring 1.6 gal.-flush toilets is not radical. > > Anna Zander > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 24 13:24:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11754 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14907; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:15:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:09:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14335 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:09:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14323; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:09:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.104.212] (usrts1p212.port.net [207.237.104.212]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA23512; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:15:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803241815.NAA23512@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: GBlist: On a historical note.. Date: Tue, 24 Mar 98 13:17:20 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" , "EEBA List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2711 Hollow core masonry under floor thermal distribution systems, i.e. solar slab, were proposed years ago when IAQ issues were not as much in the forefront as today. Am I correct in assuming this type of solar heated air distribution system has been dropped from usage because of these air quality and lack of access for cleaning problems? Seems like on the preformance front they would work....... Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 24 14:23:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13208 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:23:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18239; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:13:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:08:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA17787 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:07:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA17781 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p16.ltec.net [206.158.213.26]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA17645 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:27:41 -0600 Message-ID: <3517EDE4.AB16D043@navix.net> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 11:31:18 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Septic replacement was: Toilet retrofit kits References: <3.0.5.32.19980319020522.007b5ec0@pullman.com> <19980322.142036.3678.3.sbtauto@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2712 Dear Steve, This is a company that I received info on a few years ago for composting toilets. We built our own composting toilet (for two people- which we have outgrown) and never got so far as ordering an NSF approved toilet from them, but this company does provide good composting toilets with warranties last I heard: SUN-MAR Corporation 5035 N. Service Rd., C2 Burlington, Ont. Canada L7L 5V2 and/or 900 Hertel Ave. Buffalo, NY 14216 U.S.A. Phone: 416-332-1314 Fax: 416-332-1315 They should be able to send you a brochure or information pamphlet with pictures and details. Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net sbtauto@juno.com wrote: > Well I knew there was a reason that I was monitoring all this dialogue > concerning toilets. > > We just got back from spring break at the vacation home and guess what? > Our 30 year old septic system experienced major problems (I'll spare you > the details). It is a the right time for us to consider upgrading to > some more ecological and intelligent. > > Would anyone consider making suggestions and referrals concerning > composting toilets and/or other technologies we can consider using to > replace the Earth-unfriendly system we have? > > I would appreciate it! Thanks! > > Steve Shepard > SBT Automation > 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 > sbtauto@juno.com > http://www.lore.net/~sbt > > On Thu, 19 Mar 1998 02:05:22 -0800 Dennis Wilson > writes: > > > >I've had good success with retrofit toilet flappers when coupled with > >an > >annual tank cleaning and toilet tuneup. The tuneup is critical to > >minimize > >water useage and optimize flushing action. After cleaning the tank and > >valves, I renew the ballcock washers, replace the flapper with an > >adjustable flapper (two types are referenced below), raise the water > >level > >to within 10 cm of the overflow, adjust the flapper to provide just > >enough > >water to produce a siphon break (one or two gurgles), then rod out and > >resize (if necessary) the diverter orifice to fill the bowl to the > >weir > >level without overflow. Material cost about 10 USD. > > > >On my old Kohler Wellworth 3.5 GPF toilets, this procedure saved about > >1 > >GPF (or more if the ballcock washers were abraded), virtually > >eliminated > >occasional double flushing, and reduced bowl cleaning frequency. > > > >Frugal Flush by Frugal Technologies is a retrofit toilet flapper with > >adjustable air-bleed holes. A diagram of this device is at: > >http://www.cadvision.com/Home_Pages/accounts/yeungk/fflush.htm > > > >Float-A-Flapper and Water Mizer from American Water and Energy Savers, > >Inc. > >are retrofit toilet flappers with adjustable floats. Details at: > >http://www.americanwater.com/awesflap.html > > > >These devices can also be used to increase the GPF rate on some 1.6 > >GPF > >toilets to reduce or eliminate double flushing (justification: 1 x 2.4 > >GPF > >is less than 2 x 1.6 GPF) > > > >About 10 years ago, several Swedish factory-crafted homes assembled in > >the > >USA contained a Swedish Water Saving System (WSS), also known as the > >One > >Gallon System, to flush toilets with as little as 2 liters of water. > >This > >WSS uses a flow-increasing accumulator/booster to eliminate blockage > >in > >horizontal waste pipes by batching and discharging at velocities > >exceeding > >applicable code-specified minimum flow rates. > > > >Detailed information on this technology is available on the WISA > >Sanitary > >Technology website at: http://www.wisa-sanitair.com/eng/index.html > > > >Another low flow approach slurried the waste to prevent blockage. The > >Fluidizer Toilet by Control Fluidics contains a blender device that > >liquefies solid waste and toilet paper for a 2 liter flush. This > >toilet was > >used in the Advanced Houses Green Home in Waterloo, Ontario and is > >described at: > >http://www.apsc.com/power/esh/LFTGBath.asp > > > >Dennis Wilson > >Pullman, WA > > > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 24 14:44:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13603 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:44:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20115; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:34:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:28:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19324 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:28:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19304 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:28:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p16.ltec.net [206.158.213.26]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA23384 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:14:52 -0600 Message-ID: <3517F8F4.9ECE3E09@navix.net> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:18:29 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: submersible water well pump wanted References: <199803221439.HAA22966@rgfn.epcc.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2713 Dear John, I had some responses from some friends about your submersible well pump so I copied them here for you.... Hope it helps. Elwin (from Alamagordo) wrote: >I get my well pumps for Sears when I need one. He could contact a well >driller, but it cost him more. >Elwin ---------------------------------------- And this is a friend from El Paso who is still the treasurer for the El Paso Solar Energy Association. I used to serve on the Board of Directors with him there until I moved. His view on the well pump issue is obviously from a solar photovoltaic standpoint: Hector L Gasquet wrote: > > > >Dear Sharon, > > The best answer for him is to reach Mr.Dankoff.He has been in the solar > pumping business for a long time (1983). He can be reached by e-mail. His > address is : pumps@danksolar.com. If he fails, his name and address are: > > Mr Dankoff > 100 Ricardo Rd. > Santa Fe, NM 87501 > > His fax # is 1-505 8203168. His phone # 1-505-8206611. > > When you use solar pumping you are aiming for low pumping volumes, to > lower the costs of the pump and the PVs. If he has electrical power, then > a 12o or 200VAC pump will solve the problem. From the technical > literature I have there is a 6000 Series, that works with PVs, that will > go 100' and give him the 12G/m, but is close to its limit. > If he can, is always better to pump less, and store. Of course, if his > volume doesn't change from day to day, then he cannot have that approach. > Good luck. Please let me know how he made it. I translated, for free, a > book on solar pumping for Mr. Dankoff, so, may be he remembers my name, > if John mentioned ir. > > > > > -- > > The Sun is always ready for you > The El Paso Solar Energy Association > http://www.epsea.org I'll send more later provided I receive anymore responses from folks. I know you'll enjoy living up near Ruidoso. It's a bit different from Prescott, but it's still in the southwest. One of my favorite things to do after a long day sandboarding down the dunes at WhiteSands Nat. Monument is to go to the AllSup's at the far end of town in Alamagordo and buy a refreshing drink of locally made apple juice. It's natural and cloudy, and it's the best darn juice you'll ever taste- tastes like fresh apples instead of boiled down, reconstituted, and otherwise overly processed apple leftovers! You can buy it in the refrigerated section in small, square but tall, plastic containers if they still carry it. Delicious! Sharon gs11531@navix.net 402-545-2109 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 24 16:17:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA16183 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25604; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:07:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:01:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA25211 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:01:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA25206 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:01:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA16459 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:07:58 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3517F8F4.9ECE3E09@navix.net> References: <199803221439.HAA22966@rgfn.epcc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:03:17 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: gen comment on well pumps Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2714 98.03.24 1600est Sears & WW Grainger sell them, yes. But I would check distributors (local supply houses) and if appl, with a tradesman, who may offer better deals due to their discounts on volume. Though John may feel comfy installing a pump 120 down, I do not, so I stick with the guy who comes with his fully equiped truck late at night when my restaurant needs him to fix what he installed. :) jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 24 16:57:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA16689 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA27712; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:47:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:41:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA27265 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:41:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27256 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:41:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA19813 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:47:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 16:47:47 EST From: John Straube Reply-To: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Fire Flashovers and EE To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199803220700.CAA07912@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2715 I think the learning channel might need a bit more expert advice. I too am no expert in this area, but I have some experience. My parents had a fire in the upstairs of their steel-roofed 100 year old wood plank farmhouse a few years ago. The fire fighter who climbed the ladder to break the window was blown off his ladder into the snow when the broken window provided the oxygen for flashover. He was uninjured, athough a bit startled. The house is leaky as a sieve, with, at that time, 50 year old windows. The bedroom had been my old bedroom and you could feel wind blowing in on a windy day. The chief said that the steel roof prevented burnthrough, and promoted the stagnant conditions. Although their was flashover, the firmen were there and quickly brought the flames under control with a minimum of damage. If the roof had not held the fire in, a "chimney" would have formed and the house likely burned down before the firemen got there. The amount of oxygen being provided by leaky houses versus tight houses seems pretty insignicant compared to the oxygen that must be provided to sustain serious combusion. These are numbers I can calculate with some confidence. To me it seems that TLC is doing what many do -- knocking energy-efficient tight housing, not because it is inherently bad, but because we all know many bad examples. Built properly, I see no greater problems with EE than energy hog housing. I would emphasize the use of non-combustible finishes before i worried much about providing a leaky house. > From: Harry Rector > Subject: GBlist: Strange Outcomes for Energy Efficiency > The Learning Channel ran a show last night on "new" fire fighting > techniques related to flashover conditions. I had seen it before, but only > noticed this time their statements regarding energy efficiency. The > flashover scenario is set up from oxygen-starved conditions in a sealed ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 24 17:27:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA17391 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:27:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA29287; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:18:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:12:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA28913 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28907 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 17:11:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from alee (pdx55-i48-37.teleport.com [204.202.166.243]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA28457; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:18:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <351830B8.318A@teleport.com> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 14:16:24 -0800 From: A Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Fire Flashovers and EE References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2716 John Straube wrote: > > I think the learning channel might need a bit more expert advice. I too > am no expert in this area, but I have some experience. My parents had a > fire in the upstairs of their steel-roofed 100 year old wood plank > farmhouse a few years ago. > > The fire fighter who climbed the ladder to break the window was blown off > his ladder into the snow when the broken window provided the oxygen for > flashover. He was uninjured, athough a bit startled. The house is leaky > as a sieve, with, at that time, 50 year old windows. The bedroom had been > my old bedroom and you could feel wind blowing in on a windy day. > > The chief said that the steel roof prevented burnthrough, and promoted > the stagnant conditions. Although their was flashover, the firmen were > there and quickly brought the flames under control with a minimum of > damage. If the roof had not held the fire in, a "chimney" would have > formed and the house likely burned down before the firemen got there. > > The amount of oxygen being provided by leaky houses versus tight houses > seems pretty insignicant compared to the oxygen that must be provided to > sustain serious combusion. These are numbers I can calculate with some > confidence. To me it seems that TLC is doing what many do -- knocking > energy-efficient tight housing, not because it is inherently bad, but > because we all know many bad examples. Built properly, I see no greater > problems with EE than energy hog housing. > > I would emphasize the use of non-combustible finishes before i worried > much about providing a leaky house. > > > From: Harry Rector > > Subject: GBlist: Strange Outcomes for Energy Efficiency > > The Learning Channel ran a show last night on "new" fire fighting > > techniques related to flashover conditions. I had seen it before, but only > > noticed this time their statements regarding energy efficiency. The > > flashover scenario is set up from oxygen-starved conditions in a sealed > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube > Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group > University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg > Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 > UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 > Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 > x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ Tight houses can have benefits in this area too. I was told by someone in the manufactured housing industry that one of their new, very tight homes had a fire in it started by one of those energy hog halogen torchieres that was knocked over onto the sofa. When the owners came home they found the sofa had started burning, but had self-extinguished because of lack of oxygen. Maybe they can market them as self-extinguishing homes. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 24 18:41:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA18872 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:41:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03091; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:32:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:25:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02575 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:25:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02570 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mnsinc.com (a0050.culpeper.mns.net [206.239.106.82]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA24613 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:32:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35186CD0.3960A162@mnsinc.com> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 18:32:49 -0800 From: khassan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Flashover Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2717 I am no "expert" but I do have real world experience with flashovers (firefighter/fire investigator). I didn't see the program in question so I don't know the context in which the statement was made. The flashovers that I experienced as a firefighter and those that I investigated were, for the most part, if not entirely in buildings that were very leaky. I would think that the time would have been better spent encouraging/promoting the installation of residential sprinkler systems and reducing the quantity of combustible materials in the structure. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 25 00:37:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA24405 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:37:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA16445; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:28:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:16:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA15813 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:15:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15797 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:15:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from DEFAULT (xyp106p11.ltec.net [206.158.213.21]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA22662 for ; Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:03:55 -0600 Message-ID: <3518AC76.6C5F@navix.net> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:04:22 -0800 From: gerald martin Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net Organization: Eby-Martin Enterprises X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-Navix (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: wastewater treatment Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2718 David Del Porto, To you because I have heard you called a "wastewater treatment guru" or anyone else out there who can answer this... Do you know how to treat wastewater with fish culture? I've heard of ponds that use fish to "eat up" the sludge properties and clean the water; and the fish are also supposed to be edible??? Know anything about this? Also, if anyone knows how or where to get human composted waste tested to see if it's "safe from pathogens" for gardens (if one is unsure how aged the compost is, or if you're running an experiment, let's say, with solar pasteurization or the like). Thanks in advance, Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net 402-545-2109 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 25 09:52:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA05436 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:52:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04331; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:42:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:36:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03827 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:36:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03823 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:36:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.4] (iplink4.crocker.com [205.246.4.4]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA20886 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:03:27 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 09:48:34 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: 3/4 inch thick fiber cement siding Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2719 Jane, See if Plycem are still in business Plycem Corporation Tech Info source Bob Cauley @ U.S. Plycem 1-800-627-4661 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 25 10:17:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06096 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:17:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06600; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:08:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:02:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05810 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:02:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05798 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:02:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA28140; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 07:07:46 -0800 Message-ID: <35191D28.F91F197F@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 07:05:12 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dfugler@cmhc-schl.gc.ca, "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Re: Radon References: <35190CC9.3451@cmhc-schl.gc.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2720 Hi Don I put the Radon comment out for discussion of some of the conflicts in the health data. Most of the available studies like the CMHC one base their health effects information on findings from miners studies extrapolated to the general public along with information known about total exposures, etc. The conflict as I understand it arises from studies done on cancer rates in high radon areas which showed a statistical decrease in cancer rates not an increase. Added to that is information on potential immunizing benefits of natural low level radiation exposures. I'm not advocating this as a position, I generally like to err on the side of caution but I am interested in the information especially when contrasted with the amount of resources being dedicated to radon remediation. As I mentioned in the post to Rob there are many more directly associated health risks within an indoor environment including sources of radiation that are not pursued as vigorously as radon. My projects have been detailed to not exacerbate radon entry using careful ground seals but make use of a large base of regional material potentially high in radon so I'm concerned about the quality of information out there. I'm going to post this on the GBlist hopefully someone might have some current information. Best John Don Fugler wrote: > Sorry, John, if I am coming in late on this radon conversation. CMHC > has a decent new book on radon, including health risks, remediation, > measurement, etc. You can get it from: chic@cmhc-schl.gc.ca > > Don Fugler > CMHC ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 25 12:01:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08626 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:01:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12915; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:46:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12237 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:46:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from AICS.NET (aics.net [209.21.198.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12233 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 11:46:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.21.198.40] ([209.21.198.40]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 8803600 ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:01:26 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:03:09 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: Aquaculture, ww treatment, compost/pathogens Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2721 Sharon Eby-Martin wrote: To you because I have heard you called a "wastewater treatment guru" or anyone else out there who can answer this... Do you know how to treat wastewater with fish culture? I've heard of ponds that use fish to "eat up" the sludge properties and clean the water; and the fish are also supposed to be edible??? Know anything about this? Also, if anyone knows how or where to get human composted waste tested to see if it's "safe from pathogens" for gardens (if one is unsure how aged the compost is, or if you're running an experiment, let's say, with solar pasteurization or the like). -------------------------------------- There's a rich history of integrated agriculture and waste management systems. Best examples are in Indonesia, where animal manures go into ponds, and the nutrients foster the rapid growth of algae. Fish, such as tilapia and carp, eat the plant matter, and the fish are harvested. There is always a high probability of pathogens and toxins in the fish as a result of being in this environment. Diseases, such as leptospirosis and pfeisteria, are big problems. The research that you refer to in the U.S. was originally conducted at the New Alchemy Institute; it involved growing tilapia in translucent silos, as the tilapia are known to eat algae as their energy source. But the algae were fed pathogen-free nutrients, not sewage. (web search: John Todd, Living Technologies, Bio-Shelters) On the other matter, any local lab that can test for fecal coliform, viruses and heavy metals, such as lead, will be able to determine if the compost is safe. The key is, is the compost "done"? That is measured by a device called a respirometer. From a practical point, we don't recommend using composted human excrement on vegetable crops, because of the risk of contamination. Rather, use it on orchard crops, ornamentals, or fiber crops. David Del Porto Sustainable Strategies Ecological Engineering, Planning and Design 152 Commonwealth Avenue Concord, Massachusetts USA 01742-2968 Phone/Voice-mail: 978 369 9440 Fax/Telecopier: 978 369 2484 Web site: www.ecological-engineering.com E-mail: sustainable@aics.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 25 15:46:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17239 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:46:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26392; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:37:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:31:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26014 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:30:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26010 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:30:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA00341 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 15:35:49 -0500 Message-id: <2713795@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 25 Mar 98 15:44:00 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Water heaters To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2722 Any opinions about state-of-the art sealed combustion gas water heaters? I've used Polaris - very expensive, very efficient, stainless steel tank. What else is out there that is better than the typical glass-lined tank-type heater? Thanks Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 25 17:30:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA19773 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:30:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05237; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:20:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:14:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04732 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:14:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04725 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:14:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id OQTMa08408; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:20:12 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO Message-ID: <9f0f23dd.3519831e@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:20:12 EST To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Water heaters Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2723 I pulled out my State catalog. They have a direct-vent series (40, 50, and 75 gallons), but it's limited to 4' venting runs. I have not used it myself, but am very interested to hear other responses to your question. I am particularly interested to hear about affordable, smaller (eg. 30 gallon), and longer vent heaters, with which people have had good experience. GAMA (Gas Appliance Manufacturer's Association) publishes a good directory which has water heaters less than 75000 Btu/hr. The directory sells for $5. It's available from Inchcape Testing, which administers the directory for GAMA I believe, at 607 758 6216. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering Please note our new address: 108 South Albany Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX "Technology As If The Earth Matters" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 25 18:25:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA20949 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:25:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08003; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:15:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:10:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA07615 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:10:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA07609 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:10:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip71.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.71]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA04631; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:16:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980325232552.0070880c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:25:52 -0500 To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Water heaters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2724 At 03:44 PM 3/25/1998 EST, Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: >Any opinions about state-of-the art sealed combustion gas water heaters? I've >used Polaris - very expensive, very efficient, stainless steel tank ... Interesting - I've been about to question the list on this very matter & just got local prices (Long Island, NY) for the Polaris 50g @ $1753 and 34g @ $1575. Since most of my builders are putting in an atmospheric boiler AND a gas fired hot water tank, they don't seem too off the wall. Ian - I looked in my (old) GAMA book & don't see the State direct vent much above a .61 Energy Factor - nor do I see the Polaris in my GAMA book, although Polaris literature says .94 EF !!! If anyone has install costs for 'an atmospheric boiler AND a gas fired hot water tank', I'd love to see them. I'll probaly multiply by 2 - our HVAC guys are getting $2,500-3,500 per ton for new construction air-to-air AC systems. What else to save heating & DHW system costs in new construction ?? best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 25 21:57:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA25874 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:57:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16877; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:48:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:41:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16454 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:41:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16450 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:41:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA83136; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:46:44 -0700 Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 19:46:44 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Gordon Howell , Sandra Niessen , Greg Allen Subject: GBlist: Solar Breeder Contract In-Reply-To: <9f0f23dd.3519831e@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2725 In an effort to write an innovative power contract that will enshrine: 1) rewards for conservation efforts to lower pricing 2) a high front end price for clean green energy supply from PV elsewhere (to reflect true costs) 3) tradable emission trading in the form of rebates 4) environmental credits (ie.oxygen saved from NOT combusting coal for electricity) 5) incentives to perpetuate independent power production (ie. PV) I am looking for the best sources of updated costs (net benefit analysis) for the above. What is a Kg of avoided CO2 worth? What is the consensus for "Greenhouse Gases" (ie. CO, CO2, SO2, NOX, VOC, CH4, PM-10 or PM2.5, etc.?). Any constructive suggestions welcomed. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 25 22:54:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA26943 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:54:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA20034; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:45:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:39:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19357 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:39:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from slic.com (buzz.slic.com [206.25.233.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19347 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:39:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from barkeatr.slic.com (bombay-tty10.slic.com [206.150.84.74]) by slic.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.0) with SMTP id WAA07283 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:56:16 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: "Barkeater Design Co." From: "Barkeater Design Co." To: Subject: GBlist: Low VOC carpet Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:33:28 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd5881$168e6c60$4a5496ce@barkeatr.slic.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01BD583E.086B2C60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2726 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BD583E.086B2C60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Im working on an medical office remodel and was looking for some = suppliers of carpets that dont offgass anyone know of any? Tim McCarthy, Architect/Builder 35 Wellington St.=20 Malone NY 12953 http://www.slic.com/~barkeatr/ ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BD583E.086B2C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Im working on an medical office = remodel and was=20 looking for some suppliers of carpets that dont offgass anyone know of=20 any?
 
Tim McCarthy, = Architect/Builder
35 Wellington=20 St.
Malone NY 12953
http://www.slic.com/~barkeatr/
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BD583E.086B2C60-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 25 23:08:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA27394 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:08:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA20858; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:58:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:52:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA20368 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:52:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20364 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:52:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.106.76] (usrts3p76.port.net [207.237.106.76]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA10370 for ; Wed, 25 Mar 1998 22:59:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803260359.WAA10370@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Water heaters Date: Wed, 25 Mar 98 23:01:29 -0000 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2727 >Any opinions about state-of-the art sealed combustion gas water heaters? Marc I don't have an opinion on this heater but Energy Design Update wrote it up favorably in July 96. The Heat Transfer Products, Inc. 'Voyager' is a combi heater with .95 efficiency. I believe they also do non-combi models.. Best Clarence ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 26 08:05:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA10483 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:05:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA06689; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:55:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:49:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA06400 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:49:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA06396 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:49:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id HAA01561 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:54:09 -0500 Message-id: <2721209@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 26 Mar 98 08:02:21 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Water heaters To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2728 --- You wrote: Ian - I looked in my (old) GAMA book & don't see the State direct vent much above a .61 Energy Factor - nor do I see the Polaris in my GAMA book, although Polaris literature says .94 EF !!! --- end of quote --- The 94% is combustion efficiency. Energy factor takes into account combustion efficiency and tank losses. My recollection is that Polaris is above 0.80. BTW - other very high efficiency gas water heaters I had literature on are off the market - Integra, Amtrol HP-41, Marathon gas unit. So I'm looking for comparables to the Polaris, in the sense that it would NOT have a glass-lined tank (durability), would be high efficiency and sealed combustion. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 26 08:11:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA10619 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:11:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07015; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:01:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:56:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA06702 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:55:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA06693 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:55:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.7] (blf7.acadia.net [205.217.217.7]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA29414 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:02:37 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:03:17 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Aquaculture, ww treatment, compost/pathogens Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2729 I'd like to second David Del Porto's cautions against using composted human manure on food crops. There can be a difference between composted human manure and sewerage treatment plant compost (Milorganite, etc.), but both carry risks, especially if not tested for heavy metals, pathogens, etc. The reason I feel strongly about this is because of a reported statistical correlation between sewerage treatment plant compost and Amytrophic Lateral Sclerosis, commonly known as Lou Gehrig's Disease. My mother, who was a heavy user of Milorganite, died of ALS. So did the lady across the street from where I grew up - also a heavy user of Milorganite. To be fair, there's next to nothing known about the causes of ALS, but if you've ever seen someone you love die the way my Mom died, you wouldn't want to put anyone at risk of this disease. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 26 08:48:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA11644 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:48:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08419; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:39:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:33:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA08113 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:33:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08109 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:33:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA44974; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 06:38:52 -0700 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 06:38:52 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Re: Solar Breeder Contract In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2730 I did not see this message appear on the listserve, so I send it again. Sorry if it appeared twice. Jorg Ostrowski _________________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > In an effort to write an innovative power contract that will enshrine: > 1) rewards for conservation efforts to lower pricing > 2) a high front end price for clean green energy supply from PV elsewhere > (to reflect true costs) > 3) tradable emission trading in the form of rebates > 4) environmental credits (ie.oxygen saved from NOT combusting coal for > electricity) > 5) incentives to perpetuate independent power production (ie. PV) > > I am looking for the best sources of updated costs (net benefit analysis) for > the above. What is a Kg of avoided CO2 worth? What is the consensus for > "Greenhouse Gases" (ie. CO, CO2, SO2, NOX, VOC, CH4, PM-10 or PM2.5, etc.?). > Any constructive suggestions welcomed. > ***************************************************************************** > Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. > - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > - college campus and office tower recofit under construction > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 > Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > ######################################################### > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 26 09:04:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12090 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:04:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09186; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:55:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:49:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA08763 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:49:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from amethyst.adlittle.com (amethyst.adlittle.com [161.22.2.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08759 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:49:18 -0500 (EST) From: barbour.edward@adlittle.com Received: from ccMail by amethyst.adlittle.com (IMA Internet Exchange 3.0 Enterprise) id 00022FEF; Thu, 26 Mar 98 08:50:54 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:47:43 -0500 Message-ID: <00022FEF.eval@adlittle.com> Subject: Re: GBlist: Water heaters Cc: Greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2731 Both the Polaris (American water heaters, Johnson City TN) and Voyager (Heat Transfer Products, East Freetown MA) are condensing water heaters, with EFs of 0.86. However, since both have inputs higher than 75,000 Btu, they are not required to be labeled by DOE, which may be why they are not listed in the GAMA directory, although I know the Polaris was listed at one time. Any efficiency listed in the 90s is the recovery effiency. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 26 09:10:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12290 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:10:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09595; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:00:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:55:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09085 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:54:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09079 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:54:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4BYWa22227 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:00:35 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl Message-ID: <931171d2.351a5f85@aol.com> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:00:35 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Water heaters Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 82 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2732 On Wed, 25 Mar 1998 17:20:12 EST IMSHAPIRO wrote >>I pulled out my State catalog. They have a direct-vent series (40, 50, and 75 gallons), but it's limited to 4' venting runs. I have not used it myself, but am very interested to hear other responses to your question. I am particularly interested to hear about affordable, smaller (eg. 30 gallon), and longer vent heaters, with which people have had good experience. Ian, I just want to testify: I have a 50 gal. States propane (upsized for a heating loop to my air handler/HRV ) I have one complaint: Thermostat seems to be too insensitive to the temperature of the water. I called the factory and they tell me it's within spec, but at the very low end. Of course it's an off the shelf from another manufacturer, so I guess it's luck of the draw. I could spend the $120 to replace it but there are no guarantees I'll get one substantially better. Certainly direct vent is much to be preferred over forced venting which is noisy and usually not decoupled anyway. Otherwise, what's to complain about?, it heats water, sits quietly in my basement and burns propane. Nine years no problems. Email me in another nine and we'll see. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc, Contractors Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 26 09:35:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13113 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:34:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11383; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:25:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:19:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10697 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:19:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10693 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (san2asc1-16.flash.net [209.30.152.16]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06034 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:26:03 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <351A67F4.B60C3ED8@flash.net> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:36:36 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Orientation Issue ( L.Stivers version)] References: <2232832@lyme.valley.net> <34E78785.81CD0651@flash.net> <19980216.143629.3654.4.sbtauto@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2733 sbtauto@juno.com wrote: > In some parts of the country (South) it would be preferable to have a > closed, well insulated wall facing the South and West and an open face to > the North or East. > > Steve Shepard > SBT Automation > 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 > sbtauto@juno.com > http://www.lore.net/~sbt > > >On the same thread, but with the choke set for a wider pattern, I'm > >continually > >amazed at the number of subdivisions that are planned out with > >absolutely no > >regard for solar orientation. A windowless wall might > >face south with evergreens planted on the south side and disiduous > >trees on the > >north. The saddest part (and the primary reason the developers can > >get away with > >it) is that most homebuyers don't have a clue that it makes any > >difference! > Steve, My apologies for such a late response (or conversely, for responding at all to such an old thread). I just moved (rented truck and lots of sweat) to a new home in San Antonio. Amidst a sea of boxes, I'm finally back online. Your point in this thread is well taken regarding the differing solar orientation in the south. You're reinforcing the point that a wise builder considers solar orientation when planning, even if the final use is somewhat reversed from that of our listmembers in the North. My amazement (and general disgust) is with those developers who lay out a subdivision with absolutely no regard to solar orientation of the individual houses. Their ONLY intent in subdivision layout is to maximize immediate profits. Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 26 10:05:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14318 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:05:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13457; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:56:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:50:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12944 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from state.nd.us (state.nd.us [165.234.92.145]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12937 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:50:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803261450.JAA12937@solstice.crest.org> Received: by state.nd.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:49:40 -0600 From: "DeBaillie, Lee P." To: ",GreenBuilding Listserver " , ",Jorg D. Ostrowski " Cc: ",Gordon Howell " , ",Sandra Niessen " , ",Greg Allen " Subject: GBlist: RE: Solar Breeder Contract Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:50:00 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2734 Jorg, You wrote: ****** I am looking for the best sources of updated costs (net benefit analysis) for the above. What is a Kg of avoided CO2 worth? What is the consensus for "Greenhouse Gases" (ie. CO, CO2, SO2, NOX, VOC, CH4, PM-10 or PM2.5, etc.?). Any constructive suggestions welcomed. ******** Try the website: http://www.me3.org/projects/costs/ while somewhat specific to Minnesota, it does contain many other useful externality links. I assume you're familiar with the Pace University study? I believe it's getting somewhat outdated. The only citation I have for it is: "Environmental Costs of Electricity, Pace University for Environmental Legal Studies, 1990". I would appreciate hearing of any other good studies you find. Lee DeBaillie State Energy Conservation Engineer North Dakota ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 26 10:32:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15280 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:32:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15166; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:22:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:17:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14669 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:16:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14664 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:16:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27876; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:21:16 -0700 Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:21:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "DeBaillie, Lee P." Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Solar Breeder Contract In-Reply-To: <199803261450.JAA12937@solstice.crest.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2735 Lee: Thanks for your efforts. I do have the 1990 Pace study as my main reference. But I am looking for more up-to-date work. Is any company buying tradable emissions today? Jorg _______________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, DeBaillie, Lee P. wrote: > ****** > I am looking for the best sources of updated costs (net benefit > analysis) for the above. What is a Kg of avoided CO2 worth? What is > > the consensus for "Greenhouse Gases" (ie. CO, CO2, SO2, NOX, VOC, CH4, > PM-10 or PM2.5, etc.?). Any constructive suggestions welcomed. > ******** > > Try the website: http://www.me3.org/projects/costs/ > while somewhat specific to Minnesota, it does contain many other > useful externality links. I assume you're familiar with the Pace > University study? I believe it's getting somewhat outdated. The > only > citation I have for it is: "Environmental Costs of Electricity, > Pace > University for Environmental Legal Studies, 1990". I would > appreciate > hearing of any other good studies you find. > > Lee DeBaillie > State Energy Conservation Engineer > North Dakota > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 26 10:35:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15403 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:35:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15510; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:26:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:21:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14933 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:20:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14926 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4KJDa10381 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:26:44 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO Message-ID: <5b9c8dee.351a73b7@aol.com> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:26:44 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Auto air cleaners Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2736 A friend has asked me about air cleaners available for cars (e.g. plug-into- lighter). Any thoughts? I found one for $200 (Autoaire II) in a 1992 catalog from an allergy mail order outfit - "two three stage filters... chemical filter which absorbs odors... particle filter... da da da..." My friend says he has heard of one available for $100. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering Please note our new address: 108 South Albany Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 26 10:41:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15572 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:41:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16115; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:32:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:26:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15465 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:26:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from cc00ms.unity.ncsu.edu (cc00ms.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15457 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:26:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from slrcenter11 (slrcenter9.mck.ncsu.edu [152.1.166.156]) by cc00ms.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/US19Dec96) with SMTP id KAA14677 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:32:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19980326153255.013407dc@pop-in.ncsu.edu> X-Sender: schr@pop-in.ncsu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:32:55 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Henry Rogers Subject: Re: GBlist: Solar Breeder Contract Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2737 At 07:46 PM 3/25/98 -0700, Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski wrote: >In an effort to write an innovative power contract that will enshrine: >1) rewards for conservation efforts to lower pricing >2) a high front end price for clean green energy supply from PV elsewhere > (to reflect true costs) >3) tradable emission trading in the form of rebates >4) environmental credits (ie.oxygen saved from NOT combusting coal for > electricity) >5) incentives to perpetuate independent power production (ie. PV) You can find information on incentives for renewable energy (tax credits, grants, loans, industrial incentives, green pricing programs, net metering, etc.) at the Database of State Incentives for Renewable Energy project. The URL is: http://www.ncsc.ncsu.edu/dsire.htm Henry Rogers N.C. Solar Center ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 26 15:33:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA26160 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05237; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:24:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:17:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04544 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:16:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04540 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:16:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p10.ltec.net [206.158.213.20]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA02427 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:01:46 -0600 Message-ID: <351AB503.61F5A283@navix.net> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:05:25 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Aquaculture, ww treatment, compost/pathogens References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2738 David M. Foley wrote: > I'd like to second David Del Porto's cautions against using composted human > manure on food crops. There can be a difference between composted human > manure and sewerage treatment plant compost (Milorganite, etc.), but both > carry risks, especially if not tested for heavy metals, pathogens, etc. >...Amytrophic Lateral >Sclerosis, commonly known as Lou Gehrig's Disease. My mother, who was a >heavy user of Milorganite, died of ALS. So did the lady across the street>from where I grew up - also a heavy user of Milorganite. I tend to agree because of what I've heard in the past about not only the pathogens, but the heavy metals. I had not heard of Milorganite but I understand because of your mom and ALS why you would not even want to take any chances. I agree completely. Sharon gs11531@navix.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 26 15:33:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA26167 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05235; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:24:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:17:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04588 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04584 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:17:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p10.ltec.net [206.158.213.20]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA01595 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:54:19 -0600 Message-ID: <351AB344.263A908E@navix.net> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:57:58 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Aquaculture, ww treatment, compost/pathogens References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2739 David Del Porto wrote: > it involved growing tilapia in translucent silos, as the tilapia are known > to eat algae as > their energy source. But the algae were fed pathogen-free nutrients, not > sewage. Tilapia are the fish native to the mid-east, correct? Aren't they illegal to raise in most parts of the U.S.? I believe there are permits involved. And the pathogen-free nutrients that are for the algae, do you know what that consists of? I am very interested in having a fish pond such as this, and it's good to know that the sewage idea is not good if you're planning on eating the fish. > On the other matter, any local lab that can test for fecal coliform, > viruses and heavy metals, such as lead, will be able to determine if the > compost is safe. The key is, is the compost "done"? That is measured by a > device called a respirometer. From a practical point, we don't recommend > using composted human excrement on vegetable crops, because of the risk of > contamination. Rather, use it on orchard crops, ornamentals, or fiber > crops. I wrote on a thread recently about heavy metals in compost but nobody seemed to think it was a problem, although I'd heard of it being too risky years ago. Could you also tell me about the respirometer and how it works please? This is very interesting. Sharon gs11531@navix.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 26 16:24:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA27819 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:24:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA07823; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:13:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:07:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07417 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:07:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07413 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:07:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip1.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.20]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA163 for ; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:14:01 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980326162540.006b3584@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:25:40 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: GBlist: The Latest In-Reply-To: <351AB503.61F5A283@navix.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2740 Snipped (literally) from the Business Section of today's (3/26/98) Washington Post... ----------------------------------------------- Potomac Electric Power Co. said the Maryland Public Service Commission has approved plans by the utility company to reduce or end several of its conservation programs. Pepco said the programs are no longer cost effective because the same products and services are available elsewhere. ----------------------------------------------- My only comment: Sure the product and services are available elsewhere, but what about the benign pressures to adopt them? Actually, my inclinations towards the energy conservation programs fostered by the utilities was always self-serving. I found that they made it easy to do the right thing by cutting through the administrative fog and making it easy to accomplish. In previous homes that I lived in, I found out early on that they would fill out the forms and arrange easy billing... at a competitive interest rate. Much easier than getting the finance package together on our own for upgrading energy systems of the home you live in. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 27 08:57:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA22446 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:57:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA22457; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:47:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:42:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA22031 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:41:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from m8.sprynet.com (m8.sprynet.com [165.121.1.208]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA22026 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:41:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer (hdn104-008.hil.compuserve.com [206.175.106.8]) by m8.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA16979; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 05:48:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803271348.FAA16979@m8.sprynet.com> From: "Michael Sandahl" To: Cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: computer on/off issue Date: Tue, 24 Mar 1998 09:18:38 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2741 ---------- > From: cneurath@northnet.org > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: computer on/off issue > Date: Saturday, March 21, 1998 9:30 AM > > Malcolm and Sacie have discussed saving energy with computers: > > -------------------------- > > >Hard to believe that anyone concerned about environmental issues could > >walk away from their office knowing their computer would be on all..... > > Sacie and all other computer users on the list, > > I live in a photovoltaic powered house so I am very careful to save > electricity, and I am set up so I can easily determine how much power is > consumed by any load. I use Macs, but I suspect my observations will be..... > .....useful life of a computer even if you turned them on and off 10 times a > day. And, I admit that modern operating systems can take what seems like a > long time to boot up, but I've just adjusted my expectations and I find > something to do for the 60 or 90 seconds ... like find my pencil and paper > notes that hold my really original ideas I want to work on. > > Chris Neurath Yea Chris! While this may seem like an important issue, you summed it very nicely I believe. Just turn the things off when you are done. The hard drive is not going to wear out, especially before you buy another computer able to keep up with todays large programs and growing demands for memory. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 27 09:17:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22938 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23336; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:07:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:03:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23061 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA23057 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:03:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sb19.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.180]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA21132 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:10:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <351BB217.1AA@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:05:11 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Deregulation? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2742 In this mornings NYTIMES I clicked on a banner ad for power deregulation, I found this quote: > To be sure, the public likely will be > asked to pay a hefty premium for > green power for years to come. > Still, a number of polls have > suggested that a significant > percentage of Americans will be > willing to open their pocketbooks, > and recent marketing surveys > suggest that corporations may feel > compelled to do the same in order > to project the sort of public image > that a rapidly growing number of > environmentally conscious > consumers are expected to > demand. and a very long advertisement for deregulation. For those interested in the full ad, here is the url: http://www.nytimes.com/adsupp/energy/energy.html It is quite a thorough treatment of one side of the argument, I would be curious to see what dialogue this might stimulate. On a further and hopefully final note, I apologize for the mispost on the computer issue and I hope we have finally put it to rest. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 27 09:47:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23667 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:47:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24739; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:38:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:34:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24457 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:34:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24453 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:33:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA147874; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:39:13 -0700 Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:39:12 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Chuck Hinckley Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Gordon Howell Subject: GBlist: Deregulations, Green Power, Externalities and Full-Cost Accounting In-Reply-To: <351BB217.1AA@dreamscape.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2743 Chuck: Thank you for your quote from the NY Times re: Green power. This helps our efforts for forge a new type of responsible "Clean Green Power Contract based on sustainability through built-in incentives for conservation, tradable emissions, environmental credits and the perpetuation of independent on-site alternative energy production. MORE INFORMATION OF THIS SORT IS WELCOMED AND HELPFUL. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 27 11:36:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28563 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00364; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:27:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:22:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29900 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:21:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29895 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:21:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from sover.net (usr2a49.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.49]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA19627 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:28:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <351BD263.6F866553@sover.net> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:23:00 -0500 From: Eric Warren X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuild List Subject: GBlist: roof insulation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2744 Hi all, I am fixing up an old post & beam house which was poorly and under-built 130 years ago or so. The owner is on a tight budget and we are just trying to get the place livable again. The problem I am having is that we have ripped the ceiling out of the upstairs to find 6 1/2" rafter depths and no easy venting possibilities (there were gable wall vents but with 3' knee walls there was only about 8' of flat ceiling which was vented above - the rest was just cellulose between the interior plaster and exterior sheathing). The easy solution is to spray in foam, and I understand that FoamTech (nearby) uses a process that is somewhat environmentally friendly, however, that technology is way out of the budget (around $3000 for 750 square feet). Any other ideas for insulating such a small space that doesn't need to be vented, and isn't totally toxic? There isn't much room up there for changing rafter depth without re-doing the roof (it had a 7' ceiling which we'd like to push up to a cathedral). I should mention that the house is in Vermont - so it's sort of an issue... Thanx, Eric Warren (ewarren@sover.net) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 27 12:16:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29843 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02759; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:07:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:03:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02377 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:03:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02369 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:03:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from van-as-08b07.direct.ca (kadulski) [204.174.249.167] by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yIcdW-0001WI-00; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:09:46 -0800 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Water heaters Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 17:02:51 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2745 The Polaris is efficient, but I think they have a flaw in the venting system design. The vent emits a high pitched whine or whistle when operating - especially anoying for neighbours. I've used it in two houses (both were given a high profile), and in both cases neighbours started complaining. It's not a question of installation, because the installers did all the adjustments in the installation manual, etc. I have heard from other sources they had similar experiences. Without explicitly stating so, the manufacturer indicated that it was the system design. A most unfortunate design flaw for a good concept. I just wish the designers would take these factors into account, not just the combustion efficiency. ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seymour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 27 12:33:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00298 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:33:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04055; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:24:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:20:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03734 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:20:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.vcr.istar.ca (mail.vcr.istar.ca [204.191.152.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03730 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:20:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ts8-12.vcr.istar.ca (itheaker) [204.191.155.123] by mail.vcr.istar.ca with smtp (Exim 1.80 #5) id 0yIcuJ-0000LG-00; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:27:08 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980327092714.006d2fd4@wimsey.com> X-Sender: igt@wimsey.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:27:14 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "I.G. Theaker" Subject: Re: GBlist: Aquaculture In-Reply-To: <199803270700.CAA09086@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2746 For those following the aquaculture thread, the Center for Regenerative Studies at Cal Polytechnic University at Pomona has a fairly extensive aquaculture research facility, with six ponds fed by reclaimed agricultural water, cascading into a constructed wetland. They raise tilapia, carp, and catfish - and a bumper crop of water hyacinths, which seem to thrive on the high nitrate content of the reclaimed water. The Center was built in 1995 or so, and should be producing research results by now. The aquaculture facility is being run by the student/residents with the guidance of Prof. Barry Costa-Pierce, who worked with the New Alchemists in New England. Their aquaculture bumf (mostly graphics & summaries) is at http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~crs/aquacul/aqua.htm The Centre for Regenerative Studies is a *very* interesting facility for many reasons: it's the only N. American attempt I've seen to integrate energy efficiency, renewable energy, food production, and aquaculture into an educational facility run by resident students. The best source for understanding its genesis, and an excellent document in its own right, is 'Regenerative Design for Sustainable Development' by John Lyle (ISBN 0-471-17843-8). The CRS has a web site: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~crs/index.html Good luck, and happy fish-farming, Ian Theaker > >Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:57:58 -0600 >From: GERRY MARTIN >Subject: Re: GBlist: Aquaculture, ww treatment, compost/pathogens > > David Del Porto wrote: > >> it involved growing tilapia in translucent silos, as the tilapia are known >> to eat algae as >> their energy source. But the algae were fed pathogen-free nutrients, not >> sewage. > >Tilapia are the fish native to the mid-east, correct? Aren't they illegal to >raise in most parts of the U.S.? I believe there are permits involved. And >the pathogen-free nutrients that are for the algae, do you know what that >consists of? I am very interested in having a fish pond such as this, and >it's good to know that the sewage idea is not good if you're planning on >eating the fish. > - -- --- ----- -------- ------------- --------------------- ---------------------------------- Sheltair Scientific Ltd. "Helping create healthy, beautiful and Ste. 2 - 3661 West 4th Ave. ecologically sensitive buildings." Vancouver, BC Canada V6R 1P2 fax: (604) 732-9238 email: igt@wimsey.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 27 13:07:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01233 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:07:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06399; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:57:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:53:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05919 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:53:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (root@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.253.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05906 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:53:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.dcn.davis.ca.us (usr4-d33.cwnet.com [209.21.20.177]) by wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.8.5/DCN8.8.1) with SMTP id JAA03436; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:59:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:59:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803271759.JAA03436@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us> X-Sender: lirainer@dcn.davis.ca.us X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Leo Rainer Subject: Re: GBlist: Water heaters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2747 At 03:44 PM 3/25/98 EST, Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: >Any opinions about state-of-the art sealed combustion gas water heaters? I've >used Polaris - very expensive, very efficient, stainless steel tank. What else >is out there that is better than the typical glass-lined tank-type heater? We have specified both the Polaris and the Voyager water heaters, mostly for combined hydronic heating with good results. The Polaris's have been quite reliable so far but it's still to soon to tell with the Voyagers. I just received a cut sheet on a new fully condensing instantaneous water heater manufactured by TARGA Energy Company. They claim 96% combustion efficiency, modulating output of 35-150 kBtu/hr, and water flow to 5 gpm. It is power vented but NOT sealed combustion. It can, however, be mounted outdoors. Might be worth a look. Targa Energy Company 14830 Alondra Blvd. La Mirada, CA 90638 Tel (714) 228-6575 Fax (714) 228-6576 www.targaenergy.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Leo Rainer Email: lirainer@davisenergy.com Davis Energy Group Phone: 530.753.1100 123 C Street Fax: 530.753.4125 Davis, CA 95616 Web: http://www.webcom.com/deg/ ============================================================================ Energy Analysis * Mechanical Design * Product Engineering ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 27 13:12:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01341 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:12:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07011; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:03:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:58:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06467 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:58:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from enteract.com (uucp@enteract.com [206.54.252.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06461 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:58:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from gard.com (uucp@localhost) by enteract.com (8.8.8/8.7.6) with UUCP id MAA15528 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:05:06 -0600 (CST) Message-id: From: jglazer@gard.com (Jason Glazer) Organization: GARD Analytics To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:06:18 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: 90.1 Public Review Ends March 30 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2748 The second public review of ASHRAE Standard 90.1 "Energy Standard for Buildings Except Low-Rise Residential Buildings" ends in a few days on March 30. This draft standard will shape the way energy using equipment and systems are designed, constructed and maintained in commercial buildings for the next twenty years. If you have been thinking about how energy standards will affect commercial buildings in the future now is the time to contribute. To download the draft go to: http://204.7.184.20/STANDARDS/pds90men.htm For more information please see: http://www.gard.com/901/ This page includes links to other sites containing the draft standard and model comments. Jason Glazer ===================================================================== Jason Glazer GARD Analytics Inc mailto:jglazer@gard.com Building Energy Simulation List Administrator Consultant to ASHRAE 90.1 HVAC/SWH and ECB http://www.gard.com ph (847) 698 - 5686 fax - 5600 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 27 13:24:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01603 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:24:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08883; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:14:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:10:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08449 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:10:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (root@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.253.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08434 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:10:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.dcn.davis.ca.us (usr4-d30.cwnet.com [209.21.20.174]) by wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.8.5/DCN8.8.1) with SMTP id KAA04427 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:16:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:16:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199803271816.KAA04427@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us> X-Sender: lirainer@dcn.davis.ca.us X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Leo Rainer Subject: Re: GBlist: Water heaters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2749 At 05:02 PM 3/26/98 -0800, Richard Kadulski wrote: >The Polaris is efficient, but I think they have a flaw in the venting >system design. The vent emits a high pitched whine or whistle when >operating - especially anoying for neighbours. Yes, it sounds like a cross between a gas turbine and a large traction motor when starting up. Think Batmobile. We have not had any complaints in our installations but it is definitely something to consider. Were your installations side wall or roof vented? I could see the side vent being more audible to neighbors than a roof vent. I have not had a chance to hear whether the Voyager emits the same sound. ...leo ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Leo Rainer Email: lirainer@davisenergy.com Davis Energy Group Phone: 530.753.1100 123 C Street Fax: 530.753.4125 Davis, CA 95616 Web: http://www.webcom.com/deg/ ============================================================================ Energy Analysis * Mechanical Design * Product Engineering ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 27 13:39:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01961 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:39:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09985; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:30:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:26:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA09518 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:25:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803271825.NAA09518@solstice.crest.org> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:32:33 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: computer on/off issue and thanks Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2750 Yes, I think we are done with this question and just as soon as I finish this my machine goes off and along with it the surge protector through which I now know a bit of computer electricity still moves. Like lots of subjects we occasionally worry to death, its been both interesting and enlightening. It is nice to know that there is a right and wrong to some issues, rather than the namby-pamby-in-between (ie unsubstantiated free thinking!); it seems to me that the purpose of this list is to figure these things out. As an interested party I am most grateful for the good dialogues; much of the information is very useful to me. Certainly the knowledge I derive from this group allows me to put to use ideas and products with considerable more confidence than otherwise would be possible. Thanks, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 27 14:14:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02861 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:14:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12742; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:04:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:00:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12332 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:00:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12322 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:00:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA8-p18.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.210]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA08291 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:07:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <351BF7A1.1ED9@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:01:53 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Aquaculture Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2751 Further to Ian's post, a local (to me) tech college, SUNY Morrisville has an aquaculture program of somewhat less broad scope: http://www.morrisville.edu/pages/aquaculture/ where I found this link to AquaNIC: http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/aquanic/ I don't remember anyone posting this url before, if it was, please excuse the redundency. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 27 14:31:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA03232 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:31:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13525; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:21:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:17:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13204 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:17:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from AICS.NET (aics.net [209.21.198.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13199 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.21.198.45] ([209.21.198.45]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 9253800 ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:32:34 EST X-Sender: sustainable@aics.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:34:15 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: Tilapia, compost on edibles, respirometers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2752 Sharon wrote: Tilapia are the fish native to the mid-east, correct? Aren't they illegal to raise in most parts of the U.S.? I believe there are permits involved. And the pathogen-free nutrients that are for the algae, do you know what that consists of? I am very interested in having a fish pond such as this, and it's good to know that the sewage idea is not good if you're planning on eating the fish. ...I wrote on a thread recently about heavy metals in compost but nobody seemed to think it was a problem, although I'd heard of it being too risky years ago. Could you also tell me about the respirometer and how it works please? This is very interesting. ------------------------------- Tilapia are from Africa, and only survive in warm, low-oxygen water. They are cultured broadly in open ponds in Central America,and more recently in controlled environments in the US, such as greenhouses and BioShelters. You can now buy cultured tilapia in the supermarkets. Pathogen-free nutrients could be fish food or nutrients for algae growth, which the tilapia eat (their gut is able to lyce the algae and use it). While it may be ecologically elegant to say that wastewater can be used to grow food, the fact is that one needs to know in careful detail the constituents of the ww and their ultimate fate (where does it go?). As these chemical cascade through different food chains, they are transformed into the flesh of fish and the tissue of plants. The problem with municipal dehydrated or sewage sludge is not simply the heavy metal content from industrial processes, but the myriad toxic and man-made compounds that combine with other compounds in the sewage treatment process, the fate of which are unknown. I would NEVER use composting combined municipal sewage sludge on any plants on my property lest they end up in the food chain. I would rather use my own composted excrement because I know exactly what went into it--no toxic compounds and heavy metals--on plants that are fed to animals that I eat. Respirometer is a device that measures the amount of oxygen that is taken up by a sample of compost and can also measure the amount of carbon dioxide that is produced. If there is no oxygen taken up and no CO2 produced, then the carbon has been fully oxidized and the compost is stable, i.e., can't support any more biological decomposition. David Del Porto ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 27 14:48:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA03629 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:48:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15793; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:39:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:33:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14643 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:33:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14588; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:33:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA15492; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:39:25 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:59:42 -0500 To: Green building list , Energy Eff Building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Water heaters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2753 >The Polaris [high effic hwh] is efficient, but I think they have a flaw in >the venting >system design. The vent emits a high pitched whine or whistle when ... ---------------- 98.03.27 1250est [I posted this reply to the eeba also, since it relates to that subject as well] I have noted such a sound on both the Trane HE gas furnaces we have (1990 & 1997). The only problem is on the one that is inside our current home, but I have gotten used to it. The lower bill and greater comfort are cotton to my ears. Fortunately, the nearest neighbor out here is far away. It probably relates to the type of motor on the venting fan. Certainly that could be improved. Cost probably looms large since these units cost more anyhow, and mfrs are no doubt concerned with how far they can go b4 consumer demand is affected too much to make the product profitable. And unless the govt is going to subsidize it, it must be profitable or it won't get made. BTW on a recent post, a distinction seemed to be made betw forced & direct venting. Can someone clarify that for me? I am missing something somewhere. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 27 14:49:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA03645 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:49:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15833; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:39:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:34:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14690 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:33:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14673 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:33:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA15558 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 14:40:02 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980327092714.006d2fd4@wimsey.com> References: <199803270700.CAA09086@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 13:02:04 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Aquaculture Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2754 98.03.27 1301est Can someone refer me to online pix of water hyacinths & other pond flora so I can be sure of what is clogging our home 20 wetland? Thanks! jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 27 17:13:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA08290 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:13:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23551; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:04:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:59:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23071 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:59:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23067 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:58:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip41.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.41]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA23370 for ; Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:05:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980327221505.0071c5cc@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 17:15:05 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Water heaters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2755 At 09:59 AM 3/27/1998 -0800, Leo Rainer wrote: >I just received a cut sheet on a new fully condensing instantaneous water >heater manufactured by TARGA Energy Company. They claim 96% combustion >efficiency, modulating output of 35-150 kBtu/hr, and water flow to 5 gpm. >It is power vented but NOT sealed combustion. It can, however, be mounted >outdoors. Might be worth a look. The Targa seems to be just under $1000 (contractor $)is factory preset @ 125.6F, but the chip can be reprogrammed higher. The rep doesn't know the upper limit. They are also developing a boiler using the same technology. My local supply house just gave me price of $2,000+ for a 35g Voyager !!! best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 28 07:05:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA26332 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 07:05:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA14672; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 06:56:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 28 Mar 1998 06:50:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA14253 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 06:50:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803281150.GAA14253@solstice.crest.org> From: "David Keefe" To: "Green building list" Subject: GBlist: Re: Direct venting Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 16:21:39 -0500 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2756 Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA on a recent post, a distinction seemed to be made betw forced & direct > venting. Can someone clarify that for me? I am missing something > somewhere. You're not the only one. It would be nice if we could agree on the meaning of forced venting, power venting, direct venting, sealed combustion, etc -- we haven't seemed to be able to yet. I'm not a heating system expert, but here's my take on it, for whatever it's worth. I used to refer to direct venting as using a fan to push the flue gas out, usually through the wall rather than up a chimney. I'm now convinced this is wrong. I think we should follow the lead of the National Fuel Gas Code, which defines direct vent appliances as "constructed and installed so that all air for combustion is derived directly from the outside atmosphere and all flue gases are discharged to the outside atmosphere". This is the same thing as what some of us are calling "sealed combustion". It usually involves a fan, but not necessarily. Forced venting, or power venting, is when you use a fan to push the flue gases out, but the air for combustion comes from inside. Just to round out the discussion, appliances which use indoor air for combustion and rely on a chimney's draft to get the flue gasses outside (most older systems) are usually called natural draft (or chimney-vented) appliances, and devices which have no provision for sending flue gasses outside are unvented appliances. This would include most gas kitchen stoves. Hope this is helpful. All you experts out there, please speak up if you disagree. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 28 07:05:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA26336 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 07:05:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA14674; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 06:56:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 28 Mar 1998 06:50:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA14263 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 06:50:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803281150.GAA14263@solstice.crest.org> From: bill_c@txinfinet.com Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 15:52:27 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Agriboard and Rvalues Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2757 Hi all, Since I'm the webmaster for Agriboard's site and on the GBList, I passed word on to them of the questions about the Rvalues, which were raised in the January issue of EBN and here on the list. Their response to the editors of EBN follows. We've also posted this on their website (http://www.agriboard.com), and will follow with supporting data as it becomes available. Bill Christensen Sustainable Sources billc@greenbuilder.com To: Alex Wilson, Publisher/Editor Nadav Malin, Editor Environmental Building News Date: March 25, 1998 Re: Thermal Test results on Agriboard Structural Insulated Panels We appreciate your efforts to publish accurate information regarding thermal performance of the Agriboard structural insulated panel. This letter should assist you in communicating the most current accurate information on this product to your readers. In addition to this letter, We are providing you under separate cover, a complete copy of the most recent study which is a 40 page report from Oak Ridge National Laboratory Buildings Technology Center titled "Whole Wall Rating/Label for Agriboard Wall Systems with Double Core Structural Insulated Panels; Steady-State and Dynamic Thermal Analysis" by Jeff Christian et al. This study is our current and what we believe to be our best reference point on the thermal performance of the Agriboard panel. This report was completed by Oak Ridge on January 30, 1998 and received in our office February 3, 1998. The report was reviewed by G.Z Brown, director of Energy Studies in Buildings Laboratory at the University of Washington and Ron Graves, an independent consultant and a thermal analysis engineer who had worked at Oak Ridge National Energy Labs from 1958 to 1995. The written review of that report from G.Z. Brown was dated March 20, 1998. In addition this report has been reviewed by Bob Manning, a technical consultant to Agriboard who is compiling a report on all testing to date. The results of the Oak Ridge National Energy Labs analysis using a dynamic ASTM C 236 hot-box test and finite difference computer modeling (DOE 2.1E) simulation show that the Agriboard "7" core panel has a maximum equivalent performing R-Value of 23.5 given the southwest region centered in Phoenix. G.Z. Brown observed in his comments on the report that "if one uses the upper limit of the (measured) R-value from the tests of 17.79 and multiplies it by the greatest dynamic benefit for massive systems (1.43, Phoenix) then the effective R-value would be 25.44 for this combination of conditions. This maximum result is less than the 28.5 we anticipated but is still a good thermal wall. The expressed Dynamic Benefit for Massive Systems (DBMS) as the report states is a maximum of 1.43 for the cities modeled in the analysis. This 1.43 factor will vary for different climatic conditions and was calculated for six cities in the different climatic regions of the U.S. We will run the program for additional cities shortly. (In order to understand DBMS values please refer the Oak Ridge report, specifically page 16). We started producing Agriboard for testing in April and May of 1997 off of the new mill Raytheon Engineers and Constructors built for us. The mill was 15 months late in delivery by the time it was fully commissioned and signed off. The schedule for our testing program has developed from the schedule for the mill installation as well as the timing related to the funding of our company. The thermal mass tests with Oak Ridge were started in July but we did not receive the results and report or any data what-so-ever until a few weeks ago. I apologize for our tardiness in getting this information to you. It is important that you understand that full testing of the system, and, based on those tests, listing of the product by ICBO and the other model codes agencies (BOCA and the Southern Building Code) have been primary goals of the company from its inception. Progress towards this end has been good but has been a lot slower than we had anticipated, largely because of the costs of the extensive testing program that is required and our funding limitations. We intend to continue testing this panel both structurally and thermally and will make that data available to you as tests are completed, reviewed, and documented. Panels produced in Agriboard's manufacturing plant in Texas have been subjected to a wide range of ASTM tests required for listing by ICBO. The entire program of testing and submittal for listing has been under the review and direction of PFS, an internationally recognized third-party testing and certification company headquartered in Madison, Wisconsin. Fire testing has been conducted by Omega Point Laboratories in Austin, Texas, and thermal performance testing by three companies: Maxim Technologies/Twin Cities Testing Inc. of St. Paul, Minnesota, the Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL), in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, and small scale ASTM C518 rapid k tests at Omega Point Labs. The concern over our stated R-values and our lack of provision of test data that has been at issue in your article and Internet communications is understandable. We have been waiting for the results from the Oak Ridge Lab tests and confirmation of the results from at least two other sources. This data will be available on the Internet or from our office as hard copy. Please note that the history of our estimated R-value prior to these tests were based originally on data from tests on Stramit panels done at Twin City Labs, St. Paul, in 1976. These guarded hot plate tests that were done on 2" panel produced by a Stamit plant that is a similar generic product to Agriboard, showed k factors of .326 to .425 for board between 16# and 18# density. The tests that were performed by Twin Cities Testing Laboratories used the ASTM procedure applicable at the time, C-177-45, which has now been replaced by ASTM C-236 or C-976. Our original estimates for Agriboard were extrapolations from these tests. These extrapolations from the St. Paul tests were used in absence of any other dependable test data until we could build our own mill and thoroughly test our own product. Our original assessment of the thermal performance of this generic product was also based the experience of residents from houses insulated with the Stramit board built in Europe and Canada in the fifties and sixties who told us that the product performs remarkably well. Those testimonials were substantiated by the first houses built in Texas in 1983 and 1984 with a similar system to Agriboard where homeowners also reported to be very happy with the energy efficiency and comfort of their homes. We knew of course that this kind of testimonial had to be substantiated with testing and objective quantitative results. Thermal performance is conventionally taken to mean R-value, a measure of the thermal resistively of the building shell components. There are other very important factors in thermal performance, however. It is generally understood that R-value is only part of the story, especially for a product like the Agriboard panel system, which has tight construction, has very uniform insulation coverage, and in addition has high density and thermal mass. It is clear that tested R-value does not adequately measure or predict the thermal performance of a building shell, particularly when dealing with alternative construction systems that are more dense and have greater thermal mass than conventional stud and fiberglass construction or other light wood-frame systems. In addition to thermal mass, other factors such as tightness, uniformity of insulation, thermal bridging, etc. affect energy performance significantly but are not adequately considered in the standard R-value measurement. We believe the Oak Ridge National Energy Labs and Maxim Technologies testing is minimal and that additional thermal testing is required to expand and substantiate this database. We intend to continue our thermal-testing program with Oak Ridge National Labs and other testing facilities. I welcome your direct inquiries and will provide you with what data we have. Recognizing the limitations of the R-value test method and the criterion itself, we are working with the Oak Ridge National Laboratory and others to develop a test program that will correctly measure our product's R-value as well as its overall thermal performance. ORNL has developed computer models, which are much better indicators of thermal performance of actual buildings than the conventional indicator, which is a "clear-wall" R-value. Information on one of these models, "whole wall R-value methodology" model can be found on their web site: http://www.ornl.gov/roofs+wall We have asked Jeff Christian to make our entire report available on the web and will provide you with that address shortly. There are a few other points from the Oak Ridge Laboratories report that are worth noting. It was found that the Agriboard system loses substantially less energy through thermal bridging than conventional stud framed walls (5% for the Agriboard wall when compared to 10% for a wood framed wall). One indication of reduced thermal bridging in the Agriboard system is a more uniform interior wall surface temperature, since there are not the 16" on center studs used in standard wood frame construction. In addition, the report noted that the internal wall surface provides "thermal comfort benefits minimizing radiation heat loss from occupants sitting near cold exterior wall surfaces." In summary, we believe we have a good thermal product and at the same time recognize that we must carefully quantify the thermal performance of the Agriboard system - a fundamentally different construction technology. To do that we will need to do extensive additional testing, using rigorously controlled test protocols and carefully evaluate the test methodologies and results. That is a high priority for our company. Until further data is available we will reference the tests done by Maxim and Oak Ridge and provide that data as a basis of our estimated R-value. We will be rerunning the computer model based on a few minor corrections that may slightly improve the results. In the meantime, please feel free to contact me directly regarding the test data I have forwarded under separate cover. We will try to keep those interested in Agriboard informed of reliable new thermal performance data when it is available. We hope this will avoid future misunderstandings and fully justify our confidence in this very exciting system and its contribution to more sustainable building technology. Yours truly, Barry Sullivan, President Bill Thompson, VP Marketing Agriboard Industries http://www.agriboard.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 28 07:32:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA26829 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 07:32:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA15370; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 07:23:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 28 Mar 1998 07:17:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA15126 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 07:17:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from becca.gulfaccess.net (root@ns1.gulfaccess.net [209.26.59.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA15121 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 07:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.26.59.50] (nap-pm3-01-40.gulfaccess.net [209.26.59.50]) by becca.gulfaccess.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA05409 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 07:24:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 28 Mar 1998 07:24:50 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199803280700.CAA09151@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Mark Albanese Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #131 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2758 To everybody, I have just purchased a home in southwest Florida which has an unheated pool. Can anybody offer any advice regarding what type of pol heater I should buy. The dealers have suggested the purchase of a electrical heat pump rather than solar. My pool does have a jacuzi. I am hoping to come up with either a purely solar solution or a combination of solar for the main pool and a small heat pump for the jacuzi. Are there more effective solar systems than the thin black grid based systems I see on my neighbors house? Are there any sights on the internet that are good for continued research ? Thanks. Mark Albanese ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 28 17:50:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA11876 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 17:50:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA02522; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 17:40:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 28 Mar 1998 17:34:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA02148 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 17:34:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA02142 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 17:34:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA08924 for ; Sat, 28 Mar 1998 17:39:05 -0500 Message-id: <2749006@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 28 Mar 98 17:47:20 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Direct venting To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2759 I don't disagree, Dave, but manufacturers of gas water heaters seem to use the term direct vent to mean simply that the heater is sidewall vented. They still use indoor air for combustion. So I have tended to teach builders that direct vent does NOT mean sealed combustion necessarily (and that sealed combustion does not mean sidewall vented, either.) Marc Rosenbaum, another non-expert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 29 02:02:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA20985 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 02:02:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA15785; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:52:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:46:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA15430 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:46:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR04 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.160]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA15425 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:46:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from GFX-CH - 153.35.30.188 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:42:44 -0800 Message-ID: <004e01bd58df$37811680$bc1e2399@GFX-CH> From: "carmine vasile" To: "Frazer Dougherty" , , "Marc J. Rosenbaum" Cc: "Warren Hodgdon" , "Tom St. Louis" , "Tim Bernadowski" , "Rolf Butters" , "Rodger Kallu" , "Rick Graham" , "Mike LeBeau" , "Kevin McAuley" , "Ken Ladd" , "Jim Vaughn" , "Jim Carney" , "Frans Plugge" Subject: Re: GBlist: Water heaters Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:47:08 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2760 Hello Frazer: What is the first hour rating of the 50g/34g Polaris Units? Also if you are interested in a less expensive alternative offering the long life offered by stainless steel construction, plus high energy factor, don't overlook a Combination Water Heating System comprised of a 50g Vaughn Stonelined water heater & GFX. The Old Dominion University tests of this combination, which are summarized @ http://oikos.com/gfx/tests.html , yielded: EF: 1.49 to 1.71 Hourly Standby Loss: 178 Btu/hr "First Hour Rating": 180 gal. This "First Hour Rating" is for showering and is about more than double that of a typical gas water heater. Cost to a small Builder for this Combination -System would be about $600 F.O.B. Salisbury, MA, which is about $1100 dollars less than the cost you mentioned for a 50g Polaris water heater. This $1100 first-cost savings, plus: ZERO periodic maintenance cost; Inherent Safety; No point-of-use NOx emissions; NO EF degradation with time; should not be overlooked in new construction when considering the pros & cons of [Electric + GFX] vs. Gas for water heating. Best regards, Carmine >===================================================== >Dr. Carmine Vasile, CEO Voice: 516-758-6271 >WaterFilm Energy Inc. Fax: 516-758-0438 >P.O. Box 48 Email: gfx-ch@msn.com >Oakdale, NY 11769 >===================================================== -----Original Message----- From: Frazer Dougherty To: Marc J. Rosenbaum ; greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wednesday, March 25, 1998 6:20 PM Subject: Re: GBlist: Water heaters >At 03:44 PM 3/25/1998 EST, Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: >>Any opinions about state-of-the art sealed combustion gas water heaters? I've >>used Polaris - very expensive, very efficient, stainless steel tank ... > >Interesting - I've been about to question the list on this very matter & >just got local prices (Long Island, NY) for the Polaris 50g @ $1753 and 34g >@ $1575. Since most of my builders are putting in an atmospheric boiler AND >a gas fired hot water tank, they don't seem too off the wall. > >Ian - I looked in my (old) GAMA book & don't see the State direct vent much >above a .61 Energy Factor - nor do I see the Polaris in my GAMA book, >although Polaris literature says .94 EF !!! > >If anyone has install costs for 'an atmospheric boiler AND a gas fired hot >water tank', I'd love to see them. I'll probaly multiply by 2 - our HVAC >guys are getting $2,500-3,500 per ton for new construction air-to-air AC >systems. > >What else to save heating & DHW system costs in new construction ?? >best -- >--------------------------------------------------------------- >Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com >North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) >Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org >--------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 29 04:51:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA23853 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 04:51:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA20508; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 04:42:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 29 Mar 1998 04:36:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA19899 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 04:36:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA19895 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 04:36:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip210.efn.org [204.214.97.210]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA29654 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:41:03 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: Subject: GBlist: Fine Homebuilding and the passage of time Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:06:30 -0800 Message-ID: <01bd5af1$f64e80c0$d261d6cc@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2761 Will someone please explain to me why the May, 1998 issue of Fine Homebuilding has been out for a week now and it's not even April yet? Robert Bolman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 29 12:48:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03074 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:48:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03591; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:39:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:35:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03277 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:34:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03272 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:34:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.105] (ua6.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.39]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA17770 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:41:52 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:48:52 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: radon Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2762 John wrote: >Hi Don > >I put the Radon comment out for discussion of some of the conflicts in >the health data. Most of the available studies like the CMHC one base >their health effects information on findings from miners studies >extrapolated to the general public along with information known about >total exposures, etc. The conflict as I understand it arises from studies >done on cancer rates in high radon areas which showed a statistical >decrease in cancer rates not an increase. Added to that is information on >potential immunizing benefits of natural low level radiation exposures. >I'm not advocating this as a position, I generally like to err on the >side of caution but I am interested in the information especially when >contrasted with the amount of resources being dedicated to radon >remediation. As I mentioned in the post to Rob there are many more >directly associated health risks within an indoor environment including >sources of radiation that are not pursued as vigorously as radon. >My projects have been detailed to not exacerbate radon entry using >careful ground seals but make use of a large base of regional material >potentially high in radon so I'm concerned about the quality of >information out there. >I'm going to post this on the GBlist hopefully someone might have some >current information. > >Best >John > >Don Fugler wrote: > >> Sorry, John, if I am coming in late on this radon conversation. CMHC >> has a decent new book on radon, including health risks, remediation, >> measurement, etc. You can get it from: chic@cmhc-schl.gc.ca >> >> Don Fugler >> CMHC Hi folks, Guess I'm coming in late on the radon thread too. Didn't see any earlier ones. Maybe I'm not getting all the posts. Anyway, here goes. I'm pretty familiar with most of the radon epidemiology and risk models. Here are my thoughts: - radon and decay products are far and away the best documented human carcinogen (animal studies, bio-physical model for genetic damage, cell studies, and both industrial and residential human epi studies) - I don't find the jump from the mining studies to non-industrial settings a big one because 1) the uranium miners lung cancer rates were compared to the lung cancer rates of gold and tin hard rock miners who had all the same environmental exposures as the uranium miners except radon and decay products, 2) there are a substantial number of homes around the world where occupants get the same radon and decay product radiation doses as miners received in the studies. Recent work on particle size and distribution done by DOE supports the idea that the miners received a larger dose than was previously thought by as much as a factor of two. This work may change the risk coefficient, but not the evidence of carcinogicity - I haven't heard anyone argue that radon isn't a carcinogen of concern - only what, how or whether a specific level of radon should be considered unacceptable risk - the idea that a low dose stimulates the immune system, hormesis, intrigues me, but I have seen no evidence for it that was outside the uncertainty of the measurement and analysis. In this case we're looking for evidence at low levels, where there's a lot of confounding factors. - I don't expect studies done which compare lung cancer rates in geographical areas with higher radon levels to those with lower lung cancer levels to find a relationship between lung cancer and higher radon areas. This type of study is called an ecological study. They are of use when you are studying an acute health effect or when the population is sedentary. With radon, the health endpoint may not become apparent until years or decades after the exposure. When a population moves every 3 to 12 years, the exposure calculated from a large number of indoor radon measurements is unlikely to reflect the exposure of the transient population. Compounding this problem in ecologicla studies is that the cancer databases list the current address at the time of death. People dying of lung cancer often move to urban areas for medical treatment, so the address listed does not reflect the expsoure they received even if they did not move frequently. The uncertainty on both sides of the hypothesized correlation lead me to expect positive and negative relations from ecologicla studies. There is an ecological study of a Scandanavian island where the population is sedentary and the geology of the island makes for quite different indoor radon levels on half the island. This study found a risk factor for radon exposure that was similar to that found in the mining studies. - tobacco smoke must be accounted for in any lung cancer study - case control studies are the best bet for studying the lung cancer link, however, even in these cases the uncertainties in estimating dose are high. You could study this for a long time and not have any better data than the miner studies. - Lastly, John, I'm interested in the other environmental and radiation exposures you mentioned that seem riskier than radon. Could you post them? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 29 13:10:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03425 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:10:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04382; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:01:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:57:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04120 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:57:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04116 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:56:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.105] (ua6.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.39]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA21922 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:03:59 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01bd5881$168e6c60$4a5496ce@barkeatr.slic.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:11:40 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Low VOC carpet Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2763 > Im working on an medical office remodel and was looking for some >suppliers of carpets that dont offgass anyone know of any? Tim >McCarthy, Architect/Builder >35 Wellington St. >Malone NY 12953 >http://www.slic.com/~barkeatr/ My thoughts on carpet: - my major problems with carpets have been the result of poor maintenance, water intrusion or condensation (slab-on-grade) or a bad batch of product (carpet manufacturer's usually quickly resolve bad batch problems) - there are no zero emmission carpets, cushions or glues, but many of them are low emmitters today My carpet decision points: - do they need carpet? if not avoid it - definitely avoid it where there's slab on grade, carpets will be heavily soiled or there is a low budget for carpet maintenance - get the carpet maintenance spec form the International Institute of Carpet and Upholstery Certification and ask client if they are willing to actually follow it - see article on costs of installing and maintaining carpets and hard surface floors in schools in June, 1994 School Business Affairs - if after that they still really want it, get something that is easy to clean, resists water intrusion, insulates slab on grade surface from warm, humid indoor air, and has recycling and low emmissions (I like the Collins and Aikman stuff) - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 29 14:00:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04498 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 14:00:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05931; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:50:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:46:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05623 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:46:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05619 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 13:46:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA09405; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 10:51:57 -0800 Message-ID: <351E97C2.B95E7662@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 10:49:38 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Brennan , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Radon References: <35190CC9.3451@cmhc-schl.gc.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2764 Hi Terry I had hoped you would jump in on this one and was thinking of belatedly asking you specifically for input. I've been confused about radon studies specifically the epidemiology involved and where and how the concept of risk is established and how this relates to immunology. The questions for me are endless. Naturally occurring sources of radiation are widely prevalent and historically settlement patterns have not seemed to discriminate and you would think that anecdotally areas of ill health would have strong vernacular associations tied to them. That is why I was interested in what you term ecological studies. I think part of my concern is my growing worry about general environmental sensitization and our confusion and inability to address the basics. The basics to me are what we consciously manufacture and introduce into our environment that causes ill health and muddy the waters so to speak. I have to admit my concern is less immediate human ill health because there is an element of complicity there but a more general concern for ecological health. The huge expenditure and concern with radon as a naturally occurring risk seemed to me in this context unwarranted and diversionary. It would seem to me that if there were an order of priorities what is blatantly in our face or of our own manufacture would seem more appropriate than looking under rocks. I know this seems a silly point to bother making but take it as evidence of my worry and frustration about the growing damage that I am seeing evidenced as a growing environmental sensitivity among family, friends and landscape. Thanks for clarifying the information it worked to create a bit more focus as to what it was I was actually concerned about. Other manufactured sources of radiation or environmental contamination may not constitute technically as great a risk but the human willingness to maintain the conditions for manufacture and exposure may be the greater risk. Best John Terry Brennan wrote: > Hi folks, > > Guess I'm coming in late on the radon thread too. Didn't see any earlier > ones. Maybe I'm not getting all the posts. Anyway, here goes. > > I'm pretty familiar with most of the radon epidemiology and risk models. > Here are my thoughts: > > - radon and decay products are far and away the best documented human > carcinogen (animal studies, bio-physical model for genetic damage, cell > studies, and both industrial and residential human epi studies) > > - I don't find the jump from the mining studies to non-industrial settings > a big one because 1) the uranium miners lung cancer rates were compared to > the lung cancer rates of gold and tin hard rock miners who had all the same > environmental exposures as the uranium miners except radon and decay > products, 2) there are a substantial number of homes around the world where > occupants get the same radon and decay product radiation doses as miners > received in the studies. Recent work on particle size and distribution done > by DOE supports the idea that the miners received a larger dose than was > previously thought by as much as a factor of two. This work may change the > risk coefficient, but not the evidence of carcinogicity > > - I haven't heard anyone argue that radon isn't a carcinogen of concern - > only what, how or whether a specific level of radon should be considered > unacceptable risk > > - the idea that a low dose stimulates the immune system, hormesis, > intrigues me, but I have seen no evidence for it that was outside the > uncertainty of the measurement and analysis. In this case we're looking > for evidence at low levels, where there's a lot of confounding factors. > > - I don't expect studies done which compare lung cancer rates in > geographical areas with higher radon levels to those with lower lung cancer > levels to find a relationship between lung cancer and higher radon areas. > This type of study is called an ecological study. They are of use when you > are studying an acute health effect or when the population is sedentary. > With radon, the health endpoint may not become apparent until years or > decades after the exposure. When a population moves every 3 to 12 years, > the exposure calculated from a large number of indoor radon measurements is > unlikely to reflect the exposure of the transient population. Compounding > this problem in ecologicla studies is that the cancer databases list the > current address at the time of death. People dying of lung cancer often > move to urban areas for medical treatment, so the address listed does not > reflect the expsoure they received even if they did not move frequently. > The uncertainty on both sides of the hypothesized correlation lead me to > expect positive and negative relations from ecologicla studies. There is > an ecological study of a Scandanavian island where the population is > sedentary and the geology of the island makes for quite different indoor > radon levels on half the island. This study found a risk factor for radon > exposure that was similar to that found in the mining studies. > > - tobacco smoke must be accounted for in any lung cancer study > > - case control studies are the best bet for studying the lung cancer link, > however, even in these cases the uncertainties in estimating dose are high. > You could study this for a long time and not have any better data than the > miner studies. > > - Lastly, John, I'm interested in the other environmental and radiation > exposures you mentioned that seem riskier than radon. Could you post them? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 29 18:09:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11216 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:09:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14291; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 29 Mar 1998 17:54:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13789 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 17:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13784 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 17:53:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip8.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.8]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA21940; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:00:37 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980329231007.007078d0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:10:07 -0500 To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Direct venting Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2765 At 05:47 PM 3/28/1998 EST, Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: >I don't disagree, Dave, but manufacturers of gas water heaters seem to use the >term direct vent to mean simply that the heater is sidewall vented. There are four venting categories for combustion appliances -- based upon whether there is postive or negative static pressure in the vent. TYPE I & II have negative vent pressures, are non-condensing, lower efficiencies (65% to 83%) & are venting thru type B, single wall metal & lined chimneys. TYPE III & IV have a positive pressure in the vent & use airtight plastic, PVC, CPCV or metal venting materials. These generally have higher efficiences and may be condensing (90%+) or not (78% to 83%). 'Direct Vent' itself needs to be further defined by 'natural draft' or 'mechanical draft'. I believe this will in most cases determine whether sidewall vented (close to the 'natural draft' appliance & TYPE I) or a longer run (following the manufacturers specs, of course - for the 'mechanical draft' appliance & TYPE III or IV). Apolgies to Richard Karg and all if there have been significant updates/changes to NFPA 54, 1992. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 29 18:09:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11217 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:09:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14293; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 29 Mar 1998 17:54:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13777 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 17:53:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13772 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 17:53:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip8.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.8]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA31014; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:00:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980329231003.0070f02c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:10:03 -0500 To: "carmine vasile" , From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Water heaters Cc: "Warren Hodgdon" , "Tom St. Louis" , "Tim Bernadowski" , "Rolf Butters" , "Rodger Kallu" , "Rick Graham" , "Mike LeBeau" , "Kevin McAuley" , "Ken Ladd" , "Jim Vaughn" , "Jim Carney" , "Frans Plugge" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2766 At 12:47 PM 3/26/1998 -0500, carmine vasile wrote: >Hello Frazer: > > What is the first hour rating of the 50g/34g Polaris Units? First hour ratings: Voyager SSV90-45S = 125g. Targa = 300g. Polaris = 120g. > Also if you are interested in a less expensive alternative offering the >long life offered by stainless steel construction, plus high energy factor, >don't overlook a Combination Water Heating System comprised of a 50g Vaughn >Stonelined water heater & GFX. Carmine, I don't see a 50g Vaughn on their web site, although I'm interested. We have builder who's about to go with an Energy Star house. Give me a call at 477-2922 & let's discuss it. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 29 20:39:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA13977 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:39:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA19930; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:30:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:24:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA19518 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:24:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19514 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:24:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.183] (usr1a55.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.183]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA13551; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:30:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:30:49 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01bd5af1$f64e80c0$d261d6cc@home.efn.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Robert Bolman" , From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Fine Homebuilding and the passage of time Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2767 At 1:06 AM -0800 3/29/98, Robert Bolman wrote: >Will someone please explain to me why the May, 1998 issue of Fine >Homebuilding has been out for a week now and it's not even April yet? > >Robert Bolman > I can't say for sure--perhaps it has to do with maximizing advertising revenue. But you'll be happy to know that we don't have the same premature publication problem at Environmental Building News. We're hoping that most of our readers will get their _March_ issue before the month runs out--they were mailed only last week. We are hoping to get back onto a mailing date earlier in the month, but we'll be sure not to zoom past that target and mail a month or two early. Alex Wilson, Publisher Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 29 21:18:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14748 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:18:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21542; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:09:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:03:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA21188 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:03:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA21184 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:03:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 1IIHa11407 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:09:51 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <81178f9c.351efef1@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:09:51 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Radon Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2768 John, In a message dated 3/29/98 6:55:23 PM, in a discussion of radon you wrote: <> There seems to be an implication here that human activity is "bad" and "nature" is "good". Seems to me poison is poison no matter where it comes from and our priority should be in eliminating the worst, easiest to deal with and least debated ones first. Getting rid of soil gases in homes seems pretty straight forward and cheap in new construction. Let's take care of it. Who cares if radon is a naturally occuring carcinogen. I'd bet cancer from rocks is no more fun than cancer from toxic waste. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 29 23:22:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA18263 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:22:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA28258; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:13:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:07:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27743 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:06:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27726 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:06:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip30.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.49]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA57 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:13:31 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980329232519.006b568c@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:25:19 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Radon In-Reply-To: <81178f9c.351efef1@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2769 >There seems to be an implication here that human activity is "bad" and >"nature" is "good". Seems to me poison is poison no matter where it comes from >and our priority should be in eliminating the worst, easiest to deal with and >least debated ones first. Getting rid of soil gases in homes seems pretty >straight forward and cheap in new construction. Let's take care of it. Who >cares if radon is a naturally occuring carcinogen. I'd bet cancer from rocks >is no more fun than cancer from toxic waste. > It's not just radon. I could be led to believe that I wouldn't want soil gas entering my house, even if it sat in a radon-free area. In addition to water vapor, there's a fascinating array of VOCs, toxins, and foul-smelling things in the soil that we tried to get away from when design concepts drifted away from dirt floors... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 29 23:32:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA18509 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:32:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA29286; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:23:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:17:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA28588 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA28580 for ; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 23:17:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000014194; Sun, 29 Mar 1998 22:23:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980330042621.006c0188@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 22:26:21 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: direct venting etc Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2770 hello out there Am finally persuaded that I need to further display my ignorance, but since I am about to build a SIP cabin I need to know more about the subject that is now on the board. With regard to water heaters,. What is a combination unit? Heats water and what else? What is the meaning of the following: EF: 1.49 to 1.71 Hourly Standby Loss: 178 Btu/hr "First Hour Rating": 180 gal. And can anyone give me advice about the 'safety' of using Jotul stoves in a SIP? A small old one.. My place will be heated entirely by woodstove and the sun--no ducting. Do I have a choice regarding good air circulation? Aren't HRVs made part of a duct system? Is my only choice opening windows and using bathroom and kitchen fans? Are there gas (cooking) stoves that are sealed combustion? Is Peerless one of these? The definitions of direct venting have been most useful. thanks, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 30 05:23:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA26359 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 05:23:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA10491; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 05:13:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Mar 1998 05:08:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA10224 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 05:07:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA10220 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 05:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA17775 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 05:14:39 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 04:50:21 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Water heaters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2771 98.03.27 1754est I note from the Targa www site that it apparently is NOT a sealed system, as the typical installation diagram shows holes in the building wall for ventilation. See targa www site for the diagram. Did I get that right? Can it still be as efficient as claimed? jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 30 11:12:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA05109 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:12:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23236; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:01:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:55:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22730 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:55:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22726 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:55:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KaE25850; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:59:45 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:01:51 -0800 Subject: GBlist: carpeting for medical office Message-ID: <19980330.110154.6622.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-3,6-7,10,14-18 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2772 Hi, Last week Tim McCarthy asked advice on carpet for medical offices. I have been away and just got the chance to reply. One company to look into is Lowe's Carpet. They carry a line with antimicrobials and special backing , designed specifically for medical application. Personally, I would limit the amount of carpet used. You would be better off to use easy to clean surfaces like linoleum, VCT tile , cork or other mopable surfaces. The trouble with carpeting, aside from the usual objections, is that in a medical setting there are greater chances for such contaminants as blood, vomit and infectious fluids. Also, carpet does not wear as well as some of the other alternatives. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 30 15:20:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA12751 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:19:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10310; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:10:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:03:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA09490 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:03:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09465; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:03:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA35482; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:00:11 -0700 Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:00:10 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver , Karen Braun Subject: GBlist: plants for finishing marshes in greywater treatment system Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2773 Would anyone know which plants to use in the finishing marsh of an indoor aquatic greywater treatment system that may need little light and do not grow very high? Any direction or guidance is welcomed. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 30 15:39:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13184 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:39:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11717; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:29:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:24:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA11332 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:23:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11321 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:23:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p6.ltec.net [206.158.213.16]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19465; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:07:39 -0600 Message-ID: <351FFC5E.C8A124DA@navix.net> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:11:11 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Radon References: <35190CC9.3451@cmhc-schl.gc.ca> <351E97C2.B95E7662@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2774 Could someone mention the areas in the country that ARE considered as higher risk radon areas? Thanks, Sharon Eby-Martin ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 30 16:44:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA16240 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:44:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15106; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:34:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:28:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA14691 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:27:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14687 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:27:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA15564 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:34:20 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <351FFC5E.C8A124DA@navix.net> References: <35190CC9.3451@cmhc-schl.gc.ca> <351E97C2.B95E7662@cow-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:33:38 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Radon Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2775 98.03.30 1620est Sharon, I believe EPA & various local jurisdictions have radon data in some detail, maps, etc. Contact your local govt or see the EPA www site. I know it once had some info. I had my pic taken with C Browner of EPA back in 93 at the National Assoc of Counties Legislative Conference, when radon was hitting the media big time. As county supervisor, I "won" 50 test kits to give out to my locality on return, made me feel like an organ donor (to a point). Nasty stuff, get a handle on it, test your space no matter what the assessed risk. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 30 18:11:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA18556 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:11:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21650; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:01:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:54:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA20864 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:54:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com (ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com [209.37.0.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA20858 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:54:21 -0500 (EST) From: Jim_Hartzfeld@mail.ifsia.com Received: (from uucp@localhost) by ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) id SAA11306; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:01:17 -0500 Received: from 10.1.48.6 by ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com via smap (3.2) id xma011277; Mon, 30 Mar 98 18:00:54 -0500 Received: by mail.ifsia.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 852565D7.007ECA43 ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:03:46 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: INTERFACE To: environs.com@juno.com cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <852565D7.0077E324.00@mail.ifsia.com> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:02:54 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: carpeting for medical office Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2776 You might also consider carpet tiles or 6 foot performance broadloom carpet that is made with Intersept antimicrobial from Interface Flooring Systems. All Interface Flooring System products have contained Intersept for the last ten years or so. These products resist the growth of microbial colonies that cause more cases of sick building syndrome and building related illnesses than the traditional bad guys, VOC's. Intersept is currently being used and specified in a large number of other building products and finishes including paint (Porter), ceiling tiles (Armstrong), air filters (American Air Filter) epoxy flooring, coatings, etc. A few things you should have in mind when specifying materials with antimicrobials: - check for an EPA registration number, - broad spectrum efficacy (effectiveness versus gram negative and positive bacteria and fungi), - toxicity - Intersept is considered a bio"stat" not a biocide, therefore the toxicity is significantly lower (about that of table salt) than most alternatives. - whether the material is topically applied (will wash off) or integrated into the materials and - presence of metals. If this sounds a little like a commercial, please excuse me. I don't want you to think I am representing a disinterested third party perspective. I do work for another subsidiary of the same company that produces these carpets and antimicrobials. Interface is the world's largest manufacturer of contract commercial carpet. The carpet mill previously mentioned is a relatively minor player, without the technical support or commitment to this issue. For more information on this subject, please contact Interface Research Corporation (770-421-9555) who has their own operating VOC chambers and microbiology laboratories dedicated to the pursuit of improved indoor air quality. Sorry for the rambling. Jim Hartzfeld ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 30 18:31:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA19043 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:31:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA22731; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:22:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:16:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA22296 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:16:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA22292 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:16:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.84] (uc19.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.84]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA07782 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:23:08 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980330.110154.6622.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:30:52 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: carpeting for medical office Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2777 >Hi, >Last week Tim McCarthy asked advice on carpet for medical offices. I >have been away and just got the chance to reply. > >One company to look into is Lowe's Carpet. They carry a line with >antimicrobials and special backing , designed specifically for medical >application. > >Personally, I would limit the amount of carpet used. You would be better >off to use easy to clean surfaces like linoleum, VCT tile , cork or other >mopable surfaces. >The trouble with carpeting, aside from the usual objections, is that in >a medical setting there are greater chances for such contaminants as >blood, vomit and infectious fluids. Also, carpet does not wear as well >as some of the other alternatives. > >Beverly Weiter >Environs Interiors >Boca Raton, FL I do not like incorporating antimicrobials in furnishings. They put selective pressure on that favors the success of resistant individuals. They change the mix of bacteria, releasing species which do not compete well with common and relatively benign co-habitants. They introduce specifically toxic materials into products, manufacturing processes and the waste stream. There's a good piece in Scientific American March 1998 - a sidebar to an article on antibiotic resistant bacteria. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 30 19:13:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA20775 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:13:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25203; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:04:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:58:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24680 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:58:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA24670 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:58:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from van-52-1237.direct.ca (kadulski) [204.174.250.85] by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yJoYS-0005hY-00; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:05:28 -0800 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Water heaters Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 15:55:35 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2778 > Leo Rainer replied: > Yes, it sounds like a cross between a gas turbine and a large traction motor > when starting up. Think Batmobile. We have not had any complaints in our > installations but it is definitely something to consider. Were your > installations side wall or roof vented? I could see the side vent being > more audible to neighbors than a roof vent. > > I have not had a chance to hear whether the Voyager emits the same sound. In fact one was roof vented, and the other one was side wall vented (the unit was actually placed against the outside wall, so the total vent run was very short). Both are in typical smaller -lot size suburban locations, so the distance between houses is not very large (in other words, it was not on half acre lots). ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seymour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 30 19:19:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA20891 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:19:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25386; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:06:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:01:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA24915 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:00:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24910 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 19:00:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p18.ltec.net [206.158.213.28]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA21440 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:43:39 -0600 Message-ID: <35202EFF.3F876AD6@navix.net> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:47:12 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: tilapia Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2779 This is to whoever it was that asked me last week about my sources for information on tilapia being illegal to own in parts of the U.S. unless a permit is held... sorry, I lost your email. My source is just something a friend had said about 3-4 years ago about the tilapia. I wish I had documented proof of what he spoke of, but it was only based on what he had searched and found out at the time. He had only checked into the possibility of personally raising a few himself and had said that they were illegal for the individual to own in the states of Texas, Colorado, and New Mexico. Many things have changed in that amount of time with a lot of things in the world, so who knows if this information still applies. That's why I brought it up on the greenbuilding list, so I could find out more on tilapia. That I did.... thanks everyone! Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 30 21:11:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA24107 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:11:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA01490; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:01:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:57:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA01118 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:57:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (teapot06.bigpond.com [139.134.5.237]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA01112 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:57:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from MA-A02-pool-166.tmns.net.au (MA-A02-pool-166.tmns.net.au [139.134.95.166]) by teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ya233920 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:01:27 +1100 Message-ID: <008101bd5c48$d00919e0$8c5f868b@default> From: "Brian Woodward" To: Subject: GBlist: Embodied energy in Building Materials Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:00:07 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_007E_01BD5C9C.8C6C4000" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2780 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01BD5C9C.8C6C4000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone have a Web reference which contains the embodied energy in = different building materials, preferably including alternative materials = such as earth. Thanks in advance. Brian Woodward, Qualified Architect, Earthways, Australia. -specialising in and living with Sustainable Technologies, Low Cost, = Owner Built, Passive Solar, Loadbearing Mudbrick construction, Composting Toilets, and Solar = Electricity.=20 -Overseas Aid Work in Nepal and South Africa. -Earthways Sustainable Lifestyles Resource Centre, Wollombi, N.S.W. 2325 = Australia. e-mail brianwoodward@bigpond.com Webpage www.users.bigpond.com/nsw9999 ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01BD5C9C.8C6C4000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone have a Web reference = which contains=20 the embodied energy in different building materials, preferably = including=20 alternative materials such as earth.
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Brian Woodward, Qualified Architect, = Earthways,=20 Australia.
-specialising in and living with Sustainable Technologies, = Low=20 Cost, Owner Built, Passive
 Solar, Loadbearing Mudbrick = construction,=20 Composting Toilets, and Solar Electricity.
-Overseas Aid Work in = Nepal and=20 South Africa.
-Earthways Sustainable Lifestyles Resource Centre, = Wollombi,=20 N.S.W. 2325 Australia.
e-mail brianwoodward@bigpond.comWebpage=20 www.users.bigpond.com/nsw99= 99
------=_NextPart_000_007E_01BD5C9C.8C6C4000-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 30 22:01:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA25281 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA04715; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:51:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:47:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA03996 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:47:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03277 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:32:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id VQR00415; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:24:04 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:54:52 -0700 Subject: GBlist: earth engaged Message-ID: <19980330.185659.3462.6.goldeneagle1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-42,44-52,54-83 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2781 to get a professional oppinion on some questions a while back- Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- > > Skylights are certainly an option, as always balacing heat gain, heat > loss, ventilation and natural light distribution is the main concern, > finding that balance is not always clearcut. Not optimized skylights dropped in roofs admit up to 800 W/m^2 in the summer and loose a lot of heat in the winter. Toplights need to be carefully oriented and shaded in order to serve either as apertures for solar heat gain (monitor lights facing south) or for lighting (monitor lights / shedlights mostly facing north). Low k-values and good insulation to overcome condensation problems are critical. Simple heat loss > calculations don't account for the health benefits derived from > daylighting and how one can effectively calculate those benefits is > beyond me. Daylight apertures have first and foremost psychological benefits. The most important study to prove this was done in 1972 (Wilson, L.M.: "Intensive care delirium: the effect of outside deprivation in a windowless unit", Arch. Internal Medicine, 130, 225, 1972): "... Wilson examined 50 patients, in two intensive care wards, in two comparable hospitals, in Arkansas, USA. One ward was windowless, the other had windows. Both groups of patients were similar in terms of age, treatment and physical condition. Wilson found that 40% of the patients in the windowless ward had developed post-operative delirium as against 18% in the windowed ward. Further, there was an increased incidence of post-surgical depression in those patients in the windowless ward who did not develop post-operative delirium." (Boyce, P.: "Human Factors in Lighting", Macmillan, New York, 1981) I just accept the importance of natural lighting as essential > to healthy living and search for the most efficient method to provide > it. If someone has devised a formulae for calculating these various > elements of design, I would love to hear it. This is one of those places > where design becomes intuitive as opposed to engineer > Has anyone ever worked with reflecting daylight into this kind of > structure or commercial spaces with limited daylighting? (lightpipe > retrofit) That was done with prisms as early as 1900, in underlit buildings of industry workers in Berlin, Germany. Around that time it was well known that tuberculosis and rickets could be prevented by exposing patients to high sunlight levels. That is a mute issue nowadays, and piping light into buildings is worthwhile for regions with high sunshine probability and high energy cost. Numerous bnuildings in the US utilize sunlight for lighting purposes. The efficiency of light pipes, however, is low. Martin Moeck, PhD Assistant Professor Architectural Engineering The University of Kansas mmoeck@ukans.edu > > > Samantha M. > (Wendy McDonald) > Holistic Homeplaces > Denver, CO > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > > --------- End forwarded message ---------- --------- End forwarded message ---------- _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 30 22:02:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA25338 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:02:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA04923; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:53:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:48:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA04204 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:48:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA04192 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:48:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip18.ivnet.net [206.101.73.178]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA02663; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:54:36 -0800 Message-ID: <35205A31.ED137A2E@ivnet.net> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 18:51:29 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" CC: Green building list Subject: Re: GBlist: Water heaters References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2782 Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA wrote: > 98.03.27 1754est > > I note from the Targa www site that it apparently is NOT a sealed system, > as the typical installation diagram shows holes in the building wall for > ventilation. > > See targa www site for the diagram. > > Did I get that right? Can it still be as efficient as claimed? > jh It could still be efficient, it uses a pvc vent pipe. This indicates that it is "condensing" which means that little heat is wasted in the exhaust. To improve the efficiency of the entire structure, you might want to set it up in a shed where it can burn unheated air. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 30 23:17:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA28598 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:17:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08863; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:04:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08496 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:04:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08489 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:04:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000026200; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:11:04 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980331041336.006cb2cc@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 22:13:36 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: use of biosolids in gardens Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2783 Intrigued by the discussion of using biosolids in the garden, since I do, I contacted our local engineer and received the following answer: Sacie Lambertson >Thanks for the comment on the use of biosolids on gardens and >vegetables. Over the years there has been quite a little concern over >the use of biosolids (or more specifically - metals and pathogens).Some >of that concern and concern for the use of biosolids in general prompted >>40 CFR Part 503, which is the federal regulation that sets the standards >for the use of biosolids on agricultural fields as well as for residential uses. > >The federal regulation sets limits on the concentration of metals in any >biosolids product that is to be used by the public for whatever reason >food crops and non-food crops. It also requires a rigorous testing for >pathogens (viruses, bacteria, larva). The material must meet these requirements >before it can be used in this manner. > >However, as a user of the material from whatever the source, it is >completely within rights to request copies of the testing results and the standards. It's also reasonable to expect an explanation of the standards from the source to >be assured of the materials compliance with federal regulations and safety. > >I am including a Fact Sheet that addresses any connection (or lack of >connection) of ALS to the use of Milorganite. If it doesn't come out clear, you can >also read it off of www.wef.org under biosolids and then fact sheets. Feel free to contact me with any further questions. > >Jeanette Houfek, JHoufek@ci.lawrence.ks.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 30 23:24:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA28720 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:24:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09532; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:11:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA09025 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:10:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09007; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:10:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id XSJ09923; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:11:02 EST To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org, klbraun@freenet.calgary.ab.ca Subject: Re: GBlist: plants for finishing marshes in greywater treatment system Message-ID: <19980330.221018.6591.5.sbtauto@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,7-11,13-26 From: sbtauto@juno.com (Steven D. Shepard) Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:11:02 EST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2784 On a related topic: I am receiving a lot of requests from San Antonio Sustainable Building Coalition members for a speaker on the topic of "Wetlands?" I have no resource for this type of person. Can anyone refer me to a potential speaker on this topic. Preferably qualified. Thanks in advance. On Mon, 30 Mar 1998 13:00:10 -0700 (MST) "Jorg D. Ostrowski" writes: >Would anyone know which plants to use in the finishing marsh of an >indoor >aquatic greywater treatment system that may need little light and do >not >grow very high? Any direction or guidance is welcomed. Jorg Ostrowski > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 31 00:28:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA29970 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 00:28:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA11607; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 00:19:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 31 Mar 1998 00:15:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11335 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 00:15:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11331 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 00:15:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p7.ltec.net [206.158.213.17]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA24617 for ; Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:07:02 -0600 Message-ID: <35207ABB.AEE6D1C9@navix.net> Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 23:10:20 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Embodied energy in Building Materials References: <008101bd5c48$d00919e0$8c5f868b@default> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F9569108B4E39DB6DBED0272" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2785 --------------F9569108B4E39DB6DBED0272 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Woodward wrote: > Does anyone have a Web reference which contains the embodied energy > in different building materials, preferably including alternative > materials such as earth. Thanks in advance. Brian Woodward, Qualified > Architect, Earthways, Australia. > -specialising in and living with Sustainable Technologies, Low Cost, > Owner Built, Passive > Solar, Loadbearing Mudbrick construction, Composting Toilets, and > Solar Electricity. > -Overseas Aid Work in Nepal and South Africa. > -Earthways Sustainable Lifestyles Resource Centre, Wollombi, N.S.W. > 2325 Australia. > e-mail brianwoodward@bigpond.com > Webpage www.users.bigpond.com/nsw9999 I am requesting a clarification on your message... what type of embodied energy are you looking for? Is the amount of energy absorbed ie, biomass... energy mass etc... as in the amount of energy absorbed from the sun on a brick floor? thank you... Gerry Martin --------------F9569108B4E39DB6DBED0272 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Woodward wrote:
 Does anyone have a Web reference which contains the embodied energy in different building materials, preferably including alternative materials such as earth. Thanks in advance. Brian Woodward, Qualified Architect, Earthways, Australia.
-specialising in and living with Sustainable Technologies, Low Cost, Owner Built, Passive
 Solar, Loadbearing Mudbrick construction, Composting Toilets, and Solar Electricity.
-Overseas Aid Work in Nepal and South Africa.
-Earthways Sustainable Lifestyles Resource Centre, Wollombi, N.S.W. 2325 Australia.
e-mail brianwoodward@bigpond.com
Webpage www.users.bigpond.com/nsw9999

I am requesting a clarification on your message... what type of embodied energy are you looking for?
    Is the amount of energy absorbed ie, biomass... energy mass etc...
as in the amount of energy absorbed from the sun on a brick floor?
            thank you...
        Gerry Martin --------------F9569108B4E39DB6DBED0272-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 31 03:46:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA03718 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 03:46:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA17891; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 03:36:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 31 Mar 1998 03:32:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA17621 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 03:32:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA17616 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 03:32:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA05885 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 03:39:17 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35205A31.ED137A2E@ivnet.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 02:01:11 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Water heaters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2786 98.03.31 0150est I understand your point, but what about their proffered installation inside [conditioned space]? With no forced input of combustion air, as for sealed systems like my newer Trane furnace, would not the efficiency of the "system" of hwh & building be degraded over your suggested outside location which is not always practical? There is something reassuring about watching that combustion thru glass! An unscientific comment, but is sealed not best? Don't I recall something in that old Chuck Berry song, "Maybelline", about "...knew that was doin' my motor good" when he realizes that some cold air is coming in? Talk about pop science... jh Not an engineer, but on the net they can never be sure what you are... -------------------------------- >> 98.03.27 1754est >> I note from the Targa www site that it apparently is NOT a sealed system, >> as the typical installation diagram shows holes in the building wall for >> ventilation. >> See targa www site for the diagram. >> Did I get that right? Can it still be as efficient as claimed? >> jh -------- >>It could still be efficient, it uses a pvc vent pipe. This indicates that it >is "condensing" which means that little heat is wasted in the exhaust. To >improve the efficiency of the entire structure, you might want to set it up >in a shed where it can burn unheated air. >Bruce Donelson >A Better Builder ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 31 16:18:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA22109 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:18:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA21235; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:08:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:03:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20787 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:03:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.state.vt.us (mail.state.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20773 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:03:14 -0500 (EST) From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Received: from vdhvax ([159.105.135.2]) by mail.state.vt.us (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-44988U13000L13000S0) with SMTP id AAA89 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:17:25 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:10:23 -0500 Message-Id: <98033116102304@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Radon...a reply X-VMS-To: SMTP%"greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2787 I've been away from the list for a week, but I have a few points to add on the recent radon thread. The National Academy of Sciences BEIR VI report, the most definitive accumulation of scientific data on radon since NAS' BEIR IV report in 1988, was released on 2/19/98. The study confirms what Terry and others have indicated. Points include: - BEIR VI confirms that radon is the 2nd leading cause of lung cancer and a serious public health problem. - NAS has estimated that 12% of lung cancer deaths in the U.S. are linked to radon. (15,000 to 22,000 deaths per year). - NAS noted that the data from radon studies in homes is consistent with studies of radon health effects in mines and that lung cancer can be reduced by limiting exposure to radon in homes. - Even very small exposures to radon can result in lung cancer. NAS concluded that no evidence exists that shows a threshold of exposure below which radon levels are harmless. The science is about as strong as you can get for any environ- mental health risk: actual human data, confirmed by animal studies and cell studies. For NAS' summary of the report, try the EPA web site: http://www.epa.gov/iaq/radon/beirvi.html The complete report is available through NAS at: http://www.nap.edu/search/index.html Someone asked about radon potential. EPA does indeed have a Map of Radon Zones which break the country down, at the county level, into three radon potential zones. Many State radon offices have more detailed info (including down to the ZIP code level). You can get a copy of the map by calling 1-800-SOS-RADON or by visiting the EPA website: http://www.epa.gov/iaq/radon/zonemap.html This map is useful to help state and local organizations address policy issues such as targeting resources or implement radon-resistant construcion in building codes. However, the map should NOT be used to determine whether or not an individual home should be tested. The only way to know what the radon levels in an individual home are is to test. Bottom line: 1. Radon is a serious public health concern 2. You should test your home for radon 3. If you have elevated radon levels, you should fix the problem 4. If you're building a new home, especially in a high radon potential area, you should consider using radon-resistant construction techniques Hope this helps. Mike mrogers@vdh.state.vt.us Side note: Adding on Terry's comments about the limitations of ecological studies. Scenario: I live and work for 65 years in suburban Chicago. At 65 I retire and move to Florida. I die of lung cancer at 70. Sound plausible? It happens that Kane County, IL is a high radon potential county, and there is a high chance that I was exposed to elevated radon levels. I moved to a low radon potential county in FL. My lung cancer death is reported as occuring in the low radon potential county in FL instead of in Kane County, IL. Of course, even if the county were right, we wouldn't know what my individual exposure had been. You see the problem. *Ecological* studies don't work well for this type of issue. Read the NAS report instead. M ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 31 16:28:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA22412 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:28:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA21970; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:19:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:14:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA21530 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:14:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.state.vt.us (mail.state.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21523 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:14:42 -0500 (EST) From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Received: from vdhvax ([159.105.135.2]) by mail.state.vt.us (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-44988U13000L13000S0) with SMTP id AAA192 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:28:57 -0500 Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:22:37 -0500 Message-Id: <98033116223680@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Soil gases (including radon) X-VMS-To: SMTP%"greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2788 My brain my jogged by the radon thread. I have heard several people state, and I read in the EEBA Builder's Guide, that a radon reduction system is also useful in reducing infiltration of other soil gases. Of course, this makes perfect sense because the mechanisms by which radon is kept out of a home should work just as well to keep other gases out. I've seen several studies showing the effectiveness of radon mitigation and radon resistant construction. The missing links for me right now with respect to other soil gases are a characterization of the extent of the problem, and studies showing that the soil gas reduction system described in the EEBA guide are effective at removing OTHER soil gases. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Mike mrogers@vdh.state.vt.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 31 17:27:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24711 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:27:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25716; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:17:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:13:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA25218 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:13:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mag1.magmacom.com (mag1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.210]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA25209 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:13:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from port209.magma.ca (port209.magma.ca [206.191.5.209]) by mag1.magmacom.com (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA16624; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:20:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:20:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199803312220.RAA16624@mag1.magmacom.com> X-Sender: stephen@mail.magmacom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Mark Albanese , greenbuilding@crest.org From: stephen@thermotechwindows.com (Stephen Thwaites) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #131 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2789 At 07:24 AM 3/28/98 -0500, Mark Albanese wrote: >To everybody, > > I have just purchased a home in southwest Florida which has an unheated >pool. Can anybody offer any advice regarding what type of pol heater I >should buy. The dealers have suggested the purchase of a electrical heat >pump rather than solar. My pool does have a jacuzi. I am hoping to come up >with either a purely solar solution or a combination of solar for the main >pool and a small heat pump for the jacuzi. > >Are there more effective solar systems than the thin black grid based >systems I see on my neighbors house? Are there any sights on the internet >that are good for continued research ? > >Thanks. >Mark Albanese > I used to work for a solar pool heater manufacturer and am a small scale distributor of solar pool heaters for our local market - so i'm biased. But, other than a blanket, a black plastic unglazed solar heater is about the most sensible way to heat a pool. Solar pool heating in this part of the world is very cost effective - unusual for renewable energy. This is a mature technology. I would look through you r local yellow pages and pick the dealer who will give you the best service. Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ottawa Ontario Canada >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 31 17:47:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA25122 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:47:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA27101; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:33:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA26775 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:33:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (teapot06.bigpond.com [139.134.5.237]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA26765 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:33:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from MA-A02-pool-179.tmns.net.au (MA-A02-pool-179.tmns.net.au [139.134.95.179]) by teapot06.onaustralia.com.au (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ka264690 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:39:25 +1100 Message-ID: <001c01bd5cf5$da044de0$b35f868b@default> From: "Brian Woodward" To: , Subject: Re: GBlist: Embodied energy in Building Materials Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:37:36 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0017_01BD5D49.6C3EE960" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2790 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BD5D49.6C3EE960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gerry, My understanding of the term 'embodied energy', is the amount of fossil = fuel energy used to manufacture a particular material or product. Brian Woodward >I am requesting a clarification on your message... what type of = embodied >energy are you looking for?=20 > Is the amount of energy absorbed ie, biomass... energy mass etc...=20 >as in the amount of energy absorbed from the sun on a brick floor?=20 > thank you...=20 > Gerry Martin=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BD5D49.6C3EE960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Gerry,

My = understanding=20 of the term 'embodied energy', is the amount of fossil fuel energy used = to=20 manufacture a particular material or product.

Brian Woodward

>I am requesting a clarification on your message... what type of = embodied=20 >energy are you looking for?
>    Is the amount = of=20 energy absorbed ie, biomass... energy mass etc...
>as in the = amount of=20 energy absorbed from the sun on a brick floor?=20
>           = ; thank=20 you...
>        Gerry Martin=20

 
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01BD5D49.6C3EE960-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 31 18:03:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA25498 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:03:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA27903; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:53:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:49:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA27591 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:49:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from Netcube.ntwrks.com (Netcube.ntwrks.com [192.154.76.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27586 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:49:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ntwrks.com (ppp20.ntwrks.com [192.154.76.24]) by Netcube.ntwrks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA22499; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:59:40 -0500 Message-ID: <35217424.FA2B2D81@ntwrks.com> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:54:28 -0500 From: Charles Brown Reply-To: wayne_jones@ntwrks.com Organization: Brown & Jones Architects, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Thwaites CC: Mark Albanese , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #131 References: <199803312220.RAA16624@mag1.magmacom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2791 Hello All, For those interested in energy consumption by and solar heating for swimming pools, DOE has a web site with software for pools. - http://www.eren.doe.gov/rspec/RSPEC.htm Besides the value of solar heating, the biggest lesson from this page and software is the value of a pool cover. Wayne Jones Stephen Thwaites wrote: > At 07:24 AM 3/28/98 -0500, Mark Albanese wrote: > >To everybody, > > > > I have just purchased a home in southwest Florida which has an unheated > >pool. Can anybody offer any advice regarding what type of pol heater I > >should buy. The dealers have suggested the purchase of a electrical heat > >pump rather than solar. My pool does have a jacuzi. I am hoping to come up > >with either a purely solar solution or a combination of solar for the main > >pool and a small heat pump for the jacuzi. > > > >Are there more effective solar systems than the thin black grid based > >systems I see on my neighbors house? Are there any sights on the internet > >that are good for continued research ? > > > >Thanks. > >Mark Albanese > > > I used to work for a solar pool heater manufacturer and am a small scale > distributor of solar pool heaters for our local market - so i'm biased. > > But, other than a blanket, a black plastic unglazed solar heater is about > the most sensible way to heat a pool. > > Solar pool heating in this part of the world is very cost effective - > unusual for renewable energy. > > This is a mature technology. I would look through you r local yellow pages > and pick the dealer who will give you the best service. > > Stephen Thwaites > Thermotech Windows > Ottawa Ontario Canada > > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Brown and Jones, Architects 16 N. Boylan Ave. Raleigh, NC 27603 (919) 831-2625 FAX 831-2626 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 31 19:08:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA27187 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 19:08:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA01329; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:58:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:54:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA01016 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA01012 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 18:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.162.253.97] (d66.best1.net [205.162.253.86]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA30711; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:00:27 -0800 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 16:02:00 -0100 To: "Brian Woodward" From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: Embodied energy in Building Materials Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2792 >Gerry, > >My understanding of the term 'embodied energy', is the amount of fossil >fuel energy used to manufacture a particular material or product. > >Brian Woodward Not just the fossil fuels, but total energy input, from resource extraction, through processing, manufacture, transportation, installation, and disposal at the end of its useful life. Ideally anyway. ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 31 20:40:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA01238 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:40:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05750; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:30:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:26:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA05262 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05250; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA24391; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:31:40 -0800 Message-ID: <35219849.4536DD8@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 17:28:42 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "strawbale@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Foam foundation systems Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2793 I've been looking at foundation systems and am wondering if anyone has come across any situations where foam has been used exclusively for bearing as a perimeter foundation wall. By exclusively I mean just foam no concrete core or concrete wall with foam facing. I'm thinking primarily of frost protected foundations with a short foam wall 10-12" above grade. Foams with a higher compressive strength say 40psi or greater (typeVI) allow for significant loads. More than sufficient for most residential loads. The benefits would be greater thermal continuity at a point where there is usually significant loss and ease of construction. I'm also wondering how much benefit there would be for seismic loads. Also it eliminates a concrete material usage that may be redundant at this point if it is simply a material encapsulated in foam and the foam still requires additional finishing. An SIP with an exterior conc. board would be useful in this context. Has anyone come across such a product, or of foam used as I've described. Thanks John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 31 23:02:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA04269 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:02:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14185; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:52:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:48:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA13660 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:48:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13644; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:47:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA23078; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:54:51 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 22:54:56 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Foam foundation systems To: John Salmen cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "strawbale@crest.org" X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <35219849.4536DD8@cow-net.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2794 On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, John Salmen wrote: > I've been looking at foundation systems and am wondering if anyone has > come across any situations where foam has been used exclusively for > bearing as a perimeter foundation wall. By exclusively I mean just foam > no concrete core or concrete wall with foam facing. I'm thinking > primarily of frost protected foundations with a short foam wall 10-12" > above grade. Foams with a higher compressive strength say 40psi or > greater (typeVI) allow for significant loads. More than sufficient for > most residential loads. The benefits would be greater thermal continuity Foam has creep and stiffness problems, not strength problems. There is no need to load the foam strcuturally though -- just place the foam insulation below grade as require for frost protection and build your floor insider -- I have personally built this way using a concrete slab with a thickened edge. Four years and no problems (why should there be?) Bearing on foam is a questionable idea, though not necessarily out of the question. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 31 23:18:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA04661 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:18:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA15408; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:09:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:04:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA14733 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:04:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14721; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 23:04:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA27958; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:09:55 -0800 Message-ID: <3521BD7E.2A8EB4DE@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 20:07:27 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "strawbale@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Re: Foam foundation systems References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2795 Yes we've run thickened edge slabs but the detailing and reinforcement specifications have always tended towards being complex and somewhat unresolved (in my mind). What I'm envisioning is a simple slab poured on a foam base against a foam edge that becomes the perimeter wall support with an exterior weatherproofing (cementious coating). I've avoided SIP in roofing applications because of concern with creep in thickness but I'm curious where that would be a problem in direct bearing of a distributed load. Stiffness as well? Best John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. John Straube wrote: > On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, John Salmen wrote: > > > I've been looking at foundation systems and am wondering if anyone has > > come across any situations where foam has been used exclusively for > > bearing as a perimeter foundation wall. By exclusively I mean just foam > > no concrete core or concrete wall with foam facing. I'm thinking > > primarily of frost protected foundations with a short foam wall 10-12" > > above grade. Foams with a higher compressive strength say 40psi or > > greater (typeVI) allow for significant loads. More than sufficient for > > most residential loads. The benefits would be greater thermal continuity > > Foam has creep and stiffness problems, not strength problems. There is > no need to load the foam strcuturally though -- just place the foam > insulation below grade as require for frost protection and build your > floor insider -- I have personally built this way using a concrete slab > with a thickened edge. Four years and no problems (why should there > be?) Bearing on foam is a questionable idea, though not necessarily out > of the question. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube > Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group > University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg > Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 > UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 > Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 > x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 00:18:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA05916 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:18:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA18097; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:09:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:05:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA17783 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:04:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA17779 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:04:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip21.ivnet.net [206.101.73.181]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA15312; Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:10:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3521CB97.461BF4B3@ivnet.net> Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:07:38 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wendy L McDonald CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: earth engaged References: <19980330.185659.3462.6.goldeneagle1@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2796 That is a mute issue nowadays, and piping light into buildings is worthwhile for regions with high sunshine probability and high energy cost. Numerous bnuildings in the US utilize sunlight for lighting purposes. The efficiency of light pipes, however, is low. Martin Moeck, PhD Assistant Professor Architectural Engineering The University of Kansas mmoeck@ukans.edu I was thinking of using those new skylights with the Mylar pipes and acrylic roof bubbles for indirect daylighting for classrooms. It seems easier than framing some weird sawtoothed and maybe leak-prone roof for daylighting. Are these light pipes that inefficient? It seems I saw a coule of small ones that looked pretty bright. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma, Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 07:54:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA19570 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:54:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA00392; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:45:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:41:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA00065 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:40:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA00061 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:40:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id HAA03519 for ; Wed, 01 Apr 1998 07:45:50 -0500 Message-id: <2788751@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 01 Apr 98 07:54:09 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Radon...a reply To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2797 --- You wrote: 3. If you have elevated radon levels, you should fix the problem --- end of quote --- What, in your judgement, being familar with the literature, is a level which needs fixing? (Others add their opinion please) Thanks Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 08:08:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA20038 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:08:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA00954; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:59:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:55:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA00653 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:55:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp0-alterdial.uu.net (smtp0-alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA00647 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:55:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop0-alterdial.uu.net by smtp0-alterdial.uu.net with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: pop0-alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.27]) id QQejfo07532; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:01:59 GMT Received: from eei.org by pop0-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: mail.eei.org [204.254.108.2]) id QQejfo13655; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:01:59 GMT Received: from WPDomain-Message_Server by eei.org with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:02:21 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:01:46 -0500 From: Harvey Sachs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Dreaming about...air distribution systems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2798 The California Energy Commisssion has just released an RFP to work on ways to improve residential duct systems, called "Request for Proposal titled Residential Construction Quality Assessment, No. 400-97-402. It can be found, according to Randal Riedel of CEC, at http://www.energy.ca.gov/ Go to the Navigation Section. Then to Directory / Index of Site. Go to the *C* Section. Then to Contracts Being Offered by the Energy Commission. Under Solicitations go to Request for Proposals RFP # 400-97-402. This is a commendable effort, and really important, but it got me to wonder about the critical need for a parallel effort, based on a systems approach, that would move toward an entirely new approach, one that avoids the pitfalls of our present approaches to air and energy distribution. The goal would be to design in quality installation, rather than finding and fixing problems with diagnostic equipment. I am thinking along the following lines, and would like to know if this is totally nuts: 1) As residential construction improves, relatively less energy needs to be moved (per square foot of house), and there is less need for air distribution to the perimeter. Given better glazing (to avoid condensation problems in cold climates), can we keep the air distribution system out of exterior walls? It will require things like registers with good and adjustable throw, of course. We still need to move air for ventilation, and there are still losses and gains, but the distribution system for an advanced house could be radically changed. 2) With new construction methods, including built-up I-beam joists, there would be real opportunities to make "duct" runs easier, if the ducts were smaller and could pass through joists where needed. 3) Sheet-metal, duct-board, and similar current duct materials are inherently installer-hostile: It is almost impossible to build these systems in the field so they don't leak (or at least very labor-intensive), which is why we need all these duct blasters, mastics, etc. It is the same approach to quality that car builders used in the 1960s: check and correct after manufacture. 4) What if we think about supply systems that are LIKE PVC drain lines: engineered systems, with many kinds of fittings, all with glued-up slip joints. Hard to install these so they leak, eh? If we modestly boost pressures (taking advantage of PCM motors to deliver the amount of air that is actually needed) in smooth-wall systems, we might be able to down-size diameters (to lower installation cost and make it possible to run through I-beams, etc). 5) The return side desperately needs rethinking, too. One out-of-the-box idea there would be to use secondary fans in the zones to boost return pressure when needed, so small return pipes could be used. There are high-end, high-pressure HVAC systems available for retrofitting upscale brownstones & such, so this is not without precedent. What I am trying to articulate, though, is something that would become the mainstream and replace our current hard work to improve sheetmetal and duct board installation quality. So, what I am suggesting is a very large change, rather than incremental. It would require cooperation by the "box" (furnace, heatpump, etc) makers to get appropriate plenums and a bit more boost w/o noise. If PVC is the material of choice, there are major issues with Code officials about fire protection. Given the reduction in fire risks (fewer drunk smokers falling asleep in bed) and the wider installation of fire/smoke alarms, this might work; or it will need fire-retardant duct systems. It requires rethinking from a systems perspective (like new diffusers and registers). It would seem that a modest effort invovling CEC, SMACNA, ACCA, ARI, GAMA, and others might be real important. ARI's "21-CR" research initiative might be a vehicle, or there might be better ones. I just hope that we can accelerate thinking about better mechanisms that will work much better for present construction - and for manufactured housing systems, too. Thanks! Harvey M. Sachs Technical Director Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 08:21:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA20314 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:21:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01840; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:12:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:08:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01380 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:08:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp0-alterdial.uu.net (smtp0-alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01372 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:08:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop0-alterdial.uu.net by smtp0-alterdial.uu.net with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: pop0-alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.27]) id QQejfo09035; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:14:59 GMT Received: from eei.org by pop0-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: mail.eei.org [204.254.108.2]) id QQejfo26796; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:14:59 GMT Received: from WPDomain-Message_Server by eei.org with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:15:22 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:14:50 -0500 From: Harvey Sachs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: Terry@dreamscape.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Radon...a reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2799 Marc Rosenbaum asks what Radon level needs fixing. Neat question, because it shows how many variables there are. Here's a personal and perhaps out-of-date response, based on early work we did on radon diagnostics and mitigation at Princeton: 1) It first depends on what revealed the radon levels. Personally, for a concentration of <20 pCi/l based on any short term (4-day or less) measurement, I'd just do a long term averaging test before doing anything else. Radon exposure is cumulative and depends on average levels. I have measured 10x variations in radon concentrations with meteorological changes, so I don't trust short-term measurements. 2) It secondly depends on where the (long-term) measurement is made in the house, and how the house is built and operated. A worst-case illustrates: Older NJ house, dirt cellar, hot water heating. I hardly care how high the cellar radon levels are, if the cellar is only used for storage and the boiler, and total human "occupancy" is a few hours per year. I might care very much about the concentrations in the living area, but this must be measured separately. In the given case, hydronic heating, there may be little air exchange between cellar and living area. conversely, with conventional forced-air systems that have such leaky and inadequate return systems that the cellar is really just big return plenum at low pressure, I'd worry. 3) The really cynical would also note that the individual who doesn't live there very long has less interest than society, which worries about the cumulative risk to all occupants over the century or more that the house will be occupied. The cynic worries about jeopardizing the ultimate sale; while society worries about exposure to people. that is one reason I got out of the field as the realtors and lawyers decided that "enough" assurance was given by a 4 pCi/l short term test n the basement. It is hard to conceive a more meaningless approach to protecting health. Harvey Sachs (who speaks only for himself, and defers to veterans like Terry Brennan who carried the torch a really long way!) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 08:25:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA20406 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:25:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02249; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:15:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:11:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01676 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:11:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01657; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:11:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA18321; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:18:00 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:18:05 EDT From: John Straube Reply-To: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Foam foundation systems To: John Salmen cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "strawbale@crest.org" X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <3521BD7E.2A8EB4DE@cow-net.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2800 On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, John Salmen wrote: > Yes we've run thickened edge slabs but the detailing and reinforcement > specifications have always tended towards being complex and somewhat unresolved > (in my mind). What I'm envisioning is a simple slab poured on a foam base > against a foam edge that becomes the perimeter wall support with an exterior > weatherproofing (cementious coating). I've avoided SIP in roofing applications > because of concern with creep in thickness but I'm curious where that would be a > problem in direct bearing of a distributed load. Stiffness as well? > You said "for bearing as a perimeter foundation wall". If you mean place the slab edge on foam, this will of course work, because the slab edge is very stiff relative to the foam and the loads can be carried by the "40 psi" foam. I beleive that a design value like 10 or less is used for long-term loading. So, if the slab is normal construction, even with minimal steel mesh extending from the 3.5" slab to a 6" stiff edge, I am sure that this can be cast on foam, and often has been. Sorry I misunderstood the first time. Depending on climate the foam should extend from about 4' in from the edge. I always prefer full insulation, and you can use EPS on a sand base in the middle "non-loadbearing" slab areas. This has the advantage of keeping the concrete dry all year and lets the concrete dry to the soil if it gets moist somehow. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 08:35:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA20615 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:35:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02970; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:26:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:22:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA02629 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:21:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA02625 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:21:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip18.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.37]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA171 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:28:47 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980401084044.006b83d0@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 08:40:44 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Radon...a reply In-Reply-To: <2788751@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2801 >3. If you have elevated radon levels, you should > fix the problem >--- end of quote --- >What, in your judgement, being familar with the literature, is a level which >needs fixing? (Others add their opinion please) Hi Marc: Tthe traditional level of concern is 4 pCi/L... problem, though, is one of representative sampling. The context of the 4pCi/L concentration is one of annual average exposure, and nearly all measurements are taken under the time pressure of a sales transaction. Now I've only been in the field of indoor air quality for 20 years, but I could be led to believe that it could take more than the 2 or 3 days set aside for a screening measurement to satisfactorily esitmate the annual average. Statistical agruments are available to begin the task of interpreting isolated measurements from a technical standpoint. Ralph Larson wrote a fascinating series of papers in the late 60s to underscore tha 6th day sampling schedule for the National Ambient Air Quality Standard. There's a good paper by Melinda Ronca-Battista published in the proceedings of the 1987 APCA Specialty Conference on Radon that examines the distribution of shorter term measurements contributing to the annual mean and, more recently, researchers at LBL have been examining short-term/long-term differences. A bit arcane to take to a settlement table packed with people itching to get a piece of somebody else, though. They want to get themselves off the hook and put you on it. In most areas of the Country, interpretation of radon test results is a matter of contract. The sales contract usually stipulates a number that the screening measurement cannot exceed for nothing to happen. If the number is exceeded, the liability to repair kicks in. That's why they pull out the magnifying glass and pick through the numbers *real* close. In the interests of public health, however, my policy is that if you're within a factor of two and you start to squint at the numbers, you're trying to solve the wrong problem... I was at a meeting a number of years ago when an activist was trying to punish the State of Florida for selecting an action level of 4 pCi/L instead of 0.01 pCi/L. (Must have had the flu when dimensions and magnitudes were covered in school, I guess). Bill Rowe (a past Director of EPA's Radiation Programs) had been wheeled in to provide expert support. The activist asked Bill how he would interpret a reading of 4 pCi/L in his home. Bill said that based on available evidence, he could be led to believe that he has a radon problem if his reading was as low as 2 pCi/L. There was a brief pause for the drum roll, and Bill continued with the upper bound, saying that based on available evidence, he could be led to believe that he would not have a radon problem if his reading was as high as 6 pCi/L. That, I suspect is why pesticides are regulated to death without benefit of much in the way of measurements. The uncertainty bands on the dose-response curves cover more than an order of magnitude. Radon is only a factor of two or so. For real estate transactions, the practical answer is in the contract. For public health concerns, the answer is to move past fixing blame and get into fixing problems. Why waste time seeing what you can get away with when there's a world of accomplishment waiting? ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 09:31:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22638 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:31:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05595; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:17:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA04980 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:16:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04963; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:16:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA05714; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 06:21:22 -0800 Message-ID: <35224CBD.54530144@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 06:18:38 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "strawbale@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Re: Foam foundation systems References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2802 Hi John I think you were right the first time but then I thought your first reply referred to placing the wall on a slab on foam. I meant the wall placed on the foam. A picture would be nice or better descriptive abilities on my part. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. John Straube wrote: > You said "for bearing as a perimeter foundation wall". If you mean place > the slab edge on foam, this will of course work, because the slab edge is > very stiff relative to the foam and the loads can be carried by the "40 > psi" foam. I beleive that a design value like 10 or less is used for > long-term loading. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 09:44:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22960 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:44:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06478; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:35:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:31:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06126 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:30:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from alpha.wvup.wvnet.edu (alpha.wvup.wvnet.edu [129.71.54.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06121 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:30:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from boggssm.appstate.edu ([129.71.28.12]) by alpha.wvup.wvnet.edu with SMTP; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 9:39:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <352253C2.5301@alpha.wvup.wvnet.edu> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:48:34 -0500 From: "Gregory A. Boggs" Reply-To: pkb00589@alpha.wvup.wvnet.edu X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: thermal shields Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2803 I have a 96 year old house with around 55 push-out type encasement windows which leak considerably. I would like to keep the windows and after fixing the leaks, I am debating between a regular storm window ( if I can find one that fits) and a product that I found on the internet. The company, Thermal Shields, uses retractable panels with a Solar Film to reflect heat and ultraviolet light. Has anyone investigated this further or had any installed and if so, how efficient are they? For everyones' information, I found them at www.thermalshields.com. Thanks for any input. -Gregory Boggs ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 10:23:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24835 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:23:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08474; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:13:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:09:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08147 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:09:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.state.vt.us (mail.state.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08139 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:09:30 -0500 (EST) From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Received: from vdhvax ([159.105.135.2]) by mail.state.vt.us (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-44988U13000L13000S0) with SMTP id AAA198 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:23:44 -0500 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:15:31 -0500 Message-Id: <98040110153173@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Radon X-VMS-To: SMTP%"greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2804 >3. If you have elevated radon levels, you should > fix the problem >--- end of quote --- >What, in your judgement, being familar with the literature, is a level which >needs fixing? (Others add their opinion please) Marc: I'll take a slightly different tack than a couple of the other responses. I believe that you should, at a minimum use the EPA guideline of 4 pCi/L. At 4 pCi/l, the risk numbers are still there: about one lung cancer in a thousand for never-smokers, about one in a hundred for smokers. Very high when compared to other risks. So, if you're above 4 pCi/L, fix it. Radon levels in most homes can be reduced below 2 pCi/L, so you should consider fixing if you're between 2 and 4. A couple of points about the levels: You should test in the lowest *lived-in* portion of your home. If you just go to the wine cellar to get a bottle for dinner, you don't need to test there. If you enjoy being surrounded by the bottles, and spend hours there, you should test. The results of one short-term test by itself aren't enough (although is they were very high, that would raise an eyebrow, especially if I were buying a new home). There are a lot of variables. I did a three-month test in my home (during closed up heating season--no summer AC, just open windows, one of the benefits of VT), and I feel comfortable with that the results represent the long-term average radon levels in the house. Note also that in some states, you need to be certified to mitigate a radon problem. Mike mrogers@vdh.state.vt.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 10:36:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25210 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09333; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:27:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:22:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08956 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08936 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:22:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KyL25850; Wed, 01 Apr 1998 10:26:45 EST To: malbanese@gulfaccess.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:29:01 -0800 Subject: GBlist: solar pool heating Message-ID: <19980401.102904.6558.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,8-9,12-13,15-20 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2805 Mark, You are lucky to be in Florida because we have the Florida Solar Energy Center and theProject for an Energy Efficient Florida. Both would be good sources to consult on the best system for our area. One posting mentioned pool covers . That may be ok for Canada but I doubt you will be advised to use one here, since we have almost year-round sun. The Solar Energy Center is at 1679 Clearlake Rd.,Cocoa (407) 638-1000. They have an excellent librarian named Myrna Dubroff who will be of great help. Project for an Energy Efficient Florida is at 707 East Park Avenue, Tallahassee, (904) 222-0808, www.lewisweb.net/creative. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 10:50:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25668 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:50:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10506; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:40:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:36:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09713 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:35:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09707 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:35:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id JAA0000016469; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:42:46 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980401154518.0067f048@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:45:18 -0600 To: mmoeck@ukans.edu From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: earth engaged Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2806 Martin, Am interested in further comments on the "low" efficiency of light pipes. Several manufacturers out there advertize much better than average 100 watt lighting per 100sf of space. And, a while back someone on the list reported satisfaction with a brand they installed. I am thinking of using one on a 10/12 pitched southern exposure roof. Here in Kansas I've read that we get more sunshine for the amount of rain, 30"-35"/year, than any other place in the country. Seems like this should be a pretty good place for a light pipe. Thanks, Sacie Lambertson At 09:07 PM 31-03-98 -0800, you wrote: >That is a mute issue nowadays, and piping light >into >buildings is worthwhile for regions with high sunshine probability and >high energy cost. Numerous bnuildings in the US utilize sunlight for >lighting purposes. The efficiency of light pipes, however, is low. > >Martin Moeck, PhD >Assistant Professor >Architectural Engineering >The University of Kansas >mmoeck@ukans.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 10:50:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25680 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:50:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10526; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:40:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:36:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09726 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:35:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09714 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:35:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id JAA0000016510; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:42:50 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980401154522.0067dfcc@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:45:22 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: northern/southern low-e Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2807 My local Pella dealer swears that Pela puts their film on BOTH the inside of the outside glazing and the outside of the inside glazing. Though I am asking them to double check their assertion what would be the effect of this? Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 10:50:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25688 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:50:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10562; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:41:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:36:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09734 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:36:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09722 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:35:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id JAA0000016519; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:42:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980401154524.006686c4@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:45:24 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Combination water heaters and other questions Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2808 Trying Again............ Am finally persuaded that I need to further display my ignorance, but since I am about to build a SIP cabin I need to know more about the subject that is now on the board. With regard to water heaters,. What is a combination unit? Heats water and what else? What is the meaning of the following: EF: 1.49 to 1.71 Hourly Standby Loss: 178 Btu/hr "First Hour Rating": 180 gal. My place will be heated entirely by woodstove and the sun--no ducting. Do I have a choice regarding good air circulation? Aren't HRVs made part of a duct system? Is my only choice opening windows and using bathroom and kitchen fans? Are there gas (cooking) stoves that are sealed combustion? Is Peerless one of these? The definitions of direct venting have been most useful. thanks, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 11:07:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26225 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:07:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11736; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:58:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:53:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11229 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:53:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from javert.pagebreak.com (javert.pagebreak.com [207.105.6.80]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11214; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:53:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from vega ([206.170.25.147]) by javert.pagebreak.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.0) with SMTP id AAA201; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 08:01:49 -0800 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:58:31 -0800 Message-ID: <01BD5D43.F6A76740@gordon.price@albedodesign.com> From: gordon.price@albedodesign.com (Gordon Price) Reply-To: "gordon.price@albedodesign.com" To: "Strawbale@crest.org" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Comments requested on Thesis work Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 07:47:56 -0800 Organization: albedoDesign X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4008 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2809 Hello All, I have been lurking here for quite a few weeks now, and have learned a great deal (my saved mail is almost as unmanageable as my in box). Now I am hoping that some of you will be able to comment on a project I am working on. I am currently working on my BArch Thesis at Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo. My thesis is "Web Based Project Management for Small Projects". My basic premise is that the process of making buildings is fundamentally flawed, with each "profession" isolating it's self from what is going on around it. I believe a better process is one that is open and inclusive, where all the players in the project can work together, share ideas, reach solutions, etc. To that end I am designing a web based project management system to address these issues, and others. I invite anyone who is interested to take a look at the "Preliminary Functional Brief" at http://www.albedodesign.com/thesis and use the e:mail link at the bottom to make comments. All thoughts are welcome, and I hope to get a good variety of people (designers, owners, builders, etc.). The information you provide will help shape the final capabilities of the ProjectWeb, and how they are implemented. I am hoping to be updating the site 2-3 times a week until completion, and everyone is invited to continue to make comments as the project moves forward. I won't post anything more to these lists, however, to save the bandwidth for it's intended purpose. Also, in case you are wondering, I am a designer with a green bent, my thesis instructor is also sustainability oriented, and I think designers, builders, clients, etc. who are oriented the same way are already embracing the idea of sharing knowledge, not hoarding it (I don't believe there is a mailing list or news group out there for "Post-Modern Facade" fans ;). That makes the ideas and comments of the people in these groups very valuable. Thanks for all the great knowledge on the lists, and I look forward to hearing from some of you. Regards, Gordon Price ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 11:30:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26951 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:30:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13362; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:21:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:17:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12976 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:17:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from november.diac.com (root@diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12969 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.64.42.79] (p79.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.79]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA24063 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:22:27 GMT Message-Id: <199804011622.QAA24063@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Foam Foundations Date: Wed, 1 Apr 98 09:25:24 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2810 On 4/1/98 1:00 AM John Straub wrote (in part): >Foam has creep and stiffness problems, not strength problems. There is >no need to load the foam structurally though -- just place the foam >insulation below grade as require for frost protection and build your >floor insider -- I have personally built this way using a concrete slab >with a thickened edge. This is unresolved in my mind also. I'm not interested in a foam foundation per se, but would like to improve upon my understanding of slab-on-grade construction. Around here, the "thickened slab" would have to be 38" thick (30" for frost plus 8" above grade). If a FPSF were approved by the Building Dept, it would still have to be 20" thick. Either way, its a little awkward. We usually pour a separate footing from the slab due to the weight of the masonry walls we build. What construction details are you referring to in your post? Thanks. Buzz Burrell Boulder CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 12:26:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA28767 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:26:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16847; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:17:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:11:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15959 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15949 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:11:42 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MKU09143; Wed, 01 Apr 1998 12:16:30 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:16:02 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: solar pool heating Message-ID: <19980401.113113.3670.0.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <19980401.102904.6558.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,4-5,8-9,11-18,20-51 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2811 There is another product that I have used in the past (5 years ago) called EZHeat Deluxe made by Harter Industries of Homdel NJ. At that time they made a Santopreen solar absorber that served as a preheater for pools. Probably would have to confirm the company still exists. I don't think I have communicated with them since our one and only sale of this system back when. I remember the system price for a 20x50 pool was around $3000 which wasn't bad for 5 years ago. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:29:01 -0800 environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) writes: >Mark, > >You are lucky to be in Florida because we have the Florida Solar >Energy Center and theProject for an Energy Efficient Florida. Both >would be good sources to consult on the best system for our area. > >One posting mentioned pool covers . That may be ok for Canada but I >doubt you will be advised to use one here, since we have almost >year-round sun. > >The Solar Energy Center is at 1679 Clearlake Rd.,Cocoa (407) 638-1000. > They have an excellent librarian named Myrna Dubroff who will be of >great help. > >Project for an Energy Efficient Florida is at 707 East Park Avenue, >Tallahassee, (904) >222-0808, www.lewisweb.net/creative. > >Beverly Weiter >Environs Interiors >Boca Raton, FL >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get >completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno >at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 12:45:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29408 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:45:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18810; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:36:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:31:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18403 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:31:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18394 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:31:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (st-ppp01.hevanet.com [198.5.254.175]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09475; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:33:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <352279E5.624DE64E@hevanet.com> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 09:31:20 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Pella Low-E? References: <1.5.4.32.19980401154522.0067dfcc@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2812 Hi, Sacie-- In the 1996 Certified Products Directory of the National Fenestration Rating Council, there are several Pella windows with two low-e coatings, but they are all triple-glazed models. I don't see two coatings listed on the double-glazed models. Best, Mike David F. Lambertson wrote: > My local Pella dealer swears that Pela puts their film on BOTH the inside of > the outside glazing and the outside of the inside glazing. Though I am > asking them to double check their assertion what would be the effect of > this? Sacie Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 13:44:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA02157 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:44:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22183; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:35:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:31:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21733 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:30:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from essex.UCHSC.edu (essex.UCHSC.EDU [140.226.1.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21726 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:30:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (hooperj@localhost) by essex.UCHSC.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA09343 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:41:09 -0700 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:41:08 -0700 (MST) From: Joan Hooper To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: water heaters Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2813 As another ignorant lurker, I need clarification on the heaters being discussed here. The reason: I am soon going to convert my home (1600 sq ft, relatively tight and well insulated) from electric baseboard (ick!) to hot water baseboard heat. My contractor is recommending a teledyne boiler and then a heat exchanger storage hot water tank for domestic use. If I read the product information right, the combustion efficinecy of the boiler is ~84%. (What is the trade jargon/alphabet soup for combustion efficiency? Is that what AEF means?) What I am wondering: are the Targa,Polaris and Voyager units under discussion here things that would substitute for the teledyne boiler? Is 84% good efficiency? What are the relevant specs to compare the type of products I need? Thanks for help here, joan hooper ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 14:24:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04104 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:24:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24671; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:15:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:10:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24164 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:10:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24159 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:10:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p18.ltec.net [206.158.213.28]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA15276 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:58:42 -0600 Message-ID: <35228F39.18FB79E6@navix.net> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 13:02:18 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GBlist Subject: GBlist: solar food dryers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2814 Anyone know of the least expensive food-safe netting/mesh for making the trays in a solar food dryer? Is nonmetal plastic/fiberglass screen for windows safe? Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 14:25:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04137 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:25:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24788; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:15:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:11:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24239 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:11:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24234 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p18.ltec.net [206.158.213.28]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA12140 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:33:50 -0600 Message-ID: <35228968.AE7DD8AE@navix.net> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 12:37:29 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GBlist Subject: GBlist: tilapia Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2815 >***Sharon, I saw tilapia fillets for sale in the Publix supermarket >yesterday. I guess they are legal to own and sell here in Florida. >Does anyone know anything about their flavor and texture? >I would prefer to buy pond-raised fish, rather than fish >harvested from the open sea as I believe it is better ecologically, >but I may be wrong about that. I have refused to buy shrimp >ever since I saw a documentary about how much damage the >nets do to the seafloor, and how much sealife is killed in the >process of catching a few pounds of shrimp. Pond raised >shrimp are more expensive, and I thought the tilapia fillets >were quite expensive too. >Ardeith@Juno.com >Walk The Path With Practical Feet! Ardeith, I remember Publix from when I lived in Florida years ago. Still have lots of family there too. Evidently from what I've been reading there's some species of Tilapia that are naturally found in Florida. Tilapia do seem to be a bit expensive and theres a guy in Colorado I think that only sells tilapia as long as they are dead when they leave his place. Don't know if it's just a food thing or if he's not allowed to sell them live. But from what I remember my friend saying about tilapia for eating, it is the same fish that they took out of the Sea of Galilee in the Bible times. He always thought they were the perfect fish to raise yourself to eat because they have a real white colored meat and don't smell too "fishy". Their bones are larger so it's easy to fillet them and even eat them with the bones in without having to worry about getting those tiny bones stuck in your throat. They are vegetarian in nature and eat the algae and such that grows in the pond. A big 50# bag of fishfood for about $10 or less can last up to two years if you have a small pond (let's say 6'x12' with a filtered system including a pump for oxygenating the water) in your backyard. I know this is true because my friend has grown them for years and years (they repopulate themselves rather excessively) and is still only on his second bag of fishfood. They eat little and grow fast and large. The only problem is water temperature. They die if the water gets too cold- 50 to 55 degrees or so. Warm water is essential for them to thrive. If you are in the southern part of Florida you would be able to raise them cheaply yourself if you wanted to (once you paid the initial expense to set up the pond/tank properly and for the fish themselves). You would need enough of them to be self repopulating. My friend started out buying 50 small fish to begin with at the time. Don't know what he's doing now concerning all this. Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 14:38:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04578 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:38:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25817; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:24:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25289 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:24:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25282 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:24:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from van-as-11a01.direct.ca (kadulski) [204.174.245.97] by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yKTDv-000054-00; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:31:00 -0800 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: Foam foundation systems Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:38:43 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2816 > John Salmen asked: > I've been looking at foundation systems and am wondering if anyone has > come across any situations where foam has been used exclusively for > bearing as a perimeter foundation wall. By exclusively I mean just foam > no concrete core or concrete wall with foam facing. I'm thinking > primarily of frost protected foundations with a short foam wall 10-12" > above grade. Foams with a higher compressive strength say 40psi or > greater (typeVI) allow for significant loads. More than sufficient for > most residential loads. The benefits would be greater thermal continuity > at a point where there is usually significant loss and ease of > construction. I'm also wondering how much benefit there would be for > seismic loads. Also it eliminates a concrete material usage that may be > redundant at this point if it is simply a material encapsulated in foam > and the foam still requires additional finishing. An SIP with an > exterior conc. board would be useful in this context. Has anyone come > across such a product, or of foam used as I've described. > John Straube added: > > Bearing on foam is a questionable idea, though not necessarily out > > of the question. > > I've not come across any such instances - the big issue I would see is how you protect the foam from mechanical, chemical and UV degradation. As to it's strength, there is no doubt that there are high density foams capable of taking the loads - many airports in Canada use rigid polystyrene under the runways to protect them from frost heaving, etc. (so do some roads). The weight of a fully loaded jumbo jet is definitely going to be substantial. I would suggest asking a representative of Dow or Celfortec or other manufacter for their suggestions and comments. Their technical people may have some comments in this regard. ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seymour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 14:50:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04856 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:50:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26625; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:40:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:36:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26216 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:36:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from beta.nova.org (beta.nova.org [209.31.144.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26211 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:36:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (pm2-15.dial.nova.org [209.31.144.239]) by beta.nova.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA03244 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 14:43:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3522C2F8.1E6A@infiltec.com> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 14:43:04 -0800 From: David Saum Reply-To: dsaum@nova.org Organization: Infiltec X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Radon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2817 Sharon Eby-Martin asks >Could someone mention the areas in the country that ARE >considered as higher risk radon areas? There are some maps that show the big picture: 1. I have the US Geological Survey radon potential map at the top of my "About Radon" page: http://www.infiltec.com/inf-abrn.htm 2. Air Check has a map that summarizes their thousands (millions?) of US radon tests: http://www.radon.com/radon/radon_map.html 3. Lawrence Berkeley Lab has a "High Radon" project where they are trying to identify the highest radon potential locations. There is a state map on this page: http://eande.lbl.gov/IEP/high-radon/hr.html 4. County data would be more useful than state data and both LBL and the EPA have developed county radon potential estimates, but I do not think this data is on the web now. You can download a test file from USGS that gives the county "surficial uranium concentrations" that were measured by flyovers of the US. This was done years ago to discover minable uranium deposits. Since radon is produced from the decay of uranium, this is one of the major factors in indoor radon concentrations. To download this US county NURE data file, go to http://eande.lbl.gov/IEP/high-radon/data/NURE-cty.html For instance, here is the USGS NY county NURE data that I have ordered from highest to lowest uranium concentration: "NY","Broome",2.57 parts per million Uranium in surface soil "NY","Putnam",2.42 "NY","Rockland",2.38 "NY","Chemung",2.35 "NY","Tioga",2.34 "NY","Dutchess",2.32 "NY","Otsego",2.32 "NY","Schoharie",2.3 "NY","Montgomery",2.29 "NY","Orange",2.29 "NY","Chenango",2.21 "NY","Albany",2.19 "NY","Schenectady",2.19 "NY","Greene",2.17 "NY","Columbia",2.15 "NY","Delaware",2.15 "NY","Steuben",2.15 "NY","Rensselaer",2.11 "NY","Madison",2.01 "NY","Westchester",1.98 "NY","Ulster",1.97 "NY","Sullivan",1.94 "NY","Schuyler",1.92 "NY","Washington",1.9 "NY","Cortland",1.89 "NY","Erie",1.89 "NY","Chautauqua",1.87 "NY","Allegany",1.84 "NY","Oneida",1.81 "NY","Wyoming",1.76 "NY","Tompkins",1.74 "NY","Cattaraugus",1.71 "NY","Herkimer",1.69 "NY","Lewis",1.61 "NY","Niagara",1.61 "NY","Yates",1.52 "NY","Saratoga",1.5 "NY","Genesee",1.47 "NY","Livingston",1.47 "NY","Orleans",1.44 "NY","Jefferson",1.43 "NY","Fulton",1.42 "NY","Saint Lawrence",1.4 "NY","Seneca",1.39 "NY","Onondaga",1.38 "NY","Warren",1.37 "NY","Cayuga",1.33 "NY","Ontario",1.31 "NY","Monroe",1.11 "NY","Richmond",1.11 "NY","Hamilton",1.09 "NY","Oswego",0.98 "NY","Wayne",0.95 "NY","Clinton",0.93 "NY","Franklin",0.86 "NY","Essex",0.77 Perhaps Terry can tell us whether this ordering agrees with his experience in NY. However, the county data is still too rough to get a good picture of what the radon potential is on your street. Take a look at the US GS map of the radon potential of the Washington DC metro area where I live: http://sedwww.cr.usgs.gov:8080/radon/rncounty.html As you can see, there are tremendous variations even on the county level. Even street by street data would not be detailed enough! We see this every day in our DC radon mitigation business. A house with 100 pCi/L is next door to one with 1 pCi/L becasue they have foundations of different depths that are in contact with different soil layers. So the bottom line is: The only way to be certain if your house has a radon problem is to test for it. Hope this is helpful, Dave Saum Infiltec http://www.infiltec.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 15:27:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA06846 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:27:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28846; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:18:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:14:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28504 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:14:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28497 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:14:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA00947 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:20:57 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2788751@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:19:42 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: opinion Re: GBlist: Radon...a reply Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2818 98.04.01 1512est Based on what I learned, mostly several years ago, the harmful level is uncertain, somewhat like the asbestos situation. Therefore we err on the side of caution & make every reasonable effort to eliminate measureable exposures. I would appreciate an update on this if applicable. Once we know something like radon is harmful, doesn't it become difficult to ethically measure the effects? In any kind of experiment over a long term, most intelligent research subjects would not agree to possibly experience a measureable exposure. jh ------------------- >--- You wrote: >3. If you have elevated radon levels, you should > fix the problem >--- end of quote --- >What, in your judgement, being familar with the literature, is a level which >needs fixing? (Others add their opinion please)>Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 15:57:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA07819 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:57:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01210; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:48:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:44:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00791 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:43:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from beta.nova.org (beta.nova.org [209.31.144.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00782 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:43:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (pm2-16.dial.nova.org [209.31.144.240]) by beta.nova.org (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA04437; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:50:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3522D2B3.33A9@infiltec.com> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 15:50:11 -0800 From: David Saum Reply-To: dsaum@nova.org Organization: Infiltec X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-KIT (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Subject: RE: GBlist: Soil gases (including radon) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2819 On 31 Mar 1998 mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us writes >I've seen several studies showing the effectiveness >of radon mitigation and radon resistant construction. >The missing links for me right now with respect to >other soil gases are a characterization of the extent >of the problem, and studies showing that the soil >gas reduction system described in the EEBA guide >are effective at removing OTHER soil gases. Don Fugler was the project manager for recent CMHC-SCHL research report "Estimating the Concentrations of Soil Gas Pollutants in Housing" (#97-114) that estimates soil gas as about 5% of building ventilation rates. So any pollutant in the soil gas would be present in the building at 1/20 of its soil gas concentration. This suggests 4 pCi/L of radon in the house corresponds to about 80 pCi/L in the soil gas. We generally see several hundred pCi/L soil gas in the DC area. You can contact CMHC at http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/Research/ I worked with the EPA on a research project on this subject a while back. The house was owned by a chemically sensitve person who had been overexposed to a termiticide and who contacted me about putting in a soil depressurization system to reduce the termiticide. The EPA wanted to use radon as a tracer, so when the house was found to have high radon, the EPA did VOC measurements before and after the radon system went in. The radon went way down, but the VOC measurements were so low that the EPA measurements were inconclusive. However, the occupant claimed that the radon system had increased his problems!? So we ended up replacing the PVC pipe with copper pipe ($$$!). It seems that people may be more sensitive than some of the most sophisticated instrumentation. Other problems were that some of the termiticide was injected into the block walls and soil around the house where the standard subslab radon mitigation system would have been less effective in mitigation than if all the pollutants were coming from under the slab. It's a complicated world out there, but I still think the general idea has merit. Hope this helps, Dave Saum Infiltec http://www.infiltec.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 16:49:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA11172 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:49:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA04119; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:39:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:35:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA03631 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR01 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.137]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03617 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:34:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from steve - 153.34.178.97 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:41:19 -0800 From: "Steven L. Katz" To: Subject: GBlist: Looking for a greenbuilder in Lexington, KY Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:45:37 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <0c8bd1941210148UPIMSSMTPUSR01@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2820 We are about to close on a homesite in Lexington, KY and are looking for a greenbuilder. Does anyone know of one? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 17:00:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA11447 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:00:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA05359; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:50:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:46:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04695 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:45:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from Netcube.ntwrks.com (Netcube.ntwrks.com [192.154.76.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04683 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:45:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ntwrks.com (ppp27.ntwrks.com [192.154.76.31]) by Netcube.ntwrks.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA29401; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:56:08 -0500 Message-ID: <3522B6C1.E89DD6F0@ntwrks.com> Date: Wed, 01 Apr 1998 16:50:57 -0500 From: Wayne Jones Reply-To: wayne_jones@ntwrks.com Organization: Brown & Jones Architects, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gs11531@navix.net CC: GBlist Subject: Re: GBlist: solar food dryers References: <35228F39.18FB79E6@navix.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2821 Hello Gerry, I suggest you contact the Appalachian State University Solar Energy Society. They are a group of appropriate technology students and others working with solar. They do a lot of real-world testing and I know they have experience with solar food dryers. I suggest you contact Scott Suddreth (grateful@appstate.campus.mci.net) and he could direct you to the most knowledgable person doing this work. Wayne Jones GERRY MARTIN wrote: > Anyone know of the least expensive food-safe netting/mesh for making the > trays in a solar food dryer? Is nonmetal plastic/fiberglass screen for > windows safe? > > Sharon Eby-Martin > gs11531@navix.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Brown and Jones, Architects 16 N. Boylan Ave. Raleigh, NC 27603 (919) 831-2625 FAX 831-2626 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 17:10:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA11709 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:10:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06119; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:00:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:57:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05711 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:56:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05707 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:56:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.97] (usr0a22.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.86]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA10552; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:03:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:03:44 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35228F39.18FB79E6@navix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: gs11531@navix.net, GBlist From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: solar food dryers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2822 Many years ago, I designed and built some solar food dryers and used a large-weave, nylon mesh fabric that I brought at a fabric store. I think the mesh was about 1/4" to 1/2". I stretched this fabric over wood frames. I would avoid metal screens, and I feel less concerned about nylon than polyester (fiberglass), but this doesn't have a lot of basis in fact. Alex Wilson Environmental Building News At 1:02 PM -0600 4/1/98, GERRY MARTIN wrote: >Anyone know of the least expensive food-safe netting/mesh for making the >trays in a solar food dryer? Is nonmetal plastic/fiberglass screen for >windows safe? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 17:14:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA11837 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:14:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06474; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:04:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:00:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA06070 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:00:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.waymark.net (ns.waymark.net [207.18.144.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06062 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:00:35 -0500 (EST) From: kahless@ns.waymark.net Received: from [207.18.145.74] (dalmax1-74.waymark.net [207.18.145.74]) by ns.waymark.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19003 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:09:54 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: kahless@ns.waymark.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 16:06:00 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Tilapia Fish Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2823 To whoever it was seeking info on raising Tilapia - you might want to contact the American Tilapia Association. Their web page is: http://ag.arizona.edu/azaqua/ata.html Also: http://leviathan.tamu.edu/dac/rburns/overton/htmsub/tilapia.html Article on Marty Baker, horticulturist with the Texas Agricultural Extension Service. He was looking for a way to germinate water- melon seeds and ended up with a Tilapia/Greenhouse project. His email is in the article. Quoting from the article: >>But by far the greatest profit potential comes from the tilapia >>themselves. Though it's impractical to grow the fish to eating >>size in the greenhouse, after some trial and error, Baker has >>found it relatively easy to raise 1-inch fingerlings and 4- to >>6-inch brood fish by the thousands. The fingerlings can be sold >>to fish farmers who in turn raise the fish to eating size during >>the summer. >> >>Tilapia fingerlings currently sell for about 10 cents each. Last >>year, Baker raised 20,000 fingerlings plus hundreds of brood >>fish in his 40- by 90-foot greenhouse. He believes he could raise >>production eventually to 60,000 or 70,000 fingerlings per winter. === Also Sharon said: > Tilapia do seem to be a bit expensive and theres a guy in >Colorado I think that only sells tilapia as long as they are dead when >they leave his place. Don't know if it's just a food thing or if he's >not allowed to sell them live. I'll bet a buck he's trying to keep competition from coming in and lowering the prices. No basis in fact, just a hunch. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 20:46:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA23667 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA17814; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:37:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:32:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA17474 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA17467 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:31:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA20810 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:38:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:38:49 EDT From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Air Distribution To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2824 In reply to Harvey Sachs' informed and interesting comments on air distribution. This is an important issue, both from an energy point of view and from an indoor air quality view. So, lets avoid supply ducts completely. But let me digress. Almost everything Harvey said has already been incorporated in CMHC/NRCan's series of advanced houses (e.g. the Waterloo Green Home). No ducts are needed in exterior walls because the windows are not huge sources of heat loss. Smaller ducts are used because of smaller heat loads, but a minimum size must always be provided for fresh air ventilation. Remember also that leaky ducts are not a big deal to most Canadians becuase we do not follow the very strange pracitse of some Americans of running ducts outside of the building envelope -- this practise should simply be banned. Now back to my controversial statement -- no ducts. It is quite easy to supply fresh air to a house with very few ducts at all. The best type of system (and this has been done for health concious customers), is to provide small trickle ventilators over windows or equivelant in each roon. These ventilators, in essence controlled cracks, allow a certain minimum amount of fresh air to flow in, and an increase can be provided by opening the ventilator more. So, each room has individual occupant control of fresh air. This air flows in becuase the house is run at a small negative pressure (3-5 pa). Air is exhausted from baths and kitchens, and run through a heat recovery hot water heater -- heat from stale air is removed and put into hot water. The negative house pressure practically eleminates moisture problems in walls due to exfiltration. The hot water is used as heat transfer fluid to provide radiant heating (for those who want the best) or radiatior/convectors (for cost-conscious). Becuase the house is low energy, a combo unit makes sense, e.g. add an inline gas heater to boost the heat from the heat pump. So far, no supply ducts that could be contaminated by dirty ducts, dust mites, mould etc. In summer the system can run, albeit less effectively, in reverse. Air is taken in, cooled, the heat dropped into the domestic hot water tank. Air is exhausted through the windows. Summer moisture problems in walls are countereacted by positive pressurization. Hopefully proper design will limit the A/C need (true in most of Canada) and the limited air flows will be sufficient to deliver AC to most rooms. For higher AC loads, a few radiant ceiling panels will work wonders in a well-insulated house. Variations on such schemes have been built and successfully operated. Open concept planning, and the arrangment of stairways, undercut doors etc all play a role of course. Different arrangements would be needed for different climates. Cost need not be an obstacle, since I beleive most homes can be built with almost no ducts and no extra cost. Just a thought I was having lately .... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 20:57:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA23920 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:57:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18823; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:47:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:43:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA18135 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:43:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from bminet.bminet.com (root@console.bminet.com [207.170.27.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18126 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:43:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from clearned.bminet.com (dial162.bminet.com [207.170.27.162]) by bminet.bminet.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA29480; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:19:31 -0600 Message-Id: <199804020219.UAA29480@bminet.bminet.com> From: "Chuck Learned" To: , "GBlist" Subject: Re: GBlist: solar food dryers Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 19:00:07 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2825 Anyone who hangs out at the Midwest Renewable Energy fair has probably heard of Larisa Walk. She and her husband live off the grid without a refridgerator, thanks to her wonderfully efficient "Walk Solar Food Dryer" Larisa was besieged with so many questions that she wrote a small book called A Pantry Full of Sunshine. Energy Efficient Food Preservation Methods. available for $7.50 if you through in a few bucks for shipping I am sure she would send it to you. Her design is smart and affordable. Her book also includes information in working with each of the different foods that she dries. I saw her pantry its full of jars of goodies. She also cites sources for materials. Her address is Seldom Scene Productions Rt 3 Box 163A Winona MN 55987 ---------- > From: GERRY MARTIN > To: GBlist > Subject: GBlist: solar food dryers > Date: Wednesday, April 01, 1998 1:02 PM > > Anyone know of the least expensive food-safe netting/mesh for making the > trays in a solar food dryer? Is nonmetal plastic/fiberglass screen for > windows safe? > > Sharon Eby-Martin > gs11531@navix.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 1 22:08:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA26503 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 22:08:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA22300; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:58:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:54:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA21846 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21832 for ; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 21:54:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA144818; Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:00:16 -0700 Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 20:00:16 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Wayne Jones Cc: gs11531@navix.net, GBlist Subject: Re: GBlist: solar food dryers In-Reply-To: <3522B6C1.E89DD6F0@ntwrks.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2826 Hanging from the valence of our window quilts is a solar food dryer that is completely passive. Instead of freezing vegetable and fruit scraps like most people do in their coal-generated electric freezers (our fridge/freezer takes a break between September and June), we put them into the food dryer to dry before giving them to 1 of 3 worm bins. If we have too much, we throw it into our waterless toilet. It has a little roof to keep dust out, a black mesh to keep flies out (or in?), about 5 suspended black trays and a bottom to catch anything that may fall through the trays. Hanging it infront of the windows allows the food to dry quickly, even without the sun. And when you want to store it, it folds together like an accordian and is very compact (and space saving). We dry all our wild edible mushrooms in there too. Although we have not tried it yet, it is also supposed to work as a sprouter. For now we raise 2 trays of wheat grass in our 10" wide window sills. Perhaps this of interest to somebody? ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 07:11:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA12737 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA07636; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 06:57:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA07366 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 06:56:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA07362 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 06:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.101] (ub4.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.101]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id HAA14174 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:03:56 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:00:00 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: moisture software? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2827 Hi folks, I'm inetrested in computer programs which analyze moisture in buildings. Anything from simple calculations to complex simulations. What's out there? What do you like? What's useful for what jobs? - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 07:37:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA18921 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:37:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA08312; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:27:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:23:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA08067 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:23:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA08063 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip70.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.70]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA10737; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:29:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980402123944.0070bc50@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 07:39:44 -0500 To: dsaum@nova.org, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Radon Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2828 At 02:43 PM 4/1/1998 -0800, David Saum wrote: >Sharon Eby-Martin asks >>Could someone mention the areas in the country that ARE >>considered as higher risk radon areas? >For instance, here is the USGS NY county NURE data that I have >ordered from highest to lowest uranium concentration: Is that true - Nassua & Suffolk (the Long Island counties) are not included in NYS data - I see that NYC is also missing, it's not unusual much of NYS doesn't want to include what they call SENY (Southeast New York). Wouldn't radon levels be reasonably high in NYC, from the amount of mass involved - whereas on LI we see very low levels due to our sandy subsoil ?? best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 08:09:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA19636 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:09:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA09589; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:59:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:55:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA09217 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:55:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA09206 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:55:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4PQMa20074 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:01:23 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: <5fa130cb.35238c25@aol.com> Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:01:23 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: carpeting for medical office (continued) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 170 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2829 << Hi, >Last week Tim McCarthy asked advice on carpet for medical offices. I >have been away and just got the chance to reply. > >One company to look into is Lowe's Carpet. They carry a line with >antimicrobials and special backing , designed specifically for medical >application. > >Personally, I would limit the amount of carpet used. You would be better >off to use easy to clean surfaces like linoleum, VCT tile , cork or other >mopable surfaces. >The trouble with carpeting, aside from the usual objections, is that in >a medical setting there are greater chances for such contaminants as >blood, vomit and infectious fluids. Also, carpet does not wear as well >as some of the other alternatives. > >Beverly Weiter >Environs Interiors >Boca Raton, FL Jim Hartzfield > I'm a little late responding to this string but I was interested in the range of answers on whether or not to use carpet and whether or not it's worthwhile to treat it with an anti-microbial agent. Following is information from someone I know who has done research in this area: "A significant amount of my research was in discussions with CDC in Atlanta. At that time, they were pretty frustrated by carpet companies making claims about the efficacy of anti-microbial treatments without presenting studies for scientific community review." A summary of findings: Although carpet can harbor microbials, no study demonstrated an increase in nosocomial (originating in the hospital because of conditions within the hospital) disease when carpet was used. Only one real life occurence of carpet contributing to illness in hospitals was found, and that involved an intersept treated carpet. Aspergillosis was identified as the cause of the disease. It's pretty ironic that the only known case of carpet related transmission of disease was with an anti-microbial treated carpet. What they found was that the carpet had been inadequately cleaned, negating the effectiveness of Intersept, if any existed. The significance of the studies and the real life case history: If carpet is properly cleaned (as is the case with any floor surface), an anti-microbial is not needed. If carpet is not properly cleaned, then the anti-microbial is rendered useless. It is possible that carpet acts as a "sink" for disease casuing organisms, trapping them in the fibers where they can be removed by cleaning. On the other hand, disease causing organisms which fall to a hard surface floor are easily disturbed by walking traffic, etc, and become airborne again. Anti - microbials are relatively inexpensive and easy to apply. They are all pesticides. Since there is no proven benefit to antimicrobials, why introduce more chemicals to our environment...it seems counterintuitive. There are other significant advantages to carpet in health care facilities...reduced slip and fall, comfort underfoot, aesthetics, reduced noise levels, lower maintenance costs, etc., but that is all beyond the scope of the question. Me again. I apologize for the length of the email but as always, I'm interested in the range of opinions and information. There was also a recent article in the Wall St. Journal of the growing use of hardwood floors in residential building but when it comes to hospitals and commercial space, the above gave me something to think about. Phil Bailey/SustainAbility ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 08:44:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA20786 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:44:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10693; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:34:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:30:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA10454 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:30:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10450 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:30:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from JOSEPHCH (207-172-241-92.s29.as6.bsd.erols.com [207.172.241.92]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA13383 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:37:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:37:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199804021337.IAA13383@smtp1.erols.com> X-Sender: usbt@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding From: Joe Charlson Subject: Re: GBlist: moisture software? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2830 MOIST 3.0 is a 1-dimensional building envelope heat and moisture prediction software for building envelopes available from NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology in Gaithersburg, MD) for free; free tech support as well; developped by Doug Burch and Joseph Chi. I believe NRC Canada has a proprietary 2 or 3-D moisture transport software that you can contract with them to have performed. ****************************************** Joe Charlson USBT, United States Building Technology, Inc. http://www.erols.com/usbt Framingham, MA USA Tel: 508-424-0055 Fax: 508-424-0050 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 09:22:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21723 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:22:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12566; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:13:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:08:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12237 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:08:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.ntplx.net (mail.ntplx.net [204.213.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12232 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:08:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from ntplx.net (p01-31.hartford.dialin.ntplx.com [204.213.188.31]) by mail.ntplx.net (8.8.7/NETPLEX) with ESMTP id JAA01199; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:15:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35239D8A.4B915FE9@ntplx.net> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:15:40 -0500 From: Sherry Reply-To: sherry@ntplx.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Carpet thread Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2831 I deal with a number of doctors and dentists regarding other issues, but we found a CT company that manufactures a product called DUR-A-Flex/ 100% Solids Epoxy Flooring systems. It is a combination of colored quartz aggregate fused together during application into a seamless surface with a clear 100% solids, epoxy binder and top coat. This product meets USDA, FDA, and OSHA standards. It has superior chemical resistance and low irritation potential. Sorry for the commercial sounding post....anyone interested in additional info may email me directly. Sherry Kern-Altman Internet E-Source Corp. East Hartford, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 09:44:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22262 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:44:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13457; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:35:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:30:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13131 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:30:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13127 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:30:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from drucker.niehs.nih.gov (drucker.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.15.129]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA19408 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:37:15 -0500 Received: by drucker.niehs.nih.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:37:15 -0500 Message-ID: <8DD3D27DC6A5D111823200A0C955FB401683AB@drucker.niehs.nih.gov> From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: GBlist: RE: Fine Homebuilding and the passage of time Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:37:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2832 it's worth noting that the passage of time does not affect the government either. (i am a contractor for Environmental Health Perspectives, published by the NIEHS, and we are also trying to get issues out in the month listed on the cover). > ---------- > From: Alex Wilson > Sent: Sunday, March 29, 1998 8:30 PM > To: Robert Bolman; greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: Re: GBlist: Fine Homebuilding and the passage of time > > At 1:06 AM -0800 3/29/98, Robert Bolman wrote: > >Will someone please explain to me why the May, 1998 issue of Fine > >Homebuilding has been out for a week now and it's not even April yet? > > > >Robert Bolman > > > I can't say for sure--perhaps it has to do with maximizing advertising > revenue. But you'll be happy to know that we don't have the same > premature > publication problem at Environmental Building News. We're hoping that > most > of our readers will get their _March_ issue before the month runs > out--they > were mailed only last week. We are hoping to get back onto a mailing > date > earlier in the month, but we'll be sure not to zoom past that target > and > mail a month or two early. > > Alex Wilson, Publisher > Environmental Building News > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 10:32:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA23510 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:32:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16067; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:22:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:18:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15646 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:18:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from eypdc04.eypae.com (eypdc04.eypae.com [205.234.22.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15642 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:18:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by eypdc04.eypae.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:25:45 -0500 Message-ID: From: Mike Fowler To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Re: Foam Foundations Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:19:18 -0500 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2833 I have been reading the foam foundation comments from John Salmen, John Straube, Buzz Burrell and Richard Kadulski and had this tangent thought. I am going on memory for this, and don't recall all the details, but I remember reading about an alternative slab on grade method of construction with a thickened slab edge with no frost / foundation wall being used in the Sweden / Finland / Norway part of the world. This method has been used for many years with no problems. From what I recall the slab, with maybe a 12" thickened edge slab at most, was placed over a bed of crushed stone which acts as a barrier and absorbs any ground heave forces from frost. What is attractive about this construction method is minimal site damage, less large machinery digging and trenching for footings and foundation walls, and less concrete material. Like you said John Salmen in your post a picture would be nice. I am a graphic / visual person and a drawing / picture does say a thousand words to me. And sorry this method does not directly answer your original question with regarding the foam. Wish I had more details to give, I could not find the article in my papers at home last night, maybe someone else can fill in more detail on this construction method. Mike. ________________________________ Michael E. Fowler Registered Architect, State of New York Einhorn Yaffee Prescott Architecture & Engineering, P.C. The Argus Building PO Box 617 Broadway at Beaver Street Albany NY 12201-0617 EYP Web Site: http://www.eypae.com/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 10:46:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA23890 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17000; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:37:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:33:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16611 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:32:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16604 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:32:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA164524; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:36:52 -0700 Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:36:51 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Mike Fowler Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: shallow foundations In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2834 Mike: It sounds to me that what you talking about are shallow foundations or rubble trenches. We use these extensively in very cold climates. The trench only goes down 2 feet, but the thickness and length (from edge of slab) of the insulation apron depends on the frost index of the specific location. Corners usually extend out 1.5 times due to greater heat loss. Our concrete grade beams are about 14" high. On some projects we use wooden (not PT) grade beams over the same rubble trench. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Thu, 2 Apr 1998, Mike Fowler wrote: > > I have been reading the foam foundation comments from John Salmen, John > Straube, Buzz Burrell and Richard Kadulski and had this tangent thought. > > I am going on memory for this, and don't recall all the details, but I > remember reading about an alternative slab on grade method of > construction with a thickened slab edge with no frost / foundation wall > being used in the Sweden / Finland / Norway part of the world. This > method has been used for many years with no problems. From what I recall > the slab, with maybe a 12" thickened edge slab at most, was placed over > a bed of crushed stone which acts as a barrier and absorbs any ground > heave forces from frost. > > What is attractive about this construction method is minimal site > damage, less large machinery digging and trenching for footings and > foundation walls, and less concrete material. > > Like you said John Salmen in your post a picture would be nice. I am a > graphic / visual person and a drawing / picture does say a thousand > words to me. And sorry this method does not directly answer your > original question with regarding the foam. > > Wish I had more details to give, I could not find the article in my > papers at home last night, maybe someone else can fill in more detail on > this construction method. > > Mike. > > ________________________________ > Michael E. Fowler > Registered Architect, State of New York > > Einhorn Yaffee Prescott > Architecture & Engineering, P.C. > The Argus Building > PO Box 617 > Broadway at Beaver Street > Albany NY 12201-0617 > > EYP Web Site: http://www.eypae.com/ > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 11:06:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24549 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:06:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18230; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:56:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:52:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17808 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:52:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17801 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 10:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.100.174.173] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 08:05:42 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Foam Foundations Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 07:58:39 -0800 x-sender: bruce@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1320618146-164089@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2835 Mike I beleive you're thinking of Frost Protected Shallow Foundations. You can read more about this technique in a back-issue of Energy Source Builder. http://oikos.com/esb/43/foundations.html The system has been promoted by the National Assoc of Home Builders for several years. We sell their manual to the system in the Iris Catalog. http://oikos.com/catalog/books/frostfoundations.html These two sources ought to give anyone a good introduction to the system. Bruce S >an alternative slab on grade method of >construction with a thickened slab edge with no frost / foundation wall >being used in the Sweden / Finland / Norway part of the world. This >method has been used for many years with no problems. From what I recall >the slab, with maybe a 12" thickened edge slab at most, was placed over >a bed of crushed stone which acts as a barrier and absorbs any ground >heave forces from frost. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 11:14:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24805 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:14:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19058; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:05:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:01:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18501 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:00:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from millkern.com (millkern.com [205.197.248.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18492 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from cpcug.org.cpcug.org (asc125.idsonline.com [207.176.21.125]) by millkern.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA16357 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:07:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980402110729.007c4310@scgcorp.com> X-Sender: joeltodd@scgcorp.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 11:07:29 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Joel Todd Subject: GBlist: embodied energy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2836 Embodied energy of a material generally includes all of the energy required to produce it, produce the constituents that go into it, transport it, install it, and, in some cases, maintain and dispose of it. Some life-cycle assessment studies also include the "inherent energy" of a material -- the energy that is "lost" by having it bound up in the material. Materials that are made from petroleum or natural gas based constituents have this inherent energy included in their embodied energy. Unfortunately, good data on embodied energy of building materials are not very available. Most of the data you see are based on studies conducted in the 1970s -- changes in manufacturing processes since then have made this information very out-of-date. There are several projects that have tried to develop up-to-date, high quality embodied energy data but they have hit major barriers. Over the next few years, we might see some better information coming out. Until better data are available, remember that embodied energy of a material is far less important (generally) than operational energy, so in a trade-off you should go for better operational efficiency. Also, you can look for huge transportation issues as a clue to high embodied energy, but I imagine most people on this list are already aware of this. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Joel Ann Todd Vice-President The Scientific Consulting Group, Inc. 656 Quince Orchard Road, #210 Gaithersburg, MD 20878-1409 Tel: (301) 670-4990 Fax: (301) 670-3815 Email: joeltodd@cpcug.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 11:43:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25605 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:43:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21612; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:33:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:29:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21033 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:29:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21029 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:29:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.106.166] (usrts3p166.port.net [207.237.106.166]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA09751 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:36:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199804021636.LAA09751@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Foam Foundations Date: Thu, 2 Apr 98 11:38:51 -0000 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2837 Mike Fowler wrote; >Wish I had more details to give, I could not find the article in my >papers at home last night, maybe someone else can fill in more detail on >this construction method. Sounds like " Design Guide for Frost- Protected Shallow Foundations" put out by NAHB. This is a continuation of work done in the Scandinavian countries on shallow foundations in the 1970's. Bruce Sullivan has it in the Iris catalog of books. Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 12:15:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26490 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:15:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23532; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:05:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:58:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22937 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:58:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22918 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 11:57:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (gl-ppp15.hevanet.com [204.119.60.35]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15807; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:04:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3523C4B5.198F6ACA@hevanet.com> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 09:02:47 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Brennan , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: moisture software? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2838 Hi, Terry-- George Tsongas at the Portland State University Mechanical Engineering Department has developed a simple program to calculate the drying potential of outdoor air supplied to an interior space. You can contact him at PSU, (503)725-4292 or george@eas.pdx.edu. Best, Mike Terry Brennan wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm inetrested in computer programs which analyze moisture in buildings. > Anything from simple calculations to complex simulations. What's out > there? What do you like? What's useful for what jobs? - Terry > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 15:26:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA03901 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04852; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:16:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:11:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04487 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:11:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04480 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:11:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from van-52-2230.direct.ca (kadulski) [209.153.226.78] by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yKqRA-0000yc-00; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 12:18:13 -0800 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: GBlist: Air Distribution Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 09:35:30 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2839 John Straube offered the following comments: > Now back to my controversial statement -- no ducts. It is quite easy to > supply fresh air to a house with very few ducts at all. The best type of > system (and this has been done for health concious customers), is to > provide small trickle ventilators over windows or equivelant in each > roon. These ventilators, in essence controlled cracks, allow a certain > minimum amount of fresh air to flow in, and an increase can be provided by > opening the ventilator more. So, each room has individual occupant > control of fresh air....... > > This air flows in becuase the house is run at a small negative pressure > (3-5 pa). Air is exhausted from baths and kitchens, and run through a > heat recovery hot water heater -- heat from stale air is removed and put > into hot water. The negative house pressure practically eleminates > moisture problems in walls due to exfiltration..... Such strategies are commercially used in residential installations in Europe. They have also been used to some degree in British Columbia on a custom, retrofit basis. To be effective, these exhaust only systems require quite airtight construction (otherwise you don't get the fresh air coming in where you want it). There is also a practical limit to the size of dwelling. Too large, and it is difficult to establish proper negative pressures. The same goes for the presence of open combustion appliances - if you got them, don't expect this type of strategy to work. The French manufacture inlets that control the amount of airflow. American Aldes distributes these in the USA. Part of the system is also a control on the exhaust. The inlet grilles allow a minimum air flow, and are humidity sensitive, so that as the humidity increases (which is the case when a person enters the room) they open up to allow a larger air flow. By design, there is also a maximum air flow that is allowed by each. Because the ventilation flows are so small, heat recovery is an option, but may be difficult to justify in the milder climate zones. A few years ago, Willmar windows in Winnipeg experimented with a heart recovery window, where the frame was designed to allow a small amount of fresh air to be drawn into the house between layers of glass. The theory is that the natural heat loss through the windows will heat the incoming air. The development didn't go too far, and they dropped the concept. I think it may be that as is often the case, there are practical limitations on suitable climate regimes, and Winnipeg (and Montreal, where they were tested) are simply too cold for this type of approach. Milder climates (say design temperatures no less than - 15 to 20C) may be the limit where such approaches work. > > > Variations on such schemes have been built and successfully operated. > Open concept planning, and the arrangment of stairways, undercut doors etc > all play a role of course. Different arrangements would be needed for > different climates. Cost need not be an obstacle, since I beleive most > homes can be built with almost no ducts and no extra cost. > The most important concept to keep in mind is that the ventilation is for people, so it must be effective - that is exhaust pollutants where they are generated, and introduce fresh air to the main living areas. ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seymour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 20:19:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA13958 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:19:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA19609; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:09:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:04:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA19227 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:04:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA19223 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:04:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA24500; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:09:54 -0800 Message-ID: <3524365B.315A3CCA@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 17:07:39 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Kadulski CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Air Distribution References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2840 I want to echo John's and Richard's comments on the potential usefulness and importance of a ductless approach. The limitations are quality of the source of air i.e. a bladder type inlet in a bedroom over a parking area may not be too good (but then parking areas should not be below bedrooms...) and as Richard mentioned building size and layout. It is not easy for a designer to consider air flow when planning a layout without consultation or some layout standardization and problems could result. Perhaps one of the useful elements of a ductless approach is that air flow then becomes an early design consideration as it should be. Air to hot water heat pump recovery units are expensive, though the logistics are great - moist air being primarily produced and exhausted at times of greatest hot water use - recovery and supply. I looked at some performance evaluations of dynamic windows because we have the flexibility of manufacturing units but felt that locking air supply into something that was having a hard enough time fulfilling its basic purpose would be a problem. Dynamic wall systems are interesting (see recent discussion of solar-wall) and I think could become very useful as a cost effective approach towards passive supply and recovery versus the more technical heat recovery options but they are UGLY as a wall system and problems of drawing air across a source of contamination still exist. I would like to hear more discussion on ductless air management. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 20:26:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA14176 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:26:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA20395; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:16:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:12:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA19882 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:12:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from sweden.it.earthlink.net (sweden-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19876 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (1Cust230.tnt4.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.114.230]) by sweden.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA14819; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 17:18:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199804030118.RAA14819@sweden.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: wliebold@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 20:16:17 -0500 To: gs11531@navix.net, GBlist From: Warren Liebold Subject: Re: GBlist: tilapia In-Reply-To: <35228968.AE7DD8AE@navix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2841 I see Tilapia in my local fish market here (Queens, NYC) with some regularity. I occasionally found it in the fish section of a large supermarketnear my old home on LI years ago. Yum! Light taste and texture. Warren At 12:37 PM 4/1/98 -0600, GERRY MARTIN wrote: >>***Sharon, I saw tilapia fillets for sale in the Publix supermarket >>yesterday. I guess they are legal to own and sell here in Florida. >>Does anyone know anything about their flavor and texture? >>I would prefer to buy pond-raised fish, rather than fish >>harvested from the open sea as I believe it is better ecologically, >>but I may be wrong about that. I have refused to buy shrimp >>ever since I saw a documentary about how much damage the >>nets do to the seafloor, and how much sealife is killed in the >>process of catching a few pounds of shrimp. Pond raised >>shrimp are more expensive, and I thought the tilapia fillets >>were quite expensive too. > >>Ardeith@Juno.com >>Walk The Path With Practical Feet! > >Ardeith, I remember Publix from when I lived in Florida years ago. >Still have lots of family there too. Evidently from what I've been >reading there's some species of Tilapia that are naturally found in >Florida. Tilapia do seem to be a bit expensive and theres a guy in >Colorado I think that only sells tilapia as long as they are dead when >they leave his place. Don't know if it's just a food thing or if he's >not allowed to sell them live. > >But from what I remember my friend saying about tilapia for eating, it >is the same fish that they took out of the Sea of Galilee in the Bible >times. He always thought they were the perfect fish to raise yourself >to eat because they have a real white colored meat and don't smell too >"fishy". Their bones are larger so it's easy to fillet them and even >eat them with the bones in without having to worry about getting those >tiny bones stuck in your throat. They are vegetarian in nature and eat >the algae and such that grows in the pond. A big 50# bag of fishfood >for about $10 or less can last up to two years if you have a small pond >(let's say 6'x12' with a filtered system including a pump for >oxygenating the water) in your backyard. I know this is true because my >friend has grown them for years and years (they repopulate themselves >rather excessively) and is still only on his second bag of fishfood. >They eat little and grow fast and large. The only problem is water >temperature. They die if the water gets too cold- 50 to 55 degrees or >so. Warm water is essential for them to thrive. If you are in the >southern part of Florida you would be able to raise them cheaply >yourself if you wanted to (once you paid the initial expense to set up >the pond/tank properly and for the fish themselves). You would need >enough of them to be self repopulating. My friend started out buying 50 >small fish to begin with at the time. Don't know what he's doing now >concerning all this. > >Sharon Eby-Martin >gs11531@navix.net > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > Warren Liebold wliebold@earthlink.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 20:50:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA14866 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:50:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA21535; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:40:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:35:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA21188 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA21184 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:35:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.11] (blf11.acadia.net [205.217.217.11]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA09852 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:42:31 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 20:43:09 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Air Distribution Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2842 Harvey Sachs' and John Straube's observations on air distribution are very interesting. John's comments on ductless air supply are in line with our experience with houses. I'm wondering if the same strategy would be feasible for high-occupancy buildings. We've done several commercial spaces recently (a nature education center, a movie theater and an organic farmers headquarters) with many folks occupying a relatively small space. We've been supplying 20 cfm per occupant for ventilation. With up to 300-person occupancy, I think it would be a challenge to supply fresh air in these quantities without ducts. But I'd love to learn I'm wrong. Any comments? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 21:19:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17131 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:19:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA23403; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:09:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:05:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA23044 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:05:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA23040 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id VAA01146 for ; Thu, 02 Apr 1998 21:10:14 -0500 Message-id: <2812993@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 02 Apr 98 21:18:30 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Air Distribution To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2843 I'm sorry if I missed something critical in this thread - is there something bad about ducts? Most of the systems described here only dispense with the supply ducts - the exhaust is still ducted. Having a fan-forced ducted supply will give you more confidence that the amount of air you design for will get to each space, plus it gives you the opportunity to do heat recovery. I've done both exhaust-only and balanced supply/exhaust, and they both have their places. I wouldn't do exhaust-only with ductless air supply in a non-residential buildng like David describes in my cold climate - I want the heat recovery (if the occupancy is not so intermittent as to not justify it.) It is interesting to do the calculations on the cost of heat recovery vs. the downsizing possible in the cooling system if an enthalpic recovery wheel is used. I calculated 2.1 tons avoided per 1000 cfm at design load in Burlington VT with a 75% efficient enthalpy wheel - cooling system savings added to more minor heating system savings should just about pay for the wheel up front, and the energy savings are gravy. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 21:33:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17463 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:33:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24238; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:23:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:19:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA23896 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:19:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA23892 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:19:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id TPJ15314; Thu, 02 Apr 1998 19:27:40 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 16:06:42 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Re: daylighting Message-ID: <19980402.170019.3438.13.goldeneagle1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4,6-7,9-15 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2844 >Prisms are good for changing the light direction. Figla Glass Corp., a >Japanese company, makes prisms embedded in window panes. The prisms are >arrays of clear acrylic glass strips. The problem is that prisms generate >up to three outgoing rays, depending on the direction of the incoming sun >rays. Therefore, they do not work very well for office applications, >unless one of the prism sides is silvered or a light shelf is added at the >window bottom to redirect the downward rays. It takes a lot of tweaking >(the prism shape) until you find the right angles that woirk for most >times of the year. Lots of raytracing is necessary to find that. Martin Moeck mmoeck@ukans.edu _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 21:52:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17952 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:52:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25204; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:43:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:39:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA24747 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:38:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24740 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:38:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-22-MAX-BTVT-04.ramp.together.net [208.5.164.22]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA16668; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:45:35 -0500 Message-ID: <35244D47.356013ED@together.net> Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 21:45:27 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Air Distribution References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2845 David: The terminal velocity of air movement adjacent to a person in an office // comercial type occupancy is a critical design element, as you are probably aware . In cooling mode a desirable air velocity of... say 50 to 70 Feet per Minute (Fpm) air movement speed and say 30 Fpm in heating mode are general design targets. One problem with Variable Air Volume Systems is the low air movement during low load/ low air volume periods.... creating complaints of uncomfortable, stuffy conditions, even though perfect space temps and humidity suround. Certain minimums are used. There are intire books on this single issue... really a sub-science. But the more I learn about radiant heating systems, the more appealing they become. Tom Anderson David M. Foley wrote: > Harvey Sachs' and John Straube's observations on air distribution are very > interesting. John's comments on ductless air supply are in line with our > experience with houses. I'm wondering if the same strategy would be > feasible for high-occupancy buildings. We've done several commercial > spaces recently (a nature education center, a movie theater and an organic > farmers headquarters) with many folks occupying a relatively small space. > We've been supplying 20 cfm per occupant for ventilation. With up to > 300-person occupancy, I think it would be a challenge to supply fresh air > in these quantities without ducts. But I'd love to learn I'm wrong. Any > comments? > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 22:49:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19277 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:49:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA27934; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:39:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:35:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA27606 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:35:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27581 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 22:35:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id VAA0000020810; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 21:42:16 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980403034446.0067d4f4@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Apr 1998 21:44:46 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: footings Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2846 >From the engineers on this list I would be most appreciative of an answer to the follow problem, one that has come up just tonight following a discussion with a concrete person. We are building in a county that has no codes--good in some ways, but obviously bad in others. In clarifying a bid for a foundation I am told they do a 'trenched frost footing' that is 8" wide only, on top of which, (if one wants a structure), above ground is formed a proper footing, ie 16" wide and 8" high. The wall sits on top of this. This is the only type of foundation footing these guys do in this county (and they are the main contractor). My question is, does this work? I plan to build a SIP (walls and roof) on top of the correct thing. Will this do? Frankly I've never heard of it. Many thanks, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 2 23:52:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA20696 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:52:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA00547; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:42:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:38:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA00246 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:38:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00242 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:38:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA27957 for ; Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:45:08 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2812993@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 23:40:47 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Air Distribution Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2847 980402 2335est Pls help me & possibly a few others follow this disc by refreshing me on the defs of Enthalpy & Entropy, and the enthalpy wheel concept. Should I recall that this is one of those areas where cap letters make a difference? Thanks jh that lit'l ole non'gineer, me ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 03:37:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA26881 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 03:37:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA06871; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 03:27:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 03:23:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA06425 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 03:22:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA06421; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 03:22:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.79] (ka2-79.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.79]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id DAA07658; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 03:29:11 -0500 X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 03:29:07 -0500 To: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Stem Wall Idea Cc: Glaiseun Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id DAB06422 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2848 Howdy, all. I've been mulling over my foundation and stem wall as planned, while I wait for the trench to dry so that I can fill it with rubble. Because we're trying to do this on an ultra-low budget, and because I'm never poured concrete into forms before, I'm a bit leery of doing it myself for keeps on the first try. So I've been racking my brain for alternatives. The roof is going to be supported on a post-and-beam frame which will sit on eight footers, so all that the stem wall has to do is support the bales, the plaster/stucco, not be a heat sink in this heating climate, and keep out crawlies. It occurs to me that if you were to put two cinder blocks side-by-side, and put two inches of insulation (rock wool or EPS or XPS) between them, you'd have a unit eighteen inches across. About the width of my two-string bales. Okay. So, let's lay down two inches of insulation, flat, to provide a thermal break between the earthen floor and the ground (we have moist ground in a heating climate; we can't easily earth-couple). Along one edge of this insulation, let's build a wall of cinder blocks, one block thick and two blocks high. Then, let's build *another* wall of cinder blocks just like the first, except that we're going to run it along inside the other one, set two inches apart. So our second wall is sitting on the slab insulation, and sticks up two inches higher therefore. Now, in between the cinder block walls we put two inches of insulation, vertically, which comes up even with the height of the inside wall. On the outside wall we get two more inches with two inches of concrete block or cinder block, or we run a 2x4 of wood, treated with Jorg's magic potion. Or some more insulation. Yeah! Over the outside of the outside wall we trowel some cement or sealant goop to seal things up. In ASCII art, it might look like this. B = bale, C = cinder block, I = insulation, E = earthen floor, o = rubble trench, ____ is the final exterior grade. BBBBBBB B B B B BBBBBBB IIIICCC CCCIC CEEEEEEEEEEEEEE C CICCCEEEEEEEEEEEEEE CCCICCCEEEEEEEEEEEEEE _________CCCIC CEEEEEEEEEEEEEE C CICCCEEEEEEEEEEEEEE CCCIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII ooooooo ooooooo ooooooo This accomplishes a bunch of things. It gives the bales about a foot of height above the finish grade, for splash-resistance. It gives us a toe-up above the interior earthen floor, for plumbing-failure-resistance. It gives us insulation under the slab and up to the straw, although not as much as for the straw bale. It's bug-proof, I think. It's inexpensive and can be corrected and fudged (to a point), so that a do-it-yourselfer is less likely to have catastrophic mistakes. For more distance from the rain-splash, you could do it this way, and it uses only a few more cinder blocks. I've added more insulation under slab, too. BBBBBBB B B B B BBBBBBB CCCIIII C CICCCEEEEEEEEEEEEEE CCCIC CEEEEEEEEEEEEEE CCCICCCEEEEEEEEEEEEEE C CIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII CCCIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII _________C Coooooooooooooooooo CCCoooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooo For added insulation, you could fill the cavities in the cinder block wall with foam peanuts (or "ghost poo", as a friend of mine calls it :). For added stability, fill the cavities with rocks. I see one potential problem: how to keep it from buckling out when you're putting the earthen floor in. Any ideas? Okay. *bracing* Tear it apart. What's wrong with it? Can it be fixed? All friendly input welcome. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.edu Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 08:14:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA02700 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:14:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13318; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:05:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:00:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12925 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:00:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA12920 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA02416 for ; Fri, 03 Apr 1998 08:04:53 -0500 Message-id: <2816089@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 03 Apr 98 08:13:14 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Air Distribution To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2849 The issue of low air requirements in VAV systems is partially due to poor building envelopes or due to high internal gains or solar control, all the result usually of poor design decisions. As the buildings get better, the air flow rates required are dependent on the air needed for ventilation, not for space conditioning, making it much less likely that VAV is needed. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 09:27:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA05448 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:27:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16915; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:18:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:14:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA16459 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:13:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA16454 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:13:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA02708 for ; Fri, 03 Apr 1998 09:18:18 -0500 Message-id: <2816827@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 03 Apr 98 09:26:39 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: radon test To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2850 Any recommendations for radon testing kits, especially with discussion as to desirability of the 48 hour test vs the longer tests. I used a 3 month test 12 years ago, and I'd like to test again. I've probably got a month max to test with windows closed. thanks Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 09:40:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA05782 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:40:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17908; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:31:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:26:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA17305 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:26:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17268; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:25:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31568; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:31:56 -0700 Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:31:56 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver Subject: GBlist: Living Machines/Solar Aquatics contacts Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2851 Does anyone have any current e-mail addresses or phone/fax #s for people like John Todd or Andrew Hellebust? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 09:52:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06043 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:52:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18731; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:43:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:39:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18252 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:38:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from november.diac.com (root@diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18248 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:38:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.64.42.87] (p87.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.87]) by november.diac.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA27637 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 14:43:39 GMT Message-Id: <199804031443.OAA27637@november.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Foundations Date: Fri, 3 Apr 98 07:46:44 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2852 On 4/3/98 1:00 AM Sacie wrote: > We are building in a county that has no codes--good in some ways, >but obviously bad in others. In clarifying a bid for a foundation I am told >they do a 'trenched frost footing' that is 8" wide only, on top of which, >(if one wants a structure), above ground is formed a proper footing, ie 16" >wide and 8" high. The wall sits on top of this. This is the only type of >foundation footing these guys do in this county (and they are the main >contractor). My question is, does this work? This is the Rubble Trench Foundation that Mike and Jorg described (which is completely different than a Frost Protected Shallow Foundation that others have mentioned). The footer trench is excavated to frost depth as usual, and full width, but then it is filled with washed and graded gravel, which is lightly compacted (getting the gravel truck to drive over it works best). A normal concrete footer is poured on top (insulated for warmth), and the wall goes up from there (flush with the plane of insulation board). Some people fill with road base instead. Where I come from in Western Colorado ("No-Code County") the Rubble Trench is also common practice, in varying degrees of quality, and many builders in the SW use it where they can get away with it. Someone told me Frank L Wright advocated it, but I'm not sure if they were trying to justify its use or if that was actually true. I've never used it where I am now due to Code. It definitly works in the right situation; the site should be fairly level, and probably not along a watercourse. The SW style of building is generally to pour a slab-on-grade (basements are unknown); in such cases, where the building above is heated, nobody I've talked to has ever seen or heard of a foundation heaving due to frost; its considered somewhat mythological, like hurricanes or mudslides (I think I'm gloating again). If I lived in Maine I might think differently, but living out here I feel the crux of the matter is simply DRAINAGE; always slope the grade away from the house for a distance of 10', no matter what system you have, and everything else will be better. Buzz Burrell Bolder Building Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 10:14:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06588 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:14:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20137; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:04:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:00:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19581 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:59:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19575 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:59:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA02889 for ; Fri, 03 Apr 1998 10:04:28 -0500 Message-id: <2817284@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 03 Apr 98 10:12:49 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: gas fireplaces/stoves To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2853 John Abrams and i are lookng into the possibility of using a gas stove to be the main heating source of cohousing units on Martha's Vineyard. What I mean by gas stove is a freestanding heating stove that looks like a woodstove but uses LPG instead. John has one in his home that is made by Vermont Castings, the woodstove people. 1) Is there an industry association we can contact which will have a list of manufacturers? 2) Does anyone have recommendations about a particular brand/model? 3) Are any of these sealed combustion? 4) Do any heat domestic hot water also? Thanks Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 10:19:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06760 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:19:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20512; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:10:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:06:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20193 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:05:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20189 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:05:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip180.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.180]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA16317; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:12:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980403152211.00715e90@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 10:22:11 -0500 To: Terry Brennan , greenbuilding From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: moisture software? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2854 At 07:00 AM 4/2/1998 -0500, Terry Brennan wrote: >Hi folks, > >I'm inetrested in computer programs which analyze moisture in buildings. >Anything from simple calculations to complex simulations. What's out >there? What do you like? What's useful for what jobs? - Terry Terry - Moist has been mentioned (I have a copy of 3.0 & have yet to use it). - Taitem Engineering had a demo of a relative humidity building analysis program that may be more than demo at this point . - I also have a program from Jacques Rosseau, dealing with rainscreen issues & permeablilty of building materials. It's a downloaded file & I can't find it at present, but will when I am not looking for it. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 10:33:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07138 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:33:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21175; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:23:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:19:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20789 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:18:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20779 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:18:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA06937; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:23:28 -0800 Message-ID: <3524FE66.1B4F182C@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 07:21:10 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "C. Dodge" CC: Greenbuilding List Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Foam Foundations References: <199804021636.LAA09751@amsterdam.interport.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2855 I wanted to straighten out any potential confusion my original post may have created. I'm certainly confused now. I was not asking about frost protected foundations though the technique of bearing on foam is used in frost protected designs for primarily unheated buildings. The technique in this case would be bearing on concrete over foam and this seems quite acceptable if the foam has suffficient strength and the concrete edge is stiff enough. What I was questioning was the potential of building -directly on foam- and what problems might be envisioned. I admit the idea may seem repugnant (it does to me as we have been looking at ways of reducing plastic usage in buildings) but then when I look at the detailing involved in a concrete stemwall or beam with foam and the efforts involved in insulating well I think the concrete is becoming a redundant element in the design - the few contributions it makes being easily accomplished in more direct ways. If an interior slab is used the foam would act as formwork and the exterior foam surface would have to be protected of course as in any exterior foam application. Here is a link for the NAHB document that Clarence mentioned http://www.cs.arizona.edu/people/jcropper/desguide.html John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. C. Dodge wrote: > Mike Fowler wrote; > > >Wish I had more details to give, I could not find the article in my > >papers at home last night, maybe someone else can fill in more detail on > >this construction method. > > Sounds like " Design Guide for Frost- Protected Shallow Foundations" put > out by NAHB. This is a continuation of work done in the Scandinavian > countries on shallow foundations in the 1970's. Bruce Sullivan has it in > the Iris catalog of books. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 10:47:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07504 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:47:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22301; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:37:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:33:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21838 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:33:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21829; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:33:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (san2asc1-61.flash.net [209.30.152.61]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA01577; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 09:39:56 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <352505AA.99D18AC@flash.net> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 09:52:10 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag Alden CC: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List Subject: Re: GBlist: Stem Wall Idea References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2856 Speireag Alden wrote: > Howdy, all. > > I've been mulling over my foundation and stem wall as planned, while I > wait for the trench to dry so that I can fill it with rubble. Because > we're trying to do this on an ultra-low budget, and because I'm never > poured concrete into forms before, I'm a bit leery of doing it myself for > keeps on the first try. So I've been racking my brain for alternatives. > > The roof is going to be supported on a post-and-beam frame which will > sit on eight footers, so all that the stem wall has to do is support the > bales, the plaster/stucco, not be a heat sink in this heating climate, and > keep out crawlies. > > It occurs to me that if you were to put two cinder blocks side-by-side, > and put two inches of insulation (rock wool or EPS or XPS) between them, > you'd have a unit eighteen inches across. About the width of my two-string > bales. > > Okay. So, let's lay down two inches of insulation, flat, to provide a > thermal break between the earthen floor and the ground (we have moist > ground in a heating climate; we can't easily earth-couple). Along one edge > of this insulation, let's build a wall of cinder blocks, one block thick > and two blocks high. Then, let's build *another* wall of cinder blocks > just like the first, except that we're going to run it along inside the > other one, set two inches apart. So our second wall is sitting on the slab > insulation, and sticks up two inches higher therefore. Now, in between the > cinder block walls we put two inches of insulation, vertically, which comes > up even with the height of the inside wall. On the outside wall we get two > more inches with two inches of concrete block or cinder block, or we run a > 2x4 of wood, treated with Jorg's magic potion. Or some more insulation. > Yeah! Over the outside of the outside wall we trowel some cement or > sealant goop to seal things up. > > In ASCII art, it might look like this. > B = bale, C = cinder block, I = insulation, E = earthen floor, o = > rubble trench, ____ is the final exterior grade. > > BBBBBBB > B B > B B > BBBBBBB > IIIICCC > CCCIC CEEEEEEEEEEEEEE > C CICCCEEEEEEEEEEEEEE > CCCICCCEEEEEEEEEEEEEE > _________CCCIC CEEEEEEEEEEEEEE > C CICCCEEEEEEEEEEEEEE > CCCIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > ooooooo > ooooooo > ooooooo > > This accomplishes a bunch of things. It gives the bales about a foot > of height above the finish grade, for splash-resistance. It gives us a > toe-up above the interior earthen floor, for plumbing-failure-resistance. > It gives us insulation under the slab and up to the straw, although not as > much as for the straw bale. It's bug-proof, I think. It's inexpensive and > can be corrected and fudged (to a point), so that a do-it-yourselfer is > less likely to have catastrophic mistakes. > > For more distance from the rain-splash, you could do it this way, and > it uses only a few more cinder blocks. I've added more insulation under > slab, too. > > BBBBBBB > B B > B B > BBBBBBB > CCCIIII > C CICCCEEEEEEEEEEEEEE > CCCIC CEEEEEEEEEEEEEE > CCCICCCEEEEEEEEEEEEEE > C CIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > CCCIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII > _________C Coooooooooooooooooo > CCCoooooooooooooooooo > ooooooooooooooooooooo > ooooooooooooooooooooo > > For added insulation, you could fill the cavities in the cinder block > wall with foam peanuts (or "ghost poo", as a friend of mine calls it :). > For added stability, fill the cavities with rocks. > > I see one potential problem: how to keep it from buckling out when > you're putting the earthen floor in. Any ideas? > > Okay. *bracing* Tear it apart. What's wrong with it? Can it be > fixed? All friendly input welcome. > > -Speireag. > > Congratulations on your creative use of ASCII art to convey your image--I'd forgotten how much can done in this limited medium by a determined mind. Now, the choice of insulation in the horizontal courses sounds critical to me. Even a little compaction will throw your dimensions off and create any number of problems (windows falling out, doors imprisoning you within for life, etc.) Do you think EPS, for instance, will take the load? Won't you need a plate of some sort between the insulation and the cinder block to distribute the load? Second--seems to me, if you have essentially two houses, one inside the other (connected only at door and window frames), any settling of the rubble, the insulation, or the ground beneath it all could have some pretty bizarre effects on the structure. Anything I can think of to rigidly connect the inner and outer walls every few blocks would also serve to conduct your heat from the inner wall to the outer, and thence to the great outdoors. Maybe some sort of rigid insulation glued to both walls would tighten it up into a single rigid structure. Third--how ya gonna make the corners work? Will you have some way to chop and section blocks for the inner wall to reduce the length by 2 inches? If the answer to this is obvious to all but me, please attribute my ignorance to limited experience building with cinder block. Actually, I've never seen cinder block used in a "double-wall-with-gap" configuration. Well, this sounds like a very interesting use of simple and inexpensive materials, and I'll be interested in following this thread to see how you solve these and other challenges as they appear. Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 11:15:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08271 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:15:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25914; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:05:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:01:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25344 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:00:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25333 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:00:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA11757 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:06:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-58.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.186) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma011639; Fri Apr 3 10:05:56 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980403110417.0073fc88@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 11:04:52 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Eco lawnmowers (Seattle) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2857 If you have a lawn in Seattle, consider this... ------------------ Last Weekend for Residents to Buy Enviro-Friendly, Government Subsidized Lawnmowers April 3, 1998 SEATTLE--(BUSINESS WIRE) via NewsEdge Corporation -- What do mowing the lawn, saving money and helping the environment all have in common? The color green. And this weekend no place will be more green than the The Fluke Corporation (on Evergreen Way) and Cheney Stadium, as environmentally-friendly, government subsidized lawnmowers go on-sale, for six hours each day, to the public at a savings as high as 50 percent off retail price. Lawncare experts and representatives from 17 local environmental agencies will be on-hand at the two events to offer advice, answer questions and give demonstrations on "grasscycling" to Puget Sound residents. The events run from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m., Saturday, April 4 at the Evergreen Way Fluke Corporation (parking lot) and Sunday, April 5 at Cheney Stadium (parking lot). This weekend's events round out the series of four in Puget Sound the past two weeks. Residents showed their enthusiasm for grasscycling and mulch mowing by turning out in droves for the first two events. The Kingdome event on March 28 attracted nearly 1,300 people and the Bellevue event at Lake Sammamish State Park drew nearly 2,000. Overall, over 1,700 mowers were sold and half of that number were brought in to be recycled. "This is an excellent opportunity for Puget Sound residents in need of a new lawnmower to get one at big savings," said Pam Bissonnette, Director, King County Department of Natural Resources. "But, more importantly, it's a great way for people to conserve resources by grasscycling." Grasscycling, or mulch mowing, is achieved by using a mower that chops grass clippings into smaller pieces and blows them down between grass plates so they don't show on the lawn. Additionally, grasscycling with an electric mower: reduces the need for fertilizers; cuts down on the amount of time and energy associated with lawn care; eliminates noise and air pollution generated by gas mowers; and reduces the need for lawn waterings. "Each year the average Puget Sound household sets out nearly a half a ton of grass clippings on the curb for pickup," said Bissonnette. " Grasscycling is a simple and responsible way for residents to help in solving that problem." New electric mulch mowers from leading manufacturers including LawnBoy, Ryobi and Toro will be made available for sale at subsidized prices to all Puget Sound residents in attendance. There will be mowers available in corded or cordless versions and they range in price from $140 and $265 each. Plus, a free bag of compost comes with the purchase of each mower. "Mulching mowers make cutting the grass less of a chore in a couple of ways," said Bissonnette. "Because they redistribute the cut grass back onto the lawn, there's no need for emptying catchers, raking, bagging or lugging grass to the curb for pickup. As a result, mowing becomes less strenuous and can be completed more quickly -- freeing up time for other, more enjoyable, activities." The events are sponsored by local environmental agencies including: King County Solid Waste Division; Seattle Public Utilities; City of Bellevue Utilities Department; Puget Sound Air Pollution Control Agency; Snohomish County Public Works; City of Tacoma; City of Federal Way; City of Tukwila; City of Redmond; City of Everett; City of Issaquah; City of Mercer Island; Tacoma/Pierce County Health Department; Pacific Energy Institute, Steel Recycling Institute, Washington Department of Ecology, and the suburban cities of King County. Compost at the event will be donated by Cedar Grove Composting, Inc. For more information on this program, members of the public can call 1-800-RECYCLE. CONTACT: Molly Brumley, 206/287-7126 | Suzette Riley, 206/296-4352 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 11:31:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08677 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:31:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27665; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:21:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:17:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27036 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:16:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp0-alterdial.uu.net (smtp0-alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27026 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:16:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop0-alterdial.uu.net by smtp0-alterdial.uu.net with ESMTP (peer crosschecked as: pop0-alterdial.UU.NET [192.48.96.27]) id QQejnl03322; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:23:14 GMT Received: from eei.org by pop0-alterdial.uu.net with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: mail.eei.org [204.254.108.2]) id QQejnl11280; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:23:14 GMT Received: from WPDomain-Message_Server by eei.org with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 03 Apr 1998 11:23:35 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 11:22:59 -0400 From: Harvey Sachs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Radon Tests Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2858 Marc Rosenbaum asks about kits for retesting radon concentrations in his house. He does not state the levels estimated in the last (long-term) test a decade or so. Here are some thoughts: 1) If the last test was "very high," presumably he has fixed the problem. If so, or if the last test was "low enough" (perhaps in the vicinity of the magic EPA 4 pCi/l, +/- 100%), then I would strongly recommend waiting until Fall and doing another long term test. 2) I see no TECHNICAL VALUE in short-term tests, except in connection with mitigation work by people who really know what they are doing, how to compensate for atmospheric pressure changes, etc. Health risk is cumulative. during the summer, when Rosenbaum has the windows open, there is unlikely to be much radon in the air, so there is virtually no additional exposure. So, there is no rush, unless he is trying to sell the house. For selling the house, one does whatever the realtor asks, except for ceertifying in any way that the number has any meaning. Just 2c worth... harvey sachs ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 12:02:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09496 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:02:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00550; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:52:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:47:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29561 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:47:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from server_7.sellen.com ([204.202.194.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29541 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:46:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by server_7.sellen.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD5EDE.045EBC30@server_7.sellen.com>; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:53:48 -0800 Message-ID: From: Lynne King To: "'Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Air Distribution Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:53:47 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2859 Marc If a goal in a commercial green building is to increase the ventilation rates for improved IAQ, then will a VAV strategy implemented to improve energy efficiency work against the increased ventilation scheme? I'm not an engineer, can you tell. I am working on a 40,000 sf commercial "going green" building. One of the strategies for a "high performance mechanical system" is to use a VAV. Another strategy for "improved air quality" is increased ventilation. Thanks Lynne King Sustainable Construction Manager http://www.sellen.com -----Original Message----- From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET [SMTP:Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET] Sent: Friday, April 03, 1998 5:13 AM To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Air Distribution The issue of low air requirements in VAV systems is partially due to poor building envelopes or due to high internal gains or solar control, all the result usually of poor design decisions. As the buildings get better, the air flow rates required are dependent on the air needed for ventilation, not for space conditioning, making it much less likely that VAV is needed. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 12:03:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09541 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:03:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00652; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:53:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:48:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29616 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:47:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29585 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 11:47:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (gl-ppp09.hevanet.com [204.119.60.29]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23846; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:53:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <352513A3.497D7165@hevanet.com> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 08:51:49 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bion D. Howard" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco lawns (Seattle) References: <3.0.32.19980403110417.0073fc88@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2860 OR, replace that grass lawn entirely with "Fleur de Lawn", a mix of grass, clover, yarrow, English daisy, alyssum and baby blue eyes. This mix will thrive with no fertilizer, no herbicides and no watering. It will look fine with only one or two mowings a year. The perennial daisy provides a scattering of pink and white in the spring. There's also a fragrant version that gives off a sweet pungent odor when cut or walked on. It's available from Hobbs & Hopkins in Portland for $19.95 a bag, which covers a 1000 sq. ft. area. Their phone is (503)239-7518, ask for the fabulous Darlene. By the way, our friendly little orchard mason bees are already hard at work pollinating all the early flowers and building next year's nests in the blocks we purchased from Brian Griffin at Knox Cellars in Bellingham, WA (360)733-3283. Best, Mike Bion D. Howard wrote: > If you have a lawn in Seattle, consider this... > > ------------------ > Last Weekend for Residents to Buy > Enviro-Friendly, Government Subsidized > Lawnmowers April 3, 1998 > (snip) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 12:37:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10412 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:37:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02300; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:27:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:23:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01961 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:22:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from foo.america.net (foo.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01949 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:22:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from newcomb-boyd.com ([204.252.122.97]) by foo.america.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06483; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:29:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199804031729.MAA06483@foo.america.net> From: "Richard M. Jones" To: Lynne King , Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 12:28:17 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: GBlist: Air Distribution In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2861 Lynne With VAV the amount of ventilation air will always be delivered. The concern is that at low loads the air distribution will not be good because the amount of cfm needed is low and the diffussers are designed to operate with a certain amount of cfm, so that the air will be mixed properly and the comfortable air velocities will be maintained at the correct distances from the diffusers. There are modulating diffussers that will automatically alter the aperature size in order to maintain proper air distribution, but everything has its drawbacks. (mixing and throw distance etc. is more of a concern with ceiling diffusers, floor delivery has the advantage of natural displacement, but velocity are still a concern with floor systems) The difficulty with HVAC design is that it has to take into account so many varied loads and occupancy levels, and maintain a comfortable and safe environment at all times, plus be energy efficient. Richard Jones HVAC Engineer --------Original Message------ > From: Lynne King > To: "'Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET'" , > "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" > Subject: RE: GBlist: Air Distribution > Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 08:53:47 -0800 > Marc > If a goal in a commercial green building is to increase the ventilation > rates for improved IAQ, then will a VAV strategy implemented to improve > energy efficiency work against the increased ventilation scheme? > > I'm not an engineer, can you tell. > > I am working on a 40,000 sf commercial "going green" building. > One of the strategies for a "high performance mechanical system" is to use > a VAV. Another strategy for "improved air quality" is increased > ventilation. > > Thanks > > Lynne King > Sustainable Construction Manager > > http://www.sellen.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 13:30:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11895 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:30:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04892; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:21:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:17:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA04523 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:16:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04519 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:16:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa7-p23.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.151]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA21750 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:24:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35252800.21DB@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 13:18:40 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco lawns (Seattle) References: <3.0.32.19980403110417.0073fc88@popd.ix.netcom.com> <352513A3.497D7165@hevanet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2862 Michael O'Brien wrote: > > OR, replace that grass lawn entirely with "Fleur de Lawn", _____________________________________________________________________ One house we worked on a couple of years ago had huge patches of Mother of Thyme, nice low ground cover that also smells great when you walk on it. It seems to be pretty drought resistant and hardy, don't know about cost though. This client had dug it up and transplated a few plugs of it years before, so it had spread alot over the years. Personally I've never had any luck with bulk wildflower plantings, if you say this one actually will establish itself, I may give it a try. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville,NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 13:41:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12157 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:41:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05697; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:31:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:27:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05149 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:27:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05137; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:27:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.79] (ka2-81.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.81]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id NAA11280; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:33:54 -0500 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199804031552.KAA24496@solstice.crest.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:34:53 -0500 To: Larry Stivers , Green Building List , strawbale@crest.org From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Re: Stem Wall Idea Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA05138 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2863 Sgrìobh Larry Stivers: >Now, the choice of insulation in the horizontal courses sounds critical to >me. Even a little compaction will throw your dimensions off and create >any number of problems (windows falling out, doors imprisoning you within >for life, etc.) Do you think EPS, for instance, will take the load? >Won't you need a plate of some sort between the insulation and the cinder >block to distribute the load? > I don't think so; they make rock wool panels and XPS which can take the load of a bale wall with no trouble. A bale wall with two courses of cinder blocks isn't much heavier. I don't know about EPS. >Second--seems to me, if you have essentially two houses, one inside the >other (connected only at door and window frames), any settling of the >rubble, the insulation, or the ground beneath it all could have some >pretty bizarre effects on the structure. > Yes, but after the first two courses of cinder blocks the walls will be straw bale, and contiguous from outside to inside. The door and window bucks will be built to handle a bit of settling, exactly because of that. >Third--how ya gonna make the corners work? Will you have some way to chop >and section blocks for the inner wall to reduce the length by 2 inches? >If the answer to this is obvious to all but me, please attribute my >ignorance to limited experience building with cinder block. Actually, >I've never seen cinder block used in a "double-wall-with-gap" >configuration. > Well, because of the way the footers work the inside wall will be a little weird anyway. However, because the outside course of blocks should be pretty tight once there's concrete inside them and/or a surfacing on the outside, the inside bit can be a little looser; I'm thinking of filling the weird spaces with insulation, and staggering the cinder blocks a bit to make that possible. Staggering them slightly won't affect their ability to bear the load. >Well, this sounds like a very interesting use of simple and inexpensive >materials, and I'll be interested in following this thread to see how you >solve these and other challenges as they appear. > Thanks for your input, Larry. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.edu Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 13:44:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12222 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:44:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06116; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:35:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:31:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05570 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:30:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05561 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:30:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.214] (pm1a26.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.156]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA10525; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:37:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:37:51 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2817284@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: gas fireplaces/stoves Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2864 At 10:12 AM -0500 4/3/98, Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: >John Abrams and i are lookng into the possibility of using a gas stove to be >the main heating source of cohousing units on Martha's Vineyard. What I mean >by gas stove is a freestanding heating stove that looks like a woodstove but >uses LPG instead. John has one in his home that is made by Vermont Castings, >the woodstove people. > >1) Is there an industry association we can contact which will have a list of >manufacturers? >2) Does anyone have recommendations about a particular brand/model? >3) Are any of these sealed combustion? >4) Do any heat domestic hot water also? > 1. Try the Hearth Products Association (703/522-0086 - from a couple years ago). 2. Vermont Castings stoves look nice. Among their wood-fired brethren, they tend not to be as advanced as some other brands I've been told, but that may not be an issue with gas-fired models. 3. I believe so. Heat N'Glo claims to be "sealed combustion," but I couldn't tell from their literature exactly what they meant by that. Unfortunately, with the rising popularity of unvented gas heaters, even finding something that _vents_ to the exterior, let along gets its combustion air from the exterior, is difficult. 4. I doubt it. This is the '90s Marc. Isn't integral water heating one of those back-to-the-land schemes that died out with Ken Kern. -Alex Wilson Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 13:54:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12567 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06820; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:45:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:41:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06436 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:40:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06370 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 13:39:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.100.174.173] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:47:24 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco lawns (Seattle) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 10:46:10 -0800 x-sender: bruce@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1320522049-363693@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2865 This reminds me of the Richard Brautigan story called "Revenge of the Lawn" in which a suburbanite dies toiling to maintain his patch of green. When we built our house six years ago, I wanted to do away with all lawn, but I gave in on a small patch for the kids to play. We planted Fluer de Lawn and like it a lot. Especially the drawf rye grass that needs only two or three mowings a year. We find that it needs reseeding, because only the daisys successfully reseed themselves. Bruce S. >OR, replace that grass lawn entirely with "Fleur de Lawn", a mix of >grass, clover, yarrow, English daisy, alyssum and baby blue eyes. This >mix will thrive with no fertilizer, no herbicides and no watering. It >will look fine with only one or two mowings a year. The perennial daisy >provides a scattering of pink and white in the spring. There's also a >fragrant version that gives off a sweet pungent odor when cut or walked >on. > >It's available from Hobbs & Hopkins in Portland for $19.95 a bag, which >covers a 1000 sq. ft. area. Their phone is (503)239-7518, ask for the >fabulous Darlene. > >By the way, our friendly little orchard mason bees are already hard at >work pollinating all the early flowers and building next year's nests in >the blocks we purchased from Brian Griffin at Knox Cellars in Bellingham, >WA (360)733-3283. > >Best, Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 15:06:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14687 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:06:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10858; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 14:57:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 14:47:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09981 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 14:47:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09965; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 14:47:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27027; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 14:54:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 14:54:20 EDT From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Stem Wall Idea To: Speireag Alden cc: Larry Stivers , Green Building List , strawbale@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2866 As has been dsicussed on this list before: EPS - 5 to 10 psi @ 10% compression XPS 30 to 40 "" "" Fibrous - varies, but 2 to 5 psi is readily available Just figure out your wall loads per running foot, divided by the wall thickness bearing on the insulation, and divide by 12" per foot. I would recommend keeping this calculated pressure at least 1/3 and preferebaly 1/5 of the numbers quoted above. That said, there should be little problem in most practical cases. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 18:02:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA20577 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:02:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA21507; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:53:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:48:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA21107 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:48:29 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: <5fa4751b.35253338@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 14:06:30 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: GreenClips Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 170 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2867 For anyone who is not receiving greenclips, it's well worth it. To SUBSCRIBE Address an email message to . In the body of the message (not the subject line) type: subscribe greenclips Samples from most recent: EDUCATING ARCHITECTS FOR A SUSTAINABLE ENVIRONMENT >A new Web site offers alternatives to the prevailing models of architecture >education. DESIGNERS CHOOSE NATIVE LANDSCAPES >A 1994 executive memorandum from President Clinton requires the use of >regional plants on federal grounds and in federally funded landscaping >projects. GRAY WATER A LIQUID ASSET IN UK >Responding to rising water costs from shortages in the UK, the British >company FIRST LOW-FLOW, NOW NO-FLOW >Toilet fixtures today use much less water than they did just a few years ago. >The No-Flush waterless urinal I am not associated with GrennClips but Chris Hammer (the editor) does a great job and although I'm sure many on this list already subscribe, others may benefit. PhilBailey SustainAbility ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 18:13:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA20902 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:13:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA22387; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:04:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:00:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA21835 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:59:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA21822; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 17:59:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA24665; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:05:17 -0800 Message-ID: <35256AA0.87B8CDF5@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 15:02:57 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube CC: Speireag Alden , Larry Stivers , Green Building List , "strawbale@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Re: Stem Wall Idea References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2868 Hi John I thought that a margin of 1/3 would be sufficient. What conditions do you see that would require the additional margin (would put some loads beyond the more readily available 40psi) John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. John Straube wrote: > As has been dsicussed on this list before: > EPS - 5 to 10 psi @ 10% compression > XPS 30 to 40 "" "" > Fibrous - varies, but 2 to 5 psi is readily available > > Just figure out your wall loads per running foot, divided by the wall > thickness bearing on the insulation, and divide by 12" per foot. I would > recommend keeping this calculated pressure at least 1/3 and preferebaly > 1/5 of the numbers quoted above. > > That said, there should be little problem in most practical cases. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube > Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group > University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg > Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 > UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 > Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 > x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 18:55:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA23701 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:55:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA23955; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:45:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:41:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA23666 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:41:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA23662 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:41:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from alee (pdx59-i48-39.teleport.com [204.202.167.245]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA27241 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 15:48:38 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <35257494.32F2@teleport.com> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 15:45:24 -0800 From: A Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Residential Ducts Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2869 We are trying to determine through phone calls to occupants whether their house would be a good candidate for improvements to their air distribution system (sealing, insulation, etc.). We're not trying to sell them anything, only devise a way to get a handle on how many homes could benefit from such improvements. What questions should we ask to do this? For example, houses that have their ducts in conditioned space probably wouldn't benefit a lot from improvements. Houses that are poorly insulated anyway probably need envelope insulation before bothering with the ducts. Maybe single story houses are better candidates than multi-story. Does anyone have suggestions based on field experience or other experience what 5 questions we should ask to screen for houses that could benefit the most? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 19:56:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA26058 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:56:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25886; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:46:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:42:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA25527 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:41:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25521 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:41:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA26660; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:58:10 -0800 Message-Id: <35258399.1DB@arb.ca.gov> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 16:49:29 -0800 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Cc: "FUGLER, DON" <"dfugler"@cmhc-schl.gc.ca> (Don Fugler), jwhite@cmhc-schl.gc.ca Subject: GBlist: moisture software? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2870 Terrry: you asked about moisture models. I recently did a quick review of moisture IAQ impact assessment. Here is info on a model at the state-of-the-art end of the spectrum: The TENWOLDE model can estimate the quantities and frequencies of surface condensation in homes. It was used by Canada Mortgage and Housing in their Wallaceburg Phase II study of moldy homes. Condensation or standing water should be eliminated from homes. (TenWolde, A., 1994. FPLRH, Version 6 model, modified 1994, PC based. Forest Product Laboratory, U.S. Department of Ag. Forest Service. Program described in: "Ventilation, humidity, condensation in manufactured houses during winter," ASHRAE Transactions, 1994, vol. 100; and "A mathematical model for indoor humidity in houses during winter," Proc. Symposium on Air Infiltration, Ventilation and Moisture Transfer, BTEC, Washington, DC.) Based on Lstiburek's recommended humidity goals, the model should use a target level of 25-35% RH in heating climates, and 35-45% RH in mixed heating and cooling climates, at 75 degrees F in order to limit relative humidities at surfaces to 70% RH, thereby preventing mold growth. Condensation and standing water are not acceptable conditions in buildings occupied by humans. (Lstiburek, J.W., 1994. Mold, Moisture, & Indoor Air Quality. A Guide for Designers, Builders, and Building Owners. Building Science Corporation, Chestnut Hill, MA.) Parts of a building can have condensation or high RH, e.g., cold walls, carpets on slab foundations, even though the average RH is not that high. Several homes in the 1993 Synertech study for NYSERDA had humidity levels near or above 60% RH, and some had obvious moisture problems and noticeable health symptoms. (Strunk, P.R., 1993. Air Leakage and the Effects of Mechanical Ventilation: Measurements in Fifty Newer Homes in New York State. SYN TR 93-516. Syracuse, NY. Prepared for NYSERDA, Albany, NY.). Hope this helps, in case you haven't already run across this or talked with Jim White, CMHC. Sebastian Moffet at Sheltair (Vancouver, BC) might also be a good contact. Best wishes, Tom -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 22:22:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA29152 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:22:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01383; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:12:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:07:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01057 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01048 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 22:07:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (st-ppp15.hevanet.com [198.5.254.189]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13157; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 19:14:41 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3525A52D.1EB2490B@hevanet.com> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 19:12:48 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: A Lee , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Residential Ducts References: <35257494.32F2@teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2871 Hi, Allen-- Your questions are being answered by Portland area researchers and weatherization contractors! You can contact Ted Haskell at the Oregon State University Extension Energy Program (503)731-4104. Ted trains weatherization and HVAC contractors in using blower doors and duct blasters and differential pressurization and safety--he can give you a pretty good idea of how to do "remote diagnostics" to pre-screen clients (maybe just to determine whether they're worth an on-site visit). If you get yourself trained and certified, your customers will be eligible for an Oregon tax credit for "premium ductwork". Best, Mike A Lee wrote: > We are trying to determine through phone calls to occupants whether > their house would be a good candidate for improvements to their air > distribution system (sealing, insulation, etc.). We're not trying to > sell them anything, only devise a way to get a handle on how many homes > could benefit from such improvements. What questions should we ask to > do this? For example, houses that have their ducts in conditioned space > probably wouldn't benefit a lot from improvements. Houses that are > poorly insulated anyway probably need envelope insulation before > bothering with the ducts. Maybe single story houses are better > candidates than multi-story. > > Does anyone have suggestions based on field experience or other > experience what 5 questions we should ask to screen for houses that > could benefit the most? > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 3 23:41:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA01897 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:41:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04639; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:28:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA04298 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:27:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA04294 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:27:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 1ZILa10380 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:34:22 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <54f7f0bc.3525b850@aol.com> Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:34:22 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Toward Tomorrow Festival Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2872 Friends, On July 23 through July 26 in Westfield Massachusetts, The Northeast Sustainable Energy Association is holding it's 14th annual Quality Building Conference in conjunction with The Timber Framer's Guild Of North America's 14th annual national conference and Renew 98 another concurrent conference on the commercialization of the renewable energy industry. All of this is being layered into a family centered solar powered music festival with consumer workshops and demos. Quite an ambitious undertaking by a couple of truly amazing organizations. NESAE and the Timber Framers Guild are comprised of many of the most interesting and innovative green builders, architects and building professionals in the world. Along with an amazing conference, it should also be a great party for those who enjoy other aspects of life outside their work. I am writing first to let those of you who haven't heard about it know it is coming up. I am also calling to request help. I volunteered to host a conference session called "Specs for Specs". The idea is to identify key elements of green residential construction that are cost effective enough to risk using in a spec house or other situation where costs have to be a major driving factor and which might also offer unique sales and marketing advantages for a builder/developer building on a speculative basis. Would any of you have any real life experiences to offer as a speaker which might enrich this discussion. Failures as well as successes are good lessons to share. Can you recommend people I might want to talk to. Speakers get no pay but gobs of glory, and a chance to attend a great conference free. All ideas on this topic both privately and on the list would be most welcome. For those who might want to be considered to speak on the subject, if you could E- mail me a brief bio along with your thoughts it would expedite the process. Thanks, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 4 00:23:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA02833 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:23:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA05791; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:13:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:09:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA05519 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:09:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA05514 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:09:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p12.ltec.net [206.158.213.22]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA18634 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:03:54 -0600 Message-ID: <3525C016.8202622A@navix.net> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 23:07:35 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: gas fireplaces/stoves References: <2817284@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2873 Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > John Abrams and i are lookng into the possibility of using a gas stove to be > the main heating source of cohousing units on Martha's Vineyard. What I mean > by gas stove is a freestanding heating stove that looks like a woodstove but > uses LPG instead. John has one in his home that is made by Vermont Castings, > the woodstove people. > > 1) Is there an industry association we can contact which will have a list of > manufacturers? > 2) Does anyone have recommendations about a particular brand/model? > 3) Are any of these sealed combustion? > 4) Do any heat domestic hot water also? > Marc, there's a great "Non-electric" catalog that Lehman's has for $3 that covers everything from dairy to toilets to farming and tools. They have Hearthstone stoves that need no electric, are fully automatic and are thermostatically controlled. With or without a chimney. They also carry America's largest soapstone stove which holds heat three times longer than iron. But enough of aesthetics... their address is P.O. Box 321 Kidron, OH 44636-0321, Ph# 330/857-5757, FAX 330/857-5785, email GetLehmans@aol.com, or the website http://hearth.com/lehmans/cookstoves.html. Don't think the gas ranges have hot water heating capabilities that I know of although the wood cookstoves do. Lehmans also carries Vermont Castings woodstoves (didn't notice any LPG). Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 4 00:43:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA03287 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:43:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA06566; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:33:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:29:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA06143 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:29:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA06133 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:29:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p12.ltec.net [206.158.213.22]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA21292 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:22:12 -0600 Message-ID: <3525C461.FDFF2A7D@navix.net> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 23:25:54 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: gas fireplaces/stoves References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2874 >4. I doubt it. This is the '90s Marc. Isn't integral water heating one of >those back-to-the-land schemes that died out with Ken Kern. only if you're a city folk... Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net stuck in the boonies by choice ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 4 01:01:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA03638 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:01:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA07433; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:51:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:47:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA07043 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:47:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07039 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 00:47:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p12.ltec.net [206.158.213.22]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA22891 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:34:58 -0600 Message-ID: <3525C75F.DCE75363@navix.net> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 23:38:40 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: tilapia and fish ponds Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2875 Okay. Still on the tilapia subject I guess. Now concerning the ponds we raise them in... is bentonite a safe product to use to seal the bottom of the pond from leaking.. when the fish are going to be eaten? I heard it was perfectly safe as it is just a milled and fired clay product. Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 4 01:22:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA04144 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:22:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA08547; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:12:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:08:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA08262 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:08:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA08258 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 01:08:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p12.ltec.net [206.158.213.22]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA25796 for ; Fri, 3 Apr 1998 23:59:18 -0600 Message-ID: <3525CD0E.DDE7141A@navix.net> Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 00:02:54 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Stem wall idea Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2876 Hi Speireag. Great pictures you made with the letters! We made our whole foundation with treated lumber and load bearing straw-bale walls (never again "load bearing"- post-and-beam is the way to go) but we didn't work with cinderblocks at all. Your method sounds pretty feasable though but I would make sure the unsulation could handle the earthen load. Are you plastering inside as well as out? We are drywalling inside and found that the lumber foundation made it convenient to attach 2x2 runners to for hanging sheetrock. We have been on an ultra-low budget as well, but keep finding that it's easy to go way over the estimated plan because of all the "incidentals". Hang in there, getting all the foundational work and plumbing, etc. in always seemed like the hardest part to us. May be it's because we hate digging dirt and found we had to dig by hand more than we wanted to because of trouble with trenchers. Sometimes spending a little extra money is worth it in the long run. I suppose that's why we contracted out the plastering job. Our friends sewed on the chickenwire, mixed their own plaster, and applied it all them selves. They said it was the longest, most time consuming job they had in the whole house (the sewing part especially). We didn't have that problem. We laid our bales flat with "cut side out" so we could have the plaster smeared into the (first trimmed with chainsaws and weedeaters) straw. Worked great on the test patch so we did the whole house that way. Saved sewing and sewing. But if you ever decided to do something like that, and you wanted plaster on the inside, you'd have to sew the chickenwire or diamondlath on the inside BEFORE you plastered directly onto the bales. Since we have the drywall, we eliminated the need altogether, but we lack the extra thermal mass the plaster would've brought inside the house. We're making it up by having brick-on-sand floors. Happy building! Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net One of the (how many?) Nebraska style straw-bale houses in Nebraska. To Joyce Coppinger, how many are there out there anyway? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 4 09:05:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA11328 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:05:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA17654; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 08:55:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Apr 1998 08:50:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17402 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 08:50:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@VINEYARD.NET [206.166.156.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17382 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 08:50:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA14169 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 08:56:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 08:56:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy26.vineyard.net(206.166.158.84) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma014108; Sat Apr 4 08:56:26 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Rubble Trench Foundations Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2877 Buzz Burrell said, " Someone told me Frank L Wright advocated it,[rubble trench foundations] but I'm not sure if they were trying to justify its use or if that was actually true. " He did, and he used it. Got the idea from observing the ability of railroad track beds (which are built the same way, but with ties and tracks instead of grade beams or footers) to carry big loads. We've used this method successfully several times. It's good where labor is cheap or free, because unless orchestrated in clever ways there ends up being lots of hand work. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 4 09:25:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA11619 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:25:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18378; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:15:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:10:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA17952 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:10:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from kayak001 (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17948 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:10:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by kayak001 (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA05565 for ; Sat, 04 Apr 1998 09:15:09 -0500 Message-id: <2836991@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 04 Apr 98 09:23:45 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Stem wall idea To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2878 --- You wrote: Are you plastering inside as well as out? We are drywalling inside and found that the lumber foundation made it convenient to attach 2x2 runners to for hanging sheetrock. --- end of quote --- The thermal testing that Oak Ridge Nat'l Lab did last year of straw bale wall showed that convection currents moving around the wall, behind the finishes (I think the inside was sheetrocked) greatly lowered the wall's R value. Similar to a fiberglass batt wall - you don't want to leave channels for air to move. My sense is that these walls really should be plastered. >From No experience, lots of opinions, Inc. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 4 09:27:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA11646 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:27:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18534; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:18:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:12:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18070 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:12:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18066 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:12:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa5-p36.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.228]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA21338 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:19:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35264039.1CB5@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 09:14:17 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: tilapia and fish ponds] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2879 Message-ID: <35263A43.3FAC@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 08:48:51 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gs11531@navix.net Subject: Re: GBlist: tilapia and fish ponds References: <3525C75F.DCE75363@navix.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GERRY MARTIN wrote: > > Okay. Still on the tilapia subject I guess. Now concerning the ponds > we raise them in... is bentonite a safe product to use to seal the > bottom of the pond from leaking.. when the fish are going to be eaten? > I heard it was perfectly safe as it is just a milled and fired clay > product. > > Sharon Eby-Martin > gs11531@navix.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ What about the organic plasticizing pond liner mix developed in Russia and used buy the New Alchemists in Central America? I don't remember the exact formula or process (manure, grass or hay layered), but I'm sure you can find it through the New Alchemy archives, or perhaps someone on the list knows. It uses all organic and readily available materials to form a "plastic" lining. Anyone remember this? Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 4 09:38:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA11810 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:38:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19198; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:22:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18772 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:21:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18768 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:21:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA95962; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:27:37 -0700 Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:27:36 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Chuck Hinckley Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: tilapia and fish ponds] In-Reply-To: <35264039.1CB5@dreamscape.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2880 I too would be interested in this natural pond liner and am ready to try it within the next 2 months if someone can find the details. Jorg Ostrowski _______________________________________________________________________ Chuck said: "What about the organic plasticizing pond liner mix developed in Russia and used buy the New Alchemists in Central America? I don't remember the exact formula or process (manure, grass or hay layered), but I'm sure you can find it through the New Alchemy archives, or perhaps someone on the list knows. It uses all organic and readily available materials to form a "plastic" lining. Anyone remember this? Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 4 09:44:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA11950 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:44:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19677; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:34:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:27:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19032 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:27:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19028 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:27:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.2] (blf2.acadia.net [205.217.217.2]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA20283 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:34:22 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:35:03 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: footings Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2881 Dear Sacie, I'm not an engineer (though I play one on television), and I'm not sure I understood your description of the footing. But think a minute about what a footing needs to do. Soils have varying but limited capacities to bear loads. If you were to stand at the bottom of the foundation trench in spike heels, you'd probably sink a bit. If you stood in the trench on snowshoes, you probably wouldn't sink. (Don't try this - just take my word for it please.) The typical reinforced concrete wall is more than adequate to bear the loads expected from your house. The reason for a footing is to distribute those loads to the soil, over an area large enough for the bearing capacity of the soil - the less the bearing capacity per square inch, the wider the footing. Here in Maine, 8 inchs thick by 16 inches wide usually works for houses, except on clay soils, where we go wider. Don't forget rebar in the footing! Here, for most houses, 2 half-inch bars (#4) usually does the trick. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 4 09:44:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA11958 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:44:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19698; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:34:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:28:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19047 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:27:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19039 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:27:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.2] (blf2.acadia.net [205.217.217.2]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA20290 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:34:31 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:35:07 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Foundations Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2882 Buzz raised a critcal point - any foundation system (except perhaps deep-driven piles) is only as good as the drainage. Ever see railroad tracks frost-heave? They don't - three feet of stone ballast making a difference. On the other hand, even concrete and steel eventually fail in the presence of freezing water. The Taoists had it right. Off subject: What did the Buddhist say to the hotdog vendor? "Make me one with everything." David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 4 09:50:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12063 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:50:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA20127; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:41:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:34:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19682 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:34:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19670 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:34:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA77612; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:40:02 -0700 Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:40:02 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Chuck Hinckley Cc: gs11531@navix.net, GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: tilapia and fish ponds In-Reply-To: <35264039.1CB5@dreamscape.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2883 A book that may be relevant is entitled: "Earth Ponds" by Tim Matson (1982). It also talks about talapia. A recent message to this or the strawbale listserve gave the address for his updated book on the same topic. If anyone still has that mesage, please repost. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 4 10:13:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12479 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:13:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20978; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:03:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:56:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA20566 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:56:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA20562 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 09:56:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa5-p36.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.228]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA01416 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:03:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <35264A88.4C2E@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 09:58:16 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: tilapia and fish ponds] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2884 Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > I too would be interested in this natural pond liner and am ready to try > it within the next 2 months if someone can find the details. Jorg Ostrowski > A starting point for further research into aquaculture in general would be New Alchemists archives at: http://vsc.cape.com/~afs/greencenter/home.htm Unfortunately these articles aren't available electronically, but there is wealth of information stored here. Somewhere I have the 'Book of the New Alchemists" and in it is a description of the process, when I find it I could copy off the instructions and forward them to you. I'll keep looking for other info, as I'm also contemplating a another pond and would like to try this system this time. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 4 10:46:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA13085 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:46:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22039; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:37:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:30:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21717 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:30:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21713 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:30:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip48.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.48]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA17747; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:37:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980404154728.00d069a0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 10:47:28 -0500 To: A Lee , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Residential Ducts Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2885 At 03:45 PM 4/3/1998 -0800, A Lee wrote: >Does anyone have suggestions based on field experience or other >experience what 5 questions we should ask to screen for houses that >could benefit the most? 1 - Are you heating AND cooling ? 2 - Is there an air handler in the attic ? 3 - Are there returns in every room ? 4 - If single return, how big is it ? 5 - Are your bills higher than $xxx (you ought to be able to figure out a base regional heating and/or cooling cost) ? Let us know what works & the results !! best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 4 10:57:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA13290 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:57:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22532; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:48:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:41:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22206 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:41:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22199 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:41:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA10816; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:47:11 -0800 Message-ID: <3526556C.C2F915ED@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 07:44:44 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Pond Liners (was tilapia, etc.) References: <35264039.1CB5@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2886 Thank you Chuck. I mentioned this process about a year ago and could not remember the reference or the term used to describe it. Isn't it wonderful when people stand in for failing memory. Now I think the process might be described in book by John Todd and if not it is one of the journals. If I can find the book... The process is naturally occurring and was investigated in Russia at some lakes that were formed on gravel deposits. The article described methods that were used to create some water collection basins on a volcanic island (coconut husks were used). The process is quite simple - anaerobic decomposition of some organic material. Naturally it is a progressive and slow process. I have been observing a a natural depression in an area of heavy run-off collect and retain more water every year. To create a membrane grass, hay, straw, etc. is laid in a thick mat in a depression and the process can be accelerated by covering everything with plastic for a year or so. The biological layer that forms on a bed of sand under a head of water in a SSF is similar or possibly could be used to similar effect once it becomes established enough to prevent water passage. It would be interesting to try this. I will try and find the original reference and commit it to memory once more. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Chuck Hinckley wrote: > What about the organic plasticizing pond liner mix developed in Russia > and used buy the New Alchemists in Central America? I don't remember the > exact formula or process (manure, grass or hay layered), but I'm sure > you can find it through the New Alchemy archives, or perhaps someone on > the list knows. It uses all organic and readily available materials to > form a "plastic" lining. Anyone remember this? > > Chuck Hinckley > Ash Creek Design > Earlville, NY > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 4 11:14:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13617 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 11:14:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23109; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 11:05:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Apr 1998 11:00:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22772 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:59:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22768 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:59:50 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LpI10689; Sat, 04 Apr 1998 11:04:12 EST To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca Cc: ashcreek@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 10:08:21 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: tilapia and fish ponds] Message-ID: <19980404.101909.3806.0.sbtauto@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-11,13-40 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2887 I have mentioned before I am using bentonite in my pond (20x20). I am still trying to the get the land and waterscape plants to take (so far - so good). We may be able to try fish this summer. I'll let you know. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Sat, 4 Apr 1998 07:27:36 -0700 (MST) "Jorg D. Ostrowski" writes: >I too would be interested in this natural pond liner and am ready to >try >it within the next 2 months if someone can find the details. Jorg >Ostrowski >_______________________________________________________________________ >Chuck said: "What about the organic plasticizing pond liner mix >developed >in Russia and used buy the New Alchemists in Central America? I don't >remember >the exact formula or process (manure, grass or hay layered), but I'm >sure >you can find it through the New Alchemy archives, or perhaps someone >on >the list knows. It uses all organic and readily available materials to >form a "plastic" lining. Anyone remember this? > >Chuck Hinckley >Ash Creek Design >Earlville, NY > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 4 14:12:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18257 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 14:12:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29191; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 14:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:58:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA28868 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:58:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@VINEYARD.NET [206.166.156.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA28861 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 13:58:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA19194 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 14:05:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 14:05:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from csy6.vineyard.net(206.166.158.48) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma019111; Sat Apr 4 14:05:07 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: tilapia and fish ponds Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2888 To Chuck, Jorg, and others - On Monday I'll be visiting Hilde Maingay and Earle Barnhart, [old charter] New Alchemists, who now have a landscaping company called The Great Works. They do fish ponds often. I will ask them what they know about the pond liner mix you speak of, and let you know what I find out. Incidentally, after the New Alchemy Institute closed its doors years ago, it stood empty for years until Hilde and Earle organized a cohousing group several years ago. They bought the farm and have been revitalizing it and turning it into a cohousing community. It's now called Alchemy Farm. I'll be visiting them in their new home which is attached to the famous old (hopefully now restored) Ark. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 4 19:13:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA23869 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 19:13:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA07639; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 19:04:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Apr 1998 18:59:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA07327 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 18:59:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from animas.frontier.net (root@frontier.net [199.45.141.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA07323 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 18:59:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontier.net (pm3-3-150.frontier.net [199.45.211.150]) by animas.frontier.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29883 for ; Sat, 4 Apr 1998 17:06:11 -0700 Message-ID: <3525BF6A.ABB921FC@frontier.net> Date: Fri, 03 Apr 1998 22:04:43 -0700 From: Barry Goldberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: gas heaters References: <199804031841.NAA06455@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2889 I've installed several thru the wall gas room heaters. They hang on an outside wall and have a double wall vent that exhausts straight out and pulls combustion air in thru the outer tube. They're not super efficient, have pilot lights, but work good where you don't want to vent thru the roof. -- Barry Goldberg barryg@frontier.net Durango,Co San Juan Cohousing, near Durango, CO, where we're looking for a few more folks. Check us out at: http://shell.rmi.net/~ganesh/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 5 03:43:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA04055 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 03:43:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA20326; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 03:34:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 5 Apr 1998 03:28:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA19552 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 03:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA19541 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 03:27:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p5.ltec.net [206.158.213.15]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA09745 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 01:18:14 -0600 Message-ID: <35272130.D163374B@navix.net> Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 00:14:09 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: tilapia and fish ponds References: <0c7e25229020548UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2890 Susan Dugan wrote: > Sharon, > Bentonite is a fairly common and very stable product for lagoon lining. In > SC, they use bentonite for wastewater treatment lagoons to limit leakage to > the groundwater. > There are fish pond operations that use bentonite for their lagoons, they > keep the oxygen level up with diffused aeration (blower & piping with > perforations). > Enjoy your fish ponds. > Thanks > Michael > South Carolina Thanks for the confirmation on bentonite. It costs less than $5 for a 50# bag around here in Nebraska and is also used for wastewater lagoons (which are probably more popular than septic systems in this area). I believe it takes about an inch of the stuff to seal the bottom of the pond well. I wonder how that compares (with effect and price) to the other method that's being talked about (straw, hay, etc.) that they use in Russia. Thanks again, Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 5 03:43:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA04054 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 03:43:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA20324; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 03:34:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 5 Apr 1998 03:28:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA19542 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 03:27:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA19537 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 03:27:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p5.ltec.net [206.158.213.15]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA09701 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 01:17:56 -0600 Message-ID: <352716FA.B4A9FB4E@navix.net> Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 23:30:35 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Tilapia and fish ponds Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2891 >Unfortunately these articles aren't available electronically, but there >is wealth of information stored here. Somewhere I have the 'Book of the >New Alchemists" and in it is a description of the process, when I find >it I could copy off the instructions and forward them to you. I'll keep >looking for other info, as I'm also contemplating a another pond and >would like to try this system this time. >Chuck Chuck, would it be too much trouble to have you send me a copy as well? Thanks in advance, Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net RR 1 Box 79 Dwight, NE 68635 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 5 03:43:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA04053 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 03:43:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA20322; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 03:34:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 5 Apr 1998 03:28:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA19556 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 03:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA19544 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 03:27:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p5.ltec.net [206.158.213.15]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA09695 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 01:17:50 -0600 Message-ID: <352713E5.209908ED@navix.net> Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 23:17:26 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Stem wall idea References: <2836991@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2892 Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > --- You wrote: > Are you plastering inside as well as out? We are drywalling inside and > found that the lumber foundation made it convenient to attach 2x2 > runners to for hanging sheetrock. > --- end of quote --- > The thermal testing that Oak Ridge Nat'l Lab did last year of straw bale wall > showed that convection currents moving around the wall, behind the finishes (I > think the inside was sheetrocked) greatly lowered the wall's R value. Similar > to a fiberglass batt wall - you don't want to leave channels for air to move. > My sense is that these walls really should be plastered. > > >From No experience, lots of opinions, Inc. > > Marc Rosenbaum Marc, I believe you are right about that; however, if we had 2x4 walls with the air currents behind the sheetrock I'd be a lot more worried than with our 18" thick bales that are completely sealed with plaster on the outside. Frankly our biggest concern is what to do with the eaves. The cold winter winds blew right into the seams and edges this winter (of course the house isn't finished either) and you could feel air movement between the top of the walls and below the roof at places. Birds like to perch under the metal roof in the airspace where the purlins are too. Not that I mind birds. Just seems we have a few things to deal with. Any ideas on the eaves out there? Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 5 10:42:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11895 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:42:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28826; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:26:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28164 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:26:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28150; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18490; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:33:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 09:33:32 EDT From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Stem Wall Idea To: John Salmen cc: Speireag Alden , Larry Stivers , Green Building List , "strawbale@crest.org" X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <35256AA0.87B8CDF5@cow-net.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2893 I chose less than 1/3 because I am not sure -- hence the engineering knee jerk reaction of keeping loads low. If you are serious and need the load capacity call Dow and ask -- they will have THE answer. I have experience in the structural design of polymer plastic elements for buildings and the loads that can practically be used are always much lower than the ultimate because of creep and temperature effects. On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, John Salmen wrote: > I thought that a margin of 1/3 would be sufficient. What conditions do you see > that would require the additional margin (would put some loads beyond the more > readily available 40psi) > > John Straube wrote: > > thickness bearing on the insulation, and divide by 12" per foot. I would > > recommend keeping this calculated pressure at least 1/3 and preferebaly > > 1/5 of the numbers quoted above. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 5 10:43:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11917 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28977; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:33:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:29:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28364 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28356 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:29:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA60272; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 08:31:07 -0600 Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 08:31:06 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Chuck Hinckley Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: tilapia and fish ponds In-Reply-To: <35264A88.4C2E@dreamscape.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2894 You said: "Somewhere I have the 'Book of the New Alchemists" and in it is a description of the process, when I find it I could copy off the instructions and forward them to you. I'll keep looking for other info" ____________________________________________________________________________ Chuck: I too would be very interested. Jorg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 5 10:51:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12042 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:51:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29371; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:41:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:37:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29080 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:37:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29076 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 10:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA94524; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 08:43:03 -0600 Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 08:43:02 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: ashcreek@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Pond Liners (was tilapia, etc.) In-Reply-To: <3526556C.C2F915ED@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2895 John: Further to your message of below, when you find that reference and those instructions on how to make that natural liner, please let us all know. Thanks. Jorg __________________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, John Salmen wrote: > > Now I think the process might be described in book by John Todd and if not it > is one of the journals. If I can find the book.. I will try and find the > original reference and commit it to memory once more. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 5 13:36:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15624 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 13:36:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05081; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 13:26:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 5 Apr 1998 13:22:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA04769 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 13:21:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04765 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 13:21:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA121066; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 08:15:37 -0600 Date: Sun, 5 Apr 1998 08:15:37 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "John R. Abrams" Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: tilapia and fish ponds In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2896 John: Thanks for keeping us in mind and fitting our needs into your work schedule. Perhaps you could ask them about the use of clay (and any other natural material) as a liner, and the best source of construction instructions (ie. book or article), if possible. Thanks for considering our request. Jorg ___________________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 4 Apr 1998, John R. Abrams wrote: > > To Chuck, Jorg, and others - > > On Monday I'll be visiting Hilde Maingay and Earle Barnhart, [old charter] > New Alchemists, who now have a landscaping company called The Great Works. > They do fish ponds often. I will ask them what they know about the pond > liner mix you speak of, and let you know what I find out. Incidentally, > after the New Alchemy Institute closed its doors years ago, it stood empty > for years until Hilde and Earle organized a cohousing group several years > ago. They bought the farm and have been revitalizing it and turning it > into a cohousing community. It's now called Alchemy Farm. I'll be > visiting them in their new home which is attached to the famous old > (hopefully now restored) Ark. > > John Abrams > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 5 21:15:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA27521 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:15:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21690; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:06:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:01:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA21389 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:00:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA21385 for ; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 21:00:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id UAA0000018447; Sun, 5 Apr 1998 20:07:47 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980406011020.00677abc@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 20:10:20 -0500 To: "John R. Abrams" From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Rubble Trench Foundations Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2897 Going back to Rubble Trench foundations, a conversation with the local inspector indicates one needs to have these 'engineered' for local soil conditions, that what works in one area, may not in another. Any comments? Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 6 09:29:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA11046 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13680; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:19:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:14:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13267 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from golden.brown.edu (golden.brown.edu [128.148.128.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13263 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from KurtT.brown.edu (bootp-129.envstudies.brown.edu [128.148.87.129]) by golden.brown.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA18404; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:21:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980406092205.0086a880@netspace.org> X-Sender: kurt@netspace.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 09:22:05 -0400 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , GreenBuilding Listserver From: Kurt Teichert Subject: Re: GBlist: Living Machines/Solar Aquatics, NAI Archives In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2898 Greetings, Here is current contact information: John Todd Ocean Arks International 233 Hatchville Rd, East Falmouth, MA 02536-4051 Phone: (508)540-6801 (note that this is the address of the former New Alchemy Institute) and, the spin-off company that does design-build Ecological Engineering Associates 13 Marconi Lane Marion, MA 02738 508.748.3224 508.748.9740 fax eea@tiac.net http://www.solaraquatics.com/ and, many of the New Alchemy publications are still available through "The Green Center." Though little of the aquaculture-related material is available on the web, many of the later publications are on line: http://vsc.cape.com/~afs/greencenter/list-aqua.htm Hope this helps. Regards, Kurt (old-Alchie from the 80s) Kurt Teichert Environmental Coordinator, Brown University Box 1943, Providence, RI 02912-1943 Kurt_Teichert@Brown.EDU, Voice:401-863-7837 Fax:401-863-3503, Pager:401-925-3950 http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Brown_Is_Green/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 6 09:46:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA11552 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:46:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14792; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:36:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:32:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14305 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:32:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14298 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:32:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa8.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.137]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA20924 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 09:38:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3528D9AC.5C46@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 09:33:32 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: tilapia and fish ponds] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2899 Message-ID: <3528D4B7.621@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 09:12:23 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gs11531@navix.net Subject: Re: GBlist: tilapia and fish ponds References: <0c7e25229020548UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> <35272130.D163374B@navix.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit GERRY MARTIN wrote: > Thanks for the confirmation on bentonite. It costs less than $5 for a 50# bag > around here in Nebraska and is also used for wastewater lagoons (which are > probably more popular than septic systems in this area). I believe it takes > about an inch of the stuff to seal the bottom of the pond well. I wonder how > that compares (with effect and price) to the other method that's being talked > about (straw, hay, etc.) that they use in Russia. > > ______________________________________________________________________ Here is a link I found doing a search on Lycos for "natural pond liner": http://www2.itexas.net/~bentonite/ I wonder if your one inch is measured before or after expansion. Sodium Bentonite sounds pretty inocuous, should serve the purpose, except it did say something about only achieving a 94% seal. As far as cost comparison, it would depend on cost and availability on your organic materials, if you were able to use waste products that are readily available to you, the "Russian" liner has got to be cost effective. What is the total cost of the Bentonite per 100 SQ FT? PS. For any looking to relocate to West Texas, these people at the Bentonite site will sell you the ranch too. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 6 10:22:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12428 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:22:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16690; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:12:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:08:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16341 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16337 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.237.107.206] (usrts4p206.port.net [207.237.107.206]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA24432 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:15:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804061415.KAA24432@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: tilapia and fish ponds Date: Mon, 6 Apr 98 10:15:50 -0400 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2900 >A book that may be relevant is entitled: "Earth Ponds" by Tim Matson >(1982). It >also talks about talapia. A recent message to this or the strawbale >listserve >gave the address for his updated book on the same topic. If anyone still >has that mesage, please repost. >Jorg Ostrowski Matson's 1997 book is " Earth Ponds Sourcebook - The Pond Owners Manual and Resource Guide". Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 6 10:52:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA13074 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18098; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:42:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:38:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17650 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:38:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc513.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17645 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 10:38:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from IEL#u#MAIL-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 06 Apr 1998 10:45:25 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 10:45:10 -0400 From: Arnie Katz To: greenbuilding@crest.org, allenlee@teleport.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Residential Ducts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2901 Based on our experience over the last 8 years or so, you only have to ask one questions: Do you have ducts? That's only a bit facetious. Questions about high bills, comfort problems, persistent dust, or allergy-type problems may point you in the right direction, but so far we haven't found any reliable predictors of serious duct problems. Arnie Katz Building Science Specialist Advanced Energy 909 Capability Drive Raleigh, NC 27606 919/857-9029 FAX: 919/832-2696 akatz@aec.ncsu.edu >>> A Lee 04/03/98 06:45PM >>> We are trying to determine through phone calls to occupants whether their house would be a good candidate for improvements to their air distribution system (sealing, insulation, etc.). We're not trying to sell them anything, only devise a way to get a handle on how many homes could benefit from such improvements. What questions should we ask to do this? For example, houses that have their ducts in conditioned space probably wouldn't benefit a lot from improvements. Houses that are poorly insulated anyway probably need envelope insulation before bothering with the ducts. Maybe single story houses are better candidates than multi-story. Does anyone have suggestions based on field experience or other experience what 5 questions we should ask to screen for houses that could benefit the most? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ! ! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 6 11:40:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14305 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:40:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21634; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:30:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:26:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21215 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:26:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21211 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:26:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LCJ24571; Mon, 06 Apr 1998 11:32:30 EDT To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 11:03:39 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: gas fireplaces/stoves Message-ID: <19980406.113451.6614.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <2817284@lyme.valley.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-8 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2902 Marc, I don't know about industry organizations but if you know any architects you might want to check out their Sweets Catalogue. This should have a section on heating equipment and could at least be a jumping off point. Beverly, Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 6 15:12:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA21927 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:12:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05972; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:03:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:58:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05394 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:58:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05384 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 14:58:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p19.ltec.net [206.158.213.29]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA20446 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:42:09 -0500 Message-ID: <352922B2.E868ED74@navix.net> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 12:45:07 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: tilapia and fish ponds References: <0c7e25229020548UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> <35272130.D163374B@navix.net> <3528D4B7.621@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2903 Chuck Hinckley wrote: > I wonder if your one inch is measured before or after expansion. Sodium > Bentonite sounds pretty inocuous, should serve the purpose, except it > did say something about only achieving a 94% seal. As far as cost > comparison, it would depend on cost and availability on your organic > materials, if you were able to use waste products that are readily > available to you, the "Russian" liner has got to be cost effective. What > is the total cost of the Bentonite per 100 SQ FT? The Bentonite is less that $5 per 50# bag and must be applied at 1-2#'s/sq.ft. so it would take 2-4 bags for 100 sq.ft. of area in a pond. For us, that would be $20-$40 for ours total. We don't have water in ours yet, but we do have soil that's called "silty clay loam" by the folks that did my soil sample down at the college. "IF" we even need the bentonite, I'm sure it won't be too much. Our neighbor has a larger pond and has always had leaking problems so I'm planning on passing all this information on to him. Now as for the Russian method, I'm still VERY interested in that because we conveniently have LOTS of leftover straw from building our house. That method might cost us nothing or next to nothing to implement. Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 6 15:19:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22075 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06733; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:10:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:06:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06228 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:05:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06224 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa3-p35.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.99]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA29135; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <352927FF.233F@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:07:43 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: Kevan & stephan Subject: GBlist: Ha'va'd Bibliography Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2904 For those of you who might be curious about what is being taught at Harvard these days, the following is a URL I came across while searching for the "Book of the New Alchemists". The URL is the biblography for the course "The Ethical and Religious Dimensions of the Environmental Crisis", I believe, mostly from the Loeb Library. http://divweb.harvard.edu/csvpl/ee/bib/clbc-006.htm You can follow the links to some interesting and thought provoking sites like The Harvard Seminar on Environmental Values: http://divweb.harvard.edu/csvpl/ee/hsev/ or The Environmental Ethics & Public Policy Program: http://divweb.harvard.edu/csvpl/ee/ Some very interesting reading if one has some time to spare, if not, some valuable resources worth bookmarking. Chuck Hinckley Ash creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 6 15:24:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22190 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:24:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA07471; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:11:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06850 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06845 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:10:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p19.ltec.net [206.158.213.29]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA19408; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 13:34:28 -0500 Message-ID: <352920E5.8DA406AB@navix.net> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 12:37:26 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" , GBlist Subject: GBlist: Re: waste water lagoons References: <1.5.4.32.19980406153409.006c1100@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2905 David F. Lambertson wrote: > Sharon, out of curiousity, where do you live in Nebraska? We're in > Lawrence, KS and just two weeks ago destroyed a unused lagoon. Hope we > didn't make a mistake, but we have a pond that this was above, could see no > future use for it, nor any reason why anyone ever put it in in the first > place since it was far from any possible house site. Now the runoff from > the land can continue down to the pond. As soon as it dries out (had 2 1/2" > of rain last week with more to come I'm afraid) we will plan that and > another nearly two acres in native grass. Sacie Lambertson Sacie, Hi! I've been lurking and participating in some of the threads here and there and been watching and reading. I was pleasantly surprised to see your name as I have liked some of your questions and responses so many times on different issues. We're rurally located in between towns about 30 minutes northwest of Lincoln, NE. We go to a town called Valparaiso the most, live closest to Loma, have a Dwight address, and have a Brainard Phone number, and call locally (only) to David City. Great huh? It works for us. We have a couple of acres we're still trying to clean up and are still trying to finish our straw-bale house. We had to have our neighbor and his tractor dig out an area in the back so we could use the dirt to fill in around our foundation. We thought we might use the hole for a lagoon but decided we liked the greywater/composting toilet idea better. So now we want to turn it into a fish pond. Want to do it right from the start. Keep in touch. You can email me directly. Sharon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 6 15:41:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22603 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:41:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09182; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:32:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:26:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA08496 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:26:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA08484 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:26:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA05790 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:33:27 -0400 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-44-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.44]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA07671 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 15:33:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980406153055.006c0f20@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:30:55 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Re: load-bearing foams and efficient water heaters In-Reply-To: <199804011924.OAA25322@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2906 With regard to load bearing foams: Pittsburgh Corning (800-359-8433) makes FoamGlas, which is just what it almost spells, foamed glass. It can be had with compressive strengths over 200 psi. I would think it would be much more dimensionally stable than foams. With regard to efficient and sealed combustion water heaters: I have a not-too-efficient sealed combustion, direct vent water heater -- a Mor-flo unit -- the type with two concentric pipes, with flue gasses out the inner pipe and combustion air in between the two pipes. The outlet is through the band-joist near ground level,and is code-approved distance from any window, but I have found that the flue gasses come into a window on the second floor with their annoying stink on a summer day or night. This has led me to recommending that all flues should go out through the roof, which would eliminate the type of water heater I presently have. I have heard similar complaints from other band-joist-vented water heaters -- can't open second floor windows above or nearly above. With regard to noise on Polaris water heaters -- what about a muffler?? I wonder what the manufactuer would say. Maybe between roof exhaust and a muffler they would be acceptable noise-wise. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 6 17:25:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA25200 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:25:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA15798; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:15:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:10:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15244 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:09:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15240 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p19.ltec.net [206.158.213.29]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA08333 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 16:12:59 -0500 Message-ID: <3529460C.78E57EF4@navix.net> Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 15:15:57 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: solar food dryers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2907 Jorg, could you tell me where you got your solar food dryer? It sounds really interesting. -Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 6 17:30:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA25311 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:30:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16295; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:21:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:16:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15784 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:15:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15774 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 17:15:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.87]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 3163200 ; Mon, 06 Apr 1998 17:21:25 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980406172103.0069acac@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 17:21:03 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Is Air Conditioning Ever Green? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2908 Thanks to those who responded to my post a little while back. Just heard that Carrier has recently come out with a line of residential air conditioners (split systems) that use a non-ozone destroying refrigerant (Carrier calls it Puron, it is R410A) to replace R22. R410A is claimed to be non-toxic and non-flammable and improves efficiency compared to R22. SEER is listed at 12 to 14. Any comments? More information at www.carrier.com. Click on the Puron item in the left hand frame for some Carrier propoganda. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 6 20:26:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA29883 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:26:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA25335; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:16:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:11:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA25018 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:11:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@VINEYARD.NET [206.166.156.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA25013 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:11:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA13114 for ; Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:18:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:18:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dsy11.vineyard.net(206.166.158.69) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma013035; Mon Apr 6 20:18:10 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Pond builders Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2909 I spoke this morning with Earle Barnhart and Hilde Maingay, two original New Alchemists who were responsible for many of the biological and agricultural advances that went on there in the glory years. Earle said that the Russian substance discussed here was discovered when people noticed ponds in places that didn't seem to make sense. Upon investigation, they found a gummy substance, made up of semi-decomposed plant material, that was doing the job. This was in sub-arctic, cold regions. The New Alchemists experimented with this material in tropical climates and, in fact, in temperate climates (Ron Zweig, noted aquaculturist who some of you will remember, built such a pond on Cape Cod). It didn't work. In more moderate climates, the material continued to de-compose, and subsequently leaked. Bye bye pond. Earle's comments about bentonite (qualified by his comment that he has little direct experience with it) were that it works well on bottoms, but requires very gentle slopes (or it slumps over time) and is a poor substance where people or animals must get close to the pond because, of course, the material has to come above the water level, and it's very slick and slimy and nothing will grow in it. He hedged his remarks by saying that it would be good to question someone who has more experience with the material than he. Earle and Hilde use rubber roofing liners - EPDM, Butyl -when they make ponds that are part of a landscape. We have built a number of ponds - for livestock, fire protection, recreation, and wildlife habitat. In our area there are pockets of clay. We line our ponds with a foot of clay (anything less, cows and deer will puncture with their hoofs). The clay works just fine, if you've got it. Earle gnerously offered his advice about pond construction (he and Hilde have a wealth of experience). They do not have e-mail, but if you FAX them at (508) 563 - 5955, they will respond. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 7 10:17:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20383 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:17:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26714; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:07:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:01:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26285 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:01:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26279 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:01:43 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KGO10689; Tue, 07 Apr 1998 10:05:53 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:05:45 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Pond builders Message-ID: <19980407.092049.3710.4.sbtauto@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-11,13-27 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2910 Well, it is necessary to dispute claims that bentonite won't permit plants because there are numerous examples here in Boerne with cattails and other plants growing in bentonite ponds. I don' t know that they are healthy, happy plants but they are there. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Mon, 6 Apr 1998 20:18:38 -0400 (EDT) "John R. Abrams" writes: >Earle's comments about bentonite (qualified by his comment that he has >little direct experience with it) were that it works well on bottoms, >but >requires very gentle slopes (or it slumps over time) and is a poor >substance where people or animals must get close to the pond because, >of >course, the material has to come above the water level, and it's very >slick >and slimy and nothing will grow in it. He hedged his remarks by >saying >that it would be good to question someone who has more experience with >the >material than he. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 7 11:59:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23690 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04903; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:43:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04359 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:43:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04351 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 11:43:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA06943 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 10:49:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va15-50.ix.netcom.com(207.223.179.114) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma006908; Tue Apr 7 10:49:38 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980407113352.007388e8@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 11:48:32 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: RE- DOE- FYI Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2911 >> U.S. Energy Secretary Pena to resign Energy Secretary Federico Pena, one of President Bill Clinton's longest serving cabinet members, will resign in June, the White House said on Monday. (C. Reuters [WS],) | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 7 12:54:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24949 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:54:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08193; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:44:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:39:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA07754 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:39:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07748 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:39:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA08825 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:46:09 -0400 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-76-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.76]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA24562 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:46:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980407124341.006c0b34@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 12:43:41 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Re: high Efficiency Water Heaters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2912 On the subject of high efficiency water heaters -- Does anyonee have any experience with the Voyager, made by the manufactuerrs of Superstore, Heat Transfer Products 800-323-9651? Vermnont Energy Investment Corporation has spec'd a few of these and they seem to be OK after a year and a half. These are condensing water heaters, with similar efficiency to Polaris, built sort of like a mini Aerco condensing boiler, with a "hydra" head of exhaust pipes going through the stainless steel tank. They make a variety of sizes. Noise is an issue -- the salesman says they are louder than Polaris but that they can be fitted with a muffler that looks like a hot-rod glass-pack muffler that is made for the Hydropulse units. The salesman says go out the roof if there are buildings adjacent. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc. Montpelier VT USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 7 14:24:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA27903 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:24:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13264; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:13:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:09:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12880 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:09:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12876 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 14:09:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p5.ltec.net [206.158.213.15]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA14395 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 12:51:24 -0500 Message-ID: <352A684E.EDE90D36@navix.net> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 11:54:23 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: on-demand wood-fired hot water heater Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2913 For all those who might be interested in heating hot water using wood scraps or kindling (by the way, I'm not affiliated with this company; I just like promoting usefull products and helping people save a few bucks before the prices go up)... The AquaFire by HotPro has a wonderful on demand water heater whose price is about to go up to $629, plus $50 UPS as of May 1, '98. Until then you can still buy one at the original price (as long as orders are postmarked by April 30th) of $499 plus $50 UPS. Quite a difference in price. I guess their price is increasing because they're increasing the tank thickness from #18 ga. steel to heavy-duty 16 ga. steel and have extended their warranty from 7 yrs. to 10 yrs. Here's their info: 2664 Myrtly Avenue-Rear Eureka, CA 95501 USA Tel: 707/444/1311 Fax: 707/444/1380 http://www.hotpro.com/ email: hotpro@tidepool.com These are good for homes, cabins, camps, hot tubs, green houses, solar backup, stock tanks, and portable uses too. Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 7 15:54:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA29877 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:54:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20261; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:40:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA19749 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:40:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19745 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:40:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa18.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.147]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA23196 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 15:47:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <352A815B.6169@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 15:42:15 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Pond builders References: <19980407.092049.3710.4.sbtauto@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2914 sbtauto@juno.com wrote: > > Well, it is necessary to dispute claims that bentonite won't permit > plants because there are numerous examples here in Boerne with cattails > and other plants growing in bentonite ponds. > > I don' t know that they are healthy, happy plants but they are there. I have cattails, flag iris, marsh marigold and much more all growing on top of my pool liner, in fact, I consider them an important part of my overall filtering system. They don't need to sink roots into the subsoil, all the nutrients they need are provided by the pond itself. Have you had any problems with the plants compromising the integraty of your bentonite seal? Did you find it hard to seal the slopes? Clay is not readily available to me here and I didn't think the bentonite would stick to my steep sided pond, so I opted for the manmade approach. It was easy and because I used a liner that the pool co. had miscut, it was very cost effective. The only hard part was waiting a year for the sediments and organic matter to hide my pebbled blue bottom, but it did eventually disappear. Now it looks quite natural. John, Thank you for the research. Was the visit fun and educational? I've often been tempted to stop at Woods Hole on my way out on to the Cape, but I always wondered if drop-in visitors are encouraged. I hate it when people show up in my driveway unannounced. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 7 16:58:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA01606 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:58:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24925; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:44:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24482 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:44:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-gw.BayNetworks.COM (ns1.BayNetworks.COM [134.177.3.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24478 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:44:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (screen2r.BayNetworks.COM [134.177.3.1]) by smtp-gw.BayNetworks.COM (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26256 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 13:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster1.corpeast.Baynetworks.com (ns2.corpeast.baynetworks.com [192.32.72.17]) by mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA17282 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:47:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bl-mail1.corpeast.BayNetworks.com (bl-mail1-nf0) by lobster1.corpeast.Baynetworks.com (4.1/BNET-97/04/29-S) id AA14630; Tue, 7 Apr 98 16:49:14 EDT for greenbuilding@crest.org Received: from odin ([141.251.81.26]) by bl-mail1.corpeast.BayNetworks.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0529 ID# 0-13458) with SMTP id AAA4795 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:47:21 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980407164700.009afa78@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: rwarner@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 16:47:01 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Regan_Warner@BayNetworks.COM (Regan Warner) Subject: GBlist: Flooring Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2915 Hello: Not sure if I should ask this here, but there seems to be enough of a= knowledge base to if not answer point me in the right direction. I've just= bought a 150 year old log farmhouse with a timber frame addition. Half of= the addition is the mudroom/bathroom/laundry (hooray) and the other half is= a garage (not quite so hooray, hate having my vehicles that close to the= house). We would like to make this garage into a pottery studio. First,= it has no windows(!) and an east and south facing wall (garage door on= north face, main house on west)...so the eco weanie in me screams out= "passive solar, man, get it in there, won't need much wood in the winter,= storeage of radiated heat, you can't build a new house but you can make= this one more logical". So I would like to put a cement floor in and= insulate it....now the questions begin... 1) It's currently compacted dirt (70 years), do I need to excavate? 2) What sort of insulative 'sandwich' do I require (dirt, vapour barrier,= insulation, gravel, cement?)? 3) How thick should the floor be? 4) Where can I get information on colouring/protecting/finishing a cement= floor? 5) Is the system I saw in Yurrop with timbers setting off the floor into= quadrants feasible? 6) It's 14 x 16....would it be feasible to mix my own cement or should I get= ready pour 7) Just how much insulation do I need in the walls (It's located in Clayton= Ontario Canada) if I go with cellulose, and should I go with cellulose....I= react with wicked migraines to most chemical concoctions and thought this= may alleviate it. Is it feasible to blow your own cellulose And finally, probably the most applicable question to this forum...I sort of= like the look of MDF as a wall covering as opposed to sheetrock (hung it= for a couple of summers, really hate it)...is this advisable in a= workplace, and what the hell is in MDF anyways. Sl=E0inte=20 Regan Warner BA GIS, CD Hermitage Systems=20 "Huers of Data, Drawers of Maps" loc:45=B025'15"N 75=B042'30"W ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 7 17:03:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA01700 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 17:03:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25432; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:53:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:49:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24986 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:49:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24979 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.174] (ka3-180.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.180]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA25857; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:56:15 -0400 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <352A684E.EDE90D36@navix.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:40:42 -0400 To: gs11531@navix.net, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: on-demand wood-fired hot water heater Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA24983 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2916 Sgrìobh Sharon Eby-Martin: >For all those who might be interested in heating hot water using wood >scraps or kindling (by the way, I'm not affiliated with this company; I >These are good for homes, cabins, camps, hot tubs, green houses, solar >backup, stock tanks, and portable uses too. This intrigues me. I had not thought that it would be feasible to have demand hot water with wood, so I was planning to go with propane. How do these things work? Do you have to run the water for fifteen minutes before you get hot water (I would think not; it seems impractical.) Do you have to flip a switch or light a fire a few minutes before you want the hot water? Can they be used to heat a radiant slab? How consistent is the heat? Does anyone have experience with them? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.edu Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 8 00:58:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA12412 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:58:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA22543; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:41:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA22208 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA22204 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:41:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p11.ltec.net [206.158.213.21]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA03812 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 23:28:20 -0500 Message-ID: <352AFD8E.F9CA7FA1@navix.net> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 22:31:14 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: on-demand wood-fired hot water heater References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2917 > This intrigues me. I had not thought that it would be feasible to have > demand hot water with wood, so I was planning to go with propane. How do > these things work? Do you have to run the water for fifteen minutes before > you get hot water (I would think not; it seems impractical.) Do you have > to flip a switch or light a fire a few minutes before you want the hot > water? Can they be used to heat a radiant slab? How consistent is the > heat? Does anyone have experience with them? Hi again Speireag. (c: I can't answer all your questions but this might help. I got ahold of Steven Murphy at HotPro (who sells the AquaFire) and received his permission to put their information on the GBList before I originally posted it. So just in case some of you only have email and not internet access (I used to myself) here's an excerpt from their website. And here's their addresses and numbers again just in case. 2664 Myrtly Avenue-Rear Eureka, CA 95501 USA Tel: 707/444/1311 Fax: 707/444/1380 http://www.hotpro.com/ email: hotpro@tidepool.com How AquaFire Works AquaFire works great because the large firebox is completely surrounded by a thin jacket of water. The heat from the fire is forced into the water jacket, rapidly and continuously producing hot water as long as the fire is burning. As hot water is produced, it rises, and is ready to use. AquaFire is a demand water heater, so you only build a fire when you need hot water. You’re not continuously wasting energy like an inefficient conventional storage water heater. By stoking every 10 to 30 minutes, continuous hot water is produced. After the fire goes out, there’s 8 gallons stored for use later. The insulated jacket keeps the water hot for hours. If large amounts of hot water are needed later, another fire is built and within minutes, up to 2 gallons a minute can be produced. Tankless water heaters run all the time hot water is produced, and use costly natural or propane gas. With AquaFire, fuel is free and you have 8 gallons of hot water ready for use after firing. And you’re not using expensive and hard-to-transport propane or natural gas. AquaFire burns vigorously, hot, fast and clean. The fire draws a large amount of air through the ashpan door below the grate...creating a venturi-like turbine effect. The fire is propelled by this large airflow upward into the heating chamber. As the heat rises, it is restricted by the chimney and damper. This action keeps the heat producing hot water...not going up the stack as wasted energy. The door and grate are also completely surrounded by water. The energy goes to heating water. No radiant heat is lost through the base. This open-combustion configuration burns clean, greatly reducing particulate pollution (unlike an airtight woodstove, which is dampened down for hours with little airflow). Because AquaFire is only used when hot water is needed, the overall operating time is minimal. Because of its clean burn and short operating time, AquaFire is exempt from EPA regulations for woodstoves. For all of these reasons...AquaFire works great!!! AquaFire Specifications Volume Capacity: 10 Gallons Hot Water Production: 1 Gallon/minute+@ 100 F Temp. Rise Firing Time: 10 minutes Fuel Consumption: 1 Cubic Foot/Hour Stoking Time: 3-4 Stokes/hour Firebox: TurboCone, 10" X 20" Tank: Unit construction, #18 steel Corrosive Protection: HotDip™ galvanized Height: 47" Diameter: 15" Overall, 12 1/2" Tank Standard Tappings: 3/4" Hot, Cold, Drain, T & P, Gauge Thermosiphon : Upper Hot & Lower Cold ( 4 total ) Tappings: 3/4" NPT Both sides, 32" apart Door Opening: 4" height X 6" width Fuel Size: Up to 2" X 4" X 10" Door Assembly: 1/4" Plate Steel Rectangular Tube Door: Cast Iron 1/2" Thickness, Hinged, Insulated Spring Handle. Grate: Steel 3/8" X 10" Chimney: 4", solid fuel flange Chimney Damper: Cast Iron, built in, 1/4" shaft Ashpan: #18 Galvanized, slotted positioning Temperature Gauge: Dial Indicator, 2" Sacrificial Anode Rod: Installed Drain 3/4" Brass Temperature/Pressure Watts Regulator 100XL/ 3/4" Relief Valve: 210 F/125 PSI (inc./not installed) Operating/Test PSI Operating 40 PSI, Test 150 PSI Weight: 90 lbs. net, 100 lbs. shipped. Shipping Dimensions: 18" dia. X 56" Ht. (UPS Ground) Finish: Navajo Tan, baked enamel Hope this helped. -Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 8 01:26:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA13104 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:26:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA23351; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:16:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:11:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA23094 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:11:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA23088 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip12.ivnet.net [206.101.73.172]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12002 for ; Tue, 7 Apr 1998 21:16:54 -0700 Message-ID: <352B07AF.FC87DDCC@ivnet.net> Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 22:14:23 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Flooring References: <3.0.32.19980407164700.009afa78@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2918  

Regan Warner wrote:

Hello:

Not sure if I should ask this here, but there seems to be enough of a knowledge base to if not answer point me in the right direction. I've just bought a 150 year old log farmhouse with a timber frame addition. Half of the addition is the mudroom/bathroom/laundry (hooray) and the other half is a garage (not quite so hooray, hate having my vehicles that close to the house). We would like to make this garage into a pottery studio. First, it has no windows(!) and an east and south facing wall (garage door on north face, main house on west)...so the eco weanie in me screams out "passive solar, man, get it in there, won't need much wood in the winter, storeage of radiated heat, you can't build a new house but you can make this one more logical". So I would like to put a cement floor in and insulate it....now the questions begin...

1) It's currently compacted dirt (70 years), do I need to excavate?

You need to excavate if insulation/concrete will create a big step or too little headroom.
2) What sort of insulative 'sandwich' do I require (dirt, vapour barrier, insulation, gravel, cement?)?
How often will you heat the pottery studio in the winter? Is there any chance that it will be converted into another use (like a guest bedroom, or a kid's bedroom later on)? Is there a continuous foundation around the perimeter? Is it insulated? If so, how much? A vapor barrier is  a really good idea most of the time, and inexpensive.
3) How thick should the floor be?
About 10 cm.
4) Where can I get information on colouring/protecting/finishing a cement floor?
Your local ready-mix company may be one of the easiest. Other products might take longer to get, and generally, if the concrete company carries it, they can give you installation tips, and they may have some experience with durability, etc. Finsihing (troweling it out and getting it flat) can be a bit tricky to do inside an enclosed space if you've not had much experience with concrete. Might be a good spot for a pro...
5) Is the system I saw in Yurrop with timbers setting off the floor into quadrants feasible?
6) It's 14 x 16....would it be feasible to mix my own cement or should I get ready pour
This is about 2 cubic meters, its not impossible to mix this yourself, but I call out a truck anytime I go over about 1/2 that.
7) Just how much insulation do I need in the walls (It's located in Clayton Ontario Canada) if I go with cellulose, and should I go with cellulose....I react with wicked migraines to most chemical concoctions and thought this may alleviate it. Is it feasible to blow your own cellulose

And finally, probably the most applicable question to this forum...I sort of like the look of MDF as a wall covering as opposed to sheetrock (hung it for a couple of summers, really hate it)...is this advisable in a workplace, and what the hell is in MDF anyways.

MDF is wood fiber glued up with an exterior glue. It'll work for a workplace and it's really smooth, so dust doesn't stick to it very well. This seems like a good attribute for a wall covering in a pottery studio. Plywood holds nails a bit better, if you're hanging tools on the wall. And particle board is cheaper.
Hope this was some help.
Bruce DonelsonA Better Builder
Takilma, Oregon
 

Slàinte

Regan Warner BA GIS, CD
Hermitage Systems
"Huers of Data, Drawers of Maps"
loc:45°25'15"N 75°42'30"W
 

  ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 8 02:08:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA14851 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 02:08:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA24708; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:58:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:54:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA24453 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mg2.rockymtn.net (mailserv.rockymtn.net [166.93.205.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA24444 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 01:54:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rainbow.rmi.net (rainbow [166.93.8.14]) by mg2.rockymtn.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11525 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:01:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from Downstairs (max37122.rmi.net [166.93.37.122]) by rainbow.rmi.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA06609 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:00:59 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 00:00:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199804080600.AAA06609@rainbow.rmi.net> X-Sender: themeese@rmi.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: themeese@rmi.net (Sherrill) Subject: GBlist: tilapia source? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2919 Does anyone know of a source for tilapia fingerlings in the mid-western US? Somewhere near the Rocky Mountian area would be nice. I know they are raised in Texas, from that wouldn't be too bad. Kathleen ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 8 09:50:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA25305 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:50:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08670; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:40:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:36:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA08185 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from austin.aus.sig.net (austin.sig.net [199.1.78.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08177 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.195.85.146] (server.ail.org [192.195.85.146] (may be forged)) by austin.aus.sig.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA10995 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 08:41:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804081341.IAA10995@austin.aus.sig.net> Received: from [100.100.100.6] by [192.195.85.146] via smtpd (for [199.1.78.2]) with SMTP; 8 Apr 1998 13:39:50 UT Received: from 100.100.100.88 by 100.100.100.6 with SMTP (QuickMail Pro Server for MacOS 1.0.2); 08 APR 98 08:41:35 UT Date: 08 Apr 98 08:48:04 -0500 From: Matthew DeWolfe Subject: GBlist: Flooring quandry... To: "GB Disc. Group" X-Mailer: QuickMail Pro 1.5.2 (Mac) X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: Matthew DeWolfe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2920 Mr. Warner: one idea for your floor, i saw this in a colonia down near Brownsville, TX, but it would work just about anywhere and would require less excavation, concrete, and less professional assistance... lay out a vapor barrier and insulation board (for thermal break--not sure the amount that is required in your area, pretty cold up there i imagine) lay out a 2 foot x 2 foot grid of wood 2x6's (or better yet, some older salvage wood which is dimensionally stable and possibly cheaper), cut notches for the overlapping joints, make sure this wood grid is level. fill the holes in the grid about halfway with some local crushed stone or sand, then you can mix as few as one bag of sack crete in a wheel barrel, fill and float and finish one square of the grid at a time, and as long as your wood grid stays level, your floor will be level, and you use the wooden grid as your surface to float and finish to. as far as coloring it, you can always scatter some sand or pigment on the surface right before final finishing (this aspect, i don't know that much about) let me think a little bit more about how this wooden grid system meets the existing walls, you don't want it to "pull" away from the walls and leave a gap, but perhaps this is something you can solve with a baseboard of some larger than usual dimension. anyone else have comments on this system. I would caution only the use of this system in a cold climate...Brownsville gets only down to about 50F in the winter...adaption seems likely and possible...i'm sure this will open a whole can of worms (hopefully) Matthew Carl DeWolfe Texas YouthWorks Technical Assistance Specialist American Institute for Learning 204 E. 4th St., Austin, TX 78701 512 472 3395 x44 dewolfe@ail.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 8 10:22:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28209 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11257; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:08:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10701 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:08:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10686; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:08:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from flash.net (san2asc1-23.flash.net [209.30.152.23]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15419; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:15:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <352B8995.2DF660C@flash.net> Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 09:28:37 -0500 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag Alden CC: Green Building List , strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Stem Wall Idea References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2921 Speireag Alden wrote: > Sgrìobh Larry Stivers: > (much snipped) > Well, because of the way the footers work the inside wall will be a > little weird anyway. However, because the outside course of blocks should > be pretty tight once there's concrete inside them and/or a surfacing on the > outside, the inside bit can be a little looser; I'm thinking of filling the > weird spaces with insulation, and staggering the cinder blocks a bit to > make that possible. Staggering them slightly won't affect their ability to > bear the load. > > >Well, this sounds like a very interesting use of simple and inexpensive > >materials, and I'll be interested in following this thread to see how you > >solve these and other challenges as they appear. > > > > Thanks for your input, Larry. > > -Speireag. > > 0>>>>>>(--------------------- > Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden > Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.edu > Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. > Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? I hope you have a WWW sit where you can post some photos of this project while in progress. I'm really quite interested in how the whole shebang works out. Good Luck. Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 8 10:56:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29185 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:56:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13475; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:42:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12777 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stan.lcc.net (secure.lcc.net [207.70.172.248]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12770 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 10:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lcc.net (hunt-pri3-a17.lcc.net [207.70.180.113]) by stan.lcc.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id JAA08266 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 09:52:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <352B905A.77510034@lcc.net> Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 09:57:30 -0500 From: Kim Travis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: information Subject: GBlist: Bamboo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2922 Hi, I am Kim Travis and I have been lurking for a bit. My husband and I are planning on building a hay/straw bale homesite in the future and are interested in using bamboo rather than rebar to tie it together. We have twenty acres about a 100 miles north of Houston, Tx., so we would like to grow our own bamboo. We are having trouble finding information on what type of bamboo to grow that would be suitable for building, eating the shoots of and for our climate. Also information on how to cure the bamboo, once it is grown. We know about the 'Book of Bamboo' by Farelly but it is out of print and we have not been able to track down a copy. Kim Travis The Rose Colored Forest ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 8 12:49:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14110 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:49:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21650; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:35:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21132 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eypdc04.eypae.com (eypdc04.eypae.com [205.234.22.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21127 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:35:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by eypdc04.eypae.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:42:56 -0400 Message-ID: From: Mike Fowler To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: President's Million Solar Roofs Initiative Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:37:00 -0400 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2923 The US Dept of Energy's Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy is re-broadcasting the President's Million Solar Roofs Initiative video conference from Oct 29, 1997 next week on April 15, 1998 from 1:00 - 3:00 EDT at various sites around the U.S. Did anyone see the original broadcast? If you did, what did you think? Was it worthwhile or political smoke and mirrors? My curiosity is up and have signed up for the downlink near me. For others who may be interested you can get more information from the web sites listed below. The EPA/Office of Air Quality Planning & Standards (OAQPS) webpage lists the downlink sites. > http://www.epa.gov/oar/oaqps/eog/schedule.html Click the downlink site map on the upper left column of the page. > There is also more information on the Solar Roof Initiative at > http://www.eren.doe.gov/millionroofs/ > >From what I have briefly read the initiative's goal is to by the year 2010 have one million new solar roofs which includes both photovoltaics, minimum 0.5 kW for residential and 2.0 kW for commercial, and solar thermal panels for hot water and space heating. The program will include special federal lending and financing, an increase in the number of federal buildings requiring solar systems, a proposed tax credit, and attempt to remove marketplace barriers for solar systems to compete against non-solar products. The overall goal is to reduce carbon emissions and create more jobs in solar energy systems Mike. _______________________________ Michael E. Fowler Registered Architect, State of New York Einhorn Yaffee Prescott Architecture & Engineering, P.C. The Argus Building PO Box 617 Broadway at Beaver Street Albany NY 12201-0617 EYP Web Site: http://www.eypae.com/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 8 14:18:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16533 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:18:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26165; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:08:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:04:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25719 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:04:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25704 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:04:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.100.174.173] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0); Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:12:00 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Patagonia Competition Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 11:10:34 -0700 x-sender: bruce@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1320088574-1976936@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2924 Occasionally unsolicited commercial email includes an item of genuine interest. This announcement dropped into my box this morning, and I'm thinking that the designers out there might be interested. This competition is not limited buildings, but they say architects are eligible. Bruce S >Hello: > >Patagonia is challenging designers to prove that quality equals >environementalism in the competition Q=E, which is being heavily promoted >to architects, designers, students, environmentalists and outdoor >enthusiasts. [snip] >Full details can also be found at www.patagonia.com. > >Thank you, > >Julie D. Taylor >Competition Coordinator > -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 8 14:36:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16965 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:36:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27697; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:26:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:22:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27275 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:22:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27271 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:22:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46000; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:22:49 -0600 Date: Wed, 8 Apr 1998 12:22:49 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GERRY MARTIN Cc: Duane Erickson , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: solar food dryers In-Reply-To: <3529460C.78E57EF4@navix.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2925 Sharon: I got our hanging non-electric "Food PANtrie" Solar dryer/sprouter from Product Source International. You can contact Duane Erickson Web site:http://downtown-web.com/psi/pantrie.htm ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Mon, 6 Apr 1998, GERRY MARTIN wrote: > > Jorg, could you tell me where you got your solar food dryer? It sounds > really interesting. > -Sharon Eby-Martin > gs11531@navix.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 8 15:50:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19017 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:50:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02551; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:40:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:36:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01813 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:36:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01808 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA18596 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:42:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va13-61.ix.netcom.com(207.223.178.189) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma018492; Wed Apr 8 14:41:33 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980408151153.0072286c@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 15:40:21 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Too Much "Garbage" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2926 Garbage? Average Americans contributed 1,570 pounds of solid trash, 23 tons of hazardous waste, and 3,613 pounds of sewage to the world's waste this past year. >> The hazardous waste number is simply staggaring if correct! << (site did not contain information on average recycling) | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 8 15:51:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19026 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:51:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02561; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:40:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:36:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01833 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:36:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01812 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 15:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA18598 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 14:42:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va13-61.ix.netcom.com(207.223.178.189) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma018492; Wed Apr 8 14:41:35 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980408151817.00729994@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 15:40:24 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2927 Pretty good list, Frasier (assuming I understood original question) I'm a bit slow on the uptake but I'd like to add three other criteria: 6. Does your air handler (cycle) turn on and off a lot? 7. Is the system noisy during operation (do you have to raise your voice when blower runs)? 8. Was the system checked or tuned-up in the last two years? -------- you wrote--------- Date: Sat, 04 Apr 1998 10:47:28 -0500 From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Residential Ducts At 03:45 PM 4/3/1998 -0800, A Lee wrote: >Does anyone have suggestions based on field experience or other >experience what 5 questions we should ask to screen for houses that >could benefit the most? 1 - Are you heating AND cooling ? 2 - Is there an air handler in the attic ? 3 - Are there returns in every room ? 4 - If single return, how big is it ? 5 - Are your bills higher than $xxx (you ought to be able to figure out a base regional heating and/or cooling cost) ? Let us know what works & the results !! best -- - --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org - --------------------------------------------------------------- | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 8 17:09:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA23662 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 17:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA07753; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:58:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:54:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07356 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:54:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07348 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA27014 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 16:00:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va13-61.ix.netcom.com(207.223.178.189) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma026954; Wed Apr 8 15:59:05 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980408162804.0072bd0c@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 16:57:54 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Hank Rutkowsky, ACCA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2928 Hank Rutkowsky, P.E. Air Conditioning Contractors of America (ACCA) Ph. 330-364-5572 Fax. 330-364-3777 Direct e-mail address not known so, Send message via: admin@acca.org Web site: http://www.acca.org/ | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 8 22:22:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07410 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA21748; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:12:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:08:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA21365 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:07:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21359 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:07:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa7-p58.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.186]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA12405 for ; Wed, 8 Apr 1998 22:15:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <352C2DF6.73C6@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 22:09:58 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Sealing fish ponds Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2929 For any still interested in the Russian system, I found my copy of "The Book of the New Alchemists", I will be happy to send you the details. Taken with John's words of warning it would be interesting to see how this might work in a few small test holes. Send me a note if you want the info. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 9 11:42:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18745 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:42:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12817; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:31:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:26:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12145 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from AICS.NET (aics.net [209.21.198.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12137 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:26:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.21.198.46] ([209.21.198.46]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 1663900 ; Thu, 09 Apr 1998 10:42:38 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 11:44:00 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: Bamboo Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2930 Kim Travis wrote: I am Kim Travis and I have been lurking for a bit. My husband and I are planning on building a hay/straw bale homesite in the future and are interested in using bamboo rather than rebar to tie it together. -------------------- Yes, you can grow it in Texas. It's used in all kinds of construction. A common type grown and used in the US is phyllostachys pubescens--common name is Moso. Can grow to 100 feet tall, 6-8 inches in diameter. In certain ways, it's stronger than steel (tensile strength and compression). See my article on building with bamboo in Environmental Design & Construction (if they ever publish it--was bumped). You'll also find a lot on the web about this. Moso shoots aren't as yummy as other bamboo varieties, tho'. Various opinions out there about how to cure bamboo. Darrel DeBoer, a Berkeley, Calif. architect, has done a lot in this realm, including some strawbale structures. Best o' luck. Carol Steinfeld Sustainable Strategies Ecological Engineering, Planning and Design 152 Commonwealth Avenue Concord, Massachusetts USA 01742-2968 Phone/Voice-mail: 978 369 9440 Fax/Telecopier: 978 369 2484 Web site: www.ecological-engineering.com E-mail: sustainable@aics.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 9 16:12:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA00444 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:12:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28286; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 16:02:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:57:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA27909 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:57:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27900 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA01254 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 15:04:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va15-16.ix.netcom.com(207.223.179.80) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma001200; Thu Apr 9 15:03:49 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980409160216.0071c76c@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 16:02:36 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Too much Garbage, way... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2931 More Garbage... Quick follow up: Ive been getting quite a few off-list remarks that the hazardous waste numbers (23 tons) cited in the previous post are indeed WAY high; so list experts what < IS > the consensus per household annual contribution to toxic waste in the US? Thanks for your input. --------- original message ----------- Date: Wed, 08 Apr 1998 15:40:21 -0400 Subject: GBlist: Too Much "Garbage" Garbage? Average Americans contributed 1,570 pounds of solid trash, 23 tons of hazardous waste, and 3,613 pounds of sewage to the world's waste this past year. >> The hazardous waste number is simply staggaring if correct! << (site did not contain information on average recycling) | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 9 18:52:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA03987 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:52:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05600; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:42:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:38:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05290 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:38:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05286 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 18:38:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id RAA0000009968; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 17:45:02 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980409224732.0070c058@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 17:47:32 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: L. Gerig's Disease and Biosolids Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2932 Re an old thread, I have a long, authoratative article I will be glad to email to anyone who is interested in the above subject. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 9 20:07:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA04772 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08632; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:57:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:53:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA08072 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA08066 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 19:53:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA1-d3.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.228]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id UAA29132 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <352D5FE7.1D0C@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:55:19 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: pond liners, Russian style Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2933 Someone sent me a request for the pond liner article out of The Book of the New Alchemists which I conscientiously put away for safe keeping and have now lost. If someone requested a copy and haven't received it, please send the request again and I'll try to do better. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 9 22:03:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA06090 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA13680; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 21:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 9 Apr 1998 21:49:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA13215 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 21:48:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA13207 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 21:48:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from navix.net (xyp43p6.navix.net [204.96.104.58]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA21439 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:35:43 -0500 Message-ID: <352D7830.42D98F10@navix.net> Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:38:57 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: strawbale listserver? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2934 Jorg, you've mentioned the strawbale listserver a few times, so my question is: how do I get ahold of them? Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 9 22:18:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA06268 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:18:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14922; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:08:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:04:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA14511 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA14505 for ; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 22:04:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p8.ltec.net [206.158.213.18]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA24738; Thu, 9 Apr 1998 20:53:01 -0500 Message-ID: <352D7C3D.94830BF0@navix.net> Date: Thu, 09 Apr 1998 19:56:14 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Sealing fish ponds References: <352C2DF6.73C6@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2935 Chuck Hinckley wrote: > For any still interested in the Russian system, I found my copy of "The > Book of the New Alchemists", I will be happy to send you the details. > Taken with John's words of warning it would be interesting to see how > this might work in a few small test holes. Send me a note if you want > the info. > > Chuck Hinckley > Ash Creek Design > Earlville, NY Sure Chuck, I'll go ahead and take a copy still if you can send it on. Thanks much.-Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net RR 1 Box 79 Dwight, NE 68635 402-545-2109 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 10 12:29:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA19267 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:29:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11210; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:19:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:14:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA10588 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10583 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:14:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA18211; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 11:20:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va10-11.ix.netcom.com(207.223.177.139) by dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma018163; Fri Apr 10 11:20:25 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980410113141.00720764@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:19:10 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Enviro-warning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2936 You got'ta love this one, courtesy of "TourBus" ------------------------------- (repost) ------------------------------- ----------------------- BAN DIHYDROGEN MONOXIDE ----------------------- Ban Dihydrogen Monoxide! <> The Invisible Killer Dihydrogen monoxide is colorless, odorless, tasteless, and kills uncounted thousands of people every year. Most of these deaths are caused by accidental inhalation of DHMO, but the dangers of dihydrogen monoxide do not end there. Prolonged exposure to its solid form causes severe tissue damage. Symptoms of DHMO ingestion can include excessive sweating and urination, and possibly a bloated feeling, nausea, vomiting and body electrolyte imbalance. For those who have become dependent, DHMO withdrawal means certain death. Dihydrogen monoxide: * is also known as hydroxl acid, and is the major component of acid rain. * contributes to the "greenhouse effect." * may cause severe burns. * contributes to the erosion of our natural landscape. * accelerates corrosion and rusting of many metals. * may cause electrical failures and decreased effectiveness of automobile brakes. * has been found in excised tumors of terminal cancer patients. Contamination Is Reaching Epidemic Proportions! Quantities of dihydrogen monoxide have been found in almost every stream, lake, and reservoir in America today. But the pollution is global, and the contaminant has even been found in Antarctic ice. DHMO has caused millions of dollars of property damage in the midwest, and recently California. Despite the danger, dihydrogen monoxide is often used: * as an industrial solvent and coolant. * in nuclear power plants. * in the production of plastic foams. * as a fire retardant. * in many forms of cruel animal research. * in the distribution of pesticides. Even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical. * as an additive in certain "junk-foods" and other food products. Companies dump waste DHMO into rivers and the ocean, and nothing can be done to stop them because this practice is still legal. The impact on wildlife is extreme, and we cannot afford to ignore it any longer! The Horror Must Be Stopped! The American government has refused to ban the production, distribution, or use of this damaging chemical due to its "importance to the economic health of this nation." In fact, the navy and other military organizations are conducting experiments with DHMO, and designing multi-billion dollar devices to control and utilize it during warfare situations. Hundreds of military research facilities receive tons of it through a highly sophisticated underground distribution network. Many store large quantities for later use. It's Not Too Late! Act NOW to prevent further contamination. Find out more about this dangerous chemical. What you don't know can hurt you and others throughout the world. # # # ....................... What this little warning message doesn't tell you is that "dihydrogen" just means "two hydrogen atoms," and "monoxide" means "one oxygen atom." Take a second and ask yourself a question: what do you get when you put two hydrogen atoms with one oxygen atom? Once you have answered that question, go back and re-read the warning message. I think you'll get a good chuckle. :) ----------------------- | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 10 14:31:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23700 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:31:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA17689; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:21:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:17:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA17300 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:17:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA17294 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 14:17:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA21317; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:23:39 -0500 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005C45A; Fri, 10 Apr 98 13:12:29 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:21:50 -0500 Message-ID: <0005C45A.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Interesting development in "green" wall coverings...... To: greenbuilding@crest.org, jbowyer@mercury.forestry.umn.edu, MCheple@aol.com, phuelman@mercury.forestry.umn.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2937 I thought this might be of interest.... - Patrick Pierquet Asahi Chemical Industry Starts Supply of Non-Dioxin Emitting Wallpaper Material Comline Chemicals & Materials Nov 20, 1997 p. N/A Asahi Chemical Industry <3407>, a leading manufacturer of synthetic fibers, has started the supply of "Lafit," which is a wallpaper material made of a rayon that does not emit toxic gases when incinerated. As the raw material of the rayon is a biodegradable material made of wood pulp, the material does not emit toxic gases, even when discarded as a construction material, and it is characterized by having the capability of returning to earth when buried. The company's first year sales target is 300,000 square meters. The domestic sales quantity for wallpaper materials is about 700.0 million square meters per year. Most of that amount is material use polyvinyl chloride, which is one material considered responsible for the dioxin emissions. The company embarked on a solution to this problem by developing the material based on the newly developed biodegradable rayon. Ref: Nikkan Kogyo Shimbun, 11/18/97, p.19 THIS IS THE FULL TEXT: COPYRIGHT 1997 COMLINE NEWS SERVICE COMLINE Business Data, Inc., 1-12-5, Hamamatsucho, Minato-Ku, Tokyo 105, Japan. Tel. 81-3-5401-4567. FAX 81-3-5401-2345. WORD COUNT: 151/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 10 16:05:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA24957 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 16:05:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22164; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:55:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:51:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21893 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:51:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21889 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 15:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA28450 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 12:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: 10 Apr 1998 12:55:57 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: WALLCOVERING To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA21890 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2938 My initial thought about Patrick Pierquet's posting regarding biodegradable wallpaper was: just ban the idiotic practice of pasting printed material on walls. But, no, I thought, that's just an esthetic judgement. Then I wondered: how long would it take hunks of sheetrock with 3 dozen coats of latex paint to biodegrade? Is latex paint--which I assume is the paint choice of 99% of us out here--any better, ecologically, than non-biodegradable wallpaper? Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 10 20:26:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA27825 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:26:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04874; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:16:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:12:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04603 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04599 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 20:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Cheetah (1Cust92.max11.santa-clara.ca.ms.uu.net [153.34.145.92]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA06068 for ; Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 17:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804110019.RAA06068@italy.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: envdiv@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Michelle Randall Subject: GBlist: Green Building Consumer Magazine revisited Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2939 Hi all, With regards to this old thread, Sunset Magazine has a feature "Building tomorrow's home" in this month's issue (the 100th anniversary special). The six-page article highlights Rastra, Straw bales, SIPs, Earth, Insulated concrete forms & Steel framing as the coming trends in residential construction. It also plugs the architects, builders, designers, vendors, engineers and organizations involved in the projects. Nice work, Sunset and kudos to all involved. We're getting there... Michelle -------------- Michelle Randall Hayward Lumber - Green Building Materials Division Manager 429 Front Street Salinas, CA 93940 Phone: 408/755-8805 Fax: 408/755-8814 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 11 08:09:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA14261 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:09:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA18029; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 07:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 11 Apr 1998 07:54:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA17675 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 07:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA17669 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 07:54:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4IPFa05170 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:00:42 -0500 (EDT) From: IMSHAPIRO Message-ID: <4dce1fdd.352f5b6c@aol.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:00:42 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Insulating above ceilings Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2940 We may have discussed this before, so excuse a second-visit if so. I'm doing an energy audit on a 7-story apartment buildings. The roof has 3" rigid insulation. The top story has a dropped ceiling. Above the dropped ceiling is cool in winter. What is the advisability of insulating above the dropped ceiling? Is there a risk of condensation? Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 108 South Albany Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX IMSHAPIRO@AOL.COM "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 11 11:42:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20138 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21806; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:32:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:28:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21537 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:28:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21533 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 11:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip11.ivnet.net [206.101.73.171]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA03814; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 07:33:50 -0700 Message-ID: <352F8CC6.9298963F@ivnet.net> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 08:31:18 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IMSHAPIRO CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulating above ceilings References: <4dce1fdd.352f5b6c@aol.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2941  

IMSHAPIRO wrote:
I'm doing an energy audit on a 7-story apartment buildings.  The roof has 3"rigid insulation.  The top story has a dropped ceiling.  Above the dropped ceiling is cool in winter. What is the advisability of insulating above the dropped ceiling?  Is there a risk of condensation?
Ian
Ian Shapiro, PE

Ian, there is a high risk of condenstation in the space between the dropped ceiling and the foam above if you insulate the ceiling plane. The coolness may be due to thermal bridging of the foam, (by HVAC ducting maybe?) or just by the rather poor insulation which it provides. Ideally, you would provide a vapor barrier between the dropped ceiling and the new insulation. Practically speaking, that sounds pretty tricky, what with all the wires and such. Maintaing the integrity of that barrier might be problematical as well.
Which brings you to ventilation of that space. Assuming you've got adequate space between the new insulation and the roof for airflow, you could ventilate that area with a fan controlled by a dehumidistat.
Bruce Donelson
A Better Builder
Takilma, Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 11 12:35:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20956 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:35:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24194; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:25:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:20:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23919 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23915 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:20:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sf5.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.102]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA01714 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <352F98CE.6322@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 12:22:38 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulating above ceilings References: <4dce1fdd.352f5b6c@aol.com> <352F8CC6.9298963F@ivnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2942 Bruce wrote: > > > > IMSHAPIRO wrote: > I'm doing an energy audit on a 7-story apartment buildings. The roof > has 3"rigid insulation. The top story has a dropped ceiling. Above > the dropped ceiling is cool in winter. What is the advisability of > insulating above the dropped ceiling? Is there a risk of > condensation? > Ian > Ian Shapiro, PE > > Ian, there is a high risk of condenstation in the space between the > dropped ceiling and the foam above if you insulate the ceiling plane. > The coolness may be due to thermal bridging of the foam, (by HVAC > ducting maybe?) or just by the rather poor insulation which it > provides. Ideally, you would provide a vapor barrier between the > dropped ceiling and the new insulation. Practically speaking, that > sounds pretty tricky, what with all the wires and such. Maintaing the > integrity of that barrier might be problematical as well. > Which brings you to ventilation of that space. Assuming you've got > adequate space between the new insulation and the roof for airflow, > you could ventilate that area with a fan controlled by a dehumidistat. Unless you are going to substantially increase the effective R value over what is already installed in the roof, which is problematic in itself on a grid type dropped ceiling (what is the configuration of the ceiling and how much space are you working with?), the cost/benefits equation becomes dubious. If the ceiling is sheetrock, you would be able to use a vapor seal finish on the surface, blow a nice layer of cellulose on top and provide adequate venting. I've never favored power vents because they tend to concentrate airflow through a narrow corridor, not scrubbing much of the roof surface. Speading vents out as uniformly as possible is always my preference, lots of small vents spread around is much better than a couple of big mothers at either end. Damp, stagnate corners can be a real problem over a long time frame. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 11 16:05:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA24855 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 16:05:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01587; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:51:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:47:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01093 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:47:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01089 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:47:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.2] (blf2.acadia.net [205.217.217.2]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA25355 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:54:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:54:54 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Re: insulating above ceiling Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2943 Dear Ian, Is there any chance of building a pitched roof above the current flat one, and insulating above the existing foam? This would solve two problems: poor roof insulation and a flat roof. If the current roof is in bad shape, another option might be to spray urethane foam above the existing foam, and then cover the urethane with a silicone membrane. By the way, what is there for insulation in the walls above the dropped ceiling? Good luck. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 12 23:55:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA24937 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:55:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21215; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:45:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:40:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA20903 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:39:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20898 for ; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 23:39:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000009707; Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:46:51 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980413034923.006ca580@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 22:49:23 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Greywater Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2944 More Greywater info: Further to the request for papers on the above topic, CMHC has a very good paper on the topic, including schematics, in case anyone is interested. If anyone is interested and does not know the reference, please contact me so that I can dig up the official title and contact. _________________________________________________________ Jorg Ostrowski Sorry to post this to everyone, but I don't keep everyone's address. Jorg, I would appreciate more info on this subject. Thanks, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 13 07:09:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA01013 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:09:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA00815; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 06:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 13 Apr 1998 06:54:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA00563 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 06:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804131053.GAA00563@solstice.crest.org> Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 02:00:28 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Bryan Subject: GBlist: HELP!!! Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2945 Hello All, I just subscribed to this mailing list because I need some imput/advice. I am a college student (20 y/o) living in Maine and I have been given a great opportunity. A handfull of my close friends and I have decided to dedicate our lives to organic gardening and living self-sufficiantly (well in the future or course). We have available to us a very large amount of land for absolutly no cost (save the extra property tax because of the building). We are planning to build on this land this summer. We do not plan on using the power company for electricity. (We are well aware that we may go through the first summer and possibly the first winter w/out electricty) We are going to be building a greenhouse and turning soil this summer to start working on organic gardening for next summer. The soil is good and the area is open enough for harnessing solar energy. For an initial structure we are thinking about a 24' x 24' single floor structure on footings (we don't have an extensive budget). We would like to know if anyone has imput on to the small things that we can due to get a start on having a "green" house. Basically, any information at all would be really helpful. Thanks bunches, Bryan Lumbra ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 13 07:24:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA01081 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:24:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA01317; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:10:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA01036 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:09:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wacky.total.net (wacky.total.net [205.236.175.121]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01032; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.205.157.175] (ppp-annex-0121.tor.accent.net [205.205.157.175]) by wacky.total.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA05897; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:16:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804131116.HAA05897@wacky.total.net> Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #146 Date: Mon, 13 Apr 98 07:20:50 -0400 x-sender: nlugsdin@pop.total.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: To: , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2946 does anyone have any idea how good spruce is as a candidate for cordwood building? we have a fair bit on our 60 acres..also aspen which I understand is quite suitable.. Nancy Lugsdin Tooronto ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 13 08:13:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA02427 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:13:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03037; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:03:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:58:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA02755 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com (ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com [209.37.0.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA02751 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 07:57:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim_Hartzfeld@mail.ifsia.com Received: (from uucp@localhost) by ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) id IAA26034; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:04:37 -0400 Received: from 10.1.48.6 by ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com via smap (3.2) id xma026001; Mon, 13 Apr 98 08:04:29 -0400 Received: by mail.ifsia.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 852565E5.00429BEE ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:07:32 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: INTERFACE To: greenbuilding@crest.org, PPierquet@us.teltech.com Message-ID: <852565E5.0041F6FD.00@mail.ifsia.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:07:28 -0400 Subject: Re: GBlist: Interesting development in "green" wall coverings.... .. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2947 Does this sound like a great solution or what! Though not an expert, I am somewhat familiar with the Rayon manufacturing process. I don't wish to share opinions as facts. Check out the process for yourself. You might find out why most of production of rayon has moved to South America and the Far East. We (Interface, Inc.) have chosen not to explore the use of Rayon as an environmentally preferred substitute for existing materials. Jim Hartzfeld ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 13 08:50:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA02862 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:50:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04374; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:36:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04058 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:35:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04053 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:35:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA9-p55.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.247]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA04497 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:42:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353206F4.3847@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 08:37:08 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Interesting development in "green" wall coverings.... .. References: <852565E5.0041F6FD.00@mail.ifsia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2948 Jim_Hartzfeld@mail.ifsia.com wrote: > > Does this sound like a great solution or what! > > Though not an expert, I am somewhat familiar with the Rayon manufacturing > process. I don't wish to share opinions as facts. Check out the process > for yourself. You might find out why most of production of rayon has moved > to South America and the Far East. We (Interface, Inc.) have chosen not to > explore the use of Rayon as an environmentally preferred substitute for > existing materials. > > Jim Hartzfeld HUH?_ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 13 09:29:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA03638 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05492; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:19:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:15:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05215 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:14:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05211 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:13:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id 4PATa02066 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:20:33 -0500 (EDT) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: <83f055c2.35321123@aol.com> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 09:20:33 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: plastic lumber products Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 170 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2949 I'm looking for the following plastic lumber products for a demonstration project that will need to 'look' like wood (wood coloring) and/or be able to be painted. I have contacted Eaglebrook and AERT but any other manufacturers contact info (phone/email) that you've had experience with and can recommend would be greatly appreciated. 1) 7 1/4" crown molding. I need an approximate price per foot, unpainted. 2) Price of plastic lumber per board foot....2x4 or similar. A similar size as used on deck kits would work. 3) Ideas for a chair rail. (protects walls from chairs scraping, bumping, etc). Currently oak is being used. 4) Exterior soffit. These are about five feet wide and go around the building. They're currently made out of wood. Any potential there? Please respond to me rather than the whole list, unless it has wide relevance. Thanks! Phil Bailey SustainAbility ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 13 10:58:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05121 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09981; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:48:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:44:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09579 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:44:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09575 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:44:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.36]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 0708000 ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:54:11 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980413104928.0069dc38@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 10:49:28 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Insulating above ceilings Cc: IMSHAPIRO In-Reply-To: <199804120600.CAA19819@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2950 Ian Shapiro wrote: >What is the advisability of insulating above the dropped ceiling? Is there a >risk of condensation? I made a similar post last fall (original post was November 21, 1997). Check the archives for the responses. I approached the issue from a slightly different perspective, asking for information on the effectiveness of the insulation above a drop ceiling. My opinion is that the thermal effectiveness is minimal due to the total lack of an air barrier. The risk of condensation can only increase when adding insulation in this plane. I would add insulation to the side walls (if none exists) up to the roof deck and skip the insulation above the drop ceiling. Venting will just end up pulling more conditioned air into the space above the drop ceiling. Any chance of putting in a drywall ceiling? ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 13 11:43:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA05831 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:43:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12860; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:33:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:28:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12259 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:28:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12255 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:28:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LRS00431; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:32:50 EDT To: msheffer@cyberia.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:33:43 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulating above ceilings Message-ID: <19980413.113535.6566.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980413104928.0069dc38@cyberia.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,7-8,11-12,14-18 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2951 Hi, I have a similar situation. My office is in a concrete block building, warehouse type, with flat room and large overhead door in back. The built out part of the showroom has a suspended 2x2 grid ceiling. With the east/west orientation and large east facing window and west facing metal overhead door this place gets really hot, particularly being in humid S. Florida. When I moved in there was no insulation above the ceiling or at the roof deck. After a few months of horrendous electric bills I took in on myself to lay insulation directly on the suspended ceiling. That was two years ago and so far no problems and an average of $20- $40 per month saving on the electric. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 13 12:44:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA07914 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:44:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16565; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:34:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:29:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15990 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15979 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:29:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MzM00431; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:33:19 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:36:06 -0700 Subject: GBlist: borate treated lumber Message-ID: <19980413.123609.14862.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-10 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2952 To EBN or others, I need to find a source for decking without CCH. Do you know of any mills or distributors of borate treated lumber in the southeast. I was told there is a mill in Alabama but that is all I can find so far. Thanks in advance. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 13 13:00:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA08201 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 13:00:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18246; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:49:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:45:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17471 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17452 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 12:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.96.104.50 (xyp33p19.navix.net [204.96.104.50]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA08384; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 11:47:48 -0500 Message-ID: <3532D159.2260@navix.net> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:00:46 -0500 From: Joyce Coppinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-Navix (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Natural Building Workshops Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2953 Two natural building workshops are currently scheduled in Nebraska. Both workshops will feature straw bale wall building demonstration and will include sessions on environmental siting and design, building with salvaged and indigenous materials and recycled content products, and straw bale construction. Dates and Locations: Saturday, April 25, Wayne State College, Wayne, Nebraska Saturday, May 16, Chadron State College, Chadron, Nebraska Workshops scheduled 8:30 AM to 4:00 PM. $75 per person. Meals and Lodging on your own. Arrangements are being made for on-site training in straw bale construction, Columbus, Nebraska, Sunday, April 26. $25 per person. Additional workshops and training now being organized throughout 1998. For schedule details or more information, contact jc10508@navix.net or call 1-800-910-3019. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 13 21:02:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17200 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 21:02:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA13703; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:52:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:48:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA13373 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:48:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA13369 for ; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:48:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.201.3] (usr2a3.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.3]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA18618; Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:55:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980413.123609.14862.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 20:52:45 -0400 To: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: borate treated lumber Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2954 Hi Beverly, >From what I've learned, Borates would not be appropriate for an unprotected deck, because they are water-soluble and will leach out of the wood over time. You can get ACQ-treated wood, which has ammonia and copper, but lacks the arsenic and chromium of CCA. The chemicals are made by Chemical Specialties, Inc. (one of the major producers of CCA, as well). The wood is treated a number of places, and you can get the info by contacting CSI: 800/421-8661. As you probably know, there is also a wide range of recycled plastic and wood-and-plastic alternative decking materials. You can get listings for dozens of these companies from the REDI guide: (www.oikos.com/redi). There are also sources of naturally rot-resistant woods, such as cypress, that are salvaged from old buildings or, more likely, from river bottoms. Dredging up these "sinkers" is now illegal in Florida, but a number of Florida sawmills still acquire the logs from North of the border and mill them locally. In-depth information on many of these products is available in the EBN Product Catalog, and on our E Build Library CD-ROM of back issues. Yours, Nadav At 12:36 PM -0700 4/13/98, Beverly A. Weiter wrote: >To EBN or others, > >I need to find a source for decking without CCH. Do you know of any >mills or distributors of borate treated lumber in the southeast. I was >told there is a mill in Alabama but that is all I can find so far. > >Thanks in advance. > >Beverly Weiter Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 14 08:15:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA24719 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:15:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02689; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 08:03:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:58:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA02312 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA02308 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA03177; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:04:12 -0500 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0005C4ED; Tue, 14 Apr 98 06:53:38 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 07:02:33 -0500 Message-ID: <0005C4ED.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) To: Arun.Vohra@hq.doe.gov, bills@mpls.local.mntech.org, cat97@sailrite.com, dcumming@mail.mntech.org, dhepenstal@mail.mntech.org, document@us.teltech.com, ekimelbon@aol.com, ekimelbon@hotmail.com, folbot1@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, info@aircraft-spruce.com, jbowyer@mercury.forestry.umn.edu, kayak@fidalgo.net, kayaks@clcinc.com, lakesidedj@aol.com, laughing_loon@shaysnet.com, marek002@tc.umn.edu, MCheple@aol.com, mgentile@wlgore.com, mkhokies@aol.com, mythosdk@ptialaska.net, naveed_magbub@asl-tk.com, phuelman@mercury.forestry.umn.edu, rhurd@mail.mntech.org, rjbennett@stthomas.edu, sales@newfound.com, sales@nida-core.com, strawnet@aol.com, viyer@wlgore.com, wpierque@ix.netcom.com, www-survey@cc.gatech.edu, ppierquet@teltech.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2955 test ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 14 20:58:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA08588 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:58:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA11654; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:43:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10964 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10937 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:42:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip07.ivnet.net [206.101.73.167]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28056; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:48:27 -0700 Message-ID: <3532F12E.220D5CD6@ivnet.net> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:16:30 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marcus Sheffer CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, IMSHAPIRO Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulating above ceilings References: <3.0.3.32.19980413104928.0069dc38@cyberia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2956 Marcus Sheffer wrote: > ... Any > chance of putting in a drywall ceiling?... Great idea. If the wire attacments are strong enough you could fasten resilient drywall channel onto the t-bar grid and hang the rock from that. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 14 20:58:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA08589 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:58:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA11649; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:43:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10957 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10933 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:42:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip07.ivnet.net [206.101.73.167]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28052; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:48:22 -0700 Message-ID: <3532EF83.7493CF1@ivnet.net> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:09:24 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bryan CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: HELP!!! References: <199804131053.GAA00563@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2957  

Bryan wrote:

    Hello All,
    ...
    We are planning to build on this land this summer. ...
    We are going to be building a greenhouse and turning soil this summer to
    start working on organic gardening for next summer.  ...  For an initial
    structure we are thinking about a 24' x 24' single floor structure on
    footings (we don't have an extensive budget).  We would like to know if
    anyone has imput on to the small things that we can due to get a start on
    having a "green" house. ...
It would be helpful to know in more detail what the proposed use of the "green" house is. If it's really a "greenhouse" it may be just some pipe with plastic stretched over it. If its going to be a house, then try to build it with the future in mind. We've got lots of these "temporary" buildings from the back-to-the-land movement of the early 70's around here. (I'm living in one of them.)
  • Use good foundations. I poured concrete today under an existing house which has been added on to 5 times in its 15-year life. It's on a steep hillside, and tough to get underneath. It's costing four times as much to put a foundation under it as it would if it had been built well right from the start. Much work has also gone into removing rotted posts. Even "decay-resistant" would, buried in gravel, in well-drained soil, has rotted extensively. And where the soil is a little more moist, on the perimeter, portions of the building have sunk down 3 or more inches. Good foundations can vastly extend the usable lifespan of a building, and they can make it easier to add on to also. Consider a 2-story foundation under your single story structure. You might decide to raise the roof someday. Then your upstairs would be easier to heat. And you have a smaller footprint on the land. And your property taxes will be less for the second story than for another first story building.
  • Insulate. All forms of energy used are sacred. Don't overuse the woodstove.
  • Be ready for wiring later. Either run the wires now if you can, or fasten your interior walls with screws so that you can get easy access to their insides later.
  • Build tight. Don't let the wind short-circuit your insulation. Plan for ventilation, don't just let it happen to you.
  • Keep it dry. Moisture is the major source of rot and problems in buildings. They're healthier if they're not rotting, too.
Come check out all the mistakes, and some of the the successes (considerably fewer!) made by people around here 15 or 20 years ago when faced with similar situations.

Lotsa luck.
Bruce Donelson
A Better Builder
Takilma, Oregon
  ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 14 20:58:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA08591 for ; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:58:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA11651; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:43:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10963 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10935; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 20:42:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip07.ivnet.net [206.101.73.167]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28061; Tue, 14 Apr 1998 16:48:35 -0700 Message-ID: <3532F25E.531AFEE6@ivnet.net> Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 22:21:34 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nlugsdin@total.net CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding-digest@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #146 References: <199804131116.HAA05897@wacky.total.net> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2958  

nlugsdin@total.net wrote:

does anyone have any idea how good spruce is as a candidate for cordwood
building?
we have a fair bit on our 60 acres..also aspen which I understand is
quite suitable..
Nancy Lugsdin
Tooronto
  You could also consider milling the spruce into boards. If it's moderate diameter it might go farther.

Bruce Donelson
A Better Builder
Takilma OR ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 15 18:33:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA01891 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02722; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:22:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:17:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02174 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:17:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02170 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:17:36 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id SEA00444; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:22:26 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:50:40 -0500 Subject: GBlist: SASBC April 98 Meeting Message-ID: <19980415.173549.3718.2.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5-7,12-13,17-18,22-23,27-28,31-32,35-36,41-42,46-54 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2959 April 14, 1998 For Immediate Release Contact: Steve Shepard (210)698-7109 PETER ALTMAN WITH SUSTAINABLE ENERGY AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT COALITION TO ADDRESS SAN ANTONIO SUSTAINABLE BUILDING COALITION San Antonio, Texas - The speaker for the Tuesday, 7:00 PM, April 28, 1998 meeting of the San Antonio Sustainable Building Coalition will be Peter Altman, State Director of the Sustainable Energy and Economic Development Coalition (SEED). Mr. Altman will speak on the topic of " The Present and Future of Renewable Energy Projects in Texas and San Antonio." Mr. Altman's presentation will address successful renewable energy projects currently in existence in Texas, options for San Antonio to incorporate renewable energy into the current electric generation mix and opportunities for development of a renewable energy project. The Sustainable Energy and Economic Development Coalition is an alliance of over one thousand (1000) individuals, businesses and groups that advocate the use of renewable resources (wind, solar, bio-mass) and energy efficiency to meet Texas’ electric needs and create new jobs. SEED educates Texans about the economic, environmental, and health benefits of a sustainable and renewable energy strategy. SEED also tracks relevant policy-making and legislative processes and informs the public on opportunities to voice their opinions. SEED is a joint project of Texas Citizen Fund and the Public Citizen Foundation. It is supported by contributions from national foundations as well as individuals, businesses and organizations. SEED can be contacted at Texas Citizen Fund, 401 West 29th Street, Austin, Texas 78705, (512)479-7744. The SEED Network Coordinator can be reached by Email at Maaron@io.com. The monthly meetings of the San Antonio Sustainable Building Coalition are the fourth Tuesday night of each month. Our meetings are free and open to the general public. Please make plans now to attend this meeting and learn more about sustainable building concepts, ideas, products, systems, and vendors for the South Texas region. Please make note of our new meeting location for 1998. We now meet at the Whole Foods Market at 225 E. Basse Rd., San Antonio, Texas, 78209 (210-826-4676) in the Quarry shopping center off of Highway 281 North at 7:00PM every fourth Tuesday night of each month. # # # Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 15 18:44:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA02000 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:44:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03378; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:34:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:30:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03059 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:30:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03055 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:30:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p20.ltec.net [206.158.213.30]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA17508 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:20:52 -0500 Message-ID: <3535417B.4E2BC15@navix.net> Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:23:40 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: tarpaper for solar dryers? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2960 I have a question. I need to keep occasional unexpected rains from blowing into my solar food dryer and am wondering if your basic waterproof tarpaper will gas off when the dryer is warm? Don't want to poison the food you know... so would that be my safest and cheapest solution? Sharon Eby-Martin ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 15 19:03:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02253 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:03:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05093; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:48:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04227 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:48:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04217 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:48:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA07242; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:55:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from unknown(207.223.181.228) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma006829; Wed Apr 15 17:54:46 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980415174154.00719994@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:53:31 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Excellence in Building Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2961 To -- GB-List (cc: Energy Efficient Building) [[ Reminder -- 16th Excellence in Building Conference, 1998 ]] Updated information on the 29-31, October 1998 EEBA conference can be located through OIKOS The Green Building Source and via EEBA at . * Early-bird discount sign-ups are available (pdf); * Many unique and excellent technical presentations and sessions; * Over 100 presentations, seminars, forums, posters, and workshops; * "track" layout and technical program nearing completion; * Early major sponsors have signed on... (find out who); and an * On-line map of exhibit booths, and information on reservations > soon - web-links to ALL signed exhibitors, as in 1997 < Coming soon: hotel, airline, and other details and discount packages Green Building Track --------------------- Great news! EEBA is delighted to have Alex Wilson, Executive Editor of Environmental Building News, agree to be a Track Chair in the conference. The web site of EBN is at This track will cover a two-day series of sessions on Green Building - technologies and innovations (tentative title) and will run October 30-31, 1998. EEBA really appreciates the assistance and interest of both OIKOS and EBN in getting the conference going and the word out. The Green Building track will follow a first-day session on sustainable development "big-picture" and policy issues, chaired by Andy Euston, HUD. F.R.E.E. Track ----------------- The Home Energy Rating Systems Council with the support of RESNET are helping put together a terrific three-day program on Financing Residential Energy Efficiency, this year in collaboration with the EEBA conference committee. This will be the premiere event of the year concerning residential performance assessment and energy efficiency finance. The Chairs of this track are David Lee, US EPA, and Cynthia Gardstein of the HERS Council. Also planned are extra opportunities like awards and social events targeted at HERS and Home Mortgage specialists. Sponsorship/Exhibition ------------------------ How can your group sponsor or exhibit at 16th Excellence in Building? For a complete discussion of sponsorship and exhibition opportunities for these events at the EEBA Conference 1998, contact: Liz Fox, Energy Seminars (410) 643-8360 during regular business hours (9-5:50 Eastern Time USA) or call: Bion Howard, EEBA Mid-Atlantic Office (410) 867-8000 during regular business hours (9-5:50 Eastern Time USA) # # # ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bion D. Howard, Associate Director EEBA Mid Atlantic Region Office PO Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 15 19:04:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02261 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:04:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05128; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:53:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:48:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04271 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:48:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04256 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:48:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA07305 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:55:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from unknown(207.223.181.228) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma006829; Wed Apr 15 17:54:53 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980415180935.007327ac@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:53:39 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: request Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2962 List users -- please remove the HTML tags embedded in e-mail messages. messy markup tags detracts from your messages and requests for info. | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 15 19:03:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02249 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 19:03:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05188; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:49:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04298 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04283 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:48:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA07323; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 17:55:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from unknown(207.223.181.228) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma006829; Wed Apr 15 17:55:01 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980415184955.0072d7fc@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:53:47 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Eco-housing Cc: johnsonbldg@one.net.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2963 To: Green building List Here is a general request from an Australian builder. .... (Nadav, Bruce, ???) Say, how about a green building trade/ tech exchange mission to Australia with other stops in New Zealand, etc.? I would go if the agenda was carefully planned and $$$ were right. May be schedule it for February.... ~:} ----------------------------------------------------- >Reply-To: >From: "ANDREW JOHNSON" >Subject: Eco-housing >Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 15:07:10 +1000 > >Could you please send us some references on Eco-housing. >Strawbale housing, mud brick houses, solar energy systems, etc... >Thank you E-Mail address: > >Andrew Johnson, Johnson Building >Po Box 805 Bondi Junction 2022 >0418-969367, Ph/fax 95664123 | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 15 21:34:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA05499 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:34:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12583; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:23:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:19:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12038 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:19:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12033 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:19:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.27] (blf27.acadia.net [205.217.217.27]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA22876 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:26:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 21:26:59 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Down Under Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2964 Bion has a great idea about a Northern/Southern exchange. From what I've read and heard, Australia is a very interesting study for us Americans: a country of similar demographics and a similar history of "pioneer" mentality has advanced beyond us in "green" conciousness. Why is that? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 15 23:45:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07592 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:45:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA18531; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:34:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:30:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18142 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18135 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 23:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA11659 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 20:38:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: 15 Apr 1998 20:34:46 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: HOME OWNER'S MANUAL To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id XAA18137 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2965 Those of you who missed John Abram's important home owner's manual article in Fine Homebuilding a few months back can now access it at their website Really nice work, John! Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 16 09:16:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12595 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:16:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03608; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:01:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03265 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:01:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03259 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sc14.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.207]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA03724 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:08:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3536019C.7A16@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:03:24 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: HOME OWNER'S MANUAL References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2966 Jean Gallagher wrote: > > Those of you who missed John Abram's important home owner's manual article in > Fine Homebuilding a few months back can now access it at their website > > > Really nice work, John! > > Jean Thank you Jean for a nice point and thoroughly depressing experience. John's article was as good as everyone has said, kudos John, I not only read it but printed it out to boot. That was the nice part, the depressing part came when I voted in the Fine Homebuilding Reader's Survey. The reason I let my subscription lapse in the first place was a feeling that FH was becoming another DIY magazine and if the survey is any indication, then I was right. There are still worthwhile articles and even though I don't subscribe anymore, I still usually buy a copy anyway, that'll learn 'em. Here is the survey: What do you think? What subjects would you like to see discussed more in the magazine? Energy effiency 20% Building basics 38% Environmental issues 2% History of building 5% Experimental concepts 11% Design 14% Environmental issues score a whopping 2%, while building basics stands tall at 38%, at least energy issues garnered 20%. Now there's nothing wrong with building basics other than they are just so basic, shouldn't most fine homebuilder's have these fairly well in hand, does it really need to be the thrust of a full magazine? Yes, I too learn nice little tidbits from "tips and techniques" and none of us is so expert that we can't pick up a new trick, but is that worth foregoing all of the truly critical issues facing the professional homebuilder? I don't know about the rest of you, but "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore". This is a call to arms, a get out the vote drive. I'm asking everyone of you Mother Lovers, to go to FH http://www.taunton.com/cgi-bin/survey and vote your conscience. It doesn't matter whether you are a subscriber or even if you've ever read it, if they hear your vote and make a change, you will in the future. Every member of this list should go there right now and do your civic duty and vote for Mother Nature. Forward this to all of your friends, we want a ground swell of public opinion, get out the vote, make the people at Taunton Press know what you care about. We've been sitting around debating about how best to get our message to the marketplace and they just drop the opportunity in our laps. I would say vote early and vote often, but as my former president, Milhous said, "That would be wrong?!." So I guess one vote, one conscience is the rule, but get out every conscience you can muster. Let them know that if they start pushing the important issues, we will support them with our subscription dollars. Pheuwww! I fell 20 again, like I just got transported to Berkley back in '67, that was fun. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 16 10:45:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA13766 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:45:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08583; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:35:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:29:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07908 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:28:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07898 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:28:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA25887; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:34:32 -0700 Message-ID: <35361674.9B803947@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:32:20 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: FB survey was HOME OWNER'S MANUAL References: <3536019C.7A16@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2967 Well environmental issues is up to 12% but energy efficiency has dropped to 18 (and I only voted once, honest). Well I agree the magazine definitely lack vision but but then its purpose is not to promote any values but to make money. Its unfortunate that it cannot take a more progressive role. A better designed survey would have allowed for rated choices and I think that the result would have been higher values for environmental issues. The problem with some of the articles that focus on environmental issues is that the articles sometimes become one-off focus pieces on materials or techniques that are not universally relevant - what would be useful is for them to incorporate general environmental perspectives in building basics as a status quo, but then that would involve having some vision about the future of building. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 16 10:47:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA13791 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:47:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08710; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:37:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:32:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08236 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:32:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08231 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:32:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sc14.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.207]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA00697 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:39:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353616DA.48B9@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:34:02 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: revised url for the revolution Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2968 Sorry about that, apparently I collected the url after I voted, so you get the blank screen. The correct url is: http://www.taunton.com/fh/ Hell of thing to hold a revolution and then give everyone the wrong directions to the Bastille. Abby Hoffman would have got it right the first time. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 16 10:56:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA13892 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09377; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:46:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:41:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08956 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08952 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:41:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA26088; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:47:12 -0700 Message-ID: <3536196C.60ADB651@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:45:00 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: EMF AND ELECTRICAL SPECIFICATIONS (WAS TWISTED) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2969 If anyone has more information on the twisting of wire to reduce fields I would love to hear it. Information that could be used convincingly to form part of specifications for electrical work. I have Levitt's book on EMF and could not find a reference. He does discuss field cancellation but I can't see where it would apply here. Twisting could bring the hot and neutral closer together which could have a positive effect. It would be nice to know the degree of improvement versus conduit as it would be nice to have a reason to avoid the additional expense and material of shielding. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 16 11:03:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13996 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09869; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:52:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:47:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09439 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:47:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09425 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:47:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.100.174.173] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:55:32 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Fine Homebuilding Reader Survey Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 07:53:56 -0700 x-sender: bruce@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1319409160-358893@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2970 Chuck You'll be happy to know that you haven't lost the activist touch. I just dropped by www.taunton.com to cast my vote and the tally for environment had surged to 14%. You get all the credit. Bruce S >Environmental issues score a whopping 2%, while building basics stands >tall at 38%, at least energy issues garnered 20%. Now there's nothing >wrong with building basics other than they are just so basic, shouldn't >most fine homebuilder's have these fairly well in hand, does it really >need to be the thrust of a full magazine? Yes, I too learn nice little >tidbits from "tips and techniques" and none of us is so expert that we >can't pick up a new trick, but is that worth foregoing all of the truly >critical issues facing the professional homebuilder? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 16 12:03:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16724 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13354; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:52:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:48:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12942 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12936 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:48:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LpK00431; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:53:48 EDT To: Offutt.stephen@epamail.epa.gov, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:56:25 -0700 Subject: GBlist: hazardous waste Message-ID: <19980416.115628.6550.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,7-8,12-16 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2971 Steve, I read with interest you recent posting, but noted that the figures date from 1989. That is 9 years ago. Isn't there are more current set of figures? I would think that, with more emphasis recently on recycling, and in increasing corporate production efficiency, along with the move to reduce VOC's in a number of products, that these figures might be slightly improved. I am further surprised, having worked with a couple of waste facilities, that there is not a better accounting at that level (which would, of course not include illegal dumping). The spread from 580 mil to 2.9 billion is rather vast. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 16 13:05:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA19035 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:05:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17108; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:55:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:50:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16722 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16682 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:50:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.122] (pm0a22.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.122]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA20397 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:57:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebnpr@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3536019C.7A16@dreamscape.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:50:32 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Doug Patterson Subject: GBlist: Fine Homebuilding Reader Survey Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2972 I just went into the Fine Homebuilding site and enviro is now up to 23%. Chuck's '60's revolution seems to be working! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 16 14:45:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA21990 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24490; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:35:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:30:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23917 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:30:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stan.lcc.net (secure.lcc.net [207.70.172.248]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23912 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lcc.net (hunt-pri3-a5.lcc.net [207.70.180.101]) by stan.lcc.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id NAA17320 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:40:26 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <353651EC.FBCC5EAB@lcc.net> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:46:04 -0500 From: Kim Travis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GBlist Subject: GBlist: paper Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2973 I am looking for a cheap something with which to make raised garden beds. Wood is very expensive to allow to just rot, especially if you want to raise to beds high enough to allow for a bad back. In this area of Texas, there is no place to recycle 50 lb. feed bags. I can figure out how to compact and bale the bags without killing myself in the process. If this idea pans out, I am thinking about building my fence with them as well as other features on my property. The questions I have about this idea are as follows: 1. How long will the bag bales last before needing to be replaced? 2. Will painting the bags help to preserve them, if so what kind of paint is safe to use in a vegetable garden? 3. Will stucco preserve them? Can I use a mud stucco or must it be cement? Any other information that you think could help me with this idea would be appreciated. Thankyou. Kim Travis The Rose Colored Forest Bedias, Tx [Conviently located in the middle of nowhere] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 16 14:53:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA22241 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25147; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:43:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:39:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24715 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:39:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24710 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:39:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA19107 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:46:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3536019C.7A16@dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:44:40 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Fine Homebuilding Reader Survey Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2974 980416 Packing the court of opinion, are we? What good are such #s indicating concern by homebuilders for enviro if you are rigging the voting by pushing persons of one certain view to go out of their way to vote? Reminds me of the restaurant owners who get customers to stuff the virtual ballot boxes in surveys about most popular eating establishments. It's not valid statistically and therefore bogus. Maybe you are making a statement, rattling some cages, and maybe I am not completely up to date on this thread, but it seems to have a high bogus potential. I deplore tampering with statistics. It undermines the general public's respect for valid statistical results in even more important areas, like medical research. I can hear my father now on Surgeon General Luther Terry's 1964 report on smoking & health: "...Hmph, there're lies, damn lies and statistics..." He later died of lung & prostate cancer. jh >I just went into the Fine Homebuilding site and enviro is now up to 23%. >Chuck's '60's revolution seems to be working! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 16 15:33:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA23231 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:33:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28694; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:23:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:19:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA27721 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27714 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:18:44 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PIT00444; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:22:00 EDT To: hardwick@ordinary.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:32:42 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Fine Homebuilding Reader Survey Message-ID: <19980416.143727.3774.4.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <3536019C.7A16@dreamscape.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,8-9,12-22,24-33 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2975 It is somewhat encouraging to me that the interest level for building basics was so high. When I consider our society is rapidly becoming a culture of people who can produce very little and talk too damn much it is refreshing to note that there people out there who actually would like to know how things work and how they can help make them. Hopefully a more educated builder, home buyer or user will make the positive decision to build energy efficient and as Earth friendly as possible. Environmentalism would be more successful in general if the attitude and implementation were not so focused on repressing the private sector for the sake of political interests and the ecology. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:44:40 -0400 "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" writes: >980416 > >Packing the court of opinion, are we? > >What good are such #s indicating concern by homebuilders for enviro if >you >are rigging the voting by pushing persons of one certain view to go >out of >their way to vote? _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 16 15:50:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA23636 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:50:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00172; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:36:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA29778 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA29772 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa5-p40.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.232]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA00509 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:43:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35365E2E.438C@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 15:38:22 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Green building list Subject: Re: GBlist: Fine Homebuilding Reader Survey References: <3536019C.7A16@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2976 Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA wrote: > > 980416 > > Packing the court of opinion, are we? Hardly, Jim. Did you visit the Fine Homebuilding site to see the critical nature of the statistical data being compiled? The question they are asking is what would we, the readership like to see more of, I don't know about you but I would certainly like to see FH do much more with environmental issues. I have absolutely no qualms with answering the questions they have posed and see nothing wrong with soliciting like minded friends to vote their conscience. We are not shifting the scientific data on aids research here, we are expressing a genuine desire to see more valid journalistic endeavors in an area we deem, at least, as important as the Surgeon General's report on cancer and tobacco. In fact, I would venture to say, we might be helping to steer FH readership toward a greater awareness of the health issues directly related to homebuilding in this day and age. If you choose to vote for another agenda, I certainly respect your right to do that and would never try to disenfranchise your vote. Please vote your conscience by all means, but don't get a readership poll that is asking for input into future editorial decisions mixed up with the US census or statistical analysis of leukemia incidence at Love Canal, NY. I will sleep soundly tonight, knowing that I have perhaps helped to bring to the attention of Taunton Press, the genuine desire of many FH readers, to see an increased effort on their part to publish articles relevent to our interests. > > What good are such #s indicating concern by homebuilders for enviro if you > are rigging the voting by pushing persons of one certain view to go out of > their way to vote? It's not valid statistically and therefore bogus. Maybe > you are making a statement, rattling some cages, and maybe I am not > completely up to date on this thread, but it seems to have a high bogus > potential. > > I deplore tampering with statistics. It undermines the general public's > respect for valid statistical results in even more important areas, The thread that you may have missed was primarily about how do we change the paradigm of building decision making on the part of the general public, the home buyer as well as the builder/designer. The marketplace must change it's perception of "Green" and "value" and "Home", in order to even begin to make a dent in the business as usual mentality. Without that kind of paradigm shift in the marketplace, it's my opinion that this type of forum is just so much intellectual wanking and of virtually no significance in the long run. We will have entertained ourselves for a time and watched as the biosphere disintegrates around us, eventually poisoning us, rather than nurturing us. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 16 17:32:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA28395 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:32:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05567; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:17:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05103 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:17:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05099 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:17:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Frugally4u@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4EQFa27907 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:24:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Frugally4u Message-ID: <7642ab51.353676ff@aol.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:24:13 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Building small - cheap - & beautiful! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2977 I'd like to start a new thread on ideas for building small, but beautiful. My husband & I are buying a piece of property that is 60 acres. We have LOTS of mature timber - mostly pine & black cherry, water - pond, river, bridge, stream -, and a road already in place. The former owner used this land to camp on. He made his own well with a pipe just pushed in the ground. His great uncle even had electric from the river out back! We've looked into many different building methods including; cordwood, stone, cob, log, etc... We would like to hear different ideas on best use of small spaces, ( we're planning on a 24 X 30 house to start with), and CHEAP building ideas. We'd like to be in something by fall of this year. So many people are looking into these same things & I think all of your ideas would help a great deal! ps. we also have 4 little ones! Pearl http://members.aol.com/frugally4u ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 16 17:45:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA28601 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:45:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06441; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:35:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:31:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA06091 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:31:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06087 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:31:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Frugally4u@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4OPHa15616 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:38:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Frugally4u Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:38:08 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: raised beds idea Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2978 In a message dated 98-04-16 14:39:56 EDT, you write: << To: (GBlist) I am looking for a cheap something with which to make raised garden beds. Wood is very expensive to allow to just rot, especially if you want to raise to beds high enough to allow for a bad back. >> Kim, I just read a great idea about making raised beds from hay bales. You just put the bales where you'd like for your garden to be. Remove the hay from the top of the bale, where you'd like your planting holes. ( ex. if you plant tomatoes you could probably put 6 plants in 1 bale) Fill with planting soil & compost. Water in. Fill in again. Plant! This way you don't have to weed - or dig up the soil in the first place! Then the following year, if you want, you can spread those bales over the planting space - then get new bales and place them a few feet over. This way you are making a great space to have a big garden. But in your case - back ache - just keep doing the same thing each year. This is what I plan to do this year, because we are moving to new - undeveloped - land. We want a small garden this year & we have to build our house. So this method takes only an hour or so ( with regular waterings) to complete! A good way to keep the whole thing watered is; place a couple of milk jugs with small holes in the bottom - filled with water, on top of the bale. The water will slowly seep into the bales. Just fill the jugs as needed. Pearl @{--{--------- Frugal by Choice http://members.aol.com/frugally4u ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 16 18:13:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA29150 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07810; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:59:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA07488 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:59:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA07483 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Frugally4u@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4NXLa12207 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:06:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Frugally4u Message-ID: <27c6f614.353680d2@aol.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:06:09 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Building small - cheap - & beautiful! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2979 In a message dated 98-04-16 18:01:08 EDT, you write: << From: Pbsustain Where are you located? That will have some bearing but if you can thin trees, that's a good building material...as a kid my mom used some local guys and a horse to cut and haul the trees...then built a log cabin..worked great...you could insulate...maybe getplans for a log cabin and improvise a little....just an intial thought... :) >> We're in Upstate NY. Cold & lots of snow in the winter ;) Pearl @{--{------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 16 19:34:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02278 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11780; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:24:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:19:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11436 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:19:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from shells1.intranet.ca (shells1.intranet.ca [206.51.251.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA11432 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:19:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.186.170.70] (rover.neuma.com [206.186.170.70]) by shells1.intranet.ca (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA16386 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:31:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:31:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: larsson@intranet.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nils Larsson Subject: GBlist: GBList Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2980 Please remove my name from your list. Thank you. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 16 21:19:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA05980 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:19:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15605; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:08:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:03:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15334 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:03:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV (dcsmtp.wictok7.epa.gov [161.80.160.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15326 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:03:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 16:35:14 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 16:22:00 -0400 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT To: greenbuilding@crest.org, environs.com@juno.com Subject: GBlist: hazardous waste -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2981 Alas, but I do not work anywhere near that part of EPA (thankfully), so the message from me did not incorporate any official EPA knowledge. I am sure there are more current data. Does anyone else want to dig it up? I would be surprised if the positive changes companies have made since then have offset the additional waste that is being created by a growing economy, just as improvements in energy efficiency have been swamped by increases in energy use over the last decade. Steve >>> Beverly A. Weiter 04/16/98 02:56pm >>> Steve, I read with interest you recent posting, but noted that the figures date from 1989. That is 9 years ago. Isn't there are more current set of figures? I would think that, with more emphasis recently on recycling, and in increasing corporate production efficiency, along with the move to reduce VOC's in a number of products, that these figures might be slightly improved. I am further surprised, having worked with a couple of waste facilities, that there is not a better accounting at that level (which would, of course not include illegal dumping). The spread from 580 mil to 2.9 billion is rather vast. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 16 23:13:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07584 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21103; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:57:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA20694 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:57:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20681 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa7-p48.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.176]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id XAA17249 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3536C595.F1D@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:59:34 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Chemical Scoreboard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2982 Today's Wired News has a piece on the Environmental Defence Funds newest venture, an internet site called the Chemical Scorecard. You can find the latest figures and facts about your zipcode regarding hazardous materials produced nearby. It can even be customized for the individual, if you are pregnant for instance, it will prioritize the data accordingly. http://www.wired.com/news/news/culture/story/11708.html The EDF site, Chemical Scorecard can be reached at: http://www.scorecard.org/ Who are the polluters in your neighborhood? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 17 09:34:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA14182 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:34:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07591; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:23:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:17:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06930 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:17:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06924 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:17:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sover.net (usr1a60.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.188]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA19831 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:24:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35375815.650F05BE@sover.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:24:37 -0400 From: Eric Warren X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuild List Subject: GBlist: Building Materials Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2983 Hi all, As a portion of my master's thesis I am doing on ecological building practices, I would like to put together a reasonably comprehensive booklet on building materials. I have noticed that there is a lot of information out there on the web about various environmentally friendly materials, but I have yet to see anything which looks at all building materials - conventional and alternative. I would like to compile a list of materials used in building which begins with raw materials (wood, metal, petroleum, straw, earth, etc) and how they are used, and then goes on to list composite materials. For each material I would like to discuss how it is used, where it comes from, what it's strengths and weaknesses are for common uses, what it's environmental effects are, how long it will last, what alternatives are available, etc. My thinking is that the process of building is at least as important as the materials used - so I would like to put the materials on sort of an equal plane and discuss each material for how it can be best used. Does anyone know of any material out there which does this or would be helpful to me? I haven't done the library research yet and being in rural Vermont I have to visit several libraries over about a 50 mile radius to really get a sense of what is available. I would also much appreciate any suggestions for materials to be included in the list, or if anyone has information on specific materials they feel passionately about and want to send me info on - that would be great. Thanx -Eric Warren (ewarren@sover.net) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 17 10:06:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14621 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09021; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:55:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:50:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA08718 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:50:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08714 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:50:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA27442; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 06:55:56 -0700 Message-ID: <35375EE0.7A65D573@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 06:53:37 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Warren CC: GreenBuild List Subject: Re: GBlist: Building Materials References: <35375815.650F05BE@sover.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2984 Hi Eric 'Environmental by Design' by Kim LeClair and David Rousseau is a sourcebook of material choices for use in construction. It is not as comprehensive as you intend. I like your comment about process and in a manual could see that expanded as a discussion of historical versus contemporary technique - the interest there is synergistic function of composite materials or material usage (an example would be historical lime earth mixes as a stucco application versus contemporary stucco applications). A good model for such a text is the classic 'Artists handbook of materials and techniques' by Ralph Mayer which is incredibly comprehensive. It would be wonderful to see a similar approach to building materials. The problem as I see it is that building materials are individually defined less by potential or function than the conditions of their composite manufacture and sale. There are a lot of wonderful materials out there ideally suited for various purposes but as we have seen there usage is limited by availability and convention. The book by LeClair and Rousseau you will notice discusses a lot of products as opposed to generic materials. This makes the book useful but dates it quickly. A book of materials as opposed to products would be useful as a way of defining a product (I spend a lot of time trying to determine just what a product is made of) but it would be difficult to access. A difficult project. Just some thoughts Best John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Eric Warren wrote: > Hi all, > > As a portion of my master's thesis I am doing on ecological building > practices, I would like to put together a reasonably comprehensive > booklet on building materials. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 17 10:46:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15214 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11373; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:36:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:30:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11033 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:30:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11028 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:30:31 -0400 (EDT) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 23290 invoked by uid 0); 17 Apr 1998 14:38:51 -0000 Received: from ppp-15.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.208?) (198.175.11.208) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 17 Apr 1998 14:38:51 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:44:40 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: EMF AND ELECTRICAL SPECIFICATIONS (WAS TWISTED) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2985 ----------------- John asked: If anyone has more information on the twisting of wire to reduce fields I would love to hear it. Information that could be used convincingly to form part of specifications for electrical work. I have Levitt's book on EMF and could not find a reference. He does discuss field cancellation but I can't see where it would apply here. Twisting could bring the hot and neutral closer together which could have a positive effect. It would be nice to know the degree of improvement versus conduit as it would be nice to have a reason to avoid the additional expense and material of shielding. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. -------------------- John, I'm interested in this topic and would love to hear anything you dig up on it. I can't offer you "Information that could be used convincingly to form part of specifications for electrical work", but I can offer a bit of insight. My understanding is that twisting is effective not so much because it brings wires closer together, but because the actual geometry of the twisted wires makes their fields cancel. A certain number of twists per foot will be optimum for a certain frequency (presumably 60 Hz for North American power wiring). You'll have to look up your electromagnetism in a physics text to show why it works (remember the "right hand rule" from high school physics?), but electronics techies have assured me it does work. It is actually one of the main recommendations to reduce electromagnetic interference from inverter wires. (Inverters are devices which typically take low voltage DC electricity and convert it to high voltage AC electricity). The low voltage side of inverters can carry very large currents and are therefore large generators of EMF. Twisting of wires is also commonly used inside audio electronics and computers to prevent internal interference. And, you should be aware that shielding with such things as metal conduit is almost totally ineffective at reducing the magnetic component of Electro-Magnetic Fields (EMF). The magnetic component is the one most implicated in health affects. Many aspects of EMF will become clear if you purchase a simple meter for measuring them and then wander around your house or business and check things out. For about $150 I got a Tri-metric meter and it has been invaluable to understanding where the significant exposures of EMF come from, and how to reduce them. Very likely you are getting more exposure from sitting in front of your computer each day than you will ever get from the house wiring ... unless you spend much time within a few feet of the main electrical entrance of the building. So, perhaps that is why there isn't a lot of effort to use twisted wires. Wiring as a source of exposure pales in comparison to certain electrical appliances and devices. Hope this reply wasn't too twisted, Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 17 11:08:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA15526 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:08:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12514; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:58:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:53:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11984 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11977 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:52:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mnsinc.com (a0034.culpeper.mns.net [206.239.106.66]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA01482 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:00:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353798CF.EDD9EF62@mnsinc.com> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:00:48 -0700 From: khassan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Hydronic Design Toolkit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2986 Anyone know where I might find the stand alone software for Modern Hydronic Heating..............John Siegenthaler. I have the book and just need the software. Amazon.com doesn't sell the software separate from the book. Thanks K. Hassan khassan@mnsinc.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 17 11:47:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16472 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14688; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:33:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:28:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14310 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:28:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stan.lcc.net (secure.lcc.net [207.70.172.248]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14306 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:28:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lcc.net (hunt-pri3-a25.lcc.net [207.70.180.121]) by stan.lcc.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id KAA19688 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:38:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <353778CA.A99E474F@lcc.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:44:11 -0500 From: Kim Travis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GBlist Subject: GBlist: paper again Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2987 Hi All, Yesterday I wrote and asked a few questions about using paper bales to build a garden. I recieved an interesting alternative about using hay bales instead, unfortunately this is of little help. Hay bales are about $3.00 to $5.00 a piece in this part of the world. Straw bales are more because they come in from a 80 -100 miles away. People here BURN feed bags to get rid of them. There is no recycle that will take them. I have tried to find the decomposition time for baled paper by checking info on landfill sites etc. No luck. If anyone has any information on how baled paper stands up, please let me know. Thankyou Kim Travis The Rose Colored Forest Bedias, Tx [Conviently located in the middle of nowhere] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 17 12:35:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17510 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:35:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17684; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:24:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:19:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17061 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:18:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu (eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17057 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kurt (dialin095.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.105]) by eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_12836)/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA29240; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35377B44.7AA7@uidaho.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:54:44 -0700 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: khassan CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Hydronic Design Toolkit References: <353798CF.EDD9EF62@mnsinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2988 I requested and received a copy of Wirsbo's Radiant Express 4.5. I haven't installed it yet, but it might be useful to you. You can contact them via their website at www.wirsbo.com Kurt Rathmann Moscow, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 17 12:35:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17515 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17798; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:25:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:20:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17164 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17156 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.111] (pm0a11.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.111]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA17797; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:27:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3536196C.60ADB651@cow-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: John Salmen From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF AND ELECTRICAL SPECIFICATIONS (WAS TWISTED) Cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2989 Hello John, We addressed this in an article on EMF in Environmental Building News in March-April 1994 (Vol. 3, No. 2). Unfortunately, that article is not up on our website, but it is available in our CD of back issues. Since the time we wrote that article, there has been a reduction in concern about elecromagnetic fields, based on several extensive epidemiological studies, but I still feel that the "prudent avoidance" strategies we listed in our checklist are a good idea. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Buidling News http://www.ebuild.com At 7:45 AM -0700 4/16/98, John Salmen wrote: >If anyone has more information on the twisting of wire to reduce fields >I would love to hear it. Information that could be used convincingly to >form part of specifications for electrical work. I have Levitt's book on >EMF and could not find a reference. He does discuss field cancellation >but I can't see where it would apply here. Twisting could bring the hot >and neutral closer together which could have a positive effect. It would >be nice to know the degree of improvement versus conduit as it would be >nice to have a reason to avoid the additional expense and material of >shielding. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 17 12:40:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17592 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:40:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18125; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:29:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:24:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17638 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:24:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17626 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:24:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.100.174.173] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0); Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:32:22 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Hydronic Design Toolkit Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:30:45 -0700 x-sender: bruce@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1319316951-323863@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2990 You can buy the software and the book seperately from the Iris Catalog or call 800-346-0104. Bruce S >Anyone know where I might find the stand alone software for Modern >Hydronic Heating..............John Siegenthaler. I have the book and >just need the software. Amazon.com doesn't sell the software separate >from the book. Thanks > >K. Hassan >khassan@mnsinc.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 17 13:42:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18639 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21793; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:26:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21439 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:26:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21435 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id MAA0000025613; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:33:27 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980417173600.0068929c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:36:00 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: planting in hay bales Cc: Frugally4u@aol.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2991 "Remove the hay from the top of the bale, where you'd like your planting holes. ( ex. if you plant tomatoes you could probably put 6 plants in 1 bale)" Dear Frugally and Kim, Before you plant in bales (not a bad idea if you want a small garden) please check out the amount of space each plant requires. Tomatoes, for instance, would take up one bale, ie one tomato plant, one bale. Wood, by the way, would take a long time to decompose or fall apart if you use the right kind. I believe the sun would cause the bags to fall apart real fast. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 17 13:51:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18826 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22419; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:41:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:36:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21997 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21992 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Frugally4u@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4WOLa23304 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:42:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Frugally4u Message-ID: <1598e99f.35379487@aol.com> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:42:29 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: planting in hay bales Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 170 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2992 In a message dated 4/17/98 1:33:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu writes: > Dear Frugally and Kim, > Before you plant in bales (not a bad idea if you want a small > garden) please check out the amount of space each plant requires. Tomatoes, > for instance, would take up one bale, ie one tomato plant, one bale. _______________________ Depending on how large the bale is ---- as in square foot gardening ---- you could place 1 - 3 tomatoes in 1 bale. I've done square foot gardening & it works great! I had many 2 lb. tomatoes! I on the other hand have not worked with hay bale gardening, but will apply the same principles . Thanks, Pearl ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 17 14:03:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19011 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:03:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23147; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:47:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22736 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22724 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4MRNa15615 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:53:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:53:49 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Candles & Soot Stains Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2993 A growing number of incidents of soot deposition from scented and/or aromatic candles are being blamed on builders, H/VAC manufacturers, installation & repair companies & contractors. Until recently, there was little compelling evidence or proof to direct the blame to candle use. Tests recently conducted have confirmed the source of this soot deposition. Further testing is still on going; however, if you are facing the charge or claim that work you performed or equipment you installed is responsible for this type of damage, it MAY actually be from candles. There's enough information available now to directly link this type of soot deposition to candles. Any information regarding examples of cases I've described above would be most appreciated. In return, I will gladly provide the names & contact information to the IAQ, Building Science and Combustion Experts who have been enormously helpful in researching this problem. Subj: An Emerging Indoor Air Quality Issue (copy of letter sent to ARI, ASHRAE, ACCA, NADCA and NAHB) According to several IAQ (Indoor Air Quality) Specialists soot deposition & contamination from candle use in residences is becoming a more frequent problem due to the popularity of scented and/or aromatic candles. We still haven't determined the impact of this exposure to health, tests are currently underway. A report has been filed with the CPSC regarding a particular make of aromatic candles (CPSC Product Report # H9790225A). The emissions and soot produced by some of these scented and/or aromatic candles can not only damage a home, it's contents and the ventilation system but there is evidence that it also can also present a health hazard from breathing sub-micron particulate soot emitted, especially to children, the elderly or anyone with a compromised respiratory system. Sub-micron means > 1 micron, the EPA and the American Lung Assn. have determined that particulate matter 2.5 microns and smaller are the most detrimental to our health. These particles are so small they are able to pass thru our body's own "filter system", as a result they are inhaled deep with in the lungs and absorbed by the bloodstream or can become imbedded in the linings of the lungs. It is currently speculated (by Chemists, IAQ Specialist and other scientists) that the cause of this is due to candle manufacturers adding more & more essential and fragranced oils (some of which are not even suitable for combustion) to candles in order to achieve a higher or more intense fragrance while burning. It also appears that many inexperienced & amateur candlemakers have jumped into the manufacturing of candles to capitalize on their current popularity without the proper training or expertise. The result is an abundance of inferior or poorly performing candles burning in alot of homes. I have a sizable amount of research on this issue and would be happy to pass it on or put you in touch with some of the professionals I have been communicating with on a regular basis regarding this emerging issue. We are likely to see an increasing incidence of soot damage from candles in homes, since candle sales are at an all time high with further growth expected (according to a study performed by Kline & Co.). As a side note, I have spoken to no less than 10 builders, H/VAC companies (as of 3/31 I've heard from or about 22 of these cases + counting) &/or contractors around the country who have been the target of litigation or pending civil action as a direct result of soot deposition from candles. At least check into this issue so you can educate your membership, then they will be able to defend themselves in these court cases! Regards, rkfabf@aol.com Here are a few links to further info: "Graying of the Walls" http://www.housing.wwu.edu/staff/mike/facility.htm "Black Stains in Houses: Soot, Dust or Ghosts? http://www.homeenergy.org/198ghost.html Indoor Air Quality & Candles http://members.tripod.com/~rkfabf/index.html Frank Vigil - Building Science Expert with A. E. http://www.aec.ncsu.edu/staff/fvigil.htm Energy Efficient Building Assn message board http://www.eeba.org/ee-building-list-archive/msg00271.html Article on Aromatic Candles /September 1997:Cover Story http://www.happi.com/special/sep972.htm Bailey Engineering Home Page http://members.aol.com/BaileyIAQ/ E-Mail Section of "Graying of the Walls" http://www.housing.wwu.edu/staff/mike/graywall/soot.html DN - Black pattern stains on walls and ceilings http://x10.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=339292132.1&search=thread&threaded=1&CONT EXT=891355511.662241326&HIT_CONTEXT=891354930.661192711&HIT_NUM=10&hitnum=0&NT L=1 PS. With construction advances allowing builders to produce a "tighter" (fewer air exchanges) & more energy efficient home this is a problem we are likely to see occurring more & more frequently in newly constructed homes. Keep in mind it is not the home or the H/VAC system that is causing the soot deposition, it's scented &/or aromatic candles - the tighter conditions just allow for the deposition to accumulate & become evident to the homeowner more quickly. Unfortunately, once it has gotten to the stage where it's obvious or noticable it's often too late to prevent alot of the property damage. Apparent soot deposition on walls, plastics, & electronics and other items, not in the general vacinity of the candle, typically indicates that the H/VAC system & ducts have been contaminated. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 17 16:47:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA23285 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00883; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:30:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00379 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:30:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eypdc04.eypae.com (eypdc04.eypae.com [205.234.22.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00369 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by eypdc04.eypae.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id <2TM9AJ21>; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:38:18 -0400 Message-ID: From: Mike Fowler To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: President's Million Solar Roofs Initiative Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:30:43 -0400 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2994 I went to the video downlink on Wed. afternoon and wanted to pass along my take of the show and the million solar roof initiative. There were promotional video segments for the initiative between segments of guest panel discussion. The discussion was between one moderator and a group of 5 or 6 people from mostly government agencies, and some from private industry and non-profit groups. The video portion showed various uses of solar panels, some clips of President Clinton speeches and Frederico Pena describing the program. After each video clip a new set of 5 or 6 would come on for a 10-15 minute discussion. Not a very lively discussion, one question from the moderator and a short answer from a panel member and on down the row of guests. The video portion showed some recent commercial solar examples: - An Applebee's restaurant in North Carolina integrating a solar roof into a sun room type dining area - The NAHB Demonstration Townhouses in Bowie, MD which used solar shingles. In the video they looked very similar to a metal standing seam roof and looked quite attractive. - A new office building in New York City, 4 Times Square, a 48 story building utilizing solar cells The initiative itself relies heavily on the participation of individuals and state/local community government for the goal of reaching one million new solar roof systems installed by the year 2010. Let's take a look at the numbers proposed in the initiative. The federal government is committed to installing 20,000 solar roof systems on federal buildings at a cost of $200 million dollars ($10,000 per site). That means individuals, local businesses and community government will be installing the other 980,000 solar roof systems. To break it down further, the federal government says they own 500,000 buildings, which is .5% of all the U.S. buildings, making 100 million buildings total in the country (don't know if they include residential or not). So while the federal sector contributing 20,000 roofs may seem like a large number it is 2% of the one million goal, and only 4% of all federal buildings. As a comparison the non-federal sector will make up 98% of the million goal, which means putting a new solar roof on just 1% on non-federal buildings. While I am happy that there is the million solar roofs initiative, I feel it is a minimal commitment from the federal government. The city of Sacramento CA has a S.M.U.D. program that is contributing 25,000 roofs by themselves, more than the entire federal government. If there was a significant pledge of say 20% of all federal buildings, could you imagine a pledge of 100,000 solar roofs, that would be a great start and show a definite commitment. So where would the federal money come from, that would be $1 billion dollars for 100,000 roofs? I think the obvious place is to tax the living shit out of fossil fuels. The government currently spends $3 billion dollars a year to heat, cool, light and power their buildings (isn't it amazing what you can read on the web). Think of the money not spent with the energy cost savings or a payback period probably within 5 years. With that combination of roofs and fossil fuel tax, then I would believe the political leaders of this country are serious about environmental issues and solar technology. That would also really focus the population on alternate sources of energy. The one million total roofs is a nice round number, but in terms of building for the 21st century and the goal year of 2010, I think a number of 2.1 million roofs would have capitalized on the new century and the target year. That would mean 2 million solar roofs on non-federal buildings or 2% of existing buildings. A realistic goal? If there was a substantial federal commitment I believe that would spark the solar industry, increase competition, reduce prices, maybe even foster further technological developments. Reaching that 2% might be possible, even too low a number. Just some thoughts. I realize this is a long post. Thanks for reading. Mike ________________________________ Michael E. Fowler Registered Architect, State of New York Einhorn Yaffee Prescott Architecture & Engineering, P.C. The Argus Building PO Box 617 Broadway at Beaver Street Albany NY 12201-0617 EYP Web Site: http://www.eypae.com/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 17 18:01:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA24299 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA04582; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:45:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04189 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:44:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04185 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:44:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.118] (ub21.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.118]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA20949 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:51:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980413.113535.6566.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980413104928.0069dc38@cyberia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:59:59 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulating above ceilings Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2995 >Hi, > >I have a similar situation. My office is in a concrete block building, >warehouse type, with flat room and large overhead door in back. The >built out part of the showroom has a suspended 2x2 grid ceiling. With >the east/west orientation and large east facing window and west facing >metal overhead door this place gets really hot, particularly being in >humid S. Florida. > >When I moved in there was no insulation above the ceiling or at the roof >deck. After a few months of horrendous electric bills I took in on >myself to lay insulation directly on the suspended ceiling. > >That was two years ago and so far no problems and an average of $20- $40 >per month saving on the electric. > >Beverly Weiter >Environs Interiors >Boca Raton, FL Beverly, I am glad to hear that you were able to reduce your energy bill. My guess is that you can make further savings if you can air seal the ceiling or move the insulation up against the roof deck. For me, the issue with T-bar ceiling is that it is so leaky. I recently tested a town hall with T-bar ceiling and found that the leakage area through the ceiling (w/ 6" fiberglass batts laid on them) was around 1000 square inches for 3500 square foot of ceiling. This amounts to around 6 cfm@50 per square foot of ceiling. This ceiling was in bad shape. More typical are 2 to 3 cfm@50 pascals per square foot of ceiling. Either way, your air barrier and thermal barrier are not in the same plane. I have found this to be a bad idea. These issues are best documented in the FSEC report on unintended airflows in commercial buildings. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 17 18:16:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA24551 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05178; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:00:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04932 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:00:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04925 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:00:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.118] (ub21.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.118]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA25010 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:07:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:16:13 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: "Inventing for the Environment - Smithsonian Series" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2996 Hi folks, This came in from the ECDM list and I thought it would be of interest to gbers. - Terry >INVENTING FOR THE ENVIRONMENT > >The Lemelson Center at the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum >of American History announces "Inventing for the Environment," a >series of free lectures, tours, films, an exhibit, and a full-day >symposium, exploring environmental history, public policy and >technological innovation. > >LECTURE SERIES >"Dialogues on Inventing for the Environment" >Co-sponsored by AT&T >Environmental experts bring their innovative ideas on energy, health, >transportation, industrial ecology, history and urbanism to these >evening discussions. All lectures begin at 6:30 p.m. at the National >Museum of American History, 14th Street and Constitution Avenue, NW. > >**MONDAY, APRIL 20** -- Amory Lovins, director of research and >co-founder of the Rocky Mountain Institute, describes creative >solutions to current energy problems in his talk on "Negawatts, >Hypercars and Natural Capitalism." Lovins is introduced by Braden >Allenby, vice president, Environment, Health and Safety, AT&T. > >Wednesday, May 13 -- Braden Allenby, vice president, Environment, >Health and Safety, AT&T, discusses how industrial ecology can be used >as a tool to further thinking on environmental policies and >technologies. > >Friday, June 5 -- Devra Lee Davis, director of the program in Health, >Environment and Development at the World Resources Institute, >addresses environmental risk factors that can cause breast cancer. > >Friday, September 11 -- Stephen Pyne, historian at Arizona State >University, chronicles the history of the environment. For the past >fifteen years, he has framed the ecohistory debate and written about >the cultural history of fire. > >Friday, October 23 -- Author and architect Paolo Soleri describes >America's "new urbanism." Soleri is best known for creating >Arcosanti, an avant garde, prototype community in the central Arizona >desert. > >TOURS >"Inventing Nature" >A series of walking, bus and boating tours highlights the invention >of nature in the city with visits to parks and natural reserves of >the greater Washington area. Tour leaders discuss the history of >creating recreational green spaces, including the National Zoo, the >Mall, and the banks of the Potomac, and pointing out their >technological roots. Tours will start at NMAH from August-October. > >EXHIBIT >"Who Invented the Environment?" >This exhibit explores the connection between society's romantic ideal >of "Nature," as illustrated by the work of John James Audubon, Ansel >Adams, and others, and the invention of scientific instruments that >measure how reality compares with the ideal. Opening in >mid-September. > >FILMS >Friday Night Films >Hollywood features and sci-fi classics offer a different take on >inventing for the environment. July 24 and 31 and August 7, 14, and >21 in Carmichael Auditorium at NMAH. > >SYMPOSIUM >"Inventing for the Environment" >Saturday, November 7 >A full-day symposium addressing key issues in involved in inventing >for the environment brings together scholars, inventors and the >public. Speakers include Braden Allenby and the Smithsonian's Tom >Lovejoy, counselor to the Secretary for Biodiversity and >Environmental Affairs. > >All events are free and open to the public. Registration is required. >To register, fax your name, address, and phone number to (202)357-4517 >or e-mail lemcen@nmah.si.edu. For further information, call >(202)357-2700. > >TOWN MEETING >Earth Day National Town meeting, "Global Warming: Local Solutions" >Wednesday, April 22 >Participate in a National Town Meeting videoconference coordinated by >Renew America, a national organization dedicated to promoting >environmental initiatives, at the National Museum of American History >from 1:00 to 4:30 p.m. A regional sustainability forum follows, >providing local citizens with an opportunity to discuss the regions >most pressing environmental issues. To register, call 1-800-922-RENEW >or e-mail requests to renewamerica@igc.org. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 17 18:37:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA24878 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:37:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05925; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:21:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05591 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05587 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:21:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.70.81 (pm2-81.hoosier.net [206.106.70.81]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA26420 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:28:18 -0500 Message-ID: <35379105.7BDA@bloomington.in.us> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:27:34 +0000 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF AND ELECTRICAL SPECIFICATIONS (WAS TWISTED) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2997 For most residential applications, twisting wires to reduce EMFs seems to be overkill. Romex already has the wires close enough together that fields are minimal, UNLESS SOMETHING IS WIRED WRONG. "Tracing EMFs in Building Wiring and Grounding" by Karl Riley is a very good source to understand where and when simple (and somewhat common) wiring errors cause high-strength fields. It's $30 from Magnetic Sciences International, HCR-2, Box 850-295, Tucson, AZ 85735, (800) 749-9873, (602) 822-2355. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 17 21:08:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA27669 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:08:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12093; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:53:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11838 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA11834 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:52:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA25196 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:00:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35379105.7BDA@bloomington.in.us> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:16:40 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: re EMF Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2998 980417 1852est For a freebie on some of the common wiring errors, check out http://www.mikeholt.com where the author of Understanding the NEC has an article by Karl Riley on the subject (look under "case studies"), as well as a layman's book recommendation on EMF. Also has Riley's e-mail address. And a way to order his own book for $28 from Holt. Most common (pun not intended) is the foolish or just lazy electrian's practice of bonding neutrals (the white wire) in junction or other boxes away from the service panel. This can generate EMFs due to an unbalanced return path for current. Unimformed homeowners equate the panel combining of common ground & neutral wires with doing so in other areas. Big time uncanceled fields can result. Being a layman, I may have some of the terminology wrong. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 18 09:37:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12860 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:37:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02624; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:21:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02386 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:21:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02382 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:21:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.111] (pm3a19.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.209]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA20093 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:28:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:28:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: David Seth Melchert Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF AND ELECTRICAL SPECIFICATIONS (WAS TWISTED) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 2999 Alex Wilson wrote: > > Since the time > we wrote that article, there has been a reduction in concern about > elecromagnetic fields, based on several extensive epidemiological studies, > but I still feel that the "prudent avoidance" strategies we listed in our > checklist are a good idea. > My 2 cents: First, I have several customers who are HIGHLY sensitive to EMF's in various ways. On one project for a woman with multiple chemical sensitivity I was putting up a screen on one side of her house and started to drive screws with a battery drill. She appeared around the corner looking very distressed asking what I was doing that sent her heart into such discomfort. She didn't have any idea what I was up to at the moment, but even the weak field sent out by 9.6v DC across a house was enough to upset her. The other client can hardly sleep if the circuits for her bedroom are left on at night. OK, two anecdotes from highly sensitive people, but it is prudent for me to better understand the principles better at least for them. I echo your words, Alex, prudent avoidence is good. Second, we happen to be remodeling the kitchen of the director of the California State Dept of Health. We just happened to be talking about the subject a few days ago, because he has been studying the evidence in depth. He said that strong fields seem to make no difference, but the epidemiological studies show incontrovertable evidence that low emf fields make a statistcal difference in health. I didn't get details, but it gave me more respect for watching out. seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 18 18:52:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA20891 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:52:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20395; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:37:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA19930 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.36]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19922 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4HQOa15811 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:43:38 -0400 (EDT) From: IAQKibbey Message-ID: <2cc34f20.35392c9c@aol.com> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:43:38 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF AND ELECTRICAL SPECIFICATIONS (WAS TWISTED) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3000 Re: Alex's comment about EMFs being of less concern since recent epidemiological studies: I have noticed that many of the explanatory documentaries broadcast or written in the media have been sponsored or financed by utility companies and/or related corporations. The reason I still practice prudent avoidance is that, like Seth Melchert, I have witnessed several individuals whose sensitivity to low levels of EMF radiation seriously affects their health, well-being, or capacity to function normally. I can only surmise if SOME individuals are that sensitive, they must be picking up SOMETHING and it can't be doing much good for me or the rest of us. Re: John Salmen's question about twisted conductors: I once helped set up a demonstration board of EMF-reducing wiring techniques for an environmental building inspection seminar. We ran a length of two-wire with ground Romex, an equal length of knob and tube parallel conductors, and an equal length of three-wire with ground Romex (which comes braided--only one of the colored wires and the neutral were connected). At one end of each circuit was an AC plug and at the other end was an incandescent light fixture. As each was plugged into power and measured for Electromagnetic field strength at a distance of about one inch from the conductors, the measurement on the knob and tube was the highest (I can't remember the reading, but it was several mG). The next highest was the two-wire Romex at about 3 mG + or -. The lowest was the three-wire Romex at well under 1 mG. Next we took apart the two-wire setup and placed one end of the cable in the chuck of an electric drill and the other end in a vise. Holding tension on the wire to prevent kinking, we twisted the cable to about one complete twist per 1-/12 inches. We re-stripped the ends and connected the circuit back to the power and the light bulb. The EMF reading dropped to well below 1 mG, similar to the braided three-wire cable. Just like Popular Science! (The figures above are from rough memory, but are proportionate to the actual readings in the field). Similar lessons were learned from three-way switching circuits wired with twisted conductors vs. flat two-wire Romex cable. The greatest reduction was accomplished by running a functioning neutral along with each hot or switched- hot conductor. Imbalanced circuits had high readings, balanced circuits dropped to below 1 mG. Thanks to Chris Neurath for his comments and Jim Hardwick for his info about bonded neutrals (which are both consistent with everything I have experienced). Finally, with respect to Seth Melchert's quote: snip... >...we happen to be remodeling the kitchen of the director of the >California State Dept of Health. We just happened to be talking about >the subject a few days ago, because he has been studying the evidence in >depth. He said that strong fields seem to make no difference, but the >epidemiological studies show incontrovertible evidence that low EMF >fields make a statistical difference in health. I didn't get details, but >it gave me more respect for watching out. I suggest anyone interested in these not-so-subtle effects from chronic exposures to low-level EMF radiation read the book, "Cross Currents: The Perils of Electropollution, The Promise of Electromedicine," by Robert O. Becker, M.D., publ. Jeremy P. Tarcher, Inc., LA, 1990. Further discussion of EMFs, Electrical Fields, Geopathic and Cosmic radiation fields and how they can affect human health can be found in the literature of Wolfgang Maes and others in Germany, involved with the Bau-biologie movement. More info on this from Helmut Ziehe at the International Institute for Bau- biologie and Ecology in Clearwater, FL. email: baubiologie@earthlink.net web: Inst. for Bau-biologie & Ecology < http://www.bau-biologieusa.com> ------------------------------------------ David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant Berkeley, CA IAQKibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 18 18:52:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA20892 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:52:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20393; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:36:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA19878 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19874 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:36:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip20.ivnet.net [206.101.73.180]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA31398; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:42:03 -0700 Message-ID: <35392BA0.13B0F7D7@ivnet.net> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:39:29 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frugally4u CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Building small - cheap - & beautiful! References: <27c6f614.353680d2@aol.com> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3001

...then built a log cabin..worked great...you
could insulate...maybe getplans for a log cabin and improvise a little....just
an intial thought... :) >>

We're in Upstate NY. Cold & lots of snow in the winter ;)

Pearl

  I would definitely try to steer clear of the log cabin idea. These were appropriate when trees were considered to be obstacles and the more of them you could get out of your way the better. The rule of thumb here in Oregon (which doesn't get as cold as upstate NY) was that as many trees as it took to build your cabin, thats how many you needed to heat it every year. That's because wood has an R-value of about 1.2 per inch, and the determining thickness is the flat spot where the two logs join. This is usually about two to three inches. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 18 21:04:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA22158 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:04:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23996; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:53:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:48:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA23395 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA23384 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id UjZ00429; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:54:38 EDT To: Frugally4u@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: raised beds and building cheap Message-ID: <19980418.195431.4719.2.strawboss94@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3,5 From: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila x xxx) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:54:38 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3002 First of all, you usually plant in straw not hay (unless the hay is old and free) and it does work well. The milk jug is something we do and allows one to mix liquid fertilizer and slow feed to a specific plant. By putting the lid on very loosly you can control the flow. Re: cheap house, we built a 24x30 sb for $15,000 including well and septic. Mostly do it yourself. A good time was had by all four of us. . _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 19 10:42:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA18211 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:42:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12196; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:32:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:25:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11851 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stan.lcc.net (secure.lcc.net [207.70.172.248]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11847 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lcc.net (hunt-pri3-a36.lcc.net [207.70.180.132]) by stan.lcc.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id JAA06892 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 09:35:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <353A0CF0.E1D3B97@lcc.net> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 09:40:48 -0500 From: Kim Travis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GBlist Subject: GBlist: building small Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3003 Hi Y'all, I too wanted to build my dream house to be green friendly, but needed a shelter immediately. The choice I made 5 years ago now needs to be torn down and to salvage my wood for other uses. What I would recomend is: 1. Build a SB emergency shelter. Pallet floors with plywood and a metal roof. Minimum building while you check what is going in the garbage in your area. Locally available supplies are handy. 2. Spend some time really thinking about what you need and want. Draw you plans and mentally live in it for a while. The biggest regret I have heard from everyone I know who built thier own house was that they were in too much of a rush. 3. Try to design in modular style. Build a chunk of the house at a time so your materials do not get destroyed while waiting for your life to settle down. 4. Do your research. In books, on the net, and talk to people who have built thier own place, even if it is not a green building. Ask them what they really like and dislike. Read the how not to, books. 5. Have fun!!! Hope this helps Kim Travis The Rose Colored Forest Bedias, Texas ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 19 11:03:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA19550 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:03:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12770; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:53:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:47:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12472 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:47:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stan.lcc.net (secure.lcc.net [207.70.172.248]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12468 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lcc.net (hunt-pri3-a36.lcc.net [207.70.180.132]) by stan.lcc.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id JAA15222 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 09:57:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <353A1214.C4533557@lcc.net> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:02:44 -0500 From: Kim Travis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GBlist Subject: GBlist: Paper again Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3004 Hi again, I appreciate the replies that I have received about paper bales. However there seems to be some confusion about what I am talking about. The feed bags that I want to bale and use are heavy brown paper, at least 3 layers thick. the bags are 2' x 3' approximately in size. There is no shine or plastic on them. I do not understand why the local recycle programs will not accept them, but they will not. Most of these bags are burnt to dispose of them. The bales would be about 100 bags, compressed and tied to make a bale similar in size to a small SB. I have thought of painting the bales to protect them from water damage and I plan on raising them off the ground with old tin cans, bottles or whatever other garbage will work. If the bales will stand up reasonably well, I plan on building a fence with them. In this case I would cover them with adobe plaster. I need a fire barrier fence and SB is real expensive since the bales have to be trucked in. My neighbors don't understand what a fire ban is... I have seen paper bales dump in landfills, but I have been unable to find any information on how long they take to decompose. I do know that baled paper takes longer than loose paper. Any hints on where to find information would be appreciated. Thankyou Kim Travis The Rose Colored Forest Bedias, Texas ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 19 12:43:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20795 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:43:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16246; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:28:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15929 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15925 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:28:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Beta6/8.9.0.Beta6) with SMTP id JAA09009 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 09:35:28 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 19 Apr 1998 09:32:48 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: THOMAS REGISTER To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA15926 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3005 I imagine many at this site will be interested, as I was, to learn that Thomas Register (of American manufacturers) is online. http://www3.thomasregister.com/index.cgi?balancing Have any of you found any good sites discussing electric deregulation in CA? (Citizen alliances, green companies, etc.) All I can find suggests that things are still in a shake-out phase. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 19 16:21:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA28904 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24813; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:05:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24186 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24182 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:04:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA03353 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:12:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2cc34f20.35392c9c@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:51:04 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF et al Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3006 980419 1545est Could not that story about sensitivity to emf from a battery powered drill be more about either the sound of the tool or about ozone generated by the motor? Seems like a stretch to attribute such sensitivity to such a minor emf. I could tell you some "food allergy" stories from our experience here at the restaurant that show beyond a reasonable doubt that some "allergies" are strictly psychosomatic in origin. Of course, such problems are still problems to the individual involved, but it is unfair and a distortion of good science not to lay the blame at the proper doorstep. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 19 16:21:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA28905 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24811; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:05:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24220 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (root@relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24199 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA03369 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:12:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:02:29 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: Water Wells vs El Nino Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3007 980419 1551est We are going somewhat crazy from extra mudlike sediment in our well crashing our 2.5 cu ft water line filter. Our well technician (and, fortunately, neighbor) is of the opinion that due to the TREMENDOUS additional rain we are having this spring (and winter), even our deep drilled well (120 ft) is experiencing a runoff effect. We are having to clear the 20 micron filter much more frequently than Rick expected. The small 10 micron afterfilter is a pain, sometimes needing hourly flushing due to material getting past the main one. Is anyone out there in an area that is having much more rain than normal, with a similar well, having any such difficulties? Runoff normally does not affect such wells due to their depth. Thanks for allowing me a little leeway on subject matter here, but water quality is a green issue in my opinion, and in yours I hope! jh ps-we are in central Virginia, and our rainfall is about triple or more the average, this yr. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 19 18:36:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04782 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:36:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00294; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:25:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:20:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29824 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:19:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tubby.pacificcoast.net (uucp@tubby.pacificcoast.net [205.206.160.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29817 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:19:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tubby.pacificcoast.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id PAA24554; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804192223.PAA24554@tubby.pacificcoast.net> Received: from sd70-156.pacificcoast.net(139.142.70.156), claiming to be "user" via SMTP by tubby.pacificcoast.net, id smtpd024537; Sun Apr 19 15:22:58 1998 Reply-To: From: "John MacRae" To: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF et al Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:36:50 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3008 John MacRae, President, :johnm@pacificcoast.net John MacRae & Associates Inc. 100--1144 Fort St., Victoria,BC, Canada, V8V 3K8 Tel:[250]380-3911, Fax:[250]380-1123 ---------- > From: Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA > To: Green building list > Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF et al > Date: Sunday, April 19, 1998 12:51 PM > > 980419 1545est > > Could not that story about sensitivity to emf from a battery powered drill > be more about either the sound of the tool or about ozone generated by the > motor? Seems like a stretch to attribute such sensitivity to such a minor > emf. > > I could tell you some "food allergy" stories from our experience here at > the restaurant that show beyond a reasonable doubt that some "allergies" > are strictly psychosomatic in origin. Of course, such problems are still > problems to the individual involved, but it is unfair and a distortion of > good science not to lay the blame at the proper doorstep. > > jh > > > Jim, your comments regarding the sensitivity to emf from a battery powered drill may be somewhat accurate given that the story was "anecdotal", and therefore the reported sensitivity was not scientifically proven. However, your suggestion that the sensitivity could also have been due to the "noise" or "ozone" generated by the tool is equally(if not more of) a "stretch". Furthermore, your comments that your experience at "the restaurant" has proven "beyond a reasonable doubt that some allergies are strictly psychosomatic in origin" are quite outrageous, apparently unscientific, and display a fundamental (and disturbing) misunderstanding of the complexities involved in environmental health issues. There are far too many people who are too willing to dismiss complaints of adverse health effects by labeling them as "psychosomatic" and thereby avoiding the responsibility of practicing the hard and difficult work of "good science" that is necessary to help us understand the varied and numerous mechanisms that result in adverse health effects. There may indeed be a psychological component involved, but to attribute this as a single cause of an illness or adverse health effect is the height of irresponsibility. Regards, John MacRae. ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 19 19:25:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA05186 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 19:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01978; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 19:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 19 Apr 1998 19:09:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01535 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 19:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f86.hotmail.com [207.82.250.192]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01527 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 19:09:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 6199 invoked by uid 0); 19 Apr 1998 23:16:12 -0000 Message-ID: <19980419231612.6198.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 207.126.70.141 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:16:11 PDT X-Originating-IP: [207.126.70.141] From: "Paul Forrester" To: hardwick@ordinary.com, johnm@pacificcoast.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF et al Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:16:11 PDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3009 >From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 19 15:29:05 1998 >Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) > by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00007; > Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:21:32 -0400 (EDT) >Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:20:00 -0400 >Received: (from majordom@localhost) > by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29824 > for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:19:49 -0400 (EDT) >Received: from tubby.pacificcoast.net (uucp@tubby.pacificcoast.net [205.206.160.2]) > by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29817 > for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:19:46 -0400 (EDT) >Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tubby.pacificcoast.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id PAA24554; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:23:06 -0700 (PDT) >Message-Id: <199804192223.PAA24554@tubby.pacificcoast.net> >Received: from sd70-156.pacificcoast.net(139.142.70.156), claiming to be "user" > via SMTP by tubby.pacificcoast.net, id smtpd024537; Sun Apr 19 15:22:58 1998 >Reply-To: >From: "John MacRae" >To: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" >Cc: >Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF et al >Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:36:50 -0700 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Priority: 3 >X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org >Precedence: bulk > >John MacRae, President, :johnm@pacificcoast.net >John MacRae & Associates Inc. >100--1144 Fort St., Victoria,BC, Canada, V8V 3K8 >Tel:[250]380-3911, Fax:[250]380-1123 > >---------- >> From: Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA >> To: Green building list >> Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF et al >> Date: Sunday, April 19, 1998 12:51 PM >> >> 980419 1545est >> >> Could not that story about sensitivity to emf from a battery powered >drill >> be more about either the sound of the tool or about ozone generated by >the >> motor? Seems like a stretch to attribute such sensitivity to such a >minor >> emf. >> >> I could tell you some "food allergy" stories from our experience here at >> the restaurant that show beyond a reasonable doubt that some "allergies" >> are strictly psychosomatic in origin. Of course, such problems are still >> problems to the individual involved, but it is unfair and a distortion of >> good science not to lay the blame at the proper doorstep. >> >> jh >> >> >> > > Jim, your comments regarding the sensitivity to emf from a battery powered >drill may be somewhat accurate given that the story was "anecdotal", and >therefore the reported sensitivity was not scientifically proven. However, >your suggestion that the sensitivity could also have been due to the >"noise" or "ozone" generated by the tool is equally(if not more of) a >"stretch". Furthermore, your comments that your experience at "the >restaurant" has proven "beyond a reasonable doubt that some allergies are >strictly psychosomatic in origin" are quite outrageous, apparently >unscientific, and display a fundamental (and disturbing) misunderstanding >of the complexities involved in environmental health issues. There are far >too many people who are too willing to dismiss complaints of adverse health >effects by labeling them as "psychosomatic" and thereby avoiding the >responsibility of practicing the hard and difficult work of "good science" >that is necessary to help us understand the varied and numerous mechanisms >that result in adverse health effects. There may indeed be a psychological >component involved, but to attribute this as a single cause of an illness >or adverse health effect is the height of irresponsibility. > >Regards, John MacRae. > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >> Environmental Building News and Oikos >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > what is all the worry about emf how many days is this going to continue? if it bothers you shield it if not get on something constructive > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 19 22:02:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA06571 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08446; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:51:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:46:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07852 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:45:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07842 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:45:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.5] (blf5.acadia.net [205.217.217.5]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA20998 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:53:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:53:35 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: RE: GBlist: President's Million Solar Roofs Initiative Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3010 The Energy Center in Arhus, Denmark, calculated that about 200,000 Danish buildings were suited to solar hot water installations. But only about 200 to 300 systems a year were being installed. What to do? Rather than focus on consumers, the Energy Center started an education campaign aimed at plumbers. They organized tours of a solar water heater factory for plumbers, sponsored workshops on benefits of solar dhw and how to install systems, and offerred a small stipend to plumbers when they installed their first 2 or 3 systems, to help them over the learning curve. As a result, the plumbers have become enthusiastic about solar, and between 1200 to 2000 systems a year are being installed. (All information from conversations I had with staff at the Arhus Energy Center in the fall of 1996.) Seems to me there are lessons here for the One Million Solar Roof Initiative. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 19 22:05:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07693 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:05:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08739; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:49:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08185 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tubby.pacificcoast.net (uucp@tubby.pacificcoast.net [205.206.160.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08175 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:49:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tubby.pacificcoast.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) id SAA20249 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804200153.SAA20249@tubby.pacificcoast.net> Received: from sdial68.pacificcoast.net(204.209.208.68), claiming to be "user" via SMTP by tubby.pacificcoast.net, id smtpd020228; Sun Apr 19 18:53:02 1998 Reply-To: From: "John MacRae" To: Subject: GBlist: EMF et al Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 19:06:56 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3011 John MacRae, President, :johnm@pacificcoast.net John MacRae & Associates Inc. 100--1144 Fort St., Victoria,BC, Canada, V8V 3K8 Tel:[250]380-3911, Fax:[250]380-1123 Paul Forrester, there are many people who are very concerned regarding emf's. there are also many people who deny that emf's are a problem or even a potential problem. I have found the discussions regarding this subject to be intelligent and informative, and since the issue continues to be debated in the world at large I will welcome ongoing discussion of the issue. If you are bored with the subject, as it seems that you are, you are not obliged to waste your time reading the postings. There is a very interesting device on your keyboard called a "delete key", and it is recommended that you make use of it. Regards, John MacRae. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 19 22:28:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA08020 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09861; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:17:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:12:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA09482 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:12:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA09478 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:12:11 -0400 (EDT) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 19092 invoked by uid 0); 20 Apr 1998 02:20:36 -0000 Received: from ppp-9.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.202?) (198.175.11.202) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 20 Apr 1998 02:20:36 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:25:45 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: EMF AND ELECTRICAL SPECIFICATIONS (WAS TWISTED) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3012 I'm going to chime in again and 2nd what David Seth Melchert and David Kibbey have posted in response to Alex Wilson saying "there has been a reduction in concern about electromagnetic fields, based on several extensive epidemiological studies". Perhaps some more details on these studies including references would be in order to substantiate this generalization. And, this is definitely one of those fields with enormous vested interests who fund many of the studies, so it would be worthwhile knowing who sponsored each study. For those wanting to practice prudent avoidance I'll throw in a few more observations of actual measurements of EMF's. Builders who use power tools all day might consitute a good epidemiological study population for those exposed to high level fields. I whipped out my Tri-metric gauss meter and my Makita 7.2 VDC cordless drill to do some quick tests in reaction to Seth Melchert's posting that "even the weak field sent out by 9.6v DC across a house was enough to upset" a sensitive client. Cordless tools in fact generate almost as high fields as regular 115 VAC tools. At one foot away, my cordless measured 100 milligauss, whereas the 115 VAC drill measured about 150 mG. Both measurements are very, very high. About 5 feet away from the drills, the measurements drop to about 1 mG for the cordless and 1.5 mG for the corded. The lowest my meter can measure is about 1/10 mG so I didn't try this experiment with the drill 40 feet away from the meter. If Seth Melchert's client could really sense the drill's EMF from that far away, then she must be exquisitely sensitive. Almost any building with a few fluorescent lights on has fields in many places that are 1/10 mG or more. Before I purchased my gauss meter I had also assumed that low voltage and DC appliances should produce minimal EMF's. However, all electric motors are basically AC devices internally, and their copper windings are designed to make electromagnetic fields, otherwise there wouldn't be any electro-motive force to make the thing spin around. As other posters have said, improper wiring can cause large fields. However, for properly wired buildings, my measurements suggest most people get much more exposure from appliances and electronic devices. Similarly, unless someone lives or works very close to high voltage power transmission lines or the building's step-down transformer, the fields from these also will be much lower than from appliances and electronic devices. Of course, if the California Director of Public Health is right, the strongest fields might not be the fields that cause the most harm. It sounds counter-intuitive, but just keep in mind how amazingly complicated are the inner cellular and molecular (and electrical) workings of a living human. There's a lot we still don't understand. >From one who admits to occasionally practicing prudent avoidance, Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 19 23:10:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA09554 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 23:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA11607; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:59:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:53:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA11272 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:53:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA11265 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA25064; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 19:59:25 -0700 Message-ID: <353AB994.CF6E52CA@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 19:57:24 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cneurath@northnet.org CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF AND ELECTRICAL SPECIFICATIONS (WAS TWISTED) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3013 I would like to add to the seconding. I am by nature skeptical and by virtue of this profession have grown more so, well I have probably not grown more skeptical just older and very cautious when it comes to dispensing information and advice. I have waded through so much information on such a variety of materials that I no longer feel in control of whatever knowledge I once presumed to have and grow increasingly dependent upon not just the information but a concensus of interest around the information. This list is very good for representing a valid concensus of concern around materials or processes. I hope it continues. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. cneurath@northnet.org wrote: > I'm going to chime in again and 2nd what David Seth Melchert and David > Kibbey have posted in response to Alex Wilson saying "there has been a > reduction in concern about electromagnetic fields, based on several > extensive epidemiological studies". Perhaps some more details on these > studies including references would be in order to substantiate this > generalization. And, this is definitely one of those fields with enormous > vested interests who fund many of the studies, so it would be worthwhile > knowing who sponsored each study. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 20 06:30:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA14137 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 06:30:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA21667; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 06:19:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 06:14:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA21457 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 06:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA21453 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 06:14:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 11594 invoked from network); 20 Apr 1998 10:21:27 -0000 Received: from af157.du.pipex.com (HELO ) (193.130.245.157) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 20 Apr 1998 10:21:27 -0000 Message-ID: <353B1D69.4CAC@dial.pipex.com> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:03:21 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Reply-To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: President's Million Solar Roofs Initiative References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3014 David M. Foley wrote: > The Energy Center in Arhus, Denmark, calculated that about 200,000 > Danish buildings were suited to solar hot water installations. But > only about 200 to 300 systems a year were being installed. What to do? > Rather than focus on consumers, the Energy Center started an education > campaign aimed at plumbers. They organized tours of a solar water > heater factory for plumbers, sponsored workshops on benefits of solar > dhw and how to install systems, and offerred a small stipend to > plumbers when they installed their first 2 or 3 systems, to help them > over the learning curve. > As a result, the plumbers have become enthusiastic about solar, > and between 1200 to 2000 systems a year are being installed. (All > information from conversations I had with staff at the Arhus Energy > Center in the fall of 1996.) Hi David. I'm left wondering a couple of things about this story. Here in Britain (in a similar climate to Denmark, and with fuel prices that aren't too dissimilar), realistic payback periods for commercial solar thermal installations will often exceed the predicted life of the panels - even for buildings whose location, orientation, etc makes them highly technically suitable. While some cost reduction could be achieved through larger production runs, much of the cost is in the fitting, and in particular the adjustments needed to the existing central heating / hot water system in the house. [obviously this isn't so much of a problem with new-build] So how did your friends in Aarhus overcome that problem? And a worry (based on British experience): have people ended up paying out money (on the recommendation of a plumber) for solar water heating when they would perhaps have made a wiser investment had they used it for energy efficiency (i.e. consumption reduction) measures instead? I don't want to put a damper on this - it would be great if we could get this (really rather simple) technology to work financially in NW Europe. But my experience of the last 15 years hasn't been good... By the way, what's your brother's view on the latest findings on the antarctic ice shelf melting? all the best, Mark Bigland-Pritchard hyphen@dial.pipex.com Bristol, England ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 20 09:57:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16435 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:57:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28072; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:47:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:41:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27473 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:41:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orion.bdc.bethel.me.us (orion.bdc.bethel.me.us [198.202.151.245]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27469 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bdc.bethel.me.us (Async4.ts-bethel2.caps.maine.edu [130.111.20.42]) by orion.bdc.bethel.me.us (8.8.5/SCO5) with ESMTP id JAA25292 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:48:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353B5247.FE0562C7@bdc.bethel.me.us> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:48:55 -0400 From: Michael Poirier X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: water heating Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3015 Just went thru the archives of gas hot water heaters and didn't find what I was looking for so: 1) can these run on both LP/propane and natural gas 2) what do people think of the instantaneous gas water heaters (? if the name of one is Palamo) vs the tank ones which constantly use gas to keep your water hot. Can these be direct vented or do they require a chimney ??? 3) How difficult would it be to incorporate heating hot water off a woodstove jacket with an on demand/instantaneous gas heater? Plan to heat my house with : mostly wood, a lot of passive sun and for colder or away times in the winter a Rinnai (?sp) direct vent gas heater, so figure that some type of gas/wood water heating sytem makes most sense. Comments? Ideas? thanks Michael Poirier Bethel Maine ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 20 11:12:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17976 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:12:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02792; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:01:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:56:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02308 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02300 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:56:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ANovelli@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4NPCa12992 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:59:57 -0400 (EDT) From: ANovelli Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:59:57 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF et al Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3016 Jim Hardwick wrote: >>Could not that story about sensitivity to emf from a battery powered drill be more about either the sound of the tool or about ozone generated by the motor? Seems like a stretch to attribute such sensitivity to such a minor emf. I could tell you some "food allergy" stories from our experience here at the restaurant that show beyond a reasonable doubt that some "allergies" are strictly psychosomatic in origin. Of course, such problems are still problems to the individual involved, but it is unfair and a distortion of good science not to lay the blame at the proper doorstep.<< In some ways I agree, though it seems to me the problem with emf and other (what I would call) "distant" effects is that there is not much, if any good science to base your arguments. Psychosomatic illness (my definition) demonstrates the power of our subconscious to manifest real world symptoms from imagined causes. But if we listen to established science, which often, is the product of filtration/distortion by special interests, we end up be blamed for almost everything we come down with. With widespread acceptance of products like OSB, and permissable levels of contaminants in drinking water, it's hard for me to imagine *anyone* not suffering from some kind of "environmental" illness, even if it just manifests as decreased energy and immune response. The many people who suffer from multiple chemical sensitivities and sick building syndrome don't necessarily represent a small faction of overly imaginative individuals. The first person I met with MCS couldn't stand within 6 feet of me due to the laundry detergent I used, which he could still smell the next time he saw me after I switched to his brand (Granny's). An argument could be made for either side, though what I experienced was an increased senstivity on my part too... where I now find it offensive to stand in line at the supermarket behind some people, and can't even walk down some aisles as the scents are sickening. I think that we can protect ourselves to a certain extent, but we lose valuable information by desensitizing to what industry has gradually made us accustomed to. Not all feedback loops are acute enough to sense, especially when accompanied by a glitzy ad campaign. Sorry this is so long, but I can't help see the image of the frog on the stove being brought up to gradually higher heats... a metaphor very apt for the background environmental exposure we all face. I caution at judging the first frog out of the pan as over-reactive until we find a science capable of measuring distant, subtle effects, and those we've become so deadened to that we don't even sense anymore. There's volumes to write on this topic, and I appreciate the contributors to this thread. Sick buildings are the result of sick design. Tony Novelli Tucson, AZ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 20 11:49:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18823 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05922; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:38:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:33:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05450 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:33:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from essential.essential.org (essential.org [198.4.52.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05444 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:33:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from essential.org (meghan.essential.org [198.4.52.7]) by essential.essential.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02581 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:32:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353B6BA3.CEEFF7A8@essential.org> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:37:08 -0400 From: Meghan Clancy-Hepburn Reply-To: mch@essential.org Organization: wood reduction clearinghouse X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding list Subject: GBlist: SIPs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3017 Dear members of the Greenbuilding List, I am forwarding this message from Wim De Groote with the hopes that somebody or many somebodies out there in cyberland will respond. There are a lot of interesting questions here about the amount and quality of wood used in SIPs as well as the price of SIPs. Please respond to the general list, or to Wim De Groote at wimdg@agoranet.be. Thank you! Wim De Groote wrote: Dear Ms Clancy-Hepburn, With a team, we are now preparing a 2-day basic course on Sustainable Building which will be supported and promoted by many environmental organisations in Belgium... As you may know, conventional homebuilding in this part of Europe (Belgium, Holland, Germany, UK, ...) is brick walls and wood-framed sloping roofs. Concerning the walls, there is a clear increase of wood-framing (some or a lot from the Great Bear Forest or other primary forests in Canada ?). Roofs however were, are and will be in most of the cases be made out of wooden frames (covered with clay tiles). My question is, do you have a general (or detailed) advice on the use of Structural Insultated Panels (SIPs) as concerns the use of wood ? There is an article about SIPs in the latest of Home Energy which seems to suggest that the wood balance is better with SIPs - but it's not too clear on that. SIPs are made of lower quality wood (OSB, MDF, ...) than conventional wooden framing. Is that always better ? What I can tell you from my limited information, gathered from the architects with who I design buildings, SIPs are CHEAPER and than conventional wooden framing for roofs (unlike the US, according the Home Energy's article). Thank you in advance for your advice, Wim De Groote St. Denijslaan 64 B-9000 Gent Belgium (the course on Sustainable Building will be organised throughout the country by the post-education center on appropiate technology "DIALOOG" from Leuven, Belgium) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Meghan Clancy-Hepburn Resource Conservation Alliance (formerly known as Wood Reduction Clearinghouse) mch@essential.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 20 15:42:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA23249 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:42:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22501; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:32:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:26:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21218 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from heaven.sewanee.edu (heaven.sewanee.edu [152.97.29.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21189 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:25:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [152.97.110.159] by heaven.sewanee.edu with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA040170784; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:33:04 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:33:04 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: rgottfri@sewanee.edu (Robert Gottfried) Subject: GBlist: siding Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3018 We are building a post and beam home with stress-skin panels (4'x8'). We had hoped to use fiber cement siding for its durability and low maintenance characteristics. However, one of these companies told us that generally their siding has been used on stud walls. Because this product seems rather untested in this application, we're wondering whether there are there any tested, durable, low-maintenance products that could do better than fiber cement when attempting to side OSB panels? Robin Gottfried Department of Economics The University of the South 735 University Avenue Sewanee, Tennessee 37383-1000 USA Tel: (931)598-1243 Fax: (931)598-1145 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 20 15:42:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA23253 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:42:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22486; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:26:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21194 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:25:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from heaven.sewanee.edu (heaven.sewanee.edu [152.97.29.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21176 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:25:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [152.97.110.159] by heaven.sewanee.edu with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA040020781; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:33:01 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:33:01 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: rgottfri@sewanee.edu (Robert Gottfried) Subject: GBlist: on-line water heaters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3019 Can anyone tell me whether or not on-line water heaters (LPG and electric) are really more energy-efficient than regular tank heaters? Someone told me that, because they have to heat the water so fast, they actually end up using a lot more energy than tank heaters (by wasting energy, I assume). If on-lines are better, do you have any particular recommendations (lpg vs electric, brands)? Robin Gottfried Department of Economics The University of the South 735 University Avenue Sewanee, Tennessee 37383-1000 USA Tel: (931)598-1243 Fax: (931)598-1145 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 20 15:42:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA23259 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:42:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22517; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:26:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21202 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from heaven.sewanee.edu (heaven.sewanee.edu [152.97.29.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21185 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:25:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [152.97.110.159] by heaven.sewanee.edu with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA040130783; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:33:03 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:33:03 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: rgottfri@sewanee.edu (Robert Gottfried) Subject: GBlist: durable material Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3020 We are building a passive solar home, and are looking for a low maintenance, durable material to build a louvered structure to shade our south-facing windows in the summer. Any ideas? It would have to hold up under UV light, as well as rain and heat. Robin Gottfried Department of Economics The University of the South 735 University Avenue Sewanee, Tennessee 37383-1000 USA Tel: (931)598-1243 Fax: (931)598-1145 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 20 15:42:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA23245 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22482; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:26:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21201 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:25:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from heaven.sewanee.edu (heaven.sewanee.edu [152.97.29.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21181 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:25:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [152.97.110.159] by heaven.sewanee.edu with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA040080782; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:33:02 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:33:02 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: rgottfri@sewanee.edu (Robert Gottfried) Subject: GBlist: rainwater catchment/roofing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3021 We are seriously considering using a rainwater catchment (cistern) system to supply our new house with water for drinking. Because good metal roofs are so much more expensive, we are wondering about the suitability of fiberglass or asphalt shingles when the water running off the roof is used for drinking water. We would think that rain could leach some toxics from asphalt shingles. Does anyone know about this, and whether or not fiberglass shingles would have the same problem? Would a carbon (or some other) filter be sufficient in either case to remove any toxics from the shingles? Robin Gottfried Department of Economics The University of the South 735 University Avenue Sewanee, Tennessee 37383-1000 USA Tel: (931)598-1243 Fax: (931)598-1145 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 20 16:18:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA23823 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24751; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:02:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24224 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:02:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24217 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA17402; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:09:37 -0700 Message-Id: <353BABC4.6DC0@arb.ca.gov> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:10:44 -0700 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Cc: "CULLIVER, MITCH" , "ROE, CHUCK" , "MULLEN, JIM" Subject: GBlist: GREEN TECHNOLOGY Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3022 In case you missed it, you can find Dave Barry's recent column on low flow toilets at: http://www.mercurycenter.com/columnists/barry/docs/db041298.htm Enjoy, -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 20 16:20:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA23847 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24987; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:04:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24364 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:04:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24360 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:04:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.111] (pm0a7.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.107]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24415; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:11:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:11:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: rgottfri@sewanee.edu (Robert Gottfried) From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: on-line water heaters Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3023 Instantaneous or "demand" water heaters do not have storage tanks, so the "stand-by" losses experienced with conventional water heaters are eliminated. However, most gas-fired demand water heaters (natural gas or propane) have continuous pilot lights that burn 300 to 350 Btus per hour all the time--up to 3 million Btus per year. A few _electronic-ignition_ demand water heaters now available. The most efficient is made by the Korean company, Targa (http://www.targaenergy.com). It has a 96% combustion efficiency and 0.93 Energy Factor--though the EF does not include electricity for ignition and fan operation (180 watts when in use). Another exciting product is the AquaStar 125-EI battery-powered, electronic-ignition demand water heater being introduced this month or next by Controlled Energy Corp. in Vermont (http://www.cechot.com). The latter does not require AC power, using a D-cell battery. Both of these products are described in detail in the April issue of Environmental Building News, which is currently at the printer. Electric demand water heaters sized for typical homes have very high amperage draws and may necessitate higher-than-typical amperage input for a house. -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News http://www.ebuild.com At 2:33 PM -0500 4/20/98, Robert Gottfried wrote: >Can anyone tell me whether or not on-line water heaters (LPG and electric) >are really more energy-efficient than regular tank heaters? Someone told me >that, because they have to heat the water so fast, they actually end up >using a lot more energy than tank heaters (by wasting energy, I assume). If >on-lines are better, do you have any particular recommendations (lpg vs >electric, brands)? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 20 16:24:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA23980 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25394; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:14:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:09:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24901 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:09:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24894 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:09:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA17273; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:14:41 -0700 Message-ID: <353BAC34.E19F115F@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:12:36 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Gottfried CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: siding References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3024 Since you mentioned passive solar in another post you might want to look at solarwall http://www.solarwall.com/ as both a cladding and as a method of both solar heating and air supply for the exposure involved. Definitely meets some criteria. Might be similar or even more concerns for its application which I imagine concern strength of connection and movement. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Robert Gottfried wrote: > We are building a post and beam home with stress-skin panels (4'x8'). We > had hoped to use fiber cement siding for its durability and low maintenance > characteristics. However, one of these companies told us that generally > their siding has been used on stud walls. Because this product seems rather > untested in this application, we're wondering whether there are there any > tested, durable, low-maintenance products that could do better than fiber > cement when attempting to side OSB panels? > > Robin Gottfried > Department of Economics > The University of the South > 735 University Avenue > Sewanee, Tennessee 37383-1000 > USA > Tel: (931)598-1243 > Fax: (931)598-1145 > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 20 17:02:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA25759 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:02:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA27570; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:52:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:47:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA27152 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:47:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27147 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:46:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ip19.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.38]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA126 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:54:12 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980420170715.006cc568@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:07:15 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: on-line water heaters In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3025 At 04:11 PM 4/20/98 -0400, Alex Wilson wrote: >Instantaneous or "demand" water heaters do not have storage tanks, so the >"stand-by" losses experienced with conventional water heaters .. Alex: I have vague memories of European studies showing indoor air quality impacts of unvented in-line water heaters that would create concerns in this country... Even with a good blue flame, it's not too hard to generate an untrafine acidic aerosol and our old friends, the oxides of nitrogen. I'll check out the websites, but it's still worth asking here: are these units vented? This could be a good excuse to design extraction efficiency into the bath exhaust. My experience (all anecdotal) indicates that just taking the cfm rating of the fan against the volume of the room with woefully underestimate the clearance capabilities of the fan. ... Harry ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 20 17:44:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA26462 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:44:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00365; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:33:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:28:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA29831 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:28:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA29823 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:28:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa21.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.150]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA00619 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353BBE6E.323C@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:30:22 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: GREEN TECHNOLOGY References: <353BABC4.6DC0@arb.ca.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3026 Tom Phillips wrote: > > In case you missed it, you can find Dave Barry's recent column on low > flow toilets at: > > http://www.mercurycenter.com/columnists/barry/docs/db041298.htm > > > Enjoy, Thanks for the chuckle. Now who do we know that is a Contrator 2000? I want one of these beauties. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 20 18:21:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA26894 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:21:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02305; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:03:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA01996 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:02:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR02 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA01987 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from GFX-CH - 153.35.30.132 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:09:27 -0700 Message-ID: <002201bd6ca9$1f724fe0$841e2399@GFX-CH> From: "carmine vasile" To: , "Robert Gottfried" Cc: "Tim Bernadowski" , "Warren Hodgdon" , "Jim Vaughn" Subject: Re: GBlist: on-line water heaters Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:10:22 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3027 Yes. See http://oikos.com/gfx/tests.html >>===================================================== >>Dr. Carmine Vasile, CEO Voice: 516-758-6271 >>WaterFilm Energy Inc. Fax: 516-758-0438 >>P.O. Box 48 Email: gfx-ch@msn.com >>Oakdale, NY 11769 Web: http://oikos.com/gfx/ >>===================================================== -----Original Message----- From: Robert Gottfried To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Monday, April 20, 1998 3:35 PM Subject: GBlist: on-line water heaters >Can anyone tell me whether or not on-line water heaters (LPG and electric) >are really more energy-efficient than regular tank heaters? Someone told me >that, because they have to heat the water so fast, they actually end up >using a lot more energy than tank heaters (by wasting energy, I assume). If >on-lines are better, do you have any particular recommendations (lpg vs >electric, brands)? > > >Robin Gottfried >Department of Economics >The University of the South >735 University Avenue >Sewanee, Tennessee 37383-1000 >USA >Tel: (931)598-1243 >Fax: (931)598-1145 > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 20 19:30:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA27854 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:30:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA06432; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:10:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA06030 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06026 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:10:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([194.168.101.35]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA14842; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:17:26 +0100 Message-ID: <353BC47E.7B773D8E@which.net> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:56:15 +0100 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Gottfried CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: on-line water heaters X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3028 I'd expect LPG to be more green than electricity from a CO2 viewpoint, assuming the electricity is mostly from a fossil fuel power plant. A condensing type should be the most efficient. The brochures should give efiiciency figures. Malcolm Scott Robert Gottfried wrote: > Can anyone tell me whether or not on-line water heaters (LPG and > electric) > are really more energy-efficient than regular tank heaters? Someone > told me > that, because they have to heat the water so fast, they actually end > up > using a lot more energy than tank heaters (by wasting energy, I > assume). If > on-lines are better, do you have any particular recommendations (lpg > vs > electric, brands)? > > Robin Gottfried > Department of Economics > The University of the South > 735 University Avenue > Sewanee, Tennessee 37383-1000 > USA > Tel: (931)598-1243 > Fax: (931)598-1145 > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 20 19:56:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA28093 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA07892; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:46:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:41:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA07596 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:40:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07590 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:40:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id TvX00433; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:46:40 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:17:04 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF AND ELECTRICAL SPECIFICATIONS (WAS TWISTED) Message-ID: <19980420.164540.3438.12.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,3,5-6,9-12 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Samantha L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3029 Just an addition on the same note- my mother was diagnosed with MS a few years ago- and she recalls during the exacorbation being able to hear the electricity in the walls- practically driving her crazy. i also understand that autistic children have this particular sensitivity, though no evidence to back up that claim. also- for those who arent already aware there is another book out on this particular area of human research: The Body Electric, Robert O. Becker, 1985 Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 00:05:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA04484 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:05:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21449; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:55:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:49:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21052 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21047 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:49:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA26581; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:55:22 -0700 Message-ID: <353C1829.5255979A@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:53:13 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Gottfried CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: rainwater catchment/roofing References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3030 A metal roof is generally less expensive over its life than an asphalt shingle (fiberglass shingles are asphalt shingles with a fiberglass base - standard asphalt have a felt base) Asphalt will contaminate roof water both in contact and by erosion. Filtration is probably a necessity regardless of what the roofing material is. A good clue to the potential contaminants you will be filtering for is to look at what are sources of local air contamination. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Robert Gottfried wrote: > We are seriously considering using a rainwater catchment (cistern) system > to supply our new house with water for drinking. Because good metal roofs > are so much more expensive, we are wondering about the suitability of > fiberglass or asphalt shingles when the water running off the roof is used > for drinking water. We would think that rain could leach some toxics from > asphalt shingles. Does anyone know about this, and whether or not > fiberglass shingles would have the same problem? Would a carbon (or some > other) filter be sufficient in either case to remove any toxics from the > shingles? > > Robin Gottfried > Department of Economics > The University of the South > 735 University Avenue > Sewanee, Tennessee 37383-1000 > USA > Tel: (931)598-1243 > Fax: (931)598-1145 > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 07:33:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA07234 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA03223; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:22:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:17:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA02942 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:17:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA02938 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:17:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.111] (pm1a8.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.138]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA29841; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:24:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:24:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980420170715.006cc568@paltech.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Harry Rector From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: on-line water heaters Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3031 I am not aware of any demand water heaters that are unvented--all gas-fired demand water heaters I'm familiar with are vented to the exterior. However, most demand water heaters, such as AquaStar's and (I believe) Paloma's rely on natural draft, so there may be risk of backdrafting, especially in situations where negative pressure exists in the house. The Targa I mentioned in previous post has a fan-assisted exhaust. -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News http://www.ebuild.com At 5:07 PM -0400 4/20/98, Harry Rector wrote: >I have vague memories of European studies showing indoor air quality >impacts of unvented in-line water heaters that would create concerns in >this country... Even with a good blue flame, it's not too hard to generate >an untrafine acidic aerosol and our old friends, the oxides of nitrogen. >I'll check out the websites, but it's still worth asking here: are these >units vented? This could be a good excuse to design extraction efficiency >into the bath exhaust. My experience (all anecdotal) indicates that just >taking the cfm rating of the fan against the volume of the room with >woefully underestimate the clearance capabilities of the fan. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 08:03:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA07644 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:03:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA04760; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:53:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:48:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA04465 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:48:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA04461 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA19546; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 05:54:49 -0600 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 05:54:48 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: PVC consensus (for windows?) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3032 What was the concensus on PVC, especially re: its possible ban in Toronto and Germany. If someone saved these messages on this topic, please summarize or send me the most pertinent ones. A client is interested in PVC windows. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 10:22:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11785 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:22:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11403; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:11:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:06:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10812 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR02 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10808 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:06:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from GFX-CH - 153.35.27.60 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:12:00 -0700 Message-ID: <001a01bd6d2f$971ea3a0$3c1b2399@GFX-CH> From: "carmine vasile" To: "Melody Lutz" Cc: , "Robert Gottfried" , "GB List" Subject: Fw: GBlist: on-line water heaters Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:12:53 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3033 Hello Melody: Why not provide details to the GBList about Kelteck's data for their Accutemp instant electric water heater; which compares the latter to 50 gallon gas & electric storage water-heaters? [http://www.keltech.thomasregister.com ] I'm sure many will be surprised, as was I, to learn of the U.S.DOE statistics cited in your catalog, which predict a net accumulated cost after 6 years of about: $3250, $2450, $1600, respectively, for electric storge @ 7-cents/kWh, gas storage @ 60-cents/Therm, instant electric [Acutemp] @ 7-cents/kWh; @ 64 gpd of [?135F?] hot water consumption. Best Regards Carmine >>===================================================== >>Dr. Carmine Vasile, CEO Voice: 516-758-6271 >>WaterFilm Energy Inc. Fax: 516-758-0438 >>P.O. Box 48 Email: gfx-ch@msn.com >>Oakdale, NY 11769 Web: http://oikos.com/gfx/ >>===================================================== -----Original Message----- From: malcolm.scott@which.net To: Robert Gottfried Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Monday, April 20, 1998 7:20 PM Subject: Re: GBlist: on-line water heaters >I'd expect LPG to be more green than electricity from a CO2 viewpoint, >assuming the electricity is mostly from a fossil fuel power plant. >A condensing type should be the most efficient. The brochures should >give efiiciency figures. >Malcolm Scott > > >Robert Gottfried wrote: > >> Can anyone tell me whether or not on-line water heaters (LPG and >> electric) >> are really more energy-efficient than regular tank heaters? Someone >> told me >> that, because they have to heat the water so fast, they actually end >> up >> using a lot more energy than tank heaters (by wasting energy, I >> assume). If >> on-lines are better, do you have any particular recommendations (lpg >> vs >> electric, brands)? >> >> Robin Gottfried >> Department of Economics >> The University of the South >> 735 University Avenue >> Sewanee, Tennessee 37383-1000 >> USA >> Tel: (931)598-1243 >> Fax: (931)598-1145 >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >> Environmental Building News and Oikos >> >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >> ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 12:33:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13914 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:33:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20057; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:22:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:17:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19364 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:16:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19352 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:16:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA24837 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:23:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va13-42.ix.netcom.com(207.223.178.170) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma024734; Tue Apr 21 11:22:47 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980421122129.0073cdc8@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:21:31 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: T Brennan, Help Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3034 Terry - I must have lost your update, or something else is amiss? --------- bounce message --------------- > -AOL Postmaster > ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >... while talking to air11.mail.aol.com.: >>>> RCPT To: ><<< 550 MAILBOX NOT FOUND >550 ... User unknown > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 12:35:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13967 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:35:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20234; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:24:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:19:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19738 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19734 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:19:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MDM00431; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:24:32 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:27:36 -0700 Subject: GBlist: EMF fields Message-ID: <19980421.122739.15310.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-6,12-18 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3035 Hi, One of the postings on EMF suggested that construction workers who work with power tools all day might be a source of study. I would also suggest another source as computer workers and those who work for power companies. Several years ago I was approached by a client who was not only chemically sensitive but was also EMF sensitive. Both conditions had developed late in life and he credited the conditions to the fact that he worked for the local power company, monitoring much of the high capacity equipment like transformers and the like. He was so sensitized he had to watch television through an energy shield. No, it's not a scientific study, just more anecdotal data. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 12:49:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14151 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:49:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21273; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:38:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:33:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20812 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:33:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20808 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sd20.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.245]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA24213 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353CCAC6.736A@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:35:18 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Envirotech Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3036 Today's wired News has an article on a new study just released by Pacific Northwest National Labs, a DOE lab, listing the "10 most important technological breakthroughs that will lead to a cleaner environment while providing major benefits to consumers over the next decade." The article is at: http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/11794.html The Wired News article also links to another article from there archives about the other side of tech and the environment: ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 13:03:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14380 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22281; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:53:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:47:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21878 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:47:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21874 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:47:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sd20.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.245]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA28090 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:55:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353CCE24.2AB@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:49:40 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Envirotech Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3037 Today's wired News has an article on a new report just released by Pacific Northwest National Labs, a DOE lab, listing the "10 most important technological breakthroughs that will lead to a cleaner environment while providing major benefits to consumers over the next decade." The article is at: http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/11794.html The Wired News article also links to another article from there archives about the ugly side of tech and the environment: http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/4804.html And for those who want to skip the articles and go right to the report: http://www.pnl.gov/news/1998/bnw98_13.htm The PNNL main page is at: http://www.pnl.gov/ This is sent without editorial comment on my part, as I'm more interested to see what dialogue this sort of thing stimulates. The first post of this was an accident, please disregard. Pay no attention to the man behind the screen. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 14:32:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16947 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27620; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:19:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:13:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27122 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:13:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27117 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:13:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([194.168.99.218]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA1639; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:20:47 +0100 Message-ID: <353C7A5B.DDAB6658@which.net> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:52:12 +0100 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Gottfried CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: durable material X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3038 They will need strength for wind resistance too. Aluminium springs to mind. Naturally corrosion resistant, easily formed, common architectural material. Or what about heavily tinted glass? Malcolm Scott Robert Gottfried wrote: > We are building a passive solar home, and are looking for a low > maintenance, durable material to build a louvered structure to shade > our > south-facing windows in the summer. Any ideas? It would have to hold > up > under UV light, as well as rain and heat. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 15:28:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17749 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01095; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:11:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00415 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00410 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([194.168.101.225]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA7452; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:18:37 +0100 Message-ID: <353CED61.47999792@which.net> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:02:58 +0100 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Beverly A. Weiter" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF fields X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <19980421.122739.15310.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3039 What is an energy shield? Malcolm Scott Beverly A. Weiter wrote: He was so sensitized > he had to watch television through an energy shield. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 15:28:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17750 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01106; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:11:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00429 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00421 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([194.168.101.225]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA7442; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:18:32 +0100 Message-ID: <353CEA86.4824F989@which.net> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:50:47 +0100 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: carmine vasile CC: Melody Lutz , Robert Gottfried , GB List Subject: Re: Fw: GBlist: on-line water heaters X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <001a01bd6d2f$971ea3a0$3c1b2399@GFX-CH> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3040 Thanks Carmine. So now the only one missing is the gas instantaneous heater which using the proportions given by Carmine below of 1600*2450/3250 gives a 6 year cost of $1206 compared to $2450 for a stored water system. So a stored system has twice the cost of an instantaneous system. Malcolm Scott carmine vasile wrote: > Hello Melody: > Why not provide details to the GBList about Kelteck's data for > their > Accutemp instant electric water heater; which compares the latter to > 50 > gallon gas & electric storage water-heaters? > [http://www.keltech.thomasregister.com ] > I'm sure many will be surprised, as was I, to learn of the U.S.DOE > > statistics cited in your catalog, which predict a net accumulated cost > after > 6 years of about: > $3250, $2450, $1600, respectively, > for electric storge @ 7-cents/kWh, > gas storage @ 60-cents/Therm, > instant electric [Acutemp] @ 7-cents/kWh; > @ 64 gpd of [?135F?] hot water consumption. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 15:40:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17935 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:40:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02130; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:24:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01456 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:24:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01444; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:24:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA36538; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:30:53 -0600 Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:30:53 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: UNHEALTHY hydronic radiant floor heating? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3041 Ladies & Gentlemen: Does anyone have a recent e-mail address for any of the BauBiolgie people in North America or Europe with whom I can explore this question more. The consensus so far is that no-one knows what I (they) am (are) talking about. Why is this info so illusive/confidential, if it exists? Or are we all just ignorant or underpriviledged? Scientific data and empirical facts is what I am looking for, that supports or disproves these rumours. They seem to feel air floors are the answer! Is hydronic radiant floor heating a health threat? Jorg Ostrowski ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 06:45:44 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Strawbale Subject: Fact or Fiction? Radiant floor heating BANNED in Germany & France? Has anyone heard of the above? Apparently water-based radiant heat is creating health problems from running water. It supposedly has been banned because they are positive ion generators and can create adverse health conditions. ______________________________________________________________________________ This info (rumour?) was given at recent strawbale seminar somewhere. Local professionals (manufacturers & installers) in the field never heard about this. Have you? Is this true, or just wishful thinking by the competition or the inexperienced? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 16:53:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA19030 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:53:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA05696; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:41:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:21:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04568 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:21:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04563 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:21:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p16.ltec.net [206.158.213.26]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13089; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:13:26 -0500 Message-ID: <353D0C8E.619F8DA4@navix.net> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:16:00 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frugally4u CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Building small - cheap - & beautiful! References: <7642ab51.353676ff@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3042 Pearl, great sounding area! What a beaut for living at. When it comes to the best use of small spaces a certain book I have comes to mind: Tiny, Tiny Houses or How to Get Away From It All by Lester Walker published in 1987 by The Overlook Press, Lewis Hollow Road Woodstock, NY 12498. This book has 43 easy-to-build tiny house plans with small explanations concerning each. The contents include: Tiny Historic Houses; Tiny Houses That Move; Tiny Prefabricated Houses; Tiny Paper and Cloth Houses; Tiny Special-Use Houses; Tiny Roadside Houses; Tiny Houses as Art; and Tiny Houses for the Wilderness. If you can't find a copy to buy or look at from a library, then I'd be happy to copy it for you. It's about 220 pgs. long including all the references and such. There's some great ideas in it that might be of some use to you. Happy building, Sharon Eby-Martin gs11531@navix.net Frugally4u wrote: > I'd like to start a new thread on ideas for building small, but beautiful. > > My husband & I are buying a piece of property that is 60 acres. > > We have LOTS of mature timber - mostly pine & black cherry, water - pond, > river, bridge, stream -, and a road already in place. The former owner used > this land to camp on. He made his own well with a pipe just pushed in the > ground. His great uncle even had electric from the river out back! > > We've looked into many different building methods including; cordwood, stone, > cob, log, etc... > > We would like to hear different ideas on best use of small spaces, ( we're > planning on a 24 X 30 house to start with), and CHEAP building ideas. > > We'd like to be in something by fall of this year. > > So many people are looking into these same things & I think all of your ideas > would help a great deal! > > ps. we also have 4 little ones! > > Pearl > http://members.aol.com/frugally4u > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 17:11:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA19363 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:11:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07460; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:01:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:53:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA06440 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06427; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23583; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:00:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:00:52 EDT From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: UNHEALTHY hydronic radiant floor heating? To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3043 On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Ladies & Gentlemen: Does anyone have a recent e-mail address for any of the > BauBiolgie people in North America or Europe with whom I can explore this > question more. The consensus so far is that no-one knows what I (they) am (are) > talking about. Why is this info so illusive/confidential, if it exists? Or are > we all just ignorant or underpriviledged? Scientific data and empirical facts > is what I am looking for, that supports or disproves these rumours. They seem > to feel air floors are the answer! Is hydronic radiant floor heating a health > threat? I'd say the reason no one replies is that it seems so unlikely and so unbeleivable. Certainly the "ban" you discussed is not happening, and most of the Europeans and European literature finds hydronic floor heating to have health BENEFITS. Although some of BauBilogie principles are sound and make sense there also seems to a bit of "quackery" in some so-called BauBiologists claims. I have found several issues in the liuterature which were completely opposite of fact/science and nt based on any empirical evidence at all. My present feeling is to treat with every BauBiologie principle with some sceptisicm until proven otherwise. Unhealthy hydronic heating appears to be on of these issues. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 17:24:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA19569 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:24:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08475; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:08:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA08057 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:08:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08048 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:08:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.100.174.173] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:17:04 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Building small - cheap - & beautiful! Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:15:23 -0700 x-sender: bruce@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan cc: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1318954267-2644965@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3044 > I'd like to start a new thread on ideas for building small, but beautiful. Sharon You may have seen the article in Energy Source Builder #52 about this very topic. http://oikos.com/esb/52/smallefficient.html It outlines many basic ideas for building small without feeling cramped. Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 17:36:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA19736 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:36:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA09131; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:25:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:20:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA08773 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08768 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.162.253.53] (d33.best1.net [205.162.253.53]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA21586; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:27:21 -0700 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 02:29:14 -0700 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: UNHEALTHY hydronic radiant floor heating? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3045 >Ladies & Gentlemen: Does anyone have a recent e-mail address for any of the >BauBiolgie people in North America or Europe with whom I can explore this >question more. The consensus so far is that no-one knows what I (they) am >(are) >talking about. Try Katherine Metz kametz@aol.com LA based feng-shui practitioner and bau-biologist ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 18:00:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA20061 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:00:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA10194; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:50:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:44:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09783 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:44:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo30.mx.aol.com (imo30.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.74]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09777 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:44:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo30.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id WZXOa26228; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:51:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:51:15 EDT To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: UNHEALTHY hydronic radiant floor heating? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3046 Here's their mail e-mail contact: baubiologie@earthlink.net Hope this helps, C. Flanders Indoor Air Quality & Candles http://members.tripod.com/~rkfabf/index.html ============================================================= In a message dated 98-04-21 15:40:52 EDT, you write: << Subj: GBlist: UNHEALTHY hydronic radiant floor heating? Date: 98-04-21 15:40:52 EDT From: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca (Jorg D. Ostrowski) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org To: greenbuilding@crest.org (GreenBuilding Listserver) CC: strawbale@crest.org (Strawbale Listserver) Ladies & Gentlemen: Does anyone have a recent e-mail address for any of the BauBiolgie people in North America or Europe with whom I can explore this question more. The consensus so far is that no-one knows what I (they) am (are) talking about. Why is this info so illusive/confidential, if it exists? Or are we all just ignorant or underpriviledged? Scientific data and empirical facts is what I am looking for, that supports or disproves these rumours. They seem to feel air floors are the answer! Is hydronic radiant floor heating a health threat? Jorg Ostrowski >> ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 18:48:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA20769 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:48:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12819; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:37:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:32:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA12416 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:32:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from layla.lynx.co.nz (root@layla.lynx.co.nz [202.36.46.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA12410 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:32:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bob ([202.36.46.236]) by layla.lynx.co.nz (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA10860 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:39:21 +1200 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980422105159.006897ec@mail.lynx.co.nz> X-Sender: cornerstone@mail.lynx.co.nz X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:51:59 +1200 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Cornerstone International Ltd Subject: GBlist: Green Building E mail list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3047 Dear sirs It is with regret that we at Cornerstone must ask you to stop E mailing the letters relating to Green Building to our business computer, With the amount of use that this computer gets, we are rapidly running out of disk space on the hard drive and at present running dangerously low on memory. We will pick it up again when we get spare computers set up for applications such as this in the near future. yours etc. Cornerstone International Ltd. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 23:04:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA23429 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:04:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA23955; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:54:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:48:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA23495 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:47:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA23489 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:47:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.28] (blf28.acadia.net [205.217.217.28]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA27059 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:55:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:55:38 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: President's Million Solar Roofs Initiative Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3048 Mark Bigland-Prit asked a very thoughtful question about solar dhw in Europe. I agree that reducing hot water waste is the best place to explore first. Typically, reducing waste should continue until its incremental cost exceeds its incremental benefits. Water has to be heated by some method. From the point of view of an individual, solar often appears to have a long payback, because it must compete against the average cost of cheap, often subsidized fuels. But assuming that conservation has been maximized, a society can ask: Where shall we obtain the next increment of energy? Is it cheaper to sink another oil well, dig another mine or develop solar technology? Bear in mind that there are already many mines and wells, producing energy fairly cheaply. Solar is asked to compete against the average cost of all this production. It shouldn't. Instead, it should compete against the marginal cost of new energy sources - what the next unit of energy is going to cost. And there are benefits of solar which are hard to quantify: benefits to the environment, to national security, to balance of trade, to mobility of capital, to job creation, etc., etc. Perhaps that's why Denmark still chooses to offer a tax credit for solar system installations - as the United States once did. Personally, I'd rather see no tax credits or subsidies - including those to oil, gas, coal and uranium - and let solar compete on a level playing field. I'm sure it would do fine. Mark, please feel free to contact my brother directly if you'd like to ask him about ice shelf melting. His email address is jfoley@facstaff.wisc.edu (Prof. Jonanthan Foley). Thanks for your thoughtful comments. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 23:12:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA23614 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:12:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA24618; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:02:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:57:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA24072 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:57:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24055; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA22209; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:02:35 -0700 Message-ID: <353D5D5B.BAD82579@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:00:43 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube CC: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: UNHEALTHY hydronic radiant floor heating? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3049 I have to admit this feels very mediaeval in such an age of authority; discussing information, misinformation and the germanic ethos . I'm of two thoughts (more victorian [canadian] response) I am skeptical that there would be any ban of hydronic heating yet I am sympathetic to the potential of harm from water flow because there are cultural/historical references to such concerns. Whether they are applicable and if they are of any more concern than the myriad of concerns that face us is another issue. The issue of infloor hydronic heating is still worth discussing because the immediate issues are longevity and cost effectiveness. A vast number of original systems (40's and copper) are no longer used. A large number of early plastic systems were compromised by oxygen absorption, embrittlement, collapse, etc. Current crosslinked piping with oxygen barriers, etc. are getting very expensive. What are we REALLY looking at in terms of longevity, etc. on current applications. Given the fact that most are buried and will remain somewhat inaccessible what information can we use to justify both the material usage and cost of these systems. I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate here because it is one of my preferences in terms of comfort and initial efficiency but to be honest I don't feel that confident about their long term application and I am thinking that their current popularity may prove unfounded as a sustaining heating option. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. John Straube wrote: > On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > Ladies & Gentlemen: Does anyone have a recent e-mail address for any of the > > BauBiolgie people in North America or Europe with whom I can explore this > > question more. The consensus so far is that no-one knows what I (they) am (are) > > talking about. Why is this info so illusive/confidential, if it exists? Or are > > we all just ignorant or underpriviledged? Scientific data and empirical facts > > is what I am looking for, that supports or disproves these rumours. They seem > > to feel air floors are the answer! Is hydronic radiant floor heating a health > > threat? > > I'd say the reason no one replies is that it seems so unlikely and so > unbeleivable. Certainly the "ban" you discussed is not happening, and > most of the Europeans and European literature finds hydronic floor > heating to have health BENEFITS. > > Although some of BauBilogie principles are sound and make sense there > also seems to a bit of "quackery" in some so-called BauBiologists > claims. I have found several issues in the liuterature which were > completely opposite of fact/science and nt based on any empirical > evidence at all. My present feeling is to treat with every BauBiologie > principle with some sceptisicm until proven otherwise. Unhealthy > hydronic heating appears to be on of these issues. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube > Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group > University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg > Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 > UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 > Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 > x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 21 23:22:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA23707 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:22:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA25266; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:12:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:07:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA24842 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:07:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA24838 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:07:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA22378; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:12:43 -0700 Message-ID: <353D5FBA.23C1F96A@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:10:51 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: President's Million Solar Roofs Initiative References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3050 I think the tendency has been to look to greater efficiency in solar applications and unfortunately the technology has a big price tag compared to what was initially termed 'appropriate' technology. A good example is vacum tube collectors that are quite prohibitive in cost at current energy costs. The technology is excellent but the usage is limited. The cost and energy effectiveness of simpler technology (i.e. black piping) is proven but the usage is again limited. I think the real question is one of existing energy sources and the subsidized or rationalized cost. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. David M. Foley wrote: > Mark Bigland-Prit asked a very thoughtful question about solar dhw in > Europe. I agree that reducing hot water waste is the best place to explore > first. Typically, reducing waste should continue until its incremental cost > exceeds its incremental benefits. > > Water has to be heated by some method. From the point of view of an > individual, solar often appears to have a long payback, because it must > compete against the average cost of cheap, often subsidized fuels. But > assuming that conservation has been maximized, a society can ask: Where > shall we obtain the next increment of energy? Is it cheaper to sink > another oil well, dig another mine or develop solar technology? > > Bear in mind that there are already many mines and wells, producing energy > fairly cheaply. Solar is asked to compete against the average cost of all > this production. It shouldn't. Instead, it should compete against the > marginal cost of new energy sources - what the next unit of energy is going > to cost. > > And there are benefits of solar which are hard to quantify: benefits to the > environment, to national security, to balance of trade, to mobility of > capital, to job creation, etc., etc. > > Perhaps that's why Denmark still chooses to offer a tax credit for solar > system installations - as the United States once did. Personally, I'd > rather see no tax credits or subsidies - including those to oil, gas, coal > and uranium - and let solar compete on a level playing field. I'm sure it > would do fine. > > Mark, please feel free to contact my brother directly if you'd like to ask > him about ice shelf melting. His email address is jfoley@facstaff.wisc.edu > (Prof. Jonanthan Foley). > > Thanks for your thoughtful comments. > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 22 08:23:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA27637 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:23:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11104; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:13:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:07:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA10781 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:07:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eei.org (mail.eei.org [204.254.108.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10777 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:07:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WPDomain-Message_Server by eei.org with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:15:23 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:15:04 -0400 From: "Harvey Sachs" To: dmfoley@acadia.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: solar hot water Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id IAA10778 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3051 David - noted your post on re cost of solar. I did a bunch of work on this in the early 90s at U. of Maryland, and the most striking things I learned were about economies of scale and learning curves. Scale: If, at that time, you called a solar DHW dealer from the yellow pages re a single installation, the cost (in round numbers) for a retrofit would be $4000. If a developer wanted to do 20 - 100 in new construction, the cost would be in the range of $2000. There are great economies in doing the plumbing while in construction, and great transaction savings when selling and delivering 20 units. If you argue the other direction, a solar DHW unit is certainly simpler than a refrigerator, so in real mass production (100,000 per assembly line per year) the cost should be less, so a target of $1000/unit installed in new construction is realistic for a mature market. The Hard Problem is deriving a set of efficient policies that let the system move to that equilibrium. I believe that this problem of the high manufacturing and transaction costs of less mature technologies is pervasive, and not just in renewables. Policy folks will have to learn marketing and manufacting if they want to succeed in market transformation. But, that is another story! harvey sachs geothermal heat pump consortium ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 22 09:29:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA00861 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:29:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14164; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:18:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:13:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13454 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:13:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13442; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:13:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10126; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:20:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:20:30 EDT From: John Straube Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: UNHEALTHY hydronic radiant floor heating? To: John Salmen cc: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <353D5D5B.BAD82579@cow-net.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3052 On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, John Salmen wrote: > I have to admit this feels very mediaeval in such an age of authority; discussing > information, misinformation and the germanic ethos . I'm of two thoughts (more > victorian [canadian] response) I am skeptical that there would be any ban of hydronic > heating yet I am sympathetic to the potential of harm from water flow because there > are cultural/historical references to such concerns. Whether they are applicable and > if they are of any more concern than the myriad of concerns that face us is another > issue. I would not feel uncomfortable questioning either authority or the germanic ethos (maybe they are the same ...?). I was not aware the flowing water had unhealthy cultural connotations -- in fact I thought it was quite the opposite, but I ain't no expert. I know that you are not to build on springs or underground rivers for obvious practical reasons. > terms of comfort and initial efficiency but to be honest I don't feel that confident > about their long term application and I am thinking that their current popularity may > prove unfounded as a sustaining heating option. I agree that some caution is required here, but they have been installing hydronic systems with plastic piping for at least 25 years in Germany, and I beleive it is actually longer (my earliest reference to plastic is about 25 yrs). They do not have problems -- a good friend of mine is a partner in a heating firm in Germany and we discuss such things regularily. In fact, we late spoke in person last April. The plastics have greatly improved, using water in a closed loop reduces any possible leaching or chemical reaction and encasing the lot in concrete and running at low temp seems from all of our experience to be a very durable thing to do. I off to fry bigger fish .. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 22 09:50:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01271 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:50:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15420; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:40:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:35:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14856 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:34:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com ([206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14852 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:34:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sd3.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.228]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA26566 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353DF23F.5C05@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:35:59 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Carbon sensors Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3053 I don't seem to be able to predict what will stimulate dialogue on this list and what won't, an accidental post about shutting down your computer creates a two week stream, while DOE's top ten list garners zip. But I'll throw one more out just for the hell of it, you can do what you will with the info. Wired News today has another article that might interest some of you, it discusses Ameriflux, a US funded project for monitoring carbon banking for the Kyoto accords. If your interested you can find the article at: http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/11825.html > The idea is to use data culled from > networks of sensors mounted in diverse > environments, run complex equations, and crunch > massive amounts of data to answer some basic > questions: Where is Earth’s carbon dioxide going > and why does it wind up in the places it does? > > The answer, say the scientists, is not so > straightforward. "For a long time, we thought it > was the oceans that took up the carbon dioxide, > but later we found it was on land and in the > forests," explained David Hollinger, leader of the science team for AmeriFlux. > > Such sleuthing is key in understanding –- and > solving –- global warming, believed to be caused > by the accumulation in Earth’s atmosphere of > highly absorbent trace elements such as carbon > dioxide. These greenhouse gases absorb energy > from Earth, keeping it in the atmosphere to heat > up the planet. In large amounts, global climates > become unnaturally warm. Without any of the > gases, the Earth would be much colder. The most > critical of these gases to the Earth’s warming is > carbon dioxide. Since the industrial revolution, the > carbon dioxide concentration in the atmosphere > has risen from 280 parts per million to 360 parts > per million. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 22 09:54:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01357 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15724; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:44:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:39:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15202 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:38:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15197 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:38:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.70.44 (pm2-44.hoosier.net [206.106.70.44]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA06987 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:46:17 -0500 Message-ID: <353DAE2C.773F@bloomington.in.us> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:45:33 +0000 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF fields References: <19980421.122739.15310.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3054 For those of you interested in studies on EMFs, there have been literally thousands and thousands done. They arte often contradictory, sometimes depending on where the funding came from. An interesting report (and easy to read) was done by the Labor Institute a few years ago that included summaries of studies in electrical occupations such as electricians. At that time, for example, various studies had found increased risks of leukemias in electrical occupations between .98 times and 3.8 times higher than in the general population. Ref: "Electromagnetic Fields (EMFs): A Training Workbook for Working People" The Labor Institute, 853 Broadway, NY, NY 10003, 212-674-3322. I suspect that there are more health subtle effects from emfs than cancer, but I also feel that we are at more risk from chemical exposures due to outgassing, poor indoor air quality, etc. But emfs often get more press. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 22 10:46:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02423 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:46:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19231; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:35:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:30:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18800 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18796 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:30:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4EIAa23305 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:37:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: <8e4bd015.353e00a6@aol.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:37:25 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Carbon sensors Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 170 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3055 In a message dated 4/22/98 9:44:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ashcreek@dreamscape.com writes: << I don't seem to be able to predict what will stimulate dialogue on this list and what won't, an accidental post about shutting down your computer creates a two week stream, while DOE's top ten list garners zip. But I'll throw one more out just for the hell of it, you can do what you will with the info. >> I found both posts interesting so keep them coming Chuck! They don't seem controversial (to me) but more interesting info. It was actually nice to see CO2 levels haven't doubled yet. (ER humor there) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 22 12:15:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA04656 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:15:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25725; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:59:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25083 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25076 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:58:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA05959; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:05:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va9-32.ix.netcom.com(207.223.177.96) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma005929; Wed Apr 22 11:04:38 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980422120318.00730970@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:03:21 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Cost-effective Solar -- Not An Oxymoron Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id LAA25078 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3056 >John Salmen, TERRAIN E.D.S. wrote: >Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:10:51 -0700 >From: John Salmen >Subject: Re: GBlist: President's Million Solar Roofs Initiative > >I think the tendency has been to look to greater efficiency in solar >applications and unfortunately the technology has a big price tag compared to >what was initially termed 'appropriate' technology. A good example is vacum >tube collectors that are quite prohibitive in cost at current energy costs. >The technology is excellent but the usage is limited. (etc.) >------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some Comments and Perspectives on General cost-effectiveness and the ranking of primary solar buildings technologies (not including PV): 1. Passive Solar - "climate specific building design" why? -- lowest feasible temperatures, locally available materials, actually applies common sense to space conditioning. Anyone can build, with abundant design assistance available. Sun- tempering: $0 = ~20% to 25% savings; "real" passive solar heating $ + 2% = 35% to 50% savings; architectural cooling: in a monitored home in Reston VA, over 97% of the cooling demand was satisfied by architectural features of building. (NSDN, "Sundance" home, 1982, NTIS reports and ASES papers) 2. Low-temp solar thermal -- i.e. Water heating, water/air pre-heating why? -- reasonably low temperatures, wide dT from inlet (fluid)water to finished water at the solar storage tank, yields good collector performance, PV circulation pumps or batch heaters reduce "parasitic" operating cost. 1998 price points are in the $900 to $1,200 range for an entry level system for family of three; yielding 40% HW solar fraction ~ 5yr payback 3. High(er) Temperature thermal solar (poorer cost-effectiveness) why? -- loads (air-conditioning, for example) often not down sized which forces installation of larger more costly solar collection transfer, control, and storage sub-systems. High operating power levels (reduced net system efficiency) Fluids problems like corrosion, pump wear, valve life. Often did not follow K.I.S.S. principal. Tend to be one-off "engineered" systems. Note on evacuated tube collectors: -------------------------------------- Could perform well if matched to an efficient load, but in the monitored examples in the NSDN (1979-1984), the Evac tube arrays were mis-matched to over-engineered heating systems, thermally leaky storage, poor controls, and had other systematic problems -- such as chronic mixing of solar heat with auxiliary heat (big no-no) -- reducing their likelihood of realizing their potential. E6SR? ------- My fondest wishes, as someone back on the outside looking in at current solar projects, is that A.) the wheel not be reinvented; B.) go with proven winners and do not turn Million S.R.'s program into Solar Demo II; C.) that simplified monitoring be conducted not to generate a data-glut but rather to focus on quick resolution of system problems and documentation of general cost-effectiveness, and CO2 emissions reductions compared to business as usual energy applications. Why were not PV's considered above? ---------------------------------------- Photovoltaic power systems are evolving so rapidly in their price and performance points, now, that I have not been able to keep track of their trajectory. However, I have seen installed costs coming down rapidly and anyone considering a power system for a building some distance away from grid connection should definitely consider PV or a hybrid PV/Wind system and run a life cycle cost analysis over the life of the building and systems to determine whether it makes economic sense to grid connect. Installed costs vary widely by supplier and region of country. #1 rule: A "PV" building needs first to be as super-efficient and designed as a system, otherwise electric power demand bloat will increase array, controller, storage (battery) and installation costs. ** Additional references: ------------------------------ Howard, B. D., "Lower Air-Conditioning By Design: Solar Cooling Gains Avoidance." Excellence in Housing. Feb. 1994. 12th Annual Conference of EEBA. Howard, B. D., "Renewable-base Building Energy Technologies: How They Stack up for DSM." Oct. 1994. Proc. National Regulatory Conference on Renewable Energy, Savannah, Georgia (Invited). © NARUC, Washington, DC. Howard, B. D., "Sensible Design Solutions for Milder U.S. Climates: Basics of Passive Architectural Cooling." Proc. of: 10th EEBA Conference (1992) Energy Efficient Building Association (EEBA), Wausau, WI Howard, B. D., "Building Performance Monitoring -- The Thermal Envelope Perspective, Past, Present, and Future." (with D.H. Saunders) 1989. Proc. of ASHRAE/DOE/BTECC - Thermal Envelopes Conference IV (pg. 12-23). Orlando, FL (Dec. 1989). ASHRAE, Atlanta, GA. Howard, B. D., "Comparing NSDN Passive Solar Buildings with Selected Super-insulated Houses." (invited paper, and plenary session 'Passive Solar versus Super-insulation') ASES 7th National Passive Solar Conference. 1982. ASES, Boulder Co. Paper also published in: _Progress in Solar Energy_, 1983. Howard, B. D., "Monitored Performance of 18 Solar Hot Water Systems in the DOE-NSDN." Annual Meeting Intern. Solar Energy Society, 1982. ASES, Boulder Co. Howard, B. D., "Overcoming Common Design Problems." 1982. Solar Engineering and Contracting Magazine (defunct), © Business Publishers, Troy, MI # # # | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 22 12:40:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA05074 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27632; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:24:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA27118 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:24:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27113 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:24:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from van-52-2117.direct.ca (kadulski) [209.153.226.17] by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yS2R3-0005wB-00; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:31:50 -0700 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: GBlist: hydronic radiant floor heating Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:32:24 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3057 I wonder if what Jorg heard about unhealthy hydronic radiant floor heating was a message that got garbled in the retelling. There may be a concern about the suitability of circulating POTABLE weater through the heating loops, especially as that water may be stagnant for prolonged periods of the year. Some tubing manufacturers actually label their piping as "non-potable". It probably is legitimate to keep the water loop in the heating system separate from the potable water, It can be easily done through a heat exchanger (and is done that way here in BC). I wonder if there are some restrictions on electric radiant heating (which uses electric heating cables in the floor), and with the baubiologists' concerns about EMF, that the message got confused? John Salmen raised the question of durability. Indeed much of the early plastic piping used in heating systems allows oxygen diffusion through the pipe walls, so that the circulating water becomes oxygen rich and can hasten corrosion of system components. New piping in use today has been redesigned with oxygen barriers, to deal with that issue (and yes, though the tubing may be more expensive, it's not prohibitively so - after all spec builders in this area are happily using radiant heating sytems with the new piping) The piping is more durable than the metal tubing used forty years ago that had a short life. ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seymour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 22 12:41:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA05101 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27804; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:25:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA27219 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:25:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27214 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:25:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from van-as-05c11.direct.ca (kadulski) [204.174.249.43] by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yS2S4-00002N-00; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:32:53 -0700 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: GBlist: hydronic radiant floor heating Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:32:24 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3058 I wonder if what Jorg heard about unhealthy hydronic radiant floor heating was a message that got garbled in the retelling. There may be a concern about the suitability of circulating POTABLE weater through the heating loops, especially as that water may be stagnant for prolonged periods of the year. Some tubing manufacturers actually label their piping as "non-potable". It probably is legitimate to keep the water loop in the heating system separate from the potable water, It can be easily done through a heat exchanger (and is done that way here in BC). I wonder if there are some restrictions on electric radiant heating (which uses electric heating cables in the floor), and with the baubiologists' concerns about EMF, that the message got confused? John Salmen raised the question of durability. Indeed much of the early plastic piping used in heating systems allows oxygen diffusion through the pipe walls, so that the circulating water becomes oxygen rich and can hasten corrosion of system components. New piping in use today has been redesigned with oxygen barriers, to deal with that issue (and yes, though the tubing may be more expensive, it's not prohibitively so - after all spec builders in this area are happily using radiant heating sytems with the new piping) The piping is more durable than the metal tubing used forty years ago that had a short life. ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 208 - 1280 Seymour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 22 15:26:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09274 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08224; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:15:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:09:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA07447 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07441 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:09:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.185] (usr0a16.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.80]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA12502 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:16:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:22:10 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: job announcement with Global Green in LA Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3059 I wouldn't normally post a job notice on this list, but this one matches the experience and interests of this group so well that it seemed appropriate... Nadav Global Green USA Global Green USA (GG USA) is the American affiliate of Green Cross International led by President Mikhail S. Gorbachev. GG USA's mission is to work in cooperation with individuals, industry, and government to create a global value shift toward a sustainable future. Technical Program Associate - (New Position) Position for and enthusiastic, hands on architect, engineer, and/or construction manager with experience in green building and/or energy efficiency. The goal of our Resource Efficiency/Sustainable Communities Program Area is to reduce resource consumption and foster sustainable communities by encouraging the design, construction, and maintenance of resource-efficient buildings. Working with the Program Director and Policy Program Associate, responsibilities include: * coordinating technical assistance programs; * developing programs and workshops to increase resource efficiency in affordable housing and other buildings; and * working with partner builders to develop in-house green development tools including guidelines and specifications. BA/BS required, Masters preferred. 4 to 6 years minimum experience in architecture, affordable housing, and/or green building a must. Location: Los Angeles. Salary: DOE. Mail, fax, or email resume, cover letter, and 1-2 page writing samples to Lynn N. Simon, Global Green USA, 1600 South Main Street, Venice, CA 90291. FAX: (310) 577-1885, email: ggusa@globalgreen.org. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 22 17:54:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA16306 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:54:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA20186; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:40:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:35:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA19265 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:34:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eypdc04.eypae.com (eypdc04.eypae.com [205.234.22.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19255 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:34:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by eypdc04.eypae.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:42:48 -0400 Message-ID: From: Mike Fowler To: "'Ibe404'" , "'Sprngwnd'" , "'Jonathan Harkness'" Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: Solar Roofs Initiative Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:34:16 -0400 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3060 I have had some requests for addition information regarding tax incentives, federal and local, net metering and power utilities, and the solar shingles used on the NAHB Demonstration townhomes. I do not have many specific details, but this is what I can offer. I believe there is a 15% rebate(?) up to $2000 available from the federal government. But the best place for information on the federal incentives would be to call or email one of the Dept. of Energy's Regional Offices. That way you will get answers straight from the horses mouth. Phone and email address are at http://www.eren.doe.gov/millionroofs/contacts.html There is also financing information at http://www.eren.doe.gov/millionroofs/links.html For state incentives, the North Carolina Solar Center provides a list called DSIRE at http://www.ncsc.ncsu.edu/dsire.htm The question regarding net metering and dealing with the local power utility is beyond my current knowledge. My local utility is Niagara Mohawk and not NYSEG. And I have not had an opportunity to talk with them yet, my office is just getting on the green learning curve. Our DC office is further ahead. The solar shingles are more like shingles than metal standing seam roof. >From our DC office I got the following information, "have seen the NAHB townhouse and met the pv-designer. The roof is made of pv shingles which are flexible and have a dark blue color. Each shingle connects horizontally with the next and sends current to the end of the row. Then it travels up to the ridge where it is picked up and flows to the basement inverter and battery. That is my partial understanding. I don't remember who manufactures the shingles." Thanks Suzanne for your help. The NAHB website only says that a "first-of-its-kind photovoltaic roof that is capable of generating a significant share of the house's electrical needs" was used. In the manufacturer list the only company that seems a possible maker is Water Film Energy, Inc. but I have not been able to locate any more about the product or the company. I know United Solar Systems in San Diego (800-397-2083) makes solar shingles and have seen a small photo of them. The product description says it can be integrated into shingle and standing seam roofs. The cost is $15,000 - 25,000 installed (did not give sq. ft. of roof) and would save $300 - 500 per year. I have noted other posts by David Foley, Bion D. Howard, Mark Bigland-Pritchard and John Salmen who have also posted some additional information and thoughts on solar costs . Thanks to you all for your words and insight. There is a lot to be done in terms of incentives, prices and installer knowledge. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on your questions. It has been a busy week. Mike. ________________________________ Michael E. Fowler Registered Architect, State of New York Einhorn Yaffee Prescott Architecture & Engineering, P.C. The Argus Building PO Box 617 Broadway at Beaver Street Albany NY 12201-0617 EYP Web Site: http://www.eypae.com/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 22 20:07:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA18517 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:07:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA27846; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:56:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:51:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA27478 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:51:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA27474 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:51:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LitHowie@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4ELKa27908 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:58:08 -0400 (EDT) From: LitHowie Message-ID: <7dc005c4.353e8411@aol.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:58:08 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Cellulose as Vapor Barrier? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3061 I am building an energy-efficient house and was told a my builder that I do not need a vapor barrier (across the interior side of the studs) for my exterior walls if I use wet spray cellulose with adhesive. He said it forms a skin which acts as a vapor barrier. I have never heard this mentioned anywhere else. Does anyone know if this is true? Thanks Kate Howard ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 22 22:13:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20185 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:13:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA04356; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:02:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:58:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA03825 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:58:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03820 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.101] (usr1a41.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.169]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA29958; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:05:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:05:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <7dc005c4.353e8411@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: LitHowie , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Cellulose as Vapor Barrier? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3062 At 7:58 PM -0400 4/22/98, LitHowie wrote: >I am building an energy-efficient house and was told a my builder that I do >not need a vapor barrier (across the interior side of the studs) for my >exterior walls if I use wet spray cellulose with adhesive. He said it forms a >skin which acts as a vapor barrier. I have never heard this mentioned anywhere >else. Does anyone know if this is true? Thanks Kate Howard The cellulose does not form a skin at all and is _not_ a vapor retarder. HOWEVER, because the wet-spray cellulose provides such an effective _air barrier_, some experts feel that a separate vapor retarder layer is not needed. The reasoning is as follows: studies have shown that a very high percentage of the moisture that gets into a wall cavity gets there via _air leakage_, not diffusion. Thus, if we effectively block the air leakage, the amount of moisture getting into the wall cavity may be so minor as to be insignificant. In a Northeastern climate, I recommend _also_ adding a vapor retarder (a separate poly layer or at least a coating of vapor retarder paint on the inside surface of exterior walls), but not knowing where you are located, I'm not sure how important this is. If you are in a cold climate with significant moisture concerns, I feel that this sort of "insurance policy" is justified. -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 23 07:15:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA26275 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:15:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA19718; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 23 Apr 1998 06:58:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA19431 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 06:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.38]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA19427 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 06:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4IFYa04057 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:05:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Caaradrbl Message-ID: <1fad6888.353f207b@aol.com> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:05:29 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Cellulose as Vapor Barrier? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3063 >>Thus, if we effectively block the air leakage, the amount of moisture getting into the wall cavity may be so minor as to be insignificant. In a Northeastern climate, I recommend _also_ adding a vapor retarder (a separate poly layer or at least a coating of vapor retarder paint on the inside surface of exterior walls), but not knowing where you are located, I'm not sure how important this is.<< Alex Wilson, Editor I have to agree with this, and I think the vapor barrier paint or wall paper since you can see breaks in the skin much easier than in a vapor retarder behind the drywall. The big thing with walls is plugging the leaks from floor to floor in the walls and, from outside to inside of the wall, and from heated space to attic. In other words if there is no pressure differential between the inside of the room and the interior of the wall there should be no air exchange. No air exchange, very little moisture. This means foaming all plumbing vents, light boxes in the ceilings, outlets in exterior walls, exterior outlets in walls, wiring holes, etc, etc. Your contractor gets only one chance at this, be picky. I would pass up the wet cellulose in favor of "blow in batt" type dry cellulose (ARC SEAL) since it is a lot dryer. Then there is the need to keep your house dry during the winter. Go for a heat recovery ventilator of some kind to get the bad air out and the good air in. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Contractors Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 23 08:07:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA26732 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA21151; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:57:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:52:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA20887 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:52:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA20882 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip210.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.210]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA10201; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980423120057.006cd248@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:00:57 -0400 To: LitHowie , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Cellulose as Vapor Barrier? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3064 At 10:05 PM 4/22/1998 -0400, Alex Wilson wrote: > ............ >In a Northeastern climate, I recommend _also_ adding a vapor retarder (a >separate poly layer or at least a coating of vapor retarder paint on the >inside surface of exterior walls), but not knowing where you are located, >I'm not sure how important this is. If you are in a cold climate with >significant moisture concerns, I feel that this sort of "insurance policy" >is justified. > >-Alex Wilson, Editor >Environmental Building News Gliddens Vapor Primer is the best of the paintable & adequate VRs - its' perm rating is smaller (better) than kraft papered f/g batts, meeting 99% of all local US codes. Minimal additional cost & an excellent primer (although yr painter may object since there is more carrier than pigment, carrier is the VR, not the pigment). The 1st coat of real paint goes on well & will cover nicely. Beware: 1 - Wet framing lumber & wet spray cellulose & quick dry walling - we have seen high levels of residual moisture in similar walls 12 + months later. 2 - Realize that the VR will also reduce the drying capabilties of the above - possibly you want to have your house under a controllable negative pressure - a) to dry it out, b)to create 'dynamic insulation' & c) to prevent it getting wet from condensation in the future. 3 - Yr insulator should & ought to be able to give you an air-sealing estimate, an air-changes-per-hour guarantee (what are you getting !!) Please note that the list has been asked to divulge local climates, zip codes or heating degree days (cooling degree hours ?? ), as we get better at making guesses on what really goes on in buildings, we need to know where is that building, what is the orientation, etc., etc. ... best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 23 09:05:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA27233 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:05:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23685; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:55:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:50:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA23151 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:49:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23146 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:49:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (se1.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.34]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA03747 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:57:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353F3968.3DCA@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:51:52 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Enviro Friendly Dry Cleaning Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3065 Don't buy that new washer yet! Today's news flash comes from Pac. NW. Nat. Labs, yesterday's source too, I subscribed!!! Release date: April 23, 1998 Contact: Tim Ledbetter (509) 375-5953 Lab-Developed System Uses Carbon Dioxide To Clean Up On Dirt RICHLAND, Wash. -- With a little help from science, carbon dioxide, a colorless, odorless and tasteless gas widely used in the food industry and in the synthesis of chemicals will provide consumers with a new, environmentally friendly option for cleaning clothes. A recent agreement between Pacific Northwest National Laboratory and MiCELL Technologies Inc., a North Carolina firm providing unique cleaning and coating solutions, ensures the laboratory's discoveries related to the behavior of supercritical fluids will be commercialized. According to Nick Lombardo, a commercialization manager at Pacific Northwest, the processes have the potential to revolutionize the dry-cleaning business by replacing conventional, solvent-based cleaning with processes that use no water, have low energy requirements, employ no toxic substances, create no waste issues and have no regulatory burdens. "And once a garment is cleaned with this process, the detergents and carbon dioxide are recycled. Very little of anything is discharged to the environment," he said. http://www.pnl.gov/news/1998/bnw98_14.htm ____________________________________________________________________ They may be available within a year, so anyone considering a new front loader might want to wait. Although, it wasn't clear to me whether these were strictly commercial dry cleaning units or they would replace the home washing machine. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 23 09:28:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA27452 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:28:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24655; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:17:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:12:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24320 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:12:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24316 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id IDLJa09371; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:18:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcoplos Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:18:44 EDT To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Enviro Friendly Dry Cleaning Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3066 The inventor behind MiCELL is from the University of North Carolina, so there has been a litttle attention paid to his work here in central NC. I believe that the application is designed for commercial dry cleaning operations. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 23 09:51:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA27668 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:50:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25462; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:39:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:34:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25162 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:34:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25157 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:34:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA30351 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:41:52 -0400 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-73-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.73]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA03870 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980423093742.006da4e8@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:37:42 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Re: Bargain solar hot water and radiant concerns In-Reply-To: <199804230600.CAA12214@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3067 Bion Howard wrote: 2. Low-temp solar thermal -- i.e. Water heating, water/air pre-heating why? -- reasonably low temperatures, wide dT from inlet (fluid)water to finished water at the solar storage tank, yields good collector performance, PV circulation pumps or batch heaters reduce "parasitic" operating cost. 1998 price points are in the $900 to $1,200 range for an entry level system for family of three; yielding 40% HW solar fraction ~ 5yr payback -------- Bion -- If you can get me solar water heaters at that price, I'll take 3 On radiant tubing cast in concrete floors: How does one reconcile the differing rates of thermal expansion of the plastic and concrete? I would think this would lead to long term problems -- chafing of piping, eventual leaking. Anyone else worry about this or have any experience with this? Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc RR5 Box 780 Montpelier VT 05602 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 23 10:19:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28133 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27107; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:09:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:03:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26656 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:03:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26652 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA21941 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esy7.vineyard.net(206.166.158.137) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id smaa21892; Thu Apr 23 10:11:02 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980423093742.006da4e8@together.net> References: <199804230600.CAA12214@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Bargain solar hot water and radiant concerns Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3068 >Bion Howard wrote: >2. Low-temp solar thermal -- i.e. Water heating, water/air pre-heating > > why? -- reasonably low temperatures, wide dT from inlet (fluid)water > to finished water at the solar storage tank, yields good > collector performance, PV circulation pumps or batch heaters > reduce "parasitic" operating cost. 1998 price points are > in the $900 to $1,200 range for an entry level system for > family of three; yielding 40% HW solar fraction ~ 5yr payback Andy Shapiro wrote: >Bion -- If you can get me solar water heaters at that price, I'll take 3 Bion - please tack 16 additional systems onto Andy's order - shipping info to follow. See how easy it is to become an instant solar entrepreneur? John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 23 10:26:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28217 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:26:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28029; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:11:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27258 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:10:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27254 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id K[L00431; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:17:09 EDT To: malcolm.scott@which.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:32:11 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF fields Message-ID: <19980423.102017.6566.4.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <19980421.122739.15310.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-16,19-21 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3069 On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:02:58 +0100 malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) writes: >What is an energy shield? >Malcolm Scott > > >Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > > He was so sensitized > >> he had to watch television through an energy shield. > > > Malcolm, IThe unit he had devised was similar to that used on computers. It was already in place so I had no part in acquiring the shield. I do know that several computer stores locally sell similar shields. Beverly _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 23 10:27:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28236 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:27:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28120; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:17:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:11:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27309 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27299 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:11:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id K[K00431; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:17:09 EDT To: Rkfabf@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:27:28 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Re: This may be of some interest to you Message-ID: <19980423.102017.6566.3.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <680209e3.353cd32d@aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,8-9,11-17 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3070 Hi, RK Thanks for the info and I will keep it in mind. To date I have had no such problems, probably because I mostly work with clients who have allergies or chemical sensistivity. These people look to minimize the number of scents in their homes so such items as scented candles are generally a no no. Most have difficulty walking into such places as candle shops or anywhere that uses potpourri. I can sympathize since I myself find some of the shops are way too heavy handed on the scents. I will however keep my radar up and let you know if I have any such instances. Thanks for thinking of me. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 23 11:10:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28787 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01153; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:00:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:56:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00630 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00624 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:56:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.100.174.173] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0); Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:04:55 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Bargain solar hot water and radiant concerns Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:03:11 -0700 x-sender: bruce@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1318803798-1301559@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3071 Bion mentioned affordable solar water heaters. One such device appears in the Oikos product gallery this month. Intended for DIYers, the packages range from $900 to about $1600. This doesn't include a storage tank, since the idea is to use an existing water heater. More info at: http://www.oikos.com/newproducts/index.html Bruce >1998 price points are > in the $900 to $1,200 range for an entry level system for > family of three; yielding 40% HW solar fraction ~ 5yr payback -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 23 16:35:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA06761 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:35:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20464; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:24:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:20:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20081 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bswintl.com (mailhub.bswintl.com [207.13.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20074 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:19:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from BSW4-Message_Server by bswintl.com with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:26:55 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:28:27 -0500 From: Dru Meadows To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: awnings Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3072 ** High Priority ** I have a commercial client that requries fabric awnings. Industry standard is "Sunbrella" made from 100% acryic fiber with a fluorocarbon finish. I have written an alternate specification around painted army duck. Any other suggestions? Comments? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 23 19:54:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA09930 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:54:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00374; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:39:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA29880 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:38:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pop02.globecomm.net (pop02.globecomm.net [207.51.48.186]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA29876 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from artlover.com (pm1-219.mry.redshift.com [207.204.197.219]) by pop02.globecomm.net (8.8.8/8.8.0) with ESMTP id TAA05365; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 19:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353FD368.49C5D226@artlover.com> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:48:57 -0700 From: Daniel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Hydronic design Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3073 While looking up the info on low cost solar hot water heaters at the Oikos site suggested by Bruce Sullivan I noticed their write-up on a product called Warmboard from Jeld-Wen described as a panel 1-3/32 in. thick which has clearly visible grooves for holding standard hydronic tubing and which can be installed directly over floor joists. This sounds real good to me but I'm new to the world of hydronic heating. I would appreciate hearing what some of you with more experience in hydronic heating have to say about this product. I am restricted from pouring a slab and need to go with a raised floor ... what are some other ways to work in hydronic heat? The description mentioned standard hydronic tubing ... what is "standard"? Is it possible to cool the house in hot weather by running cool water through the hydronic system? Many thanks for all of the useful information I am finding here. Daniel ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 24 10:21:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19564 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:21:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24618; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:06:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24185 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:05:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24180 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:05:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sover.net (usr0a83.burl.sover.net [207.136.202.83]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA15128 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35409DE1.4CF783EF@sover.net> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:12:49 -0400 From: Eric Warren X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuild List Subject: GBlist: Wood Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3074 Hi All, There is a lot of talk on this list and amongst those interested in "green" building about minimizing wood use and about using smaller dimension lumber in construction. I've often seen roof and floor trusses composed of small dimension lumber and composite materials advocated as a more sustainable use of precious wood resources. I have several questions with regard to this. First of all does anyone have any information about how much wood is cut for use in construction as opposed to other uses - both today and historically. For instance, where I live, in Vermont, the forests were cleared mostly for use in steel production, to make way for agriculture, and for other industries - I suspect that in an historical sense, lumber had more of an impact on the devistation of particular species than on forests as a whole - most trees having been cut for fuel and other uses. I don't know that this is true, it is just the sense that I get. I assume that present day lumber consumption is a larger percentage of the total, but what is it? I'm sure there are publications which address this, I just don't know what they are. Secondly, how do engineered trusses hold up as compared to large timbers? Around here there are many old buildings with large beams a couple hundred years old which are still plenty strong. And, many of these beams are reused when the buildings come down. Now, I'm no engineer, but, it seems to me that large timbers are incredibly resilient when it comes to flexing, bending and twisting over and over again for hundreds of years without significant weakening, while engineered trusses, due to the fact that they rely on metal fasteners and stiff materials such as plywood or OSB, and the fact that they are designed to be very stiff overall, will not hold up well to such long term stresses - unless, of course, they are simply strong enough that they do not bend or move at all. And, third, large timbers don't require additional materials to cover them up. I know there is something of a debate between those advocating old-fasioned, timber framing and those preferring the modern engineered approach. And, I know that there are benefits to both based on local conditions and available materials. But, I wonder if anyone has any information about the amount of wood and other materials used in construction based around large timbers as opposed to smaller dimension lumber? Included in this would be the waste involved in milling the different sized lumber. Thanx -Eric Warren (ewarren@sover.net) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 24 10:30:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19721 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25274; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:18:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:14:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24784 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:14:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24757; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA125182; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:20:39 -0600 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:20:39 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Cruickshank Cc: "'GreenBuilding Listserver'" , "'Strawbale Listserver'" Subject: GBlist: RE: UNHEALTHY hydronic radiant floor heating? In-Reply-To: <199804231248_MC2-3ACE-4323@compuserve.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3075 John: Further to the note of below, if they turned off the "heating system pumps" perhaps they got headaches from the noise (either the pump or lack of sound (vibration) isolators (especially if attached to wood framing members). In addition, I wonder it it may have been connected with enhanced outgassing from all the admixtures (ie. air entrainment agents, water reducers, plasticizers, sealants, etc.) of the concrete slab, if they had one. Were these considered, isolated and ruled out? I also wonder, if in retrospect today they think it was the (hydronic) radiant floor heating system? I assume it was hydronic or perhaps was it electrical heating? Are you still in touch with these people? Thanks for the anecdote. Jorg ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### Jorg, Can't help you with the Baubiology folks, but have met friends that refuse to live in radiant water floor heated homes. Did once, didn't know the nature of the heating system. Within no time, they each had persistent splitting head aches in the morning. After many months, they discovered how their house was heated. Knowing something of the subtler nature of life's mysteries, they tried shutting off the heating system pumps. No more headaches!! Moral: If you intend to explore this option, go live at a friends with system first. Could save a lot of headaches... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 24 12:23:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA22094 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02648; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:12:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:08:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02243 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:08:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CLEMSON.EDU (mail.clemson.edu [130.127.28.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02238 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:08:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cdewitt.clemson.edu ([206.240.183.38]) by CLEMSON.EDU (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA05058 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:15:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980424121555.007f8eb0@mail.clemson.edu> X-Sender: cdewitt@mail.clemson.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:15:55 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Craig DeWitt Subject: GBlist: Implied warranties Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3076 Does anyone know of an instance where a builder has been forced to buy back a house because of bad IAQ and an implied warranty of habitability? Several years ago, I did a paper on implied warranties of habitability. Basically this says that, besides any express warranty about the roof not falling in, the plumbing not leaking, etc., that there is an implied warranty that the house you sell someone is habitable. I.e. if you buy a house to live in it, you should be able to do so. When I did the paper 8 years ago, IAQ wasn't the issue it is today. And I wasn't looking for particular kinds of problems. Now I don't have access to the legal documents. So, if anyone knows of a case or citation, please let me know. Thanks. Craig DeWitt cdewitt@clemson.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 24 14:35:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA24596 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09142; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:24:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:20:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08784 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.iol.ie (mail2.mail.iol.ie [194.125.2.193]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08780 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from PENTIUM (dialup-044.dublin.iol.ie [194.125.41.44]) by mail.iol.ie Sendmail (v8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA10392 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:27:35 +0100 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:27:35 +0100 Message-Id: <199804241827.TAA10392@mail.iol.ie> X-Sender: oconnor@gpo.iol.ie X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Paul O'Connor Architects" Subject: GBlist: 50m Swimming Pool and Indoor Sports complex Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3077 Hello All, We are currently working on design proposals for a 50m Swimming Pool and indoor Sports complex in Ireland and would appreciate the collective advice of members of the list. Some of the problems/opportunites created by this project are; Large roof surfaces (solar, rainwater recycling, etc) Large internal volumes (space heating, air movement, high humidities, etc) Large mechanical services and plant (operation, off-peak use, excess heat, etc) Large bodies of warm water Lighting (glare, heat loss, etc) It is our intention to design a state-of-the-art complex which will incorporate passive and active energy solutions at every level. Ideas, direct information, sources of information or the names of specialist advisors would be greatly appreciated. Yours sincerely, Paul O'Connor MRIAI +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Paul O'Connor Architects, t: (+353 1) 8308856 3, St. Joseph's Court, f: (+353 1) 8302039 Prussia St., Dublin 7, e: oconnor@iol.ie Ireland h: http://ireland.iol.ie/~oconnor +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 24 15:22:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA25339 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11747; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:11:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:07:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA11304 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:07:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR03 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.159]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11300 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:07:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from steve - 208.253.186.252 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:14:23 -0700 From: "Steven L. Katz" To: Subject: GBlist: Monolithic Dome Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:19:26 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <082ee2314191848UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3078 We are seriously considering building a Monolithic Dome residence. It's strength, safety and energy efficiency are very appealing to us. But we haven't heard any feedback from the "Green" building community re: them. For those that are unfamiliar with them, they are thin-shelled concrete domes that are constructed in an innovative and very efficient way. An air form (made of a tough vinyl?, I think) is inflated like a balloon and the inside of it is sprayed with 3 inches of polyurethane foam. Rebar hangers are inserted into the hardened foam and the rebar is hung to specifications. Finally 3 inches of shotcrete is sprayed on top of the rebar. A cement floor is poured and you have a building that has an R value of around 60 and is virtually disaster-proof. Any comments? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 24 15:50:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA26875 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:50:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13277; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:39:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:35:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA12931 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12927 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:35:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.198.23.5] (uA1-a4.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.5]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA28687; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:42:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <082ee2314191848UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:51:01 -0400 To: "Steven L. Katz" , greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Monolithic Dome Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3079 >We are seriously considering building a Monolithic Dome residence. It's >strength, safety and energy efficiency are very appealing to us. But we >haven't heard any feedback from the "Green" building community re: them. > >For those that are unfamiliar with them, they are thin-shelled concrete >domes that are constructed in an innovative and very efficient way. An air >form (made of a tough vinyl?, I think) is inflated like a balloon and the >inside of it is sprayed with 3 inches of polyurethane foam. Rebar hangers >are inserted into the hardened foam and the rebar is hung to specifications. >Finally 3 inches of shotcrete is sprayed on top of the rebar. A cement floor >is poured and you have a building that has an R value of around 60 and is >virtually disaster-proof. > >Any comments? > Hi Steven, A couple of ideas come up for me: Does the inflated form become the exterior water/sun/insect/rodent barrier? If so, I am concerned about a plastic membrane forming a barrier to rodents and about UV degradation. If not, how are these jobs accomplished? I'm also confused by 3 inches of urethane and 3 inches of shotcrete providing R-60. Are they including the thermal mass effects of the shotcrete? If that is the case then the R-60 claim is very climate, conditioning mode specific - works about the same as higher r-value in hot climate cooling mode, but not in cold climate heating mode. You could have a gutter to collect rain that forms a spiral. Although I never designed or built an octagon or dome, I've remodeled and repaired a number over the years. Hard to make efficient use of space was my impression. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 24 15:53:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA26945 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:53:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13669; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:39:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13266 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:38:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from valis.olywa.net (olywa.net [205.163.58.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13256 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:38:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Chris ([207.225.237.33]) by valis.olywa.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-36370U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA3380 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:48:04 -0700 Message-ID: <005101bd6fb9$2ab24140$0200a8c0@Chris> Reply-To: "Christopher Kirk" From: "Christopher Kirk" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Monolithic Dome Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:42:49 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3080 Some people are undoubtedly going to piss and moan about the embodied energy of concrete in the Monolithic dome... my advice is to ignore them. With prejudice. A better argument might be that the manufacture of the vinyl and polyurethane isn't green, but no building system is perfect, and I think a reasoned green cost/benefit analysis would make the dome look pretty good. You would be building a structure whose lifetime will be, at worst, indefinite, and is impervious to earthquakes, tornadoes, hurricanes, ice-covered trees, and practically anything else you can think of. During this indefinite lifetime, it would be the most energy efficient structure around. If we're talking about sustainable building, in my opinion this thing fits the bill. What may be a concern, however, is indoor air quality. My feeling is that there may be human health issues with the foam insulation - yes, it's encased beneath several inches of shotcrete, but might there still be some pathways for offgassing into the interior of the dome? And, of course, the dome is tight enough that it requires fans for ventilation - IAQ should be carefully considered. If you're comfortable dealing with those issues, I say go for it! These things sound like a lot of fun! Christopher Kirk Olympia, WA -----Original Message----- From: Steven L. Katz To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Friday, April 24, 1998 12:19 PM Subject: GBlist: Monolithic Dome >We are seriously considering building a Monolithic Dome residence. It's >strength, safety and energy efficiency are very appealing to us. But we >haven't heard any feedback from the "Green" building community re: them. > >For those that are unfamiliar with them, they are thin-shelled concrete >domes that are constructed in an innovative and very efficient way. An air >form (made of a tough vinyl?, I think) is inflated like a balloon and the >inside of it is sprayed with 3 inches of polyurethane foam. Rebar hangers >are inserted into the hardened foam and the rebar is hung to specifications. >Finally 3 inches of shotcrete is sprayed on top of the rebar. A cement floor >is poured and you have a building that has an R value of around 60 and is >virtually disaster-proof. > >Any comments? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 24 17:38:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA28550 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:38:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19297; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:27:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:23:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA19037 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19033 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:23:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Cheetah (1Cust254.tnt29.sfo3.da.uu.net [208.255.80.254]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA03577; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804242130.OAA03577@italy.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: envdiv@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: Michelle Randall Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: UNHEALTHY hydronic radiant floor heating? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3081 John, What was the source of energy for running the pumps? Could the culprit have been natural gas escaping during operation?? Michelle At 08:20 AM 4/24/98 -0600, you wrote: >John: Further to the note of below, if they turned off the "heating system >pumps" perhaps they got headaches from the noise (either the pump or lack >of sound (vibration) isolators (especially if attached to wood framing members). > >In addition, I wonder it it may have been connected with enhanced outgassing >from all the admixtures (ie. air entrainment agents, water reducers, >plasticizers, sealants, etc.) of the concrete slab, if they had one. Were >these considered, isolated and ruled out? I also wonder, if in retrospect today >they think it was the (hydronic) radiant floor heating system? I assume it was >hydronic or perhaps was it electrical heating? Are you still in touch with >these people? Thanks for the anecdote. Jorg >***************************************************************************** >Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect >- in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. >- 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors >- college campus and office tower recofit under construction >- living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office >ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 >Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm >e-mail: >######################################################### >Jorg, >Can't help you with the Baubiology folks, but have met friends that refuse >to live in radiant water floor heated homes. Did once, didn't know the >nature of the heating system. Within no time, they each had persistent >splitting head aches in the morning. After many months, they discovered >how their house was heated. Knowing something of the subtler nature of >life's mysteries, they tried shutting off the heating system pumps. No >more headaches!! Moral: If you intend to explore this option, go live at >a >friends with system first. Could save a lot of headaches... > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Apr 24 20:48:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA01582 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:48:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA25179; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:38:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:33:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA24922 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:33:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA24917 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA22118 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:40:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199804231248_MC2-3ACE-4323@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:27:15 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: UNHEALTHY hydronic radiant floor heating? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3082 980424 2005est Jorg's points may well show the real reasons behind the problems expressed by John's friends. In addition, floor heat in my experience has tended to exist in very dry indoor environments. I cannot be sure, in the situations I am familiar with, whether the dryness was due to house or heating system. Is there a relationship here, sinus trouble, etc, cause & effect? Did the aforementioned headache sufferrers check out their problem medically? Dry heat, outside of Arizona, murders my sinuses and nasal passages. That is why one sees pans of water on radiators or near heat registers, or why humidifiers are used. Legionella (sp?) risk, hell. BTW, I find it hard to believe that anyone could live in a house for long & not know how it was heated. Did they think it came from the warm feelings of their neighbors? Did they pay utility bills? Many months?? And yet they knew enough about "possible causal relationships" to turn off the pumps? Uh huh. Once again, an anecdote stretches credibility on close examination. We are drifting away from science here, folks. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 25 03:32:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA07811 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA04825; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:17:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA04256 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA04237 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip215.efn.org [204.214.97.215]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA16134; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 00:22:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert Bolman" To: "Bruce Sullivan" Cc: "Green Building" Subject: GBlist: replacement for sheathing Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:50:42 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd7016$76c734c0$LocalHost@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3083 In presently designing a more conventional structure than the straw bale and earthen house that I'm just completing, one of the things that I'm most yearning for is something to replace plywood and OSB in sheathing and subflooring. I wish to avoid those products for their use of wood fiber and especially their use of icky toxic adhesives. It can't be too long before there's a straw panel that would replace OSB and plywood. I so want it to be fully non-toxic. Anybody know of anything yet? Robert Bolman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 25 08:59:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA09474 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:59:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10197; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:49:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:45:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09974 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:45:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09970 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17198; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 06:50:43 -0600 Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 06:50:42 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Robert Bolman Cc: Bruce Sullivan , Green Building Subject: Re: GBlist: replacement for sheathing In-Reply-To: <01bd7016$76c734c0$LocalHost@home.efn.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3084 Robert: We used local 2x6 T&G pine for our floor. No subfloor. Advantages and disadvantages. No OSB inside the house. For floor joists we used Space Joists, therefore no OSB in the manufactured versions. Both hemp and straw MDF board is available in the US, as you know. In some projects we did not use any sheathing for either the roof or walls.On the roof we used 1x4 nailing strips/perlins for metal roofing. On the walls we used 2.5" rigid board EPS Type 1 for the substrate for acrylic stucco and as a thermal break over the 2x6 studs @ 24" o/c. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Robert Bolman wrote: > > In presently designing a more conventional structure than the straw bale and > earthen house that I'm just completing, one of the things that I'm most > yearning for is something to replace plywood and OSB in sheathing and > subflooring. I wish to avoid those products for their use of wood fiber and > especially their use of icky toxic adhesives. > > It can't be too long before there's a straw panel that would replace OSB and > plywood. I so want it to be fully non-toxic. > > Anybody know of anything yet? > > Robert Bolman > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 25 09:12:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09555 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10609; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:01:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:57:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA10364 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10359 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:57:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ip20.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.39]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA39 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:05:07 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980425091828.006cfdd8@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:18:28 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Monolithic Dome In-Reply-To: <005101bd6fb9$2ab24140$0200a8c0@Chris> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id IAA10360 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3085 >What may be a concern, however, is indoor air quality.... The foam and the concrete present an interesting indoor air quality scenario for radon and water vapor. Concrete is surprisingly porous at the microscale. Ron Collé of NIST wrote a fascinating review of the topic in 1981. The report is so old that it's listed as NBS Technical Note 1139 "Radon Transport Through and Exhaltion From Building Materials: A review and Assessment". Copies should exist at the repository libraries established across the country. Al Tanner, retired from USGS, wrote extensively on related topics (for a publications list, see Linda Gundersen's USGS Radon website at http://sedwww.cr.usgs.gov:8080/radon/radonhome.html ). Depending upon the originating source of the materials that make up the concrete, radon could be a problem. Diffusion-limited transport from a completly enveloping source could lead to high concentrations, even in the absence of perceptible cracking. Even if the soil and the water supply are exonerated. At high enough radium concentrations in the concrete, you could be facing a gamma ray exposure risk. Your vendors may not appreciate it, but specifying a low radium content would be worthwhile. This was a hot topic in the Florida Radon Research Program in the early 90s, and they actually developed criteria and test methods. The indoor air group at EPA's lab in Research Triangle Park has a listing of all the reports (most of the reports, unfortunately, are not online). The FRRP also addressed the role of additives and plasticizers in controlling cracking and enfancing strength. Given the tightness of the construction, water vapor (from domestic water use, human habitation, diffusion from and through the concrete matrix and, at times, condensation) along with resulting dankness will be early signals. This could also affect your choice of finish materials and furnishings. Imaginative arrangements of thermal mass coupled to engineered fresh air slots could provide for air freshness while combatting negative pressurization. There are bound to be old tricks from the headier days of solar housing that could be brought to bear on this [Terry and Bion: any comments here?] Even if positive pressures are maintained, by the way, diffusion-limited transport could still be a problem. Although somewhat inelegant, a fan-assissted system could overpower the ventilation/depressurization problem easily. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 25 12:21:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15996 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:21:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14362; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:10:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:06:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14109 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:06:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14103 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:06:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.254.3.207] (1Cust207.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.207]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA16925; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804251613.JAA16925@germany.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: replacement for sheathing Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:13:02 -0700 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Robert Bolman" , "Bruce Sullivan" cc: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3086 Rob I have no direct experience with this product, but I know its used for structural sheathing. It's called Thermo-ply, it contains recylced material and it's made by Simplex. A short blurb and a link to their web site appears at: http://www.oikos.com/companies/simplex.html I'd be interested to hear the experience of anyone who has used it. Bruce S >In presently designing a more conventional structure than the straw bale and >earthen house that I'm just completing, one of the things that I'm most >yearning for is something to replace plywood and OSB in sheathing and >subflooring. I wish to avoid those products for their use of wood fiber and >especially their use of icky toxic adhesives. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 25 13:13:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16611 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:13:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15663; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:02:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:58:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15343 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15339 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:58:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21746 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:06:12 -0400 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-23-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.23]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA13551 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980425130256.006c9908@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:02:56 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Re:solar hot water costs In-Reply-To: <199804240600.CAA11824@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3087 Bruce replied re low cost solar hot water: >From: Bruce Sullivan >Subject: GBlist: Bargain solar hot water and radiant concerns > >Bion mentioned affordable solar water heaters. One such device appears in >the Oikos product gallery this month. Intended for DIYers, the packages >range from $900 to about $1600. This doesn't include a storage tank, >since the idea is to use an existing water heater. More info at: > > http://www.oikos.com/newproducts/index.html > >Bruce > > >>1998 price points are >> in the $900 to $1,200 range for an entry level system for >> family of three; yielding 40% HW solar fraction ~ 5yr payback This is a single collector, that is plumbed directly to an existing tank and won't work in freezing weather. My feeling about non-freeze protected systems in climates where it freezes is that sooner or later someone will forget to drain it and that will be the end of it. Also, it seems you would have to disable the lower electric element, leading to less available hot water when the sun doesn't shine. The low cost system uses a timer, which pumps water from the electric tank whenever the sun is supposed to shine -- a delta-T controller is extra. And the labor is free. I am being a bit snide, but the point is that this looks like a system for south Florida, and may make good sense there, but to blanketly say one can get solar DHW for $900 to $1200 is counter-productive, as it raises expectations unrealistically. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc. Montpelier VT USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 25 14:28:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA17205 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:28:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA17858; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:17:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:13:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA17576 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:13:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA17572 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:13:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA03907; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:19:12 -0700 Message-ID: <354228B2.32C5B72A@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:17:22 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Paul O'Connor Architects" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: 50m Swimming Pool and Indoor Sports complex References: <199804241827.TAA10392@mail.iol.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3088 Paul O'Connor Architects wrote: > Hello All, > > We are currently working on design proposals for a 50m Swimming Pool and > indoor Sports complex in Ireland and would appreciate the collective advice > of members of the list. > > Some of the problems/opportunites created by this project are; > > Large roof surfaces (solar, rainwater recycling, etc) The problem of a large roof surface is a large footprint. Opportunities here are to make up for this by incorporating a planted or living roof. Benefits here are improved water quality and increased mass. Staggering and varying roof planes could make for some interesting view/daylighting potential from the building interior. I think there is some good cultural precedence for earthen roofs as well. > Large internal volumes (space heating, air movement, high humidities, etc) In looking at pool building, indoor air quality and humidity issues I was interested in the work being done by University of Guelph and CREST Breathing Wall in the Canada Life Assurance building in Toronto information at: http://www.ists.ca/canlif.htm I don't know what the status of the work is but the complexity of a pool building creates an incredibly open system and it would be useful to look at closed system approaches for some benefit. This approach would not I imagine deal with much excess humidity however a closed system approach would look at both water and heat recovery as integrated to pool management. The other aspect of this is materials that can deal with humidity well. Conventionally this is either not done well or thoroughly (impervious surfaces concealing layers of degrading materials) or is done to excess with poor sound quality as a result. > Large mechanical services and plant (operation, off-peak use, excess heat, etc) > large bodies of warm water > Lighting (glare, heat loss, etc) Again daylighting and perhaps finding some balance between glare and making some usage of reflective potential of the water surface. > > > It is our intention to design a state-of-the-art complex which will > incorporate passive and active energy solutions at every level. Ideas, > direct information, sources of information or the names of specialist > advisors would be greatly appreciated. US Gov. did extensive work recently on pool energy issues which resulted in some software, etc. Perhaps someone on the list can remember who, where, etc. this might be. > > Best John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Apr 25 15:29:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17603 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:29:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA19660; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:18:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:14:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA19352 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:14:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR05 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.177]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19346 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:14:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from GFX-CH - 153.35.7.208 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:21:36 -0700 Message-ID: <001301bd707f$81d32d60$d0072399@GFX-CH> From: "carmine vasile" To: "Andrew M. Shapiro" , Cc: "Jim Vaughn" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:solar hot water costs Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:21:21 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3089 Andy replied: "I am being a bit snide, but the point is that this looks like a system for south Florida, and may make good sense there, but to blanketly say one can get solar DHW for $900 to $1200 is counter-productive, as it raises expectations unrealistically." Since the system Bruce mentioned is intended for "DIYers", and the packages range from $900 to about $1600, wastewater heat recycling could be included for an additional investment of 15% to 20%. In fact, more heat was recovered from drain water than was produced by an existing solar water heater in a field test of GFX [http://oikos.com/gfx/ ] in the Northeast. CMHC's Toronto Healthy houses used GFX to extend the range of solar DHW. [See whttp://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca ] Combining wastewater heat recovery with "affordable solar water heaters" will enable "solar DHW" systems to be used in northern climates and help alleviate some of Andy's concerns. >>===================================================== >>Dr. Carmine Vasile, CEO Voice: 516-758-6271 >>WaterFilm Energy Inc. Fax: 516-758-0438 >>P.O. Box 48 Email: gfx-ch@msn.com >>Oakdale, NY 11769 Web: http://oikos.com/gfx/ >>===================================================== -----Original Message----- From: Andrew M. Shapiro To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Saturday, April 25, 1998 1:08 PM Subject: GBlist: Re:solar hot water costs > >Bruce replied re low cost solar hot water: > >>From: Bruce Sullivan >>Subject: GBlist: Bargain solar hot water and radiant concerns >> >>Bion mentioned affordable solar water heaters. One such device appears in >>the Oikos product gallery this month. Intended for DIYers, the packages >>range from $900 to about $1600. This doesn't include a storage tank, >>since the idea is to use an existing water heater. More info at: >> >> http://www.oikos.com/newproducts/index.html >> >>Bruce >> >> >>>1998 price points are >>> in the $900 to $1,200 range for an entry level system for >>> family of three; yielding 40% HW solar fraction ~ 5yr payback > >This is a single collector, that is plumbed directly to an existing tank >and won't work in freezing weather. My feeling about non-freeze protected >systems in climates where it freezes is that sooner or later someone will >forget to drain it and that will be the end of it. Also, it seems you >would have to disable the lower electric element, leading to less available >hot water when the sun doesn't shine. The low cost system uses a timer, >which pumps water from the electric tank whenever the sun is supposed to >shine -- a delta-T controller is extra. And the labor is free. >I am being a bit snide, but the point is that this looks like a system for >south Florida, and may make good sense there, but to blanketly say one can >get solar DHW for $900 to $1200 is counter-productive, as it raises >expectations unrealistically. > >Andy Shapiro >Energy Balance, Inc. >Montpelier VT USA > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 26 07:51:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA26406 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 07:51:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA09761; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 07:40:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 26 Apr 1998 07:36:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA09511 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 07:35:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA09468 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 07:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 1HLTa02369 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 07:30:20 -0400 (EDT) From: F Unger Message-ID: <4fe1818b.35431ace@aol.com> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 07:30:20 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF fields Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3090 On the subject of EMF's, power tools, cancer, etc. Around here, virtually everyone in the building trades is wearing a cell phone strapped to their belt. Lately Nextel is really taking over with their combo phone, pager, radio unit. When I bring mine into the office, when it is communicating it generates some sort of electrical field strong enough to make the speaker on my regular land line phone make loud clicking noises from five feet away. (when it is hung up). Rather than general studies in power tool users, perhaps we should be looking for evidence of cancer of the left hip and butt in the construction industry. In all serious though, what is the story on the fields given off by these things. They must be pretty strong. A general question: while we may debate the effects of the low level exposure, is there any level of EMF exposure that is conclusively proven and acknowledged to be unhealthy by the medical community? And a practical question: How can we change our building practice to generally reduce exposure to these fields for our clients? Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 26 13:06:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA29837 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:06:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16367; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:55:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:50:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16096 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16092 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:50:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa17.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.146]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA11977 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35436655.5429@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:52:37 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Another ubiquitouis newsbrief Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3091 At the request of one un-named member of this list, I will once again offer the rest of you a glimpse of a news items that might be of interest to a few of you. This article is in the NYTIMES, today's entry is about global warming: Real threat or just so much hot air? ********************************************************** WASHINGTON -- Industry opponents of a treaty to fight global warming have drafted an ambitious proposal to spend millions of dollars to convince the public that a 1992 environmental accord is based on shaky science. Among their ideas is a campaign to recruit scientists who share the industry's views of climate science and to train them in public relations so they can help convince journalists, politicians and the public that the risk of global warming is too uncertain to justify controls on greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide that trap the sun's heat near Earth. http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/sci-global-warming.html Bruce, The other article is no longer available. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 26 16:06:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA02474 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 16:06:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23055; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:56:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:52:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA22776 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22769 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:51:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PkB00433; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:49:28 EDT To: FUnger@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:47:48 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF fields Message-ID: <19980426.124749.3438.0.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <4fe1818b.35431ace@aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-7,13-14,17-18,21-26 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Samantha L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3092 >On the subject of EMF's, power tools, cancer, etc. > >Around here, virtually everyone in the building trades is wearing a >cell phone good point Fred, a while back i had heard that there is an increase in brain tumors related to cell phones and cordless phones as well. i dont know what evidence was sighted, but it sounds plausible. seems that if this is a strong enough cause, we will see a rush of related medical problems in the next few years. i have personally avoided this craze, so there might be a few "controls" out there. I am aware that the alternative health community is highly aware of EMF effects and has many suggestions in dealing with them, but dont know how much of this has filtered into the mainstream yet. again- the book i mentioned The Body Electric, has much scientific research on this issue- (maybe i should take time to read it in order to contribute some of that info to the group?) Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 26 17:25:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA04402 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:25:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25611; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:11:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA25230 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:10:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA25221 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip28.ivnet.net [206.101.73.188]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00744; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:16:08 -0700 Message-ID: <3542429C.B0D56DC3@ivnet.net> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:07:56 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Sullivan CC: Robert Bolman , Green Building Subject: Re: GBlist: replacement for sheathing References: <199804251613.JAA16925@germany.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3093 Bruce Sullivan wrote: > > Rob > > I have no direct experience with this product, but I know its used for > structural sheathing. It's called Thermo-ply, it contains recylced > material and it's made by Simplex. A short blurb and a link to their web > site appears at: > > http://www.oikos.com/companies/simplex.html > > I'd be interested to hear the experience of anyone who has used it. > > Bruce S > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 > Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 > Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ I've used Thermoply on few jobs. There are two types: red and blue. One is for framing 16" o.c. and those sheets are 49" wide. Its designed to be overlapped. The slightly thicker stuff is for 24" framing, and butts together. It promotes itself as having an R-value, but it really only develops this if its used with an air space. When nailed according to its schedule, which is about 3" o.c., the stuff has good shear strength. They say that its ability to resist air infiltration is comparable to Tyvek (because it's thin, kinda flexible, and nailed so much), but I haven't seen testing results. The recycled fiber aspect is good, its the only shear sheathing I know that uses 100% recycled fiber. I assume its a typical exterior glue. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 26 17:51:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA04716 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA26625; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:40:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:36:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA26297 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:36:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA26293 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip28.ivnet.net [206.101.73.188]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00953; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:41:58 -0700 Message-ID: <3543A9AC.F927E007@ivnet.net> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 14:39:56 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Steven L. Katz" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Monolithic Dome References: <082ee2314191848UPIMSSMTPUSR03@email.msn.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3094 Steven L. Katz wrote: > > An air > form (made of a tough vinyl?, I think) is inflated like a balloon and the > inside of it is sprayed with 3 inches of polyurethane foam. Rebar hangers > are inserted into the hardened foam and the rebar is hung to specifications. > Finally 3 inches of shotcrete is sprayed on top of the rebar. A cement floor > is poured and you have a building that has an R value of around 60 and is > virtually disaster-proof. > > Any comments? > >3" of Urethane foam and 3" of shotcrete is highly unlikely to yeild an R-value of 60. Seems like R-values in the 20's is more likely. I'd be scared of anyone feeding me a line of BS like that. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma OR ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 26 20:49:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA07512 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03588; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:39:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:35:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA03269 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:35:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03265 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 1WQBa02743 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:42:00 +2000 (EDT) From: F Unger Message-ID: Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:42:00 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: replacement for sheathing Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3095 There is a product called thermoply used for sheathing in the real lousy low end of the modular home industry that looks to me like glorified cardboard. Don't know if it's the same stuff, but I'd rather go with metal hurricane straps and foam than depend on that stuff. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 26 20:56:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA07577 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:56:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03966; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:45:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:42:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA03727 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:42:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03723 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.201.10] (usr2a10.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.10]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA27116; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:49:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3542429C.B0D56DC3@ivnet.net> References: <199804251613.JAA16925@germany.it.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 20:50:08 -0400 To: Bruce From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: replacement for sheathing Cc: Bruce Sullivan , Robert Bolman , Green Building Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3096 At 1:07 PM -0700 4/25/98, Bruce wrote: (about Thermo-Ply) >I assume it's a typical exterior glue. Actually, I believe that the glue used is a polyvinyl alcohol, which is significantly less toxic and phenol formaldehyde. It also has wax to resist moisture, and a thin foil facing. Nadav Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Apr 26 23:31:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA09257 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 23:31:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08864; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 23:20:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 26 Apr 1998 23:16:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08611 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 23:16:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stan.lcc.net (secure.lcc.net [207.70.172.248]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08606 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 23:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lcc.net (hunt-pri1-a41.lcc.net [207.70.180.41]) by stan.lcc.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id WAA11236 for ; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:26:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3543FC61.A8CA6705@lcc.net> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:32:49 -0500 From: Kim Travis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GBlist Subject: GBlist: 50M Pool Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3097 Hello All, > > We are currently working on design proposals for a 50m Swimming Pool and > indoor Sports complex in Ireland and would appreciate the collective advice > of members of the list. > I am working on designing a straw bale building for a 20'x50' pool. While this is much smaller, here are some of the things that I plan to incorporate. 1. I am using several solar tube style skylights. They give a difused light in the day time and let you turn the electric lights out. 2. Strategically place windows that shine on a black bottomed pool, with insulated shutters that close at night or when the water is too warm. The dark bottom of the pool helps the sun heat the water. 3. An interior design that absorbs sound. In our case it will look like a cavern, allowing me to use straw bales covered with adobe plaster on the walls and ceiling. Also allows for privacy for the hot tub and to put the equipment closer to the pool. Well that is all that I have to share. Hope it helps. Kim Travis The Rose Colored Forest ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 07:21:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA12132 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA21499; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:10:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:06:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA21165 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:06:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA21161 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:06:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 2806 invoked from network); 27 Apr 1998 11:13:53 -0000 Received: from ah013.du.pipex.com (HELO ) (193.130.247.13) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 27 Apr 1998 11:13:53 -0000 Message-ID: <354456F9.3DE4@dial.pipex.com> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:59:21 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Reply-To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bion D. Howard" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Cost-effective Solar -- Not An Oxymoron References: <3.0.32.19980422120318.00730970@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3098 Bion D. Howard wrote: > Note on evacuated tube collectors: > Could perform well if matched to an efficient load, but in the > monitored examples in the NSDN (1979-1984), the Evac tube arrays were > mis-matched to over-engineered heating systems, thermally leaky > storage, poor controls, and had other systematic problems -- such as > chronic mixing of solar heat with auxiliary heat (big no-no) -- > reducing their likelihood of realizing their potential. This is very much my experience of applications in Britain. The problem is, sorting it out adds to the cost - both in consultants' fees and (usually) in retrofit/replacement hardware plus installation costs. In Britain at least, thermal solar collection needs to be optimised or there's no point at all (Greeks, Israelis and Floridans have it easy on this one...), and getting people to pay the additional initial costs when they don't really understand why (and someone else usually is telling them they don't need to) is rather difficult. Mark Bigland-Pritchard hyphen@dial.pipex.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 08:42:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA12770 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:42:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24096; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:32:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:26:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA23787 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:26:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23782 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:26:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.91] (uc26.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.91]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA07145; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:34:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4fe1818b.35431ace@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:37:57 -0400 To: F Unger , greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF fields Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3099 >On the subject of EMF's, power tools, cancer, etc. > >Around here, virtually everyone in the building trades is wearing a cell phone >strapped to their belt. Lately Nextel is really taking over with their combo >phone, pager, radio unit. When I bring mine into the office, when it is >communicating it generates some sort of electrical field strong enough to make >the speaker on my regular land line phone make loud clicking noises from five >feet away. (when it is hung up). > >Rather than general studies in power tool users, perhaps we should be looking >for evidence of cancer of the left hip and butt in the construction industry. > >In all serious though, what is the story on the fields given off by these >things. They must be pretty strong. > >A general question: while we may debate the effects of the low level exposure, >is there any level of EMF exposure that is conclusively proven and >acknowledged to be unhealthy by the medical community? > >And a practical question: How can we change our building practice to generally >reduce exposure to these fields for our clients? > >Fred Unger I haven't kept good track of the research since the early 90's, but from what I knew then, the medical and physics community agrees that if the power density is high enough to cook the cells, then it is a health threat. For this effect we have the evidence our microwaves. Other than that, there is no general agreement on health effects from EMF's. The health effects in studies conducted before the early 90's, (formost in my memory are the Leper and Wertheimer, NYS studies and some studies done by an Australian physician) were linked to levels that were far below that needed to raise cell temperature significantly, and were further linked to the magnetic component, rather than the electric component of the filed. The hypothesis I liked best from the literature back then was that low levels of low frequency interupted intra or intercell electro-chemical communications. In that case, power density is largely irrelevent and there may be no dose-response curve as such. Frequency and wave-addition would be more likely to be important. The evidence up til that time was provocative. Since then, there have been a number of publications which conclude that there's really no good evidnece to support health effects, including a position paper from the American Physical Society (APS was quite active initially, publishing a good review of the research and holding a symposium or two. From my perspective as a member back then, the paper saying no evidence for effects seem discontinuous with what was published in the newsletter from the Physics and Society committee). I've looked at the literature for the past 7 years or so on an erratic, not systematic basis and do not feel informed enough about it to judge it. In my lifetime, I have seen evidence overlooked, attacked or restated for a variety of political, economic and personal reasons. I saw it happen to some of the EMF work done before the early 90's. I do not know whether that has happened or not since then. Cellular phones give the big dose when they are transmitting. It might be a good study, those who use cellular phones and those who don't. A cleanr one, with a longer data set would be to study men who have always shaved with either electric razors or blades. An electric razor produces a strong and complex field. I have come to like blades. Although it was the EMF stuff that got me thinking abut it, it was being a man and starting every day with a razor sharp, stainless blade pressed to my throat that felt right. Every moment, no matter how ordinary it may seem is a leap of faith. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 09:50:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13607 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27303; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:35:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26992 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:35:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26987 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:35:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA44922; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:39:46 -0600 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 07:39:45 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Kim Travis Cc: GBlist Subject: GBlist: SunPipe & HRV for 50M Pool In-Reply-To: <3543FC61.A8CA6705@lcc.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3100 You said:"1. I am using several solar tube style skylights. They give a difused light in the day time and let you turn the electric lights out." _________________________________________________________________________ Kim: In this application, and based on experience, special details will be required to avoid mositure (and perhaps fly) penetration. Annual cleanout may be very difficult if located over the pool. You may be well advised also to use sunscoops. Lights will stay on unless the staff are educated and show initiative. We like the SunPipe type from Chicago. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 10:21:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14105 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:21:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29447; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:11:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:07:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28657 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:06:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28646 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.47] (blf47.acadia.net [205.217.217.47]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA11549 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:14:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:14:47 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Monolithic Dome Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3101 >From the description, I'd be concerned about: - optimistic claims of R-value; - without careful detailing, domes leak like sieves; - you fit your life into a structural system, instead of the structural system fitting around your life; - the acoustics could be terrible; - outgassing and longevity of the vinyl liner; - how do you remodel or add on? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 11:00:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14639 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:00:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01519; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:49:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:45:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01157 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:45:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01153 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:45:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.58]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 8673100 ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:51:22 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980427105016.0069602c@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:50:16 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: Swimming Pools In-Reply-To: <199804260600.CAA05019@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3102 John Salmen wrote: >US Gov. did extensive work recently on pool energy issues which resulted in some >software, etc. Perhaps someone on the list can remember who, where, etc. this might >be. > The program is called RSPEC and it originated out of the Denver US DOE regional office. The software is designed to look at the effectiveness of pool covers and solar water heating systems. The funding for the program expired a couple of years ago but much of the results are available. Visit the web site at http://www.eren.doe.gov/rspec/ to get fact sheets, information or download the software. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 11:14:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14945 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02576; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:03:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:59:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02094 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:59:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.rapidramp.net (mail.incredibyte.net [207.99.72.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02089 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804271459.KAA02089@solstice.crest.org> Received: from default [209.58.6.162] by mail.rapidramp.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.02) id A1E842270268; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:19:04 EST Reply-To: From: "Office of Sustainable Design & Construction" To: Subject: GBlist: Books to Recycle Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:06:44 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3103 I thought some green building list-ers may have some thoughts on this: To My "Green" Friends and Colleagues, Imagine taking 500,000 books from your local library system and hauling them off to the land fill. What a waste! But this is the current plan by one of my "Green Housekeeping" clients unless we can help. My "Green Housekeeping" client is a major public library system on the East Coast with 59 locations. Periodically they must cull their book collection to make room for new books which are constantly being published. This year, the library is culling approximately 500,000 books! The books are best sellers, fiction, non-fiction, classics, reference, etc. Some of the books are old, but most are in good condition. The majority are in English, although there are books in several language. What I am trying to do is to help them find a "home" for the books and to keep them out of the landfill. Yes the landfill. It was a surprise for me to learn that books, due to their binding cannot be recycled without cutting the books apart -- something the library cannot afford to do. But these are good books and have enormous literary value. Perhaps you know of a school or library system that could benefit from the books????? Perhaps in a financially strapped inner city or rural area????? Perhaps overseas in a third world country. Perhaps you have other ideas or have other friends or colleagues that can help????? Not only would the recipient of the books benefit, but it would benefit the environment by keeping the books out of the landfill. Depending on the recipient (i.e. for-profit versus non-profit), the library may want some compensation for the books, but money is not the primary issue. Either way, the library would like for the recipient to take all of the books and handle any shipping costs associated with shipping them. Please let me know your thoughts as soon as possible. Thanks. Steve ============================================ Steve Ashkin Rochester Midland Corporation Tel: 716 / 336-2308 Fax: 716 / 336-2357 EMail: SteveAshkin@Compuserve.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 11:24:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA15170 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:24:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03495; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:10:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03109 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:10:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MAINE.maine.edu (maine.maine.edu [130.111.39.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03103 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:10:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from blumbra.umfacad.maine.edu(130.111.195.108) by MAINE.maine.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Mon, 27 Apr 98 11:16:27 EDT Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980427111600.00795260@mail.caps.maine.edu> X-Sender: blumbr71@mail.caps.maine.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:16:00 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Bryan Subject: GBlist: test (ignore) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3104 test ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 11:33:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA15275 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:33:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04401; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:22:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:18:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03887 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:18:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03882 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:18:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.40]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 8698900 ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:24:33 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980427112328.0069592c@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:23:28 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: 50m Swimming Pool and Indoor Sports complex Cc: "Paul O'Connor Architects" In-Reply-To: <199804250600.CAA02578@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3105 Paul O'Connor wrote: >We are currently working on design proposals for a 50m Swimming Pool and >indoor Sports complex in Ireland and would appreciate the collective advice >of members of the list. > >Some of the problems/opportunites created by this project are; >Large roof surfaces (solar, rainwater recycling, etc) >Large internal volumes (space heating, air movement, high humidities, etc) >Large mechanical services and plant (operation, off-peak use, excess heat, etc) >Large bodies of warm water >Lighting (glare, heat loss, etc) > >It is our intention to design a state-of-the-art complex which will >incorporate passive and active energy solutions at every level. Ideas, >direct information, sources of information or the names of specialist >advisors would be greatly appreciated. > I've been attempting to deal with the issues surrounding indoor pools from an energy perspective for many years. Mechanically there seem to be three types of air heating systems, push/pull, heat recovery and dehumidification. The push/pull type is where you dump a lot of heat in and exhaust a lot of air out, this keeps humidity levels within a tolerable range. Heat recovery is the same a s push pull except about 70% of the heat in the exhaust air is recovered. Dehumidification involves mechanical cooling and humidity removal. The most popular system in my area is dehumidification (PoolPak in made locally). Most of the push/pull systems in older facilities have been replaced with this type of system. This type of system can provide excellent indoor conditions but it requires a great deal of maintenance and is very expensive to operate (energy and maintenance). The energy costs are lower than the standard push/pull system and this is how they were justified. One local system uses a push/pull system with a pool cover placed on the pool every day. This allows the ventilation (exhaust) to be shut down during the time the cover is in place. This combination is less costly to operate than the dehumidification system (been told that you can't use a pool cover with a dehumidification system because it cuts off the heat source). The heat recovery system offers the best combination of low operating costs and fairly reasonable installation costs. The push/pull is the lowest first cost, dehumidification is the highest (on a recent job the cost of a PoolPak system was over $300,000 vs about $100,000 for heat recovery system). For this project we concluded that the lowest operating cost was a heat recovery system using a pool cover with an unglazed solar hot water system providing a portion of the pool water heating (natural gas boiler to supply remainder and quick recovery when draining the pool). We projected a reduction in energy costs from $52,000/year to $12,000/year. First costs were reduced by about $130,000 and the client did not go for it. Why? Because the dehumidification system will provide some measure of comfort in extreme summer heat and humidity conditions. We figured that there 14 days per year when indoor comfort conditions would exceed 55% RH and/or 85 degrees F. This would occur during the period of least usage. Fear of loosing members because of comfort was their reasoning to install the more costly system. There is more to the story but I've ranted enough. If anyone else has been dealing with these issues I would love to hear from you as well. Mr. O'Connor, if you would be so kind, please share what you find out and the results of your ultimate design. I should be very interested. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 11:35:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA15327 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:35:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04600; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:24:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:20:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04085 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04076 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LvP00431; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:26:18 EDT To: ddc1@rapidramp.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:29:32 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Books to Recycle Message-ID: <19980427.112935.6630.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199804271459.KAA02089@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6,8-13 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3106 Hi, Suggestions - contact the RIF (reading is fundamental) program or perhaps one of the educational programs at the UN. Also, you might try contacting the Dept. of Education in your home state and ask it they have some sort of outlet or perhaps a joint initiative with other states. I agree with you - this is an appalling waste of fine books. There are probably places in the country or the world that would see this as a godsend. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 12:16:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16336 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08034; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:06:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:02:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA07615 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:02:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07611 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ip16.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.35]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA154 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:09:29 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980427122257.006d03dc@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:22:57 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Books to Recycle In-Reply-To: <199804271459.KAA02089@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3107 >Imagine taking 500,000 books from your local library system and hauling >them off to the land fill. What a waste! But this is the current plan by >one of my "Green Housekeeping" clients unless we can help. Steve: If nothing else, I would think that the Peace Corps types would welcome a mother lode of reading materials... Not sure where the inroads would start, though. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 12:25:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16575 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:25:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08869; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:14:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:11:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08401 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08391 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:10:51 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MZY00444; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:10:15 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:27:46 -0500 Subject: GBlist: sbtauto: Re: solar hot water costs Message-ID: <19980427.112605.3670.0.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,5-6,9-16,18-77 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3108 Just an amendment: A good quality American Energy Technology (AET) drainback system that is suitable for cold climates, offers a 80 gallon storage and will serve a family of four costs nearly $2000.00 just for the hardware. Highly recommend the product and the technology and I agree, let's not paint an inaccurate picture about the costs. Renewable/sustainable usually is not cheap. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.sbtdesigns.com On Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:02:56 -0400 "Andrew M. Shapiro" writes: > >Bruce replied re low cost solar hot water: > >>From: Bruce Sullivan >>Subject: GBlist: Bargain solar hot water and radiant concerns >> >>Bion mentioned affordable solar water heaters. One such device >appears in >>the Oikos product gallery this month. Intended for DIYers, the >packages >>range from $900 to about $1600. This doesn't include a storage tank, >>since the idea is to use an existing water heater. More info at: >> >> http://www.oikos.com/newproducts/index.html >> >>Bruce >> >> >>>1998 price points are >>> in the $900 to $1,200 range for an entry level >system for >>> family of three; yielding 40% HW solar fraction ~ >5yr payback > >This is a single collector, that is plumbed directly to an existing >tank >and won't work in freezing weather. My feeling about non-freeze >protected >systems in climates where it freezes is that sooner or later someone >will >forget to drain it and that will be the end of it. Also, it seems >you >would have to disable the lower electric element, leading to less >available >hot water when the sun doesn't shine. The low cost system uses a >timer, >which pumps water from the electric tank whenever the sun is supposed >to >shine -- a delta-T controller is extra. And the labor is free. >I am being a bit snide, but the point is that this looks like a system >for >south Florida, and may make good sense there, but to blanketly say one >can >get solar DHW for $900 to $1200 is counter-productive, as it raises >expectations unrealistically. > >Andy Shapiro >Energy Balance, Inc. >Montpelier VT USA > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > --------- End forwarded message ---------- _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 14:06:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19303 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:06:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14599; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:50:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14269 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:50:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14264 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:50:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.67.44 (pm1-12.hoosier.net [206.106.67.44]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA11145; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:57:44 -0500 Message-ID: <3544809A.2941@bloomington.in.us> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:56:59 +0000 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ddc1@rapidramp.net CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Books to Recycle References: <199804271459.KAA02089@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3109 I know of at least two librarie systems around here who have periodic used book sales. One has a sale every week, the other every 2-3 months. They are really popular, sometimes you can get a bag full for a buck. Seems like a good way to raise a bit of money and fine new homes for books. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 14:28:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19684 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:28:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15794; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:17:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:13:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15488 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.rapidramp.net (mail.incredibyte.net [207.99.72.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15484 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:13:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804271813.OAA15484@solstice.crest.org> Received: from default [209.58.6.160] by mail.rapidramp.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.02) id AF674A100286; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:33:11 EST Reply-To: From: "Office of Sustainable Design & Construction" To: Subject: GBlist: Books Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:20:54 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3110 Thank you for all the helpful responses -- I just wanted to say that this library system does have regular book sales and has looked into some of the avenues suggested -- problem often is in transporation. Just didn't want anyone to think the libraries weren't making an effort -=----- thanks again. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 19:13:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA26414 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02556; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:58:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02201 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:58:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stan.lcc.net (secure.lcc.net [207.70.172.248]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02185 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:57:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lcc.net (hunt-pri3-a39.lcc.net [207.70.180.135]) by stan.lcc.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id SAA29501 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:08:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3545113A.7562FB3A@lcc.net> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:14:02 -0500 From: Kim Travis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GBlist Subject: GBlist: Library books Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3111 To Steve Ashton, Depending on the recipient (i.e. for-profit versus non-profit), the library may want some compensation for the books, but money is not the primary issue. Either way, the library would like for the recipient to take all of the books and handle any shipping costs associated with shipping them. I am very active in the LVA and we hold book sales twice a year here in rural Texas. Please contact Literacy Volunteers of America in your area and tell them. We always need money and if the money goes to help those that help people learn to read, maybe so many books won't need new homes. Kim Travis The Rose Colored Forest ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 19:35:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA26782 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:35:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA03561; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:24:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:20:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA03319 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:20:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03315 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([194.168.100.23]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA6202; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:27:57 +0100 Message-ID: <35450E65.FD4186CA@which.net> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:01:58 +0100 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ddc1@rapidramp.net CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Books to Recycle X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199804271459.KAA02089@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3112 In the UK the libraries just put their old books out for sale at low prices. They just write the price on the inside cover, put them on a "books for sale" shelf and regular customers just take them away. Simple. Malcolm Scott Office of Sustainable Design & Construction wrote: > I thought some green building list-ers may have some thoughts on this: > > My "Green Housekeeping" client is a major public library system on the > East > Coast with 59 locations. Periodically they must cull their book > collection > to make room for new books which are constantly being published. This > > year, the library is culling approximately 500,000 books! The books > are > best sellers, fiction, non-fiction, classics, reference, etc. Some of > the > books are old, but most are in good condition. The majority are in > English, although there are books in several language. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 20:02:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA27096 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05017; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:51:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:47:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA04581 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:47:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aries.wise.net (aries.wise.net [206.29.198.135]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA04573 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:47:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.wise.net (actually host 206.29.198.73) by aries.wise.net with SMTP (XT-PP); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:51:09 -0600 Received: from dotnetgw3-Message_Server by mail3.wise.net with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:48:53 -0600 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:50:27 -0600 From: Thomas Hartman To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Efficient well pump Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3113 Can anyone recommend an energy efficient well pump? The well is estimated to be a 250' deep and is to be sized for six households. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 23:16:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA00895 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA13365; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:05:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:01:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA12969 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:00:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA12965 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:00:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.100.174.173] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.0); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:09:14 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:solar hot water costs Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:07:23 -0700 x-sender: bruce@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1318414739-3915986@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3114 Hal RightO! Homemade batch heaters win the cost-effectiveness prize. Although this method isn't for everyone, any eager DIYer could succeed. The biggest freeze risk is the pipes leading to and from the collector/tank. Some people in colder climates may choose to drain them in winter. The Oregon State Univ Extension Energy Program has plans for building a simple batch heater from an old electric water heater tank. "Batch Water Heater Construction and Installation Manual", I think. I believe they charge a dollor or two for postage. You can contact them at 541-737-3004. Bruce S > An integrated passive solar hot water heater built with two hot water >heater tanks in an insulated black painted box in the attic under a >skylight in the roof can be built for under a $1,000 by the energetic >owner-builder. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Apr 27 23:18:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA00905 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:18:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA13485; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:07:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:03:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA13093 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA13083 for ; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:02:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA29406; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:08:31 -0700 Message-ID: <354547C8.FAECB0CF@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:06:48 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: footprint impact Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3115 I wanted to open a discussion about strategies for minimizing the impact of a buildings footprint. My specific concern is a foundation system that will minimize impact on a large tree root system. The approach I've used before in allowing for natural drainage flows is a pier supported structural slab on grade or elevated wood construction on piers but I want to add the potential for positive aeration and the potential for some irrigation. The basic assembly I am considering is undisturbed soil aeration pipes in a gravel layer with end risers as wind scoops eps foam insulation structural conc. floor with perimeter as thickened beam support The building I am planning for is a three story residential involving masonry wall and floor construction so the pier supported loads will be substantial but the area I am protecting is really the topsoil beneath the building area. Any thoughts on alternative strategies or other aspects that need to be considered. The building envelope is definitely outside the drip zone of the tree but not outside the root zone. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 28 00:20:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA01739 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15542; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:03:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA15152 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:02:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mag1.magmacom.com (mag1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.210]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15147 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (port18.magma.ca [206.191.5.18]) by mag1.magmacom.com (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA15717; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:10:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804280410.AAA15717@mag1.magmacom.com> Reply-To: <@magma.ca> From: "Stephen Thwaites" To: "Kim Travis" , "GBlist" Subject: Re: GBlist: 50M Pool Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:09:56 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3116 ---------- > From: Kim Travis > To: GBlist > Subject: GBlist: 50M Pool > Date: April 26, 1998 11:32 PM > > Hello All, > > > > We are currently working on design proposals for a 50m Swimming Pool > and > indoor Sports complex in Ireland and would appreciate the collective > advice > > of members of the list. > > > I am working on designing a straw bale building for a 20'x50' pool. > While this is much smaller, here are some of the things that I plan to > incorporate. > 1. I am using several solar tube style skylights. They give a difused > light in the day time and let you turn the electric lights out. If this bldg. is in a cool/cold climate - be careful of condensation on those solar tubes. Everyone i've seen is a thermal disaster - worse than a skylight. On the other hand you may be able to detail them to drip into the pool....... > 2. Strategically place windows that shine on a black bottomed pool, with > insulated shutters that close at night or when the water is too warm. > The dark bottom of the pool helps the sun heat the water. None of the solar pool heating algorithms i've seen ask for the colour of the pool bottom - i think this is because water is a solar infrared absorber BTW - unglazed polymer solar heaters are a time tested COST EFFECTIVE way to heat a pool (in or outdoor) Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ottawa, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 28 00:21:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA01758 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:21:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15752; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:10:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:05:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA15282 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15267 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:04:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id XAA0000008696; Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:12:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980428041454.00717c64@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:14:54 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: water conditioners Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3117 The subject of water conditioning, an old one is of regular interest to me simply because I have yet to find the 'right' gadget/system. I am very interested in seeing comments about the numerous types that were listed here some months ago, several of which were going to be purchased and tried out. I am specifically interested in a system that will deal with the various 'hard' elements in water ie calcium, magnesium, silca etc. The ones that were mentioned were: Panther Water Stabilizer, Catalytic 1000, CareFree Conditioner, GMX Magnetic, and ClearWave. It is not clear to me that each of these deals with hard water, but I would appreciate comments on all of them from people who are using them or know of folks who are. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 28 02:45:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA02710 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 02:45:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA20316; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 02:34:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Apr 1998 02:30:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA20022 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 02:29:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA20017 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 02:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p20.ltec.net [206.158.213.30]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA30935; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 01:30:49 -0500 Message-ID: <35458651.46F158A1@navix.net> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 01:33:39 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Hartman CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Efficient well pump References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3118 Thomas Hartman wrote: > Can anyone recommend an energy efficient well pump? If you're interested in the long term efficiency in energy use and aren't worried about initial cost for what you need, then have you considered a solar well pump? Their prices aren't too bad from what I've seen. If you email: Windy Dankoff they can help you with your specifics and what you will need if you choose this route. Sharon Eby-Martin ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 28 08:38:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA04875 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:38:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA29317; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:24:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:18:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA29038 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:18:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29034 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.42] (ua9.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.42]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA29755; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:25:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <354547C8.FAECB0CF@cow-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:34:05 -0400 To: John Salmen , greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: footprint impact Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3119 >I wanted to open a discussion about strategies for minimizing the impact >of a buildings footprint. My specific concern is a foundation system >that will minimize impact on a large tree root system. The approach I've >used before in allowing for natural drainage flows is a pier supported >structural slab on grade or elevated wood construction on piers but I >want to add the potential for positive aeration and the potential for >some irrigation. The basic assembly I am considering is >undisturbed soil >aeration pipes in a gravel layer with end risers as wind scoops >eps foam insulation >structural conc. floor with perimeter as thickened beam support >The building I am planning for is a three story residential involving >masonry wall and floor construction so the pier supported loads will be >substantial but the area I am protecting is really the topsoil beneath >the building area. >Any thoughts on alternative strategies or other aspects that need to be >considered. The building envelope is definitely outside the drip zone of >the tree but not outside the root zone. > >John Salmen >TERRAIN E.D.S. I like this line of thinking John. Piers are what come to mind for me, too. In terms of aeration, my experience is that a buildings mine air from the soil by a number of mechanisms (stack, wind, shifting water table levels, low pressure fronts in combination with rain, mechanical systems). However, no rain or sunlight changes the microclimates substantially. The system you describe sounds like a passive soil depressurization system to control radon entry. There's not a lot in the literature about it, and all of it is focused on depressurizing the gravel layer. How much air needs to be moved through the soil? Should you be pressurizing, depressurizing or cycling? If it's not a huge hassle, I'd be inclined to lift the building up on the piers so there is a very large surface area for airflow and room for an eco-system. I'm not sure what you'd grow, though in the water and light shade of the building. It would complicate the foundation insulation and airsealing job too. I like this puzzle. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 28 08:57:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA05059 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00191; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:47:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:42:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA29795 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:42:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA29788 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:41:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id FAA06078; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 05:45:04 -0700 Message-ID: <3545CEBB.60212EAD@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 05:42:35 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Brennan CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: footprint impact References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3120 Morning Terry Terry Brennan wrote: > How much air needs to > be moved through the soil? Should you be pressurizing, depressurizing or > cycling? These are the specific questions I have as well. In any event I think more is probably better and I imagine the flows should be balanced. My concern or possible skepticism about this kind of bumper is about the role or relationship to other surface plants, bacteria, fungi, etc. and the role sunlight moisture play in their development and what they provide the tree roots. I think the balance might be in reducing the footprint and developing some plan for the remaining lot surface that considers this effect somehow. > If it's not a huge hassle, I'd be inclined to lift the building up on the > piers so there is a very large surface area for airflow and room for an > eco-system. I'm not sure what you'd grow, though in the water and light > shade of the building. It would complicate the foundation insulation and > airsealing job too. The only way to uncomplicate the foundation (in the event of a structural slab) is to use a gravel course and foam as the formwork for the pour in which case you use the gravel and additional piping and balance the direction of the pipe inlets and outlets to prevailing winds - though it would be easy to create a honeycomb affair using whatever span the foam can provide, in which case the gravel and piping could be eliminated. My biggest concern is if the slab is insulated from the ground is thermal breaks at the piers and if insulated above creating a load bearing thermal break between the slab and the walls. That was one of the reasons for discussion of load bearing foam. > I like this puzzle. > > - Terry I do too but I'm not sure the client is going to appreciate the added complexity though I always think of it as a method of simplifying (until you have to describe it to the contractor) John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 28 09:00:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA05112 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:00:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00392; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:45:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA29933 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29923 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:44:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sg1.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.66]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA05931 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:51:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3545CF9B.32E7@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:46:20 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: footprint impact References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3121 Terry Brennan wrote: > > >I wanted to open a discussion about strategies for minimizing the impact > >of a buildings footprint. My specific concern is a foundation system > >that will minimize impact on a large tree root system. The approach I've > >used before in allowing for natural drainage flows is a pier supported > >structural slab on grade or elevated wood construction on piers but I > >want to add the potential for positive aeration and the potential for > >some irrigation. The basic assembly I am considering is > >undisturbed soil > >aeration pipes in a gravel layer with end risers as wind scoops > >eps foam insulation > >structural conc. floor with perimeter as thickened beam support > >The building I am planning for is a three story residential involving > >masonry wall and floor construction so the pier supported loads will be > >substantial but the area I am protecting is really the topsoil beneath > >the building area. > >Any thoughts on alternative strategies or other aspects that need to be > >considered. The building envelope is definitely outside the drip zone of > >the tree but not outside the root zone. > > > >John Salmen > >TERRAIN E.D.S. > > I like this line of thinking John. Piers are what come to mind for me, > too. In terms of aeration, my experience is that a buildings mine air from > the soil by a number of mechanisms (stack, wind, shifting water table > levels, low pressure fronts in combination with rain, mechanical systems). > However, no rain or sunlight changes the microclimates substantially. The > system you describe sounds like a passive soil depressurization system to > control radon entry. There's not a lot in the literature about it, and all > of it is focused on depressurizing the gravel layer. How much air needs to > be moved through the soil? Should you be pressurizing, depressurizing or > cycling? > > If it's not a huge hassle, I'd be inclined to lift the building up on the > piers so there is a very large surface area for airflow and room for an > eco-system. I'm not sure what you'd grow, though in the water and light > shade of the building. It would complicate the foundation insulation and > airsealing job too. > > I like this puzzle. > > - Terry Terry, You've never climbed under a summer camp? My experience has been you'll grow spiders by the thousands, sow bugs, silver fish and dry rot fungus. Obviously the fungus is the least desirable crop here, you can most likely protect your structure from this in any # of ways. One choice might be to elevate the structure enough to allow sufficient light and air in to allow a more varied ecosystem to evolve and eliminate the fungus, there are historically numerous examples of this kind of design in many cultures around the globe. Mobility of the structure would also be a solution, much like the nomadic peoples, they usually leave a very soft footprint. The question seems to come down to an equation involving the "total" cost of the structure in relation to the "actual" benefit, where is the balance point, a tough equation to formulate. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 28 09:20:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA05330 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:20:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01504; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:05:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA01149 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01143 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA72384; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 07:10:57 -0600 Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 07:10:56 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "David F. Lambertson" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: water conditioners In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980428041454.00717c64@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3122 Sacie: Further to your note of below, we use the Catalytic 1000 (salt-free) water softener and are satisfied with its performance so far. For us the following criteria were used in selecting the appropriate system: health, environmental impact, simplicity, low maintenance, space saving and political freedom. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, David F. Lambertson wrote: > > The subject of water conditioning, an old one is of regular interest to me > simply because I have yet to find the 'right' gadget/system. > I am very interested in seeing comments about the numerous types > that were listed here some months ago, several of which were going to be > purchased and tried out. I am specifically interested in a system that will > deal with the various 'hard' elements in water ie calcium, magnesium, silca > etc. > The ones that were mentioned were: Panther Water Stabilizer, > Catalytic 1000, CareFree Conditioner, GMX Magnetic, and ClearWave. It is > not clear to me that each of these deals with hard water, but I would > appreciate comments on all of them from people who are using them or know of > folks who are. Sacie Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 28 10:04:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05973 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 10:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03684; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:53:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:49:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03324 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:49:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03312 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:48:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from StudioArc@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4RMQa18278 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:55:47 -0400 (EDT) From: StudioArc Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:55:47 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: footprint impact Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3123 If your REALLY concerned about the impact of the building footprint, think in the other direction: instead of lifting the building above the soil and trying to get things to grow under it, put the building under the soil and let things grow over it. Mark Wynnemer Studio Architects South Miami, Florida studioarc@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 28 11:25:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07332 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08704; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:10:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08260 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:09:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from AICS.NET (aics.net [209.21.198.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08245 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.21.198.38] ([209.21.198.38]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 2466100 ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:17:43 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:28:28 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: Latent heat recovery systems Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3124 We design wastewater utilization systems that incorporate planted beds to both evaporate and transpire the water and transform the nutrients in the wastewater into plant biomass. Recently we have completed several designs in greenhouses to reduce the size of the system. The latent heat in the vapor generated could be recovered and used to improve the process efficient or for preheating hot water. The consdensate would reduce the demand for purchased water. Adding more capital and operating costs to a system that is predicated on sewage disposal cost avoidance must have a good pay-back. My question to the group is: What is the state-of-the-art in high-efficiency/low-cost air-to-water condensers and heat pumps? David Del Porto Sustainable Strategies Ecological Engineering, Planning and Design 152 Commonwealth Avenue Concord, Massachusetts USA 01742-2968 Phone/Voice-mail: 978 369 9440 Fax/Telecopier: 978 369 2484 Web site: www.ecological-engineering.com E-mail: sustainable@aics.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 28 12:20:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08241 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12153; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:03:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA11682 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:02:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11674 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:02:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA29849 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:09:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va6-01.ix.netcom.com(207.223.176.65) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma029824; Tue Apr 28 11:09:23 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980428120801.006840a0@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:08:04 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Green Book-Keeping Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3125 I was horrified to envision the waste of books described in your message. Downright Orwellian or Vonneguttian (huh...) in many respects. Don't know if they are the right group, but why not contact Habitat for Humanity in New York state, and see if they have some churches or community centers that could get involved. Seems like a group dedicated to God, housing and community would very much like to weigh in to avoid what sounds to a relatively sane person like a crime of epic proportions. --------------- you wrote (culled...): >Imagine taking 500,000 books from your local library system and hauling >them off to the land fill... current plan by one of my "Green Housekeeping" >clients (ed. talk about oxymorons !! ) unless we can help... >a major public library system ... culling approximately 500,000 books! The majority are in English, although there are books in several language... keep them out of the landfill. Yes the landfill...these are good books and have enormous literary value. > >Perhaps you know of a school or library system that could benefit from the >books????? Perhaps in a financially strapped inner city or rural area????? ----------------- > Perhaps overseas in a third world country. * anybody want to rent a few containers and ship these books to Jamacia, Belize, Trinidad, St. Vincent and Grenadines, Grenada... (any in French could be sent to Haiti.?? Have no clue what this would cost... How about the United Nations Childrens Relief Fund ?? UN right there on the river... | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Apr 28 13:00:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA08929 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:00:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14478; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:45:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13975 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:44:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13968 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:44:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA9-p35.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.227]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA18770 for ; Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:52:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <354607FE.14DF@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:46:54 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Book-Keeping References: <3.0.32.19980428120801.006840a0@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3126 Bion D. Howard wrote: > > I was horrified to envision the waste of books described in your message. > Downright Orwellian or Vonneguttian (huh...) in many respects. > > Don't know if they are the right group, but why not contact Habitat for > Humanity in New York state, and see if they have some churches or community > centers that could get involved. Seems like a group dedicated to God, > housing and community would very much like to weigh in to avoid what sounds > to a relatively sane person like a crime of epic proportions. > > --------------- you wrote (culled...): > >Imagine taking 500,000 books from your local library system and hauling > >them off to the land fill... current plan by one of my "Green > Housekeeping" >clients (ed. talk about oxymorons !! ) unless we can help... > >a major public library system ... culling approximately 500,000 books! > The majority are in English, although there are books in several > language... keep them out of the landfill. Yes the landfill...these are > good books and have enormous literary value. > > > >Perhaps you know of a school or library system that could benefit from the > >books????? Perhaps in a financially strapped inner city or rural area????? > > ----------------- > > Perhaps overseas in a third world country. > > * anybody want to rent a few containers and ship these books to Jamacia, > Belize, Trinidad, St. Vincent and Grenadines, Grenada... (any in French > could be sent to Haiti.?? Have no clue what this would cost... How about > the United Nations Childrens Relief Fund ?? UN right there on the river... Bion, Not to sound like some Bible thumping cracker or right wing militiaman, but is every book worth salvation? I have seen a lot of crap on library shelves that would be best used as insulation. The entire mind rotting romance novel genre for example, do you really want to inflict third world people with that crap? Totally out dated reference materials; encyclopedia's, inaccurate historic materials, erroneous textbooks, etc. Not every word ever published deserves to be distrbuted to a wider public. I'm not proposing mass book burnings, just caution in choosing what we expend valuable resources maintaining. Might we better serve the environment by finding a way to recycle some of the 500,000 volumes? Then the next question becomes, who does the choosing, not a job I want and not one I want to lightly delegate. Thorny issue. "Valley of the Dolls" shipped to Haiti, is that a worthwhile concept? Of course, considering that Haiti is totally desertified by now from wood gathering for cooking fires and charcoal production, maybe they would find an appropriate use for Suzanne ________ novels. Sorry, her name slips my mind somehow, odd. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 29 06:08:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA27266 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:08:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA24910; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 05:56:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Apr 1998 05:48:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA24560 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 05:47:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bdg.centrin.net.id (noffice@bdg.centrin.net.id [202.146.253.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA24552 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 05:47:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199804290947.FAA24552@solstice.crest.org> Received: from default ([202.146.253.192]) by bdg.centrin.net.id (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with ESMTP id AAB11248; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:54:47 +0700 From: "denny" To: , Subject: Re: GBlist: Books to Recycle Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:08:10 +0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3127 Dear Steve, I lived in Indonesia (overseas in a third world country as you put it). I knew for fact that many local libraries here doesn't have enough books, especially reference books. I'm sure the library could benefit from your offer but to take all of the 500.000 books and handle any shipping costs seems to big to handle. I will inform the local libraries here to see if they are interested. Maybe if the books can be divided into several groups then it would be easier for the local library here to handle. But, considering we're on different part of the world, I think the cost of shipping couldn't justify the benefit. Still, I think, hauling them off to the landfill is such a waste. In my opinion, it's better to donate the books to the Salvation Army or to other recipient than just buried it. Just a thought, Denny Set Bandung, Indonesia denzst@technologist.com ---------- : From: Office of Sustainable Design & Construction : To: greenbuilding@crest.org : Subject: GBlist: Books to Recycle : Date: 27 April 1998 22:06 : : I thought some green building list-ers may have some thoughts on this: : : To My "Green" Friends and Colleagues, : : Imagine taking 500,000 books from your local library system and hauling : them off to the land fill. What a waste! But this is the current plan by : one of my "Green Housekeeping" clients unless we can help. : : My "Green Housekeeping" client is a major public library system on the East : Coast with 59 locations. Periodically they must cull their book collection : to make room for new books which are constantly being published. This : year, the library is culling approximately 500,000 books! The books are : best sellers, fiction, non-fiction, classics, reference, etc. Some of the : books are old, but most are in good condition. The majority are in : English, although there are books in several language. : : What I am trying to do is to help them find a "home" for the books and to : keep them out of the landfill. Yes the landfill. It was a surprise for me : to learn that books, due to their binding cannot be recycled without : cutting the books apart -- something the library cannot afford to do. But : these are good books and have enormous literary value. : : Perhaps you know of a school or library system that could benefit from the : books????? Perhaps in a financially strapped inner city or rural area????? : Perhaps overseas in a third world country. Perhaps you have other ideas : or have other friends or colleagues that can help????? Not only would the : recipient of the books benefit, but it would benefit the environment by : keeping the books out of the landfill. : : Depending on the recipient (i.e. for-profit versus non-profit), the library : may want some compensation for the books, but money is not the primary : issue. Either way, the library would like for the recipient to take all of : the books and handle any shipping costs associated with shipping them. : : Please let me know your thoughts as soon as possible. Thanks. : : Steve : : ============================================ : Steve Ashkin : Rochester Midland Corporation : Tel: 716 / 336-2308 : Fax: 716 / 336-2357 : EMail: SteveAshkin@Compuserve.com : : : ______________________________________________________________________ : This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST : Environmental Building News and Oikos : For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. : ______________________________________________________________________ : ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 29 06:32:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA27405 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:32:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA25585; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:21:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:14:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA25218 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:14:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA25214 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:13:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4FEZa02463 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:20:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: <6e4e55d6.3546ff04@aol.com> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:20:51 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Books to Recycle Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 170 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3128 The following comes from Fred Freidman with USEPA/Boston who is a great researcher and should be helpful to whoever posted the original question: The U.S. Book Exchange "is ready to help you save. . duplicate and discard periodicals and books. . from the dumpster and the landfill. USBE is the world's major clearinghouse for books and periodicals. . We've been doing this successfully for fifty years." Why haven't you heard of it before? Because they market themselves pretty exclusively to libraries. They have two programs: a) You pay the shipping costs and send them everything that you want to get rid of. b) You send them a list of your surplus publications, allow them to make selections, and then they will pay the shipping costs. When I worked at a university library, I used the USBE several times, successfully. Points of Contact: United States Book Exchange 2969 West 25th Street Cleveland, OH 44113 Website: http://www.usbe.com E-mail: usbe@usbe.com I should also mention that in previous years there was another program willing to take most books, although not periodicals run by the US AID and/or the US Information Agency on behalf of their network of libraries in other countries. I do not have contact information. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 29 07:43:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA28008 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:43:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA26970; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:31:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:23:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA26692 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.39]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA26688 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:22:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id IPAYa21249; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:29:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcoplos Message-ID: <867d9e2.35470f32@aol.com> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:29:52 EDT To: denzst@technologist.com, ddc1@rapidramp.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Books to Recycle Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3129 Maybe the cost of shipping books to Indonesia doesn't justify the benefit but shoe boxes manufactured in the U.S. are shipped to Indonesian and other Asian shoe factories to be filled with shoes and shipped back to the U.S. for sale. Maybe Nike or Reebok would agree to send some books along with their box shipments so their workers would have something to read during their breaks. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 29 09:26:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA00781 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:26:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00711; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:12:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:07:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA00289 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00280 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:07:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA34444; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:49:02 -0600 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:49:01 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Sustainable Strategies Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Latent heat recovery systems In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3130 You said: What is the state-of-the-art in high-efficiency/low-cost air-to-water condensers and heat pumps? __________________________________________________________________ David: Have you investigated the heat pump water heaters from: DEC International (Therma-Stor Products)? Low cost? No experience. 1 800 533-7533, http:www.thermastor.com Hope this helps. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 29 12:24:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08368 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:24:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11270; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:13:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:08:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA10737 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10728 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:08:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.34]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 5604200 ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:15:31 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980429121317.006982b0@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:13:17 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Minimizing Construction Waste Cc: BROWNLEE.CATHERINE@exchange.pader.gov In-Reply-To: <199804290600.CAA18912@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3131 I am passing this message on to the group. I have already told her about WasteSpec from the Triangle J COG in NC. Anyother resources you can point her to would be appreciated. >From: "Brownlee, Catherine" >Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:07:51 -0400 >A highly environmentally responsible international company based in central >PA is interested in minimizing on-site construction waste and handling what >does accumulate in a suitable fashion. They have asked me if I have any >RFP/contract language which they could use or modify for subsequent >projects. I do not have any but am trying to find some. I have posted a >message to the P2tech listserv and am checking out other sources. I suspect >that the City of Austin has stuff but do not have a contact there. >Any suggestions warmly welcomed! ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 29 13:52:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11179 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:52:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18555; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:41:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:37:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18077 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:37:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (daemon@smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18073 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:37:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA19780 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:44:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-067.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.67), claiming to be "gcprime.com" via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd019751; Wed Apr 29 10:44:28 1998 Message-ID: <354766F5.15380D4E@gcprime.com> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:44:21 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: air admittance valves Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3132 Has anyone used these valves as oppossed to the through the roof venting systems. I have seen a couple of manuf. of these things and feel they might save some hassle and keep the holes through the roof down to a minimum. Anyone out there know about these devices? Regards, John Wilson Prescott, AZ. References: http://www.studor.com/ http://www.durgo.com/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 29 17:40:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA19689 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:40:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA02086; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:25:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA01596 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:25:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (rcpublic1.nahbrc.org [207.49.88.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01590 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:25:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM by rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ka041740 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:29:35 -0400 From: "Peter Yost" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:32:05 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Re: Minimizing Construction Waste X-Info: NT Mail Server Message-Id: <00293585902777@NAHBRC.ORG> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3133 The Research Center has done quite a bit of work on construction and demolition waste management, but mostly for residential work. You can get a free copy of our publication, Residential Construction Waste Management: A Builder's Field Guide, by calling (301) 249-4000. Also, check out the Clean Washington Center's web site. They have a construction waste management manual or guide that is geared toward commercial construction, as well as other resources. http://www.cwc.org/ Leading commercial construction firms that practice innovative construction waste management include: Sellen Construction Co., Seattle, WA Cuningham Group, Minneapolis, MN Peter Yost pyost@nahbrc.org 301-249-4000 x542 http://www.nahbrc.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 29 21:24:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA25850 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:24:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA11353; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:13:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:09:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA10941 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:09:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA10936 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.6] (blf6.acadia.net [205.217.217.6]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA02842 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:17:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:17:41 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: footprint impact Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3134 Hello John, Others will give you better advice I'm sure, but I want to try out a crazy idea on you: why not imitate the tree? That is, how about a foundation system based on a central pier, far from the root line of the tree, with floor platform built atop the pier as a two-way cantelever, i.e., a "table top" on a central post? We always seem to assume that a foundation has to follow the perimeter/footprint of the building - it ain't necessarily so. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 29 21:54:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA26204 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:54:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12808; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:43:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:39:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12506 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12500 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:39:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA17368; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:45:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3547D735.D2BDC14C@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:43:17 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: footprint impact References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3135 Hi David, I've had not much advice as you can see from the list (I had hoped for some feverish general discussion on impacts of buildings, it's spring after all). I think the idea is brilliant. I would not necessarily use one central pier it could be too massive and deep, and I think some of its effectiveness results from extending it upwards to carry additional perimeter load as in a tree (though I seem to remember some test that Frank Lloyd Wright had done to illustrate its effectiveness for a high rise building, ). I had considered a number of drilled piers connecting grade beams supporting a slab but a central point could be stabilized easily with some angled drillings similar to tap roots. I've applied for some variances that would result in a reduced footprint that might allow for a cantilever without too much material use. The problem is frightening my engineer, he always shudders somewhat when I show up. Thanks for the thought, I'm going to pursue it and would love some more input because I can find few references for this approach. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. David M. Foley wrote: > Hello John, > > Others will give you better advice I'm sure, but I want to try out a crazy > idea on you: why not imitate the tree? That is, how about a foundation > system based on a central pier, far from the root line of the tree, with > floor platform built atop the pier as a two-way cantelever, i.e., a "table > top" on a central post? We always seem to assume that a foundation has to > follow the perimeter/footprint of the building - it ain't necessarily so. > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Apr 29 23:27:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA27501 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA16139; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:17:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:13:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA15847 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:12:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA15843 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:12:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Beta7/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id UAA23689 for ; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 20:20:23 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 29 Apr 1998 20:17:26 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: "TREE" FOUNDATION To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id XAA15844 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3136 John and David, There's a modular home outfit, I believe in North Carolina (www.topsider.com), that has for years been offering pedestal foundation vacation cabins which they claim are hurricane and earthquake resistant. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 30 04:06:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA02816 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 04:06:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA23938; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:50:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA23700 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:50:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA23696 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA05489 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:57:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:31:36 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: Tree foundations/Topsiders Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3137 980430 0327est Wintergreen, a planned resort/ski community in the Sea Pines model in Va, has a number of such pedestal homes in one of its neighborhoods. They were of a time that has passed them by, there. I think they look bizarre, and the real estate market there agrees. But their practicality seems obvious. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 30 08:36:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08441 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00973; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:25:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:21:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00712 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:20:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00708 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id I|H00429; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:25:25 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: book excess Message-ID: <19980430.072533.4751.1.strawboss94@juno.com> References: <3.0.32.19980428120801.006840a0@popd.ix.netcom.com> <354607FE.14DF@dreamscape.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-3,10 From: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila x xxx) Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:25:25 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3138 xx >but is every book worth salvation? I have seen a lot of crap on >library>shelves that would be best used as insulation. My sentiments exactly. While we're at it, since they books are so neatly sized, why not mortor them in to walls and build a whole house? Cordwood works. Bottles and cans work. Even the straw bale research has mortered bales as big blocks so that even when the bales were removed ( as inif the books disentregrated) the honey comb effect still provided a structurally sound wall. Some books are not worth reading but they do have their uses. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 30 09:46:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09709 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:46:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04250; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:31:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03949 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:31:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03943 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mnsinc.com (a0153.culpeper.mns.net [206.239.106.185]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA12264 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:38:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3548A93F.A62ABD68@mnsinc.com> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:39:32 -0700 From: khassan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Books Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3139 If the conditions in the Nike and Rebok factories are in any way similar to those in Viet Nam then I doubt the workers are even allowed "breaks" . Yes, send those books let the workers read about Nike's mega profits while they earn just enough to sustain themselves. I am always amazed at how thought provoking this list can be, even on the most benign of subjects. Khalil ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 30 13:27:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16553 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:27:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17315; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:16:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:12:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA16954 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:12:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.33]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16950 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Schawe@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4OTTa02864 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:19:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Schawe Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:19:11 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: air admittance valves Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3140 In a message dated 4/30/98 1:09:05 AM, you wrote: >Subject: GBlist: air admittance valves > >Has anyone used these valves as oppossed to the through the >roof venting systems. I have seen a couple of manuf. of >these things and feel they might save some hassle and keep >the holes through the roof down to a minimum. Anyone out >there know about these devices? > >Regards, >John Wilson >Prescott, AZ. > > >References: >http://www.studor.com/ >http://www.durgo.com/ Anything that eliminates another roof penetration sounds good to me. Apparently they work but I have no first hand experience. I would love to specify these but Plumbing Inspectors in Houston do NOT allow them. In spite of (i think) Uniform Plumbing Code approval. Phil ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 30 13:53:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18159 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:53:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19378; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:43:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:39:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19008 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:39:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19004 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from navix.net (xyp106p11.ltec.net [206.158.213.21]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA08122 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:26:30 -0500 Message-ID: <3548C2FA.3FCE87CE@navix.net> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:29:16 -0600 From: GERRY MARTIN Reply-To: gs11531@navix.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: footprint impact References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3141 > Others will give you better advice I'm sure, but I want to try out a crazy > idea on you: why not imitate the tree? That is, how about a foundation > system based on a central pier, far from the root line of the tree, with > floor platform built atop the pier as a two-way cantelever, i.e., a "table > top" on a central post? We always seem to assume that a foundation has to > follow the perimeter/footprint of the building - it ain't necessarily so. I believe this is the same type structure that is used in Japan. The tall buildings sway (like a tree in the wind) instead of crumble apart when they have earthquakes. Good design. Certainly we could learn from them. Sharon Eby-Martin ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 30 14:24:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18692 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:24:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20874; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:13:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:09:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA20453 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:09:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20449 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:09:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA48824; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:15:05 -0600 Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:15:05 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GERRY MARTIN Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: conrete pedestal In-Reply-To: <3548C2FA.3FCE87CE@navix.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3142 Further to below, the idea of a single concrete pedestal is NOT a good idea from a heat loss point of view (conductive, radiant & in(ex)filtration losses) from floors in cold climates, or if the system is used, more than the usual efforts have to be made to address these extra sources of heat loss. ******************************************************************************** Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ############################################################################### On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, GERRY MARTIN wrote: > > > Others will give you better advice I'm sure, but I want to try out a crazy > > idea on you: why not imitate the tree? That is, how about a foundation > > system based on a central pier, far from the root line of the tree, with > > floor platform built atop the pier as a two-way cantelever, i.e., a "table > > top" on a central post? We always seem to assume that a foundation has to > > follow the perimeter/footprint of the building - it ain't necessarily so. > > I believe this is the same type structure that is used in Japan. The tall > buildings sway (like a tree in the wind) instead of crumble apart when they > have earthquakes. Good design. Certainly we could learn from them. > > Sharon Eby-Martin > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 30 16:27:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA21388 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA27606; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:16:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:12:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA27236 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:12:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27231 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:12:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from together.net (dial-121-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.121]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00757 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:20:13 -0400 Message-ID: <3548DCF9.773131E2@together.net> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:20:09 -0400 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GB List Subject: [Fwd: GBlist: air admittance valves] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0CDD371F3553F21467AB89BB" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3143 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0CDD371F3553F21467AB89BB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------0CDD371F3553F21467AB89BB Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <35489B3B.29E3CAFB@together.net> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:39:40 -0400 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: air admittance valves References: <354766F5.15380D4E@gcprime.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit RE: Air Admittance Valves I have never used them personally but they are advertised in Plumbing design periodicals a lot. Most local US plumbing codes have not accepted them to my knowledge. Codes are slow to adapt to new methodologies. They will prevent blowout of the fixture trap due to vacuum created by waste discharge of other adjacent fixtures. They also do not relieve air as a roof vent does. They are especially handy where a remote or distant fixture requires a vent that is either very difficult to install due to field conditions or where a dedicated vent pipe is very expensive to install. Every time I came across a possible application to use one, the plumbing codes would not permit it (Commercial /institutional application). In practice, they are used a lot by do-it-yourself residential types and I see them in most of the local hardware/building supply stores. Personally, I would install one in my own house if the application was suitable, regardless of the local plumbing codes, though I would never specify one in conflict with local codes as a professional designer. Tom Anderson John Wilson wrote: > Has anyone used these valves as oppossed to the through the > roof venting systems. I have seen a couple of manuf. of > these things and feel they might save some hassle and keep > the holes through the roof down to a minimum. Anyone out > there know about these devices? > > Regards, > John Wilson > Prescott, AZ. > > References: > http://www.studor.com/ > http://www.durgo.com/ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ --------------0CDD371F3553F21467AB89BB-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Apr 30 23:14:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03523 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14983; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:59:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA14625 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:58:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA14613 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:58:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust212.tnt2.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.31.212]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id WAA20649; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:06:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35493CC3.5B52@gte.net> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:08:51 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: chris.cloutier@moea.state.mn.us Subject: GBlist: [Fwd: Treated Lumber] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------74AE1C3353A3" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3144 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------74AE1C3353A3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Listers, I suspect many of you have come across ways of recycling treated lumber. Could you please share them with Chris. Thanks, Cindy Pollock Shea http://sustainable.state.fl.us --------------74AE1C3353A3 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from relay1.mailsrvcs.net ([192.168.129.40]) by mta2.gte.net (Intermail v3.1 117 242) with ESMTP id <19980430202822.IJYM6481@relay1.mailsrvcs.net> for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:28:22 -0500 Received: from mlist.ucsd.edu (mlist.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.48]) by relay1.mailsrvcs.net with ESMTP id PAA16446 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:28:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mailbox1.ucsd.edu (mailbox1.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.53]) by mlist.ucsd.edu (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA01597 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pca-ex01.mpca (pca-ex01.pca.state.mn.us [156.98.210.100]) by mailbox1.ucsd.edu (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA03729 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by pca-ex01.pca.state.mn.us with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:19:30 -0500 Message-ID: <6CF0581EC9C1D111B48600805FBEB87861C053@pca-ex01.pca.state.mn.us> From: "Cloutier, Chris" To: "'greenyes'" , "'jtrnet'" Subject: Treated Lumber Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:19:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sorry for cross-posts. Very simple question: Does anyone have information on recycling treated lumber? We have a firm who wants to chip and burn it. We are looking for alternatives. --------------74AE1C3353A3-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 1 05:44:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA08346 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 05:44:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA27150; Fri, 1 May 1998 05:34:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 1 May 1998 05:28:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA26827 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 05:28:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA26823 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 05:28:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.201.77] (usr2a77.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.77]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA09117; Fri, 1 May 1998 05:36:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35493CC3.5B52@gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 05:37:08 -0400 To: mcshea1@gte.net From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: [Fwd: Treated Lumber] Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, chris.cloutier@moea.state.mn.us Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3145 Unfortunately, there are no good ways to deal with used treated lumber, unless it can be reused. We don't consider EBN an advocacy newsletter, but the situation with disposal of treated wood is so bad that it prompted us to take the rare stance of calling for a phase-out of CCA-treated wood. Here are some of the issues: Uncontrolled burning releases unacceptable toxins into the air. Burning with good pollution controls protects the air, but produces ash that has high concentrations of toxins, and must be handled as hazardous waste. Most incinerators won't accept treated wood, because even relatively small proportions of CCA-treated wood can turn all their ash into hazardous waste. Actually, even solid CCA-treated wood would, in most cases, have to be handled as hazardous waste if Congress hadn't granted it a special exemption from the haz-waste rules. A number of researchers are experimenting with recycling options, but none are near commercial viability. All this is detailed in our March 1997 article, which is available on our E Build Library CD-ROM, and can be accessed on-line at: http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Features/Treated_Wood/Treated_wood_disposal.html Nadav At 11:08 PM -0400 4/30/98, Cindy Shea wrote: >Dear Listers, > >I suspect many of you have come across ways of recycling treated lumber. >Could you please share them with Chris. > >From: "Cloutier, Chris" >Sorry for cross-posts. > >Very simple question: Does anyone have information on recycling treated >lumber? > >We have a firm who wants to chip and burn it. We are looking for >alternatives. Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 1 09:39:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12698 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:39:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02938; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:29:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 1 May 1998 09:22:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02657 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02653 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 09:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA13121; Fri, 1 May 1998 06:29:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-045.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.45), claiming to be "gcprime.com" via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd013103; Fri May 1 06:29:40 1998 Message-ID: <3549CE3D.7B9DC6FA@gcprime.com> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 06:29:34 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phil Bixby , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: air admittance valves References: <000101bd74f6$72fcf840$2e032cc3@m002us00> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3146 Dear Phil, Thank you for the information. A few people have provided information/responses. It seems that these devices are not really appropriate to alleviate cutting holes through the roof. Studor claims: "The Studor Air Admittance Valve replaces expensive and complex plumbing vent systems that penetrate roofs of most homes, offices, factories and warehouses. The responses have all been cautionary and not encouraging to use the AAV in place of a VTR. Thanks for your input. Regards, John Wilson Prescott, AZ. Phil Bixby wrote: > Hi John > > We use them quite a bit in the UK. As others have noted, they prevent > syphonage but don't vent the pipe. You therefore need a vent pipe somewhere > on each soil pipe run (preferably at the "top" end) but can otherwise use > them on branches to prevent syphonage - subject to local regs. It's worth > getting good quality, as the cheap ones can fail to give a good seal and > will cause drains to fail leakage tests. In general though they can save on > puncturing the building skin, which is good. > > Hope this helps > Phil Bixby > Architect, York, UK > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org > > [mailto:owner-greenbuilding@crest.org]On Behalf Of John Wilson > > Sent: 29 April 1998 18:44 > > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > > Subject: GBlist: air admittance valves > > > > > > Has anyone used these valves as oppossed to the through the > > roof venting systems. I have seen a couple of manuf. of > > these things and feel they might save some hassle and keep > > the holes through the roof down to a minimum. Anyone out > > there know about these devices? > > > > Regards, > > John Wilson > > Prescott, AZ. > > > > > > References: > > http://www.studor.com/ > > http://www.durgo.com/ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 1 16:04:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA00553 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 16:04:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21248; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:53:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 1 May 1998 15:48:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20836 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA20824 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:48:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA10-p21.dreamscape.com [209.4.252.213]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA12715 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 15:56:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <354A279C.164B@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 15:50:52 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Fuel cell car test Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3147 Anyone still interested in the fue1 cell thread from earlier, might care to check out the Wired News article below. http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/12025.html Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 1 16:44:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA01079 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 16:44:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA23829; Fri, 1 May 1998 16:33:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 1 May 1998 16:29:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23379 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 1 May 1998 16:29:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23375 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 16:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Schawe@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4BLRa14246 for ; Fri, 1 May 1998 16:36:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Schawe Message-ID: <903b77b2.354a323f@aol.com> Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:36:14 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Foundation as tree Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3148 In a message dated 5/1/98 1:08:30 AM, you wrote: >Others will give you better advice I'm sure, but I want to try out a crazy >> idea on you: why not imitate the tree? I think that I shall never see, a building lovely as a tree. Indeed, unless the buildings fall, I'll never see a tree at all. (apologies to Ogden Nash) Actually, I did design a house on piers as you describe. Concrete piers on a 12' x 16' grid with a pretty normal floor joist substructure about 4 feet above grade. We did it to minimize the impact on a heavily wooded site that was also slightly low-lying and would not tolerate tons of earth fill that would damage root systems. The home has a very wonderful tree-house feeling. Unfortunately, we had to do a slab on grade for the garage cause we couldn't figure how to get the damn cars up in the air. Phil Schawe ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 2 00:56:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA12694 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 00:56:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA09197; Sat, 2 May 1998 00:45:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 2 May 1998 00:41:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA08902 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 00:41:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from island.islandnet.com (island.islandnet.com [199.175.106.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08898 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 00:41:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by island.islandnet.com id m0yVUEh-000FacC for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 1 May 1998 21:49:19 -0700 (PDT) From: jberry@islandnet.com (Jonathan Berry) Newsgroups: gbuild To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Old Windows Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 21:09:25 -0700 Organization: A Pawn is a Pawn Message-ID: <1xpS14mipxkU092yn@islandnet.com> Lines: 26 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3149 I've been subscribed to this group for over a week but have received no postings, which strikes me as strange. Anyway, here is my posting. The back porch of my house is a 10' x 8' "sunroom" consisting of several large windows broken up into 9"x12" panes. Weathering has pretty much removed the paint and the mastic (putty) from the panes. So this summer is the time for some maintenance. What do I do? Remove all the old putty, (? put in new glazier's points?) scrape off any old paint, put in new putty and new paint. Is there some sort of new putty that works better and more ecologically than the old stuff? As an all-thumbs DIYer, am I likely to make a repair job that lets in too much of the cold winter winds? Or do I replace the old compound windows with something up-to-date? I bet there's no one correct answer, but I'd like to hear your views. -- cheers, Jonathan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 2 10:19:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA18955 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 10:19:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18746; Sat, 2 May 1998 10:08:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 2 May 1998 10:04:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18511 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 10:04:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18507 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 10:04:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from StudioArc@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4TKNa02431 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 10:10:55 -0400 (EDT) From: StudioArc Message-ID: <8f829e9e.354b2970@aol.com> Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 10:10:55 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: air admittance valves Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3150 I have used air admittance valves and had no problem with them. As Tom Andersen pointed out, they let air in to compensate for negative pressure, but can't compensate for positive pressure. I have always wondered about that - usually its a problem of negative pressure, but it seems to me there will be instances of positive pressure as well. I guess it isn't significant. We have used them in residential and commercial installations for island-mounted kitchen sinks and in renovations where it is difficult to route a new vent up thru an existing building. The only one approved for use here in Miami-Dade County Florida is by Studor. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 2 11:21:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA19738 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 11:21:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20179; Sat, 2 May 1998 11:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 2 May 1998 11:06:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA19922 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 11:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19918 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 11:06:37 -0400 (EDT) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 10880 invoked by uid 0); 2 May 1998 15:15:30 -0000 Received: from ppp-73.canton.northnet.org (HELO ?205.232.94.19?) (209.2.152.74) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 2 May 1998 15:15:30 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 11:13:47 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: treated wood and recycling Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3151 To Chris Cloutier (in Minnesota?), I do a lot of work with waste management and fully support Nadav Malin's response to your question. Here are a few more thoughts: I can't believe Minnesota would allow anyone to burn treated wood. The CCA type is loaded with huge amounts of toxic chromium, copper, and arsenic, all elemental metals which are not destroyed by burning. These toxins will simply be released from the wood matrix either into the air or into the ash in a much more biologically accessible form than in the original wood. The pentachlorophenol types of treated wood are likely to produce dioxins upon burning. Basically, to burn treated wood is to operate a hazardous waste incinerator. It would be environmentally better to put treated wood in a lined landfill where at least their poisons would be less likely to end up in the air, food, or water. Recycling would be better than landfilling or burning, but there is way too much of the stuff being used and it might encourage even more use if manufacturers and builders can say it is "recyclable". Treated wood releases some of it's toxins wherever it is put, and can release large amounts in situations like accidental house fires. It is not good for living things to contact it. Studies have shown large amounts of arsenic in the soil around playgrounds made of CCA wood. I'm not sure whether the arsenic was from sawdust created during construction or was actually leaching out of the solid wood, or both. Studies have also shown merely touching the playground equipment can leave residues on the skin. There has been an enormous propaganda campaign to get treated wood accepted by consumers, builders, and government. There are simple, economical alternatives ... use them. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 2 18:11:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04832 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 18:11:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00388; Sat, 2 May 1998 18:00:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 2 May 1998 17:56:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA00032 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 2 May 1998 17:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00028 for ; Sat, 2 May 1998 17:56:02 -0400 (EDT) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 8952 invoked by uid 0); 2 May 1998 22:04:52 -0000 Received: from ppp-50.canton.northnet.org (HELO ?205.232.141.35?) (205.232.141.35) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 2 May 1998 22:04:52 -0000 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <354B4BE8.943C1C5D@bdc.bethel.me.us> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 17:57:52 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: treated wood and recycling Cc: Michael Poirier Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3152 Michael, You asked for more details on "simple, economical alternatives" to treated wood for decks. A simple alternative for a deck is a patio. Isn't that what everyone used to want to add to their houses 30 years ago ... before cheap CCA wood started being touted as a god send? A patio is made of flagstones, or bricks, or gravel, or concrete, and will last longer than a deck and serve the same function. Cedar is a commonly available rot-resistant wood. It will cost twice as much as CCA but I would guess that the labor costs of a deck would be about half of the total cost, so using cedar would increase the overall cost not by 100% but by maybe 50%. And when you try to figure in the long term cost to the environment and society of spreading poisons around, it is not difficult to imagine a net savings by using cedar. If cedar makes a project too expensive in up front costs, then decrease the size of the deck by 50% and accept that "sacrifice" in the name of saving the planet. When you invite friends over for a barbecue, you can point out to them that you were able to avoid using treated wood by using the more expensive cedar, and that's why the deck is such a nice cozy size. Recycled plastic lumber and other rot-resistant woods are also available, but not as widely. Another alternative is a porch ... if the purpose is to have an area open to the outside air, but a little more "human engineered" than a lawn. Porches certainly cost more per square foot, but may also have more utility. You can use them when it rains, and if bugs are a problem you can screen them. A properly designed porch doesn't need any treated wood. I hope these ideas are helpful. Maybe others on the list would like to add their suggestions for alternatives to treated wood for decks, or anywhere else. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 3 14:53:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00968 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:53:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24200; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 May 1998 14:36:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23862 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:36:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stan.lcc.net (secure.lcc.net [207.70.172.248]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23858 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:36:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lcc.net (hunt-pri4-a1.lcc.net [207.70.180.145]) by stan.lcc.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id NAA17808; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:45:31 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <354CBCB5.F38FD683@lcc.net> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 13:51:34 -0500 From: Kim Travis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cneurath@northnet.org CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, Michael Poirier Subject: Re: GBlist: treated wood and recycling References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3153 > You asked for more details on "simple, economical alternatives" to treated > wood for decks. > > A simple alternative for a deck is a patio. The problems with the patios in Texas, as well as other places I imagine, are called Fire Ants! That is why many of us need to be up in the air, plain defence with less chemicals. > I hope these ideas are helpful. Maybe others on the list would like to add > their suggestions for alternatives to treated wood for decks, or anywhere > else. > > In Organic Gardening magazine, July/August 1997, there is an article titled:" > Now you can grow your own treated wood!". This is a species of Black Locust > that is straight growing and has fewer knots than mother nature provided. > Send $5 to Carolyn Touryniere, PO Box 321, Jacksonville NY 14854 for 12 > HAUDENOSAUNEE locust seeds and instruction/information package. These are genetically engineered plants, actually legumes. They grow 80' at maturity, cut them and they grow back. (according to the article) and can last 80 years in ground contact. I am awaiting my seeds, so I will be able to report how they do in this part of the world. Anyone else have room to grow a few? Kim Travis The Rose Colored Forest Bedias, Tx > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 3 20:26:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA11832 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:26:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03883; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:15:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 May 1998 20:11:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA03270 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:11:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03260 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:11:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ANovelli@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4OONa18218 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:17:44 +2000 (EDT) From: ANovelli Message-ID: <33f191ae.354d0965@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 20:17:44 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: treated wood and recyclingRe: GBlist: treated wood and recycling Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3154 CCA treated "wood" is a perfect candidate for a statement I've been using lately: The best way to dispose of some things is to never make them in the first place. The fight to curb some of the most toxic by-products of industry is to start banning the production of toxic products. It's absolutely mind-boggling to think how totally clueless our waste and production processes are, and how little credence is given to environmentally-related illnesses. Computer nerds have a term for this: "GIGO" - garbage in -> garbage out... only there is no "out" in an ecosystem. Tony Novelli ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 3 20:26:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA11835 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:26:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03887; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:15:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 May 1998 20:11:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA03146 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:10:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.39]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03142 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:10:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ANovelli@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4EANa21163 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:17:44 +2000 (EDT) From: ANovelli Message-ID: <33f191ae.354d0929@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 20:17:44 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: treated wood and recyclingRe: GBlist: treated wood and recycling Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3155 CCA treated "wood" is a perfect candidate for a statement I've been using lately: The best way to dispose of some things is to never make them in the first place. The fight to curb some of the most toxic by-products of industry is to start banning the production of toxic products. It's absolutely mind-boggling to think how totally clueless our waste and production processes are, and how little credence is given to environmentally-related illnesses. Computer nerds have a term for this: "GIGO" - garbage in -> garbage out... only there is no "out" in an ecosystem. Tony Novelli ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 4 08:20:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA28023 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:20:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA20293; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:10:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 May 1998 08:06:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA19841 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA19837; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA96874; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:12:32 -0600 Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 06:12:32 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Bruce Brown Cc: Strawbale Listserver , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: useful waterfalls (was positive and negative ions) In-Reply-To: <199804291732.LAA03639@deimos.frii.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3156 You said:"I've seen several sources (years ago) stating falling water such as rain or waterfalls release negative ions. Put a waterfall in a greenhouse.." ______________________________________________________________________________ Bruce: One could combine an arbitrary "waterfall in a greenhouse" with greywater treatment.In our GreenHouse, we have a few waterfalls consisting of:2 cascades, hydroponics troughs, and water cells to get aeration of greywater (falling water), and thus more negative ions for a radiant-floor heated house. Don't forget, plants too produce negative ions. And we have lots of plants (edible/medicinal) in our wide window sills. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 4 08:26:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA28119 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA20860; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:15:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 May 1998 08:11:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20395 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:11:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20384 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:11:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.96.104.190 (xyp166p12.navix.net [204.96.104.190]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA12507; Mon, 4 May 1998 07:15:03 -0500 Message-ID: <354C94BF.2EF@navix.net> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 11:01:07 -0500 From: Joyce Coppinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-Navix (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: SB Workshop, Tour of Historic/New Nebraska SB Bldgs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3157 Workshop on natural building including sessions on environmental siting and design, building with salvaged and indigenous materials, and straw bale construction will be held at Chadron State College, Chadron, Nebraska (northwest corner of Nebraska near WY and SD borders), all day Saturday, May 16, 1998. $75 fee - pre-registration preferred but not required. Straw bale builder will construct partial wall as demonstration. E-mail or call for info or to register. Tour of historic and new straw bale buildings across Nebraska is being organized for June 12-14 (Friday through Sunday), 1998. There will be nominal fee, but food/lodging/transportation will be at your own expense. Details will be available soon! E-mail or call for more info! Joyce Coppinger Re:Build Associates and The Straw Bale Association of Nebraska 1-800-910-3019 or jc10508@navix.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 4 09:43:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02077 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:43:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23676; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:32:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 May 1998 09:28:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23304 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:28:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23300 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:28:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA08464; Mon, 4 May 1998 07:34:54 -0600 Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 07:34:53 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Samantha L McDonald Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: deadly EMF in cell/cordless phones? In-Reply-To: <19980426.124749.3438.0.goldeneagle1@juno.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3158 YOU SAID: "while back i had heard that there is an increase in brain tumors related to cell phones and cordless phones as well.i dont know what evidence was sighted,.." ________________________________________________________________________________ Samantha: Have you found your references yet to the above? I too would be interested to know them. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 4 12:47:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA06199 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:47:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03372; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:36:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 May 1998 12:32:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03073 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03069 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:32:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.22]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 6951900 ; Mon, 04 May 1998 12:41:22 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980504123702.0069730c@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 12:37:02 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Libraries In-Reply-To: <199805040600.CAA13213@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3159 A new client is building a 10000 sq ft library in Red Lion, PA. I am looking for examples of green/energy efficient libraries. I am aware of the Mt Airy Library in NC but have very little information on the project (any leads?). Also have info on the San Francisco Library from the Green Development CD by RMI (size of this project way beyond mine). Spent an hour or so searching the web, turned up practically zip. Thanks for any help you can provide. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 4 13:13:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA06689 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:13:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04740; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:02:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 May 1998 12:59:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04431 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:58:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.33]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04425 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:58:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id FVCDa02864; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:05:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcoplos Message-ID: <6b01792.354df569@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:05:44 EDT To: msheffer@cyberia.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Libraries Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3160 Others on the list may have more specific info, but Wayne Place of N.C. State Univ. worked (at least) on the daylighting aspect of the Mt. Airy library. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 4 13:48:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA07422 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06621; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:37:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 May 1998 13:34:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06281 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (wfntnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.37.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06275 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:33:45 -0400 (EDT) From: walshj@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 852565FA.0060CFC2 ; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:37:26 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: Greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <852565FA.0060F2B2.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:41:17 -0400 Subject: Re: GBlist: Libraries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3161 Try contacting Carl Orio of Water and Energy Systems Corp. He has done geothermal installations in many different venues, including libraries. He can be reached at 1-603-362-4666 or carlo@tiac.net. Also check out the Geo Exchange information Center GHPC.org . John Walsh Energy Crafted Home Western Massachusetts Electric Co. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 4 14:44:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA10056 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:44:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10095; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:33:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 May 1998 14:29:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09729 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09716 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24404; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:35:35 -0600 Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:35:34 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: where is St. George's School, UK? In-Reply-To: <354456F9.3DE4@dial.pipex.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3162 As an early (1957?) example of a successful passive solar building, is this building located in Liverpool or Birmingham? I undertand that the initial mechanical system was taken out since it was not required? Is that correct? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 4 18:36:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA22171 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:36:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA22644; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:25:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 May 1998 18:19:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA22188 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:19:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mag1.magmacom.com (mag1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.210]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA22184 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:19:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (port26.magma.ca [206.191.5.26]) by mag1.magmacom.com (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA18390; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:26:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805042226.SAA18390@mag1.magmacom.com> Reply-To: <@magma.ca> From: "Stephen Thwaites" To: "Jonathan Berry" , Subject: Re: GBlist: Old Windows Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 18:25:20 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3163 ---------- > From: Jonathan Berry > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: Old Windows > Date: May 2, 1998 12:09 AM > > I've been subscribed to this group for over a week but have > received no postings, which strikes me as strange. > > Anyway, here is my posting. The back porch of my house is a > 10' x 8' "sunroom" consisting of several large windows broken up into > 9"x12" panes. Weathering has pretty much removed the paint and > the mastic (putty) from the panes. So this summer is the time > for some maintenance. What do I do? > > Remove all the old putty, (? put in new glazier's points?) > scrape off any old paint, put in new putty and new paint. > Is there some sort of new putty that works better and more > ecologically than the old stuff? As an all-thumbs DIYer, am > I likely to make a repair job that lets in too much of the cold > winter winds? > > Or do I replace the old compound windows with something > up-to-date? > Repair the existing windows if there is no major rot and you there is no other reason for installing new windows - like you want windows that: - are easier to clean - require less maintenance - are more air tight - have a better insulating value > I bet there's no one correct answer, but I'd like to hear your > views. > > > -- > cheers, > Jonathan > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 4 21:37:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA27044 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:37:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29008; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:25:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 May 1998 21:21:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA28702 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28696 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:21:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id VVH13251; Mon, 04 May 1998 21:28:10 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 17:57:34 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Re: deadly EMF in cell/cordless phones? Message-ID: <19980504.182524.3438.0.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3,5-8,10-15 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Samantha L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3164 >YOU SAID: "while back i had heard that there is an increase in brain tumors >related to cell phones and cordless phones as well.i dont know what evidence was sighted,.." >Samantha: Have you found your references yet to the above? I too would be >interested to know them. Jorg Ostrowski for all those who have expressed interest: i dont seem to find the references anywhere as of yet- until then take it as heresay and i will keep my eyes open. Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 4 22:21:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA27908 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:21:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00791; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:10:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 May 1998 22:06:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA00380 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:05:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hil-img-7.compuserve.com (hil-img-7.compuserve.com [149.174.177.137]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00376 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:05:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-7.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.10) id WAA18793 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:12:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:12:16 -0400 From: Alwine Subject: GBlist: what to do about bugs in reclaimed wood To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Message-ID: <199805042212_MC2-3BE8-868D@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id WAA00377 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3165 We are putting up a small post and beam guesthouse as part of a retreat center in Carlisle, PA. In our attempt to use as much reclaimed material as possible, we have amassed quite a number of old barn timbers. We have had the wood stacked and protected from water for about the last year and a half. Here is our problem: It is very old wood and there is evidence of powder post beetles and carpenter ants and carpenter bees, et al. Structurally, most of the wood looks solid and dry. We think the wood is in good shape, but we are worried about building a structure that is infested. I think we have to treat the wood with something.We are in a very beautiful watershed area, and are trying to be as conscious of the environmental impact of our building as possible. Any ideas for what we might do? We've been looking into borate products - Tim-bor especially. Anyone have experience with this product? It's efficacy? How safe is sulfuryl flouride? Kim Patten Todd Alwine Stillwaters Retreat Center Carlisle, PA Stillwaters@compuserve.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 4 22:23:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA27932 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:22:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01001; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:11:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 May 1998 22:08:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA00464 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:07:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR03 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.159]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00456 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:07:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default - 208.250.155.71 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:45:31 -0700 From: "Patricia Meeks" To: Subject: GBlist: Foundation as tree Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 18:44:36 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bd77c7$5d02be20$479bfad0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3166 A company called "Haiku Houses" builds its houses on poles (or columns) in the manor of 16th century, traditional Japanese houses. They claim many advantages to building on poles (or piers), such as: 1) Flexibility in earthquakes 2) Passive cooling in summer 3) Improved ventilation 4) Reduced opportunity for radon problems 5) Floors are protected against dampness from the ground As for the other features of their homes, I'm not knowledgeable enough to judge how resource-friendly their buildings are. I live north of Seattle, in Washington state, where the winters are dreary and damp. After living in a home with a "crawl-space" for the last 18 years, I would either have a basement or I'd opt for a raised house where the underside was completely accessible. Personally, I can't really see the difference between a raised, pole-based house and one that has a crawl space, other than the crawl space provides a wonderful, damp, cozy nesting and feeding area for an incredible assortment of life forms that do not make for compatible room mates. In addition, I "freak out" at the prospect of having to go under the house by entering a shallow crawl space, so maintenance that needs to be done only gets done when there is a problem. For more info on their philosophy and designs, you can contact them at: Haiku Houses, Design Plaza 250 Newport Center Drive, Suite 200 Newport Beach, CA 92660 1-714-720-0499 1-888-724-2458 Fax 1-714-720-7417 Patricia Meeks pmeeks@msn.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 4 23:06:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA28850 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:06:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA02661; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:55:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 May 1998 22:51:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA02436 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:50:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02432 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:50:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip04.ivnet.net [206.101.73.164]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04144; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:51:47 -0700 Message-ID: <354E7E5F.77C635A8@ivnet.net> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 19:50:07 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alwine CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: what to do about bugs in reclaimed wood References: <199805042212_MC2-3BE8-868D@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3167 very old wood and there is evidence of powder > post beetles and carpenter ants and carpenter bees, et al. Structurally, > most of the wood looks solid and dry. We think the wood is in good shape, > but we are worried about building a structure that is infested. I think we > have to treat the wood with something. I'm not sure about the chemicals you mentioned, but I've had good luck heat-treating wood for insect infestations. During a heat-wave, a stack of lumber covered with black plastic can reach 140 degrees, which is hot enough to kill even powder-post beetles. Kiln drying is also an option if you don't have a heat-wave handy. They can be hard to come by at this time of year. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma OR ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 5 00:50:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA00865 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA07776; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:38:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 May 1998 00:35:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA07552 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:34:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07548 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:34:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA11-p8.dreamscape.com [209.4.254.72]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id AAA22069 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:41:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <354E9746.1FAE@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 00:36:22 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: what to do about bugs in reclaimed wood] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3168 Message-ID: <354E7C68.71A7@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:41:44 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alwine Subject: Re: GBlist: what to do about bugs in reclaimed wood References: <199805042212_MC2-3BE8-868D@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alwine wrote: > > Here is our problem: It is very old wood and there is evidence of powder > post beetles and carpenter ants and carpenter bees, et al. Structurally, > most of the wood looks solid and dry. We think the wood is in good shape, > but we are worried about building a structure that is infested. I think we > have to treat the wood with something.We are in a very beautiful watershed > area, and are trying to be as conscious of the environmental impact of our > building as possible. Any ideas for what we might do? The single most important measure required to repel PP beetles and various carpenter pests is reduce the moisture content of the wood. These animals are all attracted to the high starch content in wet or damp woods, if you can minmize the moisture content and keep them dry by sealing them thoroughly, they may work fine. In a green house situation this is going to be a real challenge, the inherent high moisture levels will work against you. A low VOC urethane (water based) will help once they are dry, getting them there is the real trick. Have you tested their moisture content with a meter? Jorg, does your powdered preservative work in this instance? Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville,NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 5 05:15:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA06194 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:15:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA14201; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 May 1998 05:00:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA13754 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 04:59:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA13745 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 04:59:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 21256 invoked from network); 5 May 1998 09:07:32 -0000 Received: from ah173.du.pipex.com (HELO ) (193.130.247.173) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 5 May 1998 09:07:32 -0000 Message-ID: <354EBAFE.58AC@dial.pipex.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 07:08:46 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Reply-To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Re: where is St. George's School, UK? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3169 Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > As an early (1957?) example of a successful passive solar building, is > this building located in Liverpool or Birmingham? I undertand that the > initial mechanical system was taken out since it was not required? Is > that correct? It's in Wallasey, which is part of the Merseyside conurbation (as is Liverpool). It was certainly a pioneer building. However, before getting too enthusiastic about it one should note a couple of negatives. Firstly, classroom air temperature has tended to rise well above comfortable levels on very hot days. And secondly, more seriously, the school actually depends heavily on equipment gains (especially lighting) to maintain temperatures in normal conditions. (Which means that, for example, they can't replace tungsten filament lights with compact fluorescents - or another way of putting it is that the school is in fact electrically heated...) But it certainly showed that passive solar design can make a difference even on the west coast of England. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 5 08:38:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA09123 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:38:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA19609; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:27:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 May 1998 08:23:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA19251 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:22:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA19237 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:22:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA67922; Tue, 5 May 1998 06:29:03 -0600 Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 06:29:03 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Chuck Hinckley Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: what to do about bugs in reclaimed wood] In-Reply-To: <354E9746.1FAE@dreamscape.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3170 You asked: Jorg, does your powdered preservative work in this instance? "re:> post beetles and carpenter ants and carpenter bees... ________________________________________________________________________ I do not know at this time, but will check it out with the manufacturer. Jorg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 5 08:57:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA09493 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA20308; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 May 1998 08:42:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20062 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:41:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA20051 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:41:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA108382; Tue, 5 May 1998 06:47:30 -0600 Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 06:47:30 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: carmine vasile Cc: "Andrew M. Shapiro" , greenbuilding@crest.org, Jim Vaughn Subject: GBlist: Greywater Heat Exchangers in Office Towers In-Reply-To: <001301bd707f$81d32d60$d0072399@GFX-CH> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3171 Carmine or anyone else: Has the GFX (or any other greywater heat exchanger) been used in the above application? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 5 09:15:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09896 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21449; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 May 1998 09:00:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21011 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20998 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA12525; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:07:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dsy19.vineyard.net(206.166.158.77) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma012088; Tue May 5 09:07:03 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 07:23:09 +0100 To: mkiefer@peabodybrown.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: ICoho Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3172 Dear Matt, Thanks for coming. Expensive maybe, but important and worthwhile. I did talk at length to Marcia Cini. She said it was impossible to work with them as a group because they couldn't agree about anything. She thinks she wasn't tough enough for them, particularly Barbara Adler, and they may have been a bit suspicious of her friendship with me. It will be interesting to see where that goes. Funny Ed Logue story - nice goin', we gotta stand up for the old fart, even though everything they say is probably true. Send a message to greenbuilding@crest.org that says "Subscribe Greenbuilding." That'll get you on the list. The real question is How will you ever get off? It's actually a bit dead right now, but it ebbs and flows over time. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 5 09:59:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12153 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:59:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23573; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:48:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 May 1998 09:44:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23240 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:43:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23235 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:43:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29036; Tue, 5 May 1998 07:49:44 -0600 Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 07:49:44 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Mike Fowler Cc: "'Ibe404'" , "'Sprngwnd'" , "'Jonathan Harkness'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Solar Roofs Supplier In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3173 You said: "The NAHB website only says that a "first-of-its-kind photovoltaic roof that is capable of generating a significant share of the house's electrical needs" was used. In the manufacturer list the only company that seems a possible maker is Water Film Energy, Inc. but I have not been able to locate any more about the product or the company. " ____________________________________________________________________________ Mike: I would be interested in finding the name of the company that did supply the PV. Was it Uni Solar? And does any one have an e-mail address and name of a contact? The company mentioned above makes the GFX greywater heat exchangers. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 5 10:32:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12916 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:32:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25700; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:20:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 May 1998 10:17:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25397 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:17:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25392 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA26799 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:24:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from asy9.vineyard.net(206.166.158.28) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma026706; Tue May 5 10:24:17 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:29:16 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: ICoho Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3174 Dear Listers, Sorry about my message to Matt Kiefer which was inadvertently sent to the list as well. Freudian slip? John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 5 12:43:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17281 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03560; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:31:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 May 1998 12:28:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03102 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03098 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA10-p26.dreamscape.com [209.4.252.218]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA08487; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:35:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <354F3E45.1934@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 12:29:58 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Thomas , Terry Brennan CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Oneida Nation Power Co. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3175 Terry and Greg, Have you seen any of the news reports on the Oneida Nations proposal to take over power distribution from NIMO for the City of Oneida and surrounding area? Is there some possibility here for making some positive impact on this process, at it's earliest stages? Have you had any dealings with Ray Halbriter or the Nation? It seems to me that this could be an ideal situation for promoting sustainability and securing funding and publicity for an Enviromentally proactive agenda. Any thoughts on where this might be able to lead, in terms of an integrated, focused effort, for developing and promoting sustainability? I just read the article in this mornings Herald Journal, so I haven't had time to really mull this over, but it feels to me like this could be a golden opportunity. I would hope that if anyone out there is willing to look at the Environmental issues surrounding energy, that the First Peoples might be. Wouldn't this be too ironic to find that the Oneida's might end up buying power from Hydro-Quebec, in direct conflict with the Cree Nation at James Bay. Any input from the list in general would be welcome as well. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville,NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 5 12:52:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17444 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:52:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04514; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:41:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 May 1998 12:37:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03995 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03978; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:37:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip42.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.42]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA29635; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980505164554.006c88b4@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 12:45:54 -0400 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , Mike Fowler From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Solar Roofs Supplier Cc: "'Ibe404'" , "'Sprngwnd'" , "'Jonathan Harkness'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" , ee-building@crest.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA03983 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3176 Gorg, FYI. I'll let you know about the % supplied. email for Steve Coonen is nfr • 511 Carpenter St • Greenport, NY 11944 • 516.477.2922 • Building Diagnostics + End-Use Monitoring = Energy Efficiency • April 13, 1998 PRESS RELEASE The first residential grid inter-tied photovoltaic (PV) system in New York State is being installed on Long Island in mid-April. The 280 Sunslates™, PV roofing tiles on the building at 511 Carpenter St. in Greenport can produce as much as 30 kilowatthours a day. By ‘running the meter backwards', Frazer Dougherty and Poppy Johnson will become the first customer-generators under New York State's Net Metering Bill, signed by Governor Pataki last year. This bill, intended to motivate residential solar electric generation, requires the seven investor owned utilities to purchase kWhs at the same rate at which they sell them and allows homeowners a five year state tax credit of 25% of the cost of the system. Sunslates™, manufactured by Atlantis Energy, Inc., a leading producer of Building Integrated Photovoltaics (BIPV) also make up the weatherskin (roof shingles) of this building. Steve Coonen of Atlantis Energy, Inc., says this is only their second project on the east coast, a 2.5 kW system was installed in PA last fall, but they are now supplying the Sacramento Municipal Utility District with Sunslates™ for 300 houses. Kevin Creamer of Sunshine Plus is providing Mr. Dougherty with wiring and inter-tie support. Mr Creamer is a local designer and installer of solar thermal and solar pool heating systems. He has also installed many solar electric systems for utilities and federal demonstration projects in and around NYS. A local roofing contractor, Turnbull & Cooper has experience with slate roofs, but this 3.5 kilowatt PV system will be a first for them. 511 Carpenter St. is a two-story 3,600 square foot building originally built in 1916. Renovated to a residence 17 years ago, it also houses the offices of Mr. Dougherty's company, North Fork Retrofit. Coupling renewable energy production with energy efficiency is a logical outgrowth of the consulting, building diagnostics and other energy related services that NFR provides to homeowners and builders. For more information - please contact Frazer Dougherty at 516.477.2922 Steve Coonen Atlantis Energy, Inc 233 S Auburn, #110 Colfax, CA 95713 tel. 916.346.9595 fax.916.346.9795 Kevin Creamer Sunshine Plus 399 Little East Neck Rd W. Babylon, NY 11704 tel. 516.422.3500 fax.516.422.3994 Tom Cooper Turnbull & Cooper Box 733 Westhampton Beach, NY 11978 tel. 516.288.1011 best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 5 14:03:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18867 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:03:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08663; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 May 1998 13:48:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08331 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:48:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08323 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.100.174.173] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Tue, 5 May 1998 10:57:04 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Solar Roofs Supplier Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:55:05 -0700 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1317756670-1687055@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3177 Jorg Several makers of photovoltaic roofing are listed in REDI . I suggest a category search for "photovoltaic". Bruce >You said: "The NAHB website only says that a "first-of-its-kind photovoltaic >roof that is capable of generating a significant share of the house's >electrical needs" was used. In the manufacturer list the only company >that seems a possible maker is Water Film Energy, Inc. but I have not >been able to locate any more about the product or the company. " >____________________________________________________________________________ >Mike: I would be interested in finding the name of the company that did >supply the PV. Was it Uni Solar? And does any one have an e-mail address and >name of a contact? The company mentioned above makes the GFX greywater >heat exchangers. Jorg Ostrowski ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 5 14:28:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19381 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:28:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10160; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:16:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 May 1998 14:13:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09839 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:13:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09835 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:12:58 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OGS23588; Tue, 05 May 1998 14:19:32 EDT To: sullivan@oak.oikos.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:33:36 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Solar Roofs Supplier Message-ID: <19980505.133547.3686.1.sbtauto@juno.com> References: <1317756670-1687055@irisinc.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,5-12,14-29 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3178 Any regional dealer or vendor with an account with Uni-Solar or an account with a Uni-Solar distributor should have access to this product line. You may need to make sure they have the skills to install the product properly since it is relatively new. The product was released last year. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.sbtdesigns.com On Tue, 5 May 1998 10:55:05 -0700 Bruce Sullivan writes: >Jorg > >Several makers of photovoltaic roofing are listed in REDI >. I suggest a category search for "photovoltaic". > >Bruce > > >>You said: "The NAHB website only says that a "first-of-its-kind >photovoltaic >>roof that is capable of generating a significant share of the house's >>electrical needs" was used. In the manufacturer list the only company >>that seems a possible maker is Water Film Energy, Inc. but I have not >>been able to locate any more about the product or the company. " >>_________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 5 14:49:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA21074 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:49:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11474; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:37:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 May 1998 14:34:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA11115 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uu7.psi.com (uu7.psi.com [38.8.39.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11107 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:33:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgate.nyserda.org by uu7.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.940727-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP; id AA15022 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 5 May 98 14:41:29 -0400 Received: from ccMail by mailgate.nyserda.org (ccMail Link to SMTP R6.01.01) id AA894393483; Tue, 05 May 98 14:38:12 -0500 Message-Id: <9805058943.AA894393483@mailgate.nyserda.org> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.01.01 Date: Tue, 05 May 98 14:40:39 -0500 From: "Craig Kneeland" To: Subject: GBlist: green library Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3179 The New York State Energy Research and Development Authority (NYSERDA) is just beginning a green building project with the Brooklyn Public Library (BPL) on a new 10,000 sf branch library. In addition to BPL, project participants include the NYC Department of Design and Construction's Office of Sustainable Design and Construction and Steven Winter Associates. We will be performing energy modeling with Energy 10, DOE 2, RADIANCE, applying the LEED rating system, and assessing the environmental impacts of selected materials. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 5 15:18:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA24124 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 15:18:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13701; Tue, 5 May 1998 15:07:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 May 1998 15:03:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13160 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 15:02:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13150; Tue, 5 May 1998 15:02:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA29812; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:08:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va8-07.ix.netcom.com(207.223.176.199) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma029747; Tue May 5 14:07:19 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980505150556.0073600c@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 15:06:01 -0400 To: ee-building@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: EEBA 1998 Conference Update Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, energysoft@crest.org, AESP-net@aesp.org, energymgmt@efn.org, ENERGY-L-Request@taunivm.tau.ac.il, energy@lists.fsu.edu, owner-bingaman-energy@conchas.nm.org, owner-ctbuh-l@lehigh.edu, owner-bldgmgrlist@lists.uoregon.edu, E3ACTIO-@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAB13151 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3180 Attn: list owners, please consider routing this post to your members. Thank you, originator / comments to: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Excellence in Building – 1998 EEBA Conference Program (updated) 28-31 October 1998 -- Washington, DC USA (please route to your colleagues) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ A total of 75 papers and presentations were accepted from open abstracts, and an additional 25 to 30 invited speakers and special programs are planned (space permitting). Seven separate conference-session rooms will be open concurrently throughout the main three-day conference. Some of these rooms will be dedicated to major topics continuing for two or three days. Others will offer a succession of shorter tracks on different topics. EEBA very much appreciates the commitment of the volunteer Track Chairs, who are now working with the conference committee towards final program details. The full technical program is not yet finalized, however the tracks (which are final) now include: Three-day tracks: ------------------ Advanced Building Techniques (led by the NAHB Research Center) Builders Curriculum (intensive certification program) Commercial Building (including information on "SmartOffices") Financing Residential Energy Efficiency / F.R.E.E. (including one-day sections on Utility Programs and Builder Marketing) Two-day tracks: ------------------- Green Building Systems & Technology (hosted by Alex Wilson !) HVAC Curriculum and Advanced Diagnostics (a certification program, including two days in the conference room, plus Saturday site visits.) One-day tracks: ----------------- Affordable Housing Energy Efficient Manufactured Housing Indoor Air Quality Integrating Sustainable Development Policies, Programs, Codes, Standards Workshops proposed for the introductory day Wednesday 28th October include: --------------------------------------------------- Residential Building Science Primer Commercial Building Science Primer Marketing Energy Efficiency (EPA Energy Star Homes) Microbial Contamination of Ventilation Systems: Assessment and Control Model Energy Code Made Easy Advanced Building Diagnostics Energy Efficient Foundations Advanced Building Systems Construction Controlled Ventilation Systems Advanced Internet Tools for Resource Efficient Building Installation of Radon Control in New Buildings Window Systems: Technical Issues, & What do Consumers Think? EEBA 1998 -- Key Contacts Listing --------------------------------------- Conference Director: Mr. John Spears, CEM. Sustainable Design Group e-mail Web Conference Registrar: Ms Linda Morgan, EEBA Office Manager e-mail Earlybird Signups ($ave) Exhibition Information: Ms Susan Nicome, Sr. Manager EEBA e-mail Sponsorship Consultant: Ms Liz Fox, Energy Seminars e-mail Technical Program & Mr. Bion D. Howard, B.E.S.T. Speaker Info: e-mail Web Other Events EEBA tracks: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ABOUT EEBA Mission: The mission of the Energy Efficient Building Association (EEBA) is to promote energy efficient and environmentally responsible buildings and communities. Permanent Activities: ------------------------- · Annual: One international conference in the US or Canada: 15 major conferences since 1982, plus hundreds of regional workshops on a wide range of building-science issues. · Minneapolis headquarters: Continuously-updated comprehensive building-science library, · and an information and referral service for building professionals. · Regional chapters developing in New England, the Western states, and the Mid-Atlantic states, to provide better member services and training opportunities. · Internet web site and e-mail list to keep members, consumers, government agencies and the building industry well informed. Current Projects include: --------------------------- · Minnesota’s Stakeholder Partners Project, designed to promote Minnesota’s Energy Code, recently completed. As a follow-up, management of the Energy Code Advancement Program, a builder-training program throughout Minnesota and surrounding states. · EEBA’s Energy Efficient Building Criteria(c) 1.1-1998, providing a long-awaited performance standard for residential and commercial buildings across the US and Canada. · The Cure for the Common Callback, a recently-launched national program designed to address the callback problems that most builders face. It will provide intensive on-site training to some of the largest builders in the US, to help them make highly energy-efficient homes their standard product. Emphasizing the EEBA Systems Approach, the series will be presented in over 40 locations throughout the US this year and continuing into 1999. · Technical support for the US DOE Building America program · Cooperative research grant from the US EPA’s EnergySTAR Homes program to examine residential energy-efficiency performance-assessment systems. · As charter member of the HERS Council, active promotion of Energy Efficient Mortgages as a primary marketing tool for builders and utilities. History and Membership: --------------------------- EEBA is a 501(c)3 corporation, chartered in Minnesota. Founded in Pine Island Minnesota in 1982 by a small group of building professionals from the US, Canada, and Sweden, EEBA is now a premier international organization. EEBA’s diverse and talented membership includes many of the pioneers in the movement toward an energy- and resource-efficient building science: builders, architects, engineers, manufacturers, utilities, code officials, researchers, educators and environmentalists. With 1,200 active members and a contact list of nearly 50,000 building professionals worldwide, EEBA is the only organization of its kind, uniquely positioned for leadership in a rapidly changing market. Phone: (612) 851-9940 Fax:(612) 851-9507 # # # ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 5 16:50:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA26341 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 16:50:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA17904; Tue, 5 May 1998 16:39:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 May 1998 16:35:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA17539 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 16:35:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Netcube.ntwrks.com (root@Netcube.ntwrks.com [192.154.76.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17535 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 16:35:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ntwrks.com (ppp14.ntwrks.com [192.154.76.18]) by Netcube.ntwrks.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA08983; Tue, 5 May 1998 16:43:03 -0400 Message-ID: <354F7915.17583E9D@ntwrks.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 16:39:50 -0400 From: Wayne Jones Reply-To: wayne_jones@ntwrks.com Organization: Brown & Jones Architects, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: Building Green , Steve McKenery Subject: Re: GBlist: Solar Roofs Supplier References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3181 Solar Utility is the distributor for the United Solar photovoltaic metal roofing product. Try Steve McKenery at the above email address. Wayne Jones Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > You said: "The NAHB website only says that a "first-of-its-kind photovoltaic > roof that is capable of generating a significant share of the house's > electrical needs" was used. In the manufacturer list the only company > that seems a possible maker is Water Film Energy, Inc. but I have not > been able to locate any more about the product or the company. " > ____________________________________________________________________________ > Mike: I would be interested in finding the name of the company that did > supply the PV. Was it Uni Solar? And does any one have an e-mail address and > name of a contact? The company mentioned above makes the GFX greywater > heat exchangers. Jorg Ostrowski > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Brown and Jones, Architects 16 N. Boylan Ave. Raleigh, NC 27603 (919) 831-2625 FAX 831-2626 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 5 20:30:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA01658 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:30:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA27110; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:15:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 May 1998 20:10:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA26819 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:10:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.36]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA26813 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id IEOQa15161; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:16:34 +2000 (EDT) From: IMSHAPIRO Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:16:34 EDT To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com, G_Thomas@compuserve.com, Terry@dreamscape.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Oneida Nation Power Co. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3182 Chuck: I've done a series of design projects for the Nation. I'll touch base with the architect there (Steve Blais, buddy of Greg's too) and see what he knows about the power situation. I'll give them credit for effort on environmental issues in building design. All the townhouses we've worked on have HRV's, efficient heating systems, and good building envelopes as far as I can tell. Ian ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 5 20:57:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA02284 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:57:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA28281; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:46:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 May 1998 20:43:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA27973 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:42:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA27969 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:42:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4FHBa02463 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:50:01 +2000 (EDT) From: Rkfabf Message-ID: <219cf259.354fb3ba@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:50:01 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: NAHB Press Release (5/5/98) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3183 Thought some of the members of this list might find the NAHB Press Release that was just issued interesting. SOURCE National Association of Home Builders C. Flanders Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://members.tripod.com/~rkfabf/index.html IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq Clinton Teams Up With Builders to Cut Energy Costs in Housing LOS ANGELES, May 5 /PRNewswire/ -- President Clinton visited California's San Fernando Valley to see first-hand how home builders are embracing advanced construction technologies and materials under PATH, a partnership between the White House and leaders in the private sector designed to improve the quality, durability, environmental efficiency and affordability of the new and existing housing stock. In addition to discussing some of the innovations that local builder Jeff Lee is incorporating into his new homes in the far Northeast section of the valley, Clinton heard from National Association of Home Builders President Don Martin about what the association is doing around the country to save energy and cut housing costs. Martin is a home builder from Albuquerque, New Mexico. "NAHB is eager to work with the Administration to form partnerships that will bring emerging technologies into residential construction," Martin told the President. "This means not just the 1.4 million new homes we build each year," Martin said, "but also the nation's 100 million existing homes. To make significant improvements by the year 2010 we must focus considerable effort on existing housing. After all, more than 85 percent of the nation's housing inventory in 2010 will have been built prior to today." President Clinton praised the PATH (Partnership for Advancing Technologies in Housing) project as the "most ambitious effort ever to help private home builders and home owners make cost-effective, energy-saving decisions" that will cut energy use by 50 percent in the estimated 15 million new homes to be built over the next decade and by 30 percent in 15 million existing homes. "If we achieve that goal, it means by the year 2010 we'll save consumers $22 billion a year in energy costs and reduce annual carbon emissions by 24 million tons, equivalent to the amount produced each year by 20 million cars," Clinton said. "For new homes and old ones, therefore, PATH will lead us toward a cost-effective solution to help preserve our real home, the planet Earth." President Clinton paid special thanks to Don Martin for "coming a good long way" to be at the event, adding that the NAHB President's participation demonstrates the association's commitment to the PATH project. Citing the voluntary, market-driven Green Builder programs of the Home Builders Association of Central New Mexico, Martin described for the President what builders are doing in his home town of Albuquerque on behalf of reducing greenhouse emissions and preventing changes in the global climate. Under the program -- one of the most ambitious in the country -- affordable houses in the $80,000-$85,000 range are being built to conserve energy, reduce waste, promote the use of energy efficient materials and advance indoor air quality. "We started the program last fall," Martin said, "and have already signed up more than 50 builders representing a total of more than 500 homes." Both the program in New Mexico and the development President Clinton was visiting will serve as models for NAHB's more than 800 affiliated local associations across the country, he said. Martin promised that the nation's home builders would be working closely with HUD Secretary Andrew Cuomo to further the goals of the PATH program. Martin also praised Secretary Cuomo and his staff for "having the vision to create the PATH project" and for coordinating the program for the federal government. Through its Research Center, NAHB has already established HomeBase, which uses the Internet, CD-ROMs and other approaches to provide builders with information about innovative technologies and access to technical specialists. Federal partners in the PATH program include the Department of Housing and Urban Development, the Department of Energy, the Department of Commerce, the Environmental Protection Agency and the Federal Emergency Management Association. SOURCE National Association of Home Builders CO: National Association of Home Builders ST: District of Columbia, California ("information for one-time member use under the Federal Library Act.") IN: CST RLT OIL SU: ECO EXE 05/05/98 11:42 EDT http://www.prnewswire.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 5 23:13:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA05464 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02798; Tue, 5 May 1998 23:01:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 May 1998 22:57:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA02502 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:57:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02496 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:57:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail2.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Tue, 5 May 1998 22:10:05 +0100 Date: Tue, 5 May 98 22:10:37 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: Libraries To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5208137.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3184 Lake Flato Architects in San ANtonio designed a public library in SA, with daylighting features. Contact Ted Flato for more info. G. Vittori -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 10:18:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25468 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:18:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19281; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:04:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 10:00:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18765 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18727 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:59:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail2.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Wed, 6 May 1998 09:12:40 +0100 Date: Wed, 6 May 98 09:13:10 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: Libraries To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5208912.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3185 We've completed three libraries under our Sustainable Building Guidelines for the City of Austin Municipal buildings. They have various levels of greeness.... But the new Zaragosa Library should be a pretty good energy performer, it has at least been "Commissioned" properly. Material selection was not very "green" however it's design was begun before Guidelines were in place and they made some positive changes during DD phase. Please check with John Gillum, City of Austin Libraries Facilities Manager at phone: 512/499-7495. Sue Barnett City of Austin Green Building Program -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 11:01:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28613 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:01:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21884; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 10:46:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21536 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:46:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21526 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:46:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id JAA0000013071; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:54:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980506145644.006a9970@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 09:56:44 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Re:Clinton and green building program Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3186 I have seen no discussion of what details comprised these new "Green-building" initiatives which Clinton visited. The only thing I heard was that some of the new homes had energy efficient appliances in them. Big deal. Anyone know anything more please? I think it's unfortunate that these stories don't highlight details so that folks out there know what 'green' means. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 11:06:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28714 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22441; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:55:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 10:52:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22025 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:51:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22014 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:51:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id JAA0000017727; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:59:38 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980506150213.0069e9b0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:02:13 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: potential problems with hydronic floor heat Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3187 Regarding potential long term health hazards connected with radiant slabs, as well as failure of the materials in these, did I miss a conclusion, or was there one? These have been used for a long time now---in Korea, it is the traditional way of heating a house, albeit in the old days the system was a series of tile tubes under the floor that had a charcoal briquette fire at one end. It worked very well. If there are problems either from a health or a modern-material angle, I would appreciate knowing more about these. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 11:11:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28881 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22766; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 10:55:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22374 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22366 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:55:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id KAA0000014361; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:02:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980506150533.006a6d68@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:05:33 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Building from wood-lot cuttings Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3188 A short while ago there was interest on the part of some in this group about the building uses of non-traditional woods. I just picked up an excellent booklet from Kansas State via the extension service that is put out by Cornell for the Extension. It is excellent and is free. Sorry I have no address, but anyone can reach Cornell, or likely your local extension service can get it for you. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 11:13:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA00041 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23110; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:02:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 10:58:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22651 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22640 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:58:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id KAA0000013879; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:05:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980506150829.006ae910@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:08:29 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Instant water heaters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3189 A bit ago I asked for use-response from those out there who have experience with the several instant water heaters on the market. I received just one response. I would appreciate hearing from others, so am trying again. Thanks Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 13:02:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA02947 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:02:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29652; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:51:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 12:46:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA29017 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:45:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29009 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id LAA0000009920; Wed, 6 May 1998 11:53:26 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980506165602.00667a0c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 11:56:02 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: building material from the wood-lot Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3190 Hello list, I've already received several requests for the exact name etc of the booklet to which I referred earlier---I lent it to a friend and will have to retrieve it before I can respond. Should have just waited until I got it back before sending the post--I know---Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 14:45:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA05401 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:44:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05507; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:33:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 14:29:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA04723 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:28:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA04716; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:28:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA96818; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:34:55 -0600 Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:34:54 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "David F. Lambertson" Cc: Strawbale Listserver , BauBiologie , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: potential problems with hydronic floor heat In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980506150213.0069e9b0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3191 You said: "Regarding potential long term health hazards connected with radiant slabs, as well as failure of the materials in these, did I miss a conclusion, or was there one? _______________________________________________________________________________ Sacie: So far these have been rumours. Several people have asked for proof of this statement that was uttered at some strawbale workshop somewhere. Perhaps this is a reflection on their lack of experience in the real world, lack of connections to the industry or simple ignorance? Perhaps they may know something we are all missing? I do not know. Others and myself are still waiting for proof of their statements. Until such time, this will remain an unfounded rumour.I have even sent the BauBiologie Institute a note, but they have failed to respond so far. ******************************************************************************** Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 15:02:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05814 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:02:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06701; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:51:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 14:47:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA06271 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:47:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06256 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:47:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13311 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 14:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bsy3.vineyard.net(206.166.158.38) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma013195; Wed May 6 14:55:01 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 16:19:09 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: Solar Roof Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3192 Frazer - I've been looking at Sun Slates and have a couple of questions. What's your take on the connectors? Will they last? Will they corrode? What are they made of? And can you explain a bit about the costs of that project. Thanks. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 16:28:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA09569 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:28:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA10622; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:17:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 16:10:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA10134 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:10:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from roadrunner.sig.net (roadrunner.sig.net [192.195.85.203]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10083 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.195.85.146] (server.ail.org [192.195.85.146] (may be forged)) by roadrunner.sig.net (8.9.0.Beta3/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA19864 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:14:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805062014.PAA19864@roadrunner.sig.net> Received: from [100.100.100.6] by [192.195.85.146] via smtpd (for [192.195.85.203]) with SMTP; 6 May 1998 20:13:35 UT Received: from 100.100.100.88 by 100.100.100.6 with SMTP (QuickMail Pro Server for MacOS 1.0.2); 06 MAY 98 15:16:10 UT Date: 06 May 98 15:17:42 -0500 From: Matthew DeWolfe Subject: GBlist: Floor Coating To: "GB Disc. Group" X-Mailer: QuickMail Pro 1.5.2 (Mac) X-Priority: 3 Reply-To: Matthew DeWolfe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3193 I am consulting to an area architect who is about to move into a new space with an unfinished c-grade nailed down plywood floor. We are looking for a product which will allow us to keep the wood appearance but somehow smooth the surface--right now it is very splintery and coarse. Bearing in mind it is plywood and it is nailed, refinishing is not really an option. As with all things, time is of the essence, so something that is readily available and does not need to be ordered is required. Aside from pouring an epoxy coating over the surface of the floor ($$$ and not very Ecological), what are some of the options. Carpet is the very last straw, but given time limits, it may be an inevitability. Comments and suggestions solicited directly or just reply to the listserv Matthew Carl DeWolfe dewolfe@ail.org American Institute for Learning ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 17:03:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA10750 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12603; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 16:47:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11916 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-gw.BayNetworks.COM (ns2.BayNetworks.COM [134.177.3.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11912 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:47:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.BayNetworks.COM ([132.245.135.115]) by smtp-gw.BayNetworks.COM (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02365 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 13:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lobster1.corpeast.Baynetworks.com (ns2.corpeast.baynetworks.com [192.32.72.17]) by mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA00306 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:52:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bl-mail1.corpeast.BayNetworks.com (bl-mail1-nf0) by lobster1.corpeast.Baynetworks.com (4.1/BNET-97/04/29-S) id AA04478; Wed, 6 May 98 16:54:50 EDT for greenbuilding@crest.org Received: from odin ([141.251.81.26]) by bl-mail1.corpeast.BayNetworks.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0529 ID# 0-13458) with SMTP id AAA1996 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:52:36 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980506165425.0098cf88@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: rwarner@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 16:54:26 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Regan_Warner@BayNetworks.COM (Regan Warner) Subject: GBlist: Roofing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3194 I guess it's a green building question...we've got an asphalt shingle roof= with about 5 years left in it, and when we replace it will be with a metal= roof (I like standing seam, but we can have free barn roofing, may be an= idea)..so the questions would be - can I put a metal roof over shingles? - if I take the shingles off, is there anything I can do with them short of= hauling them down to the stop and shop? Also, the house is clad in white aluminum siding..which I hate. Under neath= is a log home...which I like. Is there/Are there any valid reasons I= should not rip the siding off? and what do I do with it if I do? Sl=E0inte=20 Regan Warner BA GIS, CD Hermitage Systems=20 "Huers of Data, Drawers of Maps" loc:45=B025'15"N 75=B042'30"W ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 17:04:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA10778 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:04:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12575; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 16:47:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11836 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:47:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11823 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 16:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA08807 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 15:54:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va11-12.ix.netcom.com(207.223.177.204) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma008728; Wed May 6 15:53:38 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980506165215.0068754c@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 16:52:19 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Astonishment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3195 Members - I do not have a clue why the lengthy update on the EEBA conference got posted twice to the list. Humble apologies for this mysterious electronic breaking of wind. .................................................. Bion Howard, EEBA Internet Team Building Environmental Science & Technology ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 17:32:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA11622 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14295; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 17:17:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13938 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13934 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA11-p10.dreamscape.com [209.4.254.74]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA18237 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3550D3EA.7801@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 17:19:38 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "GB Disc. Group" Subject: Re: GBlist: Floor Coating References: <199805062014.PAA19864@roadrunner.sig.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3196 Matthew DeWolfe wrote: > > I am consulting to an area architect who is about to move into a new > space with an unfinished c-grade nailed down plywood floor. We are looking > for a product which will allow us to keep the wood appearance but somehow > smooth the surface--right now it is very splintery and coarse. > > Bearing in mind it is plywood and it is nailed, refinishing is not really > an option. REfininshing implies that the floor is already finished, but you say it's very splinttery, so it sounds like it isn't. How was it nailed; hand nailed, power nailed or pnuematic? Are the nails set recessed or flush or do some stand proud? What flavor of C-grade ply is it; AC, BC, CDX? Office space? You might be able to screen the surface, if the nails are all well set, and finish with a few coats of water bourne acrylic/urethane. You'll end up with a relatively servicable floor, that looks like C-grade plywood, I guess that's the look your going for. This reminds me of a saying my friend Tim Pierce used to use in this situation, "You can't polish a turd." Then again, as someone from this list was quick to point out to me recently, "One man's crap is another man's whatever...." Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville,NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 17:49:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA13189 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:49:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA15224; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:38:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 17:34:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14934 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:34:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14930 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA11-p10.dreamscape.com [209.4.254.74]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA23732; Wed, 6 May 1998 17:42:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3550D7E4.E7@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 17:36:36 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Regan Warner CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Roofing References: <3.0.32.19980506165425.0098cf88@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3197 Regan Warner wrote: > > - can I put a metal roof over shingles? The majority of standing seam roofs around here are installed over 2-3 layers of asphalt (sometimes more) and a layer of wood shingles. Many have been on for 50 or more years and are still holding up. Not to say that this is the ideal set of circumstances and I would certainly rather have less stuff between my metal and my nailing surface. If you only have one layer of asphalt and good wood for nailing beneath, leaving the shingles in place saves space in the land fill. Nailing is the key, I have had to do some major standing seam replacements due to wind lift where the nailing wasn't sufficient. We always use galvinized screws and plenty of clips when we do SS, the clips are free and the screws are cheap. Salvaged roofing from an old barn is trickier, you need to be sure that there is enough metal left and make sure it isn't corroded on the bottom side. You will also have to be sure that you have good nailing under this as well, everywhere there was an old nail, you must put in a new one. If that new nail doesn't catch something solid, you will probably have a leak. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville,NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 19:18:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA18570 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 19:18:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA20908; Wed, 6 May 1998 19:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 19:03:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA20547 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 19:03:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA20537 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 19:03:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id SYF08777; Wed, 06 May 1998 18:32:28 EDT To: cdewitt@CLEMSON.EDU, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Implied warranties Message-ID: <19980506.183525.3166.1.environs.com@juno.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19980424121555.007f8eb0@mail.clemson.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.15 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-6,11-12,17-23 From: environs.com@juno.com (beverly weiter) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 18:32:28 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3198 Hi, You asked if anyone knew of an instance on a builder having to buy back a building due to indoor air quality. Several years ago I was approached by a young doctor and his wife who had placed a deposit on a house in either Delray or Boynton Beach.FL. They called me to ask about kitchen cabinets. I consulted with them for an hour, as to what could be done about the particleboard/mica cabinets and the strong outgassing from the cabinet interiors. As a result of that consultation they decided that remediation was not worth the effort and threatened to sue the builder. I was later informed that rather than try to deal with the couple the builder had chosen to refund the $10,000 deposit and try to market the house to someone with more tolerance for the cabinets. Unfortunately, my involvement with the couple was so limited that I have no record of the name of either the client or the builder, much less the development. Sorry not to be of more specific help. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 20:24:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA19980 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:24:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA02287; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:13:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 20:09:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA01914 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:09:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA01906 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:09:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.100.174.173] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Wed, 6 May 1998 17:18:33 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Astonishment Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 17:16:34 -0700 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Bion D. Howard" , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1317647379-67133@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3199 Bion and all, If the EEBA announcement was posted twice, it was my doing. I posted it manually, thinking that it had bounced to me because of length. I cut off several paragraphs from the end and used my considerable influence with Major Domo to post it to the list. Sorry for the error. Bruce >Members - I do not have a clue why the lengthy update on the EEBA >conference got posted twice to the list. Humble apologies for this >mysterious electronic breaking of wind. ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 21:38:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA24062 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:38:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA07046; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 21:23:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA06293 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:23:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06283 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:23:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.24] (blf24.acadia.net [205.217.217.24]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA24907 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:30:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:31:18 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Housewraps Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3200 There appears to be increasing evidence that housewraps: Tyvek, Typar, etc. - in certain cases become moisture permeable, and trap moisture against sheathing, leading to all kinds of nasty failures in wall assemblies. We have a house about to be built, right on Maine coast, where the weather often comes at you horizontally. It will have 8-inch thick walls with blown cellulose, 6 mil poly air/vapor retarder, drywall, plywood sheathing, and cedar shingle siding, 5 inch exposure. We would normally use housewrap too. We'rte concerned that surfactants in the cedar will cause the housewrap to fail. Currently, the contractor has priced putting 15 pound asphalt paper between the housewrap and the siding, overlapping the joints in the felt 6 inches. We're beginning to think the housewrap will be redundant. There is no money in the budget to put a rainscreen behind the shingles - neither strapping, nor "Cedar Breather" - unless we find a large economy somewhere else. Any advice would be very much appreciated. Thanks. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 21:38:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA24073 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:38:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA07054; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:27:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 21:23:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA06281 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:23:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06276 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.24] (blf24.acadia.net [205.217.217.24]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA24902 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:30:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:31:14 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Instant water heaters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3201 >A bit ago I asked for use-response from those out there who have experience >with the several instant water heaters on the market. I received just one >response. I would appreciate hearing from others, so am trying again. >Thanks Sacie Lambertson Sacie, My wife and I have used an "Aquastar" demand water heater for about 8 years now, and find it completly satisfactory. Ours uses L.P. gas, and has an input rating of 125,000 Btu/hour. It is in an alcove, closed off from the rest of the house, with a "Fresh 80" passive air inlet nearby to help supply some of the combustion air. Its exhaust is connected to Type B gas vent to the roof. I wouldn't recommend a demand water heater for families whose lifestyles require many hot water taps on at once. Our Aquastar provides, at best 3 gallons per minute of hot water - about one shower and one low-volume handwashing at once. Since neither Judy nor I mind foregoing hot water use while the other is taking a shower, this isn't a problem. For some families, it might be. A good thing is that the hot water supply is constant, so we never deplete a tank. And I estimate that our water heating costs are roughly 30% less than they'd be with a tank heater. We got the "Solar" model, which adds as much or little heat as necessary to bring the incoming water up to the desired temperature. This makes it useful as a booster for preheated water - from solar, for instance. (On our long-term list of chores is to build a "batch" type solar water hater, to preheat our water during the non-freezing months.) David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 21:38:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA24061 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:38:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA07042; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 21:23:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA06268 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:23:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06263 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:23:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.24] (blf24.acadia.net [205.217.217.24]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA24896 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:30:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:31:10 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: potential problems with hydronic floor heat Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3202 >Regarding potential long term health hazards connected with radiant slabs, >as well as failure of the materials in these, did I miss a conclusion, or >was there one? These have been used for a long time now---in Korea, it is >the traditional way of heating a house, albeit in the old days the system >was a series of tile tubes under the floor that had a charcoal briquette >fire at one end. It worked very well. If there are problems either from a >health or a modern-material angle, I would appreciate knowing more about >these. Sacie Lambertson Sacie, I don't know a lot about these, but it's true that the Koreans used a serpentine plenum in the floor as the flue for a wood-burning chamber; as the flue gasses passed through, they warmed the floor above. The Romans used the same idea and called it a "Hypocaust". If there were leaks in the plenum, and flue gasses escaped into the living space, people died. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 21:38:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA24063 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:38:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA07050; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:27:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 21:23:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA06303 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06294 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:23:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.24] (blf24.acadia.net [205.217.217.24]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA24913 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:31:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:31:22 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Stuff Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3203 For some time now, the bulk of our discussion has been about components, techniques, products, devices.. in short, Stuff. Is Green Building entirely about the correct deployment of the right kind of stuff? If we got all the components and techniques right, could we say that the built environment now was truly sustainable? If you have really nifty instruments, and play all the notes right, have you made music? Could we talk about spirit and values, without getting hopelessly sucked into a vortex of New-Age Moonie-ism and Political Correctness? Could we speak simply, from our hearts, without slogans and axe-grinding? If so, this great virtual community might become even more interesting. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 23:06:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA25806 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:06:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10607; Wed, 6 May 1998 22:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 22:51:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10092 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 22:50:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10080; Wed, 6 May 1998 22:50:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA27662; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:56:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va12-10.ix.netcom.com(207.223.178.74) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma027626; Wed May 6 21:56:14 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980506225432.00701300@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 22:54:40 -0400 To: ee-building@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: EEBA 1998 Energy Design Software Survey Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, "energysoft" , AESP-net@aesp.org, energymgmt@efn.org, ENERGY-L-Request@taunivm.tau.ac.il, owner-ctbuh-l@lehigh.edu, owner-bldgmgrlist@lists.uoregon.edu, owner-E3ACTIO-@nervm.nerdc.ufl.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3204 The EEBA 1998 Energy Design Software Survey, as mentioned in the current issue of _Home Energy Magazine_ is now available. Thanks in advance for your participation. We are hoping to double last years responses. Please obtain the survey document (file) at the EEBA web site: in either "pdf" or as a MS Word document, respond to the questions, and then transmit the results by FAX (preferred), e-mail attachment (prefer MS Word, RTF, or txt files) or print the document and return by mail per instructions. ** The FAX number is (301) 889-0889 for EDS Survey responses. Please complete the survey by no later than May 31, 1998 so it can be compiled into a brief report. Due to the huge interest demonstrated in last years survey, there will be wider reporting of results this year in addition to the summary that will appear in the _EEBA Excellence Journal_. -------- Tip: if you download an MS Word file from _any_ web site, do not launch it, rather first save it to your "temp" directory where it can be virus-scanned prior to launching your word processing program. (All EEBA files are checked with McAfee/Network Associates Anti-Virus 3.1.2 using the latest available data.) Also, you may wish to visit the Microsoft web site for a free "MS Word Viewer" program you can download. Installing it replaces the main Word program with a "viewer" so you may _look_ at documents without "executing" them. This can help prevent the spread of "macro" viruses, being spread by Internet e-mail attachments. It also works as a stand-alone app in case you do not partake in Gates-ware. -------- Home Energy Magazine website: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bion D. Howard, Associate Director EEBA Mid Atlantic Region Office PO Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 23:20:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA26085 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:20:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA11197; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:09:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 23:04:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA10924 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:04:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10920 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:04:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA15676; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:09:44 -0700 Message-ID: <35512599.C2AA1074@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:08:09 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Housewraps References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3205 Given the previous post about 'stuff' my line would be 'look to your heart' but that would precipitate a definite fall into the vortex. I loved the stuff post. A while back during some confusing exchanges on free market stuff I made some comment that I thought was similar about commodification of our interests, interests being 'green'. As to the stuff below, I am experiencing problems in a few projects with building wraps combined with cedar and feel that a rainscreen is probably the only solution best John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. David M. Foley wrote: > There appears to be increasing evidence that housewraps: Tyvek, Typar, etc. > - in certain cases become moisture permeable, and trap moisture against > sheathing, leading to all kinds of nasty failures in wall assemblies. We > have a house about to be built, right on Maine coast, where the weather > often comes at you horizontally. It will have 8-inch thick walls with > blown cellulose, 6 mil poly air/vapor retarder, drywall, plywood sheathing, > and cedar shingle siding, 5 inch exposure. We would normally use housewrap > too. We'rte concerned that surfactants in the cedar will cause the > housewrap to fail. Currently, the contractor has priced putting 15 pound > asphalt paper between the housewrap and the siding, overlapping the joints > in the felt 6 inches. We're beginning to think the housewrap will be > redundant. There is no money in the budget to put a rainscreen behind the > shingles - neither strapping, nor "Cedar Breather" - unless we find a large > economy somewhere else. Any advice would be very much appreciated. > Thanks. > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 23:51:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA26773 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:51:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA12280; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:40:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 23:35:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11902 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:34:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11898 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:34:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.250.138.237] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Wed, 6 May 1998 20:44:04 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:42:03 -0700 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1317635049-808009@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3206 Our family is considering a move into a 100-year-old farm house. This place surely has lead based paint (LBP). I have always understood LBP to be a problem only when its flaking and falling off or if children are gnawing on it. I was quite alarmed to read in The Home Environmental Sourcebook that houses can remain contaminated long after the flakes are removed. The book says that the dust containing lead can settle in the building. Vacuuming and sweeping don't remove the dust, but only stir it up. Window and door frames experience continuous friction that can wear down to lower layers of LBP generating an ongoing source of dust. Furthermore, covering LBP with "regular" paint does not encapsulate the lower layers. A special encapsulating paint is required. If this is true, it seems that any home built before the late 1970s could be a serious health problem. Your thoughts please. Bruce S ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 6 23:57:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA26868 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA12700; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:46:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 23:41:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA12342 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA12331 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:41:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.250.138.237] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Wed, 6 May 1998 20:50:29 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Housewraps Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:48:30 -0700 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1317634663-831180@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3207 I've heard that building science guru, Joe Lstiburek, has moved away from housewrap. I believe he said that he now recommends felt. Bruce >There appears to be increasing evidence that housewraps: Tyvek, Typar, etc. >- in certain cases become moisture permeable, and trap moisture against >sheathing, leading to all kinds of nasty failures in wall assemblies. ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 00:14:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA27190 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA13716; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:03:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 May 1998 23:58:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA13344 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.36]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA13340 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:57:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id LQWLa15187; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:04:07 -0400 (EDT) From: F Unger Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 00:04:07 EDT To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Housewraps Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3208 David, My first couple rain screens were expensive because I made them too complicated. If you can use a lap siding like clapboards, the extra cost of throwing some 3/8 x 1-1/2" pressure treated lath behind the siding is really not a big deal. There is a company selling the stuff in four foot bundles just for this purpose. The name slips me. As you pump up the pump jacks to side the wall, these things get nailed in over the studs and the clapboards get nailed through them. Special extension jambs on windows and doors or extra heavy casings pretty much finish the job. Shouldn't be more than a few hundred bucks unless it is one of those wild complicated multifaceted hard to build houses. For those with more natural inclinations cedar lath can replace the PT, justs costs a little more. Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 01:29:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA28436 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:29:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA15436; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:18:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 01:13:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA15095 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dns.img.net (dns.img.net [207.34.144.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA15091 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:13:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from prayan (port124.img.net [207.34.144.124]) by dns.img.net (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with ESMTP id AAA558 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 22:34:59 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Visser, Prayan" To: Subject: GBlist: clinton, enercon, shading the windows Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 22:23:30 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: <19980507053458473.AAA558@port124.img.net> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3209 Greetings, did you read the news, clinton talks about energy conservation, even mentions windows, thus pointing out the importance of solar orientation. All i want to add is, external shades will save your sealed units from overheating, did you notice that it's often the west facing units that fail? with inside curtains, tremendous heat builds up inside, while outside pane may get cooled by breezes, causing expansion of inside pane, and contraction on outside pane, but as soon as wind stops, rapid expansion. The heat can be rejected before it get inside with external shades, or a reflective film, again best applied on exterior. and in windy exposures the roll down in a track kinds work well. The nicest solution is to receive natural help by locating your house near a sheltering shade tree, that can solve the southwest sun problem very conveniently. On the same subject, i want to send out this post from a friend whose name is lost. The exchange started about a vine trellis over a south porch, but there's more: As a mangophile and kiwiphobe I'd still compromise on the trellised hops---might add a few cucumber and indeterminate tomatoe vines to pacify the V-8 juice crowd. You couldn't run canvas over them though---they need a lot of light. A translucent reinforced polyester might work though. You can buy it and the extrusions to which it attaches from Bob's Greenhouses, Box 43C0, Neche, S.D. 58265-0315. Send him SASE and three or four stamps in exchange for some samples. Also, since the two rows of trellis posts run 90 degrees from the south wall of the house,your instant on-off shades could roll down from a trellis crosspiece just outboard of your three-foot roof overhang. Instead of canvas though, you might consider a slatted bamboo roll-up. You'd get substantial relief from hot sun, but not a total eclipse. For the SW shade tree you would need something that would be big enough to provide shade in five years, and with long enough lifespan to be there fifty years hence. Depends on climate. Banyans would be there forever (fine hurricane protection), Paulownia are fast-growing, decorative with leaves the size of wheel-covers, Mangoes like banyans a good choice in tropics as are avocadoes (not the raisin-sized ones they grow in California). Peaches would be good in temperate zone, except for their short life-span. Another shading device is an oversized vertical venetian blind, with one to two feet wide, connected with a stick or PVC pipe so they all turn in unison. You can make the entire slat-frame of cheap 1-1/4 inch PVC, with a tee top and bottom and a short piece in the tee(s) for shafts turning in drilled holes in a treated 2"x 6" top and bottom plate. The top plate would have to be well-braced and the bottom plate firmly anchored----also the tees and shafts about one-third of the distance from one side of the PVC frames (so they would weathervane in a strong wind instead of acting like a large sail). Any fabric could be attached to the frames. Get a $3 to $5 bag of grommets and grommet-punch from a home-improvement store such as Lowes. Cut the fabric sufficiently oversize to allow the edges to be sewn, or roped and sewn. leaving about an inch and one-half of double fabric inside through which the grommets are punched. Then get some nylon cord and lash the pieces of sewn and grommeted fabric to the individual frames. Control angle with a rope and bungee cord---the bungee to allow it to self-adjust beyond the set angle in high wind or gusts. Voila! When the grape vines are sufficient for shade, convince the kid next door that the venetian blind would make a great sail for his boat-building project. I have enjoyed the exchanges very much, i am signing off for the summer but before i go i want to make a pitch for silent self reliant heating and cooling without using any power, with the careful placement of upper exhausts and watercooled fresh air intakes with fin and tube heat (or cold) exchangers, your cold water supply runs through it and if you leave a drip irrigation on steady, you can cool and dehumidify your fresh air, catch the condensate as with air conditioner, but this is silent, self-reliant, and cheap! and a woodfired stove in basement for winter, with a sheetmetal jacket, can pull return air from the upper ceiling through a duct directly into the air jacket, stove heat will drive the circulation. Careful and individual design and awareness of natural dynamics can keep a house coomfortable, silently and reliably even during power outages, for lower cost than mechanical systems. Simple, silent, self reliant, working with the elements. Builders Enlisted To Fight Warming Clinton Seeks to Cut Homes' Energy Use By John F. Harris Washington Post Staff Writer Tuesday, May 5, 1998; Page A02 SAN FERNANDO, Calif., May 4—Asking for an "American crusade" to counter global warming, President Clinton today urged the building industry to join a national campaign aimed at cutting energy consumption in new houses in half over the next decade. Clinton's challenge came at the formal launch of an administration plan to enlist the home-building industry and state and local governments in an effort to curb so-called greenhouse gases, which many scientists say contribute to a dangerous warming of the planet. The collaboration, known as the Partnership for Advancing Technology in Housing (PATH), is designed to research and promote ways of making homes more energy efficient. Residential energy consumption accounts for about 25 percent of greenhouse gases. Appearing in a state that was hammered by storms last winter, Clinton warned that worse could be on the way unless greenhouse gas emissions are curbed. "If you liked El Niño for the last several months," Clinton said, "you will love the 21st Century if we keep on the path we're on." But Clinton offered a cheery alternative. He said new energy-saving technology and house design can save owners money by reducing heating and cooling bills. On stage with Clinton was television personality Bob Vila, host of a show on home improvement, who demonstrated the latest energy-saving devices. Clinton cooed over what he called surprisingly thin photovoltaic roofing tiles, which take sunlight and convert it to electricity for household use, sometimes producing enough to allow owners to sell power back to their local utility. Todd Stern, the White House official who coordinates Clinton's global warming efforts, said one study showed that in a recent year, U.S. homeowners squandered $20 billion because their windows allowed too much heat out during the winter and too much in during the summer. The PATH program, which has been endorsed by the National Association of Homebuilders, has been underway for a year, Stern said, although Clinton gave it an official sendoff today. The idea as Clinton aides described it, is to use federal money to research and test energy-saving home technologies, then encourage the private sector and localities to promote their use. In addition to cutting energy use in new homes by 50 percent over 10 years, PATH wants to make improvements in 15 million existing homes that would cut their energy use by 30 percent. About $70 million has been committed for the program, and Clinton has asked for another $100 million in next year's budget as part of a much larger budget request directed at global warming. Clinton has asked for $6.3 billion in tax credits and research money over the next five years to promote energy efficiency, but his request is facing criticism on Capitol Hill. Clinton appeared at Village Green, a development in this Los Angeles suburb that is a PATH pilot project. Its 186 single-family homes are designed to be 30 percent more efficient than typical homes. At the event, Clinton criticized those who say such environmental practices take a toll on the economy. "There are still people in Washington who think this is some great plot to wreck the economy," Clinton said. "If I'm trying to wreck the economy, I've done a poor job of it." © Copyright 1998 The Washington Post Company PS Anybody know of any farm village projects in central america where an experienced ecclectic builder and fruitfarmer and his family with two growing sons (8 & 12 ) can live and work? Is there plans for a learning center, kid's coordinator? Permaculture and organic gardening, please, I want to learn from local vernacular, do it simply, locally sourced, ownerbuilt. Working at home, looking after the mechanical system, work in the garden, that's what i like to do, but not just one nuclear family looking after farm, kids, equipment, ...... prayan visser, village scale eco design. phone 250-490-7351, cell, voice home: 497-5146 email:pvisser@img.net prayan visser, village scale eco design. phone 250-490-7351, cell, voice home: 497-5146 email:pvisser@img.net prayan visser, village scale eco design. phone 250-490-7351, cell, voice home: 497-5146 email:pvisser@img.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 04:44:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA02610 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 04:44:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA21144; Thu, 7 May 1998 04:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 04:28:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA20543 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 04:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA20529 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 04:27:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 26661 invoked from network); 7 May 1998 08:35:11 -0000 Received: from ad144.du.pipex.com (HELO ) (193.130.243.144) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 7 May 1998 08:35:11 -0000 Message-ID: <35517225.53C4@dial.pipex.com> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 08:34:45 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Reply-To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: Re: where is St. George's School, UK?] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------28A26E6A391F" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3210 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------28A26E6A391F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jorg suggested that I copy the attached message to the list. Mark --------------28A26E6A391F Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <35502B56.6B92@dial.pipex.com> Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 09:20:22 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Reply-To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: where is St. George's School, UK? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Mark: Thanks for telling us about the school and some its background. > Very interesting. I wonder how they cool it on sunny days? Jorg I've found a bit of info about it now (I was relying on memory before). A bit of pedantry - it was built in 1961 (not 1957) The design (very unusually for that time) depends on high levels of insulation (125mm EPS externally - this would still be considered high in Britain), high thermal mass and low air infiltration rate as well as the large south-facing double-glazed windows. The high thermal mass is of considerable significance here - changes in external conditions take about a week to be registered in the classrooms (and of course fluctuations are damped down). But it results in response/control problems. The stuff I mentioned about overheating refers only to extended periods of unusually high temperatures (say, daily external temperatures regularly hitting 29 or 30 Celsius for a week or so). In such circumstances, with both external and internal temperatures well above acceptable comfort levels, there is no easy method of cooling, short of putting blinds over the windows and shutting down the school for a week... I understand (back to my memory here) that they've had to do this a few times in the school's history. By the way, in winter it is found that half of the heat requirement is provided by metabolic gains. --------------28A26E6A391F-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 08:03:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA05577 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA26049; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:52:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 07:47:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA25754 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA25750 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:47:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa5-p7.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.199]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id HAA22047; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:54:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35519FBD.645F@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 07:49:17 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Sullivan CC: Green Building Subject: Re: GBlist: Housewraps References: <1317634663-831180@irisinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3211 Bruce Sullivan wrote: > > I've heard that building science guru, Joe Lstiburek, has moved away from > housewrap. I believe he said that he now recommends felt. > Everything comes back into fashion eventually. What about the moiture retarding effect of felt, isn't that part of the reason we left "tar paper" behind? Although most problems I've ever found with felt trapping moisture, have been the result of excessive moisture input. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 08:19:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA05881 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26738; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:08:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 08:03:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26394 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:03:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26390 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:09:45 -0400 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF135595@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: GBlist: Floor Coating Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:09:14 -0400 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3212 > Matthew, > If the other listers can't come up with anything better, you may want > to consider using reclaimed carpet tiles. Rather than throw away > existing carpet that was to be replaced, we recently sent about 25,000 > sf of Milliken carpet tiles back to their LaGrange, GA plant to be > cleaned and stamped with a new pattern. They will then sell the carpet > to whoever wants it. Milliken calls this program Earthwise Ennovations > and offers a 7 year warranty on the reconditioned product. They > indicate the cost is around 10.50 per square yard for the material > only. With installation and shipping you are probably looking at maybe > 15.00/sy. Over the course of our 15 month project we hope to send > 150,000 sf back to Milliken so they should have plenty if you are > interested. Contact: Vince Foody, Milliken, 800/241-4826 x5739 > > > > > ---------- > From: Matthew DeWolfe[SMTP:deWolfe@ail.org] > Reply To: Matthew DeWolfe > Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 1998 4:17 PM > To: GB Disc. Group > Subject: GBlist: Floor Coating > > I am consulting to an area architect who is about to move into a new > space with an unfinished c-grade nailed down plywood floor. We are > looking > for a product which will allow us to keep the wood appearance but > somehow > smooth the surface--right now it is very splintery and coarse. > > Bearing in mind it is plywood and it is nailed, refinishing is not > really > an option. > > As with all things, time is of the essence, so something that is > readily > available and does not need to be ordered is required. > > Aside from pouring an epoxy coating over the surface of the floor ($$$ > and not very Ecological), what are some of the options. > > Carpet is the very last straw, but given time limits, it may be an > inevitability. > > Comments and suggestions solicited directly or just reply to the > listserv > > Matthew Carl DeWolfe > dewolfe@ail.org > American Institute for Learning > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 08:41:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA06260 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA27551; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 08:25:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA27227 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:25:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA27223 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:25:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa5-p7.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.199]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA01679 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3551A89F.7861@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 08:27:11 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Quote of the day Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3213 Quotation of the Day We know that the quality of life we hold so dear is weighed against progress of the country. But we're paying for that progress. People raise millions to save whales and walruses and birds, but the state doesn't lift a hand to save the most precious thing in the world, a person's way of life." PATRICIA BRAGG, of Pigeon Creek, W. Va., which is imperiled by strip-mining. http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/wva-strip-mining.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 09:44:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07589 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29649; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:32:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 09:27:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA29249 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:26:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA29244 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:26:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id IXRDa25488; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:33:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcoplos Message-ID: <36e5a06f.3551b82b@aol.com> Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:33:30 EDT To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Quote of the day Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3214 In a message dated 98-05-07 08:34:34 EDT, ashcreek@dreamscape.com writes: << Quotation of the Day We know that the quality of life we hold so dear is weighed against progress of the country. But we're paying for that progress. People raise millions to save whales and walruses and birds, but the state doesn't lift a hand to save the most precious thing in the world, a person's way of life." PATRICIA BRAGG, of Pigeon Creek, W. Va., which is imperiled by strip-mining. >> Well the state doesn't do much to save whales either. Actually people do more than the corporate)state to save just about anything that needs saving. Patricia swithched paddles in mid-quote. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 10:33:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA09036 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:33:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01846; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 10:17:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01389 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:16:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01384; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:16:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4IIOa02431; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:23:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:23:54 EDT To: ee-building@crest.org, iaq@onelist.com, earthvision@getf.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Steril-Aire, Inc. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3215 Has anyone tried this equipment on this list? Or even familiar with it? Please pass on any information or experience with this product to: rkfabf@aol.com. Thanks Cathy Press Release - SOURCE Steril-Aire, Inc. Steril-Aire, Inc. Presents at California Venture Forum CLAREMONT, Calif., May 7 /PRNewswire/ -- Robert Scheir, Ph.D., Senior Vice President and acting CFO of Steril-Aire, Inc. (Cerritos, Calif.) presented to investors at the California Venture Forum on Wednesday, May 6, 1998. Steril-Aire, Inc. designs, manufactures and markets a line of multi- patented high output UVC light sources that eradicate mold, bacteria, viruses and other pathogens that grow and circulate in heating, ventilating and air conditioning (HVAC) systems. Unlike conventional ultraviolet germicidal lights, which have proved mostly ineffective in HVAC applications, Steril-Aire "UVC Emitters(TM)" actually operate at peak efficiency in the cold and/or moving air environments of air handling systems - a major breakthrough in indoor air quality (IAQ) control. "We have launched these products into a highly motivated marketplace with $9 billion potential," stated Scheir in his presentation. "Allergy and asthma have been on the increase since 1979 - paralleling the installed base of air conditioning systems - with over 50 million Americans today experiencing problems. Our products have the ability to kill the microbes in HVAC systems that trigger allergy and asthma symptoms, thereby alleviating suffering while also stemming the spread of infectious diseases." The company offers standard and customized UVC light systems for the gamut of HVAC applications - residential, commercial, institutional and industrial. In addition to their proven IAQ benefits, the devices also enhance HVAC system performance by eliminating costly coil and drain pan cleanings, improving operating efficiencies and reducing energy consumption. Through such system enhancements, UVC Emitters typically pay for themselves in three to six months. Competitive advantages cited by Scheir include: (1) multiple patents held by Steril-Aire, including an application patent on the method of UV light distribution in air handling systems; (2) superior UV output of the devices (up to 7 times that of conventional UV lights), resulting in more effective and efficient viral, bacterial and mold control; (3) a unique positioning as the only UV company specializing in HVAC; and (4) a highly integrated management team with 100 years' collective experience in the HVAC industry and microbiology. Steril-Aire is a closely held corporation which was initially funded in 1995. Since then, management has established production and administrative facilities, formed a base of 90 North American distributors serving the HVAC market, set up representation in the Pacific Rim, and tested and launched products with appropriate marketing support programs. Sales in 1997 totaled $0.7 million and are expected to more than double annually over the next five years, reaching an estimated $20 million in 2002. To support this growth, the company seeks $5 million to fund market development activities, sales staff expansion, additional patent applications and independent biocidal and application testing. By the end of five years, the company projects a 5:1 return on investment through a probable sale or IPO. For further information, contact Steril-Aire, Inc., 11100 E. Artesia Blvd., Suite D, Cerritos, CA 90703; phone (562) 467-8484, fax (562) 467-8481. SOURCE Steril-Aire, Inc. CO: Steril-Aire, Inc. ST: California IN: MTC SU: 05/07/98 08:47 EDT http://www.prnewswire.com "information for one-time member use under the Federal Library Act." ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 10:38:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA09253 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:38:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02145; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:27:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 10:22:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01839 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:22:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01831 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12223 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:29:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:29:55 EDT From: John Straube Reply-To: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: housewraps To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199805070513.BAA15112@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3216 I have been looking at housewraps for a few years now, and have begun to feel reasonably confident about their pros and cons. That "building science guy" Joe Lstiburek indeed cautions against the use of housewrap, but only in certain situations. Housewraps are often useful as economical and effective air barriers (some, other are merely draft stops), good drainage planes that will not rot (like building paper if it remains wet and warm for too long). For the specific house in question, wood siding directly over housewrap, I would say use two layers of 15 pound felt and dispense with the housewrap. The reason for housewrap problems is not just the potential for tyvek to loose its watertightness (this only occurs rarely in real samples I've pulled from buildings, although Joe may have some more examples), but because it is too vapour permeable. Wet wood when heated by the sun drives moisture inward to the cool interior of the house -- condensation in warm weather then becomes a potential problem. The use of 2 layers of 15 pd building paper reduces the permeance of the exterior of the wall somewhat, although not enough for perfect safety IMO (1" of EXPS foam does the trick though!). The use of strapping to create an airspace is an excellent idea that will provide substantial benefits. (BTW, I dont know why people call any drained and ventilated wall a "rainscreen"). The capillary break provided by the airspace is better than any housewrap or building paper. The air space also allows easy uninterupted drainage without absorbing water into the paper and distributes vapour through the airspace. Flow through the airspace from the exterior can allow for accelerated drying and reduces the risk of inward vapour drives/summer condensation. I would agree with others who have stated that wel thoughout strapping does not need to cost a lot of money for wood siding, but, if you want to use cedar shingles an airspace is pretty difficult to get. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 10:51:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA09878 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:51:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02930; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:40:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 10:35:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02457 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:34:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02453 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:34:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.34.14.153] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Thu, 7 May 1998 07:44:07 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 07:42:08 -0700 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1317595445-1226779@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3217 C. Flanders You can find a complete description in the Iris Catalog: http://oikos.com/catalog/books/envirosourcebook.html In a nutshell, the book describes potential environmental hazards that would affect real estate transactions. It's written for sales agents, buyers and sellers. The discussions are very comprehensive. Bruce >THE HOME ENVIRONMENTAL SOURCEBOOK, where is it available, who wrote &/or >published it & when? ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 11:14:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10457 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:14:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04489; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 10:58:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03810 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03803 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:57:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LZM08777; Thu, 07 May 1998 11:01:59 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:05:28 -0700 Subject: GBlist: not stuff Message-ID: <19980507.110531.6630.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-4,7-8,11,15,18-19,23-24,28-34 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3218 Hi, Pursuant to the comment that most discussions are about "stuff" I would like to interject a topic that is not about stuff. I just returned from "Environ 2" , a conference held in Monterey, CA under the auspices of the ASID and IS Magazine. I spoke at one of the breakout sessions on the topic of non-toxic interiors. I was surprised at 1. the lack of awareness on the part of the general design community on indoor air quality issues beyond the affect of the mechanical systems; 2. the almost complete lack of awareness, particularly in corporate design, of the concept and advantages of daylighting; 3. of the glaring lack of awareness of how critical the need to be environmentally sensitive in specifying materials; 4. the lack of knowledge of what an MSDS sheet is and why they need to get one on materials they haven't used before and 5. the vast array of informational sources that are out there. We are like academics - living in our own sort of ivory tower. It seems as thought the problem is that the message is not effectively reaching those who design and specify, ie AIA, ASID, CSI and other organizations whose members account for specifying large volume usage of materials. Most of those on this list (not all) seem primarily to deal with individual houses or smaller projects. These seem but a drop in the bucket, compared with multi-million dollar projects that continue to be built with "business as usual" methods. Any comments or suggestions? Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 11:14:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10463 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:14:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04513; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:03:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 10:58:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03820 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:57:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03800 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:57:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LZL08777; Thu, 07 May 1998 11:01:59 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:51:25 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Passive cooling Message-ID: <19980507.110531.6630.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5,7,9,14-15,18-23 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3219 Hi, Sorry to be a bit behind times - have been away for a week. This is for the person requesting info on passive solar heated and cooled buildings. I was fortunate, recently, to meet Terry Williams of Wade Williams Architects out of Vancouver, BC. One of his buildings was, in fact, featured in a 1997 issue of EBN. He uses a product called Solarwall. The firm designs mostly educational buildings at area universities. These buildings are self heating and cooling. The first time they did one of the buildings, he told me, the administration insisted on adding mechanical systems. These systems proved redundant so were left out of future buildings. They publish brochures on their buildings and Terry is quite forthcoming about their work as well. Contact info: 914 Gordon St., Vancouver, BC, e-mail twwc@twwc.com, phone 205-384-0504. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 11:28:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11309 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:28:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05335; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:17:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 11:12:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04969 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:12:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04963 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.162.253.74] (d54.best1.net [205.162.253.74]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA10357 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 08:20:09 -0700 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:20:15 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: Stuff Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3220 >If you have really nifty instruments, and play all the notes right, have >you made music? > Reminds of a song , can't remember who, "You know all the words, and you've sung all the notes but you never quite learned the song, Ican see by the sadness in your eyes that you never quite learned the song" >Could we talk about spirit and values, Bucky Fuller said that philosphy to be effective must be mechanically applied. Isn't that what we are all doing in our work, our conversations here, our lives? I have never come across such a willingness amongst a group of people to share freely of their time and knowledge with all omers. Seems to me we're doing spirit and values; we just get caught up in the mecahnical application sometimes, and need reminders periodically. ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 11:45:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11696 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:45:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06541; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:34:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 11:28:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05995 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:28:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05983 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:28:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from flash.net (san2asc1-56.flash.net [209.30.152.56]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA10399 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 10:36:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3551D821.8A2D8D61@flash.net> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 10:49:53 -0500 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive cooling References: <19980507.110531.6630.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3221 Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > Hi, > > Sorry to be a bit behind times - have been away for a week. > > This is for the person requesting info on passive solar heated and cooled > buildings. > I was fortunate, recently, to meet Terry Williams of Wade Williams > Architects out of > Vancouver, BC. One of his buildings was, in fact, featured in a 1997 > issue of EBN. > He uses a product called Solarwall. They publish brochures on their > buildings and Terry is quite forthcoming > about their work as well. Contact info: 914 Gordon St., Vancouver, BC, > e-mail twwc@twwc.com, > phone 205-384-0504. > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > Boca Raton, FL > > ____________ Beverly, You might also mention the home page for Conserval Engineering (the SolarWall people): http://www.solarwall.com/. They have a well-organized and pleasant presentation. Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 12:50:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13586 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 12:50:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09989; Thu, 7 May 1998 12:39:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 12:34:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09563 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 12:34:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ci.portland.or.us (pdxnet.ci.portland.or.us [207.109.34.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09559 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 12:33:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linux1.bis.city (root@linux1.bis.city [10.80.1.15]) by ci.portland.or.us (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id JAA77970 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:36:52 -0700 Received: from issd1.bis.city (issd1.bis.city [10.80.1.16]) by linux1.bis.city (8.7.3/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA01370 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:40:20 -0700 Received: from Portland-Message_Server by issd1.bis.city with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 07 May 1998 09:42:37 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 09:46:38 -0700 From: Curt Nichols To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Green Buildings/Green Practices Win Awards for Portland Businesses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3222 Green Building List__ One of the ways that green practices are promoted in Portland are our annual BEST Business Awards. In the first five years, green buildings such as the Rose Garden Arena, Norm Thompson Outfitters headquarters, and the Belmont Diary mixed use redevelopment have won BEST awards. Here's the news on this year's winners. FYI, Curt Curt Nichols Portland Energy Office _ _ _ _ _ _ 1998 BEST Business Award Winners Selected at Annual Breakfast of Business Champions PORTLAND Six local businesses were recognized for their efforts to save energy, conserve water, reduce and recycle waste, and promote transportation alternatives at a breakfast today at the Benson Hotel. Robin Cody, an award-winning local author, gave a presentation about the importance of these kinds of actions by businesses. US Representative Earl Blumaneuar (D-OR) was on hand to present each winner with their award. This year's winners included two firms recognized for their energy efficiency accomplishments. They were Boeing Commercial Airplane Group and Lamb's Thriftway. There were also two winners in the waste reduction category. They were Calbag Metals, Co and Cascade General, Inc. Graphic Sciences, Inc won an award for water conservation and a partnership effort between the Oregon Health Sciences University, the VA Medical Center, and Shriners Children's Hospital was recognized for their employee trip reducing transportation alternatives. BEST stands for Businesses for an Environmentally Sustainable Tomorrow -- a service offered by the City of Portland to help local businesses save money and benefit the environment at the same time. This year was the sixth annual BEST awards event. The BEST Business Awards are issued jointly by the City of Portland, the Association for Portland Progress (APP), the Business Journal of Portland, and the Environmental Federation of Oregon (EFO). City Commissioner Erik Sten commented, "The efforts of these businesses -- and the winners from prior years -- are helping to keep the Portland area both prosperous and livable." Commissioner Sten, who oversees the Energy Office which manages the BEST program, noted that the award-winning actions from all six year's winners added up to an annual cost avoidance of more than $8 million per year. He mentioned that those businesses were saving 370 million gallons of water every year -- enough water to supply nearly 59,000 typical homes for an entire month. "So, while the companies are saving money, we're left with additional water to supply the growing demands on our water supply system," he added. For more information on the services offered through the BEST program, how to apply for the BEST Business Awards, or more details on this year's winners, contact the Portland Energy Office at (503) 823-7222 or visit their web site. BEST program information is available at http://www.ci.portland.or.us/energy/web/bestmain.html. #### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 17:34:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA28988 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 17:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25394; Thu, 7 May 1998 17:22:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 17:17:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA25012 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 17:17:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eypdc04.eypae.com (eypdc04.eypae.com [205.234.22.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA25008 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 17:17:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by eypdc04.eypae.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Thu, 7 May 1998 17:25:41 -0400 Message-ID: From: Mike Fowler To: "'Jorg D. Ostrowski'" Cc: "'Sprngwnd'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: FW: NAHBRC Townhouse PV Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 16:58:47 -0400 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3223 Jorg, Here is a copy of what was sent to me by Joe Wiehagen of the NAHBRC regarding the PV roof supplier for the NAHB Demonstration Townhomes. Mike. > ---------- > From: Joe Wiehagen[SMTP:jwiehagen@nahbrc.org] > Sent: Thursday, May 07, 1998 10:21 AM > To: Mike Fowler > Subject: NAHBRC Towhnouse PV > > Mike, > > I was forwarded an e-mail of yours looking for the > manufacturer of the building-integrated PV system on the NAHB > Research Center Townhouse. The roofing is a PV-metal roof which is > installed exactly as the metal roofing on the rest of the house. The > PV-metal roofing modules were manufactured by Energy Conversion > Devices, Troy, MI. but are commercialized by their subsidiary, United > Solar Systems Corp., San Diego, CA. 800-397-2083. The commercialized > PV-metal roofing is slightly different from the townhouse roofing in > that standard lengths are available although they have the > capability of modules up to about 20 feet. > > Regards, Joe Wiehagen > > > Joe Wiehagen > jwiehagen@nahbrc.org > 301-249-4400 x533 > http://www.nahbrc.org > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 18:45:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA01286 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA28832; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 18:29:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA28487 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28483 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:28:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JOSEPHCH (207-172-240-17.s17.as1.bsd.erols.com [207.172.240.17]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA16244; Thu, 7 May 1998 18:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 18:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805072236.SAA16244@smtp1.erols.com> X-Sender: usbt@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Joe Charlson Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: housewraps Cc: John Straube Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3224 John Straube wrote: >For the specific house in question, wood siding directly over housewrap, I >would say use two layers of 15 pound felt and dispense with the housewrap. Why 2-layers?? I would think this would lead to water getting trapped between the two layers in locations where the paper bows/bends (air gaps) and then degrading both over time. Alternately if the mositure flows from the air-gaps directly into the wall cavity, it will have a more difficult time finding its way out. John Straube wrote: >exterior of the wall somewhat, although not enough for perfect safety IMO >(1" of EXPS foam does the trick though!). If there is no interior vapor barrier, then disregard the following. If there is an interior vapor barrier however, adding extrued polystyrene (XPS) or other extrememly low permeance exterior moisture barrier layer sets the 8" wood stud cavity up for moisture failure. If water or moist air enters the wall cavity, it will have a hell of time trying to leave when sandwiched between two relatively impervious layers. Over time water is likely to enter through details around windows, breaks in the foam (ie.corners), penetrations, etc.. Meticulus attention to detail will lower the probably of this occuring but why risk it when you can less expensively design a wall with a higher drying potential. If you insist on placing extrued polystyrene (XPS) or 2 lb/ft3 expanded polystyrene on the outside, make sure they are tongue and groove edges, seal the others (tape). I would suggest eliminating the interior vapor barrier and just air-sealing the drywall provided that no excessive interior moisture sources exist like a swimming pool or multiple yougnsters at home all day. Just some friendly thoughts, Joe Charlson ****************************************** Joe Charlson USBT, United States Building Technology, Inc. http://www.erols.com/usbt 701-B Waverly Street Framingham, MA, 01702 USA Tel: 508-424-0055 Fax: 508-424-0050 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 20:07:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA03525 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:07:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02157; Thu, 7 May 1998 19:56:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 19:50:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01804 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 19:50:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from radius1.teleport.com (radius1.teleport.com [192.108.254.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01800 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 19:50:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kathleen (pdx59-i48-15.teleport.com [204.202.167.221]) by radius1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA06798 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 16:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805072358.QAA06798@radius1.teleport.com> From: "Ed McNamara" To: "GBlist" Subject: GBlist: Garbage disposals Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 16:59:34 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3225 Garbage disposals or landfill - which is better? I'm just finishing construction of a 144 unit apartment building which has as many sustainable elements as I could work in. I've got my property management company to commit to green management practices. Their staff has actually gotten excited about it and has put together a nice flyer for tenants telling them what we did in construction, how they're going to manage (recycled, non-chlorine bleach, vegetable ink paper; biodegradable cleaning products; organic landscape maintenance; HVAC maintenance program; etc.). The flyer encourages tenants to do their part to help. My question is - should we encourage them to use garbage disposals as a way of reducing landfill impact or discourage them to save water and sewage treatment? I'd appreciate any thoughts. Thanks! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 20:36:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA04217 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03365; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:25:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 20:20:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA03048 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:19:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bminet.bminet.com (root@console.bminet.com [207.170.27.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03044 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:19:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from clearned.bminet.com (dial175.bminet.com [207.170.27.175]) by bminet.bminet.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA25550; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:05:17 -0500 Message-Id: <199805080105.UAA25550@bminet.bminet.com> From: "Chuck Learned" To: "Marcoplos" , , Subject: Re: GBlist: Quote of the day Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 19:11:20 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3226 ---------- > From: Marcoplos > To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com; greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: Re: GBlist: Quote of the day > Date: Thursday, May 07, 1998 8:33 AM > > In a message dated 98-05-07 08:34:34 EDT, ashcreek@dreamscape.com writes: > > << Quotation of the Day > > We know that the quality of life we hold so dear is > weighed against progress of the country. > But we're paying for that progress. People raise > millions to save whales and walruses > and birds, but the state doesn't lift a hand to save the most > precious thing in the world, a person's > way of life." > > PATRICIA BRAGG, of Pigeon Creek, W. Va., which is > imperiled by strip-mining. >> > > Well the state doesn't do much to save whales either. Actually people do more > than the corporate)state to save just about anything that needs saving. > Patricia swithched paddles in mid-quote. > ______________________________________________________________________ > I agree, most acts of violence to people and the earth is committed by states and governments, and you can throw in corporations since they are basically the same thing only organized a little differently. Though these entities all represent the collective organized conscience of the we the people. The truth as I see it is we as a whole are spiritually imature people. It is only through individuals acting and living with spiritual maturity and integrity that will save the earth and ourselves from certain undesired outcomes. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 7 21:05:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA04835 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 21:05:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04421; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:54:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 May 1998 20:49:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04091 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:49:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04087 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 20:49:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.250.138.67] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Thu, 7 May 1998 17:58:13 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Garbage disposals Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 17:56:11 -0700 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "GBlist" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1317558601-209363@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3227 >Garbage disposals or landfill - which is better? Composting is better than either. Before you reject the idea for an apartment complex, consider creating a community garden where you can never have enough good soil. Many local governments are composting on a large scale, so your's might be able to offer advice or assistance. Seems like keeping 144 apartments worth of organic matter out of the landfill or the treatment plant should get someone's attention. Good Luck Bruce S ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 8 06:44:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA18688 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 06:44:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA18232; Fri, 8 May 1998 06:33:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 May 1998 06:29:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA17867 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 06:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.42]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA17863 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 06:28:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4CNa018945 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 06:35:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: <6225ac3f.3552e010@aol.com> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 06:35:58 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: food scrap disposal (was landfill or disposal) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 170 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3228 Reply from another listserv: Definitely DO NOT encourage them to use their disposals as a method to reduce their food wastes. This method will only add to the cost and burden of dealing with these materials at the local wastewater treatment plant. Why not consider encouraging them to use new compact worm composting bins that have been designed for use by apartment dwellers for their food waste scraps. If you'd like more info, SPRA works with a California distributor of the product. Call us at (520) 791-4069 Mitra Khazai ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 8 07:38:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA19505 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 07:38:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA19616; Fri, 8 May 1998 07:27:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 May 1998 07:24:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA19343 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 07:23:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA19339 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 07:23:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4LAYa05149 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 07:30:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Caaradrbl Message-ID: <8e7cea39.3552ece8@aol.com> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 07:30:47 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Subject: Re: GBlist: Garbage disposals Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3229 >>On 7 May 1998 16:59:34 -0700 "Ed McNamara" Wrote: Garbage disposals or landfill - which is better? << Composting is the obvious choice since the solids that have to be removed at the waste treatment plant are the expensive part. You don't get a free ride by flushing this stuff down the drain (and it goes for septic systems as well.) However: There may be other concerns like tenants who don't remove the stuff from their apartments on a timely basis causing rodent and insect infestation or IAQ problems. I have heard of one town in the south that mandated disposals and all but eliminated rats in the area. Composting, unless done properly, is only feed for rodents and others. I'm not sure a owner is going to spring for the costs of doing it right. Anyway, the amount of compostable material is small compared to the rest of the waste stream. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave Assoc, Inc Contractors, Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 8 09:21:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21908 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:21:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22546; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:09:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 May 1998 09:06:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22267 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:06:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22260 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:06:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04632; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:13:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:13:45 EDT From: John Straube Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: housewraps To: Joe Charlson cc: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199805072236.SAA16244@smtp1.erols.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3230 Thanks for the stimulating thoughts Joe, but I guess I was not clear in my motives. > John Straube wrote: > >For the specific house in question, wood siding directly over housewrap, I > >would say use two layers of 15 pound felt and dispense with the housewrap. > On Thu, 7 May 1998, Joe Charlson wrote: > Why 2-layers?? I would think this would lead to water getting trapped The two layers are there to provide more resistance to vapour flow from the outside to the inside. If water gets between the two layers then, if you had only one layer the wood sheathing would be wet. I would prefer asphalt treated paper to get wet than wood sheathing (which absorbs). > John Straube wrote: > >exterior of the wall somewhat, although not enough for perfect safety IMO > >(1" of EXPS foam does the trick though!). > If there is no interior vapor barrier, then disregard the following. If > there is an interior vapor barrier however, adding extrued polystyrene (XPS) > or other extrememly low permeance exterior moisture barrier layer sets the > 8" wood stud cavity up for moisture failure. If water or moist air enters EXPS is not extremely low permeance, it is about 0.7 to .8 US perms. The danger in the wall described is as much, or more, from inward vapour drives in the summer than outward winter drives -- therefore, the EXPS is protection. It is also good protection from air leakage condesation. > the wall cavity, it will have a hell of time trying to leave when sandwiched > between two relatively impervious layers. Over time water is likely to Although this is the common thought in the US, and makes some sense, experience and calculation shows this not to be the case. A large proportion of walls are built with foam sheathing in Canada. In the late 80's there was some concern about the ability of such walls to dry out built-in moisture. Five test houses were built with many different wall systems. In Halifax, St Johns and Fredericton, wet cold climates, 2x4 walls with Styrofoam sheathing dried out as quickly as 2x6 walls with waferboard. In Waterloo, walls with styrofoam sheathing dried very quickly (we are slightly colder and drier than the Maritimes, like a sheltered location in Maine). In Alberta (very cold and dry), all walls dried in no time. All these reports, including BEG's, are available from CMHC. But, insulated sheathing offers some great benefits 1) it reduces thermal bridges at the studs, 2) it maintains the surface on which air leakage condensation is likely to occur at a higher temperature -- in many cases it eliminates the posibiluity of air leakage condensation completely, 3) it is a non-absorbent layer behind the building paper that acts as another drainage layer for rain and 4) it allows for improved heat loss control with less use of large (2x6 or even 2x8) chunks of scarce wood. > enter through details around windows, breaks in the foam (ie.corners), > penetrations, etc.. Meticulus attention to detail will lower the probably > of this occuring but why risk it when you can less expensively design a wall > with a higher drying potential. My point again -- EXPS will reduce drying potential somewhat, but will greatly reduce the potential for wetting from exfiltration in winter and inward vapour drives in the summer. >If you insist on placing extrued > polystyrene (XPS) or 2 lb/ft3 expanded polystyrene on the outside, make sure > they are tongue and groove edges, seal the others (tape). I would suggest > eliminating the interior vapor barrier and just air-sealing the drywall > provided that no excessive interior moisture sources exist like a swimming > pool or multiple yougnsters at home all day. I can agree with these comments! I might use a good paint primer if in a real cold climate (e.g 10 000 HDD) BTW, an 8" wood stud is a bit much IMO. I'd use 2x6+ foam to get better (no bridging) R-value. If you really want superinsulation, use strawbales or a double stud wall. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 8 10:31:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24669 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:31:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26081; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:17:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 May 1998 10:12:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25667 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:12:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25662 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 10:12:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20188; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:19:13 -0600 Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:19:13 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: looking for: Expert IAQ Witness Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3231 Can anyone recommend an expert in Indoor Air Quality, environmental hypersensitivity, chemical illness and sick building syndrome, with court experience, that could testify on behalf of a chemical sensitive person? ******************************************************************************** Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 8 11:20:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26413 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28194; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:09:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 May 1998 11:05:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27917 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:05:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27912 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:05:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA10051 for ; Fri, 08 May 1998 11:13:14 -0400 Message-id: <3228450@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 08 May 98 11:13:21 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Garbage disposals To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3232 Also, worm bins may be a solution. Conservation Law Found. offices in Boston have a worm bin in the basement for food waste composting. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 8 11:30:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26684 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:30:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28791; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:19:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 May 1998 11:15:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28486 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:15:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28481 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.162.253.68] (d48.best1.net [205.162.253.68]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA02255 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:23:10 -0700 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:23:18 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: Garbage disposals Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3233 >Garbage disposals or landfill - which is better? > >should we encourage them to use garbage disposals as a way of reducing >landfill impact or discourage them to save water and sewage treatment? > Worm bins and/or composting for non dairy, non-meat food waste. 142 units probably have some significant landscaping; centralised composting of yard and food waste with an organic vegetable garden for the residents would strongly encourage participation in a kitchen compost program. Garbage disposals are noisy, wasteful, prone to clogging and require maintenance. I'm not sure whoever thought they were a good idea. ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 8 17:33:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA05681 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:33:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16979; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:22:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 May 1998 17:17:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA16596 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA16590 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:17:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail2.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Fri, 8 May 1998 16:30:32 +0100 Date: Fri, 8 May 98 16:31:02 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: GBlist: Duct Seal To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5213208.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3234 I'm looking at an MSDS for Duct Seal. This product is a dream come true from an energy conservation stand point, but we're haveing a difficult time deciphering the safety level. The chemical is a "proprietary blend" of acrylic esther emulsion. active ingredient is vinyl acetate copolymer with a PEL of 10 ppm. It also says this product is a stable dispersion of very small polymer particles in water, surfactants, hydrocolloid stabelizers, and minor amounts of inorganic salts. There are warnings about needing to use a respirator during installation, that it is an eye and skin irritant, but no information on how stable it is once it has dried. Is anyone familiar with this product? Sue Barnett Green Building Program -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 8 18:00:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA06278 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18312; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:49:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 May 1998 17:45:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA17872 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:45:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17850 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:44:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip01.ivnet.net [206.101.73.161]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24760; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:50:11 -0700 Message-ID: <355377FE.7B5057B6@ivnet.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 14:24:14 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Instant water heaters References: <1.5.4.32.19980506150829.006ae910@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3235 David F. Lambertson wrote: > > A bit ago I asked for use-response from those out there who have experience > with the several instant water heaters on the market. I received just one > response. I would appreciate hearing from others, so am trying again. > Thanks Sacie Lambertson >I've used or installed a few. Paloma seems to be the old standby around here. These are OK and reliable. I've also installed (and lived with) a Bosch unit. This has the advantage of sensing the temp of the incoming water, and modifying the gas consumption at the burner to prevent overheatingof the outgoing water. This is a niceness if the water has been preheated by a solar collector. Both of these units have the disadvantage of venting through a 5" or 6" vent through the roof. This is about as much fun as leaving the window open all winter. I've heard of venting systems for these things used in _really cold_ places like Alaska that deal with that, but that's as far as I've got on that angle. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 8 18:00:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA06283 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:00:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18327; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 May 1998 17:45:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA17882 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:45:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17867 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:45:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip01.ivnet.net [206.101.73.161]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24764; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:50:14 -0700 Message-ID: <35537B4F.EABFAA37@ivnet.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 14:38:23 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Regan Warner CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Roofing References: <3.0.32.19980506165425.0098cf88@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3236 Regan Warner wrote: > > - can I put a metal roof over shingles? > > > Also, the house is clad in white aluminum siding..which I hate. Under neath is a log home...which I like. Is there/Are there any valid reasons I should not rip the siding off? and what do I do with it if I do? > You can put a metal roof over old shingles, but you should put a layer of felt down first to avoid scatching up the back of the metal, and for good luck in case of a minor roof leak. Standing seam is nice, concealed fastener type is a big improvement. Expansion and contraction of metal roofs can work screws loose in exposed fastener types of roof. I've quit installing that type, 'cuz I hate going back to repair 'em. The aluminum siding may have some insulation behind it, which is likely to be about all the insulation you have on a log house. Also it may be helping to reduce air infiltration. The aluminum can be recycled, all the steel (nails mostly) should be removed. Bruce Donelson A BEtter Builder Takilma OR ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 8 18:15:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA06842 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:15:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA18928; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:04:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 May 1998 18:00:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA18704 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:00:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA18700 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:00:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip01.ivnet.net [206.101.73.161]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24881; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:05:42 -0700 Message-ID: <35537FF3.99159E9D@ivnet.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 14:58:12 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Sullivan CC: Green Building Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses References: <1317635049-808009@irisinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3237 Bruce Sullivan wrote: > > Our family is considering a move into a 100-year-old farm house. This > place surely has lead based paint (LBP). I have always understood LBP to > be a problem only when its flaking and falling off or if children are > gnawing on it. > > I was quite alarmed to read in The Home Environmental Sourcebook that > houses can remain contaminated long after the flakes are removed. The > book says that the dust containing lead can settle in the building. > Vacuuming and sweeping don't remove the dust, but only stir it up. Window > and door frames experience continuous friction that can wear down to > lower layers of LBP generating an ongoing source of dust. > > Furthermore, covering LBP with "regular" paint does not encapsulate the > lower layers. A special encapsulating paint is required. > > If this is true, it seems that any home built before the late 1970s could > be a serious health problem. Your thoughts please. > > Bruce S > Bruce, my understanding was that regular paint would encapsulate the LBP, unless children are gnawing on it or it is already flaking or chipping off. Another source of lead contamination can be the soil around the perimeter of the building, where the paint has been sanded or scraped and has fallen to the ground. Lead test kits are available in paint stores, you could probably test the soil. Old houses often have deficiencies in insulation, air infiltration, wiring, and foundations, too. Can be a project... Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma OR ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 8 19:47:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08518 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:47:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA21725; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:36:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 May 1998 19:32:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA21525 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA21518 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust53.tnt7.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.122.53]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA16687; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:39:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805082339.QAA16687@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Sender: wliebold@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 19:42:12 -0400 To: "Ed McNamara" , "GBlist" From: Warren Liebold Subject: Re: GBlist: Garbage disposals In-Reply-To: <199805072358.QAA06798@radius1.teleport.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3238 Let's see if I can do this w/o getting myself into trouble. The New York City Department of Environmental Protection completed a study of the impacts of Food Waste Disposal Units ("FWDU," the PC - that's Plumber-Correct name) last year. Several multifamily properties were selected and studied with the goals of trying to see if the solid waste stream went down, if sewer lines got clogged, if water consumption went up and if a model would show that widespread installation of FWDU's would result in a much higher nitrogen load on wastewater plants. The substantive impetus for the study was the Department of Sanitation's concern that the city would be required to implement composting in apartment buildings to meet recycling goals. They saw the eventual widespread installation of FWDU's as a way to be exempted from composting in apartment buildings. NYC has long banned FWDU's. The ban was listed in late 97 early at the end of the study. The issue comes down to just the choices you suggest - better to landfill organic waste or send it to a wastewater plant where some of it will end up in rivers, bays, oceans and part in sewage sludge? Then, what do you do with the sewage sludge? If you compost it, how much does that cost, compared to direct landfilling? If you send it directly into receiving waters, what's the impact? How many are being installed? A few ? Enough to have an impact? If you're talking about a non-urban setting, I'd say compost it and put it in your garden. If you're in a city w/ apartment buildings, you're confronted with the trade-offs I've listed. Warren Liebold PS - If you're really interested in the study, write to: Mark Lanaghan NYC Dept. of Environmental Protection 59-17 Junction Blvd - 19th Floor Corona, NY 11368 At 04:59 PM 5/7/98 -0700, Ed McNamara wrote: >Garbage disposals or landfill - which is better? > >I'm just finishing construction of a 144 unit apartment building which has >as many sustainable elements as I could work in. I've got my property >management company to commit to green management practices. > >Their staff has actually gotten excited about it and has put together a >nice flyer for tenants telling them what we did in construction, how >they're going to manage (recycled, non-chlorine bleach, vegetable ink >paper; biodegradable cleaning products; organic landscape maintenance; HVAC >maintenance program; etc.). > >The flyer encourages tenants to do their part to help. My question is - >should we encourage them to use garbage disposals as a way of reducing >landfill impact or discourage them to save water and sewage treatment? > >I'd appreciate any thoughts. Thanks! >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > Warren Liebold wliebold@earthlink.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 8 19:52:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08636 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:52:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA22045; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:41:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 May 1998 19:37:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA21784 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:37:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA21780 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:37:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ip11.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.30]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA173; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:45:32 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980508195938.006d58ec@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 19:59:38 -0400 To: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Duct Seal In-Reply-To: <5213208.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3239 At 04:31 PM 5/8/98 CDT, greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com wrote: >I'm looking at an MSDS for Duct Seal. > This product is a dream come true from an energy conservation stand point, >but we're haveing a difficult time deciphering the safety level. Sue: >From what I remember of the way things are meant to work, the manufacturer is obligated to give you an MSDS and, proprietary or not, the MSDS is supposed to give you the mixing ratio for each chemical along with the standard technobabble related to toxicity. Ask them. Once you have the chemical list, you can take a look at some of the nifty online databases at the EPA website (www.epa.gov) to get a clearer picture of the toxicity. Fair warning: it's not easy to estimate air concentrations from product data. If they say to use it in a well-ventilated area, that should mean windows open(!). ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 8 20:13:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA09043 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:13:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA22659; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 May 1998 19:58:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA22423 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:58:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22419 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:58:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip216.efn.org [204.214.97.216]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA07981 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:03:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert Bolman" To: Subject: GBlist: David Easton Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 16:55:48 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd7adc$d31c8f60$d861d6cc@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0026_01BD7AA2.26BDB760" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3240 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BD7AA2.26BDB760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anybody have email for David Eastin? Or better yet, a snail mail = address? Thank you, Robert Bolman ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BD7AA2.26BDB760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anybody have email for David = Eastin?  Or=20 better yet, a snail mail address?
 
Thank you,
 
Robert = Bolman
------=_NextPart_000_0026_01BD7AA2.26BDB760-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 8 21:47:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA10842 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:47:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24817; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:35:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 May 1998 21:31:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA24392 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24379 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.35] (blf35.acadia.net [205.217.217.35]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA25356 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:39:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 21:39:28 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Re: housewraps Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3241 Thanks to everyone for all the thoughts on housewraps, rainscreens, insulating sheathing, moisture control, etc. I always learn a lot from this group! One clarification: we are not using 8 inch studs. We are using 2x6 studs, then cross-strapped with 2x3's on edge, nailed with 16d galv nails, for a total wall thickness of 8 inches. The cross strapping helps somewhat with thermal bridging, and we continue to use relatively small sticks for wall construction. This is one of several wall-framing methods we work with, including double-stud and a load-bearing ladder truss that we devised. Thanks again to everyone. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 8 21:47:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA10843 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:47:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24811; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:35:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 May 1998 21:31:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA24386 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:31:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24378 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:31:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.35] (blf35.acadia.net [205.217.217.35]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA25343 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:39:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 21:39:24 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Garbage disposals Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3242 I'd like to second Bruce's comments about composting. Before you think that this would be an impractical option for an apartment building, consider the experience of Varis Bolkalders, a Swedish architect who managed to design convenient, much used composting bins into an apartment project about the size of this one. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 8 23:28:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA12898 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27012; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:17:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 May 1998 23:13:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA26782 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:13:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26777 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:13:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (st-ppp11.hevanet.com [198.5.254.185]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12585; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3553CB20.9A2D6461@hevanet.com> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 20:19:05 -0700 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Curt Nichols , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Buildings/Green Practices Win Awards for Portland Businesses References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3243 Hi, Curt-- So how come the city didn't give a BEST award to Pearl Court, a 5-story 199 unit affordable apartment building finished at $52 per square foot so that occupants pay only 40 to 60% of Portland median income, yet still managed to include U=0.35 windows, foam board wrap, electronic thermostats, CFL lighting, recycling stations, construction site recycling, and many more resource efficient features? What was it, chopped liver? Mike Curt Nichols wrote: > Green Building List__ > > One of the ways that green practices are promoted in Portland are our > annual BEST Business Awards. In the first five years, green buildings > such as the Rose Garden Arena, Norm Thompson Outfitters headquarters, > and the Belmont Diary mixed use redevelopment have won BEST awards. > Here's the news on this year's winners. > > FYI, > > Curt > > Curt Nichols > Portland Energy Office > _ _ _ _ _ _ > > 1998 BEST Business Award Winners Selected > at Annual Breakfast of Business Champions > > PORTLAND Six local businesses were recognized for their efforts to > save energy, conserve water, reduce and recycle waste, and promote > transportation alternatives at a breakfast today at the Benson Hotel. > Robin Cody, an award-winning local author, gave a presentation about > the importance of these kinds of actions by businesses. US > Representative Earl Blumaneuar (D-OR) was on hand to present each > winner with their award. > > This year's winners included two firms recognized for their energy > efficiency accomplishments. They were Boeing Commercial Airplane > Group and Lamb's Thriftway. There were also two winners in the waste > reduction category. They were Calbag Metals, Co and Cascade General, > Inc. Graphic Sciences, Inc won an award for water conservation and a > partnership effort between the Oregon Health Sciences University, the > VA Medical Center, and Shriners Children's Hospital was recognized > for their employee trip reducing transportation alternatives. > > BEST stands for Businesses for an Environmentally Sustainable Tomorrow > -- a service offered by the City of Portland to help local businesses > save money and benefit the environment at the same time. This year > was the sixth annual BEST awards event. The BEST Business Awards are > issued jointly by the City of Portland, the Association for Portland > Progress (APP), the Business Journal of Portland, and the > Environmental Federation of Oregon (EFO). City Commissioner Erik Sten > commented, "The efforts of these businesses -- and the winners from > prior years -- are helping to keep the Portland area both prosperous > and livable." > > Commissioner Sten, who oversees the Energy Office which manages the > BEST program, noted that the award-winning actions from all six year's > winners added up to an annual cost avoidance of more than $8 million > per year. He mentioned that those businesses were saving 370 million > gallons of water every year -- enough water to supply nearly 59,000 > typical homes for an entire month. "So, while the companies are > saving money, we're left with additional water to supply the growing > demands on our water supply system," he added. > > For more information on the services offered through the BEST program, > how to apply for the BEST Business Awards, or more details on this > year's winners, contact the Portland Energy Office at (503) 823-7222 > or visit their web site. BEST program information is available at > http://www.ci.portland.or.us/energy/web/bestmain.html. > > #### > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 8 23:38:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA13044 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:38:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27364; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:27:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 May 1998 23:23:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27171 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:23:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27167 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA29784; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:29:28 -0700 Message-ID: <3553CD42.4E907408@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 20:28:02 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@hevanet.com CC: Curt Nichols , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Buildings/Green Practices Win Awards for Portland Businesses References: <3553CB20.9A2D6461@hevanet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3244 Hi Michael Sounds like you could give us some more information. I for one would like to hear more as it sounds like a project that more than a few people spent more than a few unpaid late nights on. In other words it does sound inspiring and 'unstufflike' John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Michael O'Brien wrote: > Hi, Curt-- > > So how come the city didn't give a BEST award to Pearl Court, a 5-story > 199 unit affordable apartment building finished at $52 per square foot so > that occupants pay only 40 to 60% of Portland median income, yet still > managed to include U=0.35 windows, foam board wrap, electronic > thermostats, CFL lighting, recycling stations, construction site > recycling, and many more resource efficient features? What was it, > chopped liver? > > Mike > > Curt Nichols wrote: > > > Green Building List__ > > > > One of the ways that green practices are promoted in Portland are our > > annual BEST Business Awards. In the first five years, green buildings > > such as the Rose Garden Arena, Norm Thompson Outfitters headquarters, > > and the Belmont Diary mixed use redevelopment have won BEST awards. > > Here's the news on this year's winners. > > > > FYI, > > > > Curt > > > > Curt Nichols > > Portland Energy Office > > _ _ _ _ _ _ > > > > 1998 BEST Business Award Winners Selected > > at Annual Breakfast of Business Champions > > > > PORTLAND Six local businesses were recognized for their efforts to > > save energy, conserve water, reduce and recycle waste, and promote > > transportation alternatives at a breakfast today at the Benson Hotel. > > Robin Cody, an award-winning local author, gave a presentation about > > the importance of these kinds of actions by businesses. US > > Representative Earl Blumaneuar (D-OR) was on hand to present each > > winner with their award. > > > > This year's winners included two firms recognized for their energy > > efficiency accomplishments. They were Boeing Commercial Airplane > > Group and Lamb's Thriftway. There were also two winners in the waste > > reduction category. They were Calbag Metals, Co and Cascade General, > > Inc. Graphic Sciences, Inc won an award for water conservation and a > > partnership effort between the Oregon Health Sciences University, the > > VA Medical Center, and Shriners Children's Hospital was recognized > > for their employee trip reducing transportation alternatives. > > > > BEST stands for Businesses for an Environmentally Sustainable Tomorrow > > -- a service offered by the City of Portland to help local businesses > > save money and benefit the environment at the same time. This year > > was the sixth annual BEST awards event. The BEST Business Awards are > > issued jointly by the City of Portland, the Association for Portland > > Progress (APP), the Business Journal of Portland, and the > > Environmental Federation of Oregon (EFO). City Commissioner Erik Sten > > commented, "The efforts of these businesses -- and the winners from > > prior years -- are helping to keep the Portland area both prosperous > > and livable." > > > > Commissioner Sten, who oversees the Energy Office which manages the > > BEST program, noted that the award-winning actions from all six year's > > winners added up to an annual cost avoidance of more than $8 million > > per year. He mentioned that those businesses were saving 370 million > > gallons of water every year -- enough water to supply nearly 59,000 > > typical homes for an entire month. "So, while the companies are > > saving money, we're left with additional water to supply the growing > > demands on our water supply system," he added. > > > > For more information on the services offered through the BEST program, > > how to apply for the BEST Business Awards, or more details on this > > year's winners, contact the Portland Energy Office at (503) 823-7222 > > or visit their web site. BEST program information is available at > > http://www.ci.portland.or.us/energy/web/bestmain.html. > > > > #### > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 9 04:46:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA18113 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 04:46:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA02489; Sat, 9 May 1998 04:35:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 May 1998 04:19:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA02050 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 04:19:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.agoranet.be (mail.agoranet.be [194.119.249.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA02046 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 04:18:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wim.agoranet.be (gent02.agoranet.be [194.119.250.66]) by mail.agoranet.be (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA16441; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:26:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980509083210.00691424@mail.agoranet.be> X-Sender: wimdg@mail.agoranet.be (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 10:32:10 +0200 To: cneurath@northnet.org From: Wim De Groote Subject: Re: GBlist: treated wood and recycling Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3245 At 17:57 2/05/98 +0100, you wrote: >Michael, > >You asked for more details on "simple, economical alternatives" to treated >wood for decks.A simple alternative for a deck is a patio. (...) > >Cedar is a commonly available rot-resistant wood. It will cost twice as >much as CCA but I would guess that the labor costs of a deck would be about >half of the total cost, so using cedar would increase the overall cost not >by 100% but by maybe 50%. And when you try to figure in the long term >cost to the environment and society of spreading poisons around, it is not >difficult to imagine a net savings by using cedar. (...) > >Chris Neurath I hope you do not mean cedar from primary forests such as in British Columbia when you are talking about benefits for (nature and) the environment ? At least in Europe here, it is impossible to get certified cedar wood. That is why it should be a shame for any designer/architect (like many in Holland) who claims to be a "green designer" to use this wood in Europe (most for siding). Wim De Groote Energie Studies en Realisaties Gent, Belgium > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 9 08:40:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA21263 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 08:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA05783; Sat, 9 May 1998 08:29:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 May 1998 08:24:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA05556 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 08:23:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA05552 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 08:23:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA18890 for ; Sat, 09 May 1998 08:31:46 -0400 Message-id: <3237306@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 09 May 98 08:31:53 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: housewraps To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3246 --- You wrote: We are using 2x6 studs, then cross-strapped with 2x3's on edge, nailed with 16d galv nails, for a total wall thickness of 8 inches --- end of quote --- I've designed this into many projects over the years, (except using 2x2s usually, for 7 inch depth). It's a very good system. Best if all the strapping is run before the interior partition walls are framed. Ext. walls can be strapped, drywalled, and insulated, using full sheets of GWB. The strapping acts as the partition catch, no special framing in the 2x6 wall, and also is the channel for wiring. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 9 09:34:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22049 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 09:34:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06687; Sat, 9 May 1998 09:23:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 May 1998 09:19:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06372 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 09:19:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06368 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 09:19:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip82.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.82]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA30960; Sat, 9 May 1998 09:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980509132929.006d1c10@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 09:29:29 -0400 To: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Duct Seal Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3247 At 04:31 PM 5/8/1998 CDT, greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com wrote: >I'm looking at an MSDS for Duct Seal. > This product is a dream come true from an energy conservation stand point, >but we're haveing a difficult time deciphering the safety level. The duct mastic of choice is made by RCD - #6 is most commonly used in the home performance & retrofit industry. Water clean-up and no VOCs - it was 'discovered' by John Tooley in the early years of MAD Air & other duct diagnostics. RVD Corp. 2310 COolidge Ave, Orlando, FL 32804 407-422-0089 best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 9 13:31:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26795 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11433; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 May 1998 13:03:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA10961 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:03:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10954 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kathleen (pdx67-i48-08.teleport.com [204.202.172.22]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA10330; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805091711.KAA10330@mail1.teleport.com> From: "Ed McNamara" To: "John Salmen" , Cc: "Curt Nichols" , Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Buildings/Green Practices Win Awards for PortlandBusinesses Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:12:20 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3248 John - Here's a little more information on Pearl Court. I was the developer. Mike and Debbi Allen were environmental consultants to whom I am extremely grateful. Two minor corrections to Mike's info - 1) Total hard costs after spending all contingency were $66.70 per sf. Still much lower than comparable buildings here, but not quite $52/sf. (The finishes are very attractive. Most people seeing the outside or the lobby assume that it is upper-income apartments or condos.) 2) Windows were actually about U=0.31on the average. 3) Hey Mike! What about the continuous ventilation system? I don't think there were too many late nights on it and I don't think any of them were unpaid. If so, it wasn't because of environmental aspects. I'm a former nonprofit CDC director now working for a private developer. One reason I switched was to test my belief the that social and environmental values I held could be put into practice from the private sector. Pearl Court was my first project. To do this in a way that other develpers couldn't dismiss, I had to make sure the building looked good and was financially successful. I think it was. It was done on time and on budget. We made a nice fee. The contractor made a nice fee. It rented up at 50 units per month. The owner is a limited partnership we set up with the local housing authority as general partner. This ensures that the rents stay affordable for at least 60 years. the housing authority actually got a nice development fee and will get a substantial cash flow that will allow them to keep serving very low income tenants in other projects as the federal government withdraws their subsidies. On top of all that, we did the project with very little subsidy. Normally, the city puts about $15,000 - or more - of low-interest loans into apartments serving tenants at the 50-60% level. We used only $7,000 per unit. If other developers could do the same, the city could help support twice as much low-income housing with the same amount of money. Mike and Debbi tell me that the building incorporated a lot of good environmental features. I feel like we only scratched the surface of what can be done on large projects with little or no extra cost or effort. With their help, I learned a lot. My second project (144 units), which opens in August, does a little more. My third (113 units, some commercial), now on the drawing board, goes even a little further. If these two rent up as quickly as the first, other developers will have to start doing the same things on their projects. That's probably more than you wanted to know. Ed McNamara ---------- > From: John Salmen > To: obrien@hevanet.com > Cc: Curt Nichols ; greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Buildings/Green Practices Win Awards for PortlandBusinesses > Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 8:28 PM > > Hi Michael > > Sounds like you could give us some more information. I for one would like to > hear more as it sounds like a project that more than a few people spent more > than a few unpaid late nights on. In other words it does sound inspiring and > 'unstufflike' > > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S. > > Michael O'Brien wrote: > > > Hi, Curt-- > > > > So how come the city didn't give a BEST award to Pearl Court, a 5-story > > 199 unit affordable apartment building finished at $52 per square foot so > > that occupants pay only 40 to 60% of Portland median income, yet still > > managed to include U=0.35 windows, foam board wrap, electronic > > thermostats, CFL lighting, recycling stations, construction site > > recycling, and many more resource efficient features? What was it, > > chopped liver? > > > > Mike > > > > Curt Nichols wrote: > > > > > Green Building List__ > > > > > > One of the ways that green practices are promoted in Portland are our > > > annual BEST Business Awards. In the first five years, green buildings > > > such as the Rose Garden Arena, Norm Thompson Outfitters headquarters, > > > and the Belmont Diary mixed use redevelopment have won BEST awards. > > > Here's the news on this year's winners. > > > > > > FYI, > > > > > > Curt > > > > > > Curt Nichols > > > Portland Energy Office > > > _ _ _ _ _ _ > > > > > > 1998 BEST Business Award Winners Selected > > > at Annual Breakfast of Business Champions > > > > > > PORTLAND Six local businesses were recognized for their efforts to > > > save energy, conserve water, reduce and recycle waste, and promote > > > transportation alternatives at a breakfast today at the Benson Hotel. > > > Robin Cody, an award-winning local author, gave a presentation about > > > the importance of these kinds of actions by businesses. US > > > Representative Earl Blumaneuar (D-OR) was on hand to present each > > > winner with their award. > > > > > > This year's winners included two firms recognized for their energy > > > efficiency accomplishments. They were Boeing Commercial Airplane > > > Group and Lamb's Thriftway. There were also two winners in the waste > > > reduction category. They were Calbag Metals, Co and Cascade General, > > > Inc. Graphic Sciences, Inc won an award for water conservation and a > > > partnership effort between the Oregon Health Sciences University, the > > > VA Medical Center, and Shriners Children's Hospital was recognized > > > for their employee trip reducing transportation alternatives. > > > > > > BEST stands for Businesses for an Environmentally Sustainable Tomorrow > > > -- a service offered by the City of Portland to help local businesses > > > save money and benefit the environment at the same time. This year > > > was the sixth annual BEST awards event. The BEST Business Awards are > > > issued jointly by the City of Portland, the Association for Portland > > > Progress (APP), the Business Journal of Portland, and the > > > Environmental Federation of Oregon (EFO). City Commissioner Erik Sten > > > commented, "The efforts of these businesses -- and the winners from > > > prior years -- are helping to keep the Portland area both prosperous > > > and livable." > > > > > > Commissioner Sten, who oversees the Energy Office which manages the > > > BEST program, noted that the award-winning actions from all six year's > > > winners added up to an annual cost avoidance of more than $8 million > > > per year. He mentioned that those businesses were saving 370 million > > > gallons of water every year -- enough water to supply nearly 59,000 > > > typical homes for an entire month. "So, while the companies are > > > saving money, we're left with additional water to supply the growing > > > demands on our water supply system," he added. > > > > > > For more information on the services offered through the BEST program, > > > how to apply for the BEST Business Awards, or more details on this > > > year's winners, contact the Portland Energy Office at (503) 823-7222 > > > or visit their web site. BEST program information is available at > > > http://www.ci.portland.or.us/energy/web/bestmain.html. > > > > > > #### > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 9 15:15:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA28564 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 15:15:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13694; Sat, 9 May 1998 15:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 May 1998 14:52:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13314 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 14:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13310 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 14:51:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (br-ppp03.hevanet.com [198.5.254.209]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18303 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3554A6FD.B2D5318E@hevanet.com> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:57:08 -0700 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Clarify re Pearl Court Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3249 Hi, All-- Apparently I need to clarify my "chopped liver" post--someone thought it was a flame. It was intended as a humorous question, in the sense that Pearl Court was a pretty good building, not to be so easily overlooked. It's a common eastern ethnic expression. Next time, I'll add the smiley face emoticon ;^). Best, Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 9 23:48:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA09439 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:48:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA25750; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 May 1998 23:32:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25361 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:31:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.inreach.com ([209.142.0.209]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25357 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:31:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slininger (209-142-6-67.stk.inreach.net [209.142.6.67]) by mail.inreach.com (8.8.8/8.8.6/(InReach)) with ESMTP id UAA22478; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805100334.UAA22478@mail.inreach.com> Reply-To: From: "Kim Slininger" To: "Bruce" Cc: "green talk" Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 20:41:06 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3250 Problems may also come up during future remodeling projects. Usually it's nothing that a few truck loads of cubic dollars can't solve!!! According to the HUD guidelines, dealing with lead paint that will or could be disturbed that has a reading of .06 % by weight requires trained professionals. I had 480 sq. ft. of V groove ship lap siding, containing high Pb levels, removed from the Yosemite Valley Chapel. The abatement company contract was $3,200 and the independent third party that did the air and ground monitoring contract was $2,900.00. I hope you're sitting down for those figures, better than $12.70 a sq.ft.!!!! Lead paint is on par with asbestos as far as costs to abate and dispose of. The do-it-yourself swabs area a good starting point but, should not be relied on as they can produce up to 50% false positives or negatives, not really great odds when your family's health may be at risk. XRF's or Flame Testing are the only ways to get the absolute results. Taking paint chips (one tablespoon) and sending them out for flame absorption testing is the best answer for conclusive results. get all the paint to the substrate but don't take anything below the first layer, it also is weighted and may throw off the % by weight results. The next best is having someone come in with a XRF machine. The XRF is a device with a radioactive core that measures the lead in ALL the layers of the paint down to the substrate. The beauty of the XRF is it doesn't cause damage to the paint just for the sake of testing. Bottom line is this stuff can be expensive to get rid of. I have told you a horror story that the National Park Service is dealing with in the older structures that must be cared for and abated because of their historic structure classification. Your case may not be as severe because of the non-public exposure. Nonetheless, lead paint can cause health problems and is more evidence of our past willingness as a nation to forge ahead at any cost to put new "improved" products into the open market. Kim Slininger Yosemite Valley Buildings and Grounds Supervisor Yosemite National Park and Seven Generations Design, Owner ---------- > From: Bruce > To: Bruce Sullivan > Cc: Green Building > Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses > Date: Friday, May 08, 1998 2:58 PM > > Bruce Sullivan wrote: > > > > Our family is considering a move into a 100-year-old farm house. This > > place surely has lead based paint (LBP). I have always understood LBP to > > be a problem only when its flaking and falling off or if children are > > gnawing on it. > > > > I was quite alarmed to read in The Home Environmental Sourcebook that > > houses can remain contaminated long after the flakes are removed. The > > book says that the dust containing lead can settle in the building. > > Vacuuming and sweeping don't remove the dust, but only stir it up. Window > > and door frames experience continuous friction that can wear down to > > lower layers of LBP generating an ongoing source of dust. > > > > Furthermore, covering LBP with "regular" paint does not encapsulate the > > lower layers. A special encapsulating paint is required. > > > > If this is true, it seems that any home built before the late 1970s could > > be a serious health problem. Your thoughts please. > > > > Bruce S > > > Bruce, my understanding was that regular paint would encapsulate the > LBP, unless children are gnawing on it or it is already flaking or > chipping off. Another source of lead contamination can be the soil > around the perimeter of the building, where the paint has been sanded or > scraped and has fallen to the ground. Lead test kits are available in > paint stores, you could probably test the soil. > Old houses often have deficiencies in insulation, air infiltration, > wiring, and foundations, too. > Can be a project... > Bruce Donelson > A Better Builder > Takilma OR > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 10 09:18:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17503 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:18:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05941; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:07:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 10 May 1998 09:02:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05724 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:02:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alpha.wvup.wvnet.edu (alpha.wvup.wvnet.edu [129.71.54.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05720 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:02:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gregs-computer ([129.71.28.8]) by alpha.wvup.wvnet.edu with SMTP; Sun, 10 May 1998 9:10:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3555A3CC.3F0@alpha.wvup.wvnet.edu> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 08:55:40 -0400 From: Greg Boggs Reply-To: pkb00589@alpha.wvup.wvnet.edu Organization: Boggs Aviation X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Warren Liebold CC: Ed McNamara , GBlist Subject: Re: GBlist: Garbage disposals References: <199805082339.QAA16687@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3251 I have a 96 year old house where the outside paint has chipped off and has fallen onto the ground. Should I dig up and remove that dirt and replace with new? -Greg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 10 12:57:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20943 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10702; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:46:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 10 May 1998 12:42:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA10395 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:41:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dewdrop2.mindspring.com (dewdrop2.mindspring.com [207.69.200.82]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10391 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip16.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.16]) by dewdrop2.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA04432; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:49:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980510165222.006e05b0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:52:22 -0400 To: Hal Levin From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Duct Seal Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3252 Hal, lets step back, if there is something called 'Duct Seal', I don't know about it. Might some one enlighten me (us) ?? RCD makes a bunch of mastics - #6 is the preferable one for residential ductwork - like all energy retrofit materials it works, is effective based upon the installation. The only precaution on the data sheet is flush eyes if contact ... best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 10 14:02:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA22050 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12324; Sun, 10 May 1998 13:50:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 10 May 1998 13:47:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA12057 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 13:47:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12053 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 13:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip00.ivnet.net [206.101.73.160]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14671; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:52:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3555E67F.F9002EF1@ivnet.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:40:15 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wim De Groote CC: cneurath@northnet.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: treated wood and recycling References: <1.5.4.32.19980509083210.00691424@mail.agoranet.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3253 Wim De Groote wrote: > > At 17:57 2/05/98 +0100, you wrote: > >Michael, > > > >You asked for more details on "simple, economical alternatives" to treated > >wood for decks.A simple alternative for a deck is a patio. (...) > > > >Cedar is a commonly available rot-resistant wood. It will cost twice as > >much as CCA but I would guess that the labor costs of a deck would be about > >half of the total cost, so using cedar would increase the overall cost not > >by 100% but by maybe 50%. And when you try to figure in the long term > >cost to the environment and society of spreading poisons around, it is not > >difficult to imagine a net savings by using cedar. > (...) > > > >Chris Neurath > > I hope you do not mean cedar from primary forests such as in British > Columbia when you are talking about benefits for (nature and) the > environment ? At least in Europe here, it is impossible to get certified > cedar wood. That is why it should be a shame for any designer/architect > (like many in Holland) who claims to be a "green designer" to use this wood > in Europe (most for siding). > > Wim De Groote > Energie Studies en Realisaties > Gent, Belgium > > >Not to mention the associated cost for sealing the material. Even CCA-treated wood (or ACQ-treated, which I can obtain here by special order) will need a water repellant to prevent it from checking in the weather. When you consider the additional costs of treating the deck material before nailing it down, and then of resealing it every one to three years (depending on exposure) it doesn't take long before the new recycled composite decking materials start to look financially attractive. Even here in boonies most of the lumber yards are stocking Trex or ChoiceDeck or TimberTech(sp?). And their initial cost is about that of a good grade of cedar or redwood. I've had no trouble selling these recycled products to my customers. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma OR > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 10 14:18:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA22607 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12831; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:06:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 10 May 1998 14:03:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12592 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:03:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12586 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:03:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OUS00585; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:10:22 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: treated wood alt. Message-ID: <19980510.131049.2439.0.strawboss94@juno.com> References: <1.5.4.32.19980509083210.00691424@mail.agoranet.be> <3555E67F.F9002EF1@ivnet.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-10,15 From: strawboss94@juno.com (Twila x xxx) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 14:10:22 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3254 xx it doesn't take long before the >new recycled composite decking materials start to look financially >attractive. Even here in boonies most of the lumber yards are stocking >Trex or ChoiceDeck or TimberTech(sp?). And their initial cost is about >that of a good grade of cedar or redwood. I've had no trouble selling >these recycled products to my customers. >Bruce Donelson >A Better Builder >Takilma OR >> Bruce, I was given a couple pieces of TREX to consider. While I have noticed it bends almost like wet noodles when handling, I also am interested in why it is so heavy when wet. I tried to move a 2x6x12 and it felt like it was full of water more than regular lumber. One end of the 12' piece was under cover the other not. Speculation as to why? _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 10 15:28:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA23837 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:28:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14915; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:17:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 10 May 1998 15:14:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA14619 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:13:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA14612 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.254.3.125] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Sun, 10 May 1998 12:22:56 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Garbage disposals Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:21:03 -0700 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan cc: "GBlist" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1317319506-30395@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3255 >I have a 96 year old house where the outside paint has chipped off and >has fallen onto the ground. Should I dig up and remove that dirt and >replace with new? You should first get a soil test for lead. I suggest you contact the local environmental health agency or the cooperative extension service. I paid about $50 for a soil test about ten years ago. I can think of two issues that make the presence of lead in soil an immediate problem. First, you have young children that might put the soil in their mouths. (And then complain about whole wheat bread :-) Second, you plan to grow food in the soil. Others may be able to add to this list. When we tested ten years ago, we were told by the Cooperative Extension expert that there was no standard for lead in soil. He gave us typical levels for farm land. Our urban lot was ten times the farm level. He said that was very common, because of years of paint and air pollution from cars burning lead gasoline. Hope this helps. Bruce ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 10 22:40:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA02251 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:39:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA27377; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:28:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 10 May 1998 22:24:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA27049 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:24:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27045 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:24:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust13.tnt2.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.31.13]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id VAA01326; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:31:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3553BD04.2F83@gte.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 22:18:44 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ed McNamara CC: GBlist Subject: Re: GBlist: Garbage disposals References: <199805072358.QAA06798@radius1.teleport.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3256 Ed, For what it's worth, garbage disposals are banned in the Netherlands and Germany (and probably all of Europe.) The nitrogen loads are considered too strong for already stressed watersheds. Of course curbside collection of organics is common in both countries. In your case, if curbside is not avaiable, tenants might be interested in starting a vermiculture bin in the basement or parking garage. Do people have porches or window boxes in which they can do small scale gardening? It's certainly much easier going to the basement for compost than hauling around big bags of soil and wondering where to store the leftovers. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development http://sustainable.state.fl.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 11 12:41:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21351 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:41:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25965; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:30:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 May 1998 12:25:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA25467 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:25:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA25459 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.21] (blf21.acadia.net [205.217.217.21]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA04325 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:32:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:33:06 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: apartment project Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3257 Several people wrote with questions about the Swedish apartment project I mentioned, and about Varis Bokalders. I don't know of any documentation; however, Varis speaks excellent English and can be contacted at the Swedish Royal Institute of Technology - School of Architecture, Ostermalmsgaten 26, S-1044 Sweden,; telephone +46/8/790-8568, fax -8539. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 11 13:23:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22435 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:23:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28239; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:12:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 May 1998 13:08:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA27845 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA27841 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from RHDesign@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4WFBa14163; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:15:22 -0400 (EDT) From: RHDesign Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:15:22 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: BOBCADLE@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Dry Basement in Ohio Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3258 Greetings once again greenbuilding listers, (I'm back from a hiatus, trying to get some green building--well, green design--done...) My parents (in northeastern Ohio, in the snowbelt--Mentor, OH to be exact) would like to fix the wet basement in their 50 year old home. The foundation walls are uninsulated concrete block. As my dad related it, a contractor there proposed excavating three feet down (to the frost line?) around the outside of the house, patching cracks--including following cracks down to the footings, then waterproofing (dampproofing?) that portion of the wall. Inside, they'd saw-cut the slab around the entire perimeter, lay perforated pipe, connect the pipe to a standing sump (?), from there pump it to the storm sewer. Then, they'd put up plastic paneling of some sort over the block walls. (An "aesthetic" item.) Price for this work is $7,000. I assume downspouts are already (or will be) directed away from the house, and the grade slopes away at x5%. Questions: 1) Is this an appropriate approach for Ohio? Which approach in the Moisture Control Handbook would be best for a heating climate retrofit? 2) I don't understand why they would excavate and dampproof down just three feet. If they're excavating 3', why not go down to the footings and install the drain tile on the _outside_? (So mom & dad don't have to move the entire contents of the basement around...) Perhaps ground water under the slab is the issue, and the inside pipe would relieve capillary pressure? 3) Will the plastic paneling inhibit drying to the interior? (Maybe not if the wall is not insulated.) To get better energy performance out of the deal, would it be better to laminate rigid insulation (say 1 1/2" EPS) on the inside, then GWB over that? Or, the standard approach of furring out w/ 2x4s & batt insulation? 4) If this _is_ the best approach for Ohio, is $7,000 a fair price? It'd be high for Seattle. Thanks. Rob Harrison **** Robert Harrison Architects Seattle, WA http://members.aol.com/rhdesign --lyrical sustainable design-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 11 18:27:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA29483 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:27:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA13877; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 May 1998 18:12:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13553 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:11:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.38]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13549 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:11:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from IdahoCFM@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4YNWa04636 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:19:02 -0400 (EDT) From: IdahoCFM Message-ID: <1e7498f9.35577957@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:19:02 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: operable windows in commercial applications Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3259 I have an opportunity where a tenant is asking for operable windows but my HVAC consultant is telling stories of nightmares with his controls systems with operable windows. Does anybody have any experience with operable windows and their interactions with HVAC systems in a commercial application. I know that controls systems can be interlocked with window sensors but the cost seems to get pretty high when you get enough windows controlled to make much air flow difference. My hunch is that residential experience may not be valid here given the size of the group involved (3 or 4 vs 25+) but I'm looking for any input that anyone might have. Thanks, Chris Meyer Parkwood Business Properties ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 11 20:03:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA00763 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:03:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA18438; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 May 1998 19:47:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA17889 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:47:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA17881 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail2.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Mon, 11 May 1998 19:00:14 +0100 Date: Mon, 11 May 98 19:00:30 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: David Easton To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5219213.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3260 I have a phone number for David Easton: 707/224-2532 Sue Barnett Green Building Program City of Austin -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 11 20:03:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA00765 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:03:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA18436; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 May 1998 19:47:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA17903 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:47:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA17883 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:47:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail2.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Mon, 11 May 1998 19:00:18 +0100 Date: Mon, 11 May 98 19:00:31 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re(2): GBlist: Duct Seal To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5219223.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3261 This is neither caulking nor tape, it is an aerosol that is sprayed inside the duct. Thanks for the input, Yes I know about Tooley's research. This is something we are also just trying to determine if we should recommend. Sue -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 12 00:09:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA04817 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:09:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27136; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:55:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 May 1998 23:51:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA26890 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:50:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26883 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 23:50:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip14.ivnet.net [206.101.73.174]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA28280; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:55:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3557C7DF.6C93ECB4@ivnet.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:54:07 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Twila x xxx CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: treated wood alt. References: <1.5.4.32.19980509083210.00691424@mail.agoranet.be> <3555E67F.F9002EF1@ivnet.net> <19980510.131049.2439.0.strawboss94@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3262 Twila x xxx wrote: > > > >> > Bruce, I was given a couple pieces of TREX > to consider. While I have noticed it bends almost like wet noodles when > handling, I also am interested in why it is so heavy when wet. I tried to > move a 2x6x12 and it felt like it was full of water more than regular > lumber. One end of the 12' piece was under cover the other not. > Speculation as to why? > >Partly, Trex is just already damned heavy. A 16-foot piece makes me tired just to look at it. And it does absorb some water when it gets wet. According to the Trex people, that helps it to raise the "grain" when the wood fibers absorb the water, and this helps it to not be so slick. The wet noodles part means it will only span about 16", although I've spanned some of their 5/4 stuff 19" with no problems. ChoiceDeck has a rougher texture, is sort of hollowed out on the bottom, costs about the same, weighs lots less, and also spans about the same. TimberTech, or whatever its name is, costs more, spans farther, and interlocks, so the joints don't have to be over the joists, if I understand it right. I haven't used that one yet. It is really hollowed out on the bottom. They probably all soak up some water wwhen wet, but it doesn't seem to hurt the stuff any. I think they are all selling 4x4's and 2x2's etc. These can be used for railings etc., but can't be used to support any rea! ! l weight. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 12 01:07:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA05379 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA28658; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 May 1998 00:52:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA28392 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:51:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA28387 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA14563; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:57:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3557D652.EADFB8E8@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:55:46 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pkb00589@alpha.wvup.wvnet.edu, "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Garbage disposals References: <199805082339.QAA16687@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <3555A3CC.3F0@alpha.wvup.wvnet.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3263 I think there is a definite concern (a large part of a residential area of Toronto had its yards removed - very odd thing to witness - after studies showed a variety of problems with elevated lead levels in neighborhood children) Part of the problem however is the solution. Excavating the soil can create difficulties i.e. stuff getting airborne and increasing the area of or immediacy of contamination. There is potential for bioremediation with the soil left in place but that is a fairly new and probably inaccessible area of work to identify. What is being done in your area with lead removal from public buildings, etc.? The answer to that should give you an idea of the state of the art in your area. It may not be sufficient but it is a beginning. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Greg Boggs wrote: > I have a 96 year old house where the outside paint has chipped off and > has fallen onto the ground. Should I dig up and remove that dirt and > replace with new? > > -Greg > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 12 01:49:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA05749 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:49:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA29572; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:38:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 May 1998 01:34:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA29369 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:34:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA29365 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:34:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip186.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.186]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA27745; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:41:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980512054445.006e4404@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 01:44:45 -0400 To: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: Re(2): GBlist: Duct Seal Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3264 At 07:00 PM 5/11/1998 CDT, greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com wrote: >This is neither caulking nor tape, it is an aerosol that is sprayed inside the >duct. Who makes it, what are the duct testing parameters, when do they stop sealing, what about the rest of the house ?? Is it Aeroseal, out of TX (and LBL) ?? Is there such a thing or trade name/mark as "Duct Seal" ?? PS: 'Mastic' is not 'Caulking' - as active nouns or verbs they perform quite different functions, at least in the building/contracting trades. More please, we are very interested in Aeroseal - it seems to be in tune with contemporary building diagnostics, cost-effective (after the $20k initial outlay), the actual sealing material - I don't know zip doodle about. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY USA http://www.home-performance.org --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 12 09:54:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09398 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:54:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10482; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:43:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 May 1998 09:38:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10063 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:38:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10059 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:38:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id IAA0000001101; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:45:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980512134822.006a58e0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:48:22 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses Cc: sullivan@oak.oikos.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3265 Kind of late on the up swing here, it's interesting how the conversations on this list can wane and swing. I believe Massachusetts has one of the tougher laws regarding lead based paints and therefore would be a good place to inquire about the remedy for this problem. Anecdotally, from second hand experience I can relate to this hazard. When our son with his family moved to Nantucket to happily take a job related to his environmentally trained background, a portion of his pay was given in the form of reduced rent for a wonderful old farmhouse on the island. Unfortunately during minor renovations lead-based paint was found inside and it cost his commission a huge pile of money to scrape, sand and repaint the house. It is children who take the hit and the poison to their system is real and its effects last forever. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 12 10:37:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10023 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:37:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13078; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:26:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 May 1998 10:22:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12680 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:21:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from graytwo.jngray.com ([207.201.192.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12674 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by GRAYTWO with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:27:51 -0400 Message-ID: From: David Vickers To: greenbuilding@crest.org, "'David F. Lambertson'" Cc: sullivan@oak.oikos.com Subject: RE: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:27:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3266 Just a note concerning lead based paint in the soil. In lieu of removing the soil does anyone out there with a scientific bent know of a way to neutralize lead content? I know that certain types of stripper can be neutralized with low concentrations of an acid. This would help eliminate the problem of making the lead in soil airborne again. David W. Vickers email: dvickers@jngray.com James N. Gray Company 10 Quality Street Lexington, KY 40507-1450 > ---------- > From: David F. Lambertson[SMTP:dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 1998 6:48 AM > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Cc: sullivan@oak.oikos.com > Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses > > Kind of late on the up swing here, it's interesting how the > conversations on > this list can wane and swing. > I believe Massachusetts has one of the tougher laws regarding > lead > based paints and therefore would be a good place to inquire about the > remedy > for this problem. Anecdotally, from second hand > experience I > can relate to this hazard. When our son with his family moved to > Nantucket > to happily take a job related to his environmentally trained > background, a > portion of his pay was given in the form of reduced rent for a > wonderful old > farmhouse on the island. Unfortunately during minor renovations > lead-based > paint was found inside and it cost his commission a huge pile of money > to > scrape, sand and repaint the house. It is children who take the hit > and > the poison to their system is real and its effects last forever. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 12 10:57:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10305 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:57:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14252; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:46:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 May 1998 10:42:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13913 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:41:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13909 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:41:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust122.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.122]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id JAA22611; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:49:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3557BE5C.2159@gte.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 23:13:32 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: water conditioners References: <1.5.4.32.19980428041454.00717c64@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3267 Sacie, We bought the ClearWave and are at least moderately happy with it. The water here is hard @ 13 and when the old softener failed, the glassware got very milky and filmy. I thought it might be permanently ruined, but it came back just fine. The Clearwave is electromagnetic so doesn't have the slippery feel of over-softened water that I can't stand. Our assessment is made more difficult by the fact that our dishwasher did a meltdown a couple months after we installed the ClearWave. The heating coil failed to turn off one night and melted several plastic cutting boards, bowls, cups etc. It was like waking up in a toxic waste dump and we were lucky not to have a fire. I much prefer European dishwashers, where the heating coil is covered. I still notice some scaling on the fixtures, but I'm sure it's much less than we'd experience without the device. I found the price and lack of maintenance very appealing. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development http://sustainable.state.fl.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 12 11:37:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11125 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16851; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:26:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 May 1998 11:22:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16450 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:21:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16446 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:21:33 -0400 (EDT) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 8679 invoked by uid 0); 12 May 1998 15:30:42 -0000 Received: from ppp-12.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.205?) (198.175.11.205) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 12 May 1998 15:30:41 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:36:32 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: operable windows in commercial applications Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3268 Chris Meyer asked: ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:19:02 EDT From: IdahoCFM Subject: GBlist: operable windows in commercial applications I have an opportunity where a tenant is asking for operable windows but my HVAC consultant is telling stories of nightmares with his controls systems with operable windows. Does anybody have any experience with operable windows and their interactions with HVAC systems in a commercial application. I know that controls systems can be interlocked with window sensors but the cost seems to get pretty high when you get enough windows controlled to make much air flow difference. My hunch is that residential experience may not be valid here given the size of the group involved (3 or 4 vs 25+) but I'm looking for any input that anyone might have. Thanks, Chris Meyer Parkwood Business Properties ------------------------------------ Chris, I have no experience designing commercial buildings but I do have experience working in them that might be relevant. I've found that many HVAC systems do not do a good job even when all the windows are sealed. I have often found myself wanting to open a window to get adequate fresh air, even if that does mean energy lost etc. It can be almost impossible to fix HVAC problems in a specific place any other way. One building I was in had what seemed to be fixed windows, but it turned out that if you had a special key, some of them could be opened. That prevented people from taking things into their own hands (we could never allow that) and forced them to deal with the building superintendent if they wanted an open window. Seemed like a reasonable compromise between fascism and anarchy. Only the "initiated" even knew that windows were openable (they were well disguised to look like fixed windows), so I guess it was more like an oligarchy. Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 12 12:33:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA12152 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:33:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19894; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 May 1998 12:17:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19554 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19548 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 12:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail2.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Tue, 12 May 1998 11:29:42 +0100 Date: Tue, 12 May 98 11:30:06 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re(2): Re(2): GBlist: Duct Seal To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5221871.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3269 More... it's called "Duct Seal" manufactured by Puma Technologies, P.O. Box 6512, Ft. Worth TX 76115. Owner is Maurice J. Puma, phone on MSDS is 617/413-0088. Is this the same product that LBL/Mark Modeira came up with? Tim Locke has given me some information on that product, but I'm not sure whether it is the same thing. Thanks Sue Barnett Green Building Program City of Austin -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 12 13:33:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA13157 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 13:33:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23348; Tue, 12 May 1998 13:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 May 1998 13:17:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22993 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 13:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22989 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 13:17:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA25023; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:25:17 -0700 Message-Id: <3558863A.13A3@arb.ca.gov> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:26:18 -0700 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: CARB/Research Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Cc: "FUGLER, DON" <"dfugler"@cmhc-schl.gc.ca> (Don Fugler), MPModera@lbl.gov, "LEVIN, HAL" , tkelly@batelle.org Subject: GBlist: Duct Seal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3270 SUE: RE: your question on the safety of this method, Mark Modera et al. at Lawrence Berkely Natl. Laboratory developed this method. He can probably give you details on the sealant's composition, and perhaps on the tqxicity. Each of the specific compounds and the blowing agent should be assessed for toxicity and potential exposure levels, rather than just looking at the MSDS; the MSDS may be useful for assessing worker health and safety and hazardous waste handling, but not necessarily for assessing public health and safety. The LBNL aerosol-based duct sealing method is described at the web sites below. I haven't checked them out to see if they answer all or part of your queston. http://epb1.lbl.gov/aerosol/page0.htm and at http://eande.lbl.gov/CBS/NEWSLETTER/NL5/Duct.html Mark's contact info: Mark Modera Indoor Environment Program (510) 486-4678; Fax: (510) 486-6658 MPModera@lbl.gov Also, there may be some pertinent info from studies of blown-in foam insulation. I know application workers have had health problems with blowing in foam insulation (non-UFFI) in commercial buildings. The Natl. Institute of Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH, 800.35.NIOSH) can provide you with case studies and a literature search; they may have also produced a health advisory. I suspect the sealant cures fairly quickly, which would mean that toxic emissions would mainly be a problem during the application and curing phases, and should not be a problem if the applicators use respirators and the occupants do not re-enter until the product is cured. That's assuming that the sealant doesn't degrade or decay to cause particle release or somehow foster microbial growth. Mark can probably tell you how long those application and curing phases last. Finally, isocyanates would be one class of compounds to look out for. Polyurethane-type foams and caulks emit toluence diisocyanate (TDI, a carcinogen & potent irritant and allergic sensitizer) and/or other isocyanate isomers. However, TDI is very reactive and and adsorbs to building surfaces, so it does not stay in the air long after application. Please let us know what you find out! Best wishes, Tom -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 12 14:43:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA14181 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:43:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27499; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 May 1998 14:28:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27163 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27158 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:27:51 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OGE11135; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:33:09 EDT To: cneurath@northnet.org Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:48:04 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: operable windows in commercial applications Message-ID: <19980512.134941.4014.0.sbtauto@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,7-8,11-12,16-95 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3271 We have integrated whole house home control systems to HVAC and motorized windows in the past. We found that conflict only occurs when seperate controllers are used for the HVAC, windows and other home electrical systems. It is very difficult to interface discreet controllers together and have them all speak the same language. The most fundamental level of this problem is having all the controllers set at the same time. With a single whole house (office, building, structure) controller a single brain (in effect) can be responsible for the coordination and operation of all the electrical systems regardless of their function. Most PLC controllers can control up to 256 seperate receiver addresses and this doesn't even account for receivers set to redundant addresses. So the quantity of devices requiring coordinated control usually is not an issue. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.sbtdesigns.com On Tue, 12 May 1998 11:36:32 +0100 cneurath@northnet.org writes: >Chris Meyer asked: > >------------------------------ > >Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:19:02 EDT >From: IdahoCFM >Subject: GBlist: operable windows in commercial applications > >I have an opportunity where a tenant is asking for operable windows >but my >HVAC consultant is telling stories of nightmares with his controls >systems >with operable windows. > >Does anybody have any experience with operable windows and their >interactions >with HVAC systems in a commercial application. I know that controls >systems >can be interlocked with window sensors but the cost seems to get >pretty high >when you get enough windows controlled to make much air flow >difference. > >My hunch is that residential experience may not be valid here given >the size >of the group involved (3 or 4 vs 25+) but I'm looking for any input >that >anyone might have. > >Thanks, > >Chris Meyer >Parkwood Business Properties > >------------------------------------ > >Chris, > >I have no experience designing commercial buildings but I do have >experience working in them that might be relevant. I've found that >many >HVAC systems do not do a good job even when all the windows are >sealed. I >have often found myself wanting to open a window to get adequate fresh >air, >even if that does mean energy lost etc. It can be almost impossible >to fix >HVAC problems in a specific place any other way. One building I was >in had >what seemed to be fixed windows, but it turned out that if you had a >special key, some of them could be opened. That prevented people from >taking things into their own hands (we could never allow that) and >forced >them to deal with the building superintendent if they wanted an open >window. Seemed like a reasonable compromise between fascism and >anarchy. >Only the "initiated" even knew that windows were openable (they were >well >disguised to look like fixed windows), so I guess it was more like an >oligarchy. > >Chris > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 12 16:25:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA15708 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 16:25:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02693; Tue, 12 May 1998 16:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 May 1998 16:10:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02386 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 16:10:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02382 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 16:10:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id PAA0000016199; Tue, 12 May 1998 15:18:00 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980512202035.00695134@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:20:35 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Lumber from local woodlots Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3272 For those of you who are interested in using your own woodlots for building materials, the following is a very useful publication: Lumber from Local Woodlots (NRAES-27) from the NE Regional Agricultural Engineering Service, Cornell University, 152 Riley-Robb Hall, Ithica, NY 14853. ISBN 0-935817-09-3 And, as I mentioned before, I got it from the State Forestry people, so its a good bet your local office will have it too. The booklet discusses harvesting timber and sawing the logs into useful material, storing it and most importantly, selecting lumber for various building uses with a fairly comprehensive list (no Osage Orange) of species and their building-use characteristics. Sacie Lambertson. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 12 20:01:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA20104 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 20:01:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11754; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 May 1998 19:45:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11146 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA11140 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:45:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ip6.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.25]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA115 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:53:16 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980512200738.006da598@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:07:38 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: RE: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3273 At 10:27 AM 5/12/98 -0400, you wrote: >Just a note concerning lead based paint in the soil. In lieu of >removing the soil does anyone out there with a scientific bent know of a >way to neutralize lead content? David: Given the insideous nature of mercury, we could go for neutron bombardment. Not sure what energy levels would be appropriate to achieve nonexplosive fission. Not sure what it would do to the structural integrity of the foundations. But hey, if it works, bragging rights would drive the market. On a serious note, though. I doubt that any chemical fix would work with mercury-contaminated soil. It probably is better to excavate. But don't take it to a landfill. Roast it and condense the vapors. Should we form up a GB List proposal team to pitch this to EPA's SBIR? It could work for paint chips, too(!). ... Harry ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 12 22:54:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA22948 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:54:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA17260; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:43:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 May 1998 22:39:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA16859 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:39:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA16853 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:39:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ip28.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.47]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA158 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:47:39 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980512230203.006df1f8@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:02:03 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: RE: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980512200738.006da598@paltech.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3274 Oops. Must have plugged into a couple of dead cells. The mention of mercury was completely out of left field because I was remembering reading about its profligate use as a fungicide prior to WWI. This is a hazard that goes unrecognized in older homes. I've been told that it's not a good idea to use steam to remove incredibly old wallpaper because the paste is likely to be laced with mercury. Neutron bombardment would still be fun for lead abatement, though. It's only Tuesday, but it's been a long week. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 12 23:07:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA23101 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:07:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA18026; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:56:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 May 1998 22:52:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17588 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17583 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:52:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.15] (blf26.acadia.net [205.217.217.26]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA21857 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:59:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:00:14 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: TREX and alternates Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3275 Has anyone seen an Material Safety Data Sheet on Trex or its competitors? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 12 23:07:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA23106 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:07:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA18034; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 May 1998 22:52:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17600 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:52:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17595 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:52:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.15] (blf26.acadia.net [205.217.217.26]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA21869 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:59:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:00:17 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead in the soil Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3276 An apparently true story from Oliver Drerup, a Canadian buildier who builds for chemically sensitive people: A group of Harvard students decided to help make a community garden in Roxbury, a poor section of Boston. They decided to test the soil in the vacant lot they'd chosen. The lead numbers came back extremely high - so high that the Boston Dept. of Public Health asked them to sample the soil in a grid of 1 foot square blocks. Some of the squares stood out as "dots" with very high lead numbers. If you connected the dots, you saw the footprint of the house which used to stand on the site - the outside of which had been painted with lead paint. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 12 23:50:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA23684 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA19430; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 May 1998 23:35:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA19193 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:35:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.42]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19189 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Strawnet@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4ETPa18945 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:42:55 +2000 (EDT) From: Strawnet Message-ID: <89159384.355916c2@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:42:55 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: sustainability and building codes Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Claris Emailer v1.0 sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3277 Allow me to introduce myself, for those who may not already know me. I'm David Eisenberg, Co-Director of the Development Center for Appropriate Technology (DCAT) in Tucson, Arizona. I've been involved in many things over the past few years like straw bale construction and efforts to gain acceptance in building codes for it and many other "alternative" building materials and systems. It is the latter that has taken more and more of my time and attention, and that of DCAT's as well. And it has led to a much larger field of work that I will describe below. I am writing to ask three questions and explore a possibility with what I consider to be one of the more enlightened and dedicated groups of people on the internet as far as sustainable building and development are concerned. I hope this doesn't offend anyone or interrupt the always interesting and useful flow of information and ideas on this list. But I'm compelled to ask these questions: 1. Do those of you who make your living doing work related to the field of green building, sustainable design, engineering, construction, development and production of green building materials, sustainable development, consulting, etc. believe that building codes and regulations are an impediment to the best and most sustainable practices? In other words do you run into codes or regulatory barriers which keep you from doing the right thing? 2. Are you aware that the process is well underway to develop a single national building code (actually a family of codes) for the U.S., called, naturally enough, the International Building Code (IBC). These codes are called "International" because they are intended to be used internationally and will certainly have international impacts. Yet they are being developed without international participation or any context related to the disasterous impacts that the widespread implementation of mainstream U.S. building practices worldwide would cause. I recently attended the First Draft Code Change Hearings for the IBC in Alexandria, Virginia. Eleven straight very long days of hearings on the whole spectrum of proposed changes to this code, from occupancy, to egress, to wood, concrete, steel, masonry, fire, and on and on. This was the ultimate microscopic view of the world through codes. And in all those hundreds of hours of very intelligent and careful detailed discussion, I never once heard mention of resource issues, or environmental impacts. No mention of economics beyond the cries of specific industries claiming that changes would cause them grievous financial harm or NAHB talking about the inability of builders to make a profit or people to be able to afford a home. No mention of social or cultural issues and little attention to issues of location other than the way the codes address them now in terms of local climate, seismic or soil conditions. Represented at these hearings were all the industrial and commercial interests, timber, iron and steel, concrete, gypsum, masonry, manufacturers, insurance, building owners, and on and on. Absent was the green building community. No AIA Committee on the Environment, no US Green Building Council, no environmental organizations, resource conservation organizations, sustainable development firms, green product manufacturers, green consultants...well, you get the idea. This process is ongoing, will have enormous impacts on how buildings must be built, what won't be allowed, and this community is not involved in the game. This has become more and more of my focus over the past couple of years, developing relationships with code officials, delving into the nature of different kinds of codes and learning about the organizations and processes by which codes are developed and changed. And we are making some progress through our presentations and writing and work with other organizations. But it has been very difficult to get funding for this work and we have done most of it on a tiny budget when there was one at all. And we are in need, right now, of support or it will be me alone again at DCAT doing this work and self funding my travel, etc. I hate to see the two other people who have been working here on this along side of me, Joelee Joyce, my Co-Director, and our newer partner in this work, Tony Novelli, out looking for other work, because there isn't money to carry on this effort. But that is what we face right now. So this brings me to my third question. Do you think it's important for someone to be going into the middle of the process that gives us the codes and regulations that we all have to deal with everyday, to try to introduce a much larger context for those codes? If you do, and if you are interested in helping with this effort, both by becoming involved and by contributing to the financial support of the work, please contact us at DCAT. We are a 501 (c)(3) non-profit organization, so donations are tax-deductible and we have $20,000 left of a $30,000 matching grant from the Turner Foundation that we can have when we raise $20,000 more dollars. So your contributions can be doubled. If you are interested, I can post a couple of things to this list. One is a paper on sustainability and building codes that I wrote last year and the other is a concept paper we developed as part of our effort to fund this work. In January we held the Planning Summit for Sustainable Building Codes in Hesperia, California. It was a successful gathering of about 65 people from very diverse backgrounds and it was a beginning. Our efforts to continue and to build on that beginning are jeopardized by the lack of support for this work. I look forward to hearing from you and if I am a bit slow in responding to you it's because we are doing way too much with way too little. But I'm in this for the long haul. Thanks for taking the time to read this and for any support you may be able to offer. David Eisenberg David Eisenberg Co-Director Development Center for Appropriate Technology (DCAT) Mailing address: PLEASE NOTE NEW ADDRESS: P.O. Box 27513, Tucson, Arizona 85726-7513 Office address: 2105 E. 32nd St., Tucson, AZ 85713 Phone: 520-624-6628 Fax: 520-798-3701 E-mail:dcat@azstarnet.com (direct/personal e-mail: strawnet@aol.com) Website: http://www.azstarnet.com/~dcat ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 12 23:56:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA23735 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:56:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA19784; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:45:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 May 1998 23:41:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA19523 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:41:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from island.islandnet.com (island.islandnet.com [199.175.106.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA19513 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by island.islandnet.com id m0yZSXO-000FacC for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 12 May 1998 20:49:02 -0700 (PDT) From: jberry@islandnet.com (Jonathan Berry) Newsgroups: gbuild To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Black Locust Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:19:14 -0700 Organization: A Pawn is a Pawn Message-ID: Lines: 16 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3278 What are the building properties of Black Locust (Robinia Pseudoacacia) lumber? These are the standard trees with white blossoms. They're not native to here (Nanaimo, BC, Canada). We have some that are about 100 years old; there is no locust borer here so they are sound, except for some rot. I read that they were used as trunnels (tree-nails, dowels) in shipbuilding; are there any less exotic uses for the wood? Long-lasting posts in the ground? Window frames? ??? Any idea of the value of the wood? -- cheers, Jonathan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 00:51:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA24276 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 00:51:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA21343; Wed, 13 May 1998 00:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 00:36:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA21112 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 00:35:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA21108 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 00:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sa3-p57.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.121]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id AAA18847 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 00:43:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <355923B9.5913@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:38:17 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Black Locust References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3279 Jonathan Berry wrote: > > What are the building properties of Black Locust (Robinia > Pseudoacacia) lumber? \ Excellant ground contact wood; a medium heavy, dense wood, machines and finishes well. Good for cabinet faces, furnture, flooring, paneling; I wouldn't use it for sash work though. Although it is relatively stable once dried, I'm not sure it is stable enough for windows, they are subject to a great deal climatic stress. Extremely strong and stiff, might be good used in the Australian framing configuration posted here a while back. > > Any idea of the value of the wood? That would vary by season and geography, it would most likely run similar in price to White Ash or Red Oak, $1,650-1,950 per thousand wholesale, perhaps more. A timber cruiser isn't going to pay you half of that on the stump. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 09:28:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA29067 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03003; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:16:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 09:12:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02728 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:12:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02719 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA01633; Wed, 13 May 1998 06:17:40 -0700 Message-ID: <35599D22.59E91560@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 06:16:18 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead in the soil: bio/phyto remediation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3280 I mentioned bioremediation as a process where lead could be degraded on site without soil removal. A similar or companion process that has had success with metals is called phtoremediation where plants are used to absorb and accumulate the metals. Mustard greens were used to accumulate lead in a playground with success. In using a process like this it would be nice to have some information to work with such as the level of contamination (to measure success of extraction against). Plants will accumulate a small percentage of their weight so you can imagine that it will take a lot of plantings in succession to affect removal and you will have to find a method of disposal (or preferably recycling) for the plant material. I think tomatoes are also lead accumulators. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. David M. Foley wrote: > An apparently true story from Oliver Drerup, a Canadian buildier who builds > for chemically sensitive people: > > A group of Harvard students decided to help make a community garden in > Roxbury, a poor section of Boston. They decided to test the soil in the > vacant lot they'd chosen. The lead numbers came back extremely high - so > high that the Boston Dept. of Public Health asked them to sample the soil > in a grid of 1 foot square blocks. Some of the squares stood out as "dots" > with very high lead numbers. If you connected the dots, you saw the > footprint of the house which used to stand on the site - the outside of > which had been painted with lead paint. > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 10:05:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29681 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:05:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05446; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:54:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 09:50:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05081 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05077 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id JmX20700; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:57:17 EDT To: mcshea1@gte.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:28:53 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: water conditioners Message-ID: <19980513.100109.6638.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <1.5.4.32.19980428041454.00717c64@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-6,10-11,14-18 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3281 Cindy et al, Re: you recent posting on Clearwave, you mention that when you had the meltdown in your dishwasher it included "several plastic cutting boards..." I am surprised that someone so environmentally concerned has not read the research concerning plastic vs. wood cutting boards. Tests done comparing the two types for bacteria growth showed that meat juices left overnight grew bacteria many times over in the plastic board while something in the wood acted as a natural bacteriacide. The difference was astounding. Considering that the current issue of E Magazine is largely devoted to the problems with the meat industry I would think this would be of importance to note. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 10:09:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29762 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:09:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05758; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:57:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 09:54:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05365 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:54:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05356 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from StudioArc@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4UQYa15838 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:01:15 -0400 (EDT) From: StudioArc Message-ID: <40cc1c2c.3559a7ad@aol.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:01:15 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: An apparently true story from Oliver Drerup Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3282 I am VERY suspicious of the apparently true story about the lead contamination outlining the demolished house site: If you have ever seen a house demolished you know that the dirt gets turned up and moved around every which way, then re-graded when the destruction is done. This sounds like an urban myth to me. I would be interested in seeing any documentation. Mark Wynnemer Studio Architects ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 10:12:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29813 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:12:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06001; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:00:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 09:57:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05657 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:57:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05653 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12409 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:04:58 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:05:03 EDT From: John Straube Reply-To: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Operable Windows in Commercial Buildings To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3283 I have had this question asked of me so often. When I tell students that most office towers are air conditioning all winter long, they say "Why not open a window?". I dont have a lot of answers. I might point out that a number of European commerical buildings (in the hundreds) have been built with operable windows, as much to give people some personal control as to reduce A/C costs. There are the obvious problems like cold drafts, but at least we could open them in Spring in Fall, right? Of course, simple pretempering of the air could be easily accomplished using exhaust air in above ceiling units, and I think there are some HRV's for above suspended ceiling use. Clearly, an unit that recovers moisture from the exhaust and not the heat is what is needed. Why is it so impossible to allow fresh, cool air in through the exterior enclosure, using operable windows, filtered vents, above ceiling ducts to reach the core, etc. I'd like some good numbers so I can explain it to the many inquiring minds how ask, perplexed, why we need to air condition when it is well below freezing, while heating convector units at the walls at the same time? Surely, with the well-insulated window units available today the temperature through the office is pretty uniform? Cant fresh air be connected to the normal air ducts at each floor, with air intake and exhaust at each floor rather than at the top or bottom? But what do the mechanical engineers have to say? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 11:01:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01117 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:01:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08338; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:49:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 10:46:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07960 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:45:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07954 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:45:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:52:10 -0400 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF1355A5@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: GBlist: E Magazine Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:42:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3284 Beverly, Can you provide some details about E Magazine? I don't think I am familiar with it. I have seen "Environment" and "Environmental Design and Construction" and of course EBN... Are there some other periodicals and/or other lists the GBlisters recommend for a green builder ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Drew George, Bovis Green Building Champion 11 Lincoln Parkway, Annapolis MD 21401 Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 11:04:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01224 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:04:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08701; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:53:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 10:49:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08250 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:49:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nov.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08242 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:49:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.104] (p104.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.104]) by nov.diac.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA18693 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:54:56 GMT Message-Id: <199805131254.MAA18693@nov.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: sustainability and building codes Date: Wed, 13 May 98 09:00:02 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3285 Strawnet wrote (in part): >2. Are you aware that the process is well underway to develop a single >national building code (actually a family of codes) for the U.S., called, >naturally enough, the International Building Code (IBC). These codes are >called "International" because they are intended to be used >internationally and will certainly have international impacts. Yet they >are being developed without international participation or any context >related to the disasterous impacts that the widespread implementation of >mainstream U.S. building practices worldwide would cause. I recently >attended the First Draft Code Change Hearings for the IBC in Alexandria, >Virginia. Eleven straight very long days of hearings on the whole >spectrum of proposed changes to this code, from occupancy, to egress, to >wood, concrete, steel, masonry, fire, and on and on. This was the >ultimate microscopic view of the world through codes. And in all those >hundreds of hours of very intelligent and careful detailed discussion, I >never once heard mention of resource issues, or environmental impacts. >No mention of economics beyond the cries of specific industries claiming >that changes would cause them grievous financial harm or NAHB talking >about the inability of builders to make a profit or people to be able to >afford a home. No mention of social or cultural issues and little >attention to issues of location other than the way the codes address them >now in terms of local climate, seismic or soil conditions. I believe David Eisenberg's post regarding building codes raises an extremely important issue. While we all work on the micro level for improved quality of construction, and discuss the minutiae of greenbuilding practices, others are working on the macro level - and as David pointed out, their goals are completely different than ours. And yet while we work on a client-client basis, their work will affect millions of people. The discussion on this List, quite naturally, considering who's on it, consists almost entirely of engineering solutions to problems. And yet, in my experience, it is the political and financial systems that present the real barriers to green construction; for the most part, the engineering solutions are not that difficult. One huge example out of many, is the case of passive solar heating in new residential construction. The principles of passive solar have been obvious and well understood for decades, and yet 95% of new homes ignore this very simple, easy, and yet very impactfull principle. Why? Not because of a lack of research or knowledge, but because the political, social, and financial systems do not support it. Therefor, I support paying a greater deal of attention to the macro level of what we are trying to do. Building Codes have a huge impact on how decisions are made; far more than anything we will ever say or write (or e-mail). I would like to see some of the national organizations that do support greenbuilding become involved in the creation of new codes. Buzz Burrell Bolder Building Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 11:30:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01683 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:30:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10350; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 11:15:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10009 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:15:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ci.portland.or.us (pdxnet.ci.portland.or.us [207.109.34.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10005 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:15:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linux1.bis.city (root@linux1.bis.city [10.80.1.15]) by ci.portland.or.us (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA36286 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:18:12 -0700 Received: from issd1.bis.city (issd1.bis.city [10.80.1.16]) by linux1.bis.city (8.7.3/8.7.1) with SMTP id IAA10481 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:21:36 -0700 Received: from Portland-Message_Server by issd1.bis.city with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:23:53 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:27:53 -0700 From: Curt Nichols To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: E Magazine -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3286 Drew__ You asked "Are there some other periodicals and/or other lists the GBlisters recommend for a green builder?" I'd like to suggest "Energy Design Update". It is a monthly newsletter on energy-efficient housing from Cutter Information Corp. Their offices are at 235 W 102nd St, #7J, New York, NY 10025. Their phone number is (212) 662-7428 or you may be able to contact them through the Cutter web site, www.cutter.com And, I'm interested to hear the suggestions of others also. Curt Curt Nichols Portland Energy Office ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 11:42:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA02055 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11458; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:31:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 11:27:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA11026 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:27:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linguist (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11006 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:27:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.80] (ka2-80.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.80]) by linguist (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id LAA09883 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:35:18 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-Id: Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:31:34 -0400 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Well Pump Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id LAA11021 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3287 Hallo, all. I have a well which sometimes overflows all by itself and sometimes is just a few feet below ground level. I'm looking for a pump for it. I'd like the pump to put as much water as possible into the nearby pond, or at least have that option. The well refreshes at a rate of 20 gallons per minute. Because I don't have to lift the water high at all, just pressurize it for the house, I'm looking for a 110V to 120V pump which will do 20 gpm. I don't know if such a thing exists. My local plumbing supply places can get me a Jacuzzi pump or a Gould pump which will do about 10 gpm. But I thought I'd ask before I went with it if anyone out there has seen something more suited to my purposes? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 13:35:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03788 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:35:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19783; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:24:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 13:18:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19305 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:18:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19301 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:18:30 -0400 (EDT) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 10906 invoked by uid 0); 13 May 1998 17:27:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?198.175.11.211?) (198.175.11.211) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 13 May 1998 17:27:39 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:33:26 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3288 Just a few thoughts on lead in soil surrounding houses ... inspired by Harry Rector's neutron bombardment post. I seem to remember reading some of the Massachusetts lead abatement literature. One thing I think they suggest is paving over it. Not very aesthetic, but if you're in a city or suburb and would rather have a basketball court or big driveway instead of a lawn, it might actually help. I've also read that a large portion of the lead that children ingest comes from lead tracked in with dirt and then caught in interior carpeting. They crawl around on it and then put their fingers in their mouths. So, short of eliminating carpets or requiring everyone to take off shoes at the entrance (which might be the cheapest solution), covering up the soil around the house might be very effective. If not asphalt, then just several inches of clean soil, or those landscaping wood chips if the house is surrounded by shrubs already. A lot cheaper than hauling away all the soil, and it might work just as well. Neutron bombardment also got me wondering about chemical methods of fixing the lead in a non-toxic form. I know incinerator operators try to mix incinerator ash with phosphoric acid to make an insoluble form of lead so that the ash will pass leaching tests, but I'm not sure whether there are any chemical compounds with lead that are less toxic or less absorbable in humans. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 12:29:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03097 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14732; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:18:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 12:14:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14446 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14442 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA8-p59.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.251]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA06885 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3559C759.7883@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:16:25 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Sustainability and building codes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3289 David wrote: "If you are interested, I can post a couple of things to this list. One is a paper on sustainability and building codes that I wrote last year and the other is a concept paper we developed as part of our effort to fund this work." I, for one, would like to see both, if there isn't enough interest to post them here, then I would appreciate your sending them directly to me. If they can be zipped and sent as an attachment, those on the list who are interested can open them and those not, can delete without opening them. Does that work Bruce? While fund raising in this forum is new to me, I'm not sure how else you could contact this constituancy. I would rather get this pitch here, than have my name sold for solicitation purposes. If your agenda is atuned to that of this list, then I think you will probably find this group interested in your plight. While I have never had any problem getting the job done because of codes conflicts, I would still like to see people with a Green agenda involved in the process of developing new codes. Even if the codes aren't directly antithetical to the process, there is certainly much that could be done to encourage Green practices. Margo, wasn't this the meeting you attended? Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 13:19:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03622 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18759; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 13:04:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18409 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18400 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:04:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA16045; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:12:10 -0700 Message-Id: <3559D48A.2E9@arb.ca.gov> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:13:09 -0700 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: CARB/Research Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Cc: IdahoCFM@aol.com, "OSBORN, DON" Subject: GBlist: operable windows in commercial applications Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3290 CHRIS: operable windows have been considered for some newer state bldgs. in California, but not implemented due to potential cost and lack of data/experience. I heard that the Sacramento Municipal Utility District has had some experience with this in their new office building, and it has not been satisfactory because of difficulty in balancing and controlling air flows (contact Don Osborn, see cc above). The University of California Davis (James Meyer bldg.?) and perhaps other UC campuses have tried this approach too; contact the architects and bldg. managers at each campus and at the UC offices in Oakland). Also, operable windows are probably not appropriate for urban settings where pollution at street level (and sometimes higher) would easily enter the building through open windows. Operable windows (by the bldg. mgr. only) are required in the current building energy standards for California (Calif. Energy Commission, Title 24 regulations, ventilation in nonresidential bldgs, 916.654.4287). This was added in the last round, circa 1992, in order to facilitate flushing of new or remodeled buildings without spreading VOCs and other contaminants into the HVAC system and other parts of the building; this feature could also be used during episodes of indoor pollution. Hope this helps, Tom -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 12:41:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03243 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:41:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15851; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:29:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 12:26:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15360 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:25:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15353 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:25:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail2.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Wed, 13 May 1998 11:38:48 +0100 Date: Wed, 13 May 98 11:39:10 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: Black Locust To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5224142.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3291 Traditionally Black Locust has been used for fence posts. It is naturally resistant to rot. It has also been used for decking but I gather is not very easy to work with as decking because of irregularities and small dimensions. Sue Barnett City of Austin Green Building Program -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 12:33:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03154 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:33:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15109; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:21:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 12:18:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14740 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14736 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA07032; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:23:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3559C8BF.26E9153A@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:22:23 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Buzz Burrell CC: GreenBuilding List Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: sustainability and building codes References: <199805131254.MAA18693@nov.diac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3292 As a canuck I object to the term international included in a 'national building code' but then given the context of international trade and the growing role it is playing in determining even the most minute of local policies the term is at least realistic. It has not been difficult to see the writing on the wall. Increasingly the companies that produce products are becoming the arbiters of safety and definition for those products as independent labs become less willing to extend certification and consumer influence is more about consumers being influenced and is relegated to the advertising department. The more localized departments that create or implement building codes or standards are being downsized or eradicated. As buildings become a series of pre-inspected or engineered components the process of inspection or codes themselves become increasingly irrelevant. So what is the significance of these events? What are the drawbacks or benefits. The only benefit I can see is that codes will become increasingly tied to performance. This is a limited benefit if performance becomes defined by products used (remember the 'stuff' post and the question as to why there is so much discussion on this list about 'stuff' - what else is there?) In such a scenario stepping outside trade definition of performance you enter an exclusive and expensive realm of defining a building using various consultative sources such as engineers, etc. Sort of a bad fit off the shelf versus the tailored version - but realistically that has been the case for quite some time. Some of the drawbacks are obvious, some are more insidious. My opinion is that the marketplace or trade is too cumbersome and slow a process for defining what is good, bad or useful in technology and its perspective is too short term. The kind of critical definition that was applied to government bureaucratic practice I think can equally be applied to the corporate world. There is also the concern that the practice is subject to negative influence. I imagine interpreting this depends on which side of the rails you live on but I would say that most of the influences i.e. economic self-interest are not positive for the long term. As to Buzz's comments I think if we can define with some agreement what we are critical of then we might play a role. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Buzz Burrell wrote: > Therefor, I support paying a greater deal of attention to the macro level > of what we are trying to do. Building Codes have a huge impact on how > decisions are made; far more than anything we will ever say or write (or > e-mail). I would like to see some of the national organizations that do > support greenbuilding become involved in the creation of new codes. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 13:11:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03564 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18058; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:59:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 12:56:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17483 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:55:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17472; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:55:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA00331; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:02:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md11-37.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.165) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma000227; Wed May 13 12:02:16 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980513130051.00754e34@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:00:55 -0400 To: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: 6th National Conference on Building Commissioning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3293 Announcing The 6th National Conference on Building Commissioning May 18-20, 1998 The 6th National Conference on Building Commissioning will be held May 18-20 at the Walt Disney World Coronado Springs Resort in Lake Buena Vista, Florida. The conference will focus on commissioning and sustainability, how to successfully procure and manage commissioning services, and the latest commissioning tools and trends. For the first time in the history of the NCBC, we are offering site tours on a limited, first-come-first-serve basis. Scot Parsons, P.E., Senior Mechanical Engineer for Walt Disney World's Facility Asset Management Group will conduct a behind-the-scenes tour of the living Seas Pavilion at EPCOT Center on Wednesday morning. This tour will include the 40,000,000 gallon water tank that holds sea life found around a tropical reef. The tour will also include a look at the animal care areas, the training and research areas, and a walkthrough of the backstage operational areas. It will provide a view of the underwater life and what it takes to make the "Disney Magic" from a perspective that the public never sees. Limited conference space is still available. Register today for the conference and site tour by calling PECI at (503) 248-4636 ext 208. ********************************* Original post by: e design Online More energy and environmental meetings: ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 12:56:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03423 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16775; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:45:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 12:41:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16465 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16458 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:41:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LitHowie@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id WOYPa18657; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:48:34 -0400 (EDT) From: LitHowie Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:48:34 EDT To: jberry@islandnet.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Black Locust Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3294 In a message dated 98-05-12 23:51:02 EDT, jberry@islandnet.com writes: << Long-lasting posts in the ground? >> I copied a table from a book on barn and shed building (sorry I have no reference as to the title of the book this came from). The table was titled, Estimated Life of Untreated Wood Posts, (diameter 5 to 6 inches in size). They listed Black Locust and Osage Orange as lasting over 15 years. Cedar, red cedar, redwood, sassafras and white oak as lasting 7 to 15 years. The table also says "split posts, which have more heartwood, will last longer than the time listed, and larger sized posts also last longer". Hope this helps. Kate Howard ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 14:43:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04955 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:43:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23234; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 14:28:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22860 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:28:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22851 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:28:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4FTKa15838; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:34:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcoplos Message-ID: <178a7e7b.3559e7c5@aol.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:34:44 EDT To: curt@ci.portland.or.us, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: E Magazine -Reply Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3295 "Energy Design Update" is pretty expensive. Rather than fork over the hundreds of bucks they want, I find that EBN, Journal of Light Construction, & Home Energy magazine cover a lot of territory (it's all I can do to keep up on that reading and there are plenty of ideas to keep busy with) and often recycle info from EDU. When I become a rich green developer, I'll pay the premium subscription prices. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 14:57:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03243 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:41:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15851; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:29:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 12:26:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15360 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:25:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15353 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:25:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail2.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Wed, 13 May 1998 11:38:48 +0100 Date: Wed, 13 May 98 11:39:10 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: Black Locust To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5224142.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3296 Traditionally Black Locust has been used for fence posts. It is naturally resistant to rot. It has also been used for decking but I gather is not very easy to work with as decking because of irregularities and small dimensions. Sue Barnett City of Austin Green Building Program -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 14:57:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03423 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16775; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:45:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 12:41:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16465 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16458 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:41:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LitHowie@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id WOYPa18657; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:48:34 -0400 (EDT) From: LitHowie Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:48:34 EDT To: jberry@islandnet.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Black Locust Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3297 In a message dated 98-05-12 23:51:02 EDT, jberry@islandnet.com writes: << Long-lasting posts in the ground? >> I copied a table from a book on barn and shed building (sorry I have no reference as to the title of the book this came from). The table was titled, Estimated Life of Untreated Wood Posts, (diameter 5 to 6 inches in size). They listed Black Locust and Osage Orange as lasting over 15 years. Cedar, red cedar, redwood, sassafras and white oak as lasting 7 to 15 years. The table also says "split posts, which have more heartwood, will last longer than the time listed, and larger sized posts also last longer". Hope this helps. Kate Howard ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 14:57:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03097 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14732; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:18:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 12:14:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14446 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14442 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:14:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA8-p59.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.251]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA06885 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3559C759.7883@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:16:25 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Sustainability and building codes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3298 David wrote: "If you are interested, I can post a couple of things to this list. One is a paper on sustainability and building codes that I wrote last year and the other is a concept paper we developed as part of our effort to fund this work." I, for one, would like to see both, if there isn't enough interest to post them here, then I would appreciate your sending them directly to me. If they can be zipped and sent as an attachment, those on the list who are interested can open them and those not, can delete without opening them. Does that work Bruce? While fund raising in this forum is new to me, I'm not sure how else you could contact this constituancy. I would rather get this pitch here, than have my name sold for solicitation purposes. If your agenda is atuned to that of this list, then I think you will probably find this group interested in your plight. While I have never had any problem getting the job done because of codes conflicts, I would still like to see people with a Green agenda involved in the process of developing new codes. Even if the codes aren't directly antithetical to the process, there is certainly much that could be done to encourage Green practices. Margo, wasn't this the meeting you attended? Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 14:57:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03788 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:35:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19783; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:24:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 13:18:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19305 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:18:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19301 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:18:30 -0400 (EDT) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 10906 invoked by uid 0); 13 May 1998 17:27:39 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?198.175.11.211?) (198.175.11.211) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 13 May 1998 17:27:39 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:33:26 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3299 Just a few thoughts on lead in soil surrounding houses ... inspired by Harry Rector's neutron bombardment post. I seem to remember reading some of the Massachusetts lead abatement literature. One thing I think they suggest is paving over it. Not very aesthetic, but if you're in a city or suburb and would rather have a basketball court or big driveway instead of a lawn, it might actually help. I've also read that a large portion of the lead that children ingest comes from lead tracked in with dirt and then caught in interior carpeting. They crawl around on it and then put their fingers in their mouths. So, short of eliminating carpets or requiring everyone to take off shoes at the entrance (which might be the cheapest solution), covering up the soil around the house might be very effective. If not asphalt, then just several inches of clean soil, or those landscaping wood chips if the house is surrounded by shrubs already. A lot cheaper than hauling away all the soil, and it might work just as well. Neutron bombardment also got me wondering about chemical methods of fixing the lead in a non-toxic form. I know incinerator operators try to mix incinerator ash with phosphoric acid to make an insoluble form of lead so that the ash will pass leaching tests, but I'm not sure whether there are any chemical compounds with lead that are less toxic or less absorbable in humans. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 14:57:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03564 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18058; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:59:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 12:56:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17483 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:55:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17472; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:55:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA00331; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:02:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md11-37.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.165) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma000227; Wed May 13 12:02:16 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980513130051.00754e34@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:00:55 -0400 To: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: 6th National Conference on Building Commissioning Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3300 Announcing The 6th National Conference on Building Commissioning May 18-20, 1998 The 6th National Conference on Building Commissioning will be held May 18-20 at the Walt Disney World Coronado Springs Resort in Lake Buena Vista, Florida. The conference will focus on commissioning and sustainability, how to successfully procure and manage commissioning services, and the latest commissioning tools and trends. For the first time in the history of the NCBC, we are offering site tours on a limited, first-come-first-serve basis. Scot Parsons, P.E., Senior Mechanical Engineer for Walt Disney World's Facility Asset Management Group will conduct a behind-the-scenes tour of the living Seas Pavilion at EPCOT Center on Wednesday morning. This tour will include the 40,000,000 gallon water tank that holds sea life found around a tropical reef. The tour will also include a look at the animal care areas, the training and research areas, and a walkthrough of the backstage operational areas. It will provide a view of the underwater life and what it takes to make the "Disney Magic" from a perspective that the public never sees. Limited conference space is still available. Register today for the conference and site tour by calling PECI at (503) 248-4636 ext 208. ********************************* Original post by: e design Online More energy and environmental meetings: ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 14:57:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03622 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18759; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 13:04:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18409 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18400 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:04:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA16045; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:12:10 -0700 Message-Id: <3559D48A.2E9@arb.ca.gov> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:13:09 -0700 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: CARB/Research Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Cc: IdahoCFM@aol.com, "OSBORN, DON" Subject: GBlist: operable windows in commercial applications Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3301 CHRIS: operable windows have been considered for some newer state bldgs. in California, but not implemented due to potential cost and lack of data/experience. I heard that the Sacramento Municipal Utility District has had some experience with this in their new office building, and it has not been satisfactory because of difficulty in balancing and controlling air flows (contact Don Osborn, see cc above). The University of California Davis (James Meyer bldg.?) and perhaps other UC campuses have tried this approach too; contact the architects and bldg. managers at each campus and at the UC offices in Oakland). Also, operable windows are probably not appropriate for urban settings where pollution at street level (and sometimes higher) would easily enter the building through open windows. Operable windows (by the bldg. mgr. only) are required in the current building energy standards for California (Calif. Energy Commission, Title 24 regulations, ventilation in nonresidential bldgs, 916.654.4287). This was added in the last round, circa 1992, in order to facilitate flushing of new or remodeled buildings without spreading VOCs and other contaminants into the HVAC system and other parts of the building; this feature could also be used during episodes of indoor pollution. Hope this helps, Tom -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 14:57:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03154 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:33:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15109; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:21:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 12:18:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14740 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14736 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA07032; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:23:46 -0700 Message-ID: <3559C8BF.26E9153A@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:22:23 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Buzz Burrell CC: GreenBuilding List Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: sustainability and building codes References: <199805131254.MAA18693@nov.diac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3302 As a canuck I object to the term international included in a 'national building code' but then given the context of international trade and the growing role it is playing in determining even the most minute of local policies the term is at least realistic. It has not been difficult to see the writing on the wall. Increasingly the companies that produce products are becoming the arbiters of safety and definition for those products as independent labs become less willing to extend certification and consumer influence is more about consumers being influenced and is relegated to the advertising department. The more localized departments that create or implement building codes or standards are being downsized or eradicated. As buildings become a series of pre-inspected or engineered components the process of inspection or codes themselves become increasingly irrelevant. So what is the significance of these events? What are the drawbacks or benefits. The only benefit I can see is that codes will become increasingly tied to performance. This is a limited benefit if performance becomes defined by products used (remember the 'stuff' post and the question as to why there is so much discussion on this list about 'stuff' - what else is there?) In such a scenario stepping outside trade definition of performance you enter an exclusive and expensive realm of defining a building using various consultative sources such as engineers, etc. Sort of a bad fit off the shelf versus the tailored version - but realistically that has been the case for quite some time. Some of the drawbacks are obvious, some are more insidious. My opinion is that the marketplace or trade is too cumbersome and slow a process for defining what is good, bad or useful in technology and its perspective is too short term. The kind of critical definition that was applied to government bureaucratic practice I think can equally be applied to the corporate world. There is also the concern that the practice is subject to negative influence. I imagine interpreting this depends on which side of the rails you live on but I would say that most of the influences i.e. economic self-interest are not positive for the long term. As to Buzz's comments I think if we can define with some agreement what we are critical of then we might play a role. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Buzz Burrell wrote: > Therefor, I support paying a greater deal of attention to the macro level > of what we are trying to do. Building Codes have a huge impact on how > decisions are made; far more than anything we will ever say or write (or > e-mail). I would like to see some of the national organizations that do > support greenbuilding become involved in the creation of new codes. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 15:38:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA06410 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:38:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26726; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 15:23:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26313 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:23:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stan.lcc.net (secure.lcc.net [207.70.172.248]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26305 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lcc.net (hunt-pri3-a3.lcc.net [207.70.180.99]) by stan.lcc.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id OAA08801; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:31:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3559F718.B5B5EB28@lcc.net> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:40:08 -0500 From: Kim Travis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IdahoCFM CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: operable windows in commercial applications References: <1e7498f9.35577957@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3303 IdahoCFM wrote: > I have an opportunity where a tenant is asking for operable windows but my > HVAC consultant is telling stories of nightmares with his controls systems > with operable windows. While I am not an expert on HVAC, I stay in an enormous number of hotels, here in Texas. The hotels where the windows do not open go downhill, real fast. The odor problem is enough to make customers look for alternatives. Almost all the new hotels have windows that open. Something to think about. Maybe you need to deal with a HVAC man familiar with hotels? Kim Travis The Rose Colored Forest Bedias, Texas ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 16:10:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA06907 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:10:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28567; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 15:55:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28211 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:55:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28207 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:55:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.100.174.193] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Wed, 13 May 1998 13:04:45 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:02:35 -0700 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1317057810-2384925@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3304 Some HUD literature I read indicated that detergents containing phosphate were more effective than other cleaners because the phosphate binds lead. Tri-sodium phosphate also has an abrasive quality that helps remove lead-containing dust that sticks to woodwork. Bruce S >I know incinerator operators try to mix >incinerator ash with phosphoric acid to make an insoluble form of lead so >that the ash will pass leaching tests, but I'm not sure whether there are >any chemical compounds with lead that are less toxic or less absorbable in >humans. ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 13 16:15:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA06971 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29070; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:03:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 May 1998 15:59:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28635 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stan.lcc.net (secure.lcc.net [207.70.172.248]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28620 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:59:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lcc.net (hunt-pri2-a45.lcc.net [207.70.180.93]) by stan.lcc.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id PAA20473; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:07:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3559FF9C.A13BB144@lcc.net> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:16:28 -0500 From: Kim Travis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Black Locust References: <5224142.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3305 greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com wrote: > Traditionally Black Locust has been used for fence posts. It is naturally > resistant to rot. It has also been used for decking but I gather is not very > easy to work with as decking because of irregularities and small dimensions. > > Sue Barnett > City of Austin > Green Building Program > > -- > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ While this is true of some varieties of black locust, it isnot true of all. The variety that the Black Locust Initiative is promoting was traditionally used for ship masts and furniture. It is reasonably straight, depending on how it is grown and grows to dimensions of 13-40 inches in diameter. Kim Travis The Rose Colored Forest Bedias, Tx ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 14 10:24:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA18970 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:24:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03569; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:13:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 May 1998 10:07:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03061 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03053 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:07:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.17.145] (usr0a15.bf.sover.net [204.71.17.145]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA28755; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:15:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:15:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF1355A5@WASNT1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "George, Drew" From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: E Magazine Cc: "'GreenBuilding List'" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3306 At 10:42 AM -0400 5/13/98, George, Drew wrote: >Can you provide some details about E Magazine? I don't think I am >familiar with it. I have seen "Environment" and "Environmental Design >and Construction" and of course EBN... > >Are there some other periodicals and/or other lists the GBlisters >recommend for a green builder ? This seems like a good opportunity to mention that the entire annotated bibliography of green building resources that we publish each year for our subscribers is now available on line at our Web site. There are a number of other useful periodicals on the list, which is organized by topic area: energy, building materials, IAQ, etc. A couple that come to mind right away are Designer/Builder and Sol Plan Review. Full contact info for the publishers is provided with each listing. Our Web site's URL is in the footer of this (and every) GBlist messaage. Nadav Malin, Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 14 10:51:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19943 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:51:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05869; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:40:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 May 1998 10:35:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05124 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:34:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05114 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.201] (pm3a11.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.201]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA08919 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:42:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebnpr@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:43:36 -0400 To: Greenbuilding List From: Doug Patterson Subject: GBlist: Re: kitchen cabinets Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3307 I was sent this message from this person looking for kitchen cabinets. Any suggestions for him? You can either reply to the list, to me, or to him/her directly. >From: The4Rogers >Subject: Re: kitchen cabinets > >I am enjoying your site, and obtaining lots of ideas. I'm looking for new >kitchen cabinets and would like to purchase ones that outgas objectionable >chemicals the least. I'm finding books in the library on how to build and >remodel in a healthy way, but no one lists manufacturers to contact about >their products. Can you give me the names and addresses/phone numbers of >environmentally responsible kitchen cabinet manufacturers? > >Thank you. Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 14 11:47:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA21966 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:47:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09473; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:34:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 May 1998 11:31:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09129 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09125 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:30:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id KAA0000001677; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:38:38 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980514154114.00695c90@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:41:14 -0500 To: jberry@islandnet.com (Jonathan Berry) From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Black Locust Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3308 Jonathan, Black Locust: with A being relatively high in respect to the property: It is "A" in hardness, dry weight, freedom from shrinkage, nail holding, decay resistance of heartwood, bending strength, stiffness, toughness, post strength and in freedom from pitch on its surface. It's listed "B" in freedom from warping and freedom from knots, and "C" in ease of working and its paint holding qualities. It would be generally used for rough construction although I've seen panels made of it. Its the most common wood used for fence posts back east and I would use it for a pole building if we had it around here. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 14 12:45:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA23969 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 12:45:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12536; Thu, 14 May 1998 12:31:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 May 1998 12:27:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12074 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 12:26:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12070 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 12:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA04525; Thu, 14 May 1998 09:34:37 -0700 Message-Id: <355B1D58.5721@arb.ca.gov> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:35:37 -0700 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: CARB/Research Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Cc: "ROBERTS, JOHN" Subject: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3309 David et al: I don't know of anyway to remove or detoxify lead in soil other than truck it away, but John Roberts in Seattle has extensively studied children's exposure to and track-in of lead, pesticides, etc. via soil & housedust (see cc above). He found some house dust concentrations of lead to be well above hazardous waste standards for soil! Besides removing carpets, taking shoes off in the house, and using a good vacuum, John recommends at least covering exposed dirt with mulch, bark, etc. to keep kids & pets from tracking it in. I suspect routine monitoring of kids' blood lead and carpet/house dust would be in order in this situation to ensure that lead levels go down and stay down. If you get a lot of rain in your area, you may want to look into ways to accelerate the leaching of the lead from your soil, e.g., shifting the pH or adding chelates. The water quality and hazardous waste literature would be a good source of this info, e.g., journals such as Env. Sci. & Technology, and Environment. HUD/EPA are doing remediation standards on lead based paint these days, I believe, and Baltimore has done much in the past. They have probably addressed the paint stripping issue (how to avoid spreading the dust all over the house). Good luck, Tom ----- David Vickers wrote: ...Just a note concerning lead based paint in the soil. In lieu of removing the soil does anyone out there with a scientific bent know of a way to neutralize lead content? I know that certain types of stripper can be neutralized with low concentrations of an acid. This would help eliminate the problem of making the lead in soil airborne again. ---- David Lambertson wrote: ...It is children who take the hit and the poison to their system is real and its effects last forever. ----- Chris Neurath wrote: ...One thing I think they suggest is paving over it. Not very aesthetic, but if you're in a city or suburb and would rather have a basketball court or big driveway instead of a lawn, it might actually help. I've also read that a large portion of the lead that children ingest comes from lead tracked in with dirt and then caught in interior carpeting. They crawl around on it and then put their fingers in their mouths. So, short of eliminating carpets or requiring everyone to take off shoes at the entrance (which might be the cheapest solution), covering up the soil around the house might be very effective. If not asphalt, then just several inches of clean soil, or those landscaping wood chips if the house is surrounded by shrubs already. A lot cheaper than hauling away all the soil, and it might work just as well. ---- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 14 14:19:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA25941 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:19:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18002; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:07:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 May 1998 14:03:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA17351 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:03:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA17345 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:03:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from RHDesign@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4QQLa18218; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:10:14 -0400 (EDT) From: RHDesign Message-ID: <848a8e67.355b3388@aol.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:10:14 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: The4Rogers@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: kitchen cabinets Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3310 Here in Seattle, the Environmental Home Center has developed a line of cabinets using Medite or strawboard substrate, veneers and solid wood from sustainable or well-managed sources, with low-toxic adhesives and finishes. http://www.enviresource.com or (206) 682-7332 (ask for Matt or Stacey) for more info. Rob Harrison *** Robert Harrison Architects Seattle, WA http://members.aol.com/rhdesign --lyrical sustainable design-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 14 14:48:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA26534 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20019; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:36:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 May 1998 14:32:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19581 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:32:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19573 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:32:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18634; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:40:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dsy44.vineyard.net(206.166.158.102) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id smab18537; Thu May 14 14:40:31 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <89159384.355916c2@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:58:49 +0100 To: Strawnet , greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: sustainability and building codes Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3311 David - Thanks ever so much for your post. All I can say is, I'm glad you were there!! I can't offer much right now, except a donation from South Mountain Co. which is on its way to you to help you continue your important work. I hope others will join me. This work is critical, and you've been instrumental in bringing some of these issues into focus. I hope the Greenbuilding listers can figure out some way to band together to support it, enhance it, and inspire more activity. David - are yougoing to be at the NESEA/TFG Toward Tomorrow event in Mass in July? If so, a working session might be in order one evening. Maybe EBN would organize (Nadav and Alex - see how easily I pass the buck? Comes naturally, unfortunately). John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 14 17:16:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA29500 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA28434; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:04:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 May 1998 17:00:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA28006 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:00:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28001 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:00:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id RBM20700; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:06:53 EDT To: doug@ebuild.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:09:54 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Re: kitchen cabinets Message-ID: <19980514.171046.4718.4.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4,7-8,10-14 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3312 Doug, St. Charles has a line of metal cabinets (quite high styled) that are low outgassing. One designer in Chicago has a lock on their totally allergy free version, but I was frustrated in trying to get any kind of info from him. I was promised info, but it never arrived and when I called to complain (several times) was told to send them my plans and they would get back to me. If the St. Charles people try to refer you out to him, just insist on getting information from them directly. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 14 17:16:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA29507 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:16:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA28486; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:05:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 May 1998 17:01:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA28049 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:01:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28041 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:01:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id RBN20700; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:06:54 EDT To: GeorgeD@americas.bovis.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:10:19 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: E Magazine Message-ID: <19980514.171046.4718.5.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF1355A5@wasnt1> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-24,27-32 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3313 On Wed, 13 May 1998 10:42:38 -0400 "George, Drew" writes: >Beverly, > >Can you provide some details about E Magazine? I don't think I am >familiar with it. I have seen "Environment" and "Environmental Design >and Construction" and of course EBN... > >Are there some other periodicals and/or other lists the GBlisters >recommend for a green builder ? >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >--- >Drew George, Bovis Green Building Champion >11 Lincoln Parkway, Annapolis MD 21401 >Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > >George, et al, "E The Environmental Magazine" is a bi-monthly available at PO Box 5098, Westport, Ct, 06881. You can sample it at www.emagazine.com or e-mail them at emagazine@prodigy.net. Hope this helps. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 14 18:34:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA01545 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 18:34:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03535; Thu, 14 May 1998 18:23:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 May 1998 18:19:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03215 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 18:19:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03211 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 18:19:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA22221; Thu, 14 May 1998 15:24:58 -0700 Message-ID: <355B6EEA.E3097313@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:23:39 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov CC: GREENBLDGLIST , "ROBERTS, JOHN" Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses References: <355B1D58.5721@arb.ca.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3314 My comments on bio and phytoremediation were based on well established in-situ approaches for which there is some good evidence and practicioners. I think this approach is preferable to removal even if its efficacy is limited to demonstating a little less muscular approach to problems. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Tom Phillips wrote: > David et al: > I don't know of anyway to remove or detoxify lead in soil other than > truck it away, ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 14 18:53:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA01714 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 18:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA04552; Thu, 14 May 1998 18:40:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 May 1998 18:37:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04232 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 18:36:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA04228 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 18:36:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA22505; Thu, 14 May 1998 15:42:46 -0700 Message-ID: <355B7317.FFA307B7@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:41:27 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Doug Patterson CC: Greenbuilding List Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: kitchen cabinets References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3315 We have been manufacturing cabinetry and millwork for our projects for some time and at one time considered marketing cabinetry for a larger distribution, but felt that the demand would be limited. I was surprised to see so few references offered for alternative cabinetry. The cabinets we developed are solid wood (strip laminated softwood or hardwood) with woodlot derived facings (westcoast maple and alder have been our basic materials). Counters have been coloured concrete or regional marble and granite and we have done designs with sinks made of the same materials. I would be interested in hearing if there might be any wider interest in component cabinetry that meet some qualified standards. Costs do not seem that much higher, perhaps 30% over conventional but then the quality and longevity is appreciably higher (if I say so myself) John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Doug Patterson wrote: > I was sent this message from this person looking for kitchen cabinets. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 15 01:07:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA06012 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 01:07:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15669; Fri, 15 May 1998 00:55:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 May 1998 00:51:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA15322 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 00:51:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nov.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15318 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 00:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.134] (p134.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.134]) by nov.diac.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA06619 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 02:57:16 GMT Message-Id: <199805150257.CAA06619@nov.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Green Rating Systems Date: Thu, 14 May 98 23:02:26 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3316 I'm rewriting the Covenants for the small cohousing development I'm working on. The Covenants already include good greenbuilding measures, but I'd like to clarify, objectify, and generally tighten up what is being required. To that end, I would like to collect and read some of the many different "green rating" systems in use around the country, in order to incorporate the best of these into our own document (IOW, to make my job quicker and easier). The City of Boulder has an excellent "Green Points" system, and Colorado has an "E-Star Homes" program and a "Built Green" program. These are all good, but I would like to peruse more ... green rating systems from governments, utilities, or best yet, private developments. I'm personally leaning toward a points system, so those would be particularly appreciated. Kindly send your recommendations to me or the List. Thanks much. Buzz Burrell Geneva Development Corporation Boulder, CO buzz@diac.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 15 10:08:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12313 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01168; Fri, 15 May 1998 09:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 May 1998 09:52:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA00765 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 09:52:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00760 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 09:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust169.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.169]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id IAA22321; Fri, 15 May 1998 08:59:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <355C4AC4.3BC1@gte.net> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:01:40 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: buzz@diac.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Green Rating System Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4F2648861270" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3317 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4F2648861270 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Buzz, You asked about green rating systems for communities. The sixth article in this package discusses GIS-based measurement of sustainable community indicators. At the end are a half dozen web sites that may prove of interest. Good luck, Cindy Pollock Shea http://sustainable.state.fl.us --------------4F2648861270 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from relay1.mailsrvcs.net ([192.168.129.40]) by mta2.gte.net (Intermail v3.1 117 242) with ESMTP id <19980430211400.JBJC6481@relay1.mailsrvcs.net> for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:14:00 -0500 Received: from gossimer.nettally.com (gossimer.nettally.com [199.44.114.224]) by relay1.mailsrvcs.net with ESMTP id QAA04617 for ; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:13:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from famu.edu ([199.44.114.46]) by gossimer.nettally.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11170) with ESMTP id AAA123; Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:08:32 -0400 Message-ID: <3548E9F7.C6E489D7@famu.edu> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:15:35 -0400 From: Florida Sustainable Communities Center Reply-To: fdi@famu.edu Organization: Florida Design Initiative X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "fscc-xpress! recipient" Subject: FSCC-xpress! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Florida Sustainable Community Center FSCC-xpress! # 8 April ’98 in Florida’s sustainable communities network: We grow to 30 as two new communities join; 200 Martin countians and national sustainability leaders launch program at a day-long seminar; editor Cindy Shea explores Ocala’s ambitious initiative, and reports on the GIS-based sustainability Indicators workshop—and much, much more in this xpress! update on the latest at FSCC’s Web Center. Jim Minter, editor Sustainable Communities: 1. “The Sarasotas” Join Florida Sustainable Communities Network The City of Sarasota and Sarasota County become the first new communities to join the original 28. Other communities are expressing interest. http://sustainable.state.fl.us/fdi/fscc/news/local/sarasota.htm 2. “Ocala: Keeper of the Jewels” Hundreds of historic homes surround a blossoming downtown in the smallest of Florida’s five pilot sustainable communities. In this five-part report editor Cindy Shea explores Ocala’s many new creative projects, from multi-modal transportation to strengthening neighborhoods. http://sustainable.state.fl.us/fdi/fscc/news/local/ocala.htm The Martin County Conference: 3. “The Coming Energy Crunch: Why Martin County IS Sustainable” VIEWPOINT: Editor Jim Minter says it's NOT the stupid economy. The peak and decline of the Petroleum Age, can begin as early as the next decade. Therefore, Martin County's choice for sustainability is the ONLY intelligent choice. http://sustainable.state.fl.us/fdi/fscc/news/local/martmtg.htm 4. “We Must Act As If Tomorrow Matters” The Remarks of Robert Davis at the Martin County, Florida Sustainability Conference. In the past five decades we have built "a world of junk" says pioneering Seaside developer Robert Davis. But it doesn't have to be this way. We can return to humanity's 5,000-year-old craft of building towns and cities. http://sustainable.state.fl.us/fdi/fscc/news/local/davis.htm 5. “200 at Seminar Help Launch Martin County’s Sustainable Community Programs” --from the Stuart News http://sustainable.state.fl.us/fdi/fscc/news/local/nature.htm Orlando Workshop: 6. “GIS-Based Sustainability Indicators: Helping People to See Linkages” Planners from seven FSCN communities spent a day exploring indicators of sustainability that you can actually chart and manipulate in computer-based systems. http://sustainable.state.fl.us/fdi/fscc/news/state/gis.htm State: 7. “1970s: a Decade of Major Advances for Conservation” Ken Woodburn's work as a state ecologist spanned almost the entire history of Florida's conservation movement--from 1955 until early 1987. This is the second of a three-part series. http://sustainable.state.fl.us/fdi/fscc/news/state/ken2.htm Review: 8. “Landscapes Must be Self-Sufficient” Review of "Landscapes: A Source of Life" a University of Florida Sustainable Development Seminar Series lecture given by John Lyle, chairman of the Landscape Architecture Department at California State Polytechnic. http://sustainable.state.fl.us/fdi/fscc/news/state/lyle.htm Conference: 9. Building Sustainable Communities Conference New Orleans: May 27-29, 1998 http://sustainable.state.fl.us/fdi/fscc/events/events.htm#05272998 ********************************* This notice contains links to nine stories. If you did not receive the full message, please notify us. If you have comments or story suggestions, or if you do not wish to receive further FSCC-xpress! email notices from us; please reply to this message. Jim Minter, editor Florida Sustainable Communities Center http://sustainable.state.fl.us e design Online http://edesign.state.fl.us fdi@famu.edu ncs --------------4F2648861270-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 15 10:40:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12841 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03606; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:29:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 May 1998 10:25:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03268 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:25:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uu7.psi.com (uu7.psi.com [38.8.39.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03263 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:25:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailgate.nyserda.org by uu7.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.940727-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP; id AA28818 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 15 May 98 10:32:53 -0400 Received: from ccMail by mailgate.nyserda.org (ccMail Link to SMTP R6.01.01) id AA895242773; Fri, 15 May 98 10:33:00 -0500 Message-Id: <9805158952.AA895242773@mailgate.nyserda.org> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.01.01 Date: Fri, 15 May 98 10:31:58 -0500 From: "Craig Kneeland" To: Subject: GBlist: Green Building codes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3318 The New York State Energy Research and Development Authority (NYSERDA) is currently reviewing the NYS Energy Conservation Construction Code to see how it can be improved. We'd be very interested in receiving David Eisenberg's paper and materials from other listers on greening building codes. If you have questions about our efforts, please contact Mark Eggers at 518-862-1090, ext. 3308 (e-mail: mse@nyserda.org; fax: 518-862-1091). Thanks. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 15 12:39:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15726 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10516; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 May 1998 12:23:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA10168 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:23:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10164 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:23:40 -0400 (EDT) From: woodeneagle@juno.com Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id MuF01904; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:30:22 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 08:39:08 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #180 Message-ID: <19980515.083909.11494.2.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199805140600.CAA21033@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.23 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,11-14 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3319 RE: operable windows: It is easy to design a building that works well if there are no people in it to screw things up. Add the human factor, and the challenge rises immeasurably. Open a window on the top floor and the stack effect causes an intake of cold and potentially polluted air to rush in on the bottom. Hermetically seal the shell, and you trap all kinds of biological contaminants inside. I have heard annecdotal stories of auto tire rubber dust being found on the 16th floor of a building in Toronto, drawn through the HVAC system and stack effect. Perhaps a design where each floor is compartmentalized from those above and below would help. It would reduce energy costs, make HVAC design much easier, and give tennants of each space more control on their local environment. Scott Waterman _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 15 13:10:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16138 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13032; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:58:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 May 1998 12:53:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12368 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12356; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 0KQDa29741; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:59:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:59:56 EDT To: iaq@onelist.com, ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: "Black Streaks (Ghosting) on Walls" - ISU Extension Pub. Article Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3320 This portion of an Extension Publication was sent to me by someone who has also been looking into this issue of soot deposition; however,it doesn't appear to be the article in it's entirety. If anyone on this list has access to this publication would you kindly forward a copy of it to me or fax a copy of this article to: 972-527-6608. Is anyone familiar or aquiainted with the article's author, Thomas H. Greiner, from Iowa State? I've tried to search it out on their web site, but since I don't have a date of publication I haven't been too successful. It may be that this article is too recent to have been added to the archives at this point. Thanks - Cathy Indoor Air Quality & Candles http://members.tripod.com/~rkfabf/index.html IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq ============================================================ Black Streaks (Ghosting) on Walls ------------------------------------- ISU Extension Pub Author: Thomas H. Greiner Iowa State University. BLACK STREAKS (GHOSTING) ON WALLS Black streaks on walls and ceilings are a perplexing and difficult problem to diagnose and solve. Only limited research studies are available. What causes black streaks on walls and ceilings? The main causes are: * Soot (small carbon particles) * Mold * Dirt How can the cause be determined? Laboratory testing can determine whether the streaks are soot, mold, or dirt (U of I Hygienic Laboratory). Field tests, not always conclusive, include wiping one location with bleach to determine if the material is mold and a strong commercial cleaner to determine soot or dirt. Where does the soot come from? Soot comes from incomplete combustion of a carbon-based material. Any material that can burn can produce soot, including natural gas, LP, wood, oil, candle wax, gasoline, diesel fuel, tobacco smoke, dust, dirt, cooking oils, and carpet fibers. Sources include: * Unvented fossil-fired heating appliances, such as space heaters, kitchen ranges, and clothes dryers. * Vented fossil-fired heating appliances that experience vent failure (often intermittent and sporadic). * Candles (scented candles might be worse). * Fireplaces * Tobacco smoking * Environmental contaminants (dust, dirt, and cooking oils) * Carbon from vehicle exhaust in attached garages. * Outside sources (factories). Why is soot produced? Incomplete combustion produces soot. Keeping burners and pilots cleaned and properly adjusted can reduce the amount of soot produced. Uncontrolled combustion, such as wood burning in an open fireplace, candles, and cigarettes, produce higher amounts of soot. What causes incomplete combustion? Incomplete combustion occurs when all of the fuel does not burn. Common causes are: * Dirt on burners * Incorrect gas orifice sizes (either too large or too small, especially critical to check as natural gas/LP conversions are made). * Flame impinging on a cold surface (incorrectly placed artificial logs in a gas fireplace, cold cooking utensils on gas range, incorrectly designed burner and heat exchanger). * Incorrect gas pressure (either too high or low). Can be intermittent, if gas regulator is malfunctioning, or continuous if pressure adjustments were made incorrectly. * Air flow disturbing flame (fan blowing on burner or cracked heat exchanger in furnace). * Insufficient oxygen in small room. * Downdrafting of vent disturbing air flow through heating appliance (often intermittent and sporadic). Why does soot collect on walls and ceilings, not at the source? About 99 percent of particles in indoor air are too small to be seen individually, and many are so small they can only be seen with an electron microscope. (North Central Regional Publication 393). The human eye can detect particles larger than 30 microns. Suspended household dust ranges from 0.001 to 20 microns in size and the major smudging sizes range from 0.001 to 1.0 micron in size. (One inch is approximately 25,000 microns). The particles are so small they settle extremely slowly and are disrupted as air molecules "bump" into each other. The particles vary in size, density and electrostatic charge. Deposition of the particles is most affected by surface electric charge, temperature, and moisture content. Soot can move a long distance from the source before being deposited. Heating appliances that do not have soot around them can be the source of soot in other rooms. What causes intermittent sooting? Gas pressure fluctuations and downdrafting are the main causes. Gas pressure regulators can stick or be misadjusted. In cold weather the regulator pressure relief vent can freeze, causing incorrect gas pressures. Liquified petroleum pressure varies with the temperature. Pressure from nearly empty LP tanks fluctuates, and can lead to appliance sooting. Gas piping that is too small reduces gas pressure. Downdrafting is caused by pressure differences between the house and outdoors. For natural draft appliances to vent properly ALL the following are necessary: * Properly designed and maintained vent (chimney) system (proper sizing, rise, height, material, and not blocked). * Vent system located so it will work in ALL weather conditions ALL the time (i.e, works in all wind, temperature, humidity, and icing conditions). * Sufficient combustion air openings to the structure that work in ALL weather conditions ALL the time (see above). * Adequate make-up air openings for all exhaust appliances. All air that exits the structure must be replaced. * Heating appliance room NEVER depressurized more than vent (chimney) can overcome. Some sources of depressurization include exhaust fans, attic bypasses, leaky return ductwork, inadequate returns or supplies, recessed lights, fireplaces, wind, and temperature. Recent studies indicate downdrafting to be a prevalent and serious problem. Minnegasco Gas Company found downdrafting can disrupt a flame that burned normally during venting conditions, causing soot and carbon monoxide production during downdrafting. Do blue flames indicate proper combustion? Not always. Under some conditions (i.e., oversized orifices or excess gas pressure) the flame can remain blue but be producing large amounts of carbon monoxide. The following can be checked to assure proper combustion: orifice size, gas pressure, gas flow, and combustion gas composition (using a combustion gas analyzer). Where does streaking and discoloration occur? Typically streaking occurs at studs on outside walls and at rafter. These locations are cooler (and therefore wetter) than the insulated cavities. Carbon and dirt are more likely to collect there, and mold is more likely to grow there. Other locations include polished light fixtures, t.v. screens, refrigerators, inside cabinets, around pictures, carpet under doorways, on plastics (such as storage containers in the kitchen), and on walls above heat sources. What causes streaking above wall mounted heat sources? Battelle concluded the streaking above electric heaters is caused by air contaminants charring and depositing on the cooler wall surfaces. Ontario Hydro-Electric concluded that discoloration above heating systems (such as convective wall units, lighting fixtures, and refrigerators) is caused by air- borne material in the room flowing past the heater and depositing. The deposits were yellow-brown when from cooking vapors; dust and lint; smoke from tobacco, candles, or open fireplace. Jet black deposits were caused by carbon soot from heating appliances (often caused by problem with the inlet air supply system.) Can vehicles in attached garages contribute to soot? In the winter, many homes pull large amounts of air (and carbon monoxide) from the garage, even though the door between the house and garage is weatherstripped and the wall sealed. How is the soot problem solved? Find and eliminate the source. Adjust and vent combustion appliances. Provide combustion and make-up air. Use a range hood while cooking to remove cooking vapors and combustion products from gas stoves (Caution, range hoods depressurize houses, and can cause downdrafting of vented appliances). Vent gas clothes dryers outdoors. Do not use unvented gas heating appliances except for emergency heating. Replace natural draft heating appliances with sealed combustion or electric units. Clean or replace carpets, drapes, and furniture as needed. Clean and repaint walls and ceilings. How is mold removed? Mold needs high moisture levels to grow. Reduce interior moisture, warm exterior walls with insulation, remove mold with bleach solutions, and then repaint. Severe mold growth in wall cavities will require removal of the wall surfaces. What about dirt streaks? As with mold, dirt streaks often are caused by excess moisture. Reduce the moisture in the dwelling and warm the walls. Reduce outdoor dirt entry by sealing the house (ie, caulking, weatherstripping, new windows). Filter the air through a ventilation systems, like an air-to-air heat exchanger. (Caution - sealing the house can cause downdrafting problems unless new heating appliances are installed). Why is it so hard to find and correct soot problems? The diagnostic equipment needed is expensive and not readily available, and includes: particulate samplers, differential pressure transducers, electron microscopes, combustion analyzers, and blower doors. Many of the causes of soot are intermittent and sporadic. To fully investigate the cause of blackening, continuous monitoring of all suspected appliances might be needed for several weeks, at the cost of several thousand dollars. ("information for one-time member use under the Federal Library Act.") ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 15 13:49:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16716 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:49:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15689; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:37:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 May 1998 13:33:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14910 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14901; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:32:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 0ANIa14222; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:39:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf Message-ID: <1cc2f227.355c7dd2@aol.com> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:39:28 EDT To: iaq@onelist.com, ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: "GHOST MARKS" Release Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3321 "GHOST MARKS" IN HOME CAN HAVE VARIETY OF CAUSES (MADISON) Increasing numbers of home owners are noticing dark, soot-like marks appearing as outlines around the framing structure of their walls and pictures and as marks along baseboards, under doors and on television screens. No one has been sure what causes these "ghost marks," or stains. But Frank Vigil in a recent article in Home Energy, argues that the most common cause of these stains is soot deposits, not ordinary dirt build up. He also notes that while the problem seems to be more common in newer homes with tighter construction, stains also have appeared in older homes. "Actually, there are many types of ghost marks that may appear in homes," says Jim Cain, University of Wisconsin-Extension interim housing specialist. "Some stains are caused by pressure differences driving `dirty' air past a surface the dirt can cling to. Some marks are related to temperature differences on walls, floors or ceilings where insulation may maintain the interior surface at a different temperature than the surface over the adjacent wood joist or stud." Cain says since some ghost stains have appeared in older homes where stains had not been noticed before, other explanations for the stains have been examined. Vigil notes that many are soot stains. This caused analysts to look for the source of the soot, as well as an explanation for why the deposits appeared where they did. "The surprising discovery is that, in a large number of cases, candles caused the soot," Cain says. "More homeowners now burn candles. In fact, the candle industry has doubled in the last five years. But not all candles are equal causes of soot staining. Analysis suggests that scented candles, jar candles and oil candles seem to generate more soot than the standard wax candles." Once in the air, the soot is driven onto surfaces by the air circulated by the furnace, settles from the force of gravity, or may be attracted to surfaces because of an electrical charge (like the TV screen), temperature differences, or humidity differences. Other sources of soot include gas log fireplaces, vacuum cleaners, traffic outside the home, cars in attached garages, and standing pilot lights. If the gas flame of the pilot is very long or burns yellow, it is a probable source of soot. If the deposits are very dark, almost black, Cain says soot may be the reason. If the deposits are grayish, they are more likely from ordinary household dirt. If you have a housing question, send it to Jim Cain, 1300 Linden Dr., Madison, WI 53705. Or, visit the UW-Extension housing website at http://www.uwex.edu/house Contacts: Jim Cain, (608) 262-7931; FL9802.wp5 in ftp site located at ftp.ces.uwex.edu/ces/newsrelease file under: housing ("information for one-time member use under the Federal Library Act.") ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 15 14:02:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16879 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 14:02:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16596; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 May 1998 13:47:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA16198 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stan.lcc.net (secure.lcc.net [207.70.172.248]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16188 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lcc.net (hunt-pri1-a15.lcc.net [207.70.180.15]) by stan.lcc.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id MAA13650; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:54:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <355C8384.D84896BF@lcc.net> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:03:48 -0500 From: Kim Travis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GBlist , dcat@azstarnet.com Subject: GBlist: Strawnet Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3322 Garth and I are sending $50 to David Eisenberg to help him in his battle. The thought of a national building code makes us shudder. We bought our 20 acres where we did because we don't have building codes. You must have proper solid waste disposal to get electricity, but that is it. Some of us enjoy our freedom. I am not saying that I don't build to code or that I don't use engineers to check my designs before I build, I do. [I am a philosopher by trade, not an archetech] Having lived in Canada for 35 years before moving to the states, I learned exactly how bad unbending code officials can be. I want a environmentally friendly, self cleaning mansion. This is a proto-type and to build it in Canada, they wanted to see ALL of the plans! Including the equipment which is none of thier business. If the building is structually sound and not a hazard, then they should but out. I would hate to see that kind of officialdom come to Texas. Sorry for sounding off, but I find that a good number of, but not all Americans are not aware of the freedoms that they have and are all to ready to give them up with out thinking about the alternatives. Thanks Kim & Garth Travis The Rose Colored Forest Bedias, Tx ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 15 14:54:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA17460 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 14:54:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19426; Fri, 15 May 1998 14:42:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 May 1998 14:37:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19005 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 14:37:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc513.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18996; Fri, 15 May 1998 14:37:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from IEL#u#MAIL-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 15 May 1998 14:45:20 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:44:55 -0400 From: "Arnie Katz" To: Rkfabf@aol.com, ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, iaq@onelist.com Subject: Re: GBlist: "Black Streaks (Ghosting) on Walls" - ISU Extension Pub. Article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id OAA18997 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3323 Tom Greiner Iowa State U. Extension 200 C Davidson Hall Ames, IA 50011-3080 (515)294-0464 X1Grein@exnet.iastate.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 15 16:45:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA19462 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 16:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25824; Fri, 15 May 1998 16:33:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 May 1998 16:29:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA25226 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 16:29:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from equinox.crest.net (equinox.crest.net [207.44.167.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA25164; Fri, 15 May 1998 16:28:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (zach@localhost) by equinox.crest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA04683; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:35:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: equinox.crest.net: zach owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:35:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Zachariah Nobel X-Sender: zach@equinox.crest.net To: greenbuilding@crest.org, bioenergy@crest.org, gasification@crest.org, digestion@crest.org, pvusers@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org, crestsoft-l@crest.org Subject: GBlist: CREST Needs another helper! Please spread the word! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3324 Hi folks, CREST is looking for another helper for internet work. The position is open in the San Fransisco office, and needs to be filled ASAP. Resumes will be accepted up until the 21st of May. A description of the position follows: Help Wanted - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology, a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization with offices in Washington DC and San Francisco CA that promotes sustainable energy & resource development through the use of various electronic media, is seeking a qualified candidate to fill a new full- or part-time position in our San Francisco based Internet services division. About the Job ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For the last 4 years CREST has hosted Solstice (solstice.crest.org), one of the most popular sites on the Internet for sustainable energy and development information. Its resources include document libraries, discussion lists, and databases. CREST also offers Internet presence hosting for organizations in this field. CREST now has an entry or junior level position available whose duties would include: working with CREST staff to design, produce and maintain World Wide Web resources for CREST Internet clients, the Solstice website, and CREST Internet projects; as well as routine maintenance activities, including mailing list administration and answering emailed comments. Requirements ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Candidates must be familiar with all phases of World Wide Web site design and production and have completed work online for review. Strong emphasis will be placed on candidates with solid graphic/information design skills. Candidates must also be able to work with a closely integrated team in which communication, flexibility, and a good sense of humor are essential. Other Helpful Skills ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Additional experience we're looking for includes: majordomo mailing list administration, experience with UNIX as well as both Windows and Macintosh operating systems; programming ability, especially cgi scripting in PERL; SQL databases; and knowledge of the fields of renewable energy, energy efficiency, and sustainable development. Location ~~~~~~~~ Applicants must live in or be willing to locate to the San Francisco bay area. CREST will not be able to assist with relocation expenses. Salary ~~~~~~ Salary range is $23-28,000/yr., plus benefits. Contact ~~~~~~~ Resumes will be accepted by email at: net-services@crest.org ..and by post at: CREST Internet Services 350 Townsend St. #100 San Francisco CA 94107 Remember to include the URLs of sites you have developed. CREST is an Equal Opportunity Employer; women & minorities are especially encouraged to apply for this position. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Please post this to whomever you feel is appropriate. Thank you! Zachariah Nobel -- _________ Zachariah Nobel, Assistant Manager for Internet Services Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology (CREST) 1 (415) 284-6400 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 15 19:51:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21453 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:51:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02401; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 May 1998 19:36:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01599 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01586 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:35:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip07.ivnet.net [206.101.73.167]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA30742; Fri, 15 May 1998 15:41:15 -0700 Message-ID: <355917E0.8C9DA1B0@ivnet.net> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:47:44 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mcshea1@gte.net CC: "David F. Lambertson" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: water conditioners References: <1.5.4.32.19980428041454.00717c64@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> <3557BE5C.2159@gte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3325 Cindy Shea wrote: > > Sacie, > > We bought the ClearWave and are at least moderately happy with it. The > water here is hard @ 13 and when the old softener failed, the glassware > got very milky and filmy. Have you retested the hardness after the ClearWave was installed? Bruce Donelson A Better Builder ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 15 19:51:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21458 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02399; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 May 1998 19:35:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01548 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:35:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01542 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip07.ivnet.net [206.101.73.167]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA30721; Fri, 15 May 1998 15:40:51 -0700 Message-ID: <355B9652.320947E3@ivnet.net> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:11:46 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag Alden CC: Green Building List Subject: Re: GBlist: Well Pump References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3326 Ther are lots of submersible pumps which will put out that much water, no problem. Considering that you don't have to draw from very deep down, you might be just as happy with a jet pump. If you get a gas-powered irrigation pump, you can use it for fire suppression as well. Or an electric pump can be run from a suitable generator. Well and pump guys can usually set you up with these things better than some plumbing supply houses. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma OR Speireag Alden wrote: > > Hallo, all. > > I have a well which sometimes overflows all by itself and sometimes is > just a few feet below ground level. I'm looking for a pump for it. > > I'd like the pump to put as much water as possible into the nearby > pond, or at least have that option. The well refreshes at a rate of 20 > gallons per minute. > > Because I don't have to lift the water high at all, just pressurize it > for the house, I'm looking for a 110V to 120V pump which will do 20 gpm. I > don't know if such a thing exists. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 15 19:51:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21476 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:51:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02427; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:40:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 May 1998 19:36:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01608 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01593 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip07.ivnet.net [206.101.73.167]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA30746; Fri, 15 May 1998 15:41:18 -0700 Message-ID: <355B943A.9148E54E@ivnet.net> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:02:51 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Operable Windows in Commercial Buildings References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3327 John Straube wrote: > > I have had this question asked of me so often. When I tell students that > most office towers are air conditioning all winter long, they say "Why > not open a window?". I dont have a lot of answers. > I think that almost all of these buildings are set up to provide make-up air, a varying amount of outside air is mixed in with the recirculated air, depending on the temperature required at the fresh air ducts. So I doubt that the chillers would be functioning if the outside air temp was low enough. I've never built one, or worked on the systems of an older building, tho. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma OR ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 15 19:51:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21449 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:51:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02387; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:40:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 May 1998 19:36:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01560 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01543 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:35:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip07.ivnet.net [206.101.73.167]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA30729; Fri, 15 May 1998 15:40:54 -0700 Message-ID: <355B9896.4EAF7358@ivnet.net> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:21:26 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Sullivan CC: Green Building Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses References: <1317057810-2384925@irisinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3328 The stuff called "tsp" and is readily available is not trisodium phosphate. Trisodium phosphate has largely been banned because of the damage which the phosphates do to rivers and streams. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma OR Bruce Sullivan wrote: > > Some HUD literature I read indicated that detergents containing phosphate > were more effective than other cleaners because the phosphate binds lead. > Tri-sodium phosphate also has an abrasive quality that helps remove > lead-containing dust that sticks to woodwork. > > Bruce S > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 15 20:15:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA21875 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 20:15:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03225; Fri, 15 May 1998 20:03:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 May 1998 20:00:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA02871 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:59:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from asiaonline.net (asiaonline.net [202.85.0.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA02866 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:59:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from allender@localhost) by asiaonline.net (8.8.6/8.7.3) id IAA07565; Sat, 16 May 1998 08:06:13 +0800 (HKT) From: allender@asiaonline.net (Robert Allender) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #181 Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 22:33:34 -0400 Message-ID: <+rPX1kcJSPtS089yn@asiaonline.net> In-Reply-To: <199805150600.CAA17789@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Yarn 0.89 with YES 0.20 Lines: 25 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3329 > >>From: The4Rogers >>Subject: Re: kitchen cabinets >> >>I am enjoying your site, and obtaining lots of ideas. I'm looking for new >>kitchen cabinets and would like to purchase ones that outgas objectionable >>chemicals the least. I'm finding books in the library on how to build and >>remodel in a healthy way, but no one lists manufacturers to contact about >>their products. Can you give me the names and addresses/phone numbers of >>environmentally responsible kitchen cabinet manufacturers? >> You could try contacting: Enviro Safe Cabinets (Canada) Ltd Suite 300, 4250 Dawson Street Burnaby, BC V5C 4B1 fax (604)298 1057 -- Robert Allender Energy Resources Management tel: +852 2528-2285 Suite 2, 19 Hennessy Road fax: +852 2834-2983 Hong Kong e-mail: allender@asiaonline.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 15 20:18:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA21899 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 20:18:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03507; Fri, 15 May 1998 20:07:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 May 1998 20:03:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA03102 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 20:03:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03098 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 20:02:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Strawnet@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4AXRa02231 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 20:10:18 +2000 (EDT) From: Strawnet Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:10:18 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: building codes again Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Claris Emailer v1.0 sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3330 I wanted to thank everyone who has responded to my post about sustainability and building codes. I've had a number of requests for copies of the papers I mentioned and I've been sending them to people who have expressed an interest. It was suggested that perhaps I could zip them and post them in that form to the list. I need a little advice about the best way to do that so people will be able to read them. If I send them as a zipped attachment, the format may be a problem for some since I'm using a Mac and will have to use either Word or Wordperfect, which not everyone has. So if someone can give me some advice on how best to do it, I will. Otherwise I could just paste them into an e-mail message and send them to the list. but then everyone would be stuck with downloading them and perhaps even reading them. I want to just add a few comments about our work, which might help clarify some of the issues that have been brought up. First this is a very complex set of issues to deal with. The array of organizations, processes, standards, codes, and other regulations is large and quite daunting at the outset (actually long after the outset). I have been working my way into this issue for about three years and have almost gotten past the "why me" phase. A few years ago I would have denied the possibility that I would ever be doing this work. But I saw something that I couldn't ignore and I also couldn't find anyone else who was trying to do what I could see needed to be done. I was just hoping to find out who was focused on this so I could continue on the more comfortable and fun path I was on. Many other members of this list are similarly blessed with overdeveloped senses of responsibility... What I saw was a lack of context. And I came up with a sort of premise for this work which goes: If the justification for building codes is a societal decision that it's important to protect the health and safety of people from the built environment, and if the systems that we've created to achieve that are actually jeopardizing the health and safety of everyone on the planet by encouraging the destruction of the natural systems that we all depend on for our survival, then we are obligated to go back and rethink the codes from this larger perspective. If this is important for individuals in a single building, then it is important for all of us on the single planet we inhabit. Read Bill McKibben's excellent article, "A Special Moment in History" in the current issue of The Atlantic Monthly, if you need a refresher on how large and crucial this bigger context is. The presentations I've been doing for building officials are centered around helping them get out of the box of code-type thinking for a little while and see a much larger context. This slideshow/talk has been very well received in the various places that I've had the opportunity to present it over the past 8 months. I patterned it after a great talk I heard years ago in which the presenter said that he wasn't going to tell us anything we didn't already know, and then proceeded to rearrange our perceptions of the familiar in a way that had everyone nodding in agreement through the whole hour while all our views and assumptions about 'what is' were changed. After several years of working to influence building officials about things like straw bale construction, rubble trench foundations, earthen building systems, graywater systems, etc. and developing dozens of excellent relationships with those officials, I've gotten pretty good at speaking their language, recognizing their concerns and showing them why they need to expand the horizon of what they care about. The overwhelming response that I have heard from those who talk with me after my presentations is "You know I just never thought about any of those things before." Last September I had the opportunity to speak to several hundred building officials at the Annual Business Meeting of the ICBO in Phoenix, on a panel that Bob Fowler (FAIA, P.E., Pasadena, California building official, former Chairman of ICBO, founder of the International Code Council and strong proponent of the performance provisions being developed for the new codes) put together. I had ten minutes to speak and afterward and over the next two days thirty-five building officials came up to talk with me about my presentation. They all told me essentially that I had changed their perception about what they do. The following week I got an e-mail message from the building official in Aspen/Pitken County, Colorado who said he had heard from a New Mexico building official who was in the audience in Phoenix, that what I said had completely changed his attitude about alternative materials and methods of construction. The possibility exists for this change to happen. Afer a presentation I did in Washington, DC recently, I was asked what it was I wanted to change in the codes. I said that what I wanted to change probably isn't in the codes. It's in the minds of the people who write, enforce and other wise use the codes. The hearings in Alexandria were excellent in revealing what is wrong with this system and what is right with it. And also in helping me recognize that the codes are developed and changed by building officials, who vote on those things at these meetings and hearings. It isn't quite the same for all the organizations or all the codes, but in the main, it is the collective group of building officials who have the say. These codes are then adopted by city, county or state jurisdictions and so have a political basis as well. Those things can be either positive or negative, but they create very interesting possibilities. I think we can create these changes from within our communities, with our own officials and inspectors and plans reviewers, through both a top down and bottom up approach. My experience is that, as a rule, building officials take their responsibilities seriously and they care. They just haven't realized that while they try to protect individuals and property in specific buildings they are destroying something more important and valuable, but much harder to see. Sorry for writing such long messages. I'll try to be mindful of your time and perhaps different levels of interest in such things. Thanks for indulging me. David Eisenberg David Eisenberg Co-Director Development Center for Appropriate Technology (DCAT) P.O. Box 27513, Tucson, Arizona 85726-7513 Phone: 520-624-6628 Fax: 520-798-3701 dcat@azstarnet.com (direct/personal e-mail: strawnet@aol.com) http://www.azstarnet.com/~dcat http://www.azstarnet.com/~dcat/barriers.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 16 07:13:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA28616 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 07:13:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA14452; Sat, 16 May 1998 06:59:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 May 1998 06:53:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA14051 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 06:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA14047 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 06:53:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA28478 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 07:01:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dsy21.vineyard.net(206.166.158.79) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma028472; Sat May 16 07:01:23 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 06:25:15 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: Bill McKibben Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3331 David Eisenberg mentions Bill McKibben's Atlantic Monthly article, "A Special Moment in History". McKibben has long been one of my favorite essayists and environmental thinkers. His book, "Hope, Human and Wild" is truly inspiring. But more important at this Special Moment is his new book, from which the Atlantic article was condensed, called "Maybe One." I just finished it and ordered ten copies. Can't think of a nicer gift to give to anyone, for any reason at all. Integrates incisive and soulful thinking about population, only children, environment, aging, and what we need to do these next 50 years (in case we had any questions). John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 16 09:01:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA29088 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 09:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15965; Sat, 16 May 1998 08:45:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 May 1998 08:40:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15740 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 08:40:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15736 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 08:40:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31980; Sat, 16 May 1998 06:47:39 -0600 Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 06:47:38 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Robert Allender Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: environmental kitchen cabinets In-Reply-To: <+rPX1kcJSPtS089yn@asiaonline.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3332 You said:"You could try contacting: Enviro Safe Cabinets (Canada) Ltd Suite 300, 4250 Dawson Street Burnaby, BC V5C 4B1 fax (604)298 1057" _____________________________________________________________________________ Sorry, but they are no longer in business. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 16 20:37:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA06074 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 20:37:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA29593; Sat, 16 May 1998 20:25:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 May 1998 20:21:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA29309 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 20:21:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from norway.it.earthlink.net (norway-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29303 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 20:21:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from earthlink.net (1Cust247.tnt20.nyc3.da.uu.net [208.255.26.247]) by norway.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA12081; Sat, 16 May 1998 17:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <355E2EEA.83F0162@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 20:27:22 -0400 From: Jonathan Harkness X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce CC: John Straube , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Operable Windows in Commercial Buildings References: <355B943A.9148E54E@ivnet.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------AC1654567A2A8D03539A2466" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3333 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------AC1654567A2A8D03539A2466 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many large commercial buildings have large floor plates with interior offices. Even during the Winter, these interior offices often need cooling to offset loads from people, lights and office equipment. At the same time, the perimeter offices experience heat loss due to radiation. Opening a window in this case can cause discomfort to the perimeter occupants, without providing any benefit to the interior occupants. As an alternative, cooling during the winter months can be cost effectively generated from a plate and frame heat exchanger that obtains cold water by running the cooling tower during the winter months. This technique is applied in a lot of large commercial buildings in Northern climates, along with hospitals, research centers and large hotels that may have needs for cooling, but wish to avoid the expense of running chillers. It is much cheaper to run the pumps and take advantage "tower free cooling", than to start up large chillers. Bruce wrote: > John Straube wrote: > > > > I have had this question asked of me so often. When I tell students that > > most office towers are air conditioning all winter long, they say "Why > > not open a window?". I dont have a lot of answers. > > > > I think that almost all of these buildings are set up to provide make-up > air, a varying amount of outside air is mixed in with the recirculated > air, depending on the temperature required at the fresh air ducts. So I > doubt that the chillers would be functioning if the outside air temp was > low enough. I've never built one, or worked on the systems of an older > building, tho. > Bruce Donelson > A Better Builder > Takilma OR --------------AC1654567A2A8D03539A2466 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jonathan Harkness Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Jonathan Harkness n: Harkness;Jonathan adr: PO Box 911;;;Millbrook;NY;12545;USA email;internet: jonharkness@earthlink.net tel;work: 914.877.9153 tel;fax: 914.877.9875 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------AC1654567A2A8D03539A2466-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 16 23:15:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA10030 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 23:15:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03384; Sat, 16 May 1998 23:03:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 May 1998 23:00:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA03146 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 22:59:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03142 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 22:59:51 -0400 (EDT) From: strawboss94@juno.com Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id XoD00585; Sat, 16 May 1998 23:07:00 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: hardpace@juno.com Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 22:06:52 -0500 Subject: GBlist: Re: permits? Message-ID: <19980516.220729.10654.0.strawboss94@juno.com> References: <02222790644405@inforum.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-18 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3334 Please tell me where you are so I can plan NOT to live there! On Sat, 16 May 1998 19:22:27 -0700 acres@inforum.net (Gerald Hughes) writes: > >You guys are breakin' my heart. >for a 1200 SF single family home >on a sloped lot (with a creek at the bottom), >I'm facing $15,000 in permits and fees. >The school fee is $7000+/- alone, and the >road mitigation fee is $6800. >I also need to pave a 250 ft driveway to satisfy the fire dept, >and I need a pumped sepic system to satisfy the health dept. > >All in all about $25,000 before I break ground. > >GHH > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 17 04:50:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA17499 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 04:50:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA09686; Sun, 17 May 1998 04:38:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 May 1998 04:34:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA09483 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 04:34:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA09479 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 04:34:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA07680 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 04:42:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 04:41:51 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: Rodeo Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3335 980517 Recommended for my overwhelming "Lily pad" problem--in my small lake, recall that? Anyone care to comment? Thanks as always! jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 17 09:16:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22710 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 09:16:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13571; Sun, 17 May 1998 09:04:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 May 1998 09:00:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13229 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 09:00:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13224 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 09:00:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA55494; Sun, 17 May 1998 07:07:33 -0600 Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 07:07:32 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: source of quote Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3336 Does anyone have an authoritive reference to this quote? Was it Chief Seattle? Jorg Ostrowski ---------- Forwarded message ---------- The Earth is not given to us by our parents. It is loaned to us by our children. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 17 14:38:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01208 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:38:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20439; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:27:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 May 1998 14:23:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA20167 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20162 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:22:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14350; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:28:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 14:28:14 EDT From: John Straube Subject: Re: GBlist: Operable Windows in Commercial Buildings To: Jonathan Harkness cc: Bruce , greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <355E2EEA.83F0162@earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY=------------AC1654567A2A8D03539A2466 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3337 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --------------AC1654567A2A8D03539A2466 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=us-ascii On Sat, 16 May 1998, Jonathan Harkness wrote: > Many large commercial buildings have large floor plates with interior offices. > Even during the Winter, these interior offices often need cooling to offset > loads from people, lights and office equipment. At the same time, the > perimeter offices experience heat loss due to radiation. Opening a window in > this case can cause discomfort to the perimeter occupants, without providing > any benefit to the interior occupants. Having been involved in the design of several high-rise office towers (to 68 storeys) I am well aware of the above. You have decribed the problem succinctly. In Toronto/Montreal it is practically standard to have convector cabinets below the exterior windows, often continuously, to provide the heat needed to offset the heat loss of the windows. Opening the windows wont solve the core heat problems, but a air-to-air heat excahnger might? > As an alternative, cooling during the winter months can be cost effectively > generated from a plate and frame heat exchanger that obtains cold water by > running the cooling tower during the winter months. This technique is applied > in a lot of large commercial buildings in Northern climates, along with > hospitals, research centers and large hotels that may have needs for cooling, > but wish to avoid the expense of running chillers. It is much cheaper to run > the pumps and take advantage "tower free cooling", than to start up large > chillers. This does make a lot of sense, and I am surprised I havent seen it (I am not an HVAC expert though). It still requires air to pumped around a building though. I wonder that a more floor oriented system would not have advantages by reducing the need for make up air supplied via core risers. While obviously more expensive per unit, the savings in valuable core space should be worth it and control could be mre easily handled ona per floor basis. Thats my concept, it could be completely wrong for a number of reasons. I just have seen any creative attempts yet. Maybe you can comment on why other soultions are not used, Jon, and good ideas that you have? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x --------------AC1654567A2A8D03539A2466-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 17 15:43:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA03302 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 15:43:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21804; Sun, 17 May 1998 15:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 May 1998 15:28:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21550 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 15:27:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21543 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 15:27:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA12-p4.dreamscape.com [209.4.255.4]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA10589 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 15:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <355EF8C7.391D@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 10:48:40 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: source of quote References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3338 Jorg, I haven't found the author of your quote, but I did find this. > Think not forever of yourselves, O Chiefs, nor of your own generation. Think of continuing generations of our families, think of > our grandchildren and of those yet unborn, whose faces are coming from beneath the ground. > > --Peacemaker Is is possible that the quote is from Seneca? That sticks in my mind. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 17 16:45:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA04982 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 16:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA23701; Sun, 17 May 1998 16:33:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 May 1998 16:29:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23397 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 16:28:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23390 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 16:28:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek.dreamscape.com (sA12-p4.dreamscape.com [209.4.255.4]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA20926 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 16:36:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <355F4917.1F27@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:31:19 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Seneca quote Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3339 Jorg, Yet another quote, this search has been fun. > As long as you live, keep learning how to live." > – Seneca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 17 18:09:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA10226 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 18:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25581; Sun, 17 May 1998 17:53:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 May 1998 17:49:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA25211 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 17:49:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25199; Sun, 17 May 1998 17:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA03913; Sun, 17 May 1998 14:55:23 -0700 Message-ID: <355F5C7F.73914B6F@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 14:54:07 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: source of quote References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3340 It was David Brower but the wording was: "We don't inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." best John Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Does anyone have an authoritive reference to this quote? Was it Chief Seattle? > Jorg Ostrowski > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > The Earth is not given to us by our parents. > It is loaned to us by our children. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 17 23:23:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA18875 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 23:23:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03652; Sun, 17 May 1998 23:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 May 1998 23:07:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA03228 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 23:06:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA03216; Sun, 17 May 1998 23:06:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from PGOSUN@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id WYUYa18278; Sun, 17 May 1998 23:13:54 +2000 (EDT) From: PGOSUN Message-ID: <2c04b26a.355fa773@aol.com> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:13:54 EDT To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: strawbale@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: source of quote Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3341 This quote has been long attributed to Chief Sealth (Seattle). However, the "texts" of his speeches were written more than thirty years after his death by someone (who's name escapes me at the moment) who never even heard the 'speech'. It was told to the writer by someone else who was suppose to have heard it. Pamm McFadden ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 18 00:02:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA19845 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:02:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04887; Sun, 17 May 1998 23:50:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 May 1998 23:47:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA04569 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 May 1998 23:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA04565 for ; Sun, 17 May 1998 23:46:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust37.tnt2.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.31.37]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id WAA16711; Sun, 17 May 1998 22:16:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <355F92F8.611E@gte.net> Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 21:46:32 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: source of quote References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3342 Jorg, I've heard this quote, and the one about caring for the seventh generation hence, attributed to the Iroquois. Cindy Pollock Shea ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 18 00:17:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA20229 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:17:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA05298; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 May 1998 00:02:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA05090 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:01:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR03 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.159]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA05086 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 00:01:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default - 153.35.103.97 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 17 May 1998 21:09:12 -0700 Message-ID: <004901bd8213$00950e80$2375fad0@default> From: "Jeffery S. Green" To: Subject: GBlist: solar cost justification Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:09:21 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3343 I am looking for information on the cost of building and fuel difference between two different houses of mostly the same except one is built with passive solar architecture. My group is trying to bring solar to a downtown housing development in Park Forest, Illinois USA. If some one has data already collected as to the differences between the two that are measured results, it would be greatly appreciated in our presentation. Thank you for your time. Jeff Green 102 S. Maple Frankfort, Illinois 60423 815-469-5334 jeff_green@msn.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 18 08:35:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA01358 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 08:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15039; Mon, 18 May 1998 08:24:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 May 1998 08:18:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA14734 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 08:18:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA14729 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 08:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA28242; Mon, 18 May 1998 08:26:23 -0400 Message-id: <3330608@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 18 May 98 08:26:42 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: graywater/compost toilets To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: DJackeNHD@aol.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3344 I'm working with several cohousing groups that are intending to use composting toilets. Two questions: 1) the 2 products I have identified as viable composters for year-around housing are Clivus Multrum and Phoenix. Others seem too small and/or use too much power. Any other suggestions? 2) we'll need a graywater treatment system. Any leads? These communities will be in VT, NY, and MA. 16 to 30 units of housing plus a Common House. Thanks Marc Rosenbaum Energysmiths ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 18 08:58:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA02077 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 08:58:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA16051; Mon, 18 May 1998 08:47:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 May 1998 08:42:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15578 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 08:41:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15574; Mon, 18 May 1998 08:41:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79780; Mon, 18 May 1998 06:49:00 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 06:48:59 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: Strawbale Listserver , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: source of quote In-Reply-To: <355F5C7F.73914B6F@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3345 You said:" It was David Brower but the wording was: "We don't inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children." _______________________________________________________________________________ John: Who is David Brower? Have you seen this quote in a reference? Jorg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 18 09:10:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02936 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 09:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA16802; Mon, 18 May 1998 08:58:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 May 1998 08:53:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA16367 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 08:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA16362; Mon, 18 May 1998 08:53:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24068; Mon, 18 May 1998 07:00:54 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:00:54 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Cindy Shea Cc: Strawbale Listserver , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Iroquois Quote? In-Reply-To: <355F92F8.611E@gte.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3346 Does anyone have a reference to the following quote that Cindy may have been referring to: The Great Law of the Iroquois Nation says: "In our every deliberation, we must consider the impact of our discussions on the next seven generations" -from AHA Home Page, http://www.getnet.com/charity/aha/ Jorg Ostrowski __________________________________________________________________________ On Sun, 17 May 1998, Cindy Shea wrote: > > I've heard this quote, and the one about caring for the seventh > generation hence, attributed to the Iroquois. > > Cindy Pollock Shea > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 18 11:22:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08242 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22254; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:10:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 May 1998 11:05:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21797 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21786 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA15866; Mon, 18 May 1998 08:10:38 -0700 Message-ID: <35604F21.BE7CF190@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 08:09:22 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, DJackeNHD@aol.com Subject: Re: GBlist: graywater/compost toilets References: <3330608@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3347 Hi Marc When I was looking at larger systems my list was narrowed to the Phoenix. Bio-Sun looked good because of the potential for sizing and forced aeration (compressor) but may have been on your list of power consuming. I also liked rota-loo (australian model) or similar chamber type approach, had a good in usage review from a Greenpeace application. I developed a custom built that incorporated some additional liquid treatment - there is potential in an engineered approach to combine more dubious greywater with the liquid from a composter for secondary or tertiary treatment. David Del Porto of Sustainable Strategies (Ecological Engineering) would be a good resource for both toilet application (I think deals with Phoenix) and grey water. http://www.ecological-engineering.com/ss.html Sustainable Strategies 152 Commonwealth Avenue Concord, Massachusetts 01742-2943 Tel.: 508/369-9440 Fax: 508/369-2484 John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > I'm working with several cohousing groups that are intending to use composting > toilets. Two questions: > > 1) the 2 products I have identified as viable composters for year-around > housing are Clivus Multrum and Phoenix. Others seem too small and/or use too > much power. Any other suggestions? > > 2) we'll need a graywater treatment system. Any leads? These communities will > be in VT, NY, and MA. 16 to 30 units of housing plus a Common House. > > Thanks > > Marc Rosenbaum > Energysmiths > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 18 12:43:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA11138 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 12:43:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26997; Mon, 18 May 1998 12:31:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 May 1998 12:27:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26646 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 May 1998 12:27:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26642 for ; Mon, 18 May 1998 12:27:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA26754; Mon, 18 May 1998 11:34:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md11-51.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.179) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma026607; Mon May 18 11:33:34 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980518123205.00748148@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:32:08 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: passive solar op. costs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3348 Passive Solar Design ---------------------- Illinois was an early hot bed of interest in passive solar in the 1940's. Then HVAC began to be aggressively marketed while energy was "cheap" and predicted to become "too cheap to meter," if you believed Redi-KiloWatt(tm). Today passive solar design represents the best proven solar application, next to solar water heating, according to many studies. There is a large body of information from several hundred monitored passive solar buildings around the world, indicating that even with a severe climate and modest improvements in conservation and fenestration, a passive building (we actually like the term 'climate-specific designed') will perform well. I was involved in the National Solar Data Program in the 1970's and early '80s that looked at (mostly one-off) passive solar buildings. We found that climate specific building practices like passive solar design were cost-effective, affordable (except when compared to natural gas heat in very mild climates) and could boost comfort in homes. Some early passive buildings did have problems; like seasonal overheating due to excess glass areas, more air infiltration due to lack of general heat-loss detailing (weatherization), and thermal mass that was not sufficiently spread out on indoor surfaces to effectively temper swings in energy loading (gains -v- losses). Also, due to the more 'natural' temperature swings and better daylighting many occupants of passive solar homes felt a better sense of well-being according to surveys. Obviously this is hard to assign a dollar value or performance coefficient to, but passive solar homes were among the first "healthy buildings" and were identified as such but other passive solar pioneers like Doug Balcolm and John Spears. Performance Expectations -- In Illinois: sun-tempered (orientation of windows, and better insulation) savings range: 20% to 30% on heating costs: 0 to 1% passive solar heating (like sun-tempered, but with larger glazing and thermal mass design) savings range: 30% to 50% costs: 1% to 3% total climate specific design / life cycle economics (like passive solar heating, but also looking at lower cooling, indoor air quality, landscaping, application of integrated building science principals) savings range: 50% to 75% heating / 45% to 90% cooling costs: 3% to 7% Comments and other data on the above ranges are most welcome. Many more detailed passive solar study results are discussed in papers listed at: Most builders can implement stage one without consulting support. However, as one prepares to apply more dramatic climate specific design principles, it is often wise to retain an energy consultant unless your project is being designed by an experienced architect/designer with access to passive solar analysis "design tools." Reality Check -- I recommend you do some analysis to find out a closer estimate of indoor comfort, auxiliary energy use, and other performance factors based on the home plans you have; begin to modify the design keeping thermal protection, glazing size orientation and performance in mind, then adding thermal storage if necessary. Computer tools can help you quickly check your changes on an incremental basis. Useful, well developed computer tools for this purpose may be obtained from the Passive Solar Industries Council (PSIC) you wrote: ================= >Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:09:21 -0500 >From: "Jeffery S. Green" >Subject: GBlist: solar cost justification > >I am looking for information on the cost of building and fuel difference >between two different houses of mostly the same except one is built with >passive solar architecture. My group is trying to bring solar to a downtown >housing development in Park Forest, Illinois USA. If some one has data >already collected as to the differences between the two that are measured >results, it would be greatly appreciated in our presentation. Thank you for >your time. > >Jeff Green >102 S. Maple >Frankfort, Illinois 60423 >815-469-5334 >jeff_green@msn.com | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 19 09:55:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16550 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 09:55:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28144; Tue, 19 May 1998 09:44:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 May 1998 09:39:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27785 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 09:39:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from AICS.NET (aics.net [209.21.198.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27780 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 09:39:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.21.198.40] ([209.21.198.40]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 4518400 ; Tue, 19 May 1998 09:49:29 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:49:40 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: Re: Composting toilets and greywater Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3349 >greenbuilding-digest Tuesday, May 19 1998 Volume 02 : Number 185 > > > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: 18 May 98 08:26:42 EDT >From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) >Subject: GBlist: graywater/compost toilets > Mark, the Carousel is the only NSF certified batch composter that has been in use in the US since 1981. Checkout www.ecological-engineering.com/ecotech.html for details. I'll arrange to have literature sent to you. Grey water new to the NE regulators we have designed and recieved approvalfor many sites in Massachusetts, but it's on a case-by-case basis. No blanket approvals yet. AZ, CA and WA have well articulated policy and procedures. Most are based on pretreated subsurface irrigation of 60% of the design flow (110 gpbd) 66 gallons per bedroom per day. But the soils anaysis has to support subsurace disposal. We like to use it up, with thirsty, hardy evergreens like bamboo or in a greehouse. Rain pentration in outdoor sealed beds gives us headaches. David Del Porto Sustainable Strategies Ecological Engineering, Planning and Design 152 Commonwealth Avenue Concord, Massachusetts USA 01742-2968 Phone/Voice-mail: 978 369 9440 Fax/Telecopier: 978 369 2484 Web site: www.ecological-engineering.com E-mail: sustainable@aics.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 19 10:04:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16785 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 10:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28707; Tue, 19 May 1998 09:53:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 May 1998 09:49:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28356 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 09:49:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.state.vt.us (mail.state.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28344 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 09:49:10 -0400 (EDT) From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Received: from vdhvax ([159.105.135.2]) by mail.state.vt.us (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-44988U13000L13000S0) with SMTP id AAA230 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 10:03:09 -0400 Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:54:04 -2359 Message-Id: <98051909540389@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Dander in carpets X-VMS-To: SMTP%"greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3350 Several weeks ago, someone posted information about a journal aritcle/study in New Zealand (?) regarding the large amount of animal dander found in carpets in schools. I've looked through the GBList archives, but have been unable to find this post. Could someone point me to this article/study? Thanks. Mike Rogers mrogers@vdh.state.vt.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 19 14:07:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA25965 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 14:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11519; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 May 1998 13:51:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA11145 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11139 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:51:31 -0400 (EDT) From: woodeneagle@juno.com Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NcA01904; Tue, 19 May 1998 13:58:25 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:07:10 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #183 Message-ID: <19980519.100710.11526.2.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199805170600.CAA07267@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.23 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-13,18-20 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3351 You guys are breakin' my heart. >for a 1200 SF single family home >on a sloped lot (with a creek at the bottom), >I'm facing $15,000 in permits and fees. >The school fee is $7000+/- alone, and the >road mitigation fee is $6800. >I also need to pave a 250 ft driveway to satisfy the fire dept, >and I need a pumped sepic system to satisfy the health dept. > >All in all about $25,000 before I break ground. > >GHH In developing areas, the added costs of infrastructure should be bourne by new construction. If we are ever able to develop a sustainable community, we must pay the true costs of development. Subsidies of infrastructure, permiting and land use planning can be a leading cause of sprawl, and will invite the incorporation of non-sustainable practices. Scott Waterman _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 19 22:08:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA11228 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 22:08:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA01206; Tue, 19 May 1998 21:56:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 May 1998 21:52:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA00810 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 21:52:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA00805 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 21:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust12.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.12]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id VAA05722; Tue, 19 May 1998 21:00:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35607678.552E@gte.net> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:57:12 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeffery S. Green" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: solar cost justification References: <004901bd8213$00950e80$2375fad0@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3352 Jeffery, You may want to try the Dept of Energy's Center of Excellence for Sustainable Development http://www.sustainable.gov.doe and the Rocky Mountain Institute http://www.rmi.org The former has a huge data base and Bill Becker, the director, has been involved in rebuilding flooded communities using renewables technologies since Soldier's Grove, WI, was relocated out of the floodplain in the 70s. RMI has a green development services program, run by Bill Browning. The two have joint published a book and CD on Green Developments: Integrating Real Estate and Ecology. Good luck, Cindy Pollock Shea http://sustainable.state.fl.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 19 22:11:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA11284 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 22:11:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA01398; Tue, 19 May 1998 21:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 May 1998 21:55:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA01054 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 May 1998 21:55:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA01046 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 21:55:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from RodLambert@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4SHGa25760 for ; Tue, 19 May 1998 22:02:58 +2000 (EDT) From: RodLambert Message-ID: Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:02:58 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: graywater/compost toilets Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3353 Marc, Don't know if Dave Jackie got back to you but I saw a packet of materials from Real Goods (1 800 919 2400) which I think may have been sent to us by him that plugs Sun Mar and BioLet both with power and no power options. Dave also has some good ideas on grey water systems. What I personally would appreciate hearing is testimony from people who have used these types of toilets in real situations, ie. family of four over at least a one year period for example. It also seems possible that the powered options could double as 'exhaust only' air change systems. Rod Lambert Development Management Second Neighborhood Group Ecovillage at Ithaca NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 20 00:56:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA16077 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 00:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA05688; Wed, 20 May 1998 00:45:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 May 1998 00:41:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA05442 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 00:41:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA05438 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 00:41:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust231.tnt6.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.17.231]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA24563; Tue, 19 May 1998 21:49:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <356260D5.E15@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:49:25 -0700 From: David Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RodLambert CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: graywater/compost toilets References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3354 RodLambert wrote: > I saw a packet of materials from > Real Goods (1 800 919 2400) which I think may have been sent to us by him that > plugs Sun Mar and BioLet both with power and no power options. > What I personally would appreciate hearing is testimony from people who have > used these types of toilets in real situations... I installed the Sun-Mar NE model a few years back. It is their smallest model; NE means No Electric. It is a low-capacity composting unit designed for occassional-use remote locations, such as remote cabins. the composting depends upon slow decomposition, turning the drum regularly. We installed it in such a location, and it certainly does work, but in a low/occasional use situation only. Season to season it produces nice rich compost (you mix in peat with each use, and turn the drum regularly). Seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 20 05:46:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA23043 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA11206; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:34:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 May 1998 05:29:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA10965 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bdg.centrin.net.id (bdg.centrin.net.id [202.146.253.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA10961 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 05:29:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805200929.FAA10961@solstice.crest.org> Received: from default ([202.146.253.226]) by bdg.centrin.net.id (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with ESMTP id AAA27385; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:38:21 +0700 From: "Denny" To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: source of quote Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:35:15 +0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3355 Jorg, I had read a coincidentally, very similar quote before, which goes: "Treat the earth well. It was not given to you by your parents. It was lent to you by your children." This quote is loosely translated from a Traditional Kenyan Proverb, if I'm not mistaken. regard, Denny denzst@technologist.com ---------- : From: Jorg D. Ostrowski : To: GreenBuilding Listserver : Cc: Strawbale Listserver : Subject: GBlist: source of quote : Date: 17 Mei 1998 20:07 : : Does anyone have an authoritive reference to this quote? Was it Chief Seattle? : Jorg Ostrowski : ---------- Forwarded message ---------- : The Earth is not given to us by our parents. : It is loaned to us by our children. : : ______________________________________________________________________ : This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST : Environmental Building News and Oikos : For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. : ______________________________________________________________________ : ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 20 07:20:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA25086 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 07:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA13583; Wed, 20 May 1998 07:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 May 1998 07:04:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA13353 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 07:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA13349 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 07:04:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sover.net (usr0a49.burl.sover.net [207.136.202.49]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA16713 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 07:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3562BA71.CD0E3384@sover.net> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 07:11:46 -0400 From: Eric Warren X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuild List Subject: GBlist: fire retardants Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3356 Hi, Anyone out there have any experience with fire retardants? I want to use some on a wood ceiling I've put in - clear finish. There are a couple of products out there which claim environmental friendliness and to be non-toxic - is this true? Do they work? Thanx, Eric Warren (ewarren@sover.net) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 20 08:50:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA27211 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 08:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA16270; Wed, 20 May 1998 08:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 May 1998 08:34:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15934 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 08:34:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15930 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 08:34:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([207.34.28.154]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA12577 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 08:42:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3562D0EC.826@pei.sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:47:40 -0300 From: Phil Ferraro Reply-To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: test-ignore Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3357 test ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 20 10:05:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29501 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 10:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA20143; Wed, 20 May 1998 09:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 May 1998 09:48:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19448 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 09:47:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19435; Wed, 20 May 1998 09:47:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 0DHSa17533; Wed, 20 May 1998 09:55:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf Message-ID: <83322713.3562e0ca@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 09:55:21 EDT To: iaq@onelist.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Further Evidence of IAQ Industry Growth Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3358 Pershing Investment Research Expands Coverage On Trion SANFORD, N.C., May 20 /PRNewswire/ -- TRION, INC: (Nasdaq: TRON) It was announced that Joan T. Goodman, Vice President in the Investment Research Department of the Pershing Division of Donaldson, Lufkin & Jenrette Securities Corporation, has issued an updated report and "Purchase Recommendation" on Trion, Inc. This report comes on the heels of the release of the Company's first quarter results which showed an 18% increase in sales and a significant increase in net income. Trion, a leader in indoor air quality (IAQ) since 1947, specializes in products that focus on health and safety with specific emphasis on the environment in industry and the home. Trion is a publicly traded company and is listed as TRON on the NASDAQ exchange. SOURCE Trion, Inc. CO: Trion, Inc. ST: North Carolina ("information for one-time member use under the Federal Library Act.") ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 20 10:12:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29737 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 10:12:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20650; Wed, 20 May 1998 10:01:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 May 1998 09:57:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA20310 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 09:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA20306 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 09:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA16885; Wed, 20 May 1998 07:02:45 -0700 Message-ID: <3562E23B.BE44FDA3@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 07:01:31 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: fire retardants References: <3.0.3.32.19980520095725.008349e0@scgcorp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3359 A foil radiant barrier behind the siding might be more effective and double for moisture as well as radiant properties John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. > > > > Anyone out there have any experience with fire retardants? I want to > >use some on a wood ceiling I've put in - clear finish. There are a > >couple of products out there which claim environmental friendliness and > >to be non-toxic - is this true? Do they work? > > > >Thanx, > > > >Eric Warren (ewarren@sover.net) > >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 20 11:18:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01971 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:18:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24644; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 May 1998 11:02:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24126 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:02:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24110; Wed, 20 May 1998 11:02:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA23081; Wed, 20 May 1998 10:09:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md11-31.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.159) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma023058; Wed May 20 10:09:21 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980520110753.00770da4@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 11:07:59 -0400 To: ee-building@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: EEBA 98 Registration "Live" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, energysoft@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3360 1998 "Excellence in Building" Conference Update -------------------------------------------------- With over 75 papers and presentations now slotted, and our 10 dedicated Track Chairs' invitation of dozens more top speakers, the EEBA Excellence in Building conference October 28-31 in Washington, DC is gaining momentum. According to Conference Chair, John Spears , by June 12, the total conference program including invited speakers, special tracks -- like "Financing Residential Energy Efficiency," "Builders," the "Advanced HVAC Diagnostics" and other pre-conference training workshops will be complete. Also, a significant number of booth spaces are already reserved for the EEBA "Expo" held at the conference site. To save money and time registering for this meeting, EEBA and CREST (our web host) have developed a secure form so you can quickly and easily register via credit card. Link to: to check it out. This form works just like the secure commerce center of the EEBA Bookstore and protects your order information using the PGP system (now part of Network Associates, Corp.) and the secure sockets layer built into web servers and browsers. Thanks for your consideration. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bion D. Howard, Associate Director EEBA Mid Atlantic Region Office PO Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 20 12:19:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA04858 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 12:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27723; Wed, 20 May 1998 12:07:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 May 1998 12:03:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA27379 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 12:02:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA27375 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 12:02:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail2.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Wed, 20 May 1998 11:16:24 +0100 Date: Wed, 20 May 98 11:16:52 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: kitchen cabinets To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5236037.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3361 The Swedish department store and catalogue order, Ikea, has formaldehyde free cabinets. They also have natural fabrics dyed with organically grown plant dyes. -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 20 16:49:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA15251 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:49:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12881; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 May 1998 16:33:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA12470 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:33:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA12466 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:33:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (chtw09-26.pei.sympatico.ca [207.34.31.170]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA04523 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 16:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3563412A.7A79@pei.sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 17:46:34 -0300 From: Phil Ferraro Reply-To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: IBS eco-village Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3362 To Green Builders We are the co-directors of The Institute for Bioregional Studies Ltd. (IBS) based in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, Canada. IBS, along with its sister company, Fortune Bay Ecolodge Designs, plans to construct a model ecovillage that will function as an eco tourism destination site during the peak summer months and as an environmental education facility in the shoulder seasons. We would be pleased to send you a WordPerfect file that describes our background, our project and our very credible list of advisors. A component of our village will include an environmental hardware store where people will be able to purchase building materials, alternative energy implements and/or environmentally friendly products. Strawbales, Yurts, Domes, Cast Earth etc. are all viable options that we will be considering. (No vinyl, pressure treated wood or aluminum please.) We are posting to this list an a request for quotes for turn-key solar designed cottages built with "green" materials. Here is an opportunity to put your ideas and experience to action. Prospective builders/designers must be able to provide references of your abilities and experience. Our plans call for starting with 10 - 2 bedroom cottages, approximately 400-450 sq. ft.; a lodge with a restaurant, lobby, meeting room and 20 guest rooms (250-280 sq. ft. each) and a camp ground for 60+ recreational vehicles and 100 tent sites. We will also be adding about 10 stores selling green goods and services. The site will generate its own power; incorporate permaculture design to grown a large portion of the food and will recycle its waste water with a living machine. Please respond by direct email to: pei.adapt@pei.sympatico.ca Thank you. Phil Ferraro and Nancy Willis, co directors IBS 393 University Avenue, Suite 126 Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island Canada C1A 4N4 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 20 19:37:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21335 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:37:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19507; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:25:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 May 1998 19:21:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA19218 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:21:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA19214 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:21:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (chtw02-19.pei.sympatico.ca [207.34.30.67]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA11140 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:28:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35636884.7C86@pei.sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:34:28 -0300 From: Phil Ferraro Reply-To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: IBS ecolodge address correction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3363 OOOPs! I posted the wrong address to contact us regarding the IBS Eco-village project. It should be: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca -- Phil Ferraro and Nancy Willis ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 20 20:15:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA22773 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 20:15:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA21685; Wed, 20 May 1998 20:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 May 1998 19:59:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA20681 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA20677 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id TAA0000021556; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:07:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980521001015.00694378@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 19:10:15 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: French Drain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3364 We will shortly be 'installing' a french drain around three sides of the perimeter of a cabin built into a hill, and though we've done it before, I am receiving conflicting advice about the 'tile' that should be used and the best way to cover it. The scenerio that seems the best to me is as follows: at the base of the footing put down poly, some gravel (a couple of inches) and then a drain like that which is used in septic fields covered with more gravel, at least a foot, then landscape fabric with dirt on top of that. Is there a better way? Do I have enough gravel? Should I take the gravel all the way to the surface on the side that is against a 3 ft berm off of which will run most of the water? Suggestions received with pleasure. Basically I want to ensure no water comes around those footings. Unfortunately the footings will be poured in a trench so the french drain will require excavation to put it in. The last time we did this, where there was less of a hill and less of a berm, it proved a totally unecessary job. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 20 20:39:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA23433 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 20:39:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23728; Wed, 20 May 1998 20:27:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 May 1998 20:23:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA23418 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 20:23:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA23410 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 20:23:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust180.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.180]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id TAA06463 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 19:30:54 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35637661.21A4@gte.net> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:33:37 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: URL for DOE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3365 Whoops. Hal just alerted me to a transposition in the URL I posted for the Dept of Energy's Center of Excellence for Sustainable Development. The correct address is http://www.sustainable.doe.gov I just checked to make sure, and there's now an entire section on green building. Cindy Pollock Shea ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 20 22:38:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA26994 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 22:38:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA27727; Wed, 20 May 1998 22:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 May 1998 22:22:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA27476 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 22:21:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27472 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 22:21:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.32] (blf32.acadia.net [205.217.217.32]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA26372 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 22:29:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:30:13 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: French Drain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3366 Dear Sacie, Although it will be more money, I would use crushed stone instead of gravel around the drain tiles in the French drain. Crushed stone will make a better drainage matrix than gravel. I don't see the necessity of poly sheeting on the bottom of the trench, but I would wrap the pipe and stone in "filter fabric", which permits moisture to pass but keeps the pipe/stone assembly from clogging with silt. The pipe should, of course, be perforated in the area of the drain, with the holes at the bottom. I prefer smooth wall, rigid pipe to corrugated, as the corrugations impede water flow. Here in Maine, we can buy drain pipe made of recycled High Density Polyethylene, which is relatively benign, instead of Poly-Vinyl Chloride, which is not. Typically, pipe is perforated in the area to be drained; water is then led "to daylight" in unperforated pipe. We like to use perforated pipe for the last 5 to 10 feet of the run, so that if the outfall "at daylight" becomes frozen or clogged, water can still escape. We bed that last 5 to 10 feet in crushed stone too. If this seems like a lot of bother, remember that the house is only as good as the foundation, and the foundation is only as good as the drainage. Good luck - I hope this is helpful. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 20 23:14:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA28152 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 23:14:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA28828; Wed, 20 May 1998 23:03:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 May 1998 22:59:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28572 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 May 1998 22:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA28567 for ; Wed, 20 May 1998 22:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA11258; Wed, 20 May 1998 20:05:04 -0700 Message-ID: <35639991.BF34D10A@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 20:03:45 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: French Drain References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3367 David's comments are excellent and I would agree about the poly. Let the exist absorb as much as possible. I'm confused and curious about the crushed though I would have feared the potential of smaller particles clogging and if it is washed crushed - it gets a little overly complex on the processing side. On the comment I made about letting the existing do some of the work; the problem of a single outlet is concentrated flows causing soil erosion. If you can create some dispersion it would be nice, can be as simple as a dry creek bed lined with some larger stone that can distribute the flow over a larger area (in fact the entire drainage area can take this approach without the pipe). A french swale ditch was originally composed of just rock and the rock was often left exposed as a pathway. Keeping the 'path' free of soil eliminates much of the necessity of a covered pipe and even a course of 'over' size rock with fabric above can do the same. This will again allow for a greater dispersion. Poly pipe is preferable to pvc pipe although it is only readily available in a corrugated form. I think the corrugations can be an asset in a large diameter pipe if you are not expecting overly large flows, as they create turbulence in the flow (though water quality in this kind of drainage is not really a concern, its still nice to mimic nature when you get a chance) PS Sacie, you should have put the cabin on piers when you had the chance. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. David M. Foley wrote: > Dear Sacie, > > Although it will be more money, I would use crushed stone instead of gravel > around the drain tiles in the French drain. Crushed stone will make a > better drainage matrix than gravel. I don't see the necessity of poly > sheeting on the bottom of the trench, but I would wrap the pipe and stone > in "filter fabric", which permits moisture to pass but keeps the pipe/stone > assembly from clogging with silt. The pipe should, of course, be > perforated in the area of the drain, with the holes at the bottom. I > prefer smooth wall, rigid pipe to corrugated, as the corrugations impede > water flow. Here in Maine, we can buy drain pipe made of recycled High > Density Polyethylene, which is relatively benign, instead of Poly-Vinyl > Chloride, which is not. Typically, pipe is perforated in the area to be > drained; water is then led "to daylight" in unperforated pipe. We like to > use perforated pipe for the last 5 to 10 feet of the run, so that if the > outfall "at daylight" becomes frozen or clogged, water can still escape. > We bed that last 5 to 10 feet in crushed stone too. > > If this seems like a lot of bother, remember that the house is only as good > as the foundation, and the foundation is only as good as the drainage. > Good luck - I hope this is helpful. > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 21 01:10:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA01492 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 01:10:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA01613; Thu, 21 May 1998 00:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 May 1998 00:54:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA01379 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 00:54:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nov.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA01374 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 00:54:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.110] (p110.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.110]) by nov.diac.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA18894 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 03:00:38 GMT Message-Id: <199805210300.DAA18894@nov.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Composting Toliets Date: Wed, 20 May 98 23:06:05 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3368 On 5/19/98 12:00 AM Marc wrote: >I'm working with several cohousing groups that are intending to use >composting toilets. Two questions: > >1) the 2 products I have identified as viable composters for year-around >housing are Clivus Multrum and Phoenix. Others seem too small and/or use too >much power. Any other suggestions? As usual, I'm reading this about 3 days late, but here are a few comments. Sun Mar is quite popular, but I've never talked with anyone who used one on a regular basis and liked it. I have a friend who is hard-core self-sufficient; he built the only two story load-bearing straw bale house I've seen, which included a Sun Mar - he yanked it after just 3 months. The Clivus, Phoenix, and Carousel all have good reputations. One sees a lot of Clivus's now in commercial applications, like highway rest areas (I just used one two days ago; it was a 10-seater). For residences, what I'm seeing mostly is built-in-place solar composters. The technology is fairly simple. The key is to design them into the buildings early on; they need access underneath and solar exposure. They cannot be tacked on after the design is completed. >2) we'll need a graywater treatment system. Any leads? These communities >will be in VT, NY, and MA. 16 to 30 units of housing plus a Common House. We're not doing a constructed wetlands, because we don't have that much water, but that is something you might consider. Plus, going to a group system in Colorado means one suddenly is under state instead of county jurisdiction, which is bad, but each state has a completely different set of regs, so you'de have to check in each place. Greywater recycling systems, to me, are problematic, from a legal standpoint (noting David E's post of last week). Again, totally depending on what county you are in, what is likely to be approved is sort of a glorified leach field, but at an increased cost and hassle factor. One has to double plumb the drain pipe, put in various filters and controls, and then it all ends up subsurface outdoors anyway. Getting approval for more of a "closed loop" system may be a struggle. I just talked with someone who did just that (a classic Earthship style system), and the process took him 3 months and some determined behavior. As I mentioned here last year, the easiest greywater system is to put in a regular septic system, while also double plumbing the drains with a "Y" valve at the bottom, with one side going out to the septic and the other capped off. Approval is quick and easy, and then the owner can go finish the pipe run, turn the valve, and run the greywater anywhere he/she wants to, and feels is safe. In a few months, I'll be at the same stage of investigation as yourself, and so I greatly look forward to seeing what you come up with! Buzz Burrell Bolder Building ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 21 05:57:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA09281 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 05:57:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA07801; Thu, 21 May 1998 05:46:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 May 1998 05:42:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA07574 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 05:41:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.93.1.168]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA07570 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 05:41:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-42.netcom.ca [207.181.90.106]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA06304 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 05:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805210949.FAA06304@tor-smtp2.netcom.ca> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 04:44:15 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Norbert Senf Subject: GBlist: announce: online strawbale workshop Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3369 Hello Everyone: For an online photo report of last weekend's strawbale workshop at Camp Au Grand Bois, Ladysmith, Quebec, featuring Linda Chapman and Michel Bergeron, see: www.mha-net.org/msb/html/strawagb.htm Best...........Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 21 07:15:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA11229 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 07:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA09211; Thu, 21 May 1998 07:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 May 1998 06:58:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA08925 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 06:58:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from millkern.com (millkern.com [205.197.248.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA08921 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 06:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dnatella (asc229.idsonline.com [207.176.21.229]) by millkern.com (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id HAA08148 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 07:06:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980521070859.008c5a90@scgcorp.com> X-Sender: dnatella@scgcorp.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 07:08:59 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Dave Natella Subject: Re: GBlist: fire retardants Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3370 In an earlier post, I gave the wrong telephone number for a service bulletin published by U.S. Borax. The correct telephone number is: (800)729-2672 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dave Natella The Scientific Consulting Group, Inc. Suite 210 656 Quince Orchard Road Gaithersburg, MD 20878-1409 Tel: (301)670-4990 Fax: (301)670-3815 e-mail: dnatella@scgcorp.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 21 08:33:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA13136 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 08:33:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10808; Thu, 21 May 1998 08:22:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 May 1998 08:18:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA10552 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 08:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from math.mit.edu (MATH.MIT.EDU [18.87.0.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10543 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 08:17:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from severi.mit.edu (SEVERI.MIT.EDU [18.87.0.68]) by math.mit.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA08987 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 08:25:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from julie@localhost) by severi.mit.edu (8.8.7/8.6.9) id IAA16104; Thu, 21 May 1998 08:25:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 08:25:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805211225.IAA16104@severi.mit.edu> From: Julie Rehmeyer To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: greywater treatment and dry wells? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3371 I have read about the use of dry wells for greywater treatment, with the claim that they are legal almost everywhere but little-known. Is a dry well a good idea? Is it in fact usually legal? Julie ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 21 10:39:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA18192 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:39:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15824; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:27:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 May 1998 10:22:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15542 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15533 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:22:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA20067; Thu, 21 May 1998 07:28:02 -0700 Message-ID: <356439AB.D8CA15D6@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 07:26:51 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julie Rehmeyer CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: greywater treatment and dry wells? References: <199805211225.IAA16104@severi.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3372 A number of areas have regulations on cement plugging of unused or 'dry' wells. The reason is to try and prevent further groundwater contamination (as a well is a direct line for surface water contamination especially if it has been fractured. You can imagine the potential for contamination from pumping greywater into an aquifer and regardless of how dry the well might seem and what type of material the greywater would pass through I can't imagine any kind of adequate filtration. I think it is best if we take the attitude that we need to contain and purify to the best extent we can ANY contaminating material before we release it. Nature is a wonderful host but we don't want to seem like unappreciative guests John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Julie Rehmeyer wrote: > I have read about the use of dry wells for greywater treatment, with > the claim that they are legal almost everywhere but little-known. Is > a dry well a good idea? Is it in fact usually legal? > > Julie > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 21 11:07:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA19247 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 11:07:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17482; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:55:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 May 1998 10:51:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17153 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from math.mit.edu (MATH.MIT.EDU [18.87.0.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17149 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from severi.mit.edu (SEVERI.MIT.EDU [18.87.0.68]) by math.mit.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12646; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:59:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from julie@localhost) by severi.mit.edu (8.8.7/8.6.9) id KAA18285; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:59:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 10:59:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805211459.KAA18285@severi.mit.edu> From: Julie Rehmeyer To: terrain@cow-net.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <356439AB.D8CA15D6@cow-net.com> (message from John Salmen on Thu, 21 May 1998 07:26:51 -0700) Subject: Re: GBlist: greywater treatment and dry wells? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3373 John -- By "dry well" I didn't mean a well that had previously been tapping an aquifier but now has run dry. What I had in mind was simply a big hole in the ground, either lined with cement blocks with spacing between the blocks in a single course or loosely filled with rocks, which is then covered. The idea is to have a place below grade for the greywater to percolate into the soil. Here's a reference: "Wells and Septic Systems" by Max and Charlotte Alth, revised by S. Blackwell Duncan, 2nd ed., 1992 McGraw Hill They comment that unlike surface greywater disposal, dry wells are legal "nearly everywhere". Julie ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 21 12:01:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21622 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 12:01:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20474; Thu, 21 May 1998 11:50:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 May 1998 11:46:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA19986 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 11:46:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19980 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 11:46:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from flash.net (san2asc1-29.flash.net [209.30.152.29]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA02732 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 10:54:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35645174.99850773@flash.net> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 11:08:20 -0500 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding List Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Rating Systems References: <199805150257.CAA06619@nov.diac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3374 Buzz Burrell wrote: > I'm rewriting the Covenants for the small cohousing development I'm > working on. ...To that end, I would like to collect and read some of the > many different > "green rating" systems in use around the country, in order to incorporate > the best of these into our own document (IOW, to make my job quicker and > easier). ... but I would like to peruse more ... green rating > systems from governments, utilities, or best yet, private developments. > I'm personally leaning toward a points system, so those would be > particularly appreciated. > > Kindly send your recommendations to me or the List. Thanks much. > > Buzz Burrell > Geneva Development Corporation > Boulder, CO > buzz@diac.com > _________ Buzz, If you havn't already done so, point your browser at: http://red.glo.state.tx.us/vlb/gbcklist.html. This is the Texas Veterans Land Board Greenbuilding Checklist, used to determine how Green one is building. This, in turn, determines elegibility for reduced mortgage loan percentages. Hope it helps, Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 21 13:26:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA24905 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:26:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24611; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:14:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 May 1998 13:10:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24174 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:10:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mkf.MKF.ORNL.GOV (mkf.ornl.gov [134.167.90.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24166 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:10:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mkfor3.mkf.ornl.gov by mkf.MKF.ORNL.GOV (NTMail 3.00.06) id aa369567 Thu, 21 May 98 17:26:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mkfor3.MKF.ORNL.GOV with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.12.736) id <01BD84BB.1AFE34E0@mkfor3.MKF.ORNL.GOV>; Thu, 21 May 1998 13:19:38 -0400 Message-ID: From: FosterCM To: Green Building , "'Bruce Sullivan'" Cc: "'proact@mindspring.com'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 13:19:33 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.12.736 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD84BB.1B090A50" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3375 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact your mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version that supports MIME. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD84BB.1B090A50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Although I work in an industrial setting, I attended a technical presentation this morning on a product that appears to have residential applications as well. I felt a brief post to the list would be appropriate. I am new to the list so if this product has been mentioned previously, sorry. >From the sales literature: "LEADX is a chemical additive used in any in-situ treatment of contaminated lead material. LEADX has an unlimited shelf life, contains no lime or cement. LEADX does not mask, dilute or encapsulate. Instead, it chemically bonds to any free lead that it contacts and forms a more stable molecule, a non-leachable form of lead, called hydroxypyromorphite. Hydroxypyromorphite is not soluble under normal circumstances." A local company is testing their liquid stripper product. They also make a dry sweep product and blast materials. The company rep, Nancy Cheshire, is looking for additional opportunities to prove the product in soil remediation. Proactive Environmental Research & Development, Inc. www.perdi.com Nancy Cheshire 770-425-9733 proact@mindspring.com ---------- From: Bruce Sullivan[SMTP:sullivan@oak.oikos.com] Sent: Thursday, May 07, 1998 10:42 AM To: Green Building Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses C. Flanders You can find a complete description in the Iris Catalog: http://oikos.com/catalog/books/envirosourcebook.html ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD84BB.1B090A50-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 21 16:33:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA03014 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 16:33:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03774; Thu, 21 May 1998 16:21:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 May 1998 16:17:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA03254 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 16:17:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03244; Thu, 21 May 1998 16:17:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4HTVa02231; Thu, 21 May 1998 16:24:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf Message-ID: <3612b06a.35648d98@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 16:24:55 EDT To: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: DCH Press Release Re: converting hydrogen gas into electricity Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3376 The following is a press release I thought might be of interest to members of the list. For more information, consult the DCH Technology website at: www.dch-technology.com. Regards, Cathy Flanders Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://members.tripod.com/~rkfabf/index.html IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq DCH To Commercialize Modular PEM Fuel Cell Developed By Los Alamos National Laboratory SHERMAN OAKS, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--May 21, 1998--DCH Technology, Inc. (DCH)(OTC:DCHT) is signing a Cooperative Research And Development Agreement (CRADA) with Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) to commercialize a patented Circular Fuel Cell Stack. This demonstrable fuel cell uses a proton exchange membrane (PEM) to convert hydrogen gas into electricity. Fuel cells are used to provide a versatile and reliable souce of electricity. DCH's fuel cell system is modular, scaleable and can deliver a peak power of 50 to 500 watts of renewable, clean power by utilizing circular fuel cell stacks. DCH will manufacture and distribute the modular fuel cell system to the following industries: aerospace, nuclear, communications, medical, personal transportation and residential power. Glenn Rambach, an internationally recognized fuel cell and energy system specialist, states "it is highly significant to have a leading hydrogen technology company like DCH enter the fuel cell arena, which could have a combined market size of $3 billion within the next five years." Community Power Corporaton has already committed to purchase, deploy and logistically support the fuel cell system in emerging markets in Asia and Latin America DCH's proven sensing and feedback control technologies are incorporated into each stack to optimize performance and reliability., Dr. Mark Daugherty, DCH Chief Scientist, formally advanced systems project engineer at LANL, stated, "compared to conventional fuel cells. DCH's modular fuel cell system provides lower cost, lower weight and less maintenance. In the near future, DCH fuel cell technology will be deployed on a worldwide basis." The industrial teammates working with DCH will be announced shortly. LANL, an expert in fuel cell development and applied chemistry, will be performing optimization analysis, modeling and testing in support of DCH's commercialization. DCH will be demonstrating the production configuration of this Modular Fuel Cell System at the internationally attended National Hydrogen Association (NHA) Tenth Annual Meeting in Alexandria, VA. DCH Technology is a technology development and manufacturing firm specializing in patented and proprietary gas sensor and safety products that are sold to industrial and government customers worldwide. DCH's core technologies include the Robust Hydrogen Sensor, the Thick Film Hydrogen Sensor, the Fiber Optic Sensor and the Universal Gas Sensor. The current market for gas sensors is $1 billion and is rapidly growing. DCH technologies are currently being used by NASA, Westinghouse, Northrop Grumman, and other large multi-national companies. For more information, consult the DCH Technology website at www.dch-technology.com. Safe Harbor Statement under the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1955: Statements in this news release looking forward in time involve risks and uncertainties, and actual results may be materially different. Factors that could cause actual results to differ include activity levels in the securities markets and other risk factors such as customer order rates, cancellations, late delivery of customer components, production delays, dependence upon certain customers, dependencies upon key executives, viability of quarterly results, single operating facility, competition, product liability risk, control by management, foreign currency fluctuation, and other risks detailed in the company's applicable SEC filings. CONTACT: Global Consulting Group John Thompson, 310/859-9725 ("information for one-time member use under the Federal Library Act.") ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 21 18:11:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA06766 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 18:11:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07453; Thu, 21 May 1998 17:59:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 May 1998 17:55:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA07123 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 17:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (rcpublic1.nahbrc.org [207.49.88.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07119 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 17:55:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM by rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id oa044838 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 17:59:20 -0400 From: "Peter Yost" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 18:02:36 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Rating Systems X-Info: NT Mail Server Message-Id: <00592087501608@NAHBRC.ORG> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3377 Buzz - The NAHB Research Center is working with EPA to develop a guide or model for home builder association (hba) green building programs. The idea is to evaluate existing green builder programs (five by local HBAs and several others by municipalities/utilities) and make recommendations based on the review. Key is to balance these three elements: comprehensiveness, credibility, relevance/practicality. The model or guide is under development and will be tested with the Atlanta HBA over the next year as they start their program. Little of the model can be released without EPA review so the model will not be officially released until January of 1999. Until then, please check out builder programs and green building activities at our web site: www.nahbrc.org Peter Yost pyost@nahbrc.org 301-249-4000 x542 http://www.nahbrc.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 21 20:42:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA13314 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 20:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA13164; Thu, 21 May 1998 20:31:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 May 1998 20:27:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12660 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 20:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12652 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 20:26:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA12141; Thu, 21 May 1998 17:32:42 -0700 Message-ID: <3564C75E.9AA290CE@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:31:26 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julie Rehmeyer CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: greywater treatment and dry wells? References: <199805211459.KAA18285@severi.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3378 Hi Julie, A hole in the ground that runs below the root zone (soil level) is a well, and greywater is still contaminated water. Running water through the ground can do much to purify it but I would still say that you have to ensure some level of treatment before dumping it. I don't know what else to say. The book you mentioned is probably not one that I would have much sympathy with. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Julie Rehmeyer wrote: > John -- > > By "dry well" I didn't mean a well that had previously been tapping an > aquifier but now has run dry. What I had in mind was simply a big > hole in the ground, either lined with cement blocks with spacing > between the blocks in a single course or loosely filled with rocks, > which is then covered. The idea is to have a place below grade for > the greywater to percolate into the soil. > > Here's a reference: "Wells and Septic Systems" by Max and > Charlotte Alth, revised by S. Blackwell Duncan, 2nd ed., 1992 McGraw > Hill > > They comment that unlike surface greywater disposal, dry wells are > legal "nearly everywhere". > > Julie ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 21 20:47:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA13473 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 20:47:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA13494; Thu, 21 May 1998 20:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 May 1998 20:32:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA13203 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 20:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu (root@xipe-totec.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA13195 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 20:31:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from angle.cacr.caltech.edu (angle.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.72]) by mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA19540 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 17:38:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805220038.RAA19540@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> X-Sender: mac@delilah X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 17:40:42 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: mac@cacr.caltech.edu (b. lamprecht) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: kitchen cabinets Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3379 John Salmen mentions doing coloured conrete countertops. I have done these for bathrooms but I am now asked to do a kitchen, which of course has much more rigourous requirements for sealants because of food consumption. Do any of you have any recommendations for a safe sealant to use, i.e., safe environmentally and safe for people? barbara lamprecht Lamprecht Architextural Services . >We have been manufacturing cabinetry and millwork for our projects for some >time and at one time considered marketing cabinetry for a larger distribution, >but felt that the demand would be limited. I was surprised to see so few >references offered for alternative cabinetry. The cabinets we developed are >solid wood (strip laminated softwood or hardwood) with woodlot derived facings >(westcoast maple and alder have been our basic materials). Counters have been >coloured concrete or regional marble and granite and we have done designs with >sinks made of the same materials. > >I would be interested in hearing if there might be any wider interest in >component cabinetry that meet some qualified standards. Costs do not seem that >much higher, perhaps 30% over conventional but then the quality and longevity >is appreciably higher (if I say so myself) > >John Salmen >TERRAIN E.D.S. > >Doug Patterson wrote: > >> I was sent this message from this person looking for kitchen cabinets. > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 21 23:57:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA21246 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 23:57:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA19277; Thu, 21 May 1998 23:46:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 May 1998 23:41:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA19045 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 May 1998 23:41:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x18.boston.juno.com (x18.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.29]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19041 for ; Thu, 21 May 1998 23:41:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from strawboss94@juno.com) by x18.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id X}U00585; Thu, 21 May 1998 23:49:03 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 22:49:32 -0500 Subject: GBlist: Re: dry wells? Message-ID: <19980521.224932.10966.0.strawboss94@juno.com> References: <199805211459.KAA18285@severi.mit.edu> <3564C75E.9AA290CE@cow-net.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-10,15 From: strawboss94@juno.com (wary o ths) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3380 snip . What I had in mind was simply a big >> hole in the ground, either lined with cement blocks with spacing >> between the blocks in a single course or loosely filled with rocks, >> which is then covered. The idea is to have a place below grade for >> the greywater to percolate into the soil. >>x >> They comment that unlike surface greywater disposal, dry wells are >> legal "nearly everywhere". x In my state they are NOT legal and the septic tank lines are now layed much closer to the surface in a effort to enhance surface evaporation and minimize percolation into the ground water. One should check with local requirements before espousing principles of greywater disposal advocated in printed matter more than a year or two old. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 22 02:27:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA25733 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 02:27:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA22866; Fri, 22 May 1998 02:08:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 May 1998 02:03:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA22442 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 02:03:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA22438 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 02:03:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA18671; Thu, 21 May 1998 23:09:32 -0700 Message-ID: <35651653.3CAF5C0B@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 21 May 1998 23:08:19 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "b. lamprecht" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: kitchen cabinets References: <199805220038.RAA19540@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3381 We've used a variety of food safe oils - I think it is a tung oil that we have used most and most frequently (I'll have to check). Forms a very hard durable film (basically a varnish) have to be careful of the source (ensure that it is marketed as food safe). Generally I'm not that fond of a sealant and I'm not sure what the basis of concern is. If concrete has a high cement content and is extremely well worked the resultant surface is considerably less porous than marble. Most surfaces can retain a remarkable amount of bacteria (laminates included) - they just have that clean look and I think in this case a sealant does not really contribute to 'cleanliness'. It can resist stains to some degree and provide a sheen. Sodium silicate (waterglass) can be used to harden the surface and provide an extra degree of actual waterproofness, have to check with John Straube on that but I find a higher cement ratio and a longer finishing period can have a similar result (this is one of the reasons I prefer top finishing as apposed to a reverse cast, another reason is you get much less light glare off the surface) John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. b. lamprecht wrote: > John Salmen mentions doing coloured conrete countertops. I have done these > for bathrooms but I am now asked to do a kitchen, which of course has much > more rigourous requirements for sealants because of food consumption. Do any > of you have any recommendations for a safe sealant to use, i.e., safe > environmentally and safe for people? > > barbara lamprecht > Lamprecht Architextural Services > > . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 22 03:00:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA26642 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 03:00:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA23895; Fri, 22 May 1998 02:49:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 May 1998 02:45:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA23619 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 02:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA23615 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 02:45:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (gl-ppp09.hevanet.com [204.119.60.29]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA01793; Thu, 21 May 1998 23:53:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35668105.B4BE14BF@hevanet.com> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 00:55:50 -0700 From: "Vana O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: kitchen cabinets References: <199805220038.RAA19540@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> <35651653.3CAF5C0B@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3382 Tung oil may promote Epstein-Barr disease. And people who work with it extensively tend to have elevated rates of cancer. mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 22 08:07:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA03345 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 08:07:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA29170; Fri, 22 May 1998 07:55:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 May 1998 07:51:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA28857 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 07:51:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA28853 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 07:50:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek (sa4-p23.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.151]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id HAA16113 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 07:58:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <356566EC.7153@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 07:52:12 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: kitchen cabinets References: <199805220038.RAA19540@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> <35651653.3CAF5C0B@cow-net.com> <35668105.B4BE14BF@hevanet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3383 Vana O'Brien wrote: > > Tung oil may promote Epstein-Barr disease. And people who work with it > extensively tend to have elevated rates of cancer. > > mike > I assume John is mistaken about the Tung Oil, very bad choice. Try impregnating the surface with food grade wax, bees wax maybe. Wax will give you a nice low luster surface that is easily renewable. Tests done in fine woodworking several years ago compared the sealing qualities of various films, for water resistance wax rated high, but not as well for acids and alcohol. Behlens salad bowl finish might be a good choice also. Nothing is going to last very long when applied on counters that are constantly being wetted and wiped down and anything is likely to change the color or shade of the surface, (so test first). The high cream finish John was describing, with a renewable wax sealer, might be your best compromise. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 22 10:59:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10534 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:59:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06464; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 May 1998 10:42:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06135 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from math.mit.edu (MATH.MIT.EDU [18.87.0.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06131 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:42:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from severi.mit.edu (SEVERI.MIT.EDU [18.87.0.68]) by math.mit.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08334; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:50:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from julie@localhost) by severi.mit.edu (8.8.7/8.6.9) id KAA04128; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:50:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:50:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805221450.KAA04128@severi.mit.edu> From: Julie Rehmeyer To: terrain@cow-net.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <3564C75E.9AA290CE@cow-net.com> (message from John Salmen on Thu, 21 May 1998 17:31:26 -0700) Subject: Re: GBlist: greywater treatment and dry wells? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3384 John -- First of all, let me make it clear that I am not convinced that a dry well is a good idea -- that is the very reason I posted my question. So I am very interested in opinions or information that might indicate that it is not a good idea. Unless I am misunderstanding your concern, I do not believe that a dry well would go below soil level. Typically, a dry well is sized to be about 3.5 - 5 feet in each dimension. On my building site, at least, the soil level goes to at least 8 feet, because we dug a hole that deep to check for ground water. My understanding is that it can be a good idea to separate greywater treatment from blackwater treatment from the point of view of ensuring adequate treatment. The greases from the kitchen and the soaps from laundry and bathing waters can combine to make the grease fall from the top of the septic tank and thus get into the leach field and clog it; eliminating the laundry and bathing waters from the septic tank and leach field entirely eliminates that concern. I do not know what kind of treatment is necessary for greywater. I know that surface use of greywater for irrigation is concerned safe by many people, and has recently been legalized in Calfiornia in wake of the recent droughts. I would guess that dry well treatment of greywater is actually less likely to cause pollution problems than surface use; am I correct in that? There are several reasons for my interest in the idea of a dry well. One is that my understanding is that it may increase the effectiveness and lifespan of the septic system. Another is that it may be less expensive, allowing for a smaller leach field and septic tank. A third is that it would allow for less disruption to the site by minimizing the leach field size; we have a limited amount of more-or-less flat land, and having a smaller leach field would mean more space for plantings and more flat space that could simply be left alone. If you could give me more specific reasons for your opinion that a dry well would be insufficient treatment, I would be very interested. In particular, I would be interested in knowing your opinion of surface use of greywater, and if that seems acceptable, why a dry well does not. Does a traditional septic system seem to you to be the only acceptable way of treating greywater? Thanks for your thoughts, Julie I live in Northern New Mexico, where water availability is a big concern ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 22 11:05:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10728 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:05:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06899; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:53:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 May 1998 10:49:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06564 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:49:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rtkl.com (firewall-user@fire-out.rtkl.com [208.197.182.75]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06560 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by rtkl.com; id MAA14387; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eddie.rtkl.com(10.110.2.2) by fire-out.rtkl.com via smap (3.2) id xma014382; Fri, 22 May 98 12:09:43 -0400 Received: by eddie.RTKL.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD8568.3B116290@eddie.RTKL.com>; Fri, 22 May 1998 09:58:55 -0500 Message-ID: From: Jay Yowell To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: geothermal web site Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:58:54 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3385 GeoPro, Inc. is pleased to announce that it has established a website with a variety of geothermal heat pump web locations. http:/members.aol.com/allanps/index.html Please visit and look it over. Please contact Allan Skouby with questions and comments. Thank you in advance for your support. jay y. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 22 12:01:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA12670 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:01:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10411; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:50:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 May 1998 11:46:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09901 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:45:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09897 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 11:45:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA24799; Fri, 22 May 1998 08:51:39 -0700 Message-ID: <35659EC3.F0126FE0@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 08:50:27 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: kitchen cabinets References: <199805220038.RAA19540@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> <35651653.3CAF5C0B@cow-net.com> <35668105.B4BE14BF@hevanet.com> <356566EC.7153@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3386 Hi Chuck >From Mike's comments I wish it were true. It is tung oil we are using. A version marketed by Lee Valley as 'food safe'. At the time when I was looking for safe drying oils that form a durable waterproof finish tung oil seemed the best choice. I dug up my notes and have current and historical references to a variety of food related applications i.e. coatings on food containers, finish on child toys etc. The oil is used as a feed supplement for livestock and has some traditional herbal uses. So I thought I was covered and looked no further. . . Thing I love about this list is that it always make you question things a few times round. I liked the notion of a wax sealer but its hard to maintain the look of that finish on something like a kitchen or vanity counter. It always seems to get to the point of no finish is the best finish. More information on tung oil usage please. Is toxicity related to use prior to cure. (hardness of tung oil finish is related to quick oxidation and is (was) considered non-toxic after curing. Best John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Vana O'Brien wrote: > > > > Tung oil may promote Epstein-Barr disease. And people who work with it > > extensively tend to have elevated rates of cancer. > > > > mike > > > > I assume John is mistaken about the Tung Oil, very bad choice. Try > impregnating the surface with food grade wax, bees wax maybe. Wax will > give you a nice low luster surface that is easily renewable. Tests done > in fine woodworking several years ago compared the sealing qualities of > various films, for water resistance wax rated high, but not as well for > acids and alcohol. Behlens salad bowl finish might be a good choice > also. > > Nothing is going to last very long when applied on counters that are > constantly being wetted and wiped down and anything is likely to change > the color or shade of the surface, (so test first). The high cream > finish John was describing, with a renewable wax sealer, might be your > best compromise. > > Chuck Hinckley > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 22 12:45:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14266 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:45:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12915; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 May 1998 12:29:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12551 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:29:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12547 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek (sA1-a19.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.148]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA07286; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:37:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3565A86B.5D1E@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 12:31:39 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: kitchen cabinets References: <199805220038.RAA19540@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> <35651653.3CAF5C0B@cow-net.com> <35668105.B4BE14BF@hevanet.com> <356566EC.7153@dreamscape.com> <35659EC3.F0126FE0@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3387 John Salmen wrote: > I liked the notion of a wax sealer but its hard to maintain the look of that > finish on something like a kitchen or vanity counter. It always seems to get > to the point of no finish is the best finish. Wax will only be useful as a sealer, not a hardened coating per say, just something to help keep water and stains out. It is easily renewable, so consciencious upkeep is fairly easy. The "finish" surface is provided by your cement cream. > > More information on tung oil usage please. Is toxicity related to use prior > to cure. (hardness of tung oil finish is related to quick oxidation and is > (was) considered non-toxic after curing. The source of my info is buried deep in the recesses of my "filing" system or from the exwife of a client that I built a "non-toxic" kitchen for years ago; Livos finishes(which sucked), solid wood, no U-F glue, marble tops, etc. The wife left before the project was completed (not my fault) and I doubt I can find her now. The same Fine Woodworking article I mentioned may have also discussed toxicity, but I'm not sure. I don't believe I still have a copy but you might try researching their archives. We use wax on most of our furniture and cabinets with great results. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 22 12:47:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14316 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:47:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13194; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 May 1998 12:31:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12746 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:31:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu (root@xipe-totec.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12742 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from angle.cacr.caltech.edu (angle.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.72]) by mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA23473 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 09:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805221638.JAA23473@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> X-Sender: mac@delilah X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 09:40:40 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: mac@cacr.caltech.edu (b. lamprecht) Subject: GBlist: re: kitchen cabinets Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3388 Thank you all for responding so quickly. Joe Robison (sp?) at Tried and True, as Doug Patterson suggested, was extremely helpful in discussing his finishes, applications and environmental considerations; they are indeed food safe, or rather, the finishes comply with -- I believe -- Federal law 175300 referrring to finishes and food. Joe said the `Varnish Oil' would be appropriate for concrete, by the way, and best applied by heating it up first since its room temperature consistency is like honey, the company also has a danish oil (like Watco) without VOCs. barbara lamprecht ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 22 13:07:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14990 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 13:07:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15027; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:55:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 May 1998 12:49:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14375 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:49:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mkf.MKF.ORNL.GOV (mkf.ornl.gov [134.167.90.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14363 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mkfor3.mkf.ornl.gov by mkf.MKF.ORNL.GOV (NTMail 3.00.06) id aa370140 Fri, 22 May 98 16:55:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mkfor3.MKF.ORNL.GOV with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.12.736) id <01BD857F.D0D6C9C0@mkfor3.MKF.ORNL.GOV>; Fri, 22 May 1998 12:47:44 -0400 Message-ID: From: FosterCM To: "'Julie Rehmeyer'" Cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: greywater treatment and dry wells? Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 12:47:38 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.12.736 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD857F.D0D85060" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3389 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact your mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version that supports MIME. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD857F.D0D85060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I used to live in the San Francisco Bay area and I had an amateur interest in the use of grey water for irrigation. My understanding is that the grey water does get some treatment before it is distributed for surface use. It did smell pretty ripe however and it was definitely grey. There were plans in my area to make a whole new distribution system so that all of the houses would have a grey water tap for irrigation. Other than the pretreatment issue, I see your point that there is not much difference in a shallow dry well and surface application. However, regulations often don't make sense to me and there is a definite regulatory difference in the two applications. Surface applications would have to meet the EPA Land Disposal Restrictions however, so there is some testing of grey water for contamination. I believe the definition of "below soil level" means just breaking ground, not below the organic layer. ---------- From: Julie Rehmeyer[SMTP:julie@math.mit.edu] Sent: Friday, May 22, 1998 10:50 AM To: terrain@cow-net.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: greywater treatment and dry wells? John -- First of all, let me make it clear that I am not convinced that a dry well is a good idea -- that is the very reason I posted my question. So I am very interested in opinions or information that might indicate that it is not a good idea. Unless I am misunderstanding your concern, I do not believe that a dry well would go below soil level. Typically, a dry well is sized to be about 3.5 - 5 feet in each dimension. On my building site, at least, the soil level goes to at least 8 feet, because we dug a hole that deep to check for ground water. My understanding is that it can be a good idea to separate greywater treatment from blackwater treatment from the point of view of ensuring adequate treatment. The greases from the kitchen and the soaps from laundry and bathing waters can combine to make the grease fall from the top of the septic tank and thus get into the leach field and clog it; eliminating the laundry and bathing waters from the septic tank and leach field entirely eliminates that concern. I do not know what kind of treatment is necessary for greywater. I know that surface use of greywater for irrigation is concerned safe by many people, and has recently been legalized in Calfiornia in wake of the recent droughts. I would guess that dry well treatment of greywater is actually less likely to cause pollution problems than surface use; am I correct in that? There are several reasons for my interest in the idea of a dry well. One is that my understanding is that it may increase the effectiveness and lifespan of the septic system. Another is that it may be less expensive, allowing for a smaller leach field and septic tank. A third is that it would allow for less disruption to the site by minimizing the leach field size; we have a limited amount of more-or-less flat land, and having a smaller leach field would mean more space for plantings and more flat space that could simply be left alone. If you could give me more specific reasons for your opinion that a dry well would be insufficient treatment, I would be very interested. In particular, I would be interested in knowing your opinion of surface use of greywater, and if that seems acceptable, why a dry well does not. Does a traditional septic system seem to you to be the only acceptable way of treating greywater? Thanks for your thoughts, Julie I live in Northern New Mexico, where water availability is a big concern ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD857F.D0D85060-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 22 13:37:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16638 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 13:37:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16785; Fri, 22 May 1998 13:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 May 1998 13:21:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA16485 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 13:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16481 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 13:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust87.tnt8.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.23.87]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA06775 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3565B619.7AD8@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:30:02 -0700 From: David Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Tung Oil (was Kit Cab's) References: <199805220038.RAA19540@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> <35651653.3CAF5C0B@cow-net.com> <35668105.B4BE14BF@hevanet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3390 Vana O'Brien wrote: > > Tung oil may promote Epstein-Barr disease. And people who work with it > extensively tend to have elevated rates of cancer. > ...not to mention prolonged head aches. Tung oil, while an excellent polymerizer, is a bane to anyone with the slightest chemical sensitivities. Nasty stuff in my opinion. Walnut oil is known for its moderate polymerizing qualities, and is quite innocuous. Seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 22 14:04:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA17393 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 14:04:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17992; Fri, 22 May 1998 13:52:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 May 1998 13:48:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17608 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 13:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucy.az.com (lucy.az.com [204.201.18.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17600 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 13:48:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwebb (seawesta-129.az.com [204.201.18.129]) by lucy.az.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA01678; Fri, 22 May 1998 10:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980522105725.007ac660@lucy.az.com> X-Sender: cwebb@lucy.az.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 10:57:25 -0700 To: FosterCM From: Chris Webb Subject: RE: GBlist: greywater treatment and dry wells? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3391 The California Greywater Guidelines (and now Washington's) allow two methods of greywater disposal. One is subsurface drip irrigation to non-food plants and the other is called a 'mini-leachfield'. Both of these system intend to keep the water below grade and therefore reduce human contact with the water and the odor. I have done one system that feeds a bed of wetland type plants, and all the water is kept below the ground surface and the system is doing great, meeting the strictest State requirements and all for minimal cost. The only other hurdle is usually the plumbing code.. allowing the seperation in the house, which was in thw 1994 UPC. I have not heard of people having good luck spraying greywater on the surface, except in industrial land application instances, but not for residential. It seems much simpler to just let it flow to a lanscaping strip, subsurface and let the plants drink it up and dispose by evapotranspiration. Putting untreated greywater directly into the groundwater via a dry well does not seem like a good idea, it is usually best to just put it at the root level of plants and let them drink it up. At 12:47 PM 5/22/98 -0400, you wrote: >I used to live in the San Francisco Bay area and I had an amateur interest >in the use of grey water for irrigation. My understanding is that the grey >water does get some treatment before it is distributed for surface use. It >did smell pretty ripe however and it was definitely grey. There were plans >in my area to make a whole new distribution system so that all of the houses >would have a grey water tap for irrigation. > >Other than the pretreatment issue, I see your point that there is not much >difference in a shallow dry well and surface application. However, >regulations often don't make sense to me and there is a definite regulatory >difference in the two applications. Surface applications would have to meet >the EPA Land Disposal Restrictions however, so there is some testing of grey >water for contamination. > >I believe the definition of "below soil level" means just breaking ground, >not below the organic layer. > > > >---------- >From: Julie Rehmeyer[SMTP:julie@math.mit.edu] >Sent: Friday, May 22, 1998 10:50 AM >To: terrain@cow-net.com >Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org >Subject: Re: GBlist: greywater treatment and dry wells? > >John -- > >First of all, let me make it clear that I am not convinced that a dry >well is a good idea -- that is the very reason I posted my question. >So I am very interested in opinions or information that might indicate >that it is not a good idea. > >Unless I am misunderstanding your concern, I do not believe that a dry >well would go below soil level. Typically, a dry well is sized to be >about 3.5 - 5 feet in each dimension. On my building site, at least, >the soil level goes to at least 8 feet, because we dug a hole that >deep to check for ground water. > >My understanding is that it can be a good idea to separate greywater >treatment from blackwater treatment from the point of view of ensuring >adequate treatment. The greases from the kitchen and the soaps from >laundry and bathing waters can combine to make the grease fall from >the top of the septic tank and thus get into the leach field and clog >it; eliminating the laundry and bathing waters from the septic tank >and leach field entirely eliminates that concern. > >I do not know what kind of treatment is necessary for greywater. I >know that surface use of greywater for irrigation is concerned safe by >many people, and has recently been legalized in Calfiornia in wake of >the recent droughts. I would guess that dry well treatment of >greywater is actually less likely to cause pollution problems than >surface use; am I correct in that? > >There are several reasons for my interest in the idea of a dry well. >One is that my understanding is that it may increase the effectiveness >and lifespan of the septic system. Another is that it may be less >expensive, allowing for a smaller leach field and septic tank. A >third is that it would allow for less disruption to the site by >minimizing the leach field size; we have a limited amount of >more-or-less flat land, and having a smaller leach field would mean >more space for plantings and more flat space that could simply be left >alone. > >If you could give me more specific reasons for your opinion that a dry >well would be insufficient treatment, I would be very interested. In >particular, I would be interested in knowing your opinion of surface >use of greywater, and if that seems acceptable, why a dry well does >not. Does a traditional septic system seem to you to be the only >acceptable way of treating greywater? > >Thanks for your thoughts, > >Julie > >I >live in Northern New Mexico, where water availability is a big concern >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > --------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher J. Webb, EIT "To Provide simple economic Project Engineer solutions to complex environmental 2020 ENGINEERING issues ... to meet future needs" 1911 'C' Street Bellingham, WA 98225 USA (360)671-2020 fax:(360)671-0322 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 22 14:22:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18271 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 14:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18848; Fri, 22 May 1998 14:10:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 May 1998 14:06:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA18484 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 14:05:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (rcpublic1.nahbrc.org [207.49.88.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18480 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 14:05:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM by rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id wa044924 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 14:10:13 -0400 From: "Peter Yost" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:13:29 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: IAQ - PAHs X-Info: NT Mail Server Message-Id: <21101353101971@NAHBRC.ORG> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3392 Polycyclic Aromatic Hydorcarbons (PAHs) in some older homes were used in bitumen-based glues. Has anyone heard of PAHs before in this application and can shed some light on problems/remedies/research? I believe this was more of a European than American issue, but could be wrong. Thanks. Peter Yost pyost@nahbrc.org 301-249-4000 x542 http://www.nahbrc.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 22 15:13:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19901 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:13:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22025; Fri, 22 May 1998 14:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 May 1998 14:54:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA21723 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 14:54:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21718 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 14:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA19553 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 14:01:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from haw-ak1-11.ix.netcom.com(206.214.127.43) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma019526; Fri May 22 14:01:16 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980522150706.007c5210@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:07:06 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Bion Howard Subject: GBlist: caution - potential for moisture problems In-Reply-To: <199805210656.CAB15287@prodmail1.individual.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3393 Caution -- Alligators! 22 May 1998 The installation of a radiant "foil layer" behind siding should be carefully evaluated -- in case there is also an interior vapor retarder. You could create what moisture experts call "vapor damming" - or other mass transfer scenarios in which moisture would accumulate seasonally in walls. Some of the best advice on avoiding moisture problems in walls is available from the EEBA Builder Guide (Lstibruek, Pettit, et.al) and from an ASTM Special Tech. Pub. on Moisture in Building Assemblies (sorry on road right now; not the exact title.) Also, Bill Lotz in Maine is very familiar with these issues having found many buildings damaged by such installations, gone wrong. ------------------- >Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 07:01:31 -0700 >From: John Salmen >Subject: Re: GBlist: fire retardants > >A foil radiant barrier behind the siding might be more effective and double for moisture as well as radiant properties > >John Salmen >TERRAIN E.D.S. > | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 22 15:54:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA21188 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:54:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23832; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:43:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 May 1998 15:38:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA23315 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23306 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:38:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.96] (usr0a10.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.74]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13075; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:46:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199805221450.KAA04128@severi.mit.edu> References: <3564C75E.9AA290CE@cow-net.com> (message from John Salmen on Thu, 21 May 1998 17:31:26 -0700) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Julie Rehmeyer , terrain@cow-net.com From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: greywater treatment and dry wells? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3394 At 10:50 AM -0400 5/22/98, Julie Rehmeyer wrote: >I do not know what kind of treatment is necessary for greywater. I >know that surface use of greywater for irrigation is concerned safe by >many people, and has recently been legalized in Calfiornia in wake of >the recent droughts. I would guess that dry well treatment of >greywater is actually less likely to cause pollution problems than >surface use; am I correct in that? I concur with John Salmen's cautions regarding graywater discharge. As for your guess that drywell treatment of graywater is less likely to cause pollution than surface use, I believe that your assumption is not always correct. Microorganisms in the upper few inches of topsoil are the most biologically active and, thus, most effective at breaking down organic matter. The problem with surface discharge of graywater and the reason that even the liberal California graywater code prohibits it, is the potential for pathogen contact (there is also a greater risk that it can get into surface waters where it can result in oxygen depletion). Discharging the graywater below ground protects us from potential pathogens, but it also sacrifices some of the decomposition effectiveness. We took a pretty careful look at graywater in Environmental Building News in Volume 4, Number 2 (March-April 1995). You might want to take a look at this. Back issues are still generally available, and all our back issues through the end of 1997 are available on a brand new, fully searchable CD-ROM--which also now includes a product directory. (Apologies for the blatent commercialism, but we need to make a living too....) Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News 800/861-0954 http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 22 15:55:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA21196 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23830; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:43:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 May 1998 15:38:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA23316 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:38:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23305 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:38:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.96] (usr0a10.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.74]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13097; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:46:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 15:46:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35659EC3.F0126FE0@cow-net.com> References: <199805220038.RAA19540@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> <35651653.3CAF5C0B@cow-net.com> <35668105.B4BE14BF@hevanet.com> <356566EC.7153@dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: John Salmen , ashcreek@dreamscape.com From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: kitchen cabinets Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3395 At 8:50 AM -0700 5/22/98, John Salmen wrote: >>From Mike's comments I wish it were true. It is tung oil we are using. A >version marketed by Lee Valley as 'food safe'. At the time when I was >looking for safe drying oils that form a durable waterproof finish tung oil >seemed the best choice. I dug up my notes and have current and historical >references to a variety of food related applications i.e. coatings on food >containers, finish on child toys etc. The oil is used as a feed supplement >for livestock and has some traditional herbal uses. So I thought I was >covered and looked no further. . . >Thing I love about this list is that it always make you question things a >few times round. >I liked the notion of a wax sealer but its hard to maintain the look of that >finish on something like a kitchen or vanity counter. It always seems to get >to the point of no finish is the best finish. > >More information on tung oil usage please. Is toxicity related to use prior >to cure. (hardness of tung oil finish is related to quick oxidation and is >(was) considered non-toxic after curing. I too was under the impression that tung oil was generally toxic. You might want to check out Tried & True, an old-fashioned "boiled linseed oil" that is all natural and totally food-safe. They have several different formulations, one with just heat-polymerized linseed oil, one with added beeswax, and another with added natural varnish resin (from tree sap). It's made by a little family-owned company in upstate New York. I've used it with great success--even in a relatively high-moisture application (splash boards around bathroom sink). Haven't yet tried the new varnish resin & linseed oil product called English Polish, but I have some and plan to try it and review it in EBN. True, old-fashioned-style, "boiled" linseed oils do not contain heavy metals and other chemicals that are added to modern "boiled" linseed oils as drying agents. Joe Robeson of Tried & True can be reached at 607/387-9280. I believe his products are carried by Garrett Wade and Woodcraft Supply also. -Alex Wilson Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 22 16:02:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA21473 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 16:02:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24273; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:51:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 May 1998 15:47:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA23985 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23981 for ; Fri, 22 May 1998 15:47:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.70.45 (pm2-45.hoosier.net [206.106.70.45]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA23868; Fri, 22 May 1998 14:55:16 -0500 Message-ID: <356591A6.5EED@bloomington.in.us> Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 14:54:32 +0000 From: John Bower Reply-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "b. lamprecht" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: kitchen cabinets References: <199805220038.RAA19540@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3396 b. lamprecht wrote: > > John Salmen mentions doing coloured conrete countertops. I have done these > for bathrooms but I am now asked to do a kitchen, which of course has much > more rigourous requirements for sealants because of food consumption. Do any > of you have any recommendations for a safe sealant to use, i.e., safe > environmentally and safe for people? SODIUM SILICATE (AFM's product is called Penetrating Water Seal) -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 23 11:26:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22126 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 11:26:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15967; Sat, 23 May 1998 11:14:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 May 1998 11:09:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA15659 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 11:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15655 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 11:09:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA03241; Sat, 23 May 1998 08:14:17 -0700 Message-ID: <3566E781.3365066C@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 08:13:06 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Yost CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: IAQ - PAHs References: <21101353101971@NAHBRC.ORG> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3397 Hi Peter I'm curious about this. I was not familiar with PAH or PAC associated with glues. I would have imagined increased problems in Europe as a result of density of housing in cities and near major roadways and the more common use of diesel fuel and the penchant for continuous road renewal. I could imagine that bitumen may have been used more commonly in older uninsulated homes as a method of damproofing and crackproofing interior surfaces as in an asphalt primer that is used over masonry or as a base in caulkings. These coatings may also have been used in interior restoration work where a material may have been wanted that provided a flexible binder for a deteriorating wall surface. Another source of PAH in (very) older homes is soot deposits from burning light sources and heating (open coal burners as I remember being dependent upon in england for feeling slightly less cold). I'm curious too about the potential for PAC in homes that use wood stoves. We've had a few generation of use of slow burning stoves and as seals and chimneys deteriorate this could be a big source of contamination. We still use too many bitumen or asphalt based materials in housing, everything from damproofing foundations to roofing tiles. Its an uneconomical use of a resource considering how quickly it degrades with uv. I also still wonder about the wisdom of combustion appliances in tight houses regardless of how well isolated and installed. As for the problem- once absorbed the compounds are not easily flushed from the body and the bodies attempt to get rid of them often results in cancer. Particles are larger so sub-micron air filtration may remove them from exterior air. Removal of the source(s) of interior contamination. Peter Yost wrote: > Polycyclic Aromatic Hydorcarbons (PAHs) in some older homes were used > in bitumen-based glues. Has anyone heard of PAHs before in this > application and can shed some light on problems/remedies/research? I > believe this was more of a European than American issue, but could be > wrong. Thanks. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 23 11:46:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22901 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 11:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16738; Sat, 23 May 1998 11:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 May 1998 11:31:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16514 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 11:31:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16504 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 11:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA03477; Sat, 23 May 1998 08:37:06 -0700 Message-ID: <3566ECDB.5C6BBB56@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 08:35:55 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julie Rehmeyer CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: greywater treatment and dry wells? References: <199805221450.KAA04128@severi.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3398 Hi Julie I didn't think you were being adamant about dry wells and I admit I find the whole area of water use, treatment and disposal very confusing and contradictory. In other words I don't think we know enough and increasingly I feel cautious about it. Alex covered everything really well and I would just reiterate that most of the beneficial biological activity occurs within the shallow root zone (6" or so), especially any potential nitrate removal. One of the problems of greywater treatment using exterior beds is erractic flow. If an area is flooded with laundry water then the area of treatment is sabotaged, similarily a long period of reduced flow can alter conditions. In my mind an ideal system would first conserve water usage, secondly it would limit the amount of contamination of water used and then it would attempt to remove the contamination and reuse the water. I like the notion of a closed system as it would enhance our day to day efforts to maintain the water quality. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Julie Rehmeyer wrote: > John -- > > First of all, let me make it clear that I am not convinced that a dry > well is a good idea -- that is the very reason I posted my question. > So I am very interested in opinions or information that might indicate > that it is not a good idea. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 23 14:17:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA27625 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 14:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20821; Sat, 23 May 1998 14:06:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 May 1998 14:02:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA20519 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 14:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20515 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 14:02:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4MFRa02743; Sat, 23 May 1998 14:09:23 -0400 (EDT) From: IAQKibbey Message-ID: <9d8f3d5f.356710d4@aol.com> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 14:09:23 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: tja@wenet.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Straw Bale Music Studio? Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id OAA20516 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3399 I pass along this correspondence between myself and Todd Jersey as the beginning of a thread about experience with acoustic properties of straw bale construction. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant Berkeley, CA IAQKibbey@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 5/22/98 10:40:25 PM, Todd Jersey, Architect wrote to me: >David- I am designing a small straw bale structure for a music studio in > >Oakland. Has anyone tried straw bale in this type of acoustic environment > >that you know? I am intending it to be both and insulator of sound and an > >absorber of sound. Would you please put this question to network e-mail > >test? > >Thanks -Todd Jersey _____________________________________ Hi Todd, Let me just pass along this personal experience. I stood inside the vaulted straw bale structure built by Bob Theis, Kelly Lerner and Dan Smith a couple years ago. This was a nearly hemispherical affair with one open truncated end. Raw straw walls were exposed and the floor was the earth of the yard where it was built. A group of experienced talkers including Greg VanMechelen, Darrel DeBoer, Lynne Elizabeth, Kelly Lerner, Bob Theis and some others were in animated conversation just outside the perimeter of the building at the open end. When I stepped inside the open end of the structure, I could barely hear the voices. When I went way to the far side of interior I could not distinguish a single word being spoken and was aware mostly of the smell of straw and a deep, deep silence. When I clapped my hands, there was barely a sound. The quality of peace and protective isolation was very strong. When I stepped out of the open end, once again the sounds of the street and the continuing conversation came back into my consciousness. I would suspect that factors to consider would be: • Too much insulation can make the room sound dead with no reverberation or echo whatever. • Covering the surface of the strawbales on the interior and exterior with smooth material may reduce the absorptive quality of the the acoustic dynamics and increase the reverberation or reflectivity of sound, but should not reduce the acoustic insulation--isolating inside sound from being heard outside the structure. • No matter how well-insulated the walls are, if the ceiling or roof (or floor) do not maintain the integrity of the acoustic barrier, nearby neighbors might have cause for concern. David Kibbey ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 23 14:23:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA27782 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 14:23:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21228; Sat, 23 May 1998 14:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 May 1998 14:08:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA20931 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 14:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20925 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 14:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.20] (blf20.acadia.net [205.217.217.20]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA29957 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 14:16:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 14:16:33 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: kitchen cabinets Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3400 Check labels, or better yet, Material Safety Data Sheets before using tung or linseed oil products for food surfaces. Pure tung oil is probably safe- but some tung or linseed based products still contain lead as a dryer. Others use cobalt octate instead of lead. MSDS's will detail potential hazards. Manufacturers will supply them to you, at least in the U.S. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 23 15:12:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA28853 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 15:12:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22685; Sat, 23 May 1998 15:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 May 1998 14:57:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22284 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 14:57:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22272; Sat, 23 May 1998 14:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4HNOa02463; Sat, 23 May 1998 15:04:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf Message-ID: <208f480a.35671db8@aol.com> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 15:04:23 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org, abasonreel@abanet.org, CHECNET-FORUM@checnet.org, chemistry@uclink4.Berkeley.EDU, ee-building@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: IAQ - PAHs Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3401 John Salmen wrote - "Another source of PAH in (very) older homes is soot deposits from burning light sources and heating (open coal burners as I remember being dependent upon in england for feeling slightly less cold). I'm curious too about the potential for PAC in homes that use wood stoves. We've had a few generation of use of slow burning stoves and as seals and chimneys deteriorate this could be a big source of contamination. ... ...As for the problem- once absorbed the compounds are not easily flushed from the body and the bodies attempt to get rid of them often results in cancer. Particles are larger so sub-micron air filtration may remove them from exterior air. Removal of the source(s) of interior contamination." MY REPLY - Another emerging source of possible IAQ exposure to PAH is the burning of scented &/or aromatic candles, which by their very nature contain PAH & VOC. When some of these candles burn they produce exceedingly high amounts of soot or carbon black. This happens when fuel oil, gas or candle materials burns inefficiently (incomplete combustion). Fact is, by-products of combustion may have unburned fuel (which possibly contain PAH & VOCs) attached to the "soot" particle. These particles then become airborne pm & have the potential of redistribution via the ventilation. What is really the most pressing cause for concern (although there are many) is recent testing indicates the average initial particle size is .06 nanometers. The EPA and the American Lung Assn. have determined that particulate matter 2.5 microns and smaller are the most detrimental to our health. The smaller the particle, the more dangerous, because it can travel deeper into the lungs.On top of that, add the possibility that these particles may have PAH & VOCs attached. When particulate matter is breathed in, it can irritate and damage the lungs, causing breathing problems. People who have asthma or some type of lung or heart disease are directly impacted by PM. The elderly and children are also especially vulnerable to the effects of PM. Many studies have shown links between PM and health effects. Increases in PM have been linked to decreases in lung function, increases in breathing problems and hospitalization, and early death. It is currently speculated (by Chemists, IAQ Specialist and other scientists) that the cause of this is due to candle manufacturers adding more & more essential and synthetic fragranced oils (some of which are not even suitable for combustion) to candles in order to achieve a higher or more intense fragrance while burning. Most, if not all, of these oils contain PAH. 7 out of 10 homes burn candles on a regular basis, according to a study done by Smith & Kline, (the aromatic candle market accounts for approximately $700 million worth of the growth over the past two years according to industry sources). As a result, this issue is extremely far reaching & has the potential for affecting millions of homes. There has in fact been a dramatic escalation in reports of incidents involving soot deposition from scented and/or aromatic candles. Regards, Cathy Flanders Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://members.tripod.com/~rkfabf/index.html IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq PS. If you are interested in further information - The upcoming Summer 1998 issue of "YES! A Journal of Positive Futures" focuses on endocrine-disrupting chemicals. This issue--unlike much of the media coverage of this topic--underscores what industrial designers, community activists, scientists, landscapers, and homeowners are doing (and can do) to minimize or eliminate these substances, and other harmful chemicals, from consumer products, homes, landscapes, urban neighborhoods, and water supplies. Among the stories: * A Design Revolution, by eco-designer Stuart Cowan, features the work of industrial designer Michael Braungart of Germany, who works with industry to eliminate hazardous substances from all phases of production. The work of the Andropogon Landscapers, who restore native flora and design for reliance on rainfall and natural features of the landscape shows that chemical-intensive landscaping can be replaced by landscapes that are a reminder of native environments. There is also a detailed article on the most immediate steps individuals can take to reduce their exposure to hormone- disrupting chemicals in their homes, and a listing of resources readers can contact for help and additional information. If you would like a copy of the issue, YES! is making a limited number available to those with a serious interest in this topic. You can also order multiple copies or obtain reprint rights by contacting Tracy Rysavy, Associate Editor at: YES! A Journal of Positive Futures Positive Futures Network PO Box 10818 Bainbridge Island, WA 98110 or e-mail: editors@futurenet.org 206/842-0216 (tel) 206/842-5208 (fax) Articles from the issue will soon be on the web site: http://www.futurenet.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 23 15:36:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA29454 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 15:36:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23429; Sat, 23 May 1998 15:25:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 May 1998 15:21:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA23121 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 15:21:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf Message-ID: <68438868.35670036@aol.com> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 12:58:27 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3402 John Salmen wrote - < http://members.tripod.com/~rkfabf/index.html IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq PS. If you are interested in further information - The upcoming Summer 1998 issue of "YES! A Journal of Positive Futures" focuses on endocrine-disrupting chemicals. This issue--unlike much of the media coverage of this topic--underscores what industrial designers, community activists, scientists, landscapers, and homeowners are doing (and can do) to minimize or eliminate these substances, and other harmful chemicals, from consumer products, homes, landscapes, urban neighborhoods, and water supplies. Among the stories: * A Design Revolution, by eco-designer Stuart Cowan, features the work of industrial designer Michael Braungart of Germany, who works with industry to eliminate hazardous substances from all phases of production. The work of the Andropogon Landscapers, who restore native flora and design for reliance on rainfall and natural features of the landscape shows that chemical-intensive landscaping can be replaced by landscapes that are a reminder of native environments. There is also a detailed article on the most immediate steps individuals can take to reduce their exposure to hormone- disrupting chemicals in their homes, and a listing of resources readers can contact for help and additional information. If you would like a copy of the issue, YES! is making a limited number available to those with a serious interest in this topic. You can also order multiple copies or obtain reprint rights by contacting Tracy Rysavy, Associate Editor at: YES! A Journal of Positive Futures Positive Futures Network PO Box 10818 Bainbridge Island, WA 98110 or e-mail: editors@futurenet.org 206/842-0216 (tel) 206/842-5208 (fax) Articles from the issue will soon be on the web site: http://www.futurenet.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 23 16:28:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA01571 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25006; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:17:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 May 1998 16:13:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24752 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:13:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24746 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:13:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.116] (ub19.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.116]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA21293 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:21:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <10f241eb.355c23f2@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 16:30:46 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: Gas and manufactured homes Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3403 >Craig, > >You've hit on a serious problem, and one that has been similarly manifest to >me in other low-cost construction arenas. Action is necessary... but the >question is where to begin. [Please pardon the rant in advance.] > >My concern is borne from considering the housing of the financially poorest in >our society.... government subsidized housing, HUD sponsored housing, in some >cases "manufacturered" homes, and other low cost housing. It strikes me that >we spend a lot of time with building codes and energy codes for new homes, but >often these low-cost housing classes homes are left out of the solution mix. > >This is a sin. The families living in these houses are not deciding between >paying their (high) utility bill or going to the movies.... instead they are >deciding between their utility bill and buying milk! > >Shouldn't these houses be the MOST efficicient and long lasting we build? >Shouldn't our tax dollars subsidize the MOST efficient construction >techniques? Both energy efficient and durable? Have we agin forgot about the >difference between first cost and REAL costs? > >I know your initial comment was about electric and gas use in manufacturered >housing. If we follow the "end use" scenario on cost of fuels, then we should >immediately begin strengthening the building and energy codes that address the >construction of manufactured housing to dramatically improve their >performance. > >End of rant. > >Chris Mathis >President >MCSquared >5249 Columbia Road >Columbia, MD 21044 >301-596-1931 Chris and Craig, I also believe that lowest cost housing is a place it's important to focus. I like the work being done by Chris Benedict (RA) and Henry Gifford (mechanical consultant) in small multi-family gut rehab in Brooklyn. By cost shifting from the mechanicals to the envelope, they are making low cost, moisture, IAQ, comfort problem resistant (soon to be pest resistant, too) buildings. The heating system consists of a small, direct vent gas fired boiler (usually slant fin or Weil McClain) with a single pipe distribution system to baseboard fin tube (controlled by Honeywell stats on the radiator). Henry Gifford has designed this elegant, high quality, high efficiency heating system combining new equipment with old ideas. The ventilation system is a simple continuous/spot system based on Panasonic fans. The buildings typically have an owner occuppied unit and from one to four rental units in a four floor walk-up. I'd guess that Henry's heating system could be sized for manufactured houses (I just read that there's about 350,000 manufactured houses produced each year). The details are important. If you're interested in contacting them, let me know and I'll get you the numbers. Chris, nice to see you posting. Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 23 16:35:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA01754 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:35:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25659; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:24:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 May 1998 16:20:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA25142 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA25138 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.116] (ub19.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.116]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA22352 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:28:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 16:37:37 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: "Black Streaks (Ghosting) on Walls" - ISU Extension Pub. Article Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3404 >This portion of an Extension Publication was sent to me by someone who has >also been looking into this issue of soot deposition; however,it doesn't >appear to be the article in it's entirety. If anyone on this list has access >to this publication would you kindly forward a copy of it to me or fax a copy >of this article to: 972-527-6608. Is anyone familiar or aquiainted with the >article's author, Thomas H. Greiner, from Iowa State? I've tried to search it >out on their web site, but since I don't have a date of publication I haven't >been too successful. It may be that this article is too recent to have been >added to the archives at this point. >Thanks - >Cathy Cathy, Tom is with cooperative extension at Iowa State U in Ames. His number is 515-294-0464. I have a similar article coming out in Home Energy magazine this summer. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 23 16:37:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA01785 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:37:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25818; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:25:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 May 1998 16:21:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA25221 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:21:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25201; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA07110; Sat, 23 May 1998 13:27:01 -0700 Message-ID: <356730CC.7AC02313@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 13:25:49 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "strawbale@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: living roofs again Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3405 I have an odd question about a roofing detail. Some friends of mine, two older women moved recently from the city to a large rural acreage. With limited income and strong environmental principles (the two do not often go well together) they are working to upgrade buildings on the property. A couple of buildings were (extreme low slope) roofed with tar and gravel over t&g decking (no insulation). One is currently used as a rental by someone with env. sensitivities. The roof needs renewal and insulation. Insulation needs to be above the decking. The conventional options are not great. Torch-on is the most common local treatment and not an option. I might have specified eps foam topped with a membrane and soil or gravel ballast but the cost of insulation and membrane are beyond their means and there was interest in water collection for reuse. My other thought for which I would like some comment is: 6 or 8 mil poly with caulked and taped seams (vapour 'tuck' tape) and gasketed penetrations 1" eps foam with foam bonded and taped seams, penetrations foamed and gasketed drainage layer (aggregate or foam strips or plastic channel) fabric reedbale (canary grass actually) peat or reversed sod layer soil (seeded or hydroseeded) Though to me this is an interesting and perhaps cost effective solution for insulation and waterproofing, and the result of a living roof would be nice, there are a large number of issues here: structural (I'll use saturated bale weight for load but no budget for certification) liability (no chance of passing this on to an engineer) insurance (i.e no chance of collecting on failure) performance (a lot of inherent risk) communication (of all the above to the owner) This is not something I would do for a client unless I had the means to provide a certifiable roof prior to loading it with bales and I would have the client technically load the bales and complete the roof. This is for a friend without the means and I would like to both help out and maintain friendship. Any thoughts on details (how to improve, etc). One question was whether bales or loose straw would be preferable (I would like to increase slope and provide contour to enhance top surface drainage which would be easier to do with loose straw. Another question is whether it would be useful to add a mix to the straw to provide a light coating and bind (might increase ease of drainage and lessen the potential for saturation of the material and prolong the life of the straw. Any thoughts as well as to longevity of the bales in this application? John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 23 16:49:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA02487 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:49:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA26395; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:38:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 May 1998 16:34:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA26117 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA26113 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.116] (ub19.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.116]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA24613 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 16:42:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <355B943A.9148E54E@ivnet.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 16:51:50 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Operable Windows in Commercial Buildings Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3406 >John Straube wrote: >> >> I have had this question asked of me so often. When I tell students that >> most office towers are air conditioning all winter long, they say "Why >> not open a window?". I dont have a lot of answers. >> > >I think that almost all of these buildings are set up to provide make-up >air, a varying amount of outside air is mixed in with the recirculated >air, depending on the temperature required at the fresh air ducts. So I >doubt that the chillers would be functioning if the outside air temp was >low enough. I've never built one, or worked on the systems of an older >building, tho. >Bruce Donelson >A Better Builder >Takilma OR Using outdoor air to cool off the core of non-residential buildings when it's cold enough outdoors is a common prctice in cold and mixed climates, uncommon (because it won't work) in hot, humid climates. They generally use a control sequence called ASHRAE cycle 2 or ASHRAE cycle 4. The amount of outdoor air increases if the room airtemperature is a degree or two above the room stat setpoint. In economizer mode, the fraction of outdoor air in the supply air is controlled by a stat located in the supply or the mixed air. So, if the room is 72 degrees F and outdoors is 55 degrees F and the discharge stat is set at 55 degrees F, the supply air will be 100% outdoor air. When it's 37 degrees F outside, the supply air will be 50% outdoor air. This setup is also commonly used in perimeter rooms with high gains from occupants, equipment or the sun - like school classrooms. Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 23 17:51:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA03907 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 17:51:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA28006; Sat, 23 May 1998 17:39:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 May 1998 17:35:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA27790 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 May 1998 17:35:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27786 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 17:35:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.116] (ub24.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.121]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA05038 for ; Sat, 23 May 1998 17:43:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35651653.3CAF5C0B@cow-net.com> References: <199805220038.RAA19540@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 17:47:29 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: kitchen cabinets Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3407 >We've used a variety of food safe oils - I think it is a tung oil that we >have used >most and most frequently (I'll have to check). Forms a very hard durable film >(basically a varnish) have to be careful of the source (ensure that it is >marketed >as food safe). Generally I'm not that fond of a sealant and I'm not sure >what the >basis of concern is. If concrete has a high cement content and is >extremely well >worked the resultant surface is considerably less porous than marble. Most >surfaces >can retain a remarkable amount of bacteria (laminates included) - they >just have >that clean look and I think in this case a sealant does not really >contribute to >'cleanliness'. It can resist stains to some degree and provide a sheen. Sodium >silicate (waterglass) can be used to harden the surface and provide an >extra degree >of actual waterproofness, have to check with John Straube on that but I find a >higher cement ratio and a longer finishing period can have a similar >result (this is >one of the reasons I prefer top finishing as apposed to a reverse cast, >another >reason is you get much less light glare off the surface) > >John Salmen >TERRAIN E.D.S. > Barbara, I like stainless steel for kitchen countertops because it lasts a very long time and because it can be sanitized. It is expensive, requires specialized skills and tools to shape, has a reasonable resale value (nobody throws stainless out - you find a way to work it in) and you can weld in vegetable sinks. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 24 08:11:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA25423 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 08:11:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12600; Sun, 24 May 1998 08:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 24 May 1998 07:55:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA12344 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 07:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA12337 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 07:55:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.201.91] (usr2a91.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.91]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA19716; Sun, 24 May 1998 08:03:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <208f480a.35671db8@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 08:05:02 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: Apology from the list manager Cc: Rkfabf Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3408 Hi folks, Occassionally, for technical reasons, we list managers have to review and repost a message that someone has sent to the list. In doing so yesterday, I managed to send the message from Rkfabf@aol.com through without a subject line. I know how annoying this is to people trying to manage lots of e-mail, so please accept my apology. This was not the fault of the original sender, though it looks as thought the subjectless message came directly from that person. Thanks, Nadav Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 24 10:47:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28731 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 10:47:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15016; Sun, 24 May 1998 10:36:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 24 May 1998 10:32:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14807 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 10:32:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14803 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 10:32:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA76758; Sun, 24 May 1998 08:39:34 -0600 Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 08:39:34 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Tom Phillips Cc: GREENBLDGLIST , "ROBERTS, JOHN" Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses In-Reply-To: <355B1D58.5721@arb.ca.gov> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3409 You said: "I don't know of anyway to remove or detoxify lead in soil other than truck it away,.." __________________________________________________________________________ Tom:I recently found reference to an article entitled: "Geraniums absorb heavy metal, professor claims". Geraniums were found to "absorb and accumulate unimaginable amounts of toxic heavy metals from contaminated soils". When Saxena watered his geranium cuttings with various metal solutions within 2 weeks they absorbed up to...18,700 milligrams of lead..." If you want to check the reality and replication of this theory you can call is gentleman at (519) 824-4120. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 24 12:17:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01460 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 12:17:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16736; Sun, 24 May 1998 12:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 24 May 1998 12:01:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16455 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 24 May 1998 12:01:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR06 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.178]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16449 for ; Sun, 24 May 1998 12:01:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from steve - 208.253.186.6 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 24 May 1998 09:08:46 -0700 From: "Steven L. Katz" To: "greenbuilding" Subject: GBlist: Tung oil substitute Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 12:14:22 -0400 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Message-ID: <018ad4608161858UPIMSSMTPUSR06@email.msn.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3410 I remember recently seeing a post to this list from someone dewtailing the horrors of using/working with tung oil and suggesting a substitute. Like virtually all greenbuilding messages, I read it, deleted it, and deleted it further. Wouldn't you know it but my wife brought home a container of tung oil the other day because it was recommended by the people we just bought some unfinished pine furniture from as a substitute for polyurethane. Could whoever it was that responded to the tung oil question the last time be so kind as to send it to the list again so I can refer to it? Thank you so much in advance. I am sorry to bother the group with another copy of "yesterday's news". Please forgive me. Steve Katz Lexington, KY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 25 06:20:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA03562 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 06:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA09748; Mon, 25 May 1998 06:08:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 May 1998 06:04:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA09491 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 May 1998 06:04:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA09487 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 06:03:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.201.69] (usr2a69.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.69]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA05404; Mon, 25 May 1998 06:12:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <018ad4608161858UPIMSSMTPUSR06@email.msn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 06:13:30 -0400 To: "Steven L. Katz" From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Tung oil substitute Cc: "greenbuilding" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3411 Steve, There have been a flurry of messages on this topic in the past week. The best way to view old messages is to use the list archives kindly provided by CREST: Go to the "Discussion groups" area of www.crest.org or go straight to: http://solstice.crest.org/sustainable/greenbuilding-list-archive/ Nadav At 12:14 PM -0400 5/24/98, Steven L. Katz wrote: >I remember recently seeing a post to this list from someone dewtailing the >horrors of using/working with tung oil and suggesting a substitute. Like >virtually all greenbuilding messages, I read it, deleted it, and deleted it >further. > >Wouldn't you know it but my wife brought home a container of tung oil the >other day because it was recommended by the people we just bought some >unfinished pine furniture from as a substitute for polyurethane. > >Could whoever it was that responded to the tung oil question the last time >be so kind as to send it to the list again so I can refer to it? > >Thank you so much in advance. I am sorry to bother the group with another >copy of "yesterday's news". Please forgive me. > >Steve Katz >Lexington, KY Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 25 11:10:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11620 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:10:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17187; Mon, 25 May 1998 10:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 May 1998 10:54:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16913 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 May 1998 10:54:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.42]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16909 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 10:54:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ANovelli@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4EPBa18868 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:02:02 -0400 (EDT) From: ANovelli Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:02:02 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3412 Regarding the mention of geraniums to extract heavy metal concentrations, I would recommend further exploring this new approach-called phytoremediation. I saw a presentation by Rufus Chaney, an agronomist with the USDA at last years Bioneers conference in San Fran where he detailed the uptake abilities of certain species and sub-species of plants. Most of his research identified removal of zinc and cadmium (alpine penncress can store up to 25,000 ppm of zinc!), though I'm not sure about lead. Chaney's work is impressive, working on mining sites and brownfields with good results. His work was mentioned in the May-June issue of UTNE Reader, and a variety of other publications. Check out the company Phytotech, a New Jersey- based company that is using the results of Chaney' work (coupled with the garden designs of NY sculptor Mel Chin) that is finding applications that are truly exciting. They called a beautiful garden that acted as a remediation test project a "Revival Field." I can't put my fingers on his business card right now, but will post his contact info to the list ASAP. A web search for 'phytoremediation' will probably come up with it too. Good Luck, Tony Novelli Development Center for Appropriate Technology Tucson, AZ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 25 11:21:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11925 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17720; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:09:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 May 1998 11:06:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17421 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:05:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17417 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id BEQTa02436; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:12:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcoplos Message-ID: <2624452e.35698a54@aol.com> Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:12:18 EDT To: cwebb@az.com, fostercm@mkf.ornl.gov Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: greywater treatment and dry wells? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3413 In a message dated 98-05-22 13:58:09 EDT, cwebb@az.com writes: << Putting untreated greywater directly into the groundwater via a dry well does not seem like a good idea, it is usually best to just put it at the root level of plants and let them drink it up. >> Actually the pathogens in the mix are separated from whatever biosolids they are feeding on by ionized soil particles which attract them - and then they die. It doesn't take much soil to cleanse a mixture of the pathogens which (assuming toxic chemicals are not being introduced) is the goal. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 25 11:29:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA12117 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18242; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:17:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 May 1998 11:13:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17867 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:13:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17861 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:13:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA22613; Mon, 25 May 1998 08:21:48 -0700 Message-Id: <35698CC3.62B4@arb.ca.gov> Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 08:22:43 -0700 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: CARB/Research Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Cc: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, "ROBERTS, JOHN" Subject: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3414 JORG: thx. for the "lead" on lead removal by plants. I haven't looked into this area for quite a while, but I recall various studies over the years on veggie gardens picking up heavy metals from sewage slude compost. This area appears ripe for further research. Sounds like the high-lead geraniums must be fenced off to keep munching kids away, and that the plants must be pruned (and leaves picked up) and taken to a hazardous waste facility!! Cheers, Tom ---------------- Tom:I recently found reference to an article entitled: "Geraniums absorb heavy metal, professor claims". Geraniums were found to "absorb and accumulate unimaginable amounts of toxic heavy metals from contaminated soils". When Saxena watered his geranium cuttings with various metal solutions within 2 weeks they absorbed up to...18,700 milligrams of lead..." If you want to check the reality and replication of this theory you can call is gentleman at (519) 824-4120. -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 25 11:55:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA12650 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19266; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:43:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 May 1998 11:39:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18946 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18942 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:39:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek (sA8-p42.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.234]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA17055 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:47:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35699137.181D@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:41:43 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: phytoremediation primer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3415 This site has a basic EPA primer on phytoremediation and links for further study: http://clu-in.com/citguide/phyto.htm Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 25 12:11:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13058 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 12:11:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19923; Mon, 25 May 1998 12:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 May 1998 11:56:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA19652 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:56:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19648 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:56:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.254.3.86] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Mon, 25 May 1998 09:05:52 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 09:03:28 -0700 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1316035342-1521806@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3416 Using plants to pull heavy metals out of the soil sounds like a great way to address the problem. Did I miss the part about what to do with the plants? I assume you remove the biomass to another location. Wouldn't this have to be treated as hazardous waste? Bruce S >Regarding the mention of geraniums to extract heavy metal concentrations, I >would recommend further exploring this new approach-called phytoremediation. ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 25 13:40:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15404 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 13:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23104; Mon, 25 May 1998 13:28:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 May 1998 13:24:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22818 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 May 1998 13:23:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mg1.rockymtn.net (mailserv.rockymtn.net [166.93.205.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22814 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 13:23:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rainbow.rmi.net (rainbow [166.93.8.14]) by mg1.rockymtn.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02741 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:32:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from balsol.rmi.net (slip1064.rmii.com [166.93.10.64]) by rainbow.rmi.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA13347 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 11:32:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805251732.LAA13347@rainbow.rmi.net> X-Sender: balsol@rmi.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 11:33:11 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Steve Berlant Subject: GBlist: New Books! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3417 Hello everyone: I thought that many of you would be interested in the 3 books that I have just completed [after years of research] on natural building . This series is a compendium that has compiled many sources of information and digested them into easy to read, heavily footnoted guidebooks to give credibility to building naturally. There's a Cob book, an "Adobe" book and a Natural Plasters book. I have an order form, sample pages and the full table of contents for each book available at my web site: www.naturalbuilder.com [Go to the "Store" page.] The series is only available through my web site. Thanks for your time! Steve Berlant www.naturalbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 25 14:34:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16687 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 14:34:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24794; Mon, 25 May 1998 14:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 May 1998 14:18:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24467 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 May 1998 14:18:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24461 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 14:18:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27976; Mon, 25 May 1998 12:25:38 -0600 Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 12:25:37 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Tom Phillips Cc: GREENBLDGLIST , "ROBERTS, JOHN" Subject: GBlist: PhytoRemediation In-Reply-To: <35698CC3.62B4@arb.ca.gov> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3418 You said:"Sounds like the high-lead geraniums must be fenced off to keep munching kids away, and that the plants must be pruned (and leaves picked up) and taken to a hazardous waste facility!!" __________________________________________________________________________ Perhaps after doing more research you can tell us which plants you have chosen to avoid the above. As mentioned earlier, some plants metabolize the poisons and reconstitute them into safe by-products. Don't ask me for details, ask the plants. Jorg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 25 16:30:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA20552 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 16:30:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28853; Mon, 25 May 1998 16:18:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 May 1998 16:14:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA28525 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 May 1998 16:14:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28521 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 16:14:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA15252; Mon, 25 May 1998 13:19:56 -0700 Message-ID: <3569D229.ABE71AB4@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 13:18:50 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Sullivan CC: Green Building Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Based Paint in Old Houses References: <1316035342-1521806@irisinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3419 I mentioned in the first go round of this subject the use in phytoremediation of mustard and tomato. I think I mentioned that you need to run quite a few successive plantings (as many in a season as possible and for successive years) to have any effect as the leaf mass is small in comparison to what is being removed. the material contains lead so is hazardous or suitable for removal and reuse of the lead, whatever is available. I looked at this for remediation of soil around an old house but the occupant was MCS and the increased moisture against the house would have led to other concerns. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Bruce Sullivan wrote: > Using plants to pull heavy metals out of the soil sounds like a great way > to address the problem. Did I miss the part about what to do with the > plants? I assume you remove the biomass to another location. Wouldn't > this have to be treated as hazardous waste? > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon May 25 23:12:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03482 for ; Mon, 25 May 1998 23:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA11193; Mon, 25 May 1998 23:00:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 May 1998 22:56:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10617 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 May 1998 22:55:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10600; Mon, 25 May 1998 22:55:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA27471; Mon, 25 May 1998 20:01:40 -0700 Message-ID: <356A3050.79E3BF22@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 20:00:33 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Swearingen CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: living roofs again References: <01IXGKNEP3NM8ZPG9U@delphi.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3420 I'm sure many people have made comments as to why people would want to put bales in walls covered with a relatively skinny mixture of mud or cement. Obviously there is some incentive out there that overrules more critical thought. The principle here is similar but as in everything a little different; bales on a roof should have two functions; insulation and drainage. The layer below the bales is intended to facilitate drainage and prevent the bales from getting their feet wet. It would be useful to start with dry bales. The soil and cover is intended to promote surface water retention and facilitate surface runoff and perimeter drainage - I think the best 'mix' would be sod layers, roots up roots down. The decomposition of the first green layer could form an effective moisture barrier. As to insulative properties. It would be difficult to saturate the bales in these circumstances (I've tried and the gain is minimal). The question would be what kind of values remain and how to compensate. Obviously in the coldest weather precipitation would be of the solid kind, the worst period of use would be in a slow thaw situation. As to worthiness of use. There are always better solutions but most involve greater cost. Its conceivable that this kind of assembly could last 15-20 years but even if renewal is 5 years the product is a composted material and the cost of renewal fairly inexpensive. I'm feeling a little defensive of a concept I'm not even that fond of but I'd like to hear some good thoughts as to potential. Living roofs are still a relatively undefined area of construction but are, and certainly will result in more impact than bale walls - and straw or similar material (reed grass, bamboo, etc.) seems potentially ideal in a roof application. At least it makes positive use of more than one of the materials properties and utilizes a cycling of the material. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. John Swearingen wrote: > On 23-MAY-1998 16:33:08.6 terrain said to BALEHEAD > >Any thoughts on details (how to improve, etc). One question was whether > >bales or loose straw would be preferable (I would like to increase slope > >and provide contour to enhance top surface drainage which would be > >easier to do with loose straw. > > I haven't quite understood why people want to put wet bales on their roof. > Wet bales are poor insulation and not a very good growing medium. The total > weight of the roof could be reduced considerably by using a good lightweight > soil growing medium. But if you must have straw on top of your roof, I'd > use loose straw. > > Another question is whether it would be > >useful to add a mix to the straw to provide a light coating and bind > >(might increase ease of drainage and lessen the potential for saturation > >of the material and prolong the life of the straw. > > Yes. I think the key to a sucessful living roof lies in the careful > engineering of the mix on top viz a viz: moisture retention, nutrients for > the desired plantings, etc. A good soil mix may not cost much, but will > make all the difference. > > >Any thoughts as well as to longevity of the bales in this application? > > Not long enough to make their use worthwhile. (well, you asked for ANY > thoughts...) > > John > > John Swearingen > Skillful Means....design/build http://www.snowcrest.net/smb > > `[1;31;40mRainbow V 1.20.2 for Delphi - Test Drive ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 09:42:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA19415 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 09:42:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26307; Tue, 26 May 1998 09:30:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 09:24:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25825 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 09:24:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25821 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 09:24:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA42772; Tue, 26 May 1998 07:30:47 -0600 Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 07:30:47 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "David F. Lambertson" Cc: Daniel , "Marc J. Rosenbaum" , GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Greywater Publication In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980413034923.006ca580@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3421 To those who missed my earlier posting on this publication, here it is again. The publication is called: Advancing the "Light Grey Option"- Making Residential Greywater Reuse Happen which you may be able to order from CMHC at (613) 748-2367. ******************************************************************************** Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Sun, 12 Apr 1998, David F. Lambertson wrote: > > More Greywater info: > Further to the request for papers on the above topic, CMHC has a very good > paper on the topic, including schematics, in case anyone is interested. If > anyone is interested and does not know the reference, please contact me so > that I can dig up the official title and contact. > _________________________________________________________ > Jorg Ostrowski > > Sorry to post this to everyone, but I don't keep everyone's address. Jorg, > I would appreciate more info on this subject. Thanks, Sacie Lambertson ____________________________________________________________________________ Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 21:31:11 -0700 From: Daniel To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Subject: Greywater info Jorg, I would like more info on the source you mentioned ... CMHC. Many thanks.> _____________________________________________________________________________ Date: 13 Apr 98 07:59:43 EDT From: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca Subject: Re: GBlist: Greywater --- You wrote: Jorg, I would appreciate more info on this subject. --- end of quote --- I would like the reference, also, Jorg, if you'd be so kind... Marc _____________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 10:17:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20383 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28046; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:05:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 10:01:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27605 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:01:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27587; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:01:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA64906; Tue, 26 May 1998 08:09:03 -0600 Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:09:02 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: stop all environmental progress Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3422 Is there any reality to persistent rumours that several very powerful multi-national corporations have dedicated substantial money and formed a powerful coalition to accomplish the above? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 10:26:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20605 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:26:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29032; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:14:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 10:10:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28404 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:10:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28378; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA102434; Tue, 26 May 1998 08:17:50 -0600 Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:17:50 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: small single-rooom, through-the-wall HRV Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3423 Has anyone found, tried or know about the above to dehumidify a small greenhouse (ie.100 SF) in a cold climate? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 10:38:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20976 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00135; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:26:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 10:23:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29778 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:22:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29772 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:22:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id K{V20700; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:28:51 EDT To: mac@cacr.caltech.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 11:16:53 -0700 Subject: GBlist: countertops-kitchen Message-ID: <19980526.103311.6638.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199805220038.RAA19540@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-7 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3424 Dear Barbara et al, For a clear, environmentally safe concrete sealer try Concure. Contact Steve Ziegler at PO Box 297, Edgemont, Pa, 19028 or call at 800-925-7746. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 11:05:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA21693 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 11:05:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02026; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:53:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 10:48:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01346 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:47:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01330; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:47:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA05834; Tue, 26 May 1998 07:53:43 -0700 Message-ID: <356AD735.49F52FEB@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 07:52:37 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: small single-rooom, through-the-wall HRV References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3425 Other than a dehumidifying heat pump or air to water hp I had looked at a simple approach of circulating the air through a ground coupled rock bed within the green house. Providing you can consistently get a dew point within the rock bed this could make water available for plants and effect some continuous removal. John Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Has anyone found, tried or know about the above to dehumidify a small greenhouse > (ie.100 SF) in a cold climate? Jorg Ostrowski > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 13:36:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26181 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 13:36:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10263; Tue, 26 May 1998 13:24:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 13:20:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA09843 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 13:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09783 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 13:19:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA02313; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:27:48 -0700 Message-Id: <356AFBC8.8F3@arb.ca.gov> Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:28:40 -0700 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: CARB/Research Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Cc: "SIMONS, GEORGE" , brian.sehnert@smud.org, "WALDMAN, JED" , "SPARK, BARBARA" Subject: GBlist: GREEN/HEALTHY BLDGS. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3426 FYI, useful info from the Swedish Council for Building Research (http://www.bfr.se, English option), which appears to have a fairly aggressive program for healthy buildings and sustainable development. Subscription to their newsletter is free. They are co-sponsoring a conference in June on Sustainable Construction/Development (CIB World Congress, http://www.bmg.kth.se/cib98.htm). Items of interest are listed below: Key Action THE HEALTHY BUILDING, http://www.bfr.se/default.asp?id=4915 Goal-related building research for better health and environment. E. Abel, J. Andersson, B. Berglund, G. Bylin, N. Dawidowicz, S.O. Hanssen, T. Lindvall, B. Lundgren, U. Norlén and I. Samuelson The overriding goals of the key action during the programme period are: to cut by half the number of indoor environment related health problems which are at present unexplained, to cut by half the risk of errors in design, construction and building management which may cause indoor environment related health problems, by alleviating the lack of knowledge in these areas. (Research needs and strategy are discussed) ENGLISH PUBLICATIONS ON LINE, http://www.bfr.se/default.asp?id=4915: Admit the green issues into the planning process! T7:1997 Ros-Marie Edström 115,00 kr Baltic Cities - Global Aspects on Urban Settlements in the Baltic Sea Region. Conference Report. T14:1998 Editors: Ros-Mari Edström & Gun Frank 256,00 kr Drying of Construction Water in Concrete T9:1997 Göran Hedenblad 245,00 kr Educational campaign for healthy buildings - Educational material D1:1994 Swedish Council for Building Research 200,00 kr Energy Efficiency in Office Buildings. Lessons from Swedish Projects T10:1997 Anders Nilsson, Ragnar Uppström & Christer Hjalmarsson 250,00 kr Land Management T8:1997 Gerhard Larsson 375,00 kr Research for a better built environment G5:1997 Presentation of the the Swedish Council for Building Research Swedish Bole Houses T13:1997 Gunnar Henriksson 250,00 kr The Energy Book T6:1996 Swedish Council for Building Research 320,00 kr The radon book - measures against radon D4:1994 Bertil Clavensjö, Gustav Åkerblom 440,00 kr -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 13:44:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26412 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 13:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10969; Tue, 26 May 1998 13:32:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 13:28:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA10520 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 13:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10485; Tue, 26 May 1998 13:27:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust179.tnt2.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.31.179]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id MAA19334; Tue, 26 May 1998 12:34:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <356AD499.4C3F@gte.net> Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:41:29 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: stop all environmental progress References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3427 Jorg asks, Is there any reality to persistent rumours that several very powerful multi-national corporations have dedicated substantial money and formed a powerful coalition to accomplish the above? Cindy Pollock Shea replies, I guess it depends on how explicit or paranoid you want to be. Certainly in the U.S. there's a concerted, multi-industry initiative to keep the climate change treaty from being implemented into national law. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 14:10:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA27253 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 14:10:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12841; Tue, 26 May 1998 13:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 13:54:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA12239 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 13:53:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12227; Tue, 26 May 1998 13:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip222.efn.org [204.214.97.222]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA03659; Tue, 26 May 1998 10:59:24 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert Bolman" To: , "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Cc: "GreenBuilding Listserver" , "Strawbale Listserver" Subject: Re: GBlist: stop all environmental progress Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:47:00 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd88ce$591300a0$de61d6cc@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3428 The bottom line for me is that people in general, but politicians and corporate executives in particular have an amazing capacity for talking themselves into believing the most preposterous things when it happens to be conveneint for their careers and profit margins. The sleeziest politician, the greediest CEO and the most brutal dictator all wake up in the morning, look at themselves in the mirror and sincerely believe that their behavior is acceptable. It's called DENIAL. Robert Bolman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 16:47:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA02865 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 16:47:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA21863; Tue, 26 May 1998 16:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 16:31:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA21495 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 16:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21489 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 16:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 26 May 1998 16:36:39 -0400 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF1355AE@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: GBlist: Construction Waste Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:36:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3429 Does anyone know of a good (re)use for 10 year old, 2' x 4' lay in florescent light fixtures ? We have about 1200 to get rid of and so far the best we can do is remove the ballast ( T-12, 277v, no PCB's) and bulbs, and take the metal to the scrap yard. I found a source for T-8, 120v ballasts for about $15.00 each if someone chose to retrofit them. Suggestions ? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Drew George, Green Building Champion Bovis Construction Corp 11 Lincoln Parkway, Annapolis MD 21401 Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 17:05:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA03557 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 17:05:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22954; Tue, 26 May 1998 16:53:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 16:49:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22552 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 16:49:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22541 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 16:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.198.23.82] (uA1-c17.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.82]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA07321 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 16:57:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 17:07:14 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: stop all environmental progress Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3430 >Is there any reality to persistent rumours that several very powerful >multi-national corporations have dedicated substantial money and formed a >powerful coalition to accomplish the above? Jorg Ostrowski Jorg, At the risk of annoying my fellow free market advocates - I believe that there is. I find evidence for this belief in a number of resources - the Wall Street Journal is one of the best, because many folks ferevntly believe in the benefits of the current free market version of trickle down, they fail to hide their hidden agenda. To quote Tom Paxton, "You don't have to parody these people, you just have to quote them". Other very helpful sources for me along these lines are newsletters from my health care provider, Gore Vidal, Noam Chomski and a website which carries a series of columns on corporations - Focus on the Corporation columns are posted on the Multinational Monitor web site . I like to get several stories on the same issue from different points of view (like in the movie Roshoman), and I like to know where funding for the authors comes from. "You tell me where a man gets his cornpones and I'll tell you what his opinions are." - Mark Twain Currently there is a substantial effort to provide educational programs presenting the large corporation point-of-view of environmental issues to US school children. The organizations pursuing this goal believe that environmental education in the states has historically been in the hands of environmental radicals pursuing an anti-capitalist agenda. My recollection is that I read this information in a business oriented newsletter I get. I'll see if I can track it down. My observation of actions and writings from the "wise-use movement" leads me to believe that they also represent a well-funded reaction by the extraction and public-land-resource-harvesting industries to environmental protection of extracted, forest and agricultural resources on public lands. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 18:17:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA06187 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 18:17:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA26503; Tue, 26 May 1998 18:06:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 18:02:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA25839 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 18:01:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linguist (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA25834; Tue, 26 May 1998 18:01:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.123] (ka3-123.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.123]) by linguist (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA05391; Tue, 26 May 1998 18:09:43 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 17:01:15 -0400 To: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Extending rubble trenches Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id SAB25836 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3431 Hallo. I've been mulling this one over, and darned if I can figure out a solution. Suppose you've got a structure which is resting firmly and happily on a rubble trench foundation. Suppose that you live in a heating climate, where some frost protection is absolutely necessary. And finally, suppose that you want to build an extension. Obviously you can't just dig down next to the rubble trench foundation. It'll run out from under the house. Fwoosh. So how do you contain the foundation, *before* you dig? And if you can't do that, then what are the alternatives? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 19:22:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08505 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29147; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:09:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 19:05:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA28863 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:05:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA28859 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:05:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id SAA0000008712; Tue, 26 May 1998 18:13:22 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980526231556.0067d03c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 18:15:56 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Cleansing Action of Plants Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3432 The best of my gardening publications, 'Avant Gardener' in its most recent issue, a special one about water, references the potential cleansing action of plants and the work of several involved in studying this. In addition to mentioning the Living Machine work of Dr. John Todd of the Center for Protection and Restoration of Waters, referenced in earlier list discussions, there are two others, a Dr. William Jewell of Cornell (Ithaca NY 14850) who has a system that captures methane gas produced by bacterial decomposition to use for power and a Dr. Bill Wolverton (Northeast Mississippi Community College, Booneville, MS 38829) who has developed a system to purify water via potted plants. This might be a system Jorg mentions that he uses. The address for the AG is Box 489 NY, NY 10028; this issue is $3. The information, a horticultural news service, is reliable. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 19:31:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08896 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:31:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29864; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:20:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 19:16:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA29511 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:16:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA29507 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:16:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id SAA0000006979; Tue, 26 May 1998 18:24:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980526232651.006aa34c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 18:26:51 -0500 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Greywater Publication Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3433 At 07:30 AM 26-05-98 -0600, you wrote: >To those who missed my earlier posting on this publication, here it >is again. The publication is called: >Advancing the "Light Grey Option"- Making Residential Greywater Reuse Happen >which you may be able to order from CMHC at (613) 748-2367. Regarding the above publication, I ended up not sending my $10 for it (free if you're Canadian) because there are no system schematics. I understand it simply talks about making 'use' of grey water. I know the basics and want more. But thank you for repeating the information. If someone sends for it and finds it more useful than for just basics, let me know and I'll recant. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 20:11:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA09975 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 20:11:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02140; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 19:55:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01863 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:55:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01858 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 19:55:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.254.3.181] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Tue, 26 May 1998 17:05:42 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Greywater Publication Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 17:03:15 -0700 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1315920151-460558@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3434 I can't remember if anyone mentioned two books we carry in the Iris Catalog . They are "Create an Oasis with Greywater" and the "Building Professional's Greywater Guide." Both are very practical. Full descriptions appear on the Web site. Now, they've been mentioned. Bruce S >>To those who missed my earlier posting on this publication, here it >>is again. The publication is called: >>Advancing the "Light Grey Option"- Making Residential Greywater Reuse Happen >>which you may be able to order from CMHC at (613) 748-2367. > >Regarding the above publication, I ended up not sending my $10 for it (free >if you're Canadian) because there are no system schematics. I understand it >simply talks about making 'use' of grey water. I know the basics and want >more. But thank you for repeating the information. If someone sends for it >and finds it more useful than for just basics, let me know and I'll recant. >Sacie Lambertson ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 21:33:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA12448 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:33:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05648; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:21:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 21:17:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05134 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05130; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:16:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA29424; Tue, 26 May 1998 18:22:51 -0700 Message-ID: <356B6AAA.C7091F45@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 18:21:46 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag Alden CC: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List Subject: Re: GBlist: Extending rubble trenches References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3435 Fwoosh is a nice word. Chance are you would be digging at an angle not parallel to the exterior trench and the trench extends beyond the foundation so should be relatively stable if cut at an angle. John Speireag Alden wrote: > Hallo. > > I've been mulling this one over, and darned if I can figure out a solution. > > Suppose you've got a structure which is resting firmly and happily on a > rubble trench foundation. Suppose that you live in a heating climate, > where some frost protection is absolutely necessary. And finally, suppose > that you want to build an extension. > > Obviously you can't just dig down next to the rubble trench foundation. > It'll run out from under the house. Fwoosh. > > So how do you contain the foundation, *before* you dig? And if you > can't do that, then what are the alternatives? > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 21:48:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA12896 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06643; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:36:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 21:32:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA06169 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:32:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06157; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Home.gte.net (1Cust94.tnt2.tampa.fl.da.uu.net [153.37.185.94]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with ESMTP id UAA14720; Tue, 26 May 1998 20:39:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805270139.UAA14720@smtp2.mailsrvcs.net> Reply-To: From: "solargrl" To: "GreenBuilding Listserver" , "Strawbale Listserver" Subject: GBlist: Re: stop all environmental progress Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:33:58 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3436 >but this ranks right up there with flesh eating aliens > who > drove here to eat humans -- ignoring the fact that if they can > generate that > much energy they could teraform Pluto. What I want to know is what did they drive, where can I get one, and how do we know they HAVEN'T already teraformed Pluto??? ;-) Bonnie "What a terrible waste it is to lose one's mind." (then-Vice President Dan Quayle) SolarGirl's Green Pages: http://www.geocities.com/rainforest/7540/index.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 22:07:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA13844 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 22:07:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08005; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:55:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 21:51:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07465 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:51:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07459; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:51:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA11030; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:59:24 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:59:23 EDT From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Extending rubble trenches To: Speireag Alden cc: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3437 On Tue, 26 May 1998, Speireag Alden wrote: > Suppose you've got a structure which is resting firmly and happily on a > rubble trench foundation. Suppose that you live in a heating climate, > where some frost protection is absolutely necessary. And finally, suppose > that you want to build an extension. > Obviously you can't just dig down next to the rubble trench foundation. > It'll run out from under the house. Fwoosh. I would suggest digging a small hole, say 8" diameter, next to the foundation. There should be enough arching action in the soil to support the rubble around the hole. Fill hole with concrete. If the rubble is quite a bit wider at bottom than top, drill hole another hole to less depth nearer the top rubble. Now dig the trench (to less depth than the post) for the new foundation, and the concrete post stops movement. This technique will depend on soil conditions -- in hard dry clay it would not be needed, in loose sand, a series of holes would be needed. That the best I can think of off the top of my head. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue May 26 23:57:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA17304 for ; Tue, 26 May 1998 23:57:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA12347; Tue, 26 May 1998 23:46:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 May 1998 23:41:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11825 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 May 1998 23:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA11811; Tue, 26 May 1998 23:41:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA51054; Tue, 26 May 1998 21:48:43 -0600 Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 21:48:43 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Salmen Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: small single-rooom, through-the-wall HRV In-Reply-To: <356AD735.49F52FEB@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3438 John: Thanks for the suggestion, but I do not know of any rock storage system that was successful and I would hate to make a bad problem worse by adding high humidity to dark areas for fungus, mould and other critters. Jorg Ostrowski __________________________________________________________________________ On Tue, 26 May 1998, John Salmen wrote: > > Other than a dehumidifying heat pump or air to water hp I had looked at a simple > approach of circulating the air through a ground coupled rock bed within the green > house. Providing you can consistently get a dew point within the rock bed this could > make water available for plants and effect some continuous removal. > > John > > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > Has anyone found, tried or know about the above to dehumidify a small greenhouse > > (ie.100 SF) in a cold climate? Jorg Ostrowski > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 27 02:10:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA20734 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 02:10:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA16012; Wed, 27 May 1998 01:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 May 1998 01:54:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA15782 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 01:54:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA15778 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 01:54:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv14.1) id 4GCPa15838 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 02:01:41 -0400 (EDT) From: JNH2 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 02:01:41 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Extending rubble trenches Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3439 How about this... Dig along (parallel to) the rubble foundation slightly deeper than the foundation is wide and only 6" to 8" out from the existing foundation for several feet to either side of where you want the extension. In the same day (hopefully!) and without a gully-washer rain threatening, pour thinned out concrete, or well sanded mortar, into the trench. That should sluice into the interstitial spaces in the rubble foundation and create a form of a concrete wall with very large aggregate. Give the concrete a day or two to develop a good bound and then dig out a bit futher down, now that the top of the rubble foundation wall is stablized without the soil support, and do the same trick until you get to the required depth. This method will also give you a good "cold" joint between the existing foundation and the new one so that any differential movement/settling will not break either foundation and lead to leaks. Let us know how it comes out, it does sound like a tricky situation to wrangle with. Good Luck! Jim Holdcraft ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 27 08:45:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA00336 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 08:45:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23931; Wed, 27 May 1998 08:33:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 May 1998 08:28:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA23548 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 08:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23544 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 08:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA89078; Wed, 27 May 1998 06:35:24 -0600 Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 06:35:24 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "David F. Lambertson" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Greywater Publication In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980526232651.006aa34c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3440 Sacie: My copy of the CMHC publication DOES have a very good plumbing schematic entitiled: "Light Grey Option Schematic" showing plumbing schematic, one level cascading and LGW supply to appliances. There are also several charts including a "Contaminant Barrier" list. Greywater Treatment Requirements are also listed including: 1) flow 2) chemical charactertistics 3) contaminants of concern and 4) treatability. We have found it a very useful reference. ******************************************************************************** Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Tue, 26 May 1998, David F. Lambertson wrote: > > At 07:30 AM 26-05-98 -0600, you wrote: > >To those who missed my earlier posting on this publication, here it > >is again. The publication is called: > >Advancing the "Light Grey Option"- Making Residential Greywater Reuse Happen > >which you may be able to order from CMHC at (613) 748-2367. > > Regarding the above publication, I ended up not sending my $10 for it (free > if you're Canadian) because there are no system schematics. I understand it > simply talks about making 'use' of grey water. I know the basics and want > more. But thank you for repeating the information. If someone sends for it > and finds it more useful than for just basics, let me know and I'll recant. > Sacie Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 27 09:53:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA03002 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 09:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27836; Wed, 27 May 1998 09:41:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 May 1998 09:37:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27260 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 09:36:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27236; Wed, 27 May 1998 09:36:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA71752; Wed, 27 May 1998 07:44:31 -0600 Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 07:44:31 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: jepthal@m2.sprynet.com Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: Re: stop all environmental progress In-Reply-To: <199805271336.GAA13509@m2.sprynet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3441 You said:"What would lead you to believe anything has changed? " ________________________________________________________________________ For one thing, the number of green buildings being built from strawbale, through rammed earth, to stress skin panels, from single family housing, through college campuses to office towers, both new and retrofit. I appreciate those efforts and all those who lead the way. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 27 11:10:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA06294 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 11:10:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02373; Wed, 27 May 1998 10:58:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 May 1998 10:54:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01546 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 10:53:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01536 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 10:53:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id L~V20700; Wed, 27 May 1998 11:00:47 EDT To: Terry@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:05:17 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Cutting boards Message-ID: <19980527.110521.6558.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-6,8-12 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3442 Hi, You asked where I read about the cutting boards - it was printed here on this list on May 12 or 13 of '97. The article was fully reprinted from "Science News" of February '93. The article cited research by microbiologists at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. If you would like a copy, send me your fax number and I will fax it to you. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 27 11:10:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA06301 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 11:10:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02386; Wed, 27 May 1998 10:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 May 1998 10:54:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01558 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 10:54:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01553 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 10:54:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id L~U20700; Wed, 27 May 1998 11:00:47 EDT To: dparker@alpha.fsec.ucf.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 10:56:30 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Daylighting for energy saving Message-ID: <19980527.110521.6558.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199803030137.UAA14097@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,8-17 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3443 Dan, Since your staff was helpful in my inquiry re light shelves, I am hoping that perhaps you might also know how to contact an energy consultant I read about. In the Jan/Feb '98 isssue of Environmental Design & Construction magazine they mentioned Alexander Othmer and an organization called Florida Energy Conservation Assistance Program (ECAP) but failed to give any contact number or address. Would you or your staff know how to contact this organization? Thanks for any help. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL (561) 852-4262 21000 Boca Rio Rd. A-27 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 27 11:10:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA06330 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 11:10:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02438; Wed, 27 May 1998 10:58:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 May 1998 10:54:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01584 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 10:54:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01576 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 10:54:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id L~T20700; Wed, 27 May 1998 11:00:47 EDT To: hlevin@cruzio.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 10:11:23 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: countertops-kitchen Message-ID: <19980527.110521.6558.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199805220038.RAA19540@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> <3.0.5.32.19980526205856.0096ba70@mail.cruzio.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-12 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3444 Dear Hal et al, In this particular instance, the sealer I mentioned is odorless, and non-toxic. The manufacturer claims it to be "safe enough to drink" though I didn't go so far as to test that. I have only used it on floors, but if it is as safe as they claim it should be safe for a counter. I would ask Mr. Ziegler for an MSDS before proceeding. Hope this works for you. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 27 13:51:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11400 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 13:51:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11573; Wed, 27 May 1998 13:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 May 1998 13:34:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA11069 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 13:34:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11065 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 13:33:58 -0400 (EDT) From: woodeneagle@juno.com Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id NVD01904; Wed, 27 May 1998 13:41:42 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 09:50:18 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: Small, spot HRV Message-ID: <19980527.095018.11750.0.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199805270600.CAA16129@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.23 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-7,9-11 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3445 Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > Has anyone found, tried or know about the above to dehumidify a small greenhouse > > (ie.100 SF) in a cold climate? Jorg: I heard of a company called Anderson Products somewhere in Newfoundland that sells a small HRV for about $500. Scott Waterman _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 27 20:41:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA25511 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 20:41:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA29208; Wed, 27 May 1998 20:29:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 May 1998 20:24:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA28502 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 20:24:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA28494 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 20:24:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA04061; Wed, 27 May 1998 17:31:29 -0700 Message-Id: <356CB098.70AC@arb.ca.gov> Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 17:32:24 -0700 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: CARB/Research Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "WALDMAN, JED" , "ROBERTS, JOHN" , "PARSLEY,THERESA" , "OSBORN, DON" , "MUDARRI, DAVID" , "LEVIN, HAL" , "GRIMSRUD, DAVID" , GREENBLDGLIST , "FUGLER, DON" <"dfugler"@cmhc-schl.gc.ca> (Don Fugler), "DAISEY,JOAN" , "BERNARD, ELIZABETH" , "BERGER, DAVID" Cc: "SPARK, BARBARA" , "SEXTRO, RICHARD" , brian.sehnert@smud.org Subject: GBlist: AB2432, green state bldgs. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3446 FYI: State assembly bill 2432, Bowen, re: "green" state buildings, went to the Senate. 5/22 Amendments shown below. See http://www.assembly.ca.gov/acs/acsframeset2text.htm for history and update. I don't know what positions of state agencies are yet, and what funding will be available to implement the bill (if any). BILL NUMBER: AB 2432 AMENDED BILL TEXT AMENDED IN ASSEMBLY MAY 22, 1998 AMENDED IN ASSEMBLY APRIL 28, 1998 AMENDED IN ASSEMBLY APRIL 13, 1998 INTRODUCED BY Assembly Member Bowen FEBRUARY 20, 1998 An act to add Section 14684 to amend Sections 15814.30, 15814.31, and 15814.34 of the Government Code, relating to state property. LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL'S DIGEST AB 2432, as amended, Bowen. State buildings: bids standards . Existing law requires all new state public buildings to be models of energy efficiency and to be designed, constructed, and equipped with all energy efficiency measures, materials, and devices that are feasible and cost-effective over the life of the building. Existing law also requires all state public buildings, when renovated or remodeled, to be retrofitted to meet specified building standards. The bill would provide that the Department of General Services, on or before January 1, 2000, shall require all design and architectural plans for the construction or renovation of state buildings that are used, in whole or in part, for state offices and are constructed by the state or in conjunction with any local or federal agency, government, or department, to include energy efficiency, recycled materials, and the conservation of public resources, when each of these features is determined to be feasible and cost-effective. This bill would require the department to calculate the long-term and short-term energy costs of the project, as specified, and to adopt appropriate regulations on or before July 15, 1999, to implement these provisions require all state public office buildings for which construction begins after January 1, 2000, that are used, in whole or in part for state offices to utilize green building measures, materials, and devices, as specified. The bill would also require that all existing state public buildings, when renovated or remodeled, be retrofitted to incorporate green building measures . Vote: majority. Appropriation: no. Fiscal committee: yes. State-mandated local program: no. THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS: SECTION 1. Section 14684 is added to the SECTION 1. Section 15814.30 of the Government Code is amended to read: 15814.30. (a) All new public buildings for which construction begins after January 1, 1993, shall be models of energy efficiency and shall be designed, constructed, and equipped with all energy efficiency measures, materials, and devices that are feasible and cost-effective over the life of the building or the life of the energy efficiency measure, whichever is less. (b) All public office buildings for which construction begins after January 1, 2000, that are used, in whole or in part, for state offices and that are constructed by the state with local, state, federal, or private funds or in conjunction with any local or federal agency, shall follow green building standards, as described in this subdivision, and be designed, constructed, and equipped with all green building measures, materials, and devices that are feasible and cost-effective over the life of the building or the life of the green building measure, whichever is less. Green building measures, materials, and devices shall include, but not be limited to, all of the following: (1) Water conservation measures in interior and exterior plumbing and landscaping. (2) Disposition, recycling, or limitation of construction and demolition waste. (3) Utilization of building materials that contain recycled materials that meet current building standards, including, but not limited to, recycled and recovered construction and demolition waste and recyclable carpets. (4) Utilization of alternative energy products. (5) Control of indoor air quality. (6) Interior office space access to natural daytime lighting. (7) Storage and collection of recyclable materials used by building occupants, including, but not limited to, beverage containers, aluminum, paper, and other materials. (8) Recharging or refueling opportunities for alternative fuel vehicles. (9) Designated parking for alternative fuel vehicles and carpool vehicles. (c) In determining which energy efficiency and green building measures, materials, and devices are feasible and cost-effective over the life of the building, the State Architect and the Department of General Services shall consult with the State Energy Resources Conservation and Development Commission. (c) (d) For purposes of this section, "cost-effective" means that savings generated over the life of the building or the life of the energy efficiency measure and green building measures , whichever is less, shall exceed the cost of purchasing and installing the energy efficiency and green building measures, materials, or devices by not less than 10 percent. SEC. 2. Section 15814.31 of the Government Code is amended to read: 15814.31. All existing public buildings, when renovated or remodeled, shall be retrofitted to meet the minimum standards, consistent with subdivision (d) of Section 2-5301 of Title 24 of the California Code of Regulations (California Building Code), established pursuant to Division 15 (commencing with Section 25000) of the Public Resources Code applicable to the building and shall also be retrofitted to incorporate green building measures as specified in subdivision (b) of Section 15814.30 . SEC. 3. Section 15814.34 of the Government Code is amended to read: 15814.34. (a) The Legislature finds and declares all of the following: (1) The state purchases a number of commodities, including, but not limited to, lighting fixtures, heating, ventilation and air-conditioning units, and copiers, that cumulatively account for a significant portion of the energy consumed by state operations. (2) The state can realize significant energy savings and reduced energy costs by purchasing brands or models of commonly used commodities with low life cycle costs. (3) Commodities necessary for state operations may be purchased directly by the state department or agency using the commodity, or may be purchased by the Department of General Services on behalf of other state departments or agencies. (4) In order to increase energy efficiency , promote green building standards as specified in subdivision (b) of Section 15814.30, and reduce costs to the taxpayers of the state, the state should make every reasonable effort to identify and purchase those commodities that have the lowest life cycle cost , contain recycled materials, and meet the operational requirements of the state. (b) The Department of General Services shall, on an ongoing basis, do all of the following: (1) Identify commodities purchased by the department that, individually or on a statewide basis, consume a significant amount of energy. (2) For each commodity identified pursuant to paragraph (1), determine the life cycle cost of the following: (A) The brand or model of the commodity purchased by the department. (B) The brand or model of the commodity that has the lowest life cycle cost, provided it is available for purchase by the state and meets all operational specifications of the state. (3) Consult with the Energy Resources Conservation and Development Commission in the development and revision of one or more methods of determining the life cycle costs of commodities. (c) In order to assist other agencies and departments in identifying commodities with the lowest life cycle costs, the Department of General Services shall distribute the following to all state agencies and departments: (1) A list of those commodities with the lowest life cycle costs, as determined pursuant to paragraph (2) of subdivision (b). (2) The method or methods used by the Department of General Services to determine the life cycle costs of commodities. (d) The method or methods used by the Department of General Services to calculate the life cycle costs of commodities shall be designed to be easily understood and used by purchasing agents and other personnel in making purchasing decisions. (e) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, all state agencies and departments shall purchase those commodities identified pursuant to subdivision (b) that have the lowest life cycle costs and that meet the applicable specifications, and shall make every reasonable effort to identify and purchase other commodities with the lowest life cycle costs. (f) "Life cycle cost" for the purposes of this section, means the total cost of purchasing, installing, maintaining, and operating a device or system during its reasonably expected life. It includes, but is not necessarily limited to, capital costs, labor costs, energy costs, and operating and maintenance costs. _____________________________________ All matter omitted in this version of the bill appears in the bill as amended in the Assembly, April 28, 1998 (JR 11) ____________________________________ -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 27 21:33:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA27441 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA01590; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 May 1998 21:17:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA01268 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA01264 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:16:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11977 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:25:11 -0400 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-44-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.44]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA04610 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980527212218.006a35c4@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:22:18 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: small single-rooom, through-the-wall HRV In-Reply-To: <199805270600.CAA16129@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3447 > >Has anyone found, tried or know about the above to dehumidify a small greenhouse >(ie.100 SF) in a cold climate? Jorg Ostrowski VanEE, now Venmar has in their catalogu the "1000 Thruwall Series" which might meet your needs. The number in my VanEE catalogue is 800-667-3717. I am guessing it's the same number now that they are VenMar, although I think they got bought by Broan or someone like that.... If that number doesn't work, let me know. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT 05602 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 27 21:53:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA28039 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:53:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA02760; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:41:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 May 1998 21:37:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA02094 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:36:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02090 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.9] (blf9.acadia.net [205.217.217.9]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA27130 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:45:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:45:15 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: GREEN/HEALTHY BLDGS. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3448 Seconds to Tom Phillips' post about Swedish Building Research, the magazine from the Swedish Council for Building Research (Byggforsk). We've been receiving it for several years. It's thin in and of itself, but it references many good reports, many of which are in English. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 27 21:53:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA28062 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:53:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA02758; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:41:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 May 1998 21:37:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA02111 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:36:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02102 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.9] (blf9.acadia.net [205.217.217.9]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA27138 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 21:45:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 21:45:19 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Re: Extending rubble trenches Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3449 If the extension is more or less perpendicular to the existing rubble trench, you can drive a sheet piling against the existing trench, at the point where the new trench intersects the old. A sheet piling is not dirty laundry on the floor, it's a piece of corrugated steel plate driven into the ground to the depth of the trench. It would have to be wider than the new trench - otherwise, when you excavated, the existing rubble would still spill out. This may be the problem with John Straube's concrete pier idea. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed May 27 22:19:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA28863 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 22:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA04289; Wed, 27 May 1998 22:07:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 May 1998 22:03:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA04005 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 May 1998 22:03:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03996 for ; Wed, 27 May 1998 22:03:42 -0400 (EDT) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 15222 invoked by uid 0); 28 May 1998 02:13:20 -0000 Received: from ppp-17.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.211?) (198.175.11.211) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 28 May 1998 02:13:20 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:18:57 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: small single-rooom, through-the-wall HRV Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3450 _________________________________________________________________________ > Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 08:17:50 -0600 (MDT) > From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" > Subject: GBlist: small single-rooom, through-the-wall HRV > > Has anyone found, tried or know about the above to dehumidify a small > greenhouse > (ie.100 SF) in a cold climate? Jorg Ostrowski > ______________________________________________________________________ Jorg, I have no experience using these, but John Bower's book "The Healthy House" lists three makers of small HRV's, two of which are through-the-wall. I've found this book and other's put out by The Healthy House Institute very informative. Their website is: http:// www.hhinst.com The HRV's: Stirling Technologies, Inc 800-535-3448 or 614-594-2277 Thermax 800-929-0682 or 609-466-8800 Altech Energy 800-627-4499 or 608-221-4499 I called Stirling and Thermax for more information and I believe Stirling's model was being revamped and was not currently available. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 28 00:40:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA03552 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 00:40:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA07945; Thu, 28 May 1998 00:28:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 28 May 1998 00:24:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA07692 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 28 May 1998 00:23:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from entoo.connect.com.au (entoo.connect.com.au [192.189.54.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07688 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 00:23:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from drake (acc9-ppp30.mel.enternet.com.au [210.8.9.30]) by entoo.connect.com.au with ESMTP id OAA14195 (8.8.6/IDA-1.7 for ); Thu, 28 May 1998 14:32:00 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <199805280432.OAA14195@entoo.connect.com.au> From: "Jarrett Drake" To: Subject: GBlist: Friendly Building Materials Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:25:07 +1000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3451 G'Day all, As a student at university in Melbourne,Australia I am doing a study on ecological building practices, I would like to put together a reasonably comprehensive booklet on building materials. I have noticed that there is a lot of information out there on the web about various environmentally friendly materials, but I have yet to see anything which looks at all building materials - conventional and alternative. Also I have not seen much in the way of information on my part of the world. I would like to compile a list of materials used in building which begins with raw materials (wood, metal, petroleum, straw, earth, etc) and how they are used, and then goes on to list composite materials. For each material I would like to discuss how it is used, where it comes from, what it's strengths and weaknesses are for common uses, what it's environmental effects are, how long it will last, what alternatives are available, etc. Thanks, Jarrett Drake - drakey@mail.enternet.com.au ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 28 09:08:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA19195 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 09:08:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA20460; Thu, 28 May 1998 08:56:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 28 May 1998 08:51:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20162 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 28 May 1998 08:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.42]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20157 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 08:50:48 -0400 (EDT) From: DAEly@aol.com Received: from DAEly@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1ABSa09805 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 08:58:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <52baeb35.356d5f74@aol.com> Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 08:58:27 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: rubble trenches Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3452 On 5-26 Speireag wrote, "So how do you contain the foundation, *before* you dig? And if you can't do that, then what are the alternatives?" I've done a couple of additions to buildings with rubble foundations. My best advice is DON'T dig out around it if you can avoid it. I recommend putting a foundation wall parallel to the rubble wall, 12' or 14' out, or whatever dimension you need, and run your framing perpemdicular to the rubble foundation. Of course you will need to determine that the existing rubble foundation will take the additional weight of the new construction. If you must dig out around the rubble, be sure to support the existing framing with temporary posts and beams just in case. If you start to loose the rubble, you could "chase" it many feet before regaining control. Good Luck!! David Ely, Architect New Boston, NH ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 28 10:04:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA21849 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 10:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23702; Thu, 28 May 1998 09:52:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 28 May 1998 09:46:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23244 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 28 May 1998 09:46:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA23240 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 09:46:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.37] (ua4.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.37]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA19585 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 09:54:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:04:12 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: rammed earth Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3453 Hi folks, I'm looking for someone who is doing rammed earth walls in the central new york area. Anyone know anyone?? - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 28 10:25:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22791 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 10:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24851; Thu, 28 May 1998 10:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 28 May 1998 10:07:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24411 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 28 May 1998 10:07:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24406 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 10:07:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KAU20700; Thu, 28 May 1998 10:14:52 EDT To: envdiv@earthlink.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 10:19:18 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Re: Laquer Message-ID: <19980528.101920.6630.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199805272228.PAA02612@italy.it.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,7-8,10-16 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3454 Michelle, Since most products off-gas at 3-6 mos, you should not have a problem. Generally, the majority of off-gassing occurs in the first 90 days and the balance (in the 10-20% range) over the balance of the period. In addition, you say you plan to enclose it so the remainder should be harmless. To be sure, ask the manufacturer for the MSDS and that should indicate the curing period. Thanks for the article. I enjoyed reading it. It looks like this would be a good magazine for me to get on a regular basis. How do I subscribe? Thanks again. Beverly Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 28 11:43:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA27757 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 11:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28436; Thu, 28 May 1998 11:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 28 May 1998 11:26:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27971 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 28 May 1998 11:25:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27966 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 11:25:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from drucker.niehs.nih.gov (drucker.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.15.129]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA31987 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 11:33:47 -0400 Received: by drucker.niehs.nih.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Thu, 28 May 1998 11:33:45 -0400 Message-ID: <8DD3D27DC6A5D111823200A0C955FB401684A1@drucker.niehs.nih.gov> From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: GBlist: FW humor: dam letters Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 11:33:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3455 i couldn't NOT send this to my GB friends...a little long but definitely of interest to some olivia > ---------- > From: Ney.Elizabeth > Sent: Thursday, May 28, 1998 11:09 AM > To: 'Humor' > Subject: FW: dam letters > > > >The following two letters are purported to be legitimate. If not, > they're > > >worth a grin anyway: > > >-------------- > > >The following is an actual letter and the reply to the Michigan > > Department > > >of Environmental Quality. > > > > > > >State of Michigan > > > Reply To: Grand Rapids District Office > > > State Office Building 6th Floor > > > 350 Ottawa NW > > > Grand Rapids MI 49503-2341 > > > > > >John Engler, Governor > > >Department Of Environmental Quality > > >Hollister Building, PO Box 30473, > > >Lansing MI 48909-7973 > > > > > >Russell J. Harding, Director > > >December 17, 1997 > > > > > >CERTIFIED > > > > > > Mr. Ryan DeVries > > > 2088 Dagget > > > Pierson, MI 49339 > > > > > > Dear Mr. DeVries: > > > > > > SUBJECT: DEQ File No. 97-59-0023-1 T11N, R10W, Sec. 20, Montcalm > > >County > > > > > >It has come to the attention of the Department of Environmental Quality > > >that there has been recent unauthorized activity on the above > referenced > > >parcel of property. You have been certified as the legal landowner > and/or > > >contractor who did the following unauthorized activity: > > >Construction and maintenance of two wood debris dams across the > > >outlet stream of Spring Pond. A permit must be issued prior to the > start > > of > > >this type of activity. A review of the Department's files shows that > no > > >permits have been issued. > > >Therefore, the Department has determined that this activity is in > > violation > > >of Part 301, Inland Lakes and Streams, of the Natural Resource and > > >Environmental Protection Act, Act 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being > > >sections 324.30101 to 324.30113 of the Michigan Compiled Laws, > > >annotated. The Department has been informed that one or both of the > > >dams partially failed during a recent rain event, causing debris and > > >flooding at downstream locations. We find that dams of this nature are > > >inherently hazardous and cannot be permitted. The Department therefore > > >orders you to cease and desist all unauthorized activities at this > > location, > > >and to restore the stream to a free-flow condition by removing all wood > > >and brush forming the dams from the strewn channel. All restoration > > >work shall be completed no later than January 31, 1998. > > > > > >Please notify this office when the restoration has been completed so > > >that a follow-up site inspection may be scheduled by our staff. Failure > > >to comply with this request or any further unauthorized activity on the > > >site may result in this case being referred for elevated enforcement > > >action. We anticipate and would appreciate your full cooperation in > this > > >matter. Please feel free to contact me at this office if you have any > > >questions. > > >Sincerely, > > >David L. Price > > >District Representative > > >Land and Water Management Division > > > > > > > >----Reply Letter---- > > >Dear Mr. Price: > > >Re: DEQ File No. 97-59-0023; T11N, R10W, Sec 20; Montcalm County > > > > > >Your certified letter dated 12/17/97 has been handed to me to respond > > >to. You sent out a great deal of carbon copies to a lot of people, but > > >you neglected to include their addresses. You will, therefore, have to > > >send them a copy of my response. > > > > > >First of all, Mr. Ryan DeVries is not the legal landowner and/or > > contractor > > >at 2088 Dagget, Pierson, Michigan - I am the legal owner and a couple > of > > >beavers are in the (State unauthorized) process of constructing and > > >maintaining two wood "debris" dams across the outlet stream of my > > >Spring Pond. While I did not pay for, nor authorize their dam project, > I > > think > > >they would be highly offended you call their skillful use of natural > > building > > >materials "debris." I would like to challenge you to attempt to emulate > > their > > >dam project any dam time and/or any dam place you choose. I believe I > > >can safely state there is no dam way you could ever match their dam > > >skills, their dam resourcefulness, their dam ingenuity, their dam > > >persistence, their dam determination and/or their dam work ethic. > > > > > >As to your dam request the beavers first must fill out a dam permit > prior > > to > > >the start of this type of dam activity, my first dam question to you > is: > > are > > >you trying to discriminate against my Spring Pond Beavers or do you > > >require all dam beavers throughout this State to conform to said dam > > >request? If you are not discriminating against these particular > beavers, > > >please send me completed copies of all those other applicable beaver > > >dam permits. Perhaps we will see if there really is a dam violation of > > Part > > >301, Inland lakes and Streams, of the Natural Resource and > Environmental > > >Protection Act, Act 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being > > >sections 324.30101 to 324.30113 of the Michigan Compiled Laws > > >annotated. > > >My first concern is - aren't the dam beavers entitled to dam legal > > >representation? The Spring Pond Beavers are financially destitute and > are > > >unable to pay for said dam representation - so the State will have to > > >provide them with a dam lawyer. The Department's dam concern that > > >either one or both of the dams failed during a recent rain event > causing > > >dam flooding is proof we should leave the dam Spring Pond Beavers > > >alone rather than harassing them and calling their dam names. If you > > >want the dam stream "restored" to a dam free-flow condition - contact > > >the dam beavers - but if you are going to arrest them (they obviously > did > > >not pay any dam attention to your dam letter-being unable to read > > English) > > >- be sure you read them their dam Miranda rights first. > > >As for me, I am not going to cause more dam flooding or dam debris jams > > >by interfering with these dam builders. If you want to hurt these dam > > >beavers - be aware I am sending a copy of your dam letter and this > > >response to PETA. If your dam Department seriously finds all dams of > this > > >nature inherently hazardous and truly will not permit their existence > in > > this > > >dam State - I seriously hope you are not selectively enforcing this dam > > >policy - or once again both I and the Spring Pond Beavers will scream > > >prejudice! > > > > > >In my humble opinion, the Spring Pond Beavers have a right to build > their > > >dam unauthorized dams as long as the sky is blue, the grass is green > and > > >water flows downstream. They have more dam right than I to live and > > >enjoy Spring Pond. So, as far as the beavers and I are concerned, this > > >dam case can be referred for more dam elevated enforcement action > > >now. Why wait until 1/31/98? The Spring Pond Beavers may be under the > > >dam ice then and there will be no dam way for you or your dam staff to > > >contact/harass them then. > > >In conclusion, I would like to bring to your attention a real > > environmental > > >quality (health) problem; bears are actually defecating in our woods. I > > >definitely believe you should be persecuting the defecating bears and > > >leave the dam beavers alone. If you are going to investigate the beaver > > >dam, watch your step! (The bears are not careful where they dump!) > > >Being unable to comply with your dam request, and being unable to > > >contact you on your dam answering machine, I am sending this response > > >to your dam office. > > >Sincerely, > > >Stephen L. Tvedten > > >Ride 'em, > > >Cowboy > > >"Predictably Unpredictable & Relentlessly Persistent" > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 28 12:09:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA28660 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 12:09:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29658; Thu, 28 May 1998 11:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 28 May 1998 11:53:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29318 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 28 May 1998 11:53:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29313 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 11:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mbay152.cruzio.com (mbay152.cruzio.com [165.227.93.152]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id JAA19546; Thu, 28 May 1998 09:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980528085847.00921100@mail.cruzio.com> X-Sender: hlevin@mail.cruzio.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 08:58:47 -0700 To: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) From: Hal Levin Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Laquer Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <19980528.101920.6630.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199805272228.PAA02612@italy.it.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3456 Beverly: Seems like a bit of a dangerous over-generalization - "...most products off-gas at 3-6 mos..." While your statement may be true about lacquer, I would encourage a more cautioius statement that is limited to products which you know complete their off-gassing in that time frame. There are some that do most of their off-gassing much more quickly, for example, alkyd paints, and others that off-gass more slowly, for example, latex paints which can emit measurably for a year or more. Then there are products like composite-wood products (particleboard, etc.) that go on off-gassing for years. It depends a lot on the matrix or substrate to which a paint or coating is applied. The more porous the substrate, the more absorption or penetration and, therefore, the longer the off-gassing period. It also depends on the thickness of the coating, the number of coats, and environmental conditions to which the product is exposed. Finally, it depends on the nature of the drying or curing process which varies greatly among products. MSDSs are not always reliable nor are they as detailed or product-specific as I would like them to be. I have seen many that are simply inaccurate, particularly those that claim "no VOCs" when they are using the Clean Air Act definition of VOCs which exempts non-reactive VOCS. Many non-reactive VOCs are important for indoor air, especially through chemical reactions with other substances in the air. Furthermore, I have not seen MSDSs that indicate "curing period." Some product data sheets ("cut sheets" in the architectural vernacular) do state the curing time or drying time or time required before further coats are applied or surfaces are walked on or used. However, testing done by me and by others has shown that this time period has little or nothing to do with the duration of measurable emissions. Many if not most surface coatings "skin" over on the surface exposed to the air before the reservoir of solvent (water is also a solvent in some products) has "cured." Curing is a different process in different products. It may be by evaporation, cross linking, chemical reactions of various sorts. Do not confuse the stated drying time or curing time with the end of emissions. Although drying or curing time will indicate a significant amount of evaporation or chemical transformation, there simply is not a clear relationship to the end of emissions. . Hal At 10:19 AM 5/28/98 -0700, Beverly wrote: >Michelle, > >Since most products off-gas at 3-6 mos, you should not have a problem. >Generally, the majority of off-gassing occurs in the first 90 days and >the balance (in the 10-20% range) over the balance of the period. In >addition, you say you plan to enclose it so the remainder should be >harmless. To be sure, ask the manufacturer for the MSDS and that should >indicate the curing period. [snip] >Beverly >Environs Interiors >Boca Raton, FL > Hal Levin 2548 Empire Grade, Santa Cruz, CA 95060 408 425 3946 fax 408 426 6522 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu May 28 15:05:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA06339 for ; Thu, 28 May 1998 15:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09448; Thu, 28 May 1998 14:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 28 May 1998 14:48:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08857 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 28 May 1998 14:48:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08851; Thu, 28 May 1998 14:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA05058; Thu, 28 May 1998 12:55:35 -0600 Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 12:55:35 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Strawbale Listserver Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Re: OFFLIST: stop all environmental progress In-Reply-To: <001801bd8a67$a84c7710$0faf57cc@yasmiin> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3457 Anyone who has further facts on the above please contact me privately so we do not offend others who may be tired of a very important topic. Thank you to all who have aired their views and opinions. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 29 08:58:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA11672 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 08:58:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12316; Fri, 29 May 1998 08:46:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 May 1998 08:41:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12002 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 08:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA11998 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 08:41:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek (sa4-p50.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.178]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA24934 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 08:50:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <356EAD9A.43CD@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 08:44:10 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: N2O Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3458 >From the NYTIMES: " The EPA study also showed that nitrous oxide is one of a few gases for which emissions are increasing rapidly. Collectively known as greenhouse gases, they trap heat in the earth's atmosphere. The increase in nitrous oxide, the study notes, stems from the growth in the number of miles traveled by cars that have catalytic converters. And the problem has worsened as improvements in catalytic converters, changes that have eliminated more of the nitrogen-oxygen compounds that cause smog, have conversely produced more nitrous oxide. Wylie J. Barbour, an EPA official who worked on the recently published inventory, said that the problem created by the converter is classic. "You've got people trying to solve one problem, and as is not uncommon, they've created another." Nitrous oxide, or N2O, is not regulated because the Clean Air Act was written in 1970 to control smog, not global warming. And no regulations exist to control gases that are believed to cause global warming." http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/cars-pollute.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 29 09:11:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12169 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 09:11:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12894; Fri, 29 May 1998 08:59:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 May 1998 08:55:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12654 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 08:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12650 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 08:55:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek (sa4-p50.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.178]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA28647 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 09:03:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <356EB0CB.773C@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 08:57:47 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: N2O Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3459 Two further quotes from the same article that seem to sum up the problem: Cadle, of General Motors would not go that far. But, he said, "You have to be holistic and try and look at everything, which is obviously difficult." "It's like, clean is not green," said Sheila Lynch, executive director of the Northeast Alternative Vehicle Coalition, a public-private partnership that encourages non-traditional power sources. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 29 09:56:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13560 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 09:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14625; Fri, 29 May 1998 09:44:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 May 1998 09:40:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14201 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 09:40:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14196; Fri, 29 May 1998 09:40:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 9KDNa22588; Fri, 29 May 1998 09:47:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <768748e0.356ebc8e@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 09:47:57 EDT To: iaq@onelist.com, ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, CHECNET-FORUM@checnet.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: NIDR Technical Seminar to cover "BSD" Phenomenon Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3460 Good Morning - This morning a friend faxed me the info on a NIDR Technical Seminar on "Testing" which will include subject matter and speakers on "BSD" or Black Soot Deposition Phenomenon sample collection, testing, toxins & contaminants, & evaluating damage. The deadline to register is June 1st (sorry, I just found out about it myself) Here are the what, where, when & how much - What: NIDR Technical "Testing" Seminar June 26 & 27, 1998 Where: Vancouver, British Columbia Cost: $259 ASCR Members $359 Non-Members (if registration is received by June 5th - $309 & $409 if after) Call: 301-604-4411 for more info FAX# 301-604-4713 For Hotel Reservations call: 1-800-WESTIN1 or 604-682-3377 (Some of the speakers are experts in the IAQ field that many will be familiar with.) Have a nice week-end. :c) Regards, Cathy Flanders Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://members.tripod.com/~rkfabf/index.html IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 29 10:27:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14485 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 10:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15921; Fri, 29 May 1998 10:15:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 May 1998 10:11:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15657 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 10:11:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15651 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 10:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust2.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.2]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id JAA22601; Fri, 29 May 1998 09:17:54 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <356EC437.1236@gte.net> Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:20:39 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: [Fwd: Corporations Acknowledge Global Warming] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------212B7A6F6FD5" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3461 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------212B7A6F6FD5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jorg, On the other side of the coin, here's a list of large companies that are taking climate change seriously and are pushing their government's to do the same. Cindy Pollock Shea --------------212B7A6F6FD5 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from relay2.mailsrvcs.net ([192.168.129.41]) by mta1.mailsrvcs.net (InterMail v03.02.04 118 119) with ESMTP id <19980514103551.EEJN4470@relay2.mailsrvcs.net> for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 05:35:51 -0500 Received: from mlist.ucsd.edu (mlist.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.48]) by relay2.mailsrvcs.net with ESMTP id FAA18993 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 05:35:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mailbox1.ucsd.edu (mailbox1.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.53]) by mlist.ucsd.edu (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA23390 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 03:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by mailbox1.ucsd.edu (8.8.8/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA25969 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 03:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from .uga.edu (user-38lc8sc.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.35.140]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA04205 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 06:25:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <001301bd7f22$bf2c2980$8c2356d1@.uga.edu> Reply-To: "Bill Sheehan" From: "Bill Sheehan" To: "GreenYes" Subject: Corporations Acknowledge Global Warming Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 03:52:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 [Forwarded from Sierra Club listserve. Should be just a small step to support design for recyclability, right? --Bill Sheehan] 13 Corporations Join in Ad on Global Warming Principles QUESTION: What do we all agree on? ANSWER: Taking on the challenge of global climate change. So says a 2/3 page add in today's (5/13/98) edition of the Washington Post. Signed by 13 major corporations, including Toyota, Maytag, American Electric Power, Boeing, US Generating Company, British Petroleum, Intercontinental Energy Corporation, 3M, Sunoco, Lockheed Martin, United Technologies, Enron, and Whirlpool, the ad argues that we must begin to address global warming today. The companies are working together through the Pew Center on Global Climate Change to "respond to global climate change while maintaining economic growth." The companies have agreed to several statements of principle on the issue. They include an acceptance of the science of global warming, and that action is justified. They also urge other businesses to reduce pollution, and invest in more efficient products, practices and technologies. They argue that by adopting reasonable policies, programs and transition strategies, the US can make significant progress in addressing climate change and sustaining economic growth. The one negative the group supports is an increased reliance on pollution trading. In the context of global warming, pollution trading is often advocated as a cheap way of achieving pollution reductions overseas rather than adopting new technology here at home. In reality such schemes are hard to monitor, harder to enforce, and could actually lead to an increase in pollution. --------------212B7A6F6FD5-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 29 10:38:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14832 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 10:38:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16598; Fri, 29 May 1998 10:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 May 1998 10:22:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16131 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 10:22:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16127 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 10:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KDM20700; Fri, 29 May 1998 10:28:46 EDT To: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:19:32 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Daylighting for energy saving Message-ID: <19980529.103315.6566.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <1.5.4.32.19980528224412.006a1100@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,5-6,13-14,16-24 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3462 Sacie, This particular application involves an entire floor of an existing building. I cannot add exterior light shelves, since this is a lease space, but I understand there is a way to create interior light shelves. The building is a square , concrete and glass, and oriented on a 45 degree axis (ne,sw...). It's sister building is on the east side blocking some of the hot east sun so the only side I foresee not using daylight is the mostly west windows. Those will be reserved for testing and labs where there is a need for shade anyway. The rest will be reception, insurance, treatment rooms and cafeteria. Waiting and storage will be in the inner core. If you or any others have suggestions I would be appreciative - perhaps some sources for interior light shelf design. Thanks Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL Fax: (561)852-4663 _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 29 10:38:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14839 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 10:38:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16582; Fri, 29 May 1998 10:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 May 1998 10:22:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16121 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 10:21:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16117 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 10:21:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KDN20700; Fri, 29 May 1998 10:28:46 EDT To: hlevin@cruzio.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:33:13 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Re: Laquer Message-ID: <19980529.103315.6566.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199805272228.PAA02612@italy.it.earthlink.net> <3.0.5.32.19980528085847.00921100@mail.cruzio.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,10-11,14,16-17,19-23 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3463 Hal et al, While I agree with you that my answer was over generalized, in my defense I had little to go on and I was just trying to address the specific question based on generalized input. I agree with you as well that each case and each material is different in outgassing rate. One example I usually give in my seminars is vinyl wallcovering and flooring - both of which have extended outgassing rates, as opposed to a number of flooring adhesives that have a rapid outgassing rate of less than 24 hours. Since I am not a research scientist, as you are obviously, I generally have to rely on my own experience in many cases and the research of others in remaining cases. As a humble single-practitioner interior designer I have little luxury of spare time for much more. Once again, applolgies if the answer seemed less than in-depth, but we do our best. Beverly Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 29 12:34:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA19952 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 12:34:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21699; Fri, 29 May 1998 12:21:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 May 1998 12:17:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21250 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 12:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21241 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 12:17:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id LAA0000026706; Fri, 29 May 1998 11:25:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980529162804.006ab51c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 11:28:04 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Concealed Fastener Metal Roof Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3464 I've learned of the availability of two concealed fastener metal roof panels manufacturers. One made by Metal Sales Inc is a concealed clip system with snap on battens, the other is by American Bldg Components has a slightly different system. Has anyone had experience with either of these? Are there other good similar products out there? Something to watch out for? Sacie Lambertson An aside here: some of my questions, and others', are more suited to a plain ole building discussion than to this green bdg list, but the one I know of does not have the same format and is less likely to be responsive. However, it can be good if you search its archives for specific topics: sponsored by FHB magazine, the address is: http://www.taunton.com/breaktime/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 29 12:45:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20507 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 12:45:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22550; Fri, 29 May 1998 12:32:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 May 1998 12:29:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22137 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 12:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eypdc04.eypae.com (eypdc04.eypae.com [205.234.22.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22132 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 12:28:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by eypdc04.eypae.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Fri, 29 May 1998 12:38:15 -0400 Message-ID: <7149413C9A5AD01182DC0060971991CE9061C3@eypdc04.eypae.com> From: Peggy White To: greenbuilding@crest.org, "David F. Lambertson" Subject: RE: GBlist: Concealed Fastener Metal Roof Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:38:14 -0400 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD8AFE.A67BCF20" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3465 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD8AFE.A67BCF20 Content-Type: text/plain We've used both manufacturers in the work that our firm does - I'm a spec writer at a large A/E/I firm on the east coast. There are no significant differences in the products - but you'll want to check the warranties to see if they provide what you want. In our product research here, we've found that the Web has become a significant resource for manufacturer information. Here are some search engines for construction products that might be useful. Peggy White Einhorn Yaffee Prescott Washington, DC > ---------- > From: David F. Lambertson[SMTP:dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu] > Sent: Friday, May 29, 1998 12:28 PM > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: Concealed Fastener Metal Roof > > I've learned of the availability of two concealed fastener metal roof > panels > manufacturers. One made by Metal Sales Inc is a concealed clip system > with > snap on battens, the other is by American Bldg Components has a > slightly > different system. Has anyone had experience with either of these? > Are > there other good similar products out there? Something to watch out > for? > Sacie Lambertson > > An aside here: some of my questions, and others', are more suited to a > plain > ole building discussion than to this green bdg list, but the one I > know of > does not have the same format and is less likely to be responsive. > However, > it can be good if you search its archives for specific topics: > sponsored by > FHB magazine, the address is: http://www.taunton.com/breaktime/ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD8AFE.A67BCF20 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="First Source Online.url" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="First Source Online.url" Content-Description: First Source Online [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.afsonl.com/ ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD8AFE.A67BCF20 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="ConstructionNet Search for Construction Prod..url" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="ConstructionNet Search for Construction Prod..url" Content-Description: ConstructionNet Search for Construction Prod. [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.constructionnet.net/manu_search/const_prods.shtml ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD8AFE.A67BCF20 Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="AEC InfoCenter Building Products.url" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="AEC InfoCenter Building Products.url" Content-Description: AEC InfoCenter Building Products [InternetShortcut] URL=http://www.aecinfo.com/bpl/index.html ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD8AFE.A67BCF20-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 29 13:49:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA23072 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:49:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25858; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:37:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 May 1998 13:32:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25375 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25370 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:32:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.109] (ub12.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.109]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA18369 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:41:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <356EC437.1236@gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:47:42 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: [Fwd: Corporations Acknowledge Global Warming] Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3466 >Jorg, > >On the other side of the coin, here's a list of large companies that are >taking climate change seriously and are pushing their government's to do >the same. > >Cindy Pollock Shea Thanks Cindy, - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 29 13:49:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA23082 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25901; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:37:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 May 1998 13:33:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25417 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:33:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25406 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 13:33:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mbay152.cruzio.com (mbay152.cruzio.com [165.227.93.152]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id KAA21818; Fri, 29 May 1998 10:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Hal Levin" To: "Beverly A. Weiter" Cc: "Greenbuilding listserv" Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: Laquer Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 10:37:37 -0700 Message-ID: <000901bd8b28$78a3df00$985de3a5@mbay152.cruzio.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <19980529.103315.6566.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3467 Beverly et al: This message is part of precisely the kind of dialogue that gets me in trouble - makes me feel bad, and keeps me from responding to posts that contain misleading or incorrect information. To avoid these feelings, I have refrained from posting to the list for almost a year now until my recent post leading to Beverly's reply below. I apologize to those who think I am too critical or not tactful enough. Recently I have been replying off-list when I saw a post to which I thought I could usefully respond. Some listers have written back that they miss my posts. So, here goes. Beverly: Thank you for your reply. I can appreciate that you were doing what you could with limited input. Now you have made a comment about adhesives that requires a further discussion. You say that "...a number of flooring adhesives ...have a rapid outgassing rate of less than 24 hours." First of all, 24 hours is not an "outgassing rate." I am guessing (based on our prior communication) that you mean the outgassing process will be virtually completed in 24 hours. An outgassing rate would be expressed in mass per unit area per unit time (milligrams per square meter per hour). Assuming I am right that you do mean the time to complete outgassing is 24 hours, I must ask if you have emissions test data that shows that "a number of flooring adhesives" complete their outgassing in 24 hours? I find such short "outgassing periods" incredibly hard to believe and would very much like to find such an adhesive. Inherently, in order to work, adhesives must interact with the substrate below and with the floor covering above them. These sorts of interactions (adsorption, absorption, physico-chemical bonding, and/or chemical reactions) usually result in longer "curing" times. Substrates like wood and concrete are very absorptive materials, especially for water and other solvents. Furthermore, the floor covering itself acts as an imperfect barrier, its efficacy being a function of the permeability and thickness of the material. So, emissions continue to move through the floor covering, but controlled by diffusion, not by evaporation. Diffusion processes are generally far slower than evaporative ones. If you have data on 24 hour emissions for adhesives, please share them with all of us. I am only guessing that such an adhesive would be widely welcomed in the "green" building community. Hopefully the rapid emissions would not be the result of using some very nasty solvent that would actually make it an undesirable product, at least in occupied buildings. Beverly, I know your intentions were good in posting what you did to the listserv. However, I believe it is a disservice to give advice without having the facts. I think reacting to a specific item with a generalization is likely to produce the kinds of misleading responses that can create confusion and myth. There is far too much of that in the indoor air quality field, even among those who are less modest about their scientific or professional credentials. Whether a building scientist or a building design professional, it is important to be certain of your facts - especially if you are giving advice or information by posting on a listserv or teaching seminars where readers or students assume you are in command of the facts. Responsible professionals who do not have the facts should contact ones who do. I am not a scientist. Whatever science I know, I have learned by extending my work day and reading and by talking to those who are scientists and who do understand things I don't understand. I was trained as an architect and was working as a designer and builder until hired to teach and do research at an architecture school (UC Berkeley) in 1978. I have been working as a consultant and researcher in indoor air quality since that time. What I have learned is that the subject of indoor air quality is extremely complex and that simple answers (which so many people seek) are usually wrong. Please forgive my rant. However, I feel pretty strongly about the dissemination of myth in the indoor air field. It does more to constrain progress than the little bit of knowledge we have can do to overcome it. And commercial interests are constantly ready to pounce on myth and market on its basis. We must be careful about our facts. People's health often depends on it. Hal Levin hlevin@cruzio.com 2548 Empire Grade, Santa Cruz, CA 95060 408 425 3946 fax 408 426 6522 -----Original Message----- From: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org [mailto:owner-greenbuilding@crest.org] On Behalf Of Beverly A. Weiter Sent: Friday, May 29, 1998 10:33 AM To: hlevin@cruzio.com; greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Laquer Hal et al, While I agree with you that my answer was over generalized, in my defense I had little to go on and I was just trying to address the specific question based on generalized input. I agree with you as well that each case and each material is different in outgassing rate. One example I usually give in my seminars is vinyl wallcovering and flooring - both of which have extended outgassing rates, as opposed to a number of flooring adhesives that have a rapid outgassing rate of less than 24 hours. Since I am not a research scientist, as you are obviously, I generally have to rely on my own experience in many cases and the research of others in remaining cases. As a humble single-practitioner interior designer I have little luxury of spare time for much more. Once again, applolgies if the answer seemed less than in-depth, but we do our best. Beverly Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 29 14:42:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA24997 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 14:42:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28382; Fri, 29 May 1998 14:29:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 May 1998 14:25:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27980 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 14:24:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27976 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 14:24:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA112132; Fri, 29 May 1998 12:31:19 -0600 Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:31:18 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "David F. Lambertson" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Concealed Fastener Metal Roof In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980529162804.006ab51c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3468 You said:"Are there other good similar products out there? _______________________________________________________________________ Sacie: "Snap-Lok" by Westman Steel Industries (403) 292-7777. If appropriate, talk to Paul Martin. Transportation costs and embodied energy would make the Canadian product not appropriate for your application. Jorg ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 29 14:54:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA25403 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 14:54:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29488; Fri, 29 May 1998 14:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 May 1998 14:37:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28988 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 14:37:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from graytwo.jngray.com (graytwo.jngray.com [207.201.192.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28983 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 14:37:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by graytwo.jngray.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Fri, 29 May 1998 14:44:26 -0400 Message-ID: From: David Vickers To: "'Jorg D. Ostrowski'" , "David F. Lambertson" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: Industrial "Green" Buildings Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 14:44:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3469 Hello all. I work for a large Design Build firm in Kentucky. We specialize in Industrial, Distribution, Assembly type facilities ranging from $1,000,000 to $100,000,000 in cost. A core group within my firm, including myself, are looking into approaches to making the type of facilities we build more environmentally friendly but yet still remain competitive in a very competitive industry. I would be open to suggestions along these lines as well as any resources that the subscribers to this can direct me to. Thanks for any help you may offer. David Vickers James N. Gray Company dvickers@jngray.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri May 29 15:57:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA27769 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 15:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02318; Fri, 29 May 1998 15:45:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 May 1998 15:41:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA02009 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 May 1998 15:40:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA02003 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 15:40:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id MAA16604 for ; Fri, 29 May 1998 12:49:04 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 29 May 1998 12:44:05 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: BUILDING RESOURCES To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA02004 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3470 Sacie, Two places you can try for metal clips info, and other issues as well: http://www.nrc.ca/ccmc/prodevalues_E.shtml http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/features.html The umass site has an "ask the expert" function, and the building professor there, Paul Fisette, will respond. Perhaps Hal will evaluate the guy and tell us if he really is an expert. (Just kidding, Hal! I'm learning a lot from the outgassing slugfest.) Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 30 00:45:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA17438 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 00:45:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA18582; Sat, 30 May 1998 00:33:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 30 May 1998 00:29:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA18155 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 30 May 1998 00:28:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA18142 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 00:28:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.96.104.36 (xyp33p5.navix.net [204.96.104.36]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA11237; Fri, 29 May 1998 23:34:17 -0500 Message-ID: <356F7D89.7514@navix.net> Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 22:31:23 -0500 From: Joyce Coppinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-Navix (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Nebraska Straw Bale Building Tour Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3471 LEARN ABOUT NEBRASKA’S BEST BUILDING IDEA -- STRAW BALE CONSTRUCTION TOUR HISTORIC AND NEW STRAW BALE BUILDINGS ACROSS NEBRASKA You've seen them in photographs and videos and read about them in books and articles...Here's a chance to visit them. Nebraska's Historic Straw Bale Buildings -- Pilgrim Holiness Church, Martin-Monhart Bungalow (both in Arthur, Nebraska), and the Scott house in Gordon, Nebraska. Also included on the tour will be new straw bale buildings -- each one unique in building design, construction methods, use of salvaged and indigenous materials. Affordable Housing Price Range. Opportunities to visit with straw bale builders, building owners, and others involved in alternative materials and methods for construction. FRIDAY JUNE 12 Emerald (historic), Raymond (new,) Valparaiso (new) SATURDAY JUNE 13 Lake McConaughy (new), Arthur County (historic & new), Gordon (historic) SUNDAY JUNE 14 Spencer (new), Columbus (new) Overnight Stay in North Platte, Friday night Overnight Stay in Gordon, Saturday night Motel, Campground, Restaurant information will be shared when you register. TOUR FEE -- $10 Per Person Per Day (Children Free) Meals, Lodging and Transportation At Your Own Expense Join the Tour for One Day, Two Days, or All Three Days You Must Register! PLEASE!!!... But You Can Pay When You Join The Tour When you register you will receive full itinerary (daily schedule, travel times and distances, directions to building sites). TO REGISTER AND FOR MORE INFORMATION, CALL: 1-800-910-3019 or 402.483.5135 (local calls) On Tour Dates, leave voice mail message at 800# or try 402.440.1678 (cellular) No e-mail messages after June 11, Please! Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates 2110 South 33rd Street, Lincoln, Nebraska 68506-6001 THE STRAW BALE ASSOCIATION OF NEBRASKA (SBAN) will meet Saturday evening in Gordon, Nebraska. For more information about the meeting or membership, contact Joyce (see above). ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 30 11:31:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07664 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 11:31:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27710; Sat, 30 May 1998 11:19:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 30 May 1998 11:15:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27496 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 30 May 1998 11:15:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 11:15:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805301515.LAA27496@solstice.crest.org> From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Stop all environmental progress (fwd) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3472 If you are interested in a factual presentation on the above from the New York Times, here is one that may be of interest. Several people seem to be quite knowledgable about this topic. JO ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 19:25:52 -0500 From: Ben Obregon To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca Cc: strawbale@ Subject: Stop all environmental progress Mr. Ostrowski Attached please find an article that could have been the basis for the rumor you have heard. It speaks clearly of a concentrated effort to discredit the theories of global warming and thus could easily be modified to stopping all environmental progress thru a few generations of casual conversation. ben altman wrote: > > Here's a terrific piece on the oil and utility industry's plans to > mislead the American public into thinking that global warming is a > non-issue and the US should not cut greenhouse gas emissions. It is > similar to public relations work they've already done, which has been > mostly composed of sponsoring the few dissenting scientists in major > outreach tours. > > Kudos to National Environmental Trust for a great hit. . . > > Copyright 1998 The New York Times Company > The New York Times > > April 26, 1998, Sunday, Late Edition - Final > > SECTION: Section 1; Page 1; Column 4; National Desk > > LENGTH: 1240 words > > HEADLINE: INDUSTRIAL GROUP PLANS TO BATTLE CLIMATE TREATY > > BYLINE: By JOHN H. CUSHMAN Jr. > > DATELINE: WASHINGTON, April 25 > > BODY: > > Industry opponents of a treaty to fight global warming have drafted an > ambitious proposal to spend millions of dollars to convince the public > that the environmental accord is based on shaky science. > > Among their ideas is a campaign to recruit a cadre of scientists who > share > the industry's views of climate science and to train them in public > relations > so they can help convince journalists, politicians and the public that the > risk > of global warming is too uncertain to justify controls on greenhouse gases > like > carbon dioxide that trap the sun's heat near Earth. > > An informal group of people working for big oil companies, trade > associations and conservative policy research organizations that oppose > the > treaty have been meeting recently at the Washington office of the American > Petroleum Institute to put the plan together. > > Joe Walker, a public relations representative of the petroleum > institute > who > is leading the project, said in an interview that the plan had been under > consideration for about two months and was "very, very tentative." Mr. > Walker > said no industry executives had yet been approached to pay for it. > > But an eight-page memorandum that he wrote shows in detail how some > industry > lobbyists are going about opposing the climate treaty. > > It is a daunting public relations task. Whenever the treaty's > advocates, > including the Clinton Administration, discuss global warming, they > present the > science as essentially settled and unchallengeable, and they compare > dissenting > scientists to discredited apologists for the tobacco companies. That view > has > become widely accepted among reporters and the public. > > Although mainstream scientists do identify considerable uncertainties > in > their climate predictions, which are based on computer models, they are > increasingly confident that global warming is a serious problem and often > say > that the uncertainties do not justify inaction. > > Based on the latest science, most of the world's nations agreed in Rio > de > Janeiro in 1992 that industrial nations should cut emissions of greenhouse > gases, and the treaty was modified last year to require further > reductions in > emissions to levels well below those of 1990, over the next 10 to 15 > years. > But > the United States Senate has not yet agreed to that treaty provision, > which > could require deep reductions in American consumption of fossil fuels. > > Documents describing the proposal to undermine the mainstream view were > given to The New York Times by the National Environmental Trust, whose > work in > support of the global-warming treaty is financed by philanthropic > organizations, including the Pew Charitable Trusts, the biggest of the > nation's > pro-environment grant makers. > > Phil Clapp, the president of the environmental trust, said he obtained > the > papers from an industry official. Exposing the plan at this stage, Mr. > Clapp > said, would probably ruin the effort to raise money to carry out the > plan. > > Industry representatives confirmed that the documents were authentic, > but > emphasized that the plans had not been formally approved by participating > organizations. The document listed representatives of the Exxon > Corporation, > the Chevron Corporation and the Southern Company as being involved. > Representatives of Chevron and Southern acknowledged attending meetings > on the > project; the Exxon representative could not be reached for comment. > > The draft plan calls for recruiting scientists to argue against the > Administration, and suggests that they include "individuals who do not > have a > long history of visibility and/or participation in the climate change > debate." > > But among the plan's advocates are groups already linked to the > best-known > critics of global-warming science. > > They include the Science and Environment Policy Project, founded by > Fred > Singer, a physicist noted for opposing the mainstream view of climate > science. > Frederick Seitz, another prominent skeptic on global warming, is involved > with > two other groups mentioned in the plan: the George C. Marshall Institute, > where > Dr. Seitz is chairman, and the Advancement of Sound Science Coalition, > where he > is on the science advisory board. > > On Monday, the National Academy of Sciences disassociated itself from > the > most recent effort to drum up support among skeptical scientists. That > effort > came in the form of a statement and petition on global warming circulated > by > Dr. Seitz, a physicist who was president of the academy in the 1960's. > > The petition, attacking the scientific conclusions underlying the > treaty on > climate change, was accompanied by an article that was formatted to > resemble > one that might have been published in the academy's prestigious > peer-reviewed > journal. It was not. > > The draft plan, recently discussed at the oil industry offices, calls > for > giving such dissenters on climate science "the logistical and moral > support > they have been lacking." > > It also calls for spending $5 million over two years to "maximize the > impact > of scientific views consistent with ours on Congress, the media and other > key > audiences." > > It would measure progress by counting, among other things, the > percentage of > news articles that raise questions about climate science and the number of > radio talk show appearances by scientists questioning the prevailing > views. > > The document says that industry's polling, conducted by Charlton > Research, > has found that while Americans see climate change as a serious threat, > "public > opinion is open to change on climate science." > > Supporters of the plan want to raise money quickly to spend much of it > between now and the November negotiating session in Buenos Aires, where > important details of the international treaty are to be decided. > > A proposed media-relations budget of $600,000, not counting any money > for > advertising, would be directed at science writers, editors, columnists and > television network correspondents, using as many as 20 "respected climate > scientists" recruited expressly "to inject credible science and scientific > accountability into the global climate debate, thereby raising questions > about > and undercutting the 'prevailing scientific wisdom.' " > > Among the tasks, the petroleum institute's memorandum said, would be to > "identify, recruit and train a team of five independent scientists to > participate in media outreach." > > What the industry group wanted to provide, the memorandum said, was "a > one-stop resource on climate science for members of Congress, the media, > industry and all others concerned." > > The industry group said it wanted to develop "a sound scientific > alternative" to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, a large > group of > scientists advising the United Nations that has published the most > authoritative scientific assessments of global warming. That panel has > predicted that the next century will bring widespread climatic > disruptions if > actions are not taken to reverse the accumulation of greenhouse gases in > the > atmosphere. > > The draft plan suggests that despite industry efforts to convince the > public > that the climate treaty would be costly to carry out and unfair to the > United > States, the treaty remains popular partly because environmentalists are > winning > the debate on the science. > > "Indeed, the public has been highly receptive to the Clinton > Administration's plans," the memorandum said. "There has been little, if > any, > public resistance or pressure applied to Congress to reject the treaty, > except > by those 'inside the Beltway' with vested interests." > > LANGUAGE: ENGLISH > > LOAD-DATE: April 26, 1998 > > Kelly Sims, Science Policy Director, Ozone Action > 1636 Connecticut Avenue, NW Third Floor Washington, DC 20009 USA > Voice: (202) 265-6738 Fax: (202) 986-6041 http://www.ozone.org > > The Sustainable Energy and Economic Development (SEED) Coalition is a > network of over 1,500 individuals, businesses, and organizations > advocating the use of renewable resources (wind, solar and biomass) and > energy efficiency to meet Texas' electric needs. SEED facilitates general > education about the economic, environmental, and health benefits of a > sustainable and renewable energy strategy. SEED also tracks relevant > policy-making and legislative processes and informs the public on > opportunities to voice their opinions. You can reach SEED at (512) > 479-7744 or at altman@io.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 30 13:35:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12468 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 13:35:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00805; Sat, 30 May 1998 13:23:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 30 May 1998 13:17:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00471 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 30 May 1998 13:17:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00463 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 13:17:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id KAA21290 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 10:25:46 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 30 May 1998 10:23:02 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: ENVIROFAKES To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA00465 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3473 Jorg, Thanks for sharing the Times article with the rest of us. To tell the truth, I had thought the "rumors" you alluded to were probably paranoia on someones' part. (After all, how could a major company be so stupid as to assume that such a plot wouldn't be found out?) Well, the rumors were true, and good old Exxon is of course in the thick of it. It staggers the mind to realize that these companies would be willing to sacrifice the future of the planet, just to sell more oil. I'm contacting my congresspeople and asking them to comment publicly. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 30 14:12:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13622 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 14:12:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01946; Sat, 30 May 1998 14:00:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 30 May 1998 13:56:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA01677 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 30 May 1998 13:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01673 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 13:56:15 -0400 (EDT) From: JNH2@aol.com Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id TRAMa20473; Sat, 30 May 1998 14:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <17ad39fa.35704a05@aol.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 14:03:48 EDT To: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Extending rubble trenches Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3474 On the tricky question of adding to rubble foundations... The lime/fly ash slurry may very well work the same as a thinned concrete or sanded mortar mixture. My only experience with lime/fly ash is that the fly ash content must be carefully controled (less than 15%, I think?) to avoid spalling problems on flatwork. Obviously this is not flat work and you really aren't trying to get any sort of "finished" surface to the mixture. All that aside, I think you will be wanting the strength component provided by portland cement, typically I see fly ash used as a filler and psuedo pozzelan - depending on precisely what source the fly ash has come from, there may be a high content of heavy metals and other such nasties - one common source of fly ash around here is the waste product from steel coking. On another note - the "correct" way to do this trick is most certainly a sheet piling along side the existing foundation. I simply assumed from your original description that getting the piling and driver to this site and doing the work would likely be more expensive and more damaging to the site than another alternative. By doing some sort of stabilization to the existing foundation, you are in effect putting a permanent sheet piling in place, without the problems associated with that equipment. Another "trick" that has come to mind since I first responded to this question is this: When we cut a new opening into an existing masonry wall, oftentimes we use a technique called a "squeeze lintel" In case you are not familiar, this technique involves saw cutting the masonry on each side and drilling holes through it so that two steel C channels can be snugged up to the existing wall and then squeezed into the wall surface with bolts - then the masonry below can be removed with this new lintel in place. Perhaps this techinique could be adapted to use the earth as the pushing force and a 2x10 or built up microlam-type material as the "lintel" then the concrete slurry coupd begin 10 inches to 1 foot below grade until you get to the required depth. Just another thought. Thanks for the response and good luck with your project Jim Holdcraft ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 30 14:15:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13735 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 14:15:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02182; Sat, 30 May 1998 14:03:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 30 May 1998 13:59:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA01852 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 30 May 1998 13:59:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01844 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 13:59:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24414; Sat, 30 May 1998 12:07:13 -0600 Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 12:07:12 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Jean Gallagher Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: ENVIROFAKES In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3475 Jean: You set an interesting example for others. I would like to see the response from your congressmen. Jorg Ostrowski _____________________________________________________________________________ On 30 May 1998, Jean Gallagher wrote: > > Jorg, > > Thanks for sharing the Times article with the rest of us. To tell the truth, > I had thought the "rumors" you alluded to were probably paranoia on someones' > part. (After all, how could a major company be so stupid as to assume that > such a plot wouldn't be found out?) > > Well, the rumors were true, and good old Exxon is of course in the thick of > it. It staggers the mind to realize that these companies would be willing to > sacrifice the future of the planet, just to sell more oil. > > I'm contacting my congresspeople and asking them to comment publicly. > > Jean > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 30 16:43:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA19662 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 16:43:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA05479; Sat, 30 May 1998 16:31:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 30 May 1998 16:27:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05209 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 30 May 1998 16:27:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05205 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 16:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek (sA11-p6.dreamscape.com [209.4.254.70]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA18694 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 16:35:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35706C29.59AE@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 16:29:29 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: ENVIROFAKES Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3476 The article Jorg just forwarded was the same one I posted on 4/28, (Re: Another Ubiquitous Post), amazing what a difference a month can make <:) Glad to know your listening. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 30 18:42:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA23896 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 18:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08518; Sat, 30 May 1998 18:30:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 30 May 1998 18:26:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08234 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 30 May 1998 18:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08230 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 18:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (usr40.cwo.com [207.173.173.50]) by mail.cwo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12140 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 15:37:22 -0700 Message-Id: <199805302237.PAA12140@mail.cwo.com> Reply-To: From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #196 Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 15:22:36 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3477 David, A zealot with a lot of good information and connections is John Picard or E2 in Los Angeles. He's a builder who now spends most of his time advising "movers and shakers" on green building decisions. He advises the directors of the big movie/TV/music industrial giants (e.g., Warner Bros) who used to (pre Picard) buy new sheets of mahogany ply from the Brazilian, Honduran or Phllipine origin for every new movie set, and then land-fill them when the shoot was over. He was on the President's "Greening of the White House" advisory committee. He can give you a lot of good advice about what "green" is. Be prepared for an enthusiastic lecture when you call him though. Nehemiah Stone California Energy Commission ---------- > > Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 14:44:25 -0400 > From: David Vickers > Subject: RE: GBlist: Industrial "Green" Buildings > > Hello all. > > I work for a large Design Build firm in Kentucky. We specialize in > Industrial, Distribution, Assembly type facilities ranging from > $1,000,000 to $100,000,000 in cost. A core group within my firm, > including myself, are looking into approaches to making the type of > facilities we build more environmentally friendly but yet still remain > competitive in a very competitive industry. > > I would be open to suggestions along these lines as well as any > resources that the subscribers to this can direct me to. > > Thanks for any help you may offer. > > David Vickers > James N. Gray Company > dvickers@jngray.com > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 30 19:12:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA25008 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 19:12:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09270; Sat, 30 May 1998 19:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 30 May 1998 18:57:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08971 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 30 May 1998 18:57:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08965 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 18:56:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (usr36.cwo.com [207.173.173.46]) by mail.cwo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA13219 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 16:08:10 -0700 Message-Id: <199805302308.QAA13219@mail.cwo.com> Reply-To: From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #193 Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 16:00:48 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3478 "The bottom line for me is that people in general, but politicians and corporate executives in particular have an amazing capacity for talking themselves into believing the most preposterous things when it happens to be conveneint for their careers and profit margins. The sleeziest politician, the greediest CEO and the most brutal dictator all wake up in the morning, look at themselves in the mirror and sincerely believe that their behavior is acceptable. It's called DENIAL." Lest I misunderstand, does this mean that to be a saint today one must: make sure not to be successful enough at designing, manufacturing and marketing a new widget, that one becomes a coporate executive; make sure not to have such strong convictions nor desire for public service as to feel s/he should run for Congress? does it mean that those who are not successful by dint of a shortcoming in their character, but consider themselves righteous, are not engaged in denial? I'm sure that 90% of the members of this list serve really don't need to hear any of this (and maybe I should learn from Hal's wisdom about keeping still), but I have a strong reaction to the kind of generalizations that paint politicians and corporate executives as blackards, and imply that typical working folks don't believe "the most preposterous things when it happens to be convenient for their" jobs and incomes. Objectifying people who we neither know nor completely understand will not help make the world a better place; just the opposite. Attempting to understand the desires and motives of the "movers and shakers" might help us to target our messages and projects such that they are more affective at accomplishing what we want. Long ago I found that to get my daughter to do what I REALLY wanted, I needed to respect her, understand her and talk to her in continuing consciousness of what I really wanted. Yelling didn't work. Calling her names wouldn't have (I understood THAT from the start). And ascribing motives to her before I took the time to find out how she understood her motives wouldn't have either. I suggest the same is true with how we deal with politicians and corporate executives. Nehemiah ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 30 20:02:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA26851 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 20:02:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10648; Sat, 30 May 1998 19:50:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 30 May 1998 19:46:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10375 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 30 May 1998 19:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA10370 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 19:46:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id QAA22147 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 16:54:59 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 30 May 1998 16:51:57 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: UNDERSTANDING To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAA10371 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3479 Nehemiah, Let me get this straight: When we find out about a group of business people who want to hire phony scientists to lie about global warming, so that said business people can continue fucking things up for money, we shouldn't condemn them, we should try to GET TO KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THEM? Are you interested in buying the Golden Gate Bridge, too? Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 30 21:07:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29275 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 21:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12658; Sat, 30 May 1998 20:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 30 May 1998 20:51:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12384 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 30 May 1998 20:51:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12379 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 20:50:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip03.ivnet.net [206.101.73.163]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21481; Sat, 30 May 1998 16:56:12 -0700 Message-ID: <356E5381.66E0E76@ivnet.net> Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 23:19:45 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Extending rubble trenches References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3480 Taking the idea of the sheet piling in a slightly different direction, a series of stakes could be driven across the end of the rubble trench to hold in its stuff. It wouldn't matter whether it was perpendicular or not. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma OR David M. Foley wrote: > > If the extension is more or less perpendicular to the existing rubble > trench, you can drive a sheet piling against the existing trench, at the > point where the new trench intersects the old. A sheet piling is not dirty > laundry on the floor, it's a piece of corrugated steel plate driven into > the ground to the depth of the trench. ... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 30 22:14:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA01669 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 22:14:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14193; Sat, 30 May 1998 22:02:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 30 May 1998 21:58:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA13943 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 30 May 1998 21:58:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA13939 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 21:58:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek (sa5-p38.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.230]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA20050 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 22:05:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3570B8D6.6C94@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 22:00:01 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Extending rubble trenches References: <356E5381.66E0E76@ivnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3481 Bruce wrote: > > Taking the idea of the sheet piling in a slightly different direction, a > series of stakes could be driven across the end of the rubble trench to > hold in its stuff. It wouldn't matter whether it was perpendicular or > not. My thought was several pieces of rebar driven at various angles, sort of woven together forming a net. If the rubble is well compacted and the final excavation is done with care, there should be little movement in any event. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat May 30 23:07:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA04419 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 23:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA15483; Sat, 30 May 1998 22:55:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 30 May 1998 22:51:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15258 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 30 May 1998 22:51:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from infohwy.com (root@infohwy.com [205.182.52.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15254 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 22:51:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from traviswe (max1-23.max1.wld.infohwy.com [207.90.236.23]) by infohwy.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA09462 for ; Sat, 30 May 1998 21:58:15 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805310258.VAA09462@infohwy.com> X-Sender: travwest@mail.infohwy.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 22:00:16 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Travis West Subject: GBlist: Moisture Meters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id WAA15255 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3482 > > I attended the U of Tulsa's February presentation on IAQ. > > Joe Lstiburek spoke about a moisture meter he uses to determine "moisture > load" or "moisture content" in construction materials.  I've gone to the > web, and find quite a few of these instruments for the lumber and paper > industry. > > Can't seem to find the one he referenced that works good on concrete > floors, masonry walls, etc. > > Where do I look for guidance on acceptable levels also? > > Any suggestions? > > TIA > Travis West ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 31 04:24:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA18384 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 04:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA22050; Sun, 31 May 1998 04:12:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 May 1998 04:08:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA21827 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 04:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (root@wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA21823 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 04:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip195.efn.org [204.214.97.195]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA13205; Sun, 31 May 1998 01:13:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert Bolman" To: , Subject: GBlist: Nehemiah's comments Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:00:15 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8c6a$35b1aae0$c361d6cc@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3483 Nehemiah, I actually thought I was defending corporate executives and politicians by explaining that it's not a simple case of them being sleazy and greedy as so many people would be quick to say. As I implied in the first sentence of my statement, what they're exhibiting is a very human characteristic. We all do it to some extent. But there is a major difference between myself and many corporate executives and politicians. I do not have a vested economic interest in embracing my beliefs. Indeed I would certainly have a lot more spare time and probably more money if I DIDN'T believe the things that I believe. On the other hand, as corporate executives and politicians spend decades rising up the ladder of success in their careers they are systematically groomed and conditioned to enthusiastically embrace a very specific "conventional wisdom". If they can't learn to think a certain way, they simply won't go to the top in their careers. (It goes without saying that I'm speaking in broad brushstrokes here). If we environmentalist types had a friend who was an alcoholic and an abusive spouse, we'd be saying, "He's in a lot of denial. How can we encourage him to come around and see that?" Meanwhile, we have all these corporate executives and politicians that are in serious denial and that are running the world (into a brick wall). Far to many people simply pass them off as being greedy or sleazy. "Attempting to understand the desires and motives of the "movers and shakers"" certainly couldn't hurt. We ought to try to understand as much as we can - especially the psychological condition that they are in. We should at least be prepared to talk about it. This is the age of do-it-yourself-psychology. We should encourage everyone in general but those that are running the world in particular to always be their own harshest critic - always be assessing their own desires and motives and to accept the possibility that their actions might be wrong. Robert I had written earlier: >"The bottom line for me is that people in general, but politicians and >corporate executives in particular have an amazing capacity for talking >themselves into believing the most preposterous things when it happens to >be >conveneint for their careers and profit margins. > >The sleeziest politician, the greediest CEO and the most brutal dictator >all >wake up in the morning, look at themselves in the mirror and sincerely >believe that their behavior is acceptable. > >It's called DENIAL." > >Lest I misunderstand, does this mean that to be a saint today one must: >make sure not to be successful enough at designing, manufacturing and >marketing a new widget, that one becomes a coporate executive; make sure >not to have such strong convictions nor desire for public service as to >feel s/he should run for Congress? does it mean that those who are not >successful by dint of a shortcoming in their character, but consider >themselves righteous, are not engaged in denial? >I'm sure that 90% of the members of this list serve really don't need to >hear any of this (and maybe I should learn from Hal's wisdom about keeping >still), but I have a strong reaction to the kind of generalizations that >paint politicians and corporate executives as blackards, and imply that >typical working folks don't believe "the most preposterous things when it >happens to be convenient for their" jobs and incomes. >Objectifying people who we neither know nor completely understand will not >help make the world a better place; just the opposite. Attempting to >understand the desires and motives of the "movers and shakers" might help >us to target our messages and projects such that they are more affective at >accomplishing what we want. Long ago I found that to get my daughter to do >what I REALLY wanted, I needed to respect her, understand her and talk to >her in continuing consciousness of what I really wanted. Yelling didn't >work. Calling her names wouldn't have (I understood THAT from the start). >And ascribing motives to her before I took the time to find out how she >understood her motives wouldn't have either. I suggest the same is true >with how we deal with politicians and corporate executives. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 31 04:35:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA18776 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 04:35:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA22393; Sun, 31 May 1998 04:23:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 May 1998 04:19:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA22157 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 04:19:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (root@wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA22153 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 04:19:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip195.efn.org [204.214.97.195]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA13987 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 01:25:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert Bolman" To: Subject: GBlist: finishing an old garage Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 01:12:21 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8c6b$d640c440$c361d6cc@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3484 I'm currently converting an old wooden garage into a finished yoga studio. It has lap siding over 2x4 studs - no sheathing, no tarpaper, nothing. I intend on hanging sheetrock, blowing in celulose insulation and using a vapor barrior primer. I'll use some cross-tie strapping to make it more structural. On one hand I feel tempted to cut strips of Tyvek paper to place against the inside of the siding with the edges returning in a couple inches along the sides of the studs. On the other hand, I've heard that blown in celulose reduces draftiness rather well and as a straw bale enthusiast, I feel inclined to "let it breath" as much as possible. Any guidance out there? Robert Bolman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 31 06:27:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA24004 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 06:27:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA23525; Sun, 31 May 1998 06:15:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 May 1998 06:11:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA23320 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 06:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA23316 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 06:11:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA18524 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 06:19:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 06:19:41 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: Seeking more info on Advanced Combustion fireplaces... Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3485 980531 Skip Hayden's comments on same are interesting. Can we get more info? Can someone name manufacturers, www sites, et al? Skip, does the name of your company imply that it makes these FPLs? Thanks! jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 31 07:11:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA25671 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 07:11:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA24175; Sun, 31 May 1998 06:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 May 1998 06:55:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA23981 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 06:55:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA23977 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 06:55:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.201.42] (usr2a42.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.42]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA10874; Sun, 31 May 1998 07:03:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980529.103315.6566.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <1.5.4.32.19980528224412.006a1100@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 07:04:06 -0400 To: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Daylighting for energy saving Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3486 At 10:19 AM -0700 5/29/98, Beverly A. Weiter wrote: >If you or any others have suggestions I would be appreciative - perhaps >some sources for interior light shelf design. Hi Beverly, In Environmental Building News vol. 3, No. 4 (May/June 95) we illustrated the interior light shelf detail that ARC Design used at the Wampanoag Tribal Headquarters. It seemed very well thought out. Perhaps John, Bruce or Marc would be willing to comment on how it has performed and held up... Nadav Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 31 09:31:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02447 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 09:31:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26326; Sun, 31 May 1998 09:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 May 1998 09:13:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26071 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 09:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26067 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 09:13:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA12510; Sun, 31 May 1998 07:20:40 -0600 Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 07:20:40 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Cc: Norbert Senff , John LaGamba , Green building list Subject: Re: GBlist: Seeking more info on Advanced Combustion fireplaces... In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3487 JH: Have you already talked to Norbert Senf (of the Masonry Heater Association) and John LaGamba (of Tempcast)? Both are real-world practitioners. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________________ On Sun, 31 May 1998, Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA wrote: > > Skip Hayden's comments on same are interesting. Can we get more info? Can > someone name manufacturers, www sites, et al? > > Skip, does the name of your company imply that it makes these FPLs? > > Thanks! > jh > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 31 15:36:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19196 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 15:36:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04326; Sun, 31 May 1998 15:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 May 1998 15:18:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04001 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 15:18:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.90]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA03996 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 15:18:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lamar.ColoState.EDU (lamar.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.75]) by eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id NAA67452 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 13:27:03 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from sweigel@localhost) by lamar.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id NAA09350 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sun, 31 May 1998 13:27:03 -0600 (MDT) From: weigel Message-Id: <199805311927.NAA09350@lamar.ColoState.EDU> Subject: GBlist: low-flush toilets To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:27:03 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3488 Can anyone help with recommendations for low-flush toilets that really work? We are wanting to come up with a reasonably priced standard install toilet for our cohousing project. I have seen some recommendatons for Toto brand on the internet. Any experiences orother recommendations? thanks Stephanie sweigel@lamar.colostate.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 31 16:06:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA20406 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 16:06:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05259; Sun, 31 May 1998 15:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 May 1998 15:49:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04983 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 15:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04979 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 15:49:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 9LIa003745; Sun, 31 May 1998 15:56:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <7a6890f1.3571b5ea@aol.com> Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 15:56:25 EDT To: iaq@onelist.com, earthvision@getf.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, abasonreel@abanet.org Cc: cmcs@cloudnet.com (Thomas J. Danzl), peter@rachel.clark.net (Peter Montague) Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: PBS Show Re: Dangers of man-made chemicals to human health and the environment. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3489 Thought perhaps some of members of this list might be interested in watching this show. Regards, Cathy Flanders rkfabf@aol.com Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://members.tripod.com/~rkfabf/index.html IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq Airing on Tuesday, June 2, 9:00 pm EST on PBS. Go to the websites: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/ http://www.pbs.org/whatson/1998/06/descriptions/ FRON.html Fooling With Nature FRONTLINE examines new evidence in the debate over the danger of man-made chemicals to human health and the environment, 35 years after Rachel Carson first raised concerns of an impending ecological crisis. Currently millions in research and public relations dollars are being spent in the battle and President Clinton is calling this one of his top environmental priorities. The film looks at the growing concern that man-made chemicals like pesticides and dioxins are altering hormones in animals and examines their possible impact on human beings. ("information for one-time member use under the Federal Library Act.") ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 31 18:46:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA29215 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 18:46:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09585; Sun, 31 May 1998 18:34:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 May 1998 18:27:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA09263 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 18:27:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09259 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 18:27:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.254.3.5] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Sun, 31 May 1998 15:37:44 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: low-flush toilets Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 15:35:12 -0700 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1315493431-253818@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3490 Stephanie We installed Kohler Wellworths (1.5 gallon flush) in our new house six years ago and have had absolutely no trouble with them. Bruce S >Can anyone help with recommendations for low-flush toilets that really >work? We are wanting to come up with a reasonably priced standard install >toilet for our cohousing project. I have seen some recommendatons for >Toto brand on the internet. Any experiences orother recommendations? > >thanks >Stephanie >sweigel@lamar.colostate.edu ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun May 31 22:33:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA10377 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 22:33:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16758; Sun, 31 May 1998 22:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 May 1998 22:16:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA16249 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 May 1998 22:15:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA16243 for ; Sun, 31 May 1998 22:15:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id VAA0000025336; Sun, 31 May 1998 21:24:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980601022652.006bf81c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 21:26:52 -0500 To: "Jean Gallagher" From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: UNDERSTANDING Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3491 Re: >Let me get this straight: When we find out about a group of business people >who want to hire phony scientists to lie about global warming, so that said >business people can continue fucking things up for money, we shouldn't >condemn them, we should try to GET TO KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THEM? Jean I think the N's comments were meant to be sarcastic, but on the other hand it IS a good idea to try to understand people on the other side. It helps your own tactics which in turn might help you to 'win'. Good strategy. S. Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 09:02:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06508 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 09:02:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02123; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 08:50:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 08:45:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01833 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 08:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01829 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 08:45:02 -0400 (EDT) From: DAEly@aol.com Received: from DAEly@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1HHIa02999 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 08:52:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <671d835f.3572a40d@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 08:52:28 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: finishing an old garage Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3492 Robert -- I don't know what climate you are in, I assume the building will require heating, and possibly air conditioning. Your reasoning is correct to brace the structure, insulate and use an interior vapor barrier. I don't think you will gain much by putting cup pieces of Tyvek between the studs, it's tough to seal all those edges, and the vapor barrier can also act as an air barrier. If you have long, cold winters, you may want to increase the r- value of the walls by using a layer of rigid insulation under the dry-wall finish. As far as "let it breathe", I suggest controlled breathing by use of a heat recovery ventilator, rather than letting it breathe as much as it wants, when it wants. Happy building!! David Ely, Architect New Boston, NH ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 09:18:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07295 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 09:18:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03006; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 09:06:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 09:00:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02653 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 09:00:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com (ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com [209.37.0.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02616 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 09:00:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim_Hartzfeld@mail.ifsia.com Received: (from uucp@localhost) by ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) id JAA25980; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 09:07:04 -0400 Received: from 10.2.13.2 by ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com via smap (3.2) id xma025956; Mon, 1 Jun 98 09:06:52 -0400 Received: by mail.ifsia.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 85256616.00485934 ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 09:10:14 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: INTERFACE To: nistone@gowebway.com cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, dvickers@jngray.com, browning@RMI.org Message-ID: <85256616.00478E5C.00@mail.ifsia.com> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 09:10:12 -0400 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #196 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3493 I hope someone else hasn't responded similarly. This sounds like a commercial, but I have no interest in RMI other than as an enthusiastic supporter of Hunter and Amory Lovins and Bill Browning. You might check out Rocky Mountain Institute's recent publication, "Green Developments". This large text and supporting CDROM has over 100 case studies of green building projects in a number of building market segments. >From the liner of the CDROM: "Green Developments describes an exciting new field in which environmental considerations are viewed as opportunities to create fundamentally better buildings and communities--more comfortable, more efficient, more appealing, and ultimately more profitable. The 100 case-study projects on Green Developments demonstrate that environmentally-responsible real-estate development makes dollars and sense. The CD ROM features over 400 visuals, numerous resources and weblinks to key sites." Give the Green Development Center at RMI a call at 970-927-3807. I hope this is helpful. Jim Hartzfeld ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 10:25:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10424 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:25:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05965; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:13:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:08:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05554 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05550 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:08:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:14:54 -0400 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF1355B1@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Industrial "Green" Buildings Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 08:59:49 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3494 David, You may already be aware of these resources but here goes: Try the U.S. Green Building Council at www.usgbc.org and the Rocky Mountain Institute at www.rmi.org. Also, there is a new magazine out named Environmental Design and Construction that is extremely good IMHO. It is free to the trades. ED&C can be reached at 201/291-9001. Bovis does similar sized projects to your firm only in the commercial, healthcare, education and entertainment markets ($2.3 billion in '97). We are doing some interesting things in the "Resource Recovery" (construction waste management) area right now with a long term focus on incorporating Green Building into every aspect of our building process. Feel free to contact me directly to discuss your groups activities as it sounds like we are both trying to do the same thing. Regards, Drew ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Drew George, Green Building Champion Bovis Construction Corp 11 Lincoln Parkway, Annapolis MD 21401 Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 > ---------- > From: David Vickers[SMTP:dvickers@jngray.com] > Sent: Friday, May 29, 1998 2:44 PM > To: 'Jorg D. Ostrowski'; David F. Lambertson > Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: RE: GBlist: Industrial "Green" Buildings > > Hello all. > > I work for a large Design Build firm in Kentucky. We specialize in > Industrial, Distribution, Assembly type facilities ranging from > $1,000,000 to $100,000,000 in cost. A core group within my firm, > including myself, are looking into approaches to making the type of > facilities we build more environmentally friendly but yet still remain > competitive in a very competitive industry. > > I would be open to suggestions along these lines as well as any > resources that the subscribers to this can direct me to. > > Thanks for any help you may offer. > > David Vickers > James N. Gray Company > dvickers@jngray.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 11:16:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA12600 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09338; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:59:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08707 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:59:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08703 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:59:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.67.58 (pm1-26.hoosier.net [206.106.67.58]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA18820; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:07:34 -0500 Message-ID: <35727D65.1449@bloomington.in.us> Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 10:07:34 +0000 From: John Bower Reply-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weigel CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: low-flush toilets References: <199805311927.NAA09350@lamar.ColoState.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3495 I've got two of American Standard's one-piece Hamiltion low-flow toilets, and have only had to double-flush a couple of times in the 14 months I've had them. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 12:01:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16191 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:01:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12663; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:49:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:44:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12300 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:44:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mail.uk.psi.net (relay1.mail.uk.psi.net [154.32.105.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12287 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:44:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.ltsi.co.uk (ltsi.co.uk) [193.122.210.2] by relay1.mail.uk.psi.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ygWtD-0005oa-00; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:52:47 +0100 Received: from LTSDOM-Message_Server by ltsi.co.uk with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 01 Jun 1998 16:47:44 +0100 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 16:47:03 +0100 From: Keith Forsyth To: Greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Certified Wood Products Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3496 Dear All, At present, I am undertaking research to assess the likelihood of customers (processors, retailers and the end consumers) paying price premiums for certified wood products. As part of this research, I thought it appropriate to contact members of this discussion group to find out about your actual experiences. If anyone has experience of buying and/or selling certified wood products, I would be most interested to find out your views and experiences with regard to the potential for charging price premiums for certified wood products. More specifically, but in general, I would be keen to find out: Q1: Whether or not you have bought or sold certified wood products for a price premium? Q2: If yes, what level of price premium did you achieve (or pay) - 5%, 10%, 40% etc? Q3: For which certified wood products did you obtain (or pay) a price premium (sawn lumber, flooring, furniture etc)? Q4: Were the price premiums which you achieved (or paid) in comparson to other similar products or in comparison to the prices you used to charge (or pay) for these products before they were certified? Q5: In which markets do you achieve (or pay) these premiums (please specify the country - UK, Denmark, USA etc)? Any information/views related to price premiums would be much appreciated. For your information, the research I am undertaking is, at present, being done for my own personal use/interest. There is the possibility that parts of the paper which will be developed will be included in published articles and reports. The paper which I will develop will be available to any members of this group who contribute and/or are interested in receiving a copy - please let me know. Yours sincerely, Keith Forsyth Consultant LTS International Pentlands Science Park, Bush Loan, Penicuik, EH26 0PH, Scotland, UK. Tel: +44311 440 5500 Fax: +44131 440 5501 Please note that my new email is Keith-Forsyth@ltsi.co.uk ! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 12:32:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA18117 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15057; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:16:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14719 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:15:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.39]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14714 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:15:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 9LEKa08936; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:23:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <46195556.3572d578@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:23:19 EDT To: iaq@onelist.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, CHECNET-FORUM@checnet.org Cc: dhendershot@oregontrail.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Now Cleaning products by Mirachem (press Release) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3497 Does anyone with the list know if these products are available in the US, yet? I called our local Wal-Mart & they advised that they don't carry them & had in fact never heard of these products. I've contacted the company, but I haven't heard back yet. Regards, Cathy Flanders Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://members.tripod.com/~rkfabf/index.html IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq MMET Clean Air Technology Arrives in Canada Family Safety is First Concern TORONTO, June 1 /PRNewswire/ --- For the first time in Canada, consumers will be able to purchase the hugely popular NOW(R) line of household cleaning products (www.nowclean.com), the first consumer products certified as clean air solvents by the California South Coast Air Quality Management District. NOW is formulated with the same MMET technology contained in Mirachem(R) MMET products, the environmentally compatible, exceptionally effective cleaning products widely used by Canadian industry. NOW will be carried by Walmart stores throughout Canada. "Canadians seem to be even more concerned about their safety and their environment than Americans," says Jim Edwards, president and founder of IEP, Inc., makers of NOW. "I'm delighted they will be able to buy our products locally, because I know we have loyal customers who have been bringing it back from the states." In industry, Mirachem is currently used in Canada by Air Canada, the Ontario transit system, and by Chrysler. The clean air certification from a California air quality board considered among the strictest in the world ensures that these products comply with the most stringent legislation on the horizon. To qualify for SCAQMD's Clean Air Solvent certification, laboratory analysis of the products must show the product has: * 50 grams per liter or less of smog-forming volatile organic compounds * no toxic constituents * no ingredients that contribute to global warming or deplete the ozone layer * a low vapor pressure Mirachem products, which are widely used in the automotive aftermarket, in parts washers, and by such environmentally conscious companies as Chrysler, are developed to ensure worker safety and environmental protection, without sacrificing effectiveness. NOW products apply the same technology to the consumer market. Businesses in California that use environmentally certified clean air solvents will be exempt from record-keeping requirements and emissions fees under SCAQMD rules covering solvent cleaning operations. Business are required to switch to lower-polluting degreasing solvents, to reduce volatile organic compound (VOC) or hydrocarbon emissions from solvent degreasing tanks by December 31, 1998. Similar regulations are being considered for the consumer product market in California. IEP, Inc. of Tempe, Arizona, manufactures and markets Mirachem 500, Mirachem 250, Mirachem 750, Mirachem Press Room Cleaner, Insight Firearms Cleaner, and through its affiliated company, NOW Products, Inc., manufactures and markets NOW(R) brand cleaning products for the home. The Canadian offices of IEP, Inc. are in Stoney Brook, Ontario. SOURCE Innovative Environmental Products CO: Innovative Environmental Products http://www.nowclean.com/ customerservice@nowclean.com ("information for one-time member use under the Federal Library Act.") ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 12:50:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA19790 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:50:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15955; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:38:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:34:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15632 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:34:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.state.me.us (mailhub.state.me.us [141.114.122.227]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15628 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:34:32 -0400 (EDT) X400-Received: by mta MTAMaine1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=Mainegovt/; Relayed; 01 Jun 1998 12:30:13 -0400 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=Mainegovt/; Relayed; 01 Jun 1998 12:30:13 -0400 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=Mainegovt/; 06A2C3572D7151B4-MTAMaine1] Content-Identifier: 06A2C3572D7151B4 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Jim.E.Dusch@state.me.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <"06A2C3572D7151B4*/c=us/admd= /prmd=Mainegovt/o=msmail/s=Dusch/g=Jim/i=E/"@MHS> Date: 01 Jun 1998 12:30:13 -0400 From: "Dusch, Jim E" To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" (Return requested) (Receipt notification requested) Subject: GBlist: Health Stuff MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3498 Hey folks: I'm trying to get my hands on "health" information -- like out-gassing, etc. -- regarding recycled material content and reduced environmental impact stock and materials -- like strand-board, mixed plastic & wood materials, low-VOC finishes, etc. I put health in quotes because I'm ignorant about the scope of what the concerns should be. Any directions or resources will be greatly appreciated. Jim Dusch ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 13:08:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA20931 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:08:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17197; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:55:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:51:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16601 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:51:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16597 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:51:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA25073 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dsy20.vineyard.net(206.166.158.78) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma025001; Mon Jun 1 12:59:27 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199805311927.NAA09350@lamar.ColoState.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:05:06 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: low-flush toilets Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3499 >Can anyone help with recommendations for low-flush toilets that really >work? We are wanting to come up with a reasonably priced standard install >toilet for our cohousing project. I have seen some recommendatons for >Toto brand on the internet. Any experiences orother recommendations? > >thanks >Stephanie >sweigel@lamar.colostate.edu Over the years we've used many different types, starting with those wonderful Swedish Ifo's years ago. Toilets change a lot over time; all the manufacturers seem to make changes often. Kohler Wellworths used to be good, not so great anymore. Amer. Std. Cadet ll has been pretty good right along. A recent Consumer Reports Online report rated the top three (of gravity flush models as opposed to pressure assisted, pump assisted, or vacuum assisted) as Eljer Berkeley, Eljer Patriot, & AS Cadet ll. Best buy and overall top was Gerber Ultra Flush, which is pressure assisted (which adds both noise and maintenance issues). John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 13:26:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22158 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:26:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18690; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:14:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:10:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18199 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:10:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.90]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18191 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lamar.ColoState.EDU (lamar.ACNS.ColoState.EDU [129.82.100.75]) by eagle.ACNS.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) with ESMTP id LAA62086 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:18:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: (from sweigel@localhost) by lamar.ColoState.EDU (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id LAA28450 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:18:30 -0600 (MDT) From: weigel Message-Id: <199806011718.LAA28450@lamar.ColoState.EDU> Subject: GBlist: followup -- low-flush toilet To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:18:30 -0600 (MDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3500 As a followup to my inquiry on low flush toilets -- thanks for the replies. I also called Contractors 2000 and got the brand and model # of the low flush toilet that they installed for Dave Barry (he mentions this in his article of 4/12/98) that he was so pleased with. It is: Western Pottery Model #822ULF Stephanie sweigel@lamar.colostate.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 13:28:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22266 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18873; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:11:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18310 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:11:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18298 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mbay152.cruzio.com (mbay152.cruzio.com [165.227.93.152]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id KAA13166; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Hal Levin" To: "Dusch, Jim E" , Subject: RE: GBlist: Health Stuff Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:17:17 -0700 Message-ID: <000301bd8d81$207862a0$985de3a5@mbay152.cruzio.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <"06A2C3572D7151B4*/c=us/admd= /prmd=Mainegovt/o=msmail/s=Dusch/g=Jim/i=E/"@MHS> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3501 WOW! Hal Levin hlevin@cruzio.com 2548 Empire Grade, Santa Cruz, CA 95060 408 425 3946 fax 408 426 6522 -----Original Message----- From: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org [mailto:owner-greenbuilding@crest.org] On Behalf Of Dusch, Jim E Sent: Monday, June 01, 1998 9:30 AM To: greenbuilding@crest.org (Return requested) (Receipt notification requested) Subject: GBlist: Health Stuff Hey folks: I'm trying to get my hands on "health" information -- like out-gassing, etc. -- regarding recycled material content and reduced environmental impact stock and materials -- like strand-board, mixed plastic & wood materials, low-VOC finishes, etc. I put health in quotes because I'm ignorant about the scope of what the concerns should be. Any directions or resources will be greatly appreciated. Jim Dusch ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 13:34:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22680 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19426; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:18:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19026 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19022 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:18:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.198.13.99] (ud2.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.99]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA09187 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:26:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199805310258.VAA09462@infohwy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:36:26 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Moisture Meters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3502 >> >> I attended the U of Tulsa's February presentation on IAQ. > > >> >> Joe Lstiburek spoke about a moisture meter he uses to determine "moisture >> load" or "moisture content" in construction materials. I've gone to the >> web, and find quite a few of these instruments for the lumber and paper >> industry. > > >> >> Can't seem to find the one he referenced that works good on concrete >> floors, masonry walls, etc. > > > >> >> Where do I look for guidance on acceptable levels also? >> >> Any suggestions? >> >> TIA >> Travis West Hi, For a general purpose diagnostic device, I like the Tramax "Moisture Encounter" (even though it sounds like a theme park attraction). It is a non-destructive measurement device that three scales wood, medium density stuff like gyp board and pretty dense stuff like masonry. It is calibrated only on the wood scale. The other two scales are relative scales. It uses a radio frequency to assess density to a depth of about one inch, so you can get goofed up with thicker materials. It costs about $300. If you are interested in wood only then I'd suggest a Delmhorst with pins. If you want straw bales, there's a moisture content meter with really long pins for bales. If you've got $1000 to $2000 there's some non-destructive units that are a lot more sophistictaed than the Moisture Encounter and penetration a lot deeper. You can buy most of them from the Professional Equipment Catalog (a supplier for the home inspection trade). - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 13:45:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA23367 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:45:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20076; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:29:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19701 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19696 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.198.13.99] (ud2.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.99]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA12432 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:37:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01bd8c6b$d640c440$c361d6cc@home.efn.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:47:20 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: finishing an old garage Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3503 >I'm currently converting an old wooden garage into a finished yoga studio. >It has lap siding over 2x4 studs - no sheathing, no tarpaper, nothing. I >intend on hanging sheetrock, blowing in celulose insulation and using a >vapor barrior primer. I'll use some cross-tie strapping to make it more >structural. > >On one hand I feel tempted to cut strips of Tyvek paper to place against the >inside of the siding with the edges returning in a couple inches along the >sides of the studs. On the other hand, I've heard that blown in celulose >reduces draftiness rather well and as a straw bale enthusiast, I feel >inclined to "let it breath" as much as possible. > >Any guidance out there? > >Robert Bolman Robert, Unless you live in a very dry area, I'd advise against this course. Here's my rationale. Wind driven and sun driven rain penetrate wooden siding pretty freely. The existing garage wall can dry out easily from both the interior and exterior surfaces. If you blow cellulose into this cavity with no protection from moisture migration tjrough the siding, it is likely there will be times when mold will grow in the cellulose, the framing or the siding. Tyvec or 15# felt (my current cautious pick) on the interior would be a big improvement. Extended overhangs help. If you live in a place where you get 50 or more inches of rain per years or a frequent combination of rain and wind (like coastal climates), I'd suggest an air gap behind the siding. What's your climate like?? - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 13:52:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA23913 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:52:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20520; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:36:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA20175 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:36:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA20170 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.198.13.99] (ud2.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.99]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA14456 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:44:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 13:54:23 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: r-value of logs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3504 >Anyone recall any recent primary research on the R value of wood. Back in >the old days, one inch of wood had a R value of 1(the standard)---it was >then assumed that 2 inches of wood was R2 and 3.5 inches R3.5 etc. etc. > >Then several log homes were tested in Saskatchewan and the results showed >that a log wall 8 inches (or was it six inches?) thick has a R value of >14. Which allowed log houses to be mortgaged in Canada (since these log >homes now met the minimum R values for walls called for in the code). > >Have more studies been done?---or do most folks in the building industry >still think wood is a poor insulator. > >-Harry Pasternak >Thousand Islands Institute > Harry, The r-value of uniform material is linear - 3 inches is three times 1 inch. I am not familiar with the study you referred to, but my guess is that either the logs were made of higher r-value wood or, more likely, they performed as well as a light mass R-14 wall because of thermal mass dynamics. Thermal mas dynamics are different for different climates, so a concrete wall works as well as an insulated wall in Florida, but is terrible in Potsdam. As I recall, Alex or Nadav wrote a great peice on thermal mass and insulation in a recent EBN. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 15:29:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01011 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:29:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25996; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:17:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:13:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25615 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:13:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25611 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:13:25 -0400 (EDT) From: IdahoCFM@aol.com Received: from IdahoCFM@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1NEJa14532 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:21:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:21:13 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Low flush - commercial Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3505 OK, thanks for some good input on the residential toilet discussion. Does anybody have info on how these models work under commercial use? I have yet to find one that does an adequate job in commercial and light industrial office projects. Chris Meyer Parkwood Business Properties ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 15:33:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01301 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26438; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:21:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:17:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25973 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:17:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV (dcsmtp.wictok7.epa.gov [161.80.160.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25966 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:17:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 01 Jun 1998 12:17:16 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 12:12:29 -0400 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Stop all environmental progress (fwd) -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3506 A few good books that deal with this issue: ________ The Heat is On: The High Stakes Battle Over Earth's Threatened Climate by Ross Gelbspan (Addison-Wesley Publishing, 1997) Some of the chapter names can give you a clue about this area of discussion and how it is covered in the book: 2) The Battle for Control of Reality 3) A Congressional Book Burning 4) The Changing Climate of Business: Boom or Bankruptcy? 5) After Rio: The Swamp of Diplomacy Appendix) A Scientific Critique fo the Greenhouse Skeptics _____ Betrayal of Science and Reason: How Anti-Environment Rhetoric Threatens Our Future by Paul and Anne Ehrlich This book is entirely dedicated to debunking the "brownlash," those skeptics and others who twist the truth, lie or distort in order to obfuscate the science about environmental problems. ______ Toxic Deception : How the Chemical Industry Manipulates Science, Bends the Law, and Endangers Your Health (following description borrowed from amazon.com) Dan Fagin and Marianne Lavelle, two prize-winning investigative reporters who specialize in environmental writing, and the Center for Public Integrity have dug deep into the secretive world of the chemical giants and unearthed enough disturbing questions to shake America's faith in many household products and in much of the food we consume. Without polemic, the authors show precisely how manufacturers have managed to keep harmful products on the market even when safer, cheaper alternatives are available. Drawing on the resources of the Center for Public Integrity, a nonprofit group well known for its exposes of political influence in Washington, the authors offer vivid examples of how the chemical industry flexes its muscle in order to outmaneuver government watchdogs. . . Enjoy! Steve O. ________________________ Contact Information: Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epamail.epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html _________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 16:35:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA06508 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29896; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:22:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:18:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA29226 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:17:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f115.hotmail.com [207.82.250.165]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29222 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:17:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 22122 invoked by uid 0); 1 Jun 1998 20:25:39 -0000 Message-ID: <19980601202539.22121.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.30.214.74 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 01 Jun 1998 13:25:38 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.30.214.74] From: "A. Bambi Tran" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: rubble foundations Content-Type: text/plain Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 13:25:38 PDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3507 hello! i just signed on the GBList and have missed the majority of the discussion on RUBBLE FOUNDATIONS. can anyone please e-mail me some info about it: how does it work? for what soil conditions? how is it built? where can i get more technical info/details/drawings for it? where have it been built and what are the results? what are the environmental benefits, energy efficiency, etc?? how much does it cost compared to typical poured concrete footings and foundation walls, etc?? etc.. thank you! a. bambi tran company_B@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 16:35:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA06516 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:35:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29948; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:23:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:19:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA29315 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:18:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stan.lcc.net (welcome.lcc.net [207.70.172.247]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29311 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:18:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lcc.net (hunt-pri2-a14.lcc.net [207.70.180.62]) by stan.lcc.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id PAA07900 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:27:16 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <357310E2.E40E99DB@lcc.net> Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 15:36:50 -0500 From: Kim Travis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GBlist Subject: GBlist: lowflush toilets Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3508 My husband and I bought the cheapest made in mexico 1.5 gal flush toilets 5 years ago. We have had no problems and they work great. Kim & Garth Travis ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 16:51:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA07557 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00982; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:39:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:35:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00589 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:35:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stan.lcc.net (welcome.lcc.net [207.70.172.247]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00581 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:35:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lcc.net (hunt-pri2-a14.lcc.net [207.70.180.62]) by stan.lcc.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id PAA13715 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 15:43:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <357314AD.DFCA26A6@lcc.net> Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 15:53:01 -0500 From: Kim Travis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GBlist Subject: GBlist: Fiber optic lighting Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3509 Hi, Last thursday night on HGTV I caught part of a program that showed using fiber optic lighting in thier swimming pools. I was interupted and did not get the name of the company. They did say that they have a yard package out on the market and that they are working on a package for the home. I would really like to find out more about this system. Just imagine only using one bulb to light your whole house. If anyone knows anything about this, please let me know. Thank you Kim Travis ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 17:52:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA12229 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:52:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03978; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:40:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:36:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA03546 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03540 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA11833 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:44:20 -0400 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-82-MAX-BTVT-06.ramp.together.net [208.13.204.82]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA24259 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:44:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980601174203.006862d8@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 17:42:03 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Re: Expertise In-Reply-To: <199805300600.CAA20013@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3510 Dear Jean, Beverly and Hal -- Considered opinions and facts from folks who have experience in whatever is being discussed are the lifeblood of this list. It's a place where the novice and somewhat experienced can learn from those with more experience. Hal -- no need to apologize for correcting misconceptions, and Jeanne -- characterizing the dialogue as a "slugfest" even jestfully can discourage some from giving us their valuable insights. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT 05602 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 18:11:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA13514 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 18:11:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05194; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:55:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04757 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:55:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04753 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:55:22 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1HMFa08707 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 18:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <769010fc.35732520@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 18:03:11 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: re "Stop all environmental progress" Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3511 Friends, Seems to me that many of the comments on this topic are embellished versions of: "Grunt, Us Good , Them Bad". Many of the posts seem somewhat bigotted, lumping a huge class of people into ugly stereotypes based on their place of employment. I don't see this kind of preaching to the choir getting us very far. Any ideas on creating useful dialog that might bridge the differences in perspective between us & them? Nehemiah's suggestion, that we try to at least glimpse the perspective from the other side of the debate before lashing out with broad sweeps of condemnation, seems pretty sensible to me. Life has taught me that there are always at least two sides of every debate, the "truth" is usually less than absolute and usually shaded by complexity. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 19:19:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA17876 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 19:19:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08774; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 19:07:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 19:02:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA08450 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 19:02:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA08446 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 19:02:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id QAA07869 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:11:01 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 1 Jun 1998 16:08:06 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: APPLES AND ORANGES To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAA08447 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3512 Fred, You seem angered by what you see as generalizations by "some" here. You do so, by the wqay, in a very general way, and then give the old "walk in the other guy's shoes," "two sides to every story" routine. Well, I'm not a scientist, but there seems absolutely no doubt that we need to be pro-active about our endangered environment. There can be differences of opinion about WHAT to do, what are PRIORITIES, but I don't think we need to walk in the shoes of people who want to hire phony scientists to confuse the public. It's like with the tobacco executives, Fred. We don't need to try and understand "their" position; they are liars and we all know it. They are evil people who will do anything for money. Do we need to have compassion for the small tobacco farmers? Of course. Are the small tobacco farmers LIKE the tobacco executives? No. I don't mind trying on the tobacco farmer's shoes, Fred, but don't confuse apples and oranges. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 19:46:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA20507 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 19:46:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10042; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 19:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 19:30:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA09753 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 19:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.iol.ie (mail1.mail.iol.ie [194.125.2.192]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09749 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 19:30:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from PENTIUM (dialup-268.dublin.iol.ie [194.125.42.28]) by mail.iol.ie Sendmail (v8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA22861; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:38:58 +0100 Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:38:58 +0100 Message-Id: <199806012338.AAA22861@mail.iol.ie> X-Sender: oconnor@gpo.iol.ie X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Paul O'Connor Architects" Subject: Re: GBlist: Friendly Building Materials Cc: drakey@mail.enternet.com.au Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3513 Jarrett, A good start is this book: Green Design: A Guide to the Environmental Impact of Building Materials Authors: Avril Fox & Robin Murrell ISBN: 1-85454-200-1 Quote from back cover: "Green Design has been written to provide clear information for designers, their clients, and consumers. It spells out the ecological cost of materials and structures in terms of raw materials and how they are obtained, the energy costs of manufacture, transport and installation, durability and the possibilities of recycling. In many cases the authors suggest less damaging alternative materials and techniques, and they highlight the worst current practices including the importation of non-renewable tropical hardwoods, toxic chemicals, andCFC's, still wideley used in the manufacture of foams for the building industry." Hope this helps you. Paul O'Connor MRIAI Pierce & O'Connor Architects, Dublin, Ireland ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 14:25:07 +1000 From: "Jarrett Drake" Subject: GBlist: Friendly Building Materials G'Day all, As a student at university in Melbourne,Australia I am doing a study on ecological building practices, I would like to put together a reasonably comprehensive booklet on building materials. I have noticed that there is a lot of information out there on the web about various environmentally friendly materials, but I have yet to see anything which looks at all building materials - conventional and alternative. Also I have not seen much in the way of information on my part of the world. I would like to compile a list of materials used in building which begins with raw materials (wood, metal, petroleum, straw, earth, etc) and how they are used, and then goes on to list composite materials. For each material I would like to discuss how it is used, where it comes from, what it's strengths and weaknesses are for common uses, what it's environmental effects are, how long it will last, what alternatives are available, etc. Thanks, Jarrett Drake - drakey@mail.enternet.com.au +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Pierce & O'Connor Architects, t: (+353 1) 8308856 79, Eccles Street, f: (+353 1) 8302039 Dublin 7, e: oconnor@iol.ie Ireland h: http://ireland.iol.ie/~oconnor +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 22:02:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA29124 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 22:02:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15326; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 21:49:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 21:45:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14954 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 21:45:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14950 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 21:45:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip21.ivnet.net [206.101.73.181]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05075; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:50:47 -0700 Message-ID: <35735A17.C3B5815A@ivnet.net> Date: Mon, 01 Jun 1998 18:49:11 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: "David F. Lambertson" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Concealed Fastener Metal Roof References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3514 > Sacie: I've been using a metal roofing product with a Kynar finish. This is a fluorocarbon-based finish which is guaranteed (by different manufacturers) for 20 to 30-years against fading, and should last at least 50 years altogether. I've been using it on 24 gauge steel, but 22 gauge is also available, mostly back East. A friend of mine has an extrusion machine, which takes a 16" sheet of steel and forms it into a 12" concealed fastener pan. Any lengths can be extruded, right at the job. This minimises waste. This particular machine also stamps out little slots for the screws to go into, which allows the panels to expand and contract seasonally without loosening the fasteners. This is especially helpful for long pans. Should cost about $2.5 to $3.5 per square foot, installed. Depends on the complexity of the roof. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 1 23:14:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03349 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 23:14:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA18171; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 23:02:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Jun 1998 22:58:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17864 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 22:58:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17859 for ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 22:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 23:04:12 -0400 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF1355B2@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: GBlist: Introduction to Green Building Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 14:13:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3515 Hello all, Does anyone know where I can find a short (one to two page) introduction to Green Building/Sustainable Construction that I can use to explain to my co-workers what Green Building is all about? Thanks, Drew ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Drew George, Green Building Champion Bovis Construction Corp 11 Lincoln Parkway, Annapolis MD 21401 Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 00:57:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA10119 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:57:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA21310; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:45:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:41:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA20955 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:40:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA20949 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:40:50 -0400 (EDT) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: from ANovelli@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1WGWa14533; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:48:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <447b08e9.35738419@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 00:48:24 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: ANovelli@aol.com, dcat@azstarnet.com, Strawnet@aol.com, jjoyce@azstarnet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: re "Stop all environmental progress" Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3516 Fellow listers, I wasn't really surprised to dig this up, though I thought this thread was speaking more in generalities about the resistance to the green movement. I hope this helps answer the original post. Best wishes, Tony Novelli DCAT, Tucson, AZ ________________________ Printed in Tehipite Topics, the Sierra Club June newsletter for Tehipite Chapter in central California: TEACHERS AND SCHOOL CHILDREN TARGETED AS PAWNS IN INDUSTRY PLOT TO THWART CLIMATE CHANGE TREATY Adapted/edited by Trista Claxton from a National Environmental Trust press release authored by Peter Kelly On April 26, 1998, The New York Times reported a secret multimillion dollar plot hatched by the American Petroleum Institute-on behalf of Exxon, Chevron, and an assortment of right-wing and industry front groups-to block the global warming treaty by such means as "recruiting aand training" scientists and teachers to spread junk science to the publid. Philip E. Clapp, president of National Environmental Trust (NET), commented: "This is exactly what the tobacco industry did for years-push industry-funded junk science to convince the public that there was no connection between smoking and cancer. Now the fossil fuel industry is doing the same thing, to deceive Americans into believing that there's no connection between their burning oil and coal, and the clear and present danger to our climate. Internal API memos and the industry plan itself, which NET provided to the New York Times, are available to you immediately on the home page of NET at http://www.envirotrust.com. Among other things the oil industry plan proposes to: * Spend $5 million over two years to set up a "Global Climate Science Data Center," and persuade the media, legislators and the public that it is an objective source of information; * "Identify, recruit, and train" a core group of five previously independent scientists, and hand-pick other scientists "whose research in this field supports our position"; * Set up a new front group to put industry propaganda in the hands of school- children and their teachers, under the name "Science Education Task Group"; * Give out grant money "for advocacy on climate science" and for "research contracts that may be deemed appropriate"; * Plant a story questioning climate science with ABC correspondent John Stossel or another national TV journalist. Contrary to what industry plotters would like to convey to the public, the overwhelming consensus among thousands of scientists worldwide-who perform independent, peer-reviewed work-is that climate change is real, dangerous, and underway. This scientific consensus is captured in the recent reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (created by governments explicitly to investigate the state of climate science), and in a statement signed by more than 103 of the world's living Nobel Laureates in Science. In addition, 6 Nobel prize-winning economists and more than 2,000 of their colleagues signed a statement which says that appropriate strategies to reduce greenhouse emissions could actually improve the economy of the United States. Schoolchildren are targeted by a proposal to use the National Science Teachers Association "and other influential science education organizations" to "develop school materials that present a credible, balanced picture of climate science for use in classrooms nationwide" (p.7). A spokeswoman for the science teachers association told NET that it would do nothing like that without the approval of its board of directors. But the memo reveals that the plotters also plan to send their materials directly to schools. In addition, they propose to recruit local companies and astroturf groups to place materials in their schools. The industry plan to undermine confidence in climate science says it is designed specifically "to prevent progress toward implementation at the Buenos Aires meeting in November...and to erect a barrier against further efforts," especially by indoctrinating the teachers and students (p.6). It threatens that: "These tactics will be undertaken between now and the next climate meeting in Buenos Aires, Argentina, in November 1998, and will be continued thereafter, as appropriate" (p.4). Sources: New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com) National Environmental Trust (http://www.envirotrust.com) Union of Concerned Scientists (http://www.ucsusa.org) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 01:20:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA11531 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA22117; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:08:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:04:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA21694 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:04:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (root@wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA21683 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:04:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip209.efn.org [204.214.97.209]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA29462; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 22:09:58 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert Bolman" To: "greenbuilding" , "Terry Brennan" Subject: Re: GBlist: finishing an old garage Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 21:18:42 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8ddd$86c3a720$LocalHost@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3517 >What's your climate like?? > Terry I live in Eugene, Oregon. It rains a lot but very little of it is wind driven. The siding is already up. It's an existing garage. I would love to be able to put Tyvek under the siding, but can't. That's why I'm considering putting strips of it in each stud bay with with the edges turned in. I know it wouldn't be the same as the way Tyvek is meant to be installed, but it would keep the rain from saturating parts of the celulose insulation. Is that what you had in mind? Thanks, Robert Bolman > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 01:20:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA11570 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:20:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA22148; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:04:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA21726 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:04:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (root@wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA21718 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:04:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip209.efn.org [204.214.97.209]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA29509; Mon, 1 Jun 1998 22:10:12 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert Bolman" To: "Jean Gallagher" , Subject: Re: GBlist: APPLES AND ORANGES Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 21:55:23 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd8de2$a6f8f220$LocalHost@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id BAA21721 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3518 Jean Gallagher wrote: >It's like with the tobacco executives. We don't need to try and >understand "their" position; they are liars and we all know it. They are >evil people who will do anything for money. I used to attend peace & justice protest actions in San Francisco that would often consist of a police barracade with police in riot gear on one side. The other side would often be dominated by punky, young guys hurling obscenities at the police. When it started to look like that I usually went home. That kind of activism does nobody any good. Indeed, it causes a lot of other well-meaning people to not want to get involved. Obviously, the net actions of many corporate executives and politicians are very sinister indeed. But calling them liars and evil people is not going to do any good - especially when they and all the people that they associate with don't believe that. They all get up in the morning, look at themselves in the mirror and sincerely believe that their behavior is acceptable. Indeed, they consider themselves to be great men - leaders of the world economic order, etc. They weren't like this when they first got a job as a stock room boy. It took decades for them to be systematically groomed and conditioned to embrace their beliefs. But now their entire careers and lives have been structured around a belief system that they're holding onto with a death grip. They are "sane" enough to have a driver's lisense and credit cards, but in a very selective, specialized way, they are out of their minds. They are in blind, screaming, shit house DENIAL. So, with that in mind, I prefer not to think of them as liars or evil people. I think of them as very powerful, yet misguided people. It must be a weird place to find oneself. They need our compassion. They need to learn some humilidy - to accept the possibility that they might be wrong. As activists, we need to be talking a lot more about the concept outlined above - especially given that the same basic principle applies to virtually all of us in our day to day lives and beliefs. For world peace and environmental sanity to be achieved, we don't necessarily need for an "age of enlightenment" to decend upon earth. We don't need to go around embracing strangers on the street like brothers and sisters (although that would be nice). What would probably work would be a slight increase in our general ability to see what's in front of our eyes. Robert Bolman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 03:37:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA19336 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 03:37:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA25560; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 03:24:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 03:18:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA25202 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 03:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fep6.mail.ozemail.net (fep6.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA25198 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 03:17:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from COMPUTER (slmel65p17.ozemail.com.au [203.108.11.17]) by fep6.mail.ozemail.net (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA01131 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:26:08 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:26:08 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <199806020726.RAA01131@fep6.mail.ozemail.net> X-Sender: graaph@ozemail.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: graaph design Subject: GBlist: Apples can be oranges Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3519 Jean, Fred, Nehemiah, Sacie and others, "Apples and Oranges are the same, .....at least from a certain point of view." Both fruits are from trees, both are grown for profit, both are chemically treated, both are genetically tampered with to create a more physically attractive and longer lasting fruit. Both are grown with the view of short term gain and maximum profit, both are grown with little regard to the longer term effects on health and the environment. Similar views to that of the small tobacco farmer, or for that matter, the evil tobacco executive. Sell more oil, sell more tobacco, sell more oranges, sell more apples,.......see a pattern here? The disinformation campaign on issues such as public health, the environment and the economy have been running since "Adam was a Boy". Multi-national corporations, governments, media and others, manipulate science fact to misinform, discredit, misdirect and confuse the General Public (Consumers/Citizens). The one thing i have learned over the years, "is question everything"and take nothing for granted, seek as much diverse information on issues as possible, and know and understand your enemy, for through that knowledge and understanding will come the tools to expose and defeat them. Phew! that feels better, so ends the sermon from down under. Geoff Hoare CEO Graaph Design Melbourne Australia. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 07:59:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA03712 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA00205; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:47:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:43:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA29932 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA29923 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:43:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id HAA26596 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 07:51:30 -0400 Message-id: <3495074@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 02 Jun 98 07:51:39 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: re "Stop all environmental progress" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3520 --- You wrote: Any ideas on creating useful dialog that might bridge the differences in perspective between us & them? Nehemiah's suggestion, that we try to at least glimpse the perspective from the other side of the debate before lashing out with broad sweeps of condemnation, seems pretty sensible to me. --- end of quote --- As a long time lasher out with broad sweeps of condemnation, I offer my current experiment: As I go into a meeting or discussion with people who I expect to hold a viewpoint contrary to my own, I look around the room at each person, and while looking at each, I tell myself, this person is me. What this means is that 1 - if everything in the universe is really connected, then this is true 2 - the parts of myself that I can't accept I project onto other people, so they are playing a role I won't play, even though I contain it. This is not easy to do but it has been proving effective for me. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 08:04:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA04006 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:04:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA00586; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:52:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:48:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA00260 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA00247 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:48:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA04972; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 05:55:41 -0600 Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 05:55:40 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Warren C. Liebold" Cc: "R. Scott Waterman" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Value of GreenHouse Gases In-Reply-To: <345141A7.CE87DD93@waonline.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3521 Who is doing the most current work in this field? I am also interested in the relative rating of the environmental impact of the various greenhouse gases. Thank you for any leads. Jorg Ostrowski _________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Warren C. Liebold wrote: > > "Environmental Costs of Electricity" (1990) edited by the Pace > University Center for Environmental Legal Studies, Oceana > Publications...has about 50 pages on the subject. > There's an increasing amount written on environmental externalities > worth reading. > > Warren Liebold > wliebold@waonline.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 08:10:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA04339 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:10:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA00924; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:54:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA00656 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:54:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (rcpublic1.nahbrc.org [207.49.88.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA00652 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:54:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM by rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ea046128 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 07:58:54 -0400 From: "Peter Yost" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:02:30 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: job posting X-Info: NT Mail Server Message-Id: <14585432807435@NAHBRC.ORG> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3522 Please respond directly to Heather as listed below. Thanks for your interest. Peter Yost, Program Manager - Environmental Systems Construction Research Analyst Residential construction research firm seeks personnel for homebuilding-related field and office research. Good writing, speaking, and presentation skills a must. Tasks include working with builders on innovative building systems, materials, and techniques. Background in environmental issues including energy efficiency, water conservation, and indoor air quality is desirable. Excellent work environment with some travel. Send resume, references, and salary history to: CODE: PAY, H. Fanning, NAHB Research Center, 400 Prince George's Blvd., Upper Marlboro, MD 20774. email: hfanning@nahbrc.org. EOE M/F/H/V. Heather H. Fanning hfanning@nahbrc.org Personnel Administrator NAHB Research Center, Inc. 301-249-4000 x520 http://www.nahbrc.org Peter Yost pyost@nahbrc.org 301-249-4000 x542 http://www.nahbrc.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 08:17:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA04738 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:17:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01314; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:01:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01039 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:01:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01035 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:01:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.201.82] (usr2a21.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.21]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA23298; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:09:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF1355B2@WASNT1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:09:55 -0400 To: "George, Drew" From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Introduction to Green Building Cc: "'GreenBuilding List'" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3523 Hi Drew, I've found it quite hard to come up with a short summary that works for everyone, because the aspects I would want to emphasize are different depending on the audience (architects, builders, engineers, owners), and on the building type. It would still be a great thing to have, though. I lieu of that, we have a two-page checklist of key issues in green building that we distribute widely. It's also available on our Web site at: http://www.ebuild.com/Orders/Checklist.html I hope this helps, Nadav Malin At 2:13 PM -0400 6/1/98, George, Drew wrote: >Hello all, > >Does anyone know where I can find a short (one to two page) introduction >to Green Building/Sustainable Construction that I can use to explain to >my co-workers what Green Building is all about? > >Thanks, Drew >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >--- >Drew George, Green Building Champion >Bovis Construction Corp >11 Lincoln Parkway, Annapolis MD 21401 >Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 09:37:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09567 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:37:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04233; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:25:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:21:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03924 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:21:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03920 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:21:06 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id JrV00430; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 09:28:03 EDT To: gartht@lcc.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:36:47 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiber optic lighting Message-ID: <19980602.084354.-916495.0.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.07 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 4-5,8-9,12-13,18-25,28-29,31-35,42-48,52-53,56-57,62-63,68-101 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3524 I didn't see the broadcast that you mention but fiber optic lighting systems for pools and other applications have been available from companies like Supervision and Fiber Stars for a long long time. The issue is that the product has (to date) been costly and suffers from poor distribution. It would not surprise me to learn that another company has created a canned package and is marketing it more competitively. The traditional manufacturers need their cages shaken a bit. As a contractor who has performed numerous installations I can tell that the product has enormous potential and is truly sexy. Following is a brief explanation on fiber optics lighting. First of all, let me say that you can do some very exotic and ordinary things with fiber optic lighting that you cannot do with conventional lighting. Fiber optic lighting is a absolutely fantastic product for accent and specialty lighting but we would not use it for general illumination. Some of the more interesting applications for this technology include: Active signs and displays. Over head constellation and star field lighting displays. Accent lighting around bars, counters, stairways, and room mood lighting. Pool and hot tub area lighting. And the list goes on and on. In fact the only limitation for the application of fiber optic lighting is your imagination and it has been used often in motion pictures and in active art work. The rule of thumb concerning fiber is that there are three basic components in the system: 1. illuminator - light source 2. fiber optic cable bundle - clear acrylic plastic strands 3. fixtures - may or may not be required Most illuminators can accept a maximum of 300 fiber strands up to 100 feet in length. Of course, less fiber can be used. Larger fiber cable sizes do limit the number of strands that can be attached to a illuminator. Illuminators must be mounted in a vented space. Fiber optic cable comes in various sizes and can be end emitting (insulated) or side emitting (raw plastic). Fixtures can be used to focus and direct beams of light but are not absolutely required. Fiber sizes range from 3/16" to 9/16" for raw fiber. 3/16" to 5/16" for semi-shielded. OD of 0.14" to 0.74" for shielded. OD of 0.59" for fire rated. Illuminators costs start around $200 (75W) and can go up to $2500 for outdoor rated. Fiber optic cable is averaging about $13.00 a foot. These prices do fluctuate according to current market conditions and product availability. Fiber is completely safe underwater or in most applications. Color wheels are available for the illuminator and are used to change or vary the light color. We should pay special attention to where the illuminator will be located. Power requirements are 110VAC. Location is important because the illuminator has a cooling fan on board (makes about as much noise as PC fan) and it does require ventilation. Some high wattage illuminators (300 Watt +) use halogen light bulbs which can get very hot. The distance from a secure, dry, vented, accessible illuminator location to the actual end point of light will determine the amount of fiber cable required. Make sure you include any bends and turns. ( We should not bend a fiber optic cable any more than ninety (90) degrees.) This will tell us how long your fiber optic cable must be. On Mon, 01 Jun 1998 15:53:01 -0500 Kim Travis writes: >Hi, >Last thursday night on HGTV I caught part of a program that showed >using >fiber optic lighting in thier swimming pools. I was interupted and >did >not get the name of the company. They did say that they have a yard >package out on the market and that they are working on a package for >the >home. I would really like to find out more about this system. Just >imagine only using one bulb to light your whole house. If anyone >knows >anything about this, please let me know. > >Thank you >Kim Travis > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7147 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.sbtdesigns.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 10:07:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11403 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06349; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:55:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:51:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05947 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05939 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:51:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from choplifter.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@choplifter.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.90]) by donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id JAA20709; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by choplifter.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with SMTP id JAA11396; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:59:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:59:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@choplifter.rs.itd.umich.edu Reply-To: Peter Reppe To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" cc: "Warren C. Liebold" , "R. Scott Waterman" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Value of GreenHouse Gases In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3525 Jorg, I've got a list of GWP (global warming potential) weighting factors for various gases, and for other env'l impact categories (e.g., acidification, ozone depletion...). This list comes from the Dutch publication Environmental Life Cyle Assessment of Products, and is widely used in the Life Cycle Assessment comunity. I can fax you the two pages relevant to the greenhouse gases if you want me to. Best, Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greening-of-Dana homepage http://www.snre.umich.edu/greendana/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Reppe e-mail: reppe@umich.edu National Pollution Prevention Center phone : 734-936-2535 University of Michigan fax : 734-647-5841 430 E. University Ann Arbor, MI http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub 48109-1115 U.S.A. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reppe -------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 2 Jun 1998, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Who is doing the most current work in this field? I am also interested in > the relative rating of the environmental impact of the various greenhouse > gases. Thank you for any leads. Jorg Ostrowski > _________________________________________________________________________ > On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Warren C. Liebold wrote: > > > > "Environmental Costs of Electricity" (1990) edited by the Pace > > University Center for Environmental Legal Studies, Oceana > > Publications...has about 50 pages on the subject. > > There's an increasing amount written on environmental externalities > > worth reading. > > > > Warren Liebold > > wliebold@waonline.com > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 10:47:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA13678 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08268; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:35:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:30:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07857 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:30:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07840 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:30:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from choplifter.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@choplifter.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.90]) by donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id KAA28038 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by choplifter.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with SMTP id KAA17118 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:38:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:38:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@choplifter.rs.itd.umich.edu To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: board-meter conversion factor Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3526 Would someone on this list be able to give me the conversion factor from the British "board metre" to a metric or US unit of volume? I just can't seem to find it anywhere (even contacted the US Forest Service, Forest Products Lab). Thanks a lot. Best, Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greening-of-Dana homepage http://www.snre.umich.edu/greendana/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Reppe e-mail: reppe@umich.edu National Pollution Prevention Center phone : 734-936-2535 University of Michigan fax : 734-647-5841 430 E. University Ann Arbor, MI http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub 48109-1115 U.S.A. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reppe -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 11:03:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14630 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10048; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:51:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:47:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09244 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:46:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09232 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:46:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KJJ20700; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 10:53:56 EDT To: nadav@ebuild.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 16:53:52 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Daylighting for energy saving Message-ID: <19980602.105836.6574.7.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <1.5.4.32.19980528224412.006a1100@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3527 Nadav, Thanks, I found it in my back issue. PS it's vol4, #3 not Vol 3 #4.(1994). _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 11:03:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14682 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10110; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:47:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09293 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:47:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09286 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KJI20700; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 10:53:56 EDT To: moxvox@pcisys.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:00:03 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Re: off-gassing Message-ID: <19980602.105836.6574.6.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199805310344.VAA18524@kramer.pcisys.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,7-8,14-15,17,20-21,23 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3528 Sara, Thanks for asking, but I must honestly bow out on this one. It is not because of Hal - in fact I appreciate him playing watchdog because I learn from such postings. The reason is that radiant floor heating systems are something I know virtually nothing about. We don't have call for heating in Florida and when I lived in the north the systems were not yet in general use. I will say this, research at the University of Florida has determined that heat increases the rate of outgassing. That is probably the theory behind baking out a building. The research was to show that such was not feasible here because of the affect of the humidity which inhibits the removal of outgassing. Since you live in a cooling climate perhaps "airing out" would be an option for you. This is the best I can offer since, as I mentioned, radiant heating is something I have no experience with. I didn't even think you could do it on an upper floor or under plywood. All the installations I seen videos on were in a poured slab. Sorry for the lack of help on this one but believe me, it is not due to Hal. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 11:04:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14765 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10275; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:52:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:48:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09399 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:47:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09382 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:47:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KJH20700; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 10:53:56 EDT To: hlevin@cruzio.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:53:37 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Re: Laquer Message-ID: <19980602.105836.6574.5.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <000901bd8b28$78a3df00$985de3a5@mbay152.cruzio.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4,7-8,14-15,18,20-21,24,26-31 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3529 Hal et al., Please do not let my response deter you from replying or posting to the list. Believe me, I was not in the least offended. I hope I am mature enough to accept that, in fact, I do not know, nor ever can know, enough. Learning is a lifelong profession and that which keeps the brain from atrophy. One of the best ways I learn is from my mistakes. I admit I am prone to trying to help, sometimes without sufficient information, which can lead to gross generalization. I also tend to talk in shorthand so when I posted about the adhesives, I should have qualified it by saying that the majority of outgassing occurs in 24 hours - not complete. One of the adhesives I was referring to was the Taylor line, by the way. As I said, I am a single practitioner with the added burden of a home and family to maintain. Unlike the luxury most men have, I have no spare time after hours so my research and study is usually done in moments I can steal from other things like sleep. Sorry for the above rant, but the fact remains, I appreciate rather than resent your posts. I wish I could take time out to spend some time to study with you, as you have been in this field a lot longer than I and have much more experience. I do hope I can count on you to "keep me honest" and not give up on the list. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, Fl _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 11:53:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17877 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13069; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:41:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:36:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12533 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:36:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12512 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:36:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust27.tnt2.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.31.27]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id KAA22031; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:43:16 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35741E3D.6557@gte.net> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 11:46:05 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Wind Energy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3530 Jorg, The American Wind Energy Association has a good website at http://www.igc.org/awea/ You can contact Paul Gipe through the mail function or perhaps find the information you are looking for directly on the site. Cindy http://sustainable.state.fl.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 11:54:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17918 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:54:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13174; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:37:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12622 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:37:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12616 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:37:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:42:59 -0400 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF1355B4@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Cc: "Kelly, Michele" , "'Doug Gehley, AIA'" , "'Suzanne Parmalee, AIA'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Introduction to Green Building Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:41:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3531 Nadav, Thanks for the information. Re: your "nice to have" comment, I agree 100% and am a little surprised USGBC, RMI or EBN have not compiled a neat, little, persuasive document that I could "Reuse". (I am afraid my emphasis on Resource Efficiency is starting to appear like laziness). Regarding the audience: I am trying to build Green Building awareness within my company and have an excellent opportunity right now as our region president, (responsible for probably 700 million dollars worth of commercial construction annually) wants to learn more. He is looking for something that he can send to everyone in our company. Regarding the building type: Most of our work is commercial ranging in value from 1 to 40 million dollars. My thoughts on what would be attractive about GreenBuilding to this audience. Green Building is... Resource Efficient building Focusing g on Long Term Benefits rather than solely on First Cost A way to differentiate Bovis from less innovative builders A indication of Bovis' strong sense of responsibility to the community Good publicity! (for Bovis and our Clients) A challenge to see how creative Bovis can be regarding everyday processes such as, how we view the material that comes out of our renovation projects: "Construction Waste Management" or "Resource Recovery" ? An opportunity to learn about new materials and construction processes An opportunity to "Make a Difference" on a daily basis Some things may be "less important" right now (emphasis on right now) as we (normally) have less impact on things like IAQ and mechanical systems than the designers and specifiers. I am certain I have left out some (many?) benefits that the listers may want to weigh in with. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Drew George, Green Building Champion Bovis Construction Corp 11 Lincoln Parkway, Annapolis MD 21401 Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 > ---------- > From: Nadav Malin[SMTP:nadav@ebuild.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 1998 8:09 AM > To: George, Drew > Cc: 'GreenBuilding List' > Subject: Re: GBlist: Introduction to Green Building > > Hi Drew, > > I've found it quite hard to come up with a short summary that works > for > everyone, because the aspects I would want to emphasize are different > depending on the audience (architects, builders, engineers, owners), > and on > the building type. It would still be a great thing to have, though. > > I lieu of that, we have a two-page checklist of key issues in green > building that we distribute widely. It's also available on our Web > site at: > > http://www.ebuild.com/Orders/Checklist.html > > I hope this helps, > > Nadav Malin > > At 2:13 PM -0400 6/1/98, George, Drew wrote: > >Hello all, > > > >Does anyone know where I can find a short (one to two page) > introduction > >to Green Building/Sustainable Construction that I can use to explain > to > >my co-workers what Green Building is all about? > > > >Thanks, Drew > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- > >--- > >Drew George, Green Building Champion > >Bovis Construction Corp > >11 Lincoln Parkway, Annapolis MD 21401 > >Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 > > Environmental Building News > the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & > construction > 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 > (fax) > http://www.ebuild.com > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 11:59:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18244 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13598; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:46:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:42:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13263 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:42:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13254 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:42:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LmL20700; Tue, 02 Jun 1998 11:50:21 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:34:20 -0700 Subject: GBlist: SIP article in EBN Message-ID: <19980602.115508.6574.9.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,10-14,16-20 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3532 Alex or Nadav, I read with interest the article in the current EBN regarding SIP's. I have a client who will be building in the near future and I am working with her architect. Though I don't usually get involved in the construction of the shell, I will be in this case since she is also a friend and very involved in local environmental issues. My question is what is the comparison between the SIPs vs products like Blue Max or Ice Block? Of concern are the following: insulation efficiency, cost, and most important hurricane resistance. Thanks. PS: Sorry my postings came in so late - problems with the Juno central computers. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 12:08:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA18823 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:08:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14255; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:56:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:52:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13873 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:51:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.39]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13863 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:51:46 -0400 (EDT) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id EQVBa08946; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:53:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <87385a3d.3574200e@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:53:49 EDT To: reppe@umich.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: board-meter conversion factor Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3533 I have a pretty extensive library on unit conversions, including a 100-page set of conversions published in Canada, but don't find "board meter" anywhere. Maybe it's a "bored meter", because somebody conserved so much energy, it's not seeing any action. Turn on the all the lights, the air conditioning, and all the motors, and maybe this will solve the problem. :) Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 108 S. Albany St. Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX IMSHAPIRO@AOL.COM "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 12:19:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA19625 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:19:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14930; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:07:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:03:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14540 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:03:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (astrovan.cstone.net [205.197.102.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14536 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:03:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Dialin1030.cstone.net ([204.71.8.30]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-44989U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA25211 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:11:29 -0400 Message-ID: <35742407.1D34@cstone.net> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 12:10:47 -0400 From: tfisher@cstone.net (Ths. Fisher) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Solar Chimney Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3534 A request. I'm looking for resources / publications that explain the use of a Solar Chimney for ventilation. Any suggestions? We have a large greenhouse type room that is to use natural ventilation. The best I've found on the web is on the greenbuilder site. I'm open to knowing about books, articles and consultants as well. Has anyone here actually built one that works well in a climate such as the mid Atlantic region? Thanks! Tom Fisher -- Thomas A. Fisher, AIA Architectural Design & Environmental Design Collaborative http://www.cstone.net/edc/index1.htm (804) 977-1910 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 12:35:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20643 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:35:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16106; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:19:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15667 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15654 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 12:19:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id JAA14772 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:27:49 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 2 Jun 1998 09:24:11 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: EXECUTIVES To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA15655 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3535 Robert, I agree with you that "calling [guilty executives and politicians] liars and evil doesn't do any good." We should instead try to see to it that they go to jail, where, possibly, removal from their immediate support system might allow them to see the error of their ways. And I agree that hurling obscenities at the barricades doesn't do any good. (Or yelling in general, for that matter, even though it feels good.) But does the answer lie in retreating to the no-responsibility stance you advocate? (Th e greedy executive slowly and through NO FAULT OF HIS OWN replaces the innocent stock boy.) I don't know, maybe we agree more than we think or know, but it seems to me that the answer is somewhere between lock-em-up-and-throw-away-the-key, and peace-and-love-for-all. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 14:56:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00917 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25029; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:43:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:39:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24642 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:39:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24638 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:39:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek (sA6-p33.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.161]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA10293 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 14:48:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35744788.141@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 14:42:16 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: EXECUTIVES References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3536 Jean Gallagher wrote: > "But does the answer lie in retreating to the no-responsibility stance you advocate?" I didn't read that in Robert's post, he seemed to be advocating well considered, intelligent action, inplace unbridled, over-emotional vitriol. I have often been swayed by intelligent, well documented, compelling evidence, presented in a reasonable and moderate tone. I have never changed my behavior in response to someone hurling insults and diatribe at me. What these corporations seem to be proposing certainly can be classified as repugnant and reprehensible, I don't think either Nehemiah or Robert were proposing acquiescence. Rather, I took them to be saying that human relations being what they are, educating your opponents is always more effective than aienating them further. These corporations wield an immense amount of power over our futures and that isn't going to be changed by assaulting them on on a personal and emotional level. Chuck Hinckley "God save me from evangelists." Dolph Norquist ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 18:07:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA14136 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 18:07:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06392; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:54:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:49:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05915 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:49:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05910 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:49:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA21019 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:57:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dsy16.vineyard.net(206.166.158.74) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma020951; Tue Jun 2 17:57:03 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 18:03:23 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: EXECUTIVES & Stop env. progress Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3537 Maybe you just gotta love 'em while you're lockin' 'em up. I think a piece of what Marc R. was saying (and only a piece) is what Ben Franklin said in somewhat more accessible words: "Love your enemies, for they tell you your faults." John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 22:42:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA12281 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:42:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16284; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:29:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:25:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15997 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:24:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15993 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:24:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id VAA0000006028; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 21:33:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980603023549.006cf260@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 21:35:49 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Poly under an interior brick floor? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3538 A new question: for the laying of a new brick floor on the interior of a building, would you lay poly on top of the ground? Details: one foot of well insulated stem wall to be filled in 6 inch layers with coarse 'ag lime', well watered and thoroughly and systematically stomped on, like those ladies and the grapes, allowed to dry between layers, on top of which goes 1 inch of concrete sand and then brick, carefully laid. The foundation for this is well compacted earth. That is where I propose putting a 6 mil poly and, as well, 2'x 2" R8 foam board around the perimeter. The method comes from a very good stone mason around here, one who has successfully laid lots of brick floors. He recommends using a hose to well wet the ag lime before stomping on it. I am worried about the effect of a lot of water and no place to go. (We're in a super hot and dry season here in the Lawrence Kansas area) My stone mason knows nothing about vapor barriers. Thanks for comments, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 2 23:22:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA14283 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:22:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17684; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:06:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17353 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:06:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17343 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:06:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.21] (blf21.acadia.net [205.217.217.21]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA22734 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:15:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:15:15 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Speak Truth to Power Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3539 To the best of my knowledge, Mahatma Gandhi did not make a habit of yelling, or of demonizing those with whom he disagreed. But he spoke truth to power, bluntly and with great force. It is not comfortable to tell someone, "You are complicit in destroying the natural systems upon which all life depends, and you must stop it." Still, it needs to be said, over and over. But before you add the phrase, "You rotten fascist pig", remember that you're talking to your own reflection. Marc wrote one of the wisest things I've read in years - "That person is me." The dismaying thing is that I have to acknowledge that's true even when I think of Hitler. I know that every rotten selfish evil trait I've ever seen in a corporate executive is also in me. The only reason I've escaped the worst of their fate is because a few key people spoke truth to me at critical times. We can all return this favor. It won't stop evil, but it can help prevent its spread. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 00:05:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA16452 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 00:05:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA19027; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:49:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18749 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:49:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18743 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust35.tnt12.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.33.35]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA09468; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 20:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3574C9D0.3033@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 20:58:08 -0700 From: David Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Speak Truth to Power References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3540 David M. Foley wrote: > But before you add the phrase, "You > rotten fascist pig", remember that you're talking to your own reflection. > > Marc wrote one of the wisest things I've read in years - "That person is > me." The dismaying thing is that I have to acknowledge that's true even > when I think of Hitler. > I thank you all for coming forth with words of maturity and depth. I will remember Marc's guidelines for viewing adversaries. I remember the outrage I felt at R Reagan's villifying others (Khomeni, Khadafi, Sandanista's...you can fill in the blank) which served to make our own country appear good in comparison. Ascribing evil to others is a way of hiding from one's own shadow. ...then I realised that I was doing to Reagan exactly that which I hated him for. It was sobering. "When you point your finger at someone, remember that you have three fingers pointing back at yourself." Seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 01:20:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA20637 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA21310; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:07:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:02:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA20924 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:02:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA20920 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:02:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (usr2.cwo.com [207.173.173.12]) by mail.cwo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA30722 for ; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:14:10 -0700 Message-Id: <199806030514.WAA30722@mail.cwo.com> Reply-To: From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #197 Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:05:59 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3541 Jean, "Nehemiah, "Let me get this straight: When we find out about a group of business people who want to hire phony scientists to lie about global warming, so that said business people can continue fucking things up for money, we shouldn't condemn them, we should try to GET TO KNOW AND UNDERSTAND THEM?" Yes!! How else to expect to change someone's actions? Really change them? ... by assuming they have nothing but sinister and greedy motives? If they did not have a belief system that justified, to themselves, that what they are doing is much better for society than what they think YOU are doing, do you think they would long continue? If you take the time to understand their drivers, you are more likely to affect their decisions. If fact, I guarantee that if you don't, you won't. "Are you interested in buying the Golden Gate Bridge, too?" No thanks. I don't have anything that large to cross over. Nehemiah ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 02:01:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA23823 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 02:01:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA22305; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:45:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA22076 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:45:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA22072 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA23413; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:50:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3574E40A.9D3EBA06@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 22:50:02 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Speak Truth to Power References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3542 I liked these comments David and I'm enjoying this discussion, partly because it contrasts sharply with a slightly more abstract one a while ago on free market forces etc. I too thought Mark's comments were great. Reminded me of my thoughts about my neighbours when I first moved to where I am now - an incredibly strange unwholesome group of individuals I thought (and still generally do) but I've grown to like many of them immensely and have been unsettled by the reality of community forming out of such disparity. I would not however extend this aspect of community in formation to a global scale. Its formed by proximity by landscape and by children (or generations). And even within community there is always a need for -strong- critique and words and especially if the critique is reflected. In most cultures there has always been a place for some reflection of some of our more unwholesome practices. In the local salish culture where I live they have a clown character that keeps people in line by direct means. If someone seems overly fond of a necklace this person will walk around with pieces of garbage strung around their neck. There is a story about a pastor in a local 'mission' church who insisted that native people come to church in non-traditional formal western clothing so the 'clown' arrived wearing a top hat and nothing else, paraded around and left and so did everyone else. I'm sure the pastor was offended but it strengthened the community. I guess what I'm trying to say is that sometimes it is appropriate to say 'rotten fascist pig' because most days for most things that truly matter, it is 'rotten', the system that maintains it can be described as 'fascist' it and it is unholy or unclean (closest thing I can think of for the pig reference) The hardest part of this is that the description is of something I am very much part of and very complicit with and have increasingly less sense (as I grow older) of how to significantly change 'it'. The other funny thing is (as I grow older) I look more for critique. I do not think this is a negative process, I think it is how we define what is of value and as I grow more aware that my time is limited the process itself becomes the value. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. David M. Foley wrote: > To the best of my knowledge, Mahatma Gandhi did not make a habit of > yelling, or of demonizing those with whom he disagreed. But he spoke truth > to power, bluntly and with great force. > > It is not comfortable to tell someone, "You are complicit in destroying the > natural systems upon which all life depends, and you must stop it." Still, > it needs to be said, over and over. But before you add the phrase, "You > rotten fascist pig", remember that you're talking to your own reflection. > > Marc wrote one of the wisest things I've read in years - "That person is > me." The dismaying thing is that I have to acknowledge that's true even > when I think of Hitler. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 02:17:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA24602 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 02:17:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA23135; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 02:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 02:01:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA22695 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 02:00:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA22682 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 02:00:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA23672; Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:06:38 -0700 Message-ID: <3574E7B8.42CE8B46@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:05:44 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Poly under an interior brick floor? References: <1.5.4.32.19980603023549.006cf260@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3543 Hi Fill material needs to be compacted in 3" lifts. Watering can help and can achieve compaction over lots of time (and water) but in the course of construction will not replace properly compacted ground (I think it is usefull to saturate to consolidate any shifts in the 'undisturbed' ground). Compaction will tear the 's' out of the plastic, it needs to be protected at a more finished point. We have done brick floors bedded on sand for interiors and the detail was - compacted aggregate - either solid foam or perimeter with the balance in sand i.e 2-3" foam with 2-3" sand fill (this course should be run level. - poly vapour barrier (or if the foam is solid and has high enough density simply tape or foam the seams and skip the poly) - 3" sand lightly compacted and screeded level (3-1/2 is a usefull height as you can use a 2x4 as blocking to run a screed level. It is worth running solid foam and increase the thickness of the insulation at the perimeter. I say this from having done both and wishing I had consistently done the latter. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. David F. Lambertson wrote: > A new question: for the laying of a new brick floor on the interior of a > building, would you lay poly on top of the ground? Details: one foot of > well insulated stem wall to be filled in 6 inch layers with coarse 'ag > lime', well watered and thoroughly and systematically stomped on, like those > ladies and the grapes, allowed to dry between layers, on top of which goes 1 > inch of concrete sand and then brick, carefully laid. The foundation for > this is well compacted earth. That is where I propose putting a 6 mil poly > and, as well, 2'x 2" R8 foam board around the perimeter. > The method comes from a very good stone mason around here, one who > has successfully laid lots of brick floors. He recommends using a hose to > well wet the ag lime before stomping on it. I am worried about the effect > of a lot of water and no place to go. (We're in a super hot and dry season > here in the Lawrence Kansas area) My stone mason knows nothing about vapor > barriers. > Thanks for comments, Sacie Lambertson > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 07:08:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA07995 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 07:08:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA29856; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 06:56:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 06:52:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA29660 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 06:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA29656 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 06:52:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1MFWa03006 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 07:00:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4eb9a677.35752cbb@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 07:00:10 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Fwd: gas emissions/energy - Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_896871610_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 170 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3544 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_896871610_boundary Content-ID: <0_896871610@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII from another listserv but useful general info --part0_896871610_boundary Content-ID: <0_896871610@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from relay13.mx.aol.com (relay13.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.13]) by air12.mail.aol.com (v43.20) with SMTP; Wed, 03 Jun 1998 01:28:37 -0400 Received: from valley.rtpnc.epa.gov (valley.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.16]) by relay13.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id BAA16136; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:28:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from valley (valley [134.67.208.16]) by valley.rtpnc.epa.gov (8.8.7/8.8.0) with SMTP id BAA23390; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:28:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 01:28:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Errors-To: jwhitehe@erg.com Reply-To: jtrnet@valley.rtpnc.epa.gov Originator: jtrnet@unixmail.rtpnc.epa.gov Sender: jtrnet@valley.rtpnc.epa.gov Precedence: bulk From: HENRY FERLAND To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: gas emissions/energy -Reply X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas X-Comment: EPA's "Jobs Through Recycling" Grants Network Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Bob: Two good sources I know of for greenhouse gas emissions and energy data... 1) Department of Energy's Energy Information Administration -- check out their website for environmental information at . This site includes a total inventory report... 2) EPA's global warming website which includes inventory information at: Good luck, Henry Ferland, USEPA's Municipal Waste Reduction Branch --part0_896871610_boundary-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 09:51:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15845 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04524; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:35:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA04198 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:34:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f139.hotmail.com [207.82.251.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04194 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 09:34:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 3824 invoked by uid 0); 3 Jun 1998 13:42:47 -0000 Message-ID: <19980603134247.3823.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.30.47.109 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 03 Jun 1998 06:42:47 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.30.47.109] From: "A. Bambi Tran" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: RUBBLE FOUNDATIONS! please respond! Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 06:42:47 PDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3545 Since no one has responded to my posting 3 days ago, i thought i'd repeat it in hopes that SOMEONE would respond. I would like to learn the ins and outs of doing a rubble foundation for a project i am currently working on. i have many questions and would like to bounce them off someone who knows something about it and/or have done it before. Please reply asap! Thanks! A. Bambi Tran ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 10:25:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17683 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:25:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06681; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:12:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:08:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06095 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06091 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KUS20700; Wed, 03 Jun 1998 10:15:54 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:20:31 -0700 Message-ID: <19980603.102033.6430.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-8,12 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3546 Dear listers, Thanks to all those who responded to my posting to Hal with kind and gracious comments. Glad to know so many are understanding and polite. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL PS: As to the campaign of dissemination being discussed, I for one plan on taking the same action used so effectively by PETA - that of boycotting all businesses involved in the deception. Hit them in the pocketbook and they will listen. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 10:25:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17702 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:25:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06702; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:12:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:09:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06105 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:08:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06101 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:08:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id KUR20700; Wed, 03 Jun 1998 10:15:54 EDT To: weigel@satawal.cvmbs.colostate.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:16:04 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: followup -- low-flush toilet Message-ID: <19980603.102033.6430.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199806021538.JAA21903@satawal.cvmbs.colostate.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-9 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3547 Stephanie, Thanks for the info. They referred me to a local plumbing co. When I called the company they said they hadn't received the literature yet but would put me on their mailing list. Since I was given an alternate contractor, I plan to call him today. Will keep you posted. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 11:37:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22964 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:37:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11559; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:21:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA11257 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nov.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11250 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:20:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.106] (p106.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.106]) by nov.diac.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA03264 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:25:23 GMT Message-Id: <199806031525.PAA03264@nov.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: re: Brick Floor Date: Wed, 3 Jun 98 09:29:49 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3548 Sacie wrote: >A new question: for the laying of a new brick floor on the interior of a >building, would you lay poly on top of the ground? Details: one foot of >well insulated stem wall to be filled in 6 inch layers with coarse 'ag >lime', well watered and thoroughly and systematically stomped on, like those >ladies and the grapes, allowed to dry between layers, on top of which goes 1 >inch of concrete sand and then brick, carefully laid. The foundation for >this is well compacted earth. That is where I propose putting a 6 mil poly >and, as well, 2'x 2" R8 foam board around the perimeter. > The method comes from a very good stone mason around here, one who >has successfully laid lots of brick floors. He recommends using a hose to >well wet the ag lime before stomping on it. I am worried about the effect >of a lot of water and no place to go. (We're in a super hot and dry season >here in the Lawrence Kansas area) My stone mason knows nothing about vapor >barriers. Brick on sand floors are a New Mexico classic, and are still used on fine homes in Santa Fe (I've hadn't heard of them anywhere else). First, yes, definitly put plastic under the sand. If any moisture migrates up, the resulting efflorescence will look terrible and be hard to remove from the brick surface. (Likewise, apply a breathable sealer to help prevent this). Second, what's the lime for? I would be reluctant to add water under a brick floor, or any floor, although if you don't, "stomping" on the lime will not be a fun experience. If the intent is to provide a firm surface, an even layer of just sand works well, and a concrete slab works even better. Third, if your sub has had a lot of success under your local conditions, then ignore what I say and do what he says. Fourth, are you compiling a book on how to build a house? Will the GreenBuilding List share in the royalties? ;-) I personally like brick on sand floors, think you have a good idea, and admire the thoroughness of your research. Buzz Burrell Bolder Building ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 12:05:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24939 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 12:05:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13262; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:52:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:49:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12894 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:48:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12889 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:48:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id IAA30737 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 08:57:17 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 3 Jun 1998 08:52:18 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: LESSON To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id LAA12890 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3549 I guess the lesson here is: if you don't get angry, you might not do anything, but if you don't have friends to calm you down, you might do the wrong thing. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 13:43:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00176 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:43:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18636; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:31:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:26:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18094 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18089 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Cheetah (1Cust11.tnt29.sfo3.da.uu.net [208.255.80.11]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA07197 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 10:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806031735.KAA07197@germany.it.earthlink.net> X-Sender: envdiv@mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Michelle Randall Subject: Re: GBlist: LESSON Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3550 Could we change the lesson a bit? There really is no "wrong thing" that any of us can do. We all have different approaches toward achieving the same general goals, and movement toward success is a result of the synergy of our varying approaches. I offer myself as an example: I've got a Master of Business and run an environmental division in an 80-year-old lumber company. Pretty mainstream change from within the system. Would I be here without the activism of Greenpeace, RAN and Earth First! ? Absolutely not. Our passion and diversity are our strengths. Thankfully, the gift of friends calming us down keeps us sane. Michelle At 08:52 AM 6/3/98 -0700, you wrote: >I guess the lesson here is: if you don't get angry, you might not do >anything, but if you don't have friends to calm you down, you might do the >wrong thing. > >Jean ********************* Michelle Randall Division Manager - Green Building Materials Hayward Lumber 429 Front Street, Salinas, CA 93901 Tel: 408/755-8805 Fax: 408/424-3039 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 13:52:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00701 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:52:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19397; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:40:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:36:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18966 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18951 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:36:02 -0400 (EDT) From: JNH2@aol.com Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id RLEZa14705; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:43:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1d0e770b.35758b33@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:43:14 EDT To: company_b@hotmail.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: RUBBLE FOUNDATIONS! please respond! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3551 The response has been sparse simply because the discussion has meandered in other directions. Be patient, some of our experts will pour out their wisdom soon. The previous discussion around rubble foundations was not in regards to how they are done, nor what areas to pay attention to details. The original posting with that subject line was from an individual who wanted to add onto an existing rubble foundation and was seeking advise as to how to do that trick with damaging the foundation already in place. I don't think he even mentioned whether the addition would be rubble of some other material. If you have specific questions about the applicability of rubble foundations or their detailsing, why not write them in the form of a question-list and post it? It is much easier for the folks involved with this list to respond to questions rather than simply "tell all" that they may know about a particualr subject. Hang in there, it does get better and more interesting! Jim Holdcraft ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 14:19:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02704 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:19:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20884; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:07:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:03:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA20525 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20521 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:03:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id O[X20700; Wed, 03 Jun 1998 14:10:38 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:15:26 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Sustainable communities Message-ID: <19980603.141529.6430.3.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-9 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3552 GB list, Have been catching up on some of my reading. A recent mention of such communities as Civano et al made me start wondering - whatever happened with Haymount. Since EBN's coverage in '96 there seems to be little mention of that project. Anybody know what's going on there? Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 15:08:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA06215 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:07:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23729; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:51:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23334 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:51:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23330 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:51:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id OyE20700; Wed, 03 Jun 1998 14:58:40 EDT To: weigel@satawal.cvmbs.colostate.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:03:20 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: followup -- low-flush toilet Message-ID: <19980603.150323.3182.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199806021538.JAA21903@satawal.cvmbs.colostate.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-11 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3553 Stephanie, et al, Just received the cut sheet on the "Dave Barry Toilet". It is the Gerber, Aqua Saver gravity closet, models 21-700 (10") and 21-702 (12") and 21-712 (12" elongated). Western Pottery was probably your local distributor, just as Koski Plumbing is ours. Thanks again for getting me on the right track. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 15:23:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA07088 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:23:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24920; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:11:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:07:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA24478 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24474 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:07:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.98] (usr0a28.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.92]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA26607 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:15:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 15:15:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980603.141529.6430.3.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Sustainable communities Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3554 At 2:15 PM -0700 6/3/98, Beverly A. Weiter wrote: >GB list, > >Have been catching up on some of my reading. A recent mention of such >communities as Civano et al made me start wondering - whatever happened >with Haymount. Since EBN's coverage in '96 there seems to be little >mention of that project. Anybody know what's going on there? Hello Beverly, Good question. We jumped the gun a bit in reporting, back in 1996, that they were breaking ground. Or I should say that _they_ jumped the gun in announcing same. I recently spoke with developer John Clark. He says that they finally received a go-ahead on the wastewater treatment plant and he expects infrastructure to begin going in by the end of this year. Apparently, after Haymount got all of its approvals from the state for the ecological wastewater treatment plant (solar aquatic system), someone at the county level challenged it and held them up for more than two years and was going to make them spend an extra $300K for a redundant component to the system. That individual is gone and his replacement signed off on the innovative design without the extra expense. Full steam ahead, says John. (Though I doubt you'll see much more on Haymount in EBN until they've _really_ broken ground!). It will definately be a project to watch. -Alex Wilson Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 17:06:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA12286 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:06:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00693; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:54:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:50:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00334 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00329 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.4.253.38] (uA2-p38.dreamscape.com [209.4.253.38]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA10055 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:58:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:08:18 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: forward on termites, inertia, reg's Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3555 Hi folks, I'm forwarding this message from the ecol-econ list because, I thought there'd be folks on gblist who would interested and because I thought there'd be gbers who would have intersting answers to the questions that are different from those posted by ecol-econs. - Terry Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 11:44:08 -0500 Reply-To: john.mcquaid@pressroom.com Sender: owner-Ecol-Econ@csf.colorado.edu Precedence: bulk From: John McQuaid To: ECOLOGICAL ECONOMICS Subject: Termites and technology MIME-Version: 1.0 X-To: ecol-econ@csf.colorado.edu For a newspaper series dealing with invasive species issues -- specifically, the Formosan termite problem in the U.S. -- I have a question that deals with both ecology and the question of what drives (or fails to drive) technological innovation. In a nutshell, this is the situation: around the end of WWII, Formosan termites were accidentally introduced to the Gulf Coast area, probably in cargo from the Pacific theater. Formosans (actually native to China, not Taiwan) are a kind of super-termite that form gigantic colonies, are resistant to traditional pest control methods, and can sometimes destroy a house in two years if not dealt with. For 20 years or so, nobody knew they were there. Then, for 25 years, a variety of traditional pest control methods were used, which didn't work very well. Middlingly at first, and lately quite poorly. The result is that in the last 5-10 years, the problem has reached truly disastrous levels, something on the par of a big tornado or a medium-sized hurricane. Only in the last 5 years have we gotten new methods of termite control, such as baits, new and better chemicals, etc. The question I'm trying to look at here is, what drives -- or delays -- technological innovation? In this case, innovation came only after the problem was an unqualified disaster, which seems striking. Prior to that, chemical companies and pest control companies were wedded to a particular kind of treatment -- a termiticide barrier, applied to the soil -- that did not work especially well. But for a variety of reasons (we think, corporate culture, the secrecy that tends to surround termite infestations, real estate values, etc.) inertia ruled the day. Any thoughts appreciated, and / or references to economists/social theorists who have looked at some of these issues and might be able to throw some light on the dynamics involved, both here and more generally, in the way market forces, social perceptions of problems, and regulation interact? Regards, John McQuaid The Times-Picayune, New Orleans john.mcquaid@pressroom.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 17:53:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14395 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:53:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA02877; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:35:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA02488 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:35:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA02484 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:35:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.4.253.38] (uA2-p38.dreamscape.com [209.4.253.38]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA26253; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:44:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:53:49 -0400 To: Green University Programs , greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Health and Wellness Center Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3556 >The George Washington University, in Washington, DC, is planning on >building a new Health and Wellness Center on campus. The Institute for >the Environment is interested in "greening" the building, and we are >looking for any advice and suggestions that you may have. We are >restricted to using green products that do not have any additional cost >over generally used projects. We are also faced with a tight deadline of >the middle of July to develop the specs for the products that we would >like to see included in the building. > >One concern that has been raised is in the wear of the products and the >unique nature of the center -- in that it is a workout center rather than >a traditional building. The facility will include a parking garage >underground, racquetball courts, general purpose rooms, a court for >basketball, etc., and a juice bar, and a running track. > >If any of you have suggestions or experience in "greening" this type of >building, please let me know. Thanks for your assistance. > >- J.P. > >J.P. Blackford >Assistant Director >Institute for the Environment JP, Hmmmm. No extra cost, and get it to us before mid July. I'm not surprised. A number of thoughts come up for me. 1) The first rule of green building is don't build. Do you really need a new building? Can you use an existing one? Is there a lot of indoor space that is currently inefficiently used? 2) Make it easy for walkers, rollerbladers, bicycles, metropolitan transit to access. 3) Plan an air pressure relationship hierarchy - what spaces should be run at the highest air pressure, which at the lowest and which in between. In DC I suggest running all space more psoitive than outdoors. The spaces requiring the best air quality will be the most pressurized, the spaces generating the most contaminants you don't want spread around will be the least pressurized. Planning this from the start will reduce the number of air quality problems, the risk of condensation and resulting mold growth, comfort complaints and energy use. 4) Make sure the return side of the air handlers do not depressurize wall cavities, utility chases, tunnels, trenches or draw outdoor air in through exterior walls. 5) Keep the roof as simple as possible so roof leaks are unlikely, but easy easy to fix. 6) Do a good job with drainage under the building because it's miserable trying to deal with moisture migration through foundations after the fact. 7) Reduce sensible and latent cooling load as much as possible: over hangs external light shelves windows with good visible light transmission and low transmission in the rest of the spectrum use low wattage - high lumen lighting with occupancy sensors locate outdoor intakes so they draw in air from shaded cool area (not 12" from a black, sun baked 180 degree F roof deck) avoid air conditioning if possible (I'd check with what the Real Goods folks did in their building in California - cool air no active AC' also "Sun, Wind and Light" by G.Z. Brown) if you end up with cooling towers locate them where they don't bake in the sun and away from people and outdoor air intakes 8) Check out composting public restrooms by Bio-sun. Very nice, very competitive. 9) Do something with all the water that falls on the roof besides ppouring it into the strom sewer (like water landscape plants, flush toilets or put it in a tank on the roof and use it for the sprinkler system). 10) Look around the area and see what's plentiful that could be used as a building material. Local, indiginous stuff like stone from the Great Falls area or pave the parking lot with lobbying lawyers 11) Hire Bill Browning at RMI who's doing the American Indian building over on Maryland Ave. Terry Brennan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 18:13:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA15548 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:13:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03797; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 18:00:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:56:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA03465 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:56:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03459 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:56:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id RAA0000017357; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 17:04:22 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980603220657.006c1fa4@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 17:06:57 -0500 To: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: followup -- low-flush toilet Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3557 Sounds to me like Dave Barry has the same effect on toilets as does Oprah on books. Maybe he can be given some more worthy green building stuff for his columns. Sacie L ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 19:17:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA19637 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 19:17:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA06384; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 19:05:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 19:01:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA06094 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 19:01:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR05 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.177]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06084 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 19:01:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default - 208.250.155.99 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:08:46 -0700 From: "Patricia Meeks" To: "GBList" Subject: GBlist: RE: Rubble Foundations Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:07:15 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bd8f44$5a2404e0$639bfad0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3558 I'm not sure what you want to know about "rubble-trench foundations," but a book I just purchased has a small, but informative section, that provides a good overview with photos and diagrams. "Fine Homebuilding" on "Foundations and Masonry", Taunton Press, abridged from the Fine Homebuilding Builder's Library. 1990, catalog card number 89-40578. The "rubble-trench" article also notes that F.L. Wright discusses these types of foundations in "The Natural House" (Horizon Press, New York, 1954). Patricia Meeks pmeeks@msn.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 20:50:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA25942 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:50:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA09354; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:37:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:33:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA08803 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:33:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from radon.math.tamu.edu (radon.math.tamu.edu [128.194.7.210]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA08798 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:33:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.math.tamu.edu (ns1 [128.194.7.22]) by radon.math.tamu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24369 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 19:41:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ns1.math.tamu.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ns1.math.tamu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA16299 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 19:41:28 -0500 Message-ID: <3575ED38.29CC58D2@math.tamu.edu> Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 19:41:28 -0500 From: Ruvane Marvit Organization: Dept of Mathematics, Texas A&M University X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.33 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: roof-mobilehome Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3559 my apologies if this is an inappropriate question. I am a student with limited funds and live in a 20 yr old mobile home , Living in Texas with no trees overhead ---i'm dyin' !!!!!!!! Insulation is virtually nill ( R value of 7, in the walls ); roof ???who knows. This is what i want to do: 1.Purchase cattle fencing and bend it to a peak in the middle and set it atop the galvanized metal roof so that there is about ??? 18in.distance from the apex and my roof. 2. I have a good size wisteria that i can retrain onto the fencing: The wisteria will hold the fencing in place with its twinning if high winds occur. this would give me shade. 3. Use a lawn mister system to run the 60ft length of the roof: under the wisteria/fencing,( and on top of the metal roof ) with a timer that will spray cool water across the metal roof---- at the intermitent spacings of the misters. i was not going for evaporation to cool things --but rather the thought was that the water was around 50deg. and the roof: ~1million deg wouldn't it take some of the heat away and water the plants on the ground as excess drips off??? especially the wisteria!! is this just too wackoo???? much obliged to any input. thanks in advance!! R.Marvit ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 20:50:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA25952 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:50:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA09422; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:38:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:34:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA08839 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:33:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.36]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA08835 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:33:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([12.65.166.213]) by mtiwmhc01.worldnet.att.net (InterMail v03.02.03 118 118 102) with SMTP id <19980604004150.DNLO1031@default> for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:41:50 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980603183323.007e1430@postoffice.worldnet.att.net> X-Sender: chamisa@postoffice.worldnet.att.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 18:33:23 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: rhiannon dent Subject: GBlist: Straw Bale House workshop Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id UAA08836 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3560 Hi everyone, We are having a Straw Bale House Raising workshop in Central New Mexico (Veguita, about 40 miles south of Albuquerque - all the planning and work is finally coming together! We are using local contractors who specialize in SB to run a workshop, and they have a sliding scale fee for anyone who does not have the money. Following is all the info, or drop me a line if you need more information...... Thanks, Rhiannon Straw Bale House Raising/Workshop Two Saturdays, July 18th and July 25th, 1998 near Albuquerque, NM Learn how to build using Straw Bales - complete building process covered from obtaining permits to stuccoing. Gain hands on experience building a structure using Straw Bale techniques! The workshop will take place over two Saturdays in July, the 18th and 25th. The cost of the workshop is $75.00 for both Saturdays with a sliding scale fee available. The workshop is being taught by Judi Judy Company, contractors specializing in Straw Bale construction. Judi Judy Company has been teaching and building using straw bale techniques for 6 years and are located in Placitas, NM. ¨ Foundations ¨ Framing ¨ Straw Bale Wall Raising ¨ Window and Door Openings ¨ Stucco Applications The site of the workshop is a home to be built in Veguita, about 40 miles south of Albuquerque. The workshop runs from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. both Saturdays. To register and obtain directions or additional information, contact Judi Judy Company at 505-771-1972. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 20:55:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA26138 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:55:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA09853; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:43:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:39:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA09508 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:39:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA09504 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:39:02 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1WUQa18095 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:46:57 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <5f3017ad.3575ee83@aol.com> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:46:57 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Conspiracies, Lessons, etc. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3561 Friends, The thought of really exploring and understaning the perspectives of "the enemy" is scary to us mostly because we may discover that in some regards they are right and we are wrong. Recently it's been reported that catalytic converters in cars are significant contributors to global warming. A recent report in EBN indicates that at least by some measures asphalt shingles may meet better overall environmental correctness standards than tile roofs which we might intuitively embrace as more green. It seems there are no simple answers. Along with Environmental Business News, Business Ethics, the Utne Reader and other "progressive" reading, I find that a broad range of reading material keeps my mind open to a variety of perspectives. The most challenging and interesting thing I've read lately is an article by George Gilder called "The Soul of Silicon" in the June Issue of Forbes ASAP. Reaching across history, anthropology, religion, quantum mechanics, tribal organization, economic theory, electronics and materials science, Gilder proposes some compelling, though hard to embrace answers to many of the questions we environmentalists raise, as well as some inspirations for fixing what is wrong with our current capitalist system. No simple solutions, but some intriguing ideas. For Gilder it seems to boil down to a matter of hope and faith. He stresses religious faith, as well as faith in our economic system, faith in our fellow man, faith in ourselves, faith in our endeavors and the organizations in which we participate, and faith in our human ability to solve problems. I look at the trends and beleive Malthus myself, but I also wonder at times if I really have a good grasp of all the forces at play in the big picture. Despite the desperate world shortage of whale oil and skilled buggy whip makers, most people in the world are arguably at least as well off as they were a hundred years ago, despite all the Malthusian projections through the years. Perhaps a solar/hydrogen/information economy will render Exxon, it's products and those miopic executives that choose to conspire rather than grow and change, into equally quaint relecs of history. Perhaps the emerging economy might also help us overcome some of the major inequalities in the world as well as some of the limits to growth that seem so absolute from the perspective of our current reality. Building good buildings and learning from people like you folks is a far richer and more fulfilling experience than than the years I spent protesting ever was. I beleive it does far more good for the world in most cases as well. Not that we should let our guard down, but let us not have it up so high that we miss the positive opportunities and news before us either. As someone else mentioned, I was also heartened, reading the Washington Post, by the major and powerful corporate signatures on the Pew advertisement for a responsible approach to global warming. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 22:23:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA29928 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12773; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:11:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:06:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA12357 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12352 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:06:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA124560; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:13:45 -0600 Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:13:45 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Beverly A. Weiter" Cc: weigel@satawal.cvmbs.colostate.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: followup -- low-flush toilet In-Reply-To: <19980603.150323.3182.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3562 Beverly: Further to your message of below, how many gallons/flush? What is wrong with our Sealand toilet with a 1 pint flush or our waterless toilet with 0 gal. flush? Household organics are an asset and not a liability. In addition, water is a non-renewable resource (in my opinion). Jorg Ostrowski ________________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > > Stephanie, et al, > > Just received the cut sheet on the "Dave Barry Toilet". It is the > Gerber, Aqua Saver gravity closet, models 21-700 (10") and 21-702 (12") > and 21-712 (12" elongated). Western Pottery was probably your local > distributor, just as Koski Plumbing is ours. > > Thanks again for getting me on the right track. > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > Boca Raton, FL > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 22:31:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA00308 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:31:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA13374; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:16:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA13056 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:15:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13046 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:15:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip132.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.132]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA03180; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:24:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980604022857.006f4fb0@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 22:28:57 -0400 To: JNH2@aol.com, company_b@hotmail.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: RUBBLE FOUNDATIONS! please respond! Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3563 At 01:43 PM 6/3/1998 EDT, JNH2@aol.com wrote: >The response has been sparse ... I believe that there is considerable 'rubble foundation' info in the archives - although how to get there ?? I seem to always look up such in 'From the Ground Up' or 'From the Walls In' - Cole & Wing. I'm not a builder, green or efficient - consultants don't really have to know how many nails for a 2x4, just where to find it. Ps: I wouldn't take their info (or anyone's) for granted - as Terry Brennan seems to keep implying think global - act loco or as the zen master said when his disciple building diagnostician called on the cell phone to find out whether to measure the building or to use the builders' plans -'use your best judgement'. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) 511 Carpenter St http://www.home-performance.org Greenport, NY 11944 --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 23:01:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA01554 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 23:01:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14423; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:49:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:45:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA14029 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:44:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA14024 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:44:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.topher.net (ppp15.topher.net [206.136.138.174]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00902; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 21:40:19 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199806040240.VAA00902@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: "greenbuilder" Cc: Subject: GBlist: re: mobile home roof Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 21:54:45 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3564 I like your creativity. I'm in Texas also and heat REJECTION is our passive solar priority. Any plant shading your roof will do a world of good. Make it sturdy enought that it will stay around (at least as long as your mobile home is still in place)! If you get enough shade, you don't need to worry with the water mist - use the water to make sure the wisteria roots are happy. To get any cooling effect from just the cooler temp of the water you will need volume - enough that it would be a water waste. The cooling effect from the water vaporizing is good and requires less water, but probably still too big a waste. I've got a metal roof on my house and rainwater collection and it still didn't seem feasible to mist water up there (even with a PV powered pump and recollection of the unevaporated water). Then again, my roof is SIP's so I have much better insulation. In addition to the wisteria look for native vines in your area that will grow fast and require little care. Regards, Paul Westbrook Fairview, TX (near Dallas) -------original message -------------- Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 19:41:28 -0500 From: Ruvane Marvit Subject: GBlist: roof-mobilehome my apologies if this is an inappropriate question. I am a student with limited funds and live in a 20 yr old mobile home , Living in Texas with no trees overhead ---i'm dyin' !!!!!!!! Insulation is virtually nill ( R value of 7, in the walls ); roof ???who knows. This is what i want to do: 1.Purchase cattle fencing and bend it to a peak in the middle and set it atop the galvanized metal roof so that there is about ??? 18in.distance from the apex and my roof. 2. I have a good size wisteria that i can retrain onto the fencing: The wisteria will hold the fencing in place with its twinning if high winds occur. this would give me shade. 3. Use a lawn mister system to run the 60ft length of the roof: under the wisteria/fencing,( and on top of the metal roof ) with a timer that will spray cool water across the metal roof---- at the intermitent spacings of the misters. i was not going for evaporation to cool things --but rather the thought was that the water was around 50deg. and the roof: ~1million deg wouldn't it take some of the heat away and water the plants on the ground as excess drips off??? especially the wisteria!! is this just too wackoo???? much obliged to any input. thanks in advance!! R.Marvit ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 23:06:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA01766 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 23:06:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14876; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:54:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:50:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA14559 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14553 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 22:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA114712; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:57:20 -0600 Date: Wed, 3 Jun 1998 20:57:20 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Alex Wilson Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Sustainable communities In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3565 Has anyone got an updated article on Haymount? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 3 23:32:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA02950 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 23:32:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA15750; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 23:20:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Jun 1998 23:16:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA15459 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 23:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA15455 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 23:16:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip14.ivnet.net [206.101.73.174]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA04506; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 19:20:48 -0700 Message-ID: <3576125B.2CF72162@ivnet.net> Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 20:19:55 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: weigel CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: low-flush toilets References: <199805311927.NAA09350@lamar.ColoState.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3566 Quite a few of them work pretty well now. American Standard's Cadet is inexpensive and does well. weigel wrote: > > Can anyone help with recommendations for low-flush toilets that really > work? We are wanting to come up with a reasonably priced standard install > toilet for our cohousing project. I have seen some recommendatons for > Toto brand on the internet. Any experiences orother recommendations? > > thanks > Stephanie > sweigel@lamar.colostate.edu > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 4 00:16:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA05021 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:16:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA17081; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:00:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA16862 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:00:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA16858 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:00:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id XAA0000018976; Wed, 3 Jun 1998 23:08:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980604041103.006ea614@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 03 Jun 1998 23:11:03 -0500 To: Frazer Dougherty From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: RUBBLE FOUNDATIONS! please respond! Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3567 > >I believe that there is considerable 'rubble foundation' info in the >archives - although how to get there ?? Easy, try: http://solstice.crest.org/sustainable/greenbuilding-list-archive/index.html or one might find some rubble stuff in Fine Homebuilding's site: http://www.taunton.com/breaktime/ S. Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 4 05:09:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA16551 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 05:09:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA26494; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 04:57:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Jun 1998 04:53:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA26272 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 04:53:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail-gw.fsr.net (mail-gw.fsr.net [207.141.26.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA26268 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 04:52:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp027.pullman.com (ppp027.pullman.com [204.227.174.27]) by mail-gw.fsr.net (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id CAA05085 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 02:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 02:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806040906.CAA05085@mail-gw.fsr.net> X-Sender: dwilson@pullman.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Dennis Wilson Subject: GBlist: Head to Head (was low-flush toilets) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3568 Head on over to: http://www.terrylove.com/crtoilet.htm for information on the Western toilet, model Clinton 832 EL, made famous by Dave Barry and other 1.6 GPF toilets. This informative webpage has the Dave Barry articles, toilet plunger tips, recommendations, and links to the manufacturers. Dennis Wilson Pullman, WA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 4 07:44:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA21839 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 07:44:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA00587; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 07:32:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Jun 1998 07:28:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA00343 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 07:28:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA00339 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 07:28:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id HAA20584 for ; Thu, 04 Jun 1998 07:36:46 -0400 Message-id: <3522726@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 04 Jun 98 07:36:53 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Health and Wellness Center To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3569 --- You wrote: Check out composting public restrooms by Bio-sun. Very nice, very competitive. --- end of quote --- And extremely electrically intensive (residential looks like about 3000 kWh/yr), and exhaust in excess of 1000 CFM - not great for pressure balancing. How about Phoenix composters instead? Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 4 10:07:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28216 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05869; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:55:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:51:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05539 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:51:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05535 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 09:51:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA39908; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 07:58:57 -0600 Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 07:58:57 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: e-mail for Peter Reppes, U. of Michigan? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3570 Does anyone recall the message of the above on GreenHouse Gas emissions? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 4 11:02:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA00683 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 11:02:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08809; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:46:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08454 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:46:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08441 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:46:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA01562; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 07:52:09 -0700 Message-ID: <3576B466.8E3AD5D6@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 04 Jun 1998 07:51:19 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: COMPOSTERS AGAIN (Was Health and Wellness Center) References: <3522726@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3571 Can't resist discussing the role of composting toilets -again-. Someone once wrote to me a wonderful description of the types of waterless toilets and had broken them down into three types: active, mouldering, digesters. Active described most of the available commercial varieties of composters in which various bells and whistles and lots of pieces of plastic and sometimes energy (as Mark mentioned) are added to facilitate or speed up the composting process. These have varying degrees of success, are prone to breakdown, etc. While they generally work it is difficult to determine if the added properties are effective in meeting any additional goals, i.e. higher temp, faster breakdown, etc. Mouldering is segregation of waste into a contained area over time. Realistically often the same process as above but probably more accepting of the difficulties and limitations of the composting process. The social question is how technical should the on-site removal and treatment of our waste be and what are the criteria. If the criteria is no water and energy usage then a simple mouldering or even storage approach is effective. If the criteria is complete pathogen removal and/or nitrate removal then the goals are not being met and I think could not probably be met with what is currently being offered. A more advanced, probably more energy intensive and definitely more expensive system would be required and this brings up the question of suitability of this approach for single user or even limited multiple user for on-site use. I think we need some social planning for segregation of waste in urban areas especially and this will involve some infrastructure for removal and reuse if we are really to deal with the material and issue. The use of composters in homes is definitely good but overall will lead to a few overly fertilized trees in a few backyards. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > --- You wrote: > Check out composting public restrooms by Bio-sun. Very nice, very > competitive. > --- end of quote --- > And extremely electrically intensive (residential looks like about 3000 > kWh/yr), and exhaust in excess of 1000 CFM - not great for pressure balancing. > > How about Phoenix composters instead? > > Marc > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 4 11:32:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA02058 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 11:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10496; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 11:20:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Jun 1998 11:16:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09969 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 11:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09963 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 11:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id LFT20700; Thu, 04 Jun 1998 11:23:40 EDT To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:30:10 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: followup -- low-flush toilet Message-ID: <19980604.112830.6590.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-11 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3572 Jorg, Plumber says 1 gal/flush but cut sheet says 1.6. Am unfamiliar with units you mention but was merely following up on one mentioned in article. Have not had, nor will before my vacation, time to go look and check it out. Tata 'til after the 16th. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 4 14:19:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA10409 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:19:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18636; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:02:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA18143 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:02:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (root@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.253.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18131 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 14:02:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leo.davisenergy.com (usr2-d15.cwnet.com [209.21.20.63]) by wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.8.5/DCN8.8.1) with SMTP id LAA20962; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 11:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 11:10:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806041810.LAA20962@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us> X-Sender: lirainer@dcn.davis.ca.us X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Ruvane Marvit , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Leo Rainer Subject: Re: GBlist: roof-mobilehome Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3573 At 07:41 PM 6/3/98 -0500, Ruvane Marvit wrote: >I am a student with limited funds and live in a 20 yr old mobile home , > Living in Texas with no trees overhead ---i'm dyin' !!!!!!!! >Insulation is virtually nill ( R value of 7, in the walls ); > roof ???who knows. I suggest you paint the roof white while you are waiting for the wisteria to grow. This will help immensely, especially if the roof is presently uninsulated bare galvanized. ...leo ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 4 19:08:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA24427 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 19:08:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA04033; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 18:56:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Jun 1998 18:52:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03718 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 18:52:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from AICS.NET (aics.net [209.21.198.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03714 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 18:52:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.21.198.46] ([209.21.198.46]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 7644300 ; Thu, 04 Jun 1998 18:56:54 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 18:56:42 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: STILL MORE! on low-flush toilets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id SAA03715 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3574 BTW, those great-looking Ifö toilets from Sweden with the tapered tanks and the push-button flushes are still available here. Two distributors in U.S. (NB: Many say that the real thing works better than the Mansfield version of it.) Flush is adjustable 1.6 gal or as low as a litre (or less--don't have the lit at hand). At $500 or so (before shipping), they're not cheap (maybe in multiples...), but they provide a Niagara-like flush and are as close to works of art as toilets get. Ah, the Swedes... -Anna at Ecos ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 4 21:56:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA02741 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 21:56:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09198; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 21:44:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Jun 1998 21:40:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08814 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 21:40:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08803 for ; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 21:40:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA37802; Thu, 4 Jun 1998 19:47:47 -0600 Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 19:47:47 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Waterless Toilets & Health and Wellness Center In-Reply-To: <3522726@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3575 You said:re: Bio-Sun: "And extremely electrically intensive (residential looks like about 3000 kWh/yr), and exhaust in excess of 1000 CFM - not great for pressure balancing. How about Phoenix composters instead?" _______________________________________________________________________________ Marc: Our Phoenix uses 40-50 kWh/year for both its light and fan (@24 hrs/day). There is no reason waterless toilets should not be used in this wellness center, depending on sewer connection costs. It has already been done. Jorg Ostrowski The other 2 major advantages of waterless toilets (based on experience) are: 1) that it is silent (important at night) and 2) no smells (even after disagreeable food). ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 5 03:52:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA27520 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 03:52:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA17444; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 03:40:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Jun 1998 03:35:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA17206 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 03:35:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA17202 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 03:35:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Strawnet@aol.com Received: from Strawnet@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1MGDa05133 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 03:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 03:43:18 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Sustainability and Building Codes Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3576 Just a quick note for those who might be in New York City on June 18. I will be giving a slide presentation and talk on the subject of Sustainability and the Building Codes at 6:30 pm at the EcoSmart Building Center, 40 Wall Street, 23rd floor. The talk is co-hosted by the New York chapters of the AIA Committee on the Environment, and Architects, Designers, and Planners for Social Responsibility, The Sustainable Business Network, and the O2 Design Network. We hope to have a lively discussion after the presentation. There is no charge, though donations will be gratefully accepted. It should be stimulating. Thanks Daivd Eisenger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 5 10:29:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14663 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:29:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25732; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:17:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:13:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25429 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:12:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25423 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:12:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id JAA0000024121; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:21:05 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980605142349.0067a174@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 09:23:49 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: composting toilets Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3577 At 07:51 AM 04-06-98 -0700, John wrote: >Can't resist discussing the role of composting toilets -again-. Someone once wrote >to me a wonderful description of the types of waterless toilets and had broken >them down into three types: active, mouldering, digesters. Speaking of which I finally checked out some prices on the several that have been most frequently suggested. And was I shocked. The least expensive model in the highly-rated Phoenix camp costs $3500!! and is 'rated' for just two people. Here in Kansas one can build an entire leach field, septic tank and all for a five bedroom house with that kind of money. Yes yes I know these are often wanted where a leach field is not possible, but I sure hope you architects out there don't spec this one too often, highly rated or not. Or maybe B. Gates would buy one. Sacie Lambertson And to think I was thinking about using one rather than fork out big bucks for a grind pump gadget to the nearest septic tank. BTW for anyone who is interested, John Cruckshank sent me plans for his homemade solar outhouse that apparently works well and costs little to build. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 5 10:44:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15404 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:44:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26525; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:32:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:28:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26202 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:28:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26196 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:28:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA00586; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 07:34:04 -0700 Message-ID: <357801A9.B9EFA7E9@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 07:33:14 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Composting toilets Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3578 Hi Sacie Well can't resist replying with a patronizing reminder about the significance of a waterless toilet. Water is a scarce and limited resource that we are not paying the true value of. If we take bottled water costs as an extreme but potential true value for treated potable water. At a cost of .35 us a gallon the average person will spend $3850.00 per year to flush away their wastes. At $7700 for two people the Phoenix at only $3500 seems a bargain. A low flow might cut that cost down to a $2000 a year for two. taking an extreme view of course. best John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. 13210 US Gallons David F. Lambertson wrote: > At 07:51 AM 04-06-98 -0700, you wrote: > >Can't resist discussing the role of composting toilets -again-. Someone > once wrote > >to me a wonderful description of the types of waterless toilets and had broken > >them down into three types: active, mouldering, digesters. > > Speaking of which I finally checked out some prices on the several that have > been most frequently suggested. And was I shocked. The least expensive > model in the highly-rated Phoenix camp costs $3500!! and is 'rated' for just > two people. Here in Kansas one can build an entire leach field, septic > tank and all for a five bedroom house with that kind of money. Yes yes I > know these are often wanted where a leach field is not possible, but I sure > hope you architects out there don't spec this one too often, highly rated or > not. Or maybe B. Gates would buy one. Sacie Lambertson > And to think I was thinking about using one rather than fork out big > bucks for a grind pump gadget to the nearest septic tank. BTW for anyone > who is interested, John Cruckshank sent me plans for his homemade solar > outhouse that apparently works well and costs little to build. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 5 11:08:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16537 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:08:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27827; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:56:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:52:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27308 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:52:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.38]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27304; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:52:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1QXOa04556; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <66784663.357807f4@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:00:02 EDT To: ee-building@crest.org, iaq@onelist.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: "Boiling Point." This issue focuses on household energy and health Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3579 Date: 05 Jun 98 09:24:16 -0400 From: "Dan Campbell" Subject: Important issue of "Boiling Point" Dear Colleagues: Intermediate Technology Publications has just published the Spring 1998 issue of "Boiling Point." This issue focuses on household energy and health. EHP has purchased a limited number of copies to distribute to ARI network members. Please send your postal mailing address to request a copy; copies will be distributed until our supply is exhausted. "Boiling Point" has also given EHP permission to make the health articles available via the EHP web site and we hoe to have these scanned and available soon. Further information on past issues and subscriptions can be obtained from Elizabeth Bates at email: elizabethb@itdg.org.uk Articles in this issue include: Health Articles () Theme editorial: household energy, smoke and health - P. Miller () Smoke from biomass and its effects on infants - N. Bruce () Health risk caused by domestic smoke - MR Pandey () Emissions from high altitude stoves: a case study in Nepal - KM Sulpya () Biomass smoke and ill-health in India: preliminary results from a national survey - Boiling Point () Global network for the health effects of environmental air pollution - D. Campbell & Mary Lamb () Fuels, stoves and indoor air pollution in Jaracuaro, Mexico - B. Saatkamp; O. Masera; D. Kammen Energy Articles () Redesign of liquified petroleum gas stove for the blind - A. Ghosh () How many of these improvements are in your stoves programme - G. Ballard-Tremeer () Participatory technology development in stove manufacture: a case study - L. Lowe () Renewable energy sources in Nigeria - JO Olajide () Efficient household energy use in Uttara Kannada District, Karnataka - TV Ramachandra () Research into cooking and heating applications of down-draught stoves - AM Hasan Rashid Khan () Comparing forestry wood species for the charcoal supply of Antananrivo city, Madagascar - P. Girard; P. Rousset; A. Vergnet; A. Rasamindisa ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 5 11:11:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16657 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:11:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28108; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:59:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:55:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27714 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:55:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27708 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:55:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust37.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.37]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id KAA00497; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:03:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35780986.3B4E@gte.net> Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 11:06:46 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Sustainable communities References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3580 Jorg, If you get a Haymount article, please share. New Urban News, published by Rob Steuteville, is a good bimonthly source of TND updates. No web site yet, #607-275-3087. You may also want to check out http://edesign.state.fl.us and http://sustainable.state.fl.us Cindy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 5 11:16:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16853 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28513; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:04:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:00:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28226 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28220 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:00:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Strawnet@aol.com Received: from Strawnet@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1IYYa08563 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:08:27 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re Sustainability and Codes, sleep deprivation, etc. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3581 I just noticed that, although the information in my message about my presentation in NYC was correct, I'm not sure who "Daivd Eisenger" is. I was either a. in a hurry, b. very sleepy, c. changing my name, d. both a. & b. Right! it's d. D a v i d E i s e n b e r g ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 5 11:38:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18212 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:38:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00268; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:25:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:21:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29943 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:21:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jpusa.chi.il.us (root@jpusa.pr.mcs.net [205.164.2.80]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29939 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:21:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.164.2.199] (ppeterson.jpusa.net [205.164.2.199]) by jpusa.chi.il.us (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA00081 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:58:42 -0500 X-Sender: patp@mailbox.jpusa.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 09:57:17 -0500 To: "GreenBuilding List" From: patp@jpusa.chi.il.us (Pat Peterson) Subject: GBlist: Curved 2 x 4 roof trusses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3582 Greetings all! I am currently working on the design for a smallish straw bale lake cabin (16 x 24 interior dimension). I am considering putting on a living roof, but want to have the roof curve (sort of like the Dronet building in France). The question is, could I set up a form to bend the top and bottom chords of the truss (not a big bend) without jeapordizing the load-bearing integrity? It would end ub havin a 16 foot open span, planked on the bottom, bales and sod on the top. Am I insane? Any thoughts would be helpful (looking for "sounds great!" or "er, your headed for disaster.") Thanks! -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- p a t p e t e r s o n : w h e a t s d e s i g n c o r n e r s t o n e p r e s s c h i c a g o j e s u s p e o p l e u s a c o v e n a n t c h u r c h 9 2 0 w w i l s o n a v e . : c h i c a g o i l 6 0 6 4 0 http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9478/index.html patp@jpusa.chi.il.us : wheatspace@geocities.com -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 5 19:35:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA11140 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 19:35:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA23165; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 19:23:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Jun 1998 19:18:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA22850 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 19:18:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22846 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 19:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ashcreek (sa5-p27.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.219]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id TAA21795 for ; Fri, 5 Jun 1998 19:27:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35787D6F.1C76@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 05 Jun 1998 19:21:19 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Design criteria Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3583 For those of you who do not get Green Clips I am taking the liberty of forwarding one of this weeks clips, I hope they don't mind. I said something like this sometime back and got a trickle of comments and a couple of favorite architect picks, but I think it (creative, aesthetic design) is a subject of considerable importance and hope this forthcoming book helps focus more attention on it. "JAMES WINES ON SUSTAINABLE DESIGN AND ESTHETICS "My take on esthetics is that if it isn't interesting, nobody's going to keep the building around anyway. So what's the point of the sustainable movement?" So says James Wines, whose New York City-based architectural firm SITE is known for its iconoclastic 1970s designs for Best company showrooms. Now he's writing a book about the environmental design movement called Architecture in the Age of Ecology that Taschen will publish this fall. "The point of the book," Wines says, "is to get the green movement off this finger-wagging, to get away from that reprimanding tone... I'm challenging those awful buildings done by most of the 'greenies'. It's bad, uninteresting design. That's the point of the book: Philosophy, esthetics, and technology go together... While there's brilliant work being done today that qualifies as sustainable, most architects' choices of visual interpretation are still locked into time- warped, 20th-century stylistic idioms, which tend to confuse rather than reinforce progressive images of earth-friendly architecture. On the other hand... a good portion of the architecture profession has remained oblivious to the magnitude of its irresponsible assaults on resources and the land... [The book is] part apology and part getting ourselves to think about being responsible... Our [firm's] designs are not prescriptive or formulaic. We're trying to give an esthetic dimension to environmental issues by expressing technological functions. For example, at Chattanooga's Ross's Landing park (1992), we designed buildings sheltered with earth. The US pavilion for the Seville World's Fair (1992) was a big piece of bioclimatic art: The columns were framed in wire, filled with earth, and seeded with plants. These projects express environmental innovation and say something about their context." - Architecture, May 98, p 77." To SUBSCRIBE TO GREEN CLIPS Address an email message to . In the body of the message (not the subject line) type: subscribe greenclips ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jun 6 15:19:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA24700 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 15:19:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16709; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 15:06:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Jun 1998 15:02:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16472 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 15:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from AICS.NET (aics.net [209.21.198.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16468 for ; Sat, 6 Jun 1998 15:02:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.21.198.44] ([209.21.198.36]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 7966800 ; Sat, 06 Jun 1998 15:13:56 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 15:13:42 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: Composting toilets, my favorite subject Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3584 Sacie Lambertson writes: > And to think I was thinking about using one rather than fork out big >bucks for a grind pump gadget to the nearest septic tank. BTW for anyone >who is interested, John Cruckshank sent me plans for his homemade solar >outhouse that apparently works well and costs little to build. ---------------- Sacie: Regarding manufactured composting toilets, there are huge costs that don't have be borne by folks building them in your backyard. Figure this: - testing: NSF and CSA listings cost thousands of dollars a year to get ($6k-10K) and maintain (at least $5K/yr) - promotion and support - most importantly, the time spent trying to get them approved:In almost all states with regs sympathetic to CTs, it's the manufacturers who have jumped through the expensive, fiery hoops to get them addressed -low volumes produced: because they are not common systems, some manufacturers are only making 10 to 100 a year, mostly for public facilities No composting toilet manufacturer will tell you that their systems cost less than a septic system in great soils. However, they often are less expensive. And, if you figure in broader costs, a zero-discharge system can save big. It's a matter of avoided costs--water, pollution remediation, health costs, and so on. In most places, you'll find it nearly impossible to get the homemade mouldering or composting toilet system approved. (Consider combining that design with an active composting interchangeable barrel system design--many out there--for faster processing.) Shift happens! Carol Sustainable Strategies Ecological Engineering, Planning and Design 152 Commonwealth Avenue Concord, Massachusetts USA 01742-2968 Phone/Voice-mail: 978 369 9440 Fax/Telecopier: 978 369 2484 Web site: www.ecological-engineering.com E-mail: sustainable@aics.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 7 20:49:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA20809 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:49:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA25617; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:37:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:30:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA25067 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:30:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA25061 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:30:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.7] (blf7.acadia.net [205.217.217.7]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA03622 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:38:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:39:11 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: STILL MORE! on low-flush toilets Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id UAA25062 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3585 Quote: >BTW, those great-looking Ifö toilets from Sweden with the tapered tanks and >the push-button flushes are still available here. >-Anna at Ecos end of quote Ifo's are great. They're what we used from 1987 until about 3 years ago. The Mansfield version is no longer made - last produced about a year ago. I use an Ifo every day - if it can withstand me, it can handle anyone. Since 1994, we've had the best luck with American Standard Cadet 2, Kohler Wellworth and anything made by Toto. Toto has the most stringent testing and is our default choice. We avoid all Kohler products unless given no choice. This is for personal bias reasons. Buying Kohler ultimately enriches the Kohler family, and we don't like their politics. They help fund GOPAC, Jessie Helms, Newt Gingrich, the NRA, and David Duke, among others. We'd rather not cooperate with this. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 7 20:49:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA20814 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:49:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA25621; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:37:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:31:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA25127 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:31:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA25121 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:31:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.7] (blf7.acadia.net [205.217.217.7]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA03645 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:39:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:39:42 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Design criteria Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3586 Personally, I don't recognize James Wines as competent on the subject of good design. But what do other designers on the list think? Does he have a point that green design, to be effective, must focus on aesthetics? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 7 22:52:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA23880 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29400; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:39:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:32:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28898 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:32:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28894 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:32:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip02.ivnet.net [206.101.73.162]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06988; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 18:36:43 -0700 Message-ID: <357B4DFF.EEDDE426@ivnet.net> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 19:35:43 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: STILL MORE! on low-flush toilets References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3587 David M. Foley wrote: > > We avoid all Kohler products unless given no > choice. This is for personal bias reasons. Buying Kohler ultimately > enriches the Kohler family, and we don't like their politics. They help > fund GOPAC, Jessie Helms, Newt Gingrich, the NRA, and David Duke, among > others. We'd rather not cooperate with this. > > David Foley__ Hey thanks for the info. I've not been a big Kohler purchaser, so they probably won't really miss my business, but they can get less. And I can spread the word now, too. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma OR ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 7 22:56:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA24009 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:56:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29792; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:44:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:38:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA29260 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:38:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA29254 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 22:38:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip02.ivnet.net [206.101.73.162]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA07053; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 18:43:07 -0700 Message-ID: <357B4F81.5D8403D1@ivnet.net> Date: Sun, 07 Jun 1998 19:42:09 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Design criteria References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3588 David M. Foley wrote: > > Personally, I don't recognize James Wines as competent on the subject of > good design. But what do other designers on the list think? Does he have > a point that green design, to be effective, must focus on aesthetics? > > David Foley > I'm certainly not competent to judge James Wines design skills, but I think good design goes first to the client. Pleasing our customers is an important aspect of good design. And if we can design buildings that are easy to love, then they will stand a better chance of being maintained. And if they last a long time, they will put less demand on supply. So if a building can be functional and beautiful, it will score extra "green points." Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 7 23:54:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA25785 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 23:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02588; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 23:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Jun 1998 23:36:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02067 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 23:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02063 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 23:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id UAA13810 for ; Sun, 7 Jun 1998 20:44:51 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 7 Jun 1998 20:41:47 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: KOHLER & WINES To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id XAA02064 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3589 David, Back in the 70's, when I lived in South Carolina, there was a local barbeque magnate named Maurice Bessinger who flew the biggest American flag in the universe at his establishment (PIGGY PARK) and was an avowed racist. Friends of mine said they wouldn't eat his barbeque, although they admitted it was the best for miles. I said: how does that make you different from the rednecks who boycott Jane Fonda movies because of HER politics? The Kohlers are also huge supporters of art, which brings us to the probable reason you don't like James Wines. He designs "weird," artsy buildings. Well, guess what, if you get avant-garde architects and designers on the side of green building, 60% of the battle will have been won. You should only hope that Wines starts designing green, even if you hate the way his buildings look. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 8 06:27:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA05644 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 06:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA12194; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 06:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Jun 1998 06:10:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA11812 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 06:10:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coyote.accessnv.com (jap2be@coyote.accessnv.com [207.168.90.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA11804 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 06:10:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (jap2be@localhost) by coyote.accessnv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA28772; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 06:04:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 06:04:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Angel Cohen Reply-To: Angel Cohen To: Green University Programs cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, Joe Coffineau , John Sheppard , Dorothy Vanette , Dennis Stevens , Michael Gazsi Subject: Re: GBlist: Health and Wellness Center In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3590 Dear JP Blackford: Hi! I have been a lurker on this list as I am not in construction but concerned with IAQ. I am the president and co-incorporator of the National Toxic Encephalopathy Foundation here in NV. I am very glad to see a university is trying to "Green" a building but here is my concern. WHat about the IAQ. This is specifically geared to the energy efficency that new buildings have and the entrapment of all toxic substances that most people wear. Those substances I am referring to are perfumes, laundry products, colognes, personal care items and those ever present air freshners in the restrooms. As most people on this list are familiar with the toxic components of the aforementioned items as reported by the EPA in numerous reports to the government, but allowed in public places under the guise of trademark/patent secrets. If a major univeristy is going to "green" the building it should be "greendized" through out. Recirculation of these offending substances that are major obstacles for those afflicted with Multiple Chemical Sensitivies/Toxic Encephalopathy technically are a violation of ADA. As the ADA does require all buildings to be accessible to all people with any recognized disability. The ADA has recognized MCS as a valid disability and therefore new buildings should take into account the obstacles of IAQ to these people. Given that this is a WORKOUT BUILDING and the major underlying purpose is HEALTH the IAQ is a must. Given that all who will be participating in the building will be increasing their VO2 MAx/Increasing lung capacity, introducing toxic substances is absolutely counter productive for the initial purpose of this building. There is a large percentage of people with Exercise Induced Asthma (EAI) which will be seriously compromsing their health working out in this type of environment. Also, those with MCS have to work out to increase sweating to aid in the elimination of the toxins in their body that is usually stored in adipose cells. These individuals have a tendency to NOT sweat therefore any sort of exercise/workout program is a must. THe major toxins that are in personal care items etc are known respiratory irritants, some are pancreatic carcinogentics, neuro-toxins etc. Anything less than a completely scent-free work out environment will be compromising peoples health along with being a hinderance and will be an inaccessible facility for those with anything from asthma to MCS. I would be very interested in hearing if the University is going to make this a true "GREEN" building and a fully accessible one to those with disabilities. I remain, Angel De Fazio, President National Toxic Encephalopathy Foundation NTEF-MCS@juno.com On Wed, 3 Jun 1998, Green University Programs wrote: > > The George Washington University, in Washington, DC, is planning on > building a new Health and Wellness Center on campus. The Institute for > the Environment is interested in "greening" the building, and we are > looking for any advice and suggestions that you may have. We are > restricted to using green products that do not have any additional cost > over generally used projects. We are also faced with a tight deadline of > the middle of July to develop the specs for the products that we would > like to see included in the building. > > One concern that has been raised is in the wear of the products and the > unique nature of the center -- in that it is a workout center rather than > a traditional building. The facility will include a parking garage > underground, racquetball courts, general purpose rooms, a court for > basketball, etc., and a juice bar, and a running track. > > If any of you have suggestions or experience in "greening" this type of > building, please let me know. Thanks for your assistance. > > - J.P. > > J.P. Blackford > Assistant Director > Institute for the Environment > > *********************************************** > * * > * George Washington University * > * Green University Initiative * > * * > * Institute for the Environment * > * 2121 Eye Street, NW * > * Rice Hall Suite 603 * > * Washington, DC 20052 * > * (202)994-3366 Voice * > * (202)994-0723 Fax * > * http://www.gwu.edu/~greenu/ * > * * > *********************************************** > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 8 07:45:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA07362 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 07:45:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA14036; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 07:33:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Jun 1998 07:28:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA13779 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 07:28:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA13774 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 07:28:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([194.168.102.4]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA2265; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:37:04 +0100 Message-ID: <357BC4A7.F10D7A13@which.net> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 12:02:00 +0100 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Reppe CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: board-meter conversion factor X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3591 Peter, I had never heard of it until you asked but I have found a conversion for a "board foot". You describe "board metre" as a British unit, but it can't be an old British unit as we only discovered metres 20 odd years ago. One "Board foot" is 144 cu ins, so I suppose it refers to a 1" thick board 1 foot square. Maybe board metre is a 1" board 1 metre square, as being a bit slow to change, some of our industries do like to mix their units a little. Malcolm Scott Peter Reppe wrote: > Would someone on this list be able to give me the conversion factor > from > the British "board metre" to a metric or US unit of volume? I just > can't > seem to find it anywhere (even contacted the US Forest Service, Forest > > Products Lab). Thanks a lot. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 8 08:28:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08454 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:28:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15459; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:15:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:12:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15121 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:11:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15115 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:11:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.70] (uc5.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.70]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA22887 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:20:24 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:30:15 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: Design Criteria Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3592 >Personally, I don't recognize James Wines as competent on the subject of >good design. But what do other designers on the list think? Does he have >a point that green design, to be effective, must focus on aesthetics? > >David Foley >Holland and Foley Building Design >232 Beech Hill Road >Northport, Maine USA 04849 >p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net Um. Actually I don't recognize James Wines name. However, I do have thoughts along these lines, which I posted some time ago. I've repaired, rstored or moved buildings that were 200 years old. I've bulldozed buildings that were less than ten years old. When buildings are worth saving, people fix them when things go wrong. (I like that because it means that I don't have to perfect in my work. I can simply relax, breathe easy and do my best.). Make a building that people will save. That's green to me. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 8 09:14:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09911 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:14:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17005; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:00:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:57:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA16725 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:56:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16719 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA8-p24.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.216]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA04402 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:05:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <357BE02C.79C44D39@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 08:59:24 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Health and Wellness Center Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------17FBA7B0D718A0AD0AF51407" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3593 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------17FBA7B0D718A0AD0AF51407 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Angel, Does your foundation have any guidelines for dealing with the IAQ issues you addressed in your post, i.e. specific recommendations for accomplishing "completely scent-free work out environment"? Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville,NY --------------17FBA7B0D718A0AD0AF51407 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Chuck Hinckley Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Chuck Hinckley n: Hinckley;Chuck org: Ash Creek Design email;internet: ashcreek@dreamscape.com note: "Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but rather when there is nothing more to take away." Antoine Saint-Exupery x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------17FBA7B0D718A0AD0AF51407-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 8 09:48:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA10798 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:48:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18518; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:32:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18186 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:31:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18182 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:31:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcoplos@aol.com Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 9NXJa14705; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6318a0b2.357be98f@aol.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 09:39:26 EDT To: jean_gallagher@macgate.csuchico.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: KOHLER & WINES Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3594 In a message dated 98-06-07 23:47:05 EDT, jean_gallagher@macgate.csuchico.edu writes: << I said: how does that make you different from the rednecks who boycott Jane Fonda movies because of HER politics? >> Down here in NC we solved that problem by using Jesse Helms toilet paper (each square has a likeness of the old coot on it). Actually though it's kind of depressing to even have to be reminded of him at a time when ordinarily one is free from his influence. Maybe that's why it's a good idea not to eat a racist's BBQ. Better for digestion. His building is probably ugly too. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 8 17:23:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA27318 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:23:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA09241; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:10:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:06:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA08840 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:06:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.39]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08833 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:06:17 -0400 (EDT) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: from ANovelli@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1QDLa05171 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 16:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5e688cd.357c4f09@aol.com> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 16:52:24 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Design criteria Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3595 David M. Foley wrote: > > Personally, I don't recognize James Wines as competent on the subject of > good design. But what do other designers on the list think? Does he have > a point that green design, to be effective, must focus on aesthetics? I'd hate to see us get lost in symantic differences, so I'll speak in support of beauty. My definition is one that includes both the aesthetic and the functional. I see it as no accident that everything that nature designs is both beautiful *and* functional (simple elegance comes to mind). If we make attempts at "green design," is that not, by definition, a style or approach to design that attemtps to mimic, model, or otherwise utilize the design of natural systems in how we approach our own, man-made design problems? >I'm certainly not competent to judge James Wines design skills, but I >think good design goes first to the client. Pleasing our customers is an >important aspect of good design. And if we can design buildings that are >easy to love, then they will stand a better chance of being maintained. >And if they last a long time, they will put less demand on supply. So if >a building can be functional and beautiful, it will score extra "green >points." Also, I think that Bruce makes good points. We are, after all, in the business of communicating an approach to design that is used in such a small percentage of newly constructed buildings that we need every angle we can get to break through that barrier. Designing buildings that are functional without being beautiful (though in this I open another can of worms) will serve us less effectively than they could, since after all, few of us have the metal of a Howard Roark to wait out the few hardy souls ready to embrace a design that is hard to develop a palate for. Further, I don't think I'm off base here saying that in our dealing with clientele, we have a job that is in part, educational. If we can get people to look more than skin-deep into buildings, into their inner workings, the purposes of materials and designs, and into having a relationship with their dwellings and their site, we begin to offer real service. The ultimate hypocrisy of a frame-built, faux Sante Fe-style homes will begin to emerge, and they may begin to seek things lost in most mainstream building-authenticity, integrity, and harmony. The shift towards a more integrated, sustainable design process in the mainstream will be very much a result of many systemic-level shifts. Like our codes work here at DCAT that David E. so eloquently relates, shifting the public perceptions, and educating them in the ways and means of more conscious design will be a long, challenging process. If we are to have a significant impact in slowing the negative effects of the built environment, we must acknowledge that the larger aspect of what needs to change is in the minds of the people we are targeting. Green building must become a viable, mainstream choice to have mainstream effects, and as such must appeal to the common man. Surely some of us, and our designs are a bit innaccessible to the uninitiated. But on the whole, we are moving toward credible reputations; both the inherent and aesthetic beauty of our work will continue its almost subconscious appeal to the masses. It is a hopeful thing to witness. Best regards, Tony Novelli DCAT, Tucson, AZ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 8 17:26:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA27427 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA09516; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:13:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:09:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09082 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:09:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.rapidramp.net (mail.incredibyte.net [207.99.72.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA09068 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:09:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806082109.RAA09068@solstice.crest.org> Received: from default [209.123.4.27] by mail.rapidramp.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.02) id A852135028E; Mon, 08 Jun 1998 17:32:02 EST Reply-To: From: "Office of Sustainable Design & Construction" To: Subject: GBlist: krypton gas in low-e glass windows Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:17:54 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3596 Are there any potential health dangers in the use of krypton gas in low-e windows? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 8 17:44:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA27988 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:44:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA11321; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:32:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:28:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA10939 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:28:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10933 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:28:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA16439 for ; Mon, 08 Jun 1998 17:36:33 -0400 Message-id: <3569265@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 08 Jun 98 17:36:36 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: krypton gas in low-e glass windows To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3597 --- You wrote: Are there any potential health dangers in the use of krypton gas in low-e windows? --- end of quote --- If you have any workers on the job who come to work with a blue and red suit, complete with cape, beneath their normal workclothes, beware! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 8 21:44:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06197 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:44:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA20738; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:32:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:26:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20164 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:25:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20153 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.19] (blf19.acadia.net [205.217.217.19]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA11129 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:33:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:33:48 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Please help with materials Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3598 We'd like some advice about 2 problems we're facing. First, we need to cover exposed exterior foam on a foundation. We have not had luck with typical "trowel-on" coatings, such as ComProCo or Stucco-Flex, finding that they have lousy durability. Pressure-treated plywood is out of the question - this is for an organic farmers group, and they won't even consider this option. On other buildings, we have used coated aluminum coilstock, but this foundation was not poured well, and there is enough "wave" in it to oilcan the metal. Metal lath and stucco might be an option, except that is very expensive in our area. Any suggestions would be welcome. Second, we seek a strong sheet material from which to make toilet partitions. We'd like to keep formaldehyde outgassing to a minimum, and so would like to avoid particleboard, MDF, etc. The other riddle is that our panels will be 5 ft. by 5 ft. - most U.S. sheet goods are 4 ft. by 8 ft., so potential for excessive waste is great. The budget is for hardwood plywood, so not all alternatives would be affordable. The product should hold up in a damp environment (a public restroom) and should have excellent screw-holding ability. Again, any suggestions would be welcome. Thanks very much! David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 8 21:44:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06198 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:44:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA20740; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:25:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20159 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20145 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:25:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.19] (blf19.acadia.net [205.217.217.19]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA11124 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:33:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:33:44 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Wall thickness study Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3599 This month's Journal of Light Construction reports on a study reported in Energy Design Update, February, 1998. The study was done for the Polyisocyanurate Insulation Manufacturers Association, and concludes that 2x6 walls cost an average of $1907 (U.S.) more to build than 2x4 walls, but save, on average, only $30 a year in energy costs for a 2000 sq. ft. home. Perhaps not surprisingly, the study found that 2x4 walls with an inch of foam insulation on the outside were a much better value. Any comments? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 8 21:58:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06565 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:58:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21542; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:46:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:40:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA21046 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:39:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.36]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA21038 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:39:53 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id GHJa005698; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:47:20 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:47:20 EDT To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Please help with materials Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3600 David My suggestions for your two problems: 1) Get rid of the foam on the outside of the foundation. It's a termite turnpike. If you aren't willing to saturate the surrounding ground with pesticides you are sacrificing your entire building as termite food in order to maximize savings of a few inconsiquential BTU's. That's not real sustainable. 2) Check out sign supply places for your partitions. I just bought a sign made out of some sort of foam filled plastic material that is probably not really ecologically pure, but does come in weird sizes and would fit the need. Don't know about offgassing, etc. Sweets Catalog probably has listings for companies making toilet partitions out of steel panels as well. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 8 22:04:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA06965 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:04:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21972; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:52:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:46:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA21559 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:46:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA21540 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:46:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.19] (blf47.acadia.net [205.217.217.47]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA12902 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:54:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:54:43 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Re: Design Criteria Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3601 Joyce Coppinger wrote very well about simplicity and flexibility in design, and added: "Aesthetics by the definitions I checked relates only to beauty, which is an essential part of building and environment for us all -- but not the ONLY element in design." This reminded me of something. Years ago, I had the good fortune to work with Christopher Alexander, the author of A Pattern Language and The Timeless Way of Building. We were talking about a building's "beauty". He pointed out that what we consider a "beautiful face" changes with the whims of fashion, with cultural norms, etc. But consider the SMILE on a person's face, and how it makes you feel - the smile reaches a much deeper place, and is more timeless and universal. Ever since that conversation, I've wanted to make a place that helps people feel the way they do when someone smiles at them. Most of the talk architects do about style and aesthetics leaves me kind of cold and sad, because it's obsessed with the "pretty face", but overlooks the "smile". David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 8 22:17:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07291 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:17:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA22558; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:04:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:59:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA22163 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:58:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coyote.accessnv.com (jap2be@coyote.accessnv.com [207.168.90.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22159 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:58:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (jap2be@localhost) by coyote.accessnv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA16087; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:52:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:52:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Angel Cohen Reply-To: Angel Cohen To: Chuck Hinckley cc: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Health and Wellness Center In-Reply-To: <357BE02C.79C44D39@dreamscape.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3602 Chuck: Making something VIRTUALLY scentfree can be done with 100% cooperation of management and attendees. First and foremost is that the participants are to come there without scents on. Actually, trying to shower prior to working out and not 'powdering etc' up can decrease the IAQ. Also, their soaps and shampoos could and should be scentfreee. Even those people who put on scented products in the a.m. will still have a residual smell for those with MCS. The only thing that can help dilute this residue scent would be to apply rubbing alcohol to the area then just rinse with plain water. The towels for the lockers should be washed in a scentfree product and rinsed with Arm & hammer Baking Soda in the final rinse, this will remove all residual soap scents. No chlorine bleach or fabric softeners (liquid/sheets). Insist that all workout outfits be handled that way. THe locker rooms are not to have any air freshners at all in them. Cleaning/disinfectants can be use that are labled scentfree/environmentally safe. Actually, hydrogron peroxide is a good disinfectant. THere should be hepa filters in all the rooms to aid in the 'freshening' of the air. Under no circumstances should any sort of ozone generator be used. Ozone is a respiratory irritant and contra-indicated in all medical situations. It is complete unsafe for human inhalation. There are special filters for the intake vents that can help. In the rules and regulations for membership, insist on full compliance with a scent free environment. Making it know that if a member does come in with 'scents' on the management has the right to request they leave until they are 'safe. YOu will have those who feel they have a 'right' to wear such things. BUt if the club has signs and a written policy stating such they have to abide by those rules. Just the mere mention of fully complying with Federal Law regarding people with disabilities will get their attention. I think once the general public knows just what causes IA pollution and the dangers of them, they will usually comply. They have never really 'seen' the chemicals and toxic effects of such things. On the homepage that is still under construction there are 4 links to the most common triggers and dangerous chemicals in IAQ. http://www.freeyellow.com/members3/ntef-mcs/ I think if this is used as a handout when enforcing a scentfree environment and people see what actually is in it, they will comply. The elimination of carpet will help immensly, as the outgassing of new carpet is beyond words. Actually a large collection of rubber trees seems to aid in improving IAQ. Fliers/handouts printed with soybean ink will also decrease the formaldehyde in the normal printed pages. I hope this helps, please feel free to let me know if you are able to get compliance. I am trying to compile a list of safe offices, companies, stores, etc for these people. I remain, Angel De Fazio On Mon, 8 Jun 1998, Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Angel, > > Does your foundation have any guidelines for dealing with the IAQ issues > you addressed in your post, i.e. specific recommendations for > accomplishing "completely scent-free work out environment"? > > Chuck Hinckley > Ash Creek Design > Earlville,NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 8 22:46:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA08355 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:46:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA23649; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:33:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:28:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA23310 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:27:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coyote.accessnv.com (jap2be@coyote.accessnv.com [207.168.90.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA23302 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:27:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (jap2be@localhost) by coyote.accessnv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA16606; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:21:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Angel Cohen Reply-To: Angel Cohen To: Chuck Hinckley cc: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Health and Wellness Center In-Reply-To: <357BE02C.79C44D39@dreamscape.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3603 Forgive me I forgot to mention what I can almost assume would be covered...Non VOC paints, no particle board furniture, leather furniture of anykind (both outgass formaldehyde), no toliet bowl bluing/cleaning bars added to the tanks, liquid soap dispensers only with unscented soap. A new building can be outgassed but most people will not go thru the protocol. Basically, what you do is close all windows, turn the heat up all the way for 2 days, turn off the heat and air out the building for 1 day, then go in and clean EVERYTHING including walls with a solution of water and white vinegar. Then rinse again with water and Baking Soda. The air filters must be changed immeidately after the cleaning. This can immensly cut down the new building 'smell'. Angel ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 8 23:56:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA10441 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA26673; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:44:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:38:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA26200 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:37:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26193 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 23:37:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.254.3.77] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Mon, 8 Jun 1998 20:48:31 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Please help with materials Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 20:45:49 -0700 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1314783583-4057832@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3604 David About half a dozen companies that make these products are listed in REDI under the category "Above Grade Foundation Insulation Protection". (A category search for "foundation" will get you there.) That includes the trowel on products. However, there is also DFI Pultruded Composites, which makes a fiberglass cover. You might also consider a company called Hettinga, also listed in REDI. They make a board of recycled plastic that they position against pressure treated plywood. It might work in this application. If you find success with either of these products please let me know. Bruce S >First, we need to cover exposed exterior foam on a foundation. We have not >had luck with typical "trowel-on" coatings, such as ComProCo or >Stucco-Flex, finding that they have lousy durability. Pressure-treated >plywood is out of the question - this is for an organic farmers group, and >they won't even consider this option. On other buildings, we have used >coated aluminum coilstock, but this foundation was not poured well, and >there is enough "wave" in it to oilcan the metal. Metal lath and stucco >might be an option, except that is very expensive in our area. Any >suggestions would be welcome. ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 00:35:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11441 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA28443; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:22:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:17:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA28119 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:16:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA28113 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:16:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id VAA31164 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:25:09 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 8 Jun 1998 21:22:37 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: 2X6/4 To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id AAA28114 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3605 David, You quoted a study that stated: "2x6 walls cost an average of $1907 (U.S.) more to build than 2x4 walls, but save, on average, only $30 a year in energy costs for a 2000 sq. ft. home." I'm curious where they did the study, what the energy costs in the area were, etc. Perhaps, as we hear again and again, what's most important for energy savings are tight construction/insulation/seals, etc. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 00:59:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA12381 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:59:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA29460; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:47:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:41:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA29130 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA29124 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:40:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip19.ivnet.net [206.101.73.179]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA17318; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 20:45:27 -0700 Message-ID: <357CBDAD.EEAAEFAE@ivnet.net> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 21:44:29 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Wall thickness study References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3606 David M. Foley wrote: > > This month's Journal of Light Construction reports on a study reported in > Energy Design Update, February, 1998. The study was done for the > Polyisocyanurate Insulation Manufacturers Association, and concludes that > 2x6 walls cost an average of $1907 (U.S.) more to build than 2x4 walls, but > save, on average, only $30 a year in energy costs for a 2000 sq. ft. home. > Perhaps not surprisingly, the study found that 2x4 walls with an inch of > foam insulation on the outside were a much better value. > > Any comments? > > David Foley They must be getting a better price on 1" foam than me, or else they figure a much higher price for the lumber. Bruce Donelson A better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 01:05:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA12547 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:05:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA29794; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:47:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA29449 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:46:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA29441 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:46:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip19.ivnet.net [206.101.73.179]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA17363; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 20:51:33 -0700 Message-ID: <357CBF1B.7AC76BD@ivnet.net> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 21:50:35 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Please help with materials References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3607 David M. Foley wrote: > > We'd like some advice about 2 problems we're facing. > > First, we need to cover exposed exterior foam on a foundation. We have not > had luck with typical "trowel-on" coatings, such as ComProCo or > Stucco-Flex, finding that they have lousy durability. Pressure-treated > plywood is out of the question - this is for an organic farmers group, and > they won't even consider this option. On other buildings, we have used > coated aluminum coilstock, but this foundation was not poured well, and > there is enough "wave" in it to oilcan the metal. Metal lath and stucco > might be an option, except that is very expensive in our area. Any > suggestions would be welcome. > > Metal lath and stucco won't hold up terribly well below grade, either. I can't say I like the sound of this very well, but you could strap the foundation with Trex or something, then put the metal over that. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 01:16:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA12885 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA00213; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:04:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:58:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA29919 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:57:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA29913 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 00:57:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust23.tnt9.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.26.23]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA01229; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <357CC318.610@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 22:07:36 -0700 From: David Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Please help with materials References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3608 David M. Foley wrote: > > We seek a strong sheet material from which to make toilet > partitions. We'd like to keep formaldehyde outgassing to a minimum, and so > would like to avoid particleboard, MDF, etc. The other riddle is that our > panels will be 5 ft. by 5 ft. - I believe Medite II comes in 5x5, and it is formaldehyde free. Actually, the shadow of Hal Levin tells my conscience to insert that it is promoted as formadehyde-free. seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 02:03:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA14274 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 02:03:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA01380; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:51:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:45:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA00868 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:44:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (root@wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA00864 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 01:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip198.efn.org [204.214.97.198]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA28799 for ; Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:50:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert Bolman" To: Subject: GBlist: Slideshow tour Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 22:19:19 -0700 Message-ID: <01bd9366$27bd3320$LocalHost@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3609 To begin with, I now have a web site: www.efn.org/~robtb/ The northwest tour of my slide presentation entitled Natural Building and Social Justice is fast approaching. The following tour schedule is falling into place: Salem: Wednesday, June 17, on a Cob workshop (contact me if you'd like to attend) Portland: Thursday, June 18, Environmental Building Supplies 1331 NW Kearney St, Portland, OR 97207 7:00 pm, 503-222-3881 Oakville: Saturday, June 20, Permaculture West Event, call 360-273-7117 Olympia: Monday, June 22, Washington State Department of General Administration Building Auditorium, 11th Ave & Columbia Street, (north end of the state capitol campus) Olympia, WA Seattle: Wednesday, June 24, 6:30, Fremont Public Library, 731 N 35th (east of Still Life Café) Vancouver: June 27, Saturday, Granville Information Centre, Granville Island, Vancouver, BC, 10:00 am – 12:00 noon. Anyone wishing to host a presentation (even in a moderately full living room) is encouraged to contact me. Just set it up for a date that's not filled above. Plan on feeding me and putting me up for the night. Contacts for environmental groups that would potentially host me anywhere in the country would be appreciated. My slide presentation takes about 75 minutes. I use two projectors placing images on side by side screens thereby enabling me to compare and juxtapose images and ideas. This also enables me to “leapfrog” through about 300 slides (hopefully) without putting people to sleep. I begin by poking fun at the oversized, overpriced, environmentally clueless houses that have become so common in recent years. I waste no time in revealing my political agenda. I point out that while every effort is made to see to it that those that can afford an expensive house have a variety to chose from, those that are less fortunate (or less functional) are allowed to sleep on the streets of this very wealthy country (the United States). I then point to an alternative. I show many examples of Natural Building. Most notably, I focus on the highly innovative straw bale and earth structure I’m presently building in Eugene, Oregon. From straw bale to cob & adobe to the earthship concept, I try to show a broad overview including passive solar design, solar hot water, PV, gray water, catch water and permaculture. I also explore the rich historical precedent for this type of building with a few examples of Natural Building from around the world. I then begin talking with hard numbers about the poor distribution of the world’s wealth. While 90 % of my presentation focuses on Natural Building, it is at this point that it begins to sound like a political tirade as I suggest that U.S. foreign policy has served to perpetuate this poor distribution of resources. I then talk about a shanty town that I explored in Mexico. I suggest that from an environmental point of view, it would be better for us to live like them than for them to somehow achieve our lifestyle. I suggest voluntary simplicity. I close by talking about human consciousness and the need to learn to see the world a little more clearly. I end with photos of trees and children to serve as a reminder of why we must do the best we can to save the world for future generations. I am comfortable sharing my presentation with groups ranging from a living room full of people up to large crowds. I bring my own projectors with zoom lenses to accommodate a variety of room sizes and situations. I’ll provide a screen unless a screen or a white wall is already available in the room. The following paragraph is from a thank you letter sent to me by Youth for Environmental Sanity (YES): “Your slide show was fantastic! It was unanimously voted the best guest presentation at our 2 Week Sustainable Living Skills Retreat July 20-August 2, 1997. It was fast-paced, witty, hilarious, educational, and powerful. To get across so much information, and yet have it be so entertaining is a rare gift in a presenter. A gift that you have in abundance.” ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 08:17:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA22572 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:17:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09171; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:00:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA08912 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from server.totalnetnh.net (server.totalnetnh.net [207.180.176.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA08875 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 07:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.180.176.93] (s23.terminal1.totalnetnh.net [207.180.176.93]) by server.totalnetnh.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA24448 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:07:57 -0400 Message-Id: <199806091207.IAA24448@server.totalnetnh.net> Subject: GBlist: RE: Please help with materials Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:10:29 -0400 x-sender: wsmith@server.totalnetnh.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bill Smith To: "Gblist" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3610 David, For the toilet partitions you might want to contact the people at: Medite, P.O. Box 4040, Medford, OR 97505 (800) 676-3339. Another poster mentioned their product, mediteII. I would suggest that their medex product would be more suitable as it is more moisture resistant. It comes in sheets from 3/8in to 1 1/8in thick and up to 5ft X 18ft. I am going to be talking to the New England distributors (Atlantic Plywood and Allied Plywood) today. If you would like any further contact info (which is currently in my truck, rats!) email me off list and I'll get it back to you. Bill Smith Concord, NH williammsmith@usa.net This sig line brought to you by: COMMERCIAL MULTICONGLOMERATE INC. LTD ETC.ETC.ETC. IF WE SELL IT, YOU NEED IT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 08:32:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA23015 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:32:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09721; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:20:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:16:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09354 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:15:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09350 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA18782; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:24:05 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:24:06 EDT From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Wall thickness vs cost To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: dmfoley@acadia.net X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199806090600.CAA01715@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3611 The issue of cost of walls built with 2x6/ 2x4 has been raging ever since I got involved in house construction. Since the early '80s our code required R20 or so walls, so 2 approaches were used -- 2x6 with R20 batt or 2x4 with R12 batt+ R7.5 of styrofoam (EXPS, not EPS). Lately, the price of foil-faced polyisocyanurate (e.g., Thermax) has dropped so much, and its R-value is over-rated, so this is used instead. I have heard of numerous recent studies that are tending toward 2x4 with insulating sheathing versus 2x6. Certainly, if you place 2x6's at 16" centers like 2x4's you waste lumber and the volume of wood in the 2x6 wall is 50% higher. Some regions use 2x6 at 24" o.c. to compete with 2x4 at 16" o.c. Other differences are the need for wood sheathing -- some 2x6 walls use OSB sheathing, whereas some 2x4 walls use metal strapping for the structural purpose and the rigid insulation as the backing for the siding or brick. Depending on sheathing and stud spacing combination, a 2x4 wall with metal straps can contain less than half the wood of a 2x6 wall, or as much as 80% as much. BUT HOLD THE PRESSES -- THESE TWO WALLS ARE NOT THE SAME. Wood studs are thermal bridges. Wood rim joists, top and bottom plates and window frames are bigger bridges. Typically up to 20% of the wall area of a house is wood and these bridges reduce the R-value of a 2x6 wall with R19 batt to less than R14. The 2x4 wall with R5 insulation is actualy superior, thermally, than the 2x6 with R19 batt. This reduces cold studs too. Even more importantly, insulating sheathing greatly increases the temperature of the backside of the sheathing. Hence air leakage and diffusion will not result in condensation within the framing, even when the outside temperature is -20 or so. This means an incredible increase in durability. But there is more. Insulating sheathing greatly reduces the influence of wind washing, the cooling caused when air flows behind the cladding. Wind-washing is the most common cause of mold at corners, and often causes high energy losses. Even without taping the joints on many sheathings, air tightness can be improved. I have tested walls which had more pressure drop across Styrofoam than across the intended poly air barriers. Finally, rigid insulation provides an additonal non-capillary-active drainage plane that aids in the rain control by the drained-screened approach, maintains the wood framing at a more stable tamperature and RH (thereby reducing movements that can cause cracking and increased air leakage). Sorry for the long post -- but pretending that 2x4 walls with insulating sheathing are comparable, let alone equivelant, to 2x6 with OSB is simply missing the point of enclosure wall performance. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 08:36:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA23216 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:36:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09958; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:19:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09526 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09517 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:18:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA22580 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 1998 08:27:24 -0400 Message-id: <3575365@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 09 Jun 98 08:27:27 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Please help with materials To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3612 --- You wrote: First, we need to cover exposed exterior foam on a foundation. --- end of quote --- I have been switching to a mineral wool board called Roxul instead of foam below grade (and above in masonry const) because it is not attractive to insects. Covering it is still an issue above grade (although it doesn't degrade like foam from UV, I suspect). The deciding factor is how much is exposed. I haven't used it, but I'm tempted to cover it with high-density fiber cement panels - like the cement asbestos board people used to use in similar situation. I wonder about recycled slate roofing pieces in locations where distance to grade is minimized. Roxul Inc. 551 Harrop Drive Milton, Ontario L9T 3H3 800 265-6878 Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 08:46:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA23512 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:46:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10364; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:33:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:29:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA10063 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10059 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:28:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id FAA22087; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 05:34:34 -0700 Message-ID: <357D2BA0.56380EFA@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 05:33:36 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jean Gallagher CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: KOHLER & WINES References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3613 This is a difficult one to know where to start. I used to boycott Jane Fonda movies (it is not difficult) but it was not as a result of being a redneck rather I was in the James Wines avant garde camp and owed my feelings about Jane to an obscure movie entitled Letter to Jane by Godard. I'm not sure who I thought I was being better than (Jane I guess) but I was trying to be good/do good. I spent the first half of my adult life life ensconced as a budding academic and fine artist within a very small and narrow world known as the higher end of contemporary art. At the time (70's) media, art history, architecture and music to some extent were strongly intermingled within a common sense of practice or at least critique. James Wines contributed to the dialogue within this small world with contributions to Best. There is an aspect of cultural criticism to his work that could be said to be relevant to understanding some of the less environmentally responsive aspects of our culture. That is the most generous thing I could say. I am not up to date on his recent work, perhaps that is because there has been little contribution to green design that I would have noticed. I think the architecture profession has had little to contribute to environmental design as the roots of contemporary architecture diverged strongly from the more literary and social origins of the environmental movement. I agree that there has been a lack of expression of aesthetics in most green design work. Green building has been either a technical development and the facade has not been the focus or it has been expressed as 'natural' building and the sources for this have been either more primitive or as Wines said part of an earlier 20th century 'arts and crafts' vernacular. Another part of this problem is that what constitutes ideas of good design in contemporary architecture is still viewed in terms of Modernism. Modernism could be simply described as a cultural response to the development of technology,industry, and urbanity as progressive forces. At the rise of modernism the more literary, historical and anthropological sources of a potentially more 'natural building' movement were considered regressive and at the time there was a disturbingly strong connection between 'natural building' and the rise of german fascism (but then Philip Johnson was also a member of the Nazi party so go figure). This is all being put too simplistically but I think what I'm trying to say is that when Wines dismisses the work of a number of green architects (who?) as bad design - the comment is really too simple to be relevant. In other words the sense or understanding of what we consider to be good or bad design has tangled roots. I think Terry put it much better when he said make a building people will save (though my first thought was of some of the worlds longer lasting slums) John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jean Gallagher wrote: > David, > > Back in the 70's, when I lived in South Carolina, there was a local barbeque > magnate named Maurice Bessinger who flew the biggest American flag in the > universe at his establishment (PIGGY PARK) and was an avowed racist. Friends > of mine said they wouldn't eat his barbeque, although they admitted it was > the best for miles. I said: how does that make you different from the > rednecks who boycott Jane Fonda movies because of HER politics? > > The Kohlers are also huge supporters of art, which brings us to the probable > reason you don't like James Wines. He designs "weird," artsy buildings. Well, > guess what, if you get avant-garde architects and designers on the side of > green building, 60% of the battle will have been won. You should only hope > that Wines starts designing green, even if you hate the way his buildings > look. > > Jean > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 09:16:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA24387 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:16:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11666; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:00:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11318 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:59:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11298 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA22400; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 06:05:30 -0700 Message-ID: <357D32DF.7F05512E@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 06:04:31 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Please help with materials References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3614 Hi David, A prefinished cement board or even a precast conc. 'patio stone' might be suitable depending on height of foundation wall. One method of creating dividers is to use a solid wood 2x6 t&g decking material with a top and bottom track. The material should be readily available or could be custom profiled and definitely meets a lot of criteria including potential for reuse (user friendly for carving initials into). For sheet material you might want to look at strip laminated material (like the pine sheets Ikea and similar companies use for component furniture) John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. David M. Foley wrote: > We'd like some advice about 2 problems we're facing. > > First, we need to cover exposed exterior foam on a foundation. We have not > had luck with typical "trowel-on" coatings, such as ComProCo or > Stucco-Flex, finding that they have lousy durability. Pressure-treated > plywood is out of the question - this is for an organic farmers group, and > they won't even consider this option. On other buildings, we have used > coated aluminum coilstock, but this foundation was not poured well, and > there is enough "wave" in it to oilcan the metal. Metal lath and stucco > might be an option, except that is very expensive in our area. Any > suggestions would be welcome. > > Second, we seek a strong sheet material from which to make toilet > partitions. We'd like to keep formaldehyde outgassing to a minimum, and so > would like to avoid particleboard, MDF, etc. The other riddle is that our > panels will be 5 ft. by 5 ft. - most U.S. sheet goods are 4 ft. by 8 ft., > so potential for excessive waste is great. The budget is for hardwood > plywood, so not all alternatives would be affordable. The product should > hold up in a damp environment (a public restroom) and should have excellent > screw-holding ability. Again, any suggestions would be welcome. > > Thanks very much! > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 09:24:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA24801 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12105; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:07:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11800 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.state.vt.us (mail.state.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11794 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:07:11 -0400 (EDT) From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Received: from vdhvax ([159.105.135.2]) by mail.state.vt.us (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-44988U13000L13000S0) with SMTP id AAA183 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:15:14 -0400 Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:14:35 -2359 Message-Id: <98060909143483@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Wall thickness vs cost (and a retrofit question). X-VMS-To: SMTP%"greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3615 What about 2x6 wall (24" o.c.) with rigid insulation outside? A retrofit question: Looking at a 100 year old stick-built home. 2x4 construction. Blown in cellulose in the wall. Some detoriating lead-based paint on one wall in a room in the NE corner of the house. I'm planning on putting in floor to ceiling built-in bookshelves on that wall, and I'm worried that the books will help keep the wall cold (but not be a good vapor barrier). As a short-term kill-two-birds-with-one-stone solution, I'm thinking about using 1.5" of Tuff-R on the interior of the wall underneath .5" drywall. (See Nov/Dec 97 issue of Home Energy for a discussion of this.) It looks like I'll be replacing the siding in a couple of years, and at that time I hope to remove the old siding and add 1" of Tuff-R to the exterior. My concern would be in the NE room only, having the rigid insulation on the interior and exterior of one wall. The interior portion would be installed to serve as a vapor barrier. My concern is that the exterior portion in this wall will also serve as a vaper barrier. Not knowing all the pathways into this wall, I'm wondering about the possibility that moisture would find its way into the wall and not find its way out. I have no interest in becoming a mold farmer. Am I making a mountain of a molehill? Mike mrogers@vdh.state.vt.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 09:49:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA25521 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:49:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13179; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:37:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:33:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12828 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12820 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:32:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.132] (pm3a22.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.212]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23582; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:41:06 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Please help with materials Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3616 At 9:33 PM -0400 6/8/98, David M. Foley wrote: >Second, we seek a strong sheet material from which to make toilet >partitions. We'd like to keep formaldehyde outgassing to a minimum, and so >would like to avoid particleboard, MDF, etc. The other riddle is that our >panels will be 5 ft. by 5 ft. - most U.S. sheet goods are 4 ft. by 8 ft., >so potential for excessive waste is great. The budget is for hardwood >plywood, so not all alternatives would be affordable. The product should >hold up in a damp environment (a public restroom) and should have excellent >screw-holding ability. Again, any suggestions would be welcome. I'd recommend you consider WheatBoard, made by the PrimeBoard company in North Dakota, if you can get hold of it. It is a wheat-straw-based particleboard made with polyurethane (MDI) binder, so it will not offgas formaldehyde. But it will need to be well sealed for your application--perhaps even laminated with an impervious layer. It is produced in 5' x 10' panels, which sounds just right. Medite is probably also available in 5' width and uses a non-formaldehyde binder. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 10:37:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27245 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:37:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15700; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:25:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:21:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15079 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:21:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15075 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:20:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA24406 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 1998 10:29:28 -0400 Message-id: <3577254@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 09 Jun 98 10:29:31 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Wall thickness vs cost To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3617 I agree with all John says, except something which is implied - that is, that 2x4 walls with metal bracing and foam sheathing is a good durable wall. (Joe Lstiburek's Cold Climate Manual almost doesn't show any other wall, BTW). What I don't like is that only foam separates the wall cavity from outdoors, especially in the case of siding over furring strips, where there is a air space over the foam. I worry about insects and mice getting into the walls. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 10:52:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27947 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16725; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:39:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:35:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16298 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:35:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16294 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:35:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA24622 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 1998 10:44:01 -0400 Message-id: <3577479@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 09 Jun 98 10:44:05 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Please help with materials To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3618 --- You wrote: First, we need to cover exposed exterior foam on a foundation --- end of quote --- I wrote about Roxul, which is currently available only in one inch thickness for foundation insulation (and drainage). Their intent is to come out with thicker product this summer. I should add that I have worked quite hard to keep foundation insulation inside the foundation since the dual problems of covering it and insects (with foam) are ever-present. This has its own detailing issues! Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 11:08:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28697 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:08:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17621; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:55:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:51:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17270 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:51:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17264 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:51:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.162.253.95] (d75.best1.net [205.162.253.95]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA16543; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:00:01 -0700 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 08:01:04 -0700 To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: Wall thickness study Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3619 , and concludes that >2x6 walls cost an average of $1907 (U.S.) more to build than 2x4 walls, but >save, on average, only $30 a year in energy costs for a 2000 sq. ft. home. >Perhaps not surprisingly, the study found that 2x4 walls with an inch of >foam insulation on the outside were a much better value. > >Any comments? > To simply substitute 2X6 for 2X4 is not enough. A truer comparison would be 2X4 16"0c vs 2X6 24" oc. Structurally there is enormous redundancy in 2X6 16"oc in normal applications. ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 12:00:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00735 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:00:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20305; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:48:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:44:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA19893 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:44:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19885 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:44:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from drucker.niehs.nih.gov (drucker.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.15.129]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA16801 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:52:50 -0400 Received: by drucker.niehs.nih.gov with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:52:49 -0400 Message-ID: <8DD3D27DC6A5D111823200A0C955FB401684CE@drucker.niehs.nih.gov> From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: GBlist: goodbye friends Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:52:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3620 my favorite list and what great people! alas i must de-scribe for a while. i made the small victory of being able to work from home a couple days a week and i find the mail overwhelming when i return. i'm going on a journey now, focusing my attention on health issues brought on by this crazy toxic world. thank you, all of you, for caring to do things differently. i'll miss you. olivia james3@niehs.nih.gov ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 12:34:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01683 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:34:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21935; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:18:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21575 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:18:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Netcube.ntwrks.com (root@Netcube.ntwrks.com [192.154.76.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21571 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:17:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ntwrks.com (ppp7.ntwrks.com [192.154.76.11]) by Netcube.ntwrks.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA28613; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:28:34 -0400 Message-ID: <357D614D.4C3A4157@ntwrks.com> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 12:22:37 -0400 From: Charles Brown Reply-To: charles_brown@ntwrks.com Organization: Brown & Jones Architects, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Please help with materials References: <3575365@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3621 The disadvantage of using roxul in that condition is that it is (I am guessing) very susceptible to moisture, which eliminates any insulative value it might have. In North Carolina, exterior perimeter insulation applications are required to have an inspection gap for termites at the top of the insulation. We have been specifying extruded polystyrene insulation (the only insulation that is closed-cell and impervious to moisture) with a synthetic stucco coating with reinforcing mesh for strength. One builder pre-cuts the lengths of insulation with a bevel and installs reinforcing mesh and base coat in the shop or on-site. The panels are then adhered to the concrete turned-down slab edge and the finish coat applied. For your information, at my suggestion, this builder also tried to use insulation board as the interior formwork surface for the concrete pour, with the idea then of beveling off the edge and finishing the material. Bad idea (mine). 1. Too confusing dimension-wise for the concrete guy. 2. Hard to bevel the material correctly and in a straight line while in place. 3. Foam doesn't adhere to the concrete. 4. Foam gets beat up badly during construction. Wayne Jones Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > --- You wrote: > First, we need to cover exposed exterior foam on a foundation. > --- end of quote --- > I have been switching to a mineral wool board called Roxul instead of foam > below grade (and above in masonry const) because it is not attractive to > insects. Covering it is still an issue above grade (although it doesn't > degrade like foam from UV, I suspect). The deciding factor is how much is > exposed. I haven't used it, but I'm tempted to cover it with high-density > fiber cement panels - like the cement asbestos board people used to use in > similar situation. I wonder about recycled slate roofing pieces in locations > where distance to grade is minimized. > > Roxul Inc. > 551 Harrop Drive > Milton, Ontario L9T 3H3 > > 800 265-6878 > > Marc > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Brown and Jones, Architects 16 N. Boylan Ave. Raleigh, NC 27603 (919) 831-2625 FAX 831-2626 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 12:56:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02415 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:56:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23004; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:44:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:40:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22646 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:39:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22642 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:39:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet3 [134.117.136.23]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id MAA12755; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:48:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id MAA22931; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:48:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 12:48:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806091648.MAA22931@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: WC stall partitions (was re: Please help with materials) Cc: dmfoley@acadia.net Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3622 on Mon, 8 Jun 1998 dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) wrote: [snipped & pasted for brevity] > we seek a strong sheet material from which to make toilet > partitions.... keep formaldehyde outgassing to a minimum, > 5 ft. by 5 ft. > should have excellent screw-holding ability Hello David and StallHeads; My first thought was that in this application, formaldehyde offgassing might constitute an improvement in IAQ. The second thought was that salvaged slate chalkboards might be a pretty good choice for the partition material... finished both sides from the start, ...excellent for graffiti (might be a good idea to provide chalk/ledge too)... low maintenance ... chemically inert... timeless basic black... and perhaps best of all, cheap like borscht ($2.50 psf for ~ 3/4" thick here in Ottawa). If the chalkboards are deemed too thin as-is, perhaps they could be laminated... sandwiching some steel reinforcement if necessary. 5' x 5' (usually they're larger than that, eh ?) should not be a problem. Perhaps instead of screw-mounting items like dispensers, they could be adhesive-mounted (say with structural grade silicone or some- such ?) * Another thought was that perhaps tilt-up concrete panels could be cast... using any of the myriad options for "designer finishes". * Another along-the-re-use-of-existing-resources-line-of-thought was insulating window glass units salvaged from office tower retrofits. 5' x 5' is a not uncommon size... and the 1/4" glass thickness is reasonably unfragile. To render the glass obscure, perhaps one or both panes could be sandblasted ... or the airspace might be filled with something (crushed glass ? sand ? computer parts ?). -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 14:54:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06062 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00159; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:41:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:37:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA29599 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:37:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA29595 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:37:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gorf.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@gorf.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.89]) by donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id OAA23547 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:45:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by gorf.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with SMTP id OAA08732 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:45:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:45:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@gorf.rs.itd.umich.edu To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: manufacturing energy of insulating sheathing (polyisocyanurate) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3623 Dear helpful list members- Would anyone have energy consumption data available on the manufacturing of those green "polyisocyanurate foam board insulation panels with inorganic facers"? (the one brand name I have is Celotex). Thanks in advance. Best, Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greening-of-Dana homepage http://www.snre.umich.edu/greendana/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Reppe e-mail: reppe@umich.edu National Pollution Prevention Center phone : 734-936-2535 University of Michigan fax : 734-647-5841 430 E. University Ann Arbor, MI http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub 48109-1115 U.S.A. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reppe -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 15:05:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA06421 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:05:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00955; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:52:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:48:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA00591 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:48:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from essential.essential.org (essential.org [198.4.52.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00587 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 14:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from essential.org (meghan.essential.org [198.4.52.7]) by essential.essential.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11062; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:00:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <357D8797.D38A6C5A@essential.org> Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 15:05:59 -0400 From: Meghan Clancy-Hepburn Reply-To: mch@essential.org Organization: resource conservation alliance X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arlist , greenbuilding list , pulp paper list , Aisha Ikramuddin , dogwood listserve Subject: GBlist: Victory for Ag-Based Products! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3624 The Resource Conservation Alliance and the Government Purchasing Project have been working with Senator Harkin's staff for several months to help him to get the provision mentioned in this press release (see below) through committee. In the coming weeks, Senator Harkin will move to introduce similar language promoting ag-based products into the appropriations bills of three other agencies-- EPA, GSA, and USDA. The Resource Conservation Alliance would like to thank Senator Harkin for his dedication to and support for ag-based products. It is our hope that his continued hard work in support of this issue will give an even higher profile to ag-based paper, construction materials, and biocomposites. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ U.S. SENATOR TOM HARKIN OF IOWA http://www.senate.gov/~harkin/ (202) 224-3254 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE June 4, 1998 Contact: Patrick Dorton/Christopher Moody AFTER ETHANOL VICTORY, HARKIN PUSHES U.S. GOVERNMENT TO NEXT EFFORT TO PROMOTE ALTERNATIVE AG PRODUCTS: Directive Would Have Dept. of Defense Move More Quickly to Purchase Ag-Based Products WASHINGTON-- Calling it, "the next step the government should take to promote ag-based products," U.S. Senator Tom Harkin announced today that he has inserted a provision in the Senate Defense Appropriations bill that directs the Pentagon to purchase environmentally beneficial products. Harkin is the ranking Democrat on the Agriculture Committee and a member of the Senate Defense Appropriations Subcommittee which approved the provision earlier this week. "The federal government is the largest purchaser of goods in the country. By aggressively leading the way in the purchase of ag-based products that are beneficial to the environment, the federal government will help build a nationwide market for these goods," said Harkin. Examples of environmentally preferable products include industrial oils, lubricants, greases, coatings and building material made from corn and soybeans. "Although the Department of Defense is currently supposed to be purchasing more agri-based, environmentally friendly products, red tape and infighting at the Pentagon have stalled this process," said Harkin. "These new purchases will lead to a cleaner environment, a stronger farm economy, and in the long run, save taxpayer dollars." Harkin is working to increase the use of environmentally preferable products by the federal government through inserting provisions in several appropriations bills including those that fund the DOD, EPA, GSA, and USDA, which will provide financial resources and direction to federal agencies. These measures are expected to be finalized by September. Harkin also wrote the Administration in April of this year laying out a plan that includes the modification of the Executive Order concerning all federal procurement and a specific 13-step program to increase the use of ag-based products by the federal government. The Defense Appropriations bill is now headed for the full Senate Appropriations Committee and on to the Senate floor. -30- -- Meghan Clancy-Hepburn Campaigns Director Resource Conservation Alliance P.O. Box 19367 Washington, DC 20036 tel: 202.387.8030 fax: 202.234.5176 email: mch@essential.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 18:49:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA13610 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:49:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12372; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:36:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:32:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA12007 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu (root@xipe-totec.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA12003 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:32:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from angle.cacr.caltech.edu (angle.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.72]) by mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA12778; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806092240.PAA12778@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> X-Sender: mac@delilah X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 15:41:26 -0700 To: John Salmen From: mac@cacr.caltech.edu (b. lamprecht) Subject: GBlist: Re: The Wall /Metropolis article Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3625 Thank you John for replying to my query for the Metropolis article: I would be interested in hearing you elaborate on this last portion of your feb 28 ( 2:19 p.m.) from the threads called `Studs and Framing' and 'Framing Light' : ``I for one would like to see walls be nothing more than infill either of low value in themselves or having a high potential for reuse. Prior to stick framing walls generally had this advantage or were structured in more defined layers." By `infill of low value' are you referring to post and beam framing like that of the early settlers, with wattle or comparable between members? What miight a wall with `a high potential for re-use' look like? More modular, more screws rather than nails and adhesives? SIPS or light-weight concrete blocks so openings can be cut out more easily? The issue of the wall seems to be one that drives architects and builders creatively: here in Southern California, Schindler, Wright, Neutra, Irving Gill -- all were coming up with different ways of understanding the wall and how it could be improved, and those were just a handful of american architects, let alone the Europeans. And I guess a bigger question would be, does improving the walls really really contribute to overall efficiency in single-family dwellings, since there is so much STUFF added to the rest of the house to make it saleable, stuff that doesn't respond to using a space well so much as blending in with cultural norms and images of upscale domesticity (Rick Darfler mentioned a figure of 2.2% for a one-story 2x6 stud wall for the lumber and plywood, I assume that means slab on grade.) Would either of the two alternatives for walls empower a homeowner using the wall, perhaps by eliminating the need for stud sensors and toggle bolts all together, providing a more transparent system, less opaque, either in in a literal or figurative sense? barbara lamprecht ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 18:56:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA13829 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:56:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12950; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:44:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:40:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA12623 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:40:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA12615 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 18:40:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id SAA02353 for ; Tue, 09 Jun 1998 18:48:48 -0400 Message-id: <3583876@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 09 Jun 98 18:48:52 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Please help with materials To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3626 --- You wrote: The disadvantage of using roxul in that condition is that it is (I am guessing) very susceptible to moisture, which eliminates any insulative value it might have. --- end of quote --- Roxul is an incredibly hydrophobic material (resists wetting) and is specifically manufactured as a drainage board as well as an insulation. I took a piece of Roxul semi-rigid batt and put it in a bucket of water with a brick on it. The next day, I lifted the brick off, and the batt popped up like a balloon. The same experiment with a competing product was akin to lifting up a sponge. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 19:17:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA14488 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:17:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA14032; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:05:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:01:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA13761 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:01:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR03 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.159]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13755 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 19:01:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default - 208.250.155.105 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:08:59 -0700 From: "Patricia Meeks" To: "GBList" Subject: GBlist: NY Times - States Fight Urban Sprawl Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:08:48 -0700 Message-ID: <000101bd93fb$9116b220$699bfad0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3627 FYI - Thought some list members might be interested. The NY Times posted an article today on what some states are doing to fight sprawl. http://channel.nytimes.com/channel/iestart/nj-environ.html Patricia Meeks pmeeks@msn.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 21:14:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17444 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18177; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:01:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:57:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA17792 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:56:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA17788 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:56:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcoplos@aol.com Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 7NTZa14705; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:04:49 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:04:49 EDT To: pmeeks@email.msn.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: NY Times - States Fight Urban Sprawl Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3628 In regard to the Times article and others about the rising awareness of and various strategies to deal with sprawl, the National Association of Home Builders has been publishing articles criticizing any and all efforts to shape growth patterns. All those (including myself) who joined the organization because they provide by far the least expensive workmen's comp. are subsidizing this effort. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 21:20:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17979 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:20:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18881; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:08:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:04:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18343 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:04:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sparticus.eurekanet.com (root@sparticus.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18335 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:04:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host.eurekanet.com (port-01-13.athens.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.113]) by sparticus.eurekanet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA03251; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:57:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806100057.UAA03251@sparticus.eurekanet.com> From: "Matthew Bennett" To: , , Subject: Re: GBlist: Please help with materials Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:06:55 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3629 David, We always encourage our clients to insulate foundations and basements on the outside for obvious thermal performance reasons. The system I use in southeast Ohio is as follows: install metal flashing between foundation/foam and house as termite barrier; apply two coats masonry coating/sealer to foundation; adhere 2 inches of beadboard foam (EPS) with an adhesive/basecoat available from stucco companies; cover foam with two layers of 6-ply poly; after backfilling, cut off poly just above ground level; apply more basecoat to exposed foam and in this embed flexible "fabric" mesh; finally, apply a finish coat of masonry or synthetic stucco to suit. There may be areas and applications where metal flashing is not sufficient to avoid termite infestation. Matthew Bennett Dovetail Construction Company, Inc. ---------- > From: FUnger@aol.com > To: dmfoley@acadia.net; greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: Re: GBlist: Please help with materials > Date: Monday, June 08, 1998 9:47 PM > > David > > My suggestions for your two problems: > > 1) Get rid of the foam on the outside of the foundation. It's a termite > turnpike. If you aren't willing to saturate the surrounding ground with > pesticides you are sacrificing your entire building as termite food in order > to maximize savings of a few inconsiquential BTU's. That's not real > sustainable. > > 2) Check out sign supply places for your partitions. I just bought a sign made > out of some sort of foam filled plastic material that is probably not really > ecologically pure, but does come in weird sizes and would fit the need. Don't > know about offgassing, etc. Sweets Catalog probably has listings for companies > making toilet partitions out of steel panels as well. > > Fred > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 9 23:44:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA23112 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA24203; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:27:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23883 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:27:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23878 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:27:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA22521 for ; Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:35:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 23:35:38 EDT From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: GBList: Roxul To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199806100104.VAA18364@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3630 Marc is correct -- Roxul is very hydrophobic. I have seen similar product removed from a foundation of a test site in Germany after 12 years exposure, and after 7 years exposed on a roof (slope about 3:12). The moisture content was less than 1% by volume in both cases, negligble with respect to thermal properties. In our test hut at UW, we tested several basement insulations by installing them. After 6 years of exposure (about 3 years ago) I had the chance to dig some of them up. Both the EXPS and the UNTREATED glass fiber contained less than 1V% moisture content (the limit of my test accuracy). Since then Roxul has started priducing near by, and my many tests of their product and other insulations convinces me of that Roxul-type insulations are very well suited for many applications, with some clear benefits (price and recycled content). With regard to EXPS, I want to explode the myth that EXPS is compeletly impervious to moisture. This is not so. It does resist water intrusion much better than Roxul, but water is also very slow to leave. In many building situations, a high density, hydrophobic fibrous insulation will remain drier than high density EXPS. I am not say EXPS is not good in high moisture environments, just that it is not perfect, and other products can perform well. I have 20 year old papers of tests that show well over 50% by volume moisture content in EXPS because of combined temperature and moisture gradients. This, BTW, is why EXPS used in upside down roofs, is so heavy after 10 years of service -- it has picked up significant quantities of moisure. Alas, no product is perfect, athough we keep trying ... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 10 00:16:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA24119 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:16:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA25279; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:04:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:00:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA25059 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:00:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA25055 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:00:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.254.3.9] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:11:03 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: GBList: Roxul Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 21:08:18 -0700 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "John Straube" , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1314695832-1766434@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3631 >convinces me of that Roxul-type insulations >are very well suited for many applications, with some clear benefits >(price and recycled content). John I've heard rumors that the recycled content (ie slagwool from steelmaking) could not be verified and that there may be more virgin material than is often assumed. Do you know about Roxul specifically? Bruce S ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 10 08:30:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08199 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10036; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:17:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:12:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09665 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:12:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09659 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:12:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10233; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:20:43 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:20:44 EDT From: John Straube Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: GBList: Roxul To: Bruce Sullivan cc: Green Building X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <1314695832-1766434@irisinc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3632 On Tue, 9 Jun 1998, Bruce Sullivan wrote: >convinces me of that Roxul-type insulations > >are very well suited for many applications, with some clear benefits > >(price and recycled content). > > I've heard rumors that the recycled content (ie slagwool from > steelmaking) could not be verified and that there may be more virgin > material than is often assumed. Do you know about Roxul specifically? Rockwool is not an intrinsically recycled product. The recycled content decision is made, just as for glass fiber, by the producer. The recycled content is dependent on the particular plant from which a product comes. I know of several products that have low to nil recycled content, and others that have a very high content. Roxul is supposed to be 50% slag (from the nearby Hamilton steel mills) and 50% virgin basalt. I have no way to confirm this other than beleiving them (and I have seen trucks with slag driving into their plant yard). As usual, pushing the manufactuer for info, and telling them you are interested in a high recycled content is the way to direct the market. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 10 08:42:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08512 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:42:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11174; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:30:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:25:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA10844 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:25:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10836 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:25:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.51] (ua18.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.51]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA28262 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:33:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199806100057.UAA03251@sparticus.eurekanet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:43:33 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Please help with materials Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3633 >David, > >We always encourage our clients to insulate foundations and basements on >the outside for obvious thermal performance reasons. The system I use in >southeast Ohio is as follows: install metal flashing between >foundation/foam and house as termite barrier; apply two coats masonry >coating/sealer to foundation; adhere 2 inches of beadboard foam (EPS) with >an adhesive/basecoat available from stucco companies; cover foam with two >layers of 6-ply poly; after backfilling, cut off poly just above ground >level; apply more basecoat to exposed foam and in this embed flexible >"fabric" mesh; finally, apply a finish coat of masonry or synthetic stucco >to suit. There may be areas and applications where metal flashing is not >sufficient to avoid termite infestation. > > > Matthew Bennett > Dovetail Construction Company, Inc. Mat, As I understand metal flashing as termite barrier, it's purpose is less to keep termites out and more to make it easy to see the tubes they build which rotects them from exposure. That way you lnow when they begin an infestation and can respond quickly. I've seen tubes built out and around the flashing. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 10 10:16:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11313 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:16:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14952; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:04:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:00:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14470 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:59:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.rapidramp.net (mail.incredibyte.net [207.99.72.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14466 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:59:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806101359.JAA14466@solstice.crest.org> Received: from default [209.123.4.37] by mail.rapidramp.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.02) id A6ABF17026E; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:22:35 EST Reply-To: From: "Office of Sustainable Design & Construction" To: Subject: GBlist: Krypton gas Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:08:20 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3634 Thank you, Mark. . . . you will be amazed to learn I've already received a few Superman references. Seriously, we have an architect here who has never heard of krypton gas which is used as thermal material in low-e efficient window panes, and is concerned about using them where children might break the windows and be exposed to the stuff, such as in a city day care center or children's intake center. He is also concerned about liability issues. If anyone could refer me to some references on this I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks, Jennifer NYC Department of Design and Construction > >---------- >> >> Date: 08 Jun 98 17:36:36 EDT >> From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) >> Subject: Re: GBlist: krypton gas in low-e glass windows >> >> - --- You wrote: >> Are there any potential health dangers in the use of krypton gas in low-e >> windows? >> - --- end of quote --- >> If you have any workers on the job who come to work with a blue and red >suit, >> complete with cape, beneath their normal workclothes, beware! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 10 11:33:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13882 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:33:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19020; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:17:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18589 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:16:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18581 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:16:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ip18.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.37]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA39 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:26:01 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980610114103.00689204@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:41:03 -0400 To: From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Krypton gas In-Reply-To: <199806101359.JAA14466@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3635 Jennifer: According to what I remember from chemistry, Krypton is a noble gas, and is usually judged to be inert. A few years ago, I was contemplating using Xenon as a direct tracer for a combustion source, and remember a vague warning in the literature regarding anesthetic effects at high enough concentrations (like hundreds of ppm). There may be similar concerns for Krypton, but I doubt it. Take a look at one of the online periodic table sites. The table housed at Web Elements (http://www.shef.ac.uk/chemistry/web-elements/web-elements-home.html) is the only one that I'm aware of that actually addresses biological effects. A pessimist will tell you that noble gases can be forced to form compounds, but that usually takes extraordinary conditions. The general admonition to avoid undue concentrations that would replace oxygen naturally apply, but it's hard to imagine circumstances where that would prevail in enduse scenarios for high tech windows. (Hell, given the underlying costs of gathering enough together, it's hard to imagine a workplace hazard -- costs too much to waste the stuff). The caulk used for sealing the unit into the frame poses a higher risk (even if it's low-emitting). If the architect persists, you should be able to get an MSDS through the potential vendor that will state unequivocally that Krypton poses no realistic risk. Hopefully equipped with an appendix asking how an architect can escape chemistry altogether. Of parallel concern, though should be the expectations for long term service. Will the seals hold up? There's an enormous difference in insulation power between a Krypton-filled gap and an air-filled gap. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 10 18:08:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA28122 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:08:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08372; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:43:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:37:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA07969 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:37:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mag1.magmacom.com (mag1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.210]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA07963 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:37:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (port-2-171.magma.ca [206.191.63.171]) by mag1.magmacom.com (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA11365; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:45:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806102145.RAA11365@mag1.magmacom.com> Reply-To: From: "Stephen Thwaites" To: , "Harry Rector" Subject: Re: GBlist: Krypton gas Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:21:38 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3636 ---------- > From: Harry Rector > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: Re: GBlist: Krypton gas > Date: June 10, 1998 11:41 AM > > Jennifer: > > > Of parallel concern, though should be the expectations for long term > service. Will the seals hold up? There's an enormous difference in > insulation power between a Krypton-filled gap and an air-filled gap. > I wouldn't worry about detecting the krypton sneaking out. If the seal (and hence the krypton) is gone you'll soon see condensation between the glass - first during the winter then more often..... Once seal failure occours the biggest problem is not loss of R-value, but loss of view. Most window companies offer a ten and some a twenty year warranty against seal failure. Not long compared to the life of the building, but much better than the 5 yr. warranty common less than a decade ago. If you really want to do your home work look for window frames with glazing cavities that will remain dry. The #1 cause of seal failure are glazing cavities that get the sealant wet and don't let it dry out. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 10 19:21:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA00587 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:21:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11481; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:02:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:58:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA11131 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11125 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:58:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id SAA0000023495; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:07:07 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980610230944.006c7674@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 18:09:44 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3637 Would the owner of this list or someone else tell me how to contact specific persons on the list? I recall there was a way to do so but I copied the info for the strawbale list and that format doesn't work with this one. Thanks, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 10 19:43:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA01294 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:43:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12405; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:30:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:26:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA12122 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:26:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR03 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.159]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12118 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 19:26:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default - 208.250.155.156 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:34:38 -0700 From: "Patricia Meeks" To: "GBList" Subject: RE: GBlist: NY Times - States Fight Urban Sprawl Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 16:34:28 -0700 Message-ID: <000501bd94c8$502c6a20$9c9bfad0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <357EA9FF.4CDB@gte.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3638 Cindy, I couldn't get any search to work either. The article titles are: "A Tax To Buy Open Space Catches On In New Jersey" "Some States Tackling Urban Sprawl With New Taxes" The articles were from the NY Times, online, June 9th. Even a search of the archives wouldn't bring them up for me. The name of the htm file I saved is: "States Save Open Space.htm" Patricia Meeks pmeeks@msn.com -----Original Message----- From: Cindy Shea [mailto:mcshea1@gte.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 8:45 AM To: Patricia Meeks Subject: Re: GBlist: NY Times - States Fight Urban Sprawl Patricia, Thanks for the notice. I've been trying to view the article without success. My browser won't get me to your link and a search of the NYT site for "states fight urban sprawl" was unsuccessful. Is that the title of the article? Thanks, Cindy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 10 20:20:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA02742 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:20:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA13894; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:08:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:04:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA13671 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA13667 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:04:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA11-p52.dreamscape.com [209.4.254.116]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA20221 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:13:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <357F1FA8.F6294A5@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:07:04 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GBList Subject: Re: GBlist: NY Times - States Fight Urban Sprawl References: <000501bd94c8$502c6a20$9c9bfad0@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3639 Patricia Meeks wrote: > > Cindy, > I couldn't get any search to work either. The article titles are: > > "A Tax To Buy Open Space Catches On In New Jersey" > "Some States Tackling Urban Sprawl With New Taxes" > > The articles were from the NY Times, online, June 9th. Even a search of the > archives wouldn't bring them up for me. The name of the htm file I saved is: > > "States Save Open Space.htm" > It usually takes a couple days for articles to show up in the archives. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 10 22:10:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA06352 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17561; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:57:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:53:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17273 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17268 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:53:40 -0400 (EDT) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1BHHa14705 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:01:02 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <6eb13c78.357f3a60@aol.com> Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:01:02 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Smells when it rains Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3640 I'm trying to figure out an odor in a university building which is reported after it rains. The building is about 40 years old. The ductwork is extremely dirty, especially upstream of the filters/coils, where dampers and ductwork are coated with dirt that looks like something off the dark side of the moon. Any thoughts? Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 108 S. Albany St. Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX IMSHAPIRO@AOL.COM "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 11 00:06:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA09573 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 00:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21556; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:47:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21243 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:47:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA21238 for ; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:47:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DFFDBB4W; Wed, 10 Jun 1998 23:54:36 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 20:30:51 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Design criteria Message-ID: <19980610.204712.3438.2.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <5e688cd.357c4f09@aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-7 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Samantha L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3641 One more sentiment regarding aesthetics: isnt one of our goals to design spaces that are "healthy" for the occupants? I feel that to be healthy also includes the psychological health of the occupant, which is directly affected by the aethetics of the building. Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 11 14:54:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA03998 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26827; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:41:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:37:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26410 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:37:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26404 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:37:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.51] (ua18.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.51]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA21374 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:45:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 14:55:48 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: frost-protected shallow foundations and code Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3642 Hi folks, Does anyone know whether frost protected shallow foundations have been approved for use by NYS codes or by one of the model codes? - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 11 17:25:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA09027 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:25:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03328; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:13:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:09:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA02957 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:09:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA02952 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:09:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Alisa (usr0a83.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.83]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA15064; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:17:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980611171941.006b7408@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:19:41 -0400 To: Terry Brennan From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: frost-protected shallow foundations and code Cc: greenbuilding In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3643 At 02:55 PM 6/11/98 -0400, you wrote: >Hi folks, > >Does anyone know whether frost protected shallow foundations have been >approved for use by NYS codes or by one of the model codes? - Terry I am not sure on specific code acceptance but I have gotten some good info from the NAHB on FPSF's. The guidelines I received have it on the cover that they were prepared for HUD and the DOE. I would imagine that the NAHB research center would have a list of model codes that accept their specs. I also belive the NAHB has a web site- Give them a try ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 11 18:12:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA10286 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:12:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05552; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:59:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:55:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05225 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05216 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 17:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.254.3.112] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:06:41 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: frost-protected shallow foundations and code Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:03:55 -0700 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan cc: "greenbuilding" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1314544893-2596388@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3644 NAHB Research Center publishes a thin but informative report that shows how to design and build them. In addition to showing the details, the book may help sway a reluctant building official. You can see a description of A Guide to Frost Protected Shallow Foundations in the Iris Catalog < http://oikos.com/catalog/books/frostfoundations.html >. Bruce >>Does anyone know whether frost protected shallow foundations have been >>approved for use by NYS codes or by one of the model codes? - Terry > > >I am not sure on specific code acceptance but I have gotten some good info >from the NAHB on FPSF's. The guidelines I received have it on the cover >that they were prepared for HUD and the DOE. I would imagine that the NAHB >research center would have a list of model codes that accept their specs. I >also belive the NAHB has a web site- Give them a try ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 11 20:54:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA14776 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA11495; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:42:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:36:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11160 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:36:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA11151 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.37] (blf37.acadia.net [205.217.217.37]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA24396 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:44:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:45:06 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: frost-protected shallow foundations and code Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3645 >Hi folks, > >Does anyone know whether frost protected shallow foundations have been >approved for use by NYS codes or by one of the model codes? - Terry > Boy Terry, have you opened up a can of worms! The BOCA Building Code - the one most in use in Maine - states that foundations must penetrate below the frost line "or be otherwise protected from frost." Using the NAHB book as a guide, it should be possible to demonstrate that you are "otherwise protecting." But we have found that receiving acceptance is often at the whim of the local code enforcement official. Explicit acceptance of frost-protected shallow slabs is pending with CABO and BOCA. According to insider information - a source whom I can't name at BOCA - the concrete industry is lobbying heavily to have this type of foundation explicitly rejected. On a recent project, we designed a frost-protected slab for a small storage building. The local code officer insisted that we have our design reviewed by BOCA, at a cost of about $500. Furthermore, the code officer said that we must have it reviewed by a PARTICULAR person at BOCA. Our friend at BOCA gave us the inside story: the PARTICULAR guy was opposed to frost protected slabs, no matter what. So we had it reviewed by someone else at BOCA. It passed with flying colors. Our local code officer was very upset that we had managed to obtain BOCA approval. We have done frost-protected slabs for other jobs, including a fairly expensive commercial building, with no hassle at all. Federal Express recently constructed a 40,000 square foot facility in Maine on a frost-protected slab with no code-approval problems. So it may be that like any innovation, acceptance of frost-protected slabs will be very political and personal for a while. Be persistent. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 11 22:05:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA16858 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:05:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA13752; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:52:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:48:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA13434 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:48:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA13430 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 21:48:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.topher.net (ppp22.topher.net [206.136.138.181]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA06971 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:43:43 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199806120143.UAA06971@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: "greenbuilder" Subject: GBlist: Foundation Insulation Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 20:57:20 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3646 I must disagree with the statement that the perimiter insulation is inconsiquential as a thermal consideration. Most of the homes here (North Texas) are slab on grade with about 6"-8" of exposed concrete below the brick/stone/wood exterior wall. Concrete is a poor insulating material. These slabs have good thermal mass potential, but when uninsulated they can't contribute. That exposed edge will suck the heat out of the house in the winter. I agree that termites / insects can be a problem in foam. We chose to utilize a barrier of 16 grit, also known as double ought sandblasting, sand poured around the insulation for several inches out from the house. The grain size of this sand is such that termite tunnels will collapse and not allow them to establish their "highway." We also put boric acid and diatomaceous earth under and on the sole plate that our sip walls rest on. --------- original message ------- My suggestions for your two problems: 1) Get rid of the foam on the outside of the foundation. It's a termite turnpike. If you aren't willing to saturate the surrounding ground with pesticides you are sacrificing your entire building as termite food in order to maximize savings of a few inconsiquential BTU's. That's not real sustainable. ---------------------------------------- Regards, Paul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 11 22:31:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA17528 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:31:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14865; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:19:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:15:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA14513 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:15:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA14509 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:21:26 -0400 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF1355DA@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: GBlist: Floating Fountains Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:19:08 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3647 > The Bovis Cypress of Charlotte project in Charlotte, NC is looking for > manufacturers of floating fountains. For those of you who do not > know, these are fountains that actually float on top of the water > instead of being anchored to the bottom of the fountain. If anyone > has any contacts in this field, please contact me at the number or > e-mail address below. Thank you! > > Shelley Clontz > The Cypress of Charlotte > Ph: (704) 554-9121 > Fax: (704) 556-9813 > e-mail: clontzs@americas.bovis.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 11 23:16:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA19030 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA16538; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:04:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:00:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA16248 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:00:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA16244 for ; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:00:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000015116; Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:08:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980612031133.006cefbc@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 22:11:33 -0500 To: "Paul Westbrook" From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Foundation Insulation Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3648 At 08:57 PM 11-06-98 -0500, you wrote: >I agree that termites / insects can be a problem in foam. We chose to >utilize a barrier of 16 grit, also known as double ought sandblasting, sand >poured around the insulation for several inches out from the house. The >grain size of this sand is such that termite tunnels will collapse and not >allow them to establish their "highway." We also put boric acid and >diatomaceous earth under and on the sole plate that our sip walls rest on. Paul, how deep do you place that sand? and for how far? and do you know it works? Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 12 10:19:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10299 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:19:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11953; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:02:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11488 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:02:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11484 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:01:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA18287; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:07:54 -0700 Message-ID: <35813603.3B8774BF@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 07:06:59 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "b. lamprecht" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: The Wall /Metropolis article References: <199806092240.PAA12778@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3649 "infill of low value" could be an invitation for a lot of discussion if it wasn't summer. This was probably an inappropriate thing to say as I think that the materials of walls have historically represented high values - meaning that materials have always been thought of in terms of representing significant energy. Either energy expended in their cultivation, manufacture and use and potential energy derived from their properties. The thought that something (anything) could have 'low value' is the part that reflects on what our environmental values now consist of. 'Stick' framing as in 2x construction shares some similarity with the wattle 'stick' walls you mention. At points in their history they were both readily accessible vernacular or 'folk' materials, enabling people to build by simply putting them together with simple formula and minimal calculation (a crude definition of craft as compared to architecture). Any form of 'stick' however has value. The shortage of wood for fuel and the manufacture of charcoal put such a value on sticks that they were cultivated by coppicing. It is unlikely that this material at any point in its use or cultivation was considered a waste material or of low value, rather it always represented a loss of other potential use (a sacrifice) Straw or agricultural byproducts could be thought of in these terms as a material of low value, but similar to sticks it is only recently that this is thought of as a waste or byproduct material. The growing of wheat results in wheat, straw and a loss of soil. It should be obvious what the value of straw is in this relationship and what the 'sacrifice' is. It is interesting that much of our current trends in manufacture or resource use are based on alienating us from recognition of the inherent value of the original material(s). So when we build with 2x wood material the end result is packaged and obvious to us only as a 'wall' and when the 'wall' is removed it does not return to us as the original materials. This concept of wall does not ultimately empower a homeowner because there is no relationship to the wall other than to the surface. To get below the surface you employ a surgeon. For me the important thought in my previous post is the concept of defined layers and the values and functions embodied in those layers. All for now John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. b. lamprecht wrote: > Thank you John for replying to my query for the Metropolis article: > > I would be interested in hearing you elaborate on this last portion of your > feb 28 ( 2:19 p.m.) from the threads called `Studs and Framing' and 'Framing > Light' : > > ``I for one would like to see walls be nothing more than infill either of > low value in themselves or having a high potential for reuse. Prior to stick > framing walls generally had this advantage or were structured in more > defined layers." > > By `infill of low value' are you referring to post and beam framing like > that of the early settlers, with wattle or comparable between members? What > miight a wall with `a high potential for re-use' look like? More modular, > more screws rather than nails and adhesives? SIPS or light-weight concrete > blocks so openings can be cut out more easily? > > The issue of the wall seems to be one that drives architects and builders > creatively: here in Southern California, Schindler, Wright, Neutra, Irving > Gill -- all were coming up with different ways of understanding the wall and > how it could be improved, and those were just a handful of american > architects, let alone the Europeans. > > And I guess a bigger question would be, does improving the walls really > really contribute to overall efficiency in single-family dwellings, since > there is so much STUFF added to the rest of the house to make it saleable, > stuff that doesn't respond to using a space well so much as blending in with > cultural norms and images of upscale domesticity (Rick Darfler mentioned a > figure of 2.2% for a one-story 2x6 stud wall for the lumber and plywood, I > assume that means slab on grade.) > > Would either of the two alternatives for walls empower a homeowner using the > wall, perhaps by eliminating the need for stud sensors and toggle bolts all > together, providing a more transparent system, less opaque, either in in a > literal or figurative sense? > > barbara lamprecht ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 12 10:52:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11432 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:52:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13882; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:40:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:36:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13487 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (rcpublic1.nahbrc.org [207.49.88.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13482 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:36:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM by rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id pa047907 for ; Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:40:21 -0400 From: "Dan Cautley" Organization: NAHB Research Center, Inc. To: greenbuilding@crest.org, terry@dreamscape.com Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:43:34 -500 Subject: GBlist: Frost-protected shallow foundations Reply-to: dcautley@nahbrc.org In-reply-to: <1314544893-2596388@irisinc.com> X-Info: NT Mail Server Message-Id: <17402181215431@NAHBRC.ORG> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3650 A simplifed design method for Frost Protected Shallow Foundations, covering heated buildings only, was incorporated directly in the 1995 CABO One & Two Family Dwelling Code. Other ammended or locally written codes have adopted our Design Guide by reference, or otherwise accepted FPSFs, but we do not maintain a list of these jurisdictions. We are also working on an Amer Soc of Civil Engrs standard on FPSFs, which, when accepted, can be a referenced in codes. Before approach a code official about acceptance, you may want to have copies of the FPSF in Residential Construction Phase I and Phase II reports, which describe the analysis and field validation testing that we did under the sponsorship of HUD and Society of the Plastics Industry. The Design Guide for Frost Protected Shallow Foundations provides complete design information applicable to heated and unheated buildings. All three are available directly from NAHB Research Center, at $25 each. The Design Guide is also on the web at www.huduser.org, under Publications. > > >>Does anyone know whether frost protected shallow foundations have been > >>approved for use by NYS codes or by one of the model codes? - Terry > > > > > >I am not sure on specific code acceptance but I have gotten some good info > >from the NAHB on FPSF's. The guidelines I received have it on the cover > >that they were prepared for HUD and the DOE. I would imagine that the NAHB > >research center would have a list of model codes that accept their specs. I > >also belive the NAHB has a web site- Give them a try > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com > Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 > Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com > -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > Dan Cautley dcautley@nahbrc.org Phone 800-638-8556 x706 Fax 301-249-3265 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jun 13 12:37:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21889 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:37:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24240; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:18:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23913 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sparticus.eurekanet.com (root@sparticus.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23909 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:18:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from host.eurekanet.com (port-01-27.athens.eurekanet.com [206.150.170.127]) by sparticus.eurekanet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA05502; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:10:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806131610.MAA05502@sparticus.eurekanet.com> From: "Matthew Bennett" To: "greenbuilding" , "Terry Brennan" Subject: Re: GBlist: Please help with materials Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 12:26:45 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3651 Terry, Thank you for the clarification. Yes, that is my understanding as well. This summer, however, my concern is ants! Large and small black ants are invading the jobsite (and my house). The mild winter may have something to do with this. I'm curious if you or anyone else has advice about ant control. - Matt ---------- > From: Terry Brennan > To: greenbuilding > Subject: Re: GBlist: Please help with materials > Date: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 8:43 AM > >> Mat, > > As I understand metal flashing as termite barrier, it's purpose is less to > keep termites out and more to make it easy to see the tubes they build > which rotects them from exposure. That way you lnow when they begin an > infestation and can respond quickly. I've seen tubes built out and around > the flashing. - Terry > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jun 13 19:10:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02061 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:10:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03522; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:58:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:53:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03293 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:53:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.gis.net (home.gis.net [208.218.130.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03289 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.218.128.3] (pm1-ppp3.gis.net [208.218.128.3]) by home.gis.net (8.8.8/8.8.8+djf) with SMTP id TAA14681 for ; Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:06:43 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: markalla@gis.net (Mark and Alla Webster) Subject: GBlist: Anyone heard of Porcher toilets? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3652 We're redoing our bathroom and saw a nice looking toilet manufactured by Porcher. Does anybody have any experience with toilets from this company? --Mark Webster markalla@gis.net Newton, MA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 14 03:17:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA15737 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 03:17:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA13953; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 03:04:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Jun 1998 02:58:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA13642 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 02:58:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA13638 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 02:58:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay1.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA29590 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 03:06:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199806131610.MAA05502@sparticus.eurekanet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:52:23 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: ants Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3653 980613 Lots of medium to large ants in our part of Va, too. Other areas? jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 14 10:53:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26196 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:53:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20549; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:40:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:35:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20261 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20257 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa3-p62.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.126]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA12549 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:43:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3583E016.7E42F309@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:37:10 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Green building list Subject: Re: GBlist: ants References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3654 Yes, it is the year of the ant in central NY as well. Chuck Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA wrote: > > 980613 > > Lots of medium to large ants in our part of Va, too. Other areas? > jh > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 14 13:54:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00639 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:54:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25588; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:42:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:37:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25297 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:37:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25293 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:37:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA10685; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:43:34 -0700 Message-ID: <35840B83.EDF19626@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:42:27 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: REBAR Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3655 A couple of questions around rebar usage. I had come across a reference a while ago that rebar grids in walls and floors can create a harmfull interior environment. I've never been able to track down references as to what the connection to magnetic fields could be, and the only thoughts I've had is that ground coupling of a buildings reinforcement would be a conduit for naturally ocurring fields. I understand some of the principals of a faraday's cage but cannot see how that would be operative here other than some disruption of frequencies from entering the enclosed space. Does anyone have any more information on this as I would like to at least be aware of the potential or extent of concern here. I'm looking at a concrete project that will require significant reinforcement for stiffness and want to ensure beyond reasonable doubt that there is no potential effect from steel usage and also want to become aware of what alternatives are available. An alternative is fiberglass rebar and this could have some other benefits. Is anyone familiar with fiberglass rebar usage and under what usage it might be considered a good alternative and what some of the production values (emb. energy) might be in comparison to steel. Many thanks as always for having this place to ask these questions. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 14 14:38:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01746 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:38:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27843; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:25:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:21:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27380 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:21:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27374 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.topher.net (ppp11.topher.net [206.136.138.170]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA10286; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:16:19 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199806141816.NAA10286@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: "David F. Lambertson" Cc: "greenbuilder" Subject: Re: GBlist: Foundation Insulation - termites & ants Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:31:12 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3656 The short answer is 6" wide and 4" deep. For more information look at the following information . As with most organic programs it is a total approach. We took great care in our construction to minimize the slab penetrations and to make sure we put sand around those, as well as the barrier along the house edge. Our home is less than 2 years old, so a testimonial of it's effectiveness is a bit premature, but I decided it was worth a try vs. loading the soil with chemicals. As for the recent discussion about ant problems you can find some organic recommendations at . Regards, Paul ---------- > From: David F. Lambertson > To: Paul Westbrook > Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: Re: GBlist: Foundation Insulation > Date: Thursday, June 11, 1998 10:11 PM > > At 08:57 PM 11-06-98 -0500, you wrote: > > >I agree that termites / insects can be a problem in foam. We chose to > >utilize a barrier of 16 grit, also known as double ought sandblasting, sand > >poured around the insulation for several inches out from the house. The > >grain size of this sand is such that termite tunnels will collapse and not > >allow them to establish their "highway." We also put boric acid and > >diatomaceous earth under and on the sole plate that our sip walls rest on. > > Paul, how deep do you place that sand? and for how far? and do you know it > works? Sacie Lambertson > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 14 14:38:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01770 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:38:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27933; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:26:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:22:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27464 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from radon.math.tamu.edu (radon.math.tamu.edu [128.194.7.210]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27453 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fourier.math.tamu.edu (fourier [128.194.7.40]) by radon.math.tamu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23726; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:30:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Ruvane Marvit Received: from localhost (marvit@localhost) by fourier.math.tamu.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08204; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:30:39 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: fourier.math.tamu.edu: marvit owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 13:30:39 -0500 (CDT) To: Matthew Bennett cc: greenbuilding , Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Please help with materials In-Reply-To: <199806131610.MAA05502@sparticus.eurekanet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3657 you could try: http://www.whitehawk.com/dirtdoctor if i don't have the address right , it is web site of a Organic Landscape Archit in Dallas= Howard Garrett you will find the answer to that question and much more info that may in the future be useful to you. Marvit On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Matthew Bennett wrote: > Terry, > > Thank you for the clarification. Yes, that is my understanding as well. > This summer, however, my concern is ants! Large and small black ants are > invading the jobsite (and my house). The mild winter may have something to > do with this. I'm curious if you or anyone else has advice about ant > control. > - Matt > > > > > ---------- > > From: Terry Brennan > > To: greenbuilding > > Subject: Re: GBlist: Please help with materials > > Date: Wednesday, June 10, 1998 8:43 AM > > > >> Mat, > > > > As I understand metal flashing as termite barrier, it's purpose is less > to > > keep termites out and more to make it easy to see the tubes they build > > which rotects them from exposure. That way you lnow when they begin an > > infestation and can respond quickly. I've seen tubes built out and > around > > the flashing. - Terry > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 14 15:59:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA03880 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:59:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00774; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:46:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:42:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00475 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:42:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00470 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 15:42:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.254.3.128] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:53:50 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: ants Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 12:50:48 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green building list" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1314293665-2344573@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3658 A good source of detailed information about pest control is a book we sell through the Iris Catalog called Common Cents Pest Control. It describes virtually all kinds of plant and animal pests, provides details about their life cycles and suggestions on how to control them with a strong emphasis on the methods that are least harmful to the environment. You can see a decription and table of contects at .A large section is dedicated to pests that attack buildings. Bruce S ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 14 18:07:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA07656 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 18:07:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA04528; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:55:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:51:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04280 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:51:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04276 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:51:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA6-p57.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.185]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA19129 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35844679.B6CDDE6E@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:54:01 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Mole control Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3659 Any of you experienced sod busters know of any effective forms of mole irradication for my daughter's new organic garden? Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 14 20:23:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA10814 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:23:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA07635; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:06:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA07375 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:05:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jpusa.chi.il.us (root@jpusa.pr.mcs.net [205.164.2.80]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA07371 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 20:05:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.164.2.129] (peterson416.jpusa.net [205.164.2.129]) by jpusa.chi.il.us (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA24201 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:14:33 -0500 Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:14:33 -0500 X-Sender: patp@mailbox.jpusa.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding From: patp@jpusa.chi.il.us (Pat Peterson) Subject: GBlist: Living Roofs...waterproofing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3660 Hey folks, To put up a living roof, what are the recommended waterproofing substrates? >From what I can gather, my layers should be, from top to bottom: sod soil waterproof layer insulation decking joists Am I missing something here? Pat Peterson patp@jpusa.chi.il.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 14 22:59:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA15227 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12071; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:43:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA11801 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:43:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (daemon@smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA11795 for ; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:43:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16330; Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:51:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-227.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.227), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd016318; Sun Jun 14 19:51:35 1998 Message-ID: <35848C18.E8F611D5@primenet.com> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 19:51:04 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Mole control References: <35844679.B6CDDE6E@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3661 Try Juicy Fruit Gum (try not to touch the stick when placing it in the hole). This "plugs" them up and causes death. Easy to use and non-toxic (as long as you don't chew the stuff yourself). Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Any of you experienced sod busters know of any effective forms of mole > irradication for my daughter's new organic garden? > > Chuck Hinckley > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 15 05:26:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA24502 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 05:26:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA21794; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 05:13:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Jun 1998 05:09:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA21542 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 05:09:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA21536 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 05:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay1.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA15011 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 05:17:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35844679.B6CDDE6E@dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 05:11:43 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Mole control Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3662 980615 Moles? We have very few stinking moles, and we don't need any more. How do we control them? We have 2 employees who do the job really cheaply. They work without tools and most impressively, using only what God gave them. Youngest workers on our staff, and they live on premises, never straying too fur away. What could be more natural than mole control by 2 beautiful black cats? And if you ever see a green cat...check the label on that bottle if you can still read it. Now if they could only scare off the shrubbery munching deer (up to 10 visit at dusk sometimes), and, wow, do cats eat lily pads (spatterdock)? Reowworrr! Forgot about the water! jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 15 07:56:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA27746 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA25078; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:44:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:40:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA24783 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:39:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA24778 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:39:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id HAA23489 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:48:20 -0400 Message-id: <3638425@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 15 Jun 98 07:48:30 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Living Roofs...waterproofing To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3663 My understandng is only from book-learning... but I think that a fairly coarse, drainable medium beneath the soil keeps the soil from becoming waterlogged and killing the plants. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 15 08:04:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA27949 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:04:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA25476; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:52:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:48:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA25195 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:48:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.33]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA25190 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:48:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id TUOPa05732 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:56:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 07:56:21 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org (Greenbuilding) Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Mole control Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3664 In Texas, we use a few drops of Anise extract to run off the armadillos - it might work with moles as well. Just dribble a few drops by their "den" opening. (FYI - Anise extract smells like licorce & you can find it @ the grocery store. For Anise essetial oil (which is much stronger) get it at the health foods store. Good Luck! Regards, Cathy Flanders Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://members.tripod.com/~rkfabf/index.html IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 15 08:59:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA29402 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA27111; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:46:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:42:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26823 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:42:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26816 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:42:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA8-p24.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.216]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA05914 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:51:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3585174A.562ACBFD@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 08:44:58 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: The "greening" of Beverly Hills Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3665 NYTIMES- Water war in California's Owens Valley. Proposals in the 60-80 million dollar range and not one mention of conservation. http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/calif-waterwar.html Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 15 12:24:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA06735 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:24:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10251; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:05:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09831 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09823 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.188] (pm2a28.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.188]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA25466 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:13:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:10:34 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: A neat Australian project looking for e-mail support Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3666 Hi folks, I apologize for the length of this message, but this is an exciting project that I've been following for a couple of years (it was described in the March 1994 EBN), and I thought others might be interested in learning about it and/or sending a supportive e-mail. Thanks, Nadav HELP MAKE THE HALIFAX ECOCITY PROJECT A REALITY! The Halifax EcoCity Project is reaching a crucial stage. Finally, after years of delays, the Adelaide City Council is moving to sell that Halifax Depot Site in Adelaide, South Australia. Urban Ecology Australia Inc, in conjunction with Alpine Constructions, Hansen Yuncken (South Australia's largest private developer) and the South Australian Housing Trust ( State Government provider of low income housing) are one of the four groups short listed who have tendered for the development of the site. Urban Ecology Australia faces considerable competion, with large 'business as usual' developers keen to get their hands on one of the last major development sites in the Adelaide CBD. The tenders for the site were submitted on May the 19th, and the final decision as to the fate of the Halifax Site will be determined on June 30 1998. Urban Ecology is running an international email lobbying campaign to help galvanise an already supportive Council. THE ORGANISATION Urban Ecology Australia Inc. is a community based, non-profit organisation dedicated to the creation of ecological cities, cities which are in balance with nature. Urban Ecology Australia launched the Halifax EcoCity Project in 1992, and is also currently consulting on the Whyalla EcoCity development in the regional city of Whyalla, South Australia. THE PROJECT The Halifax EcoCity Project is a proposal to build a piece of EcoCity on a 2.4 hectare site in the central business district of Adelaide, South Australia. The project will be a mixed-use ecological development with 350-400 houses, on-site green businesses and extensive community facilities. The project's aim is to take development beyond simply getting back in balance with nature, it aims to heal damage that has been done. To this end it is proposed that degraded rural land equal to each resident's 'ecological footprint' be taken and restored back to ecological health. 42 acres of land has already been purchased. The energy for the project will be generated by the sun with excess power being fed back into the power grid. All storm water will be captured on site, and 100% of grey water will be recycled using reed bed recycling systems. All sewerage will be processed on site using a 'solar aquatic greenhouse' system. Materials will be non-toxic, allergy neutral, with as little embodied energy possible and drawn from ecologically sustainable sources. On site food production will be encouraged, and a local LETS system has already been established. Cars are excluded from the project, which is pedestrian and bicycle oriented. "Fingers of Green' run through the project providing habitat for local native animals. Disabled access is assured for virtually the entire project. The architecture of the project is designed to be highly energy efficient utilising passive heating and cooling and high mass construction, residents are intimately involved in the design of project through the 'barefoot architecture program' ensuring diverse and individual design within a strong basic framework. The project is committed to social equity and mix of social, economic, cultural and religious groups in the project. The South Australian Housing Trust (the State Government provider of low income housing) proposes to purchase a portion of the housing ensuring low income access, where residents will pay 25% of their income for housing, whatever its level. A variety of high and low income housing will be provided, with the high end dwellings subsidising the cost of low income dwellings. The Halifax EcoCity Project is a community driven development with volunteers putting in more than two million Australian dollars worth of work since its inception. Community consultation and democratic management structures are an integral component of the project. In 1994 the Halifax EcoCity Project was awarded as the inaugural World's Best EcoCity Prize, awarded by US based EcoCity Builders. You can check out our website at www.urbanecology.org.au Please help make the Halifax EcoCity Project a reality!! Sam Knottenbelt Urban Ecology Australia Inc. PS Please distribute this information through your email networks. SAMPLE LETTER: (note this letter has been drawn from other actual letters of support received by UEA) Dear Lord Mayor Jane Lomax-Smith and other elected members of Adelaide City Council, I am writing to express strong support for the selection of Urban Ecology Australia Consortium as the Developer of the Halifax Depot Site. Their visionary concept, the Halifax EcoCity Project, would serve as a model of ecological development not only in Australia, but around the world. By enlisting the participation of developers willing to commit millions to the project, Urban Ecology Australia Inc. combines visionary ideals with the practical skills required to actualise their vision, a rare combination and a special opportunity for Adelaide. I urge you to select the Urban Ecology Australia Consortium as the developer for this project. Wisdom in your deliberations, think of your children, and theirs. Name Organisation, Country send to: cc: Urban Ecology Australia Inc Centre for Urban Ecology 84 Halifax Street Adelaide, Tandanya Bioregion SA 5000 Australia Phone/fax: +61 -8 - 8232 4866 email: urbanec@metropolis.net.au Web: http://www.urbanecology.org.au ** Co-initiator of Adelaide's Halifax EcoCity Project ** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 15 13:00:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA07795 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 13:00:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12672; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:47:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:43:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12238 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:43:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12234 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:43:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust83.tnt5.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.15.83]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA15873; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:52:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <358551CE.3762@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:54:38 -0700 From: David Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pat Peterson CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Living Roofs...waterproofing References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3667 Pat Peterson wrote: > > Hey folks, > To put up a living roof, what are the recommended waterproofing substrates? > >From what I can gather, my layers should be, from top to bottom: > sod > soil > waterproof layer > insulation > decking > joists > > Am I missing something here? > For membrane, be sure it is good...patching a leak through layers of sod and dirt is very hard. EPDM and modified mono-ply bitumen (torch-on) are both good. A common problem is the soil creeping over the surface of the membrane, slipping down slope over time. One solution I have seen is to use old carpet, either pinned at the top of the roof (if a shed roof) or laid over the ridge (if a peaked roof), which roots can eventually grip and hold the mass stable. Another solution I have seen is to lay strips of foundation drain mat (which includes a drainage layer with a lamination of geotextile) over the membrane. seth melchert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 15 15:56:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13820 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22382; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:43:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:37:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21829 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:37:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21823 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:37:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa2-p56.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.56]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA16097 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:46:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358578AA.8B36AA7E@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 15:40:27 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Mole control Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3668 My daughter, Bree, has given me further clarification of the project parameters, only non-lethal methodologies will be considered. Thank you for your input. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 15 21:58:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA26107 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:58:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09600; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:45:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:39:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA09099 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:39:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09091 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.22] (blf22.acadia.net [205.217.217.22]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA22409 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:47:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:48:08 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Living Roofs...waterproofing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3669 >Pat Peterson wrote: >> >> Hey folks, >> To put up a living roof, what are the recommended waterproofing substrates? >> >From what I can gather, my layers should be, from top to bottom: >> sod >> soil >> waterproof layer >> insulation >> decking >> joists >> >> Am I missing something here? >> In addition to the other good comments, may I add that you're placing A LOT of weight on the roof structure? Please be sure to engineer the roof structure for the loads. What you might be missing - how about drainage? You've mentioned layers which act as a barrier to water - what about a system to drain water and conduct it elsewhere? Seems like both are necessary. Seth's suggestion of a geotextile drainage fabric (Miradrain by Mirafi Products is one example) seems very sound. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 15 21:58:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA26157 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:58:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09650; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:46:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:41:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA09255 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09245 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.22] (blf22.acadia.net [205.217.217.22]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA22570 for ; Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:49:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:50:08 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Thanks Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3670 Thanks to everyone who sent advice about foundation insulation coverings and partition materials. There's an abundance of wisdom in this group. It's great to know there are such great folks out there! Thanks again. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 16 08:03:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA10766 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 08:03:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA26519; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:50:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:45:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA26175 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:45:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA26171 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:45:42 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1NIAa26053 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:53:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:53:52 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Living under ground Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3671 I'll add my two experiences to the underground structure discussion. About twenty years ago I visitted a friends father who had such a home that had long since been abandoned as a home for use as a tool shed/barn for lack of daylighting, poor air quality and that funky musty ambiance that permeated everything including their minds when they lived in it. About twelve years ago, I was hired to build an atrium over the courtyard of a U shaped underground home. Despite sliding glass doors on three walls facing the courtyard, the owners still felt claustrophobic in the space and needed an inside space that felt light airy and unrestricting. This one also had a certain mustiness about it, despite some level of drainage and total encapsulation in EPDM rubber roofing. A good ventilation system may have been the answer here. The lesson for me is that really good design and incredible attention to detail is far important to living underground than in more conventional structures. Worrying about the life support and health of the plants on the roof should come way down the list after attention to the life style, health and mental health of the occupants under the roof. I'd also concur with the comments about drainage systems and adequate structural engineering. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 16 10:53:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17126 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03816; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:40:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:36:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03396 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:36:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03391 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust122.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.122]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id JAA18870; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:44:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3586858E.2F54@gte.net> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:47:42 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: Green building list Subject: Re: GBlist: ants References: <3583E016.7E42F309@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3672 In Florida, not only are the ants running wild this year, they bite -- not just the notorious fire ant -- native and invasive, but the little old black ones as well. I've currently got the itching to prove it. Cindy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 16 10:58:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17313 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:58:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04250; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:46:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:42:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03926 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03922 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:42:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust122.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.122]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id JAA12174 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:50:34 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <358686E7.15CB@gte.net> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:53:27 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Worst Wasters Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3673 I'd like to nominate "lunchables" as one of the worst wasters on the market. For those of you who don't have kids, they are rigid, clear plastic trays filled with aluminum/PE juice bags, and any variety of assorted other packaging, covered with a pull off clear plastic lid. My nine year old has a hard time understanding why many of her friends take them to school for lunch, but I won't buy them because of the high cost and waste. She takes her food primarily in reusable containers and a cooler bag. To make matters worse, her friends won't believe her when she tells them I'm too cheap and green to buy lunchables. What kind of message are these kids being taught!? Cindy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 16 12:16:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20540 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:16:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07679; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:04:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:00:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07286 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:59:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07265 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 11:59:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay1.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06356 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:08:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <358686E7.15CB@gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:05:42 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Worst Wasters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3674 980616 Bless her soul, she can't remember this type of thing now, but my dear mother saved paper bags to put my school lunches in, encouraged me to save each one for reuse as long as possible, used waxed paper for my sandwiches (which of course she made herself) because she felt the newfangled AL foil was profligate...I could go on & on. Depression era folks like her learned to save, can we call them green? What went wrong did so in between generations somehow. But my mother and her ilk avoided waste in more ways than some of us remember. My father's experience, more rural, somehow affected him differently. But that is a whole nother topic. Though a healthy critical eye coupled with reasonable skepticism is needed here as everywhere, my point is that sometimes we can learn a lot by looking back. No matter how "current" the issue. jh ps-have you looked at the preservatives list on those "lunchables"? Your stomach may not need embalming. Some preservatives are undoubtedly necessary but WHY do people eat 'em when they have a choice? The best/worst things about Cindy's note are her daughter/her daughter's friends: Childhood shows the man as morning shows the day. -Milton ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 16 13:13:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA23347 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:13:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11725; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:00:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:56:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA11112 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bsa-net.com ([199.218.113.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11103 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vwh5.concourse.com (vwh5.concourse.com [206.244.123.5] (may be forged)) by mail.bsa-net.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA28705 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 17:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by vwh5.concourse.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BD9928.7C2FF060@vwh5.concourse.com>; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:12:59 -0400 Message-ID: <01BD9928.7C2FF060@vwh5.concourse.com> From: "Lane J. Beougher" To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: GBList: Ants, ants, everywhere ants. Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:12:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA11104 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3675 It was a dark and stormy night (Friday, last). My wife of many years and I had just returned to our home from watching a movie through the driving rain at the local drive-in (yes, we still have those). I was reading some mail in the kitchen when I heard the flapping of insect wings. I noticed five of six large black winged ants struggling on the floor. Thinking they might be termites, I scooped them up and placed them in a glass jar for future study. I went back to processing my mail when I heard it again. I decided to investigate where they were coming from, when I noticed several hundred smaller black ants covering my front door and sidelight curtains. My wife had gone to bed, it was 2:30 am, and I basically freaked out. I didn't have a very "green" reaction. I just wanted the little buggers (pun intended) out of my house. I pulled down the curtains and sealed them in a trash can outside. Began pulling the door casing off to find out the source of the infiltration! . I considered demolishing the whole door frame assembly at that very moment. I have to claim temporary insanity (I'm feeling much better now). It's strange how little creepy crawlies can affect your psyche. So, in answer to the question about ants this year, yes we do have a few more this year in central Ohio (but now there are a few less). Lane J. Beougher LBeougher@BSA-net.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 16 14:05:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA25027 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 14:05:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15346; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:53:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:48:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14692 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:48:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14685 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:48:14 -0400 (EDT) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1CNNa04521 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:56:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <754d90a7.3586b1c3@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 13:56:18 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Course Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3676 Yestermorrow Design/Build school in Warren, Vermont is offering a two week class The Design/Build of Sustainable Structures from June 28 - July 10 - sorry for the short notice, but I am signed up and just joined this group - They also have scheduled a Green Development two day workshop and a two day Ecological Home Design workshop in August. (Courses in Straw Bale and Timber Frame too) The school can be reached at ymschool@aol.com or 1-888-496-5541 Over the years I have taken numerous courses there and have been well pleased with the depth of instruction and small student-teacher ratio. (The wonderful setting in the Mad River Valley and Green Mountains is pretty nice too) Linda Lloyd GrenSheltr@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 16 21:19:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA16694 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:19:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06276; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:07:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:03:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05958 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:03:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05954 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:03:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id EHNa004520; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:11:06 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <4b6928ca.358717ab@aol.com> Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:11:06 EDT To: earthvision@getf.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, CHECNET-FORUM@checnet.org, arilist@erols.com Cc: cmcs@cloudnet.com (Thomas J. Danzl), cehgreen@igc.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: EHC's TOXIC TURNAROUND Report Info. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3677 (My apologies for the cross-posts.) I haven't seen the information contained in EHC's TOXIC TURNAROUND Report, yet - I just ordered my copy today. I'm anxious to see the new VOC toxicity data it contains. For those who wish to order themselves a copy - I've included ordering information at the end of this message. Regards, Cathy Flanders Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://members.tripod.com/~rkfabf/index.html IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq (the following is an excerpt from RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY #602) Remarkably, even the federal EPA [U.S. Environmental Protection Agency] has never developed an official prioritized list that tells people which toxic materials they might want to eliminate first. So EHC (The Environmental Health Coalition ) has developed a list of its own, based on toxicity to humans and damage to the environment. EHC says the top pollution prevention targets are these: ** Volatile organic compounds (which includes such things as benzene, toluene, acetaldehyde, xylenes, phenol, formaldehyde, acrolein, acetic acid, butyric acid, acetone, methyl ethyl ketone, ethyl acetate, butyl acetate, methyl alcohol, ethyl alcohol, isopropyl alcohol, butyl alcohol, and other hydrocarbons). ** Toxic pesticides, of which there are many. ** Other chlorinated or brominated compounds (for example, perchloroethylene, tetrachloroethylene, para-dichlorobenzene, 1,1,1-trichloroethane, chlorofluorocarbons [CFCs], etc.). ** Toxic gases, such as chlorine. ** Toxic heavy metals, such as lead, mercury and cadmium. Since 1980, EHC has come a long way, as anyone can see who reads their new report, TOXIC TURNAROUND.[1] TOXIC TURNAROUND is a step-by-step guide for local government officials (municipal or county), showing them how to reduce their agency's reliance on toxic materials --toxic solvents, cleaning preparations, paints, pesticides, etc. ("information for one-time member use under the Federal Library Act.") Contact Info: Joy Williams, Sonya Holmquist and Diane Takvorian, TOXIC TURNAROUND (San Diego, California: Environmental Health Coalition, 1998). Available for $28 from EHC, 1717 Kettner Boulevard, Suite 100, San Diego, CA 92101; telephone (619) 235-0281; fax: (619) 232-3670; E-mail: ehcoalition@igc.apc.org; or www.environmentalhealth.org. About EHC Environmental Health Coalition (EHC) is a grassroots, non-profit environmental justice organization, based in San Diego that is dedicated to the prevention and cleanup of toxic pollution threatening our health, our communities and our environment. We monitor government and industry actions that cause pollution, educate communities about toxics use reduction and empower the community to join our cause. WebSite: EHC Home Page (www.environmentalhealth.org) ============================================================ (this was an excerpt from RACHEL'S ENVIRONMENT & HEALTH WEEKLY #602 ) . . ---June 11, 1998--- . . HEADLINES: . . TOXIC TURNAROUND . . ========== . . Environmental Research Foundation . . P.O. Box 5036, Annapolis, MD 21403 . . Fax (410) 263-8944; Internet: erf@rachel.org . . ========== . . Back issues available by E-mail; to get instructions, send . . E-mail to INFO@rachel.org with the single word HELP . . in the message; back issues also available via ftp from . . ftp.std.com/periodicals/rachel and from gopher.std.com . . and from http://www.monitor.net/rachel/ . . Subscriptions are free. To subscribe, E-mail the words . . SUBSCRIBE RACHEL-WEEKLY YOUR NAME to: listserv@rachel.org. . ============================================================= ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 16 22:05:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA17850 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 22:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08307; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:52:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:47:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07849 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:47:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07841 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:47:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.9] (blf9.acadia.net [205.217.217.9]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA10044 for ; Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:56:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:56:20 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Worst Wasters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3678 Why would anyone tolerate toxic waste in order to eat airline food? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 08:23:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA03332 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:23:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23906; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:11:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:05:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA23611 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:05:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23607 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:05:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1FBSa05134 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:13:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:13:32 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: GBList: Ants, ants, everywhere ants. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3679 I can also report biting black ants in Virginia. However, I was just in Texas visiting my sister who said she's used boric acid for years and the box said it was non-toxic, natural, etc. In addition, an organic gardening outlet sells it as only affecting ants. Does anyone have any additional information about boric acid? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 08:54:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA04275 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:54:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25159; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:41:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:35:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24630 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:35:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24624 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:35:32 -0400 (EDT) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 25510 invoked by uid 0); 17 Jun 1998 12:45:48 -0000 Received: from ppp-19.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.213?) (198.175.11.213) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 17 Jun 1998 12:45:48 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:51:42 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: GBList: Ants, ants, everywhere ants Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3680 Yup, seems like more ants than usual during our warm Spring here in Northern New York. I've had the most success with a borate ant poison called "Ant Terro". I've always wondered whether the name is an intentional pun combining "earthy natural" and "terror" for the ants, or whether the marketing people just couldn't spell. It's borate in a sugary liquid base that you set out on little cards. If you keep them well supplied, most nests in my house seem to subside in population within about two weeks, both small black ants and carpenter ants. Perhaps a greener solution is to read one of the books on ants by Edward O. Wilson, Harvard biologist and perhaps the worlds foremost expert on ants. They're filled with pictures and amazing tales of the habits and life stories of ants. Instead of abhoring the little critters you start marvelling at them. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 09:01:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04473 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:01:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25712; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:48:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:43:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA25281 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coyote.accessnv.com (jap2be@coyote.accessnv.com [207.168.90.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA25277 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:42:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (jap2be@localhost) by coyote.accessnv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA22889; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:41:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:41:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Angel Cohen Reply-To: Angel Cohen To: Pbsustain@aol.com cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: GBList: Ants, ants, everywhere ants. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3681 Hi! Here is a list of alternative suggestions that people have recommended for ants, etc. I hope this helps and answers your question. ********** I use a combo of laundry soap , hot sauce and water as my natural pesticide, works on most all pests and helps me a whole lot. ***** Boric acid is a slow stomach posion. It is not a VOC and this is why is one of the least toxic. However, you must use care, I use boric acid for carpenter ants. I use a small glass canning jars. Mix flour, boric acid and bacon grease, then place the mixture in the jar and make several hole in the metal jar lid. The ants can get in, but not animals or children. I place them away from the house so that the ants will not want to come into the house. It works. Boric acid is slow, takes about three weeks to wipe out the pest. I also use a boric acid paste made by Stapletons' (800) 237-5705. Comes in 8 oz tubes. I insert into straws (you may not want to do this if you have small children), and then cut the straw in half and place around fire ants mounds. It will dry out, so every few days I rub the straw to release fine particles of boric acid. I use care not to contaminate the ground. I do not want any pesticide in the ground. Boric acid can also be used in between the wall when building a new home before the drywall goes up. This is what I do, I suggest you request a MSDS on the product and follow the manufacturers recommendations. You should read about any pesticide that you may want to use. Do not follow my suggestions or anyone else until you understand the product and possible harmful effects. Boric acid is the only pesticide that I use. ********** There is a Chinese ant chalk which is non toxic. It is I believe made from boric acid. It comes in sticks like side walk chalk and you draw a circle around whatever you want to keep them away from. Around the top of the trash can a circle and they are gone. It is available in those small Chinese 99cent only stores. It is also only about 30c a stick and it lasts quite a while. *************** "The Organic Gardener's Handbook of Natural Insect and Disease Control"., by Barbara W. Ellis and fern Marshall Bradley, 1992, Rodale Press, ISBN 0-87596-124-X. Good book around 700 pages. ********** Take care, Angel On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 Pbsustain@aol.com wrote: > I can also report biting black ants in Virginia. However, I was just in Texas > visiting my sister who said she's used boric acid for years and the box said > it was non-toxic, natural, etc. In addition, an organic gardening outlet sells > it as only affecting ants. Does anyone have any additional information about > boric acid? > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 09:55:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06170 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:55:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28634; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:42:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:37:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28184 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:37:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28177 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:37:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA10301; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 06:43:07 -0700 Message-ID: <3587C7CE.DEA8A97C@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 06:42:39 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Ants, ants, everywhere ants Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------A497C7A5B246E795D1B4BEE5" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3682 --------------A497C7A5B246E795D1B4BEE5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems that on a regular basis we have some disucssion about how to wipe out some portion of wildlife. Swarming ants are like a herd of buffalo or a flock of geese, or rush hour in some metropolis, but then they used to shoot the buffalo off the back of passenger trains for fun and every now and then some deranged soul will open fire on commuters. A green home should have room for more than a little wildlife or what good is it. John Salmen (the quote below is from an april 97 thread on bugs) > My son keeps asking me why we don't smoosh bugs (an arbitrary rule that > I made) he says everybody else smooshes bugs. I don't have an honest > reason for him because I grew up smooshing bugs but I thought at some > point we have to form a decent relationship with other living things by > not smooshing them and maybe we might learn something. In this case, as > Terry pointed out earlier, the bugs are telling us something. There is a > nice moist area in the walls around that pantry. Cure the moisture > problem and when they grow wings they will probably not return. > We have a lot of carpenter ants in the area and I have looked at the > interior of walls from a number of houses built in the 30's that have > had major infestations at some point in their history. The ants only > create paths through the wood and nesting areas adjacent. I have not > seen any damage that I would consider structural as a direct result from > insect activity. The damage that is structural is more a result of decay > from fungal activity as a result from continuous moisture in the area. > Don't smoosh the messenger. Another sad result is workers having to be > protected from pesticide residue still contained in wall sections of > these old houses, not to mention what happens to the residual materials > taken out of these places, not to mention previous occupant health, soil > conditions, and the health of the ants. > --------------A497C7A5B246E795D1B4BEE5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems that on a regular basis we have some disucssion about how to wipe out some portion of wildlife. Swarming ants are like a herd of buffalo or a flock of geese, or rush hour in some metropolis, but then they used to shoot the buffalo off the back of passenger trains for fun and every now and then some deranged soul will open fire on commuters. A green home should have room for more than a little wildlife or what good is it.

John Salmen

(the quote below is from an april 97 thread on bugs)
 

My son keeps asking me why we don't smoosh bugs (an arbitrary rule that
I made) he says everybody else smooshes bugs. I don't have an honest
reason for him because I grew up smooshing bugs but I thought at some
point we have to form a decent relationship with other living things by
not smooshing them and maybe we might learn something. In this case, as
Terry pointed out earlier, the bugs are telling us something. There is a
nice moist area in the walls around that pantry. Cure the moisture
problem and when they grow wings they will probably not return. 
We have a lot of carpenter ants in the area and I have looked at the
interior of walls from a number of houses built in the 30's that have
had major infestations at some point in their history. The ants only
create paths through the wood and nesting areas adjacent. I have not
seen any damage that I would consider structural as a direct result from
insect activity. The damage that is structural is more a result of decay
from fungal activity as a result from continuous moisture in the area.
Don't smoosh the messenger. Another sad result is workers having to be
protected from pesticide residue still contained in wall sections of
these old houses, not to mention what happens to the residual materials
taken out of these places, not to mention previous occupant health, soil
conditions, and the health of the ants.
  --------------A497C7A5B246E795D1B4BEE5-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 10:00:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06394 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:00:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29121; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:48:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:42:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28676 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:42:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28667 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:42:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.201.60] (usr2a60.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.60]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA29484 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:51:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: whales@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:51:50 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Crockett Subject: Re: GBlist: GBList: Ants, ants, everywhere ants Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3683 When E.O. Wilson was recently asked what one should do about ants in the house, he answered, "Try putting a pile of food on the floor, and spend the next several hours watching in fascination." John Crockett >Perhaps a greener solution is to read one of the books on ants by Edward O. >Wilson, Harvard biologist and perhaps the worlds foremost expert on ants. >They're filled with pictures and amazing tales of the habits and life >stories of ants. Instead of abhoring the little critters you start >marvelling at them. > >Chris Neurath > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 10:34:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07841 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:34:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00954; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:21:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:16:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00358 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:16:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00354 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:16:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.93]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 1971300 ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:44:16 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980617101923.00690b14@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:19:23 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: Ants In-Reply-To: <199806170600.CAA15118@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3684 Seems to be a few more than usual here in southcentral Pennsylvania. Whenever we have an outbreak I use a borax/sugar water solution. They lap it up, bring it back to the nest and feed it to the other ants. Takes a little while, sometimes a day or two. But it works very effectively. Only works on sugar-eating ants. We had an outbreak on the window sill of my daughter's bedroom on Monday, I dropped the sollution all over the sill and in seconds they were aligned in circles around the drops. By Tuesday I saw a few, by today there were none. A commercially prepared solution is available through the Garden's Alive catalog (812)537-8650. A $5, bottle lasts me two to three years. I have also seen published recipies for the solution but I don't recall where (maybe a Debra Lynn-Dadd book). A good source of information used to be (haven't contacted them in several years) the Bio-Integral Resource Center, PO Box 7414, Berkley, CA 94707, 415-524-2567. They have a whole series of publications on least-toxic pest management, including a book solely on ants. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 10:36:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07928 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:36:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01113; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:23:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:18:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00538 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:18:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00533 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:18:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA1-d9.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.234]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA27546 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:27:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3587D0CC.6ACAEB84@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:21:00 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Deletable Re: GBlist: Ants, ants, everywhere ants References: <3587C7CE.DEA8A97C@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3685 John Salmen wrote: > A green home should have room for more than a little > wildlife or what good is it. > As long as I'm paying the mortgage, I want to have some say in who I wish to share my space with. I'm quite content to revel in the mystery that is ant out on the back lawn or at the compost pile. John Crockett wrote: When E.O. Wilson was recently asked what one should do about ants in the house, he answered, "Try putting a pile of food on the floor, and spend the next several hours watching in fascination." I try to make my food pile/ant farms at the compost pile, they are just as fascinating there as in my kitchen. John, you forgot to attribute the following quote. > > My son keeps asking me why we don't smoosh bugs (an arbitrary rule that > > I made) he says everybody else smooshes bugs. I don't have an honest > > reason for him because I grew up smooshing bugs but I thought at some > > point we have to form a decent relationship with other living things by > > not smooshing them and maybe we might learn something. My daughter, Bree, doesn't believe in smooshing either nor will she likely condone slow stomach poisons, i.e. boric acid. She does however leave piles of food (as recommended by E.O.) for the ants with considerable regularity, I'm afraid she inherited my housekeeping gene. She will no doubt, not appreciate my use of her as a subject in my posts, one can only hope she won't retaliate in kind elsewhere. My apologies to Hal, et al, I have wandered a bit far afield here, I forget myself at times. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 10:49:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08314 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:49:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02026; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:36:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:31:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01440 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:30:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01435 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA11237; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 07:36:51 -0700 Message-ID: <3587D464.30CFFCCA@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 07:36:21 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: Deletable Re: GBlist: Ants, ants, everywhere ants References: <3587C7CE.DEA8A97C@cow-net.com> <3587D0CC.6ACAEB84@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3686 Hi Chuck Your only paying the bank mortgage the ants will at some future point have to clean up after you. Reminds me of when I was a teenager I rented a damp old farmhouse in England that in the winter was just overrun with mice. I complained to a neighbour and he said that if I just stopped trying to make my place so damm warm and cosy I wouldn't have so many unwelcome guests. John Chuck Hinckley wrote: > > > As long as I'm paying the mortgage, I want to have some say in who I > wish to share my space with. I'm quite content to revel in the mystery > that is ant out on the back lawn or at the compost pile. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 10:49:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08324 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:49:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02050; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:36:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:31:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01481 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:31:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01459 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:31:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA1-d9.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.234]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA02513 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3587D3C8.F8BE65DB@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:33:44 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Fuel cells in the 'burbs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3687 On a more "appropriate" note, in today's NYTIMES (groan) an article on a suburban house powered with a fuel cell. " For the first time, an energy technology called a fuel cell will supply all the power to a suburban house, another sign that fuel cells are on the verge of acceptance as an economical alternative to traditional energy sources. The idea of fuel cells -- which convert liquid fuel into electricity through a chemical reaction rather than combustion -- has been around for more than 100 years. But until recently, fuel cells were so expensive that it was practical only for NASA's specialized use on space missions. But the cells being tested now are powerful, flexible and reliable enough to work as an affordable earth-bound energy source. On Wednesday, a team of engineers will cut off the electricity the local utility company provides to a brick ranch-style house in Latham, N.Y., and switch on a back-porch component that looks more like a home central air-conditioning unit than the small chemical plant it really is." http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/energy-technology.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 11:11:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09562 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03203; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:58:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:53:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02735 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:52:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02725 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:52:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA1-d9.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.234]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA10358; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:01:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3587D8D3.D8559592@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:55:15 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen CC: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: Deletable Re: GBlist: Ants, ants, everywhere ants References: <3587C7CE.DEA8A97C@cow-net.com> <3587D0CC.6ACAEB84@dreamscape.com> <3587D464.30CFFCCA@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3688 John Salmen wrote: > > Hi Chuck > > Your only paying the bank mortgage the ants will at some future point have to > clean up after you. They can wait! I have no doubt that ants will out last humans by millenniums. I don't mean to be priggish but I just don't consider kitchen cleanup by *ant* as an agreeable "green" alternative. Although it does have that living machine mystique going for it. Maybe I need to rethink this issue. What do you think about "Ant in a Can", an alternative to scouring powder, sort of a bio-remediation for the kitchen thing. This could be a whole new field of research, write a few grant proposals, get a little funding, (hell E.O. probably makes a nice living with this kind of thing), set up a test facility in Bree's kitchen. Whatta you think? Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 12:01:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA11813 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:01:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06458; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:49:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:45:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05973 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:44:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (root@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.253.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05965 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:44:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from leo.davisenergy.com (usr5-d13.cwnet.com [205.162.109.13]) by wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.8.5/DCN8.8.1) with SMTP id IAA12041 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 08:53:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199806171553.IAA12041@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us> X-Sender: lirainer@dcn.davis.ca.us X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Greenbuilding From: Leo Rainer Subject: GBlist: Ants, the poor persons blower door Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3689 In a vain attempt to bring this ant thread back towards buildings I offer the following: Whenever I have an ant run in the house I trace it back to where they are getting in and caulk up the hole. I like to think that eventually they will help me air-seal my house, one leak at a time. This of course also points to another non-energy benefit of tight construction - less ants. ...leo ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Leo Rainer Email: lirainer@davisenergy.com Davis Energy Group Phone: 530.753.1100 123 C Street Fax: 530.753.4125 Davis, CA 95616 Web: http://www.webcom.com/deg/ ============================================================================ Energy Analysis * Mechanical Design * Product Engineering ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 12:04:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA12108 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06909; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:51:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:47:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA06204 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06195 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:47:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Strawnet@aol.com Received: from Strawnet@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1OKZa20982 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:55:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:55:20 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Pardon this personal use of the listserve, please Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3690 Sorry to do this, but I tried the who greenbuilding approach first and that function is off on this list. I am traveling and don't have contact info for Terry Brennan and just wanted to get in touch with him to see if we might stop and see him on the way to ASHRAE in Toronto. So Terry, could you e-mail your phone number to me at strawnet.aol.com please? Also, while I'm here, just a quick reminder for anyone who will be in New York City tomorrow evening, that I'm giving a slideshow and talk on Sustainability and Building Codes at the Eco-Smart Building Center at 6:30 pm, 40 Wall Street, 23rd floor. No admission charge though contributions in support of the Development Center for Appropriate Technology and our building codes work are always gratefully accepted. David Eisenberg Co-Director DCAT PO Box 27513 Tucson, AZ 85726-7513 dcat@azstarnet.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 12:26:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA12919 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08575; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:13:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:09:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08168 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08164 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:08:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id JAA19563 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:17:37 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 17 Jun 1998 09:10:38 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: ANTS IN THE PANS To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA08165 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3691 Chuck, I think you're on to something! "LET NATURE DO YOUR CLEANING!" For small jobs: "Ant Patrol: these lil darlins will take care of those cola spills and donut crumbs! For larger jobs, like cleaning up after the kids' food fights, try The Mice Squad!" Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 12:56:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13836 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10220; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:40:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09815 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09809 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa4-p18.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.146]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA16230 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:48:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3587F1F5.17B7F55B@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:42:29 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Fuel cell cos. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3692 Here are the urls for the two fuel cell producers mentioned in the NYTIMES article. http://www.hpower.com/ http://www.plugpower.com/navframe.html And one for Detroit Edison about the Latham project: http://www.detroitedison.com/aboutus/news/pplug97.html If you are interested in this subject, a little surfing through these sights could be quite informative. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 14:08:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16148 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13735; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:55:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:49:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA13257 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:49:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13253 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:49:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa4-p18.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.146]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA09210 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:58:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3588025A.456C754A@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:52:26 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: further fuel cell research Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3693 I founfd this yesterday in Wired News, but not thinking of this group as particularly "wired", I didn't post it. It does relate nicely to the other links on fuel cells, so here it is: http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/13018.html The manufacturers press release url is: http://www.ise.fhg.de/Press_Info/PI298.html Who was the fuel cell developer that posted awhile back? If he's listening, got any comments? Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 17:08:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA22067 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22592; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:51:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22218 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:51:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.rapidramp.net (mail.incredibyte.net [207.99.72.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22202 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:51:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806172051.QAA22202@solstice.crest.org> Received: from default [209.123.4.14] by mail.rapidramp.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.02) id A1B6FF670234; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:14:30 EST Reply-To: From: "Office of Sustainable Design & Construction" To: Subject: GBlist: ozonated laundry systems Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:59:34 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3694 I am doing some research on ozonated laundry systems, a system that uses activated oxygen (ozone) to clean clothes in cool water, cutting energy to heat water and use of chemicals significantly. Has anyone had experience with these systems/ or can recommend a good manufacturer I can talk to? I am in New YorK City. Thanks, Jennifer NYC Dept of Design & Constrution ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 17:43:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA23182 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:43:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA24254; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:26:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23915 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:26:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ci.portland.or.us (pdxnet.ci.portland.or.us [207.109.34.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23910 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:26:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linux1.bis.city (root@linux1.bis.city [10.80.1.15]) by ci.portland.or.us (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id OAA13710 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:34:45 -0700 Received: from issd1.bis.city (issd1.bis.city [10.80.1.16]) by linux1.bis.city (8.7.3/8.7.1) with SMTP id OAA32299 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:33:26 -0700 Received: from Portland-Message_Server by issd1.bis.city with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:35:52 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:40:45 -0700 From: Curt Nichols To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: ozonated laundry systems -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3695 Jennifer__ While it's not an ozonated system, there's another efficient laundry option you may want to consider. The Red Lion Inns (now part of DoubleTree) central laundry facility in Portland, OR installed a three-phase micro-filtration and water recycling system a couple years ago. At that time it was only the second industrial laundry facility to use submicron filtration. Adding that to a 20 year old laundry facility cut their energy, water, and wastewater costs by over half. Those savings equal about $40,000 a year on an investment of $160,000. That means the changes will pay for themselves in about 4 years ... not even counting the estimate that this will extend their boiler life by 50%. They worked with the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory (PNNL) to monitor this system. More data on this system -- and possible. other applications since -- should be available from PNNL or USDOE. Red Lion won a BEST Business Award in '96 for this innovative system. And, some additional details are available at our web site: . As Joe Bob Briggs would say, "Check it out!" Curt Curt Nichols Portland Energy Office ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 19:12:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA26239 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA27508; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:59:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:55:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27264 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA27260 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:55:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA103202; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:02:27 -0600 Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:02:26 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Chuck Hinckley Cc: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: forget about Fuel cells in the 'burbs In-Reply-To: <3587D3C8.F8BE65DB@dreamscape.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3696 Fuels cells for residential projects are "non starters". I have had 3 meetings over 6 years to see developments in this field and for those of you who have ever seen the inside of one, the "risk of malfunction" so so high, they cannot be justified. Has this NY house first considered step one: energy conservation? What are their energy consumption records? If they have not been reduced significantly, this may be just another publicity stunt? We advise corporate clients the technology is not worth even investigation until it is far far simpler, and the fuel source is renewable (most use NG now). Nothing to get excited about at this time. If I am missing a creative, innovative and progressive firm that has appropriate technology, please let me know. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### _____________________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Chuck Hinckley wrote: > > On a more "appropriate" note, in today's NYTIMES (groan) an article on a > suburban house powered with a fuel cell. > > " For the first time, an energy technology called a fuel cell will > supply all > the power to a suburban house, another sign that fuel > cells are on the verge of acceptance > as an economical alternative to traditional energy sources. > > The idea of fuel cells -- which convert liquid fuel into > electricity through a chemical reaction rather > than combustion -- has been around for more than 100 years. > But until recently, fuel cells were so > expensive that it was practical only for NASA's specialized > use on space missions. But the cells > being tested now are powerful, flexible and reliable enough to > work as an affordable earth-bound > energy source. > > On Wednesday, a team of engineers will cut off the electricity > the local utility company provides to a > brick ranch-style house in Latham, N.Y., and switch on a > back-porch component that looks more > like a home central air-conditioning unit than the small > chemical plant it really is." > > http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/energy-technology.html > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 17 22:09:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA01620 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:09:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA04943; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:56:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:52:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA04653 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:51:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA04649 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 21:51:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.20] (blf20.acadia.net [205.217.217.20]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA23067 for ; Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:00:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 22:00:38 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Re: Worst Wasters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3697 >Please provide some facts for your toxic accusation. This is not a media for >false information or emotional outbursts. > >Robert Walz (Walzag1@aol.com) Dear Robert, I'm afraid that my "toxic" accusation is neither false nor emotional. I agree that it is wrong to put false information out over the Internet. Emotional outbursts are often in the eye of the beholder. For example, it seems to me that you are engaged in one yourself. If you are open to documentation about the toxicity of some of the plastics and preservatives used in the "food product" under discussion, consult back issues of "Rachels Environment and Health Weekly", and the book "Our Stolen Future" by Theo Colburn et. al. You could also go to the Environmental Defense Fund's website, called "Scorecard" - look up any factory in the U.S. which manufactures plastics and you will learn what toxic wastes are generated by that factory. The same information is contained in the EPA's "Toxic Release Inventory", but the EDF has put it in a more accessible form. Please don't overlook that the chemical feedstocks which form the basic raw material for the plastics factories were themselves synthesized from petroleum, with toxic releases an inevitable, sad, consequence. Plastics can be of wonderful benefit to our lives, despite the pollution associated with their creation. It seems senseless to me when plastics are used to make cheap goods of inferior quality. The taste and nutritional quality of the "food product" under discussion is, in my opinion, lousy. Hence my comment, "Why would anyone tolerate toxic waste in order to eat airline food?" If you disagree, please follow you own admonition and document your reasons why. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 18 02:48:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA09325 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:48:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA11791; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:35:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:31:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA11518 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:31:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA11514 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:31:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay1.mnsinc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA16349 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:39:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 02:37:51 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: GBList: Ants, ants, everywhere ants. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3698 980618 Boric acid is effective against roaches as it removes some vital part of their covering, causing dehydration/death. Not sure if the antaction is similar or ant-i-thetical. BTW Terro was infinitely more effective when it was mostly Na Arsenate. Borate is tame by comparison, but undoubtedly much greener. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 18 11:52:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24398 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:52:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26633; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:39:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:34:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA26172 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:34:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ci.portland.or.us (pdxnet.ci.portland.or.us [207.109.34.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26167 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:34:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linux1.bis.city (root@linux1.bis.city [10.80.1.15]) by ci.portland.or.us (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA93774 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:42:44 -0700 Received: from issd1.bis.city (issd1.bis.city [10.80.1.16]) by linux1.bis.city (8.7.3/8.7.1) with SMTP id IAA04471 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:41:24 -0700 Received: from Portland-Message_Server by issd1.bis.city with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:43:54 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:48:55 -0700 From: Curt Nichols To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: forget about Fuel cells in the 'burbs -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3699 Jorge__ What's this about fuel cell 'risk of malfunction'? For all the years that they've been used in space travel, I think there's been one malfunction. Fuel cells don't have any moving parts. So, given access to fuel (and air) they are supposed to work for years without any maintenance. In fact, a fuel cell that will be going into Portland's main wastewater treatment plant is considered 'risk free' enough to also serve as the emergency back-up power supply for the plant's control center. I think there's another issue to be discussed. The fuel cells electricity-creating chemical process also creates heat. Is that waste heat being used in this residential application? I know that's nearly always done on industrial or commercial fuel cell applications. But, what about these smaller home-sized fuel cells ... are they "cogenerating" also? Curt Curt Nichols Portland Energy Office ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 18 12:57:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26827 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:57:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29773; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:40:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA29408 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:40:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29399 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:40:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DF2RT6P8; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:39:05 EDT To: wordsandmusic@compuserve.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:43:40 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Re: GB Bamboo flooring Message-ID: <19980618.124429.6574.5.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199806071122_MC2-3F6D-ED2@compuserve.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-4,7-8,11-12,15-17,23-30 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3700 George, Sorry to be so long in answering you message but have been in Alaska on vacation. I am not familiar with the brand you mentioned. It is not one of the ones I received mailings on. As you suspect, I chose Plyboo because it is one of the few available here. We install by gluing the planks together, leaving a gap around the perimeter and finishing with a shoe mold. Nail down is not an option here as all buildings are poured slab-on-grade. I am not familiar with the multi-ply type. Plyboo is a solid plank ( and I do mean solid!). I chose this over the others available because of the elegance of the finish. Theirs was the smoothest and most consistant. Also, my distributor is an ardent environmentalist who deals in other non-endangered tropical hardwoods and is extremely knowledgeable and very helpful with technical support. Too often I have found people rushing to sell without being able to support the product with expertise or technical knowledge. I have come to learn that the dealer is as important as the product. Wish I could be of more help. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 18 13:03:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27029 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:03:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00217; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:50:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:47:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA29887 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:46:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pca-ex01.mpca (pca-ex01.pca.state.mn.us [156.98.210.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29882 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:46:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by pca-ex01.pca.state.mn.us with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:58:07 -0500 Message-ID: <6CF0581EC9C1D111B48600805FBEB8789EA472@pca-ex01.pca.state.mn.us> From: "Barnes-Driscoll, Erin" To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Need hard data on costs/benefits of G.B. Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:58:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3701 Hi Everyone. I am a new subscriber...a State of Minnesota employee, to be exact. I'm looking for "hard data" comparing the costs, quality, time-considerations and other concrete data associated with building green (recycled content and low toxicity materials, deconstruction, green building practices, etc.) with those of traditional construction and demolition methods. Especially helpful would be federal, state or local government data and experience in this area. My office is beginning to work with the "powers that be" in Minnesota state government to incorporate sustainable building practices into state construction projects. Major concerns (of those we're trying to persuade) have to do with $$$ involved, construction/demolition time-constraints, "trade-offs" (such as impact of recycled content materials on indoor air quality) and quality of materials... Erin Barnes-Driscoll Minnesota Office of Environmental Assistance 520 Lafayette Road North St. Paul, MN 55155-4100 612/215-0211 800/657-3843 FAX - 612/215-0246 erin.driscoll@moea.state.mn.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 18 13:26:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27850 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:26:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01465; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:13:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:09:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA01185 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01181 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:09:39 -0400 (EDT) From: StudioArc@aol.com Received: from StudioArc@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1KWYa05237 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:17:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <652ee72a.35894bbc@aol.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:17:47 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Ants as a metaphor Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3702 Maybe I'm weird but the discussion of ants has been the most interesting topic I have yet seen in here. These little creatures have elicited such a wide response - some want to kill them, others try to live with them. I see an apt metaphor for the whole BIG PICTURE of how we humans react to environmental survival. We go on and on about all these great technological improvements and fixes and still we aren't sustainable (am I the only one who thinks "sustainable" has been so over-used and mis-used that it is almost worthless?). Putting solar panels and earth-friendly materials on more and more suburban sprawl houses that rapaciously eat up farm land and wild land won't get us where we MUST go to survive. To survive - to truly become sustainable - our species must look at its fundamental relationship with the planet. Do we have the right to consume any and all resources on this planet at the expense of any other species? Just because we can doesn't necessarily mean that we should. Do the other species that share this planet with us have a fundamental right to survival? Not everyone will agree with your answers to these two questions. Just replacing bad systems and technologies with less bad ones - which is what I think we are doing now - wont cut it. We have the technology - or can get it - but we must first change our attitude. If we can change our attitude about how we belong on this planet then we will find the solutions to the BIG PICTURE. Looking for an ant poison that is environmentally friendly is the wrong attitude and misses the BIG PICTURE. When the rancher says wolves are fine if you keep them in Yellow Stone, but if they come on my property I will kill them - it sounds a lot like the guy who says ants are fine out in the yard, but if they come in my house, I will kill them. If you understand the incredible inter-connectedness of life then you know the wolf must survive - and the ant - and all the others. Whether you believe in an inherent right to survival or just the fact that our survival depends on the whole web of life - either way, you know we MUST live together. If we can get the majority of our species to accept this - then many seemingly intractable global problems would go away simply by ceasing to make the wrong value judgements. Wolves are like ants, and ants are like humans and humans are like wolves - we are all in this together, and though they may survive without us, we wont survive without them. With the right attitude you wont be thinking about how to destroy those elements of the natural infrastructure that annoy you, no matter how small they may seam. Instead you will accept them, avoid them, or keep them out. Mark Wynnemer Studio Architects ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 18 14:04:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA29200 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:04:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03387; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:47:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03018 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:47:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.state.vt.us (mail.state.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03007 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:47:13 -0400 (EDT) From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Received: from vdhvax ([159.105.135.2]) by mail.state.vt.us (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-44988U13000L13000S0) with SMTP id AAA70 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:55:56 -0400 Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:34:42 -1233 Message-Id: <98061813344222@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Need hard data on costs/benefits of G.B. - Reply X-VMS-To: SMTP%"greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3703 Since you're from MN, I think a great place to start would be with Ken Meyer of Minneapolis Public Schools. He's been heavily involved in the building of a rather innovative school (mostly in terms of energy and IAQ) in Minneapolis, the Whittier School. He has information on incremental cost (and savings!) of the "green" practices/materials used. The completed school is undergoing continued monitoring, and more info on benefits should be forthcoming. I don't have Ken's number handy, but he can be reached at: Ken Meyer Manager, Environmental Health & Safety Minneapolis Public Schools 807 Northeast Broadway 807 Northeast Broadway You might also be able to get some info from the H.L. Turner Group, in Concord, NH (603) 228-1122. Ask about their Boscawen, NH school project. EPA's Green Lights and Energy Star programs can also provide some C/B info. Try starting with: Green Lights Program Tel: (202) 564-9190 Toll Free: (888) STAR-YES I'm sure you'll soon be swamped with more info. I hope this helps. Mike mrogers@vdh.state.vt.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 18 14:38:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00487 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05561; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:25:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:22:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05163 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:21:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05159 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:21:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA45470; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:28:59 -0600 Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:28:59 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Curt Nichols Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: forget about Fuel cells in the 'burbs -Reply In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3704 Curt: I have personbally inspected residential fuel cells (ie. 10 kW combined) and there are so many pipes, connections and other balance of system components that a standard heating/cooling system in a normal home has just a fraction of this complexity. Until they make appropriate technology with fewer parts, using non-renewable fuel sources, at cost-effective prices, I will forget the technology. If I have missed any creative company please inform me. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________________ I On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Curt Nichols wrote: > > Jorge__ > > What's this about fuel cell 'risk of malfunction'? For all the years > that they've been used in space travel, I think there's been one > malfunction. Fuel cells don't have any moving parts. So, given > access to fuel (and air) they are supposed to work for years without > any maintenance. > > In fact, a fuel cell that will be going into Portland's main > wastewater treatment plant is considered 'risk free' enough to also > serve as the emergency back-up power supply for the plant's control > center. > > I think there's another issue to be discussed. The fuel cells > electricity-creating chemical process also creates heat. Is that > waste heat being used in this residential application? I know that's > nearly always done on industrial or commercial fuel cell applications. > But, what about these smaller home-sized fuel cells ... are they > "cogenerating" also? > > Curt > > Curt Nichols > Portland Energy Office > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 18 14:41:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00570 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05760; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:28:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:24:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05336 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:24:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05328 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:24:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.201.87] (usr2a78.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.78]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA19236; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:32:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980618.124429.6574.5.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199806071122_MC2-3F6D-ED2@compuserve.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:33:23 -0400 To: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: GB Bamboo flooring Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3705 Hi Beverly, I'm confused about your description of the product. Since bamboo is hollow, the flooring cannot be solid but must be laminated from strips that are sliced from the skin. These strips are typically about 1/4" thick and 1" wide. Some manufacturers laminate them flat in two or three layers, others do it on edge. You can see both types, and a hybrid of the two, in this photo: http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Product_Reviews/Bamboo_samples.jpg Also, as we noted in our Oct 1997 article, two companies are using the Plyboo name: Smith & Fong of San Francisco, and Plyboo America, Inc from Kirkville, NY. I believe that both use the horizontal laminations. The full article is on our Web site at: http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Product_Reviews/Bamboo_Floor.html Nadav >George, > >Sorry to be so long in answering you message but have been in Alaska on >vacation. > >I am not familiar with the brand you mentioned. It is not one of the >ones I received mailings on. As you suspect, I chose Plyboo because it >is one of the few available here. > >We install by gluing the planks together, leaving a gap around the >perimeter and finishing with a shoe mold. Nail down is not an option >here as all buildings are poured slab-on-grade. > >I am not familiar with the multi-ply type. Plyboo is a solid plank ( and >I do mean solid!). I chose this over the others available because of the >elegance of the finish. >Theirs was the smoothest and most consistant. > >Also, my distributor is an ardent environmentalist who deals in other >non-endangered tropical hardwoods and is extremely knowledgeable and very >helpful with technical support. Too often I have found people rushing to >sell without being able to support the product with expertise or >technical knowledge. I have come to learn that the dealer is as >important as the product. > >Wish I could be of more help. > > >Beverly Weiter >Environs Interiors >Boca Raton, FL > >_____________________________________________________________________ >You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. >Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com >Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 18 16:14:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA03794 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:13:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA10378; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:00:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:55:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA09971 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from math.mit.edu (MATH.MIT.EDU [18.87.0.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09966 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:55:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from severi.mit.edu (SEVERI.MIT.EDU [18.87.0.68]) by math.mit.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06747 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from julie@localhost) by severi.mit.edu (8.8.7/8.6.9) id QAA26467; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806182004.QAA26467@severi.mit.edu> From: Julie Rehmeyer To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Bridges and creosote Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3706 My partner and I are planning on building a house, and the building site is on the other side of a stream from the road. As a result, we need to build some kind of a bridge across the stream, and we are tyring to figure out what kind would be best for us. The stream is not all that big -- maybe 6 to 10 feet across at this time of year, maybe 6 to 12 inches deep. It is about 20 feet across from the 100 year flood mark on one side to the other. We had intially imagined doing culverts and fill, thinking that it would be cheaper and easier, but we are staring to think that may not be the best. It may wash out, and apparently we have to jump through some regulatory hoops to do that since it would be impacting the water flow. Furthermore, it would disrupt a larger amount of the stream thatn we are really happy about, because the fill has to slant down at a 1:3 slope, so it would end up being a 30 foot swath across the stream that was affected. And the final issue is that there is an acequia (an historical irrigation ditch, for the non-New Mexicans in the crowd), and it is not clear how difficult it will be to get permissions to cross the acequia. We would run the acequia through a culvert, but apparently that can affect the speed of the water, which can have bad effects. Yesterday we talked to an engineer who suggested that we build a proper bridge, with concrete piers, railroad ties spanning th gap, and a pad of concrete on top of the railroad ties. He said that such a bridge should be pretty affordable (relative to the culverts) if we do it ourselves. We are planning on doing the house construction ourselves but had assumed that building a bridge was out of the question. In a lot of ways this sounds pretty neat -- less impact on the stream (both because we wouldn't be touching the stream itself and because we wouldn't have to take down as many trees), affordable, it sounds cool to build a bridge, more permanent, etc. But then, of course, there is the fact that the railroad ties are mighty nasty objects, and I'm concerned about that. What exactly are the concerns about creosote? I know the answer to that question to some extent (highly toxic), but where exactly is the toxicity an issue? Is it in the production, or is it a concern that the toxic chemicals will leach into the ground, or is it disposal issues, or all of the above? I guess I would particularly like to know if we need to worry that the creosote will contaminate our stream (in ordinary circumstances, the railroad ties won't touch the water). How about other options, given limitations on money and skill? A couple of things have occurred to us. One option would be to use old telephone poles. I have heard of telephone poles being used in construction, but I don't know very much about it. In particular, I don't know if "telephone poles" are really telephone poles that for some reason are no longer suited for that purpose (why?) or whether, like "railroad ties", they may never have been used as telephone poles at all. The appeal of that idea is that if we would be recycling a resource that might otherwise end up in the landfill, that would make the use of creosote seem far better. A concern with that is that presumably we would have to do some trimming of the wood to make it fit right and have a flat surface to rest against the piers. Would we be exposing ourselves to nasty stuff in the process of handling it? Another possibility that I know very little about is using steel instead. Our image of this is two steel I-beams with a steel grate as the surface. Is that environmentally preferable? affordable? something we could do ourselves? durable? Any ideas or information would be greatly appreciated. Julie ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 18 16:32:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA04417 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11599; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:19:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:16:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11181 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:15:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11175 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:15:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA1-b5.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.166]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA05341 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:24:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3589760E.92126578@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:18:22 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Ants as a metaphor References: <652ee72a.35894bbc@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3707 StudioArc@aol.com wrote: > it sounds a lot like the > guy who says ants are fine out in the yard, but if they come in my house, I > will kill them. Steve, As I am the guy you seem to be misquoting, let me respond. I think if you reread my post you will find I did stop short of offering bounties on any ant hides taken in my kitchen range. If I choose not to pour copious amounts of ant attracting foods stuffs on my floor to see how many legions of ants I can attract, but am quite content watching them going about their fascinating and important jobs, as critical members of the living machine, out at my compost heap, does that make me paramount to the four horsemen? You slander me by labeling me as the modern equivalent of Buffalo Bill Cody, and resent the implication that I am insensitive to the critical importance of bio-diversity. I have contacted my lawyers and they will be in touch with you on this matter. Chuck "the guy" Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 18 16:46:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA04903 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:46:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12440; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:29:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA12068 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:29:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bsa-net.com ([199.218.113.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA12064 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vwh5.concourse.com (vwh5.concourse.com [206.244.123.5] (may be forged)) by mail.bsa-net.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA24176 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:40:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by vwh5.concourse.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BD9AD8.A0046D20@vwh5.concourse.com>; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:46:22 -0400 Message-ID: <01BD9AD8.A0046D20@vwh5.concourse.com> From: "Lane J. Beougher" To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Ants as a metaphor Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:46:21 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA12065 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3708 Mark Wynnemer wrote: "Maybe I'm weird but the discussion of ants has been the most interesting topic I have yet seen in here. These little creatures have elicited such a wide response - some want to kill them, others try to live with them. I see an apt metaphor for the whole BIG PICTURE of how we humans react to environmental survival." I don't think you're in the least bit weird. This is a topic that hits us where we live. It's easier to focus on other what our neighbors are doing to destroy the environment. When it comes down to using baking soda and vinegar to clean the toilet (or even getting rid of the toilet, but that's another thread), we tend to take the easy route and buy the more convenient commercially available toxins. I may have committed ant-icide in a state of frustration, but I am allowing a family of birds to nest behind a loose board on the front of my house. Hopefully, my karmic bank account will balance in the end. It all comes down to how much chaos you're willing to accept. During my first year of architecture school, we were required to read a poem about someone putting a glass jar in the wilderness. No matter how hard the wilderness pressed in upon it, the perfectly round cylinder created a sense of order in the midst of the chaos. This is the whole point of traditional architecture. We create a monument to ourselves and our culture at that moment, and then build it to last forever (durability is one of the tenets of green architecture too). Then when it is no longer used for its original purpose, it either (very slowly) decays back to the original elements or is demolished (entropy). One of the reasons we are reluctant to look into alternative methods of construction (i.e. straw bale, composting toilets, etc.) is that it doesn't fit into this traditional paradigm. How much chaos are we willing to accept? Personally, I don't want ants to clean off my countertops. I'm trying to keep them outside of my glass jar where I'm sure they are much happier. They did serve as a ducts that don't offgas formaldehyde and VOCs, the cost of health care will decrease (well, it could happen). Run for council and convince your local government that if they keep paying for infrastructure so developers can push the city limits beyond the coverage area for police and fire services, they will have to pay for another substation (not to mention gobbling up arable land in mass quantities). Lasting change is from within. Companies are going to start hiring the graduates of environmental science programs. Initially, they will give them just enough power to keep the rest of us off their backs. But eventually these people will rise to more influential positions and have a positive effect on the important decisions. They will begin hiring architects who give ! more than lip service to "sustainable" design. Mark is right about the ant discussion, it has caused me to think about my own role in the Big Picture. I joined the listserv to get the scoop on new materials and processes. I'm beginning to get a new attitude instead. But, I've still got a way to go. Sorry about the length of this post and keep up the good work. Just another Humant. Lane J. Beougher LBeougher@BSA-net.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 18 18:30:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA08528 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:30:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16942; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:17:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:13:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA16481 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:13:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16477 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:13:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1UPKa12330 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:21:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:21:29 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Fuel Cells & Stationary Applications (Press Release) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3709 Good Afternoon all - This just came in off the wire. Regards, Cathy Flanders Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://members.tripod.com/~rkfabf/index.html IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq Fuel Cells are Generating Power and Attention in Stationary Applications Kline's Report, Opportunities in Advanced Fuel Cell Technologies for Power Generation, Assesses the Industry and Makes Predictions About Its Future FAIRFIELD, N.J. June 18 /PRNewswire/ -- Fuel cells are in the initial stages of being commercially deployed in stationary power generation in North America. "Major application sites include: military installations; hospitals; hotels; office buildings; and utility power plants," according to Michael Corbett, Project Manager at Kline & Company, Inc., a Fairfield, New Jersey- based business consulting firm. In addition to fuel cell manufacturers, Corbett notes, "this technology is creating significant business opportunities for material suppliers, utility and power generators, and investors." The US Government, through the "Climate Change Fuel Cell Program" has recently provided $10.6 million in grants for the installation of 53 fuel cells for stationary power generation applications. According to Corbett, "These grants are to assist with the purchase of new units and are in the form of $1,000 rebates per kilowatt." Corbett notes, "Interest in this program has been so strong that it is reportedly full, with more organizations seeking grants than are available." It is anticipated that the global demand for electricity will nearly double by the year 2015. Recent estimates have stated that there are close to 100 fuel cell systems operating around the world. Most of these systems are in the 200kW range and most are operating in United States, Japan, or West Europe. Sales of fuel cells are currently estimated at between 40 to 50 units a year, of approximately 200kW capacity. Recent industry estimates have placed the demand for fuel cells between 2,500 and 6,000 megawatts by 2010. Cinergy Corporation has publicly stated that it is committed to 1.4 gigawatts or 1,400 megawatts installed fuel cell capacity by 2009. This apparent growing demand coupled with such environmental issues as the Clean Air Act, the Kyoto Protocols, and the emergence of "environmentally sensitive areas," will drive the demand for fuel cells to meet new power generation requirements. In addition, Corbett notes, "Utility deregulation is another trend that will have a large impact on fuel cell demand." Fuel cells provide an attractive option as utilities are looking for new ways to compete, grow, meet varying customer requirements and gain greater efficiencies. Fuel cell based generating stations typically have operating efficiencies ranging from 40% to 50%. In comparison, many generating stations operate at 30% to 35% efficiency. Corbett continues, "Fuel cells offer utilities new ways to meet changing customer needs with incremental capacity expansions, and without large capital investments in fixed infrastructures." The basis of fuel cell technology is different from historic norms. According to Corbett, "There will be new opportunities for companies with the ability to meet the changing requirements and this will allow start-up firms and new competitors to participate in emerging markets by bringing the required skill sets and technologies to commercialize this technology on a large scale." Corbett cautions, however, "although there is a good deal of optimism about fuel cell technology, assessing how your business can participate in this growth opportunity is a complex question that requires careful planning and pragmatic, fact-based decision making." To assist companies assess new and emerging opportunities in fuel cell technology, Kline & Company is marketing a comprehensive report on this topic, entitled OPPORTUNITIES IN ADVANCED FUEL CELL TECHNOLOGIES - STATIONARY POWER GENERATION, 1998 TO 2008. The report is specifically designed to provide fuel cell manufacturers, material suppliers, investors, and utility and power generators with a clear understanding of the opportunities presented by fuel cell technology in stationary power generation applications. In addition, the report delivers critical information and insights required to make well informed strategic business decisions about fuel cell technology. Established in 1959, Kline & Company is an international business consulting firm that offers a broad range of services to the specialty chemicals and materials industry. Over the last five years, Kline has completed more than 20 projects related to advanced energy technologies. For information on how to subscribe to this study, contact Michael Corbett, Project Manager, directly at Kline & Company, Inc. (973) 808-3457. Kline & Company, 165 Passaic Avenue, Fairfield, NJ 07004. SOURCE Kline & Company, Inc. CO: Kline & Company, Inc. ST: New Jersey ("information for one-time member use under the Federal Library Act.") ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 18 18:36:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA08692 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17342; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:19:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA17033 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:19:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from radius1.teleport.com (radius1.teleport.com [192.108.254.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17027 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:19:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alee (pdx58-i48-42.teleport.com [204.202.167.184]) by radius1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA12747; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35899371.3A2@teleport.com> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:23:45 -0700 From: A Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: Curt Nichols , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: forget about Fuel cells in the 'burbs -Reply References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3710 Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > Curt: I have personbally inspected residential fuel cells (ie. 10 kW > combined) and there are so many pipes, connections and other balance of system > components that a standard heating/cooling system in a normal home has just a > fraction of this complexity. Until they make appropriate technology with fewer > parts, using non-renewable fuel sources, at cost-effective prices, I will > forget the technology. If I have missed any creative company please inform > me. Jorg Ostrowski > ______________________________________________________________________________ > I On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Curt Nichols wrote: > > > > > Jorge__ > > > > What's this about fuel cell 'risk of malfunction'? For all the years > > that they've been used in space travel, I think there's been one > > malfunction. Fuel cells don't have any moving parts. So, given > > access to fuel (and air) they are supposed to work for years without > > any maintenance. > > > > In fact, a fuel cell that will be going into Portland's main > > wastewater treatment plant is considered 'risk free' enough to also > > serve as the emergency back-up power supply for the plant's control > > center. > > > > I think there's another issue to be discussed. The fuel cells > > electricity-creating chemical process also creates heat. Is that > > waste heat being used in this residential application? I know that's > > nearly always done on industrial or commercial fuel cell applications. > > But, what about these smaller home-sized fuel cells ... are they > > "cogenerating" also? > > > > Curt > > > > Curt Nichols > > Portland Energy Office > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ Jorg: There are two fuel cell technologies being considered for residential scale applications for individual homes. One operates at low temperature and requires a device to convert a hydrocarbon fuel to hydrogen unless you have hydrogen to start with. It does not offer much opportunity for waste heat for other applications, but some. The other technology operates at high temperatures (~1000 deg-C) and doesn't need anything to convert the fuel to hydrogen and generates a lot of high temperature waste heat for other uses. Neither of these technologies has been demonstrated commercially, but both are being worked on actively. The low temperature one is being invested in heavily by the auto industry for vehicle use. As far as relilablity goes, the fuel cell itself can be as reliable as a battery. High temperature and high pressure operations can cause problems, but the low temperature, low pressure systems should be very reliable. The balance of system things you mention are usually where the reliability problems come up. The type of system Portland will use (phosphoric acid) has been demonstrated in hundreds of applications and the entire system has a very good reliability record. This type of system might be a good option for a housing community providing electricity and heat to several homes. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 18 20:29:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA12048 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA21505; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:16:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:12:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA21043 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:12:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from inet-imc-05.mail5-b.microsoft.com (mail5-b.microsoft.com [131.107.3.121]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA21038 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:12:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by INET-IMC-05 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) id ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:20:41 -0700 Message-ID: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D032D9008@red-msg-59.dns.microsoft.com> From: "Michael Skowronski (Comforce/RhoTech)" To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: We need an energy effecient greenhouse Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:20:37 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3711 I am a member of a group that is creating a self-sustaining renewable energy community. We will be located in the mountains of Arizona where we have moderate summer temperatures of 70 to 90F degrees. In the winter we will have cold evenings, 0 to 20F, but normally sunny days 20 to 60F. Currently we are looking at two sizes of greenhouse, one half and one full acre. We will be using only renewable energy so we want it to be energy efficient. For us this means that we will have solar and wind generated electricity. For heat we will have solar hot water supplemented by methane gas as needed. We will be creating our own methane gas so the quantity will be limited. I envision a greenhouse that has the ability to open a fair portion of the roof space and side walls to ventilate excess heat. Many manufacturers are advertising these features, so this should not be a problem. What I am trying to find is a company that has, or can build, a greenhouse that has moveable insulation. Or someone who can modify an existing design for this purpose. I have seen the shade/energy screens and this is only a partial solution. I would like to achieve an R value of 15 or more. I see tracks that carry an insulation quilt or some form of insulation to cover the roof and walls at night as the ideal solution to the problem of heat loss at night. From an engineering point of view I don't see why this would be so difficult. It wouldn't be that much different from the system that carries the shade/energy screens. Thanks, Michael Skowronski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 18 20:46:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA12548 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:46:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA22364; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:29:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA21939 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:29:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA21933 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:29:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA75912; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:37:36 -0600 Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:37:36 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: A Lee Cc: Curt Nichols , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: forget about Fuel cells in the 'burbs -Reply In-Reply-To: <35899371.3A2@teleport.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3712 You said:" the low temperature, low pressure systems should be very reliable. The balance of system things you mention are usually where the reliability problems come up. The type of system Portland will use (phosphoric acid) has been demonstrated in hundreds of applications and the entire system has a very good reliability record. This type of system might be a good option for a housing community providing electricity and heat to several homes." __________________________________________________________________________ We may have a sustainable community that may be interested in the low temperature FC. I am not interested in those systems relying on fossil fuels. We have PV and lots of water (pond & cisterns outdoors, greywater gardens indoors). This allows for the cheapest and cleanest production of hydrogen by electrolysis. If the FC is simple, reliable, effective and can generate 5-10 kW combined thermal and electrical power, I would be interested in hearing more. However, most can only be repaired by flown-in staff. We actually have a small operational table top fuel cell in the office from Warsitz Enterprises in CA. They have been working on a small residential sized fuel cell for some time. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### Jorg: There are two fuel cell technologies being considered for residential scale applications for individual homes. One operates at low temperature and requires a device to convert a hydrocarbon fuel to hydrogen unless you have hydrogen to start with. It does not offer much opportunity for waste heat for other applications, but some. The other technology operates at high temperatures (~1000 deg-C) and doesn't need anything to convert the fuel to hydrogen and generates a lot of high temperature waste heat for other uses. Neither of these technologies has been demonstrated commercially, but both are being worked on actively. The low temperature one is being invested in heavily by the auto industry for vehicle use. As far as relilablity goes, the fuel cell itself can be as reliable as a battery. High temperature and high pressure operations can cause problems, but the low temperature, low pressure systems should be very reliable. The balance of system things you mention are usually where the reliability problems come up. The type of system Portland will use (phosphoric acid) has been demonstrated in hundreds of applications and the entire system has a very good reliability record. This type of system might be a good option for a housing community providing electricity and heat to several homes. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 18 21:35:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA13946 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:35:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24999; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:23:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:19:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA24721 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:19:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24717 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 21:19:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id UAA0000003291; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:27:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980619013036.0069d3c0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:30:36 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: poly, sand and moisture Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id VAA24718 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3713 Not to beat a dead horse, but it is amazing to me the numbers of different ways to build that the individual can swear by; this is what makes the business of building so fascinating to me. My old question about where to put the poly under a brick floor--- (we're just starting with the first step of moving over 30 tons of lime screening into our 1 foot stem wall and stomping all over it—wish I had thought of putting down a bunch of gravel first because I think it would have filled faster)------ I've carefully read the Lstiburek dogma which says that NEVER should one put poly under sand. (He was talking about a slab; does not address a brick floor. Now there's a conundrum when it comes to laying brick, since I would NOT want to put the brick on the poly-----------one detail that was suggested by John S. was to put the poly under a first layer of sand, then add more sand in which the brick will be set. Would appreciate comments since the physics of this escapes me. Lstiburek also says it doesn’t make any difference if some holes get into a vapor barrier since it will still function the way it is supposed to. My other question has to do with the necessity of putting a vapor barrier completely over a stem wall---ie should I? Down the inside into the stem wall cavity.? Has to do with the capillary action of the concrete wall. Finally, my SIP manufacturer details a length of caulking right under the bend of the termite flashing----ever heard of that? (though I mean to ask them why too) Probably just another insurance policy. Seems silly to me, by the way to put termite flashing under a deck where one would never be able to see if they got around it anyway. IF that really is the only reason to do it. Thanks, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 18 23:33:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA17649 for ; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:33:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA29717; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:16:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA29208 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Jun 1998 23:16:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806190316.XAA29208@solstice.crest.org> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 20:48:02 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Gray Water Heat Exchangers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3714 You said:"Ostrowski wrote that his Vestfrost uses $5/year at $0.0614, which is about 80 kWh per year -- George -- Is this possibile? -- even for 4 - 6 months of use? (Does your cold milk go on vacation too, or do you use outdoor coolth?) Is this figure for fridge only, excluding freezer? Is the 0.35 kWh/day model you mention as being available fridge-only?" ____________________________________________________________________________ Andrew: $5.25/year to keep our food cold by combining the use of a "cool closet" and the Vestfrost fridge-freezer. We turned off the fridge at 9:00 AM Sept.16, 1997 and have so far not turned it back on. Evenings usually get down to 5-8dC now-a-days. Last year we had the fridge off for 7 months 3 weeks while we used the great outdoors as our fridge from inside our kitchen. Saves money and greenhouse gas emissions. We have monitored our appliance at 0.40 kWh/day for the fridge only and 1.20 Kwh/day for the fridge and freezer. Our Vestfrost accounts for 3.4% of total electrical demand. Our ambient indoor temperature never got more than 24dC, eventhough EnergyGuide in the US and EnerGuide (CSA) in Canada use 32dC for ambient indoor temperatures for testing purposes which have no relevance in the world of reality, except perhaps mobile homes in CA or TX. The fridge only appliance is rated at 0.35 kWh/day whereas our combination is rated at 0.88 kWh/day. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 05:26:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA27114 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:26:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA08110; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:13:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:09:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA07855 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:09:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA07847 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:09:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA26482; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 02:15:18 -0700 Message-ID: <358A2C09.9CB5CC9F@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 02:14:49 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julie Rehmeyer CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Bridges and creosote References: <199806182004.QAA26467@severi.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3715 Hi Julie I've dealt with company locally that manufactures bridges primarily for logging operations. There yard is full of reject components and salvaged bridge components that they have replaced. Cost is a fraction of the original. Possible components for a 20' span might be precast concrete beams covered with salvaged decking or precast slab. I thought you might have a similar company locally or a metal/concrete salvage company. For such an operation moving and placing these components is not a difficult task - similar to the placement and backfill of a culvert. I can't help but think you would regret dealing with preserved materials and by and large we can never be too careful around a stream. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Julie Rehmeyer wrote: > My partner and I are planning on building a house, and the building > site is on the other side of a stream from the road. As a result, we > need to build some kind of a bridge across the stream, and we are > tyring to figure out what kind would be best for us. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 05:39:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA27402 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:39:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA08541; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:27:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:23:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA08310 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:23:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA08305 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 05:23:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id CAA26558; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 02:29:07 -0700 Message-ID: <358A2F46.D57F6BB1@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 02:28:38 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael Skowronski (Comforce/RhoTech)" CC: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: We need an energy effecient greenhouse References: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D032D9008@red-msg-59.dns.microsoft.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3716 Hi Michael I'm not sure you would need an insulated blanket. I think a retractable cover installed just above the plants (i.e. as close to the ground as possible) would be sufficient to retain heat. A motorized pool cover would work and could be improved with a radiant surface. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Michael Skowronski (Comforce/RhoTech) wrote: > What I am trying to find is a company that has, or can build, a greenhouse > that has moveable insulation. Or someone who can modify an existing design > for this purpose. I have seen the shade/energy screens and this is only a > partial solution. I would like to achieve an R value of 15 or more. I see > tracks that carry an insulation quilt or some form of insulation to cover > the roof and walls at night as the ideal solution to the problem of heat > loss at night. From an engineering point of view I don't see why this would > be so difficult. It wouldn't be that much different from the system that > carries the shade/energy screens. > > Thanks, > Michael Skowronski > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 09:04:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02809 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA14170; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:51:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:47:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA13834 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:47:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13830 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:47:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA32320; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 06:55:16 -0600 Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 06:55:15 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "malcolm.scott@which.net" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Greenhouse Gas Emissions & Housing In-Reply-To: <34645AB3.F5A7E704@which.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3717 Malcolm: Further to your note of below, I may not have enough land negate all greenhouse gas emissions produced in the construction and operation of our home/office but I could start to plan for achieving a positive account and calculate present status and future potential if I had good CO2 absorption numbers for different species of plants (trees, vegetables and flowers). DOES ANYONE HAVE A GOOD REFERENCE The reason that "we emit about 25% of the greenhouse gases by burning wood that any of our neighbours do burning natural gas in their suburban plastic houses" is because we burn a small volume of a more polluting fuel (wood) at a far higher efficiency (94% combustion efficiency), compared to neighbours burning much larger volumes of a cleaner fuel at far lower efficiencies (~63-85%) due to our low heat loss (R-50 walls, R-74 roof, 57% passive solar) compared to their very high heat loss. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### You said:"Jorg is hoping that he has enough land to plant sufficient trees to more than balance his own consumption. I would also be interested to know what area of forest is required to balance a given energy value of firewood. Jorg wrote: we emit about 25% of the greenhouse gases by burning wood that any of our neighbours do burning natural gas in their suburban plastic houses. Is this to do with the different fuel, or the method of using it, or the quantity used? Is this not because the house is partially solar heated, better insulated, more efficient and simply uses less fuel? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 09:11:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA03018 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA14542; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:54:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA14256 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:54:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA14252 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:54:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.99] (ub2.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.99]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA23455 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:03:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3587C7CE.DEA8A97C@cow-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:51:53 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: Non-human occupants Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3718 Folks, I love the ant thread. My approach to the non-human co-habitants is to more or less let things reach homeostatic equilibrium. My own personal favorite experience was with a mouse boom when I lived in the country. Lots of mice, until a weasal moved in and kicked mouse butt for a few days. Weasals are apparently remarkably thorough when cleaning out a mouse population. I saw him or her a couple of times during the reign of terror - once in the greenhouse and once in a crawl behind a second floor sloped roof - good medicine when a weasal visits. Found a few scats, resembling those twisted little wine soaked stoagies my uncle used to smoke. These days, I live trap mice to get them out and try to find where they get in and seal it up with steel. Caught twenty four last fall (the cats only accounted for 5 of them). I get 'em out especially quick if they're deer or white-footed mice because of the risk of Hanta. Ants come and go. I just wash things a little better and keep food under cover. Carpenter ants and I find the leak. Wasps come and go. Last year we had bald-faced hornets in the backyard, yellow jackets in the upstairs wall (I sealed the entrances with caulk this spring cause they make a mess of the insulation) and bumble bees in the cellar (when the new queens hatched out I had about 25 of them in the cellar trying to get out. I opened the cellar window to let them out and an abandoned orange tiger kitten moved in - we kept him). All those hymenoptera - no one got stung. I don't know what to do with carpenter bees or earwigs. I'm harder on the silicone based co-habitants though. When my computer screws up I use a regimen consisting of Norton disk doctor, harsh anti-virals and hostile energy, attempting to pass on shame and make their behavior generally unwelcome. Many of these efforts go unheeded by the expensive, visible evidence of my compulsive techno-buying. When all else fails, I've found that a blast from a 410 takes the fight right out of CPU - regardless of operating system. If firearms aren't for you, I've also found that the truck-ram-test or the crowbar-drop-test can yield satifying results. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 09:51:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04146 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16395; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:34:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15922 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:34:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15918 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:34:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcoplos@aol.com Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id GPZBa06640; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:41:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8feff609.358a6aa2@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:41:52 EDT To: Terry@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Non-human occupants Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3719 In regard to ants, I'd recommend getting an anteater for a pet. Just as cats work for mice, it's so much better to let savage nature take its corpse than to have to intervene messily in the food chain. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 09:55:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04267 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:55:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16959; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:38:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA16388 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.state.me.us (mailhub.state.me.us [141.114.122.227]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16382 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 09:38:27 -0400 (EDT) X400-Received: by mta MTAMaine1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=Mainegovt/; Relayed; 19 Jun 1998 09:05:47 -0400 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=Mainegovt/; Relayed; 19 Jun 1998 09:05:47 -0400 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=Mainegovt/; 02074358A622B284-MTAMaine1] Content-Identifier: 02074358A622B284 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Jim.E.Dusch@state.me.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <"02074358A622B284*/c=us/admd= /prmd=Mainegovt/o=msmail/s=Dusch/g=Jim/i=E/"@MHS> Date: 19 Jun 1998 09:05:47 -0400 From: "Dusch, Jim E" To: John Salmen (Return requested) (Receipt notification requested), Julie Rehmeyer (Return requested) (Receipt notification requested) cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" (Return requested) (Receipt notification requested) Subject: RE: GBlist: Bridges and creosote MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3720 John: Thanks for copying the "greens" -- I'm in the same circumstance but mine is a 40' span that I plan to split into two 20s and it's not primarily for auto travel (only the occasional lawn tractor or snowmobile is foreseeable). I'm not sure creosote is the best way to go with anything because of leaching and dioxin. In fact, we've found here in Maine that each area surrounding the base of creosote treated power poles could technically be treated as superfund sites. As a result, if you're looking to keep the goop out of the resource, you may want to check into all the options. As a side note, I've been looking for a while to nail down the most benign building product to do my bridge with and in the process querried a company in the plastic/composite lumber industry. I've been thoroughly disappointed to not receive any response. Jim Dusch -----Original Message----- From: John Salmen [mailto:terrain@cow-net.com] Sent: Friday, June 19, 1998 05:18 AM To: Julie Rehmeyer Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Bridges and creosote Hi Julie I've dealt with company locally that manufactures bridges primarily for logging operations. There yard is full of reject components and salvaged bridge components that they have replaced. Cost is a fraction of the original. Possible components for a 20' span might be precast concrete beams covered with salvaged decking or precast slab. I thought you might have a similar company locally or a metal/concrete salvage company. For such an operation moving and placing these components is not a difficult task - similar to the placement and backfill of a culvert. I can't help but think you would regret dealing with preserved materials and by and large we can never be too careful around a stream. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Julie Rehmeyer wrote: > My partner and I are planning on building a house, and the building > site is on the other side of a stream from the road. As a result, we > need to build some kind of a bridge across the stream, and we are > tyring to figure out what kind would be best for us. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 10:33:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05454 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:33:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18832; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:20:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:16:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18493 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:16:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18489 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:16:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA8-p40.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.232]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA18214; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358A7354.5636FDBB@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:19:00 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: We need an energy effecient greenhouse References: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D032D9008@red-msg-59.dns.microsoft.com> <358A2F46.D57F6BB1@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3721 Michael, What kind of storage are you using in this rather sizable collector? One of my favorite solar collector/raised bed projects was an ancient Incan project up on an arid plateau in the Andes, in Peru, I don't recall the name of the sight. Archeologists studying this sight, were mystified by the size of the population living in this inhospitable place; arid, frigid at night, poor growing conditions. They were further unable to understand the nature and purpose for a grid work of canals or ditches well beneath the surface of the raised earth patches contained by the grids. Finally someone, I don't remember his name, theorized that the raised beds were cropland and the canals were solar collection and storage facilities. He created a small working model near the sight and discovered that the latent heat stored in the water kept the raised beds sufficiently tempered to allow them to survive the freezing nights. He suspects that geological shifting may have caused the disruption of the flow of water into the system, the water was brought to the site from the other side of the mountains. An impressive piece of engineering, but further proof that human engineering, no matter how grand, is still not up to Gaia's level. Of course, any time we begin feeling omnipotent all we need do is look at some of the Army Corps of Engineer's numerous boondoggles, the Everglades, the Mississippi delta, etc.. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville,NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 10:49:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06012 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:49:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19774; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:37:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:33:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19487 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:33:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19483 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:32:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DF45FFCW; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:40:20 EDT To: nadav@ebuild.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:45:04 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Re: GB Bamboo flooring Message-ID: <19980619.104544.6542.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199806071122_MC2-3F6D-ED2@compuserve.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-7,9-13 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3722 Hi Nadav, By solid I was referring to the fact that the bamboo is all the way through, unlike a number of wood floorings which are onto a plywood-type substrate. The brand I use is Plyboo America. They also sent me a 2ft piece of bamboo stalk which, I can attest, is very thick and extremely hard to cut. The planks I use do not seem to be in layers when viewed from the side, but I could be wrong (it's been known to happen). Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 12:36:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09506 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25463; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:23:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:19:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA25077 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:18:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA25073 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:18:49 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DF5BGT85; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:25:57 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: lark@stic.net, j-dmadden@postoffice.worldnet.att.net, stephencolley@stic.net, DPomerening@swri.edu Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:40:37 -0500 Subject: GBlist: Bill Gates builds a house Message-ID: <19980619.114055.-886205.2.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.07 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4-5,7-12,14-30,32,34-37,39-42,44-51,53,55-64,66-70,72,74-77 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3723 I received this via Email and am unable to cite the source. Nice though: While the Gates' are moving in from their temporary quarters nearby, final construction of their new house is not expected to be completed until the end of the year. A conversation with Bill's contractor might go something like this... Bill: "We need to discuss a few things about my new house." Contractor: "Sure, no problem. You have our basic support option, all calls are free for the first 90 days, after that any question you have will be answered for $75.00 per incident thereafter." Bill: "Oh...?!? Well, the first issue I have is the living room. Its a little smaller than we anticipated from the origional blueprints." Contractor: "Yeah, some compromises were necessary to have your house available to you by the promised release date." Bill: "But I won't be able to fit all our furniture in there." Contractor: "No problem, we anticipated that and have a fix. You can download the stacker blueprints from our corporate headquarters site." Bill: "Stacker?!?" Contractor: "Yeah, these prints allow you to fit twice as much furniture into a room by stacking it. You can put the entertainment center on top of the coffee table, the TV on top of the couch, etc. You just leave an open spot in the middle, and when oyu want to use a peice of furniture, you simply unstack it into the open spot, and put it back when you're done." Bill: "That's a crazy idea, who can live that way? The second issue is the lighting fixtures. The bulbs we brought with us from the old house don't fit into the new fixtures, the threads run the wrong way? Contractor: "That's obvious, they aren't plug and play light bulbs. You'll have to purchase all new bulbs to match your new fixtures." Bill: "and the electrical outlets, the holes are all round, not rectangular. How do i fix that?" Contractor: Easy, just uninstall and reinstall the system." Bill: "Christ, i can't believe all this! And my toilet, when i have guests come over and someone flushes the toilet the water won't stop. The pressure drops so low that the faucets and shower won't even run." Contractor: "That's clearly a resource leakage problem. One fixture is failing to terminate and is hogging the resources from the entire system, preventing access from other fixtures." Bill: "And just how do you expect me to fix that?" Contractor: "Simply exit the house, turn off the water at the main valve clearing the hogging fixture. Turn the water back on, re-enter your house and resume your necessary functions." Bill: "How do you expect to stay in business selling crap like this?" Contractor: Not to worry, we're the only contractor in town, and we have a plan to fix these problems on our next house. Which was due to begin next week, but there have been a few delays..." _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 13:26:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11682 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28629; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:13:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:09:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA28327 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:09:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1-b.microsoft.com (mail1-b.microsoft.com [131.107.3.125]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA28322 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by INET-IMC-01 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) id ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:17:50 -0700 Message-ID: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D032D900D@red-msg-59.dns.microsoft.com> From: "Michael Skowronski (Comforce/RhoTech)" To: "'ashcreek@dreamscape.com'" , John Salmen Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: We need an energy effecient greenhouse Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:17:47 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3724 Chuck Hinckley, If I understand your question about storage (heat storage?) this has yet to be determined. My thoughts were that we would be collecting solar heat during the day in water. But the hot water we gather has to heat our homes, the greenhouse, and provide bathing water as well. I don't know enough about the volumes of water necessary, the size of the collector necessary, the size of the storage. I don't know if this is the best option. I just read an article (http://www.netti.fi/~hakonen/solarhou.html ) about storing the heat from summer underground in sand and rock to then be used to heat ones home during the winter. It seems impossible to me that one could store more than a week or two worth of heat in this kind of a storage unit, or that the size would have to be so large as to make it impossible. Does anyone have any input on this? Anyway we are totally in the planning stages, we don't even have our property yet. The design criteria are: * It must be renewable * It must have no harmful impact on the earth * It must be simple, we need to be able to maintain it ourselves * The cost must be reasonable for the service we receive By the way I want the plants to do better than just avoid freezing. I would like them to flourish, even in the winter. This means keeping the greenhouse temperature up to at least 60 F at night, and even better if possible. Thanks, Michael Skowronski -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Hinckley [SMTP:ashcreek@dreamscape.com] Sent: Friday, June 19, 1998 7:19 AM To: John Salmen Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: We need an energy effecient greenhouse Michael, What kind of storage are you using in this rather sizable collector? One of my favorite solar collector/raised bed projects was an ancient Incan project up on an arid plateau in the Andes, in Peru, I don't recall the name of the sight. Archeologists studying this sight, were mystified by the size of the population living in this inhospitable place; arid, frigid at night, poor growing conditions. They were further unable to understand the nature and purpose for a grid work of canals or ditches well beneath the surface of the raised earth patches contained by the grids. Finally someone, I don't remember his name, theorized that the raised beds were cropland and the canals were solar collection and storage facilities. He created a small working model near the sight and discovered that the latent heat stored in the water kept the raised beds sufficiently tempered to allow them to survive the freezing nights. He suspects that geological shifting may have caused the disruption of the flow of water into the system, the water was brought to the site from the other side of the mountains. An impressive piece of engineering, but further proof that human engineering, no matter how grand, is still not up to Gaia's level. Of course, any time we begin feeling omnipotent all we need do is look at some of the Army Corps of Engineer's numerous boondoggles, the Everglades, the Mississippi delta, etc.. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville,NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 14:07:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12983 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:07:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00651; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:54:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:49:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00060 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:49:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00042 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:48:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Frugally4u@aol.com Received: from Frugally4u@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1FGIa04364 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:56:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:56:57 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Need ideas! Want to move to acreage Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 170 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3725 We've been looking into land for the last year. My husband is a contractor, so we will be able to build cheaply. We found a piece this week - - - 117+ acres , large pond with spring into & stream out of, so it looks nice & clean. Open fields, hard wood & soft wood, lots of animals, an old county road runs up through the middle of it, apple trees, berries everywhere, & the owner planted $300 worth of wildflower seeds a few years ago. There is also a 1994 singlewide mobile home, in great shape - he only goes here to relax & hunt. Oh yes there are 2 deer stands & a boat for the pond. All this for only $ 59,000 I'd like to here from folks who have land, or who have gone through this experience. We don't have enough space in the mobile - there are 6 of us (4 kids 10 - 5). We'd like to build something soon. I've also had ideas of --- growing garlic, christmas trees, wild flowers - herbs - and perennials, having get away cottages for people to camp, cross country skiing, snow mobile trials, deer hunting, a chapel by the pond for weddings, etc........ Just ideas for letting the land help pay the bills & be more self sufficient. Do any of you have ideas for me? I live in Upstate NY - this area get lots of snow. Thanks for your time, Pearl Sanborn ~Publisher http://members.aol.com/frugally4u ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 14:54:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16775 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03329; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:41:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:37:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA02814 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nov.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02804 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:36:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.99] (p99.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.99]) by nov.diac.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA08187 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 18:42:09 GMT Message-Id: <199806191842.SAA08187@nov.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Bridges Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 12:47:00 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3726 On 6/18/98 6:29 PM Julie Rehmeyer wrote: >My partner and I are planning on building a house, and the building >site is on the other side of a stream from the road. As a result, we >need to build some kind of a bridge across the stream, and we are >tyring to figure out what kind would be best for us. First, if you are from NM (your message didn't say), congratulations on having a stream, any stream! I'm just going to make a general comment: in spite of what your engineer seemed to say, any kind of approved bridge is going to be dramatically more expensive and difficult than fill & culvert. Not even close. The longevity will be the same or greater. The 3:1 slope can be tightened to at least 2:1 with a stabilized design approved by an engineer. This opens the door to some aesthetic improvements, by using native stone rip rap, stone walkways, or particular types of plants. If you did a bridge, when large loads are involved, steel quickly becomes cheaper (and more durable) than wood, thus making creosote a moot point. Buzz Burrell Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 14:54:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16792 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03327; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:41:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:37:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA02815 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:36:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nov.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02806 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:36:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.99] (p99.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.99]) by nov.diac.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA08190 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 18:42:10 GMT Message-Id: <199806191842.SAA08190@nov.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: greenhouse Date: Fri, 19 Jun 98 12:47:02 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3727 On 6/18/98 6:29 PM Michael Skowronski wrote: >I am a member of a group that is creating a self-sustaining renewable energy >community. We will be located in the mountains of Arizona where we have >moderate summer temperatures of 70 to 90F degrees. In the winter we will >have cold evenings, 0 to 20F, but normally sunny days 20 to 60F. Currently >we are looking at two sizes of greenhouse, one half and one full acre. This reply may not be what you're looking for, but hope this helps anyway: 1. You might not be aware of how huge an acre under glass is. Unless your community is 200 people, 5 of whom want to work full-time, and you can spend around a half million dollars, you might wish to scale this back a bit. 2. There is a reason that finding a company that sells greenhouses with movable insulation will be hard: it's not a good idea. After lots of experimentation, mostly during the 70's, the KISS theory sort of won out with greenhouse design. Very generally speaking, one could say there are now mostly two types of greenhouses: A) Commercial/Production: These are two layers of poly over a frame of steel tubes kept inflated by a fan. Fans ventilate it, and lots of natural gas heats it. If you run the numbers, it turns out that these are still the most cost-efficient greenhouses to build, in spite of all the energy imputs (and in spite of many other drawbacks, like ugliness). B) Passive Solar: Unlike the above, these are nice to be in; the solar side is fixed insulating glass or fiberglass, the E & W sides are minimal and can be opened for ventilation, and the non-solar side is massive for thermal storage. There's lots of other tricks to #B, but movable insulation is probably not one of them, being problematic and unneccessary. Buzz Burrell Bolder Building ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 15:07:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17334 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03984; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:54:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:50:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03685 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:50:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail4-b.microsoft.com (mail4-b.microsoft.com [131.107.3.122]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA03681 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:50:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail4-b.microsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) id ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:58:47 -0700 Message-ID: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D032D9011@red-msg-59.dns.microsoft.com> From: "Michael Skowronski (Comforce/RhoTech)" To: "'Buzz Burrell'" Cc: GreenBuilding List Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: greenhouse Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:58:45 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3728 Thanks for the info. I would like to understand the problems with movable insulation. What are they? And what about the experiments done in the 70s, are there any papers on these still remaining? It seems simple, a track, a quilt, rollers, a manual draw rope or small motor. Yes I am aware how large an acre is. We wish to grow food and start trees for an income and also to help the environment. And hopefully there will be a corner of the greenhouse with a swimming pool and hot tub for year round enjoyment, this is yet to be seen. I like the passive idea, which is partially what I have in mind. -----Original Message----- From: Buzz Burrell [SMTP:buzz@diac.com] Sent: Friday, June 19, 1998 11:47 AM To: GreenBuilding List Subject: GBlist: Re: greenhouse On 6/18/98 6:29 PM Michael Skowronski wrote: >I am a member of a group that is creating a self-sustaining renewable energy >community. We will be located in the mountains of Arizona where we have >moderate summer temperatures of 70 to 90F degrees. In the winter we will >have cold evenings, 0 to 20F, but normally sunny days 20 to 60F. Currently >we are looking at two sizes of greenhouse, one half and one full acre. This reply may not be what you're looking for, but hope this helps anyway: 1. You might not be aware of how huge an acre under glass is. Unless your community is 200 people, 5 of whom want to work full-time, and you can spend around a half million dollars, you might wish to scale this back a bit. 2. There is a reason that finding a company that sells greenhouses with movable insulation will be hard: it's not a good idea. After lots of experimentation, mostly during the 70's, the KISS theory sort of won out with greenhouse design. Very generally speaking, one could say there are now mostly two types of greenhouses: A) Commercial/Production: These are two layers of poly over a frame of steel tubes kept inflated by a fan. Fans ventilate it, and lots of natural gas heats it. If you run the numbers, it turns out that these are still the most cost-efficient greenhouses to build, in spite of all the energy imputs (and in spite of many other drawbacks, like ugliness). B) Passive Solar: Unlike the above, these are nice to be in; the solar side is fixed insulating glass or fiberglass, the E & W sides are minimal and can be opened for ventilation, and the non-solar side is massive for thermal storage. There's lots of other tricks to #B, but movable insulation is probably not one of them, being problematic and unneccessary. Buzz Burrell Bolder Building ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 15:24:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA18026 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05295; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:11:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:07:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04926 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04913 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:07:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09155; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:15:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 15:15:44 EDT From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: sand/poly floors To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: dlambert@falcon.cc.knas.edu X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199806190600.CAA03617@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA04919 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3729 > My old question about where to put the poly under a brick floor--- > (we're just starting with the first step of moving over 30 tons of lime > screening into our 1 foot stem wall and stomping all over it—wish I had > thought of putting down a bunch of gravel first because I think it would > have filled faster)------ I've carefully read the Lstiburek dogma which says > that NEVER should one put poly under sand. (He was talking about a slab; > does not address a brick floor. Now there's a conundrum when it comes to > laying brick, since I would NOT want to put the brick on the > poly-----------one detail that was suggested by John S. was to put the poly > under a first layer of sand, then add more sand in which the brick will be > set. Would appreciate comments since the physics of this escapes me. The reason to avoid poly under sand under the floor slab is the following -- if the water table ever rises, the water will flow into the sand through tiny punctures and tears in the poly. The water will saturate the sand. Once the water table drops, the sand will hold the water. The poly will not allow the vapour to move down, so it will be trapped in the floor. If you are using a brick floor with sand joints, the vapour permeance is high, and the water will evaporate to the interior. If mortar joints, it will take a long time to dry out the floor. > Lstiburek also says it doesn’t make any difference if some holes get into a > vapor barrier since it will still function the way it is supposed to. This is absoultely true, within reason. 5% openings will reduce the effectiveness a bit more than 5% -- and this is no big deal. Of course, and hole in the air barrier is a bigger problem. > My other question has to do with the necessity of putting a vapor > barrier completely over a stem wall---ie should I? Down the inside into the > stem wall cavity.? Has to do with the capillary action of the concrete wall. I am not sure what you are doing, but poly or painted-on tar, or building paper should seperate the concrete foundation from all other parts of the building, since capillarity will wick water up into contact. Why install poly under the brick floor in the first place? I guess it is a good air barrier (if in a radon zone or sand joint floor). But a layer of crushed gravel would do just a good a job as poly to control capillarity. > Finally, my SIP manufacturer details a length of caulking right > under the bend of the termite flashing----ever heard of that? (though I > mean to ask them why too) Probably just another insurance policy. Seems > silly to me, by the way to put termite flashing under a deck where one > would never be able to see if they got around it anyway. IF that really is > the only reason to do it. It may be for air or water tightness, not termites. Hard to say from the description. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 17:05:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21684 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09486; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:52:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:48:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA09185 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.42]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09180 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:47:59 -0400 (EDT) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1VOHa04311 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 16:56:14 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Bridges Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3730 In a message dated 98-06-19 14:47:52 EDT, buzz@diac.com writes: << If you did a bridge, when large loads are involved, steel quickly becomes cheaper (and more durable) than wood, thus making creosote a moot point. >> what about a lenticular truss system ??? Linda Lloyd GreenShelter ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 17:18:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA22250 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:18:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA10310; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:05:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:01:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09905 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:01:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09897 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:01:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([194.168.100.227]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA12646; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:09:47 +0100 Message-ID: <358AD3A6.5AA7A46F@which.net> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 22:09:59 +0100 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) Reply-To: malcolm.scott@which.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rkfabf@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Fuel Cells & Stationary Applications (Press Release) X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3731 With combined cycle efficiencies in 55-60% range using the same fuel as these fuel cells, I don't know why a utility would be interested in using them. Malcolm Scott Rkfabf@aol.com wrote: > Fuel cell based generating stations typically have operating > efficiencies ranging from 40% to 50%. In comparison, many generating > stations operate at 30% to 35% efficiency. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 19:29:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA27483 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:29:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA14915; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:12:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA14534 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oak (caroldag@oak.liii.com [198.207.193.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA14530 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:11:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "Carol D'Agostino" Received: by oak (8.8.6/8.8.5) id XAA04888; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:20:35 GMT Message-Id: <199806192320.XAA04888@oak> Subject: Re: GBlist: Fuel Cells & Stationary Applications (Press Release) To: malcolm.scott@which.net Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:20:34 -0400 (EDT) Cc: Rkfabf@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <358AD3A6.5AA7A46F@which.net> from "malcolm.scott@which.net" at Jun 19, 98 10:09:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3732 As a civilian in this group, it appears to me that fuel cells might be a viable back up device if the predicted Year 2000 calamity really happens, that is, if power grids fail because of embedded computer chips in their plant equipment. Carol caroldag@liii.com > With combined cycle efficiencies in 55-60% range using the same fuel as > these fuel cells, I don't know why a utility would be interested in > using them. > Malcolm Scott > > > Rkfabf@aol.com wrote: > > > Fuel cell based generating stations typically have operating > > efficiencies ranging from 40% to 50%. In comparison, many generating > > stations operate at 30% to 35% efficiency. > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 19:36:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA27704 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:36:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA15358; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:23:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:19:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA15020 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:19:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.39]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA15007 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:19:42 -0400 (EDT) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1GRUa05170 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:27:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8d91214.358af3ff@aol.com> Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:27:57 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: fuel cells Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3733 interestingly enough - on the Home and Garden channel Thursday night - the 21st century home show did a segment on fuel cells -- they said that residential testing would be done in late 1999 (sounds like they are a little behind ) and that researchers are working on using solar power to extract hydrogen from water to power the cells - I haven't checked, but perhaps there is some info on their web site about the segment ---www.21stcenturyhome.com Linda Lloyd - GreenShelter ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 21:13:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA01399 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:13:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17675; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 20:56:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA17389 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 20:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA17384 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 20:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA99066; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:03:49 -0600 Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 19:03:49 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "malcolm.scott@which.net" Cc: Rkfabf@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: NG turbines vs NG fuel cells In-Reply-To: <358AD3A6.5AA7A46F@which.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3734 Before inheriting the superfluous complexities and liabilities of a technology that won't see the light of day in residential applications for many years to come, I would rather spend my time, effort amnd money in proven technologies with a 85-88% efficiencies with proven track records such as natural gas turbines, when all renewables fail. These too are co-gensets. Jorg Ostrowski _______________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: > > With combined cycle efficiencies in 55-60% range using the same fuel as > these fuel cells, I don't know why a utility would be interested in > using them. > Malcolm Scott > > > Rkfabf@aol.com wrote: > > > Fuel cell based generating stations typically have operating > > efficiencies ranging from 40% to 50%. In comparison, many generating > > stations operate at 30% to 35% efficiency. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 21:52:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA03422 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:52:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19073; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:39:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:35:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18749 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.38]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18742 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:35:24 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id RCMSa04556; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:43:11 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:43:11 EDT To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: NG turbines vs NG fuel cells Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3735 Jorg, You seem to be set on trashing fuel cell technology, which to me seems like the most promising key to a truly renewable non-polluting modern economy. Hydrogen made from electrolysis of water driven by wind turbines and photovoltaics, stored as a mobile high energy fuel and then converted to electricity and/or heat to run autos and buildings with water as the by product. Perhaps I am missing something, but I find it discouraging to have the supposed leaders of the sustainable building movement all excited about hugging ants, living underground, and focusiing all sorts of energy on handling their own feces in the ultimately perfect way, while propogandizing against a truly sustainable solution to a modern economy. At times I feel that many folks on the list want to turn back the clock a few centuries rather than move forward to a sustainable future. My readings of history don't impress me with the feeling that it was a peaceful and glorious all natural nirvana in the good old days, but most often a brutal and cruel struggle for survival. Who has some good news about fuel cells? What can we do to encourage the technology? Onward to a better future, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 19 23:37:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07381 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:37:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA22053; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:24:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:20:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21755 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:20:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21749 for ; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA37002; Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:27:17 -0600 Date: Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:27:17 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: FUnger@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: NG turbines vs NG fuel cells In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3736 You said:" You seem to be set on trashing fuel cell technology, which to me seems like the most promising key to a truly renewable non-polluting modern economy. Hydrogen made from electrolysis of water driven by wind turbines and photovoltaics, stored as a mobile high energy fuel and then converted to electricity and/or heat to run autos and buildings with water as the by product." __________________________________________________________________________ Fred: If you were to check my previous postings you would find very specific criticism of FC along with criteria that would make them acceptable. The most sustainable of technologies are those that are "appropriate", or low tech. "Advanced" technology has very little promise except were there is no other choice (ie. in outer space). Those technologies that increase the complexity of harware, the risk of malfunction, compulsory grid-interties, bank loans and highly skilled specialists for repair are not appropriate nor sustainable. For fuel cells to achieve terrestial success they have to be vastly simplified, use renewable resources (not fossil fuels), be easy to repair, be cost-competitve and not require an unbilical cord (or extension line). As also previously mentioned, when FC achieve some of these breakthroughs and can run on hydrogen from my PV system and any water supply on site, I too will get excited. I am still looking for a progressive FC company that comes close (I actually did mention one). Perhaps you should ask for a tour around the inside of a small FC to see how you would like it. It will make your Honda look like a child's toy. I have seen very little progress during the last 6-8 years. I have more faith in devices based on quantum mechanics than in FC at this point. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jun 20 11:13:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28792 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:13:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04099; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Jun 1998 10:55:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03787 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 10:55:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03783 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 10:55:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa3-p18.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.82]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA16131 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:04:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358BCDF8.C7257735@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 10:58:00 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Don't delete this one! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3737 Dear list members, I don't care whether you read everything I post, but I do hope you read this one. This got me very pissed when I read it, I'm going to write my elected officials and try to talk some sense into them, I hope you will do the same. This isn't so different from numerous other examples of backwards, stupid, harmful, useless government sponsored insanity but this one just smacked me in the face this morning. For those of you who don't read my news posts because you're not subscribed, get off your butts, it is free. For those who don't because you don't like my slant on things, try this one, it is positively obscene in it's arrogance. For those who do read my posts, wait 'til you see what those boneheads are doing now, even Dow Chemical says this one is over the top. http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/world/colombia-coca-herbicide.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jun 20 11:42:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29779 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:42:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04931; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:29:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:26:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04681 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:25:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04677 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:25:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa3-p18.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.82]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA21848 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:34:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358BD526.B5935950@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 11:28:38 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: deletable----consumtion Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3738 Another article from today's NYTIMES. > Schor is on to something plausible here. Starting as children, we compete to consume, and we keep > upping the ante. From the enameled lunch boxes of the 1970's, children have traded up to two pairs > of $150 Air Jordan sneakers, one white, one black. Meanwhile, parents are plotting to entomb > themselves in trophy houses Schor calls McMansions, stuffed with computers, Jacuzzis and > restaurant-grade stoves. What Schor sees is ''a kind of mass 'overspending,' '' by which she means > that ''large numbers of Americans spend more than they say they would like to. . . . That they spend > more than they realize they are spending, and more than is fiscally prudent. And that they spend in > ways that are collectively, if not individually, self-defeating.'' http://www.nytimes.com/books/98/06/21/reviews/980621.21kilbort.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jun 20 12:22:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01104 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05992; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:09:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:05:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05784 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:05:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MIT.EDU (PACIFIC-CARRIER-ANNEX.MIT.EDU [18.69.0.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05780 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:05:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MIT.MIT.EDU by MIT.EDU with SMTP id AA25162; Sat, 20 Jun 98 12:14:26 EDT Received: from [18.80.2.75] by MIT.MIT.EDU (5.61/4.7) id AA02676; Sat, 20 Jun 98 12:14:20 EDT X-Sender: ospelt@po10.mit.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:14:09 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: ospelt@MIT.EDU (Christoph Ospelt) Subject: Re: GBlist: NG turbines vs NG fuel cells Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3739 >Who has some good news about fuel cells? What can we do to encourage the >technology? Onward to a better future, Fred >______________________________________________________________________ Anybody interested in looking over the ocean should get some information from "Hexis". http://www.hexis.com/ This Swiss company focuses on fuel cells for residential buildings. I have seen a presentation a year ago. Their field tests are very promising and their products should be on the market in 2001. Their technology is supposed to be simpler and more robust than other fuel cells. To run the fuel cell more economically, they will provide some base load heat and are combined with a natural gas boiler for peak load. I guess we will have to wait a good few years yet until fuel cells can compete economically with a traditional boiler. It finally depends on the price you get for the electricity you sell to the grid. Christoph ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jun 20 13:03:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA02456 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07590; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:50:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:46:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA07316 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:46:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07312 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 12:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id JAA26588 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 09:55:19 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 20 Jun 1998 09:53:02 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: HERBICIDE To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA07313 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3740 Folks, Thought I'd pass along this message I received from the Pat Robertson network: "Dear Fellow Americans: It has come to our attention that the New York Times--also known as New Left Times--has once again told more lies and half-truths than gospel-believing veracity. Here's the real truth about those brown people in South America: they have more faith in the Pope than they do in our Lord Jesus Christ, and most of them are either queer or dope addicts, and it is our Christian duty to turn the whole land mass south of the Mexican border into a parking lot. We must first, of course, allow legitimate capitalist blood-suckers to sell for a profit to the yellow people whose Godlessness is causing them economic ruin. Herbicide in the name of Jesus is no crime! Yours in Fundamental Christianity, Trent Lott Jesse Helms Newt Gingrich" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jun 20 14:45:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA05100 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:45:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09655; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:32:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:28:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09414 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:28:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stan.lcc.net (secure.lcc.net [207.70.172.248]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09410 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:28:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lcc.net (hunt-pri5-a27.lcc.net [207.70.180.217]) by stan.lcc.net (8.8.5/8.7.5) with ESMTP id NAA22113; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:36:55 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <358C03AB.83C034FA@lcc.net> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:47:07 -0500 From: Kim Travis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: REBAR References: <35840B83.EDF19626@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3741 Bamboo could also be an alternative provided you do not have a moisture problem. Kim Travis John Salmen wrote: > A couple of questions around rebar usage. I had come across a reference > a while ago that rebar grids in walls and floors can create a harmfull > interior environment. I've never been able to track down references as > to what the connection to magnetic fields could be, and the only > thoughts I've had is that ground coupling of a buildings reinforcement > would be a conduit for naturally ocurring fields. I understand some of > the principals of a faraday's cage but cannot see how that would be > operative here other than some disruption of frequencies from entering > the enclosed space. > > Does anyone have any more information on this as I would like to at > least be aware of the potential or extent of concern here. I'm looking > at a concrete project that will require significant reinforcement for > stiffness and want to ensure beyond reasonable doubt that there is no > potential effect from steel usage and also want to become aware of what > alternatives are available. > > An alternative is fiberglass rebar and this could have some other > benefits. Is anyone familiar with fiberglass rebar usage and under what > usage it might be considered a good alternative and what some of the > production values (emb. energy) might be in comparison to steel. > > Many thanks as always for having this place to ask these questions. > > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jun 20 17:31:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA09449 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13899; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:18:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:14:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13648 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13644 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 17:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.topher.net (ppp09.topher.net [206.136.138.168]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01274 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 16:09:22 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199806202109.QAA01274@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: "greenbuilder" Subject: GBlist: Radiant Paint Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 16:24:30 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3742 A friend just bought and existing home and was curious about using a radiant barrier interior wall paint - specifically Radiance™ Low-E Wall Finish. I checked out their web site, but found no technical information about how the paint works. I found two other products - Cerama-Tech and INSULADD which use ceramic particles in the paint to act as radiant barriers. Does anyone have any favorable experience with any of these products? I can picture how a radiant barrier on the interior would help you "feel" warmer in the winter, but I'm not sure how much summer help it would provide. The structure will heat up (we are in Texas) and conduct into the living space so I don't know how much radiant rejection an interior coating will provide. Seems like the paint would get hot and radiate into the living space as well. Thanks, Paul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jun 20 22:17:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA16494 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:17:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA20256; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:04:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:00:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19908 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:00:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo30.mx.aol.com (imo30.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.74]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19870; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:00:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo30.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 9JXYa26166; Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:07:16 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 22:07:16 EDT To: iaq@onelist.com, abasonreel@abanet.org, owner-stoves@crest.org, arilist@erols.com, ee-building@crest.org, earthvision@getf.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: danderson@bd-law.com (David Anderson), peter@qjhp.com, mehrban@earthlink.net (Morse Mehrban), cehgreen@igc.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: FYI -Carolina's Environmental Conference & NSF International IAQ Conference Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3743 (my apologies for any cross-posts) Here's some information on 2 conferences I've recently received that I thought I'd pass on to this list. Regards, Cathy Flanders Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://members.tripod.com/~rkfabf/index.html #################################################################### Carolina's Environmental & Safety Conference The Charlotte (NC) Chamber of Commerce is sponsoring the Carolina's Environmental & Safety Conference at the Adams Mark Hotel, September 9, 10 & 11, 1998. The confernce will provide regulatory updates from both North & South Carolina OSHA and EPA officials, as well as exhibitors providing the latest on technology and products. The seminars have been developed for safety managers, industrial hygienists, occupational health nurses and physicans, as well as environmental engineers and managers. Careful planning of topics address the specific needs of the Environmental, Health & Safety Manager. For further information, please contact Lucy LeGrand, Director of Professional Development at LLegrand@charlottechamber.org or call her at the Charlotte Chamber at 704-378-1325. #################################################################### International IAQ Conference First NSF International Conference on Indoor Air Health Impacts, Issues, and Solutions May 3-5, 1999 Marriott Tech Center, Denver, Colorado The First NSF International Conference on Indoor Air Health: Impacts, Issues, and Solutions will be held in Denver, Colorado, where the Great Plains meet the Rocky Mountains. This panorama figuratively expresses the contrasting and complementary viewpoints of medical, scientific, academic, laboratory, regulatory and industry forces focused on critical indoor air health (IAH) issues. Many compelling questions with few definitive answers characterize the current national and international IAH dialogue. This conference approaches the diverse spectrum of IAH issues from the challenging perspective of public health implications or endpoints.  This investigative forum on the public health aspects of indoor air quality invites research-based peer-reviewed presentations on the impacts of contaminants, irritants, triggers, toxicants and other occupant exposure hazards related to the health endpoints and issues outlined in the conference topics. The Conference Will… •Integrate available IAH knowledge and research; •Advance science-based discussion of indoor air health issues; •Identify existing information gaps on national and international levels; •Establish impacts, analyze issues, and outline endpoint-based solutions; •Determine emerging data needs and future research directions; and •Promote indoor air-related public health safety. You are Invited… •to present papers on your work •to exhibit your products and services •to receive benefits and recognition as a sponsor Conference Topics… Presentations are sought on: •Public Health Aspects of Indoor Air Quality •Establishment of Occupant Exposure Limits (OELs) •Baseline Risk Assessment and Analysis •Experimental Design, Sampling and Methodology Development •Asthma and Diagnostic Measurements •Allergens and Other Respiratory Health Triggers •Indoor Air- Related Chronic Health Conditions •Immuno-Compromising and Opportunistic Infections •Biomarkers and Indoor Air Contaminants •Product Emissions Toxicants •Odors and Airborne Irritants •Infectious and Airborne Diseases •Technological Advances and Software Contributions •Air Filtration Implications •Myths and Misperceptions Abstract Submission… Send a one-page 250-word summary (no references) by September 11, 1998. Include the conference title, conference topic addressed, paper title, problem explored, methodology used, results and conclusion. Notification of paper acceptance and author kit mailed in October, 1998. All camera-ready copy due by January 15, 1999 for peer review. About NSF International… NSF is an independent not-for-profit organization specializing in public health safety and environmental quality since 1944. NSF International's public health activities center on the four areas of air, water, food and environment. Services include consensus standards development; product testing and certification; research and development; and education and training. Who Should Attend… •Medical researchers and practitioners •Environmental contractors and consultants •Building experts, architects, and engineers •Material specialists and chemical analysts •Toxicologists and public health professionals •Regulatory and government agency staff •Sanitarians and environmental health specialists •Indoor air quality testing laboratory staff •Audit and risk assessment providers •International import/export trade facilitators •University environmental health educators •Software suppliers •Trade association personnel •Automotive materials and polymer/plastics engineers •Epidemiologists •Equipment manufacturers •Plant and facility managers •Environmental and industrial hygienists •HVAC owners, operators, manufacturers, brokers, wholesalers, retailers and dealers Conference Program… •Opening and Closing General Sessions •Twelve Endpoint-focused Work Sessions •Interactive Poster Sessions •Town Meeting-style Audience Participation •Exhibits Program •Training Courses •Social Events •Guest Activities •Peer- reviewed Proceedings Available at the Conference •Final Report with Participant Recommendations after the Conference. Contact… Wendy Raeder NSF International 3475 Plymouth Road Ann Arbor, MI 48105 USA Phone: (1) 734 769 8010, ext. 205 Fax: (1) 734 769 0109 E-mail raeder@nsf.org http://www.nsf.org Please provide mail/delivery/e-mail address and facsimile number on all correspondence. ("information for one-time member use under the Federal Library Act.") ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 21 15:06:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA08893 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 15:06:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07867; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:53:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:47:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07537 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:47:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07530 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:47:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA19213; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 11:52:34 -0700 Message-ID: <358D5651.C795FB1A@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 11:52:01 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kim Travis CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: REBAR References: <35840B83.EDF19626@cow-net.com> <358C03AB.83C034FA@lcc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3744 Hi Kim thanks for the response. Bamboo would have been a definite first but it is on the list of 'not yet possible items . . . but soon'. I have a long list of such items. best John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Kim Travis wrote: > Bamboo could also be an alternative provided you do not have a moisture > problem. > > Kim Travis > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 21 16:19:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA10535 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:19:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09709; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:05:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:01:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA09421 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:01:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09417 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00120 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:10:25 -0400 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-15-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.15]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA03051 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:10:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980621160641.006b1ed0@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:06:41 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Re: Natural refrigeration In-Reply-To: <199806190600.CAA03617@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3745 Jorg D. Ostrowskiw wrote: >Andrew: $5.25/year to keep our food cold by combining the use of a "cool >closet" and the Vestfrost fridge-freezer. We turned off the fridge at 9:00 >AM Sept.16, 1997 and have so far not turned it back on. Evenings usually get >down to 5-8dC now-a-days. Last year we had the fridge off for 7 months 3 >weeks while we used the great outdoors as our fridge from inside our >kitchen. Saves money and greenhouse gas emissions. ..." Jorg -- and Others -- I am working on a design for an off-grid house in a colder part of Vermont where it makes sense to use our wonderful natural refrigeration for most of the year. Does anyone know of plans, and better yet, have experience with: 1. "Cool cabinets" which I imagine controls air flow between the cabinet and outdoors somehow, 2. Controls for root cellars that tightly control inside temperature, or 3. Antifreeze loops from inside refrigerator-like boxes or refrigerators themselves to the outdoors with appropriate controls. Seems like this one could be a thermo-siphon loop with a couple of recycled auto heater cores, one inside and one out, with an appropriate non-electric modulating valve inside the fridge box. This seems like it would have an adavantage over the air system of not drying the food out as much. Any thoughts appreciated. What are the critical variables? Thanks Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc. Montpelier VT 05602 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 21 18:44:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA14818 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 18:44:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA13670; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 18:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 21 Jun 1998 18:24:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13331 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 18:24:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oak (caroldag@oak.liii.com [198.207.193.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13327 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 18:24:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "Carol D'Agostino" Received: by oak (8.8.6/8.8.5) id WAA18106; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 22:33:32 GMT Message-Id: <199806212233.WAA18106@oak> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Natural refrigeration To: ashapiro@together.net (Andrew M. Shapiro) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 18:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980621160641.006b1ed0@together.net> from "Andrew M. Shapiro" at Jun 21, 98 04:06:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3746 > > Jorg D. Ostrowskiw wrote: > >Andrew: $5.25/year to keep our food cold by combining the use of a "cool > >closet" and the Vestfrost fridge-freezer. We turned off the fridge at 9:00 > > Jorg -- and Others -- I am working on a design for an off-grid house in a > colder part of Vermont where it makes sense to use our wonderful natural > refrigeration for most of the year. Does anyone know of plans, and better > yet, have experience with: > > 1. "Cool cabinets" which I imagine controls air flow between the cabinet > and outdoors somehow, > > Any thoughts appreciated. What are the critical variables? Thanks > > Andy Shapiro > Energy Balance, Inc. > Montpelier VT 05602 USA > Andy, The old Sears Catalog homes had a cool closet in the kitchen. I saw such a home on Bob Villa's Home Again TV show. Neat idea. The air circulated from deep under the house all the way up to the roof, I think. Carol caroldg@liii.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 21 19:28:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA15854 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA15380; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:15:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:12:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA15108 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:12:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA15103 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tempest.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@tempest.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.93]) by donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id TAA02643 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:20:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by tempest.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with SMTP id TAA02752 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:20:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 19:20:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@tempest.rs.itd.umich.edu Reply-To: Peter Reppe To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: PVC substitutes Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3747 Dear all- Are the only alternatives to PVC as the material for sewer plumbing pipes galvanized steel, ABS, copper and brass? Do you have any recommendations for a material with the least environmental burdens? Thanks a lot. Best, Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greening-of-Dana homepage http://www.snre.umich.edu/greendana/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Reppe e-mail: reppe@umich.edu National Pollution Prevention Center phone : 734-936-2535 University of Michigan fax : 734-647-5841 430 E. University Ann Arbor, MI http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub 48109-1115 U.S.A. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reppe -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jun 21 21:59:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA20760 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19166; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:46:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:41:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18914 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:41:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18905 for ; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:41:21 -0400 (EDT) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id EPATa26053; Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:49:29 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <8ff66180.358db82b@aol.com> Date: Sun, 21 Jun 1998 21:49:29 EDT To: reppe@umich.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: PVC substitutes Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3748 I somehow remember clay pipe as an option. "Vitrified clay tile pipe"... something like that. You might ask your local plumbing inspector - ours is a great source of good information, plus you find out what will be allowed at the same time. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 108 S. Albany St. Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 08:04:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA05150 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:04:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA07583; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 07:51:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 07:47:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA07313 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 07:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07309 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 07:47:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.71.18.145] (pm2a0.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.160]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA29249; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 07:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 07:56:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Peter Reppe , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: PVC substitutes Cc: charlotte@ebuild.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3749 At 7:20 PM -0400 6/21/98, Peter Reppe wrote: >Are the only alternatives to PVC as the material for sewer plumbing pipes >galvanized steel, ABS, copper and brass? Do you have any recommendations >for a material with the least environmental burdens? Thanks a lot. When I last checked, there were seven manufacturers of vitrified clay pipe in the U.S. These products are primarily used for water supply or sewage. There are some clay pipes in use today that have been in continuous use for 170 years! The expected life of new clay pipes is 100+ years. Vitrified clay pipes are fired to 2,000 degrees-F, which makes them highly resistant to chemicals, and the expansion coefficient is extremely low. Contact the National Clay Pipe Institute (414/248-9095), which can provide you with information. For anyone interested, we ran an in-depth article on alternatives to PVC in a wide range of product areas in January/February 1994 issue of Environmental Building News. This issue, and all others up through the end of 1997 is available on a newly expanded and greatly improved CD-ROM that we sell for $149 (less for EBN subscribers). Give Charlotte a call or send her an e-mail note if you want some more details: 800/861-0954 or charlotte@ebuild.com. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 08:17:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA05449 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:17:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08098; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:04:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:01:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07814 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cityweb.de (mail1.cityweb.de [193.189.224.209] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07806 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:00:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cityweb.de (essn-m103-55.pool.cww.de [195.71.103.55]) by mail.cityweb.de (8.8.7/8.8.7/powered by Telemedia) with ESMTP id OAA18393; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:09:26 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <358E22D1.5BFFE633@cityweb.de> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:24:34 +0100 From: Vern & Helga LeCount Reply-To: vernonlecount@cityweb.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andrew M. Shapiro" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Natural refrigeration References: <3.0.1.32.19980621160641.006b1ed0@together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3750 Andy Shapiro wrote: > I am working on a design for an off-grid house in a >colder part of Vermont where it makes sense to use our wonderful natural >refrigeration for most of the year. Does anyone know of plans, and better >yet, have experience with Cool cabinets Vernon responds: In an off grid house I built in central Maine we built in one cool cabinet and a freezing cabinet. Summer cooling is maintained by a gas refrigerator. The cool cabinet appeared to be a corner "lager" in the kitchen measuring about two meters square of floor space with a normal ceiling height. It is heavily insulated all the way around except for a 1.5 square meter of uninsulated outside north wall. This "window" to the siding (in this case stone/masonry wall) has a sliding foam insulated door that adjusts to keep the cool closet from freezing in the middle of the New England winter. We use a thermometer and manually adjust the door. But a thermoswitch and motor could be arranged that made this automatic. Our experience was that the panel had to be closed half way at night during most the winter. The freezer cabinet was merely a uninsulated chamber built on the outside of the north wall of the kitchen, which could be accessed via an insulated door from the kitchen. This space was no bigger than a freezer in a standard gas refrigerator. RE: Root cellar If the cellar is built properly it should not have too much temperature variation. I thought the problem with root cellars is too much moisture. But these are cellars that are built deeply into the ground or a hill side. I wouldn't know how to do a root cellar in the basement of an envelope home, for instance. Vernon LeCount Essen, Germany ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 09:12:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07450 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09653; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:58:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:55:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09401 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:54:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nov.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09397 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:54:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.94] (p94.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.94]) by nov.diac.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA26957; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:00:12 GMT Message-Id: <199806221300.NAA26957@nov.diac.com> Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: greenhouse Date: Mon, 22 Jun 98 07:05:13 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "Michael Skowronski (Comforce/RhoTech)" cc: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3751 On 6/19/98 12:58 PM Michael Skowronski (Comforce/RhoTech) wrote: >Thanks for the info. I would like to understand the problems with movable >insulation. What are they? And what about the experiments done in the 70s, >are there any papers on these still remaining? It seems simple, a track, a >quilt, rollers, a manual draw rope or small motor. You need to see an old Zomeworks catalog! Steve Baer invented, patented, and sold numerous solar gizmos; the Beadwall in particular was a classic. Beads of Syrofoam were blown between two panes of glass in the evening, and sucked out in the morning. The manufacture of high-tech glazing sort of stole most of the market for such creative thinking. I like Duettes (the honeycomb shades), and used to put decorated foam board in north window openings for the winter, but nothing more complex. Movable insulation certainly can work (especially for a home), but it requires owner operation, the mechanisms fail, it takes up space during daytime, and it's difficult to get an air seal, all of which means, most people just use glass of R-6 or better. Buzz Burrell Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 10:10:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA09261 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:10:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12080; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:53:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11460 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:53:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.state.vt.us (mail.state.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11454 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:53:18 -0400 (EDT) From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Received: from vdhvax ([159.105.135.2]) by mail.state.vt.us (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-44988U13000L13000S0) with SMTP id AAA181 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:02:09 -0400 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:01:17 -2359 Message-Id: <98062210011721@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Icynene X-VMS-To: SMTP%"greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3752 Quote from the Icynene website: "You may be considering turning your attic into a usable living space, or giving a room below it a vaulted ceiling by removing the original ceiling. To insulate this space, Icynene can be sprayed directly onto the underside of the roof deck without risk of condensation. If you have knee walls with storage behind them, Icynene can be used to insulate the cold side of these walls as well as the floor of this space." Has anyone tried this? Any thoughts or comments on this or on Icynene in general (a search of the list archives also showed a few references)? This would make an upcoming project much simpler, but I am by nature skeptical of "sounds too good to be true" claims. Mike mrogers@vdh.state.vt.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 10:11:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA09313 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:11:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12222; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:58:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:54:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11589 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:54:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2-b.microsoft.com (mail2-b.microsoft.com [131.107.3.124]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11577 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail2-b.microsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2166.0) id ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 07:02:33 -0700 Message-ID: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D032D901A@red-msg-59.dns.microsoft.com> From: "Michael Skowronski (Comforce/RhoTech)" To: "'ashcreek@dreamscape.com'" , "'John Salmen'" Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: We need an energy effecient greenhouse Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 07:02:26 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2166.0) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3753 My apologies if you receive this twice, however it was bounced back to me as undeliverable so I thought I would try again. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Skowronski (Comforce/RhoTech) Sent: Friday, June 19, 1998 10:18 AM To: 'ashcreek@dreamscape.com'; John Salmen Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: We need an energy effecient greenhouse Chuck Hinckley, If I understand your question about storage (heat storage?) this has yet to be determined. My thoughts were that we would be collecting solar heat during the day in water. But the hot water we gather has to heat our homes, the greenhouse, and provide bathing water as well. I don't know enough about the volumes of water necessary, the size of the collector necessary, the size of the storage. I don't know if this is the best option. I just read an article (http://www.netti.fi/~hakonen/solarhou.html ) about storing the heat from summer underground in sand and rock to then be used to heat ones home during the winter. It seems impossible to me that one could store more than a week or two worth of heat in this kind of a storage unit, or that the size would have to be so large as to make it impossible. Does anyone have any input on this? Anyway we are totally in the planning stages, we don't even have our property yet. The design criteria are: * It must be renewable * It must have no harmful impact on the earth * It must be simple, we need to be able to maintain it ourselves * The cost must be reasonable for the service we receive By the way I want the plants to do better than just avoid freezing. I would like them to flourish, even in the winter. This means keeping the greenhouse temperature up to at least 60 F at night, and even better if possible. Thanks, Michael Skowronski -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Hinckley [SMTP:ashcreek@dreamscape.com] Sent: Friday, June 19, 1998 7:19 AM To: John Salmen Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: We need an energy effecient greenhouse Michael, What kind of storage are you using in this rather sizable collector? One of my favorite solar collector/raised bed projects was an ancient Incan project up on an arid plateau in the Andes, in Peru, I don't recall the name of the sight. Archeologists studying this sight, were mystified by the size of the population living in this inhospitable place; arid, frigid at night, poor growing conditions. They were further unable to understand the nature and purpose for a grid work of canals or ditches well beneath the surface of the raised earth patches contained by the grids. Finally someone, I don't remember his name, theorized that the raised beds were cropland and the canals were solar collection and storage facilities. He created a small working model near the sight and discovered that the latent heat stored in the water kept the raised beds sufficiently tempered to allow them to survive the freezing nights. He suspects that geological shifting may have caused the disruption of the flow of water into the system, the water was brought to the site from the other side of the mountains. An impressive piece of engineering, but further proof that human engineering, no matter how grand, is still not up to Gaia's level. Of course, any time we begin feeling omnipotent all we need do is look at some of the Army Corps of Engineer's numerous boondoggles, the Everglades, the Mississippi delta, etc.. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville,NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 10:49:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10510 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:49:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15138; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:32:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14757 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:32:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.42]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14752 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:32:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcoplos@aol.com Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id WKQa004311; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:25:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <86db0c52.358e6941@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:25:04 EDT To: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Icynene Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3754 I considered Icynene for a job, but the cost was so much higher than wet-spray cellulose that it didn't seem cost-effective. It costs a lot to get set up for icynene. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 11:02:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10879 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15915; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:49:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:46:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15577 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:45:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15572 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DGCVD2PH; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:53:41 EDT To: wordsandmusic@compuserve.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:26:02 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Re: Bamboo flooring Message-ID: <19980622.105919.6678.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199806192316_MC2-40C4-C404@compuserve.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,8-12 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3755 Hi George, Yes, it is Foreverwood. Tom is more knowledgeable in this than I and has seen a lot more installations. For my part, I find the product more than acceptable but think you would be better to address your concerns to Tom. Perhaps he can even give you a viable comparison between Plyboo and the brand you mentioned. I am sure he did quite a bit of research before he decided which brand to deal in. Let me know how it all turns out. Best luck. Beverly Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 12:43:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13876 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:43:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20407; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:30:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:26:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20031 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20027 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:26:00 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1WVRa22587 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:34:16 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Icynene Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3756 Mike, I used icynene on my last job with normal stud cavities and loved it. Fast easy, seals up around subcontract work. We used it with a vapor retarding primer on the plaster. It was expensive and the contractor that installed it was hard to deal with. I also found the US rep for the company less than helpful when I met him at a trade show. Don't know about the attic details you suggest, but the product itself seems great. If they could some more installers set up so there was some choice and competition, it would be my favorite insulation solution. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 13:00:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14373 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 13:00:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21578; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:47:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:43:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21245 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:43:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.state.me.us (mailhub.state.me.us [141.114.122.227]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21241 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:43:23 -0400 (EDT) X400-Received: by mta MTAMaine1 in /c=US/admd= /prmd=Mainegovt/; Relayed; 22 Jun 1998 11:42:44 -0400 X400-Received: by /c=US/admd= /prmd=Mainegovt/; Relayed; 22 Jun 1998 11:42:44 -0400 X400-MTS-Identifier: [/c=US/admd= /prmd=Mainegovt/; 0039D358E7B74939-MTAMaine1] Content-Identifier: 0039D358E7B74939 Content-Return: Allowed X400-Content-Type: P2-1988 ( 22 ) Conversion: Allowed Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text Disclose-Recipients: Prohibited Alternate-Recipient: Allowed X400-Originator: Jim.E.Dusch@state.me.us X400-Recipients: non-disclosure; Message-Id: <"0039D358E7B74939*/c=us/admd= /prmd=Mainegovt/o=msmail/s=Dusch/g=Jim/i=E/"@MHS> Date: 22 Jun 1998 11:42:44 -0400 From: "Dusch, Jim E" To: Julie Rehmeyer (Return requested) (Receipt notification requested), "greenbuilding@crest.org" (Return requested) (Receipt notification requested) Subject: RE: GBlist: Bridges and creosote MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3757 I'm in the same circumstance but mine is a 40' span that I plan to split into two 20s and it's not primarily for auto travel (only the occasional lawn tractor or snowmobile is foreseeable). I'm not sure creosote is the best way to go with anything because of leaching and dioxin. In fact, we've found here in Maine that each area surrounding the base of creosote treated power poles could technically be treated as superfund sites. As a result, if you're looking to keep the goop out of the resource, you should check into alternatives. As a side note, I've been looking for a while to nail down the most benign building product to do my bridge with and in the process querried a couple companies in the plastic/composite lumber industry. I've been thoroughly disappointed with not receiving any response. Jim Dusch -----Original Message----- From: Julie Rehmeyer [mailto:julie@math.mit.edu] Sent: Thursday, June 18, 1998 04:05 PM To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Bridges and creosote My partner and I are planning on building a house, and the building site is on the other side of a stream from the road. As a result, we need to build some kind of a bridge across the stream, and we are tyring to figure out what kind would be best for us. The stream is not all that big -- maybe 6 to 10 feet across at this time of year, maybe 6 to 12 inches deep. It is about 20 feet across from the 100 year flood mark on one side to the other. We had intially imagined doing culverts and fill, thinking that it would be cheaper and easier, but we are staring to think that may not be the best. It may wash out, and apparently we have to jump through some regulatory hoops to do that since it would be impacting the water flow. Furthermore, it would disrupt a larger amount of the stream thatn we are really happy about, because the fill has to slant down at a 1:3 slope, so it would end up being a 30 foot swath across the stream that was affected. And the final issue is that there is an acequia (an historical irrigation ditch, for the non-New Mexicans in the crowd), and it is not clear how difficult it will be to get permissions to cross the acequia. We would run the acequia through a culvert, but apparently that can affect the speed of the water, which can have bad effects. Yesterday we talked to an engineer who suggested that we build a proper bridge, with concrete piers, railroad ties spanning th gap, and a pad of concrete on top of the railroad ties. He said that such a bridge should be pretty affordable (relative to the culverts) if we do it ourselves. We are planning on doing the house construction ourselves but had assumed that building a bridge was out of the question. In a lot of ways this sounds pretty neat -- less impact on the stream (both because we wouldn't be touching the stream itself and because we wouldn't have to take down as many trees), affordable, it sounds cool to build a bridge, more permanent, etc. But then, of course, there is the fact that the railroad ties are mighty nasty objects, and I'm concerned about that. What exactly are the concerns about creosote? I know the answer to that question to some extent (highly toxic), but where exactly is the toxicity an issue? Is it in the production, or is it a concern that the toxic chemicals will leach into the ground, or is it disposal issues, or all of the above? I guess I would particularly like to know if we need to worry that the creosote will contaminate our stream (in ordinary circumstances, the railroad ties won't touch the water). How about other options, given limitations on money and skill? A couple of things have occurred to us. One option would be to use old telephone poles. I have heard of telephone poles being used in construction, but I don't know very much about it. In particular, I don't know if "telephone poles" are really telephone poles that for some reason are no longer suited for that purpose (why?) or whether, like "railroad ties", they may never have been used as telephone poles at all. The appeal of that idea is that if we would be recycling a resource that might otherwise end up in the landfill, that would make the use of creosote seem far better. A concern with that is that presumably we would have to do some trimming of the wood to make it fit right and have a flat surface to rest against the piers. Would we be exposing ourselves to nasty stuff in the process of handling it? Another possibility that I know very little about is using steel instead. Our image of this is two steel I-beams with a steel grate as the surface. Is that environmentally preferable? affordable? something we could do ourselves? durable? Any ideas or information would be greatly appreciated. Julie ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 14:29:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA17460 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25666; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:14:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:10:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25314 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:10:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25301 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA73994; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:17:28 -0600 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 12:17:28 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: FUnger@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Icynene In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3758 Fred: We also like the above, EXCEPT for the copius amounts of material that has to be shaved-off and usually wasted (extra landfill, extra cost, extra time), if you are not imaginative to reuse use it elsewhere on-site. ******************************************************************************** Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Mon, 22 Jun 1998 FUnger@aol.com wrote: > > Mike, > > I used icynene on my last job with normal stud cavities and loved it. Fast > easy, seals up around subcontract work. We used it with a vapor retarding > primer on the plaster. It was expensive and the contractor that installed it > was hard to deal with. I also found the US rep for the company less than > helpful when I met him at a trade show. Don't know about the attic details > you suggest, but the product itself seems great. If they could some more > installers set up so there was some choice and competition, it would be my > favorite insulation solution. > > > Fred > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 14:52:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18230 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:52:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26943; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:35:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26594 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26586 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:35:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA1-c5.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.198]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA04345 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:44:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358EA480.84A7B9C8@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:37:52 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Icynene References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3759 FUnger@aol.com wrote: > > Mike, > > I used icynene on my last job with normal stud cavities and loved it. Fast > easy, seals up around subcontract work. We used it with a vapor retarding > primer on the plaster. It was expensive and the contractor that installed it > was hard to deal with. I also found the US rep for the company less than > helpful when I met him at a trade show. Don't know about the attic details > you suggest, but the product itself seems great. If they could some more > installers set up so there was some choice and competition, it would be my > favorite insulation solution. > > Fred Fred, We've used Icynene with very good results, but I do agree that more competitive pricing would be welcome. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 15:08:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA18650 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28015; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:55:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:50:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27640 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:50:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27633 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:50:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA1-c5.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.198]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA09330 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:59:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358EA81E.5151E897@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 14:53:18 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Icynene References: <98062210011721@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3760 mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us wrote: > > Quote from the Icynene website: > > "You may be considering turning your attic into a usable living > space, or giving a room below it a vaulted ceiling by removing > the original ceiling. To insulate this space, Icynene can be > sprayed directly onto the underside of the roof deck without risk > of condensation. If you have knee walls with storage behind > them, Icynene can be used to insulate the cold side of these > walls as well as the floor of this space." > > Has anyone tried this? Any thoughts or comments on this or on > Icynene in general (a search of the list archives also showed a few > references)? This would make an upcoming project much simpler, > but I am by nature skeptical of "sounds too good to be true" claims. > > Mike > mrogers@vdh.state.vt.us > Mike, We did this exact job a couple of years ago, the issue of moisture is eliminated by Icynene against the roof deck, but we had serious ice problems above this section. We sometimes forget that the ventilation serves more than one purpose. The only time I'm hurt by ventilation is when I don't use enough or it's poorly designed. Use the Icynene but don't eliminate the ventilation. The icynene will still allow you to get a higher R and better seal without losing to much headroom, even if you have to maintain a minimum air space for venting. You seem to be from Vermont by your email, so snow and ice are certainly an issue for this project, if you are doing it locally. If this project is getting a new roof you can put the vent space above the old deck, my personal favorite solution in this circumstance. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 15:25:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19121 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA29103; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:08:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28587 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28571 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:08:06 -0400 (EDT) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 25917 invoked by uid 0); 22 Jun 1998 19:18:21 -0000 Received: from ppp-25.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.219?) (198.175.11.219) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 22 Jun 1998 19:18:21 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 15:23:48 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Natural refrigeration Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3761 Andy Shapiro asked: -------------------------------- Jorg -- and Others -- I am working on a design for an off-grid house in a colder part of Vermont where it makes sense to use our wonderful natural refrigeration for most of the year. Does anyone know of plans, and better yet, have experience with: 1. "Cool cabinets" which I imagine controls air flow between the cabinet and outdoors somehow, 2. Controls for root cellars that tightly control inside temperature, or 3. Antifreeze loops from inside refrigerator-like boxes or refrigerators themselves to the outdoors with appropriate controls. Seems like this one could be a thermo-siphon loop with a couple of recycled auto heater cores, one inside and one out, with an appropriate non-electric modulating valve inside the fridge box. This seems like it would have an adavantage over the air system of not drying the food out as much. Any thoughts appreciated. What are the critical variables? Thanks Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc. Montpelier VT 05602 USA ------------------------------------------ Andy, About 15 years ago I visited the house of a professor at the "alternative" college near Montpelier VT. I think he was a physicist. Not only did he have a Jacobs wind generator for electricity and a solar hot water system, but he also had made a totally passive refrigerator. It was a heavily insulated box built into the North wall of his kitchen. I think it had at least 6" of injected polyurethane foam in the walls and door. The bottom half of the cool chamber was devoted to a cubic yard of ice. There were copper coils filled with freon which led from a heat exchanger outside the house into the big block of ice. I think it also required some type of valve, but no electricity or other power. The freon very efficiently moved the "cold" from the outside of the house, into the ice block. More efficiently than just the "antifreeze thermosiphon loop" you refer to. That's because the freon undergoes a phase change from gas to liquid, just like in a regular refrigerator. And I think it can be set up to undergo the phase change even at temperatures above freezing, so that night time temperatures of something like 45 degrees F were cold enough to freeze some of the water in the refrigerator. I think he said that starting in about late September it would start freezing the ice block during cold nights. The block would be frozen solid in another month or so, and then it would stay frozen until late July or even August of the next year, simply because there was so much insulation! The "ice house" effect. He said he slightly miscalculated, and if he did it again he would use a larger block of ice so that it could stay at freezing temperature year round. He pointed out some of the difficulties. One is the amount of floor space it takes up. Probably two or three times as much as a conventional refrigerator. Second, the insulation in such massive quantities is expensive, and he said there were diminishing returns with adding more than about 6" ... I think due to the geometry when trying to superinsulate a relatively small block ... the surface area of the ice cube is 6*9=54 square feet, but once you've added 6" of insulation, the outside surface area across which you're trying to restrict heat flow becomes 6*16=96 square feet, or almost double. There was no freezer compartment, and the total interior volume seemed smaller than the average refrigerator's. Also, I believe he was pretty careful not to open the door unnecessarily and he avoided putting hot foods into the refrigerator. Finally, it almost has to be a built-in unit. I can't remember his name but if he (or his house) is still around you might be able to track it down since you live right near him. If you're really interested I might be able to dig up more contact info. Also, I know plenty of people around here in Northern New York who use root cellars which can easily keep things cool at least 9 months out of the year. I think some have rigged up those Thermafor automatic temperature-controlled window openers to open vents at night and close them off when the temperature rises (the opposite of their use to prevent daytime overheating in greenhouses). A good topic for the hot and muggy weather we're seeing in the Northeast today. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 17:38:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA23452 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:38:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06083; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:25:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:21:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05585 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:21:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05578 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:21:21 -0400 (EDT) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1TULa11436 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:29:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <140eaa27.358eccc3@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:29:38 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Icynene Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3762 people mention pricing and people not nice to work with -- in and around Vermont - I can recommend Henri at Foam Tech - he has super green foam (no longer green, but same idea) - he installed it in guest house in Vermont for me ---- the closed cell is its own vapor barrier --- Linda Lloyd - GreenShelter ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 17:39:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA23508 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:39:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06200; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:26:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:22:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05680 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bsa-net.com ([199.218.113.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05672 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vwh5.concourse.com (vwh5.concourse.com [206.244.123.5] (may be forged)) by mail.bsa-net.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA09732 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:34:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by vwh5.concourse.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BD9E04.D0D4B2A0@vwh5.concourse.com>; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:40:15 -0400 Message-ID: <01BD9E04.D0D4B2A0@vwh5.concourse.com> From: "Lane J. Beougher" To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Herbicides from Heaven Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 17:40:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id RAA05673 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3763 Chuck Hinckley wrote: "I don't care whether you read everything I post, but I do hope you read this one. This got me very pissed when I read it, I'm going to write my elected officials and try to talk some sense into them, I hope you will do the same. This isn't so different from numerous other examples of backwards, stupid, harmful, useless government sponsored insanity but this one just smacked me in the face this morning. For those of you who don't read my news posts because you're not subscribed, get off your butts, it is free. For those who don't because you don't like my slant on things, try this one, it is positively obscene in its arrogance. For those who do read my posts, wait 'til you see what those boneheads are doing now, even Dow Chemical says this one is over the top." This reminds me of the ill-fated spraying of Mexican marijuana with herbicides in the late 70's early 80's. Remember "don't spray our pot with paraquat?" The growers still marketed the product and it made many tokers quite ill. Our tax dollars at work. My take on this is if people choose to poison their own bodies, let them. Don't poison the rest of the world to compensate. By the way if you want to look this up in the Times' archives, and you should, I found it by searching for keyword "coca" http://search.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+site+19926+1+wAAA+cocoa PS. The sky IS falling. Lane J. Beougher LBeougher@BSA-net.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 19:31:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA26757 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:31:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10906; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:18:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:14:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10557 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA10553 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:14:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Frugally4u@aol.com Received: from Frugally4u@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1VZYa05237 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2c379aa6.358ee73c@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:22:35 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Natural refrigeration Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 170 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3764 In a message dated 6/22/98 3:18:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cneurath@northnet.org writes: > Also, I know plenty of people around here in Northern New York who use root > cellars which can easily keep things cool at least 9 months out of the > year. I'd like to find out anything I can about root cellars, cool boxes and such, for northern NY. I live in Camden NY near Rome, Syracuse, Utica, . We're getting ready to move - 117+ acres. We want to build a house - fibrous cement - ? And I want to do everything I can to be self sufficient here in the pre- stages. Thanks alot, Pearl Sanborn ~ Publisher http://members.aol.com/frugally4u ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 21:26:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA00114 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA14735; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:09:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14450 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:09:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14446 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:09:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.13] (blf13.acadia.net [205.217.217.13]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA03923 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:18:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:18:24 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Choosing clients Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3765 Is it better to work with clients who are already committed to sustainable building, or to work with whoever comes your way and attempt to educate them? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 21:40:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA00536 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15983; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:27:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:23:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15506 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15478; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 21:23:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31338; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:31:10 -0600 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:31:09 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: Environmental costs of electricity Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3766 Someone said:"In the meantime I have been proofreading a book that makes reference to a paper by M. Chupta and D. Howarth, entitled: Renewable Electric Generation an assessment of air pollution prevention potential, Washington D.C. published by the Environmental Protection Agency in 1992." _______________________________________________________________________________ Does anyone know these gentlemen or have this publication? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 23:07:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA02578 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA19354; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:54:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:49:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19009 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:49:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA19004 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA19065; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:55:25 -0700 Message-ID: <358F1907.1627CDB8@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 19:55:03 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Choosing clients References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3767 Hi David If someone is willing to work with an identified green designer then its a degree of committment, at least that is what I've found. A green consumer is a narrow demographic often representing a group that actually is not 'green' in consumption or living habits, i.e. occupy too much space and have too many toys. Personally I would feel much further ahead and much happier introducing a few greener or even some more untainted air into a low income housing project than debating with a well informed consumer the pros and cons of a particular building or building related system. Another problem is the differentiation between 'natural building' and 'green' building. A client can become enthused about a particular approach that could represent some environmental ethos but when actually plonked on a site could result in an environmental disaster. Recently I decided to expand and work at taking on more projects, and more light commercial or institutional projects. There will be some loss of focus on innovation but I think I can work at introducing more 'alternative' concepts into a larger aspect of our local experience in a way that could filter into greater acceptance. some thoughts and thanks for the question John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. David M. Foley wrote: > Is it better to work with clients who are already committed to sustainable > building, or to work with whoever comes your way and attempt to educate > them? > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 22 23:36:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA02947 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:36:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA20483; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:22:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:19:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA20071 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:18:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20067 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:18:46 -0400 (EDT) From: JNH2@aol.com Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1HDZa03745 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:27:05 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <495ee4f6.358f208a@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:27:05 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Choosing clients Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3768 It certainly would be nice to pick clients, and have their attitudes be in line with notions of environmental support that make sense. There is an awful lot of latitude between doing "no further harm" to our world and actually building in a sensitive and sustainable manner. But then it would also be nice to have a measure of control over the weather as well. Not to be flippant at all. From my perspective, the leaning (or sharp shove!) toward more sane design and building practises is our job, and is not dependent on some wonderfully informed consumer who can pay our fees. A little bit better is sometimes all we can get, but it is far and away a vast improvement over many design professionals whose primary aim is their own portfolio and the next big fee. Conscious and sane design is essential, but otherwise unimportant. Not a paradox, nor a hopeless cause, merely a goal we must continually keep before us and scramble after. The art of living is much more like wrestling than dancing, and that belongs in all caps for the design community. Unfortunately there is no reasonable test to wash out or exclude those in this business that can find no sense of "noblisse oblige" which is a shame, because the sane, sensitive designers and craftsmen must compete for our next meals against carnival barkers who will blight our landscape and move on down the road. Didn't mean to preach to the choir. be well and proud of your work Jim Holdcraft ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 00:05:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA03281 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21398; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:48:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21102 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:48:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA21098 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:48:22 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id RSMGa06640; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:55:47 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <755bd899.358f2757@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:55:47 EDT To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Icynene Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3769 Jorg, We put the shaving and chunks in the attic, but doing a good job was less than easy. Supposedly the icynene people are coming out with a scrubber unit that cleans the wall flush and a blower/grinder that grinds up the waste and blows it into the attic as loose fill cavity insulation over a two inch sealer of sprayed in place foam. Definitely the missing links in the job i did. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 00:14:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA03339 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:14:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA21868; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:01:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:57:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21592 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:57:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.39]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA21588 for ; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:57:16 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id GJGa005170; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:04:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6951ef9d.358f2960@aol.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:04:47 EDT To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Choosing clients Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3770 David, Great question. >From an ecological perspective I don't know the answer. I would suspect that educating and turning on one more person would do more good in the long term. >From a business perspective I always found it easier to deal with clients who decided that I was the professional in the relationship and thus they should place their trust in me on technical matters. So I guess I'll vote for educating folks with less expertise and committment. Two decades of building and designing have essentially taught me how little I know and how much more I have to learn. The last thing I need in my life is an overly committed dogmatic client that just read some book by the expert of the week and is now going to tell me how to do my job. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 01:17:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA03903 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA23966; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:00:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA23660 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:00:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from germany.it.earthlink.net (germany-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA23645 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 01:00:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust143.tnt10.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.28.143]) by germany.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA24777; Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <358F3892.3D1@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 22:09:38 -0700 From: David Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Choosing clients References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3771 David M. Foley wrote: > > Is it better to work with clients who are already committed to sustainable > building, or to work with whoever comes your way and attempt to educate > them? It's a question not unlike another I encounter as a builer: Is it better to hire less expensive but new apprentices or more expensive, seasoned journey-level carpenters? It really takes both. Apprentices in the long run cost way more than they produce, and seem to drag back the whole crew at times, but they also become the journey-level workers of tomorrow. Kind of a capital investment. The journey-level carpenter can be relied upon for advice and skills I haven't learned, but they also can have the proclivity to habits and biases that are hard to kick. I like working with well-informed and enthusiastically-green clients, because we can go places most customers won't. But I also like the act of opening up new possibilities for clients who'd never considered deeper implications of building. A lot of times, the more conventional clients subsidized the more green work that we do. Seth Melchert Master Builders ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 06:29:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA05896 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 06:29:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA01277; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 06:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 06:11:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA01023 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 06:10:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA01019 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 06:10:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA02158 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 06:19:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from asy14.vineyard.net(206.166.158.33) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma002144; Tue Jun 23 06:19:23 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 06:21:28 +0100 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: Choosing clients Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3772 Hi David - Thanks for asking: >Is it better to work with clients who are already committed to sustainable >building, or to work with whoever comes your way and attempt to educate >them? I'm not after clients with a "commitment to sustainable building" (too specific and limited) but rather clients with a commitment to strong relationships based on trust, to reasonable expectations, to forthright communication, and to the optimistic approach that it takes to craft a successful collaboration. The rest will follow. I've found that no matter what people do in life, if they do it well they are potentially good clients. They can't imagine you doing their job so they can't imagine knowing how to do yours, and they are looking for practitioners they can count on as much as they expect others to count on them. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 07:41:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA06268 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA02964; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:27:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:23:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA02721 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806231123.HAA02721@solstice.crest.org> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 00:19:55 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: One more time, crawl insulation alternatives Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3773 Since this post did not make in to the eeba-list (I had mysteriously been unsubscribed), and since relatively few (but thoughtful ) responses came through greenbuilding, I thought I would make one more run at soliciting your opinions. Option 1: Insulate the addition to our new home with conventional batts in floor, redo the total crawl space ground cover overall with 6 mil plastic, seal all openings in crawl (including foundation vents), HVAC ducts, attic, etc. Thus the crawl would be dryer though not truly "conditioned", or is that so? note--our local building official has a problem with sealing our vents. Option 2: Insulate the total house crawlspace itself, via extruded PS on the walls (2" to give a "true R10"), thus reducing some of the things needed in option 1, since the crawl is now "conditioned space", but overall, about $750 more than option 1 for our c2600 SF one story cedar sided home with crawl-mounted forced air heat pump (elec backup) near the end of its useful life. Anne & I are considering a pond loop system in the future. If spatterdock (lilypads) could be used for fuel, we would be home free. [the existing house has 6" batts in the floor joists. Attic is R19 (FG loose) currently, with improvement proposed there separately using blown wet cellulose] Option 2 has a few added benefits (likely warmer bath floor, fewer worries about frozen pipes, etc), but the $$ weigh a bit. I would really appreciate your opinions. Many thanks in advance,.as b4, and especially to those who have already responded. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 09:56:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA10539 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06610; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:43:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:39:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06267 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:39:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06261 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:39:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sequoia.together.net (sequoia.together.net [204.97.120.25]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA02282 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:48:36 -0400 Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-18-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.18]) by sequoia.together.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA21684 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:48:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980623094455.006b6d78@together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:44:55 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Subject: GBlist: Re: Green Icynene?? In-Reply-To: <199806230318.XAA20084@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3774 About Icynene I have stayed away from recommending Icynene because it has been my understanding that similar insulative value and similar air-blocking properties can be achieved with densepack or wet-spray cellulose, which is a recycled, non-oil-based product. Where I last compared cost the cellulose was also cheaper. Fred Unger: Have you compared the price? Does Tony Walker work his cellulose magic out your way? Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, inc Montpelier VT USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 10:06:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10787 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:06:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07153; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:53:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:49:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06763 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:49:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06759 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 09:49:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA107050; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:56:04 -0600 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:56:03 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "Andrew M. Shapiro" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Green Icynene?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980623094455.006b6d78@together.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3775 You said:"I have stayed away from recommending Icynene because it has been my understanding that similar insulative value and similar air-blocking properties can be achieved with densepack or wet-spray cellulose, which is a recycled, non-oil-based product." ___________________________________________________________________________ Andrew: By implication you seem to indicate that icynene is oil-based. Is that correct? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 10:23:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11324 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:23:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08242; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:10:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:06:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07881 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:06:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07877 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:05:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from alee (pdx56-i48-07.teleport.com [204.202.167.21]) by mail1.teleport.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA00870; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <358FB741.1FCD@teleport.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 07:10:09 -0700 From: A Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christoph Ospelt CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: NG turbines vs NG fuel cells References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3776 Christoph Ospelt wrote: > > >Who has some good news about fuel cells? What can we do to encourage the > >technology? Onward to a better future, Fred > >______________________________________________________________________ > > Anybody interested in looking over the ocean should get some information > from "Hexis". > http://www.hexis.com/ > > This Swiss company focuses on fuel cells for residential buildings. I have > seen a presentation a year ago. Their field tests are very promising and > their products should be on the market in 2001. Their technology is > supposed to be simpler and more robust than other fuel cells. > > To run the fuel cell more economically, they will provide some base load > heat and are combined with a natural gas boiler for peak load. > > I guess we will have to wait a good few years yet until fuel cells can > compete economically with a traditional boiler. It finally depends on the > price you get for the electricity you sell to the grid. > > Christoph > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ It looks like they use solid oxide, which runs at about 900 deg-C. This technology has been under development for about 20 years and Westinghouse has invested a lot in it. This type and the PEM, low temperature technology are the only two that I've seen considered scalable for individual residential sizes. The auto industry is investing heavily in PEM technology so I would expect some major improvements there before the solid oxide small-scale technology is feasible. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 10:40:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11820 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:40:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09322; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:23:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08971 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.state.vt.us (mail.state.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08966 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:23:38 -0400 (EDT) From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Received: from vdhvax ([159.105.135.2]) by mail.state.vt.us (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-44988U13000L13000S0) with SMTP id AAA129 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:32:30 -0400 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:30:27 -2359 Message-Id: <98062310302760@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Green Icynene?? -Reply X-VMS-To: SMTP%"greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3777 Icynene (TM) is polyicynene. I'm not a chemist, and the Icynene site ( http://www.icynene.on.ca/ ) doesn't describe what it is or how the raw materials are manufactured. EBN Volume 4, No. 1 -- January/February 1995 reports in the article "Insulation Materials: Environmental Comparisons" (http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Features/Insulation/Insulation.html) that it is a petroleum product. One of the differences between this and other foam-based insulation is that Icycnene uses CO2 as a blowing agent (rather than HCFCs or HFCs). is that Icycnene uses CO2 as a blowing agent (rather than HCFCs or HFCs). ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 10:47:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12092 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:47:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09852; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:30:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09478 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09473 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:29:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa7-p23.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.151]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA14366 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:38:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358FBC7E.4CD893DB@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:32:30 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Green Icynene?? References: <3.0.1.32.19980623094455.006b6d78@together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3778 Andy, What are the stated R factors your working with, my experiance is that dense packed cellulose is around 3.2 per inch and Icynene is around 4. Not a huge difference but worth noting. The one down side I have experienced with wet pack cellulose is the huge volume of water you spray into the walls, if you wait for it to dry properly, it sets your schedule back considerably. Other than the water problem I have been satisfied with sprayed cellulose. http://www.icynene.on.ca/ Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY Andrew M. Shapiro wrote: > > About Icynene > > I have stayed away from recommending Icynene because it has been my > understanding that similar insulative value and similar air-blocking > properties can be achieved with densepack or wet-spray cellulose, which is > a recycled, non-oil-based product. > > Where I last compared cost the cellulose was also cheaper. Fred Unger: > Have you compared the price? Does Tony Walker work his cellulose magic out > your way? > > Andy Shapiro > Energy Balance, inc > Montpelier VT USA > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 10:50:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12236 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10308; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:37:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:33:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09770 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:33:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09765 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:33:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DGFE4UEM; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:41:43 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:47:03 -0700 Subject: GBlist: IKEA Message-ID: <19980623.104705.6550.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-7 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3779 GB Listers, Does anyone out there know how I can get a copy of the IKEA catalogue? Do they have a web-site? Thanks for your help. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 10:52:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12269 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10495; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:39:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:35:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09979 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:34:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09971 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:34:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DGFE4UAX; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:41:42 EDT To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:10:24 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Choosing clients Message-ID: <19980623.104705.6550.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-10 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3780 Hi, I choose to do both. I help those already committed and continually try to educate those who aren't - often with surprisingly good reception, particularly when I approach it from the standpoint of their health and the health of their loved ones. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 11:11:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA12890 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:11:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11398; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:58:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:53:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11068 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-gateway.csgrp.com (smtp-gateway.csgrp.com [207.31.245.98]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11064 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 10:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806231453.KAA11064@solstice.crest.org> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:00 -0500 From: "John Livermore" To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Energy Star Homes Program (Press Release) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3781 Thought you all might be interested in this. Regards, John Livermore Phone: 413.533.5122 Fax: 413.533.9095 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- New England Utilities Launch EPA's ENERGY STAR Homes Program -- A Residential New Construction Program For Energy-Efficient Homes BOSTON, June 10 /PRNewswire/ -- A consortium of New England electric utilities in Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Rhode Island announce the launch of the ENERGY STAR Homes Free Certification Program. As part of the national energy efficiency campaign, sponsored by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Department of Energy (DOE), this regional utility initiative is designed to help home builders and buyers design and construct homes that use at least 30% less energy than homes built to present energy codes. For a typical 2,000-sq. ft. home, annual energy costs can be reduced by as much as $800 when built to ENERGY STAR standards. The ENERGY STAR Homes Program offers home buyers and builder free home certification (normally $450), design assistance, ongoing energy consultation, enhanced financing options, and hundreds of dollars of utility rebates for energy efficient products to help facilitate the construction of energy efficient, high performance homes. Rebates are available for efficient lighting fixtures, refrigerators, clothes washers, dishwashers, room air conditioners, and high efficiency heating/cooling equipment. For example, if three of the major household appliances in a new home are Energy Star rated, there is a $500 rebate. These rebates and services are available to anyone who is building a new home in the sponsoring utilities' service territories. The ENERGY STAR Homes Program shows home buyers and builders how to achieve greater energy efficiency for heating, cooling, lighting and appliance operation. These homes are designed, site inspected, and performance tested on the nationally recognized 0-100 HERS point scale. Home energy ratings are conducted by Conservation Services Group, a Boston based non-profit energy services company that has been performaing ratings and providing technical services to increase home energy efficiency since 1984. Perhaps most importantly for home buyers, these homes are more comfortable to live in and have excellent indoor air quality. "Someday ALL homes will be built this way", says Stan Pitchko, a certified ENERGY STAR Homes builder. Environmentally, ENERGY STAR Homes help to reduce the emission of carbon dioxide, sulfur and nitrous oxides, and particulates into our environment. This helps to mitigate global warming and acid rain. Through their ENERGY STAR programs, the EPA expects to save U.S. consumers more than $2 billion by the year 2000, while achieving the environmental equivalent of taking 4 million cars off the road. The ENERGY STAR Homes Program is sponsored by Boston Edison, Blackstone Valley Electric, Eastern Edison, Granite State Electric, Massachusetts Electric, Nantucket Electric, Narragansett Electric, and Newport Electric. For more information on ENERGY STAR Homes free certification call 1-800-628-8413. Both home buyers and builders are encouraged to take advantage of this great opportunity! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 13:01:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25776 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:01:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17705; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:48:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:42:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17251 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:42:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17246 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:42:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa7-p30.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.158]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA26926 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:51:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <358FDB9C.485A6765@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 12:45:16 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: IKEA References: <19980623.104705.6550.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3782 http://www.ikeaair.com/ Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > > GB Listers, > > Does anyone out there know how I can get a copy of the IKEA catalogue? > Do they have a web-site? Thanks for your help. > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > Boca Raton, FL > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 17:51:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA07426 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:51:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA02289; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:37:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:32:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA01911 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:32:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aries.wise.net (aries.wise.net [206.29.198.135]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01902 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:32:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.wise.net (actually host 206.29.198.73) by aries.wise.net with SMTP (XT-PP); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:51:35 -0600 Received: from dotnetgw3-Message_Server by mail3.wise.net with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:48:02 -0600 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 13:45:25 -0600 From: Thomas Hartman To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: d9cat@chesire.net Subject: GBlist: salvage T&G decking Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3783 There is an opportunity to "harvest" some T&G roof decking (2x8x16') from an airplane hanger in NH for $1.50 each. The problem is that there's lead paint on one side and roofing tar on the other. The obvious solution is to scrape off as much as one can, plane the rest, ruin the machine and end up with a pile of nasty waste. Are there any suggestions for how to clean these up for a residential application without exceeding the cost benefit of salvaging? If you are interested in further information regarding this salvage opportunity, please send a message to me directly. There is only about a one week window remaining. As well, can anyone recommend a super efficient residential washer and dryer? Efficiency in both electricity and water usage. The dryer would not be used all the time, mostly during the winter months. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 19:22:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02496 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:21:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05310; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:08:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:04:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05011 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:03:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ci.portland.or.us (pdxnet.ci.portland.or.us [207.109.34.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05007 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 19:03:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linux1.bis.city (root@linux1.bis.city [10.80.1.15]) by ci.portland.or.us (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id QAA94898 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:12:26 -0700 Received: from issd1.bis.city (issd1.bis.city [10.80.1.16]) by linux1.bis.city (8.7.3/8.7.1) with SMTP id QAA07629 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:10:59 -0700 Received: from Portland-Message_Server by issd1.bis.city with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:13:24 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:18:15 -0700 From: Curt Nichols To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Salvage T&G decking, Efficient Washer/Dryer -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3784 Thomas__ Good luck on your salvage project. That doesn't sound like a lot of fun. As for the washer/dryer, there are quite a few efficient options available. The front loader or horizontal axis (or H-axis) washers use much less water and energy. And, they result in less dryer energy use as well because they spin more of the water out before drying. There are a number of european models available -- Asko, Creda, Miele, AEG, etc. Some of the european options offer a machine that will do both; a combined wash-dry machine (or a "clothes processor" as one manufacturer calls it). These are harder to find, but they're sold as Splendide, Kariba, Equator, and Bendix models. However, now that the American manufacturers are serious about producing h-axis washers, most buyers (at least in Oregon) are opting for the Frigidaire (or it's twin the Gibson) and Maytag models. I have the Maytag; a couple of my co-workers have the Frigidaire. The Maytag costs more, but it has a little larger capacity. The Frigidaire has a capacity equal to standard US washers (and slightly larger than the european models). It appears that Frigidaire has put more thought into making their dryer efficient. And, you can stack their dryer on the washer if floor space is a problem. Either way, you should cut your laundry water, sewer, energy, and detergent use by about half. One other note, Frigidaire is offering a factory rebate on their products: $100 for a washer and $50 for a dryer if purchased by July 11th (I think). Hope this helps, Curt Curt Nichols Portland Energy Office ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 21:23:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA11935 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:23:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09213; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:06:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08882 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08878 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 21:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA08504; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:10:50 -0700 Message-ID: <359051DE.FD4597BB@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:09:50 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Thomas Hartman CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, d9cat@chesire.net Subject: Re: GBlist: salvage T&G decking References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3785 This brings up a hell of a concern I've had with salvage materials used in residential construction. The last hundred years (and especially the last 40) have been a chemical free for all with regards to finishing products, fungicides, pesiticides, rodent poisons, bird poisons, cleaning/maintenance products (you name it). Its an ugly heritage and one I think we should literally preserve until we have a clue how to begin a salvage process (without economic incentive). Aside from surface cleaning how are you going to -really- ensure this is a clean product. Sounds like a lot of liability for some minor cost benefit. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Thomas Hartman wrote: > There is an opportunity to "harvest" some T&G roof decking (2x8x16') from an airplane hanger in NH for $1.50 each. The problem is that there's lead paint on one side and roofing tar on the other. The obvious solution is to scrape off as much as one can, plane the rest, ruin the machine and end up with a pile of nasty waste. > > Are there any suggestions for how to clean these up for a residential application without exceeding the cost benefit of salvaging? > > If you are interested in further information regarding this salvage opportunity, please send a message to me directly. There is only about a one week window remaining. > > As well, can anyone recommend a super efficient residential washer and dryer? Efficiency in both electricity and water usage. The dryer would not be used all the time, mostly during the winter months. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 23:00:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA15083 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA13628; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:43:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA13390 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:42:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13386 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:42:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.24] (blf24.acadia.net [205.217.217.24]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA28518 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:51:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:51:52 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Salvage T&G Decking Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3786 John Salmen expressed concern about what is in the decking, and whether it should be reused in another building, due to lead paint and other - perhaps unidentified - hazards. Well yes, ideally. But the boards have a fate, and the molecules will go somewhere. If they boards aren't salvaged, they and the lead will likely end up either in a landfill or an incinerator. Then we might have all kinds of fun with contaminated groundwater, toxic ash, or worse. So perhaps reusing the boards in another structure is the most benign fate that we can practically consider. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 23:24:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA15826 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:24:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14879; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:08:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA14558 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA14554 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:07:53 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id FVBLa26053; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:10:21 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:10:21 EDT To: ashapiro@together.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Green Icynene?? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3787 Hi Andy, Yeah, the price of icynene is crazy. For me the beauty was normal subs for everything else. No special treatments other than energy corners in the exterior wall framing. Though well promoted, I can't believe cellulose is really as tight an air seal as this stuff. It is amazingly well bonded to everything it touches. The problem for me with cellulose is that all the cellulose folks I talk to want me to disrupt the normal flow of trades and inspections to meet their technical needs. All that raises prices and aggrevates all the other trades and the inspectors. There isn't a faster or easier way I have found to build a really tight house than icynene. I'd like any recommendations anyone would have though. As for cellulose installers, we used Tim Harvey, the best insulator around here, until he want back to school to become a well documented energy guru. We've tried several others but haven't had Tony take the four hour drive yet. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 23 23:54:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA16696 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:54:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA15675; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:41:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:37:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA15372 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:37:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA15368 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:37:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 204.96.104.29 (xyp29p19.navix.net [204.96.104.29]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA25441; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:43:34 -0500 Message-ID: <3590361F.4358@navix.net> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 18:11:28 -0500 From: Joyce Coppinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-Navix (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Better, Best Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3788 In reply to David Foley's question about better: It's probably "better" environmentally to work with clients who are already committed to sustainable building but there are fewer clients of this persuasion so financially it might not be "better" -- but on the other hand there are more clients who might come your way who aren't committed to sustainable building and you could benefit "better" financially from them but the world might not be "better" environmentally -- however, you seem to be an articulate, educated, knowledgeable, professional person who's committed to sustainable building, so those clients might be "better" at the end of the project and they might have a "better" project because you guided them, educated them and created something sustainable. If this posting was confusing to read, consider that I used to read Gertrude Stein a lot. Joyce ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 24 08:24:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA28463 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA27539; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:11:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:07:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA27241 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:07:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA27235 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:07:24 -0400 (EDT) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1OUNa22587 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:15:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <7aaf6bc7.3590ede3@aol.com> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 08:15:30 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: spray foam Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3789 In a message dated 98-06-23 23:34:19 EDT, FUnger@aol.com writes: << Though well promoted, I can't believe cellulose is really as tight an air seal as this stuff. It is amazingly well bonded to everything it touches. >> doesn't the cellulose also require an additional vapor barrier ??? closed cell sprayed foam is its own vapor barrier and a good one at that --- saves another operation AND makes drywall installation ALOT easier --- Linda Lloyd GreenShelter ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 24 10:35:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02067 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:35:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03833; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:22:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:18:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03478 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:17:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806241417.KAA03478@solstice.crest.org> From: moxvox@pcisys.net To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 07:04:36 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Choosing clients Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3790 Hi GBers--The question of what it takes to achieve a good architect/designer-client relationship has been on my mind a lot lately too. But I'm going to weigh in here from the client's perspective. Or at least the perspective of an owner-builder (which puts me into that subclass of "hobbyist", according to some on this list). I have some background in building, so I'm not completely new to the field. And I'm probably into the 70% mark on the Ecologically Groovy (EG) scale, so I know what my values are there. So I'm in a subset of the usual building clients, and also of green consumers; talk about your narrow demographics. What I want in a designer, or in any other professional with whom I work for that matter, is what John Abrams said, a willingness to "to craft a successful collaboration." I'm not coming to you as a tabula rasa; neither do I want you to simply stamp my ideas without getting the value of your expertise and experience. I may not know as much as you about what it takes to build something, but I want us to be able to respect each other's input enough to have a conversation--or many--in which all points of view are heard, and understood. A dogmatic client and a prima donna designer are polarizations that don't do anyone much good. The alternate view is that, with the practice of some basic communication skills, everyone's dogma gets put in the pot to stew up a building that wouldn't otherwise have emerged. And this includes the usual professionalism that often disappers with those in construction: returning phone calls, keeping current--and keeping the client current--with projects, adhering to some semblance of a time frame. Those are techniques that are valuable no matter how green the client. And they go a long way toward being able to "teach without teaching" if you choose to work with someone who isn't yet as EG as you...........Sara. Sara Mock Earth teach me moxvox@pcisys.net to remember kindness www.moxvox.com/straw.html as dry fields weep with rain. /\ _____----------------^^^/\/ /\^^^^^----____________________ Ute prayer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 24 10:48:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02402 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:48:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04449; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:34:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:31:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04167 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:30:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806241430.KAA04167@solstice.crest.org> From: "Lane J. Beougher" To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Choosing Clients Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 09:25:13 -0400 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3791 David, I am happy that you are successful enough to be choosing your clients. We take the approach that while we are working to give our clients what they want in terms of program, they are trusting us to handle design issues, product selections, energy decisions, etc., because of our expertise in these areas. We try to educate our clients to the issues and ideas that will make their project better. I believe that every life we touch, whether from the standpoint of designers, builders, etc., can be enhanced by the experience. You can't expect to talk a developer into building a green building unless you can show him the economic benefits. If we can move people a little closer toward a sustainable future, then we can make a difference. This doesn't only go for clients. Become involved in decisions of your local government. Try to talk them out of expanding the city limits to absorb prime farmland, and show them how to redevelop already existing, and sometimes failing, communit! ies. I think it would be great if all of our clients wanted to build in the way that we think is ecologically correct. This is not, as you know, a perfect world. If we can bring everyone we meet a little closer to the light, then maybe we can sleep at night. Lane J. Beougher lbeougher@bsa-net.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 24 11:07:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03092 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:07:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05282; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:54:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:50:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04952 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:50:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04947 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:50:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26438; Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:31:06 -0600 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 22:31:04 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Richard Kadulski Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: CO2 released by wood burning In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3792 Richard: I have not thoroughly considered all the implications of a tree lot on our property to negate our CO2 debit during house construction material manufacturing and building operation. Before doing calculations, and specifying particular tree species, I would like to know more about the CO2 sequestering from our urban agriculture and aquaculture, which we already have. How much CO2 will be absorped by all our vegetables, berries, fruits and pond life? Perhaps a 25 year CO2 mortgage may not be bad considering we built the house to last much longer than the standard life cycle. If we did not have enough CO2 absorption from indoor and outdoor plants, concrete and so forth, we may have to plant some trees or ask the city to plant more in the adjacent park (not in front of our south side). Trees would definitely have an impact on one neighbour (block a mountain view and west sun (to their advantage in the summer?). Jorg Ostrowski On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Richard Kadulski wrote: > > > > Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 06:39:57 -0700 (MST) > > From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" > > Subject: Re: GBlist: CO2 released by wood burning > > > >. Although no calculations have been > > done, nor any tree planting, we hope to plant enough tree on our > > suburban site to make our project a net C02 reducer, so that over a > period > > of 10 or 20 years we may be able to reduce more C02 from the atmosphere > > that was produced in a "craddle to grave" scenario for our building > > project and its operation. That is why we are also looking for reliable > > landscaping info on how much C02 can be sequestered by different trees of > > different ages. > > > > Jorg, have you considered the impact that planting trees on your lot will > have on your neighbours? > On the one hand the trees will offer shelter (as windbreaks) which in your > climate and location would be beneficial, and provide a CO2 sink. But on > the one hand while the trees may offer one solution, they may restrict > solar access to neighbours. Even during winter, some tree types offer > significant shading. > > Have you decided yet how you are planning to evaluate some of these > conflicting issues? > > I don't mean to suggest that I'm not in favour of trees, but I'd thought it > worth raising the issue. As so much else, it seems it all comes down to > which compromises do you make. > > > ******************************** > Richard Kadulski Architect > 208 - 1280 Seymour St. Vancouver BC V6B 3N9 > Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 > "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." > Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, > building science & construction practice > ****************************** > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 24 11:41:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04175 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:41:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07861; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:28:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:24:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07263 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:23:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gosip.net.state.oh.us (gosip.net.ohio.gov [156.63.130.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07246 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:23:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from odod.ohio.gov ([156.63.76.2]) by gosip.net.ohio.gov (PMDF V5.1-10 #26925) with SMTP id <01IYM31N1W1C000RVG@gosip.net.ohio.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:32:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by odod.ohio.gov; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:33:32 -0400 X-Incognito-format: VERSION=2.01 ENCRYPTED=NO X-Incognito-SN: 1231 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 11:33:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "Sherebanu A. Frosh" Subject: GBlist: Green Manufacturers/ Professionals in Ohio To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3793 Hi - I'm trying to create a database consisting of anyone dealing with energy efficiency (eg. builders, architects, manufacturers of insulating products, ESCOs etc.) in the state of Ohio. Are there any databases which can be searched for one or more of these types of entities specifically within Ohio? -Thanks- Sherry Frosh, Intern Ohio Department of Development, Office of Energy Efficiency Ph: (614) 466-7367/ Fax: (614) 466-1864 sfrosh@odod.ohio.gov ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 24 13:40:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA07973 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:40:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14641; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:27:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:22:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14160 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:21:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14151 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:21:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on5-24.netcom.ca [207.181.91.88]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00164 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:29:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199806241729.NAA00164@tor-smtp1.netcom.ca> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 12:22:26 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Norbert Senf Subject: GBlist: Re: CO2 released by wood burning In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA14152 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3794 A worthy contribution to the discussion of woodburning, forestry management, and carbon sequestration has been made in a paper by John Gulland and Dr. Ole Q. Hendrickson, "Residential Wood Heating: the Forest, the Atmosphere and the Public Consciousness", available at http://www.wood-heat.com/forest.htm John also recently sent the following very interesting email: -----------message separator--------------------------------------- Subject: Environmental tax shifting appears on radar Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 08:42:49 -0400 Hi, When I first read Paul Hawken's 1993 book, The Ecology of Commerce, in which he proposed a shift of tax burden from payroll or personal income towards pollution in the form of greenhouse gas emissions and other environmental toxins, I was struck by the elegant simplicity and unassailable logic of the concept and wondered why it never seemed to come up in the mainstream media. I had suspicions, though. Probably the biggest single component of the environmental tax would be on the carbon content of fossil fuels, with the highest charge being on coal, less on oil and less still on gas, based on each fuel's carbon content. The implementation of a significant tax shift toward fuel carbon content would have an enormous impact on energy use patterns. The energy efficiency of heating and hearth systems would rise to become the primary purchase criteria, and renewables like wood and pellets would become the darlings of the post-fossil fuel binge era. I seem to recall something similar happening about 20 years ago. Last year I found that Minnesotans for an Energy Efficient Economy (me3) had done a lot of economic analysis of tax shifting and were prompting the state government to adopt a piece of legislation enabling a big tax shift http://www.me3.org/ But still, environmental tax shifting had not made it into the mainstream discourse — until now. Following is a press release I received yesterday that I thought you might find interesting. ============================= Americans Want Higher Taxes on Pollution to Lower Other Taxes, According to New Survey Washington, D.C. -- American voters want tax reform that shifts taxes away from payrolls and income and towards polluting energy sources such as coal, gasoline and diesel, according to a national survey released today. The telephone survey, commissioned by the national environmental organization Friends of the Earth, found that more than 2 out of 3 voters surveyed favored environmental tax shifting as a way to reform the U.S. tax system."Voters want a fairer tax system that discourages pollution, encourages energy efficiency and funds tax cuts on labor and income," said Brian Dunkiel, director of tax policy and staff attorney at Friends of the Earth. "An environmental tax shift would simultaneously clean our environment, encourage a stronger economy and build more fairness into the tax system." Voters Would Support Environmental Tax Shift More than 70 percent of the respondents, representing a cross-section of Republican, Democrat and Independent voters, supported an increase in taxes on energy sources that pollute the environment, using those revenues to reduce existing taxes on payrolls and income. Respondents also supported a tax on air and water pollution, voicing slightly more support for this type of environmental "sin tax" than for taxes on cigarettes or liquor. The survey was conducted by International Communications Research of Media, PA, from May 29- June 2, 1998 among a sample of 500+registered U.S. voters and has a +/- 4% margin of error. "What these survey results show is that the sensibility of environmental tax shifting appeals to voters," said Dunkiel. New Guidebook on Green Tax Reform Released ------------------------------------------ Friends of the Earth today also released a report, Citizens' Guide to Environmental Tax Shifting, which provides taxpayers with information about how the tax system can be harnessed to enhance both the economy and the environment. By using the principles of fair taxation, the Citizens' guide compares environmental tax shifting to other tax reform proposals such as a flat tax and national sales tax. To receive the report, call Friends of the Earth at 202-783-7400. Businessperson and author Paul Hawken writes an introduction for the report in which he points out that basic economics tells us that the more something is taxed, the less we get of it. Yet, the majority of U.S. taxes fall on things Americans want to increase, such as individual income, payroll and corporate income. A closer look shows that more than half of all tax revenues are raised with taxes on income either through the payroll tax or the individual income tax. In fact, the payroll tax is the fastest-growing of all major taxes. According to government figures, between 1970 and 1992, the tax payment for a worker jumped from $374 to $5,329, an increase of 1,325 percent. The report shows that environmental tax shifting has been gaining strength among opinion-makers and policy groups. For example, environmental tax shifting was endorsed in 1996 as a policy recommendation by the President's Council on Sustainable Development, which was signed by a diversity of parties including the leaders of Dow Chemical Company, Chevron, General Motors, Enron, AFL-CIO and the Sierra Club. Friends of the Earth is working with state and national legislators to develop tax reform that furthers environmental protections, energy efficiency, renewable forms of power and environmental technology. "Tax shifting would be a win-win situation for the workforce and business. It cuts across political lines to make taxes work for all of us, helping to reduce cancer-causing toxic substances and clean up our rivers and streams," said Dunkiel. Founded in 1969, Friends of the Earth is a national environmental advocacy organization with affiliates in 58 countries. From: NEWS RELEASE 10 a.m., Wednesday, June 17, 1998 Contact: Lynn Erskine 202-783-7400 x255 Brian Dunkiel 802-862-1706 ========================== end ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 24 15:28:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA11884 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:28:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23723; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:15:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:10:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA23238 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:10:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23233 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DGJHAZW9; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:17:45 EDT To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 15:23:19 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Junkers Message-ID: <19980624.152322.6526.4.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-8 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3795 David, Recently you suggested using the Junkers floating wood floor on a slab. You neglected to mention how to contact Junkers. Could you provide this information, please. Thank you. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 24 17:06:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15493 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00431; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:53:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:48:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA29776 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:48:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29768 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:48:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from calloway (user-37kbabq.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.169.122]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA08437 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:57:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980624170152.0079b790@mindspring.com> X-Sender: ecovillage@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:01:54 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: horizons Subject: GBlist: SB WORK OPPORTUNITY! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA29773 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3796 STRAW BALE HOME CONSTRUCTION UNDERWAY AT HORIZONS ECOVILLAGE, NELSON CO., VA !!! Horizons ecoVillage is an ecovillage forming on 500 acres of land in Nelson County, Virginia (near Wintergreen, 35 minutes SW of Charlottesville and the University of Virginia)-- an earth-conscious"intentional neighborhood" where respect and protection for the environment and all its inhabitants is of primary importance. The residential section of the village (45 privately owned homesteads—39 of which have sold in the first year and a half!) has been a tremendous success. Now we are getting the business/village section underway. Our current projects include: ----- an earth-spirit camp ground: 95 sites, each approximately 100 ft apart, mixed between cabins/tents and, yes, RVs need love too ----- conference/workshop retreat facilities for approximately 100, focusing on earth spirit activities such as nature awareness, ropes courses, survival skills (ala Tom Brown), sustainable building, solar energy, vision quests and other meditative mother earth respecting practices ----- a natural foods café ----- a natural foods store ----- a "now age" general store ----- an organic/biodynamic farm… CURRENT WORK OPPORTUNITIES: --- MODEL ecoHOME construction underway. We are building a low-cost, earth-conscious Model ecoHome (post and beam, straw bale, living roof, passive solar, PV, solar radiant floor, not a single right angle in the place) emphasizing low cost indigenous/recycled materials and renewable energy sources. We welcome help from anyone interested in learning more about "alternative" building. Housing available. BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES: ----- ORGANIC/BIODYNAMIC Farmer wanted. Fertile land available… we are looking for someone to lease/own/manage our organic/biodynamic farm and provide Community Supported Agriculture for Horizons Village residents and sell/provide produce to the campground/retreat/workshop participants and the local community. ----- We are also looking for persons interested owning/managing our Natural Foods Café and our "now age" general store (which will sell everything from PV panels to tofu to crafts). ----- We are preleasing space in the retreat/workshop facilities, some of which will be on an annual timeshare basis We would love to hear from you!! For more information, call us at: 804-361-1212. You can also visit our (developing) web site at: http://ecovillage.home.mindspring.com or email ecovillage@mindspring.com. ************************************************************ Horizons ecoVillage is unfolding on 500 acres o fland in Nelson County, VA: an earth-conscious neighborhood where children, families, businesses and spirits can explore and grow in a beautiful, safe and natural setting. P.O. Box 310, Nellysford, VA 22958 804-361-1212 fax: 804-361-2111 email: ecovillage@mindspring.com http://www.horizons-ecovillage.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 24 17:08:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15584 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:08:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00796; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:51:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00037 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:50:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (wfntnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.37.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00031 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:50:51 -0400 (EDT) From: walshj@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8525662D.0072B933 ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:53:05 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: Greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <8525662D.0070CD0E.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:00:22 -0400 Subject: Re: GBlist: spray foam Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3797 Linda Lloyd wrote "doesn't the cellulose also require an additional vapor barrier ??? closed cell sprayed foam is its own vapor barrier and a good one at that --- saves another operation AND makes drywall installation ALOT easier" --- The perm rating from Icynene literature is 15.0 for 3" and 10.0 for 5" with a R-value of 3.6 per inch. One contractors literature also states that the product is a "manufactured from an organic material developed from products of the petrochemical industry"???? Here in Massachusetts, the building code for new construction requires a vapor barrier of 1.0 or less. Building inspectors are therefore requiring the installation of a vapor barrier in addition to the Icynene. We have inspected one new home that used the product and were impressed with the air sealing quality of the material. Our concern is for moisture to migrate to and condense on framing members without the use of a continuous vapor barrier. John Walsh Energy Crafted Home Program Western Massachusetts Electric CO 413.787.9105 .M.E.CO____________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 24 17:09:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15613 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:09:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00910; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:56:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:51:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00135 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:51:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00128 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:51:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id QAA0000012040; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:00:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980624210309.00703b90@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 16:03:09 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: A client's choice Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3798 Although I've built a few houses and project managed commercial construction, I am now an owner builder and a 'client' as well. My experience as a client is much more limited than the other but from that perspective, I find there are precious few out there who know much about energy efficient building however you describe it. In general the professional schools hardly touch the subject and in this area, even the best builders say 2x6 construction isn't worth the extra money it costs. I don't know as much about green building as do most on this list, but I find it's a heck of a lot more than most anyone around here. Most architects in this area roll back their eyes and look bored if you want to talk about the subject, saying their clients just aren't interested. We do have one architect whose bread and butter is the energy efficient specs he writes for government work. But, even though he is an expert on many aspects of energy efficient building, I suspect his portfolio is pretty bare of clients who want a green house. Too many remember the 70s when less was known about the how-tos and too many expensive mistakes were made. All of us are familiar with the active solar collectors that were abandoned even by their most ardent supporters. So, when we decided to build a special house, we looked for someone who might respond to our interest that is concomitant with green, ie a distinctive place where we can listen to the earth, a house that has spaces in which we would like to be every time we walk in. We found someone who seemed attuned to our ideas but who admits she knows little about energy efficiency. Now we're looking for someone who would consult with us on that aspect of the design. We find however that it's an awkward relationship to try to cobble together. And there are darned few professionals around here who even qualify. I suspect the most important thing about an architect/client relationship is just that, the relationship. I look for someone who is professional AND authoritative but who also tunes in to this world at about the same place as I do. On the other hand I can easily see how it would be possible to work with a client who doesn't care about building green but be able to persuade them of the wisdom of doing so. And of course there are also several known instances where the architect simply slipped in green 'better' ways of detailing about which the client wasn't even aware. For most people though, building a house is a process, and there is no reason why, through that effort, one can't become better educated at the same time. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 24 18:20:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA17990 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:20:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA04607; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:00:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03787 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:00:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from essential.essential.org (essential.org [198.4.52.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03783 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:00:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from essential.org (meghan.essential.org [198.4.52.7]) by essential.essential.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05792; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:12:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35917B42.578D905@essential.org> Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:18:43 -0400 From: Meghan Clancy-Hepburn Reply-To: mch@essential.org Organization: resource conservation alliance X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: arlist , greenbuilding list , pulp paper list , dogwood listserve Subject: GBlist: upcoming agricultural fiber meeting Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3799 Below you will find some information about an event called Ag Fiber '98, to be held Aug. 20-21 at the Agricenter International in Memphis. I am forwarding it to various listserve because I believe it will be of interest to some subscribers. If you would like more information, please call the phone number for Agro-Tech Innovations (listed below), and not my number, as I currently have no other info about this event. This two day event will feature a one day seminar featuring these keynote speakers: Representative Kathryn Bowers, the Vice-Chairman of the Tennessee House of Representatives Agriculture Committee; and Jeffrey W. Gain, former CEO of the National Corn Growers Association. The event will highlight processors, researchers, and marketers of sustainable agricultural fibers and innovative technologies. Special focus will be given to the development of agricultural fibers for paper, non-wovens, and building materials. Sustainable production techniques and soil health technologies will also be presented. The second day of the event will feature a field day on the Agricenter International farm and area farms. The field day will include observation of kenaf trial plots presented in conjunction with Agricenter International and Industrial AG Innovations, Inc. of Poplar Bluff, Missouri. Other highlights of the field day will include production information and tours of new cotton varieties. The Agricenter International is the host for this event. The 1,000 acre non-profit facility is located at the edge of Memphis, Tennessee and is perfectly placed to carry out its mission statement. "To improve the efficiency and effectiveness of agri-industry by providing a showcase for technologies developed by public and private entities." Agricenter International is home to most of the federal, state, and county agencies that serve the area's farmers. This exciting event is sponsored in part by: Alternative Agriculture Research Corporation, USDA, Fiber Futures, Industrial AG Innovations, Inc., Mid-South Fiber Network, and Peerless Printing Company. The AG Fiber 98' Technology Showcase is organized by Agro-Tech Communications, publishers of Mid South Fiber Network. For more information contact: Agro-Tech Communications 7344 Raleigh Lagrange Rd. Cordova, TN 38018 Ph: (901) 757-1777 Fax: (901) 937-7884 E-Mail: fiber@netten.net Kenaf - Pulp & Paper - Information - Raw Materials for Industry - Fiber Farming - Internet - New Crops & New Uses - Agricultural Residues & Straw - Cotton - Non-Woven & Woven Textiles - Technology - Rural Economic Development - Value-Added Agriculture - Industrial Hemp - Investment Strategies - Fiber - Flax - Precision Agriculture - Research - Production & Processing - Building Materials - Marketing -- Meghan Clancy-Hepburn Campaigns Director Resource Conservation Alliance P.O. Box 19367 Washington, DC 20036 tel: 202.387.8030 fax: 202.234.5176 email: mch@essential.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 24 18:55:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA18967 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:55:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09180; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:41:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:37:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08268 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:37:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08260 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:37:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA11952 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 17:45:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md11-27.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.155) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma011931; Wed Jun 24 17:45:43 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980624184416.03291bd0@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:44:18 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: New England Utilities & Energy STAR Homes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3800 Some Feedback on Press Release: New England Utilities Launch EPA's ENERGY STAR Homes Program -- A Residential New Construction Program For Energy-Efficient Homes BOSTON, June 10 /PRNewswire/ -- A consortium of New England electric utilities in Massachusetts, New Hampshire and Rhode Island announce the launch of the ENERGY STAR Homes Free Certification Program. (( etc., snip )) ------------------------ Bion Howard Comments: As one of the early developers of Energy STAR Homes program for US EPA, I applaud the decision of utilities to undertake this useful implementation of energy efficiency in residential buildings. New England builders are getting a good deal on this one, since they do not have to pay any fees to get major program imprimatur, and then can market the E* homes for higher prices. This could form the basis of a model program for utility adoption elsewhere in the country. The utilities are providing a facilitation of the marketplace rather than a rebate, which as in the BG&E experience can set up a "double-dipping" phenomenon (where builders scarf up the rebates, AND charge more for the homes to consumers wanting energy efficiency), and helps prevents a dis-incentive due to the extra cost of entry to the program should consumers face an evaluation charge at closing, or embedded somehow in their mortgage. The utilities also get a reasonable initial verification of performance that the homes may be significantly better that levels in the International Energy-conservation Code (formerly CABO-MEC), due to the ratings. Additional study will be needed to see if Energy STAR Homes improvement measures provide persistent savings. However for a per home investment of under $500 -- often the first year savings for a full size single family Energy STAR Home -- even depressed long term fuel savings will provide positive returns to utilities who can avoid building new expensive power plants. Many utilities used to pay direct rebates to builders in the range of $1,000 to over $2,500 depending on location and program design. However well meaning such programs are, building scientists need to be concerned about keeping the criteria technically robust, lest energy efficiency become another feature buried in "green wash." It is well these program homes appear to be slated for individual evaluation, however builders are pushing for more "mass build" evaluations so they may cut adoption costs in these types of programs. EEBA is currently completing a project studying the process of residential energy-efficiency performance assessment including home energy rating systems (HERS). EEBA will be making recommendations to help improve the efficacy and reliability of these types of programs dependent upon ratings and certifications of energy efficiency. This is very important to lenders seeking to back EEM programs, where monthly energy saving cash-flows permit consumers to qualify for a better packages of features rolled into their mortgages. One day we hope getting "proven performance" for energy efficiency in a new home will be no more complicated than obtaining a survey or a termite inspection. A paper on the project findings is expected to be presented at the 16th "Excellence in Building" Conference of EEBA, this Fall in Washington, DC. More information on this EEBA conference, and a secure electronic form for early bird registration is available online at: | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jun 24 20:24:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA21409 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12885; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:11:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:07:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12607 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:07:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV (dcsmtp.wictok7.epa.gov [161.80.160.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12603 for ; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:07:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:55:33 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 13:46:22 -0400 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Salvage - A short story Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3801 A 16-story luxury condominium is being built a few blocks from my house. Across the street the developer built a sales office and model, approximately 3500 square feet, I would guess. It was a pretty straightforward slab on grade, single story house, with two models plus space for the sales office and other sales materials. On Monday morning I walked past, and they were destroying it. There was a huge pile of rubble and a tractor. By Monday evening it was gone, and the lot had been graded flat. I was very disturbed. The structure had been there for well less than a year, and as far as I could tell, a substantial amount of perfectly useful building materials were just thrown out. I wonder if this is a common practice? If the condo building is worth $60 - $100 million, do they care about spending $200,000 to build and destroy a sales office? Could it have been built with some sort of modular or component-type design, so that it could be disassembled and parts used elsewhere? Maybe they could have even allowed local non-profits to come in and salvage what they wanted first? I suspect they did save some things for use in the actual units themselves, such as countertops and appliances (probably the windows, too--I didn't see any in the pile). I didn't really investigate that carefully. I am tempted to send the developer a letter, and would be interested in some of your comments on what I might suggest. (Interestingly, my wife was also troubled without being prompted--maybe my environmental leanings are starting to wear off!) Steve O. _________________________ Contact Information Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html _________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 25 07:28:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA07657 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:28:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA29251; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:14:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:10:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA29010 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:10:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA29000 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 07:10:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40226; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 05:18:14 -0600 Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 05:18:13 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: STEPHEN OFFUTT Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Salvage - A short story In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3802 You said: "I am tempted to send the developer a letter, and would be interested in some of your comments on what I might suggest." ________________________________________________________________________ Steve: Phone them first and discuss. Offer them your consulting services to save them money. They could have market leverage by demonstrating prudent use of materials and proactive design/construction by allowing environmentally progressive material selection/fuel choices for progressive clients. Follow-up with a letter. Put your combined talents and astute observation (common sense) to use. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 25 08:42:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA09429 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:42:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01112; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:27:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:24:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00876 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00872 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:23:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA59162; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 06:31:11 -0600 Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 06:31:11 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "David M. Foley" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: reused wood/ green clients In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3803 You said:" But the boards have a fate, and the molecules will go somewhere." ____________________________________________________________________________ David: Over the years we have used significant amounts of reused lumber (and many other building components) from grain elevators, schools, old homes, a bakery and a distillery, without any detrimental side effects as far as we know. In our own home/office we also used a significant amount of reused items (we presented a paper on this last October). Although kinesiology indicated the wood from the distillery was not appropriate for environmentally hypersensitve people, we used it anyway. One of the framers took cut-offs home and burned them in his fireplace returning the next day with the bad news. "Your house is going to smell like a bar!" We then set out to devise a strategy to deal with a potentially serious indoor air problem. The reuse of wood had been to help the environment, not create problems. In the end, the problem seemed to evaporate. The chemically sensitive who have toured our place had no reaction at all and some who arrived with masks, took them off once inside the house. In the end: "the boards did have a fate, and the molecules did go somewhere". Aout clients: Since 1976 we have screened all clients according to our interests and mission. Since we do not want to be a party to obsolete construction, we refuse to get involved in anything that is not healthy and sustainable. There are too many out their that can do that type of efffort. When I leave the planet I want to be able to say: I have tried very hard to do my best and hopefully have made a little different in the right direction. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, David M. Foley wrote: > John Salmen expressed concern about what is in the decking, and whether it > should be reused in another building, due to lead paint and other - perhaps > unidentified - hazards. > > Well yes, ideally. But the boards have a fate, and the molecules will go > somewhere. If they boards aren't salvaged, they and the lead will likely > end up either in a landfill or an incinerator. Then we might have all > kinds of fun with contaminated groundwater, toxic ash, or worse. > > So perhaps reusing the boards in another structure is the most benign fate > that we can practically consider. > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 25 08:51:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA09700 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:51:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01499; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:38:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:35:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01285 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:34:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from CLEMSON.EDU (mail.clemson.edu [130.127.28.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01281 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:34:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cdewitt.clemson.edu ([206.240.183.38]) by CLEMSON.EDU (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA13323 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:43:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980625084344.007fa100@mail.clemson.edu> X-Sender: cdewitt@mail.clemson.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:43:44 -0400 To: Greenbuilding@crest.org From: Craig DeWitt Subject: GBlist: additional vapor barrier Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3804 John said: "Here in Massachusetts, the building code for new construction requires a vapor barrier of 1.0 or less. Building inspectors are therefore requiring the installation of a vapor barrier in addition to the Icynene. We have inspected one new home that used the product and were impressed with the air sealing quality of the material. Our concern is for moisture to migrate to and condense on framing members without the use of a continuous vapor barrier." >From what I see, we're a little off target. According to some research (I think done by CMHC), the vapor diffusion through a 10 sq ft of sheetrock without a vapor "barrier" is about 2/3 pint per heating season, while the vapor movement through and around an unsealed electrical outlet box can be around 50 pints per season. One possible conclusion is that vapor diffusion through a surface potentially protected by a vapor barrier is not what is causing inner-wall condensation problems. Rather it is the air movement through penetrations and leaks in the wall. Air sealing, via contributions from Icynene, dense pack cellulose, caulking, gasketing or whatever, will make more of a difference that a poly vapor barrier, especially one that is left unsealed around electric boxes, windows, doors and other openings as I often see them. Stop the air flow, and don't worry so much about difussion. If you have a true _continuous_ vapor barrier, you also should have a good air barrier. Which function is really preventing condensation problems? Craig ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 25 11:04:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA15442 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:04:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07546; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:50:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:46:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07224 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07219 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:46:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA26782 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 09:55:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md11-43.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.171) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma026760; Thu Jun 25 09:54:51 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980625105324.032e224c@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:53:26 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Termite Control concept Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3805 Termite Control concept / "TermiMesh" Does anyone know about the Austrailian "TermiMesh" system, like whether it has been approved anywhere in the US under local codes? A description may be found on their website: Sounds interesting and looks expensive. Also, embodied energy of stainless steel, and the fabrication energy of pulling such a fine mesh present issues. Any more thoughts before I get excited? | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 25 11:49:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17836 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10389; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:36:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:32:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09857 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:32:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09837 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:32:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA02732 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:40:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md11-43.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.171) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma002677; Thu Jun 25 10:39:53 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980625113827.0071b440@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:38:29 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: global warming wakeup call Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3806 NOAA update on Global Warming -- wake up call !!! ----------------- for subscription info: Jim Minter, editor -- Florida Sustainable Communities Center > e design Online | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 25 14:17:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23542 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:17:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18166; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 14:04:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:59:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17807 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exempla.org (lmcf.exempla.org [170.188.5.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17803 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:59:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lmcf.exempla.org id <41217>; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:09:39 -0600 Message-Id: <98Jun25.120939mdt.41217@lmcf.exempla.org> X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:08:17 -0600 From: Bruce Rippe To: greenbuilding@crest.org, a-mskowr@microsoft.com Subject: GBlist: We need an energy effecient greenhouse -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3807 Hello Michael, For the kind of big greenhouse project which you are proposing, you might want to take a look at the "Solviva" greenhouse design and operation on Martha's Vineyard. Anna Edey and her numerous friends on that project have designed, built and demonstrated a remarkable, in my opinion, work of art/functional greenhouse using only passive solar energy and supplemental heat provided by the Btu's of chickens and rabbits whose own habitat is integrated into the greenhouse. She has recently published a book which provides the story and details of this project. The book has a good section of photos and information regarding how to obtain more detailed design specs. This may be the kind of greenhouse design that could be adapted to your own needs and bioregion in Arizona. The e-mail address is: solviva@vineyard.net Let us gblist folks hear how your project turns out. Good luck, Bruce ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jun 25 18:41:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04059 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:41:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02573; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:28:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:22:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02098 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:22:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02094 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA12-p34.dreamscape.com [209.4.255.34]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA08132 for ; Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:31:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3592CE50.D8B74913@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 18:25:20 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: delete-High tech erasing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3808 For those members who don't cross yourselves at the mention of HIGH TECH (here you need to insert a mental image of the whirlpool from the Mel Brook's movie High Anxiety), an interesting news bite. ________________________________________________________________________ Make a Dozen Un-Copies, Please Wired News Report 12:45pm 25.Jun.98.PDT Wow. Disappearing ink. That's essentially the idea behind "Decopier," a device that Imagex Technologies plans to market by the end of the year. You take a piece of paper that has ink printed on it, shove it into Decopier, and presto! It emerges crisp and white and ready to be used again. The Framingham, Massachusetts, company says that Decopier will remove the toner used to form the images on the page and turn out a blank piece of reusable paper. Paper will survive this process up to five times, said Sushil Bhatia, Imagex president. A transparency can be recycled up to 10 times. Bhatia says the process takes care of confidentiality and wasted paper in one fell swoop. "A sheet of paper or a transparency goes in and a [formula] is applied to the document and softens up the toner," Bhatia explained. The toner rises to the surface along with the formula and is wiped away before the paper is dried. The special formula is contained in a replaceable cartridge, similar to a toner cartridge, and is nontoxic and environmentally safe, the company said. The first model of the Decopier will cost a whopping US$45,000, but Imagex estimates that companies using 1,000 sheets of paper a day will recover that cost in about 18 months. Bhatia also said a less expensive machine is under development, along with plans to market Decopiers to copy centers such as Kinkos and Sir Speedy. "The [originating] idea was the security of documents and all the paper being wasted," he said. "How could we take care of confidential information and save paper at the same time?" The Decopier, he hopes, will be an attractive answer to corporate America. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jun 26 10:23:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02528 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:23:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28771; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:10:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:05:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28249 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:05:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bminet.bminet.com (root@console.bminet.com [207.170.27.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28245 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:05:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from clearned.bminet.com (dial166.bminet.com [207.170.27.166]) by bminet.bminet.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA06112 for ; Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:03:48 -0500 Message-Id: <199806261503.KAA06112@bminet.bminet.com> From: "Chuck Learned" To: Subject: GBlist: Wisconsin Based Natural building group forming Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 09:07:04 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3809 Announcing the kickoff of a new regional learning group. I have been growing wearing of flying to distant states with different climates to learn how to build these wonderful homes. So I have embraced an American Icon "Get Organized". If you can travel once a month to the wonderful city of Madison WI you can attend our monthly meetings. We will also be setting up work bees. Since our first meeting is this Sunday, things are pretty loose, informal etc. One of the things we would like to see happen as well is develop a good pool of skilled professionals who enjoy working with owner builders, so if you are one of those folks and Wisconsin sounds doable give me a call. Here's the official blurb....... You are invited to the first Natural Building Learning Group mtg. You have received this as you at sometime must have expressed an interest in alternative building. A new group is forming for people interested in learning together and supporting each other in building ecologically sound natural homes. At this point the group will meet once a month to share knowledge, enthusiasm, plans, dreams and collective knowledge or ignorance! The intent is to focus on Natural Building methods as they can provide answers to difficult environmental challenges and they are wonderful to live in. Home construction styles such as: Strawbale Homes*Earthen Homes(Cob & Underground or bermed) Cordwood Homes will be the learning material as well as support systems such as water, sewage, energy etc. The unique potential in these homes lies in the potential for low cost construction due to owner labor and the potential availability for building materials directly available from the land. These type of homes also lend themselves accessible for inexperienced owner builders and community style work bees. Taking the step to actually building your own home can be intimidating, confusing and lonely. Potential exists to: *Bring in guest speakers *Arrange tours of existing homes *Have ongoing Email discussions*Assist each other with building efforts at strategic moments*Work to collectively educate ourselves and professionals(Building Inspectors and trade professionals who may be assisting our efforts) * Sponsor hands on learning workshops *Share building materials and tools *Keep our sanity, marriages, families and friends intact(grinning). *Serve as a connecting point for trade building professionals sympathetic to Natural *Building and owner builders. *Your ideas................ You do not need to be an owner builder to be involved you just need to be interested. Our first meeting is on June 28th (Sunday) from 3:30 -6pm. in Madison (directions below) We will be showing a terrific video called Build your own Elegant Straw Bale Home. A wonderful person Linda has offered up her big living room, give us an RSVP even if its last minute. Contact: Chuck Learned 608 423-3031 or clearned@bminet.com Directions: Ridge Road is 10 blocks South of University Ave off of Franklin Avenue. Note that there is also a Ridge Street in the same neighborhood, but these streets do not join. >From downtown Madison: Go west on University Avenue through the stoplight at Farley and University. (University Hospital is to the right and Sunporch and Goodwill are to the left). Turn left on Franklin Avenue (this is a T-intersection). U-pump gas station is on the South west corner of Franklin and University. Stay on Franklin for 10 blocks until reach top of hill - cemetery will be on the left, turn right on Ridge Rd. to 2811. >From the west Beltline: Midvale Blvd exit - north to right on Mineral Point. After about 6 blocks turn left on Franklin Ave. Golf course is on the right. Franklin ave is between the Stop and Go and the funeral home. Proceede on Franklin for about 4 blocks to top of hill - left on Ridge Rd to 2811. If you are lost call 608 233-7500 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 29 15:49:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13912 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:49:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20145; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:34:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:27:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA19630 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19619 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:27:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Jsailer@aol.com Received: from Jsailer@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1IUVa11436 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:35:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <92b97e23.3597ec7d@aol.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:35:23 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Looking for European architecture firm Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3810 We recently received a request for a "European or German based architectural firm that did a highrise project with nearly 100% green or recycled materials." The person who made the request is not on this mailing list, but their information follows: Chuck Crane ALSC Architects 203 N. Washington St., Suite 400 Spokane, WA 99201-0224 --John Sailer Publisher/Editor Environmental Design & Construction ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jun 29 22:54:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA01435 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:54:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA11726; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:36:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA11426 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA11422 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.22] (blf22.acadia.net [205.217.217.22]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA23532 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:44:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:44:46 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Junkers Flooring Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3811 Dear Beverly (and others), Sorry for the slow response. Junkers floating wood flooring is distributed in the United States by CPN, Inc., 705 Moore Industrial Park, Prospect Park, PA 19076, tel. 800-437-3232, fax 610-534-1289. The parent company is Junkers Industrier A/S, DK-4600 Koege, Denmark. Hope this helps. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 30 10:27:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22878 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00522; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:13:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:08:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29929 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seinfeld.arrowstreet.com (root@seinfeld.arrowstreet.com [207.244.75.194]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29922 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from arrowstreet.com (snowwhite.arrowstreet.com [192.168.1.2]) by seinfeld.arrowstreet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA04841 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 09:14:47 -0400 Received: from ARROWSTREET-Message_Server by arrowstreet.com with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:15:57 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:15:16 -0400 From: Tony Vogel To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Looking for methods to handle Solar Gain for Office Buildings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3812 For a commercial office project in New England with a large (7-8 story) southeast facing elevation with setbacks, I would appreciate suggestions in dealing with the huge solar gain. The client is "interested" in Sustainable Design, but only to the extent that any first cost premiums will be recovered in a moderate payback period. Information on integrated approaches involving light shelves, interior and exterior shading and mechanical system ducting would be particularly helpful. I am particularly interested in case studies, schematic details, and precedent buildings which have dealt successfully with this problem. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 30 11:03:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23903 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:03:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02320; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:42:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:39:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01947 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:38:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.state.vt.us (mail.state.vt.us [170.222.64.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01943 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:38:46 -0400 (EDT) From: mrogers@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us Received: from vdhvax ([159.105.135.2]) by mail.state.vt.us (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-44988U13000L13000S0) with SMTP id AAA160 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:47:47 -0400 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:45:35 -0400 Message-Id: <98063010453573@vdhvax.vdh.state.vt.us> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: refinishing sink? X-VMS-To: SMTP%"greenbuilding@crest.org" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3813 any usggestions for refinishing an old cast iron sink? (someone mentioned some sort of "porcelain enamel-epoxy", but didn't know any more). Mike mrogers@vdh.state.vt.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 30 11:04:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23953 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:04:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02742; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:48:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:44:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02405 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:44:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02401 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:44:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.115] (ua19.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.52]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA12090 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:53:23 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 11:02:14 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Looking for methods to handle Solar Gain for Office Buildings Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3814 Tony, My experience is that extra money spent improving the envelope can be immediately recovered by savings in down-sized equipment and continue to pay dividends by reduced energy cost and thermal comfort problems. There are a number of ways you can go about making the improvements. - Terry >For a commercial office project in New England with a large (7-8 >story) southeast facing elevation with setbacks, I would >appreciate suggestions in dealing with the huge solar gain. > >The client is "interested" in Sustainable Design, but only to the >extent that any first cost premiums will be recovered in a >moderate payback period. >Information on integrated approaches involving light shelves, >interior and exterior shading and mechanical system ducting >would be particularly helpful. > >I am particularly interested in case studies, schematic details, >and precedent buildings which have dealt successfully with this >problem. > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 30 14:14:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02092 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:14:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14156; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:53:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:49:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA13745 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13741 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA00834 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 13:57:34 -0400 Message-id: <3801838@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 30 Jun 98 13:57:59 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Looking for methods to handle Solar Gain for Office Buildings To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3815 Hello Tony - I would look first at glazing with a high visible light transmittance and low solar heat gain coefficient. If the budget can stand it, you might look at some type of exterior fins which block direct sun when you don't need the heat - these can absorb some of the heat and reflect the light, but you need to be aware of glare. Choices need to be made in conjunction with accurate load modeling. Does the building need solar heat gain ever, or are the internal gains sufficient to heat the building through most or all of the winter? Of course, high efficiency lighting is important, and perhaps daylight dimming. A high quality building envelope - no thermal bridges and adequate amounts of insulation (say, a true R-20), airtight detailing, great windows (Dorwin or thermotech) - will permit a heating system with no perimeter heat zones. This savings will help pay for the envelope upgrades. Enthalpic heat recovery should allow cooling system downsizing of over 2 tons per 1000 cfm, which should pay for the recovery device. Hope this helps. Say hello to Jim B for me! Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 30 19:27:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA14452 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 19:27:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01173; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 19:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Jun 1998 19:08:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA00832 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 19:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kramer.pcisys.net (root@kramer.pcisys.net [207.76.102.252]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00828 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 19:07:56 -0400 (EDT) From: moxvox@pcisys.net Received: from [207.204.247.93] (bart93.pcisys.net [207.204.247.93]) by kramer.pcisys.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) via SMTP id RAA21203 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:16:37 -0600 (MDT) env-from (moxvox@pcisys.net) Message-Id: <199806302316.RAA21203@kramer.pcisys.net> X-Sender: moxvox@pcisys.net (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:17:50 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: More salvaging/waste stream talk Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3816 Hi GBers--A huge part of what my Spousal Unit and I are doing to make our building as green as possible has been to salvage as much of the materials as we can. Now I know that makes a lot of professionals want to run away screaming at the thought of using less than true, clean, NAHB-approved materials; I've personally seen it happen. However, the more we delve into this biz, the more we see the incredible waste that happens. I don't think Steve's story is a unique one, unfortunately. Our latest scrounging expedition was with a building at the end of its life cycle. It was a huge old carriage house full of wainscoting and bead board from at least the last century. We ended up having two days to get as much as we could from the thing. The upshot is that we probably saved a few hundred dollars in materials, not counting our time, of course. (And not counting the hard-to-estimate value of an artifact or two we found there.) But it got us thinking about what the world would look like if there were a place in our consuming economy for reusing old buildings. And I mean really reusing them--salvaging not only the fine trim but the clear pine cladding and decking (like Thomas mentions), the non-standard studs, the stones in the foundation. How would things have to change to make it as valuable to really dismantle and reuse buildings as it obviously is to pay people to come in and turn them to splinters to fill our dumps, and start fresh with trucked-in new wood? Sure, there are salvage yards around in most larger communities. But most don't really deal with major building materials. Could a business that had to pay for the dismantlers' time, the transportation and the overhead to store them ever hope to find enough of a market in the construction industry to even function as a non-profit? Could there be enough flexibility on the design and building end to make room for these things as they're found, or even to make time to find and use them? I think the answer is no, even in green construction. At least given the current mindset. I'm thinking lately about all those buildings going down all over the country, and wish there were more being done with them. At the same time, now I understand even more why they go down under front-end loaders. And this doesn't even touch on the amount of lumber that's wasted in the average new building or what it takes to get a construction company to let even a willing consumer have access to that, like Steve pointed out. If anyone has any thoughts on how to bring these materials back into the flow of construction, I'd be glad to hear them. Thanks..........Sara. Sara Mock Get these mutts away from me moxvox@pcisys.net You know I don't find this stuff www.moxvox.com/straw.html amusing anymore /\ _____----------------^^^/\/ /\^^^^^----_______________________ P Simon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 30 20:32:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA16203 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:32:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04173; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:18:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:15:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA03943 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03939 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 20:15:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 198.5.254.181 (ke-ppp07.hevanet.com [198.5.254.157]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA24034; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 17:23:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3598771D.6ED9@hevanet.com> Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 05:26:53 +0000 From: "M. Scott Jones" Reply-To: msjns@hevanet.com Organization: The Ecotopia Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: moxvox@pcisys.net CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: More salvaging/waste stream talk References: <199806302316.RAA21203@kramer.pcisys.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3817 Sara, there's a new company here in Portland, Oregon that's doing just that. It's called The Rebuilding Center. Number is 503/221-3193. Janelle Schmidt. With the help of grant money, they have secured a large space to house the stuff. See what they have to say. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jun 30 23:44:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA22155 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:44:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA11732; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:27:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11446 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:26:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11442 for ; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.201.82] (usr2a15.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.15]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA14200; Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:35:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3598771D.6ED9@hevanet.com> References: <199806302316.RAA21203@kramer.pcisys.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 23:11:44 -0400 To: moxvox@pcisys.net, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: More salvaging/waste stream talk Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3818 At 5:26 AM +0000 6/30/98, M. Scott Jones wrote: >Sara, there's a new company here in Portland, Oregon that's doing just >that. It's called The Rebuilding Center. Number is 503/221-3193. Janelle >Schmidt. > >With the help of grant money, they have secured a large space to house >the stuff. See what they have to say. Another neat company is Re-User Building Products, Inc. in Gainesville, Florida. They go into old buildings and salvage whatever they can before the buildings are demolished. 352-379-4600 Nadav Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 1 10:16:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA09701 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27410; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:03:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:58:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26996 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bsa-net.com ([199.218.113.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26986 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 09:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vwh5.concourse.com (vwh5.concourse.com [206.244.123.5] (may be forged)) by mail.bsa-net.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA24442; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:10:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by vwh5.concourse.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDA4E1.CC5A2AA0@vwh5.concourse.com>; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:17:13 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDA4E1.CC5A2AA0@vwh5.concourse.com> From: "Lane J. Beougher" To: "'moxvox@pcisys.net'" Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" , "'volcoor@habitat-columbus.org'" Subject: GBlist: More salvaging/waste stream talk Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:17:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA26987 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3819 Sara, Here in Columbus, Habitat for Humanity is running a salvaged and surplus building materials operation to help fund their main mission. It is called the "Build It Again Center" and is open on Saturdays from 10:00 am until 2:00 pm. In addition to used materials donated or salvaged with volunteer labor, they sell surplus new materials from mass corporate donations (ie. They get 50 sets of bathroom fixtures and can't store them for the five years it would take to install them in Habitat houses). They are running this operation out of an abandoned bowling alley that a developer donated (a ten year lease for $0), so overhead is low. If you would like more information, call 614-267-7778 or visit their web site at www.habitat-columbus.org. If every HFH operation set up the same sort of system, it would really make a difference. We also have a demo contractor who runs a salvage yard, but my preservationist (building conservationist) side doesn't like the other part of his business. He's torn down too many historically and architecturally significant structures to make room for surface parking. Lane J. Beougher, AIA, CCS Braun & Steidl Architects, Inc. 234 North Fifth Street Columbus, Ohio 43215 614.224.9555 Voice 614.224.1506 Fax LBeougher@BSA-net.com -----Original Message----- From: moxvox@pcisys.net [SMTP:moxvox@pcisys.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 9:18 PM To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: More salvaging/waste stream talk Hi GBers--A huge part of what my Spousal Unit and I are doing to make our building as green as possible has been to salvage as much of the materials as we can. Now I know that makes a lot of professionals want to run away screaming at the thought of using less than true, clean, NAHB-approved materials; I've personally seen it happen. However, the more we delve into this biz, the more we see the incredible waste that happens. I don't think Steve's story is a unique one, unfortunately. Our latest scrounging expedition was with a building at the end of its life cycle. It was a huge old carriage house full of wainscoting and bead board from at least the last century. We ended up having two days to get as much as we could from the thing. The upshot is that we probably saved a few hundred dollars in materials, not counting our time, of course. (And not counting the hard-to-estimate value of an artifact or two we found there.) But it got us thinking about what the world would look like if there were a place in our consuming economy for reusing old buildings. And I mean really reusing them--salvaging not only the fine trim but the clear pine cladding and decking (like Thomas mentions), the non-standard studs, the stones in the foundation. How would things have to change to make it as valuable to really dismantle and reuse buildings as it obviously is to pay people to come in and turn them to splinters to fill our dumps, and start fresh with trucked-in new wood? Sure, there are salvage yards around in most larger communities. But most don't really deal with major building materials. Could a business that had to pay for the dismantlers' time, the transportation and the overhead to store them ever hope to find enough of a market in the construction industry to even function as a non-profit? Could there be enough flexibility on the design and building end to make room for these things as they're found, or even to make time to find and use them? I think the answer is no, even in green construction. At least given the current mindset. I'm thinking lately about all those buildings going down all over the country, and wish there were more being done with them. At the same time, now I understand even more why they go down under front-end loaders. And this doesn't even touch on the amount of lumber that's wasted in the average new building or what it takes to get a construction company to let even a willing consumer have access to that, like Steve pointed out. If anyone has any thoughts on how to bring these materials back into the flow of construction, I'd be glad to hear them. Thanks..........Sara. Sara Mock Get these mutts away from me moxvox@pcisys.net You know I don't find this stuff www.moxvox.com/straw.html amusing anymore /\ _____----------------^^^/\/ /\^^^^^----_______________________ P Simon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 1 10:41:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10419 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:41:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29098; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:24:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28778 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28773 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:23:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-10 #26439) with SMTP id <0EVF00AVP6ZFMX@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 10:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 01 Jul 1998 10:29:36 -0400 Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 10:19:50 -0400 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: Salvage followup and consulting opportunity To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3820 This was an excellent suggestion. A much more positive approach than sending a disgruntled letter. Unfortunately, my ethics official is very uncomfortable with my pursuing a consulting arrangement of this sort. I would not be allowed to mention my EPA employment or background or even use any direct expertise I have gained at my job here without risking an ethics violation. It is considered using a government position for private gain, which is illegal. Since this was such a good suggestion, perhaps one of the consultants on the list would be interested in pursuing Jorg's suggestion. The building in question is in Arlington, VA. I'd be happy to provide additional information about it if you are. Steve O. _________________________ Contact Information Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html _________________________ >>> "Jorg D. Ostrowski" 06/25/98 07:18am >>> Steve: Phone them first and discuss. Offer them your consulting services to save them money. They could have market leverage by demonstrating prudent use of materials and proactive design/construction by allowing environmentally progressive material selection/fuel choices for progressive clients. Follow-up with a letter. Put your combined talents and astute observation (common sense) to use. Jorg Ostrowski ========================== Original Message appears below: A 16-story luxury condominium is being built a few blocks from my house. Across the street the developer built a sales office and model, approximately 3500 square feet, I would guess. It was a pretty straightforward slab on grade, single story house, with two models plus space for the sales office and other sales materials. On Monday morning I walked past, and they were destroying it. There was a huge pile of rubble and a tractor. By Monday evening it was gone, and the lot had been graded flat. I was very disturbed. The structure had been there for well less than a year, and as far as I could tell, a substantial amount of perfectly useful building materials were just thrown out. I wonder if this is a common practice? If the condo building is worth $60 - $100 million, do they care about spending $200,000 to build and destroy a sales office? Could it have been built with some sort of modular or component-type design, so that it could be disassembled and parts used elsewhere? Maybe they could have even allowed local non-profits to come in and salvage what they wanted first? I suspect they did save some things for use in the actual units themselves, such as countertops and appliances (probably the windows, too--I didn't see any in the pile). I didn't really investigate that carefully. I am tempted to send the developer a letter, and would be interested in some of your comments on what I might suggest. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 1 11:19:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA12651 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:19:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01544; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:05:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:01:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01125 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:01:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01117 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from .sover.net (pm0a20.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.148]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA18044 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:10:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <359A75AA.7657@sover.net> Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 10:45:14 -0700 From: Cindy Blakeslee X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: salvage etc. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3821 A new member to this group, it's time for me to pop in. A year ago I started a company called Residuum (in Vermont), which is both a construction waste reduction service and a used building materials store. The theory is that I put containers on construction sites to try to capture reusable materials (from both demo and new construction), saving the contractors (and their clients) money while making the materials available to the public through the store. This eliminates having to separate the material after it has been comingled with trash (often damaging materials), and gets contractors to view things a little differently. Although the container service hasn't really taken off with many contractors, I've successfully worked with a large contractor in Burlington (saving them thousands in trash fees on one project), and just started working with Smugglers' Notch ski resort as they build condos this summer. Many small time contractors do bring materials directly to the store (for which there is no charge), but the public has really been the saving grace. They GET IT, both on the supply and the sales end. For a variety of reasons I have just turned non-profit, creating The Center for Sustainable Building, Inc., under which Residuum will be one project/division. One thing which I did to encourage people to use these materials, and to view them as a resource rather than as trash, was to get a bill through the Legislature which, as of today, eliminates the sales tax on materials which are donated to Residuum (new scrap or used). This will save customers 5% on sales, and sets a precedent in Vermont which we hope to capitalize on in getting a sales tax exemption for other reusable items in coming years. It may have also set a national precedent. I'm still feeling my way through this approach, but I'm more convinced than ever that it is worth doing. Ideas, comments, suggestions and visitors are welcome. -- Cindy Blakeslee, Reuser Extraordinaire 802/479-9341 Visit the RESIDUUM! website to see our inventory: http://www.sover.net/~reuser/index.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 1 12:29:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14960 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05030; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:16:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:12:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04571 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04565 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:12:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:18:44 -0400 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF1355EB@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: RE: GBlist: More salvaging/waste stream talk Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 12:19:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3822 Hi Sara, Thank you bringing this topic up as Bovis is trying to become the leader in this field and appreciates hearing different viewpoints and ideas. Some things we are doing: Bovis is working with two manufacturers' "Reclamation" programs on our Green Building Pilot Project in Vienna, VA. Briefly: Milliken accepts our 12 year old carpet tiles back and has a process that "renews" them (rather than recycle). The finished product is impressive and carries a 7 year warranty. Armstrong accepts our mineral wool acoustical ceiling tiles back and recycles them into new products. We are donating reusable materials to The Loading Dock, Inc. in Baltimore, Maryland. They distribute the materials to low income and non-profit groups. Fairhaven School in Davidsonville, MD has also received some good stuff from us. One important point you made is the availability and cost of storage. On our projects, (normally pretty substantial-$3 million is considered small), we need to move a lot of material out quickly. I am leery of sending stuff to warehouses- How do you know it won't sit around for a long time and then someone ends up throwing it away, anyway? (I realize there are ways to verify and certify this type of thing but for our type of project you would need a big storage area.) Also, the storage required would impact how "Green" this process really would be. The reclamation programs mentioned above have been our biggest successes and are the most duplicable by our other projects. I look forward to other manufacturers following Milliken and Armstrong's lead in this area. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Drew George, Green Building Champion Bovis Construction Corp 11 Lincoln Parkway, Annapolis MD 21401 Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 http://www.bovis.com > ---------- > From: moxvox@pcisys.net[SMTP:moxvox@pcisys.net] > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 9:17 PM > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: More salvaging/waste stream talk > > Hi GBers--A huge part of what my Spousal Unit and I are doing to make > our > building as green as possible has been to salvage as much of the > materials > as we can. Now I know that makes a lot of professionals want to run > away > screaming at the thought of using less than true, clean, NAHB-approved > materials; I've personally seen it happen. However, the more we delve > into > this biz, the more we see the incredible waste that happens. I don't > think > Steve's story is a unique one, unfortunately. > > Our latest scrounging expedition was with a building at the end of its > life > cycle. It was a huge old carriage house full of wainscoting and bead > board > from at least the last century. We ended up having two days to get as > much > as we could from the thing. The upshot is that we probably saved a > few > hundred dollars in materials, not counting our time, of course. (And > not > counting the hard-to-estimate value of an artifact or two we found > there.) > > > But it got us thinking about what the world would look like if there > were a > place in our consuming economy for reusing old buildings. And I mean > really reusing them--salvaging not only the fine trim but the clear > pine > cladding and decking (like Thomas mentions), the non-standard studs, > the > stones in the foundation. How would things have to change to make it > as > valuable to really dismantle and reuse buildings as it obviously is to > pay > people to come in and turn them to splinters to fill our dumps, and > start > fresh with trucked-in new wood? > > Sure, there are salvage yards around in most larger communities. But > most > don't really deal with major building materials. Could a business > that had > to pay for the dismantlers' time, the transportation and the overhead > to > store them ever hope to find enough of a market in the construction > industry to even function as a non-profit? Could there be enough > flexibility on the design and building end to make room for these > things as > they're found, or even to make time to find and use them? I think the > answer is no, even in green construction. At least given the current > mindset. I'm thinking lately about all those buildings going down all > over > the country, and wish there were more being done with them. At the > same > time, now I understand even more why they go down under front-end > loaders. > > And this doesn't even touch on the amount of lumber that's wasted in > the > average new building or what it takes to get a construction company to > let > even a willing consumer have access to that, like Steve pointed out. > If > anyone has any thoughts on how to bring these materials back into the > flow > of construction, I'd be glad to hear them. Thanks..........Sara. > > > > Sara Mock Get these mutts away from me > moxvox@pcisys.net You know I don't find this > stuff > www.moxvox.com/straw.html amusing > anymore > /\ > _____----------------^^^/\/ /\^^^^^----_______________________ P > Simon > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 1 14:52:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19477 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14389; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:38:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:34:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14039 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:34:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14029 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:34:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06978 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 14:43:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dsy9.vineyard.net(206.166.158.67) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma006963; Wed Jul 1 14:42:56 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 11:34:14 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: salvage, etc. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3823 Cindy Blakeslee's "salvage dumpsters on construction sites" business concept is a beauty. I hope many will emulate and I hope your endeavor is successful, Cindy. Thanks for sharing with us. Keep it up. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 1 19:23:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA28931 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 19:23:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29665; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 19:10:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 1 Jul 1998 19:06:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA29398 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 19:06:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bsa-net.com ([199.218.113.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA29394 for ; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 19:06:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vwh5.concourse.com (vwh5.concourse.com [206.244.123.5] (may be forged)) by mail.bsa-net.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA04380; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 23:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by vwh5.concourse.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDA52E.50C35860@vwh5.concourse.com>; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:24:57 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDA52E.50C35860@vwh5.concourse.com> From: "Lane J. Beougher" To: "'Tony Vogel'" Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Looking for methods to handle Solar Gain for Office Buildings Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 20:24:56 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAA29395 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3824 Tony, You should look at Heat Mirror glazing from Southwall Technologies www.southwall.com. They have several different products with varying solar gain coefficients. This means you can put a different unit (higher gain, lower U-value) on the north side than the south (lower gain, higher U-value). They seem to have great success with large expanses of glazing in warmer climates than yours, and can be glazed into standard aluminum frames or curtainwall (with thermal breaks of course), or Hurd www.hurd.com manufactures a line of aluminum clad wood windows with it. Southwall also makes a film called Solis for existing installations. Croxton Collaborative installed Heat Mirror at Audobon House in NYC, and I specified it for Denison University's Environmental Studies Building www.denison.edu/enviro/barney. (No, I don't own stock, but maybe I should) You should still look into the sunshades, light shelves, and other "trendy" green techniques that make a building look green (make it a design feature and everyone will want in). We designed a small interior light shelf (that probably won't work well) at Barney to keep the exterior historic look of the hundred year old building. I suspect your client wants to have an office building that costs and looks like everyone else's (ugly?). I was at a seminar sponsored by Ohio's Department of Energy, when another Architect discussed having sunshades on a building where the budget was a concern. The contractor suggested removing them to save money (this happens a lot). The engineer recalculated the HVAC requirements and the increased size of the units cost nearly twice the savings, even before the first electric bill was paid. It got built with the sunshades. Show your client not only the first cost, but operating costs as well. I suggest you have your consultants use computer energy modeling software (make sure he can use it correctly, and you can give him the correct input) and show your client the economic advantages to energy efficient design. As for the mechanical system, look into displacement ventilation. This is where supply air is directed to occupants at floor level before mixing with room air. Heat gains are then exhausted through the ceiling. Talk to Flack & Kurtz Engineering's New York office at 212-532-9600 or visit www.fk.com. They used this system in Alcoa's new headquarters and say this system with a raised floor saved $2.00/square foot over conventional HVAC systems. If you install only low-VOC and formaldehyde free products, your outside air requirement may be reduced as well (check local codes). The other advantages to green energy efficient approaches could be smaller mechanical spaces (higher leasable area), smaller ductwork with floor to floor heights to match. If we can save a little money AND sustain the planet, your client can sleep a little easier. This is the future of conventional construction! Lane J. Beougher, AIA, CCS Braun & Steidl Architects, Inc. 234 North Fifth Street Columbus, Ohio 43215 614.224.9555 Voice 614.224.1506 Fax LBeougher@BSA-net.com -----Original Message----- From: Tony Vogel [SMTP:Vogel@arrowstreet.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 1998 10:15 AM To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Looking for methods to handle Solar Gain for Office Buildings For a commercial office project in New England with a large (7-8 story) southeast facing elevation with setbacks, I would appreciate suggestions in dealing with the huge solar gain. The client is "interested" in Sustainable Design, but only to the extent that any first cost premiums will be recovered in a moderate payback period. Information on integrated approaches involving light shelves, interior and exterior shading and mechanical system ducting would be particularly helpful. I am particularly interested in case studies, schematic details, and precedent buildings which have dealt successfully with this problem. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 2 01:20:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA13198 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:20:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA13675; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:01:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA13436 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:01:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13432 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:01:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DG5KUX5V; Thu, 02 Jul 1998 01:08:05 EDT To: marciamcd@juno.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:36:00 -0600 Subject: GBlist: GB: Forest Service Comment Cards Message-ID: <19980701.215802.3438.1.goldeneagle1@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-108 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Samantha L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3825 > Subject: Forest Service Comment Cards > > > These are actual comments left on Forest Service registration sheets > and > comment cards by backpackers completing wilderness camping trips: > > "A small deer came into my camp and stole my bag of pickles. Is there > a > way I can get reimbursed? Please call." > > "Escalators would help on steep uphill sections." > > "Instead of a permit system or regulations, the Forest Service needs > to reduce > worldwide population growth to limit the number of visitors to > wilderness." > > "Trails need to be wider so people can walk while holding hands." > > "Ban walking sticks in wilderness. Hikers that use walking sticks are > more > likely to chase animals." > > "All the mile markers are missing this year." > > "Found a smouldering cigarette left by a horse." > > "Trails need to be reconstructed. Please avoid building trails that go > uphill." > > "Too many bugs and leeches and spiders and spider webs. Please spray > the > wilderness to rid the area of these pests." > > "Please pave the trails so they can be plowed of snow in the winter." > > "Chairlifts need to be in some places so that we can get to wonderful > views > without having to hike to them." > > "The coyotes made too much noise last night and kept me awake. Please > eradicate these annoying animals." > > "Reflectors need to be placed on trees every 50 feet so people can > hike at > night with flashlights." > > "Need more signs to keep area pristine." > > "A McDonald's would be nice at the trailhead." > > "The places where trails do not exist are not well marked." > > "Too many rocks in the mountains." > ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDA335.50DA7450 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgMNAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQWAAwAOAAAAzgcGAB0ACAAJADsAAQBFAQEggAMADgAAAM4HBgAd AAgACgAAAAEACwEBCYABACEAAABBMDFGMjA3RTQ5MEREMjExOEE1ODAwNjA5N0I5Mjk4QwD8BgEE gAEAIQAAAEZXOiBGb3Jlc3QgU2VydmljZSBDb21tZW50IENhcmRzAFsLAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAED kAYAqAgAACEAAAADACYAAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAAwAuAAAAAAACAQkQAQAAAAwFAAAIBQAApggAAExa RnWqPOW+AwAKAHJjcGcxMjX+MgD/AgYCpAPkBesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArAc2V0/jIGAAbDAoMOUAPV BxMCg7ozE819CoAIzwnZOxa/vQ4wNQKACoEOcQtgbg4QvDAzFOALChOyDAFjAECCIAqLbGkxNDQC 0TxpLRyTDNAckwtZMTY1DCFwA2B0BZAFQFN19GJqHxE6CuEd6x7WDIK8IEYFsAeQHzEEkHYN4PRl IAhQbQeAAjAigAsR/nMKhQqPC5EU4hszHbEe5fkj1VRoB5AicArAJvEfILp1B0AgBaAiswQgbA7h LiACICGeFsBnBAB0cuhhdGkooXMmwBLABCA9AHBkI9UnxSewIyIgYvZ5LHAA0GskACzQBJAEIE8n wQtQEsALgGcgA/Bs9wSCB5AtUWEtkC3iKhAFIGRzOiNsIkEqgADAbD8DIA5wBJAuwiJwC4B0b/wg bSyQLtIq8iqAMeAoUMcyAiywLgBvZiAvACzQoShQcy4gSQQgdCbA0yciI9V3YSyQSSwRA6BuZxLA KbEHcGIIcBKwZOg/IFAoUGEm4SwgMPD0LiIvvUUE8AdAKjAFsK0EIHcIYC5AICbAbDJwiypiHwBl MnB1cGgDEL8DIBKwHyAqUTQwN95JAIBtHwBhMrAzoWEzwASQbdJpBUBzeTphbSiQBcDnKcE5oCoz cyw0giGeLoDvCYA0cTHwFsF1ImA1BgWwzy5AA/AOcDPAb3A+1TYAfQNgdzSQQPIccD3CP3Ju/nUG 0DFBM6EiQACQOTMx4fsuKDu/VCogAxAEIECiQPL/RMAuEQSBKoAx8D2QQrAzAXM10jVwbGsuEDrh InBoPQbwZC3iEoArEEaPIkJ/SdUt4iHgM+EEIAuAReog/EhpLSM0kCowOrAm4UzdvycSBGAWwCPV HHAtIGwskP8x4RJxJuIDADDRS38wkDDx/z9yPcAzAgrALSNQowQBLxNrOuAEIHk3MHJTDyGgdT8y oT1wMMA5kgZxLfFjaf5nJxECQCJwKFMsgT1wSrC/EqFWv0evKbEFoDzRckFgjR8AZDRANxVhdm9C YD0scHUuMS8UR8NPI2dv5yPVOsRan1RvMfEAcCyR/HVnKuMoQQWQJsEyhC8A5wSBY1ouEGViNDE3 FWOw/yogUeEmwDUGLjhBAl5RP3L/JxE9cDOhNJEm4T2QIeBS//YiNxUkAHYicD9yXxVJIf80kTIi A6BIkQtQQ3BIMTOh/HNuQ3BNsj9yA/ACMASQ9WlPQxKAaUIgBpAoIUgZ/03BSSAxkQtRImBrpU9B ZODvNcdFwgIgBIFmOaBFIQfQ/yNWA/A0kAhgBUASgCJALyLfMfA64C0gQPI0kW1ufyax/SexeR7x BCAAwEJxMeAx8f9BYEOgbWAEAFmBN0AFQAMAfGdoBUAyki0gBTExkWH/NXAtIF2WI9UEkD0QDeAq MHdq81JjbWB5LeJSnzA1Uv8ZgR8ROUJIGXFjPSFtsQnRFQQgZWrgciyQNTAg/mYqsUkddbMqMCPV edR0kruCIHmBaBxwefF+LyIHwP9IMVDiKoBZEAYxMeEtIDqRP2gTHtAp8QuAWo8wkU1j5kQCIAdA ZCc5ZkiRAwD/ImFPQWsXJsA9EIkPd4JxZXdKUDSyXxVkMfBtYAVAZf54KfEnA4+CZOAw8VTjjL// YcgDYE2FVFNX0QGQC4CFmC8aLwwBJc0V4QCXUB4AcAABAAAAIQAAAEZXOiBGb3Jlc3QgU2Vydmlj ZSBDb21tZW50IENhcmRzAAAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG9o17pd7QjCZAPJBHSrMcAYJeAkzkAAEAA OQDQJDo4X6O9AQMA8T8JBAAAHgAxQAEAAAAGAAAAUEMxMTAAAAADABpAAAAAAB4AMEABAAAABgAA AFBDMTEwAAAAAwAZQAAAAAADAP0/5AQAAAIBRwABAAAANAAAAGM9VVM7YT0gO3A9QkFSVFdFU1Qu Q09NO2w9TlRNQUlMLTk4MDYyOTEzMDk1OVotNjg1MgACAfk/AQAAAFAAAAAAAAAA3KdAyMBCEBq0 uQgAKy/hggEAAAAAAAAAL089QkFSVFdFU1QuQ09NL09VPUVOR0lORUVSUy9DTj1SRUNJUElFTlRT L0NOPVBDMTEwAB4A+D8BAAAAEAAAAExpc2EgVmFuZGVyYmlsdAAeADhAAQAAAAYAAABQQzExMAAA AAIB+z8BAAAAUAAAAAAAAADcp0DIwEIQGrS5CAArL+GCAQAAAAAAAAAvTz1CQVJUV0VTVC5DT00v T1U9RU5HSU5FRVJTL0NOPVJFQ0lQSUVOVFMvQ049UEMxMTAAHgD6PwEAAAAQAAAATGlzYSBWYW5k ZXJiaWx0AB4AOUABAAAABgAAAFBDMTEwAAAAQAAHMKCdODhfo70BQAAIMACSbDhfo70BHgA9AAEA AAAFAAAARlc6IAAAAAAeAB0OAQAAAB0AAABGb3Jlc3QgU2VydmljZSBDb21tZW50IENhcmRzAAAA AB4ANRABAAAAMAAAADxFMTFGRDE4REU2RUNEMDExOEEyNTAwNjA5N0I5Mjk4QzI2MEUyNkBOVE1B SUw+AAsAKQABAAAACwAjAAAAAAADAAYQnUj1pQMABxDYBAAAAwAQEAEAAAADABEQAQAAAB4ACBAB AAAAZQAAAFNVQkpFQ1Q6Rk9SRVNUU0VSVklDRUNPTU1FTlRDQVJEU1RIRVNFQVJFQUNUVUFMQ09N TUVOVFNMRUZUT05GT1JFU1RTRVJWSUNFUkVHSVNUUkFUSU9OU0hFRVRTQU5EQ09NTUUAAAAAAgF/ AAEAAAAwAAAAPEUxMUZEMThERTZFQ0QwMTE4QTI1MDA2MDk3QjkyOThDMjYwRTI2QE5UTUFJTD4A S4I= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BDA335.50DA7450-- --------- End forwarded message ---------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 2 01:27:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA13365 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:27:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA14207; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:10:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA13865 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:10:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA13861 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 01:10:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip11.ivnet.net [206.101.73.171]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09947; Wed, 1 Jul 1998 21:15:33 -0700 Message-ID: <359B172C.C27F39ED@ivnet.net> Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 22:14:20 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: moxvox@pcisys.net CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: More salvaging/waste stream talk References: <199806302316.RAA21203@kramer.pcisys.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3826 As long as logging gets huge subsidies and isn't required to be done in a sustainable fashion, lumber prices will be artificially low. Europeans have been paying vastly more for lumber than we do for some years now. When the cost of lumber triples, there will be salvaged lumber everywhere. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 2 06:24:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA19798 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:24:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA21666; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:10:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:06:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA21231 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:06:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA21223 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:06:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA08229 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:15:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from asy5.vineyard.net(206.166.158.24) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma008184; Thu Jul 2 06:15:18 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 05:34:35 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: Golf Courses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3827 A new golf course (scourge of the planet) will soon be built in my area. The developers have asked for my advice about how they could diminish the impact and make this course a "positive environmental statement". I said just use it like it is - like they used to in Scotland - put your ball down on the moor, swing your club, and follow the ball. They didn't accept this sage advice. Does anyone have any good suggestions? John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 2 07:15:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA20858 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 07:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22966; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 07:01:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:58:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA22734 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:57:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA22730 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 06:57:28 -0400 (EDT) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1FPAa27848 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 07:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <92bfb185.359b6991@aol.com> Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 07:05:52 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Golf Courses Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3828 A couple years ago, I worked on a project with a company called Ferris Industries (Vernon, NY), along with Augusta National Golf Course, developing an aerator which blows air through the drainage system under golf greens, back up through the soil of the green. The aerator ostensibly makes the grass grow more viably, potentially reducing the need for pesticides, etc. I can't comment too insightfully on how well it works because I never got involved in the biology of it (I was just a techie helping out with fan selection, product design, etc.). The product is called Subair. I also like your ball on the moor idea. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 108 S. Albany St. Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX IMSHAPIRO@AOL.COM ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 2 10:00:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25522 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28081; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:46:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:42:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27760 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:42:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from panther.wcs.org (panther.wcs.org [207.198.132.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27756 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wcs.org ([207.198.134.84]) by panther.wcs.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.01) with ESMTP id 573; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:54:57 -0400 Message-ID: <359B900A.4DB496EE@wcs.org> Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 09:50:03 -0400 From: "Jon Dohlin" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re:golf course design Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3829 john et al yeah, i have some advice. why don't you take up the challenge seriously instead of being flippant. there's a lot of things wrong with golf courses (mostly the associated economic and socio-political elitism of the game's afficionados), but in the circles of hell they're not even close to being the "scourge of the planet"-- and they present more opportunities than most for integrated ecological design. just a few quick ideas, most of which are pretty obvious: mixed native specie "hedgerow" roughs and out-of-bounds for habitat and cover water hazards that double as greywater reclamation gardens to handle the turf irrigation and provide wildlife habitat urban (or suburban) managed woodlots re-thinking layout so that a portion of the course can be used for mixed recreational activities in addition to golf solar powered carts! clubhouse and outbuilding ecotecture sheep for mowers! layout that incorporates wildlife greenbelt corridors bio-degradable golf balls! etc etc as offensive as they may be, when it comes to preservation of open space, a golf course beats the heck out of another expanse of typical tract homes, n'est pas? jon dohlin wildlife conservation society ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 2 10:46:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27764 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:46:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00111; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:32:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:28:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29560 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:27:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (root@kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29553 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:27:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.70.79 (pm2-79.hoosier.net [206.106.70.79]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24811; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 09:36:45 -0500 Message-ID: <359B9AFA.18E3@bloomington.in.us> Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 09:36:43 -0500 From: John Bower Reply-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Abrams CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Golf Courses References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3830 For less environmental impact, go with a miniature golf course! -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 2 11:02:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28316 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:02:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00976; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:47:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:43:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00588 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:43:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from exempla.org (lmcf.exempla.org [170.188.5.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00573 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 10:42:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lmcf.exempla.org id <41223>; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:54:31 -0600 Message-Id: <98Jul2.085431mdt.41223@lmcf.exempla.org> X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:51:42 -0600 From: Bruce Rippe To: greenbuilding@crest.org, jabrams@vineyard.net Subject: GBlist: Golf Courses -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3831 Hello John, Yea, though I agree that golf courses are a scourge and plague to the planet, even so, the almighty developers careth not my opinion....and probably none of the golfers either. In any case, on the west side of the metro Denver area is a small, public golf course which has been around for years that has received awards for their efforts at xeriscaping, using more native grasses ( i.e. drought resistant in this area) and trying to "go with the flow" of the land on which the course was built. The name,address and phone are as follows: Applewood Golf Course 14001 W. 32nd Avenue Golden, CO 80401 (303) 279-3033 The grounds crew or course designer may have some suggestions that you can pass along to the people near your home. Fore! Bruce ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 2 11:54:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA00123 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:54:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04380; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:40:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:36:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03666 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:35:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03649 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:35:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA23867; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:44:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dsy9.vineyard.net(206.166.158.67) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma023855; Thu Jul 2 11:44:49 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <359B900A.4DB496EE@wcs.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 11:40:42 -0400 To: "Jon Dohlin" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: re:golf course design Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3832 Joe - You wrote: >yeah, i have some advice. why don't you take up the challenge seriously >instead of being flippant. Believe it or not, Joe, it's possible to take things seriously and with a sense of humor at the same time. This is such a case. Already I've received some good advice (from you and others), and some good off-list suggestions as well. >there's a lot of things wrong with golf >courses (mostly the associated economic and socio-political elitism of >the game's afficionados), but in the circles of hell they're not even >close to being the "scourge of the planet"-- and they present more >opportunities than most for integrated ecological design. I've been told that when viewed from space, one of the earth's dominant features are the ubiquitous golf courses which make the planet look like "a dog with mange." >just a few >quick ideas, most of which are pretty obvious: >mixed native specie "hedgerow" roughs and out-of-bounds for habitat and >cover >water hazards that double as greywater reclamation gardens to handle the >turf irrigation and provide wildlife habitat >urban (or suburban) managed woodlots >re-thinking layout so that a portion of the course can be used for mixed >recreational activities in addition to golf >solar powered carts! >clubhouse and outbuilding ecotecture >sheep for mowers! >layout that incorporates wildlife greenbelt corridors >bio-degradable golf balls! >etc etc Good suggestions. Thanks kindly. >as offensive as they may be, when it comes to preservation of open >space, a golf course beats the heck out of another expanse of typical >tract homes, n'est pas? Hmm, are those the only two choices for a beautiful 200 acre sandplain on the Efgartown Great Pond? Might we think a bit more broadly? John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 2 14:57:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06548 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10870; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:38:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10420 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:38:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f177.hotmail.com [207.82.251.63]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10416 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 14:38:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 2004 invoked by uid 0); 2 Jul 1998 18:40:01 -0000 Message-ID: <19980702184001.2002.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 161.73.18.74 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 02 Jul 1998 11:40:01 PDT X-Originating-IP: [161.73.18.74] From: "Mohit Bhargava" To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org, environs.com@juno.com Subject: GBlist: Choosing clients! Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 18:40:01 GMT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3833 Hi! I will be a graduate in Energy Efficient Building and am wondering the kind of firms that would be interested to employ such an architect! The question here is, much like 'choosing clients', whether a recent graduate should work for a usual architectural practice or a 'green' or 'energy conscious' practice? Is it the responsibility of the fresh graduates to propogate these ideas in other than these kind of practices? Mohit ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 2 15:28:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA07722 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:28:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14158; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:13:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:09:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13457 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:09:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13448 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:08:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DG64FRMN; Thu, 02 Jul 1998 15:17:12 EDT To: mohitbhargava@hotmail.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 15:22:02 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Re: Choosing clients! Message-ID: <19980702.152307.15902.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <19980702184001.2002.qmail@hotmail.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-6,11-12,15-20 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3834 Mohit, Your first responsibility is to make a living. Whether you do that in a "green" firm or whether you choose to join a conventional firm and become the "green conscience" makes little difference if you can't pay the bills. Either choice is acceptable. As a young intern you will have little initial influence but , at least in a conventional firm, you might be able to start getting them thinking along different lines and, if eventually they find themselves being asked for greener design factors you will be in place to show them the "way of the future". As you bring in clients of your own, you can make an effort to find those already predisposed to sustainable design or you can use the opportunity to educate clients who were not previously so inclined. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 2 16:21:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA09610 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:21:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18714; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:03:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA18093 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:03:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA18088 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:03:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Alisa (usr0a89.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.89]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA11555; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 16:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980702161410.006c77d4@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 16:14:10 -0400 To: "Mohit Bhargava" , dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org, environs.com@juno.com From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: Choosing clients! In-Reply-To: <19980702184001.2002.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3835 Mohit, Any Firm that has any sense about the future would be smart to hire someone educated in energy- efficiency. Things change constantly in this world and yesterdays' pain-in -the -ass becomes tomorrows common practice. The State of Vermont has just adopted an energy code that all new buildings must meet the standards of. I would not be surprized if other states require the same. Any firm confronted new energy regulations would benefit from your skills. I would first look for a firm that shares your values , social, political, and environmental. If you have no luck there, find a firm that has projects you want to be part of and offer yourself as someone who can add a skill to the work pool. Remember it's the role of young people to remind the powers that be that the future exists. Plus your skills can add value and save money for a firms future clients. Keep at it- Danny Sagan, Randolph Vermont. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 2 17:26:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA11834 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:26:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22025; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:13:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:09:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA21609 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:09:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21603 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Alisa (usr0a8.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.8]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA01736; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980702172020.006bf1ec@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 17:20:20 -0400 To: John Abrams , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: Golf Courses In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3836 Hey there John, I am not completely up on what it takes to plant a golf course but I know that RMI helped with a project out in Illinois where they planted a corporate park with native species and ended up saving the company a substantial amount of money in maintanance costs. I also see that EBN reveiwed two books on native plantings as replacements for lawns, the Wild Lawn Handbook and Going Native: Biodiversity in ou own backyard. EBN Vol4 , #5 p 19. Perhaps you know these books already? Seems like a coastal plain would be a good candidate for native grasses. C Ya Danny Sagan, Randolph Ctr, VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 2 17:33:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA12065 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22547; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:18:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:14:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA22118 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:14:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA22112 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:14:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.69] (uc4.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.69]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA05455 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:23:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:34:11 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: roof costs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3837 Hi folks, I'm interested in people's experience with slate roofs and standing seam galvanized or copper roofs. Installed cost per square if you have it at your fingertips. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 2 21:43:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA19407 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:43:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA02544; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:30:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:21:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA02127 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02123 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:21:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id UAA0000032427; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 20:30:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980703013247.0069e530@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Jul 1998 20:32:47 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: recycling cast iron sinks Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3838 I'm also interested in answers to the following. Any good ones out there? I've understood that the epoxy cover-ups don't last. Sacie Lambertson any suggestions for refinishing an old cast iron sink? (someone mentioned some sort of "porcelain enamel-epoxy", but didn't know any more). Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 2 21:57:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA19691 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:57:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA03490; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:43:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:40:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA03199 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:39:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linguist (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA03195 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:39:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.209] (ka3-209.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.209]) by linguist (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id VAA26131 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 21:48:51 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 08:24:41 -0400 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Pentachlorophenol Pressure-Treated Wood Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id VAA03196 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3839 Hallo, all. I noticed recently that our power company doesn't use creosote-treated phone poles anymore. I called up and asked what they used now. I just received a note in the mail with the answer: Pentachlorophenol Also on the paper are many claims of safety which sound remarkably similar to those you read about CCA-treated wood. So I thought I'd request a second opinion. How safe is this stuff? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 2 23:16:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA21678 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA07134; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 23:02:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 2 Jul 1998 22:58:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA06858 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 22:58:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06848 for ; Thu, 2 Jul 1998 22:58:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail2.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Thu, 2 Jul 1998 22:14:28 +0100 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 98 22:14:39 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re(2): GBlist: REBAR To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5315770.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3840 Years ago (about 1983)Pliny designed a building in which a bamboo reinforcing system was used as a substitute for rebar in a poured caliche/cement floor in a demonstration building project in Carrizo Springs, TX. As best we know, there's been no failure. We can probably dig up more on this if there is interest. We also used bamboos as lintels and ceiling trusses. Gail Vittori -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 3 11:06:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08223 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:06:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27887; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 10:53:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Jul 1998 10:46:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27519 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 10:46:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27514 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 10:46:37 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DG87Q8RC; Fri, 03 Jul 1998 10:53:17 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:53:43 -0500 Subject: GBlist: Yep. Message-ID: <19980703.101126.-80909.7.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.07 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3841 I just attended a "Technical Architecture Course," given by a highly paid consultant. After seeing slides upon slides with words like "prewrote," "summarization," and "stateful," she came to a sequence with "transactionality" scattered throughout. As an aside, she complained, "You know, it's interesting. Microsoft Word doesn't know any of these computer words. It marks them as misspelled." Probably an ecologist. Source - Dogbert's New Ruling Class _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 3 13:55:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12632 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:54:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05583; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:37:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05255 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:37:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05247 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 13:37:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.topher.net (ppp17.topher.net [206.136.138.176]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA22316 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:32:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199807031732.MAA22316@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: "greenbuilder" Subject: GBlist: Metal Roof Cost Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 12:45:58 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3842 I have a standing seam galvalume roof (no coating, just bare galvalume). Our's is 24 gauge and cost about $4.20 /sf installed. I expect it to outlive me. It does a great job reflecting the hot summer sun and it cools off quickly at night. It's also going to save money on insurance. As soon as I get official test data from the manufacturer on impact resistance I might qualify for hail resistant roof discounts recently offered in Texas. This could save me about $250 in insurance! The most frequent question I get is "Is it loud when it rains?" The answer is no. I get nice buffering from my 8" SIP panels that serve as the roof structure. Regards, Paul --------- Date: Thu, 2 Jul 1998 17:34:11 -0400 From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: roof costs Hi folks, I'm interested in people's experience with slate roofs and standing seam galvanized or copper roofs. Installed cost per square if you have it at your fingertips. - Terry ---------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 3 14:47:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13852 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08428; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:33:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:29:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07471 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:28:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07467 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mbay152.cruzio.com (mbay152.cruzio.com [165.227.93.152]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id LAA08585; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Hal Levin" To: Cc: Subject: GBlist: Pentachlorophenol Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 11:35:09 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01bda6b1$4e98c960$985de3a5@mbay152.cruzio.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3843 Joshua: The bottom line is that it is not nice stuff. Its use was severely restricted by EPA in the mid 1980s, and its global production was halved. It causes all kinds of nasty effects and is not longer permitted to be used as a wood preservative indoors or in materials that agricultural animals can contact - buildings, fencing, containers. It lasts a very long time due to its low volatility. Utility workers are at risk from their exposures and should wear gloves, long sleeves, etc. to avoid direct skin contact, since it is absorbed through the skin. I can give you more information if you need it, but check out the information below and see if they don't answer your questions. A good starting point for investigating a chemical is http://chemfinder.camsoft.com/ Excerpts below from http://atsdr1.atsdr.cdc.gov:8080/ToxFAQs/000087-86-5.html ToxFAQs Pentachlorophenol CAS# 87-86-5 September 1995 Pentachlorophenol C6Cl5OH Stereo Image XYZ File NFPA Label Key Material Safety Data Sheet (University of Utah) Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry This fact sheet answers the most frequently asked health questions about pentachlorophenol. For more information, you may call the ATSDR Information Center at 1-800-447-1544. This fact sheet is one in a series of summaries about hazardous substances and their health effects. This information is important because this substance may harm you. The effects of exposure to any hazardous substance depend on the dose, the duration, how you are exposed, personal traits and habits, and whether other chemicals are present. SUMMARY: Exposure to pentachlorophenol happens mostly to workers at lumber mills and wood-treatment facilities where it is used as a wood preservative. Pentachlorophenol can harm the liver, kidneys, blood, lungs, nervous system, immune system, and gastrointestinal tract. It can also irritate the skin and eyes. This chemical has been found in at least 260 of 1,416 National Priorities List sites identified by the Environmental Protection Agency. What is pentachlorophenol? (Pronounced pen'ta-klor'o-fee'nol) Pentachlorophenol is a manufactured chemical not found naturally in the environment. Pure pentachlorophenol occurs as a colorless crystal. The impure form is dark gray to brown dust, beads, or flakes. It has a sharp chemical odor when hot, but very little smell at room temperature. Pentachlorophenol was used as a biocide and wood preservative. It was one of the most heavily used pesticides in the United States. Now, only certified applicators can purchase and use pentachlorophenol. It is still used in industry as a wood preservative for power line poles, railroad ties, cross arms, and fence posts. It is no longer found in wood preserving solutions or insecticides and herbicides that you can buy for home and garden use. What happens to pentachlorophenol when it enters the environment? Pentachlorophenol generally sticks to soil particles, but its movement in soils depends on the soil's acidity. Not much pentachlorophenol will evaporate into the air. It lasts for hours or days in air, soils, and surface waters. It doesn't dissolve easily in water. In soils and surface waters, microorganisms break it down into other compounds. Sunlight breaks it down in surface waters and air. Some of the break-down compounds may harm people. It is present in fish, but tissue levels are usually low because pentachlorophenol breaks down in the body. How might I be exposed to pentachlorophenol? Breathing contaminated air while working with treated wood at wood-treatment facilities and lumber mills Touching treated lumber, for example, in wood-treatment facilities and lumber mills or in construction or farming Breathing contaminated air from log homes made from pentachlorophenol-treated logs Breathing contaminated air near waste sites, sites of accidental spills, and work sites Touching contaminated soil at waste sites and landfills Drinking contaminated water near waste sites, sites of accidental spills, and work sites Eating contaminated food, such as fish, or drinking contaminated water, but these exposures are low and are not very common. How can pentachlorophenol affect my health? Short-term exposures to large amounts of pentachlorophenol or long-term exposure to low levels can harm the liver, kidneys, blood, lungs, nervous system, immune system, and gastrointestinal tract. Researchers have seen similar effects in animals. Impurities in commercial pentachlorophenol may cause many, but not all, of its harmful effects. Direct contact with pentachlorophenol can irritate the skin, eyes, and mouth, particularly when it is a hot vapor. We do not know whether pentachlorophenol causes birth defects in people. It caused a decrease in the number of offspring born to animals that were exposed to it while they were pregnant. How likely is pentachlorophenol to cause cancer? The International Agency for Research on Cancer has determined that pentachlorophenol is possibly carcinogenic to humans. This conclusion is based on animal studies that showed an increased risk of cancer, specifically in the livers and adrenal glands of mice. There is no good evidence that pentachlorophenol can cause cancer in people. Is there a medical test to show whether I've been exposed to pentachlorophenol? Laboratory tests can measure pentachlorophenol in the blood, urine, and body tissues. These tests are only useful shortly after you are exposed because pentachlorophenol leaves the body fairly quickly. These tests do not tell you how much pentachlorophenol you've been exposed to or if your health will be harmed. The tests are not routinely available at your doctor's office. Has the federal government made recommendations to protect human health? The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has set a limit for drinking water of 1 part of pentachlorophenol per billion parts of water (1 ppb). EPA recommends that children not drink water containing more than 0.3 parts of pentachlorophenol per million parts of water (0.3 ppm) for longer than one day; adults should not drink water with more than 1 ppm. The EPA requires that spills and accidental releases of pentachlorophenol into the environment of 10 pounds or more must be reported to the EPA. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), and the American Conference of Governmental and Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH) recommend a maximum level of 0.5 milligrams of pentachlorophenol per cubic meter (0.5 mg/m³) of workplace air for an 8-hour workday over a 40-hour workweek. These agencies advise avoiding eye and skin contact because this may be a route of significant exposure. Glossary Biocide: A substance that can kill living things. Carcinogenic: Ability to cause cancer. Long-term: Lasting one year or longer. Milligram (mg): One thousandth of a gram. PPB: Parts per billion. Short-term: Lasting 14 days or less. References Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR). 1994. Toxicological profile for pentachlorophenol (update). Atlanta, GA: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Public Health Service. Where can I get more information? ATSDR can tell you where to find occupational and environmental health clinics. Their specialists can recognize, evaluate, and treat illnesses resulting from exposure to hazardous substances. You can also contact your community or state health or environmental quality department if you have any more questions or concerns. For more information, contact: Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry Division of Toxicology 1600 Clifton Road NE, Mailstop E-29 Atlanta, GA 30333 Phone: 1-800-447-1544 FAX: 404-639-6315 U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Public Health Service Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry Link to ToxFAQs Home Page Link to ATSDR Science Corner Link to ATSDR Home Page ATSDR Information Center / ATSDRIC@cdc.gov / 1-800-447-1544 You can get a detailed toxicological review from http://www.epa.gov/ngispgm3/iris/subst/0086.htm Hal Hal Levin hlevin@cruzio.com 2548 Empire Grade, Santa Cruz, CA 95060 408 425 3946 fax 408 426 6522 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 3 14:50:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13969 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:50:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08857; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:33:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08315 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08301 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:32:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.20] (blf20.acadia.net [205.217.217.20]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA18449 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:41:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 14:41:56 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Golf Courses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3844 You wrote: >A new golf course (scourge of the planet) will soon be built in my area. >The developers have asked for my advice about how they could diminish the >impact and make this course a "positive environmental statement". I said >just use it like it is - like they used to in Scotland - put your ball >down on the moor, swing your club, and follow the ball. They didn't >accept this sage advice. > >Does anyone have any good suggestions? > >John Abrams John, I like your sage advice the best. As a second choice, try to get them to hire Dan Kiley, the renowned landscape architect in Charlotte, Vermont. He is well known for talking clients out of building dumb stuff. As a third choice, try getting them to contact landscape architect Dean Lawrence in Belfast, Maine, 207-338-2325. Dean and his wife Andree run an organic farm. I don't know Dean that well, but I know that he understands ecology and he has designed golf courses. While I personally find these two stances contradictory, he may have something positive to offer. Good luck. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 3 18:33:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA19786 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:33:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17275; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:19:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:15:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA17088 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:15:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linguist (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17084 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:15:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.170] (ka3-170.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.170]) by linguist (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id SAA02325 for ; Fri, 3 Jul 1998 18:24:24 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Fri, 3 Jul 1998 09:08:20 -0400 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Rock wool? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id SAA17085 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3845 Hallo, all. So far in pricing rock wool I've been trying Canadian products which John Straube led me to (thanks, John). But the prices I'm getting are pretty high; I think that they're inflated by the distributors in between. So, does anyone know of a US manufacturer of a rock wool insulation which could be used in the roof and/or against foundation walls? Thanks. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jul 4 11:11:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA12975 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 11:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08953; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:57:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:53:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08522 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:52:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08508; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 10:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27330; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 09:01:01 -0600 Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 09:01:01 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: hydrogen peroxide Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3846 Has anyone personal experience, or knowledge of useful references on the above (if environmentally sound) for possible use in: 1) cleaning cistern water 2) personal health 3) aquaponic systems 4) treating greywater 5) other uses Would an organic source make any difference? I would like to try H2O2 in several applications, but would like to only get it from a company with a good environmental record. Comments welcomed. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jul 4 16:06:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA21264 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 16:06:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA17023; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 15:52:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Jul 1998 15:48:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16785 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 15:48:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16781 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 15:48:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Alisa (usr0a23.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.23]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA22522; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 15:57:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980704155939.006c5a60@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 15:59:39 -0400 To: Terry Brennan , greenbuilding From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: roof costs In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3847 Hey Terry, In Central Vermont you can get a standing seam roof for about $140 per square for galvanized steel. $150 per square for colored coil stock. These are near the low end and you have to watch the job. Around here though there are a lot of people who do it because of ice and they have to be competetive-Hope this is helpful info Danny Sagan , Randolph Ctr, VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jul 4 17:03:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA22547 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 17:03:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18612; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 16:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 4 Jul 1998 16:46:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA18393 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 16:45:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA18389 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 16:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA27447 for ; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 15:54:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md11-45.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.173) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma027426; Sat Jul 4 15:54:12 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980704165241.007242a8@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 1998 16:52:44 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: ASTM Residential Green Building Standard (3rd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3848 Update -- the ASTM Residential Green Building Standard (3rd ballot) ====== 3rd draft standard guide has been revised by the sub-committee and is being sent forward for another ballot. Expected ballot release: late August 1998 An "unofficial" pre-release copy in Adobe PDF can be obtained by visiting the following web site: ------------------------------ Legal Notice ---------------------------- Do NOT reprint or cite this copyrighted document, released from our web site under the 1986 Federal Library Act, expressly for non-profit use. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Discussion: The previous two ballot cycles were both about 75% affirmative, and the unresolved comments of the National Association of Home Builders, and the forest and paper products trade association have largely been resolved. As with all consensus standards, the resulting documents can be weaker than criteria desired by activists -- but my philosophy is that something on the table is better, at least for creating a framework to help avoid "green-wash" in residential marketing programs, and to help inform consumers, Realtors (TM), and code officials on what a residential green building is. Comments are welcome. Official Ballot: To register with ASTM to receive an official ballot, you will need to call the staff: Ms Susan Canning, ASTM (610) 832-9585 You do NOT have to be an ASTM member to get a ballot and comment on their documents (but it helps...). Regards, Bion Howard | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jul 5 02:27:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA08175 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 02:27:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA29962; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 02:13:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 5 Jul 1998 02:08:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA29582 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 02:08:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from neptune.imagen.net (neptune.imagen.net [204.244.138.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA29578 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 02:08:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.244.138.68] (ss9.imagen.net [204.244.138.68]) by neptune.imagen.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id 3B58W5Z1; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 23:18:52 -0700 X-Sender: elizwhite@mail.imagen.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 23:17:16 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: elizwhite@saltspring.com (Elizabeth White) Subject: GBlist: Light Pipes Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3849 Can anyone recommend a well-designed commercially available (in Canada) light pipe, i.e. tube skylight for residential use? (B.C. application.) Thanks Elizabeth White _______________ Elizabeth White, sustainable housing solutions (250) 537-2616, fax (250) 537-2681 elizwhite@saltspring.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jul 5 20:45:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA06538 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:45:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA25308; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:31:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:27:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA24977 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA24972 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:27:16 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id FVJRa20769; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:35:40 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <2131336b.35a01bde@aol.com> Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 20:35:40 EDT To: jabrams@vineyard.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: re:golf course design Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3850 John, In Rehoboth Massachusetts, a town with the unique distinction of more golf courses per capita than anywhere else in the US, you have to have an angle to develop yet another one. But there is an interesting one going up that is combining and interspersing golf greens, etc. with cranberry bogs. Scenic, agriculturally productive, shelters the bog and it's various concerns from residential applications, etc. Cranberries are currently the most profitable legal agricultural crop in the US. Your island is right on the edge of the cranberry processing infrastructre so it could be financially viable. Finally, Massachusetts waives all sorts of cumbersome land use regulations for cranberry growers so it would likely be cheaper for the developer to do a golf course in combination with a cranberry bog. Don't want to get into the politics of cranberries here, whether they are truly an important crop, the chemicals assosiated with their production, etc., but it is an idea to do something more productive with the land than have a bunch of bored guys wandering around in the grass chasing little balls. They can be beautiful as well, especially if necessary for the aesthetic pleasure of the golfers. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jul 5 22:55:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA09853 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 22:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29758; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 22:41:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 5 Jul 1998 22:38:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA29493 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 22:37:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA29486 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 22:37:56 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1WHUa26052 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 22:46:19 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <7d4e44bd.35a03a7c@aol.com> Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 22:46:19 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenhouse Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3851 Michael, I'd second everything Buzz wrote about the acre "solar" greenhouse on 6/19 except that I don't think half a million dollars would be nearly enough to do what you want to do.. I've been building sunrooms, greenhouses, conservatories, atriums, pool enclosures, passive solar greenhouses, skylights and various other glass boxes since 1976. I've been primarily responsible for the design and construction of over 150 of these structures, from the most funky hoop houses glazed in poly and kalwall to the most elaborate multifacetted mahogany and redwood structures you could imagine, glazed with the most exotic and expensive glass available. I can tell you with certainty that most of the manufactured products of the greenhouse and sunroom industry that evolved in the wake of the 1970's oil crunch were terrible. Most of the companies that aren't yet bankrupt still are terrible and should be. Despite being one of the better players in the industry, many of my projects, along with about 95% of the well intended sunrooms projects built over the last couple decades have significant problems with glass seal failure. Way too many have problems with poor solar heat management due to poor design, overheating by day and getting too cold at night. Many leak. Most have woefully inadequate ventilation. Problems are expensive to repair. At this point I advise anyone wanting to do a growing agricultural greenhouse to do the poly hoop house solution that Buzz described. If you want to do anything attached to a home, attractive and comfortable, budget at a minimum $150 per square foot of floor area. If sloped glazing is involved, there are several good systems available to deal with condensation and leaks. I wrote an article for Fine Homebuilding magazine several years ago that goes into the details. If you are truly set on putting an acre under glass, try to locate it next to a power plant so you can use the heat that would otherwise go to the cooling towers to heat the greenhouse. (I was involved in planning such a project that was associated with a large scale community greenhouse that never got adequate funding, though we had the support of the power company.) Alternatively plan on growing a crop with adequate cash flow to either pay for your heat in a hoop house or the much larger costs for the elaborate systems necessary for managing solar heat in such a structure. Better have some damn good growers on your staff. As for the community greenhouse idea, that's how I got started. Been involved in about ten of them, most long ago. All well intended noble idealists wanting to grow food, provide free heat, strengthen community, provide business opportunities etc. All were able to grab some sort of government or foundation cash in the good old Jimmy Carter days. The results: No one was ever personally invested in the success very much. Nobody's personal cash was on the line. Lots of squabbling, very little weeding. Lots of neglect, Lots of target practice for neighborhood kids improving their pitching skills with rocks. The only economic development that came close to matching all the ideals we wrote in the grant proposals was the guy who had a good marijuana crop growing in the middle of South Providence and was most grateful for the government subsidy. The most noble and successful of these experiments I ever saw was the Ark at the New Alchemy Institute, a tiny fraction of the size you are proposing. It worked wonderfully due to the careful multi year design process by well paid PhD designers and was operated by numerous subsidized full time horticulturalists. What was saddest about it for me was that all that creative thinking ignored the fundamental knowledge and experience of the building industry so the thing was rotting away on public display. A tourist attraction advertising the future we all believe in that gave a less than positive impression in my opinion, when the centerpiece was rotting and crumbling on public display. My advise is to set some more humble and achievable goals. Do things that people are personally invested in, responsible and on the line for. Try to learn from the mistakes of about twenty five years of many well intended people like me proclaiming that greenhouses were going to save the world. Do some well designed homes with some small well designed attached sunroom/greenhouses and separate out the large scale agriculture and noble communitarian dreams from the technology somewhat. I am sure all the other complexities of the relationships in the community you are proposing will be difficult enough without adding the difficulties of large scale greenhouse agriculture by amatuers. Your ideas are very well tried and there aren't a lot of success stories out there. Don't want to shatter your dreams, just want to help you make them achievable. Good luck, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jul 5 23:44:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11133 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 23:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA01127; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 23:31:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 5 Jul 1998 23:27:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA00864 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 23:27:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00858 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 23:27:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.21] (blf21.acadia.net [205.217.217.21]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA01572 for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 23:36:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 23:36:28 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Choosing clients! Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3852 You wrote: >Hi! > >I will be a graduate in Energy Efficient Building and am wondering the >kind of firms that would be interested to employ such an architect! > >The question here is, much like 'choosing clients', whether a recent >graduate should work for a usual architectural practice or a 'green' or >'energy conscious' practice? > >Is it the responsibility of the fresh graduates to propogate these ideas >in other than these kind of practices? > >Mohit Dear Mohit, What a great question! I wish that our own firm were more than a semi-impoverished two-person enterprise so that we could work with you. Think about working for a small firm rather than a large one, because you'll be offerred a broader range of tasks to do. If you join a very large firm, you may find that despite your experience you'll get to be the guy who draws toilet elevations for shopping centers all day long. But my advice would be to go spend at least three years doing construction before you become a full-time designer. Even if you have to be a day laborer and live on bread and cheese, you'll ultimately have a better career if your training includes some significant hands-on construction experience. Best of luck. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 6 08:55:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA23331 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:55:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13026; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:36:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12764 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12760 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:36:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61740; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 06:43:40 -0600 Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 06:43:39 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Elizabeth White Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Light/SunPipes In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3853 Elizabeth: We have used SunPipes (Chicago) with success. However, we have also made some generic improvements for Canadian climates that seem to be very helpful. "Light Pipes" (something else) are manufactured in Vancouver. Some copycat products are awful. ******************************************************************************** Jorg Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - sustainable homes & communities; commercial, institutional & office buildings - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Sat, 4 Jul 1998, Elizabeth White wrote: > > Can anyone recommend a well-designed commercially available (in Canada) > light pipe, i.e. tube skylight for residential use? (B.C. application.) > Thanks > > Elizabeth White > _______________ > Elizabeth White, sustainable housing solutions > (250) 537-2616, fax (250) 537-2681 > elizwhite@saltspring.com > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 6 09:02:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23509 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 09:02:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13410; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:48:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:45:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA13159 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:45:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aries.wise.net (aries.wise.net [206.29.198.135]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13155 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 08:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.wise.net (actually host 206.29.198.73) by aries.wise.net with SMTP (XT-PP); Mon, 6 Jul 1998 06:53:35 -0600 Received: from dotnetgw3-Message_Server by mail3.wise.net with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 06 Jul 1998 06:50:45 -0600 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 06:44:34 -0600 From: Thomas Hartman To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Pentachlorophenol Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3854 How will this affect black bears?? I know this sounds obtuse, but I went on a bear tracking trip last month in NH and learned that telephone poles are the prefered marking trees, right behind hemlock. The guide has reasoned that it was the creosote that attracted them. Perhaps this will change their habits, or is the motivation for the pentachlorophenol. The bears often chew right through the pole and force them to be prematurely replaced. >>> Hal Levin 07/03/98 02:35PM >>> Joshua: The bottom line is that it is not nice stuff. Its use was severely restricted by EPA in the mid 1980s, and its global production was halved. It causes all kinds of nasty effects and is not longer permitted to be used as a wood preservative indoors or in materials that agricultural animals can contact - buildings, fencing, containers. It lasts a very long time due to its low volatility. Utility workers are at risk from their exposures and should wear gloves, long sleeves, etc. to avoid direct skin contact, since it is absorbed through the skin. I can give you more information if you need it, but check out the information below and see if they don't answer your questions. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 6 10:33:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26507 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:33:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18142; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:19:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:15:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17820 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:15:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from moose.co.uk (moose.co.uk [195.166.48.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17815 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:15:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [192.168.1.100] (195.166.49.242) by moose.co.uk with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Mon, 6 Jul 1998 15:20:45 +0100 Received: from 192.168.1.87 by 192.168.1.100 with SMTP (QuickMail Pro Server for MacOS 1.0.2); 06 JUL 98 15:27:16 UT Date: 06 Jul 98 15:24:15 +0000 From: Tom Dine Subject: RE: GBlist: Light Pipes To: elizwhite , greenbuilding X-Mailer: QuickMail Pro 1.5 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Reply-To: Tom Dine Disposition-Notification-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="====55555252515750534956===1" Message-ID: <1312384046-11402593@moose.co.uk> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3855 --====55555252515750534956===1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Try Heliobus at http://www.Heliobus.com elizwhite wrote: >Can anyone recommend a well-designed commercially available (in Canada) >light pipe, i.e. tube skylight for residential use? (B.C. application.) >Thanks > >Elizabeth White >_______________ >Elizabeth White, sustainable housing solutions >(250) 537-2616, fax (250) 537-2681 >elizwhite@saltspring.com > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > > >RFC822 header >----------------------------------- > >RECEIVED: from SF_Database by POP_Mailbox_-1312497327 ; 05 JUL 98 07:52:49 UT >Return-Path: >Return-Path: >Received: from solstice.crest.org (208.202.27.10) by the650.moose.co.uk with > ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Sun, 5 Jul 1998 07:32:24 +0100 >Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) > by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA29638; > Sun, 5 Jul 1998 02:09:35 -0400 (EDT) >Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 5 Jul 1998 >02:08:57 -0400 >Received: (from majordom@localhost) > by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA29582 > for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 02:08:30 -0400 (EDT) >Received: from neptune.imagen.net (neptune.imagen.net [204.244.138.19]) > by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA29578 > for ; Sun, 5 Jul 1998 02:08:26 -0400 (EDT) >Received: from [204.244.138.68] (ss9.imagen.net [204.244.138.68]) by >neptune.imagen.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) > id 3B58W5Z1; Sat, 4 Jul 1998 23:18:52 -0700 >X-Sender: elizwhite@mail.imagen.net >Message-Id: >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Sat, 4 Jul 1998 23:17:16 -0800 >To: greenbuilding@crest.org >From: elizwhite@saltspring.com (Elizabeth White) >Subject: GBlist: Light Pipes >Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org >Precedence: bulk > --====55555252515750534956===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Try Heliobus at http://www.Heliobus.com
elizwhite wrote:

>Can anyone recommend a well-designed commercially available (in Canada)
>light pipe, i.e. tube skylight for residential use? (B.C. application.)
>Thanks
>
>Elizabeth White
>_______________
>Elizabeth White, sustainable housing solutions
>(250) 537-2616, fax (250) 537-2681
>
elizwhite@saltspring.com
>
>
>______________________________________________________________________
>This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST <www.crest.org>
>Environmental Building News <www.ebuild.com> and Oikos <www.oikos.com>
>For instructions send e-mail to
greenbuilding-request@crest.org.
>______________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>RFC822 header
>-----------------------------------
>
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--====55555252515750534956===1-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 6 10:39:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26650 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:39:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19171; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:25:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:21:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18325 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:20:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18312 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:20:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA1-a17.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.146]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA08529 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:29:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35A0DDE9.3989E3F7@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 10:23:37 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Choosing a client Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3856 David M. Foley wrote: > But my advice would be to go spend at least three years doing construction > before you become a full-time designer. Even if you have to be a day > laborer and live on bread and cheese, you'll ultimately have a better > career if your training includes some significant hands-on construction > experience. Best of luck. I can't agree with David's wisdom more, I have always believed that some minimum period of REAL construction experience should be a prerequisite of licensing. Not just 3 months, but something like the 3 years David mentioned. Of the architects I've worked with over the years, those with actual construction knowledge consistently provide the most workable designs and construction documents. They are also always more approachable and adaptable, they understand that on site realities are different than the office environment. The physical realities of building sites, materials and conditions, simply don't exist in this generation of CAD programs. Those limitation are doubly true in the sterile world of the drafting board, there we have no restraints at all, our flights of fancy have no limitations. Any architect who believes that their training is complete after 3 years of school and a year drawing toilet elevations is seriously short changing their clients. Yes, many of them spent a couple of summers working in the trailer at some construction site or helped build an addition on a friends house, but few have committed any *real* time to the actual object of their profession, the building. Mohit, choose your path wisely, the last thing this world needs is another arrogant, self-absorbed prima donna who will see her/his vision, no matter what the rest of the members of the team have to say. Remember, you are one member of a team, trying to pull together numerous elements to make the project *work*. Knowledge is never restricting, it only stimulates creative freedom. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 6 10:40:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26698 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:40:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19415; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:26:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:22:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18487 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:21:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc513.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18473 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:21:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from IEL#u#MAIL-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 06 Jul 1998 10:31:37 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 10:31:09 -0400 From: "Arnie Katz" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: GBlist: Rock wool? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAA18475 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3857 Speireag Alden wrote: " So, does anyone know of a US manufacturer of a rock wool insulation which could be used in the roof and/or against foundation walls?" There's one here in North Carolina--American Rockwool in Spring Hope, NC. Directory Assistance for Area Code 252 should get you the number. Also, you could get a national list from the North American Insulation Manufacturers Association, 703/684-0084. Arnie Katz Building Science Specialist Advanced Energy 909 Capability Drive Raleigh, NC 27606 919/857-9029 FAX: 919/832-2696 akatz@aec.ncsu.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 6 12:41:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00937 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:41:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27835; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:27:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:23:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA27292 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:22:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA27279 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA25249 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:32:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esy16.vineyard.net(206.166.158.146) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id smaa25071; Mon Jul 6 12:31:40 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:46:01 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: Golf Courses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3858 Thanks to all for the fine golf course intelligence I received in response to my inquiry. Very useful. I think it will have some real impact on the developers in question. Now, lemme ask you a question about go-kart tracks. . . . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 6 13:21:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA02468 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:21:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00444; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:08:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:04:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00080 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:04:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00076 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 13:03:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA25026 for ; Mon, 06 Jul 1998 13:13:06 -0400 Message-id: <3853185@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 06 Jul 98 13:13:11 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Rock wool? To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3859 I did a non-ASTM test when comparing Roxul with an "or equal" USGyp product which met the same ASTM test for water absorption. I weighted them both down in a bucket of water overnight with a brick. In the morning, the USG product was like a sponge, and the Roxul popped up like a balloon. It's amazingly hydrophobic. I told the CM and architect that the Roxul was what we wanted. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 6 16:51:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA29525 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:51:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12660; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:37:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:33:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA12214 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA12198; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.237.106.24] (usrts3p24.port.net [207.237.106.24]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA09664; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:41:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807062041.QAA09664@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: GBlist: Waterproofing sealer Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 16:42:13 -0000 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" , "EEBA List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3860 To all: I am looking for a clear waterproofing/sealer product ( for an outdoor brick chimney) superior in preformance to Thompsons et al. Has anyone here used alternative products successfully? Also does anyone know if ordinary portland cement is an acceptable material to use around the tile flues as they exit & terminate at the top of the chimney or is a furnace cement required? A traditional bluestone cap sits up above, on three couses of brick. Any advise or leads would be helpful and appreciated. Thanks ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 6 17:28:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA03838 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:28:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14519; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:15:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:11:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14224 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:11:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14219 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:11:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on8-18.netcom.ca [209.146.133.18]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA09926; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807062118.RAA09926@tor-smtp2.netcom.ca> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 16:10:15 -0400 To: "C. Dodge" From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Waterproofing sealer Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <199807062041.QAA09664@amsterdam.interport.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3861 There's a product called "Chimney Saver" that's used by a lot of chimney sweeps. Look for a sweep who is certified by C.S.I.A. or by his state or national guild - its no guarantee, but it weeds out a lot of the fly-by-night outfits. At 04:42 PM 06/07/98 +0000, you wrote: >To all: > >I am looking for a clear waterproofing/sealer product ( for an outdoor >brick chimney) superior in preformance to Thompsons et al. Has anyone >here used alternative products successfully? >Also does anyone know if ordinary portland cement is an acceptable >material to use around the tile flues as they exit & terminate at the top >of the chimney or is a furnace cement required? A traditional bluestone >cap sits up above, on three couses of brick. > > Any advise or leads would be helpful and appreciated. > >Thanks >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 6 17:32:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA04326 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14903; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:15:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14536 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:15:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14528 for ; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:15:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on8-18.netcom.ca [209.146.133.18]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA10919; Mon, 6 Jul 1998 17:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807062122.RAA10919@tor-smtp2.netcom.ca> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 16:14:23 -0400 To: "C. Dodge" From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Waterproofing sealer -addendum Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <199807062041.QAA09664@amsterdam.interport.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3862 Addendum: There are also a number of products designed specifically for repairing chimney crowns. They are often elastomeric latex acrylics, similar to the acrylic stuccos. ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 7 02:18:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA24017 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 02:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA08505; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 02:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Jul 1998 01:59:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA07542 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 01:58:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA07538; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 01:58:50 -0400 (EDT) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: from ANovelli@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id RMSOa13457; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 02:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 02:06:51 EDT To: dcat@azstarnet.com, Strawnet@aol.com, spears@azstarnet.com, iicd@hotmail.com, unispan@azstarnet.com, ClosFree@aol.com, mlayseca@flash.net, jjoyce@azstarnet.com, ANovelli@aol.com Cc: Ionova@sierratel.com, bioenergy@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: "Conservative" "thinking?" Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3863 Here is a post from todays wire. Where are the league of conservation voters et al. to make a hit list of these representatives? I think we need a form letter stating, in no uncertain terms, that votes for such restriction in education and research are unconstitutional, illogical, unethical, and will be fought with a concerted effort in this years election. We only lose these battles because we don't mobilize and motivate... what are we waiting for? Is not the acknowledgement in the NY TImes of the huge lobbying for these not-so-secret anti-Kyoto actions enough of a slap in the face? Pissed as hell, Tony Novelli ____________________ Copyright 1998 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press. Climate Control Efforts Stalled By H. JOSEF HEBERT .c The Associated Press WASHINGTON (AP) - A backlash in Congress over an international treaty on global warming is threatening to hamstring federal environmental agencies from addressing climate change and may bar officials from even discussing the issue. Shortly before Congress adjourned for its July 4th holiday recess, lawmakers slashed nearly $200 million earmarked for energy efficiency and research into renewable technologies and signaled no interest in President Clinton's $6.3 billion, five-year climate initiative. Critics of these programs said they wanted to prevent the Clinton administration from pushing the objectives of the climate treaty negotiated in Kyoto, Japan, in December before the accord is considered by the Senate. ``I want to keep the treaty from being implemented - front door or back door,'' said Rep. Joe Knollenberg, R-Mich., who drafted some of the restrictive language, and has been a strong critic of the Kyoto agreement. Clinton has ruled out sending the treaty to Congress this year, fearing prompt rejection. But what worries senior administration officials are attempts by lawmakers to bar the Environmental Protection Agency and White House environmental advisers from doing virtually anything to advance the climate debate - even talking about it in planning sessions or in public forums. A spending bill awaiting final House and Senate action would order the EPA and the White House Council on Environmental Quality not to conduct education or information seminars on global warming, or spend any money in ``contemplation'' of the Kyoto treaty being ratified. ``The bill could stifle any informed debate on global warming,'' EPA Administrator Carol Browner says. She argues her agency would be prevented from giving the public even general information about the global warming issue. Todd Stern, White House coordinator on global warming, questioned, for example, whether a White House conference on climate change that brought experts together to discuss the issue with Clinton and Vice President Al Gore last year could have been held under the restrictions. The White House also may not have been able to invite more than 100 television weathermen - as it did last fall - to discuss global warming, Stern said. The fallout over global warming is having ``a chilling effect on a whole range of very legitimate energy, clean air and climate-related activities,'' said Rep. David Skaggs, D-Colo., who unsuccessfully sought to remove the restrictions. The Kyoto agreement calls on the United States and other industrial countries to curb heat-trapping greenhouse gases, mainly by slowing down the growing amount of carbon dioxide released into the atmosphere from burning fossil fuels. Lobbyists from fossil energy industries contend the administration is trying to put the squeeze on electric utilities and the coal industry in anticipation of a climate treaty. Burning coal accounts for much of the carbon dioxide, the No. 1 heat-trapping greenhouse gas targeted by the Kyoto accord. ``There's no question they're trying to make an end run of Congress,'' insists Robert E. Murray, president of the American Coal Co. At a congressional hearing earlier this month, he characterized global warming as a ``hoax.'' Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., chairman of the House Science Committee, said there already was evidence the EPA was trying to regulate carbon dioxide as a pollutant to meet Kyoto's objectives. A critic of the Kyoto accord, Sensenbrenner cited EPA plans to analyze how carbon dioxide emissions affect pollution from power plants. EPA officials, denying any link to the Kyoto treaty, said the carbon dioxide analysis was part of a broader effort to find ``how to most effectively reduce harmful mercury emissions.'' ``To suggest that this analysis is anything other than an attempt to find the most commonsense, cost-effective way to protect public health is simply not true,'' EPA spokeswoman Loretta Ucelli said. The White House called allegations of a ``backdoor'' Kyoto agenda nonsense and that ``commonsense steps'' to promote energy efficiency and develop renewable energy technologies were prudent regardless of the treaty. ``The fact that (these programs) also reduce greenhouse gases does not turn them into backdoor implementation,'' Stern said in an interview. ``Allegations that we are engaged in or trying to accomplish any kind of backdoor implementation is completely and totally unfounded.'' AP-NY-07-07-98 0155EDT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 7 08:03:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA15793 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:03:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA15369; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:49:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:45:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA15037 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA15033 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 07:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.45]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3223900 ; Tue, 07 Jul 1998 08:38:12 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980707074717.006986cc@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 07:47:17 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: Re: GBlist: Golf Courses Cc: John Abrams In-Reply-To: <199807070600.CAA07857@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3864 John, you might want to check out the July-August 1998 issue of AUDUBON magazine )published by the National Audubon Society). There is an article on the environmental impacts of golf courses. Seems to be full of contacts who have been working on the issue. If you can't find a copy give me a call and I'll fax you the article. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 7 10:05:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA21797 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:05:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19523; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:51:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:47:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19116 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:47:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ci.portland.or.us (pdxnet.ci.portland.or.us [207.109.34.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19108 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 09:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linux1.bis.city (root@linux1.bis.city [10.80.1.15]) by ci.portland.or.us (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id GAA72394 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 06:56:13 -0700 Received: from issd1.bis.city (issd1.bis.city [10.80.1.16]) by linux1.bis.city (8.7.3/8.7.1) with SMTP id GAA13576 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 06:54:27 -0700 Received: from Portland-Message_Server by issd1.bis.city with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 07 Jul 1998 06:56:53 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 07:01:53 -0700 From: Curt Nichols To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Golf Courses -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3865 John__ If you're still looking for input on Golf Courses, I heard a preview for the "Living on Earth" show on our local NPR radio station last night. It seems that the current week's show focuses on golf courses and the environment. Check your local NPR station(s) for their schedule. Or, log into the NPR web site and see what they have on it. Good luck, Curt Curt Nichols Portland Energy Office ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 7 10:24:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22433 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:24:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21550; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:10:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:06:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20672 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:05:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20666 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:05:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.237.105.165] (usrts2p165.port.net [207.237.105.165]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA23722 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:14:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807071414.KAA23722@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Waterproofing sealer -addendum Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:15:10 -0000 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3866 Norbert >There are also a number of products designed specifically for repairing >chimney crowns. They are often elastomeric latex acrylics, similar to the >acrylic stuccos. This sounds like the right stuff for me. >here's a product called "Chimney Saver" that's used by a lot of chimney >sweeps. Look for a sweep who is certified by C.S.I.A. or by his state or >national guild - its no guarantee, but it weeds out a lot of the >fly-by-night outfits. This is a project I'd like to handle myself with the correct products. Since I've had other water seapage problems thru brick in other buildings (100 yr old load bearing brick walls) I'm kinda determined to find a sealer that works this time. But looks like the crown sealer and chimney saver products are only available in 5 gal quantities. More than I need. Maybe I will just let the sweep do the job. THanks, Norbert Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 7 10:24:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22551 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:24:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21645; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:11:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:06:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20691 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20674 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:05:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.237.105.165] (usrts2p165.port.net [207.237.105.165]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA23740 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:14:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807071414.KAA23740@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: RE: GBlist: Waterproofing sealer Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:15:15 -0000 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3867 Lane >We like ProSoCo's Weather Seal line of products. ProSoCO........Professional Software Co? odd name for a building products outfit. I visited their web site and the Sweets listing. Their sealer appears to be same siloxane base as the Chimney Saver others have mentioned here. appears this is the way to go. Thanks for your informed reply. >I assume you are talking about a masonry cement wash around the flue pipes >to encourage water to drain away from the joint at the pipe. Usually, >these are created with the same mortar that the bricks are laid in. >I >assume you are talking about a masonry cement wash around the flue pipes Yes, that is correct. Although the elastic qualities of the acrylic crown repair products brought to my attention here by Norbert also has appeal. If I can't find the acrylic in small enough quantity I'll fall back on the mortar mix you suggest without the lab work since this chimney is only thirty years old. Clarence ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 7 10:25:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22653 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:25:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21688; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:11:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:07:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20726 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:06:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20714 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:06:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA10-p25.dreamscape.com [209.4.252.217]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA25976 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:15:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35A22BF9.12D10D74@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 10:08:57 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: "Conservative" thinking Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3868 Tony, Perhaps the word "thinking" should be in quotes rather than conservative, the notion that the opponents of climate discussion or energy conservation are thinking on anything above a rudimentary brainstem level is a major error. They degree of thinking involved here extends to the synapse connected to their next "meal ticket". I absolutely support your call for a strong public outcry in opposition of this kind of blatant, self serving, political hacking. Writing condemnation letters to the supporters of these restrictions is of limited use, but strong letters of support for those members of the legislature who are in favor of open, enlightened policy may help bolster the cause much more. We should find out how our elected reprsentatives voted on this issue and let them know in no uncertain terms exactly how we feel about their votes. This type of forum, the Greenbuilding list, besides being an important learning tool for it's members, can also act as an amplifier for the opinions evolved here. The internet is the greatest forum for political change we have yet devised, it's potential to sway public opinion is barely tapped. I hope the members of this list will do more than sit back a bitch about the idiocy we see in Washington, or where ever and make the effort make their voices heard once more. I just read yesterday about a group of teenage hackers who have launched some pretty impressive protests against Nukes using the internet as their stage. We may not understand the medium as well as they do, but have we lost all of our youthful fire as well? I suggest we start by finding the addresses of our own representatives and then find out who voted for which side of the issue. I think we should also write to David Skaggs, D Colo. and show our support. Are we hippies or are we yuppies? Or have we just forgotten who we are? To the Bastille! Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 7 10:36:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA23157 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22409; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:22:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:18:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22018 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:18:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22013 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:18:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA10-p25.dreamscape.com [209.4.252.217]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA00290 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:27:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35A22ED3.933C96DA@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 10:21:07 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: search tools Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3869 Here are some search tools that will help you contact the right people. http://www.askjeeves.com/AskJeeves.asp?ask=senator+%26+representative&qSource=0&site_name=Jeeves&metasearch=yes&AskJeeves.x=15&AskJeeves.y=13 Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 7 12:02:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26149 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27554; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:48:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:45:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27196 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:45:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ci.portland.or.us (pdxnet.ci.portland.or.us [207.109.34.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27181 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 11:44:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linux1.bis.city (root@linux1.bis.city [10.80.1.15]) by ci.portland.or.us (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA76290 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:53:58 -0700 Received: from issd1.bis.city (issd1.bis.city [10.80.1.16]) by linux1.bis.city (8.7.3/8.7.1) with SMTP id IAA14967 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 08:52:11 -0700 Received: from Portland-Message_Server by issd1.bis.city with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 07 Jul 1998 08:54:42 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 09:00:04 -0700 From: Curt Nichols To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Conservative "Thinking" -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3870 Chuck, Tony__ Here's something that can help us take up the charge against these budget cuts. Let's change their minds... Curt Curt Nichols Portland Energy Office _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ LEGISLATIVE ALERT: IMMEDIATE ACTION NEEDED! FUNDING CUTS THREATEN ENERGY EFFICIENCY PROGRAMS WE NEED YOUR SUPPORT for the Fox-Skaggs Energy Efficiency Amendment to the House Interior bill to restore funding for energy efficiency programs The FY99 House Interior Appropriations bill cuts energy efficiency funding $25 million below FY98 and $200 million below the President's request. These cuts will undermine DOE's Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy's ability to develop new energy efficiency technologies, to work with the private sector to deploy that technology, and to foster energy efficiency activities in the states. Representatives Jon Fox (R-PA) and David Skaggs (D-CO), and several other members, will be offering a bi-partisan amendment to restore these critical funds. The Interior bill is expected to come to the House floor on July 16. Contact your Representatives; urge colleagues and members of your association to contact their Representatives -- ask them to cosponsor and support the Fox-Skaggs Energy Efficiency Amendment to the Interior Appropriations bill. Tell them: Energy efficiency is the foundation of sound national energy policy. The cost of foreign oil is low at the pump, but the cost to the nation is high. The U.S. imports more than 50% of its oil. Former CIA Director James Woolsey noted recently that "the security of the United States and the global economy is put seriously at risk by the world's growing dependence on imported oil..." Investments in energy efficiency technologies reduce energy consumption and reduce the security threat created by our dependence on imported energy. Energy efficiency programs are wise government investments. Earlier this year, the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology (PCAST) reported that R&D investments in energy efficiency are the most cost-effective way to simultaneously reduce the risks of climate change, oil import interruption, and regional air pollution, and to improve the productivity of the economy. The PCAST report estimates the benefit to the U.S. economy of the broad range of energy efficiency measures we have employed at over $150 billion per year. Energy efficiency is a cost-effective approach to protecting the environment. Energy production and use are major contributors to air pollution. Development and deployment of energy efficiency technologies directly enhance environmental quality and reduce emissions of multiple pollutants, including sulfur dioxide, particulates, and NOx. While energy efficiency also reduces greenhouse gases, these established programs were generating economic and environmental benefits long before the Kyoto Protocol was conceived. Continued funding of energy efficiency IS NOT "back-door implementation" of the Kyoto Protocol. Call or write to your Representative today; urge him/her to cosponsor and support the Fox Energy Efficiency Amendment to the Interior Appropriations bill on July 16. Ask for your Representative at the Capitol Hill Switchboard: 202/224-3121 Or Write to your Representative at: The House of Representatives Washington, D.C. 20515 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 7 14:40:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA03438 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:40:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06823; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:21:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA06392 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06384 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:21:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 18641 invoked from network); 7 Jul 1998 18:30:20 -0000 Received: from usero593.uk.uudial.com (HELO ) (193.149.89.101) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 7 Jul 1998 18:30:20 -0000 Message-ID: <35A1F6A9.4DAC@dial.pipex.com> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 10:21:29 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ANovelli@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: "Conservative" "thinking?" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3871 ANovelli@aol.com wrote: > ....I think we need a form letter stating, in no uncertain terms, that > votes for such restriction in education and research are > unconstitutional, illogical, unethical, and will be fought with a > concerted effort in this years election....[followed by quote from Associated Press:] > Climate Control Efforts Stalled > By H. JOSEF HEBERT > ....attempts by lawmakers to bar the Environmental Protection Agency > and White House environmental advisers from doing virtually anything > to advance the climate debate - even talking about it in planning > sessions or in public forums.... Go for it, Tony. It would appear from their actions to censor and stifle debate that the fossil fuel industries know they've lost the scientific argument. It's vital that they lose the public argument, too, if disaster after disaster is to be prevented. And if you are aware of any way in which international action can help you to bring sanity to your country's decision-making process, there's plenty of us out here who would be pleased to help... Mark Bigland-Pritchard hyphen@dial.pipex.com Bristol, England ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 7 20:58:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA15532 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA25478; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:40:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA25110 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:40:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA25105 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:40:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Sporky23@aol.com Received: from Sporky23@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1SWAa02268 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:49:07 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 20:49:07 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Ondura Roofing Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3872 Hey, has anyone else had any problems with dealing with the Ondura Roofing company? If so, could you e-mail me please? - Luke Griffiths Sporky23@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 7 21:57:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17078 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:57:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA27589; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:43:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:39:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA27240 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:39:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA27236 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:39:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.248] (ka4-248.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.248]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00102; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:48:23 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 17:20:11 -0400 To: John Straube , Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Sound Attenuation Barriers Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id VAA27237 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3873 Hallo, all. In my search for a reasonable price on rock wool insulation, I called Fibrex. The person whom I spoke with there listened to my needs (ceiling insulation) and recommended that I call the distributors and request "sound attenuation barriers". They have less density than Roxul's TopRock, ß…but they cost a lot less. So, I did, and I now have a firm price of $.43 per square foot for something four inches thick, which compares rather favorably with TopRock ($2.00 per square foot). Before I start celebrating, does anyone have any input on using sound attenuation barriers in this way? I plan to put them between 2x10's, laid at 16 or 24 inches, on-center. They'll be over the cathedral ceiling decking and the moisture barrier, and under plywood, Bituthene, and a bale living roof. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 7 22:15:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA17563 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:15:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA28502; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:01:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:57:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA28140 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:57:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28135 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 21:57:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA16272; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:06:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esy19.vineyard.net(206.166.158.150) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma016262; Tue Jul 7 22:06:49 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:09:59 -0400 To: Sporky23@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: Ondura Roofing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3874 >Hey, has anyone else had any problems with dealing with the Ondura Roofing >company? If so, could you e-mail me please? > > - Luke Griffiths > Sporky23@aol.com I'd be interested to hear about the problems you've had with Ondura and also to hear what anyone else can tell me about the product (good 'n bad). Thanks, John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 7 22:25:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA17823 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:25:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29205; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:12:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:08:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28816 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:08:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28811 for ; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:08:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03572; Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:17:23 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:17:22 EDT From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Sound Attenuation Barriers To: Speireag Alden cc: Green Building List X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id WAA28813 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3875 On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, Speireag Alden wrote: > In my search for a reasonable price on rock wool insulation, I called > Fibrex. The person whom I spoke with there listened to my needs (ceiling > insulation) and recommended that I call the distributors and request "sound > attenuation barriers". They have less density than Roxul's TopRock, ß…but > they cost a lot less. > So, I did, and I now have a firm price of $.43 per square foot for > something four inches thick, which compares rather favorably with TopRock > ($2.00 per square foot). > Before I start celebrating, does anyone have any input on using sound > attenuation barriers in this way? I plan to put them between 2x10's, laid > at 16 or 24 inches, on-center. They'll be over the cathedral ceiling > decking and the moisture barrier, and under plywood, Bituthene, and a bale > living roof. There is nothing magical about this. The SAB is simply lower desnity, closer to batt insulation (it is about 2 pcf). the TopRock is over 10 pcf. Five times the material, five times the price. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 8 02:20:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA24116 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA12185; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:06:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:00:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA11355 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:00:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nexus.idirect.com (nexus.idirect.com [207.136.80.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA11322 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:00:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ts6-33t-23.idirect.com (ts6-33t-23.idirect.com [209.161.226.23]) by nexus.idirect.com (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id CAA07756 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:09:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980708012307.4577f5e8@idirect.com> X-Sender: dmonk@idirect.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 01:23:07 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Dmonk Subject: GBlist: Passive Solar Technology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3876 This may be a stupid question, but I'll post it anyway. The only way to learn is by trying. Here's the background: There is a guy with the name of Nick Pine who has been advocating an idea called a solar closet. Basically, It is a super-insulated room that stores heat from an airheater which is located at the rear of a low-thermal mass sunspace. I think it was inspired by similar Malcolm Wells designs. Nick provides some numbers on thing(ie. energy balances, that sort of thing) that seem too good to be true. Anyway, I decided to model it myself (I'm a mech eng) using as accurate an approach as possible(without going into ridiculous convection algorithms) and the results remained good. The solar closet should, in theory, be able to provide 100% space heating, and hot water for more or less any normal sized house. It solves the cloudy day problem. I'm currently upgrading my model so that it can take TMY2 data from any location, in order to be as accurate as possible about the potential applications. (At the moment the way I am treating night/day and seasons is crude). My questions: How come architects/engineers believe that 100% passive solar is unfeasible? What steps does one need to do to "prove" a technology. How does one go about getting a new technology integrated into the marketplace? How does one gain the confidence of greenbuilders (re: this idea) to a level where they would be willing to recommend it? Thanks, Dave ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 8 03:40:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA26563 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 03:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA14700; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 03:26:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Jul 1998 03:22:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA14447 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 03:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA14443 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 03:22:24 -0400 (EDT) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: from ANovelli@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1OGYa20770; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 03:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3f7ee322.35a3202b@aol.com> Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 03:30:50 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: ANovelli@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Conservative "thinking"- Next Steps? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3877 I am heartened by the responses I've seen on the list, and in private messages. One person wrote who was upset with my language, and for that I apologize. It is a difficult challenge to be civil in the face of the most heartless incivility and purposeful wrongdoing, though I guess I honestly am more upset about the fact that most people swallow this swill. But onward. There have been good suggestions for moving forward. Most center around written replies of support for those fighting this tax cut, or varying levels of response to its supporters. I would like to discuss the makings of a letter, perhaps from this list or a portion who would sign on to it. This discussion can be directed to myself, or to the list, as the group sees fit. How about a few of us present a draft(s) to the list in the next week or so. Any takers? And if someone can get a list together of all the addresses for the senators and representatives (and it would be cool if we could list the supporters separate from the detractors of the tax cut), we'll be a step closer. Again, my best wishes and gratitude for your response. And may we be reminded of the most challenging idea I know of, and which a dear friend in Tucson taught me: There is no THEM. Peace, Tony Novelli ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 8 03:46:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA24116 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA12185; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:06:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:00:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA11355 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:00:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nexus.idirect.com (nexus.idirect.com [207.136.80.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA11322 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:00:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ts6-33t-23.idirect.com (ts6-33t-23.idirect.com [209.161.226.23]) by nexus.idirect.com (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id CAA07756 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 02:09:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980708012307.4577f5e8@idirect.com> X-Sender: dmonk@idirect.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 01:23:07 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Dmonk Subject: GBlist: Passive Solar Technology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3878 This may be a stupid question, but I'll post it anyway. The only way to learn is by trying. Here's the background: There is a guy with the name of Nick Pine who has been advocating an idea called a solar closet. Basically, It is a super-insulated room that stores heat from an airheater which is located at the rear of a low-thermal mass sunspace. I think it was inspired by similar Malcolm Wells designs. Nick provides some numbers on thing(ie. energy balances, that sort of thing) that seem too good to be true. Anyway, I decided to model it myself (I'm a mech eng) using as accurate an approach as possible(without going into ridiculous convection algorithms) and the results remained good. The solar closet should, in theory, be able to provide 100% space heating, and hot water for more or less any normal sized house. It solves the cloudy day problem. I'm currently upgrading my model so that it can take TMY2 data from any location, in order to be as accurate as possible about the potential applications. (At the moment the way I am treating night/day and seasons is crude). My questions: How come architects/engineers believe that 100% passive solar is unfeasible? What steps does one need to do to "prove" a technology. How does one go about getting a new technology integrated into the marketplace? How does one gain the confidence of greenbuilders (re: this idea) to a level where they would be willing to recommend it? Thanks, Dave ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 8 07:35:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA01884 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA20380; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:21:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:18:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA20088 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:18:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA20081 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 07:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id HAA05971 for ; Wed, 08 Jul 1998 07:27:05 -0400 Message-id: <3873621@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 08 Jul 98 07:27:12 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Technology To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id HAA20082 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3879 --- You wrote: There is a guy with the name of Nick Pine who has been advocating an idea called a solar closet. Basically, It is a super-insulated room that stores heat from an airheater which is located at the rear of a low-thermal mass sunspace. I think it was inspired by similar Malcolm Wells designs. Nick provides some numbers on thing(ie. energy balances, that sort of thing) that seem too good to be true. Anyway, I decided to model it myself (I'm a mech eng) using as accurate an approach as possible(without going into ridiculous convection algorithms) and the results remained good. The solar closet should, in theory, be able to provide 100% space heating, and hot water for more or less any normal sized house. It solves the cloudy day problem. I'm currently upgrading my model so that it can take TMY2 data from any location, in order to be as accurate as possible about the potential applications. (At the moment the way I am treating night/day and seasons is crude). --- end of quote --- I could write a long post about this, but here's the gist: I spent literally days looking at Nick Pine's claims in early 1996. He conveniently ignores several things: - he assumes house heat loads way below anything you've ever seen built (like 100 BTU/hr/F for a 3000 ft2 house - the house we did in Hanover NH has a heat loss of about 200 BTU/hr/F for 1800 ft2, and is one of the most superinsulated houses in the country.) - he assumes that monthly average weather is sufficient to do calculations - if I do calculations his way, the Hanover house is easily 100% solar. Unfortunately, with 4 seasons of actual data, this ain't so (see EBN Feb '98). The house has performed very close to the computer model prediction we did. - he assumes about 2 days worth of thermal storage - way below adequate - have you ever seen weather strings where the sun doesn't appear for a week? - he begins his modeling with a fully charged storage - in practice, there isn't enough solar surplus as you head into the winter to charge a large mass - our detailed simulation model predicted that our 10,000 lbs of water storage would drop in temp in early winter, in the first long cloudy spell, and never get charged up hot again until February. This is just what happens. - he models the Solar Closet assuming the temperatures in the collector, the air being circulated, and the storage are all the same. You can't get heat transfer without a temperature difference (at least without a change in state!). I found Nick Pine to be arrogant, derogatory towards all architects and engineers, and unwilling to look at the honest critiques of his ideas. He has never built a house. He convinces people without the technical ability and experience to analyze the fallacies in his logic, and bamboozles them with lots of math, making it look like he is doing analysis. The people who have built houses approaching 100% solar have needed to use about 3 times as much collection area as Nick pine assumes will give 100% solar, and have many days of thermal storage. Norman Saunders' work is the best example. Norman always said that to reach 100% solar, you designed for the average December, then added 30% to cover variations in weather. (And he told at least some clients, you may have to bake cookies in some situations!) I told Nick Pine, build a full scale Solar Closet house, monitor it, and publish the results. That's how he could prove his technology. My advice is don't waste any more time with him. I already did. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 8 08:32:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA03185 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:32:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21802; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:14:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21533 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:14:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21529 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 08:14:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA06551 for ; Wed, 08 Jul 1998 08:23:45 -0400 Message-id: <3874212@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 08 Jul 98 08:23:52 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Re: passive solar again To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3880 Listers - I was feeling badly about the anger/frustration that seeped into my reply to Dave Monk about Nick Pine. Perhaps I should expand a bit - I went into that inquiry with him with a sincere interest in learning about something new and better than what I already knew. Those of you who know me know that I am always happy to use someone else's ideas - whatever works! Once I saw the glaring fallacies in his assumptions and analysis, Nick Pine accused me of various things, such as having "not-invented here" syndrome, being closed-minded, and, when I told him about the detailed modeling we had done during design of the Hanover house, snidely insinuated either that somehow I cooked the results or that I had ripped off my client (he asked me, I wonder who paid for that modeling?) He also told me I put too many windows in that house. I found his constant nasty comments about architects and engineers to be tiresome. We all have some flaws, but there certainly are quite a large number who have sincerely pursued a profound understanding of how to use solar energy in homes. And pursued it based on trying out what we think of in real buildings. When we did the Hanover house modeling, our results told us that to get to 100% solar we would need to roughly double collection area (built at 360 ft2 active, along with about 200 ft2 direct gain glass) and substantially increase storage. To save the last $100-200 in energy didn't seem logical at a cost which would likely have been over $10,000. If anyone reads the write-up in the February EBN, they will learn that the back-up heat for the house is used almost entirely in long cloudy strings in the winter. Weather variations are key here - the amount of energy the house has used varies almost 2X in the four years of occupancy. I think I learned from Norman Saunders' work that we need to do buildings that are incredibly superinsulated, and have (at least in the northeast) about 600+ ft2 of collection aperture, as well as multi-day storage charged to high temperatures to carry through long cloudy spells, if we want to approach 100% solar. My own experience confirms this. Recently Amory Lovins told a client of mine that the houses they were going to build (a cohousing community in VT) shouldn't need any back-up heat - they could be superinsulated, passive solar. I constructed a model in both Suncode and Energy 10 of such a house, built to a standard that none of us could achieve. The back-up heat (hot water load not included) gets low, as we know, but doesn't get to zero, even when the thermostat setting is dropped to 60F. I also went around with Amory a couple of years ago when he told me that the VT Law School building I was consulting on didn't need a cooling system. I read all the references he pointed me towards, looked at his closest example (a building in England - design cooling temperature of 79F compared to 92 in VT!), and talked to some of the authors of the references I had read. Chiefly because of the differences in humidity, I concluded you can't make people comfortable with passive cooling in non-arid climates. I get tired of people who don't actually do things telling me that I must be doing them wrong because my results don't agree with their analysis. Anyone else feel this way? I'd be interested if any other listers have looked at Nick Pine's writings (I can't call it work - work is when it's a building you can monitor and look at.) Sorry for the ranting. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 8 09:28:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04797 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:28:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24123; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:15:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:10:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23539 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA23535 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:09:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from together.net (dial-139-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.139]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12846; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 09:19:02 -0400 Message-ID: <35A37191.C76C344A@together.net> Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 09:18:09 -0400 From: Tom Anderson Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: passive solar again References: <3874212@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA23536 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3881 Marc & List Members: I also came across Nick Pines' work on the web and came to the same conclusions. Mr. Pine has a creative right brain and some interesting ideas, and these are elements typically lacking in main-stream design and construction. Proof is in the pudding, but where is the pudding? While generalizations are usually unfair, the old proverb kept coming into my thoughts, "..... those who can't teach" .... seems applicable in this case. If Mr. Pine had 10 years or so of front line experience, his credibility would not be questioned. He does not have any meaningful experience and that is clearly evident and confirmed by personal correspondence.. Tom Anderson Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > Listers - > > I was feeling badly about the anger/frustration that seeped into my reply to Dave Monk about Nick Pine. Perhaps I should expand a bit - I went into that inquiry with him with a sincere interest in learning about something new and better than what I already knew. Those of you who know me know that I am always happy to use someone else's ideas - whatever works! > > Once I saw the glaring fallacies in his assumptions and analysis, Nick Pine accused me of various things, such as having "not-invented here" syndrome, being closed-minded, and, when I told him about the detailed modeling we had done during design of the Hanover house, snidely insinuated either that somehow I cooked the results or that I had ripped off my client (he asked me, I wonder who paid for that modeling?) He also told me I put too many windows in that house. > > I found his constant nasty comments about architects and engineers to be tiresome. We all have some flaws, but there certainly are quite a large number who have sincerely pursued a profound understanding of how to use solar energy in homes. And pursued it based on trying out what we think of in real buildings. > > When we did the Hanover house modeling, our results told us that to get to 100% solar we would need to roughly double collection area (built at 360 ft2 active, along with about 200 ft2 direct gain glass) and substantially increase storage. To save the last $100-200 in energy didn't seem logical at a cost which would likely have been over $10,000. > > If anyone reads the write-up in the February EBN, they will learn that the back-up heat for the house is used almost entirely in long cloudy strings in the winter. Weather variations are key here - the amount of energy the house has used varies almost 2X in the four years of occupancy. > > I think I learned from Norman Saunders' work that we need to do buildings that are incredibly superinsulated, and have (at least in the northeast) about 600+ ft2 of collection aperture, as well as multi-day storage charged to high temperatures to carry through long cloudy spells, if we want to approach 100% solar. My own experience confirms this. > > Recently Amory Lovins told a client of mine that the houses they were going to build (a cohousing community in VT) shouldn't need any back-up heat - they could be superinsulated, passive solar. I constructed a model in both Suncode and Energy 10 of such a house, built to a standard that none of us could achieve. The back-up heat (hot water load not included) gets low, as we know, but doesn't get to zero, even when the thermostat setting is dropped to 60F. I also went around with Amory a couple of years ago when he told me that the VT Law School building I was consulting on didn't need a cooling system. I read all the references he pointed me towards, looked at his closest example (a building in England - design cooling temperature of 79F compared to 92 in VT!), and talked to some of the authors of the references I had read. Chiefly because of the differences in humidity, I concluded you can't make people comfortable with passive cooling in non-arid climates. > > I get tired of people who don't actually do things telling me that I must be doing them wrong because my results don't agree with their analysis. Anyone else feel this way? > > I'd be interested if any other listers have looked at Nick Pine's writings (I can't call it work - work is when it's a building you can monitor and look at.) Sorry for the ranting. > > Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 8 12:54:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA11841 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:54:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06292; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:41:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:37:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05902 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nexus.idirect.com (nexus.idirect.com [207.136.80.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05897 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:36:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ts7-9t-7.idirect.com (ts7-9t-7.idirect.com [209.161.229.199]) by nexus.idirect.com (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA24263; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 12:45:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980708115931.474fe2e8@idirect.com> X-Sender: dmonk@idirect.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 11:59:31 To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) From: Dmonk Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Technology Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <3873621@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3882 >I could write a long post about this, but here's the gist: >I spent literally days looking at Nick Pine's claims in early 1996. He conveniently ignores several things: >- he assumes house heat loads way below anything you've ever seen built (like 100 BTU/hr/F for a 3000 ft2 house - the house we did in Hanover NH has a heat loss of about 200 BTU/hr/F for 1800 ft2, and is one of the most superinsulated houses in the country.) >- he assumes that monthly average weather is sufficient to do calculations - if I do calculations his way, the Hanover house is easily 100% solar. Unfortunately, with 4 seasons of actual data, this ain't so (see EBN Feb '98). The house has performed very close to the computer model prediction we did. >- he assumes about 2 days worth of thermal storage - way below adequate - have you ever seen weather strings where the sun doesn't appear for a week? >- he begins his modeling with a fully charged storage - in practice, there isn't enough solar surplus as you head into the winter to charge a large mass - our detailed simulation model predicted that our 10,000 lbs of water storage would drop in temp in early winter, in the first long cloudy spell, and never get charged up hot again until February. This is just what happens. >- he models the Solar Closet assuming the temperatures in the collector, the air being circulated, and the storage are all the same. You can't get heat transfer without a temperature difference (at least without a change in state!). > >I found Nick Pine to be arrogant, derogatory towards all architects and engineers, and unwilling to look at the honest critiques of his ideas. He has never built a house. He convinces people without the technical ability and experience to analyze the fallacies in his logic, and bamboozles them with lots of math, making it look like he is doing analysis. > >The people who have built houses approaching 100% solar have needed to use about 3 times as much collection area as Nick pine assumes will give 100% solar, and have many days of thermal storage. Norman Saunders' work is the best example. Norman always said that to reach 100% solar, you designed for the average December, then added 30% to cover variations in weather. (And he told at least some clients, you may have to bake cookies in some situations!) > >I told Nick Pine, build a full scale Solar Closet house, monitor it, and publish the results. That's how he could prove his technology. > >My advice is don't waste any more time with him. I already did. > >Marc Rosenbaum Yeah. I've gone thru all of these concerns. The one thing he doesn't model is transient performance. So I did a finite method forward difference transient model with very accurate energy balances on the thing. There are factors that influence the charge up time, and from my numbers the amount of solar mass has to be much larger. Nevertheless, the technology seems to work. I'm the last person who would just take the word of overly simplistic explanations. Like I mentioned earlier, I want to adjust my model for TMY2 data, and throw in a random cloud factor so that I am overly conservative. As far as building one of these things, I have already done some preliminary work on what it would take to monitor it, etc. You are absolutely right that on the face it looks great, but when you go deeper you see the flaws. I too spent a while going over this thing from a variety of directions so that I was sure. Provided you control certain variables, like the air flow to the closet and the convection coefficients within the closet, heater and sunspace you can do it. The performance is very sensitive to these convection coefficients. There has to be some natural convection occuring. Yet, I still think this is feasible. This necessitates fans,but the energy load to run this is negligible compared to the results. So obviously this isn't a totally passive solution. He has also had some fairly prominent solar designers look at this thing: Steve Baer, Norm Saunders, Malcolm Wells, William Beckman(the guy who wrote THE text on solar processes), and he's gotten only good reviews. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 8 14:54:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16538 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:54:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13522; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:40:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:37:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13116 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13112 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:36:49 -0400 (EDT) From: RodLambert@aol.com Received: from RodLambert@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1XDNa04020 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 14:45:31 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Sound Attenuation Barriers Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3883 Speireag, you did not indicate what R-value you were looking for in the roof. The higher density stuff will give the higher value but not necessarily 5x the value depending on your payback requirements. Only you can make the finaljudgement on that. Rod Rod Lambert Development Management Second Neighborhood Group Ecovillage at Ithaca, NY where we are planning the second cluster of up to 5 such clusters surrounding a village green. ( in the "most enlightened town in America" - Unte Reader ) they wouldn't print it if it weren't true! Yes we welcome visitors/potential neighbors. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 8 17:59:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA27648 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23128; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:45:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:41:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA22651 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:41:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA22645 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 17:41:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA04859; Wed, 08 Jul 1998 17:50:33 -0400 Message-id: <3881230@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 08 Jul 98 17:50:42 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: blower door test To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: gnelson@isd.net, george@eas.pdx.edu, alive@inforamp.net, mblas9@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3884 GBlisters and others - I've just finished a blower door test on the new, almost-finished VT Law School classroom building which I've been working on for quite some time. The 23-24,000 ft2, 3 story building tested out at 6172 CFM at 50 Pa. Some big holes which we weren't able to seal off for the test included the three main mechanical system dampers (they were closed but don't seal well), the Clivus Multrum stacks (2 large M35 units), and the elevator shaft, which shares walls with an existing leaky building. My guess is that the building envelope would test out well below 5000 CFM50 if these were sealed off. I was aiming for about 5500 CFM50, which is equal to an ELA of 1 in2/100 ft2 of shell area (at an exponent of 0.65.) Does anyone have experience on similar scale buildings they could share, by way of comparison? Thanks Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 8 19:38:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA00792 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28855; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:24:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:20:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA28562 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:20:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA28554 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:20:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA12-p45.dreamscape.com [209.4.255.45]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA22400 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 19:29:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35A3FF56.D6C305A@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 19:23:02 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Software Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3885 Pacific Northwest Labs has announced a new genration of software that might be what some of you have been looking for. ________________________________________________________________________ Life-Cycle Advantage®. For products, processes and services, this software package characterizes the lifetime energy and environmental implication, including consideration of raw material extraction, processing, transportation, end-use, waste management and recycling impacts. It helps product designers, process engineers and policymakers with emerging environmental challenges, such as designing recyclable products, selecting environmentally friendly raw materials, developing zero-waste technologies, formulating competitive environmental business strategies and developing environmental policies. The technology was developed by researchers Ken Humphreys, Devin Terry, Susan Adams, Marty Adickes, Scott Freeman, Mark Johnston, Tami Stewart and Bruce Vigon. Battelle sponsored the commercialization. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 8 22:50:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA06012 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA05726; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:33:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:29:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA05464 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05460 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.11] (blf11.acadia.net [205.217.217.11]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA07572 for ; Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:38:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 22:38:46 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Sound Attenuation Barriers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3886 Speireag wrote: >does anyone have any input on using sound >attenuation barriers in this way? I plan to put them between 2x10's, laid >at 16 or 24 inches, on-center. They'll be over the cathedral ceiling >decking and the moisture barrier, and under plywood, Bituthene, and a bale >living roof. Don't forget to ventilate the roof. Continuous soffit vent and continuous ridge vent highly recommended. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 9 09:56:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA27691 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24679; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:42:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:37:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24266 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:37:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.microsoft.com (mail3.microsoft.com [131.107.3.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24262 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail3.microsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) id <3RA863QX>; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 06:45:54 -0700 Message-ID: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D032D9083@red-msg-59.dns.microsoft.com> From: "Michael Skowronski (Comforce/RhoTech)" To: "'Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET'" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: passive solar again Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 06:45:48 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3887 Marc Wrote: I was feeling badly about the anger/frustration that seeped into my reply to Dave Monk about Nick Pine. We all need to rant and rave sometimes. I realize that to spend $10K or more to save that last $100-$200 in energy expense seems like a waste. But I would be interested in the specific techniques that you would use to get there. Being in the planning stages of a self-sufficient-renewable-energy-off-the-grid community it may be worth putting that extra $10K into our homes to achieve this goal. Many have asked for more details about the community. I'll be sending that within the next week, I am trying to wrap up a project (today) then I'll be unemployed and loving it for at least a few weeks. - Michael Skowronski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 9 09:58:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA27772 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24837; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:40:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24504 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:40:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail4.microsoft.com (mail4.microsoft.com [131.107.3.122]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24500 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 09:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail4.microsoft.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) id <3P436ZW5>; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 06:49:18 -0700 Message-ID: <3FF8121C9B6DD111812100805F31FC0D032D9084@red-msg-59.dns.microsoft.com> From: "Michael Skowronski (Comforce/RhoTech)" To: "'ANovelli@aol.com'" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: Conservative "thinking"- Next Steps? Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 06:49:15 -0700 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2328.0) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3888 I will read and sign and send off the document to my representatives (provided I like it's content) once it is done. - Michael Skowronski -----Original Message----- From: ANovelli@aol.com [SMTP:ANovelli@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 1998 12:31 AM To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: ANovelli@aol.com Subject: GBlist: Re: Conservative "thinking"- Next Steps? I am heartened by the responses I've seen on the list, and in private messages. One person wrote who was upset with my language, and for that I apologize. It is a difficult challenge to be civil in the face of the most heartless incivility and purposeful wrongdoing, though I guess I honestly am more upset about the fact that most people swallow this swill. But onward. There have been good suggestions for moving forward. Most center around written replies of support for those fighting this tax cut, or varying levels of response to its supporters. I would like to discuss the makings of a letter, perhaps from this list or a portion who would sign on to it. This discussion can be directed to myself, or to the list, as the group sees fit. How about a few of us present a draft(s) to the list in the next week or so. Any takers? And if someone can get a list together of all the addresses for the senators and representatives (and it would be cool if we could list the supporters separate from the detractors of the tax cut), we'll be a step closer. Again, my best wishes and gratitude for your response. And may we be reminded of the most challenging idea I know of, and which a dear friend in Tucson taught me: There is no THEM. Peace, Tony Novelli ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 9 10:50:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29546 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:50:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28233; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:36:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:32:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27878 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:32:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27869 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:32:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21344 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:41:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:41:43 EDT From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: Large Building air leakage To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199807090600.CAA11397@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3889 Marc, you forgot to mention the exterior envelope area that you were testing. The building you tested is sort of mid-size. Large buildings of 10 to 15 storeys have been tested in Canada by Shaw and others at NRC and in the US by the Persily and others. The results of these large building tests (the Canadian blower comes on a 40 foot trailer!) show a leakage of 0.2 to 1.2 cfm per sq ft enclosure at 50 Pa. This is based on 6 Canadian and 8 US buildings with floor areas of well over 100 000 sq ft and built at least 10 years ago. For these buildings, with wall areas of about 30-50% of floor areas, the leakage rates could be converted to the 24000 sq ft area of your building by say, 40% x 24000 ft = 9600 sq ft area If we use the best building, at 0.2 cfm/sq ft, then we have only 2000 cfm @ 50 Pa. The worst gives almost 12000 cfm @ 50. I assume the enclosure area was much larger on your building. BTW, there are other tests going on right now. If you really want numbers, Enermodal Engineering has tested their 3 storey office building, and we can get their numbers, and Tony Woods of Can-Am has done a lot of large and medium size building testing for which he should have more numbers. I would assume from the change in building practise here in Canada that the leakage rates are now MUCH lower than the studies of old (1970-1980's) buildings I quoted. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 9 13:50:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA06244 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09690; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:36:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:32:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA09312 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ci.portland.or.us (pdxnet.ci.portland.or.us [207.109.34.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09308 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 13:32:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linux1.bis.city (root@linux1.bis.city [10.80.1.15]) by ci.portland.or.us (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id KAA08098 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:41:26 -0700 Received: from issd1.bis.city (issd1.bis.city [10.80.1.16]) by linux1.bis.city (8.7.3/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA06314 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 10:39:37 -0700 Received: from Portland-Message_Server by issd1.bis.city with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 09 Jul 1998 10:42:05 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 10:06:16 -0700 From: Curt Nichols To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Conservative "thinking"- Next Steps? -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3890 Tony, etc__ Below is an initial draft of a letter that the entire Portland City Council will send off to all five Oregon representatives. As you suggested, I'm sending a copy of this to the GBlist in case it can serve as a template for other similar letters, e-mails, etc. Go Fox-Skaggs, Go !! Curt Curt Nichols Portland Energy Office _ _ _ _ _ _ _ July 10, 1998 Congresswoman Elizabeth Furse House Office Building Washington, DC 20515 Dear Congresswoman Furse: We write today to voice our strong support for the Fox-Skaggs Energy Efficiency Amendment to the House Interior bill to restore funding for energy efficiency programs. The FY99 House Interior Appropriations bill cuts energy efficiency funding $25 million below FY98 and $200 million below the President's request. These cuts will undermine DOE's Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy's ability to develop new energy efficiency technologies, work with the private sector to deploy that technology, and foster energy efficiency activities in the states and cities across the US. The Fox-Skaggs Amendment is expected to be considered when the Interior bill comes to the House floor. We understand that this is scheduled to occur on July 16. We'd like to encourage you to support this amendment and even consider co-sponsoring it. The City of Portland is well underway with our plans to use biogas methane from our wastewater treatment plant to produce electricity using a fuel cell. This biogas-to-electricity process is clean and renewable, and it was made possible in part because of funding from DOE. In order to continue to meet City goals to increase energy efficiency for businesses, residents, and especially lower income families, we need the funding contained in the Fox-Skaggs amendment. Maintaining DOE's budget for energy efficiency and renewable energy is clearly important. It can spur further develop-ment of efficient products and clean, renewable energy at cost-competitive rates. We hope you will support efforts to reverse the budget cuts proposed in the pending Interior Appropriations bill. Sincerely, ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 9 23:57:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA27322 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:57:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10159; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:43:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:39:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA09883 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:39:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nexus.idirect.com (nexus.idirect.com [207.136.80.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09879 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ts7-17t-2.idirect.com (ts7-17t-2.idirect.com [209.161.231.98]) by nexus.idirect.com (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id XAA16677 for ; Thu, 9 Jul 1998 23:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980709230228.486f8966@idirect.com> X-Sender: dmonk@idirect.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 23:02:28 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Dmonk Subject: GBlist: Solar Closet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3891 I'd like to clarify some ideas about the solar closet. I don't think it is a really bad idea, even if it turns out not to be totally passive. It is a good way to store energy - a well insulated high thermal mass space. In the event that it needs to be recharged, a woodstove in the solar closet will suffice. This is a much more intelligent way to retain the heat from a woodstove than from having the woodstove in the living space. It can also be easily modified to include a sauna(woohoo). So, to surmise: you get a sunspace you get supplemental (if not total) solar heating/hot water you get a sauna You can call me crazy, but that sounds pretty good to me. I think that Marc's right btw. Spending 10,000 bucks to save 300 or so seems silly (unless you work for the government-then it's foresighted). dave ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 10 08:20:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08497 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21495; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:06:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:02:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21150 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21145 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:02:10 -0400 (EDT) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: from ANovelli@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1LAPa19315; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:10:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5809cf4b.35a604c4@aol.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:10:43 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: ANovelli@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Support for Fox-Skaggs Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3892 >>Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 10:06:16 -0700 From: Curt Nichols Subject: GBlist: Conservative "thinking"- Next Steps? -Reply Tony, etc__ Below is an initial draft of a letter that the entire Portland City Council will send off to all five Oregon representatives. As you suggested, I'm sending a copy of this to the GBlist in case it can serve as a template for other similar letters, e-mails, etc. Go Fox-Skaggs, Go !! Curt Curt Nichols Portland Energy Office _ _ _ _ _ _ _<< Thanks Curt, Support seems to continue building on the list for a statement like yours. Thank you for sharing it. In fact, I suggest we consider this draft as something to go with for now, considering the time-frame. From this point, we will need only to assemble the bulk mail list, and then sign it. I will be glad to collect name/affiliation of everyone in support, compiling them into a single signature. We can always add to it later. Would it be best to send me personally a single document, with the word "support" in the subject line, with your name/affil. in the message body? I'm open to making this as easyy as possible, as I see it being quite effective if we can get a hundred names or so. Does anyone have a list of the congressional addresses? Would we lose impact bulking them together? Ready and Waiting. Tony Novelli Development Center for Appropriate Technology IoNova BioMechanical Systems >>July 10, 1998 Congresswoman Elizabeth Furse House Office Building Washington, DC 20515 Dear Congresswoman Furse: We write today to voice our strong support for the Fox-Skaggs Energy Efficiency Amendment to the House Interior bill to restore funding for energy efficiency programs. The FY99 House Interior Appropriations bill cuts energy efficiency funding $25 million below FY98 and $200 million below the President's request. These cuts will undermine DOE's Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy's ability to develop new energy efficiency technologies, work with the private sector to deploy that technology, and foster energy efficiency activities in the states and cities across the US. The Fox-Skaggs Amendment is expected to be considered when the Interior bill comes to the House floor. We understand that this is scheduled to occur on July 16. We'd like to encourage you to support this amendment and even consider co-sponsoring it. The City of Portland is well underway with our plans to use biogas methane from our wastewater treatment plant to produce electricity using a fuel cell. This biogas-to-electricity process is clean and renewable, and it was made possible in part because of funding from DOE. In order to continue to meet City goals to increase energy efficiency for businesses, residents, and especially lower income families, we need the funding contained in the Fox-Skaggs amendment. Maintaining DOE's budget for energy efficiency and renewable energy is clearly important. It can spur further develop-ment of efficient products and clean, renewable energy at cost-competitive rates. We hope you will support efforts to reverse the budget cuts proposed in the pending Interior Appropriations bill. Sincerely<< ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 10 08:22:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08560 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21776; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:08:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:05:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21367 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:05:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21350 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:04:59 -0400 (EDT) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: from ANovelli@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1SAPa19315 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <74d2b5cb.35a60554@aol.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:13:07 EDT To: Greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Support for Fox-Skaggs Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3893 Second thoughts... I'll try and make the letter a little less site-specific, and resubmit it to the list this weekend. Any other comments? Tony ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 10 09:51:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA11004 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:51:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26475; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:37:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:34:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26087 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:33:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26083 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:33:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-10 #26439) with SMTP id <0EVV003J0SS4KB@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:43:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:41:59 -0400 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:30:50 -0400 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: Solar Closet -Reply To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3894 HEY!! _________________________ Contact Information Steve Offutt, ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html _________________________ >>> Dmonk 07/09/98 07:02pm >>> . . .unless you work for the government-then it's foresighted). dave ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 10 11:36:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14435 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02203; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:22:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:17:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01806 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:17:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01801 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:17:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail2.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:34:00 +0100 Date: Fri, 10 Jul 98 10:34:11 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: GBlist: daylighting specs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5326459.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3895 Help! Austin's Green Building Program guru Sue Barnett is in Korea, and I've left more messages in voicemailboxes than I care to count. I'm trying to fill in these blanks with some reasonable values: "Daylighting will be incorporated into the building design to provide at least ________% of daytime light needs for retail uses and ________% daytime light needs for office uses." I need to know if/what specs are out there, and their origins in your reply. Thanks in advance. Jeanine -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 10 16:32:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA26827 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:32:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA17513; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:18:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:13:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA17094 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:13:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17087 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:13:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA1-c7.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.200]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA23855 for ; Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:22:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35A6769A.5253A800@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 16:16:26 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Conservative thinking Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3896 I just got off the phone with Ed Osann, who was recommended to me by Stan Sloss, the legislative liaison for David Skaggs office for the Fox-Skaggs amendment. Ed steered me to the Alliance To Save Energy's "Take Action" page, where you will find further info on the effort to raise support for the amendment and a link to a sample letter. Both Stan Sloss and Ed Osann reinforced my suspicion that mail from a constituent back home to an individual legislator, may carry more weight than a form letter, from an interest group, received by everyone en masse. Not to say that the group letter isn't worthwhile, just a reminder that it is still very important to write to your own Senator/Representative as a voter they must account to. Please do both, sign on to the group letter and write your own. If you don't know where to write, here is the simplest way to find out. http://www.askjeeves.com/Followup.asp http://www.askjeeves.com/Followup.asp In case they don't work, they are both listed on this page under the query "How can I reach a Senator (or Representative) by zip code?" http://www.askjeeves.com/AskJeeves.asp?ask=senator+representative+contacts&qSource=0&site_name=Jeeves&metasearch=yes&AskJeeves.x=25&AskJeeves.y=5 Only 381 out of 540 Representative actually have email addresses. Snail mail letters need to go out soon, as the vote may be as soon as next Thursday,the 16th. One further recommendation I was given is that the votes most critical are moderate Republicans and oil or coal state Democrats, they could be the swing votes. I hope you all follow through on this, Democracy in action and all that. Good luck! Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY http://www.ase.org/takeaction/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jul 11 11:28:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25927 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15126; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:14:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:08:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14797 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:07:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14792 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:07:18 -0400 (EDT) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: from ANovelli@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1ATZa20770 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:16:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <426f9185.35a781b3@aol.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:16:01 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: conservative thinking Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3897 >>One further recommendation I was given is that the votes most critical are moderate Republicans and oil or coal state Democrats, they could be the swing votes. << Anyone on top of things enough to be able to identufy these folks? Tony ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jul 11 11:40:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26252 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:40:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15635; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:21:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA15333 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15288 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:19:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1FFIa26053 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:28:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:28:34 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Support for Fox-Skaggs Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3898 Tony, Chuck & list: I used the draft letter and just changed the Portland specific section to be more Virginia specific. Let's get some more going and thanks for taking the time. Chuck, the ask Jeeves site is great! July 10, 1998 Congresswoman Herbert Bateman House Office Building Washington, DC 20515 Dear Congresswoman Bateman: We write today to voice our strong support for the Fox-Skaggs Energy Efficiency Amendment to the House Interior bill to restore funding for energy efficiency programs. The FY99 House Interior Appropriations bill cuts energy efficiency funding $25 million below FY98 and $200 million below the President's request. These cuts will undermine DOE's Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy's ability to develop new energy efficiency technologies, work with the private sector to deploy that technology, and foster energy efficiency activities in the states and cities across the US. The Fox-Skaggs Amendment is expected to be considered when the Interior bill comes to the House floor. We understand that this is scheduled to occur on July 16. We'd like to encourage you to support this amendment and even consider co-sponsoring it. Here in Virginia, it is estimated that more than 10,000 jobs are part of the energy efficiency/pollution prevention industry. A study by the State of Washington shows that from the extraction of natural resources through end use, we waste fifteen pounds for every pound of finished used product. Energy costs are a significant cost to the manufacturing community. The Fox-Skaggs Amendment allows government to continue working with industry to make it more efficient and competitive. Maintaining DOE's budget for energy efficiency and renewable energy is clearly important. It can spur further development of efficient products and clean, renewable energy at cost-competitive rates. We hope you will support efforts to reverse the budget cuts proposed in the pending Interior Appropriations bill. Sincerely, Philip & Fayth Bailey Fredericksburg, Va. Pbsustain@aol.com PS. Our livliehood is in no way tied to this bill. We are, however, increasingly concerned regarding pollution and efficiency of our country. Please respond ONLY via email or telephone. We encourage your office to be accessible via email. Thank you. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jul 11 12:05:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27535 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 12:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16483; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:50:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:46:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16149 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:45:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16127 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:44:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa7-p15.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.143]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA08356 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35A78928.F46CE1A0@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 11:47:52 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Support for Fox-Skaggs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3899 For those who didn't find the link to this page, at the bottom of my last post, here is a copy of the Alliance for Saving Energy's alert. On this page is a downloadable PDF file of there sample letter, I can post it here if anyone is unable to do so themselves. The traditional oil states are Alaska, Louisiana, Oklahoma and Texas; the coal states are Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky and Wyoming. I'm not sure about Montana or North Dakota, any list members from those states? As for a list of moderate Republicans, I'm not up to speed there, I can do some research if no one else knows. ________________________________________________________________________ July 9 Status Report The FY99 House Interior Appropriations bill cuts energy efficiency funding $25 million below FY98 and $200 million below the President’s request. These cuts will undermine DOE’s Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy’s ability to develop new energy efficiency technologies, to work with the private sector to deploy that technology, and to foster energy efficiency activities in the states. Representatives Jon Fox (R-PA) and David Skaggs (D-CO), and several other members, will be offering a bi-partisan amendment to restore these critical funds. The Interior bill is expected to come to the House floor on July 16. You can download a PDF file (17 KB) of their "Dear Colleague" letter regarding the amendment. Contact your Representatives Urge colleagues and members of your association to contact their Representatives -- ask them to cosponsor and support the Fox-Skaggs Energy Efficiency Amendment to the Interior Appropriations bill. Tell them: Energy efficiency is the foundation of sound national energy policy. The cost of foreign oil is low at the pump, but the cost to the nation is high. The U.S. imports more than 50 percent of its oil. Former CIA Director James Woolsey noted recently that "the security of the United States and the global economy is put seriously at risk by the world’s growing dependence on imported oil…" Investments in energy efficiency technologies reduce energy consumption and reduce the security threat created by our dependence on imported energy. Energy efficiency programs are wise government investments. Earlier this year, the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology (PCAST) reported that R&D investments in energy efficiency are the most cost-effective way to simultaneously reduce the risks of climate change, oil import interruption, and regional air pollution, and to improve the productivity of the economy. The PCAST report estimates the benefit to the U.S. economy of the broad range of energy efficiency measures we have employed at over $150 billion per year. Energy efficiency is a cost-effective approach to protecting the environment. Energy production and use are major contributors to air pollution. Development and deployment of energy efficiency technologies directly enhance environmental quality and reduce emissions of multiple pollutants, including sulfur dioxide, particulates, and NOx. While energy efficiency also reduces greenhouse gases, these established programs were generating economic and environmental benefits long before the Kyoto Protocol was conceived. Continued funding of energy efficiency is not "back-door implementation" of the Kyoto Protocol. Call or write to your Representative today Thank you for your help. If you have questions or need more information, call David Hamilton or Genevieve Cullen at the Alliance to Save Energy, 202/857-0666. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jul 11 18:44:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA08485 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA25734; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:24:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA25433 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:23:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from teapot23.domain2.bigpond.com (teapot23.bigpond.com [139.134.5.165]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA25425 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:23:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by teapot23.domain2.bigpond.com (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id ca773840 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:19:24 +1100 Received: from MA-A01-pool-153.tmns.net.au ([139.134.93.153]) by mail2.bigpond.com (Claudes-Choosy-MailRouter V1.3); 12 Jul 1998 08:19:23 Message-ID: <005e01bdad1a$4bd754c0$965f868b@nsw9999> From: "Brian Woodward" To: Subject: GBlist: Sound proofing upper timber floors Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 08:21:28 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005B_01BDAD6E.119001A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3900 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01BDAD6E.119001A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone any information regarding simple, cheap, and ecologically = sustainable ways to construct a timber upper floor (with joists and t&g = boarding) to (a) prevent squeaking of the floorboards as you walk on = them, and/or (b) to reduce sound transmission to and from the room = below? =20 I seem to recall reading somewhere, some years ago about filling the = space between the joists with sand to reduce sound transmission. This = would obviously need a ceiling material and fixing capable of taking the = weight as well as joists designed for the extra weight. Anyone had any = experience of this? =20 Thanks in expectation =20 Brian Woodward, Qualified Architect, Earthways, Australia. -specialising in and living with Sustainable Technologies, Low Cost, = Owner Built, Passive Solar, Loadbearing Mudbrick construction, Composting Toilets, and Solar = Electricity.=20 -Overseas Aid Work in Nepal and South Africa. -Earthways Sustainable Lifestyles Resource Centre, Wollombi, N.S.W. 2325 = Australia. e-mail brianwoodward@bigpond.com Webpage www.users.bigpond.com/nsw9999 ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01BDAD6E.119001A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Has anyone any information regarding = simple,=20 cheap, and ecologically sustainable ways to construct a timber upper = floor (with=20 joists and t&g boarding) to (a) prevent squeaking of the floorboards = as you=20 walk on them, and/or (b) to reduce sound transmission to and from the = room=20 below?
 
I seem to recall reading somewhere, = some years=20 ago about filling the space between the joists with sand to reduce sound = transmission. This would obviously need a ceiling material and fixing = capable of=20 taking the weight as well as joists designed for the extra weight. = Anyone had=20 any experience of this?
 
Thanks in expectation
 
Brian Woodward, Qualified Architect, = Earthways,=20 Australia.
-specialising in and living with Sustainable Technologies, = Low=20 Cost, Owner Built, Passive
 Solar, Loadbearing Mudbrick = construction,=20 Composting Toilets, and Solar Electricity.
-Overseas Aid Work in = Nepal and=20 South Africa.
-Earthways Sustainable Lifestyles Resource Centre, = Wollombi,=20 N.S.W. 2325 Australia.
e-mail brianwoodward@bigpond.comWebpage=20 www.users.bigpond.com/nsw99= 99
------=_NextPart_000_005B_01BDAD6E.119001A0-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jul 11 23:06:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA14366 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 23:06:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA02509; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:48:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA02196 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:47:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from labs.tamu.edu (claim.tamu.edu [128.194.103.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02192 for ; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:46:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (165.91.68.11) by labs.tamu.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.B6D107C0@labs.tamu.edu>; Sat, 11 Jul 1998 21:56:10 -0500 Message-ID: <35A83422.285@math.tamu.edu> Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:57:22 -0500 From: marvit Reply-To: marvit@math.tamu.edu Organization: Texas A&M University X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: radiant barrier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3901 I have a box of "Solar Shield" Foil. it states that attic installation = R19 but wall insta. =R 7.6 HOW COME I CAN'T GET BETTER IN THE WALL?????? tANKS!!!! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jul 12 03:25:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA20291 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 03:25:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA07423; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 03:11:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 12 Jul 1998 03:05:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA07164 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 03:03:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA07160 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 03:03:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay1.mnsinc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id DAA28858 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 03:12:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:51:40 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: Fox-Scaggs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3902 980711 As a former local elected county supervisor, let me clue you to make your letters your own. Nothing is less convincing than a form letter or form phone call. Pressure tactics are perceived as irritating nuisances. Sincere, well-reasoned letters from people who wrote or called (more common in local politics) in a non-threatening but firm, certain manner, were taken most seriously. Most congressmen will recall the 1973 Arab oil embargo, like I do. Remind 'em in those letters. Good luck with Herb Bateman, remembered by those of us from '70's Va Tech as the author of the infamous "6 inch" rule in effect for dorm rooms being visited by the opposite sex. Apparently Mr Batemen, then a state legislator, had seen one of his daughters become pg in a dorm room encounter. ...Guess the 6 inches would have allowed an RA to toss in a condom for the young lovers, huh? Why would anybody not support reasonable measures toward lessening our use of obvious scarce & expensive resources? Research pays off. It got us to the moon. The logic escapes me. And Clinton should have brought some air samples back from China. Educational, that would be. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jul 12 07:42:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA25247 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 07:42:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA10847; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 07:28:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 12 Jul 1998 07:24:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA10621 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 07:23:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA10617 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 07:22:53 -0400 (EDT) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 25411 invoked by uid 0); 12 Jul 1998 11:32:09 -0000 Received: from ppp-18.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.212?) (198.175.11.212) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 12 Jul 1998 11:32:09 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 07:32:29 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: radiant barrier Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3903 ----------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 22:57:22 -0500 From: marvit Subject: GBlist: radiant barrier I have a box of "Solar Shield" Foil. it states that attic installation = R19 but wall insta. =R 7.6 HOW COME I CAN'T GET BETTER IN THE WALL?????? tANKS!!!! -------- Good question. I'm using some similar stuff and all the documentation I've seen corroborates that using radiant reflective surfaces for insulation buildings is dependent on orientation relative to gravity. Yet none of the sources give any explanation as to why. I believe that it is because convective heat transfer takes place in any open air space, along with the radiative heat transfer. The red herring arises because reflective surfaces are designed to limit radiative heat exchange, so it is easy to forget the totality of what is happening with the various types of heat flow in a wall cavity. Convection moves heat by circulating air cells in a space. When you have a narrow vertical space (inside a wall), apparently the convection cells are "more active" (they have more freedom to move up and down?) and transfer more heat via convection than if you have a narrow horizontal cavity (inside a roof or floor cavity). Slanted spaces like in a cathedral ceiling have intermediate convective transfer. Documentation which distinguish between attic and floor R values reveal that when the indoors is warmer than the outdoors, radiant barriers are much more effective in the floor. This is consistent with the convection cell theory. Imagine trying to heat a container of water by applying heat to the top rather than the bottom of the container. Convection cells will not form in the container. Instead the water temperature will stratify, with warm water floating motionless on top of cold water. As a result, it will take longer to transfer heat into the water because there is no circulation. The same thing is working when heat is moving downward through a floor. No convection cells will form and total heat transfer will be slow. Radiant barriers may block radiant heat transfer, but their use in walls or attics actually encourages convective transfer in a heating climate since they require air spaces. If you are more interested in insulating for a hot climate, then they work better in attics than in floors. The actual spacing between reflective surfaces and other surfaces (the thickness of the air space) is also an important factor in how high an R value you get with radiant barriers. Again, I think it is because of air convection cells. Due to the viscosity of air, some spacings allow "more active" cells than others. The same is true of the insulating value of air spaces between panes of glass. And that is why argon or krypton are added to increase the insulating value of the spaces between glass. They are more viscous (or denser?) than air, and reduce the convection cell activity. Oh, and this also ties in with why vacuums like in a Thermos bottle are such good insulators. There is no gas to convectively transfer heat between the inside and the outside. Then you add the shiny surfaces to limit radiative heat transfer and you have the best overall insulator I know of. So, physics says you get less insulating value in walls than an attic. But I have wondered whether if you somehow limit the ability of the air in a wall to move vertically, you can improve the R value. I'm thinking of adding a radiant barrier to the back of drywall which will be placed over horizontal furring strips instead of directly on studs. The 16" o.c. furring strips will provide a 3/4 inch air space, but will they also restrict air circulation enough to give me a higher R value than if the furring ran vertically?? Anyone know? If I've made any errors in my explanations, please, others on this list who really know, help me out. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 13 10:32:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06342 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:32:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21203; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:18:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:12:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20651 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:11:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20637 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 10:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA15944; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:18:55 -0600 Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 08:18:55 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: FUnger@aol.com Cc: ashapiro@together.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Green Icynene?? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3904 You said:"There isn't a faster or easier way I have found to build a really tight house than icynene. I'd like any recommendations anyone would have though." ___________________________________________________________________________ Fred: I would use Icynene more if: 1) the price is more cost-effective, and 2) there was less waste In the past we have reused leftover scrappings, of which there was far too much. You end up paying for all this material, including all the scrap that has to be reused (now dry) elsewhere, where other dry material would work much better. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 14 16:36:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA02703 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:36:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00943; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:08:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:04:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00611 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from prince.essential.org (prince.essential.org [198.4.52.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00607 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from essential.org (testa.essential.org [198.4.52.13]) by prince.essential.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20977 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:12:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35ABBB2C.C495C4C0@essential.org> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:10:21 -0400 From: Marcia Carroll X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: ways to dispose of insulation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3905 An NGO in India is looking for environmentally friendly ways to dispose of remodeling waste, particularly styrofoam used as insulation in hot water pipes and pvc pipe insulation. Any information or leads will be appreciated. Marcia Carroll Multinationals Resource Center PO Box 19405 Washington, DC 20036 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 14 16:41:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA03043 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:41:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA01889; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:21:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:17:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA01527 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:17:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo30.mx.aol.com (imo30.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.74]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01521 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:17:38 -0400 (EDT) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo30.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id KKJPa26166; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:25:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:25:49 EDT To: moxvox@pcisys.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: More salvaging/waste stream talk Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3906 In a message dated 98-06-30 19:19:25 EDT, moxvox@pcisys.net writes: << At least given the current mindset. I'm thinking lately about all those buildings going down all over the country, and wish there were more being done with them. At the same time, now I understand even more why they go down under front-end loaders. >> The Yestermorrow Design Build school in Warren, Vermont - recently demolished three story section of old inn - we chose to contract with a company that would salvage the materials in fact almost 90% of the materials --- the contract cost about 20% more than bulldozing the place, but we felt we needed to put our money where our mouth was --- some of the materials went to a company called Residuum in Barre, Vermont which is a used construction material store - Cindy the owner will set dumpsters at construction sites, if the people will use them, but is getting a lot of resistance - she's struggling after a year in business - also has found that more materials get carried off the building site when the dumpsters are used because the people working on the site don't have to dig what they want out of the trash dumpster since it has already been sorted for them Linda Lloyd GreenShelter ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 14 16:44:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA03167 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:44:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02594; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:27:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02211 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02207 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa2-p54.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.54]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA06236 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:36:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35ABBFCC.BA18AF25@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:30:04 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Conservative thinking Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3907 Tony, How are you making out on the group letter? Were the url's I sent enough to put together the mailing list? Did everyone write to their own representative yet? This is your opportunity to make a difference, we keep saying we want to influence the way things are done and make sustainable changes. Well, this is the perfect time to stop whining and do something, let's see a show of hands. Who's done what? The 16th is only two days away. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 14 18:44:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA09525 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:44:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08561; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:26:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08263 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:26:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08258 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa5-p11.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.203]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA13327 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35ABDBD0.18E74946@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:29:36 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: conservative thinking Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3908 Once again, if you don't know your Reprsentatives address or fax # here is a url that will help. http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 14 22:40:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA16809 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:40:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA17844; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:26:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:22:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17581 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:22:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17576 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:22:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.32] (blf32.acadia.net [205.217.217.32]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA19699 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:31:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:31:42 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: golf and lawns Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3909 DON'T MOW THE LAWN, PLAY GOLF INSTEAD It's tough living in the suburbs. There's work from nine to five, kids to raise, bills to pay and a lawn to mow. However, a Purdue University specialist in landscaping encourages homeowners to change their ways and spend Saturdays playing golf instead working in the yard. "If you think about what you're looking over when you look out the front of the house, it's this very short, green grass," Bruno Moser says. "It's historically been the landscape we use in the bulk of our front yards. I'd like to suggest that you reduce the grass area, create some flower beds, create some shrub beds that are a little bit taller and that give you a background." "With the use of mulches and some perennial plants that are very low maintenance, you can have borders that are not high maintenance. In fact, instead of spending every Saturday mowing your yard, you might have some time to go out and play golf or do other things." Moser says homeowners should think of their front yards as something they want to look at and enjoy, not as something available only for public viewing that's indistinguishable from the neighbor's. But the public does look, so he cautions would-be landscape architects to be carefully creative. "I've seen this over and over again," he says. "When someone does a creative treatment of their front yard in a neighborhood, it spreads down the street. My experience has been that it actually has a positive effect on the neighbors, and very often they'll follow the lead." Moser recommends selecting vigorous plants that are hardy to your area and get them started on the right foot -- errr -- root. He says there are many landscape materials and tricks that can be used, such as fences, berms, paths and night lighting, and suggests having a master plan before getting started. "You can choose horticultural-type plants and also use paving, gravel and mulches to create an environment that really looks nice," he says. "It gets away from high chemical use on lawns, and it gets away from the exhaust of the lawn mower, if you're concerned about that. "I have to confess that my front yard doesn't have any grass in it at all," Moser says. "I have a paving-stone patio and some berms of earth, some fencing and a lot of ground covers. The only place I use the lawn mower is in the back yard, and I only do that a couple of times a year to knock down the wildflowers and things to make it look good. So there are techniques you can employ to create a very pleasing front yard that you can actually use, without putting your lawn mower in it ever again. It's not maintenance free, though. You have to pull some weeds when you have plantings." However, he says, with the use of mulch and vigorously growing ground covers and other plants, maintenance is no more extensive and time consuming than mowing once or twice a week. The mulch serves to smother weeds, keep plant roots warm in winter and cool in summer, conserve moisture and prevent soil from washing away or becoming hard. Moser says there are hundreds of herbaceous perennials, such as daylilies, hostas and peonies, that come up every year and need little attention except to be divided every three or four years. "Some perennials are very hardy, very vigorous growing, and don't require a great deal of maintenance," he says. "Normally you'd use some mulch under them to keep weeds from growing." He says many shrubs and trees can offer colorful flowering or fruiting characteristics and come in all shapes and sizes. They also need little care. Ground covers may need the most upkeep, he says, but if they're planted properly and grow vigorously, they'll out-compete weeds and won't cause a problem. One good ground cover he recommends is wintergreen euonymus, which is green in the summertime and purplish in winter. According to Moser, periwinkle, with its blue or white flowers, is another good low-growing ground cover. Pachysandra works well in shady spots, he says, and some junipers that grow only about six inches tall and spread across the ground are good for sunny locations. "You can go all the way from a height of two to three inches with periwinkle up to 18 inches or so with hostas. Just mass plant them," Moser says. "They out-compete the weeds and do a beautiful job." Source: Environmental News Network ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 15 19:43:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA25604 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:43:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA06497; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:30:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:25:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA06194 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:25:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vixa.voyager.net (vixa.voyager.net [198.109.136.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06188 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:25:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (lnngmi184142.voyager.net [209.153.184.142]) by vixa.voyager.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA23250; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 19:34:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35AB5985.63C4@voyager.net> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:13:41 +0000 From: Pat Ballentine Reply-To: Ballentine@voyager.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Abrams CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Golf Courses References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3910 John: It depends on what you have to work with at the site, and this might not work at the Edgartown Great Pond, but Lansing, MI used an existing city golf course to solve an expensive problem. Whenever even an eighth of an inch of rain fell, the combined storm/sanitary sewers overflowed into the rivers dumping raw sewage. Mandated sewer separation systems would ordinarily consist of digging up the streets, laying storm drains and running trunk lines a long way to the treatment plant. Resulting destructing of street shade trees would worsen the heat island effect and destroy beautiful landscape. City drain engineer, Pat Lindeman designed an innovative system called the Tollgate project to reconstruct the course to recieve local storm water and treat it through a series of natural cleansing methods, cascades, ponds, water plants. After testing, the water is released to ponds on the golf course which feed the surface water down through the natural eskers to the underground tables. This solution converts the storm water into underground water in a manner more like nature's water cycle. Deforestation causes such rapid run off that underground supplies aren't fed as they were before man's impact. While Lansing gets a good 30 inches of rain per year, other communities have to try to resupply their underground resevoirs. The Tollgate project only incorporates a part of the city which is close to the old golf course. The course is still operating, and there are plans for an educational exhibit to explain the hydrology. Community residents are also to recieve training in reducing the non-point pollution from individual homes and businesses, because this will only work if the storm runoff isn't too dirty to begin with. The main reason for community acceptance is that the price tag changed from $25 million to around $6-10 million for those in the Tollgate region. They eliminated the trunk lines and pumping. Pretty impressive! This type of project could be used wherever there is suitable glaciated soil and geology. It's a win-win idea. Pat Ballentine ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 15 22:41:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA00193 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:41:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12251; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:27:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:23:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA11984 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:23:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA11980 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:23:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA12-p9.dreamscape.com [209.4.255.9]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA03518 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:32:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35AD64C8.CBE9C30A@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:26:17 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: conservative thinking Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3911 Well, that was a real eye opener, I heard from 3 people, representing perhaps 5-6 voices (David Foley actually canvassed among his friends and garnered a couple of extra letters). Does this indicate a nearly total lack of response on the part of this group or are we preserving our right to secret ballot? This is truly disheartening, if this group won't speak out, what the hell is the point of all of this whining and bitching. I feel like Country Joe MacDonald must have at Woodstock when he shouted out to the audience, "How do you ever expect to stop a war if you f*ckers don't sing any louder than that? And it's one, two, three..." What a hollow ring this silence has. As my Mom would say, "Pitiful" Chuck "In any organization it is far, far safer to be wrong with the majority than to be right all alone." John Kenneth Galbraith "The neurotic has problems, the psychotic has solutions." Unknown ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 15 22:56:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA00578 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12840; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:42:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:39:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA12543 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:39:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12539 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:38:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.13] (blf13.acadia.net [205.217.217.13]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA21573 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:48:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:48:20 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: conservative thinking Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3912 Chuck wrote: >I feel like Country Joe MacDonald must have at Woodstock when he shouted >out to the audience, "How do you ever expect to stop a war if you >f*ckers don't sing any louder than that? And it's one, two, three..." >What a hollow ring this silence has. As my Mom would say, "Pitiful" > >Chuck Don't be too hard on the group, Chuck. We all try to contribute in the ways we best can, and a lot of our efforts are below the radar screens of Congress, the United Nations and other big cheeses. There is absolutely no reason to wait for the Kyoto protocols to be signed to the do the hard work of making green buildings manifest in the world. It's important to contact Congress on important issues, but if I have to choose between doing good buildings or influencing Washington, I personally feel more competent to do good buildings. That said, how about everybody taking a few minutes to call their representative? How about gettting just one other person to do likewise? It'll take you about 30 minutes. How about it? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 15 23:35:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA01600 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:35:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14196; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:21:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:18:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA13793 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA13788 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:17:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mnsinc.com (a0033.culpeper.mns.net [206.239.106.65]) by relay1.mnsinc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id XAA22063 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:27:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35AD9D79.9C06ACFD@mnsinc.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:28:10 -0700 From: khassan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: conservative Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3913 Maybe many on the list simply did as I did and emailed their congressperson expressing their concerns re: Fox-Skaggs ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 16 08:48:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA14391 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:48:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25934; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:34:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:29:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA25646 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:29:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stingray.bwbr.com (stingray.bwbr.com [206.147.245.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA25642 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:29:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from XR.bwbr.com (sm5173.bwbr.com [206.147.245.118]) by stingray.bwbr.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA25038 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 07:38:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199807161238.HAA25038@stingray.bwbr.com> From: "Stephanie McDaniel" To: Subject: GBlist: conservative Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 07:40:27 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BDB08C.FFD374C0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3914 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BDB08C.FFD374C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I too, emailed my member of congress. __________________________________________ Stephanie McDaniel BWBR Architects 400 Sibley Street Suite 500 St. Paul, Minnesota 55101 USA 612.290.1872 smcdaniel@bwbr.com http://www.bwbr.com ------=_NextPart_000_01BDB08C.FFD374C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I too, emailed my member of = congress.


__________________________________________
Stepha= nie McDaniel

BWBR Architects
400 Sibley Street Suite = 500
St. Paul, Minnesota 55101
USA

612.290.1872
smcdaniel@bwbr.com
http://www.bwbr.com

------=_NextPart_000_01BDB08C.FFD374C0-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 16 08:55:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA14604 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:55:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26347; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:41:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:38:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26065 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:38:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26058 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:37:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.34]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 5234400 ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:48:24 EDT Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980716083845.0068f584@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:38:45 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: conservative thinking In-Reply-To: <199807160600.CAA18081@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3915 Chuck Hinckley wrote:> >I feel like Country Joe MacDonald must have at Woodstock when he shouted >out to the audience, "How do you ever expect to stop a war if you >f*ckers don't sing any louder than that? And it's one, two, three..." >What a hollow ring this silence has. As my Mom would say, "Pitiful" > Don't assume that the silence means that no one is doing anything. I am sure that numerous letters were sent. Heck, I received 4 of the same e-mails from different sources asking folks to contact their congressman. I sent my letter on the 8th and at least a dozen like-minded folks in the area sent one too. Been too busy with projects to even check e-mail lately. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 16 11:19:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA19693 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:19:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02154; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:01:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01840 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:01:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eypdc04.eypae.com (eypdc04.eypae.com [205.234.22.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01834 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by eypdc04.eypae.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id <38KBV7FW>; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:10:44 -0400 Message-ID: From: Mike Fowler To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: conservative thinking Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 11:00:50 -0400 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3916 Chuck, I believe there are many who wrote and voiced their opinions to their representatives and have not notified the list. I have notified two representatives, the one for my residence and the one for where my place of employment is. In addition, I informed others that I know regarding the Fox-Skaggs movement. I don't know whether they took the time to write or call but I will assume that some did and some did not. Yes it would be nice to hear feedback and confirmation but with our busy schedules that courtesy is not always shown. My fear is that with busy schedules people say to themselves that they do not have time but try justify that by also saying it is okay because others are writing. That is how the ball gets dropped. Chuck, a thank you to you and to Tony, Curt and others on the list for forging this issue to the front burner and getting people to act. Let's hope that our elected officials will understand the importance and potential impact of their vote on this issue. If not, we should all start buying land in Canada as global warming scorches the wheat and corn belt, the water supply dwindles, and the fertile land with a suitable growing season moves north. Michael Fowler ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 16 12:28:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA22032 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05816; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:10:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05523 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:10:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05518 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:10:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA12-p22.dreamscape.com [209.4.255.22]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA20687 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35AE26A0.5BCBF949@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:13:20 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: conservative thinking References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3917 Mike Fowler wrote: > > Chuck, > > I believe there are many who wrote and voiced their opinions to their > representatives and have not notified the list. I can only assume you're right, as you said elsewhere, hopefully the ball wasn't simply dropped. If not, we should all > start buying land in Canada as global warming scorches the wheat and > corn belt, the water supply dwindles, and the fertile land with a > suitable growing season moves north. Jorg and all you Canadians, How do you feel about sharing your homes with a few million hungry US emigres? That makes it a hell of a lot more real, doesn't it? In that light, perhaps the Canadian contingent should be writing to our Congress as well. I hope we have done some good with our efforts. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 17 07:56:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA24085 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 07:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA12657; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 07:42:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Jul 1998 07:36:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA12394 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 07:36:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.34.207]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA12390 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 07:36:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs7.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22562; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 05:45:27 -0600 Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 05:45:26 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Chuck Hinckley Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: conservative thinking In-Reply-To: <35AE26A0.5BCBF949@dreamscape.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3918 You said:Jorg and all you Canadians, How do you feel about sharing your homes with a few million hungry US emigres? That makes it a hell of a lot more real, doesn't it? In that light, perhaps the Canadian contingent should be writing to our Congress as well. _______________________________________________________________________ Chuck: You will all feel right at home with a climate like that of Texas (47 dC last week) or Florida. Perhaps the Pacific will be lapping at the outskirst of Calgary so you can enjoy the beaches of California as well. Home away from home. Jorg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 17 17:06:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14035 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:06:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06953; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:52:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:47:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA06494 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:47:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agen.ufl.edu (water.agen.ufl.edu [128.227.240.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06488 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:47:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from agen.ufl.edu (hokey.agen.ufl.edu [128.227.240.162]) by agen.ufl.edu (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA01733 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:55:31 -0400 (EDT) Posted-Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:55:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35AFE497.DDE8CB8C@agen.ufl.edu> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:56:08 -0700 From: Matthew Landau Organization: UF Ag & Biol Engineering X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: water use Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3919 I am with the University of Florida Energy Extension Service and we are >currently attempting to put together a learning module on water use and >conservation approaches for new homebuilders. I am tring to find out >some facts and figures on water use in the building process. If you >have any statistics - either on the ammounts of water used or needlessly >wasted, or if you could post this topic for responses within the >discussion group I would greatly appreciate. (I realize that there are >many, many invariables involved here and there is no one surefire >number- I am just hoping to get some general information.) > >Matthew D. Landau >OPS Professional >Florida Energy Extension Service >(352) 379-3557 >mlandau@agen.ufl.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 17 19:17:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA18226 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12364; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:00:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA12105 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.toronto.istar.net (mail2.toronto.istar.net [209.89.75.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12065 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:00:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.191.137.9] (helo=brenda) by mail2.toronto.istar.net with smtp (Exim 1.92 #2) for greenbuilding@crest.org id 0yxJd2-0006Y9-00; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:09:28 -0400 Reply-To: From: "Allen Kani Associates" To: Subject: GBlist: Woodchip boilers Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:11:52 -0400 Message-ID: <000701bdb1d8$4897c480$9489bfcc@brenda> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01BDB1B6.C1862480" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3920 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BDB1B6.C1862480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list, I just joined this list because I am doing some product research on woodchip boilers. I work in an environmental engineering company that is working on a ecovillage lodge project that is in need of one. I am having a very difficult time trying to locate suppliers in North America for this type of boiler that produces 100kW. If anyone has any suggestions, please post them to me at alive@inforamp.net addressing your message to Brenda Kwan. Thank you in advance for your assistance. I apologize if this is not the proper forum for this message. Brenda Kwan Allen Kani Associates 292 Merton Street, Suite 2 Toronto, Ontario M4S 1A9 Canada Tel: (416) 488-4425 Fax: (416) 488-7608 alive@inforamp.net ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BDB1B6.C1862480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello=20 list,
 
I just=20 joined this list because I am doing some product research on woodchip=20 boilers. 
I work in an environmental engineering company = that is working=20 on a ecovillage lodge project that is in need of = one.
I am=20 having a very difficult time trying to locate suppliers in North America = for=20 this type of boiler that produces 100kW.
If=20 anyone has any suggestions, please post them to me at alive@inforamp.net addressing = your message=20 to Brenda Kwan.
 
Thank=20 you in advance for your assistance.  I apologize if this is not the = proper=20 forum for this message.
 
Brenda=20 Kwan
Allen=20 Kani Associates
292=20 Merton Street, Suite 2
Toronto, Ontario
M4S=20 1A9     Canada
Tel:  (416) 488-4425
Fax:=20 (416) 488-7608
alive@inforamp.net ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BDB1B6.C1862480-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jul 18 02:27:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA00373 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 02:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA23287; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 02:13:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 18 Jul 1998 02:08:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA22800 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 02:08:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA22796; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 02:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.97] (ka3-96.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.96]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA04193; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 02:17:37 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-Id: Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 20:26:55 -0400 To: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List , ESSA@csf.colorado.edu, The Cob Mailing List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Wood Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id CAB22797 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3921 Howdy, all! I will be using local timber, cut on my property, for our house. I may be able to use some which are already down. I hear bug-killed vigas mentioned sometimes. I also hear about pine-borers and such. Around here, the bugs will pretty reliably get into the wood if you let it sit for a year (unless it's stored inside somewhere). How can you safely use such wood? How do you get rid of pine-borers? Do carpenter ants vacate after the wood is dry, or once they're started into green wood, are they ensconced and must be poisoned out (or boraxed). -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jul 18 12:01:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14635 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:01:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01829; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:47:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:43:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01604 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:43:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01599; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa2-p6.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.6]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA04908; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:52:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35B0C348.6576EED3@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:46:17 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag Alden CC: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List , ESSA@csf.colorado.edu, The Cob Mailing List Subject: Re: GBlist: Wood References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3922 Kiln dry the wood, that will take care of any pests and make the lumber more stable and usable. Chuck Hinckley Speireag Alden wrote: > > Howdy, all! > > I will be using local timber, cut on my property, for our house. I may > be able to use some which are already down. > > I hear bug-killed vigas mentioned sometimes. I also hear about > pine-borers and such. Around here, the bugs will pretty reliably get into > the wood if you let it sit for a year (unless it's stored inside somewhere). > > How can you safely use such wood? How do you get rid of pine-borers? > Do carpenter ants vacate after the wood is dry, or once they're started > into green wood, are they ensconced and must be poisoned out (or boraxed). > > -Speireag. > 0>>>>>>(--------------------- > Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden > Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org > Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. > Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jul 18 15:39:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19789 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:39:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06743; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:25:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:21:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06451 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:21:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06447 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:21:15 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id GMHa026053; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:29:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:29:29 EDT To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: conservative thinking Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3923 Friends, I too was inspired by all you folks to fax my Congressman about Fox Scaggs. I appreciate all the encouragement from all of you. I added that preferable to Fox Skaggs and a restoration of renewables funding, would be a total elimination of subsidies, tax breaks, liability protection and other insentives provided for the coal, nuclear and oil industries as well as our favored technologies. It's pretty easy to get a few crumbs of wastefully expended federal dollars for our pet programs. Wouldn't it be far more effective, a much better use of financial resources and a quicker route to a sustainable future if we could get the entire energy industry off the federal tax nipple and opened it up to real competition with all players accountable for the full costs of their technology. Once pollution and other "economic externalities" are assigned where they belong renewables could compete just fine without any subsidies. By promoting this type of relationship with government, we might encourage new partnerships with folks who have traditionally been adversarial to our political perspective. By begging for our favorite subsidies, we are simply part of the business as usual down in Washington. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jul 18 21:20:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA02349 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:20:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA14000; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:06:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:02:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA13761 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:02:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA13757; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:02:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip12.ivnet.net [206.101.73.172]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01564; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:08:08 -0700 Message-ID: <35B146A6.8D2632F7@ivnet.net> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:06:46 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag Alden CC: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List , ESSA@csf.colorado.edu, The Cob Mailing List Subject: Re: GBlist: Wood References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3924 Speireag Alden wrote: > > Howdy, all! > > I will be using local timber, cut on my property, for our house. I may > be able to use some which are already down. > > I hear bug-killed vigas mentioned sometimes. I also hear about > pine-borers and such. Around here, the bugs will pretty reliably get into > the wood if you let it sit for a year (unless it's stored inside somewhere). > > How can you safely use such wood? How do you get rid of pine-borers? > Do carpenter ants vacate after the wood is dry, or once they're started > into green wood, are they ensconced and must be poisoned out (or boraxed). > >Howdy Speireag, You can kill most anything in wood if you get it hot enough. I've had good success with powderpost beetles and some other unidentified borers by stickering and wrapping small units with black plastic in hte hot sun. When the interior temperature gets to about 150 degrees F for a while it usually kills off the larvae and eggs of most insects. I try to let my heap get hot for a few different days just to be sure. This is the time of year for it. If you have too much wood to treat this way, it might be more economical to kiln dry it. If you have a small lumber mill around, they might be able to do this for you. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jul 19 21:04:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA05371 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:04:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA19147; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:44:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA18308 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:43:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18304 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:43:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.117] (ka3-117.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.117]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA12399 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 05:19:58 -0400 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Wood again Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id UAA18305 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3925 Hallo. Thanks to everyone who suggested kiln-drying and black plastic for heating wood enough to vanquish the beasties. I'm talking about timbers two feet across for the posts, and ten inches across and twenty feet long (some of them) for the timbers. It would be difficult and expensive to take them to a kiln, I suspect; I'd have to research the prices, but it might turn out to be better to buy timber in that case, which I'm trying to avoid. Wrapping such large pieces in black plastic would also be difficult, though certainly feasible for smaller timbers or for sawn lumber. Are there any other alternatives? Borax and sugar water? :) -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jul 19 21:55:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06699 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:55:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA20938; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:41:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:36:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20516 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:36:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bna.bellsouth.net (mail.bna.bellsouth.net [205.152.80.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20512 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spencers (host-209-214-119-105.bna.bellsouth.net [209.214.119.105]) by mail.bna.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA27295 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:45:51 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35B2A1DE.1DF2@bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 20:48:14 -0500 From: spencers Reply-To: bardsong@bellsouth.net Organization: bardsong X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding list Subject: GBlist: Re: Home In The Mountains!!! References: <199807191630.LAA29587@perham> <35B2A136.188E@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3926 spencers wrote: > > Hi. We're looking fo a place to build our home (Cob or Bale.) And > thought some of you on this list could be of help and would like to have > us as neighbors. We're musicians/artists who currently build recycled > Irish Bouzoukis, Dulcitars, Octave mandolins, and Mandocellos. > > Our site is at http://spaceformusic.com/bardsong > > We have building skills, tools, tons of determination, very green > thumbs. Are hard working, and will be an asset to any community we live > in. > We'd like to locate in an area where there are some like-minded folks > who've basically done what we are going to do ourselves.We'll need some > cheap land, if there still is such a thing. And in an area where the > codes folks aren't gonna give us a hard time. We now live in Nashville > Tenn, but love North Carolina, Arizona, Oregon. But will consider > elsewhere if sugested. > > So, can we get some ideas from you all? > > Thanks much. > > Shawn&Jen Spencer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 20 06:55:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA19748 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 06:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA07697; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 06:41:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Jul 1998 06:36:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA07339 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 06:36:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA07335 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 06:36:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id GAA13802 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 06:45:55 -0400 Message-id: <3989897@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 20 Jul 98 06:46:08 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Woodchip boilers To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id GAA07336 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3927 I'm assuming you mean 100 kW thermal, which is pretty small. Try these: Messersmith is represented in new england by Carl Bielenberg RFD 1 Marshfield, VT 05658 802 456-8993 A second maufacturer is Chiptec 48 Helen Avenue South Burlington, VT 05403 802 658-0956 802 660-8904 fax A persoon who has done much work around the specification of wood chip boilers is Tim Maker PO Box 78 Calais, VT 05648 802 223-6918 Marc Rosenbaum (say hi to Greg for me!) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 20 07:53:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA20999 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:53:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA09682; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:38:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:34:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA09247 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA09243 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from together.net (dial-28-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.28]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA01850; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:43:21 -0400 Message-ID: <35B32D1F.5F529A70@together.net> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:42:23 -0400 From: Tom Anderson Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Woodchip boilers References: <3989897@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3928 Marc: Tim has some very strong biases, not always in owners' best interest, in my expeience, though no question he is a decent reputable person. Tom Anderson Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > I'm assuming you mean 100 kW thermal, which is pretty small. Try these: > > Messersmith is represented in new england by > Carl Bielenberg > RFD 1 > Marshfield, VT 05658 > > 802 456-8993 > > A second maufacturer is > > Chiptec > 48 Helen Avenue > South Burlington, VT 05403 > > 802 658-0956 > 802 660-8904 fax > > A persoon who has done much work around the specification of wood chip boilers is > > Tim Maker > PO Box 78 > Calais, VT 05648 > > 802 223-6918 > > Marc Rosenbaum > > (say hi to Greg for me!) > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 20 08:46:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA22877 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:46:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12437; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:32:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:27:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12091 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:27:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12085 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:27:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from together.net (dial-145-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.145]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18392 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:36:45 -0400 Message-ID: <35B339A3.95C4E469@together.net> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 08:35:47 -0400 From: Tom Anderson Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Woodchip boilers References: <3989897@lyme.VALLEY.NET> <35B32D1F.5F529A70@together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3929 List Members: Previous woodchip boiler message sent to list erroneously. Intended as a personal message. Please accept my regrets. Tom Anderson Tom Anderson wrote: > Marc: > > Tim has some very strong biases, not always in owners' best interest, in my > expeience, though no question he is a decent reputable person. > > Tom Anderson > > Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > > > I'm assuming you mean 100 kW thermal, which is pretty small. Try these: > > > > Messersmith is represented in new england by > > Carl Bielenberg > > RFD 1 > > Marshfield, VT 05658 > > > > 802 456-8993 > > > > A second maufacturer is > > > > Chiptec > > 48 Helen Avenue > > South Burlington, VT 05403 > > > > 802 658-0956 > > 802 660-8904 fax > > > > A persoon who has done much work around the specification of wood chip boilers is > > > > Tim Maker > > PO Box 78 > > Calais, VT 05648 > > > > 802 223-6918 > > > > Marc Rosenbaum > > > > (say hi to Greg for me!) > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 20 10:32:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26573 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:32:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18829; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:17:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:12:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18511 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:12:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ci.portland.or.us (pdxnet.ci.portland.or.us [207.109.34.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18506 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linux1.bis.city (root@linux1.bis.city [10.80.1.15]) by ci.portland.or.us (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id HAA78930 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:22:05 -0700 Received: from issd1.bis.city (issd1.bis.city [10.80.1.16]) by linux1.bis.city (8.7.3/8.7.1) with SMTP id HAA11902 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:19:48 -0700 Received: from Portland-Message_Server by issd1.bis.city with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:22:16 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 07:28:10 -0700 From: Curt Nichols To: FUnger@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, ashcreek@dreamscape.com Subject: GBlist: conservative thinking -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAA18507 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3930 Many of you may be wondering what happened last week when the House of Representatives was supposed to vote on the Fox-Scaggs Amendment. Well, like congress often does, the vote was put off ... until today (7/20). There may still be time to fax your representative. If you don't know what to say, refer to the sample letter below. Good luck, Curt Curt Nichols Portland Energy Office _ _ _ _ _ _ _ July, 1998 The Honorable [NAME] U.S. House of Representatives Washington, D.C. 20515 Dear Congress[man] [NAME]: [WE] at [CO. BRIEF DESCRIPTION.] are concerned about the threat to energy efficiency programs created by the severe funding cuts in H.R. 4193, the FY99 Interior Appropriations bill. Funding for the Department of Energy*s Energy Efficiency programs has been slashed $25 million below last year*s level * and approximately $200 million below the President*s request. On July 20th, Congressmen David Skaggs, John Fox and a bipartisan coalition of Congressmen, will offer an amendment to H.R. 4193 to restore funding for these important programs. We strongly urge you to vote in favor of the Fox Energy Efficiency Amendment to H.R. 4193, the FY99 House Interior Appropriations bill. The value of these programs is clear. Investments in Energy Efficiency programs for development and deployment of clean and efficient building, industrial and transportation technologies provides benefits for businesses and consumers, the economy and the environment. At [YOUR COMPANY], we know the importance of energy efficiency first hand. [SPECIFIC COMPANY BENEFIT].We are asking for your support in maintaining our nation*s necessary and wise investment in energy efficiency programs. Please cosponsor and support the Fox-Skaggs energy efficiency amendment to H.R. 4193 on July 20. Thank you for considering our views. Sincerely, [YOUR NAME] [COMPANY] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 20 10:55:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27420 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20064; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:41:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:36:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19639 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:35:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (wfntnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.37.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19633 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:35:49 -0400 (EDT) From: walshj@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 85256647.00505124 ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:37:16 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: Greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <85256644.006DD8E5.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:45:47 -0400 Subject: GBlist: moisture content of wet spray cellulose Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3931 I have a client who is interested in wet spray cellulose and has several questions. Does anyone in the group know the approximate time between installation of wet spray cellulose and the time in takes to sufficiently dry out in order to sheet-rock? Is it based on Relative Humidity? Is it best practice to use a moisture meter before sheet- rocking? If yes, which type meter is best? Thanks for your help. John Walsh Energy Crafted Homes WMECO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 20 13:14:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03608 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:14:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28023; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:59:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:55:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA27751 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:55:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA27746 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-18.netcom.ca [207.181.90.82]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19011; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 13:03:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:54:06 -0400 To: From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Woodchip boilers Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <000701bdb1d8$4897c480$9489bfcc@brenda> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3932 At 07:11 PM 17/07/98 -0400, you wrote:
Hello list,
=A0
I just joined this list because I am doing some product research on woodchip boilers.=A0
I work in an environmental engineering company that is working on a ecovillage lodge project that is in need of one.
I am having a very difficult time trying to locate suppliers in North America for this type of boiler that produces 100kW.
If anyone has any suggestions, please post them to me at alive@inforamp.net addressing your message to Brenda Kwan.
=A0
Thank you in advance for your assistance.=A0 I apologize if this is not the proper forum for this message.
=A0
Brenda Kwan
Allen Kani Associates
292 Merton Street, Suite 2
Toronto, Ontario
M4S 1A9=A0=A0=A0=A0 Canada
Tel:=A0 (416) 488-4425
Fax: (416) 488-7608
alive@inforamp.net
Hello= :

I don't have any current information, but did dig up a report:
"Woodchip Combustion in Eastern Canada" 1994, done by Ian Flann,

Flann Consulting Services
1067 Wiseman Crescent
Ottawa, ON K1V 8J3
(613) 733-1340

It is quite meaty, although it deals mainly with commercial systems. The appendix lists the following contacts:

Canadian Manufacturers of Appliances Designed for Chip Combustion:

Mr. V. Court
Grove Wood Heat Inc.
Little York,
PEI C0A 1P0
(902)672-2090

Mr. M. Frey
Maco Enterprises
RR 2, Drayton
ON N0G 1P0
(519) 638-2746

Mr. T. Gunnel
Sylva Energy Systems Inc.
519 Richard St.
Thunder Bay
ON P7A 1R2
(807) 683-6795

Mr. B. Rosen
KMW Energy Systems
150 White Oak Road
London
ON N6E 3A1

Canadian Distributor of Finnish TP-30 kW Stoker:
Grove Wood Heat Inc.

Canadian Consultants for Small-Commercial Biomass Combustion:

Mr. Ron Braaten
CCRL, CANMET
555 Booth Street
Ottawa ON K1A 0G1
996-3916
lab 5639

(they have moved to:
ETB/CETC/ACT
1 Haanel Drive
Nepean, Ontario
K1A 1M1)

Mr. Charles Lemay
IRTA
P.O. Box 250
Clarence Creek
ON K0A 1N0
(613)488-2618

Mr. Bruce McCallum
Ensight Consulting
Hunter River
PEI C0A 1N0
(902) 964-2297

Hi to Greg and Mario as well......

Best..........Norbert Senf




----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org
Masonry Stove Builders  
RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb  &= nbsp;
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092
         
       
          

______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 20 15:54:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09225 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:54:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08163; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:40:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:35:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA07777 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:35:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07772; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 198.5.254.151 (ke-ppp01.hevanet.com [198.5.254.151]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17363; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 12:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35B293B1.7DFA@hevanet.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:47:44 +0000 From: "M. Scott Jones" Reply-To: msjns@hevanet.com Organization: The Ecotopia Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: spencers CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding-digest@crest.org Subject: GBlist: mountain home? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3933 If you build a new home in the mountains, you'll be increasing the human footprint on the Earth. It doesn't matter if you build in cob or strawbale. It's hard enough on the Earth with new buildings going up in every little available nook and cranny. But it's not just the buildings pushing out plant and animal habitats that's non-sustainable. It's the increase of human activity and transport, and the increase of human presence where before there was little or none at all. Living out in the country increases the distance of human travel and transport of goods, which translates into more energy consumption for road maintenance and fuel, not to mention the ecological costs of motor vehicles that living in the city would reduce. For the Earth's sake, then, I pray that you give serious second thought to your back-to-the-land fantasy and consider living in the city. Get together with some other folks and buy up a city block and turn it into a cohousing development. Convert your local shopping district into an ecological market town. Start a inner urban land trust to restore city land into wilderness and other greenspaces. Start an urban farm or community garden, and participate in the other work desperately needed to restore the Earth by making our cities sustainable. If you are going to live in the country anyway, please don't build new buildings on open land, especially a virgin plot of land. Let it remain open and ecologically productive. One of the best options is to take over a farm that will otherwise succumb to a resort or vacation home development. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 21 02:46:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA29141 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:46:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA05315; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:32:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:21:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA04691 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:21:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (root@wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA04683; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:21:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip443.efn.org [206.163.181.187]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA15130; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:27:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert Bolman" To: , "spencers" Cc: , Subject: Re: GBlist: mountain home? Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 23:02:42 -0700 Message-ID: <01bdb46d$2c9d8e80$aab5a3ce@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3934 I enthusiastically applaud M. Scott Jones' arguement for urban as opposed to rural "sustainability". I've been in some lively discussions on this topic on the strawbale group. Lots of people are very enthusiastic about their vision of having a few acres of land out in the country where they can build their "sustainable" home and lifestyle. But I'm convinced that in most cases this means substantially greater use of the automobile than someone doing it on an urban basis. I'm just finishing my straw and earth house less than a mile from downtown Eugene, Oregon. I work with my neighbors in a community garden. Rainwater is harvested. Greywater and composting toilets are in the works. All that and I'm eight minutes by bicycle from the art cinema house. I love it. Robert Bolman >If you build a new home in the mountains, you'll be increasing the human >footprint on the Earth. It doesn't matter if you build in cob or >strawbale. It's hard enough on the Earth with new buildings going up in >every little available nook and cranny. But it's not just the buildings >pushing out plant and animal habitats that's non-sustainable. It's the >increase of human activity and transport, and the increase of human >presence where before there was little or none at all. Living out in the >country increases the distance of human travel and transport of goods, >which translates into more energy consumption for road maintenance and >fuel, not to mention the ecological costs of motor vehicles that living >in the city would reduce. > >For the Earth's sake, then, I pray that you give serious second thought >to your back-to-the-land fantasy and consider living in the city. Get >together with some other folks and buy up a city block and turn it into >a cohousing development. Convert your local shopping district into an >ecological market town. Start a inner urban land trust to restore city >land into wilderness and other greenspaces. Start an urban farm or >community garden, and participate in the other work desperately needed >to restore the Earth by making our cities sustainable. > >If you are going to live in the country anyway, please don't build new >buildings on open land, especially a virgin plot of land. Let it remain >open and ecologically productive. One of the best options is to take >over a farm that will otherwise succumb to a resort or vacation home >development. >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 21 08:53:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA07249 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13001; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:39:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:35:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12699 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:34:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12695 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:34:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id FAA08678 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 05:44:19 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 21 Jul 1998 05:41:41 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: Foot Binding To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id IAA12696 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3935 I'd like to add my own (hopefully small) voice to msjns's. I too pray that we can reduce the size of the "human footprint on earth." Human beings need to realize that their very presence on the earth constitutes an affront to decency and rightous thinking. In addition to living in a large city (the largest and most polluted and therefore beyond redemption), we should practice the following: 1. Gradually reduce our living space. A thoughtful reconsideration of our needs will show that we can probably get by with 200 square foot apartments, as a first step. As we learn to refine ourselves out of existence, we can gradually eliminate doors, windows, furniture--all of which merely waste the earth's precious resources. And, please, don't even think about heating and air conditioning. 2. Consider becoming nudists. Think about the wasted BTU's and air pollution that result from the production of clothing. 3. Give up the Gaialess urge toward procreation. It has been estimated that each new baby on earth is the equivalent of 6 poorly tuned 1962 Buicks cutting paths of destruction across the soybean fields of the world for 68.2 years. 4. Finally, we fervently pray that you contemplate the ultimate act of worship of the earth: become compost, with as little fanfare as possible. You can visit the Church of Euthanasia for advice and council. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 21 09:07:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07593 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:06:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13993; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:52:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:48:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA13447 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:48:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc513.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13443 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:48:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from IEL#u#MAIL-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:59:03 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:58:39 -0400 From: "Arnie Katz" To: Greenbuilding@crest.org, walshj@NU.COM Subject: Re: GBlist: moisture content of wet spray cellulose Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id IAA13444 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3936 John: We've been wrestling with this for awhile. The trend is to spray the material a lot drier than was typical a few years ago, and some manufacturers stay away from the term "wet spray" in favor of "damp spray" or "wall spray." Ivan Sandau, lead trainer for Greenstone Industries, for instance, recommends a moisture content of 20% coming out of the hose. If the installer achieves this, it can probably be sheetrocked the next day. In the field, however, I see a lot more variation, not only from installer to installer, but from one part of the job to another. I've seen everything from one day to two weeks drying time before covering. The RH certainly has an impact, but the moisture content of the material when it's sprayed is the most important variable. We've tried several kinds of moisture meters, none of which are calibrated for cellulose insulation. The $5 plant moisture meters are used by a lot of contractors, and may be the way to go. If it says dry, it's probably dry enough. If it says wet, it's probalby too wet. If it's in the middle, no one knows what it means, but I would wait until it says dry. The Cellulose Insulation Contractors Association(CIMA) is currently working on this issue, & trying to come up with consensus moisture standards and measurement methodology. In the meantime, my advice is to try to find an experienced contractor who's been trained to spray with a minimum of water and try to schedule the job so that you can tolerate a few days if necessary (e.g., schedule the spray for the end of the week, the rockers for the following week). As with any wall assembly, make sure it can dry to either the inside or the outside after it's finished. This is probably even more important with this system. All this having been said, my experience with the cellulose wall spray has been very positive, and I haven't seen any moisture problems caused by this system after a number of years. Good luck. Arnie Katz Building Science Specialist Advanced Energy 909 Capability Drive Raleigh, NC 27606 919/857-9029 FAX: 919/832-2696 akatz@aec.ncsu.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 21 09:16:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07830 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:16:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14931; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:02:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:58:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA14429 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (daemon@smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA14425 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA28543; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 06:08:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-047.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.47), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd028519; Tue Jul 21 06:07:58 1998 Message-ID: <35B4927B.83F764C8@primenet.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 06:07:08 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jean Gallagher CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Foot Binding References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3937 I second Jean's satirical commentary regarding our "need" to contribute responsible behavior for the good green of the third rock. Above all people the folks that spend time on this and related threads have contributed more towards responsible earth saving conduct than the average city dweller we are encouraged to live next door to. When our governments and majority of people are recycling, living "green", considering life and the continuation of it beyond their own circumstance then I might consider self sacrifice to the point of living closer to them. When health care and education become more than the biggest and most effective way to steal from the proletariat I will consider moving to town for the good of the whole. At this point I gave at the office. Now I have gone and stuck my foot in it! Sincerely, John Wilson Prescott, AZ. Jean Gallagher wrote: > I'd like to add my own (hopefully small) voice to msjns's. > > I too pray that we can reduce the size of the "human footprint on earth." > Human beings need to realize that their very presence on the earth > constitutes an affront to decency and rightous thinking. In addition to > living in a large city (the largest and most polluted and therefore beyond > redemption), we should practice the following: > > 1. Gradually reduce our living space. A thoughtful reconsideration of our > needs will show that we can probably get by with 200 square foot apartments, > as a first step. As we learn to refine ourselves out of existence, we can > gradually eliminate doors, windows, furniture--all of which merely waste the > earth's precious resources. And, please, don't even think about heating and > air conditioning. > > 2. Consider becoming nudists. Think about the wasted BTU's and air pollution > that result from the production of clothing. > > 3. Give up the Gaialess urge toward procreation. It has been estimated that > each new baby on earth is the equivalent of 6 poorly tuned 1962 Buicks > cutting paths of destruction across the soybean fields of the world for 68.2 > years. > > 4. Finally, we fervently pray that you contemplate the ultimate act of > worship of the earth: become compost, with as little fanfare as possible. > You can visit the Church of Euthanasia for advice and council. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 21 09:56:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09725 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:56:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16874; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:41:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:38:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA16502 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:37:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA16497 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:37:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from .sover.net (pm0a27.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.155]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA25523 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35B4BFE1.638A@sover.net> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:20:49 -0700 From: Cindy Blakeslee X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re:philosophy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3938 Ok. I'll add my two cents worth to the footprint issue. I find it very interesting that most people seem to be ignoring the overpopulation issue (save the last writer); back in the early 70's I was part of a very active zero population growth movement which seems to have faded out. We still want third world countries to curb their growth but we conveniently ignore the impact of western people's use of energy and other resources as being much greater per person (including celebrating the birth of seven kids at once through artifical means). Perhaps we should require an Environmental Impact Statement from all prospective parents??? My personal, cynical plan is to buy as many acres as I can (2-300 acres of a hilltop, perhaps clearcut by the paper industry and only $300 per acre) on which I will build one house and forever preserve the rest of the land from development (I mean forever). If enough of us do that, the land will be safe, we will be it's stewards, and we won't have to look to the government to curb development -- it will just happen. I lived in cities for 35 years of my life, and noway I will return. The arrogance of most of the human race is such that I certainly don't want to live in close proximity to millions of them and their schemes to ruin the earth and its other inhabitants. Am I alone??? If I can't change the major systems of the world (although I haven't given up yet), at least I will be able to live in peace with myself (and hopefully one other person and several dogs) knowing that I'm living as lightly as I can... Thanks for listening. -- Cindy Blakeslee, Reuser Extraordinaire 802/479-9341 Visit the RESIDUUM! website to see our inventory: http://www.sover.net/~reuser/index.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 21 10:16:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10453 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:16:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18232; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:01:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:58:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA17620 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:57:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17615 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:57:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from flash.net (sasc4-159.flash.net [209.30.90.159]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA13398 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:07:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35B4A0FB.3EE25145@flash.net> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:09:00 -0500 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Foot Binding References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3939 Jean Gallagher wrote: > I'd like to add my own (hopefully small) voice to msjns's. > > I too pray that we can reduce the size of the "human footprint on earth." > Human beings need to realize that their very presence on the earth > constitutes an affront to decency and rightous thinking. In addition to > living in a large city (the largest and most polluted and therefore beyond > redemption), we should practice the following: > > 1. Gradually reduce our living space. A thoughtful reconsideration of our > needs will show that we can probably get by with 200 square foot apartments, > as a first step. As we learn to refine ourselves out of existence, we can > gradually eliminate doors, windows, furniture--all of which merely waste the > earth's precious resources. And, please, don't even think about heating and > air conditioning. > > 2. Consider becoming nudists. Think about the wasted BTU's and air pollution > that result from the production of clothing. > > 3. Give up the Gaialess urge toward procreation. It has been estimated that > each new baby on earth is the equivalent of 6 poorly tuned 1962 Buicks > cutting paths of destruction across the soybean fields of the world for 68.2 > years. > > 4. Finally, we fervently pray that you contemplate the ultimate act of > worship of the earth: become compost, with as little fanfare as possible. > You can visit the Church of Euthanasia for advice and council. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ Jean, I was truly inspired by your post (flash-of-light, shivers, tinkle-of-heavenly-bells). As I reviewed your instructions, however, I couldn't decide if my procreative urges are accompanied by a "Gaia". Is this a physiological phenomenon or the work of a Spanish artist? Please advise me immediately as I don't want to botch anything when following your four steps. My tentative plan for step four is to drive my '62 Buick into the house (thus speeding later demolition), hook the tailpipe up to the air conditioner intake, and (wearing nothing but my Sierra Club membership card), listen to a Natural Wonders cassette during my final few minutes. Gratefully, The newly-enlightened Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 21 10:28:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10855 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:28:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19496; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:13:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:09:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18807 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:09:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18794; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:09:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip44.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.44]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA09265; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980721142812.00a86b90@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:28:12 -0400 To: walshj@NU.COM, Greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: moisture content of wet spray cellulose Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3940 At 10:45 AM 7/20/1998 -0400, walshj@NU.COM wrote: >I have a client who is interested in wet spray cellulose and has several >questions. Does anyone in the group know the approximate time between >installation of wet spray cellulose and the time in takes to sufficiently >dry out in order to sheet-rock? Is it based on Relative Humidity? Is it >best practice to use a moisture meter before sheet- rocking? If yes, which >type meter is best? Thanks for your help. > >John Walsh >Energy Crafted Homes >WMECO > While Arnie Katz gave you a good review of 'damp' vs 'wet' spray cellulose - we have had good success in dense-packing cellulose after the drywall is in place. Drilling thru the tape seam adds only a bit more spackle time and assuming your framing techniques are reasonably advanced there ought to be only minimal air-sealing preparation before the sheetrock goes up. Of course - you still need a good installer, will have to sweet talk the building inspector, plus it would be a good idea to have some quality control, blower door test & IR scan to insure no major voids. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 21 11:44:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13306 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:44:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24489; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:30:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:26:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24097 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:26:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from condor.prod.itd.earthlink.net (condor.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.86]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24092 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:26:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.199.232] (1Cust82.tnt5.redmond.wa.da.uu.net [153.37.203.82]) by condor.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA05248 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:43:42 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Mary Colette Wallace Subject: GBlist: Re: foot binding Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3941 The problems of building and living on this earth are more challenging as the population grows. I, too have idealistic visions of moving to the hinterlands - a vision that shatters every time I consider what I'd do when facing the locals (bears, cougars, deer, raccoons, etc.) and still manage to survive. But the more important issue is facing all of us Sustainable Building. How do we have affordable homes in the cities and towns? How do we live more in accordance with the natural? How do we reuse and recycle building materials - in an economically feasible way? How do we encourage others to try new methods and materials in the building process? The ultimate challenge of our time in relation to building is whether or not we will step up and begin the process. Retreating to the past is not the answer. Jumping so far into the future is ridiculous. Each unfaltering, persevering small step makes the long journey. Mary Colette Wallace THE WALLACE RESEARCH GROUP 425.822.1249 Mailto:wrg7@earthlink.net Architecture, Engineering and Building technology information services ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 21 13:04:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16811 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:04:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29137; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:49:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:45:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28802 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:45:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28784; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa2-p23.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.23]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA16537; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:53:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35B4C61B.2A76F0E@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:47:23 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frazer Dougherty CC: walshj@NU.COM, Greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: moisture content of wet spray cellulose References: <1.5.4.32.19980721142812.00a86b90@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3942 Frazer Dougherty wrote: > > While Arnie Katz gave you a good review of 'damp' vs 'wet' spray cellulose - > we have had good success in dense-packing cellulose after the drywall is in > place. Drilling thru the tape seam adds only a bit more spackle time and > assuming your framing techniques are reasonably advanced there ought to be > only minimal air-sealing preparation before the sheetrock goes up. > > Of course - you still need a good installer, will have to sweet talk the > building inspector, plus it would be a good idea to have some quality > control, blower door test & IR scan to insure no major voids. Frasure, Where are you placing the seams in the sheetrock, 4 feet above the floor? Are you using 3.5" or 5.5" studs? In my experience, cellulose will only dense pack within 2' of the blowing hole on a nominal 4" wall, less for a nominal 6" wall. If you are blowing a full 8' wall through one row of holes mid way up the wall, there is no way you can be achieving settled density throughout the cavity. Your IR tests may look good in the beginning but I doubt they will a few years down the road. For an 8' 2x4 wall we always use two rows of holes, one at 2' above the bottom plate, the other 2' below the top plate, leaving 4' between the holes. That way if it packs to a settled density 2' up from the lower hole and 2' down from the upper, all of the cavity is packed correctly. With a 2x6 wall we use 3 rows of holes. I can't believe you have been able to get the codes officer to accept this, unless you are installing your sheetrock in an unconventional way. If you lay your rock with 2 seams on an 8' high wall, do your finishers charge a higher rate per foot? I certainly do prefer dry, dense pack cellulose to the wet, if it is installed properly, but wet certainly has it's place. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 21 13:20:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA17389 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00440; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:06:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:03:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA29980 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:02:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bna.bellsouth.net (mail.bna.bellsouth.net [205.152.80.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29976 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:02:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spencers (host-209-214-112-34.bna.bellsouth.net [209.214.112.34]) by mail.bna.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA27396 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:12:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35B4CC7C.1AA5@bellsouth.net> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:14:36 -0500 From: spencers Reply-To: bardsong@bellsouth.net Organization: bardsong X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: mountain home?/Reply to Rubish References: <35B293B1.7DFA@hevanet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3943 M.Scott Jones: You don't know a thing about me, so quit it with your "please don't hurt the Earth" crap. Most of your statement deserves no explination, so I'll skip it. I will however let you and the others on this list (some of whom share your views) know a bit of what I'm about. Maybe you all can learn something. To start with if you would have looked at our site at http://spaceformusic.com/bardsong you'd have found I'm not the type person to do Earth harm. We build musical instruments from materials other companies disgard. We're talking about Gibson, Martin, ect. You know, the big guys who claim to build from eco-harvested woods. WEll, they wont even sell us their scrap anymore because we're competition. So now I get to spend my nights waist-deep in garbage dumpsters to get a few pieces of spruce/maple/mahogony/whatever. I also use contacts that work at these places to score what I need. It's like a spy game. I salvage everything I can find, sometimes we'll find things worth thousands of dollars that have been tossed. I now make a good living doing this. Now THAT'S environmentalism! I'm one of the few people I know who can make a living taking something destined for a landfill and turn it into a beautiful objet to bring joy to others for a lifetime. How many of you all can say the same? Very little, I'll bet. WE drive a 70's model vehical. Used. Reused. Funny, seems we're practicing what YOU preach. WE have a driveway and storage building just busting with salvaged windows/doors/wood/and enough building products to build our home. Which will be a TRUELY recycled home from mud. And I guarantee it will be one fine piece of art. We're all artists. God created us. Therefore we create. That's what he wants us to do. The Earth did not give us life. God did! The Earth is ours to use wisely. And I'm doing my part. And if my part includes a home in the mountains, fine with me. You can have your stinking city block and live in smog-filled splender. I'm going where I know there's gonna be some cool folks at. And we're gonna play in the dirt and tend to our gardens and strum our instruments and wear a smile everyday. BTW we're still looking for a piece of land around cool neighbors where we can build. So any sugestions will be greatly appreciated. And we'd like to hear where others live too. That's always nice. Shawn&Jen ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 21 13:35:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA17937 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01360; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:21:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:17:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00986 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:17:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00978 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:17:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1ABNa27851 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:26:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:26:36 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: moisture content of wet spray cellulose Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3944 In a message dated 7/21/98 2:11:31 AM, you wrote: >I have a client who is interested in wet spray cellulose and has several >questions. I would avoid wet spray and use net & blow (Blown in Blanket) which uses very little moisture as it is "wet" only enough to have the glue binder work properly. I have drywalled the next day with no problems. Great product, no down side that I've experienced. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave Assoc Contractors, Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 21 14:59:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA20921 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:59:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05775; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:45:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:41:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05455 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:41:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05448 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:40:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DJPYCBVL; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:48:13 EDT To: msjns@hevanet.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:38:06 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: mountain home? Message-ID: <19980721.145458.6566.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <35B293B1.7DFA@hevanet.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-8 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3945 Hi, Bravo! I concur 100%. The less virgin area developed the better. I have always preferred reuse to new construction and applaud your thoughtful reply. I hope more people will get the message and understand the true meaning of sustainable. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 22 00:26:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA09621 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:26:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA27645; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:06:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA27271 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:06:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1.sprynet.com (m1.sprynet.com [165.121.2.97]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27267 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:06:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cowpen (hdn112-008.hil.compuserve.com [206.175.110.8]) by m1.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA10113 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:15:43 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: "Mike Carter" From: "Mike Carter" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: mountain home? Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:12:00 -0500 Message-ID: <01bdb526$e03694a0$3e3a9ad1@cowpen> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3946 >If you build a new home in the mountains, you'll be increasing the human >footprint on the Earth. (Snippety-snip-snip) Well, that happened when you were born. Seriously, I've seen this argument appear time and again. It is simplistic and fundamentally flawed, based on some idealistic vision of what exists beyond city walls and some strange ecological assumptions about energy consumption of urban vrs. rural folk. Where does the energy required to run a city come from? Often from hundreds or even thousands of miles away, with transmission losses along the way. Food comes from all over the world - very little is grown in the city itself. Your water is pumped for miles and miles to get to you. Your waste is processed in an energy-intensive manner. People commute for miles within a city to get to work, trapped in traffic jams. Practically everything that was built or is consumed comes from somewhere else. Many take up parking space at work and office space that is vacant 3/4 of the time. All those malls, freeways, office buildings, parking lots, night lighting, etc. get charged to the average city dweller's "ecological account". The vision of land beyond the city being necessarily degraded by human habitation is questionable, unless you know of cities next to wilderness areas that are being opened up for development. Most of the surrounding land has already been plundered at one time or another. It is quite possible to actually improve the land's ability to support native plants and wildlife with careful stewardship. What it comes down to is that there is no dogmatic answer to this debate. Each set of individual circumstances need to be considered before you pass judgement. If you live in the city, try to live like Mr. Bolman if the code department will let you. If in the country, try and telecommute or find local work; enhance the land you are temporarily entrusted with. Anyone on this list is going to do a better job of it than most, anyway. Longtime downtown dweller and rural landowner, Mike Carter ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 22 06:13:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA17926 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:13:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA06427; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 05:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Jul 1998 05:49:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA06129 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 05:49:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA06121 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 05:49:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-16.netcom.ca [207.181.90.80]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA10481; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 05:57:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807220957.FAA10481@tor-smtp2.netcom.ca> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 04:47:43 -0400 To: "Mike Carter" From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: mountain home? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <01bdb526$e03694a0$3e3a9ad1@cowpen> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3947 At 11:12 PM 21/07/98 -0500, Mike Carter wrote: > >>If you build a new home in the mountains, you'll be increasing the human >>footprint on the Earth. (Snippety-snip-snip) > >Well, that happened when you were born. (snip) > Earth Island Journal published a well-done paper on this, titled "The Environmental Impact of US Babies", located at: http://www.earthisland.org/ei/journal/babies.html Best..........Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 22 13:58:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03750 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:58:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26052; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:44:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:39:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25287 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:39:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25283; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:39:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 198.5.254.162 (ke-ppp14.hevanet.com [198.5.254.164]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14023; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:48:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35B51B8F.2966@hevanet.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:51:59 +0000 From: "M. Scott Jones" Reply-To: msjns@hevanet.com Organization: The Ecotopia Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Beverly A. Weiter" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding-digest@crest.org Subject: GBlist: New buildings on open land References: <35B293B1.7DFA@hevanet.com> <19980721.145458.6566.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3948 I feel that I should better qualify my statements about new building construction. By upping the throughput of Earth matter and energy to rates that cannot be sustained, today's combined affects of overpopulation and overconsumption are putting us on the brink of eco-collapse. Hence the call for sustainable building in the first place. Can the production of new buildings on open land, no matter how "green" the materials, be sustained? Not unless the Earth grows proportionately larger with each new project. For consumption of the Earth's surface is a significant part of the loss of ecosystems. Because we already live in an "overfull" world, and our human footprint is already non-sustainable, the challenge before us now is to put an end to the expansion of the built environment on the Earth's surface, and then to reduce the total mass of the built environment. Will this put builders, engineers and designers out of business? On the contrary. As Stewart Brand noted in his book How Buildings Learn, rebuilidng and remodeling already make up 50 percent of the country's GDP of construction. This could easily be increased to 100 percent and beyond. First, there's the deconstruction of buildings and roads that will need to be done. Then there's the rebuilding of existing townscapes (most of these are unhealthy, as we know, and god-damn ugly), restoration of urban waterbodies, and restoration of urban lands into eco-productive greenspaces. This is the exciting work before us. This is what we should be calling for, and loud and clear in answer to the "development must go on" rhetoric. Lest anyone fear that I am recommending a new Haussmannia, while cities and regions can and should set standards for reducing human impact, for the transition of our cities and towns into ecological places to work, small neighborhoods will have to be at the fore of how this will be carried forth. Human sensitivity to the needs of the Earth cannot go forward without increased democratic involvement in the look, placement, use, and layout of our built environments. There needs to be a great deal of consciousness raising among those who want to live in cohousing developments. Too many cohousing projects are going up, or are being planned for, on suburban or country lands. The argument that "if we don't do it, then a typical subdivision will go up instead" is a cop-out. Just as littering and pollution went out of fashion in the 70s, and unbridled old-growth logging in the 80s, people must call for the end to the production of new houses on open land. There are tons of one and two story buildings existing along what could be, or were originally, main streets in our cities. At the same time that we restore built-on lands to greenspaces, these buildings could easily have two or three more floors added on to them for housing and offices. When people can walk or cycle to do most of their journeying to work, market, or play. When rail becomes the primary means of the remaining long-distance transport, the huge transportation infrastructures will greatly diminish, freeing up more land for greenspace and some new buildings. What to do about population growth? Well, this gets into economics and globalism, which is the preeminent instigator of growth. The construction of new buildings on open land is intregal to this, in that it gives the false signal that there is more room to accommodate more people, when there really isn't. As far as models of urban cohousing developments, I know of one in Portland, called On Going Concerns, which was started quite a few years ago, and which is on an existing inner city block using the existing housing stock. If anyone knows of others, please let us all know. I suggested that those who want to live in the country take over an otherwise condemned farm. This is should only be if you are serious about being stewards of the land and are going to produce crops and contribute to the local economy, as opposed to agribusiness, which destroys it. Tourism brings more growth and destroys real small town community. Export is heavily transport-dependent. The only realistic alternative is a true return to the local. There's a chance that this posting will bring more questions than answers. Don't worry, I am writing a book about it. -- M. Scott Jones, The Ecotopia Project msjns@hevanet.com "The Oregon Growth Machine and How to Stop It" http://www.tnews.com/text/news.html#portland "Within you always are calm protecting waters, even if on the outside a terrible storm is brewing." Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > > Hi, > > Bravo! I concur 100%. The less virgin area developed the better. I > have always preferred reuse to new construction and applaud your > thoughtful reply. I hope more people will get the message and understand > the true meaning of sustainable. > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 22 14:12:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04264 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:12:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA27253; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:55:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26771 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:54:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26759; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:54:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip85.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.85]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA25918; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:04:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980722181328.007323a4@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:13:28 -0400 To: Greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: moisture content of wet spray cellulose Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA26760 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3949 Chuck - It's one thing to be able to sweet talk a building inspector into accepting something different - but we have to do it with central ventilation systems vs. fans in every bath, exhaust/intake placement on sealed combustion systems, Insul-Aid vs. poly, etc.. It is another to know that good insulators have been dense-packing cellulose in retrofit situations for more than a decade - they use an 8', 1.25" diameter hose and use it to get all the way into corners, etc - packing at 3.5 to 4 lbs. (see Sidewall Insulation & Air Leakage Control, Home Energy magazine January/February 1990 - try ) A swivel nozzle will not do it - see for a job where the insulator used a swivel nozzle, creating large voids where the framing was tied to the exterior wall. Gyp is generally installed horizontally and removing a full sheet to show owners, inspectors or the other trades, a completely full cavity that springs back to the touch can be a powerful argument. We had one job where the electrician hadn't installed a sub panel in a garage wall, after cutting through the gyp, he yelled "what is this stuff !!". By the time I got there, he had a perfect empty rectangle for the panel box with undisturbed and still packed cellulose on either side. A lot of our work is gutted/retrofit, generally old 2x4's (sometime 2x3's) and we use 1" tuff-r, dense-pack thru that and then ½" gyp. My insulator started using roofing nails to hold the rigid foam in place, but found that in getting the correct density too many boards started popping off - we now use a 2" washer behind the nail. Also - the combination of 1" foam & ½" gyp works wonders in straightening out all but the worst old framing. > >Chuck Hinckley >Ash Creek Design >Earlville, NY > best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 22 15:00:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05846 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:00:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02224; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:46:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:41:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01858 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01843; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:40:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA6-p9.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.137]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA01300; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:49:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35B632CB.5AA16D73@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:43:23 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frazer Dougherty CC: Greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: moisture content of wet spray cellulose References: <1.5.4.32.19980722181328.007323a4@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3950 Frasure, Point taken, we have used the system you describe several times through the years and have had reasonable success with it. The only objection I have with it is the added time required for blowing through the reduced hose, we blow through a 2 1/8" hole, but from a density POV it certainly can work. If your insulation contractor doesn't charge more for the added time or two rows of holes are impossible, then it certainly would be cost effective. Thanks for the clarification, no offense intended, it just seems that we often leave out valuable details when describing alternative systems that may be new to others. Chuck Hinckley PS. I don't seem to see an archive for 1990 at the URL you listed, I only see 93-98. Frazer Dougherty wrote: > > It is another to know that good insulators have been dense-packing cellulose > in retrofit situations for more than a decade - they use an 8', 1.25" > diameter hose and use it to get all the way into corners, etc - packing at > 3.5 to 4 lbs. (see Sidewall Insulation & Air Leakage Control, Home Energy > magazine January/February 1990 - try ) > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 22 22:53:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20661 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25281; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:39:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:34:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA25032 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:34:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25027 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:33:55 -0400 (EDT) From: DOMUSPLUS@aol.com Received: from DOMUSPLUS@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1PFLa17153 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:42:51 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <8a0f9b3b.35b6a32d@aol.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 22:42:51 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: MirrorSeal Roofing System Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3951 Does anyone have experience with the MirrorSeal Roof System by Innovative Formulations out of Tuscon? Can this system be used in cold climates (Chicago)? What's the warranty? Thanks. Paul Knight Architect Domus PLUS Oak Park, IL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 23 09:47:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07692 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:47:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12053; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:33:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:29:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11675 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:28:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11668 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA12-p4.dreamscape.com [209.4.255.4]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA09753 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:38:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35B73B43.A9F0E801@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:31:47 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: House plans environmental vote Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3952 July 23, 1998 House Plans Environmental Votes A.P. INDEXES: TOP STORIES | NEWS | SPORTS | BUSINESS | TECHNOLOGY | ENTERTAINMENT Filed at 4:04 a.m. EDT By The Associated Press WASHINGTON (AP) -- Two major spending bills before the House are setting the stage for another confrontation between Congress and the administration over protecting the environment -- and the idea is to see who blinks first. The House was expected today to approve a $13.4 billion bill to fund the Interior Department and then take up another bill that provides money for the Environmental Protection Agency and other environmental programs. Both bills contain what Vice President Al Gore calls ``anti-environmental riders'' that could make them subject to a presidential veto. The Interior legislation rejects a request from the administration for sharp increases in spending for energy efficiency programs and renewable energy technology research. Energy efficiency programs would get $632 million, about $200 million less than what Clinton had wanted. The shortfall would have been more had not lawmakers agreed Wednesday to add $45 million for energy efficiency. While the bill would boost overall spending for operating national parks, it ignores another one of the administration's environmental priorities: an aggressive campaign to purchase selected parcels of land for Acadia National Park in Maine to the historic Baca Ranch in the Southwest and additions to Florida's Everglades National Park. Rep. Ralph Regula, R-Ohio, the Interior spending bill's floor leader, said the money is better spent for maintenance and other park programs. As a result, the administration's $270 million requests for public land purchases was cut in half and $362 million approved last year has not been released. The bill would scrap a six-state Columbia River ecosystem management program in the Northwest. Critics call it a failure that infringes on property rights and local rule. Supporters say the program is essential to protect natural resources and species, including the salmon. Administration officials say a veto is likely if language killing the program remains in the bill. Other provisions prompting controversy: -- Disagreement over spending for endangered species protection. The administration wanted an additional $36 million, but got little of it. Without the money it won't be able to pursue 16 of 45 ``habitat conservation'' agreements, Interior officials say. -- A shortfall in what the administration wanted for Interior and Forest Service clean water programs. It wanted a $128 million increase, but got little of that money. --Increases in timber sales over what the administration sought. --A mandate for a road easement across the Chugach National Forest in Alaska that would prevent the federal government from imposing safeguards for environmental protection. Regula defended the spending levels. He said, for example, if the administration were to get all the energy efficiency money it wanted, spending for other programs would have to be cut. ``It's a matter of balance,'' he said. Instead of money for new land purchases, Regula thinks the money ought to go for increased park maintenance. Meanwhile, a separate EPA spending bill has prompted even greater outcry from the administration because it would impose restrictions on spending for programs addressing climate change -- mainly for efficiency programs and research to spur into renewable energy technology. The bill would increase EPA spending $60 million to $7.4 billion. But it falls $368 million short of what the administration had sought, largely because of less money for Superfund toxic waste cleanup. Most controversial, the bill would bar money from being spent on activities related to the global warming agreement reached in Kyoto last December until the treaty comes before Congress. And it would prevent the EPA from promoting the climate debate. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 23 11:56:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA12345 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:56:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19222; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:41:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:38:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18913 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:37:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from harrier.csrv.uidaho.edu (root@harrier.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.224]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18901 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kurt (dialin121.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.131]) by harrier.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA02776; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35B75A54.1965@uidaho.edu> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 08:44:20 -0700 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: cneurath@northnet.org CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: radiant barrier References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3953 I'm considering using a foil-faced polyisocyanurate rigid foam insulation (Tuff R) between 2x4 rafters in a retrofit attic space. Ours is primarily a heating climate, although it does reach 100+ dF during summer months (now, for instance). I've always used the general rule of thumb, face the heated space, but with the summer heat right now, I'm reconsidering. Which way to face the foil...? Thanks for any replies, thoughts Kurt Rathmann Moscow, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 23 14:30:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18010 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26181; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:15:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:11:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25615 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:10:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25595 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:10:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA52486; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:18:02 -0600 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:18:02 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Kurt Rathmann Cc: cneurath@northnet.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: radiant barrier In-Reply-To: <35B75A54.1965@uidaho.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3954 Kurt: Down. Emissivity is not affected. If facing up, you may have a serious problem with dust build-up which would negate the radiant effort. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 23 14:30:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18009 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:30:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26179; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:15:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:11:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25622 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:10:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25594; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:10:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay1.mnsinc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA04541; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:19:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35B75A54.1965@uidaho.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:18:22 -0400 To: Green building list , Energy Eff Building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: radiant barrier Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3955 980723 I, too, am trying to moderate temps in a similarly framed (trusses) attic space. I put the ? of ventilation & insulation to the "Breaktime" (Fine Homebuilding Mag), and Hometime (the pbs show) discussion groups. There is much controversy over what to do, venting vs not, insulation methods, etc. Pls share your opinions about how to cool down a (for us here in VA) 135 deg space so we can at least store things there with out baking them. Thanks as always jh ----------- >I'm considering using a foil-faced polyisocyanurate rigid foam >insulation (Tuff R) between 2x4 rafters in a retrofit attic space. Ours >is primarily a heating climate, although it does reach 100+ dF during >summer months (now, for instance). >I've always used the general rule of thumb, face the heated space, but >with the summer heat right now, I'm reconsidering. Which way to face >the foil...? > >Thanks for any replies, thoughts >Kurt Rathmann >Moscow, Idaho *** [helpful list efficiency note--trim out unnecessary items on reply postings, such as the list tail--no point in repeating it] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 23 20:05:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA28733 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:05:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10691; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:50:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:47:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10415 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:46:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA10411 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:46:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA1-b11.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.172]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA28657 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:56:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35B7CC2A.ECFCD7E8@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 19:50:02 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: interior bill Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3956 WASHINGTON (AP) -- The House approved a $13.4 billion spending bill Thursday for natural resource and energy programs including more money for national parks, but refused to include more than $300 million President Clinton had wanted for climate change initiatives and land purchases. The legislation to fund Interior and Energy Department programs, approved by a 245-181 vote, still awaits Senate action and faces a possible presidential veto over energy efficiency and land spending as well as over several controversial environmental provisions. After the vote, lawmakers turned to a second spending bill, funding the Environmental Protection Agency, that -- like the Interior bill -- included a string of controversial environmental ``riders'' including one that would block the administration from taking actions on global warming, or even publicly debating the issue. _____________________________________________________________________ snipped unrelated internet gambling stuff ________________________________________________________________________ The House's spending limits for natural resource programs brought a sharp response from Interior Secretary Bruce Babbitt, who likened it to a previous Republican assault on environmental laws. ``It's 1995 all over again. Rather than attempting to repeal or gut these laws head-on, they're doing it by starving the programs,'' Babbitt said in a telephone interview. A shortfall in money for the endangered species program will threaten efforts to develop new agreements with private groups for species protection, he said. ``We're going to have to start shutting that pipeline down,'' said Babbitt. The Interior bill would scrap a Northwest regional ecosystem management program for the six-state Columbia River Basis, a program the administration has touted as the only way to avoid future conflict and court battles over endangered species protection. Critics had argued the program, which has cost $40 million so far, infringes on property rights and local control. Rep. George Nethercutt, R-Wash., called it a ``monstrosity (that) has become a nightmare.'' ``If we completely blow this up we will end up with ... lawsuits,'' retorted Rep. Norman Dicks, D-Wash., a supporter of the regional program. But an attempt to salvage the program failed 202-221. The administration has threatened a possible veto unless the Columbia River basin program is preserved. Babbitt predicted that without the program, ``it will be another spotted owl train wreck'' over protecting salmon and other imperiled species in the Northwest. Energy efficiency programs, a key component of the administration's efforts to address global warming, would get $632 million, about $200 million less than what Clinton sought. The shortfall would have been greater if lawmakers had not agreed Wednesday to add $45 million. While the bill would boost overall spending for operating national parks, lawmakers provided money for only about half of the public land purchases the administration requested, including only $20 million of an $81 million request for Florida Everglades land purchases. The House also refused to release $272 million, appropriated last year, for buying selected parcels of land in and near refuges, parks and wilderness areas. Rep. Ralph Regula, R-Ohio, the Interior spending bill's floor leader, said the money is better spent for maintenance and other park programs. Concerning climate change-related energy efficiency programs, Regula said the issue came down to choosing where to spend a limited amount of money. ``It's a matter of balance,'' insisted Regula, who has argued that choices had to be made within the spending caps required under the budget agreement. The measure also provided less than what the administration wanted for Interior and Forest Service clean water programs, and it would require an easement for a road across the Chugach National Forest in Alaska. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 24 11:06:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22540 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07151; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:51:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:45:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06676 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:45:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06672 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:45:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA05134 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:54:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va15-56.ix.netcom.com(207.223.179.120) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma005063; Fri Jul 24 09:53:35 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980724105154.00684084@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:51:56 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Radiant Barrier Systems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3957 Radiant Barrier Systems -- DOE "RBS" Fact Sheet -------------------------------------------------- I will scan and place on our web site at the URL below, a copy of a useful document on RBS created by DOE in the early 1990's. It is also still available from the Alliance to Save Energy (I think) and from the National Tech. Information Center in Oak Ridge, TN. Most of the work compiling the brochure, and the handy worksheets included to calculate whether RBS is cost effective compared to adding typical insulation products, is based on research conducted by Phil Fairey and Subrato Chandra at the Florida Solar Energy Center. The RBS fact sheet will be made available (by 7/25/98) at: ---------------------- additional discussion --------------------- Maryland RBS test home: We monitored an RBS equipped attic in a suburban Maryland single family home for 6 years, following one year of monitoring without RBS installed in the same attic. I found no statistically significant reduction in air-conditioning usage (and for that matter no statistically significant _increase_ in heating). The RBS used was perforated to avoid moisture damming, and laid horizontal over R-30 mineral fibrous batt insulation. Data was normalized to the Hyattsville, MD weather data; closest std. station. Using a "WeatherMeasure" net radiometer positioned over the RBS surface in the attic, we measured the overall long-wave balance of the attic. We found that about 5% more long wave energy was transferred into the mineral fiber batt insulation prior to installing the RBS, than after. Max/min thermometer readings (read weekly) in the attic air space showed in summer the RBS equipped attic was on average 10 deg F warmer than the insulated attic (prior to RBS installation). The attic was well ventilated with soffit and ridge venting. House was built by Washington Homes, and met the Maryland "E-7" energy program, 1988. The house had only minor air leakage between the conditioned spaces and the attic cavity of about 0.04 ACH according to PFT measurements. The whole house natural ACH was 0.28, and ventilation consisted of bath fans and kitchen spot venting. (PFT = passive per-fluorocarbon tracer; method of test developed by Brookhaven National Labs) After 6 years there was visible dusting over the RBS surface, but microscopic examination indicated the dust and pollen grains were too large in diameter to directly interfere with IR-wave lengths. There was more dusting near the center of the attic and less accumulation near the soffit vents, as might be expected in a well vented attic. There was also some oxidation of the surface, combined with moderate to light dusting, leading to an overall increase in emissivity of the aluminum surface from .10 when new to 0.18 to 0.22 aged 6 years (derived from small coupons clipped and analyzed for emittance). No moisture accumulation or ghosting marks under the conventional insulation was detected on attic framing upon random removal and inspection across the attic. However, no wood moisture reading were taken in the attic due to lack of instrumentation. Unpublished NAHB Research Center Study on "Eagle Shield" In the late 1980's the NAHB RC performed a 50 house, double blind study of a two-sided horizontally deployed RBS system, then sold as "Eagle Shield." The study was conducted in Northern Virginia, and data was gathered for about 3 months before the client terminated the study. Using weekly kWh utility meter readings and RBS status information (deployed versus not deployed) in the homes' attics, no statistically significant reduction in either total electric usage or A/C consumption (as logged weekly with compressor run-time meters) was found. However, since the full cooling season was not entirely analyzed these results can not be considered conclusive. No peer reviewed paper could be published on this study due to its termination. The two studies above, both of which I was involved in conducting (along with many other technicians...) appear to indicate that in mid-Atlantic climates like Baltimore, Northern Virginia, DC, etc. installing RBS in __already well insulated__ attics may not perform up to expectations in reducing air-conditioning usage. However, in hotter sunny climates of the southern tier US where less attic insulation may be installed in existing homes, RBS systems may indeed be cost effective especially where electric utilities have summer peaking or time-of-use rates targeting A/C use. We would recommend the following: 1. inspect the attic for any moisture damage, un repaired air-leaks to conditioned spaces (CS), gasket transoms or attic stairs, etc. (good building science to lessen communication between attic and CS 2. install good attic ventilation; soffit to ridge venting preferred (other research shows power attic ventilation often uses more electric power to operate than the energy saved...) 3. verify there is sufficient conventional insulation in the attic, especially if the climate has greater than 1,500 heating degree days 4. deploy RBS systems with low-emissive surface pointing downward toward the top surface of attic insulation, and ensure there is good ventilation between the upper surface of the RBS and the roof sheathing. 5. minimize disturbance of existing attic insulation during installing RBS | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 24 11:39:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23691 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09135; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:25:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:21:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08818 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:21:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08814 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:21:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Alisa (usr0a66.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.66]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA11980; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:31:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980724113228.0068f328@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:32:28 -0400 To: DOMUSPLUS@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: MirrorSeal Roofing System In-Reply-To: <8a0f9b3b.35b6a32d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3958 At 10:42 PM 7/22/98 EDT, DOMUSPLUS@aol.com wrote: >Does anyone have experience with the MirrorSeal Roof System by Innovative >Formulations out of Tuscon? Can this system be used in cold climates >(Chicago)? What's the warranty? Thanks. > >Paul Knight >Architect >Domus PLUS >Oak Park, IL Hey PAul, The Yestermorrow Design Build school in Warren Vermont experimented with the material and got bad results-I believe that they may not have applied it according to the manufacturer's spec's.So this particular case may not be applicable. But I can attest to seeing a roof in a cold wet climate with mirror seal on it leaking- Danny Sagan, Randolph VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 24 12:17:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24731 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:17:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11436; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:02:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:59:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA11072 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11065 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:58:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Cheetah (1Cust29.tnt29.sfo3.da.uu.net [208.255.80.29]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA04568 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807241608.JAA04568@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Sender: envdiv@mail.earthlink.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Michelle Randall Subject: GBlist: Lead Cable Borer Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3959 Hi all, Just back from vacation and hoping that you are all enjoying the summer... Is anyone familiar with the Lead Cable Borer? A concern in using wine tank stock as siding, is that this bug finds it irresistable. Does anyone know if the Borer goes after beer tank stock as well, or is it a wine snob? Looking forward to hearing from you... Michelle ********************* Michelle Randall Division Manager - Green Building Materials Hayward Lumber 429 Front Street, Salinas, CA 93901 Tel: 408/755-8805 Fax: 408/424-3039 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jul 25 02:02:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA22867 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 02:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA09863; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:44:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA09658 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:44:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA09654 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 01:44:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust158.tnt6.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.17.158]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA12649; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35B972C2.5F36@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:53:07 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Michelle Randall Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Cable Borer References: <199807241608.JAA04568@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3960 Michelle Randall wrote: > > Hi all, > Just back from vacation and hoping that you are all enjoying the summer... > Is anyone familiar with the Lead Cable Borer? A concern in using wine tank > stock as siding, is that this bug finds it irresistable. Does anyone know > if the Borer goes after beer tank stock as well, or is it a wine snob? > Looking forward to hearing from you... > Michelle Michelle: Oh boy, I could write volumes. Technically, these are Bostricid beetles, _Scobia declivis_. They are NOT well-known, and little is in the literature. Perhaps the best expert is Dr Vernard Lewis at UC Berkeley 510 642-5565, or Doug Carver of Live Oak Structural 510 524-7107. The adults emerge in summer, breed quickly, and then the female bores to lay the eggs. they hatch in 3 sweeks,larvae live about 9 months, pupate for 2 weeks. The greatest damage comes when the adults bore out to emerge, but the female will also bore through anything to find a place to bury the eggs (thus the name). Yes they love wine vat redwood (nothing has ever been said about beer as far as I know), and in my brief experience with them, the wetter the wood, the more they go for it. They seem to flourish in the natural environment following fires. They are native to N California, Oregon & Washington. The larvae are virtually indestructable. I've heard of a case where a house was tented with Methyl Bromide at maximum legal strength (at 3 lbs/1000 cf, something like 6 times the concentration used in "normal" tenting) 5 times in a row...and the beetles were not destroyed. Yikes! In short, they are insidious. I met up with them in a house we built in 1992. Both Doug and Vernard helped out immensely, and they got to learn about these bugs as well. Instead of consuming lots of new wood for the house, I tried to utilize wine vat redwood. There is a fair amount of it, with California wineries converting from wood to stainless tanks.(there are have been literally millions of board geet of this wood available) We used it for exposed roof decking, fascia, battens, trim, decks, entry steps...you name it. Gorgeous stuff, fine-smelling. It was one of those good intentions that went all awry. We ended up doing localized applicationg of Timbor (disodium octaborate tetrahydrate, a salt or borax, which is "relatively" innocuous) around boring holes in the ceilings, replacing most of the exterior wood with conventionally-harvested redwood. Within a season they stopped appearing. Whew! A secondary problem with the wine redwood - it has lots of sugar in it, and it mildews readily. Another problem is that the wine seems to have taken some of the life out of the wood. The exterior trim did not hold up well to weathering at all. Very disappointing. It might be fine for garden boxes and furniture (Smith & Hawkin was buying a lot of it at one time), but I would not recommend that it be used in a house. seth melchert master builders ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jul 25 12:33:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA05815 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:33:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20993; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:18:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:14:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20548 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:14:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20544 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:14:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.48] (uc17.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.82]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA07983 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:23:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:31:56 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: footprints Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3961 Hi folks, I find this an absolutely beautiful thread because of the way listers tell their stories. However difficult it may be, communication happens. Thought I'd chime in with my own experiences. Here they are in no particular order. I ask you to recll as you read them they are internal arguments. "Intellect is a flyspeck on the sea of emotion" - I've heard this attributed to Carl Junge, who in my opinion had an overinflated idea of intellect. Upon reflection, I find I don't need another person involved to have the city-mouse-country mouse arguement. I grew up in the country and feel most comfortable there. I've lived in the South End of Boston and Washington DC and enjoyed city life (5 years in Boston, no car, no TV, no money - involuntary simplicity??) After studying ecology and economics at Antioch, New England, I avoided going to NYC for over a decade because it was excruciatingly painful for me to see so large a population so completely unaware of how they made their living on the planet (food, clothing, water and shelter mass/energy flowwise that is). In 1980 I overlaid a two maps of New York (State that is), one showing how much toxic waste wasproduced in each county and the other showing how much toxic waste was disposed of in each county. Twp things were apparent. Toxic waste is produced in metropolitan counties and diposed of in rural counties. And two, lot of toxic waste went missing. The whole business really pissed me off because it was so-damn-unfair. In social policy class I was told that the way to select a waste disposal site (or any site with significant adverse local impact) is to find a county with only a small central metropolitan area because: 1) fewer people will be affected 2) there are few organized groups to resist 3) there are few entities with lot's of money providing lot's of jobs to resist 4) the site is cheaper 5) local government has little money for attourneys, planners, environmental and social scientists And that pissed me off too (getting the pattern here? I felt singled out and victemized because I was born in and needed the country, the quiet, the stars, the plants and animals, the sound of falling water) ... I have posted on this list that my first advice to someone who wants to make a green building is don't build it new - rehab something in NYC and you can make it out of spotted owls and it'll still be green to me. For a long time I was stuck, unable to do anything that made sense about urban-rural issues because I blamed city-dwellers for rural problems. When I got tired of being being stuck, I remembered central place theory used by geographers (an odder bunch I've never met). My understanding of this theory is that cities require fairly large rural areas to support them, and given a flat plane, with dispersed, uniform, homogeneous resources population centers will cover the plane in a pattern which greatly resembles fungi colonizing a piece of damp sheetrock. As I look at central place theory now, I see that the idea that there is a rural economy separate from the urban economy is an illusion. Like soil-fungi and pine trees, we are obligate symbiants - can't live without each other. The urban population supports the rural life just as surely as the reverse. I've found blame is a losers game. It disables me from taking actions that can meet my needs. I get much farther in solving my difficulties with urban impacts when I pry my white-knuckled, clenched fists from around peoples throats and find out what they're trying to do. Then I can develo some compassion, let myself off the hook by letting them off the hook and get on with solving the conflicts. "Sometimes I live in the country, sometimes I live in town, sometimes I take a great notion, to jump in the river and drown" - Huddy Ledbetter Warmest regards to my friends - city or country ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jul 25 13:07:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA06606 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:07:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22292; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:53:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:49:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21996 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:49:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21989 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 12:49:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust24.tnt4.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.12.24]) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA28881 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:59:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35BA0EC3.3BBE@earthlink.net> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 09:58:43 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: Lead Cable Borer] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3962 Message-ID: <35B972C2.5F36@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 22:53:07 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Michelle Randall Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Cable Borer References: <199807241608.JAA04568@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michelle Randall wrote: > > Hi all, > Just back from vacation and hoping that you are all enjoying the summer... > Is anyone familiar with the Lead Cable Borer? A concern in using wine tank > stock as siding, is that this bug finds it irresistable. Does anyone know > if the Borer goes after beer tank stock as well, or is it a wine snob? > Looking forward to hearing from you... > Michelle Michelle: Oh boy, I could write volumes. Technically, these are Bostricid beetles, _Scobia declivis_. They are NOT well-known, and little is in the literature. Perhaps the best expert is Dr Vernard Lewis at UC Berkeley 510 642-5565, or Doug Carver of Live Oak Structural 510 524-7107. The adults emerge in summer, breed quickly, and then the female bores to lay the eggs. they hatch in 3 sweeks,larvae live about 9 months, pupate for 2 weeks. The greatest damage comes when the adults bore out to emerge, but the female will also bore through anything to find a place to bury the eggs (thus the name). Yes they love wine vat redwood (nothing has ever been said about beer as far as I know), and in my brief experience with them, the wetter the wood, the more they go for it. They seem to flourish in the natural environment following fires. They are native to N California, Oregon & Washington. The larvae are virtually indestructable. I've heard of a case where a house was tented with Methyl Bromide at maximum legal strength (at 3 lbs/1000 cf, something like 6 times the concentration used in "normal" tenting) 5 times in a row...and the beetles were not destroyed. Yikes! In short, they are insidious. I met up with them in a house we built in 1992. Both Doug and Vernard helped out immensely, and they got to learn about these bugs as well. Instead of consuming lots of new wood for the house, I tried to utilize wine vat redwood. There is a fair amount of it, with California wineries converting from wood to stainless tanks.(there are have been literally millions of board geet of this wood available) We used it for exposed roof decking, fascia, battens, trim, decks, entry steps...you name it. Gorgeous stuff, fine-smelling. It was one of those good intentions that went all awry. We ended up doing localized applicationg of Timbor (disodium octaborate tetrahydrate, a salt or borax, which is "relatively" innocuous) around boring holes in the ceilings, replacing most of the exterior wood with conventionally-harvested redwood. Within a season they stopped appearing. Whew! A secondary problem with the wine redwood - it has lots of sugar in it, and it mildews readily. Another problem is that the wine seems to have taken some of the life out of the wood. The exterior trim did not hold up well to weathering at all. Very disappointing. It might be fine for garden boxes and furniture (Smith & Hawkin was buying a lot of it at one time), but I would not recommend that it be used in a house. seth melchert master builders ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jul 25 13:43:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA07439 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23283; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:25:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22977 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22973 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:25:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id GGBTa26053; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:33:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9af9adad.35ba16fa@aol.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 13:33:44 EDT To: Terry@dreamscape.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org (greenbuilding) Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: footprints Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3963 In a message dated 98-07-25 12:26:07 EDT, you write: << I've found blame is a losers game. It disables me from taking actions that can meet my needs. I get much farther in solving my difficulties with urban impacts when I pry my white-knuckled, clenched fists from around peoples throats and find out what they're trying to do. Then I can develo some compassion, let myself off the hook by letting them off the hook and get on with solving the conflicts. >> Terry, I couldn't agree more ! Most are not likely to listen whole-heartedly when gasping for air due to a "well-intentioned" choke-hold. Most of the time with the over 40 general population it's a matter of simply not being aware enough to think about the impact the choices in existence make. Hopefully, educating our younger generations while they are still in school will result in adults that have consideration for the choices they make. If an individual relocates to a rural area and raises awareness in that area to the long-time inhabitants of this location to the value of their environment, resources and natural habitats, all the while, keeping the impact of their existence to an absolute minimum...is that area not better off than if they had never come? What if it causes some of the locals to reconsider dumping left over paint thinner, pesticides or other chemicals down the sink, on the ground or in a creek? In alot of rural areas, especially in some areas of South America & Asia, rural populations are so focused on their own survival that little thought or education is focused on insuring the future of the land they depend on for the generations to come. If they introduced to ways to accomplish this, save resources, and often times better the quality of their lives they are usually willing students...just my .2¢ Hope everyone has a nice week-end. Regards, Cathy Flanders IAQ List Manager Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq IAQ Listserve (to view archives) http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/iaq Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://members.tripod.com/~rkfabf/index.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jul 25 14:29:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA08470 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:29:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25215; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:15:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:11:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24962 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:11:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24958 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:11:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcoplos@aol.com Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id GTRNa02268; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5d8afa82.35ba21b1@aol.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 14:19:28 EDT To: Terry@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: footprints Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3964 Terry wrote: "I've found blame is a losers game. It disables me from taking actions that can meet my needs." It should be OK to place blame. We get caught up in the futility and bad feeling of blaming individuals, when what is generally at the root of nearly all of these problems is an economic system in which democracy has been allowed to be subsumed by authoritarian corporate entities of unprecedented power. We must focus blame on the system and those relative few who control it. If we don't come to grips with this economic & social reality, we're just pissing into the wind. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jul 26 11:11:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA06835 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:11:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28395; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:56:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:52:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28088 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:52:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28077 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:52:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5 [134.117.136.25]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id KAA01321; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id KAA12375; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 10:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199807261458.KAA12375@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re:footprints (OFF TOPIC) Cc: rkfabf@aol.com Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3965 on Sat, 25 Jul 1998 Rkfabf@aol.com wrote: > If an individual relocates to a rural area and raises > awareness in that area to the long-time inhabitants of this > location to the value of their environment, resources and > natural habitats [snip] > In alot of rural areas, especially in some areas of South > America & Asia, rural populations are so focused on their > own survival that little thought or education is focused on > insuring the future of the land they depend on for the > generations to come. [snip] Hello Urban/Rural Greenies; Apologies for this off-topic rant which re-states the obvious but the above post compelled me to respond. In time span of a mere 200-or so years, the "more forward thinking peoples" of the US (and Canada) have managed to take a virgin, pristene continent and poison the air, water and soil to such an extent that the Inuit (aka "Eskimos") at the far northern reaches of this continent are being advised to not eat the toxin-laced meat of the whales and seals that they have traditionally hunted (as opposed to heading down to the Safeway Supermarket at the local mall) and depended upon for sustenance. It seems to me that most of the "unenlightened" (as inferred above) inhabitants of the above-mentioned rural areas of SA and Asia have been living in a comfortable balance thank-you-very-much with their surroundings for centuries (if not for millenia)... and they'd have some powerful catching-up to do in order to match the environmental despotism that we Smug North Americans have practised. One might ask why these so-called backward peoples are "so focussed on their survival" when at the same time, we have overweight North Americans in thick sweaters and Birkenstocks with their tummies full of quiche, touring around the urban jungle in 4-wheel drive SUVs. Could the answer be that the QuicheHeads "are so focused on their own survival that little thought or education is focused on insuring the future of the land they depend on for the generations to come" and the effects of such are putting undue pressure on the rest of the planet to maintain this lifestyle ? -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jul 26 11:30:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07226 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28908; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:15:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:11:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28695 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:11:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28690 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:11:38 -0400 (EDT) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: from ANovelli@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1UMTa29490; Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:20:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <66f220c9.35bb4945@aol.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 11:20:35 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: ANovelli@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: footprints Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3966 >>I've found blame is a losers game. It disables me from taking actions that can meet my needs.<< >>We must focus blame on the system and those relative few who control it. If we don't come to grips with this economic & social reality, we're just pissing into the wind.<< AHA !! Final proof my theorem holds! "If it isn't paradoxical, it can't be true." Tony Novelli ;^) (working on succint-ness) . . . . Okay, can't resist. As my buddy Judy says, there truly is no "Them." Them usually incorporates others, or groups of others that are too large or slippery to get our choke-holds on. We cannot, in true honesty (and of course, IMHO) call anyone 'them' if they happen to take advantage of a basic theorem (yes, two in one post!) that is an essential part of human nature: When we feel strong, safe, secure, abundant etc., we are usually givers; when we feel scared, insecure, tired, sick, etc., we can be, and are often, takers. Daniel Quinn (in "Ishamel") speaks to this most eloquently, so I won't belabor it. What I will say is that human occupation/population has become so huge in relation to food supplies and open spaces that most of us rarely feel abundant enough to be totally generous. We do, but at sizable cost to our sanity and health. This ratio of us to nature almost forces us to either kill ourselves off or evolve. And so we do both. Who will win? Who can honestly say they're completely on one side or the other? Isn't the pace of evolution (and I'm talking on a number of levels here) the keystone of our sense of things getting worse or better? Where is peace? Or peaceful coexistence? And what part of "them" (or "us") do we want to invite? Or more personally, what part of "us" do we need to nurture to allow ourselves to live, love, work, play, and negotiate from a place of abundance? Blessings ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 27 07:50:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA07920 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:50:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA05703; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:35:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:29:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA05383 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:29:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scorpion.netspace.net.au (scorpion.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.106]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA05377 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:29:14 -0400 (EDT) From: oikos@netspace.net.au Received: from hurricane.netspace.net.au (hurricane.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.65]) by scorpion.netspace.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA17724 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:39:10 +1000 (EST) Received: from lizard (dialup-m1-51.Sydney.netspace.net.au [210.15.248.51]) by hurricane.netspace.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA23477 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 21:38:49 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <35BCAE70.7259@netspace.net.au> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:44:32 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Non ferrous reinforcement References: <35B434E1.873@netspace.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3967 Dear Listmembers I am trying to find information on non-ferrous reinforcements for concrete slabs/footings such as polyethelene rebar and bamboo. Does someone out there have some contact address/web sites and experience using the polyethelene rebar? As I recall the latter material bamboo had been used by Pinny Fisk? and is used in Spain or spanish speaking Latin America? Any information regarding its use, testing, etc in any language would be greatly appreciated. Regards -- John DAGLISH eco-tecture, baubiologie & permaculture email: mailto:oikos@netspace.net.au www: http://www.netspace.net.au/~oikos ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 27 10:51:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA13844 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:51:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14237; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:37:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:31:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13797 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:31:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ci.portland.or.us (pdxnet.ci.portland.or.us [207.109.34.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13786 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linux1.bis.city (root@linux1.bis.city [10.80.1.15]) by ci.portland.or.us (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id HAA07352 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:41:23 -0700 Received: from issd1.bis.city (issd1.bis.city [10.80.1.16]) by linux1.bis.city (8.7.3/8.7.1) with SMTP id HAA10815 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:40:22 -0700 Received: from Portland-Message_Server by issd1.bis.city with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:41:28 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 07:47:28 -0700 From: Curt Nichols To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ashcreek@dreamscape.com Subject: GBlist: interior bill (Who says one vote doesn't count?) -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3968 Chuck, etc__ I was out of the loop for a few days last week (enjoying the wild country of Eastern Oregon). Upon my return I find an announcement that the Fox-Skaggs ammendment was defeated by a 212-213 vote. Who says one vote doesn't count? If we could have just changed one more representatives mind.... Curt Curt Nichols Portland Energy Office ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 27 11:05:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14346 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 11:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15533; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:51:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:46:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14828 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:45:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14820 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:45:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DJ6ZC5DY; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:54:44 EDT To: dmelchert@earthlink.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:31:39 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Cable Borer Message-ID: <19980727.110140.6542.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199807241608.JAA04568@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35B972C2.5F36@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-9 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3969 Seth et al, While the wine vat redwood may not be great for exterior usage it is fine for interior usage. I currently have two lovely end table made of it and they look great. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 27 12:24:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17572 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:24:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21230; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:04:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20449 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:04:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20435 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:04:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.162.253.77] (d58.best1.net [205.162.253.78]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA07641 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:13:53 -0700 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:16:19 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: GBlist: ED&C Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3970 I will be talking with John Sailer, Publisher and Editor of Env Des and Const this pm at 4:15 pacific time, for a radio show that will be rebroadcast on Sunday 8/2. Anyone got specific questions they would like to hear answered? ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 27 12:25:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17607 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:25:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21355; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:11:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:05:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20638 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20633 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:05:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.162.253.77] (d58.best1.net [205.162.253.78]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA07682 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:15:17 -0700 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:17:43 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: GBlist: ED&C Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3971 I will be talking with John Sailer, Publisher and Editor of Env Des and Const this pm at 4:15 pacific time, for a radio show that will be rebroadcast on Sunday 8/2. Anyone got specific questions they would like to hear answered? ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 27 12:49:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA18366 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:49:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22913; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:34:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:29:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22306 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:29:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22297 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 12:29:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust64.tnt11.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.31.64]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17695; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35BCACD2.76CA@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 09:37:38 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, "Beverly A. Weiter" Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Cable Borer References: <199807241608.JAA04568@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> <35B972C2.5F36@earthlink.net> <19980727.110140.6542.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3972 Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > > Seth et al, > > While the wine vat redwood may not be great for exterior usage it is fine > for interior usage. I currently have two lovely end table made of it and > they look great. > I should have been more precise: I wouldn't use them in a house ON THE WEST COAST...LCB's natural range is there; Florida is probably very safe. seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 27 13:40:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA21362 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:40:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26046; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:26:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:21:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25679 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:21:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25675 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 13:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.162.253.77] (d64.best1.net [205.162.253.84]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA09339; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:30:35 -0700 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 10:33:02 -0700 To: Pbsustain@aol.com From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: ED&C Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, rdettmer@webxs.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3973 >Although clients and architects are increasingly interested in green building >materials, general contractors and their subs are not as interested. After >all, they have existing relationships with suppliers and are resistant to >change. What steps must be taken in the construction community to effect long >lasting change? > >What will it take for contractors and developers to utilize green building >products? This issue, of slow, glacially slow, change in the design and const biz has been a topic of converstaion on the show in the past; I will bring this up this afternoon, but this will be the main topic of an upcoming show with the director of a new fed initiative PATH ( Partnership for Advancing Technology in Housing) >What differences are there between the residential and commercial construction >trades? How can green building materials penetrate these markets? ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jul 27 22:34:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA08862 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:34:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA23236; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:16:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA22961 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:15:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA22957 for ; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 22:15:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust129.tnt7.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.20.129]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA17698; Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:25:28 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35BD3661.3960@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 19:24:33 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Michelle Randall Subject: Re: GBlist: Lead Cable Borer References: <199807272321.QAA01346@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3974 Michelle Randall wrote: > One thing I'm left uncertain of in your response is whether > these critters are especially attracted to all reclaimed redwood or just > tank stock. It's the the wine-soaked redwood, NOT generic re-used redwood! I understand that the way wineries deal with these beetles is with a Sulphur treatment...I'm not sure exactly what. But I understand that whatever it is, it is not acceptable for houses. Dr Lewis took a few of the 2x10 fascia boards we had pulled off the house and put them in a "cage" - a space enclosed with a fine mesh but open to the air. In May and early June he found dozens of LCB's crawling over the mesh trying to get in - presumably females thinking they'd found the perfect nurseries for their future broods. I think that non-wine-vat-redwood is an excellent approach to meeting some of the current demand for decay-resistant and beautiful wood needs. It won't last forever, tho - there is only a limit supply of that as well. seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 28 09:07:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA24091 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 09:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10247; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:52:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:47:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09854 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:47:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09847 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 08:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000006759 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 07:53:51 -0500 Date: Tue, 28 Jul 98 08:04:57 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Non ferrous reinforcement To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5352567.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3975 Pliny has used bamboo as reinforcement in a couple of projects back in the late 70's/early 80's. To our knowledge, the slabs have performed well. It requires harvesting the bamboo at a particular time in the growing cycle, and soaking the bamboo in a solution to prevent reaction with the concrete. That's all I recall, and maybe Pliny will be available to add some more info by end of week. G. Vittori -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 28 15:46:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA07133 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:46:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03369; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:26:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA02867 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA02846 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 15:25:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id OAA0000015398; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:35:16 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980728193755.006a4d40@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 14:37:55 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: wood burning furnaces Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3976 Hello Listers, Has anyone in this group had experience with wood burning furnaces, those with a gas back up system and capable of heating water for a radiant floor? Or, if not experience, then if you know of such furnaces, I would appreciate hearing about these. thanks Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jul 28 20:56:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA18831 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:56:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18894; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:37:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA18458 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:37:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18454 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:37:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id UAA02118 for ; Tue, 28 Jul 1998 20:47:16 -0400 Message-id: <4081921@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 28 Jul 98 20:47:30 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: wood burning furnaces To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3977 Best wood combo boiler I know of is the Tarm - a gasifier, so clean-burning and efficient. 800-782-9927 Tarm USA (Lyme, NH) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 29 02:51:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA27308 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:51:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA29713; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:37:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:33:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA29508 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:33:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA29504 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:33:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Strawnet@aol.com Received: from Strawnet@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1VSOa19315 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:42:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <173484c5.35bec441@aol.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 02:42:08 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #261 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3978 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Non ferrous reinforcement >Pliny has used bamboo as reinforcement in a couple of projects back in the >late 70's/early 80's. To our knowledge, the slabs have performed well. It >requires harvesting the bamboo at a particular time in the growing cycle, and >soaking the bamboo in a solution to prevent reaction with the concrete. >That's all I recall, and maybe Pliny will be available to add some more info >by end of week. G. Vittori I have some material from India about bamboo as a concrete reinforcing material and will try to dig it out. One thing I do recall is that they recommended splitting the culms before using it, so it won't split in the concrete and cause cracking. On a different non ferrous reinforcement material, I remember viewing a video a couple of years ago on a foam, steel and concrete building system developed to be used in places like Mexico. Though I wasn't all that impressed with the system from a resource-efficiency or appropriate resource usage standpoint, they were using a knotted kevlar rope, stretched tight before the pour, as the tensile reinforcement for the concrete bond beam at the top of the walls. It made me think about the many possibilities for tensile reinforcement. Of course whatever is used still must be able to stand up to the caustic environment that it will be in over time in concrete. David Eisenberg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 29 08:21:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA04157 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:21:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA05752; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:02:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA05478 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:02:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA05474 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:02:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA06064 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 08:11:49 -0400 Message-id: <4085666@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 29 Jul 98 08:12:04 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #261 To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id IAA05475 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3979 --- You wrote: Of course whatever is used still must be able to stand up to the caustic environment that it will be in over time in concrete. --- end of quote --- Not to mention the occasionally caustic environment that may be encountered on the GB List! After that city/country series, I'm going to move to the suburbs. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 29 13:16:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA13802 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19177; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:02:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:57:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18866 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:57:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18859 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 12:57:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.162.253.55] (d77.best1.net [205.162.253.97]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA20221 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:07:05 -0700 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:09:34 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: GBlist: Hotels Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3980 I'm doing some research on economic benefits of environmental programs in the hospitality industry. Benefits can be either through reduced costs, both upfront and operational, and through increased sales by niche marketing. I am aware of the eco-resorts (Maho Bay etc), but these are unique situations; what I'm looking for are data and case studies of yer basic Hyatts etc that may be doing something different. Anyone got a direction to point me in for info? ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 29 13:58:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15090 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:58:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20988; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:43:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:40:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA20664 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:39:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.gis.net (home.gis.net [208.218.130.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA20659 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:39:45 -0400 (EDT) From: redelson@gis.net Received: from [208.239.5.191] (host50.208-239-7.gis.net [208.239.7.50]) by home.gis.net (8.8.8/8.8.8+djf) with ESMTP id NAA29567 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:47:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:47:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: redelson@208.218.130.20 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: natural wood finishes available? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3981 hi folks, i am new to this list (about 10 minutes new), and am sooo grateful to find that you exist! Here is a question i am hoping someone may help me with: i too have chem sensitivities and need to put some kind of finish to use on a new door (interior), newly sanded kitchen table, and other misc things in the next 24-48 hours or so while my mom is here visiting and can do the work for her near bedridden daughter (me!). We had bought tung oil, figuring it was cool, but well, i just did a search on the web and found you all!! (yippee!) and got the info that tung oil was bad for folks like me. so will WALNUT OIL do the trick for the door and kitchen table? will it change the color? (hope so!). Or does anyone have any other suggestions. do i need to do anything more than just buy regular ol' walnut oil in the local health food store? looking for any suggestions ASAP. warmly rebecca (redelson@gis.net) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 29 14:04:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA15580 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:04:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21534; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:46:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21132 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21128 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:46:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1DJRa17154 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <16d1fa0d.35bf6209@aol.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:20 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: ED&C Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3982 In a message dated 7/28/98 2:14:00 AM, you wrote: >>Although clients and architects are increasingly interested in green building >>materials, general contractors and their subs are not as interested. After >>all, they have existing relationships with suppliers and are resistant to >>change. I, of course, resent these remarks. (or is it resemble these remarks?) I have advocated thoughtful and reasonable change in this direction for the last twenty years as a contractor. My subs are of like mind as are the designers and some clients. Actually precious few clients. It is a hard sell suggesting that the value of an air tight, super insulated house with a HRV is worth the extra pittance that will have to be borrowed. The banks are only slowly seeing the value of loaning more money for a house with seriously reduced energy costs. Are people beating down my door to have a house that has heating costs of $300 a year (7000 degree days, 1750 sf.)? Nope. The resale value is not any different and consequently clients want MORE SQUARE FEET, not better square feet. Don't forget, the energy crisis is over and we won. For now. I can get all the materials I need to build a great house, including triple glazed Loewen windows, RMax, net & blow cellulose, etc, etc, all off the shelf at the local yards and local subs. I just can't convince the clients of the added value, and I probably won't until gas prices go up to two or three bucks a gallon. Next year? Stay tuned. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Associates, Contractors Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 29 14:07:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA15643 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:07:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21919; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:49:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21397 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:49:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eshu.request.net (eshu.request.net [207.48.132.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21391 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:49:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from munin.request.net ([208.236.140.172]) by eshu.request.net with ESMTP id <4415-3580>; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:58:25 -0400 Received: from hysave.com ([206.29.174.80]) by munin.request.net with ESMTP id <14158571-11828>; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:58:12 -0400 Message-ID: <35BF629B.38E39795@hysave.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 10:57:47 -0700 From: Russ Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve McGrath CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Hotels References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3983 Hello Steve, We have done some work with hotels that were looking to improve their guests comfort and at reducing the amount of electric power used by the facility. Both of the above objectives were met using technologies for improving the efficiency of their air conditioning systems. You may review results from two of these applications by visiting http://www.hysave.com/nikko.html and http://www.hysave.com/laconcha.html If you would like to have additional information regarding these applications or the technologies used, I would be happy to provide it to you. Regards, Russ Smith DTE Energy Technologies Hy-Save Office Steve McGrath wrote: > I'm doing some research on economic benefits of environmental programs in > the hospitality industry. Benefits can be either through reduced costs, > both upfront and operational, and through increased sales by niche > marketing. I am aware of the eco-resorts (Maho Bay etc), but these are > unique situations; what I'm looking for are data and case studies of yer > basic Hyatts etc that may be doing something different. Anyone got a > direction to point me in for info? > > ______________ > Steve McGrath > McGrath Associates > Build America Radio News Magazine > http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 29 14:09:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA15678 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:09:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22069; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:54:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:51:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21623 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:50:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21617 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:50:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DKCGHTYG; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:55:39 EDT To: smcgrath@buildamerica.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 13:54:51 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Hotels Message-ID: <19980729.135453.6566.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-8 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3984 Steve, You might want to try the Green Hotel Association, PO Box 420212, Houston, TX 77242, (713-789-8889) www.greenhotels.com. They can probably be of some help. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 29 14:20:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16011 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22678; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:00:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22356 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22351 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:00:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DKCG9XCN; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:08:49 EDT To: redelson@gis.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:08:10 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: natural wood finishes available? Message-ID: <19980729.140812.6566.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,6-10 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3985 Hi, One suggestion - natural beeswax. Also call (403)228-5193 to see if Valhalla Wood Preservatives are available in your area or check local paint stores to see if any carry OS/Color products or call 800-344-9663 for more info on product. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 29 14:40:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16558 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24188; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:25:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:21:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23788 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:21:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23784 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay1.mnsinc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA10143 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:31:16 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:28:23 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Hotels Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3986 980729 Maho had only cold showers in 1989 when Anne & I were there. Otherwise I would gladly go back--very beautiful although a bit flower-child cultured for my taste. Many of the Carribean resorts are greener than the mainland ones by necessity (water shortages, expensive energy, etc). Caneel Bay, down the road from Maho Bay on unbelievably lovely US Virgin St John, founded many years ago by Laurence Rockefeller, still has no AC in their $400-700 per night digs. Sister resort Little Dix Bay in the Brit Virgins does have a few AC'd rooms, but they are even more outlandishly priced. It surprises me that the (frequently partially naked) Euros who frequent Little Dix more than Caneel, would even care about AC. Guess the colder climate they come from is the reason, huh? As a working member of the hosp industry (restaurant owner) I can tell you the we would embrace anything that, 1, will save energy, about our number one cost after labor & food, and 2, can be understood clearly as a benefit. I do not know the figures but would be willing to bet that hospitality is a MAJOR energy consumer in the scheme of business things. But that is why you are doing this, right? So often, good ideas die because the benefits are promised rather than proven. I would contact the National Restaurant Association, and its hotel/motel counterpart. Some of the chains are no doubt doing some things they might share with you. A letter to one or more major publications, such as Nation's Restaurant News, a weekly, might gin up some interest. The hotel/restaurant management programs at various univs, such as my alma mater Va Tech, would also be prime territory for the latest & greatest. See the www sites. Culinary Institute of America, Johnson & Wales Univ are more vocational in nature, but worth contacting. Again, the lodging/resort equivalents should also be on your list. I would like to learn more about what you come up with and will help you any way I can. jh ----------------- >I'm doing some research on economic benefits of environmental programs in >the hospitality industry. Benefits can be either through reduced costs, >both upfront and operational, and through increased sales by niche >marketing. I am aware of the eco-resorts (Maho Bay etc), but these are >unique situations; what I'm looking for are data and case studies of yer >basic Hyatts etc that may be doing something different. Anyone got a >direction to point me in for info? >Steve McGrath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 29 15:24:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17841 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:24:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26820; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:06:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26451 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:05:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-gw.BayNetworks.COM (ns5.baynetworks.com [194.133.90.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26446 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (occhio.BayNetworks.COM [194.133.90.100]) by smtp-gw.BayNetworks.COM (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23949 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:14:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from lobster1.corpeast.Baynetworks.com (ns2.corpeast.baynetworks.com [192.32.72.17]) by mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA00651 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:14:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from bl-mail1.corpeast.BayNetworks.com (bl-mail1-nf0) by lobster1.corpeast.Baynetworks.com (4.1/BNET-97/04/29-S) id AA17945; Wed, 29 Jul 98 15:14:55 EDT for greenbuilding@crest.org Received: from odin ([141.251.81.26]) by bl-mail1.corpeast.BayNetworks.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0529 ID# 0-13458) with SMTP id AAA28390 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:14:49 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980729151315.009b3aa0@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: rwarner@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 15:13:17 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Regan_Warner@BayNetworks.COM (Regan Warner) Subject: GBlist: Some questions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3987 Fabulous information source this group, ben lurkin' for a while, and finally= bought a house...hooray (tried to build one, but the bank's first question= was "do you have a house?" "um...no, that's why we want to build one" "oh,= you want a builders loan then...right?" "sure" "well just bend over the= counter there and we'll extract an interest based on a multiple of the= number from this here whip required on your hide, or would you prefer a= mortgage at half the rate?" snark). It's a 125 year old cedar log home= (met the original families niece who knew the age) but has been upgraded= electrically and plumbing wise. Which leads to the questions: 1) It has a cistern in the basement..how the hell do I get water into and= out of the thing....right now it's full of detrius from the furnace= (filters etc) but the inspector said it had been reparged recently (with 8= years) and is ready to go. Where could I get information on it....really= want to use it and cut down on the well draw for the garden (and can I use= it for laundry?) 2) The kitchen was upgraded to 80's standards by a tall person (and= therefore my wife hates it....by no means a midget, but everything is= really tall as in 4 foot counters) and I would like to, if not restore it,= at least have it resemble the period in which it was built....same= question...where do I get information? Couple of points to add (as opposed to always asking questions and never= answering) We used milk paint to repaint, and ....man, no head ache, I'm not= oversensitive to chemicals, but being able to sleep in the same room just= painted within 4 hours is just great. For those of us north of the border= (and maybe south) the best deal on milk paint is Lee Valley Tools - $15.00= CDN (I think that's about $1.65 US right now). And to the guy who recommended the Frigidaire Front loader in some= discussion months ago...thanks. Got one and love it (only it scares the= hell out of the dogs on fast spin). Once again for those of the frozen= chosen ....if you buy a front loader from Sears (no GST deal last= month...and a rebate!) make sure the sales books service and delivery the= same day ("that's one of them there front loaders..init?" "Well, sure looks= like it" "We don't set em up...you'll have to call service...everyone knows= we don't set the buggers up, why don't they tell the customer"..."were you= aware delivery doesn't set them up" "no, they're supposed to".....no desire= to pursue it, and too many shades of Brazil) Thanks Sl=E0inte=20 Regan Warner BA GIS, CD Hermitage Systems=20 "Huers of Data, Drawers of Maps" loc:45=B025'15"N 75=B042'30"W ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 29 17:36:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA22213 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:36:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03595; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:17:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA03236 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:17:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo30.mx.aol.com (imo30.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.74]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03231 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:17:40 -0400 (EDT) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo30.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1IWOa26166 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <657efb0c.35bf938c@aol.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 17:26:26 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: ED&C Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3988 In a message dated 98-07-29 13:58:06 EDT, Caaradrbl@aol.com writes: << Are people beating down my door to have a house that has heating costs of $300 a year (7000 degree days, 1750 sf.)? Nope. The resale value is not any different and consequently clients want MORE SQUARE FEET, not better square feet. >> one of the problems with this is the real estate appraiser (of which I am one) --- most people need mortgages, banks require appraiseals -- I am the only appraiser I know of in south central Pennsylvania that actually has building experience and is "enlightened" - the average appraiser around here hasn't got a clue about much more than crown moldings and square footage and how much brick and what kind of kitchen cabinets --- of course most of the realtors selling the houses don't either - I get called for most of the odd ball (translate different, energy efficient, earth bermed etc etc) houses around here. Am getting ready to start on a small development of energy efficient smaller houses and scared to death about the appraisals since I won't be able to do them ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 29 20:47:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA27546 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:47:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA10962; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:32:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:29:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10484 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:28:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10476 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:28:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA11678 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:38:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esy14.vineyard.net(206.166.158.144) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma011669; Wed Jul 29 20:38:25 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4085666@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:43:37 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #261 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3989 Marc Rosenbaum wrote: >Not to mention the occasionally caustic environment that may be >encountered on the GB List! After that >city/country series, I'm going to >move to the suburbs. Hey Marc - I know a nice sprawling split level ranch at the end of a cul-de-sac with 6 bedrooms right near the Interstate that I think will be perfect for you and Kate. Contact Century 21. Asphalt siding in a used brick pattern. Lotsa vinyl trim, piss yellow. Minty 1/2 acre lawn, well fertilized and irrigated. You c'n see the 7th fairway of Old Farm Links from the picture window in the front room. God's country. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jul 29 22:24:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA29745 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14407; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:09:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:06:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA14148 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:05:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA14144 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:05:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust6.tnt11.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.134.6]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA09440; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 19:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807300215.TAA09440@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Sender: wliebold@mail.earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:16:40 -0400 To: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Warren Liebold Subject: Re: GBlist: Hotels In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3990 EPA's WAVE Program is specifically targeted at water efficiency in hotels. Check the "Links" section at http://www.waterwiser.org At 10:09 AM 7/29/98 -0700, Steve McGrath wrote: I'm doing some research on economic benefits of environmental programs in the hospitality industry. Benefits can be either through reduced costs, both upfront and operational, and through increased sales by niche marketing. I am aware of the eco-resorts (Maho Bay etc), but these are unique situations; what I'm looking for are data and case studies of yer basic Hyatts etc that may be doing something different. Anyone got a direction to point me in for info? ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ Warren Liebold wliebold@earthlink.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 30 00:20:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA02655 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA18459; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:03:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:59:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18203 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:59:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18195 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 23:59:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (st-ppp16.hevanet.com [198.5.254.190]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16403 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35BFF116.15B4C28B@hevanet.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:05:53 -0700 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Appraisals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3991 Hi, All-- Appraisers all pride themselves on their professionalism and their methods of rational analysis. One can take advantage of that by asking them or the lender who retains them to include energy features in the appraisal. You can even give them a list. Once they know about the energy features, they have to include them in the description of the house on the appraisal form. (If they leave out something that is actually in the house the appraisal is incomplete.) Then they have the problem of how to determine value since they probably won't find any comparable sales. Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae and HUD and FHA and VA and FMHA--all--authorize appraisers to use Form 70A to figure out what the energy features are worth based on estimated savings. The appraiser can do it or ask a qualified energy professional to help make the estimate. Here in the Northwest we have used a computer program called WATTSUN to estimate savings. There's no reason, other than they haven't seen it before, for appraisers not to use the form, as it is a standard practice item. If the underwriter requests that the appraisal include the energy features they should be there. The appraiser can't just say "I don't know what the energy features are worth". It's not an acceptable answer. Once the appraisal is complete the underwriter has a basis for increasing the loan. Best, Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 30 00:43:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA03349 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA19248; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:28:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:25:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19027 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.sprynet.com (m3.sprynet.com [165.121.2.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19022 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 00:25:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.175.231.56 (sf-dnpqm-056.compuserve.net [206.175.231.56]) by m3.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA15879 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35BFF9E5.7E@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:44:04 -0700 From: Art Ludwig Reply-To: odesign@sprynet.com Organization: Oasis Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Greywater information Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3992 I'd like to add to the greywater topic from the "discussion group highlights" archieve. I tried to send this message before but I don't think it made it...apologies if it did make it the first time. ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' Jason Dries-Daffner's requested info for books on retrofitting existing plumbing systems to use greywater. I've written a book called "Create an Oasis with Greywater" which describes how to choose, build and use 20 types of residential retrofit greywater systems. It includes sections on greywater plumbing principles and figures showing how to tie in to existing plumbing so that proper venting is maintained, health considerations, characteristics of greywater sources, health considerations, etc. Amos Satterly asks about greywater in CT in the winter, a greywatered solar greenhouse is the most elegant solution, when appropriate. There is a section in Create an Oasis on cold climates and I have a nifty new design which I'm hoping someone will try out before I write it up... A few people mentioned concern about soaps. I developed a line of cleaners which biodegrade entirely into plant food, which I subsequently manufactured and sold for several years before selling this part of my business. Cleaners are a complicated issue, almost irrelevant in some contexts and the design limiting factor in others. A table in create an oasis showing plant and soil biocompatibility with four primary types of disposal environment gives a good sense of the issues. Marc Rosenbaum mentioned plumbing houses with seperate black and greywater for the future. This is an EXCELLENT idea. One consideration: I advocate pumpless systems for residential applications whenever possible. To enable gw to make it to plants near the house by gravity, fall is often the limiting nutrient, and often heroic measures are required to conserve fall in the seperate plumbing. It's hard to get religion about conserving fall until you have to replumb the waste line from an entire house to gain a few inches of fall. Others mentioned legality and the new California code. I've written another book, the "Builder's Greywater Guide," a supplement to create an Oasis which explains how to do greywater systems in a new construction or remodeling context, and includes supporting references and details in several appendices. One appendix is the entire text of the California greywater code, with annotations from us which explain the practical implications of the many onerous requirements of this code, and possible cracks to slip sensible designs through. Following the code text are two pages of specific suggestions to improve it (viewable at ), which I hope find wide distribution as the CA code is being emulated worldwide...a mixed blessing, to be sure. People mentioned various greywater references. I try to maintain a complete, current list of greywater and composting toilet references and suppliers on our website, as part of the updates to our books which we post each time they are revised, which is often (the last revisions were in fall 1997). Please e mail me if you run into anything useful which is not on the web list. Be wary of widely distributed misconceptions about greywater...I regularly find designs from the 1970's which have been discredited for years or decades re-presented as cutting edge on the web; see I hope you all find this material useful in your work. Art -- ************* Art Ludwig Oasis Design Ecological Design publishing & consulting E mail: Web site: 5 San Marcos Trout Club, Santa Barbara, CA 93105-9726, Fax: 805 967-3229 Phone: 967-9956 We're back from Central America and I'll be in the office daily except July 30th-Aug 17th, when I'll be on a job in Mexico. I'll still be reachable by e mail there at great expense over a cell phone at 2400 baud. Please do not distribute our e mail address to the general public. ************* ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 30 01:44:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA04736 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:44:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA20943; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:29:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:26:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA20716 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA20712 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:26:01 -0400 (EDT) From: JNH2@aol.com Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id GOBa027851; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:34:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <65810892.35c005de@aol.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 01:34:20 EDT To: redelson@gis.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: natural wood finishes available? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3993 Rebecca, It really sort of depends on what you are trying to do with the finish and how you expect it to perform. If what you are after is a "finished" look and a somewhat temporary protection of the wood surface, then just about any organic based oil will do (Olive oil, Walnut, etc.) The drawback will be that the door and table and other surfaces may bleed a bit - leave oil marks on stuff for a while - and the oil will eventually oxidize/evaporate. The result will be that you will have to repeat the treatment every few months to keep the particular wood pieces protected from changes in mositure in the air (that's generally the base-line reason for wood finishes) I would assume you have already attempted to be around polyurethane finishes and had unplesant reactions to it. That would be too bad, since it is one of the least off-gassing and most stable of the available finishes and it's quite durable as well. Furniture polish, or other wax based stuff may very well give you bad reactions too, (it's often petroleum or mineral based) although I have heard tell that bee's wax tends to be quite neutral to folks with chem sensitivities, but it is rather troublesome to apply (melt first, brush or spread on, scrap surplus off, rub smooth, repeat) and it must be re-applied about once a year under moderate use. (Nice color though, soft yellowish honey-type color - no joke!) One thing to keep in mind - to avoid warping, like so bad that pop cans will tip over, be sure to apply the oil finish to ALL exposed surfaces, bottom, back, & sides - otherwise the wood surfaces will absorb/lose moisture unevenly and end up making really interesting(?) shapes. Good luck and do let us know what you decide on, and how well it works, on the door & table etc. as well as your reaction to it. have a groovy day! Jim Holdcraft ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 30 06:13:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA10896 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:13:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA27192; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 05:57:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Jul 1998 05:51:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA26939 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 05:51:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA26935 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 05:51:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA20851 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:00:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esy4.vineyard.net(206.166.158.134) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma020845; Thu Jul 30 06:00:46 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199807300215.TAA09440@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:03:38 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: Hotels Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3994 Steve McGrath wrote: >I'm doing some research on economic benefits of environmental programs in >the hospitality industry. Benefits can be either through reduced costs, >both upfront and operational, and through increased sales by niche >marketing. I am aware of the eco-resorts (Maho Bay etc), but these are >unique situations; what I'm looking for are data and case studies of yer >basic Hyatts etc that may be doing something different. Anyone got a >direction to point me in for info? Steve - Tedd Saunders used to be part owner of the Park Plaza Hotel in Boston with other members of his family. They did a major energy/resource/recycling retrofit to the Park Plaza as a model, and Tedd went on to form a company called Eco-Logical Solutions specifically to do environmental programs for the hospitality industry. It would be worthwhile to contact him at (617) 457 - 2411. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 30 07:16:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA12153 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:16:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA28471; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:02:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:54:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA28196 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA28192 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id HAA10131 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:03:38 -0400 Message-id: <4097316@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 30 Jul 98 07:03:54 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #261 To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3995 Do I get a Toyota Landcruiser or Ford Explorer in the bargain? I think I'll be laughed right out of the neighborhood with my Civic VX. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 30 10:22:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17089 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03544; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:07:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:00:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03108 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:00:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [149.174.217.136]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03102 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:00:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.12) id KAA05694; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:09:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:09:35 -0400 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: GBlist: Hotels To: Steve McGrath Cc: "[unknown]" Message-ID: <199807301009_MC2-54AA-52A8@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAA03103 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3996 Steve, As part of siting the Sustainable Steel Conference, Steven Winter Associates and I developed a list of environmental characteristics for consideration by meeting planners. We supplied a questionaire to the hotels under consideration and did a site visit. Several key factors arose: 1. Did they take the questionaire and the site visit seriously? (Information is easier to change than attitude!) 2. Did they track usage over time? (kW, kWh, gas, water, etc.) (Feedback is essential for improvement.) 3. Did they promote conservation to their guests? (Do they want to position themselves as conserving or consuming?) The site visit was useful in part because it gave some ammunition to staff that were promoting conservation projects. Good luck, Greg Gregory Thomas 121 Rachel Carson Way Ithaca, NY 14850 g_thomas@compuserve.com 607-277-6240 607-277-6224 fax ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 30 11:43:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA19900 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:43:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08506; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:28:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:23:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07894 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:23:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07882 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.162.253.90] (d70.best1.net [205.162.253.90]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA13770 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:33:12 -0700 X-Sender: smcgrath@best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:35:43 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: GBlist: Hotels Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3997 Again, I am humbled by the willngness of the members of this list to share of their time and expertsie. I received many leads on my hotel question. If this all gets consolidated into a paper, as i am intending, then I will be sure to make the results available to the list. Thanks again ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 30 12:07:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20856 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10490; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:52:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:49:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09922 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ibmmail.COM (ibmmail.com [204.146.168.193]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09914 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:49:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim_Hartzfeld@mail.ifsia.com Received: by ibmmail.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via spool with SMTP id 5251 ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:58:37 EDT Received: from mail.ifsia.com [204.238.192.103] by imxgate.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:57:47 EDT Received: by mail.ifsia.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.2 (600.1 3-26-1998)) id 85256651.00580067 ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:01:12 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: INTERFACE To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <85256651.00574CC9.00@mail.ifsia.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:01:09 -0400 Subject: GBlist: Hotels - Meeting Planner Guides Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3998 I have been following the Hotel strand with interest. I am specifically interested in any guidelines that anyone has written in planning green conferences. I am interested in creating a product for our meeting planners that can cover hotel accommodations and housekeeping, food and beverage, recycling, sensitivity and education of local culture and species, metrics, give-aways, conference materials, etc. I have seen some guidelines on the web, but am interested in the ideas of others. To keep the clutter down on the list, you can reply directly to me at: jim_hartzfeld@mail.ifsia.com Thanks in advance for your help. Jim Hartzfeld Senior Vice President Interface Research Corporation ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 30 13:07:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA24738 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13654; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:52:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:48:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13331 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13327 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:48:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id LAA0000029800; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:57:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980730170013.006bc488@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:00:13 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Info re: greywater Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 3999 Regarding good information about greywater systems (there are a LOT of alternatives) I would like to ditto Art Ludwig's recent posting where he pushes his own publication, 'Creating an Oasis with Greywater'. I looked at a lot of publications and found his the most useful. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 30 13:10:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA24858 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:10:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13979; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:55:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:52:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13625 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13621 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:52:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1HVHa27851 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:01:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <36b6b0a5.35c0a6d8@aol.com> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:01:11 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Hotels - Meeting Planner Guides Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4000 A couple more sources of info here. The Colorado Hotel & Motel Association produced a green guide a few years ago and the American Hotel & Motel Assoc was supposed to develop a comprehensive guide. The National Recycling Coalition's former conference director wrote a couple of good articles on green meeting planning and I believe they have a checklist they use with hotels and conference halls. 703-683-9025 Phil Bailey SustainAbility Fredericksburg, Va. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 30 13:52:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA06463 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16451; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:37:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:33:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA16085 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:33:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16081 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:33:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Alisa (usr0a92.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.92]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA02043; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:42:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980730134411.006d6990@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:44:11 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Danny Sagan Subject: GBlist: Thermostat Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4001 Hello There- and let me begin by saying how much I think this listserve is a great idea! My Question: I have a client who wishes to control his thermostat in his house over the telephone- Does anyone know of any systems that do this well and that don't cost an arm and a leg- Thanks Danny Sagan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 30 14:38:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA09037 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:38:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19363; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:23:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:19:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA18888 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:19:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18882 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:19:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay1.mnsinc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA22344 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:29:03 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980730134411.006d6990@sover.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:28:22 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Thermostat Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4002 980730 How about X-10 devices to do phone in control? I believe there are other ways as well. For the uninitiated, X-10 is a system of devices that do various things using signals sent via the electric system in your building, such as controlling lights, dimming, turning small appliances on & off, etc. It is not always 100% reliable and the electronics are most susceptible to lightning damage, but when it works, it is like the little girl with the curl in the middle of her forhead. And BTW, would someone advise me as to the best (cheapest) place to buy X-10 switches, etc, currently? The home automation www site seems pretty retail, good source Radio Shark has no sales on right now & my lilypad house is n need. We also use them in our restaurant. You should hear the shrieks when someone turns off the lights on whomever is doing bathroom duty at night's end). Or just dims them romanticly. Oooooheeee! ;-> Thanks! jh --------- >My Question: I have a client who wishes to control his thermostat in his >house over the telephone- Does anyone know of any systems that do this well >and that don't cost an arm and a leg- Thanks >Danny Sagan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 30 15:19:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13983 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:19:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21779; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:05:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:01:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21459 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:01:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21451 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:01:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id MAA07176 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:10:53 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 30 Jul 1998 12:08:57 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: Re x-10 To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA21456 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4003 Home Automation Systems Ink has a website (smarthome.com). I'm not sure if they have their complete catalog on line, but you can probably order one. They have X-10 devices to cover everything from feeding the goldfish to flushing the toilet. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 30 16:20:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA22120 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25029; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:05:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:02:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24689 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:01:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24685 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:01:51 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DKE86UX3; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:45:03 EDT To: hardwick@ordinary.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:05:21 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Thermostat Message-ID: <19980730.150525.-250395.0.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.9 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-7,9-57 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4004 As a GB list participant I recommend the RCS TX15 Thermostat ($199) mated to a JDS TeleCommand 100 telephone transponder ($325). Let me know if you need programming examples or instructions. On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:28:22 -0400 "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" writes: >980730 > >How about X-10 devices to do phone in control? I believe there are >other >ways as well. > >For the uninitiated, X-10 is a system of devices that do various >things >using signals sent via the electric system in your building, such as >controlling lights, dimming, turning small appliances on & off, etc. >It is >not always 100% reliable and the electronics are most susceptible to >lightning damage, but when it works, it is like the little girl with >the >curl in the middle of her forhead. > >And BTW, would someone advise me as to the best (cheapest) place to >buy >X-10 switches, etc, currently? The home automation www site seems >pretty >retail, good source Radio Shark has no sales on right now & my lilypad >house is n need. > >We also use them in our restaurant. You should hear the shrieks when >someone turns off the lights on whomever is doing bathroom duty at >night's >end). Or just dims them romanticly. Oooooheeee! >;-> > >Thanks! >jh >--------- > >>My Question: I have a client who wishes to control his thermostat in >his >>house over the telephone- Does anyone know of any systems that do >this well >>and that don't cost an arm and a leg- Thanks >>Danny Sagan > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 30 17:53:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA00601 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:53:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00677; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:38:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:34:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA00233 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA00224 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:34:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Alisa (usr0a7.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.7]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA22229; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:43:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980730174516.006d8e34@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:45:16 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: Thermostat Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <19980730.150525.-250395.0.sbtauto@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4005 Thanks to everyone who responded to my questions about thermostats-Danny Sagan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jul 30 20:59:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA06323 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:59:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA10734; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:44:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:40:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10434 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:40:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.gis.net (home.gis.net [208.218.130.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10421 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:40:01 -0400 (EDT) From: redelson@gis.net Received: from [208.239.4.49] (host106.208-239-7.gis.net [208.239.7.106]) by home.gis.net (8.8.8/8.8.8+djf) with ESMTP id UAA01824 for ; Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:47:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:47:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: redelson@208.218.130.20 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: natural wood finish Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4006 what a great crew of generous folks this list is. thanks for all the suggestions i got off line. rebecca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 31 10:53:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28061 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03132; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:38:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:34:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02854 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:34:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02850 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:34:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DKG9733Q; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:41:40 EDT To: smcgrath@buildamerica.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:40:53 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Hotels Message-ID: <19980731.104055.6566.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-7,14-18 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4007 Steve, One final thought - try contacting the Intracontinental chain - they have tried to be very proactive in the environmental field and even have an annual competition for their hotels. A friend of mine worked on the recycling program for the Miami branch and they highly prized the honor when they won. As an aside, in your research look into the benefits of training programs for the cleaning and maintenance staffs who are often responsible for seeing whether some of the "green" changes are or are not successful. Here, we are working on a manual and training program to be used for just that purpose. Also note, as part of greening the White House they included such a program to ensure that things like compact flourescent lamping would not eventually be replaced with standard lamping. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jul 31 11:17:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28907 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:17:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04401; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:02:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:58:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04053 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:58:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04048 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:58:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust188.tnt1.clearwater.fl.gt.uu.net [208.255.243.188]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id KAA20121; Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:07:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35C1DE69.733A@gte.net> Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:10:34 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve McGrath CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Hotels References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4008 Steve, Canadian Pacific Hotels, headquartered in Montreal, has had a greening program in place for some eight years now. They own such beauties as Banff Springs. They published a book on their efforts that focused on water/energy/toxics/food service/grounds/employee training/using locally based green suppliers etc. Sorry I no longer have a name. Cindy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Aug 1 16:18:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA15615 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 16:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25035; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 16:03:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:58:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA24650 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:58:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24646 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 15:58:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000008415 for ; Sat, 01 Aug 1998 15:05:27 -0500 Date: Sat, 1 Aug 98 15:16:35 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: GBlist: Fwd: ESD and the Construction Industry To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5361297.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4009 Hi Folks, Hope someone here can help this fellow. Sounds like an interesting project. Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com ----- I am researching a dissertation for a Bachelor of Construction Management with a working title of 'Ecologically Sustainable Development and the Construction Industry', and your Internet page shows your close association with the subject wish to explore. The primary aim of this dissertation is to establish practical on site procedures to be implemented on site during the construction phase to reduce and minimise the ecological impact of building and development, on both the natural and urban environment. The dissertation will define the best practices in environmental management for a construction zone, where local action will contribute to sustainable development nationally and globally. I will examine community and patron demands and expectation for applying the principal of ESD to new developments, together with a summary of existing authority controls in place and an assessment the appropriateness of such requirements. It is aimed to do a case study of a company, project or site to critique the principles of ESD in action, on site strategies, procedures and methods. I intend to focus on site specific concerns, the strategies and procedures for: * site clearing and excavation. * stormwater run off pollution controls. * demolition material and construction waste management, including reuse and recycling. * construction techniques. * energy management. * material selection. * Noise controls. Here in Australia, the Sydney 2000 Olympics has been promoted as the Green Olympics and there are in place fundamental statements of intent, setting out the principals of ESD that are to be achieved. From the bid for the 2000 Olympics Sydney was promoting sustainable solutions in construction, transport and waste disposal. I am looking of overseas examples for benchmarking and comparison. Any material, documentation, information or contacts that you can provide would be appreciated, and will be used strictly for the purpose of study. I can provide a supporting letter from my University if required. The type of documents that I would like to obtain copies would include but not limited to: * Environmental Management Plans, * Project specific Construction Management documentation, manuals and procedures prepared in response to the requirements of the community and patron demands and expectations * Preliminaries for Tendering setting environmental requirements to be meet by contractors on site, * Contractors response to environmental standards required and documentation submitted to show the Contractor action plans for both tender and construction, * Induction guidelines for employees and contractors staff, introducing the expectations and commitment required in meeting the site environmental initiatives, * Procedure and protocols for auditing and measuring the success of the environmental site management practices. Ian Farrelly E-mail: farsan@illawarra.starway.net.au 3 Jardine Street, Bulli N.S.W. 2516 AUSTRALIA Hm Ph: 0011 612 4283 7004 Wk Ph: 0011 612 9956 2690 Fax: 0011 612 9959 3015 -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Aug 1 19:15:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA20350 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:15:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29529; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:00:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:56:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29133 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29129 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:56:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (st-ppp23.hevanet.com [198.5.254.197]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02152 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 16:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35C39E97.377F6B36@hevanet.com> Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 16:02:50 -0700 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com Organization: O'Brien & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Energy Efficiency and Appraisals Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4010 To know about as much as your local mortgage lender regarding the rules for lending extra $$$ on energy efficient homes, take a look at the lenders' handook at http://www.natresnet.org/LHandbook/LendrHndbk.htm Note especially that FHA does not require an appraisal of the energy measures, rather a showing that they are cost effective (NPV of savings is more than initial cost). Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Aug 1 19:22:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA20509 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:22:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29800; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:07:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:03:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA29587 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:03:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA29583 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:03:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Frugally4u@aol.com Received: from Frugally4u@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1HXVa11468 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:12:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:12:39 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Anyone build with stones? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 170 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4011 I'd love to hear about anyone who has/ or is building with stone. I was set on Fibrous Cement - made samples & I'm not sure it's a suitable material for my area. I live in Upstate NY. I've read Helen & Scott Nearing's books & love everything so far. My area has stone everywhere! There are stack walls everywhere you go - fields are full of small cobbles ---------- Some ideas would be very much appreciated! Pearl Sanborn http://members.aol.com/frugally4u ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Aug 1 22:26:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA24360 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 22:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA04274; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 22:11:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 1 Aug 1998 22:08:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA04029 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 22:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA04025 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 22:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.170] (ka3-173.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.173]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06305 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 22:17:58 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-Id: Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 22:13:43 -0400 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: WildFlower Lawn? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id WAA04026 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4012 Hallo. My wife and I are considering what seed to throw down on the leechfield when the fill is over the top of it. We both like the idea of wildflower lawn, for easy maintenance, mainly. But we'd like to restrict it to species native to our area (New Hampshire, on the border with Vermont). Reading the label on a seed can or bag, I have no clue which species are native, and which were imported, and when. Does anyone make a native mix for our area? Where might we look? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Aug 1 23:23:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA25639 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:23:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA05423; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:08:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:04:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA05190 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:04:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.gis.net (home.gis.net [208.218.130.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05186 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:04:44 -0400 (EDT) From: redelson@gis.net Received: from [208.239.6.6] (host6.208-239-6.gis.net [208.239.6.6]) by home.gis.net (8.8.8/8.8.8+djf) with ESMTP id XAA21514 for ; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 23:12:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: redelson@208.218.130.20 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: WildFlower Lawn? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4013 i'd love to see responses to this question as well (and in more or less the same area, MA) rebecca We both like the idea of wildflower >lawn, for easy maintenance, mainly. But we'd like to restrict it to >species native to our area (New Hampshire, on the border with Vermont). >Reading the label on a seed can or bag, I have no clue which species are >native, and which were imported, and when. > > Does anyone make a native mix for our area? Where might we look? > >-Speireag. ____________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 2 04:27:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA01896 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 04:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA09916; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 03:45:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Aug 1998 03:24:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA09540 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 03:23:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR03 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.159]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA09536 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 03:23:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default - 208.250.155.157 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 1 Aug 1998 22:53:12 -0700 From: "Patricia Meeks" To: "GBList" Subject: RE: GBlist: WildFlower Lawn? Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 22:51:55 -0700 Message-ID: <000601bdbdd9$a8038dc0$9d9bfad0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4014 Patricia Meeks pmeeks@msn.com -----Original Message----- From: Patricia Meeks [mailto:pmeeks@email.msn.com] Sent: Saturday, August 01, 1998 10:13 PM To: GBList Subject: RE: GBlist: WildFlower Lawn? There's a ton of info on the web about native plants. You can start your search for info at the locations I listed below. Also, there is a new magazine, "Native Plant Magazine" (1-888-WILD 949). I bought some excellent books on the subject for my region (Pacific Northwest) from doing a search at Amazon.com. If you live in a suburban setting, you may have difficulties with a wildflower lawn. My neighbors go ballistic when they see a another new native plant in my yard. Sadly, the majority of homeowners are so unknowledgeable about plants that they assume that anything that grows "naturally" (something that THEY haven't planted) or that they see in the wild, must be a weed. I have regular ongoing battles with a few of my neighbors over their use of toxins and excessive use of fertilizers that can migrate onto my property. They associate a green, sterile lawn with property values and good conservative law and order. Those are not easy outlooks to overcome. You'll find lots of easy, native, care-free alternatives to the hybrid lawn that will not annoy the neighbors once you find the right sources for your area. There are native plant organizations in every region of the country that are anxious to spread their knowledge and find new converts. Native Plant Organizations and Gardens with Displays of Regionally Native Plants http://www.wildflower.org/links.html Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center http://www.wildflower.org/ National Plant Data Center (USDA-NRCS Ecological Sciences Division http://plants.usda.gov/npdc/10links.html Patricia Meeks pmeeks@msn.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org [mailto:owner-greenbuilding@crest.org] On Behalf Of redelson@gis.net Sent: Saturday, August 01, 1998 8:12 PM To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: WildFlower Lawn? We both like the idea of wildflower >lawn, for easy maintenance, mainly. But we'd like to restrict it to >species native to our area (New Hampshire, on the border with Vermont). >Reading the label on a seed can or bag, I have no clue which species are >native, and which were imported, and when. > > Does anyone make a native mix for our area? Where might we look? > >-Speireag. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 2 06:32:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA04267 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 06:32:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA11061; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 05:51:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Aug 1998 05:25:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA10686 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 05:24:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coyote.accessnv.com (jap2be@coyote.accessnv.com [207.168.90.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA10678 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 05:22:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (jap2be@localhost) by coyote.accessnv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA05621; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 05:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 05:47:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Angel Cohen To: greenbuilding@crest.org, NAET-L@MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU Subject: GBlist: no-Tox Application (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY=part0_901433436_boundary Content-ID: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4015 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime@docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --part0_901433436_boundary Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-ID: <0_901433436@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Dear List Members: This may be off the subject a slight bit but due to the common ground of chemicals, allergies and environmental issues I feel its a relevant post. As some of you know I have been VERY vocal regarding IAQ, MCS and making everywhere accessible to those individuals with allergies etc. To that end I have done the following, I had orginally posted the entire application but didn't realize there was a list size maximum. If anyone is interested, please feel free to email either here or at the corporations email addy listed below. If there is anyone who even thinks I am exploting these people, I say this..I am chemcially injured from a Naturopathic Medical College in AZ, so I know first hand all the BARRIERS these people are up against. At least I can try and put some of them back to work. While protecting them and myself from further chemical assaults if unable to convey my chemical sensitivities to a medical professional in an emergency situation. I have had a very receptive response from some medical professionals stating they will be more aware to these individuals, especially the EMT's who said it will help identify those needing special care. whther they actually have alternatives on hand is another thing, I still have the battle of chemicals on their person (colognes etc). BUt one thing at a time. Forwarded message: After throughly researching EMS, Hospitals and medical facilities both here in Nevada, California, Texas, Arizona, Pennsylvania I have discovered that apparently there is no knowledge of how to treat a chemically sensitive patient who is uncommunicative. Although the medical field is CURRENTLY divided on this issue, it will be joined come September when David Satcher (surgeon general) releases his report on MCS. Finally it will be recognized as a TRUe illness! Due to the highly reactive nature to most common "chemicals" (isopropyl alcohol, plastic outgassing) that normal protocols will certainly exacerbate, I HAD to create the medical awareness jewelry line for us. As almost all members of the group are familiar with Medic AlertTM, they are not set up to deal with this emerging field. Nor can they recommend protocols for these patients in a hospital environment. So after 3months of red tape, state government crap regarding sales vs use tax, uncle sam and his sign your life away on this, finding jewelry that will not aggravate the majority of the group, I am attaching the application. **note** will forward as application is too large for this group. This is very similar to the way Medic Alert TM works except that its especially for us! Much more information on what we are on versus allopathic medicines, and I have a generic sheet that I am faxing when I get an inqury on some protocols to insititute to protect us, hopefully, they will have been instituted prior to any of us winding up in their facilities. We are currently working on getting the office in the United Kingdom up then we will expand to include Canada. As this is not strictly a USA problem. As we feel all people with MCS should not get sicker because they have this illness and most medical facilities aren't fully aware be it here or anywhere else in the world. The employees will be MCS victims as the majority stockholder is a victim also. This is set up so that a protion of each sale will be given to non profit groups trying to combat further assaults on all of us. I would sincerely appreciate any and all comments on it :) Angel De Fazio President/Co-incorporator No-Tox-Inc. POB 26174 Las Vegas, NV 89126-0174 Also, President of National Toxic Encephalopathy Foundation --part0_901433436_boundary-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 2 09:36:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07771 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 09:36:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12849; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 09:01:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Aug 1998 08:37:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12445 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 08:35:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12400 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 08:34:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on3-32.netcom.ca [207.181.90.160]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA06219; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 06:52:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199808021052.GAA06219@tor-smtp2.netcom.ca> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 05:51:58 -0400 To: Frugally4u@aol.com From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Anyone build with stones? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4016 For slipform stone construction check out: http://206.25.233.25/~barkeatr/slipformhome.htm At 07:12 PM 01/08/98 -0400, Pearl Sanborn wrote: >I'd love to hear about anyone who has/ or is building with stone. > (snip) >I've read Helen & Scott Nearing's books & love everything so far. > ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 2 16:07:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA16892 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20903; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 15:52:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Aug 1998 15:47:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20665 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 15:47:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.grove.ufl.edu (root@mail2.grove.ufl.edu [128.227.8.82]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA20661 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 15:47:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from banyan.grove.ufl.edu (root@grove.ufl.edu [128.227.8.15]) by mail2.grove.ufl.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6/1) with ESMTP id PAA28997 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 15:57:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from KibertG2000.cfaa.ufl.edu (p6226.cfaa.ufl.edu [10.5.6.226]) by banyan.grove.ufl.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6/1) with SMTP id PAA06662 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 15:57:30 -0400 (EDT) Comments: grove thinks this came from p6226.cfaa.ufl.edu [10.5.6.226] (hop 0) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980802155730.00e61c2c@grove.ufl.edu> X-Sender: minou@grove.ufl.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 15:57:30 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Brad Guy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4017 I am trying to find a commercially available "studsnuggler" thermal break product for light gauge steel stud construction, is there such a thing? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 2 17:59:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA19814 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:59:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA24514; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:44:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:41:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24272 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:41:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24265 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:41:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa5-p39.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.231]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA02464 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:50:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35C4DDB6.EFD7D064@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 17:44:22 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: References: <3.0.1.32.19980802155730.00e61c2c@grove.ufl.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4018 http://www.erols.com/usbt/ Brad Guy wrote: > > I am trying to find a commercially available "studsnuggler" thermal break > product for light gauge steel stud construction, is there such a thing? > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 2 18:08:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA19978 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:07:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA24942; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:53:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:49:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24651 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:49:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24646 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:49:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Alisa (usr0a17.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.17]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA07863; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:59:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980802180034.006d14a8@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:00:34 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Danny Sagan Subject: GBlist: Railroad Ties Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4019 Hey there- Does anyone know the environmental liabilities related to railroad ties that have been used for an existing retaining walls. Is this a case of Toxic waste that needs to be removed? More specifically if they are up hill from a stream are they in effect contaminating the stream. My client does not have a lot of money either. What to do? Danny Sagan- Randolph Ctr VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 2 18:14:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA20131 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25215; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:55:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA25019 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:55:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.cityweb.de (mail1.cityweb.de [193.189.224.217]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA25014 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 17:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cityweb.de (essn-m104-53.pool.cww.de [195.71.104.53]) by mail1.cityweb.de (8.9.1/8.9.1/powered by Telemedia) with ESMTP id AAA23100 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 00:05:28 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <35C44CC3.C2DD999A@cityweb.de> Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 12:25:59 +0100 From: Vern & Helga LeCount Reply-To: vernonlecount@cityweb.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: RE: Wildflower Lawn Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4020 For wildflower mixtures for the northern New England climate try: http://www.johnnyseeds.com/ There are in Albion Maine. Vernon LeCount Essen, Germany PS I enjoy the purple clover over my leech field. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 2 18:24:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA20348 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA25751; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:10:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:06:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA25455 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA25451 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:06:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Alisa (usr0a17.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.17]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA10767; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:16:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980802181734.006dc7e4@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:17:34 -0400 To: Speireag Alden , Green Building List From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: WildFlower Lawn? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4021 Hey There- Check out the Vermont Wild Flower Farm in Charlotte Vermont Their Telephone number is 802-425-3500 Danny Sagan, Randolpg Ctr , VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 2 21:36:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA25818 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:36:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA01015; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:21:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:17:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA00636 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:17:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR04 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.160]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA00630 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:16:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default - 208.250.155.146 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:26:08 -0700 From: "Patricia Meeks" To: "GBList" Subject: RE: GBlist: Railroad Ties Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 18:24:51 -0700 Message-ID: <000201bdbe7d$83a10800$929bfad0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980802180034.006d14a8@sover.net> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4022 I also have a retaining wall of logs soaked with creosote at a house we just purchased. I have thirty logs, 1.5- to 2.5-feet in diameter and two- to four-feet in length. I had some interest from a local government department in using them to block off four-wheeler access to sensitive areas, but I haven't heard back. I hope someone knows what can be done with them and if there are any liabilities. Patricia Meeks, Klickitat County, Washington pmeeks@msn.com Hey there- Does anyone know the environmental liabilities related to railroad ties that have been used for an existing retaining walls. Is this a case of Toxic waste that needs to be removed? More specifically if they are up hill from a stream are they in effect contaminating the stream. My client does not have a lot of money either. What to do? Danny Sagan- Randolph Ctr VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 2 22:36:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA27192 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA02748; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:18:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA02446 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:18:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02441 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:18:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.201.2] (usr2a91.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.91]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA04222; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:28:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980802155730.00e61c2c@grove.ufl.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:30:17 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Brad Guy From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: thermal break for light gauge steel studs Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id WAA02442 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4023 The only such product I'm aware of is in our Environmental Building News Product Catalog. It's the Snap-Cap Insulated Framing System. US Building Technology, Inc. 701-B Waverly Street Framingham, MA 01702 Telephone: 508-424-0055 Fax: 508-424-0050 Weblink: www.usbt.com Contact: Joseph Charlson, President cheers, Nadav >I am trying to find a commercially available "studsnuggler" thermal break >product for light gauge steel stud construction, is there such a thing? Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 3 00:13:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA00071 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 00:13:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA05379; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 23:55:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 2 Aug 1998 23:52:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA05141 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 23:51:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05137 for ; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 23:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id XAA0000004646; Sun, 2 Aug 1998 23:01:33 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980803040415.0069c1c8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 23:04:15 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: slipstone construction Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4024 I too am interested in slipstone construction or a modification of this; I would like to know more about the way the Japanese build their slipstone type walls and welcome info from anyone who has some knowledge or experience with this. I found BTW on one of the search engines information saying that Mother Earth News did an article on slipstone construction in their Jan 97 issue. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 3 08:56:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA13060 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:56:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA17516; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:37:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17236 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:37:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17232 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:37:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPQST; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:54:08 -0400 Received: by Walnut.comax.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDBEBA.BA958EC0@Walnut.comax.com>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:43:03 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDBEBA.BA958EC0@Walnut.comax.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Railroad Ties Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:43:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id IAA17233 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4025 Greetings. I have wondered about the environmental effects of treated lumber also. Recently I found information about different types of treatments at the AWPI (American Wood Preservers Institute) web site (www.awpi.org). Treated wood has not been declared a pesticide or hazardous waste, I found, but you should not burn it. Burning could release hazardous fumes. If you had to, you could even landfill the old logs. Of course recycling them would be even better! There is more information about creosote and other wood treatments at the AWPI site. I have not found other sources with information about wood preservation, but I would guess that environmental groups have examined it also. Perhaps we might find that information online... It would be nice to have some info from other types of sources. Jillanna Babb-Cheshul I also have a retaining wall of logs soaked with creosote at a house we just purchased. I have thirty logs, 1.5- to 2.5-feet in diameter and two- to four-feet in length. I had some interest from a local government department in using them to block off four-wheeler access to sensitive areas, but I haven't heard back. I hope someone knows what can be done with them and if there are any liabilities. Patricia Meeks, Klickitat County, Washington pmeeks@msn.com Hey there- Does anyone know the environmental liabilities related to railroad ties that have been used for an existing retaining walls. Is this a case of Toxic waste that needs to be removed? More specifically if they are up hill from a stream are they in effect contaminating the stream. My client does not have a lot of money either. What to do? Danny Sagan- Randolph Ctr VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 3 10:05:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15532 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:05:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21445; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:50:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:46:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA20995 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:46:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA20991 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:46:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.115] (pm3a14.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.238]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA11396; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:56:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:56:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000201bdbe7d$83a10800$929bfad0@default> References: <3.0.3.32.19980802180034.006d14a8@sover.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Patricia Meeks" , "GBList" From: Alex Wilson Subject: RE: GBlist: Railroad Ties Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4026 In response to Danny Sagan's and Patricia Meek's query about old railroad ties: Most railroad ties are treated with creosote, which is primarily a heavy hydrocarbon mix called coal tar. Creosote should be less dangerous than penta (pentachlorophenol), which is a chlorinated hydrocarbon. Certain bacteria can biodegrade creosote, but the breakdown of penta could produce toxic chlorine-containing organic compounds that bioaccumulate in food chains. Assuming the ties are treated with creosote and if they are quite old, I wouldn't worry too much about them, though I would locate the garden some distance away. If they are newer ties from which you can see creosote exuding, I would replace them with something that is safer, such as stone, locust timbers, or recycled-plastic wood. The logs Patricia is referring to (which vary in diameter) sound as if they might be utility poles. Unlike railroad ties, utility poles are often treated with penta, which I would be more concerned about. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News Brattleboro, VT At 6:24 PM -0700 8/2/98, Patricia Meeks wrote: >I also have a retaining wall of logs soaked with creosote at a house we just >purchased. I have thirty logs, 1.5- to 2.5-feet in diameter and two- to >four-feet in length. I had some interest from a local government department >in using them to block off four-wheeler access to sensitive areas, but I >haven't heard back. > >I hope someone knows what can be done with them and if there are any >liabilities. > >Patricia Meeks, Klickitat County, Washington pmeeks@msn.com > >Hey there- Does anyone know the environmental liabilities related to >railroad ties that have been used for an existing retaining walls. Is this >a case of Toxic waste that needs to be removed? More specifically if they >are up hill from a stream are they in effect contaminating the stream. My >client does not have a lot of money either. What to do? >Danny Sagan- Randolph Ctr VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 3 10:06:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15574 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:06:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21538; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:47:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21112 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:47:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21104 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:47:41 -0400 (EDT) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1AMPa20982 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:56:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:56:45 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: PT Wood Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4027 In a message dated 98-08-03 08:49:29 EDT, jillanna@babb.com writes: << Treated wood has not been declared a pesticide or hazardous waste, I found, but you should not burn it. Burning could release hazardous fumes. >> ALSO be VERY VERY careful about using pressure treated wood in areas where there are dogs --- chewing a very SMALL amount of PT wood can easily KILL a dog --- I know of a labrador that had poisoning symptoms but they could NOT figure out what it was and were treating him in the dark, when they finally figured out what it was it was too late --- he had chewed less than a one inch spot on his home deck Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 3 11:02:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17515 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:02:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23818; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:47:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:43:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23529 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:43:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23525 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:43:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPQTL; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:00:11 -0400 Received: by Walnut.comax.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDBECC.51D8A400@Walnut.comax.com>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:48:59 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDBECC.51D8A400@Walnut.comax.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'GBLIST'" Subject: RE: GBlist: PT Wood Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:48:57 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAA23526 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4028 What are the symptoms of poisoning from treated wood? There are a some cats I am worried about, since they were born at a treatment plant that uses CCA (inorganic arsenical) treatment plant. I was told that they were seen drinking from the drainage area. Is CCA as bad as PT for pets? Is older wood safer? Thanks for the help and intelligent ideas. ALSO be VERY VERY careful about using pressure treated wood in areas where there are dogs --- chewing a very SMALL amount of PT wood can easily KILL a dog --- I know of a labrador that had poisoning symptoms but they could NOT figure out what it was and were treating him in the dark, when they finally figured out what it was it was too late --- he had chewed less than a one inch spot on his home deck Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 3 11:35:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18535 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:35:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25234; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:14:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24829 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:14:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24825 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:14:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (chtw09-23.pei.sympatico.ca [207.34.31.167]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA28986 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:23:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35C5D79D.7BAF@pei.sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 12:30:37 -0300 From: Phil Ferraro Reply-To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: slipstone construction References: <1.5.4.32.19980803040415.0069c1c8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4029 David F. Lambertson wrote: >I too am interested in slipstone construction or a modification of this; Back in the 70's I read Living the Good Life by Helen and Scott Nearing. They have a section in their book on slipform construction that is simple and straight forward. I had never done any cement/stone work prior to reading the book but built several greenhouses and a house that I lived in immeadiately after reading the book. All are continuing to hold up quite well 20 years later. The trick is to not have the stone touching, sort the rocks with good smooth faces, save right angle stones for corners and "uglies" for inside the form where they will not be seen. The other thing to watch for is to make the mortar mix thick enough so that it does not run onto the faces of the stones; otherwise the faces will have to be washed with acid after the forms come off. -- Phil Ferraro, Executive Director, P.E.I. ADAPT Council c/o The Farm Centre, 420 University Avenue, Room 103 Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island Canada C1A 7Z5 Phone: (902) 368-2005 Fax: (902) 368-2520 (phone first) Email: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 3 12:26:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20294 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:26:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28427; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:11:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:08:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28117 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:07:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28113 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:07:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.107]) by www.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3363900 ; Mon, 03 Aug 1998 10:03:47 -0800 Message-ID: <35C5E1EE.DE83256B@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 09:14:38 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Brennan CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: footprints References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4030 Terry Brennan wrote: > Upon reflection, I find I don't need another person involved to have the > city-mouse-country mouse arguement. > This must hold true for me as I've found myself discussing this with myself. After working in the country for quite a while I find myself playing an odd role. I'm a first point of contact for many (like me) ex urbanites with an environmental bend and most of my time is spent mediating the urges many bring to 'do things'. My son does a lot of things on our property, things with ropes, pieces of wood, whatever he can find. I'm glad he is too young to operate heavy machinery and lacks the wherewithall to order up a load of concrete I just put another road in to allow us to 'do more work', for more people. I regret this and and feel the irony that basically our work here is about doing less, with less but to do this my footsize has grown. It took a long time to find this road and once I had picked it out from among the landshapes and plants that I had grown familiar with it still took a long time to overcome the reluctance to make it. There is an interesting game or exercise you can do where you cut out the shape of your foot and put it on the ground, then you put your nose to the ground and lift up the footprint and start looking to see what life you can find under that foot. You can poke and probe gently and uncover layer after layer of life. Its hard to walk around for a while without an image of what your stepping on. I like Terry's analogy of obligate symbiants (it allows for my road) but I guess the question is the direction (the path), extent of travel and terms. The last big city I lived in was NYC on the lower east side where my presence displaced another economy and another prescence. It pushed those residents further out, in a similar way that a city pushes out its waste. The 'footprint' exercise works equally well in a city as a mental exercise and the layers become economic, cultural, racial, political, historical. In our limited sense of things these artificial or constructed layers are as valid as what we percieve as a more 'natural' state of things. ... part of the discussion in my head John Salmen ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 3 12:47:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21312 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29541; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:32:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:28:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA29170 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:28:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29158 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:28:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.131]) by www.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3370200 ; Mon, 03 Aug 1998 10:24:34 -0800 Message-ID: <35C5E6BF.E496190D@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 09:35:11 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: slipstone construction References: <1.5.4.32.19980803040415.0069c1c8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4031 We have done a number of slipform wall projects. The largest to 14' height. I like the method and it was fairly simple to get good results but hard to standardize results in a large project without a lot of cosmetic work. Also the piles of rock,cement and formwork required can quickly make a mess of a site. We recently did a variation on a small commercial project that involved precast of wall sections horizontally (subsequently moved and tilted on site). Rocks were placed in forms on a sand bed which worked as a resist. The walls were good, had the consistency I was looking for. They were cast at a cement/gravel yard that had all the components for their manufacture (rock,etc) and the only on site work was bolting them in place. I am increasingly appreciating work that leaves a site clean. John Salmen ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 3 13:27:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22477 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:27:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01851; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:08:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA01516 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:08:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01509 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:08:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DKQ96R8Q; Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:14:53 EDT To: farsan@illawarra.starway.net.au, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:14:26 -0700 Subject: GBlist: research Message-ID: <19980803.131429.7150.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-6,12,14,17-18,20-25 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4032 Hi, I read about your ambitious research project on our greenbuilding discussion group and, while I cannot really add any statistics at this time I would like to suggest some additional information for you to consider. Before reaching the actual construction phase of a project, real greenbuilding begins at the design phase. Aside from the obvious, like energy efficient design measures and non-toxic building materials, one of the main things to consider should construction-efficient design. This means design to minimize waste. An example would be designing interior spaces in the same size modules as such items as drywall and ceiling tiles are manufactured in. It would also include remembering that interior finishing materials, like carpet , are manufactured in standard widths and things like rooms that are , for example, 13'3" wide can lead to excessive waste going to landfills. Just some thoughts to keep in mind, as seen from one who must often deal with the end results of poorly conceived designs. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 3 13:42:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22873 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02773; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:27:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:23:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02423 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:23:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x11.boston.juno.com (x11.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02414 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:23:27 -0400 (EDT) From: woodeneagle@juno.com Received: (from woodeneagle@juno.com) by x11.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DKRA2TZ5; Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:30:12 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:18:55 -0800 Subject: GBlist: RE: Hotels - Meeting Planner Guides Message-ID: <19980803.093217.9174.4.woodeneagle@juno.com> References: <199807310600.CAA20916@solstice.crest.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 3-9 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4033 Jim_Hartzfeld: I for one would like to see the "clutter" on meeting planning.....If you get private e-mails on the subject, could you post them to the list? We do a good bit of meeting planning and I would like ideas to present to the facilities where we meet. Thanks Scott Waterman, Weatherization Program Coordinator Alaska Housing Finance Corporation PO Box 101020 Anchorage, Alaska 99510-1020 phone 907-330-8195 fax 907-338-1747 Use swaterma@corecom.net for sending attached files _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 3 13:46:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA23025 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:46:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03326; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:32:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:28:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02863 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:28:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02859 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:28:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.254.3.160] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:41:50 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: footprints Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:39:04 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1309981584-1849906@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4034 John As one of those city slickers who just fled to an old farmhouse and a bit of land, I've been puzzling over a small thing. Where do you wash paint brushes? The latex paint can't be good for the bugs in the septic tank. So far I've resorted to washing them out over the driveway and flushing the area with lots of water. Is there a better solution? Around here, leftover paint can be recycled at our county solid waste transfer station. It's just the brushes and rollers that worry me. The overall impact of our lives is the result of many small decisions. I'm eager to know how others have dealt with this small problem. Thanks Bruce S John Salmen said: >I'm a first point of contact for many (like me) ex urbanites with an >environmental bend and most of my time is spent mediating the urges many >bring >to 'do things'. ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 3 14:00:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23441 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:00:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04573; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:41:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA04087 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:41:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04070 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DKRB8FPM; Mon, 03 Aug 1998 13:50:45 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:50:14 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Expo 98 Message-ID: <19980803.135016.7150.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-9 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4035 Alex, Just got the latest issue of Good Cents and read a short blurb on Expo 98 in Lisbon. Will EBN be doing any follow-up on the Expo. It sounded interesting. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 3 16:36:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA29230 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12314; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:21:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:17:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11978 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:17:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11974 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:17:34 -0400 (EDT) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 8ZKBa20982; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:26:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6a0892a9.35c61ce8@aol.com> Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:26:15 EDT To: jillanna@babb.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: PT Wood Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4036 In a message dated 98-08-03 10:56:48 EDT, jillanna@babb.com writes: << What are the symptoms of poisoning from treated wood? There are a some cats I am worried about, >> poisoning symptoms in animals include neuro signs - wobbling, uncoordinated, eyes dilated and flickering - may or may not include vomiting ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 3 17:18:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA01109 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:18:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14286; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:03:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:00:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA13933 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:59:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA13920 for ; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:59:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPQWD; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:16:32 -0400 Received: by Walnut.comax.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDBF00.E0F68740@Walnut.comax.com>; Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:05:13 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDBF00.E0F68740@Walnut.comax.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'GBLIST'" Subject: RE: GBlist: PT Wood Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:05:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA13922 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4037 Thank-you. These cats do not gain weight even though they are fed several helpings of cat food a day. They are also quite ornery. I suppose those are symptoms of being born at a manufacturing facility (without much human contact) rather than poisoning. We have been able to catch some of them and rescue them... In a message dated 98-08-03 10:56:48 EDT, jillanna@babb.com writes: << What are the symptoms of poisoning from treated wood? There are a some cats I am worried about, >> poisoning symptoms in animals include neuro signs - wobbling, uncoordinated, eyes dilated and flickering - may or may not include vomiting ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 4 12:08:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02350 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:08:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22088; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:53:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:48:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21662 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:47:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21658 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:47:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.27] (blf27.acadia.net [205.217.217.27]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA23657 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:57:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:57:31 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Certified Forestland News Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4038 SUSTAINABLE FOREST CERTIFICATION STRUGGLES More than 25 million acres of the world's forests have been certified by the Forest Stewardship Council as sustainably managed. While environmental organizations such as the World Wildlife Fund for Nature announced this news with much pomp and circumstance at the end of June, the United Nation's Food and Agriculture Organization says there are nearly 8.5 billion acres of forested lands in the world, meaning that the Forest Stewardship Council has only certified 0.3 percent of the world's forests. While this may be a small amount, it is substantial, said Bruce Cabarle, WWF staff member in Washington, D.C. "The FSC has been able to achieve in four years what it took the organic food movement 15 years to achieve," he said and added that the FSC expects a 100 percent growth rate over the next five years. The Forest Stewardship Council was founded in 1993 to provide a credible system of labeling products as coming from sustainably managed forests. The non-profit, non-governmental organization consists of representatives from the timber industry, environmental groups, indigenous peoples and forest product certification organizations from 25 countries. It is funded by charitable foundations, government donors, membership subscriptions and accreditation fees. The FSC does not accept funding from industry to ensure its independence. Until now, funding has been received from the Austrian, Dutch and Mexican governments, the European Commission, Ford Foundation, MacArthur Foundation, WWF-Netherlands, IUCN-Netherlands and the Swedish Society for Nature Conservation. "Without credible certification, no one would know who is telling the truth," said Matt Freeman-Gleason, the owner of the Environmental Home Center in Seattle, Wash. "The FSC is the only reputable, credible process out there," he said. Like many businesses in the United States and Europe, the Environmental Home Center is trying to meet the growing demands of consumers for forest products whose harvest is not detrimental to the environment. Freeman-Gleason first became interested in certification as a boat builder. "When I was in the boat building business, I couldn't find a way to determine where it (the wood) came from," he said. The Environmental Home Center grew out of the need to provide the consuming public with products from non-destructive forestry. While members of the environmental community as a whole would like to see certified forests spread around the world, the vast majority of the forests currently certified by the FSC are in Sweden, Poland and the United States, said Stacy Brown from the FSC Marketing Department in the United States. It also turns out that the greatest number of consumers of certified products reside in Europe and the United States, said Carbarle. "In the UK there are now 70 different retailers who sell certified products," he said. The WWF has a forest campaign dedicated to preserving forests around the world and bringing them under the certification criteria of the FSC. As a part of this campaign, the Brazilian government has pledged to set aside 62 million acres of new forest protected areas. However, the protected areas will not be certified by the FSC. "Brazil never made an announcement in regards to certification," said Cabarle. There is a working group, however, that is developing a certification standard under the guidance of the FSC and the government is acting as an observer in that process, Cabarle said. The WWF admits that it has run into problems with the FSC, especially in Sweden and Poland where the vast majority of the world's certified forests exist. Representatives from the forest-products industry, said Cabarle, are concerned about the added costs of certification and what the added costs will bring. "An overwhelming number of companies have adopted a let's wait and see attitude. Is it a passing fad? Many in industry believe that the jury is still out" in regards to the effectiveness of the FSC, said Cabarle. Forest certification has been particularly hotly debated in Poland and Sweden, said Carbarle. "It wasn't the yellow brick road, but we were able to negotiate something workable and were able to uphold the integrity of the system," he said. Ultimately, sustainable management of the world's forests is the goal of conservationists. While independent certification under the FSC is "one tool. It is not a panacea," said Cabarle. "If one wants to use a certification tool, the Forest Stewardship Council is the best program out there." Cabarle also admits that there are incidents where certification won't work -- like where there is a breakdown of law and order. "Certification cannot be used as an end around the law," he said. Brown acknowledged that the FSC is a young, but a growing organization, "with a lot of experience and perspective," coming from the cooperative panel of experts involved with the organization. While the scope and reach of sustainably managed forests needs to be expanded in order to have a significant impact on global forestry, Carbarle said "the FSC can be a reinforcing message in the campaign to protect forests around the world." Source: Environmental News Network David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 4 13:38:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA05375 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26400; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:23:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:19:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26042 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:19:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.grove.ufl.edu (root@mail2.grove.ufl.edu [128.227.8.82]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26037 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:19:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willow.grove.ufl.edu (root@grove.ufl.edu [128.227.8.13]) by mail2.grove.ufl.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6/1) with ESMTP id NAA20033 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from KibertG2000.cfaa.ufl.edu (p5172.cfaa.ufl.edu [10.5.5.172]) by willow.grove.ufl.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6/1) with SMTP id NAA25817 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Comments: grove thinks this came from p5172.cfaa.ufl.edu [10.5.5.172] (hop 0) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980804122501.006bab54@grove.ufl.edu> X-Sender: minou@grove.ufl.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 12:25:01 -0400 To: "'GBLIST'" From: Brad Guy Subject: GBlist: Rainwater design Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4039 A couple of questions on a rainwater harvesting design. This cistern is being designed to provide water for toilets in a botanical garden visitors center building. If we need to have a sealed tank, overflow becomes problematic. Assuming that the downspout is connected directly to the roof of the cistern, how is it best handled ? Options seem to be have an outlet pipe as high as possible on the cistern that can handle peak rainfall event. OR valve and divert pipe from the downspout itself that activates when the water reaches a certain height in the cistern. In both cases insuring that water cannot back up to roof gutters. This is in Florida with some serious rains in the Summer when water demand will be lowest and everybody wants minimal maintenance. Any experiences or suggestions would be most appreciated. Thank you. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 4 15:59:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA10946 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05491; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:44:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:40:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05177 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:40:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05172 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:40:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust137.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.137]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id OAA12873 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:49:47 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35C76696.7919@gte.net> Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 15:52:54 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Jobs and Internships Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4040 For those students and recent grads that lurk the list, I just read an article about a new internship program at Hoffman Corp in Appleton, WI. This design/build firm has hired students from the Milwaukee School of Engineering for $2000/month plus lodging for a 12 week period this summer to act as the research arm for the company, investigating options for using green architecture in the design of the new company headquarters. Marty Sell, the company's VP for operations, says "Our master plan includes being a lot smarter about this area and getting good at it by using green architecure in our own building. We wanted our headquarters to serve as a model for our clients and others. There are indeed many opportunities awaiting you. Enjoy and savor. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 4 23:22:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA23773 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA22923; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:07:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:03:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA22684 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:03:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA22680 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:03:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.16] (blf16.acadia.net [205.217.217.16]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA15713 for ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:13:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:13:04 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: efficient refrigerators Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4041 Dear Folks, I recall that we discussed the best refrigerators on the market some time ago, but I can't recall when, or what conclusions were reached. I'm looking for a 16 to 18 cu.ft. model, 110 volt, "normal" price range. I am already aware of Vestfrost and similar brands. Any help would be appreciated. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 5 10:27:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA09803 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:27:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15737; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:12:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:08:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15366 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:08:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15360 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:08:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.112]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4980800 ; Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:36:48 EDT Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980805100926.0068e710@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 10:09:26 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: internships Cc: design@cvn.net In-Reply-To: <199808050600.CAA29928@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4042 Cindy Shea recently posted information on an internship possibility in WI. I am a consultant to a program who is currently seeking a student/recent grad. The York Foundation Energy Program provides technical and financial assistance to nonprofit organizations (in York County, south-central PA) seeking to reduce their energy costs. Services include energy audits, computer energy modeling, preparing specs, reviewing contractor proposals, etc. One area in which we have been trying to make some inroads in the affordable housing market. We attempted to work with some local community development organizations to have them incorporate energy measures in their housing rehabs and new construction. Our limited efforts have not proven successful to date. We are looking for an intern to assist us in reaching this market and helping with our core program. The ideal candidate would have some experience/education in the design/construction industry. The position is being funded by a nonprofit organization called Design Corps. Their mission is to provide design services to organizations who would not be able to otherwise afford them. Visit their web site at www.designcorps.org for more information on this organization and a description of our's and other internship positions. More information on the York Foundation Energy Program and the specific duties of the intern position can be obtained by contacting me directly. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 5 10:33:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10036 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16408; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:18:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:14:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15883 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ci.portland.or.us (pdxnet.ci.portland.or.us [207.109.34.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15875 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:14:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linux1.bis.city (root@linux1.bis.city [10.80.1.15]) by ci.portland.or.us (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id HAA45890 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:24:24 -0700 Received: from issd1.bis.city (issd1.bis.city [10.80.1.16]) by linux1.bis.city (8.7.3/8.7.1) with SMTP id HAA03555 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 07:23:10 -0700 Received: from Portland-Message_Server by issd1.bis.city with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 05 Aug 1998 07:24:19 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 07:30:03 -0700 From: Curt Nichols To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: efficient refrigerators -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4043 David__ There are many sources for the information you're seeking. One is the annual ACEEE book -- Consumer Guide to Home Energy Savings -- which lists an 18.2 cu ft (top freezer) Hotpoint (CTH18EAX) in the '96 issue I have. This machine would use 518 kWh/yr. Of course, that information is slightly dated. And, some other, web-based sources are also available. There is a California Energy Commission site listing efficient applicances and one from the Oregon Office of Energy that I use more frequently. The URL for that site is: Good luck. I hope this helps, Curt Curt Nichols Portland Energy Office ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 5 10:33:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10044 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:33:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16428; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:18:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:14:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15898 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:14:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15894 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000009569 for ; Wed, 05 Aug 1998 09:21:04 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Aug 98 09:32:23 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: RE: GBlist: Railroad Ties To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5366999.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4044 jillanna@babb.com writes: There is more information about creosote and other wood treatments at the AWPI site. I have not found other sources with information about wood preservation, but I would guess that environmental groups have examined it also. Perhaps we might find that information online... It would be nice to have some info from other types of sources. See the Sustainable Building Sourcebook chapter on treated wood (and alternatives) at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/woodtreatment.html -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 5 12:12:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13388 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:12:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21083; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:57:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:53:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA20719 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:52:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20714 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.65] (pm0a1.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.65]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA10379 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:02:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebnpr@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:02:30 -0400 To: Greenbuilding List From: Doug Patterson Subject: GBlist: Car Parks and Cycle-Stations Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4045 Oliver Lowenstein from England is researching alternatives to traditional downtown parking garages. He wrote me recently asking if I knew of any interesting designs or ideas for "car parks". He is also looking at Cycle-Stations a place that would provide rest, refreshment for cyclists at strategically located places on bike paths, in downtowns, and at car parks. The stations would include rest rooms, showers, bike repair and rental facilities, maps of the local area with bike routes, etc. If you are interested in the car park or cycle-station idea, can either respond to the list and I will forward the responses to Oliver or you can respond to me or send your ideas directly to Oliver at: fourthdoor@pavilion.co.uk Doug Patterson Environmental Building News, publishers of the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction, the E Build Library CD-ROM, and the EBN Product Catalog. 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 5 12:25:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13813 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:25:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22054; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:10:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:07:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21578 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:06:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21568 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:06:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA10752 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:16:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md11-40.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.168) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma010733; Wed Aug 5 11:15:48 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980805121405.032f90d8@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 12:14:08 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: rainwater catchment (Bermuda) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4046 I suggest you look into how Bermuda buildings have been solving this problem for hundreds of years. The Bermuda houses use white plastered concrete roofs, integral catchment gutters, with concrete cisterns located under buildings (except under toilet blocks). Down spouts are screened with cleanouts. I do not know how they handle surplus water, but since Bermuda does experience tropical storms (last major hurricane 1987) there is likely some waste-gate system in the piping somewhere. I searched the web and found no design drawings for such systems on line, alas. Perhaps contacting the Bermuda library in Hamilton (Bermuda area code is 411) could locate a home building reference? A further benefit of the white concrete roofs is their solar reflectance and thermal mass avoidance of tropical sun heat gain, which lowers (obviates) air-conditioning loads especially if fenestration is overhung, located for cross venting, and vegetation is planted near the outside walls (also frequently light pastel colors). The roofs are cleaned and whitewashed annually by all but the least energetic homeowners. This totally integrated system avoids the aesthetic problems of large storage tanks sited near the home (al-la the Pliny Fisk eco house look), but does increase service costs and complicates leak detection. ---- you wrote ----- >Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 12:25:01 -0400 >From: Brad Guy >Subject: GBlist: Rainwater design > >A couple of questions on a rainwater harvesting design. This cistern is >being designed to provide water for toilets in a botanical garden visitors >center building. > >If we need to have a sealed tank, overflow becomes problematic. Assuming >that the downspout is connected directly to the roof of the cistern, how is >it best handled ? Options seem to be have an outlet pipe as high as >possible on the cistern that can handle peak rainfall event. OR valve and >divert pipe from the downspout itself that activates when the water reaches >a certain height in the cistern. > >In both cases insuring that water cannot back up to roof gutters. > >This is in Florida with some serious rains in the Summer when water demand >will be lowest and everybody wants minimal maintenance. Any experiences or >suggestions would be most appreciated. Thank you. >______________________________________________________ | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 5 13:18:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15997 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25592; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:04:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:00:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25282 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA25229 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.115] (pm3a3.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.227]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA03670; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:09:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Curt Nichols , dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: efficient refrigerators -Reply Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4047 At 7:30 AM -0700 8/5/98, Curt Nichols wrote: >There are many sources for the information you're seeking. One is the >annual ACEEE book -- Consumer Guide to Home Energy Savings -- which >lists an 18.2 cu ft (top freezer) Hotpoint (CTH18EAX) in the '96 issue >I have. This machine would use 518 kWh/yr. The current edition of the Consumer Guide to Home Energy Savings (1998) shows the same Hotpoint as well as a GE (TBH18) fridge at the size and energy consumption Curt provided. These are the most efficient in that size category, though several 18.5 cu ft models from Jenn-Air and Maytag are virtually identical, using 527 kWh/year. Alex Wilson, Editor, Environmental Building News Co-author, Consumer Guide to Home Energy Savings (ACEEE) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 5 18:56:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA28835 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:56:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14051; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:41:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:37:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13701 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.transport.com (mail3.transport.com [209.222.130.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13696 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:37:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netserver.czopek.com (mail.czopek.com [209.51.77.214]) by mail3.transport.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA14390 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:46:31 -0700 Received: by NETSERVER with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1459.74) id ; Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:29:14 -0700 Message-ID: From: Jan Scilipoti To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Cob Workshop Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:29:13 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1459.74) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4048 "Building With Earth", weekend cob workshops on August 21-23 and 28-30 will be held in Salem, Oregon. Join Salem carpenter and cob builder Eric Hoel in finishing a two-storey cob house! The workshop will include cob construction in making earthen floors and plasters, finishing a cob wall, attaching roofs, installing windows and foundations. To register or obtain additional information call (503) 977-7842 or contact Jan at jan@czopek.com. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 5 20:07:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA01014 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 20:07:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA16885; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:52:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:49:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA16540 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:48:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA16536 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000009741 for ; Wed, 05 Aug 1998 18:55:51 -0500 Date: Wed, 5 Aug 98 19:07:13 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: Rainwater design To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5367721.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4049 We wrote "The Texas Guide to Rainwater Harvesting" for the Texas Water Development Board a few years back. May have some information of use. Copies are available free, and can be obtained by faxing your request to 512/463-9893. G. Vittori -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 5 21:16:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA03003 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 21:16:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19729; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 21:01:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 5 Aug 1998 20:57:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA19433 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 20:57:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail3.transport.com (mail3.transport.com [209.222.130.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19429 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 20:57:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from netserver.czopek.com (mail.czopek.com [209.51.77.214]) by mail3.transport.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA25451 for ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:07:14 -0700 Received: by NETSERVER with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1459.74) id ; Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:02:34 -0700 Message-ID: From: Jan Scilipoti To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Sprayer for earthen plaster Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:02:33 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1459.74) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4050 Greetings. Has anyone found a sprayer that will apply an earthen mix? We are working on exterior sb walls, and are able to spray our clay slip directly onto the bales, but have yet to find a unit that will spray our slip/manure/straw base coat. Thanks! Jan Scilipoti jan@czopek.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 6 06:29:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA17657 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA01544; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:09:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA01304 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:09:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA01300 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:09:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on3-12.netcom.ca [207.181.90.140]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA22871 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:18:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199808061018.GAA22871@tor-smtp2.netcom.ca> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 05:17:48 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Sprayer for earthen plaster Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4051 At 06:02 PM 05/08/98 -0700, Jan Scilipoti wrote: (sniP), but >have yet to find a unit that will spray our slip/manure/straw >base coat. > Finding a sprayer to spray chopped straw might be a tall order. How about blowing the chopped straw onto the wall simultaneously with spraying on the slip/manure? There is a method for spraying on fiberglass where the glass fibers are chopped and added to the polyester resin after it leaves the nozzle. ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 6 07:15:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA18805 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:15:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA02944; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:56:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:52:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA02606 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:52:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA02602 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:52:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.201.54] (usr2a82.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.82]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA11766; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:02:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5366999.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:54:10 -0400 To: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: RE: GBlist: Railroad Ties Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4052 Hi Bill, We've put the full text of our detailed article dealing with treated wood end-of-life issues online: http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Features/Treated_Wood/Treated_wood_disposal.html You might want to add a link to it from our Sourcebook page! Nadav At 9:32 AM -0500 8/5/98, XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ wrote: >jillanna@babb.com writes: >There is more information about creosote and other wood treatments at the AWPI >site. I have not found other sources with information about wood >preservation, but I would guess that environmental groups have examined it >also. Perhaps we might find that information online... It would be nice to >have some info from other types of sources. > >See the Sustainable Building Sourcebook chapter on treated wood (and >alternatives) at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/woodtreatment.html > > >-- > >Bill Christensen >billc@greenbuilder.com >Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 6 07:16:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA18826 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:16:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA02785; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:54:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:50:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA02450 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:50:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA02446 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 06:50:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA00564 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dsy1.vineyard.net(206.166.158.59) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id smaa00447; Thu Aug 6 07:00:14 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 07:04:34 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: Design Professional Needed Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4053 Dear All, South Mountain Company, Inc. is an employee owned design/build firm on Martha's Vineyard. We have an opening for an experienced architect/designer. This job has the potential for rewarding work, good compensation, and future ownership. We're seeking a mature, dynamic individual with at least ten years of residential design experience to join our practice, which is committed to ecological design, fine craft, a supportive work environment, and personal fulfillment. Strong design, graphic, communication and documentation skills are essential, as is the desire and ability to work as part of a creative team. A more detailed description of the job, employee policies and benefits, and descriptive materials about the company are available. I hope it's appropriate to post this notice. If any of you are interested, let me know. Or, if you know someone that fits this bill and may be looking to re-locate and change their life, pass this along. Possibly related is our involvement with the development of a new cohousing community here. There are two remaining homes, so there may be an interesting living arrangement available for the right person as well. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 6 10:24:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24407 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:24:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08936; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:09:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:03:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08435 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:03:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08429 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:03:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JOSEPHCH (207-172-241-215.s24.as8.bsd.erols.com [207.172.241.215]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA20497 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:13:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:13:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199808061413.KAA20497@smtp1.erols.com> X-Sender: usbt@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Joe Charlson Subject: Re: GBlist: Sprayer for earthen plaster Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4054 At 06:02 PM 8/5/98 -0700, you wrote: >Greetings. >Has anyone found a sprayer that will apply an >earthen mix? >have yet to find a unit that will spray our slip/manure/straw >base coat. Try Ark-Seal out of Denver Colorado. They make a sprayer for Fiberiffic, an insulation mix that can handle a variety of fibers i think. On a different note, manure contains cryptosporidia and giardia (two parasites). It also probably contains organic nutrient that can facilitate mold growth. I know they use it parts of Africa and other places but why do you use it in your plaster mix rather than upping the straw and the slip content. Curiously, what is your mix slip/manure/straw ratio? Thanks, Joe Charlson ****************************************** Joe Charlson United States Building Technology, Inc. http://www.erols.com/usbt 701-B Waverly Street,Framingham, MA, 01702 USA Tel: 508-424-0055, Fax: 508-424-0050 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 6 11:45:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28123 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:45:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13231; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:30:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:26:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12856 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:26:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from poseidon.coastside.net (poseidon.coastside.net [207.213.212.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12850 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hummer.coastside.net (slapshot.coastside.net [207.213.214.81]) by poseidon.coastside.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA24504 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 08:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980806083923.007b0bb0@coastside.net> X-Sender: casey@coastside.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 08:39:23 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Casey Watson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4055 I am a recent subscriber to the GBList and am very impressed with the wealth of information that is readily shared by this group. As a fairly recent grad (96) working for a consulting firm doing pollution reduction and regulation, I am planning a change to a more proactive, pollution prevention oriented job. My degree is chemical engineering, but I'm interested in everything and ready to learn! To this end, I'm looking for newsletters, journals, websites, user groups, and other information sources for news on sustainable design, green manufacturing, lifecycle analysis/design, desining for reuse/recycle, lifecycle energy usage calculations, markets for energy savings, and just about every other environmentally conscious, non-regulatory driven piece of information I can find. I'm sure you are aware of sources that I have not yet found and I'd be delighted if you would share them. If you could email me contact information (addresses, phone numbers, websites, book titles, etc) for those sources that you have found particularly helpful, I would appreciate it. Thanks! Casey Watson Genovesi ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 6 11:56:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28577 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13769; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:38:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13503 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:37:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13498 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:37:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA22110 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:47:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md11-16.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.144) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma022064; Thu Aug 6 10:46:42 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980806114500.0077b20c@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:45:03 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Bermuda Area Code correction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4056 Bermuda Area Code Correction -- Sorry folks, the proper telephone area code for Bermuda is [ 441 ], _not_ 411 as previously listed by yours truly. Be glad I don't work for the post office. | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 6 12:03:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA28745 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:03:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14204; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:48:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:44:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13915 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:44:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13909 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:44:18 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DKYUQAJB; Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:53:42 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:14:11 -0500 Subject: GBlist: SASBC August 98 Meeting Message-ID: <19980806.111412.-73675.1.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.9 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5-6,13-14,25-26,33-34,39-42 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4057 San Antonio Sustainable Building Coalition Press Release For Immediate Release For more information contact Steve Shepard (210) 698-7109 LARRY WAYNE HAESE WITH GRAYWATER RECYLING, INC. TO ADDRESS SAN ANTONIO SUSTAINABLE BUILDING COALITION San Antonio, Texas August 6, 1998: Larry Wayne Haese with Graywater Recycling, Incorporated of San Antonio, Texas will be the featured speaker for the Tuesday, August 25, 1998 meeting of the San Antonio Sustainable Building Coalition. Mr. Haese will speak on the topic of Water Recycling systems and techniques for residential and light commercial structures and applications. Mr. Haese will be joined by his partner Mr. Hugo Lamprea for this informative presentation. Larry Wayne Haese is a native of San Antonio, Texas, a builder, a licensed journeyman plumber and medical gas technician. He was one of the developers for the Scenic Oaks Subdivision where his company built twenty homes and pioneered gated communities in the San Antonio region. Mr. Haese worked closely with the Texas Water Commission to develop one of the state’s first residential water conservation and recycling systems. One of the products of this work was the invention of the Graywater Recycling System (patent pending). A working model of this system is in operation at this time at the Pallatium Villas subdivision in the Thousand Oaks area and has been approved by San Antonio Building Department. Graywater Recycling, Inc. won the San Antonio Water System’s (SAWS) May 1998 Water Savers Too Award and has been chosen by SAWS and Texas Natural Resource Conservation Commission (TNRCC) along with the San Antonio Plumbing Department to help develop the rules, regulations for gray water recycling in the State of Texas. Graywater Recycling, Inc. is located at 8641 Barn Owl Lane, San Antonio, Texas 78255. The telephone number is (210) 698-0057. The monthly meetings of the San Antonio Sustainable Building Coalition are held each fourth Tuesday evening of the month at the Whole Foods Market 225 Basse Road, San Antonio, Texas 78204 in the Quarry Shopping Center (210-826-4676). The next meeting is Tuesday, 7:00PM, August 25, 1998. This is an open meeting and the general public is invited. ### _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 6 15:29:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01449 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25477; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:56:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:52:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25141 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25137 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:52:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust1.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.1]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id OAA09237 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:02:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35C9FE72.36E0@gte.net> Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 15:05:22 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Eco Industrial Parks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4058 Is anybody on the list actively involved in an ongoing eco-industrial park project? I'm writing an article for WorldWatch magazine that will include a section on EIPs and would like to hear about your experience. Thanks, Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 6 15:29:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01452 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:29:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24723; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:47:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:44:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24399 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:43:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24395 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from .sover.net (pm0a4.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.132]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA02391 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:53:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35CA1F76.628D@sover.net> Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 14:26:14 -0700 From: Cindy Blakeslee X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Construction and Demolition Materials Recycling Conference Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4059 For those of you not on the mailing list, there will be a joint conference presented by C&D Debris Recycling magazine and the Used Building Materials Association on September 27-30 in Dallas. Many topics, from asphalt shingle recycling to marketing recycled and used construction materials, will be featured. Call 1/800/288-8606 for more info... -- Cindy Blakeslee, Reuser Extraordinaire 802/479-9341 Visit the RESIDUUM! website to see our inventory: http://www.sover.net/~reuser/index.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 6 15:29:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01455 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:29:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24256; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:35:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23650 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:35:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.eni.net (mail1.eni.net [205.214.51.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23638 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:35:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.nrdc.org (mail.nrdc.org [207.168.63.2]) by mail1.eni.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA22445 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ccMail by mail.nrdc.org (IMA Internet Exchange 3.01 Enterprise) id 000068AD; Thu, 6 Aug 98 14:56:52 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:26:49 -0400 Message-ID: <000068AD.CE21512@nrdc.org> From: rwatson@nrdc.org (Rob Watson) Subject: GBlist: Re: To: Casey Watson , greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4060 Casey--Try looking at <> It should keep you busy for awhile. Rob Watson Natural Resources Defense Council 40 W. 20th St. New York, NY 10011 (212) 727-4489 direct (212) 727-1773 fax (212) 727-2700 general email: rwatson@nrdc.org ____________________Reply Separator____________________ Subject: Author: Casey Watson Date: 8/6/98 8:39 AM I am a recent subscriber to the GBList and am very impressed with the wealth of information that is readily shared by this group. As a fairly recent grad (96) working for a consulting firm doing pollution reduction and regulation, I am planning a change to a more proactive, pollution prevention oriented job. My degree is chemical engineering, but I'm interested in everything and ready to learn! To this end, I'm looking for newsletters, journals, websites, user groups, and other information sources for news on sustainable design, green manufacturing, lifecycle analysis/design, desining for reuse/recycle, lifecycle energy usage calculations, markets for energy savings, and just about every other environmentally conscious, non-regulatory driven piece of information I can find. I'm sure you are aware of sources that I have not yet found and I'd be delighted if you would share them. If you could email me contact information (addresses, phone numbers, websites, book titles, etc) for those sources that you have found particularly helpful, I would appreciate it. Thanks! Casey Watson Genovesi ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10]) by mail.nrdc.org with SMTP (IMA Internet Exchange 3.01 Enterprise) id 000066DC; Thu, 6 Aug 98 11:48:16 -0400 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12900; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:26:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:26:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12856 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:26:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from poseidon.coastside.net (poseidon.coastside.net [207.213.212.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12850 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hummer.coastside.net (slapshot.coastside.net [207.213.214.81]) by poseidon.coastside.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA24504 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 08:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980806083923.007b0bb0@coastside.net> X-Sender: casey@coastside.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 08:39:23 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Casey Watson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 6 15:40:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01974 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:40:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27467; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:25:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:21:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA27067 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:21:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27061 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 15:21:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA29623 for ; Thu, 06 Aug 1998 15:30:51 -0400 Message-id: <4174421@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 06 Aug 98 15:31:11 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Idaho consultant To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4061 A person in Idaho contacted me. He desires to integrate PV, superinsulation, a Century Fireplace Furnace, solar hot water, etc., into a new house he has designed for himself. He sent me some drawings and I feel he would be better served by someone close to him, as there is a lot of system integration and building detailing to be attended to. Anyone either interested or have a suggestion? He's in Boise. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 6 20:16:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA09239 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:16:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12551; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:01:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:57:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA12252 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:57:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ci.portland.or.us (pdxnet.ci.portland.or.us [207.109.34.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12248 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:57:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linux1.bis.city (root@linux1.bis.city [10.80.1.15]) by ci.portland.or.us (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id RAA32798 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:07:39 -0700 Received: from issd1.bis.city (issd1.bis.city [10.80.1.16]) by linux1.bis.city (8.7.3/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA24741 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:06:11 -0700 Received: from Portland-Message_Server by issd1.bis.city with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 06 Aug 1998 17:07:32 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 17:13:19 -0700 From: Curt Nichols To: greenbuilding@crest.org, mcshea1@gte.net Subject: GBlist: Infared Photos -- Visual Proof of the Benefits of Weatherization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4062 Green Builders__ We have an opportunity to place an article in a special local newspaper supplement to be published during October, Energy Awareness Month. We brainstormed the kind of article we could write, trying to match this year's theme -- "Heat Your Home, Not Your Planet" -- and not duplicate other planned articles. We decided that an article on home insulation levels (with infrared photos) would work well. However, we don't have any infrared photos of homes. I think I remember seeing a "Home Energy" article that had some. Can anyone tell me what issue that was? Or, does anyone have access to some stock photos -- an uninsulated home and an insulated one side-by-side? Of course, the same home with before and after photos would be great too. If so, I'm wondering if we can borrow them for use in this article. Any offers -- or leads -- will be appreciated. And, the photographer/organization will be appropriately credited. Thanks, Curt Curt Nichols Portland Energy Office ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 6 20:37:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA09414 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:37:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA13335; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:18:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA13074 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:18:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA13068 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:18:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa7-p33.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.161]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA24455; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:28:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35CA488F.2C396ED3@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 20:21:35 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Curt Nichols CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Infared Photos -- Visual Proof of the Benefits of Weatherization References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4063 Curt, I'm sure Certainteed or Owens Corning would be delighted to supply all the IR photos you would like for a small photo credit, or the Cellulose Manufacturer's Association. Chuck Hinckley Curt Nichols wrote: Can anyone > tell me what issue that was? Or, does anyone have access to some > stock photos -- an uninsulated home and an insulated one side-by-side? > Of course, the same home with before and after photos would be great > too. > > If so, I'm wondering if we can borrow them for use in this article. > Any offers -- or leads -- will be appreciated. And, the > photographer/organization will be appropriately credited. > > Thanks, > > Curt > > Curt Nichols > Portland Energy Office > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 6 23:41:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11841 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 23:41:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA19073; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 23:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 6 Aug 1998 23:20:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18834 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 23:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18830 for ; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 23:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip147.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.147]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA25278; Thu, 6 Aug 1998 23:29:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980807034019.0075d0dc@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 23:40:19 -0400 To: Curt Nichols , greenbuilding@crest.org, mcshea1@gte.net From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Infared Photos -- Visual Proof of the Benefits ofWeatherization Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4064 >However, we don't have any infrared photos of homes ... I have many, mostly of interiors, sidewalls, ductwork, baseboard, etc. w/ real time images to go along. Take a look at the website below & call me to discuss what you want. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 7 08:42:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA15747 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:42:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02275; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:27:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:23:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01815 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01808 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:22:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Snyder.Robin@epamail.epa.gov Received: from EPAHUB8.RTPTOK.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-10 #26439) with SMTP id <0EXB00HVOK7EEH@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:33:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by EPAHUB8.RTPTOK.EPA.GOV(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.2 (600.1 3-26-1998)) id 85256659.0044A04D ; Fri, 07 Aug 1998 08:29:34 -0400 Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 08:32:30 -0400 Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco Industrial Parks To: mcshea1@gte.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <85256659.0044A369.00@EPAHUB8.RTPTOK.EPA.GOV> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline X-Lotus-FromDomain: EPA Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4065 Suzanne Giannini-Spohn of our staff (EPA's Urban & Economic Development Division) works with a number of EIP projects and has developed computer software to support EIP decision-making. You can reach her at 202-260-7568. mcshea1@gte.net on 08/06/98 03:05:22 PM Please respond to mcshea1@gte.net To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: Subject: GBlist: Eco Industrial Parks Is anybody on the list actively involved in an ongoing eco-industrial park project? I'm writing an article for WorldWatch magazine that will include a section on EIPs and would like to hear about your experience. Thanks, Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 7 09:22:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16470 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:22:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03946; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:07:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:03:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03576 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:03:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03571 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:03:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.201.20] (usr2a60.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.60]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA08461; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:12:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980806083923.007b0bb0@coastside.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:42:09 -0400 To: Casey Watson From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: Re: request for info leads Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4066 Hi Casey, Your query seems like a great lead-in to a word from your sponsors-- If you haven't visited the Web sites in the footer of every greenbuilding list message, that would be a great place to start. We three organizations who have come together to bring you this list are, if I do say myself, among the leading resources in this field. CREST provides Web sites and interactive software, including The Greening of the White, Greenhome, Solar Sizer and the forthcoming Green Building Advisor. They had a good Web site before most of us had not yet heard of the Internet, and it's still one of the best. Iris has an extensive online database of green building materials, and a catalog, both in print and online, from which you can order many of the best resources. And we at Environmental Building News provide the leading periodical in the field, along with a unique Product Catalog and the E Build Library CD-ROM, with all our back issues and much more. Our Web site has most of the product reviews we've published, some feature articles, and lots more. Nadav At 8:39 AM -0700 8/6/98, Casey Watson wrote: >I am a recent subscriber to the GBList and am very impressed with the >wealth of information that is readily shared by this group. As a fairly >recent grad (96) working for a consulting firm doing pollution reduction >and regulation, I am planning a change to a more proactive, pollution >prevention oriented job. My degree is chemical engineering, but I'm >interested in everything and ready to learn! > >To this end, I'm looking for newsletters, journals, websites, user groups, >and other information sources for news on sustainable design, green >manufacturing, lifecycle analysis/design, desining for reuse/recycle, >lifecycle energy usage calculations, markets for energy savings, and just >about every other environmentally conscious, non-regulatory driven piece of >information I can find. I'm sure you are aware of sources that I have not >yet found and I'd be delighted if you would share them. If you could email >me contact information (addresses, phone numbers, websites, book titles, >etc) for those sources that you have found particularly helpful, I would >appreciate it. > >Thanks! >Casey Watson Genovesi ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 7 11:18:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18631 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:18:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09655; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:03:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:59:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09220 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from golden.brown.edu (golden.brown.edu [128.148.128.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09211 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:59:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.148.87.100] (bootp-100.envstudies.brown.edu [128.148.87.100]) by golden.brown.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA02515 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:09:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: Charlotte_Matthews@Postoffice.Brown.EDU Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:09:12 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Charlotte Matthews Subject: GBlist: Solarium Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4067 The professionals- A woman, with whom I work, and I were discussing how best to repair her "solarium" without razing it to the ground and beginning anew. Inspite of all my new thesis research and work with Brown's environmental building consultant-of-sorts, I hadn't a clue where such a project begins. Do you insulate and install a better ventilation unit? But its only a greenhouse essentially, and as cheap to run as it was to build. How far do you go? What parts do you invest money into and what do you just let alone? .... However, I knew just the people who could help- so here is the forwarded description of her situation. We would appreciate any and all advice. Thank you sincerely. > >My house which was built in the late 1940s has a solarium attached to the back >of it that was added (I think) by an energy conscious handy person in the >70's. It is obviously a one of a kind type of addition made of wood and >Plexiglas. It's about 20 X 10 feet. The long wall is Plexiglas oriented to >the South at an angle to the sun, with a wood wall that is approximately 2ft >high (atop which the Plexiglas sits). The end walls are old barnboard. > >There are two panes of Plexiglas separated by about 4-5 inches of air space. >There is wood framing for the Plexiglas in about 18 inch squares. There are >strips of metal bolted to the outside which I assume hold the outer layer of >Plexiglas to the wooden frame. >It is about 12 feet high and has thermostatically controlled fans high on the >back wall (which was originally the back wall of the house) that blow hot air >into the second floor in the winter. There are windows that open into the >first floor for solar heat in the winter. >It has a brick floor which I assume has some type of thermal mass underneath. >It has two small high windows that open to the outside on one end and a >sliding patio door and small ventilation window very high up on the other end. >The Plexiglas is all fixed, so the door and small windows are the only >ventilation. It is also set up to have hot air blown into it from a wood >stove in the basement during cold weather. I have never used this feature and >have no wood stove, nor do I want one. > >The advantages to this space are: > I love it. > During the winter, the heat in my house never goes on when the sun is > shining. > Some plants do real well out there. (Some just fry) > It's a wonderful place to be on cold sunny winter days. > >The disadvantages are: > The Plexiglas is cracked in several places. > The wood is rotting in places. > It is too hot and stuffy to use most of the summer and too cold to >use, except during > the day,in winter. > It leaks -- the roof, the cracks in the Plexiglas and maybe the >walls too. > The windows that open to the outside are too high to reach easily. > >I want to keep this space, and would like advice about how to best fix it >so that it has fewer problems yet still retains its good features. > >Thanks >Ellen House > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 7 23:53:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA01458 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 23:53:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08736; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 23:38:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 7 Aug 1998 23:32:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08482 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 23:32:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08478 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 1998 23:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.70]) by www.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3249600 ; Fri, 07 Aug 1998 21:28:53 -0800 Message-ID: <35CBC863.F7EE718B@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 20:39:15 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Sullivan CC: Green Building Subject: Re: GBlist: footprints References: <1309981584-1849906@irisinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4068 I guess the flurry of responses means there aren't a lot of solutions for the little problems. I like this one because I remember standing with a roller and a brush next to an outside hose bib wondering what the hell I was going to do. My solutions have not been great but one of the things I wanted to mention is that most urban drains are in the end less capable than a basic leach field, they just have that immediate sense of disposal - elsewhere. My solutions have been to freeze brushes and rollers that are in constant use, and when cleaning is required it is in a few containers where I let the solids settle. One of the only benefits of this kind of concern is the increased leisure that comes out of a well considered reluctance to paint. best John Bruce Sullivan wrote: > John > > As one of those city slickers who just fled to an old farmhouse and a bit > of land, I've been puzzling over a small thing. Where do you wash paint > brushes? The latex paint can't be good for the bugs in the septic tank. > So far I've resorted to washing them out over the driveway and flushing > the area with lots of water. Is there a better solution? > > Around here, leftover paint can be recycled at our county solid waste > transfer station. It's just the brushes and rollers that worry me. > > The overall impact of our lives is the result of many small decisions. > I'm eager to know how others have dealt with this small problem. > > Thanks > > Bruce S > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com > Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 > Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com > -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Aug 8 11:45:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07692 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 11:45:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23104; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 11:31:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 8 Aug 1998 11:26:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22788 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 11:26:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22783 for ; Sat, 8 Aug 1998 11:26:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000010583 for ; Sat, 08 Aug 1998 10:33:34 -0500 Date: Sat, 8 Aug 98 10:45:04 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: Idaho consultant To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5372237.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4069 Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET writes: >A person in Idaho contacted me. He desires to integrate PV, superinsulation, a >Century Fireplace Furnace, solar hot water, etc., into a new house he has >designed for himself. He sent me some drawings and I feel he would be better >served by someone close to him, as there is a lot of system integration and >building detailing to be attended to. Anyone either interested or have a >suggestion? He's in Boise. The Green Building Professionals Directory (http://www.greenbuilder.com/directory/) has only one person listed in Idaho so far: Contact: Bruce Millard Architects Studio 323 North First Ave Sandpoint, ID 83864 Country: US Phone: 208 263 3815 Fax: 208 263 3959 Email: bemarch@netw.com Personal, environmentally sensitive, and healthly architecture. Strawbale, breathing/recycled wall systems, passive solar, recycled, and sustainable construction. Full design or consulting services. Code compliance, construction research,and workshops. -- By the way, if you're not yet in the directory, I encourage you to list yourself. It's getting a fair bit of traffic these days. The suggested $25 payment is optional, on a "pay if you feel it's a worthwhile service" basis. BC -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 10 08:06:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA29778 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 08:06:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA25117; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 07:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 10 Aug 1998 07:46:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA24660 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 07:46:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA24656 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 07:46:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA8-p17.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.209]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id HAA24089 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 07:56:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35CEDE46.6D1BA2F7@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 07:49:26 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: global warming & disease Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4070 Filed at 6:22 a.m. EDT By The Associated Press NEW YORK (AP) -- Although many scientists have suggested that climactic changes related to global warming could foster outbreaks of cholera, dengue fever and malaria, researchers have been unable to produce much supporting evidence because of only modest amounts of warming. However, that is changing because of El Nino, which could prove to be a blessing for scientists, The New York Times reported today. Scientists say the El Nino effect -- caused by a warming of part of the Pacific Ocean -- probably will make 1998 the warmest year in several centuries. In the belief that this year and last might foreshadow the weather of the next few decades, scientists have begun amassing data about weather-related illness and death, according to the Times. Some findings: --The World Health Organization reports leaps in the incidence of malaria worldwide, coinciding with extreme El Nino-affected weather events. Heat and rainfall affect transmission of the mosquito-borne disease. --Tens of thousands of people in Kenya and Somalia were afflicted by Rift Valley fever, also mosquito-borne, after El Nino rains, the heaviest since 1961, fell in the region. --The incidence of cholera increased greatly over the past year in Latin America and Africa. The increase was associated with El Nino rains and floods. --In the southern Rockies, a warm, wet winter resulted in more food and cover for deer mice, which transmit the deadly hantavirus to humans, and increased their numbers. Three deaths were reported. --Hundreds of thousands of people were subjected to respiratory ailments after forest fires -- attributed to an El Nino drought -- in Southeast Asia. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 10 10:44:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01968 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:44:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02037; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:25:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01621 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:25:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.pair.com (relay1.pair.com [209.68.1.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01616 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:25:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dnatella (asc199.idsonline.com [207.176.21.199]) by relay.pair.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA19254; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:13:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980810100306.00728834@scgcorp.com> X-Sender: dnatella@scgcorp.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:03:06 -0400 To: Greenbuilding From: Dave Natella Subject: GBlist: interior bill Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4071 I just received a mail response from my Congressman, Tom Davis (R-Virginia, 11th District) regarding my support for the Fox-Skaggs amendment to H.R. 4193, the Deptartment of the Interior FY 1999 appropriations bill. He ended up supporting the compromise amendment that provided $20 million of the $25 million in funding that Fox-Skaggs would have restored to Department of Energy energy-efficiency projects. In his letter, Mr. Davis mentions that: "A recent study conducted by the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology has estimated that energy-efficiency measures instituted in the past twenty years are saving the nation over $170 billion per year. Much of this econonmic windfall may be attributed to DOE research and development into energy-efficient technologies. The General Accounting Office (GAO) audited five of these technologies and found that our investment of $14 billion had produced over $27 billion for our economy." Mr. Davis adds that the new amendment does not fund the energy-efficient technologies program out of the Bureau of Land Management Wild Horse and Burro program, where funds would have come from under the Fox-Skaggs amendment. Where the funds are coming from he does not say. Dave Natella The Scientific Consulting Group, Inc. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 10 16:24:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA06819 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20194; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:09:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:05:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA19849 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19844 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:05:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id PAA14146 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 15:14:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md11-33.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.161) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma014121; Mon Aug 10 15:14:27 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980810161243.0077163c@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:12:45 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: EPA Global Warming Web site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4072
With July 1998 in the news as the hottest month _ever_, here is a web site for more information from the U. S. EPA. EPA Global Warming site: < Under impacts, you can examine the state by state potential impacts (currently only 12 states' impacts potential have been analyzed...) And there is more on policy options as well. Very thought provoking. | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA < < ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 10 16:37:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA07404 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:37:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA21057; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:22:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:18:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20729 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:18:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20723 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:18:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Alisa (usr0a58.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.58]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA08570; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:28:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980810162937.006e2424@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:29:37 -0400 To: From: Danny Sagan Subject: GBlist: Exterior Trim Substitutes Cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4073 Hey there ! Anyone out there ever used a composite recycled content lumber product to construct a railing? I am working with some people bulding a ramp for our historic town library and we are looking for a product to use for the railings- Ideally we want to use something that comes in white and doesn't need painting- any suggestions- Thanks- Danny Sagan- Randolph Ctr- VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 10 21:45:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA11479 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:45:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA04444; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:28:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:24:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA04087 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA04083 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:23:58 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id ESTMa03745; Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:32:55 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <18b2dd87.35cf9f48@aol.com> Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:32:55 EDT To: dsagan@sover.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Exterior Trim Substitutes Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4074 Let's broaden Danny's question to good exterior trim substitutes generally. We just tried GP Prime Trim for the first time. It dimpled every time we drove a nail in it. My crew would rebel if we used "that cardboard crap" again. Is there anything good out there? Is there anything that will hold paint better than wood and can get one of Cabot's extended paint warranties? Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 11 08:41:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA19116 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:41:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA20448; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:21:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20041 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:21:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20037 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA29013 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:30:45 -0400 Message-id: <4215411@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 11 Aug 98 08:31:11 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Exterior Trim Substitutes To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4075 Hardie was supposed to be coming out with a fibercement trim line. Any news yet of this? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 11 09:27:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21081 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:27:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22385; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:12:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:08:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22053 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:08:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bsa-net.com ([199.218.113.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22048 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:08:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vwh5.concourse.com (vwh5.concourse.com [206.244.123.5] (may be forged)) by mail.bsa-net.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA21274 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:14:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by vwh5.concourse.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDC509.4A7374E0@vwh5.concourse.com>; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:20:33 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDC509.4A7374E0@vwh5.concourse.com> From: "Lane J. Beougher" To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Interior Appropriations Bill Amendments Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:20:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA22049 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4076 Hey folks, Got a letter from my rep yesterday and thought I'd pass it along. I was surprised that he voted for the Fox-Scaggs amendment. I guess it must have been the impassioned e-mail I sent him. I sent a thank-you e-mail Friday. Lane J. Beougher, AIA, CCS Braun & Steidl Architects, Inc. 234 North Fifth Street Columbus, Ohio 43215 614.224.9555 Voice 614.224.1506 Fax LBeougher@BSA-net.com "August 6, 1998 Dear Mr. Beougher: Thank you for contacting me with your concerns. I appreciate this opportunity to correspond with you. As you may know, the Interior Appropriations bill, H.R. 4193, was passed by the House on July 23, 1998. This legislation provides funding for various functions within the Department of the Interior, including the National Park Service, the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), and the Fish and Wildlife Service, as well as various energy conservation programs within the Department of Energy. This year's legislation provides $630,250,000 for energy conservation programs such as building equipment and materials research and development, and building systems design. This funding level is $18,527,000 more than last year's appropriation. During the debate on H.R. 4193, Congressman David Skaggs (D-CO) offered an amendment to provide an additional $40 million for energy conservation programs, including $10 million for building technology programs. Although I voted in favor of this amendment, it was defeated by a vote of 213-212. However, Congressman Ralph Regula (R-OH), Chairman of t! he Interior Appropriations Subcommittee offered an amendment to increase funding for the energy conservation account by $45 million. Mr. Regula's amendment was accepted by voice vote. The energy conservation program of the Department of Energy funds cooperative research and development projects aimed at sustaining economic growth through more efficient energy use. In addition, weatherization assistance for low-income Americans is provided through the energy conservation program. Rest assured, I will continue to monitor funding for the energy conservation account as the House and Senate work out the final details of fiscal year 1999 Interior Appropriations legislation. Again, thank you for taking the time to share your views with me. I will be sure to keep your concerns in mind as the 105th Congress continues with legislative business. Sincerely, John R. Kasich Representative to Congress JRK:baj" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 11 15:54:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA28526 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:54:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10815; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:34:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10391 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:33:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10385 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:33:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id MAA32423 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:43:48 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 11 Aug 1998 12:42:06 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: Re: Exterior Trim To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA10387 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4077 Fred and Danny, There's what looks to me a good breakdown of non-wood alternatives at: http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/features.html The fellow there who writes most of the articles, Paul Fisette, is a contributor to Fine Homebuilding. I'd be curious whether you construction professionals out there have any substantive arguments with any of his many articles. Also, I wonder if any of you know of other web sites similiar to this UMass one; sites, that is, which contain nice, tightly written overviews of current alternatives in building practices? Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 11 16:14:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA28865 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:14:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12249; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:59:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:55:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA11773 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:55:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11761; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:55:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip191.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.191]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA16285; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:04:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980811201530.0074dd34@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:15:30 -0400 To: martin.bakowski@mci2000.com, nyscaars@aol.com, captree14@aol.com, gfx-ch@email.msn.com, pierce1@bnl.gov, capli@igc.apc.org, jloper@ase.org, IMSHAPIRO@aol.com, 103332.712@CompuServe.COM, gosolar@hamptons.com, mjclarch@aol.com, dewein.bcap@internetmci.com, pps@mailgate.nyserda.org, G_Thomas@CompuServe.COM, inensys@aol.com, nrgwise@ulster.net, townem@nimo.com, cec.dti.net@mindspring.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: GBlist: Net-Metering in Greenport Cc: ee-building@crest.org, achpa@dis.anl.gov Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA11762 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4078 On August 14th, 1998, New York State Governor George A. Pataki will come to 511 Carpenter Street, Greenport, on the North Fork of Long Island, to sign into law Assembly Bill 11252. Introduced by Senator Marcellino and Assemblyman Englebright and passed on June 12, 1998 -- this bill clarifies the tax credit portion of the 'net-metering' bill (Senate A5400) which the Governor signed last fall and revises provisions providing for a tax credit for homeowners who install solar electric generating systems. (The formula used in the original bill to calculate the applicable tax credit inadvertently reduced the benefit available to homeowners who install smaller solar electric generating systems). The 3.5 peak kilowatts (kWp) of photvoltaics on 511 Carpenter Street is a building integrated PV system. 280 Sunslates™, made by Atlantis Energy, Inc., also function as roofing tiles, making up the ‘weatherskin' of the building, and supply 2/3's of the electrical needs of the Dougherty-Johnson household and of the offices of North Fork Retrofit, Frazer Dougherty's building performance and energy service company. Installed in mid-April of this year, it is the first, and presently the only, grid intertied solar electric system under New York State's net-metering bill. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 11 16:16:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA28885 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:16:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12546; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:01:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:57:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA11971 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:57:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11960 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:57:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA01064 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:06:35 -0400 Message-id: <4221497@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 11 Aug 98 16:07:27 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Exterior Trim To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA11963 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4079 --- You wrote: The fellow there who writes most of the articles, Paul Fisette, is a contributor to Fine Homebuilding. I'd be curious whether you construction professionals out there have any substantive arguments with any of his many articles. --- end of quote --- I have always thought a lot of Paul Fisette's thinking and writing. He combines his building background with good knowledge of the science involved. Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 11 20:56:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA03598 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:56:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23909; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:40:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:37:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA23603 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:36:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA23599 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.7] (blf7.acadia.net [205.217.217.7]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA20469 for ; Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:46:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:46:22 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Exterior Trim Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4080 I have used both of Georgia Pacific's trim products with decent results. Primelock is their finger-jointed pine product and Primetrim is their composite product (locally known as "bendy-board"). In both cases, you will not get great results if you treat the product as if it were normal sawn lumber. I think that we develop an intuition for a product through years of use, and it will take time to develop an intuition for what these products can and can't do. I first-coat paint both products before installing, and then second coat with high-quality paint as soon as possible. With Primetrim, I drill pilot holes for any fasteners within 2 inches of an end. I use only stainless steel ringshank nails. I caulk all joints with PL5200, a marine adhesive. On my own home, these products are holding up well, and show my limitations as a carpenter, but no more so than the pine trim I have on older sections of the house. On clients' jobs, where we have the benefit of some very skilled craftsmen, both products are totally satisfactory - provided that they are painted well and early. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 12 14:49:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA17512 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:49:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03755; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:34:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:28:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03232 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:28:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA03216 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:28:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.22] (blf22.acadia.net [205.217.217.22]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA29023 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:38:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:38:07 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: School ventilation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4081 We're designing a small, four-classroom building for a Waldorf School. Our reading of ASHRAE is that we should ventilate the classrooms at 15 cfm per occupant. We do this in assembly spaces, but the duration of occupancy is shorter. We're concerned about the energy cost of this much ventilation for so many hours of the day. Of course, we expect to use heat recovery ventilation. Other options might be solar preheat of makeup air (Solarwall or similar idea), or earth-connected makeup air preheat, such as an earth tube (we're very wary of the potential for mold growth with this option). Would anyone care to offer comments or suggestions? If anyone is offended by our asking for professional advice without paying for it, please accept our apologies. Thanks. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 12 14:52:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA17624 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:52:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA04095; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:37:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:33:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03635 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:33:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA03624 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:33:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.22] (blf22.acadia.net [205.217.217.22]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA29324 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:43:02 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:42:51 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: "Natural" Refrigeration Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4082 We just received a brochure about an intriguing product. Called "Natural Cool", it's a stainless steel unit that delivers cool, filtered ambient air to walk-in and reach-in coolers, whenever the outside temperature is cold enough to chill the compartment. The manufacturer claims energy savings, savings on compressor wear and tear, and filtration which meets or exceeds all U.S. health code and food safety standards. Does anyone have direct experience with this product? Anyone seeking more info could contact Natural Cool in Newport, VT, USA at 1-800-258-5665, fax: 802-334-2383, email: natcool@together.net. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 12 16:03:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA18586 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 16:03:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08104; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:47:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:43:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA07759 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:43:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07755 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:43:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DLGQSFG3; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:52:49 EDT To: doughf@MINDSPRING.COM, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:54:33 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Net-Metering in Greenport Message-ID: <19980812.155252.6622.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <1.5.4.32.19980811201530.0074dd34@pop.mindspring.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-7,9-17 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4083 Frazier, You mentioned the product Sun Slates. I have a gentleman here who owns a large roofing business. He is looking to get a dealership for a PV roofing shingle and has not had any success getting a response from companies. He is prepared to build a sustainable demonstration house and have me do the interior. Can you supply the contact information for the company that makes Sun Slates and any contact person you can recommend. Thanks for any help. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL see our web page www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 12 16:16:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA18846 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 16:16:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA08937; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 16:01:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:57:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA08577 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:57:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA08570 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:57:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.254.3.164] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:11:24 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Net-Metering in Greenport Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:08:40 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Beverly A. Weiter" , , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1309195010-511074@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4084 Beverly I just heard that United Solar is now shipping their version of the PV shingle. They also have an architectural standing seam metal version. Both Atlantis and Uni-solar (along with a few others) can be found in the REDI database by searching for "photovoltaic roofing". Bruce Beverly A. Weiter said: >Frazier, > >You mentioned the product Sun Slates. I have a gentleman here who owns a >large roofing business. He is looking to get a dealership for a PV >roofing shingle and has not had any success getting a response from >companies. He is prepared to build a >sustainable demonstration house and have me do the interior. > >Can you supply the contact information for the company that makes Sun >Slates and any contact person you can recommend. > >Thanks for any help. > >Beverly Weiter >Environs Interiors >Boca Raton, FL ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 12 17:32:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA20945 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13123; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:17:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:13:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA12822 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:13:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA12818 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:13:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from together.net (dial-67-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.67]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04726; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:23:14 -0400 Message-ID: <35D207BF.C6DFBB4F@together.net> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:23:11 -0400 From: Tom Anderson Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: School ventilation References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------8E3B3304552EEA527B61F4DA" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4085 --------------8E3B3304552EEA527B61F4DA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David: Here is an inexpensive idea I have employed in many commercial and institutional applications, though I have not specifically applied one yet for school classrooms. Install a good quality occupancy sensor in the classroom to enable ventilation. Best if fully integrated with the school energy management system if applicable. When occ sensor staus is ON, ventilation is enabled. Otherwise, ventilation is OFF. The occ sensor time delay will, of course, continue after everyone leaves for the 5-10 minute time delay, doing a little purging. If EMS is on site, connect occ input to local EMS controller. The occ sensor status combined with thestandard EMS scheduled occupancy can enable tyou to create three occupancy modes. Occupied Mode, with ventilation enabled and occupied temperature setpoints maintained; Standby Mode, with occ sensor off with ventilation disabled but with EMS schedule ON to maintain occupied temperature setpoints (or even a seperate Standby temperature setpoint for a slightly widened deadband between heating and cooling setpoints); Unoccupied Mode, with occ sensor off, ventilation disabled and unoccupied temperature setpoints maaintained. This conforms to most codes, which require ventilation only when occupied. One nice aspect of occ sensors is that the room will automatically go into Occupied Mode should someone use the room unexpectedly during evenings or weekends. No over-ride buttons to push or facility maintenance to call. In my experience, in hospitals, people simply do not use manual over-ride buttons on the thermostats. This solves that problem too. I have done much, much more with occ sensors applied to central Variable Air Volume systems, even going so far as to create true, real-time demand based ventilation, based on the actual niumber of people in the building, based on occ sensor feedback. You may or may not want to include lighting control with the occ sensor, depending on application. The ventilation savings alone by shutting ventilation off when not needed via occ sensor will usually justify the occ sensor installation without lighting interface. I have had very good results with Watt Stopper occ sensors. Tom Anderson South Burlington, Vermont, USA David M. Foley wrote: > We're designing a small, four-classroom building for a Waldorf School. Our > reading of ASHRAE is that we should ventilate the classrooms at 15 cfm per > occupant. We do this in assembly spaces, but the duration of occupancy is > shorter. We're concerned about the energy cost of this much ventilation > for so many hours of the day. Of course, we expect to use heat recovery > ventilation. Other options might be solar preheat of makeup air (Solarwall > or similar idea), or earth-connected makeup air preheat, such as an earth > tube (we're very wary of the potential for mold growth with this option). > Would anyone care to offer comments or suggestions? If anyone is offended > by our asking for professional advice without paying for it, please accept > our apologies. Thanks. > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ --------------8E3B3304552EEA527B61F4DA Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David:

Here is an inexpensive idea I have employed in many commercial and institutional applications, though I have not specifically applied one yet for school classrooms.

Install a good quality occupancy sensor in the classroom to enable ventilation.  Best if fully integrated with the school energy management system if applicable.

When occ sensor staus is ON, ventilation is enabled.  Otherwise, ventilation is OFF.  The occ sensor time delay will, of course, continue after everyone leaves for the 5-10 minute time delay, doing a little purging.

If EMS is on site, connect occ input to  local EMS controller.  The occ sensor status combined with thestandard EMS scheduled occupancy can enable tyou to create three occupancy modes.

Occupied Mode, with ventilation enabled and occupied temperature setpoints maintained; Standby Mode, with occ sensor off  with ventilation disabled but with EMS schedule ON to maintain occupied temperature setpoints (or even a seperate Standby temperature setpoint for a slightly widened deadband between heating and cooling setpoints); Unoccupied Mode, with occ sensor off, ventilation disabled and unoccupied temperature setpoints maaintained.

This conforms to most codes, which require ventilation only when occupied.

One nice aspect of occ sensors is that the room will automatically go into Occupied Mode should someone use the room unexpectedly during evenings or weekends. No over-ride buttons to push or facility maintenance to call.

In my experience, in hospitals, people simply do not use manual over-ride buttons on the thermostats.  This solves that problem too.

I have done much, much more with occ sensors applied to central Variable Air Volume systems, even going so far as to create true, real-time demand based ventilation, based on the actual niumber of people in the building, based on occ sensor feedback.

You may or may not want to include lighting control with the occ sensor, depending on application.  The ventilation savings alone by shutting ventilation off when not needed via occ sensor will usually justify the occ sensor installation without lighting interface.

I have had very good results with Watt Stopper occ sensors.

Tom Anderson
South Burlington, Vermont, USA
 
 

David M. Foley wrote:

We're designing a small, four-classroom building for a Waldorf School.  Our
reading of ASHRAE is that we should ventilate the classrooms at 15 cfm per
occupant.  We do this in assembly spaces, but the duration of occupancy is
shorter.  We're concerned about the energy cost of this much ventilation
for so many hours of the day.  Of course, we expect to use heat recovery
ventilation.  Other options might be solar preheat of makeup air (Solarwall
or similar idea), or earth-connected makeup air preheat, such as an earth
tube (we're very wary of the potential for mold growth with this option).
Would anyone care to offer comments or suggestions?  If anyone is offended
by our asking for professional advice without paying for it, please accept
our apologies.  Thanks.

David Foley
Holland and Foley Building Design
232 Beech Hill Road
Northport, Maine USA 04849
p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net

______________________________________________________________________
This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST <www.crest.org>
Environmental Building News <www.ebuild.com> and Oikos <www.oikos.com>
For  instructions send  e-mail to  greenbuilding-request@crest.org.
______________________________________________________________________

  --------------8E3B3304552EEA527B61F4DA-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 12 19:02:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA00861 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 19:02:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14871; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:54:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14548 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14544 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 17:53:39 -0400 (EDT) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id GAKKa20769; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:02:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9b67420e.35d210f6@aol.com> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:02:28 EDT To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: School ventilation Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4086 I believe your reading of ASHRAE 62 is correct. I recommend installing sufficient capacity for 15 CFM per person (you will need it to avoid stuffiness when classes are full, for sure), and then use some way of cutting it back during lower occupancy. Many HRV's have high/low fan speeds. Another option is to use a timer (cycle it on and off). And a third option is to use a CO2 switch. Try to make it something that can be understood by the teachers/maintenance people - calibrate the timer with a sign in big letters in "number of people in the room", and likewise if you use the high/low speed option. The CO2 switch should work well, but is a more costly option, and there is the question of whether it needs to be calibrated periodically. (My CO2 sensor does seem to "drift".) Good luck. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 108 S. Albany St. Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 13 00:55:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA09430 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA29068; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:39:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:35:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA28768 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:34:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA28761 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:34:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.142]) by www.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 5153700 ; Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:58:03 -0800 Message-ID: <35D26E96.8FB164AC@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:41:58 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: School ventilation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4087 I also recommend the 15 cfm as a min. The economics of interior spaces that deal with children can be misleading, there should (especially with steiner as a backdrop be a somewhat larger vision). The problem with occupancy sensors is that the spaces are not just providing air to occupants they are also venting the materials as a precursor to occupancy. It is difficult to control the products and materials that make their way into public spaces i.e cleaning products, etc. Many of these materials will periodically require a higher rate so ideally a system should be capable of a greater capacity. I've noticed that the larger maintenance/renewal items of such buildings are often left to a week before school starts again with the result being incredible buildups of toxins. As a last word it should be mentioned that buildings that house cows require 6 air changes/hr for cows to maintain some semblance of health. I think 15 cfm in such a building would fall short of 1 change. I think the two most interesting options on heat recovery are either the solar-wall preheat or if radiant heat is being looked at an air to water heat recovery system. A good modeling of passive air flows is also important. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. David M. Foley wrote: > We're designing a small, four-classroom building for a Waldorf School. Our > reading of ASHRAE is that we should ventilate the classrooms at 15 cfm per > occupant. We do this in assembly spaces, but the duration of occupancy is > shorter. We're concerned about the energy cost of this much ventilation > for so many hours of the day. Of course, we expect to use heat recovery > ventilation. Other options might be solar preheat of makeup air (Solarwall > or similar idea), or earth-connected makeup air preheat, such as an earth > tube (we're very wary of the potential for mold growth with this option). > Would anyone care to offer comments or suggestions? If anyone is offended > by our asking for professional advice without paying for it, please accept > our apologies. Thanks. > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 13 08:12:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA12461 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA08419; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:56:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:51:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA08174 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:51:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA08170 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:51:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA05306 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:01:08 -0400 Message-id: <4239651@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 13 Aug 98 08:01:14 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: School ventilation To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4088 Hello David - I spent a fair bit of time looking into this for the VT Law School new classroom building. I'm pretty convinced that the way to go is enthalpic heat recovery (recovery of both heat and moisture) because it keeps the winter RH up. Four classrooms would be 1200 - 2400 CFM, depending on the number of occupants, and there are manufacturers who make them in these sizes (Venmar for one.) If you get into larger machines (Semco, Governair) you get what seems to be better dessicant technology, but your size is probably too small. You could try earth tube preheat as a way of avoiding defrost, Only use it in the coldest three months or so, when the chance of condensation is probably nil, because the outdoor air has so little moisture. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 13 08:26:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA12713 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:26:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08906; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:10:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:07:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA08648 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:07:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from orford (orford.valley.net [198.115.160.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA08644 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:07:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme.valley.net [198.115.160.11]) by orford (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA05462 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:17:07 -0400 Message-id: <4239804@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 13 Aug 98 08:17:13 EDT From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: School ventilation To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id IAA08645 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4089 --- You wrote: As a last word it should be mentioned that buildings that house cows require 6 air changes/hr for cows to maintain some semblance of health. I think 15 cfm in such a building would fall short of 1 change. --- end of quote --- Typical classrooms have peak occupancies of 20-30 ft2 per person. 30 kids in a 1000 ft2 room wih 9 ft ceiling height and 450 cfm is 3 AC/H. At the VT Law School, we have 100 seat rooms, 2000 CFM, 14 ft height, about 1900 ft2 - 4.5 AC/H. I should have added about enthalpic recovery - in buildings which need cooling, enthalpic recovery greatly reduces the size of th cooling system. In VT, this amounts to slightly over 2 tons/1000 CFM. This pretty much paysfor the recovery device! Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 13 09:20:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13228 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:20:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10745; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:04:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:59:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA10335 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:58:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10330 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:58:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.50]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3096600 ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:12:44 EDT Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980813085948.0068fcd8@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:59:48 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: School Ventilation In-Reply-To: <199808130600.CAA01268@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4090 >David Foley wrote: We're designing a small, four-classroom building for a Waldorf School. Our >reading of ASHRAE is that we should ventilate the classrooms at 15 cfm per >occupant. We do this in assembly spaces, but the duration of occupancy is >shorter. We're concerned about the energy cost of this much ventilation >for so many hours of the day. Of course, we expect to use heat recovery >ventilation. Other options might be solar preheat of makeup air (Solarwall >or similar idea), or earth-connected makeup air preheat, such as an earth >tube (we're very wary of the potential for mold growth with this option). >Would anyone care to offer comments or suggestions? You should have the ability to adjust the amount of ventilation air depending upon the people load. You can do this with CO2 sensors or a simple switch that changes the ventilation rate by modulating a damper. At a theater in Philadelphia we recommended the latter. There is one ventilation rate for rehearsals, stage work, etc. and another for a full theater. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 13 10:05:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA13837 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:05:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12357; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:46:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:42:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12102 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12093 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.137.73.69] (henyusr0-a05.herd.tds.net [208.137.73.69]) by mail.tds.net (8.8.5/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA05644; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:52:34 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199808130600.CAA01268@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:53:11 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: GBlist: Re: School ventilation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4091 David, Regarding you inquiry about ventilating a school without too much energy loss: I have been investigating heat recovery ventilators (HRV's) recently, and the major brands all have optional controls which can turn the units on and off depending on factors such as humidity or CO2 or various timed settings. This might be easier than hooking them up to occupancy sensors as suggested by Tom Anderson. They also seem to all have at least a 70% efficiency so that you're not really going to be loosing that much energy even when they are on. Two brands which look good to me are both out of Canada (although there are plenty of others which might suit your needs just as well). VanEE by Venmar 1-800-567-3855 Lifebreath by Nutech 519-457-1904 (Ontario) or 513-439-6676 (Ohio) They've both been very helpful at answering my questions about their products. Chris Neurath cneurath@tds.net (note new address) ---------------- Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:38:07 -0400 From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: School ventilation ... We're concerned about the energy cost of this much ventilation for so many hours of the day. Of course, we expect to use heat recovery ventilation.... David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 13 10:08:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA13856 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:08:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12781; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:53:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:49:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12454 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12450 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:48:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.137]) by www.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 5241200 ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:19:14 -0800 Message-ID: <35D2F078.946AFCA6@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 06:56:08 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: School ventilation References: <4239804@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4092 Hi Marc Sorry I should have done some calculations before I stuck my hoof in it. What I was responding to was my experience with Waldorf schools where the student occupancy would probably be half what you mention (with a lower number being used for calculation) and the budget (both capital and operating) might also be half. My concern is that buildings that house kids should probably find economy in structure and finishes rather than mechanics. With kids becoming increasingly sensitized the school environment is quite a toxic load. From parents and buses dropping off kids and leaving their motors running in parking lots adjacent to classrooms to what typically constitutes durable finishes these are not good environments. Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > --- You wrote: > As a last word it should be mentioned that buildings that house cows require 6 > air changes/hr for cows to maintain some semblance of health. I think 15 cfm in > such a building would fall short of 1 change. > --- end of quote --- > > Typical classrooms have peak occupancies of 20-30 ft2 per person. 30 kids in a 1000 ft2 room wih 9 ft ceiling height and 450 cfm is 3 AC/H. At the VT Law School, we have 100 seat rooms, 2000 CFM, 14 ft height, about 1900 ft2 - 4.5 AC/H. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 13 10:46:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14709 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:46:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14765; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:31:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:25:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14422 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:25:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14417 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:25:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DLJQZXGZ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:35:24 EDT To: hvac@together.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:29:53 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: School ventilation Message-ID: <19980813.103519.6566.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <35D207BF.C6DFBB4F@together.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-9 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4093 Tom, Question - Do these and natural daylighting systems seem applicable to hot (a/c) climates like S. Florida, S. Texas, & Arizona? Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 13 11:18:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA15162 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:18:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16390; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:03:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:55:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15887 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:55:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eei.org (mail.eei.org [204.254.108.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15883 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:55:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WPDomain-Message_Server by eei.org with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:59:26 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:54:23 -0400 From: "Harvey Sachs" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: dmfoley@acadia.net Subject: GBlist: Re: School Ventilation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAA15884 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4094 David M. Foley asks for suggestions. Here are a few that may be useful to many of you with large-building practices. 1) Avoid earth tubes. Foley mentions potential for mold growth. Anytime the inside surface of the tube is at lower temperature than dew point temp of outside air, you will get condensation. Unless the outside air inlet is filtered, the condensation will trap dust, pollen, etc, and should make a really nice mold mine. In addition, if the earth tube is under negative pressure relative to the soil gases, and if it has any openings (joints, etc), it can serve as a rather effective way to extract soil gases, including radon, from the earth. 2) Be careful when evaluating heat recovery ventilation devices. Work being done for the Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium now strongly suggests that you want to think about load duration before selecting a unit. In particular, units with high static pressure (==> large fan loads) will have low part-load efficiency. Since the number of full-load hours/year is rather small in most climates, equipment selection can greatly impact cost of compliance. 3) I am not an expert on ASHRAE 62-89. However, some of the folks involved in the process are looking, long-term, for reconsideration of the 15 cfm/person rule for schools. In most areas of most schools, source strengths are low, and less ventilation may give adequate performance (At one ASHRAE forum on 62-1989 recently, it seemed to one speaker that volatiles from dry markers were one of the last "big" sources). 4) Please remember that almost anything you do will be an improvement over most (?) existing schools. The "normative" system seems to have been 2-pipe unit ventilators, generally with the outside air intake frozen closed. 5) As with anything else in which failure can mean expensive litigation, if you choose to deviate from 62-1989, better make sure your client knows exactly what you are doing, and why. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 13 12:27:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16168 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:27:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20488; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:12:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:06:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19856 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:06:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay2.smtp.psi.net (relay2.smtp.psi.net [38.8.188.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19845 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:06:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [149.103.1.200] (helo=mailgate.nyserda.org) by relay2.smtp.psi.net with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) for greenbuilding@crest.org id 0z703E-00072B-00; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:16:32 -0400 Received: from ccMail by mailgate.nyserda.org (ccMail Link to SMTP R6.01.01) id AA903024984; Thu, 13 Aug 98 12:16:26 -0500 Message-Id: <9808139030.AA903024984@mailgate.nyserda.org> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.01.01 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 98 12:15:08 -0500 From: "Craig Kneeland" To: Subject: GBlist: School ventilation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4095 Based on work we've done in schools, I'd suggest using controls for ventilation in areas like the cafeteria, auditorium and gymnasium. The administration folks I've talked with say that the classrooms are occupied 80-85% of the day. You should consider radon as well when looking at earth-coupled make-up air. Finally, I'm hoping that school children have more control than the cows... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 13 12:45:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16441 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:45:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21553; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:30:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:25:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21212 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:25:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay2.smtp.psi.net (relay2.smtp.psi.net [38.8.188.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21207 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [149.103.1.200] (helo=mailgate.nyserda.org) by relay2.smtp.psi.net with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) for greenbuilding@crest.org id 0z70LL-0000y2-00; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:35:16 -0400 Received: from ccMail by mailgate.nyserda.org (ccMail Link to SMTP R6.01.01) id AA903026105; Thu, 13 Aug 98 12:35:09 -0500 Message-Id: <9808139030.AA903026105@mailgate.nyserda.org> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.01.01 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 98 12:33:49 -0500 From: "Craig Kneeland" To: Subject: GBlist: school ventilation, continued MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4096 Another problem we've found in schools throughout the state is HVAC systems sized as though each space in the school is fully occupied 100% of the time. In one case, the boilers in a school with 800 occupants were originally sized to meet ventilation requirements for 3550. We "negotiated" down to 2200 occupants, which saved the school $40,000 in first costs for the boilers. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 13 14:24:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18102 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:24:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26782; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:04:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26399 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:04:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26388 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:04:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.26] (blf26.acadia.net [205.217.217.26]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA02715 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:14:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:14:30 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Re: School Ventilation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4097 Wow! Thanks to everyone who gave so generously of their time and expertise to help us with this problem. I'm continually amazed at what a great group of people participate in this list. Thanks again. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 13 17:29:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21263 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:29:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA04593; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:14:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:09:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04157 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:08:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA04153 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:08:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000011980 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:16:02 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Aug 98 16:27:38 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re(2): GBlist: School ventilation To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5379688.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4098 Yes, Beverly natural daylighting systems are applicable in hot climates, the method is to have vertical glass vs horizontal skylight. This also gives an opportunity to diffuse the light. Glass ideally would face North to avoid heat gain. The architecture firm in North Carolina, Innovative Design, Inc. has designed and monitered performance in several schools with wonderful results on grades, student health, behavior etc. Sue Barnett Green Building Program Austin Texas -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 13 18:53:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA22441 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07900; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:38:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:33:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA07630 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:33:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from neptune.imagen.net (neptune.imagen.net [204.244.138.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA07624 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 18:33:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.244.138.203] (204.244.138.203 [204.244.138.203]) by neptune.imagen.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2232.9) id Q5ZV7JR1; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:45:26 -0700 X-Sender: elizwhite@mail.imagen.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:42:27 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: elizwhite@saltspring.com (Elizabeth White) Subject: GBlist: EarthFEST Announcement Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4099 EarthFEST'98, Pacific Northwest Appropriate Technology festival covers food, energy, shelter, transportation, water, waste, and sustainable communities. DATE: August 22 & 23 LOCATION: Courtenay Fairgrounds, Vancouver Island, BC COST: $12 Cdn for weekend pass, camping $5 per night WEBSITE has full program, exhibitors, workshops: http://www.island.net/~erthfest SPEAKERS include Richard Kadulski, John Salmen, Meror Krayenhoff, Guy Dauncey, Michael Linton. Great networking opportunity! More info, call 250 537-2616 or email: earthfest@saltspring.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 14 01:01:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA27213 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 01:01:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA19197; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:45:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:41:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA18887 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:41:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA18875 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:41:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000012110 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:48:26 -0500 Date: Fri, 14 Aug 98 00:00:07 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: GBlist: Pureon? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5380267.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4100 We recently heard of a "new" freon replacement called Pureon or Pure-on. I'm curious as to the stats on it. It's certainly more expensive. Does it perform as well? Is it really more environmentally friendly, or is it greenwash? Any experience or feedback? Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 14 09:50:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02123 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01963; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:30:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA01591 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f59.hotmail.com [207.82.251.193]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01581 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:30:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 10247 invoked by uid 0); 14 Aug 1998 13:39:45 -0000 Message-ID: <19980814133945.10246.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.11.37.32 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 06:39:44 PDT X-Originating-IP: [208.11.37.32] From: "Susanne Machler" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Used Solar Panels and arrays Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 06:39:44 PDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4101 Hello there... I am a silent lstener to this newsgroup, and have been amazed at the amounts of information disseminated freely here!!Hats off to everyone. I am a homesteader with a few acres here in the Caribbean and have been more and more looking into ways of obtaining some used solar panels or entire arrays better yet even whole PV systems that have been outsized etc. Searching on the web has been a hard and dusty dry road. Is there anyone out there who knows of web resources, exchanges and or persons or companies that would be interested in such a deal?? I would be very grateful for any help. Thanks in avance, Sue Maechler. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 14 14:20:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA07108 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15264; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:05:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:01:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14951 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:01:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from onyx.adlittle.com (onyx.adlittle.com [161.22.248.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14945 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:00:58 -0400 (EDT) From: barbour.edward@adlittle.com Received: from ccMail by onyx.adlittle.com (IMA Internet Exchange 3.01 Enterprise) id 000516F2; Fri, 14 Aug 98 14:13:17 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:24:32 -0400 Message-ID: <000516F2.CE21360@adlittle.com> To: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference@txinfinet.com), greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Pureon? Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="IMA.Boundary.7938113090" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4102 --IMA.Boundary.7938113090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part I believe what you are looking for is Puron, which is R-410A and is being marketed by Carrier in some of their Weathermaker products. This is a replacement for R-22 and is an HFC, so it would be more environmentally friendly. I think Carrier's web page is www.carrier.com. Ed Barbour From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference on 08/14/98 12:00 AM To: greenbuilding@crest.org AT Internet@ADLITTLE-PO@CCMAIL cc: (bcc: Edward Barbour) Subject: GBlist: Pureon? --IMA.Boundary.7938113090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part We recently heard of a "new" freon replacement called Pureon or Pure-on. I'm curious as to the stats on it. It's certainly more expensive. Does it perform as well? Is it really more environmentally friendly, or is it greenwash? Any experience or feedback? Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ --IMA.Boundary.7938113090 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="RFC822 message headers" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Content-Disposition: inline; filename="RFC822 message headers" Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.10]) by onyx.adlittle.com with SMTP (IMA Internet Exchange 3.01 Enterprise) id 0005088C; Fri, 14 Aug 98 00:57:56 -0400 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA19005; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:41:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA18887 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:41:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA18875 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 00:41:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000012110 for ; Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:48:26 -0500 Date: Fri, 14 Aug 98 00:00:07 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: GBlist: Pureon? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5380267.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk --IMA.Boundary.7938113090-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 14 14:57:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA07862 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:57:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA17756; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:42:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:38:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA17244 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:37:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA17229 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:37:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA6-p16.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.144]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA27323 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:47:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35D485EC.1812EDF5@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:46:04 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: pest control Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4103 For the individual that thought I was recommending nuking the ants of the world, here is a kinder, gentler possibility, it might just be the olive branch I've been looking for in my battle with my kitchen fauna. A friend told me about an anti-fouling paint made with Cayenne pepper a couple of years back, he claimed mussels and barnicles hated the hot foot it gave them. An aside, Syracuse University is using an automatic digital Hawk screech to keep seagulls off of their athletic fields, they installed the system last November and haven't seen a gull since. Apparently gull crap is not a real traction enhancer on football fields. _______________________________________________________________________ August 14, 1998 Chili Pepper Is New Pest Repellent A.P. INDEXES: TOP STORIES | NEWS | SPORTS | BUSINESS | TECHNOLOGY | ENTERTAINMENT Filed at 11:37 a.m. EDT By The Associated Press SOCORRO, N.M. (AP) -- Instead of poison or traps, researchers are trying another weapon to get rid of pesky pests -- the world's hottest chili pepper. A repellent developed by the New Mexico Tech Research Foundation in Socorro has tapped the power of the ripe, red habanero pepper, which is 60 times hotter than its fiery cousin, the jalapeno, and 10 times hotter than cayenne. The spicy ingredient is being mixed into caulks, paints, glues and rubber-coating materials, and any creature -- mammal or mollusk -- unfortunate enough to take a nibble will get a sizzling surprise. While the idea sounds like something that Wile E. Coyote might have tried on the Road Runner in the cartoons, tests show real roadrunners have already avoided pecking fence posts treated with the peppery material and rats have shunned cables coated in the substance. ``That would be really great if it works,'' said Lt. Chris Boes at the Coast Guard headquarters in Washington, D.C. A corral post treated with the repellent kept pests at bay for five years, said Darwin Van De Graaff, president of MEDD4, a Santa Fe company that plans to market the pepper repellent. Zebra mussels, the meddlesome mollusks that have invaded water intake pipes and displaced native species in the Great Lakes and Mississippi and Ohio rivers, may be next on the hit list. The Aquatic Research Institute at East Chicago, Ind., is field testing the repellent 20 feet underwater in a mussel-infested Lake Michigan harbor. The U.S. Coast Guard is among those interested in the results. Mussel repellents currently use chlorine, ultraviolet light, sound vibrations and electric currents. If the chili repellent passes EPA and other testing, ``it's going to be a real hot item,'' Boes said. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 14 15:04:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA07964 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:04:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18449; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:45:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA17985 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:45:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA17979 for ; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:45:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.59]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4728900 ; Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:57:23 EDT Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980814144353.00692e10@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:43:53 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: Pureon? Cc: billc@greenbuilder.com In-Reply-To: <199808140600.CAA21108@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4104 Bill Christensen wrote: >We recently heard of a "new" freon replacement called Pureon or Pure->on. I'm curious as to the stats on it. It's certainly more >expensive. Does it perform as well? Is it really more >environmentally friendly, or is it greenwash? Any experience or >feedback? > Puron is the Carrier brand name for R410A. It is an HFC, no harm to the ozone. It is being touted as a replacement for R22 in residential applications. Low flammability and toxicity. Carrier claims there is actually an efficiency gain over R22. It does require higher operating pressures and therefore will require some product redesign. Carrier has come out with a new line of residential (up to 5 ton) systems with SEERs of 12 to 14. There is a good discussion of Puron on Carrier's web site. Visit http://www.carrier.com/. Click on the Puron logo in the left frame and then select the dealer literature (PDF file) in the right frame. We recommended the use of this equipment in a local nature center recently (being installed this month). They insisted that their air conditioning not use any R22 and this alternative came along at just the right time. We insisted that they also lower their cooling loads first and they have retrofitted the lighting and installed window film. Love to hear the opinion of some of the engineers out there about the Carrier Puron line. Sounds to me like beefier equipment. Will this mean greater durability and greater equipment life? ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Aug 15 16:41:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA20954 for ; Sat, 15 Aug 1998 16:41:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28420; Sat, 15 Aug 1998 16:26:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 15 Aug 1998 16:22:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA28067 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 15 Aug 1998 16:21:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28062 for ; Sat, 15 Aug 1998 16:21:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.topher.net (ppp22.topher.net [206.136.138.181]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16445; Sat, 15 Aug 1998 15:17:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199808152017.PAA16445@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: "greenbuilder" , Subject: GBlist: Re:Used Solar Panels and arrays Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 15:32:07 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4105 I've seen used panels listed on the AAA Solar Web page . Here's a current listing: LIQUID SOLAR COLLECTORS - All are copper waterways. low iron tempered glass and aluminum or galvanized insulated enclosure unless otherwise noted. All sizes are nominal. 4' x 8' - $165 to $225. I installed used solar panels on my home. I got them for so little money that I used (2) 4'x8' panels in Dallas, Texas. I can REALLY heat water! I've seen the water return from the roof at 205 deg F in the winter. Paul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 17 09:22:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA08552 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:22:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27027; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:07:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:02:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26800 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:01:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ibmmail.COM (ibmmail.com [204.146.168.193]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26796 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:01:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Jim_Hartzfeld@mail.ifsia.com Received: by ibmmail.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via spool with SMTP id 0900 ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:11:59 EDT Received: from mail.ifsia.com [204.238.192.103] by imxgate.com (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:11:44 EDT Received: by mail.ifsia.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.2 (600.1 3-26-1998)) id 85256663.00488DA4 ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:12:28 -0400 X-Lotus-FromDomain: INTERFACE To: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <85256663.0047A053.00@mail.ifsia.com> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 09:06:30 -0400 Subject: Re: GBlist: Pureon? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4106 I hope folks reply soon with any problems they have had with Puron. I am installing it in a new home as we speak under Carrier's Bryant brand designed to a 14 SEER. Sounds like a great step forward. And yes, we have had to design for the higher pressures. You can send replies direct to me to avoid list clutter. Thanks for any help in advance. Jim Hartzfeld ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 17 11:50:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10776 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04841; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:34:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:30:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04482 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:30:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from essential.essential.org (essential.org [198.4.52.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04473 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:30:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from essential.org (meghan.essential.org [198.4.52.7]) by essential.essential.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00380; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:44:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35D8504D.65E010C7@essential.org> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 11:46:21 -0400 From: Meghan Clancy-Hepburn Reply-To: mch@essential.org Organization: resource conservation alliance X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding list , arlist , EPPnet Subject: GBlist: Build It Recycled Trailer-- appearances in Minnesota Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4107 "BUILD IT RECYCLED TRAILER (BIRT)" August 13 - 16, 1998 in Carlton County; August 27 - 30, 1998 in Lake County* BIRT will be featured at the county fairs in Carlton County and Lake County this month. The 3-room trailer (including kitchen) features recycled content construction and home decor materials. Ring binders in the trailer provide extensive written documentation of product specifications, manufacturer information, and environmental and performance benefits. BIRT was developed and constructed by Building and construction students at Lake Superior College in cooperation with Carlton, Lake and St. Louis Counties and the Western Lake Superior Sanitary District (WLSSD). * BIRT is available for display at educational events within the sponsoring counties by contacting Doug Manthey, WLSSD Solid Waste Program Coordinator 218/722-3336, ext. 230. -- Meghan Clancy-Hepburn Campaigns Director Resource Conservation Alliance P.O. Box 19367 Washington, DC 20036 tel: 202.387.8030 fax: 202.234.5176 email: mch@essential.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 17 12:47:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA11692 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:47:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07383; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:32:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:28:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA07043 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:28:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.grove.ufl.edu (root@mail2.grove.ufl.edu [128.227.8.82]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07039 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:28:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from willow.grove.ufl.edu (root@grove.ufl.edu [128.227.8.13]) by mail2.grove.ufl.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6/1) with ESMTP id MAA02513 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from KibertG2000.cfaa.ufl.edu (p5172.cfaa.ufl.edu [10.5.5.172]) by willow.grove.ufl.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6/1) with SMTP id MAA29456 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:38:40 -0400 (EDT) Comments: grove thinks this came from p5172.cfaa.ufl.edu [10.5.5.172] (hop 0) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980817123842.00b38824@grove.ufl.edu> X-Sender: minou@grove.ufl.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:38:42 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Brad Guy Subject: GBlist: Green Building Materials Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4108 We are putting together a research paper on "eco-labeling" specific to building materials in the US. The one that I know about is the Carpet and Rug Institute "green label". Scientific Certification Systems includes building materials, but is not specifically set up to look at building materials. The FCS and SmartWood labelling includes building materials by default, if a piece of certified lumber happens to be used in construction. Same with AFPA system. Does anyone know of specific materials eco-labeling for construction, either industry-wide or through a construction industry sector like the carpet industry? Thank you for your help. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 17 16:04:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA15084 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:04:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18108; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:48:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:44:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17451 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:43:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17447 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:43:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DLVLTSJX; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:53:47 EDT To: minou@grove.ufl.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 15:53:49 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building Materials Message-ID: <19980817.155351.7046.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19980817123842.00b38824@grove.ufl.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-6 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4109 Other "labeling" include the recycled symbol. Also look into things like "green lights" (EPA), BEES (NRDC), Blue Angel (German recycling), Good Cents (energy) and ISO. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 17 19:51:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA18226 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:51:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28810; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:30:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA28308 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hermes.pressenter.com (hermes.pressenter.com [198.150.192.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA28302 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:29:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.213.111.70] (helo=wayne-s) by hermes.pressenter.com with smtp (Exim 2.01 #1) for greenbuilding@crest.org id 0z8Ysj-0000s6-00; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:40:09 -0500 X-Sender: wdfvag@mail.pressenter.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:40:43 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Wayne D. Federer" Subject: GBlist: Alternative Gutter Materials Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4110 Dear greenbuilding folks,

As a corollary to the inquiry I just sent, "Healthy and 'Green' Exterior Siding (for Northern Climates)", I ask you a similar question: what is the best gutter material?  Does anyone know of and have experience with alternatives to vinyl, aluminum, steel, or copper?  I would be grateful for any pertinent resources.

Thanks.

Sincerely,
Wayne Federer, Ph.D.
Brambleberry Run Associates
767 160th Avenue
New Richmond, WI 54017=A0 (near Minneapolis-St.Paul)
USA
brambleberry@pressenter.com
715-246-2746


P.S. - I'm a former research scientist who has always been interested and involved in environmental issues and projects, now studying to be a baubiology environmental inspector (healthy homes consultant) at the International Institute for Bau-biologie & Ecology (IBE) in Clearwater, FL (http://www.bau-biologieusa.com/).= =A0 The bau-biology approach emphasizes human health over other considerations, but "green" building materials are usually if not always the best route to achieve healthy homes.

{If you're interested in IBE's programs, which I highly recommend, please tell Helmut or Lizzie that I sent you their way!=A0 I will be happy to discuss my experiences with anyone.} ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 17 19:55:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA18283 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29144; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:34:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA28706 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:34:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA28702 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:34:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcoplos@aol.com Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 2RUAa17153; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:43:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9d5ad0d5.35d8c031@aol.com> Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:43:44 EDT To: brambleberry@pressenter.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Alternative Gutter Materials Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4111 Aluminum may not be such a bad choice for gutters because it can be recylcled so easily. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 17 22:45:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20890 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA06180; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:29:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:25:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA05908 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:25:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hermes.pressenter.com (hermes.pressenter.com [198.150.192.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05899 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.213.111.73] (helo=wayne-s) by hermes.pressenter.com with smtp (Exim 2.01 #1) for greenbuilding@crest.org id 0z8bcS-00043i-00; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:35:33 -0500 X-Sender: wdfvag@mail.pressenter.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:36:05 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Wayne D. Federer" Subject: GBlist: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding (for Northern Climates) - Part 1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id WAA05904 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4112 Greetings to all, I'm new to the greenbuilding listserv (except for a brief earlier stint eavesdropping last year).  As I prepare for a new career in consulting, I am also faced with a 25-year-old home with cedar siding that is dearly wanting some tender loving care in northwestern Wisconsin (a highly variable climate).  I want to do the best thing for my family's health as well as the environment, as well as to practice what I will preach!  Therefore I seek and will be grateful for everyone's two cents of advice on the selection of the best material, considering the following factors and any others you may wish to point out: (a) initial cost, materials + labor; (b) maintenance requirements/cost; (c) durability and lifetime; (d) bau-biological health effects for the occupants; environmental impacts ("greenness"); (e) thermal and energy considerations; (f) aesthetics.  {I also include several parenthetical side questions below which I'll also be happy to hear about.}  I hope you will find the following educational, and that you will point out any mistakes that you catch.  And those of you only interested in alternative materials are asked to skip ahead to the end (contained in Part 2, a separate e-mail message).  Or you could jump first to Paul Fisette's article (I highly recommend it) from the Univ. Massachussetts, "Alternatives To Solid Wood Exterior Trim", which is at http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/Alternative_Trim.html.  It appears that the present 12-inch wide by 7/8-inch thick cedar lap siding is too far gone (lots of cracking, checking, cupping, weathering and mold) to economically repair and paint; it will continue falling apart even if it is given a cosmetic overhaul, and at least half of the boards would have to be replaced completely (and hopefully reused to build an outbuilding on our country estate).  {If you do have novel ideas how to rescue the old siding, I would certainly be interested in hearing them.}  I am doing all the research I can on the health and environmental effects of both conventional and alternative siding materials.  (If I get around to it, I may write a magazine article on the results of this survey.)  Here are a few of the materials I have considered (and in many cases rejected on the basis of what I already know): Cedar (conventional lap siding, or possibly plywood sheets with batten board over the intersections): I question the (more often than not?) nonrenewable and/or polluting forestry practices, the high maintenance requirements and limited lifetime, and the nonrenewables and toxins and VOC's generally present in the coatings.  [I'm interested in alternative coating materials such as Weather-Bos available from www.ecoproducts.com, but wonder how well they work.  I'd like to hear about any experiences with / opinions on alternative exterior coatings.]   One builder also mentioned to me that the oils released by cedar may damage some substrate materials.  [Anyone know about this?]  Also, we have experienced considerable damage from wasps eating the wood (they're all around, and one contractor told me this is what is happening).  On the positive side, I do much appreciate the natural look of cedar.  So it is still very much under consideration. Vinyl siding:  For reasons too numerous to go into now, I find vinyl to be a local and global environmental catastrophe - a terrible manufacturing process with awful life cycle characteristics from raw material extraction to disposal!  Just consult Greenpeace (http://www.greenpeace.org/index.shtml, especially http://www.greenpeace. org/~toxics/frame4reps.html) for an only slightly overstated account.  (I don't like to be an alarmist, but an excellent series of ten printed fact sheets on the PVC industry was prepared by Greenpeace International in the Netherlands and might be available from your lnearest office, which you can track down on their web site.)  The best two things I can say about PVC in exterior siding are (1) that most (but possibly not all) of the offgassing pollutants don't go directly into the interior space of the house, and (2) that PVC is nonmagnetic and electrically insulating so will not cause the dire electromagnetic effects that the baubiologists have often found in metal siding products. Steel Siding:  Although economical and extremely durable, steel suffers from a major but little known disadvantage aside from its aesthetics (which some find to be acceptable) and the impacts of iron ore extraction and processing (not to mention the PVC coating that is usually also present in today's products).  Steel found in siding and other materials or furnishings in the home (including steel bedframes) can severely disrupt the localized DC magnetic field from the earth, as well as possibly interfering with our body's sensation of the much smaller amplitude ~7.8 Hz  micropulsations of the geomagnetic field.  Over the course of human evolution, we have evolved to utilize the geomagnetic fields as a cue for our mental and neuroendocrine functioning (the dominant frequency of our brain waves is ~ 10 Hz), and experiements with people in isolation chambers demonstrate dramatic changes in our biorhythms (which are at least partially reversible with addition of artificially generated 8 Hz magnetic fields.  (To learn more about electrobiology, I highly recommend you read the books by Robert O. Becker, The Body Electric and Cross Currents, or take the excellent seminars offered by IBE - see P.S. note at end of this message.)  Furthermore, at least if it's not properly electrically grounded, steel siding will potentially cause the same high exposure to (and shielding of) electric fields as aluminum siding (see below). Aluminum Siding:  This is also economical, but not as durable as steel because it can be damaged by hail storms.  Aside from the debateable aesthetics and high energy and pollution impacts of resource extraction and processing, aluminum siding acts as an antenna to pick up alternating electric fields from power lines, radio and microwaves communications, etc.  There are many chemically sensitive people who have built metal-enclosed houses to avoid chemical exposure, only to begin suffering from electrical hypersensitivity (see, for example, an account at http://www.idcnet.com/~jschultz/es.htm, or The Swedish Association For the Electrically and VDT Injured at http://www.feb.se, or The Electrical Sensitivity Network at http://www.bslnet.com/esn/).  It is very difficult to electrically ground the entire siding installation, for the electrical contact between sheets is often poor due to the presence of an insulating coating on the material; adequate grounding can only be achieved with tedious measures that are generally unknown except to the baubiologist.  Indeed, this whole subject of how and why electric fields are hazardous is very complex and controversial (and not accepted as even plausible by most physicists).  But experienced baubiologists (especially the German master, Wolfgang Maes), can tell you all sorts of stories of dramatic improvements in diverse chronic illnesses when people's electric field exposure is dramatically reduced. In Part II (a second e-mail message due to length restrictions), I will consider less commonly used "alternative materials" I have read about and have begun to learn about.  Thanks for your consideration! Sincerely, Wayne Federer, Ph.D. Brambleberry Run Associates 767 160th Avenue New Richmond, WI 54017  (near Minneapolis-St.Paul) USA brambleberry@pressenter.com 715-246-2746 P.S. - I'm a former research scientist who has always been interested and involved in environmental issues and projects, now studying to be a baubiology environmental inspector (healthy homes consultant) at the International Institute for Bau-biologie & Ecology (IBE) in Clearwater, FL (http://www.bau-biologieusa.com/).  The bau-biology approach emphasizes human health over other considerations, but "green" building materials are usually if not always the best route to achieve healthy homes. {If you're interested in IBE's programs, which I highly recommend, please tell Helmut or Lizzie that I sent you their way!  I will be happy to discuss my experiences with anyone.} P.P.S. - I sent this message earlier this evening using a different e-mail alias and in a single piece that exceeded the 10,000 character limit, so it did not get posted.  Thus you were probably confused by my reference to this message in the followup message that was posted inquiring about Alternative Gutter Materials.  Sorry about the confusion! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 17 22:57:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20987 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:57:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA06886; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:42:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:38:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA06621 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hermes.pressenter.com (hermes.pressenter.com [198.150.192.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06616 for ; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:38:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.213.111.73] (helo=wayne-s) by hermes.pressenter.com with smtp (Exim 2.01 #1) for greenbuilding@crest.org id 0z8bpB-0004Ji-00; Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:48:42 -0500 X-Sender: wdfvag@mail.pressenter.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 21:49:15 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Wayne D. Federer" Subject: GBlist: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding (for Northern Climates) - Part 2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id WAA06618 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4113 In Part 1, I discussed the pros and cons of conventional siding materials. As explained in Part 1, I seek your input on these and other materials to replace existing cedar lap siding. Now I will begin considering the "alternative materials" I have read about and have begun to learn about.  I am beginning to run out of gas, so this section will be greatly expanded in some future version!  Here I will just try to lay out a framework for your input.  And I should mention that there are a few excellent articles in Environmental Building News (EBN), some of them on line at http: //www.ebuild.com/Archives/Product_Reviews/ProductsList.html.  Hardboards.  I'm not sure these materials (such as those made by Masonite, Louisiana Pacific, Werzalit of America, or Smurfit Newsprint Corp.) meet your definition (or mine) of green materials, but they are listed in architect John Hermannsson's excellent 1997 reference book, the Green Building Resource Guide (see the author's web site, www.greenguide.com, or find the book at amazon.com; also available on CD-ROM) primarily because of their supposed durability and long product life cycle.  In at least one case waste products are used as raw materials.  However, many of these materials contain "nasty" thermoset resins, although at least one is claimed to be formaldehyde-free.  Some are available in lengths as lap siding, some in the form of sheets.  Some are available prepainted at the factory.  I read a number of accounts critical of these materials.  (Tradenames include Inner-Seal, Cladwood, and Masonite, among others.)  There is even a "Defective Hardboard Siding Information Center" on the web (http://www.siding.ilsweb.com/Qu estion3.htm) providing information on "why hardboard sidings fail."  Another site of interest is "Siding Inspections by Siding Solutions for Louisiana Pacific Siding and other Composite Siding," at http://www.sidingsolutions.com/.  Without having read extensively, it appears to me that proper installation may tremendously impact the durability of these materials, and I am afraid of them purely on the basis of reliability considerations, ignoring their environmental considerations!  If anyone without a vested interest begs to differ, please correct any misperceptions I may have on the basis of very limited research. Fiber-Cement Composites.  First, let me say that I particularly recommend a good article about using fiber-cement board by a Georgia builder, Jon Carter: http://southface.o rg/home/sfpubs/sfjv198/fiber.html.  Also see what Paul Fisette has to say in his general review of siding materials (see reference above). I personally find this class of materials extremely interesting, and I am seriously considering them.  The most common product in the United States appears to be Hardiplank (siding) or Hardipanel (sheet) manufactured by James Hardie, an Australian company with plants in California, Florida, and Texas.  It has been used for 35 years in Australia, and 10 years in the U.S.  Lots of information is available on the company's web site, http://www.jameshardie.com/usahome.htm (follow their link to "siding").  (Another company with a similar but more expensive product is Eternit of Blandon, PA.  They used to only supply sheet materials, but now they sell Cemplank lap siding.)  EBN had a brief product review in 1993 (Vol. 2, No. 3) entitled "Fiber-cement siding" (not available on line).  The disadvantages mentioned are the high energy costs of both making cement and the autoclaving process, which consume fossil fuels; the high transportation cost due to only limited production facilities (which is becoming less of a problem than it was at the time this article was written); the use of virgin wood fibers imported from New Zealand (which a James Hardie Technical Service rep assured me is no longer the case (although he was unaware that it had ever been).  A James Hardie customer service rep told me that the material is also suitable for northern climates, and indeed I found a distributor located in Vancouver (http://www.regentbuilding.com/hp.html) and found out they opened a new factory (their fourth) just last week in Tacoma, WA.  The EBN review expressed concerns about freeze-thaw stability of the product (since cement does absorb water), but the company has performed studies since then (and a report is being mailed to me) and they are willing to warrantee the material for 50 years even in extreme climates such as mine (where there is a 140 degree F range of temperatures and plenty of snow and freezing rain).  EBN says that Hardiplank is considerably cheaper than cedar siding and retains paint 20-30% better, leading to warrantees of paint jobs for 15-20 years.  It is available in both smooth or wood-textured products, primed and optionally prepainted locally under contract by the distributor (which is much more economical than painting a house after the siding is installed). Hardiplank is made by autoclaving Portland cement, ground sand, and cellulose fiber.  Similar materials containing asbestos instead of cellulose were popular in the 1940's and 1950's.  Several personal critiques are found on the web, including one from a Seattle-based consultant (http://www.soundhome.com/consult/61to70.shtml); two from Colorado at http://csf.Colorado.EDU/cohousing/mar96/0022.html and http://csf.Colorado.EDU/cohousing/mar96/0023.html; several postings and responses on the wonderful AEC InfoCenter Interactive Product Forums (see, for example, http://www.aecinfo.com/forum/wb07/messages/2.html) Finally, machining and installation generates silica dust (a respiratory hazard for the installer, requiring adequate protection).  The dust tends to get inside the saw, too, limiting the lifetime of the motor.  And the material requires a carbide tipped saw.  One must get used to working with it, just like wood or other conventional materials. Some people don't like the look of the material or the fact that it is an "impostor" for wood.  Personally, in the two installations I looked at, I much preferred (probably for this reason) the nontextured product (as compared to the much more popular wood-textured version of the product).  (The same could be said for vinyl or metal siding when it is textured to mimic wood.) Another person on the web feared that the material might become brittle after several decades and might become discolored.  This apparently happened with some of the older, asbestos-containing fiber-cement composites. Autoclaved Aerated Concrete.  An excellent article in EBN ("Autoclaved Aerated Concrete: Is North America Finally Ready?", Volume 5, No. 2 -- March/April 1996) discusses these materials.  (http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Product_Reviews/AAConcrete.html). Hebel is an old German company that has fairly recently penetrated the American market, but almost exclusively in the southeast.  Research reported by EBN suggests that the superior insulating properties of such materials are less of a consideration in northern climates.  These are still interesting materials which I want to learn more about. I just received a packet of information from Hebel Southeast, but I havene't had a chance to study it. So there is a current snapshot of my own research on siding materials.  Obviously, every material has some negative environmental impact, and if I were strting from scratch there are other alternatives that will not (I don't think) be compatible with my existing timber-frame construction.  Please let me know what you think, either via personal e-mail or to the whole list if you think it will be of general interest to everyone.  Thanks for your consideration! Sincerely, Wayne Federer, Ph.D. Brambleberry Run Associates 767 160th Avenue New Richmond, WI 54017  (near Minneapolis-St.Paul) USA brambleberry@pressenter.com 715-246-2746 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 18 07:53:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA25360 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA18992; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:38:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:34:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA18440 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA18432 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:33:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.175] (ka3-175.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.175]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA28572 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:43:58 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 01:01:47 -0400 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Instant Hurricane Roof Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id HAA18437 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4114 Hallo. Awhile back, people were talking about the advantages of a hip roof during a hurricane, and how hip roofs survived Hurricane Iniki well, and gable roofs tended not to. An idea occurred to me the other night. I know that aerodynamic applications can get very significant flow effects out of ridiculously flimsy material, or so it seems. Would it be possible to make "hurricane resisters" which consisted of some sort of light, pole framework and a layer of canvas or somesuch over it? Construct them so that they could be hooked to the gable ends of a house, and put in place quickly, and such things might direct the force of wind over the house rather than into the gable ends. Since it's a light framework and in temporary use, it needn't stop at the eaves as the roof does; it could go all the way to the ground. What do people think? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 18 08:10:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA25615 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:10:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA19504; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:55:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:51:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA19279 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:51:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA19275 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:51:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.173] (rkd45.acadia.net [205.217.217.173]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA18004 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:01:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:01:13 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building Materials Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4115 Quote: >Other "labeling" include the recycled symbol. Also look into things like >"green lights" (EPA), BEES (NRDC), Blue Angel (German recycling), Good >Cents (energy) and ISO. > >Beverly Weiter >Environs Interiors >Boca Raton, FL end of quote What do folks on this list know about ISO labeling and compliance? Any information would be greatly appreciated. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 18 09:49:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA27208 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:49:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23282; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:34:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:30:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22870 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:29:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eypdc04.eypae.com (eypdc04.eypae.com [205.234.22.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22862 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:29:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by eypdc04.eypae.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:41:04 -0400 Message-ID: <7149413C9A5AD01182DC0060971991CEC9E039@eypdc04.eypae.com> From: Peggy White To: greenbuilding@crest.org, dmfoley@acadia.net Subject: RE: GBlist: Green Building Materials Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:41:03 -0400 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4116 Mostly I'm a 'lurker and a learner' here, but sometimes I have something to contribute. One place to start for ISO info is the Underwriter's Labratories, Inc. publication: REGISTERED FIRMS ISO 9000 QS 9000 ISO 14001 1998 DIRECTORY Price U.S.: $16.00 This directory is published twice a year, and is available from UL. (www.ul.com, or 1.800.704.4050) The definitions are as follows: ISO 9000 Series Quality System Standards: "series of international quality system standards". QS 9000 Quality System Requirements: "supplier quality system requirements, published by Ford, Chrysler and General Motors". ...and then the one we're most interested in on the GBList: ISO 14000 Series - Environmental Management System Standards: "designation of a series of international environmental management system standards. The ISO 14001 standard defines a specification standard against which an organization can determine its conformance level. The ISO 14004 standard provides a general guideline for the principles, systems and supporting techniques an organization should consider in setting up or improving a system. ISO 14010, 14011, and 14012 are standards designed to provide guidance in auditing an environmental management system". Firms who prove compliance with the standards are granted a Certificate of Registration from UL, who then do a "continuous assessment audits check of their ongoing compliance". Peggy White, CSI, CCCA Architectural Specifications Writer Einhorn Yaffee Prescott Architecture & Engineering, PC Washington, DC > ---------- > From: dmfoley@acadia.net[SMTP:dmfoley@acadia.net] > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 1998 8:01 AM > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building Materials > > Quote: > >Other "labeling" include the recycled symbol. Also look into things > like > >"green lights" (EPA), BEES (NRDC), Blue Angel (German recycling), > Good > >Cents (energy) and ISO. > > > >Beverly Weiter > >Environs Interiors > >Boca Raton, FL > end of quote > > What do folks on this list know about ISO labeling and compliance? > Any > information would be greatly appreciated. > > > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 18 10:03:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27320 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:03:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23629; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:47:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:44:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23434 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:44:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc513.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23430 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from IEL#u#MAIL-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:55:18 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:54:49 -0400 From: "Arnie Katz" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, brambleberry@pressenter.com Subject: GBlist: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding (for Northern Climates) -Part 1 -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA23431 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4117 For what it's worth: The choice I made for my own house was Southern Yellow Pine, rough one side, nominal 1 X 8, applied horizontally, lapped, over a 3/4" furring strip to provide a rain screen. With no coating what-so-ever. As far as I can tell, coatings are strictly aesthetic. I like the mottled greying of the wood, so that solves that. Coatings (paints, stains, whatever) may provide some protection, but only if they are scrupulously maintained. Otherwise, they seem to trap moisture and cause more problems than they solve. I have three buildings using this material--a community well-house 18 yrs old; a 1-room addition to a trailer that was used as living space, 16 years old; and a house that's been sided (partially) for 7 years. No indications of problems here in the mold and rot belt of North Carolina, where termites and carpenter bees abound. For me, the material is local. And I don't have to re-coat it every few years (a substantial expense and/or pain in the butt). I'm lazy. And I avoid the environmental impacts of the coatings. Based on the 18-year old building, I feel confident I can get at least 40-50 years out of it. At that point, I can remove the siding, sell it to a restauranteur doing a barn wood look, and reside the house. I think I'll be way ahead of the game, both financially and environmentally. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 18 10:32:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27675 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:32:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24092; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:17:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:13:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23906 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:13:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23902 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:13:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 209.42.156.247 by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPSS7; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:30:44 -0400 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDCA91.7C1EBDA0@Walnut.babb.com>; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:18:03 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDCA91.7C1EBDA0@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'David M. Foley'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Green Building Materials Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:18:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAA23903 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4118 << What do folks on this list know about ISO labeling and compliance? Any information would be greatly appreciated. >> You can find more information at http://www.iso14000.net Recently I attended a workshop about ISO 14000 that helped me greatly in the beginning design of an Environmental Management System (EMS) for a new company I work for... The standard provides a comprehensive framework for an EMS with a focus on the ecosystem (rather than only the immediate environment or the neighbor's backyard). Some of the other requirements of the ISO 14000 EMS are: ---Commitment to improvement (continuous) ---Creation of a policy suited to the degree of the company's environmental impact ---Compliance with all required environmental regulations/legislations ---Design of a framework for regular assessment of goals ---Communication to all employees and to the public The ISO 14000 guidelines also cover emergency preparedness and response, record keeping (which is said to be lessened by becoming certified...), training, and reviewing... Seems to be a cohesive and holistic framework. Even if you don't apply for certification, the EMS is a peach. Best Regards, Jillanna Babb-Cheshul Babb Cellular Concrete (Flyash AAC) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 18 10:56:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28018 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25729; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:41:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:36:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24941 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:36:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24931 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:36:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DLXMH6WD; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:44:29 EDT To: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:26:52 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Instant Hurricane Roof Message-ID: <19980818.104438.6630.5.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,7-14 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4119 Spireag, Great idea in theory but, thought not a structural engineer, as one who has lived in S. Florida and through the edges of two hurricanes, I doubt that a canvas structure of any sort could withstand the force of the wind. Furthermore, any edges that would allow the wind to get under them and that would probably not only be the end of your structure but would also create yet another potential projectile. Just my opinion, based on good old horse sense. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 18 10:56:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28019 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25733; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:41:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:36:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24919 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:36:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24900 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:36:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DLXMH64J; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:44:29 EDT To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:44:36 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building Materials Message-ID: <19980818.104438.6630.7.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-10 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4120 David, I have a former partner who is now doing the ISO certification for businesses in N. America. He has a web site: www.iso-9000.com. They do 14000 as well. I am sure Bruce would be willing to answer any questions you might have. Best wishes. Beverly Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 18 12:25:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29897 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:24:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02172; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:09:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:05:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01789 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:05:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01785 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa2-p35.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.35]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA28657 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:15:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35D9A85F.25211089@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:14:23 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: drought and disease Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4121 Another weather story that may just be a precursor to what global warming may have in store for us. _______________________________________________________________________ Filed at 2:17 a.m. EDT By The Associated Press VINH LAM, Vietnam (AP) -- At midday, Vinh Lam looks like a ghost town, the only movement a dust devil swirling in the distance. This, like many villages across central Vietnam, is a place under siege again. But it's not the devastation of the Vietnam War this time -- it's a relentless two-faced enemy that can't be fought face to face. For the second long stretch this year, drought has set in. And this time, it has been accompanied by an outbreak of dengue fever as mosquitoes breed in the stagnant ponds that many rivers have become. ``It is very bad since we have to deal with two epidemics -- hunger and dengue,'' Nguyen Ba Thang, 49, deputy chief of one commune in Vinh Lam, said from a makeshift bed in the town meeting hall, which has been turned into a dengue clinic. ``It is too much to bear. Even if rains come now, we've lost the whole crop. And it is too late to plant now because in October, all this area will be under water'' if the rainy season starts on schedule. Thang's entire family of six has contracted dengue, a mosquito-borne virus that causes high fever, headaches and pain in the joints. His 20-year-old daughter was released last week and was back to tend to her 16-year-old brother. The national Agriculture Department estimates 2.5 million people in 14 provinces are short of water, with 345,000 acres of rice paddies affected. That follows a drought earlier in the year that caused an estimated $385 million in damage to crops nationwide. The El Nino weather phenomenon has largely been blamed for both, although deforestation from slash-and-burn farming has contributed. Much of central Vietnam has had little or no rain for two months, even as the north has been plagued by floods spawned by heavy rains upstream in China. In the worst-hit provinces -- Ha Tinh, Quang Binh and Quang Tri -- there are miles-wide stretches of cracked land that should be filled with lush stretches of rice just turning golden for harvest. With only an average of a half-inch of rain total for July and August, Quang Tri province is suffering what officials say is the worst drought in 90 years and has reported 10,200 dengue cases, most of them in the last three months. Quang Tri already was poor, with the $120 per capita annual income less than half of the national average. Officials say 20 percent of the people go hungry year-round, a figure that has risen to between 50 percent and 60 percent during the drought. All 99 reservoirs are dry after failing to get enough rain in May to reach more than half capacity. Rainfall so far this year is only about 10 percent of the annual average. More than half of the 500,000 residents -- 80 percent of them farmers -- are short of clean water. Three-quarters of the 40,000 acres of rice have been affected, including 25,000 acres that are virtually dead. Although some streams look full, they are full of saltwater, which is deadly to crops. The falling water table has allowed encroachment by the ocean up to 20 miles inland. With no crops to tend, the 5,400 residents of Vinh Lam mostly stay inside to avoid the relentless sun that sends temperatures soaring to nearly 100 degrees every day with no relief in sight. Although it has eased in recent days, the outbreak of dengue has sucked out even more of town's life. It reached epidemic proportions earlier this month, with 121 cases reported in a nine-day stretch. So far, there have been no fatalities. Everyone agrees that things were worse during the war, when Quang Tri was the site of some of the fiercest fighting. Unexploded bombs and artillery shells remain a persistent problem. But the drought and dengue are catching up fast. Farmers recall how happy they were when the delayed onset of the seasonal rains finally began in May, bringing some areas their first substantial preciptitation since last November. The relief was short-lived, and many feel trapped now -- reliant on rice aid from the government and too poor to move elsewhere. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 18 12:35:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00104 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:35:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03013; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:15:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02499 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:15:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lucy.az.com (lucy.az.com [204.201.18.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02490 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:15:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cwebb (seawesta-129.az.com [204.201.18.129]) by lucy.az.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA07674 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980818092622.007a4e30@lucy.az.com> X-Sender: cwebb@lucy.az.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:26:22 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Chris Webb Subject: GBlist: CCA Treated Lumber Alternative Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4122 Hi all, Isn't there a new more environmentally friendly alternative to CCA treated wood? Anyone have ideas about what to specify as an alternative to CCA? Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher J. Webb, EIT "To Provide simple economic Project Engineer solutions to complex environmental 2020 ENGINEERING issues ... to meet future needs" 1911 'C' Street Bellingham, WA 98225 USA (360)671-2020 fax:(360)671-0322 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 18 21:49:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA08401 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 21:49:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA28735; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 21:34:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Aug 1998 21:30:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA28481 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 21:30:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28477 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 21:30:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JOSEPHCH (207-172-245-95.s95.tnt2.sbo.erols.com [207.172.245.95]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA22899; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 21:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 21:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199808190140.VAA22899@smtp1.erols.com> X-Sender: usbt@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Chris Webb From: Joe Charlson Subject: Re: GBlist: CCA Treated Lumber Alternative Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4123 Christopher J. Webb wrote: >Anyone have ideas about what to specify as an alternative to CCA? How about 60% recycled steel framing with framing insulation? ****************************************** Joe Charlson United States Building Technology, Inc. http://www.erols.com/usbt 701-B Waverly Street,Framingham, MA, 01702 USA Tel: 508-424-0055, Fax: 508-424-0050 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 18 22:27:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA08759 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:27:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29936; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:11:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:07:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA29639 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:07:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA29635 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:07:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.154] (rkd26.acadia.net [205.217.217.154]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA27750 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:17:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:17:44 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: CCA Treated Lumber Alternative Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4124 >Hi all, > >Isn't there a new more environmentally friendly alternative to CCA treated >wood? > >Anyone have ideas about what to specify as an alternative to CCA? > >Thanks! >--------------------------------------------------------------- >Christopher J. Webb, EIT Hi Chris, Alternatives to CCA have been discussed extensively on this list. You can find a lot of this material in the archives (start with www.crest.org), and by checking back issues of Environmental Building News. Previous rounds have discussed the merits of ACQ preservative (a less-toxic alternative to CCA), a powdered, non-toxic preservative endorsed by Jorg Ostrowski from this group, and naturally rot-resistant woods such as black locust, osage orange, and reclaimed redwood and cypress. Good luck with your search. Tell us what you learn. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 18 22:56:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA08978 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:56:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00950; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:40:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:36:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA00613 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:36:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00609 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:36:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip06.ivnet.net [206.101.73.166]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19970; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 18:39:52 -0700 Message-ID: <35DA3B4A.2F187367@ivnet.net> Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 19:41:14 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marcoplos@aol.com CC: brambleberry@pressenter.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Alternative Gutter Materials References: <9d5ad0d5.35d8c031@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4125 Marcoplos@aol.com wrote: > > Aluminum may not be such a bad choice for gutters because it can be recylcled > so easily. > Steel also recycles easily, tho' not for as much per pound. It is also stronger (which can be good for snow or ice loads), doesn't oxidise & crack so easily, & enjoys better support from its manufacturers. Aluminum still seems to be the choice for downspouts, which can be a thinner gauge and generally deal with only the most minimal structural stresses. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 18 23:45:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA09630 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:45:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02892; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:30:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:26:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02620 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:26:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02611 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:26:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.99] (pm1a3.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.99]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA13326; Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:36:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:36:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980817123842.00b38824@grove.ufl.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Brad Guy From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building Materials Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4126 Hi Brad & folks, Here are some more thoughts on green labeling of building materials: The carpet & rug industry's label is a pretty bottom-line minimum standard. When it first appeared there were a bunch of carpets that failed to meet it, but they've since all gotten their act together. I would say that it really distinguishes "green" products. Also, it's a single-issue label, only addressing air emissions. There are a number of single-issue labels on energy that are relevant to green building--most notably the National Fenestration Rating Council's rating system, that now appears on most reputable windows. Appliances have energyGuide labels. Supposedly, Underwriters Laboratory is working on some sort of IAQ label. I have yet to connect with the guy to get details. The only true green label that I'm aware of is that certification done by Green Seal. They have coordinated some broadly participatory standards-development processes, and come up with Standards for a number of products, including paints, windows, and some other building materials. You can view their standards at www.greenseal.org. We are referencing some of them in our EBN Product Catalog. I would disagree that SCS and Smartwood only label building materials by default. Both organizations do chain-of-custody labeling, which means that they actually certify the building product manufacturer, not just the lumber at the mill. So I would say that certified wood products fit your bill. To answer David Foley's question on ISO--my understanding is that ISO 14000, like the other ISO labels, merely reflects the fact that the certified company has a process in place to monitor and continually improve environmental performance. It does not establish any minimum standards for actual products or services. The same could be said for "Natural Step" companies like Monsanto. They are participating in a certain process, but it does not guarantee anything about any one of their products. Having shared all that, I'd like to mention that we're struggling with this question in relation to our EBN Product Catalog. Since we're selective about which products we include, any product in our catalog is, in a sense, "approved" by EBN. However, we have yet to spell out exactly what criteria we use to determine suitability. So far, it has been based on our subjective judgement, with some specific facts in tow. We'd love to hear more on this from others. Nadav At 12:38 PM -0400 8/17/98, Brad Guy wrote: >We are putting together a research paper on "eco-labeling" specific to >building materials in the US. The one that I know about is the Carpet and >Rug Institute "green label". Scientific Certification Systems includes >building materials, but is not specifically set up to look at building >materials. The FCS and SmartWood labelling includes building materials by >default, if a piece of certified lumber happens to be used in construction. >Same with AFPA system. Does anyone know of specific materials eco-labeling >for construction, either industry-wide or through a construction industry >sector like the carpet industry? Thank you for your help. >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsbile design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 19 01:40:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA10525 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 01:40:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA06539; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 01:24:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Aug 1998 01:20:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA06110 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 01:20:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA06106 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 01:20:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000013318 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 00:27:50 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 98 00:30:20 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: CCA Treated Lumber Alternative To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5398844.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4127 cwebb@az.com writes: >Isn't there a new more environmentally friendly alternative to CCA treated >wood? >Anyone have ideas about what to specify as an alternative to CCA? Yes, there are several alternatives. See the "Wood Treatment" section of the Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/contents.html for details. Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 19 07:48:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA12692 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:48:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA14241; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:33:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:29:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA13796 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:28:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA13792 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:28:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1RACa27698 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:38:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8a542890.35dab92f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:38:22 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building Materials Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 214 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4128 In a message dated 8/19/98 12:17:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nadav@ebuild.com writes: << Hi Brad & folks, Here are some more thoughts on green labeling of building materials: The carpet & rug industry's label is a pretty bottom-line minimum standard. When it first appeared there were a bunch of carpets that failed to meet it, but they've since all gotten their act together. I would say that it really distinguishes "green" products. Also, it's a single-issue label, only addressing air emissions. >> I agree with much of Nadav's excellent comments in his reply. Well said! In addition, the CRI label referenced above is a first step but not a significant one as (my understanding) CRI's testing only covers the carpet and not wet adhesives. Glue is a much larger issue in carpeting. Some companies have taken steps to eliminate wet adhesives but the State of Washinton IAQ protocols are much better. In addition, trade associations are dependent on their member's dues and are therefore somewhat constrained. <> Great synopsis! I've seen companies that have a 'philosophy process' but little change in the original product and I've seen companies with great products and not the best philosophy. Bottom line for me is we are buying and specing products not philosophy. I think the processes will lead to better products but that takes time. The best companies are producing products that reflect a dynamic ever changing process. Phil Bailey/SustainAbility Fredericksburg, VA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 19 07:51:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA12715 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:51:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA14467; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:36:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:32:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA14040 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:31:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA14028 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:31:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.130] (ka3-130.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.130]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA31107 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 07:41:57 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980818.104438.6630.5.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 04:30:56 -0400 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Instant Hurricane Roof Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id HAA14031 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4129 Sgrìobh Beverly A. Weiter: >Great idea in theory but, thought not a structural engineer, as one who >has lived in S. Florida and through the edges of two hurricanes, I doubt >that a canvas structure of any sort could withstand the force of the >wind. Furthermore, any edges that would allow the wind to get under them >and that would probably not only be the end of your structure but would >also create yet another potential projectile. > >Just my opinion, based on good old horse sense. Yes, I recall the hurricane that brushed this area a few years back. Pretty impressive. Still, let's not abandon it just because common sense says to. :) Plenty of good ideas defy common sense. Anyone out there with aerospace experience? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 19 09:24:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13756 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18722; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:07:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:03:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18340 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:03:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18332 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:03:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.98] (ud9.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.106]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA05630 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:13:41 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <19980818.104438.6630.5.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:25:39 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Instant Hurricane Roof Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4130 Hi, I've been in hurricance force winds in fabric shelters above treeline and am here to tell the tale. It's the tent folks you may want to talk to. I'd try Moss tents (who as I recall started out in aerospace). They've done some pretty eccentric things. Come to think of it, so has Aerovironment, the company that made the Gossamer Albatross. - Terry > Yes, I recall the hurricane that brushed this area a few years back. >Pretty impressive. Still, let's not abandon it just because common sense >says to. :) Plenty of good ideas defy common sense. > > Anyone out there with aerospace experience? > >-Speireag. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 19 09:51:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA14015 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:51:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA20076; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:35:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:31:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19713 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:31:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19709 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:31:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPSXM; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:49:10 -0400 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDCB54.F3B8AE20@Walnut.babb.com>; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:37:16 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDCB54.F3B8AE20@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'Wayne D. Federer'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding (for Northern Climates) -Part 2 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:37:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA19710 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4131 Dear Wayne and other GBlist friends, A fellow employee at my office is building with Hardiplank. He speaks of the product quite positively. The only problem he has had with Hardiplank is that orders can come slowly... He just cannot get enough of it (in the size he wants) fast enough. Hardiplank seems like a smart alternative to standard types of siding, according to his experience and the other information I have heard. It is a bit heavy, my comrade says, weighing about 80 pounds per plank. I would like to respond mainly to your mention of Autoclaved Aerated Concrete. << Autoclaved Aerated Concrete.  An excellent article in EBN ("Autoclaved Aerated Concrete: Is North America Finally Ready?", Volume 5, No. 2 -- March/April 1996) discusses these materials.  (http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Product_Reviews/AAConcrete.html) . >> I work for Babb Cellular Concrete, a Georgia company that recently began operating a Flyash AAC plant. The plant is small, built mainly for research and design. We are building a large production plant in Tennessee within the next year. The plant will be located on the site of the Bull Run fossil plant, and will use up to 100,000 tons of Flyash per year for the manufacture of Autoclaved Cellular Concrete. Basically, Flyash AAC is the gray cousin to Sand AAC (made only by Hebel (http://www.hebel.com) and Ytong (http://www.ytong.com) in the United States). The main difference is that we use flyash, a byproduct of coal burning that is now landfilled in huge quantities in the United States. Please consult the Babb Cellular Concrete web (http://www.babb.com/BCC) for more details. I admit that I am biased, since my family's business is making AAC. But I am personally impressed with the new building material. It not only recycles a waste product, but also possesses excellent characteristics. (Please see the website for more comprehensive details. Our links page (http://www.babb.com/BCC/links.htm) provides a long list of Internet resources of interest to anyone researching AAC. <>   Although this is true for thermal mass, it does not apply to R-value. Fluctuations in temperature are mediated by the AAC, which remains near the average daily temperature. If the weather stays cold all day and night, the AAC will also remain cold. However, a small increase in temperature (even if only for a few hours a day) will increase the average AAC temperature. A Northern house may benefit more in the Summer, since cool nights can dilute the heat absorbed during the day. As I already mentioned, the R-value does not fluctuate. It remains 1.26 per inch (equaling about R-10 for a block). I am told that the addition of thermal mass brings the R-value up to R-30. Of course there are other advantages that do not change at all with climate. Fire resistance, insect resistance, light weight, workability (easy to saw or drive nails into), durability, non-toxicity, and mildew/mold resistance are some important qualities to consider. AAC can replace the cedar siding of your woodframe home. You would need to pour a concrete foundation for the AAC to sit upon. AAC does require the application of a special coating. The coatings we will use are made by elitecement (http://www.elitecement.com). I believe Hebel uses elitecement products as well. You are right about every product having an environmental impact. The best we can do is give high priority to recycling and other green practices. Among other things, I am looking into ways to recycle waste heat from the autoclaves. If anyone has information and/or ideas about this or other aspects of AAC and AAC production, I would greatly appreciate the feedback. Best regards, Jillanna Babb-Cheshul jillanna@babb.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 19 10:35:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14712 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22006; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:16:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21611 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21607 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:16:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DLZ6VHEX; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:26:15 EDT To: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:25:58 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Instant Hurricane Roof Message-ID: <19980819.102623.6566.6.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,7-14 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4132 Spireag, Great idea in theory but, thought not a structural engineer, as one who has lived in S. Florida and through the edges of two hurricanes, I doubt that a canvas structure of any sort could withstand the force of the wind. Furthermore, any edges that would allow the wind to get under them and that would probably not only be the end of your structure but would also create yet another potential projectile. Just my opinion, based on good old horse sense. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 19 11:33:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA15641 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:33:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25782; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:13:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25332 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:13:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25328 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:13:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust205.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.205]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id KAA12717; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:22:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35DAEE83.D36@gte.net> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:25:55 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Curt Nichols CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Infared Photos -- Visual Proof of the Benefits of Weatherization References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4133 Curt, I think I remember seeing infrared photos in National Geographic. I agree they're a great visual. So are satellite images of terrestrial heat islands. You might want to see if Microsoft has any in their site of aerial photographs. Cindy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 19 13:56:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18488 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:56:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07226; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:41:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:35:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06311 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:34:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06306 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:34:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DL2H7UZT; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:44:09 EDT To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:37:03 -0700 Subject: GBlist: refridgerators Message-ID: <19980819.134418.4030.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.38 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,5-6,8,11-16 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4134 Jorg, I have just begun consulting with a client who plans to build an environmental home in Colorado. He mentioned that he is considering using the Sun Frost, as he wants one that does not use Freon. I remembered you posting in December re Vestfrost vs. Sunfrost . I would like to get information on Vestfrost to give the client a better alternative. Do you know how I can contact the company or get literature on the products. Thanks. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 19 14:45:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19349 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:45:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10756; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:30:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:24:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09923 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:24:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nov.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09909 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:24:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.107] (p107.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.107]) by nov.diac.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA17148 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:33:37 GMT Message-Id: <199808191833.SAA17148@nov.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding Date: Wed, 19 Aug 98 12:38:47 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4135 On 8/18/98 10:05 AM Wayne Federer wrote: >In Part 1, I discussed the pros and cons of conventional siding materials. > As explained in Part 1, I seek your input on these and other materials to >replace existing cedar lap siding. (much snipped) Strangly, in this excellent and very long review of siding materials, not a mention was made of what is BY FAR the most common siding system, currently as well as thruout the history of civilization: stucco. Its used all over the world, in most climates, and appears in many forms, compositions, and price ranges. The good qualities you like in Hardiplank are those that emulate stucco. Try it, you'll like it. Buzz Burrell Boulder, CO (Has any one else ever noticed that 90% of the List Subscribers seem to be from New England or Canada? Am I the sole voice in the wilderness from the great SW?) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 19 15:05:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19856 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:05:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12106; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:49:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:45:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA11772 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:45:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hermes.pressenter.com (hermes.pressenter.com [198.150.192.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11768 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:45:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.213.111.93] (helo=wayne-s) by hermes.pressenter.com with smtp (Exim 2.01 #1) id 0z9DOR-0004Gr-00; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:55:36 -0500 X-Sender: wdfvag@mail.pressenter.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:56:00 -0500 To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Wayne D. Federer" Subject: Re: GBlist: refridgerators In-Reply-To: <19980819.134418.4030.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4136 I found a web page with a little information about the Vestfrost refridgerators. I would aimagine if you phone them a data sheet would be available. (I wish I had known about Vestfrost when I recently replaced my own fridge. They are at the very least lot more affordable than the SunFrost, which also must be ordered long in advance.): Sierra Solar Systems, Nevada City, CA ([800-51-SOLAR to order, Technical Information and Foreign Orders (530) 265-8441): http://www.sierrasolar.com /products/catalog.htm I found the above via a link from an EcoMall article "THE NEW WAVE OF ENERGY EFFICIENT REFRIGERATORS" at http://www.ecomall.com/gre enshopping/icebox2.htm. They also give a link to a midwestern company called Low Keep (http://www.datawise.net/~lowkeep/). Another possible distributor for Vestfrost appears to be Northern Arizona Wind & Sun, 888-881-6464, http://www.windsun.co m/Misc_AE/alternative_energy.htm. They may also be able to supply you with information. As an aside, I found an interesting article on Greenpeace's site, "Greenfreeze A Revolution In Domestic Refrigeration": http://www.datawise.net/~lowkeep/ Wayne D. Federer, Ph.D. Brambleberry Run Associates brambleberry@pressenter.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 19 15:12:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19977 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:12:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12653; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:56:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:52:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12307 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:52:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hermes.pressenter.com (hermes.pressenter.com [198.150.192.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12303 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:52:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.213.111.93] (helo=wayne-s) by hermes.pressenter.com with smtp (Exim 2.01 #1) id 0z9DVI-0004OT-00; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:02:41 -0500 X-Sender: wdfvag@mail.pressenter.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:03:05 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Chris Webb From: "Wayne D. Federer" Subject: Re: GBlist: CCA Treated Lumber Alternative Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4137 [When I attempted to send the following response to the greenbuilding group yesterday afternoon, I inadvertently sent to only the poster, Chris Webb. Since then, David M. Foley pointed out that there was discussion of this topic in the archives. However, if you're lazy, or in case my very recent research offers additional useful information, here it is for everyone. WDF] ----------------------- You hit the jackpot, I just happened to do a little investigation of wood treatment alternatives. The new kid on the block is called ACQ (ammoniacal copper quaternary compound). The "quat" is a fungicide also used in swimming pool chemicals, shampoos (but watch out, they will put anything in personal care products!), hospital mop washes, etc. It is said to have low toxicity and be biodegradable, and ACQ-treated wood is said to weather to a warm, brown color, not gray like other pressure treated wood. I understand that the price of ACQ-treated wood is about 10% higher than CCA, which explains why CCA is still used. (Note that Environmental Building News called for a phaseout of CCA.) My PRELIMINARY assessment is that ACQ is a big improvement over CCA, but I don't know if I'm happy about using it unless absolutely necessary. I would want to do more research. (I'm a Ph.D. chemist so just looking at the chemical structure of the quat compound would help me make an educated guess to supplement what toxicity testing has also been done.) If termites and the like are the reason for using treated wood, then I would look into the borate-treated alternatives such as Timbor (sp?), though they may not offer the protection in all situations that ACQ or CCA will give. (Personally, I have a real low tolerance for the use of pesticides, fungicides, etc.) Some web sites to help you study the issue: * A press release entitled "Environmental Report Card to be Issued on Preservative in ACQ Preserve Pressure-Treated Wood", www.pressline.com/hard/010/html/text6.htm" * The American Wood Preserers Institute, www.awpi.org * BB&S Treated Lumber of New England, www.bbslumber.com, and especially their page "Lumber and the Environment" (www.bbslumber.com/enviro.htm), and their "ACQ Facts" ( www.bbslumber.com/acq.htm) * Northern Crossarm, www.crossarm.com, the Midwest's largest wood treatment company * Contact info. for Chemical Specialties, Inc. of Charlotte, NC, the manufacturer of the ACQ chemical, telephone 800-421-8661, see listing at www.thebluebook.com/hs/htm/0029376700081.shtml * A half-page writeup on treated wood from "This Old House" at www.pathfinder.com/TOH/95_05/treated/treated-what.html Wayne Federer, Ph.D. Brambleberry Run Associates 767 160th Avenue New Richmond, WI 54017 (near Minneapolis-St.Paul) USA brambleberry@pressenter.com 715-246-2746 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 19 15:24:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA20108 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:24:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13596; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:04:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13177 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hermes.pressenter.com (hermes.pressenter.com [198.150.192.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13171 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.213.111.93] (helo=wayne-s) by hermes.pressenter.com with smtp (Exim 2.01 #1) id 0z9DgN-0004be-00; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:14:08 -0500 X-Sender: wdfvag@mail.pressenter.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:14:32 -0500 To: Buzz Burrell , "GreenBuilding List" From: "Wayne D. Federer" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding In-Reply-To: <199808191833.SAA17148@nov.diac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA13172 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4138 I guess I didn't mention stucco because I don't see how it would be applied onto existing timber frame construction, which was the limiting criterion for my review. I admit profound ignorance of stucco, it's not all that common here in the upper midwest (close to the wilderness in the Great Lakes, well south of the Canadian border). (I'm also a scientist who is a novice trying to learn about building, who is much better informed in the field of environmental and health effects of materials!) To apply stucco to replace cedar siding, wouldn't I need an additional substrate? An additional foundation? Wayne Federer Brambleberry Run Associates brambleberry@pressenter.com ----------------- At 12:38 PM 8/19/98 -0600, Buzz Burrell wrote: >Strangly, in this excellent and very long review of siding materials, not >a mention was made of what is BY FAR the most common siding system, >currently as well as thruout the history of civilization:  stucco.  Its >used all over the world, in most climates, and appears in many forms, >compositions, and price ranges.  The good qualities you like in >Hardiplank are those that emulate stucco.  Try it, you'll like it. > >Buzz Burrell >Boulder, CO > >(Has any one else ever noticed that 90% of the List Subscribers seem to >be from New England or Canada?  Am I the sole voice in the wilderness >from the great SW?) >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST <www.crest.org> >Environmental Building News <www.ebuild.com> and Oikos <www.oikos.com> >For  instructions send  e-mail to  greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 19 16:08:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA20737 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:08:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16192; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:53:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:48:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15724 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:48:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15713 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:48:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPSZQ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:05:49 -0400 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDCB89.8CD26A40@Walnut.babb.com>; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:53:46 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDCB89.8CD26A40@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'Wayne D. Federer'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: CCA Treated Lumber Alternative Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:53:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA15715 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4139 ACQ treatment has some problems, too. The main one involves leaching. The chemical, though not as toxic (as far as we know...and it is still new...), leaches more quickly than CCA from wood. This not only leads to speedier decay and vulnerability to insects, but also to a high amount of chemical in the environment. There is still some question about its safety, as far as I can tell. My favorite engineer (my Dad) tells me that someone could make a fortune (and become very well-liked) if he or she were to invent a treatment using borate and some sort of binder to keep it from leaching out. Borate is the safest, but leaches out in the first year or two! I found Timbor (disodium octaborate tetrahydrate in ethylene glycol) information on the web, but am still a bit confused as to its applications and effectiveness. Does anyone have experience or knowledge of this product? Anybody got any ideas? Mercy---it seems preservatives and pesticides just don't jive with nature at all, do they? Jillanna PS to Buzz: I am from Georgia, so you are not alone as a non-Canadian, non-New Englander. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 19 16:23:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA20991 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA16989; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:03:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:00:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA16567 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:00:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA16563 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:00:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA14501 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:10:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bsy5.vineyard.net(206.166.158.40) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma014447; Wed Aug 19 16:10:15 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:12:41 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4140 Another siding material that hasn't been been mentioned, and is a fine choice (at least for East Coasters): white cedar shingles made by Maibec. They buy their cedar from Seven Islands Land Company, an SCS certified producer. Cedar shingles are durable, easily repaired and/or replaced, aesthetically pleasing, and do a damn good job of keeping water out of buildings. Worn-out shingles make good scratch paper, kindling, compost, you name it. Here in coastal New England the exposed part is usually paper thin by the time they need to be removed - worn away by the ravages of rain and salt and sand. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 19 19:02:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA23624 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 19:02:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA25963; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:46:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:42:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA25655 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:42:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from epud.org (www.epud.org [208.8.142.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA25645 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:42:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dstill ([162.162.4.184]) by epud.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA15008 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:00:00 -0700 Message-Id: <199808192300.QAA15008@epud.org> From: "Dean Still" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: refridgerators Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:57:01 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4141 Don't forget the possibility of a draft box. We have one in our dormitory (near Eugene, Oregon) and do very nicely without electrical refrigeration except in the summer months. A draft box is a screened in box that opens into the kitchen through a well insulated door. Like a lot of good eco things, they were in extensive use before electrification of the nation. A "Cob Cube", which is a high mass earthen box, keeps the box interior at the 24 hour average temperature and helps to keep temps above freezing. Chillers, like swamp coolers, can keep stuff cool without the expenditure of phase change. Dean Still Aprovecho Research Center ---------- > From: Beverly A. Weiter > To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca; greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: refridgerators > Date: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 1:37 PM > > Jorg, > > I have just begun consulting with a client who plans to build an > environmental home > in Colorado. He mentioned that he is considering using the Sun Frost, as > he wants one that does not use Freon. > > I remembered you posting in December re Vestfrost vs. Sunfrost . I would > like to get > information on Vestfrost to give the client a better alternative. Do you > know how I can contact the company or get literature on the products. > Thanks. > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > Boca Raton, FL > www.environsinteriors.com > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 19 23:06:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA26002 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:06:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA04844; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:45:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA04496 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:45:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hermes.pressenter.com (hermes.pressenter.com [198.150.192.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA04491 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:45:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.213.111.47] (helo=wayne-s) by hermes.pressenter.com with smtp (Exim 2.01 #1) id 0z9KtD-0004PS-00; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:55:52 -0500 X-Sender: wdfvag@mail.pressenter.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:56:16 -0500 To: Jillanna Babb , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" From: "Wayne D. Federer" Subject: RE: GBlist: CCA Treated Lumber Alternative In-Reply-To: <01BDCB89.8CD26A40@Walnut.babb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4142 At 03:53 PM 8/19/98 -0400, Jillanna Babb wrote: ... My favorite engineer (my Dad) tells me that someone could make a fortune (and become very well-liked) if he or she were to invent a treatment using borate and some sort of binder to keep it from leaching out. Borate is the safest, but leaches out in the first year or two! >I found Timbor (disodium octaborate tetrahydrate in ethylene glycol) information on the web, but am still a bit confused as to its applications and effectiveness. Does anyone have experience or knowledge of this product? Jillanna, you're dad may be right. If they can make microencapsulated fragrances for perfume to be slowly released so it lasts all day, they can certainly do the same with any poison. The wood treatment formulators at the chemical companies just need to apply some good colloid & surface chemistry. Actually, on page 114 of William Olkowski and coauthors' wonderful 1991 (I have the 5th printing from 1996) book, "Common Sense Pest Control," they write "scientists at U.S. Borax Corporation [the manufacturer of TIM-BOR] and a number of universities are currently working on other methods to reduce borate leaching, and new borate products able to protect wood in damp soil may reach the market in the future." Earlier in this same paragraph, they say that "studies ... have demonstrated that borax compounds provide wood used above ground and protected with rainfall with decades of protection from wood-boring beetles, termites, and decay fungi. When the borate-treated posts are placed in wet soil, however, the borate leaches out over time." On page 424, the table lists the average life of TIM-BOR treated wood above ground as "20.0+ years." On page 425 they point out that unlike other wood preservatives, borate readily penetrates all the way into the heartwood, and thus even when cut the surfaces are still protected. And they say "researchers found that by spraying TIM-BOR on wooden posts, joists, rafters, subflooring, and the soil surface in foundation areas of the house, the wood was successfully protected ... as long as ... [it] was not chronically wet." On pp. 424-425 they suggest another alternative suitable for certain applications - a formulation developed at the USDA Forest Products Laboratory that is similar to the commercial product Thompson's Water Seal. It contains boiled linseed oil, paraffin wax, paint thinner solvent (perhaps an alternative could be used?), and copper-8-quinolinate if there will be wood-soil contact. Testing of this product in Madison, WI on windows and sashes indicated comparable performance to pentachlorophenol. >Mercy---it seems preservatives and pesticides just don't jive with nature at all, do they? Has anyone read "Designer Poisons : How to Protect Your Health and Home from Toxic Pesticides" by Marion Moses, M.D.? This book was highly recommended at the recent baubiologie seminar I attended. Wayne Federer Brambleberry Run Associates brambleberry@pressenter.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 20 00:00:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA26540 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:00:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA06727; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:44:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:41:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA06486 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:40:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA06482 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 23:40:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000013490 for ; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 22:48:07 -0500 Date: Wed, 19 Aug 98 22:14:30 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re(2): GBlist: Green Building Materials To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5404260.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4143 Another opinion... Scientific Certification Systems has reviewed a number of building products. I'm pretty impressed with thier assessmsnt methods. Sue Barnett City of Austin Green Building Program -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 20 00:31:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA26747 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:31:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA07679; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:16:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:12:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA07427 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:11:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07423 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:11:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip14.ivnet.net [206.101.73.174]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28220; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 20:15:19 -0700 Message-ID: <35DBA329.10CB6F08@ivnet.net> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:16:42 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jillanna Babb CC: "'Wayne D. Federer'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: CCA Treated Lumber Alternative References: <01BDCB89.8CD26A40@Walnut.babb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4144 Timbor is a pesticide targeted primarily at termites. There was a pretty good article written about borate-based termiticides in the Journal of Light Construction, one in February and one in June of '97. Jillanna Babb wrote: > > > I found Timbor (disodium octaborate tetrahydrate in ethylene glycol) information on the web, but am still a bit confused as to its applications and effectiveness. Does anyone have experience or knowledge of this product? > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 20 00:57:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA26882 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:57:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08440; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:42:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:38:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA08167 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:38:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA08153 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:38:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip14.ivnet.net [206.101.73.174]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28355; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 20:41:39 -0700 Message-ID: <35DBA956.92F44F81@ivnet.net> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:43:02 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Wayne D. Federer" CC: Buzz Burrell , GreenBuilding List Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4145 Wayne D. Federer wrote: > > I guess I didn't mention stucco because I don't see how it would be applied > onto existing timber frame construction, which was the limiting criterion for > my review. I admit profound ignorance of stucco, it's not all that common > here > in the upper midwest (close to the wilderness in the Great Lakes, well > south of > the Canadian border). To apply stucco to replace cedar siding, > wouldn't I need an additional substrate? An additional foundation? > Stucco can be applied over your existing siding. Traditional stucco application uses a lathing system combining wire and tarpaper, covered with about 3/4" of mortar and an 1/8" thick colored cement finish coat. It doesn't ever have to be painted, and if the color starts to look dirty and blotchy (say 20 years later?) it can be coated with a "cement paint," which is basically white Portland cement and pigment (no sand.) This can be applied with a low-pressure backpack sprayer. You can't really change the stucco's color this way, but you can even it out. In areas with lots of freeze-thaw cycles, hairline cracks in the stucco can be widened by frost jacking. In these climates it seems to make sense to use one of the EIFS acrylic finishes as the finish coat. These are elastic and will bridge over small cracks in the substrate. The color is mixed into the material, and it does not require painting. Some advantages of this system are its excellent fire resistivity, its resistance to rot or decay, its low maintenance, and its low air infiltration (especially if detailed around openings properly.) Its quite easy to build a house that an ant can't find its way into with stucco. It has almost negligible toxicity, and can be shaped into arches and cool forms pretty easily. Some downsides are the high embodied energy content of cement, and the large amount of labor in initially installing the material. I think these are balanced out by the low maintenance costs, so that its lifetime energy cost is pretty low. I reccomend it to people with high fire danger. I've used it on a few buildings with no dificulty so far, although I'm concerned that if water finds its way into this wall system it will have a hard time finding its way out. Does anyone out there in Listland have any experience with this? Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 20 01:06:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA26964 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 01:06:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA09094; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:51:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:47:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA08736 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA08732 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:47:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip14.ivnet.net [206.101.73.174]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28412; Wed, 19 Aug 1998 20:50:35 -0700 Message-ID: <35DBAB6F.696BD021@ivnet.net> Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:51:59 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jillanna Babb CC: "'Wayne D. Federer'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding (for Northern Climates) -Part 2 References: <01BDCB54.F3B8AE20@Walnut.babb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4146 Jillanna Babb wrote: > > > < the superior insulating properties of such materials are less of a > consideration in northern climates. >> > Although this is true for thermal mass, it does not apply to R-value. Fluctuations in temperature are mediated by the AAC, which remains near the average daily temperature. If the weather stays cold all day and night, the AAC will also remain cold. However, a small increase in temperature (even if only for a few hours a day) will increase the average AAC temperature. A Northern house may benefit more in the Summer, since cool nights can dilute the heat absorbed during the day. > > As I already mentioned, the R-value does not fluctuate. It remains 1.26 per inch (equaling about R-10 for a block). I am told that the addition of thermal mass brings the R-value up to R-30. > You should probably reread the excellent article in EBN regarding effective R-value for high thermal mass materials. It will help you understand how the addition of thermal mass can't bring the R-value up to R-30. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 20 07:43:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA28962 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:43:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA19116; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:27:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:22:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA18697 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:22:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA18693 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.92] (ka2-92.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.92]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA18848 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199808191833.SAA17148@nov.diac.com> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:57:56 -0400 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id HAA18694 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4147 Sgrìobh Buzz Burrell: >(Has any one else ever noticed that 90% of the List Subscribers seem to >be from New England or Canada? Am I the sole voice in the wilderness >from the great SW?) I grew up in California, before moving to New Hampshire. Does that count? :) -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 20 07:43:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA28967 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:43:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA19123; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:22:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA18728 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA18720 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:22:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.92] (ka2-92.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.92]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA03011; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:32:27 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BDCB89.8CD26A40@Walnut.babb.com> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:56:22 -0400 To: Jillanna Babb , Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: RE: GBlist: CCA Treated Lumber Alternative Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id HAA18721 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4148 Sgrìobh Jillanna Babb: >ACQ treatment has some problems, too. The main one involves leaching. >The chemical, though not as toxic (as far as we know...and it is still >new...), leaches more quickly than CCA from wood. This not only leads to >speedier decay and vulnerability to insects, but also to a high amount of >chemical in the environment. > For some applications, though, I would think that this would be largely irrelevant. For instance, toe-ups in straw bale walls, or sill plates, or any other place where there won't be constant exposure to very moist conditions. The problem which I found with CCA alternatives was that my local building supply places would only order them by the pallette, when all I needed was a post and some 2x4's. Ah, well. I poured cement instead, for the post. Yes, I know that cement production produces lots of carbon dioxide, but on the other hand I'm not worrying about arsenic leaching from the post. If they were readily available around here, I'd be using them. As it is, I'm avoiding treated wood altogether. The large article which This Old House ran a few months ago was persuasive enough for me. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 20 07:50:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA29020 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:50:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA19443; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:35:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:31:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA19246 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:31:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA19242 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.201.57] (usr2a57.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.57]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA20605; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:41:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: whales@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:35:35 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Crockett Subject: Re: GBlist: "Natural" Refrigeration Cc: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4149 David et al., I have not had any experience with this specific product, so the following comments may not apply. I worked for five years in a grocery store here in southern Vermont that used this type of system to cool our walk-in, reach-in cooler. In fact I was one of the advocates for having the thing installed. Unfortunately, it met with mixed reviews from the staff. The main problem was air pressure. When the outside-air cooling system was operating, the blower pressurized the cooler, and although there were exhaust vents that were supposed to equalize the pressure, they did not work very well. They were not big enough, they were hard to open and close, a pain to keep track of in the spring and fall when the system switched frequently between compressor cooling and outside-air cooling (they obviously needed to be closed when the compressor was operating - you don't want to be venting all that hard-earned cold air), and since space was always at a premium in the cooler, they tended to get blocked by stacks of cartons. The result was that the reach-in doors were always blowing open from the built-up pressure, the cold air was blowing out into the store, and the coolers never stayed as cold as they should, even on very cold winter days. At about the time I left, the system was being pretty much ignored. I still think it is a great idea, but the pressure balance and the opening and closing of exhaust vents during times of varying outdoor temps seems to be critical. I would investigate those aspects thoroughly before installing such a system. John Crockett >We just received a brochure about an intriguing product. Called "Natural >Cool", it's a stainless steel unit that delivers cool, filtered ambient air >to walk-in and reach-in coolers, whenever the outside temperature is cold >enough to chill the compartment. The manufacturer claims energy savings, >savings on compressor wear and tear, and filtration which meets or exceeds >all U.S. health code and food safety standards. Does anyone have direct >experience with this product? Anyone seeking more info could contact >Natural Cool in Newport, VT, USA at 1-800-258-5665, fax: 802-334-2383, >email: natcool@together.net. > > >David Foley >Holland and Foley Building Design >232 Beech Hill Road >Northport, Maine USA 04849 >p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ john@ebuild.com Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 20 09:22:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA29677 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:22:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22284; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:07:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:03:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22017 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:02:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22013 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:02:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.72] (uc7.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.72]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA08481 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:12:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35DBA956.92F44F81@ivnet.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:24:57 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4150 Hi folks, This pretty well matches my experience with stucco. Stucco provides a physical barrier and a little storage for rain, the lath and asphaly felt provide a drainage layer for wind driven rain. The whole system provides pressure relief for sun driven water vapor. I have a question that perhaps someone can help me with. I always used galvanized metal lath on exterior stucco jobs because it greatly delayed the day when rust would appear on the stucco surface (in the humid northeast anyway). Does anyone know of a glass fiber or thermplastic lath that can be used on the exterior? - Thanks Terry >Stucco can be applied over your existing siding. Traditional stucco >application uses a lathing system combining wire and tarpaper, covered >with about 3/4" of mortar and an 1/8" thick colored cement finish coat. >It doesn't ever have to be painted, and if the color starts to look >dirty and blotchy (say 20 years later?) it can be coated with a "cement >paint," which is basically white Portland cement and pigment (no sand.) >This can be applied with a low-pressure backpack sprayer. You can't >really change the stucco's color this way, but you can even it out. > >In areas with lots of freeze-thaw cycles, hairline cracks in the stucco >can be widened by frost jacking. In these climates it seems to make >sense to use one of the EIFS acrylic finishes as the finish coat. These >are elastic and will bridge over small cracks in the substrate. The >color is mixed into the material, and it does not require painting. > >Some advantages of this system are its excellent fire resistivity, its >resistance to rot or decay, its low maintenance, and its low air >infiltration (especially if detailed around openings properly.) Its >quite easy to build a house that an ant can't find its way into with >stucco. It has almost negligible toxicity, and can be shaped into arches >and cool forms pretty easily. > >Some downsides are the high embodied energy content of cement, and the >large amount of labor in initially installing the material. I think >these are balanced out by the low maintenance costs, so that its >lifetime energy cost is pretty low. I reccomend it to people with high >fire danger. > >I've used it on a few buildings with no dificulty so far, although I'm >concerned that if water finds its way into this wall system it will have >a hard time finding its way out. Does anyone out there in Listland have >any experience with this? > >Bruce Donelson >A Better Builder >Takilma Oregon >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 20 09:59:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA00204 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23958; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:43:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:39:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23603 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA23599 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:39:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uymfdlvk (dial-9-MAX-BTVT-06.ramp.together.net [208.13.204.9]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA18039 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:49:17 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980820094852.007ab520@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:48:52 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re: School ventilation and outside air for walk-in coolers In-Reply-To: <199808130600.CAA01268@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4151 I have a belated response to what Dave Foley wrote about school ventilation: We recently did a community-built 2-classroom building (see Solar Today May/June 1997) for our local school and used a Venmar enthalpic recovery system. We needed 600 cfm of mechanical ventilation, and chose a VenMar unit that was built for 1000/2000 cfm and had it delivered with a transformer to reduce the low speed to 600 cfm, resulting in a much quieter system and higer recovery efficiency. We used a 24-hr/7day timer for control, with a manual 60-min crank timer for night meetings or whatever. (Tom Anderson: No, I don't know if anyone uses it.) In all the responses I missed anyone talking about the first reason we went with enthalpic recovery -- the school was dessicating the students. My daughter would come home with nosebleeds in winter, which I attribute in part to excessive dryness. Montioring of other parts of the school showed relative humidities in the single digits in winter. While the moisture recovery from the enthalpic wheel won't get the air up to humidity levels we would like to live in, we are doing the best we can short of humidifying, which seems to have its own IAQ issues. Dave -- You also asked about outside air for walk-ins We have specified these for a number of small groceries and school walkins and have had no complaints. We have used Free Aire, Warren VT 802-496-5205. Dave, Please feel free to call or e-mail me directly if you want more specifics on any of these. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT 05602 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 20 19:25:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02118 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 19:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21114; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:14:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:11:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA20855 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:10:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20851 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:10:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000013752 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:18:14 -0500 Date: Thu, 20 Aug 98 17:30:07 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: GBlist: Real and not real Stucco To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5408459.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4152 jillanna@babb.com writes: >PS I have also heard people around here make the distinction between *real stucco* >and... *not real stucco*. Can anyone tell me the difference? I thought stucco was >just the material you used to cover the walls... Ooooh boy. Jillanna, you sure know how to open those cans of worms! They're probably referring to lime- or cement-stucco, as opposed to the elastomeric and acrylic "stucco" look. There have been some discussions on this list, and a lot more in the Strawbale list, on merits, mixes, methods, and mistakes of various stuccos. I suggest that you take a stroll through the archives of the two lists at http://solstice.crest.org/sustainable/greenbuilding-list-archive/index.html and http://solstice.crest.org/efficiency/strawbale-list-archive/index.html You'll come back knowing a lot more about stucco than you thought possible. Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 20 19:25:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02124 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 19:25:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15326; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:09:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:04:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA14910 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:04:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14906 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:04:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPS9X; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:21:09 -0400 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDCC54.F6D64A80@Walnut.babb.com>; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:09:52 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDCC54.F6D64A80@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'Bruce'" , "'GBLIST'" Subject: RE: GBlist: sticks and stones Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:09:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA14907 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4153 <> Yes, it is always a good idea to reread an article you mention, isn't it!? I am glad the discussion reached this point, because I have been slightly confused about it... I certainly agree that R-30 sounds fantastic. I quoted from sources (Hebel, etc) that claim an AAC wall system achieves this rating. We have just begun making AAC, and will need to test wall systems and get our own ratings... I spoke with our head engineer, and he said that you are right: AAC and traditional stick framing with insulation achieve about the same R-rating in Northern climes. Thermal mass still has some effect, but it is very small. He also mentioned that studs in the walls conduct heat and cold, counteracting the R-value to some degree... and that traditional insulation often loses value over time as it tends to collapse... Gravity does not have that effect on AAC. No building material is perfect, unfortunately, but we are trying to make something better than the traditional methods. My family also owns a 50-year-old lumber company, so we have had some experience with the problems (and good points as well!) of that material... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 20 19:25:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02129 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 19:25:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07534; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:50:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:45:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA07147 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:45:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07143 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:45:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPS8R; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 14:01:54 -0400 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDCC41.848B3CA0@Walnut.babb.com>; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:50:40 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDCC41.848B3CA0@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'GBLIST'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: Stucco Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:50:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA07144 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4154 I live in Georgia, where the weather remains humid most of the year. I have seen many new houses, beautiful $300,000 houses, with molded/mildewed stucco walls. Some owners have chosen to replace the molded walls with vinyl siding : ( I hear it has something to do with what the stucco covers, whether it is something like masonite or something more solid... Maybe some products are more difficult to waterproof... Does anyone know? Perhaps the less humid regions of the country do not have this problem... but we certainly have to worry about it here. The stucco look is gorgeous... I certainly hate to see it exchanged for vinyl siding! Best Wishes... Jillanna Babb-Cheshul PS I have also heard people around here make the distinction between *real stucco* and... *not real stucco*. Can anyone tell me the difference? I thought stucco was just the material you used to cover the walls... Thanks! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 20 19:25:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02131 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 19:25:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27344; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:57:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:53:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27070 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:53:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27062 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:53:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust18.tnt12.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.33.18]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA27353; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:03:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35DC3A28.784E@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:00:56 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Bruce Subject: GBlist: Re: Stucco References: <35DBA956.92F44F81@ivnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4155 Bruce wrote: > > > I've used it [stucco] on a few buildings with no dificulty so far, although I'm > concerned that if water finds its way into this wall system it will have > a hard time finding its way out. Does anyone out there in Listland have > any experience with this? > Stucco is very common here in California. Before I understood its potential durability I never liked it because it has a bit of a roughness to it (there are multitudes of textures, some smoother than others). But it is durable...virtually maintenance-free. Even if you paint it, the paint lasts a long time because there is little flexing with temperature (and none with humidity). It is extremely strong too. But yes, getting the water-proofing details is critical. Just yesterday I was walking around a house with the owner, showing where the old wood rain gutters returned back to the house at the end of a run, and the gutters terminiated at the wooden sheathing beneath the stucco. After the bit of tar at the ends of the gutters wore out, rainwater seeped down the sheathing beneath the stucco and the entire section of wall framign rotted out. I don't know if this is unique to stucco...can you guess what a strawbale wall would look like subjected to the same? I once was tracing out some rot beneath stucco and found the entire rim joist of the second floor rotten for 5 feet on either side of a corner. That means that it was essentially the layer of stucco that was holding up the entire corner. Pretty impressive. It is tricky to break into old stucco for remodeling, and successfully restore the membrane below. As with new work, the little details of waterproofing are essential. I don't know why stucco is not common elsewhere in the country. As one of the wee minority on this list holding out in the remote reaches west of the Green Mountains, I am delighted to have something of my own expertise. I mean, who in California has much to do with frost lines, hurricanes, insect screens, or dehumidifiers? Hey, while all of you are doing that, I'm off catching a few waves. Surfs up! seth melchert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 20 19:25:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02136 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 19:25:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26388; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:33:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26121 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nov.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26117 for ; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:32:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.167] (p167.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.167]) by nov.diac.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA14963; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 14:41:46 GMT Message-Id: <199808201441.OAA14963@nov.diac.com> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding Date: Thu, 20 Aug 98 08:47:00 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "Wayne D. Federer" , "GreenBuilding List" , "Bruce " Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4156 On 8/19/98 1:14 PM Wayne D. Federer wrote: >I guess I didn't mention stucco because I don't see how it would be applied >onto existing timber frame construction, which was the limiting criterion for >my review. I admit profound ignorance of stucco, it's not all that common >here >in the upper Midwest (close to the wilderness in the Great Lakes, well >south of >the Canadian border).... To apply stucco to replace cedar siding, >wouldn't I need an additional substrate? An additional foundation? I guess I didn't catch the "existing" condition in your post. Otherwise, there would be no problem, as "cob" (England), "leichtholm" (Germanic), and countless other terms describe the classic timberframe constructed houses of Europe, which were infilled with various straw/clay mixtures and then stuccoed (plastered, rendered, slipped, etc). I have no idea if it's right for your situation, it probably isn't since it's not traditional in your area, but I do know you can stucco almost anything. In modern USA timberframing, the infill is often SIP's, which take stucco well. If there is no existing solid substrate behind your cedar, then as Bruce described, you would have to add something. No additional foundation would be needed in any case. Part of the intention behind my post was probably my annual little reminder to folks in New England and Canada that masonry construction works well and is far more common in the rest of the world than your moisture/infiltration obsessed stick framing (oops, my hidden prejudice just slipped out, why did I say that)?! Have Fun! Buzz Burrell Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 21 00:22:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA19703 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:22:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA02095; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:06:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:02:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA01758 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:02:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.sprynet.com (m3.sprynet.com [165.121.1.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA01754 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:02:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 209.154.96.112 (sf-dnpqb-112.compuserve.net [209.154.96.112]) by m3.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA16428; Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35DCF67D.886@sprynet.com> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 21:24:31 -0700 From: Art Ludwig Reply-To: odesign@sprynet.com Organization: Oasis Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, sbtauto@juno.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Greywater information Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4157 sbtauto@juno.com wrote: > Art, > I am planning to reroute my drain from our family washer to the great out > doors. My idea at this time is to run the drain pipe underground to a > grassy knoll and spray the drain water around this grass area. > > Is this OK? Are there any issues I should be concerned about? Will this > kill my grass (zoysia)? Howdy... I'm going to assume that you don't care about reusing the water, you just want to get rid of it, and that you don't care if the system is code-approved--let me know if this is not the case, as this changes things. HARDWARE ISSUES You don't want to burn out your pump or flood the area around your washer. What size is the drain pipe? Is it pressurized by the washing machine pump or is there an air gap where the drain hose goes in? In the pressurized case, 1" pvc is preferred, and you may need a vacuum breaker and/or return check valve as described in my book, "Create an Oasis with Greywater." In the unpressurized case, 1-1/2 ABS is minimum, 2" preferred, and the line must run constantly downhill at 2% minimum slope. If this line is to be used in below freezing temperatures, the unpressurized line is the only way to go, and the outlet geometery must be such that it will not clog with ice even if covered with snow. This "spray" idea makes me nervous. What makes the spray? will it clog and burn out the pump or result in upstream flooding? If it's just water falling out the open end of the pipe, that is cool. Ideally the end of a permanent, rigid greywater pipe end is a few inches up, not resting on the ground, as solids can build up around the exit and obstruct it if the ground is right there. HORTICULTURAL ISSUES I doubt this will kill your grass, though if I knew where you were, the rainfall, soil type, etc. I could say better. Areas with both higher evapotranspiration than precipitation, and high clay content soils are the high risk ones. HEALTH ISSUES Is this grassy knoll the recipient of dirty diaper water? Is it the favored play area for the kids from the day care across the street? I suggest you review "Error: Cavalier disregard for legitimate public health concerns" in "greywater misinformation on the web", at to see how far your idea is out of line, health wise. I categorically recommend against above ground irrigation of grass with greywater as it violates the rule against applying greywater to foiliage. How serious of an issue this is depends on exacerbathing factors like the ones I mention above. A better idea for getting rid of the gw would be to dig a swale three feet wide and 10-20 feet long, fill it to overflowing with mulch, and dump the greywater in there. Hope this helps.... Art -- ************* Art Ludwig Oasis Design Ecological Design publishing & consulting E mail: Web site: 5 San Marcos Trout Club, Santa Barbara, CA 93105-9726, Fax: 805 967-3229 Phone: 967-9956 Please do not distribute our e mail address to the general public. ************* ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 21 08:48:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA02775 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA14025; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:29:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA13763 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA13759 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:29:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA19698 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:39:18 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:39:17 EDT From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Stucco - laths and problems To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199808210600.CAA05169@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4158 Interesting discussion about stucco lately. I too think it is a good siding material, but I also know that it has its share of problems. Galvanized mesh is the most common choice, but glass and polyethylene/acrylic fibres can work as well. Glass mesh is much more expensive than metal lath, and is not guaranteed to last in a highly alkaline environment (the glass mesh is made mostly for synthetic stuccos -- EIFS). Carbon fibre, kevlar etc are all too expensive. Poly is not stiff enough to reinforce the stucco (unitl after unacceptably large cracks form). Plastic fibres do little for the finished stucco (other than slightly improve its impact resistance) but do reduce the initial shrinkage cracks. Glass fibres greatly improve the tensile strength (to 400 to 1000 psi!), reduce initial and final shrinkage cracking, but may degrade over time as they are attacked by the alkalis. Special glass fiber (Type AR) reduce and delay this problem. RE: the mold and mildew problem, I would be interested in hearing some possible solutions and comments on this. I would think that cement-based stucco would be quite resistant, does Jilliana mean synthetic stuccos (EIFS)? One solution to the problem might be a yearly washing. Another solution that is used over concrete is white wash. The lime water mix will whiten the wall and the alkalinity will keep biological growth off the wall for a while. If done properly, stucco is a very durable, ecoomical, and high performance product. Done poorly, well .... In Vancouver Canada (just north of Seattle) we Canadians are having a bit of a disasater with stucco clad 3 and 4 storey wood frame walk ups. In this rainy and cool climate, things tend to get wet and stay wet. All kinds of bad details have been used in the hurry to meet the booming demand for housing, and the result is an estimated billion dollars of damage. Many people are facing 40 to 60K repair bills for their condos. I might add that other siding systems like unfurred wood and vinyl are also having problems, although stucco and EIFS are taking the brunt of the blame. The details of rain control are key, e.g., window sills (very important!), overhangs, proper eavestrough and roof wall intersections, balconies etc are the problems. Problems in service almost never come in the field of the wall. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 21 09:28:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04424 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:28:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15439; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:12:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:08:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15152 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:08:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15148 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPTAW; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:25:46 -0400 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDCCE4.1A378D60@Walnut.babb.com>; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:14:30 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDCCE4.1A378D60@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'Wayne D. Federer'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: CCA Treated Lumber Alternative Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:14:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA15149 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4159 Thank-you, Wayne, for the well-researched reply! I have a lot to learn, so I apologize to anyone if I say some foolish things sometimes. I only recently began my career in the building products industry... and I am quite astounded by the many environmental considerations of construction. However, I am very excited about the new possibilities created by intelligent, environmentally-conscious people (such as those I have encountered on this list!). The very real dangers of global warming, the rapid extinction of animal and insect species, etc... breaks my heart every day, but the problem-solving, cooperative information-sharing, and commitment to action expressed by this group gives me great hope. Okay, the speech is done... << On pp. 424-425 they suggest another alternative suitable for certain applications - a formulation developed at the USDA Forest Products Laboratory that is similar to the commercial product Thompson's Water Seal. It contains boiled linseed oil, paraffin wax, paint thinner solvent (perhaps an alternative could be used?), and copper-8-quinolinate if there will be wood-soil contact. Testing of this product in Madison, WI on windows and sashes indicated comparable performance to pentachlorophenol. >> I will look for more information about this product. Sounds like a great answer, especially if the solvent could be replaced (as you note) with an alternative... maybe something like the natural citrus-based solvents? Has anyone read "Designer Poisons : How to Protect Your Health and Home from Toxic Pesticides" by Marion Moses, M.D.? Sounds like a book worth reading. We are exposed to pesticides constantly, especially at work, in parks, and in other public areas... but that is not so easy to control, is it? Recently we had an ant invasion at our house... They moved in for about three weeks. There were thousands and thousands of them! Then, one day, the just disappeared from the house... I saw them outside, but not inside. A few days after that, I saw them moving their eggs... and we never poisoned them. They just decided to leave! With our cats eating the camel crickets, and the spiders eating the insects on our porch, we get along pretty well without pesticides...so far... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 21 11:12:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA00682 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:12:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20200; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:44:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:40:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19590 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:40:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19567 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:39:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.112]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 8407000 ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:37:45 -0800 Message-ID: <35DD887C.32321873@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 07:47:24 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Stucco - laths and problems References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4160 This has been an area of some thought and confusion for me. I've never appreciated (understood) the use of mesh or wire fabric in concrete or stucco applications. From what I can gather there is little strength gained and the primary function is holding the wall together as it fails. Fibre seems like it had the history and potential of being a little more proactive so I was happy to see John give a breakdown of various fibres. I was under the impression that more strength could be gained with plastic fibres especially nylon. The problem that remains for me is wanting to eliminate mesh from a wall specification and wanting to make use of a fibre reinforcement that provides sufficient tensile strenth to the wall so that the wall skin could be used structurally. I've also been looking for an alternative to metal bar and have had trouble finding suppliers. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 21 11:54:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01745 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:54:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22411; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:26:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:23:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21967 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:22:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.sprynet.com (m3.sprynet.com [165.121.1.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21963 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:22:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.175.229.105 (sf-dnpqk-105.compuserve.net [206.175.229.105]) by m3.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA04810; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:43:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35DD7B8E.16D2@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 06:52:16 -0700 From: Art Ludwig Reply-To: odesign@sprynet.com Organization: Oasis Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, sbtauto@juno.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Greywater information References: <35DCF67D.886@sprynet.com> <19980821.035733.3238.0.sbtauto@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4161 Steven D. Shepard wrote: > > Art, > > Thank you for your comprehensive and thoughtful response. My responses > to your great questions follows: > >I'm going to assume that you don't care about reusing the water, you > >just want to get rid of it, and that you don't care if the system is > >code-approved--let me know if this is not the case, as this changes > >things. > > No direct reuse planned except we are on the Trinity (Glen Rose) Aquifer > and I assume there will be some indirect recharge. > > > >HARDWARE ISSUES > >You don't want to burn out your pump or flood the area around your > >washer. What size is the drain pipe? > > I think 2" PVC should be fine, don't you? It would probably work, but 2" ABS would be preferred. ABS fittings are designed for wastewater. They feature more sweeping turns, and the hubs bell out so there is a smooth transition between pipe and fitting, unlike PVC where there is a sharp shoulder at the transition between pipe and fitting. I believe the cost is similar. > > Is it pressurized by the washing > >machine pump or is there an air gap where the drain hose goes in? > > It had not yet occurred to me to put in an air gap but I think it wise. > I plan to use a washing machine drain catch much like we have on the wall > now. A drain line sans air gap can siphon the water out of the machine even as it endlessly tries to refill itself...hardly a water conserving setup! > > > >This "spray" idea makes me nervous. What makes the spray? will it > >clog and burn out the pump or result in upstream flooding? > > I actually thought about running the pipe vertically about 6" and putting > a spray head on the end and distribute the water in a spray and/or mist > to the grass area. I noticed my washer really pumps out a lot of water > very fast. I am concerned a stream of water running out on the ground > from this thing will create erosion. The pump is a LOW HEAD, high flow pump. It would not appreciate the restriction of a sprinkler head, especially if it clogged. Of course, with the abovementioned air gap, the pump would not experience the flow restriction, it would simply pump water out the air gap and onto the laundry room floor! Best to dissiminate this energy in some other way. Burying the soil under a thick layer of mulch, for example. > > >HEALTH ISSUES > > > >Is this grassy knoll the recipient of dirty diaper water? > > Absolutely not. We are three adults. The area is 5-6' from the house. > > > A better idea for getting rid of the gw would be to dig a swale three > feet wide and 10-20 feet long, fill it to overflowing with mulch, and > dump the greywater in there. > > This is not even an option. Digging or trenching in this stuff is > painful medieval torture at best. Not to mention there is a 4' rock > embankment the other side of this grass area from the house that circles > around the entire south side of the house. I do have a french drain on > this west and on the east side of the house sloping down hill to the > north. If digging is an impossibility, just dumping a pile of mulch and applying the greywater at the uphill side of it would be second best. Good luck... Art ************* Art Ludwig Oasis Design Ecological Design publishing & consulting E mail: Web site: 5 San Marcos Trout Club, Santa Barbara, CA 93105-9726, Fax: 805 967-3229 Phone: 967-9956 Please do not distribute our e mail address to the general public. ************* ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 21 11:54:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01750 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:54:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22426; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:23:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21979 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:23:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.sprynet.com (m3.sprynet.com [165.121.1.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21975 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:23:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.175.229.105 (sf-dnpqk-105.compuserve.net [206.175.229.105]) by m3.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA04928 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35DD9606.65B7@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:45:21 -0700 From: Art Ludwig Reply-To: odesign@sprynet.com Organization: Oasis Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Questions for water filter gurus... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4162 Oh, water filter gurus... I'm straying outside of my area of experience to design and install a number of water filters, and I wonder if you can help guide the way...any and all suggestions on any point welcome. BIG RAIN WATER PARTICLE FILTER MEDIUM, DISINFECTION A filter for up to 15 gpm of rain from a big, clean roof. The water will be filtered, stored for up to eight months in a 7500 gal cistern, and used for laundry, dishes and drinking. There is a ferrocement filter box already made, about ten feet long by one foot wide by one foot deep. The water feeds in at one end at the top and out at the other end at the bottom. It has four two inch perforated pipes which run the length of the bottom, which slopes so that the thing will drain completely between rains. The inlet water can dump at one end, or be distributed across the length of the box in a 4" perforated pipe. I'm trying to filter out the occasional errant leaf and bird poop. My question is, what should I fill this box with? My tentative design is to barely cover the outlet manifold pipes with volcanic gravel (available in profusion locally and big enough that it won't slip through the holes), cover this with screen or filter fabric with holes smaller than sand (this is necessary, isn't it?), then fill the rest with sand. I would put clay tiles on the top surface of the sand if the inlet manifold makes jets that dig up the sand. Whaddja think? We are considering adding an ozone generator to the cistern for a disinfection step, a step which may or may not be necessary. It would be nice to power this with excess solar or hydro power dumped when the batteries are full, but I am not sure this is a suitable load. Anyone ever try this? CONSTRUCTED WETLAND GRAVEL TYPE I'm completing a small constructed wetland started by a another designer. It treats blackwater only, about 20 gal a day, has about 20 ft2 of surface area, and ranges from 18 to 24" deep. He specced 1/2" pea gravel, but I'm looking at this aforementioned volcanic gravel and wondering if it wouldn't be much better. It is available in different sizes (1/2 to 1" is the one that looks right to me) lasts forever, has very intricate, sponge or coral like shapes with probably several times the surface area per volume as compared to the smooth pea gravel, and half the water displacement. It's also lightweight and cheap. On the face of it, the higher surface area and lower displacement would apper to offer significantly better treatment and retention time. But for all I know, every wetland designer knows that vocanic gravel is death to wetlands for some reason...? DESIGN FOR SMALL FILTERS FOR WATER FROM CISTERN ROOFS These are three rain water particle filters designed to be incorporated in the cielings of three cisterns. One filter will filter the rain from the 1000 ft2 roof of a 100,000 gal cistern. Another will filter the rain from the 175 ft2 roof of an 8000 gallon cistern, and the last will fiter the rain from a 1000 ft2 house roof and 100 ft2 cistern roof. This last one is under oak trees; the others are expected to be pretty clean. One trick with these filters is that they don't really have vertical space to be in; the water source (cistern roof) is only a few inches above the storage. The only thing I can figure is to make them as low profile as possible, say 6" high, and just accept that the filter medium will be innundated for a while when the tank is all the way full. I envision mini-versions of the rain water filter above; a perforated pipe outlet covered with gravel, filter fabric, sand, and maybe a second layer of filter fabric to keep the sand from washing away and to enable the roof to be swept off without sweeping sand away. Sound OK? An added complication with these things is trying to figure out a way to divert initial dirty rain water away from them when they pretty much have to be hard plumbed to the lowest point of the cistern roof. The best I've been able to come up with so far is a system of outlets and bypasses plugged or unplugged with rubber stoppers, to prevent water from entering the storage when you don't want it. All these cisterns have other, pressurized water sources, so concievably these filters could be backwashed by overflowing the tank through them. Has anyone else dealt with this design problem and come up with a clever solution? Anyone have a rule of thumb for the suface area and depth of a single pass sand filter for a given flow? TANNIN REMOVAL The 100,000 gallon cistern above gets most of its water from a seasonal waterfall which discharges straight surface runoff. Especially early in the rainy season, it is the color of strong tea. I assume the color is from dissolved tannins, as it never settles out even after months in the big cistern. The community has been using this water as is for everything but drinking, but it wouldn't hurt to clean it up. There is a filter box on the roof of the cistern, 54 ft2 in area and about a foot deep. Would filling this with charcoal and running the water through this help? How much contact time is needed? When the water comes, it can really come fast; like 100 gpm, though it could be filled more slowly to get cleaner water. Thanks for considering my questions... Art ************* Art Ludwig Oasis Design Ecological Design publishing & consulting E mail: Web site: 5 San Marcos Trout Club, Santa Barbara, CA 93105-9726, Fax: 805 967-3229 Phone: 967-9956 Please do not distribute our e mail address to the general public. ************* ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 21 12:13:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA02110 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:13:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23919; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:45:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:41:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23449 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23436 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:41:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.198.23.9] (uA1-a8.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.9]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA18064 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:51:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35DD887C.32321873@cow-net.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:58:57 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Stucco - laths and problems Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4163 John, That matches my experience as well. The problems I've seen with stucco are adhesion problems when they are applied to surfaces which do not allow moisture passage, storage and drainage - e.g. plastic foams. Stucco and aprge coats applied directly to concrete block have worked very well for me for years. When I use it on plastic foams, I've always used galvanized metal lath. In regards to micro-fungi on stucco, I've mostly seen algae growth, not mold. The algae deals with UV a little better than mold. I've found penicilium growing on poured concrete indoors. Outdoors, the UV usually does for them, except where they are shaded (north walls and soffits). If the stucco is staying moist enough to support fungal growth, the water must be coming from somehwere and not drying out enough. The steps I'd take are to 1) be sure it's mold, 2) determine whether the moisture is from high outdoor RH, wind-sun driven moisture (a low perm on the interior and exterior surfaces can cause masonry walls to remain damp from these dynamics), capillary action from ground water, gutter, parapet or flashing leaks. Then I'd deal with the moisture source if possible. In new buildings, sometimes things like this turn out to be best addressed by seasonal sanitizing scrubs, - they become a maintenance issue. - Terry >This has been an area of some thought and confusion for me. I've never >appreciated (understood) the use of mesh or wire fabric in concrete or stucco >applications. From what I can gather there is little strength gained and the >primary function is holding the wall together as it fails. >Fibre seems like it had the history and potential of being a little more >proactive so I was happy to see John give a breakdown of various fibres. I was >under the impression that more strength could be gained with plastic fibres >especially nylon. > >The problem that remains for me is wanting to eliminate mesh from a wall >specification and wanting to make use of a fibre reinforcement that provides >sufficient tensile strenth to the wall so that the wall skin could be used >structurally. I've also been looking for an alternative to metal bar and have >had trouble finding suppliers. > >John > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 21 12:57:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03223 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:57:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27014; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:29:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:25:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26659 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:25:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hermes.pressenter.com (hermes.pressenter.com [198.150.192.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26655 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:25:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.213.111.36] (helo=wayne-s) by hermes.pressenter.com with smtp (Exim 2.01 #1) id 0z9uAI-000081-00; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:35:51 -0500 X-Sender: wdfvag@mail.pressenter.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:36:12 -0500 To: John Salmen , John Straube From: "Wayne D. Federer" Subject: Re: GBlist: Stucco - laths and problems Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <35DD887C.32321873@cow-net.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4164 To all, I have enjoyed the discussion about stucco, about which I knew nothing at all. But it just occurs to me that the use of wire mesh (or other metallic materials) brings up the same (little heard about but serious if you listen to the baubiologists) potential problems with electric or magnetic fields that arise when aluminum or steel siding are used. [See Part 1 of my treatise on "Healthy and 'Green' Exterior Siding (for Northern Climates)".] At the very least, I would hope the wire mesh is totally electrically grounded, but this will do nothing for the distortion of earth's magnetic field if it is steel which is easily magnetized. But preferably nonmetallic fibers or mesh would be used instead. Wayne Wayne Federer Brambleberry Run Associates brambleberry@pressenter.com ----------------------- At 07:47 AM 8/21/98 -0700, John Salmen wrote: >This has been an area of some thought and confusion for me. I've never >appreciated (understood) the use of mesh or wire fabric in concrete or stucco >applications. From what I can gather there is little strength gained and the >primary function is holding the wall together as it fails. >Fibre seems like it had the history and potential of being a little more >proactive so I was happy to see John give a breakdown of various fibres. I was >under the impression that more strength could be gained with plastic fibres >especially nylon. > >The problem that remains for me is wanting to eliminate mesh from a wall >specification and wanting to make use of a fibre reinforcement that provides >sufficient tensile strenth to the wall so that the wall skin could be used >structurally. I've also been looking for an alternative to metal bar and have >had trouble finding suppliers. > >John > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 21 15:10:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05648 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:10:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA04097; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:43:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:39:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03748 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA03738 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:38:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.140]) by bossie.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 2472100 ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:25:33 -0800 Message-ID: <35DDBD36.F4DFEEC4@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:32:22 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Brennan CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Stucco - laths and problems References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4165 Unfortunately the structure we are planning is a foam core wall with interior and exterior masonry skins (gunnite applied), essentially a synthetic version of strawbale application with foam replacing the straw. The concern (as in strawbale) is moisture passage. The key in strawbale construction has been breathability of the skins. Traditional finishes (especially lime mortar finishes) have had some interesting properties allowing for a structural elasticity. Unfortunately this is not a simple structure and will have to be designed with some conventional known engineering values. My concern is that skins designed for 2story load bearing application are going to be designed for stiffness and the resulting mix will have thickness, a higher mpa and will be that much less breathable. The foam will retain and release a % of moisture especially in the lower densitities and I'm having trouble determining is this is a potential benefit or drawback. I prefer to see it as a benefit as I've seen moisture running on foam untill it finds a penetration at which point it becomes a leak. I would prefer the skin in direct contact (i.e. bonded) to the foam but I'm wondering if it might be prudent to consider a drainage plane ???? John Terry Brennan wrote: > John, > > That matches my experience as well. The problems I've seen with stucco are > adhesion problems when they are applied to surfaces which do not allow > moisture passage, storage and drainage - e.g. plastic foams. Stucco and > aprge coats applied directly to concrete block have worked very well for me > for years. When I use it on plastic foams, I've always used galvanized > metal lath. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 21 15:52:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA06323 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:52:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06787; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:24:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:20:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06527 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06521 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from .sover.net (pm0a21.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.149]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA02088 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35DDEE68.18D@sover.net> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:02:16 -0700 From: Cindy Blakeslee X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Stucco References: <35DDBD36.F4DFEEC4@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4166 For any of you not familiar with it, you may want to check out discussions on stucco on another CREST list serv -- the one on strawbale. The archive is at http://solstice.crest.org/efficiency/strawbale-list-archive/index.html Cindy Blakeslee The Center for Sustainable Building Vermont ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 21 16:56:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA08148 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:56:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09650; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:28:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:25:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA09334 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:24:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09330 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:24:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay1.mnsinc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA23309 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:35:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:34:27 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: dwv comment Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4167 980821 One poster just commented that ABS (black) was better for dwv (drain, waste, vent) that PVC because it had better angles, etc. I believe the poster was thinking of supply pvc (or cpvc) rather than DWV PVC, which is available in the same configs as ABS, and at least in our area, is much MORE available. Only plumbing supply houses in the Richmond, VA, area have ABS, but all stores like HQ/HDepot/Lowes have PVC DWV piping. The water supply pvc is much more squared and angular, and not suitable for gravity flows like waste. Just FYI from a prolific amateur plumber. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 21 18:45:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA10136 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:45:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA13918; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:18:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:13:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13640 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:13:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (root@wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13636 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip426.efn.org [206.163.181.170]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA25931; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:20:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert Bolman" To: "Green building list" , "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: dwv comment Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:48:25 -0700 Message-ID: <01bdcd4d$6cb63be0$aab5a3ce@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4168 In my area I find ABS to be at least as available as PVC waste piping. My main reason for using it though is that I consider PVC to be a much more sinister plastic. It contains Vinyl Chloride a known human carcinogen. Robert Bolman >One poster just commented that ABS (black) was better for dwv (drain, >waste, vent) that PVC because it had better angles, etc. I believe the >poster was thinking of supply pvc (or cpvc) rather than DWV PVC, which is >available in the same configs as ABS, and at least in our area, is much >MORE available. Only plumbing supply houses in the Richmond, VA, area have >ABS, but all stores like HQ/HDepot/Lowes have PVC DWV piping. The water >supply pvc is much more squared and angular, and not suitable for gravity >flows like waste. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 21 19:27:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA10568 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:27:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA15894; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 19:00:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:56:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA15575 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:56:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.sprynet.com (m3.sprynet.com [165.121.2.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15571 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 18:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 209.154.103.7 (sf-dnpqq-007.compuserve.net [209.154.103.7]) by m3.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA27296 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:16:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35DDFFF4.8AF@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:17:10 -0700 From: Art Ludwig Reply-To: odesign@sprynet.com Organization: Oasis Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: PVC vs ABS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4169 I think it was my posting that sparked the PVC comment. From a functional standpoint, sanitary PVC is equivalient to ABS and fine with me. I don't know how its ecological pedigree compares with that of ABS, but I'd be interested. The Mexican "PVC sanitario," the version I am most familiar with, is much lighter weight than ABS, which presumably is an ecological advantage. I play an ABS didgeridoo, another reason to learn more about the health considerations around this stuff! I recently met a young couple from Lake Charles, LA; the PVC and contaminated water capital of the Americas, as they described it. Since talking with them about growing up in this place I've been carefully scrutinizing my designs for opportunities to use less, smaller plastic pipe, though most often this is in direct conflict with some aspect of functionality or durability. Art ************* Art Ludwig Oasis Design Ecological Design publishing & consulting E mail: Web site: 5 San Marcos Trout Club, Santa Barbara, CA 93105-9726, Fax: 805 967-3229 Phone: 967-9956 Please do not distribute our e mail address to the general public. ************* ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 21 22:19:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA12242 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:19:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21505; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 21:52:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 21 Aug 1998 21:48:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA21228 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 21:47:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hermes.pressenter.com (hermes.pressenter.com [198.150.192.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA21223 for ; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 21:47:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.213.111.33] (helo=wayne-s) by hermes.pressenter.com with smtp (Exim 2.01 #1) id 0zA2wW-0002Lz-00; Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:58:12 -0500 X-Sender: wdfvag@mail.pressenter.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:58:33 -0500 To: odesign@sprynet.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Wayne D. Federer" Subject: Re: GBlist: PVC In-Reply-To: <35DDFFF4.8AF@sprynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4170 For info. on the scandalous "ecological pedigree" of PVC, see the Greenpeace links I included in Part 1 of my recent treatise on "Healthy and Green Exterior Siding ..." (Of course, vinyl siding is PVC.) Wayne Wayne Federer Brambleberry Run Associates brambleberry@pressenter.com ----------------- At 04:17 PM 8/21/98 -0700, Art Ludwig wrote: >I think it was my posting that sparked the PVC comment. From a >functional standpoint, sanitary PVC is equivalient to ABS and fine with >me. > >I don't know how its ecological pedigree compares with that of ABS, but >I'd be interested. The Mexican "PVC sanitario," the version I am most >familiar with, is much lighter weight than ABS, which presumably is an >ecological advantage. I play an ABS didgeridoo, another reason to learn >more about the health considerations around this stuff! > >I recently met a young couple from Lake Charles, LA; the PVC and >contaminated water capital of the Americas, as they described it. Since >talking with them about growing up in this place I've been carefully >scrutinizing my designs for opportunities to use less, smaller plastic >pipe, though most often this is in direct conflict with some aspect of >functionality or durability. > >Art > >************* >Art Ludwig >Oasis Design >Ecological Design publishing & consulting >E mail: Web site: > >5 San Marcos Trout Club, Santa Barbara, CA 93105-9726, Fax: 805 967-3229 >Phone: 967-9956 >Please do not distribute our e mail address to the general public. >************* > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Aug 22 07:44:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA15190 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 07:44:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA03401; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 07:17:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 22 Aug 1998 07:12:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA03185 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 07:12:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA03181 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 07:12:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from flash.net (p31.amax1.dialup.sat1.flash.net [209.30.90.31]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA14672 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 06:22:33 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35DEAA55.BEA0559C@flash.net> Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 06:24:05 -0500 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding List Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding References: <199808191833.SAA17148@nov.diac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4171 Buzz Burrell wrote: > On 8/18/98 10:05 AM Wayne Federer wrote: > > >In Part 1, I discussed the pros and cons of conventional siding materials. > > As explained in Part 1, I seek your input on these and other materials to > >replace existing cedar lap siding. (much snipped) > > Strangly, in this excellent and very long review of siding materials, not > a mention was made of what is BY FAR the most common siding system, > currently as well as thruout the history of civilization: stucco. Its > used all over the world, in most climates, and appears in many forms, > compositions, and price ranges. The good qualities you like in > Hardiplank are those that emulate stucco. Try it, you'll like it. > > Buzz Burrell > Boulder, CO > > (Has any one else ever noticed that 90% of the List Subscribers seem to > be from New England or Canada? Am I the sole voice in the wilderness > from the great SW?) > Buzz, I live in a stucco house and generally am pleased with my choice. Mine's stick-built, with 1" foam and chicken wire under the stucco. I noted in a couple of other replies, questions regarding water leakage and difficulty of remodeling. I do know that water control is critical -- I just had part of the front of my house ripped out and replaced. Rain was leaking in from the top of an inside window sill. Seems some nitwit got the flashing wrong over the hip roof of the porch and it was directing water in behind the stucco. This could have happened with any exterior system, but those excellent sealing qualities of stucco kept the water from running right back out. Point is: it's a fine exterior covering, but get the flashing, etc. right. Remodeling -- I do all my own work in that area and am presently debating whether to hire a stucco applicator (stucco installer?, stuccoer?, stucco dude?) to finish around added windows, etc. or to learn the procedure myself. Why don't more folks use it? Well, until I moved to south Texas (yep, another one out of the New England cold), I had heard only one thing about stucco. That was an old Amos and Andy dialog that goes something like: "I hear you bought a new stucco house." "Yeah." "Well, I guess dat make you de STUCCEE." Amazing, the odd stuff that gets stuck (no pun intended) in one's mind. Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Aug 22 13:54:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16983 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:54:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13219; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:26:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:22:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA12941 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12937 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:21:59 -0400 (EDT) From: DocPanic@aol.com Received: from DocPanic@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1DPUa03887 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:31:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <7c3effc3.35df007b@aol.com> Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:31:38 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Greenbuilding South NJ shore Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4172 I'm new to the list and a novice in my understanding of Greenbuilding. I need some help in finding an architect and builder to build a beach home in Avalon, NJ utilizing green techniques and materials. Having rid our home of all toxic cleaning products and having realized many positive health benefits from this change, we do not want to build a home with formaldehyde and other toxins. Our problem is that we are definitely not DIY'ers (the project is too big). The people we have talked to so far do not know much about green building so we find ourselves educating them with the little that we know. I would appreciate any help/contacts that could be offered to us. Thanks David Shaw docpanic@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Aug 22 14:08:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA17053 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13935; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:40:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:37:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA13453 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:36:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13449 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.113] (ub16.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.113]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA13210 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:46:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35DDBD36.F4DFEEC4@cow-net.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:59:02 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Stucco - laths and problems Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4173 John, Interesting problem. MOIST will do a pretty good job of the capillary and partial pressure issues, but isn't really up to the wind driven rain - sun driven partial pressure stuff. In the Northeast I've encountered a couple of cases where this dynamic became important (I usually see it in the Gulf Coast states). In cold climates it seems to happening in these situations - concrete block wall, interior foil faced or extruded foam board. The concrete block ends up saturated - rusting metal hardware and molding sheetrock in contact with it. Exterior paints with perms of 2 or so are "blown off" the southwest to northwest walls, are fine where they are protected from sun and rain by overhangs (block is dry in these locations too). Paints with 20 perms or so stay on fine. It seems to make things worse if the block cores are filled with foam. I think Armin Rudd and Gu at FSEC could make a pretty good model of the dynamic by tricking the FSEC simulation. Expanded styrene board may be permeable enough to let the wall dry to the inside during the summer and the outside during the winter. Is ther a simple way you can get a drainage plane or vent cavity in there? Let's keep chatting about it. - Terry >Unfortunately the structure we are planning is a foam core wall with >interior and >exterior masonry skins (gunnite applied), essentially a synthetic version of >strawbale application with foam replacing the straw. The concern (as in >strawbale) >is moisture passage. The key in strawbale construction has been >breathability of >the skins. Traditional finishes (especially lime mortar finishes) have had >some >interesting properties allowing for a structural elasticity. > >Unfortunately this is not a simple structure and will have to be designed >with some >conventional known engineering values. My concern is that skins designed >for 2story >load bearing application are going to be designed for stiffness and the >resulting >mix will have thickness, a higher mpa and will be that much less >breathable. The >foam will retain and release a % of moisture especially in the lower >densitities >and I'm having trouble determining is this is a potential benefit or >drawback. I >prefer to see it as a benefit as I've seen moisture running on foam untill >it finds >a penetration at which point it becomes a leak. I would prefer the skin in >direct >contact (i.e. bonded) to the foam but I'm wondering if it might be prudent to >consider a drainage plane > >???? >John > >Terry Brennan wrote: > >> John, >> >> That matches my experience as well. The problems I've seen with stucco are >> adhesion problems when they are applied to surfaces which do not allow >> moisture passage, storage and drainage - e.g. plastic foams. Stucco and >> aprge coats applied directly to concrete block have worked very well for me >> for years. When I use it on plastic foams, I've always used galvanized >> metal lath. >> ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Aug 22 22:08:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20508 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:08:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA01423; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:41:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:36:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA00937 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:36:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA00926 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:36:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.167] (rkd39.acadia.net [205.217.217.167]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id TAA14331 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:21:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:21:17 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Stucco - laths and problems Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4174 Wayne Federer wrote: >To all, I have enjoyed the discussion about stucco, about which I knew >nothing at all. But it just occurs to me that the use of wire mesh (or >other metallic materials) brings up the same (little heard about but >serious if you listen to the baubiologists) potential problems with >electric or magnetic fields that arise when aluminum or steel siding are >used. -end of quote This is interesting, and has been mentioned before. When I look for any objective evidence of the phenomenon, I can't find any. There are concerns which arise by deduction if one accepts some of the premises of Baubiologie or other philosophies. Can anyone cite any documented instances of electromagnetic field distortion from metals in a building? Does the same hold true of, for instance, cars? Any information would be illuminating. Thanks. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Aug 22 22:42:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20699 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA02896; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:14:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:10:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA02646 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:10:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02640 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:10:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.134]) by bossie.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3099800 ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 17:19:30 -0800 Message-ID: <35DF58F6.3566667F@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 16:49:10 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Brennan CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: wall lathers and problems (was) Stucco - laths and problems References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4175 Hi Terry I guess that's the problem I don't want this to be an interesting problem in the future. There are a lot of concrete encapsulated foam walls out there (precast stuff) and I wonder how they are doing. Major rain issues can probably be covered well in detailing and by and large the material choices will deal well with the odd defect (i.e. no rot at least) my concern is as you mention moisture drawn into the walls by pressure and capillary draw and my real concern is that the exterior wall will blast off as a result and short of that there will be nice little puddles developing in odd spots in the interior. The always available simple means to creating a drainage plane is to spend more money. Changing the wall detail by incorporating a drain mat (but I dislike having to introduce yet another material as a bumper in what was conceived as a simple wall), or having drainage planes cut into the foam or using a geofoam with greater porosity. Another alternative is going to a rigid rock wool as apposed to an eps foam but I have no idea as to how this material works as a wall insulation and barrier. Modeling sounds useful and I hopefully can bumble my way through MOIST as I'm getting close to having to finalize a wall detail. The wall design cost for a continuous foam wall (about r30) with about 4" of concrete overall would seem to be about 20% more than a conventional framed r20 wall and that should be a generous allowance. I like the basic notion of concrete structural skins with an insulating core for their basic simplicity and potential longevity; build a foam wall, support it and gunnite it, strip the supports and repeat for the interior. There is just the appropriate amount of complexity and stress for those involved (in other words the skills and tools are out there on a fairly generic and affordable basis and depending on whether one values machines or people the material can be sprayed or hand applied) I would like to keep the chatting on this going as it hearkens to earlier discussions on exterior building systems (wood, appropriateness and all that). Regardless of the fact that the exterior shell is a small component of the overall it is what our imagination builds upon (and it seems to dictate what follows). thanks for responding Terry, best John Terry Brennan wrote: > John, > > Interesting problem. MOIST will do a pretty good job of the capillary and > partial pressure issues, but isn't really up to the wind driven rain - sun > driven partial pressure stuff. In the Northeast I've encountered a couple > of cases where this dynamic became important (I usually see it in the Gulf > Coast states). In cold climates it seems to happening in these situations > - concrete block wall, interior foil faced or extruded foam board. The > concrete block ends up saturated - rusting metal hardware and molding > sheetrock in contact with it. Exterior paints with perms of 2 or so are > "blown off" the southwest to northwest walls, are fine where they are > protected from sun and rain by overhangs (block is dry in these locations > too). Paints with 20 perms or so stay on fine. It seems to make things > worse if the block cores are filled with foam. I think Armin Rudd and Gu > at FSEC could make a pretty good model of the dynamic by tricking the FSEC > simulation. Expanded styrene board may be permeable enough to let the wall > dry to the inside during the summer and the outside during the winter. Is > ther a simple way you can get a drainage plane or vent cavity in there? > Let's keep chatting about it. - Terry > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Aug 22 23:48:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA21134 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 23:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04641; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 23:20:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 22 Aug 1998 23:16:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA04368 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 23:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hermes.pressenter.com (hermes.pressenter.com [198.150.192.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA04360 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 23:16:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.213.111.81] (helo=wayne-s) by hermes.pressenter.com with smtp (Exim 2.01 #1) id 0zAQnk-0000j3-00; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:26:44 -0500 X-Sender: wdfvag@mail.pressenter.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:27:02 -0500 To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley), greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Wayne D. Federer" Subject: Re: GBlist: Stucco - laths and problems In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4176 David, Unfortunately I'm just leaving on vacation and have ~1 minute to respond, but I'd like to give your question justice when I return in about a week. But quickely, the answer is "yes," especially Wolfgang Maes in Germany (and his books in German). Unfortunately, there is little formally published work. But there is solid evidence from measurements that magnetic or electric fields can be influenced. And many anecdotes of certain sensitive people's health problems being miraculously resolved when they the objectionable environment is remediated. You're absolutely right, however, a lot more work needs to be done and results disseminated. I too want to see more results, more good science. Wayne Wayne D. Federer Brambleberry Run Associates brambleberry@pressenter.com ------------------ At 07:21 PM 8/22/98 -0400, David M. Foley wrote: >Wayne Federer wrote: >>To all, I have enjoyed the discussion about stucco, about which I knew >>nothing at all. But it just occurs to me that the use of wire mesh (or >>other metallic materials) brings up the same (little heard about but >>serious if you listen to the baubiologists) potential problems with >>electric or magnetic fields that arise when aluminum or steel siding are >>used. >-end of quote > >This is interesting, and has been mentioned before. When I look for any >objective evidence of the phenomenon, I can't find any. There are concerns >which arise by deduction if one accepts some of the premises of Baubiologie >or other philosophies. Can anyone cite any documented instances of >electromagnetic field distortion from metals in a building? Does the same >hold true of, for instance, cars? Any information would be illuminating. >Thanks. > > >David Foley >Holland and Foley Building Design >232 Beech Hill Road >Northport, Maine USA 04849 >p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 23 00:37:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21587 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:37:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA06208; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:10:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:06:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA05662 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:06:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA05653 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:05:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip12.ivnet.net [206.101.73.172]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17353; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:15:09 -0700 Message-ID: <35DCD2E6.2BD690BE@ivnet.net> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:52:39 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Brennan CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4177 Terry Brennan wrote: I always used > galvanized metal lath on exterior stucco jobs because it greatly delayed > the day when rust would appear on the stucco surface (in the humid > northeast anyway). Does anyone know of a glass fiber or thermplastic lath > that can be used on the exterior? > Terry: I used to work in California, sometimes right on the beach. The high salt content in the air, and the continuous wind-driven spray, would often rot out the old expanded metal stucco lath. I've never seen a fiberglass lath, but the "Stucco-Rite" lath, with a heavy-gauge wire 2" o.c., seemed to have exceptional resistance to corrosion. Second best was self-furring chicken wire. Sometimes I wonder about the salt content in the stucco sand, whether it was washed well enough or not. Check with me if you need more information. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 23 00:38:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21593 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:38:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA06225; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:10:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:06:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA05676 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:06:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA05661 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 00:06:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip12.ivnet.net [206.101.73.172]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17358; Sat, 22 Aug 1998 21:15:14 -0700 Message-ID: <35DE5DD1.BE6BEF8C@ivnet.net> Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:57:37 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen CC: John Straube , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Stucco - laths and problems References: <35DD887C.32321873@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4178 I once worked on an old apartment building over garages. It was stuccoed with chicken wire lath over typical wood framing without plywood. Two large garage door headers shared a common 4x6 post which had been thoroughly eaten by termites. As I passed my hand through this post with my bare hands, my buddy recoiled with horror as he assumed the building would collapse. Actually, the post had contributed nothing to the structure for some time, the stucco on the wall had assumed the entire load! Stucco can have quite a significant strength, but is not generally calculated for shear strenght, because if it buckles off the wall at all it will crumble easily. Proper attachment of the lath is important for a good stucco job. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon John Salmen wrote: > > This has been an area of some thought and confusion for me. I've never > appreciated (understood) the use of mesh or wire fabric in concrete or stucco > applications. From what I can gather there is little strength gained and the > primary function is holding the wall together as it fails. > Fibre seems like it had the history and potential of being a little more > proactive so I was happy to see John give a breakdown of various fibres. I was > under the impression that more strength could be gained with plastic fibres > especially nylon. > > The problem that remains for me is wanting to eliminate mesh from a wall > specification and wanting to make use of a fibre reinforcement that provides > sufficient tensile strenth to the wall so that the wall skin could be used > structurally. I've also been looking for an alternative to metal bar and have > had trouble finding suppliers. > > John > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 23 02:34:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA22341 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 02:34:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA09360; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 02:07:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 23 Aug 1998 02:03:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA08991 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 02:02:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seinfeld.arrowstreet.com (root@seinfeld.arrowstreet.com [207.244.75.194]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA08982 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 02:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from arrowstreet.com (snowwhite.arrowstreet.com [192.168.1.2]) by seinfeld.arrowstreet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA16536 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 01:12:17 -0400 Received: from ARROWSTREET-Message_Server by arrowstreet.com with Novell_GroupWise; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 02:09:12 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 02:08:57 -0400 From: Tony Vogel To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: greenbuilding-digest V2 #284 -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4179 I am on vacation and will be out of the office until September 14. I will not see your e-mail until I return. Anthony Vogel Arrowstreet Inc. P.S. In my absence, please direct all Providence Place inquiries to John Shortall. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 23 07:36:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA23343 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 07:36:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA14110; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 07:08:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 23 Aug 1998 07:04:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA13874 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 07:04:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA13870 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 07:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.201.88] (usr2a88.burl.sover.net [207.136.201.88]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA09873; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 07:14:46 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BDCB54.F3B8AE20@Walnut.babb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 07:10:57 -0400 To: Jillanna Babb From: Nadav Malin Subject: RE: GBlist: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding (for Northern Climates) -Part 2 Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4180 Hi Jillanna and others, Thanks for sharing with us about your forthcoming flyash AAC. I don't mean to knock your product at all, and I think AAC is a great material, but I do have a concern that I'm hoping you and others on the list can help me sort out-- We've been promoting the use of flyash in concrete, because it can replace a portion of the cement, which is very energy intensive and polluting to produce. (See our 1993 article for details: http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Features/CemConc/CementConc.html) In AAC block, however, my understanding is that the flyash just replaces sand. Since sand is a much lower-impact material to acquire than cement, this benefit is not as significant. More importantly, by using the accumulated mountains of flyash from coal power plants, are you helping keep a destructive technology alive. Given the realities of global warming (not to mention acid rain, etc.) it seems that the sooner coal is extinguished as a fuel for generating electricity, the better. One factor might be that the industry is choking on its own flyash waste. I don't know how significant this problem is economically, but it seems that by helping them solve this problem you might be doing the atmosphere and global climate a disservice. I'm curious to know if the use of flyash has any impact, positive or negative, on the amount of cement in your AAC. And I'd like to hear from anyone on the broader issue of coal and flyash. Thanks, Nadav At 9:37 AM -0400 8/19/98, Jillanna Babb wrote: >I work for Babb Cellular Concrete, a Georgia company that recently began >operating a Flyash AAC plant. The plant is small, built mainly for >research and design. We are building a large production plant in >Tennessee within the next year. The plant will be located on the site of >the Bull Run fossil plant, and will use up to 100,000 tons of Flyash per >year for the manufacture of Autoclaved Cellular Concrete. >Basically, Flyash AAC is the gray cousin to Sand AAC (made only by Hebel >(http://www.hebel.com) and Ytong (http://www.ytong.com) in the United >States). The main difference is that we use flyash, a byproduct of coal >burning that is now landfilled in huge quantities in the United States. > >Please consult the Babb Cellular Concrete web (http://www.babb.com/BCC) >for more details. > >I admit that I am biased, since my family's business is making AAC. But I >am personally impressed with the new building material. It not only >recycles a waste product, but also possesses excellent characteristics. >(Please see the website for more comprehensive details. Our links page >(http://www.babb.com/BCC/links.htm) provides a long list of Internet >resources of interest to anyone researching AAC. > Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 23 12:03:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24447 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:03:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19443; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:35:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:30:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA19127 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:30:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19123 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:30:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on5-24.netcom.ca [207.181.91.88]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25698; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:35:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199808231535.LAA25698@tor-smtp2.netcom.ca> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 10:33:22 -0400 To: Nadav Malin From: Norbert Senf Subject: RE: GBlist: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding (for Northern Climates) -Part 2 Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: References: <01BDCB54.F3B8AE20@Walnut.babb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4181 At 07:10 AM 23/08/98 -0400, Nadav Malin wrote: (snip) >More importantly, by using the accumulated mountains of flyash from coal >power plants, are you helping keep a destructive technology alive. Given >the realities of global warming (not to mention acid rain, etc.) it seems >that the sooner coal is extinguished as a fuel for generating electricity, >the better. (snip) And I'd like to hear from >anyone on the broader issue of coal and flyash. > Not much to add on flyash, but, as the owner of a sugar maple forest that is the direct recipient of trans-border acid rain from Ohio Valley dirty coal plants that were grandfathered by EPA (on the theory that they would soon be replaced by new technology, which they weren't), three cheers for shutting them down, NOW! Best........Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 23 13:19:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA24890 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:19:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21875; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:52:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:47:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21531 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:46:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21519 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:46:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa7-p46.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.174]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA06779; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:56:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35E0497C.2695A091@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 12:55:24 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Sullivan CC: "Beverly A. Weiter" , Green Building Subject: Re: GBlist: Net-Metering in Greenport References: <1309195010-511074@irisinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4182 Bruce Sullivan wrote: > > > I just heard that United Solar is now shipping their version of the PV > shingle. They also have an architectural standing seam metal version. > Both Atlantis and Uni-solar (along with a few others) can be found in the > REDI database by searching for "photovoltaic > roofing". > > Bruce Has anyone on the list had any dealings with United Solar, in particular their SSR version of PV roofing? I have a client very interested in adding some to the roof we are installing for them and the 16" Unisolar pans would fit in perfectly. Any remarks on their products and service would be helpful. Please respond directly, I don't want to use this list for advertising. Thanks. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 23 13:35:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25219 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:35:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22724; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:08:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:03:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22403 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:02:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22399 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:02:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uymfdlvk (dial-32-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.32]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA02320 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:13:12 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980823131221.007b2200@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:12:21 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re:Stucco over foam wall In-Reply-To: <199808230600.CAA08745@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4183 >From: John Salmen >>Unfortunately the structure we are planning is a foam core wall with >>interior and >>exterior masonry skins (gunnite applied), essentially a synthetic version of >>strawbale application with foam replacing the straw. The concern (as in >>strawbale) >>is moisture passage. The key in strawbale construction has been >>breathability of >>the skins. Traditional finishes (especially lime mortar finishes) have had >>some >>interesting properties allowing for a structural elasticity. John -- Am I off-base in being concerned about differential coefficients of thermal expansion of stucco and foam? It seems to me the foam could expand and crack the gunnite skin. Is this a concern? Is it possible to make the stucco thick enough to be able to resist this? Or do you compensate for the different rates of expansion in some way? There is an architect near here who has built a very beautiful dome of extruded polystyrene skinned both sides with a trowelled on concrete mixture. When I visited it, I could see cracks in both the interior and exterior concrete that made me nervous. Freeze/thaw cycles would seem to exacerbate this problem. We do see an occasional earth tremor in Vermont, and I was put in mid of Ken Kearn's untimely end in a collapsed unreinforced concrete dome of his own creation. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT 05602 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 23 19:46:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA28787 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:46:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA03874; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:19:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:13:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA03613 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:13:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03602 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:13:13 -0400 (EDT) From: JNH2@aol.com Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1CHVa11435 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:23:03 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5684465d.35e0a458@aol.com> Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 19:23:03 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding (for NorthernClimates) -Part 2 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4184 If we got everyone in the concrete business to somehow decide that flyash was the best admixture since portland, then PERHAPS we would be promoting the production of flyash - as it stands there as so many professionals that will tolerate NO flyash in their approved concrete mixtures it seems far and away unreasonably silly to believe that it's use will promote coal burning. Far from it - we have so many mountains of this junk that any use that will encapsulate it and keep it from leaching nasties into the ground is a positive move - personally I usually specify an allowable limit of 12% in standard concrete, not to exceed 10% in high strength concrete (above 6000psi) Where can we find good science on the benefit of flyash as a pozzolan, to counter the conventional wisdom that leans much more towards flyash being a cheaper alternative, often associated with surface spalling and crazing? Thanks, Jim Holdcraft St. Louis ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 00:01:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA01096 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:01:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10970; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:33:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:26:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA10476 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:26:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA10468 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:26:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000008536; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:36:54 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980824033940.006c7218@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:39:40 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Moisture under metal roof Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4185 After three weeks underground so to speak, while we prepare and watch over the raising of our SIP cabin (the subject for another note), I have a question for the groupto which I would appreciate reasoned responses. We are putting a consealed fastened metal roof on the structure, a process that requires 30 # felt underneath. The subsurface is OSB. I am concerned about the eventual moisture that might accumulate under the metal roof that would rot the OSB. My concern is based on the fact that while the SIP roof was originally supposed to be 6 1/2 inches of EPS, once the I beam splines were installed and extra EPS was routed out to make the splicing together of these easy, the roof has less that the 6 1/2 inches at the four foot splines, ie there are holes around the I beams where warm air could rise from the interior. Hence my concern about the moisture problem. Should I be concerned? And if so, what to do about a future problem? Thanks, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 00:01:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA01101 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:01:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10974; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:33:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:27:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA10485 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA10475 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000003116; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:36:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980824033942.006aa2b8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:39:42 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: greywater in the winter Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4186 I am plumbing a separate line for the greywater from the bathroom sink and the shower to be distributed downhill via a simple perforated pipe system to the trees and plants that grow below our cabin (we're on a hill). I have presumed that I can't do this during the winter when I have assumed the outlet will freeze. Am I correct? If so, have any of you had experience with the Jade catalogue's three-way valve that is sold for the purpose of diverting water? My concern is an residual water in the lines that might sit there fermenting for months. Suggestions? Or is a winter greywater system workable? We're in Kansas, where it normally freezes during the winter months and sometimes stays there for a while. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 01:17:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA01838 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 01:17:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA13321; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:50:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:45:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA13012 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:45:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from animas.frontier.net (root@frontier.net [199.45.141.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13007 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:45:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from frontier.net (dro-2-58.frontier.net [199.45.211.58]) by animas.frontier.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA30227 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:55:31 -0600 Message-ID: <35E0F227.AF558DE8@frontier.net> Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:55:04 -0600 From: Barry Goldberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: pathway materials References: <199808230600.CAA08745@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4187 Hello everyone, Our cohousing project is discussing what to use to create the pathway that goes down the middle of our community. It'll be the main walkway between houses and the common house. Mostly foot traffic, but an occasional car or truck delivery, or in case of emergency, a fire truck or ambulance. It'll be wide enough to accomodate those vehicles. Other criteria are easy on the feet, bikeable for young and old, easy to shovel snow( we are in Colorado), easy maintenance, and esthetically pleasing, if possible. The main choice seems to be concrete, but I'm looking for suggestions of alternative materials, keeping in mind affordability. I like the idea of paving stones, but it seems like that would be prohibitably expensive for the amount of walkway we are looking at, which is probably about a 1/4 mile total. Also, I'm not sure pavers would hold up. Thanks in advance for any input. -- Barry Goldberg barryg@frontier.net Durango,Co San Juan Cohousing, near Durango, CO, where we're looking for a few more folks. Check us out at: http://www.sanjuancohousing.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 01:26:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA01910 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 01:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA13886; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:58:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:54:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA13460 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:54:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.sprynet.com (m3.sprynet.com [165.121.1.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13456 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:54:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.175.97.210 (hil-dnptg-044.oh.compuserve.net [206.175.103.44]) by m3.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA15500; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35E0F6D3.422A@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 14:29:13 -0700 From: Art Ludwig Reply-To: odesign@sprynet.com Organization: Oasis Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: greywater in the winter References: <1.5.4.32.19980824033942.006aa2b8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4188 David F. Lambertson wrote: > > I am plumbing a separate line for the greywater from the bathroom > sink and the shower to be distributed downhill via a simple perforated pipe > system to the trees and plants that grow below our cabin (we're on a hill). > I have presumed that I can't do this during the winter when I have assumed > the outlet will freeze. Am I correct? > If so, have any of you had experience with the Jade catalogue's > three-way valve that is sold for the purpose of diverting water? My > concern is an residual water in the lines that might sit there fermenting > for months. Suggestions? Or is a winter greywater system workable? We're > in Kansas, where it normally freezes during the winter months and sometimes > stays there for a while. > Sacie Lambertson > Here's a few thoughts... 1) Perforated pipe as distribution Check "greywater misinformation on the web "http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/odesign/misinfo.html for reasons not to use perforated pipe. 2) Freezing I personally don's see much frost but my understaning is that greywater reuse all winter long is feasible with the right system. On page 11 of my book "create an oasis with greywater" seven systems of twenty are considered adaptable for freezing. 3) Three way valve If these are Jandy valves, they are the best available (though still a ways from ideal). On page 35 of my book is a simple, homemade automatic switch between close to surface and below frost level distribution options, along with other info on cold climates. 4) Line funk The lines should be plumbed with constant slope downhill so they drain. Overall I'd say the winter greywater system is workable, but will take a bit more research and care in the detailing to implement successfully. Hope this helps. Art ************* Art Ludwig Oasis Design Ecological Design publishing & consulting E mail: Web site: 5 San Marcos Trout Club, Santa Barbara, CA 93105-9726, Fax: 805 967-3229 Phone: 967-9956 Please do not distribute our e mail address to the general public. ************* ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 01:26:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA01915 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 01:26:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA13906; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:54:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA13475 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:54:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.sprynet.com (m3.sprynet.com [165.121.1.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13471 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:54:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.175.97.210 (hil-dnptg-044.oh.compuserve.net [206.175.103.44]) by m3.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA15555 for ; Sun, 23 Aug 1998 22:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35E0F726.3AC1@sprynet.com> Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 14:30:36 -0700 From: Art Ludwig Reply-To: odesign@sprynet.com Organization: Oasis Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Green Building Subject: GBlist: Questions for water filter gurus; slow sand filters Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4189 Thanks, water filter gurus for your helpful replies. I am beginning to understand a bit how slow sand filtration works. One practical problem in my immediate applications is where do I put the things? All the systems are worked out to run by gravity, with hardly any fall from one part of the system to the next. For example, the cistern above the house is 3.5 meters above the second floor showerhead. I don't have enough fall to take water out the cistern outlet, put it in the top of a sand filter, then take it out the bottom of the sand filter and put it in another tank that could provide adequate pressure. There is adequate fall further upstream in the system, however at this point the flow is not slow (500 lpm) and then the water sits for eight months; not the best place for treatment. So I got to thinkin, what if I just fill the very bottom of the tank around the outlet with gravel, and pour some sand over that? The whole cistern would be the sand filter, with no head loss, just a bit less storage capacity. There would be plenty of pressure from water above the sand to push water through the schmutzdecke, at least when the cistern was full. A breather tube from the airspace at the top of the tank to the gravel space would allow the water below the schmutzdecke to flow out faster than it filters in, to meet demand spikes. I guess you'd have to empty the cistern to service the sand filter, which could be a drag. Concievably things could get anaerobic under the sand if the water wasn't getting used. Does it seem like this would work or am I crazy? Another question: why do you need 30 cm minimum of sand if all the purification happens in the top 3 cm? Yours, Art de el agua ************* Art Ludwig Oasis Design Ecological Design publishing & consulting E mail: Web site: 5 San Marcos Trout Club, Santa Barbara, CA 93105-9726, Fax: 805 967-3229 Phone: 967-9956 Please do not distribute our e mail address to the general public. ************* ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 08:30:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA04333 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24045; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:02:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 07:58:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA23799 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 07:58:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA23795 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 07:58:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.200] (pm0a30.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.94]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA24102; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:08:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:08:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980824033940.006c7218@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "David F. Lambertson" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Moisture under metal roof Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4190 Sacie, I would drill holes every foot or so along the splines and inject (non-HCFC) expanding foam sealant. This should effectively seal the gaps created in routing out for and installing the splines. With the I-beam splines, it might be necessary to drill holes a bit to each side of the OSB joint to align properly with the gap at the edge of the I-beam spline. A number of SIP manufacturers now have recommended construction details calling for this sealing practice. Talk to your SIP manufacturer about this issue. -Alex Wilson Environmental Building News Brattleboro, VT At 10:39 PM -0500 8/23/98, David F. Lambertson wrote: > After three weeks underground so to speak, while we prepare and >watch over the raising of our SIP cabin (the subject for another note), I >have a question for the groupto which I would appreciate reasoned responses. > We are putting a consealed fastened metal roof on the structure, a >process that requires 30 # felt underneath. The subsurface is OSB. I am >concerned about the eventual moisture that might accumulate under the metal >roof that would rot the OSB. My concern is based on the fact that while the >SIP roof was originally supposed to be 6 1/2 inches of EPS, once the I beam >splines were installed and extra EPS was routed out to make the splicing >together of these easy, the roof has less that the 6 1/2 inches at the four >foot splines, ie there are holes around the I beams where warm air could >rise from the interior. Hence my concern about the moisture problem. > Should I be concerned? And if so, what to do about a future >problem? Thanks, Sacie Lambertson > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 08:39:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA04542 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:39:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24444; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:08:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24184 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:07:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24177 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:07:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.200] (pm0a30.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.94]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA26654; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:18:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:18:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35E0F227.AF558DE8@frontier.net> References: <199808230600.CAA08745@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Barry Goldberg , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: pathway materials Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4191 Hello Barry, I would suggest crushed stone. If you specify the right stone, it should maintain good permeability in your application. This might be a good application to try out a porous asphalt, which would be easier for bike riders and snow shovelers. I would avoid standard concrete or asphalt if possible, because they are impermeable. Bruce Ferguson's new book, "Introduction to Stormwater" (John Wiley & Sons) has some specifics on selection of paving materials relative to infiltration (a review of this book is coming out in the September issue of EBN). -Alex Wilson Environmental Building News Brattleboro, VT At 10:55 PM -0600 8/23/98, Barry Goldberg wrote: >Our cohousing project is discussing what to use to create the pathway >that goes down the middle of our community. It'll be the main walkway >between houses and the common house. Mostly foot traffic, but an >occasional car or truck delivery, or in case of emergency, a fire truck >or ambulance. It'll be wide enough to accomodate those vehicles. Other >criteria are easy on the feet, bikeable for young and old, easy to >shovel snow( we are in Colorado), easy maintenance, and esthetically >pleasing, if possible. >The main choice seems to be concrete, but I'm looking for suggestions of >alternative materials, keeping in mind affordability. I like the idea >of paving stones, but it seems like that would be prohibitably expensive >for the amount of walkway we are looking at, which is probably about a >1/4 mile total. Also, I'm not sure pavers would hold up. Thanks in >advance for any input. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 08:44:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA04611 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24776; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:16:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:12:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24500 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24492 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:12:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.200] (pm0a30.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.94]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA27851; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:22:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:22:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35E0F726.3AC1@sprynet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: odesign@sprynet.com, Green Building From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Questions for water filter gurus; slow sand filters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4192 >From my (limited) understanding of sand filters, I believe that they need to be fully aerobic. I would worry that at the bottom of a cistern, their wouldn't be enough oxygen to support the aerobic bacteria you want for biofiltration. A sand filter, as far as I know, is never designed to be water-saturated. -Alex Wilson Environmental Building News Brattleboro, VT At 2:30 PM -0700 8/23/98, Art Ludwig wrote: >Thanks, water filter gurus for your helpful replies. > >I am beginning to understand a bit how slow sand filtration works. One >practical problem in my immediate applications is where do I put the >things? All the systems are worked out to run by gravity, with hardly >any fall from one part of the system to the next. For example, the >cistern above the house is 3.5 meters above the second floor >showerhead. I don't have enough fall to take water out the cistern >outlet, put it in the top of a sand filter, then take it out the bottom >of the sand filter and put it in another tank that could provide >adequate pressure. There is adequate fall further upstream in the >system, however at this point the flow is not slow (500 lpm) and then >the water sits for eight months; not the best place for treatment. > >So I got to thinkin, what if I just fill the very bottom of the tank >around the outlet with gravel, and pour some sand over that? The whole >cistern would be the sand filter, with no head loss, just a bit less >storage capacity. There would be plenty of pressure from water above the >sand to push water through the schmutzdecke, at least when the cistern >was full. A breather tube from the airspace at the top of the tank to >the gravel space would allow the water below the schmutzdecke to flow >out faster than it filters in, to meet demand spikes. I guess you'd >have to empty the cistern to service the sand filter, which could be a >drag. Concievably things could get anaerobic under the sand if the >water wasn't getting used. > >Does it seem like this would work or am I crazy? > >Another question: why do you need 30 cm minimum of sand if all the >purification happens in the top 3 cm? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 10:37:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06445 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:37:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29373; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:09:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:05:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28766 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:05:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28757 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA04072 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:15:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from asy13.vineyard.net(206.166.158.32) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma003993; Mon Aug 24 10:15:25 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35E0F227.AF558DE8@frontier.net> References: <199808230600.CAA08745@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:19:30 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: pathway materials Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4193 Barry - At Island Cohousing we have the same issues: designing pedestrian paths that will also need to be used for vehicles on occasion. We are building the paths as construction and emergency access roads, with 10' wide sand/clay hardener base and appropriate turning radius for fire trucks. At the end of construction we will put a thin layer of loam and plant at the edges to bring the paths in to a more human scale 6 or 7' wide, and dress the path area with stone dust (crushed stone), which is a good porous surface, comfortable to walk on, good for kids' wheeled vehicles, low maintenance, and relatively inexpensive. When moving vans, emergency vehicles or other large vehicles have to use, one wheel will be on the grass, but with a firm base underneath. Worst case: if they have to be used for driving in wet weather, some repairs will have to be done to the grassy edge. John Abrams >Hello everyone, > >Our cohousing project is discussing what to use to create the pathway >that goes down the middle of our community. It'll be the main walkway >between houses and the common house. Mostly foot traffic, but an >occasional car or truck delivery, or in case of emergency, a fire truck >or ambulance. It'll be wide enough to accomodate those vehicles. Other >criteria are easy on the feet, bikeable for young and old, easy to >shovel snow( we are in Colorado), easy maintenance, and esthetically >pleasing, if possible. >The main choice seems to be concrete, but I'm looking for suggestions of >alternative materials, keeping in mind affordability. I like the idea >of paving stones, but it seems like that would be prohibitably expensive >for the amount of walkway we are looking at, which is probably about a >1/4 mile total. Also, I'm not sure pavers would hold up. Thanks in >advance for any input. > >-- >Barry Goldberg barryg@frontier.net >Durango,Co > >San Juan Cohousing, near Durango, CO, where we're looking for a few more > >folks. Check us out at: http://www.sanjuancohousing.com > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 10:55:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06710 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:55:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00361; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:27:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:23:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00100 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:23:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hil-img-5.compuserve.com (hil-img-5.compuserve.com [149.174.177.135]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00088 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-5.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.12) id KAA23496; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:32:33 -0400 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: Re: GBlist: pathway materials To: Alex Wilson Cc: Gregory Thomas <72477.2131@compuserve.com>, "[unknown]" , Barry Goldberg Message-ID: <199808241032_MC2-572D-7EFF@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAA00089 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4194 Message text written by Alex Wilson >I would suggest crushed stone.< The problem with stone in a residential setting is dust. You track a lot of dust and small stones into your house. We go to all this trouble to make our houses healthy, then we put a significant allergen outside our door. Oh well. Sniffle. Greg Gregory Thomas EcoVillage Cohousing Cooperative 121 Rachel Carson Way Ithaca, NY 14850 g_thomas@compuserve.com 607-277-6240 607-277-6224 fax ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 11:12:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07091 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:12:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01477; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:44:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:40:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01183 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:40:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.sprynet.com (m3.sprynet.com [165.121.2.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01174 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:40:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.175.103.52 (hil-dnptg-052.oh.compuserve.net [206.175.103.52]) by m3.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA02730; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35E1807C.A1C@sprynet.com> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:02:22 -0700 From: Art Ludwig Reply-To: odesign@sprynet.com Organization: Oasis Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Wilson , Green Building Subject: Re: GBlist: Questions for water filter gurus; slow sand filters References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4195 Alex Wilson wrote: > > >From my (limited) understanding of sand filters, I believe that they need > to be fully aerobic. I would worry that at the bottom of a cistern, their > wouldn't be enough oxygen to support the aerobic bacteria you want for > biofiltration. A sand filter, as far as I know, is never designed to be > water-saturated. > > -Alex Wilson > Environmental Building News > Brattleboro, VT Hi, Alex... Thats what I thought, too. But check: http://www.cybercomm.nl/~wbdwing/rain.html for a drawing of a sand filter which is continually inundated under 10 cm of water as a design requirement, and http://www.waterinfo.com/ssf.htm which comes across as technically together with much detail and states: " The water in this compartment [sand filter] must have sufficient depth to drive through the schmutzdecke, the filter bed and into the support gravel - and initially should be about 2-3 meters, or 7-10 feet. The lower limit of the depth is somewhat controversial but 1.5 meters, or about 4 feet, should be a reasonable value. This figure, however, will be related to the sand properties and the porosity of the schmutzdecke." So they're saying you NEED the pressure of several feet of water above the thing to drive the water through. This text is accompanied by a drawing which bears a striking resemblance to my cistern with several wheelbarrows full of sand and gravel at the bottom. The only difference I can see between this drawing and my crazy idea is that the 30 m3 water in my cistern will take about a month to empty, eventually being drawn down below the level of the sand. Clearly, more reseach is needed to reconcile these conflicting ideas... Art -- ************* Art Ludwig Oasis Design Ecological Design publishing & consulting E mail: Web site: 5 San Marcos Trout Club, Santa Barbara, CA 93105-9726, Fax: 805 967-3229 Phone: 967-9956 Please do not distribute our e mail address to the general public. ************* ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 11:36:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07448 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02408; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:04:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02075 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:04:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02071 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:04:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (chtw07-7.pei.sympatico.ca [207.34.31.55]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA25689 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:14:40 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35E1850C.518E@pei.sympatico.ca> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:21:48 -0300 From: Phil Ferraro Reply-To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Alt to Pressure Treated Wood References: <199808191833.SAA17148@nov.diac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4196 > >Isn't there a new more environmentally friendly alternative to CCA treated wood? Here on Prince Edward Island we just funded a company that is collecting plastic silage wrap and fertilizer bags and turning them into lumber. The "Plastic Wood" is being used for fence posts, lobster traps, decks and foundation posts. If anyone has any experience with this we would like to get information about potential off gassing of "plastic wood" does anyone know if it has been approved for a building material inside houses? The fire marshall has raised a concern about its flamability and would like to get information. -- Phil Ferraro, Executive Director, P.E.I. ADAPT Council c/o The Farm Centre, 420 University Avenue, Room 103 Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island Canada C1A 7Z5 Phone: (902) 368-2005 Fax: (902) 368-2520 (phone first) Email: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 11:54:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07694 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:54:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03207; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:26:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:22:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02915 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:22:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02911 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:22:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DME6MT7E; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:32:11 EDT To: barryg@frontier.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:32:37 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: pathway materials Message-ID: <19980824.113238.6550.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199808230600.CAA08745@solstice.crest.org> <35E0F227.AF558DE8@frontier.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-7,11-16 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4197 Barry, Have you looked into the product Grasspave? It is made of recycled plastic and available from Invisible Structures Inc, in Denver. (800)233-1510. In effect, it forms an open grid with areas between for grass to grow through. It is used in parking lots, driveways and walkways. By the way, I have been offered a chance to do the interiors for a home in your area. How close is Durango to Denver? Are there any environmentally responsible designers (interior) in you area that I could liason with? Thanks for any help. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 12:07:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08000 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:07:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03990; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:39:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:35:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03673 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from airmail.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.20.220]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03669 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:35:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from arb.ca.gov ([146.114.11.17]) by airmail.arb.ca.gov (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with ESMTP id AAAB1D8 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:40:42 -0700 Message-ID: <35E18AE4.2D3BB0E9@arb.ca.gov> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:46:44 -0700 From: "Thomas J. Phillips" Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: RE: TANNIN REMOVAL Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4198 ART: FYI, just saw an abstract on health effects of humic acid, from 8/98 conference. Humic acid (HA) in well water is listed as a suspected etiologic factor in blackfoot disease (a peripheral arterial occlusive disease) in Taiwan. HA harbors free redicals and was found to affect the shape and breakage of red blood cells. "Effects of humic acid on the human red blood cells." HL Yang, ... FJ Lu, Dept. of Nutrition, China Medial College and Dept. of Biochemistry, College of Medicine, natl. Taiwan University, Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C. Epidemiology,Vol. 9, No. 4 Supplement: S32, Abstract #42P. Presented at 1998 Annual Conference of Intl. Society of Env. Epidemiology and Intl. Soc. for Exposure Assessment, Boston, MA. Glad to see you are addressing the tannin issue, Tom Phillips ============ TANNIN REMOVAL The 100,000 gallon cistern above gets most of its water from a seasonal waterfall which discharges straight surface runoff. Especially early in the rainy season, it is the color of strong tea. I assume the color is from dissolved tannins, as it never settles out even after months in the big cistern. The community has been using this water as is for everything but drinking, but it wouldn't hurt to clean it up. There is a filter box on the roof of the cistern, 54 ft2 in area and about a foot deep. Would filling this with charcoal and running the water through this help? How much contact time is needed? When the water comes, it can really come fast; like 100 gpm, though it could be filled more slowly to get cleaner water. Thanks for considering my questions... Art ************* Art Ludwig Oasis Design Ecological Design publishing & consulting E mail: Web site: 5 San Marcos Trout Club, Santa Barbara, CA 93105-9726, Fax: 805 967-3229 Phone: 967-9956 Please do not distribute our e mail address to the general public. ************* ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 12:23:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08240 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:23:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05038; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:52:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04685 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:52:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04679 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:51:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.88]) by berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id MAA16191 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:02:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with SMTP id MAA09123 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:02:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding (for Northern Climates) -Part 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4199 On Sun, 23 Aug 1998, Nadav Malin wrote: (snip) > In AAC block, however, my understanding is that the flyash just replaces > sand. Since sand is a much lower-impact material to acquire than cement, > this benefit is not as significant. > > More importantly, by using the accumulated mountains of flyash from coal > power plants, are you helping keep a destructive technology alive. Given > the realities of global warming (not to mention acid rain, etc.) it seems > that the sooner coal is extinguished as a fuel for generating electricity, > the better. One factor might be that the industry is choking on its own > flyash waste. I don't know how significant this problem is economically, > but it seems that by helping them solve this problem you might be doing the > atmosphere and global climate a disservice. Thank you Nadav for bringing this point up again. It's exactly the issue a lot of people oversee when focusing all energy on maximizing recycled content (be it carpets, or fleeze jackets). "Plugging" the end of the waste-stream pipe by rejecting many municipal-solid-waste incinerators in Germany over the last couple of years for example, have largely contributet to an immense reduction of that stream. (A pitty that source reduction always seems to be much more complicated than end-of-pipe mgt) Thank you. Cheers, Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greening-of-Dana homepage http://www.snre.umich.edu/greendana/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Reppe e-mail: reppe@umich.edu National Pollution Prevention Center phone : 734-936-2535 University of Michigan fax : 734-647-5841 430 E. University Ann Arbor, MI http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub 48109-1115 U.S.A. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reppe -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 12:50:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09039 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:50:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06936; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:22:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:18:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06509 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:18:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.pair.com (relay1.pair.com [209.68.1.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06502 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dnatella (asc165.idsonline.com [207.176.21.165]) by relay.pair.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA23649 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:32:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980824122134.0069e878@scgcorp.com> X-Sender: dnatella@scgcorp.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:21:34 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Dave Natella Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Alt to Pressure Treated Wood In-Reply-To: <35E1850C.518E@pei.sympatico.ca> References: <199808191833.SAA17148@nov.diac.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4200 At 12:21 PM 8/24/1998 -0300, you wrote: >> >Isn't there a new more environmentally friendly alternative to CCA treated wood? > >Here on Prince Edward Island we just funded a company that is collecting >plastic silage wrap and fertilizer bags and turning them into lumber. >The "Plastic Wood" is being used for fence posts, lobster traps, decks >and foundation posts. [snip] Please put this company in touch with the farmers in the United Kingdom (and elsewhere?) who are having difficulty disposing of their silage wrap properly. See the related BBC article: "UK Farmers want cash to recycle" http://www.news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_157000/157268.stm Dave Natella The Scientific Consulting Group, Inc. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 12:54:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09118 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:54:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07425; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:22:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06918 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:22:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06906 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:22:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPT2J; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:40:08 -0400 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDCF5A.A63158A0@Walnut.babb.com>; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:28:07 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDCF5A.A63158A0@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'Nadav Malin'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding (for NorthernClimates) -Part 2 Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:06:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA06908 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4201 Greetings! Of course I would be honoured to answer some questions about flyash AAC to the best of my ability... I continue to learn about the product, too! Please do not hesitate to ask... even if it is a real humdinger... If I do not know the answers now, I will do my best to find them. << In AAC block, however, my understanding is that the flyash just replaces sand. Since sand is a much lower-impact material to acquire than cement, this benefit is not as significant. >> The raw materials of AAC are 40% flyash, 46% water, 12% cement, 2% lime, and .08% aluminum paste. (Note: these measurements are approximate. We began production in July, and are still balancing the ingredients.) The ready-mix raw materials mentioned in the article (http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Features/CemConc/CementConc.html ) are 12% Portland cement, 34% sand, 48% crushed stone, and 6% water. Obviously we do replace the cement, but we do replace sand and crushed stone, both of which require large amounts of energy to prepare. Sand must be crushed in an expensive and energy-consuming 1000 kW ball mill, for example. I do not know how the crushed stone is prepared... but I imagine it is similarly energy-consuming. AAC is autoclaved. Autoclaving certainly requires a large amount of energy. Fortunately, however, we save on transportation energy consumption. The flyash will be shipped a very short distance, since the AAC production plants will be located on-site at the power plants. Plus, it is lightweight. The blocks are lighter than regular concrete, too, and that also saves on shipping... I am very interested in calculating our energy usage and comparing it to regular concrete and ready-mix energy requirements. As we reach more regular production, I plan to make that one of my projects! (I'll post it on the BCC web site...) By the way, I enjoyed the EBN article. I read it earlier this Summer, and printed it out so that I could consult it often. It is exactly the kind of information I look for in my research. Here is a quote from the EBN article: <> So I guess there must be a pretty decent energy savings, since we use 40%. << More importantly, by using the accumulated mountains of flyash from coal power plants, are you helping keep a destructive technology alive. Given the realities of global warming (not to mention acid rain, etc.) it seems that the sooner coal is extinguished as a fuel for generating electricity, the better. One factor might be that the industry is choking on its own flyash waste. I don't know how significant this problem is economically, but it seems that by helping them solve this problem you might be doing the atmosphere and global climate a disservice. >> Yes, I have asked myself this same question. I certainly inquired after it... and discovered that the amount of flyash currently contained in landfills and *ponds* could sustain the AAC industry for a very, very long time (the exact time, I have no numbers... but there are billions of tons). We can use the stock-piled flyash in AAC manufacture, even though it is not suitable for use in ready-mix and other kinds of concrete. (We think we may be able to use flyash with LOI up to 10%, but need to do more testing to be sure!) Believe me, I am just as concerned (quite distressed, actually!!!) about global warming. Part of my mission with this company is to make it as Green as possible. I am not the owner, but do have some influence... I also share the hope that we can eliminate the need for the burning of fossil fuels. I have been researching solar homes, since one of my goals is to build one from AAC. (Maybe a demo home...) In the meantime, we need to take care of the millions of tons of flyash that are landfilled each year. It exists, whether I like it or not... and it CAN be utilized successfully... But I do not know if we could ever make enough flyash AAC to recycle ALL of the millions of tons per year produced by power plants... (Note: power companies pay about $1 billion per year in disposal costs. Guess where the money to pay that comes from? Taxpayers!) Would AAC support the continuance of coal burning? I don't think so... It just doesn't make that big of a difference when you look at the big picture. Power companies still have to dispose of other byproducts, such as clinker and slag. I think the only thing that could really threaten them would be the reduction of consumer demand. If people began building better homes, especially solar homes, and using less electricity every day, maybe THAT would make a difference. We (Babb Cellular Concrete) are just cleaning up a bit... plus making a high quality building product in the bargain. BTW, our background is in lumber, not concrete. We have been watching (and participating in) the changes in the lumber industry for 50 years. We have recognized the need for an alternative, leading us to this endeavor.... You see, there are other advantages to using AAC besides the recycling of flyash. (Please see the web site if you want to know more, so I do not have to get into advertising right now...if I haven't already! http://www.babb.com/BCC) << I'm curious to know if the use of flyash has any impact, positive or negative, on the amount of cement in your AAC. And I'd like to hear from anyone on the broader issue of coal and flyash. >> So far, as I mentioned, we use about the same amount of cement as for regular concrete. I have been aware that the cement uses a great amount of energy to produce... We are looking for alternatives. The small plant here in Ringgold, GA was built as a research and design facility. You may be certain that we will be experimenting with different mixes and raw materials! Two sites you might find interesting: http://www.qcl.com.au/pozz/tech/poz_tncn.htm (Pozzolanic technical notes) http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/2095/flyash.htm (Flyash resource site) Thanks for your questions. I will pursue these further, you can be assured. Jillanna Babb-Cheshul Babb Cellular Concrete ______________________________________________ Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 13:10:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA09491 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09295; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:38:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08717 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08713 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:38:32 -0400 (EDT) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: from ANovelli@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1YDZa13457 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:48:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2d1188d4.35e19957@aol.com> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:48:21 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: flyash as pozzolan Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4202 Jim Holdcraft wrote: >If we got everyone in the concrete business to somehow decide that flyash was the best admixture since portland, then PERHAPS we would be promoting the production of flyash - as it stands there as so many professionals that will tolerate NO flyash in their approved concrete mixtures it seems far and away unreasonably silly to believe that it's use will promote coal burning. Far from it - we have so many mountains of this junk that any use that will encapsulate it and keep it from leaching nasties into the ground is a positive move - personally I usually specify an allowable limit of 12% in standard concrete, not to exceed 10% in high strength concrete (above 6000psi) Where can we find good science on the benefit of flyash as a pozzolan, to counter the conventional wisdom that leans much more towards flyash being a cheaper alternative, often associated with surface spalling and crazing?< Thoughts and questions regarding your post: 1. There are a number of alternative admixtures which are more environmentally benign and less energy-intensive that may shed new light on many of the demand concerns. 2. My understanding of the benefits of using flyash may be incomplete, as I've heard that the only ash that is being used, or perhaps legally *can* be used, is considered 'safe,' i.e., my assumption being it contains no leachable toxins. I've not supported this use because I have yet to believe that: a) the toxins, whether regulated or not cannot safely be stabilized in so pourous and dynamic a material, and b) even if regulated probably wouldn't be truly 'safe' for all uses when considering exposure times, construction and demolition exposures, etc. And with my experience in the hazardous waste remediation field, I sincerely doubt there could be any effective way of limiting toxin concentrations that wouldn't rely heavily on dilution, rather than remediation. Any thoughts on this? 3. Please describe what "surface spalling and crazing" are? I assume the latter is some kind of cracking. One thought one the overall issue. We certainly need to address how we can better use any and all of our waste products, though I tend to err on the side of caution. As Bill McDonough says in his approach toward eliminating the concept of 'waste,' (i.e., waste equals food), there is a caveat that these waste products are part of one of two completely isolated loops: One of 'organic' nutrients, which comprise all organic matter suitable for inclusion in the food chain, and the other 'technical' nutrients, which are not suitable for the above, and eventually need to be recycled completely within the technical infrastructure. The isolation of these two loops is imperative for any sustainable human existence IMO, and the usage of flyash is clearly a sketchy one from this perspective. Transitional strategies that allow the rapid weening off of coal and other fossil fuels are obviously necessary, as well as ways to safely utilize the 'waste' products created in the mean time. Perhaps the safest usage would be to allow flyash only for road construction or other low-contact uses? Best regards, Tony Novelli Development Center for Appropriate Technology (DCAT) Tucson, AZ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 13:24:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA09795 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:24:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10145; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:57:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:53:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09787 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:53:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09782 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:52:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dell (sa-208-226-93-181.cruzio.com [208.226.93.181]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id KAA29802 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Hal Levin" To: Subject: GBlist: RE: greenbuilding-digest V2 #285 Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:02:56 -0700 Message-ID: <000f01bdcf81$0a5c64c0$b55de2d0@dell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199808240600.CAA15350@solstice.crest.org> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4203 Andy: Ken Kern died in an unreinforced mud structure. That is real mud, not "mud" as used by builders (around here anyway) to refer to concrete when we are pouring the stuff. Stucco thermal expansion is an issue and control joints are necessary to properly address the problem, at least that was the way we used to address it. Just like a poured concrete slab. Making it thicker will not necessarily prevent cracking; control joints will do what their name implies - focus the "cracking" where it will not cause aesthetic or functional problems. Hal Levin Andy Shapiro wrote: Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 13:12:21 -0400 From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re:Stucco over foam wall [snip] John -- Am I off-base in being concerned about differential coefficients of thermal expansion of stucco and foam? It seems to me the foam could expand and crack the gunnite skin. Is this a concern? Is it possible to make the stucco thick enough to be able to resist this? Or do you compensate for the different rates of expansion in some way? There is an architect near here who has built a very beautiful dome of extruded polystyrene skinned both sides with a trowelled on concrete mixture. When I visited it, I could see cracks in both the interior and exterior concrete that made me nervous. Freeze/thaw cycles would seem to exacerbate this problem. We do see an occasional earth tremor in Vermont, and I was put in mid of Ken Kearn's untimely end in a collapsed unreinforced concrete dome of his own creation. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT 05602 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 14:09:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA10388 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:09:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12614; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:41:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:37:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA12136 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:37:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12132 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:37:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12862; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:47:41 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.Watstar.UWaterloo.CA) Message-ID: <35E1D16D.6C2C@BRIDGE.Watstar.UWaterloo.CA> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:47:41 -0700 From: John Straube Organization: University of Waterloo X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: absteen@dakotacom.net Subject: GBlist: Stucco laths / reinforcement Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4204 My email crashed since Friday so I haven't been getting all messages, but I see several posts raised questions regarding my initial post on fibre reinforcement. Providing a sufficient amount of steel reinforcement greatly increases the strength of stucco -- stucco begins to act like thin reinforced concrete. Add enough lath and you create ferrocemento, a very strong material indeed. BUT, as with all fibres, you must add enough. Steel fibres typically provide little strength to the stucco until the stucco cracks. If the load required to crack the stucco is higher than the strength offered by the reinforcement, then the reinforcement fails immediatley after the stucco cracks and is useless as a means of increasing strength. E.g. if we have stucco with a tensile strength of 100 psi, and the light chicken wire we use as lath has an area of only 0.01 sq in per foot, then the a 1" thick x 12" long chunk of stucco will resist tension of 1200 pounds. If the chicken wire fails at 60 000 psi, and 0.01 sq in is provided, it will resist 600 pds. Obviously, once the stucco fails,at 1200 pds, the chicken wire will fail too. In this example, the chicekn wire is not useless, since it helps to adhere the stucco to the wall, and it creates interuptions in the stucco and thus turns a few unsightly cracks into many small cracks which no one notices. Similarily, poly fibres cannot be added in high enough concentration to increase the strength of stucco, but they do add strength to curing stucco (during the first few hours the stucco has a strength of only 5 psi or so, and the poly fibres are helpful)and spread cracks out. So, poly fibres are mostly for crack control. Some commercial concrete repair mixes incoporate a mix of poly and nylon fibres to reduce cracking during the setting and curing process. Poly is at least 10 times weaker than steel on a volume basis, and so ten times the area of poly would be needed for the same strength. This volume of poly is impractical to apply. Poly is many time more flexible, and so crack widths become very large as a stucco is loaded, even if the fibres do not fail. Glass fibres have strengths of more than 200 000 psi, and the stiffness of the fibres is many times that of the stucco. Therefore, when a load is applied to a glass fibre reinforced cement mix, the glass fibres, being stiffer than the stucco, take the load and being very strong do not fail before the stucco. Just as any other fibres (like straw in mud bricks), glass fibres promote microcracking and thus reduce visible macro cracking. Mixes of 1 to 2% by volume glass fibres will result in tension strength of 300 to 400 psi. High cement mixes with 6% glass can reach tension strengths of well over 1000 psi. Fibres such as nylon are much stiffer and stronger than poly, so can begin to add reasonable amounts of strength to a stucco mix if added in large enough quantities. Meshes, of glass or poly, are used instead of fibres for two main reasons -- 1) they increase the amount of fibres that can practially be added to a mix (too much fibre and stucco mixes become hard to work and the fibres ball up) and they control the fibre orientation and 2) they ensure good bond between the stucco matrix and the fibres. Steel mesh has long been used to act as a layer that mechanically attaches the stucco to a substrate that does not allow chemical or mechanical bonding (e.g., like building paper over plywood) and glass and plastic meshes can be used to do the same. Whatever the reason, steel, glass and plastic meshes can greatly improve the strength of a stucco layer (in the case of steel and glass, commerically available cladding panels can be made to resist considerable wind loads) and always reduce macro-cracking. Economically, steel meshes provide the most strength for the dollar. Alakline resistant glass cost more for the same strcutural performance, but has some advatnages like corrosion reistance (in most cases, corrosion is not a problem if the metal is galvanized). I know of no commerically viable plastic fibres used as structural reinforcement, but many products use plastic fibres and meshes for crack control (and they are economical for this purpose). I would be interested to hear of products that do use plastic fibres. Cellulose fibres are probably the most commonly used natural fibre for reinforcing cement composites. There are a number of problems with cellulose, although many techniques, mostly proprietary, exist to allow these. Hardiplank is an example of a very succesful cellulose reinforced cement composite. Although cellulose is attacked by alkalines, this depends on many factors, and in undemanding applications straw and wood fibres can be used as reinforcement. Durability is a concern, but I cant go into the many variations that affect this durability. The science that deals wth fibre reinforced cement composites is quite advanced, although the majority of the work in the literature deals with glass and steel. Nevertheless, the same mechanics theory can be used successfully with any fibre in a wide variety of mixes. A search in any technical or university library will return a plethora of useful references. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Engineering Group Civil Engineering Department University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ontario CANADA N2L 3G1 UW 519 888 4567 x2378 Personal (519) 741 7920 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 15:36:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA12040 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:36:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA17021; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:08:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:04:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16548 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:04:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16542 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:04:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DMFKAVF8; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:13:24 EDT To: jillanna@babb.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:57:37 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding (for NorthernClimates) -Part 2 Message-ID: <19980824.151349.20678.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <01BDCF5A.A63158A0@walnut.babb.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,7-8,10-18 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4205 Jillanna et al., I just attended a presentation by Ytong - they are one of the two firms that use primarily sand. I asked about the use of fly ash and the tremendous energy used by autoclaving. His responses were: 1.Ytong investigated the use of fly ash but rarely include it in the mix. Their reason is lack of consistency. 2. They have designed their autoclaves in sequence so as to capture and reuse the steam, thus saving energy. Just thought you'd like to know what the competition is saying. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinterior.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 16:03:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA12706 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:03:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18864; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:36:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:32:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18489 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:32:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18485 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:32:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from .sover.net (pm0a11.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.139]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA23050 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:42:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35E1E5A2.6A04@sover.net> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:13:54 -0700 From: Cindy Blakeslee X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: flyash References: <2d1188d4.35e19957@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4206 I've heard of some guy using flyash to produce ceramic tiles for flooring -- anyone have his info? Cindy Blakeslee The Center for Sustainable Building, Vermont 802/479-9341 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 16:31:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA13273 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:31:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20807; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:04:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:00:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20398 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:59:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA20393 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:59:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPTJ8; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:17:40 -0400 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDCF79.0EBCF960@Walnut.babb.com>; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:05:48 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDCF79.0EBCF960@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'Beverly A. Weiter'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding (for NorthernClimates) -Part 2 Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:05:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA20395 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4207 Beverly Thank-you for relaying the Ytong information. We have actually been in close contact with Ytong, and find them quite affable and sharing with their knowledge. I was not aware of the autoclave sequencing, but I will surely pursue that lead... Best Regards, Jillanna Babb-Cheshul _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 20:46:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA18956 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:46:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03048; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:11:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA02623 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA02618 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:11:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from van-as-05b16.direct.ca (kadulski) [204.174.249.32] by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0zB6rq-0001Xa-00; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:21:46 -0700 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Cc: Subject: GBlist: Re: PLastic Wood Alt to Pressure Treated Wood Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 05:20:57 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4208 Phil Ferraro asked : >Here on Prince Edward Island we just funded a company that is collecting plastic silage wrap and fertilizer bags and turning them into lumber. The "Plastic Wood" is being used for fence posts, lobster traps, decks and foundation posts. >If anyone has any experience with this we would like to get information about potential off gassing of "plastic wood" does anyone know if it has been approved for a building material inside houses? The fire marshall has raised a concern about its flamability and would like to get information. I don't think this product is desigend for indoor use. I would have severe concerns about emissions from the material and what that would do for the indoor air quality. That is why manufacturers sell it for outdoor landscape applications, rather than for indoor use. I think that in the manufacture of these materials there is some inconsistency in "feedstock" so the material is not completely homogenous. One thing to keep in mind that these products have limited structural properties, so they would not be suited for heavy duty structural applications. ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 21:19:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA19301 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:19:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05948; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:45:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04882 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:45:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04877 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.222] (ka4-222.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.222]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08513; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:55:01 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35E0F227.AF558DE8@frontier.net> References: <199808230600.CAA08745@solstice.crest.org> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:02:51 -0400 To: Barry Goldberg , Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: pathway materials Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id UAA04878 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4209 Sgrìobh Barry Goldberg: >Our cohousing project is discussing what to use to create the pathway >that goes down the middle of our community. It'll be the main walkway >between houses and the common house. Mostly foot traffic, but an >occasional car or truck delivery, or in case of emergency, a fire truck >or ambulance. It'll be wide enough to accomodate those vehicles. Other >criteria are easy on the feet, bikeable for young and old, easy to >shovel snow( we are in Colorado), easy maintenance, and esthetically >pleasing, if possible. >The main choice seems to be concrete, but I'm looking for suggestions of >alternative materials, keeping in mind affordability. I like the idea >of paving stones, but it seems like that would be prohibitably expensive >for the amount of walkway we are looking at, which is probably about a >1/4 mile total. Also, I'm not sure pavers would hold up. Thanks in >advance for any input. I was talking to my neighbor a few days ago. He's a professional landscaper. He was telling me about a new kind of brick which are sufficiently solid that you can use a mechanical compactor to tamp them into place in their bed of sand. When they heave, they heave en masse, so there's nothing to trip on even though the patio does move. And should they become mis-aligned, you can compact them back into place. Would this work for a road or be cost-effective? I have no idea. But it's what sprang to mind when I read your message. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 21:19:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA19306 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:19:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05981; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:46:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04881 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:45:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04842; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:44:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.222] (ka4-222.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.222]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23744; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:00:30 -0400 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Piping in Sand? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id UAA04843 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4210 Hallo. My house plan calls for running the water pipes through the sand which is immediately under an earthen floor. There will be plastic between the ground and the sand, and a layer of rubble under that. My intuition tells me to worry about running copper pipe through sand like that, but my plumber has little experience with polybutylene pipe. He seems to think that copper would be all right. This is for hot water and cold. What do people think? Are there alternatives which I haven't thought of? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 24 23:10:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA20259 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:10:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10848; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:42:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:37:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10474 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:37:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10468 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:37:42 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1BICa19316 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:47:29 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <5689209d.35e225c2@aol.com> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:47:29 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:Stucco over foam wall Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4211 Friends, Just reviewed all the stucco posts. Joe Lstiburek is getting rich as an expert witness in court cases involving Drivit and other stucco like products applied over foam. He has studied the water infiltration issues with stucco extensively and has wonderful details for successful stucco work in the "Builder's Guides which his company publishes in climate specific formats. Anyone who doesn't have the "Builder's Guide" for their local climate should definitely get it. great deatils on all sorts of waterproofing and energy issues. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 00:57:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21303 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:57:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA13737; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:25:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA13504 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:25:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13500 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:25:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.129] (ka3-129.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.129]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA17413 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:34:40 -0400 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Bathroom Vent Fans Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id AAA13501 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4212 Hallo, all. Poring over the latest issue of This Old House, I see an ad for Broan "Solitaire Ultra Silent" bathroom ceiling fans. This prompted me to wonder what to get when it comes time to install the ceiling fan. I've learned from experience that the one at the local building supply will almost certainly not be what I want. Are the advertised ones any good? Is there anything better? Is there anything in particular that I should be looking for? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 05:09:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA22851 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 05:09:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA20220; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 04:41:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 04:37:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA19970 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 04:37:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chalmers.se (chalmers.se [129.16.1.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA19965 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 04:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bmpc1.bm.chalmers.se (bmpc1.bm.chalmers.se [129.16.172.11]) by chalmers.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23596; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:47:35 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from BMCTHNOVS/MAILQ by bmpc1.bm.chalmers.se (Mercury 1.21); 25 Aug 98 09:53:30 +0100 Received: from MAILQ by BMCTHNOVS (Mercury 1.21); 25 Aug 98 09:53:21 +0100 Received: from bmpc12.bm.chalmers.se by bmpc1.bm.chalmers.se (Mercury 1.21); 25 Aug 98 09:53:21 +0100 Received: by bmpc12.bm.chalmers.se with Microsoft Mail id <01BDD015.C12EC3C0@bmpc12.bm.chalmers.se>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:47:29 +0200 Message-ID: <01BDD015.C12EC3C0@bmpc12.bm.chalmers.se> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C5se_Andersson?= To: "'Jillanna Babb'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding (for NorthernClimates) -Part 2 Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:47:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id EAA19966 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4213 Hello all, I am following your discussion about the use of fly ash in materials from the other side of earth - Sweden... I am a PhD student studying the leaching of harmful compounds from building materials. For the moment I am doing leaching tests with different additives (and admixtures) in concrete, and I am therefore interested in knowing if anyone knows anything about leaching of heavy metals from AAC? Thanks, Åse Andersson ---------------------------------------------------- Department of Building Materials Chalmers University of Technology 412 96 Göteborg Sweden Phone: +46-31-772 2333 Fax: +46-31-772 2296 -----Original Message----- From: Jillanna Babb [SMTP:jillanna@babb.com] Sent: Monday, August 24, 1998 6:06 PM To: 'Nadav Malin'; 'greenbuilding@crest.org' Subject: RE: GBlist: Healthy and "Green" Exterior Siding (for NorthernClimates) -Part 2 Greetings! Of course I would be honoured to answer some questions about flyash AAC to the best of my ability... I continue to learn about the product, too! Please do not hesitate to ask... even if it is a real humdinger... If I do not know the answers now, I will do my best to find them. << In AAC block, however, my understanding is that the flyash just replaces sand. Since sand is a much lower-impact material to acquire than cement, this benefit is not as significant. >> The raw materials of AAC are 40% flyash, 46% water, 12% cement, 2% lime, and .08% aluminum paste. (Note: these measurements are approximate. We began production in July, and are still balancing the ingredients.) The ready-mix raw materials mentioned in the article (http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Features/CemConc/CementConc.html ) are 12% Portland cement, 34% sand, 48% crushed stone, and 6% water. Obviously we do replace the cement, but we do replace sand and crushed stone, both of which require large amounts of energy to prepare. Sand must be crushed in an expensive and energy-consuming 1000 kW ball mill, for example. I do not know how the cru shed stone is prepared... but I imagine it is similarly energy-consuming. AAC is autoclaved. Autoclaving certainly requires a large amount of energy. Fortunately, however, we save on transportation energy consumption. The flyash will be shipped a very short distance, since the AAC production plants will be located on-site at the power plants. Plus, it is lightweight. The blocks are lighter than regular concrete, too, and that also saves on shipping... I am very interested in calculating our energy usage and comparing it to regular concrete and ready-mix energy requirements. As we reach more regular production, I plan to make that one of my projects! (I'll post it on the BCC web site...) By the way, I enjoyed the EBN article. I read it earlier this Summer, and printed it out so that I could consult it often. It is exactly the kind of information I look for in my research. Here is a quote from the EBN article: <> So I guess there must be a pretty decent energy savings, since we use 40%. << More importantly, by using the accumulated mountains of flyash from coal power plants, are you helping keep a destructive technology alive. Given the realities of global warming (not to mention acid rain, etc.) it seems that the sooner coal is extinguished as a fuel for generating electricity, the better. One factor might be that the industry is choking on its own flyash waste. I don't know how significant this problem is economically, but it seems that by helping them solve this problem you might be doing the atmosphere and global climate a disservice. >> Yes, I have asked myself this same question. I certainly inquired after it... and discovered that the amount of flyash currently contained in landfills and *ponds* could sustain the AAC industry for a very, very long time (the exact time, I have no nu mbers... but there are billions of tons). We can use the stock-piled flyash in AAC manufacture, even though it is not suitable for use in ready-mix and other kinds of concrete. (We think we may be able to use flyash with LOI up to 10%, but need to do mo Believe me, I am just as concerned (quite distressed, actually!!!) about global warming. Part of my mission with this company is to make it as Green as possible. I am not the owner, but do have some influence... I also share the hope that we can eliminate the need for the burning of fossil fuels. I have been researching solar homes, since one of my goals is to build one from AAC. (Maybe a demo home...) In the meantime, we need to take care of the millions of tons of flyash that are landfilled each year. It exists, whether I like it or not... and it CAN be utilized successfully... But I do not know if we could ever make enough flyash AAC to recycle ALL of the millions of tons per year produced by power plants... (Note: power companies pay about $1 billion per year in disposal costs. Guess where the money to pay that comes from? Taxpayers!) Would AAC support the continuance of coal burning? I don't think so... It just doesn't make that big of a difference when you look at the big picture. Power companies still have to dispose of other byproducts, such as clinker and slag. I think the o nly thing that could really threaten them would be the reduction of consumer demand. If people began building better homes, especially solar homes, and using less electricity every day, maybe THAT would make a difference. We (Babb Cellular Concrete) a re BTW, our background is in lumber, not concrete. We have been watching (and participating in) the changes in the lumber industry for 50 years. We have recognized the need for an alternative, leading us to this endeavor.... You see, there are other adv antages to using AAC besides the recycling of flyash. (Please see the web site if you want to know more, so I do not have to get into advertising right now...if I haven't already! http://www.babb.com/BCC) << I'm curious to know if the use of flyash has any impact, positive or negative, on the amount of cement in your AAC. And I'd like to hear from anyone on the broader issue of coal and flyash. >> So far, as I mentioned, we use about the same amount of cement as for regular concrete. I have been aware that the cement uses a great amount of energy to produce... We are looking for alternatives. The small plant here in Ringgold, GA was built as a research and design facility. You may be certain that we will be experimenting with different mixes and raw materials! Two sites you might find interesting: http://www.qcl.com.au/pozz/tech/poz_tncn.htm (Pozzolanic technical notes) http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/2095/flyash.htm (Flyash resource site) Thanks for your questions. I will pursue these further, you can be assured. Jillanna Babb-Cheshul Babb Cellular Concrete ______________________________________________ Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 07:12:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA23699 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:12:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA22676; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 06:44:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 06:40:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA22462 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 06:40:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA22456 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 06:40:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcoplos@aol.com Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id TCXMa20769; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 06:50:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <34faba91.35e296f3@aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 06:50:26 EDT To: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom Vent Fans Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4214 I use Panasonic vent fans exclusively. They also make a fan/light combo with a compact fluorescent light. The fans are excellent - low sones, low energy use. They come in 70,90, and 100 cfm models. I get mine from Energy Federation Inc., 1-800-876-0660. The 90 cfm fan runs about $102, the 90cfm fan/light is about $170. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 08:19:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA24109 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:19:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA24422; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:51:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:47:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA23969 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:47:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA23965 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:47:13 -0400 (EDT) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id TVDTa29489; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:56:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1181b8c.35e2a691@aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:56:59 EDT To: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom Vent Fans Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4215 There appear to be a bunch of nice quiet bathroom exhaust fans on the market, all of which cost a premium. One super-quiet in-line fan we specified with a variable-speed wall control suffered from multiple control failures and bad vibrations at a wide range of part-load speeds. On a different score, we have recently been told by owners that most people like the noise of a plain-vanilla bathroom exhaust fan - in a funny way, it gives a sense of privacy, provides "white noise" for all their "gray noises", and tells people the fan is actually working. So we've gone back to specifying off-the-shelf exhaust fans. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 108 S. Albany Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX IMSHAPIRO@AOL.COM ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 08:19:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA24110 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:19:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA24418; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:51:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:47:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA23958 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA23954 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:47:04 -0400 (EDT) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id TCQUa27696; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:56:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <9025b89.35e2a687@aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:56:54 EDT To: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom Vent Fans Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4216 There appear to be a bunch of nice quiet bathroom exhaust fans on the market, all of which cost a premium. One super-quiet in-line fan we specified with a variable-speed wall control suffered from multiple control failures and bad vibrations at a wide range of part-load speeds. On a different score, we have recently been told by owners that most people like the noise of a plain-vanilla bathroom exhaust fan - in a funny way, it gives a sense of privacy, provides "white noise" for all their "gray noises", and tells people the fan is actually working. So we've gone back to specifying off-the-shelf exhaust fans. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 108 S. Albany Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX IMSHAPIRO@AOL.COM ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 08:22:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA24154 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:22:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA24657; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:54:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:50:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA24320 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA24316 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:50:29 -0400 (EDT) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1FVTa27698 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:00:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <38c9bc11.35e2a74f@aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:00:13 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Flood info/ help needed Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4217 In the flash floods in Waitsfield, Vermont, June 27, my earth bermed/roofed house property sustained considerable damage - lost 50' of treed 62' bank 25' high down to the Mad River, well and telephone pole went into middle of river, bank is continuing to deteriorate and is within 7' of the house --- I have been declared ineligible for the Buy Out because house was still under construction ----- Do any of you have personal knowledge of homes under construction that were bought out in a Federal Disaster Area ???? PLEASE email me privately if you do, as I think there must be a precedent somewhere ----- (Bank stabilization folks cannot determine whether they should do that or not and while they think, house inches toward the edge of the bank) Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 10:16:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25636 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:16:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28530; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:48:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:43:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27960 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:43:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27955 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:43:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip254.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.254]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA30594 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:53:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980825140547.007595ec@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:05:47 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:Stucco over foam wall Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4218 This from the Building Science Corp web site (presuambly written by Lstiburek himself) .... These systems are a disaster when they are applied over metal studs and gypsum or wood sheathing. They don't work because the do not have a drainage plane. For those of you who remember traditional stucco, the drainage plane was the building paper or tar paper installed shingle fashion over the exterior sheathing and under the metal lath. Traditional stucco always leaked rainwater. The function of the building paper or tar paper was to drain this leaking rainwater to the exterior. Brick leaks, wood siding leaks, vinyl siding leaks, etc. That is why all of these exterior claddings have building paper behind them to drain this water back to the exterior. These type of systems are called "forgiving" or water managed. Synthetic stucco systems typically do not have a drainage plane and therefore are a disaster. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 10:16:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25637 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:16:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28534; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:48:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:44:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27973 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:43:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27962 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:43:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip254.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.254]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA13082; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:53:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980825140549.00a4091c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:05:49 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom Vent Fans Cc: iaq@onelist.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4219 Bathroom, like ALL exhaust ventilation systems must be vented to the exterior of the building. Additionally they ought to be tested for the correct flow - since flex duct, long runs, etc. can seriously effect static pressure. We use a home-made flow hood with a 5" square hole & a digital pressure gauge. Ian is correct about the 'white noise' issue, although as the blades accumulate dirt over time, noise increases and we see many homeowners then never using it or unplugging the motor if connected to a light switch. I still like the Fantech, controlled by an Airetrak. See . Also note that an almost foolproof backdraft damper is to make a vertical loop (looks like a cursive lowercase "l" & preferably with aluminum flex duct) towards the end of the run. Beware also condensation in long runs of un-insulated ductwork. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 10:56:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26361 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01135; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:28:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:25:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00751 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:25:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-gateway.csgrp.com (smtp-gateway.csgrp.com [207.31.245.98]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00738 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:24:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199808251424.KAA00738@solstice.crest.org> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 9:10 -0500 From: "John Livermore" To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "Speireag Alden" Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom Vent Fans Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4220 Another excellent bath fan is the Preventilator from Tamarack Technologies. It has a motorized, insulated, and weatherstripped outside damper that only opens when the fan switch is turned on. It can be mounted directly on an exterior wall or ceiling mounted and ducted to the outside. Performs great in blower door tests. I installed one in my house and I love it. Available through Energy Federation, Inc. 800-876-0660 John Livermore Conservation Services Group 441 Stuart St. Boston, MA 02116 (617) 236-1500 Conservation Services Group 441 Stuart Street - 5th Floor Boston, Massachusetts 02116 617.236.1500 voice 617.236.7899 fax If you have received this mail in error or wish to comment on any aspect of it, please contact Mark Baker at mark.baker@csgrp.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 11:40:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA27470 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:40:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03615; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:12:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:08:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03263 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:07:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from airmail.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.20.220]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03259 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:07:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from arb.ca.gov ([146.114.11.17]) by airmail.arb.ca.gov (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with ESMTP id AAA8552; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:13:34 -0700 Message-ID: <35E2D60B.1805CE83@arb.ca.gov> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:19:39 -0700 From: "Thomas J. Phillips" Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, jwhite@cmhc-schl.gc.ca, lublinerm@wsu.edu Subject: GBlist: Bathroom Vent Fans Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4221 Speireag: Washington State Energy Office developed a great list of low-noise exhaust fans that met their 1991 Ventilation and IAQ standards. Some fans are down to 0.5 sones. The list includes the sone ratings (they required 1 sone or less), list price, and NW suppliers & phone numbers (some 800 numbers). The list was periodically updated and may still be available from WSU Cooperative Extension. Their bldg. standard handbooks and brochures provide installation information for fans and other VIAQ items too.. Contact: Karen Messmer, (360) 956-2090, messmerk@wsu.edu, http://www.energy.wsu.edu/ep/codes/ See also: VIAQ Code at http://www.energy.wsu.edu/ep/codes/, VIAQ.DOC Also, Home Energy magazine has had good articles on this topic in the past (http://www.homeenergy.org/eehem/hem_index.html, e.g., March/April 1996, November/December 1995/Don Stevens). Finally, Jim White at Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp. has written articles on the efficiency of fan sets (systems). Contact: jwhite@cmhc-schl.gc.ca, 800-668-2642. See also: http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/cgi-cmhc/enfrmsite.pl?target=/Research/Reports/index.html, Healthy Housing/Mechanicals and Mechanicals; Housing Research Quarterly, latest edition, Heating and Ventilation section and Energy Efficiency Section, http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/cgi-cmhc/enfrmsite.pl?target=/Research/Reports/index.html; . BTW, their online research site abstracts a recent study of interest to GBlisters: PILOT STUDY OF MOISTURE CONTROL IN STUCCOED STRAW BALE WALLS. Hope this helps, Tom Phillips ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 12:04:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27834 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05186; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:32:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04538 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:31:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay.pair.com (relay1.pair.com [209.68.1.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04525 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:31:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dnatella (asc244.idsonline.com [207.176.21.244]) by relay.pair.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA12611; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:37:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980825112325.00732454@scgcorp.com> X-Sender: dnatella@scgcorp.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:23:25 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Dave Natella Subject: Re: GBlist: Piping in Sand? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4222 I'm not especially skilled in this particular area, but two possible concerns occur to me: 1) Will the soil/sand conditions through which you run the copper pipe be acidic? Will the water being run through the copper pipe be acidic? One house I lived in had acidic well water and the piping (which may have been copper or iron) became leaky. 2) Will you be using copper pipe or copper tubing (i.e., thinner wall thickness)? I wonder if tubing is designed to support eventual soil compression? Good luck. Dave Natella The Scientific Consulting Group, Inc. At 03:00 PM 8/24/1998 -0400, you wrote: >Hallo. > > My house plan calls for running the water pipes through the sand which >is immediately under an earthen floor. There will be plastic between the >ground and the sand, and a layer of rubble under that. > > My intuition tells me to worry about running copper pipe through sand >like that, but my plumber has little experience with polybutylene pipe. [snip] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 12:04:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27839 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05198; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:36:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:32:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04569 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:32:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04550 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uymfdlvk (dial-26-MAX-BTVT-06.ramp.together.net [208.13.204.26]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA30388 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:42:18 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980825110823.007b6100@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:08:23 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re:Bathroom Vent Fans In-Reply-To: <199808250600.CAA16344@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4223 >Subject: GBlist: Bathroom Vent Fans > > > Are the advertised ones any good? Is there anything better? Is there >anything in particular that I should be looking for? > >- -Speireag. I prefer the Panasonic bath fans, which are quiet and low wattage. Some of the Broan's quiet fans are low wattage and others aren't and I (without data) suspect the durability of the Panasonics are better. I did an article in Journal of Light Construction (June 1996) -- you need to pay attention to the ducting, as the quietest fans lose quite a lot of volume if the pressure in the duct goes up very much. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance Inc Montpelier VT 05602 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 12:29:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA28199 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:29:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06775; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:01:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:58:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA06331 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:57:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06323 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.254.120.12] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:12:22 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom Vent Fans Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:09:45 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan cc: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1308086152-1545242@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4224 A more current list of low-sone ventilators can be seen in our REDI database . Look under "Mechanical" or conduct a category search for "fans". The archives of Energy Source Builder also describe many of the fans mentioned previously in this thread. Bruce >Washington State Energy Office developed a great list of low-noise >exhaust fans that met their 1991 Ventilation and IAQ standards. ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 13:18:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA28968 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:18:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09101; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:48:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:43:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08708 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08704 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:42:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199808251642.MAA08704@solstice.crest.org> Received: (qmail 2559 invoked from network); 25 Aug 1998 16:53:20 -0000 Received: from pdx68-i48-08.teleport.com (HELO Kathleen) (204.202.172.86) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 25 Aug 1998 16:53:20 -0000 From: "Ed McNamara" To: , "Frazer Dougherty" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:Stucco over foam wall Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:48:52 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4225 There have been many concerns in the industry the past few years about the failures of EIFS (Exterior Insulating and Finishing Systems - or something like that). The problems come from exactly what Frazer points out - the moisture that invariably infiltrates any siding system had no way to get out of a traditionally installed EIFS system. That installation involved gluing the foam board directly to a gyp sheathing. When water would penetrate a caulk joint at a window, at a transition to another material, or at an expansion joint, it would just sit there and slowly rot the sheathing and framing. Though the technology has been used in Europe for many years, it was apparently used on masonry buildings. Big problems arose in North Carolina a few years back on single family homes. There was a lot of finger pointing about who was at fault - EIFS manufacturers, installers, window manufacturers, etc. The potential liability may have made EIFS manaufacturers slow to adapt, but they now have done so. We are now using EIFS installed with what seems like an adequate drainage system. The building is wrapped with a vapor barrier. A layer of plastic mesh (like a wire lath) is installed. The foam is mechanically fastened rather than glued. We have also used an installation with vertical channels cut into the back of the foam instead of having the mesh layer. We tested this after it was installed by cutting out a one foot square section and pouring water into it and testing to see how much drained and how quickly it drained. In either system, the bottom edge also needs to have openings. Even with these systems, it is critical to take care with the details of any joints and to maintain them regularly. The EIFS skin itself has not been the problem. The whole darn thing hinges on the quality of the caulking. ---------- > From: Frazer Dougherty > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:Stucco over foam wall > Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 7:05 AM > > This from the Building Science Corp web site (presuambly written by > Lstiburek himself) .... > > These systems are a disaster when they are applied over metal studs and > gypsum or wood sheathing. They don't work because the do not have a drainage > plane. For those of you who remember traditional stucco, the drainage plane > was the building paper or tar paper installed shingle fashion over the > exterior sheathing and under the metal lath. Traditional stucco always > leaked rainwater. The function of the building paper or tar paper was to > drain this leaking rainwater to the exterior. Brick leaks, wood siding > leaks, vinyl siding leaks, etc. That is why all of these exterior claddings > have building paper behind them to drain this water back to the exterior. > These type of systems are called "forgiving" or water managed. Synthetic > stucco systems typically do not have a drainage plane and therefore are a > disaster. > best -- > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 > North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com > 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) > Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org > > Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to > contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, > efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the > house as a whole system. > --------------------------------------------------------------- > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 13:44:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA29543 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:44:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10555; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:16:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:12:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA10260 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:12:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10256 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:12:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPT3C; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:30:25 -0400 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDD02A.D18B19C0@Walnut.babb.com>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:18:15 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDD02A.D18B19C0@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: [EP] Community Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:18:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA10257 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4226 This is (part of) my response to Jack Stillwell's wise words: <>(etc.) ooh... Lets please discuss this fascinating subject! Community (what is it, do we need it and why, how to create it or nurture it if it is already there, community and the environment, etc.) <> I have noticed this too. When I lived in Northampton, MA, we would walk the streets most every day, running errands and socializing. We (my husband, daughter and I) had developed friendships with a diversity of folks. More than a few times, we found ourselves standing on the sidewalk with a group of people who had never spoken to one another before, and probably never would speak to one another again after that because they were just so vastly different (in an almost competitive way) from one another. I was always amused at the combinations, and how the people reacted to one another. Some of them became friends... There are difficulties to having such a diversity of friends (a disconnected or fragmented community?). We often fall into the role of mediator... having to listen and speak tactfully in order not to offend one person or another who didn't like someone else or faulted them for some reason... Now, with the global community of the Internet at our fingertips, the diversity has grown... but the mediation and sidewalk meetings lessened... <> Why do Americans moralize the issue of family, yet not promote family economically? Most of us have to work more than one job... Oh, here is the latest conundrum of my *community*: Parents are not allowed to bring their children to school before 8:00. Parents must be at work at 8:00. Parents must take children to daycare before they go to work. The daycare must drive the children to school at 8:00. I suppose the children must return to daycare after school, since most parents work until 5:00 (unless they are in retail or the like, and their hours are more erratic). There is something stinky here. Family and community are both suffering... and I wonder why... Cruelty? Stupidity? Greed? I have been studying alternative communities for years... mainly communes. They all seemed to share the same problems as all communities, when you got down to the nitty gritty... I'm still looking, and imagining. Jack---thanks for the historical/sociological information about community. As always, your comments have given me motivation and ideas.... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 14:09:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA29978 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11950; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:37:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA11414 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11409 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:37:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPT3L; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:55:20 -0400 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDD02E.4C38B620@Walnut.babb.com>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:43:10 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDD02E.4C38B620@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: how embarrassing Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:43:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4227 Greetings, everyone. I just accidentally sent a message intended for a different list. I am sorry... HOW EMBARRASSING! Good Day Jillanna ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 14:10:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA29986 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:10:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12031; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:38:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA11500 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:38:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11492 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:38:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPT3N; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:56:00 -0400 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDD02E.5F995800@Walnut.babb.com>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:43:42 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDD02E.5F995800@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Recall: GBlist: [EP] Community Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:43:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4228 Jillanna Babb would like to recall the message, "GBlist: [EP] Community". ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 14:47:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01048 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13972; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:19:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:15:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13704 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:15:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13700 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:15:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id NAA0000003521; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:25:30 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980825182818.006c94f8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:28:18 -0500 To: Frazer Dougherty , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist:Exhaust fans and static pressure Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4229 At 10:05 AM 25-08-98 -0400, you wrote: >Bathroom, like ALL exhaust ventilation systems must be vented to the >exterior of the building. Additionally they ought to be tested for the >correct flow - since flex duct, long runs, etc. can seriously effect static >pressure. We use a home-made flow hood with a 5" square hole & a digital >pressure gauge. I've spent some time recently with the exhaust fans issue, looking for something quiet, good cfm and preferably with a fluorescent light; the choice is very limited and the sales people can't give me answers to some questions. Grainger claims they have the best fan selection and indeed their rather pricey remote Fantec, seems to meet my kitchen exhaust needs. If you place a good fan up high you don't have to worry about the noise. Did it once in a kitchen and it worked perfectly--totally quiet and never needed repair. Had about a 18 foot run with a straight duct. Someone else spec'd it for me. Now I need to know more about such things. BTW sometimes it's more practical to separate the fan and the light-may cost less. Re the question, how is static pressure measured? ie how can one tell how long a run will affect the fan? Thanks, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 16:21:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA03239 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:21:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA19234; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:53:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:49:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18838 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:49:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18834 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:49:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DMH79K9Z; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:58:10 EDT To: Greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:58:35 -0700 Subject: GBlist: pest control Message-ID: <19980825.155835.6566.3.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,9-16 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4230 Help, I know this is a bit off the subject, but pest control has been irregularly discussed in the past and I hope someone out there has a practical solution. Though we have had some in the past, this year we are overrun with mealy bugs. They are in the rice, cereals, flour etc. What safely and effectively controls them? Since this is around the food I do not want to use a chemical solution. Thanks. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 16:32:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA03498 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA19874; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:04:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:00:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA19589 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:00:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19585 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:00:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.129] (ka2-92.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.92]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23620 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 16:10:56 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-Id: Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:46:39 -0400 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Bituthene and Substitutes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA19586 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4231 Howdy, all. Thanks for the advice on the many recent questions. I'll get back individually a bit later. I'm putting together the supplies for putting the roof on. It's a living roof, and I'm going for two layers of bitumen membrane. W.R. Grace's "Bituthene" comes well recommended, but the nearest building supply company which can get it is some distance away. They can order it, but they don't stock it. They suggested Johns Mansfield's "Roof Defender" as an alternative, for about 30% less. They sent me some literature, which talked about reinforcement at trouble spots on roofs. My local building supply recommended Vycor "Ice and Water Shield". The literature for that only talks about trouble spots, too. The literature for Bituthene talks about covering whole surfaces. None of the places had a clue what I was talking about when I said that it was for a living roof, which in my opinion makes their recommendations pretty damn suspect. Does anyone have any experience with "Roof defender"? Is it the same stuff, or inferior? Are there alternatives which an owner-builder can order easily? I tried contact Soprema, whose products were also recommended, and it was clear that I was a very small fish for them. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 17:33:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA05081 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:33:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23213; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:04:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:00:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA22780 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:00:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA22775 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:00:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPTRD; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:18:11 -0400 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDD04A.A267A260@Walnut.babb.com>; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:06:00 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDD04A.A267A260@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'ANovelli@aol.com'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: flyash as pozzolan Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:01:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id RAA22777 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4232 Greetings Tony and other GBlist friends... I appreciate the thought-provoking questions. I have asked some of the same ones myself, you can be sure... Tony wrote: << We certainly need to address how we can better use any and all of our waste products, though I tend to err on the side of caution. As Bill McDonough says in his approach toward eliminating the concept of 'waste,' (i.e., waste equals food), there is a caveat that these waste products are part of one of two completely isolated loops: One of 'organic' nutrients, which comprise all organic matter suitable for inclusion in the food chain, and the other 'technical' nutrients, which are not suitable for the above, and eventually need to be recycled completely within the technical infrastructure. >> These are wise words... For more William McDonough wisdom, check out http://minerva.acc.virginia.edu/~arch/pub/sermon.html. There you will find an address called *Design, Ecology, Ethics and the Making of Things*. In my opinion, a beautiful and thought-provoking statement... I am in agreement with the concept of separating organic and technical. The problem is this... We have decades of piled-up waste, technical stuff that cannot biodegrade. What do we do NOW? I am doing my best to close the systems in the AAC plant... to buy recycled and send the waste to be recycled... to reuse... It is not as difficult with the new AAC plant as it is with the 50-year-old lumberyard. Tony wrote: << 2. My understanding of the benefits of using flyash may be incomplete, as I've heard that the only ash that is being used, or perhaps legally *can* be used, is considered 'safe,' i.e., my assumption being it contains no leachable toxins. I've not supported this use because I have yet to believe that: a) the toxins, whether regulated or not cannot safely be stabilized in so pourous and dynamic a material, and b) even if regulated probably wouldn't be truly 'safe' for all uses when considering exposure times, construction and demolition exposures, etc. And with my experience in the hazardous waste remediation field, I sincerely doubt there could be any effective way of limiting toxin concentrations that wouldn't rely heavily on dilution, rather than remediation. Any thoughts on this? I asked some people, and this is the answer I got: <> Flyash is not a hazardous waste, by the way. It is much safer to use than CCA (wood treatment)... In fact, AAC is used by some people in homes for the chemically/environmentally sensitive (I found that information on the Internet, and would be glad to retrace the steps if someone wants to know exactly....). AAC is inorganic, nonallergenic, and safer to use than many other construction methods. I do not believe that it is perfect, but that it is a really good alternative! << Transitional strategies that allow the rapid weening off of coal and other fossil fuels are obviously necessary, as well as ways to safely utilize the 'waste' products created in the mean time. Perhaps the safest usage would be to allow flyash only for road construction or other low-contact uses? >> I agree that we need some alternatives to the current fossil fuel dependence. There is just so much flyash, though, that I do not think roads and AAC together could clean up enough of it... There are researchers investigating flyash uses intensively... I have been in contact with a few. I do not think anyone is competing over the stuff, though. Seems like there is plenty to go around!!! Kind regards, Jillanna Babb-Cheshul Babb Cellular Concrete http://www.babb.com/BCC ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 18:10:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA05716 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:10:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25192; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:42:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:38:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24797 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:38:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.gcol.com (ns.gcol.com [205.177.170.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24784 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gcol.com ([205.177.170.68]) by ns.gcol.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA14696 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:02:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35E33015.1642DA9E@gcol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:43:49 -0400 From: Diane Ryckebusch X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: pest control References: <19980825.155835.6566.3.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4233 Hi Beverly, My parents are both immigrants from France and have all sorts of methods for bug control. I don't know if they were common just in my family, in France or in Europe, but here it goes: My grandmother swears by the placement of bay leaves in the containers of the foods that seem to appeal to the moths. I have carried on my grandmother's method and put 3 or 4 bay leaves into my containers of wheat flour and white flour. It has worked beautifully. Cereal has not been a problem and so I have not bothered. Also something that I have seen my parents do is this: If the container is one that has a screw-on lid, put a piece of plastic (I usually just recycle a small, old plastic bag) on the top of the open container and screw the lid onto it, incorporating the plastic into the threads of the jar. This was mainly effective in preventing ants from getting into jars of honey. Hope this helps! Diane Ryckebusch dshapiro@gcol.com Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > Help, > > I know this is a bit off the subject, but pest control has been > irregularly discussed in the past and I hope someone out there has a > practical solution. > > Though we have had some in the past, this year we are overrun with mealy > bugs. They are in the rice, cereals, flour etc. What safely and > effectively controls them? Since this is around the food I do not want > to use a chemical solution. > > Thanks. > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > Boca Raton, FL > www.environsinteriors.com > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 19:02:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA06450 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:02:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA27614; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:34:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:30:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27277 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:30:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from epud.org (www.epud.org [208.8.142.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27271 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:30:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dstill ([162.162.4.195]) by epud.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA03834 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:50:45 -0700 Message-Id: <199808252250.PAA03834@epud.org> From: "Dean Still" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: [EP] Community/Jillanna Babb Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:44:47 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4234 I live in a community called Aprovecho Research Center. We (ten staff) run a school teaching Organic Gardening, Appropriate Technology, Sustainable Forestry, and Indigenous Skills. Most of the staff live on our 40 acre land trust. Aprovecho has been doing something like this since 1981. In my opinion here is what community is: that someone picks you up from the airport. That the work of your mates makes your own work succeed better. That you know what people around you are thinking. What it is not: everyone being friends and having no problems. I lived in a small village of 50 people for ten years in Mexico. The village was extremely isolated. People there had real dislikes for eachother. People slept with the 'wrong people', they one upped eachother is business deals, etc. There had even been a murder. But the sense of being of this place and a part of a close knit bond was very evident. The village and one's self where intertwined. I think that community is fostered by having inter-related work. It's great if everyone, at the same time, can do their own work without interference from others, to solve problems and feel that reward. The community shouldn't micromanage individuals. Also, the people who last at Aprovecho, really do tolerate and appreciate diversity. Food freaks and people with a strict plan tend to butt heads and inevitably become uncomfortable. Lastly, we had to temper consensus decision making. It had assumed an all too frequent variation: tyranny by a minority. Now, if consensus cannot be reached, we vote. And since making this change and defeating tyranny we have not had to vote for three years. Fraternally, Dean Still ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 23:44:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA09452 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:44:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08605; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:16:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:12:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08298 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dewdrop2.mindspring.com (dewdrop2.mindspring.com [207.69.200.82]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08294 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:12:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip35.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.35]) by dewdrop2.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA05804; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:22:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980826033422.0075fe88@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:34:22 -0400 To: "David F. Lambertson" , greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist:Exhaust fans and static pressure Cc: iaq@onelist.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id XAA08295 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4235 At 01:28 PM 8/25/1998 -0500, David F. Lambertson wrote: >BTW sometimes it's more practical to separate the fan and the light-may cost >less. Yes - baths should have at least 2 lights - ambient & task (more if the tasks are greater) & ALL need moisture ventilation. One reason to use an Aire-Trak (or other time constant/variable speed fan controller) is that people don't necessarily think. For example the Aire-Trak can be set for various on-off intervals, as well as fan speed – now yr next question ... >Re the question, how is static pressure measured? ie how can one tell how >long a run will affect the fan? Assuming you have a device that can measure pressure differentials (see ) - covering the exhaust grill with a box or bucket that has a given size (preferably round) hole and a pressure tap (not too close to the hole). Measuring pressure tap (i.e., the orifice flow) can give you the cfm for the exhaust system. The formula, based upon sea level measurements, is: CFM = 1.07 x A x sqrt (delta P) A = sq in of the hole in box/bucket delta P = pressure drop across the hole (in Pascals) Once you measure fan flow, you can change fan speed to provide the correct exhaust - assuming you installed a speed controller. Plus you now have a really inexpensive addition to supplement your expensive pressure gauge - our web site used to detail this & unsolicited comments said that it came within 10% of their $2k flowhoods. We drill a 3.5" diameter hole in a one gallon delicatessen bucket, put the tap reasonably high on the sloped side & use a good quality pipewrap or weather stripping (to make sure it doesn't mark-up the ceiling/wall) around the open face & taped spreadsheets with high & low pascals vs cfm graphs. Please email for large quantity orders. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Aug 25 23:47:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA09534 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:47:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA08878; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:19:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:15:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08504 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:15:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08500 for ; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:15:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip35.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.35]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA27919; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:25:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980826033758.0075ff08@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:37:58 -0400 To: "David F. Lambertson" , greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist:Exhaust fans and static pressure Cc: iaq@onelist.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id XAA08501 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4236 At 01:28 PM 8/25/1998 -0500, David F. Lambertson wrote: >BTW sometimes it's more practical to separate the fan and the light-may cost >less. Yes - baths should have at least 2 lights - ambient & task (more if the tasks are greater) & ALL need moisture ventilation. One reason to use an Aire-Trak (or other time constant/variable speed fan controller) is that people don't necessarily think. For example the Aire-Trak can be set for various on-off intervals, as well as fan speed – now yr next question ... >Re the question, how is static pressure measured? ie how can one tell how >long a run will affect the fan? Assuming you have a device that can measure pressure differentials (see ) - covering the exhaust grill with a box or bucket that has a given size (preferably round) hole and a pressure tap (not too close to the hole). Measuring pressure tap (i.e., the orifice flow) can give you the cfm for the exhaust system. The formula, based upon sea level measurements, is: CFM = 1.07 x A x sqrt (delta P) A = sq in of the hole in box/bucket delta P = pressure drop across the hole (in Pascals) Once you measure fan flow, you can change fan speed to provide the correct exhaust - assuming you installed a speed controller. Plus you now have a really inexpensive addition to supplement your expensive pressure gauge - our web site used to detail this & unsolicited comments said that it came within 10% of their $2k flowhoods. We drill a 3.5" diameter hole in a one gallon delicatessen bucket, put the tap reasonably high on the sloped side & use a good quality pipewrap or weather stripping (to make sure it doesn't mark-up the ceiling/wall) around the open face & taped spreadsheets with high & low pascals vs cfm graphs. Please email for large quantity orders. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 26 01:54:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA10370 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 01:54:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA13653; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 01:26:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Aug 1998 01:22:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA13427 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 01:22:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f230.hotmail.com [207.82.251.121]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA13423 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 01:22:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 6843 invoked by uid 0); 26 Aug 1998 05:32:12 -0000 Message-ID: <19980826053212.6842.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.11.36.120 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:32:12 PDT X-Originating-IP: [208.11.36.120] From: "Susanne Machler" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist:Exhaust fans :: Solar Content-Type: text/plain Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:32:12 PDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4237 Hi everyone...been listening keenly to the bathroom fan thread, but what about solar exhaust fans, has anyone used them and have any experiences to share? Would like to hear from folks all over, have looked at a few models but would like to hear it first hand before deciding. Thanks, Sue aka greensue@hotmail.com (homesteader in the Caribbean) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 26 02:58:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA10781 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 02:58:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA16112; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 02:29:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Aug 1998 02:25:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA15903 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 02:25:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA15899 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 02:25:37 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1YOEa11435 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 02:35:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <2b1023d8.35e3aca1@aol.com> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 02:35:12 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: community Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4238 Jillanna, I would hope your comments on community inspire others, in spite of what you view as a mistake in sending your post to this list. Once one steps outside the narrow bounds of building technology, the really important issues of buildings emerge: how they effect people's lives. Nothing in the business of building is more important than the influence of the built environment on how people interact as a community. In designing a ten lot subdivision in my own town, I have found it incredibly frustrating trying to deal with all the regulatory impediments to building enabling factors of real community between neighbors. Those wanting to blame "developers" and selfishness for the bland isolation of the suburbs should look at their own local zoning and planning regulations, attend a couple meetings of those esteemed boards and then join them and change them. I'd love to hear more thoughts on community from this group. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 26 10:09:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14469 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27467; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:40:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:36:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27099 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27090 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:36:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id IAA0000002105; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:46:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980826134944.006be644@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:49:44 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Wood fired furnaces Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4239 I now have information from a variety of makers of wood-fired furnaces and suggestions as well from this group about which are the best of these. What I would appreciate seeing are comments from any on this list who have actually used this type of heating device. Thanks Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 26 10:40:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15166 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:40:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28840; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:12:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:08:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28519 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:08:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28515 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DMK68B23; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:18:29 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:19:03 -0700 Subject: GBlist: pest control Message-ID: <19980826.101904.6590.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-9 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4240 Sacie & Dianne, Thanks to both of you for your quick response. I will use the bay leaves right away while trying to get the other product ordered. Maybe we can take back the kitchen. I really hate wasting anything. Beverly Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 26 10:55:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15353 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:55:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29587; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:24:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29294 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:23:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29290 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.134] (rkd6.acadia.net [205.217.217.134]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA22344 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:34:18 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:34:01 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Piping in Sand? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4241 >Hallo. > > My house plan calls for running the water pipes through the sand which >is immediately under an earthen floor. There will be plastic between the >ground and the sand, and a layer of rubble under that. > > My intuition tells me to worry about running copper pipe through sand >like that, but my plumber has little experience with polybutylene pipe. He >seems to think that copper would be all right. This is for hot water and >cold. > > What do people think? Are there alternatives which I haven't thought of? > >-Speireag. Dear Speireag, I think your intuition is sound. Your plumber needs to broaden his experience to include cross-linked polyethylene pipe or "Pex" pipe, which is ideal for the application you propose. One manufacturer of Pex piping is the Wirsbro company, who can be reached in North America at 1-800-321-4739. Good luck. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 26 11:22:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA15925 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:22:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01240; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:54:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:51:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00915 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.gis.net (ns2.gis.net [208.218.130.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00911 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:50:46 -0400 (EDT) From: redelson@gis.net Received: from [209.244.239.239] (host239.209.244.239.gis.net [209.244.239.239]) by ns2.gis.net (8.8.8/8.8.8+djf) with ESMTP id LAA03930 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:05:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: redelson@208.218.130.20 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Green: bug control in food Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4242 hi all, and especially beverly, this is an easy problem to fix if you are talking about the worms that turn to moths (often found in organic or bulk foods you get from the coop or healthfood store). after you buy the rice, flour, cereals etc put it in the freezer for 3 days. kills all the larve. then put in airtight containers (like tighly sealed jars) on yr shelves. of course it is helpful to get rid of the foods that are infested now, or maybe put *them* in the freezer too to kill the little buggers, if you don't mind eating frozen/killed larve. :-) warmly rebecca Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > Help, > > I know this is a bit off the subject, but pest control has been > irregularly discussed in the past and I hope someone out there has a > practical solution. > > Though we have had some in the past, this year we are overrun with mealy > bugs. They are in the rice, cereals, flour etc. What safely and > effectively controls them? Since this is around the food I do not want > to use a chemical solution. > > Thanks. > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > Boca Raton, FL > www.environsinteriors.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 26 11:49:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16490 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:49:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02874; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:21:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:17:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02396 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:17:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199808261517.LAA02396@solstice.crest.org> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 08:47:04 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Slippery Soil and floors Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4243 Much to my dismay I've learned that the soil in our area is unsuitable for concrete slab construction grade; i.e. over the years it moves. This is a considerable disappointment because I had planned to build a passive solar concrete floored house stepping down the grade to follow the natural contour of the land (basically two large rooms). Would the engineers in this group give me a very brief response to construction alternatives I might have? Obviously I'm going to need local professional advice but I would like to get some handle on ingenious suggestions and these seem to abound within this list. I'll be building on a slope where the underlying rocks are limestone boulders; this means our quarries have plenty of 'lime-screening' an inexpensive easily compacted fill material. I just used it to fill a one foot high stem wall before laying a brick floor in a cabin. Regarding an alternative floor material, years ago in FHB I read an article about using compacted soil to form large in situ blocks for flooring; it appeared to be a very attractive material and would feel 'softer' than concrete I would imagine. I had thought I would try both concrete and these. Any experience out there with making these? Also our local NPR station is built of blocks of local clay material and dirt, rammed earth style and though I wouldn't be interested in making little clay blocks, this process could be used for large floor blocks I should think. Both of these possibilities involve our own labor, an attractive proposition. Naively, BTW, I thought since limestone is a bountiful indigenous material, that a limestone floor would be lovely. I forgot about all the labor required to make it, and boy it is expensive. Thanks for all suggestions Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 26 15:05:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19679 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:05:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14829; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:37:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:31:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13867 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:31:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13840 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:31:31 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DMLM8BAM; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:40:37 EDT To: odesign@sprynet.com Cc: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:01:02 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: greywater in the winter Message-ID: <19980826.140206.-70097.5.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.9 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-9,11-91 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4244 FYI, At our Building Coalition meeting last night we had a representative from the Texas Natural Resource Conservation Commission (TNRCC) confirm for those in attendance that by law and code the only surface greywater that Texans are allowed to expel on the ground is that from a residential washing machine. On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 14:29:13 -0700 Art Ludwig writes: >David F. Lambertson wrote: >> >> I am plumbing a separate line for the greywater from the >bathroom >> sink and the shower to be distributed downhill via a simple >perforated pipe >> system to the trees and plants that grow below our cabin (we're on a >hill). >> I have presumed that I can't do this during the winter when I have >assumed >> the outlet will freeze. Am I correct? >> If so, have any of you had experience with the Jade >catalogue's >> three-way valve that is sold for the purpose of diverting water? >My >> concern is an residual water in the lines that might sit there >fermenting >> for months. Suggestions? Or is a winter greywater system workable? > We're >> in Kansas, where it normally freezes during the winter months and >sometimes >> stays there for a while. >> Sacie Lambertson >> >Here's a few thoughts... > >1) Perforated pipe as distribution >Check "greywater misinformation on the web >"http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/odesign/misinfo.html for reasons not >to >use perforated pipe. > >2) Freezing >I personally don's see much frost but my understaning is that >greywater >reuse all winter long is feasible with the right system. On page 11 >of >my book "create an oasis with greywater" seven systems of twenty are >considered adaptable for freezing. > >3) Three way valve >If these are Jandy valves, they are the best available (though still a >ways from ideal). On page 35 of my book is a simple, homemade >automatic >switch between close to surface and below frost level distribution >options, along with other info on cold climates. > >4) Line funk >The lines should be plumbed with constant slope downhill so they >drain. > >Overall I'd say the winter greywater system is workable, but will take >a >bit more research and care in the detailing to implement successfully. > > >Hope this helps. > > >Art >************* >Art Ludwig >Oasis Design >Ecological Design publishing & consulting >E mail: Web site: > >5 San Marcos Trout Club, Santa Barbara, CA 93105-9726, Fax: 805 >967-3229 >Phone: 967-9956 >Please do not distribute our e mail address to the general public. >************* > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 26 15:05:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19680 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:05:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14824; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:37:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:31:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13832 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13810 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:31:26 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DMLM8AZV; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:40:37 EDT To: greensue@hotmail.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:47:02 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist:Exhaust fans :: Solar Message-ID: <19980826.140206.-70097.1.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.9 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,5-6,8-17,19-40 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4245 I have used (and sold) the Holly Solar fans. This includes their box fan, venturi vent fans and the attic fan. They appear to work just fine. At least no returns to date. We also offer the AE 12 & 24 Volt ceiling fans which are AC fans which have been rebuilt to operate on DC voltage. These low maintenance products that put solar energy directly to work. Let me know if you have more interest. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7147 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.sbtdesigns.com On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:32:12 PDT "Susanne Machler" writes: > >Hi everyone...been listening keenly to the bathroom fan thread, but >what >about solar exhaust fans, has anyone used them and have any >experiences >to share? >Would like to hear from folks all over, have looked at a few models >but >would like to hear it first hand before deciding. > >Thanks, Sue aka greensue@hotmail.com (homesteader in the Caribbean) > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 26 18:56:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA25444 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:56:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA27247; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:29:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:24:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA26690 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:23:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.sprynet.com (m3.sprynet.com [165.121.1.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26684 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:23:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 209.154.97.13 (sf-dnpqc-013.compuserve.net [209.154.97.13]) by m3.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA03177 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35E4901A.740@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:45:50 -0700 From: Art Ludwig Reply-To: odesign@sprynet.com Organization: Oasis Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: greywater in the winter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4246 sbtauto@juno.com wrote: > > FYI, At our Building Coalition meeting last night we had a representative from > the Texas Natural Resource Conservation Commission (TNRCC) confirm for > those in attendance that by law and code the only surface greywater that > Texans are allowed to expel on the ground is that from a residential > washing machine. > Interesting. Did he really say SURFACE application? This would be the first legal surface application of greywater I've heard of in the US (greywater is allowed to be distributed on the surface in Australia). I'd be surprised if this was really the law, as washing machine water can be laden with baby feces, which freaks out regulators. I've noticed that government officials often aren't very clear on their own laws. One (unamed) municipality has a pretty sensible greywater law which is illegal according to the less sensible state law which supercedes and predates it. Many permitted greywater systems are not in compliance with the law but meet the standards of the inspector involved. Officals often go by personal opinion. Perhaps this official meant that he is a law-abiding citizen, and his washing machine is plumbed to the great outdoors! Last I heard Texas would let you irrigate with greywater in theory, but testing requirements were so onerous that no one in their right mind would pursue a legal system (this info is a few years old). If it is really legal to dump laundry water on the surface I'd love to obtain a copy of the law for my files. Art ************* Art Ludwig Oasis Design Ecological Design publishing & consulting E mail: Web site: 5 San Marcos Trout Club, Santa Barbara, CA 93105-9726, Fax: 805 967-3229 Phone: 967-9956 Please do not distribute our e mail address to the general public. ************* ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 26 18:56:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA25443 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:56:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA27245; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:29:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:23:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA26676 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:23:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.sprynet.com (m3.sprynet.com [165.121.1.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26671 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:23:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 209.154.97.13 (sf-dnpqc-013.compuserve.net [209.154.97.13]) by m3.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA03118 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:44:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35E48F49.4468@sprynet.com> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:42:20 -0700 From: Art Ludwig Reply-To: odesign@sprynet.com Organization: Oasis Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Slippery Soil and floors Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4247 In New Zealand I saw beeswaxed adobe floors. One was mortered blocks, the other was just poured mud. I think it had gravel underneath, maybe a plastic vapor barrier as well. The large cracks in the dried initial pour were filled with a different color clay, leaving a beautiful, organic pattern. Sorry-don't know construction details or procedure, but I do know it had a nice finish from the beeswax (it looked like linoleum) was warm and soft to sit on, much nicer than concrete. Art ************* Art Ludwig Oasis Design Ecological Design publishing & consulting E mail: Web site: 5 San Marcos Trout Club, Santa Barbara, CA 93105-9726, Fax: 805 967-3229 Phone: 967-9956 Please do not distribute our e mail address to the general public. ************* ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 26 19:50:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA26187 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:50:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29252; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:20:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:15:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA28973 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:15:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA28966 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:15:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id SAA0000029418; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:25:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980826232814.006d1ef0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:28:14 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Beeswaxed adobe floors Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4248 Anyone know anything about how to do this type of floor? Sounds very very nice. Sacie Lambertson >In New Zealand I saw beeswaxed adobe floors. One was mortered blocks, >the other was just poured mud. I think it had gravel underneath, maybe >a plastic vapor barrier as well. The large cracks in the dried initial >pour were filled with a different color clay, leaving a beautiful, >organic pattern. Sorry-don't know construction details or procedure, >but I do know it had a nice finish from the beeswax (it looked like >linoleum) was warm and soft to sit on, much nicer than concrete. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 26 20:05:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA26378 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 20:05:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29937; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:32:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA29606 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:32:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA29602 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:32:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay1.mnsinc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA03881 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:42:42 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:41:41 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: pex/hydronic heat Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4249 980826 Nothing wrong with PEX PB pipe that I can see, plus it is quieter than metal pipe. I ran a great deal of it through our interior walls and can barely hear even the 3/4" line when the water runs. Use insulation on both line (H & Cold) in appls other than floor heating, even in non-outside walls/spaces. Quiets them & reduces sweating. For others's info, I believe there are specs for using PEX for hydronic heating, be sure you get familiar with them. PEX is a brand name for US Brass, originators of the ill-fated gray QUEST piping (class action lawsuits put them out of that line & forced redesign). The tools for DIY are fairly costly, but I have had good results, never a leaking joint, of about 200 so far, using the "crimp rings". Good luck jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Aug 26 22:33:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA28336 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:33:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA04940; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:01:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA04562 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:01:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA04558 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:01:39 -0400 (EDT) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv14_b1.1) id 1WBYa27697 for ; Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:11:27 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <6bc9d124.35e4c051@aol.com> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 22:11:27 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Duct tape don't tape ducts Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4250 This news clip caught my eye and I thought might be of interest to the group. I like the line that duct tape "... failed reliably." Ian Shapiro PACIFIC GROVE, Calif. (AP) -- Duct tape may be useful for all manner of home repairs -- except to seal ducts. The familiar sticky silver tape can be used to patch a wall, mend a rip in your jeans and even hold the bumper on your car. But researchers at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory said duct tapes were never before tested to see how well they seal together sections of metal ducts that carry hot or cold air. ``What we found was that duct tape almost always failed,'' said Max Sherman, a physicist who leads the group studying the energy performance of buildings, said at a conference Monday. ``It failed reliably and often quite catastrophically.'' Energy experts say 30 percent of the hot or cold is lost on the way to its destination, and failed tape could be responsible for part of that loss. A tape maker was surprised by the new research. ``I can honestly say I have not had one field failure come back to my laboratory,'' said Jerry M. Serra, vice president for research at Kendall Polyken in Massachusetts. ``Maybe they're just not complaining, I don't know.'' AP-NY-08-26-98 1902EDT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 27 07:19:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA03152 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 07:19:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA19927; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 06:51:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Aug 1998 06:47:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA19537 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 06:47:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199808271047.GAA19537@solstice.crest.org> Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:52:51 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Athena &Bill Steen Subject: Re: GBlist: Beeswaxed adobe floors Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4251 >Anyone know anything about how to do this type of floor? Sounds very very >nice. >Sacie Lambertson Sacie, > I used to think that we knew alot about earthen floors, but as time goes on, it becomes more and more apparent how little we know about them. However, before that happened, we managed to condense some our better ideas/findings into a small booklet that we sell for $10 (includes shipping). Its simple to follow and if you follow the basic approach described within, it will give predictable results. Since the publication of that booklet we have explored numerous different ways of constructing these floors and are presently having a great deal of fun developing new techniques, colors and finishes. For that reason, I implied that we now know little compared to what we originally thought when we wrote the booklet. In case you are interested in actively learning more about these floors along with earthen and lime plasters, we hold a workshop at our site in southeastern Arizona, Oct 8 thru 11. Bill Steen > Athena and Bill Steen The Canelo Project HC1 Box 324 Canelo/Elgin, AZ 85611 (520)455-5548 (520)455-9360 FAX absteen@dakotacom.net http://www.deatech.com/canelo ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 27 09:28:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04093 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:28:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24625; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:00:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:57:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24150 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:56:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24145 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:56:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.93] (ka3-93.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.93]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA24476 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:07:14 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 03:27:37 -0400 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Piping in Sand? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id IAA24146 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4252 Hallo, all. Thank you all for the advice. Many experienced builders had reservations about putting the copper in sand. Some suggested sleeving it within another pipe for protection, or simply going with various forms of plastic. One suggested piping up into the attic space and dropping it down wherever I wanted it. I think I'll run it up above. That way any failure and re-piping are very easy, and I won't have to go down through a hydronic floor and passive solar cinder block layer. I don't think that it will detract from the rough, rustic look. Might even enhance it if we do it right. Thanks to all for the sage advice and the warnings. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 27 09:29:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04106 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:29:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24464; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:55:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24063 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:55:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24058 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:55:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.93] (ka3-93.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.93]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11655 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:05:52 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 05:03:34 -0400 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Seasonal Hydro? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id IAA24060 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4253 Hallo, all. It seems to be my week for questions. That's because I'm waiting for a contractor on the house project, and I've done just about everything I can do before he arrives. :/ I have a pond which flows seasonally (and year-round with help). When it's flowing, it can get as high as ten or fifteen gallons per minutes. Just over a very small ridge, there's a fall of about fifty feet. I'm contemplating, in a year or so, trying to divert the exit flow down the fifty foot fall, either by cutting through that ridge or by going around the end of it. The resulting flow will still go into the same creek which it already goes into. It's likely to be a bit expensive either way. Does anyone have any experience with micro-hydro generation like this? Any tips on how I might do a cost analysis to see if it's worth it? Eventually I'd like to be completely on solar, and I'm thinking that the hydro might seasonally complement the solar, so the hydro doesn't have to stand alone. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 27 12:43:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08617 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:43:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05104; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:15:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:11:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04788 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:11:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04784 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:11:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.114.185.44] (ua11.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.44]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA07953 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:21:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980824033940.006c7218@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:11:27 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Moisture under metal roof Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4254 Sacie, I have a few thoughts. Under cold conditions: 1) comdensation happens under metal roofs more frequently than others because they are so impermeable, conductive and have no ability to absorb liquid water (which I refer to as the pampars effect) 2) air leaving the house through actual openings in the roof system are the things which will cause the greatest problems, so air seal, airseal, airseal. 3) If I understand right, the weakest thermal layer will be 1/2 inch aspenite, a 1/2 inch spline, 4-1/2 inches expended styrene, 1/2 inch spline and 1/2 inch aspentite. That's going to keep the outside of the roof pretty cool. 4) When installing metal roof on solid sheathing, I suggest putting a layer of rosin paper between the 30# felt and the roof. The reason is the expansion and contraction of the metal roof goofs up the felt if it sticks to the roofing. I'd also consider ice and water shield in place of the felt for added protection against condensation under the roof caused by night sky radiation loss cooling the roof below the outside air temperature at this time of year. Lastly, I like this kind of roof. - Terry > After three weeks underground so to speak, while we prepare and >watch over the raising of our SIP cabin (the subject for another note), I >have a question for the groupto which I would appreciate reasoned responses. > We are putting a consealed fastened metal roof on the structure, a >process that requires 30 # felt underneath. The subsurface is OSB. I am >concerned about the eventual moisture that might accumulate under the metal >roof that would rot the OSB. My concern is based on the fact that while the >SIP roof was originally supposed to be 6 1/2 inches of EPS, once the I beam >splines were installed and extra EPS was routed out to make the splicing >together of these easy, the roof has less that the 6 1/2 inches at the four >foot splines, ie there are holes around the I beams where warm air could >rise from the interior. Hence my concern about the moisture problem. > Should I be concerned? And if so, what to do about a future >problem? Thanks, Sacie Lambertson > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 27 13:05:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA09274 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06619; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:37:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:33:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06074 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:32:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06070 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.254.120.253] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:47:21 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Seasonal Hydro? Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:44:46 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Speireag Alden" , "Green Building List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1307911253-1671443@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4255 Speireag I also have potential site for microhydro, but that project is way down the list. So, I have done a very superficial web search and found that Real Goods offers a service for calculating the generating potential of a proposed site. I think they charge $20 for the analysis. Of course, they also sell the equipment. I have a vague recollection of the formula for calculating generating capacity is that it's fairly simple. I'm sure it's printed in books, although I don't know which ones. My biggest concern is finding a way to accurately measure head. I have a stream that flows off a very steep slope. The intake will be a thousand feet up the slope from the turbine. Without surveying equipment or skills, I'm not sure how to get a reasonable measurement. Bruce S >Does anyone have any experience with micro-hydro generation like this? >Any tips on how I might do a cost analysis to see if it's worth it? >Eventually I'd like to be completely on solar, and I'm thinking that the >hydro might seasonally complement the solar, so the hydro doesn't have to >stand alone. ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 27 13:07:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA09310 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06866; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:39:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:35:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06285 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:34:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oregon.uoregon.edu (oregon.uoregon.edu [128.223.32.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06270 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:34:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cataloging.uoregon.edu (libdell96-18.uoregon.edu) by OREGON.UOREGON.EDU (PMDF V5.1-12 #26538) with SMTP id <01J13DXR1JQE8WWLVG@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:45:15 PDT Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:45:14 -0700 From: Jon Hoyt Subject: GBlist: quiet kitchen vent fans To: Greenbuilding Reply-to: Jon Hoyt Message-id: <005701bdd1da$10bdecc0$2655df80@cataloging.uoregon.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 X-Priority: 3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA06276 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4256 There has been some talk lately about quiet bath fans, which got me to thinking about the vent hood in my kitchen. I try to use it whenever I'm cooking because my gas stove has no other vents. The problem is, it makes so much noise you can't even carry on a conversation when you're standing near it. Does anyone know if there are low sone kitchen vent fans available, and if so how much do they cost. I don't want to have to replace the hood itself, just the fan. I assume that because there's more grease in the exhaust, using a bathroom fan won't really work, is this true? Thanks, Jon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 27 14:41:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA10964 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12780; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:09:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12312 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12306 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:09:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (tigris189.pei.sympatico.ca [207.34.28.189]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA13272; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:18:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35E5A4E2.6D95@pei.sympatico.ca> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 15:26:42 -0300 From: Phil Ferraro Reply-To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag Alden , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Seasonal Hydro? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4257 Speireag Alden wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with micro-hydro generation like this?Any tips on how I might do a cost analysis to see if it's worth it? Contact Harris Hydro Electric in New Brunswick 408 425-7652 They make an excellent micro hydro plant. I believe they might be the only ones in N. America. Very reasonably priced. -- Phil Ferraro, Executive Director, P.E.I. ADAPT Council c/o The Farm Centre, 420 University Avenue, Room 103 Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island Canada C1A 7Z5 Phone: (902) 368-2005 Fax: (902) 368-2520 (phone first) Email: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 27 15:11:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA11451 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 15:11:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15057; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:40:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14740 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:39:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14735 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:39:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id NAA0000021155; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:50:00 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980827185246.006ddd68@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:52:46 -0500 To: Bruce Sullivan , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Seasonal Hydro? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4258 Bruce, When I was trying to figure out the size pump I needed for an up hill lift I was told that ten feet in horizontal length = one head, this by a salesman, not an engineer, and I'm sure someone in the group will correct this if it's not right. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 27 15:21:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA11595 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 15:21:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15675; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:53:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:49:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15311 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15302 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id NAA0000016145; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:59:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980827190228.006c7044@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:02:28 -0500 To: Jon Hoyt , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: quiet kitchen vent fans Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4259 Jon, for me the best way to go will be to install a remote (neat little kind-of-expensive Fantec) fan. That way you don't hear it at all, or almost not, depending on how far away-etc. However there are numbers of fans out there that are low sone (although I still don't know exactly how a sone is measured--was told that the typical kind of noisy bathroom fan is about 5.0 sone, just for comparison). Check out Grainger Industrial Supply-they have a good collection (no 800 # but they are all over the place). Also I just spent half an hour talking to Tamrack Tech 1 800 222 5932 to a knowledgeable and talkative sales person-they may have what you want too. David, the rep, sounded well-informed. Sacie Lambertson No, you should not use a bath fan where you want a kitchen exhaust, for one you would need a pretty big one. The grilles by the way you can buy separately, as well as the controls. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 27 16:59:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA13594 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:58:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA21088; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:30:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:26:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20735 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:26:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20731 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:26:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay1.mnsinc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA22581 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:37:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:36:15 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: Kitchen venting Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4260 980827 Would it make any sense to use at least a piece of flex in the line (perhaps in an accessible portion of the line, for cleaning/replacement) to complement Sacie's good suggestion for remote location of the fan motor? BTW, try http://www.grainger.com, not always the cheapest, but what an inventory and helpful people! I had excellent luck with a remote motored hood in a renov I did in the late 70's, would definitely repeat with our Lilypad house when we get rich enuff to do the kitchen. ribit. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Aug 27 20:58:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA19884 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA02441; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:30:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:27:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA02047 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:26:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA02040 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:26:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip223.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.223]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA03520; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:37:00 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980828004911.00b3e940@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:49:11 -0400 To: "David F. Lambertson" , Bruce Sullivan , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Seasonal Hydro? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4261 There are 1/2 dozen 'micro hydro' advertizers in Home Power Magazine - I believe many of the back issues are available at I too have been confused by "a head of water". A foot of water at 39F is .43 lbs/sq inch or 62 lbs/ sq ft. But there is a missing time or velocity component ??? best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 00:00:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21963 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:00:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09205; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:31:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:28:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08913 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08909 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:27:48 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.3) id 1ZNQa02306 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:37:08 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <75f334e4.35e625e4@aol.com>> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:37:08 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Stucco Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4262 A couple folks requested contact info for Joe Lstibureck's "Builder's Guide" To order call 508-589-5100. Great resource. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 00:42:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA22245 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:42:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA10478; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:14:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:10:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA10248 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:10:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA10244 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:10:42 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.3) id 1WRa016404 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:20:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1bb92f73.35e63005@aol.com>> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:20:21 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Geodesic Domes Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4263 Friends, I just met with Barry, a potential client that has become convinced that Bucky Fullers old dream is the housing solution for the new millenium. Apparently some salesman in the dome kit business and has convinced Barry that all the inherent problems with domes that Stewart Brand pointed out in his book "How Buildings Learn", have been solved. It seems to me that it would take some fundamental changes in the laws of physics to change most of those problems, but y'all know how narrow minded I am. Barry and his wife, Mary Ellen have a limited budget because some realtor has already talked them into paying about $50,000.00 too much for a lot that is barely buildable and will need a huge amount of fill due to the high water table. Because this dome sales guy has told them these fancy finished wild shaped buildings will cost less than $70/square foot, (less than my cost for a simple cape with builder grade finishes), Barry doesn't seem to beleive me when I suggest the cost of building such an untraditional building with normal tradespeople will cost significantly more than building in the ways that professionals know how to bid and build competitively. Anyway, I suggested that Barry check out this list. He may be one of the many silent readers now. I doubt if I am going to be the builder on this project, but Barry and Mary Ellen are very nice people, committed to the idea of ecological building and the kind of folks I would hate to see burned again by another fast talking salesman. Any advice anyone can offer these folks so they don't end up with a $220,000 albatross? Please address any thoughts to Barry and Mary Ellen and I will forward them. Thanks in advance, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 01:09:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA22385 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 01:09:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA11311; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:41:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:37:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11008 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:37:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bna.bellsouth.net (mail.bna.bellsouth.net [205.152.80.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11004 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:37:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spencers (host-209-214-112-150.bna.bellsouth.net [209.214.112.150]) by mail.bna.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA02353; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:47:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35E63719.5ABF@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:50:33 -0500 From: spencers Reply-To: bardsong@bellsouth.net Organization: bardsong X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FUnger@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Geodesic Domes References: <1bb92f73.35e63005@aol.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4264 FUnger@aol.com wrote: > Sometimes ya just gotta let potential clients go no matter how sweet they appear and how much you want to help 'em. It's for a reason, ya know. You may have just saved yourself a big headache. Shawn http://spaceformusic.com/bardsong Still gathering free supplies for our cobbily cob. > > I just met with Barry, a potential client that has become convinced that Bucky > Fullers old dream is the housing solution for the new millenium. Apparently > some salesman in the dome kit business and has convinced Barry that all the > inherent problems with domes that Stewart Brand pointed out in his book "How > Buildings Learn", have been solved. It seems to me that it would take some > fundamental changes in the laws of physics to change most of those problems, > but y'all know how narrow minded I am. > > Barry and his wife, Mary Ellen have a limited budget because some realtor has > already talked them into paying about $50,000.00 too much for a lot that is > barely buildable and will need a huge amount of fill due to the high water > table. > > Because this dome sales guy has told them these fancy finished wild shaped > buildings will cost less than $70/square foot, (less than my cost for a simple > cape with builder grade finishes), Barry doesn't seem to beleive me when I > suggest the cost of building such an untraditional building with normal > tradespeople will cost significantly more than building in the ways that > professionals know how to bid and build competitively. > > Anyway, I suggested that Barry check out this list. He may be one of the many > silent readers now. > > I doubt if I am going to be the builder on this project, but Barry and Mary > Ellen are very nice people, committed to the idea of ecological building and > the kind of folks I would hate to see burned again by another fast talking > salesman. > > Any advice anyone can offer these folks so they don't end up with a $220,000 > albatross? Please address any thoughts to Barry and Mary Ellen and I will > forward them. Thanks in advance, Fred > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 06:56:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA24965 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 06:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA21502; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 06:28:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 06:24:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA21290 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 06:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA21286 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 06:24:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-06.netcom.ca [207.181.90.70]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA05761; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 06:34:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199808281034.GAA05761@tor-smtp2.netcom.ca> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 05:32:13 -0400 To: Bruce Sullivan From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Seasonal Hydro? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <1307911253-1671443@irisinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4265 At 09:44 AM 27/08/98 +0000, Bruce Sullivan wrote: My biggest concern is finding a way to accurately measure head. I have a >stream that flows off a very steep slope. The intake will be a thousand >feet up the slope from the turbine. Without surveying equipment or >skills, I'm not sure how to get a reasonable measurement. > Try a GPS (they start at around $100 these days - or borrow one from a hunter) - it gives you altitude (z) as well as latitude and longitude. Best.......Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 10:46:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27488 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28782; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:18:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:14:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28512 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28504 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (chtw08-37.pei.sympatico.ca [207.34.31.133]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA21308; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:23:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35E6BF5E.602F@pei.sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:31:58 -0300 From: Phil Ferraro Reply-To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FUnger@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Geodesic Domes References: <1bb92f73.35e63005@aol.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4266 FUnger@aol.com wrote: > .....a potential client that has become convinced that Bucky > Fullers old dream is the housing solution for the new millenium.... It seems to me >that it would take some fundamental changes in the laws of physics to change most of >those problems, but y'all know how narrow minded I am. I forwarded Fred's comments to a friend who is hoping to start a dome building business. Here is his reply. RE: Green Builders Network Anti-Dome Contractor Phil: Difficult to comment on such vague, albeit experience-based, statements, but I will rise to the challange with a few vaguaries of my own. Not having read the book by Stewart Brand ("How Buildings Learn"), I have no idea what Fred means by requiring changes in "fundamental laws of physics". He no doubt has very sound reasons for not liking geodesic construction as a replacement for his own business interests (and, consequently, for him), any more than chemical companies have any interest in the "economic disaster" of implementing sustainable agriculture practices. He could have been a lot more specific, though. Is he referring to the inherent leakage problems (solved), the need for specilty window and covering materials (available), or the fact that few contractors know how to do it, therefore one needs to shop around a bit (?) I think we need to look at why such alternatives are slow, if ever, to implement. True, there are few off-the-shelf accessories (windows, wall clading, shingles, etc) available for the radial symmetry of geodesic dome construction. The question is, are the contractors not, through their own ignorance and narrow-minded resistance to change, preventing the demand side of the market from growing? It's hard to believe that window manufacturers, etc. would not gladly diversify their supply lines if the market made it obvious that there was a growth trend in a given area. As you well know, popularity has little to do with utility. Examples: 1. The internal combustion engine, virtually unchanged and still a massively inefficient polluter for five decades (except ethanol, and rotary design, which is still around, but never became a standard, even though there are plenty of success stories around the Mazda design); 2. Organic farming, more a reinvention than an innovation, but still just getting a foothold in the market after half a century of "alternative" status; 3. Recycling, which, after being embraced by small towns across Canada is threatened by cheaper alternatives and poor planning, that is shutting down smaller recyclers everywhere, even after the public has been won over. You can come up with your own list. The point is that any new design or technology will not necessarily ever get a fair chance to succeed, as long as the "old boys" keep a stranglehold on the mechanisms that drive change. Granted, all things should be judged on their own merit, and the court of public opinion will determine the future...in a perfect world where the public is adequately informed about alternatives and their availability. This is often not the case. Who will go looking for bargains at a country store basement when there's a Wall-Mart with one-stop shopping across the street? Who will try self-financing and co-operative banking, when the only thing they ever hear about is that one MUST have an account with a major chartered bank, MUST put up with outragous charges and lack of service while the banks make more money on your hard-earned sheckles than you ever will? And who will question their food and water supply when they are continually told that we have the safest supplies in the world, and that alternative producers and environmentalists are ignorant, cranky old hippies? Well, I am now in full rant, and await a bit more specific info from "Fred", at which time I would be glad to refute or accept his arguements point-by-point. I suspect there is a bit more to this than concern about a friend's naivete or pocketbook. Feel free to forward to the list. ******************************************************************** Paul S. Stewart c/o ABIOGEN ENVIRONMENTAL SERVICES Marshfield Manse, RR #3 Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, CANADA C1A 7J7 Tel: (902) 566-4078 email: abiogen@isn.net "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate" ********************************************************************* -- Phil Ferraro, Executive Director, P.E.I. ADAPT Council c/o The Farm Centre, 420 University Avenue, Room 103 Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island Canada C1A 7Z5 Phone: (902) 368-2005 Fax: (902) 368-2520 (phone first) Email: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 11:18:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28092 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:18:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01221; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:46:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00868 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:46:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp-gw.BayNetworks.COM (ns2.BayNetworks.COM [134.177.3.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00863 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:46:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.BayNetworks.COM ([141.251.211.49]) by smtp-gw.BayNetworks.COM (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA13201; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns2.corpeast.Baynetworks.com (ns2.corpeast.baynetworks.com [192.32.72.17]) by mailhost.BayNetworks.COM (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA05246; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:56:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from bl-mail1.corpeast.BayNetworks.com (bl-mail1-nf0) by ns2.corpeast.Baynetworks.com (4.1/BNET-97/04/29-S) id AA14999; Fri, 28 Aug 98 10:56:05 EDT for mheat@mha-net.org Received: from odin ([141.251.81.26]) by bl-mail1.corpeast.BayNetworks.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 219 ID# 0-51848U14000L14000S0V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:55:59 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980828105350.009e52c0@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com> X-Sender: rwarner@bl-mail1.corpeast.baynetworks.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:53:52 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Regan_Warner@BayNetworks.COM (Regan Warner) Subject: GBlist: GPS and water head Cc: mheat@mha-net.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4267 Beware using a GPS for altitude...the one area they are not very accurate= (within 10 metres is asking a lot of the unit even if the signal has been= upgraded through differential). Altitude is 'acquired' only to ascertain= whether the user is inside or outside the surface of a sphere and= coincidentally produces an altitude value. Oh yeah...if you're in the= Ottawa Valley and you need one ..give me a shout (also have a transit)...no= use having the equipment if you don't use it. Sl=E0inte=20 Regan Warner BA GIS, CD Hermitage Systems=20 "Huers of Data, Drawers of Maps" loc:45=B025'15"N 75=B042'30"W ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 11:58:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28846 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:58:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03516; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:30:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:26:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03094 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:26:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.sprynet.com (m3.sprynet.com [165.121.2.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03090 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:26:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 209.154.101.103 (sf-dnpqo-103.compuserve.net [209.154.101.103]) by m3.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA29779; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35E6C97F.2596@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:15:14 -0700 From: Art Ludwig Reply-To: odesign@sprynet.com Organization: Oasis Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, FUnger@aol.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Geodesic Domes References: <1bb92f73.35e63005@aol.com>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4268 Call Shelter Publications, publishers of domebooks 1 & 2, for a copy of "Refried Domes", in which they nobly recant in gory detail their own prior dome championship-415 868-0280. An exemplary case of transcending personal embarrassment to set the record straight. Art ************* Art Ludwig Oasis Design Ecological Design publishing & consulting E mail: Web site: 5 San Marcos Trout Club, Santa Barbara, CA 93105-9726, Fax: 805 967-3229 Phone: 967-9956 Please do not distribute our e mail address to the general public. ************* ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 12:01:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA28891 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:01:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03729; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:33:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:29:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03336 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.sprynet.com (m3.sprynet.com [165.121.2.55]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03329 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:29:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 209.154.101.103 (sf-dnpqo-103.compuserve.net [209.154.101.103]) by m3.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA01708 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35E6D21E.D75@sprynet.com> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:52:05 -0700 From: Art Ludwig Reply-To: odesign@sprynet.com Organization: Oasis Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Seasonal Hydro? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4269 > At 09:44 AM 27/08/98 +0000, Bruce Sullivan wrote: > > My biggest concern is finding a way to accurately measure head. I have a > >stream that flows off a very steep slope. The intake will be a thousand > >feet up the slope from the turbine. Without surveying equipment or > >skills, I'm not sure how to get a reasonable measurement. For that much head, I'd just use a USGS topo map. I made a 400% enlargement in one step of our part of our canyon (a few square inches to 8.5 x11) on a canon color copier for a dollar. This makes it even easier to get all the accuracy you'd need, probably ±50 ft or better. Just figure out where you are, and where the spring is, and count lines. For a low head application in Mexico I took inspiration from the locals and used a water-filled 1 m length of 1/4 clear plastic tubing; the world's cheapest transit. Hold one end a few inches from your eye, and sight to the other water level at arm's length. Using this technique I was able to transfer the height of the spill point of the diversion across the valley to a large tree right above the generator. From there, I climbed the tree and dropped down a tape measure to the ground, transferred that level to the roof of the house, and dropped the tape again. Primative, but I could clearly see a 1' change in elevation about a 1000 feet away. We used the same device and a similar 30' tube which we read directly to shoot hundreds of levels to work out seven different greywater systems and a blackwater/constructed wetland cascade on the same site. The unaided eye is incredibly inaccurate for this work, consistently percieving level as some fraction of the slope at hand. A rough estimate of hydro potential is available free in the Real Goods sourcebook, and the Jade mountian web site. I too am in the midst of evaluating a strongly seasonal hydro possibility. It is bone dry for eight months, then the flow ranges from 10 to 500+ lpm during the cloudy (i.e., low solar output) days of the monsoon. Head is 100'. It sounds as though the general solution is to put multiple nozzles on the penstock, then open and close them with one eye on the pressure guage, a hand on a rheostat which adjusts the generator field strength, and the final eye on the ampmeter which measures the generator output. I haven't figured out how to optimize use of this particular resource, but if/when I do, I'll post it. I have a friend in Northern California who designed and maintains two small private commercial hydro systems which generate power from creeks which are bone dry for six months. One has 500 psi at the penstock from a 24" pipe, and generates several hundred thousand dollars worth of electricity during the rainy season. There are several of these things around, and it makes Trinity County a net exporter of electricity during the winter, so in some situations at least it can pay. Art ************* Art Ludwig Oasis Design Ecological Design publishing & consulting E mail: Web site: 5 San Marcos Trout Club, Santa Barbara, CA 93105-9726, Fax: 805 967-3229 Phone: 967-9956 Please do not distribute our e mail address to the general public. ************* ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 12:12:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29459 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:12:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04426; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:44:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:41:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04071 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:41:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from baldr.metro.net (smtp1.metro.net [205.217.52.128]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04067 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:41:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ig120.5.dial.innovation.com (ig120.5.dial.innovation.com [209.249.5.120]) by baldr.metro.net (NTMail 3.02.13) with ESMTP id va333185 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:57:18 -0700 Message-ID: <35E6D126.2ECE@metro.net> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:47:50 -0700 From: Allen Sherman Reply-To: asherman@metro.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Termite fumigation--Vikane Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4270 Has anyone on this list heard reports of problems with chemical residues from buildings previously fumigated with "Vikane"(sulfuryl fluoride) for termite eradication? A friend of mine who is "mildly chemically sensitive" is considering having his house fumigated with Vikane for an extensive dry-wood termite problem. He has investigated several alternatives, including freezing (liq. nitrogen), heat, electrogun, microwave, etc., but these apparently are not options in this case because of the nature of the infestation and building construction. Most medical, public health, and chemical toxicity literature sources claim that although Vikane is a very toxic gas in high concentrations, it is "very volatile and outgasses quickly to non-detectable levels" after fumigation is completed and the building is aired out. It is reportedly more acceptable than alternative fumigants (eg methyl bromide) or more persistent organics such as Dursban. It_is_presently being widely used (for residences, apartments, motels, public facilities such as schools, museums, libraries, etc.) with apparently good results and few reported medical complaints...but how about problems for those who have chemical sensitivities?? Any comments would be appreciated!! Allen Sherman, PE EnviroDynamics P.O.Box 598 Bodega Bay, CA 94923 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 12:45:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00005 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:45:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06593; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:17:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:13:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05680 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:12:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05664 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:12:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.137.73.121] (henyusr0-a57.herd.tds.net [208.137.73.121]) by mail.tds.net (8.8.5/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09276; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:23:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:23:12 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: C Neurath Subject: GBlist: Seasonal Hydro? power output and economics Cc: Speireag Alden Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA05671 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4271 Speireag, I have designed and installed (and spent lots of time working out the bugs) in a micro-hydro system used by myself and another household in Northern New York. Basic estimates for how much power to expect are fairly simple. Economic analysis is a little trickier and requires more information. Power output: Watts produced is generally a linear function of both head (pressure) and flow rate. If you double the head you get double the power, if you double the water flow you double the power. This assumes you have an appropriately sized generator and you have a big enough diameter pipeline so that pipe friction doesn't limit your effective pressure down at the generator too much. For a 50 foot head and a flow of 15 gallons per minute you could probably generate about 40 watts. For a 24 hour day that is 24 hr x 40 W = 960 Watt-hrs per day or 0.96 KWh per day. With more details of your site and circumstances I could get you a more accurate number, but this is close enough draw some useful economic conclusions. For comparison purposes, I believe the average house in New York State uses roughly 10 kWh of electricity per day, which costs roughly $1 when purchased from a utility. An off the top of my head estimate for cost for your micro-hydro is about $2000. Per kWh, it will end up costing much more than utility power. Also, these cost estimates are based on an off-grid system which means you will have to own and maintain batteries. Nevertheless, if for environmental, political, or other reasons you wish to generate your own electricity then I'll give you a few more economic calculations that might be useful. A $2000 solar photovoltaic system in your climate might get you 200W of PV panels which could supply an average of about 0.4 kWh per day during the winter and 0.8 kWh per day during the summer. So, when comparing the economics of your hydro system to a PV system, they may turn out to be fairly close. I'm assumimg that during the summer your hydro stream will only supply half the winter flow rate of 15 gallons per minute and half the power. The PV system from my experience is simpler to install and maintain. A hybrid system may give you the best of both worlds. Hydro would supply most of your winter power needs, and solar most of your summer needs. Many electricity efficient homes need more electricity in the winter so PV alone isn't a good match. Lighting is usually a high proportion of efficient homes' electricity needs, and long winter nights and cloudy days mean your lights will be on a lot in winter. Many off grid home powered houses use propane for refrigerators so you wouldn't save any electricity by putting such a refrigerator in an unheated space, you'll just save propane. And if you did use one of the Sun Frost or other highest efficiency electric refrigerators, you would still have to have it in an unheated space to see any savings in electricity use during the winter. A hybrid system also gives you increased overall system reliablity. If one is out for a while the other can handle essential needs. So, maybe this is enough information to tell you whether it is even potentially within your budget to look into micro-hydro and/or PV. The first consideration is whether you can keep your household electricity usage to a much lower level than the average. I produce and use an average of about 1 kWh per day (1/10th the typical New York household) by carefully choosing the most efficient lighting and other appliances, and avoiding electricity use when I can find substitues such as wood heat, and propane for water heating and refrigeration. I live off-grid and am solely powered by sun and water. I have a gasoline generator for backup but haven't needed to run it more than a couple hours a year. I've never had a single power outage, even lasting one minute, in the ten years since I started with one battery and one solar panel. Compare that to my neighbors who were out for two weeks during January's ice storm and generally have hours long outages several times a year. I have put a lot of time into planning and installation of the hydro system. But the PV system has taken very little time or effort. The economics worked out fine for me because I live in a location where the power company would have had to extend it's lines a half mile, at a cost to me of more than $20,000. I'd be happy to discuss these issues in more detail if you want. I've spent a lot of time researching and working on them. Chris Neurath P.S. When you say: "Just over a very small ridge, there's a fall of about fifty feet. I'm contemplating, in a year or so, trying to divert the exit flow down the fifty foot fall, either by cutting through that ridge or by going around the end of it. The resulting flow will still go into the same creek which it already goes into. It's likely to be a bit expensive either way." It leads me to believe you may have a common misconception about hydro power. And that is that the water has to fall vertically to work; like onto one of those picturesque big wooden water wheels that used to power much of the our region. The modern (and cheaper) method is to contain the water in a pipe and run the pipe over the easiest most direct route to the low spot, where the pressure has now increased so that it comes gushing out of a nozzle that directs the jet of high speed water onto the cups of a small wheel that then spins an electric generator. The pipe (called the penstock) could go around your ridge (presumably following near the course of the present stream bed) instead of needing to blast a notch through the ridge. P.P.S. When you say: "I have a pond which flows seasonally (and year-round with help)" make sure you aren't making another common mistake of enthusiastic people. If it only flows at 15 gpm for one month during the spring run-off, and the rest of the year it averages 1.5 gpm (our stream has at least that wide a ratio of flow between spring and summer) then you will only get about 4 watts production during 11 months of the year! Now you're talking nano-hydro, and there is a guy who makes units that are getting into this minimalist range, but 4 W x 24 hr = 48 watt hours would only be enough electricity to power a single small flourescent light bulb for about 2 hours a night ... and nothing more. Are you into that level of aescesticism? Perhaps you've got more flow than that but not enough to justify the more expensive micro-hydro machines. The company for nano-hydro is: Lil Otto Hydroworks in California, Bob-O Schultze 916-475-3401. all in response to: --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 05:03:34 -0400 From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Seasonal Hydro? Hallo, all. It seems to be my week for questions. That's because I'm waiting for a contractor on the house project, and I've done just about everything I can do before he arrives. :/ I have a pond which flows seasonally (and year-round with help). When it's flowing, it can get as high as ten or fifteen gallons per minutes. Just over a very small ridge, there's a fall of about fifty feet. I'm contemplating, in a year or so, trying to divert the exit flow down the fifty foot fall, either by cutting through that ridge or by going around the end of it. The resulting flow will still go into the same creek which it already goes into. It's likely to be a bit expensive either way. Does anyone have any experience with micro-hydro generation like this? Any tips on how I might do a cost analysis to see if it's worth it? Eventually I'd like to be completely on solar, and I'm thinking that the hydro might seasonally complement the solar, so the hydro doesn't have to stand alone. - -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrÏobhaidh thugam 'sa Gýidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 12:46:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00025 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:46:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06631; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:17:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:13:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05708 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05672 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:12:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.137.73.121] (henyusr0-a57.herd.tds.net [208.137.73.121]) by mail.tds.net (8.8.5/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09381; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:23:21 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:23:21 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: C Neurath Subject: GBlist: Seasonal Hydro? makers of micro-hydro equipment Cc: Phil Ferraro Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4272 According to the ads in Home Power Magazine, Harris Hydro Electric is based in California and not New Brunswick. You may have confused Harris with the only other North American micro-hydro maker that I am aware of, which is based in New Brunswick: Energy Systems and Design, 506-433-3151. I am using two of Energy Systems and Designs' generators. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 15:26:42 -0300 From: Phil Ferraro Subject: Re: GBlist: Seasonal Hydro? Speireag Alden wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with micro-hydro generation like >this?Any tips on how I might do a cost analysis to see if it's worth it? Contact Harris Hydro Electric in New Brunswick 408 425-7652 They make an excellent micro hydro plant. I believe they might be the only ones in N. America. Very reasonably priced. - -- Phil Ferraro, Executive Director, P.E.I. ADAPT Council c/o The Farm Centre, 420 University Avenue, Room 103 Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island Canada C1A 7Z5 Phone: (902) 368-2005 Fax: (902) 368-2520 (phone first) Email: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 12:46:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00030 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:46:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06633; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:17:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:13:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05679 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:12:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05668 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:12:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.137.73.121] (henyusr0-a57.herd.tds.net [208.137.73.121]) by mail.tds.net (8.8.5/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09322; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:23:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:23:16 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: C Neurath Subject: GBlist: Seasonal Hydro? methods for determining head Cc: Bruce Sullivan Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4273 Bruce, There are a number of very simple methods for determining head. They all use equipment that will cost less than $20 or that you may have lying around already. You can buy (or rent) a simple sight level for less than $20. You determine the height above the floor of your eyeball (say that is 5 feet) while you are standing up, and then start off at the lowest point, sight on a helper's feet who moves up hill until his feet are exactly level with your eye sighting through the device. Then you know he is standing on a point exactly 5 feet higher than your start point. You walk up to the helpers point and repeat the process up the hillside. If the drop is more dramatic, you can use a hose filled with water as a water level, similar to its use when laying out the foundation of a house. Finally, if you already have a pipeline in place, or have a long enough length of any diameter hose to reach from the top to the bottom, you can attach a simple water pressure gauge to the bottom and when the hose is filled with water you measure the static pressure (the water shouldn't be flowing through the pipe but all the air bubbles should be flushed out before taking the measurement). The conversion factor from pounds per square inch to feet of head is something like 2.3. That is, 10 psi means you have 23 feet of head. For your situation, the sight level is the way to go. I bought one from Backwoods Solar who also are knowledgeable about home power systems and have a good catalog -- tel. 208-263-4290. Also, since you say you have 1000 feet of run, you may find that there it is not a uniform rate of drop over that distance. The economics of pipe may suggest that you find the steepest section and only try to tap the hydro potential from that section of the stream. For example if you had 100 feet of head in the first 200 feet of run, and then only 50 more feet of drop in the next 800 feet, it's possible you could get a useful amount of power for a reasonable cost of pipeline only out of the first 200 feet of run of the stream. Chris Neurath -------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:44:46 -0000 From: Bruce Sullivan Subject: Re: GBlist: Seasonal Hydro? Speireag I also have potential site for microhydro, but that project is way down the list. So, I have done a very superficial web search and found that Real Goods offers a service for calculating the generating potential of a proposed site. I think they charge $20 for the analysis. Of course, they also sell the equipment. I have a vague recollection of the formula for calculating generating capacity is that it's fairly simple. I'm sure it's printed in books, although I don't know which ones. My biggest concern is finding a way to accurately measure head. I have a stream that flows off a very steep slope. The intake will be a thousand feet up the slope from the turbine. Without surveying equipment or skills, I'm not sure how to get a reasonable measurement. Bruce S >Does anyone have any experience with micro-hydro generation like this? >Any tips on how I might do a cost analysis to see if it's worth it? >Eventually I'd like to be completely on solar, and I'm thinking that the >hydro might seasonally complement the solar, so the hydro doesn't have to >stand alone. - ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com - -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 12:48:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00070 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:48:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07024; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:20:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:16:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06308 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:16:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from coyote.accessnv.com (jap2be@coyote.accessnv.com [207.168.90.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06274 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:16:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (jap2be@localhost) by coyote.accessnv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA01500; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:55:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Angel Cohen To: Allen Sherman cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Termite fumigation--Vikane In-Reply-To: <35E6D126.2ECE@metro.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4274 Dear Allen: Anyone chemcially sensitive will reactive to these SO CALLED low levels. This is not a alternative for this person. Angel On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Allen Sherman wrote: > Has anyone on this list heard reports of problems with chemical residues > from buildings previously fumigated with "Vikane"(sulfuryl fluoride) for > termite eradication? > > A friend of mine who is "mildly chemically sensitive" is considering > having his house fumigated with Vikane for an extensive dry-wood > termite problem. He has investigated several alternatives, including > freezing (liq. nitrogen), heat, electrogun, microwave, etc., but these > apparently are not options in this case because of the nature of the > infestation and building construction. > > Most medical, public health, and chemical toxicity literature sources > claim that although Vikane is a very toxic gas in high concentrations, > it is "very volatile and outgasses quickly to non-detectable levels" > after fumigation is completed and the building is aired out. It is > reportedly more acceptable than alternative fumigants (eg methyl > bromide) or more persistent organics such as Dursban. It_is_presently > being widely used (for residences, apartments, motels, public facilities > such as schools, museums, libraries, etc.) with apparently good results > and few reported medical complaints...but how about problems for those > who have chemical sensitivities?? > > Any comments would be appreciated!! > > Allen Sherman, PE > EnviroDynamics > P.O.Box 598 > Bodega Bay, CA 94923 > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 14:46:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02317 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:46:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12639; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:16:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:12:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12287 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:12:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12280 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:12:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.3) id 1YVGa20442 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:21:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:21:53 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Seasonal Hydro? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4275 >I have a vague recollection of the formula for >calculating generating capacity is that it's fairly simple. I'm sure it's >printed in books, although I don't know which ones. The book I have usually referred to for the over view of energy subjects and quick calculations is "Other Homes and Garbage" by Leckie, Masters, Whitehose, and Lily (1975) I found a used copy in a book store after lending mine out and never seeing it again, an old friend found. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave Assoc, Contractors Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 14:50:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02397 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13083; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:21:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:18:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12721 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:18:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from airmail.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.20.220]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12711 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:18:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from arb.ca.gov ([146.114.11.17]) by airmail.arb.ca.gov (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAAC610 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:23:49 -0700 Message-ID: <35E6F725.390FC0E0@arb.ca.gov> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:29:57 -0700 From: "Thomas J. Phillips" Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: quiet kitchen exhaust fans Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4276 JON: most stock range hoods are still very noisy (5-6 sones, sounds like 2 very fast "squirrels in a cage"). On our 1992 remodel, I installed a Kanalflakt in-line fan (donut shape, sounds like a distant jet engine) in the attic with rubber pad and bracing, and attached it to a Nutone range hood shell (sans motor, on sale). The Kanalflakt is similar to the Fantech line, and their tech rep in Florida was very helpful. The fan seemed expensive (it's very efficient and reliable/durable), but the total package cost was still comparable to a top of the line, off the shelf model, yet much quieter (it seems slightly louder than my 1 sone bath exhausts, and my noise-sensitive wife uses it all the time). The only problem was that the contractor installed the duct connector (rectangle-round adaptor) so that it blocked the backdraft flap from opening all the way. I noticed this later and trimmed off some of the flap's corners where it was hitting the duct. Fantech has since come out with the same type of fan/hood set-up as a package (they probably have a web site and 800 #). Another alternative is to mount the fan on an exterior wall or roof; the major hood makers also list this type of fan in their catalogues but the fans may not be that efficient or reliable In 1994, I summed up recommendations for range hoods in CARB's Indoor Air Quality Guideline #2, Combustion Pollutants in Your Home, and the Supplement (only the guideline, not the Supplement, is online yet; call 916.322.8282 for a copy). The Guideline is at: http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm; it recommends checking for backdrafting from mechanical ventilation systems. A few years ago, Dave Brooks at Oregon Energy Extension Service ( brookd@ucs.orst.edu ) published an article on his hood project in Home Energy (http://www.homeenergy.org/eehem/hem_index.html). He may have used a remote/attic fan too. One other key factor in hood performance is the hood depth, area, and placement. The University of Minnesota Cooperative Extension has a nice brochure on Tom Kuehn's project on hood capture of smoke plumes.* Canadian researchers have also found that movable side shields, e.g. Plexiglas) greatly improved smoke capture, especially when sidedrafts were created by people moving, open windows, etc.; the shields can also be set into overhead cabinet slots with retaining clips. My home experiments with (impromptu) newspaper or foil shields have worked very well when roasting meat for hours. I concur with other listers than bath fans won't handle the grease and heat. Thanks for getting me started on this topic, and I just noticed U. Minn/Wanda Olson's new CO brochure (http://www.extension.umn.edu/Documents/D/K/DK6606.html in Hmong & English!) and their Kitchen Planning brochure/site (http://www.extension.umn.edu/Documents/D/K/DK1392.html, Indoor Air Quality section and Pt. 2, Ventilation section). Best wishes, Tom Phillips * I did a search and didn't find their kitchen range exhaust brochure on the web site, but did find their videos for sale and rent (see below). You should probably just call them ((612) 625-8173, FAX: (612) 625-6281, Internet: ORDERS@MES.UMN.EDU). http://www.mes.umn.edu/DC/div3.html << Household Appliances...Audio Visual for Sale >> VH-5770-GO Building for Performance, Ventilation Series $55.00 VH-3594-GO Kitchen Range Exhaust Systems $35.00 VH-3593-GO Performance of Kitchen Range Exhaust Systems $35.00 << Household Appliances...Audio Visual for Rent >> SS-4262-GO Freezing for Your 24-Hour Store $10.00 VH-3594R-GO Kitchen Range Exhaust Systems $10.00 VH-3593R-GO Performance of Kitchen Range Exhaust Systems $10.00 VH-2266-GO Stir Fry Cooking: 4-H Youth Projects CC: Jon Hoyt , brookd@ucs.orst.edu, wolson@extension.umn.edu, angel001@tc.umn.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 15:33:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA03133 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:33:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15052; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:59:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14661 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:59:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14657 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:59:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id OAA0000001247; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:09:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980828191237.006dd480@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:12:37 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: quiet kitchen fans Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4277 In the on-going discussion about quiet kitchen fans there's been a suggestion that one be placed in the attic. I think you need instead, a 'remote' fan, one that is placed high up in a duct but that vents out of the roof. The grease trap/filter can be placed right down at the bottom just above the stove. These work well, even without a hood if the area is otherwise general enclosed. I put one in a house we built 23 years ago and it has operated well all this time. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 16:00:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA03627 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16579; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:32:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:28:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16010 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:27:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16006 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust203.tnt8.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.23.203]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA03574 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:38:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35E7066C.4213@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:35:08 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Geodesic Domes References: <1bb92f73.35e63005@aol.com>> <35E703F8.30F6@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4278 > FUnger@aol.com wrote: > > Barry doesn't seem to beleive me when I > > suggest the cost of building such an untraditional building with normal > > tradespeople will cost significantly more than building in the ways that > > professionals know how to bid and build competitively. > > I would hate to see burned again by another fast talking > > salesman. > > > > Any advice anyone can offer these folks so they don't end up with a $220,000 > > albatross? > > Barry & Mary Ellen: > > I am a builder out in California, but I encounter similar predicaments > regularly: people want to build unconventionally, and expect it to be > cheaper. Just the opposite. Crappy, unimaginative, toxic, rectilinear > building prodominates our system simply because it is the cheapest way > of building. > > There is only one way an alternative system is cheaper, and that is if > you assemble it yourself. You the homeowner are not locked in to hourly > production costs and crew efficiency factors. It would probably take you > about the same time to do it one way or another, and then the dome kit > becomes quite attractive. But if you are hiring it out, it will cost you > dearly. Professional builders have developed all sorts of systems to > deal with the multitudes of little problems that inevitably arise in > their conventional work. When in unconventional systems, solutions have > to be thought out and re-invented continuously, and that takes a huge > toll on efficiency and budget. > > This dilemma of efficiency and labor costs is a powerful force keeping > more ecological alternatives at bay. They become relegated to the > fringes - for either the very wealthy or the very poor. We builders > trying to promote ecological architecture are scratching around the > edges, trying to find ways to bring thiese innovations into the > mainstream, and it ain't easy. > > Seth Melchert > Master Builders > Oakland, CA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 17:08:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA00909 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 17:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20115; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:39:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA19674 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.inreach.com (mail.inreach.com [209.142.0.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19668 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:39:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vc-1 (209-142-12-53.stk.inreach.net [209.142.12.53] (may be forged)) by mail.inreach.com (8.8.8/8.8.6/(InReach)) with ESMTP id NAA09884 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199808282042.NAA09884@mail.inreach.com> From: "Kim Slininger" To: "greentalk" Subject: GBlist: deconstruction data Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:54:24 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4279 it's been great to check in from time to time and see where the thread is heading. with summer winding down i guess it's time i get back in the mix. our demolition/deconstruction project at the Yosemite lodge (Yosemite National Park, CA) has just finished the first phase. we have developed an MS excel spreadsheet for the labor hours, board footage salvaged, cubic yards sent to co-gen and an hourly cost or average cost per square foot for salvaging different types of materials. So far the numbers look very encouraging as far as effectiveness of tax dollars. there are a few catagories that only the government agencies can use such as vacation and sick leave but the basics are there for estimating the same type of deconstruction. unfortunately the cost of Landfill verses Co-Generation of materials doesn't work to our favor, co-gen is $2.00/CY more expensive. this may not always be the case if the tipping fees are high at the local landfill and the grinder and Co-Gen facility is closer than 140 miles. so far we have stacked out about 40,000 bF of 2x6 T&G cedar, 4,800 lin. ft. of 3x12x16' DF beams along with approximately 1,000bF of various other timbers. we have had an inspector come to the site to grade and stamp about 5,000 bF so we know the lumber salvaged has current building quality integrity. so far, the best lumber has come from dorms built in the 1960's. some of the DF timbers had original stamps and after being "stored" for 30+ years the beams are stamped "select structural". makes the case of diminishing lumber quality pretty clear. if anyone is interested in the figures and costs per unit for salvage work i'd be happy to fire it out. just drop me a message. i'll have the full information package ready for presentation in december for the NPS facility managers workshop. keep it green, Kim ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 19:19:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02670 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:19:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA25043; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 18:56:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 18:52:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24828 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 18:52:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24824 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 18:52:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay1.mnsinc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA14340 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:02:35 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:01:41 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: exhaust fans/kit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4280 980828 The great Thermador hood/fan from my old house was motored on the outside wall and used major (6 or 8 in) duct to suck from. Variable speed (glad I did that), reasonably quiet, workd great. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 19:31:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA02845 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:31:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25828; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:07:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:04:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA25448 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:03:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from epud.org (www.epud.org [208.8.142.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25444 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dstill ([162.162.4.207]) by epud.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA18573 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:26:12 -0700 Message-Id: <199808282326.QAA18573@epud.org> From: "Dean Still" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: Geo Dome and David Melchert Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:18:43 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4281 Yeah, David that is why houses keep on looking the same, I agree. The normal way is most usually the cheapest way, given that you pay to get it done. Also, in my opinion, people who promote new fads in building, like domes, cob, adobe, straw, etc. push the fad along, make a buck, and do a disservice to rationality and the naive. Won't it be a great day when the eco-public has matured to the point that exaggerated claims will be appreciated in light of the known and possible...Pushing a hopeful seeming fad along, (most recent example: straw in wet climates?) helps to deepen the disapointment when the Second Look comes along. There are great ways to make Eco-Houses but miracles happen mostly when you dream. Dean Still ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Aug 28 21:14:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA03819 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 21:14:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA29974; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 20:51:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 28 Aug 1998 20:47:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA29720 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 20:47:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29716 for ; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 20:47:27 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.3) id RJOAa16406; Fri, 28 Aug 1998 20:54:18 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <2aea0fd1.35e7513a@aol.com>> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 20:54:18 EDT To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Geodesic Domes Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4282 Paul S. Stewart , Rather than get into specific problems with Dome construction, I would encourage you to check out Stewart Brand's book "How Buildings Learn". It is perhaps the single best book ever written on architecture and buildings and features the work and thoughts of some of the best and most creative participants on this green builders list, along with inspiring work of centuries past. As for his credentials as an "alternative minded individual", Stewart's previous experiences included being the founder and publisher of the Whole Earth Catalogs, (the Sears Roebuck catalog for us "old hippies"), one of the key organizers of The Well, (the first significant use of the internet by "alternative minded people") and personal involvement with the crowd including the Greatful Dead and all those old the San Franscisco beat generation poet types. Probably more than any other person except Bucky Fuller, Stewart was responsible for the promotion and promulgation of geodesic domes, before his serious study of architecture and buildings led him to humbly conclude that they were in his words "a complete, utter and total failure" (and then explains why). I am not anti-dome. Having been burned on the bleeding edge of interesting, exciting ecolgical new technology, I simply know how to estimate the costs of doing unusual work when you are working with people that expect a pay check at the end of the week. I suggested to Barry that I was willing to do the work, as long as he can double his budget to pay for it. As for the do it yourself solution, that's another complicated discussion that is probably inappropriate in a case like this where the clients acknowledge having virtually no skills or experience in a any of the building trades. Thanks for your thoughts, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Aug 29 10:26:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01834 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 10:26:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15880; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 10:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 29 Aug 1998 09:59:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15619 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 09:58:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.gis.net (home.gis.net [208.218.130.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15614 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 09:58:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.218.128.30] (pm1-ppp30.gis.net [208.218.128.30]) by home.gis.net (8.8.8/8.8.8+djf) with SMTP id KAA25437 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 10:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 10:11:20 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: markalla@gis.net (Mark and Alla Webster) Subject: GBlist: hot water Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4283 Our hot water heater appears to be gasping for its last breath. It's a natural gas fired model, your typical dime-a-dozen heater. We've heard that hot water heaters which could run off our oil-burning furnace could be an energy-efficient replacement, but most of the suggestions have come from people who install such units, so we wonder about their objectivity. Can anybody offer their own un-biased opinions on this matter? Do furnace-heated units have tanks like our present heater? Wouldn't it be inefficient to run the furnace all summer when it's not needed for heating? Does it depend on the efficiency of our furnace (it's a fairly late model Weil-McLain with a Beckett burner last rated at 80.5% efficiency). Will it last longer than the ten year life-expectancy of a gas-fired water heater? We're looking for an energy efficient solution, even if the installation cost is somewhat higher, figuring we'll save $ over the life of the unit. Thank you for any comments or suggestions. Mark Webster Newton, MA markalla@gis.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Aug 29 11:40:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA00636 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 11:40:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16916; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 10:39:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 29 Aug 1998 10:36:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16685 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 10:35:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16681 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 10:35:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.136]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4067800 ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 08:17:29 -0800 Message-ID: <35E81398.E5A4A696@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 07:43:36 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark and Alla Webster CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: hot water References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4284 If you are also looking at ventilation and heat recovery you might want to look at a heat pump water heater designed to extract heat from exhaust air. Dec Thermastor and Crispaire E-tech are units made in NA. John Mark and Alla Webster wrote: > Our hot water heater appears to be gasping for its last breath. It's a > natural gas fired model, your typical dime-a-dozen heater. We've heard that > hot water heaters which could run off our oil-burning furnace could be an > energy-efficient replacement, but most of the suggestions have come from > people who install such units, so we wonder about their objectivity. > > Can anybody offer their own un-biased opinions on this matter? Do > furnace-heated units have tanks like our present heater? Wouldn't it be > inefficient to run the furnace all summer when it's not needed for heating? > Does it depend on the efficiency of our furnace (it's a fairly late model > Weil-McLain with a Beckett burner last rated at 80.5% efficiency). Will it > last longer than the ten year life-expectancy of a gas-fired water heater? > > We're looking for an energy efficient solution, even if the installation > cost is somewhat higher, figuring we'll save $ over the life of the unit. > > Thank you for any comments or suggestions. > > Mark Webster > Newton, MA > markalla@gis.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Aug 29 13:22:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00558 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:22:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19315; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:14:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:09:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19006 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:09:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dub-img-3.compuserve.com (dub-img-3.compuserve.com [149.174.206.133]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19002 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:09:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by dub-img-3.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.12) id MAA03831; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:19:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:18:50 -0400 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: GBlist: hot water To: Mark and Alla Webster Cc: Gregory Thomas <72477.2131@compuserve.com>, "[unknown]" Message-ID: <199808291219_MC2-57C2-969D@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA19003 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4285 Message text written by Mark and Alla Webster >Our hot water heater appears to be gasping for its last breath. It's a natural gas fired model, your typical dime-a-dozen heater. We've heard that hot water heaters which could run off our oil-burning furnace could be an energy-efficient replacement, but most of the suggestions have come from people who install such units, so we wonder about their objectivity. Can anybody offer their own un-biased opinions on this matter? Do furnace-heated units have tanks like our present heater? Wouldn't it be inefficient to run the furnace all summer when it's not needed for heating? Does it depend on the efficiency of our furnace (it's a fairly late model Weil-McLain with a Beckett burner last rated at 80.5% efficiency). Will it last longer than the ten year life-expectancy of a gas-fired water heater? We're looking for an energy efficient solution, even if the installation cost is somewhat higher, figuring we'll save $ over the life of the unit.< You can run a separate tank as a new zone off the water heater and it will be very efficient (75%-80%) in the winter when you are running the burner fairly frequently. It will be less efficient in the summer when you will need to heat up the boiler to heat the water heater. All in all you probably will end up with 65% to 70% efficient hot water. As a side benefit you will find it difficult to run out of water. This is nice but it can increase your bills when you use more than you used to. (Got any teenagers?) I would look at a high efficiency gas hot water heater. (90% instead of 60% for standard.) I am not up on the models these days, but I suspect that there may not be too much installed price difference between the indirectly heated water storage tank and a high efficiency gas heater. Then you need to look at fuel prices. Gas has 100,000 Btus per therm. Oil has 138,000 Btus per gallon. $.7 per therm gas at 90% efficiency costs $7.78 per million btus of load. $.8 per gallon oil at 70% efficiency costs $8.28 per million btus of load. Figure about 4 million btus per person. More if you have lots of babies or teenagers or some other high use condition. Less if you have low flow everything (Which is the place to start if you want to save.) Good Luck Greg Gregory Thomas 121 Rachel Carson Way Ithaca, NY 14850 g_thomas@compuserve.com 607-277-6240 607-277-6224 fax ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Aug 29 22:22:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA05430 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 22:22:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06232; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:55:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA06007 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:55:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06003 for ; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:55:16 -0400 (EDT) From: bmeltz@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id VAA00275 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:05:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:05:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from tnt-ma1-16.ix.netcom.com(206.214.112.80) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma000257; Sat Aug 29 21:05:01 1998 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-Id: <19988292262676334@ix.netcom.com> Subject: GBlist: Introducing Ourselves X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.27, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4286 Our names are Mary-Ellen and Barry and we are the couple Fred spoke of in a posting a couple of days ago who are considering (as one of the alternatives) building a geodesic dome as our new home. Since we have not participated on the list, do not know etiquette. We are also not builders and therefore do not wish to clog up the list with posts not interesting to most participants or not written by welcome participants. We like to communicate with folks directly. Please, therefore, address any questions, comments or suggestions directly to us at bmeltz@ix.netcom.com. We will leave it up to you if you wish to cross post it to the list and we will follow your lead in responding. We do wish to learn as we start on the journey towards building our new home. It will be the most ecologically friendly one we can afford. We would be interested in anything you have to say about contemorary technology with reguards to dome construction. It is quite true that the domes of the 70's and to some extent 80's had serious design and construction flaws. Many were built by people who had no building skill or experience while under the influence of one thing or another. To reject todays domes based upon those would be innapropriate. It would be akin to saying foam insulation should not be used today because of the problems with it in the past or that wood stoves are polluting, inneffficient monsters based on the stoves of the 80's. We look foward to hearing from you. Thanks, Mary-Ellen and Barry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 30 07:01:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA08414 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 07:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA17679; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 06:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Aug 1998 06:33:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA17484 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 06:33:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA17480 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 06:33:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-33.netcom.ca [207.181.90.97]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA16208; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 06:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 05:40:38 -0400 To: From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Geo Dome and David Melchert Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <000101bdd3a7$b068cfa0$895de2d0@dell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4287 At 04:49 PM 29/08/98 -0700, Hal Levin wrote: (snip) >What you said about paying for it is a major factor. If you build it yourself >out of "free" local resources - mud, straw, clay, stone, wood, etc. - with your >own labor, it can be cheaper. And building it yourself without paid labor and >using recycled materials can be cheaper. But paying for contract work and new >materials means not much savings potential from the shell or envelope. > The other interesting thing is the large variety of different economic realities that North Americans live in, real and imagined. Years ago we brought electricity up our road - the hydro company paid to put up the poles and run the lines, but the neighbours had to brush out the right-of-way, about 3 miles. We decided to hire it out and split the cost. We got a bid for $3000.00. One neighbour said: "That's way more than its worth. Why, I could do it myself for a lot less - only I don't have the time". Hmmm..... Best..........Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 30 09:02:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09111 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 09:02:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA19622; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:39:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:35:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA19432 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA19428 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:35:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.80] (ka2-80.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.80]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA00972; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:45:51 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1307911253-1671443@irisinc.com> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 04:03:11 -0400 To: Bruce Sullivan , Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Seasonal Hydro? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id IAA19429 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4288 Sgrìobh Bruce Sullivan: >My biggest concern is finding a way to accurately measure head. I have a >stream that flows off a very steep slope. The intake will be a thousand >feet up the slope from the turbine. Without surveying equipment or >skills, I'm not sure how to get a reasonable measurement. Ah, an easy one. Make yourself a water level with clear plastic tubing such as you find in any plumbing supply. Get at least seventy-five feet of it for your job. (Some will be taken up on the sticks, and you don't want it to be short or you'll do many, many measurements on shallow slopes.) The half-inch stuff works well. Cut yourself two sticks, one a comfortable five feet long and one at least eight feet and preferably around ten. Starting at the bottom of each stick, mark each one's height in easy increments, like every inch or every other centimeter. Tape or bracket the tube to the sticks. Get a friend (you can do it solo, but it takes longer and it's harder). Have the friend stand at the outflow, with the short stick. Walk downhill until the water in the tube is even with his toes. Note the difference in elevation on your stick. Write it down. Have him walk down to where you are. Walk downhill until the water in the tube is level with his toes. Repeat as necessary. Add up your measurements. It'll be very accurate. Competitive with a transit, I'll bet. I've used this method myself, recently, and it works. To my knowledge, "head" is not a unit of measurement, but a variable. So you'd say, "I have fifty feet of head" if there were a fifty foot drop. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 30 10:52:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10132 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 10:52:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22617; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 10:29:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Aug 1998 10:25:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22405 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 10:25:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Empire.Net (Empire.Net [208.223.32.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22397 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 10:25:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from empire.net (Nashua-ppp32.Empire.Net [208.223.32.132]) by Empire.Net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA12794 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 10:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35E961F5.F53B7C9B@empire.net> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 10:30:14 -0400 From: Austin Sheatsley X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Hot Water from oil-fired boiler References: <199808300600.CAA13674@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------DE534A4D4D28096CFEE00F02" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4289 --------------DE534A4D4D28096CFEE00F02 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Saturday, August 29th...Mark Webster asked: > Can anybody offer their own un-biased opinions on this matter? Do > furnace-heated units have tanks like our present heater? Wouldn't it be > inefficient to run the furnace all summer when it's not needed for heating? > Does it depend on the efficiency of our furnace (it's a fairly late model > Weil-McLain with a Beckett burner last rated at 80.5% efficiency). Will it > last longer than the ten year life-expectancy of a gas-fired water heater? > There are a number of reasons for you to consider heating your domestic hot water (DHW) via your Weil-McLain (cast iron) oil-fired boiler not the least of which is extending the life of the boiler. It's not good for the boiler to sit "cold" all summer long because condensation (like what you see dripping from your uninsulated cold water pipes) accumulates on the cast iron heat exchanger walls and corrodes same. A good solution IMHO will be to replace your gas-fired water heater with an indirect water heater that will be plumbed in to your boiler as an additional heating zone. Indirect water heaters come in different sizes from 20-gallon models up to 120-gallon plus. Since you live in Newton and likely have 4 bedrooms(?), I'd guesstimate that you'd need a 40 or 50-gallon unit (assuming your DHW needs do not include a whirlpool bath or another sort of large load). There are a number of different manufacturers of indirect water heaters.Brands that are popular in Massachusetts include SuperStor, Amtrol Hot Water Maker, MegaStor. Check with your fuel oil dealer. I replaced my horribly inefficient electric water heater with a 30-gallon MegaStor (tied into my Weil-McLain oil-fired boiler). We NEVER run out of hot water and the increase in our oil bill has been negligible. Personally, for an existing house such as ours (1850s Victorian), I think the indirect water heater was a good choice. Good Luck! Aus --------------DE534A4D4D28096CFEE00F02 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Saturday, August 29th...Mark Webster asked:
 
Can anybody offer their own un-biased opinions on this matter? Do
furnace-heated units have tanks like our present heater? Wouldn't it be
inefficient to run the furnace all summer when it's not needed for heating?
Does it depend on the efficiency of our furnace (it's a fairly late model
Weil-McLain with a Beckett burner last rated at 80.5% efficiency). Will it
last longer than the ten year life-expectancy of a gas-fired water heater?
There are a number of reasons for you to consider heating your domestic hot water (DHW) via your Weil-McLain (cast iron) oil-fired boiler not the least of which is extending the life of the boiler. It's not good for the boiler to sit "cold" all summer long because condensation (like what you see dripping from your uninsulated cold water pipes) accumulates on the cast iron heat exchanger walls and corrodes same. A good solution IMHO will be to replace your gas-fired water heater with an indirect water heater that will be plumbed in to your boiler as an additional heating zone. Indirect water heaters come in different sizes from 20-gallon models up to 120-gallon plus. Since you live in Newton and likely have 4 bedrooms(?), I'd guesstimate that you'd need a 40 or 50-gallon unit (assuming your DHW needs do not include a whirlpool bath or another sort of large load). There are a number of different manufacturers of indirect water heaters.Brands that are popular in Massachusetts include SuperStor, Amtrol Hot Water Maker, MegaStor. Check with your fuel oil dealer.

I replaced my horribly inefficient electric water heater with a 30-gallon MegaStor (tied into my Weil-McLain oil-fired boiler). We NEVER run out of hot water and the increase in our oil bill has been negligible. Personally, for an existing house such as ours (1850s Victorian), I think the indirect water heater was a good choice.

Good Luck!

Aus
 
 

  --------------DE534A4D4D28096CFEE00F02-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 30 11:35:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10470 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:35:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23726; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:11:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:08:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23450 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23445 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:07:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dell (sa-208-226-93-108.cruzio.com [208.226.93.108]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id IAA27608; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Hal Levin" To: "'Norbert Senf'" Cc: Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: Geo Dome and David Melchert Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:17:57 -0700 Message-ID: <000101bdd429$5eebc7e0$6c5de2d0@dell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4290 Norbert: You are right. It is a lot about time availability. And, it is also about labor skills. And it is about technology. And it is about what the particularly element is worth to you. In the late 60s and early 70s I worked on a study of self-help housing for HUD at a firm called Building Systems Development in San Francisco. We analyzed all of the different tasks, the time for skilled or professional performance versus do-it-yourselfer performance of the task, the paid labor costs, the technical difficulty, the criticality of "getting it exactly right,." the susceptibility of various tasks to self-helper labor, etc. We came out with a very thick report detailing the methodology and findings. Things like painting made little sense to pay for while things like pouring a concrete slab made little sense to do oneself. If time was abundant and not money, certain building systems were favored - earth-based, for example - and if time were short, systems or components made more sense - like SIPs and pre-fab roof trusses or plumbing trees. We saw owner-builders acting as the general contractor and doing no labor still saving around 35% or more of construction costs. They invested their time to buy carefully and to manage the whole process. We saw some folks doing most of the labor saving in more of the total cost. Lots of folks have some construction skills and knowledge or they have relatives and friends who have them. In 1976, I built a house with only $2000 in paid labor and lots of recycled materials and a large truckload of rough-milled, unsorted, unstamped lumber I used for everything from sheathing and nailing strips to millwork and trim. I bought 75 windows from someone at the flea market for less than the cost of the glass itself. It cost somewhere around $15/sf at a time when residential construction cost closer to two to three times that amount around here. Part of the secret to controlling cost was my unwillingness to pay regular retail or contractor prices at the suppliers I had been buying from to build commercially before that. When you have a crew waiting, you have to have the material there when they are there. You go to the lumber yard and you return with the material, regardless of small price differences or the absence of viable alternative materials or products. When no crew is waiting, you can shop - by phone, print sources, driving around, yard sales, flea markets, recycled material centers (yes, there were some around here back then). Of course a lot of the material and methods were not strictly by-the-book in terms of the code, and we were working hard for code reform to permit the use of more recycled materials. Hal Hal Levin hlevin@cruzio.com Building Ecology Research Group 2548 Empire Grade, Santa Cruz, CA 95060 tel 831 425 3946 fax 831 426 6522 -----Original Message----- From: Norbert Senf [mailto:mheat@mha-net.org] Sent: Sunday, August 30, 1998 2:41 AM To: hlevin@cruzio.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Geo Dome and David Melchert At 04:49 PM 29/08/98 -0700, Hal Levin wrote: (snip) >What you said about paying for it is a major factor. If you build it yourself >out of "free" local resources - mud, straw, clay, stone, wood, etc. - with your >own labor, it can be cheaper. And building it yourself without paid labor and >using recycled materials can be cheaper. But paying for contract work and new >materials means not much savings potential from the shell or envelope. > The other interesting thing is the large variety of different economic realities that North Americans live in, real and imagined. Years ago we brought electricity up our road - the hydro company paid to put up the poles and run the lines, but the neighbours had to brush out the right-of-way, about 3 miles. We decided to hire it out and split the cost. We got a bid for $3000.00. One neighbour said: "That's way more than its worth. Why, I could do it myself for a lot less - only I don't have the time". Hmmm..... Best..........Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 30 11:49:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10545 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:49:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24244; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:25:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:22:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23961 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:21:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR04 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.160] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23957 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:21:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from GFX-CH - 208.251.166.232 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:32:07 -0700 Message-ID: <002201bdd42b$62510100$e8a6fbd0@GFX-CH> From: "carmine vasile" To: , "Austin Sheatsley" Cc: "Warren Hodgdon" , "Tom St. Louis" , "'Mike LeBeau'" , "'Rick Graham'" , "Tim Bernadowski" , "Jim Vaughn" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Hot Water from oil-fired boiler Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:32:15 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001F_01BDD409.D6E57CC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4291 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BDD409.D6E57CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sunday, August 30, Austin Sheatsley advised: "I replaced my horribly inefficient electric water heater with a = 30-gallon MegaStor (tied into my Weil-McLain oil-fired boiler). "... Too bad Mr. Sheatsley didn't install GFX = [http://oikos.com/gfx/tests.html ] at a fraction of the cost of an = indirect water heater, to triple the shower-capacity of his electric = water heater, save energy, and keep point-of-use air pollution low by = recycling wastewater heat energy; rather than find a way to produce and = discard more energy in a less expensive manner that increases local = greenhouse gas emissions. >>>>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >>>>>Dr. Carmine Vasile, CEO Voice: 516-758-6271 >>>>>WaterFilm Energy Inc. Fax: 516-758-0438 >>>>>P.O. Box 48 Email: gfx-ch@msn.com >>>>>Oakdale, NY 11769 Web: http://oikos.com/gfx/ >>>>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -----Original Message----- From: Austin Sheatsley To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sunday, August 30, 1998 10:37 AM Subject: GBlist: Re: Hot Water from oil-fired boiler =20 =20 On Saturday, August 29th...Mark Webster asked:=20 =20 Can anybody offer their own un-biased opinions on this matter? Do furnace-heated units have tanks like our present heater? Wouldn't it be inefficient to run the furnace all summer when it's not needed for = heating? Does it depend on the efficiency of our furnace (it's a fairly late = model Weil-McLain with a Beckett burner last rated at 80.5% efficiency). Will = it last longer than the ten year life-expectancy of a gas-fired water = heater? There are a number of reasons for you to consider heating your = domestic hot water (DHW) via your Weil-McLain (cast iron) oil-fired = boiler not the least of which is extending the life of the boiler. It's = not good for the boiler to sit "cold" all summer long because = condensation (like what you see dripping from your uninsulated cold = water pipes) accumulates on the cast iron heat exchanger walls and = corrodes same. A good solution IMHO will be to replace your gas-fired = water heater with an indirect water heater that will be plumbed in to = your boiler as an additional heating zone. Indirect water heaters come = in different sizes from 20-gallon models up to 120-gallon plus. Since = you live in Newton and likely have 4 bedrooms(?), I'd guesstimate that = you'd need a 40 or 50-gallon unit (assuming your DHW needs do not = include a whirlpool bath or another sort of large load). There are a = number of different manufacturers of indirect water heaters.Brands that = are popular in Massachusetts include SuperStor, Amtrol Hot Water Maker, = MegaStor. Check with your fuel oil dealer.=20 I replaced my horribly inefficient electric water heater with a = 30-gallon MegaStor (tied into my Weil-McLain oil-fired boiler). We NEVER = run out of hot water and the increase in our oil bill has been = negligible. Personally, for an existing house such as ours (1850s = Victorian), I think the indirect water heater was a good choice.=20 Good Luck!=20 Aus=20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BDD409.D6E57CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sunday, August 30, Austin = Sheatsley=20 advised:
        "I replaced my = horribly=20 inefficient electric water heater with a 30-gallon
          MegaStor = (tied into=20 my Weil-McLain oil-fired boiler). "...
 
    Too bad Mr. Sheatsley didn't install GFX [http://oikos.com/gfx/tests.html<= /A> ] at=20 a fraction of the cost of an indirect water heater, to triple the=20 shower-capacity of his electric water heater, save energy, and keep = point-of-use=20 air pollution low by recycling wastewater heat energy; rather than find = a way to=20 produce and discard more energy in a less expensive manner that = increases local=20 greenhouse gas emissions.
>>>>>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>>>>Dr.=20 Carmine Vasile, = CEO          Voice:=20 516-758-6271
>>>>>WaterFilm Energy=20 Inc.           &nb= sp;   =20 Fax: 516-758-0438
>>>>>P.O. Box=20 48            = ;            =         =20 Email: gfx-ch@msn.com
>>>>>= Oakdale,=20 NY=20 11769           &n= bsp;       =20 Web: http://oikos.com/gfx/
>>>&= gt;>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Austin Sheatsley <asheatsley@empire.net>
To:=20 greenbuilding@crest.org=20 <greenbuilding@crest.org>Date:=20 Sunday, August 30, 1998 10:37 AM
Subject: GBlist: Re: = Hot=20 Water from oil-fired boiler

On Saturday, August=20 29th...Mark Webster asked:
 =20
Can anybody offer their own un-biased =
opinions on this matter? Do
furnace-heated units have tanks like our present heater? Wouldn't it be
inefficient to run the furnace all summer when it's not needed for =
heating?
Does it depend on the efficiency of our furnace (it's a fairly late =
model
Weil-McLain with a Beckett burner last rated at 80.5% efficiency). Will =
it
last longer than the ten year life-expectancy of a gas-fired water =
heater?
There=20 are a number of reasons for you to consider heating your domestic = hot water=20 (DHW) via your Weil-McLain (cast iron) oil-fired boiler not the = least of=20 which is extending the life of the boiler. It's not good for the = boiler to=20 sit "cold" all summer long because condensation (like what = you see=20 dripping from your uninsulated cold water pipes) accumulates on the = cast=20 iron heat exchanger walls and corrodes same. A good solution IMHO = will be to=20 replace your gas-fired water heater with an indirect water heater = that will=20 be plumbed in to your boiler as an additional heating zone. Indirect = water=20 heaters come in different sizes from 20-gallon models up to = 120-gallon plus.=20 Since you live in Newton and likely have 4 bedrooms(?), I'd = guesstimate that=20 you'd need a 40 or 50-gallon unit (assuming your DHW needs do not = include a=20 whirlpool bath or another sort of large load). There are a number of = different manufacturers of indirect water heaters.Brands that are = popular in=20 Massachusetts include SuperStor, Amtrol Hot Water Maker, MegaStor. = Check=20 with your fuel oil dealer.=20

I replaced my horribly inefficient electric water heater with a = 30-gallon=20 MegaStor (tied into my Weil-McLain oil-fired boiler). We NEVER run = out of=20 hot water and the increase in our oil bill has been negligible. = Personally,=20 for an existing house such as ours (1850s Victorian), I think the = indirect=20 water heater was a good choice.=20

Good Luck!=20

Aus
 
 =20

 

------=_NextPart_000_001F_01BDD409.D6E57CC0-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 30 15:34:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13169 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 15:34:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01801; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 15:10:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Aug 1998 15:07:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01347 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 15:07:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from epud.org (www.epud.org [208.8.142.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01342 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 15:07:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dstill ([162.162.4.151]) by epud.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA22140 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 12:30:17 -0700 Message-Id: <199808301930.MAA22140@epud.org> From: "Dean Still" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Geo Dome/Tom Ravey Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 12:21:53 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4292 Dear Tom, One of the principles of Appropriate Technology is that technological solutions fit into certain circumstances. Maybe the problem comes when a great solution, like adobe, rammed earth, etc. which is created in and for desert climates, moves via interest and promotion to other climates, where the high mass/low R combination is not very suitable. (English cob was created once all the trees were gone and the approximate .25 R per inch of thickness was a lot better than leaky stone or next to nothing at all.) In cloudy, cold, rainy Oregon where I live, high mass/low R buildings do what they are supposed to: try to maintain the average 24 hour temperature. So the house really wants to stay too cold for comfort. Additional heating is sucked up by the high mass and passes through the low R walls requiring large and constant amounts of paid for heat to sooth occupants. In our situation a high R house, whether or not it has mass within the insulation envelope, makes for easy, sustainable living. But, in effect, I agree with you. There are many great solutions. My point, I suppose, is that these solutions tend to be specific and all have pluses and minuses. Also that it is the responsibility of promoters to disseminate facts not hopes, that when soured, can turn idealism into cynicism. Fair enough? Dean Still Aprovecho Research Center ---------- > From: Tom Ravey > To: greenbuilding-digest@crest.org > Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Geo Dome and David Melchert greenbuilding-digest Aug 29 98 Vol 02 : N 293 > Date: Sunday, August 30, 1998 9:45 AM > > > > >Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:18:43 -0700 > >From: "Dean Still" > >Subject: GBlist: Re: FADS > > > >Yeah, David that is why houses keep on looking the same, I agree. The > normal way > >is most usually the cheapest way, given that you pay to get it done. > >Also, in my opinion, people who promote new fads in building, like domes, > cob, > >adobe, straw, etc. push the fad along, make a buck, and do a disservice to > >rationality and the naive. Won't it be a great day when the eco-public has > >matured to the point that exaggerated claims will be appreciated in light > of the > >known and possible...Pushing a hopeful seeming fad along, (most recent > example: > >straw in wet climates?) helps to deepen the disapointment when the Second > Look > .....snip > > >Dean: > >Thank you very much for this courageous message. I am very happy to see > someone > >come out and say it. Many of these technologies are advocated for their > presumed > >(although, in my opinion, often undemonstrated) environmental benefits. > Others > >advocate or choose them for cost-savings reasons. > >While innovation is still possible that will improve cost or environmental > >performance, I do not believe the potential gains are anywhere near as > large as > >is often claimed. > .....snip > > Dean & Hal: > If you include adobe construction in "fads", you obviously haven't spent > much time looking at the housing markets worldwide. It is by far, the > oldest, and most widespread method of housing construction in the entire > world and it is hardly a fad. In fact, in my opinion, most of the "modern" > building techniques are the "fads" of today, and have had huge impact on the > environment by comparison. The costs to society of natural resources, > energy, production and transport of nearly all modern building methods when > compared to adobe construction is overwhelming. Even the use of wood, > something I see constantly advocated on this list as an acceptable green > material, has devastated forests worldwide at a prodigious rate and > continues to do so today. The use of fired brick continues to do the same > thing, in most third countries trees are used to fire the kilns so the > environmental impact is profound. > > I do agree that exaggerated claims are constantly made in efforts to > "promote" many of the methods you listed, but that is a reflection on the > company doing the promotion, not of the method itself. As for the > "undemonstrated" environmental benefits, simple common sense supports adobe > construction as one of the best methods for protecting our environment > today. Keep in mind that the housing crisis worldwide is in the millions of > units, any method that exploits natural resources is going to have a > significant impact on the environment. As for costs savings, it is true > that any alternative method structure can be easily misrepresented, but > again, when comparing apples to apples, especially for mass low income > housing, modern methods can't compare to adobe construction. The basic > material is free, unskilled labor can be used, and most often there are no > transport costs. The finished structure is extremely efficient energy wise > especially in hotter climates. The cost problem here in the states is > related to the fact that the contractors are often unfamiliar with the > method, they use expensive labor to do an inexpensive job, and it drives the > overall cost up. > > Hal, your cost analysis is certainly applicable in highly developed > countries on a single unit basis, but it doesn't apply in third world > countries, where the largest housing demands exist. Third world countries > are looking for tens of thousands, sometimes millions of units to be built > in the shortest time possible. That is where the largest environmental > impacts are going to occur, if the methods they use are sabotaging our > environment and depleting our natural resources. The truth is, many > alternative systems when analyzed in volume, do reduce costs significantly, > in fact they offer a solution where modern techniques can't. Often the > "finished" house is just a shell, the primary cost is the walls and roof. > Many don't have air conditioning or even heat so thermal efficiency is > critical. The costing method is entirely different, labor costs don't > compare, etc. etc. So before you condemn people advocating "alternative" > methods, you might take a little larger perspective, one that includes the > rest of the world. > > Tom Ravey > Adobe International, Inc. > http://adobe-block.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 30 15:39:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13186 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 15:39:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02214; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 15:15:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Aug 1998 15:12:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01896 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 15:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01891 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 15:11:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id MAA06413 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 12:22:27 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 30 Aug 1998 12:21:53 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: Re: NeoGeos To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA01892 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4293 I for one am curious about how domes can now, supposedly, be made leak-proof! Even though I've always thought they were ugly as good behavior, I used to think how neat it would be to spend a winter making all these precise triangles and then, come spring, bolt them all together for an instant shelter. But, alas, I found out no one could keep them from leaking. So tell us, howz it done? As for them creating a space that's impossible to subdivide and decorate (Brand), well, that could just be a failure of imagination. And especially weird coming from a boat lover. Jean PS Possibly the biggest problem, of course, with owner-built homes is a typical owner's inability to access her own skills. Many white collar "professionals," especially, think that all construction skills are simple and easily acquired. (Is it "present company accepted" or "excepted"?) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 30 18:25:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA14525 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:25:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09193; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:02:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Aug 1998 17:58:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA08791 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 17:58:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08787 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 17:58:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Strawnet@aol.com Received: from Strawnet@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.3) id 1YPYa12766 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:08:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:08:02 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: domes, straw, innovation, reality, etc. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4294 Dean's, Fred's, and Hal's comments are all excellent and I want to make a couple of additional points that I think are worth remembering. I also feel compelled to make an observation as a representative of the group being discussed in the abstract as promoting alternatives, making a buck and doing a disservice to rationality and the naive. As one of the people who got involved earlier than most in the straw bale revival, I choose not to take these comments too personally, though I may have been as guilty as anyone else at some point when my enthusiasm and lack of full understanding (that's actually a myth - full understanding, but a subject for a different discussion) led to some exaggeration of benefits, ignorance of potential problems, etc. As for making money doing this sort of thing, I don't know too many people who have succeeded in doing that out on the "blunt, bludgeoning edge" of low-tech building, to paraphrase Matts Myhrman. Rather than go into a defensive position and describe all the ways that I and others (well represented, for instance, in The Last Straw journal - a publication that has been quite good at addressing these hard issues directly for many years now) have been working to bring accurate, fair, and responsible information to people about straw bale construction and many other alternatives, I want to point to some issues that keep falling out of the discussion because of the culture and economic system we are all so embedded in. We all live and work in buildings that have problems. Some major and dangerous, some just minor annoyances. Most of these buildings are conventionally designed and built, are expensive to operate and maintain, and have enormous impacts. That is not news to anyone on this list. I see a tendency, however, to become much more critical of the same failures that occur in innovative buildings, which we tolerate easily in our own conventional ones. We seem to have higher expectations and lower tolerance for failure in these experimental buildings, which are trying to solve multiple problems on a much deeper level. I understand full well that much is at stake in these early attempts and that there is little room for failure at the front end of the development of something new. But I have guaranteed for many years that there would be failures of every type with straw bale buildings, just as there have been for every other building method that comes into wide use. And of course that is coming true. I am also concerned that we pay attention to what is actually happening in the rest of the world, which hasn't yet entirely been warped by our acquisitive and materialistic compulsion. Tiny homes, by our standards, are mansions to much of the developing world. Improved resource and thermal efficiency - over tin and tarpaper shacks, not over conventional stick-built housing - is what we are talking about for the majority of the world's population. We get a very insular world view, even on this list of extremely enlightened, aware, and caring people. I do it myself every day. Yet I keep coming back to realizing the importance of these alternatives and their acceptance here, in creating the possibility of their acceptance in developing countries where our influence is to continually encourage people to reject the natural, low-tech, local, indigenous ways of doing things for the supposedly "superior" technological advances of the west. We do indeed need to be responsible for the accuracy of our claims and the viability of the methods we promote, but the standards by which we judge those things should not be solely whether they make "economic sense." Non-industrial alternatives have a very rough road here in the US today. What is needed is honesty and a big enough perspective to understand what we are really doing. These alternatives can be seductive. I have told that to most of the workshops and other groups I have talked to over the past several years. But they are no more seductive and potentially no more dangerous or harmful than the seduction of conventional design and building. When we consider all the impacts - wastes, toxins and toxic processes, resource use and alteration (whether those resources can be reused or return safely to the environment, etc.), embodied energy, carbon sequestration or release, etc., and try to get a handle on the real costs of what we are doing and promoting, we will probably come to very different choices than the ones that seem to make sense at first glance. Some green looking materials and methods aren't very green and some conventional ones are greener than we might give them credit for. We shouldn't let our quest for the perfect become the enemy of the good or better, and we need to be watchful about our own objectivity. We also shouldn't neglect the hard work involved in overcoming the other barriers to the use of these alternatives - like building codes, financing, insurance, etc. This has been the focus of much of our work at the Development Center for Appropriate Technology over the past several years. It is part of the responsibility of promoting alternatives. Finally, I just need to say that were it not for the hundreds of personal "thank you" letters, calls, messages, and face to face comments that I've gotten over the past few years, from people living in and working on straw bale houses, and for the experience of being in a large number of bale buildings in a wide geographical and climate range - from the oldest (1903) ones in Nebraska, Wyoming, and South Dakota, to ones just finished or in progress - I might feel differently about some of the issues relative to rationality and naivete. I had an interesting experience at lunch recently. A woman who appeared to be in her sixties, whom I had never met, was sitting next to a family friend, another woman who is about the same age. Both of these women have built their own straw bale houses, and love them. The woman thanked me for having helped write The Straw Bale House book because she said it was what made her believe that she could in fact build her own house. It wasn't easy, she said, but she couldn't be happier that she had done it and she couldn't be happier with a house. I've had dozens of people tell me similar stories. Not all seduction leads to a bad end. David Eisenberg DCAT PO Box 27513 Tucson, AZ 85726-7513 (520)624-6628 (520) 798-3701 fax http://www.azstarnet.com/~dcat/ http://www.azstarnet.com/~dcat/barriers.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 30 19:59:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA16575 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 19:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11943; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 19:35:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Aug 1998 19:30:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11655 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 19:30:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA11651 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 19:30:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dell (sa-208-226-93-110.cruzio.com [208.226.93.110]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id QAA08613; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Hal Levin" To: Cc: Subject: GBlist: RE: greenbuilding-digest V2 #295 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:40:24 -0700 Message-ID: <000401bdd46f$8ff81320$6e5de2d0@dell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <199808302158.RAA08806@solstice.crest.org> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4295 Tom et al: I worked as a Peace Corps architect in Colombia back in the mid-60s, and most of the buildings I designed were built out of earth-based materials, depending on elevation and available local materials. We had lots of free labor and practically no money. When I had a budget, it was $300 or less for a school, usually used to by roofing and hardware. Everything else was harvested or whatever locally. The buildings (18 schools, six other buildings) I designed were built all over the country, in the tropical jungle, coffee country, and the high plane (at 10,000 feet up) in the Andes, so climates varied greatly, as they do anywhere. Near the equator the sun hits all four sides of the building over the course of the year, so construction that could be done by local, unskilled or semi-skilled labor was tailored to the weather regime of the locale. Earth was the most common material. Often, rammed or tamped earth walls. Some were concrete block, a few were brick. Were I lived for a while (3,500 ft elevation) the houses for ordinary folks were all built from bamboo, then wattle and daub with a plaster finish topped with white wash. Three and even four story bamboo houses there survived strong earthquakes (including one I endured). Some of the adobe structures did not fare so well. I did have a Cinva-Ram walled school under construction once with free standing sections intended to be tied with a RC beam at the top and columns in the corners and every 5 meters or so. No concrete had been poured yet when the earthquake hit. I was sure my walls would all be on the ground. They were not. The walls were undamaged. But most of the earth structures in the village and the surrounding area were destroyed and there were lots of deaths. Even building with earth - adobe, tamped, rammed, stabilized, or whatever - requires proper application to the circumstances. I don't want to preach, but Schumacher knew what he was talking about. Back then it was called "appropriate technology." Now it is meaninglessly and worse yet, misleadingly called 'green" or "sustainable." I like appropriate much better. Here is what the Amer. Heritage Dict says: ap·pro·pri·ate (...-pr1/2"pr¶-¹t) adj. 1. Suitable for a particular person, condition, occasion, or place; fitting. --ap·pro·pri·ate tr.v. Thanks to all for their comments on this thread. I like it. Good stuff for a weekend, anyway. Hal Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:45:24 -0500 From: "Tom Ravey" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Geo Dome and David Melchert greenbuilding-digest Aug 29 98 Vol 02 : N 293 .....snip Dean & Hal: If you include adobe construction in "fads", you obviously haven't spent much time looking at the housing markets worldwide. It is by far, the oldest, and most widespread method of housing construction in the entire world and it is hardly a fad. In fact, in my opinion, most of the "modern" building techniques are the "fads" of today, and have had huge impact on the environment by comparison. The costs to society of natural resources, energy, production and transport of nearly all modern building methods when compared to adobe construction is overwhelming. Even the use of wood, something I see constantly advocated on this list as an acceptable green material, has devastated forests worldwide at a prodigious rate and continues to do so today. The use of fired brick continues to do the same thing, in most third countries trees are used to fire the kilns so the environmental impact is profound. I do agree that exaggerated claims are constantly made in efforts to "promote" many of the methods you listed, but that is a reflection on the company doing the promotion, not of the method itself. As for the "undemonstrated" environmental benefits, simple common sense supports adobe construction as one of the best methods for protecting our environment today. Keep in mind that the housing crisis worldwide is in the millions of units, any method that exploits natural resources is going to have a significant impact on the environment. As for costs savings, it is true that any alternative method structure can be easily misrepresented, but again, when comparing apples to apples, especially for mass low income housing, modern methods can't compare to adobe construction. The basic material is free, unskilled labor can be used, and most often there are no transport costs. The finished structure is extremely efficient energy wise especially in hotter climates. The cost problem here in the states is related to the fact that the contractors are often unfamiliar with the method, they use expensive labor to do an inexpensive job, and it drives the overall cost up. Hal, your cost analysis is certainly applicable in highly developed countries on a single unit basis, but it doesn't apply in third world countries, where the largest housing demands exist. Third world countries are looking for tens of thousands, sometimes millions of units to be built in the shortest time possible. That is where the largest environmental impacts are going to occur, if the methods they use are sabotaging our environment and depleting our natural resources. The truth is, many alternative systems when analyzed in volume, do reduce costs significantly, in fact they offer a solution where modern techniques can't. Often the "finished" house is just a shell, the primary cost is the walls and roof. Many don't have air conditioning or even heat so thermal efficiency is critical. The costing method is entirely different, labor costs don't compare, etc. etc. So before you condemn people advocating "alternative" methods, you might take a little larger perspective, one that includes the rest of the world. Tom Ravey Adobe International, Inc. http://adobe-block.com Hal Levin hlevin@cruzio.com Building Ecology Research Group 2548 Empire Grade, Santa Cruz, CA 95060 tel 831 425 3946 fax 831 426 6522 ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 30 21:56:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA18502 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 21:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16642; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 21:33:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Aug 1998 21:27:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16262 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 21:27:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16253 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 21:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust47.tnt7.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.20.47]) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA04468 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35E9FD9E.394C@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:34:22 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: greenbuilding-digest V2 #295 References: <000401bdd46f$8ff81320$6e5de2d0@dell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4296 Hal Levin wrote: > > I don't want to preach, but Schumacher knew what he was talking about. Back > then it was called "appropriate technology." Now it is meaninglessly and worse > yet, misleadingly called 'green" or "sustainable." I like appropriate much > better. > > Thanks to all for their comments on this thread. I like it. Good stuff for a > weekend, anyway. > Yes, good thread. The responses from the straw and adobe folks are appreciated. I think that in the quick-memo world of email it is important to remember that these are complex issues which require careful, intricate and individual evaluation, lest we fall into the velveeta world of sweeping generalized and misleading statements. For example, one could make true claims that earth-sheltered houses are the mainstream, when you look at the long term history of mankind, but in our context of today in America, we do not have the time to rebuild our dwellings every few years. Yeah, thanks for the reminder of EF Schumacher and appropriate technology. One bit sticks in my throat, a comment early on in this thread (back when it was still connected to geodesic domes) that spoke of promoters of alternatives making a buck and moving on. I think we should eschew such cynicism. The articulate comments by Tom Ravey and David Eisenberg are good examples; I would throw in the Ianto Evans and the Cobb Cottage folks, Nadir Khalili and his sand domes, and a whole host of others who have a positive vision and are working very hard to realise it. Anyone who knows these people can easily see that making a buck and moving on is the last of their motivations. This does not mean that we all drop our conventions and pile on to one band wagon or another. There have been many dead ends. Remember the glass box solar houses of the 70's? kind of ugly. It is tough hanging with paradoxes, but we have one here: there is on one hand a sense of urgency that we start building houses in a new way before we help to further destroy the earth's carrying capacity; on the other hand, perhaps it is very good that alternatives do take time to sift through, so that the best can eventually emerge without loss and waste. Can we as a group develop the wisdom and depth to hold paradoxes and not succumb to opinionated, one-sided, short-term or cynical views? seth melchert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Aug 30 22:04:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA18845 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 22:04:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17122; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 21:41:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 30 Aug 1998 21:36:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16721 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 21:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (root@wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16717 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 21:35:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.223.150.133] (cisco-ts12-line1.uoregon.edu [128.223.150.133]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28724 for ; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:46:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199808310146.SAA28724@wakko.efn.org> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:46:02 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Hardwood floors From: "Jon Hoyt" To: Greenbuilding Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4297 I have about 900 square feet of hardwood flooring that I'd like to refinish. Does anyone have any suggestions for a finish material to use that's relatively benign, environmentally? It seems to me that the clouds of dust that will be created from sanding off the old finish will be a health hazard, also. Any ideas how to mitigate the effects, both to humans and to furniture, fixtures, etc.? Actually, I've never done this before so any input anyone wants to give about the job will be very much appreciated. Thanks, Jon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 31 01:07:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA20813 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 01:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA21641; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:44:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:37:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA21288 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:37:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA21284 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 00:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust149.tnt12.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.33.149]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA18453; Sun, 30 Aug 1998 21:47:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35EA2A2C.847@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 21:44:28 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jon Hoyt CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Hardwood floors References: <199808310146.SAA28724@wakko.efn.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4298 Jon Hoyt wrote: > > I have about 900 square feet of hardwood flooring that I'd like to refinish. > Does anyone have any suggestions for a finish material to use that's > relatively benign, environmentally? > > It seems to me that the clouds of dust that will be created from sanding off > the old finish will be a health hazard, also. Any ideas how to mitigate the > effects, both to humans and to furniture, fixtures, etc.? > > Actually, I've never done this before so any input anyone wants to give > about the job will be very much appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Jon > Jon: Perhaps first you need to clarify what you mean by environmentally benign. Do you mean is it low toxic when applied or afterwards? Do you mean low-impact to the environment during manufacture and distribution? Do you mean durable and protective in the long term? Some people use walnut oil and beeswax because other finishes are too strong for years. Others use water-borne polyurethanes because they outgas relatively small amounts of volitile organic compounds. There are a variety of catalitic water-borne products out nowadays (Pacific Strong is one that I have used) that are very durable. Unless you are hypersensitive (and many people are)the old finish dust itself is probably not especially toxic; components such as lead are not generally added to clear finishes. On the other hand, who knows what other things have worked into the floor since it was last finished. In general, don't eat the dust, wear a good particle mask, and it will probably be ok. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 31 02:12:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA21815 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 02:12:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA23854; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 01:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 31 Aug 1998 01:43:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA23570 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 01:43:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA23566 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 01:43:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Strawnet@aol.com Received: from Strawnet@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.3) id 1ZGBa16407 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 01:52:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <601840f0.35ea3a2a@aol.com>> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 01:52:42 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: domes, straw, innovation, reality, etc. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4299 I am always so impressed with the quality of the discussion on this list. It is a great resource and a great sounding board. And it has the qualities I love - civility, honesty, generosity, intelligence, caring, often humor and tolerance. Just wanted to take a moment to say thanks to everyone. I had also planned to respond to the word "fad" used to describe several of the alternatives listed, and I would certainly exclude cob and almost all of the earthen building systems, as well as materials like straw which has an extremely long history as a building material, even if balers have only been around for 150 years and the oldest bale buildings are just under a century old. We need to think about how we got to the place where these materials are considered "alternatives" or "fads" and things like oriented strand board, two by fours, steel studs, and styrofoam are conventional. I also have been in many earthen buildings (I must admit that I actually helped build a few) that were not comfortable in either extreme of temperature, a condition that is only partly due to design issues. Mass buildings can work extremely well within a certain range of climatic conditions, outside of which they need to be insulated to perform well. I lived in a partially adobe house when I was growing up here in Tucson and there were extended times that it was too hot and too cold and that mass wasn't an advantage when it was at the wrong temperature. All of these systems need to be properly understood and designed and built if they are to be cost-, resource-, or energy-efficient. I am a proponent of all of them, where they make sense. The discussion about these alternatives, their costs, impacts, viability and appropriateness is important. One of the ways I describe appropriate technology is that it is the lowest level of technology that can be used to do well what needs to be done. Of course it also has to be appropriate in terms of the origin of the technology, place of use, and many other factors. But the level of technology is of particular interest because we need to remember that we typically know little about the real consequences of our choices and actions. We like the illusion that we know what we're doing and that we're in control, but it is rarely the case. And the more complex the systems we develop and technologies we use, the less we know about the consequences. I'm not advocating ignorance or giving up and not trying to do the hard work to understand as much as we can about those consequences. I'm just saying that we need to recognize, as David Orr has pointed out, that ignorance is not a solvable problem. (from a great book by David Orr, EARTH IN MIND). If we would honor that ignorance instead of denying it, we could have as one of the criteria we use for our decision-making, the minimization of unintended consequences. That leads us back to using the least processed materials, simplest designs, etc., as long as they do what we need them to do. Appropriate technology doesn't mean no-tech, low-tech, intermediate-tech, or high-tech. It means the right level of technology (he wrote on his computer connected to the internet). And that really does depend on what you're doing, where you are, what and who it's for, and a whole host of other local and general factors related to labor, economics, resources, culture, etc. There are no universal solutions and no quick, easy answers. But some things are obvious once you get out of the box - and materials like earth, earth and straw, straw, and lots of others make clear sense in the right circumstances. One last related thing I thought I'd pass along - The September/October issue of Building Standards (ICBO's magazine - oh yeah, for those who don't like or know the alphabet soup - International Conference of Building Officials - the folks who write the Uniform Building Code) will have a 16 page feature on alternative materials and methods of construction. There will be paired articles - one by the proponent and a sidebar article by a building official with experience with and supportive of the alternative - on adobe, rammed earth, straw bale, and earth bag construction and also a little piece on pozzolans - non-portland cements. I met Rick Okawa, VP for Technical Services for ICBO, at the ICC first draft code change hearings in Alexandria, Virginia last April, and our discussions there led him to ask me a couple of months ago if I could help pull these articles together. I wrote the overview article about why we need to be considering alternatives. Bruce King wrote the straw bale and pozzolan articles, Joe Tibbets wrote the rammed earth one, Paul McHenry the adobe article, and Nader Khalili the one on earthbag construction. I'm going to be trying to get them to put the articles up on the ICBO website so they'll be available to everyone, not just members of ICBO. ICBO covers 2700 code jurisdictions - almost all of those west of the Mississippi, so this will have a very wide audience in the western half of the US and I'm going to try to see if we can get BOCA and SBCCI to rerun the articles in their magazines. We'll see. I'll try to keep the listed posted on availability of the articles once they're out. We hope to be able to put them up on our website, if ICBO won't have them on theirs. David Eisenberg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 31 11:12:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26168 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:12:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08105; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:49:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:43:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07677 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:43:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07672 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:42:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29050 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:53:15 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:53:10 EDT From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Rammed Earth and Sustainability To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199808310600.CAA24313@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4300 Regarding the thread on the sustainablity of rammed earth. I met an architect from China in charge of building about 10000 housing units a year. In his city (a mid size Chinese city of 5 million or so), rammed earth is banned because it uses up so much of the soil around the city that food cant be grwon to support the city! The problems are that the rammed earth can only allow 3 storey and so sprawls out the city. I found this an amazing story from the very experienced Chinese rammed earth builders. Even RE will disrupt the environment too much in the scale of millions of homes, the scale of the rpoblem that needs solved. While this brings up the bigger issue of Limits to Growth, I present it as an example of how our view of sustainable can be way out of wack in a different situtation. Adobe suffers from the same problem when we try to use it solve the housing problems of the high populated, high-density parts of the world -- exactly those parts of the world that need housing the most! He was interested in a cement-based solution (!) because, in their experience, one small plant and quarry can provide all the cement they need for many years in this city and require only one sq km of land. Talk about a different view point. I am not offering solutions, just pointing out the complexity of the problems. (BTW, a double wall adobe with straw or clay-straw infill can works very well in cold climates, but then, by extension, we can do the same with just strawbale with clay plaster) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 31 11:37:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26582 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:37:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10202; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:08:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09806 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:07:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09800 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:07:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DMY6LQFB; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:17:54 EDT To: hoytj@usa.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:46:38 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Hardwood floors Message-ID: <19980831.111829.6590.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199808310146.SAA28724@wakko.efn.org> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-7,10-14 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4301 Hi, Re sanding and refinishing of wood floors, you are right that a lot of dust would be created. The most important things to do: be sure the area is well ventilated - open all windows; be sure that no mechanical system is running (a/c or heater) that could collect dust in duct work. Recently I saw a program that suggested the use of denatured alchohol for non-toxic removal of varnish and shellac. Drawback is the fuming of the alchohol. If your floor is polyurethaned this probably would not work. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 31 11:50:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26744 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:50:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11294; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:26:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:23:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10943 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10939 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:22:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DMY7E7WT; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:32:22 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:33:02 -0700 Subject: GBlist: insulation Message-ID: <19980831.113302.6590.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-13 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4302 Listers, Just received a mailer from Johns Manville touting their new "environmentally friendly" fiber glass insulation. They purport it to be formaldehyde free, polyencapsulated and, apparently, color free. The products are call Grid-Shield Rx, Sound-Shield Free and Thermal Shield Rx. Anyone seen these or have any opinions. Any plans for EBF to evaluate. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 31 13:14:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA28302 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:14:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16712; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:51:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:47:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16226 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:46:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16220; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:46:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA03421; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:56:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va16-45.ix.netcom.com(207.223.179.173) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma003397; Mon Aug 31 11:56:26 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980831125439.00708518@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:54:42 -0400 To: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: National Geo Global Change Site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4303 Good coverage of key "driver" issue here: | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 31 18:18:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA08367 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:18:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01900; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:55:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:51:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA01495 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:51:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (root@kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA01491 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:51:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.70.38 (pm2-38.hoosier.net [206.106.70.38]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23847 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:01:35 -0500 Message-ID: <35EB1D3A.29CF@ns.hoosier.net> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:01:30 -0500 From: John Bower Reply-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Discussion Subject: Re: GBlist: Hardwood floors Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4304 David Melchert wrote (in part): > Unless you are hypersensitive (and many people are)the old finish dust > itself is probably not especially toxic; components such as lead are not > generally added to clear finishes. On the other hand, who knows what > other things have worked into the floor since it was last finished. In > general, don't eat the dust, wear a good particle mask, and it will > probably be ok. Wood dust is carcinogenic. Wear a good respirator! -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 31 19:02:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA09044 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:02:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA04375; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:35:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04066 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:35:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04059 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:35:39 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id CGEDa16073; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:45:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35f2044d.35eb278b@aol.com> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:45:31 EDT To: terrain@cow-net.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Re: Geo Dome and David Melchert greenbuilding-digest Aug 29 98 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4305 Friends, I've never done this before, but I think I have to agree with John Salmen, or at least what I think he said. Given the economic and infrastructure reality of North America, stick building is appropriate technology. As John points out, "eco" customers are unfortunately more likely to be enamoured by an exotic structure than by real fundamentals of human health and saftey, economic efficiency, energy efficiency, sustainable material choices, air and water quality, air sealing, etc. For the hard core granola crunchers, domes and straw buildings have more compelling green marketing appeal than a building that is truly appropriate in our market. Truly sustainable solutions, especially for double income families in North America with tight budgets, little time and few building skills are pretty damn boring. This thread was started by my potential customers who think they need a dome. They have about $120,000 to put in a long driveway, well, raised septic system (for a 17" water table) and building a house. They have little experience or skill in the trades to contribute to the project. Coming back to appropriateness for such a project in an area where 99% of building is rectilinear stick framed, where crappy starter homes are priced in this range, where minimum building costs for contracted work range from $75/ sq. ft. and up for anything of minimal quality, and where trades people don't do a very good job unless you pay them at the end of the week, what is appropriate ecological technology? By the way Hal, I'd like to offer you a job in sales with a starting salary of $250,000 per year plus bonusses and profit sharing. Anyone that can sell 35% profit on contracting is a hell of a salesman (reference your presumtion that a do it yourselfer can save $35%.) At least in this market that is absolutely nuts. That would presume about a 55% markup over direct costs for every aspect of the project, from land aquisition, labor, materials, subs, etc. Keep dreaming buddy. I start out a project with about 15% markup and am lucky to come out at the end anywhere close. Contracting is a very high risk, low margin business. That's why only us brain damaged types persue it. Home depot and all the purveyors of kits and other DIY solutions are generally doing a great disservice to their clients, to the built environment and to the environment generally due to the foolish and uninformed way most DIY projects are concieved and executed. I have found from experience that if a customer put about a quarter of the time and effort they put into working on DIY projects into some overtime at their regular job and used the proceeds to pay a professional, they would come out way ahead financially, and get a better job. For do it yourselfers that are doing it for the pure joy of insulating or eating sheetrock dust, or the real pride of saying "I did that", it's a whole other equation, but from an economic perspective of a Gringo in a booming economy Do It Yourself solutions simply don't add up. With the world economy apparently collapsing, this economic reality may soon change and I could be requesting advice on building a straw dome to replace the nice home the bank took from my family because I tried to be an ecologically responsible builder in a booming economy where most customers just don't give a damn. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 31 22:36:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA11612 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 22:36:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14362; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 22:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 31 Aug 1998 22:09:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA14033 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 22:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA14029 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 22:09:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.163] (rkd35.acadia.net [205.217.217.163]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA03595 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 22:20:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 22:19:46 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Hardwood floors Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4306 >Jon Hoyt wrote: >> >> I have about 900 square feet of hardwood flooring that I'd like to refinish. >> Does anyone have any suggestions for a finish material to use that's >> relatively benign, environmentally? >> >> It seems to me that the clouds of dust that will be created from sanding off >> the old finish will be a health hazard, also. Any ideas how to mitigate the >> effects, both to humans and to furniture, fixtures, etc.? >> >> Actually, I've never done this before so any input anyone wants to give >> about the job will be very much appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jon >> > >Jon: > >Perhaps first you need to clarify what you mean by environmentally >benign. Do you mean is it low toxic when applied or afterwards? Do you >mean low-impact to the environment during manufacture and distribution? >Do you mean durable and protective in the long term? > >Some people use walnut oil and beeswax because other finishes are too >strong for years. Others use water-borne polyurethanes because they >outgas relatively small amounts of volitile organic compounds. There are >a variety of catalitic water-borne products out nowadays (Pacific Strong >is one that I have used) that are very durable. Seth Melchert wrote: >Unless you are hypersensitive (and many people are)the old finish dust >itself is probably not especially toxic; components such as lead are not >generally added to clear finishes. On the other hand, who knows what >other things have worked into the floor since it was last finished. In >general, don't eat the dust, wear a good particle mask, and it will >probably be ok. end of quote One exception I know of is old finishes of boiled linseed oil, which often do contain lead. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Aug 31 22:58:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA11853 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 22:58:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA15176; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 22:35:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 31 Aug 1998 22:30:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA14868 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 22:30:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bminet.bminet.com (root@console.bminet.com [207.170.27.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14864 for ; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 22:30:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from clearned.bminet.com (dial171.bminet.com [207.170.27.171]) by bminet.bminet.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA19517; Mon, 31 Aug 1998 21:57:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199809010257.VAA19517@bminet.bminet.com> From: "Chuck Learned" To: , , Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Re: Geo Dome and David Melchert greenbuilding-digest Aug 29 98 Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 21:35:52 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4307 Fred, You speak from the perspective of contractor through and through. I liken your comments to any industry that has something at stake to defend. My ex banker fully defends that the best thing for an individual and business to do is to leverage capital, use other peoples money. Well after 10 years of paying off sickening interest to my exbanker... I say that as a soon to Owner builder I do not believe in your philosophy. No 2x4s are not appropriate, they are inferior and damaging to our forest. Certainly the client you speak of can do it all for $120,000 the building size has to be appropriate to make it work. The only exception being their land cost too much. I struggle not only with your generalizations but when others do it to make points.Unless you have hard or even soft research, for example mabye you would like to take a poll with owner builders. Chuck Learned ---------- > From: FUnger@aol.com > To: terrain@cow-net.com; greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Re: Geo Dome and David Melchert greenbuilding-digest Aug 29 98 > Date: Monday, August 31, 1998 5:45 PM > > Friends, > > I've never done this before, but I think I have to agree with John Salmen, or > at least what I think he said. > > Given the economic and infrastructure reality of North America, stick building > is appropriate technology. As John points out, "eco" customers are > unfortunately more likely to be enamoured by an exotic structure than by real > fundamentals of human health and saftey, economic efficiency, energy > efficiency, sustainable material choices, air and water quality, air sealing, > etc. For the hard core granola crunchers, domes and straw buildings have more > compelling green marketing appeal than a building that is truly appropriate in > our market. Truly sustainable solutions, especially for double income families > in North America with tight budgets, little time and few building skills are > pretty damn boring. > > This thread was started by my potential customers who think they need a dome. > They have about $120,000 to put in a long driveway, well, raised septic system > (for a 17" water table) and building a house. They have little experience or > skill in the trades to contribute to the project. > > Coming back to appropriateness for such a project in an area where 99% of > building is rectilinear stick framed, where crappy starter homes are priced in > this range, where minimum building costs for contracted work range from $75/ > sq. ft. and up for anything of minimal quality, and where trades people don't > do a very good job unless you pay them at the end of the week, what is > appropriate ecological technology? > > By the way Hal, I'd like to offer you a job in sales with a starting salary of > $250,000 per year plus bonusses and profit sharing. Anyone that can sell 35% > profit on contracting is a hell of a salesman (reference your presumtion that > a do it yourselfer can save $35%.) At least in this market that is absolutely > nuts. That would presume about a 55% markup over direct costs for every aspect > of the project, from land aquisition, labor, materials, subs, etc. Keep > dreaming buddy. I start out a project with about 15% markup and am lucky to > come out at the end anywhere close. Contracting is a very high risk, low > margin business. That's why only us brain damaged types persue it. > > Home depot and all the purveyors of kits and other DIY solutions are generally > doing a great disservice to their clients, to the built environment and to the > environment generally due to the foolish and uninformed way most DIY projects > are concieved and executed. I have found from experience that if a customer > put about a quarter of the time and effort they put into working on DIY > projects into some overtime at their regular job and used the proceeds to pay > a professional, they would come out way ahead financially, and get a better > job. For do it yourselfers that are doing it for the pure joy of insulating or > eating sheetrock dust, or the real pride of saying "I did that", it's a whole > other equation, but from an economic perspective of a Gringo in a booming > economy Do It Yourself solutions simply don't add up. > > With the world economy apparently collapsing, this economic reality may soon > change and I could be requesting advice on building a straw dome to replace > the nice home the bank took from my family because I tried to be an > ecologically responsible builder in a booming economy where most customers > just don't give a damn. > > Fred > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 1 04:38:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA17799 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 04:38:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA25353; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 04:15:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Sep 1998 04:11:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA25121 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 04:11:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA25115 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 04:11:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Strawnet@aol.com Received: from Strawnet@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 1XGEa10124 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 04:20:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1fcae7de.35ebae64@aol.com> Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 04:20:52 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Hal Levin - Earthquakes & other topics Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 2.7 for Mac sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4308 The nature of the posts around this topic are indicative of the degree to which we are all attached to our world views. The fact that there are differences that are expressed with passion and conviction isn't a negative thing - just an indication of the sweep of perspectives that are brought to the discussion. I have worn a lot of hats, including that of a failed contractor trying to develop a greeen building business five or six years ago, being too far ahead of the curve with too little money to stay in the game long enough to make it work. When I call myself a recovering contractor, and joke about it taking more than a 12 step program to recover, I'm speaking at least partial truth, though the real recovery is financial and I still have a long way to go on that score. I have also spent a few years now helping a lot of individuals and organizations try to do innovative and alternative affordable housing. I've learned some hard lessons, and some I'll admit were at other people's expense, to at least a degree. But the biggest ones have to do with holding onto an integrated process and understanding of what is being done and not letting things degenerate into the catalog approach to design and building - where you just pick out the parts that strike you as being cool or looking good. And we should realize that the whole is more than the sum of the parts and the costs often are too. So you've got to pay attention to the details in the context of the whole project, and do that in the context of life-cycle costs and impacts. That's a tall order, but there are too many of us on this little green-blue sphere to put it off any longer. What still amazes me is the difficulty we have recognizing the scale factors we're dealing with and the extent to which the economics here are skewed. Some DOE figures I came across recently (Mike Myers confirmed that they were at least roughly accurate) related to new buildings are nothing short of astounding, and even if they're off some they made me want to sit down and think about something else for a while. Their 1996 estimates were that there were about 76.5 million residential buildings in the US and about 5 million commercial buildings. Their projections were that by 2010, another 38 million buildings would be built here, or over 46% of the number of buildings in existence in the US in 1996. So, put another way, in less than 15 years it is projected that we'll build half again as many buildings in the US as existed here in 1996. Think about half as many buildings as exist now. What are the impacts going to be. Are they going to be smaller, lower impact buildings? And that's just in the states. Another projection estimates that globally 75% of the buildings that will be in existence in 2030 haven't yet been built. We can argue about one material versus another, what the profit margin or risk is for builders (and I know first hand that it is small and larger respectively), whether it makes economic sense for people to build their own houses, etc. And these are all important questions that we all face in our own lives. But we need to shift some fundamentals if our kids are going to have anything remotely like a chance for a decent old age. America is an amazing place but it makes me think of adolescence every day. We haven't yet grown up and we are still thinking we have the right to anything we can get, because we can afford to have someone else pay for it. As I said in an earlier post, what concerns me as much what we do here as how what we do influences the developing world. It was pointed out some time ago that if our work related to building codes was going to have the impact that is really needed, we would have to quit focusing on alternative materials and methods and focus on mainstream practice and mainstream practitioners. Because the alternatives represent a small percentage of how buildings are built in the US today. And that is right - to a certain extent. But if you take a step back, what you see is that mainstream building practice in the US represents a small percentage of how buildings are built worldwide. And many of the materials and methods that represent mainstream building in much of the rest of the world have been marginalized and squeezed into a category in our codes called "alternative materials and methods." And we are seriously engaged in convincing the developing world that they need to emulate the industrial, ever higher-tech model of building and development that many of us on this list are striving to change, reverse, improve, or eliminate. That's why I think these alternatives are important, and why we also need to be conscious of not only what we are trying to do and think we are doing, but what else is happening as well. We need to respect that no one has the whole picture Things that are true at one level of aggregation are not necessarily true at another. And things that are perfectly coherent and cohesive from one perspective are chaotic or just plain nonsensical from another. If we want to make a difference and have some sanity in our lives, we need to be able to embrace the chaos, uncertainty, and paradoxes, and strive to make sense of the places that are dissonant and incoherent. I try to see what it is that people are adamant about, especially when it is the opposite of what I think is true. There is almost always something very informative there, often revealing a perspective as yet unconsidered or the flawed assumption that leads to a flawed conclusion, either theirs or mine or just as often, both. David Eisenberg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 1 08:22:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA19260 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 08:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA29790; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 07:59:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Sep 1998 07:55:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA29577 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 07:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA29573 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 07:55:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.84] (pm0a20.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.84]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA08097; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 08:05:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 08:05:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980831.113302.6590.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: insulation Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4309 Hi Beverly, We're on the ball on this one! We published a review of Gridshield RX when it first came out November 1996. The full review is available online at: http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Product_Reviews/Schuller.html At the time there were no users to interview yet, so we'd love to hear from anyone who has used these products and has experiences, good or bad, to report. The 4' section we played with seemed like it should work fine. Nadav At 11:33 AM -0700 8/31/98, Beverly A. Weiter wrote: >Listers, > >Just received a mailer from Johns Manville touting their new >"environmentally friendly" fiber glass insulation. They purport it to be >formaldehyde free, polyencapsulated and, apparently, color free. The >products are call Grid-Shield Rx, Sound-Shield Free and Thermal Shield >Rx. > >Anyone seen these or have any opinions. Any plans for EBN to evaluate. > Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsbile design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 1 09:53:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA20593 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03383; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:29:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:26:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03074 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:26:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03068 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:25:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uymfdlvk (dial-19-MAX-BTVT-06.ramp.together.net [208.13.204.19]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA16058 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:36:30 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980901093547.007b1d80@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 09:35:47 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re:Owner Builders In-Reply-To: <199809010600.CAA21590@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4310 To Fred -- There is a piece to this puzzle of the irrational owner builder that you might consider, and I expect you already consider, in your work: Most people seem to me to be largely disconnected from the physical world we live in -- from buying vegetables in the supermarket to spending little or no time outside -- and there is a deep inner yearning in many to make that connection again. I think that the desire to build one's own comes from that place, and that, given the impracticality of that for many or most people who work 40 hr jobs or families that work two 40 hour jobs, there needs to be a way to address this. Your work with being/becoming a developer of a green community (or however you label that effort) I think goes beautifully in this direction, and maybe you build in other ways for owners to participate in finishing certain areas of the house or land or whatever. Whatever the method, I think we need to help empower people who need homes to make some connection with the earth and their fellow inhabitants through what they choose and do relative to the home they buy/have built/help build/build. And we need to be clear about the costs and implications of doing it yourself, as several people have enumerated here. However, my experience is that for the true believer, in whatever area -- straw bale, granola, spirituality or capitalism -- data rarely has any persuasive effect... So we seek clients, friends and co-workers with enough belief to have spirit and not too much to be dogmatic. Be well and keep up the good work! -- Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT 05602 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 1 10:47:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA21226 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:47:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06676; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:24:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:19:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06248 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06244 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:18:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DM3M75JQ; Tue, 01 Sep 1998 10:29:08 EDT To: nadav@ebuild.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 10:29:59 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: insulation Message-ID: <19980901.102959.6638.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-13 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4311 Hi Nadav, I went to my back issues and reread the review of Grid-Shield Rx. I am confused - your article credits it to Schuller International. Are they now part of Johns Manville or did they just sell the rights to this product? Since I list both companies in my data base I just wondered if they are still separate. Thanks. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 1 13:30:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA24569 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:30:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15512; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:06:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:01:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA15150 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15145 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.82] (pm0a22.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.86]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA28707; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:11:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 13:11:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980901.102959.6638.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter), nadav@ebuild.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: insulation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4312 At 10:29 AM -0700 9/1/98, Beverly A. Weiter wrote: >Hi Nadav, >I went to my back issues and reread the review of Grid-Shield Rx. I am >confused - your article credits it to Schuller International. Are they >now part of Johns Manville or did they just sell the rights to this >product? Since I list both companies in my data base I just wondered if >they are still separate. Good question. It _is_ confusing. Some years ago, the Johns Manville Company changed its name to Schuller International because Johns Manville had gotten so much negative publicity over the asbestos issue--the company continued to sell asbestos long after it was shown to cause cancer, and they were hit with a huge class-action lawsuit. (I believe the name "Schuller" came from a parent company that bought all or at least part of Johns Manville.) Just in the last year or so the company went back to Johns Manville, because it had more name recognition. I guess they figured that the positive name recognition exceeds the negative name recognition. So that's why our EBN review referred to Schuller, while the product is now made by Manville--it's the same stuff. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 1 21:00:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA04288 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:00:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18018; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:37:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:33:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA17589 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:33:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA17584 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:33:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip07.ivnet.net [206.101.73.167]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA00397; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 17:42:40 -0700 Message-ID: <35EC90EE.B5AC2BCE@ivnet.net> Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 17:27:27 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Duct tape References: <6bc9d124.35e4c051@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4313 There's duck tape and duct tape. Polyken makes some high quality duct tape.I've used an aluminum foil faced tape of theirs which has a peel-off waxed paper back. This stuff is great, tho it can fail in a wet environment. There's lots of different types & grades out there. You can often get several choices from HVAC supply houses. IMSHAPIRO@aol.com wrote: > > This news clip caught my eye and I thought might be of interest to the group. > I like the line that duct tape > "... failed reliably." > > Ian Shapiro > > PACIFIC GROVE, Calif. (AP) -- Duct tape may be useful for all manner of home > repairs -- except to seal ducts. > > The familiar sticky silver tape can be used to patch a wall, mend a rip in > your jeans and even hold the bumper on your car. But researchers at Lawrence > Berkeley National Laboratory said duct tapes were never before tested to see > how well they seal together sections of metal ducts that carry hot or cold > air. > > ``What we found was that duct tape almost always failed,'' said Max Sherman, a > physicist who leads the group studying the energy performance of buildings, > said at a conference Monday. ``It failed reliably and often quite > catastrophically.'' > > Energy experts say 30 percent of the hot or cold is lost on the way to its > destination, and failed tape could be responsible for part of that loss. > > A tape maker was surprised by the new research. > > ``I can honestly say I have not had one field failure come back to my > laboratory,'' said Jerry M. Serra, vice president for research at Kendall > Polyken in Massachusetts. ``Maybe they're just not complaining, I don't > know.'' > > AP-NY-08-26-98 1902EDT > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 1 21:01:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA04294 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:01:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18087; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:38:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:34:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA17668 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:34:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from epud.org (www.epud.org [208.8.142.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA17660 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:34:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dstill ([162.162.4.185]) by epud.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA31369 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 17:58:38 -0700 Message-Id: <199809020058.RAA31369@epud.org> From: "Dean Still" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: appropriate technology/Tom Ravey Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 17:49:07 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4314 Dear Tom, We are more in agreement than not. This discussion started with the economics of building here in the good ol' USA. A lot of times novel approaches, as detailed in this chat, are not less expensive than the normal methods of construction. That's due to high cost of labor, materials, and building codes. Our straw bale dormitory was more expensive to build than a wood framed building would have cost. That certainly doesn't mean that Aprovecho Research Center where I work or anyone else should give up trying to be inventive. I would like to try to build a strawbale that fits into a moist Western Oregon climate, maybe by shrinkwrapping a dry bale and making it into a big cement block. I'll make one and see if the concept works. Also, I'd like to try to build a cob house that works. The one that we have had here for more than 10 years is a terrible house, cold in winter, hot in summer. Uses way too much wood over the heating season. The design is not appropriate to our climate. But, we are studying how to make one that might really work here, learn from mistakes. We would support it for earthquakes, insulate the outside, reduce air exchanges, etc. And if we are inventive maybe this can be accomplished without giving up on reduced use of wold damaging materials. You see, I don't think that we are there yet. Aren't David Eisenberg and all of us realizing that creating a green house out of all natural materials is a goal, not a done deed? It's really hard here in the U.S. But, I am sure that we shall succeed by experimenting and learning. Given my feeling that we are just beginning to understand how to design and build natural houses, and because I believe that good solutions evolve locally, I sure wouldn't want to export any of our ideas anywhere else!-And anyway, at least in Mexico where I lived for ten years indigenous houses, palapas, are made from all locally available material, don't cost money and seem almost perfectly suited to the environment. fraternally, Dean--------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 1 21:11:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA04361 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:11:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18756; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:48:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:44:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA18449 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:44:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cc1.ccms.net (root@ccms.net [204.96.187.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18445 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 20:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ppp16.ccms.net [204.181.93.26]) by cc1.ccms.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA22914 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 19:57:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980901075309.007b9680@mail.ccms.net> X-Sender: ldowney@mail.ccms.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 07:53:09 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Laura L. Downey" Subject: GBlist: durisol vs faswall Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4315 Hello all, this is my first post to this list . . . I am trying to find out if there are any independent studies comparing durisol and faswall. Since faswall was modeled on durisol I would like to know the significant difference(s) between the two. Also has anyone built or heard of building, a "double" durisol or faswall wall? Or in other words - two 8" walls to achieve a final 16" thick wall? The reason I ask is because I really really like the 18" thickness of straw bale but you can't really berm against straw bale. So I am trying to get the thickness another way. I know that faswall and durisol come in a 12" thickness but it just doesn't give the same "feeling." Also, what about rotating an 8"X16" durisol or faswall brick to achieve the 16" wall thickness? I am concerned about the structural implications (no interlocking etc.) Thank in advance for any and all info. Laura Downey ldowney@ccms.net p.s. I have read everything I can find on durisol and faswall on the net and otherwise but have not found any kind of comparison. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 1 21:45:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA04770 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA20782; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:21:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:17:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20290 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20286 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:17:32 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 1XTBa24645 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:26:53 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <1e542116.35ec9edd@aol.com> Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:26:53 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Domes, owner builders, appropriate technology, etc. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4316 David, Andy, Speireag, et al., Once again I may owe an apology. This time for having a couple glasses of wine before writing my last post. Prudent diplomacy was lost to some direct honesty I may not have revealed in a less relaxed state. For those that directly sent personal condolences on my company's demise, it is a bit premature, but I thank you for the kindness. The economy hasn't collapsed yet. As long as folks are buying houses, my kids are well fed, our home is safe from bankers and my clients are getting the "greenest" houses that they are willing to invest in. In fact the business is doing pretty well. The good news for all of us on this list is that our "green" marketing campaign is proving successful in attracting really nice clients to work with. That has to fit in all the equations somewhere. I do respect folks that do-it-yourself. Most of my clients end up contributing "sweat equity" in some way. I try to keep it out of the critical path of efficient production. As Andy pointed out, much of the DIY yearning seems to be for a connection to something real in the physical world, for a part of some meaningful work and a bit of self sufficiency. Many of us chose our careers in the trades for similar reasons. I try to help clients be clear that DIY efforts are generally more an act of connectedness and personal gratification than one of economic efficiency. Painting and landscaping end up being the jobs most often selected. These are the areas least likely to interfere with efficient project scheduling, most easy to add something very personal and special to a home, and in fact the areas that are most likely to actually make economic sense for a DIY project. As for the global impacts, third world needs and other macro economic and long scale impacts, I guess I have to come back to Terry's interpretation of that old environmental adage "Think Globally and Act Loco". At least around here, the boring stuff I do is close to as green as it gets. I'd love you all to come out and be my competitors, help wake up the market, create some demand for some unusual housing and stretch the creative bubble. It is always inspiring being part of this group. It's hard to take too much stock in our own rhetoric with all you folks out there as a reality check. Thanks Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 1 22:00:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA04982 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 22:00:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21518; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:37:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:33:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA21196 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:33:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA21187 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:33:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.150] (rkd67.acadia.net [205.217.217.195]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA18772 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:43:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:43:39 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Who What When Where Why Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4317 The discussion about "alternative" buildings and owner-builders is very moving. What a great group of hearts and minds in this group! One agreement we seem to be reaching is to avoid sweeping generalities - for instance, that all "alternative" building methods are inappropriate (they aren't, when viewed from a global perspective) or that all "conventional" methods are a big conspiracy by vested interests (they aren't - they work and deliver great value for a fair price). I think that Green buildings must be minutely adapted to a particular place and need. So let me please suggest that we always ask, Who? What? When? Where? Why? in our work. I could list my take on these questions, but I'd rather be lazy and ask other folks what they think. I'd really like to know. Thanks. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 1 22:11:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA05076 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 22:11:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA22056; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:48:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:44:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA21785 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:44:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA21780 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:44:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.150] (rkd22.acadia.net [205.217.217.150]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA19738 for ; Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:54:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 21:54:32 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Duct tape Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4318 quote >There's duck tape and duct tape. Polyken makes some high quality duct >tape.I've used an aluminum foil faced tape of theirs which has a >peel-off waxed paper back. This stuff is great, tho it can fail in a wet >environment. There's lots of different types & grades out there. You can >often get several choices from HVAC supply houses. end of quote We long ago gave up on tape of any kind, and always insist on ducts sealed with mastic, which we inspect personally and ruthlessly. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 2 10:23:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11936 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:23:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13844; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 10:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:55:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13326 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:55:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whirlwind.netspace.net.au (whirlwind.netspace.net.au [203.10.110.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13321 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:55:32 -0400 (EDT) From: oikos@netspace.net.au Received: from lizard ([203.12.52.174]) by whirlwind.netspace.net.au (8.9.1/NS) with SMTP id AAA28836 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 00:04:16 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <35E8D631.6AB7@netspace.net.au> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 21:33:53 -0700 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Pathway Materials Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4319 I think it was this list that asked about pathway materials for a eco-village suitable for occasional vehicle use, but mostly pedestrian. In Australia interlocking pavers (blocks that "lock" into each other in a regularly recuring pattern)are often used for driveways, etc and a new version with cut-off corners has been used at the Olympic site in Sydney. This forms a web of drainage holes (approx 1 inch x 1 inch filled with gravel) on the paved surface reducing the impermeable surface area. Also used in Australia are concrete grided pavers (approx 2x2 foot which are are around 50% open and are planted with grass. The car rests on the concrete grid of "upstands" with the grass in between avoiding compaction. These are often used for overflow car parking areas. A minimal depth of beding material is required with the pavers. If available and suitable eg heave action problems, in the US the interlocking pavers could be used for the narrow pedestrian path with the concrete grided pavers for the shoulders to make up the required vehicular access width. Hope this helps. PS we also have plastic (recycled??) versions of the grided pavers. -- John DAGLISH eco-tecture, baubiologie & permaculture email: mailto:oikos@netspace.net.au www: http://www.netspace.net.au/~oikos ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 2 11:41:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13714 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18700; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:17:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:13:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18322 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.gis.net (ns2.gis.net [208.218.130.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18318 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:13:07 -0400 (EDT) From: redelson@gis.net Received: from [209.244.238.48] (host40.209.244.238.gis.net [209.244.238.40]) by ns2.gis.net (8.8.8/8.8.8+djf) with ESMTP id LAA18528 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:28:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:28:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: redelson@208.218.130.20 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: wood fiber cellulose insulation okay? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4320 Re: insulation, i also have a question.... My state's (MA) fuel assistance program will blow "wood fiber cellulose insulation" into my house walls (from outside) for free, and then seal up any holes/drafts with "Pur Fil IG and NF" (aka Macklandburg-Duncan Acrylic Caulk). does anyone know these products effect on folks who are chemically sensitive (yup, that would be me!)... the wood fiber is "chemically treated" (with what?? i don't know) but not with formaldehyde. thanks in advance for any words of wisdom! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 2 12:53:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16342 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:53:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23188; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:24:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22841 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22837 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:24:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id JAA08814 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 09:35:07 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 2 Sep 1998 09:34:02 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: Dome Controversy To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA22838 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4321 Now that the smoke is clearing, after Fred has publicly questioned a family's intelligence and winefully spread their financial information across these pages; after contractors have debated whether there is a living to be made in green construction, or a quick killing; after eloquent testimonials to the collective sagacity of the group, I wonder about this: how well has this group served the needs of the family whose mere desire for a shelter started all the fuss? I went back to How Buildings Learn to see what Brand actually said about domes. He said they were a "massive, total failure": they "leaked, always," they were "impossible to subdivide," and wasteful of material because of cutting triangles from rectangles; changing the insides was "difficult," and "adding anything to the outside nearly impossible." I couldn't find Kahn's renunciation, but as I recall the leakage factor was his main complaint. Since, unless the building was designed by F.L. Wright, one takes a leakless dwelling as a sort of bare minimum requirement, let's address that issue first. Are the construction professionals in this group satisfied that domes have not and CAN NOT be adequately sealed? Are those (for instance ) who claim otherwise either charlatans or deluded? Is it within the realm of possibility that (some) dome builders have figured out how to seal these things? As for domes being wasteful of materials: I had always read that domes were the most efficient--least wasteful of materials--way to enclose space. Is this not true? (The dome builder at the above mentioned site uses plywood triangle scraps in trusses .) If one makes PSF comparisons between stick-builts and domes, using more or less conventional materials, are the domes, in fact, "wasteful"? Let's leave aside for the moment the fact that, while Brand is an extremely provocative and interesting thinker, he is not always a model of rational or consistent thought. While he condemns domes as being impossible to subdivide or retrofit, when he talks fondly of the boat he and his wife converted to living quarters, he says a space "being reconfigured for a foreign new use is filled with novel opportunities and impossible-seeming problems. Both encourage creativity, and you can't brute-force design solutions on an implacably existing building: you have to finesse them. Invention becomes a habit as you proceed." I have already stated that domes do not appeal to me esthetically, but that I, along with countless others, have been attracted to their seeming rationality. So I ask again that the building profesionals in this group look dispassionately at current dome technology, and render specific advice to the family at the center--of a controversy that seems to have forgotten their needs. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 2 13:07:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA17534 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:07:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24416; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:44:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:40:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24010 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:40:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24006 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 12:40:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.137.73.92] (henyusr0-a62.herd.tds.net [208.137.73.126]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA15631 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:50:52 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 11:50:52 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: C Neurath Subject: GBlist: insulation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4322 >Just received a mailer from Johns Manville touting their new >"environmentally friendly" fiber glass insulation. They purport it to be >formaldehyde free, polyencapsulated and, apparently, color free. The >products are call Grid-Shield Rx, Sound-Shield Free and Thermal Shield >Rx. > >Anyone seen these or have any opinions. Any plans for EBF to evaluate. > >Beverly Weiter Beverly and others, I haven't used the Johns Manville stuff but I have just recently finished installing the Owens Corning Miraflex fiberglas insulation in my own house addition. From EBF's article on the Johns Manville stuff, it sounds like it isn't as good as the Miraflex. Also, the Miraflex is fairly widely available and I only paid 10 or 20% more for it than for regular fiberglas. I was very happy with the Miraflex in terms of healthiness. They use no binders or colors at all and keep the fibers from falling apart by a patented glass spinning technology which supposedly makes each fiber curly and springy so that they hold together on their own. They also wrap the entire batt in a thin pink perforated polyethylene bag to further limit any loose fibers getting into the air. But even when I was working with handfulls of unbagged Miraflex, to stuff into small spaces, I found minimal airborne fibers and virtually no itchiness. The one drawback of Miraflex I found is that the batts do not hold together as well as ones saturated with chemical binders and so they are sold only for ceiling or attic insulation, in only one thickness (8"). When I tried to staple a batt between studs in a wall it only took a few weeks before most of the batt had come slithering down and lay in the bottom of the bay between the studs. Since I wanted to use the Miraflex for my walls I had to develop my own techniques for holding it up in place in vertical installations. All my methods involved more time although not much cost in materials. They seem to hold it securely in 7 1/4" thick walls. Miraflex vertical installation methods: 1. When I cut a batt to size I used packaging tape (with one of those automatic hand held dispenser/cutters) to seal the plastic covering at both ends so the batt couldn't slide right out of the slippery polyethylene bag. 2. At the top of a bay I used a slat of wood attached with a few screws to squeeze some of the end of the batt (which was reinforced with the sealing tape) to the bottom of the plate. 3. Every 2 or 3 feet down the bay I ran a length of stiff steel wire horizontally between the studs and right through the center of the batt. I made loops at each end of the wire through which to place screws to attach the wire to the studs. I tried to make the wire tight instead of letting it sag. If it sagged the fiberglass sometimes slumped towards the center leaving gaps along the studs. 4. Before sealing over the walls I went around and stuffed handfuls of fiberglas in the few spots where the batts didn't seem to fill the entire bay properly. Friction seemed to be enough to keep this in place. I don't know for sure whether these methods will keep the fiberglas in place in the walls for the next 50 or more years, but it looks pretty secure. Check back in 10 years from now for an update. If you were installing the 8" thick batts in a thinner wall, say one made of 2x6's, then I bet the squeezing action between the exterior sheathing and interior drywall would also help keep it from sliding down. And, if you just need insulation for an attic floor or low pitched ceiling, I would highly recommend Miraflex on healthiness grounds. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 2 13:53:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18795 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:53:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA27299; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:29:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:25:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26893 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:25:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26887 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:25:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mnsinc.com (a0062.culpeper.mns.net [206.239.106.94]) by relay1.mnsinc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA26901 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 13:35:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35EDAC71.A9B01F93@mnsinc.com> Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 13:37:07 -0700 From: khassan X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Domes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4323 Amen Jean. I am an owner/builder who opted to build a dome. I had very little building skills when I started but a great deal of time and patience, so I learned from books and friends with more experience than I. It has taken a while but it's up and almost ready for occupancy. I too was very concerned about domes and their reputation for leaking. We have been under roof for over a year and no leaks yet. We live in Virginia, Blue Ridge Mountains region, strong winds and torrential rains are no strangers here. All of our windows and doors are off the shelf (Lowes, 84 Lumber, Home Depot). As far as interior space is concerned it is not boxed in, we tried very hard to maintain a feeling of "domeness", open and airy and in my humble opinion have succeeded quite well. I don't have a lot of waste because I don't believe in waste, it becomes waste when I absolutely, positively can not find any use for it. K. Hassan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 2 18:48:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA25993 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 18:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14502; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 18:25:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Sep 1998 18:21:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA14170 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 18:21:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (root@kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14166 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 18:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.70.3 (pm2-3.hoosier.net [206.106.70.3]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05257; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 17:31:44 -0500 Message-ID: <35EDC748.5B30@ns.hoosier.net> Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 17:31:38 -0500 From: John Bower Reply-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: redelson@gis.net CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: wood fiber cellulose insulation okay? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4324 Ceemically sensitive people have indeed been bothered by cellulose (a few seriously), but its usually involved sloppy installation, poor clean-up, etc. Cellulose is generally only going to be a problem if it gets into the living space (or inside ducts), which is the air you breathe. If air infiltrates thru cracks from the outdoors, then thru insulation (almost any kind of insulation), then into the living space, it can bring insulation fibers or particles with it. Cellulose has an advantage here (especially if it's dense pack) in that it will reduce infiltration. Caulking will also reduce infiltration, but it's virtually impossible to seal up all the gaps in an existing house. Tightening reduces infiltration (and exfiltration). Too much tightening, and you need mechanical ventilation. Most weatherization folks understand this. My choice is to tighten as much as possible. (I'd say that the healthiest houses are almost hermetically sealed.) This minimizes the chance of insulation fibers getting into the living space (and radon, for that matter). Then, by ventilating mechanically, you have maximum control over your incomming air. For example, you can turn it on and off, adjust the speed, etc. Check out the articles at our web site, and the 3rd edition of The Healthy House book. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 2 19:06:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA26273 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 19:06:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15967; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 18:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Sep 1998 18:39:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA15609 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 18:39:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15601 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 18:39:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA10256; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 17:48:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va21-18.ix.netcom.com(207.223.181.82) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma010231; Wed Sep 2 17:48:34 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980902184646.006f8300@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 18:46:49 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Insulation Info Sites (a few) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4325 Insulation Information Sites of Potential Interest: (contact Bion Howard: ) Building Environmental Science and Technology ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CIMA cellulose mfgrs NAIMA mineral fibrous Icynene foamed in place PIMA polyisocyanurate Poly-iso (one product) [R-7.2/in?] EPS Molders (tic tic tic, huge graphic....) HI-R Block R-10 (tested) block Sparfil W.S. II CAN Spec ruling Recover Board: Recycled DOE Fact Sheet R- "calculator" DOE Radiant Barrier Factsheet (download PDF): HTML version: FTC 1996 Final Rule: EEBA Builder Guides: (secure ordering) ------------------ (other wierd tales)------------------------------- RBS "chips" (or flakes ?) Example home w/RBS chips ---------------------------------------------------------------------- We can provide your company or group with more indepth studies of energy efficient and green building products and technology issues. Contact us for more details, or visit our web site. | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 2 20:31:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA27232 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 20:31:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA19214; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 20:07:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Sep 1998 20:03:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA18932 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 20:03:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18928 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 20:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip178.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.178]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA18587 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 20:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980903002616.00924a50@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 02 Sep 1998 20:26:16 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Duct tape Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4326 At 09:54 PM 9/1/1998 -0400, David M. Foley wrote: >quote >>There's duck tape and duct tape ... The entire duct tape article is at best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 2 23:49:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA01071 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:49:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27579; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:25:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:21:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27211 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:21:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27207 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:21:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.152] (rkd24.acadia.net [205.217.217.152]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA07291 for ; Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:31:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 23:31:21 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Dome Controversy Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4327 Jean Gallagher urges us to look at domes objectively, and to advise the family who thinks they'd like to live with one. I think that by "objectively", Jean means that we should think not of our needs or prejudices, but of the needs of this family. If the couple came to Sarah and me for advice, we'd praise domes for their efficient use of sturcture to span great distances, their strength to weight ratio, and their fantastic strength in snow and wind. We'd ask what about domes appealed to them, enough that they's like to live in one. If we sensed that they wanted a dome because they think domes are nifty, and they want to live in something nifty, then we'd advise them, yeah, go get a dome, but beware that they are notoriously hard to leakproof, roof, side, furnish and sell to someone else later. If they told us that they'd heard that the technical problems with domes had been solved, we'd ask, "Have they been solved easily for the long term with minimal technical intervention? Or are you always fighting and fixing the tendency of water to flow into all those joints? With enough technical fixes, we can get a hippopotamous to dance, but it will never be graceful. With a simple pitched roof of adequate slope, and good detailing to prevent ice dams, you have to work overtime to get it to leak. With a dome, you have to work overtime to keep it from leaking. But it's your life." If they said that domes were much cheaper to build, we'd ask for hard evidence, point out to them the relatively small percentage of construction cost of a building's enclosure (same plumbing, electrical, windows, doors, finishes, etc., only now you've made all those systems harder), and work with them to calculate the lifetime cost of the dome, not just the first cost. We'd point out to them that it's not so great when people have to squeeze their lives into a predetermined structural system. "Form follows Function" might be more simply written "Shape follows Use" - only with a dome, Use follows Shape. When the space you spend your life in is always subtly wrong, at odds with your deep needs, forcing you into patterns you don't like, then that space literally can make you crazy. In the end, we probably wouldn't recommend the dome, because it has some nifty Know-How, but not very much Know-Why. Whether or not that would be objective advice, of true benefit to Fred's clients, I couldn't possibly guess. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 03:22:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA03440 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 03:22:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA05022; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 02:59:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 02:54:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA04819 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 02:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA04815 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 02:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dell (sa-208-226-93-124.cruzio.com [208.226.93.124]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id AAA14072; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 00:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Hal Levin" To: Cc: Subject: GBlist: RE: greenbuilding-digest V2 #297 Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 00:03:51 -0700 Message-ID: <001101bdd709$0295ef60$7c5de2d0@dell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <199809010600.CAA21590@solstice.crest.org> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4328 > From: FUnger@aol.com > > Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Re: Geo Dome and David Melchert greenbuilding-digest Aug 29 98 On Monday, August 31, 1998 5:45 PM, Fred Unger wrote, [snip] > By the way Hal, I'd like to offer you a job in sales with a starting salary of $250,000 per year plus bonusses and profit sharing. Anyone that can sell 35% profit on contracting is a hell of a salesman (reference your presumtion that a do it yourselfer can save $35%.) At least in this market that is absolutely nuts. That would presume about a 55% markup over direct costs for every aspect of the project, from land aquisition, labor, materials, subs, etc. Keep > dreaming buddy. I start out a project with about 15% markup and am lucky to come out at the end anywhere close. Contracting is a very high risk, low margin business. That's why only us brain damaged types persue it. > > Home depot and all the purveyors of kits and other DIY solutions are generally doing a great disservice to their clients, to the built environment and to the environment generally due to the foolish and uninformed way most DIY projects are concieved and executed. I have found from experience that if a customer put about a quarter of the time and effort they put into working on DIY projects into some overtime at their regular job and used the proceeds to pay a professional, they would come out way ahead financially, and get a better job. For do it yourselfers that are doing it for the pure joy of insulating or eating sheetrock dust, or the real pride of saying "I did that", it's a whole other equation, but from an economic perspective of a Gringo in a booming economy Do It Yourself solutions simply don't add up. [snip] Fred and GB listers: I am sorry if you thought I was implying anything about contractor mark-up. I built commercially in the 70s and know a little about that. My data are from a rather old report, (Owner-Built Housing, 1970, Organization for Social and Technological Innovation, Cambridge, MA). The organization no longer exists, but I have copies of the report and the lead author is a good friend living in Palo Alto. Frankly, I believe that in today's economic climate, the data would still hold up (with appropriate constant dollar conversions). In the late 60s, HUD contracted with a firm for which I worked to study self-help housing. At first, none of us believed what owner-builders were claiming about their savings. But we did a number of things that verified their claims. I myself subsequently started building, and the cost of my commercial built homes and the home I built for myself were very different. I wrote about some of the reasons on this list previously. Granted, time is a very necessary commodity for the owner builder. We found people like firemen, policemen, security guards, part-time lumber-yard workers, and many, many others who were owner-building. During the 60s, the Dept. of Commerce data suggested that 16 to 20% of all single-family dwellings in the U.S. were owner built. Owner-building was defined by the owner acting as their own general contractor and doing anywhere from zero to 100% of the work. The savings varied greatly, but 35% was not atypical in the Greater Boston area where a lot of our data were gathered. I personally saw owner-builders in California, building on vacation, weekends, and summer evenings, with help from friends and family, building for about 65% of commercial construction costs while I was actually building commercially myself. And the quality was generally pretty darn good. Most common flaws were in design. By the way, I do not advocate kits for owner builders, although at the time we thought it might be a good idea. We approached Sears to put interchangeable parts in the catalog, not kits. They had sold kits at the turn of the century, through the catalog. But they turned us down cold.. Enough said. Hal Levin ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 08:23:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA05651 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 08:23:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA12593; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 07:59:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 07:55:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA12327 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 07:55:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA12322 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 07:55:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.4.254.23] (uA3-p23.dreamscape.com [209.4.254.23]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA25163 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 08:06:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <98Sep3.110150bst.33896-2@netway.nhs.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 08:18:30 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: Re: [iaq] Classroom odours Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4329 Tony, It's a radical idea. Having grown up on television, I have some trouble distinguishing antisocial behavior from ordinary behavior. - Terry >From: tony.howl@safe.ce.msmail.lri-tr.trent.nhs.uk > >There is a simple way of dealing with this problem well known in the UK. > Give a verbal warning, followed by a second, followed by a written warning, >copy to parents. If this does not solve the problem, the students are >excluded from the classrom on grounds of antisocial behaviour. Is this not >possible across the water? > >Tony Howl > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or >service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit >http://www.onelist.com/advert.html for more information. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 08:44:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA05895 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 08:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13436; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 08:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 08:17:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA13075 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 08:16:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA13071 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 08:16:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.82] (pm2a10.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.202]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA14108 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 08:27:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 08:27:26 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: GBlist: Your Congress at work Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4330 This came across my computer this morning and I thought it worthy of a wider audience. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Buidling News Americans for Clean Energy * American Wind Energy Association Communications Consortium Media Center * Public Citizen * SUN DAY Campaign * Union of Concerned Scientists * 315 Circle Avenue, #2; Takoma Park, MD 20912 (301-270-2258; fax: 301-891-2866) IN A RENEWED ASSAULT ON THE ENVIRONMENT, CONGRESS SET TO APPROVE POLITICALLY MOTIVATED ATTACK ON RENEWABLE ENERGY TECHNOLOGIES For Immediate Release Contact: Ken Bossong 301-270-2258 September 3, 1998 Wendy Reed 202-383-2605 Washington, DC -- When it reconvenes next week, Congress is expected to act swiftly on a bill that includes numerous provisions designed to stifle the growth of the nation's renewable energy industries. A conference committee is set to iron out differences in the Fiscal Year 1999 (FY'99) Energy & Water appropriations bills earlier approved by the House and Senate. The conferenced bill and its accompanying report are expected to include numerous anti-renewables provisions designed to undermine the future development of solar, wind, geothermal, biomass, hydroelectric, and other sustainable energy technologies. ** It will likely stop the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) from effectively working with renewable energy and energy efficiency groups and trade associations by blocking funding for education and outreach efforts such as conferences, exhibitions, publications and electronic media, and technical assistance. As presently written, the language could be reasonably interpreted to impact potentially hundreds of current and future DOE contractors as well as several national laboratories. Already, the Solar Energy Industries Association has effectively closed down its information programs and fired a large portion of its employees as a result of this language. ** The bill will probably force the cancellation of some existing contracts with universities, laboratories, and industries, by directing nearly $50 million of FY'98 funds which are obligated under existing agreements but had not yet been spent, to fund FY'99 R&D. Already DOE is pulling back contracts and industry is backing out of projects feared to be in jeopardy. ** The bill may cut funding for renewable energy programs by as much as a one-third from the Administration's request of $372.3 million. The actual impact of the cuts will be greater because some of the appropriated funds will be earmarked for long-term research projects in DOE's Office of Energy Research which has historically failed to spend such funds. Moreover, funds will be counted as part of the renewable R&D budget even though they are actually allocated for non-renewable energy programs such as superconductivity and energy storage technologies. ** Another provision of the bill will further slash renewable energy funding even below appropriated levels by stipulating that all monies not spent within a given fiscal year will be defaulted even though current contracting procedures make it virtually impossible to spend funds in the year for which they are appropriated. The provision would also make more difficult the award of multi-year contracts with renewable industry firms. ** In light of restrictions on activities to implement the Kyoto climate change treaty without Congressional consent contained in other appropriations bills, the provisions of this bill will likely further discourage new renewable energy initiatives by DOE for fear that they will be viewed as "back-door" Kyoto strategies. "Cumulatively, the attack aimed at renewable energy and energy efficiency programs is merely the latest phase in the assault on the nation's environmental laws launched four years ago by certain congressional leaders," said Wenonah Hauter, Director of Public Citizen's Critical Mass Energy Project. "The bill must be seen for what it is: a politically motivated attack not only on DOE's core sustainable energy programs, but on the environmental infrastructure created in a bipartisan fashion over the past thirty years." "Notwithstanding the increasing frequency of severe weather events and eight consecutive months of the warmest temperatures ever recorded, Congress is attempting to pull the rug out from beneath renewable energy technologies -- one of the few available solutions to counter the threat of global climate change," said Ken Bossong, Executive Director of the SUN DAY Campaign. "Blind, ideological opposition to the Kyoto protocol has made many in Congress willing to lash out at anything even remotely associated with it regardless of the consequences for human health and the environment." Americans for Clean Energy, the American Wind Energy Association, Communications Consortium Media Center, Public Citizen, the SUN DAY Campaign, and the Union of Concerned Scientists warned that, left unchanged, the bill and its report language will not only stifle new technology development and the distribution of unbiased industry information but also cooperation between government, universities, industries and nonprofit organizations. Consequently, they are urging the members of Congress to fund DOE's renewable energy programs at the Administration's FY'99 requested level of $372.3 million. They are further urging that new Energy Secretary Bill Richardson help get his agency off on the right foot by working with the Congress and others in the Administration to delete the restrictive language from both the bill and committee report. # # # # ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 11:00:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08852 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19038; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:36:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:31:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18750 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:31:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18746 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:31:41 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 1AGUa16073 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:41:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33d5353e.35eeaa94@aol.com> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:41:24 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: No Subject Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4331 Jean, I hope I didn't question Barry and Mary-Ellen's intelligence. Like lot's of other folks with best intentions and little experience, I think they may have been and could again be taken advantage of by less than totally scrupulous folks. I wish folks with more experience were available to help me more often when I embark into areas I don't know enough about. I do want to thank you though for calling me on the tone of my posts and for the potential offense it did cause. In fact yu were right, and when I sent an apology to Barry and Mary-Ellen after reading your post, they acknowledged that they were offended. Trying to offer help to some folks that I was pretty clear I wouldn't be able to help as a builder, I ended up instead offending them. I felt that real information rather than a bunch of generalities would make it most easy for the rest of you to help out. Rereading my original posts, clearly I could have been more diplomatic. Along with this more public apology to Barry and Mary- Ellen, if in this process I offended anyone else on this list, I am sorry for that as well. Pretty wild experience trying to quickly and easily tap into many of the best thinkers in the building industry to help out some folks like this for free. An interesting experiment in the use of this list that I would hope others will do a better job with in the future. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 11:08:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09311 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19725; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:40:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19320 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:40:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19316 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:40:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust28.tnt2.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.31.28]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id JAA08140; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:50:59 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35EEAD9A.1DE1@gte.net> Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 10:54:18 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Wilson CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Your Congress at work References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4332 The press release Alex forwarded this morning about Congressional efforts to slash renewables funding must have pushed a very sensitive button. I immediately sat down and wrote the attached letter to my Congressmen. Some of you may find it useful in crafting your own comments. I haven't yet sent the letter so if you have a clincher you think I should include, please let me know. Cindy Dear Congressman : Having recently lived through the hottest month in Florida history and reading daily accounts of the devastation caused by droughts, floods, and wildfires around the world, I am convinced that we need to move strongly and forcefully to combat global warming. Energy efficiency measures, smarter transportation and land use planning, renewable energy technologies, and more equitable fiscal policies are our most effective tools. To my dismay, I see many members of Congress intent upon dismantling federal programs to make our economy more resource efficient and environmentally sound. Funding for the Center of Excellence for Sustainable Development in Colorado was recently eliminated. Meanwhile Japan, the European Union, China, and much of Latin America are strengthening efforts to make their own societies more resilient to long-term stress. Next week, the energy appropriations bill headed for conference committee would slash funding for renewable energy technologies. Reducing our dependence on fossil fuels is essential if we are to stabilize global climate, reduce air pollution, and regain autonomy in our energy sector. Improving energy efficiency is already cost effective in most applications. The General Services Administration’s recent adoption of the Planet GSA program is a ringing endorsement of both efficiency measures and alternative fuel vehicles. Wind energy has become cost effective in many locations in the United States. Turbines now dot the landscape in Denmark, Germany, the Netherlands, Spain, and India. Only the United States has retrenched. Solar space and water heating and electrical technologies are also becoming rapidly more efficient and cost effective. Indeed, the Million Solar Roofs program endorsed by the Administration, is intended to expand dramatically the adoption of solar technologies across the country. Please work to restore the full $372 million of renewables funding requested in the Administration’s FY ‘99 budget. And strike the language that would restrict multi-year contracts, public education, and widespread dissemination of the latest research findings. It is unfortunate that so many in Congress choose to turn a blind eye to the real threat of climate change and the economic, environmental, and social disruption that will result. Until the political will exists to ratify the Kyoto treaty, please ensure that the United States continues to strengthen its efforts to commercialize and adopt the technologies and strategies that will reduce our dependence on fossil fuels. Thank you. Sincerely, ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 11:14:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09644 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:14:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20155; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:50:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:46:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19843 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19839 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:46:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust28.tnt2.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.31.28]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id JAA10253; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:56:46 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35EEAEF5.3DD0@gte.net> Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 11:00:05 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Brennan CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: [iaq] Classroom odours References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4333 Terry, Tony, Would that it were possible to exclude kids with antisocial behavior from US classrooms. Unruly kids are probably the biggest obstacle my fourth grader and her teachers encounter on a daily basis. Cindy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 12:23:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10706 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:23:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23368; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:58:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:54:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23029 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:53:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23024 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:53:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 1AMJa16074 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:03:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <38e17152.35eebde6@aol.com> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:03:50 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Your Congress at work Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 214 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4334 Thanks Cindy for the push...good letter! I added some information regarding corporate support for energy efficiency, etc (through the Pew Center) and cost savings for the average homeowner. I noticed my dinosaur representative has a web site but deliberately NO EMAIL ADDRESS...impressive! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 12:25:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10771 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:25:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23691; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:01:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:58:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23333 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:57:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23322 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:57:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id LAA0000002692; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:08:19 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980903161106.006e2670@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 11:11:06 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Re: Owner builders Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4335 As one of them, I have to put my two cents in defending owner-builders. We've found that even though we may sometimes be three times slower than the professionals, and that we may not know right away how to do what-ever, that our care and attention to detail leaves a better built house than we would get had we left it entirely to those folks who do it for a living. Of course there are some exceptions and I truly admire the good people. But we can afford the time to do it right, to plug all the holes, make sure the lines are really plumb and in general do a frankly better job than do many in the trades. I've worked on the other side too and understand that no one could make any money if they 'attended' the way we do for ourselves. And we do save money too. Besides, it just plain fun to do. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 12:30:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10840 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:30:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24050; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:05:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:01:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23680 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:01:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nov.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23676 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:01:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.142] (p142.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.142]) by nov.diac.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA12678 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 16:12:42 GMT Message-Id: <199809031612.QAA12678@nov.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Domes Date: Thu, 3 Sep 98 10:17:01 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4336 Thanks for the very intelligent - as of late - discussion on domes. David Foley's comments are almost the same thing I would say to a potential dome client. But since I'm one of the few (fewer all along it seems) people to have built and lived in a geodesic dome, I can't resist making my own personal comments. Buckminster Fuller was right when he said domes use by far the fewest materials to enclose the most space - sort of. That's if one measures the actual materials used, and not the waste. Because of the wonderful nature of the domes structure - all elements are mostly compressive - huge spans are possible with relatively small structural members. From a structural point of view, domes are really fun to work with. But ... we live in a rectilinear construction world. As soon as a building isn't rectilinear, we start swimming upstream. This is very unfortunate, but in the commercial construction industry, most methods and materials are geared to squares, and when we go to any kind of circle (including domes), the time, waste, and cost instantly skyrockets. In a DIY situation, this is less true, because the DIY'er probably has more time than money, and might not know standard construction practices anyway, and so it won't take him/her any longer to fuss with a dome than to tilt up a 2x6 wall. I had one friend who built a large dome for a grand total of about $1,500. He and his family of 4 lived in it for three years (including Colorado winters). He bought the hardware kit, and everything else was salvaged. It was skinned with used newspaper printing sheets (this was back when we didn't talk about neighborhood property values). So, Mother Earth News wasn't entirely BS. For a more contemporary example, just a few years ago some friends saw one of the dome ads in a magazine. $55/SF. They decided to do it. After "a year of living hell" their double dome is complete, looks good, they really like it, and it cost $150/SF. Every board is custom cut, there is no mass production so to speak. As a carpenter, you really learn how to use a scribe and jig saw if you're finishing a dome. Regarding leakage, since a dome is one big roof, this is an issue. All windows and doors are like skylights. There is no question that manufacturers guarantee their products not to leak in these situations; there is also no doubt that the chance of a problem is much higher. All problems can be solved; in this case, one can always rip off all the roofing, whatever it may be, mask off the windows and doors, and spray the whole thing with urethane foam, then an elastomeric paint. It DEFINITELY won't leak then (for awhile). My personal conclusions are thus: 1. In reality, people do what they like, not what a spreadsheet says, which is certainly how it should be. If someone really likes domes, there is no deal-killer reason not to do it. There also aren't many objective reasons to do it. 2. Domes are terrific meditation, dancing, and group-function structures. Due to acoustics, solar control, and furnishings and fixtures problems, they are a difficult choice for a residence. 3. Almost all of our structural thinking, if we're actually doing any, is automatically of the "post (vertical) holds up the beam (horizontal)" strategy. Geodesic domes break out of that box, which is delightful. It also means anyone who builds a dome will have to be emotionally, financially and technically prepared to go against the grain. PS: There's also the "monolithic domes", which are made by spraying giant balloons with urethane and/or ferrocement. Another great idea with questionable residential application. Buzz Burrell Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 12:52:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA11204 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:52:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25648; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:29:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:25:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA25040 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:24:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ci.portland.or.us (pdxnet.ci.portland.or.us [207.109.34.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA25029 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:24:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linux1.bis.city (root@linux1.bis.city [10.80.1.15]) by ci.portland.or.us (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id JAA53370 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:36:13 -0700 Received: from issd1.bis.city (issd1.bis.city [10.80.1.16]) by linux1.bis.city (8.7.3/8.7.1) with SMTP id JAA09992 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:34:22 -0700 Received: from Portland-Message_Server by issd1.bis.city with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 03 Sep 1998 09:35:29 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 09:36:48 -0700 From: Curt Nichols To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Your Congress at work -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4337 While Congress is taking one approach, here's what the White House is doing.... Curt Curt Nichols Portland Energy Office _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Wednesday, September 2, 1998 THE CLINTON/GORE ADMINISTRATION: LIVABLE COMMUNITIES FOR THE 21ST CENTURY In the future, livable communities will be the basis for our competitiveness and economic strength. Vice President Al Gore September 2, 1998 Today, in a major policy address at the Brookings Institution in Washington, D.C., Vice President Al Gore highlighted successful efforts around the country to achieve smart, sustainable growth in cities, suburbs and rural areas, and announced new federal initiative to encourage similar efforts nationwide. In his travels around the country the Vice President will continue to draw attention to the issue of smarter growth in America, and along with members of the Cabinet, will hold a series of "listening sessions" this fall to hear how localities are grappling with sprawl and how the federal government can help. Local Strategies For Livable Communities. As our nation has grown and our cities have expanded into suburbs, the problems of sprawl have intensified. Cities that were once civic gathering areas have emptied out as development has expanded. Many communities are now employing "smart growth" or "sustainability" strategies that return communities into places where people work, learn, and worship together and families can walk, bike, and play together. These strategies are moving people closer to their jobs so they can get home and spend time with their children, restoring historic neighborhoods so they are revitalized and enjoyed by future generations, and preserving our natural resources. Giving Communities The Tools They Need To Succeed. As communities continue to transform themselves and adopt policies which offer more livable conditions, the Clinton Administration will continue to assist in these efforts. Today, the Vice President announced three new initiatives to help communities as we enter the 21st Century: Location Efficient Mortgages. The Vice President announced that Fannie Mae, in partnership with several non-profit groups, is launching a $100 million pilot project that will provide lower-cost mortgages and 30-year transit passes to families who buy homes near mass transit. These mortgages will give families more choices by enabling them to live in more desirable neighborhoods, while encouraging smarter growth; Computer Mapping Software. The Clinton Administration will offer grants that will enable communities to get and display federal information on an easy-to-understand computerized maps showing the scope of their community -- from parks to farmland and buildings -- that will make it dramatically easier to adopt sensible land growth policies; Protecting Our Farmland. The Vice President announced the final installment of a $35 million Farmland Protection Program established in the 1996 Farm Bill by awarding funds to 19 states to protect over 53,000 acres of our precious farmland. Building On A Record Of Success. Today's announcements build on the many other successful initiatives of the Clinton/Gore Administration, including: * Empowerment Zones and Enterprise Communities that are bringing in billions of dollars of private investment into America's cities; * The President's Council On Sustainable Development, which has worked to encourage better, more livable communities nationwide; and * The American Heritage Rivers Initiative, which rewards communities that restore rivers and waterfronts. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 13:03:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11346 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26428; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:39:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:36:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26094 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:35:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26089 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:35:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA20785; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 11:45:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va11-20.ix.netcom.com(207.223.177.212) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma020777; Thu Sep 3 11:44:42 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980903124247.006efcc4@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 12:42:50 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Air Core Heat Storage Update (draft paper) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4338 Air Core Passive/Hybrid Heat Storage: ------------------------------------- The draft of our ASME 21st Century Renewable Energy Systems (Maui Conference '99) paper is complete and out for peer review. While the final paper will be copyrighted by ASME, the draft is now available as an Adobe PDF file (307 kb). Get ASME draft paper PDF, Air Core Systems (click or cut & paste to browser): The figures are being redone, and currently are not hi-resolution, but they should still convey the message we hope. Comments are welcome. ---------- Get Free Acrobat reader: ---------- | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 13:09:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11423 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27010; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:46:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:42:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26629 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:42:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26619 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:42:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id JAA05565 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 09:52:36 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 3 Sep 1998 09:52:10 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: Domes, 35%, Unruly Kids To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA26623 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4339 Fred, As I told Mary-Ellen and Barry in a private note, I can be a hot head too. More often than not. But back to business. David Foley went rather systematically through the pro's and mostly con's, as he saw it, of domes. The mechanicals (plumbing, HVAC), especially, are likely far more problematical. The issue of form/function, and ease of change, seem moot to me. If you go through a model dome and it "feels" good for you, then cool. And "ease of change"? Who changes much of anything but paint and applian ces? Leakage, as always, is the big issue. I suggested they contact the dome builders they're working with and ask them to address the group. Hopefully to offer outside verification that they've solved the leak problem. Hal & Fred, Sounds like the 35% is getting used two ways. Hal says people can, on average, save 35% by being their own contractors--and I've seen that figure in a number of places myself. Fred is assuming you mean contractors MAKE 35% of the price of a home. I think, as Hal pointed out, the savings come in a number of ways unrelated to what a contractor personally realizes from a sale. Cindy, I've said at parties and other gatherings through the years, sometimes to people who look horrified, that we could save ourselves alot of grief if we'd let day care providers point out the really bad apples they see--kids who are seriously mean--and then we take these kids and give them a nice glass of hemlock-flavored kool aid. Most people know that I'm joking. Unfortunately. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 13:22:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12612 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:22:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27798; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:55:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA27520 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:55:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from airmail.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.20.220]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA27504 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 12:54:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from arb.ca.gov ([146.114.11.17]) by airmail.arb.ca.gov (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA67EC for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 10:00:48 -0700 Message-ID: <35EECCB5.511441D6@arb.ca.gov> Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 10:07:02 -0700 From: "Thomas J. Phillips" Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Subject: GBlist: basement exhaust fan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4340 FYI, I just received an electronic news item re: how to install a basement exhaust fan. This may be useful for other parts of the country where basements are common (in general, only pre-50's homes have basements in California). The article does not mention potential backdraft/combustion spillage problems with furnace or water heater in a basement. Best wishes, Tom Phillips =========== Project Mania An excellent in-between-seasons project is Installing a Basement Exhaust Fan to keep your basement fresh and odor-free. This http://www.housenet.com/hi/viewinframe.asp?idex=/global/projofweek/project22/pow_exfan.asp Project of the Week, sponsored by True Value, covers the basics of fan installation. An exhaust fan will provide positive air circulation and rid a damp basement of musty odors, chemical fumes, or air made dusty by woodworking, sanding, or other workshop projects. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 14:03:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13495 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA29881; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:39:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:35:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA29485 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:35:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29480 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:35:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TP441; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:53:43 -0400 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDD740.7DA0A240@Walnut.babb.com>; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:41:02 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDD740.7DA0A240@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: [iaq] Classroom odours Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 13:41:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA29481 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4341 GBlist has been so interesting and informative lately that I have been reading and soaking it all in rather than making any comments. However, I cannot resist this odd topic! When encountering unruly kids, I always wonder about their parents or other guardians... Perhaps they are the ones needing to drink the hemlock-flavoured kool-aide. Punishing the children without seeking the cause of the children's behavior will not solve the problem. Those punished kids probably won't understand their need to misbehave. Instead of changing, they might react to the punishment with more rebellion... They also are likely to have children of their own one day... and replay their parent's roles, creating more unruly children. Unless of course you believe in biological destiny. Best wishes, Jillanna ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 15:18:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14585 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 15:18:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03330; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:54:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:50:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03003 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:50:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02995 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA26182 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 14:00:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va8-55.ix.netcom.com(207.223.176.247) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma026124; Thu Sep 3 13:59:37 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980903145747.006e9690@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 14:57:50 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Scary Article (C) ABC Online Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4342 Are Americans becoming apathetic about environmental issues, again? Check out this article, appearing 3 Sept. 1998 via ABC News (C) online. ...too many SUV's purchased on credit... ---------------------------------------------------- Sample By Lee Dye: > It seems like only yesterday that millions of > Americans were swept up in an unprecedented effort > to save the planet. > Our skies were brown with smog, > our streams poisoned with chemicals > and wildlife was disappearing. People > who recognized something had to be > done swelled the ranks of environmental > organizations across the land. > But something’s happened since the > modern environmental movement began > about three decades ago. > A recent poll by the World Wildlife > Fund found that more than three out of > four Americans believe adequate steps > will not be taken to guarantee a healthy > environment for future generations. > No doubt cynicism plays a big role. > Americans seem to have little faith in > their government, corporations or even > themselves, to take the right steps. (more) --------------------------------------------------------------------- | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 18:40:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA24882 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:40:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14765; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:16:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:12:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA14456 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:12:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14448 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 18:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip05.ivnet.net [206.101.73.165]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17175; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 15:22:04 -0700 Message-ID: <35EF1581.5B7FE172@ivnet.net> Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 15:17:37 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Thomas CC: Mark and Alla Webster , Gregory Thomas <72477.2131@compuserve.com>, "[unknown]" Subject: Re: GBlist: hot water References: <199808291219_MC2-57C2-969D@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4343 Gregory Thomas wrote: > > Message text written by Mark and Alla Webster > >Our hot water heater appears to be gasping for its last breath. It's a > natural gas fired model, your typical dime-a-dozen heater. > > I would look at a high efficiency gas hot water heater. (90% instead of > 60% for standard.) I am not up on the models these days, but I suspect > that there may not be too much installed price difference between the > indirectly heated water storage tank and a high efficiency gas heater. > I just installed a Targa high-efficiency on-demand water heater on one of my projects. It's about 96% efficient and vents to the outside with 4" PVC pipe. Its a little noisy during operation, fine in the attic where it went, but would have been obnoxious in a kitchen. Fine unit. No standby heat loss, no pilot. Write-up in Environmental Building News and web page at www.targa.com. About $1000 my price. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma OR ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 21:06:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA26316 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 21:06:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA20659; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 20:43:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 20:39:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA20263 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 20:39:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA20252 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 20:39:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.142]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3874400 ; Thu, 03 Sep 1998 18:05:09 -0800 Message-ID: <35EF387A.D89E04D1@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 17:46:51 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mcshea1@gte.net CC: Terry Brennan , greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: [iaq] Classroom odours References: <35EEAEF5.3DD0@gte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4344 Terry, Tony, Cindy, Terry I couldn't find the origin to this thread and methinks it comes from another discussion group?? I'll contribute anyway because I'm sensitive to what remains of our childrens rights and freedoms. I remember reading a text a long time ago from England on education that looked at why and what the concept of failure was about. The text discussed the fact that most education systems focus on a level of achievement and accomplishment that is not universal and so from a VERY early point many children recieve a very clear message that they will not 'suceed' and so limit their participation and develop correspondingly antisocial responses to what is essentially a cruel limitation of their potential humanity. This is not the marketplace we are discussing and yet misplaced notions of value and commodity seem to even apply to our most basic resource. I don't think we have progressed far from the Dickens representation of Victorian views of childhood. If the original post was on IAQ and unruly behaviour I'm curious about the content and it reminds me of an earlier discussion about supplying air to children in schools that left me a little oxygen deprived about how economics impact our more critical choices. John Cindy Shea wrote: > Terry, Tony, > > Would that it were possible to exclude kids with antisocial behavior > from US classrooms. Unruly kids are probably the biggest obstacle my > fourth grader and her teachers encounter on a daily basis. > > Cindy > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 21:25:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA26490 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 21:25:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21519; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 21:02:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 20:58:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA21206 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 20:58:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA21201 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 20:58:11 -0400 (EDT) From: bmeltz@ix.netcom.com Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA10521; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 20:08:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 20:08:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from tnt-ma4-25.ix.netcom.com(207.94.228.89) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma010507; Thu Sep 3 20:07:46 1998 To: jean_gallagher@macgate.csuchico.edu To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-Id: <19989321926541@ix.netcom.com> Subject: Re: GBlist: Domes, 35%, Unruly Kids X-Mailer: NETCOMplete v3.27, from NETCOM On-Line Communications, Inc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4345 Fred, appology accepted. Let's not dwell on the past. As for domes, the mechanical systems are no real concern at all. How much of the plumbing, HVAC, electrical, etc goes on the exterior walls on a house in New England? We have been told that putting them there (especially plumbing) is a bad idea. The interior walls of a dome are built the same as in any other house, with the exception of where the wall meets the exterior of the dome. Here too, much has been made over little. We are not talking about actual curves (unless you are talking about monolithic domes, which we are not) but simple angles on the flat surfaces of triangles that are 6 - 8' on a side. This is also why some of the other items, like furnature placement, etc. are no brainers. We have been asked by several folks to publish here a list of what we see the advantages of domes being. We will probably do so at some point in the near future. We also hope to make our decision about the form of housing we will pursue over the next week or two. If anyone is interested, we could post that as well. Thanks, Mary-Ellen and Barry On 09/03/98 09:52:10 you wrote: > >Fred, > >As I told Mary-Ellen and Barry in a private note, I can be a hot head too. >More often than not. But back to business. > >David Foley went rather systematically through the pro's and mostly con's, as >he saw it, of domes. The mechanicals (plumbing, HVAC), especially, are likely >far more problematical. The issue of form/function, and ease of change, seem >moot to me. If you go through a model dome and it "feels" good for you, then >cool. And "ease of change"? Who changes much of anything but paint and applian >ces? > >Leakage, as always, is the big issue. I suggested they contact the dome >builders they're working with and ask them to address the group. Hopefully to >offer outside verification that they've solved the leak problem. > >Hal & Fred, > >Sounds like the 35% is getting used two ways. Hal says people can, on >average, save 35% by being their own contractors--and I've seen that figure >in a number of places myself. Fred is assuming you mean contractors MAKE 35% >of the price of a home. I think, as Hal pointed out, the savings come in a >number of ways unrelated to what a contractor personally realizes from a >sale. > >Cindy, > >I've said at parties and other gatherings through the years, sometimes to >people who look horrified, that we could save ourselves alot of grief if we'd >let day care providers point out the really bad apples they see--kids who are >seriously mean--and then we take these kids and give them a nice glass of >hemlock-flavored kool aid. > >Most people know that I'm joking. Unfortunately. > >Jean >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 3 22:52:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA27693 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:52:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24320; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:28:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:23:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA24088 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cc1.ccms.net (root@ccms.net [204.96.187.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24084 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:23:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ppp0.ccms.net [204.181.93.10]) by cc1.ccms.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA01405 for ; Thu, 3 Sep 1998 21:37:43 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980903093224.007c6930@mail.ccms.net> X-Sender: ldowney@mail.ccms.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 09:32:24 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Laura L. Downey" Subject: GBlist: green building costs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4346 Hello again, this is my second post to the list which I hope generates a few responses since my durisol vs. faswall one didn't generate any . . . ;-) am I completely out of my mind to believe that I can actually do some green building with straw bale or ICF's that won't cost me an arm and a leg? I am a reasonable person and I expect contractors to make a profit but the cost of green building is getting downright depressing. I live in Austin, TX and can't tell you how many times I have been told by architects and builders that absolutely nothing can be done for less than at *least* $100 a square foot. I'm trying to do something in the range of $70-75 a square foot which I think is reasonable. After all my dad just bought a house 30 minutes outside of Houston, nice neighborhood, around 2000 sq. ft for around $100K ($50/sq.ft.). So I tacked on another $20-25/sq. ft. thinking about the cost of green materials being somewhat higher and adjusting for the Austin market which by the way is absolutely booming. People have so much work they don't even call you back or refuse to even talk with you if you are not willing to cough up at *least* a $100/sq.ft. You know it used to be that building on your own land was a lot cheaper than buying in a subdivision. You really got more for your money -- a bigger more suitable house for the same price or less! than a subdivision house. But those days are totally gone unless you build at least an hour outside of the city. Also, between all the quotes I have gotten it is really hard to tell who is telling the truth and/or being honest. For instance in a recent article on Concrete Homes one builder said that it costs about $6K more! on a 4500 square foot house to go with concrete walls so any house over $300K is a no brainer and one should consider concrete. Well I don't know about amnyone else but normally things cost more (per sq. ft.), the less square footage you have, which means that most average people may not even be able to afford concrete walls. On the other hand the ICF organization claims that you can build with most ICF systems for about the same as conventional costs. And then there are books that state that building with straw bale and rammed earth can be much less expensive than conventional building. So woe is the common person who wants to build green but really doesn't have enough knowledge or resources to make the best decision. Maybe lifetime costs are less for green building but regular people need things that costs less up front like a $150K house not a $200K house. And of course a $150K house is out of reach of many too. Sorry for the frustrated tone but I have been researching things for over six months and many days I am very close to giving up building a "green" house with nice thick walls (16-18") and a rain water catch system. I have done everything I can to cut costs -- concrete floors, very simple one-story plan, loads of research into finding the least expensive windows, doors, lighting fixtures, plumbing fixtures etc. Maybe I just need a good margarita . . . :-) Laura ldowney@ccms.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 4 02:59:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA00733 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 02:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA02048; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 02:35:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Sep 1998 02:31:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA01788 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 02:31:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f247.hotmail.com [207.82.251.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA01784 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 02:31:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 23798 invoked by uid 0); 4 Sep 1998 06:41:48 -0000 Message-ID: <19980904064148.23797.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 208.11.36.109 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 03 Sep 1998 23:41:48 PDT X-Originating-IP: [208.11.36.109] From: "Susanne Machler" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Sources for Mylar!?? Content-Type: text/plain Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 23:41:48 PDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4347 Can anyone help me with sources of Mylar reflective Sheeting or the old 3M reflective film used in solar mirrors? Thanks much, you great people!! ;) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 4 04:10:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA01195 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 04:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA04203; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 03:43:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Sep 1998 03:39:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA03814 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 03:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from sal.awwwsome.com (sal.awwwsome.com [206.155.34.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA03806 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 03:39:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199809040739.DAA03806@solstice.crest.org> Received: from first ([206.155.34.59]) by sal.awwwsome.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-34763U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA1353; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 00:44:29 -0700 Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 23:54:31 -0400 From: Wil Maertens Organization: BioFab, LLC / Pacific Gold Board http://www.strawboard.com http://coffin.ricestraw.com http://www.ricestraw.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Susanne Machler CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Sources for Mylar!?? References: <19980904064148.23797.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4348 Susanne Machler wrote: > > Can anyone help me with sources of Mylar reflective Sheeting or the old > 3M reflective film used in solar mirrors? > > seems to me in that (mylar)industry they miss-call it foil. foil to me is aluminum. sarking from down under. Transfer Print Foils, Inc. A Holopak Tech.. Inc. Company http://hmt.com/holography/TPF/index.html hope this helps. Wil ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 4 08:42:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA03026 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 08:42:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10214; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 08:18:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Sep 1998 08:14:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09967 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 08:13:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09963 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 08:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.170] (rkd42.acadia.net [205.217.217.170]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA21046 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 08:24:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 08:24:02 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: FYI Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4349 JUST CALL IT GREEN SERVICES ADMINISTRATION The government agency responsible for managing the work environment of all federal employees is rolling out a nationwide initiative to protect the environment. The U.S. General Services Administration Planet GSA program aims to protect the environment by buying green, building green, driving green and saving green, said GSA Administrator David Barram. "We're partnering with the public and private sector to test new technologies and develop new strategies to protect the environment," said Barram. "We're doing away with the myth that protecting the environment is not good economics. GSA has shown that it is possible -- and makes good business sense -- to protect the environment and save money at the same time." "Planet GSA and other partnerships can help educate and inform employees and the general public about what the federal government is doing to combat climate change, and more importantly, empower them to take a personal part in protecting the environment," said Kathleen McGinty, chairman of the White House Council on Environmental Quality. In the spirit of Planet GSA, the government agency offers thousands of environmentally oriented products and services to help other federal agencies comply with environmental laws. Among those items offered are energy-efficient appliances and office products, as well as "Energy Star" computers and printers. Moreover, GSA offers paints, cleaners and other products that have been reformulated to be less environmentally detrimental. The agency also sells copy paper with no less than 20 percent post-consumer content and writing paper with a minimum of 50 percent post-consumer content. GSA, as well, manages a nationwide recycling program for 643,000 federal employees in 1,044 federal buildings. In fiscal year 1997, GSA collected and sold 41,260 tons of paper, aluminum cans, glass and packing materials. According to Barram, sales of this material generated $261,000 and GSA saved $3.8 million in trash removal fees and landfill charges. The agency's commitment to "building green" runs the spectrum from retrofitting historic buildings with energy-efficient lights to designing and building the federal courthouse in Denver, which GSA plans to use as a model for sustainable buildings in the future. Sustainable design means creating environmentally sound and resource-efficient buildings. It includes the site's accessibility to mass transit, pedestrian pathways and bicycle paths; landscaping with indigenous plants to minimize upkeep and dependence on water, herbicides and pesticides; and reducing waste generated during construction. GSA "drives green" with its use and procurement of alternative fuel vehicles and promotion of teleworking. AFVs run on ethanol, methanol, natural gas or electricity, thereby reducing dependence on foreign oil. AFVs also emit fewer greenhouse gasses and pollute less than conventional gasoline-powered vehicles. The Energy Policy Act of 1992 requires that, in 1998, 50 percent of the government's new vehicles in America's largest cities be AFVs. In 1999, the mandate will increase to 75 percent of new purchases. To conserve fuel and reduce air pollution, GSA promotes teleworking. GSA makes it easier for its employees to telework from home, from 18 telecommuting centers, or from wherever they happen to be with a computer and cellular phone. GSA "saves green" by overseeing an innovative energy and water management program that reduces utility costs, protects the environment and ensures quality workspace for clients. Since 1985, GSA has cut energy use in federal buildings by 17.1 percent. GSA estimates that its energy conservation measures in federal buildings have kept 130 billion pounds of carbon dioxide -- the equivalent of the carbon dioxide emitted from all the passenger cars in Los Angeles County over the past two years -- from entering the atmosphere. Source: Environmental News Network David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 4 09:43:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04653 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:43:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11979; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:19:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:15:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11677 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:14:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11673 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:14:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 1PDQa12640 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 09:24:50 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Owner builders Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4350 On Thu, 03 Sep 1998 11:11:06 -0500 Sacie Lambertson wrote: >>our care and attention to detail leaves a better built house than we would get had we left it entirely to those folks who do it for a living. Of course there are some exceptions and I truly admire the good people. But we can afford the time to do it right, to plug all the holes, make sure the lines are really plumb and in general do a frankly better job than do many in the trades.<< I guess as a professional I take great exception to this. Construction, like any other Profession, requires not just attention to details. All the attention to details in the world won't build a car that I would drive 60 MPH in. I feel that much of construction gets reduced to the idea that anybody can just pick up a hammer and build a house. Houses are complex and each is unique in it's own way. The solutions to the problems take years of experience and training. It's not all in the books by a long shot. That experience lets us build using fewer materials (less waste) and more appropriate materials better suited to the task. Greater attention to the details that are really important and result in a structure that lasts longer, needs fewer repairs, and less overall maintenance. Cabins in the woods are great to build for summer homes (with only rudimentary mechanicals), but year round buildings are complex buggers with lots of stuff hidden in walls that impact each other. Somehow the ideal of the "Craftsman" has been buried by the concept of DIY. In the long run, hiring a knowledgeable professional to do the work can be much more "Green" because of reduced maintenance, longer life span, greater energy efficiency, and greater attention to the important details. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave Assoc Contractors, Ithaca NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 4 11:02:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08417 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16499; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:38:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:34:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16010 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:34:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16006 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:34:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DNBEA7HR; Fri, 04 Sep 1998 10:44:55 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:45:50 -0700 Message-ID: <19980904.104550.6622.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,7-8,11,15-20 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4351 Laura, Excuse me for asking what is probably a stupid question but if you can buy a used house for $50/sqft, doesn't it make more sense to use the $25/sqft to rehab an older home rather than build a new "green" home, whether with straw bale or any other technique, and also preserve a previously undeveloped site? As one who practices what she preaches, I have wound up with an 60"s home that was less expensive to buy, better built that the newer stuff, solid with big 30' trees that shade us while the new stuff is already falling apart, and is surrounded by a big lawn with a few leafy "twigs". Most changes we made were primarily cosmetic - only major changes were windows, extra fans, extra insulation more efficient lighting and some xeriscaping. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 4 11:45:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09072 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:45:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19579; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:21:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:18:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18973 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:17:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nov.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18964 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:17:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.171] (p171.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.171]) by nov.diac.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA08229 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 15:28:54 GMT Message-Id: <199809041528.PAA08229@nov.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding costs Date: Fri, 4 Sep 98 09:28:23 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4352 On 9/4/98 12:00 AM Laura wrote (in part): >Hello again, >am I completely out of my mind to believe that I can actually >do some green building with straw bale or ICF's that won't >cost me an arm and a leg? I am a reasonable person and I >expect contractors to make a profit but the cost of green >building is getting downright depressing. > >I live in Austin, TX and can't tell you how many times I have >been told by architects and builders that absolutely nothing >can be done for less than at *least* $100 a square foot. I'm >trying to do something in the range of $70-75 a square foot >which I think is reasonable. After all my dad just bought >a house 30 minutes outside of Houston, nice neighborhood, >around 2000 sq. ft for around $100K ($50/sq.ft.). So I tacked >on another $20-25/sq. ft. thinking about the cost of green >materials being somewhat higher and adjusting for the Austin >market which by the way is absolutely booming. People have >so much work they don't even call you back or refuse to even >talk with you if you are not willing to cough up at *least* >a $100/sq.ft. >Also, between all the quotes I have gotten it is really hard >to tell who is telling the truth and/or being honest. It is reasonable to be confused. Who isn't? And how does one define "reasonable cost"? A few years ago I built a spec house (compressed earth block) and thoroughly documented ALL the costs. It came to a total of $53.12/SF - including house, all soft costs, infrastructure, and the 1 acre of south facing with a view irrigated land it was on! For the group of people I'm working with now, I've told them they can't build for less than $150/SF - hard costs only! Which is correct? All of the above. It depends, it depends ... on so many things; you probably didn't get a response to your original post because costs depend on so many variables, one can't take the time to list them all. Sorry. Suffice to say, some intrepid DIY'ers and a very few dedicated builders are still doing remarkably inexpensive greenbuilding projects. Meanwhile in the rest of America, business is booming, costs are way up, owner expectations are even more way up, codes restrict the possibilities, it's hard to make a living building inexpensive houses, and so, up we go. (Personally, I've considered selling everything and buying an RV). Keep researching, you'll do fine. Sorry to sound so lame, but the subject of greenbuilding costs is so vast, a couple of real examples and a stupid platitude is the best I can offer. Buzz Burrell Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 4 11:53:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09189 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:53:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20091; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:25:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA19766 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:25:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19762 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (tigris54.pei.sympatico.ca [207.34.28.54]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA29156 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:35:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35F00ABA.38C5@pei.sympatico.ca> Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 12:43:54 -0300 From: Phil Ferraro Reply-To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: New vs. Old References: <19980904.104550.6622.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4353 Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > Excuse me for asking what is probably a stupid question but if you can > buy a used > house for $50/sqft, doesn't it make more sense to use the $25/sqft to > rehab an older home rather than build a new "green" home, whether with > straw bale or any other technique, and also preserve a previously > undeveloped site? My thoughts exactly. I am curious however about the prices being quoted. In PEI where housing is cheap and materials tend to be expensive builders are telling me that it is cheaper to build a new house than to by an old one of the same style and comfort level. -- Phil Ferraro, Executive Director, P.E.I. ADAPT Council c/o The Farm Centre, 420 University Avenue, Room 103 Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island Canada C1A 7Z5 Phone: (902) 368-2005 Fax: (902) 368-2520 (phone first) Email: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 4 11:57:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09304 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:57:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20417; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:33:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:29:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA20046 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:29:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20037; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:29:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA14581; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 10:39:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va14-10.ix.netcom.com(207.223.178.202) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma014501; Fri Sep 4 10:38:38 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980904113649.006f05b4@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 11:36:53 -0400 To: ee-building@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: CMHC Research Highlights / Update Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4354 Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 22:20:14 -0400 Research Highlights CMHC Innovation Centre for Highrise and Multiples ======================================================================= Respond to: "Jacques F Rousseau" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To keep you up to date and informed on our new research reports, that are available, the CMHC Innovation Centre for Highrise and Multiples has developed Research Highlights on completed research projects. The Highlights are written in an easy-to-read newsletter format. Six are already up on the site and a new highlight will be added every week. You may wish to 'bookmark' the webpage. The following Highlights are up on the site: 96-212 Results of Fire Resistance Tests on Small-Scale Insulated and Non-Insulated Gypsum Board Protected Wall Assemblies 96-211 Performance of Brick Veneer/Steel Stud Wall Systems Subject to Temperature, Air Pressure and Vapour Pressure Differentials 96-210 Multi-Unit Residential Buildings - An Operating Manual for Maintenance and Custodial Staff 96-209 The Zero-Cavity and DPV Wall Project 96-208 An Exploratory Study of the Climatic Relationships Between Rain and Wind 96-207 A Study of Mean Pressure Gradients, Mean Cavity Pressures, and Resulting Residual Mean Pressures Across a Rainscreen for a Representative Building To view these Highlights click on the following link: -- (available in French and English) -- Jacques Rousseau, Manager CMHC Innovation Centre for Highrise and Multiples ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Comment: link font color was very difficult to read when I visited site... ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- (posted by Bion Howard ) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 4 12:34:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09814 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:34:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22665; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:06:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22063 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:06:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22043 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 12:06:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA20151; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 11:16:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va14-10.ix.netcom.com(207.223.178.202) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma019976; Fri Sep 4 11:15:26 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980904121338.006f0820@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 12:13:40 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Building On Line - Netforum / Environmental Products Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4355 Green Building List Denizens -- [ Building On Line - Netforum / Environmental Products ] Found this an interesting and relatively unused possibility. Better threading possibilities than most e-mail list management programs. Check it out, and maybe see you there: | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 4 14:42:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13198 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 14:42:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29167; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 14:18:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Sep 1998 14:13:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28631 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 14:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28627 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 14:13:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA06428 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 13:23:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va14-10.ix.netcom.com(207.223.178.202) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma006358; Fri Sep 4 13:22:51 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980904142104.006f2c60@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 14:21:06 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: basement fans issue (:*o') Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4356 Basement Fans Issue Sheesh, this potential "mess" needs to be addressed to building code departments, not only due to Tom's correct concern (especially with larger fan sizes, in small "tight" basements) but in regard to unwittingly creating differential pressures that could increase: * overall moisture levels on the "pathway" of air leakage (despite claim of "dryer air" in the basement as a whole) * dP driven soil gas transfer including Radon, termiticides, viral particles, bacillus, mold spores, etc. out of soils near foundation wall * rates of framing deterioration around rim-joists, if moisture levels in block or concrete basement walls rise... * probably missed some others,,, Very concerned, <> Bion --------- thread -------- Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 10:07:02 -0700 From: "Thomas J. Phillips" Subject: GBlist: basement exhaust fan FYI, I just received an electronic news item re: how to install a basement exhaust fan. This may be useful for other parts of the country where basements are common (in general, only pre-50's homes have basements in California). The article does not mention potential backdraft/combustion spillage problems with furnace or water heater in a basement. Best wishes, Tom Phillips =========== Project Mania An excellent in-between-seasons project is Installing a Basement Exhaust Fan to keep your basement fresh and odor-free. This Project of the Week, sponsored by True Value, covers the basics of fan installation. An exhaust fan will provide positive air circulation and rid a damp basement of musty odors, chemical fumes, or air made dusty by woodworking, sanding, or other workshop projects. ---------------------------------------------------- | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 4 15:35:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13908 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 15:35:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02146; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 15:12:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Sep 1998 15:08:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01640 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 15:07:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01636 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 15:07:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DNBVXSY5; Fri, 04 Sep 1998 15:18:19 EDT To: hardwick@ordinary.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 15:18:37 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Re: Trees, Ma'am Message-ID: <19980904.151915.6622.4.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-8 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4357 Hi JH Thanks for the invite - I would love to see your trees. Only one problem, you didn't say where "here" is. It's a big world. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 4 17:44:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15518 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:44:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08368; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:16:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA08017 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:16:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08012 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 17:16:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eliel (ip84.an1-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.12.84]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA29122 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 14:26:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199809042126.OAA29122@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Sender: greenbergman@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 17:19:39 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: David Bergman Subject: GBlist: fiberglass panels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4358 I'm interested in finding out the environmental (or anti-environmental) properties of fiberglass panels -- the ones that look sort of like shoji screen material, but heavier. Are there better types or sources? Or alternatives? Thank you, David Bergman David Bergman Architects/Fire & Water Lighting bergman@cyberg.com http://cyberg.com T 212 475 3106 F 212 677 7291 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 4 21:19:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17229 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 21:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA17167; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 20:55:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Sep 1998 20:51:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA16974 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 20:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA16970 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 20:51:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust147.tnt7.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.20.147]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA00654 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 1998 18:02:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35F08CB8.5E3E@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 17:58:32 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: green building costs] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4359 > Laura L. Downey wrote: > > > > > > I live in Austin, TX and can't tell you how many times I have > > been told by architects and builders that absolutely nothing > > can be done for less than at *least* $100 a square foot. I'm > > trying to do something in the range of $70-75 a square foot > > which I think is reasonable. After all my dad just bought > > a house 30 minutes outside of Houston, nice neighborhood, > > around 2000 sq. ft for around $100K ($50/sq.ft.). So I tacked > > on another $20-25/sq. ft. thinking about the cost of green > > materials being somewhat higher and adjusting for the Austin > > market which by the way is absolutely booming. People have > > so much work they don't even call you back or refuse to even > > talk with you if you are not willing to cough up at *least* > > a $100/sq.ft. > > > > You know it used to be that building on your own land was a lot > > cheaper than buying in a subdivision. You really got more > > for your money -- a bigger more suitable house for the same > > price or less! than a subdivision house. But those days are > > totally gone unless you build at least an hour outside of the > > city. > > Laura: > > I am one of those builders who quotes big high prices. > > Here in the Easy Bay (San Francisco area) you cannot get a custom home > built for anything less than $150/sf, and it is very easy to hit $200. > I've done it myself, and it isn't by paying outrageous wages and > profits. (I have heard of a few tract projects an hour outside the Bay > Area where houses are being built for $80/sf. Pretty radical stuff for > our area.) Part of it comes from the difficult soils and structural > engineering in our area, but it is from careful consideration of each > detail. > > Your frustrated letter brings up plenty of issues, more than I can > address, but here are a few...don't be fooled by your Dad's suburban > prices...those houses are probably whammed together in mass-production > fashion. It's is not simply a matter of adding a certain cost per square > foot for "green building". It is a total apples and oranges situation. > Tract carpenters and tradespaople don't have to think about what they > are doing each step of the way. I don't believe there is much creativity > in the work, and in the end there is little life in the houses either, > not to mention the communities. > > If you think about the word "green" it implies life and spirit. It > implies organic and non-linear. It refers to the interconnected web of > life. There are many more connotations and submeanings and dilutions of > the word, but just for now, follow this thought. Life does not follow > formulae and at its heart neither does "green building". Our economic > system does, and therein lies a huge conflict. Do you want to build in a > considered, creative way? Do you want to build something that feels > alive? Do you want to explore alternative materials and processes? It > takes time, lots of it. And we all know what time equals, in our > economic system. > > I wish could push a magic button and make alternative building systems > inexpensive and affordable. I am afraid that all too many kit and > alternatives-promoters tell people that it can be done. > > Seth Melchert > Master Builders > Oakland ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 5 09:21:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21900 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 09:21:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01548; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 08:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 5 Sep 1998 08:51:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01334 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 08:50:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cc1.ccms.net (root@ccms.net [204.96.187.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01329 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 08:50:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ppp32.ccms.net [204.181.93.42]) by cc1.ccms.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA07545 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 08:05:10 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980904195925.007b3e00@mail.ccms.net> X-Sender: ldowney@mail.ccms.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 19:59:25 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Laura L. Downey" Subject: GBlist: greenbuilding costs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4360 Hi all, First let me answer Beverly's question (which BTW, IMHO, there is no such thing as a stupid question). Beverly you raise a good point about buying an existing affordable house then doing things to it to fix it up and make it green -- and I have thought of that but . . . I have 2-1/4 beautiful acres that I want to build on and I am trying to be as green as possible and in harmony with the natural surroundings etc. And just as a side note, the $50/sq. ft. house I mentioned was a *brand new* one not an old one. That just emphasizes even more the wide range of housing prices here in Texas. Another poster mentioned a price of $150 sq. ft. in San Francisco which in some ways depressed me even more because San Fran is one of the most expensive markets in the US so if it is at $150-200 sq.ft. then TX should be considerably less. I lived in Texas the first 25 years of my life, then DC for 10 years and now I am back home again. Things used to be so affordable here -- I built a house in 1977 on a 1/2 acre lot. We used Superior as the builder - a standard build on your lot organization -- and I paid $36,000 for a 1500 sq ft. house ($24 sq. ft.) I would estimate that in today's prices the same house would probably be at least $85K and I am probably being generous here. If I use the $100 sq. ft price then we are talking $150K for a pretty small house. I also want to mention some calculations I did off the web site www.ccpc-texas.org (lots of ICF info for TX). I figured the cost per sq. ft. for all the projects they have listed and I must say I am probably more confused and suspicious than ever. The range was from around $45 sq.ft. to over $180 sq.ft. Now I realize there are a lot of variables and differing material and labor costs but really as a consumer I have to question this gigantic spread. There were some contractor built homes that were even less than $45 sq. ft. so if contractors can save that much doing their own house then exactly how much are they charging the consumer? Again I want to emphasize that I know there are fair and legit contractors out there and I completely support people making a profit in their chosen field; but let's take a hypothetical look at a $45 square foot house and allow for a 33-1/3% markup which makes the house $60 sq.ft. I could easily live with that . . . :-) Thanks to all for the comments, suggestions, "hang in there's" and commiserations. They are all appreciated. Laura ldowney@ccms.net p.s. after I wrote this posting - I actually talked with a couple of builders off the ICF list who are in my area and one is a very strong possibility. So I'm off to check references etc. Have a great weekend everyone! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 5 10:18:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22254 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:18:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02981; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 09:54:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 5 Sep 1998 09:50:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02608 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 09:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199809051350.JAA02608@solstice.crest.org> Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 01:00:39 -0600 From: djohnson@naturalspacesdomes.com (Dennis Johnson) Organization: Natural Spaces Domes To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Dome Answers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4361 Well.... I guess I'm going to jump right into the fire with both feet. Fred labeled me the "salesman in the dome kit business that has convinced Barry all the inherent problems with domes........have been solved." Actually, I'm the co-owner of the dome company and I AM convinced the "inherent problems with domes" have been solved. Part of the "inherent" problems were Lloyd Kahn's and Stewart Brand's failures to understand where they went wrong with their dome building techniques and their inability or unwillingness to solve their dome failures back in the 60's and early 70's. I don't believe that I have made "fundamental changes in the laws of physics to change most of those problems" as has been put forth. I've simply had a willingness to look at any building problem, investigate what was happening, look for answers by reading or talking with others in the building industry and come up with rational solutions. I've been designing, manufacturing and building domes since 1972. Prior to that, I worked for a creative architect for 10 years designing all types of buildings but favoring residential architecture. I was unaware of this list group until the dome controversy erupted. I can see by reading the postings that there is a lot of intelligent and impassionate discussion on building technology and the creation of environmentally sound human spaces. Practical building information and discussion is hard to find. I think I'll stick around for awhile. David Foley tries to tell us to "beware (of domes), that they are notoriously hard to leakproof, roof, side, furnish and sell to somone else later". As a starter, I own, live and work in 6 different domes. The oldest one was built in 1975 and has served well as an ever-changing, ever-evolving, charming, enjoyable home. They are all shingled with laminated/dimensional asphalt shingles (Bird Acrhitect 80, Tamko Heritage, GAF Timberline 25, 30 and Timberline Ultra 40). None of my domes leak. Need a good test to back up that statement? How about Hurricanes Bertha and Bonnie? We own a newly completed (July 11) 3500 sf dome with extensions and connecting conventional roofs. We found out the day after Hurricane Bonnie went over it, that besides having absolutely no water inside, not a shingle was broken or missing. The dome has 4 floors with the top cupola 50' above sea level. Not your basic low level, ground hugging structure. Pictures can be seen cy clicking http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Arena/2438/finishedext.html Hard to roof? I'm not going to say they are a piece of cake like a 4/12 pitch roof on a rambler. We shingle them triangle by triangle. The point down triangles have shingles that overlap the point up triangles by 5 to 6 inches. That overlap is nailed and stops the wind from lifting the shingle edge. We use 30 pound (15 pound where appropriate) roofing felt along with Ice and Water Shield and/or metal valley flashing. Most domes are roofed from ladders. An average size dome takes a small roofing crew approx 5 to 7 days to roof. An average dome roof has 30 to 35 squares. Much more roof and less siding than box houses. Do you have to work hard to keep our domes from leaking? My house dome was reshingled in 1984. It has a cupola, dormer, 20 skylights and several intersecting roofs. I had a small leak about a month ago. Upon investigating, I had to spend 5 to 10 minutes brushing away the leaves and pine needles from around a few skylights. My life does not revolve around my roof and its repair and upkeep. Hard to side? The majority of the siding is within 8' to 10' of the ground. Our dome in North Carolina was sided with ABTCO Fiber Cement siding because of the humid conditions. The siding subcontractor was hired locally. His price was the same per sq. ft. price he charged for box housing (based on the type of siding and percentage of trim). He used his pump jacks and he had no problems. He will be doing our next project there. Dave says that the plumbing and electrical systems are made "harder" in a dome (I think he means to install). Again, our dome in NC is a good recent example. The plumbers bid was one of three and seemed in line with typical plumbing costs. All of the plumbing components were installed normally. The HVAC bid was $1100/ ton of AC. This was his standard bid for box housing. Because our domes are super-insulated and the windows/skylights were Solargray tinted along with Low E coated/Argon, the AC size was reduced from the standard local norm. We ended up with 5 tons total cooling - the norm there for this size house was 8 to 10 tons. This is also a summer rental property so we took that into account. The smaller size reduced the initial capital costs. My 2700 sf dome in Minnesota has a 3/4 ton AC unit that cools the whole house (actually, it's for humidity control) The electrician actually found it easier to install any wiring around the dome shell because he didn't have to drill any holes thru a hundred studs. His price was based on a per outlet/switch basis and ended up at approx $1.55/sf. Dave seems to think we "have to squeeze our lives into a predetermined structural shape". Maybe you don't consider the box to be a "predetermined structural shape" ? In designing the dome in NC, the real constraints were the site size, view, sun orientation, wind patterns (hurricanes), etc. I had my choice of any size circle I wanted along with any type and shape of rectilinear extensions. I design custom domes and I feel no more constrained than when I HAD to design using boxes or their derivatives. Is a dome space "always subtly wrong, at odds with your deep needs, forcing you into patterns you don't like"? My son has lived in a dome from day one (he even had a Creative Playthings hexagonal crib). He is 22 and trying to find out what he wants to do (along with most of his generation). He seems more "adjusted" than many of his box-raised friends. He is out of our dome but has his plans drawn for his future dome home. A well designed dome space has a calming, comfortable feeling - that's the often heard comment from hundreds of our dome inhabitants. We do say that our dome system is state-of-the-art. We use a double wall construction allowing us to offer 15", 18" and 21" thick dome shells with R-values of 44, 55 and 66. We have a totally ventilated roof system (between the exterior sheathing and the insulation), employing natural air flow, not fans. We take steps to eliminate "wind wash" on fiberglass insulation. We most often use 72" and 96" wide unfaced fiberglass insulation, allowing for one- piece triangles. We have used Icynene and other blown-in systems. We are studying their use in our domes - probably cautious because of our involve- ment in trying urea-formeldehyde foams in the 70's. We use vapor barriers with all seams overlapped and taped with 3M 8086. The vapor barrier is run continuous, tucking and folding as it goes around the dome, to minimize seams. We do claim our domes will use less heating and cooling on a comparable basis with box housing. We have many domes in Minnesota with heating costs in a range of $110-$130 per year (1800 sf) and $300-$350 per year (3200sf). Our exterior sheathing is 3/4" plywood, allowing us to eliminate almost all internal bracing in our exterior triangles. This saves about 2500 - 2800 lin ft of dimensional lumber in our average dome frame. We take our scrap 3/4" plywood and make gussets to connect our high grade SYP exterior 2 x6 strut (cut from southern pine plantations) to our low grade 2 x 4 inner strut. The wall and roof structure for one of our 2 story domes enclosing 1800 to 1900 sf of floor space, requires 165 pieces of 2x6 and 2x4, the longest of which is 8'. We are constantly studying and improving the resource efficiency of our domes. For those of you still reading this, let's talk about cost. We require our clients to deal with an 11 page itemized budget based on their particular plan. We assign material and labor costs to EVERY single item that goes into the building of their home - not just what we provde as a kit dome manufacturer. Sticker shock usually sets in about this time. IF our dome was 50% or even 33% cheaper than comparable custom housing, a lot of you builders on this list would be building domes because of the client demand. In reality, a particular dome plan may be cheaper than a comparable custom box house because of the pre-cut dome kit. As has been stated, that is only a part of the home's total cost. We don't make undocumented price claims. Any good builder has to be able to define what and where are his costs. We do this on each dome. We all know there are different ways to figure sq ft costs. If you take the total gross built sf, an average for one of our domes, complete, contractor built would range from $60 to $85 per sq ft. If you take the so-called "living" area alone without the unfinished or semi-finished area, our average dome, complete, contractor built would range from $75 to $100 per sq ft. Two years ago, one of our clients near Boulder, CO., contracted out their double dome. They finished virtually all of its 4800 sf. Their final building cost was $355,000. $74/sf . We have done many smaller projects and we work with many owner-builders. Costs are inherently based on the "details" of the building. They are very hard to standardize, average and compare. We have been involved with over 1000 domes since we started 26 years ago. We have a nice steady dome kit housing business. We rely on being able to refer potential clients to our previous clients. It is too bad the couple that started all this discussion on this list may not be able to build their dome because many people they have to deal with in the building process hold on to ill-conceived, out-dated semi-information. Domes are but one of the "alternative" homes available to the consumer. It's a niche market. It is not going to replace every other style or type of house. Our dome system has made great strides in its "coming-of-age". This list is for the discussion of green building systems, techniques and materials. I put forth that the dome is but one other viable shape which can be used to create a "greener" America. I've gone on too long but I had some things I wanted to say. I probably used up a couple of weeks worth of my 5 inches per week list limit. Thanks for the opportunity to join in. Dennis Odin Johnson Natural Spaces Domes North Branch, MN 800-733-7107 http://www.naturalspacesdomes.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 5 10:18:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22260 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:18:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02999; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 09:54:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 5 Sep 1998 09:51:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02636 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 09:50:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199809051350.JAA02636@solstice.crest.org> Date: Thu, 3 Sep 1998 19:05:21 -0500 (CDT) To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: C Neurath Subject: GBlist: alternatives to PVC when doing electrical wiring Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4362 I'm cross-posting my response to the below question to the greenbuilding list because I think it is a relevant topic which has not been discussed much recently on the list: the inherent environmental problems of PVC (polyvinylchloride), and alternatives to it's use. For anyone who is interested in the environmental debates about PVC, the dioxin list is an excellent resource. To view archives or subscribe contact: listproc@essential.org or http://www.essential.org/listproc/lists.html The basic idea is that the manufacture of PVC releases dioxin and other very toxic chemicals. Toxic additives like lead, cadmium, and phthalates are often added to PVC. During use, PVC may release some of these additives. And finally, if PVC is ever involved in a fire, or purposely incinerated, it is likely to release dioxin. I'd be interested to know what other greenbuilding list members who work with wiring or plumbing (or windows or siding or any of the other PVC haunts) have to say about it as a material and about alternatives. >Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 00:43:20 -0400 >From: Mike Ewall >To: dioxin-l@essential.org >Subject: Alternatives to PVC piping and coated wire? > >I'm working on fixing up a home which has inadequate electrical wiring. >Does anyone know if there are sources of electrical wiring and outdoor >electrical conduit which don't have PVC, but which still meet the National >Electric Code? I need something that would be National Fire Protection >Association (NFPA)-approved. > >Mike Ewall >Pennsylvania Environmental Network >http://www.penweb.org > >Student Environmental Action Coalition >http://www.seac.org Mike, I've just finished wiring an addition to my own home and one of my prime goals was to minimize PVC use. It was actually quite easy. "Alternative" materials were more expensive but are probably higher quality and labor was perhaps less than for PVC. The wiring methods I used are actually standard for any non-single-family-home electrical service. I totally avoided PVC jacketed NM and UF cable and substituted MC flexible galvanized steel jacketed cable. The wires inside the jacket are PVC insulated, but I would say the amount of PVC in the individual wire insulation is only about 1/4 the amount used in the PVC jacket. Trying to find non-PVC insulation would be difficult. There is cross-linked polyethylene XP and more exotic insulations like teflon or silicone, but I doubt any of these would be easily obtained, especially inside an MC metal jacket. You can also get the flexible metal jacket ("Greenfield") without any wires in it, and pull your own wires through it, so that would be the way to go if you absolutely wanted to eliminate PVC. I've used XP insulated wires in other situations and it seems like a very tough insulation, and is probably rated as high as most PVC in terms of heat resistance and water resistance. I don't know what types of additives XP contains. The metal jacketed cable will fish through walls as easily as NM and because of the metal armor, it can be used in areas more subject to abuse. If you do decide to use it, I would recommend buying a special cutter for about $30 which will make your job a lot faster and easier than trying to cut it with a hack saw. For straight runs, or for neater exposed wiring, thin wall galvanized steel conduit, EMT, is cheap and easy to use and when used with the compression style fittings is considered rain-tight so it can be used in exposed locations. It only costs a little more than equivalent PVC rigid conduit. If you need flexible conduit that is suitable for outdoor use then you might have a problem finding materials that don't use a lot of PVC. "Liquidtight" flexible conduit is either all PVC or a flexible metal covered with PVC as far as I can tell. It's a little harder to design a system that uses only EMT for outdoor use, but it can usually be done. You might need to get an EMT bender. The only situation where you absolutely need a flexible conduit that I can think of is if you have something that vibrates a lot or needs to move, yet remain electrically connected. Most normal wiring doesn't have these problems. Electricians often seem to use the liquidtight stuff because it is very easy to use, not because it is cheap or better than rigid conduit. With the flexible metal jacketted cable or EMT conduit all boxes will also be galvanized steel (or aluminum for outdoor use), so you automatically eliminate the use of PVC boxes. As far as meeting NEC, I am not a licensed electrician but I have researched the NEC and I have talked to licensed electricians and all the above materials can not only meet code, but they are generally considered to meet the more stringent code requirements for commercial or multi-family buildings. Talk to any electrician and they can set you straight on all this stuff as they use it every day. Oh, and this topic reminds me of a point that was made at one of the Citizens Dioxin Conferences by a representative from the plumber's union: They didn't like working with PVC pipe because the fumes from the glue are so toxic. On a job site, by the end of the day, he said all the workers were "high" from the solvent fumes. I can attest to the nastiness of the glues. My recent electrical work was much more pleasant because I avoided PVC conduit and the glue that goes with it. In the larger picture, there have been reports that steel recycling mills can be very high emitters of dioxin, I think because they use feed material that is contaminated with PVC or chlorinated cutting oils or some such. I'm not aware of whether anyone has looked into how much dioxin is released on average when making steel. I doubt it would be as much as is released when making PVC, but it just goes to show you that everything we humans do is likely to have negative impacts somewhere. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 5 10:33:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22316 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:33:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03470; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:06:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:02:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03218 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:01:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03211 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:01:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcoplos@aol.com Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id DSOSa26914; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:10:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33231b4.35f14663@aol.com> Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:10:43 EDT To: ldowney@ccms.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: greenbuilding costs Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4363 One aspect of the economics of construction that has not been acknowledeged is the large amount of money generated for insurance companies and the government by the activity of contractor's. When people ask for a price break, I often tell them I will match any price break they can negotiate with the insurance companies, the material suppliers, and the governments. If you build a house yourself, without utilizing many tradespeople, you are saving an enormous amount of money by not paying insurance premiums and various taxes. I think the low margins in the construction industry can be greatly attributed to insurance and governmental costs (also add in here the extra office work to handle all this stuff). If these costs wren't so high, more people could afford to invest a littler more in green features for their homes. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 5 12:01:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA22880 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:01:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06174; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 11:37:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 5 Sep 1998 11:33:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05925 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 11:32:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05921 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 11:32:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.topher.net (ppp06.topher.net [206.136.138.165]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA13643; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:27:36 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199809051527.KAA13643@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: Cc: "greenbuilder" Subject: GBlist: Re: green building costs Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 10:45:04 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4364 You can keep your costs down, but be prepared to: 1)do plenty of research, 2)develop an excellent set of plans, 3)interview many, many builders to find one who understands what you are talking about. I built a few hundred miles up I-35 from you, just north of Dallas. You would think in a metro area as large as Dallas - Fort Worth you could find plenty of knowledgeble contractors. WRONG. There are some, but it took a while to find them. I spent a couple of years doing the plans and they were very detailed which virtually eliminated any costs for changes once we started building. It allowed me to multi bid items until I felt I found a good value. The shell is only a part of the costs. I spent about $75/SF for the whole house, but the shell made up about $11/SF of that number. I looked at domes, monolithic domes, ICF, steel, 2x6 sticks, and SIPs. I finally settled on SIPs as the best balance of cost and insulation value. One VERY IMPORTANT factor was I found a builder and a SIP subcontractor who I trusted and who where knowledgeble. If I had a dollar for every time some contractor told me I was "crazy and stick building is the only way to go" I could pay off the mortgage. Also, in the Texas heat thermal mass doesn't seem to be that big an advantage. When the low at night is 85 degrees you just can't cool it off anyway. I find the "ice-chest" insulation and air infiltration reduction of the SIP to be a good system for our climate. Everything is a compromise. I didn't get everything perfect, but in the end we ended up with a very comfortable home that hit our budget target and is using 1/3 the energy of a similar sized home. It's a HUGH improvement over the other "North Dallas Specials" that everyone else is building. Figure out what's really important, be prepared to make a few compromises, and keep your focus on the end result. The results are very rewarding. Paul See the house at: ***************************** Hello again, this is my second post to the list which I hope generates a few responses since my durisol vs. faswall one didn't generate any . . . ;-) am I completely out of my mind to believe that I can actually do some green building with straw bale or ICF's that won't cost me an arm and a leg? I am a reasonable person and I expect contractors to make a profit but the cost of green building is getting downright depressing. I live in Austin, TX and can't tell you how many times I have been told by architects and builders that absolutely nothing can be done for less than at *least* $100 a square foot. I'm trying to do something in the range of $70-75 a square foot which I think is reasonable. After all my dad just bought a house 30 minutes outside of Houston, nice neighborhood, around 2000 sq. ft for around $100K ($50/sq.ft.). So I tacked on another $20-25/sq. ft. thinking about the cost of green materials being somewhat higher and adjusting for the Austin market which by the way is absolutely booming. People have so much work they don't even call you back or refuse to even talk with you if you are not willing to cough up at *least* a $100/sq.ft. You know it used to be that building on your own land was a lot cheaper than buying in a subdivision. You really got more for your money -- a bigger more suitable house for the same price or less! than a subdivision house. But those days are totally gone unless you build at least an hour outside of the city. Also, between all the quotes I have gotten it is really hard to tell who is telling the truth and/or being honest. For instance in a recent article on Concrete Homes one builder said that it costs about $6K more! on a 4500 square foot house to go with concrete walls so any house over $300K is a no brainer and one should consider concrete. Well I don't know about amnyone else but normally things cost more (per sq. ft.), the less square footage you have, which means that most average people may not even be able to afford concrete walls. On the other hand the ICF organization claims that you can build with most ICF systems for about the same as conventional costs. And then there are books that state that building with straw bale and rammed earth can be much less expensive than conventional building. So woe is the common person who wants to build green but really doesn't have enough knowledge or resources to make the best decision. Maybe lifetime costs are less for green building but regular people need things that costs less up front like a $150K house not a $200K house. And of course a $150K house is out of reach of many too. Sorry for the frustrated tone but I have been researching things for over six months and many days I am very close to giving up building a "green" house with nice thick walls (16-18") and a rain water catch system. I have done everything I can to cut costs -- concrete floors, very simple one-story plan, loads of research into finding the least expensive windows, doors, lighting fixtures, plumbing fixtures etc. Maybe I just need a good margarita . . . :-) Laura ldowney@ccms.net ******************* ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 5 17:50:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA27044 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 17:50:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01175; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 17:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 5 Sep 1998 17:23:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA00959 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 17:23:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA00954 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 17:23:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eliel (ip225.an1-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.12.225]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA28783; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 11:36:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199809051836.LAA28783@avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Sender: greenbergman@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Sat, 05 Sep 1998 14:26:00 -0700 To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca From: David Bergman Subject: GBlist: re: fiberglass panels Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <199809051641.MAA02538@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4365 At 12:41 PM 9/5/98 -0400, Rob Tom wrote: >on Fri, 04 Sep 1998 >David Bergman wrote: >[snipped] > >> fiberglass panels -- the ones that look sort of like shoji >> screen material, but heavier. Are there better types or >> sources? Or alternatives? > >Hello David; > >Would sandblasted, (preferably salvaged) glass be suitable for >your application ? (assuming that it is the soft, diffuse light >of traditional shoji that you are after). > Hi Rob, Thanks for the response. There are two reasons I wasn't looking into glass -- (1) cost and (2) flexibility -- the wall I've designed is curved, and glass wouln't take the curve without segmenting. Without those two constraints, I would definitely go for some form of diffused glass. By the way, it seems to me I've always heard that you can't sandblast tempered glass??? David Bergman David Bergman Architects/Fire & Water Lighting bergman@cyberg.com http://cyberg.com T 212 475 3106 F 212 677 7291 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 5 18:00:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA27084 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 18:00:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00534; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 16:56:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 5 Sep 1998 16:53:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA07532 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:31:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07527 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:30:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5 [134.117.136.25]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id MAA25347; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id MAA02538; Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 5 Sep 1998 12:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199809051641.MAA02538@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: fiberglass panels Cc: bergman@cyberg.com Reply-To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4366 on Fri, 04 Sep 1998 David Bergman wrote: [snipped] > fiberglass panels -- the ones that look sort of like shoji > screen material, but heavier. Are there better types or > sources? Or alternatives? Hello David; Would sandblasted, (preferably salvaged) glass be suitable for your application ? (assuming that it is the soft, diffuse light of traditional shoji that you are after). Unlike the fibreglass panels, glass would not be subject to UV degradation, would not give off noxious gases in the event of fire... and if it is rescued-from-the-waste-stream-glass, should be very inexpensive, both dollar/resource-wise... and when you're done with it, the real glass would still be recyclable. Although I've never tried to sandblast tempered glass , I've been told that it should be possible to do so without the glass shattering... and salvaged, tempered patio door glass units (ie those which have been discarded due to failed seals/etched glass) would seem to be well-suited to the job of being pseudo-shoji/doors. You theen ? -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 6 16:28:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.129] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA06841 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 16:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00686; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 16:02:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 6 Sep 1998 15:58:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00413 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 15:58:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from UPIMSSMTPUSR03 (smtp.email.msn.com [207.68.143.159] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00409 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 15:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default - 208.250.156.158 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 13:08:39 -0700 From: "Patricia Meeks" To: "GBList" Subject: GBlist: Seattle Article On Condo EIFS Failures Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 13:06:17 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bdd9d1$cedb1b20$9e9cfad0@default> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDD997.2283E440" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4367 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDD997.2283E440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Seattle Times posted their Special Report on Condominium Exterior Insulation and Finish Systems failures at: http://www.seattletimes.com/news/local/html98/cond_090698.html While not intended for the trade, the article does provide an overview of many of the problems that have plagued newer multi-family construction in Seattle, Washington and Vancouver, British Columbia where we have long, wet winters. The article touches on topics such as poor building design, artificial stucco that lets water in (but doesn't let it out), workers who can't speak or read the language of the construction drawings and buildings that actually suck water in because of energy conservation codes, not to mention the proliferation of law suites that have followed the building boom. Patricia Meeks pmeeks@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDD997.2283E440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The=20 Seattle Times posted their Special Report on Condominium Exterior = Insulation and=20 Finish Systems failures at:
h= ttp://www.seattletimes.com/news/local/html98/cond_090698.html<= /DIV>
 
While=20 not intended for the trade, the article does provide an overview of many = of the=20 problems that have plagued newer multi-family construction in Seattle,=20 Washington and Vancouver, British Columbia where we have long, wet = winters.=20
 
The=20 article touches on topics such as poor building design, artificial = stucco that=20 lets water in (but doesn't let it out), workers who can't speak or read = the=20 language of the construction drawings and buildings that actually suck = water in=20 because of energy conservation codes, not to mention the proliferation = of law=20 suites that have followed the building boom.

Patricia Meeks  pmeeks@msn.com

 
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01BDD997.2283E440-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 6 20:10:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.129] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA08133 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 20:10:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA07236; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:44:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:40:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA07005 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:40:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06993 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:40:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (br-ppp00.hevanet.com [198.5.254.206]) by hevanet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA08583 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 16:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35F32035.5C0AD864@hevanet.com> Date: Sun, 06 Sep 1998 16:52:30 -0700 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: green building costs] References: <35F08CB8.5E3E@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4368 > Seth wrote-- > (snip) > > If you think about the word "green" it implies life and spirit. It > > implies organic and non-linear. It refers to the interconnected web of > > life. There are many more connotations and submeanings and dilutions of > > the word, but just for now, follow this thought. (snip) --and he is right on. The Greek word that we translate as green, chloros, actually means fresh and full of life and vigor...the Greeks have described tears and the hair and beards of young people as "green". Mike O'Brien ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 6 20:19:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.129] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA08197 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 20:19:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA07692; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:55:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:51:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA07475 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:51:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07471 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 19:51:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.254.3.226] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Sun, 6 Sep 1998 17:06:50 -0800 Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: green building costs] Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 17:04:39 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1307020883-3257875@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4369 Chloros sounds like chlorophyll, which is of course the compound that converts solar energy to chemical energy at the beginning of our food chain. Bruce S >> Seth wrote-- > >> (snip) >> > If you think about the word "green" it implies life and spirit. It >> > implies organic and non-linear. It refers to the interconnected web of >> > life. There are many more connotations and submeanings and dilutions of >> > the word, but just for now, follow this thought. (snip) > >--and he is right on. The Greek word that we translate as green, chloros, >actually means fresh and full of life and vigor...the Greeks have described >tears and the hair and beards of young people as "green". > >Mike O'Brien ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 6 23:41:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.129] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA09885 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 23:41:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA13695; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 23:16:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 6 Sep 1998 23:12:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA13471 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 23:12:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA13467 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 23:12:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.137] (rkd9.acadia.net [205.217.217.137]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA24233 for ; Sun, 6 Sep 1998 23:23:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 6 Sep 1998 23:22:53 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Dome Answers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4370 Thanks to Dennis Johnson for a spirited and very well reasoned defense of domes. Dennis, you obviously are a thoughtful, intelligent and honest person, and if I ever wanted to construct a geodesic dome, I think I'd hire you. You make a good point that the typical "boxes" built today are full of problems, and that domes can offer advantages over standard tract housing. Like you, I am looking for positive alternatives to the staus quo, and while I still don't think that domes are the answer I'm looking for, your thoughtful post made me see domes more positively. Thanks, and I hope you do stick around. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 7 15:09:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.129] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17742 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 15:09:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09361; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:45:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:41:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09029 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:41:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09021 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 14:41:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [153.37.199.29] (1Cust29.tnt2.redmond.wa.da.uu.net [153.37.199.29]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA05628 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 11:52:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: wrg7@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 12:02:56 -0700 To: GBList From: Mary Colette Wallace Subject: GBlist: Seattle Article/EIFS Failures Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4371 Patricia Actually, it is not the energy codes which enable buildings 'to suck in water'. This occurs primarily in residential buildings because they *do not* have an air exchange system - they don't bring in air from the outside. Residential buildings (as opposed to commerical, etc.) are *not required* to have such - even though they are greatly beneficial. Also, this is not just a regional concern. Mary Colette Wallace >>Patricia wrote: >> The Seattle Times posted their Special Report on Condominium >>>>Exterior Insulation and Finish Systems failures at: >>>>http://www.seattletimes.com/news/local/html98/cond_090698.html While >>>>not intended for the trade, the article does provide an overview of >>many >>of the problems that have plagued newer multi-family construction >>in >>Seattle, Washington and Vancouver, British Columbia where we have >>long, >>wet winters. The article touches on topics such as poor >>building >>design, artificial stucco that lets water in (but doesn't let >>it out), >>workers who can't speak or read the language of the >>construction drawings >>and buildings that actually suck water in >>because of energy conservation >>codes, not to mention the proliferation >>of law suites that have followed >>the building boom. >>Patricia Meeks pmeeks@msn.com Mary Colette Wallace THE WALLACE RESEARCH GROUP 425.822.1249 Mailto:wrg7@earthlink.net Architecture, Engineering & building technology information services ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 7 17:10:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.129] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA18900 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 17:10:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA13254; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 16:46:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 7 Sep 1998 16:42:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA12906 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 16:42:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12902 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 16:42:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 13303 invoked from network); 7 Sep 1998 20:53:16 -0000 Received: from userb629.uk.uudial.com (HELO ) (193.149.83.104) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 7 Sep 1998 20:53:16 -0000 Message-ID: <35F45620.3F1D@dial.pipex.com> Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 21:54:40 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mary Colette Wallace CC: GBList Subject: Re: GBlist: Seattle Article/EIFS Failures References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4372 For what it's worth, the British building regulations ("codes") specify minimum ventilation areas for each room type in new-build houses, and extract fans in kitchen and bathroom [or permit you to prevent condensation by other means if you can satisfy the building control officers that they would work]. This has been found necessary as a result of large numbers of cases of condensation and mould growth. Energy conservation measures - in the form of added insulation - generally actually help avoid condensation, by keeping wall surface temperatures up. The one exception to this rule is the move in Britain from single- to double-glazing. Because, sadly, this is largely fashion-driven, and consequently many commercially-available units are poorly designed from a building physics point of view, a lot of installations have cut down the ventilation rate and made condensation problems possible. (And some installations in older dwellings have simply shifted condensation from the windows - where, on the whole, Brits put up with it - to the walls, where it is a serious matter. The cause of this, though, is some peoples' ignorant practice of putting in double glazing while leaving their walls uninsulated) Our climate may be _slightly_ more condensation-prone than that of BC/Washington/Oregon, but not by much... Mark Bigland-Pritchard hyphen@dial.pipex.com Bristol, England Mary Colette Wallace wrote: > > Patricia > > Actually, it is not the energy codes which enable buildings 'to suck in > water'. This occurs primarily in residential buildings because they *do > not* have an air exchange system - they don't bring in air from the > outside. Residential buildings (as opposed to commerical, etc.) are *not > required* to have such - even though they are greatly beneficial. Also, > this is not just a regional concern. > > Mary Colette Wallace > > >>Patricia wrote: > >> The Seattle Times posted their Special Report on Condominium > >>>>Exterior Insulation and Finish Systems failures at: > >>>>http://www.seattletimes.com/news/local/html98/cond_090698.html While > >>>>not intended for the trade, the article does provide an overview of > >>many >>of the problems that have plagued newer multi-family construction > >>in >>Seattle, Washington and Vancouver, British Columbia where we have > >>long, >>wet winters. The article touches on topics such as poor > >>building >>design, artificial stucco that lets water in (but doesn't let > >>it out), >>workers who can't speak or read the language of the > >>construction drawings >>and buildings that actually suck water in > >>because of energy conservation >>codes, not to mention the proliferation > >>of law suites that have followed >>the building boom. > > >>Patricia Meeks pmeeks@msn.com > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 7 19:40:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.129] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA20677 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA18553; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:16:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:12:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA17696 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA17691 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:11:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on8-10.netcom.ca [209.146.133.10]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA18379; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 19:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 18:19:07 -0400 To: Mary Colette Wallace From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Seattle Article/EIFS Failures Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, john@gulland.ca In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4373 At 12:02 PM 07/09/98 -0700, Mary Colette Wallace wrote: >Actually, it is not the energy codes which enable buildings 'to suck in >water'. This occurs primarily in residential buildings because they *do >not* have an air exchange system - they don't bring in air from the >outside. Residential buildings (as opposed to commerical, etc.) are *not >required* to have such - even though they are greatly beneficial. Also, >this is not just a regional concern. I believe that some new buildings in Washington and Oregon (and perhaps elsewhere - Minnesota is in the process of implementing a draconian ventilation code) are meeting ventilation requirements by means of purposefully depressurizing the building with exhaust fans and using passive slot vents in windows. Apparently, the fans are often activated automatically, and many home owners are not even aware of them. Depressurizing a building in this fashion might, indeed, suck water in through leaks in the envelope (not to mention making your furnace spill carbon monoxide)-- ie., it's a really bad idea! Unfortunately there are some "building scientists", ignorant of research results dating back as far as the early '80's, who promulgate this kind of silliness in the codes, egged on by builders looking for that bottom line. Since many houses on the West Coast don't come with ductwork (for a forced air furnace), it is more expensive to install a heat recovery ventilator there than in tract houses elsewhere. Best.......Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 7 22:19:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.129] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA21752 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25329; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 21:54:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 7 Sep 1998 21:50:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA24915 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 21:50:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24906 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 21:50:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-18-140.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.131.140]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA07477; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:00:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:09:01 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDDAAC.1E75AB20.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Patricia Meeks'" , GBList Subject: RE: GBlist: Seattle Article On Condo EIFS Failures Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 21:58:07 -0400 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4374 Thanks for this link, Patricia. I have been somewhat involved in the BC/Vancouver "Condo crisis" and can tell you with great convivction that the problem is mulit-faceted. The biggest factors are probably the building boom, and the move to California style arhcitecture in a climate that ain't California. The lack of overhangs, strongly discouraged by a change in zoning laws, stupid exposed architecural details, because of fashionable architecture uncaring of climate, a Code change to allow 4 storey wood buildings, shoddy workmanship, economics that favour condominium construction (build and forget) , the addition of extra insulation and a poly vapour barrier on the inside without counter measures, and a few other things all contributed to the failures. Good building science predicted the failures, and the predictions have come true. CMHC has a nice report out on the initial review of the failures (which also occured on vinyl and wood siding) which can be ordered or purchased. -----Original Message----- From: Patricia Meeks [SMTP:pmeeks@email.msn.com] Sent: Sunday, September 06, 1998 4:06 PM To: GBList Subject: GBlist: Seattle Article On Condo EIFS Failures The Seattle Times posted their Special Report on Condominium Exterior Insulation and Finish Systems failures at: http://www.seattletimes.com/news/local/html98/cond_090698.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 7 22:45:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.129] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA21887 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:45:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA26465; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:21:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:17:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA26191 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:17:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA26187 for ; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:17:39 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id LMDWa24183; Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:27:48 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Sep 1998 22:27:48 EDT To: djohnson@naturalspacesdomes.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Dome Answers Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4375 Dennis, I'd also like to welcome you to this forum. It's great to have people take part who have real depth of experience behind their words rather than merely fashionable ideas. I doubt if you'll convince me that domes are a great housing solution. I worked and lived in one briefly in the mid seventies. While I trust you and others have learned a lot since then, I liken your experience to my own in building 150 plus sunrooms. Until the recession forced me to broaden the focus of my business, I thought sunrooms were the perfect answer to virtually every question. While I became quite expert at the craft of building sunrooms, the better I got as a builder, the more I came to realize that in many cases, sunrooms were simply the wrong answer to the clients needs, despite the clients sincere interests. Experience has taught me also that the old adage "the customer is always right" is simply wrong much of the time. Most interesting would be the answer to a question that Barry asked me and several folks skirted around in this whole conversation about domes: Assuming we were willing to leave aside our prejudices about form, function, performance, and maintenance, the question of costs is fundamental to this discussion. What I suggested in my meeting with Barry and Mary Ellen was that even if you gave me all the structural materials for the dome for free, the overall building would still cost somewhere on the order of twice the cost of a cape or other more conventional styled home with equal or better energy and environmental features and equal usable square footage. This assumpion was a rough guess based on having built numerous wild buildings and seen costs for every trade skyrocket due to the complexities. Just the finish woodwork or sheetrock on the interior of the structure has to be a phenomenal cost. All those triangles at strange angles isn't like setting up the chop saw at 90 degrees. So my question: For a contractor built dome, built by professional builders where there isn't a local dome specialist: what are the final costs to the client. Not do it yourself projects or ones where your company does the construction, but for a client hoping to have a local builder build a dome, do you have hard documented costs compared to conventional local construction? Thanks for your thoughts, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 8 07:46:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.129] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA26036 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:46:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA13113; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:22:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:18:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA12871 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:18:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA12867 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:18:38 -0400 (EDT) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 1VPKa24183 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:28:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <63e2b61b.35f514df@aol.com> Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:28:31 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Cost vs feeling in the building Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4376 In a message dated 98-09-07 23:24:18 EDT, FUnger@aol.com writes: << the overall building would still cost somewhere on the order of twice the cost of a cape or other more conventional styled home with equal or better energy and environmental features and equal usable square footage. >> I understand that people have some budget considerations --- when I built the office/studio addition to my house, I put a barrel vaulted ceiling/roof on the building - living and working in that space is too wonderful for words - it brightens each day and I would think domes and other rounded shapes would do exactly the same --- when I build again, I will definitely include rounded shapes of some sort, even if it means making everything else smaller, or cutting something out --- I would rather live in an 800 sq ft home with curves and good feelings rather than a 3000 sq ft rectilinear structure Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 8 11:58:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([208.202.27.129] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29786 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24544; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:33:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:30:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24203 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:29:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24199 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 11:29:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 3738 invoked from network); 8 Sep 1998 15:40:33 -0000 Received: from usern063.uk.uudial.com (HELO ) (193.149.81.96) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 8 Sep 1998 15:40:33 -0000 Message-ID: <35F4FF10.6644@dial.pipex.com> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 09:55:28 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Norbert Senf CC: Mary Colette Wallace , greenbuilding@crest.org, john@gulland.ca Subject: Re: GBlist: Seattle Article/EIFS Failures References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4377 Norbert Senf wrote: > ...purposefully depressurizing the building with exhaust fans and using > passive slot vents in windows. Apparently, the fans are often activated > automatically, and many home owners are not even aware of them. > Depressurizing a building in this fashion might, indeed, suck water in > through leaks in the envelope (not to mention making your furnace spill > carbon monoxide)-- ie., it's a really bad idea! Unfortunately there are > some "building scientists", ignorant of research results dating back as > far as the early '80's, who promulgate this kind of silliness in the > codes, egged on by builders looking for that bottom line. Since many > houses on the West Coast don't come with ductwork (for a forced air > furnace), it is more expensive to install a heat recovery ventilator > there than in tract houses elsewhere. I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, Norbert. But a couple of things from consistent British experience over the last few decades: - yes, CO blowback can be a problem with old installations. But as for years virtually all new gas boilers (which is what we mostly use) have had balanced flues, this is very much a minority problem. (Don't North Americans use balanced flues?...) - sucking in water through leaks in the envelope - do you mean liquid water (which in this context is never going to have a major effect unless the envelope design is appalling) or water vapour (of which in a heating climate more is going to be chucked out at the extract fan than pulled in at the slotvent)? Or maybe you're talking about much bigger fans than are normal here. - proper design is essential, but meeting certain guidelines is generally enough - vent to the outside from "wet" rooms, sucking drier air into them from "dry" rooms; ensure the fans you're using are strong enough to deal with typical local wind conditions (and preferably don't have prevailing winds blowing into your wet rooms anyway); generally use humidistat-controlled fans but with manual override available (to switch off in summer); ensure overhangs are adequate; clear up any water penetration problem first; etc. - HRV in a maritime climate is much more difficult to justify economically than in a continental climate. I've done monitoring of some of the cheaper models available in Britain, and was not impressed - the fraction of energy recovered was very small, and overall savings undiscernable on fuel bills. To my mind in this sort of climate it is pointless except where (i) the client has lots of money (!), or, more seriously (ii) the dwelling is built to a standard of airtightness such that one can realistically assume that the HRV unit is the major route for infiltration/ventilation. [Of course, like "many houses on the west coast", we don't normally have ductwork installed, and where we do it's often of little use for HRV, so there is an added installation cost] It also loses effectiveness somewhat in a culture that places a positive value on the opening of windows.... - I'd like you to expand on these "research results dating back as far as the early '80s". Are you actually disagreeing with the longstanding (over here, anyway) understanding that condensation risk demands a certain minimum ventilation rate? Or is it just the way that some in N America have done it that is the problem? Mark Bigland-Pritchard hyphen@dial.pipex.com Bristol, England ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 8 14:23:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02792 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:23:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01819; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:59:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:55:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA01448 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:55:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01432 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:54:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on5-25.netcom.ca [207.181.91.89]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03244; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 13:01:59 -0400 To: Mark Bigland-Pritchard From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Seattle Article/EIFS Failures Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, john@gulland.ca In-Reply-To: <35F4FF10.6644@dial.pipex.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4378 At 09:55 AM 08/09/98 +0000, Mark Bigland-Pritchard wrote:

(snip)>- yes, CO blowback can be a problem with old installations.=A0 But as for
>years virtually all new gas boilers (which is what we mostly use) have
>had balanced flues, this is very much a minority problem.=A0 (Don't North
>Americans use balanced flues?...)

Not sure what a balanced flue is. Here we refer to sealed combustion systems and atmospherically vented combustion systems for gas. Atmospherically vented is when the exhaust is into the same room, with a little hood above it, connected to a chimney.

Sealed system are just that, in theory. "Aerodynamically decoupled" from the house, with outside combustion air, etc. In practice, they rely on gaskets, etc., that wear out and need maintenance. It is not uncommon to have CO from "sealed" systems spill into rooms that are highly depressurized by such things as house chimney effect, exhaust appliances, etc. The worst exhaust appliance culprits are Jennaire downdrafting kitchen ranges. These experiences are all in reference to airtight construction as currently practiced in Canada and mandated in our building codes. Leaky buildings behave differently - for example, they are harder to depressurize with a fan. In Canada, the level of depressurization that is considered compatible with combustion appliances, known as the "House Depressurization Limit (HDL)" is 5 pascals. Again, this is based on extensive research and field surveys of existing housing stock.

>- sucking in water through leaks in the envelope - do you mean liquid
>water (which in this context is never going to have a major effect unless
>the envelope design is appalling) or water vapour (of which in a heating
>climate more is going to be chucked out at the extract fan than pulled in
>at the slotvent)?=A0

This is idle speculation on my part. If you have a EIFS system without a drainage plane, and highly dependent on the integrity of the caulk joints, then if you do have a hairline crack with some liquid water nearby, having wind or house induced pressure differences across that crack certainly won't help.

>- HRV in a maritime climate is much more difficult to justify
>economically than in a continental climate.=A0 I've done monitoring of some
>of the cheaper models available in Britain, and was not impressed - the
>fraction of energy recovered was very small, and overall savings
>undiscernable on fuel bills.=A0 To my mind in this sort of climate it is
>pointless except where (i) the client has lots of money (!), or, more
>seriously (ii) the dwelling is built to a standard of airtightness such
>that one can realistically assume that the HRV unit is the major route
>for infiltration/ventilation.

Yes, this is the airtightness standard in Canada. Other jurisdictions, like the American Pacific Northwest, are starting to also build airtight houses, starting to address the ventilation issue, but not yet doing it seriously. I emphatically stand by my assertion that depressurizing a house with a fan is not a good idea. You need a balanced ventilation system, such as a properly installed HRV provides. We regularly encounter custom post and beam houses with stress skin panels in the U.S., built by very good craftsmen, tight as a drum, with no mechanical ventilation provisions.

Canadians aren't particularly any smarter. Its just that our first airtight houses were built by the government in the Arctic, where certain moisture problems are amplified. The roofs caved in after about 5 years from rot, which is what started the serious research investigation. Slowly, as ordinary houses are being built tighter and tigher, further and further south, without addressing ventilation in a "house as a system" approach, these problems are starting to migrate south (and apparently west) as well.

=A0 [Of course, like "many houses on the west
>coast", we don't normally have ductwork installed, and where we do it's
>often of little use for HRV, so there is an added installation cost]=A0 It
>also loses effectiveness somewhat in a culture that places a positive
>value on the opening of windows....

The thing that turned me around on HRV's was better ventilation rates compared with all-of-the-windows-open natural ventilation.

>- I'd like you to expand on these "research results dating back as far as
>the early '80s".=A0

Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation(CMHC) pioneered this field, and has an extensive collection of research reports available. Many of the results were implemented in the Canadian R-2000 housing program about 15 years ago, and have since slowly migrated into the Building Code of Canada. The most useful document, in fact a must-have for any airtight builder, is
The Canadian Home Builders' Association Builders' Manual
( http://www.buildermanual.com/ )

Interestingly, right-wing governments such as in the province of Ontario are starting to roll back some of the efficiency provisions - at the behest of, you guessed it, large tract-housing developers.

Are you actually disagreeing with the longstanding
>(over here, anyway) understanding that condensation risk demands a
>certain minimum ventilation rate?=A0

No. Ventilation is good - the more air changes the better. In our climate, an HRV is the only feasible way to do it in an airtight house. Well, sort of. Fuel oil is still dirt cheap here, so you could just open some windows in the winter. Don't know if there are cultural differences or not, but I have noticed that my British friends don't seem to mind a cool house, whereas I like to walk around in a t-shirt when the outside temperature dips below -20C. Sit in the sunroom and pretend I'm in the Caribbean - listen to reggae music...

Best..............Norbert Senf

----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org
Masonry Stove Builders  
RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb  &= nbsp;
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092
         
       
          

______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 8 14:27:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02846 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:27:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02155; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:58:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA01712 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:58:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from graytwo.jngray.com ([207.201.192.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01707 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 13:58:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by GRAYTWO with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:06:41 -0400 Message-ID: From: David Vickers To: "'David Bergman'" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: fiberglass panels Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 14:06:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4379 David, I think you may be talking about "Kalwall" panels. My experience with these is that they are a sandwich type panel which is plastic composite panel that is translucent and it is filled with "angel hair" insulation...a very light type of fiberglass insulation. > -----Original Message----- > From: David Bergman [SMTP:bergman@cyberg.com] > Sent: Friday, September 04, 1998 8:20 PM > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: fiberglass panels > > I'm interested in finding out the environmental (or > anti-environmental) > properties of fiberglass panels -- the ones that look sort of like > shoji > screen material, but heavier. Are there better types or sources? Or > alternatives? > > Thank you, > > > David Bergman > David Bergman Architects/Fire & Water Lighting > bergman@cyberg.com http://cyberg.com > T 212 475 3106 F 212 677 7291 > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 8 18:44:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA02292 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:44:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15259; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:14:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA14867 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14862 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:14:16 -0400 (EDT) From: DocPanic@aol.com Received: from DocPanic@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id DKVQa14124; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:23:34 EDT To: ldowney@ccms.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: green building costs Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 58 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4380 In a message dated 98-09-03 22:37:47 EDT, you write: << am I completely out of my mind to believe that I can actually do some green building with straw bale or ICF's that won't cost me an arm and a leg? >> I'd like to hear more on this topic too. If greenbuilding is to truly have a lasting impact on the environment, then the incentives need to be there for the environmentally unconscious to say "Why the heck not build green if it doesn't cost any more." Having been involved in affordable housing concerns over the past ten years, I am especially concerned about how the less affluent can get left out when we think of cheaper housing. I am looking at building a house in the next 1.5 years that is going to go through the roof if I go totally green. How about the mantra "sustainable and affordable" David Shaw ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 8 22:49:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07981 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25248; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:23:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:18:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA24932 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:18:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24927 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:18:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA10-p55.dreamscape.com [209.4.252.247]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA19459 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:29:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35F5E7B2.B7D7C6A5@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 22:28:03 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: household bioremediation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4381 For those of you who may be looking for alternative bug control options, I found this on a techno geek ezine I frequent. "I was chatting on misc.consumers.frugal and spoke with a local petshop owner, and both confirmed that you can use mediterranean house geckos or tokay geckos to control the roach population. Just turn them loose and you'll probably never see either critter again. My brother the amateur herpetologist tells me that Tokays have a nasty bite, however." Better Living Through Biology. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 8 23:00:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08120 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:00:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA26055; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:36:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:33:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA25583 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25579 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:32:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eliel (ip139.an1-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.12.139]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA28565; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 19:43:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199809090243.TAA28565@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Sender: greenbergman@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 19:01:56 -0700 To: David Vickers From: David Bergman Subject: RE: GBlist: fiberglass panels Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4382 At 02:06 PM 9/8/98 -0400, you wrote: >David, > >I think you may be talking about "Kalwall" panels. My experience with >these is that they are a sandwich type panel which is plastic composite >panel that is translucent and it is filled with "angel hair" >insulation...a very light type of fiberglass insulation. > Actually, no, although it was a reasonable assumption. The usage is for a curved interior partition. Using Kalwall would be much more complicated and expensive than plain fiberglass panels fastened to studs. I was hoping to find out whether there was fiberglass with recycled content or perhaps a more benign alternative material. David Bergman David Bergman Architects/Fire & Water Lighting bergman@cyberg.com http://cyberg.com T 212 475 3106 F 212 677 7291 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 8 23:01:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08146 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:01:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA26153; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:37:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:34:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA25692 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:33:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25682 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:33:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id VAA0000018764; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 21:44:24 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980909024708.006d85fc@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 21:47:08 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Fresh Air requirements Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4383 I would like to jump into the discussion about the need for bringing in make-up air in an air tight house; it has been said that the small hole-in-the-wall inlets common in Canada are said to be better to use than the far more expensive HRVs in more common use in the US. Was told this by a technical salesman* at one of the reputable catalogue firms, a person who used to service HRVS and who said that we Americans are particularly bad about doing the simple servicing necessary to keep our machines running (changing filters and such) and so they breakdown and become an even more expensive green gadget. He is a strong proponent of using inlets instead. What say you? . I have also been told that at its most simple level one needs to count up the exhaust cfms and balance that with the same amount of make-up air from the outside. However, recent discussions have suggested that only one of the inlets per room or per occupant would do the trick. Since a single inlet admits only a fraction of the air normally exhausted, this doesn't seem correct. I would appreciate comments on this too.. * he also said that studies have shown that most housing built since the 70s are tight enough to require the addition of fresh air to improve their indoor air quality. he particularly attributed this to the practice of using a lot of plywood in construction. (those were the days----) Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 8 23:24:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08414 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:24:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA26932; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:59:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:56:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA26669 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:55:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA26663 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000009009; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 22:06:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980909030910.006d5e84@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 22:09:10 -0500 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: household bioremediation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4384 >"I was chatting on misc.consumers.frugal and spoke with a local petshop >owner, and both confirmed that you can use >mediterranean house geckos or tokay geckos to control the roach >population. Just turn them loose and you'll probably never >see either critter again. My brother the amateur herpetologist tells me >that Tokays have a nasty bite, however." We've lived in places where geckos abound and they've never ever come down from their normal habitat around the ceilings of the house. Like all wild creatures, they have no more interest in intruding in our space than we have in theirs. One time many years ago,at the moment my husband threw the carriage of his typewriter, a gecko just happened to fall from the ceiling at exactly the right time. But that's a coincidence that comes along only once. They have a wonderful gecko call too--'-gheh-eh coe'. If you hear them repeat it seven times that's really good luck for you and the house. Think you have to live in tropical weather to take advantage of these natural pest controllers. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 8 23:55:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08755 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:55:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA28110; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:30:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:26:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27814 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:26:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27808 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:26:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip27.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.27]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA20673; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 23:37:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980909035025.00920a3c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 23:50:25 -0400 To: "David F. Lambertson" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Fresh Air requirements Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4385 At 09:47 PM 9/8/1998 -0500, David F. Lambertson wrote: >I would like to jump ... please measure (the exhaust) before you jump ... ps: the rule is 15 cfm per person & the assumption is that here are 2 people in the master bedroom + 1 each in all other bedrooms (debatable for partners, but adjustable for cfm). >Since a single inlet admits only a fraction of the air normally exhausted, this >doesn't seem correct. If your, please read (lover, husband, brother, sister, mother, father, daughter, god forbid tenant, etc..) closed the door with the room w/the inlet - nothing will work correctly ... a hole, is a hole, is a hole & what goes out must come in !!! measure, measure, measure & figure & cut once, if you be with conscience & some dumb luck. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 9 08:44:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA14946 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:44:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11037; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:19:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:16:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA10819 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:15:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10814 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:15:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 1MEHa11929 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <7e756c84.35f673da@aol.com> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 08:26:02 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: commercial signage Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 214 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4386 Technical question: Any commercial builders have any experience in recycling exterior signage, especially the plastic type that lights up at night. This is a huge project and this company also wants replacement signage with recycled content. Suggestions welcome. Phil Bailey/SustainAblility 540-891-2250 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 9 09:42:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15655 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:42:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13360; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:18:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:15:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13056 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:14:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from u2.farm.idt.net (root@u2.farm.idt.net [169.132.8.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13049 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:14:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ppp-13.ts-9.hp.idt.net (ppp-13.ts-9.hp.idt.net [169.132.73.205]) by u2.farm.idt.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA01628 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:25:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ppp-13.ts-9.hp.idt.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BDDBD3.A50B3740@ppp-13.ts-9.hp.idt.net>; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:24:28 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDDBD3.A50B3740@ppp-13.ts-9.hp.idt.net> From: Rob Berger To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: FW: GBlist: household bioremediation Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 09:16:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA13050 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4387 For what its worth: 1. Tokays will eat roaches but is not really "hunter" but more an opportunist so...bring the roaches to the lizard??? 2. Tokays are (like many geckos) primarily nocturnal so while you will likely not see it much once it is set loose you might hear it at night. 3. Tokays, like other geckos can adhere to vertical and even inverted surfaces however they are MUCH larger than most geckos and very fast. DO not be surprised to occasionally see its 5-7 inch length jet past across the ceiling as you lay in bed at night counting sheep. 4. Do not get bitten. While it is not the most painful bite in the world, Tokay's can lock their jaw closed (to prevent very large prey from escaping, sometimes at the cost of dragging their own bodies behind!). In my experience the only way to encourage release when the jaw has locked is submersion underwater. Unfortunately they can also hold their breath for quite a while (up to 15 minutes...) so do not plan on this being quick. 5. Unlike their cousins, the only sound Tokays make is a HISSING sound when they feel threatened. 6. Day geckos or even a few house geckos are probably a more hospitable choice.... ---------- From: David F. Lambertson [SMTP:dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu] Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 1998 11:09 PM To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com; greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: household bioremediation >"I was chatting on misc.consumers.frugal and spoke with a local petshop >owner, and both confirmed that you can use >mediterranean house geckos or tokay geckos to control the roach >population. Just turn them loose and you'll probably never >see either critter again. My brother the amateur herpetologist tells me >that Tokays have a nasty bite, however." We've lived in places where geckos abound and they've never ever come down from their normal habitat around the ceilings of the house. Like all wild creatures, they have no more interest in intruding in our space than we have in theirs. One time many years ago,at the moment my husband threw the carriage of his typewriter, a gecko just happened to fall from the ceiling at exactly the right time. But that's a coincidence that comes along only once. They have a wonderful gecko call too-'-gheh-eh coe'. If you hear them repeat it seven times that's really good luck for you and the house. Think you have to live in tropical weather to take advantage of these natural pest controllers. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 9 11:43:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17662 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:43:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19061; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:18:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:14:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18544 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:14:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18537 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:14:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DNQCK522; Wed, 09 Sep 1998 11:24:59 EDT To: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:08:01 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: household bioremediation Message-ID: <19980909.112608.9502.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <1.5.4.32.19980909030910.006d5e84@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,7-8,10-15 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4388 Hi Sacie et al, Don't know about geckos-not too many around here, but we have their "cousins", chameleons, which do pretty much the same thing. The difference is that we do see them quite often, sticking to the walls or windows or running across the tile. They are harmless and friendly little critters and will respond to the human voice by cocking their head. Only problem - the cat thinks they are great sport and they can wind up as the prey, rather than the predator. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 9 12:07:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17941 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 12:07:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20388; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:43:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:39:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA20078 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20074 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPVAJ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:58:07 -0400 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDDBE7.58283400@Walnut.babb.com>; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:45:29 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDDBE7.58283400@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'GBLIST'" Subject: GBlist: [EP] household bioremediation Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 11:45:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id LAA20075 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4389 I found this on the Environmental News Network daily news (http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/1998/09/090998/bytes9.asp) _______________________________________________________ Smart chickens -- In a novel approach to pest management, China is using specially trained chickens to fight the annual infestation of locusts in its northwestern region, according to the Washington Times. The chickens undergo training for two months after they hatch, and are taught to recognize and follow a supervisor wearing a specific color. However, according to Yu Xiaogua, an official on the locust-control project in Xinjiang Autonomous Region, "`We don't have to train them to want to eat locusts -- they do that naturally.'" Not just any chicken will do: they use a native breed that is smarter and has a longer memory than those used for meat or eggs. This year's program used 100,000 chickens and was so successful that they plan to train twice as many chickens next year ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 9 16:20:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA22161 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04929; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:55:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:51:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04549 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:51:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04541 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 15:51:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Alisa (usr0a83.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.83]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA23467; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:01:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980909160257.006f3c40@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 16:02:57 -0400 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com, Greenbuilding From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: household bioremediation In-Reply-To: <35F5E7B2.B7D7C6A5@dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4390 At 10:28 PM 9/8/98 -0400, Chuck Hinckley wrote: >For those of you who may be looking for alternative bug control options, >I found this on a techno geek ezine I frequent. > >"I was chatting on misc.consumers.frugal and spoke with a local petshop >owner, and both confirmed that you can use >mediterranean house geckos or tokay geckos to control the roach >population. Just turn them loose and you'll probably never >see either critter again. My brother the amateur herpetologist tells me >that Tokays have a nasty bite, however." > >Better Living Through Biology. > It sounds like a good idea and I am sure it works in many cases- Geckos were all the rage in NYC about 9 years ago when I heard about them a lot. The I started hearing about geckos dying under peoples refrigerators and behind the woodwork and smelling up their apartments. Something to consider. Danny Sagan- Randolph Ctr VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 9 16:39:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA22440 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:39:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06013; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:11:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05682 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:11:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05678 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:11:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.4.254.37] (uA3-p37.dreamscape.com [209.4.254.37]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA18717 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:21:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 16:34:25 -0400 To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: fresh air requirements Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4391 Hi folks, My experience on residential ventilation by depressurization. NYS has just published a residential ventilation guide for homeowners which covers many of these issues. 1) Good idea heating climate, ok idea mixed climate, hot dry climate, bad idea hot humid climate in air conditioned buildings 2) Ventilation effectiveness is enhanced by multi-point exhaust, but I have increasing evidence that powered exhaust-make-up through holes generally has a lower ventilation effectiveness than systems with ducted, multi-point OA inlets. 3) Outdoor air inlets - bench testing these units I find they have an Effective Leakage Area of less than 3 sq. in. If you use 6 you've got maybe 18 sq. in. In order for half the incoming air to come through the inlets you'd have had to seal the house up to an ELA of 18 sq. in. In all the fan door testing I've done, I've found very few houses sealed up that well. How about others?? - in houses I've tested that had inlets, I find that only 2 to 7 cfm of air is coming inthrough them, although they are rated as 20 cfm devices (my recollection is they are tested at 10 pascals pressure difference, which for a family of four, min. ventilation of 60 cfm, would mean the house would have to have a total ELA of about 18 sq. in. - no ELA in building structure) - ventilation distribution can be enhanced by placing one where you're sure you want to have a few cfm of outdoor air - to be useful they need to be much larger and controllable and used by people who know when to use them - located above the neutral pressure level they are outlets - Terry >I would like to jump into the discussion about the need for bringing in >make-up air in an air tight house; it has been said that the small >hole-in-the-wall inlets common in Canada are said to be better to use than >the far more expensive HRVs in more common use in the US. Was told this by >a technical salesman* at one of the reputable catalogue firms, a person who >used to service HRVS and who said that we Americans are particularly bad >about doing the simple servicing necessary to keep our machines running >(changing filters and such) and so they breakdown and become an even more >expensive green gadget. He is a strong proponent of using inlets instead. >What say you? . > I have also been told that at its most simple level one needs to >count up the exhaust cfms and balance that with the same amount of make-up >air from the outside. However, recent discussions have suggested that only >one of the inlets per room or per occupant would do the trick. Since a >single inlet admits only a fraction of the air normally exhausted, this >doesn't seem correct. > I would appreciate comments on this too.. >* he also said that studies have shown that most housing built since the 70s >are tight enough to require the addition of fresh air to improve their >indoor air quality. he particularly attributed this to the practice of >using a lot of plywood in construction. (those were the days----) > Sacie Lambertson > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 9 18:05:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA23920 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:05:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA09919; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:40:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:36:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09503 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:35:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09499 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 17:35:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.47]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 5100200 ; Wed, 09 Sep 1998 14:47:09 -0800 Message-ID: <35F6F699.6517BA5C@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 14:43:53 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Fresh Air requirements References: <1.5.4.32.19980909024708.006d85fc@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4392 Canadian requirements for residential are still based on 1/2 change of air per hour and the assumption (again based on code requirements for vapour and air control) that a fairly tight house would still allow this volume of infiltration (canadians have tested this to death). The basic flow would be provided by simple exhaust (generally bath) on a humidistat. Lots of holes in this (no pun intended). Code requires an air plan authorized by someone that amounts to a basic calculation of volume and specifications for some basic fan (not to exceed a certain noise level and surprisingly can be purchased at any store and still be guaranteed to exceed that noise level within six months of use (that's if someone realizes that a humidistat is not meant to be an off/on switch and simply leaves it permanently off in which case it will be quiet for years). Distribution through rooms is accomplished by leaving a minimum 1/2" gap at the base of doors along with a note to the owners that this was intentional. This whole assembly amounts to my favourite analogy (I'm repeating myself) about bumper design i.e. if it goes to fast and bumps into things 'accidentally' put a bumper on it. If we aim for simplicity I would want a lot of air exhausted from and supplied to a place that I spend a lot of very unproductive time (hint . . . sleeping [ the bedroom not my office]). Ideally I would like that air to be clean so since I live in the country I could assume that that would be from the great outdoorsy countryside, well it depends on where my chimney is located and it also depends on where vehicles are parked (where I fire up my chainsaw, what my growing sensitivities are to pollens, airborne fungi etc.). It also depend on what my house is made of or decomposing into,as I might be better off with car exhaust fumes. I think what I'm trying to say is that we get so wrapped up in details that I find very few designers consistently maintaining the basic life flows i.e. air, light, moisture in any balance that does not conflict or get displaced by the colour schemes. To get back to being simple, personally I favour inlets and if we want to get techy the bladder type. The reason is simplicity, a hole is a source of direct unmediated air and a basic hole is a window (not to be relied upon as we grow out of touch with how much air we require). Infiltration will draw air from areas also susceptible to moisture infiltration (yeech) and ducts are like sucking out of a used straw (never sure what's in there and don't want to know). Basically its nice to know where your air is coming from. The problem is air is still going to come in from everywhere unless it is incredibly tight - difficult to achieve AND maintain- or inlets are sized and placed effectively. The next issue is knowing where the air is going. Like any welcome guest you don't want to put the pressure on for them to leave (pun intended) You want to know the air is flowing across surfaces and is well distributed at a rate that maintains some skin comfort: Inlets between rooms, open areas, etc. Within this flow its good to look at clean to dirty meaning that air from areas that increase its moisture content or contaminate it needs to be directed towards exhaust not distribution. The Cooper Union is (or was) a good point with the system drawing air through all the studios until it was finally dumped into the admin offices (a sleepy crowd) The second basic aspect of simplicity is conservation. My first priority is generally to stay outside where I simply need calories to maintain some semblance of comfort, the problem is the home requires some basic level of calories to sustain itself without my presence and its a lot bigger than me. So if we make sure the house is wearing more than just underwear and can get it to stand in the sun and keep it out of the wind we won't have to bring it a hot or cool drink every five minutes. If a house can be conserving then increased ventilation for health is less of an economic consequence (lets factor health costs into the overall). For heat recovery to be tied to exhaust with the use of inlets the heat has to be transferred to something other than air and from everything I've considered air to water seems the most efficient but would love to hear other considerations. I just noticed Terry's post on effectiveness of inlets and it gives me pause (science consistently interferes with rational opinions). The problem is for me a heat system that eliminates ductwork which means an air system that is also duct free. For me a heating system should be ideally zoned if it utilizes resource based energy. In many ways room space heaters or chillers are more ideal (especially for a moderate heating climate) than radiant because of the quick response time. In some ways we should look at this more as the heating of incoming air within living zones may be the most expedient and the exhaust points could ensure enough distribution of zoned heat throughout an entire dwelling to maintain basic temp. Sorry for the long and rambling thoughts (kind of mood I'm in today) John David F. Lambertson wrote: > I would like to jump into the discussion about the need for bringing in > make-up air in an air tight house; it has been said that the small > hole-in-the-wall inlets common in Canada are said to be better to use than > the far more expensive HRVs in more common use in the US. Was told this by > a technical salesman* at one of the reputable catalogue firms, a person who > used to service HRVS and who said that we Americans are particularly bad > about doing the simple servicing necessary to keep our machines running > (changing filters and such) and so they breakdown and become an even more > expensive green gadget. He is a strong proponent of using inlets instead. > What say you? . > I have also been told that at its most simple level one needs to > count up the exhaust cfms and balance that with the same amount of make-up > air from the outside. However, recent discussions have suggested that only > one of the inlets per room or per occupant would do the trick. Since a > single inlet admits only a fraction of the air normally exhausted, this > doesn't seem correct. > I would appreciate comments on this too.. > * he also said that studies have shown that most housing built since the 70s > are tight enough to require the addition of fresh air to improve their > indoor air quality. he particularly attributed this to the practice of > using a lot of plywood in construction. (those were the days----) > Sacie Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 9 20:27:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA26130 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15899; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:03:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:58:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA15471 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:58:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA15467 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:58:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA01935 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 19:08:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md11-56.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.184) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma001867; Wed Sep 9 19:08:32 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980909200629.006f800c@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 20:06:34 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Co-op America Business Network discussion group Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4393 I believe this might be of interest to Green Building List members... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Co-op America Business Network discussion group From: "Chris O'Brien" > >Over the past year, many CABN members have expressed a strong interest in sharing their experience and ideas with other companies committed to social responsibility. Other members have told us they really want to learn more about what other progressive business leaders are doing to create cutting edge socially responsible businesses. > >To facilitate this discussion, the CABN staff has created *CABNlist*, an exclusive new email discussion group for members of the Co-op America Business Network. > >We invite you to join the list (instructions below) and use it to get ideas and feedback from other members, discover discounts offered by other members, get advice from guest participants on everything from marketing to financing, and arrange offline connections with new contacts. > >The list will feature guest experts in fields like green marketing, socially responsible financing, product development and green business trends analysis. > >To subscribe to the list send an email to Majordomo@lists.vni.net. Don't put a subject line, and type in the body of your message: subscribe cabnlist [youremail@address.xxx] (type your email address between the brackets) > >I look forward to seeing you on CABNlist! > >Christopher M. O'Brien >Co-op America Business Network >1612 K Street NW, Suite 600 >Washington, DC 20006 >fax: (202)822-8471 >e-mail: chrisobrien@coopamerica.org > >To join the Co-op America Business Network see >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >PLEASE VISIT THESE SITES and share them with others: >Resources & tips for consumers & businesses: http://www.coopamerica.org >10,000 green products, services & businesses: http://www.greenpages.org >Socially responsible investment news: http://www.socialinvest.org >Sustainable use of wood & paper: http://www.WoodWise.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 9 21:47:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA26941 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18907; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:19:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18637 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:19:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1.sprynet.com (m1.sprynet.com [165.121.2.97]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18633 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 21:19:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cowpen (hil-dnppr-093.oh.compuserve.net [206.175.97.221]) by m1.sprynet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA27476; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:29:42 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: "Mike Carter" From: "Mike Carter" To: Cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: green building costs Date: Wed, 9 Sep 1998 18:46:13 -0500 Message-ID: <01bddc4c$073ff860$LocalHost@cowpen> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4394 Just returned from a trip to Oregon where I met a man who is probably half-way through building a small house, split level with a sleeping loft, and has spent $15 so far. He figures that he will need several hundred dollars for his roof, though. He uses found and recycled materials; the walls are made out of Cob. It is a delightful structure that has the most carefully designed living space I have ever seen. People have come from all over the area to give him a hand with the construction. And wow, is it ever "green". The hard truth about the costs of most building is that we have all been brainwashed into thinking that we need things that we don't, and there is massive collusion to make sure that we keep wanting those things so that we will mortgage our souls and work for the rest of our lives to pay off our expensive homes. The $ / sq. ft. measure encourages larger,more wasteful homes. Wealth is much of the problem - I know of single people building 3500 sq, ft, homes to impress people at work. Bill Steen talks about building houses for a few hundred dollars in Mexico. If you want to build cheaply, you're headed in the right direction because if you don't spend a lot of money you're not going to buy a lot of new materials, concrete, etc. Question the assumptions. There are many and they are insideous. We have fallen into these traps ourselves and it takes the shining and courageous examples of others to show us the way out. >In a message dated 98-09-03 22:37:47 EDT, you write: > ><< am I completely out of my mind to believe that I can actually >do some green building with straw bale or ICF's that won't >cost me an arm and a leg? >> > >I'd like to hear more on this topic too. If greenbuilding is to truly have a >lasting impact on the environment, then the incentives need to be there for >the environmentally unconscious to say "Why the heck not build green if it >doesn't cost any more." Having been involved in affordable housing concerns >over the past ten years, I am especially concerned about how the less affluent >can get left out when we think of cheaper housing. > >I am looking at building a house in the next 1.5 years that is going to go >through the roof if I go totally green. How about the mantra "sustainable and >affordable" > >David Shaw >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 9 23:20:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA27707 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:20:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA22697; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 22:55:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Sep 1998 22:51:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA22369 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 22:51:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA22365 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 22:51:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust113.tnt26.sfo3.da.uu.net [208.255.72.113]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA02193; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 20:02:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35F7403D.3563@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 19:58:05 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: Mike Carter Subject: Re: GBlist: green building costs References: <01bddc4c$073ff860$LocalHost@cowpen> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4395 Mike Carter wrote: > > Just returned from a trip to Oregon where I met a man who is probably > half-way through building a small house, split level with a sleeping loft, > and has spent $15 so far. He figures that he will need several hundred > dollars for his roof, though. He uses found and recycled materials; the > walls are made out of Cob. It is a delightful structure that has the most > carefully designed living space I have ever seen. People have come from all > over the area to give him a hand with the construction. And wow, is it ever > "green". > > The hard truth about the costs of most building is that we have all been > brainwashed into thinking that we need things that we don't, and there is > massive collusion to make sure that we keep wanting those things so that we > will mortgage our souls and work for the rest of our lives to pay off our > expensive homes. The $ / sq. ft. measure encourages larger,more wasteful > homes. > Wealth is much of the problem - I know of single people building 3500 sq, > ft, homes to impress people at work. Bill Steen talks about building houses > for a few hundred dollars in Mexico. If you want to build cheaply, you're > headed in the right direction because if you don't spend a lot of money > you're not going to buy a lot of new materials, concrete, etc. > > Question the assumptions. There are many and they are insideous. We have > fallen into these traps ourselves and it takes the shining and courageous > examples of others to show us the way out. > I appreciate this man's cob project, and while I am one of the infamous $150/sf builders out there, I also believe that this $15 house is within the range of possibilities. What I would like to know is, has a building inspector been visiting the job site? Does it have a permit? Has it been engineered? Does the owner support a family? Does he have health insurance? If the answers are no, then it relegates this type of project to the margins, out at the end of some dirt road. It reinforces my point, that these days, by and large, "green building" is relegated to either the very poor or the very wealthy. There is not a lot of room for the mainstream. I would love to hear about such projects, built within our legal system. Questioning the assumptions can be very powerful, but there are strong limits when working within our society. Do we advocvate total revolution in order to bring "sustainablility" to an unsustainable system? Do we stop paying all taxes because of the extent to which they support an oppressive and unfair political system? Once we start to accept a few of the limitations of the system, it gets harder and harder to not join in all the way. Is there any middle ground between nibbling around the edges and staying totally outside of the status quo? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 9 23:29:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA27809 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:29:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA23363; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:04:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:01:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23096 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:01:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23088 for ; Wed, 9 Sep 1998 23:00:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.131]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 5218600 ; Wed, 09 Sep 1998 20:15:39 -0800 Message-ID: <35F742C3.591E2D8@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 20:08:52 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Carter CC: DocPanic@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: green building costs References: <01bddc4c$073ff860$LocalHost@cowpen> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4396 Hi Mike I like your words but they are not generous enough to your time or culture of which you are a part. You own a computer, it is one aspect of choice and ownership and participation, i.e it plugs in, it rests on a desk, that rests on a floor, that resides in something. That something is a home that by and large can be recognized as such my most people as constituting a home. It will be recognized as a home because it contains a geometry a technology a large variety of commodities that signify home at this point in time. As always there is a lot that is missing but there is also a lot there. I like that you feel the need for difference and such feelings need community and community needs to establish those differences to become established within culture. I think it is important to establish such differentiation without terms such as brainwash or collusion because though it is important to establish difference these kind of terms are kind of arrogant and intolerant and can cause some degree of confusion as to objectives. best John Mike Carter wrote: > Just returned from a trip to Oregon where I met a man who is probably > half-way through building a small house, split level with a sleeping loft, > and has spent $15 so far. He figures that he will need several hundred > dollars for his roof, though. He uses found and recycled materials; the > walls are made out of Cob. It is a delightful structure that has the most > carefully designed living space I have ever seen. People have come from all > over the area to give him a hand with the construction. And wow, is it ever > "green". > > The hard truth about the costs of most building is that we have all been > brainwashed into thinking that we need things that we don't, and there is > massive collusion to make sure that we keep wanting those things so that we > will mortgage our souls and work for the rest of our lives to pay off our > expensive homes. The $ / sq. ft. measure encourages larger,more wasteful > homes. > Wealth is much of the problem - I know of single people building 3500 sq, > ft, homes to impress people at work. Bill Steen talks about building houses > for a few hundred dollars in Mexico. If you want to build cheaply, you're > headed in the right direction because if you don't spend a lot of money > you're not going to buy a lot of new materials, concrete, etc. > > Question the assumptions. There are many and they are insideous. We have > fallen into these traps ourselves and it takes the shining and courageous > examples of others to show us the way out. > > >In a message dated 98-09-03 22:37:47 EDT, you write: > > > ><< am I completely out of my mind to believe that I can actually > >do some green building with straw bale or ICF's that won't > >cost me an arm and a leg? >> > > > >I'd like to hear more on this topic too. If greenbuilding is to truly have > a > >lasting impact on the environment, then the incentives need to be there for > >the environmentally unconscious to say "Why the heck not build green if it > >doesn't cost any more." Having been involved in affordable housing > concerns > >over the past ten years, I am especially concerned about how the less > affluent > >can get left out when we think of cheaper housing. > > > >I am looking at building a house in the next 1.5 years that is going to go > >through the roof if I go totally green. How about the mantra "sustainable > and > >affordable" > > > >David Shaw > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 10 08:07:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA01301 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA05832; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:42:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:39:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA05531 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:38:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA05527 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:38:47 -0400 (EDT) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 1ZYWa27970 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:48:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <85e5d85f.35f7bcaa@aol.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:48:58 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: green building costs Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4397 In a message dated 98-09-09 21:32:32 EDT, cobcrew@sprynet.com writes: << Question the assumptions. There are many and they are insideous. We have fallen into these traps ourselves and it takes the shining and courageous examples of others to show us the way out. >> as a real estate appraiser I would like to second that !!!!!! Many times I have appraised LARGE houses in fancy subdivisions where many of the rooms have no furniture because the people cannot afford to furnish the house --- makes you wonder -- and yes I realize many appraisers create the problems because people think they need to build what will sell !!!!! welllllll, if you build small and efficient for yourself, and do not need a mortgage, then you do not need to worry about resale why do you need a large dining room that you use once a year ??? or a fancy living room, that no one can live in except guests ??? or three bathrooms for two people ( I appraised a two bedroom - three and a half bath house last week !!!!) Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 10 08:10:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA01327 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 08:10:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA06029; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:42:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA05764 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:42:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA05758 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:42:11 -0400 (EDT) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 1YCa018399 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:51:55 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8fb94e5f.35f7bd5b@aol.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:51:55 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: green building costs Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4398 In a message dated 98-09-09 23:04:32 EDT, you write: << What I would like to know is, has a building inspector been visiting the job site? Does it have a permit? Has it been engineered? Does the owner support a family? Does he have health insurance? If the answers are no, then it relegates this type of project to the margins, out at the end of some dirt road. It reinforces my point, that these days, by and large, "green building" is relegated to either the very poor or the very wealthy. There is not a lot of room for the mainstream. >> there are still large areas of this country where building inspectors are not -- in many areas of south central PA, there are no required inspections, or requirements for licensed subs, or certificates of occupancy --- in my township, you must get a building permit, but the only inspection that is done is before you cover the septic system --- same in central Vermont where my earth roofed house is Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 10 11:09:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03459 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 11:09:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13763; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:40:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13438 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:40:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13434 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:40:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.162.253.94] (d46.best1.net [205.162.253.66]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA32031 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:51:16 -0700 X-Sender: smcgrath@mail.best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 07:52:50 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: green building costs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4399 >there are still large areas of this country where building inspectors are not >-- in many areas of south central PA, there are no required inspections, or >requirements for licensed subs, or certificates of occupancy --- in my >township, you must get a building permit, but the only inspection that is done >is before you cover the septic system --- same in central Vermont where my >earth roofed house is Linda Lloyd and in one Central california city, an acquaintance has been told by the City that he cannot work on his own rental property because he is not a licenced contractor! ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 10 19:42:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA16154 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08225; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:16:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:11:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA07939 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:11:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from epud.org (www.epud.org [208.8.142.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07931 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:11:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default ([162.162.4.231]) by epud.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA02074 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:18:11 -0700 Message-Id: <199809102318.QAA02074@epud.org> From: "Dean Still" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: green building costs Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 16:26:50 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4400 We are building an 800 sf, two storey salt box to code with lumber milled on site, cellulose insulation, etc. which should end up costing about $20,000 at the Aprovecho Research Center. Labor is donated. I am sure that with a couple of years of study it will be possible to build an earthen, to code structure for about the same cost, maybe even a strawbale... There's no problem with the greenbuilding concept... we just have to spend the time and effort to do experiments and figure out how to do it. What it will take is physical experimentation because, IMO, the answers are not yet known. People were saying that earthen plasters that were more breathable would save straw bale buildings in moist climates. Now, evidence shows that even cement stucco may be too permeable, that rain touching the outside soaks right through. We need to do more experiments and less believing. Dean Still ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 10 23:03:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA18087 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 23:03:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA15618; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:39:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:35:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15377 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:35:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15372 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:35:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.16]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 5649400 ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:05:30 -0800 Message-ID: <35F88E4A.E9A0FEF2@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 19:43:22 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Planned community Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4401 A general question on planned community. Project is an intentional community the model is tentatively a hybrid of owned co-housing, co-operative rental, and senior (potentially a combination of both). A board structure to provide common management and to manage subsidy allocation for some rental units. At an early stage and would love some thoughts anything from wishlist to cautionary pragmatic tales. Location is rurban. thanks John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 11 01:39:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA19458 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:39:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA20356; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:14:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:10:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA20157 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:10:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA20153 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 01:10:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust192.tnt11.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.31.192]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA21938 for ; Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35F8B24E.6E5E@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 22:17:02 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: green building costs References: <85e5d85f.35f7bcaa@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4402 GrenSheltr@aol.com wrote: > Many times I > have appraised LARGE houses in fancy subdivisions where many of the rooms have > no furniture because the people cannot afford to furnish the house --- makes > you wonder -- Talk about a good place to question assumptions! I was just reading in Dona Fried's Sustainable Business Network some South African housing units at 570 sf each. We ourselves own a small house, at 555 sf, and it has plenty of room for simple living. I would love to be a builder of cottages and villages, on such a scale. I would think it would do a lot to develop a sense of community, in addition to consuming much less...I can already hear all you co-housing folks cheering. Last year I was approached by a prospective client who was interested in building a "green" house, at over 3500sf. After much discussion, I finally told her that the most green thing she could do was to eliminate half the building. By building smaller, can we better promote environmentally-sensitive building without becoming marginalized? While I question the mainstream effectiveness of cob cottages out at the end of some remote road, I also salute the pioneers doing it, and I also applaud the creative and inventive process of making less more. seth melchert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 11 04:48:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA20542 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 04:48:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA26533; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 04:24:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Sep 1998 04:20:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA26296 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 04:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA26284 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 04:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id EAA28154 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 04:30:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 04:30:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from esy10.vineyard.net(206.166.158.140) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma028146; Fri Sep 11 04:30:32 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35F7403D.3563@earthlink.net> References: <01bddc4c$073ff860$LocalHost@cowpen> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: green building costs and Bamboo Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4403 David melchert wrote: >Is there any middle ground between nibbling around the edges and staying >totally outside of the status quo? Plenty - from the outer edges in. We're all bustin' our tails, every one of us, finding that ground, exploring it, expanding it. We need the edges desperately - both the $15 labor-of-love cob cave and the $3,000,000 eco-toy mansion - and we need all the pragmatic Ungers and Melcherts of the world just as much and more. Keep nibbling, keep lifting the mainstream. The dialogue lately has been inspiring - I've been otherwise overwhelmed and unable to comment. But I've been following with great admiration, and just wanted to offer this bit of encouragement and gratitude. Keep it up - always much to be learned and discovered here! Our greatest strength may be the ignorance that drives us to keep asking questions. Does anybody know much about varieties of bamboo (there are supposedly 1000) that have the following qualities: 1) will thrive in the Northeast US; 2) are controllable (not so invasive as some); 3) are big nitrogen eaters; and 4) make useful lumber products and where I could learn more? Thanks John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 11 06:54:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA21388 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 06:54:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA01756; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 06:28:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Sep 1998 06:24:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA01334 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 06:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA01327 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 06:24:38 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 1TOAa09043 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 06:34:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 06:34:21 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: green building costs Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4404 I couldn't agree more about Seth's efforts at encouraging clients to reduce the size and number of toys in their eco mansions. As for the 500 square foot home, it is also a wonderful idea. I've designed a couple in that range that haven't been built. The problems I see are: 1) Land costs alone force most buyers to bring a bank to the party, 2) Banks like to see something with high enough resale potential that they can sell it for 90% or less of the appraised value and still get their money out if they have to forclose on you. 3) It is hard to get the appraisal values to line up to all the magic formulas with a very small house. I am sure Linda can fill us in more about the frustrations of trying to make a positive influence on all the built in assumptions of the appraisal industry. 4) Costs on a per square footage basis are much higher on smaller spaces. You still have every trade involved, you still have all the infrastructure and lot improvements to put in place, you still have the big costs of kitchen and bath, etc. While it can clearly be less expensive overall to build a small house rather than a big house. It get's hard for the buyers to justify a lot of the tradeoffs when they look at the bottom line influence on their monthly payments. Examples: While I can build a home for $75 to $80 per square foot. I once built a small conservatory that cost over $350 per square foot. I recently lost money on a job where the owner insisted on jambing the proverbial ten pounds of "sh*t in a five pound bag, kept on wanting more and more and I was too foolish to walk away. Though it billed out over $110 per square foot, it should have been at least $150. There are so many systemic obstacles to building small high quality beautiful and efficient spaces, that most of us that try end up subsidizing the effort in some major way. The biggest obstacle is that despite all the wonderful opinion on this list, more than 95% of my potential clients want far more than their budgets can support, tend to want more rather than less space and features, and are often eager to have the green stuff be the first compromise. I hold the line as much as possible, but end up paying in losts sale and profits for building in the way I beleive is right. Until the economy readjusts reality I am looking to you folks for inspiring answers. Being part of this list is a lot like going to church to make sure I am constantly reminded of what is right and good. While John calls my views "pragmatic", many of my subcontractors, regulators and potential customers think I am wasting money on wild crazy ideas for the little baby green steps I include in my projects. Please keep the great ideas coming. I sure need them. If we figure out how to make green building cost less rather than more in the context of the existing infrastructure of the industry then we really will win. For those building the super inexpensive DIY projects, I am hoping you can discover and share some answers and ideas that we can use in the context of conventional construction, so go for it. Thanks again to all, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 11 08:01:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA21778 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 08:01:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA03211; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:36:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:33:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA03015 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:33:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA03011 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:33:03 -0400 (EDT) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 1CJJa27969 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:42:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 07:42:54 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: green building costs/appraisals Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4405 In a message dated 98-09-11 06:37:03 EDT, FUnger@aol.com writes: << 1) Land costs alone force most buyers to bring a bank to the party, 3) It is hard to get the appraisal values to line up to all the magic formulas with a very small house. I am sure Linda can fill us in more about the frustrations of trying to make a positive influence on all the built in assumptions of the appraisal industry. >> with bank mergers etc., in many parts of the country it is more and more difficult to find lenders that hold their mortgages and thence have more flexibility - in my area there are now only two local banks that do not sell to the secondary mortgage market, hence we appraisers run into those regs when appraising innovative houses --- land values generally cannot exceed 35% of the total --- e.g. for a $150000 package, the land cannot exceed $50000. (In HIGH land value places this can get waived as standard for the area but will kick out a lot of other people) --- rooms must ALL have a direct heat source -- gross living area means levels that are COMPLETELY above grade (not bermed etc.) -- bedrooms must be completely private (no lofts - need walls and doors and a closet) - floor plans with 2nd fl bedrooms and only a first floor bath are considered functionally obsolete -- lack of a second bath or a garage or a basement in some areas of the country can also be considered functionally obsolete --- if you depart from the above, you will generally be required to have two comps with the similar situation to prove to the bank that it is marketable --- this must be a house that SOLD, not just one that was owner built --- and generally within the last 6 mos and for suburban within 3 miles and for rural within 5 miles of your subject property -- makes it tough Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 11 09:48:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22721 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:48:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07248; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:23:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:20:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07002 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:20:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06998 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:20:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPVGT; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:39:08 -0400 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDDD66.383BFCA0@Walnut.babb.com>; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:26:13 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDDD66.383BFCA0@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'GBLIST'" Subject: GBlist: green building costs Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:26:07 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA06999 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4406 Fred wrote: <> Just wanted to say that I know what you mean... and I read this list for similar reasons. It seems as if people want green houses (even around here, in this suburban sprawl, there is an interest), but don't want to spend the money. I guess it is the same old problem: the priority is self, not environment. Maybe the urgent need for greener practices is not taken to heart... Perhaps they are in denial about the effects toxic products have on themselves, their children, their pets... The *lack of effects* is really an intangible product, you know... While big spaces, guest rooms, and golf course backyards are physically there, and highly valued. I believe that in addition to lowered prices for green building products (at least to make them more competitive with traditional products), there needs to be a more comprehensive (as in deeply affecting more people) change in attitude. Not only should recycled products, etc, be made more available and affordable, but people should break from their addiction to convenience! If the recycling bin is not nearby, they should walk to it instead of sighing and tossing their recyclables into the garbage can. It just seems you cannot make it too easy for some people. And here is another problem I'll relate through anecdote: Yesterday, my sister said something like this, "I remember seeing our grandmother drying dishes with paper towels, one paper towel for each dish. I remember thinking She Sure Is Rich!" Our barriers: Conspicuous consumption, Pure Laziness, and the other one that is often chosen for us: Lack of Funds. I admire everyone who is pushing beyond those barriers. I am also looking to ya'll for examples! Now that my work involves the construction industry, I want to do the best I can to green the things I touch... in the office, manufacturing plant, and construction site. Thank-you for the insights and advice. Jillanna Babb-Cheshul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 11 09:58:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22838 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:58:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07782; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:34:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:30:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07509 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:30:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07505 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:30:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPVGW; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:49:34 -0400 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDDD67.AD2FC180@Walnut.babb.com>; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:36:39 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDDD67.AD2FC180@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'GBLIST'" Subject: GBlist: landscape Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:36:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA07506 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4407 Hello everyone. Can anyone help me with this? Our manufacturing plant sits on a hill at a 50-year-old lumber yard. It is very dusty up there... However, bushes, trees (esp. Mimosa trees), and other plants as well as wildlife (birds, skunks, raccoons, cats) live there too. I have two concerns: 1) How to cut down on the dustiness (forklifts and trucks cause it to fill the air... and cover the greenery, etc) or if it is better left alone. 2) There is a bare hillside with no plants on it at all. I would like to plant some greenery there, if possible. The hill is steep, consisting of dry red dirt that has rivulets from water run-off. How difficult is it to replant a hill like that? Anybody know some sturdy hill-loving types of plants and trees? I suppose we would need to stop erosion somehow. Perhaps we would dig some sort of layers, or put logs in place? What to do? I would appreciate any good ideas for my project greatly. Jillanna Babb-Cheshul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 11 10:14:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA23070 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08785; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:50:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:46:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA08320 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:46:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08313 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:46:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.198.23.74] (uA1-c9.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.74]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA05485 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:56:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:56:53 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35F88E4A.E9A0FEF2@cow-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Planned community Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4408 John, I like the question. The hippo of recollection is flicking it's ears in the primordial swamp of my memory. My experience in communes and landtrusts leads me to the following: 1) the technical problems are easily solved by bright folks after 2) strong hearts have figured out the direction they want to go. I'd get ahold of "Marshall B. Rosenberg" at the Center for Nonviolent Communication and have him come give a one day workshop. It'll give folks an idea of what they're in for and how to see it through without actual murder being involved. >A general question on planned community. Project is an intentional >community the model is tentatively a hybrid of owned co-housing, >co-operative rental, and senior (potentially a combination of both). A >board structure to provide common management and to manage subsidy >allocation for some rental units. >At an early stage and would love some thoughts anything from wishlist to >cautionary pragmatic tales. Location is rurban. > >thanks >John > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 11 12:03:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24555 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:03:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14531; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:37:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:34:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14188 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:33:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nov.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14184 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:33:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.82] (p82.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.82]) by nov.diac.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA17492 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 15:44:50 GMT Message-Id: <199809111544.PAA17492@nov.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #308 Date: Fri, 11 Sep 98 09:44:45 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4409 On 9/11/98 12:00 AM John Salmen wrote: >A general question on planned community. Project is an intentional >community the model is tentatively a hybrid of owned co-housing, >co-operative rental, and senior (potentially a combination of both). A >board structure to provide common management and to manage subsidy >allocation for some rental units. >At an early stage and would love some thoughts anything from wishlist to >cautionary pragmatic tales. Location is rurban. Don't do it (just kidding). Although this List is composed of engineers and designers who's natural response will be technical solutions, my first response is that your crux issues will be social. The greenbuilding part will be easy by comparison. The aspects of social design are a field in itself. Make sure you read the seminal text, "Cohousing, A Contemporary Approach To Housing Ourselves". There are numerous others. Do the developers wish the future residents to have a stake, to feel a part of, to "buy-in" as we say, into this project? This is a big issue that should be addressed before anything else. The usual model is for the developer to create the entire physical community, and then simply sell buildings. This will not create a Community (in the larger sense of the word), which is fine, but again, make sure you/they are clear on this. If the concept includes resident involvement, then study, plan, and allocate just as much time for this "soft" design as for the "hard" design. Buzz Burrell Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 11 12:18:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24773 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15369; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:52:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:49:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA15069 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:49:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15065 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 11:49:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust3.tnt2.clearwater.fl.gt.uu.net [208.255.244.3]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id KAA05360; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 10:59:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35F949C0.53E@gte.net> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:03:12 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Planned community References: <35F88E4A.E9A0FEF2@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4410 John, You may want to look at the plans for Civano, AZ, and Coffee Creek, IN. Both are attempts to combine sustainability and new urbanism. The July/August issue of In Business has an article on them and Civano has a web site. Cindy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 11 13:27:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25799 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 13:27:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18877; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 13:01:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:57:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18456 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:57:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from poppy ([205.159.28.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18433 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 12:57:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by poppy from localhost (router,SLMail V2.6); Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:07:19 -0800 Received: by poppy from [198.185.228.68] (198.185.228.68::mail daemon,SLMail V2.6); Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:07:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 09:11:16 -0800 To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" From: "SCOTT WATERMAN" X-From-OfficeVision: "SCOTT WATERMAN" Subject: GBlist: RE: greenbuilding-digest V2 #308 Message-Id: <905533876-0-swaterma@AHFC.STATE.AK.US> Importance: medium X-Mailer: IBM Internet Messaging Framework Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Id: <905533876-1-swaterma@AHFC.STATE.AK.US> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA18452 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4411 << Question the assumptions. There are many and they are insidious. We have fallen into these traps ourselves and it takes the shining and courageous examples of others to show us the way out. >> <> I too like the idea of smaller, more logically planned spaces. A small house is far more affordable, there is money to do some very nice upgrades, using materials that are far more appropriate, even though they cost a bit more per square foot. Cutting a 3500 sf house in half will save some big bucks, and the result will be far more livable in most cases. A cherry home of 1500 sf will sell far quicker than a "standard" home of 2500. Scott Waterman Weatherization Program Manager Alaska Housing Finance Corporation PO Box 101020 Anchorage, Alaska 99510-1020 907-330-8195 Voice 907-338-1747 Fax - ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 11 16:40:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA00314 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:40:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28260; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:15:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:11:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA27995 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27990 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:11:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Marcoplos@aol.com Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id FYFPa18400; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 16:21:05 EDT To: jabrams@vineyard.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: green building costs and Bamboo Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4412 To add to the bamboo question, does anyone know of a variety that could be grown for lumber in the SE. There's a whole lot of tobacco farmers who need a new crop. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 11 20:29:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA02669 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:29:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA06995; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:05:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:00:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA06759 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:00:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06755 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:00:15 -0400 (EDT) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 1YDZa02819 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:10:17 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:10:17 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Healthy Builder in TX? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4413 Today I received a call from a woman in Texas who, with her sister, is planning a residential add-on for their ailing mother. They are looking for a reponsible builder familiar with low toxic materials and indoor air quality issues for people with Multiple Chemical Sensitivities. Anyone know of a healthy building contractor in the Kerrville, TX area (north of San Antonio)? Please respond directly to the parties involved: Claire Zively or Jane Longmier email: janel@hilconet.com phone: 830-896-4459 fax: 830-896-3688 Thanks for any ideas you may have. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant Berkeley, CA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 11 21:48:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA03312 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 21:48:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09782; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 21:23:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Sep 1998 21:18:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA09473 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 21:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09468 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 21:18:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust59.tnt13.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.36.59]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA09282; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 18:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35F9CD8B.12DE@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 18:25:31 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: green building costs and Bamboo References: <01bddc4c$073ff860$LocalHost@cowpen> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4414 John Abrams wrote: > > Does anybody know much about varieties of bamboo (there are supposedly > 1000) that have the following qualities: > > 1) will thrive in the Northeast US; > 2) are controllable (not so invasive as some); > 3) are big nitrogen eaters; and > 4) make useful lumber products > > and where I could learn more? Thanks > > John > Marcoplos@aol.com wrote: > > To add to the bamboo question, does anyone know of a variety that could be > grown for lumber in the SE. There's a whole lot of tobacco farmers who need a > new crop. > > Mark > For bamboo questions, you might contact Darrel DeBoer at DDarrelD@aol.com He is an architect here in the Bay Area, deeply involved with promoting bamboo. Also a board member of the local ADPSR. seth melchert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 11 23:13:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA04153 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 23:13:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12256; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:48:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:44:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA11865 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:43:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA11859 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.150] (rkd22.acadia.net [205.217.217.150]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA16587 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:54:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:54:10 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: green building costs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4415 Perhaps one of the reasons that Americans waste space is that they don't value it enough, because they're used to buying it cheap. In most of Europe, gasoline costs about $3 to $4 dollars a gallon, and so people use it thoughtfully. Buildings routinely cost $150 to $300 a square foot - a big chunk of typical European income - and so people there treat built space with more reverence. Price per square foot is meaningless by itself. A deeper question: how much of your life energy should you put into creating your habitat? I have deep admiration for the $15/sq. ft. cob builder, not because he built a "cheap" house, but because he turned sweat and muscle into habitat. I also admire someone who knows their wants and doesn't whine about having to pay for them. And I admire someone who, lacking funds, doesn't whine about what they don't have but either learns to want less or learns to contribute work him-or-her-self. Fred's (and other's) heartfelt dilemma seems to me to be about the vast majority of Americans who want more than they can afford, whine about it, and then try to solve the "problem" by avoiding responsibility - by making the built environment out of shit, or by screwing the folks who actually do the work. I think that an ecological conciousness starts with understanding consequences and accepting responsibility. Where does one see these characteristics today? Actually - about admiring those who want and will pay: it depends on what they want. Once in a blue moon, we encounter someone with resources and values. Rare, but fun. Most of the time, I'm reminded of my late mother's saying that she didn't mind people with more money than her, except when they had less taste. And I'm remined of my Dad's saying that everybody always wants to share the wealth - with all those who have MORE than they do. Sorry for the rant. I think the subject of affordability touches a raw nerve in many of us. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 11 23:13:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA04156 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 23:13:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12260; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:49:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:44:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA11874 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:43:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA11864 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:43:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.150] (rkd22.acadia.net [205.217.217.150]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA16595 for ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:54:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:54:14 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Costs and Appraisals Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4416 I think some months ago, we were discussing "leverage points" - forces acting for or against Environmental Building - and there was some discussion about the role of appraisals and mortgage-lending policies as a key "leverage point". Linda Lloyd's comments convince me more than ever that we need to begin campaigns to change the assumptions and biases of the mortgage and appraisal industry. I think other key "leverage points" are in the areas of property development, the management of construction, and the role of hardware stores and lumberyards telling consumers what "standard" construction is. What do other people think? What forces make the built environment the way it is? And what are the best "leverage points" for causing change? Are they large scale or local? Economic or cultural? Technical or spiritual? I'm stumped, so I'd really like to hear other opinions. Thanks. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 12 02:25:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA05558 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 02:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA18513; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 02:01:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 12 Sep 1998 01:55:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA18013 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 01:55:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA18000 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 01:54:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.22]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 6127900 ; Fri, 11 Sep 1998 23:43:14 -0800 Message-ID: <35FA0E9B.C9F80C35@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 1998 23:03:07 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: green building costs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4417 Hi David You have hit a few nails tonight. Some very quotable thoughts, thank you. I have been my own client this summer and it was interesting as our finances are small and the house in serious need of renewal. We own a 50's beater about 1200 sq. ft. and have two young children. The irony is that my building projects are very different than a 2x4 50's box. The temptation was strong to begin over again within my own vocabulary and I even looked at having the house physically moved away. In the end I had to face designing for the existing building and space and it became a challenge to work within the existing footage. The temptation is strong to add the perfect space but in all honesty what was needed was a renewal of what was there and in adding we (as many of my clients have done despite protests) would have failed to seriously improve or maintain the existing. Concurrent with my need to improve my own place (with the hidden urge to expand) I have had to work to find some solutions for my aging parents trapped in a house that is far too large for them to maintain in a market that allows them no mobility to move to a smaller space. A good perspective to maintain. I added no space and in the end found quite a luxury in the existing space. There are very few elements from my ideal wish list but I managed to increase a solar potential, add some mass and insulation, use good materials and finishes, increase usable space. Its a happy and affordable result and one that will wear well. Some leftover money will be used to build a very small residence (about 450 sq. ft.) on our property suitable for rental or housing parents. My company did the construction and I charged us full rates (I contributed the design but then I usually do on most projects) so green affordability is not unworkable, its generally more a question of limiting expectations on some aspects of finish rather than essentials. I liked your comment about how much energy should go into habitat. Most of my energy is directed into defining habitat (for others) and in the area that I live there is a certain amount of irony in what I do in that a mere 150 years ago in this area no one would have asked the question ' what type of house should I build ' much less 'what should it look like' . Now a long house might not be an appropriate solution at this point for the bulk of the populace for this region but it did manage for a few thousand years with little variation. Most of our habitat is being built out of shit and It is truly depressing not just because of material consequences but because of the lives lived in such truly impoverished circumstances. despite the apparent wealth. The consequences and responsibilities you speak of I think are being felt albeit indirectly. John David M. Foley wrote: > Perhaps one of the reasons that Americans waste space is that they don't > value it enough, because they're used to buying it cheap. > > In most of Europe, gasoline costs about $3 to $4 dollars a gallon, and so > people use it thoughtfully. Buildings routinely cost $150 to $300 a square > foot - a big chunk of typical European income - and so people there treat > built space with more reverence. > > Price per square foot is meaningless by itself. A deeper question: how > much of your life energy should you put into creating your habitat? > > I have deep admiration for the $15/sq. ft. cob builder, not because he > built a "cheap" house, but because he turned sweat and muscle into habitat. > I also admire someone who knows their wants and doesn't whine about having > to pay for them. And I admire someone who, lacking funds, doesn't whine > about what they don't have but either learns to want less or learns to > contribute work him-or-her-self. > > Fred's (and other's) heartfelt dilemma seems to me to be about the vast > majority of Americans who want more than they can afford, whine about it, > and then try to solve the "problem" by avoiding responsibility - by making > the built environment out of shit, or by screwing the folks who actually > do the work. > > I think that an ecological conciousness starts with understanding > consequences and accepting responsibility. Where does one see these > characteristics today? > > Actually - about admiring those who want and will pay: it depends on what > they want. Once in a blue moon, we encounter someone with resources and > values. Rare, but fun. Most of the time, I'm reminded of my late mother's > saying that she didn't mind people with more money than her, except when > they had less taste. > > And I'm remined of my Dad's saying that everybody always wants to share the > wealth - with all those who have MORE than they do. > > Sorry for the rant. I think the subject of affordability touches a raw > nerve in many of us. > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 12 08:18:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA07158 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:18:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA24355; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:52:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:46:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA23895 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA23891 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:46:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.98] (ka3-98.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.98]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA11312 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:57:11 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 03:01:05 -0400 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Owner builders Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id HAA23892 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4418 Sgrìobh Caaradrbl@aol.com: >On Thu, 03 Sep 1998 11:11:06 -0500 Sacie Lambertson wrote: >>>our care and attention to detail leaves a better built house than we would >get had we left it entirely to those folks who do it for a living. Of >course there are some exceptions and I truly admire the good people. But we >can afford the time to do it right, to plug all the holes, make sure the >lines are really plumb and in general do a frankly better job than do many >in the trades.<< > >I guess as a professional I take great exception to this. Construction, like >any other Profession, requires not just attention to details. All the >attention to details in the world won't build a car that I would drive 60 MPH >in. I feel that much of construction gets reduced to the idea that anybody >can just pick up a hammer and build a house. Houses are complex and each is >unique in it's own way. The solutions to the problems take years of >experience and training. It's not all in the books by a long shot. That >experience lets us build using fewer materials (less waste) and more >appropriate materials better suited to the task. Greater attention to the >details that are really important and result in a structure that lasts longer, >needs fewer repairs, and less overall maintenance. Cabins in the woods are >great to build for summer homes (with only rudimentary mechanicals), but year >round buildings are complex buggers with lots of stuff hidden in walls that >impact each other. Somehow the ideal of the "Craftsman" has been buried by >the concept of DIY. In the long run, hiring a knowledgeable professional to >do the work can be much more "Green" because of reduced maintenance, longer >life span, greater energy efficiency, and greater attention to the important >details. >Rick Darfler I have to side with Sacie on this one. True, owner-builders will make mistakes. However, if my own experience is any example, they spend an overwhelming amount of time doing research and learning about the areas which particularly interest them. They are strongly motivated to do it right the first time, since they have to live directly with the consequences. I have taken special care with several items, or added another redundancy, even when knowledgeable people told me that it was probably unnecessary. I'm going to have to live with it. As an example of economy: I just recently buried my septic system. I had a contractor bring in the dirt and mound it appropriately, because with a couple of hours on his bulldozer he could save me two weeks of shoveling. He left me with a lovely prepared area in which I could bed the drains, the center of which was graded concrete sand. He told me that I might need another half-load of concrete sand (about $80). I eyeballed it and speculated that I had just about enough. He said, "Yeah, I suppose if you do it by hand." Three days ago I spent two hours shoveling concrete sand over the in-drains. I had a little bit more than enough. But if I'd been using a bulldozer I would not have had enough. The hand placement of each shovel reduced waste. So with two hours of labor I saved $80. Not bad. He could not have done that for me, because from his perspective it would have been more efficient (time) to do it with a bulldozer. Now I get him back in there to cover it over, because there's no reason for me to hand-place every shovel-full of dirt on top. I've also saved a great deal of money by lining the constructed stream with fist-sized rock which popped up when we excavated. He would have brought it in by the truckload and pushed it out with machinery. I gathered it on the site and placed it by hand. Took me longer, but cost nothing and resulted in less disturbance of the area around the stream. Likewise with the rubble trench foundation, where I put rock back into the trench which I had dug out of it. Each one placed by hand. It would not have been worth it for a professional, because it would cost too much by the hour to do it that way. A professional knows how to build a wide variety of houses. An owner-builder knows how to build one house, and learns and makes mistakes as he goes. But he only needs to know how to build one, and as long as he's willing to ask questions, and willing to solicit opinions from the various professionals who are involved (whoever does the subcontracting which the owner can't or doesn't want to do), he'll very likely avoid any serious problems which can't be fixed. And when it does need fixing, he'll know exactly how to do it, because he did it the first time. That's not to say that professionals can't build excellent houses. They can. They do. But they also sometimes build houses which are merely adequate, or inadequate. It's not unreasonable to think that a careful owner-builder can do better than that; plenty of people have done it. Does this work better for small, simple houses? You bet. I'm building a house just under 800 square feet, and because of that many of the inter-related systems to which you refer are greatly simplified, or eliminated. For a larger, more complex house, I'd consult even more with professionals, and might hire a general contractor or an architect. (And if all goes according to plan, that's exactly what will happen when I build the bigger house and the current one becomes the accessory apartment.) -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 12 08:25:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA07184 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:25:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24710; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:00:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:55:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA24454 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA24450 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 07:55:38 -0400 (EDT) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 1LCJa20020 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:05:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <472fb1b5.35fa6397@aol.com> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:05:43 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: green building costs Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4419 In a message dated 98-09-11 23:11:04 EDT, dmfoley@acadia.net writes: << Price per square foot is meaningless by itself. A deeper question: how much of your life energy should you put into creating your habitat? >> AND on that topic I can highly recommend the book - Your Money or Your Life --Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 12 08:32:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA07231 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25017; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:08:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:03:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24776 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:03:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24771 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:03:21 -0400 (EDT) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 1WOJa20020; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:13:22 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4906c0a9.35fa6562@aol.com> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 08:13:22 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: hfoesch@mindspring.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Costs and Appraisals Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4420 In a message dated 98-09-11 23:11:52 EDT, dmfoley@acadia.net writes: << we need to begin campaigns to change the assumptions and biases of the mortgage and appraisal industry. >> on a local basis - getting an appraisal through a lender on a "different" house will likely depend on finding a local appraiser who knows enough about energy efficient and green building techniques to write a back-up letter for the appraisal that the mortgage company underwriter will accept and feel her/his butt is covered -- perhaps those of you who want to make a stab at a difference can have seminars or classes for local realtors and appraisers -- start with a call to the local board of realtors or local appraisal chapter of the Appraisal Institute-- if you can develop a 4 hr or 7 hr class that can be certified for continuing education credits, you'll get more attendance would be glad to help anyone who wants to try tp put something together the secondary mortgage market GUIDELINES are just that - not hard and fast rules, a willing appraiser who can justify departing from those guidelines CAN get mortgages through for you Linda Lloyd Note - GMAC mortgage has started a special program for energy efficient houses ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 12 10:27:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07828 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:27:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26611; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:01:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:56:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26336 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:56:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from AICS.NET (aics.net [209.21.198.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26331 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 09:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.21.198.42] ([209.21.198.42]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 7478000 ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:10:32 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:14:39 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: Re: bamboo Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4421 Bamboo! Moso is the thick-walled variety grown in the NW and in the SE and used for construction somewhat, altho' the new book Bamboo Rediscovered (by Aussie authors) recommends other varieties. Moso is not hardy in the NE. (Altho' perhaps in a greenhouse... but that would make it expensive, and would require a very large greenhouse.) In the Northeast, phyllostachys varieties are the hardiest. Contact grower Chris DeRosa in Rockport, MA for details. And on the Cape, Earle Barnhart could chat with you about his experiences growing bamboo at the old New Alchemy site. This would have to be made into particle board--I think flooring and paneling companies use thicker-walled varieties. And then there's the whole controversy about curing it. Check out the clumping (vs. running) varieties. Best, contain it (yes, this can be done). You can assure the neighbors that the likelihood of bamboo reseeding itself is next to nil. Here in the U.S., the bamboo market is not very well developed. Most of it is still imported from Asia. Researchers in Canada are working on formulas for engineered lumber products using many varieties of bamboo. Bamboo appears to take up nitrogen in a big way, but no one seems to have specific test data on this. Perhaps some researchers in China do. There are several schemes in the works to use bamboo as part of waste treatment and manure management systems--mostly in the South and PNW (several in central America). The idea is to harvest it and make building materials. North Carolina State Univ. should be piloting a project like this soon, altho' they are skittish about it due to the high cost of the bamboo plants. An international congress on bamboo will be held in November in Costa Rica. There will be a few presentations on this topic. For now, in the Northeast, perhaps bamboo's greatest potential is to help reduce waste treatment costs, provide a little cattle fodder, and make great trellises and fences. Carol Steinfeld ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 12 11:27:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08336 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:27:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27956; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:02:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:57:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27647 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:57:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27643 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.198.23.4] (uA1-a3.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.4]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA07835 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:08:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4422 Something I know about bamboo that is important, but is easy to miss until it's to late. Bamboo is a grass which propogates vegetatively, sending out runners. It's a pioneer species with an exponential growth curve. If you don't confine the root system at the edges, it can easily overwhelm all the species in a field. In my life I've seen elms and beech disappear to imported species, kudzu claim the south, japanese beetles claim the rose garden and now there're at least two outbreaks of chinese staghorn beetle, against which most of the remaining hardwoods have no defense. I make the plee to not move exotic species around wholesale. - Terry >To add to the bamboo question, does anyone know of a variety that could be >grown for lumber in the SE. There's a whole lot of tobacco farmers who need a >new crop. > >Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 12 11:45:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08427 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:45:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28543; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:20:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:15:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28251 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:15:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28247 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:15:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on5-21.netcom.ca [207.181.91.85]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11498; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199809121522.LAA11498@tor-smtp1.netcom.ca> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 10:17:17 -0400 To: GrenSheltr@aol.com From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: green building costs Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <472fb1b5.35fa6397@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4423 At 08:05 AM 12/09/98 -0400, Linda Lloyd wrote:

>>...=A0 A deeper question: how
> much of your life energy should you put into creating your habitat? >>
>
>AND on that topic I can highly recommend the book - Your Money or Your Life
>--Linda Lloyd

another good one on that topic is the essay by J.W. Smith:
Wasted Time, Wasted Wealth

http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC37/Smith.htm

Best..........Norbert Senf

----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org
Masonry Stove Builders  
RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb  &= nbsp;
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092
         
       
          

______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 12 16:09:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA10434 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 16:09:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02188; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:44:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:39:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01743 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:39:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01736 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 15:39:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id MAA12797 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 12:49:53 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 12 Sep 1998 12:48:17 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: Cost To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA01738 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4424 The thread that Laura started about smaller houses, and affordability, made me want to track down the xact quote from Thoreau's Walden about "cost". My copy has apparently been liberated by a friend, so I went to Project Gutenberg and downloaded a copy. You could do the same, then send a contribution. And here is what HDT said: "If it is asserted that civilization is a real advance in the condition of man -- and I think that it is, though only the wise improve their advantages -- it must be shown that it has produced better dwellings without making them more costly; and the cost of a thing is the amount of what I will call life which is required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run." I had forgotten that he was talking about dwellings; I just remembered the idea of cost being the amount of life exchanged for something. Perhaps this should be pointed out to those who feel the need for 3BR/4.5BAs. (Or the SUVs, cell phones, call waiting, 500 channels of shit...and so forth, ad infinitum.) I soon was lost, reading Walden, again, for perhaps the 5th time in my life. One more quote, and perhaps some of you will want to read it yourselves for the first or fifth time; and remember it was written over 150 years ago: "Most men appear never to have considered what a house is, and are actually though needlessly poor all their lives because they think that they must have such a one as their neighbors have. As if one were to wear any sort of coat which the tailor might cut out for him, or, gradually leaving off palm-leaf hat or cap of woodchuck skin, complain of hard times because he could not afford to buy him a crown! It is possible to invent a house still more convenient and luxurious than we have, which yet all would admit that man could not afford to pay for. Shall we always study to obtain more of these things, and not sometimes to be content with less? Shall the respectable citizen thus gravely teach, by precept and example, the necessity of the young man's providing a certain number of superfluous glow-shoes, and umbrellas, and empty guest chambers for empty guests, before he dies? Why should not our furniture be as simple as the Arab's or the Indian's? When I think of the benefactors of the race, whom we have apotheosized as messengers from heaven, bearers of divine gifts to man, I do not see in my mind any retinue at their heels, any carload of fashionable furniture.... At present our houses are cluttered and defiled with it, and a good housewife would sweep out the greater part into the dust hole, and not leave her morning's work undone. Morning work! By the blushes of Aurora and the music of Memnon, what should be man's morning work in this world? I had three pieces of limestone on my desk, but I was terrified to find that they required to be dusted daily, when the furniture of my mind was all undusted still, and threw them out the window in disgust. How, then, could I have a furnished house? I would rather sit in the open air, for no dust gathers on the grass, unless where man has broken ground." Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 12 23:39:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA14165 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:39:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA15307; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:15:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:10:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA14987 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:09:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA14983 for ; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:09:48 -0400 (EDT) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 9YAPa09043; Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:19:44 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <1e66adeb.35fb39d0@aol.com> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 23:19:44 EDT To: jean_gallagher@macgate.csuchico.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Cost Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4425 Jean, Your quote from Thoreau <<"Most men appear never to have considered what a house is>> came just in time to be both the inspiration and the closing thought of my latest advertisement. Thanks In the local "Real Estate Book" full of lousy pictures and stupid real estate industry adjectives, I've tried to make our company stand out a bit with a nice sketch and "bullets" about natural daylighting, passive solar heating, custom design, community, healthy houses, etc. At the end of each monthly ad is a short educational "example" under the heading "Making Decisions About Your Home". Seems to be working in attracting good folks. Anyone else out there with more inspiring short quotes? Thanks again to all. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 13 08:58:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA17657 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 08:58:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25321; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 08:33:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Sep 1998 08:27:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA25042 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 08:27:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eypdc04.eypae.com (eypdc04.eypae.com [205.234.22.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA25035 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 08:27:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by eypdc04.eypae.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 08:39:35 -0400 Message-ID: From: Mike Fowler To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Bamboo Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 08:24:48 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4426 For those looking and interested in more information about bamboo. American Bamboo Society 2020 SW 12 Ave. Miami FL 33129 Email: khigbi@solix.fiv.edu web: http://www.bamboo.org/abs/ I looked on the website and there are regional (U.S.) chapters and international chapters to contact for more information about the local chapter and where to buy bamboo in your area. Darrel DeBoer conducts bamboo building workshops with bamboo grower and consultant Gib Cooper, at the Real Goods Solar Living Center in Hopland, CA. (800) 919-2400. Information is from ED&C magazine, bamboo article by Carol Steinfeld. Also, check out the article by Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski on his Alberta Sustainable Home/Office. Mike Fowler Albany, NY past postings: John Abrams wrote: > > Does anybody know much about varieties of bamboo (there are supposedly > 1000) that have the following qualities: > > 1) will thrive in the Northeast US; > 2) are controllable (not so invasive as some); > 3) are big nitrogen eaters; and > 4) make useful lumber products > > and where I could learn more? Thanks > > John > Marcoplos@aol.com wrote: > > To add to the bamboo question, does anyone know of a variety that could be > grown for lumber in the SE. There's a whole lot of tobacco farmers who need a > new crop. > > Mark > For bamboo questions, you might contact Darrel DeBoer at DDarrelD@aol.com He is an architect here in the Bay Area, deeply involved with promoting bamboo. Also a board member of the local ADPSR. seth melchert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 13 09:55:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17898 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 09:55:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26412; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 09:31:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Sep 1998 09:26:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26119 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 09:26:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu (root@xipe-totec.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26115 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 09:26:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from angle.cacr.caltech.edu (angle.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.72]) by mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA21365 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 06:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199809131336.GAA21365@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> X-Sender: mac@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 06:31:58 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Barbara Lamprecht Subject: Re: GBlist: Cost In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4427 To Jean Gallagher's quotes from Thoreau's musings, may I recommend a book by Ann Cline called A Hut of One's Own: Life Outside the Circle of Architecture. (MIT, 1997). Following her example, I'll offer a few quotes: " ... this book is also an essay that attempts to overturn Architecture's victory over Individual Experience. Here we will look at dwellings that were not well attuned to the architecture of their era and at their builders, whose lives may instead have been ahead of their time, as if their very inability to march in step raised exactly those cultural issues that later on became helpful." Describing the term 'wabi sabi' -- (appreciating the imperfection in things generated by time and use) she writes: " Roughly translated, 'wabi' meant poverty, or not to be in the fashionable society of the time ... to be satisfied with a little hut, like the log cabin in Thoreau, and with a dish of vegetables picked in the neighboring fields." Thoreau's exasperation with things needing to be dusted also reminds me of Viennese architect Adolf Loos's searing essay "Ornament and Crime" (1909 or 10) in which he advocates a return to clarity and simplicity, despairing of the Victorian obsession with stuff. For Loos that did not mean a mean-spirited or cold Modernism -- but an adroit admiration of well-honed spaces and materials. Loos in turn was a mentor to architect Richard Neutra, who emigrated to Los Angeles and who advocated and built dwellings that were smaller AND better in their relationship to nature. He started writing about the implications of suburban sprawl in the 40s. . love he admired Modernism or colbut In describing the concept of wabi-sabi (among other things seeing meaning in the imperfect and well used): "Roughly translated, wabi meant 'not to be in the fashionable society of the time ... to be satis FollowingAt 12:48 PM 12-09-98 -0700, you wrote: >The thread that Laura started about smaller houses, and affordability, made >me want to track down the xact quote from Thoreau's Walden about "cost". My >copy has apparently been liberated by a friend, so I went to Project >Gutenberg and downloaded a copy. You could do the same, then send a >contribution. > > > >And here is what HDT said: > >"If it is asserted that civilization is a real >advance in the condition of man -- and I think that it is, though >only the wise improve their advantages -- it must be shown that it >has produced better dwellings without making them more costly; and >the cost of a thing is the amount of what I will call life which is >required to be exchanged for it, immediately or in the long run." > >I had forgotten that he was talking about dwellings; I just remembered the >idea of cost being the amount of life exchanged for something. Perhaps this >should be pointed out to those who feel the need for 3BR/4.5BAs. (Or the >SUVs, cell phones, call waiting, 500 channels of shit...and so forth, ad >infinitum.) > >I soon was lost, reading Walden, again, for perhaps the 5th time in my life. >One more quote, and perhaps some of you will want to read it yourselves for >the first or fifth time; and remember it was written over 150 years ago: > >"Most men appear never to have considered what a house is, and >are actually though needlessly poor all their lives because they >think that they must have such a one as their neighbors have. As if >one were to wear any sort of coat which the tailor might cut out for >him, or, gradually leaving off palm-leaf hat or cap of woodchuck >skin, complain of hard times because he could not afford to buy him >a crown! It is possible to invent a house still more convenient and >luxurious than we have, which yet all would admit that man could not >afford to pay for. Shall we always study to obtain more of these >things, and not sometimes to be content with less? Shall the >respectable citizen thus gravely teach, by precept and example, the >necessity of the young man's providing a certain number of >superfluous glow-shoes, and umbrellas, and empty guest chambers for >empty guests, before he dies? Why should not our furniture be as >simple as the Arab's or the Indian's? When I think of the >benefactors of the race, whom we have apotheosized as messengers >from heaven, bearers of divine gifts to man, I do not see in my mind >any retinue at their heels, any carload of fashionable furniture.... At >present our houses are cluttered and defiled with it, and a good >housewife would sweep out the greater part into the dust hole, and >not leave her morning's work undone. Morning work! By the blushes >of Aurora and the music of Memnon, what should be man's morning work >in this world? I had three pieces of limestone on my desk, but I >was terrified to find that they required to be dusted daily, when >the furniture of my mind was all undusted still, and threw them out >the window in disgust. How, then, could I have a furnished house? >I would rather sit in the open air, for no dust gathers on the >grass, unless where man has broken ground." > >Jean > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 13 11:22:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18360 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 11:22:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28369; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 10:57:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Sep 1998 10:52:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28064 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 10:52:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from bminet.bminet.com (root@console.bminet.com [207.170.27.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28060 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 10:52:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from clearned.bminet.com (dial162.bminet.com [207.170.27.162]) by bminet.bminet.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA04556; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 10:23:56 -0500 Message-Id: <199809131523.KAA04556@bminet.bminet.com> From: "Chuck Learned" To: , "David M. Foley" Subject: Re: GBlist: green building costs Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 09:58:37 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4428 David, I appreciate your reflections. > > Price per square foot is meaningless by itself. A deeper question: how > much of your life energy should you put into creating your habitat? > I represent the view of someone who has started a support and learning group for folks interested in Natural Building, mostly DIY in attendance. Life energy is topic close to me. I would like to see contractors begin to position themselves and their income flows to empowering families to become DIY and partners in the building process. The real concern that I have which has not been discussed is what people are doing with their life energy. My neighbor just went from a nice small home to a home 3x the size, he spends his life energy working for a company that contracts with the defense departments.He helps make killing machines. A great deal of us are working for unneccessary, polluting, damaging to earth and people, organizations. There are very few exceptions, the real issue I see it is what people are doing in order to pay for expensive homes, cars and financial security. This is all a matter of spiritual growth of the individual and the willingness to take the steps necessary to lessen damage and turn one's energy toward healing and remediation. The issues of housing, food, transportation are critical for each person to take an active role in. This is why employing contractors can not be view in the same priority as empowering people as they reach to build low cost, healthy, natural homes. The efficiency (or the lack) of the DIY or amatuer home builder is not the issue. The owner builder needs needs to end up with a home or dwelling that has no or little mortgage and is not greatly harmful to people and the earth. It is only when people need very little income will they be in an empowered postion to not work in harmful jobs, spend more time with their children and take an active role in healing and remediation and once again become civic citizens. What good is a green home if the owner has to ignore their relationships to their family and earth in order to pay for it. I continually hear people referring to the mainstream as unwilling to do this or that as far as greenbuilding. The real challenge is to lesson our own financial overhead, put ourselves into the above stated position of being healers and empowering to others reaching and simply work with people who see the wisdom of this. I speak from the perspective of owning a light manufacturing, consulting and publishing business. For several years growth and risk was my bedfellow, this brought stress,compromise and very little free time and lots of debt. I have come to see simplicity and correct alignment as far more important, it only took a few years of rearranging my priorities to eliminate all the stress and debt, risk etc and now I am in a position to build my own affordable home. This will eliminate my mortage and further my goals of living with less, doing less damage and being a healer and remediator of the scars I and most others continue to inflict. Sorry for the long rant....It has been building.... Chuck Learned ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 13 13:32:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA20660 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 13:32:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05117; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 13:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Sep 1998 13:02:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA04601 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 13:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04597 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 13:02:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.198.23.42] (uA1-b9.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.42]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA10376 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 13:13:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 13:13:21 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980913132213.006ee6b8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Fresh Air requirements Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4429 Sacie, Thanks for the feedback. Yes, literally, when the air inside a building is warmer or colder than air outside the building, and the mechanical airflows, and wind arne't interfering, there is a vertical gradient of indoor-outdoor pressure differences. If the indoor air is warmer, it's less dense and is pressing up against the ceiling of the top floor of the building. In a ten foot tall house, the air outside at ground level has ten feet of denser air pressing down on it than the air inside at ground level. The air inside is more buoyant and presses out through opening at the top of the building, drawing air in through the opening at the bottom of the building. If air is leaving at the top and enetering at the bottom, then the air pressure at the top is higher inside than outside and at the bottom is lower inside than outside. Somewhere in between, there is a place where the inside pressure equals the outside pressure - the neutral pressure level. The amount of air leaking out above the neutral pressure level must equal the amount leaking in below it (which is a crude indicator of leakage area above and below). If you open a window wide in a residence the neutral pressure level will move towards the open window (makes sense because a big whole equalizes indoor-outdoor pressures). When the air inside is cooler, you get the opposite. Generally for low rise buildings it amounts to 4 to 8 pascals of total stack pressure. I've found that understanding the neutral pressure level is very valuable when it comes to understanding airflows in buildings. If you turn on an exhaust fan, it raises the neutral pressure level. If it's big enough exhaust, air comes in from the attic and the neutral pressure level has been pushed into the attic. Turn on an outdoor air fan and pressurize and it lowers the neutral pressure plane. Lower it enough and air goes from the house into the soil, keeping out radon. Whether an openingin a building is an inlet or an outlet depends on the pressure difference across it. It's a little like that old question of how does a thermos bottle know to keep the soup hot and the ice tea cold? I find thermal stack pressures are most important when the indoor-outdoor temperature difference is greatest (like 30 deg F or so) and when buildings get over three stories tall (stack pressures in a 40 story building may be over 100 pascals. Toss in wind and you can find operating outdoor air fans with air leaving leaving the building through them). Hope this helps, - Terry >"- located above the neutral pressure level they are outlets" > >Terry, what does this mean? Do you mean literally? Is air pressure >layered? Thanks. And thanks for the more techinical information suggesting >inlets may not be a great solution for make-up air. This is precisely the >usefulness of this group--and I'm sure there will be lots of response to >this one. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 13 15:57:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22353 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10139; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:32:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:26:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA09793 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09789 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:26:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay1.mnsinc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA08469; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:36:36 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 15:35:31 -0400 To: Green building list , Art Ludwig From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: Hello and wondering if you know anything about this, Mark Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4430 980913 I wrote to a friend in NZ about the following GB post for his comment: ------ In New Zealand I saw beeswaxed adobe floors. One was mortered blocks, the other was just poured mud. I think it had gravel underneath, maybe a plastic vapor barrier as well. The large cracks in the dried initial pour were filled with a different color clay, leaving a beautiful, organic pattern. Sorry-don't know construction details or procedure, but I do know it had a nice finish from the beeswax (it looked like linoleum) was warm and soft to sit on, much nicer than concrete. Art Ludwig Oasis Design Ecological Design publishing & consulting ---------- Here is what he wrote back from NZ: >The flooring you refer to does ring some bells. I am sure I saw it in a >Homes and Garden Magazine a few years ago. Sorry I can't be more >specific than that. You might care to have a look at the Wellington City >Council's web page (http://www.wcc.govt.nz) as I know they had a >competition 2 or 3 years ago for an eco house design and then they built >the winning design. It doesn't have dirt floors, but you may get a lead to >some relevant sites. The Italians have been beeswaxing terracotta tile >floors for years of course. You could also have a look on the web for >BRANZ or the Building Research Association of New Zealand. They may >have some relevant material. Not sure if they are on line though. > >Regards, >Mark ----- hope this helps. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 13 20:05:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA25648 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 20:05:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA18474; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:38:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:32:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA18154 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:32:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18146 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:32:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.238] (rkd94.acadia.net [205.217.217.238]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id TAA09321 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:42:55 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 19:42:33 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: green building costs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4431 Chuck Learned wrote: >The real concern that I have which has not been discussed is what people >are doing with their life energy. My neighbor just went from a nice small >home to a home 3x the size, he spends his life energy working for a company >that contracts with the defense departments.He helps make killing machines. >A great deal of us are working for unneccessary, polluting, damaging to >earth and people, organizations. There are very few exceptions, the real >issue I see it is what people are doing in order to pay for expensive >homes, cars and financial security. > end of quote Thanks for your thoughts, Chuck. You might want to read a book called "Thank You For Smoking", by Christopher Buckley. Yeah, he's the son of Bill Buckley, and yeah, I wound up liking the main character, who is the PR flunkie for the tobacco industry. The central premise of the book is that most of the evil done in the world is by people with mortgages (and kids in private school, and car payments, etc.) The new defense isn't "I was just following orders", it's "I was just paying the mortgage". David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 13 22:43:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA27293 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:43:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24256; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:17:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:12:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA23946 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:12:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA23942 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Alisa (usr0a15.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.15]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA08678; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:23:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980913222412.006feb90@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:24:12 -0400 To: FUnger@aol.com, jean_gallagher@macgate.csuchico.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: Cost In-Reply-To: <1e66adeb.35fb39d0@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4432 At 11:19 PM 9/12/98 EDT, FUnger@aol.com wrote: h >Anyone else out there with more inspiring short quotes? Thanks again to all. > >Fred > Hey there Here's a quote rom John Ruskin I like: "Quality:There is hardly anything in the world that some men cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. It's unwise to pay too much , but it's more unwise to pay too little. When you pay too much you lose a little money , that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing you bought it to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot- it can't be done. If you deal with the lowext bidder, it's well to add something for the time you take. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better." Danny Sagan, Randolph CTR. Vermont. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 13 22:56:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA27422 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:56:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24918; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:31:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:26:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA24581 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24577 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:26:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id VAA0000030293; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:37:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980914023946.0071488c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:39:46 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: mud floors Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4433 Hello, listers and others who listen, I continue to be interested in the question of the practicality of 'building' a mud floor and while I very much appreciate the responses that tell me these look and feel wonderful, I need to know what the down sides are. Some of you have alluded to the time it takes to make one. What about upkeep and durability? What's wrong with mud floors? Must be something big or they would be common. Thanks, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 13 23:09:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA27537 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25497; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:44:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:39:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA25097 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:39:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25093 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:39:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000021840 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:47:28 -0500 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 98 22:00:09 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: Sources for Mylar!?? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5495220.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4434 greensue@hotmail.com,Txinfinet Incoming writes: Can anyone help me with sources of Mylar reflective Sheeting or the old 3M reflective film used in solar mirrors? If you're looking for radiant barrier material, there are a couple listed in the Radiant Barrier chapter of the Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/RadiantBarrier.html Most building supply places will have some - at least they do here. The cost can vary widely depending upon what they're backed with, though my sources say that you can generally go with the less expensive stuff and get the same performance. BC -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 13 23:13:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA27565 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:12:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25720; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:48:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:43:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA25341 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:43:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25337 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:43:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id VAA0000003374; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:53:27 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980914025616.00724c9c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 21:56:16 -0500 To: Dave Gierling , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Re: kalwal Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4435 Dave, re your search for Kalwal, check them out on your favorite search engine. I've found them out there somewhere. We built a house about 20 years ago using Kalwal as the skylight material. Gave wonderful internal light and never turned yellow or indicated anyother sign of degredation from either solar heat or light. When I flew over the Washington DC area into National Airport I could always find that place too; showed up real well. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 13 23:51:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA28101 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27121; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:21:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA26703 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:21:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26684 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:21:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.134] (rkd6.acadia.net [205.217.217.134]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA25372 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:32:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:31:47 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: mud floors Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4436 >Hello, listers and others who listen, > I continue to be interested in the question of the practicality of >'building' a mud floor and while I very much appreciate the responses that >tell me these look and feel wonderful, I need to know what the down sides >are. Some of you have alluded to the time it takes to make one. What >about upkeep and durability? What's wrong with mud floors? Must be >something big or they would be common. Thanks, Sacie Lambertson Hi Sacie - David Easton and his colleagues in Napa, California, make beautiful floors of earth stabilized with Portland Cement, as part of their work with earth homes. The floors are polished and finished with a wax, I believe, and look like terra-cotta tiles. A number of folks on this list know David Easton, and someone should be able to supply his address. He has written books which outline his methods. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 13 23:51:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA28106 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:51:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27117; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:26:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:21:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA26643 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA26639 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:20:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000021846 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 22:28:35 -0500 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 98 22:41:16 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: Healthy Builder in (your town)? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5495232.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4437 IAQKibbey@aol.com writes: Today I received a call from a woman in Texas who, with her sister, is planning a residential add-on for their ailing mother. They are looking for a reponsible builder familiar with low toxic materials and indoor air quality issues for people with Multiple Chemical Sensitivities. Anyone know of a healthy building contractor in the Kerrville, TX area (north of San Antonio)? Though I don't have any listings in Kerrville yet, there may be someone in nearby towns. I'll ask around next chance I get. Of course there are tons of Austin listings (130 members of the Austin Green Building Program), plus listings in Boerne, Keller, Marfa, El Paso, etc.. and a small number from San Antonio in our online Directory of Green Building Professionals. The Austin listings probably won't do a whole lot of good right now, since, as mentioned a short time ago on this list, there's a whole lot of construction work available in Austin. In leaner times, you probably could find someone to make the trip. This of course provides me the perfect opportunity to harrange the good participants on this list once again to list yourselves in the Greenbuilding Professionals Directory at http://www.greenbuilder.com/directory/ . There is no charge, and though we'd appreciate a small donation to help us along, we'll only whine to you about it once or twice a year at most. ;-) The Directory is searchable by location, type of service offered, and keyword searchable on the description you give of your services. We'd like to see a lot more listings in a lot more areas, and any help that you can give by connecting us with your friends and collegues in the business, or them with us, will be appreciated. If they're not on the internet, we can simply mail them a postcard to fill out and return to us. If you're going to a workshop or seminar where a number of green building types are likely to be, let us know and we'll mail you a stack of postcards to hand out. We (modestly) think that this could become a very useful tool for propelling the green building movement into the mainstream. After all, not everyone wants to be an owner-builder... and those who don't will be looking for contractors to do the work for them. And if the consumers can't find someone who know green building, they'll end up using someone who doesn't. BC -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 14 01:10:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA28625 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 01:10:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA29566; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 00:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Sep 1998 00:40:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA29273 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 00:39:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA29269 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 00:39:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000021855 for ; Sun, 13 Sep 1998 23:47:31 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Sep 98 00:00:13 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re(2): GBlist: green building costs To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5495285.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4438 Thanks for the great discussion, folks. 1) Mike Carter's (cobcrew@sprynet.com) comments about "what we really want" are critical. And I might add that Mike and Carol are walking their talk more than many. I recently visited their cob house under construction, and the conscious choice to go smaller and higher quality is immediately obvious. They've made a set of choices that may leave them out of "The Market", but also leaves them with *their* house (not somebody else's bad "dream" house), and a wonderful one it is. 2) One thing that hasn't been brought up in this discussion yet, but probably should be, is the "lifetime costs" of the building. Many times, we consider building costs as just their *initial* cost. If we design well and build well, then the maintainence costs, energy costs, and most importantly the savings in our own health and well being should, over the long run, be less costly than a house that initially costs less. Our culture - and our mortgage companys - aren't geared to appreciate the less tangible rewards of building green. As someone said earlier in the discussion, it's hard to put a price tag on something that isn't there (VOCs, etc). 3) Laura, I don't know how familiar you are with the Austin Green Building Program or the Sustainable Building Coalition, but I suggest you look into them. There are some good folks around town, and a whole lot of sources of information. The SBC meets every 3rd Wednesday of the month - I'll email you the latest newsletter. BC -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 14 10:25:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02850 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:25:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14260; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:54:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13768 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13763 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:54:02 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DN43YT7P; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:04:45 EDT To: IAQKibbey@AOL.COM Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:11:10 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Healthy Builder in TX? Message-ID: <19980914.092711.-151219.8.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.9 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,6-7,11-48 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4439 As a subcontractor engaged in the South Texas building industry since 1993 I regret to report that I know of no builder in this region who would fit the definition that you supply. Most of the builders that we deal with have little or no consciousness or concern with green building or renewable energy techniques and technology. We look forward to the day when this is not true. I recommend that your inquiry be more directed towards the Austin, Texas area (not my region). I do know there are builders there who do participate in the Green Building program although I do not know them personally. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7147 http://www.sbtdesigns.com www.artistmall.com On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 20:10:17 EDT IAQKibbey@aol.com writes: >Today I received a call from a woman in Texas who, with her sister, is >planning a residential add-on for their ailing mother. They are >looking for a >reponsible builder familiar with low toxic materials and indoor air >quality >issues for people with Multiple Chemical Sensitivities. Anyone know >of a >healthy building contractor in the Kerrville, TX area (north of San >Antonio)? > >Please respond directly to the parties involved: >Claire Zively or Jane Longmier >email: janel@hilconet.com >phone: 830-896-4459 >fax: 830-896-3688 > > >Thanks for any ideas you may have. >David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant >Berkeley, CA >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 14 10:26:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02867 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14428; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:00:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:55:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13867 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:55:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13859 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:55:28 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DN43YUHN; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:04:46 EDT To: Terry@dreamscape.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 09:22:57 -0500 Subject: GBlist: Re: Message-ID: <19980914.092711.-151219.11.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.9 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-3,5-6,8-11,13-48 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4440 If you are from or live in the South then you know that historically bamboo has been considered a pest. Due to the climate here this stuff can grow like wildfire. My neighbor just eliminated 1/2 acre of it using fire, clear cutting and chemicals. It may be that we just don't have the knowledge and systems in place to make productive use of this material. On Sat, 12 Sep 1998 11:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Terry Brennan writes: >Something I know about bamboo that is important, but is easy to miss >until >it's to late. Bamboo is a grass which propogates vegetatively, >sending out >runners. It's a pioneer species with an exponential growth curve. If >you >don't confine the root system at the edges, it can easily overwhelm >all the >species in a field. In my life I've seen elms and beech disappear to >imported species, kudzu claim the south, japanese beetles claim the >rose >garden and now there're at least two outbreaks of chinese staghorn >beetle, >against which most of the remaining hardwoods have no defense. I make >the >plee to not move exotic species around wholesale. - Terry > > >>To add to the bamboo question, does anyone know of a variety that >could be >>grown for lumber in the SE. There's a whole lot of tobacco farmers >who need a >>new crop. >> >>Mark > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 14 11:37:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04357 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:37:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18524; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:13:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:08:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18054 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:08:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18050 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust93.tnt2.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.31.93]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id KAA23259 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:18:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35FD3490.58A1@gte.net> Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 11:21:52 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Cost and Lifestyle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4441 I hope many of you had the opportunity to view the recent PBS shows Affluenza and Escape from Affluenza. It seems that slowly the number of Americans fed up with feeling stressed out about work and debt in order to afford toys and the mortgage is growing. If you're interested in pursuing these ideas, and finding quotes Fred, you may want to check out: Enough!, the quarterly newsletter of the Center for a New American Dream, or their website http://www.newdream.org The Overspent American: Upscaling, Downshifting and the New Consumer by Juliet Schor The UNDP's 1998 Human Development Report on consumption Finding and Living Your Passion by Cecile Andrews, http://www.slnet.com/cip/seeds And if you didn't see Affluenza and/or Escape from Affluena and want to, you can order them from Bullfrog Films http://www.bullfrogfilms.com As someone who works out of the house, at a reduced income, to spend more time with my kids and the community, I guess you could say I'm one of the converts. Best, Cindy Pollock Shea http://sustainable.state.fl.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 14 14:37:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA08035 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:37:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29195; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:12:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:07:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28697 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:07:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28693 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:07:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DN5JF57W; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 14:17:47 EDT To: GrenSheltr@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 13:40:18 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Costs and Appraisals Message-ID: <19980914.141905.9374.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <4906c0a9.35fa6562@aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-12 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4442 Linda et al, Are you aware of the "Good Cents" Mortgage offered by Chase? It is through the Good Cents group and specifically developed for those doing environmental buildings, particularly those focusing on energy efficiency. While not apparently to homebuyers, it is available to approved builders. Beverly A. Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 14 17:13:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA10713 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 17:13:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA08218; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:48:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:44:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07904 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:44:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07898 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:44:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DN5TEWC6; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:54:24 EDT To: jc10508@navix.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 16:50:42 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Costs and Appraisals Message-ID: <19980914.165548.9374.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <4906c0a9.35fa6562@aol.com> <19980914.141905.9374.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> <35FD6EB8.5DE2@navix.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-8 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4443 Joyce et al, For "Good Cents" Mortgage call Peter C. Boomer at 800-362-5332. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 14 22:24:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA15792 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:24:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21110; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:59:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:55:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20821 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:54:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from server.totalnetnh.net (server.totalnetnh.net [207.180.176.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20817 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 21:54:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.180.176.33] (s33.terminal1.totalnetnh.net [207.180.176.33]) by server.totalnetnh.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA25754 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:07:15 -0400 Message-Id: <199809150207.WAA25754@server.totalnetnh.net> Subject: GBlist: Re: green building costs Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:05:58 -0400 x-sender: wsmith@server.totalnetnh.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bill Smith To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4444 If I may join in at this point...I have been reading this list for quite some time now and am quite impressed with its overall quality of discussion. The recent thread on domes was particularly good in that the heat of the discussion didn't erupt into flames, ....nor degenerate to blowing smoke for that matter. Well done and thank you to the participants. On the subject of dwelling size and square foot costs I would also like to point out that local building code and/or zoning ordinances often specify minimum size requirements for single and multifamily units. Many (many) years ago when I was working as a laborer I first heard what is a common truism in the construction business. A contractor, talking to a demanding customer, said "In building you've got cheap, you've got good and you've got fast. You can get any two." While the definitions of any of the three elements may change over time, the relationship remains. In terms of design, words like innovative or inventive could be substituted for good. David Foley asks: >how much of your life energy should you put into creating your habitat? I find that interesting because it begs the question of how you determine the value of your life energy (expended) That is do you convert it to cash with which you can buy something or do you apply it directly to making or creating a solution (product, design, idea etc.) yourself? I would suggest that each intermediate layer (cash, check, credit card, mortgage) that we put between our efforts and acquiring our needs (or wants) reduces our understanding of true cost. I think that this shows up in the lack of understanding of environmental consequences in general. Perhaps someone far more clever than I could think of a way to keep our credit cards yet restore that connection. Please let me know! Bill Smith Concord, NH williammsmith@usa.net Though self employed, my opinions do not reflect those of my employer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 14 22:52:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA16177 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:52:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA22236; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:24:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA22020 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:24:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA22016 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DN6EVDSM; Mon, 14 Sep 1998 22:34:21 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 14 Sep 1998 19:56:19 -0600 Subject: GBlist: Blist: help Message-ID: <19980914.202350.3494.0.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2,4-9 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Samantha L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4445 would any of you be aware of a process of "painting" and or plaster work that imitates marble- possibly a method used around 1900 and possibly originating in europe... am looking at using it in a restoration project, but dont have any more info than that... any help - including a name would be helpful- thank you! Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 15 02:55:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA18066 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 02:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA29904; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 02:29:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Sep 1998 02:26:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA29707 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 02:25:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA29703 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 02:25:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000022265 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 01:33:42 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Sep 98 01:46:25 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re(2): GBlist: Healthy Builder in (your town)? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5497247.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4446 environs.com@juno.com writes: >Would love to have a listing in you directory of professionals. How do I >sign up? Pretty simple really... If you have web access you can go to http://www.greenbuilder.com/directory/ and follow the link: "Want to be listed? Here's how!" Try it out. If you don't have Web access, please email me (billc@greenbuilder.com) the following info: Name (required) company address (required) country (required) phone fax email website and a paragraph or two about what you do. Also, let us know which categories you want to be listed under (choose at least one): Architects/designers builders commercial builders residential building products consulting developers environmental products, household engineering services electrical financial, mortgage lenders heating and cooling systems indoor air quality landscaping, urban forests media other services pest management real estate solar energy water, rain collection water, waste systems waste treatment (we'll soon be adding "Design/Build" and "Education" to our category list, but they're not available yet) --- As I mentioned in my earlier post, we also have a postcard version of the above that we'd be happy to mail to any of your greenbuilding friends... or we can supply you with a bunch of them if you're going to be at a gathering of the same. BC -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 15 12:25:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24183 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:25:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19345; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:00:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:55:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18912 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:55:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18907 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 11:55:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust220.tnt9.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.26.220]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA07320 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35FE8F7B.7845@earthlink.net> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 09:02:03 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: costs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4447 Jean Gallagher wrote: > > "Most men appear never to have considered what a house is, and > are actually though needlessly poor all their lives because they > think that they must have such a one as their neighbors have. Jean: Thank you for the Guttenberg link, and thank you for Henry David. Refreshing. The earlier comment from some one on this thread, challenge your assumptions, has been echoing with me, and Thoreau did it well himself. The problem I see with this is two-fold: it can be very risky and dangerous (to your own affairs), and it can be easy to have a deceiving romantic fling with these ideals without really embracing them. Risky: I am currently working with the East Bay Waldorf School (where our daughters go) to build a new crafts and gardening building. Working with Christopher Day, they came up with an extraordinary 1000sf building plan. There is not a right angle in it, built with timber, straw bale, cob, sod, and full of imaginative soul. I said that it would cost me $125,000 to build using carpenters and trades people. Then an energetic group of youthful Waldorf graduates assembled to be the inspired (and inexpensive) construction crew, building community and promoting a new way of making shelter. Filled with zeal, enthusiasm and hope, we started out, only to be ground to a halt by soils reports, recalcitrant building officials, complicated engineering...6 months later, we have not gotten a single piece of rebar placed, and the school has spent an enormous amount of its precious funds. Deception: this all reminds me of the revolutionary idealism of the 60's, back to the land, and all that. Echoes of that idealism still hum in my heart. To me many of the leading edge Natural Builders are vestiges of that movement, and while I love their work, I wonder how deeply our society will really embrace living as Thoreau describes, needing little more than a 3'x6' box for sleeping in, and then having the freedom to embrace the beauty of this world? How many of us are using the internet and our computers only long enough to get down to simple living, and then dispose of these accessories of clutter, ("At present our houses are cluttered and defiled with it")? I think it is important and powerful to acknowledge that we - all of us commenting on this newsgroup - are part of this materialistic system, and that we too are enamored with its power. It isn't just corporations and greedy "other people". While we all hear Thoreau echo in our own hearts, we are not going to adopt his harsh (if beautiful) way of living, not in the long run. Many of us thought we would in the 60's, but lo, here we are with mortgages and cell phones, still wondering about it. I maintain that we are facing a spiritual crisis, as I have written at other times. Until we live and breath with a sense of our own divinity and sacredness within, we are going to be trapped by the alure of greed and pleasure outside of ourselves, and we will easily waste the world around us without understanding how deeply we are hurting ourselves. Yeah, its simple human nature to only see the immediate goal in front of us, but I do believe that we have a higher human nature that can better guide us. I do want to close with a success story, regarding "challenge the status quo". We are just finishing a small meditation chapel north of here. It is a resounding success, (cost less than $10,000). It is 120sf and thus built without a permit. No engineers, no red tape. It was designed carefully using principles of sacred geometry, using stone from the surrounding area, recycled cedar timbers, built with much love. The place has a powerful resonance, a humble and yet extraordinary building. The owner barely had the funds, but she kept proclaiming, "build it and the money will come!" It did. seth melchert Master Builders ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 15 12:50:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24515 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20764; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:24:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:20:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20474 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:20:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20466 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:20:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.204] (rkd76.acadia.net [205.217.217.204]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA02932 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:30:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 12:30:27 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Exterior Clear Wood Finish Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4448 Does anyone have suggestions for a no-or-low VOC, exterior clear finish or sealer to apply to old cedar shingles? We already know about the fine products of AFM/Safecoat; we're seeking other suggestions too. Thanks! David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 15 13:54:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26512 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:54:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24180; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:25:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23772 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:25:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23763 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 13:25:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (pa-ppp24.hevanet.com [204.119.60.109]) by hevanet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA10054; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <35FEA5AE.31D56FC8@hevanet.com> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 10:36:48 -0700 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Exterior Clear Wood Finish References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4449 Hi, David-- Check out Weather-Bos stains and wood protectants made here in Portland. Phone number is (503)650-9627. Best, Mike David M. Foley wrote: > Does anyone have suggestions for a no-or-low VOC, exterior clear finish or > sealer to apply to old cedar shingles? We already know about the fine > products of AFM/Safecoat; we're seeking other suggestions too. Thanks! > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 15 21:10:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA05614 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 21:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA21215; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:45:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:40:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA20857 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:40:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA20852 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:40:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.131]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3173400 ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:43:44 -0800 Message-ID: <35FF0AEC.8FEF7794@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 17:48:44 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Carter , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: green building costs References: <01bde0bc$93eb8080$LocalHost@cowpen> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4450 Hi Mike Thanks for the reply. When you use the word collusion I use the word culture. The only difference is that the word culture means that I think I am part of the problem as well as the solution. You may not have voted but you like me have participated - but also we participate in different things that are perhaps more positive. I'm not trying to be patronizing or idealistic. I work primarily in affordable green housing and have spent a good chunk of life in anti-poverty work. Our lives are short in relation to lives lived especially those lived in misery. People have rarely had the right and ability to create housing. The luxury to define and dream of such things are relatively current, probably temporal and short lived kinds of luxuries. I think it can be (or has been) said that we are mortgaging our future in this luxury. I chose finally to be a designer and a builder because there is something timeless (sorry Chris) about the process and it felt that despite the technology there were physical movements and moments of appraisal that have been repeated endlessly through time. Ironically I actually do not think it an appropriate time to be pursuing such a craft, I've often thought that at this point in time the most appropriate activity might simply be telling stories - perhaps that is why I'm so fond of contributing to this list. best John Mike Carter wrote: > >I think it is important > >to establish such differentiation without terms such as brainwash or > collusion > >because though it is important to establish difference these kind of terms > are > >kind of arrogant and intolerant and can cause some degree of confusion as > to > >objectives. > > > >best > >John > Well, I tried to think of how I came to live the lifestyle I do in the type > of housing that I have (soon we hope to move into our Cob house if it ever > stops raining) and I can't recall making too many conscious decisions about > it or even knowing what the alternatives were. It must have been from TV! > I do think there is collusion between the building code people, the building > materials industry, the insurance companies, the building professions, the > mortgage lenders, and the real estate industry to put us all into expensive > homes we can't afford so that we have to work for most of our lives to pay > them off. There are other factors, like community attitudes towards the > poor, which also help bar truly low income housing. Who took away our > ability and right to create our own housing? Did I get to vote on that? > > Yours in intolerance and arrogance (kind of), > Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 15 23:53:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07535 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:53:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27473; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:28:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:22:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27148 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:22:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27144 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:22:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000015918; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:33:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980916033559.006f02e0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:35:59 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: mud floors Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4451 Anyone know an address, email or snail mail, for David Easton, earth home builder in Napa Ca? Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 15 23:57:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07610 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:57:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27850; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:28:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27425 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.microassist.com (nameserver.microassist.com [12.2.96.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27417 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [12.75.128.135] by mail.microassist.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-43238U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA392 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:43:20 -0500 Message-ID: <35FF429B.445E@naturalspacesdomes.com> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 22:46:34 -0600 From: djohnson@naturalspacesdomes.com (Dennis Johnson) Organization: Natural Spaces Domes X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Exterior Clear Wood Finish References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4452 David M. Foley wrote: > > Does anyone have suggestions for a no-or-low VOC, exterior clear finish or > sealer to apply to old cedar shingles? We already know about the fine > products of AFM/Safecoat; we're seeking other suggestions too. Thanks! David Check out the following: http://www.weatherbos.com/ http://www.penofin.com/ http://www.flecto.com/ http://www.nontoxicenvironments.com/html/products.html Just some bookmarks I had, relating to your question Thanks Dennis Odin Johnson Natural Spaces Domes ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 15 23:58:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07637 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:58:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27945; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:33:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:29:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27522 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:29:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27516 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:29:00 -0400 (EDT) From: RodLambert@aol.com Received: from RodLambert@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 1NNRa20006 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:38:21 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:38:21 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Raised Foundations Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4453 Here at Ecovillage at Ithaca we are looking for ways of providing more affordable housing to the local population (we are in what many would consider an economically depressed area). We are considering the raised foundation (concrete pour) to create "look-out" space (4' - 4 1/2' sill height for windows), for the south half at least, of the basement, generating bedroom or otherwise usable space. A concern voiced by a few potential residents is "condensation effects" (mildew, claminess etc) which of course are at their worst during the high relative humidity days of summer. I have been in basements that do not suffer these effects (without dehumidification) but am not 100% sure of the common denominator. Of course one could completely isolate the basement from the concrete walls, floors and earth via insulation and vapour barriers but this seems like overkill, adds cost, and isolates the building from the "thermal flywheel' and earth tempering effects that my earth sheltering acquaintances speak highly of. A reasonable compromise to me seems to be to insulate the walls on the interior side but not the floor except perhaps near the window wall. (We actually have an example of a 'dry' basement here in the form of our "commonhouse" which has offices and other living spaces in it. It isolates all but the slab, which is above its own insulation, from the living spaces.) The problem I see with this idea is the need to even isolate/insulate the slab somewhat from the earth in order to get away from the massive thermal bridge presented by the concrete wall now exposed to sub zero temperatures (mid NY) and capable of sucking heat out of the ground at least near the perimeter of the slab at the footings. Is this as good as it gets? (Its making me actually want to reexamine my old pressure treated wood foundation file.) Rod Rod Lambert Development Management Second Neighborhood Group Ecovillage at Ithaca, NY where we are planning the second cluster of up to 5 such clusters surrounding a village green. ( in the "most enlightened town in America" - Unte Reader ) they wouldn't print it if it weren't true! Yes we welcome visitors/potential neighbors. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 16 00:34:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA08199 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:34:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA29139; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:09:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:06:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA28845 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:06:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.microassist.com (nameserver.microassist.com [12.2.96.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA28841 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:06:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [12.75.128.135] by mail.microassist.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-43238U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA216 for ; Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:21:42 -0500 Message-ID: <35FF4B99.63A2@naturalspacesdomes.com> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 23:25:01 -0600 From: djohnson@naturalspacesdomes.com (Dennis Johnson) Organization: Natural Spaces Domes X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Raised Foundations References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4454 RodLambert@aol.com wrote: > > Here at Ecovillage at Ithaca we are looking for ways of providing more > affordable housing to the local population >A concern voiced by a few potential residents is > "condensation effects" (mildew, claminess etc) which of course are at their > worst during the high relative humidity days of summer. >(Its making me actually > want to reexamine my old pressure treated wood foundation file.) Rod If you do reexamine the PTW foundation, take a look at some new treated lumber. The product brand name is ACQ Preserve and it does not contain arsenic or chromium. For a supplier, call CSI @ 800-421-8661. They have an "address only" website at http://www.chemspec.com IMHO you would do better to completely isolate the basement walls and floors from the earth via insulation, waterproofing and vapour barriers. Thanks Dennis Odin Johnson Natural Spaces Domes ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 16 08:04:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA11265 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:04:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA10446; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:40:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:35:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA10147 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:35:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA10143 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:35:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.110] (ka3-110.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.110]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA05263 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:46:12 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 00:54:56 -0400 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Small masonry stoves Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id HAA10144 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4455 Howdy. I'm building a small house, and I had ruled out masonry stoves because most of the pictures show them as being very large. However, I was paging through _The Book of Masonry Stoves_ and I saw what appeared to be some fairly small ones. So I thought I'd ask the experts: what's the smallest footprint you can get in a masonry stove? I'm trying to fit it into a house with an exterior footprint of just under 800 square feet. Vertical distance is not much of a problem; over nine feet to the rafters, and then a few more feet to the roof, at the peak. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 16 09:37:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12177 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:37:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14206; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:12:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:09:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13908 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:08:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13901 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:08:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on5-18.netcom.ca [207.181.91.82]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14338; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:19:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199809161319.JAA14338@tor-smtp2.netcom.ca> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 08:15:40 -0400 To: Speireag Alden From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Small masonry stoves Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, Jerry Frisch In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4456 At 12:54 AM 16/09/98 -0400, you wrote: >Howdy. > > I'm building a small house, and I had ruled out masonry stoves because >most of the pictures show them as being very large. However, I was paging >through _The Book of Masonry Stoves_ and I saw what appeared to be some >fairly small ones. > > So I thought I'd ask the experts: what's the smallest footprint you >can get in a masonry stove? I'm trying to fit it into a house with an >exterior footprint of just under 800 square feet. Vertical distance is not >much of a problem; over nine feet to the rafters, and then a few more feet >to the roof, at the peak. One of the smaller footprints available is with the Swedish Kaklugn design, which is traditionally a room heater. An American-manufactured version is available from Lopez Quarries near Seattle: Jerry Frisch Lopez Quarries Masonry Heaters 111 Barbara Lane Everett WA 98203 (425)353-8963 FAX 742-3361 frischro@premier1.net Best.........Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 16 09:58:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12550 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:58:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15271; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:34:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:30:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15007 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:30:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15003 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:30:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id PJ5TPVZW; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:49:10 -0400 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDE155.761688E0@Walnut.babb.com>; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:36:20 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDE155.761688E0@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'GBLIST'" Subject: GBlist: Landscape; Crossing Threshold Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:36:14 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA15004 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4457 Thank-you to all the kind people who e-mailed advice about the hillside I am trying to recover. I have discovered that the hillside is the result of churt mining for road construction. It seems that about 100 ft of the ridge was cut away... Leaving the red earth bare. I'm sure the presence of churt also contributes to our dust problem... (BTW, I am in Georgia. Thanks for the warnings about bamboo. We have a kudzu dilemma already.) I have also been thinking about indoor plants... and remembering some information I found one time about an oxygenating, air-filtering system consisting of a *wall of plants* with running water... I have also looked into some sustainable architecture and design ideas involving the inclusion of trees and plants indoors (or in courtyards) as well as outdoors (providing good shade and insulation where needed!). Chattanooga (Tennessee) has plans to build an addition to the trade and convention center, and I heard that they want to plant trees outside... and incorporate a courtyard(s)... I'm still waiting to hear more, but things aren't moving too fast. Has anyone in this group had experience with complex indoor plantings, or courtyard greenspaces? Any wisdom about these things to share? I'd love to know more, and explore this area further. I appreciate any comments... and the overall informativeness of this group in all the threads! (I don't know much about some of them, but I save them all for later reference.) Best, Jillanna Babb-Cheshul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 16 11:13:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13557 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:13:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18758; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:48:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:45:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18434 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:45:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18427 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:45:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.51]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3399800 ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:56:50 -0800 Message-ID: <35FFD0E6.9D0DFE8C@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 07:53:26 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: planned community Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4458 Thanks to all who responded to my request for information on planned communities. The purpose here is to redirect the demand for rural land into appropriate choices and developments so the emphasis is on 'planned' rather than owner inspired initiatives. The problem is one of dealing with wonderfull folks with only a piece of the puzzle., i.e. a demographic that is well informed, able to become informed, but is land and retirement hungry. Locally we need to establish a model for future development that is less land invasive. By this I mean a rural development model that houses similar folks in similar quarters. I once taught a course in alternative development where I asked the question as to what the ideal size of a rural property would be. I got a variety of answers from 2 to 10 acres. After some further discussion about how big an acre is and what its relationship to surrounding land consists of the concensus was that size did not matter but people wanted to be in 'like' surroundings and land essentially becomes a buffer from what one cannot personally control. Establishing higher density on 'suitable' portions of land effectively preserves the balance of land putting it in some form of 'control' that preserves green space. This is the only model that has made any impression on me and I would like to hear other comments or ideas. Within the development a physical structure is needed for community that changes the traditional road/driveway services and building formula. Social structure i.e. co-housing, cooperative housing seems to be good approaches for reinforcing the physical development of land. I would like to hear some more thoughts on this. thanks John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 16 12:08:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14508 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22430; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:43:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:40:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22026 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:39:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22021 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:39:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust68.tnt1.clearwater.fl.gt.uu.net [208.255.243.68]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id KAA15555; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:47:58 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35FFDE84.653C@gte.net> Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:51:32 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jillanna Babb CC: "'GBLIST'" Subject: Re: GBlist: Landscape; Crossing Threshold References: <01BDE155.761688E0@Walnut.babb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4459 Jillana, The Canada Life Building in Toronto has a Living Wall (water and plants) in its ground floor conference room. The air purifying action of the plants reduces HVAC costs by significantly reducing the need for cold air intake. The project is managed by researchers at the University of Guelph. Cindy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 16 12:55:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15171 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:55:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24693; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:30:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:26:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24282 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:25:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24278 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 12:25:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.137.73.72] (henyusr0-a08.herd.tds.net [208.137.73.72]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA22606 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:36:37 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:36:37 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: GBlist: Re: costs; and Thoreau Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4460 Seth, Your post may have left people with the impression that Thoreau's cabin was 3'x6'. Using Project Gutenburg, I confirmed my memory that it was much bigger: "I have thus a tight shingled and plastered house, ten feet wide by fifteen long" You can visit a reconstruction of it near Walden Pond. This is bigger than the successful chapel you built from native materials which you describe: "The place has a powerful resonance, a humble and yet extraordinary building." The 3 x 6 reference is more in the line of homeless housing, and I've seen plenty of homeless people with housing inferior to a 3 x 6 wooden box, and perhaps Thoreau had too: "I used to see a large box by the railroad, six feet long by three wide, in which the laborers locked up their tools at night; and it suggested to me that every man who was hard pushed might get such a one for a dollar, and, having bored a few auger holes in it, to admit the air at least, get into it when it rained and at night, and hook down the lid, and so have freedom in his love, and in his soul be free." Thoreau's writings are worth trying to keep free from muddying. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 16 15:31:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA18018 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03779; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:05:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:01:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA03273 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:00:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA03265 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:00:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.110] (ka3-185.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.185]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA03552; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:10:18 -0400 To: RodLambert@aol.com, Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Raised Foundations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA03270 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4461 Sgrìobh RodLambert@aol.com: >worst during the high relative humidity days of summer. I have been in >basements that do not suffer these effects (without dehumidification) but am >not 100% sure of the common denominator. My guess is that it's insulation on the outside of the basement. > Of course one could completely >isolate the basement from the concrete walls, floors and earth via insulation >and vapour barriers but this seems like overkill, adds cost, and isolates the >building from the "thermal flywheel' and earth tempering effects that my earth >sheltering acquaintances speak highly of. The earth-sheltered thermal flywheel is great in the right climate. Ithaca, NY may not be the right climate. If it's at all similar to my location, then the frost line goes down four or five feet. That means that you should be insulating down *past* that level on the sides to avoid dumping house heat into cold ground. Also, damp earth carries heat away much better than dry earth. So does bedrock, or "ledge", as it's called hereabouts. My guess would be that in Ithaca you want to put insulation all the way around and under the basement. If you build with surface-bonded block walls, as done by Rob Roy, you end up with insulation outside and plenty of thermal mass on the inside. Good winter performance. See _The Complete Book of Underground Houses_, by Rob Roy. > A reasonable compromise to me seems >to be to insulate the walls on the interior side but not the floor except >perhaps near the window wall. If you insulate the walls on the inside you somewhat reduce the interior air quality (offgassing of materials), and you exclude the thermal mass of the actual foundation structure, which would be a shame. Also, you become vulnerable to condensation within the wall structure and you must detail carefully to prevent it. Insulate on the outside, outside of the waterproofing layer, and you have a cleaner indoors for people with chemical sensitivities (and for the rest of us) and you have the thermal mass on the inside of the envelope, where it belongs. >The problem I see with this idea is the need to even isolate/insulate the slab >somewhat from the earth in order to get away from the massive thermal bridge >presented by the concrete wall now exposed to sub zero temperatures (mid NY) >and capable of sucking heat out of the ground at least near the perimeter of >the slab at the footings. Is this as good as it gets? (Its making me actually >want to reexamine my old pressure treated wood foundation file.) Insulate the footings, too. At least on the tops and sides, and underneath if the load is sufficiently distributed so that the insulation will survive. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 16 19:31:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA23156 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:30:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA17586; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:05:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:02:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA17190 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:01:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA17185 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:01:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-05-206.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.128.206]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA21823; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:12:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:21:41 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDE1A7.3BCE3640.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'mcshea1@gte.net'" , Jillanna Babb Cc: "'GBLIST'" Subject: GBlist: RE: The Canada Life Living Wall Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:10:43 -0400 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4462 While Canada Life's Living Wall seems like a nice idea, and is really great indoor decoration, can you provide a reliable source for the claim that it "reduces HVAC costs significantly"? It certainly has a beneficial effect on IAQ. What monitoring and/or modelling was done to confirm this conclusion? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------ John Straube Building Engineering Group Building Envelope Engineering University of Waterloo 165 Albert St Waterloo, Ont., Canada N2L 3G1 Waterloo, Ont., Canada N2L 3T2 Phone: 519 888 4567 X2378 519 741 7920 Fax: 519 888 6197 519 885 5193 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ On Wednesday, September 16, 1998 11:52 AM, Cindy Shea [SMTP:mcshea1@gte.net] wrote: > The Canada Life Building in Toronto has a Living Wall (water and plants) > in its ground floor conference room. The air purifying action of the > plants reduces HVAC costs by significantly reducing the need for cold > air intake. The project is managed by researchers at the University of > Guelph. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 16 19:32:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA23168 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:31:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA17705; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:07:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:03:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA17291 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:03:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA17283 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:03:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-05-206.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.128.206]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA21844; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:12:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:21:46 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDE1A7.3EB85DE0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'RodLambert@aol.com'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Raised Foundations Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 19:21:19 -0400 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4463 A huge amount of research has been developed over the years about cold-climate basements, although some of the details are still not agreed upon. Insulating the walls is a MUST. To control condensation R5 to R10 is all that is needed. To control energy loss, I'd suggest R10 continuous or R12+ batt in a wood framed wall. The reason for mustiness and humidity problems in non-leaky basements is due to the thermal lag of the earth-cupled slab and lower parts of the wall. The soil at 6 feet or so below grade will often be below or close to the dewpoint temp of the exterior air in the early summer. Thus, ventilation causes high humidity and even condensation. Unfortunately, the only way to deal with this is usually a layer of insulation, e.g. keep internal surface temperatures closer to the interior temp of the house. This means less benefit can be gained from the thermal mass of the soil, but I think it is more important to ensure a decent living space than save 5% on heating. Also, if we place 1.5" of SM on the exterior and 1" under the slab, there is a lot of thermal mass just in the concrete anyway. Another source of mustiness is thermal bridging at the rim joist/mud sill interface. The solution to this is exterior insulation and/or very well detailed insulation of this area. See CMHC's publication list for their basement documents for assistance (or hire me :). Finally, all problems can be solved by using an Insulated Concrete Form for the walls and a slab with 1" of insulation under it. If you dont like foam plastics or are concerned about fire and/or temrites, see www.durisol.com. Also, you might consider talking to Eric Burnett at Penn State University, Pennsylvannia Housing Research Center, who has just completed a series of reports about how to and the benefis of making habitable basements in the NE US. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------ John Straube Building Engineering Group Building Envelope Engineering University of Waterloo 165 Albert St Waterloo, Ont., Canada N2L 3G1 Waterloo, Ont., Canada N2L 3T2 Phone: 519 888 4567 X2378 519 741 7920 Fax: 519 888 6197 519 885 5193 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ On Tuesday, September 15, 1998 11:38 PM, RodLambert@aol.com [SMTP:RodLambert@aol.com] wrote: > Here at Ecovillage at Ithaca we are looking for ways of providing more > affordable housing to the local population (we are in what many would consider > an economically depressed area). We are considering the raised foundation > (concrete pour) to create "look-out" space (4' - 4 1/2' sill height for > windows), for the south half at least, of the basement, generating bedroom or > otherwise usable space. A concern voiced by a few potential residents is > "condensation effects" (mildew, claminess etc) which of course are at their > worst during the high relative humidity days of summer. I have been in > basements that do not suffer these effects (without dehumidification) but am > not 100% sure of the common denominator. Of course one could completely > isolate the basement from the concrete walls, floors and earth via insulation > and vapour barriers but this seems like overkill, adds cost, and isolates the > building from the "thermal flywheel' and earth tempering effects that my earth > sheltering acquaintances speak highly of. A reasonable compromise to me seems > to be to insulate the walls on the interior side but not the floor except > perhaps near the window wall. (We actually have an example of a 'dry' basement > here in the form of our "commonhouse" which has offices and other living > spaces in it. It isolates all but the slab, which is above its own insulation, > from the living spaces.) > The problem I see with this idea is the need to even isolate/insulate the slab > somewhat from the earth in order to get away from the massive thermal bridge > presented by the concrete wall now exposed to sub zero temperatures (mid NY) > and capable of sucking heat out of the ground at least near the perimeter of > the slab at the footings. Is this as good as it gets? (Its making me actually > want to reexamine my old pressure treated wood foundation file.) > > Rod > > Rod Lambert > Development Management > Second Neighborhood Group > Ecovillage at Ithaca, NY > where we are planning the second cluster of up to 5 such clusters surrounding > a village green. ( in the "most enlightened town in America" - Unte Reader ) > they wouldn't print it if it weren't true! Yes we welcome > visitors/potential neighbors. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 16 22:29:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA25272 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:28:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24742; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:04:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:59:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA24428 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24423 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 21:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.54.79.183] (cz-cblk-79-183.cyberzone.net) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:13:48 -0400 Subject: GBlist: Durisol Paper Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:12:50 -0000 x-sender: cdodge@mail.cyberzone.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: cdodge To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19980917021348120.AAA110@mail.cyberzone.net@cz-cblk-79-183.cyberzone.net> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4464 John Straube >If you dont like foam >plastics or are concerned about fire and/or temrites, see www.durisol.com. Speaking of Durisol, I recall that you were to present a paper on the subject this summer in Washington. I would be very interested in obtaining a copy. Has it been published anywhere? Or available on the internet? Clarence Dodge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 16 23:19:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA25880 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 23:19:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA27179; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:54:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:51:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA26924 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:51:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA26914 for ; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 22:51:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-10 #26439) with SMTP id <0EZE00IWI4UNU0@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 15:01:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:38:02 -0400 Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 14:29:06 -0400 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: help - marble painting - Reply To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4465 There is a fabulous example of this in the National Building Museum in Washington DC (corners of F and 5th Streets, NW). There are four (or maybe six - the visual memory can play tricks) massive columns that have been painted like marble. Someone at the museum must know something about them. (202) 272-2448 www.nbm.org Steve O. >>> Samantha L McDonald 09/14/98 09:56pm >>> would any of you be aware of a process of "painting" and or plaster work that imitates marble- possibly a method used around 1900 and possibly originating in europe... am looking at using it in a restoration project, but dont have any more info than that... any help - including a name would be helpful- thank you! Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 17 04:21:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA28058 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:21:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA08110; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:51:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA07836 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:51:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA07832 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 03:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-03-125.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.128.125]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA14747; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:11:25 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDE1F1.3C3ADB20.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'cdodge'" , Greenbuilding List Subject: RE: GBlist: Durisol Paper Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 04:10:10 -0400 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4466 It will be presented at the 6th EEBA conference on October 28-31 in Washington, and published in the proceedings. I can email interested parties a Word document. On Wednesday, September 16, 1998 6:13 PM, cdodge [SMTP:cdodge@cyberzone.net] wrote: > Speaking of Durisol, I recall that you were to present a paper on the > subject this summer in Washington. I would be very interested in > obtaining a copy. Has it been published anywhere? Or available on the > internet? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------ John Straube Building Engineering Group Building Envelope Engineering University of Waterloo 165 Albert St Waterloo, Ont., Canada N2L 3G1 Waterloo, Ont., Canada N2L 3T2 Phone: 519 888 4567 X2378 519 741 7920 Fax: 519 888 6197 519 885 5193 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 17 13:25:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA05069 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:25:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26686; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:00:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:55:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26211 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:55:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from airmail.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.20.220]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26207 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 12:55:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from arb.ca.gov ([146.114.11.17]) by airmail.arb.ca.gov (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA2454; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:01:07 -0700 Message-ID: <360141DA.5EDD73B4@arb.ca.gov> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:07:38 -0700 From: "Thomas J. Phillips" Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST , "LEVIN, HAL" , Cindy Shea Subject: GBlist: Landscape; Crossing Threshold; Air cleaning by plants Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4467 Jilliana: There may be a cooling effect by the Living Wall, but the air purification claim is very dubious. Is there any documentation/verfication that these plants, or water system, purifiy the air? The houseplant studies by NASA that periodically pop up in the media have long been refuted by analyses of John Girman, EPA (see Hal Levin & his newsletter for details). Best wishes, Tom Phillips ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 17 15:17:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA06838 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:17:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03409; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:52:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:49:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA02936 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02932 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:48:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust136.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.136]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id NAA09833; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 13:57:38 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <36015C7B.467F@gte.net> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 15:01:15 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" CC: Jillanna Babb , "'GBLIST'" Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: The Canada Life Living Wall References: <01BDE1A7.3BCE3640.jfstraube@golden.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4468 John, My apologies for saying the Living Wall at Canada Life "reduces HVAC costs significantly." I have done no independent research on the claim. But when I visited the wall this summer and happened upon researchers from the University of Guelph, they relayed their research results. And they asserted that reduced need for outside make up air -- if the boardroom air were circulated building wide -- would significantly reduce HVAC costs. They are the ones to ask re monitoring and modelling done to date. If I could quickly find a name, I would gladly pass it on, but I'm having trouble finding his business card. Cindy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 17 16:51:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA08504 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09144; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:23:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA08733 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:22:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kramer.pcisys.net (root@kramer.pcisys.net [207.76.102.252]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08726 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 16:22:50 -0400 (EDT) From: moxvox@pcisys.net Received: from [207.204.7.172] (maryann172.cos.pcisys.net [207.204.7.172]) by kramer.pcisys.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) via SMTP id OAA14963 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:33:44 -0600 (MDT) env-from (moxvox@pcisys.net) Message-Id: <199809172033.OAA14963@kramer.pcisys.net> X-Sender: moxvox@pcisys.net (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 14:38:45 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Phasing out ABS? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4469 Hi all--After going through all my saved posts on PVC and its substitutes, we're now convinced we need to avoid it where we can in the new house, using ABS for our DWV applications. However, in a conversation Ferg had with the local plumbing supply place, the rep told him that ABS (which is available AND cheaper at this point) was going to be phased out and that only PVC would be available in the future. This seems really odd, given the European and California PVC bans that I've read about. Is it just the usual industryspeak, or is there some actual reason that ABS isn't going to last for at least, say, the next half dozen decades? Also, since we didn't get this decided before our plumber put in a section of PVC, is it possible to join ABS to it, or do we need to dig it up and start completely over? Thanks..............Sara. Sara Mock We do not hug-- moxvox@pcisys.net only sideways, www.moxvox.com/straw.html only with relatives, /\ and only for a short time. _____----------------^^^/\/ /\^^^^^----____________________ G Keillor ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 17 18:46:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11220 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:46:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15073; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:21:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:18:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA14783 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA14779 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:17:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay1.mnsinc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA28664 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:28:43 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199809172033.OAA14963@kramer.pcisys.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 18:28:06 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Phasing out ABS? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4470 980917 Sara, you will need what is called a Fernco connector (or other brand), a metal reinforced to avoid the problems of differing expansion rates betw PVC & ABS DWV piping. Code requires this in spite of the prevalance of "dual purpose" glues on the market. Some inspectors will let you cheat on sections involving only venting, usually where you have chosen to renovate using the one not in there originally. Be sure to ask. I, too, believe ABS is being phased out but cannot say for sure. jh ps-On second thought, I would not even consider putting a Fernco underground (code violation?), but you could still change over to ABS in an exposed area of pipe. ---------original-> Also, since we didn't get this decided before our plumber put in a section of PVC, is it possible to join ABS to it, or do we need to dig it up and start completely over? Thanks..............Sara. > Sara Mock We do not hug-- > moxvox@pcisys.net only sideways, ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 17 20:59:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA12711 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA20919; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:34:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:31:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA20656 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:30:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.inreach.com (pager.inreach.com [209.142.0.209]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA20652 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:30:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from slininger (209-142-2-93.stk.inreach.net [209.142.2.93]) by mail.inreach.com (8.8.8/8.8.6/(InReach)) with ESMTP id RAA05628 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:34:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199809180034.RAA05628@mail.inreach.com> Reply-To: From: "Kim Slininger" To: "green talk" Subject: GBlist: Decon spread-on Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 17:46:09 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4471 The spread sheet material has taken on a full bloom and I'm trying to balance my time between a few paths. I'm not blowing off the huge number of people asking for the information, just taking a little more time to make sure the data can be useful and interactive with other decon jobs. Thanks to all who are interested, I'll flip it out as soon as I'm done. p.s. The wood is going to be stored, banded in about 1000bF bundles, under a 40' x 80' roof made from the same material using panelized construction . It will be used for new construction on site, elsewhere within Yosemite, given to other government agencies or sold at public auction. We'll try to make sure the imbodied energy remains at a minimum. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 17 22:43:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA13846 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:43:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24776; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:18:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:14:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA24465 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24461 for ; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:14:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Powerjan@aol.com Received: from Powerjan@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id RVUZa07908; Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:07:30 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <769abcd4.3601c062@aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Sep 1998 22:07:30 EDT To: goldeneagle1@JUNO.COM Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4472 Samantha- I've been working with a decorator named John Canning (of John Canning Church Decorators in Boston)...his company has done a lot of work on historically significant buildings such as the Boston Public Library, several old Boston Churches, etc. I've worked with him on Yale U's Sterling Library where he has restored and duplicated many delicate and unusual finishes including "limed" oak, marbelization, and mock-oak finish on steel door frames. Expensive but beautiful results. He will probably know a lot more about who's who in the business. If you can't find him via phone area code 617, email me at prn251@sbra.com for the number. Peter Nobile ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 18 12:59:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA23679 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:59:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22743; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:33:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:30:00 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22406 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:29:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22401 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:29:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id JAA09400 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 09:40:44 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 18 Sep 1998 09:38:45 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: Strawbale Fence To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA22403 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4473 I've read (Steen/Steen/Bainbridge's The Strawbale House, for instance) that a strawbale fence can be a great sound barrier. Stuccoed, of course. Does anyone know of a source for hard information? Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 18 13:07:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA23809 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:07:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23569; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:41:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:38:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23024 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:37:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23019 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:37:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DPFNXJ9V; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:48:31 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 12:49:58 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Article in EBN Message-ID: <19980918.124959.9102.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,7-8,17-18,21-26 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4474 Dear Listers, I just finished reading my new issue of EBN, particularly the thought-provoking and informative article on light pollution. For the most part I can easily relate to the issue, being a star gazer(have my own telescope) and living in the brightly lit southeast coast of Florida (see cover photo). I would also like to suggest that light pollution may also be connected to a number of sleep disorders (common in this area). After reviewing the "Checklist for Action" I find one glaring problem with instituting several of the suggestions. We live in an increasingly litigeous society. Leaving publicly accessible areas unlit (schools mentioned in article) or low lit (parking lots and residential lots) may result in lawsuits, even from those who have no business being there in the first place. I, for example, use motion detectors on my outdoor lighting but they are not activated until one is more than halfway up my driveway - a driveway somewhat dark due to light blockage by my 40' trees. As long as the courts allow tresspassers to sue for injury it will be hard to convince business and many residents to lower or eliminate exterior lighting. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinterior.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 18 13:54:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA24542 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:54:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA27164; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:29:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:25:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26803 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:25:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26799 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:25:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DPFRNMNL; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:36:04 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:37:38 -0700 Subject: GBlist: leather Message-ID: <19980918.133738.3734.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,8-9,12-17 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4475 Alex et al, I don't know if you take suggestions for articles and this may not be strictly applicable to building, but I would like to see any research, opinions, discussions et al on the environmental pros and cons of leather. I am often asked about the use of leather for furnishings. On the one hand it is certainly a renewable resource, being a "waste" product of food production, and it comes from a "natural" source but what are the impacts of the tanning process? And, please, noone get into the philosophical aspects of killing animals and using their skin or the pros and cons of vegetarianism - I have already heard those arguments from the animal activists in the area. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 18 14:21:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA24917 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA29033; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:56:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:51:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA28631 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:51:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.efn.org (root@wakko.efn.org [198.68.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA28624 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:51:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip445.efn.org [206.163.181.189]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA29729; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 11:02:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert Bolman" To: "Green building list" , "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Phasing out ABS? Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 10:19:51 -0700 Message-ID: <01bde328$8bafe780$b9b5a3ce@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4476 As a former plumber, I can think of no reason not to put a Fernco coupling underground - but then I wasn't aware that it's unwise to use a dual purpose cement to unite ABS and PVC. Robert Bolman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 18 16:21:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA26836 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:21:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08085; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:56:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:52:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA07722 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:52:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.gcol.com (ns.gcol.com [205.177.170.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07713 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:52:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gcol.com ([205.177.170.58]) by ns.gcol.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA24794 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:24:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3602BB09.61A1E9F2@gcol.com> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 15:56:57 -0400 From: Diane Ryckebusch X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Energy savings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4477 Did anyone out there listen to Ira Flatow's "Science Friday" show on NPR at 2:00 (eastern time)? It was about energy savings and was very interesting, especially for those out there who are building homes. I highly recommend the website about the program: http://www.sciencefriday.com I especially recommend the "Related Links" about "An ISDesign Magazine article about Amory and Hunter Lovins' House" CHECK IT OUT! Diane Ryckebusch Silver Spring, MD ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 18 16:37:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA27117 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:37:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09069; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:09:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA08695 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:08:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08691 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:08:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.84]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 2913900 ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:52:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3602BFC5.ABBD435@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:17:09 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Beverly A. Weiter" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: leather References: <19980918.133738.3734.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4478 Needing some furnishings we settled on a leather couch. I have a dread of upholstery -processing, coatings etc. and leather seemed one of the lesser evils. Couch was european compliant to some standard for emissions (can't remember what). Cat refused to go near it for a month and we were all feelings the effects (a not terribly sensitive family or so we thought). I doubt I'll purchase new generic furnishings again, my attitude has always been that used or 'antiques' are a better option depending on makings. I'm hoping there are some new alternatives being made available but probably outside my price range. Our experience made me more curious as to what standards are being applied and what range of products (fire retardants, etc.) are being used and what is excluded from labelling. John Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > Alex et al, > > I don't know if you take suggestions for articles and this may not be > strictly applicable to building, but I would like to see any research, > opinions, discussions et al on the environmental pros and cons of > leather. I am often asked about the use of leather for furnishings. On > the one hand it is certainly a renewable resource, being a "waste" > product of food production, and it comes from a "natural" source but what > are the impacts of the tanning process? > > And, please, noone get into the philosophical aspects of killing animals > and using their skin or the pros and cons of vegetarianism - I have > already heard those arguments from the animal activists in the area. > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > Boca Raton, FL > www.environsinteriors.com > > _____________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com > Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 18 16:43:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA27212 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:43:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09519; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:18:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:14:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA09192 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:14:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09186 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:14:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.174] (rkd46.acadia.net [205.217.217.174]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA17490 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:25:31 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:25:06 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: leather Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4479 Beverly, What little I know about leather production comes from observations here in Maine. Leather tanning involves the use of toxic heavy metals, including nickel and chromium, and some of the worst polluters in Maine are leather tanneries. It may be that it's not necessary for tanneries to pollute, but they usually have not invested in modern pollution-control equipment. Tanneries compete on very low margins, so equipment is often out-of-date, wages are low and the work is dangerous. In Maine, tanneries have a high rate of worker injuries. Without debating the ethical aspects of animal husbandry: from an environmental standpoint, livestock production - as currently practiced - is devastating to the environment. A number of environmental scientists, including James Lovelock, assert that the biosphere is more threatened by our agricultural and forestry practices than any other human activity, including pollution emissions. So when thinking about the environmental impacts of leather, let's consider the practices that produced the animal skin, just as we consider forestry practices when thinking about wood. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 18 17:38:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA28020 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:38:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA12767; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:08:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA12255 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:08:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA12251 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:08:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.244] (pm1a15.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.111]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA29017; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:18:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:18:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19980918.133738.3734.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: leather Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4480 At 1:37 PM -0700 9/18/98, Beverly A. Weiter wrote: >Alex et al, > >I don't know if you take suggestions for articles and this may not be >strictly applicable to building, but I would like to see any research, >opinions, discussions et al on the environmental pros and cons of >leather. I am often asked about the use of leather for furnishings. On >the one hand it is certainly a renewable resource, being a "waste" >product of food production, and it comes from a "natural" source but what >are the impacts of the tanning process? Hello Beverly, Thanks for the suggestion. We have not looked into leather as a material used in building furnishings, but will consider doing so. My sense is that there are significant environmental impacts associated with the leather tanning process--heavy metals use, etc.--but that might be information from older practices that are no longer used. It would take some digging. The animal husbandry and agricultural impact issues are tougher. I recall that the cattle raised for use in Rolls Royce upholstery were kept in pastures surrounded by smooth-wire fencing so as not to scratch the hides. Presumably those cattle weren't exposed to loud noises either.... Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 18 19:12:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA29061 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:12:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16326; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:47:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:43:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA16082 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:43:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16078 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA11363 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:53:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md11-50.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.178) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma011295; Fri Sep 18 17:53:39 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980918185148.00704524@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:51:50 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Student Info Request -- please help Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4481 ==== Green Schools Info Request ==== ------------------------------------ name = Hila Ratzabi from = The Tikkun Club Solomon Schechter High School of Long Island address1 = 27 Cedar Swamp Road city = Glen Cove state = NY zip = 11542 country = USA I am a member of my school's environmental club. Plans are underway for the building of a new campus for our day school and high school. We are trying to gather information to share with our architects about all aspects of "green building." ------------------- Posted by: Bion Howard, NRG-builder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 18 19:19:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA29108 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16786; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:50:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA16559 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:50:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16555 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:50:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA11915 for ; Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:00:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md11-50.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.178) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma011770; Fri Sep 18 17:58:55 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980918185704.00702f40@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 18:57:06 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Green Building Brief at EcoMall Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4482 We have posted a short green building overview article on < SNAP.com > which works with the EcoMall -- one of my favorite "jump" and environmental shopping gates on the net. then scroll below "African American News" to the "EcoMall" section Check it out, and link to it if you feel it is useful for your web sites, or other purposes. The original materials were excerpted from the "Green Building Primer" at . | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 19 14:24:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA07133 for ; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 14:24:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00594; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:54:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA11978 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:06:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11974 for ; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:06:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.198.23.55] (uA1-b22.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.55]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA23758 for ; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:16:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 13:16:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <19980918.133738.3734.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: leather Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4483 Friends, I have a fair amount of material on leather and leather subsitutes which I collected while studying the life-cycle of sneakers. Interestingly, the old-fashioned way of tanning leather was (and in some small fraction of the industry still is) to use vegetable oils as the tanning agent. However that takes a few weeks in the vats, and metallic based tanning takes a day. The tanneries for most of the atheletic shoes are in Asia, adding significant transportation issues. The bulk of the skins come from slaughterhouses in the Americas. Almost no animals are raised to produce leather, the skins are the by-product of food production. For me it's parallel to fuel being the primary motive for petroleum refining, but plastics are a use of what would have been a toxic disposal problem. Doesn't change the impacts of extracting and refining petroleum and it doesn't change the impacts of raising and slaughtering animals. As far as understanding and reducing the impacts, here are some things to look at. 1) the Journal of the American Leather Chemists Association has many technical articles on impacts and dealing with them. As is so often the case, the industry itself knows a great deal. Heavy metals, particularly chromium are the worst, but not the only effects of tanning. 2) Eagle Ottawa is a leather company who appears to have made a committment pollution and waste reduction, and to view their waste stream as a resource. They are high-tech state-of-the-art kind of folks whose major fu=ocus has been on cleaning up their water and air effluents. They use only water based finishes, reusing ground leather scraps in composite leather substitutes. 3) there are several guides to leather alternatives on the web. Particularly look for things on the Vegetarian resource group's site, and things written by Tom Swiss or Sally Clinton. 4) my favorite leather substitutes are hemp canvas (available in 14 to 17 oz fabrics) and a natural latex/cottoncloth combo called Treetap. Treetap is made by Brazilian rubbertappers in sustainable Amazon basin preserves. It's largest outlet in the states is a shoe company called Deep E Co., who use hemp and Treetap extensively in their shoes. Contact: Bob Farentinos 503-299-6647. 5) Deep E Co also uses reduced impact leather (which they've TM'd Sustana) from Coleman Natural Products and Cudahy Tanning. Coleman raise cattle and has developed management practices (which we used to call fences and rotating pasture) that reduce overgrazing, uses no antibiotics or growth promoting hormones and test feed and water for contaminants. Cudahy does the tanning using practices that sound a lot like Eagle Ottawa - waste and pollution reduction, water based finishes. Deep E Co. has given them environmental specifications which meet the Dutch Eco-label standard for footwear (trivalent chromium, minimal effluent containing heavy metals or VOC's, chlorine-free finishing, biological water treatment processes, and energy efficiency measures. That's all I can remember right now. Hope this is of some help. - Terry >At 1:37 PM -0700 9/18/98, Beverly A. Weiter wrote: >>Alex et al, >> >>I don't know if you take suggestions for articles and this may not be >>strictly applicable to building, but I would like to see any research, >>opinions, discussions et al on the environmental pros and cons of >>leather. I am often asked about the use of leather for furnishings. On >>the one hand it is certainly a renewable resource, being a "waste" >>product of food production, and it comes from a "natural" source but what >>are the impacts of the tanning process? > >Hello Beverly, > >Thanks for the suggestion. We have not looked into leather as a material >used in building furnishings, but will consider doing so. My sense is that >there are significant environmental impacts associated with the leather >tanning process--heavy metals use, etc.--but that might be information from >older practices that are no longer used. It would take some digging. The >animal husbandry and agricultural impact issues are tougher. I recall that >the cattle raised for use in Rolls Royce upholstery were kept in pastures >surrounded by smooth-wire fencing so as not to scratch the hides. >Presumably those cattle weren't exposed to loud noises either.... > >Alex Wilson, Editor >Environmental Building News > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 19 15:49:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA07580 for ; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:49:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03401; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:23:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:19:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA03075 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:19:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA03070 for ; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:19:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA12583 for ; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 14:29:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va12-44.ix.netcom.com(207.223.178.108) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma012573; Sat Sep 19 14:29:34 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980919152742.006841b8@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 15:27:44 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Trespassers liability / security lighting "triage" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4484 -- Greetings GB Group -- Hey, I talked to my attorney who said there have been precedents for overturning liability suits by trespassers against home owners. I sort of hate to fertilize this thread, but Beverly makes a valid point. Any other legal-eagles out there know anything about this issue? Discussion ============== >From a technical standpoint I view this issue as a "task" versus "field" lighting one. Why not _design_ to light outdoor areas first, with a sort of "triage" of security needs based on fundamental assumptions about use: - Need Level - * 1: highly sensitive, should be lit at night to ASHRAE 90.1 levels [See ASHRAE Std. 90.1-1989R with addenda] e.g. Banks, embassy, police stations, train-bus stops, all-night vendor entry, college campus areas * 2: less sensitive, should be lit only as necessary with field and task lighting (field = low levels boosting ambient; task = added light on task such as activated by motion sensors, or timers) [home exteriors, driveways, parking lots, walkways, ped-underpass] * 3: non-sensitive, where there could be specific prohibitions of field lighting, and options (like A and B) where task (motion-sensing) light) would be permissible [ here is the problem, who says a place is "non-sensitive"... ] Would be a useful debate with lighting experts, lawyers and code officials to determine such a system, with the proviso that it be simple enough to implement. Also, one would need good info on the ambient lighting levels suitable for sight and "comfort" of vision in humans. What is too dim for various tasks, and levels of location-intimidation. This will vary by sex and perhaps ethnicity. Would be an interesting graduate school study combining sociology, human physiology and the physics of applying energy efficient lighting solutions. (tally-ho) ----------- >As long as the courts allow tresspassers to sue for injury it will be >hard to convince business and many residents to lower or eliminate >exterior lighting. > >Beverly Weiter >Environs Interiors >Boca Raton, FL >www.environsinterior.com | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 19 23:49:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11998 for ; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:49:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17182; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:24:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:20:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA16979 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:20:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA16974 for ; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:20:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-21-12.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.12]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA27718 for ; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:31:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Sat, 19 Sep 1998 23:40:53 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDE426.F0979CC0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Durisol EEBA paper Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 19:59:33 -0400 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4485 To all of those who requested a copy. I am on the road and emailing lots of 400K+ files will cost lots of long distance chares (especially since most hotel rooms have hook up rates of only 19200 to 28800bps) I will mail the paper in a week or so when I get home. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------ John Straube Building Engineering Group Building Envelope Engineering University of Waterloo 165 Albert St Waterloo, Ont., Canada N2L 3G1 Waterloo, Ont., Canada N2L 3T2 Phone: 519 888 4567 X2378 519 741 7920 Fax: 519 888 6197 519 885 5193 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 20 13:21:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16260 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:21:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03686; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:56:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:52:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03391 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:52:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03383 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 12:52:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.117] (ka3-117.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.117]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07721; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <35FFD0E6.9D0DFE8C@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 13:00:36 -0400 To: John Salmen , Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: planned community Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA03384 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4486 Sgrìobh John Salmen: >After some further discussion about how big an acre is and what its >relationship to surrounding land consists of the concensus was that size >did not matter but people wanted to be in 'like' surroundings and land >essentially becomes a buffer from what one cannot personally control. >This is the only model that has made any impression on me and I would >like to hear other comments or ideas. Within the development a physical >structure is needed for community that changes the traditional >road/driveway services and building formula. Social structure i.e. >co-housing, cooperative housing seems to be good approaches for >reinforcing the physical development of land. I would like to hear some >more thoughts on this. Such co-housing areas can work, I think, and I've lived in two condominium developments, which are a first step along this road, in that they share open area, paths, walkways, access roads, and walls. All I can offer in counterpoint is a personal experience which soured me on condominia and such. We currently live in a condo while we build. It's an end unit, with a pleasant view of forest and farm fields. A few hundred feet down the hill from us are several more condo buildings, with the parking lot adjacent. In between those buildings and ours there is a plot of trees, including one beautiful pine tree with low, sweeping branches which prevented mowing underneath. We used to see squirrels and birds under there and in the undergrowth in the plot of trees. A few months ago the condominium association took an action without notifying us or the our landlords, or asking our opinions. They took that undergrowth to the ground and removed the slash, and they pruned all the branches off of the trees up to an altitude over six feet. We can now see the road, the other condominia, and the parking lot. They can see us. We can hear them, especially the road. We have much less privacy than we used to. We don't see squirrels or birds there anymore. And the low branches of the pine tree will never form a fort for the neighbors kids anymore. I'm sure that the people running the association thought that they were cleaning things up, improving the neighborhood, and keeping things neat. But they destroyed all of the things about it which we enjoyed. It is no longer a place where we go to be quiet and watch the dogs play. We're glad that we're building on a plot where we can do as we please with everything in sight. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 20 14:44:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA17192 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:44:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06284; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:19:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:15:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05922 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:14:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05918 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:14:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.198.23.38] (uA1-b5.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.38]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA25300; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:25:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 14:25:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36051E7F.783BE547@grolen.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Regel@grolen.com, greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: Re: Red rosin bldg. paper under metal roof. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4487 Gene, A good question. In the short term I have experience with the stuff getting rained on and resisting the moisture real well - the rosin appears to keep the water out. In the long run, I don't know. I expect a metal roof to sweat underneath in climates which have warm humid days and clear nights when radiation loss to the night sky cools the roof below the ambient air temperature. I don't recall finding any rosin paper in tear off jobs. Sounds like agood one to post to the list. - Terry > Terry, if the red rosin bldg. paper gets wet will it turn to paper >mache? Gene Leger, gleger@grolen.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 20 21:29:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA21184 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19904; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:04:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:59:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA19423 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19419 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:58:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from qbert.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@qbert.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.94]) by berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id VAA00632 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:10:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by qbert.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with SMTP id VAA16735 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:10:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:10:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@qbert.rs.itd.umich.edu To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: internal heat insulation Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4488 Dear GBlist members- Before I dive deeper into this issue (not being an architect myself), I'd like to ask your advice/experiences on this: Our 95-year-old, four-story school building with brickwalls (with an R-value of about 6) will be internally renovated next year. Since there's no chance to put any heat insulation on the outside, due to the building's historical character, I'm considering heat insulation on the inside (we have wooden floor structures, so the issue of thermal bridges might not be a serious one). Now, being in Michigan with its many cold and wet winter months, our architect has concerns with condensation occuring inside the walls (which have no void space). Coming originally from Germany (with its similar climate), I know that it's quite common to insulate older buildings on the inside, and I haven't heard of any problems with that (except for the lost heat storage capacity). I'm wondering if someone from this list could please give me her/his insight/experiences, so I might have some better arguments to convince our architect to seriously consider the issue? I appreciate your help very much. Cheers, Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greening-of-Dana homepage http://www.snre.umich.edu/greendana/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Reppe e-mail: reppe@umich.edu National Pollution Prevention Center phone : 734-936-2535 University of Michigan fax : 734-647-5841 430 E. University Ann Arbor, MI http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub 48109-1115 U.S.A. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reppe -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 20 21:30:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA21197 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:30:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19979; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:04:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:00:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA19481 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:59:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19477 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:59:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Alisa (usr0a39.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.39]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA07293; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:10:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980920211201.006fadec@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:12:01 -0400 To: From: Danny Sagan Subject: GBlist: Builders in Virginia Cc: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4489 Hey there- Needless to say this list is great,inspiring, and helpful. Does anyone out there know a good builder in the area around Charlottesville VA, specifically Afton VA. I am in the process of helping a woman who has land and a house she wants to build. She is looking for someone with a commitment to green building practices , etc. Thanks in advance- Danny Sagan- Randolph Ctr, VT- Fred Tuttle Country ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 20 21:44:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA21306 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA20593; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:19:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:14:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20301 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:14:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20292 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id UAA0000023391; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:25:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980921012758.006f0dac@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:27:58 -0500 To: Terry Brennan , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Red rosin bldg. paper under metal roof. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4490 Regarding the need for rosin paper under a metal roof, I believe I missed the beginning of this thread. We are about to install a metal roof on our cabin and, both with the advice of one of the bidders plus old experience with a standing seam roof, we are placing rosin paper over the 30# felt that lies on top of the OSB roof. The felt is a requirement of the metal roof manufacturer. I was told that the rosin paper would help when the roof gets real hot under the metal and starts to make mush of ' the asphalt impregnated tar in the roofing felt. Makes sense and costs little to do. Back in Virginia where standing seam roofs, the real thing, are traditional, rosin paper is normally placed under the metal. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 20 21:51:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA21418 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21038; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:26:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:23:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20769 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20759 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 21:22:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id UAA0000016832; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:33:54 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980921013643.006fe8b4@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:36:43 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Larson trusses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4491 Anyone out there use Larson trusses when they want a super insulated wall??. Was reading an old FHB magazine that described these. The plumbing and wiring goes in the usual 2x walls leaving the deep unpenetrated truss system built outside of this. The attractive windows sat in splayed walls. The house in the article, built in Vermont, used a one foot deep truss sort of system; the article claimed it was so well insulated and so tight that the fuel bill was negligible. I've seen earlier discussions about the most cost effective way to build the best insulated wall, but don't recall anyone talking about this type. Is there a consensus about the 'best' system for wall building? Would be interested in hearing what you have to say. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 20 22:58:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA22030 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:58:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA23421; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:32:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:29:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA23131 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:29:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA23127 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 22:29:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28373 for ; Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:40:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-035.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.35), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd028349; Sun Sep 20 19:40:07 1998 Message-ID: <3605BC39.C7CE5D80@primenet.com> Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 19:38:50 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Hopper Gun Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4492 I just purchased a Walboard Hopper Gun. I wonder if anyone has used a hopper gun for stucco or is it too heavy. I would like to ask an operational question of anyone that has operated a stucco hopper. Help! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 21 08:53:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA25737 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:53:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07682; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:27:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:23:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07433 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:23:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07428 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:23:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.244] (pm2a29.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.221]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA14268; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:34:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 08:34:15 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980921013643.006fe8b4@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "David F. Lambertson" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Larson trusses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4493 At 8:36 PM -0500 9/20/98, Sacie Lambertson wrote: >Anyone out there use Larson trusses when they want a super insulated wall??. >Was reading an old FHB magazine that described these. The plumbing and >wiring goes in the usual 2x walls leaving the deep unpenetrated truss system >built outside of this. The attractive windows sat in splayed walls. The >house in the article, built in Vermont, used a one foot deep truss sort of >system; the article claimed it was so well insulated and so tight that the >fuel bill was negligible. I've seen earlier discussions about the most >cost effective way to build the best insulated wall, but don't recall anyone >talking about this type. Is there a consensus about the 'best' system for >wall building? Would be interested in hearing what you have to say. Sacie >Lambertson > That house written up in Fine Homebuilding is just up the road from my home in Dummerston. It was built by Mindel and Morse Builders (802/254-6662) using a structural 2x4 wall and non structural trusses on the exterior. I don't _believe_ that they have done others using this system, though they have tried to convince clients to go with it. Another builder in Dummerston, Chris Derby (802/257-5315), has built at least two houses using another superinsulated detail in which the structural frame wall is on the outside and the non-structural trusses are on the interior. Chris built his own home that way and built such a home for a client this summer. Another builder in the area, Dan MacArthur of Marlboro, Vermont (802/257-7328), has built a number of timber-frame homes with non-structural Larson trusses on the exterior. All three of these systems are achieving wall insulation with fiberglass or cellulose of R-40-plus. All are working very well as far as I know, and the interior spaces--with wide window sills and splayed window openings--are very attractive and pleasant. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 21 10:28:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26894 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:28:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12120; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:01:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:56:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11808 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:56:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11804 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:56:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07416 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:07:02 -0500 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:05:10 -0500 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: Larson truss Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:05:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4494 As I understand it, there is now a commercial version of the Larson truss on the market....called the "Sim Stud", I believe, and manufactured in Canada. See the latest issue of Automated Builder for a photo and description. - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com > -----Original Message----- > Date: Sun, 20 Sep 1998 20:36:43 -0500 > From: "David F. Lambertson" > Subject: GBlist: Larson trusses > > Anyone out there use Larson trusses when they want a super insulated > wall??. > Was reading an old FHB magazine that described these........ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 21 10:36:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26990 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12722; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:08:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12339 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:07:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hil-img-5.compuserve.com (hil-img-5.compuserve.com [149.174.177.135]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12335 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:07:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by hil-img-5.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.14) id KAA18013 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:18:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:17:45 -0400 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: Re: GBlist: Larson trusses Cc: "[unknown]" Message-ID: <199809211018_MC2-5A23-6067@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAA12336 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4495 Message text written by Alex Wilson >All three of these systems are achieving wall insulation with fiberglass or cellulose of R-40-plus. All are working very well as far as I know, and the interior spaces--with wide window sills and splayed window openings--are very attractive and pleasant.< The larson truss creates a completely connected wall cavity (instead of each stud cavity being relatively separate.). This means you need to be very careful about the internal and external pressure boundaries (air barriers). A leak one place will connect to everywhere else, especially with fiberglass batts. Also, getting a dense pack with cellulose can be more difficult and wet spray doesn't like a deep cavity. This can be a big problem if you don't pay attention to the air barrier details. I did a heating system for a house in the early 1980's that had a larson trusses and the tested air leakage rates were so high we had to resize the heating system. Greg Gregory Thomas 121 Rachel Carson Way Ithaca, NY 14850 g_thomas@compuserve.com 607-277-6240 607-277-6224 fax ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 21 10:55:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27271 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:55:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13667; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:28:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:24:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13376 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:24:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13372 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA18477 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 09:35:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md11-53.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.181) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma018463; Mon Sep 21 09:34:35 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980921103243.00718f7c@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:32:45 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Top 20 hazardous substances (CDC index) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4496 Top 20 hazardous substances (index) -------------------------------------- Visit ... and be sure to check into use of these substances in building materials, adhesives, finishes, etc. (like via Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS, don't have "all the answers" however), and find ways to keep them out of - or minimize - their entry into buildings during construction, renovation and operation. Public Health Statements were prepared by the ATSDR Division of Toxicology. This is a CDC report based on ATSDR and EPA efforts revise the priority list of hazardous substances (current N=275). Main Site: ATSDR's Hazardous Substance Release/Health Effects Database | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 21 10:58:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27348 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:58:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14163; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:32:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:29:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13721 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13717 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:28:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DPN6RXY8; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:39:45 EDT To: dsagan@sover.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:38:01 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Builders in Virginia Message-ID: <19980921.104115.9734.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19980920211201.006fadec@sover.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,6-13 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4497 Hi, Dan, I don't know of any builders, but I do know of an excellent "green" architects, Clint Good. You might want to contact him and ask for some recommendations. He has two offices - one in Bethesda, Md (301) 951-7056 and one in Lincoln, Va (703) 478-1352. Good luck. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 21 11:01:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA27392 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:01:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14477; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:36:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:32:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14135 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:32:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.gis.net (ns2.gis.net [208.218.130.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14127 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:32:27 -0400 (EDT) From: redelson@gis.net Received: from [216.41.28.39] ([216.41.28.39]) by ns2.gis.net (8.8.8/8.8.8+djf) with ESMTP id KAA12498 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:47:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:47:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: redelson@208.218.130.20 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: rubber roof? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4498 Hi all, While on the roof topic: muchos holes in mine. A roofer suggested that in re-doing my roof, he put on a "rubber roof" which, he said, "will last long after you are gone." Any thoughts on this? rebecca redelson@gis.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 21 11:41:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28100 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:41:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17288; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:16:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:11:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16872 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:11:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16867 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:10:59 -0400 (EDT) From: EcoAmazon@aol.com Received: from EcoAmazon@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id EGJVa18748; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:19:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <42196b17.36066e71@aol.com> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:19:13 EDT To: dsagan@sover.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Builders in Virginia Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4499 An architect in Charlottesville, Fred Oesch, is doing some go-the-distance stuff with "Earthpods" (scaled-down Earthships for the East) and is involved with the ecovillage there in Nellysford (Horizons). I'm sure he knows all of the local green builders. And of course you know that that is McDonough's neighborhood, so I'm sure his department or his firm could direct you to someone. Carol Steinfeld ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 21 11:58:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28669 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:58:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18206; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:33:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:29:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17881 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:29:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17869 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 11:29:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id KAA0000026507; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:40:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980921154300.00724c20@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 10:43:00 -0500 To: John Salmen , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Re:Affordability Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4500 John, the following are thoughts that I started in response to your view of your own building process just completed. I had another too that I was going to send to the group but am letting it fallow longer. Well thought out and hitting lots of chords here too, but from a slightly different point of view. You are fortunate that you've been able to work all your building problems out in just one summer. And being your own client has probably been very worthwhile, yes? I suppose, as our own project stumbles along, there is such a thing as thinking about something too much. But on the whole, as much care as we've given to trying to think this through, I have found that working with an architect on our house has been totally frustrating. Especially so when I think that I really do know something about building and that I've worked for architects myself and should, surely, know about the process and what goes into it. Unfortunately at this point (and money spent) we can't really start again and we probably won't have another chance to do this another time, so the lessons learned won't do much good. I do kind of wish though that I had bought into this group before I did, and then I think I might have turned to more kindred spirits for help. As you have shown in your postings, it really isn't just a matter of building "green", much more, it is a matter of the point of view, the philosophy about some important aspects of life that is the touchstone for us and which makes it all click when we hit it. Personally, we find it essential to put a whole lot of our resources into our habitat, not necessarily the financial resources per se, but the emotional, the psychic; essentially we put our whole energy and our hearts into it. It is well worth building an environment that you want to live in now, that you yearn to return to and one that is changing sufficiently to allow you to always look forward participating in the future. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 21 15:54:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04788 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:54:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02004; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:29:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:23:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01583 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:22:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01574 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 15:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id MAA19244 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 12:33:57 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 21 Sep 1998 12:33:38 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: Frustration To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA01575 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4501 Sacie, You say: "I have found that working with an architect on our house has been totally frustrating. Especially so when I think that I really do know something about building and that I've worked for architects myself and should, surely, know about the process and what goes into it." Since many in this group are likely to be dealing with an architect at some point,I wonder if you would care to be more specific about the problems (misunderstandings, etc.) that have caused "total frustration." This would be especially instructive for us given the fact that, theoretically, you were in a position to choose your architect wisely. And I wonder if the architect could be brought into the dialogue; sometimes, when both sides are heard, and "outsiders" can have input, the whole situation becomes more clear to all. A learning experience. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 21 21:43:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17135 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:43:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA20580; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:18:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:14:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20112 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:14:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199809220114.VAA20112@solstice.crest.org> From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: GBlist: Seattle Article/EIFS Failures (aka "leaky condos") Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 16:14:55 -0700 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4502 I apologize for this long post. However, I noticed that the issue of building envelope failures in the Vancouver-Seattle area has recently been raised on this list. It generates a lot of speculation and misunderstanding. What follows is my summary of what has happened in the Vancouver area and why. It was first printed in Solpan Review in May '98. The subtitle I put on this piece was "a cautionary tale of what happens when the entire construction and development system breaks down". My analysis was corroborated by the Provincial commission of enquiry that was convened to investigate the problem (and that is going to lead into signaificant structural changes to the construction indsutry in BC - the full report is available on the web at the Province of BC website). "Leaky Condos": Building Envelope Failures It's not often technical construction issues are at the top of main stream media coverage, in both local and national media. Building envelope failures in BC have recently gained that kind of profile. Mention "leaky condos" and construction horror tales emerge. Drive around Greater Vancouver, and you'll see tarp covered buildings everywhere. Some technical myths are being repeated in much of the media coverage as if they were the absolute truth. We want to correct the misconceptions, and also hope that members of our industry take the lesson offered by the Vancouver situation. Consider it a cautionary tale, as problems seem to happen anywhere a construction boom takes place. Only the details vary from place to place. Similar problems have happened in other areas, including Nova Scotia and the eastern seaboard of the USA. Many explanations have been advanced for the current situation and a search is on for the guilty party on which to pin all the blame. A key factor is the high level of construction activity that has encouraged unqualified participants and lowered levels of professional enforcement of existing standards. Another factor is that too many in the industry rely on someone else's inspections to spot incorrect application of materials, and even for simple quality control inspections. The Problem The problem is envelope failures in new construction, mostly in the Greater Vancouver area. The water problems are happening despite the Building Code's clear and explicit regulations that buildings must not leak. They include water penetration, damage to cladding systems and decay of structural components. The problems are most pronounced in new low rise (3 - 4 storey) multi family wood frame projects, where the units are marketed as self owned dwellings (condominiums). The most common cladding material subject to failure is stucco, although problems have been noted with other siding products. Because of long wet periods, limited drying potential in this climate, and construction details used, water leaks through the exterior envelope and rot sets in, leading to structural failure. Moisture eventually seeps inside the dwelling, enhancing fungal growth indoors. In the long term, the poor indoor air quality will create health problems. A survey by Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation (CMHC) found that the main source of moisture was exterior water finding its way into the walls. It is not interior moisture or construction moisture finding its way out. Water enters at junction details: mainly at windows, the perimeter of decks, balconies and walkways, and at post locations. It seems that the building envelopes are not being detailed or built correctly avoid to the entry of water rather than poor materials or inadequate maintenance. After all, stucco has been used successfully in Vancouver for the last 90 years or more. (Findings of the CMHC study were summarized in Solplan Review No.72, January 1997.) Building Science We know that three conditions must be present simultaneously for a water problem to occur in a wall: 1) there must be water on the wall, 2) there must be a hole through which the water can enter, and 3) a driving force must be acting that will move the water. That is why the Building Code requires that the wall assembly must keep out rain water, wind, and water vapour. The assembly must also let water vapour out if it gets in, keep heat in during winter and out in summer. To control the movement of air and moisture through the building envelope, the code clearly identifies the need for an air barrier and a vapour barrier. These are two distinct functions that affect building performance and durability. Vapour Barriers A vapour barrier controls the movement of moisture through the pores of a material by slowing the rate of vapour transmission. Effective vapour barrier materials have a low permeance to water vapour. Vapour barriers must always be on the warm side of the wall. Materials on the cold side of the vapour barrier must always be more permeable to water vapour than on the warm interior side. Air Barriers An air barrier stops the movement of air under pressure through the wall. It does not have to meet the vapour barrier requirements for vapour permeability. Air leakage across the building envelope is the major factor that affects envelope performance and damage the building. Air movement in and out of the building takes place through holes and gaps in the construction. When warm air leaks out of the building, it carries moisture outward with it. Research has shown that air movement through the building envelope will move 100 times the amount of moisture that diffuses through building materials. This moisture can damage the structure as it condenses on cold surfaces. The driving force for air movement is created by a difference in pressures. Wind creates significant pressure differences that will push or pull air through any leakage points in the envelope. In cold weather, stack effect causes air to be drawn into the lower parts of the building, where it replaces warm air leaving through the upper portions of the building. The bigger the temperature difference, the bigger the driving force to move the air. Multi-family dwellings usually have pressurized hallways that effectively pressurize individual dwellings, creating forces that drive warm, moist air into the envelope. Problem Source There has been much speculation about possible causes of the problem: Building Code The Building Code has been blamed for not being suitable for the climate. However, the intent of the code is clear. It states that buildings must not leak, and that the building be designed for the location in which it is found. The West Coast climate, although mild, is one of the most technically challenging climates for construction. Long cool, wet periods at times with driving rain offset with very short dry periods, reduce the length of time available for the drying of construction assemblies. The Building Code establishes a minimum standard of safety for the construction. It is not intended to be a textbook on building design, nor does it set out quality criteria. This is a distinction that has to be made, as often there are misunderstandings about the intent of the regulations. Code provisions set out enforceable standards. Quality, being open to subjective interpretation, is not readily enforceable. Part 9 of the code, which applies to houses and small buildings, is prescriptive. (Many multi-family projects are built under the provision of this section). Part 9 regulations offer explicit design and installation instructions for most materials and assemblies in use today. For buildings that do not fall under the scope of Part 9, the prescriptive requirements for envelope components can be still used as a guide. Part 5 of the code ("Wind, Water and Vapour Protection"), which applies to larger structures, sets out performance objectives. The requirements are flexible, allowing many alternative ways of meeting the code objectives. Suggestions have been made that the code be modified, to make the requirements more responsive to the regional climate. This implies a prescriptive code. Such a change could actually be counter productive as it will reduce the flexibility of action as new ways of assembling materials are refined. Material Failure The problems are happening despite the use of good materials that meet code requirements. Exterior cladding materials must shed rain and provide a weathering surface to protect the interior parts of the wall, including the sheathing and sheathing paper. Historically, many natural exterior finish materials have been used successfully: wood siding, brick, stucco, metal. Traditionally, only a few materials have been used in any one region so that designers and tradespeople learned how to use them successfully. Recently, there has been an increased use of a wider range of new products such as vinyl siding and exterior insulated finish systems (EIFS - commonly called synthetic stucco). These new products have been developed to provide more finish options, to improve durability, and to address specific market and economic needs or for aesthetic reasons. The BC Building Code requires that materials used for exterior cladding meet standards that apply to the product, and that they be installed to perform as intended. All perform satisfactorily when applied as intended. At the same time, any product applied incorrectly will have problems. Part 9 of the code, which applies to houses and small buildings, has clear, prescriptive requirements for the design and installation of exterior claddings, vapour barriers, thermal insulation, sheathing papers, flashings and fastening devices. The requirements are readily verifiable if appropriate inspections and field reviews are carried out during construction. Energy Conservation Suggestions have been made that increased insulation and air sealing for energy conservation have contributed to the problem. The use of insulation to retain heat and make a home more comfortable has increased in the last fifty years. By keeping the heat in, the insulation has kept heat out of wall cavities, so the cooler temperatures may make these assemblies more prone to condensation if moisture is allowed to get into the wall. Due to lower heat flow, the materials are less able to dry out. All evidence, however, is that the source of the moisture causing problems in BC is not interior-generated moisture or construction moisture, but rather, it is exterior weather-driven moisture. Relying on interior heat loss to dry out water that has leaked into the building is not an appropriate solution to the problem. Design Issues Some building designs are less suitable for use in a wet climate. The trend of the last fifty years to universal design styles, oblivious to the location and climate, is simply irresponsible. Most buildings being built today can be anywhere. Look at real estate marketing brochures and you see images of Arizona, Mexico, England, France, etc. regardless if the project is in Vancouver, Edmonton or Ottawa. A design suitable for the Arizona desert is just not right for a wet West Coast climate. Fashion setting developers ten years ago loudly proclaimed their inspiration was Arizona, California or Italian Mediterranean design. Today it has come back to haunt them. Workmanship There is much evidence that poor workmanship contributed to problems. The best materials, poorly used, installed incorrectly, will not perform as intended. Trades qualifications is important, but so is adequate supervision to ensure the work has been done adequately. Both have sadly been lacking in Vancouver recently. Greed Boom times tend to flush out all manner of people with dollar signs in their eyes. Their less than scrupulous activities, hidden behind numbered companies take advantage of high demand. These situations are not unique to Vancouver, as they seem happen in all areas experiencing a construction boom. Developer profit and marketing fees far exceed fees paid to design and technical professionals that will build the project and retain legal responsibility. A shift in market place dynamics has changed the way projects are developed. In the past, most multi-family projects were rentals, so ownership remained with a single owner who had an interest in durability and low maintenance. Today individuals own their suite so the developers focus is on style and image marketing to sell units as quickly as possible, rather than long term performance. The Guilty Parties Fingers are being pointed in all directions. A provincial commission of enquiry has been established with the express objective to determine who should be held accountable. Our analysis of the role of the various players, and their position in the process follows. Developers These are the initiators of projects. Style conscious developers may impose design visions not suitable for the climate. A bottom line with high margins is the most important consideration. Behind numbered shell companies, created for a single project, there is no one and no assets to go after if something goes wrong eighteen months after project completion. Contractors These are the front line people who actually put together the materials. Competitive pressures mean that a lot of work gets done on a piece work basis and quality control suffers. Limited availability of skilled trades people in boom times does not help. At present, there are no licensing or certification requirements for contractors in B.C., nor are there any third party warranty requirements. Realty Marketers Sales people may be competent to close a deal, but generally have limited technical knowledge. They stress fashion elements, ignoring technical merit, creating a situation where extra square footage of marble will be stressed rather than a more compact but better designed and built unit. Planning Officials Planning restrictions have encouraged inappropriate design. In some municipalities, areas under roof overhangs were counted as square footage, so as a result in no overhangs that could offer protection to walls were built. Sometimes there was an insistence on flat roofs when pitched roofs were part of the initial design. Yet in other areas, exterior walkways used as corridors were not counted in total square footage, leading to designs with exterior walkways - these just provide extra details that, when done incorrectly, are leakage sources. Architects Architects have ultimate design responsibility. Too often, they cave in to client demands or come up with designs that are inappropriate for the climate. They often do not receive the mandate to properly develop their designs, but to prepare just enough drawings to obtain the necessary permits. Full professional services, including adequate site reviews are not often performed today. It is a sad fact that building science is not a strong suit of architect's training, and most are more interested in Design than in careful attention to technical details to execute the design. Complex, articulated designs ask for problems to happen. They work only if immaculate attention is given to details - yet too often the appropriate detail is not provided. The Architectural Institute of BC (AIBC) has belatedly taken a role in developing a building envelope education curriculum that will cover building science, best practice guides for rain penetration control, inspections and testing, and the roles and responsibilities of professionals. CMHC is developing a "Best Practice Manual" for building construction types found on the West Coast. This document will contain appropriate sample details, and is slated to be ready later this year. Building Inspectors The objective of building code regulations is to mandate basic structural and life safety. In most jurisdictions this means building envelopes are not on the inspection list. The drive to deregulate and down size means that as budgets are reduced building officials often do cursory, audit inspections relying on other professionals to certify compliance with codes and regulations. The City of Vancouver now mandates rain screen design for some cladding types, more explicit detailing of plans at the building permit stage, and certification by third party building envelope professional. Financial Community A large portion the development must be presold before financing is provided so that unrealistic budgets may be set and locked-in before full construction details are finalized. This increases pressures to cut corners if other costs increase as the project progresses. Mortgage lenders and appraisers generally lack a building science background and do not give adequate weight to technical issues. Stylistic marketability concerns are given more value than construction quality. Home Buyers Consumers are aggrieved parties, having to cope with remedial work when things go wrong. Although it is not fair to expect them to know how a building is built, nor to know all the questions to ask, most do not do the research they do when shopping for an automobile or even household electronics. Even as the issue was gaining public awareness, many were not having independent pre-purchase inspections done, only to regret it soon after moving in. Home owners have generally bought into the marketing hype focusing on style, finishes and the expectation of getting the extra few square feet of space, at the expense of inherent construction quality. The Solution There is no single guilty party. Rather it is a breakdown of the entire development process. We are aware that a house-is-a-system, the whole being greater than the sum of the individual parts. However, we seem to have forgotten that the same applies to multi-family projects. An implied expectation has developed that someone else is going to look at our work and will get us out of the glue if a problem immerges. The question has been asked, what happens in Seattle, which has the same climate, similar construction practices and design approaches? The answer may lie in a different legal structure. Americans are very litigious, so each trade tends to pay more attention to their individual jobs. Builders are liable and must guarantee their product for 4 years (water penetration is considered a structural failure). Further, the construction activity has not been as frenzied as it has been in Vancouver over the past decade and there are higher entry requirements for contractors. At the highest levels of the development management team there is an understanding that sound construction principles must be followed. There has to be more responsibility demanded of builders and developers. This may perhaps mean tighter more powerful third party warranties, more rigorous quality assurance procedures, and contractor qualification. Taking quick, prescriptive action on a single material type will not solve the more fundamental issues in the industry. A comprehensive approach that addresses the many issues facing all participants is needed. More emphasis must be placed on quality assurance during construction, including inspections for conformance with current standards. It may not be easy, but creative marketing may be needed to undo the unrealistic expectations that have been generated over the past generation. This means down playing expectations, emphasizing the importance of quality behind the surface, and explaining just why emphasis on that designer features may be wrong. ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Sep 21 21:43:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17139 for ; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:43:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA20582; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:18:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:14:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20121 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Sep 1998 21:14:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199809220114.VAA20121@solstice.crest.org> Date: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:59:16 +0200 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: STEFAN BIRGERSSON Subject: GBlist: Journey to London Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4503 Hello! We are a group of students at The university of Karlstad in Sweden, who are studying ecological buldings as a part of our education to become constructional engineers. We are planning a trip to London at the end of October, therefore we wonder if you have got any suggestions of interesting buildings with an ecological profile in London. If you have any suggestions we would be grateful if you could mail them to this adress rather quickly. Yours sincerely Stefan Stefan Birgersson Last year student at the Bachelor of science with a major in construction and environmental engineering at the University of Karlstad, Sweden ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 22 09:00:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23596 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 09:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09890; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:34:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:31:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09625 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09621 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:30:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JOSEPHCH (207-172-245-173.s173.tnt2.sbo.erols.com [207.172.245.173]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA21061; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:41:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 08:41:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199809221241.IAA21061@smtp1.erols.com> X-Sender: usbt@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu From: Joe Charlson Subject: GBlist: Re: Larson trusses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4504 >The larson truss creates a completely connected wall cavity (instead of >each stud cavity being relatively separate.). An alternate method to create deeper building envelope cavities (walls, slopes, etc.) while maintaining sealed, unconnected spaces is to use rigid polystyrene insulating furring strips. A major advantage of using an insulating furring strip is that they are used parallel to the framing members rather than perpendicular as is done with wood or metal furring. The thermal bridging is reduced by the insulating value of the furring rather than the minimized contact approach of horizontal metal/wood furring over vertical studs. Additionally you get a foam gasket effect behind drywall or sheathing joints, helping to achieve tighter construction. US Building Technology currently makes such products for the residential industry. -Joe ****************************************** Joe Charlson United States Building Technology, Inc. http://www.erols.com/usbt 701-B Waverly Street,Framingham, MA, 01702 USA Tel: 508-424-0055, Fax: 508-424-0050 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 22 11:28:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25821 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:28:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16337; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 11:03:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:58:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15964 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:58:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15959 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:58:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000024600 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:06:43 -0500 Date: Tue, 22 Sep 98 10:19:43 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: Builders in Virginia To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5514844.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4505 dsagan@sover.net writes: > Does anyone out there know a good builder in the area around >Charlottesville VA, specifically Afton VA. I am in the process of helping a >woman who has land and a house she wants to build. She is looking for >someone with a commitment to green building practices , etc. >Thanks in advance- Danny Sagan- Randolph Ctr, VT- Fred Tuttle Country Check with Thomas Fisher (tfisher@environdc.com), who is an architect out of Charlottesville and active member of this list. I suspect he'll know a few. BC -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 22 13:48:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA29221 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:48:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25647; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:23:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:19:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25061 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from relay1.mnsinc.com (relay1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25055 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:18:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by relay1.mnsinc.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA19628 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:29:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: hardwick@mailhost.mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5514844.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 13:27:38 -0400 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Builders in Virginia Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4506 980922 The folks at Wintergreen Resort, esp in the architectural review function, should also be a resource. Just down the road from Afton, Va, in Nelson County. 1-800-325-2200, I believe. Be advised that SOME of what goes up there is really schlock, though. Buyer beware is still applicable. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 22 23:18:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA09787 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:18:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA26751; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:49:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA26431 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:49:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA26427 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 22:49:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.155] (rkd27.acadia.net [205.217.217.155]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA10527 for ; Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:00:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:00:05 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Larson trusses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4507 Our friend Neil Carter did scores of buildings here in Maine using Larsen trusses. He knows as much about them as anyone. He and his family recently moved to Hawaii, but I think that Marc Rosenbaum may have their address. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 23 08:22:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA01229 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:22:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA11578; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:57:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:53:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA11332 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:53:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA11328 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.198.23.35] (uA1-b2.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.35]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA00881 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:04:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 08:04:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: leather - sneaker workshop Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4508 I forgot to mention that the life cycle of a sneaker activity I referred to in my post on leather is one of a number of activities available as presentations to high school classes from NYS Energy Rsesearch and Development Authority tos in New York State. The other activities cover building related energy use and waste management. The sneaker activities illustrate the concepts of ecological costs in life cycle analysis. The ERDA folks are Craig Kneeland and Seth Leitman (518-862-1090). Terry Brennan Camroden Associates ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 23 15:39:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA10018 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:39:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09088; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:14:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:10:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA08503 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:09:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA08497 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.246.4.21] (iplink21.crocker.com [205.246.4.21]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA20075 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:20:51 -0400 X-Sender: brucecol@crocker.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:30:38 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Larsen Trusses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4509 I have done four or five buildings (house) over the past 15 years using Larsen trusses - I actually built two of them myself (unusal for an architect) and they are still standing ... even more unusual. I don't know what the original question was. Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 23 16:33:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA11044 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:33:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA13564; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:08:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:05:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA13130 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:04:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (root@kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA13122 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.70.20 (pm2-20.hoosier.net [206.106.70.20]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09812 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:15:52 -0500 Message-ID: <360956F4.1EF8@ns.hoosier.net> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 15:15:48 -0500 From: John Bower Reply-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Discussion Subject: GBlist: Waterbased Polyurethane Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4510 I'd like to report a bad experience with a product I've recommended in the past. I often recommend waterbased polyurethane finishes for sensitive people because they outgas quickly. In fact, most sensitive people tolerate these products within a week of application. Based on my past personal experience, one particular finish I've recommended is Aqua Zar. However my recent experience has been dismal. I applied (at the recommended coverage rates) 4 coats of Aqua Zar to all the floors of my new house, and 3 coats to all the woodwork, doors, and cabinetry. It outgassed quickly and looked great. However, we quickly noticed that even a single drop of water would damage the cured finish. The finish doesn't seem to be impervious to liquids. In fact a drop of water goes right through the 4 coats on the floors and soaks into the wood within seconds. The company's response has been to "blame the victim." They say I didn't apply enough finish. But, they did offer me 15 gallons of free finish as a good faith gesture. I applied 30 gallons originally, and am assuming I'll have to apply close to another 30 gallons. So, I have turned down their offer because I simply can't take a chance on having to finish everything a third time. Needless to say I'm extremely disappointed, and don't look forward to refinishing everything while trying to live in the house. I regret having recommended Aqua Zar in the past, and hope no one I've recommended it to has has a similar experience. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 23 16:56:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA11561 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:56:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15280; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:30:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:25:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA14800 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:25:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m27.boston.juno.com (m27.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.186]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14794 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:25:41 -0400 (EDT) From: jmcniece@juno.com Received: (from jmcniece@juno.com) by m27.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DPUXX652; Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:36:16 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Larsen Trusses Message-ID: <19980923.144227.10311.0.JMcNiece@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.23 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-35 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 16:36:16 EDT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4511 Sacie Lambertson wrote: >>Anyone out there use Larson trusses when they want a super insulated wall??.<< (snip) >> Is there a consensus about the 'best' system for wall building? Would be interested in hearing what you have to say. << I would be particularly interested in learning why one might prefer Larsen trusses or an interior load-bearing double stud wall over an exterior load-bearing double stud wall. Put another way, what are the liabilities of the exterior load-bearing double stud wall system, that would cause one to decide not to use it? Clearly the wall expands to the interior, and therefore diminishes square footage. What else might be considered a negative aspect of it? I find this to be a pretty spiffy wall system (load-bearing stud wall with insulation + additional insulation in cavity [between stud rows] + non-load-bearing framing with more insulation), but maybe I'm missing something. Joanie McNiece _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 24 10:21:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24790 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:21:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24989; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:55:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:50:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24558 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:50:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24550 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:50:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.137.73.102] (henyusr0-a21.herd.tds.net [208.137.73.85]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA12385 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:01:44 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:01:44 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: GBlist: Waterbased Polyurethane Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4512 John Bower's post about using water-based polyurethane and then finding the finish was not water resistant has got me wondering about the material I just used. In the past I've used Parks "Safe and Simple" water based polyurethane, which was one of the earliest such products. It was labelled as being for interior or exterior use. I never tried using it for exterior use, but I have noticed that it must contain UV inhibitors because wood covered by it does not darken with age. In a room where some wood is coated with water-based, that wood hasn't darkened at all while other wood covered with solvent-based poly has darkened, as evidenced by the lighter tone of the wood where sunlight is blocked by hanging pictures. So, when I recently looked for more water-based poly for interior wainscoting I again looked for a brand that claimed interior/exterior use. But I couldn't find any locally amoung 3 or 4 major brands. Has water-based poly become such a commodity that manufacturers have "cheapened" their formulations? Or were Parks' claims overblown in the first place? Does anyone know of a brand which is suitable for exterior use in terms of water repellancy (or even interior use according to John's experience!), or which has UV inhibitors? Several of the brands specifically recommend their solvent based products for exterior or heavy duty use. I hope they aren't doing that just because a higher-quality water-based would cost a little more and they're worried they wouldn't have high enough sales to justify marketing it. As far as healthiness, I found that it was still worthwhile to do all my painting outdoors on a windy day. The water-based poly's contain glycol ethers and some contain formaldehyde. After a few days of drying they seemed to be safe for someone with chemical sensitivities, unlike solvent based, which can reek for months. And that reminds me of an incident that happened 10 years ago before I switched to water-based. I painted some pine boards with solvent-based polyurethane in a workshop away from my living area. When I came back the next day, the floor of the workshop was covered with hundreds of dead flies, that had obviously been killed by the fumes. On a related issue, it seems that Glidden's Spred 2000 zero-VOC interior paints are discontinued, but are being replaced by their ProMaster "low odor" brand, which is also zero-VOC. I'm not sure if they are the same formulation, but that's what my local paint store said. The ProMaster worked fine and for me had virtually no odor even during application. I don't think it is available pre-tinted though, as the Spred 2000 was, so to get colors you would have to add tints which do contain some solvents. I wonder whether interest in green products is waning? Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 24 10:32:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25363 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:32:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25992; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:07:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:03:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25573 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:03:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25568 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id JAA0000024918; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:14:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980924141718.00705030@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:17:18 -0500 To: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham), greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Larsen Trusses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4513 ... even more unusual. I don't know >what the original question was. Have received numbers of responses to the idea of the Larsen Trust but have heard no one express any thoughts about the question of whether there is a consensus of the best system for super insulation. Also some people have said that the truss is on the inside, some on the outside--that the latter takes up more interior space; but if the entire foot print is larger I can't say that this is going to make a difference one way or the other----or, another way of saying this, is that if one needs to make up for a thick wall, then make the room larger, or am I missing something? With regard to the above however, why wouldn't it be better to keep the 2x4 construction on the inside so there could be easy access for the plumbing and electrical lines? And finally, what is the down side to building this type of system? Is it cost effective compared to the double wall system? Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 24 13:00:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27718 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:59:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07218; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:34:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:30:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06523 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (daemon@smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06519; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 12:29:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15722; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:38:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-235.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.235), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd015683; Thu Sep 24 09:38:13 1998 Message-ID: <360A7523.6BA35977@primenet.com> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:36:51 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sherri Osborn , "strawbale@crest.org" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" , Martha Cather , ebticfs@aol.com Subject: GBlist: Re: Rastra References: <9809241554.AA29372@wiseguy.rose.hp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4514 Dear Sheri, Here is the latest email address for Rastra. I just got off the phone with Richard at Rastra and he vaguely explained the change. The bottom line is these are *the* Rastra people and the product is terrific. Please keep us all updated on your progress. BTW. Richard says they recommend ICF Wall Coating as it is water proof and does not recommend Western One Coat which isn't. He also says he has found some new sources for glue and stucco materials that will reduce the costs. Their site is under construction, but there certainly is more information than the old www. Rastra.com. click here: http://www.ebticfs.com/ Regards, John WIlson Nogal, NM. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 24 13:50:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA28651 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:50:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10765; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:24:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:20:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA10353 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:20:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10346 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:20:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.254.3.67] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:36:35 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Rastra Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 10:34:25 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1305489100-1849631@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4515 Richard may say that he's "the" Rastra guy. But Rastra of the Americas probably would have a different opinion. Also the Rastra corporate web site (which, in the interest of full disclosure, we host on our server) can be found at: www.rastra.com This site is under construction, but the parent company's address and phone can be found there. You can see several other Rastra distributors at www.baubuilder.com Environmental Building Technologies is only one of several sources for Rastra materials, and good information about how to use them. Bruce S >Dear Sheri, > >Here is the latest email address for Rastra. I just got off >the phone with Richard at Rastra and he vaguely explained >the change. The bottom line is these are *the* Rastra people >and the product is terrific. Please keep us all updated on >your progress. > >BTW. Richard says they recommend ICF Wall Coating as it is >water proof and does not recommend Western One Coat which >isn't. He also says he has found some new sources for glue >and stucco materials that will reduce the costs. Their site >is under construction, but there certainly is more >information than the old www. Rastra.com. > >click here: http://www.ebticfs.com/ > >Regards, >John WIlson >Nogal, NM. ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 24 14:24:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA29123 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:24:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13131; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:55:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA12761 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:54:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (daemon@smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12755 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18087; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:05:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-120.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.120), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd018051; Thu Sep 24 11:05:29 1998 Message-ID: <360A8997.FF87CD38@primenet.com> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 11:04:08 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Sullivan CC: Green Building Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Rastra References: <1305489100-1849631@irisinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4516 Dear Bruce, These are my words not his. I have known Richard for some time and believe he is a very credible source. There have been other sources such as EnerGrid (which is no longer in business) which also may have taken acceptation to my characterization of Richard's organization were they still in business. It is unfortunate for this fine building material that there is all this "intrigue" as to who is what. Richard has a toll free telephone number and over the past more than a year, he has been available and supplying product. I trust he will remain in business and believe he and his distributors are *the* source until I see otherwise. John Bruce Sullivan wrote: > Richard may say that he's "the" Rastra guy. But Rastra of the Americas > probably would have a different opinion. Also the Rastra corporate web > site (which, in the interest of full disclosure, we host on our server) > can be found at: > > www.rastra.com > > This site is under construction, but the parent company's address and > phone can be found there. > > You can see several other Rastra distributors at > > www.baubuilder.com > > Environmental Building Technologies is only one of several sources for > Rastra materials, and good information about how to use them. > > Bruce S > > >Dear Sheri, > > > >Here is the latest email address for Rastra. I just got off > >the phone with Richard at Rastra and he vaguely explained > >the change. The bottom line is these are *the* Rastra people > >and the product is terrific. Please keep us all updated on > >your progress. > > > >BTW. Richard says they recommend ICF Wall Coating as it is > >water proof and does not recommend Western One Coat which > >isn't. He also says he has found some new sources for glue > >and stucco materials that will reduce the costs. Their site > >is under construction, but there certainly is more > >information than the old www. Rastra.com. > > > >click here: http://www.ebticfs.com/ > > > >Regards, > >John WIlson > >Nogal, NM. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com > Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 > Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com > -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 24 15:23:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA00532 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:22:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA16827; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:57:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:53:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA16469 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:53:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bna.bellsouth.net (mail.bna.bellsouth.net [205.152.80.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA16461 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spencers (host-209-214-112-18.bna.bellsouth.net [209.214.112.18]) by mail.bna.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA24980; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:04:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <360A9851.6AB7@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 14:06:57 -0500 From: spencers Reply-To: bardsong@bellsouth.net Organization: bardsong X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CN CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Waterbased Polyurethane References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4517 We've been using Parks and others to seal our stringed instruments for a while now and have yet to see a bad finish OR one ruined by water, beer, spit, etc. And yes it does contain all that UV stuff. So untill a better product comes out, we're sticking right here, amigos. Shawn&Jen http://spaceformusic.com/bardsong ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 24 16:22:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA01691 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 16:22:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20494; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:52:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20133 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:52:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA20122 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 15:52:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dell (sa-208-226-93-188.cruzio.com [208.226.93.188]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id NAA01135; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Hal Levin" To: Subject: GBlist: ISIAQ - International Society for Indoor Air Quality and Climate and its web site Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:03:03 -0700 Message-ID: <000d01bde7f6$5782c180$bc5de2d0@dell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <906636911.18714@onelist.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4518 Note: apologies for cross-posting. The International Society for Indoor Air Quality and Climate (ISIAQ) is a professional society with membership open to IAQ professionals throughout the world. Membership benefits include a subscription its official journal, the very high quality, quarterly scientific and professional IAQ journal, Indoor Air, a subscription to the ISIAQ newsletter, and discounts on major international IAQ conferences such as the triennial series Indoor Air 'xx and Healthy Buildings 'xx (see below for web sites). It has come to my attention that certain search engines return the web address for the old ISIAQ web site, one maintained until a few months ago and now defunct. If you go to the old web site, it tells you the site is discontinued, but it does not direct you to the new ISIAQ web site The web site for ISIAQ is at www.isiaq.org. Check it out. Membership information and much more can be found there. Indoor Air '99 will be held in Edinburgh, Scotland, August 8-13, 199. Although the deadline for abstracts was September 15, they are still accepting them for the next few weeks. The web address is www.ia99.org. Healthy Buildings 2000 will be held in Helsinki, Finland, August 6-10, 2000. The web address is www.hb2000.org/. Hal Levin hlevin@cruzio.com Building Ecology Research Group 2548 Empire Grade, Santa Cruz, CA 95060 tel 831 425 3946 fax 831 426 6522 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Sep 24 19:44:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA04553 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:44:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA03607; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:14:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA03249 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:13:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03245 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:13:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [129.170.40.225] (ka4-225.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.225]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA31872 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 19:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 04:26:56 -0400 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Polyglass Elastoflex? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAA03246 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4519 Hallo, all. In my efforts to get a waterproof membrane with some granulation (so that the living roof won't become a living berm just below the eaves), I've run across a product called Elastoflex, made by Polyglass USA. There's not much in the few pages I have on exactly what it is, but it does say that it's a "polyester or glass reinforced modified bitumen roof membrane. Anyone have any experience with it? I'm thinking of using it as the top layer, for keeping the straw in the living roof from going places on a 6-in-12 roof. The bottom layer of the waterproof membrane would be regular Bituthene 3000. As a side note, for all you owner-builders, remember to call around if you're having trouble finding something. I've been inquiring of building supply places all across the state about getting some Bituthene. I called one of the local building supplies, who wanted to sell me a different product. When I pointed out that the product they were trying to sell me was inferior and inappropriate for the use, they investigated what I wanted and told me that there was a minimum order of about three times what I needed. WR Grace (the manufacturer) referred me to a distributor, who sent me a credit application, and then when I applied for credit they told me that they only sell to retail outlets and not to contractors. I asked them what the hell I was supposed to do if retail outlets wouldn't order it in the quantity I needed, and the third person I asked said that he didn't understand the problem, because they sold it in single rolls if necessary. So I called the local building supply and put them in touch with this guy at the distributor. They called back and told me that they could order a single roll or a small amount, but they couldn't quote me a price until I'd placed my order. I told them that they weren't getting an order until I had a price. They said that they'd get back to me, and then didn't. I was ready to give up. After three weeks of this I happened into another local building supply place where I don't shop much because they're consistently more expensive. I went on that day because it was convenient, looking for a totally unrelated item. While I was there, I took the opportunity to ask if they'd ever heard of Bituthene, and whether they could order it. They said, "Sure. How much do you need? We've got about ten rolls down back." I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. So if you can't get what you want, persevere and make a stink until *everyone* gives you a good reason why not. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 25 00:27:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA08720 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:27:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA14180; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:02:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 24 Sep 1998 23:58:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA13494 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 23:57:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA13486 for ; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 23:57:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-08-131.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.129.131]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA20815; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:08:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:18:52 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDE81A.13200060.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Gregory Thomas'" Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Larson trusses Date: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 15:09:29 -0400 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4520 On Monday, September 21, 1998 10:18 AM, Gregory Thomas [SMTP:G_Thomas@compuserve.com] wrote: > The larson truss creates a completely connected wall cavity (instead of > each stud cavity being relatively separate.). This means you need to be > very careful about the internal and external pressure boundaries (air > barriers). A leak one place will connect to everywhere else, especially > with fiberglass batts. Also, getting a dense pack with cellulose can be > more difficult and wet spray doesn't like a deep cavity. > > This can be a big problem if you don't pay attention to the air barrier > details. The Larsen truss IS a good way to get a superinsulated wall system, but Mr Thomas' concerns are exactly on the money. One might add that if any water vapour gets in the wall system, it wil travel very quickly to the cold side and almost certainly condense since the large thickness of low-density insulation will not impede its movement. The potential for lateral air flow, especially around corners, and vertical convective loops, especially when the space is not perfectly filled, are large. Note that the outer chord of the truss is also exposed to extreme temperature and humidity conditions and is difficult to repair or replace. For these reasons, I prefer a wall system with its structure as far to the inside as possible, with insulating sheathing providing a significant amount of the total insulation capacity (from 20 to 40% depending on how cold the climate is). Some vapour resistance and/or moisture storage capacity at this layer is also desirable. For example, 2x6 studs with 2" of EXPS will provide close to R30 and be very resistant to condensation from vapour from the exterior or interior. The cladding will accumulate any moisture that does want to condense (where it might be drained), and this cladding can be easily replaced/repaired. Larsen trusses are a good system for superinsulated walls, but they have their limitiations and potential problems too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------ John Straube Building Engineering Group Building Envelope Engineering University of Waterloo 165 Albert St Waterloo, Ont., Canada N2L 3G1 Waterloo, Ont., Canada N2L 3T2 Phone: 519 888 4567 X2378 519 741 7920 Fax: 519 888 6197 519 885 5193 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 25 01:26:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA09147 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 01:26:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA16115; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 01:01:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:57:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA15864 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:57:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from neptune.imagen.net (neptune.imagen.net [204.244.138.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15860 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 00:57:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [204.244.138.80] (ss26.imagen.net [204.244.138.80]) by neptune.imagen.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2232.9) id T19MPA17; Thu, 24 Sep 1998 22:09:05 -0700 X-Sender: elizwhite@mail.imagen.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 22:06:43 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: elizwhite@saltspring.com (Elizabeth White) Subject: GBlist: Larsen Trusses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4521 >Sacie Lambertson wrote: >>>Anyone out there use Larson trusses > when they want a super insulated wall??.<< >(snip) >> Is there a consensus about the 'best' >system for wall building? Would be interested >in hearing what you have to say. << >Joanie McNiece wrote: >I would be particularly interested in learning >why one might prefer Larsen trusses or an >interior load-bearing double stud wall over an >exterior load-bearing double stud wall. I've used interior loadbearing double stud walls, exterior loadbearing double stud walls, Larsen trusses, and other framing systems. I don't think there is a 'best' system, it all depends on the situation, and client and builder preferences. Exterior loadbearing is useful when speedy close-in is needed and space not at a premium. Interior loadbearing simplifies air barrier detailing and the junction with exterior foundation insulation. Larsen trusses are great for exterior retrofits. The one new project we did with a version of a Larsen truss we insulated with dry-blown cellulose, which we monitored for subsequent settlement. No problems that I recall. Elizabeth White __________________ Elizabeth White, sustainable housing solutions 171 Vesuvius Bay Road, Saltspring Island, B.C. V8K 1K3 phone: (250) 537-2616 fax:(250) 537-2681 email: elizwhite@saltspring.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 25 10:16:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12899 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00134; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:51:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:47:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA29664 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:47:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA29649; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:47:09 -0400 (EDT) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ800215; Fri, 25 Sep 98 07:57:48 -0600 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA116442; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 07:57:24 -0600 Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 07:57:24 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: best wall system In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4522 You said:"Is there a consensus about the 'best' system for wall building?" _________________________________________________________________________ Sacie: There is not one BEST wall system for all projects.It depends on whether it is a new or recofit project. It depends on local climate, construction methods, budget, etc. We have used Larsen Trusses, double wall construction, stackwall, rammed earth, strawbale, Eco-studs, piggy-back systems, prefabricated panels, and standard construction. EACH has its strengths and weaknesses, and until you have actually worked first hand on real projects, ONLY then can you appreciate the advantages and disadvantages, the opportunities and limitations of each construction method. Each has limitations, depending on numerous criteria, and each method can benefit from improvements. There is no perfect solution, not yet. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 25 10:39:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA13349 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01524; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:13:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:08:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01135 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:08:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01131 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:08:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uymfdlvk (dial-60-MAX-BTVT-06.ramp.together.net [208.13.204.60]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA23874 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:19:03 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980925101747.007c8870@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:17:47 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re: water-based ureathanes In-Reply-To: <199809240600.CAA10975@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4523 John Bower -- Thanks for the tip on one water-based urethane to avoid. I am about to refinish my floors -- can you recommend any particular waterbased polyurethane products that you have had good experience with? Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, inc. Montpelier VT USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 25 11:00:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13656 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:00:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02798; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:34:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:31:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02431 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:30:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nov.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02423 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:30:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.64.42.178] (p178.ts1.diac.com [209.64.42.178]) by nov.diac.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA05890 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:42:18 GMT Message-Id: <199809251442.OAA05890@nov.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: Rastra Date: Fri, 25 Sep 98 08:42:47 -0600 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4524 Here's the story I heard regarding all the confusion regarding Rastra: "Rastra" was the original patented product. Realizing the company was poorly managed, some managers split off and formed "Energrid", which sold the same thing. They built a successfull business with an effective dealer network. The Rastra company sued, and after much confusion, won; Energrid now is gone. Their dealers then had to scramble to get on board Rastra. The original Rastra dealers didn't like that, but the Energrid network was quite good, so the two sales forces had to be combined. They are still sorting that mess out with a fair amount of arguing. In the meantime, numerous dealers sell Rastra, some with overlapping territory, and proposals can always be verified by calling the main office. It's still a good product and is quite popular in certain pockets of the country such as Arizona. Although it's the same size and shape, Rastra blocks are actually slightly lighter in weight than Energrid, and therefor I presume to be somewhat better (more insulative). Both make/made large claims about the "effective" R-value. The product is particularly good for DIY'ers. Buzz Burrell Boulder, CO Sick of being bombarded with "sex, lies, and videotape"? Sign an e-petition asking Congress to censure the President and then move on to real business. It only takes a minute at www.moveon.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 25 11:13:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14296 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:13:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03641; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:48:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:44:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03323 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:44:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03319 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 10:44:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA20134; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 07:55:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-047.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.47), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd020116; Fri Sep 25 07:55:32 1998 Message-ID: <360BAE99.C434D791@primenet.com> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 07:54:17 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Buzz Burrell , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Rastra References: <199809251442.OAA05890@nov.diac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4525 I agree with everything you say here Buzz from my understanding. Also the weight thing is a fact. The Rastra panels are about 165 (10" thick) and the Energrid are/were about 185. It would seem that this might indicate better insulation characteristics. Regards, John Wilson Prescott, AZ. Buzz Burrell wrote: > Here's the story I heard regarding all the confusion regarding Rastra: > > "Rastra" was the original patented product. Realizing the company was > poorly managed, some managers split off and formed "Energrid", which sold > the same thing. They built a successfull business with an effective > dealer network. The Rastra company sued, and after much confusion, won; > Energrid now is gone. Their dealers then had to scramble to get on board > Rastra. The original Rastra dealers didn't like that, but the Energrid > network was quite good, so the two sales forces had to be combined. > > They are still sorting that mess out with a fair amount of arguing. In > the meantime, numerous dealers sell Rastra, some with overlapping > territory, and proposals can always be verified by calling the main > office. It's still a good product and is quite popular in certain > pockets of the country such as Arizona. > > Although it's the same size and shape, Rastra blocks are actually > slightly lighter in weight than Energrid, and therefor I presume to be > somewhat better (more insulative). Both make/made large claims about the > "effective" R-value. The product is particularly good for DIY'ers. > > Buzz Burrell > Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 25 12:23:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15474 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07762; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:54:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07458 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:54:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07453 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:54:16 -0400 (EDT) From: JNH2@aol.com Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id TBEBa19215; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:02:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3e369116.360bbe9a@aol.com> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:02:34 EDT To: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Polyglass Elastoflex? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4526 The Polyglas stuff is essentially a modern form of modified bitumen material. It's good stuff and is well backed up, although the mfr may have some reservations in the application you propose - the granuals are really intended to protect the mod-bit from UV degradation. For anyone looking for medium to small quantities of roofing material, here's a prime source. Call around to your local roof contractors - not the guys who go out and buy Tamko shilgles for re-roofing garages, but the big time roofing guys. They always have bits and pieces of material leftover. I work with a fellow who makes a really good living helping roofing companies streamline their operations and not order 30% too much material, but they still end up with a good deal of "extra" stuff that is already paid for from a previous project, they will likely give it to you to clear their warehouse, or sell it to you at cost. Have a good day, Jim Holdcraft Saint Louis ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 25 12:53:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15963 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10128; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:26:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:23:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09778 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:23:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09770 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:23:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (usr12.cwo.com [207.173.173.22]) by mail.cwo.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA26162 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:33:18 -0700 Message-Id: <199809251633.JAA26162@mail.cwo.com> Reply-To: From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: Rastra- who and what? Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:13:22 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4527 John, You wrote: "... taken acceptation to my characterization of Richard's organization were they still in business. It is unfortunate for this fine building material that there is all this "intrigue" as to who is what." Of greater concern to me is the intriguing what of Rastra. I don't mean what goes into it, or even how it performs. At one point we at the Energy Commission were going to build a "demonstration center" in the under-utilized atrium of our building. We contacted all sorts of people who offer energy and resource efficient building products to find out if they wished to be featured. In exchange we asked (a) what sort of dedication would they make toward explaining the benefits of their product (on-site talks, show and tell demos, literature, etc.), and (b) at what price they would give us the material (the state always underfunds these sorts of projects expecting us to find donations or price breaks). Virtually everytime we talked to them, the price changed. Often the specifications changed. We got so frustrated that we could not count on any certainty from them that we abandoned any idea of featuring, using or even mentioning them in the project. We cannot recommend anyone's product, however, we didn't even want to mention this one after that experience. Nehemiah ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 25 13:01:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16097 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:01:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10664; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:36:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:32:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA10373 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:32:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10368 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:32:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.146]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 6112000 ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:49:34 -0800 Message-ID: <360BC762.E2651110@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 09:40:02 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Shapiro CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: water-based ureathanes References: <3.0.1.32.19980925101747.007c8870@pop.together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4528 I can recommend the Bona-Kemi product for durability, waterresistance, etc. It is a crosslinked product (Mega or Pacific Strong) below is a sheet prepared for a client that were having their floors refinished while occupying the house SUMMARY: Pacfic Strong is a two-component waterborne urethane wood floor finish formulated for interior use on high traffic residential and commercial wood floors. It has low VOC (solvents) which makes it marketable as an environmentally friendly finish. Some chemical effects are still there but they do not remain in the environment for as long as higher VOC products (thats the theory). The main binding ingredients are the two chemicals listed below both of which can cause respiratory problems and have been linked to causing miscarages. The product is more stable after curing 70% after 24 hours and 100% after a week. I would recommend not occupying the house for at LEAST one day after finishing (preferably a week) and then to use fans and keep airing the house for one week. While they are sanding the floors and finishing you should put a fan in one of your bedroom windows or at the balcony door blowing air into the bedroom and a fan downstairs blowing air out of the house- this will pressurize your bedroom room and keep both dust and chemicals from entering and depressurize the rest of the house ensuring that stuff gets out. PACIFIC STRONG - DATA SHEETS SPECIFICATIONS/PHYSICAL DATA: Ingredients - Water, polyurethane/acrylic polymer dispersions, Diethylene Glycol Monomethyl Ether, N-Methyl-2-Pyrrolidone, defoaming and leveling additives Color - Milky white (wet) Odor - Non-offending Clarity - Clear when dry pH - 8.0 Flash Point - > 200° F Stability - 1 year shelf life Drying Time - 1-2 hours Leveling - Excellent Defoaming - Excellent Coverage - 500-600 square feet per gallon Percent Cured After 24 Hours - 70% Maximum Cure - 100% after 1 week Solids - 34% Viscosity - (#4 Ford cup @ 25° C) 16 seconds Density - 8.68 lbs./gallon (1.04 S.G.) Gloss Level - (60°) >85 for gloss, 55 for silkmat VOC Compliant - Does not exceed 350 grams per liter (2.9 lbs. per gallon VOS) Application Tools - Bona Brush, flocked foam Bona Swivel Head Floor Coater, Bona Swedish Roller Pot Life - The finish/crosslinker mixture is active for 8 hours after it is mixed. Within 2-3 days, crosslinker may be added one additional time Packaging - 1-gallon plastic bottle, 2-gallon plastic bottle, Comes complete with crosslinker CHEMICAL OR PRODUCT NAME (CAS #): Diethylene Glycol Monomethyl Ether (111-77-3) SYNONYMS: Methyl Carbitol™, Poly-Solv™ DM, Dowanol™ DM, Diethylene Glycol Methyl Ether, methoxyethoxy ethanol STANDARDS AND REGULATIONS: EPA TSCA Chemical Inventory June 1990, SARA Section 313 Reporting Requirements BOILING POINT: 194 ° C SPECIFIC GRAVITY: 1.01 VAPOR PRESSURE: 0.2 mm Hg at 20 ° C EVAPORATION RATE BuAc=1: 0.020 VOC (Gm/L): 1023 ODP: 0.00 FLASH POINT: 183 ° F AUTOIGNITION TEMP: 430 ° F LOWER EXPLOSIVE LIMIT: 1.38% at 135 ° C UPPER EXPLOSIVE LIMIT: 22.7% at 167 ° C COMBUSTIBLE: Y FLAMMABLE: ___ APPEARANCE: Colorless liquid ODOR: ____________ REACTIVITY DATA: Incompatible with: oxidizing agents WASTE DISPOSAL: May be burned in a chemical incinerator equipped with an afterburner and scrubber TOXICITY: TLV _________ ACUTE EFFECTS: May be harmful by inhalation, ingestion, or skin absorp- tion vapor or mist is irritating to the eyes, mucous membranes, and upper respiratory tract; causes skin irritation; can cause nausea, dizziness and headache CHRONIC EFFECTS: Target organs: female and male reproductive systems. Andy Shapiro wrote: > John Bower -- > > Thanks for the tip on one water-based urethane to avoid. I am about to > refinish my floors -- can you recommend any particular waterbased > polyurethane products that you have had good experience with? > > Andy Shapiro > Energy Balance, inc. > Montpelier VT USA > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 25 14:21:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA21762 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:21:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16026; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:50:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA15460 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jpusa.chi.il.us (root@jpusa.pr.mcs.net [205.164.2.80]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15455 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:50:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.164.2.199] (ppeterson.jpusa.net [205.164.2.199]) by jpusa.chi.il.us (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA22960 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:00:58 -0500 X-Sender: patp@mailbox.jpusa.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 13:01:38 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Pat Peterson Subject: GBlist: wether-tolerant Midwest woods, protective coatings Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4529 Greetings all, I am currently working on plans for a gypsy-wagon / caravan for use in the Midwest, and would like to know if there are any options for environmtentally-friendly woods that may be produced locally (as opposed to buying western red cedar) that would be weather-tolerant or that could be finished/sealed with an e-friendly stain/ sealer. The siding would be tongue and groove (hopefully purchased that way). Thank you for your help. Pat Peterson -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- p a t p e t e r s o n : w h e a t s d e s i g n cornerstone press chicago : www.cornerstonepress.com j e s u s p e o p l e u s a c o v e n a n t c h u r c h 9 2 0 w w i l s o n a v e . : c h i c a g o i l 6 0 6 4 0 http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9478/index.html patp@jpusa.chi.il.us : wheatspace@geocities.com -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 25 15:14:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22749 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:14:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19411; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:48:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:43:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19052 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:43:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19048 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:43:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dell (sa-208-226-93-186.cruzio.com [208.226.93.186]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id LAA29816 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: From: "Hal Levin" To: Subject: GBlist: RE: greenbuilding-digest V2 #322 Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:54:05 -0700 Message-ID: <001801bde8b5$def896c0$ba5de2d0@dell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: <199809250600.CAA17331@solstice.crest.org> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4530 BEWARE! "Zero VOC" is misleading. This is according to the ambient air quality issues, precursors to ozone formation. Thus, EPA has a long list of exempt compounds based on the reactivity of the compounds. So-called zero VOC products often have VOCs and, therefore, for IAQ purposes, this zero VOC label is misleading. IAQ is a poor cousin to ambient air quality in EPA's eyes, as expressed by the continued use of the exempt compounds definition, and by the funding for research and the initiatives related to regulations, or the lack thereof. European data are consistently showing stornger emissions and emissions that last longer for so-called "green" products. See the Proceedings of Healthy Buildings '97 for some of these reports. Therefore, use caution when concluding that water-based products are healthier. Also please use caution when interpreting the experience of chemically-sensitive individuals for the rest of the population. It is tempting to assume the "canary in the mine shaft" model applies. But chemical sensitivity is not necessarily correlated to health effects for non-sensitive individuals. While any of us so-called "normals" could be sensitized by an exposure to chemicals such as formaldehyde or limonene (both found in some low-VOC or "zero-VOC" labeled products. Furthermore, the so-called "natural" solvents such as citrus-based products can have been shown to react with ozone to form irritating compounds including aldehydes. Just in case you were not aware of it, the amount of ozone required for these reactions is around most cities all summer and during warm days in the fall and spring. Only 30 ppb is sufficient to create these reactions. Now Weschler tells us that even 0.1 micormeter particle concentrations increase dramatically when 30 ppb ozone reacts with certain of these alkenes. (See the recent work of Charles J. Weschler published in Atmospheric Environment and also presented at the A&WMA meeting in June, 1998, as well as many of his earlier papers.) Finally, odor itself does not necessarily tell us anything about irritation or health effects. It only tells us about odor. Hal Hal Levin hlevin@cruzio.com Building Ecology Research Group 2548 Empire Grade, Santa Cruz, CA 95060 tel 831 425 3946 fax 831 426 6522 -----Original Message----- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:01:44 -0500 (CDT) From: CN Subject: GBlist: Waterbased Polyurethane [SNIP] As far as healthiness, I found that it was still worthwhile to do all my painting outdoors on a windy day. The water-based poly's contain glycol ethers and some contain formaldehyde. After a few days of drying they seemed to be safe for someone with chemical sensitivities, unlike solvent based, which can reek for months. And that reminds me of an incident that happened 10 years ago before I switched to water-based. I painted some pine boards with solvent-based polyurethane in a workshop away from my living area. When I came back the next day, the floor of the workshop was covered with hundreds of dead flies, that had obviously been killed by the fumes. On a related issue, it seems that Glidden's Spred 2000 zero-VOC interior paints are discontinued, but are being replaced by their ProMaster "low odor" brand, which is also zero-VOC. I'm not sure if they are the same formulation, but that's what my local paint store said. The ProMaster worked fine and for me had virtually no odor even during application. [snip] Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 25 15:17:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22959 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:17:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA19724; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:51:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:46:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA19257 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:46:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA19251 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:46:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.110]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 6155700 ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 12:05:21 -0800 Message-ID: <360BE6F6.49F5DB75@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:54:46 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: milk paint Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4531 We are hoping to inspire a little cottage industry in the area for small scale manufacture of exterior and interior grade casein paints (milk paint). My part is to create the product but am having trouble locating sources and information on industrial or paint grade casein. Would be difficult to inspire anyone in the process of manuf. casein but if there is a clean ready made product out there I thought someone on this list would know. Thanks John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 25 15:56:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA23475 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:56:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22042; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:31:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:26:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21669 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:25:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21665 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:25:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mleslie.netcom.ca (trt-on11-21.netcom.ca [207.181.83.213]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11155 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199809251936.PAA11155@tor-smtp1.netcom.ca> From: "Marshall Leslie" To: Subject: GBlist: Self-Levelling Floor Underlayments/Toppings Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:34:54 -0400 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4532 Dear List: Are any list members aware of reports of microbial growth - either in or on - self-levelling floor underlayments that are formulated from gypsum or cement? What are the causes of these effects? What design or construction practices will prevent them? Have any local, state or model building codes made provision for these types of occurrence? Marshall Leslie, Toronto, ON mleslie@netcom.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Sep 25 18:57:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA26936 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:57:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA28870; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:32:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:24:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA28515 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28496 for ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 18:24:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.70]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 6234600 ; Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:27:55 -0800 Message-ID: <360C1A15.158C1C96@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 15:32:54 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hlevin@cruzio.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: greenbuilding-digest V2 #322 References: <001801bde8b5$def896c0$ba5de2d0@dell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4533 Thanks Hal for stressing this point. When asked about safe products for flooring I mention that coating floors is a relatively recent phenomena and that sand used to be spread on floors and briskly swept out (silicosis?). We certainly have developed some interesting attitudes to what constitutes a finish in an environment. Most people have rejected the sand notion and opted in favour of a urethane in the synthetic dept. or a pure tung oil which is the only oil to provide comparable hardness and water resistance. (most opt for the synthetic) One of the contradictions for me with water based products is the relationship of Diethylene Glycol Monomethyl Ether to miscarriage. One portion of the population that reaches for such 'alternative' products (in my experience) are nesting mothers. I have found few safe products and the base of my interest is to be honest less with occupants (as any degree of alternative generally is an improvement there) than with longer term consequences of product development and usage. John Hal Levin wrote: > BEWARE! "Zero VOC" is misleading. This is according to the ambient air quality > issues, precursors to ozone formation. Thus, EPA has a long list of exempt > compounds based on the reactivity of the compounds. So-called zero VOC products > often have VOCs and, therefore, for IAQ purposes, this zero VOC label is > misleading. IAQ is a poor cousin to ambient air quality in EPA's eyes, as > expressed by the continued use of the exempt compounds definition, and by the > funding for research and the initiatives related to regulations, or the lack > thereof. > > European data are consistently showing stornger emissions and emissions that > last longer for so-called "green" products. See the Proceedings of Healthy > Buildings '97 for some of these reports. Therefore, use caution when concluding > that water-based products are healthier. > > Also please use caution when interpreting the experience of chemically-sensitive > individuals for the rest of the population. It is tempting to assume the "canary > in the mine shaft" model applies. But chemical sensitivity is not necessarily > correlated to health effects for non-sensitive individuals. While any of us > so-called "normals" could be sensitized by an exposure to chemicals such as > formaldehyde or limonene (both found in some low-VOC or "zero-VOC" labeled > products. Furthermore, the so-called "natural" solvents such as citrus-based > products can have been shown to react with ozone to form irritating compounds > including aldehydes. Just in case you were not aware of it, the amount of ozone > required for these reactions is around most cities all summer and during warm > days in the fall and spring. Only 30 ppb is sufficient to create these > reactions. Now Weschler tells us that even 0.1 micormeter particle > concentrations increase dramatically when 30 ppb ozone reacts with certain of > these alkenes. (See the recent work of Charles J. Weschler published in > Atmospheric Environment and also presented at the A&WMA meeting in June, 1998, > as well as many of his earlier papers.) > > Finally, odor itself does not necessarily tell us anything about irritation or > health effects. It only tells us about odor. > > Hal > > Hal Levin hlevin@cruzio.com > Building Ecology Research Group > 2548 Empire Grade, Santa Cruz, CA 95060 > tel 831 425 3946 fax 831 426 6522 > > -----Original Message----- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:01:44 -0500 (CDT) > From: CN > Subject: GBlist: Waterbased Polyurethane > > [SNIP] > > As far as healthiness, I found that it was still worthwhile to do all my > painting outdoors on a windy day. The water-based poly's contain glycol > ethers and some contain formaldehyde. After a few days of drying they > seemed to be safe for someone with chemical sensitivities, unlike solvent > based, which can reek for months. And that reminds me of an incident that > happened 10 years ago before I switched to water-based. I painted some > pine boards with solvent-based polyurethane in a workshop away from my > living area. When I came back the next day, the floor of the workshop was > covered with hundreds of dead flies, that had obviously been killed by the > fumes. > > On a related issue, it seems that Glidden's Spred 2000 zero-VOC interior > paints are discontinued, but are being replaced by their ProMaster "low > odor" brand, which is also zero-VOC. I'm not sure if they are the same > formulation, but that's what my local paint store said. The ProMaster > worked fine and for me had virtually no odor even during application. [snip] > > Chris Neurath > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 26 08:08:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08279 for ; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 08:08:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA15933; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:43:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:38:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA15680 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:37:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA15676 for ; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:37:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id GAA04879 for ; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 06:48:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from unknown(206.217.107.129) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma004875; Sat Sep 26 06:48:06 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980926074612.006c8e5c@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 07:46:14 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Green Building Standards Update Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4534 Green Building Standards Update (GB-List 9/25/98) ------------------------------------------------------------------ Bion Howard, Consultant ASTM E50 Green Buildings Task Group ------------------------------------------------------------------ Immediate Release: Austin, TX Sept. 24, 1998 ASTM holds environmental committee meeting in Austin, TX; ...green building tops the agenda... The American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) committee E-50 "Global Sustainability/Pollution Prevention/Risk Management" met in Austin, TX to conduct reviews targeted at generating consensus standards and guidelines in the area of environmental performance. This brief article summarizes the activities in the area of Green Buildings, conducted by an E-50 subcommittee. Residential Green Building Guide: ASTM completed balloting on the 3-rd draft of this document, with 121 ballots received; of which only 14 were negative (5 from voting members). A number of very useful comments were reviewed by the task group, which includes representatives from a broad spectrum of industry and the environmental building community. There was not sufficient time at the meeting to study every comment, so the task group elected to conduct a letter ballot of the comments review. Following that process the chair person responds to both the committee and to the commenter's and proceeds to resolve the comments. Basically, the task group decided the current document can be corrected to respond to substantive comments, then quickly re-balloted for publication early in 1999. Commercial Green Building Guide: Begun by the US Green Building Council in 1992, and with collaborations from many companies and groups including Carrier Corp., Armstrong Inc., Alliance to Save Energy and others, this draft guideline has been balloted but has yet to achieve approval. Currently this effort needs a new chair-person due to previous volunteer Lawrence Doxey (Austin Green Builder Program...) having to focus on other efforts in his Austin career. ASTM would like to see this effort become better coordinated with industry and the broader environmental building community to reflect current state of the art. The standing draft is now out of date, and needs to reflect the considerable progress in the area of Commercial green building in the last four years. You do not have to be an ASTM member to participate in the standards process. Other Green Building Standards: >> Life cycle assessment guide -- has been completed and is in the final approval process (more news when issued) >> Guide to stewardship/cleaning of Commercial and institutional buildings completed and is in the final approval process (more news when issued) >> Environmentally Sound Forest Management Approaches (nearing completion) >> Evaluation Factors for Green Buildings (new chairperson being sought) There will be future reports on these activities as more progress is made to develop effective and useful green building standards in ASTM. Your comments and ideas for future work and how to promote the use of these types of consensus standards is appreciated. Respond to: ASTM web site: ----------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 26 21:09:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA08048 for ; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 21:09:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA09593; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 20:44:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 26 Sep 1998 20:39:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA09161 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 20:39:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA09156 for ; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 20:38:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.254.3.20] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Sat, 26 Sep 1998 17:55:15 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Breathing Walls Paper Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 17:52:20 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" , "John Straube" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1305289979-3432656@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4535 John Straube's paper was so much in demand that I offered to post it on the Oikos Web site. Now everyone can read about breathing walls, straw bale and Durisol at: http://oikos.com/library/breathingwalls/index.html John will present the paper at the EEBA Conference in Washington DC. The conference runs from October 29-31. Bruce S ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-484-9353 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Sep 26 21:47:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA10900 for ; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 21:47:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA11334; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 21:21:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 26 Sep 1998 21:17:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA11003 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 21:16:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA10999; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 21:16:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id UAA02448; Sat, 26 Sep 1998 20:27:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from unknown(206.217.107.134) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma002442; Sat Sep 26 20:26:57 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980926212457.00707cb8@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 1998 21:25:01 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Costs to Comply W/ Climate Change Treaty...Modest Cc: owner-ee-building@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4536 Posted FYI ----------- White House Economic Analysis Indicates that U.S. Costs to Comply With Climate Change Treaty Would Be Modest (overview from York Int.) "...unquantified environmental, health and economic costs that will be avoided by acting to address climate change could exceed 1% of gross domestic product -- over $80 billion in present dollars." [Dr. Janet Yellen, Chair of the President's Council of Economic Advisors] More at: (please repost as appropriate) | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 27 09:20:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02796 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 09:20:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25794; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 08:55:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 27 Sep 1998 08:49:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA25476 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 08:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA25468 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 08:49:39 -0400 (EDT) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ957916; Sun, 27 Sep 98 06:59:57 -0600 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA114840; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 07:00:19 -0600 Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 07:00:19 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: John Salmen Cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: milk paint In-Reply-To: <360BE6F6.49F5DB75@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4537 You said:" if there is a clean ready made product out there I thought someone on this list would know." ____________________________________________________________________________ John: On July 29, 1998, Regan Warner mentioned on this forum, that he used milk paint with success. He also noted that Lee Valley Tools has the best deal. Instructions for making: "Homemade Milk Paint" are available at: http://pw1.netcom.com/~chubs1/milkpaint.html Also, The Old Fashioned Milk Paint Co. in Groton MA (phone: 508 448-6336) sells the product. I hope this is of interest and use. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 27 20:21:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA16584 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:21:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA17186; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:50:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA16872 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:50:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA16867 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 19:50:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.246.4.24] (iplink24.crocker.com [205.246.4.24]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA12266 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:01:31 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 20:11:24 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Re: water-based ureathanes Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4538 Andy Shapiro asked >...I am about to >refinish my floors -- can you recommend any particular waterbased >polyurethane products that you have had good experience with? Andy, you could try 'Street Shoe' from Basic Coatings. 'Street Shoe' is best applied over a water-based product called "Commercial Coating" or 'Color-Lok' as a first coat. We used it on the floor of the new offices we completed a year ago for Stonyfield Farm INc., and I have used on my own kitchen floor a couple of years ago. So far everything seems to be fine .. durable and good looking. I have obtained it from: Leese Flooring Supplies 63 San Rico Drive Manchester CT 06040 860-649-7627 What have others found so far as 'Street SHoe' is concerned?? BRuce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Sep 27 21:49:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17991 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:49:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21120; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:24:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:18:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20681 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:18:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20677 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:18:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA9-p3.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.195]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id VAA14071 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <360EE629.DB05B9CA@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 27 Sep 1998 21:28:09 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: water-based ureathanes References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4539 Bruce Coldham wrote: > > > > What have others found so far as 'Street SHoe' is concerned?? > > BRuce Coldham We have been using Basic Coatings finishes for about fifteen years, on several dozen floors, with very few problems. I do prefer the Street Shoe version over Easy Street or some other formulations. We have also used the Pacific One and Bona Kemi products with reasonable results. With any of these commercial products it is usually worth using the top of the line version, higher solids content and superior chemistry. The down side is they are also more exacting in terms of installation, far less forgiving. The cheaper versions have a higher acrylic to urethane ratio, making them easier to install but less durable. This is not an endorsement of any of the above products, just a response to Bruce's query. You should research any product you are considering and verify it's suitability for your application. That takes care of the disclaimer. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 29 07:07:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA22295 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 07:07:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA03248; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 06:41:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Sep 1998 06:33:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA02911 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 06:33:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA02907 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 06:33:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA00163 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 06:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 06:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dsy27.vineyard.net(206.166.158.85) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma000147; Tue Sep 29 06:44:20 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: Gutters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4540 Does anybody know of any good roof gutter products being manufactured besides the wood, copper, aluminum, and PVC that we know in out neck of the woods? Thanks - John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 29 08:00:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA22671 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 08:00:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA04401; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 07:35:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Sep 1998 07:28:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA04122 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 07:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from door.bk.tudelft.nl (door.bk.tudelft.nl [130.161.160.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA04099 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 07:28:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from student.bk.tudelft.nl (pstn-bk336342.bk.tudelft.nl) by door.bk.tudelft.nl with ESMTP (1.37.109.24/16.2) id AA099378364; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:26:04 +0100 Message-Id: <3610D3D3.E98A0D2C@student.bk.tudelft.nl> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:34:28 +0100 From: bk336342 Reply-To: P.W.Heijmen@bk.tudelft.nl X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GBlist Subject: GBlist: Please take me off the list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4541 Hi Greenbuilders, I have been on the list for a while and it has been interesting. But it's too much for me, now. Please take me off the list. Thanks. Peter Heijmen ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 29 10:42:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24648 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:42:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10287; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:16:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:12:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09943 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:12:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (root@kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09938 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:12:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from 206.106.67.55 (pm1-23.hoosier.net [206.106.67.55]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23687; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 09:22:44 -0500 Message-ID: <3610ED31.4799@ns.hoosier.net> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 09:22:42 -0500 From: John Bower Reply-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Abrams CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Gutters References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4542 You can always do away with eave-mounted gutters. I installed a shallow trench under the eaves, lined it with plastic sheeting with a perforated plastic pipe, then covered the pipe and filled the trench with crushed stone. As long as its slopes to drain a way, It should work great. It sure does in my case. I've also seen the same type of thing done with a metal grate all along the house under the eaves that's connected to a storm sewer. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 29 12:16:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA25798 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:16:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15219; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:51:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:47:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14838 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:47:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14832 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:47:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id KAA0000000602; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:58:12 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980929160102.00709b70@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 11:01:02 -0500 To: healthy@bloomington.in.us, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Gutters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4543 >You can always do away with eave-mounted gutters. I installed a shallow >trench under the eaves, lined it with plastic sheeting with a perforated >plastic pipe, then covered the pipe and filled the trench with crushed >stone. As long as its slopes to drain a way, It should work great. It >sure does in my case. I've also seen the same type of thing done with a >metal grate all along the house under the eaves that's connected to a >storm sewer. This is a nice solution, one often seen around Japanese houses. Built for the French drain, I have such a trench around the perimeter of my new cabin shell . But I still get splash back off the rock. Therefore gutters will be installed when the metal roof is put on. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 29 13:28:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26604 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:28:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19381; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:01:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:57:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18883 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:57:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18879 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 12:57:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.145]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3328300 ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:13:50 -0800 Message-ID: <36111368.DB30C02E@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 10:05:45 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Gutters References: <1.5.4.32.19980929160102.00709b70@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4544 There is a dispersal gutter made by _____? that breaks runoff into a fine spray which eliminates any need for downspouts, drains, etc. Was considering using it as gutters tend to direct concentrated flows into a single area and dispersion over a larger area is desirable. Was not sure it could handle our winter rains without considerable wetting of walls. John David F. Lambertson wrote: > >You can always do away with eave-mounted gutters. I installed a shallow > >trench under the eaves, lined it with plastic sheeting with a perforated > >plastic pipe, then covered the pipe and filled the trench with crushed > >stone. As long as its slopes to drain a way, It should work great. It > >sure does in my case. I've also seen the same type of thing done with a > >metal grate all along the house under the eaves that's connected to a > >storm sewer. > > This is a nice solution, one often seen around Japanese houses. Built for > the French drain, I have such a trench around the perimeter of my new cabin > shell . But I still get splash back off the rock. Therefore gutters will be > installed when the metal roof is put on. Sacie Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 29 13:58:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27067 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:58:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21632; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:29:26 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21229 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:29:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21218 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA01741 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:40:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 13:40:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from asy3.vineyard.net(206.166.158.22) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma001595; Tue Sep 29 13:39:56 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: Propane and Fuel Oil Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4545 Can anyone tell me, in some detail, what the environmental trade-offs are between these propane and #2 oil as heating fuels: resource issues, harvesting, processing, pollution, etc. Thanks in advance. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 29 15:30:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA29192 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27747; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:05:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:01:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA27386 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:01:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA27372 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:01:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Alisa (usr0a43.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.43]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA18161; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:12:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980929151335.0070a564@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 15:13:35 -0400 To: Pat Peterson , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: wether-tolerant Midwest woods, protective coatings In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4546 Dear Pat, In Vermont we have a locally harvested wood that is commonly known as eastern white cedar, also known as ArborVitae.It is fairly rot resistant when it can dry after wetting. People use it for decks etc. Also white oak, which I believe you can get from a local source , is also fairly rot resistant. There are also people marketting sustainably harvested or recovered Redwood. It sounds like you need a small amount so you may look into finding some salvaged redwood- Good Luck and happy trails- Danny Sagan At 01:01 PM 9/25/98 -0500, Pat Peterson wrote: >Greetings all, > >I am currently working on plans for a gypsy-wagon / caravan for use in the >Midwest, and would like to know if there are any options for >environmtentally-friendly woods that may be produced locally (as opposed to >buying western red cedar) that would be weather-tolerant or that could be >finished/sealed with an e-friendly stain/ sealer. The siding would be >tongue and groove (hopefully purchased that way). Thank you for your help. > >Pat Peterson > >-/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- >p a t p e t e r s o n : w h e a t s d e s i g n >cornerstone press chicago : www.cornerstonepress.com >j e s u s p e o p l e u s a c o v e n a n t c h u r c h >9 2 0 w w i l s o n a v e . : c h i c a g o i l 6 0 6 4 0 >http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/9478/index.html >patp@jpusa.chi.il.us : wheatspace@geocities.com >-/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- -/|\- -\|/- > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 29 16:39:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA00827 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:39:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00469; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:12:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:08:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00234 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:08:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from srunet.sru.edu (srunet.sru.edu [192.148.234.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00229 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:08:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phoenix.sru.edu ([205.149.64.44] helo=rockmail.sru.edu) by srunet.sru.edu with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for greenbuilding@crest.org id 0zO6I4-0000ks-00; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:22:32 -0400 Received: from JACKRUBY ([208.231.49.199]) by rockmail.sru.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with SMTP id AAA5CD3 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:19:35 -0400 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980929201706.0068611c@rockmail.sru.edu> X-Sender: jdt4006@rockmail.sru.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 16:17:06 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Jeremy Truog Subject: GBlist: Agriboard SIPs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4547 Hi there. My name is Jeremy Truog (jdt4006@sru.edu). I am a graduate student at Slippery Rock University in Pennsylvania, in their masters of science in sustainable systems program. For my healthy building systems and materials class I am doing a project on a specific building material...its life-cycle costs, environmental benefits versus more conventional alternatives, etc. I plan on looking at Agriboard SIPs. I have their webpage, but does anyone have any additional info or ideas on where to start looking? I'd really appreciate it, thanks. Also, look into the sustainable systems program here at Slippery Rock, it is a really amazing program! Thanks again, Jeremy Truog ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 29 22:33:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA05202 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:33:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA18501; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:04:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:01:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA18187 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:00:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18181 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:00:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.217] (usr0a48.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.176]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA13110; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:11:33 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:11:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: John Abrams , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Propane and Fuel Oil Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4548 At 1:40 PM -0400 9/29/98, John Abrams wrote: >Can anyone tell me, in some detail, what the environmental trade-offs are >between these propane and #2 oil as heating fuels: resource issues, >harvesting, processing, pollution, etc. I'd suggest for starters that you take a look on your trusty archive of EBN articles in the E Build Library CD-ROM. We wrote a feature article comparing fuel choices back around 1993 I think. Much of it should still be relevant. We have several tables comparing impacts. What, you don't have the E Build Library CD-ROM yet? It's just $95 for EBN subscribers ($149 for non-subscribers) for 37 issues--some 700 pages. Includes all issues from our first in 1992 through the end of 1997. Pages can be printed out for easy reading. A cumulative index for all six years is included that hot-links to articles, plus text-search capability in Adobe Acrobat. This Version 2 edition also has a green building product directory and a bibliography. Alex Wilson, Editor and Publisher Environmental Building News 802/257-7304 http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Sep 29 23:14:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA05812 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 23:14:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA21531; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:48:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:44:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA21275 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:44:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21271 for ; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:44:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.91] (pm0a27.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.91]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA26600; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:55:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:55:40 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980929201706.0068611c@rockmail.sru.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Jeremy Truog , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Agriboard SIPs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4549 At 4:17 PM -0400 9/29/98, Jeremy Truog wrote: >Hi there. My name is Jeremy Truog (jdt4006@sru.edu). I am a graduate >student at Slippery Rock University in Pennsylvania, in their masters of >science in sustainable systems program. For my healthy building systems and >materials class I am doing a project on a specific building material...its >life-cycle costs, environmental benefits versus more conventional >alternatives, etc. I plan on looking at Agriboard SIPs. I have their >webpage, but does anyone have any additional info or ideas on where to start >looking? I'd really appreciate it, thanks. Also, look into the sustainable >systems program here at Slippery Rock, it is a really amazing program! Hello Jeremy, We have covered Agriboard in several articles in Environmental Building News. A few of these articles are included on our Web site (http://www.ebuild.com). Specific URLs for two articles are as follows (or you can find them by navigating through the Web site): Feature article on straw, which includes discussion of Agriboard: http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Features/Straw/Straw.html Article on Agriboard's inflated R-value claims, including link to rebuttal by Agriboard: http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Product_Reviews/Claims.html We also included discussion of thermal mass effect of Agriboard and how it affects R-value in our feature article on Thermal Mass, which is not included on our Web site currently. Good luck with your research. -Alex Wilson, Editor and Publisher Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 30 01:29:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA08190 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:29:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA26562; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:04:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:00:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA26284 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA26272 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:00:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip03.ivnet.net [206.101.73.163]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA01976; Tue, 29 Sep 1998 21:01:37 -0700 Message-ID: <3611BBB1.CE0A0C1@ivnet.net> Date: Tue, 29 Sep 1998 22:03:45 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Sagan CC: Pat Peterson , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: wether-tolerant Midwest woods, protective coatings References: <3.0.3.32.19980929151335.0070a564@sover.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4550 Danny Sagan wrote: > >... There are also people marketting sustainably > harvested or recovered Redwood. > It sounds like you need a small amount so you may look into finding some > salvaged redwood- You might find some salvaged redwood, but I haven't heard of any certified sustainable redwood yet. Most of the redwood which claims "green" parentage is very far from it. Bruce Donelson A better Builder Takilma OR_ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 30 14:10:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA17125 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:10:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24993; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:44:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:39:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24535 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:39:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24524 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:39:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uymfdlvk (dial-43-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.43]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA22515 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:50:29 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980930134939.007b4100@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:49:39 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re:Commercial Skylights In-Reply-To: <199809300600.CAA28082@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4551 I am looking for a commercial skylight for a rather large opening -- about 6 ft square - that is available with a decent thermally broken frame and curb. I have spec'd Therma-Tru before, but the thermal break is vinyl, which may not be up to this size unit, and there are the environmental issues with using vinyl. The architect has spec'd Wasco, which uses a straight aluminum frame, and you supply the curb. Thanks for any suggestions. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 30 14:54:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18114 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:54:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28675; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:28:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:24:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28005 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:24:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from panther.wcs.org (panther.wcs.org [207.198.132.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28000 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:24:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wcs.org ([207.198.134.84]) by panther.wcs.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.52) with ESMTP id AAA48AC; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:34:17 -0400 Message-ID: <36127971.1B772A3B@wcs.org> Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 14:33:21 -0400 From: "Jon Dohlin" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce CC: Danny Sagan , Pat Peterson , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: wether-tolerant Midwest woods, protective coatings References: <3.0.3.32.19980929151335.0070a564@sover.net> <3611BBB1.CE0A0C1@ivnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4552 bruce: contary to popular belief (and common-sense) there are sources for sustainable redwood, particularly in your neck of the woods. one that i know of personally comes from the city of arcata's city forest. the forest is carefully managed, and has been certified by some reputable organization whose name escapes me at the moment. you can get more information on their web-page, or by contacting marc andre, the city forester. jon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Sep 30 20:11:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA24787 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 20:11:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA17200; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:45:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:41:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA16827 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:41:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA16822 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:41:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust96.tnt9.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.26.96]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA25335 for ; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 16:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <36124BD3.7A7B@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 08:18:44 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: wether-tolerant Midwest woods, protective coatings References: <3.0.3.32.19980929151335.0070a564@sover.net> <3611BBB1.CE0A0C1@ivnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4553 Bruce wrote: > > Danny Sagan wrote: > > > >... There are also people marketting sustainably > > harvested or recovered Redwood. > > It sounds like you need a small amount so you may look into finding some > > salvaged redwood- > > You might find some salvaged redwood, but I haven't heard of any > certified sustainable redwood yet. Most of the redwood which claims > "green" parentage is very far from it. > Bruce Donelson > A better Builder > Takilma OR_ Big Creek Lumber in Watsonville, CA (Central California coast) has a certified operation. They do a lot of careful selective harvesting. Yeah, any logging operation looks a bit savage, and I have seen their ugly cuts as well, but they have been known to bring in draft horses to haul out logs when called for. Besides their own yards, you can buy their wood through Hayward Lumber in Salinas, CA, Eco Timber in Berekely, and even (once in a rare while) Truitt & White in Berkeley. It is very high quality wood. seth melchert Master Builders ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 1 09:57:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA03038 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15057; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:27:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14755 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14751 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:27:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1XEVa02329 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:37:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:37:54 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Gutters Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4554 In a message dated 9/30/98 2:13:09 AM, you wrote: >There is a dispersal gutter made by _____? that breaks runoff into a fine spray >which _eliminates any need for downspouts_, drains, etc. And that does this how? I have seen this advertised and felt that it was akin to a garbage compacter (turns five pounds of garbage into five pounds of garbage). A gutter is a necessary evil which takes the water off the roof and channels it away from the house siding and basement. Turning the rain into a fine mist only makes the drop size smaller and does nothing to get the water away. Nice cosmetic touch I guess, if only it could make rainbows at the same time, now there would be a product worth buying! At least it doesn't use energy. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Inc. Contractors, Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 1 10:10:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03329 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 10:10:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15944; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:45:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:41:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15601 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15596 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:41:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Dialin1063.cstone.net ([204.71.8.63]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 216 ID# 0-54117U7500L750S0V35) with SMTP id net; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 09:49:50 -0400 Message-ID: <3613887C.1293@environdc.com> Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 09:49:48 -0400 From: tfisher@environdc.com (Ths. Fisher) X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: jdt4006@sru.edu Subject: GBlist: RE: Agriboard SIP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4555 Jeremy, Down the Pike from you in Loudoun County, Virginia there are plans for the EcoVillage Co-housing development that call for the Agriboard product. (They dropped initial intentions to use a Straw bale system.). I believe Greg Franta is the Architect, Amory Lovins of Rocky Mountain institute was a consultant As Alex's links will describe, Agriboard's initial assertions about a very high R-Value have been somewhat debunked. Does your Slippery Rock program have a web site? Thanks, Tom -- Thomas A. Fisher, AIA Architectural Design & Environmental Design Collaborative http://www.environdc.com (804) 977-1910 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 1 15:49:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA12631 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 15:49:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13383; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 15:23:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 1 Oct 1998 15:18:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA12907 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 15:18:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12899 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 15:18:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.141]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4244100 ; Thu, 01 Oct 1998 13:07:54 -0800 Message-ID: <3613D785.D70F2D02@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 01 Oct 1998 12:27:01 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Caaradrbl@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Gutters References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4556 Well there is energy used in its manufacture. I somewhat agree with you but conventional storm water management may hide worse evils, also if a green edge is being maintained against a building then this kind of product can aid in maintaining a level of moisture. It sure beats seeing a sprinkler hosing down the side of a house. As in everything it could have some benefits or could worsen a bad situation - minimal overhang and prevailing winds sending the spray against a house. In this area it was recently the convention to tie gutter drains into perimeter drains !!! and I imagine given our collective lack of wits that this is still the case in a number of areas. Basically gutters concentrate flows of water and the end result whether directed to storm drains, ditches, whatever, is erosion, contamination and soil loss. So there needs to be some thought given here. Some basic objectives might be - pond or container collection for irrigation use - collection and filtration for domestic use - distribution system for filtration, dispersal and ground water renewal (gravel sand trench, pathways, etc.) John Caaradrbl@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 9/30/98 2:13:09 AM, you wrote: > > >There is a dispersal gutter made by _____? that breaks runoff into a fine > spray > >which _eliminates any need for downspouts_, drains, etc. > > And that does this how? I have seen this advertised and felt that it was akin > to a garbage compacter (turns five pounds of garbage into five pounds of > garbage). A gutter is a necessary evil which takes the water off the roof and > channels it away from the house siding and basement. Turning the rain into a > fine mist only makes the drop size smaller and does nothing to get the water > away. Nice cosmetic touch I guess, if only it could make rainbows at the > same time, now there would be a product worth buying! At least it doesn't use > energy. > Rick Darfler > Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Inc. > Contractors, Ithaca, NY > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 1 23:11:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA04152 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 23:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA07411; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:45:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:41:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07066 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:41:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07056 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:40:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1BCWa17823 for ; Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:51:33 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 1 Oct 1998 22:51:33 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Press Release: HUD Healthy Homes Initiative Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4557 Green Bldg. Subscribers - Thought this HUD Press Release might be of interest to some GB subscribers. Have a good week-end :c) Regards, Cathy Flanders IAQ List Manager Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq IAQ Listserve (to search archives) http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/iaq ============================================================ Cuomo Announces New Life-Saving Healthy Homes Initiative To Protect Millions of American Children from Home Hazards NEW YORK, Oct. 1 /PRNewswire/ -- Housing and Urban Development Secretary Andrew Cuomo today announced a new life-saving initiative that will use TV commercials, newspaper ads, millions of brochures and a toll-free information line to help parents protect their children from potentially deadly hidden dangers in their homes. "Tragically, home hazards kill or injure about 2.5 million American children each year -- a terrible figure that sounds like the casualty toll in a year of war," Cuomo said. "Our children need our protection. For them, reducing home hazards is quite literally a matter of life and death." "Our message to parents is that HUD not only wants to help you buy and keep a home -- we want to help you make your home healthy and safe for your children," Cuomo said. Accidental injuries are the Number 1 killer of children in the United States. TV home improvement expert Bob Vila, host of the television show "Home Again" -- who joined Cuomo at a news conference today announcing the Healthy Homes for Healthy Children initiative -- will appear in both HUD's TV and print ads and in the Department's home safety brochure. The ad campaign will be in English and Spanish. "I'm glad to have this opportunity to work with Secretary Cuomo to help parents learn how to make their homes safer for their children," Vila said. "I get tremendous satisfaction knowing that because of the Healthy Homes initiative children will be saved from injury and even death. I can't think of a more worthwhile public service." Cuomo said he became interested in making homes safer as a result of an accident in his own home in 1996, when his daughter Mariah, then about a year old, pulled down the hot water spigot on a water cooler and scalded one side of her body. She was hospitalized with burns. "As a father of three daughters, I know the greatest pain any parent can experience is to see his or her child suffer," Cuomo said. "Our Healthy Homes initiative will prevent some of that suffering, saving families from the nightmare of sickness or injury caused by an unhealthy home." The HUD initiative is a partnership with several groups and federal agencies that together will distribute millions of the safety brochures throughout the nation and take other actions to help parents make their homes safer. HUD's founding partners for the Healthy Homes initiative are: the American Lung Association, the Mortgage Bankers Association of America, the National Association of Home Builders, the National Association of Broadcasters, the Institute for Business and Home Safety, the National SAFE KIDS Campaign, the Neighborhood Reinvestment Corporation and the NeighborWorks Network, the American College of Emergency Physicians and the American Academy of Pediatrics. In addition to the founding partners, HUD is also partnering with the following federal agencies: the Environmental Protection Agency, the Consumer Product Safety Commission and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Groups will distribute the safety brochures to their members and clients. For example, HUD will give brochures to the approximately 800,000 homebuyers who get mortgages insured by HUD's Federal Housing Administration (FHA) each year. In addition, the Institute for Business and Home Safety, on behalf of the insurance industry, will safeguard about 93,000 nonprofit child care facilities across the United States from dangers associated with natural disasters. The Mortgage Bankers Association will reprint brochures with their logo and distribute them to members around the country. The Neighborhood Reinvestment Corporation and the NeighborWorks Network has pledged to reprint and distribute healthy homes materials to the thousands of NeighborWorks homeowners they help each year. The American Academy of Pediatrics, on behalf of its 53,000 members, will help distribute the Healthy Homes materials at its national and regional meetings. The Emergency Physicians will distribute information to thousands of its members through local chapters. The American Lung Association will incorporate Healthy Homes into its nationwide Indoor Air Quality public outreach campaign. To supplement HUD's advertising campaign, the National Association of Broadcasters will make the spot available to more than 1,100 television stations as a public service announcement giving the message even greater viewership. The Healthy Homes brochure -- called Danger in the Home -- lists 37 simple and useful tips for parents that can make their homes safer for children. It also lists HUD's toll-free hotline -- 1-800-HUDS-FHA -- that parents can call for more information, and gives ways to contact five other groups for additional information. The safety tips cover precautionary moves such as: testing homes built before 1978 for lead paint; using safety gates to keep young children from falling down stairs; making sure that furnaces, fireplaces, wood-burning stoves, space heaters and gas appliances are vented properly to prevent carbon monoxide poisoning; placing non-slip backing on area rugs to prevent falls; locking up guns and rifles and keeping them unloaded; testing homes for radon; keeping appliance cords unplugged and tied up; turning pot handles to the back of the stove to prevent children from knocking down hot food that could burn them; avoiding strings on toys and pacifiers that could strangle young children; installing smoke detectors outside bedrooms on every floor of a home; locking up all medicines and vitamins to keep them away from young children; and setting water heaters to 120 degrees to prevent scalding. In the TV commercials that will be aired, Vila says dangers in the home can include "improperly wired outlets that can electrocute, water coolers that can burn, lead paint that can poison, household cleaners that can kill. To find out about them, call HUD." An announcer then says: "For a free brochure on HUD's Healthy Homes and FHA loans, just call. HUD and FHA are on your side." Words on the screen then give HUD's 800-number for Healthy Homes as the contact "for a free brochure on HUD's Healthy Homes and FHA loans." The headline on the similar newspaper ad for Healthy Homes is: "Your home may not be as safe as you think." HUD is also helping educate the public about home hazards with a Web page devoted to Healthy Homes. HUD's website address is: http://www.hud.gov Healthy Homes information will also be posted on the Web sites of HUD's partners in the initiative. HUD Assistant Secretary-Designee for Housing and FHA Commissioner William Apgar called the Healthy Homes initiative "a win-win for HUD. It makes good business sense for FHA because it will make borrowers aware of FHA and it also is a good public service." To encourage HUD-assisted housing to incorporate the principles of Healthy Homes, HUD is giving preference points in grant competitions to groups that build or rehabilitate housing that is safe for children. Such housing includes items such as child safety latches, smoke detectors, window guards, and devices that limit the temperature of hot water. HUD is also inspecting public housing around the country to ensure that the housing meets Healthy Homes standards for the protection of the 3 million people living in public housing. In addition, HUD-funded housing counseling gives homebuyers information about creating Healthy Homes. SOURCE U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development CO: U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development ("information for one-time member use under the Federal Library Act.") ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 2 12:26:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA12622 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:26:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04653; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:00:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:56:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04071 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:56:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04060 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 11:55:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uymfdlvk (dial-104-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.104]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA19244 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:07:14 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981002120619.007c5870@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 12:06:19 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re: Sustainable Development/Affordable Housing RFP In-Reply-To: <199810020600.CAA14409@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4558 I have been helping VEIC (Vermont Energy Investment Corporation) put together the RFP for this program, as part of VEIC's work with PSE&G. As part of that work, we are now trying to publicize this to the sustainable design community. What better place than here to follow up the EBN publication of this notice? If folks have any suggestions on other lists to post this on, publications to send it to, etc., please e-mail me directly. Please also forward it to anyone you think might be interested. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc. Montpelier VT --------------------------------------------- The New Jersey Department of Community Affairs (DCA) has announced a Sustainable Development/Affordable Housing Pilot Program to promote sustainable development in the context of energy-efficient, affordable housing. This fall, DCA will solicit proposals from housing development teams to design and construct housing that meets a strict set of energy and environmental criteria, including Energy Star Home efficiency standards. Projects are expected to range from 5 to 50 units and can be for new development as well as reconstruction of existing buildings. Developers are encouraged to team up with consultants, planners, architects and builders with demonstrated experience in sustainable design. Proposals will be evaluated by a team of sustainable design experts. The program is partly supported by Public Service Electric and Gas (PSE&G) through their Energy Efficient Home 5-Star Program, which provides incentives which cover the typical incremental cost of meeting the 5-Star/EPA Energy-Star standard. The program is part of Governor Christine Todd Whitman's commitment to preserve the environment by fostering smart planning. A bidders' conference is being planned for early December, which will include at least one presentation on sustainable design, question and answer sessions and a chance for consultants, architects, planners, and others to connect with New Jersey housing developers. For full details and a copy of the RFP, contact Peggy Hutchet at DCA - 609-633-9284. --------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 2 13:02:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA13122 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 13:02:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06946; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:36:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:32:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06577 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:32:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from essential.essential.org ([216.0.124.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06569 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:32:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from essential.org (meghan.essential.org [216.0.124.34]) by essential.essential.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06382 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 12:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <36150319.A521A521@essential.org> Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 12:45:14 -0400 From: Meghan Clancy-Hepburn Reply-To: mch@essential.org Organization: resource conservation alliance X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding list Subject: GBlist: [Fwd: (Fwd) workshop on sustainable building materials, with PVC foc (fwd)] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------093040D722659F2E41161089" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4559 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------093040D722659F2E41161089 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- Meghan Clancy-Hepburn Campaigns Director Resource Conservation Alliance P.O. Box 19367 Washington, DC 20036 tel: 202.387.8030 fax: 202.234.5176 email: mch@essential.org --------------093040D722659F2E41161089 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from essential.essential.org (essential.org [198.4.52.1]) by essential.essential.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA22839; Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:50:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 19:50:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Weissman To: Ned Daly , "Taxpayer Assets Project Todd J. Paglia" , Wood Reduction Clearing House Meghan Clancy-Hepburn Subject: (Fwd) workshop on sustainable building materials, with PVC foc (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Robert Weissman Essential Information | Internet: rob@essential.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 13:40:20 +0000 From: Charlie Cray To: pvc.activism.update@dialb.greenpeace.org Subject: (Fwd) workshop on sustainable building materials, with PVC foc Those interested in learning about alternatives to PVC in construction (where over 60% of the "poison plastic" is used) should consider attending this conference in Boston, November 10. I'm passing along this brief conference announcement from Joel Tickner, the conference organizer. Please get back to Joel if you are interested in attending or want more information. Dear all, I am posting an announcement for a workshop that the Lowell Center for Sustainable Production is hosting on Nov. 10 on sustainable building materials. The workshop will focus heavily on PVC and alternatives in construction. We have a great set of speakers involved including: Trudy Coxe (State Secretary of Environmental Affairs), Gordon Durnil, Ted Schettler, James Melius, MD, Deborah Wallace from Consumer's Union, David Highfield (former design director for McDonough Braungart), and several well known "green architects". Ken Geiser (an architect himself) will be the master of ceremonies. The workshop, in Boston, is free of charge. Please let me know if you need more information, and we'd appreciate your passing this notice on to whomever might be interested in attending. We are hoping that this will be a very important event in the on-going initiative to find alternatives to PVC. Best wishes, Joel Tickner Lowell Center for Sustainable Production November 10 -- Boston, Massachusetts Sustainable Building for a New Millenium Encouraging architects, specifiers, government officials, material designers, and others to think more holistically about development and use of environmentally friendly materials. Special focus on concerns with PVC plastics. Contact: Joel A. Tickner, Lowell Center for Sustainable Production, University of Massachusetts-Lowell, Lowell, MA 978/934-3275, 978/452-5711 (fax), ticknerj@woods.uml.edu (e-mail) --------------093040D722659F2E41161089-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 2 19:00:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA19761 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 19:00:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA24723; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:32:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:28:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24223 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:28:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24219 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:28:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-09-170.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.129.170]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA28827; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:39:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:50:24 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDEE35.8354EBE0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Caaradrbl@aol.com'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Gutters Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:50:19 -0400 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4560 I agree with Rick's sentiment below. The idea of gutters is to take the hundreds to thousands of gallons of water that fall on a roof during a rainstorm and move it away from the house- walls, foudation, and footing- in a controlled manner. The rain "disperser" may work in dry climates, but seems like a silly approach in wet climates (eg those climates that need gutters in the first place. The fine mist created will make it easier for the wind to blow it against the wall too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------ John Straube Building Engineering Group Building Envelope Engineering University of Waterloo 165 Albert St Waterloo, Ont., Canada N2L 3G1 Waterloo, Ont., Canada N2L 3T2 Phone: 519 888 4567 X2378 519 741 7920 Fax: 519 888 6197 519 885 5193 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ On Thursday, October 01, 1998 9:38 AM, Caaradrbl@aol.com [SMTP:Caaradrbl@aol.com] wrote: > > In a message dated 9/30/98 2:13:09 AM, you wrote: > > >There is a dispersal gutter made by _____? that breaks runoff into a fine > spray > >which _eliminates any need for downspouts_, drains, etc. > > And that does this how? I have seen this advertised and felt that it was akin > to a garbage compacter (turns five pounds of garbage into five pounds of > garbage). A gutter is a necessary evil which takes the water off the roof and > channels it away from the house siding and basement. Turning the rain into a > fine mist only makes the drop size smaller and does nothing to get the water > away. Nice cosmetic touch I guess, if only it could make rainbows at the > same time, now there would be a product worth buying! At least it doesn't use > energy. > Rick Darfler ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 2 20:51:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA21490 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:51:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA29403; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:25:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:21:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA29039 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:21:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29035 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 20:21:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust121.tnt5.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.15.121]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA18641 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 17:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <361570B4.4235@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 17:33:08 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Gutters References: <01BDEE35.8354EBE0.jfstraube@golden.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4561 John Straube wrote: > > I agree with Rick's sentiment below. The idea of gutters is to take the > hundreds to thousands of gallons of water that fall on a roof during a > rainstorm and move it away from the house- walls, foudation, and footing- > in a controlled manner. The rain "disperser" may work in dry climates, but > seems like a silly approach in wet climates (eg those climates that need > gutters in the first place. The fine mist created will make it easier for > the wind to blow it against the wall too. > I'll third the motion. It is one the basics of building, in this area. And to repeat a mantra of the cobbers and straw balers: a good house needs a good hat and good boots. Gutters in conjunction with roof overhangs provide exactly the hat part of the equasion. seth melchert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 2 22:49:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA22962 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 22:49:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03425; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 22:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 2 Oct 1998 22:19:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA03071 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 22:18:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03067 for ; Fri, 2 Oct 1998 22:18:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.83]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4906700 ; Fri, 02 Oct 1998 19:24:47 -0800 Message-ID: <36158ADC.2E679F9C@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 19:24:28 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dmelchert@earthlink.net CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Gutters References: <01BDEE35.8354EBE0.jfstraube@golden.net> <361570B4.4235@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4562 As the instigator of of the dispersion I still have to ask the obvious - do you know where your gutters go . . . It's nice to have all that thousands of gallons directed far away but like the previously mentioned garbage just exactly where is it going and in what concentration and to what effect. And does anyone here have plantings or lawn running against their house and how many thousands of gallons are directed there? And just how many leaky gutters are directing concentrated flows into just that rotted section of fascia or wall and sill that just doesn't ever seem to get repaired? Wide overhangs, good siding details, good perimeter drainage details, good foundation details and dispersal gutters seems potentially workable and an efficient and minimal use of materials for the task and might be a good answer for putting rain where it was sort off intended to go and one that might endure with minimal maintenance. Lets not all be too righteous in our building basics or we will all be specifying 8" centers, just in case. Back to the root of the question. John David Melchert wrote: > John Straube wrote: > > > > I agree with Rick's sentiment below. The idea of gutters is to take the > > hundreds to thousands of gallons of water that fall on a roof during a > > rainstorm and move it away from the house- walls, foudation, and footing- > > in a controlled manner. The rain "disperser" may work in dry climates, but > > seems like a silly approach in wet climates (eg those climates that need > > gutters in the first place. The fine mist created will make it easier for > > the wind to blow it against the wall too. > > > > I'll third the motion. It is one the basics of building, in this area. > And to repeat a mantra of the cobbers and straw balers: a good house > needs a good hat and good boots. Gutters in conjunction with roof > overhangs provide exactly the hat part of the equasion. > > seth melchert > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 3 13:53:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA29259 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:53:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24581; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:26:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:22:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24145 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:22:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24141 for ; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-29-178.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.133.178]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA14225; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:33:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:44:11 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDEED3.E6B3DFE0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'John Salmen'" , "dmelchert@earthlink.net" Cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Gutters Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:09:08 -0400 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4563 Sorry John, I have to disagree about your gutter philosophy (no alterate meanings intended!). While your argument "good details and dispersion gutters may be better than bad gutters badly designed that are not maintained", does make some sense, I do not beleive that this is the BEST approach. When people ask for advice on this forum, I for one try to provide low risk options unless there is a reason to try a different approach AND I tell them this is riskier than alternatives. I agree that we should not be "righteous" about basics, since everything deserves a reexamination of assumptions and prinicples from time to time. I know a number of house inspectors, and have done a few myself. One of the first things an inspector checks on the exterior of a house is the eavestroughing, downspouts, AND WHERE THESE DOWNSPOUTS LEAD. If you do not dispose of the water properly, then you have a high probability of problems. Sure, a broken eavestrough can concentrate water and lead to failure, but then what about the valleys and dormers on roofs -- dispersion or not, they will concentrate water. As will any laps or joints in roofing etc. When there are basement leak complaints, it is often the eavestrough that is the problem, but the problem is not that eavestroughs were used, it is that they are broken OR not used at all (like dispersion). My, and others, experience shows that broken eavestroughs AND no eavetroughs result in more probelms than the more normal siutation of eavestroughs that are mostly functional. With special design and care it is unequivocally possible to design a well-performing home without gutters. But it is not standard practise, dispersion "gutters" are not an answer on their own (without being used in conjunction with a large numberof other things) etc. With regard to the contention that the rain "was intended to go" next the house, I disagree. A typical 10 m span roof collects 5 m of water and dumps it along the edge of a roof. Even with a dispersion gutter, the water may be distriuted along only 0.33 m or so. In a 1000 mm (40 inch) rain fall climate then, 1000 litersx 5 m = 5000 l per m length of water is distributed over .33 m, so that the equivelant rainfall seen by this strip is 15000 l per m2, or 15000 mm (600 inches). This is not as God intended. Even in a 10" rain climate (the geographical definition of desert), we are multiplying the rain by 15 and it acts like 150" of rain -- still too much forplants other than rice and lily pads When you water plants, you do so until the plants have enough, say 40- 60 inch per year. You dont keep pouring water like rain fall. If you have well drained soil, and a water table able to accept the rain, it is possible that this concentration of rain can be accepted. But again, unless one does a site visit to ascertain that the house is being built in a gravel pit, it is hard to recommend anything but gutters, directed well away from the house as recommended in all up-to-date housing guides and codes. The rain was intended to go into your basement. Building a house usually puts a bit of a distortion into the ecosystem around it -- this includes the rain water. Green roofs with lots of soil and vegetation probably have less need of a gutter. But non absorbing roofs are "intended" to redirect water away from the house to avoid the obvious concentration that will occur around the perimeter. BTW, if you do the numbers, 24" c.c. is very conservative, so there is no need to consider 8". ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------ John Straube Building Engineering Group Building Envelope Engineering University of Waterloo 165 Albert St Waterloo, Ont., Canada N2L 3G1 Waterloo, Ont., Canada N2L 3T2 Phone: 519 888 4567 X2378 519 741 7920 Fax: 519 888 6197 519 885 5193 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ On Friday, October 02, 1998 10:24 PM, John Salmen [SMTP:terrain@cow-net. com] wrote: > As the instigator of of the dispersion I still have to ask the obvious - do you > know where your gutters go . . . It's nice to have all that thousands of gallons > directed far away but like the previously mentioned garbage just exactly where is > it going and in what concentration and to what effect. And does anyone here have > plantings or lawn running against their house and how many thousands of gallons > are directed there? And just how many leaky gutters are directing concentrated > flows into just that rotted section of fascia or wall and sill that just doesn't > ever seem to get repaired? Wide overhangs, good siding details, good perimeter > drainage details, good foundation details and dispersal gutters seems potentially > workable and an efficient and minimal use of materials for the task and might be > a good answer for putting rain where it was sort off intended to go and one that > might endure with minimal maintenance. Lets not all be too righteous in our > building basics or we will all be specifying 8" centers, just in case. > Back to the root of the question. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 4 11:42:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08348 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 11:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03052; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 11:16:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 4 Oct 1998 11:12:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02796 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 11:12:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02792 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 11:12:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns1.topher.net (ppp16.topher.net [206.136.138.175]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA29749 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:08:29 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199810041508.KAA29749@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: Gutters Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:24:29 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4564 I'm surprised that no one mentioned rainwater collection as one possible path for what to do with rain off the roof. We are collecting off one corner of our roof. We use city water for all indoor uses and rain water for all outdoor uses. Many people are converting to rain water for all indoor needs. In areas with high mineral concentration in the well water it is the only way to go. I probably shouldn't be surprised, but interest in hiring me to consult on rain water (as well as independent power systems) is increasing exponentially as the Y2K scare grows. If an outcome of all this Y2K hype is that many people take stock of their consuption and discover a more sustainable lifestyle, then it might not be such a bad thing after all. By the way, if anyone is near the Dallas area, please come by on October 17th from 10am to 4pm. We will be open for the National Tour of Solar Homes. Check my web site below for directions. Other might want to look at the Solar Energy Society web page for homes near you. Regards, Paul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 4 12:55:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08803 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06533; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:29:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:26:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06242 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:26:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06238 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.144]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 5320700 ; Sun, 04 Oct 1998 10:01:32 -0800 Message-ID: <3617A3B8.5BF79296@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 09:35:05 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: [Fwd: GBlist: Gutters] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------69F83B9D1AE7819AA0C6983D" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4565 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------69F83B9D1AE7819AA0C6983D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------69F83B9D1AE7819AA0C6983D Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline >From terrain@cow-net.com Sun Oct 04 10:00:49 1998 Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.144]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 5320500 ; Sun, 04 Oct 1998 10:00:47 -0800 Message-ID: <3617A38D.7CAA457C@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 09:34:21 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" Subject: Re: GBlist: Gutters References: <01BDEED3.E6B3DFE0.jfstraube@golden.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well now I'm all wet. But I hope you did notice in my earlier post that I mentioned I did not use the product (wet feet). I think your arguments are the better general advice. I do think I or someone else however could make use of the product to some benefit, and I think the design details that would allow for its usage would benefit most buildings. The dispersion is in the .6-.9m range which with wide overhangs and good foundation details give it a greater potential for good ground absorption. Ground dispersal is the point (not plant watering) This is greater dispersal than could be afforded by a perforated pipe system and less initially disruptive than excavation and installation of a distribution system. Because of groundwater and surface water concerns here I tend to use point load foundations rather than perimeter and depending on the ground use no drainage. I've seen drainage concentrate flows against a perimeter (creating a path for heavy flows) and in any event submerging a stopper in the ground does akward things to ground water flows the cumulative affect of which can be creating unstable ground in a lot of our soils. The practicality of wide overhangs speak for themselves and can always be incorporated into a design as benefit rather than questionable expense. Your comments about standard practice and houses disrupting the eco-system are not a starting point for defining a better practice of rainwater control. Dispersal gutters are not obviously a good general answer but it is an available product that if designed for can provide a better alternative - if the goal is dispersion of roof water over the greatest possible area. There are other answers too, some not as readily available. Good to keep this one in mind. Good thing your not visiting with a bunch of water balloons handy. best John John Straube wrote: > Sorry John, I have to disagree about your gutter philosophy (no alterate > meanings intended!). > > While your argument "good details and dispersion gutters may be better than > bad gutters badly designed that are not maintained", does make some sense, > I do not beleive that this is the BEST approach. When people ask for > advice on this forum, I for one try to provide low risk options unless > there is a reason to try a different approach AND I tell them this is > riskier than alternatives. I agree that we should not be "righteous" about > basics, since everything deserves a reexamination of assumptions and > prinicples from time to time. > > I know a number of house inspectors, and have done a few myself. One of > the first things an inspector checks on the exterior of a house is the > eavestroughing, downspouts, AND WHERE THESE DOWNSPOUTS LEAD. If you do not > dispose of the water properly, then you have a high probability of > problems. Sure, a broken eavestrough can concentrate water and lead to > failure, but then what about the valleys and dormers on roofs -- dispersion > or not, they will concentrate water. As will any laps or joints in roofing > etc. When there are basement leak complaints, it is often the eavestrough > that is the problem, but the problem is not that eavestroughs were used, it > is that they are broken OR not used at all (like dispersion). My, and > others, experience shows that broken eavestroughs AND no eavetroughs result > in more probelms than the more normal siutation of eavestroughs that are > mostly functional. > > With special design and care it is unequivocally possible to design a > well-performing home without gutters. But it is not standard practise, > dispersion "gutters" are not an answer on their own (without being used in > conjunction with a large numberof other things) etc. > > With regard to the contention that the rain "was intended to go" next the > house, I disagree. A typical 10 m span roof collects 5 m of water and > dumps it along the edge of a roof. Even with a dispersion gutter, the water > may be distriuted along only 0.33 m or so. In a 1000 mm (40 inch) rain > fall climate then, 1000 litersx 5 m = 5000 l per m length of water is > distributed over .33 m, so that the equivelant rainfall seen by this strip > is 15000 l per m2, or 15000 mm (600 inches). This is not as God intended. > Even in a 10" rain climate (the geographical definition of desert), we are > multiplying the rain by 15 and it acts like 150" of rain -- still too much > forplants other than rice and lily pads When you water plants, you do so > until the plants have enough, say 40- 60 inch per year. You dont keep > pouring water like rain fall. If you have well drained soil, and a water > table able to accept the rain, it is possible that this concentration of > rain can be accepted. But again, unless one does a site visit to ascertain > that the house is being built in a gravel pit, it is hard to recommend > anything but gutters, directed well away from the house as recommended in > all up-to-date housing guides and codes. The rain was intended to go into > your basement. Building a house usually puts a bit of a distortion into > the ecosystem around it -- this includes the rain water. Green roofs with > lots of soil and vegetation probably have less need of a gutter. But non > absorbing roofs are "intended" to redirect water away from the house to > avoid the obvious concentration that will occur around the perimeter. > > BTW, if you do the numbers, 24" c.c. is very conservative, so there is no > need to consider 8". > --------------69F83B9D1AE7819AA0C6983D-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 4 20:39:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA14565 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:39:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA22901; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:12:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:09:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA22406 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:08:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA22402 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:08:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.160] (rkd32.acadia.net [205.217.217.160]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA27093 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:20:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:19:41 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Re: Gutters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4566 Do folks in Northern climates have problems with gutters freezing, with water backing up, potential ice dam problems, etc.? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 4 22:49:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA16096 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 22:49:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00916; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 22:23:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 4 Oct 1998 22:19:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA00636 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 22:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00625 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 22:19:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA8-p53.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.245]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA07621 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 22:30:28 -0400 (EDT) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sA8-p53.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.245] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 22:30:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <36182EEB.B56C28BE@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 22:28:59 -0400 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Gutters References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4567 David M. Foley wrote: > > Do folks in Northern climates have problems with gutters freezing, with > water backing up, potential ice dam problems, etc.? > Certainly is the major reason few houses in my neck of the woods have gutters, proper soil slope and drainage are more typical solutions to roof run-off. Most gutter installs around here, Central NY, don't last long enough to bother with, they are often removed by the first wet, heavy snow, disbursement gutters as well. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 5 06:19:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA21525 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 06:19:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA13314; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 05:52:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 5 Oct 1998 05:49:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA13065 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 05:49:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from idefix.arch.chalmers.se (idefix.arch.chalmers.se [129.16.160.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA13061 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 05:49:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from stefan (a82.arch.chalmers.se [129.16.162.106]) by idefix.arch.chalmers.se (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA03075 for ; Mon, 05 Oct 1998 12:00:23 +0200 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981005115321.006b1850@arch.chalmers.se> X-Sender: wallner@arch.chalmers.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 11:53:23 +0100 To: From: Stefan Wallner Subject: GBlist: search for the greenest buildings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4568 Hi! I work as a postgraduate student in the School of Architecture at Chalmers University of Technology, Sweden. I am trying to find building projects in the ecological frontier where they have dealt with as many ecological aspects as possible. These will be a start of a computerized compilation of interesting, "extreme" architecture that aims for the future building. I will also soon visit some projects in Europe. Projects dealing with only one or a few eco-aspects are only interesting for me if the aspects (technique-, material-, economic-, social-, culture-) are extremely new, unknown or very special in some way. Do You have any information about the most interesting eco-building projects (according to you) in the world, in Europe, in your own country... The goal of my project is to identify useful experiences from holistic frontier projects initiated by participants and NGO:s. I hope to participate in the discussions later on. I am now very busy building my own strawbale house in an ecovillage just outside Gothenburg, Sweden. Kind regards Stefan Wallner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Chalmers University of Technology telephone +46 31 772 23 78 Department of Building Design telefax +46 31 772 23 71 S-412 96 Gothenburg, Sweden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 5 21:30:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA03402 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA02735; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:04:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:59:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA02001 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:58:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA01992 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:58:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-32-68.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.68]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA11965; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:09:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:20:57 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDF0A6.0B0BC500.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'ashcreek@dreamscape.com'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: Gutters Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:18:58 -0400 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4569 On Sunday, October 04, 1998 10:29 PM, Chuck Hinckley [SMTP:ashcreek@dreamscape.com] wrote: > David M. Foley wrote: > > > > Do folks in Northern climates have problems with gutters freezing, with > > water backing up, potential ice dam problems, etc.? > > > > Certainly is the major reason few houses in my neck of the woods have > gutters, proper soil slope and drainage are more typical solutions to > roof run-off. Most gutter installs around here, Central NY, don't last > long enough to bother with, they are often removed by the first wet, > heavy snow, disbursement gutters as well. We dont get more than a few feet (less than about 10) of snow around here, so the problems that Chuck mentioned are not that severe in my parts. But, for long span roofs (over 60 feet) the snow does tend to accumulate and can rip of the gutters. We use 2 techniques rather successfully to deal with this -- one is to use snow straps, straps of 3/4" wide and 20 gauge that pass prom the face of the gutter where the nail passes through and up onto the roof surface, where they are nailed. These snow straps have allowed me to walk on the eavestrough of more than a few metal roofed buildings. They are often used in conjunction with devices attached to the top of the roofing that prevent big chunks of snow and ice to slide off. Secondly, if one uses a 6" fascia board and locates the gutters near the bottom, snow tends to slide over the gutter -- I mentally draw a line at the same slope as the roof and make sure the gutter is below this line. Even with these measures, I know that some blockages due to ice and snow are inevitable, but I think one can avoid most gutters being ripped off. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Straube Building Engineering Group Building Envelope Engineering University of Waterloo 165 Albert St Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3G1 Canada N2L 3T2 Phone: 519 888 4567 X2378 519 741 7920 Fax: 519 888 6197 519 885 5193 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 6 08:26:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08360 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:26:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21734; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:00:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Oct 1998 07:56:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA21453 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 07:56:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21446 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 07:56:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.175] (rkd47.acadia.net [205.217.217.175]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA28445 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:07:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:06:59 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Linoleum Installation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4570 We completed a small nature center last year. Some of the flooring is real linoleum (not vinyl) made by Marmoleum. It was installed in single-color sheets, one meter wide, over a frost-protected shallow slab foundation. Following the manufacturer's recommendations, we used no additives or sealers in the concrete. The linoleum is lifting and "bubbling" in several spots, despite persistent attempts to fix it. The installer is claiming that the slab is excessively moist. Relative humidity levels in the building are in the 40% to 50% range, and there is no sign of moisture or mold and mildew growth on exposed parts of the slab in storage areas. We believe that the problems stem mainly from inadequate expansion gaps at edges and joints, and from the adhesive used. Does anyone else have experience with linoleum, its installation or problems like this? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 6 09:51:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09373 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:51:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25267; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:21:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24950 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:21:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24946 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eliel (ip172.an3-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.14.172]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA20522; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 06:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810061332.GAA20522@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Sender: greenbergman@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 09:25:18 -0700 To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) From: David Bergman Subject: Re: GBlist: Linoleum Installation Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4571 At 08:06 AM 10/6/98 -0400, you wrote: >We completed a small nature center last year. Some of the flooring is real >linoleum (not vinyl) made by Marmoleum. It was installed in single-color >sheets, one meter wide, over a frost-protected shallow slab foundation. >Following the manufacturer's recommendations, we used no additives or >sealers in the concrete. The linoleum is lifting and "bubbling" in several >spots, despite persistent attempts to fix it. The installer is claiming >that the slab is excessively moist. Relative humidity levels in the >building are in the 40% to 50% range, and there is no sign of moisture or >mold and mildew growth on exposed parts of the slab in storage areas. We >believe that the problems stem mainly from inadequate expansion gaps at >edges and joints, and from the adhesive used. Does anyone else have >experience with linoleum, its installation or problems like this? Any help >would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! > >David Foley I had one Marmoleum linoleum floor lift a bit (in an apartment, so moisture was not an issue). The installer was not linoleum-fluent and apparently did not use the right adhesive. Might that be the problem? David Bergman David Bergman Architects/Fire & Water Lighting bergman@cyberg.com http://cyberg.com T 212 475 3106 F 212 677 7291 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 6 11:13:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10803 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:13:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28959; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:46:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:42:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28649 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:42:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28644 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:42:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.197] (pm0a11.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.75]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA16890; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:53:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:53:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199810061332.GAA20522@hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: David Bergman From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Linoleum Installation Cc: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley), greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4572 I would agree that wrong adhesive is a likely culprit, but you can confirm this, D. Foley. At CRBT's Timber Tech House in Missoula, Montana they had similar problems. It turned out that the installer had used a regular vinyl flooring adhesive, which doesn't bond well to the linseed-oil-based linoleum. Only adhesives formulated specifically for linoleum can be used. The linoleum distributor provide adhesive for the linoleum we installed here at EBN. At 9:25 AM -0700 10/6/98, David Bergman wrote: >At 08:06 AM 10/6/98 -0400, you wrote: >>We completed a small nature center last year. Some of the flooring is real >>linoleum (not vinyl) made by Marmoleum. It was installed in single-color >>sheets, one meter wide, over a frost-protected shallow slab foundation. >>Following the manufacturer's recommendations, we used no additives or >>sealers in the concrete. The linoleum is lifting and "bubbling" in several >>spots, despite persistent attempts to fix it. The installer is claiming >>that the slab is excessively moist. Relative humidity levels in the >>building are in the 40% to 50% range, and there is no sign of moisture or >>mold and mildew growth on exposed parts of the slab in storage areas. We >>believe that the problems stem mainly from inadequate expansion gaps at >>edges and joints, and from the adhesive used. Does anyone else have >>experience with linoleum, its installation or problems like this? Any help >>would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! >> >>David Foley > >I had one Marmoleum linoleum floor lift a bit (in an apartment, so moisture >was not an issue). The installer was not linoleum-fluent and apparently did >not use the right adhesive. Might that be the problem? > > Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 6 11:47:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11329 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:47:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01621; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:17:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01031 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:17:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailmessenger.tidalwave.net (mailmessenger.tidalwave.net [208.206.112.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01024 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:17:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tidalwave.net ([208.206.116.38]) by mailmessenger.tidalwave.net (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with ESMTP id 308 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:28:15 -0400 Message-ID: <361A61CA.214BDBA4@tidalwave.net> Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 11:30:37 -0700 From: Khmet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: hydronic heat Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4573 I would like some opinions or suggestions on heat sources for hydronic radiant floor heat for a closed loop system, also can aluminum flashing be used for heat transfer plates? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 6 11:50:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA11378 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:50:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02007; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:24:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:20:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01339 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ci.portland.or.us (pdxnet.ci.portland.or.us [207.109.34.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01298 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from linux1.bis.city (root@linux1.bis.city [10.80.1.15]) by ci.portland.or.us (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA75838 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:33:00 -0700 Received: from issd1.bis.city (issd1.bis.city [10.80.1.16]) by linux1.bis.city (8.7.3/8.7.1) with SMTP id IAA21634 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:30:23 -0700 Received: from Portland-Message_Server by issd1.bis.city with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 06 Oct 1998 08:31:27 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 08:33:36 -0700 From: Curt Nichols To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Energy Savings in Refrigerated Beverage Vending Machines Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4574 Green Building List__ I don't know how many of you may be interested. But, if you're trying to find ways to save energy in refrigerated beverage machines, maybe these initial findings (below) from our tests in Portland, Oregon, will be informative. (Note the cost avoidance values are based on $.05/kWh.) These two tests focused on a new product from Bayview Technology, the Vending Miser. It is an occupancy sensor based control that costs approximately $150. For more details on the product, visit their web site at These are interim results. We expect to test a couple additional energy-saving alternatives -- time clocks and de-lamping -- before we are done, but I thought you might like to see what we've learned so far. We will do a test on the Fanno Creek Clinic machine using a mechanical time clock to shut it off when nobody would be there anyway. And, we hope to get Coke's OK to test their machine in our City Hall with the front panel lighting disconnected. FYI, Curt Curt Nichols City of Portland Energy Office _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ * City Hall (Larger, Newer Coke Machine) Two weeks into our test, the results show good energy savings. Here's a summary: Week 1 No Control 61.9 kWh (3,240 kWh/yr or $162/yr) Week 2 Miser Control 33.1 kWh (1,720 kWh/yr or $86/yr) That means we could cut our energy bill by $76 a year (almost 47% of what the Coke machine uses) and pay for a $150 Vending Miser in two years -- a 50% return on investment. * Fanno Creek Clinic (Smaller, Older Pepsi Machine) Neither the energy use or the energy savings are quite as high. Here's an overview: Week 1 Miser Control 19.8 kWh (1,020 kWh/yr or $51/yr) Week 2 No Control 36.8 kWh (1,970 kWh/yr or $99/yr) That means the control cut the energy bills by $48 a year (about 48% of what the Pepsi machine uses) and pay for a $150 Vending Miser in three years -- a 32% return on investment. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 6 12:12:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA11750 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:12:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03527; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:45:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:42:13 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03117 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:41:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03112 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:41:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from together.net (dial-181-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.181]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA30878; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:53:13 -0400 Message-ID: <361A3CDF.8E661BA8@together.net> Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 11:53:03 -0400 From: Thomas Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Curt Nichols CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Energy Savings in Refrigerated Beverage Vending Machines References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4575 Curt: This is an interesting concept. I hope you keep is up to date with your results. What does the local company managing the vending machines think about this... has it impacted sales at all? De-Lamping: Retailers generally like lots of light for increased sales... and I would anticipate the vending company would have concerns about possible reduced sales if lamp is shut off during normal business hour sales. Any feedback about the de-lamping? Thank you. Tom Anderson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 6 15:38:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA15259 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:38:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15598; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:11:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:07:38 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15236 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:07:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15232 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:07:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id MAA03059 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:18:43 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 6 Oct 1998 12:15:48 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: Hip Roof To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA15233 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4576 Do any of you builder/architects know of designs for a hip roof for a smallish single-family dwelling, that would provide a cathedral ceiling below, would not be dependent on interior walls for support, and would not require extrordinary measures? Are we nutty for even asking? Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 6 17:34:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA17245 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:34:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22734; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:08:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:05:05 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA22414 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:04:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eypdc04.eypae.com (eypdc04.eypae.com [205.234.22.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA22402 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by eypdc04.eypae.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:18:00 -0400 Message-ID: From: Mike Fowler To: "'Jean Gallagher'" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: Hip Roof Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:04:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4577 Jean, Economically you would be able to do a cathedral ceiling with roof trusses. Keep in mind that the interior ceiling slope would be about 1/2 that of your roof. An example would be if your roof slope was 8:12, your interior cathedral ceiling would have a 4:12 slope. That is based on a rule of thumb the truss manufacturer I used on past projects would use. The roof trusses bear on the exterior walls and require no interior support. I designed several residences for clients that wanted a cathedral ceiling with roof trusses, although those were all gable roofs and not hip. In those homes only a portion of the overall roof had a cathedral ceiling, over a family room or master bedroom. Off the top of my head I do not think it would be a problem for a truss manufacturer to incorporate a cathedral ceiling into the hip portion of the roof. My local phone book list under Roof Structures & Trusses some manufacturers, but not the one I use, they are under Lumber and do custom roof and floor trusses for home builders / contractors. Try talking to one near you. Or if they do not usually deal with homeowners, try using an architect, engineer or builder to talk for you. I am curious if others have suggestions or different methods besides roof trusses or stick framing. Mike Fowler Albany, NY -----Original Message----- From: Jean Gallagher [mailto:jean_gallagher@macgate.csuchico.edu] Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 3:16 PM To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Hip Roof Do any of you builder/architects know of designs for a hip roof for a smallish single-family dwelling, that would provide a cathedral ceiling below, would not be dependent on interior walls for support, and would not require extrordinary measures? Are we nutty for even asking? Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 6 19:31:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA19333 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28237; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:05:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:01:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA27895 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:01:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from softhome.net (qmailr@charleston.SoftHome.net [204.144.231.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA27890 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:01:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 7937 invoked by uid 417); 6 Oct 1998 22:24:20 -0000 Received: from libdell96-18.uoregon.edu (HELO cataloging.uoregon.edu) (128.223.85.38) by smtp.softhome.net with SMTP; 6 Oct 1998 22:24:20 -0000 Message-ID: <031401bdf175$dff9ce40$2655df80@cataloging.uoregon.edu> From: "Jon Hoyt" To: "Greenbuilding" Subject: GBlist: Hardwood floor refinishing Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:08:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAA27892 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4578 I am about to refinish my hardwood floors. I have been searching for low VOC waterbased polyurethanes and this is what I've been able to find locally: Safecoat Polyureseal BP by AFM for $95/gal. Carver Tripp Safe and Simple Super Poly by the Parks Corporation for $33/gal. Pacific Strong by Bona-Kemi for $75/gal Basic Coatings Street Shoe by Basic Coatings for $88/gal The Pacific Strong and Basic Coatings products are two-component mixes. That is, a catalyzer must be added at the time of use to initiate the cross-linking process. As far as I can tell, the other two products are just used out of the can as is. Does anyone know what the differences are between these two methods? Is the finish more durable with one or the other? Is it significantly easier to get good results with one method or the other? How about the amount of off-gassing during installation and during use? All of these products have been mentioned on this listserv as having been used successfully, but I'm wondering about the large price discrepancy with the Safe and Simple product. Even taking into consideration the different coverage rates of each formulation, the Safe and Simple still costs half of what the others do. It is available from Home Depot as opposed to hardwood flooring shops, so is the price difference just due to volume discounts, or is there more to is then that? All of the above companies also recommend their sanding sealer as a first coat. What does this do, exactly? Finally, before I get started, does anyone who has done this before have any tips for a first-timer? Thanks, Jon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 6 21:40:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA20694 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:40:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA03707; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:13:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:09:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA03340 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:09:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kalessin.southern.co.nz (kalessin.southern.co.nz [202.37.188.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03322 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:09:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (mail@localhost) by kalessin.southern.co.nz (8.8.5/8.6.6.Beta6) id OAA19451 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:20:26 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from ppp015.southern.co.nz(202.37.189.15) by kalessin.southern.co.nz via smap (V2.0) id xma019431; Wed, 7 Oct 98 14:20:04 +1300 X-Sender: bywateri@southern.co.nz Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:20:32 +1200 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: bywateri@convertech.co.nz (Ian Bywater) Subject: Re: GBlist: search for the greenest buildings Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4579 Hello Stefan I will post to you a colour brochure which details a new passive solar house I had built last year. It may not be "extreme" enough for your study but I hope you find it interesting. Ian Bywater Engineer Christchurch New Zealand ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 7 00:18:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA22416 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:18:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10749; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:48:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA10420 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:48:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA10416 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:48:20 -0400 (EDT) From: JNH2@aol.com Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 9DLQa17824; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:58:59 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:58:59 EDT To: jean_gallagher@macgate.csuchico.edu Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Hip Roof Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4580 Jean, You are only nutty for asking unless: a) you care not a whit about insulation, or b) you are not concerned about a "finished" drywall ceiling, or c) the structure must be "true" to it's form The "cheapest" way to close space to the sky, in a reasonably tradition sense, is to use pre-fab trusses. This is a very effcient structure but one which will either give you a flat ceiling or (with a scissor truss) give you a lower sloped ceiling than the roof outside. There are other ways that do not amount to building-logic suicide, but have strange costs, as noted above. a) Heavy timber - which will probably need cross-ties, but could be insulated on the top side under the roofing membrane or shingles. b) steel bar joists - insulation either hung between or on top of the roof deck, probably will need gussets or collar ties which will be a beast to drywall around. (but will leave lots of neat spaces to run wire and ducts!) The real scary thing to be avoided is not having enough POSITIVE ventilation between the bottom of the roof deck and the top of the insulation. I've read a good number of horror stories of folks coming home to find their dining room ceiling laying on the dining room table due to the build up of vapor in a non- ventilated roof. Gypsum board is not a vapor barrier, neither is latex paint, even if it is called a "latex enamel" - the mere act of occupying a space and breathing forces moisture right through the surface of the walls. The scissor truss is likely your best bet, but there is a distinct limit to the slopes available - look in the yellow pages and call up your local truss maker, if you give them the interior span you want and the roof pitch you think you want they can tell you what ceiling pitch you can have. The advantage to this truss design is that you can go wild insulating and there will be (or should be!) plenty of space up near the peak to ensure that moisture can get out, just have to be careful at the bearing points to allow for air-flow across the narrow portion. Hope this helps, and no, you are not nutty for asking - if people didn't ask semi-nutty question occasionally then no one would ever firgure out new ways of shaping the built environment. Good Luck, Jim Holdcraft Saint Louis ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 7 03:08:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA23522 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 03:08:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA16108; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 02:42:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 7 Oct 1998 02:39:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA15812 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 02:38:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu (eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.223]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA15808 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 02:38:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kurt (dialin079.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.89]) by eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA09279; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <361B0ED8.53C6@uidaho.edu> Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 23:48:56 -0700 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jean Gallagher CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Hip Roof References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4581 Jean, How 'bout exposed built-up double bolted trusses on long span centers supporting structural insulated roof panels? Kurt Rathmann Moscow, Idaho Jean Gallagher wrote: > > Do any of you builder/architects know of designs for a hip roof for a > smallish single-family dwelling, that would provide a cathedral ceiling > below, would not be dependent on interior walls for support, and would not > require extrordinary measures? Are we nutty for even asking? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 7 09:20:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01920 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:20:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26772; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:53:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:50:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26283 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:49:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26278 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:49:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id IAA0000007792; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:01:11 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981007130401.0070e7ac@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 08:04:01 -0500 To: JNH2@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Re: vapor barriers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4582 Gypsum board is not a vapor barrier, neither is latex paint, even if it is called a "latex enamel" - In Jim's reply to the hip roof questions he said the above. Our SIP manufacturer says to cover the interior OSB with a vapor barrier and then specifies gyp board. We have some ceiling areas of our very steeply pitched roof that will be either behind a knee wall or will otherwise be inaccessible, non-living space. I had thought about simply painting that with a latex paint, but wondered if even that was necessary, or even wise. Now Jim is suggesting that neither the board nor the paint qualify. I will ask the manufacturer, but I would appreciate a better explanation of the requirement for a vapor barrier to cover the OSB in a SIP condition. Certainly in a stick built wall a vapor barrier is used and then it's placed behind the drywall--------. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 7 10:19:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02620 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:19:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29981; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:52:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:49:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA29474 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA29470 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:48:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.137.73.82] (henyusr0-a18.herd.tds.net [208.137.73.82]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA12861; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:00:12 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:00:12 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: GBlist: Hardwood floor refinishing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4583 Jon, I've been looking into your same questions about low VOC finishes for hardwood floors. My only helpful information at this point is that I have found a place where you can get a small sample of the AFM stuff to try. I've opened the can to check for smell but haven't actually applied it to a piece of flooring yet. I am very impressed with it's lack of obnoxious odor. I recently did some wainscotting using an equivalent to the Carver Tripp poly and there is some smell involved while working with it and for a few days after while it dries. I wouldn't want to have to live in a room (or house) during those few days. I am somewhat chemically sensistive. However, after a few days, it seems to me to have totally out-gassed, and it seems fine (unlike the solvent based polyurethanes whose odor can last for months). And as you note it is much cheaper than the others. As for durability, I have no idea which product will be best. There have been a few recent posts about polyurethanes that you might want to check in the archives. Source for small samples of AFM products and others. Nontoxic Environments, based in New Hampshire 1-800-789-4348 nontoxic@ici.net Also, prices might be better than you mentioned, although since it would be mail-order shipping might make up the difference. Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 7 10:37:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02910 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:37:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01865; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:11:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:07:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01507 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:07:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01500 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:07:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.131]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 6561600 ; Wed, 07 Oct 1998 07:27:27 -0800 Message-ID: <361B77A8.28A14ED0@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 07:16:08 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: JNH2@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: vapor barriers References: <1.5.4.32.19981007130401.0070e7ac@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4584 Hi Sacie There are vapour barrier primers. This was used to some degree in Canada for a while (the airtight drywall approach) but I think has fallen out of use I'm not familiar with it as it was not where I wanted an impervious layer perhaps someone can comment on what problems were experienced. I am a bit surprised the manuf is calling for an additional vb as the eps insulation should qualify as a low permeance insulation - in other words the permeance of the eps in the thickness used is comparable to a poly vb . This is a tricky area as you do not want the potential of moisture trapped between two poorly diffusing materials. I saw some studies on mold growth on gypsum substrate behind and between layers of latex paint. Your code should specify the permeance required for a vb and you can check with the sip manuf. on the permeance of the eps. Installation of the sips is also a factor, seams need to be filled with foam, etc. The exterior cladding will also make a difference. John David F. Lambertson wrote: > Gypsum board is not a vapor barrier, neither is latex paint, even if it is > called a "latex enamel" - > > In Jim's reply to the hip roof questions he said the above. Our SIP > manufacturer says to cover the interior OSB with a vapor barrier and then > specifies gyp board. We have some ceiling areas of our very steeply > pitched roof that will be either behind a knee wall or will otherwise be > inaccessible, non-living space. I had thought about simply painting that > with a latex paint, but wondered if even that was necessary, or even wise. > Now Jim is suggesting that neither the board nor the paint qualify. I will > ask the manufacturer, but I would appreciate a better explanation of the > requirement for a vapor barrier to cover the OSB in a SIP condition. > Certainly in a stick built wall a vapor barrier is used and then it's placed > behind the drywall--------. Sacie Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 7 19:58:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA06019 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02252; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:32:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:28:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01831 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:27:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01822 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:27:50 -0400 (EDT) From: JNH2@aol.com Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id PKRTa03785; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:35:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:35:10 EDT To: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: vapor barriers Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4585 Dear Sacie, A good quality Alkyd (oil based) paint makes a pretty decent vapor barrier - which you could use on the front or back of the gyp. brd to make it vapor impervious. Supposedly, the bitument coating that is between fiberglass insulation and the kraft-paper backing qualifies. To really be sure, that is in areas that really just can't afford to get any moisture, or won't have adequate ventilation to get rid of the moisture a good thickness of poly film or one of the foil-type products is a better bet. I've seen some questions raised about Tyvek (house wrap) that it is an infiltration barrier but not a vapor barrier. This doesn't seem to make sense, how can a material be an air barrier but not a moisture barrier? (aren't mositure molecules bigger than air molecules?) Hope this helps, perhaps some of our other experts have more to illuminate the issue. Later, Jim Holdcraft ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 7 20:26:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA06307 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:26:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA03557; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:59:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:56:17 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA03241 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:56:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03234 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:55:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-34-181.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.181]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA12989; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:07:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:18:48 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDF22F.B10C4D00.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'David M. Foley'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Linoleum Installation Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:00:02 -0400 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4586 While adhesive failures with real linoleum are obviously a concern (I had no idea how common this was until I read some replys) dont rule out moisture yet. The humidity in the building has nothing to do with the slab moisture in a newish building. The condition of unfinished slab has nothing to do with the slab moisture in a finished floor. To assess wether the floor under the linoleum is "too moist" the following simple test can be used (and should be used before flooring applications on new slabs that might be moist): remove some of the flooring, perhaps 3 feet x 3 feet or so immediately tape and tightly seal a sheet of 6 mil poly over the slab, perhaps 2'x2' after 24 hours, observe if moisture is visible on the poly. If it is, the slab is too moist. If moisture is a problem, then the question becomes: is the moisture still the built-in moisture from construction (easily possible for the first 2 years) or is the moisture from the soil below. If you used a capillary break below the slab and the water table has been well below the slab since construction, then built-in moisture is pretty much the only source. If moisture is not a problem, then there are 3 choices (I think): the linoleum is moving too much because of some defect in the material or building operation, the adhesive is not working or not properly applied, or the bond between the slab and flooring is not suffiicient because of some slab surface problems (contamination etc). Hope this helps rule out everything but the adhesive (since this is presumably what you need to do to convince the installer to come back) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Straube Building Engineering Group Building Envelope Engineering University of Waterloo 165 Albert St Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3G1 Canada N2L 3T2 Phone: 519 888 4567 X2378 519 741 7920 Fax: 519 888 6197 519 885 5193 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ On Tuesday, October 06, 1998 8:07 AM, David M. Foley [SMTP:dmfoley@acadia.net] wrote: > We completed a small nature center last year. Some of the flooring is real > linoleum (not vinyl) made by Marmoleum. It was installed in single-color > sheets, one meter wide, over a frost-protected shallow slab foundation. > Following the manufacturer's recommendations, we used no additives or > sealers in the concrete. The linoleum is lifting and "bubbling" in several > spots, despite persistent attempts to fix it. The installer is claiming > that the slab is excessively moist. Relative humidity levels in the > building are in the 40% to 50% range, and there is no sign of moisture or > mold and mildew growth on exposed parts of the slab in storage areas. We > believe that the problems stem mainly from inadequate expansion gaps at > edges and joints, and from the adhesive used. Does anyone else have > experience with linoleum, its installation or problems like this? Any help ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 7 22:14:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07546 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:14:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09930; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:47:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:43:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA09650 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:43:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09644 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.66] (pm0a27.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.91]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA03527; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:53:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:53:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Thomas Eastman , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: GBlist: Re: EcoVillage Job Posting Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4587 Tom Eastman passed this along. Thought it might be of interest to a few folks on the GBlist. -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News At 1:42 PM -0400 10/6/98, Thomas Eastman wrote: >Real Estate Development/Community Development >EcoVillage Project Manager > >Cleveland non-profit community development corporation seeks project >manager to oversee national demonstration project linking the latest in >green building with the principles of the new urbanism movement. Candidate >must have an understanding of environmental building and planning and >demonstrated experience with community organizing, real estate development >and managing projects involving a broad range of components. >Qualifications should also include excellent written and verbal skills and >computer proficiency. > >Please submit letters of interest and resumes by October 15th to Thomas >Eastman, c/o DSCDO, 6516 Detroit Avenue, Suite 1, Cleveland, Ohio 44102. >No phone calls, please. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 7 22:50:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA08024 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:50:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA11199; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:20:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10988 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:20:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10984 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:20:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.132] (rkd33.acadia.net [205.217.217.161]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA04597 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:32:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:31:37 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Hip Roof Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4588 Jean, Of course you're not nutty for asking! The problem you're trying to solve is that you don't want a flat ceiling in your hipped-roof house, but the flat ceiling also acts as collar ties, which resist the outward thrust of the rafters at the top of the wall, and give you a convenient place to put insulation. Scissor trusses, as mentioned by several other folks, are a good way to solve the problem, giving you a cathedral ceiling with half the pitch of the roof. Be sure to get raised-heel trusses, which allow for insulation at the bottom of the truss, by the top of the wall. This is often an under-insulated space. Since you live in or near Chico, CA, you don't need huge amounts of roof insulation. You could insulate rafter cavities framed from 2x10's or 2x12's and get fine results (just remember to ventilate the roof). But how to resist the outward push of the rafters? One thing you could do is to have a cathedral ceiling with exposed collar ties, perhaps every 4 feet on center. These could be 3x6's or 4x8's, rough sawn for a "traditional" look, or stainless steel cable on eyebolts and turnbuckles for a "modern" look, or many other options. One key thing is to fasten the collar ties to the rafters properly - good nailing or bolting. Another possibility is to use a ridge beam or purlins. Rafters won't kick walls out if the loads on the rafters are transferred to a post-and-beam system engineered for the loads. If you don't mind columns, you could have them come down where the ridge of the common rafters meets the hip rafters. Or you could have a series of columns falling, say, at the mid-span of the hip rafters and along a purlin carrying the common rafters at mid-span. Or, you could have two trusses engineered that would be placed where the hip rafters meet the ridge of the common rafters; the trusses would carry the loads to columns located in the exterior walls. (gee, I wish we could DRAW in email - it would be much easier to explain these ideas.) Anyway, any competent architect or structural engineer could help you engineer the roof you want if you don't want scissor trusses or a flat ceiling. Good luck. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 8 09:55:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12999 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:55:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02938; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:25:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02607 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:25:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02594 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:24:59 -0400 (EDT) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ304561; Thu, 8 Oct 98 07:34:45 -0600 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA189026; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:34:50 -0600 Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:34:49 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: "David M. Foley" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: manufactured vs solid 2x10s and 2x12s In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4589 You said:"You could insulate rafter cavities framed from 2x10's or 2x12's and get fine results " _____________________________________________________________________ David:In an effort to save the last of the 300-400 year-old trees (of which there are not many) we do NOT use 2x12 or even 2x10s. Manufactured trusses and rafters such as Wood-Is, TJIs, etc. are a far better substitute from an environmental, thermal, quality and (usually) cost point of view. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 8 11:11:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14222 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:11:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07432; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:41:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07068 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:41:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07062 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 10:40:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust216.tnt9.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.26.216]) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA01060 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <361CD1B7.3DF3@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 07:52:39 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Hip Roof References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4590 David M. Foley wrote: > > Jean, > > Of course you're not nutty for asking! The problem you're trying to solve > is that you don't want a flat ceiling in your hipped-roof house, but the > flat ceiling also acts as collar ties, which resist the outward thrust of > the rafters at the top of the wall, and give you a convenient place to put > insulation. > > Scissor trusses, as mentioned by several other folks, are a good way to > solve the problem, giving you a cathedral ceiling with half the pitch of > the roof. Be sure to get raised-heel trusses, which allow for insulation > at the bottom of the truss, by the top of the wall. This is often an > under-insulated space. > > Since you live in or near Chico, CA, you don't need huge amounts of roof > insulation. You could insulate rafter cavities framed from 2x10's or > 2x12's and get fine results (just remember to ventilate the roof). But how > to resist the outward push of the rafters? > > One thing you could do is to have a cathedral ceiling with exposed collar > ties, perhaps every 4 feet on center. These could be 3x6's or 4x8's, rough > sawn for a "traditional" look, or stainless steel cable on eyebolts and > turnbuckles for a "modern" look, or many other options. One key thing is > to fasten the collar ties to the rafters properly - good nailing or > bolting. > > Another possibility is to use a ridge beam or purlins. Rafters won't kick > walls out if the loads on the rafters are transferred to a post-and-beam > system engineered for the loads. If you don't mind columns, you could have > them come down where the ridge of the common rafters meets the hip rafters. > Or you could have a series of columns falling, say, at the mid-span of the > hip rafters and along a purlin carrying the common rafters at mid-span. > Or, you could have two trusses engineered that would be placed where the > hip rafters meet the ridge of the common rafters; the trusses would carry > the loads to columns located in the exterior walls. (gee, I wish we could > DRAW in email - it would be much easier to explain these ideas.) > > Anyway, any competent architect or structural engineer could help you > engineer the roof you want if you don't want scissor trusses or a flat > ceiling. Good luck. David describes the engineering very well. Another solution I have used, not mentioned in the responses, is to use either a tension ring, or else "opposition". Both are variations on the same theme, and both work best with timber framed roofs. To resist the outward trust of the rafters, the top plate of the wall is held together with a steel band or else steel brackets. Yes, they need to be engineered, but they do work to create the desired effect. Another variation on the collar tie is to use steel rods for the tension member. They are much less visible than a timber spanning the space, and a small diameter length of steel still has tremendous tensile strength. Now since this is on a greenbuilding forum, how about using bamboo instead: it has tensile strength that exceeds steel, and takes a lot fewer BTU's to produce. Of course, the connections are tricky... seth melchert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 8 13:54:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA17231 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:54:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06220; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:26:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:22:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05776 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:22:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05772 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:22:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.168] (rkd40.acadia.net [205.217.217.168]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA09332 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:33:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 13:33:13 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Re: manufactured vs solid 2x10s and 2x12s Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4591 Jorg wrote: >David:In an effort to save the last of the 300-400 year-old trees (of >which there are not many) we do NOT use 2x12 or even 2x10s. Manufactured >trusses and rafters such as Wood-Is, TJIs, etc. are a far better substitute >from an environmental, thermal, quality and (usually) cost point of view. end of quote. Jorg, Of course you're right, and we most often do as you, and use trusses, wood I-beams, ladder trusses, etc. I was thinking of rafter depth, not what the rafter is made of. Thanks for the reminder. Jean, everything I said about the roof framing still applies if you use engineered lumber products, although some of the details will be different. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 8 14:52:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18266 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:52:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09825; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:26:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:22:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09292 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09276 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.162.253.87] (d73.best1.net [205.162.253.93]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA06831 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:33:26 -0700 X-Sender: smcgrath@mail.best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 11:35:48 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: Hip Roof Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4592 it's hard to think of a building that wishes to expose the structural shape of the hip roof structure withou ANY interior walls. These interior walls can be the location for posts that support a ridge or hip that can be cantilevered ; then, with appropraite hardware, hips and ridge can both be exposed. This is a detail I have built many times, as it is a favorite of an architect i work frequently with. With judiciously placed support, the structural shape of the roof can be almost completely exposed. One project had a large hip beam cantilevered and carrying both the ridge and the other hip; cap off the ridge with a ridge skylight and the effect was dramatic to say the least. ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Sunday at 2pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 8 14:52:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18271 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09857; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:26:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:22:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09342 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:22:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09338 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from newcomb-boyd.com ([204.252.122.97]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11312 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:33:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Spooler by newcomb-boyd.com (Mercury/32 v2.11); 8 Oct 98 14:35:06 -0000 Received: from spooler by newcomb-boyd.com (Mercury/32 v2.10); 8 Oct 98 14:35:00 -0000 From: "Richard M. Jones" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:34:58 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Seminars or coferences X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <13C7B07100E@newcomb-boyd.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4593 I am looking to attend a seminar, conference etc. that pertains to green building HVAC design or building systems. Does anyone know of one or know where I could find info on upcoming events. Richard Jones ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 8 17:49:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21304 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:49:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA20415; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:23:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:19:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA20063 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:19:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA20053 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:19:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip24.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.24]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA01030; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:31:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981008214618.0096d870@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 17:46:18 -0400 To: "Richard M. Jones" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Seminars or coferences Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4594 At 02:34 PM 10/8/1998 +0000, Richard M. Jones wrote: >I am looking to attend a seminar, conference etc... The EEBA (Energy Efficient Builders Assoc) is end of this month - you can't go wrong there + it is coupled with the Home Energy Rating Conference. Try http://www.eeba.org best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 9 08:57:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA01751 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:57:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23859; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:30:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:25:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA23371 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:24:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA23357 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.66] (pm2a7.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.199]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA15694; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:36:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:36:13 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <13C7B07100E@newcomb-boyd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Richard M. Jones" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Seminars or coferences Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4595 At 2:34 PM +0000 10/8/98, Richard M. Jones wrote: >I am looking to attend a seminar, conference etc. that pertains to >green building HVAC design or building systems. Does anyone know of >one or know where I could find info on upcoming events. In addition to publishing information on upcoming conferences and workshops in Environmental Building News, we have an even more comprehensive list on our Web site: http://www.ebuild.com. -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 9 09:10:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01844 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:09:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24828; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:43:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:38:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24277 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:38:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24272 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:38:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.31]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 2018300 ; Fri, 09 Oct 1998 08:57:32 EDT Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981009083726.00697e80@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 08:37:26 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Energy 2000 Conference Announcement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4596 Announcing Energy 2000 - Bringing Clean Energy to the Competitive Marketplace - The conference is designed to explore how a competitive market can develop renewable energy capacity, energy efficiency and conservation services to meet customer demand for clean, affordable electricity. Join Clean Energy Advocates and Entreprenures, Energy Suppliers, Non-Profit Organizations, State and Local Government Officials for the Opening of Pennsylvania's Competitive Electricicity Market - Nov. 10-11 at the Harrisburg Marriott. Amory Lovins is one of the keynote speakers. Check out the brochure on our web site for an agenda and registration information - www.paenergycampaign.org. Print out the registration form and mail it in today. Jan Jarrett DON'T MISS PA Campaign for Clean ENERGY 2000 Affordable Energy NOV. 10-11 717-697-2111 HARRISBURG MARRIOTT FOR INFO: WWW.PAENERGYCAMPAIGN.ORG ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 9 10:10:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03351 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 10:10:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27776; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:43:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:40:14 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27546 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27512 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:40:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uymfdlvk (dial-28-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.28]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA06423 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:51:26 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981009094851.007c8780@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 09:48:51 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re: Sustainable Development/Affordable Housing RFP Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4597 I posted the following announcement on the list a week or two ago, and got a reply that the wrong phone number was listed. The following announcement has the correct phone numbers If folks have any suggestions on other lists to post this on, publications to send it to, etc., please e-mail me directly. Please also forward it to anyone you think might be interested. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc. Montpelier VT --------------------------------------------- The New Jersey Department of Community Affairs (DCA) has announced a Sustainable Development/Affordable Housing Pilot Program to promote sustainable development in the context of energy-efficient, affordable housing. This fall, DCA will solicit proposals from housing development teams to design and construct housing that meets a strict set of energy and environmental criteria, including Energy Star Home efficiency standards. Projects are expected to range from 5 to 50 units and can be for new development as well as reconstruction of existing buildings. Developers are encouraged to team up with consultants, planners, architects and builders with demonstrated experience in sustainable design. Proposals will be evaluated by a team of sustainable design experts. The program is partly supported by Public Service Electric and Gas (PSE&G) through their Energy Efficient Home 5-Star Program, which provides incentives which cover the typical incremental cost of meeting the 5-Star/EPA Energy-Star standard. The program is part of Governor Christine Todd Whitman's commitment to preserve the environment by fostering smart planning. A bidders' conference is being planned for early December, which will include at least one presentation on sustainable design, question and answer sessions and a chance for consultants, architects, planners, and others to connect with New Jersey housing developers. For full details and a copy of the RFP: Until October 28th, call 633-6303 at the DCA for information. After that date, contact Peggy Hutchet at the DCA at 609-633-6284. --------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 9 10:50:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03954 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 10:50:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29722; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 10:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 9 Oct 1998 10:20:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29387 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 10:19:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29383 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 10:19:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 10:27:08 -0400 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF27E58A@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Cc: "'Suzanne Parmalee, AIA'" , "'Tom Dietsche or Katie MacCarthy'" , "'Sam Droge'" , "'Noah Simon'" , "'Mark Bundy'" , "'Jonathan Meyer'" , "'Ian Campbell'" , "'Harry Gordon, AIA'" , "Gehley, Doug" , "'Bill Reed'" Subject: GBlist: Paolo Seleri Lecture Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 10:27:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4598 The Lemelson Center at the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American History presents "The Urban Effect," a lecture by architectural trailblazer and ecological visionary Paolo Soleri on Friday, October 23 at 6:30 pm. This is the fifth in its lecture series, "Dialogues on Inventing for the Environment," co-sponsored by AT&T. This event is free and open to the public. Parking is available at the NMAH east lot. Seating is limited and registration is required. Reservations and information: (202) 357-1593. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Drew George, Green Building Champion Bovis Construction Corp 7475 Wisconsin Avenue, 10th Floor Bethesda MD 20814 USA Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 http://www.bovis.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 9 11:49:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04948 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:49:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02721; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:23:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:19:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02397 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:19:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02392 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:18:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JOSEPHCH (207-172-245-61.s61.tnt2.sbo.erols.com [207.172.245.61]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA03535; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:30:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810091530.LAA03535@smtp1.erols.com> X-Sender: usbt@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) From: Joe Charlson Subject: GBlist: Re: manufactured vs solid 2x10s and 2x12s Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4599 David said: "I was thinking of rafter depth, not what the rafter is made of." When you need increased framing depth for insulation purposes alone, the most environmentally friendly choice is to use framing insulation. Rather than using 2x10's or 2x12's, you can use the next size down; for example, use a 2x8 plus 2-inch of framing insulation foam to achieve a bay depth equivalent to that of a 2x10. The snap-on framing insulation is available in both 100% recycled EPS and EPS. Using the dimensional size that is appropriate for structure is the environmental method to design and build. Using 2x6's 16" OC is generally not needed for structure in walls. Using 2x10's or 2x12's in vaulted ceilings or rafeters is also structural overkill and environmentally wasteful. For increased environmental performance, reduced thermal briding, increased air-tightness, and higher R-values, consider framing insulation. You can learn more about this at our web site www.usbt.com or the upcoming Thermal Buildings VII coference in Florida. Although our web site currently focuses on steel framing, I am sure you will see the above benefits with wood and other structural composites. Thanks, Joe ****************************************** Joe Charlson United States Building Technology, Inc. http://www.erols.com/usbt 701-B Waverly Street,Framingham, MA, 01702 USA Tel: 508-424-0055, Fax: 508-424-0050 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 9 15:23:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA09900 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15471; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:57:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:53:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15038 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:53:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15014; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:53:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from centipede.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@centipede.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.91]) by berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id PAA00219; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:03:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by centipede.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with SMTP id PAA18056; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:03:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:03:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@centipede.rs.itd.umich.edu Reply-To: Peter Reppe To: Greenbuilding List , list ECDM , jritterpusch@nahb.com, Rick Heede , black@erim.org, crbt@montana.com, jsailer@aol.com, kar@usgbc.org, info@eeba.org, PSICouncil@aol.com cc: urecord@umich.edu, Steve Blanchard , Peter Haeuser , Christian Hochfeld , Claus Barthel Subject: GBlist: New Life-Cycle-Analysis of Residential Homes Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4600 Possibly the most detailed Life-Cycle-Analysis comparison of two new residential homes undertaken thus far in the United States is now available on the Internet at: http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub/research/lcahome/index.html This peer-reviewed study was conducted last summer at the National Pollution Prevention Center at the University of Michigan. It compares the life-cycle-wide primary energy consumption, global warming potential, and cost of an average-size, new residential home with those of a highly energy-efficient model of the same dimensions. The following life-cycle components are included: -raw material production -manufacturing of all building materials and appliances -home construction -use-phase energy consumption, including replacement parts -demolition -all transportation throughout the life-cycle Please see below for an abstract of the report. Please feel free to contact us for any comments or questions you might have. Best regards, Peter Reppe Research Assistant National Pollution Prevention Center ------------------------------------------------------------------------- LIFE CYCLE ANALYSIS OF A RESIDENTIAL HOME IN MICHIGAN Abstract A 2,450 ft2 residential home (referred to as SH or Standard Home) built in Ann Arbor, Michigan was analyzed to determine total life cycle energy consumption of materials fabrication, construction, use and demolition over a 50 year period. Life cycle global warming potential (GWP) and life cycle cost were also determined. The home was then modeled to reduce life cycle energy consumption by employing various energy efficiency strategies and substitution of selected materials having lower embodied energy (referred to as EEH or Energy Efficient Home). The total life cycle energy was found to be 15,455 GJ for SH (equivalent to 2,525 barrels of crude oil) of which 14,482 GJ (93.7%) occurred during the use phase (space and water heating, lighting, plug loads and embodied energy of maintenance and improvement materials). The life cycle energy of EEH was reduced to only 5,653 GJ (equivalent to 927 barrels of crude oil) of which 4,714 GJ (83.4%) occurred during the use phase. The purchase price of SH was $US 240,000 (actual market value) and determined to be $22,801 more for EEH. Four energy price escalation scenarios were run to determine un-discounted life cycle cost using falling, constant, and rising future energy costs. Accordingly, the un-discounted life cycle cost of SH varied between $791,500 and $875,900 and between $796,300 and $824,100 for EEH. Using a 4% discount rate, the present value cost varied between $423,500 and $454,300 for SH and $433,100 and $443,200 for EEH. Life cycle GWP for SH was determined to be 1,013 metric tons of CO2 equivalent (91.9% during the use phase) and 374 metric tons for EEH (78.6% during the use phase). EEH use of energy efficiency strategies and materials with lower embodied energy reduced pre-use phase energy by 37 GJ (3.9%) while use-phase energy was reduced by 9,768 GJ (67.4%). Total life cycle energy was reduced by a factor of 2.73, and life cycle GWP decreased by a factor of 2.71. (end of abstract) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Reppe e-mail: reppe@umich.edu National Pollution Prevention Center phone : 734-936-2535 University of Michigan fax : 734-647-5841 430 E. University Ann Arbor, MI http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub 48109-1115 U.S.A. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reppe -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greening-of-Dana homepage http://www.snre.umich.edu/greendana/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 9 15:33:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA10095 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:33:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16168; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:06:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:03:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15805 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:03:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15800 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:03:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DQ5ZLQB9; Fri, 09 Oct 1998 15:13:49 EDT To: Schawe@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:16:01 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Air Filters Message-ID: <19981009.151601.19350.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-6,10-16 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4601 Phil, I have no specific recommendations in favor of one portable filter over another except to say that you may wish to include a charcoal unit. HEPA, if I am correct, removes particles, like dust etc., not smoke. Charcoal afterfilters are usually needed to remove odors. One thing I will recommend against is ozone machines. They claim to remove odors and do but the studies done on them show the ozone to be a potential health hazard. One thing it was shown to do is to dry body fluids. Best of luck. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 9 19:19:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA13429 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:19:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA26890; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:51:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:47:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA26561 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26555 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:47:42 -0400 (EDT) From: LitHowie@aol.com Received: from LitHowie@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1CXCa04134 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:58:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37658a8f.361e9518@aol.com> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:58:32 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Termites & Insulated Concrete Forms (ICF Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 214 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4602 I am seeking unbiased (as much as possible) information about termite problems and ICF block foundations. I'm building in NW Arkansas, considered as a heavy termite infestation area. I was all set and thrilled to use Blue Maxx ICFs in the construction of the slab of my new house but when I tried to get exterminators to give me a bid, some they would'nt touch it. I will be using the ICF below grade and up to my treated sill plate in a heavily wooded area infested with carpenter ants and termites allready. Then I came upon a position paper by the manufacturer (AAB) that states that the 1998 CABO code bans the use of rigid foam plastic insulation below grade in very heavy infestation areas. Also the SBCCI has amended its code to ban the use of foam plastic insulation below grade and 6 inches above grade. AAB recommends one leave a 6 - 8" inspection gap just above grade and flash the top. The Pacific NW National Labs (Battelle), contracted by the Dept of Energy, Buildings, Standards and Standards and Guidlines Program told me that there has been a finding that the foam actually emits a chemical gas that smells like wood to the termites. Orkin and other termite companies refuse to warrenty a house using ICFs. The trend seems to becoming more restrictive to ICF use. My energy builder seems personally offended that I'm reconsidering, but whether politics or scientific reasoning is at the heart of the issue, I will feel a real world impact. I know I'm not considered in a "very heavy infestastion" area but I'm nervous that if I use ICFs I'll have a potential problem with carpenter ants and termites and wo'nt be able to get termite coverage which could affect resale value. Is there any alternative insulation for a slab I can use? What did people use for passive solar slabs prior to foam? What about foam block inserts instead so it is surrounded by concrete? Thanks for any feedback. Kate Howard ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 10 08:29:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA18200 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 08:29:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15095; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 08:02:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 10 Oct 1998 07:57:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA14860 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 07:57:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA14856 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 07:57:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-02-77.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.128.77]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA29436; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 08:08:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 08:20:27 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDF426.D66F60C0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'LitHowie@aol.com'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Termites & Insulated Concrete Forms (ICF Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 23:54:33 -0400 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4603 On Friday, October 09, 1998 6:59 PM, LitHowie@aol.com [SMTP:LitHowie@aol.com] wrote: > I am seeking unbiased (as much as possible) information about termite problems > and ICF block foundations. I dont think foam and termites are a disaster, but they are definitely a real, not imagined, problem. Off the record a number of termite treatment companies in Pennsylvania have told me they have seen a grwoing number of infestations of termites in ICF and exterior foam basement. If the foam connects t the above grade, they have a perfect conduit up to the framing. I too am interested in the magnitude of the potential problem. I am not yet sure of how bad or how insignificant it could be. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Straube Building Engineering Group Building Envelope Engineering University of Waterloo 165 Albert St Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3G1 Canada N2L 3T2 Phone: 519 888 4567 X2378 519 741 7920 Fax: 519 888 6197 519 885 5193 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 11 14:56:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA07877 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 14:56:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01658; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 14:29:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Oct 1998 14:24:19 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01390 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 14:24:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01386 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 14:24:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from uymfdlvk (dial-81-MAX-BTVT-06.ramp.together.net [208.13.204.81]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA09064 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 14:35:29 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981011143336.007cb740@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 14:33:36 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re:Termites & Insulated Concrete Forms (ICF In-Reply-To: <199810110600.CAA14759@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4604 With regard to foundation and insulation, how about glass- or mineral-fiber board insulation? Andy Shapiro Energy Balance Inc Montpelier VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 11 23:36:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA15097 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:36:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA18675; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:10:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:05:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18218 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:05:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18210 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000011931; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 22:17:07 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981012031958.00739b48@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 22:19:58 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: wood stoves and make up air Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4605 The rest of the list may know this, but it was news to me to find out that most woodstoves one purchases these days have a knockout for installing a mini-duct that will bring in air from the outside, thereby not depleting the indoor air which in turn reduces air quality. For me this solves one of the major problems of dealing with a very tight cabin while at the same time heating it with a wood stove. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 11 23:36:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA15098 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:36:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA18673; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:10:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:06:09 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18228 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:05:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18219 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000012852; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 22:17:11 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981012032001.00731e44@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 22:20:01 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: SIPs and vapor barriers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4606 Talked to the manufacturer about the need for a vapor barrier and got the reply that it would be a good idea to apply 6 mil poly everywhere there are 2x splines connecting the panels and all across the roof, on the inside, of course. This leads me to some observations about our experience putting together a SIP building, thoughts that I will send out when I have a bit more time. At this point however, I would definitely do it differently next time, if at all. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 11 23:47:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA15269 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:47:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA19161; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:21:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:17:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18889 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:17:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18885 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 23:17:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000008284; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 22:28:44 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981012033135.0073bd10@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 22:31:35 -0500 To: LitHowie@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Termites & Insulated Concrete Forms (ICF Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4607 Kate, R-Control, and others make an insulated concrete system where the concrete is on the outside of the insulation. I know of three systems at least---if you take 'Journal for Light Construction', they had an article about these in the last 18 mos. Also check out a rock wool product called Roxul-- termites shouldn't like it. Lots of ways to insulate plain ole concrete below the surface. How about foam inside the walls, footings, and across the ground to the interior, like a shallow slab foundation with the foam continuing up the walls. Know there will be comments about insulating inside foundation walls--------. Sacie Lambertson I'll try to find the J of LC article if you can't find it. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 12 10:00:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01572 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:00:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04659; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:33:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:28:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA04278 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:28:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04272 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:28:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.66] (pm0a10.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.74]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA25046; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:40:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:40:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19981012032001.00731e44@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "David F. Lambertson" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: SIPs and vapor barriers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4608 At 10:20 PM -0500 10/11/98, David F. Lambertson wrote: >Talked to the manufacturer about the need for a vapor barrier and got the >reply that it would be a good idea to apply 6 mil poly everywhere there are >2x splines connecting the panels and all across the roof, on the inside, of >course. This leads me to some observations about our experience putting >together a SIP building, thoughts that I will send out when I have a bit >more time. At this point however, I would definitely do it differently >next time, if at all. Sacie Lambertson With SIPs, I've long recommended taping the OSB panel joint on the interior with a quality construction tape or foil tape. But I don't know if this is actually done by anybody. Any thoughts from the list on this idea? -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 12 10:57:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02737 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:57:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06933; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:31:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:27:23 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06562 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:27:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.gis.net (ns2.gis.net [208.218.130.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06558 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:27:09 -0400 (EDT) From: redelson@gis.net Received: from [216.41.31.33] ([216.41.31.33]) by ns2.gis.net (8.8.8/8.8.8+djf) with ESMTP id KAA06023 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:43:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:43:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: redelson@208.218.130.20 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Greenbuilding: removing creosote Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4609 Hi folks, Someone brought up wood stoves. So, while on the topic, I have another woodstove question, or rather chimney/creosote question. How do i know if i have "too much" creosote in my chimney? (i.e. a dangerous amount). I was told by one company that i have so much that a simple cleaning won't do; i need a $250-300 "chainwhipping" ... or i could use chemicals. So, is there a cheaper and greener way to deal with it? Can anyone recommend a trustworthy chimney sweeper in the boston area? rebecca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 12 11:29:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03305 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:29:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08483; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:03:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:59:35 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08082 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:59:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08077 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:59:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01827 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:10:25 -0500 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id <4WKP7A21>; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:08:19 -0500 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: manufactured vs solid 2x10s and 2x12s Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 10:08:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4610 Jorg - A 2X10 or 2X12 does NOT necessarily come from 300-400 year old trees....it depends on the tree species AND how and where the tree is grown. Southern pine 2X12's, for example, are likely to be less than 100 years old. You need to give more details when you make such blanket statements. - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com > Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 07:34:49 -0600 (MDT) > From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" > Subject: GBlist: manufactured vs solid 2x10s and 2x12s > > You said:"You could insulate rafter cavities framed from 2x10's or > 2x12's and get fine results " > _____________________________________________________________________ > David:In an effort to save the last of the 300-400 year-old trees (of > which there are not many) we do NOT use 2x12 or even 2x10s. Manufactured > trusses and rafters such as Wood-Is, TJIs, etc. are a far better > substitute > from an environmental, thermal, quality and (usually) cost point of view. > ************************************************************************** > *** > Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 12 12:12:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03915 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:12:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10866; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:46:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:42:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10466 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:42:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10460 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:42:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.112]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 8472000 ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 09:38:22 -0800 Message-ID: <3622257E.BAC84E4C@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 08:51:26 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: LitHowie@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Termites & Insulated Concrete Forms (ICF References: <1.5.4.32.19981012033135.0073bd10@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4611 I checked the AFM product list as I've been on the lookout for foam core concrete systems but only saw the listing for their conc core diamond snap forms which uses a borax (I assume) board they call Perform Guard. I wouldn't mind some references for the systems you mention. We are experimenting with a roxul high density mineral wool board for a small building spraying interior and ext. skins of concrete (stucco) over lathing for structure. Generally I think too much concrete is used in foundations. Floating buildings over high density eps or mineral materials would provide better dampening for earth movement and tremor as well as better thermal efficiency. A foundation then would be restricted to bulding load only and could be shallower. Basements are another question. Digging a hole then building a wall to retain the dirt seems an odd practice at best. John David F. Lambertson wrote: > Kate, > R-Control, and others make an insulated concrete system where the > concrete is on the outside of the insulation. I know of three systems at > least---if you take 'Journal for Light Construction', they had an article > about these in the last 18 mos. Also check out a rock wool product called > Roxul-- termites shouldn't like it. Lots of ways to insulate plain ole > concrete below the surface. How about foam inside the walls, footings, and > across the ground to the interior, like a shallow slab foundation with the > foam continuing up the walls. Know there will be comments about insulating > inside foundation walls--------. Sacie Lambertson > I'll try to find the J of LC article if you can't find it. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 12 12:56:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA04628 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:56:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13086; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:30:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:26:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12725 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:26:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12721 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:26:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA28854; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:37:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va18-36.ix.netcom.com(207.223.180.100) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma028781; Mon Oct 12 11:36:51 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981012123457.007247a4@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 12:34:59 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Nix Termites / Insulated Concrete Forms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4612 Consider Pre-insulated Block Foundations: Why take a chance with pests when you can get pre-insulated concrete block, with legit R-10 to R-12 values? These R values are delivered without marking up through added "mass factors" or through calculational voodoo one frequently sees in typical published masonry energy performance values. These block have the thermal protection materials encased in the masonry. This makes it difficult for critters to get into the materials to gallery. Also they can't easily reach framing (food) above the foundation walls since block walls should be capped or have their top-courses filled. This practice prevents convective coupling of interior spaces with block cores, and to reduce likelihood of radon gas entry. Aside from potential pest problems, I have run several 2-d heat transfer simulations indicating several of the most widely promoted ICF systems overstate their R-values considerably. (We are considering publication of an independent paper to document these results, for a future building science conference.) The only CM block system I know of that has been fully tested (ASTM C976 calibrated hotbox tests) and analyzed - versus just doing ASHRAE steady-state calculations - has been the CBIS "Korfil" HI-R block. Check out their web site at: and drill into their technical data. Not all block plants make the block, but the mold boxes are available for lease I believe, and the high density polystyrene inserts are relatively inexpensive for the final system R-value delivered. Once erected, the block foundation walls can be waterproofed and fitted with one of many excellent "drainage-board" systems and footer drains. The interior wall surface may be architecturally faced (split, ribbed, etc.) to avoid firing and sheet-rocking. This inner surface is also great "thermal mass" for lower level passive solar heat storage -- the inner wythe is 1-5/8 inch masonry with insulating backing -- nearly perfect for diurnal heat storage. I strongly recommend passive solar daylighted basements as cost-effective "lower level living" areas. Bids on their costs per square foot will range from $27 / $42, with perimeter drainage, insulated slab floor, windows and doors installed. A high-mass insulated basement is also a better environment for HVAC equipment and ducts since their losses to ambient are reduced. An insulated, naturally lit basement will also tend to be less prone to moisture problems over its lifespan. (Ethics disclosure: I have performed technical consulting work for CBIS, Inc. and help manage their web site. I do not have any beneficial interest in either CBIS, Inc. or WR Grace Corp., in the form of stock, debt or options) ------------- >Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 22:31:35 -0500 >From: "David F. Lambertson" >Subject: Re: GBlist: Termites & Insulated Concrete Forms (ICF > >Kate, > R-Control, and others make an insulated concrete system where the >concrete is on the outside of the insulation. I know of three systems at >least---if you take 'Journal for Light Construction', they had an article >about these in the last 18 mos. Also check out a rock wool product called >Roxul-- termites shouldn't like it. Lots of ways to insulate plain ole >concrete below the surface. How about foam inside the walls, footings, and >across the ground to the interior, like a shallow slab foundation with the >foam continuing up the walls. Know there will be comments about insulating >inside foundation walls--------. Sacie Lambertson > I'll try to find the J of LC article if you can't find it. > > | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 12 16:53:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA08954 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:53:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA26924; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:26:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:21:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA26576 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:21:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA26564; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:21:20 -0400 (EDT) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id PKGUa03785; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:31:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:31:28 EDT To: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Tropical Termite Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4613 Hi Folks We are working on a permaculture design report for some folks in Paraguay. One of their problems is a serious termite infestation in their house. I've advised the obvious things like clearing up debris from around the place, etc. This is a nice house, a hacienda really, and it would be a shame to lose it. However I am a bit out of my area of expertise in dealing with termite problems (other than prevention, which starts with building practice of course.) First, we need some suggestions as to how to eliminate the termites. The materials I've found out about so far have been implicated in childhood cancers and they have two chldren. In any case, we prefer to avoid toxic approaches when possible and use the least toxic approach that will work when toxins must be applied. The problem is compounded by the fact that almost anything you would think of as normally available doesn't exist in Paraguay, so it may be necessary to import the solution. I am very interested in any solution. Second, any tips on how to go about repairing the damage. These folks are not builders. I'm not either, but I've owned enough housed and helped to build a few. I assume one starts at the top and works down so that pieces of house don't fall on your head, but I'm really at a loss here. I think t hey have a major renovation coming up. Third, and related to the second question, I am trying to put together a list of termite-resistant wood species that grow in the tropics and subtropics. They have a small grove of eucalyptus which I'd like to see cut anyway, as it would be much better to grow native species. (In less than three years, the harvest of the entire forest cover of Paraguay will be complete, so any haven for native forest trees is a blessing.) Any nominations for termite resistance are welcome. I suppose one can always take a block of wood and toss it next to a termite mound. If it is ok after three months in those conditions, it should be good. They need to replace damaged wood and to use termite-resistant species on any new construction. (And there will be new construction.) I'm even less enthusiastic about treating lumber than I am about poisoning termites because volatile poisons disperse eventually. But treated wood rots eventually anyway, and leaves the poison behind. I'm ready to hear that the solutions may be ones I don't like, but I am really. really interested in any suggestion that takes a moderate road, as far as toxins are concerned. Thanks for any help. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 12 17:32:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA09570 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:32:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA29344; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:06:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:02:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA28984 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:02:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28978 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:02:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from JOSEPHCH (207-172-245-73.s73.tnt2.sbo.erols.com [207.172.245.73]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA25791; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:13:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:13:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810122113.RAA25791@smtp1.erols.com> X-Sender: usbt@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: YankeePerm@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Joe Charlson Subject: Re: GBlist: Tropical Termite Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4614 Dan wrote: >(And there will be new construction.) > >I'm ready to hear that the solutions may be ones I don't like, but I am >really. really interested in any suggestion that takes a moderate road, as far >as toxins are concerned. Why not building with steel? No toxins, no termite food, and it doesn't rot. If you can't get it locally, its available for export by many companies. -Joe ****************************************** Joe Charlson United States Building Technology, Inc. http://www.erols.com/usbt 701-B Waverly Street,Framingham, MA, 01702 USA Tel: 508-424-0055, Fax: 508-424-0050 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 12 19:04:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA10733 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:04:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03987; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 18:38:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Oct 1998 18:34:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03681 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 18:34:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03677 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 18:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on6-05.netcom.ca [207.181.91.133]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14499; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 18:44:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810122244.SAA14499@tor-smtp2.netcom.ca> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 17:39:35 -0400 To: redelson@gis.net From: Norbert Senf Subject: GBlist: Re: removing creosote Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4615 At 10:43 AM 12/10/98 -0400, you wrote: (snip) How do i know if i >have "too much" creosote in my chimney? (i.e. a dangerous amount). If it's the shiny kind ("glazed creosote", very hard to remove, as opposed to the easier to remove fluffy kind), it is very flammable, and potentially dangerous. (snip)Can anyone recommend a >trustworthy chimney sweeper in the boston area? > It's no guarantee, but at the very least insist that your sweep be certified either by his state guild or by the National Guild or by C.S.I.A. (Chimney Safety Institute of America) Best........Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 12 19:39:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA11642 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05542; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:13:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:09:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05259 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:09:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05255 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 19:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (br-ppp12.hevanet.com [198.5.254.218]) by hevanet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA14133; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <36228EF2.E7437153@hevanet.com> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 16:21:26 -0700 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: SIPs and vapor barriers References: <1.5.4.32.19981012032001.00731e44@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4616 Hi, Sacie-- Normally, building codes require a vapor retarder of 1 perm or less. There are many paints available that have been tested to meet this specification. A vapor retarder of 1 perm or less should be adequate. The exception would be extreme conditions; that is, a very cold climate, or a lot of moisture inside your house (for example, you have a spa or hot tub in the house). Six-mil poly sheeting is rated at about 0.06 perm, as I recall. So it has a lower perm rating than paint, but possibly lower than necessary, depending on the conditions. If the manufacturer is concerned about moisture in the joints, I would ask if they may be thinking of air leakage rather than vapor pressure as the transport mechanism. If so, there are other (easier) options besides applying poly sheeting. Best, Mike David F. Lambertson wrote: > Talked to the manufacturer about the need for a vapor barrier and got the > reply that it would be a good idea to apply 6 mil poly everywhere there are > 2x splines connecting the panels and all across the roof, on the inside, of > course. This leads me to some observations about our experience putting > together a SIP building, thoughts that I will send out when I have a bit > more time. At this point however, I would definitely do it differently > next time, if at all. Sacie Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 12 22:26:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA14107 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:26:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA13186; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:00:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:56:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12900 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:56:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12896 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 21:56:20 -0400 (EDT) From: LitHowie@aol.com Received: from LitHowie@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1GHSa02317 for ; Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:05:36 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <9dcdb21b.3622b570@aol.com> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 22:05:36 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: ICF/ Termite Search Update Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 214 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4617 Thanks to all who helped me in my decision whether or not to use ICFs for my slab stem wall. This board is truly my construction advisor and savior. In general, it looks like standard foam blocks aren't sufficient for termite protection (even my "Blue-Maxx" manufacturer states that once termites have invaded the foam exterminators find them difficult to treat. Borate treated blocks are an option but seem to merely offer only some resistance to termites. I am now considering using Faswall wood-cement forms with polystyrene inserts. I'm hoping to get at least R 20 this way. Faswall claims to use recycled wood fiber (from broken pallets) and their K-X system and says " The ionization between the wood and the K-X minerals makes a permanent chemical bond that allows the fibers to become an integral part of the concrete, not just coated by it.". Faswall claims to be termite resistant as they cannot tunnel through the form. Fortunately for me there is a supplier within my state so shipping is reasonable. If anyone has any more feedback, feel free. I did find an interesting solution for termites for those of you who may have installed foam blocks or are considering their use. The Sustainable Building Sourcebook web page had a method of using fine-grained sand in trenches against the foam as termites can not tunnel through it. Here's the connection if any one is interested; Sourcebook: Non Toxic Termite Control With respect, Kate Howard ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 13 06:36:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA18937 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 06:36:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA25640; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 06:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Oct 1998 06:05:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA25346 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 06:05:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA25342 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 06:05:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1ZNWa02343 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 06:16:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8ad28be2.36232866@aol.com> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 06:16:06 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Fwd: Cool Fact: Insects That Use 'Mothballs' Re: Termite discussion Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_908273766_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 214 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4618 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_908273766_boundary Content-ID: <0_908273766@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Termites being the order of the day, I hope those interested don't mind if I pass this bit along...seems relevant. --part0_908273766_boundary Content-ID: <0_908273766@inet_out.mail.LearningKingdom.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd02.mx.aol.com (rly-zd02.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.226]) by air-zd02.mail.aol.com (v50.18) with SMTP; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 02:38:02 2000 Received: from hobbes.learningkingdom.com (hobbes.learningkingdom.com [209.24.233.40]) by rly-zd02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id CAA02518 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 02:37:55 -0400 (EDT) Mailing-List: contact fact-help@tlk-lists.com Precedence: bulk Delivered-To: mailing list fact@tlk-lists.com Message-ID: <19981013063001.13832@hobbes.learningkingdom.com> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 06:30:01 UT From: The Learning Kingdom To: Cool Fact List Subject: Cool Fact: Insects That Use 'Mothballs' Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Learning Kingdom's Cool Fact of the Day for October 13, 1998 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- What kind of insect uses mothballs to protect its nest? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Naphthalene is the active ingredient in mothballs, which humans use to kill many kinds of insects. However, there is an insect, the Formosan subterranean termite, Coptotermes formosanus, which uses it to repel invaders in its own nest! The termites insulate their nests with "carton", which is a cement made of chewed up wood. This substance is imbued with naphthalene. Current research cannot yet explain how the naphthalene is produced or why it is not harmful the termites. Although traces of naphthalene occur in magnolia flowers and secretions of white tailed deer, no other insects are known to use it for defense. More about the naphthalene using termites: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_76000/76115.stm http://hammock.ifas.ufl.edu/txt/fairs/9901 Pictures of Coptotermes soldiers: http://www.utoronto.ca/forest/termite/coppage.htm Today's sponsor: Soleil Software What is long, purple, and can gulp down a 50 pound wallaby? Find this and many other fascinating animal facts in Soleil's Web World -- and you could win free software! Click on an animal and learn all about it in Spanish, French and English. Then test your knowledge in the Animal Puzzler. Soleil Software publishes "World Learning" software which introduces children to the world's languages, cultures and wildlife. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cool Fact of the Day list membership: 35,545 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe, visit http://www.tlk-lists.com/join/ To unsubscribe, visit http://www.tlk-lists.com/change/ To become a sponsor, visit http://www.tlk-lists.com/sponsor/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright (c) 1998, The Learning Kingdom, Inc. http://www.LearningKingdom.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --part0_908273766_boundary-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 13 08:27:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA19540 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 08:27:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA29467; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 08:01:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Oct 1998 07:57:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA29162 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 07:57:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA29158 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 07:57:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.66] (pm0a30.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.94]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA21255; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 08:08:48 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 08:08:48 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <9dcdb21b.3622b570@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: LitHowie@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: ICF/ Termite Search Update Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4619 At 10:05 PM -0400 10/12/98, LitHowie@aol.com wrote: >If anyone has any more feedback, feel free. I did find an interesting solution >for termites for those of you who may have installed foam blocks or are >considering their use. The Sustainable Building Sourcebook web page had a >method of using fine-grained sand in trenches against the foam as termites can >not tunnel through it. Here's the connection if any one is interested; > >Sourcebook: Non Toxic Termite Control > It's actually a fairly course-grained and very uniform-sized sand. The individual grains are too large for termites to push out of the way, and too small for them to get through the inter-grain spaces. It's been used quite successfully in Hawaii and some builders have used it in Texas and California. We wrote it up some years ago in EBN, but I'm not sure if the article is available on our Web site. -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 13 11:09:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA21690 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:09:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07758; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:43:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:39:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07366 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07362 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:39:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [209.54.79.96] (cz-cblk-79-96.cyberzone.net) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:34:41 -0400 Subject: Re: GBlist: ICF/ Termite Search Update Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 10:54:35 -0000 x-sender: cdodge@mail.cyberzone.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: cdodge To: , "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19981013143441957.AAA193@mail.cyberzone.net@cz-cblk-79-96.cyberzone.net> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4620 >I am now considering using Faswall wood-cement forms with polystyrene >inserts. You might also want to look into Durisol . Its the original wood-fibre cement ICF technology and uses a *rock-wool* insulating insert which is substantially more than resistant to insects. I believe they now ship from a plant in the Carolinas as well as the main facility in Ontario, Canada. Clarence Dodge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 13 11:47:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22214 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:47:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10406; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:20:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:17:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09875 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:17:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09869 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:17:02 -0400 (EDT) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id UTYPa02301; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:27:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:27:31 EDT To: usbt@erols.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Tropical Termite Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4621 In a message dated 10/12/98 5:13:56 PM, usbt@erols.com wrote: <> First of all, the main question is how to rescue a nice existing building. Second, these folks want to do something remotely sustainable. Besides the strip-mines for the steel and the strip mines for the coal to process it and the oil wells to power the shipping (add more strip mines for shipping equipment), Paraguay is a land-locked country with no ports and an airport about the size of my back yard. The steel would need to be shipped to a port in Brazil or Argentina where, if not stolen, it would need to be trucked over roads that you wouldn't make a goat use without paying it time and a half. Then there is the monetary cost. Assuming that they could/would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on building a new house and letting the termites have the nice one they have been living in, given the economic conditions in Paraguay, they might as well paint concentric red and white circles on their backs. They would be hated for making such a flagrant display financial wastefulness surrounded by utter poverty. Rich people have shoes--that sort of thing. \ The parameters of the question, as stated, are well considered. Thanks for the suggestion. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 13 11:53:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22272 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11628; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:27:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:23:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10848 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10831 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:23:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-13-124.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.130.124]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA20227; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:33:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:45:47 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDF69F.04F8F760.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Bion D. Howard'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Nix Termites / Insulated Concrete Forms Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:42:12 -0400 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4622 Interesting developments Mr Howard! All of the insulated block attempts I have seen were quite marginal with respect to R-value or difficult to build, but this latest attempt seems to be succesful (I mean the Hi-R block, not the Korfil or ICON ones, which require a 12" low-density block to achieve R9+). The fact that there is now a decent block with a minimum of thermal bridging is good news for a lot of people who wish to use masonry. A true solid R12 with mass is at least the equal of 2x6 wood framing with R19 batt in almost all climates. I will be looking up more info, since this has very important ramifications for light industrial buildings. Cost must become an issue for basements however, since 8" block supporting 6' or so of backfill (the normal scenario) require grouted cores and rebar. The reduction in the core space must require an upsizing to 10" block or so -- not true? In any event, I'd like to see in place costs. But while we are promoting termite-proof materials, you dont have to give up on ICF's. I have seen the results of Durisol's (www.durisol.com) mulit-year Forestry Service study that confirms their termite resistance -- and their R8 and R14 blocks often result in cheaper foundations than normal density, non-insulated concrete block foundations. I dont know about Rastra (www.rastra.com) specifically, but I am pretty sure that they would provide termite resistance as well as their good typical R16-20+ (not the 38 they advertise). The structural integrity will be at least as good as Durisol, meaning better than block. Neither of these ICF's use foam plastic insulation and both contain a relatively high recycled content. Both of these termite-proof ICFs dont officially need damproofing and a drainage layer but I would strongly recommend both in most situtations, as you have for block. And since disclosure is the order of the day, as I mentioned before I have consulted to Durisol on a number of issues (but not Rastra), and often do work for the masonr industry. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Straube Building Engineering Group Building Envelope Engineering University of Waterloo 165 Albert St Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3G1 Canada N2L 3T2 Phone: 519 888 4567 X2378 519 741 7920 Fax: 519 888 6197 519 885 5193 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ On Monday, October 12, 1998 12:35 PM, Bion D. Howard [SMTP:bdhoward@ix.netcom.com] wrote: > Consider Pre-insulated Block Foundations: > > Why take a chance with pests when you can get pre-insulated concrete block, > with legit R-10 to R-12 values? These R values are delivered without > marking up through added "mass factors" or through calculational voodoo one > frequently sees in typical published masonry energy performance values. > > These block have the thermal protection materials encased in the masonry. > This makes it difficult for critters to get into the materials to gallery. > Also they can't easily reach framing (food) above the foundation walls > since block walls should be capped or have their top-courses filled. This > practice prevents convective coupling of interior spaces with block cores, > and to reduce likelihood of radon gas entry. > > Aside from potential pest problems, I have run several 2-d heat transfer > simulations indicating several of the most widely promoted ICF systems > overstate their R-values considerably. (We are considering publication of > an independent paper to document these results, for a future building > science conference.) > > The only CM block system I know of that has been fully tested (ASTM C976 > calibrated hotbox tests) and analyzed - versus just doing ASHRAE > steady-state calculations - has been the CBIS "Korfil" HI-R block. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 13 12:57:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA23200 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:57:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16491; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:31:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:27:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15966 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:27:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15958 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:27:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA11268 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 11:38:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from rvl-md18-15.ix.netcom.com(205.184.107.15) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma011242; Tue Oct 13 11:37:32 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981013123537.0071c178@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 12:35:39 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Green Building Case Studies Center(?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4623 Green Building Case Studies Center ---------------------------------- I have failed to find, in the "Green Building" industry, a central repository of case studies information organized in a fashion where consultants, designers, consumers, governmental officials, etc. can find such information. Does anyone have any comments on: 1. (you're wrong) a case studies center on Green Building does exist; where? 2. what are the key attributes that should be standardized in gathering essential case studies information on green buildings / remodeling 3. would such a case studies center make a good web site, and would people be willing to pay a subscription fee to enter the detailed info area? (a free front end of general info would be provided) Thanks in advance for your comments and advice. | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 13 17:52:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA00625 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05555; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:25:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:20:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05188 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:20:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from softhome.net (qmailr@charleston.SoftHome.net [204.144.231.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05182 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:20:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 24741 invoked by uid 417); 13 Oct 1998 21:48:15 -0000 Received: from libdell96-18.uoregon.edu (HELO cataloging.uoregon.edu) (128.223.85.38) by smtp.softhome.net with SMTP; 13 Oct 1998 21:48:15 -0000 Message-ID: <016a01bdf6f0$ec20d300$2655df80@cataloging.uoregon.edu> From: "Jon Hoyt" To: "Greenbuilding" Subject: GBlist: recent experience with No VOC paints Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 14:30:27 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id RAA05184 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4624 Does anyone have any up to date experience with No VOC paints. There are a few references in the archives, but nothing recently. I'm looking for an interior paint (or paints) for walls, some of which are in humid locations, and for kitchen cabinets. I know most of the big paint companies have such paints, but I'm wondering if any are better then others, or if some are more suitable to certain applications then others. For the cabinets, has anyone ever applying a coat of waterbased polyurethane over the paint? This was suggested to me by a local store. For what it's worth, I am not chemically sensitive, just trying to avoid polluting the environment more then I have to. Thanks, Jon - - J o n H o y t Eugene, Oregon jon@efn.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 13 19:05:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA01710 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:05:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09224; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:38:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:34:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08879 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:34:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from oak (caroldag@oak.liii.com [198.207.193.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08875 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:34:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Carol D'Agostino" Received: by oak (8.8.6/8.8.5) id WAA28868; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:45:53 GMT Message-Id: <199810132245.WAA28868@oak> Subject: Re: GBlist: recent experience with No VOC paints To: jbhoyt@softhome.net (Jon Hoyt) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:45:49 -0400 (EDT) Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <016a01bdf6f0$ec20d300$2655df80@cataloging.uoregon.edu> from "Jon Hoyt" at Oct 13, 98 02:30:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4625 I used Benjamin Moore's Pristine No VOC paint for my kitche, bath and living room. It smelled a bit for a day or so but was virtually odorless after about three days. I did keep the area well ventilated for about a week. The way painters work here is they apply the second coat sometimes within hours of the first one. I don't think this was a good idea in my bathroom as the semigloss enamel was tackey in some areas for over six months. Another major brand which I can't think of just now, also has a No VOC line. Hope this helps, Carol caroldag@liii.com > Does anyone have any up to date experience with No VOC paints. There are a few references in the archives, but nothing recently. I'm looking for an interior paint (or paints) for walls, some of which are in humid locations, and for kitchen cabinets. > > I know most of the big paint companies have such paints, but I'm wondering if any are better then others, or if some are more suitable to certain applications then others. For the cabinets, has anyone ever applying a coat of waterbased polyurethane over the paint? This was suggested to me by a local store. > > For what it's worth, I am not chemically sensitive, just trying to avoid polluting the environment more then I have to. > > Thanks, > > Jon > > > - - > J o n H o y t > Eugene, Oregon > jon@efn.org > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 13 20:30:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA02632 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 20:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12840; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 20:00:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:56:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA12539 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12533 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:56:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from reg-53-0188.direct.ca ([216.66.142.88] helo=kadulski) by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 0zTETp-0002nu-00 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 17:07:53 -0700 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: SIPs and vapor barriers Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 15:32:55 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4626 I've noted considerable discusssion in the last few days about vapour barriers with SIPs. Depending on the skin material used (OSB, plywood, etc) I think most would qualify as a VAPOUR barrier on their own, so there should be no need for the extra poly, etc. Of course, I am assuming that the panels are finished with an interior finish material, such as drywall, As Mike O'brien pointed out, is the concern one of air leakage? In that case, the AIR barrier is effectively provided by the drywall, while the Vapour barrier function is provided by the SIP skin. The projects I've worked on with SIPs that is what we did - we relied on the SIP skin to provide the vapour barrier (i.e., no poly or other VB, and that was in compliance with code). The joints between the SIPs, and also between SIP and other portions of the structure, were sealed to maintain the air seal - and thus provide the air barrier function. SIP's have inherent benefits in that they are easier to air seal, and because they generally are a vapour barrier also. Remember that if you have a good AIR barrier, there is less need for a perfectly continuous VAPOUR barrier. ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 13 21:48:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA03358 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:48:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17665; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:21:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:17:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17350 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:17:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17346 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:17:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.46]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 9114000 ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:30:08 -0800 Message-ID: <3623FD34.23948176@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:24:05 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Cork Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4627 A general question on cork as sound insulation (dampening). Having to create some good specifications (good also means cost effective) for a sound barrier between two floors of an existing bldg. Simplest thought was to run a layer of cork underlayment (2.5 or 4ml) and float a cork floor over. Cork people made a comparision of 2.5ml cork being the equivalent of 3-4" of concrete. Anyone have thoughts on sound John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 13 22:19:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA03640 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19124; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:52:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:49:28 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18789 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:49:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18785 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:49:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id VAA0000008072; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:00:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981014020341.007154b8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 21:03:41 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: termites and below ground protection Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4628 The most recent Journal for Light Construction, received today, has an article on this subject. I haven't had time to look at it yet. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 13 22:31:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA03792 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:31:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA19996; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:04:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:01:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19534 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:01:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19524 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:01:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip04.ivnet.net [206.101.73.164]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06294; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 18:04:13 -0700 Message-ID: <36240740.B6455946@ivnet.net> Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 19:06:56 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Cork References: <3623FD34.23948176@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4629 Imust admit total ignorance for cork as a soundproofing mechanism. It seems it might vary in effectiveness depending on what kind of sound is being transmitted. Damoening th esounds of foot traffic might work diferently than dampening already airborn sounds. Especially if the sound is being generated from below, you might consider hanging sheetrock over those metal strips whose name I can't recall that prevent the sheetrock from touching the joists. It's certainly cheap, and helps to decouple the sheetrock from the joist system. Bruce John Salmen wrote: > > A general question on cork as sound insulation (dampening). Having to > create some good specifications (good also means cost effective) for a > sound barrier between two floors of an existing bldg. Simplest thought > was to run a layer of cork underlayment (2.5 or 4ml) and float a cork > floor over. Cork people made a comparision of 2.5ml cork being the > equivalent of 3-4" of concrete. Anyone have thoughts on sound > > John > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 13 23:37:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA05299 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 23:37:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA25018; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 23:10:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 13 Oct 1998 23:07:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA24702 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 23:07:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA24696 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 23:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-15-209.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.130.209]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA24884 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 23:18:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 13 Oct 1998 23:30:46 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDF701.80D96240.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Healthy Termite control Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 23:24:04 -0400 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4630 All this talk on termites has been quite useful. However, I need to recommend a healthy strategy to control termites in crawl spaces below wood framed houses in a certain highly-developed Asian country. I need the help and opinions of the wonderful people on this list. I have already incorporated a well-sealed metal flashing visible on the exterior, and all the good moisture control items. Has anyone out there some hard experience or technical references that support the idea of a few inches of sand that passess through a #16 sieve acting as a termite barrier? I have several other questions. 1) does one place a metal flashing on the inside of the crawl space to aid in detection during inspection? (this seems to make sense) 2) will a poly ground sheet stop the pesky critters (assume well sealed and ballasted with weak concrete) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Straube Building Engineering Group Building Envelope Engineering University of Waterloo 165 Albert St Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3G1 Canada N2L 3T2 Phone: 519 888 4567 X2378 519 741 7920 Fax: 519 888 6197 519 885 5193 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 14 06:35:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA08419 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 06:35:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA08033; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 06:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Oct 1998 06:04:46 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA07783 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 06:04:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA07777 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 06:04:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id ICGGa02328; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 06:15:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 06:15:19 EDT To: jbhoyt@softhome.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: recent experience with No VOC paints Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 214 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4631 I have used Glidden 2000 indoors with excellent results. For environmental consideration you may also want to try recycled content latex paints. A good one is Kelly Moore's E Coat available through Kelly Moore paint stores...mostly west of the Mississippi. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 14 12:56:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA13329 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:56:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27073; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:29:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:25:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26526 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:25:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26456 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:23:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.162.253.73] (d53.best1.net [205.162.253.73]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA06054 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:35:00 -0700 X-Sender: smcgrath@mail.best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:37:35 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: GBlist: Forests Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4632 As a follow up to EBN's article on forest certfication in the July/August issue, check this: http://www.enn.com/news/enn-stories/1998/10/101498/wfpfsc.asp ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com, with internet broadcast every Monday at 4pm PST ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 14 14:08:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA14613 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:08:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02605; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:41:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:36:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02191 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:36:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pca-ex01.mpca (pca-ex01.pca.state.mn.us [156.98.210.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02187 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 13:36:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by pca-ex01.pca.state.mn.us with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:51:21 -0500 Message-ID: <6CF0581EC9C1D111B48600805FBEB878016D6E61@pca-ex01.pca.state.mn.us> From: "Barnes-Driscoll, Erin" To: Greenbuilding , "'Jon Hoyt'" Subject: RE: GBlist: recent experience with No VOC paints Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:51:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4633 Jon: Here is information that I received from Linda Lindquist on our staff: Four paints are reccomended under Green Seal's Low-VOC rating. Reccommended VOC levels for interior latex paints are 50 g/l for flat (.42lbs/gal), 150 g/l for non-flat (1.25 lbs/gal). Con-Lux's Enviroplex Series Duron's Builders Masterpeice Benjamin Morre's Regal Wall Satin Benjamine Morre's Moorcraft Second Zero-VOC Paint Emerges http://www.greenseal.org The rating is based on comparison of ingredients listed on labels and MSDS with the list of chemicals restricted by Green Seals Standards. For more information check-out the web site From EBN Volume 4, No. 1 -- January/February 1995 Benjamin Moore & Co. is about to introduce nationally the Pristine(TM) line of interior paints, becoming the second major brand to sell a zero-VOC interior paint line. Glidden's Spred 2000 and Lifemaster 2000 lines, introduced in 1993, were the first such paints from a mainstream paint company (see EBN Vol. 3, No. 1). Benjamin Moore's Pristine line is currently available in the New York-New Jersey area, and will be rolled out nationally in April of this year, according to Corporate Communication Administrator Eileen McComb. For more information check out http://www.ebuild.com Linda Lindquist Market Development Specialist Minnesota Office of Environmental Assistance 520 Lafayette Road North, Second Floor St. Paul, MN 55155 651-215-0210, direct or 1-800-657-3843 Fax: 651-215-0246 Erin Barnes-Driscoll Minnesota Office of Environmental Assistance 520 Lafayette Road North St. Paul, MN 55155-4100 612/215-0211 800/657-3843 FAX - 612/215-0246 erin.driscoll@moea.state.mn.us > ---------- > From: Jon Hoyt[SMTP:jbhoyt@softhome.net] > Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 1998 4:30 PM > To: Greenbuilding > Subject: GBlist: recent experience with No VOC paints > > Does anyone have any up to date experience with No VOC paints. There are > a few references in the archives, but nothing recently. I'm looking for > an interior paint (or paints) for walls, some of which are in humid > locations, and for kitchen cabinets. > > I know most of the big paint companies have such paints, but I'm wondering > if any are better then others, or if some are more suitable to certain > applications then others. For the cabinets, has anyone ever applying a > coat of waterbased polyurethane over the paint? This was suggested to me > by a local store. > > For what it's worth, I am not chemically sensitive, just trying to avoid > polluting the environment more then I have to. > > Thanks, > > Jon > > > - - > J o n H o y t > Eugene, Oregon > jon@efn.org > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 14 20:37:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA22985 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:37:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23040; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:10:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:03:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA22654 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:03:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA22650 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:03:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.51]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 9528000 ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:32:09 -0800 Message-ID: <36253DB9.DD85757@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:11:37 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jon Hoyt CC: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: recent experience with No VOC paints References: <016a01bdf6f0$ec20d300$2655df80@cataloging.uoregon.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4634 I like your last sentence. Probably worth repeating is the comments by Hal about the dubious status of alternative formulations contained within no voc paints. I was also concerned with how these paints performed around moisture after seeing some studies on fungal growth between substrate and paint and between paint layers in areas of high moisture. So with similar concerns I ended up with 'milk paint' as one of two possible options (limewash paints were the other). Milk paint is a casein paint(milk protein) and it is commercially available (we simplified that by becoming a very small manufacturer) and is quite simple to prepare. The paint is highly water resistant and very tough (I've scrubbed it and it compares well to some of the older finishes in our house). The finish is typically flat but can be glossed by rubbing. Water resistance can be increased by topcoating with a tung or linseed oil - can also be topcoated with a urethane if desired but once the finish is on you have to wonder why bother. The greatest complexity in preparing the paint was preventing our dog from eating it. John Jon Hoyt wrote: > Does anyone have any up to date experience with No VOC paints. There are a few references in the archives, but nothing recently. I'm looking for an interior paint (or paints) for walls, some of which are in humid locations, and for kitchen cabinets. > > I know most of the big paint companies have such paints, but I'm wondering if any are better then others, or if some are more suitable to certain applications then others. For the cabinets, has anyone ever applying a coat of waterbased polyurethane ove > > r the paint? This was suggested to me by a local store. > > For what it's worth, I am not chemically sensitive, just trying to avoid polluting the environment more then I have to. > > Thanks, > > Jon > > - - > J o n H o y t > Eugene, Oregon > jon@efn.org > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 14 21:03:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA23383 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:03:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA24382; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:37:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:32:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA24047 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:31:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA24040 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:31:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from reg-53-0136.direct.ca ([216.66.142.36] helo=kadulski) by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 0zTbVg-0004AL-00 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:43:21 -0700 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Subject: GBlist: Healthy Termite control Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 14:35:15 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4635 Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 23:24:04 -0400 John Straube Asked if " anyone out there some hard experience or technical references that support the idea of a few inches of sand that passess through a #16 sieve acting as a termite barrier?" Timothy Myles at the University of Toronto did some work for CMHC in this area (research report title: Development of the Sand Barrier method of Excluding Termites). I did a story on this in the Sept 1996 (no. 64) issue of Solplan Review ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 14 21:41:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA24400 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:41:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25995; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:09:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA25518 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:09:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA25513 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:09:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip29.ivnet.net [206.101.73.189]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03233; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 17:05:52 -0700 Message-ID: <36254B31.50EC176B@ivnet.net> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 18:09:05 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: LitHowie@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: ICF/ Faswall References: <9dcdb21b.3622b570@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4636 Kate: If you're really trying to get R-20, be sure that you aren't getting a "thermal-mass adjusted R value." This is generally what most of the ICF companies are promoting, and it has only a vague relation to a true R-value in most real-life situations. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon > Kate Howard wrote: > I am now considering using Faswall wood-cement forms with polystyrene inserts. > I'm hoping to get at least R 20 this way._ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 14 23:02:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA25233 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:02:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01937; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 22:35:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Oct 1998 22:30:39 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01665 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 22:30:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01659 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 22:30:25 -0400 (EDT) From: eloggie@erols.com Received: from lcoco (207-172-149-112.s49.as5.anp.erols.com [207.172.149.112]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA05992 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 22:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <36256016.46B1@erols.com> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 22:38:14 -0400 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.02Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: exemplary examples sought Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4637 Greetings, I am writing an overview on green buildings for a non-profit organization. I hope one or more of you will answer my specific questions: 1) Do you know of any particular green buildings which have been designed (or retrofitted) to accomodate multiple uses over time? These buildings would have interior space designed to be easily reconfigured for different usage patterns as such need arises. I suppose modular, demountable designs would fit this category as well. 2) Which green buildings outside North America are considered to be the best of the best? Can any of you direct me to a Website (or send information to me) that addresses these two questions? Greg Freeman Business Ecology Network ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 15 00:16:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA26021 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:16:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA06151; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:49:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:44:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA05876 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:44:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05871 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:44:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from hevanet.com (br-ppp18.hevanet.com [198.5.254.142]) by hevanet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA20852; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3625723A.A6A53D73@hevanet.com> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:57:00 -0700 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Tung Oil References: <016a01bdf6f0$ec20d300$2655df80@cataloging.uoregon.edu> <36253DB9.DD85757@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4638 John Salmen wrote: > (snip) > Water resistance can be increased by topcoating with a tung or linseed oil - can also be topcoated with a urethane if desired but once the finish is on you have to wonder why bother. (snip) Hi, All-- I often see references to tung oil as a safe or non-toxic wood finish. However, there is evidence that tung oil is a health hazard. It appears to act as a promoter of the Epstein-Barr virus. That is, many people carry the virus with no apparent symptoms, but when the virus is activated it causes mononucleosis and chronic fatigue syndrome. Tung oil compounds also may act as promoters of cancer. Below are four abstracts of MEDLINE journal articles illustrating tung oil hazards. The last one is a bit dense, but proposes a model explaining how phorbol esters in tung oil could promote cancer. I’d really like to see some more exploration of these issues but in the meantime would urge caution in using tung oil. Best, Mike Cancer Lett 1983 Feb;18(1):87-95 Epstein-Barr virus activation by tung oil, extracts of Aleurites fordii and its diterpene ester 12-O-hexadecanoyl-16-hydroxyphorbol-13-acetate. Ito Y, Yanase S, Tokuda H, Kishishita M, Ohigashi H, Hirota M, Koshimizu K During the screening of plant oils for their Epstein-Barr virus (EBV)-activating potency, we found that tung oil possesses an activity comparable to croton oil. Tung oil from various sources and the extracts from its parental plant Aleurites fordii (Chinese tung oil tree), when used in combination with n-butyrate, were shown to efficiently activate EBV persisting in human lymphoblastoid Raji cells (non-producer). The major diterpene ester in the plant extract, 12-O-hexadecanoyl-16-hydroxyphorbol-13-acetate (HHPA), also exerted a similar activity. In producer P3HR-1 cells, both tung oil and HHPA increased the yield of infectious EBV by approximately five-fold. Since tung oil is used for the manufacture of oil paints, varnishes, waterproof substance, anticorrosives and other products, the implication of using such an agent with EBV-activating potency in our daily life is assessed and discussed. PMID: 6297709, UI: 83128979 --------- Chung Hua Chung Liu Tsa Chih 1987 Sep;9(5):345-7, 20 [Promoting effect of the Chinese medicinal herb, wikstroemia chamaedaphne and tung oil extracts on carcinoma of the uterine cervix induced by HSV-2 or methylcholanthrene (MCA) in mice]. [Article in Chinese] Sun Y, Chen MH, Zhang YX, Xiao H, Liu HY, Chen X, Zeng Y Institute of Virology, Hubei Medical College, Wuhan. The promoting effect of the Chinese medicinal herb, Wikstroemia chamaedaphne and Tung oil extracts (WC and HHPA) on carcinoma of uterine cervix induced by HSV-2 or MCA in mice was studied. The results showed that WC and HHPA extracts were not carcinogenic themselves. After carcinogen HSV-2 and MCA treatment, WC and HHPA were added separately. The inducing rates by HSV-2 increased from 7.4% to 21.1% and 26.3%, those by MCA increased from 56.5% to 82.8% and 84.4%. There was a significant difference between the combined groups and groups with HSV-2 or MCA only. The experimental results suggest that these two kinds of extracts play a promoting effect on carcinogenesis. The relation between the carcinogenesis of uterine cervix or nasopharynx and WC or HHPA extracts is discussed. PMID: 2838237, UI: 88254481 ---------- Cancer Lett 1984 May;23(1):53-9 Epstein-Barr virus activation in Raji cells with ether extracts of soil from different areas in China. Zeng Y, Miao XC, Jaio B, Li HY, Ni HY, Ito Y Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) inducers were found in soil samples collected from the ground under tung oil trees and other plant species of Euphorbiaceae family growing in southern provinces of China where incidence of an EBV-associated malignancy, nasopharyngeal carcinoma (NPC) is prevalent. In such NPC high risk areas, the positive rate of EBV inducers in soil samples was up to 59.5%. Since many tung oil trees are planted along the roads and rivers of the high risk area, the possible significance of EBV inducers in soil under the trees in the development of malignancy among inhabitants of the area is discussed. PMID: 6331635, UI: 84258975 ---------- Princess Takamatsu Symp 1983;14:59-74 Molecular mechanisms of tumor promotion and multistage carcinogenesis. Weinstein IB, Arcoleo J, Backer J, Jeffrey A, Hsiao WL, Gattoni-Celli S, Kirschmeier P, Okin E Carcinogenesis is a multistep process resulting from a complex interaction between multiple factors, both environmental and exogenous. In contract to initiating agents that act by damaging cellular DNA, the primary targets of the phorbol ester tumor promoters are membrane-associated receptors. We have proposed a stereochemical model to explain the interaction of these amphiphilic molecules, and of teleocidin and aplysiatoxin, with this receptor system. The model is consistent with evidence that a complex between protein kinase C and phospholipid is the actual receptor for these compounds. Recent data we have obtained with a compound present in tung oil, 12-O-hexadecanoyl-16-hydroxyphorbol-13-acetate (HHPA), and twelve of its congener's (provided by Y. Ito et al.) are also consistent with our stereochemical model. We have studied phorbol ester receptors in a wide variety of tissue culture cell types. Our data, together with other findings, provide evidence for considerable receptor heterogeneity and this may relate to the pleiotropic effects of these compounds. We have found a case of "masked" receptors in a rat liver cell line and shown that it is due to a cell-associated esterase. Normal human melanocyte cultures contain phorbol ester receptors and this is of particular interest since these cells actually require these or related compounds for optimal growth (in collaboration with M. Eisinger). The receptor studies provide clues to how tumor promoters can, via inductive mechanisms, produce alterations in the structure and function of cell membranes. It is not known, however, how in the multistep carcinogenic process promoters enhance the eventual outgrowth of permanently altered tumor cells. We have found that TPA and teleocidin produce a marked enhancement of transformation of C3H 10T1/2 cells induced by transfection with h-ras human bladder cancer oncogene. These and other results are discussed in terms of the role of alterations in cellular oncogenes and transcriptional enhancer sequences during multistage carcinogenesis. PMID: 6097583, UI: 85104685 ---------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 15 00:58:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA26382 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:58:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA07398; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:31:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:28:06 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA07132 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:27:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.bna.bellsouth.net (mail.bna.bellsouth.net [205.152.80.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07127 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:27:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from spencers (host-209-214-119-136.bna.bellsouth.net [209.214.119.136]) by mail.bna.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA28313; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:39:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <36257D26.557A@bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 23:42:14 -0500 From: spencers Reply-To: bardsong@bellsouth.net Organization: bardsong X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@hevanet.com CC: John Salmen , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Tung Oil Alternatives References: <016a01bdf6f0$ec20d300$2655df80@cataloging.uoregon.edu> <36253DB9.DD85757@cow-net.com> <3625723A.A6A53D73@hevanet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4639 So what if I wanna use a substitute? Are there Veg oils? Seed oils? I gotta say tung is sure cheeky on the necks we use on our stringed instruments. It keeps off alot of hand oils and dirts and ages the woods well. It does not dry fast on certain woods, takes weeks on some, which is a bummer once in a bit due to the multilaments we do. We got it down to producing a great instrument on all the recycling/enviro fronts. The tung is last to go. And we want to build our new shop and house the same way. So the tung oil on the floor is bugging. What to do.. Shawn http://spaceformusic.com/bardsong ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 15 01:19:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA26538 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 01:19:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08045; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:53:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:49:45 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA07805 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:49:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07801 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:49:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (1Cust186.tnt11.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.31.186]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA10341 for ; Wed, 14 Oct 1998 22:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3625818B.4E0F@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 22:00:59 -0700 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: recent experience with No VOC paints References: <016a01bdf6f0$ec20d300$2655df80@cataloging.uoregon.edu> <36253DB9.DD85757@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4640 John Salmen wrote: > So with similar concerns I ended up with 'milk paint' as one of two possible options (limewash paints were the other). Milk paint is a casein paint(milk protein) and it is commercially > available (we simplified that by becoming a very small manufacturer) and is quite simple to prepare.... > The greatest complexity in preparing the paint was preventing our dog from eating it. > A number of years ago there was a highly-publicized fiasco with casien paints. A member of the Berkeley City Council had her house re-done to reduce the ambient toxicity of materials, and the paint was casein. The stuff sprouted mildew everywhere, and not only did the spores infect the paint, but the framed cavities as well. After tearing out all the wall and floor coverings, I believe she still had a serious mildew problem. Several explanations for the condition were given, including one that said the batch of paint had sat on the shelf too long. There might have been something about purchasing powder vs mixed. I really don't know that part. I do not have a personal stand on using milk paint one way or another, but this anecdote clearly suggests you should take great care in understanding a product before trying it. seth melchert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 15 03:56:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA27594 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 03:56:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA12992; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 03:30:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Oct 1998 03:26:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA12732 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 03:26:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA12728 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 03:26:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.137]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 9663800 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:54:52 -0800 Message-ID: <3625A46A.A7A207C7@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:29:46 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dmelchert@earthlink.net CC: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: recent experience with No VOC paints References: <016a01bdf6f0$ec20d300$2655df80@cataloging.uoregon.edu> <36253DB9.DD85757@cow-net.com> <3625818B.4E0F@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4641 A surprising story, from what I've looked at I can't see anything in the material that would support that degree of growth if anything the opposite should hold true. I would like to hear from anyone else that has information on caseins in usage - most of my information is historical (quite a long history) and most of it definitely predates gypsum board and the kind of wall conditions we currently have. thanks John David Melchert wrote: > John Salmen wrote: > > > So with similar concerns I ended up with 'milk paint' as one of two > possible options (limewash paints were the other). Milk paint is a > casein paint(milk protein) and it is commercially > > available (we simplified that by becoming a very small manufacturer) and is quite simple to prepare.... > > The greatest complexity in preparing the paint was preventing our dog from eating it. > > > A number of years ago there was a highly-publicized fiasco with casien > paints. A member of the Berkeley City Council had her house re-done to > reduce the ambient toxicity of materials, and the paint was casein. The > stuff sprouted mildew everywhere, and not only did the spores infect the > paint, but the framed cavities as well. After tearing out all the wall > and floor coverings, I believe she still had a serious mildew problem. > Several explanations for the condition were given, including one that > said the batch of paint had sat on the shelf too long. There might have > been something about purchasing powder vs mixed. I really don't know > that part. > > I do not have a personal stand on using milk paint one way or another, > but this anecdote clearly suggests you should take great care in > understanding a product before trying it. > > seth melchert > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 15 04:12:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA27688 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 04:12:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA13617; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 03:46:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Oct 1998 03:42:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA13357 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 03:42:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA13352 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 03:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.143]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 9667200 ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 01:11:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3625A841.6751AC61@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 00:46:09 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: obrien@hevanet.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Tung Oil References: <016a01bdf6f0$ec20d300$2655df80@cataloging.uoregon.edu> <36253DB9.DD85757@cow-net.com> <3625723A.A6A53D73@hevanet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4642 Hi Michael I've shared the concerns and have been following some of the research that you mention. Research on the various glycol formulations that are the base for most current no voc or envir. friendly water based finishes is equally intimidating. I think the question becomes one of questioning our attitude towards finishes and notions of durability and what is represented by them. We currently have paint finishes marketed for baths and kitchens or exteriors that contain fungicides. We have wood window manufacturers dip treating their stock with fungicides as well. On the 'natural' side of the equation we have a large variety of materials and finishes that in themselves are naturally toxic. The basic defense for endurance in nature depends on an element of toxicity. The catch-22 is entirely of our own making in our weird search for defiinitions of quality and endurance. One of my stronger criteria for a material often has less to do with occupant safety than what is represented in the manufacture of a product. If a high degree of water resistance is required in a material application then tung oil -may- be a more appropriate choice than a urethane. I think the first consideration is still to question the application and to match the substrate to the application, failing that we are definitely going to be compromised in our decisions. thanks john Michael O'Brien wrote: > John Salmen wrote: > > > (snip) > > > Water resistance can be increased by topcoating with a tung or linseed oil - can also be topcoated with a urethane if desired but once the finish is on you have to wonder why bother. > > (snip) > > Hi, All-- > > I often see references to tung oil as a safe or non-toxic wood finish. However, there is evidence that tung oil is a health hazard. It appears to act as a promoter of the Epstein-Barr virus. That is, many people carry the virus with no apparent symptoms, but > when the virus is activated it causes mononucleosis and chronic fatigue syndrome. Tung oil compounds also may act as promoters of cancer. Below are four abstracts of MEDLINE journal articles illustrating tung oil hazards. The last one is a bit dense, but > proposes a model explaining how phorbol esters in tung oil could promote cancer. I’d really like to see some more exploration of these issues but in the meantime would urge caution in using tung oil. > > Best, Mike > > Cancer Lett 1983 Feb;18(1):87-95 > Epstein-Barr virus activation by tung oil, extracts of Aleurites fordii and its diterpene ester 12-O-hexadecanoyl-16-hydroxyphorbol-13-acetate. > > Ito Y, Yanase S, Tokuda H, Kishishita M, Ohigashi H, Hirota M, Koshimizu K > > During the screening of plant oils for their Epstein-Barr virus > (EBV)-activating potency, we found that tung oil possesses an activity > comparable to croton oil. Tung oil from various sources and the extracts from its parental plant Aleurites fordii (Chinese tung oil tree), when used in combination with n-butyrate, were shown to efficiently activate EBV persisting in human lymphoblastoid Raji > cells (non-producer). The major diterpene ester in the plant extract, 12-O-hexadecanoyl-16-hydroxyphorbol-13-acetate (HHPA), also exerted a similar activity. In producer P3HR-1 cells, both tung oil and HHPA increased the yield of infectious EBV by > approximately five-fold. Since tung oil is used for the manufacture of oil paints, varnishes, waterproof substance, anticorrosives and other products, the implication of using such an agent with EBV-activating potency in our daily life is assessed and > discussed. > > PMID: 6297709, UI: 83128979 > > --------- > > Chung Hua Chung Liu Tsa Chih 1987 Sep;9(5):345-7, 20 > [Promoting effect of the Chinese medicinal herb, wikstroemia chamaedaphne and tung oil extracts on carcinoma of the uterine cervix induced by HSV-2 or methylcholanthrene (MCA) in mice]. > [Article in Chinese] > > Sun Y, Chen MH, Zhang YX, Xiao H, Liu HY, Chen X, Zeng Y > > Institute of Virology, Hubei Medical College, Wuhan. > > The promoting effect of the Chinese medicinal herb, Wikstroemia chamaedaphne and Tung oil extracts (WC and HHPA) on carcinoma of uterine cervix induced by HSV-2 or MCA in mice was studied. The results showed that WC and HHPA extracts were not carcinogenic > themselves. After carcinogen HSV-2 and MCA treatment, WC and HHPA were added separately. The inducing rates by HSV-2 increased from 7.4% to 21.1% and 26.3%, those by MCA increased from 56.5% to 82.8% and 84.4%. There was a significant difference between the > combined groups and groups with HSV-2 or MCA only. The experimental results suggest that these two kinds of extracts play a promoting effect on carcinogenesis. The relation between the carcinogenesis of uterine cervix or nasopharynx and WC or HHPA extracts is > discussed. > > PMID: 2838237, UI: 88254481 > > ---------- > > Cancer Lett 1984 May;23(1):53-9 > Epstein-Barr virus activation in Raji cells with ether extracts of soil from different areas in China. > > Zeng Y, Miao XC, Jaio B, Li HY, Ni HY, Ito Y > > Epstein-Barr virus (EBV) inducers were found in soil samples collected from the ground under tung oil trees and other plant species of Euphorbiaceae family growing in southern provinces of China where incidence of an EBV-associated malignancy, nasopharyngeal > carcinoma (NPC) is prevalent. In such NPC high risk areas, the positive rate of EBV inducers in soil samples was up to 59.5%. Since many tung oil trees are planted along the roads and rivers of the high risk area, the possible significance of EBV inducers in > soil under the trees in the > development of malignancy among inhabitants of the area is discussed. > > PMID: 6331635, UI: 84258975 > > ---------- > > Princess Takamatsu Symp 1983;14:59-74 > Molecular mechanisms of tumor promotion and multistage carcinogenesis. > > Weinstein IB, Arcoleo J, Backer J, Jeffrey A, Hsiao WL, Gattoni-Celli S, > Kirschmeier P, Okin E > > Carcinogenesis is a multistep process resulting from a complex interaction between multiple factors, both environmental and exogenous. In contract to initiating agents that act by damaging cellular DNA, the primary targets of the phorbol ester tumor promoters > are membrane-associated receptors. We have proposed a stereochemical model to explain the interaction of these amphiphilic molecules, and of teleocidin and aplysiatoxin, with this receptor system. The model is consistent with evidence that a complex between > protein kinase C and phospholipid is the actual receptor for these compounds. Recent data we have obtained with a compound present in tung oil, 12-O-hexadecanoyl-16-hydroxyphorbol-13-acetate (HHPA), and twelve of its congener's (provided by Y. Ito et al.) are > also consistent with our stereochemical model. We have studied phorbol ester receptors in a wide variety of tissue culture cell types. Our data, together with other findings, provide evidence for considerable receptor heterogeneity and this may relate to the > pleiotropic effects of these compounds. We have found a case of "masked" receptors in a rat liver cell line and shown that it is due to a cell-associated esterase. Normal human melanocyte cultures contain phorbol ester receptors and this is of particular > interest since these cells actually require these or related compounds for optimal growth (in collaboration with M. Eisinger). The receptor studies provide clues to how tumor promoters can, via inductive mechanisms, produce alterations in the structure and > function of cell membranes. It is not known, however, how in the multistep carcinogenic process promoters enhance the eventual outgrowth of permanently altered tumor cells. We > have found that TPA and teleocidin produce a marked enhancement of > transformation of C3H 10T1/2 cells induced by transfection with h-ras human bladder cancer oncogene. These and other results are discussed in terms of the role of alterations in cellular oncogenes and transcriptional enhancer sequences during multistage > carcinogenesis. > > PMID: 6097583, UI: 85104685 > > ---------- > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 15 09:48:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA29931 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:48:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22665; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:21:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:17:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22069 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:17:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22063 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:17:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-05-220.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.128.220]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA24222; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:29:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:41:24 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDF81F.F9458780.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Bruce'" , "LitHowie@aol.com" Cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: ICF/ Faswall Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:29:06 -0400 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4643 Here, here Bruce! You must be a better builder indeed. I have just finished a short letter/report for a manufacturer. This large company makes a very thermally massive exterinally insulated wall sysem and have always reported/marketed the steady-state R-value even though they knew how benefical mass was. They tried to sell the benefit as an extra. Now they have to change their marketing to be less realistic because of the pressure from companies selling R20 walls that are actually R12. I know of another company in the ICF business doing exactly the same in response to inflated R-values. This bothers my unbusinesslike engineering mind, or maybe its my ethics ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Straube Building Engineering Group Building Envelope Engineering University of Waterloo 165 Albert St Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3G1 Canada N2L 3T2 Phone: 519 888 4567 X2378 519 741 7920 Fax: 519 888 6197 519 885 5193 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ On Wednesday, October 14, 1998 9:09 PM, Bruce [SMTP:builder@ivnet.net] wrote: > Kate: > If you're really trying to get R-20, be sure that you aren't getting a > "thermal-mass adjusted R value." This is generally what most of the ICF > companies are promoting, and it has only a vague relation to a true > R-value in most real-life situations. > Bruce Donelson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 15 17:38:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA02344 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:38:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05221; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:16:32 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA04815 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:16:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.gis.net (ns2.gis.net [208.218.130.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04811 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:16:17 -0400 (EDT) From: redelson@gis.net Received: from [216.41.30.87] ([216.41.28.119]) by ns2.gis.net (8.8.8/8.8.8+djf) with ESMTP id NAA25025; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:32:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:32:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: redelson@208.218.130.20 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Indoor Air Quality Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4644 Could the person who occassionally posts a notice on her/his group on INDOOR AIR QUALITY on this listserve please drop me a line?? OR, if anyone knows any organization that addresses issues of indoor air quality, please let me know. thanks, rebecca redelson@gis.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 15 17:38:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA02341 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15833; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:31:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:27:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA15407 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:27:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA15402 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:27:37 -0400 (EDT) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1ZHEa10656; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:34:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4a048f02.36265c6c@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:34:52 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: terrain@cow-net.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: recent experience with No VOC paints Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4645 John, Seth, and others who are interested in this dialogue on casein (milk product) paints: Since I too live in Berkeley, CA, I am familiar with the oft-twisted, now convoluted, always misunderstood story of the past Berkeley City Council member's horror story with casein paint. My take on it is: This council member was somewhat chemically sensitive and/or allergic. She was concerned about environmental issues. She was convinced that natural materials are healthier than synthetic ones, so she purchased a premixed casein paint (I believe it was manufactured by AURO from Germany) with the shelf-life expiration date printed on the cans. The date was long expired, but unnoticed upon purchase. When the cans were opened the stench (rotten milk!) was awful, but she thought, "It is natural and maybe this stuff always smells this way. Probably it will get better after it dries." So she had her walls painted. Would you buy a quart of milk with the previous month's date printed on the carton? The odor of rotten milk was so bad it permeated all her clothes, upholstery and other absorbent belongings. As is so often the case, her rubber band broke and she overreacted. She threw away most of her belongings, she removed and replaced all the sheetrock from her newly renovated place and painted the walls with the most toxic mainstream paints. Naturally all this was accompanied by a fever-pitched media frenzy to the tune of "Environmental Paint Proves to be Disaster" and a runaway "Poor Me" psychological profile of "Victim." Broke, without her wardrobe and furniture, as I understand it, she moved out of this place in utter frustration because she had toxic reactions to the final paint job. Even now, years later, the Green Building List is feeling the reverberations of this "misconstruction," if you will pardon the term. There is a commonly available powdered form of casein paint suitable for use as wall paint or for painting objects in indoor settings. It is an "environmentally safe," solvent-free, paint made from milk protein, lime, clay and earth pigments by "The Old Fashioned Milk Paint Co.," in Groton, MA, 508-228-6336. With powdered forms, you mix with water when you are ready to paint--no shelf-life spoilage problem! Casein painting has been around for a long time. The curd of milk with nearly any alkali like borax, TSP, or sodium carbonate will yield an adhesive. If the alkali is lime, the adhesive is highly water resistant. Casein yields one of the strongest glues known and has been used for centuries by joiners and cabinet makers. Since paints are essentially a pigment and a binder (glue) suspended in some liquid to transport it, casein has been used in a variety of paint products throughout history--both as a paint product and in the preparation of grounds for painting. Craftspeople from ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome, and China are thought to have used casein paints and glues. Without doubt it was used as a joining adhesive in the cabinet work of the Middle Ages. Manuscripts of the time explain preparing an adhesive out of lime and cheese. Ancient Hebrew texts mention the use of curd (casein) in housepainting and decoration. Michelangelo is said to have used a combination of sour milk, oil, and pigments (a variation on waterborne casein products known technically as casein emulsion painting) to produce highlight effects on walls. Casein tempera is a painting medium made from skim milk and lime and has been used since early times. The history of casein is long; in the form of curd or pot cheese, a crude unpurified form of adhesive or cold water paint. In the 11th or 12th Century, Theophilus described in detail methods for its preparation and use. Because curd or homemade casein contains butterfat and milk sugar, and because its concentration is not easily controlled, its use as a substitute for modern commercial casein is unwise. Many formulas are available for the mixing of casein paints and adhesives in books such as: "Painting Materials," by R. J. Gettens and G. L. Stout, Dover Publications, NY, 1942 and 1966; "The Painter's Companion," by Reed Kay, Webb Books, Cambridge, MA, 1963; "The Artist's Handbook of Materials & Techniques," by Ralph Mayer, 5th Edition revised and updated by Steven Sheehan, Viking Press, NY, 1991; "Formulas, Methods, Tips and Data," by K. M. Swezey, Popular Science Publishing Co., Harper & Row, NY, 1969. Had that poor Berkeley council member broadened her search to the previous centuries of casein experience or looked around her at the current technology and indoor air quality research being done at Lawrence National Berkeley Laboratories and elsewhere, her plight might have been considerably more successful. Even after the damage was done, rather than panicking, thoughtful methods of odor removal and microbiological remediation might have been employed. You know what? I still don't think I would use casein paint in a bathroom or sauna. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone: 510-841-1039 fax: 510-841-1008 iaqkibbey@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----- In a message dated 10/15/98 12:41:16 AM, terrain@cow-net.com writes: >A surprising story, from what I've looked at I can't see anything in the >material that would support that >degree of growth if anything the opposite should hold true. I would like >to hear from anyone else that has >information on caseins in usage - most of my information is historical >(quite a long history) and most of it >definitely predates gypsum board and the kind of wall conditions we currently >have. >thanks >John > >David Melchert wrote: > >> John Salmen wrote: >> > >> So with similar concerns I ended up with 'milk paint' as one of two >> possible options (limewash paints were the other). Milk paint is a >> casein paint (milk protein) and it is commercially >> > available (we simplified that by becoming a very small manufacturer) >and is quite simple to prepare.... >> > The greatest complexity in preparing the paint was preventing our dog >from eating it. >> > >> A number of years ago there was a highly publicized fiasco with casein >> paints. A member of the Berkeley City Council had her house redone to >> reduce the ambient toxicity of materials, and the paint was casein. The >> stuff sprouted mildew everywhere, and not only did the spores infect >the >> paint, but the framed cavities as well. After tearing out all the wall >> and floor coverings, I believe she still had a serious mildew problem. >> Several explanations for the condition were given, including one that >> said the batch of paint had sat on the shelf too long. There might have >> been something about purchasing powder vs. mixed. I really don't know >> that part. >> >> I do not have a personal stand on using milk paint one way or another, >> but this anecdote clearly suggests you should take great care in >> understanding a product before trying it. >> >> seth melchert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 15 17:38:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA02338 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:38:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15570; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:29:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:24:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA15145 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:24:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA15139 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:24:39 -0400 (EDT) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 7KYBa17824; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:34:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <496a8e99.36265c70@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 16:34:56 EDT To: jon@efn.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Zero VOC paint Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4646 Dear Jon: I have not done any special research to follow through with information on formulas. See comments (off the top of my head) interspersed below, preceded by "++++++++++" In a message dated 10/14/98 11:33:41 AM, jon@efn.org writes: >Hello David, > >Over a year ago you made a post to the greenbuilding listserv regarding >your >experience with Glidden Spred 2000 paint in particular and zero VOC paints >in general. In that post you mentioned that the downsides to that paint >were it's scrubbability and it's blocking characteristics. > >I have been looking at no VOC paints recently and I've found that the Spred >2000 line has been discontinued and in it's place there is the LifeMaster >2000 line. ++++++++++++++++++++A while back, the Glidden Company (along with several other companies) was purchased by ICI. Now the same formula 0% VOC, 0% petroleum solvent paint is being manufactured under a number of different brand names, often the in-house store names for franchisees. "LifeMaster 2000" is one of those names. > >Do you know if the LifeMaster has been improved in these areas? +++++++++++++++Though there may have been formula changes from what we knew as "Glidden Spred 2000," I don't know of them. About a year ago, I was told by the ICI Manufacturer's Rep that the formula is still the same. >Are there other, different downsides to this formulation? ++++++++++++++++I was told by one homeowner user that they thought the stuff was much too thin to cover well and it dripped and ran. (I have a hard time believing this, because my own experience was that it was thick and creamy, covered all kinds of color, texture, and absorbency changes easily, and handled well.) The guy in question may have had some other agenda about how environmentally conscious products just aren't as good as the standard ones! >Are there other brands >which you would recommend as being equal or better in terms of overall >use and performance? +++++++++++++++++Other 0% VOC, 0% petroleum solvent paints I recommend I have only personally used the ones marked with an asterisk (*): - Benjamin Moore "Pristine" (800-826-2623); - *Spectra-Tone Paint Co. "Gold Label Premium Spectra-Tone," (distributed by Pursel Quality Paints) 800-272-4687; - Frazee Paint Co. "Envirokote" line of very low VOC, very low odor paints, primers and interior finishes (same level of less than 1% VOC as the so-called "0% VOC" paints, but this company says if it is not truly "0%," they will more accurately call it "very low."); - *AFM (American Formulating and Manufacturing), "SafeCoat" paints and finishes, made with conscious attempt to remove all unhealthy offgassing components, including ethylene glycol, biocides, etc. Low VOC, low toxic, low odor paints which also meet stringent standards for indoor air quality criteria (I have not had personal experience with any except those marked with an asterisk (*): - All Safe Paint, low toxic, low odor paint. (Albuquerque, NM) - Best Paint Company "Best Paints" low VOC, H2O based, eliminates ammonia, ethylene glycol, formaldehyde, and solvents up to 90% of volatile pollutants. (Seattle, WA) - Chem-Safe Products, "Enviro-Safe" paints, H2O based, low biocide, no fungicide, no ethylene glycol, low VOC. (San Antonio, TX) - Kurfees Coatings, Inc., "Kurfees Fresh Air Formula Paint" low VOC, low solvent, low odor, high hiding, scrubbable, acrylic latex interior and interior/exterior paints. Mostly sold in the Midwest. (Louisville, KY) - Miller Paint Co., Inc. solvent-free paints with no or low biocides and no fungicides. (Portland, OR) - Murco Wall Products, Inc., low toxic latex paints. (Ft. Worth, TX) - *Pace Chem Industries, Inc., "Right-On Crystal Aire" and "Crystal Shield" low toxic sealers and paints, claiming to be "hermetical sealers" for sealing in noxious odors and offgassing of materials and previous coatings. (Newbury Park, CA) - Sherwin Williams "Health Spec," low VOC, low odor waterborne interior paints - *William Zinsser & Co., Inc., "B-I-N" white pigmented waterborne primer/sealer/stain-killer. Low odor, low toxic, interior/exterior products widely tolerated by chemically sensitive individuals. (Somerset, NJ) WATCH OUT FOR: - Kelly-Moore Paint Co., Inc., "Enviro-Cote," 0% VOC, 0% solvent water-based acrylic paint. One client of mine is settling out of court with them for the loss of $65,000 worth of woodwork, trim and cabinetry, because their product performs so poorly. Smells great, just doesn't stay on the surface after application. Wears off, flakes and peels. > >You seemed to have a lot of experience in this area so any input you can >give me will be greatly appreciated. > >Thanks, > >Jon > Thanks for asking, David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone: 510-841-1039 fax: 510-841-1008 iaqkibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 15 17:38:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA02347 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 17:38:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29705; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:48:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:45:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29370 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:44:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29362 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:44:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.198.23.16] (uA1-a15.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.16]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA25140 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:55:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:55:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: uA1-a15.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.16] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:55:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: NESEA Workshop Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4647 Just a note to let GBlisters know that I'm teaching a one day workshop on solving thermal comfort, moisture and indoor air quality problems at NESEA (Greenfield, MA), Nov. 17, 1998. Should be fun. NESEA also has a workshop on the Mass Energy Code on Oct.22 and a tour of Solar homes on Oct. 17. For details contact NESEA at 1-877-44-SOLAR. - Terry Terry M. Brennan Camroden Associates 7240 East Carter Road Westmoreland, New York 13490 315-336-7955 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 15 23:31:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07775 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:31:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03627; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:19:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:15:22 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA03358 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:15:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA03354 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:15:09 -0400 (EDT) From: JNH2@aol.com Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id RHSZa18748; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:18:09 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <3b76c975.3626baf1@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:18:09 EDT To: kadulski@direct.ca Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: SIPs and vapor barriers Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4648 Richard, I certainly have no interest in being argumentative, but I sure don't understand your capitilized assertion that OSB or gyp. brd. or any other such material constitutes a vapor barrier. Considering that, for some reason that's simply beyond me, Tyvek fabric does not constitute a vapor barrier (based on the manufacturer's own claims) yet does make for a good infiltration barrier, it seems the vapor pressure "problem" is a bit more complex than many sales reps. will lead us to believe. While I do make a living drawing and specifying various products, I am not an architect that is willing to take what I'm told at face value. That simply appears foolhardy to me, in light of the reality that our decisions and our work will effect people for years to come. I have taken components apart with my own hands that supposedly had "enough" in the way of a vapor barrier. While I am not a molecular chemist, I can certainly recognize long term moisture damage when I see it. For members of the design community to relate ideas and issues to the public in this sort of forum absolutely demands that we come down from any ivory towers of "the broad view" and deal with the nuts and bolts problems. Like myself, I am certain you would not risk the liability exposure of recommending a solution to a problem in the built environment without making darn sure of all of the extengencies of that situation. As far as I can tell, that insight, the ability to see a more wholistic picture, is precisely what Architecture has to offer the public. In many areas our very livelihoods are only supported by ordinance or law, the majority of the public sees us as completely superfluous and refuses to even consider the use of our services whenever they can legally avoid it. Your response to the line of discussion is not wrong, in my mind. But it is terribly incomplete and that makes it more than wrong, it makes it dangerous and degrading to Architecture as a whole. Excuse my biting tone, I wear a tie and still believe that Architecture has a place in our society, and I have callouses from doing the very work I design. Jim Holdcraft Saint Louis ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 15 23:38:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07841 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:38:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04032; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:26:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:23:33 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA03773 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA03768 for ; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:23:21 -0400 (EDT) From: JNH2@aol.com Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id CCSRa08737; Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:34:24 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <3def7620.3626bec0@aol.com> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:34:24 EDT To: terrain@cow-net.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Cork Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4649 Sounds like the claims are a bit out of touch with how big soundwaves are. While I have seen some applications where simply disconnecting one surface from another does a great deal of good to reduce transmitted sound, 2.5mil cork seems a bit too thin to arrest much structure carried sound. Any interstitial layer will likely render some noticable performance for air- borne sound, and the cork is likely a good candidate for that application, especially in the event that you don't have very much in the way of increased floor height to manage another type of solution. Has anyone has experience with a multi-layered barrier. I have read of using a material such as cork with something dense (masonite, 1/4" concrete board, medium desity overly, etc.) over it, then a flexible finsh on the top. The aim seems to be to provide a disconnection with the structure below and also some density of material to reflect sound waves as well. Let us know how it comes 'round. Jim Holdcraft Saint Louis ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 16 01:58:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA09148 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 01:58:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA08796; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 01:43:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Oct 1998 01:39:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA08391 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 01:39:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA08387 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 01:39:30 -0400 (EDT) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 7ZNIa22759; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 01:49:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6ce775e1.3626de7b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 01:49:47 EDT To: jon@efn.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Zero VOC paint Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4650 Oops! I posted an email a few hours ago in which I listed as a recommended low odor, low VOC waterborne primer: - *William Zinsser & Co., Inc., "B-I-N" white pigmented waterborne primer/sealer/stain-killer. Low odor, low toxic, interior/exterior products widely tolerated by chemically sensitive individuals. (Somerset, NJ) Sorry, "B-I-N" is Zinsser's white pigmented shellac-based primer with alcohol cleanup. The waterborne version I meant to cite is: "Bulls Eye 1-2-3" white pigmented low odor, water-based primer sealer stain-killer. I seem to always get the names mixed up. I used to sell the stuff when I was head of the paint department at a hardware store in Vermont, working my way through Junior High School in 1954. It is still around and it is still a good product! David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone: 510-841-1039 fax: 510-841-1008 iaqkibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 16 09:50:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12636 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:50:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21340; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:38:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:33:07 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21032 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21027 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust152.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.152]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id IAA03038 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 08:44:27 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <36274E90.FC1@gte.net> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 09:48:00 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: [Fwd: Fly Ash Recycling Problems] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------74DF133E13F6" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4651 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------74DF133E13F6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Greenbuilders, This article from the Oct 5 WSJ mentions Babb Cellular Concrete as a company that has opened markets for the sulfur and fly ash formerly discarded as waste from power plants. Way to go Jillana. Cindy --------------74DF133E13F6 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mlist.ucsd.edu ([132.239.1.48]) by mta2.mailsrvcs.net (InterMail v03.02.04 118 119) with ESMTP id <19981005204337.QXTN6938@mlist.ucsd.edu> for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:43:37 -0500 Received: from mailbox1.ucsd.edu (mailbox1.ucsd.edu [132.239.1.53]) by mlist.ucsd.edu (8.8.8AS/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA23748; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com (fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com [199.184.182.42]) by mailbox1.ucsd.edu (8.8.8AS/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA18575 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from compaq by fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com (8.6.9/MSN-1.4) id PAA12957; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:20:24 -0500 From: "RecycleWorlds" To: "GreenYes" Subject: Fly Ash Recycling Problems Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:17:00 -0500 Message-ID: <01bdf09d$1c0281e0$0eb7b8c7@compaq> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Once a Pollutant, 'Scrubber Sludge' Finds a Market. The Wall Street Journal, October 5, 1998, ppB1,B2. Power companies that have been using "scrubbers" to remove the sulfur and fly ash coming out of their stacks are now selling this waste to farmers and construction companies instead of dumping it into landfills. Two companies, Caraustar Industries and Babb Cellular Concrete use the sulfur and fly ash to make construction products such as wallboard and concrete. Farmers are also buying the residue-called "scrubber sludge"- because it helps increase crop yields. "Wherever you put that stuff," said Ken Curtis, owner of a fertilizer business in Illinois, "it just greens up." In the past, power companies usually buried the sludge in landfills, incurring liabilities. Now the Tennessee Valley Authority makes from $6 to $10 million annually on sales of the byproduct. "We're turning a deficit into a positive number," said Cheri Miller, a TVA marketing specialist. Ralph Woodward, a farmer from Carlisle, Indiana has a farm by a power plant. Woodward thought that the scrubbing process mandated by the Clean Air Act would result in a sulfurous sludge that would probably improve the soil. He asked the officials at the plant if he could have some because they were just dumping it. "They just ignored me," said Woodward. He then donated $50,000 to Purdue University to test his theory. He persuaded soil scientist Darrell Norton to test his theory. "If this old dumb farmer makes a claim that [sludge] works, they don't pay much attention to you," Woodward says. "But if Purdue does it, that it authentic." Dr. Norton found that the sludge could increase crop yields and reduce water-pollution runoff by increasing the soil's capacity to hold rainwater. The use of the sludge on some farmland has been approved by federal and some state environmental agencies. It has been slow to sell however. "It's an education process. Farmers have never heard of it." The construction industry also was looking at ways to use the sludge containing calcium sulfate. The mineral, also known as gypsum, is the raw material used to make wallboard. Some manufacturers were mining the mineral from distant locations at great expense. A power plant near Jacksonville, Florida began selling sludge to farmers in the late 1980s. Soon after, a wallboard company bought their entire output. "If we had more, they'd probably take that too," says Jay Worley, an official at the plant. Indianapolis Power and Light Company sells about 300 tons a year from one plant. Some of their other plants are being upgraded to produce higher quality sludge. "When you are getting paid for byproduct, you can afford to spend more money on it," said Jim Meiers, the utility's chief scientist. ____________________________________ Peter Anderson RecycleWorlds Consulting 4513 Vernon Blvd. Ste. 15 Madison, WI 53705-4964 Phone:(608) 231-1100/Fax: (608) 233-0011 E-mail:recycle@msn.fullfeed.com --------------74DF133E13F6-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 16 11:53:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14863 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:53:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27997; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:41:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:37:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27599 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:37:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27594 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:37:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-16-31.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.131.31]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA05518; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:01:12 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDF8FC.AAF6F400.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Athena &Bill Steen'" Cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Healthy Termite control Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:57:36 -0400 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4652 Thanks for the unique practical experience Bill you provided below. On Thursday, October 15, 1998 12:52 PM, Athena &Bill Steen [SMTP:absteen@dakotacom.net] wrote: > When we added quantities of Type S lime and salt to the sand barrier, the > termites did not continue down through the barrier. They came into contact > with the barrier and then attempted to tunnel horizontally on top of it > for about 2 inches before quitting. They made several attempts at doing > so, stopping at about 2 inches each time in their horizontal travels. > > My own personal conclusions were that in the context where we were working, > I would have some confidence in the sand barriers with the inclusion of > lime and/or salt. As for working with sand by itself, I would continue > experimenting with possibly different types of sand, different sizing, etc. > before having confidence in using sand by itself. I have some concerns however. The idea of tightly grade sand acting as a termite barrier is based, I believe, on choosing the sand so that it is large enough that workers cant move, yet small enough that if a tunnel is dug it will collapse. Adding salt makes sense (although it will leach away over time in a wet climate) but adding lime may act to support the sand -- e.g. the latter function, collapsing tunnels, will no longer work. Of course, lime will make the sand an uninviting place for termites, so this is good, but .... What do you think? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ John Straube Building Engineering Group Building Envelope Engineering University of Waterloo 165 Albert St Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3G1 Canada N2L 3T2 Phone: 519 888 4567 X2378 519 741 7920 Fax: 519 888 6197 519 885 5193 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 16 13:02:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16185 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 13:02:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02188; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:50:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:46:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01856 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:46:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01852 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:46:22 -0400 (EDT) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1BQLa02316; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:55:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6496cf1c.36277a7c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 12:55:24 EDT To: Pbsustain@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: recent experience with No VOC paints Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4653 Phil, Thanks for your note (below). To the best of my knowledge, the Old Fashioned Milk Paint Co. is a small family run business that does not advertise. Cost of their casein paints is roughly double that of premium latex paints. Their paint is flat and somewhat streaky. Their powdered paints are available in 16 colors that can be user- combined to create unlimited custom colors. Often it is used for restoration of old houses and antiques, consistent with original historical colors and surfaces. It is also used frequently by people with acute chemical sensitivities or in hospital and school settings to avoid the toxic effects of typical synthetic resin products. Special art surfaces and hand-applied patterns might be appropriate applications for casein. I have heard of people with acute sensitivities to lactose products getting reactions to the freshly applied casein. If it is to be subjected to splashing, water-staining, or frequent cleaning, it is recommended that it be topcoated with a water-based clear sealer. This, to my mind, sort of defeats the whole purpose of using a pure product containing only natural elements. Consequently I lean toward using 0% or low VOC waterborne mainstream paint products for heavily used commercial applications like restaurants, schools, offices and hospitals--as well as in wet locations in residences. Though I sympathize with the resource conservation aspects of recycled paint, I would never use recycled paint in health-conscious applications. It is likely to be the least well quality controlled, since the sources are random. I prefer to see collection centers donate partial cans of used paint to churches, homeless shelters, or other distribution centers for reuse rather than to see the gamut of donated paints being poured into new batches to be sold as "environmental products." Recycling does not magically endow basically toxic products with safe ecological attributes. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone: 510-841-1039 fax: 510-841-1008 iaqkibbey@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------ In a message dated 10/16/98 5:24:53 AM, Pbsustain writes: >Thanks for a complete (and well told) post on casein paint. Your points >are well taken. The conversation has not included a cost for the powdered >version. Is it cheaper than conventional, low VOC or recycled content paint >(standard latex)? Are there commercial applications you would recommend >it for? How does it 'hold up' compared to 'standard' paints? I'm specifically >thinking of a restaurant client of mine. Thanks! > >Phil Bailey/SustainAbility ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 16 14:33:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA17943 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:33:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07407; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:17:10 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07026 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:16:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07018 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:16:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DRPXSJPY; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:28:23 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:30:53 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: recent experience with No VOC paints Message-ID: <19981016.143053.9270.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <6496cf1c.36277a7c@aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,8-11,13,16-17,19,25-33 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4654 Hi, I answered this question but forgot to also post it to the list. As you know , a large percentage of my clients are the chemically sensitive and those with allergies. First, let me say, what works for one chemically sensitive or allergic individual may not work for another. There are degrees and ranges of sensitivity that cover a truly broad spectrum. So far my experience has been as follows: Cassein Paint - spoils is this hot climate - will not use. Livos, Auro etc- uses natural oils that many allergic clients have reacted to Glidden 2000 - had problems with color separation in early formulation. Also is only no VOC if using premixed colors . Adding tints adds VOC Benj. Moore - Has some residual odor and same problem with added tints NonToxica - Good results and can be tinted any pastel to mid tone if ordered direct from factory. Was paint of choice for American Lung Assoc. Health Houses.Has been used in medical and operating room applications with excellent results. For info (800) 731-5007. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 16 17:34:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21031 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:34:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16115; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:18:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15650 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:18:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from swiss.direct.ca (swiss.direct.ca [199.60.229.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15646 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 17:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from reg-53-0186.direct.ca ([216.66.142.86] helo=kadulski) by swiss.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 0zUHRK-00019A-00; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:29:39 -0700 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: SIPs and vapor barriers Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 11:39:32 -0700 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4655 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: SIPs and vapor barriers > Date: Thursday, October 15, 1998 8:18 PM > I certainly have no interest in being argumentative, but I sure don't > understand your capitilized assertion that OSB or gyp. brd. or any other such > material constitutes a vapor barrier. I tried to highlight that there is a distinction between the "Air barrier" and "vapour barrier" functions of building envelopes. The National Building code of Canada in the latest edition has even clarified this distinction because there was some confusion. Many materials have the vapour diffusion resistant properties that meet the criteria for vapour barriers. OSB, plywood and some foam insulation products do meet these requirements. Gypsum board does NOT meet the criteria for vapour barriers. > > Considering that, for some reason that's simply beyond me, Tyvek fabric does > not constitute a vapor barrier (based on the manufacturer's own claims) yet > does make for a good infiltration barrier, it seems the vapor pressure > "problem" is a bit more complex than many sales reps. will lead us to believe. > Tyvek has physical properties that is porous to Vapour movement, but not to air movement. That is why it can be used as an AIR barrier, but not as a VAPOUR barrier. Please, let's not confuse air barrier and vapour barrier functions. In some instances the same product does both (as in caulked and sealed polyethylene). Since the late 1970's, when the push was started on air sealing houses and other buildings, the most common approach at that time was the sealed polyethylene air-vapour barier approach (and much of that work started on the Canadian prairies out of the National Research council's Saskatoon Saskatchewan research station). Over the years, a review of building science principles, and alternative construction methods led to the development of the air tight drywall approach, and hybrid construction methods. It was drawn out of the research findings that in cold climates, air movement through a building envelope could be responsible for 100 times the absolute quantity of moisture movement compared to vapour diffision through the material. Hence, the increased focus on air sealing. In many situations, if you air seal the envelope, even if you don't have a perfect vapour barrier, you will not encounter moisture problems. I agree that the vapour pressure problem must be taken in context of the location where you are building. You are in Saint Louis (MO?), where I believe (I stand to be corrected) you are at the edge of the moist humid southern climate, so vapour pressures and conditions are different than in a more northerly colder climate. > While I do make a living drawing and specifying various products, I am not an > architect that is willing to take what I'm told at face value. That simply > appears foolhardy to me, in light of the reality that our decisions and our > work will effect people for years to come. > > I have taken components apart with my own hands that supposedly had "enough" > in the way of a vapor barrier. While I am not a molecular chemist, I can > certainly recognize long term moisture damage when I see it. The issue is one of what is the moisture source, what the driving force is, and how is the moisture dealt with once it enters an assembly. Are the conditions available to create drying conditions or not? As long as materials can be dried relatively quickly, before deterioration can set in, construction assemblies will generally be able to tolerate cyclical wetting without undue damage. However, in many cases there is simply not enough drying potential, so the assemblies stay wet and deterioration (rot) can set in. [This is something the construction/development/design community is relearning the hard way in the Vancouver area] > > For members of the design community to relate ideas and issues to the public > in this sort of forum absolutely demands that we come down from any ivory > towers of "the broad view" and deal with the nuts and bolts problems. Like > myself, I am certain you would not risk the liability exposure of recommending > a solution to a problem in the built environment without making darn sure of > all of the extengencies of that situation. As far as I can tell, that > insight, the ability to see a more wholistic picture, is precisely what > Architecture has to offer the public. In many areas our very livelihoods are > only supported by ordinance or law, the majority of the public sees us as > completely superfluous and refuses to even consider the use of our services > whenever they can legally avoid it. > > Your response to the line of discussion is not wrong, in my mind. But it is > terribly incomplete and that makes it more than wrong, it makes it dangerous > and degrading to Architecture as a whole. > Basic physical principles are the same no matter where we live or work. However, the conditions that our buildings must withstand depend on climatic context. Thus, it is a matter of understanding how to apply the basic scientific principles to specific applications. Air sealing of building envelopes is important for most situations in northern latitudes. the nature and type of vapour barrier, and its location is much more variable, dependent on specific conditions, location, climate, etc. The genesis of this discussion dealt with SIP construction. Most SIP elements use OSB or plywood skins, so these do by their very nature, can meet vapour barrier requirements. Because they are large panels, they inherently make it easier to acheive an air tight building envelope with due care during construction. These will perform satisfactorily in all climates. > Excuse my biting tone, I wear a tie and still believe that Architecture has a > place in our society, and I have callouses from doing the very work I design. > > Jim Holdcraft > Saint Louis ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 16 18:20:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA21784 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:20:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA18708; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:04:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA18463 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:04:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA18459 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:03:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-04-176.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.128.176]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA13073 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:15:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:28:03 -0400 Message-ID: <01BDF932.B5D8B080.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: FW: GBlist: Healthy Termite control Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 18:26:51 -0400 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4656 Bill asked me to forward his reply to the list [JS:] wrote in a previous post.. >I have some concerns however. The idea of tightly grade sand acting as a >termite barrier is based, I believe, on choosing the sand so that it is >large enough that workers cant move, yet small enough that if a tunnel is >dug it will collapse. Adding salt makes sense (although it will leach away >over time in a wet climate) but adding lime may act to support the sand -- >e.g. the latter function, collapsing tunnels, will no longer work. Of >course, lime will make the sand an uninviting place for termites, so this >is good, but .... >What do you think? Bill Steen replies: I think that you think alot of the same things I thought during the process and still think. We didn't worry too much about the effectiveness of the technique because the building was already overun with termites and we used it more as an opportunity to observe the behavior of sand barriers. Our termite strategies had to shift to ones of removal rather than prevention. Why did we have the infestation? I think that is an interesting and complex story that in short could be summed-up briefly by saying that the best laid plans and designs, when implemented in a country where the workers have never known a home of their own for longer than a few years and are not concerned about permanency - and.....have a rather casual attitude about how things are done such as following intented strategies for 98% of the building and then omitting them on the remaining 2% leads to such things as termites. Anyway, on to sand barriers. We tried different types of sand, sized, re-sized and couldn't find a combination that kept the Sonoran termites from moving through them. The sizing of particles may work in theory, but it may be that in the case of foundations with rough sides, the termites were able to work their way along the edge of the sand and move their way along the edge of the foundation. I don't know, but they got through. It would take additional testing to really determine if there is a way to make them work. The interesting observation for us was that by the addition of other substances we could get them to behave the way we wanted. Since they were on the interior and not the exterior, I can't say whether or not the salt would leach away. The climate is dry and I would suppose the interior to stay dry. The lime could clearly do what you are suggesting especially in damp and moist climates. Wether or not we could make it work there would be someting to determine. We had intended to try other sand mixes with boric acid and borax, but didn't have the chance. Another note of interest is the relationship between earthen plasters and termites. Depending upon ones point of view, it could be good or bad. Termites loves to tunnel along the surfaces of these plasters. Apparently they find it a very conducive route to wherever they are going. Bad from an aesthetic standpoint, but good from the standpoint of knowing whether or not you have them in your building. After observing strawbales in combination with earthen plasters, we have not yet found any evidence of termites eating straw - tunneling through the plasters yes, but not eating the straw bales. They have that tremendous knack of knowing exactly where the wood is and going right for it. We also were able to watch them in straw/clay blocks that were made and set on the ground to dry. While the blocks were wet, the termites would surface and stay in the blocks until they dried out. Upon drying, they would depart leaving the blocks unharmed. Clearly, moisture was the motivating influence. Bill ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 16 20:00:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA22652 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 20:00:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA22907; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:44:30 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA22632 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:44:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22626 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:44:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-79-194.cyberzone.net [209.54.79.194]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:40:03 -0400 Message-ID: <362807A2.6517@cyberzone.net> Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:57:38 -0700 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Greetings Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4657 Greetings to the greenbuilding list. Having spent the last two or three days lurking in the background, I thought it was time to wade in and make myself known! I am in the process of designing a new home (an Energy-Crafted home in central CT), and my first question has to do with insulation. Insulation: I'm looking into using wet-spray cellulose as an alternative to fiberglass batts, and there are several subs in the area that do this. Has anyone used a product from Louisiana Pacific called Coccoon? Can cellulose be blown into a cathedral ceiling while still leaving space for ventilation? Also, does anyone have (positive) real-world experience with Icynene or any other blown or foamed products? I mostly get quizzical looks and skeptical comments from coworkers. Thanks. Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 16 22:41:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA24562 for ; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 22:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA28587; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 22:29:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 16 Oct 1998 22:24:15 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28194 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 22:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28190; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 22:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip22.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.22]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA29096; Fri, 16 Oct 1998 22:35:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981017025133.00972ef8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 22:51:33 -0400 To: ee-building@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: GBlist: recycling 350 yr old lumber Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4658 A job we just go on to, has dismantled a 350 year old colonial fireplace surround & cabinets, unfortunately they split many wide boards. But it all is available - free or at minimal cost (the owner will have to be contacted). You pick it up in Westhampton Beach, NY. Email or call 516/477-2922 for details. PS: It is National Solar Tour Day tomorrow - see you there ... best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 18 20:35:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA14198 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA13066; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:22:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:17:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12641 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:17:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com (mail.planeta.com [206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12636 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:17:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000032582 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 19:26:04 -0500 Date: Sun, 18 Oct 98 19:40:00 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: exemplary examples sought To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5566998.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4659 eloggie@erols.com writes: 2) Which green buildings outside North America are considered to be the best of the best? I've heard excellent reviews of the NMB Bank building in The Netherlands... -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Oct 18 21:43:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA15084 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:43:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16467; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:31:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:28:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16117 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16109 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:27:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.137] (rkd9.acadia.net [205.217.217.137]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA11235 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:39:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:38:50 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Cork Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4660 John Salmen wrote: >A general question on cork as sound insulation (dampening). Having to >create some good specifications (good also means cost effective) for a >sound barrier between two floors of an existing bldg. Simplest thought >was to run a layer of cork underlayment (2.5 or 4ml) and float a cork >floor over. Cork people made a comparision of 2.5ml cork being the >equivalent of 3-4" of concrete. Anyone have thoughts on sound > end of quote John, it depends on the frequency of the sound. The system you describe will be of help at stopping footfall noise and sounds in the mid-to-high frequency range. Low frequency (bass) sounds are better stopped by mass, such as concrete. Based on our experiences, I find it really hard to believe that the thin layer of cork you describe would equal 3 to 4 inches of concrete. Would love to see substantiation of the claim. (By the way, what are your units? What do you mean by 2.5 ml cork?) David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 00:00:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA16537 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 00:00:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA01530; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:42:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA00838 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:42:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00810 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 23:42:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.79]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 1121000 ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 21:22:59 -0800 Message-ID: <362AB743.117BC60@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 20:51:32 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Cork References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4661 Hi David I agree, and have equal concerns about how such claims can be substantiated. 2.5 millimeters of cork is quite thin and I would think would only work on short waves. My original specs were for mass but the structure will not support even a gypsum layer. My original question was about input on cork. I have experience on its thermal value and my only experience with acoustic seperation is with mass and mechanical seperation. best John David M. Foley wrote: > John Salmen wrote: > > >A general question on cork as sound insulation (dampening). Having to > >create some good specifications (good also means cost effective) for a > >sound barrier between two floors of an existing bldg. Simplest thought > >was to run a layer of cork underlayment (2.5 or 4ml) and float a cork > >floor over. Cork people made a comparision of 2.5ml cork being the > >equivalent of 3-4" of concrete. Anyone have thoughts on sound > > > end of quote > > John, it depends on the frequency of the sound. The system you describe > will be of help at stopping footfall noise and sounds in the mid-to-high > frequency range. Low frequency (bass) sounds are better stopped by mass, > such as concrete. Based on our experiences, I find it really hard to > believe that the thin layer of cork you describe would equal 3 to 4 inches > of concrete. Would love to see substantiation of the claim. (By the way, > what are your units? What do you mean by 2.5 ml cork?) > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 00:19:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA16678 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 00:19:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA02581; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 00:07:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 00:02:16 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA02298 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 00:02:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com (mail.planeta.com [206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA02294 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 00:02:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000032618 for ; Sun, 18 Oct 1998 22:01:09 -0500 Date: Sun, 18 Oct 98 22:15:08 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: Indoor Air Quality To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5567111.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4662 redelson@gis.net writes: Could the person who occassionally posts a notice on her/his group on INDOOR AIR QUALITY on this listserve please drop me a line?? OR, if anyone knows any organization that addresses issues of indoor air quality, please let me know. I found this among my files. I haven't joined the list yet, so I can't say much about it other than what's here. BC --- The IAQ List discusses issues and concerns regarding " Indoor Air Quality". A variety of things can pollute & contaminate the indoor air quality of a home, office or building from molds and bioaerosols to combustion by-products like carbon monoxide, soot, PAHs & VOCs - many can cause serious health concerns and, in some cases, extensive property damage. This list will address the identification and mitigation of contaminants. The IAQ Listserve subscribers consist of highly qualified individuals in IAQ consulting, environmental health, science & research, H/VAC engineering , industrial hygiene, risk management, medicine & law. The posts are usually not so numerous to be burdensome ; however when subscribing, the "Digest" option is provided if you prefer to receive posts in one e-mail. There is no advertising involved or permitted on the list - only a growing group of professionals interested in addressing IAQ concerns & solutions. C. Flanders IAQ List Manager rkfabf@aol.com You can join this list by going to the following web page: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 09:39:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21258 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:39:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18754; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:27:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:23:52 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18253 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:23:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18249 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:23:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip80.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.80]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA32332; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:35:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981019135134.0097993c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:51:34 -0400 To: iaq@onelist.com From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: GBlist: CO2 Tester Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4663 Does anyone know of a reasonably priced ($200) CO2 meter that plugs into a multimeter ?? I have ones of CO and lux/footcandles, but haven't seen one for CO2. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 10:02:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA21503 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:02:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21356; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:50:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:46:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA20589 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:46:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from multi13.netcomi.com (dkdalton@multi13.netcomi.com [204.58.155.213]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA20559 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from dkdalton@localhost) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id IAA06637; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:51:25 -0500 Received: from onelist.com (www.onelist.com [207.153.200.171]) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id IAA06631 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:51:23 -0500 Received: (qmail 21811 invoked by uid 99); 19 Oct 1998 13:55:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 10935 invoked from network); 19 Oct 1998 13:32:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO camel14.mindspring.com) (207.69.200.64) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 19 Oct 1998 13:32:16 -0000 Received: from greentree (ip80.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.80]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA32332; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:35:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981019135134.0097993c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:51:34 -0400 Old-To: iaq@onelist.com From: Frazer Dougherty Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact http://www.onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: GBlist: [iaq] CO2 Tester X-Loop: dkdalton@aztecenvironmental.com To: aztecfw@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4664 From: Frazer Dougherty Does anyone know of a reasonably priced ($200) CO2 meter that plugs into a multimeter ?? I have ones of CO and lux/footcandles, but haven't seen one for CO2. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the day: "Green Seal--Homepage" http://www.greenseal.org "Green Seal is the independent, nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the environment by promoting the manufacture and sale of environmentally responsible consumer products. It sets environmental standards and awards a "Green Seal of Approval" to products that cause less harm to the environment than other similar products." ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 10:02:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA21508 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:02:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21366; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:50:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:46:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA20560 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from multi4.netcomi.com (rjbynum@multi4.netcomi.com [204.58.155.204]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA20555 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rjbynum@localhost) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id IAA12988; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:54:43 -0500 Received: from onelist.com (www.onelist.com [207.153.200.171]) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id IAA12981 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 08:54:40 -0500 Received: (qmail 21811 invoked by uid 99); 19 Oct 1998 13:55:46 -0000 Received: (qmail 10935 invoked from network); 19 Oct 1998 13:32:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO camel14.mindspring.com) (207.69.200.64) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 19 Oct 1998 13:32:16 -0000 Received: from greentree (ip80.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.80]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA32332; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:35:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981019135134.0097993c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:51:34 -0400 Old-To: iaq@onelist.com From: Frazer Dougherty Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact http://www.onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: GBlist: [iaq] CO2 Tester X-Loop: rbynum@usenergycontrols.com To: rjbynum@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4665 From: Frazer Dougherty Does anyone know of a reasonably priced ($200) CO2 meter that plugs into a multimeter ?? I have ones of CO and lux/footcandles, but haven't seen one for CO2. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the day: "Green Seal--Homepage" http://www.greenseal.org "Green Seal is the independent, nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the environment by promoting the manufacture and sale of environmentally responsible consumer products. It sets environmental standards and awards a "Green Seal of Approval" to products that cause less harm to the environment than other similar products." ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 11:07:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22493 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:06:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26123; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:54:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:49:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25370 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:49:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25354 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:49:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA21356 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:00:09 -0500 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:58:12 -0500 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Strawbale R-Values: ORNL tests?? Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:58:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4666 Does anyone have any recent info on the strawbale R-value tests that were being conducted at Oak Ridge Labs? I saw a listing on another mailing list that said the 1997 tests showed a dissapointingly low R-value, and that they were going to modify the wall details, and rerun the tests in spring of 1998. Anyone know results from these tests??? - Patrick Pierquet Enjoying an unusually pleasant autumn in Minnesota ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 11:14:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22603 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:14:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26717; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:01:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:58:29 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26305 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:58:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26301 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:58:15 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DRXBLAJ7; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:09:22 EDT To: doughf@mindspring.com Cc: iaq@onelist.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:56:55 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: CO2 Tester Message-ID: <19981019.103305.-189881.9.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-11,13-39 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4667 I could use the lux/foot candles option. Please tell me more! Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7147 http://www.sbtdesigns.com www.artistmall.com On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:51:34 -0400 Frazer Dougherty writes: >Does anyone know of a reasonably priced ($200) CO2 meter that plugs >into a >multimeter ?? I have ones of CO and lux/footcandles, but haven't seen >one >for CO2. >best -- >--------------------------------------------------------------- >Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 >North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com >511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) >Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org > >Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to >contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, >efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the >house as a whole system. >--------------------------------------------------------------- > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 12:55:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24223 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:55:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02267; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:43:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:39:03 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01899 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01895 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust197.tnt2.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.31.197]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id LAA15906; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:50:26 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <362B6EA9.5445@gte.net> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:54:01 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: exemplary examples sought References: <5566998.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4668 I'd look into the new Nike Europe headquarters being built in Hilversum, NL. McDonough & Partners architects. On a broader scale the entire Ecovillage at Alphen an de Rhine in NL might also be of interest -- materials, energy, water, IAQ, transportation etc Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 12:58:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24262 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:58:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02590; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:46:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:42:50 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02211 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:42:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02200; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:42:31 -0400 (EDT) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id CRAa019214; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:53:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8ceccc9c.362b6e8f@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:53:35 EDT To: terrain@cow-net.com, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, dmfoley@acadia.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Cork Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4669 In a message dated 10/18/98 11:56:40 PM, terrain@cow-net.com wrote: <> Just to throw another factor in here, I am under the impression that cork is highly flamable. Can someone verify or disabuse me of this notion?A Dan Hemenway ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 13:17:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA24583 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:17:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03521; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:04:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:01:11 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03243 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:01:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03238 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:00:58 -0400 (EDT) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DRXJMQR4; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:12:29 EDT To: ppierquet@Teltech.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:36:51 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Strawbale R-Values: ORNL tests?? Message-ID: <19981019.123631.-189881.10.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-9,11-33 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4670 Ask them about the heat and humidity generated from this type biomass. Also ask them about how long it takes the straw to decompose as it sits inside your wall. Then see how this compares to using Earth or rock. On Mon, 19 Oct 1998 09:58:09 -0500 Patrick Pierquet writes: >Does anyone have any recent info on the strawbale R-value tests that >were >being conducted at Oak Ridge Labs? I saw a listing on another mailing >list >that said the 1997 tests showed a dissapointingly low R-value, and >that they >were going to modify the wall details, and rerun the tests in spring >of >1998. Anyone know results from these tests??? > >- Patrick Pierquet >Enjoying an unusually pleasant autumn in Minnesota >ppierquet@teltech.com > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 14:06:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA25447 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:05:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07100; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:53:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:49:40 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06682 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:49:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from arl-img-11.compuserve.com (arl-img-11.compuserve.com [149.174.217.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06670 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:49:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from root@localhost) by arl-img-11.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.14) id OAA08508 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:00:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 14:00:16 -0400 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: GBlist: IAQ Seminar 11/6 Syracuse NY To: GBList Message-ID: <199810191400_MC2-5D32-868C@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA06671 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4671 Another business opportunity seminar from the Building Performance Contractors Association (BPCA) Noted building science trainer, Terry Brennan of Camroden Associates, will present an all day training on residential indoor air quality on November 6th in Syracuse, NY. Topics will include causes and cures of residential indoor air quality problems. Curing wet basements and diagnosing problems with staining will be covered in detail to present the basic concepts of developing and implementing a treatment. There will be an excellent series of handouts. Cost is $50 for BPCA members, $75 for non-members. The seminar will be held at Niagara Mohawk's Training Center at 1304 Buckley Road in Liverpool, NY, just north of Syracuse, from 8:30 AM to 4:30 PM. An adobe PDF file with additional information and a registration form is available. Please respond to the email below for a copy. Please forward this email message or print the PDF file and fax to interested parties. For more information on the workshop or on BPCA please contact: Gregory Thomas 121 Rachel Carson Way Ithaca, NY 14850 g_thomas@compuserve.com 607-277-6240 607-277-6224 fax ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 16:19:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA27819 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:19:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15298; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:06:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:02:34 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA14921 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:02:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14916 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:02:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.110] (pm1a14.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.110]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA06944; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:13:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Patrick Pierquet , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Strawbale R-Values: ORNL tests?? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4672 At 9:58 AM -0500 10/19/98, Patrick Pierquet wrote: >Does anyone have any recent info on the strawbale R-value tests that were >being conducted at Oak Ridge Labs? I saw a listing on another mailing list >that said the 1997 tests showed a dissapointingly low R-value, and that they >were going to modify the wall details, and rerun the tests in spring of >1998. Anyone know results from these tests??? We have an article in the October issue of EBN, which is in the mail (a little later than we had hoped). The Oak Ridge tests showed that the R-value of a wall with 19"-wide bales laid flat, stuccoed on both sides and allowed to dry fully, was about R-28. This is very good, but considerably lower than the R-50 to R-60 that the earliest thermal performance testing had shown. The R-28 is higher, however, than some other tests that were done by Oak Ridge showing an R-value of only R-17. For more details and thoughts on why these discrepancies exist, check out our October issue (which has a feature article on linoleum). Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 17:13:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA28465 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:13:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19262; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:01:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:57:59 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA18880 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:57:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc532.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.157]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18876 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 16:57:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from AE-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:11:13 -0400 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 17:10:46 -0400 From: "Arnie Katz" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, dpharazim@cyberzone.net Subject: Re: GBlist: Greetings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA18877 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4673 Dan Harazim wrote: "Has anyone used a product from Louisiana Pacific called Coccoon? Can cellulose be blown into a cathedral ceiling while still leaving space for ventilation? " In the last year or so, I've worked with nearly a hundred insulation contractors for Greenstone (Lousiana Pacific). Cocoon is the brand name for their cellulose inslulation product. I've seen dozens of installations all over the country, and it seems to be an excellent product. Like all insulations, though, it's only as good as the contractor who installs it. Typically, the detail for a vented cathedral ceiling is to use baffles to create the vented air space, net the bottoms of the rafters, and dry blow the space. I've seen a number of successful applications of this approach. arnie Arnie Katz Building Science Specialist Advanced Energy 909 Capability Drive Raleigh, NC 27606 919/857-9029 FAX: 919/832-2696 akatz@aec.ncsu.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 22:09:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA05970 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:08:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05371; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:56:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:52:37 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA04937 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:52:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA04930 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 21:52:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from greentree (ip115.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.115]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA08600; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:04:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981020022019.0096f2bc@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:20:19 -0400 To: sbtauto@juno.com From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: CO2 Tester Cc: iaq@onelist.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4674 At 09:56 AM 10/19/1998 -0500, sbtauto@juno.com wrote: >I could use the lux/foot candles option ... Mine's only in Fc. & made by EXTECH Instruments (Light Adaptor #401020), with no address - I believe it was bundled with a credit card multimeter for $60 - $70 five yaers ago. Specialized Products now has a non-detachable EXTECH Fc/Lux meter for $119, plus data hold, analogue output, etc.. I'd buy that one, but shop around first, I once found very good prices from a supplier in Maryland and a web site - let me know if you find them. It wouldn't hurt us all to have a database of cheap, reliable & useful tools for the various kinds of work we are all doing. I just bought a 'Moisture Encounter' based upon what Terry Brennan & I can't wait for my 1st encounter. We also use a lot of Onset Hoboes - cheap, flexible and except for bugs & dirt, I've never had a problem. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 22:46:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA06333 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:46:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA07185; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:33:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:30:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA06850 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:30:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06843 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:30:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [205.217.217.166] (rkd38.acadia.net [205.217.217.166]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA12868 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:41:47 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:41:09 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Linoleum Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4675 Thanks to everyone who generously shared insights into linoleum installation. Here's what we've learned so far: it's very likely that this particular linoleum manufacturer asks for a slab moisture content that is, as a practical matter, impossible to achieve. They want concrete slabs to have no more than a 3% moisture content, when 12% is common, even among two-year-old slabs installed in an exemplary way. This may be akin to asking for 2% moisture content in hardwood, when 6% is the practical lower limit. The consulting geotechnical firm we've contacted says that they have about 8 other consultations going right now concerning this same problem. We really like linoleum and want to keep using it. So we'd like to know practical, real-world ways to install it. Nothing could do more to harm the reputation of this "green" material than a rash of reports of failed installations. Environmental building has enough obstacles without self-inflicted ones. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 22:48:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA06364 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:48:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA07427; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:36:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:33:18 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07091 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:33:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns2.gis.net (ns2.gis.net [208.218.130.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07085 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:33:05 -0400 (EDT) From: redelson@gis.net Received: from [216.41.32.8] ([216.41.32.211]) by ns2.gis.net (8.8.8/8.8.8+djf) with ESMTP id WAA26267; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:49:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:49:11 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: redelson@208.218.130.20 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: mucho thanks! Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4676 hey, what a crew we have on this list! i ask one little ol' question about indoor air quality and i get a bazillion (private) responses. i want to thank all who have helped me out yet again! (FYI: a bazillion is 100 gazillions) warmly, rebecca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 22:57:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA06441 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA07844; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:41:42 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07607 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07603 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:41:30 -0400 (EDT) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id OZHPa10440; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:51:14 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: <62ba7d53.362bfaa2@aol.com> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:51:14 EDT To: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Indoor Air Quality Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4677 I would appreciate any comments on the IAQ List described in the recent post (at "Onelist...") . I checked out the web site, but am reluctant to join because they ask for permission to share registration information with others. Ian Ian Shapiro Taitem Engineering 108 S. Albany St. Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX imshapiro@aol.com "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 23:05:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA06517 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA08717; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:53:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:49:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08359 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:49:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08343 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:49:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [208.253.23.252] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:07:08 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Your address will never be shared Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:05:02 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1303294867-3908491@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4678 Ian and everyone, This would be a good time to reassure you all that the names and email addresses of subsribers to this list have not -- and will never be -- shared. Just though you'd like to know. Bruce S co-moderator >I would appreciate any comments on the IAQ List described in the recent post >(at "Onelist...") . I checked out the web site, but am reluctant to join >because they ask >for permission to share registration information with others. > >Ian > ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 19 23:21:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA06791 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:21:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09455; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:09:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:05:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA09204 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:05:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09200 for ; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 23:05:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000029009; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:17:19 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981020032009.00692344@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:20:09 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: termite control Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4679 I need to build a little porch and small deck off a stem wall that comes too close to the ground for easing my fears about potential termite problems. This is Kansas where the carpenter ants flout their presence and termites are endemic (though it's not as bad as further south and we have a site that is all wooded so there's lots of stuff for the termites to eat). Nevertheless I want to do what I can to provide no easy access to my SIP walls at a place where, once built, I won't be able to see any evidence of termites. Hence the idea that sand of a certain coarseness provides a barrier to termites was to be my solution. Seems though that real life experience may belie this possibility (see Bill Steen's comments via John Straube). Wondering now what lime has to do with the potential solution? Would like to see some discussion on this topic from anyone who has had experience with this sand barrier, or any other technique that proved useful. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 07:55:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA11272 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:55:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA27237; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:43:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:39:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA26625 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:39:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA26621 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:39:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on3-14.netcom.ca [207.181.90.142]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA17103; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 07:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810201150.HAA17103@tor-smtp1.netcom.ca> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 06:49:50 -0400 To: Frazer Dougherty From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: CO2 Tester Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19981020022019.0096f2bc@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4680 At 10:20 PM 19/10/98 -0400, Frazer Dougherty wrote: (snip) >It wouldn't hurt us all to have a database of cheap, reliable & useful tools >for the various kinds of work we are all doing. One of my favorites is my Raytek ST2 point-and-shoot infrared thermometer, available through my local auto parts supplier for about $150. We use it for all kinds of things - oven thermometer, cooking, thermal diagnostics of buildings. I've clocked our cat at 210 F surface temperature lying in front of the fireplace. Very useful for finding missing insulation in walls. Best...........Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 09:12:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA11958 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:12:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00419; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:00:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:57:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00089 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:56:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00084 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:56:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.110] (pm4a28.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.28]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA18131; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:08:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:08:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Linoleum Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4681 At 10:41 PM -0400 10/19/98, David M. Foley wrote: >Thanks to everyone who generously shared insights into linoleum >installation. Here's what we've learned so far: it's very likely that >this particular linoleum manufacturer asks for a slab moisture content that >is, as a practical matter, impossible to achieve. They want concrete slabs >to have no more than a 3% moisture content, when 12% is common, even among >two-year-old slabs installed in an exemplary way. This may be akin to >asking for 2% moisture content in hardwood, when 6% is the practical lower >limit. A flooring installation contractor I spoke with for the article I just wrote on linoleum (October issue of EBN) said that he does 95% of his linoleum installations on concrete slab floors and always tests for moisture (roughly 10% of his $1 to 1.5 million/year commercial flooring business in natural linoleum and he's based in northern Vermont where moisture is definitely a concern). He said that water vapor emissions from the slab should be no more than 5 pounds per 1,000 square feet over a 24-hour period and that standard testing procedures are used to determine this. (He did not describe how moisture emissions relate to moisture _content_.) He sometimes uses a product called SealFlex ($2.50/sq ft extra) to install resilient flooring on slabs when the moisture content is higher--using this they will warranty floors with moisture emissions up to 10.4 lbs/1000 sq ft-day. He also said that Forbo Industries offers a very thorough week-long flooring installation certification program. He suggested including in architectural specifications the requirement that linoleum be installed by a Forbo-certified flooring contractor. On the subject of linoleum, our October issue also covers the recent purchase by Armstrong of the German company DLW. DLW is the world's second-largest manufacturer of linoleum. Armstrong's reentry into that industry (they closed their last linoleum plant in 1975) may mean an end to the company's negativism toward linoleum. (Armstrong is the world's largest manufacturer of vinyl (PVC) flooring.) The October issue of EBN is just being mailed out this week, so you should be getting it shortly--sorry for the delay this month! -Alex Wilson Environmental Building News http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 09:35:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12358 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:35:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01770; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:23:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:20:12 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA01334 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:20:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from multi13.netcomi.com (dkdalton@multi13.netcomi.com [204.58.155.213]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01330 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:20:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from dkdalton@localhost) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id IAA19291; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:23:32 -0500 Received: from onelist.com (www.onelist.com [207.153.200.171]) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id IAA19285 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:23:30 -0500 Received: (qmail 8909 invoked by uid 99); 20 Oct 1998 13:29:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 14571 invoked from network); 20 Oct 1998 02:05:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO camel7.mindspring.com) (207.69.200.57) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 20 Oct 1998 02:05:20 -0000 Received: from greentree (ip115.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.115]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA08600; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:04:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981020022019.0096f2bc@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:20:19 -0400 Old-To: sbtauto@juno.com From: Frazer Dougherty Cc: iaq@onelist.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact http://www.onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [iaq] Re: GBlist: CO2 Tester X-Loop: dkdalton@aztecenvironmental.com To: aztecfw@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4682 From: Frazer Dougherty At 09:56 AM 10/19/1998 -0500, sbtauto@juno.com wrote: >I could use the lux/foot candles option ... Mine's only in Fc. & made by EXTECH Instruments (Light Adaptor #401020), with no address - I believe it was bundled with a credit card multimeter for $60 - $70 five yaers ago. Specialized Products now has a non-detachable EXTECH Fc/Lux meter for $119, plus data hold, analogue output, etc.. I'd buy that one, but shop around first, I once found very good prices from a supplier in Maryland and a web site - let me know if you find them. It wouldn't hurt us all to have a database of cheap, reliable & useful tools for the various kinds of work we are all doing. I just bought a 'Moisture Encounter' based upon what Terry Brennan & I can't wait for my 1st encounter. We also use a lot of Onset Hoboes - cheap, flexible and except for bugs & dirt, I've never had a problem. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the day: "Green Seal--Homepage" http://www.greenseal.org "Green Seal is the independent, nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the environment by promoting the manufacture and sale of environmentally responsible consumer products. It sets environmental standards and awards a "Green Seal of Approval" to products that cause less harm to the environment than other similar products." ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 09:35:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12367 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:35:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01782; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:20:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA01358 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:20:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from multi4.netcomi.com (rjbynum@multi4.netcomi.com [204.58.155.204]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01353 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:20:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from rjbynum@localhost) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id IAA01066; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:27:39 -0500 Received: from onelist.com (www.onelist.com [207.153.200.171]) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id IAA01060 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:27:37 -0500 Received: (qmail 8909 invoked by uid 99); 20 Oct 1998 13:29:40 -0000 Received: (qmail 14571 invoked from network); 20 Oct 1998 02:05:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO camel7.mindspring.com) (207.69.200.57) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 20 Oct 1998 02:05:20 -0000 Received: from greentree (ip115.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.115]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA08600; Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:04:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981020022019.0096f2bc@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 22:20:19 -0400 Old-To: sbtauto@juno.com From: Frazer Dougherty Cc: iaq@onelist.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact http://www.onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [iaq] Re: GBlist: CO2 Tester X-Loop: rbynum@usenergycontrols.com To: rjbynum@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4683 From: Frazer Dougherty At 09:56 AM 10/19/1998 -0500, sbtauto@juno.com wrote: >I could use the lux/foot candles option ... Mine's only in Fc. & made by EXTECH Instruments (Light Adaptor #401020), with no address - I believe it was bundled with a credit card multimeter for $60 - $70 five yaers ago. Specialized Products now has a non-detachable EXTECH Fc/Lux meter for $119, plus data hold, analogue output, etc.. I'd buy that one, but shop around first, I once found very good prices from a supplier in Maryland and a web site - let me know if you find them. It wouldn't hurt us all to have a database of cheap, reliable & useful tools for the various kinds of work we are all doing. I just bought a 'Moisture Encounter' based upon what Terry Brennan & I can't wait for my 1st encounter. We also use a lot of Onset Hoboes - cheap, flexible and except for bugs & dirt, I've never had a problem. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the day: "Green Seal--Homepage" http://www.greenseal.org "Green Seal is the independent, nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting the environment by promoting the manufacture and sale of environmentally responsible consumer products. It sets environmental standards and awards a "Green Seal of Approval" to products that cause less harm to the environment than other similar products." ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 09:54:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12642 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:54:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03171; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:38:27 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02629 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:38:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from panther.wcs.org (panther.wcs.org [207.198.132.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02624 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:38:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wcs.org ([207.198.134.84]) by panther.wcs.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.52) with ESMTP id AAA670D; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:48:16 -0400 Message-ID: <362C9450.F5ED1A61@wcs.org> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:46:56 -0400 From: "Jon Dohlin" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Norbert Senf CC: Frazer Dougherty , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: GBlist feline flash points References: <199810201150.HAA17103@tor-smtp1.netcom.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4684 Norbert Senf wrote: > I've clocked our cat at 210 F surface temperature lying in front > of the fireplace. norbert-- please be careful!! according to the february issue of "the journal of incendiary incidents" the combustion point of a typical housecat (in the report a valuable bluepoint siamese named ferdy) is 211 F. many hitherto inexplicable housefires may be traced to dozing pets and toasty hearths. it happens more often than you think! jon > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 09:54:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12648 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:54:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03238; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:42:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:39:04 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02706 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:38:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02695 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:38:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1MCNa29193; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:49:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:49:44 EDT To: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Indoor Air Quality Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4685 Ian, I'm afraid you are mistaken about the IAQ List hosted on OneList or perhaps you are referring to another listserve. Absolutely no one but the moderator has access to the subscriber list and this information is not available for sale or distribution under any circumstance. This is clearly stated in the the following text from the "Welcome" letter. *Please note -The IAQ List will never rent, sell, or otherwise distribute the email addresses of list subscribers. We have a strict anti-spam policy and have implemented several features to deter spam and address harvesting. Regards, Cathy Flanders IAQ List Manager & Moderator Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq IAQ Listserve (to search archives) http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/iaq In a message dated 98-10-20 01:48:24 EDT, you write: << I would appreciate any comments on the IAQ List described in the recent post (at "Onelist...") . I checked out the web site, but am reluctant to join because they ask for permission to share registration information with others. Ian >> ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 10:07:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12918 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:07:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04551; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:51:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03680 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:51:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03675 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:51:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from default (ip13.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.32]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA153 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:06:47 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19981020102709.00830b10@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:27:09 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: GBlist: I Just Come Up With These Ideas... In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19981020032009.00692344@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4686 I'm starting a new project that will develop yet another IAQ model, this time to look at exposures to disinfectant byproducts delivered by the water supply (e.g., chloroform, and things like that). In trying to overcome many of the input limitations that have plagued past efforts, I'm hoping to uncover usable data sources to represent room sizes and the like. From previous work, we're already onto databases that give indights for basic attributes (e.g., # baths, #bedrooms, total floorspace, heating/cooling system, etc.). For this modeling problem, however, room size takes on a special importance, and we need to dig deeper into defining the building. Especially for rooms designated for water use like the kitchen, bath, and laundry. At the other end of the problem, though, is the sheer mass of numbers that comes with an expectation of modeling populations of houses... simple and representative are hard to match sometimes. Seems to me that there's a fair degree of modularity in the way that homes are put together. For the most part, rooms come in a limited variety of sizes based on codes and conventions. Is there an authoratative resource that a humble IAQ guy can access? Do Autocad-like programs come with reliable libraries? Oddly enough, the mathematics frees us from a need envision floorplans. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 11:04:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13879 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:04:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09395; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:52:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:48:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08906 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pca-ex01.mpca (pca-ex01.pca.state.mn.us [156.98.210.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08898 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:48:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by pca-ex01.pca.state.mn.us with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:03:21 -0500 Message-ID: <6CF0581EC9C1D111B48600805FBEB878016D6E75@pca-ex01.pca.state.mn.us> From: "Barnes-Driscoll, Erin" To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: GB regs. and incentives Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:03:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4687 > Does anyone have information on other states or local goverments that have > enacted green building or construction recycling regulations, policies or > incentives? The Minnesota Office of Environmental Assistance is in the > process of compiling a list and would love your input. > > Thanks Erin Barnes-Driscoll Minnesota Office of Environmental Assistance 520 Lafayette Road North St. Paul, MN 55155-4100 612/215-0211 800/657-3843 FAX - 612/215-0246 erin.driscoll@moea.state.mn.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 11:07:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13938 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:07:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09808; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:55:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:51:48 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09211 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:51:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09200 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:51:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DRZVLVJT; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:02:44 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:04:40 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Flooring Message-ID: <19981020.110526.9310.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-7,13-21 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4688 Hi, I am still working on the Colorado project. Originally, we were looking at linoleum for the basement/greenhouse. We have since rejected the product as a)too industrial and b) too potentially allergenic. This space is a two story space overlooking the valley below and overlooked by the kitchen and dining room upstairs. One new product I am looking at for the area, which will be an indoor children's play area as well, is Stratica by Amtico. It is publicized as non-chlorine non-vinyl polymer flooring. We received samples and it seems to have no odor, is attractive and looks to be easy care with some resilience. Granted, it's not natural but the main concern in this installation is "healthy". PS-It also is ISO certified. Has anyone used this product or had a chance to assess it? Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 11:08:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13951 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09855; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:55:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:51:57 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09234 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:51:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09225 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:51:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DRZVLVMJ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:02:44 EDT To: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:05:25 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: termite control Message-ID: <19981020.110526.9310.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <1.5.4.32.19981020032009.00692344@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-8 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4689 Hi, Just a quick thought but wouldn't plastic lumber be a solution? Seems to be resistant to most insects and other "critters", Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 12:18:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14958 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:18:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14759; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:06:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:02:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14050 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:02:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14042 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:02:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on3-17.netcom.ca [207.181.90.145]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07639; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:13:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810201613.MAA07639@tor-smtp1.netcom.ca> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:12:57 -0400 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: CO2 Tester Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: References: <199810201150.HAA17103@tor-smtp1.netcom.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4690 At 07:48 AM 20/10/98 -0600, you wrote: > >Norbert: Is it useful for measuring temperatures in a masonry heater (ie. >max. temp.1200dF)?. Jorg This particular model goes to 750F. More expensive models ($3295 CDN from Alaron Instruments, Toronto, 800-559-6238) go up to 5400F. Best......Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 12:18:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14963 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:18:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14810; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:06:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:02:56 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14109 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:02:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14096 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:02:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mheat (ott-on3-17.netcom.ca [207.181.90.145]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07852; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:13:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 11:13:38 -0400 To: "Jon Dohlin" From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: GBlist feline flash points Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <362C9450.F5ED1A61@wcs.org> References: <199810201150.HAA17103@tor-smtp1.netcom.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4691 At 09:46 AM 20/10/98 -0400, you wrote: >please be careful!! according to the february issue of "the journal of >incendiary incidents" the combustion point of a typical housecat (in the report a >valuable bluepoint siamese named ferdy) is 211 F. many hitherto inexplicable >housefires may be traced to dozing pets and toasty hearths. it happens more >often than you think! > Thanks for the warning, Jon -- I shall install a cat combustion detector. Best.........Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 13:14:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16005 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:13:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18486; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:01:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:58:25 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18079 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail1.sirius.com (mail1.sirius.com [205.134.253.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18062 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 12:58:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ernestine.smwm.com (mail.smwm.com [207.44.205.4]) by mail1.sirius.com (8.8.8/Sirius-8.8.7-97.08.12) with ESMTP id KAA09909 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail.smwm.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:56:04 -0700 Message-ID: <51997E0AE7F0D111813D00805FED2E54B615@mail.smwm.com> From: Anthony Bernheim To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: Flooring Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:56:03 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4692 Beverly, We too are interested in using this product as the manufacturer's claim of low emissions is good. We have requested the emissions test data to substantiate the claims but have received nothing after repeated requests. The other question that we have raised is durability in high traffic areas. We still need to be convinced about the long term performance of the product. One other concern we have is that the product is currently made in the UK and needs to be transported into the US. They are planning to open a US plant sometime in 1999. In other words, we are looking for the same input that you are! Anthony Bernheim. -----Original Message----- From: environs.com@juno.com [mailto:environs.com@juno.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 1998 11:05 AM To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Flooring Hi, I am still working on the Colorado project. Originally, we were looking at linoleum for the basement/greenhouse. We have since rejected the product as a)too industrial and b) too potentially allergenic. This space is a two story space overlooking the valley below and overlooked by the kitchen and dining room upstairs. One new product I am looking at for the area, which will be an indoor children's play area as well, is Stratica by Amtico. It is publicized as non-chlorine non-vinyl polymer flooring. We received samples and it seems to have no odor, is attractive and looks to be easy care with some resilience. Granted, it's not natural but the main concern in this installation is "healthy". PS-It also is ISO certified. Has anyone used this product or had a chance to assess it? Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 13:30:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16210 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19423; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:14:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19058 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19054; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:14:14 -0400 (EDT) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id RKPCa17824; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:18:27 EDT To: environs.com@juno.com, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Flooring Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4693 In a message dated 10/20/98 11:05:14 AM, environs.com@juno.com wrote: <> You dont want any such covering in a greenhouse. You want something you can scrub down vigorously gently sloped to drains so you can scrub and flush to maintain sanitation. If it needs to be cute, you can use ceramic tile, color determined by latitude and other design factors. anything you can't take a wire brush to is detrimental. You have to be able to CLEAN, with a vengence, greenhouse surfaces. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 14:06:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA17955 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:06:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21687; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:54:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:51:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA21356 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:50:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA21346 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:50:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from preinstalledcom (207-172-240-167.s40.as3.bsd.erols.com [207.172.240.167]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA16520 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:02:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981020014523.006f3350@pop.erols.com> X-Sender: usbt@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:45:16 -0400 To: From: Joseph Arons Charlson Subject: GBlist: Straw Enthusiasts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4694 Straw enthusiasts should check out work done recently at MIT on a rigid straw board containing approximately 2% binder (MDI) and acheiving R-values of 3.6 for reasonably structural (meaning sufficient to hold its own weight, be handled, and installed with fasteners). No one is producing such a board in the US now but if you know of companies with potential interests, please have them contact me. Results can be found in a recent paper published in the 98 ACEEE proceedings and in the upcoming Thermal VII conference. Regards, Joe ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 15:11:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA20631 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:11:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25746; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:55:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25398 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:55:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25392 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:55:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DR2BD8BZ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:03:46 EDT To: alex@ebuild.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 15:00:07 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Flooring Message-ID: <19981020.150613.3438.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-9 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4695 Alex, Amtico's main number is 888-268-4269. The "guru" on the product is Tim Wilson and he has a direct number (800) 559-1126. Tim is very helpful and was quick to send samples. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 16:27:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA22498 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:27:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00266; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:15:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:08:53 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA29397 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:08:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from airmail.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.20.220]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29380 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:08:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from arb.ca.gov ([146.114.11.17]) by airmail.arb.ca.gov (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA1ED0; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:19:06 -0700 Message-ID: <362CF0DB.F0366808@arb.ca.gov> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:21:47 -0700 From: "Thomas J. Phillips" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST , "FUGLER, DON" , "WALDMAN, JED" , "TRAYNOR,GREG" , "LEVIN, HAL" , "LUBLINER, MIKE" , "JAMES, GEORGE" , "PROCTOR, JOHN" , "RIZZUTTO, JOE" Subject: GBlist: FYI, CEC DUCT SEALING STDS. Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A46125494870EF5B1CD87AAB" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4696 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A46125494870EF5B1CD87AAB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit FYI & COMMENT: New, optional standards for residential energy efficiency are being considered by the Calif. Energy Commission that would provide energy budget credits for sealing of ductwork or using an air-retarding wrap. A previous CEC study found that a large percentage of new homes were already experiencing air exchange rates below 0.5 air changes per hour (ach), the Nordic standard, and 0.35 ach, from ASHRAE 62-1989. This revised standard would encourage the construction of even tighter homes. The IAQ impact analysis is found in the Negative Declaration/Initial Statement, http://www.energy.ca.gov/98standards/documents/NEGDECLARE.PDF. Window opening by occupants will be relied upon for sufficient ventilation. Mechanical ventilation is only required for "unusually tight " houses, i.e., those below a tightness level of 3.0 SLA. Neither combustion safety testing nor sealed-combustion furnaces are required. Note that the deadline for comments is November 3. The CEC announcement is attached below. ================. http://www.energy.ca.gov/98standards/notices/98-10-19_notice_acm.html (with links to download proposed standards, manual, and environmental impact analysis/negative declaration) Notice Of Availability Of 15-Day Language 1998 Residential Alternative Calculation Method Approval Manual Rulemaking Proceeding Background In 1997 the California Energy Commission (Commission) adopted revisions to the building energy efficiency standards (Public Resources Code Section 25402). These standards are scheduled to take effect 180 days after publication in the State Building Code. The California Building Standards Commission expects this date will be approximately April 1, 1999. The proposed 1998 Residential Alternative Calculation Method (ACM) Approval Manual prescribes changes to ACMs used in the performance method for showing compliance with the new standards. 15-day language incorporating revisions to the ACM Manual was based on a list of documents (Attachment 1) relied upon by staff. This list includes public comments received at the July 14, 1998 and July 31, 1998 hearings; and written comments provided to the Commission’s rulemaking docket (98-ADM-2). This notice advises the public of the availability of the 15-day language. Adoption Schedule The Commission will consider adoption of final 15-day language for the 1998 Residential ACM Manual at the November 4, 1998, Business Meeting. The public may provide comments on the 15-day language up until that date. Information about public participation at the November 4, 1998 Business Meeting is available through the Commission’s Public Adviser’s Office at (916) 654-4489 or (800) 822-6228. Please contact the Public Adviser at least five days in advance of the meeting if you have a disability and require reasonable accommodations to participate in the meeting. Inquiries from the media should be directed to the Media and Public Communications Office at (916) 654-4989. Availability of 15-Day Language The 15-day language is available for downloading through the Commission’s Internet Web site at http://www.energy.ca.gov/98standards. A hard copy can be obtained by contacting Debbie Friese at (916) 654-4067 or dfriese@energy.state.ca.us. Technical questions should be directed to Donald Kazama at (916) 654-5072 or dkazama@energy.state.ca.us. The 15-day language is available for downloading through the Commission’s Internet Web site at http://www.energy.ca.gov/98standards. A hard copy can be obtained by contacting Debbie Friese at (916) 654-4067 or dfriese@energy.state.ca.us. Technical questions should be directed to Donald Kazama at (916) 654-5072 or dkazama@energy.state.ca.us. -- Thomas J. Phillps CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 916.322.7145/4357 FAX IAQ guidelines: http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm Research summaries: http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm --------------A46125494870EF5B1CD87AAB Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for PHILLIPS, THOMAS J. Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: PHILLIPS, THOMAS J. n: THOMAS J.;PHILLIPS, org: California Air Rources Board, Research Division adr: 2020 L St.;;POB 2815;Sacramento;CA;95812;USA email;internet: tphillip@arb.ca.gov title: Air Pollution Research Specialist tel;work: 916.322.7145 tel;fax: / 4357 note;quoted-printable:IAQ guidelines: http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm=0D=0A= Research summaries: http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------A46125494870EF5B1CD87AAB-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 18:23:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA24464 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:23:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07092; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:08:01 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA06754 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:07:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com (mail.planeta.com [206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA06750 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:07:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000033247 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:16:09 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 98 17:30:05 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: GBlist: [Off Topic] Listservs (was: IAQ) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5570970.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4697 IMSHAPIRO@aol.com writes: >I would appreciate any comments on the IAQ List described in the recent post >(at "Onelist...") . I checked out the web site, but am reluctant to join >because they ask >for permission to share registration information with others. Very good point. That may have been the reason I didn't join immediately (and here I thought I was just being lazy!). You certainly don't want to increase your SPAM intake levels any more than necessary. Listservs are inexpensive, usually costing around $20-25/month, depending upon the host (server operator) and the number and size of posts to the list. (Archiving messages to the web will cost you more, of course.) The vast majority of paid listserv operators would never share registration info... but OneList, being "free" undoubtably has a hook - either advertising on every message, or selling your email address to whomever - usually someone trying to sell something. Though it is sometimes possible to get someone to donate a service for a good cause, this kind of "free lunch" is usually not worth the effort. If you're serious about discussing a topic on a listserv, pay someone a couple of bucks a month to do it right. BC -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 21:23:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA26740 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:23:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15543; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:07:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14668 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:07:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14663 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:06:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id OGGRa17823; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:17:25 +2000 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:17:25 EDT To: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: [Off Topic] Listservs (was: IAQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4698 Bill - Just FYI - there is no "hook" with the OneList hosted IAQ List. This list has proven to be a valuable resource for professionals. The number of IAQ List subscribers varies, but at this point, averages a little over 680 subscribers consisting of highly qualified individuals in IAQ consulting, environmental health, science & research, testing & analysis, engineering, industrial hygiene, medicine & law. There are several building science specialists, Staff from the EPA, FDA, CPSC, TNRCC, DOH, NIH, NIHE, and several private sector environmental & health effects organizations. The list has a number of University & College Professors from MIT, Columbia, Harvard & Purdue (to name a few), as well as some builders and contractors... so it's really evolved into an interesting mix of experienced & knowledgable people from all over the world that are willing to share information with each other. Be assured, there is absolutely no advertising involved or permitted on the list - only a growing group of professionals interested in addressing IAQ concerns & solutions. One more point, it is possible to subscribe anonymously thru the moderator. It's regrettable that derogatory statements have been made in a public forum about the integrity & motives of the IAQ List by individuals who were obviously misinformed. The calipher of subscribers & resulting posts speak for the quality, practical function and value of this forum to those interested in IAQ issues & solutions. Regards, Cathy Flanders IAQ List Manager & Moderator Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq IAQ Listserve (to search archives) http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/iaq In a message dated 98-10-20 18:21:32 EDT, you write: << Listservs are inexpensive, usually costing around $20-25/month, depending upon the host (server operator) and the number and size of posts to the list. (Archiving messages to the web will cost you more, of course.) The vast majority of paid listserv operators would never share registration info... but OneList, being "free" undoubtably has a hook - either advertising on every message, or selling your email address to whomever - usually someone trying to sell something. >> ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 21:23:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA26739 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:23:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15539; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:07:43 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14687 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:07:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14682 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:07:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from flash.net (p68.amax7.dialup.sat1.flash.net [209.30.91.68]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA27392 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 20:18:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <362D3764.98C1F642@flash.net> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 20:22:44 -0500 From: Larry Stivers Organization: Consultis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: GB regs. and incentives References: <6CF0581EC9C1D111B48600805FBEB878016D6E75@pca-ex01.pca.state.mn.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4699 Barnes-Driscoll, Erin wrote: > > Does anyone have information on other states or local goverments that have > > enacted green building or construction recycling regulations, policies or > > incentives? The Minnesota Office of Environmental Assistance is in the > > process of compiling a list and would love your input. > > > > Thanks > Erin Barnes-Driscoll > Minnesota Office of Environmental Assistance > 520 Lafayette Road North > St. Paul, MN 55155-4100 > 612/215-0211 800/657-3843 > FAX - 612/215-0246 > erin.driscoll@moea.state.mn.us > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ Point your browser to http://www.greenbuilder.com/GENERAL/articles/gbp.html for information about the Austin, TX Greenbuilding program. This page (or it's links) should give you a good start in your quest. Good luck, Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Oct 20 22:51:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA27843 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:51:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA19699; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:39:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:35:02 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19295 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:34:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19290 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 22:34:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id VAA0000021892; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:46:26 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981021024916.0072dbd0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 21:49:16 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: termite control Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4700 Remain interested in comments on the following. Would like to see some discussion about termite control with sand from anyone who has had experience with a sand barrier, or any other technique that proved useful. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 21 00:37:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA29529 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 00:37:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA24019; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 00:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Oct 1998 00:19:55 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA23577 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 00:19:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com (mail.planeta.com [206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA23572 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 00:19:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000033321 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 23:28:08 -0500 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 98 23:42:10 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re(2): GBlist: [Off Topic] Listservs (was: IAQ) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5571594.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4701 Rkfabf@aol.com writes: Just FYI - there is no "hook" with the OneList hosted IAQ List. This list has proven to be a valuable resource for professionals.......Be assured, there is absolutely no advertising involved or permitted on the list - only a growing group of professionals interested in addressing IAQ concerns & solutions. It's regrettable that derogatory statements have been made in a public forum about the integrity & motives of the IAQ List by individuals who were obviously misinformed. The calipher of subscribers & resulting posts speak for the quality, practical function and value of this forum to those interested in IAQ issues & solutions. Hi Cathy, Sorry if I made it sound like the IAQ list itself was anything less than the valuable resource that you and others suggest - I had absolutely no intention of slamming the list itself. I apologize if it sounded as if I thought there was anything wrong there. However, I have to admit that my spidey-sense starts tingling when I see something like OneList offering "free" services on the net. Call me cynical, but I find it hard to believe that they are just setting up all these listservs out of the goodness of their hearts. They may still be in the startup phase, where they aren't advertising or otherwise being pests, but I suspect that eventually they'll need to get some money back for their work, one way or another. In the meantime, take advantage of a good thing while it lasts. BC -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 21 08:55:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA03336 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:55:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09772; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:43:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:39:51 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09481 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:39:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09477 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:39:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [207.136.199.110] (pm1a11.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.107]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA02116; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:51:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 08:51:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Pbsustain@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Linoleum Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4702 At 7:20 AM -0400 10/21/98, Pbsustain@aol.com wrote: >This discussion on linoleum sparked an old memory..are there environmental >issues in the manufacturing process? Related to the workers?? I seem to >remember something about that having to do with why it hasn't been >manufactured in this country for some time...I don't remember much more than >that...did you cover that in your article? just wondered... We did not turn up significant problems in the manufacturing process or in the workplace through our research, but I am interested in what others on the list might know about. VOCs are captured in the initial oxydation/polymerication process to very high efficiency, though VOCs are released during the drying. These are smelly VOCs (fatty acids, for example), but not compounds that are known to be carcinogens or otherwise highly dangerous. There is some dust generated, but most of that is apparently captured. I look forward to any comments from others on this issue. Did we miss something? I believe U.S. production of linoleum ceased in 1975 because vinyl (PVC) was less expensive to produce. With a shorter lifespan, vinyl is probably also a more profitable product for manufacturers. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 21 10:32:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05064 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:32:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15431; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:19:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:15:36 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15055 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:15:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.144.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15051 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:15:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from epistle.umich.edu (pm349-18.dialip.mich.net [207.75.184.28]) by runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.3) with SMTP id KAA08022 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:27:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810211427.KAA08022@runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:27:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: epistle@e.imap.itd.umich.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: epistle@umich.edu (Mark Stranahan) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: GBlist feline flash points Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4703 > > >Norbert Senf wrote: > >> I've clocked our cat at 210 F surface temperature lying in front >> of the fireplace. > Jon replied: >please be careful!! according to the february issue of "the journal of >incendiary incidents" the combustion point of a typical housecat (in the report a valuable bluepoint siamese named ferdy) is 211 F. many hitherto inexplicable >housefires may be traced to dozing pets and toasty hearths. it happens more >often than you think! Is this an explosive failure or simple combustion? Is this a catalytic reaction? Mark >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >> Environmental Building News and Oikos >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >> ______________________________________________________________________ > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 21 10:37:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05189 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:37:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15968; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:25:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:21:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15640 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:21:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15636 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:21:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.133]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 2133300 ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 07:43:37 -0800 Message-ID: <362DF01E.4A289D62@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 07:30:55 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Wilson CC: Pbsustain@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Linoleum References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4704 Asbestos fibre was once used in the manufacture of some linoleums and perhaps this was the issue. I know it is an issue in renovations and demolition of buildings with old tile. John Alex Wilson wrote: > At 7:20 AM -0400 10/21/98, Pbsustain@aol.com wrote: > >This discussion on linoleum sparked an old memory..are there environmental > >issues in the manufacturing process? Related to the workers?? I seem to > >remember something about that having to do with why it hasn't been > >manufactured in this country for some time...I don't remember much more than > >that...did you cover that in your article? just wondered... > > We did not turn up significant problems in the manufacturing process or in > the workplace through our research, but I am interested in what others on > the list might know about. VOCs are captured in the initial > oxydation/polymerication process to very high efficiency, though VOCs are > released during the drying. These are smelly VOCs (fatty acids, for > example), but not compounds that are known to be carcinogens or otherwise > highly dangerous. There is some dust generated, but most of that is > apparently captured. I look forward to any comments from others on this > issue. Did we miss something? > > I believe U.S. production of linoleum ceased in 1975 because vinyl (PVC) > was less expensive to produce. With a shorter lifespan, vinyl is probably > also a more profitable product for manufacturers. > > Alex Wilson, Editor > Environmental Building News > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 21 10:40:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05231 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:40:48 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16271; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:28:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:24:58 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15909 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:24:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15901 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:24:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.133]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 2134600 ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 07:46:52 -0800 Message-ID: <362DF0DE.FE86C9A5@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 07:34:06 -0700 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Stranahan CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: GBlist feline flash points References: <199810211427.KAA08022@runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4705 Our cat generally works as a fuel indicator, gradually moving closer and often ending up under the stove - never considered the dangers of her work. John Mark Stranahan wrote: > > > > > >Norbert Senf wrote: > > > >> I've clocked our cat at 210 F surface temperature lying in front > >> of the fireplace. > > > Jon replied: > >please be careful!! according to the february issue of "the journal of > >incendiary incidents" the combustion point of a typical housecat (in the > report a valuable bluepoint siamese named ferdy) is 211 F. many hitherto > inexplicable > >housefires may be traced to dozing pets and toasty hearths. it happens more > >often than you think! > > Is this an explosive failure or simple combustion? Is this a catalytic reaction? > > Mark > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >> Environmental Building News and Oikos > >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 21 13:13:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA08284 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:13:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26913; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:00:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:57:08 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26361 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26353 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 12:56:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id KAA04846 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 10:08:36 -0700 Message-ID: Date: 21 Oct 1998 09:47:01 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: Cat Combustion To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA26358 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4706 One of the researchers in Reiner's great docomentary SPINAL TAP discussed cases of spontaneous combustion of human beings, specifically drummers. Perhaps managers should be equipped at concerts with portable temperature scanners, to learn when drummers are nearing the danger level, which I believe is somewhat lower than a cat's. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 21 18:41:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA14489 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:41:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21188; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:28:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:24:41 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA20808 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:24:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu (root@xipe-totec.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20804 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:24:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from angle.cacr.caltech.edu (angle.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.72]) by mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA00474 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810212236.PAA00474@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> X-Sender: mac@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 15:30:53 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Barbara Lamprecht Subject: GBlist: Re: Feline Flash Points Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4707 We have discovered that in our family, what is really important to the cat is whether you are alive. If you are at 98.6 or so, and it is winter, cats pragmatically suss out a convenient body position to exploit that warmth. Talk about radiant heating! We know it's summer when the cats disappear: the `problem' is the same: you are alive, and therefore become an unpleasant radiant heat source .... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 22 05:35:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA21727 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 05:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA17716; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 05:23:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Oct 1998 05:19:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA17234 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 05:19:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA17226 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 05:19:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id EAA29121; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 04:30:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from vna-va16-39.ix.netcom.com(207.223.179.167) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma029112; Thu Oct 22 04:30:02 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981022052759.00734da4@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 05:28:01 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Mirror Seal/info Cc: tlentz@freespace.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4708 Relay to GB-List Please respond to: ------------------------------------------- >Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 22:44:50 -0400 >From: Tanya or David >Subject: MirrorSeal: seeking > >Hello, >I'm writing from Ontario. I'm trying to find a roofing product called >MirrorSeal. I used Alta Vista as the search engine and it came up with >this "greenbuilding list archive", within which was your email address. If >you have heard of this product or if you know somebody who might know about >it, would you please write me back? >Thanks very much, >Sincerely, >Tanya and David Nixon ------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 22 07:54:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA22379 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:54:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA21207; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:42:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:38:44 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA20944 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:38:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from server.totalnetnh.net (server.totalnetnh.net [216.64.14.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA20940 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:38:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [216.64.14.40] (s10.terminal1.totalnetnh.net [216.64.14.40]) by server.totalnetnh.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA10265 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:50:27 -0400 Message-Id: <199810221150.HAA10265@server.totalnetnh.net> Subject: GBlist: Re: Feline flash points Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:50:22 -0400 x-sender: wsmith@server.totalnetnh.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bill Smith To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4709 With all due respect to the previously cited researchers on this subject, I felt that perhaps a control study was called for. After some initial calibration problems and associated experimental problems I believe I have an accurate temperature sensor for the target range. Now, where is that other cat?....... Also have an anecdotal report from my wife (supported by various reliable inlaws) of a cat who would sleep IN the fireplace between the fire and the back wall. No temperature data available. Bill Smith williammsmith@usa.net Concord NH USA Typo's, misspellings and punctuation errors by the cat in my lap ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 22 09:01:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22958 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:01:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA27397; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:47:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:43:54 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA25200 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA25173 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:43:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1VOJa02329 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:53:10 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8f184ca1.362f2ab6@aol.com> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 08:53:10 EDT To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: GBlist feline flash points Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4710 In a message dated 10/22/98 2:13:29 AM, you wrote: >Is this an explosive failure or simple combustion? Is this a catalytic reaction? > >Mark My experience has not been combustion but liquification of the feline in question. We have had to "siphon off" the cat from beneath the wood stove on occasion. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Inc. Contractors, Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 22 10:51:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25084 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06465; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:39:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:34:20 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06011 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:34:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06007 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:34:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from eliel (2Cust6.tnt9.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.129.6]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA12404 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810221445.HAA12404@scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Sender: greenbergman@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:45:58 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: David Bergman Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: GBlist feline flash points Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4711 At 08:53 AM 10/22/98 -0400, you wrote: > >My experience has not been combustion but liquification of the feline in >question. We have had to "siphon off" the cat from beneath the wood stove on >occasion. >Rick Darfler That resulting liquid, I believe, is called catatonic. But only in its inert state. Sorry. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 22 11:40:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26023 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:40:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10012; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:28:26 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:24:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09517 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:24:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09497; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:24:00 -0400 (EDT) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ674347; Thu, 22 Oct 98 09:34:34 -0600 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA72470; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:34:40 -0600 Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:34:39 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver , Orian Low , Rob McCormack Subject: GBlist: call for PARTNERS re: demonstration urban ECO-VILLAGE Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4712 Do you know of any organization (with contact name and phone number) that may be interested in, benefit from, or supporting/participate in, the gradual development of an small urban self-sufficient "Eco-Village" based on: 1) occupant health 8) renewable/alternative/free energy 2) environmental stewardship 9) appropriate technologies 3) resource/energy/water conservation 10) natural sewage methods 4) alternative construction methods 11) alternative transportation systems, 5) healthy materials 12) indigenous resources 6) low embodied energy 13) high recycled content 7) user-participation 14) handicapped access For details please see below. Other recommendations or useful comments could be sent to me privately (off-list). Thank you for considering this request. ****************************************************************************** Demonstration ECO-VILLAGE: Summary Statement (short form) ****************************************************************************** 1.0 INTRODUCTION (Background): After the successful completion of 3 demonstration projects since 1976, with about 100,000 total visitors, the time is ripe to take advantage of our practical experience, industry contacts, past projects and co-operative partnerships to initiate the process to build a small self-sufficient Eco-Village of 50-60 housing units. The initial work (R&D) described below, would follow the same format and process used for the work that began in 1990 with research and development, and eventually in 1993-4 lead to the construction (by another firm) of the Alberta Sustainable Home/Office demonstration project that has now been visited by about 30,000 visitors,including 7,000 students. It continues to be a public resource and focus for: students, government, industry and media for the learning and advocacy of sustainable housing. The last 2 articles appeared in recent editions of Environmental Building News and Environmental Design & Construction.The CONCEPTS and FEATURES as described below, have already been implemented by the proponents on various individual projects during the last 23 years, but never on a community scale. The economies of scale would guarantee more significant reductions of energy and environmenta impact, greater return on investment and optimal value of products, concepts and effort. 2.0. CONCEPT/VISION STATEMENT/STARTING POINT: The eventual goal of this project is the construction of a self-sufficient urban village in the City of Calgary that is based on principles of sustainable development. This demonstration project would include housing units and infrastructure, as a working model of a sustainable community. All housing units would be designed and built to be as environmentally-sound on the inside and outside as feasible. However, this development would be a multi-purpose environment to include working displays of:** occupant health, environmental stewardship, resource/energy/water efficiency, alternative construction, healthy materials/methods, renewable/alternative energy, appropriate technologies, natural sewage methods, alternative transportation systems, cottage industries, green business incubators, research facilities, and hands-on workshops/seminars.** Within this infrastructure, new models of green economics and conserver life-styles would be encouraged. The closest model to this idea is the "Center for Appropriate Technology" in Wales started in 1976. In this way we hope to initiate a generic process for the planning, design, and eventual construction and occupancy of other eco-villages elsewhere, each of which could reduce the fossil fuel/water/resource use and GreenHouse Gas emissions by at least 75% (compared to standard housing), as a practical response to surpass our Kyoto commitments. As previous projects have already shown, such a project can combine the best ideas of yesterday, the reality of today and technology of the future. 3.0 some potential MAIN FEATURES of this demonstration Eco-Village - strawbale housin - biocrete wall construction - "eco-stud" wall construction - prefab (stress skinned) construction - earth sheltered construction - rammed earth construction - soil cement floors, walkways - passive solar space heating - active solar hot water heating - photovoltaics - windmills for green clean electricity - grid intertie (export of electricity) - other forms of renewable/free energy - geothermal heat pumps - solar ovens - renewable power for construction - waterless toilets for construction - alternative transportation methods - alternative fuels - high energy efficient appliances - high performance windows - maximum energy conservation - airtight construction for - recycled content for materials - low embodied energy - tradable emissions - environmental credits - water conservation techniques - rainwater collection, storage & use - waterless toilets - ultra low flush toilets - on-site greywater treatment & reuse - greywater heat exchangers - indoor air quality - natural materials - user participation (owner-builder) - industry/association partnerships - permaculture/sustainable agriculture - urban farming - aquaculture/fish ponds - skating rinks - work-at-home centers - shared/common facilities - shelter belts/forest groves/wood lots - minimum footprint for buildings - carbon sinks - net CO2 accounting 3.0. SCOPE OF WORK (Phase One: Start-Up R&D): The initial work would consist of: 1) the study of PRECEDENTS (literature review & site visits), 2) establishing generic PATTERN LANGUAGE (repetitive basic concepts), 3) preparation of generic DRAWINGS of the master plan and preliminary architectural drawings of housing types, 4) conducting hands-on workshops/discussion groups/seminars/tours 5) Report: findings, calculations, drawings, conclusions, next steps ******************************************************************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 22 11:59:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26354 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11888; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:47:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:43:24 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA11323 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:43:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11292; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 11:43:02 -0400 (EDT) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ185676; Thu, 22 Oct 98 09:53:37 -0600 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA21824; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:53:39 -0600 Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:53:38 -0600 (MDT) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: call for PARTNERS re: demonstration urban ECO-VILLAGE Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4713 Do you know of any organization (with contact name and phone number) that may be interested in, benefit from, or supporting/participate in, the gradual development of an small urban self-sufficient "Eco-Village" based on: 1) occupant health 8) renewable/alternative/free energy 2) environmental stewardship 9) appropriate technologies 3) resource/energy/water conservation 10) natural sewage methods 4) alternative construction methods 11) alternative transportation systems, 5) healthy materials 12) indigenous resources 6) low embodied energy 13) high recycled content 7) user-participation 14) handicapped access For details please see below. Other recommendations or useful comments could be sent to me privately (off-list). Thank you for considering this request. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office - A.C.E.-Alternative & Conservation Energies-Inc., - Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671, e-mail: - Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm ****************************************************************************** Demonstration ECO-VILLAGE: Summary Statement (short form) ****************************************************************************** 1.0 INTRODUCTION (Background): After the successful completion of 3 demonstration projects since 1976, with about 100,000 total visitors, the time is ripe to take advantage of our practical experience, industry contacts, past projects and co-operative partnerships to initiate the process to build a small self-sufficient Eco-Village of 50-60 housing units. The initial work (R&D) described below, would follow the same format and process used for the work that began in 1990 with research and development, and eventually in 1993-4 lead to the construction (by another firm) of the Alberta Sustainable Home/Office demonstration project that has now been visited by about 30,000 visitors,including 7,000 students. It continues to be a public resource and focus for: students, government, industry and media for the learning and advocacy of sustainable housing. The last 2 articles appeared in recent editions of Environmental Building News and Environmental Design & Construction.The CONCEPTS and FEATURES as described below, have already been implemented by the proponents on various individual projects during the last 23 years, but never on a community scale. The economies of scale would guarantee more significant reductions of energy and environmenta impact, greater return on investment and optimal value of products, concepts and effort. 2.0. CONCEPT/VISION STATEMENT/STARTING POINT: The eventual goal of this project is the construction of a self-sufficient urban village in the City of Calgary that is based on principles of sustainable development. This demonstration project would include housing units and infrastructure, as a working model of a sustainable community. All housing units would be designed and built to be as environmentally-sound on the inside and outside as feasible. However, this development would be a multi-purpose environment to include working displays of:** occupant health, environmental stewardship, resource/energy/water efficiency, alternative construction, healthy materials/methods, renewable/alternative energy, appropriate technologies, natural sewage methods, alternative transportation systems, cottage industries, green business incubators, research facilities, and hands-on workshops/seminars.** Within this infrastructure, new models of green economics and conserver life-styles would be encouraged. The closest model to this idea is the "Center for Appropriate Technology" in Wales started in 1976. In this way we hope to initiate a generic process for the planning, design, and eventual construction and occupancy of other eco-villages elsewhere, each of which could reduce the fossil fuel/water/resource use and GreenHouse Gas emissions by at least 75% (compared to standard housing), as a practical response to surpass our Kyoto commitments. As previous projects have already shown, such a project can combine the best ideas of yesterday, the reality of today and technology of the future. 3.0 some potential MAIN FEATURES of this demonstration Eco-Village - strawbale housin - biocrete wall construction - "eco-stud" wall construction - prefab (stress skinned) construction - earth sheltered construction - rammed earth construction - soil cement floors, walkways - passive solar space heating - active solar hot water heating - photovoltaics - windmills for green clean electricity - grid intertie (export of electricity) - other forms of renewable/free energy - geothermal heat pumps - solar ovens - renewable power for construction - waterless toilets for construction - alternative transportation methods - alternative fuels - high energy efficient appliances - high performance windows - maximum energy conservation - airtight construction for - recycled content for materials - low embodied energy - tradable emissions - environmental credits - water conservation techniques - rainwater collection, storage & use - waterless toilets - ultra low flush toilets - on-site greywater treatment & reuse - greywater heat exchangers - indoor air quality - natural materials - user participation (owner-builder) - industry/association partnerships - permaculture/sustainable agriculture - urban farming - aquaculture/fish ponds - skating rinks - work-at-home centers - shared/common facilities - shelter belts/forest groves/wood lots - minimum footprint for buildings - carbon sinks - net CO2 accounting 3.0. SCOPE OF WORK (Phase One: Start-Up R&D): The initial work would consist of: 1) the study of PRECEDENTS (literature review & site visits), 2) establishing generic PATTERN LANGUAGE (repetitive basic concepts), 3) preparation of generic DRAWINGS of the master plan and preliminary architectural drawings of housing types, 4) conducting hands-on workshops/discussion groups/seminars/tours 5) Report: findings, calculations, drawings, conclusions, next steps ******************************************************************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 22 12:42:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27354 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:41:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14823; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:25:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14307 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:25:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vms3.isc.rit.edu (vms3.isc.rit.edu [129.21.3.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14303 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:25:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ritvax.isc.rit.edu by ritvax.isc.rit.edu (PMDF V5.1-12 #21575) id <01J39MZFRVGGCG968H@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:37:11 EDT Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 12:36:48 -0400 (EDT) From: X Subject: GBlist: a minor complaint To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <01J39S9CM53ACG968H@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4714 Please don't resend entire messages, just a snippet if you need to quote. Perhaps it is not my place to be sending this, but it is too much. Thank you, Antonio ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 22 16:27:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA01717 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:27:01 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09051; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:14:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:10:47 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA08675 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:10:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08666; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:10:32 -0400 (EDT) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 0MHRa22759; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:21:14 EDT To: wsmith@totalnetnh.net, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Feline flash points Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4715 In a message dated 10/22/98 7:51:44 AM, wsmith@totalnetnh.net wrote: <> Would your wife's family possibly have originated from Salem Massachusetts? For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 23 14:47:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18973 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07101; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:34:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:28:49 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA06603 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:28:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06599 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:28:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust37.tnt2.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.31.37]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id NAA17096 for ; Fri, 23 Oct 1998 13:40:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3630CE6F.7A25@gte.net> Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 14:43:59 -0400 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Termites Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4716 I came across this UC Davis site today when doing a search and thought those engaged in the termite discussion might find it useful. One section discusses sand barriers. http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7415.html#table I didn't quite find the answer to my question though. Was white pine found in northern Florida one hundred years ago? I recently toured the Tallahassee area with my daughter's fourth grade class and saw a homestead with a 100 year old house free of termite damage. I think the guide said it was built of white pine that has a high resin content, making it termite and water resistant. If you can confirm, please do so. I'm finishing up my poem about the trip. Thanks. Cindy Pollock Shea ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 24 17:38:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA02710 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:38:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25669; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:06:21 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24877 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24856; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:05:50 -0400 (EDT) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id DJSOa19214; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:16:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <80fd8f0b.363243bb@aol.com> Date: Sat, 24 Oct 1998 17:16:43 EDT To: mcshea1@GTE.net, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Termites Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4717 In a message dated 10/23/98 2:42:52 PM, mcshea1@gte.net wrote: <> Hi Cindy: To my knowledge, Pinus strobus, commonly called white pine, has not been native to Florida in the current interglacial, if ever. The furtherst south I've seen it on the east coast is Northern Florida. However there may be/have been a species that was locally called white pine. I think a range that extends from the boundary of Northern Ontario to Northern Georgia is enough for any tree, though red maple (A rubrum) beats it, both north and south where it extends to the Tampa area in Florida. Being from New England, I am very sensitive to recognizing trees from Home , though Florida is home (little h) for me now, too, and probably until I return the carbon and water molecules I've borrowed from the EArth. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Oct 24 18:34:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA03178 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:34:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA27284; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:22:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:14:31 -0400 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA26931 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:14:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26926 for ; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 18:14:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from ivnet.net (ip04.ivnet.net [206.101.73.164]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13135; Sat, 24 Oct 1998 14:16:34 -0700 Message-ID: <35FF3675.99D95B0C@ivnet.net> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 1998 20:54:29 -0700 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Samantha L McDonald CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Blist: help References: <19980914.202350.3494.0.goldeneagle1@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4718 Samantha L McDonald wrote: > > would any of you be aware of a process of "painting" and or plaster work > that imitates marble- What you are looking for is called a "faux finish." (French for false finish.) Techniques for accomplishing the marble effect have been around for a long time, and there are many excellent books on the subject. Sorry not to have any titles handy. Libraries should carry them. Bruce Donelson A better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 26 08:30:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA09064 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:30:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10755; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:15:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:53:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA09957 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:52:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com ([206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA09920 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 07:51:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA8-p36.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.228]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA25960 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:02:28 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sA8-p36.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.228] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:02:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36347275.ABCF6D6A@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 08:00:37 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: [Fwd: Dead Media Announcement] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------45D7DF112C6AB32A9DE830B2" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4719 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------45D7DF112C6AB32A9DE830B2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some of you might want to check the Viridian list out, I haven't had a chance to look yet, so this isn't a recommendation. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY --------------45D7DF112C6AB32A9DE830B2 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from fringeware.com (FringeWare.COM [207.170.80.10]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id SAA15631 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:05:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: FringeWare.COM [207.170.80.10] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 18:05:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: from fringeware.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fringeware.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA23210; Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:07:39 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 13:07:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199810211807.NAA23210@fringeware.com> To: Dead Media List From: Bruce Sterling Reply-To: Errors-To: Subject: Dead Media Announcement From: bruces@well.com (Bruce Sterling) Bruce Sterling Establishes "Viridian List" If you watch the news, you may have noticed that we Texans have had a summer of unprecedent heat and drought, followed by an autumn of unprecedented floods. I have therefore started a new, second mailing list, which will center around 21st century Green design issues. The new "Viridian Mailing List" seeks a historical understanding of technology, society, and their future trends, centering around the Greenhouse Effect. Unlike Dead Media, which has been very calm and scholarly, this Viridian list will probably be rather strident and opinionated. If you would like to join the Viridian List, send me email. I will send you the 6,633-word text of my recent San Francisco lecture, in which I vent some of my strong feelings on this subject. Bruce Sterling (bruces@well.com) --------------45D7DF112C6AB32A9DE830B2-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 26 17:26:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA19496 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:26:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA01332; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:13:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:09:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA27314 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 16:50:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@[204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27301 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 16:49:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.15] (iplink15.crocker.com [205.246.4.15]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA04290 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 16:59:59 -0500 X-Sender: brucecol@crocker.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 17:03:20 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Glass Manufacturers using Heat Mirror Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4720 We've been seeking out manufacturers of custom glass units (with Heat Mirror films and Argon Fills) to be used in some site built glazing. It appears that UltraGlass' manufacturing capacity is now entirely utilized in house so we've contacted Southwall to locate other manufacturers. We were disappointed to learn that the nearest manufacturers weren't at all local to the project locations. So my questions are these: 1) Does anyone know of manufacturers near the NY/CT/MA area that produce Heat Mirror glazing units. 2) Can anyone relay any experience (+ or -) with: HGP Industries (Rock Hill, SC), Capital Aluminum & Glass (Bellvue, OH) or ARCON Canada Ltd. (Montreal, Canada) Thanks, in advance, for your help. Regards, John Boehs Bruce Coldham Architects Amherst, MA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Oct 26 22:23:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA23379 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:23:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16100; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:10:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:06:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15608 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:06:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from foo.icanect.net (foo.icanect.net [208.202.14.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15604 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:06:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from icanect.net (96.p1.Ascend17.MIA.Icanect.Net [206.142.173.224]) by foo.icanect.net (8.8.8/ICA3.2) with ESMTP id WAA10371 for ; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:17:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <363566CC.34AC5177@icanect.net> Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 22:23:08 -0800 From: Kelly Carpenter X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Green Building for the subtropics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4721 New subscriber here. After much research, I am seeking y'alls assistance. I want to build a green house (residential unit) in Palm Beach County Florida. I want to build it for about $100,000 including land. I seek assistance on finding an appropriate building technology for this climate and then an appropriate builder (or group I can learn from). As a latecomer, maybe all this information is already posted somewhere, but I sure couldn't find it. Thanks. Kelly Carpenter ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 28 08:49:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA16533 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:49:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09167; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:37:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:31:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA08832 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:31:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA08828 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 08:31:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id HAA0000007517; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 07:42:28 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981028134534.0068fb04@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 07:45:34 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Superior Wall System Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4722 There is new product out there called Superior Wall System, essentially a pre-cast concrete wall (and foundation system) with R 5 foam integral to the concrete, with studs attached that will allow R 19 batts or higher if blown in, windows cut out, brought to site and errected by knowledgable crew, kind of like the SIP system. No idea of the cost yet, but am interested if anyone out there knows about it, has used it etc.? One of our temporarily off line members has built one house and really likes the system; says he would do one for himself. Comments please. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 28 09:38:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17637 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:38:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12205; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:25:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:22:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11899 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:21:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11895 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:21:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from Alisa (usr0a31.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.31]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA18827; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:33:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981028093433.00695f88@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:34:33 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Danny Sagan Subject: GBlist: Plastic Lumber Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4723 Greetings Greenbuilders, I am looking for plastic lumber in Bright colors. There was a company in Pennsylvania, called Phoenix recycled PLastics, and I have some samples I got a few years ago but they are no longer at the numbers I have.Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank You in advance. Danny Sagan, Randolph Ctr, VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 28 09:51:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17770 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:51:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12951; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:34:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12575 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:34:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12570 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:34:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from Alisa (usr0a31.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.31]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA23464; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:46:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981028094701.0071c944@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:47:01 -0500 To: Kelly Carpenter , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building for the subtropics In-Reply-To: <363566CC.34AC5177@icanect.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4724 >After much research, I am seeking y'alls assistance. I want to build a >green house (residential unit) in Palm Beach County Florida. I want to >build it for about $100,000 including land. I seek assistance on >finding an appropriate building technology for this climate and then an >appropriate builder (or group I can learn from). > >As a latecomer, maybe all this information is already posted somewhere, >but I sure couldn't find it. > >Thanks. > >Kelly Carpenter Kelly, Joe Lstiburek of Building Science Corporation, 70 Main St, Westford Ma , 01886 tel.978-589-5100, has published a very helpful group of books on building methods titled:Builder's Guide.They are written for a specific climate and you want the one written for a Hot-Humid climate. Good Luck. Danny Sagan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 28 10:07:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice2.crest.org [208.202.27.129]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA18043 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:07:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13770; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:54:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:51:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13469 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:51:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13465 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:51:07 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id EMVQa02083; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:01:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7981821a.363731d9@aol.com> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:01:45 EST To: dsagan@sover.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Plastic Lumber Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 214 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4725 Eastern companies worth contacting could include: PolyWood (NJ) 800-915-0043 Trimax (NY) 516-471-7777 Eaglebrook (IL) 312-491-2500 www.eaglebrook.com Obex(CT)-Celeste Johnson-203-975-9094 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 28 13:18:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA21532 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:18:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05456; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:05:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:01:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05006 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:01:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04995 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:01:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DSNTN6UV; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:13:05 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 13:16:01 -0800 Subject: GBlist: appliances Message-ID: <19981028.131602.9678.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6,8-16 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4726 Hi, Still working on the Colorado project. Just got off the phone with the kitchen planer. Kitchens are not my forte, but he wants suggestions as to most environmental. Have already spec'd Maytag Neptune for laundry and given options for fridge and diswasher. Does anyone have latest figures or suggestions for 1. cooktop, 2. ovens (built in), 3. dishwasher.? Have seen good things on Frigidaire but no evaluations. Am recommending stainless sink and Moen spray faucet. Main considerations are energy efficient, water saving and non-toxic. Thanks for any input. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinterior.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 28 15:58:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA24703 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:58:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13572; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:46:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:42:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13196 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:41:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx3.boston.juno.com (mx3.boston.juno.com [207.205.100.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13191 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 15:41:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by mx3.boston.juno.com (8.8.6.Beta0/8.8.6.Beta0/2.0.kim) with ESMTP id KAAAA13936 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:25:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DSNHRWWL; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:19:50 EST To: dsagan@sover.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:22:08 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Plastic Lumber Message-ID: <19981028.102249.9678.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19981028093433.00695f88@sover.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-31 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4727 Danny, I just got the latest copy of the Pennsylvania Resources Council 1998 Buyers Guide to Recycled Products, in which we are listed. The current listing for Phoenix Recycled Plastics is :225 Washington Street, Conshohocken, PA 19428, (610) 940-1590, contact person Cynthis Kravitz, VP. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com On Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:34:33 -0500 Danny Sagan writes: >Greetings Greenbuilders, >I am looking for plastic lumber in Bright colors. There was a company >in >Pennsylvania, called Phoenix recycled PLastics, and I have some >samples I >got a few years ago but they are no longer at the numbers I have.Any >suggestions would be appreciated. >Thank You in advance. >Danny Sagan, >Randolph Ctr, VT > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 28 17:25:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA26884 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 17:25:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA17542; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 17:13:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Oct 1998 17:09:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA17201 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 17:09:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17196 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 17:09:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.6] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:26:48 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: appliances Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 14:22:44 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1302537686-2680384@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4728 Beverly You may be familiar with a great book on kitchen design called The Smart Kitchen by David Goldbeck. You can find it in all the usual place and we sell it through our online catalog . Lots of good ideas for kitchens. Bruce >Hi, > >Still working on the Colorado project. Just got off the phone with the >kitchen planer. Kitchens are not my forte, but he wants suggestions as >to most environmental. Have already spec'd Maytag Neptune for laundry >and given options for fridge and diswasher. Does anyone have latest >figures or suggestions for 1. cooktop, 2. ovens >(built in), 3. dishwasher.? Have seen good things on Frigidaire but no >evaluations. Am recommending stainless sink and Moen spray faucet. > Main considerations are energy efficient, water saving and non-toxic. > >Thanks for any input. > >Beverly Weiter >Environs Interiors >Boca Raton, FL >www.environsinterior.com >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 28 21:56:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA02160 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:56:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29232; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:43:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:39:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA28931 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:39:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from softhome.net (qmailr@charleston.SoftHome.net [204.144.231.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA28927 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:39:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 30212 invoked by uid 417); 29 Oct 1998 00:59:32 -0000 Received: from libdell96-18.uoregon.edu (HELO cataloging.uoregon.edu) (128.223.85.38) by smtp.softhome.net with SMTP; 29 Oct 1998 00:59:32 -0000 Message-ID: <011b01be02d4$fd73ce60$2655df80@cataloging.uoregon.edu> From: "Jon Hoyt" To: "Greenbuilding" Subject: GBlist: Gas fireplace inserts Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 16:42:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id VAA28928 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4729 We just moved into a new house that is heated by electric baseboard heat. We'd like to replace it with something more efficient and comfortable, at least in the main living area (combination kitchen/dining/living room). There is an existing fireplace, so we're thinking of installing a gas fireplace insert. Are these efficient sources of heat? Are there certain brands or types that are better then others? Do they produce radiant heat or is there usually a blower for hot air? Any answers to the above questions will be appreciated, as will any alternative ideas on how to heat the space. Thanks, Jon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 28 22:05:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA02263 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:05:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29871; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:52:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:49:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA29485 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:49:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA29478 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 21:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-17-88.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.131.88]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA11775; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:01:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:04:24 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE02BE.EC6D9940.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'David F. Lambertson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Superior Wall System Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:02:46 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4730 As far as I know the Superior system begain in Pennsylvannia and has had some success -- the 10000th basement was recently installed. The system should perform well, although being precast does bring its challenges. I know of one person who has built with it (and I saw the basement go in and have inspected it since) and have spoken to others who have installed several. Basically it is a decent system although, in Ontario terms, quite expensive. Pros and cons?Its R-value is OK, certainly suffiicent for most home basments (remember the concrete studs act as thermal bridges through the batt, but the protected R5 insulation deals with that), it is strong enough, and pretty termote resistant (depends on the foam details). The only concern is the joints in the precast that have to be sealed with caulking. I would always use a drainage layer. It is does use somewhat less concrete than a full basement too. All in all, a decent system if the price is right and the company can coordinate the precast part of things. On Wednesday, October 28, 1998 8:46 AM, David F. Lambertson [SMTP:dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu] wrote: > There is new product out there called Superior Wall System, essentially a ...... > would do one for himself. Comments please. Sacie Lambertson ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 28 22:33:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA02539 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:33:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01754; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:21:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:17:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01443 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:17:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01439 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:17:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.165] (rkd37.acadia.net [205.217.217.165]) by p2.acadia.net (8.9.1/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA07178 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:29:36 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:28:51 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: appliances Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4731 Hi Beverly, For dishwashers, we can recommend the Asko and Bosch lines as durable, quiet and very efficient. We have also had good luck with Kitchenaid, but the Asko and Bosch are several notches above. There's an overall better energy efficiency with gas cooktops than electric (and many people prefer to cook on them) but there are also indoor air quality problems with gas, so many "healthy building" advocates prefer electric. Halogen burners are more efficient than resistance-coil ones, and halogens give close to the same temperature control as gas. Convection ovens and microwaves are more energy efficient than conventional gas or electric ovens. Convection ovens use forced hot air to cook the food, and many chefs prefer them to standard ovens. Hope this helps. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Oct 28 23:35:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03266 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:35:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04244; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:22:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:19:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA03996 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:19:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA03992 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:19:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.45]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 5559000 ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 20:48:00 -0800 Message-ID: <3637EEFA.C326A42B@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 20:28:42 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Beverly A. Weiter" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: appliances References: <19981028.131602.9678.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4732 I can contribute a few comments on toxicity that may help with specifications. Fixtures that contain brass still contain lead (this extends to shutoffs as well as the fixtures themselves). Their has been little conversation about outgassing of new appliances. Many similar to all electronic components, contain quite a mix of materials that in initial use and outgassing are quite toxic. I'm curious how european standards might differ than north american. This is not a small problem and can be a point of sensitization for many. John Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > Hi, > > Still working on the Colorado project. Just got off the phone with the > kitchen planer. Kitchens are not my forte, but he wants suggestions as > to most environmental. Have already spec'd Maytag Neptune for laundry > and given options for fridge and diswasher. Does anyone have latest > figures or suggestions for 1. cooktop, 2. ovens > (built in), 3. dishwasher.? Have seen good things on Frigidaire but no > evaluations. Am recommending stainless sink and Moen spray faucet. > Main considerations are energy efficient, water saving and non-toxic. > > Thanks for any input. > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > Boca Raton, FL > www.environsinterior.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 29 00:10:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA03889 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 00:10:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA06112; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:58:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:54:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA05804 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:54:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.monumental.com (mail1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05799 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:54:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by mail1.monumental.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA29569; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 00:01:19 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:01:25 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: re: appliances Cc: dan.castello@notes.frigidaire.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4733 981028 Beverly, I just bought a Sears/Frigidaire Gallery washer/dryer pair (39012-washer/49012-dryer). Although you probably won't duplicate the $700 I paid for these scratch n dent victims, they are good performers at any price. I believe the maytag neptune is OVERPRICED, and you should read the July 98(?) Consumer Reports article that praised Frigidaire and panned the Neptune washer. And one more thing... When I wrote to Maytag from their www site, a dufus responded. Over several mail exchange attempts, I became irritated at her unwillingness to answer questions in a timely or straightforward manner. On the other hand, Frigidaire was a breath of fresh air. Dan Castalano (not just Dan) responded promptly and helpfully to every question. Frigidaire also has a toll free # just for Gallery owners. Sears recently raised prices on their versions to something around $1300, but one local Gibson dealer sells its pair for $950. Miele is fancier with its water heater and other geegaws, but that hack is really high--$1750 here for just the washer! And the local distrib is trying to go the fair trade route, leaning on dealers to hold the line (didn't somebody just pay a big fine for that?). Look at the new Bosch, but compare carefully to Frigidaire. Make sure those extra hundreds are going somewhere. If you want on-equipment hot water, add a tankless HWH, and pocket the difference. Use an X-10 appliance module to turn the washer on hours later (delay start), and pocket the difference. And these damn things just don't use water ;->. Good luck! jh MEMO-Dan, see the copy of Beverly's mail I am forwarding to you. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 29 02:19:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA05276 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 02:19:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA10485; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 02:06:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Oct 1998 02:02:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA09985 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 02:02:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA09974 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 02:02:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (usr46.cwo.com [207.173.173.56]) by mail.cwo.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA29390 for ; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 22:56:44 -0800 Message-Id: <199810290656.WAA29390@mail.cwo.com> Reply-To: From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Strawbale R-Values: ORNL tests?? Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 23:15:51 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4734 Tav Commins and I prepared a report for the California energy Commission which summarized the results of five tests: McCabe's, Sandia Lab's, Oak Ridge's 1996 test, our 1997 test [CEC/ATI Fresno], and Oak Ridge's 1998 test. The Commission adopted our recommendation for an allowable R-value (for purposes of California' code compliance) of R-30 for three string (nominal 22" bales). Oak Ridge's results support a value of ~R-33 for such bales, but the Commission needs to be understandably conservative. The report is supposed to be ready. I no longer work at the Commission so I cannot say for sure if it is. If it ISN'T, then I request that EVERYONE of you are interested in seeing it, give a call to Valerie Hall (office manager) and Tav Commins, to ask for the report. Valerie's number is (916)654-4064. Tav's is (916)653-1598. It has loads of details regarding the test we did and a short summary of the tests that Oak ridge did. Jeff Christian ran the test at Oak Ridge and should be reporting on it himself very shortly. Give him a call. Good luck. Nehemiah Stone The Heschong Mahone Group (as of Nov 9, 1998) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 29 07:40:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA07256 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 07:40:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA18058; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 07:27:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Oct 1998 07:24:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA17740 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 07:23:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA17736 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 07:23:53 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1EAZa10656 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 07:35:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 07:35:11 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Superior Wall System Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4735 In a message dated 10/29/98 3:14:39 AM, you wrote: >There is new product out there called Superior Wall System, essentially a >pre-cast concrete wall (and foundation system) Sacie, The price generally runs higher than I can get from a masonry subcontractor, but it is a good system. Advantages: Can be set all winter, very dense concrete so it is less prone to water infiltration (still needs to be sealed), no footer needed (just a hole and sufficient gravel for company to level and tamp before placing foundation), can easily wire through the cast in place studs and drywall/insulate the interior with ease. Disadvantages: Like any "engineered" product (trusses, TJIs, etc) you don't just cut a new hole somewhere with impunity during future renovations. You do need a poured floor to resist the thrust of the backfill, and a floor on the top as well before back filling like a block foundation (not as easy to frame as a good poured foundation that can be back filled before the floor is on) All in all, if you want a finished basement this is the way to go. I know here they are favored by modular house builders since it can cut two weeks off the schedule, getting a house finished in 30 days or so, winter or summer. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Inc. Contractors, Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 29 08:03:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA07492 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 08:03:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA18978; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 07:51:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Oct 1998 07:47:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA18579 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 07:47:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA18572 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 07:47:24 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1WEUa10440 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 07:58:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7774e017.3638667b@aol.com> Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 07:58:35 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Vent-free gas heaters Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4736 New York State has apparently just passed a law to allow vent-free gas room heaters. The newspapers are flooded with ads for the devices ("now legal in New York!"), and I've just had a building owner inquire about them. I always assumed this was a bad idea, venting any combustion products into a building (gas ranges notwithstanding). I'd appreciate comments, specifically any based on measurements, hard experience, knowledge of the new law, etc. Thanks. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 108 S. Albany St. Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX imshapiro@aol.com "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 29 10:30:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA09868 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:29:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25618; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:16:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:11:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25074 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:10:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25070 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 10:10:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id JAA0000014910; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 09:22:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981029152540.00738098@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 09:25:40 -0600 To: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Vent-free gas heaters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4737 In response to the following, this raises several questions: ">I always assumed this was a bad idea, venting any combustion products into a >building (gas ranges notwithstanding). " In our tight, well insulated open spaced cabin although I am building an attached well insulated shed to hold my direct venting gas hot water heater, inside I really want a gas range (with electric ignition). The total sq ft is just over 1100 and I plan to put in two exhaust systems, one in the bathroom 70 cfm, and a direct vent hood over the stove 200 cfm (know it should be lower). The air for the wood stove (sole heat source) is brought in from the outside and for fresh air I plan to put in a number of those little air inlets that the Canadians favor, though one of you suggested I also just not seal too tightly around a couple of windows-----------will probably make the inlets myself if I can figure out how to do it.. Questions are: Is the gas range really a mistake? The bathroom is not entirely closed from the rest of the cabin--cafe type doors into it, and an 8"x6' opening at the top of the wall between it and the main room. Wondering if its a good idea to attach to the bathroom exhaust one of those programmable ventilation control gadgets that will allow continuous outflow of air (and is worth the $90+ price)???? As always, thanks for your responses, Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 29 13:15:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14028 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:15:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06082; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Oct 1998 12:58:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05699 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 12:58:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05693 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 12:58:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DSRDWC4C; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:10:04 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 13:13:10 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: appliances Message-ID: <19981029.131311.9374.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-6,8-9,13-14,16-20 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4738 Steve et al, No one answered the actual question. In the first place, it was decided in advance to use all electric appliances. Secondly, this is a high end project, not one with a tight budget. Thirdly, I don't need a fridge - we already decided on Vestfrost. My question is what brands (ex. Jenn Air etc) cooktops have the best record and which ovens. Don't have time to go through oodles of Consumer's Reports or wait until they do the next issue on appliances. Isn't there some sort of DOE report, EPA or some other ready source. I need anwer soon sokitchen designer can pick which cabinets. Thanks to those who gave input on dishwashers - will go with Asko or Bosch. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 29 17:47:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA18643 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:47:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA21987; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:34:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:29:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA21580 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:29:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc532.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.157]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA21576 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:29:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from AE-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:42:49 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:42:32 -0500 From: "Arnie Katz" To: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Vent-free gas heaters Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id RAA21577 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4739 Ian Shapiro wrote: >>> New York State has apparently just passed a law to allow vent-free gas room heaters. ...I always assumed this was a bad idea, venting any combustion products into a building (gas ranges notwithstanding). I'd appreciate comments, specifically any based on measurements, hard experience, knowledge of the new law, etc.>>> Ian: Methinks you always assumed correctly. My colleagues and I have been in numerous homes with high levels of CO from vent-free appliances. How high is high? I've run out of a house when my Monoxor sitting next to me on the couch in front of the cozy fire hit 500ppm. Others have pegged them out (over 2000 ppm) and readings above both 9ppm and 35ppm have been frequent. Given the research on the impacts of low-level CO, why would anyone want to risk it? Suggest to your client he/she read the manual that comes with the model under consideration. There's generally a long list of medical conditions (pregnancy, repiratory disease, heart disease, etc.) that are listed under the "people with the following shouldn't hang out with these things." They also usually recommend opening a window in the room, which may help dilute the CO and other combustion gases or, then again, depending on the pressure characteristics of the space, may be sucking the gasses directly outside, which may be okay, unless your favorite chair is between the heater and the window. And so on. The oxygen depletion sensors, assuming they are maintained and continue to work, should guarantee that Oxygen levels down on the floor will be okay, but what does that mean for three or four feet above the floor? Beats me. But the roaches and rats will definitely be okay. And then, of course, there's the moisture. What is it, 1 gallon for every 100,000 BTU input? Mold anyone? Tthe best articles I've seen are a paper by Prof. Tom Greiner of Iowa State called "Comments concerning Vent-Free Heating Appliances with Special reference to the American Gas Association March 1996 topical Report." I suspect you can track that down through Iowa State. The other is an artcle by Ted Cushman in the Journal of Light Construction, July 1997 called "Vent-Free Gas Heaters--How Safe? Hope this is helpful. arnie Arnie Katz Building Science Specialist Advanced Energy 909 Capability Drive Raleigh, NC 27606 919/857-9029 FAX: 919/832-2696 akatz@aec.ncsu.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 29 18:59:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA19500 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 18:59:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA26124; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 18:47:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Oct 1998 18:43:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA25826 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 18:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.monumental.com (mail1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA25821 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 18:43:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by mail1.monumental.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10309 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 18:50:14 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 18:50:45 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: wise "high-end" spending Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4740 981029 Beverly, I am sorry we failed to answer your questions. Will try harder next time. Your response did generate a ? in my mind, however. I sincerely hope no offense is taken at what follows. Help me out. Does the fact that a client wants "high end" preclude "economical & sensible"? Is not wasting money just about as bad as wasting natural resourses? Should consultants not recommend lower priced items just because same may fail to impress a moneyed client? BTW, if the client is truly high-end, why no time/inclination to do "research"? I have inlaws that live in Germany. When I went over Miele/Asko prices with them on a recent visit, they were shocked. Apparently Miele, in particular, is much cheaper there. My inexact recollection is that they noted washer prices under (US) $1000, instead of the $1500-1750 here. While we did not match up model #s, the features on the machines were familiar to them. Hey, I am on my 4th Porsche (currently a 1990 C4), so it is not like I am an egalitarian/buy-USA freak. It does get 23 miles to the gallon. All I am suggesting is an open mind, so that we do not always reward those who overprice their goods almost as a matter of style over substance. jh ps--you may want to check those Consumer Reports. I have heard that a Bosch dishwasher was less than highly rated in a recent test suite. Miele makes one that sells for $2200 here. Phew! I can buy a Hobart undercounter dishmachine for around that, and it will wash a restaurant rack in about a minute. But with nasty chemicals (KOH primarily) and not quietly. ;-> Good luck. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 29 19:51:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA20328 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:51:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA27928; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:39:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:35:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA27675 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:35:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA27668 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 19:35:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 14011 invoked by alias); 30 Oct 1998 00:47:07 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 13958 invoked by uid 0); 30 Oct 1998 00:47:05 -0000 Received: from kdialup124.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.180.241.124) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 30 Oct 1998 00:47:05 -0000 Message-ID: <001e01be039e$fc31f0c0$7cf1b4d1@h5n5y7> From: "Peter F. Alspach" To: , Subject: Re: GBlist: Vent-free gas heaters Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 17:48:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4741 I lived for two years in Japan with an unvented kerosene stove as my only source of heat. It was an incredibly miserable experience. I couldn't run the stove for more than 20-30 minutes before I got a headache that led me to prefer freezing cold. Secondly, to avoid carbon monoxide poisoning, the windows had slideable vents that needed to be open while it was running. Thus I had cold air blowing into my house to save me from the imminent death the "heater" was producing. I had one of the "highest tech" blue flame heaters available with electric ignition. I know that kerosene is quite a different story compared to gas, but I imagine the same effects would be there, just maybe reduced in scale. I would have to say you'd be crazy to put such a system into your house. Trust your instincts and not the idiots who approve such devices. Peter Alspach jupiterpete@uswest.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Oct 29 20:18:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA20571 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:18:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA29021; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:05:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:01:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA28739 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:01:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA28734 for ; Thu, 29 Oct 1998 20:01:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 2898 invoked by alias); 30 Oct 1998 01:13:25 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 2861 invoked by uid 0); 30 Oct 1998 01:13:24 -0000 Received: from kdialup124.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.180.241.124) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 30 Oct 1998 01:13:24 -0000 Message-ID: <006401be03a2$a94047a0$7cf1b4d1@h5n5y7> From: "Peter F. Alspach" To: "Arnie Katz" , , Subject: Re: GBlist: Vent-free gas heaters Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 18:14:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4742 An addendum regarding my moisture experiences. Big Big problems! I had lots of condensation on my window which were very cold (single pane, metal frame, and those darn sliding vents). Sometimes the condensation would freeze on the INSIDE! The water dripped off and would soak the beautiful wood sills, causing serious degradation. Peter Alspach jupiterpete@uswest.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 30 11:48:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29017 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:48:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00893; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:35:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:30:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00365 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:30:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (root@kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00355 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:30:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.34 (pm1-2.hoosier.net [206.106.67.34]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23600 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:42:21 -0500 Message-ID: <3639EC69.7F29@ns.hoosier.net> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:42:19 -0500 From: John Bower Reply-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Gas ranges References: <1.5.4.32.19981029152540.00738098@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4743 A gas range should be considered a vent-free device. A typical gas range with the oven and 2-3 burners operating has the same output as a typical gas water heater, and we don't allow vent-free water heaters. There are a number of articles in the medical literature (check out MEDLINE) listing various negative health effects in women who use gas ranges, and children who live in such houses. Yeah, an exhaust hood will help, but only if it is used religiously, and hoods are almost never used religiously. I think electric ranges are healthier. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 30 11:52:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29093 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:52:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01308; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:40:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:36:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00953 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00948 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.149] (rkd21.acadia.net [205.217.217.149]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA29232 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:48:16 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:47:30 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: appliances Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4744 Beverly, Sorry not to have answered your direct question. For electric cooktops, I believe that Kitchenaid has consistently ranked well. I'll stand by my comments about halogen burners. For ovens, it depends on whether they are in their own cabinet or below a countertop. For undercounter models, Consumer Reports rates General Electric well. I still think that a convection oven would be superior. Don't know the best specific brands. When we do "high-end" kitchens, many clients want Dacor, which are great appliances, but I feel that the price reflects snob appeal as much as utility. For very high end kitchens, I try to steer clients toward commercial restaurant equipment, but usually with little success - it's not Martha-Stewartish enough. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 30 12:06:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29445 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:06:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02282; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:53:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:49:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01776 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:49:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01771 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:49:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.149] (rkd21.acadia.net [205.217.217.149]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA01032 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:01:32 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:00:46 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Some interesting numbers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4745 Just came across these statistics from the economics department of the National Association of Homebuilders (imagine that! They have an Economics Department!): In the United States: Houses with two-and-a-half or more baths: In 1971: 36% In 1996: 81% Houses with four or more bedrooms: In 1971: 24% In 1996: 31% With one or more fireplaces: 1971: 36% 1996: 62% Two or more car garage: 1971: 39% 1996: 78% Two or more stories: 1971:17% 1996: 47% 2,400 or more square feet (about 240 sq. meters) 1971: 9% 1996: 30% Average square feet: 1971: 1,520 1996: 2,120 I remember those dim days of 1971, when our lives were so impoverished, and I can't begin to describe my glee that our standard of living has been so increased by these fabulous improvements in our built environment. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 30 12:24:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29877 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:23:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03627; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:11:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:07:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03125 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:07:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03121 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:07:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DSTVDRNZ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:19:06 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:22:05 -0800 Subject: GBlist: appliances Message-ID: <19981030.122206.9302.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-8 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4746 Hi, For those of you who might be interested, I just found a phone number for the American Council for and Energy-Efficient Economy in Washington, DC. They do an evaluation of appliances (202) 429-8873. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 30 12:24:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29883 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:24:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03649; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:07:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03136 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:07:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03131 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:07:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DSTVDRLN; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:19:06 EST To: hardwick@ordinary.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 11:45:17 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: wise "high-end" spending Message-ID: <19981030.122206.9302.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,6-7,12-20 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4747 Hi, JH, No offense taken. By high end, I mean the client wants the best quality and, yes, most efficient. He is willing to pay a premium if necessary. He is European and has a bit of the attitude that European is better ( not always the case), but is open minded enough to explore other technologies. He is willing to pay for my time to do the research - the problem is that right now I am extremely short handed and on a tight time frame. I don't have the luxury of trying to figure out where to start. All I am asking is help in finding a starting point. As I said, I don't usually do kitchens, so do not have much research in my files. Also, my David Goldbeck books seem to have disappeared (temporarily, I hope). Thanks for the thoughts Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 30 15:37:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04614 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:37:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14218; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:25:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:20:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13892 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:20:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.monumental.com (mail1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13839 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:19:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by mail1.monumental.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA00996 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:26:46 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19981030.122206.9302.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:08:06 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: appliances Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4748 981030 Do they have a www site? ----- >Hi, > >For those of you who might be interested, I just found a phone number for >the American Council for and Energy-Efficient Economy in Washington, DC. >They do an evaluation of appliances (202) 429-8873. > >Beverly Weiter ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 30 15:56:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04921 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:56:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15422; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:43:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:40:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15039 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:39:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (wfntnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.37.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15033 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:39:48 -0500 (EST) From: walshj@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 852566AD.00727084 ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:49:59 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <852566AD.0071261E.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:49:49 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: appliances Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4749 There are several good web sites for appliance efficiency. http://aceee.org http://CADDET-EE.ORG/listing.htm http://rmi.org/hebs/heb ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 30 15:59:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04968 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15771; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:47:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:43:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15404 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:43:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15396 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 15:43:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [153.37.198.224] (1Cust224.tnt1.redmond.wa.da.uu.net [153.37.198.224]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA05389 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 12:55:09 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: wrg7@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <19981030.122206.9302.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:08:45 -0800 To: Green building list From: Mary Colette Wallace Subject: Re: GBlist: appliances Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4750 James wrote >Do they have a www site? Beverly wrote >> I just found a phone number for the American Council for and >>>>Energy-Efficient Economy in Washington, DC. >>They do an evaluation of appliances (202) 429-8873. James Yes the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy has a website: http://aceee.org/ Please note: It is extremely difficult to read the text on the first page (on my Netscape browser it's very dark and so is the text.) BUT here's a way around that: move your mouse slowly over the page and each time the 'pointing hand' comes on the screen stop. Look at the bottom left-hand corner of your screen (that's where this is on Netscape) and see the link or URL information. The words after the 'aceee' part will tell you what page that links to. Without moving your mouse, if that's where you want to go, click while the hand is over that area. Keep moving around the page if you are looking for something else. This technique is rather like driving forward while looking in the rear-view mirror, but it works on sites such as these. Hope this helps Mary Colette Wallace, Associate A.I.A. THE WALLACE RESEARCH GROUP 425.822.1249 Mailto:wrg7@earthlink.net architecture, engineering & building technology information ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 30 16:42:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA05730 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:42:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA17792; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:29:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:26:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA17522 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:25:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA17518 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 16:25:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from reg-53-0118.direct.ca ([216.66.142.18] helo=kadulski) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 0zZMEj-0006Ru-00; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:37:38 -0800 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Cc: Subject: GBlist: Vent-free gas heaters Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 09:32:19 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4751 Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 09:25:40 -0600 From: "David F. Lambertson" >Questions are: > >Is the gas range really a mistake? It depends on the level of concern for IAQ. If there is someone with extreme chemical sensitivites, then even the small amounts of NOX and such will be a concern. The most important thing is to have the range hood that exhausts directly to the exterior. (I was taken aback a few years ago during an NAHB tour of housing projects in the Las Vegas area at how common the unvented gas range seem to be down south). The significant diffence between unvented heaters and ranges is that ranges generally are fired for relatively short time periods under strict supervision, while the unvented heaters and fireplaces will be run for long periods - (as mood pieces they are also used at a time when you are likely to doze off so that the unit will not be turned off or monitored). >The bathroom is not entirely closed from the rest of the cabin--cafe type >doors into it, and an 8"x6' opening at the top of the wall between it and >the main room. Wondering if its a good idea to attach to the bathroom >exhaust one of those programmable ventilation control gadgets that will >allow continuous outflow of air (and is worth the $90+ price)???? Especially if the construction is draft free, continuous mechanical ventilation is beneficial - if the occupancy is not continuous, or if you are in exceptionally cold climate and are not using a heat recovery ventilator, then you may want to have a timed ventilation control [ but the off time should not be too long]. A 70 cfm exhaust, actually moving 60-70 cfm should be more than adequate continuous ventilation for a household of 4 people, especially if you are paying attention to the materials used and brought into the house. ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Oct 30 18:20:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA07435 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:20:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA22220; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:06:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:01:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA21900 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:01:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21895 for ; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:01:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust33.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.33]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id RAA06246; Fri, 30 Oct 1998 17:13:19 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <363A48EC.62D4@gte.net> Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 18:17:00 -0500 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" CC: Green building list Subject: Re: GBlist: appliances References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4752 The web site is aceee.org Cindy Shea ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 1 09:46:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21990 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 09:46:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23273; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 09:32:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Nov 1998 09:28:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22815 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 09:27:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mint.mint.net (root@mint.mint.net [204.254.98.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22811 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 09:27:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.220.38.128] (ddialup-r-108.mint.net [208.220.38.128]) by mint.mint.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29212 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 09:39:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199811011439.JAA29212@mint.mint.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 09:40:30 -0500 Subject: GBlist: GB list: linoleum on slabs-a halloween horror story From: "Sarah Holland" To: EBS Green Building Chat Group Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4753 Thank you to all who gave responses to David Foley and I in answer to our query about linoleum on a slab on grade. Thought we would share with you some of our findings and let you know where we stand to date. First, some of you wanted to know more about the construction and the history so here goes: (Take a deep breath this is a long one...Think of it as a spooky Holloween story....) The slab assembly is a 6" concrete slab (without any additves or sealants-as specified by Marmoleum) , on 16" of compacted "crusher dust" (a course sandy material), on 2" polystyrene foam insulation, on a 6 mil poly vapor retarder, on 6" to 8" compacted crusher dust on undisturbed soil. Both the insulation and the vapor barrier are continuous under the entire slab and up the 22" vertical haunch of the slab edges. In addition a 48" horizontal apron is wrapped around the entire perimeter and slopes down to perimeter footing drains wraped in filter fabric which lead to an outfall. (This is all to industry standards according to the American Institute of Concrete and other experts on frost protected slab foundations.) We carefully observed the construction of this phase and can vouch for the care and attention to detail in the field. The slab was poured in August. The building was enclosed and heated for at least two months before installation, giving the slab plenty of time to cure and dry. The floor was installed in November. Prior to installation the General Contractor conducted a moisture test by taping a three foot square sheet of plastic to the floor and leaving it there for about a week. He did this in several locations through-out the building. There was no indication of any moisture at all. Then the flooring contractor conducted a moisture test with a meter which also indicated adequate conditions. Neither of these tests is the recommended Marmoleum calcium chloride test. Shortly after installation some of the seams began to lift. The flooring contractor came back on several occasions to remedy these problems. In June severe bubbling began to occur. Most of this bubbling was happening near the radiators at the exterior walls, but some of the bubbles were in the middle of the floor. In August some of the flooring was removed and a calcium chloride test was conducted. The readings ranged from 9.9 to 13 lbs per 1000 s.f/24hrs. In October, a third party testing company, re-tested the slab and confirmed these findings. We are conducting some investigations to determine if ground water or some other outside source is the culprit. However our theory is that some moisture accumulated above the vapor retarder during construction (bleed water from the concrete, a bit of rain, etc.). This water vapor migrated very slowly through the fill and the slab. Our geotechnical engineer and others say it is not unreasonable to assume that it may take as long as eight months for vapor to migrate through a slab. If that is true than moisture tests conducted at the time of installation are nearly meaningless. If vapor can and does migrate through slabs at such a slow rate, then it seems that linoleum should not be installed unless the slab is two years old. Even so our geotechnical engineer says that about 95% of all slabs he has observed have a moisture content of more than 3.5 lbs per 1000s.f./24 hrs. (Above the requirement for most sheet goods.) Needless to say this is an industry wide problem. Good company is always some small comfort. Perhaps rather than asking "is anyone out there having similar problems" we should ask" is anyone out there not having any problems?" During our research and networking we came across other stories and anecdotes about linoleum on slabs. One interesting fact is that the linoleum is dissloved by alkalides which are inherent in the concrete and wick up with the water vapor. So it turns out that not only does the adhesive fail but the product itself disintegrates. Another interesting fact is that the jute backing shrinks when damp and pulls away from the product, contributing to the adhesion failure. And some say that no waterbased low V.O.C. products can work in any amount of moisture. I thought linoleum was used on battleships and submarines. How can that be? Perhaps these legends are based on the old fashioned abestos type linoleum not the new-fashioned natural stuff. (?) This is all vey sad news because we really like the idea of natural linoleum as an environmentally responsible product and we like shallow slab frost protected foundations for the same reason. But we are finding out the hard way that they do not mix well. Out here in the trenches, flooring installers have experimented on their own to find solutions. Some say epoxy adhesives can work with linoleum on a moist slab, but others say anything other than waterbased adhesives are not compatible with the linseed based material. Some have suggested that a slab coating such "Sealflex" will work. (Sealflex will even warranty any product including linoleum installed over theirs on slabs with up to 10.4 lbs/1000 s.f/24 hr. ) In order to successfully re-install any sheet goods including linoleum we've been told we would have to tear out the existing flooring, bead-blast the slab (to break up the tight matrix of the troweled finish), dry out the slab with a dehumidifier or a desicant machine for three weeks, re-test the miosture and Ph, and for extra insurance install Seal flex or a similar coating. On the other hand, for less expense and hassel, we could skip all that and just install tile on a thin-set mortar base with a latex additive good enough for swimming pool installations and be done with it. Guess what we're going to recommend? Speaking of tile, several manufacturers are now adding recylced glass to their clay bodies in order to fire at a lower temperature and only once. Usually ceramic tile is fired twice at high temperature. This significantly lowers the cost of manufacturing and thus the retail price. So tile can be a very ecological, non-outgassing, non-toxic, attractive, durable, and cost effective product. Just don't use those nasty mastic adhesives. As we embark on new projects we are carefully rethinking the standard detail of slab on grade construction in order to avoid this moisture vapor problem. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. (We already have the FPSF handbook by NAHB.) Thanks again for all your help on this. What a great bunch of folks! A lurker no longer, Sarah Holland Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Rd. Northport, Maine ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 1 09:46:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21994 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 09:46:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23275; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 09:32:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Nov 1998 09:28:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22840 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 09:27:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mint.mint.net (root@mint.mint.net [204.254.98.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22828 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 09:27:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.220.38.128] (ddialup-r-108.mint.net [208.220.38.128]) by mint.mint.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29236; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 09:39:39 -0500 Message-Id: <199811011439.JAA29236@mint.mint.net> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 09:42:13 -0500 Subject: GBlist: GB list: linoleum on slabs-a halloween horror story From: "Sarah Holland" To: EBS Green Building Chat Group CC: Sarah Holland Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4754 Thank you to all who gave responses to David Foley and I in answer to our query about linoleum on a slab on grade. Thought we would share with you some of our findings and let you know where we stand to date. First, some of you wanted to know more about the construction and the history so here goes: (Take a deep breath this is a long one...Think of it as a spooky Holloween story....) The slab assembly is a 6" concrete slab (without any additves or sealants-as specified by Marmoleum) , on 16" of compacted "crusher dust" (a course sandy material), on 2" polystyrene foam insulation, on a 6 mil poly vapor retarder, on 6" to 8" compacted crusher dust on undisturbed soil. Both the insulation and the vapor barrier are continuous under the entire slab and up the 22" vertical haunch of the slab edges. In addition a 48" horizontal apron is wrapped around the entire perimeter and slopes down to perimeter footing drains wraped in filter fabric which lead to an outfall. (This is all to industry standards according to the American Institute of Concrete and other experts on frost protected slab foundations.) We carefully observed the construction of this phase and can vouch for the care and attention to detail in the field. The slab was poured in August. The building was enclosed and heated for at least two months before installation, giving the slab plenty of time to cure and dry. The floor was installed in November. Prior to installation the General Contractor conducted a moisture test by taping a three foot square sheet of plastic to the floor and leaving it there for about a week. He did this in several locations through-out the building. There was no indication of any moisture at all. Then the flooring contractor conducted a moisture test with a meter which also indicated adequate conditions. Neither of these tests is the recommended Marmoleum calcium chloride test. Shortly after installation some of the seams began to lift. The flooring contractor came back on several occasions to remedy these problems. In June severe bubbling began to occur. Most of this bubbling was happening near the radiators at the exterior walls, but some of the bubbles were in the middle of the floor. In August some of the flooring was removed and a calcium chloride test was conducted. The readings ranged from 9.9 to 13 lbs per 1000 s.f/24hrs. In October, a third party testing company, re-tested the slab and confirmed these findings. We are conducting some investigations to determine if ground water or some other outside source is the culprit. However our theory is that some moisture accumulated above the vapor retarder during construction (bleed water from the concrete, a bit of rain, etc.). This water vapor migrated very slowly through the fill and the slab. Our geotechnical engineer and others say it is not unreasonable to assume that it may take as long as eight months for vapor to migrate through a slab. If that is true than moisture tests conducted at the time of installation are nearly meaningless. If vapor can and does migrate through slabs at such a slow rate, then it seems that linoleum should not be installed unless the slab is two years old. Even so our geotechnical engineer says that about 95% of all slabs he has observed have a moisture content of more than 3.5 lbs per 1000s.f./24 hrs. (Above the requirement for most sheet goods.) Needless to say this is an industry wide problem. Good company is always some small comfort. Perhaps rather than asking "is anyone out there having similar problems" we should ask" is anyone out there not having any problems?" During our research and networking we came across other stories and anecdotes about linoleum on slabs. One interesting fact is that the linoleum is dissloved by alkalides which are inherent in the concrete and wick up with the water vapor. So it turns out that not only does the adhesive fail but the product itself disintegrates. Another interesting fact is that the jute backing shrinks when damp and pulls away from the product, contributing to the adhesion failure. And some say that no waterbased low V.O.C. products can work in any amount of moisture. I thought linoleum was used on battleships and submarines. How can that be? Perhaps these legends are based on the old fashioned abestos type linoleum not the new-fashioned natural stuff. (?) This is all vey sad news because we really like the idea of natural linoleum as an environmentally responsible product and we like shallow slab frost protected foundations for the same reason. But we are finding out the hard way that they do not mix well. Out here in the trenches, flooring installers have experimented on their own to find solutions. Some say epoxy adhesives can work with linoleum on a moist slab, but others say anything other than waterbased adhesives are not compatible with the linseed based material. Some have suggested that a slab coating such "Sealflex" will work. (Sealflex will even warranty any product including linoleum installed over theirs on slabs with up to 10.4 lbs/1000 s.f/24 hr. ) In order to successfully re-install any sheet goods including linoleum we've been told we would have to tear out the existing flooring, bead-blast the slab (to break up the tight matrix of the troweled finish), dry out the slab with a dehumidifier or a desicant machine for three weeks, re-test the miosture and Ph, and for extra insurance install Seal flex or a similar coating. On the other hand, for less expense and hassel, we could skip all that and just install tile on a thin-set mortar base with a latex additive good enough for swimming pool installations and be done with it. Guess what we're going to recommend? Speaking of tile, several manufacturers are now adding recylced glass to their clay bodies in order to fire at a lower temperature and only once. Usually ceramic tile is fired twice at high temperature. This significantly lowers the cost of manufacturing and thus the retail price. So tile can be a very ecological, non-outgassing, non-toxic, attractive, durable, and cost effective product. Just don't use those nasty mastic adhesives. As we embark on new projects we are carefully rethinking the standard detail of slab on grade construction in order to avoid this moisture vapor problem. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. (We already have the FPSF handbook by NAHB.) Thanks again for all your help on this. What a great bunch of folks! A lurker no longer, Sarah Holland Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Rd. Northport, Maine ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 1 10:30:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22256 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 10:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24484; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 10:17:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Nov 1998 10:13:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24226 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 10:13:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24219 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 10:13:05 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id VMVa002341; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 10:23:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <44d15e40.363c7cf1@aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 10:23:29 EST To: pjcaver@mint.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: GB list: linoleum on slabs-a halloween horror story Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 214 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4755 In a message dated 11/1/98 9:41:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, pjcaver@mint.net writes: << Speaking of tile, several manufacturers are now adding recylced glass to their clay bodies in order to fire at a lower temperature and only once. Usually ceramic tile is fired twice at high temperature. This significantly lowers the cost of manufacturing and thus the retail price. So tile can be a very ecological, non-outgassing, non-toxic, attractive, durable, and cost effective product. Just don't use those nasty mastic adhesives. >> I would be very interested in contacting the manufacturers. In particualr, I'm looking for a quarry tile with recycled content. I am aware of Terra Green. Thanks for any leads. Phil Bailey/SustainAbility ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 1 14:58:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA24601 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:58:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02730; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:45:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:41:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA02475 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:41:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02470 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:40:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from Alisa (usr0a39.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.39]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA12424; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 14:52:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981101145334.0071fe94@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 14:53:34 -0500 To: Pbsustain@aol.com, pjcaver@mint.net From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: GB list: linoleum on slabs-a halloween horror story Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <44d15e40.363c7cf1@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4756 I'm >looking for a quarry tile with recycled content. I am aware of Terra Green. >Thanks for any leads. eenbuilding-request@crest.org. Phil, Are you familiar with Summitville Tiles- They make impervious glazed procelain tiles with a by-product of feldspar mining- I have seen them installed and they are quite durable on the floor. Summitville tile, Sumitville Ohio, 216-223-1511 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 1 16:54:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA25285 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 16:53:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06623; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 16:40:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Nov 1998 16:36:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA06204 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 16:36:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06199 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 16:36:36 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1ABOa10655 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 16:47:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 16:47:30 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Foundation water/moisture control Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4757 Friends, A topic that may seem boring and not especially green, but relevant in keeping houses dry, customers happy, etc.: What systems are you folks finding effective for waterproofing/damproofing concrete foundations, especially in he winter when freezing conditions may hamper the application of some water based products? I've been trying several systems and products and haven't found the perfect answer yet. Thanks in advance for your thoughts, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 1 17:32:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA25578 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 17:32:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08307; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 17:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Nov 1998 17:15:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA08023 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 17:15:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08013 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 17:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.46]) by cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 2827600 ; Sun, 01 Nov 1998 14:46:43 -0800 Message-ID: <363CDF9D.3943333C@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 14:24:29 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FUnger@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Foundation water/moisture control References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4758 There is definitely a more green or less green aspect to part of the question. Asphalt based products in my mind are not green, generally more in the black range. The only real alternative I've found that I like for waterproofing is zypec. It is cementious and I think an ideal surface or even as a batch treatment but subject to the same problems as cement in freezing conditions. If daytime conditions permit it could probably be applied then covered with a mineral wool drainboard/insulation - the foundation in any event would have to be protected for the same conditions. John FUnger@aol.com wrote: > Friends, > > A topic that may seem boring and not especially green, but relevant in keeping > houses dry, customers happy, etc.: > > What systems are you folks finding effective for waterproofing/damproofing > concrete foundations, especially in he winter when freezing conditions may > hamper the application of some water based products? I've been trying several > systems and products and haven't found the perfect answer yet. > > Thanks in advance for your thoughts, Fred > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 1 21:53:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA27798 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:53:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18579; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:40:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:36:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18078 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:36:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18074 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 21:36:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id UAA0000006561; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 20:48:06 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981102025058.00742e48@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 20:50:58 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: gas ranges in a tight building Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4759 Listers, In response to my question about using a gas range in a tight cabin, I've received some good answers that weren't general posted so I am passing these on. Sacie Lambertson ------------------------------ That's very controversial here in our shop. I happen to like to cook, and strongly prefer cooking on gas, so I come down on the side that says gas ranges are fine... if... your have a range hood that 1)actually works and 2) is quiet enough so you'll use it. I got one at Sears that is reasonably quiet, variable speed, and seems to do the job. Depending on what I've been cooking, and for how long, etc., I've measured various levels of CO from the range & oven. This drops to zero very quickly with the fan on. A short training session with the CO detector was enough to convince the whole family to always turn the fan on whenever using the range or oven. Visually, it seems to pick up almost all the steam, even from the front burners, so I feel pretty good about it. The next level would be to get a larger hood that was mounted lower than standard, but at this point I'm satisfied with the performance I'm getting. When I tested the flow, I believe it was pulling about 150cfm on high speed., which is rarely used. >>> The bathroom is not entirely closed from the rest of the cabin--cafe type doors into it, and an 8"x6' opening at the top of the wall between it and the main room. Wondering if its a good idea to attach to the bathroom exhaust one of those programmable ventilation control gadgets that will allow continuous outflow of air (and is worth the $90+ price)????>>> I'd get a bath fan rated for continuous use, with a variable speed controller. We've installed dozens of the super quiet, low-energy Panasonics with excellent results. I understand Broan and others have equally good models on the market now. Size it to move at least 50cfm installed, meaning you'll probably want a 70 to 110 cfm model, depending on how long the exhaust duct is, how many bends it has, etc. Then set it to run at about 10-15 cfm per person in the house, continuously. When bathing, farting, etc., you can boost it up. ----------------------------------------- A gas range should be considered a vent-free device. A typical gas range with the oven and 2-3 burners operating has the same output as a typical gas water heater, and we don't allow vent-free water heaters. There are a number of articles in the medical literature (check out MEDLINE) listing various negative health effects in women who use gas ranges, and children who live in such houses. Yeah, an exhaust hood will help, but only if it is used religiously, and hoods are almost never used religiously. I think electric ranges are healthier. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute ------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 1 23:49:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA29001 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 23:49:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA23674; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 23:36:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Nov 1998 23:33:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23413 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 23:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23409 for ; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 23:32:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.98] (ka3-98.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.98]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15335; Sun, 1 Nov 1998 23:44:34 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3639EC69.7F29@ns.hoosier.net> References: <1.5.4.32.19981029152540.00738098@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 20:53:46 -0500 To: healthy@bloomington.in.us, Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Gas ranges Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id XAA23410 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4760 Sgrìobh John Bower: >A gas range should be considered a vent-free device. A typical gas range >with the oven and 2-3 burners operating has the same output as a typical >gas water heater, and we don't allow vent-free water heaters. There are >a number of articles in the medical literature (check out MEDLINE) >listing various negative health effects in women who use gas ranges, and >children who live in such houses. Yeah, an exhaust hood will help, but >only if it is used religiously, and hoods are almost never used >religiously. I think electric ranges are healthier. Oh, dear. People who are off the grid always try to avoid electric resistance heating. What are we to do, those of us who rely on gas? Are there sealed-combustion gas stoves, and if so, is there a clearly superior version which doesn't draw current or burn gas constantly for a pilot light? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 2 04:09:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA00898 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 04:09:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA02917; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 03:56:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Nov 1998 03:53:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA02568 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 03:52:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA02564 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 03:52:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 23934 invoked from network); 2 Nov 1998 09:04:51 -0000 Received: from usern525.uk.uudial.com (HELO ) (193.149.85.50) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 2 Nov 1998 09:04:51 -0000 Message-ID: <363AE174.2C6A@dial.pipex.com> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 10:07:48 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Reply-To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Some interesting numbers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4761 David M. Foley wrote: > ...In the United States: > Houses with two-and-a-half or more baths: > In 1971: 36% > In 1996: 81%... This grossly impoverished Brit wonders how he has managed all his life to cope with living in single-bath households. (Indeed, as a student at Cambridge, I had to walk across two large courtyards to get to the bathroom...) What I don't understand, though is what you people do with the half-a-bath! Mark the dirt-encrusted Bristol, England hyphen@dial.pipex.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 2 08:57:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA02784 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:57:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11843; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:42:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:38:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11473 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:38:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from oak (caroldag@oak.liii.com [198.207.193.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA11469 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:38:39 -0500 (EST) From: "Carol D'Agostino" Received: by oak (8.8.6/8.8.5) id NAA10977; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:50:27 GMT Message-Id: <199811021350.NAA10977@oak> Subject: Re: GBlist: gas ranges in a tight building To: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (David F. Lambertson) Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:50:25 -0500 (EST) Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19981102025058.00742e48@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> from "David F. Lambertson" at Nov 1, 98 08:50:58 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4762 There's more than CO going on in a gas range home. Even though I eliminated pilot lights for ignition lighted, everytime I turned on a burner, I got a whiff of gas that is released into the kitchen during that split second before ignition. After living with gas most of my life, I can no longer tolerate it. It gives me terrific headaches and spaciness in my head. These reactions did not surface until I had replaced my gas range with an electric one. While househunting a few years ago, I smelled gas in many of the homes I viewed. People live with gas leaks and don't realize it. Doctors who deal with chemically sensitive people advise their patients to get gas out of the house entirely, all appliances, as well as piping. Gas leaks, any chance it gets. Carol caroldag@liii.com > Listers, In response to my question about using a gas range in a tight > cabin, I've received some good answers that weren't general posted so I am > passing these on. Sacie Lambertson > ------------------------------ > > That's very controversial here in our shop. I happen to like to cook, and > strongly prefer cooking on gas, so I come down on the side that says gas > ranges are fine... > if... > your have a range hood that 1)actually works and 2) is quiet enough so > you'll use it. I got one at Sears that is reasonably quiet, variable speed, > and seems to do the job. Depending on what I've been cooking, and for how > long, etc., I've measured various levels of CO from the range & oven. This > drops to zero very quickly with the fan on. A short training session with > the CO detector was enough to convince the whole family to always turn the > fan on whenever using the range or oven. Visually, it seems to pick up > almost all the steam, even from the front burners, so I feel pretty good > about it. The next level would be to get a larger hood that was mounted > lower than standard, but at this point I'm satisfied with the performance > I'm getting. When I tested the flow, I believe it was pulling about 150cfm > on high speed., which is rarely used. > >>> The bathroom is not entirely closed from the rest of the cabin--cafe > type doors into it, and an 8"x6' opening at the top of the wall between it > and the main room. Wondering if its a good idea to attach to the bathroom > exhaust one of those programmable ventilation control gadgets that will > allow continuous outflow of air (and is worth the $90+ price)????>>> > > I'd get a bath fan rated for continuous use, with a variable speed > controller. We've installed dozens of the super quiet, low-energy > Panasonics with excellent results. I understand Broan and others have > equally good models on the market now. Size it to move at least 50cfm > installed, meaning you'll probably want a 70 to 110 cfm model, depending on > how long the exhaust duct is, how many bends it has, etc. Then set it to run > at about 10-15 cfm per person in the house, continuously. When bathing, > farting, etc., you can boost it up. > ----------------------------------------- > A gas range should be considered a vent-free device. A typical gas range > with the oven and 2-3 burners operating has the same output as a typical > gas water heater, and we don't allow vent-free water heaters. There are > a number of articles in the medical literature (check out MEDLINE) > listing various negative health effects in women who use gas ranges, and > children who live in such houses. Yeah, an exhaust hood will help, but > only if it is used religiously, and hoods are almost never used > religiously. I think electric ranges are healthier. > -- > John Bower, The Healthy House Institute > ------------------------------------- > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 2 09:17:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA03053 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:17:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12848; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:02:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:59:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12528 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:58:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12520 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:58:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from avery.med.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa03719; 2 Nov 98 9:10 EST Received: from [128.143.75.111] (bootp-75-111.bootp.Virginia.EDU [128.143.75.111]) by avery.med.Virginia.EDU (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA59806 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:10:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199811021410.JAA59806@avery.med.Virginia.EDU> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 09:13:24 -0500 Subject: GBlist: Passive Solar Homes From: Bart Nathan To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4763 Does anyone have experience with Enertia Passive Solar Homes ( http://www.enertia.com )? They are a builder of kit type passive solar envelope homes and are located in North Carolina. Any comments on their building methods and their science would be appreciated. _____________________________________________________ Bart Nathan, M.D. Neurocritical Care and Neuroinfectious Disease University of Virginia Charlottesville, VA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 2 10:20:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03842 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:20:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15721; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:02:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:57:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15253 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:57:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from beta.nova.org (beta.nova.org [209.31.144.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15235 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 09:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from infiltec.com (ra1-10.dial.nova.org [209.31.144.170]) by beta.nova.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA17632 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 10:09:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <363DCAA5.1C863236@infiltec.com> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 10:07:18 -0500 From: David Saum Reply-To: dsaum@infiltec.com Organization: Infiltec X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Power (kwh) meter source? References: <199811021410.JAA59806@avery.med.Virginia.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4764 Does anyone have a source for an inexpensive power meter that could be used to measure the average electric energy consumption of home applicances like refrigerators? TIA, Dave Saum Infiltec http://www.infiltec.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 2 12:31:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA05999 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:31:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23686; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:14:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:10:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23303 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:10:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23294 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:10:11 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DS3LFC9R; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 12:16:37 EST To: brn3a@virginia.edu Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 08:44:41 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Homes Message-ID: <19981102.111627.-177467.0.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,4-5,7-8,10-19,21-39 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4765 I don't have any info on this particular product but when I consider their location it makes me wonder what they are thinking. Solar heating a home in the South is like using an electric heater in Hell. One should always consider the geographic orientation of the home if for any reason for the purpose of solar module location. When people call me and ask about solar heating a home we usually just respond, "We don't do that." Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7147 http://www.sbtdesigns.com www.artistmall.com On Mon, 02 Nov 1998 09:13:24 -0500 Bart Nathan writes: >Does anyone have experience with Enertia Passive Solar Homes ( >http://www.enertia.com )? They are a builder of kit type passive >solar envelope homes and are located in North Carolina. Any >comments on their building methods and their science would be >appreciated. >_____________________________________________________ >Bart Nathan, M.D. >Neurocritical Care and Neuroinfectious Disease >University of Virginia >Charlottesville, VA >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 2 13:20:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA09896 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:20:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA27193; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:04:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:00:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26776 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:00:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26766 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:00:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from Alisa (usr0a18.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.18]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA03791; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:12:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981102131253.0071ac3c@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 13:12:53 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Danny Sagan Subject: GBlist: Rubber Flooring Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4766 Hello GReenbuilders, I am looking for rubber floor mats or floor covering for the interior of a house.The goal is to cover a concrete floor to provide cushioning for walking and children playing and falling. We don't want to use carpet because it gets too dirty and we don't want to attach the floor covering down. I am finding various sources of rubber mats but I am unfamiliar with the potential outgasing of any toxins from these products. Anybody have any experience or opinions about the IAQ issues related to this sort of thing?- Thank you in advance- Danny Sagan, Randolph Ctr, VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 2 14:17:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16212 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:17:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00955; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:01:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:57:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00324 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:56:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00316 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:56:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DS3SUQPV; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 14:08:46 EST To: dsagan@sover.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:11:50 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Rubber Flooring Message-ID: <19981102.141151.9286.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19981102131253.0071ac3c@sover.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,8-12 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4767 Danny, We used to use a recycled rubber padding under carpeting but found a number of people had bad reactions to rubber. It is apparently not uncommon. I would suggest you might want to find an alternative. Try using a layer or two of cork. If you don't want to glue something down, try long strips of double stick tape. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 2 14:18:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16227 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:18:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00958; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 14:01:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:57:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00323 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:56:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00315 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:56:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DS3SUQER; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 14:08:46 EST To: Pbsustain@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 13:50:25 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: GB list: linoleum on slabs-a halloween horror story Message-ID: <19981102.141151.9286.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <44d15e40.363c7cf1@aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-7,10-15 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4768 Hi, Other tile to look at - Summitville makes a recycled content porcelain - Imperva and Imperva Granite. Another recent find - gorgeous but expensive - tile made from recycled beach glass - Oceanside Glass Co. Don't know the address in Calif. but the phone if (760) 434-0051 to find a nearby distributor. Also found a company out of England which uses recycled material from local porcelain factories. Can't pub my finger on it right now but will post later if I can find it. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 2 15:45:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17479 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:45:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA07307; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:32:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:26:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06599 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:26:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06580 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 15:26:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.39] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:43:55 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Rubber Flooring Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 12:40:43 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Danny Sagan" , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1302111855-2294024@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4769 Danny The REDI database lists several companies that make floor mats and resilient tiles from recycled materials. I'm not sure they would meet your air quality requirement, but you may find something. I suggest you use the Power Search feature to identify the "environmental benefit" of Low Toxicity or Air Quality and then type in a word in the category box such as "floor" or "mat". You may have to try a few different combinations. Good Luck Bruce >I am looking for rubber floor mats or floor covering for the interior of a >house.The goal is to cover a concrete floor to provide cushioning for >walking and children playing and falling. We don't want to use carpet >because it gets too dirty and we don't want to attach the floor covering >down. I am finding various sources of rubber mats but I am unfamiliar with >the potential outgasing of any toxins from these products. Anybody have any >experience or opinions about the IAQ issues related to this sort of thing?- >Thank you in advance- >Danny Sagan, Randolph Ctr, VT ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 2 17:53:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA20887 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:53:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14730; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:33:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:29:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14246 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:29:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from netcube.ntwrks.com (root@Netcube.ntwrks.com [192.154.76.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14240 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:29:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ntwrks.com (ppp23.ntwrks.com [192.154.76.27]) by netcube.ntwrks.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA16165; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:46:44 -0500 Message-ID: <363E3401.BAFCCAEF@ntwrks.com> Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 17:36:49 -0500 From: Wayne Jones Reply-To: wayne_jones@ntwrks.com Organization: Brown & Jones Architects, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sbtauto@juno.com CC: brn3a@virginia.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Homes References: <19981102.111627.-177467.0.sbtauto@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4770 On the contrary, using good passive solar design in our temperate climate in North Carolina makes very good sense. We have a substantial heating season, with extreme cold at times as does the rest of the south. (I have been in ice storms and frigid cold temperatures in Texas more frequently than I have in North Carolina!) The point is that with intelligent solar design, you can offset a large percentage of the heating load in the winter, while at the same time providing a design that reduces the cooling load in the summer. This is the art of passive solar design in this climate. Correct orientation of the building and glazing, positioning and sizing of overhangs, and amount of mass in the building are all components of a well designed solar building. For the commercial sector, it makes as much or more sense to use (solar) daylighting in the south to offset the increased cooling and electrical load by electrical lighting. Commercial buildings here rarely use heating because of the internal loads. Ironically, this use of solar is most valuable in the summer. This issue is a little more complex than you think. Wayne Jones past Chair of the North Carolina Solar Energy Association sbtauto@juno.com wrote: > I don't have any info on this particular product but when I consider > their location it makes me wonder what they are thinking. > > Solar heating a home in the South is like using an electric heater in > Hell. -- Brown and Jones, Architects 16 N. Boylan Ave. Raleigh, NC 27603 (919) 831-2625 FAX 831-2626 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 2 18:06:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA21043 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:06:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA15830; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:52:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:49:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15438 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:49:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15432 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:48:59 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DS375AF9; Mon, 02 Nov 1998 18:00:38 EST To: wayne_jones@ntwrks.com Cc: sbtauto@juno.com, brn3a@virginia.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 16:54:25 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Homes Message-ID: <19981102.170044.-177467.3.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-7,12-13,17-19,21-81 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4771 It is more complex than you think. We have heard all the rhetoric and have learned from history and experience that what is absolutely required in South Texas is cooling. One summer here and one doesn't much care how that cooling is obtained. Our citizens (especially immigrants) quickly make the decision to pay any cost. We have learned the secret and what makes the difference is thermal mass structures. That is the time proven solution to our climate extremes. I won't make any claims about South Carolina but we have proven this concept in Louisiana as well. To be more specific thermal mass using native materials. One thing is for sure. In the South one can always put on a sweater and survive the winter (2 months max). We just don't have that many freezing deaths unless it is some poor transient who can't or won't come in from the cold. On Mon, 02 Nov 1998 17:36:49 -0500 Wayne Jones writes: >On the contrary, using good passive solar design in our temperate >climate in >North Carolina makes very good sense. We have a substantial heating >season, >with extreme cold at times as does the rest of the south. (I have >been in >ice storms and frigid cold temperatures in Texas more frequently than >I have >in North Carolina!) > >The point is that with intelligent solar design, you can offset a >large >percentage of the heating load in the winter, while at the same time >providing a design that reduces the cooling load in the summer. This >is the >art of passive solar design in this climate. Correct orientation of >the >building and glazing, positioning and sizing of overhangs, and amount >of >mass in the building are all components of a well designed solar >building. > >For the commercial sector, it makes as much or more sense to use >(solar) >daylighting in the south to offset the increased cooling and >electrical load >by electrical lighting. Commercial buildings here rarely use heating >because of the internal loads. Ironically, this use of solar is most >valuable in the summer. > >This issue is a little more complex than you think. > >Wayne Jones >past Chair of the North Carolina Solar Energy Association > >sbtauto@juno.com wrote: > >> I don't have any info on this particular product but when I >consider >> their location it makes me wonder what they are thinking. >> >> Solar heating a home in the South is like using an electric heater >in >> Hell. > >-- >Brown and Jones, Architects >16 N. Boylan Ave. >Raleigh, NC 27603 >(919) 831-2625 FAX 831-2626 > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 2 18:29:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA21268 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:29:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17476; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:15:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:12:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA17132 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:12:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17127 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:12:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from kbell (pool-207-205-242-100.atln.grid.net [207.205.242.100]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA25975; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:24:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811022324.SAA25975@camel7.mindspring.com> From: "Karlene" To: , "Danny Sagan" Cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: Rubber Flooring Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:25:12 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4772 Cork's the thing! ---------- > > I am looking for rubber floor mats or floor covering for the interior of a > house.The goal is to cover a concrete floor to provide cushioning for > walking and children playing and falling. We don't want to use carpet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 2 18:58:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA21798 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:58:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19399; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:45:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:41:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA18890 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:41:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA18884 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from kbell (pool-207-205-242-100.atln.grid.net [207.205.242.100]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA26974; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:53:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811022353.SAA26974@camel7.mindspring.com> From: "Karlene" To: , Cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Homes Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:54:03 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4773 I beg to differ, Sir! I think the inquirer said "Passive solar home". And there eare many places where that's a good idea, cold or no. I happen to live in the mountainous end of NC, and in January and February, the only thing I see outside is white and cold - not your usual picture of hell..... (I kinda like the change of seasons - the best of both worlds ) Solar is really big here, and most anybody can benefit from well-designed energy-efficient building. Sorry Bart - I don't know of the Enertia people, but if you find out, let me know.... ---------Karlene Bell > From: sbtauto@juno.com > To: brn3a@virginia.edu > Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org > > Solar heating a home in the South is like using an electric heater in > Hell. > >1 > >Does anyone have experience with Enertia Passive Solar Homes ( > >http://www.enertia.com )? They are a builder of kit type passive > >solar envelope homes and are located in North Carolina. Any > >comments on their building methods and their science would be > >appreciated. > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 2 19:13:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA22005 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 19:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA20416; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 19:00:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:56:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA20068 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:56:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20064 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 18:56:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811022356.SAA20064@solstice.crest.org> Received: from dialin2065.cstone.net by mail.virginia.edu id aa20940; 2 Nov 98 19:08 EST X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 19:09:38 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Homes From: Bart Nathan To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4774 Actually, the company is in NC, but I live in the mountains of Virginia. Although it is not North Dakota here, we do get cold winters. The heating season is generally from Nov-March and although I am just beginning to investigate passive solar homes, I think the investment would be sound. Additionally, the Enertia homes web site claims that the homes are able to cool in the summer. Not sure about that one, but interesting. Thanks for all the input. Bart Nathan ---------- >From: Wayne Jones >To: sbtauto@juno.com >Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Homes >Date: Mon, Nov 2, 1998, 5:36 PM > >On the contrary, using good passive solar design in our temperate climate in >North Carolina makes very good sense. We have a substantial heating season, >with extreme cold at times as does the rest of the south. (I have been in >ice storms and frigid cold temperatures in Texas more frequently than I have >in North Carolina!) > >The point is that with intelligent solar design, you can offset a large >percentage of the heating load in the winter, while at the same time >providing a design that reduces the cooling load in the summer. This is the >art of passive solar design in this climate. Correct orientation of the >building and glazing, positioning and sizing of overhangs, and amount of >mass in the building are all components of a well designed solar building. > >For the commercial sector, it makes as much or more sense to use (solar) >daylighting in the south to offset the increased cooling and electrical load >by electrical lighting. Commercial buildings here rarely use heating >because of the internal loads. Ironically, this use of solar is most >valuable in the summer. > >This issue is a little more complex than you think. > >Wayne Jones >past Chair of the North Carolina Solar Energy Association > >sbtauto@juno.com wrote: > >> I don't have any info on this particular product but when I consider >> their location it makes me wonder what they are thinking. >> >> Solar heating a home in the South is like using an electric heater in >> Hell. > >-- >Brown and Jones, Architects >16 N. Boylan Ave. >Raleigh, NC 27603 >(919) 831-2625 FAX 831-2626 > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 2 23:24:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA24904 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:24:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA01474; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:10:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:06:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA01206 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:06:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from kalessin.southern.co.nz (kalessin.southern.co.nz [202.37.188.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA01202 for ; Mon, 2 Nov 1998 23:06:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (mail@localhost) by kalessin.southern.co.nz (8.8.5/8.6.6.Beta6) id RAA04449; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:17:10 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from ppp073.southern.co.nz(202.37.189.73) by kalessin.southern.co.nz via smap (V2.0) id xma003895; Tue, 3 Nov 98 17:07:58 +1300 X-Sender: bywateri@southern.co.nz Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 17:09:48 +1200 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: bywateri@convertech.co.nz (Ian Bywater) Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Homes Cc: Bart Nathan , bucrl@clear.net.nz Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4775 Hi Bart and others, I can vouch for passive solar design having had one built. Think of the mass of the building and relate it to a flywheel. The thermal mass of the building cannot alter easily; it neither overheats nor undercools quickly. Where I live in Christchurch, New Zealand, the climate is cool temperate and our thermograph records show the house with little or no additional heat source was trending down to a 24 hour low of 15 deg.C (60 deg.F). Time to pull on a wool jersey but not an ice-box! I have limited supplies of a colour brochure on the house and its energy efficiency systems, if anyone is interested, or you can email my architect direct , Roger Buck & Associates. Ian Bywater ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 3 08:39:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA29521 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:39:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA18922; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:17:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA18593 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:17:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (wfntnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.37.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA18584 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:16:59 -0500 (EST) From: walshj@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 852566B1.0049F674 ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:27:52 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: dsaum@infiltec.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <852566B1.0048D5B5.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:27:48 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Power (kwh) meter source? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4776 Brultech Research makes a good meter in the $200 range. The ECM-200si is commonly used in this part of the country in several utility programs. Try http://brultech.com. Pacific Science and Technologies makes Line Logger (800-388-0770), which our head techie guy likes. Not sure of the costs. Also Summit Technologies (510-944-1212) makes a high end meter that that I have not seen. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 3 08:40:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA29531 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:40:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA19608; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:25:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:21:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA18900 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:21:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA18893 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:21:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-15-222.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.130.222]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA27307; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:32:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:36:51 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0705.1A75A0E0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Sarah Holland'" , "'EBS Green Building Chat Group'" Subject: GBlist: RE: linoleum on slabs Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:34:51 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4777 Being an "all wet" kind of a guy, I of course noted on the list that most of similiar flooring failures I'd seen had been related to moisture, not the adhesive. It appears that this is indeed the case in your unhappy predicament. An interesting point is that the bubbling was worst or first near the radiators -- the heat from the pipes increases the vapour pressure of the water in the porous materials and would be expected to cause the worst bubbling. I am writing two make 2 points 1) As I've been heard to whine many times, unless you are very sure that you have a sry site (eg desert or well above grade or possible 100 year flood levels) never place storage materials ABOVE the vapour barrier below a slab (or even below a wood floor in a crawl space). Storage materials include all fine pored materials like sand, earth, clay, anything powdery. Pea gravel and crushed stone, XPS, etc are OK. Then make sure that there are open (sort of unsealed) laps in the seams of the poly or small number of small holes in the poly (usual by acident). Why all this fuss? Becuase if the water table rises, a pipe bursts, a small flood occurs and water flows in between the poly and the slab, it will be held in the sand/crushings etc until it evaporates abd diffuses away. This diffusive drying can take a long long time with poly below. This scenario occured in spades with your design -- the 16" of crushings are likely below the water table in spring, and will definitely absorb a large amount of water from the concrete pour. I have seen problems with as little as 2" of sand between the slab and poly. To track down the moisture source I would check the relationship of the poly level to the peak short-term water table level, the perfection of any drain, heating or plumbing pipes (eg, a small drip in a pipe will slowly fill the 16" of crushings with water over a month or three), failed flashings that directed rain or snow melt nelow the slab etc. The source must be large, liquid, but may be a small rate. What should others do in a new design situtation? The poly and XPS should be moved up to directly below the slab (which slightly reduces the thermal storage capacity) or all material above the XPS/poly should be larger, with a minimum 1/16" particle size, preferably an average size of more than about 3/8". But FEW FINES to allow water to be stored in the small pores formed between the small particles. This is often called a "free draining material" but usually road gravel has too many fines to work (and this explains why it can still suffer frost damage). >We are conducting some investigations to determine if ground water or some > other outside source is the culprit. However our theory is that some > moisture accumulated above the vapor retarder during construction (bleed > water from the concrete, a bit of rain, etc.). This water vapor migrated > very slowly > through the fill and the slab. Our geotechnical engineer and others say it > is not unreasonable to assume that it may take as long as eight months for > vapor to migrate through a slab. If that is true than moisture tests > conducted at the time of installation are nearly meaningless. 2). As usual, the mositure physics are not being well explained or understood by the design professionals. Be careful of the semantics- liquid water can wick up through the crushings and into the slab, but vapour diffuses through both. You need not have any capillary flow (wicking) to have the problems you describe. Unless there is a huge amount of water in the crushings (eg, water can literally be squeezed from the crushings) the dominant moisture transport mechanism will be vapour diffusion. The rate at which moisture diffuses from the slab itself depends on the difference in vapour pressure between the slab and the interior air -- which is a function of many things like MC of the slab, interior RH, and temperature of the slab and air. If the moisture source is water stored in the soil, (likely in your case), the drying will be driven by the vapour pressure of the water in the crushings (a function only of the crushung temperature) and the interior vapour pressure (interior temp and RH) and restrcted by the vapour resistance of the slab (and any coverings). The vapour resistance of a 6" slab is highly variable, but it is quite low in any case. The time it takes vapour to diffuse through the slab might be months to many years (the latter is highly likely). The drying can be accelrrated very little by a dehumidifier (perhaps reducing the drying time by a factor of 30 to 50%). Some how blowing interior or warm air into/through the crushings would accelerate drying, but it unlikely to be possible. If useful, can calculate a range of the time required given more info about the site and assembly. > If vapor can and does migrate through slabs at such a slow rate, then it > seems that linoleum should not be installed unless the slab is two years > old. Even so our geotechnical engineer says that about 95% of all slabs > he has observed have a moisture content of more than 3.5 lbs per 1000s.f./24 First, water should be kept from below the slab. If the water is only in the slab, the poly test will show if the slab is ready in almost every case. The evaporation rate values are very probelmatic -- if you do the test understanding the drying physics, I can get values of less than 3.5, but these are as artificial as most of the calcium chloride tests. I am not sure how sensitive linoleum really is to moisture, but in many cases I think you can dry it enogh. Radiant heat in the floor will of ocurse dramatially dry the slab. Placing the slab on rigid glass or rock wool and ignoring the poly is one almost sure fire way to dry the slab in climates with cool winters. This is one solution the Swedes have used to avoid flooring problems in their sometimes difficult conditions. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 3 08:40:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA29532 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:40:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA19696; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:25:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:21:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA18948 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:21:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA18938 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:21:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-15-222.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.130.222]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA27398; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:33:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:37:03 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0705.217FB100.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'FUnger@aol.com'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Foundation water/moisture control Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:35:02 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4778 Any solution should include a drainage layer, preferably insulating, with great care in the footing drain. The secondary capillary break material could be a polymer modified cement parge, available from many companies like Sto, Dryvit, and countless others. Xypex will also fulfill this function and is a pure mineral-based material. On Sunday, November 01, 1998 4:48 PM, FUnger@aol.com [SMTP:FUnger@aol.com] wrote: > What systems are you folks finding effective for waterproofing/damproofing > concrete foundations, especially in he winter when freezing conditions may > hamper the application of some water based products? I've been trying several > systems and products and haven't found the perfect answer yet. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 3 08:42:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA29558 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:42:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA20010; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:28:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:24:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA19504 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:24:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA19490 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:24:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-15-222.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.130.222]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA27208; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:32:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 08:36:31 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0705.0EDF51E0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'wayne_jones@ntwrks.com'" , "sbtauto@juno.com" Cc: "brn3a@virginia.edu" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Passive Solar Homes Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 20:44:48 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4779 I would agree -- passive solar design, wehter for heating or cooling is very often a good design strategy in almost all parts of the world. Juding by the climate, in North Carolina I would think the goal of a passive solar design would be to reduce cooling load and replace 3/4 of the annual heating load by passive solar means. A house desinged for passive heating would by its nature reduce the AC load of the normal climate insensitive homes I see in North Carolina. On Monday, November 02, 1998 5:37 PM, Wayne Jones [SMTP:wayne_jones@ntwrks.com] wrote: > On the contrary, using good passive solar design in our temperate climate in > North Carolina makes very good sense. We have a substantial heating season, > with extreme cold at times as does the rest of the south. (I have been in > ice storms and frigid cold temperatures in Texas more frequently than I have > in North Carolina!) ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 3 10:12:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01867 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:12:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24461; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:58:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:53:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24025 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:53:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24004 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:53:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.137.73.97] (henyusr0-a33.herd.tds.net [208.137.73.97]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA16604; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:05:18 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:02:57 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: GBlist: Power (kwh) meter source? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4780 David asked: "Does anyone have a source for an inexpensive power meter that could be used to measure the average electric energy consumption of home applicances like refrigerators?" Yes, and by coincidence I just saw this meter yesterday as I was giving a tour of our photovoltaic and micro-hydro powered homes. A local university professor of Environmental Science had just purchased one of these for work in his classes on energy. I haven't tried it yet but it looks good and was very favorably reviewed in Home Power Magazine. It's the Brand Electronics Digital Power Meter and measures real power from 1 to 1850 watts, and power used from 1 watt-hour to 9999 kilowatt-hours. All for only $150 including shipping. You just plug it into the wall and then plug the appliance you want to check into the meter. They also have a more advanced model that does more. Contact them at: http://www.mint.net/~ebrand/ 1-888-433-6600 1-207-549-3401 Brand Electronics 421 Hilton Rd. Whitefield, Me 04353 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 3 10:18:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01977 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:18:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24951; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:04:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:58:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24405 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:58:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24395; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:58:23 -0500 (EST) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id REJSa09167; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:06:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8110eb2.363f1bf4@aol.com> Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:06:28 EST To: sbtauto@juno.com, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, brn3a@virginia.edu Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Homes Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4781 In a message dated 11/2/98 12:27:58 PM, sbtauto@juno.com wrote: <> Not true, though one must be assiduous in the design of overhangs, etc. Homes need to be heated in Florida, well almost to Miami, in winter. In northern Florida at Jacksonville the rule of thumb is that the heating load equals the cooling load. My own preference is to be surrounded by giant trees, as I am, and use a bit of wood to run a woodstove. I might use 1/2 cord a year here in N Central Florida but not all that is necessary, by the standards I used when I lived in Massachusetts. However the heat and humidity of summer will rot many species of firewood anyway, so I may as well burn it while it is sound (and not feeding termites.) One can save quite a bit of energy using the basic energyconservation techiques common in the cold areas, e.g. six-inch stud walls filled with insulation, very tight construction, accepting low-angle winter sun, etc. Vapor barriers, controversial anyway, are silly where heating loads equal cooling loads. Fortunately, both heating and cooling dehumidify. Further south, vapor barriers on the exterior serve well, which is all to the good as many people live in mobile homes which have vapor-barrier siding, like it or not. I'm not sure where the idea of single-story houses came from, but a tall building will provide free ventillation, chimney like, especially if you have the good sense to take your incoming air from the coolest sector. We have been favoring the hickory trees here because they have a minimal decduous shadow but leaf out to make fairly dense shade with very high rates of transpiration in the growing season. Dante, who knew as much about Hell as anyone, defined it as progressively colder, so that the innermost level was virtually arctic. But then, he was from sunny Italy. I guess so long as our ideas of hell are like somewhere else, we will be reasonably content where we are. Note that it can get to subzero F temperatures in the South, e.g. Georgia, in the upland areas. I recall actual frozen ground in Dahlonega, Georgia, after our landlord, from Maine originally, told me that it didn't happen. It lasted only 2 or 3 weeks, but it wasn't just honeycomb, it was frozen, sans benefit of snow insulation. Remember that coming off our summers, a drop to the 40's (F), as has already happened here in N Central Florida, feels damn cold. Cold as Hell. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 3 10:25:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02330 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:25:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25463; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:12:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:08:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25127 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:08:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25122 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:08:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DS5X6FYV; Tue, 03 Nov 1998 10:19:57 EST To: wayne_jones@ntwrks.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 10:20:13 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Homes Message-ID: <19981103.102314.9278.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <19981102.111627.-177467.0.sbtauto@juno.com> <363E3401.BAFCCAEF@ntwrks.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-30,35-36,38-42 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4782 On Mon, 02 Nov 1998 17:36:49 -0500 Wayne Jones writes: >On the contrary, using good passive solar design in our temperate >climate in >North Carolina makes very good sense. We have a substantial heating >season, >with extreme cold at times as does the rest of the south. (I have >been in >ice storms and frigid cold temperatures in Texas more frequently than >I have >in North Carolina!) >. > >For the commercial sector, it makes as much or more sense to use >(solar) >daylighting in the south to offset the increased cooling and >electrical load > > >This issue is a little more complex than you think. > >Wayne Jones >past Chair of the North Carolina Solar Energy Association > >. >______________________________________________________________________ > > Wayne, I doubt you have ever been in any winter storms in S. Florida - and we are geographically as south as you can get. Be careful about making gross generalizations - Like the gentleman from Louisiana, our winters only require a sweater for a couple of weeks and the only way you could freeze here is in a commercial walk-in freezer. Thermal mass notwithstanding, the intense heat and humidity here would make attempts at passive solar fell like Hell on Earth. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 3 12:56:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA05460 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:56:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05043; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:42:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:38:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04692 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:38:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04685 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:38:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip121.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.121]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA01066; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:50:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981103055257.0099bb88@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 00:52:57 -0500 To: dsaum@infiltec.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Power (kwh) meter source? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4783 At 10:07 AM 11/2/1998 -0500, David Saum wrote: >Does anyone have a source for an inexpensive >power meter ... Dave - I'm using Onset's HOBO H8, a four channel logger ($95) with a 20 amp current transformer ($84). Temp sensors are $25 & we find them useful as well. http://www.onsetcomp.com PS: Pacific Science & Tech now has their TOU SmartLoggers on 1/2 price sale ($158). http://www.pacscitech.com best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel/fax 516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 3 13:09:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA05727 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:09:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05850; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:54:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:50:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05565 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05561 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:50:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.147] (rkd017.acadia.net [205.217.217.147]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA20588 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:03:23 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 13:01:51 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: linoleum on slabs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4784 Dear John Straube, Thanks for your insights into our situation with linoluem on the concrete slab. Many of your comments were very helpful. Some are contradicted by other authorities, and some are a misinterpretation of what we wrote, due, no doubt, to our imprecise language. What strikes me is that if folks of your professional caliber can give contradictory advice, then we have the makings of a very interesting subject to explore. Specifically, you'll find that many other building professionals, including the American Concrete Institute, recommend placing insulation and vapor retarder below the compacted fill, not above it. They further recommend that a 2 inch layer of compacted sand be placed at the top of the compacted fill. I'm not writing this to disparage anything you wrote, but to point out that there's the makings of an interesting discussion on this topic. And the more we investigate, the more we think that this is a HUGE topic. Thanks again for your insights. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 3 14:34:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA07785 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:34:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11772; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:20:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:16:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA11309 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:16:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from swiss.direct.ca (swiss.direct.ca [199.60.229.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11298 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:16:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from reg-53-0129.direct.ca ([216.66.142.29] helo=kadulski) by swiss.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 0zam7e-0002k9-00; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 11:28:11 -0800 From: "Richard Kadulski" To: Cc: Subject: GBlist: Passive Solar Homes Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:46:28 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4785 Bart Nathan asked "Does anyone have experience with Enertia Passive Solar Homes ( http://www.enertia.com )? They are a builder of kit type passive solar envelope homes and are located in North Carolina. Any comments on their building methods and their science would be appreciated." I took a quick look at their site, and it confirmed my suspicion - this is the double envelope approach that received some attention a few years ago. I see that now they are in effect selling prefab kits - but these are solid wood (which is an excessive use of the resource). In effect, you are not building one house, but two - one inside another. More importantly, there are legitimate concerns about the health and safety of these homes as they are couple the basement or under house crawl space with the envelope, raising concerns about moisture and mold control. In addition, there are questions if the science really works the way they claim. The science is not as claimed - they may provide a functioning building simply because of the extra insulation afforded, careful siting and design for solar. I don't know what sort of mionitoring was ever done on these houses - that would ultimately be proof of the concept. I notice that their web site doesn't really talk about any sceintific monitoring. [I think it was Energy Design Update - maybe others also - that did an engineering critique of the concept which showed all is not as it seems]. I seem to recall anectodal information that there were severe moisture and mold problems with some houses - it may be an issue of local geography and climate. (In a hot humid climate, drawing air into a cool basement/crawl space will ensure moisture deposition thus increasing a pool of water that could be a problem). In sum - as others have noted - passive solar design is always beneficial, but it must be appropriate to the location. The physics must also be considered to avoid predictable performance problems. ******************************** Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax: 604-689-1841 "Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design." Editor: Solplan Review: independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ****************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 3 14:58:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA08437 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:58:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13358; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:42:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:38:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12874 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:38:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12870 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 14:38:37 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ946894; Tue, 3 Nov 98 12:48:16 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA126226; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:48:54 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 12:48:54 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: walshj@NU.COM Cc: dsaum@infiltec.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Power (kwh) meter source? In-Reply-To: <852566B1.0048D5B5.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4786 We have been using the Brultech ECM-2000 (energy consumption monitor) for all our monitoring. It has 2 channels.It reads out accumulated kwh, watts and accumulated $.We are now monitoring an office tower to see if we replaced each desktop computer with notebooks, what kind of power reductions we may see. The calculations are simple, but the real world dynamics of actual people using their desktops with sleep mode etc. is different. Then we can find our reduced utility loads, bills and greenhouse gas emissions. Jorg Ostrowski ________________________________________________________________________ On Tue, 3 Nov 1998 walshj@NU.COM wrote: > > Brultech Research makes a good meter in the $200 range. The ECM-200si is > commonly used in this part of the country in several utility programs. Try > http://brultech.com. Pacific Science and Technologies makes Line Logger > (800-388-0770), which our head techie guy likes. Not sure of the costs. > Also Summit Technologies (510-944-1212) makes a high end meter that that I > have not seen. > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 3 23:20:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA16934 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:20:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA11840; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:07:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:03:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11388 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:03:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11381 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:03:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-24-188.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.188]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA02124; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:14:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:19:02 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0780.57D15EE0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'David M. Foley'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: RE: linoleum on slabs Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:10:49 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4787 On Tuesday, November 03, 1998 12:02 PM, David M. Foley [SMTP:dmfoley@acadia.net] wrote: > slab. Many of your comments were very helpful. Some are contradicted by > other authorities, and some are a misinterpretation of what we wrote, due, > no doubt, to our imprecise language. What strikes me is that if folks of > your professional caliber can give contradictory advice, then we have the > makings of a very interesting subject to explore. Specifically, you'll > find that many other building professionals, including the American > Concrete Institute, recommend placing insulation and vapor retarder below > the compacted fill, not above it. Professionals may provide contradictory recommendations, but I, as a consultant, always explain why I do what I do to my clients. Please ask ACI for the rationale for their recommendations and then ask then how they handle the possibility of flood water. The ACI has some good reasons for its recommendations, but they do not include a building science analysis. But the ACI is made up primarily of cement/concrete specialists and structural engineers -- not building scientists. >They further recommend that a 2 inch > layer of compacted sand be placed at the top of the compacted fill. I'm > not writing this to disparage anything you wrote, but to point out that > there's the makings of an interesting discussion on this topic. And the This is a good and interesting topic. What I suggested is physically true, and I think it is great that we are discussing what should be done. But I implore you, in this and other issues, do not beleive the ACI because it is the ACI, or me because I have a PhD in building science. Understand the mechanisms and believe the reasons provided by each person on the merits of that argument, not on some implied value of the credentials. If something I have recommended or said doesnt make sense., please ask me to explain or defend it! Its the only way I can learn too. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 4 00:02:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA17491 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 00:02:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA13329; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:49:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:44:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA13010 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:44:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA13006 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:44:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip23.ivnet.net [206.101.73.183]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07903; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 19:47:18 -0800 Message-ID: <363FDD7E.7D539DF2@ivnet.net> Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 20:52:14 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" CC: "'David M. Foley'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: linoleum on slabs References: <01BE0780.57D15EE0.jfstraube@golden.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4788 The American Concrete Institute recommends placing insulation and vapor retarder below the compacted fill, not above it. Please ask ACI for the rationale for their recommendations and then ask then how they handle the possibility of flood water. But the ACI is made up primarily of cement/concrete specialists and structural engineers -- not building scientists. They further recommend that a 2 inch layer of compacted sand be placed at the top of the compacted fill. My understanding is that this reccomendation is to ensure even curing of the concrete slab. The sand below the concrete helps to absorb some of the water from the bottom of slab; this balances water lost on the top of the slab by evaporation. This promotes even shrinkage, so fewer and smaller cracks. But I'm neither a structural engineer nor a building scientist. I'm just repeating what I've been told and trying to make sense out it all. Thank you both for your insights. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 4 00:14:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA17674 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 00:14:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA14223; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 00:01:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:58:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA13837 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:57:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA13825 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:57:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip23.ivnet.net [206.101.73.183]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA08040 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 20:00:58 -0800 Message-ID: <363FE0AD.DD4906BE@ivnet.net> Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 21:05:50 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: termites References: <01BE0780.57D15EE0.jfstraube@golden.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4789 I don't want to seem to be one to beat to death an old termite here, but I've got a project with lot of subterranean termites that are munchin away at this house. Which is owned by a slightly asthamtic EartFirst!er who would prefer not to use lots of toxic stuff in the soil. My thought is to 1. eliminate any framing to earth contact, 2. to treat the wood closest to the ground with a borate-based termiticide, 3. and then I'm wondering if some kind of bait could be used to tempt the bugs to bring the goodies back to poison the nest? Something like the Terro ant stuff which was mentioned last spring? Put it on some juicy bit of wood, half-buried in the dirt? Is this just a dumb idea? My customer thinks that the low toxicity of the borates would be OK. They are expensive, though. $100/gallon Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 4 01:11:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA18330 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 01:11:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA16975; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 00:58:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Nov 1998 00:54:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA16592 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 00:54:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA16588 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 00:54:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 23865 invoked by alias); 4 Nov 1998 06:06:30 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 23846 invoked by uid 0); 4 Nov 1998 06:06:29 -0000 Received: from kdialup102.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.180.241.102) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 4 Nov 1998 06:06:29 -0000 Message-ID: <000101be07b9$63ebe220$66f1b4d1@h5n5y7> From: "Peter F. Alspach" To: "Green building list" Subject: GBlist: Sealant? Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:07:22 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4790 I am curious if there is a sealant available to safely seal wood that has already been treated with nasties like creosote to prevent off-gassing? The application would be using recycled lumber (old telephone poles or the like). Is such a product out there, or is that wood permanently toxic? Thanks, Peter Alspach jupiterpete@uswest.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 4 03:24:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA19194 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 03:24:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA21334; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 03:11:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Nov 1998 03:07:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA21051 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 03:07:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (mail-sv3.mcmail.com [195.44.0.153] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA21046 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 03:07:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from deepthought ([195.44.0.153]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.117.11); Wed, 4 Nov 1998 07:53:09 +0000 From: Bruce To: CC: "'David M. Foley'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by sun2.mcmail.com (9.9.9/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA24246; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 04:57:09 GMT Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA13113; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:44:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA13010 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:44:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA13006 for ; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 23:44:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip23.ivnet.net [206.101.73.183]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07903; Tue, 3 Nov 1998 19:47:18 -0800 Message-ID: <363FDD7E.7D539DF2@ivnet.net> Date: Tue, 03 Nov 1998 20:52:14 -0800 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) References: <01BE0780.57D15EE0.jfstraube@golden.net> X-UIDL: d3ae65aa6ca1aa105026f6715bdb2713 Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: linoleum on slabs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4791 The American Concrete Institute recommends placing insulation and vapor retarder below the compacted fill, not above it. Please ask ACI for the rationale for their recommendations and then ask then how they handle the possibility of flood water. But the ACI is made up primarily of cement/concrete specialists and structural engineers -- not building scientists. They further recommend that a 2 inch layer of compacted sand be placed at the top of the compacted fill. My understanding is that this reccomendation is to ensure even curing of the concrete slab. The sand below the concrete helps to absorb some of the water from the bottom of slab; this balances water lost on the top of the slab by evaporation. This promotes even shrinkage, so fewer and smaller cracks. But I'm neither a structural engineer nor a building scientist. I'm just repeating what I've been told and trying to make sense out it all. Thank you both for your insights. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 4 07:30:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA20611 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 07:30:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA28029; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 07:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Nov 1998 07:13:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA27779 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 07:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from idefix.arch.chalmers.se (idefix.arch.chalmers.se [129.16.160.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA27773 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 07:13:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from stefan (a82.arch.chalmers.se [129.16.162.106]) by idefix.arch.chalmers.se (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA01126 for ; Wed, 04 Nov 1998 13:25:15 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981104132343.0069dd48@arch.chalmers.se> X-Sender: wallner@arch.chalmers.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 13:23:51 +0100 To: From: Stefan Wallner Subject: GBlist: LCA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id HAA27775 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4792 Hello greenbuilders I got a mail from this list some time ago about an easier way of making a LCA. Since my computer crashed I haven´t got it any longer (when I need it...). Have YOU got it, or know where I can find info. Kind regards Stefan Wallner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Chalmers University of Technology telephone +46 31 772 23 78 Department of Building Design telefax +46 31 772 23 71 S-412 96 Gothenburg, Sweden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 4 09:08:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21583 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 09:08:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01331; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:55:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:51:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00986 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:51:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00982 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:51:29 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ996737; Wed, 4 Nov 98 07:01:51 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA104352; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 07:02:09 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 07:02:09 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: "Peter F. Alspach" Cc: Green building list Subject: Re: GBlist: Sealant? In-Reply-To: <000101be07b9$63ebe220$66f1b4d1@h5n5y7> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4793 You said:"I am curious if there is a sealant available to safely seal wood that has already been treated with nasties like creosote to prevent off- gassing? The application would be using recycled lumber (old telephone poles or the like). Is such a product out there, or is that wood permanently toxic?" ______________________________________________________________________________ Call Sam Goldberg of AFM at (619)239-0321 or anyone at (714) 781-6860 re:"Lock-In" New Wood Sealer. Although we have used this product and many other AFM products, we have never used it to cover creosote. If you want professional advice, I would strongly recommend forgetting those recycled timbers inside or outside. You cannot afford to compromise health and safety. Bandages are a bad solution to a bad idea on a banned product. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 4 11:19:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24725 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:19:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09691; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:05:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:01:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09126 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:01:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09119 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:01:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id KAA0000026968; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 10:13:41 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981104161632.0073ada0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 10:16:32 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: water heater blankets Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4794 My Bradford White water heater supplier is telling me that I will increase the efficiency of a water heater "considerably" if I put a blanket around it (and could therefore rationalize a less expensive heater). To what degree the efficiency improves of course he doesn't know. Since propane water heaters are not that efficient to begin with, the difference in cost between a super efficient one and a less efficient one could make a difference to me. After the first six months to a year, this heater would be not be regularly used since it will be in a cabin not 300 yards from a main house. My plan would be to turn it off when not in use except during very cold times when it would left on at minimum temp to prevent freezing. Any comments? I am particularly interested in the question of the value of insulating the outside of the tank. Know this is promoted, but are there any studies on the difference it makes? Thanks Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 4 11:19:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24729 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:19:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09688; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:05:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:00:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08972 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:00:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08965 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:00:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:10:21 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01DBEA@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: "low-e" paint Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:10:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4795 i thought i saw a couple posts about "low-e" paint (radiant barrier, just like windows...not to be confused with low-perm or vapor barrier primers) several months ago. i've been unable to locate these posts, including the one that gave a plausible explanation of why these wouldn't be useful. could anyone direct me to the previous posts OR chime in with thoughts on these "low-e" paints? (Radiance is one brand.) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 4 11:44:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25706 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:44:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11394; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:31:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:27:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10947 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:27:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10936 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:27:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-82-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.82]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19321 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:41:36 -0500 Message-ID: <36408329.6233BA5E@together.net> Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 11:39:05 -0500 From: Thomas Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,nl MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: water heater blankets References: <1.5.4.32.19981104161632.0073ada0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4796 For this frequently unoccupied application, an instantaneous propane water heater may be worthy of consideration. Tom Anderson South Burlington, Vermont "David F. Lambertson" wrote: > My Bradford White water heater supplier is telling me that I will increase > the efficiency of a water heater "considerably" if I put a blanket around it > (and could therefore rationalize a less expensive heater). To what degree > the efficiency improves of course he doesn't know. Since propane water > heaters are not that efficient to begin with, the difference in cost between > a super efficient one and a less efficient one could make a difference to > me. After the first six months to a year, this heater would be not be > regularly used since it will be in a cabin not 300 yards from a main house. > My plan would be to turn it off when not in use except during very cold > times when it would left on at minimum temp to prevent freezing. Any > comments? I am particularly interested in the question of the value of > insulating the outside of the tank. Know this is promoted, but are there > any studies on the difference it makes? > Thanks Sacie Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 4 16:36:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA03462 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:36:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00189; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:22:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:18:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA29814 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:18:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29810 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:18:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.198.23.14] (uA1-a13.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.14]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA21385 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:29:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:29:52 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: uA1-a13.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.14] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 16:29:52 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: closing up buildings for winter Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4797 Hi folks, I am interested in folks thoughts on the problems associated with closing up buildings for the winter in cold climates, and whether there is any written guidance for doing it safely. I'd be grateful for anything you have to offer. - Terry Terry M. Brennan Camroden Associates 7240 East Carter Road Westmoreland, New York 13490 315-336-7955 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 4 18:21:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA06149 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05707; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:08:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:04:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05295 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:04:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.cityweb.de (mail1.cityweb.de [193.189.224.217]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05288 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:04:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from cityweb.de (ess8-m103-25.pool.cww.de [195.71.103.25]) by mail1.cityweb.de (8.9.1/8.9.1/powered by Telemedia) with ESMTP id AAA16244; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:16:00 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3640DFA0.633206F5@cityweb.de> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 00:13:41 +0100 From: Vernon LeCount Reply-To: vernonlecount@cityweb.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Brennan CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: closing up buildings for winter References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4798 Terry Brennan wrote: > I am interested in folks thoughts on the problems associated with closing > up buildings for the winter in cold climates... I closed a house down in Maine in winter for many years. I would drain the water from plumbing and heating systems, blew out the hot and cold water lines with an air compressor, poured a little non-toxic antifreeze down any sink or bath tub that had a j-trap that might hold water, tilted the washing machine to remove the water from the pump, left frig door open, took batteries out of smoke detectors, put marine anti-varnishing solution in all gasoline motors (lawn mowers, generator), put all keepsakes of personal value in a closet and sheetrocked over closet door so that it couldn't be found (hung a picture on the sheetrock), turned off propane at the tank, covered furniture with old sheets and paid a neighbor to come by occasionally and check the place in case a window got broken by wind or tree branches. Vernon LeCount Essen, Germany ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 4 22:14:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA08916 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 22:14:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16655; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 22:01:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:57:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16325 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:57:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16321 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:57:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.118] (rkd026.acadia.net [208.244.128.50]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA04570 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 22:10:32 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 22:08:44 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: RE: GBlist: RE: linoleum on slabs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4799 John, Thanks for all of your comments and insights. I have immense respect for your work and knowledge, and I admire that you back your observations with good science and reasoning. In this particular building, we're virtually certain that no flood water has infiltrated the under-slab fill, i.e., the seasonal water table has never reached the level of the compacted fill beneath the slab. We now believe that at least two things are occuring: first, moisture trapped in the underslab fill during construction is migrating as vapor through the slab and being trapped by the linoleum. We believe that the amount is not great, but is enough to cause the water-based adhesive beneath the linoleum to fail. Second, we think that the vapor retarder is not capable of stopping as much vapor diffusion from the soil below as we'd like. We will never again allow a client to talk us into saving $700 or $800 (American) by substituting 6-mil polyethylene for a more substantial vapor retarder, such as Sisalkraft, Plybar and other "heavy-duty" products. We didn't use a sealant on the concrete because Forbo, the linoleum manufacturer, will not warrant their product if you use any additive, accelerant, plasticizer or sealant in the slab. We did not place the the vapor retarder at the top of the fill because we know that you get poor concrete if bleed water can't dissipate, and workers in the field will poke holes in the vapor retarder by accident or on purpose, if placed at the top. Placing the vapor retarder at the top contradicts established practice in the field, and the recommendations of the American Concrete Institute for proper concrete slab construction. We did not count on two things: that the amount of water retained in the underslab fill could cause linoleum to fail, and that the flooring installer would not follow established procedure and conduct a calcium chloride test prior to installation. But even if he had done the test, it would have been meaningless: we know from a moisture meter, and from poly taped to the slab at that time, that the slab was dry when the flooring was installed. We were told that it takes about 8 months for moisture retained in underslab fill to diffuse to the top of a 6 inch slab, and we began to see problems with the flooring about 8 months after installation. Based on the experience, until convinced otherwise, we will not put anything directly on a concrete slab in contact with the ground except ceramic tiles on a latex-modified thinset mortar (no mastic). Any other flooring will either be on a product like Seal-Flex or Floor Seal, or will be on plywood on top of a vapor retarder placed on top of the slab. We will not place a vapor retarder directly beneath the concrete, because although it theoretically could slow vapor transmission, it affects the quality of the concrete, and there's too much risk for significant tearing and puncturing in the field. But what about other folks? Any tips, horror stories, observations? We've recently learned that concrete slab remediation and repair work, including flooring replacement, is about a $2 billion (U.S.) a year industry in the United States alone. So this is a huge, barely mentioned problem. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 4 23:59:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA10010 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:59:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21247; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:44:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:40:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA20978 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:40:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20969 for ; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:40:36 -0500 (EST) received: from acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.206) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ818668; Wed, 4 Nov 98 21:50:18 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA117368; Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:50:24 -0700 Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:50:24 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Cc: "David M. Foley" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: redundant bathrooms In-Reply-To: <363AE174.2C6A@dial.pipex.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4800 On the above topics, since our home/office does not have a Canadian or US bathroom, we only have 1.5 bathrooms with a far better return-on-investment then 2 or 3 bathrooms. The lower main floor bathroom is found in countries such Turkey, Philippines,Argentina, etc. where the tiled shower area is the same room for (ultra-low flush) toilet and sink. Even if we did not have our cotton (shower) curtain, it does not matter if the other 2 fixtures gets wet. Anyway it also works well for wheelchairs and also serves (when dry) as a short cut to other parts of the house. Our upper floor bathroom is a typical European bathroom with one compartment for the (waterless) toilet an open semi-private area with 2 (reused) sinks and a third compartment for the (refurbished) cast iron tub. I have never heard of any justification for a 3-fixture bathroom where it only takes 1 person to occupy 3 fixtures while other wait or build another bathroom or two for each person of the house? This is just as strange as putting drinking water into their toilet bowls eventhough most people still do not use it for drinking! North America sure seems overdeveloped. Jorg Ostrowski __________________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 31 Oct 1998, Mark Bigland-Pritchard wrote: > > David M. Foley wrote: > > ...In the United States: > > Houses with two-and-a-half or more baths: > > In 1971: 36% > > In 1996: 81%... > > This grossly impoverished Brit wonders how he has managed all his life > to cope with living in single-bath households. (Indeed, as a student at > Cambridge, I had to walk across two large courtyards to get to the > bathroom...) > > What I don't understand, though is what you people do with the > half-a-bath! > > Mark the dirt-encrusted > Bristol, England > hyphen@dial.pipex.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 5 02:58:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA11397 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 02:58:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA27627; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 02:44:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Nov 1998 02:40:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA27254 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 02:40:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA27250; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 02:40:25 -0500 (EST) From: Strawnet@aol.com Received: from Strawnet@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1HYBa10656; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 02:50:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4e28c3b4.364158d1@aol.com> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 02:50:41 EST To: strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: ICBO's Building Standards Magazine Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Claris Emailer v1.0 sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4801 I posted this to both listserves yesterday and it has not shown up on either - at least in the digest mode that I get. I was in Dana Point, California today to present at the National Conference of States on Building Codes and Standards (NCSBCS)/National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST)/Housing and Urban Development (HUD) Joint Technical and Research Conference. All went well there, plus I got my first look at the Building Standards magazine with the alternative materials and methods focus that I helped make happen and it easily exceeded my expectations. It is a beautiful thing to behold. They did a great job on it. Lots of good folks were at the meeting there and ICBO was sending a box or two of the magazines down to the conference so that people attending would get a copy of it. I talked with Bill Tangye, CEO of the Southern Building Code Congress International about the issue and he had looked it over and was fairly enthusiastic about it and also very open to the need to be responding to the larger global resource, environmental and social/cultural issues related to building. It was very positive. So was my conversation with Jon Traw, President of ICBO, Bob Wible, Director of NCSBCS, and Dave Engel from HUD who moderated the plenary panel I was on with Nader Khalili this morning. Bob Fowler and Roy Fewell were also there and very supportive of our efforts - as always. Anyway, here's a bit of info about the issue of Building Standards. Enjoy. David Eisenberg ----------------------- Hi all This may be something that has already been discussed here, but since I haven't had time to stay up to the minute with either the greenbuilding or straw bale listserves as I've been traveling all over the country the last few weeks, I thought I'd take the liberty of posting it, before I head off for three weeks of rafting the Colorado River in the Grand Canyon. Please forgive the cross-posting on multiple listserves, for those of you who subscribe to both. The September/October issue of Building Standards, the magazine of the International Conference of Building Officials (ICBO), is out and it has a major feature on alternative materials and methods of construction. It includes articles about adobe, rammed earth, straw bale, earthbag construction, and pozzolanic cements, with the main articles being written by a proponent and a sidebar article by a building official who is familiar with the method and supportive of it. There is a letter about sustainable design by Dennis Weaver and an overview article, creating the context for the entire feature, which I wrote. It is possible to get a copy of the magazine from ICBO by calling ICBO at (562) 699-0541 (Whittier, California - LA area). They have also put the articles up on the ICBO website and you can view (and download them) there. Go to the ICBO web site and look for Building Standards Online or go to and then select features and articles and then look for the articles in the Sept./Oct. 98 issue on alternative materials. This is a great step in the right direction and those of you seeking to gain acceptance for these alternatives with your local building departments should point your local officials to this site. It was wonderful to have the opportunity to help pull this together and thanks are due to all those folks who wrote and worked on making this happen. Dennis Weaver, who was the keynote speaker at last year's ICBO annual business meeting in Phoenix has a letter about sustainable design to start off the feature articles. Bruce King wrote the straw bale article and a little article about Pozzolanic (non-portland) cements, and Leroy Sayre, retired Pima County, Arizona building official wrote the sidebar article. Paul McHenry wrote the adobe article with Ray Quintana, Chief Building Official of Bernalillo County, New Mexico doing the sidebar; Joe Tibbets wrote the rammed earth one with Tommy Garcia, Building Official for Dona Ana County (Las Cruces), New Mexico; and Nader Khalili wrote the one on earthbag construction with Tom Harp, Hisperia, California Building Official writing about his experience with that method. Special thanks go to Rick Okawa, Vice President for Techical Services of ICBO for having the idea for this feature after we met and talked last April in Alexandria, Virginia at the First Draft Code Change Hearings for the International codes. It was his initiative and willingness to follow up and contact me to ask me to help make this happen that made it possible. Roy Fewell, Vice President for Conference Services of ICBO also deserves credit for his suggestions and support; and Jon Traw, President of ICBO gets thanks for approving the project; and Maria Alonzo and David Jamieson, editor and assistant editor of Building Standards get kudos for their excellent editing work and support from concept to completion and helping get it put up on their website. I hope you all get a chance to have a look at these articles and that they prove to be useful to you in your local endeavors. Whoopee! I'm almost ready to disconnect from e-mail, phone calls, letters and all the rest for three whole weeks...I may think of you from down there in the bottom of the Grand Canyon...but no promises. David Eisenberg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 5 04:49:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA11902 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 04:49:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA00290; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 04:36:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Nov 1998 04:32:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA29999 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 04:31:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from bmcthnt.bm.chalmers.se (bmpc21.bm.chalmers.se [129.16.172.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA29995 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 04:31:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from bmpc12.bm.chalmers.se by bmcthnt.bm.chalmers.se with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id 45RBB9LD; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:36:42 +0100 Received: by bmpc12.bm.chalmers.se with Microsoft Mail id <01BE08A9.4200DA80@bmpc12.bm.chalmers.se>; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:44:26 +0100 Message-ID: <01BE08A9.4200DA80@bmpc12.bm.chalmers.se> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C5se_Andersson?= To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: RE: linoleum on slabs Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:44:24 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id EAA29996 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4802 Hi, John Straube wrote: "Placing the slab on rigid glass or rock wool and ignoring the poly is one almost sure fire way to dry the slab in climates with cool winters. This is one solution the Swedes have used to avoid flooring problems in their sometimes difficult conditions." --- This is very true. This solution is the most commonly used here in Sweden, because it makes it possible for the slab to dry out more quickly. The insulation will act as a kind of vapour barrier as it makes the vapour pressure in the concrete higher than in the fill underneath. I am not completely aware of the construction solutions used in America, but believe that this is a question of high interest. If anyone wants more information on the "Swedish way" please write to me, and I will direct you to an "expert in the field", professor Lars-Olof Nilsson, at my department, who has been involved in this research and in making recommendations. He is in the States for the moment, but will be back next week. Åse Andersson ---------------------------------------------------- Department of Building Materials Chalmers University of Technology 412 96 Göteborg Sweden Phone: +46-31-772 2333 Fax: +46-31-772 2296 -----Original Message----- From: David M. Foley [SMTP:dmfoley@acadia.net] Sent: Thursday, November 05, 1998 3:09 AM To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: RE: linoleum on slabs John, Thanks for all of your comments and insights. I have immense respect for your work and knowledge, and I admire that you back your observations with good science and reasoning. In this particular building, we're virtually certain that no flood water has infiltrated the under-slab fill, i.e., the seasonal water table has never reached the level of the compacted fill beneath the slab. We now believe that at least two things are occuring: first, moisture trapped in the underslab fill during construction is migrating as vapor through the slab and being trapped by the linoleum. We believe that the amount is not great, but is enough to cause the water-based adhesive beneath the linoleum to fail. Second, we think that the vapor retarder is not capable of stopping as much vapor diffusion from the soil below as we'd like. We will never again allow a client to talk us into saving $700 or $800 (American) by substituting 6-mil polyethylene for a more substantial vapor retarder, such as Sisalkraft, Plybar and other "heavy-duty" products. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 5 09:52:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15628 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:52:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10446; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:37:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:33:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10103 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:33:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10099 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:33:36 -0500 (EST) From: Schawe@aol.com Received: from Schawe@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1FYYa04134 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:44:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:44:31 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Vapor barriers Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4803 David Foley wrote: > We >will not place a vapor retarder directly beneath the concrete, because >although it theoretically could slow vapor transmission, it affects the >quality of the concrete, and there's too much risk for significant tearing >and puncturing in the field. Here in South Texas, the vapor barrier is most often place directly beneath the concrete and on top of the sand/fill. Never seen these kinds of problems, and our soil is water saturated quite often. The vapor barrier is wrapped around the bottom of the perimeter grade beam, and the thinking is that this isolates the structural fill from the adjacent subsoil conditions. Your comments about rips and punctures are definitely valid. Most contractors are not too careful and the seams are a real problem, too. Having said this, I think your way of doing things makes more sense! not much help, Phil Schawe ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 5 10:21:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16126 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:21:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12081; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:06:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:03:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11762 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:02:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11758 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:02:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DTA4NFCG; Thu, 05 Nov 1998 10:14:47 EST To: kec@icanect.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:17:46 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: green building Palm Beach Message-ID: <19981105.101747.9326.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <36357241.BF38C922@icanect.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-6,15-16,27-28,31-36 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4804 Kelly, I e-mailed you right after your posting but have not yet heard from you. One thing I neglected to mention is that in this office we maintain an extensive data base of environmental products and sources - including construction materials. You mentioned you don't want to spend a lot - this means you had probably better be prepared to invest a lot of "sweat equity" as $100,000 will not buy you much in a regular house, much less one which is environmental. One of the first rules in environmental building is you can either build cheap and spend a lot in continual maintenance or you can spend a little more for durable and efficient building and save in long-term maintenance. Most people, an developers opt for the former, which is why S. Florida homes look good to begin with but seldon last and cost a lot to keep up. Your choice. The other thing you will probably discover is that "green" building in general is still quite foreign in concept to the majority of architects and contractors here, with only a few notable exceptions. While awareness is slowly growing, much of this area's awareness is limited to caring for the natural environment ,or in recycling. Some awareness extends beyond that to energy conservation, usually during the summer when cooling bills rival northern heating bills and water conservation, usually only during our periodic droughts. More sophisticated concepts like low toxic or sustainable resourcing are virtually limited to a small minority - usually those. like the chemically sensitive, who have some connection to that concept. P.S. You might want to look for copies of "New Directions for Better Living", a small monthly free environmental newpaper I contribute to. You can find it at area bookstores and health food stores. Best wishes. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL www.environsinteriors.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 5 10:24:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16194 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:24:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12538; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:11:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:07:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12162 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:07:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12156 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:07:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.145]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3377700 ; Thu, 05 Nov 1998 07:37:38 -0800 Message-ID: <3641C182.EB9E80C0@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 07:17:22 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: linoleum on slabs References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4805 I think one of the most important points that John Straube made was on the fill material used (regardless of placement of barrier). Fill material needs to be a large clean aggregate material to form a capillary break. Most pit run or road fill type materials used contain a high percentage of clay and are not suitable. The vb below a 2" sand layer is in my mind the best placement allowing protection for the barrier and enough material to sponge water and allow it to diffuse back through the concrete. The continuous 6ml poly and the continuous 2" poly insul you provided are about as much vb you could possibly provide short of a membrane. Another option for flooring for the type of slab you use could be a floating floor (cork, bamboo, etc.) but slab details would still have to deal with moisture, another option would be an insulation below the concrete that allows for some drainage and provides a break such as a rockwool board. John David M. Foley wrote: ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 5 11:50:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18262 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:50:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17598; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:34:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:28:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16793 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:27:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16786; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:27:47 -0500 (EST) From: Strawnet@aol.com Received: from Strawnet@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 9VBGa29185; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:32:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <56376b4e.3641d32e@aol.com> Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:32:46 EST To: chansey@earthlink.net Cc: strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, coblist@deatech.com, essa@csf.colorado.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Re: ICBO's Building Standards Magazine Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Claris Emailer v1.0 sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4806 Just a very quick reply... Paul Salas wrote: >I agree with MJ and others in congratulating those who authored or >participated in publishing the work. It's a step in the right direction >for planting seeds in the minds of the BO's of the world and exposing >alternative construction methods for those who are "unaware" that they >even exist. >If you are well read and have some indept knowledge of the various >subjects, you will not find much in the way of "new stuff" as most of >the articles were written with the purpose of giving an overview to a >realitive novice audience. Much is a repeat of already published work. As I've been involved over the past several years with the building codes community, it has become painfully evident that the building officials who are aware of these alternatives in anything but the most superficial way are few and very far between. In many cases, they've not even heard of some of these things nor been exposed to the issues that I raise in my overview article about the unintended consequences of what we are doing. So this is in a very real sense a first step toward creating a basic level of awareness of these alternatives and the reason they are important. Certainly I would not expect most of the readers of these listserves to learn a great deal, technically, from reading these articles. Just getting this in front of building officials in this forum is a big step. And having these articles published by ICBO lends credibility to them all. >I found Joe Tibbet's "Rammed Earth: Developing New Guidelines for an Old >Material" interesting for bringing forth that the application of >construction methods in one area (adobe) can not be transferred and >applied directly in another (rammed earth) without training, education >and altering trade practices. This is always an important consideration in everything we do - at least the consideration of those things we think are transferrable which usually need careful scrutiny. Assumptions are dangerous things... >It would be great if a follow-up in a year or so was conducted to see >how many jurisdictions have modified their local codes to permit >alternative materials and methods as a result of this enlightenment. Indeed it would be nice to try to follow up in some way, but what I would like to suggest is that if anyone finds that these articles made a difference in your dealing with specific projects in any jurisdiction, that you let DCAT know with just a brief note about it. I'm not sure what is going on but I've still not seen either of my messages in my listserve digests or any of the other discussions that may have taken place. But it is for another time, because I'm out of here for three weeks. David Eisenberg Co-Director Development Center for Appropriate Technology P.O. Box 27513 Tucson, AZ 85726-7513 (520) 624-6628 (520) 798-3701 fax dcat@azstarnet.com strawnet@aol.com (direct personal e-mail) http://www.azstarnet.com/~dcat/ http://www.azstarnet.com/~dcat/barriers.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 5 13:29:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA20531 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:29:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23990; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:16:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:12:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23593 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:11:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23588 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 13:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from [153.37.202.251] (1Cust251.tnt4.redmond.wa.da.uu.net [153.37.202.251]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA26563 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:23:59 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: wrg7@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:37:56 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Mary Colette Wallace Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4807 David Foley wrote >Based on the experience, until convinced otherwise, we will not put >anything directly on a concrete slab in contact with the ground except >ceramic tiles on a latex-modified thinset mortar (no mastic). Any other >flooring will either be on a product like Seal-Flex or Floor Seal, or will >be on plywood on top of a vapor retarder placed on top of the slab. We >will not place a vapor retarder directly beneath the concrete, because >although it theoretically could slow vapor transmission, it affects the >quality of the concrete, and there's too much risk for significant tearing >and puncturing in the field. Just got something in the mail that may help. There's an interesting product out from Cosella Dorken: Delta-FL Basement Floor alternative http://www.DeltaMS.com It's a HDPE sheet with dimples to provide an 'insulating thermal air-gap' with a compressive strength of 6000 psf and no toxicity. Looks interesting - and they also make a version to act as a drainage membrane on exterior basement concrete walls and a version that acts to re-direct ground water away from foundation walls. Their phone number:1-888-433-5824. I have no connection with them or experience with their product - but it sure looks interesting. (Maybe someone on this list has some wisdom about it and will share with all of us.) Mary Colette Wallace, Assoc. AIA. The Wallace Research Group 11330 NE 36th Place G117 Bellevue, WA 98004 425.822.1249 Mailto:wrg7@earthlink.net building the future through objective materials information ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 5 20:32:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA29317 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:32:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA21584; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:18:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:14:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA20851 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:14:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA20847 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:14:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from uymfdlvk (dial-3-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.3]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA01607 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:29:13 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981105202819.007ddd80@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 20:28:19 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re: slabs with moisture problems and gas fireplaces In-Reply-To: <199811030700.CAA07303@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4808 Sarah H and David F.: With regard to moisture and slabs, it seems best to put the vapor barrier directly under the concrete, to elminate the moisture reservoir created by a sand or sand/gravel bed directly in contact with the slab. I spoke with a local contractor who thought he had anecdotal evidence that the sand bed above the VB gave problems with lifting linoleum -- he was relying on memory of many slab jobs. this contractor also said that placing the slab on the VB on the rigid insulation made it easier to walk on during the pour, as you don't sink into the sand. Re gas fireplaces: On fireplaces, Sklip Hayden and company at CMHC are doing great work on sorting out fireplace efficiency and safety issues. Canada doesn't allow unvented gas fireplaces. You can get a copy of their publications form 800-387-2000 and they have a webstie at oee.nrcan.gc.ca. I have a brochure-type publication "all abuot gas fireplaces" that has good info on selection criteria -- Canada also has efficiency ratings for gas fireplaces, which you should be able to get from them also. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT, USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 5 20:33:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA29356 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:33:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA21714; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:15:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA21039 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:15:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA21035 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-40-240.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.135.240]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA13728; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:26:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:30:38 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE08FB.267703A0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Rogers, Mike'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: "low-e" paint Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:43:09 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4809 Low-e coatings and paints work by reducing radiative heat transfer, usually they reduce heat flow by this mode by from 70 to 90%. They do not affect the other modes of heat transfer (conduction and convection) at all. They are not very useful in modern building envelopes because they work by reducing the heat transfer from interior air to the wall, not the flow of heat through the wall. A normal wall has a R-value of 12 to 20 and thus the surface temp should be warm. Radiative heat transfer varies as the temperatre difference to the 4th power (double the delta T and rdiation increases by 16 times). The delta T driving radiaiton in the first place is small, so low-E coats wont help much unless the surface is quite abit hotter or colder than interior, e.g. in roof and windows. The normal interior "surface film" that resists heat flow has a resistance of about R0.7. Of this, about half is convective/conductve, and half radiation. Even if the low-E coat reduced radiative heat flow to zero, it would only double the R-value of the film -- to R1.4. A R0.7 gain over a R12 or R20 wall is not that significant. Note also that the surface temp of the wall will drop slightly, and condensation will be come slightly more possible. BTW- windows are quite different. On Wednesday, November 04, 1998 11:10 AM, Rogers, Mike [SMTP:MRogers@vdh.state.vt.us] wrote: > could anyone direct me to the previous posts OR chime in with thoughts on > these "low-e" paints? (Radiance is one brand.) ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 5 21:01:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29824 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:01:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23562; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:44:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA23222 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:44:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA23216 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:43:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from uymfdlvk (dial-75-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.75]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA03197 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:55:54 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981105205749.00795580@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 20:57:49 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re: slab moisture and envelope houses In-Reply-To: <199811040700.CAA18808@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4810 On slab moisture: >My understanding is that this reccomendation is to ensure even curing of >the concrete slab. The sand below the concrete helps to absorb some of >the water from the bottom of slab; this balances water lost on the top >of the slab by evaporation. This promotes even shrinkage, so fewer and >smaller cracks. >Bruce Donelson My understanding is that water should hydrate and become part of the concrete, NOT evaporate or be absorbed, as these processes weaken the concrete. (I left both sides of my own house foundation walls under polyethylene for a month before uncovering.) Is the concrete for slabs being delivered too wet for proper hydration in order to facilitate handling? John Straube and others: please comment and correct me if I'm wrong. On envelope houses: There was some monitoroing done in the 70's that came to the conclusion that envelope houses performed as well as they did energy-wise becasue of the total amount of insulation -- that they would do just as well if the two layers of insulation and two layers of windows had the space removed between them. The thermal connection to the earth was ineffective at storing or retrieving heat. Go passive solar, super-insulated, pay attention to minimizing cooling loads, build tight, install a good HRV or ERV ventilation system, keep it clean inside for good IAQ and enjoy! Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 5 21:03:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29844 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:03:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23788; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:50:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:46:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA23381 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:46:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA23373 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:46:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.103] (rkd079.acadia.net [208.244.128.103]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA18649 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:59:27 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:57:29 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: linoleum on slabs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4811 John Salmen wrote: >I think one of the most important points that John Straube made was on the fill >material used (regardless of placement of barrier). Fill material needs to be a >large clean aggregate material to form a capillary break. Most pit run or road >fill type materials used contain a high percentage of clay and are not >suitable. end of quote Good point John. On this particular job, the underslab fill was "crusher dust", a fairly coarse aggregate left over from stone-crushing operations, and it was virtually free of "fines", or organic materials, clay, silt etc. We like the idea of the vapor retarder below a sand layer, on top of coarser fill, but wouldn't the concrete bleed water, and rain that percolates through the slab during construction, just be trapped in a smaller reservoir? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 5 21:16:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA00073 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:16:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA24327; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:02:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:59:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA24018 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:59:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA24014 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 20:59:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from uymfdlvk (dial-75-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.75]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA04158 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:13:59 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981105211309.007e2660@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 21:13:09 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #358 In-Reply-To: <199811050700.CAA25554@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4812 >Subject: GBlist: "low-e" paint > CREST maintains a searchable archive of this list >could anyone direct me to the previous posts OR chime in with thoughts on >these "low-e" paints? (Radiance is one brand.) > We >will not place a vapor retarder directly beneath the concrete, because >although it theoretically could slow vapor transmission, it affects the >quality of the concrete, and there's too much risk for significant tearing >and puncturing in the field. Shouldn't all the water chemically hydrate in the concrete? See my previous post on this. Is some of the $2 billion in slab remediation caused by expedient rather than structurally (stochiometrically?) correct concrete mixes? It is my understanding that a few holes are OK in a sub-slab vapor retarder since the slab acts as the air barrier, and since vapor pressure is evenly distributed across the VB. This is not like a hole in the bottom of a bucket full of water. David, Sarah, John Straube or others: Comments? Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 5 21:56:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA00459 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:56:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26621; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:42:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:38:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA26129 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:38:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA26118 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:38:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-19-174.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.131.174]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA22662; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:49:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:54:13 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0906.D3A65660.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Mary Colette Wallace'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: RE: Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:05:48 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4813 This product has been sold for almost as long as I have been alive in Germany and for at least ten years in Canada (where it is one of the most common products used for foundation drainage). It is a good product, BUT, I would not use it as an underfloor application to solve vapour problems. IT is intended and good for draining water away before a hydrostatic pressure can build. For the same cost one can source a 3 pcf fibreglass insulation draining and insulating board and really solve the floor problem. On Thursday, November 05, 1998 1:38 PM, Mary Colette Wallace [SMTP:wrg7@earthlink.net] wrote: > product out from Cosella Dorken: Delta-FL Basement Floor alternative > > http://www.DeltaMS.com > > It's a HDPE sheet with dimples to provide an 'insulating thermal air-gap' > with a compressive strength of 6000 psf and no toxicity. The insulating gap is of marginal value. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 5 22:09:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA00646 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:09:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA27808; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:56:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:52:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA27190 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:51:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA27181 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:51:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-19-174.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.131.174]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA29402; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:03:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:07:57 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0908.BEB0D1C0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Andy Shapiro'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: slab moisture and envelope houses Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:03:14 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4814 On Thursday, November 05, 1998 8:58 PM, Andy Shapiro [SMTP:ashapiro@together.net] wrote: > On slab moisture: > >My understanding is that this reccomendation is to ensure even curing of > >the concrete slab. The sand below the concrete helps to absorb some of > >the water from the bottom of slab; this balances water lost on the top > >of the slab by evaporation. This promotes even shrinkage, so fewer and > >smaller cracks. > >Bruce Donelson > > My understanding is that water should hydrate and become part of the > concrete, NOT evaporate or be absorbed, as these processes weaken the > concrete. (I left both sides of my own house foundation walls under > polyethylene for a month before uncovering.) Is the concrete for slabs > being delivered too wet for proper hydration in order to facilitate handling? You are both right. Poly will result in uneven drying of the concrete if: 1) the concrete is delvired with an excess of water, say more than w/c of 04 and 2) the top of the concrete slab is not protected by poly or wet burlap or straw (as good practise says it should). The ACI recommendations are, I think, based on tests of exposed slabs in California delivered in the way that is typical: way too wet. Almost all slabs in this area are poured directly on poly in the basements of houses with the framed roof already in place. There are no problems with curlingor undue cracking. I would not use poly unless the floor were sensitive to vapour flow, like linoleum is. BUT you do need a capilary break and I recommend and most builders here use crushed stone to do this. Poly is not needed. BTW, rips and tears in the poly is not a big issue since the vapour resistance of the poly is still pretty good, even when perforated all over. As a capillary break it also still works pretty well. > On envelope houses: > There was some monitoroing done in the 70's that came to the conclusion > that envelope houses performed as well as they did energy-wise becasue of > the total amount of insulation -- that they would do just as well if the > two layers of insulation and two layers of windows had the space removed > between them. The thermal connection to the earth was ineffective at > storing or retrieving heat. This is both my recollection and what calculations will show >Go passive solar, super-insulated, pay > attention to minimizing cooling loads, build tight, install a good HRV or > ERV ventilation system, keep it clean inside for good IAQ and enjoy! Absolutely. I think this is the way to go too! ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 5 22:09:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA00659 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:09:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA27813; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:56:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:52:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA27206 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:51:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA27186 for ; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 21:51:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-19-174.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.131.174]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA29422; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:03:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:08:01 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0908.C0DAB6A0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'David M. Foley'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: RE: linoleum on slabs Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 22:07:15 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4815 On Thursday, November 05, 1998 7:57 PM, David M. Foley [SMTP:dmfoley@acadia.net] wrote: > John Salmen wrote: > >material used (regardless of placement of barrier). Fill material needs to be a > >large clean aggregate material to form a capillary break. Most pit run or road > >fill type materials used contain a high percentage of clay and are not > >suitable. > end of quote > > Good point John. On this particular job, the underslab fill was "crusher > dust", a fairly coarse aggregate left over from stone-crushing operations, > and it was virtually free of "fines", or organic materials, clay, silt etc. I have used crusher dust widely for a base for interlocking stones. It does not have clay sized fines, but the compacted mass is not close to a draining layer. Unless you are use substabtially different material, it is able to store a huge amount of liquid water. Try it -- pack some crsuher dust into a can, punch a hole in the bottom, add a weighed amount of water to the top and measure the weight of water that stays behind and report as a voulmetric percentage - you will be amazed. > We like the idea of the vapor retarder below a sand layer, on top of > coarser fill, but wouldn't the concrete bleed water, and rain that > percolates through the slab during construction, just be trapped in a > smaller reservoir? Yes, butif the reservoir is small enough, it can dry out. For your application it would probably still be a problem. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 00:27:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA02422 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:27:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA02622; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:13:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:09:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA02305 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:09:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from rockmail.sru.edu (phoenix.sru.edu [205.149.64.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA02301 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:09:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from JACKRUBY ([208.231.49.228]) by rockmail.sru.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with SMTP id AAA26DC for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:21:21 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981106051723.0067542c@rockmail.sru.edu> X-Sender: jdt4006@rockmail.sru.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 00:17:23 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Jeremy Truog Subject: GBlist: lumber information Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4816 I am looking at issues regarding dimensional lumber in building as opposed to SIPs. Particularly I need information about lumber prices, availability, labor costs of a stick frame home, and energy efficiency. Any leads? Thanks, Jeremy Truog ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 05:43:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA04869 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:43:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA10281; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:29:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:25:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA10014 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:25:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA10010 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:25:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-33.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.33]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 05:20:23 -0500 Message-ID: <3642FC3D.1EAC@cyberzone.net> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 05:40:13 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Wintertime IAQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4817 Greetings. I signed up for the Onelist IAQ mail list but have no idea if I am in fact on it. In the meantime, I have a general question about wintertime indoor air quality. Someone I know had mentioned that she hated her warm air heat because it was always dry and dusty. I gave a couple of recommendations, based on past Energy Crafted Home workshops here in Connecticut, but really need to expand on it and would appreciate comments. 1. Maintain relative humidity at 30-40% (monitored by a decent humidity gauge) by using a stand-alone humidifier. My experience with units built into the ductwork is that they become a biological nightmare since no one ever cleans them as often as they should. Can anyone recommend a stand-alone model that isn't full of sharp corners and other nooks and crannies that are equally difficult to clean? 2. Install better filtration. What kind and how much is the question. Or are there free-standing alternatives that will do as well? Thanks. Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 06:51:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA05268 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:51:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA11784; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:38:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:34:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA11546 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:34:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA11539 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:34:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA10001 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:46:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 06:46:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from esy15.vineyard.net(206.166.158.145) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id smab09980; Fri Nov 6 06:46:31 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: Floor Covering. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4818 Danny - You asked: >I am looking for rubber floor mats or floor covering for the interior of a >house.The goal is to cover a concrete floor to provide cushioning for >walking and children playing and falling. We don't want to use carpet >because it gets too dirty and we don't want to attach the floor covering >down. I am finding various sources of rubber mats but I am unfamiliar with >the potential outgasing of any toxins from these products. Anybody have any >experience or opinions about the IAQ issues related to this sort of thing?- Try Eco-Tile: colorful 100% recycled PVC. Ingenious interlocking tiles, just pound 'em together with a mallet. 6 colors - they'll do a custom color if you need 50,000 SF for your next shopping mall project. Available from MATS Inc., Braintree MA 781-848-6313. Don't know about outgassing. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 10:53:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08952 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:53:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21995; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:40:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:36:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21540 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:36:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from labs.tamu.edu (labs.tamu.edu [128.194.103.89]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21536 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:36:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (modem-1402.rns.tamu.edu) by labs.tamu.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0003C33F@labs.tamu.edu>; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 9:48:46 -0600 Message-ID: <36431A73.7A5E@labs.tamu.edu> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 09:49:07 -0600 From: marvit Reply-To: rsm444d@labs.tamu.edu Organization: Texas A&M University X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: castle Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4819 Years ago I saw on a tv program, a man who had worked for 25yrs(?) building a castle all by himself. I think he was using finds from scavenging, and the rest was a lot of cement and stone? I believe he allowed self tours with the option of giving donations. does this sound familiar to anyone? was trying to locate the castle. Thanks! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 11:46:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10134 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:46:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25728; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:33:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:29:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25230 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:28:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25217 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (1Cust165.tnt24.nyc3.da.uu.net [208.255.58.165]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26235 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:40:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <364326CC.36E1030E@swinter.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 11:41:48 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: lumber vs. SIPs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4820 For Jerry Truog: Please get in touch with the Structural insulated Panel Association at: www.sips.org debra lombard steven winter associates www.swinter.com also visit green-haus at http://home.earthlink.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 11:52:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10238 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:52:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26436; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:38:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:35:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25870 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:34:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25856 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:34:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (1Cust165.tnt24.nyc3.da.uu.net [208.255.58.165]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA02649 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 08:46:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36432847.F4793F0A@swinter.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 11:48:07 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Rubber Flooring Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4821 For Danny: I would not reccommend PVC it does offgas, see Greenpeace's web site about that www.greenpeace.org. I would recommend using Forbo's Marmoleum rubber mats / recycled content. Forbo web site is www.forbo-industries.com or use finished cork flooring ie: Wicander Enterprises at http://www.wecork.com/ Sincerely, debra lombard steven winter associates www.swinter.com also visit green-haus at http://home.earthlink.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 11:55:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10400 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:55:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26796; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:41:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:38:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA26297 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:37:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26287 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:37:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from WALNUT by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id 4Q5ZT08T; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:59:43 -0500 Received: by Walnut.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BE097A.CC35F1A0@Walnut.babb.com>; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:44:22 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE097A.CC35F1A0@Walnut.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'GBLIST'" Subject: GBlist: Lumber information Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 11:44:21 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id LAA26289 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4822 Hello! My family owns and operates a 50 year old lumber yard, so I asked my father if he could answer Jeremy Truog's question. Here's what he e-mailed to me: <> Hope it helps! Jillanna Babb-Cheshul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 12:51:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA11901 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:51:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA00995; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:38:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:34:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00110 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:34:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00104 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:34:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-24-196.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.196]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA22854; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:46:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 12:50:44 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0984.1119F740.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'dpharazim@cyberzone.net'" , greenbuilding Subject: RE: GBlist: Wintertime IAQ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:07:16 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4823 Her house is dry because it is not airtight enough. First weather seal all potential leaks, and the inteior RH will lilely rise. The present problme in good houses in Canada is that the houses get too humid because they are tight and/or underventilated. The dry air allows dust to spread around. Filtration is useful, but youneed to get good ones. Electrostatic filters work well, but do not know if they have drawbacks. HEPA filters are great but may be too expensive or get clogged too often. On Friday, November 06, 1998 8:40 AM, Dan and Pam [SMTP:dpharazim@cyberzone.net] wrote: > Someone I know had mentioned that she hated her warm air heat because it > was always dry and dusty. I gave a couple of recommendations, based on > past Energy Crafted Home workshops here in Connecticut, but really need > to expand on it and would appreciate comments. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 13:40:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12924 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:40:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04713; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:27:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:23:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA04239 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:23:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04233 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:23:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (1Cust87.tnt2.poughkeepsie.ny.da.uu.net [208.250.108.87]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA09791; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 10:35:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36433F8B.95461C69@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 13:27:24 -0500 From: Jonathan Harkness X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsm444d@labs.tamu.edu CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: castle References: <36431A73.7A5E@labs.tamu.edu> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C75636ED465F62A8163071D6" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4824 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C75636ED465F62A8163071D6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I do not know whether this local castle is what you saw, but it sure sounds familiar. Wing's Castle is well known locally. Peter is reputed to be quite a character and the castle is worth the visit. Hope this helps! http://ddi.digital.net/~gunnery/wings/wings.htm marvit wrote: > Years ago I saw on a tv program, a man who had worked for 25yrs(?) > building a castle all by himself. I think he was using finds > from scavenging, and the rest was a lot of cement and stone? > > I believe he allowed self tours with the option of giving donations. > does this sound familiar to anyone? > was trying to locate the castle. > Thanks! > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ --------------C75636ED465F62A8163071D6 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="jonharkness.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Jonathan Harkness Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="jonharkness.vcf" begin:vcard n:Harkness;Jonathan x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;PO Box 911;Millbrook;NY;12545;USA version:2.1 email;internet:jonharkness@earthlink.net tel;fax:914.877.9875 tel;work:914.877.9153 x-mozilla-cpt:;0 fn:Jonathan Harkness end:vcard --------------C75636ED465F62A8163071D6-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 13:43:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12954 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:43:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04969; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:26:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA04499 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:26:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04495 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:26:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from JOSEPHCH (207-172-240-192.s1.as4.bsd.erols.com [207.172.240.192]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA16121 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:38:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:38:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811061838.NAA16121@smtp1.erols.com> X-Sender: usbt@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Joe Charlson Subject: GBlist: Lumber vs. SIPs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4825 Jilliana's father wrote >Lumber has the lowest labor cost for building but energy efficiency is >compromised by the thermal paths created by the studs and other wood >structural members between the insulation bats. Southern pine lumber is These thermal paths can be insulated by using framing insulation. This material is essentially a foam furring strip that is applied parallel (unlike typical furring) to the stud faces. My company makes a variety of such products called Snap-Cap Framing Insulation. You use orders or magnitude less foam than with SIPS. ****************************************** Joe Charlson United States Building Technology, Inc. http://www.erols.com/usbt 701-B Waverly Street,Framingham, MA, 01702 USA Tel: 508-424-0055, Fax: 508-424-0050 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 14:54:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA14206 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:54:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09520; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:41:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:37:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08797 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08792 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:36:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13252 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:48:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:48:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy14.vineyard.net(206.166.158.72) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma013228; Fri Nov 6 14:48:10 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: castle Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4826 Marvit said: >Years ago I saw on a tv program, a man who had worked for 25yrs(?) > building a castle all by himself. I think he was using finds >from scavenging, and the rest was a lot of cement and stone? > >I believe he allowed self tours with the option of giving donations. >does this sound familiar to anyone? >was trying to locate the castle. You're probably talking about Dr. Tinkerpaw's place south of Big Sur, California. I visited him once, many years ago, with my family on one of many "architectural oddities" tours (this one also included Watts Towers in LA, and a 3 story treehouse 60' up in the crotch of an immense redwood in the Santa Cruz mountains. Tinkerpaw's real name is Art Beal, and I don't know if he's still building away, or even if he's still living. He'd be well into his 80's now, or more. Quite a character. Part Indian and refers to himself as half American, half white. In an interview with Lloyd Kahn, Lloyd asked him if he built the place all by himself, and he replied, " I created and built this junk heap. Back through my trail of life I gathered all this shit. This was all open land. Just a wilderness. Now . . . they want to change this and that. And I don't like it. . . You got to get a license to fart these days." He goes on to talk about the "suicide avenue" (freeway) they put in near his hillside castle, and how he built the road to his place with "idiot sticks" (pick and shovel - only an idiot would use 'em). If you want to find the place, go into San Simeon (it's not the Hearst Castle! whole different animal) or Cambria and and ask around. It's an extraordinary place to see. Thank god for all the eccentric renegades. They're far more interesting than Republicans. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 14:54:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA14212 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:54:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09532; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:41:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:36:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08771 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:36:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08767 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:36:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA13262 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:48:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:48:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy14.vineyard.net(206.166.158.72) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id smaa13228; Fri Nov 6 14:48:12 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: floor covering Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4827 Suellen said: >John, thanks for the 'lead' on alternative flooring, but this phone number >is NOT a business. Sorry about the mis-information. MAPS,Inc. seems to be out of business. Anyone know where Eco-Tile can be found? John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 15:03:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14384 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:03:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10380; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:50:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:46:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09987 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:46:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from j51.com (root@j51.com [209.94.121.51]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09983 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:46:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (pma22.ucs.net [209.94.122.22]) by j51.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA13924; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:01:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811062001.PAA13924@j51.com> X-Sender: tritt@j51.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 15:02:20 -0500 To: Jonathan Harkness From: Tritt Subject: Re: GBlist: castle Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <36433F8B.95461C69@earthlink.net> References: <36431A73.7A5E@labs.tamu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4828 Thanks a bunch - it sure did help! Seems Wing's CASTLE is only a bit over an hour from my home! So I just called WING's Castle, and the owner was quite helpful. Seems the Casle that was asked about previously on list could have been Bishop's Castle in Colorado - Rosanne had interviewed the owner last month on TV. Anyway, I'm going to take my Fiancee & son [both are Castle Afficianados - my son is studying to be an Architect (Naval)]- to Wing's this weekend to tour it as a surprise, and I will let you know our impressions. There are also Militaria displayed, which my son is very into also. It will be a wonderful drive with all the fall folliage in season! This is certainly a treat, thanks sooooooo much for the info Jonathan! Regards, Suellen At 01:27 PM 11/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >I do not know whether this local castle is what you saw, but it sure >sounds familiar. Wing's Castle is well known locally. Peter is reputed >to be quite a character and the castle is worth the visit. Hope this >helps! > >http://ddi.digital.net/~gunnery/wings/wings.htm >marvit wrote: > >> Years ago I saw on a tv program, a man who had worked for 25yrs(?) >> building a castle all by himself. I think he was using finds >> from scavenging, and the rest was a lot of cement and stone? >> >> I believe he allowed self tours with the option of giving donations. >> does this sound familiar to anyone? >> was trying to locate the castle. >> Thanks! >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >> Environmental Building News and Oikos >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >> ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 15:14:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14720 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:14:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11473; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:01:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:57:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10982 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:57:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10978 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:57:29 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DTD7NUGR; Fri, 06 Nov 1998 15:05:09 EST To: cobcrew@sprynet.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, sustain-austin@mcfeeley.cc.utexas.edu Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 13:49:58 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Solar Homes Message-ID: <19981106.140508.-143569.1.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-6,8-35 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4829 Thank goodness, at last! People with sense! My congratulations and compliments. Why do you think they call it Global Warming? On Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:31:26 -0600 "Mike Carter and Carol Cannon" writes: >I agree with you about minimizing solar gain here in Texas (Central >and >South). > >To that effect, we tried to use only a few small windows on the South >and >West, and kept them up high where there would be some shade from the >eaves. >We plan a living wall in front of the South and West of the (round) >main >building. > >In reading the greenbuilding checklist, it seems they would think that >we >were doing it at least 1/2 wrong. But with 99 degree temps possible >in >February, I'm still much more interested in keeping heat out than in >worrying about the "Winter" here. We can always wear more clothes. > >Mass is great. We have about 130 tons of it. > >Mike Carter & Carol Cannon >cobcrew@sprynet.com >http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/cobcrew >Austin, TX USA > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 15:34:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA15125 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:34:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13024; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:20:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:17:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA12647 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:17:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.bna (mail.bna.bellsouth.net [205.152.80.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12642 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:17:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from spencers (host-209-214-115-56.bna.bellsouth.net [209.214.115.56]) by mail.bna (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA06686; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 15:29:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36435CB1.1BE5@bellsouth.net> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 14:31:45 -0600 From: spencers Reply-To: bardsong@bellsouth.net Organization: bardsong X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-BLS20 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsm444d@labs.tamu.edu CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: castle/Loveland References: <36431A73.7A5E@labs.tamu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4830 marvit wrote: You speak of Loveland Castle in Loveland Ohio. I've been there. Awesome. Built by one man over decades. He died then his son took up and is expanded it furthur. Shawn > Years ago I saw on a tv program, a man who had worked for 25yrs(?) > building a castle all by himself. I think he was using finds > from scavenging, and the rest was a lot of cement and stone? > > I believe he allowed self tours with the option of giving donations. > does this sound familiar to anyone? > was trying to locate the castle. > Thanks! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 17:48:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA18051 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:48:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19946; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:35:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:31:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA19559 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:31:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19548 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:31:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (1Cust107.tnt15.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.145.107]) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00723; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:43:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36437BC0.1B2A385E@swinter.com> Date: Fri, 06 Nov 1998 17:44:17 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , dlombard@earthlink.net, deblombard@swinter.com Subject: GBlist: Eco-tile Flooring Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4831 Hello again: Eco-tile can be found at: Carolyn Lee EcoTile (UK) Ltd, PO Box 111 Barnet Herts EN5 4GA Tel: 0181 449 1541 Fax: 0181 440 2616 Email: Ecotile@btintemet Debra Lombarrd Steven Winter Associates www.swinter.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 17:53:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA18130 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:53:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA20309; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:40:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:37:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA20005 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA20000 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:36:48 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 9GBSa10440; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:48:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5ae244b8.36437ca2@aol.com> Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 17:48:02 EST To: rsm444d@labs.tamu.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: castle Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4832 Sounds to me like you are talking about the Simon Rodia "Watts Towers" in the Watts district of South Central Los Angeles, on 107th Street between Wilmington and Willowbrook (East of the Harbor Freeway I-110 and West of the Long Beach Freeway CA Rte. 7). Last I knew, since the death of the builder, this site was open to the public as a park feature. Truly one of the wonders of the built environment! A recycler's dream come true. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone: 510-841-1039 fax: 510-841-1008 iaqkibbey@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- In a message dated 11/6/98 7:50:15 AM, rsm444d@labs.tamu.edu writes: >Years ago I saw on a tv program, a man who had worked for 25yrs(?) > building a castle all by himself. I think he was using finds >from scavenging, and the rest was a lot of cement and stone? > >I believe he allowed self tours with the option of giving donations. >does this sound familiar to anyone? >was trying to locate the castle. >Thanks! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 6 21:20:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA20802 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:20:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29290; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:02:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA28996 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28989 for ; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:02:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-21-11.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.11]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA12348; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:14:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 6 Nov 1998 21:18:27 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE09CA.FEDB9600.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Joe Charlson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Lumber vs. SIPs Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 20:01:09 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4833 On Friday, November 06, 1998 1:38 PM, Joe Charlson [SMTP:usbt@erols.com] wrote: > These thermal paths can be insulated by using framing insulation. This > material is essentially a foam furring strip that is applied parallel > (unlike typical furring) to the stud faces. My company makes a variety of > such products called Snap-Cap Framing Insulation. You use orders or > magnitude less foam than with SIPS. Snap-Caps are a very clever and functional solution to the problem of thermal bridging. They are VERY important to steel stud walls. But, they do not solve the moisture problem. Applying 1.5 to 2" of insulated sheathing over a 2x4 wall will maintain the temperature of all surfaces adjoining the studspace above the dewpoint temperature of indoor air. Even if air leakage does occur, condensation is exceptionally unlikley. By maintain higher temps in the studspace, drying of built-in moisture and of rain penetration can often proceed faster than when OSB and 2x6 are used. But, this requires more foam to be used than the Snap-Caps. Let the user/designer balance the costs and benefits. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 7 01:26:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA23020 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 01:26:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA05086; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 01:13:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Nov 1998 01:09:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA04813 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 01:09:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA04809 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 01:09:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 21650 invoked by alias); 7 Nov 1998 06:21:15 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 21620 invoked by uid 0); 7 Nov 1998 06:21:14 -0000 Received: from kdialup157.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.180.241.157) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 7 Nov 1998 06:21:14 -0000 Message-ID: <002d01be0a16$e8b84020$9df1b4d1@h5n5y7> From: "Peter F. Alspach" To: "Green building list" Subject: GBlist: Liefhebber House Info. Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 23:21:51 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4834 To all Canadians: Does anyone have more information on the Liefhebber house built with CMHC in Toronto? I have just a small article from an old newspaper. It was fully- self-sufficient and off-grid in Toronto. Bio-filters, solar panels, solar heat, the works. Would love to find out more details. Thanks, Peter Alspach jupiterpete@uswest.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 7 09:54:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA25749 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 09:54:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14721; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 09:41:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Nov 1998 09:37:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14468 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 09:37:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14463 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 09:37:22 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ924008; Sat, 7 Nov 98 07:48:11 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA15558; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 07:48:27 -0700 Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 07:48:27 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Debra Lombard Cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: flax not Rubber Flooring In-Reply-To: <36432847.F4793F0A@swinter.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4835 Debra: The Marmoleum that we have specified and used is made from flax NOT rubber! Is the product described below a new products from Forbo? Jorg Ostrowski ___________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Debra Lombard wrote: > > I would not reccommend PVC it does offgas, see Greenpeace's web site > about that www.greenpeace.org. I would recommend using Forbo's > Marmoleum rubber mats / recycled content. Forbo web site is > www.forbo-industries.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 7 10:01:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25835 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 10:01:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15057; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 09:48:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Nov 1998 09:44:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14823 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 09:44:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14816 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 09:44:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on3-06.netcom.ca [207.181.90.134]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA03654; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 09:56:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981107095301.00a2cc90@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 09:55:22 -0400 To: "Peter F. Alspach" From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Liefhebber House Info. Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <002d01be0a16$e8b84020$9df1b4d1@h5n5y7> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4836 They have a website for it at: http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/HealthyHousing/Toronto/index.html Best.....Norbert Senf At 11:21 PM 06/11/98 -0700, you wrote: >To all Canadians: > >Does anyone have more information on the Liefhebber house built with CMHC in >Toronto? ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 7 12:30:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26863 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:30:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19827; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:11:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19436 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:11:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19432 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:11:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from preinstalledcom (207-172-240-17.s17.as1.bsd.erols.com [207.172.240.17]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA20848; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 12:23:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981107122244.00702f18@pop.erols.com> X-Sender: usbt@pop.erols.com Disposition-Notification-To: X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 12:22:47 -0500 To: , From: Joseph Arons Charlson Subject: RE: GBlist: Lumber vs. SIPs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4837 John Straube wrote: >they (Snap-Caps) do not solve the moisture problem. Applying 1.5 to 2" >of insulated sheathing over a 2x4 wall will maintain the temperature of all >surfaces adjoining the studspace above the dewpoint temperature of indoor air. Thank you for the kind comments on Snap-Cap. I agree with your condensation potential argument if the Snap-Cap is applied to the interior surface of the perimeter walls and no insulation is applied to the exterior surfaces. However, I do believe that a wall assembly with insulation sheathing has less drying potential should moisture somehow accumulate in the cavity such as through un-taped seams. Furthermore, if the Snap-Cap is applied to the exterior frame surfaces of the perimeter walls, the condensation potential should be no different than with insulated sheathing. Assume the designer specifies, 2-inch of EPS foam furring strips along the entire exterior of a 2x4 frame. Then the stud cavities are filled with fiberglass batts (R-19 or R-21). So the frame has an R-8 insulation value to the exterior, and the outer 2-inches of the cavity spaces have R-6.5 to R-7.6 of fiberglass. There will be very little difference in condensation from the wall using insulated sheathing. Furthermore, since we are talking about moisture inside of walls in a cold climate, the insulated sheathing assembly has a lower drying potential than the assembly without the sheathing. Insulated sheathings are relatively impermeable membranes. Couple that with an interior side vapor retarder and you have an assembly that will dry less rapidly than one where fiberglass is used instead of sheathing. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 8 09:18:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06765 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 09:18:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25750; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 09:05:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Nov 1998 09:01:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25547 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 09:01:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25543 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 09:01:05 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ611067; Sun, 8 Nov 98 07:11:59 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA133092; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 07:12:20 -0700 Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 07:12:20 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Debra Lombard Cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , dlombard@earthlink.net Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco-tile Flooring In-Reply-To: <36437BC0.1B2A385E@swinter.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4838 Debra: What is the right e-mail for the contact below? Jorg Ostrowski ____________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Debra Lombard wrote: > Eco-tile can be found at: > Carolyn Lee > EcoTile (UK) Ltd, > PO Box 111 > Barnet > Herts EN5 4GA > Tel: 0181 449 1541 > Fax: 0181 440 2616 > Email: Ecotile@btintemet > > Debra Lombarrd > Steven Winter Associates > www.swinter.com > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 8 18:11:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11104 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 18:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13811; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:57:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:51:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13465 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:51:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13461 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 17:50:59 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1TRFa03786 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 18:02:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <90ed44f5.364622fb@aol.com> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 18:02:19 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: More on Foundation drainage Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4839 Friends, I've been practicing foundation drainage methods that my excavation sub, crew and competitors think is a foolish waste of money. Around here the common practice is to spray or brush on that black pretend damproofing and backfill with whatever came out of the hole. Even though much of the soil is clay or hardpan. My method is stone the hole to level, damproof on top of footings with thourouseal for a capillary break before pouring foundation walls. Place 3/4 stone on all sides of 4" perforated drain pipe around footing, filter fabric, Two coats Thorouseal on foundation wall, backfill close to foundation with sandy gravel, top layer with loam. It gets expensive. Any low cost drainboard out there that would replace the gravel for a drainage plain and allow me to backfill with the excavated material with confidence? Any better damproofing that is either less expensive or faster to apply? Any other thoughts about what types of soils we should have against foundations in southern New England? Trying to bring quality green construction to bear in a very cost competitive market, I once again thank you all for any advice and feedback you can offer. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 8 22:26:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA13189 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:26:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24189; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:13:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:09:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA23829 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:09:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA23825 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:09:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id VAA0000000583; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 21:21:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981109032415.0074583c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 21:24:15 -0600 To: Jeremy Truog , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: lumber information Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4840 >I am looking at issues regarding dimensional lumber in building as opposed >to SIPs. Particularly I need information about lumber prices, availability, >labor costs of a stick frame home, and energy efficiency. Any leads? >Thanks, > Jeremy Truog Jeremy, A quick answer from a layman. We've just built our second SIP building; the first was put together a dozen years ago. The issue is not the cost of whatever, but the quality of the construction. Someone on this list once said that the cost of the framing would be about 15% of the total cost of the building and that a SIP would fit this criteria. IF you have a really good, conscientious builder who will put together a tightly built, well insulated frame, then you could compare that type of construction to the potential of a SIP framed building. HOWEVER, the quality of the SIPs also vary in the way they are put together and the care with which this happens. Additionally, of considerable importance is the design of the building. I would not, for instance, use SIPs for a roof (as I did most recently) unless it were a timber frame type construction. I also would be most careful about the company supplying the SIPs----note: accuracy in replicating drawings, speed of production, method of calculating the cost of the package, help with problems in the field as well as follow-up support. All of the folks out there are not alike. Finally, I also question the accuracy of the advertised R value of the SIP when one must add in the holes for the wiring (admittedly relatively minor) and the thermal breaks of the connecting materials, which is of considerable importance. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 8 22:57:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA13387 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:57:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25472; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:44:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:40:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA25233 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:40:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25229 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:40:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip25.ivnet.net [206.101.73.185]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA23479; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 18:43:42 -0800 Message-ID: <36466612.36FF44AA@ivnet.net> Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 19:48:34 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Arons Charlson CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Lumber vs. SIPs References: <3.0.32.19981107122244.00702f18@pop.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4841 And none of this addresses shear sheathing. Putting shear sheathing outside of either the Snap-Caps or insulated sheathing would just let the fasteners bend. I suppose you could use ThermoPly on the inside of the wall. Do Easterners not worry at all about seismic or high winds? Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon Joseph Arons Charlson wrote: > > John Straube wrote: > >they (Snap-Caps) do not solve the moisture problem. Applying 1.5 to 2" > >of insulated sheathing over a 2x4 wall will maintain the temperature of all > >surfaces adjoining the studspace above the dewpoint temperature of indoor > air. > > Thank you for the kind comments on Snap-Cap. I agree with your > condensation potential argument if the Snap-Cap is applied to the interior > surface of the perimeter walls and no insulation is applied to the exterior > surfaces. > > However, I do believe that a wall assembly with insulation sheathing has > less drying potential should moisture somehow accumulate in the cavity such > as through un-taped seams. Furthermore, if the Snap-Cap is applied to the > exterior frame surfaces of the perimeter walls, the condensation potential > should be no different than with insulated sheathing. > > Assume the designer specifies, 2-inch of EPS foam furring strips along the > entire exterior of a 2x4 frame. Then the stud cavities are filled with > fiberglass batts (R-19 or R-21). So the frame has an R-8 insulation value > to the exterior, and the outer 2-inches of the cavity spaces have R-6.5 to > R-7.6 of fiberglass. There will be very little difference in condensation > from the wall using insulated sheathing. Furthermore, since we are talking > about moisture inside of walls in a cold climate, the insulated sheathing > assembly has a lower drying potential than the assembly without the > sheathing. Insulated sheathings are relatively impermeable membranes. > Couple that with an interior side vapor retarder and you have an assembly > that will dry less rapidly than one where fiberglass is used instead of > sheathing. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 8 23:12:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA13644 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 23:12:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA26099; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:58:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:55:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA25814 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:54:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA25810 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 22:54:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from preinstalledcom (207-172-216-253.s253.tnt1.sbo.erols.com [207.172.216.253]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA11040; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 23:06:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981108230600.00719078@pop.erols.com> X-Sender: usbt@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 1998 23:06:06 -0500 To: Bruce , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Joseph Arons Charlson Subject: Re: GBlist: Lumber vs. SIPs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4842 Bruce wrote: >And none of this addresses shear sheathing. Putting shear sheathing >outside of either the Snap-Caps or insulated sheathing would just let >the fasteners bend. I suppose you could use ThermoPly on the inside of We have tested shear values with steel studs, Snap-Cap, OSB, and screws. It turns out that if you increase the fastener diameter from a code minimum number 8 to a number 12, you can get comparable shear wall performance in high wind and seismic conditions. These test results were published in the Light Gauge Steel Engineers newsletter in June of 98 I believe. The full tests will be available on our web site in not too distant future. Joe ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 9 06:08:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA16126 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 06:08:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA08779; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:54:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:49:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA08519 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:49:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA08515 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:49:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-138.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.138]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 05:44:11 -0500 Message-ID: <3646F663.5A50@cyberzone.net> Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 06:04:19 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Vapor barriers in wood construction Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4843 On my projects, I prefer to specify unfaced batt insulation, with a 6-mil poly vapor barrier. However, I see more and more often that the preferred method of insulating is to use faced batts, with the edges stapled to the sides of the studs or rafters, leaving the wood exposed. This approach was also detailed in the last issue of Fine Homebuilding. It seems to me that this produces no vapor barrier at all, since it introduces a limitless number of gaps in the envelope. Comments? Dan Harazim ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 9 09:28:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA18505 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:28:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15655; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:14:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:10:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15302 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:10:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15298 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:10:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-16-39.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.131.39]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA00200; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:22:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:27:09 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0BC3.20319080.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Joseph Arons Charlson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Lumber vs. SIPs Date: Sun, 8 Nov 1998 14:40:35 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4844 On Saturday, November 07, 1998 12:23 PM, Joseph Arons Charlson [SMTP:usbt@erols.com] wrote: > Furthermore, if the Snap-Cap is applied to the > exterior frame surfaces of the perimeter walls, the condensation potential > should be no different than with insulated sheathing. I cannot agree. In the situtation you spell out, the temperature of the inside of the exterior sheathing is much colder in the winter than a the inside of the insulated sheathing. If moist air enters the studspace, it will condense on the coldest surface it "sees" becuase the vapour resistance of the batt is negligile. In the wall with the insulated sheathing, the temperature willbe much higher and even relatively moist (room temp air at 50%RH) will not condense. If the wall has regular OSB sheathing and Snap-Caps, the temperture on the far side of the batt will be much colder and condensation can/will occur with interior air of 25 to 30%RH, i.e. normal conditions. Condensation almost never occurs on wood studs or on steel studs because they are warmer than the center of the batt space, i.e, because they are thermal bridges. Adding snap-caps increases the temp of the studs even more and thus changes nothing -- reduces the probability of condensation on the studs from nearly zero to more nearly zero. It is the center of the batt space that is the best insultated, the coldest and hence the most likely to see condensation. > However, I do believe that a wall assembly with insulation sheathing has > less drying potential should moisture somehow accumulate in the cavity such > as through un-taped seams. Let me explain my cryptic and likely inflammatory words on this topic. Insulated sheathing like XPS, and to a lessor degree EPS do restrict diffusive drying somewhat because their perm ratings are abetwen about 0.5 and 1. However, walls often have some air flow through, albeit it very small, and this seems to aid the drying tremonedously. Foil faced isocyanurate has a perm rating of zero and should not work, but does. We conducted a series of natural exposure wall drying tests in the late 80's, which culiminated in the report "The Ontario WallDrying Study" (ask CMHC for a copy -- its 300+ pages). This burst a lot of preconceived notions (including our own) about the effect of sheathing on wall drying. Exterior grade plywood has a rather low permeability to vapour flow and does not necessarily allow much faster vapour flow. More importantly, the wood studs are warmer with insulated sheathing so the driving force for drying to both the exterior and interior is greater. A bit larger vapour resistance in the sheathing does not necessarily translate to slower drying IF THE SHEATHING IS INSULATING. I do not beleive we know which walls dry better - those with insulating XPS or those with OSB. We do have the research to show that walls with vapour permeable insulating sheathings like rigid rckwool and fibreglass dry faster. In fact, look for Tuomo Ojanen's work in this area at the upcoming ASHRAE thermal envelopes conference. We also know, from the Ontario Wall Drying Study and various others, that insulating sheathings do not slow drying as much as has been expected. We do know for certain that insulating sheathings, not insulated studs, greatly reduce the possibility of condensation wetting. In my experience of looking at buildings and research enclosures, the balance is very much in favour of full insulating sheathings of XPS and EPS, although this conclusion has its caveats and remaining questions. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 9 09:50:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA18866 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:50:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17126; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:37:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:33:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA16721 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:33:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA16716 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:33:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA04387 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:44:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md18-39.ix.netcom.com(205.184.107.39) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma004169; Mon Nov 9 08:41:59 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981109093956.007119ac@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 09:39:58 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Student information request Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4845 GB-list -- here is a person looking for advice on joining the field. Please help. Thanks, Bion Howard ---------- Respond to: Anja Kollmuss At 05:47 PM 11/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >Greetings! >I found your address on the Web. I am currently a graduate student in >environmental policy at Tufts University. But I have come to realize that I >am most interested in a profession that would link my artistic interests >with my environmental concerns. I am therefore very interested in the field >of ecological architecture and design. Since I am very new to this field, I >have several questions, that I thought you might be able to answer: >-What kind of degree do I need, in order to work in the field of ecological >architecture and design? >-Would a degree in policy be helpful at all? >-Which schools of architecture/ design (or engineering) would you >recommend? >-To get a more concrete sense of what an ecological architect/ designer/ >consultant does I would like to talk to one and, if possible, visit his or >her offices. Could you recommend someone? (I live in Boston, MA) > >I would appreciate your answers very much. >Sincerely, >Anja Kollmuss > | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 9 11:15:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20396 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:15:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23987; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:02:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:58:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23611 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:58:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23591 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:58:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA16174 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:09:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md18-05.ix.netcom.com(205.184.107.5) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma016141; Mon Nov 9 10:08:46 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981109110642.0071fc90@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 11:06:44 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Climate specific design <"passive solar"> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4846 Passive Solar / Climate Specific Design ------------------------------------------------- I have read (lurking) the comments and discussion on passive solar which took place the last week or so on the list. There are a few considerations I would like to share with the group, not to be the last word but sort of the "end of the beginning." I hope this is helpful. 1. Passive solar design is really about what many in the field call "climate responsive architecture and engineering" considerations. There are numerous examples of good performing climate responsive buildings throughout every climate in the world, and "passive solar" success is not limited to colder regions, nor should it be restricted from consideration in hot climates. 2. A climate specific design respects (among a wide array of considerations) the building site, regional climate, and local vernacular architecture -- and often may provide an incredibly adaptive canvas for the full array of environmental building considerations. 3. Step one in "passive solar" design is to provide appropriate thermal protection and design for energy efficiency, optimized for WHERE YOU ARE... 4. For an existing building, a complete study of the structure, its use and future potential use, surrounding vegetation and structures, and relationship to the site is undertaken prior to designing retro fits or additions. 5. Once a good level of life-cycle energy efficiency is estimated (we like to use computer energy analysis tools -- See Home Energy Magazine, Sept/Oct 1998) then further analysis of options for adding fenestration, ventilation, overhangs, shading features, "cool" landscaping, roof ponds, or other climate specific architectural features us undertaken. This stage of analysis frequently considers costs of competitive options. 6. Often we find this process is iterative with the thermal protection and occupant comfort scheme, and the final recommended package may differ from the initial proposed levels of insulation and air-tightness -- but this is natural! The design support professional's job is to be flexible and work with the architect and builder to converge on the most successful solutions. 7. Finally, quality control, assisting in developing sound & build-able specifications, field supervision, and building commissioning all assist in bringing the "whole building" up to its performance potential. We have found buildings are living systems (this phase is not new, having been coined in the early 1970's by solar pioneers in Davis, California) that -- when fine tuned by good engineering support -- the architect and builder will succeed in providing comfort, health, durability and value to the consumer. Remembering that our buildings are more than wood, concrete, brick, glass and plastic is very important. Remembering they should respond to their environment not isolate from the environment is also key. | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 9 12:08:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21283 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:08:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25105; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:13:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:09:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24396 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:09:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24385 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:09:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.162.253.93] (d73.best1.net [205.162.253.93]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA00894 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:21:19 -0800 X-Sender: smcgrath@mail.best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:21:50 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: GBlist: Austin, TX Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4847 Marc Richmond Powers, from the Austin 'Green Building' program is our guest on Build America today. We now broadcast live, and can take calls at 888 546-3588. Show starts at 4:05 (pacific), Marc starts at 4:17. Links for the broadcast are on our web site, inluding a link to the free download of the Real Audio player. The show is also available over the Cable Radio Network: check with your local cable company. ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine with live internet broadcast every Monday at 4:05pm PST http://www.buildamerica.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 9 12:08:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21285 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:08:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27631; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:33:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:30:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27223 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:30:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from halifax.chebucto.ns.ca (halifax.chebucto.ns.Ca [192.75.95.75]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27168 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:29:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from corson@localhost by halifax.chebucto.ns.ca id <33773-594>; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:42:03 -0400 Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:42:03 -0400 (AST) From: Jennifer Corson To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: info required Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4848 Greenbuilding Gang, Have been lurking and enjoying much of the conversation, though now I find myself needing some assistance. Has anyone seen/researched the energy requirements of manufacturing metals used in construction, eg. aluminum, copper, steel, brass..? I would like to present a comparison of the energy required (total embodied energy, if available) when manufacturing with virgin material versus recycled metal. Request #2 is anyone who has been involved with the re-erection of a steel-frame building and might have some documentation and photos of such. Any help would be appreciated. You can email me directly or to the list. Thanks in advance. Jennifer Corson *************************** at Solterre Design, PO Box 36032, Halifax, Nova Scotia B3J 3S9 at The Renovator's ReSource Inc., 5249 Smith Street, Halifax, NS, B3H 1M3 at Pick and Shovel Productions, Ste. 404, 1657 Barrington St, Halifax Phone (902) 492-1215, Fax (902) 425-6795 E-Mail: corson@chebucto.ns.ca *************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 9 12:08:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21320 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:08:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26691; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:24:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:21:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA26114 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:20:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26094 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA19297 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:31:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md18-05.ix.netcom.com(205.184.107.5) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma019249; Mon Nov 9 10:31:15 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981109112911.00723afc@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 11:29:13 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: US Greenhouse Gas Emissions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4849 Rate of Greenhouse Gas Emissions Slows in U-S U-S emissions of greenhouse gases rose 1.4% in 1997, a lower rate than 1996. The Energy Information Administration says CO2 emissions rose 1.5% due to consumption of fossil fuels, but other GHGs were relatively flat at 0.7%. U-S emissions grew 2.8% in 1996 due to cold weather that pushed demand for fossil-fuel electricity. Of the 19 million tonne increase in CO2 emissions, 11 million tonne were in commercial consumption and 5 million tonne in the industrial sector. For the first time in six years, the transportation sector made little contribution to CO2 growth. >From 1990 to 1997, U-S emissions rose 10%. CF ---------- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - TRENDS in RENEWABLE ENERGIES is circulated by the Canadian Association for Renewable Energies. A number of news sources are used; CARE is not responsible for errors. Further details or contact information are not available. TRENDS is designed to provide an overview of the progress of renewable energies around the world. Back issues are posted on By: Bill Eggertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 9 12:09:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21324 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:09:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25121; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:13:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:09:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24413 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24407 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:09:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-21-45.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.45]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA08683; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:21:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:26:18 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0BD3.C5439C20.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'dpharazim@cyberzone.net'" , greenbuilding Subject: RE: GBlist: Vapor barriers in wood construction Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:22:59 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4850 On Monday, November 09, 1998 9:04 AM, Dan and Pam [SMTP:dpharazim@cyberzone.net] wrote: > On my projects, I prefer to specify unfaced batt insulation, with a > 6-mil poly vapor barrier. Wether this is good or not depends on what your climate is. Where the heck are you!? >However, I see more and more often that the > preferred method of insulating is to use faced batts, with the edges > stapled to the sides of the studs or rafters, leaving the wood exposed. > This approach was also detailed in the last issue of Fine Homebuilding. > It seems to me that this produces no vapor barrier at all, since it > introduces a limitless number of gaps in the envelope. Comments? This produces a reasonable vapour barrier. But it does almost nothing to control air flow. Remember, a vapour barrier only stops vapour diffusion and need not be continuous. It is rarely the cause of serious moisture problems. An air barrier system's function is to stop air leaks and so must be continuous, stiff, and relatively air impermeable. Air leakage is the most common cause of serious interstial condensation in both hot and cold climates. In every climate you need a good air barrier system, of which poly could be a part or not. Sealing the sheathing and/or the drywall in an airtight manner is the best way to get a good air barrier system. Vapour barriers are not necessary that often, and usually ordinary paint is sufficient to control vapour diffusion. This depends on climate and assembly though. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 9 12:09:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21322 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:08:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25145; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:13:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:10:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24442 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:09:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24430 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:09:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-21-45.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.45]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA08701; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:21:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:26:24 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0BD3.C867BF80.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Bruce'" , "'Joseph Arons Charlson'" Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Lumber vs. SIPs Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:25:04 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4851 On Sunday, November 08, 1998 10:49 PM, Bruce [SMTP:builder@ivnet.net] wrote: > And none of this addresses shear sheathing. Putting shear sheathing > outside of either the Snap-Caps or insulated sheathing would just let > the fasteners bend. I suppose you could use ThermoPly on the inside of > the wall. Do Easterners not worry at all about seismic or high winds? We apply a diagonal cold-formed steel T section into a saw kerf cut into the 2x4 wood framing. The strength of this diagonal is very easily predicted (steel strap nailed at the end) and quite reliable. We do need to have a table with the length of wall that one has before placing the diagonal. Using plywood for shear bracing is overkill and only sensible if the plywood also does some other function (like act as a wind barrier etc) There is absolutely no technical need to compromise structural strength when using insulated sheathing. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 9 12:09:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21327 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 12:09:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26113; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:20:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:17:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25489 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:16:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25459 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA18683 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 10:26:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md18-05.ix.netcom.com(205.184.107.5) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma018601; Mon Nov 9 10:26:08 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981109112404.00725f44@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 11:24:07 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Lecture announcement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4852 Buildings for the 21st Century Lecture Series You are invited to attend a new series of noon lectures co-sponsored by the DOE's Office of Building Technology, State and Community Programs and the National Building Museum. Presenters from the public and private sectors will focus on BTS-sponsored research, design approaches, and construction techniques that will help the U.S. building industry produce more energy-efficient, environmentally sustainable, comfortable, and affordable residential and commercial buildings. All lectures are at the National Building Museum, 401 F Street NW, Washington, DC (Immediately across the street from the Judiciary Square Metro Station on the Red Line-F Street exit). The lectures are free and no registration is necessary. Dates and topics: Affordable Solar Housing Wednesday, November 18, 1998 12:30 - 2:00 p.m. Don Bradley, president of Bradley Builders and Developers, Inc., will discuss his company's line of integrated solar homes, which feature passive solar architecture, photovoltaics, highly insulated construction, high-efficiency lights and appliances, and solar hot water systems. School Design Opportunities Wednesday, January 27, 1999 12:30 - 2:00 p.m. Gregg Ander is chief architect for the Customer Solutions Unit of Southern California Edison and author of more than 50 technical and design related articles. His presentation will focus on portable classrooms, required by many school districts to accommodate changes in student enrollment, and will address designing for energy efficiency, indoor air quality, construction durability, first costs, and the effectiveness of space as a learning environment. Future topics will be announced soon. To be placed on the lecture series mailing list, please contact Jim Fremont (james.fremont@ee.doe.gov), phone: 202-586-5735. For more information on the National Building Museum, please see the Museum's web site at http://www.nbm.org, or call 1-202-272-2448. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 9 21:35:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA07988 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:35:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA04267; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:21:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:16:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA03683 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:16:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03677 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 21:16:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.253.23.110] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:34:19 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Floor Covering. Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 18:30:51 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "John Abrams" , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1301486035-3573582@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4853 John I think you'll find MATS, Inc. at: MATS, Inc. 37 Shuman Avenue Stoughton MA 02072 Tel: 800-628-7462 Fax: 781-344-1537 Well, I know the toll free phone number works, because I just tried it. It was after hours, so I couldn't confirm the rest. Bruce >>John, thanks for the 'lead' on alternative flooring, but this phone number >>is NOT a business. > >Sorry about the mis-information. MAPS,Inc. seems to be out of business. >Anyone know where Eco-Tile can be found? >Danny - You asked: > >>I am looking for rubber floor mats or floor covering for the interior of a >>house.The goal is to cover a concrete floor to provide cushioning for >>walking and children playing and falling. We don't want to use carpet >>because it gets too dirty and we don't want to attach the floor covering >>down. I am finding various sources of rubber mats but I am unfamiliar with >>the potential outgasing of any toxins from these products. Anybody have any >>experience or opinions about the IAQ issues related to this sort of thing?- > >Try Eco-Tile: colorful 100% recycled PVC. Ingenious interlocking tiles, >just pound 'em together with a mallet. 6 colors - they'll do a custom >color if you need 50,000 SF for your next shopping mall project. Available >from MATS Inc., Braintree MA 781-848-6313. Don't know about outgassing. > >John > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 9 23:16:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA09741 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:16:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09006; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 23:02:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:59:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08701 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08695 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:59:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (ke-ppp13.hevanet.com [198.5.254.163]) by hevanet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA28248 for ; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 20:11:15 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3647BCDF.6CB55CA0@hevanet.com> Date: Mon, 09 Nov 1998 20:12:25 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4854 Hi, All-- Is wood smoke hazardous? Or are we over-reacting? You can find extensive information about the health effects of wood burning at http://burningissues.org. Here's a brief excerpt from a Philadelphia Inquirer article of Dec. 19, 1994, "Yule logs are hazardous to your health" by Art Carey. "Then there's this, from Environmental Protection Agency researchers: Your cancer risk from wood stove emissions is 12 times that from the same amount of cigarette smoke. "Wood smoke decreases lung function. It aggravates asthma, emphysema, pneumonia and bronchitis. It stings the eyes and triggers headaches and allergies. Long-term exposure may lead to emphysema, chronic bronchitis, arteriosclerosis, and nasal, throat, lung, blood and lymph-system cancers. "Wood smoke emits hazardous quantities of carbon monoxide, a colorless, odorless toxic gas that robs the blood of oxygen and can cause drowsiness, fatigue, headaches, heart pain and heart attacks. "Wood smoke is especially threatening to newborns, young children and the elderly. "As a fuel, wood is a thousand times dirtier than gas. Heating with a wood stove for one season generates as much pollution as driving a car 130,000 miles. Burn a 20-pound stack of wood in an evening and you've put a pound of pollution into the air. That pollution can stay airborne for three weeks and travel up to 700 miles. On heavy-burning evenings in some residential communities, the air is dirtier and more noxious than that around an aluminum smelting plant. "In wintertime, wood smoke is often trapped under a heavy layer of cold air, so there's no route for vertical dispersal. Result: As much as 70 percent re-enters your home (augmenting the pollution already there) or the homes of nearby neighbors. Because the smoke particles are so fine, and no house is completely airtight, there's no way to prevent smoke from invading through cracks in windows, doors, siding, etc." Best, Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 05:32:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA14519 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 05:32:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA22031; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 05:18:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 05:15:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA21775 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 05:14:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from server.totalnetnh.net (server.totalnetnh.net [216.64.14.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA21771 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 05:14:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [216.64.14.32] (s2.terminal1.totalnetnh.net [216.64.14.32]) by server.totalnetnh.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA10090 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 05:24:41 -0500 Message-Id: <199811101024.FAA10090@server.totalnetnh.net> Subject: GBlist: Phase change materials Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 05:26:56 -0500 x-sender: wsmith@server.totalnetnh.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bill Smith To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4855 I recently had a phone call from a customer inquiring about phase change materials for heat storage. I recall that about twenty years ago these things were available, but now I never seem to hear about them. The primary advantage over thermal mass storage(as my failing memory recalls) was that they would not release heat until the surrounding air dropped below a certain temperature, thus smoothing the temperature curve. I would like to hear what the group knows of the current state of this technology and if it still has practical applications. Especially on smaller scale (residential) projects. Thanks. Bill Smith Concord, NH williammsmith@usa.net Though self employed, my opinions do not reflect those of my employer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 08:10:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA16925 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:10:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA26239; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:56:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:52:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA25928 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:52:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA25924 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:52:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA01974 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:04:05 -0600 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:01:48 -0600 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: Sheer sheathing Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 07:01:44 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4856 > On Sunday, November 08, 1998 10:49 PM, Bruce [SMTP:builder@ivnet.net] > wrote: > > And none of this addresses shear sheathing. Putting shear sheathing > > outside of either the Snap-Caps or insulated sheathing would just let > > the fasteners bend. I suppose you could use ThermoPly on the inside of > > the wall. Do Easterners not worry at all about seismic or high winds? > We apply a diagonal cold-formed steel T section into a saw kerf cut into > the 2x4 wood framing. The strength of this diagonal is very easily > predicted (steel strap nailed at the end) and quite reliable. We do need > to have a table with the length of wall that one has before placing the > diagonal. Using plywood for shear bracing is overkill and only sensible > if > the plywood also does some other function (like act as a wind barrier etc) > There is absolutely no technical need to compromise structural strength > when using insulated sheathing. > - ------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube > Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group > 165 Albert St University of Waterloo > Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. > Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 > Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 > Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Now, wait a minute here, John.....I recall reading an article in a back-issue of either "Fine Homebuilding" or J.L.C., regarding the bracing strength of wood boards vs. steels strap vs. osb and plywood. While the steel strapping DOES result in stronger bracing than diagonal wood boards, the plywood bracing was MUCH stronger than any of the other materials. So, doesn't it make sense, in areas of high winds, or prone to seismic activity, to use plywood bracing? - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 09:40:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23259 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:40:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00972; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:26:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:22:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA00542 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:22:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00535 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:22:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.123] (pm0a8.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.72]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA28998; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:34:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:34:39 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199811101024.FAA10090@server.totalnetnh.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Bill Smith , From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Phase change materials Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4857 At 5:26 AM -0500 11/10/98, Bill Smith wrote: >I recently had a phone call from a customer inquiring about phase change >materials for heat storage. I recall that about twenty years ago these >things were available, but now I never seem to hear about them. The >primary advantage over thermal mass storage(as my failing memory recalls) >was that they would not release heat until the surrounding air dropped >below a certain temperature, thus smoothing the temperature curve. > >I would like to hear what the group knows of the current state of this >technology and if it still has practical applications. Especially on >smaller scale (residential) projects. As far as I know, there has been very little commercial activity with phase-change materials. U.S. Gypsum was investigating the commercialization of a phase-change wallboard for a while, but someone at USG told me they had dropped the effort. I believe that research on phase-change wallboard had been done at a university or federal energy research laboratory. If anyone else knows of commercially available products, I too would be very interested. -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News Brattleboro, Vermont http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 09:54:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23539 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:54:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02302; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:41:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:37:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA01743 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:37:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01739 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:37:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id IAA0000020998; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:49:44 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981110145236.0074504c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 08:52:36 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: wood/bamboo over radiant heat floors Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4858 Would appreciate comments on the viability of installing wood over a radiant heated floor. Have talked to several manufacturers who tell me that it's OK with a number of caveats (those being the usual ones for installing wood floors--ie should allow the material to sit inside for a while etc.), but I would like to see some real life responses as well. It frankly goes slightly against the grain to put wood over heat-albeit relatively low heat. I am even more interested in the possibility of using some bamboo flooring (rather than the wood). I've read EBN's article on this but would like more information--chances to joint separation for instance, expansion and contraction--more or less than wood for instance? Does anyone out there know of instances where these floors have been installed without radiant heating? How have these fared? To my knowledge, even in Asia, where bamboo is ubiquitous, it isn't used for strip flooring, though its made into just about everything else. thanks, Sacie Lambertson. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 11:31:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26321 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:31:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09519; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:17:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:13:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09211 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:13:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09203 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on5-36.netcom.ca [207.181.91.100]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01959; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:24:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981110110915.00a00580@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:23:20 -0400 To: obrien@hevanet.com From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, john@gulland.ca In-Reply-To: <3647BCDF.6CB55CA0@hevanet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4859 At 08:12 PM 09/11/98 -0800, Michael O'brien wrote: >Hi, All-- > >Is wood smoke hazardous? Or are we over-reacting? You can find extensive >information about the health effects of wood burning at >http://burningissues.org. > The burning issues site is indeed worth visiting. It has a very extensive bibliography on the health effects of woodsmoke, and lung problems from woodsmoke are a major third world health issue. The site's author's own views are on the extreme side, however. She is essentially dedicated to the total elimination of woodburning from the face of the earth. Her data on the emissions from woodstoves is quite dated and does not mention major changes in the technology that have taken place over the last 10 years, due to EPA regulation. Emissions from current EPA-certified stoves are about 90% less than those in the studies from the mid 80's that she references. For a more balanced perspective, see for example: http://www.wood-heat.com/clearing.htm Best.........Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 12:00:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27042 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:00:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11297; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:46:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:43:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10766 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:42:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10761 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:42:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 23199 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 16:54:39 -0000 Received: from userj260.uk2.uudial.com (HELO ) (194.69.101.107) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 16:54:39 -0000 Message-ID: <36485783.1D80@dial.pipex.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 15:10:59 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Reply-To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bion D. Howard" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: US Greenhouse Gas Emissions References: <3.0.32.19981109112911.00723afc@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4860 Bion D. Howard wrote: > U-S emissions of greenhouse gases rose 1.4% in 1997, a lower > rate than 1996.... I note, though, that this is still a rise when what we need is a fall... and that the US congress won't ratify the Kyoto agreement thereby rendering it nonfunctional because of the massive size of the US contribution to CO2 emissions. Now, here's an idea from this ignorant limey. There may be very good constitutional reasons why it can't fly, but here it is anyway. If the federal legislature is going to persist in obstructing the only international framework we have for countering / mitigating climate change, why can't state legislatures be persuaded to ratify it for their own states? If California, New York and a few others were to do so then there would surely be a possibility of getting sufficient international critical mass behind the treaty. (Nowhere in Europe is going to obstruct once it's clear the treaty has a future.) Is this an option? Can anyone think of any other ways of getting around the US veto? - we need you guys on board somehow! Mark Bigland-Pritchard hyphen@dial.pipex.com Bristol, England ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 12:01:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27077 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:01:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11318; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:46:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:43:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10776 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:42:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10767 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:42:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 23246 invoked from network); 10 Nov 1998 16:54:46 -0000 Received: from userj260.uk2.uudial.com (HELO ) (194.69.101.107) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 10 Nov 1998 16:54:46 -0000 Message-ID: <3648671D.556B@dial.pipex.com> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:17:34 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Reply-To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Wilson CC: Bill Smith , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Phase change materials References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4861 The _main_ advantage of phase change materials for thermal storage is that the mass (and hence volume) required for a given storage capacity is small compared to rocks, concrete and even water. As you say, Bill, they absorb / release (in a big way) at a particular temperature. This can be an advantage or a disadvantage, depending on (i) the temperature and (ii) your application. I did a literature search on the subject a couple of years ago, and came up with quite a lot of recent stuff on low temperature storage (for airconditioning applications) and very high temperature storage (for spaceship applications), but not much for the sort of temperature ranges I assume we are all talking about. The situation at present, as I understand it, is as follows: Thermal storage in a number of salt hydrates has been the primary line of investigation. There are a number of good candidates, but the problem with all of them is that after a number of "cycles" they seem to get tired and give up... - something to do with the fragmentation of the crystal structure. A number of additives have been tried, with varying degrees of success. A more recently-pursued option is organic chemicals. Different researchers have looked at fatty acids, esters, ethers and alkenes. In most cases we're talking about a carefully-proportioned mixture of a number of pure chemicals, to depress the melting point. This may be encapsulated into building materials (plasterboard, concrete, etc), or absorbed into them. I don't think this is a problem-free option either - but may be worth looking into further. As it's relatively novel, you might actually be able to get free samples from some chemical company or other for either an experimental application or a demonstration project. The leading work in this last field was being done by teams at Concordia University, Montreal, and at Helsinki. My hunch is that this is a workable technology, but an expensive one, and will only really have large-scale applicablity when fuel costs rise. Anyway, all the best, Mark Bigland-Pritchard hyphen@dial.pipex.com Bristol, England ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 12:22:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27646 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:22:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13302; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:08:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:04:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12697 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:04:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12684 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:04:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust41.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.41]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id LAA10320; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:16:08 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <364875B1.4F72@gte.net> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:19:45 -0500 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com CC: "Bion D. Howard" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: US Greenhouse Gas Emissions References: <3.0.32.19981109112911.00723afc@popd.ix.netcom.com> <36485783.1D80@dial.pipex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4862 Mark, Great idea to break the Kyoto logjam, but my understanding is that only the US Senate can ratify, or sign onto, international treaties. Perhaps individual states could set their own CO2 caps, however, or legislate declining annual emissions. Anybody know of individual state efforts to slash emissions? On some issues, ie appliance efficiency, alternative fuel vehicles, and some other clean air measures, state legislation more stringent than federal regulations has ultimately resulted in stricter national standards. How about it California, Massachusetts, Vermont, Washington etc. Any opportunities to lead the way out of this one? Cindy Shea Promoting Sustainable Development & Florida Sustainable Communities Center http://sustainable.state.fl.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 12:23:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27684 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:23:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13421; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:09:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:05:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12876 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:05:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12829 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:05:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA17836 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:17:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md18-58.ix.netcom.com(205.184.107.58) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma017716; Tue Nov 10 11:16:37 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981110121433.00726d7c@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:14:35 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Brief survey request from EEBA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4863 Brief survey requested by EEBA ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Preface: this request was cleared by the list manager for posting on the Green Building discussion list. Complaints should be addressed to: Bion Howard NOT the GB-list at large. This request was also posted on the EEBA energy efficient building list. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- As EEBA prepares for the 21st Century, EEBA Board officers and active members would like to obtain feedback from energy efficiency, solar designers, architects, engineers, and other building professionals on issues important to you and your professional practice. EEBA is engaging in a strategic planning process. More about EEBA link ==> Please "cut&paste" and send your responses to: 1. What is your number one research need / problem area in building science? 2. Is builder training on energy efficiency, moisture problems, IAQ, or other building science issues (a)_ available and (b)_ adequate in your area? 3. Would your organization like to provide a venue for future EEBA training? 4. Could your organization or company help promote an EEBA "mini-conference" in your area during the next 2 to 5 years? 5. Other comments or concerns are invited:______________ Submitted by: Bion Howard, Life Member EEBA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 12:24:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27711 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:24:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12680; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:04:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:00:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12049 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:00:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from icarus.idirect.com (icarus.idirect.com [207.136.80.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12035 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:00:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from terminus.idirect.com (terminus.idirect.com [207.136.80.70]) by icarus.idirect.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA09852 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:12:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.idirect.com (ts7-6t-45.idirect.com [209.161.229.93]) by terminus.idirect.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with SMTP id MAA03126 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:13:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001801be0ccd$39c085a0$5de5a1d1@ns.idirect.com> Reply-To: "dmonk" From: "dmonk" To: Subject: GBlist: Entering the greenbuilding field Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:11:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4864 Recently Bion Howard posted an email from a student who was interested in a career in greenbuilding. I have been asking myself similar questions, namely "how?". I'm sure this list is full of interesting stories about how the people on it came into the field. I'd be curious to hear some feedback on that. Thanks, Dave Monk ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 12:28:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA28232 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:28:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14005; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:14:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:11:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13603 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:10:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ci.portland.or.us (pdxnet.ci.portland.or.us [207.109.34.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13590 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from linux1.bis.city (root@linux1.bis.city [10.80.1.15]) by ci.portland.or.us (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id JAA51582 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:25:15 -0800 Received: from issd1.bis.city (issd1.bis.city [10.80.1.16]) by linux1.bis.city (8.7.3/8.7.1) with SMTP id KAA07853 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:21:53 -0800 Received: from Portland-Message_Server by issd1.bis.city with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:22:54 -0800 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 09:25:17 -0800 From: Curt Nichols To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: US Greenhouse Gas Emissions -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4865 Mark__ You have a good point about state action. That could happen. But, something is already happening on an even more local level. Many US cities have their own greenhouse gas emission reduction goals/stratagies. I know Portland (Oregon) has one. Minneapolis-St Paul and Dade County Florida (Miami) are a couple others. In total, I think there are 20 or 30 US cities that have taken (or are taking) this approach -- local CO2 emission reduction goals. Most are participating in an effort called US Cities for Climate Protection. States can and should act too. Good idea. Curt Curt Nichols Portland Energy Office ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 12:48:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA28869 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15738; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:33:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:30:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15265 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15254 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:29:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust41.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.41]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id LAA11664; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:41:52 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36487BBB.4A94@gte.net> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:45:31 -0500 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: fdi@nettally.com, lpeterso@famu.edu, jminter@nettally.com Subject: GBlist: Traditional Neighborhoods in Florida Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4866 Dear Listers, I attended a great conference this weekend in Seaside, FL, about New Urbanism and Sustainable Communities. Seaside was the first traditional neighborhood development in the country, built in the Florida panhandle in 1982. Robert Davis is the developer and Andres Duany and Elizabeth Plater Zyberk did the plan. There are now over 200 TNDs planned and under construction across the US, according to Rob Steuteville's survey for New Urban News. Florida leads the way with more than 40. The problem is that even though these developments foster community, mix residential and commercial space, build at higher densities, and are often inherently better environmentally because they have narrower roads, back alleys etc., the developers are not yet looking at the big environmental questions. Bioregional metabolisms, site orientation and landscaping, and green building strategies and materials are usually ignored. Tioga near Gainesville is one of the very few exceptions nationwide, and even it could be much better. Given the large #s of new buildings that will be erected in these communities over the next few years and the great reservoir of talent on this list, how do we combine the two? Not only are lots of TNDs planned in the southeast section of the state, the St. Joe Paper Company is sitting on one million acres and lots of cash and says publicly that it is committed to building TNDs on its property. Peter Rummel, who managed the Celebration project for Disney, is now Chairman of the Board. Other high level executives are also experienced in the smart growth/TND sector. If you have suggestions re how to penetrate the TND market with a green building perspective, I'd love to hear them. As contributing editor of the Florida Sustainable Communities Center, I can get the necessary ideas in front of the state's planners, government agencies, and increasingly the private sector development community. Efforts in Florida, as well as the ULI/EPA national efforts on Smart Growth seem a logical, and potentially huge, consumer of your knowledge, products, and services. Looking forward to closer collaboration, Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development & Florida Sustainable Communities Center http://sustainable.state.fl.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 12:59:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29177 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:59:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16943; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:44:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:40:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16455 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:40:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16443 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:40:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-192-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.192]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA32205; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:55:41 -0500 Message-ID: <36487D53.5AD15EBA@together.net> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:52:20 -0500 From: Thomas Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Wilson CC: Bill Smith , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Phase change materials References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4867 My area of knowledge involves commercial buildings, and there is little application of Phase Change Materials (PCM's), at least from my observation of standard HVAC designs. Most PCM applications involve off-peak generation and storage of "coolth", or a very cool thermal storage medium for use during peak load daytime hours. A few years ago, one firm advertised encapsulated PCM's, which were enclosed in a small plastic ball about the size of a golf ball. Put these in a water storage tank and charge by running very cool chilled water around them during off-peak generation. When discharging the thermal cool the next day, the warmer chilled water return "melted" the PCM, releasing the stored cool BTU's. I have not followed up an special storage systems like this, so am not fully up to date. PCM's change phase from solid to liquid when discharging, just as fresh water ice does. The benefit is that it takes 133 BTU's to melt one pound of ice by changing the temperature 1 F from solid to liquid, verses 1.0 BTU per pound without changing phase. Personally, my observation, for commercial buildings, are to avoid the expense of special thermal mass storage in favor of some very promising research ASHRAE has been doing. Most interesting, they took a standard US type sprawl office building in Chicago, which had two identical building wings, and using only the existing standard DDC (automated) controls, applied night flush and mechanical subcooling of office space to only one of the wings. A brief burst of heating applied just before occupancy maintained comfort. This simple, low cost scheme saved tremendous amounts of money in power cost savings, as well as avoidance of hundreds of thousands of US $ dollars for an additional chiller. Note the diurnal temperature swings in most Mid West and NE US northern areas are about 20 F to 25 F, which makes this concept possible. A lot of money can be saved from power bills, though not necessarily less total energy consumed. Tom Anderson South Burlington, Vermont Initial tests Alex Wilson wrote: > At 5:26 AM -0500 11/10/98, Bill Smith wrote: > >I recently had a phone call from a customer inquiring about phase change > >materials for heat storage. I recall that about twenty years ago these > >things were available, but now I never seem to hear about them. The > >primary advantage over thermal mass storage(as my failing memory recalls) > >was that they would not release heat until the surrounding air dropped > >below a certain temperature, thus smoothing the temperature curve. > > > >I would like to hear what the group knows of the current state of this > >technology and if it still has practical applications. Especially on > >smaller scale (residential) projects. > > As far as I know, there has been very little commercial activity with > phase-change materials. U.S. Gypsum was investigating the commercialization > of a phase-change wallboard for a while, but someone at USG told me they > had dropped the effort. I believe that research on phase-change wallboard > had been done at a university or federal energy research laboratory. If > anyone else knows of commercially available products, I too would be very > interested. > > -Alex Wilson, Editor > Environmental Building News > Brattleboro, Vermont > http://www.ebuild.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 13:50:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00279 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:50:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20565; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:36:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:32:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA20191 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:32:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA20187 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 13:32:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA05310 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:43:48 -0600 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:41:32 -0600 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: plywood vs. metal strapping, for bracing Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 12:41:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4868 > ------------------------------ > > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:25:04 -0500 > From: John Straube > Subject: RE: GBlist: Lumber vs. SIPs > > On Sunday, November 08, 1998 10:49 PM, Bruce [SMTP:builder@ivnet.net] > wrote: > > And none of this addresses shear sheathing. Putting shear sheathing > > outside of either the Snap-Caps or insulated sheathing would just let > > the fasteners bend. I suppose you could use ThermoPly on the inside of > > the wall. Do Easterners not worry at all about seismic or high winds? > We apply a diagonal cold-formed steel T section into a saw kerf cut into > the 2x4 wood framing. The strength of this diagonal is very easily > predicted (steel strap nailed at the end) and quite reliable. We do need > to have a table with the length of wall that one has before placing the > diagonal. Using plywood for shear bracing is overkill and only sensible > if > the plywood also does some other function (like act as a wind barrier > etc)...................... > - ------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube > Building Envelope Engineering > > > John - Here's the reference I was looking for: http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/bracing.html It's an article from the Univ. of Massachusetts. According to the figures in this article, metal t-strapping seems to be inadequate for proper bracing. - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 16:38:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA07923 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:38:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03089; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:24:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:20:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02440 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:20:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02415 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:20:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-31-19.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.19]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA15606; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:32:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:37:04 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0CC8.59321700.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Patrick Pierquet'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: RE: Sheer sheathing Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:44:31 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4869 On Tuesday, November 10, 1998 8:02 AM, Patrick Pierquet [SMTP:ppierquet@Teltech.com] wrote: > Now, wait a minute here, John.....I recall reading an article in a > back-issue of either "Fine Homebuilding" or J.L.C., regarding the bracing > strength of wood boards vs. steels strap vs. osb and plywood. While the > steel strapping DOES result in stronger bracing than diagonal wood boards, > the plywood bracing was MUCH stronger than any of the other materials. So, > doesn't it make sense, in areas of high winds, or prone to seismic activity, > to use plywood bracing? You are strictly correct, but, plywod comes in different thicknesses with different nailing patterns. Diagonal straps can be as thick as 14 gauge x 3" and as thin as 20 gauge x 3/4". You can use one strap or three. Get the picture? I agree that putting up 1/2" ply and nailing with 3" nails at 8" centers provides outstanding shear resistance. But is point of greenbuilding not making good use of our resources? In the highest zone of earthquakes with tall narrow houses this is needed. In more than 90% of North America, such sheathing is not needed FOR STRUCTURAL PURPOSES! Wood sheathing maybe useful for other purposes. I guess I was just talking like an engineer. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 16:38:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA07927 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:38:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03091; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:24:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:20:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02467 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:20:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02443 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:20:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-31-19.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.19]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA15630; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:32:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:37:08 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0CC8.5BCFF360.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Jennifer Corson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: steel recycling embodied energy Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:49:19 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4870 On Monday, November 09, 1998 11:42 AM, Jennifer Corson [SMTP:corson@chebucto.ns.ca] wrote: > Has anyone seen/researched the energy requirements of manufacturing metals > used in construction, eg. aluminum, copper, steel, brass..? I would like > to present a comparison of the energy required (total embodied energy, if > available) when manufacturing with virgin material versus recycled metal. There are several sources of the energy required to make new metals, but what about recyvlced? The steel companies say that about 65% of all new steel is made from scrap. But how much energy does it require to recycle the steel? Surely melting and rolling steel will require a significant input of energy, making even recycled steel more resource intensvie than properly-mananged wood, and likely concrete too? Any comments or info. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 16:38:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA07933 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:38:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03093; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:24:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:20:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02410 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:20:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02402 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:20:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-31-19.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.19]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA15581; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:32:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 16:37:01 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0CC8.57547D60.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Bill Smith'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Phase change materials Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 10:39:13 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4871 On Tuesday, November 10, 1998 5:27 AM, Bill Smith [SMTP:wsmith@totalnetnh.net] wrote: > primary advantage over thermal mass storage(as my failing memory recalls) > was that they would not release heat until the surrounding air dropped > below a certain temperature, thus smoothing the temperature curve. Phase change materials have the advnatge of acing like a huge amount of thermal mass over a narrow temperature range while not weighing or bulking a lot. If you do not care too much about the use of lots of mass, PCMs have limited advantages > I would like to hear what the group knows of the current state of this > technology and if it still has practical applications. Especially on > smaller scale (residential) projects. The best that I know of is the inclusion of glycerines into gypsum drywall at Concordia University in Montreal. They have made drywall that meets the fire codes and has the thermal mass equivelant of 3 to 4" of concrete at 22 C. CI beleive they await an interested company to market the product. It should not be too much more expensive in large quanitites. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 19:18:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA13411 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:18:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA14818; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:04:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:00:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA13995 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:00:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13991 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:00:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on6-35.netcom.ca [207.181.91.163]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA26502; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:11:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981110184322.00992f00@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:10:16 -0400 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, john@gulland.ca In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19981110110915.00a00580@mha-net.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4872 At 01:08 PM 10/11/98 -0700, Jorg Ostrowski wrote: > >Norbert: Do you think that for a new "Eco-Village" > high efficiency fireplaces should be allowed? Jorg Jorg: In general terms, it makes sense to displace fossil fuel with a potentially carbon-neutral fuel like wood. Of course, there are a number of provisos. Particulate emissions (particularly polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons) is probably the main issue, and there are some excellent technologies available today, including high-efficiency fireplaces. It is worth noting that the spread in the most harmful PAH emissions between the best technologies (pellet stoves, masonry heaters) and the worst ("outdoor furnaces") looks like it could be on the order of 1:1000. Other issues that come to mind are certification of the fuel (sustainable forestry operation, etc.), and proper operator training. Of course, the prime method of displacing fossil fuel should be energy efficient construction. According to a recent analysis by Blanchard and Reppe http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub/research/lcahome/index.html the life cycle consumption of a typical new house is 2,525 barrels of oil, only 6.3% of which is embodied energy, versus 927 barrels for the same house with energy efficient design. In other words, don't worry about using lots of styrofoam, or whatever, if it leads to a lower heating load. Best.....Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 21:19:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA20047 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:19:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA20785; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:05:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:02:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20493 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:01:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA20488 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 21:01:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 13794 invoked by alias); 11 Nov 1998 02:13:58 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 13775 invoked by uid 0); 11 Nov 1998 02:13:58 -0000 Received: from kdialup121.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.180.241.121) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 11 Nov 1998 02:13:58 -0000 Message-ID: <003901be0d18$fee5c5c0$79f1b4d1@h5n5y7> From: "Peter F. Alspach" To: , "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: wood/bamboo over radiant heat floors Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:14:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4873 A friend of mine had a radiant floor heating system with wood T&G floors and had absolutely no problems. The one thing I'd look into about the bamboo is increased off-gassing of the binders due to the increased temperatures. Peter Alspach jupiterpete@uswest.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 22:54:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA22391 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:54:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24384; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:40:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:35:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA24031 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:35:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24025 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:35:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-21-48.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.48]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA07086; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:47:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 22:52:04 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0CFC.BC9AB520.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'hvac@together.net'" , Alex Wilson Cc: Bill Smith , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Phase change materials Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:04:25 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4874 On the subject of phase change materials. I am pretty sure (cant think of why not, maybe someone can enlightne me), that PCMs act just like thermal mass. Some of the comments made by others confirm that plain old mass, like water and concrete, work quite well. The ASHRAE research about night precooling (which I had not heard of) makes perfect sense, and many theoretical studies had shown this to be true . The advantage of plain old mass (POM) is that it can do two things at once. For example, the cost of a concrete floor may be more than wood, but it adds a lot of thermal mass. If ONLY the extra cost is assigned to the thermal mass account in the budget, then POM is very cheap. For normal wood framed homes, however, PCM treated wallboard have serious advantages, as do retrofit options. I still think it is economically and environmentally best to incorporate a sensible amount of thermal mass into the building, in the form of externally wall structure, load bearing or wearing floors, interior mass and sound walls, fireplaces, plant boxes etc etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 23:26:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA24386 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:26:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA25765; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:12:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:09:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25287 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:08:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25281 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:08:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-21-48.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.48]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA16583; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:20:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:25:36 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0D01.6B57D800.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Patrick Pierquet'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: RE: plywood vs. metal strapping, for bracing Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:12:12 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4875 Thanks for the very interesting link below Patrick. This is a nice summary of some of the issues involved and presents some results I have not seen before. On Tuesday, November 10, 1998 1:41 PM, Patrick Pierquet [SMTP:ppierquet@Teltech.com] wrote: > John - Here's the reference I was looking for: > http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/bracing.html It's an article from the Univ. of > Massachusetts. According to the figures in this article, metal t-strapping > seems to be inadequate for proper bracing. Let me make a few comments. First, while the article sounds reasonable, it does not address why so many homes (in Canada, hundreds of thousands) seem to be working just fine withonly 1x4 braces (min 20 years experience) and metal T's braces (min 15 years). Some of the reasons have to do with the actual manner in which house framing interacts with components like stairs, corners, roofs, etc. Some have to do with the basis of the calculations. I have only heard of a few problems with metal braces and always they appear related to slender structures. Also, much more time is spent on shear bracing than insulated sheathing because, I think, many more professors and professionals can calculate the shear capacity and loads on a wall than understand moisture loads and resistance. I am convinced than several orders of magnitude more problems arise in housing because of moisture than because of the structural inadequacy of the shear bracing in the walls (although EQ zones might be a bit different). In the end, I have never had any trouble making metal bracing work for real design loads (eg 80 mpg gusts) in the few cases I have felt the need to calculate and check. There is however a need out there for tables that the average carpenter can use, and for heavier gauge T straps (nonrmally one has to resort to flat straps for higher loads). ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 10 23:27:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA24400 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:27:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA25767; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:12:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:09:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25315 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:09:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from hil-img-6.compuserve.com (hil-img-6.compuserve.com [149.174.177.136]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25310 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:09:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-6.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.16) id XAA24845; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:20:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 23:19:58 -0500 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: RE: GBlist: steel recycling embodied energy To: "jfstraube@golden.net" Cc: Gregory Thomas <72477.2131@compuserve.com>, "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "'Jennifer Corson'" Message-ID: <199811102320_MC2-5FCE-5CAA@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id XAA25311 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4876 Message text written by "jfstraube@golden.net" >> Has anyone seen/researched the energy requirements of manufacturing metals > used in construction, eg. aluminum, copper, steel, brass..? I would like > to present a comparison of the energy required (total embodied energy, if > available) when manufacturing with virgin material versus recycled metal. There are several sources of the energy required to make new metals, but what about recyvlced? The steel companies say that about 65% of all new steel is made from scrap. But how much energy does it require to recycle the steel? Surely melting and rolling steel will require a significant input of energy, making even recycled steel more resource intensvie than properly-mananged wood, and likely concrete too? Any comments or info. < Check out sustainable-steel.com for info on recycling and embodied energy issues for steel. The energy associated with recycling is much less than the energy of production. One way to think about steel, because of its recyclability, is that the resource is being relocated for the duration of the use but it is still available as a almost fully recoverable for future use. Things get real interesting when you move beyond embodied energy issues and start looking at more diverse measures of ecosystem impacts. The controllable point source pollution of steel production looks real good compared to the ecosystem impacts of clear cutting, etc. Since steel is recoverable as a building systems resource it should figure highly in the creation of a long term resource bank of materials. It is a prototypical technical nutrient. Gregory Thomas 121 Rachel Carson Way Ithaca, NY 14850 g_thomas@compuserve.com 607-277-6240 607-277-6224 fax ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 03:42:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA27565 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:42:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA04316; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:28:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:25:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA04100 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:25:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (f206.hotmail.com [207.82.251.97]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA04094 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 03:25:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 20910 invoked by uid 0); 11 Nov 1998 08:36:41 -0000 Message-ID: <19981111083641.20909.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.30.47.23 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:36:41 PST X-Originating-IP: [38.30.47.23] From: "A. Bambi Tran" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: TJIs and moisture problems MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 00:36:41 PST Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4877 Hello all! I have heard rumors that there are a lot of problems with using TJIs (truss-joist I-beams) for floor joists above a crawl space because of the TJIs' inability to resist moisture. Please, if anyone has any experience with this material then share them. If you have used them in the crawl space.. how? If you have decided not to use them, why not? What then did you use for floor joists? I'm about to install them but hesitate until i confirm or disprove the rumor... Thanks! AB Tran ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 05:32:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA28599 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:32:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA07545; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:17:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:14:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA07319 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:14:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA07310 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:14:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-5.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.5]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:08:44 -0500 Message-ID: <3649911F.5399@cyberzone.net> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:29:03 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding , corson@chebucto.ns.ca Subject: GBlist: embodied energy in materials Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4878 "Has anyone seen/researched the energy requirements of manufacturing metals used in construction, eg. aluminum, copper, steel, brass..? I would like to present a comparison of the energy required (total embodied energy,if available) when manufacturing with virgin material versus recycled metal." Jennifer, The best reference I know of for this topic is the American Institute of Architects' "Environmental Resource Guide", available at aiaonline.com. It's a 3-inch thick binder of all sorts of environmental goodies, including embodied energy and all manner of environmental and economic costs. Yearly supplements are also issued, and the whole thing is rather pricey ($221.00, extra for the supplements). I prepared an in-office seminar this past summer on sustainable design and made some Powerpoint slides with the ERG's full table of contents. I can email you the jpegs (300K in 3 attachments) if you'd like - I can't find the original text files. There are case studies, as well as reports on various building materials and assemblies. Hope this helps. Dan Harazim The S/L/A/M Collaborative Glastonbury, CT harazim@slamcoll.com dpharazim@cyberzone.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 05:49:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA28675 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:49:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA08098; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:35:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:32:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA07854 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:32:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from pimout2-int.prodigy.net (pimout2-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.59.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA07846 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:31:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from prodigy.net (QNCYB102-20.splitrock.net [209.156.196.20]) by pimout2-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA98324; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:43:28 -0500 Message-ID: <3648DC41.7F66CA81@prodigy.net> Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 19:37:21 -0500 From: Alan Page Reply-To: AFMO@prodigy.net Organization: A Forest Maintenance Org., LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mcshea1@gte.net CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: US Greenhouse Gas Emissions References: <3.0.32.19981109112911.00723afc@popd.ix.netcom.com> <36485783.1D80@dial.pipex.com> <364875B1.4F72@gte.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------C3B9C110686EEEB42CE3A8A7" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4879 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------C3B9C110686EEEB42CE3A8A7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Cindy, There are several states that are working on plans to reduce CO2 emissions 10% below 1990 levels by 2010. MA happens to be one of the later entrants, and I have been to most of the major meetings since it started in early 1998. I must say that I am not impressed at the ability of anyone to get beyond the political strangle hold that big money has of this society. Many of the State planners who called this committe to exist are most interested in seeing a credible job done to reduce emissions. However, it is obvious to me at least that without deep public understanding of how thoroughly the money economy has destroyed the sustainability of human interaction with the natural world we can not expect to change things much at all. For instance, the commercialization of everything new has led to the brainwashing of our children to be effective consumers. My son calls this kind of discussion a "rant", so lest you do not want to hear more I'll stop. Write with questions and we can explore more. I have been working on a way to get things moving in the right direction. The attached IDEAS are just a draft. Comment if you wish. Alan Page ----------- DRAFT Ideas November 6, 1998 A Second Economy is needed as a Sustainable Model for the evolution of the present market economy. This Second Economy must be voluntary but have a combination of responsibilities and opportunities structured in it so that those who choose to enter fully understand their obligations and latitude to act. Characteristics of the Second Economy: 1. Sustainable - covenant entry 2. Multiple value driven as opposed to "profit driven" 3. Disbursed - no coastal occupancy 4. Each inhabitant must be responsible for developing an energy credit for use during any extended travel or purchase of goods not produced locally - a maximum energy usage limit per hour (day) must be accepted by all 5. Businesses tied to place, community, family, and workers - no advertising to turn wants into needs - tree model of Ray Anderson 6. One person one vote - no personification of non-person entities 7. Trade within regions for all but the most important basic necessities. 8. No biological transfer between regions 9. Regulations and laws that relate to the ability of the ecosystem to carry that weight. 10. Government limited to the absolute essentials that the populous can not do for itself. As a move to facilitate the development of this economy, a system of fees levied on the present economy will be used to fund rebates to cover the difference between current wages, taxes, and interest rates to be paid to the members of the Second Economy. This model should be seen as a new product being developed within a company. There are several examples of this process that come to mind. 3M through its "product Champions" works out the details of how a new idea will be developed and marketed. There is an umbrella of supports that the company offers to the new group and a strategy that eventually makes the new product stand on its own. IBM's past Electric Typewriter Division was successful for a while at keeping the new microprocessor based computers from invading its market. They were able to make the internal small computer section offer their systems with only coarse dot matrix printers as output devices. Thus, they could not compete with the typewriter as an office tool. Eventually, technical folk left IBM with computer code for word processors and connections to other printer systems, but it was a long time before IBM officially offered letter quality printers. Because of the intransigence of stronger divisions and incompetence in the leadership, IBM lost a potential preeminence in the small computer field. These are two examples of how different groups have handled the opportunity of change. We sit at a similar threshold. Change will occur in many ways in the near future. What path will we choose? The proactive inventive responsible response to overwhelming problems. Or, an authoritarian and rigid adherence to a system that seemed to work in the past and is making some people very rich in the present? > Mark, > > Great idea to break the Kyoto logjam, but my understanding is that only > the US Senate can ratify, or sign onto, international treaties. Perhaps > individual states could set their own CO2 caps, however, or legislate > declining annual emissions. Anybody know of individual state efforts to > slash emissions? > > On some issues, ie appliance efficiency, alternative fuel vehicles, and > some other clean air measures, state legislation more stringent than > federal regulations has ultimately resulted in stricter national > standards. How about it California, Massachusetts, Vermont, Washington > etc. Any opportunities to lead the way out of this one? > > Cindy Shea > Promoting Sustainable Development > & Florida Sustainable Communities Center > http://sustainable.state.fl.us > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ --------------C3B9C110686EEEB42CE3A8A7 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Page, Alan Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Alan Page n: Page;Alan org: A Forest Maintenance Organization email;internet: AFMO@prodigy.net title: Manager note: Web Page: http://pages.prodigy.net/afmo x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------C3B9C110686EEEB42CE3A8A7-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 07:29:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA29663 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:29:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA11258; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:15:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:12:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA11006 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:12:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from server.totalnetnh.net (server.totalnetnh.net [216.64.14.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA11001 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [216.64.14.53] (s23.terminal1.totalnetnh.net [216.64.14.53]) by server.totalnetnh.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA22677 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:21:46 -0500 Message-Id: <199811111221.HAA22677@server.totalnetnh.net> Subject: GBlist: Re: PCM Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:24:11 -0500 x-sender: wsmith@server.totalnetnh.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bill Smith To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4880 Thanks to all who commented on my original question. While, as I expected, there seems to be no "off the shelf" products available, some interesting things do seem to be out there. By the way, I think John Straube may have just elevated the status level of mass by assigning it a TLA (three letter acronym), POM (plain old mass). Bill Smith williammsmith@usa.net Concord NH USA Typo's, misspellings and punctuation errors by the cat in my lap ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 07:47:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA29904 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:47:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA12071; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:33:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:29:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA11716 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA11708 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:29:31 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ027709; Wed, 11 Nov 98 05:39:17 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA50472; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:39:43 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 05:39:43 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: John Straube Cc: "'Jennifer Corson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: steel recycling embodied energy In-Reply-To: <01BE0CC8.5BCFF360.jfstraube@golden.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4881 You said: "The steel companies say that about 65% of all new steel is made from scrap. But how much energy does it require to recycle the steel? " __________________________________________________________________________ John: I would be very interested to know which steel company has significant recycled steel content since we have not found any fabricators of metal roofing that: 1) knows anything about recycled content 2) uses steel with recycled steel Although we use a lot of metal roofing, this has been our experience over many years on real projects. I have tried to specify the % of recycled content based on discussions with suppliers, but still not confirmations and still no numbers. I have heard (rumour) that IPSCO uses recylcled steel but upon further investigation this has not been confirmed. Perhaps for steel in car bodies, well casings, pipelines, etc., but hopefully you are right re: building materials. I have not seen any proof, although searching for a long time. In addition, as you theorize, I too would image that a "cradle to grave scenario" may increase its embodied energy vs new material. Have you or anyone ever tried to get embodied energy numbers from steel manufacturers? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 09:11:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01888 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:11:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15764; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:57:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:51:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15271 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:51:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA15263 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:51:09 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ313893; Wed, 11 Nov 98 07:01:18 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA54706; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:02:30 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:02:30 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Gregory Thomas Cc: "jfstraube@golden.net" , Gregory Thomas <72477.2131@compuserve.com>, "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "'Jennifer Corson'" Subject: RE: GBlist: steel recycling embodied energy In-Reply-To: <199811102320_MC2-5FCE-5CAA@compuserve.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4882 You said:" It is a prototypical technical nutrient." _______________________________________________________________ Greg: Further to your recent posting, how does the quote above relate to the subject? I do not understand? Should I be having low embodied energy recycled steel for breakfast? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 09:37:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02458 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:37:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17672; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:23:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:18:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA17059 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:18:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA17053 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:18:01 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ353877; Wed, 11 Nov 98 07:28:21 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA132746; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:28:55 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:28:54 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Straube Cc: "'hvac@together.net'" , Alex Wilson , Bill Smith , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Mass and Building Time Constant In-Reply-To: <01BE0CFC.BC9AB520.jfstraube@golden.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4883 YOU SAID:"I still think it is economically and environmentally best to incorporate a sensible amount of thermal mass into the building, in the form of externally wall structure, load bearing or wearing floors, interior mass and sound walls, fireplaces, plant boxes etc etc." _______________________________________________________________________________ Based on detailed calculations, the mass for our home is about 100 tons which includes the slab-on-grade, masonry heater, wood, furniture, drywall, planter boxes, tiles, waterless toilet, plants and fish tanks/hydroponics. What is the mass of a conventional 1850 SF house? Does anyone have a good number for furniture and appliances of a standard home? The next exercise is to calculate the Building Time Constant (decay time) that could be associated with thermal mass. This would indicate the usefulness of thermal mass under duress (ie. power failure, no heat gain: how long would it take for the temperature to drop from 70dF to 40dF). Any recent literature and examples? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 09:49:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02758 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:49:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18858; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:35:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:30:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18440 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:30:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18435 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:30:18 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ918465; Wed, 11 Nov 98 07:40:21 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA108324; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:41:28 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:41:28 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Alan Page Cc: mcshea1@gte.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: US Greenhouse Gas Emissions In-Reply-To: <3648DC41.7F66CA81@prodigy.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4884 Have any cities taken initiatives on the above that set the standard for leadship and progress. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 10:23:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03979 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:23:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20480; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:09:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:03:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20108 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:03:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20104 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:03:46 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ363236; Wed, 11 Nov 98 08:14:22 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA50498; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:15:32 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:15:32 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Norbert Senf Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , john@gulland.ca, John LaGamba Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981110184322.00992f00@mha-net.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4885 Norbert: Thank you for your response. My main concerns are that even an efficient masonry fireplace (used in our case for space heating, water heater and cooking) is not compatible to healthy housing and environmental point of view. Some of the pollutants are may be carcinogens and seem to be contributing to air pollution, even with the high efficiency (ie. 94% combustion efficiency) of masonry heaters. The fuel would be top grade, no cost, in abundant supply and diverted from landfill sites. Therefore health is my main criteria for making a decisions to allow or disallow masonry heaters (as much as I like them) from a future eco-village in an urban area. Perhaps in 10 years, all wood burning appliances may be banned from all urban areas? Jorg Ostrowski ___________________________________________________________________________ On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Norbert Senf wrote: > At 01:08 PM 10/11/98 -0700, Jorg Ostrowski wrote: > > > >Norbert: Do you think that for a new "Eco-Village" > > high efficiency fireplaces should be allowed? Jorg > > Jorg: In general terms, it makes sense to displace fossil fuel with a > potentially carbon-neutral fuel like wood. Of course, there are a number of > provisos. Particulate emissions (particularly polycyclic aromatic > hydrocarbons) is probably the main issue, and there are some excellent > technologies available today, including high-efficiency fireplaces. It is > worth noting that the spread in the most harmful PAH emissions between the > best technologies (pellet stoves, masonry heaters) and the worst ("outdoor > furnaces") looks like it could be on the order of 1:1000. Other issues that > come to mind are certification of the fuel (sustainable forestry operation, > etc.), and proper operator training. > > Of course, the prime method of displacing fossil fuel should be energy > efficient construction. According to a recent analysis by Blanchard and Reppe > http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub/research/lcahome/index.html > the life cycle consumption of a typical new house is 2,525 barrels of oil, > only 6.3% of which is embodied energy, versus 927 barrels for the same > house with energy efficient design. In other words, don't worry about using > lots of styrofoam, or whatever, if it leads to a lower heating load. > > Best.....Norbert > ---------------------------------------- > Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org > Masonry Stove Builders > RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb > Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 > ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 10:39:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA04379 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:39:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21599; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:24:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:19:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21118 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:19:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21107 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:19:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.140]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3553200 ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:34:07 -0800 Message-ID: <3649AD57.D35C88EF@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:29:27 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mcshea1@gte.net CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, fdi@nettally.com, lpeterso@famu.edu, jminter@nettally.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Traditional Neighborhoods in Florida References: <36487BBB.4A94@gte.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4886 I think the motivating interest will come at the planning level. While there are general environmental concepts that need inclusion each area needs to develop a set of regional criteria that address both localized environmental concerns and conditions. Interest groups such as the one you represent are probably the best vehicle for development and promotion of criteria to be included either in specific projects or as part of a community planning process. I think because there is no common thread to what constitutes good environmental planning at this point the process needs to begin regionally with a localized needs assessment. This could identify areas of environmental weakness that could be addressed in new developments as well as the environmental impact of projects on local environment. Perhaps the key would be to begin with a demand from local interest groups for environmental impact analysis and that could work to establish a green perspective for the development of any project. A community interest group or independent community planning board can insert itself into the planning process and the resulting criteria could by example influence how other such projects are managed. The problems are that most developers and regional planning bodies resent the inclusion of an interest group. The regions tend to see a development project as an influx of cash, jobs, tax base and infrastructure so they are loath to set criteria that would offset more basic benefits such as roads, water/waste systems, etc. To answer your question more directly organizing a conference specifically on environmental directions for planned communities could produce some collaboration. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Cindy Shea wrote: > Dear Listers, > > I attended a great conference this weekend in Seaside, FL, about New > Urbanism and Sustainable Communities. Seaside was the first traditional > neighborhood development in the country, built in the Florida panhandle > in 1982. Robert Davis is the developer and Andres Duany and Elizabeth > Plater Zyberk did the plan. There are now over 200 TNDs planned and > under construction across the US, according to Rob Steuteville's survey > for New Urban News. Florida leads the way with more than 40. The problem > is that even though these developments foster community, mix residential > and commercial space, build at higher densities, and are often > inherently better environmentally because they have narrower roads, back > alleys etc., the developers are not yet looking at the big environmental > questions. Bioregional metabolisms, site orientation and landscaping, > and green building strategies and materials are usually ignored. Tioga > near Gainesville is one of the very few exceptions nationwide, and even > it could be much better. > > Given the large #s of new buildings that will be erected in these > communities over the next few years and the great reservoir of talent on > this list, how do we combine the two? Not only are lots of TNDs planned > in the southeast section of the state, the St. Joe Paper Company is > sitting on one million acres and lots of cash and says publicly that it > is committed to building TNDs on its property. Peter Rummel, who managed > the Celebration project for Disney, is now Chairman of the Board. Other > high level executives are also experienced in the smart growth/TND > sector. > > If you have suggestions re how to penetrate the TND market with a green > building perspective, I'd love to hear them. As contributing editor of > the Florida Sustainable Communities Center, I can get the necessary > ideas in front of the state's planners, government agencies, and > increasingly the private sector development community. Efforts in > Florida, as well as the ULI/EPA national efforts on Smart Growth seem a > logical, and potentially huge, consumer of your knowledge, products, and > services. > > Looking forward to closer collaboration, > Cindy Pollock Shea > Promoting Sustainable Development & > Florida Sustainable Communities Center > http://sustainable.state.fl.us > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 11:12:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA05404 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:12:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24271; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:58:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:53:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23648 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:53:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23644 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 10:52:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.136]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3565100 ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:07:58 -0800 Message-ID: <3649B533.F19077FC@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 08:02:59 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Norbert Senf CC: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , greenbuilding@crest.org, john@gulland.ca Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? References: <4.1.19981110110915.00a00580@mha-net.org> <4.1.19981110184322.00992f00@mha-net.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4887 I like your response to this question. Reducing the requirement for heat is of course the prime concern and we are a long way from creating solutions (primarily economic) for this. The remaining question is a catch-22. Occupant health versus general environmental health. The exploitation of fossil fuels creates a pattern of usage that I think effectively stands in the way of long term energy efficient construction. There is another confusing aspect to this however and that is if for example solar energy was used (as in grid connected pv roofing) and surplus is generated this could reduce the material component required as insulating an environment becomes less of an issue, (this could have good IAQ benefit and might be a more desirable goal) While I personally think wood is preferable to fossil fuel I think its really a non-issue as the use of wood is primarily decorative not space heating and there is not good affordable technology to make it a realistic general option for most construction. The wood burning units that find their way into homes as a living room centerpiece generally have good off the shelf standards but deteriorate quickly and are not maintained so they can become more than a personal health hazard when they are periodically used and contribute little to the heating of a home. I personally think solar is our only real basis for heat but what the various mediums will consist of still seem obscured in clouds of exhausted fuels. John Norbert Senf wrote: > At 01:08 PM 10/11/98 -0700, Jorg Ostrowski wrote: > > > >Norbert: Do you think that for a new "Eco-Village" > > high efficiency fireplaces should be allowed? Jorg > > Jorg: In general terms, it makes sense to displace fossil fuel with a > potentially carbon-neutral fuel like wood. Of course, there are a number of > provisos. Particulate emissions (particularly polycyclic aromatic > hydrocarbons) is probably the main issue, and there are some excellent > technologies available today, including high-efficiency fireplaces. It is > worth noting that the spread in the most harmful PAH emissions between the > best technologies (pellet stoves, masonry heaters) and the worst ("outdoor > furnaces") looks like it could be on the order of 1:1000. Other issues that > come to mind are certification of the fuel (sustainable forestry operation, > etc.), and proper operator training. > > Of course, the prime method of displacing fossil fuel should be energy > efficient construction. According to a recent analysis by Blanchard and Reppe > http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub/research/lcahome/index.html > the life cycle consumption of a typical new house is 2,525 barrels of oil, > only 6.3% of which is embodied energy, versus 927 barrels for the same > house with energy efficient design. In other words, don't worry about using > lots of styrofoam, or whatever, if it leads to a lower heating load. > > Best.....Norbert > ---------------------------------------- > Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org > Masonry Stove Builders > RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb > Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 > ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 13:09:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA08046 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:09:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02697; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:54:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:47:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01988 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:47:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01982 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-44.netcom.ca [207.181.90.108]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13871; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:58:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981111111606.00a4fe40@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:57:17 -0400 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19981110184322.00992f00@mha-net.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4888 At 08:15 AM 11/11/98 -0700, Jorg Ostrowski wrote: > >...My main concerns are that even an >efficient masonry fireplace...is not compatible to healthy housing ...Some of the pollutants are may be carcinogens >and seem to be contributing to air pollution, even with the high >efficiency (ie. 94% combustion efficiency) of masonry heaters. The fuel >would be top grade, no cost, in abundant supply and diverted from landfill >sites. Therefore health is my main criteria for making a decisions to allow >or disallow masonry heaters (as much as I like them) from a future >eco-village in an urban area. Jorg: 94% combustion efficiency is actually quite low. Combustion efficiency only measures the chemical conversion, ie., 6% of the energy is leaving the chimney as either unburned CO or unburned tar. 98% (or better) is more like it. On our heater at home, there is smoke for about 5 - 10 minutes during the startup. In other words, out of a 24 hr. heating cycle the emissions are mainly confined to about 10 minutes. It is not foolproof - for example, a combustion air system designed to burn clean with standard cordwood will result in a fuel-rich (dirty) burn with small, dry wood. So fuelling protocol and operator training become issues if real world emissions are to be kept to a minimum. It is important to consider what the alternatives are. With oil, gas or electricity, you are simply shifting the pollution upstream into somebody else's back yard. >Perhaps in 10 years, all wood burning >appliances may be banned from all urban areas? Jorg Ostrowski Hopefully, the cleaner technologies will still be allowed. Washoe County (Reno NV), for example, banned all woodburning about 5 years ago. Reno is located on a flat plain surrounded by mountains. The pellet stove industry argued that there should be an exemption for technologies that can prove they emit at less than 1 g/hr, since a slightly detuned oil furnace would emit at this rate and still be allowed. The county agreed, although nobody has yet successfully demonstrated sub- 1 gram woodburning technology in field testing. I believe that this is the right approach, because it provides an incentive to develop cleaner technologies. Right now, the EPA regs require 7.5 g/hr, which is still a lot better than an open fireplace or an old technology stove. Best............Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 13:10:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA08094 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:10:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02836; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:56:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:50:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02211 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:49:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02205 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 12:49:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from gorf.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@gorf.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.89]) by donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id NAA20811; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:01:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by gorf.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with SMTP id NAA07490; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:01:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:01:59 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@gorf.rs.itd.umich.edu Reply-To: Peter Reppe To: corson@chebucto.ns.ca cc: Greenbuilding List Subject: Re: GBlist: embodied energy in materials In-Reply-To: <3649911F.5399@cyberzone.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4889 Jennifer- PLease have a look at our new report "life-Cycle Analysis of a Residential Home in Michigan" at http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub/research/lcahome/index.html. Under 2.4 we have a table with energy requirements for material production and part manufacturing of several building materials. For information on recycled materials, please let me know which ones you're looking for, so I can go into our databases and see what we have. Hope this will help. Cheers, Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greening-of-Dana homepage http://www.snre.umich.edu/greendana/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Reppe e-mail: reppe@umich.edu National Pollution Prevention Center phone : 734-936-2535 University of Michigan fax : 734-647-5841 430 E. University Ann Arbor, MI http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub 48109-1115 U.S.A. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reppe -------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Dan and Pam wrote: > "Has anyone seen/researched the energy requirements of manufacturing > metals used in construction, eg. aluminum, copper, steel, brass..? I > would like to present a comparison of the energy required (total > embodied energy,if available) when manufacturing with virgin material > versus recycled metal." > > Jennifer, > The best reference I know of for this topic is the American Institute of > Architects' "Environmental Resource Guide", available at aiaonline.com. > It's a 3-inch thick binder of all sorts of environmental goodies, > including embodied energy and all manner of environmental and economic > costs. Yearly supplements are also issued, and the whole thing is > rather pricey ($221.00, extra for the supplements). I prepared an > in-office seminar this past summer on sustainable design and made some > Powerpoint slides with the ERG's full table of contents. I can email > you the jpegs (300K in 3 attachments) if you'd like - I can't find the > original text files. There are case studies, as well as reports on > various building materials and assemblies. > Hope this helps. > > Dan Harazim > The S/L/A/M Collaborative > Glastonbury, CT > harazim@slamcoll.com > dpharazim@cyberzone.net > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 13:47:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA09101 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:47:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05444; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:33:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:27:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA04817 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:27:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04801; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip4.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.4]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA03575; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:39:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981111184223.009a57fc@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:42:23 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: GBlist: Paint faliures Cc: iaq@onelist.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4890 I'm about to look at a building where the third coat of opaque white stain on a cedar shingle roof turned orange. Are there labs that will examine a sample & some paint from the original batch ?? best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel.516/477-2922 fax.516/345-3169 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 14:48:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA10916 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:48:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09554; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:33:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:29:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08916 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:28:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from arl-img-6.compuserve.com (arl-img-6.compuserve.com [149.174.217.136]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08912 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by arl-img-6.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.16) id OAA22166; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:39:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:39:02 -0500 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: RE: GBlist: steel recycling embodied energy To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Cc: Gregory Thomas <72477.2131@compuserve.com>, "'Jennifer Corson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "jfstraube@golden.net" Message-ID: <199811111439_MC2-5FED-E144@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id OAA08913 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4891 >You said:" It is a prototypical technical nutrient." >_______________________________________________________________ >Greg: Further to your recent posting, how does the quote above relate to >the subject? I do not understand? Should I be having low embodied energy >recycled steel for breakfast? Jorg Ostrowski I am refering to Bill McDonough's classification of materials as technical or biological nutrients for the economy. But it might make a good ad campaign for Wheaties "The Technical Nutrient" Gregory Thomas 121 Rachel Carson Way Ithaca, NY 14850 g_thomas@compuserve.com 607-277-6240 607-277-6224 fax ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 14:58:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA11058 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:58:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10803; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:44:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:41:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10454 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:40:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from dub-img-5.compuserve.com (dub-img-5.compuserve.com [149.174.206.135]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10448 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:40:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dub-img-5.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.16) id OAA08127; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:39:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:39:05 -0500 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: RE: GBlist: steel recycling embodied energy To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Cc: Gregory Thomas <72477.2131@compuserve.com>, John Straube , "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "'Jennifer Corson'" Message-ID: <199811111439_MC2-5FED-E145@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id OAA10450 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4892 Message text written by "Jorg D. Ostrowski" >You said: "The steel companies say that about 65% of all new steel is made from scrap. But how much energy does it require to recycle the steel? " __________________________________________________________________________ John: I would be very interested to know which steel company has significant recycled steel content since we have not found any fabricators of metal roofing that: 1) knows anything about recycled content 2) uses steel with recycled steel . Have you or anyone ever tried to get embodied energy numbers from steel manufacturers? Jorg Ostrowski< Contact the Steel Recycling Institute Greg Crawford is a good contact there. GLCrawfSRI@aol.com Gregory Thomas 121 Rachel Carson Way Ithaca, NY 14850 g_thomas@compuserve.com 607-277-6240 607-277-6224 fax ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 15:05:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA11187 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:05:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11413; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:51:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:48:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA11008 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:48:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.america.net (smtp.america.net [199.170.121.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA11004 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:48:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from King ([204.252.122.97]) by smtp.america.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA02122 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:58:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from Spooler by King Kawaba (Mercury/32 v2.11); 11 Nov 98 15:01:27 -0500 Received: from spooler by newcomb-boyd.com (Mercury/32 v2.10); 11 Nov 98 15:01:19 -0500 From: "Richard M. Jones" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:01:09 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Embodied energy X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Message-ID: <178C4160888@newcomb-boyd.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4893 Since we are on the subject, I was curious if anyone knew the embodied energy in a PV system or panel. Specifically, what is the payback energy of it How much electricy would it need to produce to equal the amount of electricity a power plant would create with the embodied energy. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 16:21:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA12718 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:21:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA16038; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:03:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA15599 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:03:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from kalessin.southern.co.nz (kalessin.southern.co.nz [202.37.188.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA15594 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 16:03:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (mail@localhost) by kalessin.southern.co.nz (8.8.5/8.6.6.Beta6) id KAA15697 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:15:21 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from ppp043.southern.co.nz(202.37.189.43) by kalessin.southern.co.nz via smap (V2.0) id xma015660; Thu, 12 Nov 98 10:14:52 +1300 X-Sender: bywateri@southern.co.nz Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:17:11 +1200 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: bywateri@convertech.co.nz (Ian Bywater) Subject: GBlist: Wood as a Fuel Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4894 Dear List Don't dismiss wood as a fuel. We have done some initial work with our New Zealand Forest Research on the characteristics of a clean biomass fuel derived from steam pretreatment of Eucalyptus Nitens. The same steam process can be used for nearly any type of waste or harvested woody biomass. The chemical byproducts from processing are expected to support the clean fuel production cost. Ian Bywater, B.Sc.(Eng), C.Eng, MIEE, MIPENZ General Manager Convertech Ltd P O Box 13-776 Christchurch New Zealand "Convertech - The gateway to the new carbohydrate economy" Phone:+64-33-79-33-01 Fax: +64-33-79-33-03 email: bywateri@convertech.co.nz web sites: http://www.southpower.co.nz/conver.htm http://www.caddet-re.org/html/198art1.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 17:17:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14087 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:17:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19796; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:00:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA19356 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:00:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.cityweb.de (mail2.cityweb.de [193.189.224.210]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19352 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:00:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cityweb.de (ess8-m103-207.pool.cww.de [195.71.103.207]) by mail2.cityweb.de (8.9.1/8.9.1/powered by Telemedia) with ESMTP id XAA03292; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:12:30 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <364A0453.12E2033@cityweb.de> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:40:38 +0100 From: Vernon LeCount Reply-To: vernonlecount@cityweb.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Peter F. Alspach" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: wood/bamboo over radiant heat floors References: <003901be0d18$fee5c5c0$79f1b4d1@h5n5y7> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4895 Peter F. Alspach wrote: > A friend of mine had a radiant floor heating system with wood T&G floors and > had absolutely no problems. Peter, I'd like to know more: Was that a "floating" T&G hardwood floor or was it fastened to a plywood subfloor? Was it solid wood (i.e. not a laminate) wood plank? If it was a floating floor did he glue the T&G on the sides and ends? Did he use a foam underlayment? Evidently the Swedes have been using floating solid hardwood floors on some kind of foam mat directly on concrete slabs for awhile. In the USA and England, Junckers makes a floating wood floor for slabs that uses metal clips to hold together the planking (no glue and no nails). The Boen Floating Floors for slabs just use a glue in the groove and also go directly on the concrete, but I think the Boen floor is a laminate product. Here in this part of Europe most of the floors are floaters over concrete, but they are pressurized composites, with a thin laminate of wood for the top surface. Vernon LeCount Essen, Germany ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 18:19:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA15153 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA23999; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:06:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:02:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA23657 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:02:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA23628 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:01:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from galaga.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@galaga.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.95]) by donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id SAA23289; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:13:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by galaga.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with SMTP id SAA05281; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:13:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:13:40 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@galaga.rs.itd.umich.edu To: "Richard M. Jones" cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Embodied energy of photovoltaics In-Reply-To: <178C4160888@newcomb-boyd.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4896 Richard-- I forwarded your inquiry to Geoff Lewis here at the NPPC, who published a report exacly on this issue last October. The report is available for free from the National Pollution Prevention Center at http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub/research/pv.pdf (or, if that doesn't work, at http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub/research/pubs.html, under Photovoltaics) Cheers, Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greening-of-Dana homepage http://www.snre.umich.edu/greendana/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Reppe e-mail: reppe@umich.edu National Pollution Prevention Center phone : 734-936-2535 University of Michigan fax : 734-647-5841 430 E. University Ann Arbor, MI http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub 48109-1115 U.S.A. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reppe -------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Richard M. Jones wrote: > Since we are on the subject, I was curious if anyone knew the > embodied energy in a PV system or panel. Specifically, what is the > payback energy of it How much electricy would it need to produce to > equal the amount of electricity a power plant would create with the > embodied energy. > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 18:40:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA16043 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:40:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA24980; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:27:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:23:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24676 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:23:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from foo.icanect.net (foo.icanect.net [208.202.14.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24670 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:23:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from icanect.net (84.p1.Ascend17.MIA.Icanect.Net [206.142.173.212]) by foo.icanect.net (8.8.8/ICA3.2) with ESMTP id SAA10526; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:35:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <364A2097.526BD0EA@icanect.net> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 18:41:11 -0500 From: Kelly Carpenter X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen CC: mcshea1@gte.net, greenbuilding@crest.org, fdi@nettally.com, lpeterso@famu.edu, jminter@nettally.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Traditional Neighborhoods in Florida References: <36487BBB.4A94@gte.net> <3649AD57.D35C88EF@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4897 I cannot help but comment on the fact that Seaside is a community for the wealthy. So while it maybe green and it may be sustainable (although I see absolutely no evidence of that), it is certainly not affordable and not intended to be affordable. Most folks will never get to visit Seaside or live in a place like it. The challenge is to make green and sustainable affordable.........(Celebration isn't affordable either.........) Kelly Carpenter John Salmen wrote: > I think the motivating interest will come at the planning level. While there > are general environmental concepts that need inclusion each area needs to > develop a set of regional criteria that address both localized environmental > concerns and conditions. Interest groups such as the one you represent are > probably the best vehicle for development and promotion of criteria to be > included either in specific projects or as part of a community planning > process. > > I think because there is no common thread to what constitutes good > environmental planning at this point the process needs to begin regionally > with a localized needs assessment. This could identify areas of > environmental weakness that could be addressed in new developments as well > as the environmental impact of projects on local environment. Perhaps the > key would be to begin with a demand from local interest groups for > environmental impact analysis and that could work to establish a green > perspective for the development of any project. > > A community interest group or independent community planning board can > insert itself into the planning process and the resulting criteria could by > example influence how other such projects are managed. > The problems are that most developers and regional planning bodies resent > the inclusion of an interest group. The regions tend to see a development > project as an influx of cash, jobs, tax base and infrastructure so they are > loath to set criteria that would offset more basic benefits such as roads, > water/waste systems, etc. > > To answer your question more directly organizing a conference specifically > on environmental directions for planned communities could produce some > collaboration. > > John Salmen > TERRAIN E.D.S. > > Cindy Shea wrote: > > > Dear Listers, > > > > I attended a great conference this weekend in Seaside, FL, about New > > Urbanism and Sustainable Communities. Seaside was the first traditional > > neighborhood development in the country, built in the Florida panhandle > > in 1982. Robert Davis is the developer and Andres Duany and Elizabeth > > Plater Zyberk did the plan. There are now over 200 TNDs planned and > > under construction across the US, according to Rob Steuteville's survey > > for New Urban News. Florida leads the way with more than 40. The problem > > is that even though these developments foster community, mix residential > > and commercial space, build at higher densities, and are often > > inherently better environmentally because they have narrower roads, back > > alleys etc., the developers are not yet looking at the big environmental > > questions. Bioregional metabolisms, site orientation and landscaping, > > and green building strategies and materials are usually ignored. Tioga > > near Gainesville is one of the very few exceptions nationwide, and even > > it could be much better. > > > > Given the large #s of new buildings that will be erected in these > > communities over the next few years and the great reservoir of talent on > > this list, how do we combine the two? Not only are lots of TNDs planned > > in the southeast section of the state, the St. Joe Paper Company is > > sitting on one million acres and lots of cash and says publicly that it > > is committed to building TNDs on its property. Peter Rummel, who managed > > the Celebration project for Disney, is now Chairman of the Board. Other > > high level executives are also experienced in the smart growth/TND > > sector. > > > > If you have suggestions re how to penetrate the TND market with a green > > building perspective, I'd love to hear them. As contributing editor of > > the Florida Sustainable Communities Center, I can get the necessary > > ideas in front of the state's planners, government agencies, and > > increasingly the private sector development community. Efforts in > > Florida, as well as the ULI/EPA national efforts on Smart Growth seem a > > logical, and potentially huge, consumer of your knowledge, products, and > > services. > > > > Looking forward to closer collaboration, > > Cindy Pollock Shea > > Promoting Sustainable Development & > > Florida Sustainable Communities Center > > http://sustainable.state.fl.us > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 20:46:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA18217 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:46:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA01481; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:33:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:29:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA01125 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:29:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA01121 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:29:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-31-30.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.30]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA25370; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:41:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:46:14 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0DB4.529196E0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'A. Bambi Tran'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: TJIs and moisture problems Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 07:25:19 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4898 TJI's may be somewhat more sensitive to moisture than solid wood, the real question is WHY ARE YOU DESIGNING A FLOOR THAT LETS THEM GET WET!! Insulate and air seal the sides of the crawlspace wall and place poly ground cover on the ground and you will have the same conditions on the underside of the joists as on the top side, e.g., warm and dry. Alternatively, pour a slab on grade and enjoy the resulting durable, thermally massive, and healthy floor. On Wednesday, November 11, 1998 3:37 AM, A. Bambi Tran [SMTP:company_b@hotmail.com] wrote: > I have heard rumors that there are a lot of problems with using TJIs > (truss-joist I-beams) for floor joists above a crawl space because of > the TJIs' inability to resist moisture. Please, if anyone has any > experience with this material then share them. If you have used them in > the crawl space.. how? If you have decided not to use them, why not? > What then did you use for floor joists? I'm about to install them but ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 22:56:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20377 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:56:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA07705; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:38:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07376 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:38:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07371 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:38:33 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ560289; Wed, 11 Nov 98 20:48:42 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA128136; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:49:07 -0700 Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:49:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: John Salmen Cc: Norbert Senf , greenbuilding@crest.org, john@gulland.ca Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? In-Reply-To: <3649B533.F19077FC@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4899 John: You sure got me confused in the points below. 1) solar shingles would be part of this "Eco-Village" and power exported 2) masonry heaters in an "Eco-Village" would not be decoration but may constitute the primary back-up heating system (as in our house). Sorry I missed the point of your 2 paragraphs below. Jorg Ostrowski _______________________________________________________________________ You said:"There is another confusing aspect to this however and that is if for example solar energy was used (as in grid connected pv roofing) and surplus is generated this could reduce the material component required as insulating an environment becomes less of an issue, (this could have good IAQ benefit and might be a more desirable goal) While I personally think wood is preferable to fossil fuel I think its really a non-issue as the use of wood is primarily decorative not space heating and there is not good affordable technology to make it a realistic general option for most construction." ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 11 23:43:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA20886 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:43:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09524; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:29:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:26:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA09239 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:25:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA09235 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:25:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.80]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3905200 ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:44:08 -0800 Message-ID: <364A64AE.3DB31491@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 20:31:42 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: Norbert Senf , "greenbuilding@crest.org" , john@gulland.ca Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4900 Basic points are that cheap i.e. free energy (if such a thing can be concieved) can allow for improved air quality in a building by allowing for decent air changes without penalty. Cheap energy also reduces the insulating requirement. As to decorative uses its a factor of cost. A masonry heater is for most residences the entire heating budget. They are costly and as a backup the cost is prohibitive. I was making reference to sealed units that are typically installed as 'fireplaces' and seldom and inefficiently used. best John Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > John: You sure got me confused in the points below. > 1) solar shingles would be part of this "Eco-Village" and power exported > 2) masonry heaters in an "Eco-Village" would not be decoration but may > constitute the primary back-up heating system (as in our house). > Sorry I missed the point of your 2 paragraphs below. Jorg Ostrowski > _______________________________________________________________________ > You said:"There is another confusing aspect to this however and that is if > for example solar energy was used (as in grid connected pv roofing) and > surplus is generated this could reduce the material component required as > insulating an environment becomes less of an issue, (this could have good > IAQ benefit and might be a more desirable goal) > > While I personally think wood is preferable to fossil fuel I think its really > a non-issue as the use of wood is primarily decorative not space heating and > there is not good affordable technology to make it a realistic general option > for most construction." ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 12 06:40:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA24727 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 06:40:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA21520; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 06:26:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Nov 1998 06:23:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA21285 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 06:22:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA21281 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 06:22:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-29.netcom.ca [207.181.90.93]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA13421; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 06:34:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981112061356.009cc100@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 06:33:06 -0400 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19981111111606.00a4fe40@mha-net.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4901 At 08:19 PM 11/11/98 -0700, Jorg Ostrowski wrote: > >You said:"Washoe County >(Reno NV), for example, banned all woodburning about 5 years ago. Reno is >located on a flat plain surrounded by mountains. The pellet stove industry >argued that there should be an exemption for technologies that can prove >they emit at less than 1 g/hr, since a slightly detuned oil furnace would >emit at this rate and still be allowed. The county agreed......... >__________________________________________________________________________ >Norbert: Thank you Norbert for your scholarly and helpful comments. >Very interesting. Did the MHA assist with this lobby? No - we were unaware of it. The regulators from Washoe wrote a technical paper that I saw presented at a conference. They seemed to be bright, keen people in their early 30's who would be open to reasonable arguments. One problem that I see is specialization in the professions -- clean air regulators have their credentials in public health, so greenhouse-gas arguments often fall outside of their knowledge base. Hopefully we're all pulling in the same direction here. Have any masonry >stoves approached this performance? Yes. You can burn them fairly reliably in the 1 - 2 gram range in the field, and we've had burns under 1 gram in the lab. At this level, about 70% of the particulates are soot and fly ash, which are relatively harmless compared to PAH's. The problem is that a field test from an EPA-accredited lab runs about $6,000.00US and at this point there isn't much incentive to push the technology any further. The EPA regs (which came as a result of the Reagan-era EPA being sued by the Natural Resources Defense Council) did more to clean up woodburning overnight than the free marketplace had accomplished in the previous 10 years. Best.........Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 12 07:57:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA25310 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:57:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA23535; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:43:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:40:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA23239 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:39:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from j51.com (root@j51.com [209.94.121.51]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA23235 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:39:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (pma29.ucs.net [209.94.122.29]) by j51.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA28544; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 07:53:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: X-Sender: tritt@j51.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 04:36:46 -0500 To: Jonathan Harkness , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Tritt Subject: Re: GBlist: castle In-Reply-To: <36433F8B.95461C69@earthlink.net> References: <36431A73.7A5E@labs.tamu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4902 LAst Sunday i surprised my family (they are into Midieval stuff) with a trip to Wing's CASTLE, in Dutchess County NY... Thanks to Jonathan for letting me know of it (URL he supplied below)! WOW was that CASTLE impressive! Amazing structure, complete with moat/pool! Mr. Wing is soooooo talented, inventive, and he accomplished it with mostly re-cycled materials.... Mrs. Wing gave a friendly tour, and described a lot of the structure & antique contents. It was certainly worth the trip! Seems it is a popular sight! regards, Suellen At 01:27 PM 11/6/98 -0500, you wrote: >I do not know whether this local castle is what you saw, but it sure >sounds familiar. Wing's Castle is well known locally. Peter is reputed >to be quite a character and the castle is worth the visit. Hope this >helps! > >http://ddi.digital.net/~gunnery/wings/wings.htm >marvit wrote: > >> Years ago I saw on a tv program, a man who had worked for 25yrs(?) >> building a castle all by himself. I think he was using finds >> from scavenging, and the rest was a lot of cement and stone? >> >> I believe he allowed self tours with the option of giving donations. >> does this sound familiar to anyone? >> was trying to locate the castle. >> Thanks! >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >> Environmental Building News and Oikos >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >> ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 12 08:17:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA25604 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:17:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24318; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:04:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:00:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24066 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:00:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24061 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:00:38 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ881605; Thu, 12 Nov 98 06:11:00 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA57566; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 06:11:14 -0700 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 06:11:14 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Gregory Thomas Cc: Gregory Thomas <72477.2131@compuserve.com>, "'Jennifer Corson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "jfstraube@golden.net" Subject: RE: GBlist: steel recycling embodied energy In-Reply-To: <199811111439_MC2-5FED-E144@compuserve.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4903 Greg: Thanks for making your explanation more digestible. JDO _________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 11 Nov 1998, Gregory Thomas wrote: > >You said:" It is a prototypical technical nutrient." > >_______________________________________________________________ > >Greg: Further to your recent posting, how does the quote above relate to > >the subject? I do not understand? Should I be having low embodied energy > >recycled steel for breakfast? Jorg Ostrowski > > I am refering to Bill McDonough's classification of materials as technical > or biological nutrients for the economy. But it might make a good ad > campaign for Wheaties "The Technical Nutrient" > > Gregory Thomas ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 12 10:29:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27852 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:29:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01314; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:15:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:11:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00959 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:11:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00955 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:11:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DTU5U5D5; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:22:15 EST To: terrain@cow-net.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:23:13 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? Message-ID: <19981112.102555.9310.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <364A64AE.3DB31491@cow-net.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,10-14 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4904 Hi, I agree - masonry heaters as a backup would be very costly. My current client wanted to add a masory heater as a replacement for a proposed fireplace, despite radiant and passive solar. When we reviewed the energy calcs we not only determined that the system would be redundant but the added cost would be $15,000 to 25,000 for the heater and an additional $15,000 to build a masonry chimney to accomodate it - as opposed to designing the fireplace as a gas/gel with a metal flue at a total cost of $10,000. The masory heater was by BioFire and perhaps there are some less expensive units available. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 12 11:02:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28404 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 11:02:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03742; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:48:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:45:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03387 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:44:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03383 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 10:44:55 -0500 (EST) received: from acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.206) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ607731; Thu, 12 Nov 98 08:55:16 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA61964; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:56:13 -0700 Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:56:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca To: "Beverly A. Weiter" Cc: terrain@cow-net.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: masonry heaters In-Reply-To: <19981112.102555.9310.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4905 Beverly: Not sure where you price quotes came from (inexperienced subtrade, a quick glance at the drawings?), but for about $7,000 for materials, labour and transportation our masonry heater is used for: 1) space heating 2) hot water heating 3) cooking/baking 4) passive solar heating in the winter 5) passive cooling in the summer This is our only back-up heating system in a 10,000 cDD climate and we produce a total of 25% of the greenhouse gas emissions of any of our neighbours using natural gas in their plastic houses. In addition we have used them for structural support in other projects and it has potential for producing electricity. I can save the cost of buying a TV and save the time others waste.We have been involved in the use of about 10 others. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > > I agree - masonry heaters as a backup would be very costly. My current > client wanted to add a masory heater as a replacement for a proposed > fireplace, despite radiant and passive solar. When we reviewed the > energy calcs we not only determined that the system would be redundant > but the added cost would be $15,000 to 25,000 for the heater and an > additional $15,000 to build a masonry chimney to accomodate it - as > opposed to designing the fireplace as a gas/gel with a metal flue at a > total cost of $10,000. The masory heater was by BioFire and perhaps > there are some less expensive units available. > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > Boca Raton, FL > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 12 19:16:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08779 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 19:16:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA04335; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 19:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Nov 1998 18:58:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03968 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 18:58:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.cityweb.de (mail2.cityweb.de [193.189.224.210]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03962 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 18:58:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from cityweb.de (ess8-m103-69.pool.cww.de [195.71.103.69]) by mail2.cityweb.de (8.9.1/8.9.1/powered by Telemedia) with ESMTP id BAA25622 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:10:32 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <364B7931.6B33E0F7@cityweb.de> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 01:11:31 +0100 From: Vernon LeCount Reply-To: vernonlecount@cityweb.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: wood/bamboo over radiant heat floors References: <1.5.4.32.19981112162446.0075ef48@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> <364B767D.6195753C@cityweb.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4906 Vernon LeCount wrote: Sacie, I think that floating hardwood floors over radiant slabs have four advantages: 1. Most importantly: As the radiant slab heats and cools the floating floor will expand and contract without the floor developing cracks or cups. If a hardwood floor is nailed down to a plywood sub-floor, nailed to sleepers or glued directly to the slab there is the possibility that the wood with separate and crack. (Although Bruce Floors make a 3/8 inch solid wood plank that is steamed pressed during manufacturer so that it can be glued directly to the slab- see http://www.brucefloors.com/3-8inch.htm ) 2. It seems to me that a floating floor avoids the extra cost and labor of a plywood subfloor. (and maybe since there is less wood between the room and the radiant slab that possibly the room feels warmer faster-But this may be a bogus reason as the extra plywood is just more thermal mass) 3. I dislike the idea of using sleepers or plywood as that will lower the ceiling if one is building with standard 8 ft studs. 4. If a disaster happens and one must dig a hole into the concrete slab (broken radiant pipe), a floating floor is easier to remove than one that is glued or nailed down. Some sites that discuss floating solid wood floors over radiant slabs are: http://www.boen.com/ http://www.woodflooring.com/harris.html http://www.taunton.com/fh/features/materials/woodfloor/page8.htm http://www.carpeteria.com/junckers.htm http://www.askthebuilder.com/cgi-bin/column?114 http://www.brucefloors.com What I am curious about is whether any standard 3/4 inch T&G hardwood floor material can be made into a floating floor by proper gluing and the use of the foam mat. (The Boen people recommend their own glue.) Hope someone on the list has an opinion about using bamboo in a floating floor system. Vernon LeCount Essen, Germany Part of previous threads follow: > > David F. Lambertson wrote: > > > > Vernon, excellent questions and I would appreciate knowing what his reply is > > if he doesn't send it to the whole list. Thanks, Sacie Lambertson The > > advantage of a floating floor is? > > > >Vernon wrote previously: > > >Peter, I'd like to know more: > > >Was that a "floating" T&G hardwood floor or was it fastened to a plywood > > subfloor? > > > Was it solid wood (i.e. not a laminate) wood plank? If it was a floating > > >floor did he glue the T&G on the sides and ends? Did he use a foam > > underlayment? > > > > > >Evidently the Swedes have been using floating solid hardwood floors on some > > >kind of foam mat directly on concrete slabs for awhile. In the USA and > > >England, Junckers makes a floating wood floor for slabs that uses metal clips > > >to hold together the planking (no glue and no nails). The Boen Floating Floors > > >for slabs just use a glue in the groove and also go directly on the concrete, > > >but I think the Boen floor is a laminate product. Here in this part of Europe > > >most of the floors are floaters over concrete, but they are pressurized > > >composites, with a thin laminate of wood for the top surface. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 12 21:51:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA10669 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 21:51:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA10911; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 21:37:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 12 Nov 1998 21:33:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA10564 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 21:33:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA10554 for ; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 21:33:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust133.tnt2.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.31.133]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id UAA00785; Thu, 12 Nov 1998 20:45:29 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <364B9E27.7AE2@gte.net> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 21:49:11 -0500 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kelly Carpenter CC: John Salmen , greenbuilding@crest.org, fdi@nettally.com, lpeterso@famu.edu, jminter@nettally.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Traditional Neighborhoods in Florida References: <36487BBB.4A94@gte.net> <3649AD57.D35C88EF@cow-net.com> <364A2097.526BD0EA@icanect.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4907 Kelly, You're absolutely right about Seaside and Celebration being unaffordable. Fortunately, there are now a few developers who are trying to use the TND model and bring down the cost. I'm thinking of a development in NE Gainesville, FL and in Civano, Arizona. In Civano they even get going green re energy and water efficiency, landscaping, etc. If enough of us work on achieving the mix right, we may once again make neighborhoods worth living in. Cindy Pollock Shea Contributing Editor Florida Sustainable Communities Center http://sustainable.state.fl.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 13 08:18:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA16249 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:18:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA28526; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:04:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:00:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA28229 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:00:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA28225 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:00:11 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1ZRCa07908 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:11:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <49b2b60f.364c3014@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:11:48 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: affordable green developments and design standards Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4908 In a message dated 98-11-12 21:47:18 EST, mcshea1@gte.net writes: << You're absolutely right about Seaside and Celebration being unaffordable. Fortunately, there are now a few developers who are trying to use the TND model and bring down the cost. >> I am working now on a green development south of Charlottesville ---- I would like to keep things affordable and am trying to determine where to price the lots --- need to make enough to insure that all phases of the development get done --- and also am concerned that if prices are too low, people will buy the lots, hold them until the demand goes up and homes are built then THEY will flip them and make a good profit --- so how does one deal with that ?????? It does look like we will be at about 60% of current lot prices in the general area on another point -- how have people successfully done their design standards for such communities, so that the homes are not a total hodgepodge, yet they do NOT look like cookie cutters ???? Seaside refused me permission to even LOOK at their design standsrds (yes I realize they are copyrighted, and I certainly was NOT gonna copy them for 2-21 acre lots in Virginia) Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 13 09:49:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17646 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:49:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02549; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:35:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:32:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA02259 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:32:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA02255 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:32:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA28703; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:44:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA10305; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:44:19 -0500 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 09:44:19 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: GrenSheltr@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: affordable green developments and design standards In-Reply-To: <49b2b60f.364c3014@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4909 On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 GrenSheltr@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-11-12 21:47:18 EST, mcshea1@gte.net writes: > << You're absolutely right about Seaside and Celebration being > unaffordable. Fortunately, there are now a few developers who are trying > to use the TND model and bring down the cost. >> TND ??? > > I am working now on a green development south of Charlottesville ---- I would > like to keep things affordable and am trying to determine where to price the > lots --- need to make enough to insure that all phases of the development get > done --- and also am concerned that if prices are too low, people will buy the > lots, hold them until the demand goes up and homes are built then THEY will > flip them and make a good profit --- so how does one deal with that ?????? To prevent profit taking and inflationary housing costs, add covenents and restrictions to control and limit things through cost of living or other minimal annual percent increases. Since this problem can persist, after the housing is built, the building could be owned by a corporation of tenents, if a multi-family dwelling, plus others, if single family, with a no sale provision. To guarantee construction, require a building permit, financing, and other commitments, before closing on the purchase and sale agreements. > It does look like we will be at about 60% of current lot prices in the > general area > > on another point -- how have people successfully done their design standards > for such communities, so that the homes are not a total hodgepodge, yet they > do NOT look like cookie cutters ???? Set up an architectural and design review board to pass on building plans. Require re-sale through your own real estate office. Seaside refused me permission to even > LOOK at their design standsrds (yes I realize they are copyrighted, and I > certainly was NOT gonna copy them for 2-21 acre lots in Virginia) Linda > Lloyd > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 13 11:10:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA19235 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:10:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06676; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:52:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06322 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:52:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06318 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:52:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DTXSPXZQ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 11:04:54 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:52:00 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: wood/bamboo over radiant heat floors Message-ID: <19981113.110825.9366.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <1.5.4.32.19981112162446.0075ef48@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> <364B767D.6195753C@cityweb.de> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,7-8,11-15 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4910 Jorg, The price quotes came direct from the owner of the US franchise of BioFire. Be aware, these are large units designed to heat a large volume area. (the building is over 6,000 sq.ft and has very high ceilings and is on top of a mountain). I notice from the article in the magazine that your house is quite compact, so the one you used is probably quite a bit smaller. Heinz at BioFire tells me the stoves he sells are even more expensive in Europe, where they originate. These heaters have multiple levels and are almost like large sculptures in adobe-type material. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 13 12:18:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20746 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:18:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10719; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:05:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:01:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA10322 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:01:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10305 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:00:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from qbert.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@qbert.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.94]) by berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id MAA25895; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:12:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by qbert.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with SMTP id MAA02516; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:12:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:12:52 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@qbert.rs.itd.umich.edu To: John Straube cc: Greenbuilding List Subject: RE: GBlist: embodied energy in materials In-Reply-To: <01BE0E87.A535E8A0.jfstraube@golden.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4911 On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, John Straube wrote: > I am interested in the EE of reycled steel. Is it really that low? I > mean,even if the EE of recycled steel is half that of virgin, I am not sure > that is such an improvement. Also, since steel has been at least 50% > recycled for decades now, do your EE values not alredy valid for recycled > steel? > Thanks for any elightenment you might offer. John, good question. The numbers listed in our report are for 100% primary sheet steel. The energy consumption number for secondary sheet steel is about 18 MJ/kg. However, as seems to be the industry average, we used a mix of 90%primary/10%secoandary material for sheets. More massive parts, such as cast parts and beams are made from EAF-steel (electric arc furnace), which uses about 90%secondary/10%primary steel. Hope this helps. Thanks. Cheers, Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greening-of-Dana homepage http://www.snre.umich.edu/greendana/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Reppe e-mail: reppe@umich.edu National Pollution Prevention Center phone : 734-936-2535 University of Michigan fax : 734-647-5841 430 E. University Ann Arbor, MI http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub 48109-1115 U.S.A. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reppe -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 13 12:54:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21548 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:54:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13209; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:40:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:36:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12764 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from hil-img-6.compuserve.com (hil-img-6.compuserve.com [149.174.177.136]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12760 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:36:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-6.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.16) id MAA14421; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:48:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 12:47:43 -0500 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: RE: GBlist: embodied energy in materials To: Peter Reppe Cc: Gregory Thomas <72477.2131@compuserve.com>, John Straube , Greenbuilding List Message-ID: <199811131248_MC2-6033-8543@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA12761 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4912 Be careful about comparing mass to mass for embodied energy. You need to compare use to use, i.e. the mass of a steel stud wall is less than the mass of a wood stud wall, which is less than the mass of a concrete wall all serving the same purpose. Gregory Thomas 121 Rachel Carson Way Ithaca, NY 14850 g_thomas@compuserve.com 607-277-6240 607-277-6224 fax ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 13 13:17:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22109 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:17:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14735; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:03:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:00:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14363 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:00:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14346 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:00:03 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id JEGCa04821; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:11:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <267717f2.364c764f@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:11:27 EST To: rnn@rnn.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: affordable green developments and design standards Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4913 In a message dated 98-11-13 09:45:55 EST, rnn@rnn.com writes: << To prevent profit taking and inflationary housing costs, add covenents and restrictions to control and limit things through cost of living or other minimal annual percent increases. Since this problem can persist, after the housing is built, the building could be owned by a corporation of tenents, if a multi-family dwelling, plus others, if single family, with a no sale provision. To guarantee construction, require a building permit, financing, and other commitments, before closing on the purchase and sale agreements. >> a no sale provision would be totally impractical and actually reduce what you could sell the lots for to start with --- and requiring building permits before settling on lots would require the people to design a site specific house before they have seen that lot through a complete change of seasons -- cannot imagine desinging a home that is properly oriented to the site without that time lapse but thanks for your thoughts Linda ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 13 13:57:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22916 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:57:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16897; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:43:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:39:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA16552 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16541 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:39:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA09133; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:51:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA05842; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:51:19 -0500 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 13:51:19 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: GrenSheltr@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, "Ross M. Donald" Subject: Re: GBlist: affordable green developments and design standards In-Reply-To: <267717f2.364c764f@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4914 On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 GrenSheltr@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-11-13 09:45:55 EST, rnn@rnn.com writes: > > << To prevent profit taking and inflationary housing costs, add covenents and > restrictions to control and limit things through cost of living or other > minimal annual percent increases. Since this problem can persist, after > the housing is built, the building could be owned by a corporation of > tenents, if a multi-family dwelling, plus others, if single family, with a > no sale provision. > > To guarantee construction, require a building permit, financing, and other > commitments, before closing on the purchase and sale agreements. >> > > a no sale provision would be totally impractical Not so. It can and has been done, although the idea may depend on a stable mass of residents, as in a multi-family or coop/condo type of situation. > and actually reduce what you > could sell the lots for to start with This would depend on who or what entity proposes to be the "owner," and how they feel about speculation through unrestricted re-sale. The advatage is in buying in, later, at very reasonable levels. As with rent controlled apartments in the city, "key fees' between individuals cannot be regulated, and are a fair way to recover added value. > --- and requiring building permits > before settling on lots would require the people to design a site specific > house before they have seen that lot through a complete change of seasons -- This would not necesarily be true. They could wait, if they wanted to. The process would also protect the purchaser from buying unbuildable lots. > cannot imagine desinging a home that is properly oriented to the site without > that time lapse but thanks for your thoughts Linda Site configuration can be determined easily from sun charts. There may be other seasonal concerns, such as flooding, but we know how to orient buildings on a lot, at least, until the Earth wobbles completely out of kilter. Yours truly, Please, add to your mailing list, and send newsletters, press releases, announcements, and notices of events to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 For edited news you can RE-use, send "subscribe er-list" for the "Environmental Review" and/or "subscribe solar_utilities" for info on Solar Utilities, to: . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 13 15:36:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA25035 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22710; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:23:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:19:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA22283 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:19:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from pimout4-int.prodigy.net (pimout4-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.59.250]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22278 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:19:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from prodigy.net (QNCYB105-16.splitrock.net [209.156.196.167]) by pimout4-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA40320; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 15:24:35 -0500 Message-ID: <364C2EE7.C0DC6403@prodigy.net> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 08:06:47 -0500 From: Alan Page Reply-To: AFMO@prodigy.net Organization: A Forest Maintenance Org., LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen CC: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , Norbert Senf , "greenbuilding@crest.org" , john@gulland.ca Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? References: <364A64AE.3DB31491@cow-net.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0452C12322385BE4A45C539A" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4915 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0452C12322385BE4A45C539A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This discussion of wood is interesting because it frequently turns to PV installations as a replacement for our natural well distributed solar collectors, the forest. Trees are among other things chemical solar batteries. They charge up as they grow and the discharge when they are tranformed back to CO2 and water. That is what burning is. Regarding technologies that make wood convenient. The masonry heaters are very clean converters as long as they are run hot. Thus they require the least technology for the conversion of wood to heat. Most non catalytic wood stoves are poor technology because complete combustion (back to CO2 and H2O) is difficult to achieve. The reason we do not have any more effective systems for delivery of convenient energy from wood is that the moneyed interests donn't want us to have it. It does exist in the form of biogas generators, but the technology is not off the shelf. Alan Page John Salmen wrote: > > Basic points are that cheap i.e. free energy (if such a thing can be concieved) > can allow for improved air quality in a building by allowing for decent air > changes without penalty. Cheap energy also reduces the insulating requirement. > As to decorative uses its a factor of cost. A masonry heater is for most > residences the entire heating budget. They are costly and as a backup the cost is > prohibitive. I was making reference to sealed units that are typically installed > as 'fireplaces' and seldom and inefficiently used. > > best > John > > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > John: You sure got me confused in the points below. > > 1) solar shingles would be part of this "Eco-Village" and power exported > > 2) masonry heaters in an "Eco-Village" would not be decoration but may > > constitute the primary back-up heating system (as in our house). > > Sorry I missed the point of your 2 paragraphs below. Jorg Ostrowski > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > You said:"There is another confusing aspect to this however and that is if > > for example solar energy was used (as in grid connected pv roofing) and > > surplus is generated this could reduce the material component required as > > insulating an environment becomes less of an issue, (this could have good > > IAQ benefit and might be a more desirable goal) > > > > While I personally think wood is preferable to fossil fuel I think its really > > a non-issue as the use of wood is primarily decorative not space heating and > > there is not good affordable technology to make it a realistic general option > > for most construction." > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ --------------0452C12322385BE4A45C539A Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Page, Alan Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Alan Page n: Page;Alan org: A Forest Maintenance Organization email;internet: AFMO@prodigy.net title: Manager note: Web Page: http://pages.prodigy.net/afmo x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------0452C12322385BE4A45C539A-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 13 17:21:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA27310 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:21:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA28088; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:07:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:03:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA27761 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:03:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27756 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:03:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from uymfdlvk (dial-66-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.66]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA00265 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:19:14 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981113171607.007dc470@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 17:16:07 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re: masonary heaters and passive solar In-Reply-To: <199811130700.CAA19567@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4916 >Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 08:56:13 -0700 (MST) >From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" >Subject: GBlist: masonry heaters > >Beverly: Not sure where you price quotes came from (inexperienced >subtrade, a quick glance at the drawings?), but for about $7,000 >for materials, labour and transportation our masonry heater is used for: >1) space heating >2) hot water heating >3) cooking/baking >4) passive solar heating in the winter >5) passive cooling in the summer > >This is our only back-up heating system in a 10,000 cDD climate and we >produce a total of 25% of the greenhouse gas emissions of any of our >neighbours using natural gas in their plastic houses. > Jorg: I note something about which I have preached that you appear to either have ignored or solved, so I thought I would ask you about it. Some friends here in Vermont (9000 degree-day part of Vermont) had an experience with a sun-tempered/passive solar house with a massive, wood-fired masonry heater -- when they got up in the morning, they had to decide whether the sun would come out or not in order to decide to build a fire or not -- the house had a response to sunlight on the order of minutes, while the masonry stove had a many-hour response time. Human nature and the Vermont weather being what they are, they were right about 50% of the time -- leaving 1/4 of the time burning excess wood and the other 1/4 waiting for the masonry heater to come up to temperature. So I generally steer folks with direct gain houses away from masonry heaters towards faster-response backup heating systems. How do you deal with this disparate response time in your house? Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 13 18:22:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA28298 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA01694; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:08:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:04:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA01400 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA01395 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:03:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-14.netcom.ca [207.181.90.78]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA11458; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:15:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981113181021.00a35270@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:13:54 -0400 To: AFMO@prodigy.net From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <364C2EE7.C0DC6403@prodigy.net> References: <364A64AE.3DB31491@cow-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4917 At 08:06 AM 13/11/98 -0500, Alan Page wrote: (snip) Trees are among other things chemical solar >batteries. They charge up as they grow and the discharge when they are >tranformed back to CO2 and water. That is what burning is. Exactly. Bucky Fuller wrote that when the burning wood pops, that was a particularly sunny day. Leaves are amazingly efficient solar conversion devices. The break-even point for a maple leaf is 1% full sun. Best........Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 13 18:33:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA28599 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:33:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02454; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:20:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:16:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02157 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:16:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02153 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:16:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811132316.SAA02153@solstice.crest.org> Received: from dialin2079.cstone.net by mail.virginia.edu id ab02893; 13 Nov 98 18:28 EST X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:28:08 -0500 Subject: GBlist: Radiant heat From: Bart Nathan To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4918 Any comments on the electric resistance radiant heat system(s) (http://www.warmfloor.com/) vs. the circulating water systems? Reliability? Efficiency? Cost? Maintenance? Thanks, Bart Nathan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 13 18:53:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA28829 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:53:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03354; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:39:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:35:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03030 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03026 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:35:35 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id VQWYa04821; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:46:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <62fe2dbb.364cc4f1@aol.com> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 18:46:57 EST To: brn3a@virginia.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Radiant heat Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4919 In a message dated 98-11-13 18:30:09 EST, brn3a@virginia.edu writes: << Any comments on the electric resistance radiant heat system(s) (http://www.warmfloor.com/) vs. the circulating water systems? Reliability? Efficiency? Cost? Maintenance >> I installed the electric cables in the slabs in my 2 yr old 1300sq ft addition --- love it - probably a little more expensive to run than the hot water with propane furnace but - cheaper to install Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 13 20:25:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA00391 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:25:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA06913; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:11:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:08:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA06277 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:07:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06258 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-07-97.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.129.97]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA28883; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:19:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:24:34 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0F43.A0D08C40.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Jorg D. Ostrowski'" Cc: "'hvac@together.net'" , Alex Wilson , Bill Smith , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: RE: Mass and Building Time Constant Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:26:42 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4920 On Wednesday, November 11, 1998 9:29 AM, Jorg D. Ostrowski [SMTP:jdo@ucalgary.ca] wrote: > What is the mass of a conventional 1850 SF house? Does anyone have a > good number for furniture and appliances of a standard home? A good number is from 2 (low) to 5 (a little high) psf. I normally do a rough claculation of the partition walls (two layrs of drywall matter ..) and then add for applicances/furniture > The next exercise is to calculate the Building Time Constant (decay time) > that could be associated with thermal mass. This would indicate the usefulness > of thermal mass under duress (ie. power failure, no heat gain: how long > would it take for the temperature to drop from 70dF to 40dF). Any recent The thermal constant is a useful measure, but you have to be careful. If you define it as the time to drop from 70 to 40 F with 0 F outdoors, it has some meaning. In a strict engineering sense, the term Time Constant is used to precisely characterize the temporal response of any single-order system. A slab of concrete can be so cjharacerized independent of the temperature drop or difference in temp. A house is more complex with a mix of thin conductive mass (cermaic tiles), thick conductive mass (slab) and thick poorly conductive light mass (wood). The actual response of such a system is very irregular and the performance will vary depending on the conditions -- power outage, solar gains, short heating burst by fireplace, etc. While mass is good, how good is usually only quantifiable with the aid of hour-by-hour analysis of a specifc house and site. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 13 20:25:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA00394 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:25:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA06893; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:11:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:07:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA06239 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:07:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06235 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:07:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-07-97.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.129.97]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA28866; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:19:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:24:29 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE0F43.9D7887A0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Jorg D. Ostrowski'" Cc: "'Jennifer Corson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: steel recycling embodied energy Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 10:19:51 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4921 On Wednesday, November 11, 1998 7:40 AM, Jorg D. Ostrowski [SMTP:jdo@UCALGARY.CA] wrote: > John: I would be very interested to know which steel company has > significant recycled steel content since we have not found any fabricators Pretty much every major steel producer does use some recycled content. The modern process of steel making requires recycked steel input or it will not work. I dont know the minimum percentage though. Many small producers have been throwing up what they call mini-mills (mini becuase they cost only 100 to 260M dollars) based on the electric hearth process. These specialty mills are quite flexible and use pretty much 100% recycled content -- no raw iron ore enters the plant property. So, I do beleive the Steel Recycling Institute (a pure marketing body of the big steel companies) that around 65% of steel weight is recylced. I just dont know the environmental inplications of this, esp re: embodied energy, chemicals, etc. > upon further investigation this has not been confirmed. Perhaps for steel > in car bodies, well casings, pipelines, etc., but hopefully you are right THis is a very good question I had not considered. Maybe building steel is mostly new! I dont really think so becuase building steel, esp rebar, is of a very low grade compared to either pipelines (very high) and cars (high) and so there may be some benefit to using higher virgin content. I just dont know. The real point behind my original question was to question the common mantra of " I used steel cause its green cause its recyclable". Who cares about recyclability if it takes less energy to make a brick from just the clay or to use wood (not today, but when it becomes sustainably managed). ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 13 23:59:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA02566 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:59:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14031; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:45:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:40:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA13814 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:40:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from seahorse.epud.net (root@seahorse.epud.net [205.240.25.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA13810 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:40:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([209.102.14.228]) by seahorse.epud.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA12342 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:51:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199811140451.UAA12342@seahorse.epud.net> From: "Dean Still" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 20:59:18 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4922 Dear Alan Page, et al It's extremely pleasant to see wood being considered as stored solar energy. Most of the poor people of this world turn to wood as their major source of concentrated energy as we in the U.S. did not all that long ago. Perhaps wood could be more useful here in the developed countries one day. The major problem, as you point out, is the possible pollution associated with wood use. Use at the rate of growth should be relatively easy to figure, maybe sustainable use will one day be the law? I just wanted to point out that there is nothing magical about masonry stoves with regard to "complete combustion". "Complete combustion" is achieved by metering the fuel, preheating sufficient air, high combustion temperatures, mixing up the fuel, air, and flame. It is actually fairly easy to design stoves that achieve nearly complete combustion. You can build them in a day out of inexpensive materials like 55 gallon drums. Adding a catalytic converter then helps to clean up emmissions even more. Wood can also be "gasified", made into smoke and then combusted. This can be a pretty clean process, as well. The great thing about the masonry heater is not that it necessarilly achieves cleaner combustion but that the heat is retained in the mass. After the burn period the chimney is closed, greatly reducing the increased air exchange that can happen with stoves that do not receive air for combustion directly into the combustion chamber. It's this reduced air exchange that made masonry stoves so great in already leaky buildings. Heat exchangers can be air to mass, air to air or air to water. All can be designed to lower exit temperatures as efficiently as a masonry stove. Masonry stoves are great but there are many other options, some of which are cheaper and easier to build. You can build stoves that are very efficient and inexpensive. Dean Still Aprovecho Research Center ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 14 00:53:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA03106 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 00:53:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15449; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 00:39:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Nov 1998 00:36:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA15234 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 00:36:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com (mail.planeta.com [206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15230 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 00:36:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000044452 for ; Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:45:15 -0600 Date: Sat, 14 Nov 98 00:00:07 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re(2): GBlist: RE: termites To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5664315.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4923 builder@ivnet.net writes: >I don't want to seem to be one to beat to death an old termite here, but >I've got a project with lot of subterranean termites that are munchin >away at this house. Which is owned by a slightly asthamtic EartFirst!er >who would prefer not to use lots of toxic stuff in the soil. >My thought is to >1. eliminate any framing to earth contact, >2. to treat the wood closest to the ground with a borate-based >termiticide, >3. and then I'm wondering if some kind of bait could be used to tempt >the bugs to bring the goodies back to poison the nest? Something like >the Terro ant stuff which was mentioned last spring? Put it on some >juicy bit of wood, half-buried in the dirt? >Is this just a dumb idea? >My customer thinks that the low toxicity of the borates would be OK. >They are expensive, though. $100/gallon >Bruce Donelson I have been away from the list for a bit, so sorry for this late reply. I didn't see any other responses (though it may have been included in another post). I'd say that 1 and 2 are pretty good bets, and as for #3, we've recently heard about a new termite "bait" system that some of the commercial non-tox pest control folks in Austin are using. Supposedly gets good results. I don't know the name, but you might want to spend a few pennies and call Chem-Free Organic Pest Control in Austin (512-837-9681). I'd call them myself, but it's after hours and I have a full day tomorrow... It may be days before I remember. Post what you find out. Thanks. BC -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 14 06:18:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA05171 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 06:18:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA20754; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 06:04:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Nov 1998 06:00:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA20550 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 06:00:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA20546 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 06:00:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA17369 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 06:12:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 06:12:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy26.vineyard.net(206.166.158.84) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma017352; Sat Nov 14 06:12:14 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <49b2b60f.364c3014@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: affordable green developments and design standards Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4924 Linda Lloyd said: >I am working now on a green development south of Charlottesville ---- I would >like to keep things affordable and am trying to determine where to price the >lots --- need to make enough to insure that all phases of the development get >done --- and also am concerned that if prices are too low, people will buy the >lots, hold them until the demand goes up and homes are built then THEY will >flip them and make a good profit --- so how does one deal with that ?????? >It does look like we will be at about 60% of current lot prices in the >general area > >on another point -- how have people successfully done their design standards >for such communities, so that the homes are not a total hodgepodge, yet they >do NOT look like cookie cutters ???? Seaside refused me permission to even >LOOK at their design standsrds (yes I realize they are copyrighted, and I >certainly was NOT gonna copy them for 2-21 acre lots in Virginia) Linda >Lloyd Hi Linda - One of the reasons why the Cohousing approach is becoming more and more successful in this country is that it addresses precisely the questions you ask in a manner that is co-operative rather than regulatory. Attempting to control peoples' baser tendencies and profit desires, and do it in a way that allows freedom and dignity, is a complex and maybe futile undertaking. Cohousing takes a different approach: establish some basic principles, gather the people who will live in the place, facilitate the creation of a group with similar social and ecological goals, and work with this group to create a development that answers the questions posed above. In the right circumstances and with good facilitation, it turns out that people are good at balancing individual freedoms and social goals when they are making these decisions for themselves and others, rather than having them made for them. Sounds hard, doesn't it? It is, but it works. An added benefit is that there are many successful models that people are more than willing to share. You might try asking your questions to the Cohousing discussion group at cohousing-L@cohousing.org. Good luck - John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 14 09:25:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06740 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:25:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24438; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:11:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:07:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24184 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:07:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24179 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:07:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on4-33.netcom.ca [207.181.90.225]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04798; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:18:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981114081448.00926510@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:17:14 -0400 To: Andy Shapiro From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: masonary heaters and passive solar Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981113171607.007dc470@pop.together.net> References: <199811130700.CAA19567@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4925 At 05:16 PM 13/11/98 -0500, Andy Shapiro wrote: Some friends >here in Vermont (9000 degree-day part of Vermont) had an experience with a >sun-tempered/passive solar house with a massive, wood-fired masonry heater >-- when they got up in the morning, they had to decide whether the sun >would come out or not in order to decide to build a fire or not -- the >house had a response to sunlight on the order of minutes, while the masonry >stove had a many-hour response time. Human nature and the Vermont weather >being what they are, they were right about 50% of the time This is one of the main design issues with masonry heaters. A house with a lot of solar gain obviously needs to have thought about thermal storage to begin with, or it will to overheat anyway. Quite a number of early North American masonry heaters were built with thick walls. While they had tons (literally) of storage, they also had long time lags (as well as low surface temperatures). Nobody builds masonry heaters like that anymore (at least, I hope not), except perhaps in places like the Pacific Northwest with a mild climate and predictable cloudy periods. Most traditional heaters in Northern Europe were room heaters, and smaller than what we typically build in North America today, where we try to heat whole houses with them. You don't really want a longer heating cycle than 24 hours, which usually translates into an average wall thickness of 5 - 7" and a time lag of 2 - 3 hours. Design surface temp for the heaviest heaters is around 140 F. The question of how you control heat output has a very roundabout explanation: You have control over how large a load of fuel you burn and the firing cyle, so that determines the surface temperature of the heater. Because it is a radiant heating system (similar to a hydronic floor), it raises the Mean Radiant Temperature (MRT) of the room, which is just the average surface temperature. As you raise MRT, air temperature assumes less importance and you are comfortable over a wider (air) temperature range. I've been in a house under construction with no doors or windows with a hydronic slab turned on and felt perfectly comfortable at 45 degrees Fahrenheit (air temp). We experienced the reverse effect (radiant cooling) in our own house before we got the 4" of foam onto the outside of the 6" block walls. The first winter, until we got a temporary masonry heater built, it was impossible to get comfortable no matter how high the air temperature was. Your body produces about 100 watts at rest. So, there is no need to actually add heat your body - you just need to keep it from losing heat. Depending on how you are dressed (or not), you can be losing 70% of your heat by radiation, with the most significant parameter governing this loss being the surface temperature that your body "sees" in its surroundings (provided that there is no wind). With cool walls, you really have to amp up air temperature, say to around 72 - 75 F, to feel comfortable. The comfort band becomes very narrow, hence the need for precise thermostatic control. Unfortunately, this is the norm experience for most northern North Americans, who have spent their lives in older houses with forced air furnaces, and there is a tendency to over spend on very elaborate heating systems for low energy houses, based on that experience. A large glass area lowers the MRT of a room at night. This means that using low-e windows is very important with a radiant system - more for "perceived" surface temperature than for R-value (although that is important). I once experienced a radiant system in a room with a lot of glass where opening and closing interior insulating shutters made an instantaneous, large, difference in comfort level, even though there was no change in air temperature. Best.......Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 14 09:46:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06863 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:46:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25178; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:32:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:28:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24827 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:28:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24823; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:28:36 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ017981; Sat, 14 Nov 98 07:39:03 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40650; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:39:50 -0700 Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:39:50 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Straube Cc: Bryan Fofonoff , fofonoff@telusplanet.net, "'hvac@together.net'" , Alex Wilson , Bill Smith , Strawbale Listserver , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Mass and Building Time Constant In-Reply-To: <01BE0F43.A0D08C40.jfstraube@golden.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4926 John: Thank you for your comments on the above. Re: your comments: "A good number is from 2 (low) to 5 (a little high) psf. I normally do a rough claculation of the partition walls (two layrs of drywall matter..) and then add for applicances/furniture" The 2-5 PSF refers to furniture only? Why use 2 layers of drywall when most are single? We did use double drywall on a show home in 1981 but not since. Great for student dormitories. With your comment of below, the aim would be to see how long a house would take to cool down (how much "grace period") before it would sustain damage (ie. pipes freezing) for a plumber or electrician to arrive under dire (worst case scenario) situation (ie. remote location). The total effect of mass could be critical at that time. I have done this calculation before for a project where interior walls were rammed earth and the exterior walls were strawbale, but I would like to do these calculations in a more rigorous manner. I would like to assume no internal (heat gain) or external (solar) thermal input to define the worst case scenario at an outside design temperature of -24dF. A graph allowing indoor temperature choices (ie. 70dF to 40dF, or others) would be of interest. ARE THERE ANY GOOD ARTICLES ON BUILDING TIME CONSTANT? _______________________________________________________________________ "The thermal constant is a useful measure, but you have to be careful.If you define it as the time to drop from 70 to 40 F with 0 F outdoors, it has some meaning. In a strict engineering sense, the term Time Constant is used to precisely characterize the temporal response of any single-order system. A slab of concrete can be so cjharacerized independent of the temperature drop or difference in temp. A house is more complex with a mix of thin conductive mass (cermaic tiles), thick conductive mass (slab) and thick poorly conductive light mass (wood). The actual response of such a system is very irregular and the performance will vary depending on the conditions -- power outage, solar gains, short heating burst by fireplace, etc. While mass is good, how good is usually only quantifiable with the aid of hour-by-hour analysis of a specifc house and site. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 14 12:06:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08162 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:06:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01034; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:51:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:47:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25493 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25489 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 09:38:58 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ529335; Sat, 14 Nov 98 07:49:03 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA30900; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:50:01 -0700 Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:50:00 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: John Straube Cc: "'Jennifer Corson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: steel recycling embodied energy In-Reply-To: <01BE0F43.9D7887A0.jfstraube@golden.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4927 You said: THis is a very good question I had not considered. Maybe building steel is mostly new! I dont really think so becuase building steel, esp rebar, is of a very low grade compared to either pipelines (very high) and cars (high) and so there may be some benefit to using higher virgin content. I just dont know." __________________________________________________________________________ I know that re-bars are definitely made from recylced car bodies, but does steel roofing or siding have recylcled content? That is what I have never been able to get. That may make or break a decision on metal roofing vs concrete tile (or other substitutes) if durability, dail protection, rain water harvesting are criteria. This would also apply to siding if solar gain/storage, air tightness, embodied energy, were criteria. JDO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 14 12:06:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08168 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:06:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01136; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:48:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00398 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:48:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00390 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:48:02 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ777540; Sat, 14 Nov 98 08:07:03 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24278; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:07:40 -0700 Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:07:40 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: GrenSheltr@aol.com Cc: brn3a@virginia.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Radiant heat In-Reply-To: <62fe2dbb.364cc4f1@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4928 You said:"I installed the electric cables in the slabs in my 2 yr old 1300sq ft addition --- love it - probably a little more expensive to run than the hot water with propane furnace but - cheaper to install" _________________________________________________________________________ Linda: As much as I like radisant floor systems, have you ever done EMF measurements? I would like to know what your readings may be. JO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 14 12:06:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08173 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:06:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01175; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:52:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:48:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00416 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00392; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:48:03 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ610844; Sat, 14 Nov 98 07:59:05 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26610; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:59:44 -0700 Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:59:44 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: retrofitting info In-Reply-To: <01BE0F43.9D7887A0.jfstraube@golden.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4929 Would anyone know which paper, article, magazine, trade association or housing center may be able to help define the following: 1) what % of all residential construction is renovations/retrofits etc, (80%?) 2) how much money is spent in Canada or the US on retrofitting? 3) what % reduction is possible by home-owners in retrofitting (20%?) 4) what the total number of existing housing units are in 1998 (or 1997?) Any guidance would be appreciated. Thank you for considering my request.JO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 14 12:17:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08225 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:17:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01894; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:02:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:59:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01584 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:59:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01580 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:59:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.142]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4967700 ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:04:21 -0800 Message-ID: <364DA75A.DD081098@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:52:58 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: John Straube , "'Jennifer Corson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: steel recycling embodied energy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4930 The american iron and steel institute state that all north american steel contains a recycled content. They use the figure that a standard oxygen furnace (which would be the process for roofing steel, framing, appliance and car bodies, etc) uses 28% recycled steel. I imagine the quantity varies more or less as a result of availability and cost of recycled material at time of manuf. than a question of recipe. Steel recycling is probably (next to the rag market) one of the longest most established industries. Steel (iron) production owes its origin to a form of waste recovery as bronze resources declined the remaining ore was begun to be used for steel (considered an inferior product to bronze at the time and not a technological advance as we have come to view it). Roofing steel products owe their durability more to coatings than to any inherent properties. I think cementious products have better potential as their are inherent properties that increase their strength and durability over time (calcium and carbon dioxide reactions). Properties that can be said to be environmentally useful as they conversely become a co2 sink and benefit from the process rather than deteriorate. John Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > You said: > THis is a very good question I had not considered. Maybe building steel is > mostly new! I dont really think so becuase building steel, esp rebar, is > of a very low grade compared to either pipelines (very high) and cars > (high) and so there may be some benefit to using higher virgin content. I > just dont know." > __________________________________________________________________________ > I know that re-bars are definitely made from recylced car bodies, but does > steel roofing or siding have recylcled content? That is what I have never > been able to get. That may make or break a decision on metal roofing vs > concrete tile (or other substitutes) if durability, dail protection, rain > water harvesting are criteria. This would also apply to siding if > solar gain/storage, air tightness, embodied energy, were criteria. JDO > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 14 16:44:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA11040 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:44:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA01021; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:30:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:26:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00413 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:26:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (rcpublic1.nahbrc.org [207.49.88.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00405 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:26:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM by rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ea071270 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:34:54 -0500 From: "Peter Yost" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 14:42:11 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: radiant heat X-Info: NT Mail Server Message-Id: <22345426505277@NAHBRC.ORG> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4931 I worked on a project here at the Research Center a number of years ago where we investigated the performance of a solid state radiant heating panel which is a surface mounted system--pretty neat and the results were pretty impressive. The report is an Advanced Housing Technology Program one on the SSHC Enerjoy radiant heating panel and goes for about $15. E-mail our HOMEBASE SERVICES for more information: homebase@nahbrc.org Peter Yost pyost@nahbrc.org 301-249-4000 x542 http://www.nahbrc.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 14 16:44:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA11045 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:44:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA01053; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:30:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:26:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00475 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:26:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00469 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:26:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 26941 invoked from network); 14 Nov 1998 20:39:38 -0000 Received: from userc007.uk.uudial.com (HELO ) (193.149.94.227) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 14 Nov 1998 20:39:38 -0000 Message-ID: <364D404A.44AF@dial.pipex.com> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:33:14 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Reply-To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" CC: "'Jorg D. Ostrowski'" , "'Jennifer Corson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: steel recycling embodied energy References: <01BE0F43.9D7887A0.jfstraube@golden.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4932 John Straube wrote: > So, I do beleive the Steel Recycling Institute (a pure marketing body > of the big steel companies) that around 65% of steel weight is > recylced. Do you know how they _define_ recycled? - it has always been normal practice, for example, for a casting that didn't quite meet the tolerance criteria to be chucked back into the melt. Is this included in the 65%, or are we talking about 65% real recycling (i.e. of post-consumer waste)? On the main point, John, given a couple of weeks I'm sure I can get some fairly detailed stuff from one or two of the companies in Sheffield. But, in view of the differences in industry standards between Britain and North America, I'm not sure that would be much use to you. [Come to that, the embodied energy of steel is I think going to vary quite considerably according to the forge or factory it comes from.] Do you want me to try and go ahead anyway? Mark Bigland-Pritchard hyphen@dial.pipex.com Bristol, England ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 14 17:01:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA11237 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 17:01:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA01860; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:46:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:43:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA01632 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:43:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01621 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 16:43:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from my_machine.UIC.EDU (SLIPEXPRESS1-04.DIALIN.UIC.EDU [128.248.28.136]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA08867; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:37:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981114133809.006bcc5c@tigger.cc.uic.edu> X-Sender: miversen@tigger.cc.uic.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:38:09 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Michael Iversen Subject: Re: GBlist: Traditional Neighborhoods in Florida Cc: mcshea1@gte.net In-Reply-To: <36487BBB.4A94@gte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4933 Cindy, The only way to evaluate whether a product, building or community is 'green' or sustainable is to decide what criteria are relevant and to measure and quantify the performance accordingly. The concern with so many products/buildings/communities that market themselves as sustainable is that they have not been measured against any standard performance criteria. For instance, here in the Chicago area, a residential development called Prairie Crossing markets itself as a sustainable community, but this term is irrelevant without measuring it's performance against standard criteria. It may incorporate many of the principles of New Urbanism, but residents still are required to drive miles for the nearest loaf of bread and most of their jobs. The resultant suburban sprawl and pollution emissions probably outweigh any of it's benefits in energy efficiency, etc. There are several evaluation programs currently available that one may use to gauge sustainability. LEEDS / Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design: green building assessment BREEAM / Building Research Establishment Environmental Assessment Methodology: green building assessment BEES / Building for Environmental and Economic Sustainability: green building product assessment If one factors in the true costs of suburban sprawl, land use, transportation (lost time and causalities) and pollution emissions, it would probably be difficult to justify (on a environmental basis) building new blank-slate communities in metropolitan areas where existing infrastructure, vacant buildings and vacant lots may be found nearby. Michael Iversen At 12:45 PM 11/10/98 -0500, Cindy Pollock Shea wrote: >I attended a great conference this weekend in Seaside, FL, about New >Urbanism and Sustainable Communities. ... The problem >is that even though these developments foster community, mix residential >and commercial space, build at higher densities, and are often >inherently better environmentally because they have narrower roads, back >alleys etc., the developers are not yet looking at the big environmental >questions. Bioregional metabolisms, site orientation and landscaping, >and green building strategies and materials are usually ignored. > >If you have suggestions re how to penetrate the TND market with a green >building perspective, I'd love to hear them. Michael Iversen, AIA Adjunct Assistant Professor University of Illinois at Chicago School of Architecture (m/c 030) 3100 Art and Architecture Building, Room 3100 845 West Harrison Street Chicago, IL 60607-7024 Tel: 773.244.9227 Fax: 773.871.0121 E-mail: MIversen@uic.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 14 21:44:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA13456 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:44:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA10907; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:29:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:25:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA10642 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:25:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from seahorse.epud.net (root@seahorse.epud.net [205.240.25.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA10638 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:25:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dialport14.epud.net [209.102.14.14]) by seahorse.epud.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA19201 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 18:37:08 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199811150237.SAA19201@seahorse.epud.net> From: "Dean Still" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: masonary heaters and passive solar Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 18:45:19 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4934 Dear Norbert Senf, I really appreciate your well written and thoughtful responses. You relate how great it feels to have radiant heat. Imagine what happens in a "normal" house that warms you with heated air. The heated air warms the low mass interior walls protected by insulation from the exterior cold. Since the walls are low mass, they warm very quickly and keep occupants cosy. No bothersome lag time heating heavy floors or mass surrounding a fire. Doesn't get as hot as a stove but quickly walls are at the comfotable air temperature. By the way, our experience with cold, heavy mass walls is similiar. Our cob house walls, low R and high mass, like to stay at the average external temperature. Makes for bundled up living in a cold climate. Heating air, in a modern tight building has a few advantages, I think. Warm regards, Dean Still ---------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 14 22:08:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA13603 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 22:08:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA11776; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:50:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA11536 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:50:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11532 for ; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 21:50:07 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1EUGa19214; Sat, 14 Nov 1998 22:02:32 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <74f7d3c8.364e4448@aol.com> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 22:02:32 EST To: GrenSheltr@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: affordable green developments and design standards Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4935 Linda, I am currently working on my first development project. Going in, I also thought I had lots that would come in way under the cost of the local market. Not being quite as altruistic as you any more, my goal was to do "green development", price the lots at market value, make a profit and be able to do bigger and better green developments with the profits. I've already tried saving the world in the past with numerous conflicting agendas at once and gotten lost in the confusion of my own creation, so I wasn't trying to add affordability and all the rest of the issues you are trying to address. Just simple nice design and small green steps in the right direction. My inexperience as a developer led me to underestimate the lead times, costs and hassle of the regulatory process several fold. My own enthusiasm led me to underestimate how hard it would be to sell lots, to discount the down sides of my project and to overestimate the appeal of the green marketing and development features in a competetive market. My advise would be to make sure you are far enough into the project to make sure you know your final costs and that you are making ends meet before you sell the lots below market value. If, when you are all done, you have the luxury of the choices you seem concerned about, you will be extroardinarily fortunate. In the mean time I'd be more concerned with getting the permits in place and the roads and infrastucture installed before you run out of cash. Though most people thinks builders and developers are rolling in cash, it tends to be borrowed money. There are a lot more bankrupt developers than truly wealthy ones. It ain't easy making this stuff work. If it were there would be lots more greedy folks out there doing it. On a final note, your dreams and ideals sound so worthy, I would consider a worthy goal the possibility of making a profit yourself as the developer, so that you can afford to do this again if you are successful. Good luck with your project, Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 15 06:25:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA16594 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 06:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA22442; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 06:10:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Nov 1998 06:06:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA22206 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 06:06:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA22202 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 06:06:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-41.netcom.ca [207.181.90.105]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA16566; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 06:18:43 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981115055555.00a31210@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 06:17:30 -0400 To: "Dean Still" From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: masonary heaters and passive solar Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <199811150237.SAA19201@seahorse.epud.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4936 At 06:45 PM 14/11/98 -0800, Dean Still wrote: (snip) No bothersome lag time heating heavy >floors or mass surrounding a fire. With the insulation on the outside of the 6" (hollow core) mass, our house has a time lag of about 12 hours. The downside is if we go away for more than a couple of days and let the house cool down. Then, it takes about 12 hours to get the walls back up to T-shirt weather inside. On the other hand, you can wake up on a -20F morning in the winter and have no cues as to what the temperature is outside, even though there is no thermostat and there is no fire on. For day to day living in a wood-heated house, we prefer the moderate amount of mass. \(snip) >Heating air, in a modern tight building has a few advantages, I think. > That's a controversial one. One view is that the main problem with using forced air is dust. Not the stuff you see, but the very fine dust that passes through ordinary filters. It causes that "dry throat" feeling when you wake up in the morning. Why use your breathing air as the heating medium when you don't have to?........Best..........Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 15 07:48:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA16926 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 07:48:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA24033; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 07:33:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Nov 1998 07:30:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA23801 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 07:30:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA23748 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 07:29:59 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ996136; Sun, 15 Nov 98 05:41:35 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA44396; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 05:42:29 -0700 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 05:42:29 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Peter Yost Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: radiant heat In-Reply-To: <22345426505277@NAHBRC.ORG> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4937 Peter: Are we talking about electric or hydronic, floor, wall or ceiling mounted? Some elaboration would be useful. Jorg Ostrowski _________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 14 Nov 1998, Peter Yost wrote: > > I worked on a project here at the Research Center a number of years > ago where we investigated the performance of a solid state radiant > heating panel which is a surface mounted system--pretty neat and the > results were pretty impressive. The report is an Advanced Housing > Technology Program one on the SSHC Enerjoy radiant heating panel and > goes for about $15. E-mail our HOMEBASE SERVICES for more > information: > > homebase@nahbrc.org > > > Peter Yost > pyost@nahbrc.org > 301-249-4000 x542 > http://www.nahbrc.org > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 15 08:37:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA17113 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:37:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25243; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:22:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:19:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24989 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:18:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24984 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:18:55 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ826231; Sun, 15 Nov 98 06:29:38 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA15862; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 06:30:10 -0700 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 06:30:10 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: John Salmen Cc: John Straube , "'Jennifer Corson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: building materials as CO2 sinks In-Reply-To: <364DA75A.DD081098@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4938 You said:"I think cementious products have better potential as their are inherent properties that increase their strength and durability over time (calcium and carbon dioxide reactions). Properties that can be said to be environmentally useful as they conversely become a co2 sink and benefit from the process rather than deteriorate." ____________________________________________________________________________ John: Thank you for your useful message as above. Are you saying that cementacious materials such as concrete tiles, concrete foundations and stucco help to reduce climatic warming while making these products stronger (durable)? Is this a significant CO2 sink compared to oceans and forests? Is the increase in structural strength significant? If so, this could be a significant criterion for sustainability? Do you have any references? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 15 08:44:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA17154 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:44:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25771; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:29:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:26:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA25352 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:25:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA25348 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:25:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from kbell ([207.205.238.239]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA15034; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:39:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811151339.IAA15034@camel14.mindspring.com> From: "Karlene" To: , , Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: affordable green developments and design standards Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:38:31 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4939 To both Linda and Fred. I would appreciate knowing more about your projects (both ups and downs) as I am considering the same sort of thing. There is a group near here ( Western NC ) who has done so - they give a 99-year renewable and transferable lease on the lots, and charge a "membership" fee. They are going way more "green" than most people want to - no elec at all - common kitchen, toilets, etc. - really low budget building, but they have some good experience, and are trying all kinds of buillding types. Anyhow, keep us informed. Thanks! Karlene Bell ---------- > > I am currently working on my first development project. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 15 09:02:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17243 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 09:02:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26796; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:48:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:44:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26573 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:44:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26569 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:44:28 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id 1AFa009168 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:56:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:56:55 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: affordable green developments and design standards Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4940 In a message dated 98-11-15 08:40:23 EST, bellstudio@mindspring.com writes: << There is a group near here ( Western NC ) who has done so - they give a 99-year renewable and transferable lease on the lots, and charge a "membership" fee. >> one of the biggest problems with the lease situation is that it is almost impossible to get any mortgages on those leases -- there is a community near here - Shermans Dale, PA called Greening Life that has been going for some years, but the lack of mortgage financing has caused many many problems for them Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 15 10:43:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17913 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:43:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00387; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:29:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:25:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00133 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:25:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00128 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:25:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA14573 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 09:37:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md18-03.ix.netcom.com(205.184.107.3) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma014566; Sun Nov 15 09:37:18 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981115103513.0072c210@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:35:15 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: affordable green developments and design standards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4941 RE: affordable green developments and design standards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is a document in progress that may be of some use on the topic. ASTM draft Residential Standard Guide on Green Building: ((requires free Adobe Acrobat reader: )) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Reality Check >> Also, bear in mind that "green building" has recently become a area of interest for home builder associations in a marketing sense -- beware of claims of green buildings being so, in the _absence_ of consensus standards. Development of consensus standards and rating systems lags due to opposition based on fear of _not_ being as "green" as the competition. Thus, it makes sense for some bigger players to keep the level of confusion as high as possible about what really constitutes an environmentally high performance building. We believe adopting the general guidance in the draft ASTM document will not add much to the cost of residential construction, but application research is incomplete. First-cost obsession is a real problem in production home building, but added costs can be "absorbed" into your mortgage particularly if a home meets or exceeds EPA Energy STAR, or a HERS 5-star rating and becomes eligible for an Energy Efficiency Mortgage. More of these "rated-mortgages" are becoming available (more slowly that we would like to see...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 15 10:51:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17955 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:51:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00780; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:37:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:33:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00562 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:33:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00558 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:33:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from uymfdlvk (dial-89-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.89]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA12519; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:50:23 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981115104811.007d6a00@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 10:48:11 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re:massive wood heaters and passive solar Cc: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@valley.net In-Reply-To: <199811150700.CAA18277@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4942 Norbert -- thank you for your reply to my question. You indicate that a "house with a >lot of solar gain obviously needs to have thought about thermal storage to >begin with, or it will to overheat anyway." My experience is that most passive houses have passive mass -- that is, the mass is charged with radiant solar energy where the sun shines on it, and where the mass is not in direct sun, it is heated to a much lesser extent by re-radiation from solar heated mass and convection. In this situation, it seems that radiant heat from the masonry stove would heat the house to an uncomfortable temperature before much energy were transferred to the passive mass. An active heat storage (such as a rock bin or room full of closed water containers or air floor charged by a fan moving warm air from the house) could take this extra heat (sun comes out after you build a fire in the morning in your masonry heater) and store it for later. But active heat stores are expensive. In fact, my own house has an active store, and even with a catalytic wood stove (Federal Air-tight Vermont Castings) which has the ability to slow down the heat output in an hour or so when the weather changes, I find I use the active store to keep the house comfortable. So it's unclear to me how passive mass usually found in passive solar homes solves this problem. Your discussion of the mechanism of radiant heating and comfort is good, but I am unclear as to how it bears directly on the discussion of rapidly changing solar conditions relative to slowly changing massive stove output. >From: Norbert Senf >Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: masonary heaters and passive solar > >At 05:16 PM 13/11/98 -0500, Andy Shapiro wrote: >Some friends >>here in Vermont (9000 degree-day part of Vermont) had an experience with a >>sun-tempered/passive solar house with a massive, wood-fired masonry heater >>-- when they got up in the morning, they had to decide whether the sun >>would come out or not in order to decide to build a fire or not -- the >>house had a response to sunlight on the order of minutes, while the masonry >>stove had a many-hour response time. Human nature and the Vermont weather >>being what they are, they were right about 50% of the time > >This is one of the main design issues with masonry heaters. A house with a >lot of solar gain obviously needs to have thought about thermal storage to >begin with, or it will to overheat anyway. > >Quite a number of early North American masonry heaters were built with >thick walls. While they had tons (literally) of storage, they also had long >time lags (as well as low surface temperatures). Nobody builds masonry >heaters like that anymore (at least, I hope not), except perhaps in places >like the Pacific Northwest with a mild climate and predictable cloudy >periods. Most traditional heaters in Northern Europe were room heaters, and >smaller than what we typically build in North America today, where we try >to heat whole houses with them. You don't really want a longer heating >cycle than 24 hours, which usually translates into an average wall >thickness of 5 - 7" and a time lag of 2 - 3 hours. Design surface temp for >the heaviest heaters is around 140 F. > > John Straube replied: >Bloody good question, one I too have grappled with. Although performance (from an >efficiency point of view) suffers somewhat, I offer you one possible solution that has >worked well in application. In this case the house is an R2000 home with only >moderate solar exposure with a working couple. They leave at 5-7 am and return 5 to 8 >pm. Sometimes wife stays home all day. >Take your best quality clean buring airtight stove and build a masonry enclosure >around. Provide about 8" clearance, and operable vents at the top and and fixed >openings at the bottom. The procedure is to burn as you need heat and open the vent >at the top if you need heat quicky (you just got home). If you do the first burn in the >morning to warm up it works too. The second burn, or contiuation of the first can be >stored in the mass by sealing the top vent. The temp in the 8" space climbs very >quickly to several hundred degrees (over 450 F) while the mass slowly radiates heat >hours later. This is great for keeping the house warm at night too. In both applications >the stove has been in the basement so I have had the benefit of good height difference >for the air flow and the slab provided additonal mass. >This is not very sophisticated, but it is possible (doodles on paper) to increase the >masonry enclosure area on the interior to collect and release more heat, use a fan to >distribute heat further and faster, and to burn very hot. There is no reason you can not >build the interior stove as a masonry stove and thereby increase burn temps into the >1000F range. But, the approach I used cost about $2000 and is adabptable to quite a >range of heat supply quanities and response times while using locally avalable masonry >know-how and off the shelf stoves, which every understands. You just have to explain >that the stove should be burnt in bursts of highest intensity. John - thank you for your reply. This scheme sounds very interesting -- This solves the problem of being able to get heat out fast if you need to, and to be able to at least slow down until later the output of heat if the sun comes out unexpectedly. I like the fact that no particular expertise is needed beyond masonry and that parts are basically off-the-shelf. Is this your house? When you say "moderate solar exposure" can you be more specific -- say sq.ft of south-facing glass and house heat loss rate? What's it like to live with? How much manual attention to dampers is required? How was the top of the masonry enclosure handled below the ceiling to keep the ceiling of the house (presumably wood framed) from getting too hot? It would seem that the details would be important here and for mechanisms to let hot air out and keep it in as needed -- a 400F temp difference would created enough pressure to bypass a lot of typical dampers. Was the bottom open around the woodstove? I would guess this system would not be too sensitive to height, as in the stove being located on the first floor as opposed to a basement. Did the $2000 include the stove, or just the masonry enclosure? and is that Canadian or US$ My catalytic stove routinely has post-catalyst temperatures > 1000F and up to 1400 or more with a hot burn, so is the masonry stove doing better somehow? Having the inside built as a masonry stove would seem to defeat the ability to obtain heat quickly. It's unclear how to decide if more surface area inside the outer enclosure would be needed. Maybe the extra surface would be needed more on a one-story than a two-story model... On a somewhat related point -- someone indicated that catalytic stoves are more efficient than non-catalytic EPA approved stoves. Can anyone shed light on this question? Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 15 11:40:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18285 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 11:40:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02407; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 11:25:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Nov 1998 11:22:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02152 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 11:22:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02148 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 11:22:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.134]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 5314200 ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:57:35 -0800 Message-ID: <364F0238.A5BFDD03@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:32:56 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: John Straube , "'Jennifer Corson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: building materials as CO2 sinks References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4943 Hi Jorg This is basic water/mineral interaction (cement hydration) the hydroxide of a cement is converted to a carbonate (byproduct is water). Basically its the process where cement becomes chemically stable (becomes rock). That this is useful environmentally (sure its part of the natural process by which co2 is locked) but does not in any order of magnitude (human cement usage) compare to forest and water bodies and probably has negligible relationship to co2 produced in cement manufacture as the process takes thousands of years (too little too late type of thing) but better than some things. I once came upon some research on liquid co2 injection into concrete as a hardening process perhaps John Straube has some information on this. In any event the comparison was to metal which loses strength as it oxidizes. Part of the information on co2 treatment of concrete was its use as a solvent and transport mechanism for metals into concrete (perhaps a better use of metal - putting it back into rock) As a criterion for sustainability I think what is crucial is our growing understanding of materials, this cannot help but aid in more minimal and appropriate use of material. John Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > You said:"I think cementious products have better potential as their are > inherent properties that increase their strength and durability over > time (calcium and carbon dioxide reactions). Properties that can be said > to be environmentally useful as they conversely become a co2 sink and benefit > from the process rather than deteriorate." > ____________________________________________________________________________ > John: Thank you for your useful message as above. Are you saying that > cementacious materials such as concrete tiles, concrete foundations and > stucco help to reduce climatic warming while making these products stronger > (durable)? Is this a significant CO2 sink compared to oceans and forests? > Is the increase in structural strength significant? If so, this could be > a significant criterion for sustainability? Do you have any references? > Jorg Ostrowski > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 15 12:47:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA18783 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:47:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04397; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:33:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:29:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04086 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04082 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:29:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA19849; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:42:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA28388; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:42:31 -0500 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:42:31 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Karlene Cc: FUnger@aol.com, GrenSheltr@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: affordable green developments and design standards In-Reply-To: <199811151339.IAA15034@camel14.mindspring.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4944 On Sun, 15 Nov 1998, Karlene wrote: > .... They are going way more "green" than most people want to > - no elec at all - .... Say more. Do you mean no outside grid supply? I can see how heating and cooling can be addressed, esp. in NC w/o electricity for controls, but lighting and applicances? Back to the woods is one thing, but... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 15 13:12:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA19550 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:12:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05436; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:58:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:54:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05149 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:54:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from buzz.slic.com (buzz.slic.com [206.25.233.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05145 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:54:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 5656 invoked by uid 0); 15 Nov 1998 18:07:28 -0000 Received: from clayton-tty3.slic.com (HELO default) (206.150.84.115) by buzz.slic.com with SMTP; 15 Nov 1998 18:07:28 -0000 Message-ID: <002e01be10c2$8f7baee0$735496ce@default> From: "Tim McCarthy, Architect" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:massive wood heaters and passive solar Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:05:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4945 hello all, I have been following this thread with great interest as I have just enclosed (finally) my slipform stone house that has 12-8" (the wall slopes inwards, vertically) of stone/conc. mass on the inside and outside of a 8-12" eps insulation. I am currantly building my masonry heater as a temp. heater (no veneer yet) to allow us to finish the interior. I have always worried abit about having too much mass so I will insert my questions in Andys last response....and I will insert other things that I am doing for general comment >My experience is that most passive houses have passive mass -- that is, the >mass is charged with radiant solar energy where the sun shines on it, and >where the mass is not in direct sun, it is heated to a much lesser extent >by re-radiation from solar heated mass and convection. In this situation, >it seems that radiant heat from the masonry stove would heat the house to >an uncomfortable temperature before much energy were transferred to the >passive mass. In this case that you speak of, is the masonry heater within radiant contact of this mass. I am hoping that the central location of my heater will avoid this problem mentioned above. Wouldnt my interior stone mass gain radiant heat from my heater. if it is within view? In otherwords so it doesnt have to be heated indirectly by convection. My heater is taking the place of the suns radiant heat? How far will radiant heat rays go? It seems with creative location of the heater, you could acutually start crossing the lines of passive/active solar? >An active heat storage (such as a rock bin or room full of >closed water containers or air floor charged by a fan moving warm air from >the house) could take this extra heat (sun comes out after you build a fire >in the morning in your masonry heater) and store it for later. But active >heat stores are expensive. In fact, my own house has an active store, and >even with a catalytic wood stove (Federal Air-tight Vermont Castings) which >has the ability to slow down the heat output in an hour or so when the >weather changes, I find I use the active store to keep the house >comfortable. So it's unclear to me how passive mass usually found in >passive solar homes solves this problem. I have around my window sills, about 4-6 inches of conc. to finish up to the bottom of the window sill, and I am planning to run some leftover wirsbo in this area and tie it to the allready installed wirsbo system. >Take your best quality clean buring airtight stove and build a masonry >enclosure >around. Provide about 8" clearance, and operable vents at the >top and and fixed >openings at the bottom. The procedure is to burn as you >need heat and open the vent >at the top if you need heat quicky (you just >got home). If you do the first burn in the >morning to warm up it works >too. The second burn, or contiuation of the first can be >stored in the >mass by sealing the top vent. The temp in the 8" space climbs very >>quickly to several hundred degrees (over 450 F) while the mass slowly >radiates heat >hours later. This is great for keeping the house warm at >night too. In both applications >the stove has been in the basement so I >have had the benefit of good height difference >for the air flow and the >slab provided additonal mass. > >>This is not very sophisticated, but it is possible (doodles on paper) to >increase the >masonry enclosure area on the interior to collect and release >more heat, use a fan to >distribute heat further and faster, and to burn >very hot. There is no reason you can not >build the interior stove as a >masonry stove and thereby increase burn temps into the >1000F range. But, >the approach I used cost about $2000 and is adabptable to quite a >range of >heat supply quanities and response times while using locally avalable >masonry >know-how and off the shelf stoves, which every understands. You >just have to explain >that the stove should be burnt in bursts of highest >intensity. yes this is interesting, I may try, when I veneer my heater, to put some ports in it that could be opened and closed to change from quick heat to slow heat....Im using a heater I bought second hand from a builder, it is a cross fire heater. I am going to slipform the veneer and try to keep it as thin as possible.... I am enjoying this discussion, anyone feel free to offer comments, I am shooting from the hip here! Tim McCarthy, Tim Mccarthy, Architect ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 15 13:28:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA19780 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:28:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06031; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:13:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:10:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05732 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:09:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05728 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:09:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA23224; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA17547; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:22:59 -0500 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:22:59 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Norbert Senf Cc: Dean Still , greenbuilding@crest.org, "Ross M. Donald" Subject: GBlist: masonary heaters and passive solar In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981115055555.00a31210@mha-net.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4946 On Sun, 15 Nov 1998, Norbert Senf wrote: > At 06:45 PM 14/11/98 -0800, Dean Still wrote: > >Heating air, in a modern tight building has a few advantages, I think. > > > That's a controversial one. One view is that the main problem with using > forced air is dust. Not the stuff you see, but the very fine dust that > passes through ordinary filters. It causes that "dry throat" feeling when > you wake up in the morning. Hi Norbert, I've lived both in very quiet (low/no air movement) hydronicly heated houses and also in rather turbulent forced air heated houses, and I'd conclude that "dry throat" is more a function of low Winter time humidity, perhaps exacerbated by fireplaces and wood stoves, and solved by pans of evaporating water to increase the interior humidity. ...and my housekeeping habits do not promote anything close to a dust free environment... > Why use your breathing air as the heating > medium when you don't have to?........Best..........Norbert There are at least two situations that have active air circulation of the interior breathing air, which I can think of, off the top. I used to manufacture flat plate air heating solar collectors for roofs and South facing walls. The inside air was brought into the collectors, heated to a usable minimum temperature, and then supplied back to the inside heated space. The whole subsystem was simple, direct, maintenance-free and cost effective. Also, in a very tight house, that is, one which is built to the new standard, don't we want an active air-to-air heat exchanger to bring in fresh air, while reclaiming the heat? -Ross > ---------------------------------------- > Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org > Masonry Stove Builders > RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb > Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 > ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > Please, add to your mailing list, and send newsletters, press releases, announcements, and notices of events to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 For edited news you can RE-use, send "subscribe er-list" for the "Environmental Review" and/or "subscribe solar_utilities" for info on Solar Utilities, to: . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 15 15:44:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA21007 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:44:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10505; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:29:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:25:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10235 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:25:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10231 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:25:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on6-19.netcom.ca [207.181.91.147]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24051; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:37:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981115145743.00a56f00@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:36:45 -0400 To: Renewable News Network From: Norbert Senf Subject: GBlist: Re: masonary heaters and passive solar Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19981115055555.00a31210@mha-net.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4947 At 01:22 PM 15/11/98 -0500, Ross M. Donald wrote: >(snip)I've lived both in very quiet (low/no air movement) hydronicly heated >houses and also in rather turbulent forced air heated houses, and I'd >conclude that "dry throat" is more a function of low Winter time humidity, >perhaps exacerbated by fireplaces and wood stoves, and solved by pans of >evaporating water to increase the interior humidity. > Hi Ross: A number of years ago I read a book by a German engineer, A. Eisenschink, who owns a company named San-Cal. He claims that "dry throat" was caused by fine dust from using forced air furnaces, not by dry air. He states that adding a humidifier solves the problem because the moist air settles the dust (he is vehemently opposed to humdifiers for health reasons). My understanding is that he is not talking about visible dust, which is large enough to settle out by gravity. He made the point that people with respiratory problems go to dry desert climates such as Arizona for the winter, because dry air is healthy. We've had a couple of anecdotal reports over the years from clients whose wintertime respiratory problems cleared up when they replaced forced air with radiant. I imagine a good test would be before/after if somebody with respiratory problems and a forced air furnace, experiencing "dry throat", adds a HEPA filter to the system. Best.....Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 15 16:02:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA21415 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 16:02:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11341; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:48:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:44:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA11036 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:44:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from seahorse.epud.net (root@seahorse.epud.net [205.240.25.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11032 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 15:44:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([209.102.14.42]) by seahorse.epud.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA23824 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 12:55:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199811152055.MAA23824@seahorse.epud.net> From: "Dean Still" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:massive wood heaters and passive solar Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 13:03:27 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4948 Dear Tim McCarthy, et al Like you I enjoy this thread, probably because I've been researching stoves at Aprovecho for a while now. So I am just going to "shoot from the hip" as you suggest, hoping that all the errors I make will be judged as wanderings towards knowledge... Six years ago, we tested a six inch stove pipe buried in a 8' long cob bench, and the temperature drop after that long run was only 100 degrees F. (800 to 700 degrees F.) The bench didn't get very warm, ecxept directly above the pipe, since cold seeped into it from contact with an uninsulated wall and floor. IMO you need a lot more surface area than just mass around a normal stove to get chimney exit temps. down to around 250F where you want them. A high mass stove is very convoluted inside. Our best wood fired camping stoves, with an insulated skirt around the pot, at the right distance, only get around 30% of the heat from the fire into the pot. Our best solar cooker, at temperatures around 400F gets about 20% into the pot. The heat exchanger above the combustion chamber, in a heating stove, needs to be big. Then last year we got three pyranometers, measures the amount of sunlight. When we put a black cement 12" by 12", two inch thick cement slab into the sunlight and measure the stored energy after four peak sunlit hours, about 100 btu's were stored in the slab. That's about 17%. Other same sized slabs, out of direct sunlight, did not store any appreciable amount of solar energy, i.e., the passive mass stayed at the temperature of the interior air. In our strawbale dormitory with 25% south facing glass there are about 250 square feet of floor area in the winter that receive direct sunshine. If each sf stores 100 btu's then we have stored 25,000 btu's by days end. Helps keep temperatures up for an hour if leaky, more if you live in a better house.The rest of the energy may be spread out in such a diffuse manner that even a normal house without added mass absorbs it without reflecting an appreciable temperature rise. IMO, it doesn't take a lot of mass to moderate temperatures. The water in a 55 gallon black drum, inside a solar house, rose 10 degrees in temperature after being exposed to the peak solar hours. The water inside another drum beside it, blocked from exposure to sunlight, rose 9 degrees. The interior air temperature rose 12 degrees during the test. Direct sunlight contacting the 6 square feet of drum surface area added 1 degree temperature rise in the 456 pounds of water at about 15% efficiency. It was the air temperature that resulted in the temperature rise in thermal mass, both direct and indirect.IMO, it isn't radiation that heats most mass it is a rise in interior temperature. As far as wood fired stoves go, IMO, it doesn't matter if you put the heat into mass or air or water, just so long as it doesn't shoot up the chimney first. Combustion temperatures will be higher than 1200F in a metal stove or masonry. That's the minimum for good combustion. As far as radiant heat goes, there's a lot more coming off of a 500 degreeF metal stove than there is off of a cooler masonry stove. In a good air to air stove you burn less as efficiently for longer.The best thing about masonry or water storage is that it encourages hot, big, intense fires that can smoke less. The downside is the lag time. But, in practice, any good stove is relatively easy to live with and again, IMO, air to air designs are much cheaper and Americans like the convenience of getting warm when they are cold. The warm air should heat up the mass of your interior and provide nighttime carry over if the house is well insulated with low air exchange. But massive stoves are great too. All types can be made well. Regards, Dean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 15 16:33:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA21848 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 16:33:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12587; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 16:19:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Nov 1998 16:15:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA12297 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 16:15:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA12293 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 16:15:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on8-59.netcom.ca [209.146.133.59]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02302; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 16:27:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981115154021.00a15410@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 16:26:10 -0400 To: Andy Shapiro From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:massive wood heaters and passive solar Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981115104811.007d6a00@pop.together.net> References: <199811150700.CAA18277@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4949 At 10:48 AM 15/11/98 -0500, Andy Shapiro wrote: (snip) >Your discussion of the mechanism of radiant heating and comfort is good, >but I am unclear as to how it bears directly on the discussion of rapidly >changing solar conditions relative to slowly changing massive stove output. this is the point in the discussion where I usually have to bow out of the technical arguments, and rely on what I've seen in practice in various situations. The only things in my experience that jives with your scenario are (mostly) houses with massive amounts of glass, or houses with no extra mass, or houses with out of phase masonry heaters (8 inch walls and thicker). Typical output from a masonry heater fired once a day with 60 lbs of wood is 2 - 3 kW. If you've got a lot of glass, I imagine the peak gain would be considerably higher than that, in other words, 2 kW shouldn't overwhelm your existing load-averaging strategy. I've been on the lookout for quite a while for simulation software that can model MRT - with the computer horsepower that is easily available today, a simulation would probably provide a more convincing demo than resorting to trading equations back and forth. We have a (currently inactive) page on this at http://mha-net.org/msb/html/gallery2.htm It seems that we've got two principles involved - energy efficiency (small heat load) and solar energy to satisfy the small heat load. It doesn't really make much sense to have the second without the first. Passive solar is one approach, requiring storage. Personally, I find cordwood to be an extremely elegant solar energy storage system. Turning it into clean, convenient, low output, heat is another matter. Whether it is cordwood or passive solar (or a combination), either one makes for interesting challenges. A masonry heater is definitely not the way to go if you have a house that needs instant heat, or heat that you can shut off instantly. A good combination is a heater to give you a base load, and a backup system to fill in the peaks - the backup system can be something cheap like baseboards, because the actual kWh consumption will be low. Best.......Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 15 21:32:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA25193 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 21:32:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25363; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 21:18:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Nov 1998 21:14:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA24926 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 21:13:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24920 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 21:13:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.76]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 5503500 ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 18:54:43 -0800 Message-ID: <364F8CD5.B5AEE4DE@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 18:24:21 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: building materials as CO2 sinks References: <364F0238.A5BFDD03@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4950 Gregory Thomas gave the following as part of a ref. http://www.sustainable-steel.com/ the section I looked at is a very interesting lca on conc versus steel in construction. If anyone has some time it would be worth a read and comments on both the content and on lca's in general. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 15 23:54:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA26279 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 23:54:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA01553; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 23:39:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 15 Nov 1998 23:35:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA01311 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 23:35:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA01307 for ; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 23:35:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip11.ivnet.net [206.101.73.171]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA25477; Sun, 15 Nov 1998 19:38:25 -0800 Message-ID: <364E3741.84F14694@ivnet.net> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 18:06:57 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen CC: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , John Straube , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: steel recycling embodied energy References: <364DA75A.DD081098@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4951 John Salmen wrote: Roofing steel products owe their durability more to coatings than to any inherent properties. Just to further complexify the issue, different roofing steels are alloyed differently. The steel used to make corrugated types of metal roofing will crack if bent hard enough to form a concealed fastener profile. Also, some of the metal roofing has sufficient zinc content to retard oxidation. But the coatings are the primary defense. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 07:11:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA28937 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 07:11:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA13541; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 06:56:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 06:51:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA13178 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 06:51:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA13170 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 06:51:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on3-34.netcom.ca [207.181.90.162]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA19798; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 07:03:14 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981116063200.00a1e100@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 07:02:01 -0400 To: "Dean Still" From: Norbert Senf Subject: GBlist: Re:massive wood heaters and passive solar Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <199811152055.MAA23824@seahorse.epud.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4952 First of all, Dean, let me applaud you for actually going out there with measuring instruments and checking this stuff out first hand. We need a lot more people doing that. It is easy and cheap, and it starts to give you an intuitive grasp of the physics. You wrote: (snip) As far as radiant heat >goes, there's a lot more coming off of a 500 degreeF metal stove than there >is off of a cooler masonry stove. That's true, to a point. The radiation from a surface is a function of the fourth power of absolute temperature (i.e., where 0 Centigrade = 273 Kelvin), so radiation increases very fast as surface temperature goes up. However, it is also a function of surface area, and a typical masonry heater has about 100 sq. ft. Mind you, if you get a metal stove glowing red hot, you can kick out a hell of a lot of heat - say 20 kW or more. That's great if you're heating a barn, but not too useful in an R-2000 house - in fact, if it was a big stove you'd have to keep it choked down all the time, turning it into a creosote machine. With a hydronic floor running at 80F, you need a large area, ie., the whole room. There's a benefit, however, of doing it at 80 degrees - the radiation is a longer wavelength, which is considered to be more comfortable, and there is way less air movement and stratification than with a hot metal stove - a big benefit in a leaky house, particularly a tall leaky house. A colleague recently built an uninsulated rammed earth barn on the West Coast with a radiant floor and 20 ft. ceilings. He found about 0.5 degree difference in air temperature between ceiling and just above the floor................Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 08:46:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA29954 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 08:46:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA17409; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 08:32:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 08:27:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17071 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 08:26:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17067 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 08:26:51 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ080305; Mon, 16 Nov 98 06:38:22 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA46212; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 06:38:52 -0700 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 06:38:52 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Bruce Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: metal rooofing for rainwater harvesting In-Reply-To: <364E3741.84F14694@ivnet.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4953 You said:" Also, some of the metal roofing has sufficient zinc content to retard oxidation." _________________________________________________________________________ Bruce or anyone else: Considering the above and other chemicals added to metal roofing, are there any concerns for using prepainted metal roofing for potable water collection? One concern would be flashings. Is lead a constituent of recycled metal roofing, and if the corrugated metal cracks will lead bleed out? Is metal roofing using recycled content acceptable from a health point of view, even if it is painted? So fa our verdict has been it is safe. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 08:59:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA00133 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 08:59:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA18049; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 08:45:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 08:40:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17615 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 08:39:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17611 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 08:39:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from Alisa (usr0a70.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.70]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA14165; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 08:53:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981116085347.007235fc@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 08:53:47 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Danny Sagan Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4954 Hey there, Does anybody know of any good printed information on the air-tight dry-wall approach for residential construction. Any articles or books etc. I need some info to pass on to a builder. Thanks in advance- Danny Sagan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 09:37:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA00869 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:37:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA20017; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:22:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:18:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19641 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:18:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.gis.net (home.gis.net [208.218.130.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19634 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:18:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from gis.net (216.41.31.184-ppp.gis.net [216.41.31.184]) by home.gis.net (8.8.8/8.8.8+djf) with ESMTP id JAA14674; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:31:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36503760.863A3F70@gis.net> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:32:00 -0500 From: Jeanne P Reply-To: jeannep@gis.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-NECCK (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Sagan CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: References: <3.0.3.32.19981116085347.007235fc@sover.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4955 Danny, Try the "Exemplary Home Builder's Field Guide" published in 1994 by the non-profit AEC. The author is Joseph Lstiburek. It is well organized with excellent drawings. Applied Energy Corporation (AEC), PO Box 12699, Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, Or call AEC 919-361-8000. Jeanne Perrin Danny Sagan wrote: > Hey there, > > Does anybody know of any good printed information on the air-tight dry-wall > approach for residential construction. Any articles or books etc. > I need some info to pass on to a builder. Thanks in advance- Danny Sagan > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 10:13:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01667 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:13:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22532; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:58:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:54:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22087 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:54:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22074; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:54:31 -0500 (EST) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id OKAPa07436; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:05:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <65628397.36503f3d@aol.com> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:05:33 EST To: obrien@hevanet.com, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4956 In a message dated 11/10/98 4:12:41 AM, obrien@hevanet.com wrote: <> It looks as though someone has been measuring those awful air-tight stoves again. Yes, low-temperature combustion of wood produces highly carcinogenic cyclical ring compounds, as reported in Scientific American some years ago. The solution is to ban air-tight wood stoves unless they can pass a suitably devised emissions code about two orders of magnitude stricter than that for power plants (because people are about two orders of magnitude less likely to operate their stoves properly and avoid using them as trash incinerators). Less expensive, partial damper stoves can be operated with minimal creosote and smoke, but people can operate these badly too. A bit more education could help by encouraging people to 1) burn wood at "full throttle" to drive off and combust volatiles before damping down. To learn how long with your fuel, stove, and other specific conditons it takes, damp down and step outside. If there is smoke, you didn't wait long enough. Thermal mass near the stove helps damp the fluctuations in household temperature caused by this practice. It would be a good time to dump some heat into an attached solar greenhouse, etc. 2) Make fires sized to need, small fires for taking the chill off, large fires to counter serious winter cold. (Don't let the Florida address confuse you--I've heated with wood where the temperature can dip to -35F and where a few weeks below 0 F are almost routine.) 3) Sort wood by BTUs when sorting. Hot burning (e.g. white oak), medium (e.g. red maple), not so hot (e.g. Canadian hemlock, poplar, alder, etc.) Within these you will learn which woods burn fast, dumping all th eir heat quickly (biscut wood, ideal for a cool morning) and which are steady burners. Wet wood is worse than dry green wood, if you are stuck with less than the ideal. I'm probably not going to comment again, so for the people who want to encourage a thermostat mentality, note that we will likely be on the opposite sides of every other issue that comes up too. There is nothing wrong with involvement in the details of life and wood heat is one of the most satisfying ways to do this. You get to know the wood not only species by species, but tree by tree as you cut it and stick by stick as you split it. Given that you have the opportunity to cut wood sustainably (very difficult now that "acid rain" damage accelerates with any biomass withdrawal from forests), involvement in the whole process of wood heat from forest to living room is equally satisfying to growing ones own food in a sustainably managed garden. In my view, if yu aren't involved, it can't be green. Don't expect me to counter opposing views, however. I'll not mess with the intractable when I could be working up our little stash of winter firewood. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 10:21:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01898 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:21:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23223; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:07:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:03:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22851 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:03:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22844 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:03:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from my_machine.UIC.EDU (SLIP10B-02.DIALIN.UIC.EDU [128.248.141.118]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA18620 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:06:13 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981116090934.006c29d4@tigger.cc.uic.edu> X-Sender: miversen@tigger.cc.uic.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:09:34 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Michael Iversen Subject: GBlist: Airtight Drywall Approach In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981116085347.007235fc@sover.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4957 At 08:53 AM 11/16/98 -0500, Danny Sagan wrote: > >Does anybody know of any good printed information on the air-tight dry-wall >approach for residential construction. Any articles or books etc. >I need some info to pass on to a builder. The following report includes information concerning the Airtight Drywall Approach (ADA). It may be found at Argonne National Laboratory / Existing Buildings Efficiency Research Program's website (http://beijing.dis.anl.gov/ee/cgi-bin/rehab_doc/rehab_title.html). Energy-Efficient Rehabilitation of Multifamily Buildings in the Midwest A DOE-HUD Initiative Report / September 1994 Argonne National Laboratory Decision and Information Sciences Division by J.T. Katarakis, P.A. Knight, and J.D. Cavallo Work sponsored by United States Department of Energy, Assistant Secretary for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, Office of Building Technologies, Existing Buildings Research Program, under contract W-31-109-ENG-38 Michael Iversen, AIA Adjunct Assistant Professor University of Illinois at Chicago School of Architecture (m/c 030) 3100 Art and Architecture Building, Room 3100 845 West Harrison Street Chicago, IL 60607-7024 Tel: 773.244.9227 Fax: 773.871.0121 E-mail: MIversen@uic.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 10:35:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02112 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:35:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24273; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:21:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:17:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23844 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:17:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23840 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:17:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA24052 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:29:35 -0600 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:27:26 -0600 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: steel recycling embodied energy Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:27:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4958 > -----Original Message----- > > Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:52:58 -0800 > From: John Salmen > Subject: Re: GBlist: steel recycling embodied energy > > The american iron and steel institute state that all north american steel > contains a recycled content. > They use the figure that a standard oxygen furnace (which would be the > process for roofing steel, framing, appliance and car bodies, etc) uses > 28% recycled steel. I imagine the quantity varies more or less as a result > of availability > and cost of recycled material at time of manuf. than a question of recipe. > > John - Actually, it IS a question of recipe. I spoke with a very helpful guy at the AISI, and he explained it this way: In the basic oxygen furnace, the recycled steel acts as "ice seeds", to cool the melt and make the reactions more controllable. 28% is the maximum feasible recycled content; If a greater percentage is used, it takes too much energy to melt the mass(ie, it becomes uneconomical). So, unless there is some change in technology, steel studs will never contain more than approx. 28% recycled content. Hope this helps. - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 12:36:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA04310 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:36:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02574; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:21:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:17:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02121 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:17:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02116 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:17:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DT7NSUPQ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:30:30 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:34:17 -0800 Subject: GBlist: water Message-ID: <19981116.123418.3646.4.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-9 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4959 Hi, I just read the posting about using water runoff from roofs. My question is, is it ok to use water run-off from fibre cement roofing to water a greenhouse garden? Are there any health concerns as far as absorption by vegetable plants? Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 13:29:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA06228 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:29:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05853; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:14:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:08:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05248 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:08:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05222; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:08:37 -0500 (EST) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id RSTMa03080; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:57:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1b694534.3650678d@aol.com> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:57:33 EST To: environs.com@Juno.com, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: water Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4960 The health concerns are undoubtedly less than either municipal or ground water and surely less than surface water in Florida. What kinds of fibers are used in the roof? Asbestos is the only sort that I can see any potential problem and this would not be taken up but may cling to fibers or be engulfed by root crops. (You don't see dirt inside these roots, so they obviously do not engulf as a matter of course.) I'd use such material on my crops and be happy to have rain water, which is always more stimulating to plants than water from other sources. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 13:29:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA06238 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:29:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05964; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:11:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05528 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:11:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05508; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:11:15 -0500 (EST) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id RGGUa03998; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:53:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 12:53:53 EST To: environs.com@JUNO.com, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: water Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4961 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 14:01:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06868 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:01:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08308; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:46:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:43:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA07959 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:42:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07955 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:42:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on7-47.netcom.ca [207.181.91.239]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13015; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:55:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981116134556.00a27f00@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:53:49 -0400 To: YankeePerm@aol.com From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <65628397.36503f3d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4962 At 10:05 AM 16/11/98 -0500, Dan Hemenway wrote: > >Here's a brief excerpt from a Philadelphia Inquirer article of Dec. 19, >1994, "Yule logs are hazardous to your health" by Art Carey. > >"Then there's this, from Environmental Protection Agency researchers: >Your cancer risk from wood stove emissions is 12 times that from the >same amount of cigarette smoke. > >...(snip) Burn a 20-pound stack of wood in an evening and you've >put a pound of pollution into the air. Let's see, that would be 500 grams per 10 kilos, or 50 g/kg. That's certainly possible with an open fireplace, if you try real hard. A typical new woodstove today burns at 5 g/kg, ie., 90% less emissions that the Philadelphia Inquirer implies is typical for wood. A masonry heater or pellet stove burns at 1 - 2 grams. I wish these geniuses would get it together to point out the good news that you can easily burn wood 10 times more cleanly than the neighbourhood goofball does....................NS ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 15:15:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA08316 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:15:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12860; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:00:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:56:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12415 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:56:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12411 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:56:38 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id EYSBa10441; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:08:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:08:19 EST To: dsagan@sover.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: GBList: Air-Tight Drywall Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4963 Danny, For one, there is Joe Lstiburek's "Builder's Guide," published in three climate versions by Building Science Corporation, Westford, MA phone: 508-589-5100 email: info@buildingscience.com website: Building Science Corp. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone: 510-841-1039 fax: 510-841-1008 iaqkibbey@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- In a message dated 11/16/98 5:55:51 AM, dsagan@sover.net writes: >Hey there, > >Does anybody know of any good printed information on the air-tight dry-wall >approach for residential construction. Any articles or books etc. >I need some info to pass on to a builder. Thanks in advance- Danny Sagan > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 15:34:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA08623 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:34:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14301; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:19:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:16:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13927 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:16:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811162016.PAA13927@solstice.crest.org> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 10:10:19 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: James Cavallo Subject: Re: GBlist: Airtight Drywall Approach Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4964 Dear Friends - The web site that is mentioned in e-mail note below from Mike Iversen has been moved. The report can be found at: http://www.eren.doe.gov/buildings/residential/multifam.htm Sorry for any inconvenience. Jim Cavallo At 09:09 AM 11/16/98 -0600, you wrote: >At 08:53 AM 11/16/98 -0500, Danny Sagan wrote: >> >>Does anybody know of any good printed information on the air-tight dry-wall >>approach for residential construction. Any articles or books etc. >>I need some info to pass on to a builder. > >The following report includes information concerning the Airtight Drywall >Approach (ADA). It may be found at Argonne National Laboratory / Existing >Buildings Efficiency Research Program's website >(http://beijing.dis.anl.gov/ee/cgi-bin/rehab_doc/rehab_title.html). > >Energy-Efficient Rehabilitation of Multifamily Buildings in the Midwest >A DOE-HUD Initiative Report / September 1994 > >Argonne National Laboratory >Decision and Information Sciences Division > >by J.T. Katarakis, P.A. Knight, and J.D. Cavallo > >Work sponsored by United States Department of Energy, >Assistant Secretary for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, >Office of Building Technologies, Existing Buildings Research Program, >under contract W-31-109-ENG-38 > _____________________________________________________________ Message sent by: James Cavallo, Ph.D. Manager, Existing Buildings Efficiency Research Program Argonne National Laboratory 9700 South Cass Ave. Argonne, IL 60439 E-mail: cavallo@anl.gov Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 28 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 17:39:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA11088 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:39:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22467; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:25:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:21:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA22005 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21998 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:21:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA10-p17.dreamscape.com [209.4.252.209]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA05860 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:34:04 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sA10-p17.dreamscape.com [209.4.252.209] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:34:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3650A7E8.1E9AFB30@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 17:32:08 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Airtight Drywall Approach Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4965 Here is a somewhat more concise explanation of ADA. http://www.its-canada.com/reed/avb/adaindex.htm Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek design Earlville, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 21:28:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14964 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:28:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06861; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:13:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:08:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05415 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:08:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05411 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-34-167.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.167]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA22966; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:21:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:26:42 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE11A7.CDBA45A0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Andy Shapiro'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Cc: "Marc.J.Rosenbaum@valley.net" Subject: RE: GBlist: Re:massive wood heaters and passive solar Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:58:43 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4966 On Sunday, November 15, 1998 10:48 AM, Andy Shapiro [SMTP:ashapiro@together.net] wrote: > > John - thank you for your reply. This scheme sounds very interesting -- Actually, it is merely a variation on heatilators and the interior of a msonry stove. BTW. Placing an elbow in the metal chimney helps too. > This solves the problem of being able to get heat out fast if you need to, > and to be able to at least slow down until later the output of heat if the > sun comes out unexpectedly. I like the fact that no particular expertise > is needed beyond masonry and that parts are basically off-the-shelf. > > Is this your house? When you say "moderate solar exposure" can you be more > specific -- say sq.ft of south-facing glass and house heat loss rate? One is my sister's, the other is a neighbour friend who is retired, and being a stationary engineer likes to tinker with heating equipment. > What's it like to live with? How much manual attention to dampers is No problems for people used to a wood stove. Very little attention to dampers > required? How was the top of the masonry enclosure handled below the > ceiling to keep the ceiling of the house (presumably wood framed) from Cement board ceiling with an air space. I would prefer a conc slab, but these were retrofit renovation type jobs. > getting too hot? It would seem that the details would be important here > and for mechanisms to let hot air out and keep it in as needed -- a 400F > temp difference would created enough pressure to bypass a lot of typical > dampers. Yes the damper leaks, but who cares, you just have dropped the convective flow by a factor of one hundred, good enough for a modicum of control. >Was the bottom open around the woodstove? Yes, no special control. > I would guess this > system would not be too sensitive to height, as in the stove being located > on the first floor as opposed to a basement. I agree, except that then I would install the inlet vent in the floor to suck in cool basement air. The height thing is important for whole house circulation. If you used fans to move air around, problem solved. > > Did the $2000 include the stove, or just the masonry enclosure? and is that > Canadian or US$ The stove was $600 Canadian and the masonry about 1500 Canadian. >My catalytic stove routinely has post-catalyst > temperatures > 1000F and up to 1400 or more with a hot burn, so is the > masonry stove doing better somehow? Norbert is the man to ask this. I think it would depend a lot on how much heat is recovered from the chimney after the catlytic converter. The real concern I have about the system is that the exhaust temp on the roof seems to high, certainly higher than the masonry stove chimneys I have stuck my head in (do not try this is at home folks - trained stint engineer). >Having the inside built as a masonry > stove would seem to defeat the ability to obtain heat quickly. I do not think so. 4" of firebrick should not take long to get hot on the exterior. Sure it would take 15-30 minutes longer, but I doubt it would be worse than that. I could calculate this with a computer program I have though .... >It's > unclear how to decide if more surface area inside the outer enclosure would > be needed. Maybe the extra surface would be needed more on a one-story > than a two-story model... I think it would depend on the ratio of the wood stove output versus the surface area of the receiving area. Larger output stove should have larger interior surface area of mass to collect the heat, but it would epend on the amount of mass you want. In my sisters place, the size of the enclosure was strongly dictated by the aesthetic wish of my sister to have a fireplace with a mantel! ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 21:28:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14963 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:28:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06889; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:13:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:09:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05433 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:08:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05427 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:08:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-34-167.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.167]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA23012; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:21:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:26:48 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE11A7.D164B000.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Dean Still'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Re:massive wood heaters and passive solar Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:11:29 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4967 On Sunday, November 15, 1998 4:03 PM, Dean Still [SMTP:dstill@epud.org] wrote: > Six years ago, we tested a six inch stove pipe buried in a 8' long cob > bench, and the temperature drop after that long run was only 100 degrees F. > (800 to 700 degrees F.) The bench didn't get very warm, ecxept directly > above the pipe, since cold seeped into it from contact with an uninsulated > wall and floor. IMO you need a lot more surface area than just mass around > a normal stove to get chimney exit temps. down to around 250F where you > want them. Very true. The idea of mass around a stove was NOT to reduce chimney exit temps, but rather to smooth out and moderate the bursts of heat that a efficiently run stove would produce. The added benefit was more controllability of the heat delivery rate. >A high mass stove is very convoluted inside. It is more than the distance, it is the type of flow path. Rough surfaces, changes in flow direction and cross-section all greatly improve the heat transfer to the mass. A smooth straight steel pipe is just about the worst possible heat transfer situtation. Making the same 8 foot length differently could easily double heat transfer to the thermal mass. The amount can be roughly calculated knowing the heat transfer coeffiients and the heat capacity. > Then last year we got three pyranometers, measures the amount of sunlight. > When we put a black cement 12" by 12", two inch thick cement slab into the > sunlight and measure the stored energy after four peak sunlit hours, about > 100 btu's were stored in the slab. That's about 17%. 17% of what! This experiment has some relevance with respect to exterior cladding but has almost nothing to do with thermal mass behind double-glazed south-facing windows in an insulated room >Other same sized > slabs, out of direct sunlight, did not store any appreciable amount of > solar energy, i.e., the passive mass stayed at the temperature of the > interior air. In our strawbale dormitory with 25% south facing glass there > are about 250 square feet of floor area in the winter that receive direct > sunshine. If each sf stores 100 btu's then we have stored 25,000 btu's by > days end. Helps keep temperatures up for an hour if leaky, more if you live > in a better house. A 3" thick concrete slab (of 150 pcf density) stores about 142 Btu per square foot per degree F. Thus for a slab temp swing of 10 dF, each sf releases/absorbs 1425 Btu. For 250 sf thats 35600 Btu. This is based on heat capacity data replicated by thousands of research labs around the world and found to work just find in predicting thermal response in test and real buildings. >IMO, it doesn't take a lot of mass to moderate temperatures. This is factually true, but you would need maybe 10 to 20 psf before you notice much improvement in temperature stability. This is not "a lot" but is more than most framed-drywall finished homes. On the other hand, a well-insulated steel framed shed with less than 1 pcf mass react very quickly and uncomfortably to any change in energy balance within the building enclosure. > The water in a 55 gallon black drum, inside a solar house, rose 10 degrees > in temperature after being exposed to the peak solar hours. The water > inside another drum beside it, blocked from exposure to sunlight, rose 9 > degrees. The interior air temperature rose 12 degrees during the test. > Direct sunlight contacting the 6 square feet of drum surface area added 1 > degree temperature rise in the 456 pounds of water at about 15% efficiency. > It was the air temperature that resulted in the temperature rise in thermal > mass, both direct and indirect.IMO, it isn't radiation that heats most mass > it is a rise in interior temperature. If you were to do an experiment where you controlled all the relevant variables (eq convective and radiation heat transfer, not just assuming het gain is radiative only), you would find this to be untrue except in strange situtations. Many people have found that the water bottles/pop cans/gas cans heat up in no time at all when laid in the sun. > As far as wood fired stoves go, IMO, it doesn't matter if you put the heat > into mass or air or water, just so long as it doesn't shoot up the chimney > first. Combustion temperatures will be higher than 1200F in a metal stove I think this is a valid and fundamental point about efficiency. I think that the reason the masonry stoves are efficient is their very hot burns and short burn times and the fact that they take the heat out of the exhaust. There is little reason that steel stoves cannot do the same, except that: 1) steel loses a significant portion of its strength by 600 F, and at 1200 F will settle under its own weight. 2) the heat output must be regulated through some other means, eg water or mass storage and/or some means of moving heat around, like natural buoyancy or fans. Norbert may be able to comment. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 21:28:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14962 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:28:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06879; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:13:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:08:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05452 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:08:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05440 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:08:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-34-167.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.167]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA23085; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:21:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:26:55 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE11A7.D5849880.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'John Salmen'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: building materials as CO2 sinks Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:21:28 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4968 On Sunday, November 15, 1998 9:24 PM, John Salmen [SMTP:terrain@cow-net.com] wrote: > Gregory Thomas gave the following as part of a ref. http://www.sustainable-steel.com/ > If anyone has some time it would be worth a read and comments on both the content and > on lca's in general. I found the papers on the site very disappointing. Very little hard data or science and lots of hand waving statements. The fact that almost all of the sponsors were steel companies and that most of the authors were somehow realted to the steel industry also raised my eyebrows. Hardly a forum for balanced views. The one paper I read thoroughly involved the comparision of embodied energy of a steel and concrete apartment building. The authors state that the steel building weighed one half the concrete building (good right?) and that steel used about 20 MJ/kg and concrete 1 MJ/kg (pretty normal numbers). They then conclude that the steel building used less energy to construct. Huh? While there may be factors that lead to this conclusion, they are not presented, and any paper should be self-standing in its major conclusions, especially when so counter-intuitive. Another paper dealt with thermal mass, concluding that the mass in the floor of office buildings was sufficient thermal mass, and concrete walls and columns added little benefit. The assumed the top and bottom of the concrete slab was exposed to air flow or even assumed fans forced air along the underside. Neither assumption is even close to reasonable. The benefit of mass within the enclosure itself was not even mentioned. After reading through a few more papers I concluded that steel must indeed be the least green structural building material, based on the fact that the supporters had to go to great and convoluted lengths and use pseudo-science to "prove" it was green. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 21:28:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14985 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:28:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA07030; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:13:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:09:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05459 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:08:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05444 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-34-167.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.167]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA22880; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:21:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:26:33 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE11A7.C896F6E0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Jorg D. Ostrowski'" , John Salmen Cc: "'Jennifer Corson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: RE: building materials as CO2 sinks Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:39:06 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4969 On Sunday, November 15, 1998 8:30 AM, Jorg D. Ostrowski [SMTP:jdo@ucalgary.ca] wrote: > cementacious materials such as concrete tiles, concrete foundations and > stucco help to reduce climatic warming while making these products stronger > (durable)? Is this a significant CO2 sink compared to oceans and forests? > Is the increase in structural strength significant? If so, this could be > a significant criterion for sustainability? Do you have any references? A recent article (12 months ago?) in the ACI Structures Journal reported on Finnish research into concrete. Althugh somewhat biased toward concrete IMO, it is a chemical fact that concrete consumes CO2, just like lime does. There is still a net CO2 production becuase of the enrgy to change the form of the material, but all the CO2 released is reabsorbed over time (less than 1 year for thin highly porous products and more than 50 yrs for thick high density/strength products). In many cases concrete can absorb 40 or even 50% of the CO2 produced during production. Concrete production produces CO2, more than wood(!) but much less than many of the figures given for the production process only. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 21:28:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14991 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:28:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA07129; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:14:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:09:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05634 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05609 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:09:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-34-167.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.167]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA22933; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:21:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:26:38 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE11A7.CBBB1A40.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'John Salmen'" , "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Cc: "'Jennifer Corson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: building materials as CO2 sinks Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:43:00 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4970 On Sunday, November 15, 1998 11:33 AM, John Salmen [SMTP:terrain@cow-net.com] wrote: > I once came upon some research on liquid co2 injection into concrete as a > hardening process perhaps John Straube has some information on this. > In any event the comparison was to metal which loses strength as it oxidizes. High pressure gas works the best. Very high pressure gas forces the CO2 into the pores so fast that you can harden a sample of concrete to its 28 day strength in 30 minutes. The process is economically impractical, although it is a good example of the chemical process that occurs naturally in high speed. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 21:29:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA15017 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:29:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA07306; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:15:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:10:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05757 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:09:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05731; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:09:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-34-167.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.167]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA22673; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:20:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:26:10 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE11A7.BA9B40A0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Jorg D. Ostrowski'" Cc: Bryan Fofonoff , "fofonoff@telusplanet.net" , "'hvac@together.net'" , Alex Wilson , Bill Smith , Strawbale Listserver Cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: RE: Mass and Building Time Constant Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 09:27:20 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4971 On Saturday, November 14, 1998 9:40 AM, Jorg D. Ostrowski [SMTP:jdo@ucalgary.ca] wrote: > > "A good number is from 2 (low) to 5 (a little high) psf. I normally do > a rough claculation of the partition walls (two layrs of drywall matter..) > and then add for applicances/furniture" > The 2-5 PSF refers to furniture only? Why use 2 layers of drywall when A partition has drywall on both sides. Values include house and normal furniture. > With your comment of below, the aim would be to see how long a house would > take to cool down (how much "grace period") before it would sustain > damage (ie. pipes freezing) for a plumber or electrician to > arrive under dire (worst case scenario) situation (ie. remote location). > The total effect of mass could be critical at that time. I have done this > calculation before for a project where interior walls were rammed earth > and the exterior walls were strawbale, but I would like to do these > calculations in a more rigorous manner. I would like to assume no internal > (heat gain) or external (solar) thermal input to define the worst case > scenario at an outside design temperature of -24dF. A graph allowing > indoor temperature choices (ie. 70dF to 40dF, or others) would be of interest. This is actaully complex to do accurately. I would instead use the square footage of all mass of 4" or less, and then calculate the heat provided by such mass cooling say 10 dF. Comparing this mass to the heat loss through the enclosure using normal techniques one would have a rough time to cool 10 dF. The catch is the RATE of heat given off by the slab must be greater than the RATE of heat loss. The rate of heat loss of the mass decreases with time and increases with delta T. So the above guesses are valid for well insulted homes with well distributed mass. As I remember it, Kachadorians recent book on passive solar took a variation of this approach. > ARE THERE ANY GOOD ARTICLES ON BUILDING TIME CONSTANT? None I know of. The CIBS Guide provides some manual means to calculate thermal admittance which can be converted to time constants, but, again, the effort is not worth the result. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 21:57:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA15574 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:57:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09258; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:39:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08693 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:38:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08688 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:38:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-34-167.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.167]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA04540; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:51:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:57:18 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE11AC.13F7B300.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'ashcreek@dreamscape.com'" , Greenbuilding Subject: RE: GBlist: Airtight Drywall Approach Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:53:10 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4972 I love this site and think it is one of the best energy efficiency house building sites on the web. There are few "imperfections" (my opinion) but it is generally very good. On Monday, November 16, 1998 5:32 PM, Chuck Hinckley [SMTP:ashcreek@dreamscape.com] wrote: > Here is a somewhat more concise explanation of ADA. > http://www.its-canada.com/reed/avb/adaindex.htm There is little or no need to use sometimes hard to source gaskets (relative to sealant) in the ADA. Only the electrical boxes really need it. Remember that finished corners in drywall are tight and dont need sealant. I prefer to carry the drywall through behind partitions that intersect the exterior wall by leaving a 5/8" gap during framing. Another approach that I think is excellent, and should be considered complementary, is the ASA or airtight sheathing approach. Taping seams on sheets of rigid foam insulation, or applying Candadian Tyvek (which is tight), or sealing the joints between sheets of wood sheathing works quite well as an air barrier. Owens-Corning Celfortec has been selling a very well thought out package for insulated XPS ASA in Montreal for more than a year now. They are planning to expand across the country, but I have not seen it else where ... If interested in the very nice mulit-coloured installation guide (70 pp long) and purchasing the system (quite economical I am promised), call Robert Cardinal of Celfortec Technical Services on 450 377 1725 and ask about the CodeBord Air Barrier System. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 21:57:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA15579 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:57:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09267; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:42:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:38:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08680 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:38:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08676 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:38:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-34-167.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.167]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA04463; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:51:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:57:06 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE11AC.0D185C60.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Norbert Senf'" , "YankeePerm@aol.com" Cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:39:17 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4973 On Monday, November 16, 1998 12:54 PM, Norbert Senf [SMTP:mheat@mha-net.org] wrote: > pellet stove burns at 1 - 2 grams. I wish these geniuses would get it > together to point out the good news that you can easily burn wood 10 times > more cleanly than the neighbourhood goofball does....................NS That would not sell papers now would it? ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 16 22:36:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA16007 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:36:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA11362; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:21:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:17:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10882 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10878 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:17:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.57] (rkd033.acadia.net [208.244.128.57]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA22291 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:33:42 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 22:29:38 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Re: CO2 sinks Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4974 Dear Folks, I asked my brother about concrete being a sink for CO2, since this is a current topic. I'm forwarding his reply: quote > >I'm no expert on the chemistry of concrete, so folks in your chat group may >know alot more about this than me. > >Anyway, I looked around a little bit and realized that this is more >complicated than it sounds... > >At first I was thinking about manufacturing cement, which is known to be a >fairly large CO2 source (after fossil fuels and land use). > >Basically, *cement* is made by heating (in a kiln) calcium carbonate >(CaCO3) and turning it into lime, or calcium oxide (CaO): > >CaCO3 + Heat -> CaO + CO2 > >It's estimated that cement making releases 560 million tonnes of CO2 per >year (about 2.5 percent of the total CO2 emissions). Historically >speaking, CO2 emissions from cement making have increased eight-fold in the >last 40 years or so (which is about three times the population growth >rate). Interesting, huh? > >(see http://www.smps.ntu.edu.au/j_mitroy/sid101/uncc/fs030.html for more >information on this) > >When making *concrete*, however, other things start to happen. Alot of the >CO2 initially released in the process of making cement can be reabsorbed >when setting conrete. There is some interesting chemistry involved here... > >Now, how much CO2 can be absorbed by setting concrete? > >Well, I found several interesting articles about this. The best one is >from an old issue of Environmental Building News (no surprise to you, I'm >sure): > >http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Other_Copy/ConcreteCO2sink.html > >So, it would seem that it is possible to absorb a significant amount of >CO2, under the right conditions, when setting concrete. The Environmental >Building News article says that about 80% of the initial CO2 release can be >reabsorbed by curing concrete under the right conditions (in a laboratory). >In the real world, it is likely to be a much smaller figure. > >On the whole, it is clear that using cement & concrete is still a *net* >source of CO2 to the atmosphere no matter what (this is not even >considering the energy used in the cement manufacturing, transportation of >materials, concrete mixing, etc.) You can't soak up more CO2 in curing >concrete than was originally released in the manufacture of cement. > >I can't say for sure, but I would guess the net emissions of concrete >construction are alot higher than wood construction. When you harvest a >trees for timber, you have a pretty good chance at actually creating a >*net* carbon sink (at least in the short term -- of course, this depends on >what happens to the timber in the long run). It would be very interesting >to compare the net CO2 emissions of creating/using different building >materials! > >With that said, it would seem to me that you green builders should be >thinking about how to: > >1. minimize the use of concrete, and > >2. if you still need to use it (in foundations and such), then try to >maximize the carbon absorbing ability of the setting concrete (to try to >recapture some of the CO2 released when the cement was made) > >Does this make sense? Again, I'm no expert on concrete! I'm just thinking >out loud here... > >Cheers, Jon end of quote David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 00:02:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA17316 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 00:02:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17470; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 23:48:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 16 Nov 1998 23:44:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17139 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 23:44:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from whidbey.whidbey.com (ns.whidbey.com [204.94.52.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17132 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 23:44:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.94.53.119] (b2-53-119.whidbey.com [204.94.53.119]) by whidbey.whidbey.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA29318; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 20:56:17 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199811170456.UAA29318@whidbey.whidbey.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.0c (197) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 21:00:33 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Structural Insulated Panels (SIPs) - Agriboard, et.al. From: "The Cyrs" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4975 Does anyone on this list have any experience with Agriboard SIPs? How do they perform? Some questions have been raised about their insulative qualities in the January EBN newsletter. My wife and I are considering using them in our new home but would like some 'unbiased' information before making this major commitment. Please don't hold back. Compliments and concerns are what I'm looking for. Also, are there other SIPs that you think are worth considering. Craig Cyr ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 08:17:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA21210 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:17:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03286; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:02:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:58:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA02982 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:58:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA02977 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:58:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA31959 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:10:51 -0600 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:08:44 -0600 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: building materials as CO2 sinks Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:08:42 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4976 > -----Original Message----- > > Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:21:28 -0500 > From: John Straube > Subject: RE: GBlist: building materials as CO2 sinks > > On Sunday, November 15, 1998 9:24 PM, John Salmen > [SMTP:terrain@cow-net.com] wrote: > > Gregory Thomas gave the following as part of a ref. > http://www.sustainable-steel.com/ > > If anyone has some time it would be worth a read and comments on both > the > content and > > on lca's in general. > > I found the papers on the site very disappointing. Very little hard data > or science and lots of hand waving statements. > John: You might find these references to be useful: Cole, R.J., and D. Rousseau. 1992. Environmental auditing for building construction: Energy and air pollution indices for building materials. Building & Environment, 27(1): 23-30. Cole, R. J., et al. 1992. Environmental audits of alternative structural systems for warehouse buildings. Canadian Jour. of Civil Engineering, 19(5): 886-895. Marcea, R.L., and K.K. Lau. 1992. Carbon dioxide implications of building materials. Jour. of Forest Engineering, 3(2): 37-43. - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 08:57:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA21730 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:57:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA05199; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:41:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:38:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04797 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:38:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04793 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:38:05 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1OXYa03875 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:50:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <45b4cbe0.36517f1c@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 08:50:20 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4977 >Is wood smoke hazardous? Or are we over-reacting? You can find extensive >information about the health effects of wood burning at >http://burningissues.org. But lets look at the whole. -When was the last time we had a fire wood spill which polluted the ground or a body of water -My wood guy is _local_ and uses a sustainable, renewable resource from a managed wood lot. -The US has never gone to war over firewood. -No one has gotten black lung from "mining" firewood (although chain saws can be dangerous) And so on. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Inc. Contractors, Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 09:53:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22527 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:53:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08222; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:38:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:35:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07746 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:34:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07742 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 09:34:48 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ332250; Tue, 17 Nov 98 07:46:19 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA124736; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:47:13 -0700 Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:47:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: John Straube Cc: John Salmen , "'Jennifer Corson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: stucco as CO2 sinks In-Reply-To: <01BE11A7.C896F6E0.jfstraube@golden.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4978 John: Based on your note of below (especially: "all the CO2 released is reabsorbed over time (less than 1 year for thin highly porous products.."), stucco may promise some significant "CO2 Absorption" characteristics, besides the regular sustainable advantages. Would anyone agree and are there any references specific to stucco? Jorg Ostrowski __________________________________________________________________________ A recent article (12 months ago?) in the ACI Structures Journal reported on Finnish research into concrete. Althugh somewhat biased toward concrete IMO, it is a chemical fact that concrete consumes CO2, just like lime does. There is still a net CO2 production becuase of the enrgy to change the form of the material, but all the CO2 released is reabsorbed over time (less than 1 year for thin highly porous products and more than 50 yrs for thick high density/strength products). In many cases concrete can absorb 40 or even 50% of the CO2 produced during production. Concrete production produces CO2, more than wood(!) but much less than many of the figures given for the production process only. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 10:23:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA23071 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:23:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10436; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:08:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:05:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10016 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:04:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10011 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:04:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.106]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3203400 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:23:58 -0800 Message-ID: <3651930B.6E6D3E49@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:15:24 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" CC: "'ashcreek@dreamscape.com'" , Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Airtight Drywall Sheathing Approach References: <01BE11AC.13F7B300.jfstraube@golden.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4979 I have been trying to find supply of extra wide vapour tape (4") that I thought was being made for commonly used for ASA (to tape sheathing). Does anyone have a manuf. name as it does not appear in any of the common manuf. catalogs. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 10:47:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA23552 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:47:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12511; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:33:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:29:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12163 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:29:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12159 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:29:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.104]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3213500 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:48:55 -0800 Message-ID: <365198D7.EE6390AE@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:40:07 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: CO2 sinks References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4980 Concrete will absorb more co2 than was used in manufacturer - it will continue to absorb co2 until it becomes chemically neutral a process that could take a thousand years or more. Not necessarily useful but in the longer scheme of things. Though there are some (very old) wood structures around by and large most have been replaced numerous times for the life of a concrete wall. The net loss of wood through rotting and burning is a co2 release. Most trees don't begin retirement until the age of 500 or so and still are useful members of their community. The most difficult factor about forest use is loss of forest size and limited understanding of what constitutes a 'forest' as apposed to a bunch of trees (a kind of TND planning problem). Another concern in areas of selective cutting is ratio of soil loss to harvesting and how long such sites will endure. I agree that rules of conservation apply and materials such as concrete are not used in any relationship to their strength or usefulness. We need to encourage new convention of foundation details for example. Commonly used footing details are grossly oversized and often not necessary. Pier footings connected by beams or frost free slab foundations are simple conventions that need to be encouraged more. Precast basement walls typically use 1/3-1/2 less concrete to greater strength, etc. John John David M. Foley wrote: > >On the whole, it is clear that using cement & concrete is still a *net* > >source of CO2 to the atmosphere no matter what (this is not even > >considering the energy used in the cement manufacturing, transportation of > >materials, concrete mixing, etc.) You can't soak up more CO2 in curing > >concrete than was originally released in the manufacture of cement. > > > >I can't say for sure, but I would guess the net emissions of concrete > >construction are alot higher than wood construction. When you harvest a > >trees for timber, you have a pretty good chance at actually creating a > >*net* carbon sink (at least in the short term -- of course, this depends on > >what happens to the timber in the long run). It would be very interesting > >to compare the net CO2 emissions of creating/using different building > >materials! > > > >With that said, it would seem to me that you green builders should be > >thinking about how to: > > > >1. minimize the use of concrete, and > > > >2. if you still need to use it (in foundations and such), then try to > >maximize the carbon absorbing ability of the setting concrete (to try to > >recapture some of the CO2 released when the cement was made) > > > >Does this make sense? Again, I'm no expert on concrete! I'm just thinking > >out loud here... > > > >Cheers, Jon > > end of quote > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 11:12:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24051 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:12:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13954; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:57:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:53:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13581 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:53:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from halifax.chebucto.ns.ca (halifax.chebucto.ns.Ca [192.75.95.75]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13564 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:53:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from corson@localhost by halifax.chebucto.ns.ca id <35967-699>; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:06:44 -0400 Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:06:44 -0400 (AST) From: Jennifer Corson To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: homeowner's manual Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4981 Hello, Another request. A non-renovator/builder friend of mine asked if there was such a thing as a manual/software/anything available to assist a homeowner to know what to check, clean, replace on an monthly basis around the home. We are on the eastern seaboard on the 45 deg. lat. location. Does anyone know of a good source for this type of information? Most buildings around here are woodframe. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Jennifer Corson *************************** at Solterre Design, PO Box 36032, Halifax, Nova Scotia B3J 3S9 at The Renovator's ReSource Inc., 5249 Smith Street, Halifax, NS, B3H 1M3 at Pick and Shovel Productions, Ste. 404, 1657 Barrington St, Halifax Phone (902) 492-1215, Fax (902) 425-6795 E-Mail: corson@chebucto.ns.ca *************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 12:09:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26334 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:09:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18765; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:54:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:51:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18256 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:51:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18246 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:51:00 -0500 (EST) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 2DYRa04821; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:02:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:02:36 EST To: mheat@mha-net.org Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4982 In a message dated 11/16/98 6:55:32 PM, mheat@mha-net.org wrote: < >Here's a brief excerpt from a Philadelphia Inquirer article of Dec. 19, >1994, "Yule logs are hazardous to your health" by Art Carey. > >"Then there's this, from Environmental Protection Agency researchers: >Your cancer risk from wood stove emissions is 12 times that from the >same amount of cigarette smoke. > >...(snip) Burn a 20-pound stack of wood in an evening and you've >put a pound of pollution into the air. >> This is not my post! Please attribute more carefully. It probably was the material I quoted from an earlier post. I favor responsible firewood use. Dan Hemenway For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 12:18:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26479 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:18:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19724; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:59:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA19194 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:59:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19186 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:59:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.137.73.121] (henyusr0-a57.herd.tds.net [208.137.73.121]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA21300; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:11:30 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 11:50:48 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: GBlist: metal rooofing for rainwater harvesting Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4983 clip: Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 06:38:52 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Subject: GBlist: metal rooofing for rainwater harvesting You said:" Also, some of the metal roofing has sufficient zinc content to retard oxidation." _________________________________________________________________________ Bruce or anyone else: Considering the above and other chemicals added to metal roofing, are there any concerns for using prepainted metal roofing for potable water collection? One concern would be flashings. Is lead a constituent of recycled metal roofing, and if the corrugated metal cracks will lead bleed out? Is metal roofing using recycled content acceptable from a health point of view, even if it is painted? So fa our verdict has been it is safe. Jorg Ostrowski end clip Jorge, Bruce, others, I have recently looked into the issue of lead contamination in galvanized coatings of steel. Galvanizing is a surface coating of zinc applied to steel. Apparently, most zinc is contaminated with a certain amount of lead. Not too surprising since geologically the two metals are often found together and many mines obtain both metals from their ores. I was comparing the amount of lead in galvanized steel electrical conduit, in comparison to the amount of lead found in PVC plastic electrical conduit. Lead (and cadmium too, also a toxic metal) are added to many PVC items. It turned out that the total mass of lead in both types of conduit might actually be similar. PVC has as much as 5% by weight of lead added, and I think the zinc can also contain up to 5% lead. 5% is a lot more lead than is allowed in paints these days. Presumably, the galvanized coatings and the PVC don't flake or turn to dust over time so the lead is less available to people and the environment. However, if a galvanized metal roof was used for potable water collection, it might be a consideration. If the galvanized roof had a layer of paint over the zinc (and lead) then that might seal off the lead. I don't believe lead levels in recycled (or "virgin") steel itself are anywhere near as high as 5%. It would be easy enough to test for lead in water collected from steel roofs. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 12:25:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26576 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20508; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:10:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:06:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20012 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:06:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20005; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:06:15 -0500 (EST) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1PEWa03997; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:18:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8a38f870.3651afd9@aol.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:18:17 EST To: Caaradrbl@aol.com, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Is Wood Smoke Hazardous? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4984 In a message dated 11/17/98 1:52:39 PM, Caaradrbl@aol.com wrote: <<-No one has gotten black lung from "mining" firewood (although chain saws can be dangerous)>> While in general agreement with your post, anyone who thinks chain saws CAN be dangerous shouldn't use one. Only people who know that they ARE EXTREMELY DANGEROUS should use one. That said, no one is forced to cut firewood with a chainsaw. The last I heard, underwriters ranked logging with agriculture as tied for the second most dangerous occupations. (Mining being first.) I don't know if they included military careers in here, but the ranking would probably stand. Like an automobile, a chain saw is dangerous not only to the operator but to everyone around him/her. If people who use them occupationally are very frequently hurt by them (one chain saw repairman said he didn't know an occupational logger who had not been injured), weekend woodcutters need to take extra precautions. I am not arguing against chain saws--which would be hypocritical as I operate one--but I do plea for profound respect of what that unguarded chain can do. (Not to mention the danger of wood falling out of the sky.) I recall quite vividly being a bit late in the process of slaughtering a steer and faced with dusk. I had to split him for the carcass to cool properly overnight (this was in Massachusetts in late fall). Giving up on my hand-powered meat saw I grabbed the chainsaw and went down through the spinal column with only slightly more resistance than butter. Basically, the saw was cutting faster than I wanted to move it. In a few seconds, under 5 for sure, the animal was split in two. We are all made out of that kind of stuff. Chain saws ARE dangerous. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 13:06:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27291 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:06:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23224; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:51:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:47:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22662 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:47:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22657 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:47:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.23] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:06:28 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Air Sealing Information Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:02:57 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1300825306-1740795@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4985 Danny The most up to date source is the EEBA Builders Field Guide, written (like everything else) by Joe Lstiburek. You can buy it directly from EEBA, or Joe or from our online catalog . I believe that the Exemplary Home Builder's Field Guide, which Joe wrote with AEC, is out of print. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Our Energy Source Builder newsletter carried many articles on air sealing techniques. You can see most of the back issues on the Web at . You could always print them for the builder. Good Luck with your project. Bruce >Does anybody know of any good printed information on the air-tight dry-wall >approach for residential construction. Any articles or books etc. >I need some info to pass on to a builder. Thanks in advance- Danny Sagan ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 13:08:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27338 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:08:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23528; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:54:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:50:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22963 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:50:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22958 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:50:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from kbell (pool-207-205-129-5.atln.grid.net [207.205.129.5]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05292; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:03:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811171803.NAA05292@camel7.mindspring.com> From: "Karlene" To: , "Andy Shapiro" Cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:massive wood heaters and passive solar Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:04:35 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4986 What's an "air floor"? Karlene Bell > . An active heat storage (such as a rock bin or room full of > closed water containers or air floor charged by a fan moving warm air from > the house) could take this extra heat > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 13:11:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27382 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:11:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23800; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:56:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:52:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23261 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:52:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from seahorse.epud.net (root@seahorse.epud.net [205.240.25.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23246 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:52:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([209.102.14.168]) by seahorse.epud.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA08120 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:02:51 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199811171802.KAA08120@seahorse.epud.net> From: "Dean Still" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:massive wood heaters and passive solar Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 10:11:46 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4987 Dear John Straube, Thanks for the comments. I agree that a good masonry stove has the advantage of being able to fire really hot for hours without heating up the room. Hot burns equal cleaner burns. The mass moderates heat delivery. Great! The air to air heat exchanger type stove has to burn a lot less fuel equally as hot and do so until the room mass is warm, without overheating the air, which then allows the occupants to coast until the heat is lost to the great outdoors. That's what's so great about pellet stoves, very hot burns, low emmisions and metered feeding. Metering the fuel is very important in low mass stoves for clean burns. Of course, a small fan can really help to burn smaller amounts of wood very cleanly as well. ( Preheating the primary air can do wonders!) Fire brick inside the metal combustion chamber allows for very high burn temps. while protecting the stove body. So, regulating the amount of wood burned can even out heat delivery without depending on mass to moderate temp. rise and fall. Both masonry and low mass stoves can do well. The amazing problem is that most low mass stoves do not include a big heat exchanger. Without it, a lot of heat just shoots up the chimney! Heat exchangers are easy to make... Sorry for being unclear about the solar stuff. You write that at an assumed 10 degree temperature rise in a 3" thick cement slab inside a house each sf absorbs/releases 1425 btu's. My problem is that in tests we cannot see the slab ever storing this much energy or rising so much in temperature. Perhaps you could help criticise my understanding of the heating process? I think that the sunlight hits the black surface of the slab and is largely absorbed and reemitted as infrared energy. The black paint gets hot and starts to loose energy in all directions, into the slab, into the air, etc. Only a proportion of the total sunlight btu's contacting the slab are contained within it by day's end because most of it has radiated and convected away into the room as well as entering into the cement. Also while the top is warmer the bottom of the slab is not. Using the info from the pyranometers we figured that of the total sunlight btu's contacting the outside of the window per sf, about 17% ended up in the internal thermal slab by days end. The slabs that weren't directly exposed to sunlight didn't seem to store any appreciable amount of stored solar heat. Best regards, Dean Still ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 14:57:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA29684 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:57:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02539; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:42:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:38:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA02004 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:37:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01889 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:36:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.88]) by donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id OAA02423; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:48:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with SMTP id OAA01119; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:48:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:48:47 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@seawolf.rs.itd.umich.edu Reply-To: Peter Reppe To: John Salmen cc: "David M. Foley" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: CO2 sinks In-Reply-To: <365198D7.EE6390AE@cow-net.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4988 On Tue, 17 Nov 1998, John Salmen wrote: > Though there are some (very old) wood structures around by and large most have > been replaced numerous times for the life of a concrete wall. The net loss of > wood through rotting and burning is a co2 release. I'd just like to add my five cents: The CO2 released from rotting or burning of biomass (e.g., trees, straw) is not a concern for global warming because it releases CO2 that has been absorbed relatively "recently". Only fossil fuel-related emissions really matter because they release CO2 that was bound when the global atmosphere reached its balance (which we seem to be disturbing seriously now). Thanks, Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greening-of-Dana homepage http://www.snre.umich.edu/greendana/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Reppe e-mail: reppe@umich.edu National Pollution Prevention Center phone : 734-936-2535 University of Michigan fax : 734-647-5841 430 E. University Ann Arbor, MI http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub 48109-1115 U.S.A. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reppe -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 15:48:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01029 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:48:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06207; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:33:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:29:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05780 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:29:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05775 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:29:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.102.1]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA1832 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:44:48 +0000 Message-ID: <3651DFA6.B4908008@which.net> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:42:14 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Mass X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4989 Building a lot of mass for thermal buffering into a house ties the occupants and subsequent occupants into a "keep the house warm all the time" scenario even though they may be out of the house for most of the time, working and partying, or asleep. Heating the house during these periods by other than direct solar must be, environmentally, a bad thing. The most fuel efficient method must be to heat only when needed. This requires a quick response time, ie minimal mass within the living area. Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 16:01:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA01280 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:01:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA07200; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:47:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:43:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06813 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:42:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06786 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:42:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (chtw01-2-4.pei.sympatico.ca [207.34.30.20]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA02594 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 15:55:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3651E509.1E7E@pei.sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 17:05:13 -0400 From: Phil Ferraro Reply-To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Straw bale/Slip form References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4990 After reading several books on straw bale construction and one nearly disasterous attempt at hand stucco with and without wire netting I came upon the idea of combining straw bale construction with slip form contruction. Bales can be placed inside the forms with the cement poured between the bales and the forms. I suspect about 2" on the interior would give plenty of strength and ease of workspace. The outside wals could be the same or wider (6") to accomodate stone facing. Has anyone out there tried this? I can't wait for spring to give it a try. -- Phil Ferraro, Institute for Bioregional Studies 393 University Avenue, Suite 126 Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island Canada C1A 4N4 Phone: (902) 368-2005 Fax: (902) 368-2520 (phone first) Email: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 16:28:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA01834 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:28:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09181; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:13:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:09:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA08467 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:09:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from wakko.efn.org (root@wakko.efn.org [206.163.176.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08417 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:08:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip433.efn.org [206.163.181.177]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA15640 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:21:23 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: Subject: GBlist: slideshows Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:22:04 -0800 Message-ID: <01be1267$f0c92c80$aab5a3ce@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003C_01BE1224.E2A5EC80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4991 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BE1224.E2A5EC80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'll be doing my slideshow called "Natural Building and Social Justice" = in the following places in the following days: Bend, Oregon Tuesday, November 17, 7:00 Central Oregon Environmental Center 16 Kansas St, Bend 541-385-6908 Moscow, Idaho Wednesday, November 18, 7:00 It's going to be somewhere on the University of Idaho campus Contact Kurt Rathman for directions: rath9362@uidaho.edu Spokane, Washington Thursday, November 19, 6:30 Washington State Department of Ecology N.4601 Monroe st, Suite200, Spokane Contact Jim Wavada: 509-456-6349 Ellensburg, Washington Friday, november 20, 7:00ish This is a small, informal gathering being organized by Michael Burtness = who can be reached at 509-925-3553 Anyone interested in a description of my slideshow can visit my web site = at: www.efn.org/~robtb/ Please ignore the earlier slideshow schedule Hope to see you all there. Robert Bolman ------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BE1224.E2A5EC80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'll be doing my slideshow called = "Natural=20 Building and Social Justice" in the following places in the = following=20 days:
 
Bend, Oregon
Tuesday, November 17, = 7:00
Central Oregon Environmental = Center
16 Kansas St, Bend
541-385-6908
 
Moscow, Idaho
Wednesday, November 18, = 7:00
It's going to be somewhere on the = University of=20 Idaho campus
Contact Kurt Rathman for directions: = rath9362@uidaho.edu
 
Spokane, Washington
Thursday, November 19, = 6:30
Washington State Department of=20 Ecology
N.4601 Monroe st, Suite200, = Spokane
Contact Jim Wavada: =20 509-456-6349
 
Ellensburg, Washington
Friday, november 20, = 7:00ish
This is a small, informal gathering = being=20 organized by Michael Burtness who can be reached at = 509-925-3553
 
Anyone interested in a description = of my=20 slideshow can visit my web site at: www.efn.org/~robtb/  &n= bsp;=20 Please ignore the earlier slideshow schedule
 
Hope to see you all = there.
 
Robert = Bolman
------=_NextPart_000_003C_01BE1224.E2A5EC80-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 18:53:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04440 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:53:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17686; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:38:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:34:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA17407 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:34:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17400 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:34:00 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DUAWBE8N; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:39:37 EST To: corson@chebucto.ns.ca Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 16:55:39 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: homeowner's manual Message-ID: <19981117.174016.-120743.9.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-18,20-53 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4992 The Homeowner's Manual Published by National Realty Marketing 4241 Southmoor Park Lexington, KY 40514 They sold us a 1/4 page ad in their 1997 issue. I didn't keep their telephone number. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7147 http://www.sbtdesigns.com www.artistmall.com On Tue, 17 Nov 1998 12:06:44 -0400 (AST) Jennifer Corson writes: >Hello, > >Another request. A non-renovator/builder friend of mine asked if >there >was such a thing as a manual/software/anything available to assist a >homeowner to know what to check, clean, replace on an monthly basis >around >the home. We are on the eastern seaboard on the 45 deg. lat. >location. >Does anyone know of a good source for this type of information? Most >buildings around here are woodframe. > >Any thoughts would be appreciated. > >Jennifer Corson >*************************** >at Solterre Design, PO Box 36032, Halifax, Nova Scotia B3J 3S9 >at The Renovator's ReSource Inc., 5249 Smith Street, Halifax, NS, B3H >1M3 >at Pick and Shovel Productions, Ste. 404, 1657 Barrington St, Halifax > >Phone (902) 492-1215, Fax (902) 425-6795 >E-Mail: corson@chebucto.ns.ca >*************************** > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 21:17:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06274 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 21:17:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA25452; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 21:03:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:59:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA25124 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:59:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA25115 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:59:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.143] (usr0a15.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.143]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA16193; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 21:11:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 21:11:51 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: CN , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: metal rooofing for rainwater harvesting Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4993 I am skeptical of this claim that galvanized steel coatings may contain up to 5% lead and would be interested in your source for this information. I have looked into zinc coatings fairly carefully in the past and not come across such data. Thanks, Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News http://www.ebuild.com 800/861-0954 At 11:50 AM -0500 11/17/98, Chris Neurath wrote: >I have recently looked into the issue of lead contamination in galvanized >coatings of steel. Galvanizing is a surface coating of zinc applied to >steel. Apparently, most zinc is contaminated with a certain amount of >lead. Not too surprising since geologically the two metals are often found >together and many mines obtain both metals from their ores. > >I was comparing the amount of lead in galvanized steel electrical conduit, >in comparison to the amount of lead found in PVC plastic electrical >conduit. Lead (and cadmium too, also a toxic metal) are added to many PVC >items. It turned out that the total mass of lead in both types of conduit >might actually be similar. PVC has as much as 5% by weight of lead added, >and I think the zinc can also contain up to 5% lead. 5% is a lot more lead >than is allowed in paints these days. Presumably, the galvanized coatings >and the PVC don't flake or turn to dust over time so the lead is less >available to people and the environment. However, if a galvanized metal >roof was used for potable water collection, it might be a consideration. >If the galvanized roof had a layer of paint over the zinc (and lead) then >that might seal off the lead. > >I don't believe lead levels in recycled (or "virgin") steel itself are >anywhere near as high as 5%. > >It would be easy enough to test for lead in water collected from steel roofs. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 22:33:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07509 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:33:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29829; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:18:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:14:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28801 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:13:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28790 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:13:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-24-171.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.171]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA24548; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:26:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:32:00 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE127A.17CEEE20.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'malcolm.scott@which.net'" , Greenbuilding Subject: RE: GBlist: Mass Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 21:59:03 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4994 While what you say makes a lot of sense, it is not always true. For example, for a cottage light weight structures are the most energy efficient approach. But simulation after simulation and field energy monitoring after field monitoring has shown that thermal mass in a normal home or office does save energy. The scenario of the yuppie family that leaves for work at 7 am and returns at 5 or 6 pm for example has been extensively studied and found to still favour mass by a wide margin. Now the use of a masonry stove may not make sense, but a solar exposed concrete slab still does. Savings in lightweight buildings can be had with a sophisticated computerized thermostat that accounts for the occupants schedules, but the same thermostat can be used for a massive house to offset thermal lag. On Tuesday, November 17, 1998 3:42 PM, malcolm.scott@which.net [SMTP:malcolm.scott@which.net] wrote: > Building a lot of mass for thermal buffering into a house ties the > occupants and subsequent occupants into a "keep the house warm all the > time" scenario even though they may be out of the house for most of the > > time, working and partying, or asleep. Heating the house during these > periods by other than direct solar must be, environmentally, a bad > thing. The most fuel efficient method must be to heat only when > needed. This requires a quick response time, ie minimal mass within the > living area. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 22:33:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07516 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:33:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29823; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:18:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:14:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28800 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:13:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28780 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-24-171.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.171]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA24424; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:31:47 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE127A.10156420.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Jorg D. Ostrowski'" Cc: John Salmen , "'Jennifer Corson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: RE: stucco as CO2 sinks Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:10:40 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4995 On Tuesday, November 17, 1998 9:47 AM, Jorg D. Ostrowski [SMTP:jdo@ucalgary.ca] wrote: > John: Based on your note of below (especially: "all the CO2 released is > reabsorbed over time (less than 1 year for thin highly porous > products.."), stucco may promise some significant "CO2 Absorption" > characteristics, besides the regular sustainable advantages. Would anyone > agree and are there any references specific to stucco? Stucco is a classic example of a cement use that carbonates pretty quickly and will absorb significant CO2. But clearly, stucco will remain a net CO2 producer, just not as bad as simple analysis would show. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 22:33:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07511 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:33:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29831; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:18:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:13:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28791 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:13:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28779 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-24-171.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.171]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA24448; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:26:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:31:50 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE127A.11D16C00.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'John Salmen'" Cc: "'ashcreek@dreamscape.com'" , Greenbuilding Subject: RE: GBlist: Airtight Drywall Sheathing Approach Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 18:12:40 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4996 There are two brands I know of: 3M makes one and the other popular one here is Tuck Tape by the Canadian Technical Tape Company (thats all it says on my roll!) Check with CCMC who have approved the products for this use and CMHC which tested them for durability. On Tuesday, November 17, 1998 10:15 AM, John Salmen [SMTP:terrain@cow-net.com] wrote: > I have been trying to find supply of extra wide vapour tape (4") that I > thought was being made for commonly used for ASA (to tape sheathing). Does > anyone have a manuf. name as it does not appear in any of the common manuf. > catalogs. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 22:33:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07515 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:33:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29819; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:18:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:14:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28818 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:13:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28813 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:13:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-24-171.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.171]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA24586; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:26:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:32:08 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE127A.1C4BEAC0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Straw bale/Slip form Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:04:09 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4997 On Tuesday, November 17, 1998 4:05 PM, Phil Ferraro [SMTP:adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca] wrote: > Bales can be placed inside the forms with the cement poured between the > bales and the forms. I suspect about 2" on the interior would give > plenty of strength and ease of workspace. The outside wals could be the > same or wider (6") to accomodate stone facing. > Has anyone out there tried this? I can't wait for spring to give it a > try. While it might work, there are a few real concerns: the lack of vapour permeability of the skins might be disastorous if water leaked in through the windows (which it often does). one of the appeals of SB is its environmental impact (or lack thereof). The biggest problem is the 1" stucco that is used. Increasing this to 2+" will only further erode the eco-sensitivity of this wonderful building approach. OTH, if you want slipform, SB within sure will result in a much better insulated structure, just make sure the straw can dry or ensure it never gets wet ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 23:07:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07965 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:07:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01885; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:52:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:49:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01419 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:48:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01415 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:48:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.72]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3533800 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:01:46 -0800 Message-ID: <3652463A.3BAFCAE8@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:59:54 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" CC: "'ashcreek@dreamscape.com'" , Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Airtight Drywall Sheathing Approach References: <01BE127A.11D16C00.jfstraube@golden.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4998 Neither of those brands have a wide width available. Covering studs requires two laps (a waste and a tangle) I know there is a wide brand out there. Will let you know when I finid it. thanks John John Straube wrote: > There are two brands I know of: 3M makes one and the other popular one here > is Tuck Tape by the Canadian Technical Tape Company (thats all it says on > my roll!) Check with CCMC who have approved the products for this use and > CMHC which tested them for durability. > > On Tuesday, November 17, 1998 10:15 AM, John Salmen > [SMTP:terrain@cow-net.com] wrote: > > I have been trying to find supply of extra wide vapour tape (4") that I > > thought was being made for commonly used for ASA (to tape sheathing). > Does > > anyone have a manuf. name as it does not appear in any of the common > manuf. > > catalogs. > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube > Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group > 165 Albert St University of Waterloo > Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. > Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 > Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 > Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 23:08:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08010 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:08:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01978; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:53:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:50:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01615 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:50:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01609 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:50:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.137.73.120] (henyusr0-a56.herd.tds.net [208.137.73.120]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA13020; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:03:09 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:05:11 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: Re: GBlist: metal rooofing for rainwater harvesting/lead in galvanized metal Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 4999 >I am skeptical of this claim that galvanized steel coatings may contain up >to 5% lead and would be interested in your source for this information. I >have looked into zinc coatings fairly carefully in the past and not come >across such data. Thanks, > >Alex Wilson, Editor >Environmental Building News >http://www.ebuild.com >800/861-0954 Alex, I'm glad you and others are out there to keep us all honest. You're right. When I looked up the reference it was 0.5%, not 5% lead. The reference is the "Kirk-Othmer Encyclopedia of Chemical Technology, 4th ed., editted by Jacqueline Kroshwitz and Mary Howe-Grant,Wiley-Interscience 1992." On page 263 of volume 16 it says: "Galvanized steel coatings contain globules of lead, forced to the surface during zinc crystallization. The lead is an impurity in the zinc, usually at <0.5%. Lead does not form an alloy with zinc so it segregates upon cooling." I may have gotten the decimal point off because I was confusing it with PVC. A reference concerning lead in PVC says wire insulation has up to 5% lead salts added to the PVC: "Lead compounds may be employed in the ... manufacture of polyvinyl chloride (PVC) plastics (in which 2%-5% lead salts are used as stabilizers.) Although environmental regulation has reduced considerably the amount of lead used in the United States in the manufacture of PVC plastics, manufacturers of electrical wire and cable continue to produce PVC stabilized and/or pigmented with lead compounds." This was in "Lead Intoxication Associated with Chewing Plastic Wire Coating -- Ohio, in Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, published by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, vol. 42, p. 466, 1993." Greenpeace recently released a report about lead and cadmium in children's toys and clothing. Admittedly toys are not building materials, but if manufacturers are still legally adding large amounts of lead to PVC toys, then it would not be too surprising to find that lead is also still added to many building materials. Greenpeace found up to 2% lead in items they tested and about half the toys were many times more than the 0.06% lead limit allowed in paints. There apparently is no law limiting lead in PVC consumer products, even though it has been shown that the lead is available in the form of dust on the surface or can be released if the items are chewed or swallowed. Lead in PVC was first discovered to be a problem in vinyl (PVC) mini-blinds a few years ago. Yet no laws or regulations were passed prohibiting or limiting it's use. The legal limit of 0.06% for lead in paint brings me back to galvanized coatings. They apparently contain up to 0.5% lead, which is about 10 times more than legally allowed in paint. Furthermore, the lead is not alloyed with the zinc so it may be fairly easily transferred to hands, or converted into dust much like paint. >From what I presently know, I believe galvanized steel electrical conduit is "greener" than PVC conduit. However, I am careful to wash my hands after working with it, and would keep in mind potential lead exposures when building with galvanized steel. Just as a folksy anecdote about the hazards of galvanized metal: I was talking to a local bait shop owner about his use of Rubbermaid polyethylene stock tanks to raise bait fish. I have used such a tank as a spring water collection tank for watering my garden. The shop owner said the fish had no problems in the plastic tanks, but before he settled on the polyethylene he had tried galvanized steel stock tanks. All the bait fish always died very quickly in the galvanized tanks. Perhaps it's the zinc that killed the fish, but maybe the lead contributed some toxicity too. Another little finger pointing to toxicity of galvanized steel is from producing maple syrup. A few years ago the State of Vermont found high levels of lead in maple syrup. Much higher levels than is allowed in drinking water. I don't think they did anything about it because they said most people don't consume much maple syrup per year. (But I know families in maple country that go through many gallons a year). Anyway, they theorized that the lead could have come from several places. One was lead solder used to make evaporating pans. The pans themselves are tin plated or stainless steel. The other possible source was galvanized buckets or galvanized stock tanks which are commonly used to collect and store sap before it is boiled down to syrup. So now even maple syrup is "tainted". Is there anything left that is pure? Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 23:15:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08173 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:15:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02475; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:01:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:57:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA02121 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:57:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02116 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 22:57:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.72]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3537100 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:10:06 -0800 Message-ID: <36524828.28E821A@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:08:08 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Airtight Drywall Sheathing Approach References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5000 David had a source that I located at http://www.efi.org/products/weather/weather.html for a 4" tape. EFI's prices seem high for the products I'm familiar with. Its not a 3m product though I'm assuming it is a similar product. I'll order some and give it a try. Thanks David. John David M. Foley wrote: > John, > > A vapor tape called "Gap Wrap" is available from Energy Federation > Incorporated, Natick, Massachusetts USA, telephone 508-653-4299. > > Cheers. > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 23:19:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08207 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:19:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02717; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:04:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:00:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02417 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:00:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from coke.housing.qld.gov.au (firewall-user@coke.housing.qld.gov.au [203.63.159.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02401 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:00:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by coke.housing.qld.gov.au; id OAA04927; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 14:13:19 +1000 (EST) Received: from ash.prod.housing.qld.gov.au(161.143.128.3) by coke.housing.qld.gov.au via smap (4.0a) id xma004892; Wed, 18 Nov 98 14:12:35 +1000 Received: from sv20messaging.corporate.pwh.qld.gov.au (sv20messaging.corporate.pwh.qld.gov.au [147.132.211.9]) by ash.prod.housing.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA27100 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 14:12:30 +1000 (EST) Received: by sv20messaging.corporate.pwh.qld.gov.au with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id <4BPSAZSH>; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 14:12:22 +1000 Message-ID: <2131677BF5DFD111B88D00805FAD3C6F9482C6@sv20messaging.corporate.pwh.qld.gov.au> From: GREENAWAY Chris J To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Thermal Mass Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 14:12:19 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5001 John Straube You recently wrote: "But simulation after simulation and field energy > monitoring after field monitoring has shown that thermal mass in a normal > home or office does save energy." > Is the field data readily available? Here in Queensland, Australia we're still wrestling with the pros and cons of incorporating thermal mass. The state has a wide range of climatic conditions from arid through to tropical so creating generic public policy is a tad difficult. Can you or anyone else direct me to some real data rather than the profusion of theory? Chris Greenaway Built Environment Research Unit Dept Public Works Brisbane Queensland Australia greenawaycj@corporate.pwh.qld.gov.au ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 23:23:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08286 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:23:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03035; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:09:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:05:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02785 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:05:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02780 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:05:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA29757; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:18:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA03237; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:18:50 -0500 Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:18:50 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com Reply-To: Renewable News Network To: "malcolm.scott@which.net" Cc: Greenbuilding , "Ross M. Donald" Subject: Re: GBlist: Mass In-Reply-To: <3651DFA6.B4908008@which.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5002 Dear Malcolm, Just a few thoughts. The design and operation of any living space will depend on the design intensions. For instance, one could produce a house with higher than average inside mass, and yet have a quick thermal response time, if desired. The wall and ceiling surfaces would have to be made refective and/or have a layer of lighter mass. A "keep the house warm all the time" scenario would not necessarily be undesirable, although I'd put a more positive spin on it, by describing such a house as having a good thermal flywheel effect, or having good solar carry-through capacity, due to an appropriate amount of thermal mass coupled to the solar input. Heating homes by direct solar gain, of course, is the best. Mass softens the temperature flux and extends that gain after sunset, creating a time lag and an indirect solar gain, in effect. You're certainly right in how you are characterizing "the most fuel efficient method," but non-fuel, e.g. solar, methods have their own natural logic. Yours truly, Ross On Tue, 17 Nov 1998, malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: > Building a lot of mass for thermal buffering into a house ties the > occupants and subsequent occupants into a "keep the house warm all the > time" scenario even though they may be out of the house for most of the > time, working and partying, or asleep. Heating the house during these > periods by other than direct solar must be, environmentally, a bad > thing. The most fuel efficient method must be to heat only when > needed. This requires a quick response time, ie minimal mass within the > living area. > Malcolm Scott > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > Please, add to your mailing list, and send newsletters, press releases, announcements, and notices of events to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 For edited news you can RE-use, send "subscribe er-list" for the "Environmental Review" and/or "subscribe solar_utilities" for info on Solar Utilities, to: . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 23:28:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08348 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:28:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03410; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:14:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:10:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA03170 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:10:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA03164 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:10:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.75]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3542900 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:23:09 -0800 Message-ID: <36524B31.695209E1@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:21:05 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "malcolm.scott@which.net" CC: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Mass References: <3651DFA6.B4908008@which.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5003 The only concern I see here is might be the cost factor of additional mass but I would still think its a good idea (maybe the original occupants lose their job, grow old and retire, sell and move to less mobile people). If the insulation is sufficient there would not be any significant (walk in the door) temp difference than a less mass building and there could still be residual gain over the well heated time of occupation or from any solar or pet activity in the interim. If the type of heating takes air temperature into consideration, rather than be dependent upon slow heating of mass then there would be no loss of comfort. Even a radiant system designed for rapid recovery (close loops and higher temp) could work in such a scenario. I've warned clients as to the recovery involved in radiant and the problems in my particular climate of rapid change in climate leading to discomfort but its an issue of type of heating not type of building. John malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: > Building a lot of mass for thermal buffering into a house ties the > occupants and subsequent occupants into a "keep the house warm all the > time" scenario even though they may be out of the house for most of the > > time, working and partying, or asleep. Heating the house during these > periods by other than direct solar must be, environmentally, a bad > thing. The most fuel efficient method must be to heat only when > needed. This requires a quick response time, ie minimal mass within the > > living area. > Malcolm Scott > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 23:36:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08437 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03971; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:22:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:18:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA03560 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:18:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA03555 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:18:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.75]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3545500 ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:31:40 -0800 Message-ID: <36524D2B.3B39FCDA@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 20:29:31 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "malcolm.scott@which.net" , Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Mass References: <3651DFA6.B4908008@which.net> <36524B31.695209E1@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5004 I wanted to add another consideration here (other than pet activity) and that is retaining and storing heat produced from the myriad of appliances and electronics that seem to occupy our living spaces to greater purpose than we do. On the down side of this was an article I just read on a project in Sweden on housing designed for no accessory heating. They considered standard mass (drywall, etc.) sufficient to make practical use of residual energy (people, lights, appliances, pets, etc.) I think cost and building system is the deciding factor here. If the building system and orientation does not utilize mass to any other benefit than adding it for potentially minimal additional heating effect seems questionable. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 17 23:58:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA08784 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:58:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04977; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:43:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:39:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA04664 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:39:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA04660 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:39:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from galaxian.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@galaxian.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.92]) by donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id XAA06478; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:52:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by galaxian.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with SMTP id XAA13141; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:52:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 23:52:34 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@galaxian.rs.itd.umich.edu To: Greenbuilding List cc: Kurt Brandle , Susan Monroe Subject: GBlist: Green Architecture Curriculum Now Online Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5005 Can architecture professors help their students "become critical of the upstream and downstream effects of building design, construction, use, and disposal"? That is the goal of the latest publication from the University of Michigan's National Pollution Prevention Center for Higher Education. It is now available FREE OF CHARGE on our website. www.umich.edu/~nppcpub/resources/compendia/architecture.html "Recycling and Reuse of Building Materials," by Kurt Rathman, addresses "the problems of scarcity, costly extraction, and increased regulatory provisions associated with unsustainable natural resource consumption and waste disposal." This lengthy (100pp+), richly illustrated document is designed for use as a coursepack or supplemental reading for architecture courses at the undergraduate and graduate levels. It provides discussions, case studies, and exercises for each of the following topics: - waste prevention - construction and demolition (C&D) recycling - architectural reuse - design for materials recovery Also included are appendices, a bibliography of 100 related books and journals, and annotations of 30 of those publications. To view and print your own FREE copy, point your Web browser to: www.umich.edu/~nppcpub/resources/compendia/architecture.html All you need is Web access and a free program called Adobe Acrobat Reader -- if you don't already have it, just click on the yellow link on NPPC's "resources" page (www.umich.edu/~nppcpub/resources). If you do not have Web access, you may purchase the document from NPPC for $11 (to cover printing and mailing). "Reycling and Reuse" is the first completed module of our COMPENDIUM ON SUSTAINABLE ARCHITECTURE. The text of other modules, which introduce the concept and cover sustainable materials and sustainable design, is being made available on our website in "draft" format; look for the finished layouts as they become available. These materials were funded, in part, by the 3M Corporation, the Mott Foundation, and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's Pollution Prevention Division. We hope that they are very useful to you and your colleagues. If you like what you see, please spread the word! Sincerely, The Publications Department of the National Pollution Prevention Center for Higher Education 430 E. University Ave., Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1115 734/764-1412 * fax 647-5841 * nppc@umich.edu P.S. Have a suggestion on what could make our website more user-friendly? Let us know! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 08:11:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA13911 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:11:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA18404; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:48:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:43:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA18120 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:43:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA18116 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:43:43 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id CCRJa13872; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:56:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <41b55827.3652c3f3@aol.com> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:56:19 EST To: terrain@cow-net.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Gap wrap Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5006 >I have been trying to find supply of extra wide vapour tape (4") that I >thought was being made for commonly used for ASA (to tape sheathing). Does >anyone have a manuf. name Gap wrap Benjamin Obdyke, Inc 65 Steamboat Dr Warminster, PA 18974 215/672-7200 800/346-7655 BOI@concentric.net and on the web Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Inc. Contractors, Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 08:29:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA14084 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:29:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA19348; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:14:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:11:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA19103 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:10:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA19098 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:10:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id HAA0000031236; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:23:54 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981118132648.0075a554@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:26:48 -0600 To: CN , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: metal rooofing for rainwater harvesting/lead in galvanized metal Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5007 The discussion about the use of metal roofing for rainwater harvesting is useful. What is the difference between 'galvalume' and 'zincalume'? We've just received a bid for a standing seam roof made of the latter. Interested in using same for collecting rain. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 08:37:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA14165 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:37:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA19940; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:22:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:19:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA19526 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:18:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA19521 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:18:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id HAA0000011668; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:32:05 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981118133458.0096381c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:34:58 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: metal rooofing for rainwater harvesting/lead in galvanized metal Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5008 > >Just as a folksy anecdote about the hazards of galvanized metal: I was >talking to a local bait shop owner about his use of Rubbermaid polyethylene >stock tanks to raise bait fish. I have used such a tank as a spring water >collection tank for watering my garden. The shop owner said the fish had >no problems in the plastic tanks, but before he settled on the polyethylene >he had tried galvanized steel stock tanks. All the bait fish always died >very quickly in the galvanized tanks. Perhaps it's the zinc that killed >the fish, but maybe the lead contributed some toxicity too. Aren't all those horse and cattle tanks out in my part of the country galvanized? We used to swim in them when I visited here as a child. Ditto in Australia when our sons and I spent a couple months wandering around the Outback. The sight of a moving windmill in the distance sent us at high speed straight to it, to luxuriate in what for us, was the worlds most wonderful huge bath tub. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 08:59:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA14424 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:59:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21159; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:37:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:34:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20888 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:33:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20880 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:33:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA10246; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:46:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA10719; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:46:54 -0500 Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:46:54 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: John Salmen Cc: "malcolm.scott@which.net" , Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Mass In-Reply-To: <36524D2B.3B39FCDA@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5009 John, Can you reference the article, and/or tell us about the solar considerations? Intrinsic heat, as you suggest, is part of the baseline array of influences. The better house designers, I'd say, will look to incorprate the maximum practical insolation, for more than just "minimal additional heating effect." Mass follows. Yours truly, Ross On Tue, 17 Nov 1998, John Salmen wrote: > > > I wanted to add another consideration here (other than pet activity) and that is > retaining and storing heat produced from the myriad of appliances and > electronics that seem to occupy our living spaces to greater purpose than we do. > On the down side of this was an article I just read on a project in Sweden on > housing designed for no accessory heating. They considered standard mass > (drywall, etc.) sufficient to make practical use of residual energy (people, > lights, appliances, pets, etc.) > > I think cost and building system is the deciding factor here. If the building > system and orientation does not utilize mass to any other benefit than adding it > for potentially minimal additional heating effect seems questionable. > > John > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 08:59:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA14434 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:59:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21579; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:40:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:37:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21095 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:37:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21086 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:36:58 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ109161; Wed, 18 Nov 98 06:46:06 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA108660; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:47:26 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:47:26 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: John Straube Cc: John Salmen , "'Jennifer Corson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: stucco as CO2 sinks In-Reply-To: <01BE127A.10156420.jfstraube@golden.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5010 You said:"Stucco is a classic example of a cement use that carbonates pretty quickly and will absorb significant CO2. But clearly, stucco will remain a net CO2 producer, just not as bad as simple analysis would show. _____________________________________________________________________________ John: Thanks for the above. Who has Harry's e-mail address? I would like to check this out a bit more, because I would like to know if stucco can actually be a net REDUCER of CO2? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 09:42:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15515 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:42:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23826; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:23:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:18:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23461 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:18:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from buzz.slic.com (buzz.slic.com [206.25.233.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23456 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:18:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1292 invoked by uid 0); 18 Nov 1998 14:31:43 -0000 Received: from clayton-tty14.slic.com (HELO default) (206.150.84.126) by buzz.slic.com with SMTP; 18 Nov 1998 14:31:43 -0000 Message-ID: <002a01be12ff$e9af68e0$7e5496ce@default> From: "Tim McCarthy, Architect" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Mass Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:29:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5011 >While what you say makes a lot of sense, it is not always true. For >example, for a cottage light weight structures are the most energy >efficient approach. But simulation after simulation and field energy >monitoring after field monitoring has shown that thermal mass in a normal >home or office does save energy. The scenario of the yuppie family that >leaves for work at 7 am and returns at 5 or 6 pm for example has been >extensively studied and found to still favour mass by a wide margin. Now >the use of a masonry stove may not make sense, but a solar exposed concrete >slab still does. > >Savings in lightweight buildings can be had with a sophisticated >computerized thermostat that accounts for the occupants schedules, but the >same thermostat can be used for a massive house to offset thermal lag. Agreed, and when does a families schedule stay that ridgid? What about weekends?....vacations, days off, maternity leaves, What about the home office? What if grandma moves in? What about the 7 generations of families that live there after the first family? Tim McCarthy, Architect > >On Tuesday, November 17, 1998 3:42 PM, malcolm.scott@which.net >[SMTP:malcolm.scott@which.net] wrote: >> Building a lot of mass for thermal buffering into a house ties the >> occupants and subsequent occupants into a "keep the house warm all the >> time" scenario even though they may be out of the house for most of the >> >> time, working and partying, or asleep. Heating the house during these >> periods by other than direct solar must be, environmentally, a bad >> thing. The most fuel efficient method must be to heat only when >> needed. This requires a quick response time, ie minimal mass within the >> living area. > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >John Straube >Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group >165 Albert St University of Waterloo >Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. >Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 >Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 >Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 09:59:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15733 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:59:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24831; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:40:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:36:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24406 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24402 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:36:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.146]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3765300 ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:53:44 -0800 Message-ID: <3652DD9D.EB51D15D@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:45:49 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: John Straube , "'Jennifer Corson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: stucco as CO2 sinks References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5012 A traditional lime (slaked) or lime earth plaster would probably fit this description but unlike the cement based carbonates very slowly. There was some discussion of this and other merits of non cement stuccos on the SB list a year or so ago. John Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > You said:"Stucco is a classic example of a cement use that carbonates > pretty quickly and will absorb significant CO2. But clearly, stucco > will remain a net CO2 producer, just not as bad as simple analysis would show. > _____________________________________________________________________________ > John: Thanks for the above. Who has Harry's e-mail address? I would like > to check this out a bit more, because I would like to know if stucco can > actually be a net REDUCER of CO2? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 10:05:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15880 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:05:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25697; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:49:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:45:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25207 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:45:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25203 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:45:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.143]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3769400 ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:04:37 -0800 Message-ID: <3652E01C.C6C04CF0@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 06:56:28 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Airtight Drywall Sheathing Approach References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5013 The product that a few people mentioned 'Gap Wrap manufactured by Benjamin Obdyke, Inc has been discontinued by them and they have removed all product from distr. shelves. Problem of sales not exceeding shelf life. They have no immediate plans of marketing it again. There must be little interest in exterior systems that use sheathing as the barrier to sustain the need for wider tape. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 10:17:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16166 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:17:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26915; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:00:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:57:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26576 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:57:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26572 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:57:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.143]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3772400 ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:16:23 -0800 Message-ID: <3652E2E1.E56D7D78@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:08:17 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: CN , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: metal rooofing for rainwater harvesting/lead in galvanized metal References: <1.5.4.32.19981118132648.0075a554@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5014 Galvalume and zincalume are the same product under different manuf. licensing. The use of aluminum results in an aluminum oxide barrier protecting the steel. John David F. Lambertson wrote: > The discussion about the use of metal roofing for rainwater harvesting is > useful. What is the difference between 'galvalume' and 'zincalume'? We've > just received a bid for a standing seam roof made of the latter. Interested > in using same for collecting rain. Sacie Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 10:24:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16231 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:24:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27361; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:07:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:03:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27037 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:03:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from clover.sover.net (root@old-clover.sover.net [204.71.16.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27032 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:03:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by clover.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA18497; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:16:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.143] (pm1a1.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.97]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA28042; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:16:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:16:26 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: CN , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: metal rooofing for rainwater harvesting/lead in galvanized metal Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5015 At 11:05 PM -0500 11/17/98, CN wrote: >Another little finger pointing to toxicity of galvanized steel is from >producing maple syrup. A few years ago the State of Vermont found high >levels of lead in maple syrup. Much higher levels than is allowed in >drinking water. I don't think they did anything about it because they said >most people don't consume much maple syrup per year. (But I know families >in maple country that go through many gallons a year). Anyway, they >theorized that the lead could have come from several places. One was lead >solder used to make evaporating pans. The pans themselves are tin plated >or stainless steel. The other possible source was galvanized buckets or >galvanized stock tanks which are commonly used to collect and store sap >before it is boiled down to syrup. > >So now even maple syrup is "tainted". Is there anything left that is pure? > >Chris Neurath Being from Vermont, I have to comment on this. Lead has been a big issue, having given the state a lot of negative publicity a couple years ago regarding its maple syrup. I understand that there are quite stringent standards now in place to keep the lead out. In some cases it came from evaporators, but it can also come from the sap itself. A friend of mine, who is a very large producer (close to 1% of the state syrup crop) has a special, high-tech lead precipitator or filter to remove any lead, and his pans are certainly lead-free. Thanks for going back to your references on the lead content of galvanized coatings. I still suspect that even the 0.5% lead is much higher than reality today for _new_ galvanized steel. I don't know what would have killed the fish in the bait tanks--perhaps small quantities of copper in the coating? (Copper is highly toxic to most fish.) Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News Brattleboro, Vermont ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 10:40:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16866 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:40:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29017; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:23:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:20:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28369 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:19:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28363 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:19:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA25053; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:32:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA02362; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:32:46 -0500 Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:32:46 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: "Tim McCarthy, Architect" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, "Ross M. Donald" Subject: Re: GBlist: Mass (and glass) In-Reply-To: <002a01be12ff$e9af68e0$7e5496ce@default> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5016 On Wed, 18 Nov 1998, Tim McCarthy, Architect wrote: > > >While what you say makes a lot of sense, it is not always true. For > >example, for a cottage light weight structures are the most energy > >efficient approach. Don't these considerations depend on where we're going and what we must do to get there? The light weight house does little to help the architect and engineer to meet the design goals of the owner for natural light and free heat and hot water. If that's where we want to go, then effective solar aperature must increase, and properly located and specified mass must be designed in, as necessary. > >But simulation after simulation and field energy > >monitoring after field monitoring has shown that thermal mass in a normal > >home or office does save energy. The scenario of the yuppie family that > >leaves for work at 7 am and returns at 5 or 6 pm for example has been > >extensively studied and found to still favour mass by a wide margin. Now > >the use of a masonry stove may not make sense, but a solar exposed concrete > >slab still does. I'm glad to hear you identify this design scheme. You might add a tag to your messages so the world can beat a path to your door. Where is your practise? There are issues in getting the light to the mass most effectively, as well as collateral matters in movable insulation, the heat capacity of the mass, sizing, and so on. I still like a direct gain solar water wall, whenever possible. Its more foolproof. As for the solar exposed slabs, they are subject to "user variables," that is, the whims of the owners, who tend to put down rugs and furniture, as you know. > >Savings in lightweight buildings can be had with a sophisticated > >computerized thermostat that accounts for the occupants schedules, but the > >same thermostat can be used for a massive house to offset thermal lag. > > Agreed, and when does a families schedule stay that ridgid? What about > weekends?....vacations, days off, maternity leaves, What about the home > office? What if grandma moves in? What about the 7 generations of families > that live there after the first family? > > Tim McCarthy, Architect > > > > >On Tuesday, November 17, 1998 3:42 PM, malcolm.scott@which.net > >[SMTP:malcolm.scott@which.net] wrote: > >> Building a lot of mass for thermal buffering into a house ties the > >> occupants and subsequent occupants into a "keep the house warm all the > >> time" scenario even though they may be out of the house for most of the > >> time, working and partying, or asleep. Heating the house during these > >> periods by other than direct solar must be, environmentally, a bad > >> thing. The most fuel efficient method must be to heat only when > >> needed. This requires a quick response time, ie minimal mass within the > >> living area. > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > >John Straube > >Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group > >165 Albert St University of Waterloo > >Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. > >Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 > >Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 > >Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 > >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Add the following to your mailing list, for distribution of press releases, announcements, and notices of events: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 For edited news you can RE-use, send "subscribe er-list" for the "Environmental Review" and/or "subscribe solar_utilities" for info on Solar Utilities, to: . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 10:50:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17064 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:50:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29901; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:33:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:29:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29396 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:29:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29385; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:29:34 -0500 (EST) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id KPBKa03997; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:40:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <564d3fb.3652ea6e@aol.com> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:40:30 EST To: malcolm.scott@which.net, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Mass Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5017 In a message dated 11/17/98 8:44:22 PM, malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: <> It seems to me that we need to design different types of houses for different lifestyles. People who are away a lot may need backup of one of the more unsustainable sorts unless they are blessed with sunny winters. Or maybe they need to avoid the usual sorts of plumbing and let the sucker freeze if they aren't using it anyway. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 11:02:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17272 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 11:02:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01088; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:45:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:41:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00570 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:41:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (spc-van-3-Serial0-6.Sprint-Canada.Net [207.107.201.62] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00566 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:41:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.111]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3790200 ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 08:01:04 -0800 Message-ID: <3652ECC6.76308993@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 07:50:31 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Renewable News Network CC: "malcolm.scott@which.net" , Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Mass References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5018 Article by Hans Eek in Swedish Building Research (Swedish council for building research). Documented a project called 'Houses without heating' forming part of a contribution to CEPHEUS (Cost Effective Passive Housing for European Standards) a THERMIE program. Basic design intentions of the project described was to use exist technology (i.e. not a research project investigating new tech. or applications). Some basic criteria were - well insulated and air tight (.5 ach at neg. pressure of 50 Pa) ventilation at .5 (other projects went to .2 unoccupied .5 occupied) - mech air supply and counterflow heat exchange (90% effic.) - ground supplied air (project includes investigation of potential risk) Construction is wall -double stud with 35cm insul roof -masonite beams with 50cm insul floor- insulated slab 20cm insul wind. - triple glaze, two metallic coats, krypton fill energy recovery hot water - 3,000 kwh -of which solar heat 1,500 kwh heating load 125 kwh household elect - 2270 kwh elect for services 215 kwh total energy supply 4,610 kwh construction costs are being considered normal if one factors energy savings as part of financing costs. occupant heat is calculated as 4 person occupancy for 17hr/day average occupancy (sept-may) and 8.5 hr/day (june-august) producing an energy supply of 1182 kwh over the year (people generating 70-100 kwh) energy supply was further broken down storage of food 457 kwh/year with 100% return cooking - 568 kwh/year with 30% return washing up - 250 kwh/yr - 20% laundry - 271 kwh/yr - 20% drying - 350 kwh/yr - 100% lighting - 300 kwh'yr - 100% others - 574 kwh/yr - 100% total of 2770 kwh/yr Additional mass other than that of conventional plasterboard over light frame was not considered necessary as the building is less sensitive to exterior fluctuations (useful only to temper fluctuations of extreme cold snaps over long periods of time). Cost/design factor? That is the basic article of the swedish project. I'm sure more information on this project as well as one constructred in Germany are probably available from CEPHEUS http://www.passivehouse.com/ceph_kurz_e.htm John Renewable News Network wrote: > John, > > Can you reference the article, and/or tell us about the solar > considerations? Intrinsic heat, as you suggest, is part of the baseline > array of influences. The better house designers, I'd say, will look to > incorprate the maximum practical insolation, for more than just "minimal > additional heating effect." Mass follows. > > Yours truly, > Ross > > On Tue, 17 Nov 1998, John Salmen wrote: > > > > > > > I wanted to add another consideration here (other than pet activity) and that is > > retaining and storing heat produced from the myriad of appliances and > > electronics that seem to occupy our living spaces to greater purpose than we do. > > On the down side of this was an article I just read on a project in Sweden on > > housing designed for no accessory heating. They considered standard mass > > (drywall, etc.) sufficient to make practical use of residual energy (people, > > lights, appliances, pets, etc.) > > > > I think cost and building system is the deciding factor here. If the building > > system and orientation does not utilize mass to any other benefit than > adding it > > for potentially minimal additional heating effect seems questionable. > > > > John > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 11:02:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17286 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 11:02:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01251; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:47:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:43:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00711 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:43:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00696; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:43:01 -0500 (EST) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 8IJAa10204; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:54:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <60e82047.3652edbd@aol.com> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 10:54:37 EST To: alex@ebuild.com, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, cneurath@tds.net, greenbuilding@crest.org, kmatthew@birchdavis.com, birdsong@sccn.net, ElfinPDC1@aol.com, evamaria.haefele@mts.telecom.at, gcr@rhealiving.com, hemencb.ufcon@shands.ufl.edu, hillpple@sover.net, Kath.m@usa.net, willems@iafrica.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: metal rooofing for rainwater harvesting/lead in galvanized metal Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5019 In a message dated 11/18/98 3:18:11 PM, alex@ebuild.com wrote: <<>Another little finger pointing to toxicity of galvanized steel is from >producing maple syrup. A few years ago the State of Vermont found high >levels of lead in maple syrup. Much higher levels than is allowed in >drinking water. I don't think they did anything about it because they said >most people don't consume much maple syrup per year. (But I know families >in maple country that go through many gallons a year). Anyway, they >theorized that the lead could have come from several places. One was lead >solder used to make evaporating pans. The pans themselves are tin plated >or stainless steel. The other possible source was galvanized buckets or >galvanized stock tanks which are commonly used to collect and store sap >before it is boiled down to syrup.>> Most roofs are not designed to boil away 98 percent of the rain as it falls. Thus the concentration of lead in syrup, typically produced at a ratio of 40 sap: 1 syrup, is immaterial to the utility of roof water for drinking. The question is always: compared to what? Most tap water in North America, and generally worldwide, is more hazardous than ANY roof water, assuming a proper flush system that sets aside the first bit of run-off for irrigation, laundry, etc. I'd rather drink water with the tiny amount of lead it would pick up from galvanized surfaces than any clorinated water. Where Yuppie values and pockebooks prevail, a reverse osmosis pump can be used for the two quarts or so of water per capita that people ingest directly. Where the house is designed from scratch, I prefer a ferrocement roof overlain by sod, given that there is enough sun and load bearing capacity for this option. (Neither is the case in the building from which I write this email.) In soil, we expect that raising the pH to near 6.5 will reduce lead uptake to a tiny fraction of what would be absorbed by plants at a point lower. I suspect that this would also be true in water systems, though I'm happy to be corrected by someone with specific knowledge in this area. (It is the solution of lead in soil water that we are talking about when we talk about soil lead uptake.) Most folks would want a separate "sweetening" tank for drinking water as the 'softer' water is better for washing. By the way, we always design cisterns at ground level or on grade where they can be drained from the bottom. The sediment settles and this water is used for irrigation, stock watering, etc. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 12:50:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20552 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:50:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09506; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:33:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:29:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09048 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09039 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:29:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (1Cust154.tnt22.nyc3.da.uu.net [208.255.31.154]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA25942 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:42:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3653075B.C1D671BC@swinter.com> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:43:55 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: metal rooofing for rainwater harvesting/lead in galvanized metal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5020 Hello! What are some of the disadvantages of using rainwater collected from asphalt shingle roofs that would then be treated in a bioretention pond? What is the Best roof to use for collection? debra lombard deblombard@swinter.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 13:14:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA21231 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 13:14:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11239; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:59:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:55:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA10847 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:55:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10833; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:55:01 -0500 (EST) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.1) id PHVJa27879; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 11:01:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 11:01:13 EST To: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: metal rooofing for rainwater harvesting/lead in galvanized metal Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5021 In a message dated 11/18/98 1:33:31 PM, dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu wrote: <> Yes Stacie: We actually have a bath tub in our house made from one of those tanks. It is great for those of us who are huge to begin with. Dan Hemenway ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 16:24:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA26018 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:24:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA23476; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:08:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:04:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23081 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:04:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from clover.sover.net (root@old-clover.sover.net [204.71.16.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23075 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:04:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by clover.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA04218; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:17:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from Alisa (usr0a61.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.61]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA00881; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:17:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981118161812.00727244@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:18:12 -0500 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com, Greenbuilding From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: Airtight Drywall Approach In-Reply-To: <3650A7E8.1E9AFB30@dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5022 I have Been printing info you all sent me to on the ADA. It is amazing to me how information like this can get passed on. I wholeheartededly appreciate the help. This list is an amazing thing! Thanks to you all. Viva La Revolution! Danny Sagan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 18 17:07:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA26926 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 17:07:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA26080; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:52:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:48:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA25725 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:48:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc532.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.157]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25720 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 16:48:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from AE-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 17:03:44 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 17:03:24 -0500 From: "Arnie Katz" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, jabrams@vineyard.net Subject: Re: GBlist: affordable green developments and design standards Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA25721 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5023 Linda: I have been consulting with a 22-unit co-housing project just down the road from you in Durham, NC. Eno Commons is 100% sold out and about 50% built at this momemt. Your concerns--green development and construction principles and high levels of energy efficiency in a context of "affordability" have been their driving forces, and I think they have succeeded on all fronts. They've made some fascinating decisions, such as getting an architect-designed, flexible solar house with several variations and then going to a local production builder to realize the kinds of savings production builders understand. It's been a long, messy, frustrating process, llike most construction projects, but you should definitely talk to these folks. Contact is Sherri Zann Rosenthal at 919/688-6636. Linda Lloyd said: >I am working now on a green development south of Charlottesville ---- I would >like to keep things affordable and am trying to determine where to price the >lots --- need to make enough to insure that all phases of the development get >done --- and also am concerned that if prices are too low, people will buy the >lots, hold them until the demand goes up and homes are built then THEY will >flip them and make a good profit --- so how does one deal with that ?????? Arnie Katz Building Science Specialist Advanced Energy 909 Capability Drive Raleigh, NC 27606 919/857-9029 FAX: 919/832-2696 akatz@aec.ncsu.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 19 03:06:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA06798 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 03:06:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA26009; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 02:51:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Nov 1998 02:47:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA25682 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 02:47:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA25678 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 02:47:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 15571 invoked from network); 19 Nov 1998 08:00:35 -0000 Received: from userm857.uk.uudial.com (HELO ) (193.149.80.145) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 19 Nov 1998 08:00:35 -0000 Message-ID: <36533730.2FF1@dial.pipex.com> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 21:08:00 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Reply-To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: throwing stones in greenhouses Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5024 I thought the following article on the Buenos Aires meeting, from the Guardian newspaper (London & Manchester), would be of interest. Mark Bigland-Pritchard hyphen@dial.pipex.com Bristol, England From: The Guardian, Wednesday November18 1998, Society, p4 A shady trade A new financial market is born at the climate talks as multinationals start falling over each other to trade carbon quotas. Paul Brown reports from Buenos Aires Marathon talks which staggered through the night last week so that politicians could claim they had finally reached a deal on the Climate Change Convention have so far not made a jot of difference to the greenhouse effect. The amount of carbon dioxide being pumped into the atmosphere because of man's activities continues to rise at an alarming rate. The dire warnings from scientists and the economic and human cost of this year's extreme weather events seemed hardly to penetrate the paper-strewn halls of the Buenos Aires conference. Yet on the margins of the conference far more was happening than in the negotiations. Big industries once committed to destroying the climate talks were switching sides and forming new associations. Shell Oil, General Motors and Ford were just a few of thi big companies that joined a consortium to start carbon trading. Instead of working to prevent the Kyoto protocol being ratified by the US Senate, as they had previously done, they will be lobbying for the opposite. Amoco, the US oil company taken over by BP, announced it was pulling out of the Global Climate Coalition, the powerful industry lobby that has obstructed the negotiations for five years. Southern Company, the US's biggest utility and owner of South West Electricity, which has poured millions into the pockets of antitreaty lobbyists, announced it was to work “with the climate convention”. Suddenly the urge to make money has become the driving force behind action on climate change. The politicians are already being left behind. Among environmentalists and the developing world there is deep scepticism of the motives of these multinationals. But in order to gain carbon credits to buy and sell, these companies have first to have taken some action to help the climate. There are three systems being developed, the most promising being the “clean development mechanism”, which encourages new technology to be transferred to developing countries. Among the pilot projects that would quality are a hydro-power scheme in Bhutan being built by a Netherlands company. A notional 25,000 tonnes of carbon is being saved by building with alternative energy rather than burning fossil fuels. The resultant 25,000-tonne saving becomes a paper commodity that can be sold between countries at what the US government thinks will be around $20 a tonne. The United States is building a wind farm in Costa Rica which will provide 30,000 tonnes carbon saving over 30 years. That too become a commodity. The carbon credit will go to the country that has provided the technology, but currently the developing countries have no carbon dioxide targets so the credits are no good to them. The G77 groups of developing countries still point out they want nothing to do with targets. As they constantly emphasise, it was the developed world that caused the problem of climate change, and they must be responsible for sorting it out. However, they are rather keen on the idea of new and clean technology - leapfrogging over the dirty technologies of our own industrial revolution. None of this helps domestic targets and there was no sign that the Americans had the political will to do much about their own soaring carbon dioxide emissions. They simply want to trade their way out of it. But again there are signs that the big US car companies, BP and Shell, all of which were represented at senior level at Kyoto, were keen to invest in new technologies. If solar, wind and hybrid cars become commercial then the targets could begin to take care of themselves. But surprisingly it is the developing world that is also keen to show the way. India is already the world's third largest producer of wind energy. Argentina, host to the talks, broke with the developing world to say it was prepared to adopt a voluntary carbon reduction target. In another bright spot everyone agreed that the climate talks are and have been a mess from the word go. A new method of negotiating is being adopted. At the moment the absence of majority voting means that any one nation feeling cussed about any point can shout its objection at any time and halt progress. With 167 nations, split into a dozen groups, this happens frequently - hence the snail's pace. Only politicians doing deals in the middle of the night have saved the convention. Now this logjam is to be broken by a series of interim meetings with ministers authorised to make real decisions. The aim is to break down barriers and get agreements to be rubber-stamped by the annual conferences. The idea is to get rules and regulations for carbon trading on paper quickly - there are none at all at the moment. Target is toget the clean development mechanism working by April 2000. Everyone at Buenos Aires agreed it was a low point but out of the shambles there was some hope ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 19 05:47:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA07712 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 05:47:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA00139; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 05:32:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Nov 1998 05:27:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA29882 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 05:27:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA29878 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 05:27:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.99.73]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA13378 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:43:23 +0000 Message-ID: <3653E84B.1F2863C9@which.net> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:43:40 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: metal rooofing for rainwater harvesting/lead in galvanized metal X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5025 Not exhaustive research I know, but trying to breed tropical fish a few years ago, I placed a galvanized mesh in the tank to separate the fish from the eggs and one fish died the next day. The other survived for a while after I immediately removed it to another tank, but it had lost all its colour. I have no idea if it was the zinc, something in the zinc, or even flux residue from its manufacture. Malcolm Scott Alex wrote: Thanks for going back to your references on the lead content of galvanized coatings. I still suspect that even the 0.5% lead is much higher than reality today for new galvanized steel. I don't know what would have killed the fish in the bait tanks--perhaps small quantities of copper in the coating? (Copper is highly toxic to most fish.) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 19 07:01:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA08198 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 07:01:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA01800; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 06:47:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Nov 1998 06:42:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA01504 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 06:41:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA01500 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 06:41:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.100.207]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA18246; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:57:39 +0000 Message-ID: <365406E2.F06092BC@which.net> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:54:11 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Renewable News Network CC: Greenbuilding , "Ross M. Donald" Subject: Re: GBlist: Mass X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5026 Ross of Renewable News Network wrote: > The design and operation of any living space will depend on the > design intensions. For instance, one could produce a house with > higher > than average inside mass, and yet have a quick thermal response time, > if > desired. The wall and ceiling surfaces would have to be made > refective > and/or have a layer of lighter mass. I interpret this as "insulate the thermal mass from the living space". This is what I am saying I think. The thermal mass needs to isolated, solar heated only, and actively controlled. > A "keep the house warm all the time" scenario would not necessarily > be undesirable, although I'd put a more positive spin on it, by > describing such a house as having a good thermal flywheel effect, or > having good solar carry-through capacity, due to an appropriate amount > of > thermal mass coupled to the solar input. Yes and as such is only useful for 100% solar heating. My feeling is that unless you have sufficient mass to carry the temperature from one solar input to the next, you will waste an awful lot of fossil, wood or whatever fuel heating unecessary mass. eg if the house cools overnight and you want it warm for one hour the next morning, you probably have to start heating 2-3 hours before you need it just to get that mass up to temp.It is probably good for the house for it to be at a constant temp, since expansion and contraction through a large temp range must put stresses on various components. But obviously this needs to be done by solar alone. My leaning is towards active systems and was interested to hear of the new government building in Germany using solar to heat water in a large annual store 300 metres below ground, and cooling from a cold water store 30 metres below ground (I suspect these may be an old WW2 bunkers) Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 19 10:10:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10808 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:10:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10370; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:53:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:49:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10061 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:49:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10056 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 09:49:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA04983; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:02:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA03145; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:02:18 -0500 Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:02:18 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: throwing stones in greenhouses/news articles In-Reply-To: <36533730.2FF1@dial.pipex.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA10058 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5027 Dear Mark, Thanks for the info. I've been reading everything I can get my hands on re: implementation and deployment opportunitiee for cost-effective renewable solar energy in buildings (e.g. solar rooftops as an emerging technology). While there has been progress from Rio to Kyoto to Buenos Aires, finding incentives and supportive mechanisms for small scale practitioners, may be like looking for diamonds in a 100 year old landfill. Right now, the avalanche of information is overwhelming and continues to pile up, but that in itself may force matters. As it is, the mainstream media was covering the run up to Buenos Aires, but then Mitch blew into town (dramatic flood film footage! - but no connection to deforestation nor global climate change); and then, the Iraqi dust up dominated the news (tomahawk missiles and fighter jets taking off from aircraft carriers! - but no connection to the reason why are in the Persian Gulf to begin with - and certainly no thought of adding the billion$ in military defense of oil supplies to the costs of the environmental damage to the additional costs of global warming and then trying to acknowledge some rational renewable energy alternatives.) The only mass media (TV) coverage of Buenos Aires was a press conference held by Environmental Media Services aired on C-span; and now the major media pundits are going to be fixated on the Ken Starr show, for the remainder of the year. I'd like to hear from information source and resource managers that can digest, edit, and translate the diplomacy and politics into opportunities for builders and small businesses dealing in renewable solar energy goods and services. Here's a typical download of articles from one info source alone. If this is where your interests, talents, and capabilities are, let's see what can be culled out of all this palaver, that can actually lead to real change: * Climate negotiators reach deal on emissions cuts - ARGENTINA * U.S. hails "new spirit" at climate talks - USA * Analysis - tougher climate talks to follow Buenos aires - ARGENTINA * Britain sees grave climate problem, hails talks - ARGENTINA * Scientists say global warming killing coral reefs - ARGENTINA * EU agrees $200 mln for energy sector programmes - EU * Clinton will delay Senate action on Kyoto pact - USA * Japan mulls subsidy for fuel-efficient vehicles - JAPAN * US signs kyoto global-warming climate treaty - UNITED NATIONS * Germany wants aviation, shipping greenhouse curbs - ARGENTINA * Finnish IVO, Estonian Eesti energia to cut CO2 - FINLAND * China sets forest protection plan to end floods - CHINA * Interview - Shell eyeing India renewables market - INDIA * Home power plants could be next wave of the future - USA Go to Planet Ark to check out the full stories - http://www.planetark.org/ And that above was only the stuff related to Buenos Aires, from over thjis past weekend. Then, of course, there's the regular ongoing emergency disasters related to the continuing, never ending, business as usual oil spillage: * HK dolphins seen likely hit by China oil spill - CHINA * China disaster team contains oil slick - official - CHINA Yours truly, Ross "And so it goes" -Linda Ellerby On Wed, 18 Nov 1998, Mark Bigland-Pritchard wrote: > I thought the following article on the Buenos Aires meeting, from the > Guardian newspaper (London & Manchester), would be of interest. > > Mark Bigland-Pritchard > hyphen@dial.pipex.com > Bristol, England > > From: The Guardian, Wednesday November18 1998, Society, p4 > A shady trade > A new financial market is born at the climate talks as multinationals > start falling over each other to trade carbon quotas. > Paul Brown reports from Buenos Aires > > Marathon talks which staggered through the night last week so that > politicians could claim they had finally reached a deal on the Climate > Change Convention have so far not made a jot of difference to the > greenhouse effect. > > The amount of carbon dioxide being pumped into the atmosphere because of > man's activities continues to rise at an alarming rate. The dire > warnings from scientists and the economic and human cost of this year's > extreme weather events seemed hardly to penetrate the paper-strewn halls > of the Buenos Aires conference. > > Yet on the margins of the conference far more was happening than in the > negotiations. Big industries once committed to destroying the climate > talks were switching sides and forming new associations. > > Shell Oil, General Motors and Ford were just a few of thi big companies > that joined a consortium to start carbon trading. Instead of working to > prevent the Kyoto protocol being ratified by the US Senate, as they had > previously done, they will be lobbying for the opposite. > > Amoco, the US oil company taken over by BP, announced it was pulling out > of the Global Climate Coalition, the powerful industry lobby that has > obstructed the negotiations for five years. Southern Company, the US's > biggest utility and owner of South West Electricity, which has poured > millions into the pockets of antitreaty lobbyists, announced it was to > work “with the climate convention”. > > Suddenly the urge to make money has become the driving force behind > action on climate change. The politicians are already being left > behind. Among environmentalists and the developing world there is deep > scepticism of the motives of these multinationals. But in order to gain > carbon credits to buy and sell, these companies have first to have taken > some action to help the climate. There are three systems being > developed, the most promising being the “clean development mechanism”, > which encourages new technology to be transferred to developing > countries. > > Among the pilot projects that would quality are a hydro-power scheme in > Bhutan being built by a Netherlands company. A notional 25,000 tonnes > of carbon is being saved by building with alternative energy rather than > burning fossil fuels. The resultant 25,000-tonne saving becomes a paper > commodity that can be sold between countries at what the US government > thinks will be around $20 a tonne. > > The United States is building a wind farm in Costa Rica which will > provide 30,000 tonnes carbon saving over 30 years. That too become a > commodity. The carbon credit will go to the country that has provided > the technology, but currently the developing countries have no carbon > dioxide targets so the credits are no good to them. > > The G77 groups of developing countries still point out they want nothing > to do with targets. As they constantly emphasise, it was the developed > world that caused the problem of climate change, and they must be > responsible for sorting it out. However, they are rather keen on the > idea of new and clean technology - leapfrogging over the dirty > technologies of our own industrial revolution. > > None of this helps domestic targets and there was no sign that the > Americans had the political will to do much about their own soaring > carbon dioxide emissions. They simply want to trade their way out of > it. > But again there are signs that the big US car companies, BP and Shell, > all of which were represented at senior level at Kyoto, were keen to > invest in new technologies. If solar, wind and hybrid cars become > commercial then the targets could begin to take care of themselves. > But surprisingly it is the developing world that is also keen to show > the way. India is already the world's third largest producer of wind > energy. Argentina, host to the talks, broke with the developing world > to say it was prepared to adopt a voluntary carbon reduction target. > > In another bright spot everyone agreed that the climate talks are and > have been a mess from the word go. A new method of negotiating is being > adopted. At the moment the absence of majority voting means that any > one nation feeling cussed about any point can shout its objection at any > time and halt progress. With 167 nations, split into a dozen groups, > this happens frequently - hence the snail's pace. > > Only politicians doing deals in the middle of the night have saved the > convention. Now this logjam is to be broken by a series of interim > meetings with ministers authorised to make real decisions. The aim is > to break down barriers and get agreements to be rubber-stamped by the > annual conferences. The idea is to get rules and regulations for carbon > trading on paper quickly - there are none at all at the moment. > > Target is toget the clean development mechanism working by April 2000. > Everyone at Buenos Aires agreed it was a low point but out of the > shambles there was some hope > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > Please, add me to your mailing list, and send newsletters, press releases, announcements, and notices of events to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 For edited news you can RE-use, send "subscribe er-list" for the "Environmental Review" and/or "subscribe solar_utilities" for info on Solar Utilities, to: . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 19 10:38:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11415 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:38:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13073; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:23:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:19:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12631 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:19:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12627 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:19:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from uymfdlvk (dial-29-MAX-BTVT-06.ramp.together.net [208.13.204.29]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA00397 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:32:33 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981119103210.007d7d70@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:32:10 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re: Air floors In-Reply-To: <199811180314.WAA28899@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5028 At 10:14 PM 11/17/98 -0500, you wrote: >What's an "air floor"? >Karlene Bell > An air floor is a slab that is built over air passages through which hot air can be blown to store the heat for passive release through the floor and through the air passages, depending on design. These have been built using hollow core concrete block on their sides forming the passages, using stamped sheet metal forms that (at least used to be ) made for this purpose, and there must be other methods of which I am unaware. Plusses include utilizing a lot of mass with a lot of surface area for heat transfer from the air and the mass doesn't take up usable square feet ( although the house might have to be a few inches taller) -- The thing that worries me about them is that if water ever gets in, and dust certainly will get in, despite the (required) very good filtering of air going in, you have a warm, moist, dark space with food and water for critters to grow. So I haven't specified them. The argument can and has been made that the space can be kept dry, and I suppose if you could convince yourself that you could do that, an air floor can be a good strategy. In some climates with some building sites with approrpiate soil conditions and well-designed surfaces outside the building for rain runoff, moisture might not be a worry. But if you are like me and tend to wake up nights worrying about such things, I'd look for other ways to skin this cat. I prefer thermal storage systems where you can get to all surfaces to inspect, and if necessary clean them. Rock bins under slabs make me nervous for the same reasons. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 19 10:46:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11719 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:46:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13848; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:31:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:27:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13274 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:27:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13270 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:27:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from uymfdlvk (dial-29-MAX-BTVT-06.ramp.together.net [208.13.204.29]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA00916 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:45:04 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981119104145.007d8a70@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:41:45 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re: Examples of Sustainable Development/Affordable Housing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5029 I posted the following announcement on the list a few weeks ago: --------------------------------------------- The New Jersey Department of Community Affairs (DCA) has announced a Sustainable Development/Affordable Housing Pilot Program to promote sustainable development in the context of energy-efficient, affordable housing. This fall, DCA will solicit proposals from housing development teams to design and construct housing that meets a strict set of energy and environmental criteria, including Energy Star Home efficiency standards. Projects are expected to range from 5 to 50 units and can be for new development as well as reconstruction of existing buildings. Developers are encouraged to team up with consultants, planners, architects and builders with demonstrated experience in sustainable design. Proposals will be evaluated by a team of sustainable design experts. The program is partly supported by Public Service Electric and Gas (PSE&G) through their Energy Efficient Home 5-Star Program, which provides incentives which cover the typical incremental cost of meeting the 5-Star/EPA Energy-Star standard. The program is part of Governor Christine Todd Whitman's commitment to preserve the environment by fostering smart planning. A bidders' conference is being planned for early December, which will include at least one presentation on sustainable design, question and answer sessions and a chance for consultants, architects, planners, and others to connect with New Jersey housing developers. For full details and a copy of the RFP: Until October 28th, call 633-6303 at the DCA for information. After that date, contact Peggy Hutchet at the DCA at 609-633-6284. We are coming up soon to the Dec 8 bidders conference and we are working to turn what would normally be a Q&A session for developers into an educational experience. Muscoe Martin is going to speak on affordable/sustanable design and we are looking for more examples of such projects to highlight with a couple of slides -- the message being for the audience that, yes, this stuff is going on out there -- REQUEST: I would much appreciate any slides or other pictures folks can steer me to (or leads to same) of projects that we could show pictures of. Sustainable projects we have many of, affordable projects there are also many -- projects that attempt to do both would be great to find. It is clear that no projects meet all criteria, but priojects that tried in some way to address both is what we are looking for. Another message to the developers who attend will be just that -- no one project gets it ALL right -- the point is to (for these folks) start trying and get as far as we can in the right direction with this first project. >If folks have any suggestions on other lists to post this on, publications to send it to, etc., please e-mail me directly. Please also forward it to anyone you think might be interested. Many thanks. > >Andy Shapiro >Energy Balance, Inc. >Montpelier VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 19 11:13:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA12412 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:13:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15734; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:57:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:53:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15309 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:53:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15305 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:53:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA19135 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:06:17 -0600 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:03:51 -0600 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Eco-friendly antimicrobial paints? Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:03:50 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5030 Has anyone tried the product described below, and can you comment on it? Thanks in advance! - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com New non-toxic coating destroys viruses, bacteria, available in water, solvent-based formulations. Coatings, September 1997 p20 Abstract Glynson Industries of New York, NY, has a new family of biocidal paints called BNA, that are non-toxic, environmentally friendly and kills bacteria, fungi and viral agents. The paints were developed by Southwest Research Institute for the firm and are stable in storage, easy to apply, fast drying and economically competitive. BNA has a water-based formulation for interior use and a solvent-based version for either interior or exterior use. The paints are designed to provide an active and passive protective coating, and are intended for walls and floors of hospitals and other patient-care facilities. Here's a bit more info: The Southwest Research Institute, a nonprofit research and development organization, developed a lime-based paint designed to control microbial contamination. The biocidal lime system, which is made up of codependent mixture of lime and binder and also includes pigments, fillers and solutions as main components, sees possible applications in microbe-infected surfaces such as walls and floors of hospitals, nurseries, restaurants and kitchens. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 19 11:56:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13256 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:56:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18775; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:41:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:37:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18064 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:37:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18052 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:37:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.137.73.94] (henyusr0-a45.herd.tds.net [208.137.73.109]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA22254; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:50:16 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19981119015040.00698050@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:51:09 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: Re: GBlist: metal rooofing for rainwater harvesting/lead in galvanized metal Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5031 >Chris,-got an answer, both zincalume and galvalume are the same products but >with a different name and it sounds like lead is not a problem with either. >Sacie Lambertson I'd be interested in how it was determined that lead is not a problem. Does the manufacturer say that the products are tested for lead? Or does someone claim they are coated with paint which prevents any lead from getting out? Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 19 11:57:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13295 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:57:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18785; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:41:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:37:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18074 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:37:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18070 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:37:28 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@tds.net Received: from [208.137.73.94] (henyusr0-a45.herd.tds.net [208.137.73.109]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA22196; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 10:50:13 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:40:24 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: Re: GBlist: metal rooofing for rainwater harvesting/lead ingalvanized metal Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5032 Dan, I'll share this off-list exchange with the list as you suggested, and add a few more points: In a message dated 11/18/98 7:13:15 PM, you wrote: <> Well, my vague recollection was that lead in maple syrup was found to be more than 40 times higher than drinking water standards, so I don't think you should dismiss the question quite so quickly. Again, for my mind, the easy way to resolve the issue is to measure lead levels in cisterns where rain water is collected. Oh, and I haven't even tried to tread here yet, but when you bring up ferrocement, it does raise the question of lead in cement. A large proportion of cement kilns these days burn hazardous waste as fuel. My understanding is that the heating flame is in direct contact with the materials which become cement. A lot of hazardous waste has heavy metals in it and those heavy metals could conceivably be absorbed by the lime. Either that or they are emitted into the air to settle in the communities which "host" the cement kilns. The burning of hazardous waste in cement kilns is a loop hole in the US's hazardous waste laws, and it has been aggressively exploited by businesses wishing to avoid the high cost of hazardous waste disposal. Again, testing for lead is relatively cheap and accurate, and might be a good idea for almost any source of drinking water. Chris Neurath>> Good points, Chris: Too bad you didn't share them with the list. Much of the lead from maple syrup evaporators comes from the lead used to solder the channels together. I remember as I write this now that I questioned this around 1970 when I headed a youth farm project outside of Boston and we had to have some repairs done to the evaporator. I was told there was no risk, of course. I wonder how many people I inadvertently poisoned by selling them maple syrup from our organic farm. Well, I did manage to recommend reverse osmosis for drinking water, so I wasn't entirely off base, just mainly. thanks for taking the trouble to point out the error in my thinking. Dan Hemenway Dan, I agree that most lead from evaporators likely comes from the lead solder. Since I do my own maple syruping I've looked into this a little. I borrowed a small pan from a friend. It was stainless steel so I naively assumed the solder that sealed the seams would have been lead free. Later he told me it wasn't. So, in exchange for the use of the pan, I gave him all the syrup I made in it. Now I only use solid stainless steel pans, with no seams. I have a very small operation. I don't know when the commercial pan manufacturers switched to lead-free solder, but I'll bet there are a lot of syrup producers who are still using their older pans. Pans are very expensive. I also remember when the Vermont investigations were news, that the authorities claimed they had not pinpointed whether the lead came from the evaporators or from buckets and storage tanks. Galvanized buckets and sometimes storage tanks commonly use lead solder to seal the seams. The sap, which is slightly acidic, often sits in these containers for hours. Therefore, it is certainly possible that the lead came from these galvanized containers although it could be either from the lead solder or the galvanizing. Hope all this talk of maple syrup isn't too off-topic, and that it isn't making too many people start craving pancakes. Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 19 11:57:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13317 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:57:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18882; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:38:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18183 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:38:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18161 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 11:38:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.162] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:57:21 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco-friendly antimicrobial paints? Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:54:00 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1300656654-1491113@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5033 Patrick I found the following web pages that describe this paint. http://129.162.25.66/9what/releases/biocidal.htm This page identifies the biocide as a "precursor" to Chlorine Dioxide (ClO2). Does anyone know about this compound? http://129.162.25.66/9what/releases/biocide.htm This page gives more general information about the paint. Both pages are press releases from last year. Is the paint available? Bruce >Has anyone tried the product described below, and can you comment on it? >Thanks in advance! > >- Patrick Pierquet >ppierquet@teltech.com > > >New non-toxic coating destroys viruses, bacteria, available in water, >solvent-based formulations. >Coatings, September 1997 p20 ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 19 13:25:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15591 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:25:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24498; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:09:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:03:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23904 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:03:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.mailsrvcs.net (smtp2.gte.net [207.115.153.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23898 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:03:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust213.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.213]) by smtp2.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id MAA01174; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 12:16:25 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3654609C.7338@gte.net> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 13:17:00 -0500 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Shapiro CC: jminter@famu.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Examples of Sustainable Development/Affordable Housing References: <3.0.1.32.19981119104145.007d8a70@pop.together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5034 Andy, I posted your RFQ onto our website http://sustainable.state.fl.us Do you know if any FL teams put in bids? We've got lots of sustainable projects described on our website, often with good photos, but we haven't yet done much on affordable housing. It is, however, on the agenda for future coverage. You might want to take a look at the website of Andres Duany and Elizabeth Plater-Zyberk http://www.dpz.com. They design and plan new urbanist communities, both upscale and affordable. I recently heard about a new urbanist development in Florida City for migrant farm workers. Enviro-Tech out of San Antonio, TX, may be another good source. They do SIP construction and have recently launched a major foray into the affordable housing market. Home and Garden Network aired a segment on their construction that was quite impressive. $30 cooling bills during the month of 100 plus degree days in a 1500 sq ft house. Attic temp only 1 degree higher than house temp. They have nat'l agreements worked out with paint, appliance, carpet and other distributors to offer low prices on premium grade products. They're also working with the American Lung Association to make healthy homes. Johnnie Brown at Enviro-Tech is available at johnnie.b@juno.com or at 210-824-7100. Best, Cindy Pollock Shea Contributing Editor Florida Sustainable Communities Center http://sustainable.state.fl.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 19 17:41:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA22997 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:41:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA11425; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:25:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:21:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA11038 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:20:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.capecod.net (mailhost.capecod.net [204.255.214.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11034 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:20:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrbh (camb1040.capecod.net [209.244.250.24]) by mailhost.capecod.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id RAA24718 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 17:34:01 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981120053638.006ba684@capecod.net> X-Sender: bhammond@capecod.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 05:36:38 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Bruce Hammond Subject: GBlist: heating retrofit for passive solar house Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5035 To the Greenbuilding group, I recently purchased an 1,100 sq. foot Cape on the island of Martha's Vineyard. It was built in '82 and is designed to be passive solar (sliding glass doors across so. side w/ concrete slab/tile floor inside). I need to replace the electric heat and am searching for an affordable, efficient and pleasant solution. A central furnace/radiators is estimated to cost at least $6 K; the cheapest option is a Rinnai propane heater but I really don't find the blowing hot air comfortable. I am also looking into a propane cast iron stove, such as those made by Jotul, VT Castings, etc. Are there any other options I should look into? Thanks for your ideas! Bruce Hammond Islands Ecologist The Nature Conservancy The Wakeman Center RFD, Box 319-X Vineyard Haven, MA 02568 (508) 693-6287 (Voice) (508) 693-0683 (FAX) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 20 01:16:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA29649 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:16:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA29631; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:01:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:57:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA29213 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:56:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA29209 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 00:56:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip19.ivnet.net [206.101.73.179]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03402; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 21:00:25 -0800 Message-ID: <36550698.D16BDB19@ivnet.net> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:05:12 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Shapiro CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Air floors References: <3.0.1.32.19981119103210.007d7d70@pop.together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5036 Andy Shapiro wrote: > > At 10:14 PM 11/17/98 -0500, you wrote: > > >What's an "air floor"? > >Karlene Bell > > > An air floor is a slab that is built over air passages through which hot > air can be blown to store the heat for passive release through the floor > and through the air passages, depending on design. I heard of a school district in San Diego that had installed a rock bin system to heat (or at least augment the heating) of a building. Pretty mild climate. After it was installed they hired an outside consultant to analyse the project and tell them how much energy they were saving. The consultants poured over the whole project and determined that the whole system was costing them more energy to run than it was saving. The consultants determined that some savings in its operation could be found, by sizing the fans differently for example, but that overall it would never work. I believe the system was then scrapped out. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 20 01:20:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA29671 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:20:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA00099; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:05:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:01:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA29589 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:00:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA29581 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:00:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip19.ivnet.net [206.101.73.179]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03446; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 21:04:56 -0800 Message-ID: <365507A7.C7C4846F@ivnet.net> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:09:43 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Patrick Pierquet CC: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco-friendly antimicrobial paints? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5037 Patrick Pierquet wrote: > > Has anyone tried the product described below, and can you comment on it? > Glynson Industries of New York, NY, has a new family of biocidal paints > called BNA, that are non-toxic, environmentally friendly and kills bacteria, > fungi and viral agents. How can we call something that kills bacteria, fungi, and viruses on contact non-toxic? Bruce donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 20 01:56:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA29911 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:56:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA01346; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:40:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:36:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA01074 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:36:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA01069 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:36:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip19.ivnet.net [206.101.73.179]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03736; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 21:40:05 -0800 Message-ID: <36550FE3.3C5EB597@ivnet.net> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:44:51 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "malcolm.scott@which.net" CC: Renewable News Network , Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Mass References: <365406E2.F06092BC@which.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5038 > I interpret this as "insulate the thermal mass from the living space". > This is what I am saying I think. The thermal mass needs to isolated, > solar heated only, and actively controlled. I designed and built a house once using thermal mass insulated from the living space. The thermal mass was an active solar-heated hot tub in a room with an insulated slab and lots of southfacing glass. The tub room also housed the laundry area. The idea was for the warm air to diffuse to the upstairs of the house through a large closable laundry chute. The cold air would return independently through a stairwell. It still seems as though it should have worked... Yards of concrete, 400 gallons of hot water, another ton of ceramic tile... Never really was all that effective tho. I've often wondered why. More mass? Heat loss through all the glass? Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 20 02:42:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA00198 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:42:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA03498; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:26:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:23:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA03272 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:22:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA03268 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:22:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA23969 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 01:35:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md14-24.ix.netcom.com(199.182.66.24) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma023956; Fri Nov 20 01:34:55 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981120023238.006d7e24@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:32:54 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Air-core System <"Air floors"> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5039 Air-core System <"Air floors"> You may wish to check out our ASME "21st Century Renewable Energy Technologies" paper on the topic of air-core systems, of which the "air floor" thread subject is a sub-set. Such systems have been successfully designed and built with a variety of different supply and return air strategies since the late '70s. Web site location of paper: ((need Adobe Acrobat)) ((file ~ 314 Kb )) | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 20 07:40:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA01699 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 07:40:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA10196; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 07:25:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Nov 1998 07:21:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA09941 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 07:21:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA09937 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 07:21:06 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ490808; Fri, 20 Nov 98 05:32:38 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA68962; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 05:33:42 -0700 Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 05:33:41 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Bruce Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , John LaGamba Subject: GBlist: wood smoke + rainwater collection In-Reply-To: <36551692.53302F9C@ivnet.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5040 You said:" But I would never reccomend rainwater catchment from houses heated by wood combustion. Polycyclic hydrocarbons from the woodsmoke would not be ideal in potable water." ______________________________________________________________________ Bruce: Thanks for the above. I will investigate this some more. Have you or anyone else seen any literature or papers on this? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 20 09:02:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02699 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:02:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13671; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:44:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA13319 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:43:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from clover.sover.net (root@old-clover.sover.net [204.71.16.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA13313 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:43:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by clover.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA17799; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:57:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.143] (pm2a2.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.194]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA15018; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:57:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:57:06 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981120053638.006ba684@capecod.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Bruce Hammond , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: heating retrofit for passive solar house Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5041 At 5:36 AM -0800 11/20/98, Bruce Hammond wrote: >I recently purchased an 1,100 sq. foot Cape on the island of Martha's >Vineyard. It was built in '82 and is designed to be passive solar (sliding >glass doors across so. side w/ concrete slab/tile floor inside). I need to >replace the electric heat and am searching for an affordable, efficient and >pleasant solution. > >A central furnace/radiators is estimated to cost at least $6 K; the >cheapest option is a Rinnai propane heater but I really don't find the >blowing hot air comfortable. I am also looking into a propane cast iron >stove, such as those made by Jotul, VT Castings, etc. Are there any other >options I should look into? Thanks for your ideas! For such a small space--and assuming that it is fairly well-insulated--it will be hard to justify the expense of a full-blown hydronic heat distribution system. I think you are on-track considering the Rinnai or a propane cast-iron stove. The latter will have a higher percentage of its heat delivered radiantly, which seems like a priority to you, so I would suggest that option. Make sure, however, that you don't buy one of the increasingly common _unvented_ gas heaters, though. Buy only a through-the-wall vented model. Good luck. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News Brattleboro, Vermont ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 20 11:50:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA05787 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:50:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21629; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:34:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:28:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21157 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:28:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21145 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:28:38 -0500 (EST) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id OCUYa03115; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:39:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <79ae3f12.36559b4c@aol.com> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:39:40 EST To: cneurath@tds.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Maple Syrup vs Rainwater Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5042 Think more on the issue, I realize that boiling away at metals is likely to dissolve them than rinsing them with rainwater, though I supposed the difference is somewhat contracted when rain hits a roof that has been recently in full sun in a hot climate. Most good rainwater collection systems have a separate containter for the first flush, which will be hot and therefore more likely to dissolve lead, etc., than further rainfall. This is diverted to irrigation, stock feed, etc. The question of pH comes to play, here. I don't know what the pH maple sap is or how it varies with acid rain, etc. But "normal" rainwater (e.g. pre- industrial revolutin rain) is pH 5.5, pretty acid, and almost all pollutants of moment serve to lower that. Another concern. A high lime morter such as used in ferrocement is a likely help in reducing dissolution of most metals. And a sod roof is likely to serve as an efficient biiological filter, particularly if the sod is well limed or grown on high pH soil. Again, reverse osmosis has a great deal to recommend it, though we still have to decide where the concentrated residue goes. Into the septic tank, if any? Into the ground? We've mobilized a lot of toxic stuff, created a whole lot more, and almost anything we do stirs it up and moves it around some more. It seems for roofing applications, we need to know 1) how pH affects dissolution of lead and other metals, 2) low cost ways to precipitate out toxic metals in cisterns, and 3) simple means of further purifying water specifically destined for ingestion. For example, if we use the water to irrigate, say citrus, apple, or gape plants, will the resulting juices contain less of the lead. It turns out that this will vary species by species and variety by variety, and maybe even microclimate by microclimate. And as we all know it varies by the part of the plant we use. Then we have to look at alternatives. Showering in chlorinated water is a really toxic rinse, for example, as the chlorine goes right through the skin. It is profoundly reactive and can cause the whole line-up of problems. I can avoid it in drinking water by holding the water long enough to volitalize it away, but I can't avoid it in washing. While it would be pleasant, indeed, to have toxic free alternatives, they are scarce or non-existant on planet Earth. So what is the best we can do? And how does this vary according to circumstances? Aside from these considerations, or added to them if you will, are the questions of aquifer depletion by public water systems and many home water systems (and of course disportionately much by industries) and the ecological and therefor indirect health costs of water system infrastructure. Here, roof-catchment systems are way ahead of what is second best, except for the zillionth of one percent of people who live downhill from a pure spring to which they have water rights. (Springs are rarely pure nowadays and as deforestation proceeds, they are drying up in what is probably an exponential acceleration.) Frankly, I'm rather suspicious that fossil based coatings on collection surfaces will represent more problems than they solve, though if we define our interests narrowly enough they may seem to serve. Maybe every building needs its own solar water still to add to the supply of drinking water on sunny days. It is a bit of an expense, but probably much less than a deep well (which addmitedly affects only the small percentage of homes that are newly built). I'm very interested in solid solutins to this question, bearing in mind that although most of this list seems to represent industrialized English-speaking populations, we are way less than 10 percent of the world population. I'm not nearly so interested in solutions for yuppies who can afford to have pure water trucked in regularly as I am in solutions for most of the other people on Earth. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 20 12:24:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA06426 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:24:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23671; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:09:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:05:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23297 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:05:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23292 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 12:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from my_machine.UIC.EDU (SLIP10B-14.DIALIN.UIC.EDU [128.248.141.130]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA05045 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:56:32 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981119225718.006b029c@tigger.cc.uic.edu> X-Sender: miversen@tigger.cc.uic.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:57:18 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Michael Iversen Subject: Re.: GBlist: Traditional Neighborhoods in Florida Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5043 The following information is being provided in response to several individual inquiries seeking additional information on my previous posting concerning evaluation programs currently available to gauge the sustainability of green building products, buildings and communities. LEED / Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design: LEED is a voluntary standard for what constitutes a green building. Created by the US Green Building Council, the LEED Building Rating System was publicly launched in 1998. For more information, contact the US Green Building Council at 415.543.3001 / email: info@usgbc.org / web site: www.usgbc.org. BREEAM / Building Research Establishment Environmental Assessment Methodology: The Building Research Establishment (BRE) in the UK has launched an updated version of its Environmental Assessment Method called BREEAM 98 for Offices that combines assessment tools for new and existing offices. BRE-licensed assessors rate designs and management policies, awarding certificates of overall performance (pass, good, very good, or excellent), and can adjust the ratings for changes in design or management. Improvements include a weighting system that targets priority areas early in design, comprehensive life-cycle assessment for material selection, more emphasis on location and energy used in commuting, higher performance requirements but less prescriptive means, and early guidance from assessors on meeting the criteria. For more information, email the BREEAM office . To order BREEAM 98 for Offices, call CRC at 0171 505 6622. BEES / Building for Environmental and Economic Sustainability: BEES is a systematic methodology implemented in decision support software for selecting building products that achieve the most appropriate balance between environmental and economic performance. The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) Green Buildings Program began the BEES project in 1995 to facilitate the identification process of environmentally and economically balanced building products. In 1997, the USEPA began supporting the development of the program. For more information, contact BEES via email at ppic@epamail.epa.gov. Michael Iversen, AIA Adjunct Assistant Professor University of Illinois at Chicago School of Architecture (m/c 030) 3100 Art and Architecture Building, Room 3100 845 West Harrison Street Chicago, IL 60607-7024 Tel: 773.244.9227 Fax: 773.871.0121 E-mail: MIversen@uic.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 20 15:37:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA10733 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:37:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04408; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:22:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:16:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA03871 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:16:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA03865 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:16:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA00370 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 14:29:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md15-06.ix.netcom.com(199.182.66.134) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma000350; Fri Nov 20 14:28:55 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981120152650.007317a0@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 15:26:52 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: "Mass" issue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5044 At 02:00 AM 11/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >greenbuilding-digest Friday, November 20 1998 Volume 02 : Number 379 > > Re: GBlist: Mass >---------------------------------------------------------------------- Alex and Nadav -- I would rather avoid submitting a lengthy diatribe on thermal storage, heat capacity, central versus distributed "mass", diurnal versus long-term storage, and the effectiveness of different materials and design approaches, yada yada... Especially, when earlier this year Environmental Building News ran such a terrific article on the topic. Perhaps there is no less well understood issue, maybe with the exception of moisture vapor retarders and air barriers... What should be done to best assist near term closure the "mass" thread? Upon reviewing the whole thing evolving over the last several days, I am left quite concerned. Best Regards, Bion Howard | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 20 22:27:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA16981 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:27:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA20404; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:12:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:08:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA20128 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:08:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.8] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20124 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 22:08:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.138]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3782900 ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:21:28 -0800 Message-ID: <36563135.A39C1290@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:19:17 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bion D. Howard" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: "Mass" issue References: <3.0.32.19981120152650.007317a0@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5045 Hi Bion I for one would enjoy the lengthy diatribe both as a form of closure and knowledge. Knowledge is a much different commodity than information which tends to require a lot of repeating before it sinks in (pun intended) and a little praxis. EBN's article is ink based still, and I have enough paper for my winter fires and still some left to recycle, so fire away. John Bion D. Howard wrote: > At 02:00 AM 11/20/98 -0500, you wrote: > >greenbuilding-digest Friday, November 20 1998 Volume 02 : Number 379 > > > > Re: GBlist: Mass > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Alex and Nadav -- I would rather avoid submitting a lengthy diatribe on > thermal storage, heat capacity, central versus distributed "mass", diurnal > versus long-term storage, and the effectiveness of different materials and > design approaches, yada yada... Especially, when earlier this year > Environmental Building News ran such a terrific article on the topic. > > Perhaps there is no less well understood issue, maybe with the exception of > moisture vapor retarders and air barriers... What should be done to best > assist near term closure the "mass" thread? Upon reviewing the whole thing > evolving over the last several days, I am left quite concerned. > > Best Regards, Bion Howard > > | > =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services > | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal > Building Environmental Science & Technology > P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 21 00:20:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA18079 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 00:20:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA23389; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 00:05:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Nov 1998 00:01:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA23121 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 00:01:50 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811210501.AAA23121@solstice.crest.org> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: GBlist: Large Scale Green Building Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:56:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5046 Dear Listers, Bruce Sullivan and I were just discussing creating another Green Building List that would focus on Green Building issues related to large scale construction projects. This would include multifamily residential, commercial, institutional, industrial, educational and mixed use projects. I am interested in the group's thoughts on this idea. Are there other people out there who really enjoy this list but sometimes struggle to find posts that help them figure out how to make large projects more sustainable? Would a separate list be of value or do you think it would be redundant? I am willing to sponsor the list if there is a reasonable amount of interest so please let me know if you think this is a good idea and a good use of resources. Thank you for any feedback, Drew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Drew George, Green Building Champion Bovis Construction Corp 7475 Wisconsin Avenue, 10th Floor Bethesda MD 20814 USA Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 http://www.bovis.com Drew.George@Bovis.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 21 08:33:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA20412 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 08:33:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01646; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 08:19:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Nov 1998 08:15:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01424 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 08:14:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01420 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 08:14:53 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ398790; Sat, 21 Nov 98 06:26:33 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA126638; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 06:27:32 -0700 Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 06:27:32 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: CALXA@aol.com Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , strawbuilding@ucalgary.ca Subject: GBlist: CO2 & stucco In-Reply-To: <3bcc7b11.36563f07@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5047 Harry: Further to your comments below, and recent discussions of this issue on the greenbuiling listserver, does anyone have "CO2 Absorbtivity rates" for various materials (ie. Kg/SF/year?). This would seem like a worthwhile design criteria for material selection along with other indicators of sustainability. Jorg Ostrowski __________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 CALXA@aol.com wrote: > > I guess that one might argue that because lime stuccos have more lime per unit > measurement,than does cement mixes, then Lime would absorb more CO2 , than > does the mixture of cement,. Cement is aproximately 1/3 lime on a chemical > balance, which is mostly tied up as CaSi; CaAl, etc.( not ment to be correct > chemical formulas). Cement manufacturers try to have virtually no free lime in > their cement , with objectives of < 1%, and often approaching about .5% or > lower. > > Harry > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 21 09:50:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA20850 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:50:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04105; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:35:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:31:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03697 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:31:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03693 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:31:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.64] (rkd040.acadia.net [208.244.128.64]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA07846 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:44:31 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:43:37 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: heating retrofit for passive solar house Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5048 Alex wrote: > >For such a small space--and assuming that it is fairly well-insulated--it >will be hard to justify the expense of a full-blown hydronic heat >distribution system. I think you are on-track considering the Rinnai or a >propane cast-iron stove. The latter will have a higher percentage of its >heat delivered radiantly, which seems like a priority to you, so I would >suggest that option. Make sure, however, that you don't buy one of the >increasingly common _unvented_ gas heaters, though. Buy only a >through-the-wall vented model. Good luck. > >Alex Wilson, Editor >Environmental Building News >Brattleboro, Vermont end of quote Bruce, I'd second what Alex wrote, and urge you to get a "sealed-combustion" propane cast iron stove. Some through-wall vented models only exhaust combustion gasses to the outside, using indoor air for combustion. A sealed-combustion unit gets supply air from outside and exhausts outside. I think that's the kind you want. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 21 09:50:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA20855 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:50:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04123; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:35:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:31:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03711 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:31:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03707 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:31:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.64] (rkd040.acadia.net [208.244.128.64]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA07863 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:44:39 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:43:44 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: CO2 & stucco Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5049 The thread: >Harry: Further to your comments below, and recent discussions of this >issue on the greenbuiling listserver, does anyone have "CO2 Absorbtivity rates" >for various materials (ie. Kg/SF/year?). This would seem like a worthwhile >design criteria for material selection along with other indicators of >sustainability. Jorg Ostrowski >__________________________________________________________________________ >On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 CALXA@aol.com wrote: > >> >> I guess that one might argue that because lime stuccos have more lime >>per unit >> measurement,than does cement mixes, then Lime would absorb more CO2 , than >> does the mixture of cement,. Cement is aproximately 1/3 lime on a chemical >> balance, which is mostly tied up as CaSi; CaAl, etc.( not ment to be correct >> chemical formulas). Cement manufacturers try to have virtually no free >>lime in >> their cement , with objectives of < 1%, and often approaching about .5% or >> lower. end of quotes Just want to point out that for eons, CO2 has been regulated on this planet by life: forests, grasslands, corals, other marine organisms making calcium carbonate shells, etc. It's admirable to try to make buildings into net carbon sinks, but if we build our environment so that we neither emit vast amounts of CO2, nor destroy the biogeochemical cyles, then CO2 will be regulated just fine. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 21 10:05:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20928 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:05:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04682; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:50:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:47:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA04376 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:46:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04367; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:46:56 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ093169; Sat, 21 Nov 98 07:58:40 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17064; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 07:59:08 -0700 Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 07:59:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Renewable News Network Cc: Mark Bigland-Pritchard , GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver Subject: GBlist: rewards/tools/indicators/instruments/mechanisms to reduce GHG emissions In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5050 Russ: Thank you for your very interesting posting on the above. Further to the quote as noted below, we are working on a proposal for funding for the above. Included are: 1) a Solar Breeder Contract: for solar electric conversions 2) a Solar Registered Retirement Savings Plan 3) A Kyoto Award: for outstanding building perforamcne 5) a Retrokit for schools: plug-in device to see Kg/$ saved 6) a Targetmeter: like a big thermometer to demonstrate achievements 7) a Kyoto Account: environmental credits and debits for schools as potential incentives for: fossil fuel reductions, GHG reductions, emissions trading, proactive retrofits and use of renewable energies. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 21 12:21:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21855 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 12:21:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08425; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 12:06:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Nov 1998 12:02:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08173 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 12:02:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.8] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08169 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 12:02:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.114]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3972900 ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:23:27 -0800 Message-ID: <3656F4C1.9CF431FF@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 09:13:37 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: CO2 & stucco References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5051 I have to agree somewhat with David here. Since this discussion has started I've found one reference to a company and technology that boasts co2 sequestering. These kind of processes are useful but not if they simply promote use of high energy products, or become an excuse for their use. On the other hand I do think it is useful to look at construction products based on their long term reactivity to the environment - the net result is not only a change in focus as to what constitutes a product but also results in a product that reacts to the environment is less demanding ways. An exterior finish formulated for co2 absorption would (as in the case of traditional lime based finishes) be one that gains in strength over time, would require less maintenance and pose less of a concern in disposal or re-use. The basic issue is that we construct too much. We build buildings to house materials and stuff to build and fill buildings and then construct landfills (underground buildings for all practical purposes) to house the materials and stuff removed from buildings to make room for more materials and stuff. When I ask a client to spend twice as much to build half the space they view this as a negative result. In other words their spoken or unspoken goal is as much space for as little upfront cost as possible. There is little appreciation of the long term service, maintenance and ultimate environmental costs of large/cheap spaces because these are fairly abstract concepts to deal with when the exigencies appear to be 'affordable large spaces'. John David M. Foley wrote: > Just want to point out that for eons, CO2 has been regulated on this planet > by life: forests, grasslands, corals, other marine organisms making calcium > carbonate shells, etc. It's admirable to try to make buildings into net > carbon sinks, but if we build our environment so that we neither emit vast > amounts of CO2, nor destroy the biogeochemical cyles, then CO2 will be > regulated just fine. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 21 13:17:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22524 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 13:17:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10247; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 13:03:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Nov 1998 12:59:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09934 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 12:59:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from sims-ha.videotron.net (faure.videotron.net [205.151.222.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09928 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 12:59:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from k8j5i4 (ppp132.117.mmtl.videotron.net) by sims-ha.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34) with SMTP id <0F2S00EL4AJEFY@sims-ha.videotron.net> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 13:11:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 13:17:14 -0500 From: Wade Eide Subject: Re: GBlist: CO2 & stucco To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , CALXA@aol.com Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , strawbuilding@ucalgary.ca Message-id: <016701be157b$44b7a7c0$03000004@k8j5i4> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5052 Here is my really dumb question re: "CO2 Absorbtivity rates" of stucco vs concrete, etc.: Is this an important issue? Are buildings ever going to play a significant role in absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere, compared to, say, trees? Or plankton? Do we as architects now have to design buildings that regulate atmospheric gases because we as humans are ever closer to destroying the earth's oceans and forests? Gee, we have a hard enough time designing buildings with reduced negative environmental impacts, let alone trying fix the problem of greenhouse gases. Wade Eide, architect, Montreal ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 21 16:59:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA24283 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:59:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18125; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:44:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:39:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA17702 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:39:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA17696 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:39:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811212139.QAA17696@solstice.crest.org> Received: (qmail 19985 invoked from network); 21 Nov 1998 21:52:54 -0000 Received: from pdx74-i48-31.teleport.com (HELO Kathleen) (204.202.173.237) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 21 Nov 1998 21:52:54 -0000 From: "Ed McNamara" To: "George, Drew" , "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: Re: GBlist: Large Scale Green Building Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 13:51:40 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5053 Drew - I would be very interested in the type of list you suggest. I am a developer of apartment buildings in the central city area of Portland, Oregon. I have completed two buildings and plan to start construction on a third one in late January. All three buildings have been in the range of 113,000 - 130,000 square feet and from 122 to 199 apartments. One was 100% low-income housing, one was mixed-income (40% low-income, 60% median income), one will be all market rate. We have been paying attention to recycled content materials, indoor air quality, energy-efficiency, large recycling rooms, generous amounts of bike parking, onsite stormwater disposal, pesticide-free landscape maintenance, etc. On the last building, we partnered with CarSharing Portland, Inc. (http://www.carsharing-pdx.com) to locate 3 of their vehicles at the building. On the next one, we are planning an eco-roof, water submetering for each apartment, and occupancy sensors and photosensors on all common area lighting. One of my goals is to make sure that these buildings are attractive, cost no more than any other comparable project, and can be designed and built in the same timeframe as any other apartment building. Becuase of that, I don't focus on making them the ideal green building, but rather on adding a little bit more on each project. So far, it's working. On top of that the buildings have rented up quickly. I hope that this will help make some of these practices more commonly adopted by other developers. I am learning as I go along and struggle with a number of questions each project. While I enjoy the GBlist, very little of what is discussed is applicable to my projects. I would enjoy the chance to communicate with others in similar situations. If this sounds like what you are looking for, count me in. Ed McNamara ---------- > From: George, Drew > To: 'GreenBuilding List' > Subject: GBlist: Large Scale Green Building > Date: Friday, November 20, 1998 4:56 PM > > Dear Listers, > Bruce Sullivan and I were just discussing creating another Green Building > List that would focus on Green Building issues related to large scale > construction projects. This would include multifamily residential, > commercial, institutional, industrial, educational and mixed use projects. > > I am interested in the group's thoughts on this idea. Are there other > people out there who really enjoy this list but sometimes struggle to find > posts that help them figure out how to make large projects more > sustainable? > Would a separate list be of value or do you think it would be redundant? > > I am willing to sponsor the list if there is a reasonable amount of > interest > so please let me know if you think this is a good idea and a good use of > resources. > > Thank you for any feedback, > Drew > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Drew George, Green Building Champion > Bovis Construction Corp > 7475 Wisconsin Avenue, 10th Floor > Bethesda MD 20814 USA > Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 > http://www.bovis.com > Drew.George@Bovis.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 21 17:12:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24366 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:12:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18850; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:57:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:54:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA18563 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:53:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA18559 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 16:53:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from kbell (pool-207-205-131-230.atln.grid.net [207.205.131.230]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA12309; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:07:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811212207.RAA12309@camel8.mindspring.com> From: "Karlene" To: , "David M. Foley" Subject: Re: GBlist: heating retrofit for passive solar house Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:09:05 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5054 Along these same lines - we have a propane furnace system, but on just coolish mornings, I hate to fire up the whole thing - we've been thinking about getting a sealed fireplace or stove of some kind to put in the kitchen-den area. It could also serve when the power is out to keep me from having to haul the kerosun in from the workshop- YUK !! What are the pros & cons of vented sealed fireplace vs inside cast iron propane stove for such a use? I would think that the stove would give more convection heat, but what else? Karlene ---------- > From: David M. Foley > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: Re: GBlist: heating retrofit for passive solar house > Date: Saturday, November 21, 1998 8:43 AM > > Alex wrote: > > > >For such a small space--and assuming that it is fairly well-insulated--it > >will be hard to justify the expense of a full-blown hydronic heat > >distribution system. I think you are on-track considering the Rinnai or a > >propane cast-iron stove. The latter will have a higher percentage of its > >heat delivered radiantly, which seems like a priority to you, so I would > >suggest that option. Make sure, however, that you don't buy one of the > >increasingly common _unvented_ gas heaters, though. Buy only a > >through-the-wall vented model. Good luck. > > > >Alex Wilson, Editor > >Environmental Building News > >Brattleboro, Vermont > end of quote > > Bruce, I'd second what Alex wrote, and urge you to get a > "sealed-combustion" propane cast iron stove. Some through-wall vented > models only exhaust combustion gasses to the outside, using indoor air for > combustion. A sealed-combustion unit gets supply air from outside and > exhausts outside. I think that's the kind you want. > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 21 17:29:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24458 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:29:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19406; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:14:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:11:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA19164 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:11:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19160 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:11:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from kbell (pool-207-205-131-230.atln.grid.net [207.205.131.230]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA09714; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:24:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811212224.RAA09714@camel8.mindspring.com> From: "Karlene" To: "Ed McNamara" , "George, Drew" , "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: Re: GBlist: Large Scale Green Building Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:24:47 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5055 Ed - this may be off-list subject, but I heard recently that Portland has really been controlling groth to protect farmland, and restrict sprawl. This is a big issue here near Asheville. I would appreciate knowing where I could find out more info about this, as I am one of the few advocates of "zoning" in our area. What did you do to overcome objections such as "its my land, I can do what I want", etc.? Anybody can send me suggestions off-list if you have any comments.... thanks, karlene bell - I would be very interested in the type of list you suggest. I am a > developer of apartment buildings in the central city area of Portland, > Oregon. I have completed two buildings and plan to start construction on a > third one in late January. All three buildings have been in the range of > 113,000 - 130,000 square feet and from 122 to 199 apartments. One was 100% > low-income housing, one was mixed-income (40% low-income, 60% median > income), one will be all market rate. > > We have been paying attention to recycled content materials, indoor air > quality, energy-efficiency, large recycling rooms, generous amounts of bike > parking, onsite stormwater disposal, pesticide-free landscape maintenance, > etc. On the last building, we partnered with CarSharing Portland, Inc. > (http://www.carsharing-pdx.com) to locate 3 of their vehicles at the > building. On the next one, we are planning an eco-roof, water submetering > for each apartment, and occupancy sensors and photosensors on all common > area lighting. > > One of my goals is to make sure that these buildings are attractive, cost > no more than any other comparable project, and can be designed and built in > the same timeframe as any other apartment building. Becuase of that, I > don't focus on making them the ideal green building, but rather on adding a > little bit more on each project. So far, it's working. On top of that the > buildings have rented up quickly. I hope that this will help make some of > these practices more commonly adopted by other developers. > > I am learning as I go along and struggle with a number of questions each > project. While I enjoy the GBlist, very little of what is discussed is > applicable to my projects. > I would enjoy the chance to communicate with others in similar situations. > If this sounds like what you are looking for, count me in. > > Ed McNamara > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 21 17:42:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24542 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:42:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19984; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:27:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:24:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA19721 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:23:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from clover.sover.net (root@old-clover.sover.net [204.71.16.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19716 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:23:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by clover.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA17616 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:37:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.143] (pm0a10.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.74]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA27710; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:37:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:37:04 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net): [207.136.199.143] from 207.136.199.74 by alex@ebuild.com for on Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:37:04 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36563135.A39C1290@cow-net.com> References: <3.0.32.19981120152650.007317a0@popd.ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: "Mass" issue Cc: john@ebuild.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5056 We've been talking about posting this article about thermal mass and R-value on our Web site. I'll talk with our Webmaster and see if there's space available. It's such a confusing topic, I agree that making accurate information available electronically would be beneficial. Hopefully you will soon find the article at www.ebuild.com. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News http://www.ebuild.com At 7:19 PM -0800 11/20/98, John Salmen wrote: >Hi Bion > >I for one would enjoy the lengthy diatribe both as a form of closure and >knowledge. Knowledge is a much different commodity than information which >tends >to require a lot of repeating before it sinks in (pun intended) and a little >praxis. EBN's article is ink based still, and I have enough paper for my >winter fires and still some left to recycle, so fire away. > >John > >Bion D. Howard wrote: > >> At 02:00 AM 11/20/98 -0500, you wrote: >> >greenbuilding-digest Friday, November 20 1998 Volume 02 : Number 379 >> > >> > Re: GBlist: Mass >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Alex and Nadav -- I would rather avoid submitting a lengthy diatribe on >> thermal storage, heat capacity, central versus distributed "mass", diurnal >> versus long-term storage, and the effectiveness of different materials and >> design approaches, yada yada... Especially, when earlier this year >> Environmental Building News ran such a terrific article on the topic. >> >> Perhaps there is no less well understood issue, maybe with the exception of >> moisture vapor retarders and air barriers... What should be done to best >> assist near term closure the "mass" thread? Upon reviewing the whole thing >> evolving over the last several days, I am left quite concerned. >> >> Best Regards, Bion Howard >> >> | >> =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services >> | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal >> Building Environmental Science & Technology >> P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >> Environmental Building News and Oikos >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >> ______________________________________________________________________ > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 22 01:35:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA00024 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 01:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA03664; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 01:20:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Nov 1998 01:15:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA03329 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 01:14:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA03325 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 01:14:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.100]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4246600 ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 22:30:41 -0800 Message-ID: <3657ADE9.D4893591@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 22:23:38 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wade Eide CC: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , CALXA@aol.com, GreenBuilding Listserver , strawbuilding@ucalgary.ca Subject: Re: GBlist: CO2 & stucco References: <016701be157b$44b7a7c0$03000004@k8j5i4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5057 Its an important issue insofar as it keeps our minds alive as to how a building and the materials in it function and relate to each other and the environment and the complexity involved in appropriate usage. This issue has reinforced (I hope) the knowledge that the construction of buildings and their operation produce co2. I hope that this knowledge has been reinforced by the 'stretched' scenario of buildings consuming co2, in other words our imaginations are stretched by how limited our abilities are to recapture our excesses. Buildings that adopt environmental concerns often exhibit excess because they adopt values that are not in themselves conserving but are by association considered green. 'Quality construction' for example is often considered synonymous with 'lasting or enduring' which is often considered synonymous with good environmental practice. Quality construction however uses materials to excess; 6" of conc. where 4 or even 2 would do, excessive framing in walls that won't survive the first renovation, costly heating systems where the equivalent expense in additonal insulative values would make their use redundant. There is a lot of contradiction in what we try to place value in or put value on. Probably the most conserving house 'at this point in history' would be one made in a factory that is designed to close the loop somewhat on its processes, regardless of materials used. It would probably not be my ideal but then again this particular 'point in history' leaves much to be desired in general. John Wade Eide wrote: > Here is my really dumb question re: "CO2 Absorbtivity rates" of stucco vs > concrete, etc.: > > Is this an important issue? Are buildings ever going to play a significant > role in absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere, compared to, say, trees? Or > plankton? Do we as architects now have to design buildings that regulate > atmospheric gases because we as humans are ever closer to destroying the > earth's oceans and forests? > > Gee, we have a hard enough time designing buildings with reduced negative > environmental impacts, let alone trying fix the problem of greenhouse gases. > > Wade Eide, architect, Montreal > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 22 08:48:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA02311 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 08:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10895; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 08:33:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Nov 1998 08:29:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA10520 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 08:29:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10508; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 08:29:34 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ503112; Sun, 22 Nov 98 06:41:14 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA122766; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 06:41:42 -0700 Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 06:41:41 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: John Salmen , Wade Eide , CALXA@AOL.COM, Strawbale Listserver , "David M. Foley" , "Robert W. Tom" , Jorg Ostrowski Subject: GBlist: CO2 absorptivity as environmental currency Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5058 In response to the thoughts, questions and information supplied by yourself, Harry Francis, David Foley, Rob Tom and John Salmen, my initial question was: could this be relevant? Based on the discussions and some detailed information from Harry, I now do think this may well be useful in a developoment of a sustainable community, eco-village or subdivision to know how many trees should be planted to achieve a NET REDUCTION in CO2 (and other GHG emission) resulting from "craddle to grave" of construction and operation over the life cycle of the development.This would not only apply to stucco but also to concrete and perhaps to many other products as well.The main point is that on such a project (or perhaps for an office building,or commercial project), part of my obligation would be to ensure that the development ends up as an asset to the environment, not a liability using sustainable criteria on which we all agree (as listed by Rob Tom) especially CO2. In addition, the total calculation of "externalities" would include the CO2 absorptivity of building materials to establish total amount of "tradable emissions". As an example, a small development of 60 housing units (some single family, but most multi-family) could earn about $20,000 a year at $20/Tonne of avoided CO2 (based on operating costs only). However, this number would be changed significantly once the CO2 emissions and absorptivity resulting from construction and CO2 was calculated. In addition, the equation could be enhanced once a sustainable community achieved a policy of:an environmentally-sound transportation system (ie. car pooling, solar shuttle); no gas lawn mowers, barbeques; treed boulevards, wood groves, shelter belts etc. Therefore the the absorptivity of CO2 could significantly influence the balance sheet and may offer economic advantages to the net externalities that were sold.In this way, the economics could be a powerful incentive for the construction of sustainable residential subdivisions, campuses, industriall parks or office buildings. That is what I think. WHAT DO YOU THINK? ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Sat, 21 Nov 1998, Wade Eide wrote: > > Is this an important issue? Are buildings ever going to play a significant > role in absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere, compared to, say, trees? Or > plankton? Do we as architects now have to design buildings that regulate > atmospheric gases because we as humans are ever closer to destroying the > earth's oceans and forests? > > Gee, we have a hard enough time designing buildings with reduced negative > environmental impacts, let alone trying fix the problem of greenhouse gases. > > Wade Eide, architect, Montreal > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 22 09:01:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02377 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:01:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11741; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 08:46:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Nov 1998 08:42:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11410 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 08:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA11406 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 08:42:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-10-224.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.129.224]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA00958; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 08:55:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:01:42 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE15F6.B92684C0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Wade Eide'" , "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , "CALXA@aol.com" Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , "strawbuilding@ucalgary.ca" Subject: RE: GBlist: CO2 & stucco Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 23:05:16 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5059 On Saturday, November 21, 1998 1:17 PM, Wade Eide [SMTP:eide@videotron.ca] wrote: > Is this an important issue? Are buildings ever going to play a significant > role in absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere, compared to, say, trees? Or > plankton? Do we as architects now have to design buildings that regulate > atmospheric gases because we as humans are ever closer to destroying the > earth's oceans and forests? I think the reason for considering CO2 absorption of stucco is merely to ensure a proper acounting for the damage done by such a finish on the environment. My interest was to provide a more realistic life-cycle assesment of cement and lime use, a LCA that does not stop when the stucco is applied to the wall. In response to the question of what arhcitects must do, I would answer yes-- if buildings are consuming resources and producing pollutants (and they are), it is most defintely the mandate of the architect, and certainly any "green" architect to minimize these impacts. Understanding the environmental impacts of such fundamantal building materials like wood, steel, and cement is, IMO, a not insignificant part of the knowldege base required by designers. Hence, the CO2 absorption discussion. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 22 09:43:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02577 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:43:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13386; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:28:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:25:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13126 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:24:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from noc.dcsnet.com (root@noc.dcsnet.com [209.20.22.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13122 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ts1p8.dcsnet.com [209.20.22.27]) by noc.dcsnet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA07275; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:38:08 -0500 Message-ID: <36582284.10ED@mail.dcsnet.com> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:41:08 -0500 From: Brian Desveaux Reply-To: bad@dcsnet.com Organization: Temp-Cast Enviroheat X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Karlene CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, "David M. Foley" Subject: Re: GBlist: heating retrofit for passive solar house References: <199811212207.RAA12309@camel8.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5060 Karlene wrote: > > Along these same lines - we have a propane furnace system, but on just > coolish mornings, I hate to fire up the whole thing - we've been thinking > about getting a sealed fireplace or stove of some kind to put in the > kitchen-den area. It could also serve when the power is out to keep me > from having to haul the kerosun in from the workshop- YUK !! What are the > pros & cons of vented sealed fireplace vs inside cast iron propane stove > for such a use? I would think that the stove would give more convection > heat, but what else? Karlene > ---------- > > From: David M. Foley > > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > > Subject: Re: GBlist: heating retrofit for passive solar house > > Date: Saturday, November 21, 1998 8:43 AM > > > > Alex wrote: > > > > > >For such a small space--and assuming that it is fairly > well-insulated--it > > >will be hard to justify the expense of a full-blown hydronic heat > > >distribution system. I think you are on-track considering the Rinnai or > a > > >propane cast-iron stove. The latter will have a higher percentage of its > > >heat delivered radiantly, which seems like a priority to you, so I would > > >suggest that option. Make sure, however, that you don't buy one of the > > >increasingly common _unvented_ gas heaters, though. Buy only a > > >through-the-wall vented model. Good luck. > > > > > >Alex Wilson, Editor > > >Environmental Building News > > >Brattleboro, Vermont > > end of quote > > > > Bruce, I'd second what Alex wrote, and urge you to get a > > "sealed-combustion" propane cast iron stove. Some through-wall vented > > models only exhaust combustion gasses to the outside, using indoor air > for > > combustion. A sealed-combustion unit gets supply air from outside and > > exhausts outside. I think that's the kind you want. > > > > David Foley > > Holland and Foley Building Design > > 232 Beech Hill Road > > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ Hi Karlene: Depending on your budget, you might want to look at our "small" gas masonry heater, which is direct-vented (through the wall or ceiling) & is sealed so that only exterior air is used for combustion. It will give you the radiant heat you probaby want, doesn't need electricity, can be thermostatically controlled and has a few more design possibilities than cast-iron. I've been lurking for a few days on this group, so I guess this is a good time to introduce myself. Our company is Temp-Cast Enviroheat Ltd. (www.tempcast.com). We manufacture modular masonry heater and heater/bakeoven kits in both wood models and comparatively smaller gas models. We have a small dealer network in Canada, the USA and Germany, and also ship direct to customers anywhere in North America. (& 'nuff said about us - I hope that's enough but not too much promotion!) Good luck with your project. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 22 11:14:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03328 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 11:14:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16349; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 10:59:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Nov 1998 10:55:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15820 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 10:55:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.8] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15808 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 10:55:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.135]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4325700 ; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 08:19:01 -0800 Message-ID: <36583686.95B3C350@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 08:06:31 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: GreenBuilding Listserver , Wade Eide , CALXA@AOL.COM, Strawbale Listserver , "David M. Foley" , "Robert W. Tom" Subject: Re: GBlist: CO2 absorptivity as environmental currency References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5061 This reminded me of an anecdote from a William McDonough lecture so I thought I would share it. For Warsaw, Poland, we responded to a design competition for a high-rise building. When the client chose our design as the winner after seeing the model, we said, "We're not finished yet. We have to tell you all about the building. The base is made from concrete and includes tiny bits of rubble from World War II. It looks like limestone, but the rubble is there for visceral reasons." And he said, "I understand, a phoenix rising." And we said the skin is recycled aluminum, and he said, "That's O.K., that's fine." And we said, "The floor heights are 13 feet clear so that we can convert the building into housing in the future, when its utility as an office building is no longer. In this way, the building is guaranteed to have a long life." And he said, "That's O.K." And we told him that we would have opening windows and that no one would be further than twenty-five feet from a windows, and he said that was O.K., too. And finally, we said, "By the way, you have to plant ten square miles of forest to offset the building's effect on climate change." We had calculated the energy costs to build the structure, and the energy cost to run and maintain it, and it worked out that 6,400 acres of new forest would be needed to offset the effects on climate from the energy requirements. And he said he would get back to us. He called back two days later and said, "You still win. I checked out what it would cost to plant ten square miles of trees in Poland and it turns out it's equivalent to a small part of the advertising budget." Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > In response to the thoughts, questions and information supplied by yourself, > Harry Francis, David Foley, Rob Tom and John Salmen, my initial > question was: could this be relevant? Based on the discussions and some > detailed information from Harry, I now do think this may well be useful > in a developoment of a sustainable community, eco-village or subdivision > to know how many trees should be planted to achieve a NET REDUCTION in CO2 > (and other GHG emission) resulting from "craddle to grave" of construction > and operation over the life cycle of the development.This would not only > apply to stucco but also to concrete and perhaps to many other products as > well.The main point is that on such a project (or perhaps for an office > building,or commercial project), part of my obligation would be to ensure > that the development ends up as an asset to the environment, not a liability > using sustainable criteria on which we all agree (as listed by Rob Tom) > especially CO2. > > In addition, the total calculation of "externalities" would include the > CO2 absorptivity of building materials to establish total amount of > "tradable emissions". As an example, a small development of 60 housing > units (some single family, but most multi-family) could earn about $20,000 > a year at $20/Tonne of avoided CO2 (based on operating costs only). > However, this number would be changed significantly once the CO2 emissions > and absorptivity resulting from construction and CO2 was calculated. In > addition, the equation could be enhanced once a sustainable community > achieved a policy of:an environmentally-sound transportation system (ie. > car pooling, solar shuttle); no gas lawn mowers, barbeques; treed > boulevards, wood groves, shelter belts etc. Therefore the the absorptivity > of CO2 could significantly influence the balance sheet and may offer > economic advantages to the net externalities that were sold.In this way, > the economics could be a powerful incentive for the construction of > sustainable residential subdivisions, campuses, industriall parks or > office buildings. That is what I think. WHAT DO YOU THINK? > ***************************************************************************** > Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. > - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > - college campus and office tower recofit under construction > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 > Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > ######################################################### > > On Sat, 21 Nov 1998, Wade Eide wrote: > > > > Is this an important issue? Are buildings ever going to play a significant > > role in absorbing CO2 from the atmosphere, compared to, say, trees? Or > > plankton? Do we as architects now have to design buildings that regulate > > atmospheric gases because we as humans are ever closer to destroying the > > earth's oceans and forests? > > > > Gee, we have a hard enough time designing buildings with reduced negative > > environmental impacts, let alone trying fix the problem of greenhouse gases. > > > > Wade Eide, architect, Montreal > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 22 12:50:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03945 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:50:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19797; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:35:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:31:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19443 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:31:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from bminet.bminet.com (root@console.bminet.com [207.170.27.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19435 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:31:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from clearned.bminet.com (dial178.bminet.com [207.170.27.178]) by bminet.bminet.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA16924 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:01:21 -0600 Message-Id: <199811221801.MAA16924@bminet.bminet.com> From: "Chuck Learned" To: Subject: GBlist: Generators, some advice please! Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 11:39:11 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5062 Hi good folks, I learned about a man who is making a trip to India where he will be purchasing a bunch of generators. It seemed like a good deal, but this is all new to me and I thought some of you could enlighten me as to whether this is a good idea to purchase this. The unit is a Slow Speed Lister Type Diesel Generator 15kW 110/220 volt, single phase, 1800 rpm, 2cylinder with electric starter, control panel. It has a stroke of 102x110, 1800cc, compression ratio 17:1 24 hp Weight 1000lbs with a 5 gallon tank. A picture is on a website http://www.engine-source.com scroll down until you see Slow Speed Lister Generator. The cost is $2500 In the little research I have done I was seeing $4500-$5900 for similar Kw I am looking to set up a homestead in Wisconsin. I am figuring that we will have plenty of days of no sunshine, so I am tenatively thinking of this as a cogeneration/back-up to solar. However if I was able to work out creating a BioDiesel then I might run it as primary. I don't know, what do you think? Better ideas? Does anybody no anything about this? If you find yourself interested in this generator the mans name is Blair, he is heading over to India on Monday and will be there for a few weeks. If you get a check to his wife, he will ship one back to you with a February arrival. Be Well, Chuck Learned ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 22 14:21:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04567 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 14:21:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23335; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 14:06:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 22 Nov 1998 14:02:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23063 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 14:02:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from seahorse.epud.net (root@seahorse.epud.net [205.240.25.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23059 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 14:02:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([209.102.14.202]) by seahorse.epud.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA21531 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 11:11:59 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199811221911.LAA21531@seahorse.epud.net> From: "Dean Still" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: "Mass" issue Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 11:21:17 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5063 Dear Alex Wilson and Bion Howard, Bion writes that he is looking for closure on the mass thread. I propose that one of the quickest ways to gain a consensus on current opinion is for someone to list what mass supposedly does in a building. Then the educated community can chime in and we all will gain a feeling for the state of knowledge. To further this goal, I'll list what I think about thermal mass and invite you both and others to clarify. Like Bion, I feel that the role of thermal mass in buildings is important and yet very muddy since, IMO, passive solar buildings can be of two distinct types. The glass and mass model, in heating mode, fills the interior with too much sunshine, the mass moderates its effect and retains some heat to coast the building through nightime when a lot of heat leaves through the windows. The light and tight house, on the other hand, is superinsulated/airtight and doesn't feature so much south facing glass. These features moderate temperature swings as the mass does in glass and mass types. The small amount of admitted sunlight assists to warm the house but no, or little, added mass is needed. Shading in both types of houses helps with potential overheating. Both are solar houses in that the heat from the sunlight helps to warm the interior. I understood the EBN article to conclude that R value is not enhanced by added thermal mass unless there are large diurnal swings in external temperature above and below the desired interior temperature. So in a well insulated house adding mass may make economic sense in the Southwest or desert regions but not in places like Oregon, where I live, where daily temperatures are always below the desired interior temperature. Do we all agree that a light and tight house can do very nicely without added thermal mass? The EBN article does not, however, IMO, shed much light on the amount of mass needed in a mass and glass house to moderate temperature rise and fall. The guesses made by Mazria, Anderson, etc. seem to be based on their intuitive understanding of the thermal dynamics of photon to air/mass heat exchange. Bascomb has tried to address the problem in his books but they are pretty much unreadable and the architectural community relies on computer programs to predict performance without, again in my opinion, really understanding the assumptions made. A few big remaining questions would be: 1.) what percentage of sunlight btu's end up stored in thermal mass by day's end and 2.) How does indirectly heated mass warm itself, by %radiation, %conduction, %convection and 3.) How to size internal thermal mass to the amount of average insolation? 4.) Does too much thermal mass have a cooling effect? Etc. Does this, hopefully, get us started on the road to common understanding? Regards, Dean Still Aprovecho Research Center ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 04:41:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA13418 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:41:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA21037; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:26:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:22:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA20810 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:22:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from bmcthnt.bm.chalmers.se (bmpc21.bm.chalmers.se [129.16.172.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA20803 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 04:22:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from bmpc12.bm.chalmers.se by bmcthnt.bm.chalmers.se with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id 45RBCAGZ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:28:33 +0100 Received: by bmpc12.bm.chalmers.se with Microsoft Mail id <01BE16CD.07AAE6A0@bmpc12.bm.chalmers.se>; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:35:46 +0100 Message-ID: <01BE16CD.07AAE6A0@bmpc12.bm.chalmers.se> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C5se_Andersson?= To: Green Building Subject: RE: GBlist: Eco-friendly antimicrobial paints? Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:35:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id EAA20804 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5064 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Patrick Pierquet wrote: "Glynson Industries of New York, NY, has a new family of biocidal paints called BNA, that are non-toxic, environmentally friendly and kills bacteria, fungi and viral agents." Bruce Sullivan wrote: " This page identifies the biocide as a "precursor" to Chlorine Dioxide (ClO2). Does anyone know about this compound? " -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I found some toxicity data on Chlorine Dioxide: It is toxic to inhale (Inhalation rat, LC50, 2 hours: 0.73 mg/l) and to consume. It is also irritant to eyes and skin. I couldn't find any eco-toxic data, which doesn't necessarily mean it is not eco-toxic. If the paint contains less than 5 % ClO2 it maybe wouldn't be called "toxic", but it still contains a toxic substance and should at least be called "irritant". Regards, Åse Andersson ---------------------------------------------------- Department of Building Materials Chalmers University of Technology 412 96 Göteborg Sweden Phone: +46-31-772 2333 Fax: +46-31-772 2296 ________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 08:10:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA15013 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:10:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA25161; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 07:55:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 07:52:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA24868 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 07:51:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from clover.sover.net (root@old-clover.sover.net [204.71.16.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA24864 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 07:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by clover.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA11459 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:05:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.143] (pm2a17.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.209]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA10198 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:05:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:05:07 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net): [207.136.199.143] from 207.136.199.209 by alex@ebuild.com for on Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:05:07 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199811221911.LAA21531@seahorse.epud.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: "Mass" issue Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5065 Excellent points, Dean. I should have noted previously, the EBN article on thermal mass and R-value only addresses one issue relating to thermal mass--it's effect on "insulating performance" when used in exterior walls. We chose not to try to address in the same article the other--very different--issue of _interior_ mass for use in passive solar heating. That is a whole separate issue where mass can be beneficial in any climate where passive solar design is being utilized. We hope to address that topic in a future article. -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News At 11:21 AM -0800 11/22/98, Dean Still wrote: >Dear Alex Wilson and Bion Howard, > >Bion writes that he is looking for closure on the mass thread. I propose >that one of the quickest ways to gain a consensus on current opinion is for >someone to list what mass supposedly does in a building. Then the educated >community can chime in and we all will gain a feeling for the state of >knowledge. To further this goal, I'll list what I think about thermal mass >and invite you both and others to clarify. > >Like Bion, I feel that the role of thermal mass in buildings is important >and yet very muddy since, IMO, passive solar buildings can be of two >distinct types. The glass and mass model, in heating mode, fills the >interior with too much sunshine, the mass moderates its effect and retains >some heat to coast the building through nightime when a lot of heat leaves >through the windows. > >The light and tight house, on the other hand, is superinsulated/airtight >and doesn't feature so much south facing glass. These features moderate >temperature swings as the mass does in glass and mass types. The small >amount of admitted sunlight assists to warm the house but no, or little, >added mass is needed. Shading in both types of houses helps with potential >overheating. > >Both are solar houses in that the heat from the sunlight helps to warm the >interior. > >I understood the EBN article to conclude that R value is not enhanced by >added thermal mass unless there are large diurnal swings in external >temperature above and below the desired interior temperature. So in a well >insulated house adding mass may make economic sense in the Southwest or >desert regions but not in places like Oregon, where I live, where daily >temperatures are always below the desired interior temperature. > >Do we all agree that a light and tight house can do very nicely without >added thermal mass? > >The EBN article does not, however, IMO, shed much light on the amount of >mass needed in a mass and glass house to moderate temperature rise and >fall. The guesses made by Mazria, Anderson, etc. seem to be based on their >intuitive understanding of the thermal dynamics of photon to air/mass heat >exchange. > >Balcomb has tried to address the problem in his books but they are pretty >much unreadable and the architectural community relies on computer programs >to predict performance without, again in my opinion, really understanding >the assumptions made. A few big remaining questions would be: > >1.) what percentage of sunlight btu's end up stored in thermal mass by >day's end and 2.) How does indirectly heated mass warm itself, by >%radiation, %conduction, %convection and 3.) How to size internal thermal >mass to the amount of average insolation? 4.) Does too much thermal mass >have a cooling effect? Etc. > >Does this, hopefully, get us started on the road to common understanding? > >Regards, > >Dean Still >Aprovecho Research Center ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 08:35:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA15284 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:35:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25981; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:15:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:11:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA25755 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:11:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA25751 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:11:35 -0500 (EST) From: Snyder.Robin@epamail.epa.gov Received: from myrtle.rtpnc.epa.gov by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26439) with ESMTP id <0F2V00EQXMK3H7@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:24:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from EPAHUB8.RTP.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26438) with SMTP id <0F2V00M8UMKAYI@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:24:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by EPAHUB8.RTP.EPA.GOV(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.3 (733.2 10-16-1998)) id 852566C5.00490718 ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:17:39 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:22:39 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: growth and development issues To: bellstudio@mindspring.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <852566C5.0049061D.00@EPAHUB8.RTP.EPA.GOV> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-disposition: inline X-Lotus-FromDomain: EPA Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5066 You should check out the Smart Growth Network at www.smartgrowth.org bellstudio@mindspring.com on 11/21/98 05:24:47 PM To: edjmac@teleport.com, Drew.George@bovis.com, greenbuilding@crest.org cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: Large Scale Green Building Ed - this may be off-list subject, but I heard recently that Portland has really been controlling groth to protect farmland, and restrict sprawl. This is a big issue here near Asheville. I would appreciate knowing where I could find out more info about this, as I am one of the few advocates of "zoning" in our area. What did you do to overcome objections such as "its my land, I can do what I want", etc.? Anybody can send me suggestions off-list if you have any comments.... thanks, karlene bell - I would be very interested in the type of list you suggest. I am a > developer of apartment buildings in the central city area of Portland, > Oregon. I have completed two buildings and plan to start construction on a > third one in late January. All three buildings have been in the range of > 113,000 - 130,000 square feet and from 122 to 199 apartments. One was 100% > low-income housing, one was mixed-income (40% low-income, 60% median > income), one will be all market rate. > > We have been paying attention to recycled content materials, indoor air > quality, energy-efficiency, large recycling rooms, generous amounts of bike > parking, onsite stormwater disposal, pesticide-free landscape maintenance, > etc. On the last building, we partnered with CarSharing Portland, Inc. > (http://www.carsharing-pdx.com) to locate 3 of their vehicles at the > building. On the next one, we are planning an eco-roof, water submetering > for each apartment, and occupancy sensors and photosensors on all common > area lighting. > > One of my goals is to make sure that these buildings are attractive, cost > no more than any other comparable project, and can be designed and built in > the same timeframe as any other apartment building. Becuase of that, I > don't focus on making them the ideal green building, but rather on adding a > little bit more on each project. So far, it's working. On top of that the > buildings have rented up quickly. I hope that this will help make some of > these practices more commonly adopted by other developers. > > I am learning as I go along and struggle with a number of questions each > project. While I enjoy the GBlist, very little of what is discussed is > applicable to my projects. > I would enjoy the chance to communicate with others in similar situations. > If this sounds like what you are looking for, count me in. > > Ed McNamara > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 08:49:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA15415 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:49:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26751; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:34:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:30:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26458 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:30:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26453 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:30:29 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ593184; Mon, 23 Nov 98 06:41:56 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23102; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 06:42:36 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 06:42:36 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Chuck Learned Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: generator for the present not the past In-Reply-To: <199811221801.MAA16924@bminet.bminet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5067 Chuck: Why bother being restrained by the past?I wouldn't even bother with neanderthal technology. Instead check out something more up-to-date and available in the US today. Try Paul Pantone and his GEET. Jorg Ostrowski BTW: Biodiesel is already available today, depending on where in the US one lives. _________________________________________________________________________ On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, Chuck Learned wrote: > > Hi good folks, > > > I learned about a man who is making a trip to India where he will be > purchasing a bunch of generators. It seemed like a good deal, but this is > all new to me and I thought some of you could enlighten me as to whether > this is a good idea to purchase this. > > The unit is a Slow Speed Lister Type Diesel Generator 15kW > 110/220 volt, single phase, 1800 rpm, 2cylinder with electric starter, > control panel. > It has a stroke of 102x110, 1800cc, compression ratio 17:1 24 hp > Weight 1000lbs with a 5 gallon tank. > > A picture is on a website http://www.engine-source.com scroll down until > you see Slow Speed Lister Generator. > > The cost is $2500 > In the little research I have done I was seeing $4500-$5900 for similar Kw > > I am looking to set up a homestead in Wisconsin. I am figuring that we will > have plenty of days of no sunshine, so I am tenatively thinking of this as > a cogeneration/back-up to solar. > However if I was able to work out creating a BioDiesel then I might run it > as primary. > > I don't know, what do you think? Better ideas? Does anybody no anything > about this? > > If you find yourself interested in this generator the mans name is Blair, > he is heading over to India on Monday and will be there for a few weeks. If > you get a check to his wife, he will ship one back to you with a February > arrival. > > Be Well, > > Chuck Learned > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 09:20:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15948 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:20:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28313; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:05:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:01:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27932 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:01:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27928 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:01:41 -0500 (EST) received: from acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.206) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ726015; Mon, 23 Nov 98 07:12:44 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA59194; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 07:14:08 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 07:14:08 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C5se_Andersson?= Cc: Green Building Subject: GBlist: chlorine dioxide In-Reply-To: <01BE16CD.07AAE6A0@bmpc12.bm.chalmers.se> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA27929 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5068 Our dentist recently recommended use of the above to reduce plague formation on teeth, instead of hydrogen peroxide. He is actually very progressive. Is the above really toxic? Jorg Ostrowski ________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, [iso-8859-1] Åse Andersson wrote: > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > I found some toxicity data on Chlorine Dioxide: > It is toxic to inhale (Inhalation rat, LC50, 2 hours: 0.73 mg/l) and to consume. > It is also irritant to eyes and skin. > I couldn't find any eco-toxic data, which doesn't necessarily mean it is > not eco-toxic. > > If the paint contains less than 5 % ClO2 it maybe wouldn't be called "toxic", but > it still contains a toxic substance and should at least be called "irritant". > > Regards, > > Åse Andersson > ---------------------------------------------------- > Department of Building Materials > Chalmers University of Technology > 412 96 Göteborg > Sweden > Phone: +46-31-772 2333 > Fax: +46-31-772 2296 > > ________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 10:00:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16647 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:00:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00447; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:45:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:41:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA00107 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00102 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:41:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA00906 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:54:20 -0600 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:51:52 -0600 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Re: CO2 & stucco Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:51:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5069 > -----Original Message----- > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 06:27:32 -0700 (MST) > From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" > Subject: GBlist: CO2 & stucco > > Harry: Further to your comments below, and recent discussions of this > issue on the greenbuiling listserver, does anyone have "CO2 Absorbtivity > rates" > for various materials (ie. Kg/SF/year?). This would seem like a worthwhile > design criteria for material selection along with other indicators of > sustainability. Jorg Ostrowski > __________________________________________________________________________ > Jorg - I doubt that SIGNIFICANT amounts of CO2 are fixed by stucco/cement/concrete, in real-world situations. The concrete handbook I have, published by the Amer. Concrete Assoc., states that this process(called "carbonation", I believe) occurs only in the outermost 0.1 inch of concrete....it does not occur throughout the entire thickness of the material. I would assume the same holds true for stucco. This being the case, the amount of CO2 fixed by cementicious materials is rather insignificant, compared to the vast amounts of CO2 released during the kiln operations of portland cement plants. - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 10:24:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17063 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:24:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01608; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:03:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01060 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:03:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01048 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:03:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA06305; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:16:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA23833; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:16:29 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:16:29 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Patrick Pierquet Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: CO2 & stucco In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5070 Thank you, Patrick, CO2 carbon sequestration, is one thing - I cannot speak against it - but it does seem less restorative, and certainly less effective, than a precautionary measure would be. It comes across as an insignificant and after-the-fact rationalization for concrete. I'm not against concrete, but I'm not for for these minor reasons, either. By far the better solution, on the scale of things, if one wants to deal with GHG emissions, is to prevent adding CO2 to the environment through the displacement of fossil fuel use with renewable solar energy applications. ...or is this too obvious? Yours truly, Ross encl: On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, Patrick Pierquet wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 06:27:32 -0700 (MST) > > From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" > > Subject: GBlist: CO2 & stucco > > > > Harry: Further to your comments below, and recent discussions of this > > issue on the greenbuiling listserver, does anyone have "CO2 Absorbtivity > > rates" > > for various materials (ie. Kg/SF/year?). This would seem like a worthwhile > > design criteria for material selection along with other indicators of > > sustainability. Jorg Ostrowski > > __________________________________________________________________________ > > > Jorg - I doubt that SIGNIFICANT amounts of CO2 are fixed by > stucco/cement/concrete, in real-world situations. The concrete handbook I > have, published by the Amer. Concrete Assoc., states that this > process(called "carbonation", I believe) occurs only in the outermost 0.1 > inch of concrete....it does not occur throughout the entire thickness of the > material. I would assume the same holds true for stucco. This being the > case, the amount of CO2 fixed by cementicious materials is rather > insignificant, compared to the vast amounts of CO2 released during the kiln > operations of portland cement plants. > > - Patrick Pierquet > ppierquet@teltech.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > Please, add me to your mailing list, and send newsletters, press releases, announcements, and notices of events to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 For edited news you can RE-use, send "subscribe er-list" for the "Environmental Review" and/or "subscribe solar_utilities" for info on Solar Utilities, to: . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 10:29:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17191 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:29:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02214; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:14:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:10:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01661 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:09:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA01651 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:09:49 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ432495; Mon, 23 Nov 98 08:21:00 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA115706; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:21:48 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:21:48 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Patrick Pierquet Cc: CALXA@aol.com, "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: CO2 & stucco In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5071 Patrick: If this is the case then the ability of cementacious materials to absorb CO2 is INSIGNIFICANT. But if Harry Francis or someone else does not agree, please let us know. Jorg Ostrowski __________________________________________________________________________ Jorg - I doubt that SIGNIFICANT amounts of CO2 are fixed by stucco/cement/concrete, in real-world situations. The concrete handbook I have, published by the Amer. Concrete Assoc., states that this process(called "carbonation", I believe) occurs only in the outermost 0.1 inch of concrete....it does not occur throughout the entire thickness of the material. I would assume the same holds true for stucco. This being the case, the amount of CO2 fixed by cementicious materials is rather insignificant, compared to the vast amounts of CO2 released during the kiln operations of portland cement plants. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 10:36:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17352 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:36:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02812; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:21:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:17:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02401 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02396 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:17:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (1Cust113.tnt13.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.36.113]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA04513 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 07:30:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36597F26.1B07@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 07:28:38 -0800 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: generator for the present not the past References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5072 Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > Biodiesel is already available today, depending on where in the US > one lives. > Jorg: What is biodiesel? seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 10:41:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17477 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:41:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03262; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:26:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:22:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02805 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:21:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from bmcthnt.bm.chalmers.se (bmpc21.bm.chalmers.se [129.16.172.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02791 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:21:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from bmpc12.bm.chalmers.se by bmcthnt.bm.chalmers.se with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id 45RBCA28; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:27:45 +0100 Received: by bmpc12.bm.chalmers.se with Microsoft Mail id <01BE16FF.37113A20@bmpc12.bm.chalmers.se>; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:35:00 +0100 Message-ID: <01BE16FF.37113A20@bmpc12.bm.chalmers.se> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=C5se_Andersson?= To: "'Jorg D. Ostrowski'" Cc: Green Building Subject: GBlist: RE: chlorine dioxide Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:34:59 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAA02792 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5073 Yes, in high concentrations (5% or more) it is toxic. But many of the substances we use are toxic in high concentrations - I don't think (hope) that your dentist would have you exposed for a such dose.. I took the information from a Swedish database. The text I have attached below, is from Ecdin (Environmental Chemicals Data and Information Network, created by the European Commission) and it tells about the same problems -ClO2 seems to be irritant at 5 ppm. As the main problem seems to be related to inhalation it is first of all a problem for the painter (as usual). Åse Andersson Identification Chlorine oxide, (ClO2) chloordioxide chlordioxid chlorine dioxide diossido di cloro dioxido de cloro dioxyde de chlore oxido de cloro Chlordioxid chlorine dioxide Your question is of o EINECS : 233-162-8 Name : chlorine dioxide CAS : 10049-04-4 Mol. Formula : ClO2 Seq. Number : 13109 RTECS Number : FO3000000 Human Health Effects Route of Entry INHALATION. Inhalation SEVERE RESPIRATORY AND EYE IRRITANT. REPEATED ACUTE EXPOSURES TO UNDETERMINED CONCENTRATIONS CAUSED EYE AND THROAT IRRITATION, NASAL DISCHARGE, COUGH, WHEEZING, BRONCHITIS, AND DELAYED ONSET OF PULMONARY OEDEMA. REPEATED EXPOSURE MAY CAUSE CHRONIC BRONCHITIS. Skin contact CORROSIVE: REDNESS, SERIOUS SKIN BURNS, PAIN. RAPID EVAPORATION OF THE LIQUID MAY CAUSE FROSTBITE. Eye contact EYE IRRITATION. REPEATED EXPOSURE TO LOW CONCENTRATIONS OCCASIONALLY CAUSED HALOES TO BE SEEN AROUND LIGHTS. 5 PPM WAS DEFINITELY IRRITATING. REFERENCE MANUFACTURING CHEMISTS ASSOCIATION, INC.: CHEMICAL SAFETY DATA SHEETS SD-80. WASHINGTON D.C., 1980 INTERNATIONAL CHEMICAL SAFETY CARDS. COMMISSION OF THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES, LUXEMBOURG; AND INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMME ON CHEMICAL SAFETY, GENEVA. SERIES 1-5, 1990-1991. PUBLISHED BY: COMMISSION OF THE EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES, DIRECTORATE-GENERAL TELECOMMUNICATIONS, INFORMATION INDUSTRIES AND INNOVATION, L-2920 LUXEMBOURG. GRANT, W.M.; TOXICOLOGY OF THE EYE. (2ND ED), C.C. THOMAS, SPRINGFIELD, ILLINOIS, 1974. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 10:55:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17989 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:55:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04439; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:40:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:36:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04064 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:36:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04056 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:35:59 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ592348; Mon, 23 Nov 98 08:47:29 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA26464; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:47:54 -0700 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:47:54 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: David Melchert Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: generator for the present not the past In-Reply-To: <36597F26.1B07@earthlink.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5074 Seth or David: "BioDiesel" is fuel for diesel generators made from soyabeans. We investigated this application for an office tower to replace standard petrodiesel in back-up units. Jorg ostrowski _________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, David Melchert wrote: > What is biodiesel? > seth > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 11:12:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18605 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:12:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05573; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:57:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:53:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05209 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:53:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05205 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:53:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.131]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 2905600 ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:30:09 -0800 Message-ID: <3659878B.9375AF7E@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:04:27 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: "Åse Andersson" , Green Building Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: GBlist: Eco-friendly antimicrobial paints?chlorine dioxide References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5075 I'm familiar with CI02 as the alternative bleaching process used in many pulp processes. It is also being used increasingly for water treatment. It is toxic, but considered less toxic than chlorine (fewer known byproducts). I don't know how it compares with hydrogen peroxide but as they are both oxidizers they are both capable of damaging tissue. Limits are given as 0.1-0.3 ppm. Eye and skin irritation, cell and tissue damage, bronchitis, are some of the results for exposure that are described for chlorine dioxide and sodium chlorite. It is formed from sodium chlorite and chlorine is a byproduct of manufacture. Its use (in water treatment for example) also results in byproducts though fewer than chlorine or ozone (notably bromates). The paint product must use some form of timed release as chlorine dioxide is highly unstable and its effect would diminish quickly, especially in sunlight. I have to wonder if it possible for a product to be effective over time without crossing thresholds for toxicity, especially in synergism with other chemicals, and what would be the effect on the substrate as chlorine dioxide is highly reactive to most materials. Ozone was shown to be ineffective at low levels and at higher levels becomes increasingly toxic to humans and damaging of materials. I doubt that chlorine dioxide can be effective on a surface without being potentially irritating to people. It might be a better ingredient than the fungicides used in interior paints and caulkings but how much better and at what additional health and environmental cost. We do have increasing problems with fungal growth in residences but applying a surface to treat the problem without treating the cause is another bumper added to a long list of IAQ problems. Another question is what do current regulations cover and how descriptive are they when they describe toxicity limits for biocides. The problem with oxidizers like hydrogen peroxide and chlorine dioxide is that they are finding their way into a large array of products advertised as oxygen enhanced or super cleaning. Everything from mouth wash to detergent. Isn't it possible to be too clean without really cleaning up the things that matter. John Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Our dentist recently recommended use of the above to reduce plague > formation on teeth, instead of hydrogen peroxide. He is actually very > progressive. Is the above really toxic? Jorg Ostrowski > ________________________________________________________________________ > On Mon, 23 Nov 1998, [iso-8859-1] Åse Andersson wrote: > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I found some toxicity data on Chlorine Dioxide: > > It is toxic to inhale (Inhalation rat, LC50, 2 hours: 0.73 mg/l) and to consume. > > It is also irritant to eyes and skin. > > I couldn't find any eco-toxic data, which doesn't necessarily mean it is > > not eco-toxic. > > > > If the paint contains less than 5 % ClO2 it maybe wouldn't be called "toxic", but > > it still contains a toxic substance and should at least be called "irritant". > > > > Regards, > > > > Åse Andersson > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > Department of Building Materials > > Chalmers University of Technology > > 412 96 Göteborg > > Sweden > > Phone: +46-31-772 2333 > > Fax: +46-31-772 2296 > > > > ________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 11:43:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA19274 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:43:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07871; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:27:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:23:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07409 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:23:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu (eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.223]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07402 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:23:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin024.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.34]) by eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA26988; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:36:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36598E86.489E@uidaho.edu> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 08:34:14 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: David Melchert , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: generator for the present not the past References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5076 The University of Idaho Agricultural Engineering Department has been doing research on biodiesel made from rapeseed (canola) for many years with proven prototypes in J.R. Simplot's truck fleet among others. The exhaust smells like french fries - though in cold weather the fuel tank requires a bit of heat to keep it liquid. Kurt Rathmann Moscow, Idaho Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > Seth or David: "BioDiesel" is fuel for diesel generators made from > soyabeans. We investigated this application for an office tower to replace ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 12:17:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20139 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11190; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:02:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:57:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09836 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:56:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09823 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:56:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-02-77.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.128.77]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA10765; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:10:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:16:11 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE16DB.0EA69680.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'John Salmen'" , Renewable News Network Cc: "malcolm.scott@which.net" , Greenbuilding Subject: RE: GBlist: Mass Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:10:31 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5077 On Wednesday, November 18, 1998 10:51 AM, John Salmen [SMTP:terrain@cow-net.com] wrote: > Article by Hans Eek in Swedish Building Research (Swedish council for building > research). ...... John provided details of a very well -insulated house > Additional mass other than that of conventional plasterboard over light frame was not > considered necessary as the building is less sensitive to exterior fluctuations > (useful only to temper fluctuations of extreme cold snaps over long periods of time). The reason that plasterboard may not be needed is twofold. One, as the heat loss coefficient of a building decreases, the amount of mass needed to do god things decreases. So a poorly insulated 2x4 house needs lots of extra mass. An airtight and well-insulated ICF home (for example) needs less, perhaps just a slab on grade over half the building floor area. If we cut the heat loss of a building to less than half of an R2000 home, little extra (althoug still some, like the slab used in the Swedish house?) is needed. As we approach zero energy homes, the heat loss coefficient is so low, that gypsum, furniture and other contents may indeed be all the mass needed. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 12:17:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20137 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:17:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11223; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:02:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:57:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09845 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:57:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09831 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:56:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-02-77.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.128.77]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA10840; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:10:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:16:17 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE16DB.128C8340.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Bruce Sullivan'" , Green Building Subject: RE: GBlist: Eco-friendly antimicrobial paints? Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:17:40 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5078 I head about this paint (I think it was this paint) last year from a number of people, who all introduced it as a limewash that did not carbonate, ie maintained its pH at above 10+ for years. This sounds to me to be the safest way of making an anti-microbial paint that is still healthy for humans and the environment and does not require the work or whitewashing every 6 months. Anybody know if this is a different paint? ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 12:17:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20151 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:17:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11238; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:02:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:57:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09900 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:57:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09895 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:57:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-02-77.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.128.77]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA10982; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:10:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:16:38 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE16DB.1EA17820.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'John Salmen'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Airtight Drywall Sheathing Approach Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:14:15 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5079 On Wednesday, November 18, 1998 9:56 AM, John Salmen [SMTP:terrain@cow-net.com] wrote: (snipped) > life. They have no immediate plans of marketing it again. There must be > little interest in exterior systems that use sheathing as the barrier to > sustain the need for wider tape. John, airtight sheathing is practically the standard approach now in better homes in the Waterloo Region. There is no need for a wider tape in most applications. I was not sure why you needed 4" wide, but assumed you had a good reason. I spoke to our regional 3M guy in Ottawa the other day, and he said that you should find your distributor, and either buy the 48" wide strips that the tape rolls come in and cut them up yourself OR maybe even convince the distributor to do it for you. So long as you are buying a few dozen rolls he though this should be reasonable. The 3M tape that is the same as the former Dupont product in Canada is number 5806. (it does not have the CCMC number on it, but do you care?) ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 12:17:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20184 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:17:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11345; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:02:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:57:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09881 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:57:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09869 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:57:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-02-77.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.128.77]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA10926; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:10:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:16:29 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE16DB.197CA2C0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Dean Still'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: "Mass" issue Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 11:43:01 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5080 On Sunday, November 22, 1998 2:21 PM, Dean Still [SMTP:dstill@epud.org] wrote: > Dear Alex Wilson and Bion Howard, > > Bion writes that he is looking for closure on the mass thread. I propose > that one of the quickest ways to gain a consensus on current opinion is for > someone to list what mass supposedly does in a building. Then the educated > community can chime in and we all will gain a feeling for the state of > knowledge. To further this goal, I'll list what I think about thermal mass > and invite you both and others to clarify. > > Like Bion, I feel that the role of thermal mass in buildings is important > and yet very muddy since, IMO, passive solar buildings can be of two > distinct types. The glass and mass model, in heating mode, fills the > interior with too much sunshine, the mass moderates its effect and retains > some heat to coast the building through nightime when a lot of heat leaves > through the windows. > > The light and tight house, on the other hand, is superinsulated/airtight > and doesn't feature so much south facing glass. These features moderate > temperature swings as the mass does in glass and mass types. The small > amount of admitted sunlight assists to warm the house but no, or little, > added mass is needed. Shading in both types of houses helps with potential > overheating. The difference between the light/tight and glass/mass houses is more the amount of mass, not the need and benefit of it. Most of the energy analysis of houses I have conducted have been light/tight houses, and they show a tremendous benefit (easily 10% energy savings) to, for example, a 4" slab. > I understood the EBN article to conclude that R value is not enhanced by > added thermal mass unless there are large diurnal swings in external > temperature above and below the desired interior temperature. So in a well > insulated house adding mass may make economic sense in the Southwest or > desert regions but not in places like Oregon, where I live, where daily > temperatures are always below the desired interior temperature. This was a concern I had about the EBN article. Mass in the enclosure walls serves to moderate temp flows in and out of the house, and so show the biggest benefit in climates with large diurnal swings, or solar gain onto the walls during heating season. BUT, mass within the enclosure plays a different role. It stores heat from internal high temp occasions (sun shinging, lots of internal gains) and releases them in cool. This is a benefit completely seperate from enclosure wall mass. In fact, in a cold climate, it is often the best economically to provide a light enclosure with lots of mass internally. Some of the new ICF and insulated block systems allow one to provide mass in the enclosure without a lot of expense though and so allows for an upgrde of the total energy performnce when combined with internal mass. > Do we all agree that a light and tight house can do very nicely without > added thermal mass? I can not. Basic solar design principles show that mass is very much necessary for you to be able to capture the solar energy provided by the normal amount of windows even in what you might call a superinsulated house. Now what the Swedes/Canadians call a super low energy house will not need quite as much mass, but will still benefit for some. See also: ?Passive Solar House Designs for Canada. Report to Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp., by Allen Associates and Marbek Resource Consultants, Ottawa, 1989. This shows a graph of house energy savings as a function of window area, window quality, and mass. Also try looking up ? Passive Solar Handbook. California Energy Commission, Sacramento, California, 1980. which is a nice guide that shows the impact of all kinds of variables in a range of climates (including cold moutain climates). The effect of mass is pronounced, and the effect is has on cooling will blow you away. One of the frustrating things for me is that the information is out there is spades, and has been for many years. Simple inexpensive simulation programs are available. Searching out and using these resources is really the only good way to understand how and why mass works. > The EBN article does not, however, IMO, shed much light on the amount of > mass needed in a mass and glass house to moderate temperature rise and > fall. CMHC has a nice 20 page booklet which allows for the graphical calculation of the passive solar and total heat balance of Canadian houses, and includes means of assessing the temp swings. The booklet is called GRAPHEAT, and it so nice becuase BEG made it. Many computer models, like DOE2.1 and ENERPASS (a $400 bargain) account explicitly for the mass in walls and floors. > 1.) what percentage of sunlight btu's end up stored in thermal mass by > day's end and 2.) How does indirectly heated mass warm itself, by > %radiation, %conduction, %convection and 3.) How to size internal thermal > mass to the amount of average insolation? 4.) Does too much thermal mass > have a cooling effect? Etc. These are good questions to which the answer is -- it depends. Only number 4 is possible to answer in a general way. No, too much mass does not cause cooling (if only it did, we could make very heavy fridges with no power required) ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 12:48:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21010 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:48:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13617; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:32:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:28:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13236 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:28:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from sims-ha.videotron.net (faure.videotron.net [205.151.222.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13228 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:27:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from videotron.ca (ppp104.132.mmtl.videotron.net) by sims-ha.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34) with ESMTP id <0F2V006FAYASY5@sims-ha.videotron.net> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:37:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 05:29:27 -0500 From: Wade Eide Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: CO2 & stucco To: Renewable News Network Cc: Patrick Pierquet , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Message-id: <36569607.4B9ABA6B@videotron.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5081 Renewable News Network wrote: > (...) > By far the better solution, on the scale of things, if one wants to deal > with GHG emissions, is to prevent adding CO2 to the environment through > the displacement of fossil fuel use with renewable solar energy > applications. ...or is this too obvious? > > Yours truly, > Ross > It would almost appear that it is too obvious, Ross. I am definitely in favour of a thorough assessment of the environmental impacts all the materials that we use in construction, but let's not get too carried away with our positivist fantasies in thinking that the skin of a building is going to have some significant role to play in regulating GHG on a global scale. My guess is that the tree planted next to a building is going to absorb a whole lot more CO2 than its stucco finish. And as someone else has already pointed out, maybe we could do a lot more good by learning how to build less. -- Wade Eide, architect, Montréal Atelier BRAQ VéloVille ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 13:41:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22044 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:41:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17786; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:25:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:21:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17105 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:21:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from wakko.efn.org (root@wakko.efn.org [206.163.176.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17087 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 13:20:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip443.efn.org [206.163.181.187]) by wakko.efn.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA02164 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:34:02 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: Subject: GBlist: slideshow tour report Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:33:33 -0800 Message-ID: <01be1707$64fd89e0$a2b5a3ce@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0056_01BE16C4.56DA49E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5082 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BE16C4.56DA49E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Friends, I just finished a five-city tour of my slideshow entitled, "Natural = Building and Social Justice". In five days I shared what I have to say = with people in Corvallis & Bend, Oregon, Moscow, Idaho, and Spokane & = Ellensburg, Washington. As far as I was able to tell, my message of = far-reaching change toward real sustainability and social equity was = enthusiastically received everywhere I went. It=92s conceivable that two = new EcoBuilding Guild chapters will form in Bend and Ellensburg = resulting from the tour. Almost 200 people saw my presentation. When I got back, there were emails waiting for me from Vancourer, BC and = Hopland, CA. I=92m now emboldened to set up a more ambitious tour = extending into British Colombia and California. I=92m seeking contacts = for environmental groups up and down western North America that would = like to host me in their cities. As long as I=92m going to drive those = miles, I wish to have my presentation seen by as many people as = possible. Ideally, I would drive no more than two hours per day =96 = stopping at every little city along the way. Much of the fun of the last = tour was all the interesting people that I met. They put me up in their = homes and fed me. They=92ll remain my friends. This time, in addition to = being housed and fed, I would like to start to be paid a little bit of = money =96 an amount surely affordable by any group. Cities that I would like to present in include: In Washington: Olympia Port Angeles Seattle Bellingham In Oregon: Portland Grant=92s Pass Medford Ashland In California: Mount Shasta City Redding Santa Rosa San Rafael San Francisco Berkeley San Jose Salinas San Luis Obispo Santa Barbara Los Angeles --- well, you get the idea For a bio and description of my slideshow, please check out my little = web site at: www.efn.org/~robtb/ Thanks for whatever help anyone can provide, Robert Bolman 888 Almaden At Eugene, OR 97402 541-344-7196 ------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BE16C4.56DA49E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Friends,

I just finished a five-city tour of my slideshow entitled, = "Natural=20 Building and Social Justice". In five days I shared what I have to = say with=20 people in Corvallis & Bend, Oregon, Moscow, Idaho, and Spokane & = Ellensburg, Washington. As far as I was able to tell, my message of = far-reaching=20 change toward real sustainability and social equity was enthusiastically = received everywhere I went. It’s conceivable that two new = EcoBuilding=20 Guild chapters will form in Bend and Ellensburg resulting from the tour. = Almost=20 200 people saw my presentation.

When I got back, there were emails waiting for me from Vancourer, BC = and=20 Hopland, CA. I’m now emboldened to set up a more ambitious tour = extending=20 into British Colombia and California. I’m seeking contacts for=20 environmental groups up and down western North America that would like = to host=20 me in their cities. As long as I’m going to drive those miles, I = wish to=20 have my presentation seen by as many people as possible. Ideally, I = would drive=20 no more than two hours per day – stopping at every little city = along the=20 way. Much of the fun of the last tour was all the interesting people = that I met.=20 They put me up in their homes and fed me. They’ll remain my = friends. This=20 time, in addition to being housed and fed, I would like to start to be = paid a=20 little bit of money – an amount surely affordable by any = group.

Cities that I would like to present in include:

In Washington:

Olympia

Port Angeles

Seattle

Bellingham

In Oregon:

Portland

Grant’s Pass

Medford

Ashland

In California:

Mount Shasta City

Redding

Santa Rosa

San Rafael

San Francisco

Berkeley

San Jose

Salinas

San Luis Obispo

Santa Barbara

Los Angeles

--- well, you get the idea

For a bio and description of my slideshow, please check out my little = web=20 site at: www.efn.org/~robtb/

Thanks for whatever help anyone can provide,

Robert Bolman

888 Almaden At

Eugene, OR 97402

541-344-7196

------=_NextPart_000_0056_01BE16C4.56DA49E0-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 15:13:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA24570 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:13:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24961; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:57:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:53:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24525 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:53:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24509 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:53:27 -0500 (EST) From: RodLambert@aol.com Received: from RodLambert@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1PXRa16946 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:06:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <45c7edfd.3659c035@aol.com> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 15:06:13 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco-friendly antimicrobial (paints) - oxymoron? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5083 I am no biologist but I tend to want to put this line of thinking in the same basket as antibacterial soaps and the general overuse of antibiotics. Given that microbes can change to new organisms so quickly ( someone said that bacteria can change in form in one day about as much as humans can in a million years! ) it seems that the concern that a major affect of antibiotic use is simply to breed more virulent organisms, is well founded. If you use antibacterial materials all you can really be sure of is that the bacterial populations will gradually become more malignant. That is not to say that there is no use for antibacterials just that there needs to be a more wholistic thinking associated with them. Its no accident that hospitals are the breeding grounds of some of the most resistant bacteria. I continue to be impressed by the intelligent and considered responses that this list generates. (with a special thanks to to John Straube) Rod Rod Lambert Development Management Second Neighborhood Group Ecovillage at Ithaca, NY where we are planning the second cluster of up to 5 such clusters surrounding a village green. ( in the "most enlightened town in America" - Unte Reader ) they wouldn't print it if it weren't true! Yes we welcome visitors/potential neighbors. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 16:57:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA27005 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:57:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA01050; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:37:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00671 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:37:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from coke.housing.qld.gov.au (firewall-user@coke.housing.qld.gov.au [203.63.159.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00654 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 16:37:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by coke.housing.qld.gov.au; id HAA20807; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:50:41 +1000 (EST) Received: from ash.prod.housing.qld.gov.au(161.143.128.3) by coke.housing.qld.gov.au via smap (4.0a) id xma020805; Tue, 24 Nov 98 07:50:39 +1000 Received: from sv20messaging.corporate.pwh.qld.gov.au (sv20messaging.corporate.pwh.qld.gov.au [147.132.211.9]) by ash.prod.housing.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA27393 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:50:35 +1000 (EST) Received: by sv20messaging.corporate.pwh.qld.gov.au with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id <4BPSA90B>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:50:02 +1000 Message-ID: <2131677BF5DFD111B88D00805FAD3C6F9482E3@sv20messaging.corporate.pwh.qld.gov.au> From: GREENAWAY Chris J To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Thermal Mass Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:50:01 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5084 Mike Appreciate the feedback and will check out your lead on the Uni of New Mexico. There is a great deal of interest in alternative design and material use in Australia. The problem however is two-fold. Firstly, virtually none is within the mainstream construction 'comfort zone' of our builders, designers and so forth. Secondly, those that are experimenting are usually interested in wider matters than just the building itself - they tend to be lifestylers who are not necessarily interested in rigorous experimentation and measurement. You are right - the feel good factor is all important. However its not something I can run with in my capacity as policy advisor within Government... There is an increasing literature generated in the alternative press; perhaps it will eventually spill over into mainstream practice. Chris Greenaway > Built Environment Research Unit > Dept Public Works > Brisbane Queensland Australia > ---------- > From: Mike Carter and Carol Cannon[SMTP:cobcrew@sprynet.com] > Sent: Monday, November 23, 1998 11:37 PM > To: GREENAWAY Chris J > Subject: Re: GBlist: Thermal Mass > > There were studies done for different climatic regions by the Univ. of New > Mexico in the late 70's, quoted in the book "Adobe and Rammed Earth", > which > included a large number of building design factors in their thermal > modeling. We have a hot, humid climate here most of the year and get a > lot > of comfort from our 130 tons+ of thermal mass during the summer. The > buildings have been designed to minimize solar gain and the concrete slabs > are direct-coupled to earth (no insulation). From what I read there is a > lot of earth building going on in Australia. The best data is sometimes > "how does it feel?" > > Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: GREENAWAY Chris J > To: 'greenbuilding@crest.org' > Date: Tuesday, November 17, 1998 10:16 PM > Subject: GBlist: Thermal Mass > > > >John Straube > > > >You recently wrote: > > > >"But simulation after simulation and field energy > >> monitoring after field monitoring has shown that thermal mass in a > normal > >> home or office does save energy." > >> > >Is the field data readily available? Here in Queensland, Australia we're > >still wrestling with the pros and cons of incorporating thermal mass. > The > >state has a wide range of climatic conditions from arid through to > tropical > >so creating generic public policy is a tad difficult. > > > >Can you or anyone else direct me to some real data rather than the > profusion > >of theory? > > > >Chris Greenaway > >Built Environment Research Unit > >Dept Public Works > >Brisbane > >Queensland > >Australia > > > >greenawaycj@corporate.pwh.qld.gov.au > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 18:07:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA28086 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 18:07:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA04950; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:51:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:47:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04524 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:47:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from sims-ha.videotron.net (faure.videotron.net [205.151.222.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04512 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:47:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from videotron.ca (ppp059.124.mmtl.videotron.net) by sims-ha.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34) with ESMTP id <0F2W00J06D67N9@sims-ha.videotron.net> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:59:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:41:26 -0500 From: Wade Eide Subject: Re: GBlist: generator for the present not the past To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Cc: David Melchert , greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <3659E496.B765817F@videotron.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5085 "Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: > > "BioDiesel" is fuel for diesel generators made from > soyabeans. How about using agricultural land to produce fuel that can be metabolized in the bodies of humans rather than burnt in Diesel engines? Just an idea. -- Wade Eide, architect, Montréal Atelier BRAQ VéloVille ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 21:36:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA00839 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16199; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:17:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15769 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from bminet.bminet.com (root@console.bminet.com [207.170.27.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15756 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:17:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from clearned.bminet.com (dial174.bminet.com [207.170.27.174]) by bminet.bminet.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA11315; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 20:46:50 -0600 Message-Id: <199811240246.UAA11315@bminet.bminet.com> From: "Chuck Learned" To: "Wade Eide" , "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Cc: "David Melchert" , Subject: Re: GBlist: generator for the present not the past Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 20:24:14 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5086 I think that BioDiesel has its place. At the moment there is plenty of space to grow food, its that most of it goes to feeding animals. The amount of food that can be generated off of a few acres of intensively grown produce is fantastic. The other problem of course is massive waste of food as so much is thrown out. In Wisconsin 99% of the crops feed animals. Its just a matter of priorities. Sunflowers can be grown in difficult soils and used for BioDiesel. If we could get even 10-20% of our fuels this way, it would make a significant difference. Jorg, I visited the Geet website and saw that they had a 5kW unit for $1350.00. Hmmm, does it do what they say it will. I also learned of the thermoelectric unit being offered soon through Jade Mountain . 27lbs, no noise, no vibrations, 5kw with excess heat as a bi-product for cooking they say. Too good to be true.....$980.00 I was thinking of using BioDiesel from french fry grease, if I could get somebody to build me the fat extractor..... ---------- From: Wade Eide To: Jorg D. Ostrowski Cc: David Melchert ; greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: generator for the present not the past Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 4:41 PM "Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: > > "BioDiesel" is fuel for diesel generators made from > soyabeans. How about using agricultural land to produce fuel that can be metabolized in the bodies of humans rather than burnt in Diesel engines? Just an idea. -- Wade Eide, architect, Montréal Atelier BRAQ VéloVille ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ---------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 22:41:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA02080 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:41:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA19310; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:25:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:22:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19046 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:21:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19042 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:21:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.67] (rkd043.acadia.net [208.244.128.67]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA21846 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:35:07 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:34:11 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Personal CO2 calculators Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5087 The thread about CO2 sequestering has been interesting. A few folks have mentioned that emitting less CO2 seems more sensible than finding technical means to sequester it after it has been emitted. Several folks mentioned that the problem would be more tractable if the volumes involved weren't so huge. I like ideas like this because they point toward the idea of "throughput" - the amount of material or energy flowing through a system through time. It also points to the idea that a limit to throughput can either be at the source or at the sink - for instance, you can be limited by the amount of fossil fuel or by the atmosphere. If you believe in the second law of thermodynamics (and I hope you do), then a few minutes of thought will convince you that a sustainable civilization needs to keep "throughput" within certain limits. The idea of exponentially increasing amounts of stuff flowing through the world begins to look deadly. But that's pretty abstract. To help make things more personal, and to help this thread along, let me recommend a nifty web site: http://www.amfor.org/climate/amforcalc.html This has a simplified household CO2 calculator, enabling you to estimate how much CO2 you personally produce, and how many trees a year you must plant to break even. For example, I learned from this site that our household must plant about 55 trees a year to balance our CO2 emissions. I was happy to realize that we've actually done that! (In the past 11 years, I've planted about 1000 trees, of which about 700 have lived.) But we're running out of land - so we're going to have to reduce our emissions further and start funding tree-planting efforts elsewhere. Also, the web site is a fairly crude estimate, and doesn't take into account indirect CO2 emissions, from manufacturing, military junkets taken for our benefit, etc., etc. But it's a start, and we'd better start somewhere. Thinking about all this, I realized that the most ecologically beneficial things I've done have been to superinsulate my house, to plant trees, to move my office home to avoid driving, and to have had a vasectomy. I don't think the stucco I've troweled on in my life has made much difference. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 23:04:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA02379 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:04:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA20518; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:49:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:45:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA20163 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:45:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20159 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:45:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-29-163.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.133.163]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA20443; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:58:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:04:19 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE1735.999D9720.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Patrick Pierquet'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: CO2 & stucco Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:25:57 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5088 On Monday, November 23, 1998 9:52 AM, Patrick Pierquet [SMTP:ppierquet@Teltech.com] wrote: > stucco/cement/concrete, in real-world situations. The concrete handbook I > have, published by the Amer. Concrete Assoc., states that this > process(called "carbonation", I believe) occurs only in the outermost 0.1 > inch of concrete....it does not occur throughout the entire thickness of the > material. I would assume the same holds true for stucco. This being the This is flatly and completely false. Carbonation will occur to infinite depth in infinite time. How much occurs how quickly depends pimarily on the CO2 pemeance of the material, its temp and RH. Stucco will and does carbonate up to 1 " in less than 10 years. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 23:46:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03130 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:46:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA22805; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:31:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:27:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA22474 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:27:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA22469 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:27:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id XAA26979; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA20983; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:40:24 -0500 Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:40:23 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com Reply-To: Renewable News Network To: Wade Eide Cc: Patrick Pierquet , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: CO2, stucco, and renewable solar displacement of fossil fuel use In-Reply-To: <36569607.4B9ABA6B@videotron.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id XAA22471 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5089 Hello Wade, If the idea that the displacement of fossil fuel use with renewable solar energy applications is so obviously a good one, then why isn't it happening in a big way? I'd have to say that sometimes the obvious needs to be stated, partly because so many interests are allied against good work, but also, because, if and when, the obvious truths are known by a critical mass of building industry members, then we still must move from that proper accessment of global problems and particular solutions toward the deployment and implementation of the best designs and components, through the development of a sustainable renewable energy infrastructure. I do think that the re-design of buildings can play a significant role in regulating GHG on a global scale. It is a positive fantasy, but regular South facing windows already assume 1 percent of the heating load, and that's a start with old standard building practise. 40 percent of the New England region's energy budget goes to home heating oil for buildings, so there is, not only, room for improvement in building design, but room for significant impact overall from this sector of the economy. Buildings are also good learning environments, so their influence goes beyond their actual associated energy use. -Ross On Sat, 21 Nov 1998, Wade Eide wrote: > > Renewable News Network wrote: > > > (...) > > By far the better solution, on the scale of things, if one wants to deal > > with GHG emissions, is to prevent adding CO2 to the environment through > > the displacement of fossil fuel use with renewable solar energy > > applications. ...or is this too obvious? > > > > Yours truly, > > Ross > > > > It would almost appear that it is too obvious, Ross. I am definitely in > favour of a thorough assessment of the environmental impacts all the > materials that we use in construction, but let's not get too carried > away with our positivist fantasies in thinking that the skin of a > building is going to have some significant role to play in regulating > GHG on a global scale. My guess is that the tree planted next to a > building is going to absorb a whole lot more CO2 than its stucco finish. > And as someone else has already pointed out, maybe we could do a lot > more good by learning how to build less. > > -- > Wade Eide, architect, Montréal > Atelier BRAQ > VéloVille > Add the following to your mailing list, and send newsletters, press releases, announcements, and notices of events to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 For edited news you can RE-use, send "subscribe er-list" for the "Environmental Review" and/or "subscribe solar_utilities" for info on Solar Utilities, to: . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 23 23:57:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA02379 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:04:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA20518; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:49:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:45:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA20163 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:45:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20159 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:45:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-29-163.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.133.163]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA20443; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 22:58:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:04:19 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE1735.999D9720.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Patrick Pierquet'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: CO2 & stucco Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:25:57 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5090 On Monday, November 23, 1998 9:52 AM, Patrick Pierquet [SMTP:ppierquet@Teltech.com] wrote: > stucco/cement/concrete, in real-world situations. The concrete handbook I > have, published by the Amer. Concrete Assoc., states that this > process(called "carbonation", I believe) occurs only in the outermost 0.1 > inch of concrete....it does not occur throughout the entire thickness of the > material. I would assume the same holds true for stucco. This being the This is flatly and completely false. Carbonation will occur to infinite depth in infinite time. How much occurs how quickly depends pimarily on the CO2 pemeance of the material, its temp and RH. Stucco will and does carbonate up to 1 " in less than 10 years. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 00:12:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA03399 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 00:12:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA24180; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:57:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:53:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23889 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:53:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23884 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 23:53:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip12.ivnet.net [206.101.73.172]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA14607; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 19:57:19 -0800 Message-ID: <365A3DCB.E889E1F9@ivnet.net> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 21:02:03 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RodLambert@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco-friendly antimicrobial (paints) - oxymoron? References: <45c7edfd.3659c035@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5091 RodLambert@aol.com wrote: > > I am no biologist but I tend to want to put this line of thinking in the same > basket as antibacterial soaps and the general overuse of antibiotics. It's not quite the same thing. All paints have to have some toxicity. If they weren't toxic, we would call them food. And so would other things. So if we are trying to preserve wood on the exterior of a building, painting it with a paint that does not immediately turn black with mildew is a good idea. Many interior rated paints will do that quickly. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 07:51:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA07388 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:51:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA07595; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:35:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:31:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA07306 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:31:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07298 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:31:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA08325 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 06:44:04 -0600 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 06:41:37 -0600 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Re: CO2 & stucco Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 06:41:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5092 > -----Original Message----- > > Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 12:25:57 -0500 > From: John Straube > Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: CO2 & stucco > > On Monday, November 23, 1998 9:52 AM, Patrick Pierquet > [SMTP:ppierquet@Teltech.com] wrote: > > stucco/cement/concrete, in real-world situations. The concrete handbook > > I > > have, published by the Amer. Concrete Assoc., states that this > > process(called "carbonation", I believe) occurs only in the outermost > 0.1 > > inch of concrete....it does not occur throughout the entire thickness of > > the > > material. I would assume the same holds true for stucco. This being > the > This is flatly and completely false. Carbonation will occur to infinite > depth in infinite time. How much occurs how quickly depends pimarily on > the CO2 pemeance of the material, its temp and RH. Stucco will and does > carbonate up to 1 " in less than 10 years. > > - ------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube > > Well, John, I don't want to be passing around any false information. I went back to the source("Design and Control of Concrete Mixtures", 13th Ed., by the Portland Cement Assoc.) Here's what they say(page 72): "Carbonation of concrete is a process by which carbon dioxide from the air penetrates the concrete and reacts with the hydroxides, such as calcium hydroxide, to form carbonates...The amount of carbonation is significantly increased in concretes with a high water-cement ratio, low cement content, short curing period, low strength, and highly permeable or porous paste. The depth of carbonation of good quality, well-cured concrete is generally of little practical significance." (my emphasis) and on page 160, "The depth of the carbonation reaction is very shallow(usually less than 0.1 inches, depending on age and exposure conditions) in dense, good quality concrete." Hope this helps. - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 08:01:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA07491 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:01:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA08232; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:46:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:42:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA07855 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:42:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from sims-ha.videotron.net (faure.videotron.net [205.151.222.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA07851 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:42:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from k8j5i4 (ppp168.245.mmtl.videotron.net) by sims-ha.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34) with SMTP id <0F2X00696FWW1M@sims-ha.videotron.net> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 07:55:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:02:08 -0500 From: Wade Eide Subject: Re: GBlist: CO2, stucco, and renewable solar displacement of fossil fuel use To: Renewable News Network Cc: Patrick Pierquet , greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <002101be17aa$a58e5400$03000004@k8j5i4> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5093 Hello Ross, I very much agree with you. What is needed in building design is a more global approach, and the most important thing that we can do is to reduce or eliminate GHG emissions by the methods that you allude to. That's why I thought that the thread on stucco was much to narrowly focussed; a fix, and in my opinion, a rather insignificant one, to much bigger problem. An accounting of the number of molecules of CO2 sequestered in a cubic cm of stucco is not going to help us much if we lose sight of the larger context. You are right in reminding us of that larger context. Yours, Wade -----Original Message----- From: Renewable News Network To: Wade Eide Cc: Patrick Pierquet ; 'greenbuilding@crest.org' Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 11:41 PM Subject: GBlist: CO2, stucco, and renewable solar displacement of fossil fuel use Hello Wade, If the idea that the displacement of fossil fuel use with renewable solar energy applications is so obviously a good one, then why isn't it happening in a big way? I'd have to say that sometimes the obvious needs to be stated, partly because so many interests are allied against good work, but also, because, if and when, the obvious truths are known by a critical mass of building industry members, then we still must move from that proper accessment of global problems and particular solutions toward the deployment and implementation of the best designs and components, through the development of a sustainable renewable energy infrastructure. I do think that the re-design of buildings can play a significant role in regulating GHG on a global scale. It is a positive fantasy, but regular South facing windows already assume 1 percent of the heating load, and that's a start with old standard building practise. 40 percent of the New England region's energy budget goes to home heating oil for buildings, so there is, not only, room for improvement in building design, but room for significant impact overall from this sector of the economy. Buildings are also good learning environments, so their influence goes beyond their actual associated energy use. -Ross On Sat, 21 Nov 1998, Wade Eide wrote: > > Renewable News Network wrote: > > > (...) > > By far the better solution, on the scale of things, if one wants to deal > > with GHG emissions, is to prevent adding CO2 to the environment through > > the displacement of fossil fuel use with renewable solar energy > > applications. ...or is this too obvious? > > > > Yours truly, > > Ross > > > > It would almost appear that it is too obvious, Ross. I am definitely in > favour of a thorough assessment of the environmental impacts all the > materials that we use in construction, but let's not get too carried > away with our positivist fantasies in thinking that the skin of a > building is going to have some significant role to play in regulating > GHG on a global scale. My guess is that the tree planted next to a > building is going to absorb a whole lot more CO2 than its stucco finish. > And as someone else has already pointed out, maybe we could do a lot > more good by learning how to build less. > > -- > Wade Eide, architect, Montréal > Atelier BRAQ > VéloVille > Add the following to your mailing list, and send newsletters, press releases, announcements, and notices of events to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 For edited news you can RE-use, send "subscribe er-list" for the "Environmental Review" and/or "subscribe solar_utilities" for info on Solar Utilities, to: . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 08:21:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA07721 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10150; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:06:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:02:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09861 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:02:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from sims-ha.videotron.net (faure.videotron.net [205.151.222.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09845 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:02:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from k8j5i4 (ppp168.245.mmtl.videotron.net) by sims-ha.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34) with SMTP id <0F2X0084OGRTTO@sims-ha.videotron.net> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:14:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:20:41 -0500 From: Wade Eide Subject: Re: GBlist: generator for the present not the past To: Chuck Learned , "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Cc: David Melchert , greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <002801be17ad$3cccfa40$03000004@k8j5i4> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 X-Priority: 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5094 Burning used cooking oil in a Diesel engine is probably an ecologically sound idea. It certainly falls into the category of "recycling". (Is there any evidence that burning French fry grease would produce fewer GHGs?) But, it seems to me, there is a serious ethical problem with putting valuable agricultural land into the production of Diesel fuel. I quite agree that using farm land for the almost exclusive production of cattle feed is not the most effective means of producing food for humans, but that, along with the waste of food, is a different issue. When a very significant proportion of the world's population is under-nourished or mal-nourished, I think that we as over-fed Americans are on very shaky ethical ground when we start thinking that it's okay to burn our food in cars or Diesel-electric generators. Wade Eide, Montreal -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Learned To: Wade Eide ; Jorg D. Ostrowski Cc: David Melchert ; greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Monday, November 23, 1998 9:29 PM Subject: Re: GBlist: generator for the present not the past I think that BioDiesel has its place. At the moment there is plenty of space to grow food, its that most of it goes to feeding animals. The amount of food that can be generated off of a few acres of intensively grown produce is fantastic. The other problem of course is massive waste of food as so much is thrown out. In Wisconsin 99% of the crops feed animals. Its just a matter of priorities. Sunflowers can be grown in difficult soils and used for BioDiesel. If we could get even 10-20% of our fuels this way, it would make a significant difference. Jorg, I visited the Geet website and saw that they had a 5kW unit for $1350.00. Hmmm, does it do what they say it will. I also learned of the thermoelectric unit being offered soon through Jade Mountain . 27lbs, no noise, no vibrations, 5kw with excess heat as a bi-product for cooking they say. Too good to be true.....$980.00 I was thinking of using BioDiesel from french fry grease, if I could get somebody to build me the fat extractor..... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 08:30:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA07803 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:30:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10728; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:11:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA10433 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:11:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA10429 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:11:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA12-p44.dreamscape.com [209.4.255.44]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA07544; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:24:22 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sA12-p44.dreamscape.com [209.4.255.44] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:24:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <365AB306.C9F320DA@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:22:14 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wade Eide CC: Renewable News Network , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: CO2, stucco, and renewable solar displacement of fossil fuel use References: <002101be17aa$a58e5400$03000004@k8j5i4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5095 I don't understand how this thread has become so divisive, no one is saying that CO2 sequestration in building materials is a stand alone solution to greenhouse gasses. I can't imagine anyone on this list being so naive as to propose this as an alternative to reforestation or energy conservation. I do think it is naive, in the extreme, to assume that reforestation and energy conservation are the only issues that need be discussed in our feeble attempts to find holistic, unified methods of combating this problem. It seems extremely short sighted to close out any discussion of any potentially beneficial process/product/methodolgy that might contain the seeds of fruitful scientific exploration. If everyone on our planet followed David Foley's example and planted enough trees to offset their carbon production, then this idea of building with materials that perhaps absorb CO2 might be unnecessary, but last I checked the rain forests were still burning. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design Earlville, NY Wade Eide wrote: > > Hello Ross, > > I very much agree with you. What is needed in building design is a more > global approach, and the most important thing that we can do is to reduce or > eliminate GHG emissions by the methods that you allude to. That's why I > thought that the thread on stucco was much to narrowly focussed; a fix, and > in my opinion, a rather insignificant one, to much bigger problem. An > accounting of the number of molecules of CO2 sequestered in a cubic cm of > stucco is not going to help us much if we lose sight of the larger context. > You are right in reminding us of that larger context. > > Yours, > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 08:54:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08180 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:54:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12093; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:39:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:35:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11871 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:35:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from clover.sover.net (root@old-clover.sover.net [204.71.16.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA11866 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:35:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by clover.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA00388 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:48:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.143] (pm0a26.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.90]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA13163 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:48:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:48:32 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net): [207.136.199.143] from 207.136.199.90 by alex@ebuild.com for on Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:48:32 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199811240246.UAA11315@bminet.bminet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: generator for the present not the past Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5096 At 8:24 PM -0600 11/23/98, Chuck Learned wrote: >I was thinking of using BioDiesel from french fry grease, if I could get >somebody to build me the fat extractor..... A friend in Marlboro, Vermont, Dan MacArthur, has been burning used cooking oil in his diesel VW rabbits for about ten years. I think he uses a 50-50 mixture of the cooking oil and diesel. The cooking oil is from Marlboro College, which has been very glad to get rid of the grease for free. Dan filters it through an old tee-shirt. In the winter, he goes back to standard (winterized) diesel because the vegetable oil doesn't work well at low temperature. -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News Brattleboro, Vermont ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 09:04:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA08328 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:04:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12772; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:49:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:46:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12431 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:45:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12423 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA00542; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:59:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA10017; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:59:13 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:59:13 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Chuck Hinckley Cc: Wade Eide , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: CO2, stucco, and renewable solar displacement of fossil fuel use In-Reply-To: <365AB306.C9F320DA@dreamscape.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5097 Dear Chuck, There are multiple threads here, and this just means that there's a lot to talk about and many of us are interested and want to be/get involved. There is one thread that has gone into great detail on the capacity of stucco to absorb CO2 relative to its thinkness. Better them than me. I want to keep the big picture in mind, and then bring a more highly impacting approach into common practise. But, I have detectd no divisiveness, in terms of any negative connotations, in these fractured discussions, so that's real healthy. In fact, we are reaching a new consensus. Besides, division is natural, and required, at times, in order to study particular questions. And if you are prepared to offer up something regarding "reforestation or energy conservation," please do so. What I'm speaking up for is a new context that explicitly focuses on renewable and sustainable solar energy applications, because I can do something along these lines, and so can most other persons - at least, those, who choose to live and work in buildings that are now using fossil fuels, as the primary energy source. I've planted a few trees, but that's a special area of expertise, and I, for one, am not likely to change careers to go into forestry. I could make demands or otherwise require an owner to reforest a certain area of vacant land in order to offset energy use in a proposed building, but I'd start by designing a building that is a net energy contributor, and that would be a positive and environmentally restorative addition to the eco-sphere. Yours truly, Ross "If oil fell free from the sky, would you use it?" -Toxic Avenger encl: On Tue, 24 Nov 1998, Chuck Hinckley wrote: > I don't understand how this thread has become so divisive, no one is > saying that CO2 sequestration in building materials is a stand alone > solution to greenhouse gasses. I can't imagine anyone on this list being > so naive as to propose this as an alternative to reforestation or energy > conservation. I do think it is naive, in the extreme, to assume that > reforestation and energy conservation are the only issues that need be > discussed in our feeble attempts to find holistic, unified methods of > combating this problem. It seems extremely short sighted to close out > any discussion of any potentially beneficial process/product/methodolgy > that might contain the seeds of fruitful scientific exploration. > > If everyone on our planet followed David Foley's example and planted > enough trees to offset their carbon production, then this idea of > building with materials that perhaps absorb CO2 might be unnecessary, > but last I checked the rain forests were still burning. > > Chuck Hinckley > Ash Creek Design > Earlville, NY > > Wade Eide wrote: > > > > Hello Ross, > > > > I very much agree with you. What is needed in building design is a more > > global approach, and the most important thing that we can do is to reduce or > > eliminate GHG emissions by the methods that you allude to. That's why I > > thought that the thread on stucco was much to narrowly focussed; a fix, and > > in my opinion, a rather insignificant one, to much bigger problem. An > > accounting of the number of molecules of CO2 sequestered in a cubic cm of > > stucco is not going to help us much if we lose sight of the larger context. > > You are right in reminding us of that larger context. > > > > Yours, > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > Please, add me to your mailing list, and send newsletters, press releases, announcements, and notices of events to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 For edited news you can RE-use, send "subscribe er-list" for the "Environmental Review" and/or "subscribe solar_utilities" for info on Solar Utilities, to: . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 09:38:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09061 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:38:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15076; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:23:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:19:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14627 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:19:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14621 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:19:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA00662 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:32:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md15-39.ix.netcom.com(199.182.66.167) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma000617; Tue Nov 24 08:32:04 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981124092959.007412d4@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 09:30:01 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist:
green power Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5098 [Legal Notice: Re-posted for non-profit use under the Federal Library Act] What Color is Your Electricity? A New Report Says it Soon Will Be a Shade of Green BOULDER, Colo., Nov. 23 /PRNewswire/ via NewsEdge Corporation -- Americans will soon enjoy the cleanest air quality they have had for generations as deregulation forces electric utilities to develop "green marketing" strategies to sell their power and gain market share, according to a new report by Resource Data International (RDI), the Boulder, Colo. consulting and energy information firm. ------------------------------------------------ Resource Data International Web site: ------------------------------------------------ As the electric utility industry becomes increasingly deregulated over the next five years, utilities will compete for customers. And, said RDI, many consumers want to buy -- and will pay a higher price for -- "green" electricity that is produced by renewable energy sources, like wind, or by utilities that position themselves as more environmentally-sensitive than competitors. "Consumers will increasingly select electricity providers that offer some environmental advantage over the competition," says Todd Myers, senior consultant at RDI and author of the report. "Because of deregulation, green electricity will become mainstream like recycled paper, even if it costs more, and our air will become cleaner." According to the 50-page RDI report, Green Power: Consumer Choice and Clean Air, green electricity represents one of the fastest growing consumer markets in the U.S. By the year 2003, the green market will capture up to $37.5 billion or half of the $75 billion in annual sales of residential electricity in the U.S., according to RDI. The RDI report says 80% of Americans consider themselves to be environmentalists, compared to 35% in 1973. One result: between 1990 and 1997, sales of organically grown food increased by 23% a year, despite its higher retail cost in stores. In 1997 test market programs, 20% of New Hampshire customers selected a green electricity option, while green electricity captured 31% of the market in Massachusetts, according to the RDI report. Other findings from the RDI report include: -- Utilities will increasingly seek 3rd party endorsements of authenticity from environmental groups or other organizations for their green market products. -- As the green market for electricity grows, it will drive construction of renewable energy plants, like wind and solar-generated electric plants, by 40% over the next 10 years nationally, and by 60% in the Western U.S. -- Utilities will develop brand names for their electricity as they strive to differentiate it from electricity produced by competitors. They must also educate consumers on the sources of electricity. In one recent poll, only 33% of respondents knew the source of their electricity. -- Green marketing strategies will vary. For example, some utilities may offer donations to conservation groups if consumers pay a premium for their electricity; others may advertise nuclear-free power; or electricity generated at plants that are less polluting than those of a neighboring utility; or offer electricity bought from a non-polluting hydro-electric plant hundreds of miles away. -- Green electricity will drive the rapid growth of highly segmented niche markets for power as utilities learn that some consumers are willing to pay a premium for green electricity while others seek the least expensive brand of electricity. -- The cleaner air Americans enjoy will result from a combination of new federal clean air regulations and the development of a green market for electricity. Resource Data International, Inc. is an energy consulting and information firm based in Boulder, Colo. and a unit of FT Energy Group, a division of London-based Pearson, PLC. SOURCE Resource Data International, Inc. /CONTACT: Todd Myers of Resource Data International, 303-444-7788, or tmyers@resdata.com; Bob Wurmstedt, Director of Communications and Publications, Center for the New West, 303-572-5457, or fax, 303-572-5499/ /Web site: http://www.newwest.org/ [Copyright 1998, PR Newswire] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 12:45:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10714 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:13:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21928; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:58:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:53:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21349 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:53:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21344 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:53:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DUT45YAZ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:06:03 EST To: bdhoward@ix.netcom.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 10:51:37 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist:
green power Message-ID: <19981124.111013.8830.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <3.0.32.19981124092959.007412d4@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,8-9,13-17 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5099 Bion et al, I think RDI has been living in the thin air of Denver too long. I would love to believe we live in a perfect world where environmental aspects have as much value to customers as they would like to believe. Unfortunately I am somewhat more jaded and cynical. Unless they see a direct threat to their health, most people will opt to select the "cheapest" not the "greenest". If you don't believe me, I remind you of the results of deregulation of long distance phone service. There are certainly a number of us who would seek the "green" alternative but I highly doubt it is a significant enough segment of the population to have a major impact. Perhaps, on the other hand, this is "the age of Aquarius" and I am just getting too old. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 12:45:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10870 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:24:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22882; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:09:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:05:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22441 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22433 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:05:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.115]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3430100 ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:55:28 -0800 Message-ID: <365ADBE5.F0CED401@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 08:16:37 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Patrick Pierquet CC: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: CO2 & stucco References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5100 I want to repeat what I said in one of the first posts on this issue - that concrete will absorb co2 untill it becomes chemically neutral (turns to stone) John Straube said it much more eloquently "Carbonation will occur to infinite depth in infinite time". These are not practical comments because the process can take forever. There is surprisingly little known about mechanisms that promote carbonation in concrete and it seems there is a fair amount of current research being done on this. Carbonation is generally seen as a negative influence (decrease in ph) as it promotes corrosion of reinforcements which can result in spalling. I imagine that the rates referred to by the Portland Cement assoc. refer to the ideal practical limits of carbonation that would maximize the service life of a concrete structure i.e. that in dense well placed concrete that does not contain alkalis carbonation should not (in most cases [we hope says the assoc.]) exceed 0.1 inch., but then there has been little testing of aged reinforced structures to confirm their hopes. There is work being done on injected and pressurized co2 in concrete to increase its strength and thereby reduce the quantity required and to increase the potential product range of cement products (cement eyeglass frames, etc.) John Patrick Pierquet wrote: > > > Well, John, I don't want to be passing around any false information. > I went back to the source("Design and Control of Concrete Mixtures", 13th > Ed., by the Portland Cement Assoc.) Here's what they say(page 72): > "Carbonation of concrete is a process by which carbon dioxide from the air > penetrates the concrete and reacts with the hydroxides, such as calcium > hydroxide, to form carbonates...The amount of carbonation is significantly > increased in concretes with a high water-cement ratio, low cement content, > short curing period, low strength, and highly permeable or porous paste. > The depth of carbonation of good quality, well-cured concrete is generally > of little practical significance." (my emphasis) and on page 160, "The depth > of the carbonation reaction is very shallow(usually less than 0.1 inches, > depending on age and exposure conditions) in dense, good quality concrete." > > Hope this helps. > > - Patrick Pierquet > ppierquet@teltech.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 13:16:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA02587 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:16:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26779; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:02:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:58:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA26230 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:58:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26220 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:58:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.137.73.74] (henyusr0-a10.herd.tds.net [208.137.73.74]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA28922; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 11:11:25 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:13:50 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: GBlist: generator for the present not the past / biodiesel Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5101 ------------------------------ snip: Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 20:24:14 -0600 From: "Chuck Learned" Subject: Re: GBlist: generator for the present not the past I think that BioDiesel has its place. At the moment there is plenty of space to grow food, its that most of it goes to feeding animals. The amount of food that can be generated off of a few acres of intensively grown produce is fantastic. The other problem of course is massive waste of food as so much is thrown out. In Wisconsin 99% of the crops feed animals. Its just a matter of priorities. Sunflowers can be grown in difficult soils and used for BioDiesel. If we could get even 10-20% of our fuels this way, it would make a significant difference. Jorg, I visited the Geet website and saw that they had a 5kW unit for $1350.00. Hmmm, does it do what they say it will. I also learned of the thermoelectric unit being offered soon through Jade Mountain . 27lbs, no noise, no vibrations, 5kw with excess heat as a bi-product for cooking they say. Too good to be true.....$980.00 I was thinking of using BioDiesel from french fry grease, if I could get somebody to build me the fat extractor..... end snip. Chuck, Home Power Magazine ran an excellent article about a year ago about a couple who built a biodiesel powered motorhome. They have been driving it around the country, demonstrating it's practicality. They really do fuel up at places like McDonalds on french fry grease. The article describes how they built their fat extractor. It didn't sound too difficult. You can get back issues of Home Power on their inexpensive CD-ROM. http://www.homepower.com Oh, and about Jade Mountain being too good to be true ... I have purchased a number of things from them, and found that their catalog and sales info is literally not to be believed. For some reason, they frequently make very exagerated claims on inovative new products. I'm sorry to say this, because they are a good source of new, or hard to find alternative energy, and alternative living products. Perhaps if they are criticized enough, they will shape up. Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 13:16:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA02589 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:16:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27610; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:11:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:07:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA27078 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:07:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA27072 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:07:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA02006; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:20:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA08643; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:20:36 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:20:36 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: "Beverly A. Weiter" Cc: bdhoward@ix.netcom.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: green power/pop in FLA In-Reply-To: <19981124.111013.8830.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5102 Dear Beverly, There are niche markets, and niches within niches, and needs are met by specialty consultants and subcontractors, operating within the total disorganized and fluid socio-business infrastructure, so-called and such as it is. We know what the price requirements are for the mobiliztion of a mass green market; and we know how to accomplish these transformations, but until there is the political will to institute these measures, it ain't a-gonna happen' in the big highly impacting way, one might desire. So, that's the way it is, and maybe that's for the best. Until that time, when the term sustainable economy actually neabs something, green will find green, as necessary. Fact is: there are instances where the greenest approach is the least expensive, both immediately and in the log run. What do you make of the enclosed article on pop in FLA? Yours truly, Ross "You're not getting older, you're getting gooder." -Mick Jagger On Tue, 24 Nov 1998, Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > Bion et al, > > I think RDI has been living in the thin air of Denver too long. I would > love to believe we live in a perfect world where environmental aspects > have as much value to customers as they would like to believe. > Unfortunately I am somewhat more jaded and cynical. Unless they see a > direct threat to their health, most people will opt to select the > "cheapest" not the "greenest". If you don't believe me, I remind you of > the results of deregulation of long distance phone service. > > There are certainly a number of us who would seek the "green" alternative > but I highly doubt it is a significant enough segment of the population > to have a major impact. Perhaps, on the other hand, this is "the age of > Aquarius" and I am just getting too old. > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > Boca Raton, FL > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ State's growth still in the fast lane Monday, November 23, 1998 Naples Daily News By MICHELLE VACHON, Staff Writer Within six years, Florida's population will reach 16.8 million, with nearly a third of the people over 54 years old. More than half of the population will be working, with most of the labor force employed in the service-producing sector. About two persons out of 10 will be employed by local governments and health services. These facts are contained in the report "Florida's Workforce 2005" recently released by the Florida Department of Labor and Employment Security's Bureau of Labor Market and Performance Information. The document presents changes that are expected to occur in the state's population, labor force and employment during the 1995-2005 decade. "Florida is continuing its trend of being one of the fastest growing states," said Gerald Schoenfeld, associate professor of human resource management at Florida Gulf Coast University's College of Business. The state's growth rate, which dropped from 3.9 percent in 1980 to 3.1 in 1990, is expected to keep slowing down, said the report. Yet, Florida still has one of the fastest-growing rates compared to the rest of the country, said Schoenfeld. Between 1980 and 2005, Florida's population will have nearly doubled, going from 9.7 million in 1980 to 16.8 million in 2005. The slowed growth rate will be due to fewer people moving to the state, a low birth rate and high mortality rate due to the state's elderly population. The median age, which was 35.4 years old in 1985 and 37.8 years old in 1995, will go up to 41.2 years old within six years. Florida's middle-age and elderly population is increasing, said Schoenfeld. The 55-to-64 year-old group will grow 52.5 percent by 2005, swelling the over-54-year-old group to 30.1 percent of the population. In job creation, Florida fares quite well. "Of the 10 most populous states, Florida has (had) the fastest-growing rate in job creation over the years," said Rebecca Rust, bureau chief of labor market and performance information at the Department of Labor. The labor force will increase 25.5 percent during the decade 1995-2005, about twice the national average rate. In that regard, the Asian economic crisis has affected Florida only slightly, said Rust. This may be due to the fact that Florida businesses have limited dealings with Asian countries. In the coming years, the percentage of jobs in manufacturing will be smaller in the state than in the rest of the country, said Bill Dobson, economic analyst with the Bureau of Labor Market and Performance Information. By 2005, the percentage of people working in the goods-producing sector, that is, agriculture, construction and manufacturing, will have shrunk from its 1995 level of 14.9 percent to 13.3 percent, while the service-producing sector will be employing 86.7 percent of the workforce. This sector will have expanded 23 percent during the decade, with services and trade industries accounting for 76.5 percent of that job growth. Other industries in the service-producing sector will add employment at a slower pace: government at 21.2 percent; finance, insurance and real estate, 16.6 percent; transportation, communications and public utilities, 15.8 percent. Figures on construction and service jobs may be slightly skewed, said Rust. Florida has the largest sector of staff-leasing and temporary-help companies, she said. Even though employees of these companies may work in various fields, including construction, they are counted in the services category, said Rust. Of the 8.09 million employees in Florida in 2005, 751,200 will be working for local governments and 746,300 for health services, with these two categories utilizing 18.5 percent of the labor force. Fields with the fastest job-creation rate will be related to computers - systems analyst jobs with a rate of 98.2 percent and computer engineers, 86.7 percent. With computers being used in nearly every industry, there will be a great need for people to program and repair these machines, said Dobson. Next come physical and corrective therapy assistant jobs that will be created at the rate of 83.9 percent, physical therapist jobs, 77.7 percent; occupational therapist jobs, 74.1 percent; and home-health aide employment, 74 percent. The growth in healthcare jobs will be due to two factors -the technology used in the field that will require additional skilled people and the demand of an aging population in Florida, said Dobson. The growth of computer-related businesses and healthcare services already is apparent in Collier, Lee and Charlotte counties, said Schoenfeld. Companies such as the software-development firm of Allen Systems Group Inc., which built its headquarters in Naples, and Cleveland Clinic Florida's outpatient medical clinic, due to open in North Naples early next year, may attract similar businesses, he said. Not only may this mean more high-skill, high-paying jobs for Collier County, but it may stimulate the area's whole economy through a trickle-down effect, said Schoenfeld. These two sectors are among the ones targeted by the Economic Development Council of Collier County Inc. (EDC) to generate high-skilled, high-paying jobs, said Susan E. Pareigis, EDC executive director. Attracting these types of businesses requires strategy because they are not population-driven, she said. Population-driven jobs in retail, hospitality and other services in Florida, Pareigis said, "happen in and of itself because of the population (increase)." This may explain why in the coming years, occupations with the most job openings annually will be in population-driven occupations; they also will be on the low-paying side. At the top of the list is cashier that will pay an average of $6.14 per hour and will have 12,800 positions to fill each year; this is followed by waiters and waitresses with average hourly wages of $5.54 and 12,200 new positions each year, and sales people in retail needed at the rate of 11,200 per year, and paid an average of $8.25 per hour. There also will be 25,000 teaching jobs to fill in elementary and high schools during the 1995-2005 decade. Finally, the report mentions that jobs where the demand will grow faster are higher-paying jobs that will involve five or more years of college for people to qualify. If Collier County is to get these jobs, Schoenfeld said, "The key will be providing the labor necessary." This will require the concerted efforts of all education institutions in Southwest Florida, from continuing-education providers to community colleges and Florida Gulf Coast University, he said. Pareigis agreed. "The education component is absolutely vital to the creation and retention of knowledge-based jobs," she said. One of the benefits of getting these high-skilled, high-paying jobs here is that, once educated at Southwest Florida's institutions, young people will not have to leave the area to find employment, said Schoenfeld. ----------------------------------------------------------------- NPG Population-News Listserve http://www.npg.org To unsubscribe: send e-mail to MAJORDOMO@NPG.ORG with the message text: unsubscribe population-news ----------------------------------------------------------------- Please, add to your mailing list, and send newsletters, press releases, announcements, and notices of events to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 For edited news you can RE-use, send "subscribe er-list" for the "Environmental Review" and/or "subscribe solar_utilities" for info on Solar Utilities, to: . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 13:35:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA03010 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:35:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02676; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:19:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:15:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02280 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:15:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02264 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:15:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet6.carleton.ca (be417@freenet6 [134.117.136.26]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id MAA20699; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:38:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet6.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id MAA04407; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:38:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:38:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811241738.MAA04407@freenet6.carleton.ca> From: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re:generator for the present not the past Cc: eide@videotron.ca Reply-To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5103 on Mon, 23 Nov 1998 Wade Eide wrote: >>"Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: >> "BioDiesel" is fuel for diesel generators made from >> soyabeans. > How about using agricultural land to produce fuel that can be > metabolized in the bodies of humans rather than burnt in > Diesel engines? Hello Wade and FuelGourmands; I think that this is a fine idea... except that it's not taken far enough. After the food is burnt as fuel in our bodies (and that of other biological food burners) it still has fuel potential if the biogas is collected rather than allowed to dissipate into the atmosphere (aka "stink"). In so-called "under-developed" Third World countries where this is being done, the biogas is routed directly to cooking and lighting appliances from their on-site methane digesters. I'm sure that it would seem ludicrous to them to devote precious food-growing land to produce fuel to power some inefficient mechanical contraption that spins hunks of high-embodied energy steel 'round and 'round in order to generate electricity (and accompanying transmission losses). How feasible are methane digesters in the advanced Wealthy West ? As far as I'm aware, we generate "fuel" just like they do in Third World countries (actually, more of it... why, this List alone generates enough "fuel" to meet the energy needs of almost all of West Africa)... however we're apparently so decadent that we can afford to make big, honking machines to burn our food for us (?) -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada PS If this message is posted in triplicate, give Nadav and the Boys "heck" because I only sent it once. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 15:05:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05158 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:05:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08307; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:50:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:46:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07828 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:46:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07818 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:46:01 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ531692; Tue, 24 Nov 98 12:45:16 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA140204; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:46:26 -0700 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 12:46:26 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Chuck Learned Cc: Wade Eide , David Melchert , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: generator for the present not the past In-Reply-To: <199811240246.UAA11315@bminet.bminet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5104 You said:"Jorg, I visited the Geet website and saw that they had a 5kW unit for $1350.00. Hmmm, does it do what they say it will." ______________________________________________________________________ Chuck: We do NOT have one yet. They can run on 80% water and various forms of fuel. One person you may wish to contact is: Bob Colvin We have no vested interest in this technology at this time. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 15:45:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA06090 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:45:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11014; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:30:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:26:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10481 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:26:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from bminet.bminet.com (root@console.bminet.com [207.170.27.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10477 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:26:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from clearned.bminet.com (dial178.bminet.com [207.170.27.178]) by bminet.bminet.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA00360; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:57:03 -0600 Message-Id: <199811242057.OAA00360@bminet.bminet.com> From: "Chuck Learned" To: "Wade Eide" , "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Cc: "David Melchert" , Subject: Re: GBlist: generator for the present not the past Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:34:11 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5105 > > Burning used cooking oil in a Diesel engine is probably an ecologically > sound idea. It certainly falls into the category of "recycling". (Is there > any evidence that burning French fry grease would produce fewer GHGs?) Try an Internet search for Veggie Van-They make a case that it burns over 75% cleaner than conventional Diesel. > , I think that we as over-fed Americans are > on very shaky ethical ground when we start thinking that it's okay to burn > our food in cars or Diesel-electric generators. > I realize it would appear that we are on shaky ground and perhaps 15 years down the road when the population is on its way to doubling that it may be time to have fully phased in Hydrogen fuels. However as an interim strategy it is much better than conventional diesel. It is not lack of growing land that creates malnurishment, it is who controls the land and the resources. I have lived among the poor in Africa and elsewhere and worked on poverty issues. Most hunger and malnourishment comes from either famine,(nothing grows), war, indebted countries who cash crop luxury food for the U.S. and elsewhere instead of feeding their own people, and finally just plain out political and private corruption. The amount of available land for growing at this point has very little to do with your concerns. Chuck Learned In the Great Corn Desert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 15:52:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA06223 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:52:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11791; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:37:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:34:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA11326 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:33:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11315 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:33:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (chtw02-29.pei.sympatico.ca [207.34.30.77]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA25207 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:46:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <365B1D45.6014@pei.sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:56:09 -0400 From: Phil Ferraro Reply-To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist:
green power References: <3.0.32.19981124092959.007412d4@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5106 Beverly A. Weiter wrote: >Unless they see a > direct threat to their health, most people will opt to select the > "cheapest" not the "greenest". Wrong. Witness the surge of "organically" grown food in the market place despite the fact that it is at least 30% more expensive. Even if it were not "green" The consumer will by what is marketed well (ie Tommy Hilfinger clothes etc., etc.) and marketing renwable energy should be easier than marketing the revival of the volkswagon beetle to all of us who experienced the 60's and 70's -- Phil Ferraro, Institute for Bioregional Studies 393 University Avenue, Room 126 Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island Canada C1A 4N4 Phone: (902) 368-2005 Fax: (902) 368-2520 (phone first) Email: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 18:25:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA10098 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:25:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21316; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:10:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:06:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA20980 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:05:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from sims-ha.videotron.net (faure.videotron.net [205.151.222.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20976 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:05:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from videotron.ca (ppp137.207.mmtl.videotron.net) by sims-ha.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34) with ESMTP id <0F2Y007YW8HD52@sims-ha.videotron.net> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:12:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:13:07 -0500 From: Wade Eide Subject: Re: GBlist: generator for the present not the past To: Chuck Learned Cc: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , David Melchert , greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <365B3D82.3C35AE8F@videotron.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: <199811242057.OAA00360@bminet.bminet.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5107 I agree with Chuck Learned that the politics of food (and the politics of hunger) are immensely complicated. However, just to put things into perspective, let's do a little calculation. Pens and paper and calculators ready, boys and girls. The round trip from my house to my office is about 20 km. If I were to use the company van to commute, I would be burning nearly 2 litres of gasoline. But I don't use the van to go to work and back. I ride my bike. My daily calorific intake is in the order of thousands, but probably not more than 3000 calories. And that includes the calories that I need to live, to work and to think (not too many burned there!) -- not just the calories that I burn on the bike. So, the question is: how much energy is contained in those two litres of gasoline? (My intuitive guess is that it is in the order of several megacalories, but I could be wildly off.) How many kilograms of soybeans would have to be grown to produce the equivalent quantity of Diesel fuel? More interesting yet, how many square metres of land would be required to grow that amount of soybeans? Compare that to the amount of land required to grow the food necessary to satisfy my 3 or so kilocalorie per day requirement. The point of all this is to show that the internal combustion engine is a very inefficient way to get useful work from a particular energy source, and a very high level energy source at that. So, before we rush to fuel the darned things with our vegetables, maybe we should be looking for more ethical sources, like conservation, for example. -- Wade Eide, architect, Montreal Atelier BRAQ VéloVille ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Nov 24 20:31:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA11899 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:31:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA27883; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:12:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA27600 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:12:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.8] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA27596 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:12:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.132]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3121800 ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:07:53 -0800 Message-ID: <365B5C30.A4E387A6@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:24:00 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wade Eide CC: Chuck Learned , "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , David Melchert , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: generator for the present not the past References: <199811242057.OAA00360@bminet.bminet.com> <365B3D82.3C35AE8F@videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5108 I've not for many years been able to gain an informed perspective on either the production of food or hunger but then I've never understood business all that well either other than to appreciate that there is some relationship here between business, hunger and most other inequities. As to 'generators for the present' the first question is as Wade points out; what can be conserved, or as a more interesting question for the times; what really needs to be generated? We can now purchase (off the shelf) the makings of a home that requires very little energy. The problem I guess is this home would have (or the budget would leave little room for) very few of the amenities that crowd the rest of the shelves and to many would barely be recognizable as a home. As to the balance of energy required - there must be more appropriate and longer term strategies that serve the community better than a combustion engine making noise in the background. John Wade Eide wrote: > I agree with Chuck Learned that the politics of food (and the politics > of hunger) are immensely complicated. However, just to put things into > perspective, let's do a little calculation. Pens and paper and > calculators ready, boys and girls. > > The round trip from my house to my office is about 20 km. If I were to > use the company van to commute, I would be burning nearly 2 litres of > gasoline. But I don't use the van to go to work and back. I ride my > bike. My daily calorific intake is in the order of thousands, but > probably not more than 3000 calories. And that includes the calories > that I need to live, to work and to think (not too many burned there!) > -- not just the calories that I burn on the bike. So, the question is: > how much energy is contained in those two litres of gasoline? (My > intuitive guess is that it is in the order of several megacalories, but > I could be wildly off.) How many kilograms of soybeans would have to be > grown to produce the equivalent quantity of Diesel fuel? More > interesting yet, how many square metres of land would be required to > grow that amount of soybeans? > > Compare that to the amount of land required to grow the food necessary > to satisfy my 3 or so kilocalorie per day requirement. > > The point of all this is to show that the internal combustion engine is > a very inefficient way to get useful work from a particular energy > source, and a very high level energy source at that. So, before we rush > to fuel the darned things with our vegetables, maybe we should be > looking for more ethical sources, like conservation, for example. > > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 25 08:04:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA19918 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:04:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA16638; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 07:49:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Nov 1998 07:45:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA16363 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 07:45:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA16359 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 07:45:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 5574 invoked from network); 25 Nov 1998 12:58:23 -0000 Received: from userm643.uk.uudial.com (HELO ) (193.149.79.185) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 25 Nov 1998 12:58:23 -0000 Message-ID: <365BBACC.574E@dial.pipex.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:07:40 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Reply-To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, eide@videotron.ca Subject: Re: GBlist: re:generator for the present not the past References: <199811241738.MAA04407@freenet6.carleton.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5109 Robert W. Tom wrote: > How feasible are methane digesters in the advanced Wealthy West ? Depends which bit of the wealthy west you're talking about. The little bugs are notoriously fussy about temperature, so in cold climates the digesters need to be (i) either heated or extremely well insulated, (ii) on a very large scale (by Indian standards) and (iii) provided with sophisticated controls. In Britain we have a few of them at sewage facilities - my local one powers itself by this means and used to run its vehicles on biomethane. And a few large farms are running them successfully. And a few large towns are currently investigating them as part of their waste disposal strategy. But the individual humanure / garden waste option wouldn't really work here. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 25 08:55:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA20853 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:55:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA19128; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:40:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:36:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA18647 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:36:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA18643 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:36:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.4.253.8] (uA2-p8.dreamscape.com [209.4.253.8]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA22060 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:49:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:49:42 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: uA2-p8.dreamscape.com [209.4.253.8] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:49:42 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: gratitude Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5110 For the greenbuilding listers. Thanks. - Terry Terry M. Brennan Camroden Associates 7240 East Carter Road Westmoreland, New York 13490 315-336-7955 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 25 09:20:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21645 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:20:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21065; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:05:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:01:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA20631 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:01:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA20627 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:01:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.4.253.8] (uA2-p8.dreamscape.com [209.4.253.8]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA29872; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:14:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:14:28 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: uA2-p8.dreamscape.com [209.4.253.8] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:14:28 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Renewable News Network , greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: gratitude Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5111 >for what? >just curious re: the value and use of this media > > >On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Terry Brennan wrote: > >> For the greenbuilding listers. Thanks. - Terry >> >> Terry M. Brennan >> Camroden Associates >> 7240 East Carter Road >> Westmoreland, New York 13490 >> 315-336-7955 Oh, for the curiosity, compassion, stubborness, anger and terror that motivates people to post just what I need to make a decision, solve a mystery, become energized when I feel like cashing it all in, happily mad when I think I know it all. For heart and soul. Terry M. Brennan Camroden Associates 7240 East Carter Road Westmoreland, New York 13490 315-336-7955 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 25 10:59:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24169 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:59:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26729; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:43:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:40:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26073 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:39:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26063 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:39:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DUWNR7CY; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:52:40 EST To: rnn@rnn.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:41:58 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: green power/pop in FLA Message-ID: <19981125.105649.20142.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,6-7,9-13 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5112 Hi Ross, Since Mick and I are of the same generation, I can relate. Unfortunately, as a writer, I think he needs to go back to school to relearn grammer. Sets a bad example to the current culture - and they already have enough negative influences. As to your other comments, I will reserve judgement, but I agree, there needs to be support and impetus from beyond the "free market". Beverly Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 25 10:59:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24173 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26727; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:43:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:39:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26062 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:39:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26058 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:39:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DUWNR7H3; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:52:40 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:56:49 -0800 Message-ID: <19981125.105649.20142.2.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-8 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5113 Dear Listers, Just to allay your fears that I am turning into a Scrooge, I wanted to take this opportunity to wish one and all a "green" and Happy Thanksgiving. Beverly Weiter Environs Interior Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 25 10:59:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24204 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:59:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26747; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:44:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:40:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26157 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:40:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26132 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:40:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DUWNR7FD; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:52:40 EST To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:52:26 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist:
green power Message-ID: <19981125.105649.20142.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <3.0.32.19981124092959.007412d4@popd.ix.netcom.com> <19981124.111013.8830.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-22,27-28,31,35-36,41-47 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5114 On Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:52:26 -0400 Phil Ferraro writes: > >Wrong. Witness the surge of "organically" grown food in the market >place >despite the fact that it is at least 30% more expensive. Even if it >were >not "green" The consumer will by what is marketed well (ie Tommy >Hilfinger clothes etc., etc.) and marketing renwable energy should be >easier than marketing the revival of the volkswagon beetle to all of >us >who experienced the 60's and 70's >-- >Phil Ferraro, Executive Director, P.E.I. ADAPT Council >c/o The Farm Centre, 420 University Avenue, Room 103 >Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island Canada C1A 7Z5 >Phone: (902) 368-2005 >Fax: (902) 368-2520 (phone first) >Email: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca > Phil, Your statement does not prove me wrong - in fact it merely reinforces it. As I said previously - if it is for their health they will spend the money. The same is true of "toys". But when it comes to the important items like utilities, services, etc there is not that same willingness to spend. I agree, there has been a surge in organic food sales but that is because it can be linked directly and specifically to well being. Even Hilfiger clothing and revived VW "bugs" are concrete and specific. Trying to make the general public get upset about the affect of "clean" vs "dirty" power on their eventual health is a much harder sell, until the town they live in becomes so smoggy that they can's see or breathe. By then it's almost too late. If you don't believe me, try to explain to the general public the importance of boycotting companies that cut down the rainforest or despoil the oceans ( Mitsubishi isn't going out of business) or of not buying cheap mahogany furniture from Asia. Only the effects of El Nino have finally made a few more sit up and take notice. I could go on, but it's time to get off the soapbox. Beverly Weiter Environs Interior Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 25 11:11:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24498 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:11:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27568; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:56:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:52:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27170 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:52:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from harborside.com (exim@harborside.com [204.214.110.225]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27166 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:52:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.214.111.16] [204.214.111.16] by harborside.com with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0zihRn-00013v-00; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:05:44 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: Biodiesel Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:05:36 -0800 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Steve Hussey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5115 Before we rush into biodiesel production... Canola (the PC name for the Rape plant) is grown extensively in Europe, both for cooking oil and biodiesel. It is grown as a monoculture in vast fields, after the hedgerows have been ripped out to provide easier planting/harvesting. There goes the wildlife... Vast areas of Europe are 'blighted' with its bright yellow plants, massive amounts of fertilizer and energy are consumed in its production and harvesting. I read an article once where someone calculated that almost as much fuel was consumed growing, irrigating and harvesting it as it produced. (All those tractors/harvesters.) Rivers in the UK are polluted by the run off of nitrogen from these fields - destroying fish, the otters and the food chain. (Of course all intensive agriculture causes these same problems.) Its pollen is one of the most virulent for allergy sufferers. It takes large quantities of Canola to produce oil - is it possible to produce sufficient quantities by sustainable methods? Damn, it's all so complicated ;-) Regards, Steve Hussey ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 25 11:17:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24641 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:17:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28177; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:01:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:58:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27705 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:58:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27701 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:58:07 -0500 (EST) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1BGQa04573 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:10:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <566b8110.365c2be8@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:10:16 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: <.article> green power Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5116 Hello GBListers - Speaking of boycotts, sustainablity & forests... Has anyone on the list heard about this activist boycott and the motivation behind it...although I find their URL objectionable, I find what the Gap may be involved with regarding the Redwoods really offensive. I'd like to find out about the accuracy of the accusations. GapSucks: Boycott The Gap and Banana Republic http://www.gapsucks.org/ Greenwood Watershed Association http://www.elksoft.com/gwa/ Have you heard anything about this...or know of a way to check out the accuracy & validity of these accusations? Wishing all a wonderful Thanksgiving Holiday! Regards, Cathy Flanders IAQ List Manager & Moderator Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq IAQ Listserve (to search archives) http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/iaq Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://www.fiscorp.net/iaq/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- In a message dated 98-11-25 10:55:17 EST, you write: << If you don't believe me, try to explain to the general public the importance of boycotting companies that cut down the rainforest or despoil the oceans ( Mitsubishi isn't going out of business) or of not buying cheap mahogany furniture from Asia. Only the effects of El Nino have finally made a few more sit up and take notice. I could go on, but it's time to get off the soapbox. Beverly Weiter Environs Interior Boca Raton, FL >> ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 25 11:36:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24976 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:36:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29390; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:20:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:16:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28996 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:16:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28992; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:16:45 -0500 (EST) From: EcoAmazon@aol.com Received: from EcoAmazon@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id JEBa019407; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:29:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3ada1327.365c305f@aol.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:29:19 EST To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: re:generator for.......... (methane digesters) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5117 I hear that biogas/methane digesters can work great on a small scale, such as in India, where small digesters fuel small cookstoves. About 6 million were introduced in China, but there were problems with repairs, etc. You truly need a lot of excrement to make this work, so it is mostly used with animal operations. I have heard that a contributor to HomePower magazine makes them--Al Rhutan? I think this is a web page for a Hawaiian company making large methane digesters: www.sustainable.com Biogas digesters are also often discussed on the integrated biological systems internet conference. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 25 11:38:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25003 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:38:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29636; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:23:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:19:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29210 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:19:20 -0500 (EST) From: YankeePerm@aol.com Received: from YankeePerm@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id COYWa26092; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:09:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:09:04 EST To: terrain@cow-net.com, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, eide@videotron.ca Cc: clearned@bminet.com, jdo@ucalgary.ca, dmelchert@earthlink.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: generator for the present not the past Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5118 I have been deleting this thread without reading it because the title doesn't make any sense and I've got to cut back on email. Actually I'm trying to find the instructions to unsubscribe. However a glance at it indicates that it is about what I do, permaculture. I'll paste in the latest course announcement because it is the handiest thing and if it is not regarded as "commercial" (which I am sure it would not if someone else forwarded it to the list) you can see what we cover. My course begins sunday and I won't be engaging in dialog with this list or any other as that takes up about all the time I want to spend on line (and then some on some days). But I am happy to provide leads, answer questions and do modest, very basic networking. We have all the resources here. For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers assn home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html Here is the pasted material, easy to skip. The outline is what I think will interest you. Third Annual Permaculture Design Course Online Starts in November Elfin Permaculture's third Annual Permaculture Design Course Online will begin at the end of November 1998. The in-depth course runs 5-6 months, depending on class needs. The course includes at home reading assignments, instructor's "lectures" distributed via email, email class discussion of current themes and student projects, a number of special student reports, and a permaculture design project completed by each student. Successful completion of all course requirements leads to certification as an entry- level permaculturist. The course is particularly suited to people who cannot take two or three weeks for a live permaculture course, people living in areas distant from such live courses, and people seeking a particularly in-depth training in permaculture. Advance students may arrange to take the course at an advanced level. The course is not suitable for people who require a more tactile approach to learning, unless arrangements are made to hybridize the course with live training programs. (Email this address for details) As in all Elfin Permaculture programs, we offer some scholarships. However for the online course the number of scholarships is very limited, with a backlog of qualified applicants. Students are encouraged to seek funding from suitable donors. Elfin Permaculture has arranged several alternative approaches for people who want exposure to the course material but cannot take the course at this time. As in our previous online courses, we offer monitor status at a nominal fee, so people can follow the course reading, receive special instructor's materials, and read class discussion as they see fit. In addition, Elfin Permaculture offers for the first time a complete set of reading assignments and course notes, on disk or in print. We are aware that for some people, downloading email materials is not possible or is prohibitively expensive due to time charges by their ISP. They can now receive the class materials by mail. In addition, we will take up to two conventional correspondence students, on a one-on-one basis, at one time, either via mail or email. The broad course outline is as follows: Section 1: Introduction and Basic Principles a) World ecological problems and interrelationships. b) Principles of natural design. c) Permaculture design concepts. d) Classical landscapes. e) Patterning, edges, edge effects. f) The Permaculture Design Report g) Principles of transformation (in process--you will get as much as we have worked out at the moment--this is not part of ordinary permaculture design courses). Section 2: Appropriate Technologies in Permaculture Design a) Energy--solar, wind, hydro, biomass, etc. b) Nutrient cycles--soil, microclimates, gardening methods, perennials, tree crops, food parks, composting toilets, livestock, "pest" management, food storage, seed saving, cultivated systems, forests, etc. c) Water--impoundments, aquaculture, conservation, etc. d) Buildings. Section 3: Social permaculture. Design Report. a) Design for catastrophe. b) Urban permaculture. c) Bioregionalism. d) Alternative economics. e) Village development. f) Final design reports and critiques. g) Final evaluation. For more information request the course protocol and reading list from Elfin Permaculture at Permacltur@aol.com For Mother Earth, Dan Hemenway, Yankee Permaculture Publications (since 1982), Elfin Permaculture workshops, lectures, Permaculture Design Courses, consulting and permaculture designs (since 1981), and annual correspondence courses via email. Copyright, 1998, Dan & Cynthia Hemenway, P.O. Box 52, Sparr FL 32192 USA Internships. YankeePerm@aol.com We don't have time to rush. A list by topic of all Yankee Permaculture titles may be found at http://csf.colorado.edu/perma/ypc_catalog.html Elfin Permaculture programs are listed at the Eastern Permaculture Teachers Assn. home page: http://home.ptd.net/~artrod/epta/eptahmp.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 25 14:43:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28681 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:43:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10513; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:28:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:24:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10187 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:24:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from airmail.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.20.220]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10168 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 14:23:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from arb.ca.gov ([146.114.11.17]) by airmail.arb.ca.gov (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA792C; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:35:19 -0800 Message-ID: <365C5CBE.A9B54EBD@arb.ca.gov> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:38:38 -0800 From: "Thomas J. Phillips" Organization: CARB/RD, Indoor Air Quality and Personal Exposure Assessment Program X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "WALDMAN, JED" , CO LIST , GREENBLDGLIST , "BERGER, DAVID" , "BLAKE, DAVID" , "FEYK, LORI" , "JAMES, GEORGE" , "KLEIN, GARY" , "LUBLINER, MIKE" , "MUDARRI, DAVID" , "PERSILY, ANDY" , "RIEDEL, RANDEL" , "PROCTOR, JOHN" , "ROBERTS, JOHN" , "SEHNERT,BRIAN" , "TRAYNOR,GREG" , "William E. Steinke (E-mail)" , "WONG,TONY" , "SPARK, BARBARA" Subject: GBlist: CO Health Advisory Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D507E3FA72F6AF3EE07D27A7" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5119 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D507E3FA72F6AF3EE07D27A7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI/Forward: CARB's annual CO health advisory is at http://www.arb.ca.gov/newsrel/nr112498.htm. TIA, Tom P.s. The mortality data are actually from a Calif. Dept. of Health Services study. -- Thomas J. Phillips CARB/RD, 2020 L St., POB 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 916.322.7145/4357 FAX IAQ guidelines: http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm Research summaries: http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm --------------D507E3FA72F6AF3EE07D27A7 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for THOMAS J. PHILLIPS Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: THOMAS J. PHILLIPS n: PHILLIPS;THOMAS J. org: California Air Resources Board, Research Division adr: 2020 L St.;;POB 2815;Sacramento;CA;95812;USA email;internet: tphillip@arb.ca.gov title: Air Pollution Research Specialist tel;work: 916.322.7145 tel;fax: / 4357 note;quoted-printable:IAQ guidelines: http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm=0D=0A= Research summaries: http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------D507E3FA72F6AF3EE07D27A7-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Nov 25 15:26:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA29436 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:26:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12598; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:10:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:07:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA12247 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:06:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12242 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:06:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([195.44.15.69]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.117.11); Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:18:36 +0000 Message-ID: <365C6670.355C@mcmail.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:20:00 +0000 From: HoA Reply-To: amosandeinstein@mcmail.com Organization: Amos and Einstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-IDv3b (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "George, Drew" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Large Scale Green Building References: <199811210501.AAA23121@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5120 Hello Drew, I am also involved in building sustainable large residential constructions, and strategy planning multi-use parks and brown field sites and am bursting with questions from strategy to detail at the moment...! which if I can not solve locally or in the archives, I will ask the list. And one of the great things about this list is it's diversity, which is stimulating and surprising. However, there seems to be only occasional reference to larger projects - hotels, golf courses, and other - generally commercial orientated questions. In response I have mailed direct to people if there has been questions about which I feel I have some relevant knowledge. And I feel similarly to David Foley about the possible problem of discussing commercial considerations on the list. If it is a problem, and you might now be in a position to know, either from members or CREST, then do tell us; and then there would be a reason to set up a new list. Generally the "Delete key is my friend" works for me. Look forward to your ruminations and what you discover. Henry -- Henry Amos ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Nov 26 08:22:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08775 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:22:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA18035; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:07:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:03:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17804 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:02:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17800 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:02:45 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id GBAFa26724; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:15:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:15:24 EST To: Terry@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: gratitude Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5121 Friends, Signed on this morning to post a Thanksgiving note to you all and noticed that Terry had also done so. We all have lots to be thankful for in this new extended community. I'm grateful to you all for your thoughts and inspiration. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 27 02:48:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA17029 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 02:48:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA18819; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 02:33:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Nov 1998 02:29:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA18576 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 02:28:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA18572 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 02:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.86] (ka2-86.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.86]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA26094; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 02:42:00 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 22:56:16 -0500 To: Green Building List , dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Personal CO2 calculators Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id CAA18573 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5122 Sgrìobh David M. Foley: >This has a simplified household CO2 calculator, enabling you to estimate >how much CO2 you personally produce, and how many trees a year you must >plant to break even. For example, I learned from this site that our >household must plant about 55 trees a year to balance our CO2 emissions. I >was happy to realize that we've actually done that! (In the past 11 years, >I've planted about 1000 trees, of which about 700 have lived.) But we're >running out of land - so we're going to have to reduce our emissions >further and start funding tree-planting efforts elsewhere. Hm... On my land, there's not much room to plant trees. It's already almost completely forested, except for a an acre or two where they stripped it down to the dirt about ten years ago. So, once I fill that area with saplings, what am I to do? There's got to be some benefit from just letting 'em grow. How much CO2 gets sequestered by new growth forest (the last fifty years) which is slowly become old growth forest? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Nov 27 13:46:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA20695 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:46:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06344; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:30:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:26:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06052 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:26:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06048 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:26:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA28186 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 12:39:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md14-56.ix.netcom.com(199.182.66.56) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma028164; Fri Nov 27 12:39:00 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981127133653.006e0330@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:36:55 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Sustainable Holidays? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5123 SHOPPING for SUSTAINABILITY With Christmas, Hannukah, and Kwanzaa fast approaching, gift-giving may be on your mind. Instead of going frazzled at the local mall, you may want to simplify the holidays by giving certificates of service, a "family gift" in lieu of individual gifts, or a donation to a charity. Before making a purchase you might first ask yourself the following questions: * How will this item affect the quality of my (or the gift receiver's) life? * Is the cost of the item worth the amount of time it takes to earn the money to buy it? * Can I buy it used? Borrow it? Rent it? Share the purchase with someone else? * How will this item affect the environment? * How were the people who made it treated? (source: "The Alternative Shopping List: Becoming a Caring Consumer" from The Circle of Simplicity by Cecile Andrews - Harper Collins, 1997) --------------- A few words about the Center for a New American Dream and In Balance: The Center for a New American Dream is a membership-based not-for-profit organization dedicated to raising public awareness of the hidden costs of excessive consumption. We are working to build and support a broad network of organizations and individual leaders to promote sustainable lifestyles that will ensure a healthy planet for future generations. For more information on our mission, staff, and board of directors, please see http://www.newdream.org/main/about.html or call 301-891-3683. Center for a New American Dream 6930 Carroll Ave., Suite 900 Takoma Park, MD 20912 Tel: 301-891-3683 Fax: 301-891-3684 E-mail: newdream@newdream.org Internet: http://www.newdream.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 28 13:20:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00511 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 13:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16235; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 13:05:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 28 Nov 1998 13:00:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA15953 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 13:00:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15925 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 13:00:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.99.28]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA21019 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:16:24 +0000 Message-ID: <36603B49.99D07D17@which.net> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:04:57 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: re:generator for the present not the past X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199811280700.CAA00966@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5124 I have an idea that all large UK sewage facilities used to produce gas for their own use and I am sure that mostly they stopped some time ago. I can only think this is because of the low cost of fossil natural gas. Do you have any more info on how methane producers would be incorporated into waste disposal? It doesn't surprise me that you say several towns are investigating the same options. Since most towns must have the same kind of waste, it sounds like duplicated effort at ratepayers expense. I wonder if there isn't or couldn't be a co-ordinated investigation with a common outcome for all towns. Malcolm Scott Mark wrote: In Britain we have a few of them at sewage facilities - my local one powers itself by this means and used to run its vehicles on biomethane. And a few large farms are running them successfully. And a few large towns are currently investigating them as part of their waste disposal strategy. But the individual humanure / garden waste option wouldn't really work here. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 28 15:54:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01355 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:54:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21600; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:39:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:34:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21301 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:34:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21297 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:34:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from kbell (pool-207-205-131-25.atln.grid.net [207.205.131.25]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA01133; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:47:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811282047.PAA01133@camel8.mindspring.com> From: "Karlene" To: , Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: re:generator for the present not the past Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:49:21 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5125 the City of Asheville, NC is doing this - also collecting methane from the landfill & piping it several miles to town for city vehicles, etc. I had the idea that this was pretty common. Karlene Bell > Mark wrote: > In Britain we have a few of them at sewage facilities - my local one > powers itself by this means and used to run its vehicles on biomethane. > And a few large farms are running them successfully. And a few large > towns are currently investigating them as part of their waste disposal > strategy. But the individual humanure / garden waste option wouldn't > really work here. > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 28 18:24:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA02334 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:24:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA26273; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:09:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:05:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA25939 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:04:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail3.cityweb.de (mail3.cityweb.de [193.189.224.211]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA25935 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:04:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from cityweb.de (ess8-m159-221.pool.cww.de [62.52.159.221]) by mail3.cityweb.de (8.9.1/8.9.1/powered by Telemedia) with ESMTP id AAA15341 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:18:17 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <366083FE.2843DE3@cityweb.de> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:15:15 +0100 From: Vernon LeCount Reply-To: vernonlecount@cityweb.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: No insulation under radiant slab-Maine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5126 Sorry for the long post, but: Some sources suggest that a radiant slab have one inch of foam insulation under the slab and two inches of perimeter foam and a foam "skirt" extending out from the perimeter of the slab. The Kitec people (radiant pipe) suggest that the slab could have an additional two inches of foam under the slab for the first four feet of slab from the perimeter. Question: I am putting a radiant slab under a building in Maine and the P.E. involved in the project says to consider only using a lot of foam insulation as a skirt and use no insulation under the slab. He maintains the R value of about 3 feet of soil or rock is the same as 1" of foam. He adds that the heat loss would be high at first but over time the earth under the house would reach the average annual temperature of the interior of the house. This would give a slight cooling effect in the summer but the real advantage might be that an unheated house might never drop below freezing. I thought having this infinite thermal sink under the slab would make the house difficult to bring up to a comfortable temperature?? My P.E. countered: If you recall, using the earth for thermal storage was a big part of the old envelope design. All materials have both thermal conductance and heat capacity. All heat transfer calculations need to take in to account both. Except heat capacity doesn't matter for steady state, but you never have steady state because the temperature is always changing. You can also neglect heat capacity for materials that have low capacity and high resistance (fiberglass, foam, wood). The product of conductance and capacity is call thermal diffusivity. This is what determines the thermal response of materials like concrete, earth, and rock. The calculations are straight forward (same diff. equations as for electricity). The biggest uncertainty probably comes from the assumptions about soil properties because they are moisture dependent. In terms of heat capacity the earth is in effect an infinite sink. But there are two things working in your favor. The first is the temperature of the sink is not too low. About 40 deg F in Maine. If you look at the temperature profile with depth and time it sort of looks like a decaying sine wave going down from the surface as the average temperature oscillates with the seasons. When you place a house at the surface and hold the temperature at 70 the profile is no longer oscillating. You create a transient that is like charging a capacitor through a resistor. At first the current (heat flow) is large but it decays over time. In this case the resistor itself is increasing with time as the distance to 40 deg gets larger and larger. So directly under the house the heat loss goes to zero on the time scale of a year or so. If you stop heating the house in the winter the heat flow reverses and you have a similar transient were the flow is high at first and decreases with time. Knowing the heat loss of the house you can calculate how long it would take to reach freezing based on the outside temperature and any solar gain. Since we are talking about time scales of weeks or months you have to account for the outside temperature and solar gain increasing after about mid January. Of course what makes the calculation more complicated is the edge losses. This is what determines the width and thickness of the foam skirt. Does anyone have a comment? Should I only use foam as a perimeter skirt? Vernon LeCount Essen, Germany ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Nov 28 18:59:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA02511 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:59:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA27534; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:44:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:40:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27282 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:40:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27251; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:40:04 -0500 (EST) From: EcoAmazon@aol.com Received: from EcoAmazon@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id KRUYa19406; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:52:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <42c20f64.36608ccf@aol.com> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 18:52:47 EST To: bellstudio@mindspring.com, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: methane digesters Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5127 I forgot to mention before that a small housing development in Germany uses vacuum toilets and a biogas digester. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 29 10:03:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06839 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:03:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18327; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 09:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 29 Nov 1998 09:43:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18081 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 09:43:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18074 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 09:43:23 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ389178; Sun, 29 Nov 98 07:56:00 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA102368; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:55:10 -0700 Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 07:55:09 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Vernon LeCount Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: No insulation under radiant slab-Maine In-Reply-To: <366083FE.2843DE3@cityweb.de> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5128 Vernon: Based on many applications of this sort over many years, we insulate both under slab, edge of slab and 4' (standard) apron around our (shallow) foundation in cold climates. The thickness and length of your insulating apron all depends on the "Frost Index" for your area. At corners, we go 1.5 times the distance. In cold climates, we insulate with R-20 under all slabs to uncouple the earth from the building. You cannot control the moisture levels below the building. R-values of the earth vary accordingly. Water tables can change and rob all your heat from the slab. Computer simulations know nothing about crawling babies on the floor, health or changing soil conditions. That is why we disregard their advice on slab insulation and do the above. It is hard to retrofit if you do not get it right the first time. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Sun, 29 Nov 1998, Vernon LeCount wrote: > > Sorry for the long post, but: > > Some sources suggest that a radiant slab have one inch of foam insulation > under the slab and two inches of perimeter foam and a foam "skirt" extending > out from the perimeter of the slab. The Kitec people (radiant pipe) suggest > that the slab could have an additional two inches of foam under the slab for > the first four feet of slab from the perimeter. > > Question: > I am putting a radiant slab under a building in Maine and the P.E. involved in > the project says to consider only using a lot of foam insulation as a skirt > and use no insulation under the slab. He maintains the R value of about 3 feet > of soil or rock is the same as 1" of foam. He adds that the heat loss would be > high at first but over time the earth under the house would reach the average > annual temperature of the interior of > the house. This would give a slight cooling effect in the summer but the > real advantage might be that an unheated house might never drop below > freezing. > > I thought having this infinite thermal sink under the slab would make the > house difficult to bring up to a comfortable temperature?? > > My P.E. countered: If you recall, > using the earth for thermal storage was a big part of the old envelope > design. All materials have both thermal conductance and heat capacity. > All heat transfer calculations need to take in to account both. Except > heat capacity doesn't matter for steady state, but you never have steady > state because the temperature is always changing. You can also neglect > heat capacity for materials that have low capacity and high resistance > (fiberglass, foam, wood). The product of conductance and capacity is > call thermal diffusivity. This is what determines the thermal response of > materials like concrete, earth, and rock. The calculations are straight > forward (same diff. equations as for electricity). The biggest > uncertainty probably comes from the assumptions about soil properties > because they are moisture dependent. In terms of heat capacity the > earth is in effect an infinite sink. But there are two things working in > your favor. The first is the temperature of the sink is not too low. > About 40 deg F in Maine. If you look at the > temperature profile with depth and time it sort of looks like a decaying > sine wave going down from the surface as the average temperature > oscillates with the seasons. When you place a house at the surface and > hold the temperature at 70 the profile is no longer oscillating. You > create a transient that is like charging a capacitor through a resistor. > At first the current (heat flow) is large but it decays over time. In > this case the resistor itself is increasing with time as the distance > to 40 deg gets larger and larger. So directly under the house the heat > loss goes to zero on the time scale of a year or so. If you stop heating > the house in the winter the heat flow reverses and you have a similar > transient were the flow is high at first and decreases with time. > Knowing the heat loss of the house you can calculate how long it would > take to reach freezing based on the outside temperature and any solar > gain. Since we are talking about time scales of weeks or months you have > to account for the outside temperature and solar gain increasing after > about mid January. Of course what makes the calculation more > complicated is the edge losses. This is what determines the width and > thickness of the foam skirt. > > Does anyone have a comment? Should I only use foam as a perimeter skirt? > > Vernon LeCount > Essen, Germany > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 29 10:30:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06964 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:30:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19255; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:14:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:11:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19020 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:10:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19016 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:10:32 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id 1USCa26670 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:23:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <18bd296b.366166e9@aol.com> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 10:23:21 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: No insulation under radiant slab-Maine Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5129 In a message dated 98-11-28 18:20:27 EST, vernonlecount@cityweb.de writes: << Question: I am putting a radiant slab under a building in Maine and the P.E. involved in the project says to consider only using a lot of foam insulation as a skirt and use no insulation under the slab >> seems to me that you would be taking a BIG chance on summer condensation with the slab so much cooler than the indoor air ----- in addition to heating the ground with your radiant heat in the winter, whether the ground is 40 or 55 it is still cooler than your house air having said that I am really freaked by the recent JLC article on termites and exterior foam, so in a real quandry what to do about my slab on grade house to be started soon, are people changing their foam procedures ???? Linda Lloyd - GreenShelter ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 29 13:43:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA08594 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:43:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26564; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:27:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:23:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26278 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:23:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26274 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:23:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on6-41.netcom.ca [207.181.91.169]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20812; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:35:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981129131445.009d2690@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 13:33:55 -0400 To: vernonlecount@cityweb.de From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: No insulation under radiant slab-Maine Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <366083FE.2843DE3@cityweb.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5130 This is not a direct answer to Vernon's question, but may be of interest anyway: We worked on a house north of Toronto a couple of years ago, designed by Allen-Kani Associates (Greg Allen's firm). It is a seasonal residence, so one design goal was to not have the building freeze if it was unoccupied and unheated in the winter. This was accomplished, among other things, by using high mass, superinsulation, airtighness, high-tech windows, and an earth-coupled slab, ie. no insulation under the slab. The house doesn't have a hydronic floor (it is off grid and doesn't need a second heating system -- primary heat is solar gain through the windows, a wood fired masonry heater, and a small wood fired masonry cookstove). Computer modelling predicted that the lowest inside temperature experienced,unoccupied and unheated, would be 10 C., and it looks like it will actually come in at around 15 C. (55 F). We have an earth coupled slab in our unheated basement. It stays at around 55 F all winter, and the basement itself is about 60. If I were doing it again, I'd insulate w. 2" of foam, to minimize heat loss and boost basement temperature, since we use backup heat to maintain the house above freezing when it is unoccupied, which is rare. There's no way I'd put a hydronic slab on uninsulated ground. Ask your engineer for some performance data to back up his theoretical musings. Best.....Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 29 21:27:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA12160 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:27:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15632; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:11:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:06:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15206 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:06:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15202 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:06:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.58] (rkd034.acadia.net [208.244.128.58]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA17587 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:20:00 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:19:03 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: re:generator for the present not the past Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5131 Mark wrote: >Depends which bit of the wealthy west you're talking about. The little >bugs are notoriously fussy about temperature, so in cold climates the >digesters need to be (i) either heated or extremely well insulated, (ii) >on a very large scale (by Indian standards) and (iii) provided with >sophisticated controls. end of quote This is probably hopelessly out of date, but back in 1976, a friend and I were exploring the use of methane for dairy farms in Vermont. At first glance, the idea made no sense, because you needed to cannibalize a large proportion of the methane just to keep the digester warm enough. But dairy farms need to chill milk, and they generate lots of waste heat from the chiller compressors. We calculated that exploiting the waste heat from the coolers was enough to make methane digestion practical. A couple of large farms in Western Vermont tried the idea, and it seemed to work fairly well, but it required a lot of tweaking, and they eventually abandoned the idea, because it required extra work in the farming business - not such a great idea. Amory Lovins cited the idea in his book Soft Energy Paths, with his usual optimism, but as far as I know, Amory has never had any manure on his feet. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 29 22:00:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA12548 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:00:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16882; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:45:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:41:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16616 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:41:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailmessenger.tidalwave.net (mailmessenger.tidalwave.net [208.206.112.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16611 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:41:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from tidalwave.net ([208.206.116.36]) by mailmessenger.tidalwave.net (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with ESMTP id 303 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:53:21 -0500 Message-ID: <36620911.CC7B52E2@tidalwave.net> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:55:15 -0500 From: Khmet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: The Gap Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5132 Someone posted an inqury regarding this, thought I would pass it on. hey all - thought you might want to read this. It doesn't feel to me like the whole story is being told. anyone know any more about this? - jk << ENVIRONMENTALISTS CALL FOR BOYCOTT OF GAP STORES Scripps Howard News Service Release date: 11-27-98 Must credit the Sacramento Bee By NANCY VOGEL Sacramento Bee SACRAMENTO, Calif. - What might have been another local round in Mendocino County's timber wars has grown into an unlikely national boycott of three clothing stores - The Gap, Banana Republic and Old Navy - as environmentalists try to pressure the new owners of 350 square miles of timberland. On Friday, the heaviest shopping day of the year, environmentalists plan to protest how the family that founded The Gap manages land it bought just four months ago from Louisiana-Pacific Corp. Organized rapidly in cyberspace, the boycott will include a rally in front of The Gap store in San Francisco's Union Square and pickets from Santa Rosa to Chicago to New York. North Coast environmentalists say they want the Fisher family, founders and major shareholders in The Gap Inc., to swear off herbicides and clearcuts and cut fewer trees. But the family says it bought the land and two sawmills in part to show that a timber company can be environmentally sensitive. They say they intend to have their logging practices certified as sustainable from an independent team of experts. State regulators call the company "a breath of fresh air." "From the signs I'm seeing, they're trying to cut back and run responsible operations," said Rodger Thompson, deputy chief of forest practices along the north and central coast for the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection. "Our field people on the ground are liking what they're seeing." At the same time officials with the Fisher family firm, the Mendocino Redwood Company, urge consumers to call with concerns and read their Web page (http://mendocinoredwoodco.com ),boycott organizers say they've found an audience on their Web site (www.elksoft.com/gwa ) from England to India to Japan. "They love the redwood forest," said Mary Pjerrou, president of the Redwood Coast Watershed Alliance, "and they're shocked to learn that anyone is cutting redwoods at all. And to find that their favorite store is doing it is even more shocking." Pjerrou accuses the Fisher family of perpetuating the worst logging practices of Louisiana-Pacific Corp., practices that bury coho salmon spawning beds in sediment, trigger landslides and wreck wildlife habitat. In particular, activists want the company to shun herbicides and clear cuts, halt winter-time logging and slow the pace of logging overall. The Fisher family said it intends to, at least for the next couple of years, reduce harvest levels 15 percent from what Louisiana-Pacific Corp. planned. Some herbicides and clear-cutting are necessary to help Douglas fir and redwood take hold again among stands of tan oak, they say. But those practices, as well as winter-time logging, will be done with care that goes beyond state forestry rules, said John Fisher, general manager of Sansome Properties, which is the investment arm of the Fisher family and owner of Mendocino Redwood Company. "Because we're a family we can take a much longer perspective," said Fisher. "We don't have shareholders to please, we don't have quarterly profits we have to demonstrate. That allows us to do many things differently." The company's critics, he said, seem to want no logging whatsoever. "If we tomorrow said we're not going to cut another tree," said Fisher, "there would be 650 people out of work and we don't believe that would prove anything about how to operate a timber company sustainably." In July, Sansome Properties bought 235,000 acres, sawmills in Fort Bragg and Ukiah and a distributing center from Louisiana-Pacific. Only 18 of the acres had never been logged, said Fisher. Initially, North Coast environmentalists said they had high hopes for the Fisher family, whose Gap stores sell khaki pants, jeans and flannel shirts popular with college students and yuppies. One of the sons of the founder of The Gap sits on the board of directors of the Natural Resources Defense Council. Mendocino Redwood Company officials say they intend to log about 2.5 percent of their inventory, or roughly 40 million board-feet a year, for the next two years. A greater share could be cut after that. Before it sold the property, Louisia-Pacific had filed long-term plans with the state showing they intended to log an average of 60 million board-feet a year for the next ten years. The company will use some herbicides and clearing of forest to control tan oak and madrone trees so that redwood and Douglas fir can once again dominate the Mendocino forests, said Sandy Dean, the company president. "We're trying to be open and honest about what we're trying to accomplish," he said. "It's up to our neighbors in Mendocino County to decide whether they want us to be their partner. I think that when they look at what we're trying to accomplish and compare that to others, they'll find that we are a great partner." (Distributed by Scripps Howard News Service.) >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Nov 29 23:59:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA13909 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:59:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21651; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:44:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:40:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21331 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:39:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA21325 for ; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:39:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-06-28.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.129.28]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA10819; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:53:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 00:00:10 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE1BF4.65953500.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'GrenSheltr@aol.com'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: No insulation under radiant slab-Maine Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:30:18 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5133 On Sunday, November 29, 1998 10:23 AM, GrenSheltr@aol.com [SMTP:GrenSheltr@aol.com] wrote: > having said that I am really freaked by the recent JLC article on termites and > exterior foam, so in a real quandry what to do about my slab on grade house to > be started soon, are people changing their foam procedures ???? Linda Lloyd You can use rigid fibreglass or rockwool. Perlite/mica has been used , althoug its R-value is reasoanably low. Termites crawl through them but dont destroy their R-value. Consider adding more termite-resistant insulation in the stem wall areas too, by using products such as AAC, Durisol, Rastra, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 30 10:20:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA18810 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:20:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08894; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:05:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:00:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08426 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:00:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08418 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from myrtle.rtpnc.epa.gov by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26439) with ESMTP id <0F38002M3Q6W9R@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:11:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26438) with SMTP id <0F3800H0AQ73AA@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:11:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:10:27 -0500 Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:03:00 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: Using agricultural or sewage waste methane for fuel To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5134 There have been a few postings lately about using agricultural or waste processes to create usable methane. EPA has a number of methane outreach programs that work with the various industries to encourage them to capture and use the methane produced. If you would like more information, please visit their web page at: http://www.epa.gov/outreach/ Steve Offutt ============= Contact Information: Steve Offutt - ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html ============= >>> malcolm.scott@which.net 11/28/98 01:04pm >>> I have an idea that all large UK sewage facilities used to produce gas for their own use and I am sure that mostly they stopped some time ago. . . (snip) Malcolm Scott >>>>. . . the City of Asheville, NC is doing this - also collecting methane from the landfill & piping it several miles to town for city vehicles, etc. I had the idea that this was pretty common. - Karlene Bell >>>. . .This is probably hopelessly out of date, but back in 1976, a friend and I were exploring the use of methane for dairy farms in Vermont. - David Foley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 30 10:21:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA18824 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:21:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09026; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:06:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:02:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08575 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:02:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08569 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:02:30 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DVBGNA6D; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 10:15:49 EST To: vernonlecount@cityweb.de Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 09:05:21 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: No insulation under radiant slab-Maine Message-ID: <19981130.091700.-153125.1.sbtauto@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-14,16-28 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5135 Question: Our experience with foam based products here in the southwest is that they rot to pieces with exposure to heat and sun. Can anyone confirm this is an issue elsewhere with this product? Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7147 http://www.sbtdesigns.com www.artistmall.com On Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:15:15 +0100 Vernon LeCount writes: >Sorry for the long post, but: > >Some sources suggest that a radiant slab have one inch of foam >insulation >under the slab and two inches of perimeter foam and a foam "skirt" >extending >out from the perimeter of the slab. The Kitec people (radiant pipe) >suggest >that the slab could have an additional two inches of foam under the >slab for >the first four feet of slab from the perimeter. > ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 30 14:03:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23138 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:03:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03351; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:47:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:42:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02739 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:42:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.capecod.net (mailhost.capecod.net [204.255.214.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02730 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:42:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrbh (camb0897.capecod.net [209.244.240.135]) by mailhost.capecod.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id NAA16650 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:07:39 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981201011015.006f1ec0@capecod.net> X-Sender: bhammond@capecod.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 01:10:15 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Bruce Hammond Subject: GBlist: options for old sliding glass doors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5136 Dear Greenbuilding list, I recently bought a small cape that has sliding glass doors across the entire southern side. The house was designed to be passive solar with a tile-covered concrete slab behind the windows. The windows (and the house) date from '82; they are double-paned, wooden-framed and in good condition, but I assume cause a lot of heat loss. There are currently old window quilts installed which we find ugly. We want to do something to: reduce nightime heat loss; provide privacy; reduce summer heat gain; imporve the aesthetics of the room. The options we are considering are: replacing the window quilts (got a quote of $2K from a company in Ontario); installing modern windows and normal drapes (assume this would be very pricy; installing thermal drapes (do they provide much insultation?. I would much appreciate any recommendations or thoughts on other options. Thanks a lot, Bruce Hammond ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 30 15:00:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA24335 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:00:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07798; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:44:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:40:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07151 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:40:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07070 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:39:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust183.tnt1.st-petersburg.fl.da.uu.net [208.254.30.183]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id NAA04052; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:52:55 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3662F7B9.40A6@gte.net> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 14:53:29 -0500 From: Cindy Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Developmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jminter@famu.edu, delta@dlcwest.com, greenbuilding@crest.org CC: GreenClips@aol.com Subject: GBlist: Living Wall Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5137 Dear Friends, After last summer's discussion on Canada Life's Living Wall, I thought many of you would be interested in the following from GreenClips http://solstice.crest.org/sustainable/greenclips/info.html (keyword search) http://www.greendesign.net/greenclips (browse contents) ECOSYSTEM PURIFIES INDOOR AIR Research experiments on a "breathing wall" air purification system that the Canada Life Assurance Company built four years ago show that it successfully eliminates or dramatically reduces airborne contaminants. Wolfgang Amelung of Genetron Systems developed the lava rock breathing wall and a flora and fauna ecosystem in a 210-square-meter room in Canada Life's downtown Toronto offices. Water flows continuously over the porous lava rock, through which air is drawn. The water carries away airborne impurities that the ecosystem then breaks down and absorbs. The high-order ecosystem includes about 8,000 plants of more than 250 species as well as insects, mollusks, fish, frogs, and other amphibians. Guelph University researchers have conducted indoor air quality experiments on site involving low levels of chemicals like formaldehyde, toluene, and trichloroethylene (TCE) typically found in building and finish materials. Following the success of this first large-scale trial, other versions of the breathing wall ecosystem are springing up in places like clothing retailer Club Monaco's Toronto headquarters. And, plagued with air quality problems, the Queens University Department of Education is planning a more extensive version of the system which supplies and returns air to an ecosystem in a rooftop greenhouse. [For more information on Genetron Systems, visit .] - Canadian Architect, Oct 98, p 30, by John McMinn. Does anybody know of such systems in the US? Cindy Pollock Shea http://sustainable.state.fl.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Nov 30 20:13:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA01931 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:13:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA28410; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:57:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:53:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA28012 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:53:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp4.nwnexus.com (smtp4.nwnexus.com [206.63.63.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA27998 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 19:52:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from dell (blv-lx104-ip36.nwnexus.net [206.63.41.136]) by smtp4.nwnexus.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA06325 for ; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:06:11 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981130170929.007a5ad0@mail.halcyon.com> X-Sender: obrien@mail.halcyon.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 17:09:29 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "O'Brien & Company" Subject: GBlist: "Healthy" health care bldg. Open House Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5138 FYI (especially for those living in Seattle area): Contacts: Kathleen O'Brien, O'Brien & Company ph: 206/842-8995 email: obrien@halcyon.com Dr. Russ Borneman,DDS ph: 360/293-8451 email: drruss@fidalgo.net ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------- Open House For "Healthy" Health Care Building A new health care facility completed last spring in Anacortes, Washington will be hosting an Open House Friday, December 4, from 4-7 pm, at 29th and M Street. The Sound Health Building is unique in the region in that it is specially constructed to provide people with allergies and multiple chemical sensitivities (MCS) a place to obtain dental and other health services in a clean and safe environment. For many of those with MCS, ordinary commercial building interiors can trigger violent allergic reactions. Although the building was designed especially for this clientele, others who wish to lower their exposure to harmful chemicals will also want to take advantage of the facility. The Open House will provide an opportunity for the public to learn about building materials and methods involved in creating a "healthy" indoor environment. Building owner Russ Borneman, DDS, conceived of the idea of an environmentally sound, dedicated health services building for the chemically sensitive in the early 1990s, after treating several patients with MCS. In his practice, he has taken some very unusual measures to limit patient exposure to toxins, carcinogens, and allergens. For example, after learning about the toxicity of silver-mercury fillings 15 years ago, he stopped using them and had his own fillings replaced. Since then he has incorporated strict protocols for the safe replacement, handling, and recycling of silver-mercury. He is the only dentist north of Seattle who has installed recycling equipment to capture 99% of the mercury and prevent environmental exposure through waste water. The high-output environmental system in his treatment rooms completely captures and treats any mercury vapor. Borneman is one of only a handful of dentists in the United States with a mercury vapor analyzer, which is able to accurately measure the mercury vapor released from an individual's silver-mercury fillings. Borneman's dental practice is the building's only tenant so far, but he would like to lease the remaining spaces to practitioners like himself who take "nontraditional" approaches to health care. The Bainbridge Island environmental building consulting firm O'Brien & Company provided detailed product information regarding healthy building material alternates for everything from glues and sealants to floors and furnishings. The Environmental Home Center in Seattle assisted in procuring environmentally friendly products. Listed below are some of the building's special features and the reasons for selecting them: Solid wood (Douglas fir) used in place of engineered wood -- avoids formaldehyde "offgassing." Crystal Aire sealant for shell -- low VOCs (volatile organic compounds). Seals out potential offgassing from exterior materials, such as plywood. Sherwin Williams Health Spec Interior Paint (used for medical facilities) -- low VOCs, low odor, easy to clean. Hardwood floors (Douglas fir), w/special wax (no wall-to-wall carpeting) -- avoids "offgassing" from synthetic carpets. (Only one rug in building, which is nontoxic.) No VOCs from floor wax. Linoleum (Florbo "marmoleum") on bathroom floors -- durable, all-natural, and no VOCs as in vinyl flooring. All-copper piping for water; cast iron only in waste pipes -- highest quality drinking water; no lead, no VOCs from polyvinylchloride (PVC) piping. Cabinetry uses Medite II wood-based substrate -- special formaldehyde-free substrate (purchased from Higher Plane Cabinetworks in Bellingham and Stelte Company in Mukilteo). Five separate heating, cooling, ventilation systems, one for each tenant space -- each space is also designed for easy installation of electronic air cleaner, if desired by tenant. Each tenant area is relatively isolated from others in terms of indoor air quality -- reduces chance of contamination spreading from one space to another, should it occur. Air intakes located up high, near roofline. -- avoids pulling in polluted air from cars, dumpster. Ott Safety Lights (radiation shielded, full-spectrum lighting system designed by Dr. John Ott) -- reduces glare, lessens eye strain and increases visual acuity. Simulates 91% of the sun's visible light while effectively shielding harmful electromagnetic radiation. A healthy alternative energy source for human sunlight needs. O'Brien & Company PO Box 10705 Bainbridge Island, WA 98110 (206)842-8995 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 1 00:58:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA06264 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 00:58:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA12950; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 00:41:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Dec 1998 00:37:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA12640 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 00:37:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA12636 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 00:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip08.ivnet.net [206.101.73.168]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA15848; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 20:40:58 -0800 Message-ID: <36638282.A4DCA15D@ivnet.net> Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:45:38 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: sbtauto@juno.com CC: vernonlecount@cityweb.de, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: No insulation under radiant slab-Maine References: <19981130.091700.-153125.1.sbtauto@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5139 I don't know about heat, but sun will damage foam quickly. I use sheet metal to cover it between the siding and below grade about 6 inches. Gutter coil material works OK. Expect to pay about $.6 to $.75 per square foot. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon sbtauto@juno.com wrote: > > Question: > > Our experience with foam based products here in the southwest is that > they rot to pieces with exposure to heat and sun. > > Can anyone confirm this is an issue elsewhere with this product? > > Steve Shepard > SBT Automation > 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7147 > http://www.sbtdesigns.com > www.artistmall.com > > On Sun, 29 Nov 1998 00:15:15 +0100 Vernon LeCount > writes: > >Sorry for the long post, but: > > > >Some sources suggest that a radiant slab have one inch of foam > >insulation > >under the slab and two inches of perimeter foam and a foam "skirt" > >extending > >out from the perimeter of the slab. The Kitec people (radiant pipe) > >suggest > >that the slab could have an additional two inches of foam under the > >slab for > >the first four feet of slab from the perimeter. > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. > Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html > or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 1 04:39:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA07956 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 04:39:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA19873; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 04:24:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Dec 1998 04:18:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA19570 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 04:18:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA19566 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 04:18:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.81] (ka2-81.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.81]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA00225 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 04:31:59 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:04:05 -0500 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Bathroom venting again Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id EAA19567 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5140 Hallo, all. As fate would have it, I'm going to have some extra space in the bathroom window buck, and I could put that bathroom window up high, near the bathroom ceiling. So, what about this idea? If the bathroom window buck is 'way up near the ceiling, and there's a 12x12 inch opening in that buck, why not just put a small box fan there and hook it up to a switch? Would that adequately vent the bathroom? With that large an opening, it would seem to be much easier to get a quiet fan to move a sufficient quantity of air. Or should I just put a standard 4" pipe through the wall and hook up a bathroom fan? Thanks for input. Putting the walls up soon! -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 1 12:26:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14598 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:26:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11669; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:23:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:19:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA11126 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:19:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11122 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:19:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DVD939ZS; Tue, 01 Dec 1998 12:18:50 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:23:06 -0800 Subject: GBlist: EBN article Message-ID: <19981201.122315.3774.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,9-10,18-19,24-29 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5141 Dear Alex et al, I just finished reading your article on roofing in the lastest issue of EBN. While I agree with your assessment of built up roofing (BUR) I would like to add one more factor on the negative side. For 8 1/2 year my husband and I owned a number of commercial properties (motels and apartment buildings) here is Florida. Several of them had BUR so I know whereof I speak. In the S. Florida climate it was a major pain in the ----. The reflective properties of the aggregate are not as effective as they should be. The worst thing we experienced, and the major source of repairs, was leaks resulting from the intense heat causing nails to pop out of place. Leaks were not only a persitant cause for irritation, finding them was very difficult. This type of roofing has a tendency to result in puddling in low areas, which are often some distance from the actual hole. In addition, even after locating the errant nail the aggregate often made locating the hole difficult. Once inside the water would seek a low point and so make pinpointing the leak even move difficult since, without a crawl space, the entry point was hard to trace back. This often meant poking holes in the ceiling to drain it and keep it from falling down. I would never invest in another property in this climate if it has BUR! Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 1 12:47:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14973 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:47:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13422; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:45:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:42:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13044 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:41:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay3.smtp.psi.net (relay3.smtp.psi.net [38.8.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13040 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:41:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [149.103.1.200] (helo=mailgate.nyserda.org) by relay3.smtp.psi.net with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) for greenbuilding@crest.org id 0zktnv-00051a-00; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 12:41:39 -0500 Received: from ccMail by mailgate.nyserda.org (ccMail Link to SMTP R6.01.01) id AA912533231; Tue, 01 Dec 98 12:54:27 -0500 Message-Id: <9812019125.AA912533231@mailgate.nyserda.org> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.01.01 Date: Tue, 01 Dec 98 12:13:53 -0500 From: "Craig Kneeland" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: healthy health care facility MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5142 Do you have data you can share on the cost differential (as compared to a typical health care center) for this facility? Also, can you tell us what the implications of the decision to design and build a healthy facility have had on the dentist's practice (eg: increase or decrease in patients, increase or decrease in fees)? Thanks. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 1 13:15:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15538 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:15:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15405; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:13:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:09:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14938 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:09:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14928 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:09:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DVECV2NH; Tue, 01 Dec 1998 13:07:52 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 13:12:16 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Linoleum Message-ID: <19981201.131216.3334.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-9 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5143 John Bower et al, Kudos to John for his reaction to the EBN article on linoleum. I agree with his assessment and his prioritization. If the environment is protected and noone is well enough to appreciate it we will have done a disservice. Beverly Weiter Environs Interior Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 1 17:43:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA22521 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:43:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05234; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:40:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:36:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04707 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:36:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from kalessin.southern.co.nz (kalessin.southern.co.nz [202.37.188.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04666 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 17:35:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (mail@localhost) by kalessin.southern.co.nz (8.8.5/8.6.6.Beta6) id LAA17400 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:34:51 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from ppp017.southern.co.nz(202.37.189.17) by kalessin.southern.co.nz via smap (V2.0) id xma017380; Wed, 2 Dec 98 11:34:18 +1300 X-Sender: bywateri@southern.co.nz Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:37:41 +1200 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: bywateri@convertech.co.nz (Ian Bywater) Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom venting again Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5144 Dear Speireag and list Why not use a roofline window? No need for a vent fan; my bathroom is perfectly ventilated all year by natural convection with the Velux in "vent" position. Ian Christchurch, NZ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 1 19:22:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA24864 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:22:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12386; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:19:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:15:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA12022 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:15:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12014 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:15:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mag1.magmacom.com (mag1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.210]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA10080; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:15:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (port221.magma.ca [206.191.5.221]) by mag1.magmacom.com (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id TAA23563; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:15:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199812020015.TAA23563@mag1.magmacom.com> X-Sender: stephen@mail.magma.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 19:03:10 -0500 To: bywateri@convertech.co.nz (Ian Bywater), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Stephen Thwaites Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom venting again In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5145 At 11:37 AM 12/2/98 +1200, Ian Bywater wrote: >Dear Speireag and list > >Why not use a roofline window? No need for a vent fan; my bathroom is >perfectly ventilated all year by natural convection with the Velux in >"vent" position. This may work in a mild climate, but if you're in a cooler climate, beware of condensation if you are using a roof window/skylight in a bathroom window!!!!!!!! The edge of inner glazing of most skylight/roof windows is usually so close to the outside (thermally speaking) that it stays cold whether or not the manufacturer used a warm edge spacer. I can think of no sillier thing for a cold climate window contractor to do than suggest installing a roof window/skylight in a bathroom. >From someone who now knows better........... Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ottawa Ontario (the world's second coldest national capital) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 1 19:40:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA25107 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:40:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA13539; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:37:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:33:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA13217 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:33:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13213 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:33:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-6-143.cyberzone.net [209.150.6.143]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Tue, 1 Dec 1998 19:15:34 -0500 Message-ID: <3664B57E.3014@cyberzone.net> Date: Tue, 01 Dec 1998 19:35:48 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "George, Drew" CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Large Scale Green Building References: <199811210501.AAA23121@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5146 George, Drew wrote: > > Dear Listers, > Bruce Sullivan and I were just discussing creating another Green Building List that would focus on Green Building issues related to large scale construction projects... > > I am interested in the group's thoughts on this idea. Are there other > people out there who really enjoy this list but sometimes struggle to find > posts that help them figure out how to make large projects more > sustainable? > Would a separate list be of value or do you think it would be redundant? Drew, Sorry for not responding sooner to this but I'm in the process of a move - all other life processes seem to stop! Regarding a "large scale" list, I would have to disagree. First, I don't think there's enough email traffic to warrant another list. Second, I think that we all have something to gain from info that isn't exactly applicable to our immediate needs. And third (and most importantly), you mention that you are "green building champion" at your company (our company has marketing champions so I'm familiar with this new buzzword!). It seems to me that you could have a great influence over "green" building practices that we can all appreciate, make use of and cheer on. For example, one small jobsite produces a small pile of debris; what are the economics of jobsite recycling for several large jobs going on at once? Five gallons of no-VOC paint is a "good thing"; what about a tractor-trailer load? I work for a large A/E firm that does a considerable volume of construction and has a some clout in the region - although the process can be like trying to turn an ocean liner, small changes on large projects can have great positive influences - small changes that started out as "small" ideas on this "small" list. In closing, I would again encourage working within the system that already exists. I haven't been a member of this list for long, but I've found that most of the concepts discussed can be as small or as large as anyone wants to make them. Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 2 13:18:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11165 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:18:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02988; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:16:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:11:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02406 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:10:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.grove.ufl.edu (root@mail2.grove.ufl.edu [128.227.8.82]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02395 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:10:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from dogwood.grove.ufl.edu (root@grove.ufl.edu [128.227.8.12]) by mail2.grove.ufl.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6/1) with ESMTP id NAA29353 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:10:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from Kibert4 (p5205.cfaa.ufl.edu [10.5.5.205]) by dogwood.grove.ufl.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6/1) with SMTP id NAA08036 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:10:22 -0500 (EST) Comments: grove thinks this came from p5205.cfaa.ufl.edu [10.5.5.205] (hop 0) Message-Id: <199812021810.NAA08036%p5205.cfaa.ufl.edu@dogwood.grove.ufl.edu> X-Sender: minou@grove.ufl.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 13:11:14 -0500 To: greenbuilding From: Brad Guy Subject: GBlist: Steve Badanes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5147 Can anybody on this list help me with how to contact Steve Badanes? Also is Lynn Froeschle (sp?) on this list? Thnak you, Brad Guy Center for Construction and Environment ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 2 14:16:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12396 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07113; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:14:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:09:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA06468 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:08:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from harrier.csrv.uidaho.edu (root@harrier.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.224]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06423 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:08:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin003.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.13]) by harrier.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/) with SMTP id LAA01962; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 11:08:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36658EDD.367A@uidaho.edu> Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 11:02:53 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Guy CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Steve Badanes References: <199812021810.NAA08036%p5205.cfaa.ufl.edu@dogwood.grove.ufl.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5148 Brad, I believe Steve Badannes still teaches at the University of Washington School of Architecture in Seattle. Kurt Rathmann Moscow, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 2 14:20:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12479 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:20:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07619; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:18:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:13:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07046 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:13:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07039 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:13:19 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 0ORLa28301 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:10:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:10:14 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Steve Badanes Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5149 In a message dated 98-12-02 13:13:27 EST, minou@grove.ufl.edu writes: << Can anybody on this list help me with how to contact Steve Badanes? >> I have emailed you his office phone number at U of Washington Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 2 14:36:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12832 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08888; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:34:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:29:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08373 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:29:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com (mail.planeta.com [206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08366 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 14:29:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000054786 for ; Wed, 02 Dec 1998 13:25:59 -0600 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 98 13:41:22 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: GBlist: Greenbuilding and floors To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5771782.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5150 Hi folks! Got this one recently, and don't know what to tell them. Anyone on the list have any feedback? (please CC any answers to them, as they're not on the list) Bill Christensen ---------- Dear Bill, Greetings from Blanco, TX! We are getting ready to lay pine floors in our new house. Having never done this before, we have the following question: What is the best material to use between a plywood subfloor and the long-leaf pine flooring (tongue and groove)? We have been advised to use tarpaper by various tradespeople. Do you have concerns about the possible toxicity of tarpaper? Is there another material that you would recommend instead of tarpaper? Thanks for your valuable advice! Anya & Harvey anya@moment.net -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 2 15:47:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14461 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:47:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13805; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:45:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:39:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13300 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:39:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc532.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.157]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13296 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 15:39:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from AE-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 02 Dec 1998 15:41:36 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 15:41:23 -0500 From: "Arnie Katz" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com Cc: anya@moment.net Subject: Re: GBlist: Greenbuilding and floors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA13297 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5151 Anya & Harvey: I've used red rosin paper under pine floors, & it's worked fine. But I don't have a clue as to what's in red rosin paper, or what it outgasses. It certainly smells a lot better than tar paper, though. I'm sure others on the list can answer that question. Good Luck, arnie Arnie Katz Building Science Specialist Advanced Energy 909 Capability Drive Raleigh, NC 27606 919/857-9029 FAX: 919/832-2696 akatz@aec.ncsu.edu >>> We are getting ready to lay pine floors in our new house. Having never done this before, we have the following question: What is the best material to use between a plywood subfloor and the long-leaf pine flooring (tongue and groove)? We have been advised to use tarpaper by various tradespeople. Do you have concerns about the possible toxicity of tarpaper? Is there another material that you would recommend instead of tarpaper? Thanks for your valuable advice! Anya & Harvey anya@moment.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 2 16:14:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA16111 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:13:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15599; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:11:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:07:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA15049 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:06:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.8] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA15037 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 16:06:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.47]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4670100 ; Wed, 02 Dec 1998 12:57:31 -0800 Message-ID: <3665AB6B.52B654FE@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 02 Dec 1998 13:04:43 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Greenbuilding and floors References: <5771782.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5152 tarpaper has also been the standard here for squeaks and/or vapour. As the alternative there is an untreated building paper in rolls similar to tarpaper(under various names) inexpensive and basic (essentially recycled newsprint and thick, similar to a drywall surface). I would tape all the the plywood seams if this paper was used. Synthetic building wrap is also a good option. The standby is the daily news always a good diversion for future renovators. John greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com wrote: > Hi folks! > > Got this one recently, and don't know what to tell them. Anyone on the list > have any feedback? (please CC any answers to them, as they're not on the > list) > > Bill Christensen > ---------- > Dear Bill, > Greetings from Blanco, TX! > We are getting ready to lay pine floors in our new house. Having never > done this before, we have the following question: What is the best > material to use between a plywood subfloor and the long-leaf pine > flooring (tongue and groove)? We have been advised to use tarpaper by > various tradespeople. Do you have concerns about the possible toxicity > of tarpaper? Is there another material that you would recommend instead > of tarpaper? > > Thanks for your valuable advice! > Anya & Harvey > anya@moment.net > > -- > > Bill Christensen > billc@greenbuilder.com > Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective > Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 > WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 2 18:05:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA21408 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:05:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA24084; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 18:03:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:57:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23247 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:57:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23225 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:57:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.218] (ka4-218.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.218]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA15079; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:56:31 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 17:51:34 -0500 To: bywateri@convertech.co.nz (Ian Bywater), Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom venting again Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id RAA23233 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5153 Sgrìobh Ian Bywater: > Why not use a roofline window? No need for a vent fan; my bathroom is > perfectly ventilated all year by natural convection with the Velux in > "vent" position. I'm not sure what a "roofline window" is. Would we call them skylights here in the U.S.? If so, then I won't use one for several reasons: there's no hole in the roof there, I'm minimizing roof penetrations, the engineering around the living roof would be problematical to waterproof because the roof has a steep slope for a living room, and condensation is a problem in any skylight in New England during the winter. If I were building in my native coastal northern California, I might go for it, though. If you mean a window to the exterior through a wall, with the window placed right at the top of the room's wall, then that's what I have in mind. Does anyone know why I can't just place a window high in the wall and put a fan in it to vent? Or must I put a standard vent pipe through the wall and use a bathroom vent? If so, then why? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 2 21:10:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA24941 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 21:10:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA02958; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 20:26:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Dec 1998 20:22:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA02629 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 20:22:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from kalessin.southern.co.nz (kalessin.southern.co.nz [202.37.188.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA02625 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 20:22:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (mail@localhost) by kalessin.southern.co.nz (8.8.5/8.6.6.Beta6) id OAA29537; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:21:56 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from ppp017.southern.co.nz(202.37.189.17) by kalessin.southern.co.nz via smap (V2.0) id xma029519; Thu, 3 Dec 98 14:21:28 +1300 X-Sender: bywateri@southern.co.nz Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 14:24:54 +1200 To: Speireag Alden , greenbuilding@crest.org From: bywateri@convertech.co.nz (Ian Bywater) Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom venting again Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5154 > I'm not sure what a "roofline window" is. Would we call them skylights >here in the U.S.? Yes, I mean a skylight. The make I refer to is double glazed and can be swung open from below with a pole or closed completely or, in the closed position, it has a ventilation setting. Works fine, no energy needed but we don't have sub-sub-zero winters! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 2 23:34:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA27282 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 23:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10847; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 23:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 2 Dec 1998 23:28:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA10412 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 23:28:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA10408 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 23:28:43 -0500 (EST) received: from acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.206) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ740550; Wed, 2 Dec 98 21:28:32 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA133022; Wed, 2 Dec 1998 21:27:46 -0700 Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 21:27:45 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca To: "greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Greenbuilding and floors In-Reply-To: <5771782.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5155 You said:" What is the best material to use between a plywood subfloor and the long-leaf pine flooring (tongue and groove)? We have been advised to use tarpaper by various tradespeople." _____________________________________________________________________________ Bill: We use T&G pine WITHOUT subfloor or tar paper. Saves money and time. Also uses the structural integrity of the floor (that you paid for). Jorg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 3 12:48:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10520 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:48:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15673; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:45:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:40:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15024 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:40:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15005 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:39:57 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 3NEQa07663 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:39:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <9a47dd38.3666cccd@aol.com> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 12:39:25 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: lost it Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5156 someone made a post about info available -- LEED, BREEAM, and BEES -- thought that I had saved it but cannot find it, can someone resend to me please Thanks Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 3 13:39:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11818 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 13:39:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19744; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 13:37:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 3 Dec 1998 13:33:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19317 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 13:33:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19299 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 1998 13:33:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.157] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Thu, 3 Dec 1998 10:39:44 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: lost it Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 10:36:33 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1299440911-1860626@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5157 Linda Just a reminder that you can find every message ever sent to the list in the archives at the CREST web site. Follow the link to Discussion Groups. It's a good way to track down those lost bits of information. Bruce S co-moderator >someone made a post about info available -- LEED, BREEAM, and BEES -- thought >that I had saved it but cannot find it, can someone resend to me please >Thanks >Linda Lloyd ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 4 02:53:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA29165 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 02:53:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA00140; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 02:50:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Dec 1998 02:46:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA29808 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 02:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA29794 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 02:45:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mcmail.com ([195.44.19.15]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.117.11); Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:43:01 +0000 Message-ID: <36672820.5E14BC3E@mcmail.com> Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 00:09:05 +0000 From: Henry Amos Organization: Amos and Einstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Multi-storey housing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5158 Here in the 'chilly' North of England, we are designing a range of 4-6 storey blocks of 100 flats to a sustainable agenda. I have two tough questions to which any suggestions would be most welcome. 1. Does anyone know of any examples of this type of development (commercial wooden PANEL construction), with information to convince a client of any/all choices. 2. Can anyone suggest a cunning heating system to use with cellulose infill panel construction, which is not electric, as suggested by the client due to the decreased loads (are small condensing gas boilers ineffective due to high capital cost and possible redundancy?). The development is speculative, so the perceived quality and perceived individual quotas of energy cost per flat are important. ("I'm not paying for the guy next door to have his window open"). The site is fairly windy, and we have solar gain sufficient for passive gain, and possible future active gain, and plenty of recyclable rain. Thank you for your time, and I apologise if anyone has a difficulty with this type of question: we are all trying to learn and create effective strategies and actions. Henry Amos ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 4 09:29:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04909 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:29:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10641; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:27:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:23:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10124 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10109; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 09:22:39 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ917983; Fri, 4 Dec 98 07:22:37 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA24562; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:22:26 -0700 Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 07:22:25 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: Getting a permit to destroy the environment (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5159 For comment and action, if appropriate. Jorg Ostrowski _____________________________________________________________________ Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 21:55:12 -0500 From: Don Howell <75604.3430@compuserve.com> This was an actual letter from, and reply to, the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality. ================================== Mr. Ryan De Vries 2088 Dagget Pierson, MI 49339 Dear Mr. DeVries: SUBJECT: DEQ File No. 97-59-0023-1 T11N, R10W, Sec. 20, Montcalm County It has come to the attention of the Department of Environmental Quality that there has been recent unauthorised activity on the above-referenced parcel of property. You have been certified as the legal landowner and/or contractor who did the following unauthorised activity: Construction and maintenance of two wood debris dams across the outlet stream of Spring Pond. A permit must be issued prior to the start of this type of activity. A review of the Department's files shows that no permits have been issued. Therefore, the Department has determined that this activity is in violation of Part 301, Inland Lakes and Streams, of the Natural Resource and Environmental Protection Act, Act 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being sections 324.30101 to 324.30113 of the Michigan Compiled Laws, annotated. The Department has been informed that one or both of the dams partially failed during a recent rain event, causing debris and flooding at downstream locations. We find that dams of this nature are inherently hazardous and cannot be permitted. The Department therefore orders you to cease and desist all unauthorized activities at this location, and to restore the stream to a free-flow condition by removing all wood and brush forming the dams from the stream channel. All restoration work shall be completed no later than January 31, 1998. Please notify this office when the restoration has been completed so that a follow-up site inspection may be scheduled by our staff. Failure to comply with this request or any further unauthorized activity on the site may result in this case being referred for elevated enforcement action. We anticipate and would appreciate your full cooperation in this matter. Please feel free to contact me at this office if you have any questions. Sincerely, David L. Price District Representative Land and Water Management Division ================================== RESPONSE Dear Mr. Price: Re: DEQ File No. 97-59-0023; T11N, R10W, Sec 20; Montcalm County Your certified letter dated 97-12-17 has been handed to me to respond to. You sent out a great deal of carbon copies to a lot of people, but you neglected to include their addresses. You will, therefore, have to send them a copy of my response. First of all, Mr. Ryan De Vries is not the legal landowner and/or contractor at 2088 Dagget, Pierson, Michigan - I am the legal owner and a couple of beavers are in the (State unauthorised) process of constructing and maintaining two wood "debris" dams across the outlet stream of my Spring Pond. While I did not pay for, authorise, nor supervise, their dam project, I think they would be highly offended that you call their skillful use of natural building materials "debris." I would like to challenge your department to attempt to emulate their dam project any time and/or any place you choose. I believe I can safely state there is no way you could ever match their dam skills, their dam resourcefulness, their dam ingenuity, their dam persistence, their dam determination and/or their dam work ethic. As to your request, I do not think the beavers are aware that they first must fill out a dam permit prior to the start of this type of dam activity. My first dam question to you is: (1) are you trying to discriminate against my Spring Pond Beavers, or (2) do you require all beavers throughout this State to conform to said dam request? If you are not discriminating against these particular beavers, through the Freedom of Information Act I request completed copies of all those other applicable beaver dam permits that have been issued. Perhaps we will see if there really is a dam violation of Part 301, Inland Lakes and Streams, of the Natural Resource and Environmental Protection Act, Act 451of the Public Acts of 1994,being sections 324.30101 to 324.30113 of the Michigan Compiled Laws, annotated. I have several concerns. My first concern is: aren't the beavers entitled to legal representation? The Spring Pond Beavers are financially destitute and are unable to pay for said representation -- so the State will have to provide them with a dam lawyer. The Department's dam concern that either one or both of the dams failed during a recent rain event causing flooding is proof that this is a natural occurrence which the department is required to protect. In other words, we should leave the Spring Pond Beavers alone rather than harassing them and calling their dam names. If you want the stream "restored" to a dam free-flow condition -- please contact the beavers -- but if you are going to arrest them (they obviously did not pay any attention to your dam letter-being unable to read English) be sure they are read their Miranda rights first. As for me, I am not going to cause more flooding or dam debris jams by interfering with these dam builders. If you want to hurt these dam beavers -- be aware I am sending a copy of your dam letter and this response to PETA. If your dam Department seriously finds all dams of this nature inherently hazardous and truly will not permit their existence in this State -- I seriously hope you are not selectively enforcing this dam policy -- or once again both I and the Spring Pond Beavers will scream prejudice! In my humble opinion, the Spring Pond Beavers have a right to build their unauthorised dams as long as the sky is blue, the grass is green and water flows downstream. They have more dam right than I do to live and enjoy Spring Pond. If the Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Protection lives to its name, it should protect the natural resources (Beavers) and the environment (Beavers' Dams). So, as far as the beavers and I are concerned, this dam case can be referred for more elevated enforcement action right now. Why wait until 98-01-31? The Spring Pond Beavers may be under the dam ice then and there will be no way for you or your dam staff to contact/harass them then. In conclusion, I would like to bring to your attention a real environmental quality (health) problem in the area. It is the bears. Bears are actually defecating in our woods. I definitely believe you should be persecuting the defecating bears and leave the beavers alone. If you are going to investigate the beaver dam, watch your step! (The bears are not careful where they dump!) Being unable to comply with your dam request, and being unable to contact you on your dam answering machine, I am sending this response to your dam office via another government organization -- the dam USPS. Maybe, someday, it will get there. Sincerely, Stephen L. Tvedten ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 4 10:57:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06706 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:57:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15223; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:55:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:51:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14866 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:51:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14858 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:50:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:47:17 -0500 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF361840@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: FW: GBlist: Large Scale Green Building Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 10:45:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5160 > Dan, > > Thank you for your response to my post regarding creating a new list > focused on green building issues for large scale projects. Yours is the > first negative reply out of the 15 responses I have received offlist so I > thought it appropriate to address the issues you identified. > > Regarding your numbered points, I offer the following: > #1. Not enough traffic (about large scale projects)- I suggest that may be > due to factors such as: these people are not aware of the list, joined and > are lurkers(myself), or joined and then unsubscribed due to the lack of > pertinent messages. My idea is to develop an online community of those > people involved in the bigger projects so we can try to help each other > the way the people on this do. If there is not a lot of traffic right now, > is that necessarily a good reason not to start a new list? (Nadav Malin > indicated that the original GreenBuilding List started with only 40 > people). > > #2. Can learn from other people- I agree 100% and that is why I have been > a subscriber for the past year. There is a tremendous amount of knowledge > and information on this list. The flip side of this is that not everyone > is as interested in the subject matter as we are and they may not want to > spend the time sifting through the various posts. > > #3. Make a "small" idea "big"- I agree this is possible but many people > are looking for proven examples and situations that are very similar to > their own. > > In closing, what is the disadvantage of having 2 lists? If some people > want to subscribe to both is that a problem? > > Drew > > > ---------- > From: Dan and Pam[SMTP:dpharazim@cyberzone.net] > Reply To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net > Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 1998 10:35 PM > To: George, Drew > Cc: greenbuilding > Subject: Re: GBlist: Large Scale Green Building > > George, Drew wrote: > > > > Dear Listers, > > Bruce Sullivan and I were just discussing creating another Green > Building List that would focus on Green Building issues related to large > scale construction projects... > > > > I am interested in the group's thoughts on this idea. Are there other > > people out there who really enjoy this list but sometimes struggle to > find > > posts that help them figure out how to make large projects more > > sustainable? > > Would a separate list be of value or do you think it would be redundant? > > Drew, > Sorry for not responding sooner to this but I'm in the process of a move > - all other life processes seem to stop! Regarding a "large scale" > list, I would have to disagree. First, I don't think there's enough > email traffic to warrant another list. Second, I think that we all have > something to gain from info that isn't exactly applicable to our > immediate needs. And third (and most importantly), you mention that you > are "green building champion" at your company (our company has marketing > champions so I'm familiar with this new buzzword!). It seems to me that > you could have a great influence over "green" building practices that we > can all appreciate, make use of and cheer on. For example, one small > jobsite produces a small pile of debris; what are the economics of > jobsite recycling for several large jobs going on at once? Five gallons > of no-VOC paint is a "good thing"; what about a tractor-trailer load? I > work for a large A/E firm that does a considerable volume of > construction and has a some clout in the region - although the process > can be like trying to turn an ocean liner, small changes on large > projects can have great positive influences - small changes that started > out as "small" ideas on this "small" list. > In closing, I would again encourage working within the system that > already exists. I haven't been a member of this list for long, but I've > found that most of the concepts discussed can be as small or as large as > anyone wants to make them. > Regards, > Dan Harazim > Canterbury, CT > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 4 11:42:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07883 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:42:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18281; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:40:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:36:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17884 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:36:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17880 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:36:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA03382; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:36:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA20269; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:36:15 -0500 Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:36:15 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Henry Amos Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, "Ross M. Donald" Subject: Re: GBlist: Multi-storey housing In-Reply-To: <36672820.5E14BC3E@mcmail.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5161 Hello Henry, How "chilly" is it? I mean, why so: cold, wet, or cloudy? In New England (42 degrees North Latitude), I was past of a Community Development Corporation (CDC) doing a 17-apartment condominium project (3, 4, and 5 unit buildings - all 2 story), and a 165-unit brick townhouse planned development. It is/was, also, great fun to be with two coop style groups, one of which (mine), did seven units in three multi-family buildings. The other is still very much in the process, meeting regularly, probably at the same stage as your group: > ...trying to learn and create effective > strategies and actions. Anyway, what I'm now doing is translating my experience, in urban and suburban new design and remodeling the built environment, into a Green Agenda, that is, into architectual planning terms, that can serve the programmatic needs of the eventual habitants. (Yes, you must think about the living there.) > ...with information to convince a > client of any/all choices. Your choices are not infinite. Start with what's given. If you could describe the situation as you experience it. What's the weather like, for instance. (-a good place to start-) Your second question was about heating. Yours truly, Ross encl: On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Henry Amos wrote: > Here in the 'chilly' North of England, we are designing a range of 4-6 > storey blocks of 100 flats to a sustainable agenda. > > I have two tough questions to which any suggestions would be most > welcome. > > 1. Does anyone know of any examples of this type of development > (commercial wooden PANEL construction), with information to convince a > client of any/all choices. > > 2. Can anyone suggest a cunning heating system to use with cellulose > infill panel construction, which is not electric, as suggested by the > client due to the decreased loads (are small condensing gas boilers > ineffective due to high capital cost and possible redundancy?). > The development is speculative, so the perceived quality and perceived > individual quotas of energy cost per flat are important. ("I'm not > paying for the guy next door to have his window open"). The site is > fairly windy, and we have solar gain sufficient for passive gain, and > possible future active gain, and plenty of recyclable rain. > > > Thank you for your time, and I apologise if anyone has a difficulty with > this type of question: we are all trying to learn and create effective > strategies and actions. > > > Henry Amos > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > Please, add to the following to your mailing list, and send press releases, announcements, and notices of events to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 For edited news you can RE-use, send "subscribe er-list" for the "Environmental Review" and/or "subscribe solar_utilities" for info on Solar Utilities, to: . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 4 11:51:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08027 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:51:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19062; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:49:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:45:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18643 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:45:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18637 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:45:04 -0500 (EST) From: JamesAWise@aol.com Received: from JamesAWise@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 1OHa016640 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:43:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5fe2de8f.36681143@aol.com> Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:43:47 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: LEED, BREEAM, BEES, et al. Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 79 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id LAA18638 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5162 Dear Linda Lloyd and List Members, I think the post you're referring to is the one by Michael Iversen, reproduced below. If people on this list are interested in these various sorts of measures and models of 'green building' I urge them to peruse the recent two volume conference proceedings on "The Green Building Challenge '98" (Oct 26-28, Vancouver, CA). This is the best source of comparative studies and assessments of green buildings--using these and other analytical models-- currently available. Here in the NW, we are working to implement a Sustainable Building Plan that will incorporate analytical models that capture a wider set of the costs and benefits associated with 'sustainable' design and construction strategies. We will be looking at these and related models for their usefulness and adaption to our needs. We would be interested to hear from other groups who may be engaged in similar pursuits, or who have experience in applying such models to a regional level building plan. One thing I will note at this point: None of the models mentioned above incorporate assessment measures_above_the building scale level, and they concentrate on materials, building shell, building system, and site variables. (The USGBC is now developing a LEED Interiors version.) They do not appear to be suitable 'as is' for the scale of 'Sustainable Community' or neighborhood questions. Jim W. James A. Wise, Ph.D. CEO, Eco•Integrations, Inc. 2620 WillowBrook Ave. Richland, WA 99352 tel & fax: 509-627-5869 email: JamesAWise@aol.com ---------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:38:09 -0600 From: Michael Iversen Subject: Re: GBlist: Traditional Neighborhoods in Florida Cindy, The only way to evaluate whether a product, building or community is 'green' or sustainable is to decide what criteria are relevant and to measure and quantify the performance accordingly. The concern with so many products/buildings/communities that market themselves as sustainable is that they have not been measured against any standard performance criteria. For instance, here in the Chicago area, a residential development called Prairie Crossing markets itself as a sustainable community, but this term is irrelevant without measuring it's performance against standard criteria. It may incorporate many of the principles of New Urbanism, but residents still are required to drive miles for the nearest loaf of bread and most of their jobs. The resultant suburban sprawl and pollution emissions probably outweigh any of it's benefits in energy efficiency, etc. There are several evaluation programs currently available that one may use to gauge sustainability. LEEDS / Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design: green building assessment BREEAM / Building Research Establishment Environmental Assessment Methodology: green building assessment BEES / Building for Environmental and Economic Sustainability: green building product assessment If one factors in the true costs of suburban sprawl, land use, transportation (lost time and causalities) and pollution emissions, it would probably be difficult to justify (on a environmental basis) building new blank-slate communities in metropolitan areas where existing infrastructure, vacant buildings and vacant lots may be found nearby. Michael Iversen ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 4 13:20:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA10138 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:20:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26057; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:17:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:08:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24996 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:08:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24988 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:08:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.4.254.19] (uA3-p19.dreamscape.com [209.4.254.19]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA20329 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:08:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:08:01 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: uA3-p19.dreamscape.com [209.4.254.19] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 13:08:01 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <5fe2de8f.36681143@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: LEED, BREEAM, BEES, et al. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5163 Hi folks, Over the years I've done a fair amount of cost/benefit, life-cycle-cost and ecological impact analysis at building and community level. My own personal favorite is the 11 step list Alex and Nadav published in Sept/95 EBN. To be honest, I've always been nervous about tools that are more complex. Here are my main queasy-stomach-issues. In no particular order. I'd like to hear from others on these. where to start and where to end with life cycle - figuring out what's a cost, what's a benefit and what's an impact is tough (old growth, new growth, rain forest, engineered lumber, metals, petro-inputs, transportation, diversity, hydro-dams, recycled content, habitat loss, human rights, social justice, morbidity and mortality, extraction, manufacture, value added). I'll tell you one thing, it's not all accounted for in Ecoindicator95. it's all connected - I can't do just one thing I can't recall a "green" assessment tool or methodology which includes habitat loss as an impact pricing the non-priceable - put a price tag on the last pristine mountain stream and someone will buy it first, second and third laws of thermodynamics I can't recall a "green" assessment tool which includes population growth as an impact or population reduction as a benefit life on earth is highly non-linear, but it's hard for us to imagine non-linear, (e.g. the old 29th day tale, or if people trying to save a limited resource have a series of ten victories, saving 75% each time, will find themselves with 5% of the original resource). none of the economic assessment tools take into account Brennan's first law of economics "It's better for me to make $1 off a resource than for someone else to make $3". It's really a finger in the eye for free-market economics-as-a-regulator, turning the invisible hand into the invisible foot. (I believe that this really is the same as Garret Hardin's tragedy of the commons and Charles Wilson's statement, "What's good for General Motors is good for the United States") if you notice that some of my beliefs are inconsistent with each other, bear in mind I'm a man and perfectly capable of holding two contradictory beliefs at the same time. Hmmm, another important behavior not accounted for in life-cycle-cost analysis. - Terry Terry M. Brennan Camroden Associates 7240 East Carter Road Westmoreland, New York 13490 315-336-7955 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 4 16:53:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA14601 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:53:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09010; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:51:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:46:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA08423 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:46:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from sims-ha.videotron.net (faure.videotron.net [205.151.222.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08416 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:46:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from videotron.ca (ppp123.203.mmtl.videotron.net) by sims-ha.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34) with ESMTP id <0F3G00MOOMI4QE@sims-ha.videotron.net> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 16:32:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 15:44:43 -0500 From: Wade Eide Subject: Re: GBlist: Large Scale Green Building To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net Cc: "George, Drew" , greenbuilding Message-id: <366849BB.395CA725@videotron.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT X-Accept-Language: en References: <199811210501.AAA23121@solstice.crest.org> <3664B57E.3014@cyberzone.net> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5164 Dan and Pam wrote: > (...) > In closing, I would again encourage working within the system that > already exists. I haven't been a member of this list for long, but I've > found that most of the concepts discussed can be as small or as large as > anyone wants to make them. > Regards, > Dan Harazim I have to agree with Dan on this one. I've found the discussions on the GB list very stimulating and informative, and I, too, think that the concepts can be applied to small and large-scale projects. As to the specificities of large projects, I would like to see them discussed in this forum, for the benefit of us all, even though many may not often have the opportunity to work on such projects. -- Wade Eide, architect, Montréal Atelier BRAQ VéloVille ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 4 17:34:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15317 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:34:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA11722; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:32:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:28:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA11350 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:28:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from neptune.imagen.net (neptune.imagen.net [204.244.138.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA11346 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 17:28:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.244.138.114] (ss22.imagen.net [204.244.138.76]) by neptune.imagen.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2232.9) id YGPB4Z86; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:28:06 -0800 X-Sender: elizwhite@mail.imagen.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 14:24:39 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: elizwhite@saltspring.com (Elizabeth White) Subject: GBlist: mass & glass analysis Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5165 What do people suggest in the way of a quick and simple analysis tool suitable for glass selection in a very high mass house? Without the benefit of DOE2, I am about to recommend south glazing with a SHGC of .32 versus .46, and a corresponding U value of .16 versus .14, because I am concerned about overheating during the sunny (Victoria) summers, and sometimes sunny swing months. Therefore I am prepared to sacrifice some winter performance. Or am I? Intuitively, I don't think the extra gains will be a problem, but it would be nice to justify the decision. Any thoughts welcome. Elizabeth White __________________ Elizabeth White, Sustainable Housing Solutions 171 Vesuvius Bay Road, Saltspring Island, B.C. V8K 1K3 phone: (250) 537-2616 fax:(250) 537-2681 email: elizwhite@saltspring.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 4 18:52:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA16275 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:52:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15633; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:50:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:45:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA15145 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:45:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15131 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:45:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on4-21.netcom.ca [207.181.90.213]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19231; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:45:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981204183952.00a5d2e0@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 18:43:20 -0400 To: elizwhite@saltspring.com (Elizabeth White) From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: mass & glass analysis Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5166 Hi Elizabeth: Check out the Energy Design Tools page at UCLA: http://www.aud.ucla.edu/energy-design-tools/ Solar 5.5 might fit your needs. Best........Norbert At 02:24 PM 04/12/98 -0800, you wrote: >What do people suggest in the way of a quick and simple analysis tool >suitable for glass selection in a very high mass house? > ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 4 20:55:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA18307 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:55:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA20860; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:52:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:49:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA20558 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:48:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from clover.sover.net (root@old-clover.sover.net [204.71.16.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA20554 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:48:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by clover.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA22010; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:48:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from Alisa (usr0a2.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.2]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA02685; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:48:44 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net): on Fri, 4 Dec 1998 20:48:44 -0500 (EST) Alisa from usr0a2.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.2] 209.198.95.2 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981204204924.0073528c@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 04 Dec 1998 20:49:24 -0500 To: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: Greenbuilding and floors In-Reply-To: <5771782.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5167 >We are getting ready to lay pine floors in our new house. Having never >done this before, we have the following question: What is the best >material to use between a plywood subfloor and the long-leaf pine >flooring (tongue and groove)? We have been advised to use tarpaper by >various tradespeople. Do you have concerns about the possible toxicity >of tarpaper? Is there another material that you would recommend instead >of tarpaper? I have used rosin paper for this aplication. I recently heard, through casual conversation, that Rosin paper is impregnated with wax or parafin. Much less noxious than tar impregnated felt.Basicallt your plywood sub floor is your vapor barrier. The rosin paper is for mitgating squeaks. Danny Sagan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 4 21:07:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA18506 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 21:07:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21424; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 21:05:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 4 Dec 1998 21:01:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA21160 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 21:01:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA21156 for ; Fri, 4 Dec 1998 21:01:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.184] by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:08:23 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: mass & glass analysis Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 18:04:32 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1299327592-3480821@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5168 There are several commercial computer programs that will do this. We sell Energy-10 and REM/Design in the Iris Catalog . Both are excellent programs. Bruce S >What do people suggest in the way of a quick and simple analysis tool >suitable for glass selection in a very high mass house? > >Without the benefit of DOE2, I am about to recommend south glazing with a >SHGC of .32 versus .46, and a corresponding U value of .16 versus .14, >because I am concerned about overheating during the sunny (Victoria) >summers, and sometimes sunny swing months. Therefore I am prepared to >sacrifice some winter performance. Or am I? Intuitively, I don't think the >extra gains will be a problem, but it would be nice to justify the >decision. Any thoughts welcome. > >Elizabeth White ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 5 09:40:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23464 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:40:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08089; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:38:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:33:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07811 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:32:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07800 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:32:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA02829; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:32:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA14428; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:32:36 -0500 Date: Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:32:36 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Elizabeth White Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: mass & glass analysis In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5169 Dear Elizabeth White , Since you ask, I do have a few thoughts, if I may... But first, I need some help here. I'm sure I should know this, but what is > a > SHGC of .32 versus .46, (SHGC=Solar Heating Glazing Coefficient?) Is this a science and research project, or a design and building project? I ask this because, when we are speaking in terms of U-value, it seems to place the discussion in the former, rather than the latter arena. Also... > and a corresponding U value of .16 versus .14, Are not builders, architects, and product suppliers more likely to be thinking in terms of R-value? (R=1/U) Thanks. Yours truly, Ross encl: On Fri, 4 Dec 1998, Elizabeth White wrote: > What do people suggest in the way of a quick and simple analysis tool > suitable for glass selection in a very high mass house? > > Without the benefit of DOE2, I am about to recommend south glazing with a > SHGC of .32 versus .46, and a corresponding U value of .16 versus .14, > because I am concerned about overheating during the sunny (Victoria) > summers, and sometimes sunny swing months. Therefore I am prepared to > sacrifice some winter performance. Or am I? Intuitively, I don't think the > extra gains will be a problem, but it would be nice to justify the > decision. Any thoughts welcome. > > Elizabeth White > > > > __________________ > Elizabeth White, Sustainable Housing Solutions > 171 Vesuvius Bay Road, Saltspring Island, B.C. V8K 1K3 > phone: (250) 537-2616 fax:(250) 537-2681 > email: elizwhite@saltspring.com > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > Please, add the following to your mailing list, and send press releases, announcements, and notices of events to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 For edited news you can RE-use, send "subscribe er-list" for the "Environmental Review" and/or "subscribe solar_utilities" for info on Solar Utilities, to: . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 5 13:24:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25302 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 13:24:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15296; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 13:21:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 5 Dec 1998 13:17:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14923 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 13:17:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com (mail.planeta.com [206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14919 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 13:17:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com ([204.96.111.94] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000055707 for ; Sat, 05 Dec 1998 12:14:30 -0600 Date: Sat, 5 Dec 98 12:30:03 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: GBlist: More floors... To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5788651.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5170 Some friends of mine plan to put down a "floating" laminated wood floor over a slab to replace some old carpet. They're thinking about three brands: Pergo, Bruce, and Armstrong. Pergo has some sort of particle board as the majority of the material, and they've heard of instances where moisture has gotten in there and caused it to expand. So they're justifiably concerned. Pergo gives a 15-year warranty if you use all their materials (vapor barrier, etc). Another neighbor had a floor installed using Bruce, and although they had to do a heck of a lot of floor leveling, they're happy with the result so far (about 1 year). I think that it went in without any vapor barrier. I don't know anything about Armstrong's. Anyone have any experience or comments to share? Thanks! BC -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 5 17:00:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA27175 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 17:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA23672; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:58:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:52:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23384 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:52:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from sims-ha.videotron.net (faure.videotron.net [205.151.222.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23379 for ; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:52:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from videotron.ca (ppp161.245.mmtl.videotron.net) by sims-ha.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34) with ESMTP id <0F3I00DXJI3LRD@sims-ha.videotron.net> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 16:52:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 15:45:23 -0500 From: Wade Eide Subject: GBlist: [Fwd: [urban-ecology] Heat pumps] To: GreenBuilding , IAQ Message-id: <36699B63.32E0E150@videotron.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="Boundary_(ID_JqBxQbC45C34MccvaXJGuQ)" X-Accept-Language: en Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5171 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_JqBxQbC45C34MccvaXJGuQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT I'm forwarding this article from the Los Angeles Times, posted to the Urban-Ecology list by Richard Risemberg. Does anyone have any experience with the this heat-pump technology? -- Wade Eide, architect, Montréal Atelier BRAQ VéloVille --Boundary_(ID_JqBxQbC45C34MccvaXJGuQ) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Received: from findmail.com (mi.findmail.com) by sims-ha.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34) with SMTP id <0F3H00DLQYMPTH@sims-ha.videotron.net> for vlxwxhts@sims-ms-daemon; Sat, 5 Dec 1998 09:52:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 15415 invoked by uid 505); Sat, 05 Dec 1998 14:53:01 +0000 Received: (qmail 13286 invoked by uid 7770); Sat, 05 Dec 1998 14:51:50 +0000 Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (207.217.120.85) by vault.findmail.com with SMTP; Sat, 05 Dec 1998 14:51:50 +0000 Received: from thinkpad-310ed (pool048-max2.ds23-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.179.24.248]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA15797 for ; Sat, 05 Dec 1998 06:51:46 -0800 (PST) X-URL: http://www.egroups.com/list/urban-ecology/ Date: Sat, 05 Dec 1998 06:48:21 -0800 From: Richard Risemberg Subject: [urban-ecology] Heat pumps To: urban-ecology@egroups.com Reply-to: urban-ecology@egroups.com Message-id: <366947B5.244F@earthlink.net> Organization: Living Room: http://home.earthlink.net/~rickrise/ MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Precedence: list Delivered-to: listsaver-egroups-urban-ecology@egroups.com Mailing-List: contact urban-ecology-owner@egroups.com X-Mailing-List: urban-ecology@egroups.com X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
Her is an excerpt from an article on heat pumps--most of you have heard
of them, but I distribute it for the others, and because it has contact
info.  From the Los Angeles Times:
*****
Geothermal Heat Pump Cuts Utility Costs 
              By JAMES DULLEY, Special to The Times
A geothermal heat pump is an ideal year-round system for
almost any home. Basically, it draws "free" extra heating and
air-conditioning capacity from the ground. Over its life, such a pump
can save many thousands of dollars. 
For example, in the winter, for each $1 on your utility bills, you get
$4 worth of heat ($3 free from the Earth). These systems also
eliminate that "chilly" air feeling common to regular heat pumps in
the winter. 
If you have an old central air conditioner, installing the most
efficient
geothermal heat pump can reduce your cooling bills by two-thirds.
Even more important is the superior dehumidification (for allergy
sufferers) and steady cooling, even on the hottest summer
afternoons. 
Many geothermal heat pumps use a water / antifreeze-filled plastic
pipe loop buried in the yard. This earth loop is used instead of the
typical noisy outdoor condenser fan unit. This results in a quiet
system (all indoors) with less risk of damage and maintenance
problems. 
Geothermal heat pumps attain high efficiency because the ground
temperature stays fairly constant year-round. It is much easier in the
winter to "pump" heat from the warm ground at 50 degrees than
from the frigid outdoor air. 
In the summer, the situation is reversed. It is much easier to pump
heat from inside your house to the cooler 50-degree ground than to
the oven-like outdoor afternoon air. For an additional savings, this
wasted indoor heat can be diverted to your water heater for free
hot water all summer. 
There are many designs of geothermal heat pumps to choose from,
depending on your budget, yard and specific needs. The ground
pipes are normally buried in a very narrow trench. If your yard is
small, the pipes can be placed in vertical holes drilled deep into the
ground. Ponds or wells are also used. 
The best geothermal heat pumps (for year-round comfort and
savings) use multilevel heating and cooling outputs. These models
use either two small compressors or a single two-speed one. They
continually adjust the heating and cooling outputs to match the
varying comfort requirements of your house. 
Another, simplified but highly efficient, single-level design uses
direct
exchange (DX). Instead of using plastic pipes buried in your yard,
much shorter, tiny copper pipes are used. These are ideal for
smaller yards. 
Write for (or download, http://www.dulley.com) Update Bulletin
No. 793, a buyer's guide of 12 single and multilevel geothermal
heat pumps, efficiencies, outputs, features and a fuel cost
comparison chart. Please include $3 and a business-size
self-addressed envelope, and mail to James Dulley, Los Angeles
Times, 6906 Royalgreen Drive, Cincinnati, OH 45244. 
Letters and questions to James Dulley, a Cincinnati-based
engineering consultant, may be sent to James Dulley, Los Angeles
Times, 6906 Royalgreen Drive, Cincinnati, OH 45244. 

                      Copyright 1998 Los Angeles Times. All Rights
Reserved 
*****
I imagine the pipes could also be buried under the house, at least if
the system was installed during construction.

Richard
-- 
Richard Risemberg
rickrise@earthlink.net
Living Room: http://home.earthlink.net/~rickrise/
"There is more to life than increasing its speed."  (Gandhi)

Free Web-based e-mail groups -- www.eGroups.com --Boundary_(ID_JqBxQbC45C34MccvaXJGuQ)-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 6 00:32:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA01311 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 00:32:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA07037; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 00:29:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 6 Dec 1998 00:24:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA06742 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 00:24:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA06731 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 00:24:21 -0500 (EST) From: JNH2@aol.com Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id JPHLa22777 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 00:23:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 00:23:21 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: More floors... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5172 On laminated "wood" floor products... my mother just had WilsonArts version put in her house. The installer was willing to go with just about any mfr she wanted, she had been leaning toward Pergo. The installer told her that he had assembled some left-over pieces into a floor area on his exterior deck and so far, 2 full years, the only deterioration he found was some expansion/delamination at the exposed edges. Their version (WilsonArt) comes in roughly the same range of colors and installs with the same type of floating system everyone else is using. It could be that they are using some sort of rather toxic-type adhesive in their substrate. I have taken note each time I've visited and other than the first two/three weeks after installation, there was no noticeable odor at all. the initial odor was similar to that we normally expect from vinyl flooring, although not quite as strong. Hope this helps! Jim Holdcraft Saint Louis ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 6 05:44:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA03299 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 05:44:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA13357; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 05:42:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 6 Dec 1998 05:38:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA13120 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 05:38:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.cityweb.de (mail2.cityweb.de [193.189.224.210]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA13116 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 05:38:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from cityweb.de (ess8-m159-182.pool.cww.de [62.52.159.182]) by mail2.cityweb.de (8.9.1/8.9.1/powered by Telemedia) with ESMTP id LAA05593; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 11:38:40 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <366A5C18.4E1B5135@cityweb.de> Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 11:27:36 +0100 From: Vernon LeCount Reply-To: vernonlecount@cityweb.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: More floors... References: <5788651.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5173 The Bruce floating floor uses solid wood which might absorb less moisture than a laminate floor made with a composite wood. Three other manufacturers make floating floors: Boen Floors http://www.boen.com Harris-Tarkett http://www.woodflooring.com/harris.html Junckers http://www.carpeteria.com/junckers-installation.htm or http://www.taunton.com/fh/features/materials/woodfloor/page8.htm (The Taunton site above is the Fine Homebuilding Site) Here in Europe most of the floors are floating wood floors on concrete. They use some kind of foam material between the wood and concrete. Unfortunately most of the wood floors are composites (probably using toxic glues). These laminate products are hard to sand and refinish as the top layer is very thin. greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com wrote: > (snip) > Some friends of mine plan to put down a "floating" laminated wood floor over a > slab to replace some old carpet. > They're thinking about three brands: Pergo, Bruce, and Armstrong. > Anyone have any experience or comments to share? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 6 07:58:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA04033 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 07:58:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA15343; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 07:56:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 6 Dec 1998 07:52:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA15122 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 07:52:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA15118 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 07:52:35 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 3EUKa05320; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 07:51:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <68fdb02c.366a7de9@aol.com> Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 07:51:53 EST To: eide@videotron.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org, iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: [Fwd: [urban-ecology] Heat pumps] Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5174 Geothermal heat pumps are a fairly proven technology, and can work fine. Over the years, I've developed some reservations about heat pumps in general, because their efficiency depends strongly on all conditions being correct: Correct refrigerant charge, no air blockage, no heat exchanger blockage, no contaminants in the refrigerant system, compressor needs to not fail, etc. If one or more of these conditions is present, there can be a big loss of efficiency. I have found many failed heat pump systems running off their backup electric resistance heat, often at great cost to the owner. I have come to the conclusion that combustion systems are far more reliable. But I still use them on rare occasion when other heat sources are not available. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering, PC 108 South Albany St. Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX imshapiro@aol.com "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 6 18:26:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA09268 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:26:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05894; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:24:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:19:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05459 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:18:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.152]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05455 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:18:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mcmail.com ([195.44.198.86]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.117.11); Sun, 6 Dec 1998 23:16:42 +0000 Message-ID: <366B1030.A715594D@mcmail.com> Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 23:16:01 +0000 From: Henry Amos Organization: Amos and Einstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Renewable News Network CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, "Ross M. Donald" Subject: Re: GBlist: Multi-storey housing References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5175 Hello Ross, Thanks for responding: > The other is still very much in the process, meeting > regularly, probably at the same stage as your group We are working with a commercial developer who is trying new directions, and we are trying to facilitate as much as possible. These responses are to the question : How to design several 6 storey funky roofed high spec residential blocks within sustainable criteria? > How "chilly" is it? I mean, why so: cold, wet, or cloudy? > Your choices are not infinite. Start with what's given. If you could > describe the situation as you experience it. What's the weather like, for > instance. Latitude 55N , 6 miles inland, next to a river, often cloudy, often wet, often damp, very rarely torrential. Lovely when the sun shines. Average rainfall - 25-30 inches currently. Average Summer temp dry bulb 58 deg F, Winter temp - 40 deg F (Min -9 deg C ~16degF) - Wind prevailing from the West and SW, but cold winds from the NE. Av. 15-10 mph over 10% of the time for the local station - but this site is more exposed than that. "Heating climate", with some potential cooling when the calculations for heat gain combine with current ideas about southern elevations (major elevation orientation N and South). South elevation to be open to a variety of finishes. Required fast track development. Some prefabrication. Hence the timber panels based on timber frame technology - and the desire for examples of four (to six) storey similar buildings (found one in Australia) - we may use different construction on the lower floors. Hideously, and I mean hideously, tight real time timetable to allow calculation and site work to start. > Your second question was about heating. To find an elegant solution to multi occupancy flats/duplexes but which is not going to scare the developer with a maintenance nightmare centralized heating system -($) or (£)- or is it that scary? - I have already had positive responses to this idea of a centralised system from the list - do you know of examples which can be quoted and used as a reference. (This is a private client, so the scheme has to be commercially tested in principle.) Thank you for your time and energy. Henry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 6 18:31:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA09326 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:31:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA06326; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:29:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:25:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05982 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:25:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05978 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:25:27 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id ACUKa12607; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:24:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:24:43 EST To: Terry@dreamscape.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: LEED, BREEAM, BEES, et al. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5176 Friend, Once again Terry brings his wisdom in recognizing the complexity of the large questions we face, to answer the type of question that all to often is answered with simplistic formulas. I'd like to add a couple other criteria for finding the perfect formula for assessing the relative greenness of buildings. 1) It shouldn't have a cute acronym. 2) It shouldn't involve evaluations by third party inspectors. Specifically it shouldn't have inspections paid for at the whim of utilities, government and other monopolies and supplied by tax exempt theoretically charitable organizations that have for profit subsidiaries competing with legitimate businesses. (The current formula for certifying greenness in the Energy Crafted Home Program, The Energy Star Program and others.) 3) It should factor in what the customer desires by having a menu of solutions to choose from rather than a doctrine to conform to. 4) It shouldn't be considered green unless it can be built and sold profitably without subsidies. Ideally it should promote an evolution in the market place where green solutions are desirable benefits customers are eager to pay for. (Note the number of green building conferences, competitions etc., happening this year. Look who is sponsoring many of them. These changes are happening in the market place. It is working.) Right now, I am peripherally involved in a large project being subsidized for it's greenness. As a remodeler for most of my career, studying the impact of time, weather and occupants on buildings, I question the life span and practicality of some of the solutions being applied. Several friends and companies I work with have been involved in another of these large projects with questionable solutions. More lessons to me that as soon as other people's money is available, choices get distorted and impractical solutions applied. This is my interpretation of the lesson to be taken from Brennan's Law of Economics. (Terry, does this twist on your theory qualify me to sneak in as a secondary author on your submission to the Nobel committee?) There is something I really dislike about the whole prospect of evaluating and certifying relative greenness. Terry is right on the mark in suggesting it is too complex a question for simplistic formulas and programs. It is better for us to spend our own energy in creating inspiring solutions rather than measuring how other people are doing. Creating real solutions is also better than figuring out how to get subsidized because our ideas or efforts aren't accepted freely by the people we think should use them. Alex and Nadav, could you post your guidelines for us to review again? I'd like to decide for myself how I am doing based on the criteria of others whose work I respect. Thanks, Fred Unger ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 6 18:41:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA09395 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:41:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07078; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:39:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:35:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA06685 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:35:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac12.navix.net (iac12.navix.net [207.91.5.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06674 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.158.251.202 (cras33p23.navix.net [206.158.251.202]) by iac12.navix.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA04209; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 17:31:04 -0600 Message-ID: <366B08E6.23C4@navix.net> Date: Sun, 06 Dec 1998 16:44:56 -0600 From: Joyce Coppinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-Navix (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: SB Workshop in SE Nebraska BUILDING THE NATURAL WAY: A Green Building Workshop featuring Straw Bale Construction Demonstration and Sessions on Environmental Siting and Design Building with Indigenous and Salvaged Materials Natures Building Blocks: Straw Bale Saturday, December 12, 1998 8:30-9:00 AM Registration 9:00 AM NATURES BUILDING BLOCKS: STRAW BALE INTRODUCTION Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, Lincoln, Nebraska 10:30 AM BALE WALL CONSTRUCTION DEMONSTRATION Carl Schreiner, Design/Builder, Eagle, Nebraska 12:00 PM Lunch -- On Your Own 1:00 PM ENVIRONMENTAL SITING AND DESIGN Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, Lincoln, Nebraska 2:00 PM BUILDING WITH INDIGENOUS AND SALVAGED MATERIALS Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, Lincoln, Nebraska Carl Schreiner, Design/Builder, Eagle, Nebraska 3:00-4:00 PM OPEN FORUM A time for one-to-one interaction between Presenters and Participants Videotape Viewing Resource materials available for purchase Workshop Evaluation Forms NOTE: Participants responsible for own arrangements for overnight lodging and meals. The Workshop will be held at the Five Rivers RC&D Office, 140 North 4th Street, Tecumseh, Nebraska. Parking is available in the city lot adjacent to the RC&D office. To register and for more information, please call 1-800-910-3019 or 402.483.5135 or e-mail: jc10508@navix.net Advance registration is preferred, but you may also register and pay the fee at the workshop $50 fee for individuals -- $80 fee for couples (Ask about student or group rates) Mail check or money order to Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, 2110 South 33rd Street, Lincoln NE 68506-6001. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5177 BUILDING THE NATURAL WAY: A Green Building Workshop featuring Straw Bale Construction Demonstration and Sessions on Environmental Siting and Design Building with Indigenous and Salvaged Materials Nature’s Building Blocks: Straw Bale PLEASE NOTE THIS IS NOT A HANDS-ON WORKSHOP BUT WE WILL DO A DEMONSTRATION OF SB INFILL WALL BUILDING Saturday, December 12, 1998 8:30-9:00 AM Registration 9:00 AM NATURE’S BUILDING BLOCKS: STRAW BALE INTRODUCTION Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, Lincoln, Nebraska 10:30 AM BALE WALL CONSTRUCTION DEMONSTRATION Carl Schreiner, Design/Builder, Eagle, Nebraska 12:00 PM Lunch -- On Your Own 1:00 PM ENVIRONMENTAL SITING AND DESIGN Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, Lincoln, Nebraska 2:00 PM BUILDING WITH INDIGENOUS AND SALVAGED MATERIALS Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, Lincoln, Nebraska Carl Schreiner, Design/Builder, Eagle, Nebraska 3:00-4:00 PM OPEN FORUM A time for one-to-one interaction between Presenters and Participants Videotape Viewing Resource materials available for purchase Workshop Evaluation Forms NOTE: Participants responsible for own arrangements for overnight lodging and meals. The Workshop will be held at the Five Rivers RC&D Office, 140 North 4th Street, Tecumseh, Nebraska. Parking is available in the city lot adjacent to the RC&D office. To register and for more information, please call 1-800-910-3019 or 402.483.5135 or e-mail: jc10508@navix.net Advance registration is preferred, but you may also register and pay the fee at the workshop $50 fee for individuals -- $80 fee for couples (Ask about student or group rates) Mail check or money order to Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, 2110 South 33rd Street, Lincoln NE 68506-6001. BUILDING THE NATURAL WAY: A Green Building Workshop featuring Straw Bale Construction Demonstration and Sessions on Environmental Siting and Design Building with Indigenous and Salvaged Materials Nature’s Building Blocks: Straw Bale Saturday, December 12, 1998 8:30-9:00 AM Registration 9:00 AM NATURE’S BUILDING BLOCKS: STRAW BALE INTRODUCTION Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, Lincoln, Nebraska 10:30 AM BALE WALL CONSTRUCTION DEMONSTRATION Carl Schreiner, Design/Builder, Eagle, Nebraska 12:00 PM Lunch -- On Your Own 1:00 PM ENVIRONMENTAL SITING AND DESIGN Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, Lincoln, Nebraska 2:00 PM BUILDING WITH INDIGENOUS AND SALVAGED MATERIALS Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, Lincoln, Nebraska Carl Schreiner, Design/Builder, Eagle, Nebraska 3:00-4:00 PM OPEN FORUM A time for one-to-one interaction between Presenters and Participants Videotape Viewing Resource materials available for purchase Workshop Evaluation Forms NOTE: Participants responsible for own arrangements for overnight lodging and meals. The Workshop will be held at the Five Rivers RC&D Office, 140 North 4th Street, Tecumseh, Nebraska. Parking is available in the city lot adjacent to the RC&D office. To register and for more information, please call 1-800-910-3019 or 402.483.5135 or e-mail: jc10508@navix.net Advance registration is preferred, but you may also register and pay the fee at the workshop $50 fee for individuals -- $80 fee for couples (Ask about student or group rates) Mail check or money order to Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, 2110 South 33rd Street, Lincoln NE 68506-6001. BUILDING THE NATURAL WAY: A Green Building Workshop featuring Straw Bale Construction Demonstration and Sessions on Environmental Siting and Design Building with Indigenous and Salvaged Materials Nature’s Building Blocks: Straw Bale Saturday, December 12, 1998 8:30-9:00 AM Registration 9:00 AM NATURE’S BUILDING BLOCKS: STRAW BALE INTRODUCTION Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, Lincoln, Nebraska 10:30 AM BALE WALL CONSTRUCTION DEMONSTRATION Carl Schreiner, Design/Builder, Eagle, Nebraska 12:00 PM Lunch -- On Your Own 1:00 PM ENVIRONMENTAL SITING AND DESIGN Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, Lincoln, Nebraska 2:00 PM BUILDING WITH INDIGENOUS AND SALVAGED MATERIALS Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, Lincoln, Nebraska Carl Schreiner, Design/Builder, Eagle, Nebraska 3:00-4:00 PM OPEN FORUM A time for one-to-one interaction between Presenters and Participants Videotape Viewing Resource materials available for purchase Workshop Evaluation Forms NOTE: Participants responsible for own arrangements for overnight lodging and meals. The Workshop will be held at the Five Rivers RC&D Office, 140 North 4th Street, Tecumseh, Nebraska. Parking is available in the city lot adjacent to the RC&D office. To register and for more information, please call 1-800-910-3019 or 402.483.5135 or e-mail: jc10508@navix.net Advance registration is preferred, but you may also register and pay the fee at the workshop $50 fee for individuals -- $80 fee for couples (Ask about student or group rates) Mail check or money order to Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, 2110 South 33rd Street, Lincoln NE 68506-6001. BUILDING THE NATURAL WAY: A Green Building Workshop featuring Straw Bale Construction Demonstration and Sessions on Environmental Siting and Design Building with Indigenous and Salvaged Materials Nature’s Building Blocks: Straw Bale Saturday, December 12, 1998 8:30-9:00 AM Registration 9:00 AM NATURE’S BUILDING BLOCKS: STRAW BALE INTRODUCTION Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, Lincoln, Nebraska 10:30 AM BALE WALL CONSTRUCTION DEMONSTRATION Carl Schreiner, Design/Builder, Eagle, Nebraska 12:00 PM Lunch -- On Your Own 1:00 PM ENVIRONMENTAL SITING AND DESIGN Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, Lincoln, Nebraska 2:00 PM BUILDING WITH INDIGENOUS AND SALVAGED MATERIALS Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, Lincoln, Nebraska Carl Schreiner, Design/Builder, Eagle, Nebraska 3:00-4:00 PM OPEN FORUM A time for one-to-one interaction between Presenters and Participants Videotape Viewing Resource materials available for purchase Workshop Evaluation Forms NOTE: Participants responsible for own arrangements for overnight lodging and meals. The Workshop will be held at the Five Rivers RC&D Office, 140 North 4th Street, Tecumseh, Nebraska. Parking is available in the city lot adjacent to the RC&D office. To register and for more information, please call 1-800-910-3019 or 402.483.5135 or e-mail: jc10508@navix.net Advance registration is preferred, but you may also register and pay the fee at the workshop $50 fee for individuals -- $80 fee for couples (Ask about student or group rates) Mail check or money order to Joyce Coppinger, Re:Build Associates, 2110 South 33rd Street, Lincoln NE 68506-6001. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 6 21:35:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA11393 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:35:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15315; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:33:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:28:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14747 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:28:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from kalessin.southern.co.nz (kalessin.southern.co.nz [202.37.188.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14738 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:28:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (mail@localhost) by kalessin.southern.co.nz (8.8.5/8.6.6.Beta6) id PAA12964; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:27:10 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from ppp017.southern.co.nz(202.37.189.17) by kalessin.southern.co.nz via smap (V2.0) id xma012929; Mon, 7 Dec 98 15:26:49 +1300 X-Sender: bywateri@southern.co.nz Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:30:25 +1200 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: bywateri@convertech.co.nz (Ian Bywater) Subject: Re: GBlist: Multi-storey housing Cc: Henry Amos Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5178 Dear Henry In answer to your questions, my comments are:- >1. Does anyone know of any examples of this type of development >(commercial wooden PANEL construction), with information to convince a >client of any/all choices. Here in New Zealand we are very familiar with wood frame construction. Often the basement and first floor levels are constructed in concrete blocks. Polystyrene blocks concrete filled are now popular. I built my passive solar house with these last year. I would look at using a strawboard panel for improved insulation which you can get from a company called Compak Systems Ltd, BEAUMONT ST GAINSBOROUGH LINCOLNSHIRE DN21 2EG UK TEL: 01427-616927 FAX: 01427-810158 >2. Can anyone suggest a cunning heating system to use with cellulose >infill panel construction, which is not electric. A company here is currently using a heat pipe solar thermal panel which is normally used for hot water heating. These could also be used to provide some input to a water central storage heating system. Thermal meters are available so any occupant only pays for the quantity of heat drawn from the central system (user pays). However, radiant electric ceiling heating from some company like DEVI is efficient and very easily installed and controlled without any future maintenance. Just some thoughts, Ian Bywater Christchurch ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 6 21:44:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA11469 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:44:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15975; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:41:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:37:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15583 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:37:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [209.210.78.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15579 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from nistone (usr42.cwo.com [207.173.11.42]) by mail.cwo.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA09280 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:39:52 -0800 Message-ID: <004e01be218a$a093d940$2a0badcf@nistone> Reply-To: "Nehemiah I. Stone" From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #397 Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 18:38:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5179 SHGC = Solar Heat Gain Coefficient. It's different from the 'old' SC (Shading Cefficient), because (a) SC was a number that showed the transmittance relative to single pane glass and SHGC is absolute, i.e., relative to nothing there at all, and (b) SHGC includes the impact of the full window (inc. frame, sash and muntins) not just the center of the glass, as SC did. The higher the SAHGC, the more light is admitted. High SHGC is good where you are counting on solar gains to heat your home, bad where you have a high summer cooling load and no other way to block the solar gains. Conversely, in general, low SHGC numbers are good where summers are hot, electricity is expensive and you just can't seem to figure out overhangs and fins for shading. Nehemiah Stone ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 6 21:53:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA11529 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:53:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16548; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:51:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:47:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16202 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:46:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16198 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.67] (rkd043.acadia.net [208.244.128.67]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA20736 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:46:50 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 6 Dec 1998 21:45:50 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: LEED, BREEAM, BEES, et al. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5180 Thanks to both Terry and Fred for their thoughtful posts. In a very complex world, full of nonlinear feedback loops and delayed signals, deciding what is "green" can be very daunting. I think it's worth trying. Here's why: trying to articulate what is "green" means trying to articulate some of the characteristics of a sustainable human civilization. By articulating those characteristics, one defines goals. I believe that most actions are taken in pursuit of goals. I think that reorienting the goals of a system is the most powerful way to change it. Of course, that's pretty abstract, so I'm fond of looking for tangible "indicators" of how one is doing. That's why I like the "Personal CO2 Calculator" we discussed recently: it helps one evaluate one's own life and expresses one measure of that life - CO2 emissions - in terms of the number of trees needed to compensate. For me, that's relevant because my wife and I have been fortunate enough to live in a way that we could plant those trees. For someone else, another indicator would be more relevant. But an indicator is a good thing - if you're setting your life on a new course, it's really helpful to have some navigation instruments. (By the way, I'd like to apologize to Jorg if it sounded like I was belittling his observations about stucco as a CO2 sink. When someone has done as much as he has to lead a sustainable life, the next steps to take are far more advanced - such as calculating CO2 absorbtion from stucco - than for other folks.) Fred said: "It shouldn't be considered green unless it can be built and sold profitably without subsidies. Ideally it should promote an evolution in the market place where green solutions are desirable benefits customers are eager to pay for." Ideally, yes, but Fred, there's nothing wrong with subsidizing something that the market system is too stupid or unwieldly to provide. For us Americans, "subsidy" has become a dirty word, which is too bad, because it makes us overlook many legitimate uses of subsidy - national rail, national health care, education, etc., and overlook "invisible" subsidies such as accelerated depreciation for offshore oil drilling, military junkets in the Middle East to help keep oil cheap, limited liability and state-sponsored waste disposal for nuclear fission plants, highway subsidies that encourage sprawl, etc. But I had the sense that you're urging us to try out our ideas in the "real world" of market-driven pressures, consumer preference, business savvy, and hard physical work, rather than study the issue to death. "Too much analysis leads to paralysis" - is that your point? If so, it's a real good one. Thanks. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 7 08:21:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA18367 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA05488; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:18:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:15:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA05222 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:14:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA05217 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:14:48 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ111235; Mon, 7 Dec 98 06:14:47 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17578; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 06:13:54 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 06:13:53 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Trading CO2 emission credits by World Bank (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5181 I would like to know what people think of this. Is this worth writing a letter about? Jorg Ostrowski ________________________________________________________________________ From: On Behalf Of John Wolfenden Sent: November 23, 1998 4:35 PM Colleagues Following is a posting attributed to Daphne Wysham of the Sustainable Energy and Economy Network (http://www.seen.org) It raises some interesting questions of 'moral hazard' for the World Bank. There are billions of dollars in trading commissions at stake - is the World Bank really the appropriate institution to capture the rents from this? Further information, including rebuttal of related points by the Bank can be found at the SEEN website. John ===================== ANGER AS BANK TRIES TO RULE CARBON TRADE The World Bank plans to take control of the A360 billion international carbon trading market being set up under the Climate Change Convention, even before the 167 countries involved agree how it will be organised. Confidential documents leaked to the Guardian at the climate talks in Buenos Aires show that even the United States treasury is alarmed by the move. It sees a conflict of interest with the Bank's other role as a developer of fossil fuels, a role in which the bank has a bad reputation among environmental groups and in the developing world. The World Bank itself fears its move may carry the 'political risk of seeming to get ahead of the convention on emissions trading', but sees rich rewards from controlling a system by which Third World countries can sell their pollution allowance to developed countries in return for cleaner combustion technology. The Bank plans to charge 5 per cent commission on all deals. It estimates that the market will be worth A390 billion by 2020, giving a total commission income of A34.5 billion, of which 60 per cent will be 'profit above administration costs'. Rather than opt for expensive fossil-fuel reductions at home, companies can buy cheap carbon credits from developing countries, the Bank says. It believes that renewable energy sources like wind and solar power are too expensive, and suggests further investment in fossil fuels. This would involve Western countries building new coal-fired plants to replace inefficient ones in developing countries, and then claiming those countries' carbon credits because of the efficiency gained. The World Bank in its document calls it 'a win-win of collecting low-hanging fruit', but in English it means easy pickings. The leak coincides with a report published yesterday in which the Bank is strongly criticised for continuing to build fossil-fuel plants in the developing world. The US Institute for Policy Studies and the International Trade Information Service say this makes the Bank unsuitable for any role in the carbon market. The joint report says that since the Rio Earth Summit in 1992 the Bank has spent 25 times more on supporting fossil-fuel projects than on renewable sources of energy. In the past year it has voted almost A3800 million for four massive coal burners in China alone. The Bank claims that the new plants are needed to bring electricity to the 2 billion people in the world without it, and much needed economic development. In reality, the report says, almost all the investment goes to existing industrial areas, and large and often dirty industries from the developed world move in to take advantage of cheap power. Only 7 per cent of the power provides electricity to people who previously had none. Daphne Wysham, the author of the report, said: "It is appalling news that the bank plans to try and control carbon trading. It has a terrible track record of wrecking the climate by building coal stations in the developing world without proper environmental controls. Even the US government is alarmed." The US treasury document says the conflict arises from the Bank's role as a developer of fossil fuels, a promoter of greenhouse gas reduction, and now a carbon trader. The Bank has a credibility problem, having long supported fossil-fuels development... having failed to implement its own energy and environment policies,' it says. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Daphne Wysham ph: (202)234-9382, X208 Institute for Policy Studies fax: (202)387-7915 733-15th St., NW e: dwysham@igc.apc.org20 Suite 1020 Washington, DC 20005 http://www.seen.org ------------------------------------------------------------------ John Wolfenden Research Fellow New England Ecological Economics Group (NEEEG) Centre for Water Policy Research (CWPR) University of New England, Armidale, NSW, 2351, Australia Australia Ph (02) 6773 3995 Fx (02) 6773 3237 International +61 2 6773 3995 +61 2 6773 3237 Mobile 0412 245 234; email: jwolfend@metz.une.edu.au Committee Member and Postgraduate Coordinator, Australia New Zealand Society for Ecological Economics (ANZSEE) WEB INFORMATION My Homepage: http://metz.une.edu.au/~jwolfend/index.htm NEEEG Homepage: http://www.une.edu.au/cwpr/NEEEG/neeg.html CWPR Homepage: http://www.une.edu.au/cwpr/ ANZSEE Homepage: http://cres.anu.edu.au/~dstern/anzsee/ANZSEE.html [To unsubscribe from this list, email to: with the command UNSUBSCRIBE ANZSEELIST in the message body]. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 7 08:45:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA18638 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:45:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06659; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:38:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA06351 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:38:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06346 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:38:45 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ968451; Mon, 7 Dec 98 06:38:48 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA91552; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 06:37:53 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 06:37:53 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Ian Bywater Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, Henry Amos Subject: GBlist: BTU Meters In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5182 You said:"Thermal meters are available" _________________________________________ Ian: If your quote refers to the above, then I would like more info on the suppliers. I know Siemens sells them but they are very expensive. Jorg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 7 09:54:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA19630 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:54:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09700; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:51:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:48:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09378 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:47:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09373 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:47:54 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ437816; Mon, 7 Dec 98 07:47:48 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA18976; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 07:47:07 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 07:47:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Wade Eide Cc: GreenBuilding , IAQ Subject: GBlist: Re: [iaq] ARTICLE:[Fwd: [urban-ecology] Heat pumps] In-Reply-To: <36699B63.32E0E150@videotron.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5183 You said:"I imagine the pipes could also be buried under the house, at least if the system was installed during construction." _______________________________________________________________________ Richard: Further to your comment above, this technology is good from an IAQ and air pollution point of view, but you would have to insulate under the house (above the ground loop) in many locations in North America. I am currently looking for a very high COP (ie. 12) DC heat pump. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 7 10:02:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19752 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 10:02:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10350; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:59:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:56:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09889 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:56:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from multi13.netcomi.com (dkdalton@multi13.netcomi.com [204.58.155.213]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09883 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:56:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dkdalton@localhost) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id IAA05713; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:55:41 -0600 Received: from onelist.com (www.onelist.com [209.207.164.201]) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id IAA05707 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:55:39 -0600 Received: (qmail 1890 invoked by uid 99); 7 Dec 1998 15:01:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 26860 invoked from network); 7 Dec 1998 14:47:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca) (136.159.244.11) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 1998 14:47:48 -0000 received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ437816; Mon, 7 Dec 98 07:47:48 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA18976; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 07:47:07 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 07:47:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Old-To: Wade Eide Cc: GreenBuilding , IAQ In-Reply-To: <36699B63.32E0E150@videotron.ca> Message-Id: Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact iaq-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: GBlist: [iaq] Re: ARTICLE:[Fwd: [urban-ecology] Heat pumps] X-Loop: dkdalton@aztecenvironmental.com To: aztecfw@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5184 From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" You said:"I imagine the pipes could also be buried under the house, at least if the system was installed during construction." _______________________________________________________________________ Richard: Further to your comment above, this technology is good from an IAQ and air pollution point of view, but you would have to insulate under the house (above the ground loop) in many locations in North America. I am currently looking for a very high COP (ie. 12) DC heat pump. Jorg Ostrowski ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit http://www.onelist.com/advert.html for more information. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the week: "Chem-Tox.com" http://www.chem-tox.com/ Site contains an index which provides links to research finding health disorders resulting from exposure to common chemicals and pesticides. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 7 10:02:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19755 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 10:02:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10354; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:59:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:56:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09903 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from multi4.netcomi.com (rjbynum@multi4.netcomi.com [204.58.155.204]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09895 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 09:56:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from rjbynum@localhost) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id IAA16745; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:56:03 -0600 Received: from onelist.com (www.onelist.com [209.207.164.201]) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id IAA16738 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:56:00 -0600 Received: (qmail 1890 invoked by uid 99); 7 Dec 1998 15:01:45 -0000 Received: (qmail 26860 invoked from network); 7 Dec 1998 14:47:48 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca) (136.159.244.11) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 7 Dec 1998 14:47:48 -0000 received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ437816; Mon, 7 Dec 98 07:47:48 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA18976; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 07:47:07 -0700 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 07:47:07 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Old-To: Wade Eide Cc: GreenBuilding , IAQ In-Reply-To: <36699B63.32E0E150@videotron.ca> Message-Id: Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact iaq-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: GBlist: [iaq] Re: ARTICLE:[Fwd: [urban-ecology] Heat pumps] X-Loop: rbynum@usenergycontrols.com To: rjbynum@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5185 From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" You said:"I imagine the pipes could also be buried under the house, at least if the system was installed during construction." _______________________________________________________________________ Richard: Further to your comment above, this technology is good from an IAQ and air pollution point of view, but you would have to insulate under the house (above the ground loop) in many locations in North America. I am currently looking for a very high COP (ie. 12) DC heat pump. Jorg Ostrowski ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Help support ONElist, while generating interest in your product or service. ONElist has a variety of advertising packages. Visit http://www.onelist.com/advert.html for more information. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the week: "Chem-Tox.com" http://www.chem-tox.com/ Site contains an index which provides links to research finding health disorders resulting from exposure to common chemicals and pesticides. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 7 11:30:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA21398 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 11:30:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16804; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 11:28:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 7 Dec 1998 11:24:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16404 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 11:24:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.gorge.net (mail.gorge.net [205.162.195.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16399 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 11:24:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from gorge.net ([208.14.145.217]) by mail.gorge.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-54909U8000L800S0V35) with ESMTP id AAA193 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 08:18:41 -0800 Message-ID: <366C02FB.E29215FC@gorge.net> Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 08:32:00 -0800 From: Daniel Dancer Organization: ZeroCircles Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: 'green scale' Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5186 Greetings, I'm new to this list and found recent comments about coming up with a 'green scale' very interesting. One thing should be considered in sensitive areas that have potential to perhaps be purchased and protected in public ownership. As hard as it may be to swallow-- a mobile or manufactured home could be considered "most green" because unlike most all custom homes, it can easily be removed from the landscape and nature be allowed torecover. A question: on the 'green scale' with 10 being 'green as native grass'and 1 being 'terribly toxic' --where does concrete stand in terms of the environmental impacts of producing cement? I'm just beginning a model enviornmental home and I have not been able to find an answer to this question. Also....Who makes the greenest IFC blocks, using recycled materials perhaps? Many Thanks and I will enjoy being on this wonderful list. Regards, Daniel Dancer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 7 13:57:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA24720 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:57:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26386; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:55:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:50:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25975 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:50:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25971 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:50:30 -0500 (EST) From: JNH2@aol.com Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 5IRVa07118 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:49:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5bd9f116.366c2336@aol.com> Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 13:49:26 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: 'green scale' Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5187 You wrote: >As hard as it may be to swallow-- a mobile or manufactured home could be considered "most green" because unlike most all custom homes, it can easily be removed from the landscape and nature be allowed to recover.< It's been quite some time since I have seen this kind of attitude show up on the list. To rephrase, "It's "greener" to use up a bunch of resources and pour in a good measure of toxics for a disposalable building so that the LAND is better off, and pay no attention to where it is disposed or what other impacts may be". I apologize if the person who wrote the original had simply not thought through the process, but this attitude is so far from reality that it makes me sick. Human beings are part of nature and if "green building" means that we plan to chew up a big chunks of nature so that we can have a disposable building and "avoid damage to the pristine wilderness", then I for one would just as well be shut of the whole mess, rather than sit in some psuedo-green suburbian paper shack mausoleum watching pre-prepared pictures of the "true nature" In order for the system as a whole to survive and thrive, we must take into account all, or as many as possible, of the components of Nature. Dotting the landscape with disposable, toxic-laden, lousy dwellings that have massive throughputs of energy is the most foolish and simple-minded attitude we have to deal with. The suburban paper shack mausoleums are only marginally better. If you really want to look into a "green model home" then look at insulation values, tighter builidng envelopes, high-end appliances, and the myriad of small moves that add up to a realistic and sensitive stewardship with the gift we have of the earth. By the way, it is only individual human beings in familial groups that create "homes" the physical things we make on the landscape are known as HOUSES to everyone except real estate agents who desparately try to play on some strained sense of sentimentality. Now that I got that out, a "green scale" sounds interesting and incredibly dangerous at the same time. It is incredibly treacherous to try to tie up in a neat little package an overall understanding of least harm, sustainable human activities, at the individual product level. It certainly makes me glad that I'm just stuck in the trenchs working out details and pushing for a much durablitiy and sustainablity as each project budget can bear. Sorry to rant so much, but as one of the tag lines say "we haven't got time to rush..." Jim Holdcraft Saint Louis ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 7 15:30:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA26252 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:30:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA03633; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:27:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:23:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA03208 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:23:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA03204 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:23:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA15306; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:23:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA22254; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:23:28 -0500 Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:23:27 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: JNH2@aol.com, "Ross M. Donald" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: 'green scale' In-Reply-To: <5bd9f116.366c2336@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5188 Dear Jim Holdcraft, There are number of excellent points therein. I will be publishing Diane Dumanoski's article on "Re-thinking Environmentalism" in the Environmental Review. She addresses these matters very well, which I won't try to summarize. ...except to say, when people used to talk about throwing things away, we quickly learned there was no "away." And, now, when we want to save what's left over there, in the wilderness, we are learning that there is no there there, but for our survival here. (...something like that anyway...) Yours truly, Ross On Mon, 7 Dec 1998 JNH2@aol.com wrote: > You wrote: > >As hard as it may be to swallow-- a mobile or manufactured home could be > considered "most green" because unlike most all custom homes, it can easily be > removed from the landscape and nature be allowed to recover.< > > It's been quite some time since I have seen this kind of attitude show up on > the list. To rephrase, "It's "greener" to use up a bunch of resources and > pour in a good measure of toxics for a disposalable building so that the LAND > is better off, and pay no attention to where it is disposed or what other > impacts may be". > > I apologize if the person who wrote the original had simply not thought > through the process, but this attitude is so far from reality that it makes me > sick. Human beings are part of nature and if "green building" means that we > plan to chew up a big chunks of nature so that we can have a disposable > building and "avoid damage to the pristine wilderness", then I for one would > just as well be shut of the whole mess, rather than sit in some psuedo-green > suburbian paper shack mausoleum watching pre-prepared pictures of the "true > nature" > > In order for the system as a whole to survive and thrive, we must take into > account all, or as many as possible, of the components of Nature. Dotting the > landscape with disposable, toxic-laden, lousy dwellings that have massive > throughputs of energy is the most foolish and simple-minded attitude we have > to deal with. The suburban paper shack mausoleums are only marginally better. > > If you really want to look into a "green model home" then look at insulation > values, tighter builidng envelopes, high-end appliances, and the myriad of > small moves that add up to a realistic and sensitive stewardship with the gift > we have of the earth. > > By the way, it is only individual human beings in familial groups that create > "homes" the physical things we make on the landscape are known as HOUSES to > everyone except real estate agents who desparately try to play on some > strained sense of sentimentality. > > Now that I got that out, a "green scale" sounds interesting and incredibly > dangerous at the same time. It is incredibly treacherous to try to tie up in > a neat little package an overall understanding of least harm, sustainable > human activities, at the individual product level. It certainly makes me glad > that I'm just stuck in the trenchs working out details and pushing for a much > durablitiy and sustainablity as each project budget can bear. > > Sorry to rant so much, but as one of the tag lines say "we haven't got time to > rush..." > > Jim Holdcraft > Saint Louis > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > Please, add the following to your mailing list, and send press releases, announcements, and notices of events to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 For edited news you can RE-use, send "subscribe er-list" for the "Environmental Review" and/or "subscribe solar_utilities" for info on Solar Utilities, to: . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 7 18:18:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA00013 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:18:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17168; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:15:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:11:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA16722 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:11:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16718 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:11:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.79]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4007200 ; Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:11:24 -0800 Message-ID: <366C6018.889AA85@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 15:09:12 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: JNH2@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: 'green scale' References: <5bd9f116.366c2336@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5189 I thought the original comment here interesting as someone has opened their thinking to the complexity of issues involved in appropriate development, many of which can be quite contradictory within a larger view. I am very disappointed by the amount of abuse and lack of thought and consideration in the reply quoted below. It may seem inconceivable but a manufactured home parked on a landscape may very well involve less 'massive throughputs of energy' both to produce and maintain and may have significantly less impact, despite aesthetics and health concerns, and then it may not. These thoughts have been expressed on the list before and they are not 'wrong' or outside of any tacit agreements as to range of discussion. To me these thoughts lead naturally to a discussion of manufactured housing and also to models for housing that is tied less strenuously (and with less lasting effect) to the ground - good potential concepts. These may not be ideas that I have invested much personal interest in but I would learn something from the discussion. I have appreciated this list because it has (generally by example) taught me to put many of my assumptions aside. I feel rankled enough to say that being on the 'green' side of things does not always make ones shit any sweeter smelling, so lets be a little more conservative in how much we throw around. John JNH2@aol.com wrote: > You wrote: > >As hard as it may be to swallow-- a mobile or manufactured home could be > considered "most green" because unlike most all custom homes, it can easily be > removed from the landscape and nature be allowed to recover.< > > It's been quite some time since I have seen this kind of attitude show up on > the list. To rephrase, "It's "greener" to use up a bunch of resources and > pour in a good measure of toxics for a disposalable building so that the LAND > is better off, and pay no attention to where it is disposed or what other > impacts may be". > > I apologize if the person who wrote the original had simply not thought > through the process, but this attitude is so far from reality that it makes me > sick. Human beings are part of nature and if "green building" means that we > plan to chew up a big chunks of nature so that we can have a disposable > building and "avoid damage to the pristine wilderness", then I for one would > just as well be shut of the whole mess, rather than sit in some psuedo-green > suburbian paper shack mausoleum watching pre-prepared pictures of the "true > nature" > > In order for the system as a whole to survive and thrive, we must take into > account all, or as many as possible, of the components of Nature. Dotting the > landscape with disposable, toxic-laden, lousy dwellings that have massive > throughputs of energy is the most foolish and simple-minded attitude we have > to deal with. The suburban paper shack mausoleums are only marginally better. > > If you really want to look into a "green model home" then look at insulation > values, tighter builidng envelopes, high-end appliances, and the myriad of > small moves that add up to a realistic and sensitive stewardship with the gift > we have of the earth. > > By the way, it is only individual human beings in familial groups that create > "homes" the physical things we make on the landscape are known as HOUSES to > everyone except real estate agents who desparately try to play on some > strained sense of sentimentality. > > Now that I got that out, a "green scale" sounds interesting and incredibly > dangerous at the same time. It is incredibly treacherous to try to tie up in > a neat little package an overall understanding of least harm, sustainable > human activities, at the individual product level. It certainly makes me glad > that I'm just stuck in the trenchs working out details and pushing for a much > durablitiy and sustainablity as each project budget can bear. > > Sorry to rant so much, but as one of the tag lines say "we haven't got time to > rush..." > > Jim Holdcraft > Saint Louis > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 7 18:55:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA01234 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:55:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21146; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:53:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:48:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA20783 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:48:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20755 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:48:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5 [134.117.136.25]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id SAA18221; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:47:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id SAA23739; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:47:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:47:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199812072347.SAA23739@freenet5.carleton.ca> From: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re:LEED,BREEAM,BEES, et al. Reply-To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5190 on Sun, 6 Dec 1998 dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) wrote: [snipped & pasted] > ... trying to articulate what is "green" means trying to > articulate some of the characteristics of a sustainable human > civilization. > I'm fond of looking for tangible "indicators" of how one is > doing. That's why I like the "Personal CO2 Calculator" Hello David and ArticulatedHeads; In this (western) civilisation, I think that one's garbage pail is an excellent "tangible personal green indicator"... one that is automatically evaluated on a weekly basis by an impartial judge (your garbageman/woman). There are the pretenders who profess to have attained Green Virtue simply because they have sorted through their discards and placed their glass, plastic, metal, and fibre wastes in appropriate recycling bins (never mind the fact that their consumption patterns haven't changed and are still generating as much $#!+ as ever). These sinners are only deluding themselves and will surely be turned back at the Pearly Gates of Sustainable Heaven by Saint Fred come judgement day, no matter how many trees they plant. ( ie With the Personal CO2 Calculator, does one still get Green Points if they drive to the mall in a SUV to buy a tree grown at a nursery 300 miles away + a bag of peat moss harvested from an ecologically-sensitive bog + a bag of chemical fertiliser made by Chemistry-r-us Inc. ?) OTOH, there are the truly Vert-uous,... those who have reduced their consumption to the point that they are able to forgo the weekly pail pilgrimage of penance to the end of their lane, and through re-use of existing resources, divert materials from the waste stream so that they actually become negative waste generators. Yea, verily, surely it is these latter souls who will be blessed with wings on that Green Day when we are all called to account. This handy evaluation tool (the garbage pail) can be applied at any scale, from the individual all the way up to entire nations. It is an effective indicator of energy and resource intensity (and hence CO2 production too, eh ?), habitat destruction (okay, admittedly a wee bit of a stretch) etc etc.... but perhaps best of all, it is a tool that most people already possess and don't require a computer in order to access. -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 7 19:10:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA01597 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:10:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA22094; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:07:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:04:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA21784 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:04:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.gorge.net (mail.gorge.net [205.162.195.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA21780 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 19:04:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from gorge.net ([208.14.145.113]) by mail.gorge.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-54909U8000L800S0V35) with ESMTP id AAA52 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 15:58:20 -0800 Message-ID: <366C6EB5.E728EC42@gorge.net> Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 16:11:35 -0800 From: Daniel Dancer Organization: ZeroCircles Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: 'green scale' Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5191 Interesting contrast in response to the issue I brought up. I figured as much. Lets face it, as far as nature is concerned removing an existing home and rewilding the land is the ultimate in green. That's what I was getting at. A fine woman pointed this out to me a few years ago when I commented on the ugly trailer homes in my viewshed. She and her husband are wealthy enviros who have invested tons of their own money buying up property in the Columbia Gorge National Scenic Area and removing existing impacts before turning the land over to a Land Trust for protection. I'm an aesthetic type like a great many on this list I'm sure and find manufactured homes obnoxious but could not fault her point one bit. In a day you can put the land back to 'natural' and plant native seeds over the spot where the "home" once stood. How different than trying to remove an upscale 'green' home. It's definitely something worth thinking about when we start invading natures frontiers. Daniel ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 7 21:26:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA04012 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:26:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA03770; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:23:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:18:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA03254 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:18:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03242 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:18:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.66] (rkd042.acadia.net [208.244.128.66]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA26293 for ; Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:18:25 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 21:17:24 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: re:LEED,BREEAM,BEES, et al. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5192 Robert Tom wrote: >In this (western) civilisation, I think that one's garbage pail is >an excellent "tangible personal green indicator"... one that is >automatically evaluated on a weekly basis by an impartial judge >(your garbageman/woman). Hey Robert, great suggestion! Gets right to the heart of the matter. You also wrote: > ( ie With the Personal CO2 Calculator, does one still get > Green Points if they drive to the mall in a SUV to buy a tree > grown at a nursery 300 miles away + a bag of peat moss > harvested from an ecologically-sensitive bog + a bag of > chemical fertiliser made by Chemistry-r-us Inc. ?) > No you don't, because you have to put the trip to the mall in the debit column. Your points about peat moss and chemical fertilizer are well put. By the way, the personal CO@ calculator includes the amount of waste you discard or recycle in determining the number of trees you need to plant. But wow, the garbage pail is a great indicator! Reminds me of a story from the Netherlands: there were some number (say 300) of identical townhouses, except that half had the water, gas and electric meters in the basement and half had the meters in the entry hallway, where you'd see them every day. The townhouses with meters in the hallways had significantly lower consumption. Stands to reason, eh? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 8 05:01:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA10407 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:01:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA21312; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 04:58:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Dec 1998 04:54:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA21002 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 04:54:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA20998 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 04:54:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-91-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.91]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA05541; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 04:54:47 -0500 Message-ID: <366CF761.3AC0906E@together.net> Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 04:54:42 -0500 From: Thomas Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: STEPHEN OFFUTT CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, eide@videotron.ca Subject: Re: GBlist: [Fwd: [urban-ecology] Heat pumps] -Reply References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5193 Geothermal heat pumps have some distinct disadvantages that should not be glossed over in the excitement of this type of system. In my region, northern New England, I have yet to find water source heat pumps a viable investment, compared to other HVAC systems for schools or office buildings. In Northern Vermont, a water source heat pump system (non Geo.) will cost the owner 50% more to operate per year than other HVAC systems, and require 33% more peak electric demand. (results of my studies and studies by local electric utilities). Conventional non-geo water source heat pumps with evaporative condenser will cost about US $1.00 less to install per square foot than more efficient alternative systems. And when one considers the resource energy input efficiency, typically about +/- 35% for an electric generating plant, the appeal diminishes. For Geo., one must install more expensive extended range units.... and take into account the Geo. pumping energy. The only real benefit going Geo. is a cooler condensing medium in Summer cooling loads. It is more efficient to use a closed circuit evaporative cooler equipped with prop fan and variable speed fan control. Simply oversizing the cooling tower to enhance total system efficiency offers a far better return on investment. The electric utilities love heat pumps because they sell lots and lots of kilowatt hours. But the biggest drawback will be the maintenance costs 12 years or less down the road, when compressors start to fail. There are a lot of complaints about maintenance costs from local users who installed the systems years ago. Acquiring real maintenance data from proponents is elusive. With schools in particular, where HVAC system maintenance ranges from minimal to none, I worry about the long term. My point is they are this decades "in" system, due in part to the promotions of the Geo. heat pump consortium. No question they are the right choice for certain applications. They may be more suitable for climates with a heavier, dominant cooling load. Tom Anderson STEPHEN OFFUTT wrote: > Wade and list readers: > > Geothermal heat pumps (GHPs or GeoExchange) are being shown to be particularly good investments in school applications, in some cases coming in as lowest first cost AND lowest operating cost. There are well over 500 schools and a total of probably 300,000 to 400,000 total systems installed in the U.S., including a closed-loop system at Stockton College, NJ that is about1600 tons and an open-loop system at the Holt House in Louisville, KY that is over 4000 tons. They have been installed in affordable housing projects, military housing, and giant luxury homes. > > Because GHPs are charged and sealed at the factory, are located all indoors away from weather, and operate under more constant conditions than air-source heat pumps, they are far less prone to the problems that Ian mentioned in his post. > > I think some people have proposed installing vertical loops below the house, but I don't believe horizontal loops would be recommended. > > To learn all you would ever want to know about this technology and read a boatload of case studies, visit the Geothermal Heat Pump Consortium's web page at: > www.geoexchange.org > > Steve Offutt > > ============= > Contact Information: > Steve Offutt - ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA > 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) > offutt.stephen@epa.gov > ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES > www.epa.gov/energystar.html > ============= > > >>> Wade Eide 12/05/98 03:45pm >>> > I'm forwarding this article from the Los Angeles Times, posted to the > Urban-Ecology list by Richard Risemberg. Does anyone have any experience > with the this heat-pump technology? > > -- > Wade Eide, architect, Montréal > Atelier BRAQ > VéloVille > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 8 08:07:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA12284 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:07:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26584; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:05:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:01:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26154 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:01:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26131; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:00:59 -0500 (EST) received: from acs4.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.204) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ097829; Tue, 8 Dec 98 05:59:41 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs4.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA147156; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:58:51 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 05:58:50 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs4.acs.ucalgary.ca To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Energy Efficiency Listserver , Greenspiration Odyssey Subject: GBlist: retrofits or another fossil fuel power plant? Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5194 Anyone with worthy precedents where energy-efficient retrofits delayed the construction of a new power plants, please let us know. Hood River Oregon and Bonneyville Power is one example that I think is a worthwhile example, with the difference being, in that case the electrical load was bigger due to domestic hot water heating rather than gas in the Edmonton case. Has any utility been required to do a full "environmental assessment" before being allowed to proceed? Any useful information is welcomed. Jorg Ostrowski ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 23:59:25 -0700 From: Greenspiration Odyssey Subject: Fast Evolving Another Electric Utility... Hi Folks: We're still in Edmonton, dreaming of our cross Canada Greenspiration voyage which we'll begin in April. One year ago we were just arriving in Kyoto for the Climate Summit. The message was clear from that meeting: we must find ways to limit, and cut back, on our use of fossil fuels. A few months later we found ourselves in Hong Kong, helping to catalyse action to stop Hongkong Electric Company from expanding their Lamma Island power plant, and invest in efficiency and renewables instead. From those efforts a new group was formed called Act Now! and the Powerful Coalition was also spawned from those efforts. They continue to do excellent work. Now we find ourselves in Edmonton, and the city owned utility Edmonton Power has the gall to propose expanding a power plant, and spending C$90 million to get 170 megawatts of electricity. Guess what we're busy doing! Yes, we're at it again. At Edmonton City Hall on Wednesday night, Dec. 9 we are organizing a public forum on the topic: The $90 Million Dollar Question. Should the money be spent on burning more fossil fuels, or on energy efficiency and renewable sources of energy? If you have any thoughts for us, leads on good examples, etc. please drop us a line. We can use your help! Thanks in advance, -tooker >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In April, 1999 The Greenspiration Odyssey pedals Cross-Canada: from coast to coast to coast. Do you know of a story we should investigate? * Drop us a line at: greenspi@web.net * Visit our homepage at: http://www.greenspiration.org/ And please do let us know if you would like to receive regular postings of our ecological odyssey. Shalom. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 8 08:48:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA12638 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:48:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA28308; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:45:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:41:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA28003 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:41:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA27997 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:41:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.100.129]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA5002 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:44:54 +0000 Message-ID: <366D2BB8.737A6257@which.net> Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:38:00 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: retrofits or another fossil fuel power plant? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5195 I don't have references but I have read that issue of compact flourescents has delayed new generating plants in the US. I estimate at wholesale prices of about $6/lamp, $30-$40M of CFs would save that 170MW. Someone might want to check my math. Malcolm Scott Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Anyone with worthy precedents where energy-efficient retrofits > delayed > the construction of a new power plants, please let us know. Hood River > > Oregon and Bonneyville Power is one example that I think is a > worthwhile > example, with the difference being, in that case the electrical load > was > bigger due to domestic hot water heating rather than gas in the > Edmonton > case. Has any utility been required to do a full "environmental > assessment" > before being allowed to proceed? Any useful information is welcomed. > Jorg Ostrowski > ---------- > Now we find ourselves in Edmonton, and the city owned utility Edmonton > > Power has the gall to propose expanding a power plant, and spending > C$90 > million to get 170 megawatts of electricity. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 8 09:12:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13480 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:12:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29703; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:10:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:06:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA29241 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:06:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA29229; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 09:06:11 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ153863; Tue, 8 Dec 98 07:05:40 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA121370; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:04:57 -0700 Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 07:04:56 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: "David M. Foley" Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver Subject: GBlist: mini garbage cans & reference for visible energy meters In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5196 David: To respond to your challenge as noted below, how about using the "Mini Bins" which are 6" high and 5" diameter. We use one for garbage, one for compost and one for batteries. We have never used city garbage pick-up since we moved into our home/office. We try to keep a record of all garbage generated in our Mini Bins. I know that they are used by IBM Canada, Bank of Nova Scotia and other major corporations.I do not know if they are made from recycled plastic. You could even use a recylced container for the same purpose (except for a tight lid). You can then use one of their compostable liners in there to help the environment further, or you can reuse your small clear plastic bag from the organic food store. Does anyone have a reference to the Dutch study on bringing energy meters out of the basement into the front lobby for major energy reductions? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________ On Mon, 7 Dec 1998, David M. Foley wrote: > Robert Tom wrote: > > >In this (western) civilisation, I think that one's garbage pail is > >an excellent "tangible personal green indicator"... one that is > >automatically evaluated on a weekly basis by an impartial judge > >(your garbageman/woman). > > Hey Robert, great suggestion! Gets right to the heart of the matter. > > But wow, the garbage pail is a great indicator! > > Reminds me of a story from the Netherlands: there were some number (say > 300) of identical townhouses, except that half had the water, gas and > electric meters in the basement and half had the meters in the entry > hallway, where you'd see them every day. The townhouses with meters in the > hallways had significantly lower consumption. Stands to reason, eh? > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 8 10:43:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15210 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:43:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05441; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:40:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:36:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04642 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:36:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04638 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:36:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DVX4ZG8F; Tue, 08 Dec 1998 10:36:16 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:41:02 -0800 Message-ID: <19981208.104103.9310.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-6,11-15 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5197 Dear Jim Holdcraft, While I agree with your sentiments on trailers and other non-greenbuildings, I do think you could have been a bit more tactful in expressing your sentiments. The person you replied to was a newcomer to the list and probably not as experienced in the issues as you. It is precisely this rhetoric andattitude of non-tolerance and superiority that discourages those who are not hard core environmental experts from expressing their opinions. This is still a free country and one of the purposes of this list is to help each other and educate those less informed in our various areas of expertise. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 8 13:39:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18476 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:39:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17837; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:37:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:31:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17361 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:31:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17356 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:31:22 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id TDHHa12618 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:20:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <659d2b13.366d6df1@aol.com> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:20:33 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: SIPS, Agriboard and R values Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5198 the 11/97 Fine Homebuilding Tools and Materials article says that the 7 7/8" thick agriboard panel has an R value of 39.6 -- yet the Agriboard web site says 23 ------ the Insulspan SIP site says their 9 3/8" panel has a R factor of R38 ----- which comes up to an EPS value of 4 per inch ----- I am confused -- also I thought the insulation boards were 5+ per inch, and some up to 7 can someone unconfuse me please ?? THANX Linda LLoyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 8 15:07:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA20291 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:07:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23410; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:04:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:59:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22799 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:58:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from snail.ecs.umass.edu (snail.ecs.umass.edu [128.119.91.94]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22783 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:58:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from kira.ecs.umass.edu (dialup-12.ecs.umass.edu [128.119.86.162]) by snail.ecs.umass.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07650 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 14:58:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <366D85AF.B941622C@ecs.umass.edu> Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 15:01:52 -0500 From: Ian Roth Organization: Center for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding List Subject: GBlist: Sust Bldg Careers X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5199 I am looking for some advice regarding starting a career in sustainable building design. I will receive my M.S. in mechanical engineering in January from the University of Massachusetts in Amherst and I would like to pursue a career where I work cooperatively with architects and builders on designing sustainable buildings. Ideally this cooperation would involve overlap between the functions of the different professions. I am particularly interested in systems design (e.g. heating, cooling, water, waste) but see tremendous value and satisfaction in working cooperatively to achieve optimal building designs. In planning my career, I am trying to determine the best approach to realizing this goal at some point within the next 10 years or so. I understand it is somewhat difficult to "break into" this field and am interested in hearing some suggestions about different ways to do so. I am fortunate to have the opportunity to help start up a sustainable building design company and I would value some opinions on the pros and cons of this and of other options. Thanks! -- Ian Roth Graduate Research Assistant CEERE - Center for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy University of Massachusetts at Amherst http://www.ecs.umass.edu/mie/labs/ceere/index.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 8 15:11:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA20412 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:11:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23877; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:08:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:03:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA23293 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:03:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from garnet.sover.net (root@garnet.sover.net [209.198.87.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23286 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:03:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.9] (pm4a28.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.28]) by garnet.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA13176; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:02:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:02:22 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) [207.136.199.9] from pm4a28.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.28] 207.136.199.28 Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:02:22 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <659d2b13.366d6df1@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: GrenSheltr@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: SIPS, Agriboard and R values Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5200 Agriboard had been exaggerating their R-value, and that's what got into the Fine Homebuilding article--and many other places. EBN finally called them on their inaccurate reporting, and they came clean with their energy performance. Compressed straw, while a great product from an environmental standpoint, does not have a very high R-value per-inch. Expanded polystyrene insulates to about R-4.0 per inch, though there is some variation based on density, so the Insulspan numbers sound correct. _Extruded_ polystyrene insulates to about R-5 per inch, and polyisocyanurate insulates to between R-6 and R-7 per inch, considerably higher than EPS--but most of these materials are produced with ozone-depleting HCFCs. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News At 1:20 PM -0500 12/8/98, GrenSheltr@aol.com wrote: >the 11/97 Fine Homebuilding Tools and Materials article says that the 7 7/8" >thick agriboard panel has an R value of 39.6 -- yet the Agriboard web site >says 23 ------ > >the Insulspan SIP site says their 9 3/8" panel has a R factor of R38 ----- >which comes up to an EPS value of 4 per inch ----- > >I am confused -- also I thought the insulation boards were 5+ per inch, and >some up to 7 can someone unconfuse me please ?? THANX Linda LLoyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 8 15:48:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA21367 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26899; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:46:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:42:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26546 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:42:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26541 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:42:35 -0500 (EST) From: JNH2@aol.com Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id FUBMa07663 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:31:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 15:31:09 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: SIPS, Agriboard and R values Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5201 Linda, As for Agriboard, I'm not familiar with that particular product. What you may be seeing is the "aged" value versus the "new" value. I believe this is based on the notion that foamed or blown insulation products lose some of the blowing agent over time and as a result some amount of their rated value. EPS being rated at 5+ per inch is a bit high, but not all that unusual. A friend of mine is planning on using one of the insulated concrete form products and I checked not only the company website but also the industry (EPS) trade organization site. R5+ per inch is obtainable at a higher than normal density of polystyrene. I'm sorry but the precise density and even the references to the web sites escapes me at the moment, I may have lost my bookmark file! If you are going for high end R values, look into XPS (extruded poystyrene) or Polyisocyanurate board. XPS is (supposedly) closed cell so it won't (?) absorb any moisture and reduce it R value. Polyiso board is more expensive but also higher R per inch, something around 8. The advantage of Polyiso borad is that it is class A fire rated, while all the polystyrene products burn, and burn in a rather dripping and spitting type of manner. Good luck, Jim Holdcraft Saint Louis ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 8 17:06:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA23261 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:06:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03076; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:03:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:00:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02678 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02673 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:59:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mcmail.com ([195.44.195.115]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.117.11); Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:56:28 +0000 Message-ID: <366DA19B.6B126F5@mcmail.com> Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 22:00:59 +0000 From: Henry Amos Organization: Amos and Einstein X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding discussion group Subject: GBlist: Materials Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5202 Hi, Does anyone know the 'practical' (cost) predicited extinction dates with current usage, for common building materials? Copper, aluminium, etc. as I have old hearsay only. Thanks, Henry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 8 17:29:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24188 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:29:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA04652; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:26:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:23:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04282 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:23:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04271 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:22:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.3.220.12]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 0088700 ; Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:26:35 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981208171740.006a0dd8@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:17:40 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: Heat pumps In-Reply-To: <199812070700.CAA26087@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5203 >Over the years, I've developed some reservations about heat pumps in general, >because their efficiency depends strongly on all conditions being correct: >Correct refrigerant charge, no air blockage, no heat exchanger blockage, no >contaminants in the refrigerant system, compressor needs to not fail, etc. If >one or more of these conditions is present, there can be a big loss of >efficiency. I have found many failed >heat pump systems running off their backup electric resistance heat, often at >great cost to the owner. I have come to the conclusion that combustion >systems are far more reliable. > Ian, I share your concern regarding heat pumps in general. Many homeowners with heat pumps also complaint bitterly about the drafty feeling becasue heat pumps produce room temperature air. When considering HVAC environmental impacts it is also important to consider overall system efficiency. When you take into account that the process of producing electricity arriving at your building is about 25%^ to 30% efficient then the "efficiency" of a heat pump is not nearly as impressive. Also in my little corner of the world electricity is two to ten times more expensive than natural gas. It takes a lot of efficiency to over come the cost difference. The environmental impacts also will vary depending upon how your electricity is produced. In Pennsylvania about 60% of the electricity is produced from buring coal, another 30% or so from nukes. This last point is extremely important and often seems to be overlooked and overshadowed by the impressive sounding efficiencies with ground source heat pumps. Site energy may be less, but take into account source energy and heat pumps of any kind don't stack up. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 8 17:52:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24486 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:52:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06023; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:50:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:46:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05612 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:46:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc532.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.157]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05606 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:46:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from AE-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:48:33 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 17:48:11 -0500 From: "Arnie Katz" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, iroth@ecs.umass.edu Subject: Re: GBlist: Sust Bldg Careers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id RAA05608 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5204 Ian: If you haven't already done so, I hightly recommend spending a couple of years working in one or more of the construction trades before setting off to design buildings. arnie ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 8 20:47:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA26730 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:47:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA17253; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:44:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:39:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15731 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:38:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 20:38:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199812090138.UAA15731@solstice.crest.org> From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "George, Drew" CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Large Scale Green Building References: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF361836@WASNT1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5205 >George, Drew wrote: >> >> Dan, >> >> ....In closing, what is the disadvantage of having 2 lists? If some people want >> to subscribe to both is that a problem or a waste of resources? >> >> Drew > Drew, Supposedly this got bumped a few days ago so I'm resending... I'll make one final note on this issue and then give it a rest! Playing >the devil's advocate, I have to ask, "What is the ADVANTAGE of having 2 >lists?" It's like building more power plants or roads to meet peak >demand when in reality there's usually plenty of capacity, only a matter >of scheduling and distribution. I feel like I'm drowning in information >and contacts and things that eat time, so in self-defense I'm becoming >much more hard-nosed about it! I can't believe that 3 years ago my >office didn't even have internal email and now I could spend an hour a >day dealing with this "indispensible" stuff! I continually find myself >asking the question, "Am I somehow better off for this?" Rather than a >unifying force, it sometimes seems that the Web is simply a vehicle for >every single group or idea to splinter off into its own special-interest >area. I would again encourage you to reconsider a second list and I >won't burden everyone on this topic again! >Regards, >Dan Harazim ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 8 21:59:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA27783 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:59:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA27849; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:56:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:51:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA26904 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:51:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA26900 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:50:59 -0500 (EST) From: SAMALEK@aol.com Received: from SAMALEK@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id CWJLa07114 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:41:46 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:41:46 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Los Altos Schools Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5206 The voters of the City of Los Altos approved a $90+ Million Bond Measure to renovate and add to 9 elementary and junior high schools in this District. I would like to recommend to the School District a list of architects and consultants that practice "green / environmentally sound" design. This is an opportunity to impact an affluent community in a positive way. I would appreciate a list from you of a variety of consultants that wish to be interviewed for this work. Safwat Malek, Architect Member of the Long Range Facilities Planning Committee samalek@aol.com Ph: 650/9410503 Fax: 650/948-5228 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 02:37:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA01760 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 02:37:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA18003; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 02:34:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 02:30:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA17731 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 02:30:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from neptune.imagen.net (neptune.imagen.net [204.244.138.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA17727 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 02:30:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.244.138.73] (ss19.imagen.net [204.244.138.73]) by neptune.imagen.net with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2232.9) id YGPBV8GA; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 23:30:13 -0800 X-Sender: elizwhite@mail.imagen.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 23:26:45 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: elizwhite@saltspring.com (Elizabeth White) Subject: GBlist: mass & glass analysis Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5207 Thank you Norbert and Bruce for the suggestions. Solar 5.5, free from http://www.aud.ucla.edu/energy-design-tools/ looks like it might work. How user friendly is it? (I have macs, so I have to get a conversion program before I can find out) and does anyone know its limitations? Question about REM/Design in the Iris Catalog From the description, REM/Design sounds like HOT2000, which I normally use but doesn't help with this problem. Does REM/Design handle overheating and high mass houses better than HOT2000? I was also hoping the engineering types on this list might come up with some really simple methods or rules of thumb relating to quantity of mass, overhead and vertical glazing and temperature swing. Apart from my current dilemma, it seems to me that the whole light-and-tight versus mass-and-glass discussion was rather abruptly terminated last time around and I for one would like to see it revisited. Achieving good passive solar performance (includes daylighting) is surely the starting point for any greenbuilding and the glazing options available now are powerful but also complicated. Elizabeth White __________________ Elizabeth White, Sustainable Housing Solutions 171 Vesuvius Bay Road, Saltspring Island, B.C. V8K 1K3 phone: (250) 537-2616 fax:(250) 537-2681 email: elizwhite@saltspring.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 07:02:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA05071 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 07:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA23865; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 06:59:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 06:55:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA23614 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 06:55:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA23609 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 06:55:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id GAA07367; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 06:55:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 06:55:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy2.vineyard.net(206.166.158.60) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma007350; Wed Dec 9 06:55:40 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, iroth@ecs.umass.edu From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: Sust Bldg Careers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5208 Ian - I second Arnie's sentiment. Build stuff. As much as you can. We just hired an architect who has been practicing for 10 years, working in large and small firms. He's an accomplished designer and a very thoughtful guy, but he's never built anything. When he starts here, he will be working for at least some months, at architects' pay, on our construction crews. We think it will be critical to his success in a design/build firm such as this. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 07:54:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA05403 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 07:54:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA25831; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 07:52:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 07:48:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA25387 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 07:48:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA25383 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 07:48:06 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id TMWPa23510 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 07:47:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <955d6e76.366e7165@aol.com> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 07:47:33 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Trees vs code Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5209 for the first time I will be building a new home in an area that actually requires full stamped plans and also has progress/code inspections (sure was easy building where they did no inspections ) - Albemarle Cty, Virginia --- would like to use trees from the site for the support posts and roof beams for this post and beam straw bale infill house but am thinking this will not be possible because of the code requirements and inspections ----- comments from anyone who has been through this ??? Linda Lloyd - The Quarries Ecovillage ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 09:48:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06810 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:48:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00873; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:46:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:42:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA00487 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00483 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:41:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA13718; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:41:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA01493; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:41:58 -0500 Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:41:58 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: GrenSheltr@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Trees vs code In-Reply-To: <955d6e76.366e7165@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5210 So, what's the prob. You know the species of tree and therefore the fiber strength and other numbers. You can visually inspect for knots and weak points. You can load one member til it breaks and you can over build, if needs be. ...but you're right: if will "not be possible" if you don't find a way to do it. Good luck. -Ross On Wed, 9 Dec 1998 GrenSheltr@aol.com wrote: > for the first time I will be building a new home in an area that actually > requires full stamped plans and also has progress/code inspections (sure was > easy building where they did no inspections ) - Albemarle Cty, Virginia --- > would like to use trees from the site for the support posts and roof beams for > this post and beam straw bale infill house but am thinking this will not be > possible because of the code requirements and inspections ----- comments > from anyone who has been through this ??? Linda Lloyd - The Quarries > Ecovillage > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 10:37:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07637 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:37:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04208; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:35:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:31:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03742 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:31:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03738 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:31:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DV2N4LYG; Wed, 09 Dec 1998 10:31:01 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:34:41 -0800 Subject: GBlist: experience Message-ID: <19981209.103539.9398.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-7,11-16 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5211 Ian, John et al., I heartily endorse the sentiment of getting experience before you go into architecture, interior design or any other related design field. Before becoming an interior designer I owned, managed and repaired a number of rental properties. The experience garnered there and in working on Habitat for Humanity homes was very valuable in space planning. By the way, volunteering for Habitat for Humanity is a good way both to get hands on experience and do something worthwhile for the community. This is especially true since Habitat has adopted some sustainable building materials. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 10:59:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08010 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:59:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05412; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:55:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:52:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05049 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:51:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (wfntnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.37.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05045 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:51:43 -0500 (EST) From: walshj@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 852566D5.0057193E ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:51:20 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <852566D5.00554EC9.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:51:20 -0500 Subject: GBlist: Re: Heat pumps Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5212 Harvey Sachs is in the process of re-subscribing to the list. In the meantime, please post. ---------------------- Forwarded by John T. Walsh/NUS on 12/09/98 10:31 AM --------------------------- SACHS@ghpc.org 12/09/98 10:26:03 AM To: John T. Walsh/NUS cc: OFFUTT.STEPHEN@epamail.epa.gov, LECUYER@ghpc.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Heat pumps John: since I am not sure that I am hooked up yet (at home, while I am at the office now, would you please post this? Thanks: ----------------- start --------------- To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: (bcc: John T. Walsh/NUS) Subject: GBlist: Re: Heat pumps Marcus Sheffer, Energy and Green Building Consulting Services, has commented on heat pumps in general and on ground source heat pumps. He raises some new issues, and I trust that a bit of elaboration will be helpful. As in my earlier post, I'll alternate quotes from him, labeled "MS:" with some comments, labeled "GHPC:" I hope this format makes it easy to follow the discussion * and to save time by ignoring what is not of interest to you. Thanks Harvey m sachs Technical director, geothermal heat pump consortium, MS: Over the years, I've developed some reservations about heat pumps in general, because their efficiency depends strongly on all conditions being correct: Correct refrigerant charge, no air blockage, no heat exchanger blockage, no contaminants in the refrigerant system, compressor needs to not fail, etc. If one or more of these conditions is present, there can be a big loss of efficiency. I have come to the conclusion that combustion systems are far more reliable. GHPC: The question of efficiency depending on correct installation and maintenance is true of all systems, not just GX (geothermal) or air-source. In residential systems, the major inefficiency is the awful work done on the air side * 30% total leakage rates are common, and 30% to the unconditioned space is not infrequent, according to work done in Florida, California, and elsewhere (as I recall the FSEC and Proctor numbers). This is generally not noticed in fossil systems in heating mode, because they are so often so incredibly oversized. In my own house (since sold), I could not get the HVAC contractor to install a unit smaller than 140,000 Btuh. The measured load on the coldest day (24 hr at average 0F, high wind) was 35,000 Btuh. GX systems cannot afford this oversizing, because of the incremental cost of the loop. I'd note for the record that almost all GX systems (as opposed to air-source hps) don't have separate outside and inside units, so there are no field refrigerant line installations. The system is precharged at the factory, generally with decent quality control, and will leak only if the 3-way valve or other component fails. However, there is a problem with almost all central air and heat pump systems, that output is sensitive to static pressure effects on velocity across the coil. This, just like dirt on the coil from poor filter maintenance, will impact efficiency. I know it is too much to expect homeowners to change filters, but that's life. MS: I have found many failed heat pump systems running off their backup electric resistance heat, often at great cost to the owner. GHPC: And too many systems with mismatched setback thermostats that guarantee that the resistance will come on in the morning* Frankly, I'm not a fan of air-source heat pumps in most areas, and this is just one reason. But let me note one important difference between air-source and GX units: When it gets real cold, the air-source heat pump's efficiency would be <1, so resistance is more efficient than the heat pump. So resistance heat replaces the heat pump. ARI-330 GX unit s are rated at 32F, and have high output at low temperatures, since a properly designed and installed ground loop won't get below about 30F. Where resistance is used, it is generally 4 KW, not 12, and designed to supplement (not replace) the heat pump for "peak shaving" on the installation: If the last 4 kW of load would require $1000 - $1500 increase in loop and equipment size, most contractors will recommend using a bit of resistance (typically 200 * 500 kWh/yr) to save on first cost. Your values, your choice. I believe that load is relatively diversified. Since it is much smaller than the load from air-source hps, it has much less system impact on the utility * which is one reason utilities, particularly rurals, have promoted GX. MS: Ian, I share your concern regarding heat pumps in general. Many homeowners with heat pumps also complaint bitterly about the drafty feeling because heat pumps produce room temperature air. GHPC: Air-source hps also can show cold-blow when the system needs to defrost the outside coil, which requires reversing the cycle to heat it. This does not happen with GX, which tends to have register temperatures >90F * often much greater. Again, if the return duct leaks, and 30% outside air enters the coil (mixing say 10F outside with 65F inside), no heat pump will lift the temperature to what I want. That's why I recommend separate ventilation systems with preheat capabililty for commercial systems. MS: When considering HVAC environmental impacts it is also important to consider overall system efficiency. When you take into account that the process of producing electricity arriving at your building is about 25%^ to 30% efficient then the "efficiency" of a heat pump is not nearly as impressive. Also in my little corner of the world electricity is two to ten times more expensive than natural gas. It takes a lot of efficiency to over come the cost difference. GHPC: Both these topics were treated by EPA report EPA 430-R-93-004, "Space Conditioning: The Next Frontier" in a modeling analysis that compared GX with both standard and high efficiency air-source, electric resistance, gas with A/C, oil with A/C and even gas-fired air-source heat pumps. The report is available from EPA, or from GHPC (free, at least to members. Call 1-888-333-GHPC or info@ghpc.org. As you might surmise, high-efficiency GX came out very well in this 6-region comparison. MS: The environmental impacts also will vary depending upon how your electricity is produced. In Pennsylvania about 60% of the electricity is produced from buring coal, another 30% or so from nukes. This last point is extremely important and often seems to be overlooked and overshadowed by the impressive sounding efficiencies with ground source heat pumps. Site energy may be less, but take into account source energy and heat pumps of any kind don't stack up. GHPC: As I recall, "Space Conditioning" used US national average generation mix, but did explicitly consider externalities. Some "experts" argue that, if combustion is required, emissions will be minimized by combustion of gas in large enough systems to justify good controls and compliance (e.g., combined cycle turbines), rather than distributed combustion with relatively high NOx small water heaters and furnaces. Your values may vary (both in terms of emissions and what is important to you). ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 =========== end ========= ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 11:10:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08186 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:10:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06476; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:08:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:04:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA06051 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06047 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:04:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA02278; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:04:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:04:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy7.vineyard.net(206.166.158.65) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id smaa02225; Wed Dec 9 11:03:55 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <955d6e76.366e7165@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, GrenSheltr@aol.com From: John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: Trees and the code Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5213 Hi Linda - You said: >for the first time I will be building a new home in an area that actually >requires full stamped plans and also has progress/code inspections (sure was >easy building where they did no inspections ) - Albemarle Cty, Virginia --- >would like to use trees from the site for the support posts and roof beams for >this post and beam straw bale infill house but am thinking this will not be >possible because of the code requirements and inspections ----- comments >from anyone who has been through this ??? As you know, we use salvage timber, native timber, crooked trees from our sites, etc. extensively in our buildings. You probably don't know, however, (since you haven't had the good fortune of dealing with them over the years), that building inspectors have great latitude to interpret codes and are a diverse lot. So, no easy answers but a few suggestions: 1) Find a quality builder to work with who works in Albermarle City, has good relationships with the officials, AND believes in what you're doing (and if he/she doesn't, take the time to find out why); 2) Hire a registered lumber grader and a structural engineer to inspect/grade your timber and review/stamp your framing plans; the grader shouldn't be a problem, the engineer might be because they can't find that stuff in tables. But creative ones will tackle it, and if you can't find one of those try Ben Brungraber (at Bensonwood Homes in Alstead NH) or one of the other Timber Frame engineers (find them through the North American Timber Framers' Guild in Bellingham, WA). Hope this helps. Don't let up. Good luck. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 11:27:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08471 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08235; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:24:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:21:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07862 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:20:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07858 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:20:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA29906; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA12660; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:20:45 -0500 Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:20:45 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: "Beverly A. Weiter" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Habitat for Humanity In-Reply-To: <19981209.103539.9398.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5214 Dear Beverly, As a community based project, I always imagined that Habitat would be a perfect outlet for the implementation of sustainable building practises. Getting upstream in the decision making process proved to be rather laborious and time consuming, however, for me, at least, in the Boston area. Nevertheless, the prospects ought to be good (one might think) for designing and building energy efficient solar residences, since this is so obviously cost effective. It also never made sense to me, having worked on urban housing for the low income sector, to provide people, who are just scraping by with housing stock that costs a fortune for heat, lighting, and power. ("With friends like this...") I did not see the continuing mainetance and operating costs, in these regards, considered and addressed in pro-active ways. Its frustrating to volunteer to help build regressive housing. How can we help them in planning better housing that's good for the future? Yours truly, On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > Ian, John et al., > > I heartily endorse the sentiment of getting experience before you go into > architecture, interior design or any other related design field. Before > becoming an interior designer I owned, managed and repaired a number of > rental properties. The experience garnered there and in working on > Habitat for Humanity homes was very valuable in space planning. > > By the way, volunteering for Habitat for Humanity is a good way both to > get hands on experience and do something worthwhile for the community. > This is especially true since Habitat has adopted some sustainable > building materials. > > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > Boca Raton, FL > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > Please, add the following to your mailing list, and send press releases, announcements, and notices of events to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 For edited news you can RE-use, send "subscribe er-list" for the "Environmental Review" and/or "subscribe solar_utilities" for info on Solar Utilities, to: . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 12:29:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09719 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:29:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12727; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:26:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:22:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12039 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:22:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12035 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:22:10 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id HYDUa12607; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:13:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4f763f8.366eafa3@aol.com> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:13:07 EST To: rnn@rnn.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Trees vs code Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5215 In a message dated 98-12-09 09:42:07 EST, rnn@rnn.com writes: << So, what's the prob. You know the species of tree and therefore the fiber strength and other numbers. You can visually inspect for knots and weak points. You can load one member til it breaks and you can over build, if needs be. ...but you're right: if will "not be possible" if you don't find a way to do it. Good luck. -Ross >> the "Problem" was NOT how to actually build it - the problem was will the inspector person approve it have built earth shelters and a variety of other unusual structures but never had to deal with the bureaucracy before Linda ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 12:33:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09817 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:33:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13562; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:31:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:26:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12722 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:26:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12718 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:26:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id JAA05826 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:26:47 -0800 Message-ID: Date: 9 Dec 1998 09:28:31 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: Architectural Spear Carriers To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA12719 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5216 John, I applaud you for requiring your new architect to work on your construction crew for awhile. Please let us know how others on the crew react when they find that this guy who starts out barely able to carry boards is making considerably more--I assume--than they are. It also occurred to me: what about having new construction people work for several months in the architect's office? (An architect friend of mine pointed out that people are quick to condemn architects who can't build but not builder's who can't design.) Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 12:34:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09833 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:34:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13594; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:31:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:27:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12777 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:26:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12770 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:26:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.162.253.90] (d70.best1.net [205.162.253.90]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA19572; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:26:48 -0800 X-Sender: smcgrath@mail.best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:27:52 -0800 To: Renewable News Network From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: Habitat for Humanity Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5217 >I did not see the continuing mainetance and operating costs, in these >regards, considered and addressed in pro-active ways. Its frustrating to >volunteer to help build regressive housing. How can we help them in >planning better housing that's good for the future? > >Yours truly, > Simple answer: get involved! HFH is a largely volunteer organization, although mnay of the local affiliates have staff, those staff will be geared more toward fund raising and development, with a construction coordinator, depending on the amount of building being done. BUT HFH HQ has developed a 'Green Team' approach to advocationg for sustainability in the affiliates. The decisions though are made at the local level, where the houses are designed and built, often one at a time, but frequently enough that HFH is the 20th largest builder in the US. I am comfortable making the blanket statement that any affiliate will be delighted to accept offers of advice in developing 'green' protocols in general or sustainable design issues for a particular project. Each affiliate has a 'Building committee', again all volunteer, that develops plans. Ask how you can help - it will only be one house at a time maybe, but isn't that how we do it anyway; plus the benefits of volunteering for this organzation reach so far into our personal lives. It's grand. Millard Fuller, founder of HFH, said in his book 'Theology of the Hammer' - "Our goal in Habitat for Humanity is to completely eliminate poverty housing and homelessness. We will accomplish that lofty goal by making shelter a matter of conscience. Our intention is to make substandard housing and homelessness socially, politically, morally, and religiously unacceptable." Another thought: Global Green USA has published a book: "A Blueprint for greening affordable Housing"; $21 plus $4 S&H inside US, $15 outside US, plus CA residents add 8.25% sales tax; available from Global Green USA, 1600 Main St, Venice, CA 90291, 310 577-1885 ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine with live internet broadcast every Monday at 4:05pm PST http://www.buildamerica.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 13:05:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA10621 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:05:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16749; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:03:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:59:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16162 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:58:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from labs.tamu.edu (labs.tamu.edu [128.194.103.89]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16152 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:58:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (modem-1487.rns.tamu.edu) by labs.tamu.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00022119@labs.tamu.edu>; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:59:12 -0600 Message-ID: <366EBA92.5C05@labs.tamu.edu> Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:59:46 -0600 From: marvit Reply-To: rsm444d@labs.tamu.edu Organization: Texas A&M University X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, iroth@ecs.umass.edu Subject: Re: GBlist: Sust Bldg Careers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5218 I think this is a good idea; would like to add my 2Cents. I'm 40, and should have known better when I was younger, but had to learn the hard way. Because of my own flaws, life had to drill it into me (again, & again & again &...)certain laws of Nature.. Wood Rots!!; metals carode(sp?) ; water is heavier than you can imagine, Water is your enemy, Water will find a way to penetrate anything; when you build anything on a bright sunny day---you may forget it will be subjected to that: 60mph , raindrops (the size of cars) driven, 60days in a row, type catastrophy; Bugs,animals,pests are persistent as hell; People don't use things the way you design them to be !!!!; Not a good plan to site your 3MIlL.$ house on a ledge made of dried out mud. Etc. Etc. Etc. I probably didn't express it well, but the main point i was going for was---we may learn more from seeing others MISTAKES . Maybe a person should go into the Renovation trade??? i don't know. Wasn't there a book written years ago that dealt with this? Warm Regards, J.Frost > I second Arnie's sentiment. Build stuff. As much as you can. > > We just hired an architect who has been practicing for 10 years, working in > large and small firms. He's an accomplished designer and a very thoughtful > guy, but he's never built anything. When he starts here, he will be > working for at least some months, at architects' pay, on our construction > crews. We think it will be critical to his success in a design/build firm > such as this. > > John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 13:13:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA10732 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:13:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17887; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:11:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:07:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17311 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:06:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17307 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:06:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA22793; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:04:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:04:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy10.vineyard.net(206.166.158.68) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id smaa22748; Wed Dec 9 13:04:16 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Jean Gallagher" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: Architectural Spear Carriers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5219 Jean- You said: >I applaud you for requiring your new architect to work on your construction >crew for awhile. Please let us know how others on the crew react when they >find that this guy who starts out barely able to carry boards is making >considerably more--I assume--than they are. Half of our 22 employees (some of whom are carpenters making less than our new designer will make) are owners of this company, and were involved in the decision to hire him and to have him work on the crews. So I guess that's covered. But there may be some resentments among some - and of course I may never know. My guess is that, by and large, it will work out well. I'll let you know what happens, and what we learn. > >It also occurred to me: what about having new construction people work for >several months in the architect's office? (An architect friend of mine >pointed out that people are quick to condemn architects who can't build but >not builder's who can't design.) We don't condemn architects who can't build; we try to teach them to. And we never ask our carpenters to work in the office as architects for extended periods of time - they get cranky when you put those bow ties on 'em. Y'know? John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 13:29:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11005 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:29:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19008; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:26:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:22:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18636 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:22:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18631 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:22:33 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id NTOKa20423 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:20:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4438357e.366ebf56@aol.com> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:20:06 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Global Green Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5220 In a message dated 98-12-09 12:29:38 EST, smcgrath@buildamerica.com writes: << Another thought: Global Green USA has published a book: "A Blueprint for greening affordable Housing"; $21 plus $4 S&H inside US, $15 outside US, plus CA residents add 8.25% sales tax; available from Global Green USA, 1600 Main St, Venice, CA 90291, 310 577-1885 ______________ >> I just called to order one and it will not even be back from the publisher intil after 1/1/99 Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 13:34:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11148 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:34:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19603; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:31:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:28:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19113 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:27:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.8] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19109 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:27:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.47]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4948200 ; Wed, 09 Dec 1998 10:32:57 -0800 Message-ID: <366EC0C2.3DC05183@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 10:26:11 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elizabeth White CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: mass & glass analysis References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5221 The Vital Signs Project has a good pdf article on line ' Thermal Mass in Passive solar and Energy Conserving Buildings' by Bruce Haglund and Kurt Rathmann as well as a number of other very useful tools. resources listed at http://www-archfp.ced.berkeley.edu/vitalsigns/res/rps.html There are also a number of good discussions on gb archive. I think daylighting is an important consideration in our shared locale as daytime electric light usage here is not uncommon in our dark and drearier days and elimination of this requirement is a benefit of glazing where heating benefits may be less substantial. Offhand I would think that concerns with overheating will be less a question of reducing mass or glazing than providing accurate shading in the design. Anyone have special comments or observations on glazing and mass in the pacific northwest John Elizabeth White wrote: > Thank you Norbert and Bruce for the suggestions. > > Solar 5.5, free from http://www.aud.ucla.edu/energy-design-tools/ looks > like it might work. How user friendly is it? (I have macs, so I have to get > a conversion program before I can find out) and does anyone know its > limitations? > > Question about REM/Design in the Iris Catalog From > the description, REM/Design sounds like HOT2000, which I normally use but > doesn't help with this problem. Does REM/Design handle overheating and high > mass houses better than HOT2000? > > I was also hoping the engineering types on this list might come up with > some really simple methods or rules of thumb relating to quantity of mass, > overhead and vertical glazing and temperature swing. Apart from my current > dilemma, it seems to me that the whole light-and-tight versus > mass-and-glass discussion was rather abruptly terminated last time around > and I for one would like to see it revisited. Achieving good passive solar > performance (includes daylighting) is surely the starting point for any > greenbuilding and the glazing options available now are powerful but also > complicated. > > Elizabeth White > > __________________ > Elizabeth White, Sustainable Housing Solutions > 171 Vesuvius Bay Road, Saltspring Island, B.C. V8K 1K3 > phone: (250) 537-2616 fax:(250) 537-2681 > email: elizwhite@saltspring.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 15:35:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13877 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:35:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28921; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:33:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:29:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28269 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:29:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28262 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:28:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id PAA12598; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:28:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA25905; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:28:56 -0500 Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:28:56 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: John Salmen Cc: Elizabeth White , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: mass & glass/overheating In-Reply-To: <366EC0C2.3DC05183@cow-net.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5222 Dear folks, I almost replied, before... But the point needs to be asserted, as it applies to regions of less than 30 degrees F. annual average temperature, and -10 F. worst day temperatures; I've never heard anybody ever complain about overheating in the middle of the Winter doldrums On a minor point, John, you may have misspoke re: > question of > reducing mass I'd say, in general, of course, the response to overheating is to increase mass. You can even design in a variable mass system, by adding/draining water, one of the better thermal storage mediums available, as necessary. Yours truly, Ross ps see Mazria, Edward good curves, good design process and tools (transparent graphic overlays) encl: On Wed, 9 Dec 1998, John Salmen wrote: > The Vital Signs Project has a good pdf article on line ' Thermal Mass in > Passive solar and Energy Conserving Buildings' by Bruce Haglund and Kurt > Rathmann as well as a number of other very useful tools. resources listed at > http://www-archfp.ced.berkeley.edu/vitalsigns/res/rps.html > There are also a number of good discussions on gb archive. > I think daylighting is an important consideration in our shared locale as > daytime electric light usage here is not uncommon in our dark and drearier days > and elimination of this requirement is a benefit of glazing where heating > benefits may be less substantial. > Offhand I would think that concerns with overheating will be less a question of > reducing mass or glazing than providing accurate shading in the design. > Anyone have special comments or observations on glazing and mass in the pacific > northwest > > John > > > > > > Elizabeth White wrote: > > > Thank you Norbert and Bruce for the suggestions. > > > > Solar 5.5, free from http://www.aud.ucla.edu/energy-design-tools/ looks > > like it might work. How user friendly is it? (I have macs, so I have to get > > a conversion program before I can find out) and does anyone know its > > limitations? > > > > Question about REM/Design in the Iris Catalog From > > the description, REM/Design sounds like HOT2000, which I normally use but > > doesn't help with this problem. Does REM/Design handle overheating and high > > mass houses better than HOT2000? > > > > I was also hoping the engineering types on this list might come up with > > some really simple methods or rules of thumb relating to quantity of mass, > > overhead and vertical glazing and temperature swing. Apart from my current > > dilemma, it seems to me that the whole light-and-tight versus > > mass-and-glass discussion was rather abruptly terminated last time around > > and I for one would like to see it revisited. Achieving good passive solar > > performance (includes daylighting) is surely the starting point for any > > greenbuilding and the glazing options available now are powerful but also > > complicated. > > > > Elizabeth White > > > > __________________ > > Elizabeth White, Sustainable Housing Solutions > > 171 Vesuvius Bay Road, Saltspring Island, B.C. V8K 1K3 > > phone: (250) 537-2616 fax:(250) 537-2681 > > email: elizwhite@saltspring.com > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 18:16:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA16807 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:16:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09368; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:13:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:09:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08797 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:09:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.220]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08784 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:09:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin056.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.66]) by hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/) with SMTP id PAA16555; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:09:03 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <366F0294.7FB5@uidaho.edu> Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 15:07:00 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Abrams CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, iroth@ecs.umass.edu Subject: Re: GBlist: Sust Bldg Careers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5223 John Abrams wrote: thoughtful> guy, but he's never built anything. When he starts here, he will be> working for at least some months, at architects' pay, on our construction> crews. We think it will be critical to his success in a design/build firm When does he get a raise and work at builders' pay? :) Kurt Rathmann a designer-builder with too many years in architecture school. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 18:53:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA17317 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:53:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA11464; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:50:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:45:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA10814 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:44:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.220]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10801 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:44:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin056.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.66]) by hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/) with SMTP id PAA25815; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:43:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <366F0770.6A43@uidaho.edu> Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 15:27:44 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GrenSheltr@aol.com CC: rnn@rnn.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Trees vs code References: <4f763f8.366eafa3@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5224 Hire a 'transient' grader through your regional certification organization - whoever enforces standard grading rules for your area. Ask your building official who to contact. In my area, they charge 30 cents per mile travel, and a 3 hour minimum at about $60/hour. They can grade up to 20,000 board feet of material in 3 hours depending on how its stacked, cut dimension, and how much help available for turning and stacking the material. There is a difference between lumber grading and timber grading (anything bigger than 6x6) - so be sure to have the appropriate grader(s). Also, cut off ends prior to grading. They will reject a piece even if you intended on removing the 'bad' part. If the material is green (greater than 19% moisture content) then your engineer will have to consider the reduction in design value required for vertical cross-grain dimensional changes. In one case, I used salvaged beams and the building official simply wanted to visually inspect the timbers beforehand. Every jurisdiction is different. Good luck, Kurt Rathmann 3 Little Pigs Design-Build Moscow, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 19:09:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA17568 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 19:09:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12385; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 19:06:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 19:01:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA12023 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 19:01:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12019 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 19:01:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.99.21]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA17651 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:04:51 +0000 Message-ID: <366F0F33.DFED6520@which.net> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:00:52 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Heat pumps, geothermal or otherwise. X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5225 In my view, when driven by electricity from renewable sources, all heat pumps are cool. Otherwise, when used for heating, they must use just as much fossil fuel as a furnace. However I found this statement on the Geothermal heat pump consortium web site: "They are an average of 48% more efficient than the best gas furnaces on a source fuel basis" I am having difficulty interpreting this. It sounds good but I am not really sure? Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 9 20:20:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA18431 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15854; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:17:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:14:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15473 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from aries.wise.net (aries.wise.net [207.173.83.205]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15467 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:13:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail3.wise.net (actually host gw3.wise.net) by aries.wise.net with SMTP (XT-PP); Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:12:53 -0700 Received: from dotnetgw3-Message_Server by mail3.wise.net with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 09 Dec 1998 18:14:40 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 16:57:05 -0700 From: Thomas Hartman To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: clients as architects, and builders as clients Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5226 I'd like to offer a few thoughts on the posts regarding architects and builders. Some background: >From thirteen, I grew up working as a carpenter for a General Contractor in Mystic, CT. The company was owned by my mother and her partner. On the first day, when I wasn't picking up garbage, I was asked to move a lumber pile from one side of the site to the other, in January, to help thaw the wood for framing! Unfortunately, the crew knew this lad of thirteen wanted to be an architect, and so that was only the beginning of the education of this architect. I also learned about percolation tests with a post hole digger and an audience. After I decided I knew everything at seventeen, I started a deck building business and even saw some money pass through my hands and out the door. I then earned an Associate of Architectural Engineering Technology from Wentworth in Boston, and then went for five more years for a professional degree in Architecture from USC in Los Angeles. I'm back in Boston now working in an architectural firm, taking the Architectural Registration Exam,! and build for myself when I can. I'd like to say that this list is a huge part of my unending education. Thank you to all. However, there seem to be some "phrases of truth" that resound between my ears, even when I'm having a conversation with myself. I can really be a terrible client, can't build what I draw, don't draw when I build, and usually don't have the money to pay either the architect or the builder beyond the materials I can find. I hope to draw a laugh from the group, but also to point out that the nature of the role assumed predicates a particular response. In the Construction Industry, there are: clients who don't like the architect's design and therefore need to be educated, architects who don't care what the client wants, clients who appreciate the architect only at cocktail parties, architects who are appreciated only at cocktail parties, architects who don't know the first thing about building, builders who don't wear bowties and therefore shouldn't design, engineers who prefer the word can't more than could and will, architects who don't care how the engineering works as long as it looks good, interior designers who think that architects should concentrate on the outside, architects who think that interior designers are interior desicrators because they can't understand the uncommunicated design intention, consultants who can't "fix" the design because they weren't brought in soon enough, consultants who resent being brought in too early, when there's nothing to "fix", builders who never read the plans unless there's something missing, architects who don't review the specs and plans together and wonder why the builder has to ask a question, developers who don't care about the environment, environmentalists who want to stop all development, planning boards who don't like the design, but aren't sure where the site is, architects who refer to the historical commission as the hysterical communists, insurance companies who could care less as long as they receive their payments from all of the above, and the banks who love every design as long as it doesn't leak and the FAR is maxed out. Who would have it any other way? I'd consider myself lucky if I'm a little of each. (a footnote: these are not my own personal views, only what I've been TAUGHT by others through experience) ! ! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 00:14:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21832 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:14:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA27456; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:11:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:07:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA26973 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:07:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA26965 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:07:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa5-p23.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.215]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA08524 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:07:09 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sa5-p23.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.215] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:07:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <366F5688.89CC18FE@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:05:12 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: clients as architects, and builders as clients References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5227 Thomas Hartman wrote: > > I'd like to offer a few thoughts on the posts regarding architects and builders. Thomas, You are wise beyond your years and your "learning" is serving you in good stead, that is the best synthesis of the world of construction I've ever seen. May I quote you at the next Woodpecker's Ball? Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 00:23:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21914 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:23:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA28263; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:20:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:16:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA27653 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:16:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.monumental.com (mail1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27648 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:16:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by mail1.monumental.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA23649 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:11:48 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:17:37 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Architectural Spear Carriers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5228 981209 Didn't F L Wright carry this to an extreme at his midwest studio/home? Ref recent PBS/Ken Burns et al documentary. jh >John, > >I applaud you for requiring your new architect to work on your construction >crew for awhile. Please let us know how others on the crew react when they >find that this guy who starts out barely able to carry boards is making >considerably more--I assume--than they are. > >It also occurred to me: what about having new construction people work for >several months in the architect's office? (An architect friend of mine >pointed out that people are quick to condemn architects who can't build but >not builder's who can't design.) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 00:23:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21919 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:23:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA28271; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:20:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:17:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA27664 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:16:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.gorge.net (mail.gorge.net [205.162.195.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27650 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:16:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from gorge.net ([208.14.145.18]) by mail.gorge.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-54909U8000L800S0V35) with ESMTP id AAA191 for ; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 21:10:53 -0800 Message-ID: <366F5AFC.9837E8AC@gorge.net> Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 21:24:47 -0800 From: Daniel Dancer Organization: ZeroCircles Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: water in the home Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5229 I'm building a "green home" in a very dry area and would like to bring water inside somehow....an indoor water garden (connected to small pond outside), a stream cruising through, a waterfall....something ala Frank Lloyd Wright. Does anyone have any special references to creating something unusual of this nature, it's problems and the 'healthy house' benefits? Many Thanks, Daniel Dancer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 00:24:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21938 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:24:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA28439; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:22:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:18:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA27851 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:18:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27835 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:18:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip10.ivnet.net [206.101.73.170]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12940; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 21:07:28 -0800 Message-ID: <366F5895.A4231569@ivnet.net> Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 21:13:57 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GrenSheltr@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Trees vs code References: <955d6e76.366e7165@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5230 Linda, You can probably make the inspectors happy by having a licnsed lumber grader come out to grade stamp your beams after they are milled. This can vary with regards to expense, tho it is seldom cheap. Figure a few hundred bucks. Your best source for a grader would be at a local lumber mill, if you have one. For non-structural applications (decorative post for the center of a spiral staircase maybe) you might be able to get an inspector to approve a use without a grade stamp. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon GrenSheltr@aol.com wrote: > would like to use trees from the site for the support posts and roof beams for > this post and beam straw bale infill house but am thinking this will not be > possible because of the code requirements and inspections ----- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 00:55:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA22840 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:55:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA00186; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:52:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:48:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA29447 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:48:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA29443 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:48:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa5-p23.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.215]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA17331 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:48:34 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sa5-p23.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.215] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:48:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <366F603C.D305CBF9@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 00:46:36 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: water in the home References: <366F5AFC.9837E8AC@gorge.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5231 Daniel Dancer wrote: > > I'm building a "green home" in a very dry area and would like to bring > water inside somehow.... Daniel, I remembering seeing one photo in Fine Homebuilding's "Finishing Touches" section of a house in the desert SW, running straight through the center of the hallway, down a few steps and through the living room was a small channel (5 or 6" wide) of running water. The note said it was intended for humidification/cooling and the soothing sound of burbling water. I also remember a reference in either The Whole Earth Catalogue or Shelter to a cooling system used somewhere in North Africa, the well is enclosed as part of the house and reed mats are suspended part way into the open well. As the water wicks up through the mats, air moving from low vents on the north side of building passes through the mats and up through the rest of the rather tower shaped house. If you need further info on these two references, let me know and I'll do a little digging. Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 05:54:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA25261 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 05:54:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA08732; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 05:51:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 05:47:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA08469 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 05:47:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA08465 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 05:47:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-135-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.135]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA27369; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 05:47:45 -0500 Message-ID: <366FA6C7.C6CD1990@together.net> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 05:47:36 -0500 From: Thomas Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "malcolm.scott@which.net" CC: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Heat pumps, geothermal or otherwise. References: <366F0F33.DFED6520@which.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------CCE9B077E2F8553F91D53166" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5232 --------------CCE9B077E2F8553F91D53166 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Malcom: > RE: "They are an average of 48% more efficient than the best gas > furnaces on a source fuel basis" I too find that statement elusive. What I find troubling about the geo heat pump Consortium, based on local seminars they have presented and comments on this list, is they expound the benefits, are elusive about real savings and drawbacks in commercial applications, and seem to counter with referenced studies, many of which are apparantly pontifications from parties having a vested interest. The credibility of the Consortium is, in my opinion, questionable. Most disturbing to me are some of the previous Consortium responses, which unfortunatly are not in a spirit of discussion and learning, a benchmark of this particular GB list ...... with comments that seem more like a pitch from a used car salesman or Farangie... almost a fanatical religious response. My previous comments regarding water source heat pumps, both the standard and geo varieties, are based on experience, independent studies and real-world feedback from contractors and building owners, in Northern Vermont, US. Tom Anderson --------------CCE9B077E2F8553F91D53166 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Malcom:
RE: "They are an average of 48% more efficient than the best gas
furnaces on a source fuel basis"
I too find that statement elusive.
What I find troubling about the geo heat pump Consortium, based on local seminars they have presented and comments on this list, is they expound the benefits, are elusive about real savings and drawbacks in commercial applications, and seem to counter with referenced studies, many of which are apparantly pontifications from parties having a vested interest.  The credibility of the Consortium is, in my opinion, questionable.

Most disturbing to me are some of the previous Consortium responses, which unfortunatly are not in a spirit of discussion and learning, a benchmark of this particular GB list ......  with comments that seem more like a pitch from a used car salesman or Farangie... almost a fanatical religious response.

My previous comments regarding water source heat pumps, both the standard and geo varieties, are based on experience, independent studies and real-world feedback from contractors and building owners, in Northern Vermont, US.

Tom Anderson --------------CCE9B077E2F8553F91D53166-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 06:46:32 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA25651 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 06:46:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA10117; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 06:44:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 06:40:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA09888 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 06:40:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA09884 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 06:40:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.99.77]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA25052 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:43:52 +0000 Message-ID: <366FA3CF.545E15E3@which.net> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:34:56 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Heat pumps not required for cooling X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5233 Maybe this has been tried, but Chuck hinckley's reference to a wet reed mat chimney driven cooling system in Africa has me wondering if this couldn't be a simple, low initial and running cost, solution to cooling requirements everywhere. A chimney in the centre of the house, drawing air through low vents past a wet porous material which absorbs the heat from the building. Malcolm Scott Chuck Hinckley wrote: I also remember a reference in either The Whole Earth Catalogue or Shelter to a cooling system used somewhere in North Africa, the well is enclosed as part of the house and reed mats are suspended part way into the open well. As the water wicks up through the mats, air moving from low vents on the north side of building passes through the mats and up through the rest of the rather tower shaped house. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 07:58:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA26293 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:58:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA11929; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:56:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:52:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA11685 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:52:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA11681 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:52:15 -0500 (EST) From: JNH2@aol.com Received: from JNH2@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id VKYEa17654; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:51:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <540dd57a.366fc3e1@aol.com> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:51:45 EST To: ddancer@gorge.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: water in the home Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5234 Dear Dan, An idea I've been toying with for an interior water element is a "water curtain". I saw an application in Mexico along one side of an outdoor cafe that used a stanard gutter top and bottom with medium weight fishing line run between, the water falling in drips down each line spaced about 6 inches apart. For an interior application I'm planning on using copper pipe and creating a frame roughly 6 feet tall and five feet wide with lines every 4 inches. To get the drops to potentially stay 4 to 5 inches apart, I'm figuring on a 13-15 gallon per hour pump. I haven't built the mock-up yet to see where my "figuring" departs from reality, but I think the idea is sound, just the particular pipe sizes and pump strength that may need fine tuning. Also, check out garden supply shops, the boutiquey type. There has been a plethora of fountain-type interior sculpture things in this area, many are pretty silly and do little to produce the sound of water or put much humidity in the air, but they look cool. Good luck, Jim Holdcraft Saint Louis ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 08:08:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA26365 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:08:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12384; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:05:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:02:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12082 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:02:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from sbra.com ([206.67.80.99]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12078 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:02:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from sbra.com by sbra.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA26230; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:57:12 -0500 Message-ID: <366FC53A.19E62024@sbra.com> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:57:31 -0500 From: "Peter R. Nobile, III, AIA" Reply-To: prn251@sbra.com Organization: Shepley Bulfinch Richardson and Abbott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jean Gallagher , Greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Architectural Spear Carriers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5235 Jean Gallagher wrote: > > John, > > I applaud you for requiring your new architect to work on your construction > crew for awhile. Please let us know how others on the crew react when they > find that this guy who starts out barely able to carry boards is making > considerably more--I assume--than they are. > > It also occurred to me: what about having new construction people work for > several months in the architect's office? (An architect friend of mine > pointed out that people are quick to condemn architects who can't build but > not builder's who can't design.) > > Jean Jean and others - I'm that architect that John Abrams has just hired...and just to clear things up, I asked to work in the field for a while before starting in the office, and John thought it was a good idea. I think it is important that architects work in the field, but not all architects have a desire to connect with the materials of building, which is what in the end pushed me to go and work for John. I am trying to follow through on a passion for making good, useful, durable and sustainable things, and I want to help craft these things. For the last few years I've been working on the construction administration end of the architectural business, so I've got some idea of what goes on outside the office. I've worked almost entirely on institutional and commercial projects, so I've got limited construction know-how; but I'm willing and eager to learn more. In my limited experience, sanctimonious comments by architects or builders about each other have led to nothing but unhappiness, mistrust, and rather poor relationship. And as I understand it, relationships are the key to all good things - relationships with co-workers, tradespeople, clients, the government, and the guy/gal who runs the local gas station. AND, in terms of improving our species' poor relationship with planet earth, we're not going to get there from here via antagonistic relationships with each other. It is an enduring idea: co-operate, or die. Here is to ever-improving relationships between architects and builders! Peter R. Nobile III, AIA Soon-to-be lowest man on the carpentry totem pole ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 08:28:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA26496 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:28:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13605; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:25:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:21:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA13167 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA13163 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:21:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip24.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.43]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA110 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:25:52 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19981210082518.008af810@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:25:18 -0500 To: Greenbuilding From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Heat pumps not required for cooling In-Reply-To: <366FA3CF.545E15E3@which.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5236 At 10:34 AM 12/10/98 +0000, malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: >Maybe this has been tried, but Chuck hinckley's reference to a wet reed >mat chimney driven cooling system in Africa has me wondering if this >couldn't be a simple, low initial and running cost, solution to cooling >requirements everywhere. A chimney in the centre of the house, drawing >air through low vents past a wet porous material which absorbs the heat >from the building. >Malcolm Scott > I'd be concerned about bioaerosols... even with disinfectants, a large number of nasty little things are in fair abundance, juts waiting for a suitable substrate. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 08:28:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA26501 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:28:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13630; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:25:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:22:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA13207 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:22:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserve.kvinc.com ([207.100.217.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13199 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:22:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by webserve.kvinc.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BE2416.1A628FE0@webserve.kvinc.com>; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:21:36 -0500 Message-ID: From: Susan Szalla To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE Clients ,Architects, Builders Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 08:21:34 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5237 REGARDING THE DESIGNER/BUILDER DISCUSSION This is a great conversation! What ever the case may be, I applaud anyone who tries to do something to bridge the awful gap between design and construction. This isn't strictly a "green" issue but it is an integrity issue, a responsibility issue, and a team work issue. The people on this list seem to have the right idea! There is a revolution taking place in this industry that revolves around the concept of Sustainability. This is truly an exciting time to be playing a part in this area. However, nothing will get accomplished unless team work is possible. We all have responsibility for the specific tasks that we do in our careers. Yet each one of us needs to be responsible for bridging the gaps and making the teamwork and partnering approach not only possible but successful. (After all, one person can't productively accomplish all of the jobs needed to do in order to design and build a structure!) The people involved in sustainable design and construction, for the most part, are doing it because they know it is right and have a passion to do so. I personally think that this passion could become a part, not only, of bringing more integrity to the structures, but it can also revolutionize the industry in the sense of bringing integrity back into the design & build process as well. This naturally happens because we really care about making something work...we might just let our egos drop down a bit and accomplish some great things. I really think that this can happen now more than every before. Susan Szalla ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 09:42:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA27562 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:42:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16492; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:39:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:35:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA16153 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:35:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mondec.monmouth.edu (mondec.monmouth.edu [192.100.64.210]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA16141 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:35:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from en5m8 (10-10-1-152.fake.monmouth.edu [10.10.1.152]) by mondec.monmouth.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA00387 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:40:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199812101440.JAA00387@mondec.monmouth.edu> X-Sender: tbooth@mondec.monmouth.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:32:37 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Terri E. Booth" Subject: GBlist: Thanks for caring Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5238 As a lurker on this list, I am not a builder, contractor, or engineer. I am a person who cares about the environment enough to recycle, to conserve water and heat even though my landlady is "the one who pays for it," and to dream of one day owning a "green" home. This may sound corny, but lurking on this list has often renewed my hope about the goodness possible in human endeavors. I also take comfort in knowing that I'm not alone in my concerns about how we humans interact with the planet. Thank you all and happy holidays. Terri E. Booth Artist and future greenhome owner ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 10:47:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29175 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:47:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20058; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:44:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:41:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19633 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:40:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19623 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:40:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id JAA0000023469; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:40:58 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981210154353.006bfc50@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:43:53 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Dispappearing Water Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5239 Dear List, For those interested there is a good special section of this week's New York Times Tuesday the 8th on our disappearing water resources. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 11:25:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29823 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:25:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23385; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:22:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:18:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22863 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:18:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22855 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:18:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DV5B6YJY; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:17:48 EST To: malcolm.scott@which.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:45:48 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Heat pumps not required for cooling Message-ID: <19981210.112216.9526.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <366FA3CF.545E15E3@which.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-8 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5240 Malcolm, Beware the gross generalization. In hot humid climates the last thing needed is more moisture inside the house. That hot sticky feeling is definitely not comfortable. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 11:25:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29828 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:25:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23399; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:18:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22877 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:18:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22873 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:18:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DV5B6YPL; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:17:48 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:22:16 -0800 Subject: GBlist: experience Message-ID: <19981210.112216.9526.3.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,6,14-15,17,21-23,26-30 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5241 Hi, again, While we are on the subject, I also think architects should have to spend some time working with interior designers. That way they would find how frustrating it can be to try to furnish rooms chopped up with doors and windows, rooms with odd angles, kitchens designed by architects who never cooked more than a pizza, and many other unwieldy designs that look good but don't function. I recently had to redesign parts of a house which, fortunately wasn't built yet. There were bedrooms with no wall suitable for the bed, an interior soffit that was an eyesore, a kitchen which required the server to walk 26 feet to get to the dining room table on a zigzag course and a home office with all windows at less than desk height AFF so there was no way to place the credenza and work station, just to name a few. I once saw a design by an architect acquaintance. It was for a jazz club/restaurant. I asked if he was a jazz afficianado and he said no. I told him the design was not conducive to either jazz appreciation or eating. The accoustics were poor, the audience too far from the stage and the lighting inappropriate for reading a menu. He blew me off. The club failed in 3 months, but it looked great! Architects have a certain disdain for interior designers and often see us as "inferior designers" but the fact is a building that looks good but isn't functional is the real inferior design. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 12:28:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01006 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:28:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28968; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:25:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:21:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28470 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28465 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:21:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:18:24 -0500 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF36184B@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: GBlist: FW: [Fwd: GreenHOME EDC Magazine Article: Habitats New Green Team ] Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:15:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01BE2461.173B1EF0" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5242 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BE2461.173B1EF0 Content-Type: text/plain For those interested in Habitat for Humanity's ongoing green efforts, here is an article from ED&C on that topic. > <> --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Drew George, Green Building Champion Bovis Construction Corp 7475 Wisconsin Avenue, 10th Floor Bethesda MD 20814 USA Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 http://www.bovis.com Drew.George@Bovis.com ------_=_NextPart_000_01BE2461.173B1EF0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Location: ATT-0-FE11B53E5190D211853800805F514371 Message-ID: <19981207231626.20646.qmail@findmail.com> From: "Adam I. Lowe" To: greenhome@egroups.com Subject: GreenHOME EDC Magazine Article: Habitats New Green Team Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:16:26 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Environmental Design & Construction Magazine September/October 1998 Issue News Habitat's New Green Team KANSAS CITY - Habitat for Humanity has recently formed a "Green Team" to encourage environmentally sensitive building among its affiliates. According to Graham Davis, a former construction manager from the organization's Kansas City affiliate and now head of the Green Team, the group will help Habitat affiliates build homes "that families could hand over to their children's grandchildren." Of Habitat's approximately 1,500 affiliates, over 400 have signed on with the group. Under Davis's direction the Green Team is educating member affiliates on energy efficiency, indoor air quality, and sustainability issues. Affiliates who sign on receive educational aids, such as a primer on green building called the Green Team Playbook, as well as newsletters and technical bulletins. The Atlanta-based Southface Institute, the U.S. DOE, the Florida Solar Energy Center (FSEC), and the Oak Ridge National Labs are all assisting the Green Team in its educational effort. The Team is also conducting blower door testing and insulation installation at Habitat projects and training seminars where each affiliate's own "Green Champion" - a local member who acts as a conduit for information and techniques - will receive intensive training. "All habitat affiliates are indigenous in their operations, and how they build a house is largely left in the hands of that affiliate," said Davis. "So we're trying to provide good consistent information that is volunteer friendly, that is affordable, that enables them to accomplish energy efficiency without ratcheting up costs." Currently, the Team is focusing on building energy-efficient homes and plans to have all Habitat homes built to EPA Energy Star standards. In fact, at a five day "blitz build" in Houston this past June, all 100 homes completed were built to those standards. The Green Team, working with the FSEC at the event, also helped to conduct energy performance tests in the homes. Although the Team will at some point turn more attention towards alternative building technologies and materials, Davis explained that for now he is concerned with improving the conventional building processes and materials most affiliates use. "We want to be supportive of alternative technologies like strawbale and SIP's, but our main thrust right now is addressing conventional construction because that's what the affiliates are doing," he said. "We're taking them from the known to the unknown." The team is, however, currently promoting things like job site recycling and resource-efficient techniques: at a past blitz build there was extensive job site recycling, including the recycling or reuse of sheet rock, scrap lumber, aluminum, and vinyl. "My personal conviction is that the greatest environmental impact that a home is going to have is how much energy it's going to require and how long it will last," said Davis. "We should build it to last 150 to 200 years and build it so it has the smallest possible energy demand." Contact: Graham H. Davis, Green Team Coordinator, 1423 East Linwood Ave., Kansas City, MO 64109 ------_=_NextPart_000_01BE2461.173B1EF0-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 12:56:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01400 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:56:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01009; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:54:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:50:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00599 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:49:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.8] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00595 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:49:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.142]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3921200 ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:51:08 -0800 Message-ID: <36700963.DD435C92@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 09:48:19 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: experience References: <19981210.112216.9526.3.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5243 This is an interesting discussion. Much of which still views the 'architect' as author or at least principal author. The goal seems to be to provide more experience to the architect with the hope of a more viable or responsive product. I have the feeling that within John Abrams working place the architect will be one of a larger team, and the responsibility in the evolution and execution of a plan will be shared. Architecture is a funny discipline. Few are compensated well for their education and effort (compared to other disciplines) and I would say that even fewer define their roles to their own or anyone else's general satisfaction. Greenbuilding is one of the few remaining areas where I think an architect (or designer) can play an important role. A strong training in materials, customs, techniques and orthodoxy can provide the larger perspective often required to facilitate the greening of a project. It has little to do with aesthetics other than aesthetics remain a criteria (often forgotten in more technical green projects) but has more to do with cultural practice and facilitating education and changes in that practice. For example I think one of the most significant changes in a residential space is reducing the size of the space. Doing this effectively and to the benefit of a client is difficult and well suited to a designers training and supposed set of skills. Maintaining a perspective of a building as a complex system with a lifespan is also a skill well suited to the profession of designer or architect, the biggest problem is reducing the significance of these concerns to the shoulders of one profession, or in a team approach to create a hierarchy of responsibility. just some thoughts John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 13:03:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01518 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:03:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01870; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:01:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:57:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01257 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:56:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01241 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:56:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-42-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.42]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA01064 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:56:58 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19981210125723.007e2bd0@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:57:23 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re: Airkrete In-Reply-To: <199812092344.SAA10865@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5244 A client has asked me to evaluate Airkrete for use in a wood-framed house project. Does anyone have any experience with this material that they would be willing to share? Anyone have any opinions to share? Please differentiate between the two! Thanks. My first take is that this appears to be an expensive substitute for dense-pack cellulose, unless one wants more fire-proofing than cellulose provides. These folks have not indicated that they are chemically sensitive. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance Inc Montpelier VT USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 13:03:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01523 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:03:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01904; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 13:01:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:57:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01300 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:57:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01266 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:56:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-42-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.42]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA01044 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:56:38 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19981210125703.007da570@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:57:03 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #401 In-Reply-To: <199812092344.SAA10865@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5245 Elizabeth -- I agree that passive solar is certainly a good place to start for many projects. Checking out interior temperature swings is certainly a vexing problem. The old Mazria Passive solar book came out before the explosion in glass technology that makes me go back to glass manuafacturers about once a year to update my files on who's making what. And then there is the additional problem of what glass you can actually get from your suppliers in your area. I rely on hourly modelling for temperature swing information. You can get a good look at this in the hourly output graphs in Energy-10. But models are only as good as the inputs and software routines -- natural ventilation and even fan-forced summer cooling can be difficult to model. I downloaded the Solar 5.5 software you mentioned, but I have not followed up on it -- I looked at the demo so far -- it runs in DOS and looks a bit clunky to use. I am curious to know what the computation engine for this is. Does anyone know? Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT USA >Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 23:26:45 -0800 >From: elizwhite@saltspring.com (Elizabeth White) >Subject: GBlist: mass & glass analysis > >Thank you Norbert and Bruce for the suggestions. > >Solar 5.5, free from http://www.aud.ucla.edu/energy-design-tools/ looks >like it might work. How user friendly is it? (I have macs, so I have to get >a conversion program before I can find out) and does anyone know its >limitations? > >Question about REM/Design in the Iris Catalog From >the description, REM/Design sounds like HOT2000, which I normally use but >doesn't help with this problem. Does REM/Design handle overheating and high >mass houses better than HOT2000? > >I was also hoping the engineering types on this list might come up with >some really simple methods or rules of thumb relating to quantity of mass, >overhead and vertical glazing and temperature swing. Apart from my current >dilemma, it seems to me that the whole light-and-tight versus >mass-and-glass discussion was rather abruptly terminated last time around >and I for one would like to see it revisited. Achieving good passive solar >performance (includes daylighting) is surely the starting point for any >greenbuilding and the glazing options available now are powerful but also >complicated. > >Elizabeth White > > > >__________________ >Elizabeth White, Sustainable Housing Solutions >171 Vesuvius Bay Road, Saltspring Island, B.C. V8K 1K3 >phone: (250) 537-2616 fax:(250) 537-2681 >email: elizwhite@saltspring.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 15:29:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04189 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:29:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10895; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:27:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:23:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10440 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:23:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10431 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:23:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA29995 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:23:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:23:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from esy16.vineyard.net(206.166.158.146) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma029964; Thu Dec 10 15:22:52 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <366FC53A.19E62024@sbra.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: Experience Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5246 Peter Nobile's insightful comments hit the nail (of this thread) right on the head. I'm sure he'll be doing the same in the field, and I'm sure all can see why I can't wait for this collaboration to begin. It'll be a good one. Thanks for setting the record straight, Peter. And thanks to everyone else who has contributed thoughtful comments. Did others, presumably brighter than I, understand the heading of this thread? Architectural Spear Carriers? Those who have little effect? Bit players? I don't get it. John's "Experience" sounds better to me. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 15:50:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04562 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:50:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12093; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:47:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:44:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA11759 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:43:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11755 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:43:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [153.37.200.254] (1Cust254.tnt3.redmond.wa.da.uu.net [153.37.200.254]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA10857 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:43:58 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: wrg7@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <366FC53A.19E62024@sbra.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:59:55 -0800 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" From: Mary Colette Wallace Subject: Re: GBlist: experience Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5247 Peter, you wrote > >I'm that architect that John Abrams has just hired...and just to clear things >up, I asked to work in the field for a while before starting in the office, >and John thought it was a good idea. I think it is important that architects >work in the field, but not all architects have a desire to connect with the >materials of building, which is what in the end pushed me to go and work for >John. I am trying to follow through on a passion for making good, useful, >durable and sustainable things, and I want to help craft these things. > >For the last few years I've been working on the construction administration >end of the architectural business, so I've got some idea of what goes on >outside the office. I've worked almost entirely on institutional and >commercial projects, so I've got limited construction know-how; but I'm >willing and eager to learn more. > >In my limited experience, sanctimonious comments by architects or builders >about each other have led to nothing but unhappiness, mistrust, and rather >poor relationship. And as I understand it, relationships are the key to all >good things - relationships with co-workers, tradespeople, clients, the >government, and the guy/gal who runs the local gas station. > >AND, in terms of improving our species' poor relationship with planet earth, >we're not going to get there from here via antagonistic relationships with >each other. > >It is an enduring idea: co-operate, or die. > >Here is to ever-improving relationships between architects and builders! > >Peter R. Nobile III, AIA >Soon-to-be lowest man on the carpentry totem pole ________________________________________________________________________________ ___ Peter, congratulations on your efforts to include hands-on work to your accomplishments. You are truly admirable in 'walking your talk'. I love your statement "It is an enduring idea: co-operate, or die". How true! I'm concerned at this some of the comments in this thread, so I have a few of my own to share... It is ironic in this ever-changing time of vast communications options that people have trouble communicating with others. Yet, the evidence is there - in our statements of how *others* fall short of their obligations while *we* are paragons of virtue. Every profession or industry has jokes about all the others; half in jest and half in jealousy or envy or fear. Sometimes ignorance is the motivating factor for statements that divide *us* from *them*. These jokes and statements do nothing to prepare for the future, brainstorm new solutions or address the potential difficulties. One thing for sure, each time they arise, we all share a responsibility to rectify the situation. In defense of architects.... Many people assume that architects independently make every decision on whim. They don't know that the architect acts as the owners' representative, placing the architect in the middle of nearly every communication between the owner and the regulatory agencies /city officials /contractors /engineers /interior designers and so on. Given the highly codified process of building today, architects are challenged to juggle ever increasing demands on their time while designing and overseeing any building. Where does this lead us? While all of us on this list and others around the globe are attempting to address the difficult task of exchanging the 'bad habits' of energy and environment destroying building practices, systems and materials for the 'good habits' of a sustainably built future, we must not degrade the efforts of others. The future is at stake and we all are needed. Will we rise to the challenge or fall back into cannabalistic dust? The Native Americans said it best . 'Walk a mile in another's moccasins....' PS Don't assume all architects, engineers, builders, designers, contractors etc. are men. Some of us are *women*! Mary Colette Wallace, Assoc.AIA The Wallace Research Group 11330 NE 36th Place G117 Bellevue, WA 98004 425.822.1249 Mailto:wrg7@earthlink.net building the future through objective materials information ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 18:12:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA07335 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:12:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19619; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:10:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:05:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA19114 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:05:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19110 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:05:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip129.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.129]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA25827; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:05:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981210231123.009a411c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:11:23 -0500 To: Andy Shapiro , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Airkrete Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5248 At 12:57 PM 12/10/1998 -0500, Andy Shapiro wrote: > >A client has asked me to evaluate Airkrete ... Andy - it seems that you have got it right fire-proofing & chemical sensitivity (although sensitive to what) seem to be Airkrete's main advantages. Cost being its large disadvantage, plus I believe they recommend a specific & quite expensive vapor retarder primer. I have seen a few retrofit jobs where there are shrinkage gaps between studs & plates, as well as several places where it has been used for band & sill air-sealing where it is falling down after only a few years. I have yet to do an IR scan under pressure on sidewalls, etc., so how effective it is at air-sealing, I don't know. I assume its real world effectiveness is, like most insulation materials, in the hands of the installer. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel.516/477-2922 fax.516/345-3169 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 18:15:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA07377 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:15:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19935; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:13:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:09:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA19410 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:08:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.rof.net (ns.rof.net [209.38.34.254]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19401 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:08:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from Admin3 (firewall.rof.net [209.38.34.241]) by ns.rof.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA29120 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 16:09:04 -0700 (MST) Reply-To: "Cheryl Moseley" From: "Cheryl Moseley" To: Subject: GBlist: Converting generators to methane Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 16:12:08 -0700 Message-ID: <01be3c25$7aec0fe0$0301a8c0@Admin3.rofinside.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01BE3BEA.CE8D37E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5249 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BE3BEA.CE8D37E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings, A person on a BBS I frequent mentioned experiments done in the 70's = regarding the conversion of generators to run on methane. It was also = theorized that one could use the septic as the source of fuel. = Unfortunately, no one in the group had any details to contribute, and I = was wondering if anyone on this list had heard of such a thing. Thanks = in advance. Cheryl Moseley ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BE3BEA.CE8D37E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Greetings,
A person on a BBS I frequent mentioned experiments = done in the=20 70's regarding the conversion of generators to run on methane. It was = also=20 theorized that one could use the septic as the source of fuel. = Unfortunately, no=20 one in the group had any details to contribute, and I was wondering if = anyone on=20 this list had heard of such a thing. Thanks in advance.
Cheryl Moseley
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01BE3BEA.CE8D37E0-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 19:06:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA07990 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:06:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA22688; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:03:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:00:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA22282 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:59:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from garnet.sover.net (garnet.sover.net [209.198.87.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA22278 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:59:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from Alisa (usr0a60.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.60]) by garnet.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA23907; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:59:51 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) Alisa from usr0a60.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.60] 209.198.95.60 Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:59:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981210190030.007479bc@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:00:30 -0500 To: Ian Roth , GreenBuilding List From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: Sust Bldg Careers In-Reply-To: <366D85AF.B941622C@ecs.umass.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5250 Ian, I also strongly agree with others on this list that working on a construction crew is the best education you can get before you design buildings. I recommend a crew on small buildings. Houses or light commercial. Buildings where you can see all the systems as they go in and you can bug the person who installs these systems with questions. Also learn to draw freehand. I have solved many a detail while sketching on a piece of scrap wood. We live in the age of computers, but if you can sketch an idea in 10 minutes and fax it you have a great skill. As far as breaking into this feild. There is now in most parts of the country a shortage of people in the construction trades. Now would be a good time to look. Lastly try finding a small firm that does both design and construction. You would then be able to observe a lot. Good Luck- Danny Sagan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 19:49:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08510 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:49:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24944; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:46:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:42:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA24591 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from monarch.sover.net (monarch.sover.net [209.198.87.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24586 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:42:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from Alisa (usr0a60.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.60]) by monarch.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA04304; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:44:08 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on monarch.sover.net) Alisa from usr0a60.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.60] 209.198.95.60 Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:44:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981210194319.0073ed10@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:43:19 -0500 To: Mary Colette Wallace , "greenbuilding@crest.org" From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: experience In-Reply-To: References: <366FC53A.19E62024@sbra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5251 I am having a hard time with the metaphors , thread and all, but on the subject I thought I would check in with a guy who was making buildings back when all of this trouble we are having was still happening. This is from Vetruvius's Ten Books on Architecture: It Follows, therefore that architects who have aimed at acquiring manual skill without scholarship have never been able to reach a position of authority to correspond to their pains, while those who relied only upon theories and scholarship were obviously hunting the shadow not the substance. But those who have a thorough knowledge of both, like men armed at all points, have the sooner attained their object and carried authority with them. Not bad for 100 BC and that was before the NCARB standards. Danny Sagan Randolph Ctr VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 10 23:11:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11086 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:11:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02982; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:08:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:04:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02617 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:03:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02613 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 23:03:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000002357; Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:03:59 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981211040651.006cc70c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 22:06:51 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Experience Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id XAA02614 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5252 For some time now I've been thinking about writing a piece about the architect client relationship. And though this discussion about the sometimes difficult tie between the builder and the architect is part of the same problem, what I might have to say is too long for this forum; so I offer the following, still unavoidably long, two cents. It’s a big topic. A few years back when I managed the construction of a Habitat house I asked at the Architecture school of our local University for interest in sponsoring a class one session a week to work along with me and other volunteers. I knew that most architects have no hands on experience with building. The most successful aspect of that project however was their enthusiastic approach to the whole idea. We built the house in two months and the one afternoon a week of student labor wasn't enough to give them more than the vaguest idea of how it all happened. I remember though, that majority of them didn't even know how to hammer and I suspect that the little they worked on that house would be the most hands on work many would experience.. More than a year ago, following an good recommendation from a respected friend, we hired an architect to design a house for us---she was supposed to be very creative. During our interview she told us about her experiences over several summers working for a surveyor and for a local design-builder who does rather experimental stuff and who also teaches at the University (and writes for national magazines) He also builds interesting Architectural Record type houses that have closets not wide enough for hangers, and truly open bathrooms and site built metal windows that leak. His latest design, one that is very imaginative is also very controversially placed smack in the middle of a traditional and conservative urban neighborhood (I read his write up on the house for background information for a paper in a class I was taking; it was replete with that special language reserved for the glossy magazines that architects read to each other; his aim of course is to get it into one of those---am sure he will too). Its a very totally out of context ‘cool’ house. Anyway, you get my drift. In deciding to ask an architect to help us we wanted someone who would go beyond our own ideas to bring to us something we couldn't get without them. Instead we basically bought a fairly decent rendering of pretty much what we thought we might like to have [given all the time we've had to think about it--we certainly had no definite ideas in the beginning, rather these have evolved in the absence of anything from our professionals.]. Our architect put in her two bits and added parts we appreciate, but it cost us nearly $10,000 to get that and we still didn't have a working drawing by the time she was off the project. The second architect did the drawings. The first costly one doesn't realize that all that good thinking time is far more than most clients want to afford; we, like most folks, want to see something for our bucks. That means/meant drawings, inspiration and something to show for the rather large amount of money spent. When I asked her to justify this, she defended her position saying by telling us how much time she had spent on our project. Unfortunately she didn't produce anything, or hardly anything. (We had a budget too and a cap on the design work.—we decided it was a bit like the stock market, that we needed to cut our losses before we had more.) Some of her difficulties stemmed from the fact that she had little residential experience but more of it comes from the fact I am convinced, that schools simply don’t teach architects what they are ought to. A friend who is on the faculty here said that students are most interested in what their peers think. And when they get out they still are. Never mind the client. In summary, I think it takes more than just a scattering of real building experience to make an architect properly responsive. I was struck by the mention on this list that one always hears complaints about the architects who don’t know how to build but never the reverse. That, however, is just the point. Architects are hired to design a structure that is not only beautiful, but also buildable. No wonder the popularity of design-build firms is high. Say ‘architect’ to anyone who has wanted to have a space designed for them and the most common response is that when they’ve tried, but the architect just wouldn’t listen to them. Builders are concrete. Architects need to learn to become so too. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 11 04:27:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA15201 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:27:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA13683; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:24:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:18:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA13378 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:18:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA13374 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:18:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id DAA18245 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:18:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md14-24.ix.netcom.com(199.182.66.24) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma018240; Fri Dec 11 03:18:01 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981211041544.006fe748@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:15:46 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Two "wins" for cleaner greener energy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5253 Posted on Non-profit list server under Federal Library Act, for one time use of list members. Not for reproduction except under original copyright protection as shown in articles. --------------------------------------------------------------- ...Two "wins" for cleaner greener energy... --------------------------------------------------------------- Times New RomanBetter Business Bureau Asks NEI To Modify Ads Heralding Nuclear's Environmental Virtues December 11, 1998 The Energy Daily : BY CHRIS HOLLY In a move cheered by the environmental community, the Better Business Bureau told the Nuclear Energy Institute this week to ``modify'' advertising in which NEI says nuclear power does not pollute the air and water. In a decision released Wednesday, the bureau's National Advertising Division said an ad campaign launched six months ago should be changed. The group has no legal authority to require the changes, but its opinions carry substantial weight in the business community. The ads highlighted the environmental benefits of nuclear power, including claims that ``nuclear energy generates electricity without polluting the air and water'' and that nuclear energy ``is environmentally clean.'' The NAD decision comes in response to a formal complaint filed by 15 environmental, consumer, public policy and business organizations, including the Natural Resources Defense Council and the Safe Energy Communication Council. A marketer of ``green power'' also joined in the complaint. NAD agreed with the environmental organizations that nuclear fuel is enriched using electricity often generated by coal-fired power plants, which typically emit significant amounts of pollution, including greenhouse gases. Thus, NAD said, ``it is inaccurate to make an unqualified claim that nuclear electricity does not `pollute the air.''' NAD also agreed that the steam cycle of nuclear power plants, in which cold water is drawn up from a lake or river and very hot water is discharged into the same water body, kills fish and other aquatic life and imposes significant strains on aquatic ecosystems. NAD recommended that future ads clarify that nuclear power plants meet federal water quality standards under the Clean Water Act. NAD said that the potential health and safety risks posed by exposure to radioactive materials require the industry to refrain from using ``overly broad claims that nuclear energy is `environmentally clean''' until nuclear waste disposal issues are resolved. Scott Denman, executive director of the Safe Energy Communication Council, said the NAD ``has struck a vital blow for clear, accurate and truthful information for consumers.'' NAD director Andrea Levine said the nuclear industry could make certain claims about its environmental benefits, but could not justify sweeping claims of having no negative impact on air and water quality. ``The interesting thing about this case is we think that there are many environmental claims they can make; they just have to qualify it," Levine told The Energy Daily. But NEI took issue with NAD's authority to issue a statement on the ads, saying the campaign was aimed at policymakers rather than consumers. The campaign ran print ads in April, June and November a number of major newspapers and national journals. The ads also ran in three publications focused primarily on lawmakers on Capitol Hill. ``These ads clearly were placed to reach policymakers and opinion leaders in Washington and New York, and were not designed to persuade members of the general public that they should buy power generated by nuclear utilities," NEI spokesman Scott Peterson said. Peterson also said NEI did not agree to modify the ads' claims, as NAD asserted. Instead, the association intends ``to take the NAD's concerns into consideration as we plan new ads, which we will do in 1999,'' Peterson said. NEI also took umbrage at NAD's use of life cycle analysis in determining the environmental impact of a nuclear plant, noting that the Federal Trade Commission has stated that it lacks sufficient information to judge the merit of life cycle environment impact analysis. Peterson said applying life cycle analysis to all energy sources would show that virtually no electricity is pollution free, noting that parts for constructing wind turbines are produced by highly polluting aluminum smelters. ``If they are going to use this kind of analysis on all kinds of energy ads, including renewables and hydropower, then nuclear energy is going to fare well in an honest comparison,'' Peterson said. <<<> [Copyright 1998, King Publications] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Power Starts to Flow At First Solar Electric Plant Built for Deregulated Market Announces Sun Power Electric December 11, 1998 N. DARTMOUTH, Mass., Dec. 10 /PRNewswire/ via NewsEdge Corporation -- Power began flowing Thursday from Sun Power Station #1, the first solar-electricity system built specifically to serve the "green power" market created by deregulation. It was dedicated at the BJ's Wholesale Club in N. Dartmouth. Sun Power Electric of Boston, a non-profit and the nation's first utility producing all its power from solar energy and selling it in the competitive market, owns the system. 60 of the 156 photovoltaic (PV) panels -- non-polluting devices fueled by the sun -- are in place. Once completed, the 50 kW system will generate 60,000 kWh of electricity annually, meeting 10 average homes' needs for 20 years. Sun Power sells the power to AllEnergy for its "green" electricity product, "Re-Gen." Consumers choosing Re-Gen can upgrade all or part of their electricity supply from polluting fossil-fuel sources to clean, renewable power. Sun Power President Stephen Cowell said, "We're turning BJ's roofs into carpets of green energy, combining advanced technology and entrepreneurialism to meet the global environmental challenge. These large-scale projects will lower PV's cost and expand opportunities to use it in the electric grid." The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE)'s Utility Photovoltaic Group (UPVG) TEAM-UP program partially funded the system. The Union of Concerned Scientists, Clean Water Action and the Mass. Division of Energy Resources hailed it as an example of energy strategies to protect the environment. To stimulate the Massachusetts PV industry, Sun Power chose panels from ASE Americas in Billerica and Evergreen Solar in Waltham. Ascension Technology of Waltham did the systems engineering. Massachusetts Division of Energy Resources Commissioner David O'Connor said, "Sun Power Station #1 is the Commonwealth's first environmental dividend from our pioneering efforts to bring consumer choice to the electricity marketplace." AllEnergy CEO William Heil said, "This exciting solar power initiative strengthens New England's renewable energy industry. Solar power is good for the environment and good for the economy." "We're pleased to support Sun Power Electric's efforts to provide clean energy for the competitive market and look forward to expanding our collaboration," said BJ's Energy Systems Manager Richard Andelman. BJ's and Sun Power plan installations on BJ's Clubs in Middletown, RI and Philadelphia. SOURCE Sun Power Electric /CONTACT: W. David Stephenson of Stephenson Strategies, 508-359-0155, or Julie Somers of BJ's 508-651-6871/ [Copyright 1998, PR Newswire] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 11 04:55:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA15312 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:55:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA15053; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:53:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:49:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA14609 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:49:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA14605 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:49:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id DAA18937; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 03:48:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md14-24.ix.netcom.com(199.182.66.24) by dfw-ix15.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma018935; Fri Dec 11 03:48:26 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981211044610.006878ac@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 04:46:12 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: "Mass and glass" analysis Cc: psicouncil@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5254 "Mass and glass" analysis ------------------------------ My comparisons of results from using a variety of energy design tools indicate that REM/Design -- while an excellent and user friendly tool for builders and designers (we use it in practice) -- is not really suited for analysis of high-mass passive solar systems in most cases; except that it does work fine for "sun-tempered" designs. A sun-tempered design is one where the conservation criteria of the home are accentuated and the architectural heating (passive) features typically include proper orientation and relocation of direct-gain glazing areas to an equatorial (South facing in the Northern Hemisphere) orientation with adequate overhangs. No added thermal storage capacity is needed in such designs, unless the glazing area exceeds about 7- to 9% of the floor area, depending on climate. Then, one typically uses thin layers of exposed floor tile, or perimeter insulated concrete slabs for the next increment of heat storage (costs may be reduced by having the heat storage subsystem perform multiple functions in the building). >> Energy-10 (Designing Low Energy Buildings) A better tool for looking at thermal mass in comparison with other options in designing a successful "whole-building" system in both residential and commercial buildings, is NREL/PSIC* "Energy-10" simulation tool. Energy-10 also "interacts" assumptions about a buildings' heat capacity with other energy efficiency measures, and can provide a screening listing of measures for further consideration early in the design process -- very useful! Energy-10 @ PSIC web site: Energy 10 has recently been updated, and also is available with a complete all-day training workshop on both the software and excellence in building design. There are others that are more "solar friendly" as well, including the UCLA Solar tool available on-line, and SLR-based "WIN-Guide" developed by Fred Roberts, AIA, which may still be available from PSIC. (SLR = "solar load-ratio" method developed by Jones, MacFarland and Balcolm at Los Alamos in the 70's) Some of you may wish to take a look at the Sept/Oct. 1998 issue of Home Energy Magazine where there is an article going into some detail on the topic of energy efficiency related software. PDF article excerpt (reprints available): More Info on Energy Tools --- DOE Web site covering ! 135 ! Energy Tools (excellent!) ************************************************************************* ** type "passive solar" into search block and see ~ 35 hits to explore ** ** for example -- check out the new "Sombrero" program, pretty cool ! ** ************************************************************************* Note: * posting author has been a member of PSIC since 1983 ------- | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 11 07:36:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA17135 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:36:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA19134; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:34:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:30:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA18849 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:29:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA18845 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:29:52 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id JUPMa19657 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:29:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <14640eb6.36711023@aol.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:29:23 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: The price of oil Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5255 Friends, The older I get, the more I believe in that old mantra of my formative years: Question Everything. I've leaned that most important to any learning is to question my own strongly held assumptions. Watching our new little kitten chasing her own tail around the kitchen this morning, I was reflecting on how much of my own life has been spent on equally valuable activity. Kind of fun, but pretty nutty. We in the environmental movement have been curiously silent on the reasons we have been proven so wrong in our fundamental driving assumption of twenty years ago. Back when Jimmy Carter was president, many authors and professors made their reputations predicting that, by today, the world would be plumb out of oil. Either chaos, war and famine or sustainable Nirvana should have replaced the oil and auto based economy by now. Many of us based our life's work on creating sustainable Nirvana as an alternative to the inevitable chaos if we didn't succeed. Well, we've had some successes to be sure. The very existence of our movement as green builders is a great example. Photovoltaics are approaching economic viability. But in general things haven't changed much. Perhaps most significantly, the tone of environmentalism is still generally one of opposing impending threats rather than creating and celebrating positive goals. We're still generally locked into a political agenda based on fear and negativism. We're just scared of different boogeymen today. Today the "developed world" is full of more gas guzzling oversized vehicles than ever before. Homes are larger than ever before and consume excessive resources, more and more products are built from petroleum based products. The dilemma that has proven our old predictions so wrong: The price of oil, in constant dollars, is the lowest it has ever been. Markets are glutted with the stuff. The oil industry and oil exporting countries are crying poverty. Oil was supposed to be a disappearing precious commodity by now. What's going on? Why were we so wrong in our predictions? Which of the crises we are predicting today are blown out of proportion or merely convenient myths to support our comfortable world views? How should we be altering our rhetoric? How should we be altering our world views? How can we change the politics of environmentalism and sustainability from an agenda based on fear to an agenda based on opportunity. Ah, December. Time to slow down a little and stir up the green builder list again. Enjoy, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 11 07:52:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA17398 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:52:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA19786; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:50:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:46:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA19440 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:46:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA19425; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:46:10 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ438982; Fri, 11 Dec 98 05:45:54 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA16642; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 05:45:38 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 05:45:38 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: anzseelist@metz.une.edu.au Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver Subject: GBlist: GHG reductions through Retrofit Mechanisms In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5256 If anyone is interested in discussing innovative environmental incentives, financial instruments, free-market mechanisms and educational tools to help reduce climatic change through the retrofitting of schools, office buildings, single family residences and communities, please get in touch with myself. I am working on a proposal and welcome constructive input. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 11 08:11:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA17520 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:11:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21013; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:08:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:05:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20716 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:04:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20712 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:04:46 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id WSLAa07662 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:04:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <680ca7a4.36711849@aol.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:04:09 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: The price of oil Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5257 In a message dated 98-12-11 07:32:24 EST, FUnger@aol.com writes: << Perhaps most significantly, the tone of environmentalism is still generally one of opposing impending threats rather than creating and celebrating positive goals. >> yesterday I attended the Pennsylvania Governor's Green Goverment Council seminar when Ray Anderson spoke ------ two of the things I wrote down were ----- Challenge the mindset behind the system The economy is the wholly owned subsidiary of the environment ALSO, we were given a handout mentioning that Anderson's book ---- Mid-Course Correction will be out in the next few weeks - publisher is Chealsea Green Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 11 08:17:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA17599 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:17:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21339; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:13:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:10:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21112 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:10:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21106 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 08:10:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA26502; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 06:10:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-043.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.43), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd026459; Fri Dec 11 06:10:08 1998 Message-ID: <367127D2.6F50114B@primenet.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 06:10:26 -0800 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FUnger@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: The price of oil References: <14640eb6.36711023@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5258 Dear Fred, I don't mean to over simplify here to the very complex social economic conundrum you have raised. But for the sake of brevity, the 70's oil crisis had nothing to do with oil - it was the "spin doctors" keeping our minds off the economic problems this Country was facing. Greed and fueling the economic snow ball are the center piece to the answers of your "why?" Regards, John Wilson Prescott, AZ. FUnger@aol.com wrote: > Friends, > > The older I get, the more I believe in that old mantra of my formative years: > Question Everything. I've leaned that most important to any learning is to > question my own strongly held assumptions. > > Watching our new little kitten chasing her own tail around the kitchen this > morning, I was reflecting on how much of my own life has been spent on equally > valuable activity. Kind of fun, but pretty nutty. > > We in the environmental movement have been curiously silent on the reasons we > have been proven so wrong in our fundamental driving assumption of twenty > years ago. Back when Jimmy Carter was president, many authors and professors > made their reputations predicting that, by today, the world would be plumb out > of oil. Either chaos, war and famine or sustainable Nirvana should have > replaced the oil and auto based economy by now. Many of us based our life's > work on creating sustainable Nirvana as an alternative to the inevitable chaos > if we didn't succeed. > > Well, we've had some successes to be sure. The very existence of our movement > as green builders is a great example. Photovoltaics are approaching economic > viability. But in general things haven't changed much. > > Perhaps most significantly, the tone of environmentalism is still generally > one of opposing impending threats rather than creating and celebrating > positive goals. We're still generally locked into a political agenda based on > fear and negativism. We're just scared of different boogeymen today. > > Today the "developed world" is full of more gas guzzling oversized vehicles > than ever before. Homes are larger than ever before and consume excessive > resources, more and more products are built from petroleum based products. > > The dilemma that has proven our old predictions so wrong: The price of oil, in > constant dollars, is the lowest it has ever been. Markets are glutted with the > stuff. The oil industry and oil exporting countries are crying poverty. > > Oil was supposed to be a disappearing precious commodity by now. What's going > on? > > Why were we so wrong in our predictions? Which of the crises we are predicting > today are blown out of proportion or merely convenient myths to support our > comfortable world views? How should we be altering our rhetoric? How should we > be altering our world views? How can we change the politics of > environmentalism and sustainability from an agenda based on fear to an agenda > based on opportunity. > > Ah, December. Time to slow down a little and stir up the green builder list > again. > > Enjoy, Fred > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 11 09:14:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA18422 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:14:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24590; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:11:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:07:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24140 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:07:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (root@kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24136 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:07:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.70.15 (pm2-15.hoosier.net [206.106.70.15]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01431 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:07:48 -0500 Message-ID: <3670E0DD.2C58@ns.hoosier.net> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:07:41 +0000 From: John Bower Reply-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Airkrete References: <3.0.6.32.19981210125723.007e2bd0@pop.together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5259 With chemically sensitive people, it is especially important to build an airtight house for a variety of reasons. An important one is control of the indoor air by preventing pollutants from haphazardly entering the living space from the soil, from outdoors, from building cavities, etc. With tight construction, insulation stays in building cavities, so a low-tox choice like Air-Krete isn't that important. Of course, airtight construction requires mechanical ventilation... -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 11 09:18:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA18533 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:18:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24982; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:15:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:12:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24622 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:11:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from panther.wcs.org (panther.wcs.org [207.198.132.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24618 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:11:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from wcs.org ([207.198.134.84]) by panther.wcs.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.52) with ESMTP id AAA135C; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:09:53 -0500 Message-ID: <367127B5.302ACC7C@wcs.org> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:09:57 -0500 From: "Jon Dohlin" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Dancer CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: water in the home References: <366F5AFC.9837E8AC@gorge.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5260 daniel: a water element in the home can be much more than estethic. it can be a way introducing natural systems into the living environment to handle greywater etc, as well as provide cooling and temper solar gain and loss. bill todd has done a lot of work creating 'living machines' which incorporate water and plantings as central components of living spaces, there are several functioning marsh lands that are designed to handle municipal water treatment-- see the city of arcata, california website, and also check out a book "dynamic aquaria" (maybe...aquariums"), sorry not at home so the authors escape me but it's published by wiley and sons. it details clearly the considerations necessary to set up functioning marine and freshwater ecosystems under artificial conditions. i have had a fully functioning, self-regulating freshwater "pond" in my manhattan apartment for the last four years, and i can attest to the profound sense of connection and well-being it brings into even this quintessential urban environment. good luck jon Daniel Dancer wrote: > I'm building a "green home" in a very dry area and would like to bring > water inside somehow....an indoor water garden (connected to small pond > outside), a stream cruising through, a waterfall....something ala Frank > Lloyd Wright. Does anyone have any special references to creating > something unusual of this nature, it's problems and the 'healthy house' > benefits? > > Many Thanks, > Daniel Dancer > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 11 09:53:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA19086 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:53:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26739; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:50:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:47:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26236 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:46:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26224; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:46:37 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ028536; Fri, 11 Dec 98 07:45:58 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA19776; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:45:20 -0700 Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 07:45:20 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: Natural Gas stoves & Indoor Air Quality Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5261 If anyone is interested in the above subject please let me know and I can send you a e-mail address for more info. One quote is below. Jorg Ostrowski __________________________________________________________________________ Then, what should our gas be used for? Amory Lovins of the Rocky Mountain Institute on energy efficiency and sustainability says that the best use we could make of our fossil fuels is to use them to manufacture solar energy collectors thus gaining longer-term greater energy efficiency as well as kick starting the solar age before we deplete our present source of energy and thus impoverish ourselves and future generations. This would also provide steady manufacturing employment as well. And, for our health, we would get the very best and cleanest source of energy of all, both for indoor and for outdoor air quality. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 11 09:57:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA19275 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:57:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27282; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:55:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:51:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26805 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 09:51:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199812111451.JAA26805@solstice.crest.org> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:30:08 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: EBN's priorities list Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5262 FUnger@aol.com wrote: >Alex and Nadav, could you post your guidelines for us to review again? I'd >like to decide for myself how I am doing based on the criteria of others whose >work I respect. Hi Folks, Sorry about the delay in posting this. Here's the full article, minus a table and a graphic. We also have it available printed as a handout, if anyone has need for such a thing. Nadav ESTABLISHING PRIORITIES WITH GREEN BUILDING It is rarely possible to do everything we would like to reduce the environmental impact of building projects. It takes time to research alternative design and construction systems; new materials may not have proven track records; higher costs may be an impediment; or clients simply might not be interested. Therefore, it makes sense to figure out where our efforts will do the most good. Where should we focus most of our attention in designing and building structures that will have minimum impact on the environment? Some designers and builders who emphasize sustainability have picked out just one aspect of green design-often it's recycled-content building materials-and hold that up as their flag. Material selection is one of the most visible green building strategies and often the easiest to point to-but it is usually not the most important. Deciding which measures are most important is no simple task. Here we take a look at some of the factors to consider and suggest a listing of priorities in green design. This sort of list can never be considered final-we look forward to an ongoing discussion of priorities that we might all learn from. Finding a Basis for Establishing Priorities Several related factors should be considered in making objective decisions about where our investments of time and money will do the most good in reducing environmental impact. First, we need an understanding of what the most significant environmental risks are. These may be global in nature, or more specific to your particular region or site. Prioritizing these risks is difficult because often they occur in unrelated fields, with no way to make direct comparisons. Which is worse, the release of toxic waste, destruction of an endangered species' habitat, or stratospheric ozone depletion? Interestingly, scientists often come up with very different priority rankings than the general public on these issues (see box). The second critical factor is an understanding of how our buildings contribute to these risks, and how significantly the measures we adopt can help the situation. We may decide, for example, that ozone depletion, a global problem, is more important than the survival of a particular bird species. But if a building project we're working on could eliminate the last remaining habitat of that species-a major contribution to its demise-that's probably a higher priority than reducing our use of HCFCs, which are contributing incrementally to ozone layer damage. The third factor has to do with the specific opportunities presented by each individual project. On some projects one can dramatically affect a building's performance in one particular area with very little investment, while addressing other impacts might prove very expensive and only minimally effective. Energy performance, for example, can sometimes be improved by simply adjusting a building's orientation, while using a recycled-content floor tile might increase cost significantly for relatively little gain. Finally, we have to consider the available resources and agenda of the client. There are often measures that can be taken at no additional cost-some may even save money-to reduce environmental impacts. Implementing such measures should be a "no-brainer." Other measures might increase the first cost of a building, but save money over time. How far we can go with such measures, in length of payback and size of initial investment, depends a great deal on the resources and willingness of the client. In some cases a third party can be found to finance such measures, and share in their savings. There are also measures that are important environmentally but don't offer the building owner any direct financial reward. Pursuing these strategies depends on the client's good will, environmental commitment, and interest in some of the less tangible benefits that may result, such as good public relations. Given all these factors to consider, deciding which environmental goals to pursue on a given project might seem overwhelming. To provide a more concrete starting point, we've come up with a list-EBN's priority ranking of measures to reduce the environmental impact of buildings. Clearly the order is arguable, and for specific projects and climatic regions a different order will apply. All the measures listed below are important, and one should definitely implement any that are feasible within the constraints of a particular project. EBN's Priority List for Sustainable Building This list-a builder's dozen-reflects our sense of where you might look to get the most bang for your buck. Each item is followed by a few sample strategies for implementation, and a discussion of the likely cost implications. #1. Save Energy-Design and build energy-efficient buildings. The ongoing energy use is probably the single greatest environmental impact of a building, so designing buildings for low energy use should be our number one priority. Decisions made during the design and construction of a building will go on affecting the environmental performance of that building for decades to come-perhaps even centuries-through energy consumption. An integrated design approach can often take advantage of energy savings that become feasible when the interaction between separate building elements, such as windows, lighting, and mechanical systems, are considered. * In buildings with skin-dominated energy loads, incorporate high levels of insulation and high-performance windows, and make buildings as airtight as possible. * Minimize cooling loads through careful building design, glazing selection, lighting design, and landscaping. * Utilize renewable energy resources to meet energy demand. * Install energy-efficient mechanical equipment, lighting, and appliances. Likely to increase first cost, but significant savings in operating cost can often be achieved. Reduced heating and cooling loads may also reduce first cost of HVAC equipment, helping justify the expense. #2. Recycle Buildings-Utilize existing buildings and infrastructure instead of developing open space. Existing buildings often contain a wealth of material and cultural resources, and contribute to a sense of place. In some cases the workmanship and quality of materials that has gone into them is almost impossible to replicate today, making the restoration all the more valuable. * Do not ignore priority #1, above. When restoring or renovating buildings, maximize energy efficiency. * Handle any hazardous materials appropriately (lead paint, asbestos, etc.). Usually-but not always-less expensive than building new. These projects can be difficult to budget. #3. Create Community-Design communities to reduce dependence on the automobile and to foster a sense of community. To reduce environmental impacts, we must address transportation. Even the most energy-efficient, state-of-the-art passive solar house will carry a big environmental burden if its occupants have to get in a car each morning and commute 20 miles to work. Since the 1940s, zoning and land-use planning have, in general, been impediments to, rather than supporters of, responsible transportation patterns. Effective land-use planning can also help to foster strong communities. * Design communities that provide access to public transit, pedestrian corridors, and bicycle paths. * Work to change zoning to permit mixed-use development so homeowners can walk to the store or to work. * Incorporate home offices into houses to permit "telecommuting." * Site buildings to enhance the public space around them and maximize pedestrian access. Smaller and shorter roads, services lines and storm sewers should reduce costs. Obtaining zoning variances can be time-consuming. #4. Reduce Material Use-Optimize design to make use of smaller spaces and utilize materials efficiently. Smaller is better relative to the environment, and no matter what the materials, using less is almost always preferable-as long as the durability or structural integrity of a building is not compromised. Reducing the surface area of a building will reduce energy consumption. Reducing waste both helps the environment and reduces cost. * Reduce the overall building footprint and use the space more efficiently. * Simplify the building geometry to save energy and materials. * Design building dimensions to optimize material use and reduce cut-off waste. For example, design buildings on a 2' or 4' (600 mm or 1,200 mm) module. With light-frame construction, use 24"-on-center framing and headers sized to each opening. Some additional design time may be needed, but overall, this strategy should save money, particularly with larger projects and multiple-building developments. Increasingly, we need to consider not only the cost of buying materials, but also the cost of disposing of what's left over-by reducing waste we save both ways. A 4x10 (1,200 mm by 3,000 mm) sheet of 5é8" (15 mm) drywall, for example, which costs about $8 to buy, now costs more than $4 to landfill in some areas! #5. Protect and Enhance the Site-Preserve or restore local ecosystems and biodiversity. In fragile ecosystems or ecologically significant environments, such as old-growth forests or remnant stands of native prairie, this might be the highest priority. * Protect wetlands and other ecologically important areas on a parcel of land to be developed-on some sites you should reevaluate whether development should be carried out. * On land that has been ecologically damaged, work to reintroduce native species. * Protect trees and topsoil during construction. * Avoid pesticide use-provide construction detailing that minimizes the need for pesticide treatments. * With on-site wastewater systems, provide responsible treatment to minimize groundwater pollution-there are several innovative new wastewater treatment systems that do a better job at nutrient removal than conventional septic systems. Some of these measures cost less than standard practice, others cost more. Maintenance costs with natural landscaping are often much less than for conventional practice. #6. Select Low-impact Materials-Specify low-environmental impact, resource-efficient materials. Most-but not all-of the environmental impacts associated with building materials have already occurred by the time the materials are installed. Raw materials have been extracted from the ground or harvested from forests; pollutants have been emitted during manufacture; and energy has been invested throughout production. Some materials, such as those containing ozone-depleting HCFCs and VOCs, continue emitting pollutants during use. And some materials have significant environmental impacts associated with disposal. * Avoid materials that generate a lot of pollution (VOCs, HCFCs, etc.) during manufacture or use. * Specify materials with low embodied energy (the energy used in resource extraction, manufacturing, and shipping). * Specify materials produced from waste or recycled materials. * Specify materials salvaged from other uses. * Avoid materials that unduly deplete limited natural resources, such as old-growth timber. * Avoid materials made from toxic or hazardous constituents (benzene, arsenic, etc.). Some resource-efficient products are available at no extra charge; others may cost more. Installation may differ from standard practice, raising labor cost if installer is unfamiliar with a product. #7. Maximize Longevity-Design for durability and adaptability. The longer a building lasts, the longer the period of time over which the environmental impacts from building it can be amortized. Designing and building a structure that will last a long time necessitates addressing how that building can be modified to satisfy changing needs. * Specify durable materials-this is usually even more important than selecting low-embodied-energy materials. * Assemble the materials to prevent premature decay. * Design for easy maintenance and replacement of less durable components. * Design for adaptability-particularly with commercial buildings. * Allocate an appropriate percentage of building funds for ongoing maintenance and improvements. * Consider aesthetics during design, and whether a particular style is likely to remain popular-the idea of "timeless architecture." Though not necessarily more expensive in all cases, building for durability usually does require a larger initial investment. Preventative maintenance also requires ongoing investment, though it is generally cheaper over the long term than repairs due to insufficient maintenance. #8. Save Water-Design buildings and landscapes that are water-efficient. This is largely a regional issue. In some parts of the country, reducing water use is much higher on the priority list. * Install water-efficient plumbing fixtures and appliances. * Collect and use rainwater. * Provide low-water-use landscaping (xeriscaping). * Separate and use graywater for landscape irrigation where codes permit. * Provide for groundwater recharge through effective stormwater infiltration designs. Most of these measures will add to the cost of a project. Some savings in lower water and sewage bills and longevity of on-site septic systems can offset the additional costs. Designs that promote stormwater infiltration are usually less expensive than storm sewers. #9. Make the Building Healthy-Provide a safe and comfortable indoor environment. Though some people tend separate the indoor environment from the outdoor environment, the two are integrally related, and the health of the building occupants should be ensured in any "sustainable" building. With many clients, this is the issue that first generates interest in broader concerns of environmentally sustainable building. * Design air distribution systems for easy cleaning and maintenance. * Avoid mechanical equipment that could introduce combustion gases into the building. * Avoid materials with high rates of VOC offgassing such as standard particleboard, some carpets and adhesives, and certain paints. * Control moisture to minimize mold and mildew. * Introduce daylight to as many spaces as possible. * Provide continuous ventilation in all occupied buildings. In cold climates, heat-recovery ventilation reduces the energy penalty of ventilation. * Give occupants some control of their environment with features like operable windows, task lighting, and temperature controls. Most of these measures will increase construction costs, but they often are easily justified based on the increased health, well-being, and productivity of building occupants. Failure to pursue these measures can lead to expensive "sick-building" lawsuits. #10. Minimize C&D Waste-Return, reuse, and recycle job-site waste and practice environmental-ism in your business. For more and more materials, sorting and recycling job-site waste is paying off economically, and it can certainly generate a good public image. * Sort construction and demolition waste for recycling. * Donate reusable materials to nonprofit or other community groups where they can be used to build or improve housing stock. Additional labor to sort and recycle waste is often offset by the savings in disposal costs, though these vary by region. Sorted material can sometimes be sold for a profit. #11. Green Up Your Business-Minimize the environmental impact of your own business practices, and spread the word. In addition to creating buildings with low environmental impact, you should practice environmentalism in your own business, thus serving as a model for other design or construction firms. * Purchase fuel-efficient company vehicles and promote use of public transportation and carpooling by employees. * Use recycled paper in your office and recycle wastes generated in your office. * Use the design process to educate clients, colleague, subcontractors, and the general public about the environmental impacts of buildings and how they can be mitigated. Carpooling and public transportation can save money for employees, while reducing the number of parking spaces the business must provide. Recycled paper, for most applications, is only slightly more expensive than virgin. Final Thoughts In deciding which measures to pursue on specific projects, consider the relative benefits of the different measures. You might begin by customizing the list for your region. In an arid climate, for example, water conservation would go near the top, while in a city prone to smog inversions, transportation alternatives might be the most important. Then refer to your list as you consider each project, and identify the areas where you can do the most for the environment. Pick the low-hanging fruit first, and go after the tougher issues as time and resources allow. Return to buildings you've completed to see which systems are working and which aren't, and how occupants have modified your work to fit their needs. When possible, use your buildings to strengthen the link between occupants and the global environment through education and direct interaction. Finally, if you are incorporating environmental features into your work, take advantage of that fact in your marketing efforts. We hope that this ranking will serve to inspire others who regularly think about environmental impacts of building to offer their opinions. Like most lists and categories, this list serves a purpose but also carries the risk of compartmentalizing the design and construction process. Often the most significant opportunities for benefiting the environment come from a careful integration of the design, taking advantage of synergies between building elements. The most elegant design solutions-those that reduce complexity while solving multiple problems-won't be found by considering each item on this list in isolation. In the next few issues of EBN we hope to include letters from readers on this important question: Where should we focus our greatest effort in reducing the environmental impact of our buildings? Let us know your thoughts. - Alex Wilson and Nadav Malin Copyright 1996-1998, Environmental Building News Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge Street, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 11 12:24:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA22397 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:24:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06749; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:22:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:18:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06301 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:18:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06297 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:18:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-32.netmeg.net [208.139.83.95]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA03065 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:18:12 -0500 Message-ID: <367153FA.6FE110EA@swinter.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:18:53 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Dimmable Compact FL in recessed fixtures Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5263 Hello! We would like to know if anyone has found any usable combination of a Dimmable Compact Fluorescent Light and a recessed can light fixture? I would like manufactures' name and if possible model #/product name etc.. The problem appears that Techna Bright's Springlamp and Durotest's Spiralux do not fit into a number of cans because the ballast (base) is wider than the inside area of the can where it screws in and/or the lamp is longer than the recessed fixture and sticks out at the end. Thank you all. Debra Lombard deblombard@swinter.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 11 12:28:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA22457 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:28:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07142; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:25:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:22:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06738 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:21:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06733 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:21:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-32.netmeg.net [208.139.83.95]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA03599 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:22:09 -0500 Message-ID: <367154E7.7D019793@swinter.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 12:22:49 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: US Electric rates Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5264 Hello again! Does anyone know of a good web site or publication for comparative electric rates in $/KWH for various cities around the US? Has anyone seen recent data for this? Thanks, Debra Lombard deblombard@swinter.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 11 14:31:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA25113 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:31:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14620; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:22:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13915 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:22:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from highway61.together.net (highway61.together.net [204.97.123.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13910 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:22:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-198-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.198]) by highway61.together.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA20069; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:23:33 -0500 Message-ID: <367170EE.248D31E3@together.net> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:22:22 -0500 From: Thomas Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Debra Lombard CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: US Electric rates References: <367154E7.7D019793@swinter.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5265 Energy User News magazine publishes commercial electric and nat gas rates for many states /cities in the US. Not sure if the web site has the data...... but you can give it a try at: http://www.energyusernews.com/ Tom Anderson Debra Lombard wrote: > Hello again! > > Does anyone know of a good web site or publication for comparative > electric rates in $/KWH for various cities around the US? Has anyone > seen recent data for this? > > Thanks, > Debra Lombard > deblombard@swinter.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 11 15:52:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA27281 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:52:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA19001; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:50:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:46:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18585 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:46:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18561 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:45:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.3.220.110]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3149400 ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:46:27 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981211153949.006983ac@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 15:39:49 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: Heat Pumps In-Reply-To: <199812100700.CAA02727@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5266 Malcolm Scott wrote: >However I found this statement on the Geothermal heat pump consortium >web site: "They are an average of 48% more efficient than the best gas >furnaces on a source fuel basis" I am having difficulty interpreting >this. It sounds good but I am not really sure? Assuming a COP of 4 for a groundsource heat pump and a system efficiency of 30% for the production of electricity. The overall system efficiency should be 120%. The best gas furnaces are 96% efficient. Looks like about 25% better efficiency according to my calculations. Now take into account that electricity is often 3 to 10 times more expensive than natural gas and the efficiency differential does not produce the economics needed for a reasonable payback. Another environmental consideration not mentioned yet is that groundsource heat pumps use an ozone depleting refrigerant (R22). In regards to the relative environmental impacts of gas vs electricity, one EPA study not withstanding, I still believe that electricity has far greater environmental impacts than natural gas. According to the average figures that I have seen, electricity produces about 6.12 lbs of CO2/kWh (source energy) while natural gas produces about 11.6 lbs of CO2/therm. Taking into account both system and equipment efficiency and converting to BTUs electricity would produce about 3.7 times more CO2 than natural gas per equivalent unit of energy. Additional calculations yeilded the following results; electricity (using a groundsource heat pump) produces 2400 times more SO2, 21 times more NOx, and 160 times more particulates. I used the following formula: lbs of pollutant (source)/unit of fuel -------------------------------------- divided by equipment efficiency = lbs of pollutant/BTU BTU (site)/unit of fuel My source of information on pollutants per unit of energy was the Alliance to Save Energy paper prepared by Bion Howard. Unless my figures are inaccurate or I have made a major error I can't see where groundsource heat pumps even come close. I would also (echoing the comments of Tom Anderson) recommend that you take the information from the geothermal heat pump consortium with a grain of salt. According to their website they are funded 2/3 from electric utilities and 1/3 from DOE/EPA. There expressed purpose is to promote the technology for the purposes of increasing its market share. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 11 17:12:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA29617 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:12:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23539; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:10:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:06:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23117 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:06:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from seahorse.epud.net (root@seahorse.epud.net [205.240.25.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23113 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 17:06:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([209.102.14.125]) by seahorse.epud.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA17103 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 13:57:44 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199812112157.NAA17103@seahorse.epud.net> From: "Dean Still" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: "Mass and glass" analysis Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:13:25 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5267 Thanks Bion and others for great references to design programs dealing with thermal mass, etc. Please help me out! In these programs, what percentage of the heat from sunlight ends up stored in a cement floor by day's end? Seems to me that Mazria, Anderson, etc. used very high percentages in their figuring. But in our studies, we end up with much lower percentages even in floors painted black. Thanks, Dean Still Aprovecho Research Center ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 11 18:33:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA00981 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:33:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA27655; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:30:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:26:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27301 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:26:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from priv-edtnps04-hme0.telusplanet.net (edtnps04.telusplanet.net [198.161.157.104]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27296 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:26:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:26:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199812112326.SAA27296@solstice.crest.org> Received: from LOCALNAME ([209.115.139.235]) by priv-edtnps04-hme0.telusplanet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.1 release 220 ID# 0-51631U125000L125000S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Fri, 11 Dec 1998 16:26:31 -0700 X-Sender: gleclair@mail.telusplanet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: gleclair@mail.telusplanet.net (Gilles Leclair) Subject: Re: GBlist: The price of oil Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5268 Can we say for sure that there even was an 'oil crisis'? There's a cynical side of myself that tells me it was an 'arranged' crisis. Let's give the oil companies a bit of credit. For one, even back in the seventies I'm sure they had the means to forecast well ahead of time how much oil was available and how long it would last. In fact, isn't it a bit naive to assume they DIDN'T know there would be a shortage? Secondly, they are also clever enough to create a 'shortage' by collusion. I'm sure they had their marketers and monied interests study this one carefully. After all, oil is a pretty important commodity, something people just couldn't stop buying overnight. When competing technologies started to emerge did you notice how quickly the price dropped? OK folks, false alarm we have plenty for everyone. Let them try and cry shortage today. Add to this equation a few very big banks looking for investments, a few Mid-East countries with oodles of oil to extract and you have a formula for a contrived profit making mechanism. I'll stop there since we're already beyond the realm of green building. Merry Christmas >Friends, > >The older I get, the more I believe in that old mantra of my formative years: >Question Everything. I've leaned that most important to any learning is to >question my own strongly held assumptions. > >Watching our new little kitten chasing her own tail around the kitchen this >morning, I was reflecting on how much of my own life has been spent on equally >valuable activity. Kind of fun, but pretty nutty. > >We in the environmental movement have been curiously silent on the reasons we >have been proven so wrong in our fundamental driving assumption of twenty >years ago. Back when Jimmy Carter was president, many authors and professors >made their reputations predicting that, by today, the world would be plumb out >of oil. Either chaos, war and famine or sustainable Nirvana should have >replaced the oil and auto based economy by now. Many of us based our life's >work on creating sustainable Nirvana as an alternative to the inevitable chaos >if we didn't succeed. > >Well, we've had some successes to be sure. The very existence of our movement >as green builders is a great example. Photovoltaics are approaching economic >viability. But in general things haven't changed much. > >Perhaps most significantly, the tone of environmentalism is still generally >one of opposing impending threats rather than creating and celebrating >positive goals. We're still generally locked into a political agenda based on >fear and negativism. We're just scared of different boogeymen today. > >Today the "developed world" is full of more gas guzzling oversized vehicles >than ever before. Homes are larger than ever before and consume excessive >resources, more and more products are built from petroleum based products. > >The dilemma that has proven our old predictions so wrong: The price of oil, in >constant dollars, is the lowest it has ever been. Markets are glutted with the >stuff. The oil industry and oil exporting countries are crying poverty. > >Oil was supposed to be a disappearing precious commodity by now. What's going >on? > >Why were we so wrong in our predictions? Which of the crises we are predicting >today are blown out of proportion or merely convenient myths to support our >comfortable world views? How should we be altering our rhetoric? How should we >be altering our world views? How can we change the politics of >environmentalism and sustainability from an agenda based on fear to an agenda >based on opportunity. > >Ah, December. Time to slow down a little and stir up the green builder list >again. > >Enjoy, Fred >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________ Gilles Leclair gleclair@telusplanet.net Ph. (403) 732-4749 :) ----------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 12 09:56:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09496 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19892; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:54:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:48:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19190 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:47:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19170; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 09:47:47 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ507106; Sat, 12 Dec 98 07:47:45 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA95150; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 07:47:19 -0700 Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 07:47:18 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver Subject: GBlist: Natural Gas explosions Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5269 I understand that there were 2 major disasters yesterday on the above, one is the US and the other in Brazil. Has anyone got any news references on these? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 12 20:43:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA15256 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:43:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA10706; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:39:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:35:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10494 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:35:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [209.210.78.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10490 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 20:35:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from nistone (usr12.cwo.com [207.173.11.12]) by mail.cwo.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA06560 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:39:46 -0800 Message-ID: <00bb01be2638$f0fba400$230badcf@nistone> Reply-To: "Nehemiah I. Stone" From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #406 Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 17:28:41 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5270 You wrote: "Subject: Re: GBlist: "Mass and glass" analysis Thanks Bion and others for great references to design programs dealing with thermal mass, etc. Please help me out! In these programs, what percentage of the heat from sunlight ends up stored in a cement floor by day's end? Seems to me that Mazria, Anderson, etc. used very high percentages in their figuring. But in our studies, we end up with much lower percentages even in floors painted black. Thanks, Dean Still Aprovecho Research Center" I'm not sure what all the reasons are but when we were analyzing the impact of the California Building Energy Efficiency standards (back in 1990-92), we found that in the real world, there is less solar gain than any model seems to predict. At first we called it the "dust factor," assuming that less solar energy actually got into the buildng through the glazing and opaque envelop. But even that didn't explain it all. Then we adjusted for the fact that glass SC is given assuming that the light is "normal" (perpendicular) to the glass. Obviously, even if that is EVER true for a window in a house, it is only true for a moment during the day and not true for most other windows. Yet even accounting for that did not make enough difference. Unless someone out there who is very smart, experienced with this issue is keeping quiet, then I don't think "we" know why you experience the effect you mentioned, but it is an effect documented elsewhere. Try asking Jon Leber at the California Energy Commission (I no onger work there, or I would). Good luck, Nehemiah ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 12 23:29:49 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA16252 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:29:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14581; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:25:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:22:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA14319 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:21:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA14307; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:21:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA14249; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 22:19:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md16-45.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.45) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma014241; Sat Dec 12 22:19:30 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981212231702.00713070@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:17:08 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Merry XMAS from Bill Gates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5271 **** not directly on topic but hopefully useful information **** A Merry Win98 XMAS from Bill Gates ----------------------------------------------------------------------- cf: T h e I n t e r n e t T o u r B u s ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The Internet Tourbus - U.S. Library of Congress ISSN #1094-2238 Copyright 1995-98, Rankin & Crispen - All rights reserved Archives on the Web at http://www.TOURBUS.com Join: Send SUBSCRIBE TOURBUS Your Name to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.AOL.COM remailed non-profit use -- Fed. Library Act. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Win 98 Y2K Issues !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As you have probably heard by now, Microsoft has discovered some year 2000 "issues" in their Windows 98 operating system. Microsoft has created a free "Windows 98 Year 2000 Update" to correct these issues. If you are a Windows 98 user and want to either download the Y2K update over the Internet or order the update on a free CD-ROM from Microsoft, launch Windows Update in your Windows 98 machine by going to Start --> Settings --> Windows Update. Most of the press releases I have seen about the Windows 98 Y2K issues say that you can also order a free CD-ROM of the update on the Windows Update Web site at What the press releases don't tell you is that this Web page (at least on my computer) just tells you to "[p]lease start the Windows Update service from the link on your Start menu." Of course, you can bypass all of this mess and just order a copy of the free CD-ROM directly from Microsoft >>>>>>>>>>> by calling 1-800-363-2896 <<<<<<<<< Good luck getting through! To read more about the Win98 Y2K problem, visit Microsoft's highlights page or CNET's recent news story at ------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 13 00:09:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA16662 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 00:09:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15703; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 00:05:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Dec 1998 00:01:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA15459 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 00:01:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15455 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 00:01:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id XAA16853; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:00:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md16-45.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.45) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma016843; Sat Dec 12 23:00:30 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981212235804.0071a158@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 23:58:08 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: "Mass and glass" analysis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5272 (More on) "Mass and glass" analysis -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dean Still asked: "what percentage of the heat from sunlight ends up stored in a cement [concrete] floor by day's end;" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ... sorry, the answer to your question is a weaseling one > it depends < but there is hope... Mazria, "Passive Solar Handbook (sic)" was a rules of thumb document which in my mind is a true classic since there is good evidence from monitored data that the resulting homes worked fairly well except [some in the Southwest that were too much the "thermal engine"] when not enough thought was placed on the overall balance between all the whole-building climate specific factors we can address today. The balance achieved (mainly) between conservation, air-tightness, glass, mass, architecture, site and climate -- for the occupants and in consideration of the environment -- is why I still have to use computer tools when I work on any new design for a builder or architect. I am just not smart enough to make all the right "art" and engineering connections happen in my head. Plus, I banged my cranium on over sizing glass / under massing in an early '70s project, so am real careful... not to melt anyone's candles while they go on vacation... One good reference on this whole matter of heat capacity, how much is correct for a building (in context of climate, site, system type, etc.), is the ASHRAE "Red Book" _Passive Solar Heating Analysis_ (1986+ American Soc. Heating Refrig. & AC Engineers, Atlanta GA USA ) and the several supplements. Especially useful is Supplement One; 1987 Nov., developed by Dr. Robert Jones (et.al) now of Arizona State U. Titled: "Thermal Mass Effects and Additional SLR Correlations," it has a pretty complete process discussion on mass, diurnal heat capacity and a _Basic_ program listing of the DHC - diurnal heat capacity - calculator by Dr. Doug Balcomb (developer of Energy-10). (This program works too, I have coded it in MS Dos Basic ... now let's see where is that old 5 1/4 diskette....) The bottom line is to "learn" how the building accepts transmitted solar heat and distributes it to surfaces either: * in direct sun, * those obtaining reflected light, and * those getting heat through (tertiary) convection. The mass(s) in the space are described, and calculations can be made to determine the effectiveness of heat storage and release in a 24-hour "diurnal" period. This results in predictions of indoor temperatures and "swings" so one may comment on comfort or adjust heat capacity if T-swings are too low / too high. This diurnal period is shown to be the most effective for comfort conditioning and saving energy. In most US climates there are seldom more than 3 days of continuous cloud cover. Even if longer cloud roils in effective energy efficiency design ( remember "its the whole building #&%^@" ) should be able to carry over a well designed residence or light commercial structure with acceptable auxiliary loads even under design conditions. The same should be accomplished under cooling design conditions, since a proper "whole building" design should not add a big chunk of A/C demand to get the passive heating done! Big clumps of mass and so called long-term storage schemes -- especially big concentrated hybrid rock bins -- have not been shown, either mathematically or through field monitoring, to be very effective compared to well distributed heat capacity materials like block, brick or even double-thick dry-wall, that of proper (not excessive) thickness. Also mass that doubles (or triples) functionality as structural components and aesthetic diversity on the buildings interior or exterior can reduce net costs of adding proper heat storage for climate specific higher performance. That is one reason I am a strong proponent of the "air-core" system -- a more effective floor slab saves construction costs compared to adding some other materials. ( see: ASME paper ) I know this is not a direct answer to the question, but one thing is certain: too much mass is sometimes worse than none especially if carelessly deployed in a building with glass and conservation measures that are not "right sized" by the designer or their energy engineer... PS -->> please send me a copy of the studies you cited in your response << >> looking at the Mazria rules of thumb... fascinating...<< >----------- >Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 14:13:25 -0800 >From: "Dean Still" >Subject: Re: GBlist: "Mass and glass" analysis >In these programs, what percentage of the heat from sunlight ends up stored >in a cement floor by day's end? > >Seems to me that Mazria, Anderson, etc. used very high percentages in their >figuring. But in our studies, we end up with much lower percentages even in >floors painted black. > >Thanks, > >Dean Still >Aprovecho Research Center | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 13 01:11:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA17088 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:11:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA17539; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:07:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:03:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA17236 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:03:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA17232 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:03:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id AAA20684 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 00:03:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md16-45.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.45) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma020678; Sun Dec 13 00:02:57 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981213010033.0071a158@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:00:35 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Oil price / tilting windmills Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5273 Gilles -- Interesting line of reasoning...you will get a barrel of comments. --------- One 175mm rant, incoming.... I don't usually do this but here goes: "Crisis" is a relative term. We are burning the petrochemical stores of our planetary spacecraft at an alarming rate, perhaps in fact because of the cleverness of the oil companies. They must be clever if they have billions in cash waiting on the side lines to buy out each other... That cash came out of our wallets and their huge tax breaks. Regardless of the fluctuations of developing nation's economies, who's bright ambitious and gradually better educated citizens of course see our crazy life style on their new TV, and say to themselves (in 368 languages) say, I want _too much is just enough_ for our life style also so things will be nice for me and my family too, so don't tell me Mr Gringo, etc. that I can't have it because your comfortable country has too much emissions... _____________________________________________________________________________ [Hey Beavis, heh heh heh, like the American Dream is cool, yah, heh heh heh] [shut up Butthead, I gotta ah duh yah, like stop for gas again heh heh heh] [heh heh duh yeah, like duh your big SUV really does suck, heh heh heh... ] _____________________________________________________________________________ It will be too bad if my son (now 10 who statistically should live another 85 years) or 8 billion others (by 2080+) will not have affordable access to pharmaceuticals -- an industry now absolutely hooked on petrochemical feedstocks -- because we burned up all the oil in our Lincoln Navigators, or all the natural gas "as a transitional fuel" to solar, wind and biomass because we either were too cheap, lazy, or horsed around arguing about dumb stuff like impeachment instead of looking at the continued slippage of our environment into a diseased state... Let's keep on giving _our_ Tax $billions (like 35:1 subsides for oil, coal, gas and nukekiller energy compared to efficiency and renewable's; cf. Koplow and Bradfield, Alliance to Save Energy 1991) to promote pollution, allow depletion, and blow off environmental exernalities due from giant corporations who do not give one huge rodents' posterior for the health of anything beyond reporting their next earnings on Wall Street. Corporate pork, green-wash and greed is mainline 90's chic despite all the glowing enviro-rhetoric... I also wonder (and have looked at...) if once all the oil is burned off quick enough during our massive "climate experiment," whether a long cycle natural gradual cooling progression discussed by prominent climatologists well up into the late 1970's early 1980's, retrogrades into the next ice age to very quickly reverse the march of global temperatures -- turing Houston into a major wheat producing area while Minneapolis -> Toronto becomes uninhabitable? Think about it: * burn off all the fossil fuels quickly (@ $11 BBL), make lot's of $$ * fossil fuels are exhausted, world economies crash, no money left to build needed renewable energy infrastructure (O G a crisis!) * reduction in mass of pollutants (particulate, aerosols, HC, NOx, SOx) in atmosphere that have changed the current energy balance * short term -- the blanket is tossed off the cozy bed of life ... * schazzam a new Crisis (actually not so, many of us remember the impending gloom and doom of the coming ice age discussed in 60's) new worries include mainly keeping warm and finding food * broke, cold and tired people migrate to southern cities, cut down all the trees and demolish wood frame homes for firewood * civil unrest creates a world spiral of failing governments and regional terrorism * a new dark ages grips the tiny blue marble... because we were lazy, comfortable, credit card flashing, consumption happy morons... ---------------- >> has our man-made global warming simply been an overly thick down comforter placed temporarily within the atmosphere of a cooling planet? When I run a crude PC climate model here (based on an aging NCAR download that I hacked around with ...) with the parameters for 90% exhaustion of fossil fuel emissions by 2060, I get a crash of about 3 to 4 deg. C in global temperatures and the onset of a "little ice age" pretty quick like in 10 years. My wife says I need to "get a life and work on the house or chop wood or something" when I rush downstairs with such results.... then she reminds me, "isn't that the same model that what's his face Sunuunu (sic) in the Bush White house was playing with and said global warming was a bunch of BS? hmm, time for a Margarita... ----------------------------- Finally, to completely digress and its getting late on Sat. night (yeah I really _do_ need to get a life but this clearly whips what's on TV...) Last night I dreamed humanoid aliens quietly locked into a geosynchronous orbit around the third planet from a warm and stable sun in the outer fringes of an average galaxy, then began laughing and placing wagers on the duration of the disease outbreak occurring on the blue ball below. The winner would get to push the button to terra form the whole mess for upcoming colonization... then the dog started barking and I woke up thinking gee maybe aliens haven't actually contacted us because they are too disgusted at the mess we've made... heh heh heh like, shut up Bion and go take a warm shower...heh heh heh -------- >Date: Fri, 11 Dec 1998 18:26:35 -0500 (EST) >From: gleclair@mail.telusplanet.net (Gilles Leclair) >Subject: Re: GBlist: The price of oil > >Can we say for sure that there even was an 'oil crisis'? There's a cynical >side of myself that tells me it was an 'arranged' crisis. Let's give the oil >companies a bit of credit. For one, even back in the seventies I'm sure they >had the means to forecast well ahead of time how much oil was available and >how long it would last. In fact, isn't it a bit naive to assume they DIDN'T >know there would be a shortage? >Secondly, they are also clever enough to create a 'shortage' by collusion. >I'm sure they had their marketers and monied interests study this one >carefully. After all, oil is a pretty important commodity, something people >just couldn't stop buying overnight. When competing technologies started to >emerge did you notice how quickly the price dropped? OK folks, false alarm >we have plenty for everyone. Let them try and cry shortage today. >Add to this equation a few very big banks looking for investments, a few >Mid-East countries with oodles of oil to extract and you have a formula for >a contrived profit making mechanism. I'll stop there since we're already >beyond the realm of green building. ------- Opinions expressed above are solely those of the author(s) and do not reflect the positions, policies or opinions of any clients past or present of the author(s), nor was any review or approval of the aforementioned comments requested or denied. (bdh) ------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 13 02:00:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA17560 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 02:00:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA19007; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:56:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:52:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA18729 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:52:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA18725 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 01:52:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (st-ppp28.hevanet.com [198.5.254.88]) by hevanet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA13419; Sat, 12 Dec 1998 22:52:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36736437.56AEFF97@hevanet.com> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 22:54:03 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Debra Lombard , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Dimmable Compact FL in recessed fixtures References: <367153FA.6FE110EA@swinter.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5274 Hi, Debra-- Check out the web sites called Inter.Light at www.light-link.com and Northwest Lighting Online at www.northwestlighting.com. Best, Mike Debra Lombard wrote: > Hello! > > We would like to know if anyone has found any usable combination of a > Dimmable Compact Fluorescent Light and a recessed can light fixture? I > would like manufactures' name and if possible model #/product name etc.. > > The problem appears that Techna Bright's Springlamp and Durotest's > Spiralux do not fit into a number of cans because the ballast (base) is > wider than the inside area of the can where it screws in and/or the lamp > is longer than the recessed fixture and sticks out at the end. > > Thank you all. > Debra Lombard > deblombard@swinter.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 13 11:41:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20293 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:40:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01457; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:38:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:33:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01165 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:33:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01161 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:33:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.102.94]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA8334 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:36:50 +0000 Message-ID: <3673EC1F.B2526DBC@which.net> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 16:32:31 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Re: Heat Pumps X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5275 Marcus Sheffer wrote: Assuming a COP of 4 for a groundsource heat pump and a system efficiency of 30% for the production of electricity. The overall system efficiency should be 120%. The best gas furnaces are 96% efficient. Looks like about 25% better efficiency according to my calculations. Now take into account that electricity is often 3 to 10 times more expensive than natural gas and the efficiency differential does not produce the economics needed for a reasonable payback. ---------- Yes, although I don't believe many furnaces operate at an average as high as 96%, and as you show, it is the coal burning power generators that get in the way of electrically driven heat pumps being environmentally friendly. However I found these figures on a Geoexchange sample homes page: ------- Operating Cost Comparison for 3,067-ft2 Spec House Annual Heating only Cost GeoExchange System $64 Air-Source Heat Pump $218 Gas Furnace/ Electric Air Conditioner $314 Costs above are based on an electric rate of $0.046 cents/kWh, a natural gas rate of $0.55/therm. The GeoExchange system has a heating Coefficient of Performance (COP) of 3.5 ------ These are for heating only of a house. My maths tells me that at the extraordinary low rate of $0.046/kWhr for electricity and COP 3.5, 64/0.046*3.5, $64 buys 4870 kWhrs of heat energy. At $0.019/kWhr for gas($0.55/29.3) and boiler effeciency of 90%, 314/0.019*0.9, $314 buys 14874 kWhrs of heat energy. How can both of these do the same job? I am assuming the electric air conditioner doesn't play any part in the heating. Have I misunderstood something? Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 13 12:17:12 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20674 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:17:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02793; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:14:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:10:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02537 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:10:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02532 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:10:33 -0500 (EST) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: from ANovelli@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id VSKAa05320 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:09:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 12:09:55 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: The price of oil Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5276 If I may chime in... on the Bioenergy list these discussions go 'round and 'round. My takes on the whole issue are these: 1. We have surely been the victim of both artificial price increases, as well as decreases, as we are currently. 2. The current estimates on gasoline cost figuring all 'externalities' (e.g., subsidy, tax breaks, defense, etc.) put the real cost of gasoline at $15.14/gallon. I will relay sources to anyone interested (have to dig 'em up). 3. We have mined about 50% of the available fossil fuel reserves since the dawn of the industrial revolution. We will, according to the best estimates I've seen, and assuming current trends, exhaust these resources within a period between 7-20 years, and certainly within the current generation. 4. #3 depends on the fact that we have mined the most accessible, and the highest quality reserves. While certain deposits of things like liquid methane hold great promise in volume, they also correspond to enormous ocean warming.... more likely we'll drown all current coastal regions before we get access to it. Bottom line is that the remaining reserves (like groundwater) are or progressively lower quality, and are harder to extract...regardless of the blips we see in oil prices and political maneuvering with current stockpiles. Refining and extraction costs will increase as reserves are depleted, and with increasing demand, it is hard not to imagine the curves crossing where subsidy becomes more expensive than can be managed. If we were using less petrochemical based products in the first place we would have seen this already. My guess is we'll see incremental increases towards a doubling or tripling of fuel prices in the next 5-7 years.... kind of tracking the ramp up to production of electric vehicles it seems.... a correlation perhaps? Best regards, Tony Novelli ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 13 21:01:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA24683 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:01:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23910; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 20:58:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Dec 1998 20:54:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA23612 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 20:54:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA23608 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 20:53:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.117] (rkd093.acadia.net [208.244.128.117]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA10745 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 20:54:11 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 20:53:09 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: The price of oil Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5277 Dear Folks, Thanks once again to Fred for asking several very good questions. On the price of oil: I'm no expert, but I think that the first oil price shock of 1973 resulted from political as much as economic reasons. OPEC had, for a brief moment, developed the political will to be a cartel. The Arab-Israeli conflict was certainly a key factor. When OPEC announced a boycott of oil sales to supporters of Israel, the physical quantity of oil in the ground didn't change. What suddenly went into short supply was confidence in an uninterrupted oil supply. More importantly, without the refineries of the Arab states, there was a physical shortage of oil-refining capacity. (That's why there were stories in the U.S. of tankers full of oil, just sitting offshore). Similarly, in 1979, with the fall of the Shah of Iran, there was a crisis of confidence in Iran as a reliable supplier of oil to the West. When there is doubt about the continued supply of a vital commodity, the price tends to spike rapidly. For example, look what happens to plywood prices after a hurricane: they rise rapidly over a huge territory, even if the physical quantity of plywood needed for repairs is small. Anyone who studies commodities or inventory control will tell you the same thing. In the United States, we took a typically mixed approach to the oil price shocks of the 70's: we began conservation efforts and simultaneously increased oil exploration, drilling and refinery-building. The result was that U.S. oil demand actually held even, or slightly decreased (depending on analysis) for a significant chunk of the 1980's, just as new oil producing facilities (North Sea, Alaska) were reaching full momentum. In the meantime, OPEC countries, encouraged by their huge incomes in the 70's, had taken on so many "modernization" efforts that the the downward pressure on oil prices in the 80's effectively ended their cartel, as each member country began to overproduce in order to maintain cash flow. I personally believe that the Gulf War furthered the pressure to overproduce, because the U.S. showed that it would be willing to use military force to protect the supply of oil. That's probably "junk" history, and it's not central to Fred's point. He asked, why did all the predictions of doom from the 70's not come to pass? Personally, I think that the basic analysis wasn't wrong, but the time frame was. There will eventually be a peak in the physical production of crude oil, with sharp, permanent price rises as production inevitably falls. I agree with Fred that those who predicted that peak to have occurred by now were wrong, but I don't think it matters. We have an exponentially-increasing appetite for oil, with a doubling time of roughly 20 years. That means that even if there is twice as much oil as the best geological estimates, that only buys us 20 additional years. So the day of reckoning is very likely to be in the next 5 to 20 years. Either way, it's not a lot of time. A resource can be limited either at the source or at the sink. In other words, the landfill might close before you run out of stuff to dump. I personally believe that the atmosphere will be the ultimate limit to the oil era, not the physical amount of oil in the ground. But the way I read Fred's question, he was asking: why do we environmentalists rely on prophecies of doom to influence people, especially when some of our prophecies are dead wrong? Why don't we rely more on positive visions? Good questions, Fred. I'm convinced that most of the changes we're going to need to make to live sustainably won't be punitive at all - they're going to be FUN. I think a sustainable human culture will be healthier, culturally richer, calmer, more just, more technologically "nifty", more spiritually fulfilling and just plain more interesting than our present culture. I think that many, many people would eagerly embrace tangible, positive examples of that alternate future. That's on good days. On bad days, I think that most of the human race is doomed, and that I'm going to spend the rest of my life Ark-building, to leave something to the few wretched survivors. What do other folks think? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 13 21:57:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA25155 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26012; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:54:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:50:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA25747 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:50:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.monumental.com (mail1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA25743 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:50:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by mail1.monumental.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02418 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:45:30 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3673EC1F.B2526DBC@which.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 21:52:04 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Heat Pumps Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5278 981213 Mr Scott: For the non-engrs on the list like me, pls clarify a few things so we can follow your figuring: Where is the 29.3 from? What do you mean "at $0.019/kwhr..." in the gas portion of your example? The costs seem low to me, since such a % difference betw gx & air hps suggests a cold climate, which the $ amts for heat costs do not suggest. Or is my nonengr ignorance in evidence? Thanks for helping me to understand your figures. I am interested in gx, but do not want to make a bad decision! jh --------- >These are for heating only of a house. My maths tells me that at the >extraordinary low rate of $0.046/kWhr for electricity and COP 3.5, >64/0.046*3.5, $64 buys 4870 kWhrs of heat energy. >At $0.019/kWhr for gas($0.55/29.3) and boiler effeciency of 90%, >314/0.019*0.9, $314 buys 14874 kWhrs of heat energy. >How can both of these do the same job? I am assuming the electric air >conditioner doesn't play any part in the heating. Have I misunderstood >something? > >Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 13 23:07:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA25940 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:07:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA28768; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:04:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:00:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA28535 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:00:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-gateway.csgrp.com (smtp-gateway.csgrp.com [207.31.245.98]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA28531 for ; Sun, 13 Dec 1998 23:00:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199812140400.XAA28531@solstice.crest.org> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 22:57 -0500 From: "John Livermore" To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: The Price of Oil Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5279 >Oil was supposed to be a disappearing precious commodity by now. >What's going on? Check out the very interesting special report in Scientific American (March 1998), "The End of Cheap Oil". The authors, two of the most respected geologists in the oil industry, contend that "global production of conventional oil will begin to decline sooner than most people think, probably within 10 years." John Livermore Conservation Services Group 441 Stuart Street - 5th Floor Boston, Massachusetts 02116 617.236.1500 voice 617.236.7899 fax If you have received this mail in error or wish to comment on any aspect of it, please contact Mark Baker at mark.baker@csgrp.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 14 05:05:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA28327 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 05:05:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA08656; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 05:02:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 04:59:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA08382 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 04:58:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA08378 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 04:58:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.100.175]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA8622 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:02:37 +0000 Message-ID: <3674E174.C5778C6C@which.net> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:59:17 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Heat Pumps X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5280 29.3 is a conversion factor for kWhrs/therm $0.55/therm equals $0.019/kWhr natural gas cost Here is the page if you want to see for yourself: http://www.geoexchange.org/cases/cs0054.htm It seems if you can obtain green electricity, geo heat pumps have a clear environmental advantage over burning natural gas. However this page shows a cost advantage as well which I am not so sure about. Malcolm Scott ------------ jh wrote: Where is the 29.3 from? What do you mean "at $0.019/kwhr..." in the gas portion of your example? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 14 08:41:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA00201 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:41:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA14342; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:39:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:35:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA14058 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:34:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA14054 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 08:34:53 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ214534; Mon, 14 Dec 98 06:35:01 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA64556; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 06:34:46 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 06:34:46 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: "malcolm.scott@which.net" Cc: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Heat Pumps In-Reply-To: <3673EC1F.B2526DBC@which.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5281 Malcolm: Who makes the smallest HP that could be operated from PV? I'm having problems finding any DC HPs. Anything less than 1.5 Tons? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 14 10:44:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02217 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:44:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20471; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:41:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:35:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19969 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19958 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:35:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet2.carleton.ca (be417@freenet2 [134.117.136.22]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id KAA18118; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:35:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet2.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id KAA13015; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:35:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 10:35:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199812141535.KAA13015@freenet2.carleton.ca> From: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: Ground Source Heat Pumps Reply-To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5282 Hello PumpHeads; In light of the ongoing slamming of GSHP, it seems that now is as good a time as any to toss in this little tidbit... One of my neighbours installed a GSHP in his new home at about the same time that I built my home back in 1985. I had contemplated one but decided that the relatively high initial cost of about $15k (including the cost of the extra discharge well) would be better spent on envelope improvements. After three years operation, John had to replace the heat exchanger module (at a cost of $#,000) due to corrosion failure. After replacing the module again about four years ago, he was fed-up enough with the thing that he sold the house. Another fellow (Richard), on the other (east) side of Ottawa replaced two heat exchanger modules in eight years (at a cost of $1#,000 each pop according to him) and ripped out and replaced the thing with a gas furnace when the module needed replacing the third time. He was offering the the unit for free to anyone who wanted it. Oddly enough, when I mentioned this to the GB list a year or two ago, I received a message from a local dealer/installer (to whom Jorg had fowarded my posting) saying that in over # hundred installations, he had never heard of such a failure even though when I speak to local heating contractors, they confirm that the experiences I mention above are not isolated cases. I don't know whether the dealer/installer has a case of selective hearingitis or Bill Clintonitis. -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 14 11:20:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA02832 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22821; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:17:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:13:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22366 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:13:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22358 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on6-26.netcom.ca [207.181.91.154]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20412; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:12:50 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981214105856.00a66b30@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:11:02 -0400 To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: re: Ground Source Heat Pumps Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <199812141535.KAA13015@freenet2.carleton.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5283 At 10:35 AM 14/12/98 -0500, Rob Tom wrote: >Hello PumpHeads; > >In light of the ongoing slamming of GSHP, it seems that now is as >good a time as any to toss in this little tidbit... > Since we're into heat pump slam dancing ............. We installed a masonry heater for a client about 10 years ago, who happened to own a large heating contracting firm. When I asked him his opinion about heat pumps (he was installing one in his house as a backup to the heater - weird but true) during a coffee break, he confided that your energy savings would vaporize with the first service call. A few years ago there was a review in Consumer Reports that said much the same thing -- they found that a high percentage of them were not installed correctly in the first place. As far as Rob's $15K capital cost quote - uh, where's the payback? Even if the thing is maintenance free, and electricity is $0.10/kWh, you'd need to be living in a sieve to make back the interest payments on the upfront cost. Not to mention that, in Ontario, you're fueling it with 60% nuclear energy. Best...........Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 14 11:21:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA02870 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:21:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22989; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:18:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:15:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22470 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:14:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from garnet.sover.net (garnet.sover.net [209.198.87.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22462 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:14:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.9] (pm4a30.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.30]) by garnet.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA13006; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:15:00 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:15:00 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) [207.136.199.9] from pm4a30.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.30] 207.136.199.30 Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:15:00 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199812140400.XAA28531@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "John Livermore" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: The Price of Oil Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5284 At 10:57 PM -0500 12/13/98, John Livermore wrote: > >Oil was supposed to be a disappearing precious commodity by now. > >What's going on? > > Check out the very interesting special report in Scientific American > (March 1998), "The End of Cheap Oil". The authors, two of the most > respected geologists in the oil industry, contend that "global > production of conventional oil will begin to decline sooner than most > people think, probably within 10 years." This was also covered in EBN in the September 1998 issue. I agree with John that it is a fascinating story. I was amazed that the mainstream media didn't pick it up as front-page news! Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 14 11:45:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03374 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:45:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24976; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:42:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:38:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA24486 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:38:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA24482 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:37:59 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 3NGVa20886 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:35:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6fbdcc47.36753e6d@aol.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:35:57 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Ground Source Heat Pumps Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5285 Friends, I'll jump in the slam of heat pumps: Any time the utilities subsidize something, the hair on my neck goes up and I get real wary. Seems a bit goofy to me to spend four or five times the cost of a conventional heating system to achieve marginal savings on fuel bills, whether it is my cash or the money from the sky promised by all these programs. On a larger perspective, splitting atoms in order to create the power to recover very marginal geothermal heat resources hardly seems very green. On a personal level, about a year ago we finished a remodel on a water front home whose neighbor had a heat pump. Started late in the cooling season, finished in the winter. The entire time that damn thing was sitting out in the neighbors yard making noise that sure distracted from an otherwise idylic spot. We were making noise as builders of course too, but at least ours was only temporary noise pollution. And finally, why make a simple problem like heating a house into a high tech hassle when so many good simple solutions are available. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 14 12:19:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA03999 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:19:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA27216; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:12:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26766 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:12:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from paonline.com (mail.paonline.com [207.44.20.2] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26758 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:12:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from lee [207.44.24.44] by paonline.com (SMTPD32-4.07) id A5727DE00230; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:05:54 EDT From: "Lee Livingood" To: "greenbuilding" Subject: GBlist: Resource Question Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:11:27 -0200 Message-ID: <000201be276b$a3efac90$781f2ccf@lee> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5286 Hi All, I'm new to the list and a real novice on the topic. Within the next year and a half we'll be moving from our very standard small, suburban townhouse. We'll be relocating to New Mexico, but haven't decided exactly which community. We'd like to build a "green" home both for environmental and for health reasons. But I'm really not sure how to get started with the decision making process. Is there a book out there that ya'll would recommend as a good primer --a starting place for someone who wants to learn and to make (reasonably )informed choices? Is there anything that gives an overview and/or comparison of techniques such as earthship, strawbale, pumice-crete, etc.? Is there anything out there that is the greenbuilding equivalent of Consumer Reports? Neither of us has any background in construction so we're really starting from square one. Any suggestions would be welcomed. Thanks, Lee Livingood ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 14 12:32:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA04316 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:32:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28259; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:29:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:25:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA27860 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:25:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA27848 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:25:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.157] (208.254.3.157) by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:32:32 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Resource Question Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 09:29:21 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1298465744-1618098@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5287 Lee As anyone on this list can tell you, it's a lifelong journey. Here are a few ideas to get you started. There _is_ a book called A Primer on Sustainable Building. We sell it--along with 150 other great books-- in the Iris Catalog. You can shop online at: www.oikos.com/catalog/ There are a number of excellent Web sites. Instead of listing them all here, please visit our links page: www.oikos.com/links/ Good Luck Bruce >Hi All, > >I'm new to the list and a real novice on the topic. Within the next year >and a half we'll be moving from our very standard small, suburban townhouse. >We'll be relocating to New Mexico, but haven't decided exactly which >community. We'd like to build a "green" home both for environmental and for >health reasons. But I'm really not sure how to get started with the decision >making process. > >Is there a book out there that ya'll would recommend as a good primer --a >starting place for someone who wants to learn and to make >(reasonably )informed choices? Is there anything that gives an overview >and/or comparison of techniques such as earthship, strawbale, pumice-crete, >etc.? Is there anything out there that is the greenbuilding equivalent of >Consumer Reports? Neither of us has any background in construction so we're >really starting from square one. > >Any suggestions would be welcomed. > >Thanks, >Lee Livingood ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 14 13:45:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA05686 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:45:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03042; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:42:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:37:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02516 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:36:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02510 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:36:47 -0500 (EST) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 3YFTa25365; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:36:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:36:05 EST To: greenbuilding Cc: Lee Livingood Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Resource Question Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5288 In a message dated 98-12-14 12:27:03 EST, you write: << Is there a book out there that ya'll would recommend as a good primer --a starting place for someone who wants to learn and to make (reasonably )informed choices? >> Lee - John Bower from the "Healthy House Inst." has a number of excellent publications that would be helpful regarding the building, what materials to use & maintenance of a "Healthy House". Here's a link to their web site & a link to their page with descriptions of the available publications. The Healthy House Institute Home Page http://www.hhinst.com/ The Healthy House Institute, Books and videos http://www.hhinst.com/booksvideos.html Here's a few other links that could be useful: CMHC: The Toronto Healthy House http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/HealthyHousing/Toronto/e_here.htm Green Living Center: In the Home http://www.greenliving.org/inyourhome/index.html Environmental Building News - Your Guide to Green Building http://www.ebuild.com/ Regards, Cathy Flanders IAQ List Manager & Moderator Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq IAQ Listserve (to search archives) http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/iaq ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 14 13:57:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA05872 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:57:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03774; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:50:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03484 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:50:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (daemon@smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03479 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 13:50:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17664; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:50:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-039.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.39), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd017504; Mon Dec 14 11:50:25 1998 Message-ID: <36756C13.9E6C25A2@primenet.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 11:50:43 -0800 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rkfabf@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Resource Question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5289 Dear Lee, A GREAT book for green building considerations (virtually all aspects) is "A Pattern Language" by Christopher Alexander. I don't think anyone should build without having read this work. What part of New Mexico will you build? Regards, John Wilson Nogal, NM. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 14 14:54:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA06887 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:54:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07284; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:50:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:46:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA06790 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:46:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06786 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 14:46:23 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ055997; Mon, 14 Dec 98 12:45:10 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA82120; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:44:16 -0700 Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:44:16 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: FUnger@aol.com Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Jeff Schiissler , schiissler.jeff@colteng.com Subject: GBlist: D-I-Y Ground Source Heat Pumps In-Reply-To: <6fbdcc47.36753e6d@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5290 You said: "Any time the utilities subsidize something, the hair on my neck goes up and I get real wary. Seems a bit goofy to me to spend four or five times the cost of a conventional heating system to achieve marginal savings on fuel bills, whether it is my cash or the money from the sky promised by all these programs." ____________________________________________________________________________ Fred: Further to your comments of above, how about the idea of 2 cascading heat pumps for a ground-coupled system using 2 reused/purged frigerator compressors? Our heating load is small (ie.30,000Btu/hr @ -24 dF). No experience yet, only a concept and materials so far. Not vvery efficient, but VERY cost-effective, I think. Constructive comments welcomed. Jorg ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 14 19:58:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA11163 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:58:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA23789; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:55:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:51:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA23347 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:51:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.gorge.net (mail.gorge.net [205.162.195.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA23341 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:50:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from gorge.net ([208.14.145.25]) by mail.gorge.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-54909U8000L800S0V35) with ESMTP id AAA199 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:44:54 -0800 Message-ID: <3675B448.5718B606@gorge.net> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 16:58:50 -0800 From: Daniel Dancer Organization: ZeroCircles Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: This Old (Green) House Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5291 Has anyone heard of a video project that does a 'play by play' documentation of the issues envolved in the construction of an ecologically sensitive/green home? I think it would be a very interesting piece for public television and am thinking about the possibility of doing something like this around my quest to create a long lasting, low maitainence, off the grid green home as the model home in a budding 'eco-community' of 10 homes on 200 acres next to 5000 acres of wildland in Oregon. Has this been done? Does anyone think this is a good idea? Could it be profitable? I'd love to hear your ideas. Thanks! Daniel Dancer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 14 21:52:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA12622 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:52:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA28295; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:48:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:44:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA28024 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:44:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA28020 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:44:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.36] (rkd041.acadia.net [208.244.128.65]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA16698 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:44:46 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:43:43 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Off topic - CAD Systems Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5292 Dear Folks, My business partner Sarah and I would love some advice. We're a small (2 person) architecture firm focusing on green building to the greatest possible extent. We've both had hands-on construction experience, so we tend to collaborate well with builders, but we still do heavily detailed construction documents. After years of hand drafting, we're considering making the move to Computer Aided Drafting (CAD). Our questions include: 1. Does CAD actually, demonstrably, increase the efficiency of a small architecture practice? 2. We're devoted MacIntosh partisans. What are the disadvantages and advantages of the MacIntosh vs. PC platforms for doing CAD? 3. We are drawn to the software package MiniCad - do others have opinions on this package, or other software to recommend? Please reply off-list to the email address above, and thanks! I apologize for posting an off-topic subject. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 14 23:17:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA13531 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:17:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA01297; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:14:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:10:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA00981 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:09:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00975 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 23:09:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from myrtle.rtpnc.epa.gov by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26439) with ESMTP id <0F3Z00J8N6VFEV@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:46:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26438) with SMTP id <0F3Y00LE7TT5UK@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:27:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:21:38 -0500 Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:18:58 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: More Geothermal Heat Pumps To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5293 WOW! A lot of interesting remarks on this thread. Thanks, everyone. I'll interject a few things myself below (preceded by ***) ___________________________________ In regards to the relative environmental impacts of gas vs electricity, one EPA study not withstanding. . . . (snip) ***If you are interested in receiving a free copy of this report, you may call 1-888-782-7937 and ask for Space Conditioning: The Next Frontier. Appendix B contains regional and national emission factors taken from EIA for CO2, NOx and SOx. ***I should point out that this particular report was undertaken about 6 years ago, and preceded the existence of the GHPC (and my tenure at EPA, for that matter). The research was approached from as objective a standpoint as possible. Note, however, that some of the assumptions may be slightly out of date due to changes in technology and markets. Nonetheless, I believe it is still one of the more rigorous analyses to look at comparative residential heating and cooling systems. . . . I still believe that electricity has far greater environmental impacts than natural gas. According to the average figures that I have seen, electricity produces about 6.12 lbs of CO2/kWh (source energy) while natural gas produces about 11.6 lbs of CO2/therm . . . (snip). ***The latest spreadsheet I received from Lawrence Berkeley National Lab, who does a lot of our really hard work, uses an emissions factor of .2 MMTCE per billion kWh. I believe that becomes .2 kg per kWh if we lose a lot of the zeros. Converting kg to pounds gives us .44 lbs/kWh and then converting carbon to CO2 (44/12) yields 1.6 pounds/kWh. The same spreadsheet shows the same 11.6 lbs of CO2/therm as Malcolm states. I am not certain what the discrepancy is. If this number is correct, that would significantly alter Marcus's analysis, making the gas and GHP just about even. ***A quick mental check that makes me more comfortable with the lower value is: using the pretty standard rule of thumb that it takes about a pound of coal to generate a kWh, and if the coal is pure carbon, and it all becomes CO2--that would be about 3.7 pounds of CO2 as a theoretical maximum emission. ***Lastly, the emission factor is expected to decline (due to plant retirements, more renewables, and efficiency improvements in existing plants) to about 1 pound CO2 per kWh by 2010, which would put the GHP well ahead in the CO2 category based on Marcus's quick analysis and the corrected emission factor. Another environmental consideration not mentioned yet is that groundsource heat pumps use an ozone depleting refrigerant (R22). ***Good point. However, most homes would still need to be cooled even if they chose gas for heating. Virtually all residential AC units use R-22 also (Carrier and Bryant offer an R-410a unit), which need to be field installed and are more likely to develop leaks than the factory sealed GHP. Steve Offutt ============= Contact Information: Steve Offutt - ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html ============= ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 15 07:44:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA16851 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:44:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA14790; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:41:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:37:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA14492 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:37:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA14488 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:37:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.102.174]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA24200 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:41:14 +0000 Message-ID: <367642D1.389AB96F@which.net> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:06:57 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: More Geothermal Heat Pumps X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5294 Please don't think I'm a heat pump slammer. Driven by wind or PV they look great. For natural gas 11.6 lbs/therm equals 0.396 lbs/kWhr at 29.3 kWhr/therm. Your figures for all electricity gives 1.613 lbs/kWhr. A 90% eff. furnace outputs 0.44 lbs/kWhr. A COP 3.5 HP yields 0.461 lbs/kWhr. These figures are so close that it really depends where you get your electricity from. I presume these are only being touted in areas not supplied by coal fired stations. Malcolm Scott Steve Offut wrote: ***Lastly, the emission factor is expected to decline (due to plant retirements, more renewables, and efficiency improvements in existing plants) to about 1 pound CO2 per kWh by 2010, which would put the GHP well ahead in the CO2 category based on Marcus's quick analysis and the corrected emission factor. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 15 08:49:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA17497 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:49:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA17839; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:45:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:41:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17590 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:41:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17586 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:41:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA16353; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA23846; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:41:36 -0500 Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:41:36 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: "David M. Foley" Cc: "Ross M. Donald" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: CAD Systems In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5295 Dear David and Sarah, This is very much "on topic" for me. After 25 years in the field (and now getting back into more of a teaching/communications mode,) I'm virtually unemployable in an architectural office, due to my lack of CAD skills. I have a real aptitude for computers, but "no experience, sorry." More than that, and generally speaking we ("the green building community") need to get the practical experience from the successful projects of the Solar Age 1975-1985 (and whatever has proven sustainable through to the present) saved for the record.) I have shelves and boxes of detailed drawings; and there are, of course, both classic and obscure, but charming, books on the best new (still new) standards, specs, schematics, details, etc., which are either going to get recycling with the newspaper, or preferably saved online for common access. I'd be interested in the replies to your inquiries, and beyond that, how to get CAD into CMC, that is, how do we get from computer aided design to computer aided communications. Yours truly, Ross encl: On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, David M. Foley wrote: > Dear Folks, > > My business partner Sarah and I would love some advice. We're a small (2 > person) architecture firm focusing on green building to the greatest > possible extent. We've both had hands-on construction experience, so we > tend to collaborate well with builders, but we still do heavily detailed > construction documents. > > After years of hand drafting, we're considering making the move to Computer > Aided Drafting (CAD). Our questions include: > > 1. Does CAD actually, demonstrably, increase the efficiency of a small > architecture practice? > > 2. We're devoted MacIntosh partisans. What are the disadvantages and > advantages of the MacIntosh vs. PC platforms for doing CAD? > > 3. We are drawn to the software package MiniCad - do others have opinions > on this package, or other software to recommend? > > Please reply off-list to the email address above, and thanks! I apologize > for posting an off-topic subject. > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 15 08:56:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA17594 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:56:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA18295; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:54:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:50:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA18035 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:50:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA18030 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:50:12 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ264656; Tue, 15 Dec 98 06:49:53 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA19690; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 06:49:49 -0700 Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 06:49:49 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "David M. Foley" Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Off topic - CAD Systems In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5296 David: One advantage is the ability to transfer files by e-mail to the printer so that you can pick up the prints 2 hours later. Also good if you need to make MINOR changes later (ie. "AS BUILD" DRAWINGS). Also useful if your details are generic. However, after many years of use, I am still not enthralled by CAD. A big disadvantage is the amount of memory it takes when making changes (ie. shading, cross hatching, etc.). Horiffic. We now hand draw all design drawing to simplify and speedup changes and when few if any changes are anticipated, they go onto computer. It makes less sense for unique designs for which the drawings could never be used again. If replication is possible, CAD makes more sense. Jorg ________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 14 Dec 1998, David M. Foley wrote: > > Dear Folks, > > My business partner Sarah and I would love some advice. We're a small (2 > person) architecture firm focusing on green building to the greatest > possible extent. We've both had hands-on construction experience, so we > tend to collaborate well with builders, but we still do heavily detailed > construction documents. > > After years of hand drafting, we're considering making the move to Computer > Aided Drafting (CAD). Our questions include: > > 1. Does CAD actually, demonstrably, increase the efficiency of a small > architecture practice? > > 2. We're devoted MacIntosh partisans. What are the disadvantages and > advantages of the MacIntosh vs. PC platforms for doing CAD? > > 3. We are drawn to the software package MiniCad - do others have opinions > on this package, or other software to recommend? > > Please reply off-list to the email address above, and thanks! I apologize > for posting an off-topic subject. > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 15 09:10:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17786 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:10:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18952; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:07:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:04:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18619 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:04:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from monarch.sover.net (monarch.sover.net [209.198.87.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18609 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:04:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.9] (pm2a27.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.219]) by monarch.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA19324; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:07:54 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:07:54 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on monarch.sover.net) [207.136.199.9] from pm2a27.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.219] 207.136.199.219 Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:07:54 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: STEPHEN OFFUTT , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: More Geothermal Heat Pumps Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5297 These CO2 emission values from EPA that Stephen quotes some pretty accurate. I just checked the numbers I calculated for the Consumer Guide to Home Energy Savings in 1990 (first edition), and mine were remarkably similar. I came up with 1.54 lb CO2 per kWh for electricity assuming a nationally weighted mix of generation sources (2.37 lb CO2/kWh for coal-generated electricity and 1.32 lb CO2/kWh for natural gas-generated electricity). For directly burned natural gas, I came up with 12.1 lb CO2/therm. Fuel oil came out at 26.4 lb CO2 per gallon, and gasoline 23.8 lb CO2 per gallon. As I recall, I used data from Oak Ridge National Laboratory, but still went through a lot of conversions to produce numbers that consumers could relate to. I don't know where the 6.12 lb CO2/kWh that another list participant quoted came from. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News Coauthor, ACEEE's Consumer Guide to Home Energy Savings At 12:18 PM -0500 12/14/98, STEPHEN OFFUTT wrote: >***The latest spreadsheet I received from Lawrence Berkeley National Lab, >who does a >lot of our really hard work, uses an emissions factor of .2 MMTCE per >billion kWh. I >believe that becomes .2 kg per kWh if we lose a lot of the zeros. >Converting kg to >pounds gives us .44 lbs/kWh and then converting carbon to CO2 (44/12) >yields 1.6 >pounds/kWh. The same spreadsheet shows the same 11.6 lbs of CO2/therm as >Malcolm states. I am not certain what the discrepancy is. If this number >is correct, that >would significantly alter Marcus's analysis, making the gas and GHP just >about even. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 15 09:22:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17920 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:22:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19652; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:19:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:15:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19383 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.cityweb.de (mail1.cityweb.de [193.189.224.217]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19379 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:15:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from cityweb.de (ess8-m159-86.pool.cww.de [62.52.159.86]) by mail1.cityweb.de (8.9.1/8.9.1/powered by Telemedia) with ESMTP id PAA13786; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 15:15:46 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <3675F976.FB93AA7D@cityweb.de> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 06:53:59 +0100 From: Vernon LeCount Reply-To: vernonlecount@cityweb.de X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Dancer CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: This Old (Green) House References: <3675B448.5718B606@gorge.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5298 Dear Dan, Contact your local PBS station. They will probably want someone to come up with some sort of matching funds. Suppliers and contractors might be willing to help. Owens-Corning and others help with the costs of "This Old House." If your local station comes on board they can offer it to the national PBS network. It would not be profitable going this route, but it is always a worthwhile project to try to educate people about sustainable living. Discovery TV and All American Television (both out of Manhattan) might have an interest. But both would want any profits derived from the shoot. The San Francisco PBS affiliate is probably better off financially than your local PBS affiliate. It is difficult to make money on documentaries, that is, any good television. If you could incorporate a "Jerry Springer" format into the construction project you might be able to sell it. (That is my cynicism talking). But I believe the only way you will get this project shot is to want it because you want to educate people about green building. I think if the motivation is making any money from such a project you may be disappointed. But if you are willing to put up stater money ($50,000), you will have a better chance. If you have a deep pocketed source of money approach local documentary producers and filmmakers, and with their help approach PBS. As a last resort approach the local cable access station in the city nearest the site. I have twenty years of TV/documentary experience. And have been in and out of PBS during this time. In the late 70's I was a producer for the PBS station out of Austin, Texas, where I was able to do a five part series on "green living" The program had two segments on passive and active solar applications, aimed toward the consumer. We could not get it to go national (that is, the other affiliates did not want to make the buy). Good luck Vernon LeCount Essen, Germany and soon Waldo County, Maine Daniel Dancer wrote: > Has anyone heard of a video project that does a 'play by play' > documentation of > the issues envolved in the construction of an ecologically > sensitive/green home? I think it would be a very interesting piece for > public television and am thinking about the possibility of doing > something like this around my quest to create a long lasting, low > maitainence, off the grid green home as the model home in a budding > 'eco-community' of 10 homes on 200 acres next to 5000 acres of wildland > in Oregon. Has this been done? Does anyone think this is a good idea? > Could it be profitable? I'd love to hear your ideas. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 15 11:00:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20322 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:00:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25606; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:58:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:54:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25262 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:53:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25258 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA03416 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:53:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from vna-va16-03.ix.netcom.com(207.223.179.131) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma003347; Tue Dec 15 09:53:21 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981215105056.00705ea8@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:50:58 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Resource Question Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5299 To Lee Livingood: Fr: Bion Howard 12/15/98 A suggestion, I hope without seeming too self promoting, please visit our "Green Building Primer" on line = . Following our several requests for comments which met with good feedback, and over 1,000 downloads tracked during the last 18 months, we are sure it has been useful to many entering the field or those needing a basic starting point on the topic. The document is based in work we have done on the ASTM Draft Standard Guide for Residential Green Building, and from our research preparing articles for the US Green Building Council, EEBA, ASES and Remodeling News during 1989-1997. (Other publications are listed elsewhere on the web site.) Would be interested in your comments as well. [Note: after the first of the year we will begin requesting a small user fee for the Primer, and further updating its content.] Another great resource is Environmental Building News and if you need to hunt up a local green building professional to assist you on a project check out "Green Building Professionals Search tool (very useful)= Best of luck and soon as your neat name suggests, you may be living well and doing the Earth some good!! Welcome to the list, and thanks... <>< Bion ------ >Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 12:11:27 -0200 >From: "Lee Livingood" >Subject: GBlist: Resource Question >I'm new to the list and a real novice on the topic. Within the next year >and a half we'll be moving from our very standard small, suburban townhouse. >We'll be relocating to New Mexico, but haven't decided exactly which >community. We'd like to build a "green" home both for environmental and for >health reasons. But I'm really not sure how to get started with the decision >making process. | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 15 11:05:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20412 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:05:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26080; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:02:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:59:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25678 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:59:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25673 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:59:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.162.253.77] (d57.best1.net [205.162.253.77]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA20917; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:59:01 -0800 X-Sender: smcgrath@mail.best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 08:00:23 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: Re: GBlist: This Old (Green) House Cc: rdettmer@buildamerica.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5300 >Has anyone heard of a video project that does a 'play by play' >documentation of >the issues envolved in the construction of an ecologically >sensitive/green home? I think it would be a very interesting piece for >public television and am thinking about the possibility of doing >something like this around my quest to create a long lasting, low >maitainence, off the grid green home as the model home in a budding >'eco-community' of 10 homes on 200 acres next to 5000 acres of wildland >in Oregon. Has this been done? Does anyone think this is a good idea? >Could it be profitable? I'd love to hear your ideas. > >Thanks! >Daniel Dancer > Try the Build America web site for info on ordering a copy of 'Resourceful Materials and Methods for Building Construction' ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine with live internet broadcast every Monday at 4:05pm PST http://www.buildamerica.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 15 11:19:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20680 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:19:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26996; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:16:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:13:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA26635 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:12:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from sbra.com ([206.67.80.99]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26624 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:12:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from sbra.com by sbra.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA16394; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:10:42 -0500 Message-ID: <36768A21.D05CECD2@sbra.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:11:17 -0500 From: "Peter R. Nobile, III, AIA" Reply-To: prn251@sbra.com Organization: Shepley Bulfinch Richardson and Abbott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: The price of oil References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5301 David M. Foley wrote: > But the way I read Fred's question, he was asking: why do we > environmentalists rely on prophecies of doom to influence people, > especially when some of our prophecies are dead wrong? Why don't we rely > more on positive visions? > > Good questions, Fred. I'm convinced that most of the changes we're going > to need to make to live sustainably won't be punitive at all - they're > going to be FUN. I think a sustainable human culture will be healthier, > culturally richer, calmer, more just, more technologically "nifty", more > spiritually fulfilling and just plain more interesting than our present > culture. I think that many, many people would eagerly embrace tangible, > positive examples of that alternate future. > > That's on good days. On bad days, I think that most of the human race is > doomed, and that I'm going to spend the rest of my life Ark-building, to > leave something to the few wretched survivors. > > What do other folks think? > David - I think the reason environmentalists rely on prophesy to motivate people is that the technique is tried and true in human history - witness the religious fervor and paranoia beginning to erupt around the approaching millenium which, as many wiser than I have pointed out, is just an arbritrary point in time. We humans have a strange need for feeling like all things are organized in the universe in a comprehensible fashion - when we don't understand, we make up Pantheons of Gods or write things off to magic rather than just deal with the fact that we're riding along on a little ball of rock covered with a big gas bag as our only protection from the infinite, cold reaches of space. We'd rather feel safe with an alternate version of reality which is more comforting and palatable. When it comes to the planet, we know some things about it - we have figured out patterns, we can see what our impact is on living systems, etc., but as a species we prefer an alternate reality to the havoc we've managed to cause. And environmentalists can get all wrapped up in the minutae, which turns people off; the ecological movement often looks narrow-minded because as a friend says "we argue about how many BTUs can fit on the head of a pin." We're not thinking big picture. So we end up with alternatives: if we can find important people to say that everything is OK, we can drink our Coffee Coolattas in peace. As the rap song goes, "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt." The challenge, as I see it, is to increase awareness of the reality of life on earth. Unitarians call reality "the great interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part." Ecology, tolerance for diversity, the wonder of a starry night - actually, astronauts have said some of the most powerful things about planet earth (after they get past being struck speechless by the sight), and their words have had more impact on me than any amount of doomsday handwringing ever will. We have as much capacity for hope as we do to destroy. Besides, who knows? Perhaps Lovelock is correct, and Gaia will engulf us in order to protect the larger body. Perhaps the diseases which affect us are the earth's way of saying: shape up, or ship out... Keep on fighting the good fight. And don't bother with Ark building - there isn't anywhere else to go! We've got to fix this one first. Peter ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 15 11:23:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20702 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:23:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27358; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:20:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:16:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA26928 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:16:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26924 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:16:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DWH7324M; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:16:25 EST To: GWB9473@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:33:46 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: Message-ID: <19981215.112116.9374.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-8,13-14,17-21 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5302 Hi Gary, You are not alone in expressing these thoughts. Pliny Fisk, in Texas, is one who explores the "cradle to grave" aspect of building materials. Several others, including Steve Loken et al at the Center for Resourceful Building and William McDonough, have continually talked about "cradle to grave" considerations. The concept of sustainable design does include sustainable resourcing. I know that many of us on this list also try to take these concerns in consideration in material selection. You may not see this expressed as often as you might wish, but as you are new to the list, realize that we have already discussed these topics many times in the past. Hang in there and be patient with some of us - we have been "in this game" long enough to have been through some of the skirmishes along the way and perhaps it has made a few of us more defensive than we need be. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 15 11:31:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20898 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:31:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27968; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:28:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:24:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27590 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:24:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27585 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:24:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.3.220.12]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.08) id 7558800 ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:28:27 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981215112008.0069dc48@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:20:08 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: Heat Pumps In-Reply-To: <199812140700.CAA04059@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5303 Malcolm Scott wrote: >Yes, although I don't believe many furnaces operate at an average as >high as 96%, and as you show, it is the coal burning power generators >that get in the way of electrically driven heat pumps being >environmentally friendly. However I found these figures on a Geoexchange >sample homes page: >- ------- >Operating Cost Comparison for 3,067-ft2 Spec House >Annual Heating only Cost > >GeoExchange System $64 >Air-Source Heat Pump $218 >Gas Furnace/ Electric Air Conditioner $314 > >Costs above are based on an electric rate of $0.046 cents/kWh, a natural >gas rate of $0.55/therm. The GeoExchange system has a heating >Coefficient of Performance (COP) of 3.5 >- ------ >These are for heating only of a house. My maths tells me that at the >extraordinary low rate of $0.046/kWhr for electricity and COP 3.5, >64/0.046*3.5, $64 buys 4870 kWhrs of heat energy. >At $0.019/kWhr for gas($0.55/29.3) and boiler effeciency of 90%, >314/0.019*0.9, $314 buys 14874 kWhrs of heat energy. >How can both of these do the same job? I am assuming the electric air >conditioner doesn't play any part in the heating. Have I misunderstood >something? > I believe that you are taking into account the efficiency difference twice. When the original cost figures were derived, efficiency had to have been taken into account. If so then the figures for comparison should be 64/.046 = 1391 kWh and 314/0.55 = 571 therms. Converting to site BTUs, 1391 x 3413 BTU/kWh = 4.75 MMBTU and 571 x 100000 BTU/therm = 57.1 MMBTU. Looks like these two results are heating two different houses. If we assume that the house requires the 57.1 MMBTU then the cost for a GSHP would be: 57.1 MMBTU/3413 BTU/kWh ----------------------- = 4779 kWh x $0.046/kWh = $220 3.5 Look like bogus numbers to me as well, unless I am missing something. PS I used the 96% figure to represent the best gas furnace available (pulse technology) as stated in the original post. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 15 11:42:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA21093 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:42:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28825; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:39:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:35:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28415 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:34:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from sbra.com ([206.67.80.99]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28411 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:34:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from sbra.com by sbra.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA16619; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:32:33 -0500 Message-ID: <36768F40.D8E1D940@sbra.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:33:09 -0500 From: "Peter R. Nobile, III, AIA" Reply-To: prn251@sbra.com Organization: Shepley Bulfinch Richardson and Abbott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Re: Experience References: <1.5.4.32.19981211040651.006cc70c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id LAA28412 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5304 David F. Lambertson wrote: > In summary, I think it takes more than just a scattering of real building > experience to make an architect properly responsive. I was struck by the > mention on this list that one always hears complaints about the architects > who don’t know how to build but never the reverse. That, however, is just > the point. Architects are hired to design a structure that is not only > beautiful, but also buildable. No wonder the popularity of design-build > firms is high. Say ‘architect’ to anyone who has wanted to have a space > designed for them and the most common response is that when they’ve tried, > but the architect just wouldn’t listen to them. Builders are concrete. > Architects need to learn to become so too. > Sacie Lambertson > Sacie - Just one other thing to add - generalizing that all architects are poor listeners is like saying that all Americans are cowboys. It will only appear to be true if you're living in rural Texas, or if your perspective on America comes only through reruns of "Dallas." There are, and have always been, some very talented and sensitive architects who have designed perfectly buildable and beautifully proportioned spaces and structures which have enriched the human experience. Learning how to design well is not simple at all, and just as all builders or doctors are not equally talented, so it goes for architects. Improving architectural education is an ongoing process; there is always more work to be done. I think JC said it best: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Peter ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 15 12:30:55 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA23063 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:30:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01980; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:27:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:23:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01531 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:22:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01523 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:22:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.3.220.10]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.08) id 7640100 ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:27:20 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981215121901.0069b718@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 12:19:01 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: Heat Pumps In-Reply-To: <199812150700.CAA05877@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5305 STEPHEN OFFUTT wrote: >***The latest spreadsheet I received from Lawrence Berkeley National Lab, who does a >lot of our really hard work, uses an emissions factor of .2 MMTCE per billion kWh. I >believe that becomes .2 kg per kWh if we lose a lot of the zeros. Converting kg to >pounds gives us .44 lbs/kWh and then converting carbon to CO2 (44/12) yields 1.6 >pounds/kWh. The same spreadsheet shows the same 11.6 lbs of CO2/therm as >Malcolm states. I am not certain what the discrepancy is. If this number is correct, that >would significantly alter Marcus's analysis, making the gas and GHP just about even. >***A quick mental check that makes me more comfortable with the lower value is: using >the pretty standard rule of thumb that it takes about a pound of coal to generate a kWh, >and if the coal is pure carbon, and it all becomes CO2--that would be about 3.7 pounds >of CO2 as a theoretical maximum emission. > The Alliance to Save Energy report (Simplified Pollution Avoidance Calculation for Builders, Bion Howard, 1993) multiplies kWh by 3.4 for each pollution generation figure for electricity. This is to take into account the difference between site and source energy. I apparently have misapplied the multiplier but that does not change my results. My original calculation appears below: lbs of pollutant (source)/unit of fuel -------------------------------------- divided by equipment efficiency = lbs of pollutant/BTU BTU (site)/unit of fuel I took the difference between site energy and source energy into account by multiplying the lbs of pollutants by 3.4. I should have taken this into account in the equation by divided by overall system effieincy (using 120% for a GSHP [400% x 30%]) or multiplying the results by 3.4. Either way I would come out with the same answers. Am I applying this multiplier in error? If I am then you are correct that the systems would be about even in CO2 (not in SO2, NOx, or particulates, however). ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 15 14:41:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA25171 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:41:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA09057; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:38:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:34:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08705 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:34:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.8] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08700 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:34:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.145]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 6041700 ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:40:43 -0800 Message-ID: <3676B963.6D1595E2@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:32:52 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David M. Foley" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Off topic - CAD Systems References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5306 I started working with cad about 5 years ago (autocad). I thought initially that I would be using it primarily for more technical detail drawings. I did not want an intuitive or creative design tool as that had been my relationship to the drawing board up to that point and drawing was my strength, so autocad (a more technically oriented program seemed appropriate) I have not used my board since that first day. My very small practice does not support the expense of the programming and I do consider it often inefficient for the process of building but I do think it an indispensible tool, especially for greenbuilding where detail, innovation, documentation, presentation and communication are key factors. I think the key and strength of using cad is to work 3dimensionally - in this way a building can be built within a landscape, rather than drawn. Drawings can contain crucial information about everything from mass to toxins, all related to individual material choices, or cumulative profiles. Landforms, drainage patterns, solar aspect, even wildlife habitat all can become working elements. This is where the inefficiency comes in as most relavent information is still irrelavent to the process but I like to think that the process of design itself needs to not end with a building - we need to be able to develop a portrait or document of the land itself and that information may in the end become more valuable or valued than what is built. John David M. Foley wrote: > Dear Folks, > > My business partner Sarah and I would love some advice. We're a small (2 > person) architecture firm focusing on green building to the greatest > possible extent. We've both had hands-on construction experience, so we > tend to collaborate well with builders, but we still do heavily detailed > construction documents. > > After years of hand drafting, we're considering making the move to Computer > Aided Drafting (CAD). Our questions include: > > 1. Does CAD actually, demonstrably, increase the efficiency of a small > architecture practice? > > 2. We're devoted MacIntosh partisans. What are the disadvantages and > advantages of the MacIntosh vs. PC platforms for doing CAD? > > 3. We are drawn to the software package MiniCad - do others have opinions > on this package, or other software to recommend? > > Please reply off-list to the email address above, and thanks! I apologize > for posting an off-topic subject. > > David Foley > Holland and Foley Building Design > 232 Beech Hill Road > Northport, Maine USA 04849 > p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 15 17:15:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA28034 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:15:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16649; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:12:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:07:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA16294 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:06:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA16290 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:06:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from eliel (1Cust122.tnt7.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.122.122]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA07573; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:06:48 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.0.2.19981215162139.00b02cb0@earthlink.net> X-Sender: greenbergman@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 17:01:22 -0800 To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) From: David Bergman Subject: Re: GBlist: Off topic - CAD Systems Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5307 At 09:43 PM 12/14/98 -0400, you wrote: > >1. Does CAD actually, demonstrably, increase the efficiency of a small >architecture practice? > >2. We're devoted MacIntosh partisans. What are the disadvantages and >advantages of the MacIntosh vs. PC platforms for doing CAD? > >3. We are drawn to the software package MiniCad - do others have opinions >on this package, or other software to recommend? > This is sort of a cross-post since I subscribe to two email listserves: the GBList and one for the CAD software I use, DataCAD. To address your questions in reverse order, I use and recommend DataCAD. It has some drawbacks of course -- they all do -- but it has at least two strong positives. First, it has a very easy learning curve. I learned it while simultaneously doing my first project on it -- as opposed to the Autocad type programs that require moths of study. Second, it is set up specifically for architecture. It is not a generic CAD program that needs add-ons to do architecture. It has also has a great asset in cheap third-party user-written macros that add still more architectural functions. Beyond that, there is another invaluable resource in the aforementioned listserve; user questions are asked and answered by other users on an almost immediate basis. Also, it's pretty reasonably priced. The newest version is a bit under $700 and additional seats are under $400. (At the other extreme, Autocad is something like $3000 or $4000, and that's without the architectural add-ons.) DataCAD is PC only. MAC users will debate this, but most PC users will say that there is no essential difference in usability anymore. There is a somewhat different mindset between PCs and Macs, but once you get used to one or the other, I think they are about equal. Then there's the fact that most of the architectural world is on PC, so there are more resources (shareware, details, etc.) available. As far as efficiency goes, I held off for a number of years thinking (wrongly) that CAD made more sense for large firms with more repetitive tasks. (I disagree with Jorg on this one.) Now, though, I no longer even have a drafting board. Drawing is much faster and more accurate and changes are FAR faster. The drawback is in computer maintenance and debugging and all that. As a small firm, I have no inhouse techies to take care of stuff. When something crashes, I have to fix it. Fortunately, I like figuring the stuff out. But it ends up taking a lot of time if you let it. I would have to say it seriously erodes the time gains. But I wouldn't ever go back. Two points of advice: make sure you have backups of all data for the inevitable catastrophe, and have two computers if at all possible so that if one develops a problem (hardware or software), you're not dead in the water. Hope this is helpful, David Bergman David Bergman Architects/Fire & Water Lighting bergman@cyberg.com http://cyberg.com T 212 475 3106 F 212 677 7291 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 15 19:06:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA29617 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:06:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA21459; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 19:03:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:59:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA21127 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:59:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21119 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:59:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from kbell (pool-207-205-128-56.atln.grid.net [207.205.128.56]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA07348; Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:59:35 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199812152359.SAA07348@camel7.mindspring.com> From: "Karlene" To: "Daniel Dancer" , "greenbuilding" Subject: Re: GBlist: This Old (Green) House Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:59:21 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5308 Sounds good to me - it's just the thing I'm looking for. BUT - one house is not right in every situation, climate, etc. and some people might try to copy it outright without educating themselves further. ... It might have to be broader than just the one. But then - it's a start, and anything aimed at the general public would reach more people, and I personally think the time is right. An eco-dreamer at heart. Karlene Bell ---------- > From: Daniel Dancer > To: greenbuilding > Subject: GBlist: This Old (Green) House > Date: Monday, December 14, 1998 7:58 PM > > Has anyone heard of a video project that does a 'play by play' > documentation of > the issues envolved in the construction of an ecologically > sensitive/green home? I think it would be a very interesting piece for > public television and am thinking about the possibility of doing > something like this around my quest to create a long lasting, low > maitainence, off the grid green home as the model home in a budding > 'eco-community' of 10 homes on 200 acres next to 5000 acres of wildland > in Oregon. Has this been done? Does anyone think this is a good idea? > Could it be profitable? I'd love to hear your ideas. > > Thanks! > Daniel Dancer > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 08:03:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA05909 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:03:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA17671; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:00:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:56:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA17391 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:56:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA17385 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:56:42 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 1IDHa08291 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:56:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <27a6b6af.3677adfb@aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:56:27 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Timber Framing Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5309 how do people feel Timber Framing fits into the green/sustainable arena ???? Is it to be aoided because it uses larger timbers ??? What if you are using wood from trees that had to be removed from the site ??? or recycled timbers ??? Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 10:04:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07314 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:04:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23381; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:00:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:57:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22992 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:57:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (root@kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22987 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.57 (pm1-25.hoosier.net [206.106.67.57]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12920; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:57:14 -0500 Message-ID: <367783F2.748F@ns.hoosier.net> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 09:57:07 +0000 From: John Bower Reply-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Dancer CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: This Old (Green) House References: <3675B448.5718B606@gorge.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5310 We are putting together a 13 episode on building a Healthy House. The focus is on indoor air quality. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 10:37:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07785 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:37:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25711; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:34:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:30:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25404 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:30:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25396 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:30:17 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ940797; Wed, 16 Dec 98 08:28:47 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA81340; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:28:41 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:28:41 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Cc: John Bower , greenbuilding , iaq@onelist.com Subject: Re: GBlist: This Old (Green) House Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5311 ______________________________________________________________________ John: Further to your recent note on the above, you may be interested in a paper that was delivered to health inspectors outlining most of the indoor environmental (not only air) features of our demonstration project. I could fax it to you, if you are interested. The most recent articles on this project (general description) can be found in the 2nd last issues of "EnvironmentaI Design & Construction" and "Environmental Building News", in case you want to find out more right away. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), - in full-time professional practice since 1976, environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 11:22:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09269 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:22:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29236; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:19:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:15:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA28808 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:15:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA28796 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:15:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DWLRW3GY; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:06:45 EST To: bergman@cyberg.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:34:47 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Off topic - CAD Systems Message-ID: <19981216.111131.3350.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <4.0.2.19981215162139.00b02cb0@earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-9 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5312 Hi, You say ayou recommend DataCad because ii is specifically geared for architecture. As an interior designer, concerned more with things like interior framing and elevations, would you also recommend it for my practice? Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 11:26:35 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09344 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:26:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29853; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:23:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:19:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29239 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from multi13.netcomi.com (dkdalton@multi13.netcomi.com [204.58.155.213]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29231 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:19:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dkdalton@localhost) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id KAA01837; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:19:20 -0600 Received: from onelist.com (www.onelist.com [209.207.164.157]) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id KAA01831 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:19:18 -0600 Received: (qmail 21251 invoked by uid 99); 16 Dec 1998 16:28:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 21444 invoked from network); 16 Dec 1998 15:33:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca) (136.159.244.11) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 1998 15:33:02 -0000 received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ940797; Wed, 16 Dec 98 08:28:47 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA81340; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:28:41 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:28:41 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Old-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Cc: John Bower , greenbuilding , iaq@onelist.com Message-Id: Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact iaq-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [iaq] Re: GBlist: This Old (Green) House X-Loop: dkdalton@aztecenvironmental.com To: aztecfw@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5313 From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" ______________________________________________________________________ John: Further to your recent note on the above, you may be interested in a paper that was delivered to health inspectors outlining most of the indoor environmental (not only air) features of our demonstration project. I could fax it to you, if you are interested. The most recent articles on this project (general description) can be found in the 2nd last issues of "EnvironmentaI Design & Construction" and "Environmental Building News", in case you want to find out more right away. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), - in full-time professional practice since 1976, environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- << We are putting together a 13 episode on building a Healthy House. The focus is on indoor air quality. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the week: "CARB - Indoor Air Quality Projects in Progress" http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm "Indoor Air Quality Personal Exposure Assessment Program" http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor/indoor.htm A publication of the Research Division of the California Air Resources Board ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 11:26:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09353 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:26:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29879; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:23:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:20:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29327 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:20:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from multi4.netcomi.com (rjbynum@multi4.netcomi.com [204.58.155.204]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29281 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:20:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from rjbynum@localhost) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id KAA30231; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:19:44 -0600 Received: from onelist.com (www.onelist.com [209.207.164.157]) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id KAA30223 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:19:42 -0600 Received: (qmail 21251 invoked by uid 99); 16 Dec 1998 16:28:20 -0000 Received: (qmail 21444 invoked from network); 16 Dec 1998 15:33:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca) (136.159.244.11) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 16 Dec 1998 15:33:02 -0000 received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ940797; Wed, 16 Dec 98 08:28:47 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA81340; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:28:41 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:28:41 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Old-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Cc: John Bower , greenbuilding , iaq@onelist.com Message-Id: Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact iaq-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [iaq] Re: GBlist: This Old (Green) House X-Loop: rbynum@usenergycontrols.com To: rjbynum@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5314 From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" ______________________________________________________________________ John: Further to your recent note on the above, you may be interested in a paper that was delivered to health inspectors outlining most of the indoor environmental (not only air) features of our demonstration project. I could fax it to you, if you are interested. The most recent articles on this project (general description) can be found in the 2nd last issues of "EnvironmentaI Design & Construction" and "Environmental Building News", in case you want to find out more right away. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), - in full-time professional practice since 1976, environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- << We are putting together a 13 episode on building a Healthy House. The focus is on indoor air quality. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the week: "CARB - Indoor Air Quality Projects in Progress" http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm "Indoor Air Quality Personal Exposure Assessment Program" http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor/indoor.htm A publication of the Research Division of the California Air Resources Board ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 11:40:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09708 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:40:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01109; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:37:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:33:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00758 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:33:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00750 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:33:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from eliel (1Cust171.tnt10.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.131.171]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA03074; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 08:27:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199812161627.IAA03074@swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net> X-Sender: greenbergman@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:24:19 -0800 To: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) From: David Bergman Subject: Re: GBlist: Off topic - CAD Systems Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <19981216.111131.3350.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <4.0.2.19981215162139.00b02cb0@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5315 At 10:34 AM 12/16/98 -0800, you wrote: >Hi, > >You say ayou recommend DataCad because ii is specifically geared for >architecture. As an interior designer, concerned more with things like >interior framing and elevations, would you also recommend it for my >practice? > >Beverly Weiter >Environs Interiors >Boca Raton, FL > Hi Beverly, Actually, much of my work is interiors/renovations so I'd say, yes, I'd recommend it for both. My drawings mostly consist of plans, interior and/or exterior elevations and details such as cabinetry, etc. The one area that I know it is a little deficient in is sections. The program hasn't figured out how to automatically cut the plan and generate a section, but there are workarounds and I haven't found that a major problem. Let me know if you have any other questions, Regards, David Bergman David Bergman Architects/Fire & Water Lighting bergman@cyberg.com http://cyberg.com T 212 475 3106 F 212 677 7291 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 12:36:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10500 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05420; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:33:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:29:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04747 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:29:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from saluki-mailsmtp.siu.edu (saluki-mailsmtp.siu.edu [131.230.252.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04736 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 12:29:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from saluki-mail.siu.edu (saluki-mail.siu.edu [131.230.252.17]) by saluki-mailsmtp.siu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA49300 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:29:08 -0600 Received: from ws22141.educ.siu.edu (ws22141.educ.siu.edu [131.230.22.141]) by saluki-mail.siu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA171640 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:29:24 -0600 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981216112448.0077bacc@saluki-mail.siu.edu> X-Sender: jbenshof@saluki-mail.siu.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:24:49 -0600 To: From: "John J. Benshoff" Subject: GBlist: Vent-free or vented fireplace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5316 I've just completed a 400 sq. ft. family room. It is very tightly built and attached to a house that I'd call fairly tight. We would like to install a zero clearance natural gas fireplace and I've seen both vented and unvented. Of course all the sales people assure me that the unvented have a 99%+ combustion rate and emit no harmful gases, or at least the emissions are below state/federal levels. In fact, everyone is pushing the unvented over the vented. What's the deal here? Are these fireplaces safe? Our main use/need will be esthetic, with some interest in heating. Thanks. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 14:56:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12795 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:56:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14617; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:53:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:48:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14046 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:47:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from monarch.sover.net (monarch.sover.net [209.198.87.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14042 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.9] (pm2a16.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.208]) by monarch.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA09443; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:48:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:48:45 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on monarch.sover.net) [207.136.199.9] from pm2a16.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.208] 207.136.199.208 Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:48:45 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981216112448.0077bacc@saluki-mail.siu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "John J. Benshoff" , From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Vent-free or vented fireplace Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5317 No, these unvented gas heaters are not safe. In addition to small levels of carbon monoxide, nitrous oxides, particulates, and other pollutants, they emit large quantities of water vapor--a primary combustion product. Even the manufacturers literature suggests cracking a window if using these heaters in tight houses, and avoiding their use in certain situations. Keep away from them! Alex Wilson Environmental Building News http://ww.ebuild.com p.s., you can find an in-depth article on this topic in the May-June issue of Environmental Building News (available in our E Build Library CD-ROM of back issues) At 11:24 AM -0600 12/16/98, John J. Benshoff wrote: >I've just completed a 400 sq. ft. family room. It is very tightly built >and attached to a house that I'd call fairly tight. We would like to >install a zero clearance natural gas fireplace and I've seen both vented >and unvented. Of course all the sales people assure me that the unvented >have a 99%+ combustion rate and emit no harmful gases, or at least the >emissions are below state/federal levels. In fact, everyone is pushing the >unvented over the vented. What's the deal here? Are these fireplaces >safe? Our main use/need will be esthetic, with some interest in heating. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 15:18:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13387 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:18:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16070; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:15:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:10:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15657 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:10:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from minden.netsurf.de (privat.kkf.net [212.63.32.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15653 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:10:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from privat.kkf.net (mi-dial99.privat.kkf.net [212.63.37.99]) by minden.netsurf.de (8.8.8/8.8.3) with SMTP id VAA05633 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:08:58 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199812162008.VAA05633@minden.netsurf.de> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 21:11:12 +0100 From: "Alexander.Neumann" Reply-To: "Alexander.Neumann" To: Greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Timber Framing X-Mailer: AK-Mail 3.0b [ger] (unregistered) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA15654 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5318 > how do people feel Timber Framing fits into the green/sustainable arena > ???? Well, as a carpenter I might be slightly biased, but I think it´s a pretty decent way of green building, although it pretty much depends on the way you do it, first of all what kind of wood of what origin you use, and second what other materials you use. Here in Germany we got certified wood from sustainable forestry, and all scandinavian timber is supposed to be "OK" from clearcutting concerns, other than e.g. russian timber. I definitely favor framing over any kind of brickwork (even earthen) for exterior walls for insulation value and no CO² emission, for northern europe that is. New Mexico for example would be a different story. >What if you are > using > wood from trees that had to be removed from the site ??? or recycled > timbers Even better!!! In the past few years several companies started deconstructing old buildings, mostly "tudor"framed, for selling them as a whole or in parts. I think we should abandon the idea of "trash" anyways... Yours, Alex, NWGermany ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 17:48:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15973 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:48:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA24132; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:43:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:40:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23698 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:39:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (root@kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23694 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:39:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.44 (pm1-12.hoosier.net [206.106.67.44]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA02143; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:40:06 -0500 Message-ID: <3677F06E.5BD4@ns.hoosier.net> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:40:00 +0000 From: John Bower Reply-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Discussion CC: iaq@onelist.com Subject: GBlist: healthy house TV series Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5319 I've gotten quite a few comments about our television series, so I should give you all an update. The series is to be 13 half-hour episodes. It will follow the construction of a new house from the ground up, and will discuss all health-related aspects of construction, focusing on indoor air quality. The house is actually finished and 90% of the material has been shot. We are now in the editing phase, and should have all the episodes complete within the next few months. We are financing the project ourselves, and doing all the work in-house. We've talked to some PBS distribution people but don't have any kind of firm committment from them. If the series doesn't air on PBS, there are several other possibilities on sattelite networks. We will make videos available for sale once the series airs. We would certainly be receptive if there is a company out there who would like to sponsor the series nationally. We have had a few nibbles, but need to get a committment from a network first. John -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 19:21:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA17221 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:21:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA27697; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:16:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:11:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA27388 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:10:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA27381 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1 (mck-ppp1-24.topher.net [208.199.183.230]) by mail.topher.net (8.9.0/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA26172 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:16:44 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: From: "Paul Westbrook" To: Subject: GBlist: Heat Pumps - Ground Source Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 18:11:26 -0600 Message-ID: <000201be2951$ca766880$e6b7c7d0@ns1.topher.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5320 I'm just catching up on many days of posts. I notice a distinct "northern" bias on the ground source heat pump topic. I live in Dallas and air conditioning is nearly as necessary as heat is for a northern climate. Every one around here has those noisy fan units running outside their homes already so they can air-condition. My ground source heat pump has no noisy outside unit and it also supplies my heat with no electric resistance back-up. It makes sense in my climate. I've only been in my home 2 1/2 years but I've had no problem with my unit. Well actually, there was a small problem early. My house is so efficient that one of my pumps froze up from lack of use over a several month period. It was replaced under warranty and I exercise it once a month for brief period during the mild months. So far so good on geothermal here. Regards, Paul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 22:45:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19546 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:45:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA06349; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:41:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:37:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA05580 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:37:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05576 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:37:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.30] (rkd006.acadia.net [208.244.128.30]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA09488 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:37:49 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:36:42 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Timber Framing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5321 Quote: >> how do people feel Timber Framing fits into the green/sustainable arena >> ???? end of quote The structure of a timber frame building can last for 200 years or more, making it an extremely efficient use of wood in the long run. Since the structure isn't hopelessly intertwined with plumbing, wiring, exterior shell, windows, etc., different parts of the building can be repaired or replaced as they age at various rates. (For a great explanation of buildings in time, see "How Buildings Learn," by Stewart Brand - one of the best books on architecture ever written.) Structural insulated panels (SIP's) provide excellent thermal performance. Please try to use SIP's insulated with expanded polystyrene, not extruded polystyrene, urethane foam or polyisocyanurate. Environmental Building News recently published an article on SIP's which expalins all this with characteristic excellence. If you're in a seismically active zone (are you, there in New Mexico?), it can be hard, but not impossible, to engineer the frame to withstand earthquake loads. If I were to build another home for myself (perish the thought!), I'd seriously consider a timber frame. Done well, a timber-framed structure can be very "Green". David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 22:45:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19552 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:45:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA06394; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:42:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:38:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA05595 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:37:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05587 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:37:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.30] (rkd006.acadia.net [208.244.128.30]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA09498 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:37:53 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:36:46 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: The price of oil Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5322 Speireag wrote: > As for your most incisive question (how do we move from motivation by >fear to something else), I'm afraid that I haven't the slightest. It's a >catch-22: in order to convince people that there's a problem, you must >show that it's, well, a problem. So you must point out all of the horrible >things which will happen, and that's, well, frightening. > end of quote. Sometimes. Another useful way to look at it: people act because there's a difference between their perception of the current state of affairs and their desired state of affairs. One way to perceive the current state of affairs is that we're headed toward doom, so we better change or else. But another way to motivate folks is to describe a different way of living that is just so great that they prefer it to their current one. Then you're encouraging folks not only to steer away from doom, but to embrace a far better way of life. Worth a try, anyway. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 22:45:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19556 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:45:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA06344; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:41:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:37:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA05611 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:37:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05607 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:37:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.30] (rkd006.acadia.net [208.244.128.30]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA09519 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:38:02 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:36:55 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: CAD Responses Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5323 A hearty thank you to everyone who shared ideas about CAD systems with Sarah and me. I continually touched and amazed by the intelligence and kindness of members of this list. Thanks again. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 22:55:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19631 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:55:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA06877; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:51:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:47:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA06592 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:47:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA06588 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:47:41 -0500 (EST) received: from acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.206) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ576985; Wed, 16 Dec 98 20:47:40 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA119216; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:47:38 -0700 Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:47:38 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca To: STEPHEN OFFUTT Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: There's a lot of pollution out there! In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5324 Steve: I just checked the SO2 in the little province of Alberta Canada to be 300 kilotonnes/year. If my math is similar to yours, that is 21 US#/sec. Jorg ostrowski _______________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 16 Dec 1998, STEPHEN OFFUTT wrote: > > Listers, > > I did a little exercise yesterday that surprised me somewhat, and shed some light on > how gigantic our air pollution problem really is. I thought I would share it with the group > if you don't mind. > > For Christmas this year, I bought 500 pounds of SO2 through the Clean Air > Conservancy to be retired permanently. I divvied it up into seven 70-pound portions and > mailed certificates to various family members. (Greedily keeping 10 pounds for > myself!) > > I started wondering how much that 70 pounds really was, so I sauntered down the hall > to the Acid Rain Division. Since most of my family lives in Colorado Springs, I asked for > the annual emissions of the Colorado Springs Utility's single coal-powered > plant--figuring they could relate to that more easily than the rather abstract 70 pounds. > > After whipping out my calculator, I determined that each 70-pound certificate was > offsetting about 3.9 seconds of emissions from the plant. The entire 500 pounds would > offset less than 30 seconds of emissions from this one relatively small plant, which is > currently emitting approximately 18 pounds of SO2 per second, every second, every > hour, every day, year round!! > > I was flabbergasted. I think I was expecting something more like a minute or two. I > guess we have a long way to go. Keep up the good work you are all doing, and have a > wonderful holiday. > > Best Regards, > > Steve Offutt > Climate Protection Division, EPA > > > P. S. If you want more info on the Clean Air Conservancy look here: > http://ebni.com/clean_air/ > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 22:56:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19649 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:56:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA01095; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:24:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA00717 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:24:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA00713 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:24:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from myrtle.rtpnc.epa.gov by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26439) with ESMTP id <0F42000OGLB0ZV@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:57:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26438) with SMTP id <0F42008OJFSF07@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:14:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:14:19 -0500 Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 11:11:15 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: There's a lot of pollution out there! To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5325 Listers, I did a little exercise yesterday that surprised me somewhat, and shed some light on how gigantic our air pollution problem really is. I thought I would share it with the group if you don't mind. For Christmas this year, I bought 500 pounds of SO2 through the Clean Air Conservancy to be retired permanently. I divvied it up into seven 70-pound portions and mailed certificates to various family members. (Greedily keeping 10 pounds for myself!) I started wondering how much that 70 pounds really was, so I sauntered down the hall to the Acid Rain Division. Since most of my family lives in Colorado Springs, I asked for the annual emissions of the Colorado Springs Utility's single coal-powered plant--figuring they could relate to that more easily than the rather abstract 70 pounds. After whipping out my calculator, I determined that each 70-pound certificate was offsetting about 3.9 seconds of emissions from the plant. The entire 500 pounds would offset less than 30 seconds of emissions from this one relatively small plant, which is currently emitting approximately 18 pounds of SO2 per second, every second, every hour, every day, year round!! I was flabbergasted. I think I was expecting something more like a minute or two. I guess we have a long way to go. Keep up the good work you are all doing, and have a wonderful holiday. Best Regards, Steve Offutt Climate Protection Division, EPA P. S. If you want more info on the Clean Air Conservancy look here: http://ebni.com/clean_air/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 22:56:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19651 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:56:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA29953; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 20:03:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:58:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA29615 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:57:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA29611 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:57:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.84] (ka2-84.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.84]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.9.1+DND/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA00980; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:58:05 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <14640eb6.36711023@aol.com> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:52:10 -0500 To: FUnger@aol.com, Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: The price of oil Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAA29612 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5326 Sgrìobh FUnger@aol.com: > Oil was supposed to be a disappearing precious commodity by now. What's going > on? > > Why were we so wrong in our predictions? Which of the crises we are > predicting > today are blown out of proportion or merely convenient myths to support our > comfortable world views? How should we be altering our rhetoric? How > should we > be altering our world views? How can we change the politics of > environmentalism and sustainability from an agenda based on fear to an agenda > based on opportunity. Y'know, if you predict something bad, and people alter what they do so that they avoid it, they often tell you at the end that they needn't have done anything because whatever-it-was didn't happen. If you point out that they didn't get hit because they dodged, they smile wisely and discount your advice next time. On the other hand, if it's something really bad, you have a moral obligation to point it out. But on the small things, I've sometimes found it useful to make a quiet prediction, make sure that it registers, and then sit back and let people do it the way they want to. If I'm right, then they just might remember it and pay more attention next time. Sometimes they do, anyway. In this particular case, we've done some things to ameliorate the damage we did and are doing (no more foaming rivers, for instance), and so we may have pushed the payback further into the future. I really don't know enough about the situation to say that with any degree of authority, so all you who know better can stomp on me lightly, if stomp you must. When it comes right down to it, though, I have the vague impression that people found more oil than we thought was there. As for your most incisive question (how do we move from motivation by fear to something else), I'm afraid that I haven't the slightest. It's a catch-22: in order to convince people that there's a problem, you must show that it's, well, a problem. So you must point out all of the horrible things which will happen, and that's, well, frightening. > Ah, December. Time to slow down a little and stir up the green builder list > again. :) -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 16 23:10:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA19998 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:10:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA07599; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:07:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:03:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA07238 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:03:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199812170403.XAA07238@solstice.crest.org> From: ResEnergy@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:19:17 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Wisconsin home inspection licensing law Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5327 URGENT -- IMMEDIATE ACTION ALERT! In April of 1998, the Wisconsin Legislature, apparently under pressure from a powerful real-estate lobby, passed 1997 Wisconsin Act 81 requiring the licensing of all individuals who do home inspections. Even if you do not live or work in Wisconsin, this legislation could be an important model for a future take-over of our industry by those who fail to recognize whole-house interactive nature of building performance the variety and importance of the services we provide. PLEASE CIRCULATE THIS NOTICE WIDELY, POST IT, FAX IT, OR E-MAIL When we first heard of this law, it seemed to be merely an added bureaucratic hassle and expense which would assure an avoidance of a conflict of interest or keep convicted felons from gaining access to our homes. When the proposed rules associated with this law were finally published, however, it became apparent that this action has the distinct possibility of putting us building performance contractors and building scientists and inspectors out of business and severely limiting the public's access to hard, reliable information about the performance of their homes. The law applies essentially to everyone except state code officials and contractor preparing bids for work they plan on performing. All of us who provide private or public services to existing homeowners, do field research, do quality control post retrofit inspections, Anyone who inspects buildings, performs energy audits, weatherization inspections, HERRS ratings, housing research, blower door analysis, infrared scanning, heating system efficiency/safety checks, renewable energy design, non-licensed architectural or engineering analysis, remodeling design or post-retrofit quality control inspections, etc. There are two schools of thought regarding home inspections. The one camp is represented by several national associations and franchises. They serve primarily the new purchase market and usually perform essentially visual inspections of readily accessible building elements and catalogue the presence and apparent condition of each element. The other camp, represented by the building performance contractors, researchers and energy auditors, relies much more on scientific measurements and the identification of the interactions among building elements. The Home Inspector Advisory Committee which is responsible for drafting the rules by which this law is to be enforced, is clearly of the first camp and they have applied standards that serve only one subsector of the home inspection and real-estate industry. The Advisory Committee has required all home inspectors to "observe and describe" in writing "the type and condition" of over 50 major building element categories whether or not there is any problem present that needs attention. The list of elements takes up over six pages and includes everything from roof covering materials to garage door openers and pipe supports. The list is either irrelevant or grossly inadequate depending on the goal of the analysis. The fact that this law and rule make absolutely no reference requiring or even recognizing any of the important housing performance issues (efficiency, health and safety, interactive nature of building component systems, etc)with which we are all so passionately concerned implies that the supporters of this legislation have either operated out of ignorance or intend to co-opt meaningful building performance evaluation under the rubric of greasing the wheels of the real estate transaction process by reducing the quality and value of information available to the homeowner to the lowest common denominator. A home inspector may not include a disclaimer or limitation of liability against damages for any act or omission or failure to comply with the standards of practice as prescribed by the rules. You may be inspecting a home for a HERRS rating or be asked to do an infrared scan as a quality control check on an insulation contractor, but if you failed to record that a floor joist under a porch was rotted and an accident occurred within two years, you could be held liable for negligence! I accept the requirement to be licensed and meet certain professional standards such as no conflict of interest. I do not accept the redefinition of my business to match the mold of one specialized, ingrown, sector of the business. By requiring us to comply with their limited (and in my opinion) not very useful method of observation and reporting, we will, of necessity, have either to divert resources away from the more meaningful services of building diagnostics and homeowner education, or, in order to meet the standards of both our profession and that of the national franchises, price ourselves out of the market, leaving homeowners and prospective homeowners with no other choice for professional guidance other than the checklist/component-based approach represented by this legislation. A hearing on these rules will be held on Thursday December 17 at 1pm in Room 180 1400 East Washington Ave, Madison. This is far too soon for most of you to attend, but written comments can be made up until January 4, 1999 to the Division of Licensure and Regulation , Office of Administrative Rules, PO Box 8935, Madison, WI 53708. If you live in Wisconsin, please send a copy of your letter or testimony to your local Senate and Assembly representatives. I encourage letters of support to be sent from interested parties even outside of Wisconsin. It is our industry at stake here and we need your support. The home inspection/building performance industry has made incredible technical strides over the last quarter century. We no longer have to rely on mere visual inspections and guess-and-by-golly assumptions about what's going on in houses. With support from state, federal and international organizations, we have introduced a wide arsenal of diagnostic tools and new levels of technical understanding of how buildings work. And Wisconsin has been on the forefront of this revolution. Its weatherization programs, utilities, and governmental departments were among the first to absorb and promote the new technologies and approaches to home analysis. However, the technology is still young. At dozens of conferences annually, technicians and researchers debate the accuracy, techniques and results of our vast field research. New tools and techniques are introduced every year. What was gospel last year is superceded by new understanding the next. On April 19-24, over one thousand home inspectors from all over the US, Canada and several other countries will assemble in Madison, Wisconsin for the 13th annual Affordable Comfort Conference to continue the dialogue on how best to serve our clients in achieving safe, affordable and durable homes. Will we have to tell the assembled professionals that it is illegal for them to provide their service in the state of Wisconsin? The attempt to stifle this dynamic movement through regulation, reducing our methods and discoveries to a simple checklist to satisfy the desires of a real-estate industry which is unwilling to educate itself or share the liability to the complexities of building technology or systems performance is comparable to the suggestion from the New Jersey legislator to require licensing and state-mandated testing for computer programmers. As such, they became the laughing-stock of the regulatory community. Let us not make the same mistake in Wisconsin. I AM NOT A LAWYER and this should not be considered legal advice. These notes are made in preparation for my own testimony before the rules committee, and I hope they may help you understand what we are up against. You can get your own copy of the law and proposed rules from Clete Hansen at the Division of Licensure and Regulation at (608) 267-3816 or fax (608) 267-3816 or e-mail at . Alternately I could send you electronic versions of the documents as e-mail attachments. Thank you for your interest and support. Tom Wilson Residential Energy Services PO Box 124 Fairchild, WI 54741 Phone & Fax (715) 334-2271 e-mail resenergy@aol.com Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 01:36:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA21505 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:36:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA11722; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:33:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:29:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA11434 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:28:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA11430 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 01:28:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip16.ivnet.net [206.101.73.176]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01410; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:17:59 -0800 Message-ID: <3678A3AF.40CA19F0@ivnet.net> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:24:47 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GrenSheltr@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Timber Framing References: <27a6b6af.3677adfb@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5328 My feeling is that timber framing should be avoided because of the larger dimensions. If you have to cut a lot of big trees for your house, maybe that is not a suitable site. If you can use salvaged timber I would have no great problem with it, tho it seems you could maybe mill the timbers to stick sizes and do more with less. There's no real reason that a stick-framed house couldn't last hundreds of years, if built intelligently. And if advances in building technology don't relegate it to the pile of old fossils. Cheap R-100 walls might do that, for example. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon GrenSheltr@aol.com wrote: > > how do people feel Timber Framing fits into the green/sustainable arena ???? > Is it to be aoided because it uses larger timbers ??? What if you are using > wood from trees that had to be removed from the site ??? or recycled timbers > ??? Linda Lloyd > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 02:28:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA21954 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:28:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA15371; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:25:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:21:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA15157 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:21:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [209.210.78.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA15153 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 02:21:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from nistone (usr24.cwo.com [207.173.11.24]) by mail.cwo.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA01345 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 23:27:31 -0800 Message-ID: <008901be298d$fb1d94e0$110badcf@nistone> Reply-To: "Nehemiah I. Stone" From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: oil availability Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 22:47:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5329 Concerning: " >Oil was supposed to be a disappearing precious commodity by now. >What's going on? Check out the very interesting special report in Scientific American (March 1998), "The End of Cheap Oil". The authors, two of the most respected geologists in the oil industry, contend that "global production of conventional oil will begin to decline sooner than most people think, probably within 10 years." AND, for a balance, check out the California Energy Commission's analysis of article and the calculations that went into it. In addition to what you'll find therein, (a) the authors of the article are not, as was stated, "two of the most respected geologists in the oil industry." They are, by many accounts, on the fringe. (b) the chief problem with their analysis and indeed the doom and gloom prophesies of the seventies that began all this thread, is that they based the supply and demand forecasts on too static of metrics. Technology changes. The price of technology changes. New discoveries are made almost daily. Some of the discoveries dwarf the the largest deposits crrently in the knowledge banks. We can expect these factors to continue, yet most statements about hos quickly we will run out of fossil fuels begin with qualifiers like, "at our present rate of growth in demand, " or "given all known oil reserves." The fact is that oil supplies will someday have to start shrinking. Demand may popssibly outstrip supply for a short period. But as virtually any economist will tell you, we will not "run out of oil." It will get too expensive to waste as we currently are. By that time other sources of energy will look economically much more viable than they do today, and oild demand will therefore not continue to grow; it will be economically allocated to its highest, best uses (beware, rant coming!) instead of being frittered away in jet skis and off road destruction derbies. Another fossile fuel, coal, may almost completely replace natural gas for electricity generation. Right now coal plants are dirty - about the dirtiest generation fuel used. But the technology exists to clean them up to be no more polluting than NG. Why isn't it used? Too expensive. But will it still be too expensive when the price of natural gas, because of eventual supply/demand shifts, increases two-fold? Probably not. The problem with the doom-and-gloom forecasts is that they most often do not pan out and the credibility of those focused on the real problems of squandering irreplaceable resources, are damaged in the process. Those who approach the forecasting of eventual scarcity with the intellectual commitment to suggest answers, not just problems, gain in stature (a'la Amory Lovins). But only if they offer solutions that can work within the framework of an economy that is fueled more than anything by self-interest. If you need proof of that, just notice that Americans willingly and eagerly began switching to more fuel efficient and appropriately sized vehiclesuntil it became apparent that oil, and therefore gasoline, prices were not going up. Then, the era of the SUV dawned. There is likely enough oil to maintain low prices for another couple decades; enough to allow anothe couple decades of scaling back on oil use and switching to the next fuel; and enough to "last" well into a few generations past those living today. There's enough coal to "meet our generation needs" for most if not all of the next century. Enough natural gas known and being discovered to to allow it to remain the industrial fuel of choice well into the middle of the coming century. What we really need to be concerned about is whether there is enough water the way we are depleting some reserves and spoiling others. ... and eventually, whether there is enough food or room. The greatest environmental hazard we face is our population's own shear size and rate of growth. I haven't yet figured out if there are too f__king many people, or too many people f__king. Fortunately, population growth is a self-limiting problem. Unfortunately, it's one with very ugly limiting mechanisms. I think I just put too much weight on my soapbox. end of rant. Nehemiah ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 03:17:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA22294 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 03:17:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA16366; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 03:13:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 03:09:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA16080 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 03:09:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA16076 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 03:09:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.102]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 6993700 ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:26:02 -0800 Message-ID: <3678BBD3.441F9F99@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:07:48 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GrenSheltr@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Timber Framing References: <27a6b6af.3677adfb@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5330 Having had numerous contradictory opinions and experiences with this I can't help but respond. -Using large dimension lumber may reduce the amount of wood used. I say 'may' because typically a north american timber framed home is a luxury object and is often either 'overbuilt' from a structural point of view or incorporates detailing or framing members that are purely aesthetic. Minimizing the wood used to its structural purpose has to become a strong criteria for wood reduction to be realized. Its interesting to look at the history of timber frame because much of the design evolution was in response to severe lumber shortages. As a timber framed house generally uses point supports it opens up the potential for a number of other green options for sensitive siting and foundation options i.e. -Keeping a piece of wood in as large a form as possible maximizes potential for its re-use, however the cutting of timbers often utilizes a log less efficiently than the standard frame material milling practices. There are many contradictions here as the milling of timbers is most often a small operation by a custom mill or even portable mills. Large cutting mills have become extremely efficient at maximizing log use and utilizing waste. Their employees also tend to be union and thereby somewhat protected from the ravages of the work and the economy. Small mills tend to be wasteful and polluting (sawdust in concentration, especially cedar is basically a toxic waste. The NW is covered in mountainous polluting remains of mills from this last century. Small mills often tend to be staffed by underpaid and underinsured and protected workers. The better ones are staffed by more idealistic people often willing to exploit themselves for a period of time. -Timber frame material does not have to come from large logs. Frame material has to meet certain standards and is typically derived from material that either boxes the heart (center) of the tree or is free of heart. My experience is with 2nd growth trees which easily provide quite nice boxed heart posts and beams (one of the few good uses for 2nd growth actually other than pulp or leaving it living). Trees of approximately 50-80 years of age are of a good size for this and there is a good relationship here between their age and the realistic lifespan of a timber frame house. -Using wood from a site can be a good option. If the site is somewhat forested and the milling is done on site this becomes more ideal from a sustainable tree harvesting perspective but if planned poorly can be destructive both of the site and the material. Often trees on a site may be too poor or of too good quality - the option here is to make them available for their best use and trade for material that is appropriate to the purpose. One of the problems of homeowner forestry projects is often greed. Many of the clients I've worked with become a little more materialistic and a little less green when confronted with the potential worldly worth of trees and the temptation is strong to reduce ones mortgage. -I've probably been a curmudgeon on this list before about recycled lumber material. I don't think we have the standards in place to discern what we are talking about here and doubt we will as long as buy and sell are the governing conditions. Wood absorbs and can concentrate the materials that were used on it during its lifetime. A friend thought their maple wood flooring from the demolition of a department store was wonderful after they scraped the adhesive from it (from successive floors) to me it was a material that had absorbed a centuries worth of cleaning products and worse. This is probably an extreme view but at a point where people are becoming increasingly sensitized I think this will become an issue, after the fact. One of the big problems here is that much of this lumber (especially timbers) is coming from older industrial sites. (We don't have a heritage of timbered residential building in NA). -One of the biggest problem in timber framed designs as they are evolving is redundancy. SIP's have become a standard for insulating and on their own can supply the load bearing and bracing generally required by the building. Often interior walls end up potentially providing much of the support required for floors or roof elements. This leaves the roof and even here SIP's are generally not exploited for their full value. The argument for an independent frame with integrity to last the centuries seems to me an excuse for excess. I would not want to be someone who inherits any building from the 1990's in the 2190's. I think our goal should be leaving something to build with and someplace to build it in and in the meantime work to improve the practice that builds it. Sorry for thoughts that become too much of a lecture. John GrenSheltr@aol.com wrote: > how do people feel Timber Framing fits into the green/sustainable arena ???? > Is it to be aoided because it uses larger timbers ??? What if you are using > wood from trees that had to be removed from the site ??? or recycled timbers > ??? Linda Lloyd > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 05:08:20 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA22991 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:08:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA18814; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:04:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:00:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA18614 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA18610 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 05:00:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.101.107]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA13939 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:04:40 +0000 Message-ID: <3678D057.993EC0AC@which.net> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 09:35:20 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: There's a lot of pollution out there! X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5331 Can I ask what the Clean Air Conservancy is? Malcolm Scott STEPHEN OFFUTT wrote: I did a little exercise yesterday that surprised me somewhat, and shed some light on how gigantic our air pollution problem really is. I thought I would share it with the group if you don't mind. For Christmas this year, I bought 500 pounds of SO2 through the Clean Air Conservancy to be retired permanently. I divvied it up into seven 70-pound portions and mailed certificates to various family members. (Greedily keeping 10 pounds for myself!) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 10:20:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26042 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:20:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26756; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:13:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:07:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26300 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:07:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26296 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:07:41 -0500 (EST) From: Schawe@aol.com Received: from Schawe@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 1GPIa10799 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:06:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:06:25 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Tubular Skylights Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5332 Hi listers; Anyone have any experience with the "reflective pipe tube skylights" being advertised these days(Sun Scope, Tubular Skylights,etc.)? I am especially interested in their daylighting claims and the near unbelievable R-value 'No Heat Gain' statements. ----- i.e. from Tubular Skylights: "98.7 Color Rendering Index Full Spectrum Light less the harmful UV rays" "Unit insulation value = R-22" (ed. -if this is true I need to replace my whole roof with 'em) I am pretty sure I am going to use them due to the obvious benefits inherent with daylighting. I'm more interested in any specific product recommendations or experience. Right now I am leaning towards the Tubular Skylight product. TIA, Phil Schawe ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 10:39:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA26273 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:39:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27957; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:35:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:30:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27608 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:30:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27604 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:30:36 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ665746; Thu, 17 Dec 98 08:30:26 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA42352; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:30:24 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:30:24 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Schawe@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Tubular Skylights In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5333 We have experience with several makes in both commercial and residential projects in cold climates if that interests you. We have retrofitted one with greatly improved performance. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 Schawe@aol.com wrote: > Hi listers; > > Anyone have any experience with the "reflective pipe tube skylights" being > advertised these days(Sun Scope, Tubular Skylights,etc.)? I am especially > interested in their daylighting claims and the near unbelievable R-value 'No > Heat Gain' statements. > > ----- i.e. from Tubular Skylights: > > "98.7 Color Rendering Index > Full Spectrum Light less the harmful UV rays" > > "Unit insulation value = R-22" > (ed. -if this is true I need to replace my whole roof with 'em) > > I am pretty sure I am going to use them due to the obvious benefits inherent > with daylighting. I'm more interested in any specific product recommendations > or experience. Right now I am leaning towards the Tubular Skylight product. > > TIA, > Phil Schawe > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 11:07:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26771 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:07:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29761; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:04:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:59:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29148 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:59:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29140 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:59:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DWPBRZPR; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:57:03 EST To: OFFUTT.STEPHEN@epamail.epa.gov, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:02:00 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: There's a lot of pollution out there! Message-ID: <19981217.110201.6542.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,8-12 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5334 Steve, Nevertheless, I applaud your idea. If you take into consideration not only the 30 seconds, but also the tree you saved by not wrapping something, the raw materials you saved by not buying a gift they may or may not have used, the energy (and thus additional pollution) not used to manufacture and transport the gifts you didn't buy and the energy you didn't use to drive to the mall to shop etc. I think you got more than your 30 seconds worth. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors, Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 11:24:41 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA27098 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:24:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00884; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:21:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:16:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00451 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:15:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00447 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:15:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA14907; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:16:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA15156; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:16:10 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:16:10 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Schawe@aol.com Cc: "Ross M. Donald" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Tubular Skylights In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5335 Dear Phil Schawe, Would you have any contact info on the suppliers, and/or preferably, manufacturers of these items? I have designed and built-in many site built light monitors, clerestory windows, "solar" skylites, light shelves, solar water walls, solar attics, etc. and many of these rooftop solarization projects are like H.H. Richardson's "eyelids" run amuck. There is, I believe, an inevitable trend toward standardization, especially as discoveries are made, as to what works, and the good ideas are confirmed by their market success. What doesn't work gets shaken out. (All my air heating collectors are in standard 4' x 8' modules; all my passive solar is around 46"/36" x 76" stock sliding glass door size lites.) Its not quite a matter of whether we should be "reinventing the wheel," or not. I like wheels, wheels work, let's have more wheels, and as many as reasonable; but creativity ought to take us, as designers and builders, to a point where we can settle into something of a predictable routine, where we know that we have things that work, if we stay within certain guidelines. And then, after a period of invention, we need to reduce our risk by replicating the best performing systems, through standard practise and a ready supply of manufactured components. This "industrialization" may be necessary, if we are to advance the implementation of "solar rooftops" as an "emerging technology." Yours truly, Ross I know, blah, blah, blah... encl: On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 Schawe@aol.com wrote: > Hi listers; > > Anyone have any experience with the "reflective pipe tube skylights" being > advertised these days (Sun Scope, Tubular Skylights,etc.)? I am especially > interested in their daylighting claims and the near unbelievable R-value 'No > Heat Gain' statements. > > ----- i.e. from Tubular Skylights: > > "98.7 Color Rendering Index > Full Spectrum Light less the harmful UV rays" > > "Unit insulation value = R-22" > (ed. -if this is true I need to replace my whole roof with 'em) > > I am pretty sure I am going to use them due to the obvious benefits inherent > with daylighting. I'm more interested in any specific product recommendations > or experience. Right now I am leaning towards the Tubular Skylight product. > > TIA, > Phil Schawe > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > Please, add the following to your mailing list, and send press releases, announcements, and notices of interest to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 For edited news you can RE-use, e-mail the message: "subscribe er-list" (for the Environmental Review) and/or "subscribe solar_utilities" (for Solar Utilities.) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 11:39:01 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA27353 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01718; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:35:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:30:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01311 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:30:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01307 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:30:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DWPDNSCD; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:30:14 EST To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:35:23 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Timber Framing Message-ID: <19981217.113524.6542.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-5,8-9,16-17,19-20,22-27 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5336 David et al, I am not a builder, so excuse my ignorance. You say a timber frame is green because it lasts for so long. My assessment on the issue is the opposite. Timber can burn, rot, be blown down by hurricanes etc. One the other hand, masonry may be more energy intensive in the early stage, but castles still stand, as do many old brick and stone structures. I have lived in both wood frame (Vermont) and masonry and by in large the masonry seems more secure and durable. Here in Florida, concrete block withstands hurricanes better than wood (the weak area is usually the roof, not the walls), in my travels through Great Britain, France and Germany I saw many stone or brick structures that had been around for a long time and even in Vermont there are many old brick structures still standing and looking good. Yet another factor, there seems to be considerably more maintenance in wood structures. This is just based more on observation - perhaps you can explain why you feel otherwise. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 11:56:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA27724 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:56:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02582; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:52:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:47:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02208 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:47:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02196 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:47:38 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id XTFZa11949 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:42:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:42:44 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Timber Framing Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5337 In a message dated 98-12-17 11:32:23 EST, environs.com@juno.com writes: << I am not a builder, so excuse my ignorance. You say a timber frame is green because it lasts for so long. My assessment on the issue is the opposite. >> I have appreciated the comments about Timber Framing and whether it is green/sustainable or not --- the house I was specifically referring to will be timber frame with straw bale infill - and not a phoo phoo timber frame with lots of extra details just to be fancy Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 12:31:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA28458 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:31:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04547; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:27:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:22:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04084 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:22:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04075 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:22:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DWPGH3BP; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:20:05 EST To: OFFUTT.STEPHEN@epamail.epa.gov, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:25:06 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: There's a lot of pollution out there! -Reply Message-ID: <19981217.122506.6542.3.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-4,8-9,11-15 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5338 Steve, Considering where you work and the fact that you are on this list I never thought you felt discouraged - only a bit diasappointed. I forgot to mention one more point. While you may only have saved 30+ seconds, if more people joined you in the effort the seconds could add up to a significant span of time. Hopefully more people will follow your example. With that in mind, how does one go about doing just that? I would be interested in following suit. Beverly Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 14:07:53 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00102 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:07:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11882; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:04:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:58:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA11119 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:58:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11115 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:58:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.36] (rkd012.acadia.net [208.244.128.36]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA00988 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:58:37 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:57:34 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Timber Framing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5339 >David et al, > >I am not a builder, so excuse my ignorance. You say a timber frame is >green because it lasts for so long. My assessment on the issue is the >opposite. Beverly wrote: >Timber can burn, rot, be blown down by hurricanes etc. One the other >hand, masonry may be more energy intensive in the early stage, but >castles still stand, as do many old brick and stone structures. > >I have lived in both wood frame (Vermont) and masonry and by in large the >masonry seems more secure and durable. Here in Florida, concrete block >withstands hurricanes better than wood (the weak area is usually the >roof, not the walls), in my travels through Great Britain, France and >Germany I saw many stone or brick structures that had been around for a >long time and even in Vermont there are many old brick structures still >standing and looking good. > >Yet another factor, there seems to be considerably more maintenance in >wood structures. > >This is just based more on observation - perhaps you can explain why you >feel otherwise. end of quote. Beverly, I don't feel otherwise. Sorry to have been unclear. My point was that a timber strucutre can, in certain cases, be built to last a long time, and may be an efficient use of wood. But my main point was that it seems like a good idea to make buildings that age well, so they remain adaptable and flexible. Because the "skin" and "services" of a timber frame building are separate from the basic structure, the building can evolve, instead of becoming obsolete and demolished in 30 years. This is Stewart Brand's argument in "How Buildings Learn". In many cases, the same argument would apply to a masonry building. Masonry is a great choice for many cultures and bioregions. I'm a bit worried about its embodied energy and suitability to earthquake zones, though. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 14:08:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00109 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:08:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11890; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:04:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:58:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA11133 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:58:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11126 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:58:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.36] (rkd012.acadia.net [208.244.128.36]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA00999 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:58:42 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:57:39 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Timber Framing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5340 John Salmen wrote that many timber frames have redundant or wasteful structure. Don't know about that, but we had an interesting experience with a recent project, part of which is a timber frame. For the frame, engineering analyis showed the need for certain size beams. In many cases, the timber framers asked to increase the size of the beam, to have enough "meat" left for an adequately sized mortise-and-tenon joint. We suggested keeping the beams smaller and connecting them with metal plates. Well, the clients and the timber framers just about had a cow. Our clients, an organic-farming advocacy group, said "Traditional farmers always used mortise and tenon joints!" We replied, "That's because they didn't have steel plates. If they had, they would have used 'em." Needless to say, tradition won out, and I must say, the frame is really beautiful. Still, it has a lot more wood in it than it needs to. And as the architects, Sarah and I felt strange advocating practicality, reduced cost, etc., with the client and contractors arguing for tradition, aesthetics, etc. Kind of a fun role reversal. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 14:23:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00355 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:23:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12537; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:12:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:08:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12162 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:08:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from halifax.chebucto.ns.ca (halifax.chebucto.ns.Ca [192.75.95.75]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12158 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from corson@localhost by halifax.chebucto.ns.ca id <32525-949>; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:08:46 -0400 Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:08:46 -0400 (AST) From: Jennifer Corson To: Vernon LeCount cc: Daniel Dancer , greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: This Old (Green) House In-Reply-To: <3675F976.FB93AA7D@cityweb.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5341 GB Gang, Couldn't help from mentioning our tv series which is being aired in Canada. The Resourceful Renovator, 65 half hour episodes, is tongue-and-cheek called a "This Old House Gone Green on a Budget". Every story that we filmed, from over 150 locations on the East Coast, have an example of economy, environment or health as the integral story-line. I am the host of the program and we featured builders, renovators, homeowners, craftspeople and experts in the field. Some of our guests included Steve Loken, Oliver Drerup, Terry Marshall. Some of our stories included: hot water heating, straw bale homes, masonry heaters, passive solar homes, off-grid living, infill housing, products for the environmentally sensitive.... Our website has been quite successful. You can check it out at www.ocean.ca/renovator/ We taped for three summers, (95-97). We had some (minimal) financial assitance from CMHC and Environment Canada. We did some initial looking for sponsorship though were concerned as to the restraints that a product sponsor can have on content and locations. We relied upon the Broadcasting License and the Film Program Tax Credits that apply to labour. If you are acquiring some assistance in formulating a proposal for networks, you can email me directly at the above address. I'd be interested to hear your feedback if you get a chance to view in on the LIFE network, or have a look at our website. Jennifer Corson *************************** at Solterre Design, PO Box 36032, Halifax, Nova Scotia B3J 3S9 at The Renovator's ReSource Inc., 5249 Smith Street, Halifax, NS, B3H 1M3 at Pick and Shovel Productions, Ste. 404, 1657 Barrington St, Halifax Phone (902) 492-1215, Fax (902) 425-6795 E-Mail: corson@chebucto.ns.ca *************************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 14:31:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00519 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:31:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13532; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:27:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:24:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13222 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:24:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13217 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:24:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from myrtle.rtpnc.epa.gov by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26439) with ESMTP id <0F44008QLHTQ44@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:53:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26438) with SMTP id <0F4400GKPHD9N0@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:43:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:43:33 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 13:40:02 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: There's a lot of pollution out there! - Clean Air Conservancy To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5342 GB Listers and Beverly, My original post had a URL for the Clean Air Conservancy. Here it is again. http://ebni.com/clean_air/ Regards, Steve >>> Beverly A. Weiter 12/17/98 03:25pm >>> Steve, . . . (snip) I would be interested in following suit. Beverly Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 14:40:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00643 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:40:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14168; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:37:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:33:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13868 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:33:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13864 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 14:33:36 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ976540; Thu, 17 Dec 98 12:32:33 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA67872; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:31:58 -0700 Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 12:31:58 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Renewable News Network Cc: Schawe@aol.com, "Ross M. Donald" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Tubular Skylights In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5343 You said:"(All my air heating collectors are in standard 4' x 8' modules; all my passive solar is around 46"/36" x 76" stock sliding glass door size lites.)" __________________________________________________________________________ Ross: Without making it a blatant advertisement, can you simply decribe the above? Are they commercially available for what kind of applications? Thanks you for considering my request. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 15:18:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01236 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:18:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16762; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:14:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:10:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16268 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:10:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from srunet.sru.edu (srunet.sru.edu [192.148.234.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16262 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:10:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from phoenix.sru.edu ([205.149.64.44] helo=rockmail.sru.edu) by srunet.sru.edu with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for greenbuilding@crest.org id 0zqjlp-0004wJ-00; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:11:37 -0500 Received: from oemcomputer ([208.231.49.23]) by rockmail.sru.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with SMTP id AAA1652 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:10:32 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981217200844.006985f4@rockmail.sru.edu> X-Sender: jdt4006@rockmail.sru.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:08:44 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Jeremy Truog Subject: GBlist: Re: Tubular Skylights Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5344 >Would you have any contact info on the suppliers, and/or preferably, >manufacturers of these items? I have had some limited experience with these solar tubes at a non-profit organization that I used to work for. We had one that was donated by a company in Holland, MI, called Sunspots LTD. The product was called a "Solatube". I'll have to dig a little more to find their address, but here's a phone number for them: 1-800-588-3130 Hope this helps, Jeremy Truog ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 15:40:14 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01671 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:40:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA17992; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:35:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:31:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17598 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:31:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17593 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:31:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-9-195.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.9.195]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA14355 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:31:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36796BA4.418A81F8@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:37:56 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: GBList Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------14A0004812283DEBA7E07D9E" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5345 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------14A0004812283DEBA7E07D9E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, This is my first posting, been lurking for a bit. I have been doing a lot of thinking recently about why building are the way they are and I find it very frutsrating that buildings aren't generally built for change or upgrade. Basically an extension of the 'life-cycle' costing model that takes into account the ease or difficutly of change. (i.e. ripping down dry-wall and putting it up again instead of a removable wallboard system that would be cleaner, less interruptive, reusable resource, etc, etc.) I think of the retrofit issues facing the old victorians in my neighbourhood and I don't want to create that same nightmare for future generations. I have been thinking for example that external walls and floors should be the entire 'supporting' structure and for insulation purposes. That internal walls should be easy to move around. And that mechanicals and services should be exposed or if they need to be hidden (sound sight safety concerns) in even another structure. Or the idea of removable wall board over 'service' conduits. Is there any good resources on this topic that anyone could point me to so that I could learn what others think about these issues. Is there a term for this kind of thinking or approach. Thanks alot. P.S. Anyone in TO (Toronto) who needs the help of a novice (am/was a software consultant) for cheap labour, to work on any green building projects in the area can contact me at my e-mail address. I would love to trade some labour for learning. -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" --------------14A0004812283DEBA7E07D9E Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="nspiegel.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Neil Spiegel Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="nspiegel.vcf" begin:vcard n:Spiegel;Neil x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;;Toronto;Ontario;M5R 3E9;Canada version:2.1 email;internet:nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca title:Outsourcing Technical Project Manager tel;fax:416-534-7888 tel;work:416-534-9792 note:I suggest the purple, I think it looks wonderful on you. Oh no, no, no, I should say I prefer the yellow. x-mozilla-cpt:;65535 fn:Neil Spiegel end:vcard --------------14A0004812283DEBA7E07D9E-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 15:56:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA02112 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:56:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA19121; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:53:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:49:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18712 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:48:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18708 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:48:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-09.netmeg.net [208.139.83.72]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA24374; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:49:18 -0500 Message-ID: <36796E76.BE0D473B@swinter.com> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 15:49:58 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremy Truog , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Tubular Skylights References: <1.5.4.32.19981217200844.006985f4@rockmail.sru.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5346 solatube international inc. (SOLATUBE2-DOM) 5825 avenida encinas, suite 101 carlsbad, CA 92008 US Domain Name: www.solatube.com Debra Lombard green-haus Please Visit http://home.earthlink.net/~dlombard ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 16:15:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA02517 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:15:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20214; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:12:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:09:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA19823 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:08:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19811 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:08:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.199] (ka3-199.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.199]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.8.8+DND/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28880; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:09:00 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 08:44:33 -0500 To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley), Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: The price of oil Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA19816 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5347 Sgrìobh David M. Foley: > Sometimes. Another useful way to look at it: people act because there's a > difference between their perception of the current state of affairs and > their desired state of affairs. One way to perceive the current state of > affairs is that we're headed toward doom, so we better change or else. But > another way to motivate folks is to describe a different way of living that > is just so great that they prefer it to their current one. Then you're > encouraging folks not only to steer away from doom, but to embrace a far > better way of life. > > Worth a try, anyway. That's true, and it works well if people convince easily. But suppose you present a far better way of life and people don't understand why it's better, or don't agree? Then you have to compare and contrast, which puts the current situation in a relatively poorer light, and pretty soon you're sliding down the slope to frightening people (or trying to) in order to make your point. This seems to be especially true of large issues which are potentially catastrophic, like the global environment. I'd love to have another strategy which would survive escalation of the argument (discussion), but the only other one I can think of is to opt out of the argument and live it in order to set an example. It works fine on a local level (like my opting for a composting toilet and thereby demonstrating feasible technology, I hope) but not so well in situations where if you do nothing we're all doomed. Such large issues *require* engagement, and then we're on that slope... -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 18:26:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04445 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:26:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA26969; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:23:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:19:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA26315 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:18:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA26308 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:18:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-18-138.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.131.138]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA22111; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:18:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:18:55 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE29E9.B4CB6560.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'ANovelli@aol.com'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: The price of oil Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:53:08 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5348 This oil price thing is interesting and IS GBlist related. One thing to note -- the Sci American article did not say we would run out of oil in 20 years, it said that CHEAP oil would run out. We will have access to 40 ro $80 dollar a barrel oil for some time. As many have pointed out, and I think this was discussed in the same Sci Amer article, the Canadian oil sands have more recoverable oil than all of the Middle East, but at a recovery price of 25 to 50 per barrel (depending on how much of it you want). So we wont suddenly run out of oil, it will become quickly more expensive though, and probably in the 7 to 20 yr time frame mentioned by many. As was also mentioned by others, price shocks are as much an issue of perception as relaity. If we all beleived oil would not be available then of ocurse the price would rise before it actually "ran out". My guess and hope is that we will shift from burning oil to making plastics and other high-value uses in the next 20 years. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 18:52:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA04753 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:52:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA28371; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:49:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:44:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA28061 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:44:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from kalessin.southern.co.nz (kalessin.southern.co.nz [202.37.188.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28057 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 18:44:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (mail@localhost) by kalessin.southern.co.nz (8.8.5/8.6.6.Beta6) id MAA04800; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:44:43 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from ppp017.southern.co.nz(202.37.189.17) by kalessin.southern.co.nz via smap (V2.0) id xma004783; Fri, 18 Dec 98 12:44:17 +1300 X-Sender: bywateri@southern.co.nz Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:48:25 +1200 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: bywateri@convertech.co.nz (Ian Bywater) Subject: RE: GBlist: The price of oil Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5349 John said, >My guess and hope is that we will shift from burning oil to making plastics >and other high-value uses in the next 20 years. To which I add, "and so making a transition from hydrocarbons to a carbohydrate economy." Ian Bywater ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 17 22:28:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07672 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:28:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA05399; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:25:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:21:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA05140 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:21:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05136 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:21:28 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id VLZa016640 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:03:30 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <38ef9fc2.3679c602@aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:03:30 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Timber Framing and craftsmanship Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5350 Friends, I had the priveledge of spending about a year working with the folks at Benson Woodworking Company, one of the leading timber framing companies in the world. I can tell you without hesitation that their work is not only beautiful, but is produced with a collective conciousness on the part of the entire organization that is about as progressive and environmentally responsible as any company in the world. Their work puts my own little baby steps toward sustainable building to shame. One of their answers to the joinery question that David addressed is to use some joinery developed centures ago in Japan that essentially uses splines in a way that minimizes the stregnth reduction associated with conventional western timber frame joinery and thus reduce timber sizes (when appropriate). They've also devised systems that incorporate steel without the negative aesthetics (again when appropriate) I agree with Stewart Brands assessment of the technology: that is by far one of the best ways to build homes. The problem is that in order to do it right, it requires true craftsmen rather than the typical hacks that build homes . To have novice or people with an aw screw it attitude throw together a timber frame is an almost certain recipe for an unsustainable and likely unsafe building. It is far better in my opinion for do it yourselfers and novices to stick to easy structurally redundant systems like 2 x 4's rather than all the exotic technology that seems to appeal to that crowd. At Bensons they have about 500 collective person years in dedicated life long study and practice of the craft. True masters such as that in any trade can bring to bear a level of elegance that not only looks beautiful but fits the world beautifully as well. A large part of their collective wisdom is in recognizing how truly daunting the challenge of building great buildings is. So they have collected not only some of the best timber framers and woodworkers around, but also great architects, great project managers and the leading structural engineer in the field, all assembled to bring their collective wisdom to their work. Which when compared to the ways homes are typically built, including my own projects, highlights a problem with many of our discussions and with much of our current social expectations. We have seemed to have lost the respect and value of true mastery. Everyone wants to read a book, ask a couple questions and assume they can go out and build a home or do any number of complex things after gaining only the most superficial understanding of the task before them. Everyone wants lifes gifts to come fast and cheap. Perhaps a truly sustainable world will be one in which we regain our respect for the subtle differences a true master can bring to his or her work in creating goods and services that we will value enough to make them last long and serve well. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 18 00:00:22 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA09008 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:00:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10516; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:57:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:53:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA10268 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:53:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA10264 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:53:32 -0500 (EST) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 1LYCa10802 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:53:11 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <7e484971.3679dfb7@aol.com> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 23:53:11 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: ARTICLE: Navajo Straw Bale Housing Project Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5351 Hi all - Very interesting article I thought worthy of passing along... Navajo Straw Bale Housing Project Empowers People -- Unlike the floppy straw structure of the three little pigs, a straw bale house under construction in Arizona will do a great job of staving off the icy blasts of a high desert winter. It will also serve as a symbol of sisterhood and the struggle to maintain a connection with the Earth. At least, that's the hope of the volunteers who are helping to build a hogan on Indian land in northern Arizona. Read the article at: http://www.earthtimes.org:80/nov/environmentnavajostrawbalenov13_98.htm Happy Holidays to all. Regards, Cathy Flanders IAQ List Manager & Moderator Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq IAQ Listserve (to search archives) http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/iaq Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://www.fiscorp.net/iaq/ Biohazards http://www.fiscorp.net/iaq/biohaz.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 18 00:38:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA09519 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:38:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA11900; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:35:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:31:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11635 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:31:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from edtnps05.telusplanet.net (edtnps05.telusplanet.net [198.161.157.105]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11631 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:31:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ltbrpx07-port-20.agt.net ([209.115.139.21]:1027 "HELO LOCALNAME") by edtnps05.telusplanet.net with SMTP id <525630-13096>; Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:31:28 -0700 X-Sender: gleclair@mail.telusplanet.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: gleclair@mail.telusplanet.net (Gilles Leclair) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: oil availability Message-Id: <19981218053140Z525630-13096+1871@edtnps05.telusplanet.net> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 22:31:28 -0700 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5352 Nehemiah, et. al. Thats funny Nehemiah, you just gave a perfect example of predicting a scary outcome. In looking back Fred stated... "...Why were we so wrong in our predictions? Which of the crises we are predicting today are blown out of proportion or merely convenient myths to support our comfortable world views?".... and your recent statement... "The greatest environmental hazard we face is our population's own shear size and rate of growth. I haven't yet figured out if there are too f__king many people, or too many people f__king. Fortunately, population growth is a self-limiting problem. Unfortunately, it's one with very ugly limiting mechanisms. I think I just put too much weight on my soapbox. end of rant." I'd just like to remind anyone who has bought into the '60s myth of the 'population time bomb' should take a look at the numbers and reflect on them. It is not a problem of too many people but rather too much consumption. Remember the numbers, the average North American (oh what the heck lets include the Japenese, the Australians and the majority of Europeans) who comprise no more than 20% of the world population are consuming over 80% of the worlds resources. Lets also not forget that most of those born in the slums of Africa will not drive cars, have central air conditioning or eat even a quarter of the amount of meat that their western brothers will. Nor will they buy food grown in OUR backyards at ridiculously low prices. The facts are clear enough. It is, always has been, a problem of distribution and unbalanced/unfair trade. The rhetoric is one of fear when we should be angry. Those who advocate strict population control are barking up the wrong tree. What good is preventing one Ethiopian from being born when we are consuming enough electricity to displace 350 Ethiopians? Maybe WE are the ones who should cut back. I'm certainly not afraid of repurcusions from too many people. But I do worry about our nature. To paraphrase Ghandi, "There's enough for every man's need but not for every man's greed". _____________________ Gilles Leclair gleclair@telusplanet.net Ph. (403) 732-4749 "Did you hear about the guy who was tap dancing? He broke his ankle when he fell in the sink." :>) ------------------------------------------------------ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 18 01:02:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA09661 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 01:02:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA12631; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:59:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:56:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA12382 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:55:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA12378 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:55:56 -0500 (EST) From: ANovelli@aol.com Received: from ANovelli@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id BATAa17107 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:54:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1de8794b.3679ee2b@aol.com> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 00:54:51 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: GBList: Cheap oil Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Claris Emailer v2.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5353 > That's true, and it works well if people convince easily. But suppose >you present a far better way of life and people don't understand why it's >better, or don't agree? Then you have to compare and contrast, which puts >the current situation in a relatively poorer light, and pretty soon you're >sliding down the slope to frightening people (or trying to) in order to >make your point. This seems to be especially true of large issues which >are potentially catastrophic, like the global environment. > > I'd love to have another strategy which would survive escalation of the >argument (discussion), but the only other one I can think of is to opt out >of the argument and live it in order to set an example. It works fine on a >local level (like my opting for a composting toilet and thereby >demonstrating feasible technology, I hope) but not so well in situations >where if you do nothing we're all doomed. Such large issues *require* >engagement, and then we're on that slope... This whole thread and Nehemiah's posts are excellent. I feel the biggest block to change is very often people's ego's. Most of us here have been try to sell a 'better' solution (read: "WIN/WIN") to various problems for a long time, only to run into the myriad arguments that all boil down to one thing: "If your solution is so cool, why isn't everybody doing it." I feel the money, the time, the whatever that usually gets paraded around as the reason to do the same stupid thing over and over are the way people try and avoid what they choose to set themselves up for: looking dumb, or worse. Everyone one of us has faced this teacher-in-demon's-clothing at one time or another, and likely (or eventually, as in my case) took the lesson. In fact, getting the lesson gets kind of addictive once you get over the idea that you neither have much of a chance of knowing it all, nor is that fact very personal at all. We all have so much to learn it's incredible, yet collectively we still act as brash teenagers who are a damn sight short of listening, let alone changing. Never having been a parent I can't apply any successful experiences to to extend this analogy. I would venture that collectively we've experienced the pimples, the social awkwardness, the uncomfortable physical changes, the moments of omniscience and omnipotence, and the rest of the puberty-age things we would expect. Do we have time to prepare as the realities of adulthood and the requisite responsibilities are thrust upon us? Will we lose our innocence and become cynical, narrow-minded and entrenched? Who knows. The drama is beyond anything our finest writers could construct. A few things I treat as truth though. Nobody likes to feel stupid. Nobody likes to lose. And, everybody needs love. If we can find a way to preach our sermon, live our lives, and share our wisdom and experience while making the rest of the world still feel like winners, without insulting their intelligence, and while, most of all, loving them as we would ourselves, we will surely win the day. Just don't ask me how! All best wishes, Tony Novelli Tony Novelli Development Center for Appropriate Technology PO Box 27513 Tucson, AZ 85726 ph(520) 624-6628 fax(520) 798-3701 dcat@azstarnet.com http://www.azstarnet.com/~dcat anovelli@aol.com (personal/direct e-mail) (520) 628-0942 (digital pager/voice mail) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 18 07:43:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA12618 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:43:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22095; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:40:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:36:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA21817 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:36:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21813 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.magma.ca (mail2x.magma.ca [206.191.0.220]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA26809; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:36:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (port117.magma.ca [206.191.5.117]) by mail2.magma.ca (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA08286; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:36:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199812181236.HAA08286@mail2.magma.ca> X-Sender: stephen@mail.magma.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 07:27:25 -0500 To: Schawe@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Stephen Thwaites Subject: Re: GBlist: Tubular Skylights In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5354 Although not familiar with this model, based on what i know about these (or any) skylight, i would put the R-22 claim in the probably fradudulent drawer I've seen a paper on the measured R-values of a tubular skylight and the results were in the R-1 to R-2 range. Think about it. The glazed opeing up on the roof is thermally disconnected from the plane of insulation in the ceiling. Only if the tunnel was insulated as well as your ceiling would these things approach the thermal performance of a skylight (which isn't saying much) At 10:06 AM 12/17/98 -0500, Schawe@aol.com wrote: >Hi listers; > >Anyone have any experience with the "reflective pipe tube skylights" being >advertised these days(Sun Scope, Tubular Skylights,etc.)? I am especially >interested in their daylighting claims and the near unbelievable R-value 'No >Heat Gain' statements. > >----- i.e. from Tubular Skylights: > >"98.7 Color Rendering Index >Full Spectrum Light less the harmful UV rays" > >"Unit insulation value = R-22" >(ed. -if this is true I need to replace my whole roof with 'em) > >I am pretty sure I am going to use them due to the obvious benefits inherent >with daylighting. I'm more interested in any specific product recommendations >or experience. Right now I am leaning towards the Tubular Skylight product. > >TIA, >Phil Schawe Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ottawa Ontario ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 18 08:48:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA13297 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:48:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA24291; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:45:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:41:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24003 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:41:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mkf.MKF.ORNL.GOV (mkf.ornl.gov [134.167.90.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23998 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:41:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mkfor3.mkf.ornl.gov by mkf.MKF.ORNL.GOV (NTMail 3.00.06) id aa426436 Fri, 18 Dec 98 13:44:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by mkfor3.MKF.ORNL.GOV with Microsoft Exchange (IMC 4.12.736) id <01BE2A62.007CC0D0@mkfor3.MKF.ORNL.GOV>; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:40:01 -0500 Message-ID: From: FosterCM To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Heat Pump Blues Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:39:59 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.12.736 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BE2A62.007E4770" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5355 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. Contact your mail administrator for information about upgrading your reader to a version that supports MIME. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2A62.007E4770 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have followed the heat pump threads with interest as I spend another heating season struggling to keep my 7 year old heat pump working. It appears that the computer logic boards that control the compressor are malfunctioning. I have replaced them three times in two years and things work good for a while, then the compressor starts kicking out and the emergency heat (aka money pit) kicks in. Nothing wrong with the compressor as far as I can tell and I had a capacitor installed that increases the signal from the logic board. I don't have any trouble during the cooling season. I live in Knoxville, TN where we typically have mild winters with maybe 3-4 weeks of highs below the 30 degree mark and occasional sub-zero lows. I have been considering options to heat my 1500sf home. The place is currently all electric (TVA rules here) and natural gas is not yet available. I could use LP gas or fuel oil but I have been focusing on a pellet stove insert for the fireplace. There is a return air duct in the living room where the fireplace is and when we use the fireplace and keep the central fan running the whole house stays comfortable. I have read sales literature on several pellet stove insert models but I would like comments from the group on any good/bad experiences with pellet stoves before I go shopping. Also, any alternative heating suggestions. I don't think solar will work well in my situation as the house faces west and is surrounded by very tall ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE2A62.007E4770-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 18 09:23:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13747 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25508; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:19:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:16:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25221 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:16:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25217 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:16:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA25824 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:15:37 -0600 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:13:21 -0600 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: Timber framing Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 08:13:21 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5356 > -----Original Message----- > Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:07:48 -0800 > From: John Salmen > Subject: Re: GBlist: Timber Framing > > Having had numerous contradictory opinions and experiences with this I > can't help > but respond...... > John - You made some very good points. I'm not a builder, but a couple things I've learned while reading the literature about timber framing: - Traditional joinery is beautiful, and a skill to be admired. But it ain't cheap! Figures I have seen state that the labor involved adds approx. 25% to the cost of the frame.(I can find the citation if you need it.) So, timber-framing is NOT "affordable housing". - The timbers are usually oversized, and as you stated, redundant when SIP panels are used to enclose the structure. Several decades ago, an architect by the name of Alex Wade had published several books in which he advanced the idea of "rightsizing"(not his term) the timber frame, so as not to waste any material by oversizing it. You might want to check-out his writings. - There is an alternative to solid timbers.....several companies make timbers which are laminated from 2X material. These timbers are well engineered, and have very predictable properties. Gruenwald is one of the manufacturers(I think they're in Sioux Falls, SD). As I understand it, this product is used a lot for agricultural structures. Some people might object to the aesthetics of this material, but it seems to be a very responsible way to achieve "large timber" properties without using large trees.(Actually, they look quite attractive, when they're paired with steel connectors.) My $.02-worth............ - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 18 11:05:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA15219 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:05:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00937; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:02:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:58:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00525 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:58:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00515 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:58:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA05998 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:57:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from vna-va6-43.ix.netcom.com(207.223.176.107) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma005954; Fri Dec 18 09:57:34 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981218105510.0071ce34@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:55:12 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Tubular Skylights Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5357 One of the only sites I know that has any test data on topic is HUVCO and I believe their claims are pretty well substantiated having the opportunity to review their data and claims when we helped prepare their web site. > >Anyone have any experience with the "reflective pipe tube skylights" being >advertised these days(Sun Scope, Tubular Skylights,etc.)? I am especially >interested in their daylighting claims and the near unbelievable R-value 'No >Heat Gain' statements. > >- ----- i.e. from Tubular Skylights: > >"98.7 Color Rendering Index >Full Spectrum Light less the harmful UV rays" > >"Unit insulation value = R-22" >(ed. -if this is true I need to replace my whole roof with 'em) > | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 18 11:26:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA15655 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02294; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:23:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:20:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01942 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:19:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01938 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-19.netmeg.net [208.139.83.82]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA28113; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:20:06 -0500 Message-ID: <367A80DE.1A82B975@swinter.com> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:20:46 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bion D. Howard" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Tubular Skylights References: <3.0.32.19981218105510.0071ce34@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5358 Dear Bion: Can you tell me where on the www.huvco.com website is the Test data? Debra Lombard Steven Winter Associates www.swinter.com deblombard@swinter.com Bion D. Howard wrote: > One of the only sites I know that has any test data on topic is > HUVCO and I believe their claims are pretty > well substantiated having the opportunity to review their data and > claims when we helped prepare their web site. > > > > >Anyone have any experience with the "reflective pipe tube skylights" being > >advertised these days(Sun Scope, Tubular Skylights,etc.)? I am especially > >interested in their daylighting claims and the near unbelievable R-value 'No > >Heat Gain' statements. > > > >- ----- i.e. from Tubular Skylights: > > > >"98.7 Color Rendering Index > >Full Spectrum Light less the harmful UV rays" > > > >"Unit insulation value = R-22" > >(ed. -if this is true I need to replace my whole roof with 'em) > > > | > =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services > | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal > Building Environmental Science & Technology > P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 18 11:55:59 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16130 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:55:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03561; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:52:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:49:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03150 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:48:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03146 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:48:57 -0500 (EST) From: Schawe@aol.com Received: from Schawe@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 1BUCa06003 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:48:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <54233f49.367a8753@aol.com> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:48:19 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Tubular Skylights Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5359 Hi all; Thanks for your responses on the tubular skylights, both on and off-list. Very helpful. Also, has anyone seen the rammed earth home by Rick Joy in the latest ARCHITECTURE magazine? featured on the cover, no less. I thought it was a very interesting home, although far from economical. The rammed earth in particular makes for a striking image in the photographs. Is this a babystep on the path to a more 'mainstream' aproval of this type of technology?? Questions, comments, observations . . . ? Phil Schawe ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 18 12:23:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16803 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05427; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:19:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:16:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05059 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:15:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05053 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:15:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA15961; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 11:15:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from vna-va6-43.ix.netcom.com(207.223.176.107) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma015869; Fri Dec 18 11:14:17 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981218121152.0072bd90@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:11:55 -0500 To: Debra Lombard From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: Re: GBlist: Tubular Skylights Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5360 HUVCO data location question: The link is then select "lighting efficiency data plots" on that page. --- At 11:20 AM 12/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >Can you tell me where on the www.huvco.com website is the Test data? >Debra Lombard, Steven Winter Associates | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 18 13:10:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18021 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:10:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07752; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:07:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:03:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA07476 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07472 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.54]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3054400 ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:09:11 -0800 Message-ID: <367A989F.4F5175C6@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:02:07 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Patrick Pierquet CC: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Timber framing References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5361 Timber frame or structural frame construction need not be expensive - in fact the opposite could easily be true. Isn't it a question of the size and type of market. Anything outside the industries norm does seems to consistently bear the 25%-30% more label whether it be heating system or wall system. This does not necessarily mean a 25% qualitative difference with the exception that it qualifies the owner as worth at least 25% more than the rest of the crowd. A pre-engineered, prefabricated frame structure or roof I think does make better use of material and intelligence but it excludes the everyperson (roofrack of 2x4's on a saturday afternoon)and leaves building with the factory and the trade (which may be a good thing if we are looking for better buildings). Or alternatively it puts it at the level of an Ikea kit (which may be a better thing if we are looking at leaving the public empowered somewhat and wanting better buildings). John Patrick Pierquet wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 00:07:48 -0800 > > From: John Salmen > > Subject: Re: GBlist: Timber Framing > > > > Having had numerous contradictory opinions and experiences with this I > > can't help > > but respond...... > > > John - You made some very good points. I'm not a builder, but a > couple things I've learned while reading the literature about timber > framing: > > - Traditional joinery is beautiful, and a skill to be admired. But > it ain't cheap! Figures I have seen state that the labor involved adds > approx. 25% to the cost of the frame.(I can find the citation if you need > it.) So, timber-framing is NOT "affordable housing". > > - The timbers are usually oversized, and as you stated, redundant > when SIP panels are used to enclose the structure. Several decades ago, an > architect by the name of Alex Wade had published several books in which he > advanced the idea of "rightsizing"(not his term) the timber frame, so as not > to waste any material by oversizing it. You might want to check-out his > writings. > > - There is an alternative to solid timbers.....several companies > make timbers which are laminated from 2X material. These timbers are well > engineered, and have very predictable properties. Gruenwald is one of the > manufacturers(I think they're in Sioux Falls, SD). As I understand it, this > product is used a lot for agricultural structures. Some people might object > to the aesthetics of this material, but it seems to be a very responsible > way to achieve "large timber" properties without using large > trees.(Actually, they look quite attractive, when they're paired with steel > connectors.) > > My $.02-worth............ > > - Patrick Pierquet > ppierquet@teltech.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 18 13:47:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18812 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:47:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09925; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:44:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:40:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA09594 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:40:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09590 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:40:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA00144 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:40:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from esy17.vineyard.net(206.166.158.147) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma000129; Fri Dec 18 13:40:48 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36796BA4.418A81F8@atlasinc.on.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:43:44 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: Disentanglement Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5362 Neil Spiegel wrote: >I have been thinking for example that external walls and floors should be >the entire >'supporting' structure and for insulation purposes. That internal walls >should be easy to >move around. And that mechanicals and services should be exposed or if >they need to be >hidden (sound sight safety concerns) in even another structure. Or the >idea of removable >wall board over 'service' conduits. > >Is there any good resources on this topic that anyone could point me to so >that I could >learn what others think about these issues. Is there a term for this kind >of thinking or >approach. The term is disentanglement. A good discussion: "How Buildings Learn" by Stewart Brand. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 18 13:57:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA19086 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:57:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10882; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:54:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:51:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA10379 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:50:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10369 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 13:50:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip28.ivnet.net [206.101.73.188]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14578; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:39:25 -0800 Message-ID: <367AA2F9.726C8329@ivnet.net> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 10:46:17 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Schawe@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Tubular Skylights References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5363 I just installed a Sun Tunnel. It's just a Mylar tube with a single acrylic dome and a diffuser at the bottom. I wrapped the tube in fiberglass, to minimize heat loss to the attic, but even then, no way R-20, because of the diffusion and conductance through the diffuser and the dome. Bruce Donelson A Better builder Takilma Oregon Schawe@aol.com wrote: > > Hi listers; > > Anyone have any experience with the "reflective pipe tube skylights" being > advertised these days(Sun Scope, Tubular Skylights,etc.)? I am especially > interested in their daylighting claims and the near unbelievable R-value 'No > Heat Gain' statements. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 18 17:41:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA23245 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:41:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22172; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:38:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:33:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA21445 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:33:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21441 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 17:33:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.33]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3156700 ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:41:33 -0800 Message-ID: <367AD7E0.FD5D3850@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 14:32:01 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FUnger@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Timber Framing and craftsmanship References: <38ef9fc2.3679c602@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5364 I generally have more respect than this for do it yourselfers, novices, hacks and 'muckers about' or at least I find I have more difficulty defining product as being good or bad based on strange ahistorical ideas about craftsmanship. I also have trouble with the notion of salvation coming from a notion of true master or craftsmanship. I know this is generally the case in traditions of utopian thought but I would think experience could or would have taught us otherwise. Within a craft everything is subsumed to the level of process and product. The world, its people, peoples health, the worlds resources have all suffered as a result of craft and its various 'brotherhoods' I've heard far too often that its o.k. to use first growth lumber in a timber frame because its so well crafted. this is pure bullshit as its still inappropriate destruction for the benefit of someone's ego. Our history is nothing but the continuous exploitation of a resource or a people for the betterment of a 'craft'. Better a culture that has as its base the idea of what it is to be a person - rather than the subtle differentiation's and competitions of various maker of things. We are prisoners of craft, absurd and contradictory notions of quality leave us surrounded with objects or imitations of object in some pursuit of style. In medieval painting the virgin was typically depicted in blue because the best or 'permanent' blue paint was derived from lapis azuli and was the most precious of colours. The ruling classes typically adopted this colour for clothing as indigo was a precious import. Upon the discovery that woad produced an acceptable blue - the 'middle classes' quickly created a demand for woad dyed clothing. Woad farming was poisonous of both the ground and local water systems used for its processing so woad farmers were very unpopular migrant farmers who destroyed a lot of good farmland. This is given as one of the first major incidences of industrial pollution and also is part of the history of the craft of dyegoods. Woe is me Lots more to say about this but suffice it to say that this kind of sentiment that confuses high end servitude with notions of sustainability makes me nervous. John FUnger@aol.com wrote: > Friends, > > I had the priveledge of spending about a year working with the folks at Benson > Woodworking Company, one of the leading timber framing companies in the world. > I can tell you without hesitation that their work is not only beautiful, but > is produced with a collective conciousness on the part of the entire > organization that is about as progressive and environmentally responsible as > any company in the world. Their work puts my own little baby steps toward > sustainable building to shame. > > One of their answers to the joinery question that David addressed is to use > some joinery developed centures ago in Japan that essentially uses splines in > a way that minimizes the stregnth reduction associated with conventional > western timber frame joinery and thus reduce timber sizes (when appropriate). > They've also devised systems that incorporate steel without the negative > aesthetics (again when appropriate) > > I agree with Stewart Brands assessment of the technology: that is by far one > of the best ways to build homes. The problem is that in order to do it right, > it requires true craftsmen rather than the typical hacks that build homes . To > have novice or people with an aw screw it attitude throw together a timber > frame is an almost certain recipe for an unsustainable and likely unsafe > building. It is far better in my opinion for do it yourselfers and novices to > stick to easy structurally redundant systems like 2 x 4's rather than all the > exotic technology that seems to appeal to that crowd. > > At Bensons they have about 500 collective person years in dedicated life long > study and practice of the craft. True masters such as that in any trade can > bring to bear a level of elegance that not only looks beautiful but fits the > world beautifully as well. A large part of their collective wisdom is in > recognizing how truly daunting the challenge of building great buildings is. > So they have collected not only some of the best timber framers and > woodworkers around, but also great architects, great project managers and the > leading structural engineer in the field, all assembled to bring their > collective wisdom to their work. > > Which when compared to the ways homes are typically built, including my own > projects, highlights a problem with many of our discussions and with much of > our current social expectations. We have seemed to have lost the respect and > value of true mastery. Everyone wants to read a book, ask a couple questions > and assume they can go out and build a home or do any number of complex things > after gaining only the most superficial understanding of the task before > them. Everyone wants lifes gifts to come fast and cheap. > > Perhaps a truly sustainable world will be one in which we regain our respect > for the subtle differences a true master can bring to his or her work in > creating goods and services that we will value enough to make them last long > and serve well. > > Fred > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 18 22:54:26 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA26465 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:54:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA00571; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:51:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:47:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA00221 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:47:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00214 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:47:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (ipb240.st.petersburg4.fl.pub-ip.psi.net [38.30.153.240]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA22882 for ; Fri, 18 Dec 1998 19:47:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <367ADBBE.D06ED12D@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:48:31 +0000 From: Cindy Shea X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: [Fwd: [GRRN] Job opportunity in Wisconsin] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0B2D3462A2F8D1CE70CED110" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5365 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0B2D3462A2F8D1CE70CED110 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Madison is a nice city. Anybody interested in running the Wisconsin Green Building Alliance? -- Cindy Pollock Shea Contributing Editor http://sustainable.state.fl.us --------------0B2D3462A2F8D1CE70CED110 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from gaea.earthsystems.org (gaea.earthsystems.org [206.205.42.199]) by grebe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA24950 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:23:25 -0800 (PST) Received: (from list@localhost) by gaea.earthsystems.org (8.8.6/8.6.9) id RAA18687; Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:21:00 -0500 Resent-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:20:52 -0500 From: "John Reindl" Organization: Dane County To: Recycle@envirolink.org, GreenYes@earthsystems.org, Waste@cedar.univie.ac.at Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:22:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Reply-to: reindl@co.dane.wi.us Priority: normal Message-ID: <10A31E0E2C97@co.dane.wi.us> Subject: [GRRN] Job opportunity in Wisconsin Resent-Message-ID: <"YMM5GC.A.liE.EJDe2"@gaea> Resent-From: greenyes@earthsystems.org Precedence: list Resent-Sender: greenyes-request@earthsystems.org Resent-To: multiple recipients of X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Program Director - Wisconsin Green Building Alliance, Madison, WI Position Summary The Wisconsin Green Building Alliance (WGBA), an independent program of Wisconsin Environmental Initiative (WEP, seeks a Program Director responsible for program development, fundraising, marketing, promotion and management of all programs and activities of WGBA. The Organization WGBA is dedicated to facilitating and promoting the development and use of ecologically sustainable materials and practices within Wisconsin's built environment. WEI is a non-profit, nonpartisan educational organization serving as a catalyst for cooperation among business, citizen groups and government to facilitate outcomes for the benefit of Wisconsin's environment, economy and quality of life. Responsibilities Passion: Actively promote the mission of WGBA utilizing strong networking and social skills. Demonstrated ability to work with the architecture, construction, energy, environmental, recycling and renewable technology sectors. Develop working partnerships and channels of communication with diverse stakeholder groups. Gain new organizational exposure and establish a WGBA presence through public presentations and participation on related boards and planning committees. Programming: Synthesize emerging technical information and resources and incorporate into program strategies. Lead the development, marketing and delivery of creative and timely programs. Pursue collaborative programming efforts with other organizations. Oversee the production of member resources, conference materials and reports, fact sheets and quarterly newsletters. Work closely with steering committee to develop and implement programs. Fundraising: Initiate fund raising activities including grants, sponsor-ships, membership development and other mechanisms. Coordinate Fundraising Committee. Membership: Manage membership activities to maintain WGBA's broad constituency base, while increasing membership levels and demographics. Communication: Report to, inform, educate and maintain a healthy relationship with the WEI Board and WGBA Steering Committee. To learn more about WEI and WGBA see our website: http://www.wi-ei.org. Please send resume with cover letter to: Wisconsin Environmental Initiative Attn: John Imes 16 N. Carroll St. Ste. 840 Madison, WI 53703 Resumes will be accepted until January 15, 1999. WEI is an equal opportunity employer. reindl@co.dane.wi.us (608)267-1533 - fax (608)267-8815 - phone ************************************************** To post to the greenyes list, send a letter to: greenyes@earthsystems.org If you ever need to unsubscribe, send a message to greenyes-request@earthsystems.org with the subject unsubscribe. If you have any problems, please write to www@earthsystems.org. GreenYes is archived on the GrassRoots Recycling Network web site: http://www.grrn.org ************************************************** --------------0B2D3462A2F8D1CE70CED110-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 19 07:39:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA29611 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 07:39:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA11637; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 07:35:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 19 Dec 1998 07:32:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA11426 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 07:32:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA11416 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 07:32:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10747 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 07:32:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy3.vineyard.net(206.166.158.61) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma010723; Sat Dec 19 07:32:11 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 07:39:54 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: Timber Framing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5366 Timber framing has been on my mind for 25 years. The first house I ever built, in 1973, was built from salvaging several swayback caving-in barns in Vermont. The foundation was salvage RR ties gathered from the railroad tracks in Brattleboro (the pile of ties had just been replaced - after several failed attempts to truck them off the tracks at night when the trains didn't run, and to haul them up a steep bank to the A & P parking lot, we finally pushed them into the Connecticut River, lashed 'em together, and floated them to a landing in Hinsdale NH - accounting for time these were probably the most expensive RR ties in history, but . . ah yes. . time was cheap then). The roof was slate (only roofing material we could find that was re-useable). That house cost $700. We lived there comfortably for years. Others still are. Soon after, we built a timber framed house on Martha's Vineyard and used a Rex Roberts sheathing/insulation/siding system (some of you will remember Rex Roberts' book - I think it was called "The Well Engineered House"- but they weren't). That house taught me something. Furniture didn't fit against the walls, the insulation system was poor, wiring and plumbing were tough, etc. That was about the time Benson, Levin and others were re-inventing timber framing. They began to solve some of these problems. Lazier, I guess, we didn't. We stopped making "timber framed houses" but continued to use timbers in our buildings. We often make second floor frames, porches, particular trusses, barns - any place where structure and aesthetics are important and the difficulties of timber framing are not - out of solid timbers. I have tremendous respect for the Timber Framing Community (and it is a community). Among this group are some of the wisest, most thoughtful, most skillful designers and builders I know. They were not content to re-invent a lost craft. They have continuously examined, analyzed, and improved. The best of them realized some time ago that they were making products that had no value - timber frames. You can't live in a timber frame. Doesn't even keep the weather out. At that point they began to think of buildings as systems, as many of us do, and began to make buildings, not frames. In many cases, very good buildings. Some of these buildings will probably be with us, not only for 200 years, as David F. has mentioned, but for 500 or 700 or more, like some of the 900 year old wooden buildings still standing in Norway. Why? Two reasons: they're beautifully built and well loved (and therefore will be well cared for). As I said (and I will get to the point, believe me), we took a different route. As our practice developed, we began to get uncomfortable with the old growth redwood, fir, and cypress we were using, and looked for replacements. Over the years we've come full circle to where we were when we built that first building in Vermont. Lack of dollars and cents determined our method for that first building (although our countercultural bent was the underlying force) and gradually our sense of other, deeper costs drove us to explore alternatives to our standard practice. Salvage became a passion. Today +/- 90% of the interior and exterior wood in our buildings is salvaged; most of the rest is certified and local. We have some distance to go to improve the sourcing of our framing systems. We have found that the use of salvage is an art in itself, with many issues and questions. It's obviously not a resource that will substantially alter the way our culture houses itself. But there are interesting lessons that have broad application - about maximizing yield through clever use of off cuts and by-products, about designing for the resource rather than fitting the resource to the design. Our designers and craftspeople have learned to think about what we have and how it can best be used. Asked to explain the difference between himself and an average person, Albert Einstein explained that the average person faced with the problem of finding a needle in a haystack would stop when he or she found a needle. But Einstein would tear through the entire haystack looking for all possible needles. So I think the answer to the question, "Is Timber Framing sustainable?" is quite simple: like everything else, it depends how it's done. There are profound subtleties and avenues of inquiry. The real question, as always, is "Are we asking the right questions? Are we looking for all the needles?" If we are, the quality of our practice will grow, our use of the resource will improve, and, most importantly, the way we think will change as a result of looking for ways to use timber - or anything else for that matter - in a sustainable way. John PS. Happy 50th birthday to Terry Brennan. What I want to know is how did he get so wise so fast. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 19 12:45:57 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01453 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:45:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20164; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:42:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:38:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19609 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:38:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19600 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:38:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA02115 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:38:29 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 12:38:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA1-p7.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.135]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA25410 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 11:51:03 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sA1-p7.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.135] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 11:51:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <367BD8E9.A716827B@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 11:48:41 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Timber Framing References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5367 Mr. Abrams, The Pinkerton Detective Agency, hereafter known as we, was hired by the Brattleboro-Nashua RR in the fall of 1973, to locate a cache of stolen ties. I was assigned this file and have pursued it with the greatest diligence ever since. It was the rouse of floating them down the river that threw me off, but I would have found you eventually. If said ties are not back at the site by 12:00 midnight, January 1, 2000, there will be major reprecussions. If these ties are not accounted for in that inventory, it will set off the Y2K crash you may have read about. Dolph Norquist Very Special Agent P.S. I second the birthday wish and the wisdom querry. > PS. Happy 50th birthday to Terry Brennan. What I want to know is how did > he get so wise so fast. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 19 14:54:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02380 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:54:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23962; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:49:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:36:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23436 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:36:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23431 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:36:34 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 1PFDa22263 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:36:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1477b87b.367c002c@aol.com> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 14:36:12 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Terry's Birthday Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5368 I'll chip in here with a birthday wish too old wise one. My question though, is how did he get so old so fast? Time is flying by my friends, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 19 19:57:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA05126 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:57:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01075; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:53:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:49:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA00583 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:49:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00576 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 19:49:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on6-39.netcom.ca [207.181.91.167]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09229; Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:48:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981219164210.009e51b0@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:46:20 -0400 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" From: Norbert Senf Subject: GBlist: RE: Cob Hot water pipes in cob walls? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <01BE2B47.55A37280.jfstraube@golden.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5369 At 10:30 AM 19/12/98 -0500, John Straube wrote: >There are several, if not many, slim-line (1-1/4" thick) baseboard type hot >water heaters. These have a lot of advantages, but I am not sure if they >all work like the German one you described. What is peculiar about this system is that the temp is kept low enough that air flow stays in the laminar regime, which is what allows it to cling to the wall and transfer its heat to it. I don't think he uses fins on the water pipe, and he does the whole outside perimeter of the house, with no pipe on interior walls. Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 20 08:57:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA09647 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:57:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA17387; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:53:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:50:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17136 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:49:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.voyager.net (mail2.voyager.net [209.153.128.77]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17132 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:49:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (lnngmi174119.voyager.net [209.153.174.119]) by mail2.voyager.net (8.9.1/Voyager-MailX) with SMTP id IAA05274 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:50:37 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <367CCC69.26AF@voyager.net> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 10:07:37 +0000 From: Pat Ballentine Reply-To: ballentine@voyager.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Disentanglement References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5370 John Abrams wrote: > The term is disentanglement. A good discussion: "How Buildings Learn" by > Stewart Brand. Ditto John's recommendation of that book. Another keyword on the subject is "Raceway systems." Some of the current products combine electrical wiring with phone, cable, etc. The Wiremold corporation makes a very handsome residential baseboard raceway with a thin wood veneer atop the vinyl enclosure. You could stain or paint as desired. They also manufacture a commercial product, and claim great $ savings for incorporating this into an office building where wiring/communications are changed often. I believe they said that every 3 years is common. The changes are quicker and easier with a surface raceway rather than an embedded (unseen) system. This concept typifies the "loose fit=long life" theory Stewart Brand describes. Pat Ballentine ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 20 09:44:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09891 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 09:44:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18695; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 09:41:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 20 Dec 1998 09:37:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18245 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 09:37:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18241; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 09:37:14 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ184744; Sun, 20 Dec 98 07:37:28 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA69812; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 07:37:24 -0700 Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 07:37:24 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Strawbale Listserver Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Concrete/Steel Composite Slabs In-Reply-To: <199812191735.MAA20704@freenet3.carleton.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5371 The real challenge with the above are details at walls to maintain structural bearing while trying to avoid/reduce/mitigate thermal bridging, ESPECIALLY when using radiant floor heating. You are dealing with concrete and steel at 82dF, excellent conductors. There are MANY attractive features of this system (in theory) until you get to the design of details and actual construction. We have used this system, but have not continued to use it after the 1970s due to lack of proper details in cold climates. I do not know of anyone who has solved this Achilles heel of using Q decking with concrete.If anyone has solved this generic problem for both hot and cold climates, without fancy gymnastics, please speak up. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 20 12:38:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA11162 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:38:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22906; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:35:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:31:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22674 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:31:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.grove.ufl.edu (root@mail2.grove.ufl.edu [128.227.8.82]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22663 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:31:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from willow.grove.ufl.edu (root@grove.ufl.edu [128.227.8.13]) by mail2.grove.ufl.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6/1) with ESMTP id MAA30872 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:31:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from Kibert4 (p5205.cfaa.ufl.edu [10.5.5.205]) by willow.grove.ufl.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6/1) with SMTP id MAA25224 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:31:38 -0500 (EST) Comments: grove thinks this came from p5205.cfaa.ufl.edu [10.5.5.205] (hop 0) Message-Id: <199812201731.MAA25224%p5205.cfaa.ufl.edu@willow.grove.ufl.edu> X-Sender: minou@grove.ufl.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 12:31:35 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Brad Guy Subject: GBlist: 10:1 Ratios Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5372 I apologize if anyone does not wish the listserv to be used for research. For those who do not mind I am looking for original sources of the oft repeated 10:1 statements that: 1. It requires 10 board feet of raw timber to manufacture 1 board foot of finished lumber, or another way to put it typical efficiencies of <10% in the lumber industry, this is not including engineered products, only dimensional lumber. 2. Resource recovery, reuse/recycling and ancillary activities creates 10 times more labor hours of economic activity than use once and disposal activities. This information is for strategic development of deconstruction and reuse in Florida, those figures are important for economic calculations. I use them anecdotally but do not feel comfortable or justifiable in using them without the factual calculations. Please reply directly to me so as to not burden the listserv. Thank you Brad Guy Center for Construction and Environment ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 20 14:26:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12417 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:26:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26365; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:23:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:19:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25884 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:19:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25873; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:19:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5 [134.117.136.25]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id OAA08225; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:19:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id OAA25618; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:19:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 14:19:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199812201919.OAA25618@freenet5.carleton.ca> From: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: jdo@ucalgary.ca Subject: GBlist: Re: Concrete/Steel Composite Slabs Cc: strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Reply-To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5373 jdo@ucalgary.ca wrote: >The real challenge with the above are details at walls to maintain structural >bearing while trying to avoid/reduce/mitigate thermal bridging, ESPECIALLY >when using radiant floor heating. [snip & paste] >have not continued to use it after the 1970s due to lack of proper >details in cold climates. [snip] Hello Jorg and SlabHeads; Abandoned in the 1970's you say ? Ve-r-r-ry interesting considering that composite slab technology probably wasn't being developed until the early-mid 80's in Canada. I won't even mention the Murricans because they're always at least five years behind Canada in the area of Building Science (but I guess I just did). As to developing details to mitigate/reduce/eliminate thermal bridging... isn't that why design fees are charged (as opposed to chaging design fees for simply photocopying details from one project to the next )? For a building where the structure in entirely enclosed by the thermal envelope (as it should be anyway in a cold climate, composite slab or not) why would eliminating thermal bridging at the bearing be a challenge ? In a thick-walled building (such as a Straw Bale infill (or "out-fill" to be precise)), where the loadbearing column+lintel structure may comprise less than a half or third of the overall wall thickness (if embedded withing the wall), this would be even less of a challenge. -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 20 18:58:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA14648 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:58:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07098; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:54:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:50:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA06498 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:50:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06492 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:50:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.199] (ka3-199.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.199]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.9.1+DND/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA12343; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 18:50:29 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <38ef9fc2.3679c602@aol.com> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:40:06 -0500 To: FUnger@aol.com, Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Timber Framing and craftsmanship Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id SAA06495 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5374 Sgrìobh FUnger@aol.com: > One of their answers to the joinery question that David addressed is to use > some joinery developed centures ago in Japan that essentially uses splines in > a way that minimizes the stregnth reduction associated with conventional > western timber frame joinery and thus reduce timber sizes (when appropriate). > They've also devised systems that incorporate steel without the negative > aesthetics (again when appropriate) Fred - Where could I find illustrations of such joints? > I agree with Stewart Brands assessment of the technology: that is by far one > of the best ways to build homes. The problem is that in order to do it > right, > it requires true craftsmen rather than the typical hacks that build homes > . To > have novice or people with an aw screw it attitude throw together a timber > frame is an almost certain recipe for an unsustainable and likely unsafe > building. It is far better in my opinion for do it yourselfers and > novices to > stick to easy structurally redundant systems like 2 x 4's rather than all the > exotic technology that seems to appeal to that crowd. I'm afraid this rambles a bit, and if I overdid it then I apologize. I have a lot on my mind right now. But I felt an urge to reply to Fred's comments. With all due respect to Fred, who has much professional building experience (which I have not), I think that he has overstated his case. Yes, to build a timber frame "right" requires much experience and craft, if "right" means the highest quality in every respect: most efficient use of the least material to achieve a desired end with the highest aesthetic appeal, in a timely fashion. However, someone with less experience can achieve lesser, but acceptable, heights. For instance, a novice might well be able to build something very beautiful and sturdy, but would have to take longer to do it, and reject material on which he's made mistakes. Or a novice might create something which isn't conventionally beautiful or as strong as it could be but which is sufficiently sturdy to do the job. This latter example is my case. A month or so ago I completed the frame of my house. It's a small single-story house, with four bents. For five posts I used salvaged pine trunks which I found sitting newly deposited on the wood heap in the local landfill. (In retrospect, I could have used them for all eight posts, but I am paranoid when it comes to safety and I chose to saw some of them for boards instead because of insect damage. They turned out to be solid, but I wasn't sure.) For the others, I cut oak and maple on my property. For the beams I used more oak from my property. The salvaged timbers are very large; two of them are over 24 inches across. I didn't square any of them, which is what enabled me to use trees from my land; otherwise they wouldn't have been big enough. I cut the notches with a chainsaw. The posts are way oversized. The beams are appropriately sized for beams in the round (so says the architect who specified the sizes). The notches are not perfect, but they're tight. The knee braces are larger than they need to be, but I made them of the branches from the trees which went into the frame, so I didn't have to cut anything further for them. The knee braces are tight, but not perfect (any timber framer will tell you that the braces are the hardest parts). If I were to see such a frame without knowing anything about it, I probably wouldn't think much of it as a piece of craftsmanship. But I do know it, and so for me, my family, and the friends who helped me raise it, it's beautiful. It's overbuilt, from salvaged and sustainably cut wood. It's not an efficient use of wood, and it's not aesthetically pleasing unless you really like the rugged look (I do, in fact, so I think that it's beautiful; but I'm biased, because I made it and I'm proud of it). But it's very sturdy, and it went up fast (about a month), considering that I work more than full time and build in my "spare" time. Total cost, including having a cherry picker bring the salvaged timbers to my property (along with many others which I sawed into boards for the rest of the building) and the purchase of a chainsaw: approximately $700. I've had several people with building experience tell me that it looks strange, but it will hold up just fine and then some. I agree with them. And since I'm working my rear end off in order to get the house finished before the rent we pay now impoverishes us, I'll take it. Happily. I don't think that I was able to do it because of any special unique gifts, so there must be other people out there who could do it too, and in fact there are other people who have done it. I know of one case where the novice builder made a different trade-off: he took several years to hand-work all of the timbers, and then assembled the frame. He has a beautiful, sturdy frame which uses less wood per enclosed volume than mine, but he took a long time to do it. I think that I understand Fred's point, that to do a timber frame well in all respects requires significant experience, expertise and dedication. I agree. However, the frame doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be acceptable for a given situation. > Which when compared to the ways homes are typically built, including my own > projects, highlights a problem with many of our discussions and with much of > our current social expectations. We have seemed to have lost the respect and > value of true mastery. Everyone wants to read a book, ask a couple questions > and assume they can go out and build a home or do any number of complex > things > after gaining only the most superficial understanding of the task before > them. Everyone wants lifes gifts to come fast and cheap. I have profound respect for true mastery. In my dream-world, I'd have built my timber frame by hiring on as a grunt worker to the master who was in charge of it, and learning what I could while others built it. Unfortunately, many people who have much more money than I do also have profound respect for true mastery, or at least want to own what comes of it, and so the true masters make their livings by building for other people than me. > Perhaps a truly sustainable world will be one in which we regain our respect > for the subtle differences a true master can bring to his or her work in > creating goods and services that we will value enough to make them last long > and serve well. Perhaps. I don't think that such a sustainable world is possible until a sizeable percentage of the population can afford to buy those masterful goods and services. In the meantime, the wise less affluent people will do their research, learn what they can, and balance the criteria their way. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 20 20:15:15 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA15360 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:15:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA10225; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:12:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:07:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA09902 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:07:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA09897 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:07:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [153.34.14.206] (153.34.14.206) by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Sun, 20 Dec 1998 17:14:56 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Tubular Skylights Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 17:11:52 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1297919600-3286967@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5375 Ross There's an extensive list in our REDI database: www.oikos.com/redi/ Just do a category search for skylights. Bruce >Would you have any contact info on the suppliers, and/or preferably, >manufacturers of these items? ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 20 20:51:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA15594 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:51:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA11619; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:48:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:44:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11329 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:44:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.144.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA11319 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:44:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from epistle.umich.edu (pm463-17.dialip.mich.net [207.75.176.219]) by runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.5/2.3) with SMTP id UAA28203 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:44:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199812210144.UAA28203@runningman.rs.itd.umich.edu> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 20:44:58 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: epistle@e.imap.itd.umich.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: epistle@umich.edu (Mark Stranahan) Subject: GBlist: preconceptions Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5376 Dear Folks: In reference to the dialogue about turf issues among architects, builders and others involved in the built environment, I offer the following parable. I paraphrase a story that appeared in a book by John King Fairbank, the venerated China expert who was at Harvard for a zillion years. I read it many years ago so this may be as much invention as recollection. Fairbank recounts being in China in the nineteen-thirties, cheerfully strolling down a rural lane, and stopping a couple of Chinese peasants to ask them the way to the ancient city of Chang-An. They stared at him in silence. He asked them again, phrasing it differently in his precise Oxford Mandarin Chinese, if he was on the right path for the old capital of Chang-An. On getting no response but mute wonder, he tipped his bowler and strolled on. As he walked away, he heard one peasant exclaim to the other, "Isn't that astonishing, it is just as though that foreigner asked us, in perfect Chinese, if this is the road to Chang-An!" I submit this as a reminder that if we have the expectation that cultural differences will prevent us from communicating, they certainly will. I know a few people who seem to be constitutionally capable of hearing me or accurately understanding my commitments and capacities because I am an architect. It is in turn dismayingly easy for me to devalue these folks in my frustration. This list is cool as hell. Thanks for your commitments and passions, all. Mark Stranahan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 21 11:19:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24211 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:19:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09401; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:15:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:11:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08600 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:10:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08576; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:10:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-06-22.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.129.22]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA13682; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:10:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:11:36 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE2CD2.AC7A40C0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Jorg D. Ostrowski'" , Strawbale Listserver Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: RE: GBlist: Concrete/Steel Composite Slabs Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 22:39:56 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5377 On Sunday, December 20, 1998 9:37 AM, Jorg D. Ostrowski [SMTP:jdo@ucalgary.ca] wrote: > The real challenge with the above are details at walls to maintain structural > bearing while trying to avoid/reduce/mitigate thermal bridging, ESPECIALLY > when using radiant floor heating. You are dealing with concrete and steel at .... > lack of proper details in cold climates. I do not know of anyone who has solved > this Achilles heel of using Q decking with concrete.If anyone has solved > this generic problem for both hot and cold climates, without fancy > gymnastics, please speak up. The theoretical answer, and I assumed this was clear, is to place all (or almost all) of the insulation on the exterior. This does require some thought in producing practical details but is hardly intractable. This is how millions of square feet of composite slab is built each year in Toronto, Ottawa, and K-W (the cities I know best). However, this assumes a structure on the inside, like timber frame, or steel, or masonry. For a wood frame home, it usually only makes sense to use composite slab bearing on the concrete basement wall, and this forces one to put all or most of the insulaiton on the exterior of the basement wall (not too difficult) and/or use a shelf angle and anchors through the insulation. Several of the ICF manufacturers have special blocks for brick ledges, blocks that can be used on the inside to support large continous line loads like composite slabs. In an high mass house, one might use 6" concrete block masonry as the inner load bearing wythe and this is more than sufficient to take the 2nd floor loads. Of course, you need to use 5 inches of insulation on the exterior to get decent R-value, but the result is an exceptionally durable structure (and is very similiar to what they are building in many parts of northern Europe). ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 21 11:39:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24465 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:39:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11157; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:36:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:32:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10574 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:32:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10566; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:32:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA11013; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:31:57 -0600 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:29:25 -0600 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" , greenbuilding-digest@crest.org Subject: GBlist: RE:Timber framing and steel connectors Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:29:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id LAA10571 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5378 > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 08:40:06 -0500 > From: Speireag Alden > Subject: Re: GBlist: Timber Framing and craftsmanship > > Sgrìobh FUnger@aol.com: > > > One of their answers to the joinery question that David addressed is to > use > > some joinery developed centures ago in Japan that essentially uses > splines in > > a way that minimizes the stregnth reduction associated with conventional > > western timber frame joinery and thus reduce timber sizes (when > appropriate). > > They've also devised systems that incorporate steel without the negative > > aesthetics (again when appropriate) > > Fred - > > Where could I find illustrations of such joints? > > - -Speireag. > 0>>>>>>(--------------------- > Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden > Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org > Joshua - One Japanese company that manufactures an ingenious(to me) system of hidden steel connectors is Kato Sangyo Company. Their product is called the "Metalfit" system. Their fax number, in Tokyo, is 0854-28-9000. A contact person is Santos Martin, who can be reached via email at Santos@byway.net. - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 21 12:18:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA25135 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:18:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13897; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:15:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:11:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13510 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:11:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from x12.boston.juno.com (x12.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13505 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:11:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by x12.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DWZRMVU9; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:11:52 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:17:00 -0800 Subject: GBlist: heaters Message-ID: <19981221.121701.9558.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-10 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5379 Hi, I have just been rereading the posts pro and con on heat pumps and on the impending end of cheap oil. One obvious question comes readily to mind - if in ten years we are facing the possibility of spiraling oil costs, why would anyone recommend an oil fired heating system over heat pumps or any other systems? Am I missing something here? Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 21 12:33:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26032 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:33:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15069; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:30:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:26:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14711 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:26:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay4.smtp.psi.net (relay4.smtp.psi.net [38.9.52.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14706 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:26:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [149.103.1.200] (helo=mailgate.nyserda.org) by relay4.smtp.psi.net with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) for greenbuilding@crest.org id 0zs96h-0002Jr-00; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:26:59 -0500 Received: from ccMail by mailgate.nyserda.org (ccMail Link to SMTP R6.01.01) id AA914262362; Mon, 21 Dec 98 12:46:05 -0500 Message-Id: <9812219142.AA914262362@mailgate.nyserda.org> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.01.01 Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 12:25:22 -0500 From: "Craig Kneeland" To: Subject: GBlist: 10 to 1 ratios MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5380 Please include the reference Brad Guy requested for the 10 to 1 ratios on this list. This is useful information for many of us. Thanks. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 21 13:01:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26791 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:01:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17021; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:58:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:54:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16697 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:54:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16685 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:54:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id MAA09539; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:54:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA25446; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:54:30 -0500 Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:54:30 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: "Beverly A. Weiter" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: heaters/oil In-Reply-To: <19981221.121701.9558.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5381 Hi Bev, Regarding > the possibility of spiraling oil costs... Anything is possible. But, the facts are, that there is more oil available, and more proven oil reserves, than ever before. And the price, at less than $10.- per barrel, or whatever, is less than than it has been since the 1970s. The question, as to whether or not the Earth is running out of oil is, in many ways, one of theory, in that geologists are still debating the interior makeup of the Earth's subsurface and core. I subscribe to the Magma Theory, which holds that oil, does not come exclusively from decayed organic matter, but also from other geologic processes, which might lead one to a collateral hypothosis that, yes, we are limited in our supply of oil, but the limit may be that of the volume of the Earth, itself. If the Magma Theory proves, in any way, to any degree, to be correct, then the question for the future will be, not "when will we run out" of oil, but when and how will we ever learn to manage a super-abundance of cheap oil. As new drilling and exploration technology can provide, for all intents and purposes, an inexhautable supply of oil, if it is sitting there at greater depths and available, we will have a bigger problem, in controlling the use of oil. That, in fact, is the situation today, which we are blind to today. We are drowning in oil. And we are choking on the byproducts of oil combustion. Oil is cheap. Its getting cheaper. There's more of it than ever before, and there are no viable alternative, considering the combined interests of ye olde military industrial complex, and the world demand for a relatively safe portable high energy content fuel, that is, diesel, the universal petroleum product. Go to anyplace in the world and you will find, the functional equivalent of our #2 home heating oil - its roughly the same thing that is used in diesel cars and trucks. As to why oil is recommnedable for a home heating system, there are reasons, having to do with safety, diversity of competative supply (until they all get merged,) limited home energy independence (compared with a pipeline,) etc.; but I'm a solar energy advocate, first, not necessarily pro-oil, except as an emergency auxilary back up. Yours truly, Ross "If oil fell free from the sky, would you use it?" -Toxic Avenger encl: On Mon, 21 Dec 1998, Beverly A. Weiter wrote: > Hi, > > I have just been rereading the posts pro and con on heat pumps and on the > impending end of cheap oil. One obvious question comes readily to mind - > if in ten years we are facing the possibility of spiraling oil costs, why > would anyone recommend an oil fired heating system over heat pumps or any > other systems? Am I missing something here? > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > Boca Raton, FL > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 21 13:21:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27125 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:21:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18338; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:18:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:14:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17930 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:14:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from monarch.sover.net (monarch.sover.net [209.198.87.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17926; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:14:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from sover.net (arc1a188.bf.sover.net [209.198.81.190]) by monarch.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA21174; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:14:57 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on monarch.sover.net) sover.net from arc1a188.bf.sover.net [209.198.81.190] 209.198.81.190 Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:14:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <367EBADD.5D06E44F@sover.net> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:17:17 -0800 From: Andrea Warchaizer Reply-To: springpt@sover.net Organization: Springpoint Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Patrick Pierquet CC: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" , greenbuilding-digest@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: RE:Timber framing and steel connectors References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5382 Green Mountain Precision Frames (802-674-6145) uses a system of concealed metal fasteners to join their frames. They don't sell these fasteners, just the finished frames. The connectors are similar in concept to a "bed bolt" or barrel nut-tpye device used in constructing some knock-down furniture. GMPF also often uses glu-lam timbers for their frames, for those who don't want to use larger sawn timbers. The frame design tends to reflect the joinery system- that is, multiple connections at single location might be possible where all-wood joinery wouldn't work. Andrea Warchaizer Springpoint Design Alstead, NH ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 21 13:28:16 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27290 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:28:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18838; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:25:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:21:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18528 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:21:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18524 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:21:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id MAA0000013457; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:21:11 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981221182409.006c2430@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 12:24:09 -0600 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: RE: GBlist: Concrete/Steel Composite Slabs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5383 At 10:39 PM 20-12-98 -0500, you wrote: Of course, you need to use 5 inches of insulation on the exterior to get decent R-value, but the result is an exceptionally durable structure John, relative to the above and this is perhaps a naive question, but if one places x-inches of foam sheathing on the exterior of a 2x frame how do you attach your outside covering? With regard to the type of insulation, unfortunately the recent discussion about the vulnerability of foam to termite infestation has pretty much precluded its use in this area for an exterior sheathing on either concrete or in those circumstances where the frame is too near the soil, immediately above the foundation. So what is the good alternative? I don't believe we can get Roxul here in the States in any form other than soft batt-like stuff. Sacie Lambertson > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 21 14:32:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28673 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:32:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23887; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:29:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:24:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23350 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:23:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ci.portland.or.us (pdxnet.ci.portland.or.us [207.109.34.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23346 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 14:23:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from linux1.bis.city (root@linux1.bis.city [10.80.1.15]) by ci.portland.or.us (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id LAA96512 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:27:17 -0800 Received: from issd1.bis.city (issd1.bis.city [10.80.1.16]) by linux1.bis.city (8.7.3/8.7.1) with SMTP id LAA07692 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:21:26 -0800 Received: from Portland-Message_Server by issd1.bis.city with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:23:59 -0800 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 11:31:54 -0800 From: Rob Bennett To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: "green" fire stations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5384 Hello Greenbuilding Listserve, I am looking for any case studies material on "greening" fire stations. Here in Portland, OR we just passed a construction bond to build and refurbish 21 fire stations. It is a wonderful opportuntiy to get green building principles into the A/E boilerplate specs. If anyone has any info or leads, I would much appeciate it. Kindly, Rob Bennett, Portland Energy Office 503-823-7725 bennett@ci.portland.or.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 21 16:50:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA01015 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:50:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02093; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:46:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:43:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA01733 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:42:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from north.net.csuchico.edu (north.net.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.252.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01725 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 16:42:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [::ffff:132.241.80.13]) by north.net.csuchico.edu (8.9.0.Gamma0/8.9.0.Beta7) with SMTP id NAA08009 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 13:43:14 -0800 Message-ID: Date: 21 Dec 1998 13:46:04 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: Japanese Joinery To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA01726 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5385 Parick and others, "The Art of Japanese Joinery," by Kiyosi Seike, Weatherhill, Inc, ISBN 0-8348-1516-8, is a mind-boggling collection of wood joints for both buildings and furniture. The only problem: they are so elegant, and require such skill, that most people would not have the time or inclination, much less skill. As to metal plates for joining wood timbers, one doesn't have to merely use those ugly nail- or bolt-on things; you can work with a blacksmith to get nice looking plates. Course, then you've got to convince an inspector......... Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 21 18:28:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA02714 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:28:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07151; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:24:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:20:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA06841 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:20:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06837 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:20:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA22576 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:21:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from bsy8.vineyard.net(206.166.158.148) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma022533; Mon Dec 21 18:20:36 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <367BD8E9.A716827B@dreamscape.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:28:24 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: Timber Framing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5386 Norquist - It's time for the politics of personal destruction to end! Slather Winstead, a lineman who had been employed by the RR for 61 years at the time, gave us permission to remove those ties. Later he laughed at our helpless, blundering attempts to do so. But we forgave him, and if your snooping causes him to lose his job and whatever meagre pension the RR provides, you'll have to live with your guilt. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 21 20:44:24 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA04496 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:44:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12310; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:41:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:36:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12009 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:36:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12005 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-10-217.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.129.217]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA04398; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:36:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:37:28 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE2D21.B98F4EA0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'David F. Lambertson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Concrete/Steel Composite Slabs Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 19:19:19 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5387 On Monday, December 21, 1998 1:24 PM, David F. Lambertson [SMTP:dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu] wrote: > John, relative to the above and this is perhaps a naive question, but if one > places x-inches of foam sheathing on the exterior of a 2x frame how do you > attach your outside covering? I spoke of 5" of foam for a masonry inner wythe. Typcially, in such construction, a masonry outer wythe (eg 4" brick) is connected to the inner with wire ties. It is quite feasible to provide 6" of insulation, since masonry ties of such length are readily available. For insulating sheathing over wood framing, the thickness is less (say 1.5 to 3") so that it is possible to nail or screw through it. I know of one system that uses 3.5" of extruded polystyrene exterior insulated sheathing and they have built several hundred such homes with vinyl siding. Wood strapping over foam sheathing is also easy to do up to about 4" thickness. In Sweden, a nifty device was used to attach wood strapping through low-density insulated sheathing -- it was essentially a 1" diameter plastic plumbing pipe through which one drove the nail to the framing. After nailing the conection acting as if it were 1" in diameter. There are many solutions, it just is a typical building design problem that can be solved best by considering locally available material and labour resources. > With regard to the type of insulation, unfortunately the recent discussion > about the vulnerability of foam to termite infestation has pretty much > precluded its use in this area for an exterior sheathing on either concrete > or in those circumstances where the frame is too near the soil, immediately > above the foundation. So what is the good alternative? Dense glass fibre insulation (say 2.5 to 5 pcf, eg Owens-Corning AF530) is available throughout North America from all kinds of commercial insulation distributors. It is widely used in high-rise buildings, especially when fire resistance is an issue. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 21 22:04:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA05695 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:04:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16779; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:00:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:56:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16251 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:56:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16247 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:56:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id UAA0000009099; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:57:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981222025955.006d0fcc@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:59:55 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Wood fired boilers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5388 Can anyone on this list put me in touch with people who use wood-fired boilers? Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 21 22:05:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA05707 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:05:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16881; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:01:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:58:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16355 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:57:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16351 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:57:54 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id BLKAa15686 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:57:11 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <3d9086ea.367f0a87@aol.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:57:11 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Timber Framing and craftsmanship Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5389 Joshua, The folks at Bensons teach a timber framing course and also have published several books. Bensonwood Homes, Benson Woodworking, East Alstead, NH. They would be an excellent place to start. Also the Will Beemer and the other folks at The Heartwood School in Washington, Massachusetts teach a timber framing course that is also supposed to be excellent. The Timber Framers Guild of North America is probably the leading resourse for connecting with the technology and the community of folks on this continent that know and practice it. All these folks have web pages. www.bensonwood.com, www.heartwoodschool.com, www.tfguild.org Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 21 22:18:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA05892 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:18:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA17603; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:15:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:11:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17278 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:11:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17274 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:11:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from sachs.erols.com (207-172-46-59.s59.tnt9.ann.erols.com [207.172.46.59]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA04607; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:11:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981221184706.00739018@pop.erols.com> X-Sender: sachs@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 18:47:06 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Harvey M. Sachs" Subject: GBlist: electrostatic/electronic air filters Cc: mboyd@tandemengineering.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5390 A friend has asked for advice which I will also need in the near future: "Any recommendations on electronic/electrostatic air filters? My only experience was with a 1970s era Honeywell electrostatic unit. I'd like to use an electrostatic (or electronic) unit in tandem with a HEPA, and yes, the whole purpose if the HEPA is based on pollen...and mold spores...elimination due to allergies." Questions: does the tandem set-up make sense, or are the particle sizes and capture efficiencies similar enough that either would do? My sense is that the large pressure drop across a HEPA makes it problematic from an energy efficiency perspective, but maybe not. Whose "boxes" have worked well and reliably? TIA Harvey "sneeze" Sachs ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 21 22:33:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA06096 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:33:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA18179; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:29:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:24:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17894 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:24:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17890 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 22:24:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.18]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4439900 ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:18:43 -0800 Message-ID: <367F10A9.5FB273BC@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 19:23:22 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" CC: "'David F. Lambertson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Concrete/Steel Composite Slabs References: <01BE2D21.B98F4EA0.jfstraube@golden.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5391 John Straube wrote: > > Dense glass fibre insulation (say 2.5 to 5 pcf, eg Owens-Corning AF530) is > available throughout North America from all kinds of commercial insulation > distributors. It is widely used in high-rise buildings, especially when > fire resistance is an issue. > I found rigid glass batts just too irritating to be within a mile of. The fibres are small and brittle. I would worry about IAQ with fibres migrating to the interior. Last I checked the the formaldehyde levels were also higher with glass as opposed to rockwool boards. Rockwool firbres are larger and coarser but could still pose a respiratory concern. Sacie, I can't imagine that based on the quantity of roxul you would need that you could not get a shipment from the nearest distributor - and probably priced quite competitively to glass. best John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 21 23:20:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA06717 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 23:20:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA20237; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 23:17:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 21 Dec 1998 23:13:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA19961 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 23:13:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19957 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 23:13:38 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id TDZRa11366; Mon, 21 Dec 1998 23:13:27 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 23:13:27 EST To: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Mastering a craft Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5392 Joshua, To respond to your comments on the more philosophical aspects of this discussion: I guess my respect for true craftsmanship comes from two directions. First is some humiltiy learned through being stubborn or stupid enough to stay in business for sixteen years and live in the same house for eighteen years. Both my customers and my family have to deal with the long term realities brought on by the incompetence of my early efforts. Equally important is the priveledge I have had in working on a few buildings that are 200-260 years old. Repairing and restoring both elegant and simple buildings of that vintage, a couple things seem certain. To last, they had to be fundamentally well built, as well as beautiful and functional enough to be well loved through the years. There are many, many buildings long forgotten for each one of those special survivors. My sense is that creating a building that can sustain itself and its occupants through all those years, that preserves not only its material inputs but also all it's human creative inputs - that is truly sustainable building. I don't mean by my comments to imply that it can't be done by dedicated novices. I'm sure it can on occassion. In fact, it is likely that many inspired DIY projects will have far more of the love and elegance that insure survival than most of the newer buildings that I have been involved in. But most of the antique survivors I've seen have been built in the traditions of the old pattern books that master carpenters used as guides in the colonial era. Mastery of craft seems to help buildings pass the test of time. When I am feeling strong and very patient, I aspire to someday become a master builder. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 22 07:49:31 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA10213 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:49:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA02184; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:42:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA01895 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:42:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01891 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:42:14 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 1OOPa11661 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:41:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <5ca939cf.367f9392@aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:41:54 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Timber Framing and craftsmanship Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5393 In a message dated 98-12-21 21:59:56 EST, FUnger@aol.com writes: << The folks at Bensons teach a timber framing course and also have published several books. >> Steve Amstutz also teaches an EXCELLENT two week timber frame course at the Yestermorrow Design Build School in Warren, VT - see www.yestermorrow.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 22 08:30:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA10555 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:30:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03889; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:26:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:23:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA03607 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:23:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03596; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:23:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA26143; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:22:57 -0600 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:20:27 -0600 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" , greenbuilding-digest@crest.org Subject: GBlist: RE: 10 to 1 ratios Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:20:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5394 > -----Original Message----- > > Date: Mon, 21 Dec 98 12:25:22 -0500 > From: "Craig Kneeland" > Subject: GBlist: 10 to 1 ratios > > Please include the reference Brad Guy requested for the 10 to 1 > ratios > on this list. This is useful information for many of us. Thanks. > > Craig - the "conversion efficiency" ratio for sawmills is NOT anywhere near the meager 10% mentioned by the previous person. Depending on the tree species/size, skill of the sawyer, and type of equipment(circular saw, bandsaw,or thinkerf bandsaw), the conversion ratio is on the order of 50-70%. - Patrick Pierquet ppierquet@teltech.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 22 08:57:56 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA10816 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:57:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA05103; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:54:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:50:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04790 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:50:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay3.smtp.psi.net (relay3.smtp.psi.net [38.8.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04786 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:50:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [149.103.1.200] (helo=mailgate.nyserda.org) by relay3.smtp.psi.net with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) id 0zsSDR-0002w1-00; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:51:13 -0500 Received: from ccMail by mailgate.nyserda.org (ccMail Link to SMTP R6.01.01) id AA914335876; Tue, 22 Dec 98 09:11:18 -0500 Message-Id: <9812229143.AA914335876@mailgate.nyserda.org> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.01.01 Date: Tue, 22 Dec 98 08:49:41 -0500 From: "Craig Kneeland" To: Subject: GBlist: Green fire stations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5395 Last year NYSERDA completed a study on energy options in NYC Emergency Medical Stations. There may be some information in the final report that is useful for fire stations. The study was done for the NYC Department of Design and Construction (ddc1@incredibyte.net). By the way, DDC is putting the finishing touches on High Performance Building Guidelines for their client agencies, which include fire and police stations. The Guidelines, which were written by DDC staff, will cover a full spectrum of green building issues. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 22 09:56:28 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA11516 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:56:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07491; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:53:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:49:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07136 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:49:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07132 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:49:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id IAA0000032704; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:49:44 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981222145241.006b9390@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:52:41 -0600 To: Patrick Pierquet , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: 10 to 1 ratios Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5396 "the "conversion efficiency" ratio for sawmills is NOT anywhere near the meager 10% mentioned by the previous person. Depending on the tree species/size, skill of the sawyer, and type of equipment(circular saw, bandsaw,or thinkerf bandsaw), the conversion ratio is on the order of 50-70%." Even then one might get a still better ratio if the sawyer is really skilled. I was truly surprised to find almost no waste, just the outside rounded edge of the trees and those we plan to use as stairs, when a friend and experienced sawyer, using a wood mizer, cut oak and walnut from our land into boards and posts. Minus the new stairs I would guess that there is closer to 15 percent waste, tops; this takes into account the need to smooth those boards. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 22 10:38:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12593 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:38:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09541; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:34:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:31:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09144 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:30:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09138 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:30:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.43] (rkd019.acadia.net [208.244.128.43]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA04418 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:31:17 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:30:11 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: RE:Timber framing and steel connectors Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5397 I understand that Simpson Strong-Tie is developing a series of hidden metal connectors for light and heavy wood construction in the U.S. and Canadian markets. Simpson is in San Leandro, California - I don't know other contact info at this time. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 22 10:55:37 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA13016 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:55:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10651; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:52:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:48:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10269 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:48:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10263 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:48:22 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 1MZCa22652 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:47:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6c87f34d.367fbf18@aol.com> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:47:36 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: heaters Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5398 >One obvious question comes readily to mind - >if in ten years we are facing the possibility of spiraling oil costs, why >would anyone recommend an oil fired heating system over heat pumps or any >other systems? Beverly: The _system_ I recommend is a small house, airtight, super insulated and reduce the amount of heat rather than focus on how to find 75K to 125K BTU of heating. My 1750 s.f. house at 70 degree differential demands a high 30K BTU heat source. The house I built for my neighbor is even better. I can easily do that with a small wood burning stove and a couple of cords of wood. A point source decoupled gas heater in the living space would work as well. I do have a back up heat source build into the air exchanger which uses a hydronic loop off the hot water heater. In my neighbors house we used electric baseboard to satisfy the bank. Better to _not_ use a $1000 inefficient heat system than to _not_ use a $5000 efficient heat system. Either way they are sitting unused. Spend the money on design, construction and insulation, not heaters with a 20 or 30 year life. "Don't raise the bridge, lower the water". Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Inc. Contractors, Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 22 11:10:23 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13284 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:10:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11499; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:07:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:03:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA11117 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:03:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11109 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:03:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-18-128.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.131.128]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA25450; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:02:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:03:35 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE2D9A.B886AD40.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'John Salmen'" Cc: "'David F. Lambertson'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Concrete/Steel Composite Slabs Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:03:18 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5399 On Monday, December 21, 1998 10:23 PM, John Salmen [SMTP:terrain@cow-net.com] wrote: > I found rigid glass batts just too irritating to be within a mile of. The > fibres are small and brittle. I would worry about IAQ with fibres migrating to > the interior. Last I checked the the formaldehyde levels were also higher with > glass as opposed to rockwool boards. Rockwool firbres are larger and coarser > but could still pose a respiratory concern. All of the insulations pose a concern of one sort or another, although as you probably know, I do like Rockwool a lot. Polystyrene uses a lot of energy for example, and has fire and termite problems. AF530 actually has relatively large fibres but it does irritate the skin. In my experience, rigid board are always easier on the hands/skin than the low-density batts though .. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 22 12:21:38 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14500 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:21:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15295; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:18:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:14:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14970 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:14:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14965 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:14:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA17275; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:14:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from vna-va6-48.ix.netcom.com(207.223.176.112) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma017245; Tue Dec 22 11:13:38 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981222121112.00684058@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:11:15 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: RE: heat pumps Cc: OFFUTT.STEPHEN@epamail.epa.gov, msheffer@cyberia.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5400 Clarification of worksheet error mentioned by Marcus Sheffer: RE: "Alliance" worksheet on pollution emissions (the Alliance to Save Energy is not responsible for this worksheet or for related errors or omissions.) was a product of Bion Howard, and is called "Avoided Air-pollution through Energy Efficiency." ---------------------------------------------------------------- There was an early problem in a worksheet I published in 1993 in an EEBA Conference Proceedings paper, which was identified and corrected. In 1994 through early 1995 I send out correction notices as best I could on this issue. I have also provided corrected copies of the paper to requestors at a nominal reproduction charge. We have posted for some time, an electronic version (MS Excel) of the corrected spreadsheet -- available at our web site -- set up to work using Alliance' energy related emissions defaults. Link to: then scroll down & look for "emissions.zip" file link on the page. (you will need an archive program such as WinZip ) When you look at the spreadsheet, last updated in October 1997, you will notice the K factor for heat rate correction is set to 1.00. This means the 11,300 Btu/kWh source energy factor is un-modified. I left the factor input block there in case users had other heat rate data they wished to use to modify the default. Another erroneous value for K -- previously resulting in double-accounting problems -- is no longer hardwired in this version of the worksheet. The current file also contains cosmetic improvements from the initial "Lotus123" version originally made available in 1993. Hopefully this will assist members of the list. Regards, Bion -- cc: Marcus Sheffer, Stephen Offutt - EPA | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 22 12:57:19 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15091 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:57:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17862; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:54:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:50:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17578 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:50:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17564 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:50:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA22078 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 11:50:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from vna-va6-48.ix.netcom.com(207.223.176.112) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma022058; Tue Dec 22 11:49:42 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981222124717.0071bbc8@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:47:19 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: US DOE EIA Annual Energy Outlook 99 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5401 US DOE EIA Annual Energy Outlook 99 (Happy Holiday exploring from DOE) Check these links out: Main Web site -- Report -- PDF of "trends" document Some conclusions: -- by 2020 primary energy use will be 120 Quad/yr. -- 27% increase -v- '97 -- electricity expected to garner a larger share of the energy "pie" -- average home size will continue to increase (they aren't big enough now?) -- transportation fuel use will continue to be fasted rising component due to lack of new legislative efforts to improve fuel economy standards -- building codes will continue to reduce space heating demand ~ 25% -- natural gas will continue to decline as a residential fuel... and many more eye-popping conclusions... How do they do it? There are also a series of links to review the National Energy Model and its assumptions. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 22 15:17:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17149 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 15:17:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25189; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 15:14:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 22 Dec 1998 15:10:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA24761 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 15:09:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from teal.cr.usgs.gov (teal.cr.usgs.gov [159.189.176.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA24757 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 15:09:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from brdsmtp2.cr.usgs.gov by teal.cr.usgs.gov (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA05293; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:10:21 -0700 Received: from ccMail by brdsmtp2.cr.usgs.gov (IMA Internet Exchange 2.11 Enterprise) id 001FB3A6; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:09:09 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 15:05:57 -0700 Message-ID: <001FB3A6.@usgs.gov> From: FROG@usgs.gov (FROG) Subject: Re[2]: GBlist: RE:Timber framing and steel connectors To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5402 I looked into Simpson's connectors for a timberframe project we were doing, they didn't have the structural strength for the bigger projects in their standard sizes. Usually folks get a local metal fabricator to come up with the brackets straps etc. that you want. sam Sam Droege FROG@USGS.GOV w 301-497-5840 h 410-798-6759 fax 301-497-5784 USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center 12100 Beech Forest Dr., Laurel, Md 20708-4038 Http://www.mp1-pwrc.usgs.gov God forbid that Truth should be confined to Mathematical Demonstration! -William Blake ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: GBlist: RE:Timber framing and steel connectors Author: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) at NBS-Internet-Gateway Date: 12/22/98 10:30 AM I understand that Simpson Strong-Tie is developing a series of hidden metal connectors for light and heavy wood construction in the U.S. and Canadian markets. Simpson is in San Leandro, California - I don't know other contact info at this time. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 22 19:12:10 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21439 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:12:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05671; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:08:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:05:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05414 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:04:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05409 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:04:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.99.80]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA22351 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 00:08:59 +0000 Message-ID: <367FF5BD.D87BD26@which.net> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:40:45 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: heaters X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5403 First of all of course from a greenbuilding perpective, cost should not be the first issue. I have deleted the messages now but I don't think oil entered the discussion. A comparison was made with natural gas. Natural gas would be a first choice over oil since it burns much cleaner, but if gas is not available you could check a carbon calculator page for the emmissions from oil and see how it compares to that for electricity driving heat pumps, taking into account how the electricity is generated. Malcolm Scott --------- I have just been rereading the posts pro and con on heat pumps and on the impending end of cheap oil. One obvious question comes readily to mind - if in ten years we are facing the possibility of spiraling oil costs, why would anyone recommend an oil fired heating system over heat pumps or any other systems? Am I missing something here? Beverly Weiter ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 22 22:41:30 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA27826 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:41:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA11856; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:37:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:30:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA11559 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:30:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.gorge.net (mail.gorge.net [205.162.195.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA11555 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:30:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from gorge.net ([208.14.145.106]) by mail.gorge.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-54909U8000L800S0V35) with ESMTP id AAA129 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:23:46 -0800 Message-ID: <368065B0.1425C04F@gorge.net> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:38:30 -0800 From: Daniel Dancer Organization: ZeroCircles Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: To grid or not to grid? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5404 Here's my dilemna....I've always wanted to build an off the grid home but I live in the Columbia Basin with the cheapest electricity in the country. It's hydropower so it's clean to boot. The dams do kill salmon but solutions are in the works. It will cost me about 10K to bring power to my site...money that could be used in a home power system. We have a fair percentage of cloudy days in winter so my radiant floor heating system would have to be wood powered (I have plenty of oak...much, dead and in need of thinning). This would be somewhat polluting and I would need to use my generator on occassion as well. I would use propane also and perhaps a wind generator on this strawbale/earthberm home. Would anyone care to chime in what would be the "eco-correct" thing to do here? I'm a bit stuck. Thanks, Daniel Dancer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 22 22:53:36 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA27956 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:53:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12432; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:50:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:44:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA12040 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:43:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12036 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 22:43:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18671; Tue, 22 Dec 1998 20:44:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-113.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.113), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd018620; Tue Dec 22 20:43:56 1998 Message-ID: <3680751E.92B80AB4@primenet.com> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 20:44:14 -0800 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Dancer CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: To grid or not to grid? References: <368065B0.1425C04F@gorge.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5405 Dear Daniel, There are plenty of issues and areas for contribution to the "green" cause. I for one, would use the grid at 5 cents a kw hr. PV is very expensive and difficult in the Winter in your area. I am mostly PV where I live in Nogal, NM. where grid electric is 13 cents a kw hr. and there is more sun hours than just about anywhere in the US. That's one opinion. Regards, John Wilson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 23 10:14:11 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03459 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:14:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27917; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:10:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:06:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27617 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27609 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:06:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:02:20 -0500 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF36187D@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: GBlist: Geothermal Heat Pump Summary? Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 08:01:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5406 It seems like the above thread is winding down. Is anyone interested in summarizing what the list determined? This would be a big help for those of us who have not been paying close attention. The reason I suggest this is the following announcement was just delivered to me in the DOE email newsletter and I thought it sounded like exaggeration: "Geothermal heat pumps, also known as ground-source or water-source heat pumps, are the most energy-efficient, cost-effective, and environmentally friendly space conditioning systems available." This is my understanding of what was discussed: 1. When judging the environmental "cost" of a primarily electrically powered conditioning system, it is necessary to include the emissions from the losses due to transmission inefficiencies (which I understand are approx. 2x the energy actually used in the appliance). 2. Onsite consumption of fossil fuels is usually preferred due to the large transmission losses mentioned in item 1. 3. Natural gas is often considered the "best" fossil fuel as its use will help develop the infrastructure needed for more sustainable technology in the future. 4. While GHP's have been used in many areas of the globe, they seem to be more appropriate for projects where the loads are primarily cooling related. (?) Thanks, Drew (This is the rest of the DOE announcement:"To learn how they work, become familiar with the types available, and understand their benefits, obtain the recently published Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Clearinghouse (EREC) fact sheet, Geothermal Heat Pumps. Links to text-only and fully formatted versions of this publication are available on the EREC Fact Sheets page in EREN's Consumer Energy Information section located at .) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Drew George, Green Building Champion Bovis Construction Corp 7475 Wisconsin Avenue, 10th Floor Bethesda MD 20814 USA Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 http://www.bovis.com Drew.George@Bovis.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 23 11:20:52 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04777 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:20:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00931; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:12:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00296 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:12:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00270; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:12:16 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ467216; Wed, 23 Dec 98 09:11:43 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA21314; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:11:10 -0700 Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:11:10 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver Subject: GBlist: EE for GRID water & sewage Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5407 We are just finishing a report on our "Sustainable Home Water System" (on-site/in-house autonomous system) and want to compare our energy and environmental performance (including "externalities") with the energy and environmental costs of GRID connected water and sewage treatment: 1) treating and delivering city water in kwh/litre 2) treating sewage in kwh/litre If anyone has numbers for embodied energy requirements for the above your assistance would be appreciated. Merry Christmas to all. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 23 13:40:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA06918 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:40:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07633; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:35:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:31:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA07213 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:31:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07191; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:31:17 -0500 (EST) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 1EOEa12847; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:30:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <2ae01ef4.368136c6@aol.com> Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 13:30:30 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org, arilist@EROLS.COM, owner-stoves@crest.org, SAFETY@LIST.UVM.EDU, riskbiz@webcom.com, airqualitylitagation@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: IAQ Job Line Interactive Bulletin Board Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5408 *Please note this has been posted to several lists, my apologies if you receive more than one copy. The IAQ List has created an interactive bulletin board for sharing Job Listings & Openings in the IAQ & Related Fields. Feel free to post any openings for which you are seeking qualified candidates. Be sure to provide the specific qualifications you are looking for in an applicant & contact information. If you are a qualified IAQ professional or a professional in a related field who is seeking new employment feel free to leave a post with job requirements, a brief summary of qualifications and up-to-date contact information. IAQ Job Line Bulletin Board http://disc.server.com/Indices/39418.html (For those who do not have internet access you may subscribe to the IAQ Job Line List...once a week posted material will be transfered to this list & sent to subscribers. If you do this I would recommend that you subscribe to the digest version) TO SUBSCRIBE TO THE IAQ JOB LINE: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/IAQ_Job_Line The IAQ Job Line Bulletin Board is a free service provided by the IAQ List. The IAQ List assumes no responsibility for the content or accuracy of posts submitted to the IAQ Job Line Bulletin Board. Please be mindful that this is not a discussion board, this board was estabished for the sole purpose of connecting employers & potenial employees. For IAQ discussions you may go to: IAQ List (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq IAQ List (to search archives) http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/iaq Best of Luck! Regards, Cathy Flanders IAQ List Manager & Moderator Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq IAQ Listserve (to search archives) http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/iaq IAQ Bookmarks Page http://www.onelist.com/bookmarks.cgi?listname=iaq&yy=1073783288 IAQ Job Line Bulletin Board http://disc.server.com/Indices/39418.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 23 15:20:03 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA08345 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 15:20:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12210; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 15:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 23 Dec 1998 15:11:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA11647 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 15:11:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11642 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 15:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from myrtle.rtpnc.epa.gov by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26439) with ESMTP id <0F4F000DNOZ0T0@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 15:01:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26438) with SMTP id <0F4F00BV6OZ7UA@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 15:01:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 15:01:32 -0500 Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 14:55:57 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: Geothermal Heat Pump Summary? -Reply To: Drew.George@Bovis.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5409 I don't believe a number of issues were actually fully discussed, so maybe some of this discussion can be reopened. >"Geothermal heat pumps, also known as ground-source or water-source heat pumps, are the most energy-efficient, cost-effective, and environmentally friendly space conditioning systems available." ***The DOE rhetoric is a little strong; however, the 1993 EPA report did conclude that GHPs are the least polluting alternative among the usual types of heating and cooling systems. It also concluded that they were preferable from a total societal cost perspective. If you have not read this report, I recommend you familiarize yourself. (Call 1-888-782-7937 and ask for Space Conditioning: The Next Frontier). >1. When judging the environmental "cost" of a primarily electrically powered conditioning system, it is necessary to include the emissions from the losses due to transmission inefficiencies (which I understand are approx. 2x the energy actually used in the appliance). ***Most of the discussion centered around whether a GHP was preferable to a gas furnace for heating. For CO2 emissions, the conclusion was they were about even based on a national average generating mix, and would get better as emissions factors decline over the next 15 years. However, generating mixes vary significantly from place to place, so the average may not apply to your circumstance. ***Other pollutants (SO2 and NOx) are discussed in the report, and also differ based on generating mix, with gas doing better in some scenarios and worse in others. >2. Onsite consumption of fossil fuels is usually preferred due to the large transmission losses mentioned in item 1. ***Transmission losses are usually less than 10%; it's the generation losses that are large. It all comes back to efficiency. Burning fossil fuels on site for direct heating can never achieve 100% efficiency. It is possible for the combined efficiency of the power plant and heat pump to exceed that. In fact, the Space Conditioning report looks at the scenario of burning the gas at the wellhead with combined cycle turbines at high efficiencies, shipping the electricity to homes, and using that to power GHPs. That scenario is a big winner over shipping the gas to the homes for direct combustion. (And doesn't even account for the smaller infrastructure required, since only electricity T&D would be required) Once again, your generating mix is a very important consideration, and it changes over time, too. >4. While GHP's have been used in many areas of the globe, they seem to be more appropriate for projects where the loads are primarily cooling related. (?) ***There are good examples of their use in both heating and cooling climates. You tend to see the best results where there are significant cooling and heating loads rather than mostly one or the other. Some commercial applications have found that it helps to add some heating load to balance the system across seasons. ***A couple of points were not emphasized in the thread that may affect how one considers these choices. One would want to take year-round energy use and environmental impact into account, and the GHP can offer some advantages when looking at the big picture--not just heating. Most of the discussion was centered around comparing GHPs to gas furnaces. GHPs also supply cooling; gas furnaces do not. In almost any climate that requires mechanical cooling, the GHP will almost certainly outperform a central AC unit by a significant amount. Some GHPs have rated EERs above 20, with seasonal values (SEER) most likely even higher. Also, the GHP has no outdoor condensing unit, so it theoretically should have a longer life. Also, no noise is generated or space required outdoors (an aesthetic advantage). Most GHPs in residential applications provide domestic hot water through either a desuperheater (heat recovery unit) that provides hot water as a byproduct of heating and cooling, or a fully integrated water heating strategy. In effect summer hot water is provided for free by using the waste heat from the building. By comparison, good gas hot water heaters have typical Energy Factors in the 60% range. GHPs probably even outperform solar hot water with resistance backup on a full-year COP (for instance, if a solar water heater has a 50% solar fraction, its full-year COP will be less than 2.0; a GHP with dedicated water heating can provide a full year COP above 2.5) One contributor to the thread cited some examples of early failure of units in his vicinity. It might be wise to learn more about who the manufacturer and installer of those particular systems were. I believe those failures had to do with a heat exchanger problem. There is no reason to believe compressors in GHP units would not last as long as compressors in regular heat pumps, since they are manufactured by the same companies--primarily Copeland--and probably longer, since they are installed indoors like your refrigerator, rather than outdoors. I have been working with this industry for about four years, and have heard anecdotes on both sides. Yes, there have been some remarkable failures--usually caused by poor installation or inexperience. But there have also been a lot of success stories. As this list exemplifies, there are different solutions for every situation, and GHPs fit that bill--a solution for some situations, less appropriate for others. Someone else on the list made the statement: "Don't raise the bridge, lower the water." Generally, the more you can reduce your need for energy altogether, the less important your choice becomes. I'd love to reach the point where the contributors to this list are so successful that no one really cares about the system anymore, because they hardly need to use it. Best to all, Steve O. ============= Contact Information: Steve Offutt - ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html ============= >>> "George, Drew" 12/23/98 08:01am >>> It seems like the above thread is winding down. Is anyone interested in summarizing what the list determined? This would be a big help for those of us who have not been paying close attention. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 23 19:14:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA11914 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 19:14:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA20766; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 19:11:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 23 Dec 1998 19:07:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA20502 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 19:07:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA20497 for ; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 19:07:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.12] (newhenyusr0-a12.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.12]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA13281; Wed, 23 Dec 1998 18:07:35 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 19:10:32 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: GBlist: To grid or not to grid? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5410 Daniel, I've lived off grid in a home powered by PV's for almost 10 years, and micro-hydro for the last 3 years. The conventional economics of whether to hook up to the grid or go independent often favors off-grid if you have to pay a hook up fee as high as $10,000. And it doesn't really matter how cheap the electricity is if you have to pay $10k to get it. For that same amount you could probably get sufficient PV to power a very efficient house. I live in Northern New York, which is as cloudy as the Columbia Basin. It simply means you need more PV panels and/or some back up source such as a gasoline generator. A wind generator might also supply the needed winter back up if you have a decent wind site. Several advantages you have: 1.) You will be building a new house, which means you can use efficient appliances and designs. You aren't already wedded to an older inefficient house. 2.) You say you would enjoy living in an off-grid house. 3.) You won't have to worry about power outages, and perhaps spend a lot of money on a generator that you hardly ever use, like a lot of people around here did during the BIG ice storm. Even with their generators, they were hardly comfortable. As far as what is eco-correct.... I think the dams on the Columbia do a lot more ecological harm than just kill salmon. If it wasn't for those dams, the Hanford Nuclear Facility, with all it's long term radioactive pollution, would never have been located there. All that cheap hydro-power was needed to make the incredibly wasteful nuclear reactors possible. I'm sure if you talk to local environmentalists they could tell you dozens of more reasons why the dams are bad. If you hook up to the grid, you will have little incentive to conserve electricity. If you build off-grid you will become expert at conserving electricity and probably many other resources. You will also become much more in tune with nature: the path of the sun through the seasons, and with your local weather. I haven't regretted being off-grid. Some of the electrons which bring you this posting were generated by PV, and some by micro-hydro, and generating those particular electrons did much less harm to the earth. Chris Neurath you said: ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:38:30 -0800 From: Daniel Dancer Subject: GBlist: To grid or not to grid? Here's my dilemna....I've always wanted to build an off the grid home but I live in the Columbia Basin with the cheapest electricity in the country. It's hydropower so it's clean to boot. The dams do kill salmon but solutions are in the works. It will cost me about 10K to bring power to my site...money that could be used in a home power system. We have a fair percentage of cloudy days in winter so my radiant floor heating system would have to be wood powered (I have plenty of oak...much, dead and in need of thinning). This would be somewhat polluting and I would need to use my generator on occassion as well. I would use propane also and perhaps a wind generator on this strawbale/earthberm home. Would anyone care to chime in what would be the "eco-correct" thing to do here? I'm a bit stuck. Thanks, Daniel Dancer ------------------------------ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 24 07:18:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA18259 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 07:18:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA05825; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 07:14:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 24 Dec 1998 07:10:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA05628 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 07:10:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA05624 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 07:10:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on3-46.netcom.ca [207.181.90.174]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA18777; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 07:10:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981224065228.00aa85d0@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 07:08:22 -0400 To: STEPHEN OFFUTT From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Geothermal Heat Pump Summary? -Reply Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5411 At 02:55 PM 23/12/98 -0500, STEPHEN OFFUTT wrote: (snip) >Someone else on the list made the statement: "Don't raise the bridge, lower >the water." > >Generally, the more you can reduce your need for energy altogether, the less >important >your choice becomes. I'd love to reach the point where the contributors to >this list are >so successful that no one really cares about the system anymore, because >they hardly >need to use it. This is the part of the discussion that seems to be underemphasized, particularly for residential installations. This critical concept seems to be exceedingly hard to grasp for owner-builders designing their dream house after having lived in conventional houses. Perhaps it is because heat pumps are sexy technology that you can marvel at at the home show, whereas acoustical sealant, low-E windows, and HRV's tend to evoke boredom or mild hostility. The Saskatchewan House was built in 1976 in a 10,000 degree day climate, using what today would be considered very conventional conservation technologies. It heats with electric resistance heating for $30/yr (Canadian dollars, no less). It simply doesn't make sense to invest $10,000 in a heat pump to save $15 of electricity per year. The baseline heating system that you should be comparing your options to is the $29.95 1500w. plug in resistance heater from Walmart. Seriously. Happy holidays.............Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 24 09:20:02 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA18968 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:20:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08143; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:16:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:12:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07930 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:12:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07925 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:12:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.64] (rkd040.acadia.net [208.244.128.64]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA25236 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:13:14 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:12:08 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: To grid or not to grid? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5412 Dear Daniel, Thanks for your thoughtfulness on the question. Facing a $10,000 hookup fee, and considering your willingness to live a conserving life, I'd opt for off-grid. Chris Neurath gave you some great reasons. Here's another. To choose photovoltaics is to encourage and help mature an industry which could revolutionize energy production and distribution. What a great investment! Here in Maine, we live and work "on-grid" although many friends live great lives "off-grid". We're always working to lower our electric use; eventually we'd like to install PV's and tie them into the grid through an asynchronous inverter. Maine allows "net metering", so we'd like to be a micro-utility. It's likely that we'd be a net supplier in summer and a net consumer in winter. Anyway, net metering is a "middle path" in the grid/non-grid question. Good luck with your decision. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 24 10:10:45 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19416 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:10:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09324; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:07:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:03:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09037 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:03:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09033 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:03:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-2-76.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.2.76]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA02942; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:03:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36825953.436FA08B@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 10:10:11 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Norbert Senf CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Geothermal Heat Pump Summary? -Reply References: <4.1.19981224065228.00aa85d0@mha-net.org> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------65E209A2C6C3A75B23430E72" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5413 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------65E209A2C6C3A75B23430E72 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Norbert, You make the argument sound like such a no-brainer. Like why would anyone ever consider a heat-pump. Do you consider the cooling side of the problem? Is the 'summer' temperature in Saskatchewan never hot enough that it requires (or that people might want) indoor temperatures reduced? Do you think in a wetter climate with hot humdid summers and cold humid winters (and more overcast) that a heat pump might make a lot of sense? (like say the BC coast?) (one could say just live with the heat, but one could say just live with the cold too.) Second question: Any where I can get info on the Saskatchewan House and its history (i.e. design, life-cycle maintanence issues.) I'm in Ontario and I am sure a lot of what was done there would apply here (Not quite as much sun unfortunately.) With that project coming up on 25 years I would really like to here what its been through. Neil Norbert Senf wrote: > > At 02:55 PM 23/12/98 -0500, STEPHEN OFFUTT wrote: > (snip) > >Someone else on the list made the statement: "Don't raise the bridge, lower > >the water." > > > >Generally, the more you can reduce your need for energy altogether, the less > >important > >your choice becomes. I'd love to reach the point where the contributors to > >this list are > >so successful that no one really cares about the system anymore, because > >they hardly > >need to use it. > > This is the part of the discussion that seems to be underemphasized, > particularly for residential installations. This critical concept seems to > be exceedingly hard to grasp for owner-builders designing their dream house > after having lived in conventional houses. Perhaps it is because heat pumps > are sexy technology that you can marvel at at the home show, whereas > acoustical sealant, low-E windows, and HRV's tend to evoke boredom or mild > hostility. > > The Saskatchewan House was built in 1976 in a 10,000 degree day climate, > using what today would be considered very conventional conservation > technologies. It heats with electric resistance heating for $30/yr > (Canadian dollars, no less). It simply doesn't make sense to invest $10,000 > in a heat pump to save $15 of electricity per year. The baseline heating > system that you should be comparing your options to is the $29.95 1500w. > plug in resistance heater from Walmart. Seriously. > > Happy holidays.............Norbert Senf > ---------------------------------------- > Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org > Masonry Stove Builders > RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb > Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 > ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" --------------65E209A2C6C3A75B23430E72 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="nspiegel.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Neil Spiegel Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="nspiegel.vcf" begin:vcard n:Spiegel;Neil x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;;Toronto;Ontario;M5R 3E9;Canada version:2.1 email;internet:nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca title:Outsourcing Technical Project Manager tel;fax:416-534-7888 tel;work:416-534-9792 note:I suggest the purple, I think it looks wonderful on you. Oh no, no, no, I should say I prefer the yellow. x-mozilla-cpt:;65535 fn:Neil Spiegel end:vcard --------------65E209A2C6C3A75B23430E72-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 24 11:16:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA19885 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:16:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11397; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:12:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:09:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA11076 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:08:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA11072 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:08:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.145]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.08) id 7573100 ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:16:47 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981224110430.006a02d8@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 11:04:30 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: ground source heat pumps, Summary? In-Reply-To: <199812240700.CAA01194@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5414 >I don't believe a number of issues were actually fully discussed, so maybe some of this >discussion can be reopened. > >>"Geothermal heat pumps, also known as ground-source or water-source >heat pumps, are the most energy-efficient, cost-effective, and >environmentally friendly space conditioning systems available." Excellent summary Stephen. It just bothers me when I see (hear) statements like the above, hence my entry into the discussion. Blanket, one-size-fits-all conclusions can be very misleading. Folks should not automatically assume that GSHP are the most environmentally beign systems. Examine the environmental impacts based on your electric generation mix. In my neck of the woods over 90% of PA's electricity comes from coal and nukes. In areas where electricity is generated mostly by natural gas or hydro the environmental impacts will be quite different (notice I did not say better just different especially in the case of hydro). Using national averages the GSHP in the heating mode was even with the gas furnace in CO2 impacts. However, the SO2 (acid rain), NOx (smog), and particulates figures are clearly in favor of the gas furnace. My calculations show that, taking into account equipment efficiency, the GSHP would produce 672 times more SO2, 5.5 more NOx, and 32 times more particulates (figures were calculated in lbs of pollutant/end use BTU, no multiplier applied to the electric figure [thanks for the correction Stephen]). Anyone disagree? Of course, you should use local figures based on your generation mix to determine the impacts of individual projects. Impacts on the cooling end should also be included. In residential situations I whole heartily agree that we need to reduce the need for BTUs through efficiency, conservation, and passive solar techniques. If my conditioning requirements only cost me a few hundred dollars a year I would never be able to payback the cost of a GSHP. Design to lower the loads, then determine the best system to meet those loads. In commercial buildings these lower loads are more difficult to achieve becasue many of the loads come from inside the building (lights, people, equipment) but the same principles apply. Lower the loads. In my experience based on several commercial projects in my area the payback for a GSHP system is between 6 and 12 years. The payback is similar to many gas-cooling options. Either way it is often a difficult sell based strictly on economics. Another point that I made in an earlier post is that GSHP still use R22, an ozone destroying refrigerant. In several Green project I have worked on, one of the requirements is that no CFCs or HCFCs are used by the mechanical system or in the manufacture of any building products. Is anyone aware of a manufacturer using R410a or anyother alternative refrigerant in a GSHP? As expressed in several posts maintenance and logevity are also issues. Like Stephen, I have seen both situations, premature failure and good systems. GSHPs should have a similar life to water source heat pumps (both are installed indoors). Typical compressor life is about 8-12 years, some I have seen have lasted as long as 20 years, some as short as 4 years. This potential replacement cost should be factored into a life cycle costing analysis (typically done for a 20 or 25 year time frame). In short, when it comes to HVAC systems look at the big picture, thoroughly analyze your options, and base your decision on as much information as you can gather. Absolute statements about energy efficiency, cost-effectiveness, and environmental impacts are not usually very helpful as a guide for making decisions. Happy Holidays to one and all. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 24 12:18:21 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20450 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 12:18:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13534; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 12:14:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 24 Dec 1998 12:11:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13250 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 12:10:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from Prime-FE1.lvcablemodem.com (prime-fe1.lvcablemodem.com [24.234.0.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13245 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 12:10:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from lvcm.com - 24.234.4.35 by lvcablemodem.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:14:41 -0800 Message-ID: <368275AF.2251AEB2@lvcm.com> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:11:11 -0800 From: recorder2 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Modified Bitumen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5415 I am looking for a surfacing material for the (flat) roof of the sun room (16' x 64') I am building to be used as an observation deck and to sleep out at night which is tough and completely waterproof. I just read about modified bitumen which, though expensive, would seem to do the job. However, how environmentally friendly is this stuff??!! Are there other materials which folks could suggest for this roof? I am also looking for folks to help me build this sun room which will include earthen floors, a small lap pool, large PV system, and solar hot water heating system. Since I am now partially handicapped, I can no longer do this work myself. (Pool meets essential therapeutic needs.) Thanks, Jim Phypers Tucson, Arizona (Take a look at the plans and several three dimensional drawings at: http://u1.lvcm.com/recorder2/trailer.html.) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 24 13:50:43 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA21427 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:50:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17037; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:47:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:43:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA16807 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:43:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16803 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from sachs.erols.com (207-172-38-93.s93.tnt8.ann.erols.com [207.172.38.93]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA13648; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:43:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981224134518.006cd048@pop.erols.com> X-Sender: sachs@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:45:18 -0500 To: Marcus Sheffer , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Harvey M. Sachs" Subject: GBlist: Re: ground source heat pumps, Summary? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981224110430.006a02d8@cyberia.com> References: <199812240700.CAA01194@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5416 Scheffer (MS), Steve Offutt (SO, quoted by MS) and I (HS) continue the dialogue: MS: I don't believe a number of issues were actually fully discussed, so maybe >some of this discussion can be reopened. >> SO: "Geothermal heat pumps, also known as ground-source or water-source >>heat pumps, are the most energy-efficient, cost-effective, and >>environmentally friendly space conditioning systems available." > MS: Excellent summary Stephen. It just bothers me when I see (hear) statements >like the above, hence my entry into the discussion. Blanket, >one-size-fits-all conclusions can be very misleading. HS: Agreed. Folks should not >automatically assume that GSHP are the most environmentally beign systems. >Examine the environmental impacts based on your electric generation mix. >In my neck of the woods over 90% of PA's electricity comes from coal and >nukes. In areas where electricity is generated mostly by natural gas or >hydro the environmental impacts will be quite different (notice I did not >say better just different especially in the case of hydro). > >Using national averages the GSHP in the heating mode was even with the gas >furnace in CO2 impacts. However, the SO2 (acid rain), NOx (smog), and >particulates figures are clearly in favor of the gas furnace. My >calculations show that, taking into account equipment efficiency, the GSHP >would produce 672 times more SO2, 5.5 more NOx, and 32 times more >particulates (figures were calculated in lbs of pollutant/end use BTU, no >multiplier applied to the electric figure [thanks for the correction >Stephen]). Anyone disagree? Of course, you should use local figures based >on your generation mix to determine the impacts of individual projects. >Impacts on the cooling end should also be included. HS: I have no reason to disagree, haven't checked the numbers. > MS: In residential situations I whole heartily agree that we need to reduce the >need for BTUs through efficiency, conservation, and passive solar >techniques. If my conditioning requirements only cost me a few hundred >dollars a year I would never be able to payback the cost of a GSHP. Design >to lower the loads, then determine the best system to meet those loads. HS: I'm only concerned about the second sentence, about payback. Let me offer two thoughts: (1) For houses with their own potable water wells, piggybacking an open loop ground source heat pump system can be very cost-effective. Lots of examples in New England, etc. (2) Where natural gas is not available, the water heating alternatives are fewer, and the ability to integrate domestic water heating with a "triple-function" ground source unit can really impact economics. I think that most folks are not green enough to be delighted to cut back water use by the same factor they improve shell. GHPC is funding monitoring of 2 triple-function systems now (work by NAHB-RC). From that and other work, I do not want to underestimate the importance of smart installation if the water heating is to help the customer and the environment. > MS: In commercial buildings these lower loads are more difficult to achieve >becasue many of the loads come from inside the building (lights, people, >equipment) but the same principles apply. Lower the loads. HS: commercial buildings that are designed to code and bigger than a few thousand square feet will be driven by ventilation loads. These loads can be met more or less efficiently and wisely (good occupancy strategy), but cannot be ignored. In addition, as size increases, the ratio of cooling to heating annual energy use rises: For one hotel GHPC is monitoring just Southeast of Syracuse, NY, annual heat rejection is larger than annual heat extraction, so the 40 tons of water-to-water heat pumps on the loops helps limit its size. MS: In my >experience based on several commercial projects in my area the payback for >a GSHP system is between 6 and 12 years. The payback is similar to many >gas-cooling options. Either way it is often a difficult sell based >strictly on economics. HS: Where there is a decent infrastructure (experienced loopers) I expect a school larger than 50,000 - 75,000 sq. feet or so to have a lower first cost with geothermal than with alternatives offering the same amenity (4-pipe, VAV). Among other things, one can get quite adequate control with thermostats and VSD on the circulator pump, w/o EMS. I've seen school EMS numbers >$3/sq.ft, and an adequate EMS for GHP will be <$1. There are lots of engineers bringing in very cost-effective systems. > >MS: Another point that I made in an earlier post is that GSHP still use R22, an >ozone destroying refrigerant. In several Green project I have worked on, >one of the requirements is that no CFCs or HCFCs are used by the mechanical >system or in the manufacture of any building products. Is anyone aware of >a manufacturer using R410a or anyother alternative refrigerant in a GSHP? HS: I know of alternative refrigerants being used only in specialized systems. GX industry will shift when Copeland and the other compressor makers shift. > MS: As expressed in several posts maintenance and logevity are also issues. >Like Stephen, I have seen both situations, premature failure and good >systems. GSHPs should have a similar life to water source heat pumps (both >are installed indoors). Typical compressor life is about 8-12 years, some >I have seen have lasted as long as 20 years, some as short as 4 years. >This potential replacement cost should be factored into a life cycle >costing analysis (typically done for a 20 or 25 year time frame). HS: I'm sorry, Marcus, but here I will disagree rather vigorously with your anecdotal remarks -- without denying their validity, the industry has gone to real pain to get real survey data on buildlings that have had consistent maintenance histories. 25 buildings in first pass, just upped to 38 buildings. Work by Caneta Research, published last summer by ASHRAE. Available free as RP-024 (with methods) or RS-024 (summary with graphs) from GHPC, info@ghpc.org>. short answers: mean service life for water source is 19 years (ASHRAE handbook, not Caneta survey). Actual costs for maintenance are under $0.10/sq.ft-yr median, for owner-supplied maintenance, perhaps slightly above for contracted maintenance. But see the ASHRAE handbook for comparisons in the >30 cents/sq-ft-yr range for other commercial systems. Earlier work by Ross for EPRI suggests (based on survivorship concepts and field studies) that compressor life is decades (40 - 50 yr) if water temperatures and air flow are appropriate (as I recall the report). Most compressors fail because operating conditions are outside design envelope: too little air flow, too little water flow, etc. Caneta survey (last figure) shows compressor failure rates <1%/yr. > >MS: In short, when it comes to HVAC systems look at the big picture, thoroughly >analyze your options, and base your decision on as much information as you >can gather. Absolute statements about energy efficiency, >cost-effectiveness, and environmental impacts are not usually very helpful >as a guide for making decisions. HS: I agree completely. > >MS: Happy Holidays to one and all. HS: I agree completely. > > > >===================================================================== >Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services >Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 >1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 >Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com >===================================================================== >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 24 14:05:07 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA21577 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:05:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA17620; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:01:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:58:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17318 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:57:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17314 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:57:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-33.netmeg.net [208.139.83.96]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA17608; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:58:18 -0500 Message-ID: <36828EF1.E2A04FEC@swinter.com> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:58:57 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Harvey M. Sachs" CC: Marcus Sheffer , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: ground source heat pumps, Summary? References: <199812240700.CAA01194@solstice.crest.org> <3.0.3.32.19981224134518.006cd048@pop.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5417 Let's all have a great holiday! debra lombard green-haus http://home.earthlink.net/~dlombard ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 24 16:55:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA23523 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:55:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA23008; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:51:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:47:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22757 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:47:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22753 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:47:37 -0500 (EST) From: EcoAmazon@aol.com Received: from EcoAmazon@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 1SJYa12842 for ; Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:45:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <65c623cb.3682b604@aol.com> Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 16:45:40 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Request for Info: Eco-Village Eco-Criteria Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_914535931_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5418 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_914535931_boundary Content-ID: <0_914535931@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII --part0_914535931_boundary Content-ID: <0_914535931@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: EcoAmazon@aol.com Return-path: To: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Request for Info: Eco-Village Eco-Criteria Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 14:26:15 EST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'm looking for brief words or pointers to web docs, etc. about green building criteria for eco-villages. A large national magazine has asked me to flesh out a query on this subject. To determine whether this is a story, they want to know how eco-villages are "ecological," compared to conventional developments. Ideally, I'll get a "go" on the article, and profile several eco-villages, perhaps providing needed publicity for some projects out there. Please respond to me directly. Thanks in advance. Carol Steinfeld --part0_914535931_boundary-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 25 23:17:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03514 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:17:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA24463; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:09:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23877 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:08:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23866 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:08:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.111] (ka3-111.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.111]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.9.1+DND/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA05273; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:09:23 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <368065B0.1425C04F@gorge.net> Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 14:27:10 -0500 To: Daniel Dancer , Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: To grid or not to grid? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id XAA23868 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5419 Sgrìobh Daniel Dancer: > Here's my dilemna....I've always wanted to build an off the grid home > but I live in the Columbia Basin with the cheapest electricity in the > country. It's hydropower so it's clean to boot. The dams do kill salmon > but solutions are in the works. It will cost me about 10K to bring power > to my site...money that could be used in a home power system. We have a > fair percentage of cloudy days in winter so my radiant floor heating > system would have to be wood powered (I have plenty of oak...much, dead > and in need of thinning). This would be somewhat polluting and I would > need to use my generator on occassion as well. I would use propane also > and perhaps a wind generator on this strawbale/earthberm home. > > Would anyone care to chime in what would be the "eco-correct" thing to > do here? I'm a bit stuck. If you're going to spend $10,000 to bring power in, you might as well go with a stand-alone system. You'll avoid power outages, you'll be far more motivated to conserve resources, you'll support the renewables industry, and you'll be another person whom some portion of the general public will think of when they think about alternative systems themselves. If you build the house right you'll be able to heat it with a small amount of wood, no problem. The wood is going to decay anyway, especially in your scenario where you have dead timber standing. You'll just slightly accelerate the process, but in doing so you'll open an area where trees can grow and sequester more than you burn, probably. I'd have gone with an off-grid system, but grid power cost me next to nothing to bring in, so I'm on the grid for now and building efficiently, and I'll put in an intertie in a few years. There's no doubt that I'd conserve more if I were motivated by absolute necessity, though. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Dec 25 23:17:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03515 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:17:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA24465; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:08:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23851 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:08:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23847 for ; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:08:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.111] (ka3-111.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.111]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.9.1+DND/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA03126; Fri, 25 Dec 1998 23:09:13 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36825953.436FA08B@atlasinc.on.ca> References: <4.1.19981224065228.00aa85d0@mha-net.org> Date: Fri, 25 Dec 1998 14:32:56 -0500 To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca, Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Geothermal Heat Pump Summary? -Reply Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id XAA23848 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5420 Sgrìobh Neil Spiegel: > You make the argument sound like such a no-brainer. Like why would anyone > ever consider a > heat-pump. Do you consider the cooling side of the problem? Is the > 'summer' temperature in > Saskatchewan never hot enough that it requires (or that people might > want) indoor > temperatures reduced? Do you think in a wetter climate with hot humdid > summers and cold > humid winters (and more overcast) that a heat pump might make a lot of > sense? (like say > the BC coast?) (one could say just live with the heat, but one could say > just live with > the cold too.) I don't know about Saskatchewan, but here in west central New Hampshire I've seldom seen temperatures which would greatly annoy people in *well-built* houses with appropriate thermal mass. I *have* been in some light-and-not-particularly-tight houses where I was uncomfortable. I don't expect to be in the house I'm building now. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Dec 26 11:29:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA06439 for ; Sat, 26 Dec 1998 11:29:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07523; Sat, 26 Dec 1998 11:25:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 26 Dec 1998 11:21:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07276 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 26 Dec 1998 11:21:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from sims-ha.videotron.net (faure.videotron.net [205.151.222.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07268 for ; Sat, 26 Dec 1998 11:21:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from videotron.ca (ppp129.131.mmtl.videotron.net) by sims-ha.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34) with ESMTP id <0F4K0016HXSLOD@sims-ha.videotron.net> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sat, 26 Dec 1998 11:00:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 1998 10:56:36 -0500 From: Wade Eide Subject: GBlist: Permanence To: "Beverly A. Weiter" Cc: GWB9473@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <36850734.5B741B13@videotron.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <19981215.112116.9374.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5421 In an article dated 15 December 1998, Beverly Weiter evoked the idea of "cradle to grave" considerations. She pointed out that the "concept of sustainable design does include sustainable resourcing. I know that many of us on this list also try to take these concerns in consideration in material selection." I think that an awareness of the global impacts of materials we select is of utmost importance. We need to ask ourselves questions like: How is the material produced? Will the material present any health risks either during or after installation? What happens to the material if and when it is removed from the building? In addition to these cradle to grave considerations, I think that we might do well to approach most, if not all, of our building projects with the expectation that these structures are going to be permanent. On an absolute scale, of course, there is no such thing a permanence in the universe, but there is really no reason why buildings cannot last hundreds or even thousands of years. All over the world, even in the Americas, there are human constructions that are still useful after a thousand or more years of existence. In neo-european cities like Montreal, there are buildings dating from the 19th, 18th and even 17th centuries that remain perfectly functional today. This expectation of permanence necessitates a return to building cities. Over the last half of this century, the vast bulk of building has been in the far-flung suburbs, where very little is expected to last much more than fifty or so years. (Indeed, many of us are comforted by the fact that we will not have to endure those strip malls and cheap bungalows forever!) The short term economics of this type of building has, unfortunately, permeated the construction industry. We all work for clients who demand fast, and who demand cheap. Builders are more than happy to comply and will often substitute materials that are even cheaper and flimsier than the ones we specified. City building, on the other hand, requires a different mindset. There is an expectation that buildings contribute in a positive way to the public domain, to the common good. The building should be built solidly, with permanent materials like stone and masonry, and it should be in functional and aesthetic harmony with its neighbours. The same expectations of durability should also apply to interior finishing materials and fixtures. This attitude towards construction need not be limited to public buildings. Residential construction can be just as permanent. The true cradle to grave considerations would apply to those parts of the building that are likely to be changed or worn out over a period of time, such as interior partitions and certain finishes such as carpets or paints. For the rest of the building, let's try to push the "grave" part of the consideration as far into the future as possible. Wade Eide Montreal ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 27 07:48:17 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA17259 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 07:48:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA05855; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 07:44:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 27 Dec 1998 07:40:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA05624 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 07:40:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA05620 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 07:40:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-34.netcom.ca [207.181.90.98]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA19219; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 07:40:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981227065121.00ab5eb0@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 07:37:46 -0400 To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Geothermal Heat Pump Summary? -Reply Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <36825953.436FA08B@atlasinc.on.ca> References: <4.1.19981224065228.00aa85d0@mha-net.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5422 At 10:10 AM 24/12/98 -0500, nspiegel wrote: >You make the argument sound like such a no-brainer. Like why would anyone >ever consider a >heat-pump. Do you consider the cooling side of the problem? Is the 'summer' >temperature in >Saskatchewan never hot enough that it requires (or that people might want) >indoor >temperatures reduced? Here in the Ottawa area, we have some 95F days in summer, but nights are generally cool enough that if your house has mass and is shaded, you don't need air conditioning. However, lots of people have it because their house/landscaping doesn't perform anywhere near what's possible - understandable in an old house, wasteful in a new house (IMHO). Do you think in a wetter climate with hot humdid >summers and cold >humid winters (and more overcast) that a heat pump might make a lot of >sense? (like say >the BC coast?) (one could say just live with the heat, but one could say >just live with >the cold too.) Parts of the BC coast I've seen (Vancouver and the Gulf Islands) have a pretty mild heating and cooling climate compared to Ottawa. However, older houses can use more energy than houses here in Ottawa because people don't tend to bother with storm windows, etc. I'd fix the leaks in the bucket first before installing a bigger faucet. Designing for hot/humid climates is another kettle of fish, I'm sure. No doubt conservation can play a large role there as well in reducing cooling loads. >Second question: >Any where I can get info on the Saskatchewan House and its history (i.e. >design, >life-cycle maintanence issues.) I'm in Ontario and I am sure a lot of what >was done there >would apply here (Not quite as much sun unfortunately.) With that project >coming up on 25 >years I would really like to here what its been through. > We've got a bit of info about the Saskatchewan Conservation House on our links page at http://mha-net.org/msb/html/msblinks.htm The big innovations were superinsulation, an airtight envelope and a prototype HRV. It was built by the Saskatechewan Research Council to demonstrate conservation technology, and is the basis for R-2000 and the related technologies that we see today. Interestingly, the bureaucratic overseers wanted it to be a solar demonstration house, and insisted on installing a $60,000 active solar system (they weren't convinced that the conservation measures would work - nobody had ever done it before). So, people tour the house and think that it is solar heated, when in fact the heating load is virtually zero. There's a good chapter on it by David Orr, one of the designers, in "The Well-Tempered House", Robert Argue, ed., 1980. (Out of print, but I see the odd copy in used bookstores.) Some of the people at CMHC such as Don Fugler or Oliver Drerup might have some more current information. Best............Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 27 10:24:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17894 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:24:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09764; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:20:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:17:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09473 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:16:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09469 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 10:16:57 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ154738; Sun, 27 Dec 98 08:14:32 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA34216; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 08:13:56 -0700 Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 08:13:55 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Gilles Leclair Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: 20% of the population takes 80% of the resources In-Reply-To: <19981218053140Z525630-13096+1871@edtnps05.telusplanet.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5423 You said: "the average North American (oh what the heck lets include the Japenese, the Australians and the majority of Europeans) who comprise no more than 20% of the world population are consuming over 80% of the worlds resources." _________________________________________________________________________ Gilles: Do you or anyone have a good reference for the above quote taken from your recent discussion of "Oil Availability"? Jorg ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 27 16:12:47 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([209.67.217.1] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA21538 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 16:12:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA19282; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 16:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 27 Dec 1998 16:04:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA19049 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 16:04:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from minden.netsurf.de (privat.kkf.net [212.63.32.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19045 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 16:04:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from privat.kkf.net (mi-dial30.privat.kkf.net [212.63.37.30]) by minden.netsurf.de (8.8.8/8.8.3) with SMTP id WAA24134 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 22:03:00 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199812272103.WAA24134@minden.netsurf.de> Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 22:03:54 +0100 From: "Alexander.Neumann" Reply-To: "Alexander.Neumann" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: 20% of the population takes 80% of the resources X-Mailer: AK-Mail 3.0b [ger] (unregistered) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA19046 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5424 > no more than 20% of the world population are consuming over 80% > of the worlds resources." > _________________________________________________________________________ > Gilles: Do you or anyone have a good reference for the above quote taken > from your recent discussion of "Oil Availability"? Jorg ostrowski I can quote Professor Dr. Hans-Peter Duerr of the Max-Planck-Institut fuer Physik in Munich. In an article on a sustainable future society he states that the average US-american consumes 11 kW/h per hour, a german 6 kW and a chinese 0.8 kW. Further he says that the top "harmless" world energy consumption would be around 9 billion kW, or about 1,5 kW per person, which is supposed to be 20% of the incoming solar energy. This equals the swiss standard of living of 1969, so it´s well within the modern comfort range. (Energiedepesche, IV 1998, magazine of the "Bund der Energieverbraucher" or "Pfennigfuchser"),( http:/www.oneworldweb.de/energiedepesche/). Yours, Alex N. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 27 16:42:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA21708 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 16:42:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20228; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 16:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 27 Dec 1998 16:35:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA19981 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 16:35:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from TABOR2 (ns4.webaccess.net [198.93.194.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19977 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 16:35:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from Rambo - 204.160.204.117 by webaccess.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 14:22:59 -0700 Message-ID: <000c01be31e0$49ec2280$75cca0cc@Rambo> From: "S.H.E.A." To: Subject: GBlist: atrium insulated glass/plastic Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 14:31:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE31A5.9B529CC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5425 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE31A5.9B529CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am getting ready to build an off the grid house in the mountains of = Colorado. The site has fantastic southern exposure and the plans = include a large atrium. I am trying to find an insulated product for = the atrium. Something that has a good R rating and is easy to work = with. We will have several custom windows that will need to be cut. = (nothing fancy, just some triangles). Any suggestions. Thank you for you input Lora ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE31A5.9B529CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am getting ready to build an off = the grid=20 house in the mountains of Colorado.  The site has fantastic = southern=20 exposure and the plans include a large atrium.  I am trying to find = an=20 insulated product for the atrium.  Something that has a good R = rating and=20 is easy to work with.  We will have several custom windows that = will need=20 to be cut.  (nothing fancy, just some triangles).  Any=20 suggestions.
 
Thank you for you input
Lora
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01BE31A5.9B529CC0-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Dec 27 20:57:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA23514 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:57:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA28111; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:53:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:49:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA27789 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:49:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA27785 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:49:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.59] (rkd035.acadia.net [208.244.128.59]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA11196 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:50:16 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 20:49:09 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Modified Bitumen Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5426 >I am looking for a surfacing material for the (flat) roof of the sun >room (16' x 64') I am building to be used as an observation deck and to >sleep out at night which is tough and completely waterproof. > Dear Jim, Here in Maine, whenever we're forced to do a flat roof, we use an EPDM rubber membrane, which has, for us, stood the test of time as a tough, durable, membrane. But even then, we always specify that there be no direct contact between the membrane and objects such as equipment, feet, etc. We usually allow for a wooden deck, on 2x4 sleepers laid flat, on top of heavy rubber pads. Since most roofing materials have at least some negative environmental aspects, we prefer materials that last a long time and can at least be recycled at the end of their useful life. I think this is true of EPDm. Good luck. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Dec 28 22:09:40 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07488 for ; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA20830; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:05:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:01:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA20570 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:01:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.capecod.net (mailhost.capecod.net [204.255.214.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20566 for ; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:01:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrbh.capecod.net (camb0135.capecod.net [209.244.244.135]) by mailhost.capecod.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id WAA07257 for ; Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:01:32 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19981228220531.006d09b8@capecod.net> X-Sender: mrbh@capecod.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 22:05:31 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Bruce Hammond/Megan Ryan Subject: GBlist: insulating a damp basement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5427 Dear Greenbuilding Group, I recently bought a house with a cinder block basement that gets damp in the summer. The ceiling of the basement, between the floor joists, is stuffed with fiberglass insulation. Mice have nested in this insulation, and I want to remove it because it is ugly. The question is, what is the best way to insulate the basement? I don't want to put a ceiling in and close up the joists, due to the mice and sweating water pipes. I would prefer to have the ceiling open and insulate the walls. Someone suggested screwing wood strips into the walls, and mounting foam insulation panels on that. If the cellar leaks, water could then run behind the foam panels and down to the floor. Alternatively, I've thought about cutting foam panels to fit between the ceiling joists, against the floor boards and above the sweating pipes. I would be very interested in your recommendations or other options to consider. Thanks very much! Bruce Hammond ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 29 05:32:51 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA10862 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 05:32:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA00753; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 05:29:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Dec 1998 05:24:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA00560 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 05:24:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from server.totalnetnh.net (server.totalnetnh.net [216.64.14.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA00556 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 05:24:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [216.64.14.37] (s7.terminal1.totalnetnh.net [216.64.14.37]) by server.totalnetnh.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA20643 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 05:22:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199812291022.FAA20643@server.totalnetnh.net> Subject: GBlist: Re: Permanence Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 05:25:37 -0500 x-sender: wsmith@server.totalnetnh.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bill Smith To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5428 In response to Wade Eides message I would like to mention a couple of my personal hot button issues which he touched upon. Land use: Are one to five acre lots for single family housing in any way sustainable? I sure think not. While this list is focused on building rather that land use planning issues I would hope that we would all remember that every building we put up extends our Bill Smith Concord, NH williammsmith@usa.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 29 08:35:00 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA11658 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:35:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04466; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:31:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:26:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04162 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:26:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04158 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:26:00 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id SGFWa07581; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:25:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <570ab9df.3688d852@aol.com> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 08:25:38 EST To: mrbh@capecod.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: insulating a damp basement Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5429 In a message dated 98-12-28 22:03:19 EST, mrbh@capecod.net writes: << Someone suggested screwing wood strips into the walls, and mounting foam insulation panels on that. If the cellar leaks, water could then run behind the foam panels and down to the floor. >> seems to me you first have to discover WHY the basement is leaking -- check outside for drainage away from the house, where do the downspouts go ?? are they properly attached, do they have leaders going far enough away from the house ?? are the gutters cleaned out ---- does the ground slope toward the house, if so, can you regrade to swale away ?? before even thinking about any inside insulation, you need to figure out where the water is coming from --- if cannot fix from outside, there are numerous and sundry inside fixes (and lots of scoundrels out there trying to sell them ) but some good systems, generally NOT cheap Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 29 10:15:50 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12481 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:15:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08511; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:12:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:08:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08038 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:07:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from Bespin.worldnet.net (root@bespin.worldnet.net [195.3.3.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08034 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:07:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from worldnet.sct.fr (p13-132.province.worldnet.fr [195.3.13.132]) by Bespin.worldnet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA08606 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:07:31 +0100 (CET) From: "Geres" To: Subject: GBlist: bioclimatism software Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:02:39 +0100 Message-ID: <01be333c$65524f60$840d03c3@worldnet.sct.fr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE3344.C716B760" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5430 Message en plusieurs parties et au format MIME. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE3344.C716B760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi We are working on a onion storage building in Africa so we are = looking for a simple computer program which can modelise sunshine = radiation, moisture and ventillation in 2 zones building. We are looking for software to modelise greenhouse in cold dry = climate. What's out there? What do you like? What's usefull for what jobs Best regards Vincent _________________________ GERES 2, cours Mar=E9chal Foch 13400 AUBAGNE FRANCE Tel : 33 4 42 18 55 88 Fax : 33 4 42 03 01 56 E-mail : geres@worldnet.fr Site web : http://services.worldnet.net/geres_fr ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE3344.C716B760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi
 
        We are working on a = onion=20 storage building in Africa so we are looking for a simple computer = program which=20 can modelise sunshine radiation, moisture and ventillation in 2 zones=20 building.
        We are looking for = software to=20 modelise greenhouse in cold dry climate. 
 
What's out there? What do you like? = What's usefull=20 for what jobs
 
Best regards
 
Vincent
_________________________

GERES
2, cours=20 Maréchal Foch
13400 AUBAGNE FRANCE
Tel : 33 4 42 18 55 = 88
Fax :=20 33 4 42 03 01 56
E-mail : geres@worldnet.fr
Site web : http://services.worldnet.n= et/geres_fr
------=_NextPart_000_0016_01BE3344.C716B760-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 29 10:43:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12927 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:43:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09974; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:39:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:35:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09642 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:35:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09638 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:35:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip220.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.220]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA30646; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:36:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981229153254.009c05dc@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:32:54 -0500 To: Bruce Hammond/Megan Ryan , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: insulating a damp basement Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5431 At 10:05 PM 12/28/1998 -0500, Bruce Hammond/Megan Ryan wrote: >Dear Greenbuilding Group, > >I recently bought a house with a cinder block basement that gets damp in >the summer ... You most likely are just having basement condensation problems due to warm summer air hitting colder surfaces, pipes, cinder block walls, etc.. Option 1: Remove old f/g batts & spray 3" of demilac or icyene on underside of subflooring to insulate & air-seal basement from conditioned house. Permanently close and seal all basement vents, windows, etc. to exterior. If you do have bulk water leaks in the basement walls, then making sure rain, runoff water is kept away from the foundation is the way to go. Option 2: Trench exterior of foundation to below freeze line (3+ ft on the Cape), reparge (waterproof) exterior of block and insulate w/ 2" rigid foam on the exterior. (See greenbuilding digest for pros & cons on various foam boards, ants, etc.). You also might want to use a drainage material like MiraDrain, Delta-MS, etc.. Stucco or otherwise protect foam above grade, backfill, regrade and run leaders well away from foundation. I also suggest that unless you are convinced of the problem (condensation, bulk water, etc.) and its solution you call a building performance analyst to test and examine your house as a whole system. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel.516/477-2922 fax.516/345-3169 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 29 11:03:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13242 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:03:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11057; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:59:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:55:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10719 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:55:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10714 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:55:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-29-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.29]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA29391 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:56:04 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19981229105548.007bd810@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 10:55:48 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re:Atrium glazing and Roxul In-Reply-To: <199812280700.CAA06728@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5432 >I am getting ready to build an off the grid house in the mountains of = >Colorado. The site has fantastic southern exposure and the plans = >include a large atrium. I am trying to find an insulated product for = >the atrium. Something that has a good R rating and is easy to work = >with. We will have several custom windows that will need to be cut. = >(nothing fancy, just some triangles). Any suggestions. > >Thank you for you input >Lora Lora -- I assume you are looking for plastic from your comments. Polygal makes several triple layer polycarbonate materials that have a thin outer acrylic layer for better life (slows UV degradation). Their number is 608-757-1313. In my experience, you can count on 10 good years from any reasonably well UV-protected plastic -- you might get more (maybe less at high elevations due to more UV?) but I generally use the 10-year number, which corresponds to several plastics' warranties... Then polycarbonate begins to yellow and get more brittle. If good looks aren't all that important, I suppose you could live with this for some time. I don't know which is the better answer in the big picture -- glass or plastic. Sealed glass units with all the great properties that are available also usually carry only 10 year warranties on seals and glass sealers don't like, in my expreience, to talk about re-sealing failed units. On the slope, I get shorter warranties from some glass sealing companies. Glass atria also require much more substantial (stable) framing and therefore more resources into the frame. There was a question on Roxul availability a couple of weeks ago: Roxul rep in US: Kevin MacKinnon 800-769-8587. He was happy to quote a large project last time I checked. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 29 12:28:33 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14383 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:28:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15647; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:24:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:19:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15117 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:19:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15110 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:19:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-0-43.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.0.43]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA13384; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:19:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <368910CC.F6F8829F@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 12:26:36 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GrenSheltr@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: insulating a damp basement References: <570ab9df.3688d852@aol.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------A3D41CBBDF13F203E1DF23D2" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5433 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------A3D41CBBDF13F203E1DF23D2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Question about waterproofing. Is external above ground slope and gutter water usually really the main 'water' problem. My understanding is that it is generally much more related to large area water flows moving against the building (i.e. drain flow and superficial slope are not material) and that the solution is generally protecting the entire foundation (i.e the expensive digging up an waterproofing idea). Any opinions? I've also heard that the internal waterproofing methods are really scary and usually cause all kinds of hidden vapour damage to the outer strucutre (dew point stuff moisture trapped between internal protection and foundation, etc.) Finally is it necessary to stop the basement from leaking? In a lot of old homes basement were built for feul (coal) storage and can easily handle being wet. And it sounds like his basement is not one that is going to be used for sleeping or other such uses so why not just let it be damp and insulate the floor above the pipes to prevent the dampness and heat loss from going into the first floor. N GrenSheltr@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 98-12-28 22:03:19 EST, mrbh@capecod.net writes: > > << Someone suggested screwing wood strips into the walls, > and mounting foam insulation panels on that. If the cellar leaks, water > could then run behind the foam panels and down to the floor. >> > > seems to me you first have to discover WHY the basement is leaking -- check > outside for drainage away from the house, where do the downspouts go ?? are > they properly attached, do they have leaders going far enough away from the > house ?? are the gutters cleaned out ---- does the ground slope toward the > house, if so, can you regrade to swale away ?? > > before even thinking about any inside insulation, you need to figure out where > the water is coming from --- if cannot fix from outside, there are numerous > and sundry inside fixes (and lots of scoundrels out there trying to sell them > ) but some good systems, generally NOT cheap Linda Lloyd > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" --------------A3D41CBBDF13F203E1DF23D2 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="nspiegel.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Neil Spiegel Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="nspiegel.vcf" begin:vcard n:Spiegel;Neil x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;;Toronto;Ontario;M5R 3E9;Canada version:2.1 email;internet:nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca title:Outsourcing Technical Project Manager tel;fax:416-534-7888 tel;work:416-534-9792 note:I suggest the purple, I think it looks wonderful on you. Oh no, no, no, I should say I prefer the yellow. x-mozilla-cpt:;65535 fn:Neil Spiegel end:vcard --------------A3D41CBBDF13F203E1DF23D2-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 29 20:06:46 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA20338 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 20:06:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA07800; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 20:03:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:59:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA07486 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:58:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07480 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:58:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-156.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.156]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:41:11 -0500 Message-ID: <3689A589.51A6@cyberzone.net> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 20:01:14 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Smith CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Permanence References: <199812291022.FAA20643@server.totalnetnh.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5434 > In response to Wade Eides message I would like to mention a couple of my > personal hot button issues which he touched upon. > > Land use: Are one to five acre lots for single family housing in any way > sustainable? I sure think not. While this list is focused on building > rather that land use planning issues I would hope that we would all > remember that every building we put up extends our > > Bill Smith > Concord, NH > williammsmith@usa.net Bill, Apparently we lost part of your message - please resend the end of it! Building lot sizes are an issue near and dear to my heart. I served for several years on the Canterbury, CT (population 4500) planning & zoning commission and worked on the latest plan of development and zoning regs. We incorporated open space subdivision regulations as an option. This is where, in any given parcel, the developer can increase the density of a portion of the area, with the balance retained as open space. After much spirited and rancorous debate, it was included as a requirement for the scenic highway portion of town, but only as an option for the remaining 95% (translation: it'll never happen). In the land of steady habits, we have 2 acre zoning, and the common wisdom is that larger lot sizes will preserve the bucolic rural atmosphere of our fair town. Smaller lot sizes smack of "affordable" housing, and goodness knows what would happen if we allowed "those" kind of people in town. In 20 years, they'll be crying about the loss of the bucolic rural atmosphere. New Jersey, on the other hand, has some very advanced development regs and just passed a statewide referendum allocating real money for purchasing development rights. So the bottom line is that no one really cares until the threat becomes real and directly affects one's daily affairs. For now, in my neighborhood anyway, you're considered a crackpot, and will be told as much, for suggesting anything other than the status quo. However, there is lots of literature, a la Stein's book "Noah's Garden", that offer a wealth of ideas for reclaiming the suburban environment. There's still lots of hope... I'll get off the soapbox now... Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 29 21:03:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA20852 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:03:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09883; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:00:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Dec 1998 20:56:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA09533 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 20:56:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA09524 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 20:56:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip420.efn.org [206.163.181.164]) by clavin.efn.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA15802 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 17:56:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: Subject: GBlist: energy and bathtub mass Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 16:45:38 -0800 Message-ID: <01be338d$b8221800$b0b5a3ce@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_016E_01BE334A.A9FED800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5435 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_016E_01BE334A.A9FED800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Folks, I find cast iron bathtubs rather attractive. They're very solid and . = . . timeless. Of course, with their considerable embodied energy, I = wouldn't want to buy one new, but I do see them around used - some with = the enamel in remarkably good condition. My question is this: If people can be expected to bath (as opposed to shower) in them fairly = often, will the added hot water needed to compensate for their mass add = up to a lot of energy use over time. I intend for my next project to be = on solar hot water which will improve the picture somewhat, but perhaps = from this POV it would make sense to buy a new steel tub (75 Lbs) rather = than a used cast iron tub (350 Lbs). I can just feel the minds of the energy/engineering math geeks churning = right now as I push the send button. Thanks, Rob ------=_NextPart_000_016E_01BE334A.A9FED800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Folks,
 
I find cast iron bathtubs rather = attractive. =20 They're very solid and  . . . timeless.  Of course, with their = considerable embodied energy, I wouldn't want to buy one new, but I do = see them=20 around used - some with the enamel in remarkably good = condition.
 
My question is this:
If people can be expected to bath (as opposed = to=20 shower) in them fairly often, will the added hot water needed to = compensate for=20 their mass add up to a lot of energy use over time.  I intend for = my next=20 project to be on solar hot water which will improve the picture = somewhat, but=20 perhaps from this POV it would make sense to buy a new steel tub (75 = Lbs) rather=20 than a used cast iron tub (350 Lbs).
 
I can just feel the minds of the = energy/engineering=20 math geeks churning right now as I push the send button.
Thanks, 
Rob
------=_NextPart_000_016E_01BE334A.A9FED800-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 29 21:19:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA21031 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:19:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA10648; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:11:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA10205 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:11:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA10196 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:11:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-13-150.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.130.150]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA09808; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:11:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:13:34 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE3370.181781A0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Bruce Hammond/Megan Ryan'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: insulating a damp basement Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:13:19 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5436 On Monday, December 28, 1998 10:06 PM, Bruce Hammond/Megan Ryan [SMTP:mrbh@capecod.net] wrote: > I recently bought a house with a cinder block basement that gets damp in > the summer. It gets damp in the summer implies to me that hot humid outdoor air is moving into the basement and cooling to earht temperature, thereby condensing on the walls. If this is the moisture source, not ground water, then insulating the walls and preventing air leakage fro the outdoors are the methods to control the moisture. If ground water is the source, you need to seal as many holes as you can and then provide a safe draiange path for the inevitable leakage. > The question is, what is the > best way to insulate the basement? ...... > Someone suggested screwing wood strips into the walls, > and mounting foam insulation panels on that. If the cellar leaks, water > could then run behind the foam panels and down to the floor. This is the best method, but you do not need the wood strips on the walls -- they will rot in contact with wet walls. If you want really nice space, parge the interior of the cinder block (add glass fibres for a really good job) then prop foam panels to the walls, screw tapcons or similiar through 1x2 strapping, the foam, and into the block. Seal the joints in the foam with tape or caulking. Now you can add drywall to the wood strapping after you are failry sure that the basement walls are not leaking. Also seal all windows and openings (like rim joists!) against air leakage. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 29 21:19:04 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA21030 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:19:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA10646; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:15:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:11:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA10194 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:11:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA10190 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-13-150.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.130.150]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA09789; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:11:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:13:30 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE3370.156755C0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Geres'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: bioclimatism software Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 11:05:41 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5437 On Tuesday, December 29, 1998 10:03 AM, Geres [SMTP:geres@worldnet.fr] wrote: > We are working on a onion storage building in Africa so we are looking for a simple computer program which can modelise sunshine radiation, moisture and ventillation in 2 zones building. > We are looking for software to modelise greenhouse in cold dry climate. Enermodal Engineering (www.enermodal.com I think) have a program called Enerpass that I find useful, although it is DOS based. They have new version designed expressely for greenhouses which is windows based. This version is very carefully designed to account for all sorts of odd things that occur in greenhouses. E-mail them and let them fill you in on the details ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Dec 29 22:05:58 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA21487 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 22:05:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12217; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 22:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:58:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA11879 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:58:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from .www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11874 for ; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 21:58:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip29.ivnet.net [206.101.73.189]) by .www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00910; Tue, 29 Dec 1998 18:47:25 -0800 Message-ID: <368995D9.3423EDCC@ivnet.net> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 18:54:17 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Shapiro CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:Atrium glazing and Roxul References: <3.0.6.32.19981229105548.007bd810@pop.together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5438 Sealed glass units with all the great properties that are > available also usually carry only 10 year warranties on seals and glass > sealers don't like, in my expreience, to talk about re-sealing failed > units. On the slope, I get shorter warranties from some glass sealing > companies. Glass atria also require much more substantial (stable) framing > and therefore more resources into the frame. > >The real trick with sealed glass units is to support all the edges of the glass. If gravity tries to slide one pane past the other, the gooey sealing material will eventually let go. I like to rout in a channel and line it with a small Z-metal. That gives me a place for glazing tape and adhesive caulking to adhere to. Then I cover that joint with more metal. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 30 05:51:54 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA24793 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 05:51:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA27831; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 05:48:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 30 Dec 1998 05:44:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA27592 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 05:43:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA27588 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 05:43:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-165.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.165]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 05:26:15 -0500 Message-ID: <368A2E9D.4C5@cyberzone.net> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 05:46:05 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Beverly A. Weiter" CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: experience References: <19981210.112216.9526.3.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5439 Happy New Year, GBListers! This is really old and I'm remiss in keeping up with the thread, but I need to comment on the issue of experience. >Beverly wrote: > While we are on the subject, I also think architects should have to spend some time working with interior designers. That way they would find how frustrating it can be to try to furnish rooms chopped up with doors and windows, rooms with odd angle kitchens designed by architects who never cooked more than a pizza, and many other unwieldy designs that look good but don't function. > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > Boca Raton, FL > _________________ As an architect, I'll be the first to admit that there are times when you can't tell them anything. On the other hand, our office has interior designers and construction managers, and we all seem to collaborate quite well on our projects. Working with other disciplines is great for becoming better at your own craft, and we continually learn from each other. Taking a dig at interior designers, though, my experience is that it's a rare one who has a clear understanding of such concepts as units of egress width, common path of travel, occupancy loads, and fire ratings and separations, concepts that can quickly undo the finest of interior designs. Your point about architects is very well taken and comes up often enough, but we all have our war stories to tell! As others have discussed, the best approach is to roll up your sleeves, get into the trenches together, and see your work from the other's perspective (actually that's a pretty good motto for living in general!). Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 30 08:40:06 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA25864 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:40:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02112; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:35:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:31:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01780 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:31:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01776 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:31:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (chtw07-4.pei.sympatico.ca [207.34.31.52]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA18790; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:31:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <368A2AFE.7C6F@pei.sympatico.ca> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 09:30:38 -0400 From: Phil Ferraro Reply-To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Permanence References: <199812291022.FAA20643@server.totalnetnh.net> <3689A589.51A6@cyberzone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5440 Dan and Pam wrote: In the > land of steady habits, we have 2 acre zoning, and the common wisdom is > that larger lot sizes will preserve the bucolic rural atmosphere of our > fair town. Are you folks familiar with the Rural Landscape Planning concepts in which New Urbanists also take many of their idea? Basically the idea is to create high density housing clustered together so that there are many "green"/open spaces for agriculture, wildlife and recreation. This allows builders and planners to create villages/towns. 2 acre zoning is the fastest way to destroy a rural atmosphere because you wind up with strip developement, malls that everyone has to drive to and the total destruction of wildlife corridors and farmland. Two references that I highly recommend are: Dealing with Change in the Connecticut River Valley: A Design Manual for Conservation and Development, by the Massachusetts Department of Environmental Management Cnetre for Rural Mass.; Published by the Lincoln Inst. of Land Policy and A Pattern Language:Towns, Buildings, Construction, by Christopher Alexander et al; Oxford University Press. Smaller lot sizes smack of "affordable" housing, and > goodness knows what would happen if we allowed "those" kind of people in > town. In 20 years, they'll be crying about the loss of the bucolic rural > atmosphere. New Jersey, on the other hand, has some very advanced > development regs and just passed a statewide referendum allocating real > money for purchasing development rights. So the bottom line is that no > one really cares until the threat becomes real and directly affects > one's daily affairs. For now, in my neighborhood anyway, you're > considered a crackpot, and will be told as much, for suggesting anything > other than the status quo. However, there is lots of literature, a la > Stein's book "Noah's Garden", that offer a wealth of ideas for > reclaiming the suburban environment. There's still lots of hope... > I'll get off the soapbox now... > > Dan Harazim -- Phil Ferraro, Executive Director, P.E.I. ADAPT Council c/o The Farm Centre, 420 University Avenue, Room 103 Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island Canada C1A 7Z5 Phone: (902) 368-2005 Fax: (902) 368-2520 (phone first) Email: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 30 10:50:08 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27398 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:50:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06335; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:46:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:42:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05961 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:42:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05957 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:42:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id DXQR4MK5; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:42:27 EST To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 10:46:59 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: experience Message-ID: <19981230.104806.11494.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <19981210.112216.9526.3.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> <368A2E9D.4C5@cyberzone.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,7-8,12-13,15,17-21 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5441 Dan, No offense taken and you are right - there is no substitute for experience. While I admit, as a designer, I may not know all there is to know about some things involved with architectural design, I personally worked in a small architectural office where I often pitched in to help out the architects. I learned to do small landscape plans, draw a number of architectural features and more. As far as your comment on means of egress etc - a lot of that is covered in the ADA study guide, which here in Florida, as a licensure state, we were required to learn. Perhaps that is the problem in that most states are not requiring professional licensing for designers. Like any profession there are good and bad aspects and good and bad practitioners. Maybe we should require one year of apprenticeship on a jobsite as part of the part of the internship for both architects and designers. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 30 11:53:09 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA28451 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:53:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10381; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:44:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10030 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:44:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10025 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:44:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.180] (pm4a5.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.5]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA14217; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:45:28 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) [207.136.199.180] from pm4a5.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.5] 207.136.199.5 Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:45:28 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: nmalin@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:52:05 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: solar latrines (forwarded query) Cc: ersjns@hotmail.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5442 Hi folks, This query came from someone who may not have access to the list, so I'm forwarding it for him. If you can help, please send guidance them via the e-mail addresses listed at the end. thanks! Nadav Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:16:52 -0400 From: pcruz@cylcom.com (Cylcom Pedro Cruz Echeverria) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Info. request from Peace Corps, Bolivia Any response would be extremely appreciated. My name is Ethan Stapp, and I am a Peace Corps volunteer in Bolivia. My site is in the lowland rainforest region of the east part of the country. I want to start a pilot project in my community using solar latrines. The tradional technology is the pit latrine, but these are inadequate for the area, and are causing health problems to the community in all age groups present. The area floods on a regular basis, washing out their latrines and transporting the effluent to surface water which serves as the drinking water fro the people of the area. I have come across liturature on solar latrines, in which the waste is "baked" in something like a solar oven, reduced to ash and thus inocculated, making it harmless. I understand the theory behind the device, I just need a blueprint and materials list for the damn thing and instructions how to build and maintain it. Any assistence would be greatly appreciated by Peace Corps. Info. can be sent me at ersjns@hotmail.com, or my Project Director, Tim McFarren at tmcfarren@peacecorps.bo.pc.gov Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 30 13:42:39 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00147 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:42:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17591; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:38:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:34:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17204 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:34:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from srunet.sru.edu (srunet.sru.edu [192.148.234.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17200 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:34:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from phoenix.sru.edu ([205.149.64.44] helo=rockmail.sru.edu) by srunet.sru.edu with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for greenbuilding@crest.org id 0zvRSg-0000mj-00; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 14:39:18 -0500 Received: from oemcomputer ([208.231.49.36]) by rockmail.sru.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with SMTP id AAA5093 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:35:09 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19981230183251.006697f4@rockmail.sru.edu> X-Sender: jdt4006@rockmail.sru.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:32:51 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Jeremy Truog Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Permanence Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5443 > >Two references that I highly recommend are: >Dealing with Change in the Connecticut River Valley: A Design Manual for >Conservation and Development, by the Massachusetts Department of >Environmental Management Cnetre for Rural Mass.; Published by the >Lincoln Inst. of Land Policy >and >A Pattern Language:Towns, Buildings, Construction, by Christopher >Alexander et al; Oxford University Press. Hi all, I'd also like to recommend: Conservation Design for Subdivisions by Randall Arendt Its a very good book. One comment on two acre zoning (coming from an urban planner's perspective)...you have to be careful with this about the issue of discriminatory zoning. That requiring lot sizes of this size doesn't allow lower-income housing opportunities. Although, you may be trying to keep this type of development out, this type of zoning has been overturned by courts (I can try to find some specific examples if you would like). Just some thoughts, Jeremy Truog ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 30 13:46:34 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00216 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:46:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17921; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:41:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:38:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17523 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:37:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17519 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:37:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-12-MAX-BTVT-06.ramp.together.net [208.13.204.12]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA06602; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:38:23 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19981230133805.007cd100@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:38:05 -0500 To: Bruce From: Andy Shapiro Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:Atrium glazing Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <368995D9.3423EDCC@ivnet.net> References: <3.0.6.32.19981229105548.007bd810@pop.together.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5444 Bruce -- Thanks for your reply. Yes, supporting all lites of double or triple glass units is critical -- I have installed a number of sloped glazing systems with a variety of approaches to this problem. You can find some additional details in my book "The Homeowners Compete guide to Add-on Solar Greenhouses and Sunspaces," Rodale Press, 1985, if you can find a copy -- it's out of print. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT USA At 06:54 PM 12/29/98 -0800, you wrote: >Sealed glass units with all the great properties that are >> available also usually carry only 10 year warranties on seals and glass >> sealers don't like, in my expreience, to talk about re-sealing failed >> units. On the slope, I get shorter warranties from some glass sealing >> companies. Glass atria also require much more substantial (stable) framing >> and therefore more resources into the frame. >> >>The real trick with sealed glass units is to support all the edges of the glass. If gravity tries to slide one pane past the other, the gooey sealing material will eventually let go. I like to rout in a channel and line it with a small Z-metal. That gives me a place for glazing tape and adhesive caulking to adhere to. Then I cover that joint with more metal. >Bruce Donelson >A Better Builder >Takilma Oregon > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Dec 30 21:41:13 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06581 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:41:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA10969; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:37:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:33:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA10435 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:32:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA10431; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:32:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.163.180.157 (dynip157.efn.org [206.163.180.157]) by clavin.efn.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA08784; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:33:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <368AE306.178A@epud.org> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:35:51 -0800 From: Dean Still Reply-To: dstill@epud.org X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: strawbale@crest.org CC: stove@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Masonry Wood Stoves Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5445 Masonry Wood Stoves (Some Basic Functions) by Dean Still Aprovecho Research Center apro@efn.org A few people on the CREST lists have recently suggested that adding mass near an ordinary wood stove might accomplish some beneficial heat storage, mimicking the function of a real masonry high mass heating stove. In an effort to elucidate the functioning of a masonry stove, Dr. Larry Winiarski, and I worked up a few “guesstimates” that we believe are more or less close to describing what’s happening in this type of stove. We introduce our guesses to hopefully shed light on the parameters we see as important in design adaptations. 1.) It is pretty darn hard to get a large percentage of heat into a substance like air, water, rock, cement. A pot set directly over a flame only absorbs about 10% to 20% of the total btu’s in the flame. The rest shoots uselessly past the pot. To optimize heat absorption, flame and hot flue gases must be forced to contact the surface of the mass, to rub against it. (Also, for optimal heat transfer there has to be a big difference in temperatures, good conductivity, etc.) Heat in a six inch flue pipe mostly shoots up the middle of the pipe, not much heat is transferred to the wall of the pipe. It’s better to make a different shape of chimney pipe: a shallow, rectangular, one inch high passageway with the same cross sectional area is much more efficient. Heat in a narrow, tight passageway is forced to rub against the walls of the mass and a higher percentage of the heat is absorbed. 2.) Here is our guess about how much surface area in an optimized air to mass heat exchanger is needed to accomplish heat transfer: Ten square feet of optimized surface area, in which flame or very hot flue gas is made to rub against mass, will lower temperatures about 200 degrees F. Temperatures in the combustion chamber are about 2,300 degrees F. We want exit temperatures, out of the chimney, to be around 200 degrees F. So, in an optimized situation, at least 100 square feet of exposed surface area is necessary to absorb the optimal amount of heat into the mass. As a guess, we better figure that three to four times of non optimized surface area, such as a round chimney pipe covered with mass, will be needed to accomplish the same goal. 3.) It so happens that, in our experience, an optimized air to air heat exchanger needs roughly the same amount of surface area (10sf) to reduce temperatures by 200 degrees F. 4.) To summarize: an efficient heat exchange requires a lot of surface area in even an optimized design! Piling mass near a stove can result in very poor heat transfer. It will probably store only a small percentage of the released heat because the heat from the stove is relatively cool and there isn’t sufficient “rubbing”. 5.) Stone or cement, or steel etc. all store approximately .2 btu’s per degree of temperature rise(F.). A normal house will require something like 20,000 btu’s per hour to keep it warm on a not too cold winter day. 1,000 pounds of such mass, if warmed up to 200 degrees F, stores 40,000 btu’s, which is enough to keep the house warm for two hours. 10,000 pounds of mass, driven up to the same temperature, warms the house for ten hours. 6.) Larry figures that you need something like 125sf or more of 200 degree mass exposed to room air to transfer the 200,000 btu’s in ten hours. 7. A high mass masonry stove does two great things as well as all of the preceding: 8.) wood is burned quickly, at high temperatures, reducing smoke( without overheating the room) and 9.) the chimney and air feeding the fire are tightly closed off as soon as the fire dies so that warm room air doesn’t escape up the chimney encouraging increased cold air exchange into the room. 10.) All of the points raised here are met in a good masonry stove and, together, the design characteristics combine to create a stove that functions efficiently. It’s pretty hard to pull any part of this design into use without dragging the whole time honored concept along with the component part. It’s easy to overlook how hard it is to get heat into mass. It’s also easy to hope that a small amount of mass will store an appreciable amount of heat. But delving into the function of the masonry stove gives one a real appreciation for a tool that, in its combination of features, seems captivating, beautiful. Larry and I have a much deeper respect for this type of stove after our contemplation of it. 11.) (Postscript.) Air to air heating stoves can be both as clean burning and as fuel efficient as these air to mass stoves. The main design problem is to create a very hot fire using a smaller amount of wood and to make sure that the heat stays in the room without shooting out of the chimney! Many air to air type heating stoves, if fed properly, can accomplish clean burning and efficient heat transfer to the room without resorting to bulky and expensive heat storage in mass. An air to air heat exchanger can reduce exit temperatures just like an air to mass model. The substantive difference is that a high mass masonry stove encourages big, hot burns.The masonry heat storage should also be preferable in drafty houses, where heating the air is defeated by many hourly air exchanges. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 31 01:31:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA08889 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 01:31:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA19972; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 01:27:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 31 Dec 1998 01:21:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA19508 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 01:21:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com ([209.210.78.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA19503 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 01:21:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from nistone (usr13.cwo.com [207.173.11.13]) by mail.cwo.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA25039 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:23:48 -0800 Message-ID: <00d201be3485$e19537a0$1d0badcf@nistone> Reply-To: "Nehemiah I. Stone" From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: modified bitumen earth friendly Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 21:51:38 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5446 In regards to the following excerpt: "Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 09:11:11 -0800 From: recorder2 Subject: GBlist: Modified Bitumen I am looking for a surfacing material for the (flat) roof of the sun room (16' x 64') I am building to be used as an observation deck and to sleep out at night which is tough and completely waterproof. I just read about modified bitumen which, though expensive, would seem to do the job. However, how environmentally friendly is this stuff??!! Are there other materials which folks could suggest for this roof? I am also looking for folks to help me build this sun room which will include earthen floors, a small lap pool, large PV system, and solar hot water heating system. Since I am now partially handicapped, I can no longer do this work myself. (Pool meets essential therapeutic needs.) Thanks, Jim Phypers Tucson, Arizona" The latest issue of the Environmental Building News did and EXCELLENT feature on the relative environmental "goodness" of various roofing products for low slope roofs. You couldn't get a more complete answer to your question. Nehemiah ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 31 01:31:42 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA08890 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 01:31:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA19970; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 01:27:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 31 Dec 1998 01:22:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA19518 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 01:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com ([209.210.78.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA19514 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 01:21:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from nistone (usr13.cwo.com [207.173.11.13]) by mail.cwo.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA25043 for ; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:23:49 -0800 Message-ID: <00d301be3485$e27892c0$1d0badcf@nistone> Reply-To: "Nehemiah I. Stone" From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: - Grid connected elect. price Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:21:58 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5447 In response to the Dancin' Man's question about the environmentally correct approach to electrifying his home, John Wilson said, "There are plenty of issues and areas for contribution to the "green" cause. I for one, would use the grid at 5 cents a kw hr. PV is very expensive and difficult in the Winter in your area. I am mostly PV where I live in Nogal, NM. where grid electric is 13 cents a kw hr. and there is more sun hours than just about anywhere in the US. That's one opinion." If we are to focus so much on the cost of the commodity, then we should think of it in terms of what it will be, not what it is. As the grid gets more commerciallized (think restructuring), and less of a regulated monopoly, then that commodity will be shipped around more. Those of us paying 9.5 to 13 cents for our kilowatts will start to get "a better deal." We will buy your cheaper kilowatts. Guess what that means to you. Your local electricity will be more in demand; ergo the price will go up. Not enough to make it uneconomical for California elctricity suppliers to quit buying it, but certainly enough that you best not count on "cheap" electricity being there for long. Competition coming to the electricity world will do what competition coming to any market does: (a) drive down the high prices, (b) boost up the low prices, (c) drive out the inefficient marketers, (d) temporarily focus mostly on price, (e) eventually mature to the point where value is the factor of competition (e.g., services to the customer, 'green' generation sources) Bottom line - don't lock yourself into an (expensive) energy option on the notion that today's electricity company rates have any bearing on tomorrow's electricity commodity prices. Nehemiah Stone ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 31 05:47:05 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA10147 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:47:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA25611; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:42:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:37:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA25197 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:37:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA25192 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:37:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-169.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.169]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:19:29 -0500 Message-ID: <368B7EF6.6AB@cyberzone.net> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:41:10 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Permanence/land use References: <199812291022.FAA20643@server.totalnetnh.net> <3689A589.51A6@cyberzone.net> <368A2AFE.7C6F@pei.sympatico.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5448 > Phil Ferraro wrote: > Two references that I highly recommend are: > Dealing with Change in the Connecticut River Valley: A Design Manual for > Conservation and Development, by the Massachusetts Department of > Environmental Management Cnetre for Rural Mass.; Published by the > Lincoln Inst. of Land Policy > and > A Pattern Language:Towns, Buildings, Construction, by Christopher > Alexander et al; Oxford University Press. Phil, Yes, I know those books. My copy of Pattern Language turns 20 next year! Also, the co-author of Dealing with Change... is Randall Arendt, who also has written "Rural By Design" and "Designing Open Space Subdivisions". Both are excellent resourses and have gorgeous color renderings of before-and-after development scenarios describing conventional and alternative development. Another book is "Visions for a New American Dream", by Anton Nelessen, which describes his work in New Jersey and elsewhere. This one has all sorts of design criteria for creating villages, hamlets, small towns, etc. All are available from The American Planning Association. > > 2 acre zoning is > the fastest way to destroy a rural atmosphere because you wind up with > strip developement, malls that everyone has to drive to and the total > destruction of wildlife corridors and farmland. Unfortunately, 2 acre zoning (in my neck of the woods) is what the general population wants, and they want strip malls, and they want plenty of parking right next to the building so they don't have to walk anywhere. The owners demand the parking in front of the building instead of the side or back, so people can see it, and don't want to listen to the argument that 99% of the people already know the building and where the parking is! My experience with planning on the local level to date is that people have very closely held beliefs about what will best preserve their "way of life", and will not listen to debate about why those beliefs in fact will destroy their way of life. Quite a conundrum... I'm moving out of my little town to be closer to my work, so I'll think about resuming the battle in another town another day! Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 31 05:50:29 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA10158 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA25849; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:46:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:41:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA25468 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:41:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from server.totalnetnh.net (server.totalnetnh.net [216.64.14.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA25459 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:41:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [216.64.14.32] (s2.terminal1.totalnetnh.net [216.64.14.32]) by server.totalnetnh.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA25883 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:39:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199812311039.FAA25883@server.totalnetnh.net> Subject: GBlist: Re:(Temporary Insanity) Permanence Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 05:42:36 -0500 x-sender: wsmith@server.totalnetnh.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bill Smith To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5449 The truly wonderful thing about having access to modern, powerful computers, word processing, spell checking AND the Internet is the ability to compose and edit a thoughtful piece to share with your colleagues. Then, with just a few easy to learn keystrokes, you can trash that piece and send to the world the false start that was headed towards a rant. Please contact me off list if you need lessons. I did in fact trash all that I had written so let me just hit a couple of points today. On the subject of land use. The point I wanted to make here is that the zoning laws that I am familiar with here in New England are counterproductive in at least couple of ways. First, according to some wildlife management people I've talked with the one to five acre lot size seems to maximize the habitat disturbance per person for a good many of our native species. Wildlife is important to me although most people seem to want to be as disconnected from it as possible. The other major land use question for me is who wrote these laws? The automobile manufacturers? The low density of our current subdivisions seems to make living without access to an auto, or at least good public transportation, impractical. So we are not only devoting a large amount of land to each dwelling, we need to pave a large amount of land for the roads to service them. So I see sprawl as a real "multiplier" of problems. Of course over density can lead to sociological and psychological problems and that could lead to population control issues and that's way off topic. The other issue that come to my mind from Wade Eides original post is maintenance and our current seeming abhorrence of it. While I agree that materials should be selected for their longevity I would like to make the point that longevity and maintenance free are not synonymous. I'm sure that most of the people on this list realize this, but I think we should be including this as one of the things we educate our customers about. My reasoning for this is that regularly performing maintenance gives a reason for regular inspection. A building ignored because it is "maintenance free" is probably going to have a short life. Well, not quite as thorough on these topics as I had hoped to be, but if any body is interested we can continue... Bill Smith williammsmith@usa.net Concord NH USA Typo's, misspellings and punctuation errors by the cat in my lap ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 31 10:28:25 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12199 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:28:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04251; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:24:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:18:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03782 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:18:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03778 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:18:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on7-26.netcom.ca [207.181.91.218]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06247; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:18:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981231094745.00aaca80@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:15:57 -0400 To: dstill@epud.org From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Masonry Wood Stoves Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <368AE306.178A@epud.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5450 At 06:35 PM 30/12/98 -0800, Dean Still wrote: (snip) >So, in an optimized situation, at least 100 square feet of exposed >surface area is necessary to absorb the optimal amount of heat into the >mass. As a guess, we better figure that three to four times of non >optimized surface area, such as a round chimney pipe covered with mass, >will be needed to accomplish the same goal. > >3.) It so happens that, in our experience, an optimized air to air heat >exchanger needs roughly the same amount of surface area (10sf) to reduce >temperatures by 200 degrees F. Some comments on the amount of heat exchange area needed: The main parameter affecting heat exchange is delta T, so that just past the firebox, where temps are around 1500F or so, there is a lot of exchange, mainly by radiation, and you hardly need anything to drop temps by 200 degrees. About 50% of the heat exchange happens in the firebox itself, and the trend in masonry heaters over the last 100 years has been to shorter flue runs. A typical large contraflow heater, for example, has two 4" X 24" X 72" parallel downdrafting heat exchangers, or about 50 sq. ft. There's about a 25% bonus effect from downdrafting instead of updrafting. Overall efficiency is in the 70% range, which is pretty close to the theoretical maximum of 80% (to get any more, you'd have to go to a condensing flue and mechanically powered draft). In other words, adding more heat exchange would not result in any efficiency gains. For more detailed technical info., you can check out "Short Course on Masonry Heating Systems", located at the Learning Centre in the Masonry Heater Mall: http://mha-net.org/html/mall.htm Best.............Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 31 10:52:48 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12418 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:52:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05488; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:48:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:43:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05119 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:43:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05115 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:43:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([142.176.72.125]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA02429; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:44:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <368B9BFA.3D7B@pei.sympatico.ca> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:44:58 -0400 From: Phil Ferraro Reply-To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Permanence/land use References: <199812291022.FAA20643@server.totalnetnh.net> <3689A589.51A6@cyberzone.net> <368A2AFE.7C6F@pei.sympatico.ca> <368B7EF6.6AB@cyberzone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5451 Dan and Pam wrote: > > > Phil Ferraro wrote: > > Two references that I highly recommend are: > > Dealing with Change in the Connecticut River Valley: A Design Manual for > > Conservation and Development, by the Massachusetts Department of > > Environmental Management Cnetre for Rural Mass.; Published by the > > Lincoln Inst. of Land Policy > > and > > A Pattern Language:Towns, Buildings, Construction, by Christopher > > Alexander et al; Oxford University Press. > > Phil, > Yes, I know those books. My copy of Pattern Language turns 20 next > year! Also, the co-author of Dealing with Change... is Randall Arendt, > who also has written "Rural By Design" and "Designing Open Space > Subdivisions". Another excellent reference is: Rebuilding Community in America by Ken Norwood; Shared Living Resource Center, 2375 Shattuck Avenue Berkely California 94704 (510) 548-6608 > > Unfortunately, 2 acre zoning (in my neck of the woods) is what the > general population wants, and they want strip malls, and they want > plenty of parking right next to the building so they don't have to walk > anywhere. The owners demand the parking in front of the building > instead of the side or back, so people can see it, and don't want to > listen to the argument that 99% of the people already know the building > and where the parking is! My experience with planning on the local > level to date is that people have very closely held beliefs about what > will best preserve their "way of life", and will not listen to debate > about why those beliefs in fact will destroy their way of life. I don't buy this argument. I think people are used to 2 acre subdivions because this is the standard that is offered. However, people love "New England" towns and university campuses where pedestrian traffic prevails. Many European cities are now banning cars in favour of pedestrian streets. -- Phil Ferraro, Executive Director, P.E.I. ADAPT Council c/o The Farm Centre, 420 University Avenue, Room 103 Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island Canada C1A 7Z5 Phone: (902) 368-2005 Fax: (902) 368-2520 (phone first) Email: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 31 11:40:27 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14354 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:40:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08031; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:29:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07310 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:29:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07303; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:29:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-02-80.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.128.80]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA17459; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 11:32:00 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE34B1.2E1C1280.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'dstill@epud.org'" , "strawbale@crest.org" Cc: "stove@crest.org" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: RE: Masonry Wood Stoves Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 22:46:25 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5452 On Wednesday, December 30, 1998 9:36 PM, Dean Still [SMTP:dstill@epud.org] wrote: > 5.) Stone or cement, or steel etc. all store approximately .2 btu's per > degree of temperature rise(F.). A normal house will require something > like 20,000 btu's per hour to keep it warm on a not too cold winter day. > 1,000 pounds of such mass, if warmed up to 200 degrees F, stores 40,000 > btu's, which is enough to keep the house warm for two hours. 10,000 > pounds of mass, driven up to the same temperature, warms the house for > ten hours. Nice discussion Dean. It may seem that 10 000 pounds of mass takes a lot. Note that 200 sf of 4" thick brickwork has a mass of 8000 pounds, and the more realistic 400 sf of 4" brick would weigh 16 000 pds. The latter figure is of the order of many traditional brick fireplaces, although the Tempcast pre-fab masonry heater weighs in at only 2800 pds with all attachments. People typically add 8000 to as much as 20000 pds of mass in the form of veneer facings to the Temp-cast though, although they rarely heat the veneer more than 100 F. Robert Bolman suggested surrounding a metal chimney with a 2 storey-high three-sided surround. Why not use a brick chimney -- a 16" sqaure brick chimney with a 8" sqaure flue will have about 2500 pds of mass on the inside of the house. This is already enough to moderate many variations in temperature and allow the stove to burn hot. But, a straight vertical flow will not recover much heat. So, some form of down flow and lengthened smoke channel (as in a masonry stove) makes a lot of sense. >From limited personal experience I would also like to see some mass or a barrier placed between a metal stove and the room to dampen out the intense heat output that a light metal stove creates when burned hot. Such a barrier, of adobe, brick, stone, concrete, etc would also increase the convective heat transfer mechanism. Note that this is something like Figure 187 on page 177 of Lyles "Book of Masonry Stoves" and /fig 161 on pg 131. These figures only lack a reburn chamber for exhaust gases: as must in my mind. (these may be hidden in the fireboxes) ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 31 12:48:18 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15295 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:48:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11079; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:44:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:39:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA10553 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:38:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from garnet.sover.net (garnet.sover.net [209.198.87.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10546 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:38:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.11] (pm3a12.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.236]) by garnet.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA09744 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:39:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:39:33 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) [207.136.199.11] from pm3a12.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.236] 207.136.199.236 Thu, 31 Dec 1998 12:39:33 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: GBlist: Minimum house size Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5453 Greetings, For an article I am writing for EBN, I am wondering if anyone on the list has experience with municipal zoning regulations that mandate minimum house size. I'm especially interested in town regulations that mandate a relatively large minimum house size--such as over 2500 square feet. If you can provide me with details and perhaps an excerpt or two from zoning regulations where these requirements are spelled out, that would be most appreciated. Wishing you all a prosperous (but resource-efficienct) New Year! Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News 122 Birge Street, Suite 30 Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300 802/257-7304 (fax) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Dec 31 15:19:44 1998 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA18445 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18262; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:15:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:10:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17871 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:10:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from highway61.together.net (highway61.together.net [204.97.123.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17862 for ; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:10:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-123-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.123]) by highway61.together.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA29278; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:13:37 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19981231151023.007cdb70@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:10:23 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re: Masonry Wood Stoves Cc: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@valley.net In-Reply-To: <199812310700.CAA20785@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5454 Dean -- In reply to your thoughtful description/quanitifying of masonry stove workings: My original quibble was not with the working of the stove, which, I agree, seems like it would do a great job at extracting, transferring and storing heat for release. The issue for me is where a massive heater is used in a house with solar gain that requires quick-on and quick-off of the backup heating system in order to avoid overheating, underheating or excess fuel use. The notion of building a masonry "box" around a metal stove, with operable vents, would allow closing the vents when the weather turns sunny, opening them when it turns cloudy, or other strategies. This would seem to be able to tune the heat output rate of the stove/masonry combo very nicely to such a house. I would be hard-pressed to estimate relative efficiencies between this and a masonry stove -- both seem to have +'s and -'s, particularly in the case of the house with solar gain. If you also take heat off the flue to heat hot water, that makes the efficiency picture a bit more complicated. For a low-solar-gain home a masonry heater could be a fine solution, although I question the cost relative to a wood stove. What is the range of installed cost for a masonry stove and chimney, with output, for example, for a house with a 30,000 Btu/hr design load? A larger issue seems to be embedded in this discussion, which I would characterize as follows: I don't believe we are necessarily looking for the most efficient solution, but rather the simplest solution that meets the need. And I include green building principles in "need." So "need" in this case is not just heating the house -- that we could do with an inefficient but cheap oil furnace -- but using a sustainable fuel, burning it cleanly, getting close to as much heat as is practical out of the wood, good IAQ, minimal resources built into the system to make it work well, etc. In a well insulated house, here in a 9,000 degree-day climate , one can feed a properly sized, EPA approved woodstove a couple of times a day in cold weather, more in very cold weather, less in warmer (when the sun isn't shining, if you have reasonable solar gain.) My EPA catalytic woodstove burns pretty clean, judging by about a cup of ash in a 20' flue after burning about 7 cords of wood. So the metal stove seems a simpler solution that seems to meet the need, particularly where the house is efficient and requires a reasonable amount of fuel -- one or two cords. What am I missing? Also, with regard to your last comment: >The masonry heat storage should >also be preferable in drafty houses, where heating the air is defeated >by many hourly air exchanges." The more cost effective and environmentally effective solution here is to button up the house! Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, inc Montpelier VT USA >From: Dean Still >Subject: GBlist: Masonry Wood Stoves > >Masonry Wood Stoves > (Some Basic Functions) >by >Dean Still >Aprovecho Research Center >apro@efn.org > >A few people on the CREST lists have recently suggested that adding mass >near an ordinary wood stove might accomplish some beneficial heat >storage, mimicking the function of a real masonry high mass heating >stove. In an effort to elucidate the functioning of a masonry stove, >Dr. Larry Winiarski, and I worked up a few “guesstimates” that we >believe are more or less close to describing what’s happening in this >type of stove. We introduce our guesses to hopefully shed light on the >parameters we see as important in design adaptations. > >1.) It is pretty darn hard to get a large percentage of heat into a >substance like air, water, rock, cement. A pot set directly over a flame >only absorbs about 10% to 20% of the total btu’s in the flame. The rest >shoots uselessly past the pot. To optimize heat absorption, flame and >hot flue gases must be forced to contact the surface of the mass, to rub >against it. (Also, for optimal heat transfer there has to be a big >difference in temperatures, good conductivity, etc.) Heat in a six inch >flue pipe mostly shoots up the middle of the pipe, not much heat is >transferred to the wall of the pipe. It’s better to make a different >shape of chimney pipe: a shallow, rectangular, one inch high passageway >with the same cross sectional area is much more efficient. Heat in a >narrow, tight passageway is forced to rub against the walls of the mass >and a higher percentage of the heat is absorbed. > >2.) Here is our guess about how much surface area in an optimized air to >mass heat exchanger is needed to accomplish heat transfer: Ten square >feet of optimized surface area, in which flame or very hot flue gas is >made to rub against mass, will lower temperatures about 200 degrees F. >Temperatures in the combustion chamber are about 2,300 degrees F. We >want exit temperatures, out of the chimney, to be around 200 degrees F. >So, in an optimized situation, at least 100 square feet of exposed >surface area is necessary to absorb the optimal amount of heat into the >mass. As a guess, we better figure that three to four times of non >optimized surface area, such as a round chimney pipe covered with mass, >will be needed to accomplish the same goal. > >3.) It so happens that, in our experience, an optimized air to air heat >exchanger needs roughly the same amount of surface area (10sf) to reduce >temperatures by 200 degrees F. > >4.) To summarize: an efficient heat exchange requires a lot of surface >area in even an optimized design! Piling mass near a stove can result in >very poor heat transfer. It will probably store only a small percentage >of the released heat because the heat from the stove is relatively cool >and there isn’t sufficient “rubbing”. > >5.) Stone or cement, or steel etc. all store approximately .2 btu’s per >degree of temperature rise(F.). A normal house will require something >like 20,000 btu’s per hour to keep it warm on a not too cold winter day. >1,000 pounds of such mass, if warmed up to 200 degrees F, stores 40,000 >btu’s, which is enough to keep the house warm for two hours. 10,000 >pounds of mass, driven up to the same temperature, warms the house for >ten hours. > >6.) Larry figures that you need something like 125sf or more of 200 >degree mass exposed to room air to transfer the 200,000 btu’s in ten >hours. > >7. A high mass masonry stove does two great things as well as all of the >preceding: 8.) wood is burned quickly, at high temperatures, reducing >smoke( without overheating the room) and 9.) the chimney and air feeding >the fire are tightly closed off as soon as the fire dies so that warm >room air doesn’t escape up the chimney encouraging increased cold air >exchange into the room. > >10.) All of the points raised here are met in a good masonry stove and, >together, the design characteristics combine to create a stove that >functions efficiently. It’s pretty hard to pull any part of this design >into use without dragging the whole time honored concept along with the >component part. It’s easy to overlook how hard it is to get heat into >mass. It’s also easy to hope that a small amount of mass will store an >appreciable amount of heat. But delving into the function of the >masonry stove gives one a real appreciation for a tool that, in its >combination of features, seems captivating, beautiful. Larry and I have >a much deeper respect for this type of stove after our contemplation of >it. > >11.) (Postscript.) Air to air heating stoves can be both as clean >burning and as fuel efficient as these air to mass stoves. The main >design problem is to create a very hot fire using a smaller amount of >wood and to make sure that the heat stays in the room without shooting >out of the chimney! Many air to air type heating stoves, if fed >properly, can accomplish clean burning and efficient heat transfer to >the room without resorting to bulky and expensive heat storage in mass. >An air to air heat exchanger can reduce exit temperatures just like an >air to mass model. The substantive difference is that a high mass >masonry stove encourages big, hot burns.The masonry heat storage should >also be preferable in drafty houses, where heating the air is defeated >by many hourly air exchanges. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 1 06:14:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA25907 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 06:14:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA11951; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 06:10:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 1 Jan 1999 06:05:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA11709 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 06:05:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA11705 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 06:05:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-73.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.73]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 05:47:35 -0500 Message-ID: <368CD713.2D3B@cyberzone.net> Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 06:09:23 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Wilson CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Minimum house size References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5455 Alex, You might also take a look at area requirements imposed by the developers for their own projects, which are often the culprit in ballooning the house size. It's amazing how house size equates with "quality." I looked at a just-completed house done by the builder who will be building my own house, and who is regarded locally as a good builder. This immense neo-victorian cost $350,000 not including the lot- I don't know the sf. The only difference between this house and a cookie-cutter 1750 sf spec colonial is its size. It had the same vinyl siding (with extra trim), the same colonial window casings (trimmed all 4 sides, no stool), the same carpet and cabinets. I wonder what it will look like in 30 years. Good luck with your article. I'll see if I can find some local regs. Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 1 07:04:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA26059 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 07:04:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA12959; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 07:00:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 1 Jan 1999 06:56:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA12686 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 06:56:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA12681 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 06:56:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-204.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.204]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 06:38:50 -0500 Message-ID: <368CE2FF.4EBE@cyberzone.net> Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 07:00:15 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Permanence/land use References: <199812291022.FAA20643@server.totalnetnh.net> <3689A589.51A6@cyberzone.net> <368A2AFE.7C6F@pei.sympatico.ca> <368B7EF6.6AB@cyberzone.net> <368B9BFA.3D7B@pei.sympatico.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5456 I wrote: > > Unfortunately, 2 acre zoning (in my neck of the woods) is what the > > general population wants, and they want strip malls, and they want > > plenty of parking right next to the building so they don't have to walk > > anywhere. The owners demand the parking in front of the building > > instead of the side or back, so people can see it, and don't want to > > listen to the argument that 99% of the people already know the building > > and where the parking is! My experience with planning on the local > > level to date is that people have very closely held beliefs about what > > will best preserve their "way of life", and will not listen to debate > > about why those beliefs in fact will destroy their way of life. > Phil Ferraro wrote: > I don't buy this argument. I think people are used to 2 acre subdivions > because this is the standard that is offered. However, people love "New > England" towns and university campuses where pedestrian traffic > prevails. Many European cities are now banning cars in favour of > pedestrian streets. Phil, What do you mean you don't buy the argument?? I wasn't making an argument, I was relating a direct experience! I have spent hours in zoning meetings talking about the benefits of open space subdivisions, and of the perils associated with our present zoning regulations and development patterns. After turning blue from so much talking, I've had members of the general public as well as my own commission members summarily dismiss all of it, or say something like "it sounds nice, but it won't work here". And that from a member with the real power to cast a vote and implement it! New Englanders SAY they love New England villages, and SOME of them like to visit them ONCE in a while, but they wouldn't want to live there, and if you separate them from their cars they'll slice your throat! In all fairness to my commission, we did however enact a well thought out plan of conservation and development, along with some very progressive regs to preserve the Route 169 scenic corridor, based not on zoning but on performance and preserving the viewshed. As for European cities banning cars in favor of pedestrians, Europe is much denser, having filled up centuries ago, so they haven't the choice! A coworker just came back from Holland and Germany and was amazed to find not a single wild thing in his travels. Every blade of grass, every tree and shrub, every animal seemed to be groomed and domesticated. After all, England cleared its last old growth timber 400 years ago, and when our turn comes, maybe then America will think differently about cars. Hell, the city of Hartford, CT, which is in the process of building a new downtown football stadium for the Patriots, is looking for TWENTY THOUSAND parking spaces to go with it, and the concept of "mass transit" to the Department of Transportation continues to mean "widen, straighten, flatten." Having said all this, I remain always optimistic about the future. I had been storing some candles in knicknacks in my soapbox, but I have since found another place for them... Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 1 07:14:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA26093 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 07:14:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA13250; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 07:10:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 1 Jan 1999 07:07:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA13017 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 07:07:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA13013 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 07:07:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-204.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.204]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 06:49:22 -0500 Message-ID: <368CE58E.258C@cyberzone.net> Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 07:11:10 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Harvey M. Sachs" CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: electrostatic/electronic air filters References: <3.0.3.32.19981221184706.00739018@pop.erols.com> <3.0.3.32.19981231180315.007243f4@pop.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5457 > Harvey Sachs wrote: > A friend has asked for advice which I will also need in the near future: > "Any recommendations on electronic/electrostatic air filters? My only > experience was with a 1970s era Honeywell electrostatic unit. I'd like to > use an electrostatic (or electronic) unit in tandem with a HEPA, and yes, > the whole purpose if the HEPA is based on pollen...and mold > spores...elimination due to allergies." > > Questions: does the tandem set-up make sense, or are the particle sizes > and capture efficiencies similar enough that either would do? My sense is > that the large pressure drop across a HEPA makes it problematic from an > energy efficiency perspective, but maybe not. Whose "boxes" have worked > well and reliably? Harvey, I am living with my father-in-law temporarily, and this house has an electrostatic. It crackles constantly when it runs, and ductwork has great reverb qualities! It's doing it right now and I think I'm going to pull out what little hair I have before I move out of here. I still have some time before making my own decision on filtration, but right now, I don't know... Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 1 10:36:06 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27608 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:36:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16805; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:27:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16403 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:27:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16395 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:27:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from sachs.erols.com (207-172-37-85.s85.tnt7.ann.erols.com [207.172.37.85]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA24525; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:31:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990101103011.0072a0d0@pop.erols.com> X-Sender: sachs@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 10:30:11 -0500 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net From: "Harvey M. Sachs" Subject: GBlist: Re: electrostatic/electronic air filters Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <368CE58E.258C@cyberzone.net> References: <3.0.3.32.19981221184706.00739018@pop.erols.com> <3.0.3.32.19981231180315.007243f4@pop.erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5458 Dan Pharazim wrote: >I am living with my father-in-law temporarily, and this house has an >electrostatic. It crackles constantly when it runs, and ductwork has >great reverb qualities! It's doing it right now and I think I'm going >to pull out what little hair I have before I move out of here. The last unit I had explicitly said that "crackling" meant that the filter was a bit beyond the time when it needed to be cleaned (by bathing it, or running through dishwasher cycle). At that point, the filter was fully loaded, and additional particles got noisily zapped instead of being attracted to the plates of the filter. I do NOT know the mechanism, the above is to be construed as a metaphor! harvey sachs ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 1 12:29:14 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA28412 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 12:29:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20215; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 12:25:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 1 Jan 1999 12:21:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19908 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 12:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from foo.icanect.net (foo.icanect.net [208.202.14.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19900 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 12:21:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from icanect.net (201.p2.txmia4.MIA.Icanect.Net [208.224.53.201]) by foo.icanect.net (8.8.8/ICA3.2) with ESMTP id MAA07383; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 12:20:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <368D03FC.4CEC6FAA@icanect.net> Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 12:21:01 -0500 From: Kelly Carpenter X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Wilson CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Minimum house size References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5459 Generally speaking, laws like you describe have been found to be unconstitutional. There is a New Jersey case in which such zoning was found to be "exclusionary". I think it is the Mt. Laurel decision of the mid 1970's. The way people and corporations get around it though is through restrictive covenants. And of course, the other way around it is through minimum lot size.......if you mandate large lots (which are legal) then you limit what is put on them to larger units simply through the market forces concerning the price of the land and the services to it. In some communities, the battle is now going in the opposite direction: building codes and health codes often set a minimum square footage that is "so low" that it allows very small units to be constructed. Builders take advantage of that minimum and use it against zoning laws or comprehensive plan policies that try to indirectly set much higher minimums. Sometimes this is a good thing..........and other times it isn't. When a multi-family builder sees state financing for senior housing and can take advantage of federal tax credits and finds a piece of land zoned right and fights to put it there......well, I guess we could argue that it is good. On the other hand, if there are no services, no busses, no shopping, no places of worship........we are allowing another high rise for seniors and either making them prisoners (in their appropriately small units! from our green perspective) or requiring that they have and drive a car. Zoning is a very complex issue and needs to be addressed not just in terms of square footage.......if very small minimums are allowed, other factors need to be present in my view: day care, meaningful bus transporation, food shopping, the ability to walk to services, open space, etc. Sincerely and with best wishes for a new year of health and forward movement, Kelly Alex Wilson wrote: > Greetings, > > For an article I am writing for EBN, I am wondering if anyone on the list > has experience with municipal zoning regulations that mandate minimum house > size. I'm especially interested in town regulations that mandate a > relatively large minimum house size--such as over 2500 square feet. If you > can provide me with details and perhaps an excerpt or two from zoning > regulations where these requirements are spelled out, that would be most > appreciated. > > Wishing you all a prosperous (but resource-efficienct) New Year! > > Alex Wilson, Editor > Environmental Building News > 122 Birge Street, Suite 30 > Brattleboro, VT 05301 > 802/257-7300 > 802/257-7304 (fax) > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 1 14:19:47 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00117 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 14:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23737; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 14:15:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 1 Jan 1999 14:11:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23470 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 14:11:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23462 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 14:11:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id NAA0000027783; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 13:12:10 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990101191507.006c8374@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 13:15:07 -0600 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Minimum house size Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5460 " It's amazing how house size equates with "quality." " The question of house size gets back to an old bugaboo to which I never received a good explanation. Almost every one of the architects we talked to working for us asked us first off how many square feet we had in mind. Since neither they nor I had designed a house for us yet I could only answer "not too big". Eventually I sat down and spent a lot of time figuring out a good size for each space we wanted. But then this was a long way into the design project. It seems to me that question is putting the cart before the horse. Just the simple question of "how much money would you like to spend?" would be more relevant. Sacie Lambertson And yes, most folks, regardless of quality, do equate size with price. That and great rooms and great entrances and multi-fireplaces and bathrooms and spa bathtubs and granite and sub-zero---boy someone has done a great job of marketing. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 1 15:25:07 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA00573 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 15:25:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA25874; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 15:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 1 Jan 1999 15:17:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA25566 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 15:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25562 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 15:17:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.123] (208.254.3.123) by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Fri, 1 Jan 1999 12:25:19 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Minimum house size Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 12:22:20 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "David F. Lambertson" , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1296900178-2241798@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5461 Sacie To some degree, I think this falls into the category of "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." In the building business, floor area is the easiest way to quantify a project. Ideas like cozy, charming, efficient, and sustainable can not be measured directly -- at least not easily. There is no common language to express these design concepts. An article in the Energy Source Builder archives talks about principles of designing small and offers an alternative measure of size called "perceptual space," which takes into account visual axes through the space. You can see the article at: http://oikos.com/esb/52/smallefficient.html I don't expect these ideas to take the construction industry by storm. However, I have no doubt that thoughtful designers and builders are struggling with these issues, too. Most builders say it's consumers that drive the train. So, consumers need to learn to be more thoughtful. People in the building business can be the teachers. Bruce S >Almost every one of the architects we talked >to working for us asked us first off how many square feet we had in mind. >Since neither they nor I had designed a house for us yet I could only answer >"not too big". ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 1 17:20:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA01406 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:20:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00087; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:16:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:13:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA29814 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:12:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA29810 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:12:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-113.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.113]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 16:55:05 -0500 Message-ID: <368D736E.170F@cyberzone.net> Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 17:16:30 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Minimum house size References: <1.5.4.32.19990101191507.006c8374@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5462 > Sacie Lambertson wrote: > The question of house size gets back to an old bugaboo to which I never > received a good explanation. Almost every one of the architects we talked > to working for us asked us first off how many square feet we had in mind. I think it's shameful that your architects asked about square footage first. They could have at least started with the basics of program, from which all designs spring. And I should know, having just designed my own house! What an eye-opening experience, from a lot of viewpoints! One of these days soon I'll write more about this unfolding saga. Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 1 17:39:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA01512 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:38:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00732; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:35:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:31:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA00489 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:31:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA00485 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:31:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-100.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.100]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 17:13:21 -0500 Message-ID: <368D77B2.3EDB@cyberzone.net> Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 17:34:42 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding , Bill Smith CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:(Temporary Insanity) Permanence References: <199812311039.FAA25883@server.totalnetnh.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5463 Bill, Yes, let's keep unraveling this thread about development and land use. It's a subject near and dear to my heart. You wrote about the automobile and land use. No, the auto makers didn't write the land use laws. The presence of cheap, fast, go-anywhere transportation and the advent of the paved road allowed John Q. Public to write it for himself. America was settled (substitute "conquered" for PC compliance) by people fleeing somewhere else- outcasts, explorers, loners, people saying "to hell with you all, I'm going to America to do what I damn well please!" That notion then pushed us west, and we still live with that notion today. Like letting the genie out of the bottle, the existance of the car, along with the introduction of the paved road from the 1920's onward, allowed us the ultimate freedom to flee or just go somewhere else. If you're looking for collusion (or merely business depending on viewpoint), that can be found in the relationship between the car makers, the oil producers and the road builders, aided by government policy. There's a great book called "Getting There" about the evolution of the American road and the demise of the railroad. In the 1920's, planner and essayist Benton MacKaye condemned the beginnings of commercial sprawl along the roads in Massachussetts. He championed the notion of the "highwayless town" and the "townless highway". Towns should be distinct, with clearly defined edges, connected by main highways through the countryside containing only rest stops and services for travelers. Even then, the trend for the future was clear, and we're living it now. In regard to Wade Eide's earlier post about the need to return to building cities, I think communications and travel technology will continue to destroy the notion of cities. For most of human history, cities were essential as places of culture, government, protection, commerce, food, and communication, to name a few things. Are cities now essential to human growth and development? You can communicate with anyone anywhere in real time and get raspberries from Chile in January (can anyone figure out the energy wasted?). Money and goods flow like tidal waves, respecting no borders, and land, air and seaports seem to do just fine locating themselves away from metropolitan areas. A few years ago, somebody around here was proposing a mega air freight terminal in the wilds of the Connecticut/Rhode Island border. Before being dismissed as a crackpot idea, it got quite a lot of press, and may one day return. Comments, Listers? As for spelling, I'd like to say that dogs are better spellers than cats, but I've seen no evidence whatsoever in my schnauzer to support that. Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 1 18:35:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA01937 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 18:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02866; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 18:31:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 1 Jan 1999 18:27:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02551 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 18:27:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from .www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02546 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 18:27:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip03.ivnet.net [206.101.73.163]) by .www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA25092; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 15:16:50 -0800 Message-ID: <368D58F7.4CDEEEA5@ivnet.net> Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 15:23:35 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Beverly A. Weiter" CC: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: experience References: <19981210.112216.9526.3.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> <368A2E9D.4C5@cyberzone.net> <19981230.104806.11494.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5464 Requiring jobsite apprenticeship for designers and architects sounds a little much. Although IMHO the best practitioners have had considerable, even ongoing, practical experience, making that a requirement sounds a little stiff. It precludes some handicapped people, for example. Others may just not have work habits that let them move their bodies effectively as a means of accomplishing things. Some folks are better suited for desk jobs, and may be excellent designers. Especially regarding specialties, like HVAC or electrical engineering. But in general, if you're going to tell someone how to do something, it helps to know how to do it yourself. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon Perhaps that is the problem in that most states > are not requiring professional licensing for designers. > > Like any profession there are good and bad aspects and good and bad > practitioners. > Maybe we should require one year of apprenticeship on a jobsite as part > of the part of the internship for both architects and designers. > > Beverly Weiter > Environs Interiors > Boca Raton, FL > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 1 20:05:15 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA02889 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 20:05:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA06325; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 20:01:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 1 Jan 1999 19:57:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA06009 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 19:57:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06005 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 19:57:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-2-1.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.2.1]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA17626; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 19:56:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <368D707C.171A2CA6@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 20:03:56 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Minimum house size References: <1.5.4.32.19990101191507.006c8374@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> <368D736E.170F@cyberzone.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E6E15B269E33E405B90F7291" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5465 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E6E15B269E33E405B90F7291 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dan, You refer to 'program'. Is there a book that covers the 'design' approach that you are describing? I'm not familiar with home design methodologies and if you have any suggestions (fresh from experience) some references would be great. Can you suggest any? TIA Neil Dan and Pam wrote: > > > Sacie Lambertson wrote: > > The question of house size gets back to an old bugaboo to which I never > > received a good explanation. Almost every one of the architects we talked > > to working for us asked us first off how many square feet we had in mind. > > I think it's shameful that your architects asked about square footage > first. They could have at least started with the basics of program, > from which all designs spring. And I should know, having just designed > my own house! What an eye-opening experience, from a lot of > viewpoints! One of these days soon I'll write more about this unfolding > saga. > > Regards, > Dan Harazim > Canterbury, CT > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" --------------E6E15B269E33E405B90F7291 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="nspiegel.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Neil Spiegel Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="nspiegel.vcf" begin:vcard n:Spiegel;Neil x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;;Toronto;Ontario;M5R 3E9;Canada version:2.1 email;internet:nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca title:Outsourcing Technical Project Manager tel;fax:416-534-7888 tel;work:416-534-9792 note:I suggest the purple, I think it looks wonderful on you. Oh no, no, no, I should say I prefer the yellow. x-mozilla-cpt:;65535 fn:Neil Spiegel end:vcard --------------E6E15B269E33E405B90F7291-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 1 22:28:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA03997 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 22:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10996; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 22:24:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 1 Jan 1999 22:20:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10636 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 22:20:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlas.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [209.250.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10632 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 22:20:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from timex.pathcom.com (ts44l34.pathcom.com [209.250.145.235]) by atlas.pathcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA29279 for ; Fri, 1 Jan 1999 22:23:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901020323.WAA29279@atlas.pathcom.com> From: timex@pathcom.com To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 22:22:33 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Where to start? Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com In-reply-to: <34044677.8A4D661C@seaside.net> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5466 Hi all: Well, here I am again, and grandma has bought her first little house. And boy-oh-boy, do I have problems. It was a power of sale, with no chance to inspect properly and no conditions acceptable upon offer, so I took a chance. I think maybe I lost this one . . . Started with finding out there were 34 municipal work orders against the house (civil enforcement - it was a crack house). Most are simple stuff like paint and handrails, which I can handle. The biggie is a *badly* crumbling foundation wall which is in critical shape. I have supported the main lengthwise beam on the inside, but will need to get it fixed fast or else get some support on the end beam from the outside before the sliding glass doors fall out. I had written to Rob Thom on the list, becasue I still had his e-dress and he suggested that it would be best to get a proper foundation contractor to do this. someone had tried to change/fix it before and let the concrete freeze, looks like, and so now I have a virtual 'sand wall'. Only problem is, all the foundation contractors I called only work on big projects, can't find anyone who will do a 'little' job like this. Was going to have the whole wall replaced and go down another 8 inches or so and put in a door, but now will just repair and when I have some bigger bucks to spend will push the wall out about 10 more feet and do the whole thing. Any suggestions on this fix? Pour or block? Can I do it in the cold weather, or better to prop and wait til spring? Next urgent matter is a 2nd storey front wall and half the floor in that front room with no insulation. If the wind is blowing off the lake, the wall gets cold enough to 'burn' your hands if you touch it. The room is built so that the front half sticks out over the front porch downstairs, and I think was a add-on after the house was built in the '20s. I can pull the 'ceiling' of the porch off and stick in some fiberglass or something (suggestions?) to insulate the 2nd storey floor, but the wall worries me, because all I can think of is that foam that they drill and blow in, and I would like to stay away from that unless there is something new and not so deadly in terms of gassing off and fumes. Just the new carpets here have kept me really sick for a month now, so would hate to add that stuff to the atmosphere. But I have to do something fast, because it gets so cold here some nights that 3 pairs of pj/sweatsuits, extra blankets and a hot water bottle all combined still won't keep me warm enough to sleep. And I have a tenant, so sleeping in another room is not really an option right now. If anyone has any ideas or suggestions about that front wall, I would sure appreciate it. Also if anyone knows of any reliable contractors and tradespeople in the Toronto area, that would be good too. Especially a plumber. I thought I had a good plumber, but three times here and he still hasn't found where the overflow on the bathtub is leaking into the kitchen, and now he says he's busy on a big job and can't come. Got a sewer gas problem too. Really nice to be back here, and I will look forward to reading all the good ideas that I can save for later use on my labour of love here. I have a strong feeling that nothing you can talk about will be without relevance to me anymore - and for a long while marilyn Cybercrone http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ "The archer strikes the target - partly by pulling and partly by letting go" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 2 00:34:42 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA05472 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 00:34:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA14837; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 00:30:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 2 Jan 1999 00:26:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA14528 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 00:26:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA14524 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 00:26:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.pitt.edu (pgh257.icubed.com [208.157.22.57]) by post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cispo-7.2.2.2) ID for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 00:27:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <368DADEC.9AE45B82@pop.pitt.edu> Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 00:26:05 -0500 From: AO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Attic Insulation: Fiberglass batts - health issues. 1/1/99 F 11:38pm Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5467 Hi! As a renter, I'm new at this. I'm about to install rolls of fiberglass in the attic tomorrow. It occurs to me that there may be health & environmental issues around fiberglass rolls. Would some kindly soul/s, who're already very knowledgeable about this topic, please share their opinion and advise about fiberglass and other insulation materials? One area of of special concern that perhaps should effect whether to go with the fiberglass, is exposure to glass fibers or dust, because I may turn the attic into a usable space. (As the insulation is to be installed in a well-ventilated (unfinished) attic, I don't feel as concerned about the health aspects of the gassing out of chemical binders and formaldehyde, etc.) I'm seriously considering putting the attic to use by installing an attic ladder and laying a few boards across the rafters for storage. The insulation would be in the open, i.e. not sealed, enclosed or covered. People would be going back and forth between the insulated area and the main living area (kitchen access). And the living area is extremely small at about 256 sq. ft., so any loose fibers entering the area would, per sq. in., be more concentrated. I'd also like to know the pros and cons of different materials for attic insulation (such as health & safety, environment, R-value, convenience, cost, etc). I may be reached by email, or by voice mail message at 412-734-8311 (24 hrs). If you leave a number, I can return the call. Thank you very much for your help. Happy New Year! A. Ohrman ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 2 01:23:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA06015 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 01:23:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA16308; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 01:19:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 2 Jan 1999 01:15:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA16053 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 01:15:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA16045 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 01:15:27 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id CUGLa19752; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 01:15:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4ac2c178.368db973@aol.com> Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 01:15:15 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: nore@pop.pitt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation: Fiberglass batts - health issues. 1/1/99 F 11:38pm Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5468 Since this is an attic insulation job, I suggest a better material than standard fiberglass batts or rolls (wich contain formaldehyde binder and asphalt adhesive for facing paper, and with fibers that are at least irritating and at most carcinogenic). Owens Corning has come up with "Miraflex" fiberglass insulation batts which use a different fiber size and design. The fibers are long (not respirable or likely to adhere to the lining of the lungs) and twisted (they stick to one another like velcro and do not need a binder to hold their shape and form). There is no backing, the batts are wrapped in a perforated polyethylene sleeve so the rolls won't stick together and to aid in handling during installation. The sleeve is NOT a vapor barrier. Two thicknesses are available, R-19 and R-25. Widths for 16" or 24" centers are available. Cost is comparable to standard fiberglass. Fibers do not itch and irritate eyes and skin. Fibers are heavy and long and do not fly in the air during installation. Even so, I suggest wearing gloves, eye protection and at least a good quality particle mask for the operation. Protect soft upholstered surfaces in the house by covering with tarps. Minimize the pathways traveled by workers through the interior of the house. Open the rolls in the attic rather than carrying open strips through the house. Vacuum the interior rooms after the job is complete (HEPA filtered vacuum is best). Since you are considering using the attic for storage, the connection between the attic and the living space below would allow for contamination from standard fiberglass whenever the hatch is opened or stored items are put in or taken out. All the more reason for using Miraflex here. I do not recommend using unconditioned attic spaces for storage because of the likelihood of condensation, mold, super heating in summer, and infiltration of attic dust to the air of the rooms below. Attics used for storage should be insulated at the roof above, not ventilated with openings to the outdoors and should be minimally conditioned with regard to temperature and humidity. Miraflex works best in attic or under floor applications, because the thickness limits its use for stud walls and there is no paper facing for attaching it to vertical wall cavities. So long as you are careful to cover the entire attic with no gaps; so long as you do not mess up the wiring or plumbing or other utilities in the attic; so long as you do not place the insulation in contact with heat-producing light fixtures or other devices, so long as you do not fall through the ceiling while crawling around in the attic; so long as you adhere to all the principles of professional insulation application, this material should be superior to regular fiberglass in the application you describe. One layer of Miraflex between the ceiling joists might be followed by placing a second layer snuggly over the tops of the joists, preventing the thermal bridging of the wood material and adding further R-value to the entire job. Enjoy your project. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone: 510-841-1039 fax: 510-841-1008 iaqkibbey@aol.com In a message dated 1/1/1999 9:28:48 PM, nore@pop.pitt.edu writes: >Hi! > >As a renter, I'm new at this. > >I'm about to install rolls of fiberglass in the attic tomorrow. It >occurs to me that there may be health & environmental issues around >fiberglass rolls. Would some kindly soul/s, who're already very >knowledgeable about this topic, please share their opinion and advise >about fiberglass and other insulation materials? > >One area of of special concern that perhaps should effect whether to go >with the fiberglass, is exposure to glass fibers or dust, because I may >turn the attic into a usable space. (As the insulation is to be >installed in a well-ventilated (unfinished) attic, I don't feel as >concerned about the health aspects of the gassing out of chemical >binders and formaldehyde, etc.) I'm seriously considering putting the >attic to use by installing an attic ladder and laying a few boards >across the rafters for storage. The insulation would be in the open, >i.e. not sealed, enclosed or covered. > >People would be going back and forth between the insulated area and the >main living area (kitchen access). And the living area is extremely >small at about 256 sq. ft., so any loose fibers entering the area would, >per sq. in., be more concentrated. > >I'd also like to know the pros and cons of different materials for attic >insulation (such as health & safety, environment, R-value, convenience, >cost, etc). > >I may be reached by email, or by voice mail message at 412-734-8311 (24 >hrs). If you leave a number, I can return the call. > >Thank you very much for your help. > >Happy New Year! > > >A. Ohrman > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 2 09:43:30 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA08967 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 09:43:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26346; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 09:39:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 2 Jan 1999 09:35:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26106 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 09:35:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (j1/4h2uUTQNBC/LR1k/BPB+NvwqituPX@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26102 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 09:35:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (ykkXO/dkNi85D4o7covxV2u4Qrva+14b@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA25178; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 08:35:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA01956; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 08:35:27 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <368E2E77.502F5E7D@gs.net> Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 08:34:31 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-bls40 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: timex@pathcom.com CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Where to start? References: <199901020323.WAA29279@atlas.pathcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5469 Re: the foundation. You might give consideration to installing a wood frame for the this section of wall rather than going back with concrete. Still would have to dig out on the outside to get it properly drained and sealed, but lots cheaper than installing a new cement wall. You might consider blown in cellulose in the wall. That should not out gas. Steve timex@pathcom.com wrote: > Hi all: > > Well, here I am again, and grandma has bought her first little house. And > boy-oh-boy, do I have problems. It was a power of sale, with no chance to > inspect properly and no conditions acceptable upon offer, so I took a > chance. I think maybe I lost this one . . . > Started with finding out there were 34 municipal work orders against the > house (civil enforcement - it was a crack house). Most are simple stuff > like paint and handrails, which I can handle. > The biggie is a *badly* crumbling foundation wall which is in critical > shape. I have supported the main lengthwise beam on the inside, but will > need to get it fixed fast or else get some support on the end beam from > the outside before the sliding glass doors fall out. I had written to Rob > Thom on the list, becasue I still had his e-dress and he suggested that it > would be best to get a proper foundation contractor to do this. someone > had tried to change/fix it before and let the concrete freeze, looks like, > and so now I have a virtual 'sand wall'. Only problem is, all the > foundation contractors I called only work on big projects, can't find > anyone who will do a 'little' job like this. Was going to have the whole > wall replaced and go down another 8 inches or so and put in a door, but > now will just repair and when I have some bigger bucks to spend will push > the wall out about 10 more feet and do the whole thing. > > Any suggestions on this fix? Pour or block? Can I do it in the cold > weather, or better to prop and wait til spring? > > Next urgent matter is a 2nd storey front wall and half the floor in that > front room with no insulation. If the wind is blowing off the lake, the > wall gets cold enough to 'burn' your hands if you touch it. The room is > built so that the front half sticks out over the front porch downstairs, > and I think was a add-on after the house was built in the '20s. I can > pull the 'ceiling' of the porch off and stick in some fiberglass or > something (suggestions?) to insulate the 2nd storey floor, but the wall > worries me, because all I can think of is that foam that they drill and > blow in, and I would like to stay away from that unless there is something > new and not so deadly in terms of gassing off and fumes. Just the new > carpets here have kept me really sick for a month now, so would hate to > add that stuff to the atmosphere. But I have to do something fast, > because it gets so cold here some nights that 3 pairs of pj/sweatsuits, > extra blankets and a hot water bottle all combined still won't keep me > warm enough to sleep. And I have a tenant, so sleeping in another room is > not really an option right now. > > If anyone has any ideas or suggestions about that front wall, I would sure > appreciate it. Also if anyone knows of any reliable contractors and > tradespeople in the Toronto area, that would be good too. Especially a > plumber. I thought I had a good plumber, but three times here and he > still hasn't found where the overflow on the bathtub is leaking into the > kitchen, and now he says he's busy on a big job and can't come. Got > a sewer gas problem too. > > Really nice to be back here, and I will look forward to reading all the > good ideas that I can save for later use on my labour of love here. I > have a strong feeling that nothing you can talk about will be without > relevance to me anymore - and for a long while > > marilyn > Cybercrone > http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ > "The archer strikes the target - partly by pulling and partly by letting go" > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 2 09:52:31 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09041 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 09:52:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26926; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 09:48:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 2 Jan 1999 09:44:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26511 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 09:44:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (V4FtUmBwuB23UEz6ouAuPKAnhC0pPqjP@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26504 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 09:44:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (ap9yPS6C2XBq2bQmxMW/9f1G77S6OvEe@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA25589; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 08:45:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA02119; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 08:45:14 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <368E30C2.CD064C94@gs.net> Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 08:44:18 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-bls40 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce CC: "Beverly A. Weiter" , dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: experience References: <19981210.112216.9526.3.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> <368A2E9D.4C5@cyberzone.net> <19981230.104806.11494.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> <368D58F7.4CDEEEA5@ivnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5470 Was talking with a good friend last night. We were discussing Architects who sometimes did not have a clue. I.E. they have not been out to work in the field. Mind you I did not bring this conversation up. Anyway his company does steel stud and drywall. Has a big job locally. Part of it involves building and hanging fourteen foot tall partition walls. They go from the ceiling and hang down to to within eight feet of the floor ... this is the opening for concession service areas. ...The open span is 28 feet. So the wall is 28 ft wide and fourteen feet tall. It calls for a 4 foot tall truss at the bottom and here is the kicker. He has to hang the wall in mid air. But he cannot attach it to the ceiling or the edge walls or the pilasters where he has 2" of space if.... they would let him attach.... He has been asking for a sky hook to hang 28 of these multi ton walls.... So far the architect has told him .... get the idea???? Anyway my friend suggested that the architect go stand under the wall while his men pull the screws out that he said needed to be removed.... Steve Bruce wrote: > Requiring jobsite apprenticeship for designers and architects sounds a > little much. Although IMHO the best practitioners have had considerable, > even ongoing, practical experience, making that a requirement sounds a > little stiff. It precludes some handicapped people, for example. Others > may just not have work habits that let them move their bodies > effectively as a means of accomplishing things. Some folks are better > suited for desk jobs, and may be excellent designers. Especially > regarding specialties, like HVAC or electrical engineering. But in > general, if you're going to tell someone how to do something, it helps > to know how to do it yourself. > Bruce Donelson > A Better Builder > Takilma Oregon > Perhaps that is the problem in that most states > > are not requiring professional licensing for designers. > > > > Like any profession there are good and bad aspects and good and bad > > practitioners. > > Maybe we should require one year of apprenticeship on a jobsite as part > > of the part of the internship for both architects and designers. > > > > Beverly Weiter > > Environs Interiors > > Boca Raton, FL > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 2 11:04:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09546 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 11:04:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA28930; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 11:00:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 2 Jan 1999 10:55:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28635 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 10:55:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlas.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [209.250.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28631 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 10:55:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from timex.pathcom.com (ts41l26.pathcom.com [209.250.145.83]) by atlas.pathcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA07368; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 10:58:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901021558.KAA07368@atlas.pathcom.com> From: timex@pathcom.com To: ledbalon Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 10:57:35 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Where to start? Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" In-reply-to: <368E2E77.502F5E7D@gs.net> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5471 Steve: > You might consider blown in cellulose in the wall. That should not out gas. > Thanks for the advice. I have heard that there can be problems with the cellulose settling and clumping up and those kinds of things, leaving holes in the insulation. Is that just from poor instalation or can it still be a problem however it is done? Thanks marilyn Cybercrone http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ "The archer strikes the target - partly by pulling and partly by letting go" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 2 13:35:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11674 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 13:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05674; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 13:31:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 2 Jan 1999 13:26:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05289 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 13:26:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05274 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 13:26:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id DXYSPHWB; Sat, 02 Jan 1999 13:26:41 EST To: nore@pop.pitt.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 13:26:15 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation: Fiberglass batts - health issues. 1/1/99 F 11:38pm Message-ID: <19990102.133225.3318.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <368DADEC.9AE45B82@pop.pitt.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,6-7,9,11-15 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5472 Hi, Re health issue on fibreglass batts, you didn't say what kind. The regular yellow stuff is real nasty and does indeed outgas. Worse, loose fibres can break off and get into your duct system and be spread through the air in the house. This creates a potential danger similar to that of asbestos. Johns Manville and Owens Corning both are now making an encapsulated (wrapped) and OC has one that is dye free and twisted - Miraflex. Both are better choices if you intend to use fibreglass. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 2 17:17:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA13983 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 17:17:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA12920; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 17:13:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 2 Jan 1999 17:08:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA12555 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 17:08:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from minden.netsurf.de (privat.kkf.net [212.63.32.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA12551 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 17:08:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from privat.kkf.net (mi-dial46.privat.kkf.net [212.63.37.46]) by minden.netsurf.de (8.8.8/8.8.3) with SMTP id XAA03837 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:07:30 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199901022207.XAA03837@minden.netsurf.de> Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:12:15 +0100 From: "Alexander.Neumann" Reply-To: "Alexander.Neumann" To: Greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation/cellulose X-Mailer: AK-Mail 3.0b [ger] (unregistered) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id RAA12552 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5473 I do not know the Miraflex material, it sounds at least better than fibreglass or rockwool, but it doesn´t sound like a recycled material. But then, where`s the air barrier in this story? The only insulation I know which is in itself airtight is properly blown-in- cellulose, which I would favor anyways...because it can handle moisture without losing it´s r-value, because it weighs about 2-3 times as much as fiberglass with the same r-value, (i.e. better sound and heat insulation) and because it´s recycled, and can be reused , or disintegrates naturally once exposed to the weather, and of course because I´m convinced it´s just the best, tightest, friendliest and most flexible insulation you can get. For the very few cases it is not the best option for what reason ever I use Homatherm batts, which are in shape and purpose similar to conventional fibrebatts, only that they´re made from cellulose and "Jute"fibres, and are also a LOT heavier than fibrebatts. But they´re kind of expensive, so every space deeper than 2" is better and cheaper filled with blowing. Third option I see is one of the latest products here in germany, batts made of hemp, in the characteristics pretty close to fibreglass, just not itchy, not carcinogenic, but neither recycled. So, back to the attic,,, I think you can´t really get around some kind of air barrier and sheathing, and in that case I´d recommend blown in cellulose. For Marylins concerns, settling is not supposed to happen in a proper installation, nevertheless it´s kind of hard to check. So I would recommend to look for a trustworthy contractor who garuantees in the contract a settlement-free , i.e. dense enough installation. Yours, Alex N. Euro-Land ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 2 18:36:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA15258 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:36:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15748; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:32:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:28:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA15424 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:28:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [209.210.78.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA15420 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:28:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from nistone (usr21.cwo.com [207.173.11.21]) by mail.cwo.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA24159 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 15:31:17 -0800 Message-ID: <000b01be36a7$a9cee720$150badcf@nistone> Reply-To: "Nehemiah I. Stone" From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: sprawl Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 15:26:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5474 Dan, Bill and others concerned about sprawl, Dan wrote (in part): "From: Dan and Pam Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:(Temporary Insanity) Permanence [snip] You wrote about the automobile and land use. No, the auto makers didn't write the land use laws. The presence of cheap, fast, go-anywhere transportation and the advent of the paved road allowed John Q. Public to write it for himself." ... and continued with a brief overview of the collusion between the automakers, oil companies and road builders. In actuality the third party to the collusion was the tire manufacturers. It has been documented that chief players among those three industries bought up local rail lines and dismantled them in the 1930s and '40s. The commuter line from San Jose to Santa Cruz, California is a good example. It's now too expensive to rebuild the rail line so every year people die and millions are spent on gas and oil for the trip over Highway 17. There is a continuity between this thread and the other one that Alex started regarding minimum house size. (I want to apologize before starting for a potentially preachy tone, but economics always seems to bring that out in me.) Mr. Smith's "invisible hand" is the driving force (no pun offended) in the trend toward sprawl and house sizes that are larger than habitat requires. Like almost every other trend in the U.S. of A., if we are understand and effect change in the market for the related goods and services, we need to understand the economic drivers. Unlike nearly every other country in the world, North Americans let the economy dictate outcomes. I don't think it is useful to get into a debate on this list as to whether this a good thing or a bad thing (this should be debated more in the national political arena however). It is enough to recognize that that is the path we have chosen in this country. Couple our penchant for absolute individual rights when it comes to reproduction, and I'm afraid that there can be no other outcome than what we see. You cannot legislate people who have growing incomes into modesty. The best that can be done is incremental good sense planning. The County planners are generally more sensitive to the economic concerns of bigger businesses because they bring in the refvenues that fund the services we all expect of local government - schools, roads, sewerage, education, and safety services. If we can, through our participation, incrementally move the 'plan' toward a more sustainable design, then we should pop the corks and pat each other on the back. When Mr. Hurwitz (of Maxxam and Lincoln Savings and Loan 'infame') took over a lumber company in Humboldt County, CA in the 1980's, he called all the workers to a meeting in the town hall (which the lumber company owned - the town, not just the hall). He spent all of one minute talking to them before leaving his deputies to explain details. What he said was that he lives, and by extension the lumber company will live, by the 'golden rule.' "He who has the gold rules!" As crass and indigestible as that statement was (is), it's true. There are many ways to effect change. The one most powerful and more sure, is the pocketbook. Find out how you can affect the pocketbook of the person, company, industry or government entity, and that is how you will bring your ideas to fruition. Establish in the minds of the planners (using detailed economic analysis) how it is in the best interests of the county to preserve open space, designate significant areas of the county for smaller minimum lot sizes or provide advantages to developers who supply the market with more reasonably sized homes, and you are much more likely to get their votes. I helped to develop the Housing Element of the Humboldt County General Plan in the 1980s and wrote a pretty effective statement for affordable housing or second housing. It was accepted by some only because the state law requires affordable housing of some sort in the general plan, but was embraced by others because it came with arguments for increased construction jobs, a boost to the local economy in general and a chance to keep more of our young people close to home. Again, I apologize if I came off 'preachy." Nehemiah ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 2 18:56:26 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA15409 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:56:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16381; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:52:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:48:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA16087 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:48:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16082 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:48:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-249.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.249]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 18:30:41 -0500 Message-ID: <368EDB5C.28E3@cyberzone.net> Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 18:52:12 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ledbalon CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Skyhooks in metal stud construction References: <19981210.112216.9526.3.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> <368A2E9D.4C5@cyberzone.net> <19981230.104806.11494.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> <368D58F7.4CDEEEA5@ivnet.net> <368E30C2.CD064C94@gs.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5475 Steve wrote: > He has to hang the wall in mid air. But he cannot attach it to the ceiling or > the edge walls or the pilasters where he has 2" of space if.... they would > let him attach.... He has been asking for a sky hook to hang 28 of these > multi ton walls.... So far the architect has told him .... get the idea???? I haven't seen skyhooks used in years! Some guys in college used to use them, for 4" slabs spanning 60 feet and the like, often over parking garages where parking spaces are 6 x 16 feet. There's always a solution to parking problems. The problem with skyhooks these days is that the ever-more stringent seismic requirements mandate all sorts of diagonal bracing and clearances, and there's all kinds of calculations we need to show on the drawings to satisfy the building officials. So the cables wind up getting fatter, and the connections get chunkier with plates, fins, clip angles and grommets, so most of the time we just say "Heck, can't we just use a steel beam? Let me know how big it has to be, but keep it to 3-5/8" wide or less so I can stuff it into that metal stud wall!" Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 2 23:26:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA18001 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:26:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA26309; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:22:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:18:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25695 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:18:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix2.interkan.net (root@unix2.interkan.net [12.13.79.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25691 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:18:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from interkan.net (pm3-mhk91.interkan.net [12.13.79.121]) by unix2.interkan.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/jpw@interkan.net) with ESMTP id WAA22272; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:18:47 -0600 Message-ID: <368D6875.2C2FAE85@interkan.net> Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 18:29:51 -0600 From: Tamara & Bill Dorsett Reply-To: dorsett@interkan.net Organization: Health Options X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Harvey M. Sachs" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, mboyd@tandemengineering.com Subject: Re: GBlist: electrostatic/electronic air filters References: <3.0.3.32.19981221184706.00739018@pop.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5476 Harvey, on the topic of HEPA or electronic air filters, my family also has the sneezes so I faced this delima several years ago. ASHRAE studied the problem and compared filters and concluded that electrostatic filters may operate at high efficiencies for the first twenty minutes but quickly got coated to the point of being ineffective. HEPA filters so restricted air flow that 1. they cause the fan motor to overwork and that by lowering air flow they were not as good overall as more conventional filters. So the filter I ended up with was a Air Handler brandcommercial bag filter from WW Grainger (No. 5W448 fiberglass and No. 6B627 for synthetic fiber). These have about eight 29" pockets and so have a much higher surface area than regular pleated furnace filters (100sq. ft vrs 7.5sq. ft). These are designed for hospitals, schools, etc. So they don't need replacing as frequently but are considerably more expensive. Per month they probably cost about the same. While they their initial ASHRAE efficiency is 90-95%, so while they don't filter as well per pass, they allow a high volume of air to flow through so the volume of house air is multiples higher than through a HEPA. And as the pores in the filter clog, the efficiency increases. Standard pleated air filters have an ASHRAE efficiency of 20-35%. I had a sheet metal shop fold together the box for the filter (cost about $200) which I put in up-stream from the and the filters cost $69.50 ea. from the Grainger catelog. There is a "fiberglass pocket air filter" and for five dollars more, a synthetic pocket air filter which I prefer because it won't allow glass fibers into the air stream. We have been very happy with ours and I hope this is a help to you. Harvey M. Sachs wrote: > A friend has asked for advice which I will also need in the near future: > "Any recommendations on electronic/electrostatic air filters? My only > experience was with a 1970s era Honeywell electrostatic unit. I'd like to > use an electrostatic (or electronic) unit in tandem with a HEPA, and yes, > the whole purpose if the HEPA is based on pollen...and mold > spores...elimination due to allergies." > > Questions: does the tandem set-up make sense, or are the particle sizes > and capture efficiencies similar enough that either would do? My sense is > that the large pressure drop across a HEPA makes it problematic from an > energy efficiency perspective, but maybe not. Whose "boxes" have worked > well and reliably? > > TIA > > Harvey "sneeze" Sachs > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 2 23:27:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA18009 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:27:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA26303; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:22:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:18:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25726 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:18:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix2.interkan.net (root@unix2.interkan.net [12.13.79.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25720 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:18:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from interkan.net (pm3-mhk91.interkan.net [12.13.79.121]) by unix2.interkan.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/jpw@interkan.net) with ESMTP id WAA22283; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 22:19:00 -0600 Message-ID: <368D924B.9E14EF74@interkan.net> Date: Fri, 01 Jan 1999 21:28:19 -0600 From: Tamara & Bill Dorsett Reply-To: dorsett@interkan.net Organization: Health Options X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: recorder2 CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Modified Bitumen References: <368275AF.2251AEB2@lvcm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5477 Jim Phypers wrote asking about flat roofing material. Hot tar residential roofs are typically not guaranteed for more than 2 yrs. I think they are guaranteed to leak. After twenty years of building sunrooms, when confronted with flat roofs, we always recommend EPDM rubber roofing from Firestone or Carlisle. It can be bought from a wholesaler for about 50 cents a sq. ft. You contact cement (about $60/bucket) it to the roof decking (environmental contact cement? I use a respirator when applying) and it comes in sheets which can either be seamless or vulcanized. Keep sharp chair legs off of it but patches can be vulcanized over any holes. Being black, it gets hot during the day but you can paint it with light colored latex paint. To put it down, we fold the sheet in half over a 2x4 glue one half of the sheet and the decking it will cover, let both dry to just tachy and roll the 2x4 out to the edge, working out bubbles as we go. It makes a smooth deck and can last for decades. The sheet also makes cheap pond linings. Let it age before putting fish in. Good luck Bill Dorsett recorder2 wrote: > I am looking for a surfacing material for the (flat) roof of the sun > room (16' x 64') I am building to be used as an observation deck and to > sleep out at night which is tough and completely waterproof. > > I just read about modified bitumen which, though expensive, would seem > to do the job. However, how environmentally friendly is this stuff??!! > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 00:04:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA18329 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 00:04:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA27911; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 00:00:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:56:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27388 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:56:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27384 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:56:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.pitt.edu (pgh313.icubed.com [208.157.23.13]) by post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cispo-7.2.2.2) ID ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:56:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <368EF86D.F430B02F@pop.pitt.edu> Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 23:56:15 -0500 From: AO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IAQKibbey@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation: Miraflex & uneven rafters. References: <4ac2c178.368db973@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5478 Hi David, Thank you very much for the information. I had considered using Miraflex for essentially for the reasons you listed (thought it might be safer), but there are gaps that would need to be filled in. We suspect that the addition we are insulating was built in the 1800's. It was constructed out of scrap lumber. The beams are not even, nor are they standard widths apart. Some of them are 19", some are 25" apart. The ceiling was built out of what looks like an old tongue and groove floor. The ceiling has been covered with wallboard. If we use Miraflex, can we open the batts to use the loose Miraflex to fill the gaps caused by the uneven rafter placement? If not, is there a another safe and effective material that we could use to fill these gaps? Would it be better to use a different product altogether? I didn't know for sure about the health risks of fiberglass. Covering the attic without leaving any of the gaps mentioned above was the primary reason we'd considered unfaced fiberglass over Miraflex. (Those were the only two materials we'd considered before joining this list.) The information you provided that Miraflex's sleeve does not act as a vapor barrier was useful. It was actually a question we'd not yet had answered; I couldn't tell from their web site. We'd already stapled down plastic sheets between the joists for a vapor barrier in anticipation of using unfaced fiberglass. If we were to choose to insulate the roof instead of the attic floor, and Miraflex isn't appropriate for that application, what material/s would be good to use? A. Ohrman "Amy of the Thousand Questions" There will be more... thanks for your indulgence. ;-) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 00:04:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA18331 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 00:04:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA27917; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 00:00:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:56:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27424 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27415 for ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.pitt.edu (pgh313.icubed.com [208.157.23.13]) by post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cispo-7.2.2.2) ID ; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:57:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <368EF898.1D64AFF6@pop.pitt.edu> Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 23:56:57 -0500 From: AO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IAQKibbey@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation: Attic storage. References: <4ac2c178.368db973@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5479 I appreciate your additional comments about the problems with using an unconditioned space for storage. However, my things are stored in an unconditioned space now, and not close by. The problem with this place is that there is almost no storage on the premises. So, I would still like to use this attic space, if it would be safe. I definitely intend to insulate. So using an attic for storage where there is exposed fiberglass insulation would be a health concern, because the glass fibers would contaminate the living area. Did you mean to suggest that the use of Miraflex between the rafters, in view and open to the air, with boards across the rafters for storage is safe? You don't recommend an unconditioned attic for storage, but don't seem to rule it out. Is the conditioning for human health or in the interest of the things being stored? How serious a concern is this? Right now, the attic is well-ventilated. Would it work if we used insulated the floor with fiberglass (or even Miraflex or another insulation... assuming most any insulation material is not benign), covered it over somehow, left the existing ventilation, and did not try to "condition" the area? Also, is it possible to use a loose fill and then cover it? My friend feels that blowing it in is not a realistic option. If we insulated the roof and closed the ventilation openings to the outdoors, could we get by with no conditioning? Because the ventilation openings are closed, I imagine that condensation and mold would be more of a concern. Why is superheat bad? Is attic dust a serious concern, and is there anything to be done about it? IAQKibbey@aol.com wrote: > Since you are considering using the attic for storage, the connection between > the attic and the living space below would allow for contamination from > standard fiberglass whenever the hatch is opened or stored items are put in or > taken out. All the more reason for using Miraflex here. I do not recommend > using unconditioned attic spaces for storage because of the likelihood of > condensation, mold, super heating in summer, and infiltration of attic dust to > the air of the rooms below. Attics used for storage should be insulated at > the roof above, not ventilated with openings to the outdoors and should be > minimally conditioned with regard to temperature and humidity. > > David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant > > In a message dated 1/1/1999 9:28:48 PM, nore@pop.pitt.edu writes: > > > >One area of of special concern that perhaps should effect whether to go > >with the fiberglass, is exposure to glass fibers or dust, because I may > >turn the attic into a usable space. (As the insulation is to be > >installed in a well-ventilated (unfinished) attic, I don't feel as > >concerned about the health aspects of the gassing out of chemical > >binders and formaldehyde, etc.) I'm seriously considering putting the > >attic to use by installing an attic ladder and laying a few boards > >across the rafters for storage. The insulation would be in the open, > >i.e. not sealed, enclosed or covered. > > > >People would be going back and forth between the insulated area and the > >main living area (kitchen access). And the living area is extremely > >small at about 256 sq. ft., so any loose fibers entering the area would, > >per sq. in., be more concentrated. > > > >I'd also like to know the pros and cons of different materials for attic > >insulation (such as health & safety, environment, R-value, convenience, > >cost, etc). > > > >I may be reached by email, or by voice mail message at 412-734-8311 (24 > >hrs). If you leave a number, I can return the call. > > > > > >A. Ohrman > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 00:35:52 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA18531 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 00:35:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA00454; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 00:31:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 00:28:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA00115 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 00:27:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (fN3UpSG7I8RSfFWqSmdBVuELkQrCX0wG@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA00111 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 00:27:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (kK5hSLixSjGK2bSOxdFiFQOP62+Iog5p@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA06281; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:28:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA22192; Sat, 2 Jan 1999 23:28:25 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <368EFFA9.BD799760@gs.net> Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 23:27:05 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-bls40 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: AO CC: IAQKibbey@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation: Miraflex & uneven rafters. References: <4ac2c178.368db973@aol.com> <368EF86D.F430B02F@pop.pitt.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5480 Since you have installed a vapor barrier it really does not matter which insulation that you choose to use. If this were my house I would not bother with DYI on the insulation. Would just get a cellulose insulation blown in if your ceiling can handle the weight. Plan on about 15% settling so plan on having enough blown in to give you the final depth needed. The main reason that I suggest you blow in the insulation is that you mention the odd distances between the joyce..... If they were all 16 o.c. or 24 o.c. I would have agreed that you should use the miraflex.... It is an excellent product with few side problems that you would have with standard fiberglass. Steve AO wrote: > Hi David, > > Thank you very much for the information. I had considered using Miraflex for > essentially for the reasons you listed (thought it might be safer), but there are > gaps that would need to be filled in. We suspect that the addition we are > insulating was built in the 1800's. It was constructed out of scrap lumber. The > beams are not even, nor are they standard widths apart. Some of them are 19", > some are 25" apart. The ceiling was built out of what looks like an old tongue and > groove floor. The ceiling has been covered with wallboard. > > If we use Miraflex, can we open the batts to use the loose Miraflex to fill the > gaps caused by the uneven rafter placement? If not, is there a another safe and > effective material that we could use to fill these gaps? Would it be better to > use a different product altogether? > > I didn't know for sure about the health risks of fiberglass. Covering the attic > without leaving any of the gaps mentioned above was the primary reason we'd > considered unfaced fiberglass over Miraflex. (Those were the only two materials > we'd considered before joining this list.) > > The information you provided that Miraflex's sleeve does not act as a vapor > barrier was useful. It was actually a question we'd not yet had answered; I > couldn't tell from their web site. We'd already stapled down plastic sheets > between the joists for a vapor barrier in anticipation of using unfaced > fiberglass. > > If we were to choose to insulate the roof instead of the attic floor, and Miraflex > isn't appropriate for that application, what material/s would be good to use? > > A. Ohrman > > "Amy of the Thousand Questions" There will be more... thanks for your > indulgence. ;-) > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 02:56:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA19625 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 02:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA04586; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 02:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 02:48:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA04324 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 02:48:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.ihug.co.nz (tk2.ihug.co.nz [203.29.160.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA04320 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 02:48:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ihug.co.nz (p8-max9.chc.ihug.co.nz [209.79.136.8]) by smtp2.ihug.co.nz (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08890 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 20:49:00 +1300 Message-ID: <368F2043.207A446A@ihug.co.nz> Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 20:46:11 +1300 From: "Dave P." Reply-To: dp@ihug.co.nz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: ja,en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re. Attic insulation & R-values Content-Type: text/plain; charset=x-user-defined Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5481 I'd be interested to hear the comments of others on the influence of convection currents on loose fill insulation in attics. According to a report from the Oak Ridge National Lab (  http://www.ornl.gov/~vhk/success/loosefill.html  ), R-values of some loose fill fiberglass insulations can fall by as much as a factor of 2 in cold climates due to convection currents set up between the warm ceiling and the cold attic space. The same report also mentions the benefits of various covering systems in order to minimize these losses. Are many people with superinsulated houses in Europe and N. America  using some form of covering system to minimize this problem, and if so, what are the most popular materials being used? There is also mention of a new test procedure being developed by an ASTM Committee  to more accurately reflect the performance of attic insulation under realistic conditions. Does anyone know if this procedure has been approved yet? Look forward to all replies,   Dave P. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 09:30:31 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22181 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:30:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11741; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:26:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:22:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11514 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:22:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11510 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:22:16 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id NKYDa01223 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:22:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:22:07 EST To: Greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation/cellulose Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5482 I am considering using SIPs on my next project, rather than trusses and blown whatever, because in my existing house I used trusses and they blew in 14-16" of insulation -- there was SO much air infiltration that wind was blowing through the ceiling--- although I know the foam in the SIPs is not particularly green, my current experience has me shell shocked --- if you use trusses and batts, what happens to the holes between the batts where the webs of the trusses are ??? Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 10:01:38 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22358 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:01:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12703; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:57:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:53:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12426 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:53:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12422 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:53:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA12343 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:54:24 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:54:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa2-p23.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.23]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA12571 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:53:59 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sa2-p23.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.23] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:53:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <368F83F1.C6285B64@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 09:51:29 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation/cellulose References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5483 Linda, Blown in what? All you say is "in my existing house I used trusses and they blew in 14-16" > of insulation" GrenSheltr@aol.com wrote: > > I am considering using SIPs on my next project, rather than trusses and blown > whatever, because in my existing house I used trusses and they blew in 14-16" > of insulation -- there was SO much air infiltration that wind was blowing > through the ceiling--- although I know the foam in the SIPs is not > particularly green, my current experience has me shell shocked --- if you use > trusses and batts, what happens to the holes between the batts where the webs > of the trusses are ??? Linda Lloyd > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 10:08:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22392 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:08:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13414; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:04:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:00:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13027 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:00:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13023 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:00:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA12769 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:01:23 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:01:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa2-p23.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.23]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA13932 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:00:58 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sa2-p23.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.23] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:00:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <368F8593.F9F555EB@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 09:58:27 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re. Attic insulation & R-values References: <368F2043.207A446A@ihug.co.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5484 Dave P. wrote: > > I'd be interested to hear the comments of others on the influence of > convection currents on loose fill insulation in attics. > > According to a report from the Oak Ridge National Lab ( > http://www.ornl.gov/~vhk/success/loosefill.html ), R-values of some > loose fill fiberglass insulations can fall by as much as a factor of 2 > in cold climates due to convection currents set up between the warm > ceiling and the cold attic space. Dave, My experience with fiberglass would certainly reinforce the Oak Ridge findings. I had a thermographer tell me once that on a windy day he could barely detect glass in the walls. Cellulose on the other hand was not nearly as effected. When I try to use the link you provided for the report, I get a Not Found Error message. Could you check it? Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 10:15:15 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22451 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:15:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14011; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:11:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:07:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13534 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:07:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13530 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:07:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-51.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.51]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:49:21 -0500 Message-ID: <368FB285.25CE@cyberzone.net> Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 10:10:13 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Minimum house size References: <1.5.4.32.19990101191507.006c8374@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> <368D736E.170F@cyberzone.net> <368D707C.171A2CA6@atlasinc.on.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5485 Neil wrote: > You refer to 'program'. Is there a book that covers the 'design' approach that you are > describing? I'm not familiar with home design methodologies and if you have any > suggestions (fresh from experience) some references would be great. Neil, I do have a number of books about designing houses, and they're in storage right now so I'm at a loss! A Pattern Language, mentioned in other posts, is one of those timeless resources that stands way above the crowd, and I'd suggest looking at Taunton Press' publications. When I mentioned 'program', I was talking about the program of spaces, i.e. list of rooms and functions. We like to say that in order to define the solution to the design problem, you first have to define the problem. That's what I meant by programming. How many people are in the family? How many bedrooms do you need? Do you do much entertaining? Is food preparation space central to family life or only background? There are literally a thousand questions one could ask, each answer neither right nor wrong, just needing a value judgement and an answer. Questions about greenness and sustainability also fit into the mix, with additional value judgements. One could back into the process by asking "how much do you want to spend", since that usually rules out worlds of possibities; actually, it always seems to work both ways simultaneously, like an equation with hundreds of variables- change any one and watch the dominoes of cause and effect and value judgement fall! It's important to spend as much time thinking about the idea of "house" and what it means to you and your family deep down, as much as how big a space needs to be or what the kitchen cabinets will be. My own experience with house design has been very valuable, both as a designer and a client. My family's original goal was to buy an existing smallish house closer to my work. But due to the imminent pitter patter of little feet in the house (my father in law), we decided on very short notice to design a new house, one with an in-law suite. A closer look at the available housing stock suitable for an addition came up short. This is where the "time" element becomes a wonderful thought clarifier! CADD is wonderful as a drawing medium, since it allows the size of a project to grow effortlessly, and so ours did, as we sketched furniture layouts, paced off rooms with a tape measure, and talked about the use of this space and that space and how we would live our lives, and of course, what it looked like. This is where "money" becomes another clarifying agent, since raw size translates into raw dollars. After the initial cost shock wore off, we sharpened our pencils and went back to work. The bottom line is that we cut 33% out of the house by scrutinizing and evaluating every square inch of space (CADD is good in the other direction, too). The in-law suite became a first floor bedroom and bath. And overall, it will be a better house for having gone through this process. I only wish I could have made it smaller still! Living out of a box in someone else's house is another clarifying element! This is long-winded, but I hope it helps. And it is connected to the threads of sprawl, insulation, experience and relations between trades, which may become clearer as time permits. As of today, the design is done (i.e. at a stopping point), the contract is signed, but the ground just gets harder and harder... Time to have discussions with the builder about things like vapor barriers, air sealing, insulation, and heating plants. They say some good comes of everything... Happy designing! Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 10:15:15 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22452 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:15:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14013; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:11:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:07:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13519 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:07:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13508 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:07:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-51.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.51]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 09:49:14 -0500 Message-ID: <368F77B2.5D6A@cyberzone.net> Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 05:59:14 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IAQKibbey@aol.com CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberglass batts - health issues/vapor barriers References: <4ac2c178.368db973@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5486 David, You mentioned that Miraflex comes R19 and R25. Can you suggest an R-11 or so product? The current regs in our area require R-11 in the floor below the basement in my new house, and the builder is planning to use unfaced fiberglass batts. We will all be itching and scratching and coughing in no time, not to mention the constant drift of particles onto every object in the basement. Stapling plastic or Tyvek up is rather unappealing, not to mention the royal pain every time I need to run a new wire! My eventual goal is to insulate the basement walls with extruded polystyrene and then attach furring strips and gyp board, and get rid of the batts, and maybe I can negotiate with the building official and leave the batts out on condition that the walls get done. If I could at least suggest an alternative that the builder can use for his other houses, maybe there will be some postive gain. Thanks. Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 11:34:38 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23102 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:34:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA16987; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:30:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:26:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16614 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16606 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:25:58 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 7YQAa05340; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:25:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:25:57 EST To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com, Greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation/cellulose Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5487 In a message dated 99-01-03 09:55:53 EST, ashcreek@dreamscape.com writes: << Linda, Blown in what? All you say is "in my existing house I used trusses and they blew in 14-16" > of insulatio >> cellulose ----- had air blowing in through all ceiling edges - ceiling is T-111 and through light fixtures - needless to say don't wanna repeat that by using the same system again ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 11:43:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23191 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:43:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17435; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:37:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:33:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17115 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:33:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17111 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:33:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA18045 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:34:27 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 11:34:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa2-p59.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.59]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA21733 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:38:49 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sa2-p59.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.59] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 10:38:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <368F8E74.3ADA7C9@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 10:36:20 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Attic Insulation & R values Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5488 Dave, I tried your link one more time and third time was a charm. The Oak Ridge annoncement mentions only fiberglass but is titled "Thermal Performance of Loose-fill Insulation in Attics", leading one to believe all loose-fills are equal. My guess is that if they even tested cellulose, it wouldn't be nearly as effected by convective loss as the glass. The density of the fiber pack and the size of the fiber itself, are totally different and perform very differently in most circumstances. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 12:15:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA23501 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:15:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18905; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:11:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:07:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18589 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:07:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18581 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:07:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA20627 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:08:24 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:08:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa4-p51.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.179]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA13289 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:07:59 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sa4-p51.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.179] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 12:07:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <368FA35B.C28E0C25@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 12:05:31 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation/cellulose References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5489 Linda, It sounds like the problem may be one of poor sealing details, infiltration around the insulation, not convection through the material. SIP's will only improve this situation if they are detailed properly themselves. I'm not a representative of the cellulose manufacturers association or anything, I just wonder if the fault is with the installation or the material. Clarifying these sort of questions helps to educate us all, if infiltration through cellulose is a real problem I want to know. The devil is in the details. Chuck Chuck PS. I get your reply to the greenbuilding list, there is no need to reply to both. > cellulose ----- > > had air blowing in through all ceiling edges - ceiling is T-111 and through > light fixtures - needless to say don't wanna repeat that by using the same > system again ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 15:34:04 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA25390 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:34:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27060; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:29:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:25:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26485 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:25:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26456 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:24:53 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 5RWSa23181; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:24:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:24:27 EST To: nore@pop.pitt.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation: Miraflex & uneven rafters. Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA26459 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5490 Miraflex and irregular joist spacing: 1. Tearing apart Miraflex batts to fill in uneven gaps would be difficult, since the fibers are twisted and interlocked quite tenaciously. This would defeat the purpose of one of the product's main advantages: adhesion of fibers without binders. I don't think this would be a good idea. 2. As others have suggested, blown-in cellulose would be another safe material likely for this application (when you say "uneven beams or rafters," I assume you mean "joists"). This brings up two additional areas of concern: A. Discussion of the safety of cellulose has not touched upon the fact that the raw material used is recycled newspaper containing inks, dyes, solvents and recycling chemicals--as well as borates and other additives used for fireproofing and bug resistance. There have been cases of severe health reactions from this material, particularly if badly installed. If the attic is sealed tight with drywall and penetrations are sealed, this may be a moot point, as would be the use of standard fiberglass. However, if you plan to provide an access hatch and go in and out frequently for storage of articles, then the attic air is infiltrated into the rooms below. Hot summer days can heat up these chemical components and amplify their outgassing. B. Discussion of cellulose as inherently producing an air barrier can be misleading. Wet blown-in cellulose is a tightly packed monolithic substance which fills all gaps and reduces drafts and leakage, however it is not a legitimate "air barrier." Dry blown-in cellulose is even less of an air barrier. Airtight drywall technology or a continuous surface of some other air barrier material such as perforated foil building paper, Tyvek, etc., can serve as an air barrier. Polyethylene placed individually between joists over the ceiling does not seal at the edges of joists and is not a continuous air barrier, nor is it a continuous vapor retarder. Two coats of latex paint provide a degree of continuous vapor retarder over airtight drywall which acts as an air barrier. Another approach might be to spray over the entire attic side of the joists and ceiling a liquid like “86001 Seal,” low emission water- based vapor barrier by Palmer Industries, Inc. The purpose of an air barrier is to prevent exfiltration of hard-won conditioned air, to prevent infiltration of unwanted chemical or particulate contamination, and to prevent air movement from driving forces like pressure or temperature differentials, wind, etc. Where no "driver" can penetrate, no "flow" occurs. Many proponents of wet-blown cellulose have suggested that with an air barrier on the outside of the building, tightly blown cellulose in the cavities and latex paint on the interior drywall, there is no need for a vapor retarder because there is no driver to produce vapor flow from one side of the structure to the other. The purpose of a vapor retarder is to prevent the flow of water vapor or other gaseous vapors through the structure--for prevention of condensation, mold, dry rot, and other moisture related problems. The physics can be quite complicated and varies considerably from climate to climate and season to season. Before considering changing the vented attic to a conditioned, unvented space, be aware that the entire science of this building system easily can be thrown into imbalance by changing envelopes, flows, and conditions. Many detailed factors come into play. Are there connections between the attic and the walls? Are there connections between the attic and other interstitial spaces, like openings around a fireplace chimney, soffited ceiling spaces, built-in hutches, rooms or porches with different ceiling levels, sheds, dormers, or other building features? Where is the thermal envelope of this building? Where is the vapor envelope of this building? Where is the air barrier envelope of this building? What pressure differentials exist? What is the climate here? Prevailing wind? What is the humidity situation here? What kind of heating/cooling and ventilating system is used and do any of its components run through the attic? Are there any recessed lights or other ceiling penetrations that have been retrofitted in this older building? Is there an attic exhaust fan or turbine vents? What have we left out? Or, as Joe Lstiburek says, "We don't have enough information yet." If the thermal/vapor/air envelope is moved to the roof from the ceiling below the attic, a number of other issues come into play and must be dealt with in a complete wholistic approach. If the vapor barrier is in the wrong place, you get "sweating," water damage and mold. If the envelope is flawed or incomplete, you get energy loss and possible pressure differential problems. With a forced air HVAC, if you don't add return and supply air connections to the newly conditioned space, other thermal, comfort and moisture problems can occur. Without getting into that here, some possible scenarios are: rigid foam insulation can be installed outside the roof decking, with roof membrane applied over it for the most complete protection against thermal bridging at the rafters; insulation (Miraflex, standard fiberglass, Icynene, rigid foam or other insulations) can be installed between the rafters inside the attic (with different climate considerations for air space vs. no air space, vapor barrier, air barrier, etc.); radiant barrier and or light colored roof material can be used to further reduce solar heat gain. Someone else pointed out, the issue of attic insulation can open up a whole bunch of issues, making the idea of "Do It Yourself" less and less attractive as you consider the possible long range implications. Yet another person on this list has wisely pointed out frequently, "We can't afford to rush." David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone: 510-841-1039 fax: 510-841-1008 iaqkibbey@aol.com -------------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 1/2/1999 8:58:32 PM, nore@pop.pitt.edu writes: >Hi David, > >Thank you very much for the information. I had considered using Miraflex >for essentially for the reasons you listed (thought it might be safer), but >there are gaps that would need to be filled in. We suspect that the addition we >are insulating was built in the 1800's. It was constructed out of scrap lumber. >The beams are not even, nor are they standard widths apart. Some of them are >19," some are 25" apart. The ceiling was built out of what looks like an old >tongue and groove floor. The ceiling has been covered with wallboard. > >If we use Miraflex, can we open the batts to use the loose Miraflex to >fill the gaps caused by the uneven rafter placement? If not, is there a another >safe and effective material that we could use to fill these gaps? Would it be better >to use a different product altogether? > >I didn't know for sure about the health risks of fiberglass. Covering >the attic without leaving any of the gaps mentioned above was the primary reason >we'd considered unfaced fiberglass over Miraflex. (Those were the only two >materials we'd considered before joining this list.) > >The information you provided that Miraflex's sleeve does not act as a vapor >barrier was useful. It was actually a question we'd not yet had answered; > I couldn't tell from their web site. We'd already stapled down plastic sheets >between the joists for a vapor barrier in anticipation of using unfaced >fiberglass. > >If we were to choose to insulate the roof instead of the attic floor, and >Miraflex >isn't appropriate for that application, what material/s would be good to >use? > > >A. Ohrman > >"Amy of the Thousand Questions" There will be more... thanks for your >indulgence. ;-) > > >___________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 15:34:04 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA25391 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:34:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27058; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:29:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:25:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26473 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:25:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26453 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:24:51 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id WSWSa06037; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:24:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <68feb1d.368fd1f6@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:24:22 EST To: nore@pop.pitt.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation: Attic storage. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5491 See comments interspersed below, with *******: In a message dated 1/2/1999 8:58:32 PM, nore@pop.pitt.edu writes: >I appreciate your additional comments about the problems with using an >unconditioned space for storage. However, my things are stored in an >unconditioned space now, and not close by. The problem with this place >is that there is almost no storage on the premises. So, I would still like to >use this attic space, if it would be safe. I definitely intend to insulate. > *******I understand your dilemma, since I too can never find enough space for storage. The problem is not so much that the objects are stored in an unconditioned space as that the unconditioned space becomes connected to the living space every time the hatch is opened and objects transported in or out. >So using an attic for storage where there is exposed fiberglass insulation >would be a health concern, because the glass fibers would contaminate the living >area. Did you mean to suggest that the use of Miraflex between the rafters, in >view and open to the air, with boards across the rafters for storage is safe? > *******I do believe, that if you use Miraflex as described above, you would minimize the health risk from exposure to attic air. However this would not remove the additional threats from dust, dust mites, rodents, possible past use of pesticides, exposed asphalt roofing felt, other contaminants, or exposure to outdoor pollutants like wood fire smoke or pollen inside the vented attic. >You don't recommend an unconditioned attic for storage, but don't seem >to rule it out. Is the conditioning for human health or in the interest of the things >being stored? How serious a concern is this? Right now, the attic is well- ventilated. > *******"Conditioning" simply refers to air that has been heated in winter, cooled in summer, dehumidified or in any other way controlled for purposes of human comfort. My concern is not for the objects being stored, though certainly if they become moldy, are a fire hazard, or otherwise deteriorate in the attic, they can affect human health. My concern is for the exposure of the rooms below to attic contaminants whenever the access is opened for moving objects into or out of storage. Ventilation does not remove pollutants, it only dilutes them. Particulate and dust can actually get stirred up by air movement. Another pathway in this scenario is that objects stored in the attic and then are brought into the house will import dust, mold and odors from the attic. >Would it work if we used insulated the floor with fiberglass (or even Miraflex >or another insulation... assuming most any insulation material is not benign), >covered it over somehow, left the existing ventilation, and did not try >to "condition" the area? Also, is it possible to use a loose fill and then >cover it? My friend feels that blowing it in is not a realistic option. > *******Covering the floor is only part of the problem. See above. See previous message about cellulose for issues of possible toxicity and dust hazard. Why is blowing, especially wet-blowing, insulation not an option? As for storing objects under these conditions, that depends on whether freezing or superheating them will cause damage and if you are willing to risk the damage. Don't forget that in many climates attics can reach temperatures in excess of 150 degrees F. in the sun and well-below freezing in winter. >If we insulated the roof and closed the ventilation openings to the outdoors, >could we get by with no conditioning? Because the ventilation openings >are closed, I imagine that condensation and mold would be more of a concern. > *******See comments in previous email concerning complications of messing with building envelopes and whole-building systems. If the attic is truly sealed thermally and with regard to air and vapor movement, then conditioning it minimally is energy-efficient and well worth the bother. >Why is superheat bad? Is attic dust a serious concern, and is there anything >to be done about it? *******Chemically unstable building materials, insulation, adhesives, roofing materials, stored items, possible pesticide residue, and even the terpenes and resins in old wood will offgas increasingly with higher temperatures. Higher temperatures produce expanded air in an attic and even a "well-ventilated" attic may actually become positively pressurized to an extent beyond its capacity to exhaust through the vents--thereby sending hot contaminated air into the house below through building cavities, penetrations and permeable surfaces. Formaldehyde, asphalt and other common contaminants have greater interreactions at higher temperatures and higher humidities. Dust mites thrive in higher temperatures and higher humidities. If the attic is well sealed from the living spaces in the house, is well ventilated and is not used for storage access and egress, the only issue is excessive solar gain and cooling load. If the attic is used for storage, a pathway is created. One good way to reduce superheating in the attic is to install a radiant barrier under the rafters, with an air space above and below the barrier. This prevents solar radiation from passing through the roof to the building materials of the roof and ceiling, which in turn heats the air by convection and conduction. Radiant barrier can be perforated foil (allowing to be an air barrier, but not vapor retarder) or unperforated foil (creating a vapor retarder which must be considered in reference to moisture conditions, climates, etc.). The shiny side, if one-sided, should be facing down, not up. Dust will gather on the top surface and will stop the radiant barrier effect of shiny foil surfaces. Shiny foil facing on rigid foam insulation conducts heat to the adjacent material, so is not effective as radiant barrier. Significant energy savings, as well as IAQ benefits, can often be accomplished with a properly installed attic radiant barrier. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone: 510-841-1039 fax: 510-841-1008 iaqkibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 15:36:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA25424 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:36:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA27384; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:32:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:29:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26874 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:28:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.43]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26868 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:28:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.pitt.edu (pgh356.icubed.com [208.157.23.56]) by post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cispo-7.2.2.2) ID ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:29:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <368FD31F.F5F16942@pop.pitt.edu> Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 15:29:21 -0500 From: AO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: GrenSheltr@aol.com, bylleet@juno.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation/cellulose. [SIP's?] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5492 What does SIP stand for? (I'm new at this.) GrenSheltr@aol.com wrote: > I am considering using SIPs on my next project, rather than trusses and blown > whatever, because in my existing house I used trusses and they blew in 14-16" > of insulation -- there was SO much air infiltration that wind was blowing > through the ceiling--- although I know the foam in the SIPs is not > particularly green, my current experience has me shell shocked --- if you use > trusses and batts, what happens to the holes between the batts where the webs > of the trusses are ??? Linda Lloyd > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 16:03:06 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA25857 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:03:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28708; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:59:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:55:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28181 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:54:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.43]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28173 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:54:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.pitt.edu (pgh356.icubed.com [208.157.23.56]) by post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cispo-7.2.2.2) ID ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:55:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <368FD93F.A0B8BA64@pop.pitt.edu> Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 15:55:28 -0500 From: AO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: GrenSheltr@aol.com, bylleet@juno.com Subject: GBlist: Attic Insulation: Loose insulation, migration & air quality References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5493 If you've followed my thread, you know that I hope to use my small unfinished attic for storage, with an attic ladder access from the living area (kitchen). What might be the air quality and health issues of loose fill or blown-in cellulose, and other materials that are loose or blown-in, in this situation? I would think the actual material (because it's loose) would more easily track or otherwise migrate between the two areas. Less important to me at this time is: What are the differences between loose fill and blown-in insulation? Just method of application / convenience / cost? Or are there other, more significant considerations? GrenSheltr@aol.com wrote: [Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation: Miraflex & uneven rafters. ] > In a message dated 99-01-02 23:58:32 EST, you write: > > << The > beams are not even, nor are they standard widths apart. Some of them are > 19", > some are 25" apart. >> > > an excellent arguement for loose fill or blown in --- Linda ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 16:03:21 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA25884 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:03:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28748; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:59:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:55:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28234 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:55:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.43]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28225 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:55:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.pitt.edu (pgh356.icubed.com [208.157.23.56]) by post-ofc06.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cispo-7.2.2.2) ID ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 15:55:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <368FD957.9A0DC2B7@pop.pitt.edu> Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 15:55:51 -0500 From: AO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: GrenSheltr@aol.com, bylleet@juno.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation: Miraflex & uneven rafters. [Miraflex OK to cut open?] References: <13d5067b.368f7e9a@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5494 Thanks for your response. Miraflex is indeed a new form of fiberglass. I just prefer not make assumptions about all their reasons for stuffing it into a sleeve. The only reason I know why they do it, is for compression and ease of use. Just making sure there's no other purpose being served that I might've defeated by pulling out the filling. I hadn't seen the issue of cutting the sleeve to "make it fit" on their site. GrenSheltr@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 99-01-02 23:58:32 EST, you write: > > << considered unfaced fiberglass over Miraflex. >> > > I believe you will find that miraflex is just covered fiberglas ??? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 19:55:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA28814 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:55:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10813; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:51:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:47:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10500 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:47:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA10496 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:47:38 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id WMRGa25631; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:45:54 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <9fb90279.36900f42@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:45:54 EST To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberglass batts - health issues/vapor barriers Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5495 Dan, My opinion? Since regulations are only for minimums, there is no harm in insulating a floor to R-19. I still would go with Miraflex, held in place between the floor joists with nylon netting. (I am assuming you mean under the floor ABOVE the basement.) All of the R-11 batts using alternatives to formaldehyde binder are still standard fiberglass fibers. Even batts encased in polyethylene sleeves may still allow fibers to escape at the places where they are cut--though certainly preferable to open batts. There are issues with dust and with oils used to eliminate dust in mineral wool batts. Stapling polyethylene or Tyvek up under the joists may provide other complications with regard to moisture or air flows, depending on other conditions in your whole house system. Basement is best waterproofed and/or insulated outside foundation walls; capillary breaks and vapor retarder with optional rigid insulation under slab; or vapor retarder over exposed soil; unfaced insulation under floors above basement. These conditions vary with climate and conditions. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone: 510-841-1039 fax: 510-841-1008 iaqkibbey@aol.com -------------------------------- In a message dated 1/3/1999 7:09:20 AM, dpharazim@cyberzone.net writes: >David, >You mentioned that Miraflex comes R19 and R25. Can you suggest an R-11 >or so product? The current regs in our area require R-11 in the floor >below the basement in my new house, and the builder is planning to use >unfaced fiberglass batts. We will all be itching and scratching and >coughing in no time, not to mention the constant drift of particles onto >every object in the basement. Stapling plastic or Tyvek up is rather >unappealing, not to mention the royal pain every time I need to run a >new wire! My eventual goal is to insulate the basement walls with >extruded polystyrene and then attach furring strips and gyp board, and >get rid of the batts, and maybe I can negotiate with the building >official and leave the batts out on condition that the walls get done. > >If I could at least suggest an alternative that the builder can use for >his other houses, maybe there will be some postive gain. >Thanks. >Dan Harazim >Canterbury, CT > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 21:34:53 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29726 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:34:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA14187; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:30:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:26:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA13851 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:26:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from wtpprod1.wtp.net (wtpprod1.wtp.net [206.26.76.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA13843 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:26:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.wtp.net (wtprl-1.wtp.net [208.153.173.36]) by wtpprod1.wtp.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA16671 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 19:28:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990104022952.006ada28@wtp.net> X-Sender: lexy@wtp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 19:29:52 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alexis Adams Subject: GBlist: Danish oil Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5496 Greetings, We are in the process of building our home of recycled, reused and just plain new materials. We've installed salvaged fir floors, and our second floor (also of salvaged fir) is supported by salvaged 4" by 12" fir beams. At the recommendation of a friend, we decided to treat our floors, beams and window trim with Watco Danish Oil. However, after doing some research on the Web, I am wondering whether we should look into other products. I visited the home page for Tried & True oil finishes and read that their Danish oil has 60% less solvents than Watco. Our goal is to use products that are as environmentally friendly as possible; however, since we are on a limited budget, we can't afford to spend too much to be green. We also would like to give our flooring a relatively hard surface to minimize wear and tear; however, we do not want to use a polyeurethane-based product. Are we crazy to use Danish oil of any brand on our flooring? Does it provide enough protection against wear and tear? Are there any other recommendations out there regarding finishes for our floors? Does anyone have experience with Tried & True's products? And, perhaps most importantly, does anyone have qualms about and/or kudos for Watco Danish oil? Thanks in advance for your opinions and feedback. Happy new year to all. Best, Alexis Adams. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 3 22:31:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA00341 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:31:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16105; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:27:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:23:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15802 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:23:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from leo.pcisys.net (leo.pcisys.net [207.76.102.240]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15796 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:23:11 -0500 (EST) From: moxvox@pcisys.net Received: from [208.202.107.230] (skipper230.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.107.230]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) via SMTP id UAA26359 for ; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 20:23:54 -0700 (MST) env-from (moxvox@pcisys.net) Message-Id: <199901040323.UAA26359@leo.pcisys.net> X-Sender: moxvox@pcisys.net (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:34:01 -0800 To: Greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation/BIBs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5497 Hi all--With regard to insulating attics in general, what about fiberglass in blown-in-blankets (BIBs)? From what I understand, it's supposed to seal better than batts and settle less and be more moisture-resistant than cellulose. I've read they're using binder-free fiberglass in some applications, and a regional lumberyard is beginning to promote it for residential use in Idaho and Utah. Anyone have any experience with this?.................Sara. Sara Mock Rabbit tracks, deer tracks, moxvox@pcisys.net what do we know. www.moxvox.com/straw.html /\ _____----------------^^^/\/ /\^^^^^----______________________ G Snyder ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 4 00:39:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA02090 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 00:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA21670; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 00:34:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 00:29:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA20983 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 00:29:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA20978 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 00:29:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.179] (208.254.3.179) by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:37:34 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation/cellulose. [SIP's?] Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 21:34:15 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1296694242-4235866@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5498 It stands for Structural Insulated Panel. The have also been called foam core panels, stressed skin panels, stress skin panels, etc. Most have expanded polystyrene glued glued between two sheets of oriented strand board. They provide great insulation, high level of tightness and are fast to assemble. Of course, the material cost is higher. That's the nutshell. The are used only for new construction or additions. Bruce S >What does SIP stand for? (I'm new at this.) ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 4 01:34:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA02609 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 01:34:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA23535; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 01:30:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 01:25:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA23238 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 01:25:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from .www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA23234 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 01:25:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip15.ivnet.net [206.101.73.175]) by .www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12695; Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:14:35 -0800 Message-ID: <36905DE3.148A71A@ivnet.net> Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 22:21:23 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexis Adams CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Danish oil References: <1.5.4.32.19990104022952.006ada28@wtp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5499 Alexis Adams wrote: > > we decided to treat our floors, beams and > window trim with Watco Danish Oil. > > I visited the home page for Tried & True oil finishes and read that their > Danish oil has 60% less solvents than Watco. , we do not want to use a polyeurethane-based product. > > Does it provide enough protection against wear and tear? Watco will provide almost no protection against wear and tear. It will provide a warmer appearance under some finishes. For floor finishes, the idea is to make the wear layer be the finish, not the wood. Therefore you need a transparent film with good hardness and abrasion resistance. Tough combination of qualities. Most of the products which are tough and wear well are not very good with respect to off-gassing nasty stuff. There are quite a few reccomendations in the archives. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 4 05:54:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA04340 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 05:54:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA29444; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 05:50:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 05:46:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA29164 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 05:46:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA29160 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 05:46:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-209.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.209]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 05:28:14 -0500 Message-ID: <3690C6F4.7097@cyberzone.net> Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 05:49:40 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IAQKibbey@aol.com CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberglass batts - health issues/vapor barriers References: <9fb90279.36900f42@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5500 David, Thanks for your wealth of info on this topic. My challenge on this new house project is working with and educating a builder on better insulation techniques. This company was very well recommended by several people, so I didn't grill them on the ins and outs of construction, assuming that they, as builder, know how to build. Plus, they own the lot that I really really wanted! For instance, they don't install vapor barriers under the slab, but they do pipe around it for future radon mitigation. Tyvek, an air barrier, is typically called "vapor barrier" around here, sort of like calling a cat a dog- after all, they're both furry and have 4 legs (the animals, not the membranes). They also blow fiberglass into the attic, but don't install a vapor barrier, although they do install poly on the walls! "That's the way we always do it, and the building official approves it, and we've never had any complaints." Obviously, if he approves it, then it must be ok, right? So I get to be thorn in their side through this whole process, and wait for the sound of the cash register ringing up extra costs. I'll keep my one little candle lit to stave off the darkness. Seeing all the other little candles out there is a comfort... Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 4 09:26:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06353 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:26:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06016; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:22:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:18:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05700 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:18:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.monumental.com (mail1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05696 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:18:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by mail1.monumental.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA18988 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:13:48 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:18:39 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation: Attic storage. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5501 990104 Sympathizing with the Pitt person's storage in-attic-quacies, I am fascinated by the comments regarding using shiny foil to foil attic superheating via roof radiant energy transfer, esp if no airspace was needed above (perforated). If perforated can be afixed to the underside of the roof sheathing, so much the better since no dust can accumulate & degrade the reflective qualities of it. Here is another brand of booze for this cocktail: how about putting that foil underneath the roofing material itself, either from inception or on a re-roof job? Is there hope for the storage deprived packrats of central VA? Many thanks in advance for your comments on this subject and I hope it is a useful subthread for all. jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 4 09:46:55 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org ([209.67.217.1] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06587 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:46:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06940; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:42:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:38:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06601 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:38:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06595 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:38:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.3.220.136]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.08) id 8813200 ; Mon, 04 Jan 1999 09:50:24 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990104093311.006a7204@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 09:33:11 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: Attic Insulation/cellulose In-Reply-To: <199901040529.AAA20997@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5502 Linda Lloyd wrote: >I am considering using SIPs on my next project, rather than trusses and blown >whatever, because in my existing house I used trusses and they blew in 14-16" >of insulation -- there was SO much air infiltration that wind was blowing >through the ceiling--- although I know the foam in the SIPs is not >particularly green, my current experience has me shell shocked --- if you use >trusses and batts, what happens to the holes between the batts where the webs >of the trusses are ??? Linda Lloyd I agree with Chuck Hinckley, it sound like an air sealing problem. You might want to consider using a local company (Lancaster, PA) on your next project, Comfort Home. They specialize in air sealing and insulation work. The situation you describe is realatively easy to fix in residential projects because drywall is used for the ceilings. In commercial projects with drop ceilings the air movement is much more difficult to control. Anyone have any experience with creating an air barrier in a commercial building where wood trusses are used (peak roof) with fiberglass batts inbetween the trusses and a drop ceiling below? Have tried to use poly but it just gets torn to shreads. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 4 09:55:57 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06711 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:55:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07495; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:51:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:48:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07121 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:47:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07117 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca (be417@freenet3 [134.117.136.23]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id JAA00975; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:48:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id JAA15893; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:48:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:48:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901041448.JAA15893@freenet3.carleton.ca> From: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #432 Reply-To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5503 >Alexis Adams wrote: [snipped] >> Danish Oil. Does it provide enough protection against wear and >> tear? Hello Alexis; Short answer: No. Longer (and likely useless) Answer: It seems somewhat peculiar that we take a hard-wearing material like wood and then install some chemical stew thin film over it (like varnish) to act as the wear layer. Ultimately, this thin film wears out and requires labour/resource -intensive removal and replacement... via a process which is disruptive to normal daily life. In traditional Japanese homes, the scuzz layer from the bathwater is used for daily damp-mopping. (Note that they do not bathe in the same utilitarian fashion that Occidentals do. First wash and then bathe) The body oils that are found in the scuzz layer of the bath water are apparently of a suitable concentration so as to produce the "Mop and Glow" look that all Good Housekeepers desire. It should also be noted that street shoes are never worn into the house proper so as to not bring in the grit that is destructive to wood finishes. As a result, the traffic of slippered feet serves to burnish the wood to a low-key, low-lustre, satin finish. I'm not suggesting that we all start bathing in Japanese fashion but rather, perhaps take a closer look at how one might avoid the chemical stew finishes altogether and let the wood be the wear layer, as it should be. For a start, it'd probably be a good idea to look at how the wood itself is finished. It is possible to achieve a highly polished surface by using *sharp* blades during planing and then use scrapers and burnishers which slice-off the remaining protuding fibres instead of using sandpaper, which tends to fuzz-up the wood surface. It's also probably not a good idea to use open-pored woods like red oak etc ? -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 4 09:59:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06750 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:59:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07844; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:55:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:51:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07462 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:51:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07456 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:51:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.3.220.136]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.08) id 8832300 ; Mon, 04 Jan 1999 10:03:58 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990104094645.006a7204@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 09:46:45 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: BIB Insulation System In-Reply-To: <199901040529.AAA20997@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5504 Sara Mock wrote: >Hi all--With regard to insulating attics in general, what about fiberglass >in blown-in-blankets (BIBs)? From what I understand, it's supposed to seal >better than batts and settle less and be more moisture-resistant than >cellulose. I've read they're using binder-free fiberglass in some >applications, and a regional lumberyard is beginning to promote it for >residential use in Idaho and Utah. Anyone have any experience with >this?.................Sara. My understaning is that the BIB system is used for wall cavities. It is simply blown fiberglass that is held in place with a netting attached to the inside surface of the studs. It should seal better than batts because it completely fills the cavity. As far as settling this sounds like an ad for the BIB system, settling is a function of the proper installation. Any blown wall insulation will settle if not installed at the proper density or with the proper technique. Greater moisture resistance does sound right given the nature of the materials. In my experience the price is similar to wet-spray cellulose (about 50% to 100% more than batts). No need to use the BIB system in attics, the blown fiberglass will be kept in place by gravity. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 4 10:35:47 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07409 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:35:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10520; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:31:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:27:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10181 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:27:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from leo.pcisys.net (leo.pcisys.net [207.76.102.240]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10176 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:27:17 -0500 (EST) From: moxvox@pcisys.net Received: from [208.202.107.168] (ginger168.cos.pcisys.net [208.202.107.168]) by leo.pcisys.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) via SMTP id IAA19273 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 08:28:02 -0700 (MST) env-from (moxvox@pcisys.net) Message-Id: <199901041528.IAA19273@leo.pcisys.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:38:09 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Danish oil Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5505 Hi Alexis et al--I don't know the chemical makeup of danish oil, but I have some anecdotal experience. The last time I used it on a desk I refinished, I had to let it offgas for over 6 months before I could tolerate it in the room with me. FWIW, I consider myself midrange as far as being chemically sensitive, though I'm getting more and more able to notice the immediate connection between formaldehyde and upper respiratory discomfort. We're also going to be using salvaged fir floors, and had decided on low-VOC waterbased polyurethane for many of the same reasons you mention. I'm curious as to why you've ruled that out. Thanks...............Sara. Sara Mock Rabbit tracks, deer tracks, moxvox@pcisys.net what do we know. www.moxvox.com/straw.html /\ _____----------------^^^/\/ /\^^^^^----______________________ G Snyder ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 4 11:16:57 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08227 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:16:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13534; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:12:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:09:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13057 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:08:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (JcYNFHDoMEG1+Y2iRXBCZGK7J0gufdvY@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13048 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:08:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (h8FI81+GDDDw/1q9eoFNP2PLr8brVZqx@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA10126; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:09:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA13356; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:09:32 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3690E772.716C4F82@gs.net> Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 10:08:19 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-bls40 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net CC: IAQKibbey@aol.com, greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberglass batts - health issues/vapor barriers References: <9fb90279.36900f42@aol.com> <3690C6F4.7097@cyberzone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5506 Here in the land of the three foot water table... we do not have basements, but we understand that installing a layer of visquine....( a plastic vapor barrier) is a necessity. I would not build a house anywhere without a barrier under the slab. While radon is not a problem here, I know from other places that I have lived that it is a real and serious problem. This is especially so in tightly built houses in areas with high radon levels. Radon like water / condensate on a slab is a just a fact of life. Spend the $20 and have it installed when you build. Just remember to have them put in the sump for water and fan for the radon. Steve Dan and Pam wrote: > David, > Thanks for your wealth of info on this topic. My challenge on this new > house project is working with and educating a builder on better > insulation techniques. This company was very well recommended by > several people, so I didn't grill them on the ins and outs of > construction, assuming that they, as builder, know how to build. Plus, > they own the lot that I really really wanted! > > For instance, they don't install vapor barriers under the slab, but they > do pipe around it for future radon mitigation. Tyvek, an air barrier, > is typically called "vapor barrier" around here, sort of like calling a > cat a dog- after all, they're both furry and have 4 legs (the animals, > not the membranes). They also blow fiberglass into the attic, but don't > install a vapor barrier, although they do install poly on the walls! > "That's the way we always do it, and the building official approves it, > and we've never had any complaints." Obviously, if he approves it, then > it must be ok, right? So I get to be thorn in their side through this > whole process, and wait for the sound of the cash register ringing up > extra costs. I'll keep my one little candle lit to stave off the > darkness. Seeing all the other little candles out there is a comfort... > > Regards, > Dan Harazim > Canterbury, CT > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 4 11:32:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08813 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14645; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:28:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:24:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14138 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:24:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (K3JilFHi9GKvB8h5IH8F/NALSbFs9bJm@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14134 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:24:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (CtB5qzLFaDzSFLXiXMByomCtc1en7Icq@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA11080; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:24:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA14338; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 10:24:56 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3690EB0E.A248C298@gs.net> Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 10:23:42 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-bls40 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexis Adams CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Danish oil References: <1.5.4.32.19990104022952.006ada28@wtp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5507 Watco oil is great on furniture...where you need a seal. Exterior grade is great for places like decks where it seals against the elements. As far as a walk area of of an interior floor. It does a good job of sealing and toning the wood color. This is a great prelude to a wax finish. You know wax as in Bruce or Johnson's floor wax. High maintenance = beautiful finish. You need to use the wax or you will just be wasting time energy and money putting on the oil finish. Other options for floor finish are orange shellac. Then varnish (lots of differences in varnish finishes so you need to look at several products not all are created equal) or wax. Either way you will end up with a natural look that does not look as though you had painted on a layer of plastic on your floor. Steve Alexis Adams wrote: > Greetings, > > We are in the process of building our home of recycled, reused and just > plain new materials. We've installed salvaged fir floors, and our second > floor (also of salvaged fir) is supported by salvaged 4" by 12" fir beams. > > At the recommendation of a friend, we decided to treat our floors, beams and > window trim with Watco Danish Oil. However, after doing some research on the > Web, I am wondering whether we should look into other products. > > I visited the home page for Tried & True oil finishes and read that their > Danish oil has 60% less solvents than Watco. Our goal is to use products > that are as environmentally friendly as possible; however, since we are on a > limited budget, we can't afford to spend too much to be green. We also would > like to give our flooring a relatively hard surface to minimize wear and > tear; however, we do not want to use a polyeurethane-based product. > > Are we crazy to use Danish oil of any brand on our flooring? Does it provide > enough protection against wear and tear? Are there any other recommendations > out there regarding finishes for our floors? Does anyone have experience > with Tried & True's products? And, perhaps most importantly, does anyone > have qualms about and/or kudos for Watco Danish oil? > > Thanks in advance for your opinions and feedback. Happy new year to all. > > Best, > Alexis Adams. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 4 12:29:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09904 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:29:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18934; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:24:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:20:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18268 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:19:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18258 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:19:55 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 7OFa015297; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:19:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 12:19:25 EST To: hardwick@ordinary.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation: Attic storage. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5508 Jim, My understanding of the process is this. If you've ever cooked in an aluminum pan or touched an aluminum gutter in the hot sun, you know the effect of high conductivity between aluminum and the materials it touches. The reason for an air space on BOTH sides of an effective radiant barrier in attic applications is to prevent conduction of heat, while reflecting the rays of solar energy back outward. Sun does not heat air in attics. It heats roofing material, roof structure, ceiling joists and insulation itself via radiant energy. These materials then heat the air via convection and conduction. A radiant barrier located just under the rafters will reflect the sun's heat back outward while the air space above and below interrupts conduction of heat from touching surfaces. This is why aluminum foil incorporated in any part of the roofing membrane, whether on rigid insulation, beneath or above decking, because it is touching other materials it will conduct heat to the area below. Though better than no barrier, it is not as effective as when placed below the rafters with air on both sides. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone: 510-841-1039 fax: 510-841-1008 iaqkibbey@aol.com ------------------------------------------------ In a message dated 1/4/1999 6:18:23 AM, hardwick@ordinary.com writes: >990104 > >Sympathizing with the Pitt person's storage in-attic-quacies, I am >fascinated by the comments regarding using shiny foil to foil attic >superheating via roof radiant energy transfer, esp if no airspace was >needed above (perforated). If perforated can be afixed to the underside >of >the roof sheathing, so much the better since no dust can accumulate & >degrade the reflective qualities of it. > >Here is another brand of booze for this cocktail: how about putting that >foil underneath the roofing material itself, either from inception or on >a >re-roof job? > >Is there hope for the storage deprived packrats of central VA? Many thanks >in advance for your comments on this subject and I hope it is a useful >subthread for all. > >jh > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 4 15:34:06 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13248 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:34:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00782; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:29:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:25:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00227 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:24:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00215 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:24:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.170]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4579200 ; Mon, 04 Jan 1999 14:09:30 -0800 Message-ID: <36912354.7F6AA3E7@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 12:23:48 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alexis Adams CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Danish oil References: <1.5.4.32.19990104022952.006ada28@wtp.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5509 I've looked a lot into flooring finishes but have little to offer. I agree with Rob about no finish as the best finish (our history of floor finishing is relatively recent - a little sand swept through the house was also a form of maintenance I appreciate. However we do seem to be slaves of custom. Some comments I can make: wax does not offer any real hardness or water resistance it simply makes floors look nice and offers some temporary resistance to spills. Beeswax should have some antibacterial properties which could be a benefit if it were not for the cost. I've only found two options for water resistance and hardness - water based polyurethane's (I like the bona-kemi products) - tung oil BOTH ARE TOXIC BOTH ARE CONSIDERED NON-TOXIC WHEN CURED the major differences are: product origin, types of toxicity (choose your poison), the length of time involved in curing and the ease of application and to some degree appearance. My preference for tung oil finishes are for the floor to be sealed with shellac then carefully finished with pure tung oil (can be heated to ease application) - the finish looks remarkably like a plastic finish with fewer bubbles and a darker tone. As your floors are salvaged material I would be tempted to use the polyurethane as a seal for what is already contained in the flooring. Remember that the refinishing (sanding) raises 'more dust' so to speak than the finishing. ps on the watco thing - if the finish is to be an oil based finish my preference is to go to basic ingredients, very difficult to know what is used in many prepared products and the solvent levels and type are generally not very acceptable. best John Alexis Adams wrote: > Greetings, > > We are in the process of building our home of recycled, reused and just > plain new materials. We've installed salvaged fir floors, and our second > floor (also of salvaged fir) is supported by salvaged 4" by 12" fir beams. > > At the recommendation of a friend, we decided to treat our floors, beams and > window trim with Watco Danish Oil. However, after doing some research on the > Web, I am wondering whether we should look into other products. > > I visited the home page for Tried & True oil finishes and read that their > Danish oil has 60% less solvents than Watco. Our goal is to use products > that are as environmentally friendly as possible; however, since we are on a > limited budget, we can't afford to spend too much to be green. We also would > like to give our flooring a relatively hard surface to minimize wear and > tear; however, we do not want to use a polyeurethane-based product. > > Are we crazy to use Danish oil of any brand on our flooring? Does it provide > enough protection against wear and tear? Are there any other recommendations > out there regarding finishes for our floors? Does anyone have experience > with Tried & True's products? And, perhaps most importantly, does anyone > have qualms about and/or kudos for Watco Danish oil? > > Thanks in advance for your opinions and feedback. Happy new year to all. > > Best, > Alexis Adams. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 4 15:35:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13354 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:35:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01001; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:31:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:27:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00469 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:27:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00447 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:27:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-7-36.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.7.36]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA27847; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 15:27:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <369125FB.D4A0E64@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 15:35:07 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IAQKibbey@aol.com CC: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberglass batts - health issues/vapor barriers References: <9fb90279.36900f42@aol.com> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2D9ECA7EB10FDF870436480B" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5510 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2D9ECA7EB10FDF870436480B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dan, Want to confirm something here. You are saying that putting up a vapour barrier on the ceiling of a basement i.e. LAYER 1 - Under side of Floor + joists LAYER 2 - Vapour Barrier LAYER 3 - Insulation Is not a great idea and will complicate air flow and vapour movement in the house. Are you saying this is a bad idea because it is a bad idea to try and treat your basement like it is part of the outside? Do you think this would cause dampness between Layer 1 and Layer 2? Or is there a different issue? Neil IAQKibbey@aol.com wrote: > > Dan, > > My opinion? Since regulations are only for minimums, there is no harm in > insulating a floor to R-19. I still would go with Miraflex, held in place > between the floor joists with nylon netting. (I am assuming you mean under > the floor ABOVE the basement.) > > All of the R-11 batts using alternatives to formaldehyde binder are still > standard fiberglass fibers. Even batts encased in polyethylene sleeves may > still allow fibers to escape at the places where they are cut--though > certainly preferable to open batts. There are issues with dust and with oils > used to eliminate dust in mineral wool batts. > > Stapling polyethylene or Tyvek up under the joists may provide other > complications with regard to moisture or air flows, depending on other > conditions in your whole house system. Basement is best waterproofed and/or > insulated outside foundation walls; capillary breaks and vapor retarder with > optional rigid insulation under slab; or vapor retarder over exposed soil; > unfaced insulation under floors above basement. These conditions vary with > climate and conditions. > > David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant > 1618 Parker Street > Berkeley, CA 94703 > phone: 510-841-1039 > fax: 510-841-1008 > iaqkibbey@aol.com > -------------------------------- > In a message dated 1/3/1999 7:09:20 AM, dpharazim@cyberzone.net writes: > > >David, > >You mentioned that Miraflex comes R19 and R25. Can you suggest an R-11 > >or so product? The current regs in our area require R-11 in the floor > >below the basement in my new house, and the builder is planning to use > >unfaced fiberglass batts. We will all be itching and scratching and > >coughing in no time, not to mention the constant drift of particles onto > >every object in the basement. Stapling plastic or Tyvek up is rather > >unappealing, not to mention the royal pain every time I need to run a > >new wire! My eventual goal is to insulate the basement walls with > >extruded polystyrene and then attach furring strips and gyp board, and > >get rid of the batts, and maybe I can negotiate with the building > >official and leave the batts out on condition that the walls get done. > > > >If I could at least suggest an alternative that the builder can use for > >his other houses, maybe there will be some postive gain. > >Thanks. > >Dan Harazim > >Canterbury, CT > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" --------------2D9ECA7EB10FDF870436480B Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="nspiegel.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Neil Spiegel Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="nspiegel.vcf" begin:vcard n:Spiegel;Neil x-mozilla-html:TRUE adr:;;;Toronto;Ontario;M5R 3E9;Canada version:2.1 email;internet:nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca title:Outsourcing Technical Project Manager tel;fax:416-534-7888 tel;work:416-534-9792 note:I suggest the purple, I think it looks wonderful on you. Oh no, no, no, I should say I prefer the yellow. x-mozilla-cpt:;65535 fn:Neil Spiegel end:vcard --------------2D9ECA7EB10FDF870436480B-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 4 17:00:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14924 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:00:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06619; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:56:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:52:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA06107 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:52:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from minden.netsurf.de (privat.kkf.net [212.63.32.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06101 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 16:52:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from privat.kkf.net (mi-dial69.privat.kkf.net [212.63.37.69]) by minden.netsurf.de (8.8.8/8.8.3) with SMTP id WAA25387 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:50:53 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199901042150.WAA25387@minden.netsurf.de> Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:52:15 +0100 From: "Alexander.Neumann" Reply-To: "Alexander.Neumann" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Danish oil X-Mailer: AK-Mail 3.0b [ger] (unregistered) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA06104 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5511 > - tung oil What is that? What I was recommended to use is a kind of oil that´s supposed to harden the surface. Does anyone have experience with this concerning content, toxicity and curing time? The only Alternative I see at the moment would be a waterbased acrylic varnish. - Alex N. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 4 17:53:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15692 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:53:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA10273; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:48:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:44:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09518 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:44:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlas.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [209.250.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09512 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:44:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from timex.pathcom.com (ts41l36.pathcom.com [209.250.145.93]) by atlas.pathcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA13875 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:46:50 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901042246.RAA13875@atlas.pathcom.com> From: timex@pathcom.com To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 17:46:05 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Loose fiberglass removal Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5512 It has just come to my concious attention that there is a whole huge pile of loose fiberglass in one corner of my basement. What would be the best way to get rid of that? Are there people who do that kind of thing for fiberglass like they do with asbestos? I am extremely sensitive to this stuff, so this is of great importance to me. Thanks, all . . . marilyn Cybercrone http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ "The archer strikes the target - partly by pulling and partly by letting go" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 4 18:23:42 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA16166 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:23:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12262; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:17:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:13:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA11943 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:13:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11939 for ; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:13:42 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id SSGFa06036; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:08:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <93b83a7.369149f2@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 18:08:34 EST To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Cc: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberglass batts - health issues/vapor barriers Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5513 In a message dated 1/4/1999 12:30:05 PM, nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca writes: >Hi Dan, ***************(I assume you mean David) DK > >Want to confirm something here. >You are saying that putting up a vapour barrier on the ceiling of a basement >i.e. > >LAYER 1 - Under side of Floor + joists >LAYER 2 - Vapour Barrier >LAYER 3 - Insulation *************Now I'm really confused! Let's number the layers pictorially as below: _______________________________ Floor__________________________ Subfloor_______________________ Insulation in joist space Bottom of Joist__________________ Vapor Retarder on bottom of joist___ > >...is not a great idea and will complicate air flow and vapour movement in >the house. ***********I actually said the above scenario "...MAY provide other complications with regard to moisture or air flows, depending on other conditions in your whole house system." I did not really declare this as a bad idea in all cases. I know the flooring industry often insists on this kind of application or else they will not guarantee their flooring against moisture damage (no matter what is going on in the basement or crawl space below). By way of explanation, one problem might be that a "sandwich" of vapor barriers is created if a layer between the finish flooring and the subflooring has limited permeability. Often asphalt building paper or polyethylene is used here. The varnish or other finish on the surface of the flooring may provide as least some vapor inhibiting characteristics. Sometimes insulation batts with paper or foil facings which act as vapor retarders are installed facing upward in the joist space. These conditions each may in some degree create a trap for the moisture which inevitably gets into the space between the joists and the top of the finished floor. Trapped moisture creates possible condensation, mold conditions, dry rot and attraction to termites or other wood boring insects. If the crawl space or basement is unconditioned air (outdoors with reference to the house) there may be a number of elements like forced air ducts, plumbing pipes, vents, flues or other devices which penetrate this sandwich creating ideal conditions for condensation where cold air meets warm air in the presence of moisture. Other conditions which may come into play are: - stairways or hatch entries into the basement or crawl space, openings between this sub area and cavity areas leading to other parts of the house above creating pathways for air flows or moisture flows into or out of these cavities. - leaks in return ducts which can suck damp cold air into the HVAC system. - leaks in HVAC supply ducts which can blow heated air in winter or cooled air in summer into cavities or unwanted spaces, positively pressurizing them with reference to the rooms of the building. - leaks or improper detailing in laundry dryer exhaust vents. - leaks or improper detailing in downdraft stove vent systems. - leaks or sweating in plumbing pipes for hot/cold water and/or waste pipes. - leaks in gas pipe joints and fittings. - wind-driven rain entering the "sandwich" area through faults in siding, waterproofing, air vents located inside joist space, etc. > >Are you saying this is a bad idea because it is a bad idea to try and treat >your basement like it is part of the outside? > ***************No, only that if the basement is "outside" with reference to the rooms of the house, then moisture should be stemmed at the source (ground, foundation walls, etc.) rather than at the joists. And that all other conditions should be optimized to allow the inevitable moisture to "dry out" or "dry in" or both, without being inhibited by extra layers of vapor retarder which may trap vapors in harm's way. Basements can be either conditioned as "indoors" or unconditioned as "outdoors." But the approach should be thoroughly consistent with regard to all the details and potential flows (wanted and unwanted). >Do you think this would cause dampness between Layer 1 and Layer 2? >Or is there a different issue? ***********Was I clear on this? I've seen insulation which has become sopping wet from condensation caused by air conditioning ducts in summer and by heating ducts in winter. I've seen water puddling on top of joist-mounted polyethylene where plumbing pipes have been sweating or leaking inside the joist space. I've seen massive moisture damage from inadvertently disconnected laundry dryer vent tubes in crawl spaces. I've seen serious moisture damage from backed up or broken sewer pipes. I've seen toilets with improperly fit wax seals which deposit quite a mess all over whatever is below them. I prefer to keep the joist space able to breathe and open for maintenance. Finished basement ceilings for conditioned basement rooms are another issue I realize I am in a rush because I have a lot to do today, so I don't have time to investigate this point further, but I guess we all get the picture, huh? My point is essentially that the building is a complete system and no one element is able to be separated from the rest without some effect. The invisible flows of pressure, temperature, moisture, and vapor are busily at work in all buildings--sometimes for good and sometimes for evil! > >Neil > > >IAQKibbey@aol.com wrote: >> >> Dan, >> >> My opinion? Since regulations are only for minimums, there is no harm in >> insulating a floor to R-19. I still would go with Miraflex, held in place >> between the floor joists with nylon netting. (I am assuming you mean under >> the floor ABOVE the basement.) >> >> All of the R-11 batts using alternatives to formaldehyde binder are still >> standard fiberglass fibers. Even batts encased in polyethylene sleeves may >> still allow fibers to escape at the places where they are cut--though >> certainly preferable to open batts. There are issues with dust and with oils >> used to eliminate dust in mineral wool batts. >> >> Stapling polyethylene or Tyvek up under the joists may provide other >> complications with regard to moisture or air flows, depending on other >> conditions in your whole house system. Basement is best waterproofed and/or >> insulated outside foundation walls; capillary breaks and vapor retarder with >> optional rigid insulation under slab; or vapor retarder over exposed soil; >> unfaced insulation under floors above basement. These conditions vary with >> climate and conditions. >> >> David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant >> 1618 Parker Street >> Berkeley, CA 94703 >> phone: 510-841-1039 >> fax: 510-841-1008 >> iaqkibbey@aol.com >> -------------------------------- >> In a message dated 1/3/1999 7:09:20 AM, dpharazim@cyberzone.net writes: >> >> >David, >> >You mentioned that Miraflex comes R19 and R25. Can you suggest an R-11 >> >or so product? The current regs in our area require R-11 in the floor >> >below the basement in my new house, and the builder is planning to use >> >unfaced fiberglass batts. We will all be itching and scratching and >> >coughing in no time, not to mention the constant drift of particles >onto >> >every object in the basement. Stapling plastic or Tyvek up is rather >> >unappealing, not to mention the royal pain every time I need to run >a >> >new wire! My eventual goal is to insulate the basement walls with >> >extruded polystyrene and then attach furring strips and gyp board, and >> >get rid of the batts, and maybe I can negotiate with the building >> >official and leave the batts out on condition that the walls get done. >> > >> >If I could at least suggest an alternative that the builder can use >for >> >his other houses, maybe there will be some postive gain. >> >Thanks. >> >Dan Harazim >> >Canterbury, CT >> > >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >> Environmental Building News and Oikos >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >-- >Neil Spiegel >V: 416-534-9792 >F: 416-534-7888 >E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca >"Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying >about your own?" > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 5 13:48:59 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01526 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:48:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01928; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:44:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:38:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00409 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:38:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (cdrom.nahbrc.org [38.201.56.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00399 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:38:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM by rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id aa079690 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 07:38:41 -0500 From: "Peter Yost" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 07:48:09 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: (Fwd) green building incentive - New York X-Info: NT Mail Server Message-Id: <15384156201893@NAHBRC.ORG> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5514 I am forwarding this post from a private email--any light that gb listers can shed on this issue would be appreciated. "Rene Lapham referred me to you regarding a tax credit incentive bill that is currently(possibly) being drafted for New York State. I am looking to get information on this bill if in fact it is moving forward. I have heard that language is being drafted out of the New York State Dept. of Taxation - and would like to confirm. please send me as much information on this issue - contacts would be appreciate along with background information if any." Thank you. Randi S. Smith New York State Community Action Association 518-238-1955 x22 Peter Yost pyost@nahbrc.org 301-249-4000 x542 http://www.nahbrc.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 5 13:49:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01542 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:49:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02039; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:44:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:40:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00660 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:39:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00642 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:39:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-06-26.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.129.26]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA03936; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:12:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:14:46 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE3894.38528540.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Marcus Sheffer'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: Attic Insulation/cellulose Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:42:00 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5515 This type of an issue seems to come up every few months on the list and then is forgotten. Blown Fibreglass is designed to be of such a low-density that its rated R-value is possible to achieve when there is no airflow. Same as Cellulose and rockwool. Natural convection currents (ie driven by the temperature difference of air on either side of the the insulation) can be set up in improperly installed low-density insulation. Cellulose, and to a lessor degree rockwool, are higher density (they have more mass per volume) and are less susceptible, but still susceptible. Properly installed blown-ins will work, improperly installed will not work. Cellulose is slightly less susceptible than fibreglass in attics. Blown into walls dense-pack cellulose (at 4 pcf or so density) is quite a bit denser than glass batts and fills many cracks and openings -- so it can be much less susceptible to intallation errors causing problems Any enclosure system needs an air barrier to stop the air from blowing THROUGH the system, and a wind barrier to stop penetration and washing of the exterior layers by wind. Cellulose does allow less air to flow through than fibreglass (a meterial property termed air permeance), but both stop so little air as to be a complete joke -- they miss the required performance level for a reasonable air barrier by a factor of maybe 10 to 100. Although this has been known for some time (decades), continued questions have prompted several tightly controlled tests, some of them on complete houses built in large labs and in the field by tract builders -- all independent studies have shown this to be true--cellulose may be less air impermeable than glass batts but both are so useless the difference does not matter. So, provide an air barrier and the difference between glass and cellulose is not really significant. Of course, if the house is terribly leaky (say more than 5 ACH@50 Pa), and this may apply to some new houses in some parts of the US, and most 30 yr+ old frame homes everywhere, dense-pack cellulose in walls may help. I do not have proof, but judging by the material properties, loose blown in the attic (usually 1.5 to 3 pcf if cellulose) will have little effect on the attic airtightness. Re: the second air control requirement, forced convection from the exterior, this can be handled in a number of ways. The attic should have screens over the vents that prevent wind from blowing into the attic. If the air speed is that high in the attic, then it will blow snow and even rain in, causing other problems. We use special foam vents to provide ventilation from the soffits to the attic space and then fill all the rest of the truss heel with blown-in. I suspect most problems around this junction are due mostly to badly detailed air barrier interfaces from wall to roof. In a wall systems I would recommend a housewrap or wood sheathing to control wind washing. On Monday, January 04, 1999 9:33 AM, Marcus Sheffer [SMTP:msheffer@cyberia.com] wrote: > Anyone have any experience with creating an air barrier in a commercial > building where wood trusses are used (peak roof) with fiberglass batts > inbetween the trusses and a drop ceiling below? Have tried to use poly but > it just gets torn to shreads. Apply a layer of 3/8 roofing ply to the underside of the rafters, tape the joints, foam the penetrations. This also acts as a reliable structural diaphragm and provides a nice surface to affix service cabling etc. Cost? Maybe 50 cents per square foot. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 5 13:57:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01706 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:57:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04175; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:52:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:46:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02205 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:45:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (A4K9tXno2S+ya/2Bkr8QOOp3FdepvHu6@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02175 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:45:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (W8zEfp+5whbG5J9BeLe2K7akp8j6Y38i@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA28327; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:03:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA19642; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:03:39 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36918ECA.E39DBEB1@gs.net> Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 22:02:18 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-bls40 (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Alexander.Neumann" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Danish oil References: <199901042150.WAA25387@minden.netsurf.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA02184 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5516 Tung oil comes from Tung berries. It is harvested from tung trees which are grown in Mississippi of all places. the berries are boiled to get the oil. Basically you put the oil on in coats waiting for each to dry = polymerize before the next coat is applied. There are various additives that are put into the oil to make it form longer poly chains (makes for a harder finish). Sometimes manufactures put in silicon to dull the finish (matte). This seems to be popular. I would not drink the stuff or as they say in the movies I would have to kill yah... and it will kill yah... so keep it out of your mouth and eyes. Curing time. Depends upon temp and humidity. You will find that cure times get progressively longer as more coats are applied. This is primarily due to the fact that only one side is curing. The first coats slightly penetrate the wood so it really is curing on two sides of the film. Basically when it is dry to the touch you can put on progressive coats. When you get to the point where it stays wet to the touch for 24 hours... well you can stop. This might take 5-6 coats to get to this point. Expect to spend 3-4 days doing the application before you are finished... this is not a one day treatment if you want it to hold up. Steve "Alexander.Neumann" wrote: > > - tung oil > What is that? > What I was recommended to use is a kind of oil that´s supposed to harden the surface. > Does anyone have experience with this concerning content, toxicity and curing time? > The only Alternative I see at the moment would be a waterbased acrylic varnish. > - > Alex N. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 5 13:59:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01764 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:59:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04865; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:54:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:48:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02705 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:47:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02667 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:47:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000023275; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:11:36 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990105041433.006cfafc@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 22:14:33 -0600 To: GrenSheltr@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Attic Insulation/cellulose Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5517 >I am considering using SIPs on my next project, rather than trusses and blown >whatever Linda, I've used SIPs twice now, in a timberframe addition I built more than a dozen year ago and this year (98) for a cabin. My latter experience was not good. So #1 I would pick your supplier very carefully #2. Unless you design beams to support the panels from underneath, I would not use them again on the roof because there is too much potential heat loss/air infiltration through whatever the SIPs use for structural strength. For the walls however, SIPs are great, especially if you want a quickly assembled shell and your design is simple. I would get someone experienced with SIPs to go over the design. It takes two or three people to erect them and it is better if they've had some experience in doing so. Some companies will send out a rep to help. I would buy panels without the windows and doors precut however and get a long blade for a reciprocating saw to do it yourself. That way you get them precisely where you want them. Using SIPs takes more pre-planning than stick construction though--eg wiring, any penetrations and such. Our cabin, not yet really tight around the doors and windows and with the plumbing and venting holes still open hovers around 32 degrees without heat in the zero temperatures we're experiencing now. And it takes the smallest of wood stoves to bring it up to a reasonable temperature. That said, as others have commented. The devil IS in the details and stick built is fine if your build very carefully and most out there don't. Care must be taken with SIPs as well. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 5 14:01:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01800 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:01:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05569; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:56:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:50:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03374 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:49:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix2.interkan.net (root@unix2.interkan.net [12.13.79.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03320 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:49:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from interkan.net (pm3-mhk78.interkan.net [12.13.79.108]) by unix2.interkan.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/jpw@interkan.net) with ESMTP id JAA11767; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 09:16:03 -0600 Message-ID: <368EFF4B.EE818A32@interkan.net> Date: Sat, 02 Jan 1999 23:25:32 -0600 From: Tamara & Bill Dorsett Reply-To: dorsett@interkan.net Organization: Health Options X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: Renewable News Network , Schawe@aol.com, "Ross M. Donald" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Tubular Skylights References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5518 Ross, like you we've designed around standard 46"/36" x 76" stock sliding glass door size lites for sunrooms. Recently however, I've compared the prices of standard fixed lite over awning window combinations with what it cost for me to do the work of framing, triming etc. of our sliding door lites and I can't make a compelling case for my clients to pay me to do it. Theirs are clad and mine need the long cycle of repainting; I think mine are tight but not as tight as their cladding seals; mine need supplemental ventilation but theirs vents in all weather and locks down as tight as my fixed stick built units. From now on, I think I will recommend a real factory standard - a store bought window. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > You said:"(All my air heating collectors are in standard 4' x 8' modules; > all my passive solar is around 46"/36" x 76" stock sliding glass door size > lites.)" > __________________________________________________________________________ > Ross: Without making it a blatant advertisement, can you simply decribe > the above? Are they commercially available for what kind of applications? > Thanks you for considering my request. Jorg Ostrowski > > _ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 5 14:01:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01875 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:01:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05567; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:56:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:50:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03377 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:49:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03345 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:49:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-201.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.201]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 05:04:39 -0500 Message-ID: <369211B9.1451@cyberzone.net> Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 05:25:18 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IAQKibbey@aol.com, nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberglass batts - health issues/vapor barriers References: <93b83a7.369149f2@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5519 David and Neil, Where do you get the time to respond to these queries, and thanks much! And I'm sorry for not being clear enough in my original posts. I originally mentioned Tyvek (air barrier) BELOW the floor joists and insulation, not a vapor barrier, and only as a means of keeping insulation bitties out of my life. Clearly from what you describe, even an air barrier can have unintended consequences, so I'm still left with using something like Miraflex or finding a membrane that is both air and vapor permeable. My eventual goal is to have the basement part of the heated envelope, where it really belongs, so I'm hoping to get rid of the batts altogether. I was pricing rigid insulation yesterday - ouch! My brick wall of "first cost" remains. I'm having a discussion today with the building official about vapor barriers, the lack thereof, and insulation, and will keep you all posted on the outcome. Thanks again for the info and comraderie (sp?), and the real world experience, and please, don't spend any more time on this thread! Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 5 14:03:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01944 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:03:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05827; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:57:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:51:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA03918 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:51:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA03885 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 13:51:18 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id VJNZa05514; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:51:15 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <63055dfe.36917013@aol.com> Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 20:51:15 EST To: alex@ebuild.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Minimum house size Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5520 Alex: Few towns are likely to out and out dictate large house sizes. That would expose them to all sorts of legal liabilities. Instead they stipulate large frontage and lot size, restrict land availability in numerous ways and mandate costly infrastructure for any development. The result is lot costs that are exhorbanant. Zoning and planning officials know that banks are only willing to loan about 30% of a mortgage for land costs. Few people that can afford to build without a bank involved build tiny houses on expensive lots. Thus expensive lots insure expensive houses. Towns get their wealthy person ghettos without the risk of being sued. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 5 14:20:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02241 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:20:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08619; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:15:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:11:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08066 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:11:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08061 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:10:59 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 4PMCa01433 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:10:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:10:56 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Minimum house size Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5521 In a message dated 99-01-05 13:55:04 EST, FUnger@aol.com writes: << Zoning and planning officials know that banks are only willing to loan about 30% of a mortgage for land costs. >> not exactly right FNMA (secondary market) guidelines indicate that in most areas of the country - the value of the land cannot exceed 30% of the total value of land and house. If I do an appraisal with land higher than 30% I have to attach a big explanation as to why so that the underwriter MAY - not will - waive that guideline. e.g total market value of $200000 - land value should not exceed $60000 total market value of $150000 - land value should not exceed $45000 -causes lots of problems especially when somone has bought lots of acres Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 5 14:33:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02442 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:33:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10119; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:28:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:25:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA09752 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:25:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA09745 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:25:01 -0500 (EST) From: JamesAWise@aol.com Received: from JamesAWise@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id NLMYa23181 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:02:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <81a749d9.36919cef@aol.com> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:02:39 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: On Perceptual Space Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 79 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id OAA09749 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5522 Following up on Bruce Sullivan's note on Perceptual Space, and his reference to the excellent little article that originally appeared in Energy Source Builder: The "AXES" system described in the article is actually a short-hand version of Isovist Theory, developed orignally by Prof. Michael Benedickt (Arch, UT Austin) in his Master's Thesis in the mid-70's. The Isovist is the space that is visible for an observer from a given point, and can be closely statistically modeled. The original work was extended by myself and my students at the University of Washington in the mid-80's in contract work for NASA, where we showed that most all of the prior considerable experimental work on spaciousness could be subscribed under Isovist Theory, and then used it to examine various crew cabin alternatives for the (newly proposed) U.S. Space Station. In fact, what is now the international space station has a longitudinal deck arrangement through it's modules, and not a transverse deck arrangement (like SkyLab) because the former provides an additional benefit of much greater interior spaciousness at no engineering cost tradeoff. As the article referenced by Sullivan shows, one of the main drivers of increased spaciousness is long interior views, which are particularly enhanced when one is on the diagonal of a space. Technically, it is the 'variance' of the Isovist at work here, that along with it's volume and it's sequential irregularity seems to affect human judgements of spaciousness the most. Isovist Theory has been recently elegantly incorporated into Spatial Syntax theory by Prof. John Peponis and his students at Georgia Tech., where they've created a software program called 'Spatialist' that analyzes Spatial Syntax and Isovist characteristics of different building and landscape designs. Such characteristics help predict (besides spaciousness) where and how people get lost in settings, their preferred routes through museums and displays, preferred seating in restaurants, perceived privacy in multifamily dwellings, and even what lobby characteristics makes certain banks more prone to being selected for bank robberies. In other words, there's alot of very useful, hard science that's been building up over the past 25 years around the idea of 'perceived space', and I thank Mr. Sullivan for calling this new article to my and the List's attention. Sincerely, Jim Wise CEO, Eco•Integrations, Inc. Adjunct Professor, Environmental Scis., Washington State University Richland, WA JamesAWise@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 5 14:38:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02498 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:38:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10922; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:33:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:29:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10170 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:29:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10164 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:29:44 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id BRYUa01428; Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:29:36 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 23:29:36 EST To: timex@pathcom.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Loose fiberglass removal Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5523 Marilyn, Some chemically sensitive clients of mine have had success removing loose fill fiberglass insulation from their attics by calling in an asbestos abatement contractor who employed the same techniques as for asbestos removal. Same approach might work in your basement. I don't advise a slapdash Do It Yourself attempt or hiring a local teenager to do the job. The general idea is to provide containment of the area with taped double layer of polyethylene, using a HEPA filtered negative pressure fan in the containment area. Remove the insulation with a HEPA filtered portable or truck mounted vacuum, and dispose of the material in a covered dumpster container. A complete cleanup of the affected area should be carried out by using a HEPA filtered vacuum, then wet wiping all smooth surfaces that have been exposed. All other windows, doors and openings are carefully kept closed and any sensitive individuals should evacuate the premises until a day or two after the operation is complete. Other typical asbestos abatement steps include protection of the workers, and careful disposal protocols for Tyvek coverall suits, etc. Careful work makes all the difference. Sloppy work can expose residents to stirred up fibers with potential health reactions. The hazard with loose fill fiberglass is not with formaldehyde, because there is no binder. It is my understanding that the tiny fibers (similar in size to those of asbestos) can adhere to the lining of the lungs and possibly exacerbate symptoms of asthma or a long list of other health reactions. There is now a warning that fiberglass insulation is possibly carcinogenic. This stuff is also an attractive nuisance for nesting rodents or other pests and their waste can add to airborne contamination. If moisture has settled in the insulation, as is likely in a basement, it can support microbiological growth (the spores of which are easily made airborne). If the material in question is waste from batts or rolls, it will also contain a formaldehyde-based binder and possibly asphalt adhesive for the facing. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone: 510-841-1039 fax: 510-841-1008 iaqkibbey@aol.com ---------------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 1/4/1999 2:46:47 PM, timex@pathcom.com writes: > > >It has just come to my concious attention that there is a whole huge pile >of >loose fiberglass in one corner of my basement. > >What would be the best way to get rid of that? Are there people who do >that >kind of thing for fiberglass like they do with asbestos? > >I am extremely sensitive to this stuff, so this is of great importance >to >me. > >Thanks, all . . . > >marilyn > >Cybercrone ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 5 14:41:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02535 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:41:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11303; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:36:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:32:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10542 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:31:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10537 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 14:31:51 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id HVRDa00808; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:41:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:41:39 EST To: mrbh@capecod.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberglass batts - health issues/vapor barriers Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5524 To Bruce Hammond & Megan Ryan, See comments interspersed below with "**********" In a message dated 1/4/1999 6:48:00 PM, mrbh@capecod.net writes: >David, > >I was interested to read your advice on insulating a basement, and if you >don't mind, have a few questions of my own. > >I am a new homeowner (not a building professional) who inherited a basement >with loose fiberglass batting in the ceiling. I take it this is a health >risk? Should I even be working in the basement until I have it removed >--and once it's gone, is it safe to vacuum down there? > **********If the fiberglass is kept isolated from living or working space, it should not be a problem under ordinary circumstances. However, if you work or spend time near exposed fiberglass, you could inhale the short, small diameter glass fibers which can become airborne, the formaldehyde based binder, chemical dye and possible asphalt adhesive. Warnings on fiberglass insulation now indicate it is a possible carcinogen. John Bower, in his book "The Healthy House," indicates that health effects from exposure to fiberglass insulation have included: conjunctivitis, dermatitis, intestinal and urological disorders, immunological imbalances, chronic chemical sensitization, heart irregularities, with accompanying chest pain, acute nervous teeth causing temporal mandibular joint syndrome, acute sinus headaches, migraine headaches, tracheitis, tonsillitis, sinusitis, tachycardia, acute eczema and psoriasis, acute depression, anxiety, and tension. Common affects of touching or handling fiberglass insulation are itchy skin, tiny cuts, and eye and nose irritation. If the ceiling is covered with a tightly fitted membrane of drywall and all penetrations are sealed, these effects should be rendered completely moot. Removal of fiberglass can be tricky, as I discussed in another posting on this list tonight to Marilyn . Techniques of asbestos removal can be carefully used to remove fiberglass. Do you work in the basement enough, or are you sensitive enough to these types of materials to warrant going to all this bother? Must you work in the basement? Standard vacuum cleaners stir up the dust smaller than .3 microns (the diameter of fiberglass or asbestos fibers) as they exhaust through the pores of the collection bag or exhaust port. Either a central whole-house vacuum system with exhaust to the outdoors or a HEPA filtered vacuum cleaner (like a Miele or Nilfisk fitted with the appropriate filters) is capable of vacuuming particles of this size without stirring them up and making them inhalable. Wet wiping is preferable to dry sweeping or dusting. >As for replacing it, I take it you recommend this Miraflex over screwing >foam boards onto the cinder block walls? What is Miraflex, and where do >I get it? > >Thanks very much for the help! > >Bruce Hammond >Megan Ryan >Wakeman Center >RFD 319X >Vineyard Haven, MA 02568 >(508) 696-6196 **********Not necessarily. What you are asking here is a very large question. Do we want this basement to be "indoors" or "outdoors" with reference to the habitable rooms of the house? If "indoors," the foam on the walls (and under slab) approach, combined with several other steps to seal the leaks, eliminate moisture sources, control all other building systems accordingly and to minimally condition the air of the basement. This would mean that you do not need to insulate the joist area above the basement ceiling/below the floor above because it is already "indoors." If "outdoors," Miraflex is a good solution, among others. Miraflex was introduced by Owns-Corning Fiberglas Corporation in 1994. It eliminates any binder from the batts because the specially formulated long, strong, twisted strands resist breakage and adhere together somewhat like Velcro. You should be able to get it from most building supply dealers who handle Owens-Corning products. If not, they should be able to order it. If not, try calling Owens-Corning at 419-535-8584 or at 800-GET PINK. See the discussion about this product in Environmental Building News, Volume 4, Number 1. You can find out more about Miraflex from the Owens Corning website: Owens Corning (look for "Find It Quick" search engine and type in "Miraflex") or go directly to their Miraflex site: MIRAFLEX Insulation They have an informative illustration of basement insulating techniques. Looking at this website again tonight, I am informed they now make a Miraflex batt in R-13 , along with their R-19 and R-25. This was news to me! I can't quite believe how much this sounds like a sales pitch. I am an independent consultant, not a sales person, and I am simply convinced this solution works for a great many of my clients, many of whom are chemically sensitive. Rigid Foam panels could also be installed in joist space. Good luck, David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone: 510-841-1039 fax: 510-841-1008 iaqkibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 5 15:34:15 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA03201 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:34:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15246; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:27:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:23:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA14648 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:22:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA14640 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:22:50 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id XNAGa01428; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:47:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 00:47:36 EST To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberglass batts - health issues/vapor barriers Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5525 By the way Dan, I just checked out the Miraflex website MIRAFLEX Insulation you can also reach it by going to Owens Corning and using their search mechanism to look for "Miraflex." They now provide a Miraflex batt in R-13. David Kibbey ----------------------------------------------- In a message dated 1/3/1999 7:09:20 AM, dpharazim@cyberzone.net writes: >David, >You mentioned that Miraflex comes R19 and R25. Can you suggest an R-11 >or so product? The current regs in our area require R-11 in the floor >below the basement in my new house, and the builder is planning to use >unfaced fiberglass batts. We will all be itching and scratching and >coughing in no time, not to mention the constant drift of particles onto >every object in the basement. Stapling plastic or Tyvek up is rather >unappealing, not to mention the royal pain every time I need to run a >new wire! My eventual goal is to insulate the basement walls with >extruded polystyrene and then attach furring strips and gyp board, and >get rid of the batts, and maybe I can negotiate with the building >official and leave the batts out on condition that the walls get done. > >If I could at least suggest an alternative that the builder can use for >his other houses, maybe there will be some postive gain. >Thanks. >Dan Harazim >Canterbury, CT > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 5 17:11:14 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA05208 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:11:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23976; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:06:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23576 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23556 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA23471 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:02:01 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:02:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.4.253.10] (uA2-p10.dreamscape.com [209.4.253.10]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA14519 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:36 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: uA2-p10.dreamscape.com [209.4.253.10] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:36 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: moisture, lead paint and vinyl siding Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5526 Hi folks, I'm interested in moisture problems in original siding, beneath vinyl siding. How is vinyl siding typically installed on a building with existing siding? Where are moisture problems found? Are they the result of wind driven rain and poor flashing or drain plane installation? Or are there problems out there resulting from vapor transmission? Would moisture damage to the original, painted wood siding, beneath the vinyl siding increase exposure to lead paint at some point?? Anyone have any experience? Stories? Theories?? Thanks, Terry Terry M. Brennan Camroden Associates 7240 East Carter Road Westmoreland, New York 13490 315-336-7955 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 5 21:53:55 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA09355 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:53:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08838; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:49:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:44:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04338 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:29:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04320 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:28:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 3266 invoked by alias); 6 Jan 1999 01:02:58 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 3251 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jan 1999 01:02:57 -0000 Received: from jdialup234.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.180.240.234) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 6 Jan 1999 01:02:57 -0000 Message-ID: <004501be3910$1c18cd40$eaf0b4d1@h5n5y7> From: "PETER F. ALSPACH" To: "Green building list" Subject: GBlist: Green Renovating Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 18:01:35 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5527 In line with some of the recent discussions: Can anyone recommend a good resource, book or otherwise, which covers "green" renovation techniques and materials? Thanks, Peter Alspach jupiterpete@uswest.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 5 22:00:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA09405 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:00:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09421; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:55:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:51:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04496 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:31:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from jack.direct.ca (jack.direct.ca [199.60.229.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04459 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 20:30:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mut-53-0929.direct.ca ([216.66.136.29] helo=direct.ca) by jack.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #18) id 0zxhow-0007Mp-00; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:31:39 -0800 Message-ID: <3692BCD8.F89F2121@direct.ca> Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 17:31:04 -0800 From: Richard Kadulski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-SYMPA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, dpharazim@cyberzone.net Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberglass batts - health issues/vapor barriers References: <199901051838.NAA00431@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------927F43C71B3905BB34EEDB21" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5528 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------927F43C71B3905BB34EEDB21 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Date: Mon, 04 Jan 1999 05:49:40 -0800 > From: Dan and Pam > Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberglass batts - health issues/vapor barriers > > For instance, they don't install vapor barriers under the slab, but they > do pipe around it for future radon mitigation. The vapour barrier under a concrete slab is there to reduce moisture migration into the house. By far this is the biggest source of moisture that leads to problems in houses (barring gross rain leakage from above). That is the main reason that the National Building Code of Canada requires a moisture barrier. In theory, 4 inches (that's right: four inches) of concrete will do the same job, but as the poly is so much cheaper and effective, it is the easier and preferred material to use. There is no such thing as dry soil (with possible exception of dessert climates) so this is fairly universally applicable. The bottom line is: it is well worth the extra hassle (if need be) to explain and convince the contractor to do the correct thing. > Tyvek, an air barrier, > is typically called "vapor barrier" around here, sort of like calling a > cat a dog- after all, they're both furry and have 4 legs (the animals, > not the membranes). They also blow fiberglass into the attic, but don't > install a vapor barrier, although they do install poly on the walls! > "That's the way we always do it, and the building official approves it, > and we've never had any complaints." Most important is that the building envelope be airtight. This means caulking and sealing ALL penetrations (wiring, plumbing, ducts, etc.). Interior poly vapour barriers are useful, and advisable, but as long as the air seal is well done, it should be sufficient. My suspicion is given the attitude you've expressed, they do not put extra effort at air sealing, so you will have air leakage through the ceiling, so that warm interior air will move moisture into the cold attic, when you will be able to see condensation at times. And if the soil under the slab is wet, guess where the moisture is coming from? Richard Kadulski --------------927F43C71B3905BB34EEDB21 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Richard Kadulski Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Richard Kadulski n: ;Richard Kadulski adr;dom: #204 - 1037 West Broadway;;;Vancouver,;BC;V6H 1E3; email;internet: kadulski@direct.ca tel;work: 604-689-184 tel;fax: 604-689-1841 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------927F43C71B3905BB34EEDB21 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Richard Kadulski Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Richard Kadulski n: ;Richard Kadulski adr;dom: #204 - 1037 West Broadway;;;Vancouver,;BC;V6H 1E3; email;internet: kadulski@direct.ca tel;work: 604-689-184 tel;fax: 604-689-1841 x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------927F43C71B3905BB34EEDB21-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 5 22:52:14 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA09924 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:52:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12863; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:47:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:42:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA12452 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12448 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:42:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.54] (rkd030.acadia.net [208.244.128.54]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA04665 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:43:00 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:41:50 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Minimum House Size Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5529 Thanks to Fred and Linda for pointing out that the value of the lot influences the size of the house - banks have a rule of thumb that the lot should not be worth more than 30% of the total value of the real estate. Hence, expensive lots beget expensive houses. Two thoughts struck me: First - why does the house have to be large to be expensive? A small, very-well-crafted home with exceptionally good materials and workmanship costs as much as a large cheesy box. Probably the cheesy box, being large, fetches more on the market than the well-crafted small home. This reflects "market preferences", which is shorthand for "people would rather have large crap than small quality". A cultural problem. Second - remember when we were discussing "leverage points" - the *real* forces influencing the built environment? I think we discussed the role of financing authorities and real-estate appraisal methods. If lenders have a rule that the land can only be 30% of the total package, why don't we go to work on CHANGING THE RULE? I know we have Linda, a real-estate appraiser, on the list. Are there any mortgage officers or real-estate agents out there? It would be great to hear your views on this. Has anyone on the list convinced a lender or appraiser to do something that wasn't "conventional wisdom"? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 5 23:06:28 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA10050 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:06:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14223; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 23:01:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:57:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA13830 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:57:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13826 for ; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 22:57:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id VAA0000014311; Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:58:04 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990106040105.006d07d4@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 22:01:05 -0600 To: Richard Kadulski , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberglass batts - health issues/vapor barriers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5530 "In theory, 4 inches (that's right: four inches) of concrete will do the same job, but as the poly is so much cheaper and effective, it is the easier and preferred material to use." I don't get it, if 4 inches of concrete will do the same job as a vapor barrier, and concrete slabs are at least 4" thick, then why put in the poly? Am I missing something in the above statement? Or do you mean 4" of concrete under the 4" slab you will pour? That must be it. In fact I definitely would put the poly down, seems to be pretty much common building practice anywhere we've been, but I do it because folks out there say we should not because I really understand enough about moisture migration. Sacie Lambertson. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 06:34:47 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA14072 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 06:34:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA27507; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 06:30:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 06:23:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA27155 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 06:23:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA27151 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 06:23:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.90] (pm0a26.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.90]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA25376; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 06:24:05 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) [207.136.199.90] from pm0a26.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.90] 207.136.199.90 Wed, 6 Jan 1999 06:24:05 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: nmalin@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <15384156201893@NAHBRC.ORG> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 06:31:27 -0500 To: "Peter Yost" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: (Fwd) green building incentive - New York Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5531 Hi Peter, We heard about this a while back and have tried to track it down. I was referred to Harvey Russack (Ecoloji). He faxed me a published story from Crain's New York Business ("Eco group seeks tax relief to spur green buildings", March 9-15 1998), but didn't return my calls for more details. The story makes it sound like an idea that had some support, but didn't get past the Real Estate Board of New York, so my sense is that it isn't going anywhere. There was certainly nothing concrete enough that would have justified a story in EBN. Please let us know if I'm wrong! Nadav At 7:48 AM +0000 1/5/99, Peter Yost wrote: >I am forwarding this post from a private email--any light that gb >listers can shed on this issue would be appreciated. > >"Rene Lapham referred me to you regarding a tax credit incentive bill >that is currently(possibly) being drafted for New York State. > >I am looking to get information on this bill if in fact it is moving >forward. > >I have heard that language is being drafted out of the New York State Dept. of >Taxation - and would like to confirm. > >please send me as much information on this issue - contacts would be >appreciate along with background information if any." > >Thank you. > >Randi S. Smith >New York State Community Action Association >518-238-1955 x22 > >Peter Yost >pyost@nahbrc.org >301-249-4000 x542 >http://www.nahbrc.org Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 08:22:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA14920 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:22:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00198; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:18:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:14:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA29952 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:14:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29948 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:14:05 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id QQCWa27784 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:13:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:13:56 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Minimum House Size Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5532 In a message dated 99-01-05 22:54:42 EST, dmfoley@acadia.net writes: << I know we have Linda, a real-estate appraiser, on the list. Are there any mortgage officers or real-estate agents out there? It would be great to hear your views on this. Has anyone on the list convinced a lender or appraiser to do something that wasn't "conventional wisdom"? >> I am licensed realtor since 1973, appraiser since 1987, Masters in Planning, was also state certified energy auditor when they had those, and a design/builder -- so my bent is a little different --- I always get called for the "unusual" houses around here -I can usually write a good enough letter to suggest that mortgage companies do lend on most homes when I think the value IS there, BUT things get REAL problematic when I have a gut feel that the value is there due to certaint well built features, but cannot prove it on the mortgage form --- since MOST loans are bought by the secondary market, they must meet certain guidelines or they cannot be resold and with so very few lenders willing to portfolio loans, ----- if I cannot come up with even one similar comparable, the loan is often sunk, especially if the people are putting less than 20% down -- I also am tired of seeing large cookie cutter houses on small lots for more than $300,000 with no energy efficient features, not properly oriented, and opulance merely for the sake of opulence --- makes me crazy --- just recently had to try to appraise a 1700 sq ft house on 3 acres, it would absolutely not appraise, because most of the homes in that area are more than 2500 Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 08:34:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA14979 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:34:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00829; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:30:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:26:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00510 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:26:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00506 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:26:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:24:06 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E1F3@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: Green Renovating Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 08:24:02 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5533 An excellent place to start is the recently published "No Regrets Remodeling" by Home Energy Magazine. It's chock full of good information, and covering a broad range of situations. (I think it's available in bookstores, and Amazon--if you must buy from Amazon go through the EBN site, http://www.ebuild.com. I got my copy through Home Energy (http://www.homeenergy.org/book-about.html) Mike Rogers > Can anyone recommend a good resource, book or otherwise, which covers > "green" renovation techniques and materials? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 10:20:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16275 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:20:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05784; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:16:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:11:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05334 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:11:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo29.mx.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.73]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05326 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:11:41 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo29.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id TOZEa01223; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:11:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1e7be2a4.36937d15@aol.com> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:11:17 EST To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Minimum House Size Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5534 David, You ask "Has anyone on the list convinced a lender or appraiser to do something that wasn't "conventional wisdom"?" The problem isn't individual bankers and appraisers. All the banks sell 98% or more of their mortgages on the secondary market. Fannie Mae, et al. set the rules on a bland bureaucratic national basis. Forbes didn't an intersting story on Fannie Mae last year you may want to check out. Kind of like utilities. All these quasi-governmental regulated monopoloies end up having undue influence in our lives and eliminate the creative options available in the market place. If you want to change the rules you either have to get all those big brother institutions eliminated, so there is some competition and choice in the system (talk about tilting at windmills) or become one of those all powerful bureucrats yourself I guess. Otherwise plan on seeing a lot more low quality bland boxes being buit to conform to the formulas dictated by inflexible regulators enforsing inflexible regulations. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 10:52:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16805 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:52:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07490; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:48:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:44:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07185 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:44:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07180 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:44:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (1Cust251.tnt13.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.36.251]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA07908; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 07:44:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36938485.A24@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 07:43:02 -0800 From: Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberglass batts - health issues/vapor barriers References: <1.5.4.32.19990106040105.006d07d4@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5535 David F. Lambertson wrote: > > "In theory, 4 inches (that's right: four inches) of concrete will do the > same job, but as the poly is so much cheaper and effective, it is the easier > and preferred material to use." > > I don't get it, if 4 inches of concrete will do the same job as a vapor > barrier, and concrete slabs are at least 4" thick, then why put in the poly? > Am I missing something in the above statement? Or do you mean 4" of > concrete under the 4" slab you will pour? That must be it. > Concrete is very permeable to moisture unless very specific admixes are designed in. 4" of concrete is 4" of vapor-permeable material. Polyethylene sheeting is an essential component for retarding vapor. Some engineers observe that poly is highly vulnerable during construction, and a hot-mopped roofing membrane under a slab is more effective for a total vapor barrier. Seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 10:57:38 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16922 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:57:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07928; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:53:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:49:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07537 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:49:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.49]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07529 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:49:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (1Cust251.tnt13.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.36.251]) by scaup.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA12395; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 07:50:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <369385C2.59A6@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 07:48:18 -0800 From: Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Kadulski CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberglass batts - health issues/vapor barriers References: <199901051838.NAA00431@solstice.crest.org> <3692BCD8.F89F2121@direct.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5536 Richard Kadulski wrote: > > The vapour barrier under a concrete slab is there to reduce moisture > migration into the house. By far this is the > biggest source of moisture that leads to problems in houses (barring > gross rain leakage from above). Whoa! In some cases, yes. But I have also seen severe moisture problems on upper floors of apartment buildings with no rain leaks either. The moisture from living - breathing, cooking, showering, combined with poor room ventillation and single-glazed window can and will lead to heavy consensation, mildew and structural decay. I have seen it myself...pretty shocking stuff. Just a caution to not make sweeping proclamations such as this. Seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 11:35:53 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17866 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:35:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10857; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:31:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:26:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10355 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:26:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10336 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:26:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.170]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.08) id 3365800 ; Wed, 06 Jan 1999 11:39:31 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990106112123.006a4a3c@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 11:21:23 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: Minimum House Size In-Reply-To: <199901060700.CAA20773@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5537 David Foley wrote: >Has anyone on the list convinced a lender or >appraiser to do something that wasn't "conventional wisdom"? > I ran into this situation when I purchased our 30 acre farm in 1994. We could not obtain a conventional mortgage through the commodity mortgage market because the value of the land exceeded 30% of the total value of the property and buildings. We did obtain a 30-year, variable rate mortgage from a local S&L (they would not offer a fixed rate mortgage). After 3 years the rate had climbed to 9.25%. Last year we refinanced through York Farm Credit at 6.75% (cut the term from 27 years left to 20 years and reduced monthly payments by $100/month). Last year this was a very competitive rate. The local Farm Credit "farmed out" the mortgage to a company called AgFirst Farm Credit Bank in South Carolina. There apparently are some institutions who recognize this market niche and are attempting to fill it. The marketing materials I received were geared directly toward people who had properties that would not qualify for the 30% rule. Not sure the availability of mortgages like this helps the sprawl issue. Probably a two edged sword, it may allow those who wish to preserve land to more easily afford the mortgage payment but it also makes it easier for suburbanites to afford a large lot. I like to think I am in the former category but maybe one side of that sword is sharper than the other. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 12:30:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA18935 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:30:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14834; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:26:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:22:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14314 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:22:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from swiss.direct.ca (swiss.direct.ca [199.60.229.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14308 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from reg-53-0149.direct.ca ([216.66.142.49] helo=direct.ca) by swiss.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #18) id 0zxwfi-0006WE-00; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:23:07 -0800 Message-ID: <36939BD0.2A483ADB@direct.ca> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:22:24 -0800 From: Richard Kadulski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-SYMPA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dmelchert@earthlink.net CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Fiberglass batts - health issues/vapor barriers References: <199901051838.NAA00431@solstice.crest.org> <3692BCD8.F89F2121@direct.ca> <369385C2.59A6@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5538 Fair comment. My comment about ground water being the major moisture source really applies to houses, the situation in apartment buildings is something else. Of course, if you were to have an indoor swimming pool or greenhouse operation inside the house, then that would change my comment also. Richard Kadulski Seth Melchert wrote: > Richard Kadulski wrote: > > > > The vapour barrier under a concrete slab is there to reduce moisture > > migration into the house. By far this is the > > biggest source of moisture that leads to problems in houses (barring > > gross rain leakage from above). > > Whoa! In some cases, yes. But I have also seen severe moisture problems > on upper floors of apartment buildings with no rain leaks either. The > moisture from living - breathing, cooking, showering, combined with poor > room ventillation and single-glazed window can and will lead to heavy > consensation, mildew and structural decay. I have seen it > myself...pretty shocking stuff. > > Just a caution to not make sweeping proclamations such as this. > > Seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 13:04:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA19485 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:04:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17069; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:59:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:54:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16675 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:54:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16668 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:54:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from myrtle.rtpnc.epa.gov by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26439) with ESMTP id <0F55001P9G9T0G@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:51:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26438) with SMTP id <0F55007VHGA9VY@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 06 Jan 1999 12:51:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 06 Jan 1999 12:51:25 -0500 Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 12:41:49 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: Green Renovating -Reply To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5539 An excellent book with a focus on energy efficiency is No-Regrets Remodeling by Home Energy magazine. It's available at amazon.com or directly through Home Energy at 510-524-5405. Steve O. ============= Contact Information: Steve Offutt - ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html ============= >>> "PETER F. ALSPACH" 01/05/99 08:01pm >>> In line with some of the recent discussions: Can anyone recommend a good resource, book or otherwise, which covers "green" renovation techniques and materials? Thanks, Peter Alspach jupiterpete@uswest.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 13:12:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA19636 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:12:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17710; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:04:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17383 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:04:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17378 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:04:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from my_machine.UIC.EDU (SLIP11A-10.DIALIN.UIC.EDU [128.248.141.142]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA26676 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:46:48 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990106114633.006ad3b8@tigger.cc.uic.edu> X-Sender: miversen@tigger.cc.uic.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 11:46:33 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Michael Iversen Subject: GBlist: GBList: Green Renovating Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5540 At 06:01 PM 1/5/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Can anyone recommend a good resource, book or otherwise, which covers >"green" renovation techniques and materials? > >Thanks, > >Peter Alspach >jupiterpete@uswest.net Peter ... as I have not read the following book, it is being provided for informational purposes and not as a recommendation. Perhaps someone else from the GBlist could comment on this book. The following information was copied from amazon.com. Eco-Renovation; The Ecological Home Improvement Guide Author: Edward Harland List Price: $16.95 Paperback - 288 pages (April 1994) Chelsea Green Pub Co; ISBN: 0930031660 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.71 x 8.98 x 6.03 Availability: This title is currently on back order. We do not have a reprint date for this title, but we expect to be able to ship it to you within 3-5 weeks. Midwest Book Review: Homeowners who want to use `green' principles in the renovation of their home receive a clear and unusual guide to everything from reducing utility bills to using environmentally safe building materials. This details common household energy drains and their less wasteful alternatives. Michael Roy Iversen, Architect 841 West Roscoe Street / Chicago, IL 60657-2303 Tel: 773.244.9227 Fax: 773.871.0121 E-mail: MIversen@uic.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 14:13:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA20617 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:13:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA21559; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:07:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:02:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA20941 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:02:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from edtnps05.telusplanet.net (edtnps05.telusplanet.net [198.161.157.105]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20936 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:02:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ltbrpx08-port-21.agt.net ([204.209.197.41]:1030 "HELO LOCALNAME") by edtnps05.telusplanet.net with SMTP id <535600-5056>; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:02:47 -0700 X-Sender: gleclair@mail.telusplanet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: gleclair@mail.telusplanet.net (Gilles Leclair) Subject: Re: GBlist: Wood fired boilers Message-Id: <19990106190258Z535600-5056+925@edtnps05.telusplanet.net> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 12:02:47 -0700 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5541 >Can anyone on this list put me in touch with people who use wood-fired >boilers? Sacie Lambertson > Sacie, I don't know of anyone using a wood-fired boiler but I read about one being available from Hampton Technologies Corp. of Charlottetown, PEI, which really impressed me. There's a very interesting article in the April 1980 edition of Harrowsmith magazine. The claim is that the Jetstream burns so hot (1600dF) that combustion is virtually complete and all but 0.2 percent of the wood is burned, the remainder being white ash. The owner stated it can produce up to 120,000 BTU's per hour and when hooked up to a large water tank can store up to 3 days heat after one 6-hour burn. Hope this helps, __________________________________________________________________________ Gilles Leclair gleclair@telusplanet.net Ph. (403) 732-4749 "Globalisation isn't new; we in the Third World are very familiar with it. We used to call it colonisation." - Vandana Shiva, Environmental activist from India. :>) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 14:25:17 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA20809 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:25:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22789; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:20:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:16:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22216 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:16:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22212 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:16:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA05150 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:17:15 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:17:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA6-p18.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.146]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA06887 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:16:50 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sA6-p18.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.146] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:16:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3693B60D.AAAEF4BC@dreamscape.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:14:21 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: spray cellulose pricing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5542 Can some of the members of this list give my a price range for spray cellulose installations, board foot prices would be most helpful? Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 14:25:37 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA20814 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:25:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22855; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:21:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:17:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22297 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:17:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22285 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:17:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.253.25.4] (208.253.25.4) by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:25:29 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: GBList: Green Renovating Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:22:16 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1296471768-2025567@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5543 Eco-Renovations was a good book. We used to carry it in the Iris Catalog, but we have been told it's out of print and probably won't come back. If anyone has different information, please let me know. As far as I have noticed, we already offer all the books mentioned (and several others). I was hoping for a new book or two that we might add to the new Spring catalog. Any more suggestions? Bruce >At 06:01 PM 1/5/99 -0700, you wrote: >> >>Can anyone recommend a good resource, book or otherwise, which covers >>"green" renovation techniques and materials? >> >>Thanks, >> >>Peter Alspach >>jupiterpete@uswest.net > > >Peter ... as I have not read the following book, it is being provided for >informational purposes and not as a recommendation. Perhaps someone else >from the GBlist could comment on this book. The following information was >copied from amazon.com. > >Eco-Renovation; The Ecological Home Improvement Guide >Author: Edward Harland >List Price: $16.95 >Paperback - 288 pages (April 1994) >Chelsea Green Pub Co; ISBN: 0930031660 ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.71 x >8.98 x 6.03 >Availability: This title is currently on back order. We do not have a >reprint date for this title, but we expect to be able to ship it to you >within 3-5 weeks. >Midwest Book Review: Homeowners who want to use `green' principles in the >renovation of their home receive a clear and unusual guide to everything >from reducing utility bills to using environmentally safe building >materials. This details common household energy drains and their less >wasteful alternatives. > > >Michael Roy Iversen, Architect >841 West Roscoe Street / Chicago, IL 60657-2303 >Tel: 773.244.9227 >Fax: 773.871.0121 >E-mail: MIversen@uic.edu >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 14:45:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA21292 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:45:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27364; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:41:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:37:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24179 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:37:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24165 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:37:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:34:04 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E215@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: GBList: Green Renovating Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:34:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5544 I don't know about it being out of print or not, but I have seen it in a few bookstores in recent months. > Eco-Renovations was a good book. We used to carry it in the > Iris Catalog, > but we have been told it's out of print and probably won't > come back. If > anyone has different information, please let me know. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 17:07:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24992 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:07:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09873; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:10:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:05:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA09416 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:05:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from srunet.sru.edu (srunet.sru.edu [192.148.234.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09412 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:05:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from phoenix.sru.edu ([205.149.64.44] helo=rockmail.sru.edu) by srunet.sru.edu with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for greenbuilding@crest.org id 0zy1Ak-0008AN-00; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:11:26 -0500 Received: from oemcomputer ([208.231.49.156]) by rockmail.sru.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with SMTP id AAA31EA for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:06:34 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990106210340.006836dc@rockmail.sru.edu> X-Sender: jdt4006@rockmail.sru.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 16:03:40 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Jeremy Truog Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5545 Hello listers, I am currently working on a paper about low-income housing. Specifically I am looking at green design within low-income housing, compact housing design, and a little bit into owner-built housing, as well as energy efficient mortgages. Does anyone have any information/sources/websites that deal with any of the issues above? And does anyone have any additional items that I should be looking at? Thanks in advance for your input, Jeremy Truog ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 17:07:57 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24995 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:07:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06026; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:12:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:07:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05553 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:07:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from wtpprod1.wtp.net (wtpprod1.wtp.net [206.26.76.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05529 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 15:07:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.wtp.net (wtprl-24.wtp.net [208.153.173.59]) by wtpprod1.wtp.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA00779 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:08:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990106201028.006aad08@wtp.net> X-Sender: lexy@wtp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 13:10:28 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alexis Adams Subject: GBlist: Danish oil (revisited) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5546 Thanks, all, for your feedback on my questions regarding Watco and other Danish oils. Much of the response I received focused on Danish oil as a finishing product for flooring, which was very informative, but I am still unsure about Watco vs. other brands of Danish oils, such as Tried & True, when it comes to environmental safety. We will use whichever product we ultimately choose to treat a wide range of materials in our new home, including all of the beams supporting our second floor, the window trim, the floors (I think) and on. Are there any opinions out there regarding the merits of one brand over another? Again, many thanks to all for your feedback. ___________________ John H. Poore P.O. Box 2088 Red Lodge, MT 59068 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 17:31:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA25334 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:31:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14284; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:26:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:21:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13909 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:21:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from airmail.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.20.220]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13904 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from arb.ca.gov ([146.114.11.17]) by airmail.arb.ca.gov (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6DF6; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:20:15 -0800 Message-ID: <3693E298.A4EBC4C5@arb.ca.gov> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:24:25 -0800 From: "Thomas Phillips" Organization: CARB/RD, Indoor Air Quality and Personal Exposure Assessment Program X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Subject: GBlist: vinyl siding Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6D620B8155C3346D4B5046EF" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5547 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6D620B8155C3346D4B5046EF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TERRY: Would aluminum sided homes provide useful, analogous data? I don't know if there are still many around, but the more conductive aluminum may do a better job of condensing moisture on the inside face in cold weather. Just curious, after finally renting the move "Tin Men" about aluminum-siding scam artists. It warped me back to 1963. It also made me realize that the "consumers'" awareness of home construction and performance is probably still in the stone age Happy 99, Tom =========. SNIP Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:36 -0500 (EST) From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: moisture, lead paint and vinyl siding Hi folks, I'm interested in moisture problems in original siding, beneath vinyl siding. -- Thomas J. Phillips CARB/RD, 2020 L St., POB 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 916.322.7145/4357 FAX IAQ guidelines: http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm Research summaries: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor.htm --------------6D620B8155C3346D4B5046EF Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for THOMAS J. PHILLIPS Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: THOMAS J. PHILLIPS n: PHILLIPS;THOMAS J. org: California Air Resources Board, Research Division adr: 2020 L St.;;POB 2815;Sacramento;CA;95812;USA email;internet: tphillip@arb.ca.gov title: Air Pollution Research Specialist tel;work: 916.322.7145 tel;fax: / 4357 note;quoted-printable:IAQ guidelines: http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm=0D=0A= Research summaries: http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------6D620B8155C3346D4B5046EF-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 17:39:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA25490 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:39:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14912; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:35:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:31:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14626 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:31:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14622 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:31:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp009.cd.centuryinter.net (ppp009.cd.centuryinter.net [209.142.147.81]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA23036; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:30:40 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3694147E.6E1@centuryinter.net> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 17:57:18 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Reply-To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: spray cellulose pricing References: <3693B60D.AAAEF4BC@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5548 Hello, I just finished blowing in 18" of cellulose over 830 sq ft. ceiling. I used 140 bags @ $3.74 (US) per bag. It was made nearby from 100% recycled newspaper. The lumberyard where I bought the insulation gave me the blower for free. I live in Northern Michigan 20 miles SW of Traverse City. Keith Chuck Hinckley wrote: > > Can some of the members of this list give my a price range for spray > cellulose installations, board foot prices would be most helpful? > > Chuck Hinckley > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 17:51:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA25630 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:51:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA15630; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:47:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:43:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15304 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:42:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15292 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:42:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.pitt.edu (pgh2128.icubed.com [208.157.22.128]) by post-ofc05.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cispo-7.2.2.2) ID ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:43:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3693E706.FC1895CA@pop.pitt.edu> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 17:43:19 -0500 From: AO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: What's a board foot? References: <3693B60D.AAAEF4BC@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5549 What's a board foot? Not the same as a square foot? I've come across this and didn't know what it was. ````` Subject: GBlist: spray cellulose pricing Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:14:21 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Organization: Ash Creek Design To: Greenbuilding Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Can some of the members of this list give my a price range for spray > cellulose installations, board foot prices would be most helpful? > > Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 17:55:26 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA25719 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:55:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16171; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:51:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:46:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15597 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15590 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:46:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-29-158.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.133.158]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA12217; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:47:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:49:43 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE399C.F154CAE0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'dmelchert@earthlink.net'" , "David F. Lambertson" Cc: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: RE: Floor slabs and vapor barriers Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:24:19 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5550 On Wednesday, January 06, 1999 10:43 AM, Seth Melchert [SMTP:dmelchert@earthlink.net] wrote: > Concrete is very permeable to moisture unless very specific admixes are > designed in. 4" of concrete is 4" of vapor-permeable material. I am afraid I cannot agree, unless by moisture you mean liquid water. A 4" slab, typically with a water to cememtn ratio of 0.5 to 0.7 will be quite capillary active (it will suck water like a sponge) but relatively vapour tight. Several independent sources indicate the vapour permeability of concrete to be between 1 and 10 ng/Pa m s. Thus for a 4" slab the vapor permeance would be between 10 and 100 ng/Pa s m2. Although the 100 metric perm value is a bit high, it will not cause moisture problems. Consider a 20C soil at 100%RH, and interior air at 22C and 30%RH. Using the highest permeance this means a vapour flow of 13.3 grams per day per m2 or 1.3 kg per day from a 100 m2 (1100 sq ft) slab. Other moisture sources in houses typically generate 5 to 20 kg per day, so this amount of moisture is unlikely to be a problem (in some cases it may tip the balance though). In reality, most concrete slabs have a steel troweled finish coat which results in a vapour permeance to at most half what the above example assumes. The addition of most floor coverings will dramatically reduce vapour transmission into the home as well. Concrete slabs need protection from liquid water which can be wicked up into the slab. Poly sheets do this job well, as do mopped on asphalts etc. This source of moisture can be much larger than vapour diffussion in the right (wrong?) situations. About 3-4" of crushed stone with no fine particles will also act as a capillary break and prevent this wicking action. Sand wont. > Polyethylene sheeting is an essential component for retarding vapor. > Some engineers observe that poly is highly vulnerable during > construction, and a hot-mopped roofing membrane under a slab is more > effective for a total vapor barrier. Poly that gets punctured has no significant effect on the vapour permeance of the slab-sheet system, certainly no more than 5%. Crawlspaces over soil are an entirely different story, and require poly, concrete or similiar over them. Unprotected soil can deliver 0.3 to 0.5 kg/m2/day (based on a number of studies and theoretical calcs) to a house, many times more than vapour diffusion through slabs. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 17:56:34 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA25740 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:56:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16343; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:52:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:48:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15771 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:48:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from eypdc04.eypae.com (eypdc04.eypae.com [205.234.22.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15761 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:48:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by eypdc04.eypae.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:51:06 -0500 Message-ID: <7149413C9A5AD01182DC0060971991CE0126291C@eypdc04.eypae.com> From: Peggy White To: "'AO'" , ashcreek@dreamscape.com Cc: Greenbuilding Subject: RE: GBlist: What's a board foot? Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:51:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5551 1 inch thick by 12 inches wide by 12 inches long (actual size). Even if the lumber you are purchasing has already been milled down to the nominal size, it is sold by the board foot size. Peggy White (former woodworker) -----Original Message----- From: AO [mailto:nore@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 5:43 PM To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Cc: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: What's a board foot? What's a board foot? Not the same as a square foot? I've come across this and didn't know what it was. ````` Subject: GBlist: spray cellulose pricing Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:14:21 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Organization: Ash Creek Design To: Greenbuilding Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Can some of the members of this list give my a price range for spray > cellulose installations, board foot prices would be most helpful? > > Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 18:01:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA25803 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:01:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16764; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:56:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:52:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA16380 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:52:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from eypdc04.eypae.com (eypdc04.eypae.com [205.234.22.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA16372 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:52:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by eypdc04.eypae.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:55:22 -0500 Message-ID: <7149413C9A5AD01182DC0060971991CE0126291E@eypdc04.eypae.com> From: Peggy White To: Peggy White , "'AO'" , ashcreek@dreamscape.com Cc: Greenbuilding Subject: RE: GBlist: What's a board foot? Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 17:55:14 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5552 Of course I got my 'nominal' and 'actual' turned around... time to go home! -----Original Message----- From: Peggy White Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 5:51 PM To: 'AO'; ashcreek@dreamscape.com Cc: Greenbuilding Subject: RE: GBlist: What's a board foot? 1 inch thick by 12 inches wide by 12 inches long (actual size). Even if the lumber you are purchasing has already been milled down to the nominal size, it is sold by the board foot size. Peggy White (former woodworker) -----Original Message----- From: AO [mailto:nore@pop.pitt.edu] Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 5:43 PM To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Cc: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: What's a board foot? What's a board foot? Not the same as a square foot? I've come across this and didn't know what it was. ````` Subject: GBlist: spray cellulose pricing Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:14:21 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Organization: Ash Creek Design To: Greenbuilding Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Can some of the members of this list give my a price range for spray > cellulose installations, board foot prices would be most helpful? > > Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 18:27:52 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA26212 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:27:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA18666; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:23:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:19:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA18245 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:19:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA18240 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:19:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 21050 invoked by alias); 6 Jan 1999 23:20:14 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 21025 invoked by uid 0); 6 Jan 1999 23:20:12 -0000 Received: from jdialup231.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.180.240.231) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 6 Jan 1999 23:20:12 -0000 Message-ID: <006601be39ca$ebda93a0$e7f0b4d1@h5n5y7> From: "PETER F. ALSPACH" To: "Green Building" Subject: Re: GBlist: GBList: Green Renovating Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 16:18:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5553 Thank you all for the info. Looks like I've got enough reading to keep me busy for a while! Peter ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 20:06:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA27856 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:06:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23756; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:57:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA23106 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:57:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA23102 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:57:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.173]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 5012300 ; Wed, 06 Jan 1999 17:12:37 -0800 Message-ID: <36940641.6C5B55E7@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 16:56:33 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" CC: "'dmelchert@earthlink.net'" , "David F. Lambertson" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Floor slabs and vapor barriers References: <01BE399C.F154CAE0.jfstraube@golden.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5554 Excellent response John, I always appreciate the depth of information. I just wanted to add that one area of potential water penetration is the footing and foundation walls. Generally these have an exterior damproofing and can be coped to a drainage line but the base footing is unprotected without even a capillary break - perimeter walls are typically a wet area and even without concerns of groundwater there is a steady source of moisture capable of being drawn into the wall and into an interior. A poly seal below footings tied to the slab seal is a better wrap - alternatively but at greater expense is a good concrete waterproofing additive for footings/walls and slab. John John Straube wrote: > On Wednesday, January 06, 1999 10:43 AM, Seth Melchert > [SMTP:dmelchert@earthlink.net] wrote: > > Concrete is very permeable to moisture unless very specific admixes are > > designed in. 4" of concrete is 4" of vapor-permeable material. > I am afraid I cannot agree, unless by moisture you mean liquid water. A 4" > slab, typically with a water to cememtn ratio of 0.5 to 0.7 will be quite > capillary active (it will suck water like a sponge) but relatively vapour > tight. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 20:07:59 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA27893 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:07:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA23937; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:03:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:59:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA23267 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:59:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA23225 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:59:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.243] (ka4-243.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.243]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.9.1+DND/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA04625; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:59:36 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 19:59:24 -0500 To: IAQKibbey@aol.com, Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Loose fiberglass removal Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAA23261 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5555 Sgrìobh IAQKibbey@aol.com: > There > is now a warning that fiberglass insulation is possibly carcinogenic. This Egad. I'm putting rock wool in between my rafters, in three layers of three-inch-thick "batts" (and wearing a mask and gloves while doing so). Is rock wool safer, thanks to larger fibers, or is it equally or more hazardous? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 20:23:00 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA28067 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA24972; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:18:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:14:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA24687 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:14:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA24677 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:14:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.50] (rkd026.acadia.net [208.244.128.50]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA27970 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:15:20 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:14:11 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: for some pocket change? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5556 >Date: Wed, 06 Jan 99 17:33:17 >From: "Berk, Judy" >Encoding: 1223 Text >To: dmfoley@acadia.net >Subject: for some pocket change? > > >Environmental prize -- St. Andrews University of Scotland >and Conoco have teamed up to find practical solutions to >environmental problems through the $25,000 St. Andrews Prize, >a new, international essay competition. University officials >point out that there is still time to make a submission >for the prize -- the closing date for entries is Jan. 31. >The St. Andrews Prize is aimed at identifying solutions >that are acceptable from all practical viewpoints -- scientific, >economic and political -- to environmental problems. Another >important component of the selection criteria will be the >ability of the entrant to present a paper that will stimulate >broad public debate. Competition for the $25,000 award and >medal is open to anyone from anywhere in the world, so the >winner could be a scientist, academic, someone from industry >or commerce, a politician, a journalist, a teacher or someone >working at home bringing up a family. An essay of no more >than 3,000 jargon-free words is required. Contact Guy Cantwell, >Conoco, (281)293-3037. > > > >Judy Berk >Natural Resources Council of Maine >3 Wade Street >Augusta, Maine 04330 >phone - (207) 622-3101 x 203 >fax - (207) 622-4343 >email jberk@nrcm.org > David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 22:33:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA00086 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:33:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01439; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:29:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:25:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01132 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:25:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (yW5/etFdQwlqkkWEuLkIHhdFxXKvWDja@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01128 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:25:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (zu5jd0PWP80PbyXRUCPcQfOCQSGk+gmT@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA11943; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 21:26:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA22200; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 21:26:08 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36942950.F710104C@gs.net> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 21:26:08 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peggy White CC: "'AO'" , ashcreek@dreamscape.com, Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: What's a board foot? References: <7149413C9A5AD01182DC0060971991CE0126291E@eypdc04.eypae.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5557 Actually a board foot is what happens when your foot goes to sleep. Just to liven things up a bit. A bunk is not a bed but is 1000 board feet. Steve Peggy White wrote: > Of course I got my 'nominal' and 'actual' turned around... time to go home! > > -----Original Message----- > From: Peggy White > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 5:51 PM > To: 'AO'; ashcreek@dreamscape.com > Cc: Greenbuilding > Subject: RE: GBlist: What's a board foot? > > 1 inch thick by 12 inches wide by 12 inches long (actual size). Even if the > lumber you are purchasing has already been milled down to the nominal size, > it is sold by the board foot size. > > Peggy White > (former woodworker) > > -----Original Message----- > From: AO [mailto:nore@pop.pitt.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 1999 5:43 PM > To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com > Cc: Greenbuilding > Subject: GBlist: What's a board foot? > > What's a board foot? Not the same as a square foot? I've come across > this and didn't know what it was. > > ````` > Subject: GBlist: spray cellulose pricing > Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 14:14:21 -0500 > From: Chuck Hinckley > Organization: Ash Creek Design > To: Greenbuilding > > Chuck Hinckley wrote: > > > Can some of the members of this list give my a price range for spray > > cellulose installations, board foot prices would be most helpful? > > > > Chuck Hinckley > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 22:39:03 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA00147 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:39:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01885; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:34:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:31:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01571 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:30:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (dhJ5vcq1wGdBK9JRCjTvL9PRmU4b98YD@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01567 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:30:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (WXv7NEgHnBhuqIDN+Gw71Ny/IEME8G8c@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA12194; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 21:31:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA22383; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 21:31:37 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36942A9A.7DA9B8AD@gs.net> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 21:31:38 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Brennan CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: moisture, lead paint and vinyl siding References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5558 Nothing much happens to the wood underneath the vinyl since it is basically out of the elements. Most times there is some type of barrier placed under the vinyl before it is installed. This barrier is more for air than moisture. If you sealed the underlying wood where there is no transfer of moisture out of the building you would likely end up with dry rot. This is the reason that a vapor barrier is normally placed just behind the sheet rock. Steve Terry Brennan wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm interested in moisture problems in original siding, beneath vinyl > siding. How is vinyl siding typically installed on a building with > existing siding? Where are moisture problems found? Are they the result > of wind driven rain and poor flashing or drain plane installation? Or are > there problems out there resulting from vapor transmission? Would moisture > damage to the original, painted wood siding, beneath the vinyl siding > increase exposure to lead paint at some point?? Anyone have any experience? > Stories? Theories?? > > Thanks, > Terry > > Terry M. Brennan > Camroden Associates > 7240 East Carter Road > Westmoreland, New York 13490 > 315-336-7955 > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 23:04:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA00624 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:04:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03104; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:00:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:56:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA02736 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:56:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02732 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-11-73.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.11.73]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA05814; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:57:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3694324F.BEC80055@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 23:04:31 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net, Greenbuilding CC: Dale Fallon Subject: Re: GBlist: spray cellulose pricing References: <3693B60D.AAAEF4BC@dreamscape.com> <3694147E.6E1@centuryinter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5559 Hi Keith, How was it as a do-it-yourself job? Is it pretty straight forward? Blow the perimeter then work your way out? Did it take a long time? Did you seal around the edges before you started? What protective gear did you wear? Any obvious gotchas you wish you new about before you did it? Any comments are appreciated. Neil Keith Breuker wrote: > > Hello, > > I just finished blowing in 18" of cellulose over 830 sq ft. ceiling. I > used 140 bags @ $3.74 (US) per bag. It was made nearby from 100% > recycled newspaper. The lumberyard where I bought the insulation gave > me the blower for free. > > I live in Northern Michigan 20 miles SW of Traverse City. > > Keith > > Chuck Hinckley wrote: > > > > Can some of the members of this list give my a price range for spray > > cellulose installations, board foot prices would be most helpful? > > > > Chuck Hinckley > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 6 23:07:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA00661 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:07:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03339; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:03:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:59:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA02921 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from srunet.sru.edu (srunet.sru.edu [192.148.234.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02917 for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:59:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from phoenix.sru.edu ([205.149.64.44] helo=rockmail.sru.edu) by srunet.sru.edu with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for greenbuilding@crest.org id 0zy7ch-0008Vn-00; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 00:04:43 -0500 Received: from oemcomputer ([208.231.49.116]) by rockmail.sru.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with SMTP id AAA608C for ; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:59:49 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990107035654.006817f8@rockmail.sru.edu> X-Sender: jdt4006@rockmail.sru.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 22:56:54 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Jeremy Truog Subject: RE: GBlist: What's a board foot? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5560 Here's some additional information on board feet that may help you. To compute the amount of board feet in any board, lumber, or timber, divide the nominal sectional area (2'x4', 2'x6', etc.) in inches by 12, and multiply by the length in feet. Jeremy Truog ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 01:26:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA02404 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 01:26:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA09256; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 01:22:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 01:18:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA08970 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 01:18:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA08966 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 01:18:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (ts02-ip37.hevanet.com [206.163.60.98]) by hevanet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA26310; Wed, 6 Jan 1999 22:19:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <369451DF.474F6250@hevanet.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 22:19:43 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FUnger@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Minimum House Size References: <1e7be2a4.36937d15@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5561 Hi, Fred-- While your frustration is understandable, I think you have unfairly characterized lenders and the secodary mortgage corporations. They have supported energy efficient mortgages since the late 70's and have continually improved their products. Appraisers have tools for estimating the value of energy measures besides comparable sales, thanks to Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. Their "conventional wisdom" protects both the lenders and borrowers. I haven't read the article in Forbes, but it's not a place I would generally expect to find an objective analysis of government. Best, Mike FUnger@aol.com wrote: > David, > > You ask "Has anyone on the list convinced a lender or appraiser to do > something that wasn't "conventional wisdom"?" > > The problem isn't individual bankers and appraisers. All the banks sell 98% or > more of their mortgages on the secondary market. Fannie Mae, et al. set the > rules on a bland bureaucratic national basis. Forbes didn't an intersting > story on Fannie Mae last year you may want to check out. > > Kind of like utilities. All these quasi-governmental regulated monopoloies end > up having undue influence in our lives and eliminate the creative options > available in the market place. If you want to change the rules you either have > to get all those big brother institutions eliminated, so there is some > competition and choice in the system (talk about tilting at windmills) or > become one of those all powerful bureucrats yourself I guess. > > Otherwise plan on seeing a lot more low quality bland boxes being buit to > conform to the formulas dictated by inflexible regulators enforsing inflexible > regulations. > > Fred > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 01:43:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA02901 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 01:43:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA09861; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 01:39:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 01:35:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA09583 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 01:35:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA09579 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 01:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.172]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 5170300 ; Wed, 06 Jan 1999 22:54:23 -0800 Message-ID: <36945598.333A06B9@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 22:35:04 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Brennan CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: moisture, lead paint and vinyl siding References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5562 I've encountered it only once long ago in a renovation. The kind of stuff that when you hold it in your hand makes you wonder why we make the things we do. Was installed over furring strips over the original siding. Was fairly embrittled and cracked - lots of opportunities for moisture penetration. I could envision areas of constant high temperature, humidity, breakdown of the polymer (monomer?) and despite the drain plane the finishing materials on the original siding or some surface decomposition of the original. John Terry Brennan wrote: > Hi folks, > > I'm interested in moisture problems in original siding, beneath vinyl > siding. How is vinyl siding typically installed on a building with > existing siding? Where are moisture problems found? Are they the result > of wind driven rain and poor flashing or drain plane installation? Or are > there problems out there resulting from vapor transmission? Would moisture > damage to the original, painted wood siding, beneath the vinyl siding > increase exposure to lead paint at some point?? Anyone have any experience? > Stories? Theories?? > > Thanks, > Terry > > Terry M. Brennan > Camroden Associates > 7240 East Carter Road > Westmoreland, New York 13490 > 315-336-7955 > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 08:22:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA05754 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:22:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA19411; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:18:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:14:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA19118 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:14:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA19113 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:14:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.104.115]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA11506 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:19:42 +0000 Message-ID: <369490B3.155EF8A5@which.net> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:47:16 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: RE: Floor slabs and vapor barriers X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5563 There has been no mention of the affect of the insulation under these concrete floor slabs. Isn't everybody insulating under the slabs? Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 08:38:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA05976 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:38:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA20424; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:34:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:30:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA19977 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:30:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from medusa.twinoaks.org (medusa.twinoaks.org [206.239.101.132]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA19907 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:29:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ixchel (206.239.101.140) by medusa.twinoaks.org (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:00:03 +0000 Message-ID: From: "McCune " To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:32:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #435 Reply-to: McCune In-reply-to: <199901070059.TAA23288@solstice.crest.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5564 > >Can anyone on this list put me in touch with people who use wood-fired > >boilers? Sacie Lambertson > > Another maker of quality [expensive] high performance solid fuel and dual fuel boilers is H S Tarm Company. Their USA representative is TARM USA Inc. Main Street--Lyme, NH 03768 1-800-782-9927 -- Fax # 1-603-795-4740 http://www.hearth.com/tarm/hs.html I've installed and followed up on several of their solid fuel residential boilers. They burn cleanly and are low maintenance machines. --------------------------- McCune Twin Oaks Community 138 Twin Oaks Rd Louisa VA 23093-6337 540 894 5126 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 08:59:08 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA06236 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21742; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:54:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:51:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21453 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:50:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21449 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:50:58 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ089870; Thu, 7 Jan 99 06:51:35 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA49538; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 06:51:28 -0700 Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 06:51:27 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: McCune Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: wood based boilers In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5565 McCune: Can these burn sawdust? I am looking for a high efficiency (ie. 94% or better combustion efficiency) boiler for hydronic heating of floors in a commercial (millwork factory) strawbale project. Jorg Ostrowski __________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, McCune wrote: > Another maker of quality [expensive] high performance solid fuel > and dual fuel boilers is H S Tarm Company. Their USA > representative is > > TARM USA Inc. Main Street--Lyme, NH 03768 > 1-800-782-9927 -- Fax # 1-603-795-4740 > > http://www.hearth.com/tarm/hs.html > > I've installed and followed up on several of their solid fuel residential > boilers. They burn cleanly and are low maintenance machines. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 09:05:07 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06336 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:05:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22206; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:00:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:57:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA21849 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:56:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA21845 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:56:55 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ637053; Thu, 7 Jan 99 06:57:37 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29478; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 06:57:02 -0700 Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 06:57:01 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: "malcolm.scott@which.net" Cc: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Floor slabs and vapor barriers In-Reply-To: <369490B3.155EF8A5@which.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5566 Malcolm: We generally insulat with R20 rigid expanded polystyrene (in our case "TerraFoam") if the project is located in the Canadian prairie region. Jorg Ostrowski ___________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: > > There has been no mention of the affect of the insulation under these > concrete floor slabs. Isn't everybody insulating under the slabs? > Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 09:09:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06463 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:09:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22513; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:04:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:01:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22238 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:01:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix2.interkan.net (root@unix2.interkan.net [12.13.79.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22226 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:01:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from interkan.net (pm3-mhk54.interkan.net [12.13.79.84]) by unix2.interkan.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/jpw@interkan.net) with ESMTP id IAA22719; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:02:01 -0600 Message-ID: <3694BE51.63484439@interkan.net> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 08:01:54 -0600 From: Tamara & Bill Dorsett Reply-To: dorsett@interkan.net Organization: Health Options X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: spray cellulose pricing References: <3693B60D.AAAEF4BC@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5567 Chuck, in Kansas we can have a 2x4 wall sprayed for $.75/sq ft. or about $.214/bd. ft. Fiberglass or rock wool blanket blown behind the mesh runs about $.50/sq. ft. or about $.143/bd. ft. What are the advantages of one over the other? I question the value of cellulose due to moisture accumulation and might feel more comfortable with rockwool in as much as it doesn't absorb moisture. While diffusion may not be the premier mode of moisture transport, toward the end of a long wet winter, I can still imagine it at least reducing R-value if not doing structural damage. Thanks for any insights anyone has. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Can some of the members of this list give my a price range for spray > cellulose installations, board foot prices would be most helpful? > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 09:27:31 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA06867 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:27:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23601; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:23:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:19:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23143 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:19:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix2.interkan.net (root@unix2.interkan.net [12.13.79.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA23139 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:19:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from interkan.net (pm3-mhk75.interkan.net [12.13.79.105]) by unix2.interkan.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/jpw@interkan.net) with ESMTP id IAA23918; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:20:12 -0600 Message-ID: <3694C290.5C78A472@interkan.net> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 08:20:02 -0600 From: Tamara & Bill Dorsett Reply-To: dorsett@interkan.net Organization: Health Options X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "malcolm.scott@which.net" CC: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Floor slabs and insulation References: <369490B3.155EF8A5@which.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5568 We do with Dow board under the slab around the perimeter and down to frost line on the footings. Traditionally we've used Dryvet to protect the foam, but I'm having second thoughts with the class action suits against the makers of these shells as well as with the potential of termite infestation now that long lasting chemicals are off the market. Does anyone have suggestions of safer better ways of protecting against these chritters? malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: > There has been no mention of the affect of the insulation under these > concrete floor slabs. Isn't everybody insulating under the slabs? > Malcolm Scott > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 09:45:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07104 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:44:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25227; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:40:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:36:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24547 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:36:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24543 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:36:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA13417 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:37:10 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:37:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa4-p39.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.167]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA23390 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:36:44 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sa4-p39.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.167] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:36:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3694C5E5.7C5CBA15@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:34:13 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: spray cellulose pricing References: <3693B60D.AAAEF4BC@dreamscape.com> <3694BE51.63484439@interkan.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5569 I question the value of cellulose due to moisture > accumulation and might feel more comfortable with rockwool in as much as > it doesn't absorb moisture. While diffusion may not be the premier mode of > moisture transport, toward the end of a long wet winter, I can still > imagine it at least reducing R-value if not doing structural damage. > Bill, Thank you for the info on pricing. As for the moisture issue, it is my understanding that the R value of cellulose is actually less effected by moisture than the other two. The argument goes: rock wool and fiberglass may not actually absorb moisture directly into the fiber, they can hold huge volumes of water in suspension between the fibers. Because cellulose fibers are composed of air cells the fibers are not good conductors themselves, as are mineral and glass fibers, the same volume of water will reduce the effective R value of the latter two products to a much greater extent. The logic being that the mineral and glass insulations rely soley on the trapped air between the fibers, if this is saturated with water (a great conductor), the effective R value is reduced drastically. Cellulose is also said to release this water more readily than the other fibers, thereby it will return to it's full R more quickly. If you doubt the assertion that fiberglass will hold water, try pouring a cup of water onto fiberglass bat. Not very scientific, but sometimes a visual demonstration helps. John Straube or one of the other researchers here: Do you have any research references on this issue, these are the cellulose industry lines, but I've never seen anything to dispute them. I'd be curious to know if they are either verifiable or disproven. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 09:54:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07237 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:54:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25978; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:49:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:45:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25564 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:45:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25556 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:45:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-25-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.25]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11985; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:46:28 -0500 Message-ID: <3694C8C2.4CCC25B8@together.net> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:46:26 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dorsett@interkan.net CC: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: spray cellulose pricing References: <3693B60D.AAAEF4BC@dreamscape.com> <3694BE51.63484439@interkan.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5570 Perhaps this pricing data from my 1995 RS Means estimating guide may help with the discussion of blown in cellulose insulation. For attics/ ceilings with open access, 6.5 inches, R-22, per square foot, in US 1995 dollars: Materials: $ .22 S/F Labor: .16 Equip: .09 Total, w/ Overhead & Profit: $ .59 S/F For same, except 10 7/8 thick, total is $1.01 S/F For wall installation @16" o.c., including drilling two 1" dia holes, add to the above prices: Masonry: $ 2.59 S/F Wood siding: $1.31 S/F Hope this helps. Tom Anderson South Burlington, Vermont ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 10:01:06 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07292 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:01:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26934; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:52:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26323 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:52:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26307 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:52:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA14136; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:53:24 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:53:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa4-p39.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.167]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA00099; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:52:58 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sa4-p39.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.167] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:52:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3694C9B4.539F6326@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:50:28 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tom Anderson CC: dorsett@interkan.net, Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: spray cellulose pricing References: <3693B60D.AAAEF4BC@dreamscape.com> <3694BE51.63484439@interkan.net> <3694C8C2.4CCC25B8@together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5571 Thanks Tom, but it's wet/damp spray pricing I'm searching for. Do you trust Means? I've always found them to be on the low side. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 10:01:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07302 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:01:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27024; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:57:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:53:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26424 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:53:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (CE5Gz5YT2GYfkwee5maX2A2lxFrUVO5u@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26411 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:53:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (v/v1s2ErWX8Edm2TOQecLGZMlJjPRBaf@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA14041; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:53:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA14986; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:53:34 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <3694CA6C.35BC0E93@gs.net> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 08:53:33 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "malcolm.scott@which.net" CC: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Floor slabs and vapor barriers References: <369490B3.155EF8A5@which.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5572 Insulation under a slab is really only needed if you are planning to use hydronic heating in the floor. On the other hand I highly recommend the use of a vapor barrier under the slab to stop water vapor from moving through the slab. But as Dennis Miller say's "I could be wrong" Steve "malcolm.scott@which.net" wrote: > There has been no mention of the affect of the insulation under these > concrete floor slabs. Isn't everybody insulating under the slabs? > Malcolm Scott > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 11:04:17 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08524 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:04:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01026; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:59:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:55:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00626 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:55:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from pct.edu (wpgate.pct.edu [12.4.137.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00617 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:55:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from Penn#032#College-Message_Server by pct.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:58:36 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 10:58:25 -0500 From: "Steve McCarthy" To: Subject: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAA00620 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5573 Hi folks I do among other things, retrofit attic air sealing and insulation. Lately I have been faced with a lot leaky non-IC can lights. I just priced an IC rated, airtight, compact flourescent replacement and my cost is $75. Sometimes screw in flourescents will work in some cans but the biggest problem with existing cans is air leakage and the inability to insulate over the non-IC units. Most customers choke at the cost of light replacement. Are there alternatives to replacement that are safe and result in a tight insulatable can? I appreciate the thoughts on theory and codes but what I need and want are ideas from practitioners not theorists. What works? Thanks, Steve ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 11:29:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08957 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:29:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02980; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:24:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:20:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA02518 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:20:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA02513 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:20:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-200-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.200]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19631; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:21:23 -0500 Message-ID: <3694DF01.C7CED691@together.net> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 11:21:21 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: dorsett@interkan.net, Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: spray cellulose pricing References: <3693B60D.AAAEF4BC@dreamscape.com> <3694BE51.63484439@interkan.net> <3694C8C2.4CCC25B8@together.net> <3694C9B4.539F6326@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5574 Chuck: I use RS Means for estimating commercial/institutional mechanical systems....HVAC projects. Usually, my estimates are usually within a +/- 15% of actual contractor bids. I do use various subjective fudge factors when applying the Means data..... but overall, my estimates using Means are slightly higher than actual bids. This is fine with me.... nothing worse than under-estimating costs and having an upset client. Tom Anderson Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Thanks Tom, but it's wet/damp spray pricing I'm searching for. > > Do you trust Means? I've always found them to be on the low side. > > Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 11:52:57 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09422 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:52:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04613; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:48:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:44:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04226 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:44:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04222 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:44:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp015.cd.centuryinter.net (ppp011.cd.centuryinter.net [209.142.147.83]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA01362; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:42:09 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36951470.57E0@centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 12:09:20 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Reply-To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca CC: Greenbuilding , Dale Fallon Subject: Re: GBlist: spray cellulose do it yourself References: <3693B60D.AAAEF4BC@dreamscape.com> <3694147E.6E1@centuryinter.net> <3694324F.BEC80055@atlasinc.on.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5575 Neil Spiegel wrote: > > Hi Keith, > > How was it as a do-it-yourself job? > Is it pretty straight forward? It was fairly simple. One thing I did that helped was to mark all the truss members at the intended height for insulation so it was easy to see where to spray. > > Blow the perimeter then work your way out? Since I have a low pitch roof and the attic is not easy to get around in, we drywalled the ceiling and insulated at the same time so I always had easy access. > Did it take a long time? It took three of us 2 1/2 days to drywall and insulate the entire ceiling. > Did you seal around the edges before you started? I'm not sure what you mean by seal the edges. I built rafter vents from a soffit vent up to a foot or so above the final level of insulation. These were built so the insulation (mostly) couldn't get out the soffit vent. > What protective gear did you wear? I wore a paint respirator that I got for another job. The manufacturer also recomended goggles, which would be a good idea. My eyes did get irritated at times. I wouldn't do this job without a GOOD respirator. > > Any obvious gotchas you wish you new about before you did it? Don't try to mix chopped straw with the cellulose it clogs the blower. Other than that it was pretty easy, just dusty. We opened all the doors and windows and ran fans to help clear the air. Dust would not be as big a problem if your ceiling was already done. > > Any comments are appreciated. > > Neil > > Keith Breuker wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > I just finished blowing in 18" of cellulose over 830 sq ft. ceiling...I live in Northern Michigan 20 miles SW of Traverse City. > > > > Keith > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 12:00:37 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09549 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:00:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05495; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:52:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05040 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:52:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05031 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:52:09 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id SLMCa04317; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:52:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:52:17 EST To: smccarth@pct.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5576 Steve, One alternative to IC-rated airtight electrical fixtures for recessed can- lights suggested by Joe Lstiburek in his "Builder's Guide" (where the can light fixture is exposed to an accessible attic space) is to build an airtight enclosure, with air space around the can. It can be made from OSB, Plywood, or Gypsum board. All joints to be tightly sealed with caulking or duct sealing mastic and all penetrations to be sealed. Sufficient air space should be allowed around fixture for cooling. Insulation can then be placed completely over the entire unit without gaps in the thermal envelope. The air tight box also continues the air-barrier effect of tight drywall construction at the ceiling, between the attic and the rooms below. Recessed lights can also be installed in soffits which are blocked and sealed completely at the top to allow for gapless thermal envelope above. I have heard that certain brands of existing recessed fixtures provide inexpensive conversion kits which consist of an airtight sleeve and replacement finish ring. Other brands do not. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone: 510-841-1039 fax: 510-841-1008 iaqkibbey@aol.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- In a message dated 1/7/1999 8:03:04 AM, smccarth@pct.edu writes: >Hi folks >I do among other things, retrofit attic air sealing and insulation. Lately >I have been faced with a lot leaky non-IC can lights. I just priced an >IC rated, airtight, compact fluorescent replacement and my cost is $75. >Sometimes screw in fluorescents will work in some cans but the biggest >problem with existing cans is air leakage and the inability to insulate >over the non-IC units. Most customers choke at the cost of light replacement. > > >Are there alternatives to replacement that are safe and result in a tight >insulatable can? > >I appreciate the thoughts on theory and codes but what I need and want >are ideas from practitioners not theorists. What works? > >Thanks, Steve > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 12:05:03 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09629 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:05:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05999; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:00:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:56:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05501 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05493 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:56:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA07649; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:57:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA08839; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:57:05 -0500 Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:57:04 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com Reply-To: Renewable News Network To: Tamara & Bill Dorsett Cc: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , Schawe@aol.com, "Ross M. Donald" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Tubular Skylights In-Reply-To: <368EFF4B.EE818A32@interkan.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5577 Dear Jorg, Tamara, and Bill, Thanks for picking up on these sub-threads. I detect the interest, as being, 1) 46"/36" x 76" stock sliding glass door lites for passive solar; and 2) standard 4' x 8' air heating collector modules. I can't pursue these topics with any kind of immediate interactivity. Doesn't anybody have to go to work, here? This list is way too active, for me. We may want to rename the Subject:, in order to keep track of what we want to focus upon, since this appears to be drifting away from Re: GBlist: Tubular Skylights. I started using stock double glazed lites (after experimenting with several recycled units,) when I bought about 100 units to get a good price. I was also ordering textured low iron glass in 46" x 96" x 5/32" and larger sizes, for solar water walls and in 46" x 96" x 3/16" stock sizes for the pre-manufactured Solar Utilities air heating panels. At that time, I had some purchasing clout, storage space, a workshop, clients, and bankable prospects. ...someting like a business life. On Sat, 2 Jan 1999, Tamara & Bill Dorsett wrote: > Ross, like you we've designed around standard 46"/36" x 76" stock sliding > glass door size lites for sunrooms. Recently however, I've compared the > prices of standard fixed lite over awning window combinations with what > it cost for me to do the work of framing, triming etc. of our sliding > door lites and I can't make a I used both fixed glass and operating units. > compelling case for my clients to pay me to do it. Theirs are clad and mine > need the long cycle of repainting; There would be that requirement to paint the outside wood. I suppose a metal or vinyl cap could be found. > I think mine are tight but not as tight as > their cladding seals; A fixed unit in a silicon bed (messy) or installed with a butyl strip (sticky) did not not leak any air or water, at least, in my experience. The operating units almost always did, some, depending on the quality of the units. The more expensive the window systems, the more economically advantageous the site built fixed glazing. > mine need supplemental ventilation but theirs vents in > all weather and locks down as tight as my fixed stick built units. Sunspaces always want venting, bigtime. My idea was to make them nature spaces, although there might be practical differentiations between a finished living room type solaria versus a working greenhouse. The big thing, of course, is that if the space is vented to deal with over-heating, its too late - no can do, sorry. I just like lots of natural air, especially when its perfect - 70 degrees F. and 50% R.H. > From now > on, I think I will recommend a real factory standard - a store bought window. As always, it depends. For single glazed solar storm windows, which I'm doing now, I'm reusing the 46x76 lites taken out by local glass companies, or homeowners, who leave them at the dump, er, recycling center. The seals have broken, they're all fogged up - so, I separate the two pieces of glass, clean them up, and cover South facing dormer windows with a Wintertime solar window box greenhouse. Needless to say, there is no commercial potential. ...except in marketing terms: I break even, roughly, on the solar storm windows, but then get free press in the local rags and showing slides of real work, as opposed to fantastic and speculative statistics. Plus, working cheap, using available materials, with the Boy Scouts, the local Exchange Club, and the environmental groups, I get to promote my "Sol Kitchen" Solar Cooker Coffee Can Kits or the Solar Utilites PV upgrades to the solar hot water systems out there. > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > You said:"(All my air heating collectors are in standard 4' x 8' modules; As for the air heating solar collector panels, this is another matter altogether. I concluded long ago, and still feel strongly, that solar rooftops and solar walls can be designed most easily to use air as a heat tranport medium, as was proven early on by the practical solar field work in the 70s. At one point, there were 40 companies manufacturing commercially available solar air heating packages. Nick Pine tells me that Jade Mountain, while carrying solar air heating collectors in their catalogue, has never sold one. ...which doesn't mean they are not still out there. Richard Komp, In Maine, heats his 100% solar house with passive solar wall thermosyphoning air panels - I like to fan drive the air for greater efficiency - and that all is part of the Solar Utilites Attic Cooling and Whole House PV Powered Ventilation System, the primary application being attic cooling (see "Solar Utilties Network" and Michael Potts) and the extended and collateral applications, being, PV fan drivers for Winter time solar forced warm air and Summer time air-to-water solar heat excahngers to get solar hot water. (This whole approach is a cold climate system, where the biggest and therefore number one energy budget problem item is space heat. Using the expensive flat plate air heaters, in the Summer, instead of letting them sit there doing nothing, just makes them more economical, overall.) Yours truly, Ross encl: > > all my passive solar is around 46"/36" x 76" stock sliding > > glass door size lites.)" __________________________________________________________________________ > > Ross: Without making it a blatant advertisement, can you simply decribe > > the above? Are they commercially available for what kind of applications? > > Thanks you for considering my request. Jorg Ostrowski > > > > _ > > Send press releases, announcements, and notices of interest to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 To receive the Environmental Review, via e-mail, send the message, "subscribe er-list" to , for Solar Utilities info, send, "subscribe solar_utilities" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 12:16:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09886 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:16:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06982; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:11:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:07:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06392 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:07:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06381; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:07:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp015.cd.centuryinter.net (ppp024.cd.centuryinter.net [209.142.147.96]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA07422; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 11:04:49 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <369519A8.5945@centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 12:31:37 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Reply-To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve McCarthy CC: strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5578 Steve McCarthy wrote: > > Hi folks > I do among other things, retrofit attic air sealing and insulation. Lately I have been faced with a lot leaky non-IC can lights. I just priced an IC rated, airtight, compact flourescent replacement and my cost is $75.... Are there alternatives to replacement that are safe and result in a tight insulatable can? > I'm not sure if this answers your question but I recently discovered on the DOE web site that they have selected four US vendors to offer sub compact flourescent lighting at very low prices for one year to stimulate the market. These lights are very close to the size of regular incadescent light bulbs including the ballast and cost around $8 or $9 US. You must buy at least six. I placed an order in late December and have not yet recieved anything yet. I'm sorry that I can't find any specifics right now but I was searching on "compact flourescent lighting" when I found it. Keith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 12:28:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10102 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:28:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08054; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:23:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:18:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA07428 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:18:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07424 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:18:07 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id KQAWa23181; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:17:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:17:42 EST To: ledbalon@gs.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Floor slabs and vapor barriers Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5579 In a message dated 99-01-07 09:55:48 EST, ledbalon@gs.net writes: << Insulation under a slab is really only needed if you are planning to use hydronic heating in the floor. >> I think I must question that --- a cold concrete slab - colder than the air temperature will indeed cause condensation Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 12:36:46 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10319 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:36:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08880; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:32:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:27:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08387 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:27:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08378 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:26:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:24:21 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E228@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 12:24:20 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5580 I believe the DOE website is http://www.pnl.gov/cfl/ > I'm not sure if this answers your question but I recently > discovered on > the DOE web site that they have selected four US vendors to offer sub > compact flourescent lighting at very low prices for one year to > stimulate the market. These lights are very close to the size of > regular incadescent light bulbs including the ballast and > cost around $8 > or $9 US. You must buy at least six. I placed an order in late > December and have not yet recieved anything yet. > > I'm sorry that I can't find any specifics right now but I was > searching > on "compact flourescent lighting" when I found it. > > Keith > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 13:22:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11182 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:22:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA12307; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:17:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:13:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA11933 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:13:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (root@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.253.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11927 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:13:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from leo.davisenergy.com (dcn89.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.253.89]) by wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.8.7/DCN8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14304 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:14:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:14:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901071814.KAA14304@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us> X-Sender: lirainer@dcn.davis.ca.us X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Leo Rainer Subject: Re: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5581 At 11:52 AM 1/7/99 EST, IAQKibbey@aol.com wrote: >Steve, > >One alternative to IC-rated airtight electrical fixtures for recessed can- >lights suggested by Joe Lstiburek in his "Builder's Guide" (where the can >light fixture is exposed to an accessible attic space) is to build an airtight >enclosure, with air space around the can. It can be made from OSB, Plywood, >or Gypsum board...... I have seen this suggestion a number of times, including in the "Builder's Guide" and it looked like a great idea, but on the one project where I have tried to implement it it was vetoed by the building department based on the NEC. Section 410-66 (b) states: "Installation. Thermal insulation shall not be installed within 3 in. (76 mm) of the recessed fixture enclosure, wiring compartment, or ballast and shall not be so installed above the fixture so as to entrap heat and prevent the free circulation of air." This was interpreted to mean that you could not cover over the top of the fixture. Has anybody else had experience retrofitting non-IC recessed fixtures in this way? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Leo Rainer Email: lirainer@davisenergy.com Davis Energy Group Phone: 530.753.1100 123 C Street Fax: 530.753.4125 Davis, CA 95616 Web: http://www.davisenergy.com ============================================================================ Energy Analysis * Mechanical Design * Product Engineering ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 14:09:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12025 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:09:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15943; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:05:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:01:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15525 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:01:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15521 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id NAA0000000486; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 13:02:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990107190502.006df2e0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 13:05:02 -0600 To: "Steve McCarthy" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5582 . Most customers choke at the cost of light replacement. > >Are there alternatives to replacement that are safe and result in a tight insulatable can? Shopping at IKEA in Chicago a couple of weeks ago, I found their compact flourescent lights for only $5. Anyone out there have experience with these that should make me wary of buying them by the case? And you can get inexpensive cans in many of the larger places like Home Depot and such. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 14:47:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12897 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:47:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18656; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:42:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:38:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA18131 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:37:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18120 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:37:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.31]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 5398700 ; Thu, 07 Jan 1999 11:39:23 -0800 Message-ID: <36950CCC.3A36076D@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 11:36:45 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IAQKibbey@aol.com CC: smccarth@pct.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5583 There is a poly boot made for this purpose (some codes require it) and I've seen a more rigid plastic box as well. Rarely use a pot so don't know manuf. or brands of hand. John IAQKibbey@aol.com wrote: > Steve, > > One alternative to IC-rated airtight electrical fixtures for recessed can- > lights suggested by Joe Lstiburek in his "Builder's Guide" (where the can > light fixture is exposed to an accessible attic space) is to build an airtight > enclosure, with air space around the can. It can be made from OSB, Plywood, > or Gypsum board. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 14:49:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12934 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:49:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18869; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:44:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:40:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA18408 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:40:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA18404 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:40:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.31]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 5399400 ; Thu, 07 Jan 1999 11:42:23 -0800 Message-ID: <36950D85.6A317172@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 11:39:49 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Leo Rainer CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation References: <199901071814.KAA14304@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5584 There should be a section that includes compliance for an approved insulated pot - air flow is to and from the interior space. John Leo Rainer wrote: > At 11:52 AM 1/7/99 EST, IAQKibbey@aol.com wrote: > >Steve, > > > >One alternative to IC-rated airtight electrical fixtures for recessed can- > >lights suggested by Joe Lstiburek in his "Builder's Guide" (where the can > >light fixture is exposed to an accessible attic space) is to build an airtight > >enclosure, with air space around the can. It can be made from OSB, Plywood, > >or Gypsum board...... > > I have seen this suggestion a number of times, including in the "Builder's > Guide" and it looked like a great idea, but on the one project where I have > tried to implement it it was vetoed by the building department based on the > NEC. Section 410-66 (b) states: > > "Installation. Thermal insulation shall not be installed within 3 in. (76 > mm) of the recessed fixture enclosure, wiring compartment, or ballast and > shall not be so installed above the fixture so as to entrap heat and prevent > the free circulation of air." > > This was interpreted to mean that you could not cover over the top of the > fixture. Has anybody else had experience retrofitting non-IC recessed > fixtures in this way? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Leo Rainer Email: lirainer@davisenergy.com > Davis Energy Group Phone: 530.753.1100 > 123 C Street Fax: 530.753.4125 > Davis, CA 95616 Web: http://www.davisenergy.com > ============================================================================ > Energy Analysis * Mechanical Design * Product Engineering > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 15:31:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14068 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:31:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21982; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:26:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:23:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21585 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:23:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21579 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.8] (pm1a8.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.104]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA09858 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:23:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:23:52 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) [207.136.199.8] from pm1a8.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.104] 207.136.199.104 Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:23:52 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <369519A8.5945@centuryinter.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5585 At 12:31 PM -0800 1/7/99, Keith Breuker wrote: >I'm not sure if this answers your question but I recently discovered on >the DOE web site that they have selected four US vendors to offer sub >compact flourescent lighting at very low prices for one year to >stimulate the market. These lights are very close to the size of >regular incadescent light bulbs including the ballast and cost around $8 >or $9 US. You must buy at least six. I placed an order in late >December and have not yet recieved anything yet. We've obtained samples of some of these products and will be testing them and reporting on our findings in EBN. An initial concern of mine is that none of this new generation of very compact, spiraled, CFLs are made by the big-three lamp manufacturers. One of the companies that makes them, Lights of America (which, of course, does not actually make anything here), was mentioned in the recent Consumer Reports article on CFLs as having a much shorter life than what is claimed. I have initial worry about these spiral CFLs that they could give compact fluorescent lighting a bad name--all over again--after the U.S. and European companies finally gave CFLs credibility. But we'll see how they work first. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 16:19:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA15099 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:19:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25787; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:15:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:11:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA25315 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:10:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA25309 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:10:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA14777; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:11:31 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:11:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.198.23.206] (uA5-p14.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.206]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA24905; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:11:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:11:07 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: uA5-p14.dreamscape.com [207.198.23.206] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:11:07 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding , iaq@onelist.com From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: Terry Brennan's footloose in San Francisco Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5586 Hi folks, I find I am going to be in the San Francisco area with nothing specific to do on January 27, 28, 29 and 30. I'd be interested in working (teaching or looking at problem buildings) or visiting listers. If you have any thoughts, I'd like to hear them. Actually, LA would do as well because I need to be there on the first of February. - Terry Terry M. Brennan Camroden Associates 7240 East Carter Road Westmoreland, New York 13490 315-336-7955 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 18:08:00 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA17174 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:07:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02938; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:59:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA02556 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:59:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA02552 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 17:59:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-09-185.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.129.185]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA12214; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:00:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:02:47 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE3A67.EEE24000.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Steve McCarthy'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 16:20:00 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5587 On Thursday, January 07, 1999 10:58 AM, Steve McCarthy [SMTP:smccarth@pct.edu] wrote: > I do among other things, retrofit attic air sealing and insulation. Lately I have been faced with a lot leaky non-IC can lights. I just priced an IC rated, airtight, compact flourescent replacement and my cost is $75. Sometimes screw in flourescents > Are there alternatives to replacement that are safe and result in a tight insulatable can? > > I appreciate the thoughts on theory and codes but what I need and want are ideas from practitioners not theorists. What works? This depends on your labour rate and the situation. In old houses with joists deeper than the penetration of the can, I have placed precut pieces of 16" square 3/8" plywood over the adjoining joists, and blocking between rafters, followed by sealing with a can of urethane foam. You just cut the batt to fit, and in the one situation where we has some concern about heating of the pot light I used perlite to pour around the light before sealing the "box". Rockwool is also ridiculously freproof. An alternative and often more exconomical solution is to remove and cover the old potlight hole with a $15 surface mount fixture and tightly seal the old opening from the top side. I think both these solutions are in the $20 to $30 range depending onlabour costs. Cheers from a part-time practioner and theorist ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 18:38:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA17619 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:38:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA04612; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:33:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:29:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04048 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:29:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.privat.kkf.net (privat.kkf.net [212.63.32.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04031 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:29:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from privat.kkf.net (mi-dial121.privat.kkf.net [212.63.37.121]) by mail.privat.kkf.net (8.8.8/8.8.3) with SMTP id AAA22723 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:28:30 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199901072328.AAA22723@mail.privat.kkf.net> Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:29:50 +0100 From: "Alexander.Neumann" Reply-To: "Alexander.Neumann" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: spray cellulose pricing X-Mailer: AK-Mail 3.0b [ger] (unregistered) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id SAA04036 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5588 (...) > cellulose is actually less effected by moisture than the other two. In a structure you would have the same moisture problems with either insulation material, difference is only what happens next. In my understanding, in mineral fibres, moisture would just fall out and sit there until preferrably it dries out the same way it got in or damages the structure. In cellulose, moisture would be distributed evenly, reducing the loss of insulative value and speeding up the drying process. (so, "appeasing" the conflict) Cellulose is a "naturally breathing" material with a variable moisture content and in this concern has more in common with wood or clay than with fibrebatts. > John Straube or one of the other researchers here: Do you have any research references on this issue, these are the cellulose industry lines, but I've never seen anything to dispute them. I'd be curious to know if they are either verifiable or disproven. Right now I have no stories which could run as "verifiable research" other than my trust in the german material testing procedures, which approve the above stated. When they finally grant some material some "norm" , it´s pretty sure they even downsized the results of the worst case scenarios just to be on the safe side.( e.g. DIY is still prohibited for all liscensed cellulose) But with talking about cellulose all the while, I was wondering: Does cellulose equal cellulose? Is it basically the same quality with varying additives? Or are there real "good and bad" brands? For me it´s too late anyways, gonna have the last part of wall and roof blow-in tomorrow... Yours, Alex ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 18:38:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA17628 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:38:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA04654; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:34:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:30:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04138 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:30:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04130 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:30:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.magma.ca (mail2.magma.ca [206.191.0.218]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA07976 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:30:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (port71.magma.ca [206.191.5.71]) by mail2.magma.ca (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA06451 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:30:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901072330.SAA06451@mail2.magma.ca> X-Sender: stephen@mail.magma.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 18:27:25 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Stephen Thwaites Subject: GBlist: Re: site built windows Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5589 At 11:25 PM 1/2/99 -0600, Tamara & Bill Dorsett wrote: > Ross, like you we've designed around standard 46"/36" x 76" stock sliding >glass door size >lites for sunrooms. Recently however, I've compared the prices of standard >fixed lite over awning window combinations with what it cost for me to do the >work of framing, triming etc. of our sliding door lites and I can't make a >compelling case for my clients to pay me to do it. Theirs are clad and mine >need the long cycle of repainting; I think mine are tight but not as tight as >their cladding seals; mine need supplemental ventilation but theirs vents in >all weather and locks down as tight as my fixed stick built units. From now >on, I think I will recommend a real factory standard - a store bought window. I've always sympathized with owner-builders who try to build their own fixed windows. If they can buy the glass at close to trade prices and don't count their labour, then they can save some money. - It's rare that the glass is even half the cost of a fixed window. But to get a window that lasts with minimal ongoing attention, the glazing cavity should be pressure equalized and the exterior should be clad. This tough to do with only wood, caulking and paint. What we've experimented with (1 customer so far) is supplyinng a piece of our fiberglass fixed window for the sill portion of a site built fixed window. The material cost is still cheaper than a factory window, the part of the window that gets savaged by the elements (the sill) is "maintenance free", and the glazing cavity is drained. My concern is that we would need to move alot of relativley low cost (compared to super windows) product to justify the production of a the very necessary how to booklet to accompany the product. What do you think? Is there a market for something like this????? Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ottawa, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 19:04:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA17991 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:04:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05856; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:00:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:56:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05487 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:56:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com ([207.46.181.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05483 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:56:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from h9qjy - 153.35.255.64 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:57:00 -0800 Message-ID: <003901be3a99$881a8800$40ff2399@h9qjy> From: "Patti" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 15:57:13 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5590 Hmmm, saw your comment on "Lights of America" and did a double-take. I purchased two of their lights. One went in a recessed can and blew out in two days. The other went in a standard lamp and lasted only a few months (the package said 10 years). I wanted to replace as many lights as possble in our present house with CFL's and I also have (had?) plans for their installation in our new house, but I've been twice burned. They are not cheap. I'm not sure what this all means; if it's just this manufacturer, the fixtures they were plugged into, or what. Patti pmeeks@msn.com > ....... One of the companies that makes them, Lights >of America (which, of course, does not actually make anything here), was >mentioned in the recent Consumer Reports article on CFLs as having a much >shorter life than what is claimed. I have initial worry about these spiral >CFLs that they could give compact fluorescent lighting a bad name--all over >again--after the U.S. and European companies finally gave CFLs credibility. >But we'll see how they work first. > >Alex Wilson, Editor >Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 19:16:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA18143 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:16:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA06462; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:12:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:08:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA06115 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:08:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA06110 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 19:08:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id SAA0000026958; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 18:09:02 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990108001200.006f86c4@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 18:12:00 -0600 To: "Alexander.Neumann" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Re: GBlist cellulose vs rockwool Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5591 I thought, if moisture was a concern, that rock wool was the better product to use--our Canadian friends have mentioned it, in its board form, as good exterior insulation. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 20:08:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA18843 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:08:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA08536; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:04:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:00:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA08269 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:00:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA08265 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:00:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA06969; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:01:05 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:01:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA9-p50.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.242]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id UAA23330; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:00:39 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sA9-p50.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.242] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:00:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36955823.CC72BD7D@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 19:58:11 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" CC: "'Steve McCarthy'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation References: <01BE3A67.EEE24000.jfstraube@golden.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5592 John Straube wrote: I have placed precut pieces > of 16" square 3/8" plywood over the adjoining joists, and blocking between > rafters, followed by sealing with a can of urethane foam. You just cut the > batt to fit, and in the one situation where we has some concern about > heating of the pot light I used perlite to pour around the light before > sealing the "box". Rockwool is also ridiculously freproof. John, It was my understanding that fire problems caused by insulating over recessed lighting cans was a result of the wiring or fixture overheating and shorting out, I would think that pouring vermiculite around the fixture and sealing and insulating the box around it would be exactly the wrong thing to do. Am I wrong about the fire source in this case? That was the scenario that was constantly drummed in to us as insulation contractors, by the trade journals, manufacturers and codes people. If we are assuming that this is a safe solution because we are switching to CFL's, then how do we guarantee that the next tenant/owner won't switch back to incandescent? Chuck Hinckley_ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 21:43:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA19976 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:43:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA11938; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:39:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:35:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA11684 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:35:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from medusa.twinoaks.org (medusa.twinoaks.org [206.239.101.132]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA11677 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:35:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ixchel (206.239.101.140) by medusa.twinoaks.org (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Thu, 07 Jan 1999 22:05:31 +0000 Message-ID: From: "McCune " To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 21:37:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #437 Reply-to: McCune In-reply-to: <199901072111.QAA25335@solstice.crest.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5593 0000,0000,FF00> Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 06:51:27 -0700 (MST) > From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" < > Subject: GBlist: wood based boilers > > McCune: Can these burn sawdust? I am looking for a high efficiency (ie. > 94% or better combustion efficiency) boiler for hydronic heating of floors > in a commercial (millwork factory) strawbale project. Jorg Ostrowski > Jorg-- These boilers are designed for cordwood, residential scale, larger machine they offer is 140KBtuh. They'll burn oak kiln dried scrap OK in my experience but apparently not as cleanly in early stages of burn as with cordwood [20%mc plus/minus]. Never tried sawdust; manufacturer makes no mention of it. I'd guess it would do poorly as the sole fuel, but would do fine admixed with larger fuel pieces. If this is a large enough factory it seems likely there are industrial equipment suppliers that could help you. --------------------------- McCune Twin Oaks Community 138 Twin Oaks Rd Louisa VA 23093-6337 540 894 5126 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 22:08:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20266 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:08:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA13317; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:04:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:00:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA13031 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:00:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13023 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:00:25 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ842135; Thu, 7 Jan 99 20:01:05 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA13748; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:00:34 -0700 Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:00:34 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: McCune Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: sawdust boilers In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5594 McCune: Thanks for your response. Does anyone know of a high efficiency wood boiler that will also burn sawdust for the project noted below? JDO _________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, McCune wrote: > > > McCune: Can these burn sawdust? I am looking for a high efficiency (ie. > > 94% or better combustion efficiency) boiler for hydronic heating of floors > > in a commercial (millwork factory) strawbale project. Jorg Ostrowski > > Jorg-- These boilers are designed for cordwood, residential scale, > larger machine they offer is 140KBtuh. They'll burn oak kiln dried > scrap OK in my experience but apparently not as cleanly in early > stages of burn as with cordwood [20%mc plus/minus]. > > > Never tried sawdust; manufacturer makes no mention of it. I'd > guess it would do poorly as the sole fuel, but would do fine > admixed with larger fuel pieces. > > > If this is a large enough factory it seems likely there are industrial > equipment suppliers that could help you. > > > > > > > > --------------------------- > McCune > Twin Oaks Community > 138 Twin Oaks Rd > Louisa VA 23093-6337 > 540 894 5126 > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 22:18:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20369 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:18:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA13824; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:13:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:10:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA13470 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:09:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13466 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:09:53 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ253776; Thu, 7 Jan 99 20:10:10 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA98976; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:10:00 -0700 Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 20:10:00 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Patti Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation In-Reply-To: <003901be3a99$881a8800$40ff2399@h9qjy> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5595 Patti: You ask what it means? It means you take your lamps and story and politely request a free replacement. If they don't want to do it right away, then ask for double. It is for mutual interest. JDO ________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Patti wrote: > > Hmmm, saw your comment on "Lights of America" and did a double-take. I > purchased two of their lights. One went in a recessed can and blew out in > two days. The other went in a standard lamp and lasted only a few months > (the package said 10 years). > > I wanted to replace as many lights as possble in our present house with > CFL's and I also have (had?) plans for their installation in our new house, > but I've been twice burned. They are not cheap. > > I'm not sure what this all means; if it's just this manufacturer, the > fixtures they were plugged into, or what. > > Patti pmeeks@msn.com > > > > ....... One of the companies that makes them, Lights > >of America (which, of course, does not actually make anything here), was > >mentioned in the recent Consumer Reports article on CFLs as having a much > >shorter life than what is claimed. I have initial worry about these spiral > >CFLs that they could give compact fluorescent lighting a bad name--all over > >again--after the U.S. and European companies finally gave CFLs credibility. > >But we'll see how they work first. > > > >Alex Wilson, Editor > >Environmental Building News > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 22:45:57 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20960 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:45:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA15201; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:41:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:37:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA14649 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:37:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA14625 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:37:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-40-228.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.135.228]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA00803; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:37:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:40:42 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE3A8E.C1FCF4A0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'ashcreek@dreamscape.com'" , Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: RE: cellulose Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:31:02 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5596 On Thursday, January 07, 1999 9:34 AM, Chuck Hinckley [SMTP:ashcreek@dreamscape.com] wrote: > John Straube or one of the other researchers here: Do you have any > research references on this issue, these are the cellulose industry Since you asked ... Actually, Chuck, you have described it well. Basically, cellulose is a hygroscopic material, meaning it can store alot of water vapour in it. On a dry mass basis, something like 8% of its mass at 50%RH, and 18 o 20% at 80 to 90%RH, and can store several times its own weight if exposed to liquid water. Glass and rock fibre will adsorb less than 1% of their weight at 95%RH, but as you state, they can store a huge amount of liquid water. Why do we care? Frankly, if cold-weather condensation occurs due to diffusion or air leakage, liquid or solid moisture will be deposited on the surface downstream of the insulation. It will then be absorbed into the insulation material. This occurs with both types of insulations and I cannot see why one has an advantage. The thermal reistance of both will be affected, but how much is tough to say from lab data. I want the R-value to go down so that the wall dries faster and returns to normal. While the behaviour of mineral fiber insulations are somehow sold as an advantage, I dont get it. Hygroscopic insulations like cellulose may store lots of vapour before they move outside and so the RH variations in the wall will be smoothed out or damped-- this can be an advantage. One odd benefit of cellulose that a number of wall studies have found is that the borate fire and rot treatment in the insulation laches when the wall gets wet. Wood framing that was wet and saturated from various causes like rain penetration and built-in moisture and should have been rotten was not because of the leached borate. On the downside, John Bower gave some pretty scary stories about cellulose dust causing all manner of problems, and Rockwool adds some really impressive fire resistance. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 7 22:46:00 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA20965 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:45:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA15186; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:41:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:37:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA14628 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:37:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA14623 for ; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:37:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-40-228.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.135.228]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA00824; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:37:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:40:50 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE3A8E.C6819260.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'ashcreek@dreamscape.com'" Cc: "'Steve McCarthy'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:36:51 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5597 On Thursday, January 07, 1999 7:58 PM, Chuck Hinckley [SMTP:ashcreek@dreamscape.com] wrote: > It was my understanding that fire problems caused by insulating over > recessed lighting cans was a result of the wiring or fixture overheating > and shorting out, I would think that pouring vermiculite around the > fixture and sealing and insulating the box around it would be exactly > the wrong thing to do. Am I wrong about the fire source in this case? Maybe we are talking about different pot-lights. The ones I am thiking of are open to the bottom and air can circulate around the bukb. There is not much dount that the case/can would run hotter, but how much? Yes, the can will get hotter, but who cares. The electrical connection is not a problem for heat as far as I can see. Hopefull someone has a better answer, but I know that almost all of the local potlights used in the last 5 to 10 years around here are always covered with insulation. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 00:30:55 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA22343 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:30:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA18904; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:26:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:22:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA18646 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:22:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA18642 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:22:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA25665 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:23:05 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:23:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa7-p54.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.182]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id AAA18174 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:22:40 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sa7-p54.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.182] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 00:22:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36959591.EB189B68@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 00:20:17 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation References: <01BE3A8E.C6819260.jfstraube@golden.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5598 John Straube wrote: > Hopefull someone has a better answer, but I know that almost all of the > local potlights used in the last 5 to 10 years around here are always > covered with insulation. Recessed canister lights produced in the last several years are designed to be insulated, I thought the discussion was about older style canisters. Those installed several years back were not able to survive the intense heat produced inside the canister when insulation was installed over them. Any number of fires were blamed on faulty insulation jobs, as a result the insulation industry became very vocal about avoiding this situation. Perhaps some clarification of the rating of the lights in question would help here, if they are in a new installation and are rated for insulation, then your system is quite apropos. If they are in an older home or of unknown specs, then it would probably be best to replace them I would think. Thanks for the data on moisture in different insulations, always nice to see the data. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 05:26:14 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA24557 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 05:26:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA27035; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 05:20:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 05:16:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA26766 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 05:16:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA26762 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 05:16:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-32.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.32]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 04:58:10 -0500 Message-ID: <3696046C.3CB0@cyberzone.net> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 05:17:17 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "malcolm.scott@which.net" CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Floor slabs and vapor barriers References: <369490B3.155EF8A5@which.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5599 > Malcolm Scott wrote: > There has been no mention of the affect of the insulation under these > concrete floor slabs. Isn't everybody insulating under the slabs? I guess not everybody is insulating under concrete slabs. Why? I don't know about other sections of the country, but typically around here, "they just don't do it that way." As for me, I would certainly love to increase the insulation all around the envelope, but the first cost issue comes to the surface, and the house will be ok for now. I can add other insulation in other locations later to increase the overall R value of the envelope. But then, all of life is full of difficult choices and decisions- would it be as much fun if the building process were any different? :-> Regards, Dan Harazim ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 08:21:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA25558 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:21:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01266; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:13:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00811 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:12:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00803 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:12:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp021.cd.centuryinter.net (ppp036.cd.centuryinter.net [209.142.147.108]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA21731; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:12:43 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <369634CC.3E1D@centuryinter.net> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:39:40 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Reply-To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: coblist@deatech.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: [Fwd: sustainability project] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5600 Keith Breuker wrote: > > Hello All, > > I recently met Jayne Walker who organized a visit by people interested > in sustainability to my Straw Bale house in Northern Michigan. She owns > 40 acres in nearby Leelenau county. Her goal is to develop a center for > sustainability that would include sustainable agriculture, sustainable > building and sustaining the inner self. > > I have offered my assistance in this project and have carefully reviewed > the business plan. An alliance has already been developed with nearby > Michigan State University which is an agricultural university. I was > told by a student there that they offer a course on straw bale > construction. > > The reason I am posting to these lists is that we are looking for > funding sources that would allow the freedom to pursue truly sustainable > methods without the restrictions often placed by bankers or grant > funding. > > More detailed information is available to anyone with interest in this > project. > > Keith Breuker ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 09:28:21 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA26845 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:28:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA04230; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:23:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:19:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA03828 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:19:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA03816 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 09:19:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA30349 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:19:25 -0600 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:16:58 -0600 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: cellulose insulation and borate leaching Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:16:56 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5601 > -----Original Message----- > Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 22:31:02 -0500 > From: John Straube > Subject: GBlist: RE: cellulose > > > One odd benefit of cellulose that a number of wall studies have found is > that the borate fire and rot treatment in the insulation laches when the > wall gets wet. > John - Is this true? The reference below would seem to dispute this idea...... - Patrick Pierquet TI Permanency of boric acid used as a fire retardant in cellulosic insulation AU Chiou, N.; Yarbrough, D.W. SO Energy and buildings (1990) v.14, no.4, p.351-361, figs.,tabs.,refs. AB The rate of loss of the chemical fire retardant, boric acid, from loose-fill cellulosic insulation due to sublimation has been determined. Apparent sublimation pressures for boric acid have been measured as a function of temperature and relative humidity using a flow system. A direct termination was also made by the rate of mass transfer of boric acid a cellulosic insulation to the air above the insualtion. These data were used in a numerical model to show that the loss of boric acid from cellulosic insulation is insignificant at 70 degree C and relative humidity near 100 %. The redistribution of boric acid and borax in a commercial cellulosic insulation due to vibration was studied by analyzing specimens taken from the top and the bottom of horizontally applied material. Long periods of vibration failed to result in statisticallly significant chemical redistribution. (-z-) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 10:38:06 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28354 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:38:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07837; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:33:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:29:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07264 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:28:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07254 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:28:39 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id OUDCa03482 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:28:54 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <203e7047.36962436@aol.com> Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:28:54 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5602 On Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:14:18 -0800 (PST) From: Leo Rainer Wrote: " Thermal insulation shall not be installed within 3 in. (76 mm) of the recessed fixture enclosure, wiring compartment, or ballast and shall not be so installed above the fixture so as to entrap heat and prevent the free circulation of air." This was interpreted to mean that you could not cover over the top of the fixture. Has anybody else had experience retrofitting non-IC recessed fixtures in this way? Leo: I think he's got you there. However, if one were to seal it as suggested by Joe Lstiburek in his "Builder's Guide and then install compact flourescent (which give off considerably less heat) I'm sure that you wouldn't have a dangerous situation (the newer non-IC cans have a heat sensor which shuts off the power to the bulb before it gets too hot). However I would label the cans with a red permanent marker that they should only have the bulbs replaced with another fluorescent. Otherwise your insurance agent would disown you. I attempt to talk all my clients out of recessed cans since they cut off an appreciable anount of light anyway, and they are a BIG hole in the air barrier (drywall). I once nearly had frostbite in my fingers attempting to change a light bulb in a cathedral ceiling in the winter, and this in a new house. As for slab insulation thread, most (90%?) of your heat loss is around the perimeter, so insulate the heck out of the edge and 4 feet in towards the center. In heated slabs the recommendation is usually for the perimeter at a minimum. Whether to insulate the rest of the slab or not seems to depend more on how fast the slab has to warm up. In a situation where the slab is kept at a constant temperature all winter it seems less necessary to insulate the entire slab since the heat loss to ground now will be returned at a later time. This of course may not be true in more extreme climates. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Inc. Contractors, Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 10:38:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28359 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:38:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07852; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:33:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:28:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07252 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07247 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 10:28:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (1Cust193.tnt8.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.23.193]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA04438; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 07:29:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <369623E2.21A3@earthlink.net> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 07:27:30 -0800 From: Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Floor slabs and vapor barriers References: <369490B3.155EF8A5@which.net> <3696046C.3CB0@cyberzone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5603 Dan and Pam wrote: > > > Malcolm Scott wrote: > > There has been no mention of the affect of the insulation under these > > concrete floor slabs. Isn't everybody insulating under the slabs? > > I guess not everybody is insulating under concrete slabs. Why? I don't > know about other sections of the country, but typically around here, > "they just don't do it that way." Here in California the energy efficiency standards are codified in Title 24 of the Civil Code. We frequently hire engineers to check our projects with compliance. I once queried one such engineer about the general lack of under-slab insulation. He asserted that most energy loss at ground level is through the perimeter, and thus perimeter insulation is mostly called for. The only time I ever installed under-slab insulation was for a walk-in cooler. We probably did it all wrong because during the pour the panels kept trying to float to the top! seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 12:15:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00612 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:15:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13791; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:10:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:06:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13284 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:06:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13275 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:06:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id LAA0000001974; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:07:35 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990108171034.006d42f0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 11:10:34 -0600 To: dmelchert@earthlink.net, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Floor slabs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5604 " We probably did it all wrong because during the pour the panels kept trying to float to the top!" Yeah, we had the same problem when we insulated under a brick floor we laid last spring. It rained a couple of times before the brick got down and the darned stuff floated. We had to set it all over again both times. What a pain, but kind of funny too. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 12:15:21 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00617 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:15:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA13745; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:10:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:06:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13232 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:06:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.gorge.net (mail.gorge.net [205.162.195.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13228 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 12:06:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from gorge.net ([208.14.145.221]) by mail.gorge.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-54909U8000L800S0V35) with ESMTP id AAA184 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 08:58:42 -0800 Message-ID: <36963D12.DBD8EF68@gorge.net> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 09:15:04 -0800 From: Daniel Dancer Organization: ZeroCircles Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: "To grid or not to grid" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5605 Thanks to all who responded regarding my query as to whether to hook up to the hydropower of the Columbia River Basin or go off the grid on my rather remote, rural property. The responses were excellent and well thought out. 5 respondents suggested I do so...one did not pointing out the hidden costs of employing and maintaining the various systems required. I'm leaning strongly to forgoing the hydro and setting up an independent system as it suits my nature for one thing. My final question is this: How much of a "techie" does one have to be to keep the current state of the art systems running smoothly? While I'm a bit enclined in that direction I've heard some horror stories here and there. Are those days over? Can it really work that smoothly? Looking forward to some simple basic answers and guidelines here. Many thanks, Daniel Dancer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 14:30:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA03645 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:30:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22507; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:25:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:21:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22027 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:21:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from seahorse.epud.net (root@seahorse.epud.net [205.240.25.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22021 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:21:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([209.102.14.168]) by seahorse.epud.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA26483 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:06:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901081906.LAA26483@seahorse.epud.net> From: "Dean Still" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: [Fwd: sustainability project] Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 11:29:37 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5606 To Keith Breuker and Jayne Walker, As regards funding for your project, I would recommend starting a school. It took five years at Aprovecho Research Center, where I work, but now we generate all operating funds from the internship program. Having students around keeps you on the bounce, as well. Keeps you honest since this generation loves to expose opinion. Good Luck! Dean Still A.T. Coordinator ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 14:37:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA03822 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:37:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23051; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:32:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:28:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22676 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:28:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22668 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:28:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-0-61.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.0.61]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA04756 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 14:29:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36965E53.CE19317C@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:36:51 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: CADD Software Suggestions Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5607 Hi All, I am looking for a CADD program to start doing some drawing and design. I am currently very skilled at organizing thoughts on paper in a structured format but I realize that a picture in the case of building design is irreplaceable. (I'm just getting into this building design stuff.) I am hoping for a pointer or two to a couple of CADD programs that you can suggest. I have heard of the venerable AutoCAD (release 14) and would consider it. (Or a CADD web-site that discusses the different software options from a residential building design perspective would be great too.) Relevant info: I am a very computer literate and capable individual. I have played with things like 3D home architect before with a lot of success until it wouldn't let me do things. (And of course when any real detail is needed it is pretty useless i.e. building envelope, structure, materials, just to name a few.) I am mostly interested in residential buildings. I would like to be able to print small in draft form and only go to a 'service bureau' when I am finished (i.e. I will not have a huge fancy printer.) I'm new to it and might want to start with something simple and then move to a more sophisticated program. I could take an AutoCAD course at one of the local community colleges, though I often find those courses sort of frustratingly slow. (they assume computer illiteracy) That's all, any help is greatly appreciated. Neil -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 18:15:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA07909 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:15:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA06261; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:10:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:05:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05740 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:05:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05736 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:05:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-31-11.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.11]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA05085; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:06:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:09:35 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE3B32.0C15A020.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Patrick Pierquet'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: RE: cellulose insulation and borate leaching Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:09:30 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5608 On Friday, January 08, 1999 9:17 AM, Patrick Pierquet [SMTP:ppierquet@Teltech.com] wrote: > > One odd benefit of cellulose that a number of wall studies have found is > > that the borate fire and rot treatment in the insulation laches when the > > wall gets wet. > > > John - Is this true? The reference below would seem to dispute this > idea...... > AB The rate of loss of the chemical fire retardant, boric acid, from > loose-fill cellulosic insulation due to sublimation has been > determined. Apparent sublimation pressures for boric acid have been > measured as a function of temperature and relative humidity using a ................. > the loss of boric acid from cellulosic insulation is insignificant at > 70 degree C and relative humidity near 100 %. The redistribution of What they studied is undoubtedly true. I am talking about field walls exposed to water. 100%RH wont do it -- you need actual liquid moisture movement, not vapour flow alone as the references is studying. In any practical wall exposed to variable conditions, 100%RH is likely to result in liquid movement. The results I am thinking of are late 80's studies with test houses in Alberta and the Maritimes as well as recent walls tested by Bill Rose. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 18:59:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA08418 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:59:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA08585; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:54:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:51:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08272 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:50:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08260 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:50:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-6-216.cyberzone.net [209.150.6.216]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 18:32:38 -0500 Message-ID: <3696C4E9.1CDE@cyberzone.net> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 18:54:33 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GrenSheltr@aol.com CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Floor slabs and vapor barriers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5609 > << I guess not everybody is insulating under concrete slabs. Why? I don't > know about other sections of the country, but typically around here, > "they just don't do it that way." >> > > > Dan -- aren't you in Ceonnecticut ??? WOW -- are you really NOt insulating > slabs ??????? here in PA I sure do and the house I built in Vermont had the > whole footer etc wrapped including under the slab now this termite thing > has me a bit panicked Linda Lloyd Linda, No, I don't know of any home builders installing insulation under the slab, and we usually don't in our commercial and institutional projects, although I did this year in a daycare center with radiant heat. I assume home builders do the math to arrive at the required overall U value of .05 and I intend to press the builder of my house on some alternate approaches to the building envelope. I think it remains a good idea, though, but I'm still amazed at the good ideas not implimented and for no other reason than they're just not implimented. I've just coined a new phrase I'm calling "The Big Disconnect", related to the gulf that exists between what our group talks about and what we consider "good practice," and what I see and have do deal with in construction, development, et al. Sorry about the termite question, but I don't have any first-hand experience there! Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 19:33:59 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08814 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:33:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11785; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:29:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:25:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10849 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:25:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA10831 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:24:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from reg-53-0196.direct.ca ([216.66.142.96] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #18) id 0zymDx-0006ky-00 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:25:53 -0800 Message-ID: <3696852B.A2B4D712@direct.ca> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:22:35 -0800 From: Richard Kadulski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-SYMPA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation & CFLs References: <199901080700.CAA22229@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5610 > From: "Patti" > > Hmmm, saw your comment on "Lights of America" and did a double-take. I > purchased two of their lights. One went in a recessed can and blew out in > two days. The other went in a standard lamp and lasted only a few months > (the package said 10 years). > > I'm not sure what this all means; if it's just this manufacturer, the > fixtures they were plugged into, or what. > I've used GE & Phillips lamps for a number of years and they have lasted a long, long time. Be aware that lamp performance ratings are based on the half life. In other words, the life span is based on the amount of time half the lamps are expected to last. i.e., a 1000 hour lamp does not guarrantee 1000 hours of life - but that statistically they will last that long. Some wioll burn out much sooner, some much later.Of course, a compact fluorescent should outlast standard incandescent by a long time. It sounds like a manufacturing problem. > It was my understanding that fire problems caused by insulating over > recessed lighting cans was a result of the wiring or fixture overheating > and shorting out, I would think that pouring vermiculite around the > fixture and sealing and insulating the box around it would be exactly > the wrong thing to do. Am I wrong about the fire source in this case? > That was the scenario that was constantly drummed in to us as insulation > contractors, by the trade journals, manufacturers and codes people. If > we are assuming that this is a safe solution because we are switching to > CFL's, then how do we guarantee that the next tenant/owner won't switch > back to incandescent? > > Chuck Hinckley_ Yes, the concern is overheating creating a fire hazard. The older cans are meant to be leaky to dissipate the heat. The fire authorities here accepted the air sealing providing that the box around the can was sufficiently big. As John Straube suggested, creating a box that spans from joist/rafter/truss to joist/rafter/truss with a lid over top, maintaining the required clearance (that information should be available from suppliers as I don't think it's changed, and applies to internal locations also) will do the job. Then you can insulate to your hearts content overtop. What you've done, in effect, is brought the can inside the heated envelope of the house. > Maybe we are talking about different pot-lights. The ones I am thiking of > are open to the bottom and air can circulate around the bukb. There is not > much dount that the case/can would run hotter, but how much? Yes, the can > will get hotter, but who cares. The electrical connection is not a problem > for heat as far as I can see. John, it's not the electrical connection that's of concern, but the combustible framing and insulation material. If you don't allow the heat to dissipate (and that's why those leaky cans were designed that way) you can get hot temperatures that can lead to ignition. Richard Kadulski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 19:34:04 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08819 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:34:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11800; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:29:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:25:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10866 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:25:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA10861 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:25:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from reg-53-0196.direct.ca ([216.66.142.96] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #18) id 0zymDz-0006l6-00 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:25:55 -0800 Message-ID: <369690AE.C59C3163@direct.ca> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 15:11:42 -0800 From: Richard Kadulski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-SYMPA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Geothermal Heat Pump Summary References: <199812280700.CAA06728@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5611 > From: Norbert Senf > Subject: Re: GBlist: Geothermal Heat Pump Summary? -Reply > > At 10:10 AM 24/12/98 -0500, nspiegel wrote: > > >You make the argument sound like such a no-brainer. Like why would anyone > >ever consider a > >heat-pump. Do you consider the cooling side of the problem? Is the 'summer' > >temperature in > >Saskatchewan never hot enough that it requires (or that people might want) > >indoor > >temperatures reduced? > > Here in the Ottawa area, we have some 95F days in summer, but nights are > generally cool enough that if your house has mass and is shaded, you don't > need air conditioning. However, lots of people have it because their > house/landscaping doesn't perform anywhere near what's possible - > understandable in an old house, wasteful in a new house (IMHO). > Ultimately, it is always an issue of matching the design to the climate at hand. In most areas it should be possible, without going to heroic measures, to build a house that does not need significant heating or cooling. > Do you think in a wetter climate with hot humdid > >summers and cold > >humid winters (and more overcast) that a heat pump might make a lot of > >sense? (like say > >the BC coast?) (one could say just live with the heat, but one could say > >just live with > >the cold too.) > > Parts of the BC coast I've seen (Vancouver and the Gulf Islands) have a > pretty mild heating and cooling climate compared to Ottawa. However, older > houses can use more energy than houses here in Ottawa because people don't > tend to bother with storm windows, etc. I'd fix the leaks in the bucket > first before installing a bigger faucet. > The BC coast technically does not have a cooling need. We've seen the increased use of cooling systems, largely due to bad design - including large skylight areas (guaranteed to overheat a house). Good heating contractors in this area will insist on cooling if they see large skylights which are too commonly used. Passive cooling (i.e. bringing cool night air into the house, minimizing inlet of hot daytime air) works very well in this climate. I realize the same can't be said for other climates - like the eastern seaboard and south-east, with the hot humid summers. But then again, remember that the Benefit (?) of mechanical cooling is only a recent development. How did our ancestors survive all those eons without it? > >Second question: > >Any where I can get info on the Saskatchewan House and its history (i.e. > >design, > >life-cycle maintanence issues.) I'm in Ontario and I am sure a lot of what > >was done there > >would apply here (Not quite as much sun unfortunately.) With that project > >coming up on 25 > >years I would really like to here what its been through. > The big innovations were superinsulation, an airtight envelope and a > prototype HRV. It was built by the Saskatechewan Research Council to > demonstrate conservation technology, and is the basis for R-2000 and the > related technologies that we see today. Interestingly, the bureaucratic > overseers wanted it to be a solar demonstration house, and insisted on > installing a $60,000 active solar system (they weren't convinced that the > conservation measures would work - nobody had ever done it before). So, > people tour the house and think that it is solar heated, when in fact the > heating load is virtually zero. > Part of the reason for insistence on solar was that the project was funded as a "solar" project, so they had to see "solar" and that was a time when solar initiatives were done as what I would call a " black box substitution" in other words, you need so many BTU, you collect so many per square foot, so you need to have so many sq.ft. of collector area, rather than considering passive options. It was also a time before the full potential of passive solar was fully understood. It is interesting to note that the solar system never really functioned well on that house. However, the official opening was during a typical cold prairie day, and when all the officials were in the house, it was severely overheating from body heat alone! For many years it has been a private residence. The follow up to the Saskatchewan Conservation House was the R-2000 Program, and the latest development done in a coordinated manner were the Advanced Houses, 9 of which were built across Canada, in varying locations in 1993. (Jorg Ostrowksi's house should be considered as the 10th, as it was designed and considered for that program, but it wasn't built as an official "Advanced House") Each reflected local climate and industry concerns. The target was for these houses to use less than 50% of the R2000 energy target, or 25% of a standard house built to code. It was proven that you can build houses that are extremely energy efficient, and made to look just like other houses in their neighborhood (not to scare too many people). Richard Kadulski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 19:34:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08824 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:34:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11823; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:29:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:25:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10892 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:25:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA10878 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:25:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from reg-53-0196.direct.ca ([216.66.142.96] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #18) id 0zymDv-0006kn-00 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:25:51 -0800 Message-ID: <369681BE.F54121D7@direct.ca> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 14:07:58 -0800 From: Richard Kadulski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-SYMPA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: RE: Floor slabs and vapor barriers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5612 Steve said: "Insulation under a slab is really only needed if you are planning to use hydronic heating in the floor. On the other hand I highly recommend the use of a vapor barrier under the slab to stop water vapor from moving through the slab. But as Dennis Miller say's "I could be wrong" Please keep in mind that heat always goes from hot to cold. Ground temperatures are always cooler than heated spaces, so if your are heating a space, and have a slab on grade, it is always a good idea to place insulation under the concrete, regardless whether it is a radiant heated slab or not. Of course, if you have radiant heating, then it makes sense to place a higher level of insulation under the slab. You can always questions how much insulation. Here in British Columbia, the code required R 12 under a heated slab. My gut sense is that a higher level may be appropriate, especially in wet soils (high water table areas) but there is next to no monitored information on this as yet - just a lot of anecdotal and trail and error information. The lack of monitored information has delayed the development of effective heat loss formulas that can be used for calculating optimum insulation levels. I have R 20 under a radiant heated floor slab in my own house (although code is R12), and always encourage clients and builders to use more than the code minimum, especially for heated slab conditions. I can't help being amazed that in Sweden, the norm for insulation under a slab on grade in residential construction is the equivalent of R30 or more - of course, they are using the insulation as a moisture/vapour barrier also. Richard Kadulski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 19:34:53 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08833 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:34:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12022; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:30:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:26:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11033 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:26:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA11019 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:25:58 -0500 (EST) From: Marcoplos@aol.com Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id NHWWa25630; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:26:05 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 19:26:05 EST To: smccarth@pct.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5613 I've been using "Juno" IC fixtures that can be completely covered with insulation and come with a gasket which seals it up to prevent air flow through it. They are about $5 more per unit. Juno Lighting 847-827-9880 Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 21:11:03 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA09954 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:11:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16187; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:06:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:02:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15872 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:02:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15862 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:02:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5 [134.117.136.25]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id VAA29584; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:02:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id VAA24408; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:02:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 21:02:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901090202.VAA24408@freenet5.carleton.ca> From: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re: sawdust boilers Cc: jdo@ucalgary.ca Reply-To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5614 on Thu, 7 Jan 1999 "Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: > Does anyone know of a high efficiency wood boiler that will > also burn sawdust for the project noted below? JDO Hello Jorg; Admittedly, the following idea may seem a little twisted at first but on second (or third) thought it begins to appear quite feasible so may be worth mentioning. I think that rather than try to burn sawdust (it doesn't, it kinda just sits there and gives you smouldering looks)... or trying to find some special appliance that will ...you might consider rigging up a hydraulic press affair to compress the sawdust, making it as dense or more dense than the wood from which it originated. A binder would probably be needed to hold the sawdust together. Animal dung comes to mind as being a possibility. Y'all Albertans have no shortage of bull$#!+ right ? So the process might be something like the following: (1) Make up a dough of sawdust and dung (not too fresh and not too high in moisture content, of course). Maybe something like an old industrial-grade bread dough mixer would work... treadle-powered of course , as part of the millwork's employees lunch-time fitness program. (2) Place the dough into the hydraulic press (maybe it's something like a Cinva-ram ... manually or womanly- operated) and compress the dung + sawdust into "logs" aiming for a density of 35-40 lbs/ft^3. (3) Place the dung-'n-dust logs into a solar kiln to bake-off excess moisture. The "kiln" might be a couple dozen panels of salvaged tempered glass IGUs leaned-up against a south wall of the millwork shop (done in a tasteful,architecturally-correct fashion, of course.) (4) Viola ! Odourless, kiln-dried, high-octane, turbo-powered firewood. (or perhaps more correctly, turdo-powered) I would guess that the above dung-'n-dust logs could be burned very efficiently in any standard high-efficiency wood-fired boiler... or any wood-burning appliance for that matter. (Boy, must be Friday eh ?) -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 22:42:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA10861 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:42:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA18870; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:38:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:34:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA18607 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:34:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA18602 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:34:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA12787 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:35:04 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:35:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa2-p52.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.52]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA25167 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:08:53 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sa2-p52.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.52] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:08:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3696C7BB.992A72D9@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 22:06:35 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Sawdust boilers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5615 Jorg, One of my competitors, about ten miles away, has installed a sawdust boiler. His millwork factory is several orders of magnitude larger than mine (probably in the order of 15,000-20,000 sq ft, while I work in 2500 sq ft), he also generates his own electricity and net meters it. The name of his co. is Columbus w/w and his phone # is 607-674-4546, his name is Mike Tomaselli. You're welcome to drop my name, I don't think he'll hang up on you. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 23:06:28 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11055 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:06:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA19706; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:02:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:58:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19437 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:58:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19433 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:58:08 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ820715; Fri, 8 Jan 99 20:58:57 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA33964; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:58:10 -0700 Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:58:10 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: "Robert W. Tom" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: re: sawdust boilers In-Reply-To: <199901090202.VAA24408@freenet5.carleton.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5616 ----- Message Text ----- Rob: Thanks for th appetizing thoughts. I will savour what you wrote and try to digest it. I will see if the client will bite. Certainly this is food for thought. It is still Friday. Jorg _________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Robert W. Tom wrote: > > on Thu, 7 Jan 1999 > "Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: > > > Does anyone know of a high efficiency wood boiler that will > > also burn sawdust for the project noted below? JDO > > Hello Jorg; > > Admittedly, the following idea may seem a little twisted at first > but on second (or third) thought it begins to appear quite > feasible so may be worth mentioning. > > I think that rather than try to burn sawdust (it doesn't, it > kinda just sits there and gives you smouldering looks)... or > trying to find some special appliance that will ...you might > consider rigging up a hydraulic press affair to compress the > sawdust, making it as dense or more dense than the wood from > which it originated. > > A binder would probably be needed to hold the sawdust together. > Animal dung comes to mind as being a possibility. > Y'all Albertans have no shortage of bull$#!+ right ? > > So the process might be something like the following: > > (1) Make up a dough of sawdust and dung (not too fresh and not > too high in moisture content, of course). > > Maybe something like an old industrial-grade bread dough > mixer would work... treadle-powered of course , as part > of the millwork's employees lunch-time fitness program. > > (2) Place the dough into the hydraulic press (maybe it's > something like a Cinva-ram ... manually or womanly- > operated) and compress the dung + sawdust into "logs" > aiming for a density of 35-40 lbs/ft^3. > > (3) Place the dung-'n-dust logs into a solar kiln to bake-off > excess moisture. > > The "kiln" might be a couple dozen panels of salvaged > tempered glass IGUs leaned-up against a south wall of the > millwork shop (done in a tasteful,architecturally-correct > fashion, of course.) > > (4) Viola ! Odourless, kiln-dried, high-octane, turbo-powered > firewood. (or perhaps more correctly, turdo-powered) > > I would guess that the above dung-'n-dust logs could be burned > very efficiently in any standard high-efficiency wood-fired > boiler... or any wood-burning appliance for that matter. > > (Boy, must be Friday eh ?) > > -- > Rob Tom > ---------- * ------------ > be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca > Kanata, Ontario, Canada > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 23:28:22 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11244 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:28:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA20632; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:23:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:20:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA20102 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:19:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20092 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:19:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.183]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 6130800 ; Fri, 08 Jan 1999 20:39:55 -0800 Message-ID: <3696D88F.A2A6290F@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 20:18:23 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca, "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: re: sawdust boilers References: <199901090202.VAA24408@freenet5.carleton.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5617 Now if I did know you better I would say your tongue was imbedded somewhere in your cheek. Sawdust burners were actually fairly common in a more resourceful point of our history (corn husk burners, etc.). There is definitely a lot of equipment out there to fit the bill, either for manufacturing logs, pellets or for burning dust but I like the dung recipe. I did once pay money (pence actually) for someone to deliver dung to my door (by horse and wagon no less - kind of a closed loop in LCA terms). tgif bcjs Robert W. Tom wrote: > on Thu, 7 Jan 1999 > "Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: > > > Does anyone know of a high efficiency wood boiler that will > > also burn sawdust for the project noted below? JDO > > Hello Jorg; > > Admittedly, the following idea may seem a little twisted at first > but on second (or third) thought it begins to appear quite > feasible so may be worth mentioning. > > I think that rather than try to burn sawdust (it doesn't, it > kinda just sits there and gives you smouldering looks)... or > trying to find some special appliance that will ...you might > consider rigging up a hydraulic press affair to compress the > sawdust, making it as dense or more dense than the wood from > which it originated. > > A binder would probably be needed to hold the sawdust together. > Animal dung comes to mind as being a possibility. > Y'all Albertans have no shortage of bull$#!+ right ? > > So the process might be something like the following: > > (1) Make up a dough of sawdust and dung (not too fresh and not > too high in moisture content, of course). > > Maybe something like an old industrial-grade bread dough > mixer would work... treadle-powered of course , as part > of the millwork's employees lunch-time fitness program. > > (2) Place the dough into the hydraulic press (maybe it's > something like a Cinva-ram ... manually or womanly- > operated) and compress the dung + sawdust into "logs" > aiming for a density of 35-40 lbs/ft^3. > > (3) Place the dung-'n-dust logs into a solar kiln to bake-off > excess moisture. > > The "kiln" might be a couple dozen panels of salvaged > tempered glass IGUs leaned-up against a south wall of the > millwork shop (done in a tasteful,architecturally-correct > fashion, of course.) > > (4) Viola ! Odourless, kiln-dried, high-octane, turbo-powered > firewood. (or perhaps more correctly, turdo-powered) > > I would guess that the above dung-'n-dust logs could be burned > very efficiently in any standard high-efficiency wood-fired > boiler... or any wood-burning appliance for that matter. > > (Boy, must be Friday eh ?) > > -- > Rob Tom > ---------- * ------------ > be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca > Kanata, Ontario, Canada > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 23:29:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11055 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:06:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA19706; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:02:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:58:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA19437 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:58:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA19433 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 22:58:08 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ820715; Fri, 8 Jan 99 20:58:57 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA33964; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:58:10 -0700 Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:58:10 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: "Robert W. Tom" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: re: sawdust boilers In-Reply-To: <199901090202.VAA24408@freenet5.carleton.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5618 ----- Message Text ----- Rob: Thanks for th appetizing thoughts. I will savour what you wrote and try to digest it. I will see if the client will bite. Certainly this is food for thought. It is still Friday. Jorg _________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 8 Jan 1999, Robert W. Tom wrote: > > on Thu, 7 Jan 1999 > "Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: > > > Does anyone know of a high efficiency wood boiler that will > > also burn sawdust for the project noted below? JDO > > Hello Jorg; > > Admittedly, the following idea may seem a little twisted at first > but on second (or third) thought it begins to appear quite > feasible so may be worth mentioning. > > I think that rather than try to burn sawdust (it doesn't, it > kinda just sits there and gives you smouldering looks)... or > trying to find some special appliance that will ...you might > consider rigging up a hydraulic press affair to compress the > sawdust, making it as dense or more dense than the wood from > which it originated. > > A binder would probably be needed to hold the sawdust together. > Animal dung comes to mind as being a possibility. > Y'all Albertans have no shortage of bull$#!+ right ? > > So the process might be something like the following: > > (1) Make up a dough of sawdust and dung (not too fresh and not > too high in moisture content, of course). > > Maybe something like an old industrial-grade bread dough > mixer would work... treadle-powered of course , as part > of the millwork's employees lunch-time fitness program. > > (2) Place the dough into the hydraulic press (maybe it's > something like a Cinva-ram ... manually or womanly- > operated) and compress the dung + sawdust into "logs" > aiming for a density of 35-40 lbs/ft^3. > > (3) Place the dung-'n-dust logs into a solar kiln to bake-off > excess moisture. > > The "kiln" might be a couple dozen panels of salvaged > tempered glass IGUs leaned-up against a south wall of the > millwork shop (done in a tasteful,architecturally-correct > fashion, of course.) > > (4) Viola ! Odourless, kiln-dried, high-octane, turbo-powered > firewood. (or perhaps more correctly, turdo-powered) > > I would guess that the above dung-'n-dust logs could be burned > very efficiently in any standard high-efficiency wood-fired > boiler... or any wood-burning appliance for that matter. > > (Boy, must be Friday eh ?) > > -- > Rob Tom > ---------- * ------------ > be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca > Kanata, Ontario, Canada > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 8 23:51:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11472 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:51:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA21602; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:47:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:43:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA21195 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:43:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA21187 for ; Fri, 8 Jan 1999 23:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.253.25.170] (208.253.25.170) by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:51:42 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: re: sawdust boilers Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 20:48:31 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1296264995-1077763@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5619 I'm not ready to try the dung recipe, but I would like to find a machine to make wood pellets. Any ideas? Bruce S >There is definitely a lot of >equipment out there to fit the bill, either for manufacturing logs, >pellets or for burning dust but I like the dung recipe. ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 05:45:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA13726 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 05:45:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA29249; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 05:41:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 05:37:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA28804 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 05:36:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA28800 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 05:36:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-94.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.94]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 05:18:45 -0500 Message-ID: <36975C7B.1D1C@cyberzone.net> Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 05:41:15 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: CADD Software Suggestions References: <36965E53.CE19317C@atlasinc.on.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5620 Neil, Autocad is a tried and true package, and considered an industry "standard". We use it in our office. It's also extremely expensive and works best with a third-party add-on package tailored to your particular profession. It is also very powerful. We have Softdesk's S7 package. There are a billion other programs, some good, some less so, and most less expensive. But will these programs be around in 5 years? Also, Microstation is another program to look seriously at. We're switching our office over to this program, after a big internal debate and a serious use of political might. I was on the team pitching Autocad 14, so I know we would have been very happy with it. Microstation's a good program, too, but we'll be saddled forevermore with translating our drawings for use by everybody and his brother with whom we share drawings. Having used CADD for 12 years now, I can only say "pick one and get moving!" Regarding Autocad, every school and college in every village in the land offers courses, and it is my understanding that bootleg copies are everywhere, not that I'm encouraging that sort of thing. Autodesk says they're serious about prosecuting owners of bootleg copies, but it's like giving away free drugs - eventually everybody's hooked and then they have to buy anyway! Hope this helps. Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 05:47:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA13732 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 05:47:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA29373; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 05:42:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 05:39:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA28933 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 05:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA28929 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 05:38:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-94.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.94]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 05:20:46 -0500 Message-ID: <36975CF4.6291@cyberzone.net> Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 05:43:16 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: CADD Software Suggestions(corrected) References: <36965E53.CE19317C@atlasinc.on.ca> <36975C7B.1D1C@cyberzone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5621 Neil, Autocad is a tried and true package, and considered an industry "standard". We use it in our office. It's also extremely expensive and works best with a third-party add-on package tailored to your particular profession. It is also very powerful. We have Softdesk's S7 package. There are a billion other programs, some good, some less so, and most less expensive. But will these programs be around in 5 years? Microstation is another program to look seriously at. We're switching our office over to this program, after a big internal debate and a serious use of political might. I was on the team pitching Autocad 14, so I know we would have been very happy with it. Microstation's a good program, too, but we'll be saddled forevermore with translating our drawings for use by everybody and his brother with whom we share drawings. Having used CADD for 12 years now, I can only say "pick one and get moving!" Regarding Autocad, every school and college in every village in the land offers courses, and it is my understanding that bootleg copies are everywhere, not that I'm encouraging that sort of thing. Autodesk says they're serious about prosecuting owners of bootleg copies, but it's like giving away free drugs - eventually everybody's hooked and then they have to buy anyway! Hope this helps. Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 07:30:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA14078 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 07:30:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA01164; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 07:26:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 07:22:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA00851 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 07:21:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA00847 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 07:21:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.208]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 6230300 ; Sat, 09 Jan 1999 04:21:02 -0800 Message-ID: <369749C5.5D6DCEFB@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 04:21:25 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Sullivan CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: re: sawdust boilers References: <1296264995-1077763@irisinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5622 Hi Bruce I don't, but you might get an lead from the following - http://www.pellet.org/ John Bruce Sullivan wrote: > I'm not ready to try the dung recipe, but I would like to find a machine > to make wood pellets. Any ideas? > > Bruce S > > >There is definitely a lot of > >equipment out there to fit the bill, either for manufacturing logs, > >pellets or for burning dust but I like the dung recipe. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com > Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 > Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com > -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 07:36:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA14131 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 07:36:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA01623; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 07:32:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 07:28:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA01290 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 07:28:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01286 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 07:28:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.208]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 6230600 ; Sat, 09 Jan 1999 04:27:21 -0800 Message-ID: <36974B3D.FAAA0193@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 04:27:41 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: re: sawdust boilers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5623 Jorg, here is a reference for perge wood/sawdust boilers - be curious to know efficiency, pricing, etc. (I never followed it up) http://www.perge.fr/perge/gb/gamme/default.html John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 10:21:08 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15364 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:21:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06173; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:16:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:12:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05861 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:12:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (PvyFYdqyjKpbTO/uCO3LC+LybGWRo6E8@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05857 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:12:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (cn5QIcYdo/LV+QkCpCXE3FXpH2uGjJqa@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA08395; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:13:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA05848; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:13:36 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36977219.E8F1A47A@gs.net> Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 09:13:29 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Kadulski CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Floor slabs and vapor barriers References: <369681BE.F54121D7@direct.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5624 If I lived in the cold northlands like you do, you can be assured that there is no way that I would NOT build with insulation in the floor of a heated space. There are two things that you should consider about my comments. First of all the average house here is 5-8 feet below sea level and the water table is about 2-3 feet. Guess what NO one here has basements...Wonder why that is... Two: For those foolish enough to build on slab foundations you had better have some way of keeping that rising water table from permeating the foundation ...eg plastic vapor/water barrier. For those smart people they build their houses upon raised piers. This keeps them high and dry for those days when we get 15 inches of rain in a 24 hour period. As you might imagine we do not have the heating needs that you have. It really is air conditioning loads and dehumidification. Basically I run my a/c about 12 months of the year. Yes I do turn on the heater from time to time. So I suppose that if there were some solutions to making the A/C more efficient for all of the very old housing stock here in town ...Boy would I be interested :) Back to you... and stay warm. Steve Richard Kadulski wrote: > Steve said: > > "Insulation under a slab is really only needed if you are planning to > use > hydronic heating in the floor. On the other hand I highly recommend the > use of a vapor barrier under the slab to stop water vapor from moving > through the slab. But as Dennis Miller say's "I could be wrong" > > Please keep in mind that heat always goes from hot to cold. Ground > temperatures are always cooler than heated spaces, so if your are > heating a space, and have a slab on grade, it is always a good idea to > place insulation under the concrete, regardless whether it is a radiant > heated slab or not. Of course, if you have radiant heating, then it > makes sense to place a higher level of insulation under the slab. > > You can always questions how much insulation. Here in British Columbia, > the code required R 12 under a heated slab. My gut sense is that a > higher level may be appropriate, especially in wet soils (high water > table areas) but there is next to no monitored information on this as > yet - just a lot of anecdotal and trail and error information. The lack > of monitored information has delayed the development of effective heat > loss formulas that can be used for calculating optimum insulation > levels. > > I have R 20 under a radiant heated floor slab in my own house (although > code is R12), and always encourage clients and builders to use more > than the code minimum, especially for heated slab conditions. > > I can't help being amazed that in Sweden, the norm for insulation under > a slab on grade in residential construction is the equivalent of R30 or > more - of course, they are using the insulation as a moisture/vapour > barrier also. > > Richard Kadulski > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 10:24:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15491 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:24:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06545; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:20:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:16:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06129 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:16:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06114 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:16:17 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ672946; Sat, 9 Jan 99 08:17:09 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA31552; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:16:40 -0700 Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:16:39 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Eco-Villages/Sustainable Communities Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5625 Does anyone know of any other (besides "UnPlugged Eco Center" in Michigan) of the above that are in the planning stages? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 10:27:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15518 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:27:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06785; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:23:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:19:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06400 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:19:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (12D9edoMXPFbxLULqxGNbQNWu58Pd8H5@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06392 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:19:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (Cvl4VBWNRD8ek3p+rdJbz2SLJbTjSwKj@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA08573; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:20:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA06068; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:20:20 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <369773AD.79120EF@gs.net> Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 09:20:13 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: CADD Software Suggestions(corrected) References: <36965E53.CE19317C@atlasinc.on.ca> <36975C7B.1D1C@cyberzone.net> <36975CF4.6291@cyberzone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5626 Neil ... when Dan said Auto CADD was expensive that is relative. $5000 - $10000 is pocket change for some. But if you are like most of us it is really very expensive. Steve Dan and Pam wrote: > Neil, > Autocad is a tried and true package, and considered an industry > "standard". We use it in our office. It's also extremely expensive and > works best with a third-party add-on package tailored to your particular > profession. It is also very powerful. We have Softdesk's S7 package. > There are a billion other programs, some good, some less so, and most > less expensive. But will these programs be around in 5 years? > > Microstation is another program to look seriously at. We're switching > our office over to this program, after a big internal debate and a > serious use of political might. I was on the team pitching Autocad 14, > so I know we would have been very happy with it. Microstation's a good > program, too, but we'll be saddled forevermore with translating our > drawings for use by everybody and his brother with whom we share > drawings. Having used CADD for 12 years now, I can only say "pick one > and get moving!" > > Regarding Autocad, every school and college in every village in the land > offers courses, and it is my understanding that bootleg copies are > everywhere, not that I'm encouraging that sort of thing. Autodesk says > they're serious about prosecuting owners of bootleg copies, but it's > like giving away free drugs - eventually everybody's hooked and then > they have to buy anyway! > > Hope this helps. > Regards, > Dan Harazim > Canterbury, CT > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 11:39:57 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16064 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:39:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09083; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:35:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:31:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08809 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:31:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08805 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:31:33 -0500 (EST) From: EcoAmazon@aol.com Received: from EcoAmazon@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id WOPRa05322; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:31:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8e5d0253.36978466@aol.com> Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:31:34 EST To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: sawdust boilers--press your own sawdust Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5627 Someone here tells me that you can glop together sawdust yourself by using melted parafin. Skip the press. Carol ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 11:56:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16203 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:56:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09689; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:52:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:48:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09426 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:48:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09422 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:48:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from aecnet.aecnet.com (1Cust122.tnt13.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.139.122]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA13501; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 08:49:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.0.2.19990109113253.00a72b90@earthlink.net> X-Sender: greenbergman@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 11:51:05 -0500 To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca From: David Bergman Subject: Re: GBlist: CADD Software Suggestions Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <36965E53.CE19317C@atlasinc.on.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5628 At 02:36 PM 1/8/99 -0500, you wrote: >Hi All, > >I am looking for a CADD program to start doing some drawing and design. I am currently >very skilled at organizing thoughts on paper in a structured format but I realize that a >picture in the case of building design is irreplaceable. (I'm just getting into this >building design stuff.).... > Hi, In a previous GBList thread, I recommended DataCAD which I've been using for years. It is much easier to learn and much less expensive than AutoCad and is tailored for architects and builders. AutoCad is a general cad program and you have to have expensive add-ons to make it functional for architecture. DataCad is about $600 and very usable straight from the box. Let me know if you need more info. David Bergman David Bergman Architects/Fire & Water Lighting bergman@cyberg.com http://cyberg.com V 212 475 3106 F 212 677 7291 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 12:03:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16255 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:03:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10083; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:59:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:55:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09834 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:55:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09830 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:55:33 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ928514; Sat, 9 Jan 99 09:56:13 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA23486; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:55:54 -0700 Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 09:55:54 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: EcoAmazon@aol.com Cc: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: sawdust boilers--press your own sawdust In-Reply-To: <8e5d0253.36978466@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5629 Carol: Should one not be worried about the pollution that burning the parfin would cause? Jorg ostrowski _______________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 EcoAmazon@aol.com wrote: > > Someone here tells me that you can glop together sawdust yourself by using > melted parafin. Skip the press. > > Carol > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 12:15:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16345 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:15:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA10855; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:11:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:07:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA10379 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:06:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10370 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:06:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA10576 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:07:50 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:07:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA10-p19.dreamscape.com [209.4.252.211]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA03861 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:07:25 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sA10-p19.dreamscape.com [209.4.252.211] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:07:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36978C37.8A00C6E5@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 12:04:56 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: sawdust boilers--press your own sawdust References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5630 Also seems like a rather costly way to make saw dust burn. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > Carol: Should one not be worried about the pollution that burning the > parfin would cause? Jorg ostrowski > _______________________________________________________________________ > On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 EcoAmazon@aol.com wrote: > > > > > Someone here tells me that you can glop together sawdust yourself by using > > melted parafin. Skip the press. > > > > Carol _________ > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 17:16:31 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21348 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:16:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA21946; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:12:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:07:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA21267 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:07:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21261 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:07:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.43] (ka2-43.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.43]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.9.1+DND/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA13348 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:07:48 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:37:18 -0500 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Cold Batteries? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id RAA21264 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5631 Hallo, all. Looking ahead to the eventual solar system here in New Hampshire. I want to be tied into the grid, net-metering. However, the folks at Real Goods told me that I would still have to have a battery set-up even so if I wanted to have power when the grid was down, even when the sun was shining. Now, I'm building a very small house. (Someday it will get a bit larger, but not for several years at the minimum.) There is no spare room for a battery enclosure. Here in snow country things get pretty cold, and I'm under the impression that batteries must be kept somewhat warm (like above freezing, anyway). So, must I build a pit battery house or somesuch? That would be a real pain on my land; lots of water in the ground, and lots of rocks to dig through. But just about any above-ground structure is going to freeze without supplemental heat, especially if I don't want to take the blankets off of the window and put them back every day. What to do? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 17:16:57 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21357 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22026; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:12:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:08:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA21396 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21388 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:08:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.43] (ka2-43.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.43]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.9.1+DND/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA05551; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:09:10 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <369690AE.C59C3163@direct.ca> References: <199812280700.CAA06728@solstice.crest.org> Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 04:18:04 -0500 To: Richard Kadulski , Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Geothermal Heat Pump Summary Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id RAA21389 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5632 Sgrìobh Richard Kadulski: > I realize the same can't be said for other climates - like the eastern > seaboard and south-east, with the hot humid summers. But then again, > remember that the Benefit (?) of mechanical cooling is only a recent > development. How did our ancestors survive all those eons without it? They didn't. That used to be how we kept the population down. :) -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 17:30:08 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21483 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:30:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18204; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:27:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:23:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17943 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:23:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17939 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:23:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5 [134.117.136.25]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id PAA04832; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:24:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id PAA13661; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:24:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 15:24:25 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901092024.PAA13661@freenet5.carleton.ca> From: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: jdo@ucalgary.ca Subject: GBlist: Re: sawdust boilers--press your own sawdust Cc: ecoamazon@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Reply-To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5633 Hello Carol, Jorg and LogHeads; On the packaged paraffin that I see in the grocery stores, each package bears the logo of some multi-national oil conglomerate. I would conclude from this that paraffin is not as simple as something that which comes out of some orifice on a bee (if in fact that's where beeswax comes out)... whereas the ingredients for a dung 'n dust log are about as simple and unrefined as you can get. Isn't that what this game is all about ? Then there is also the ethical question of supporting a multi-national fossil fuel exploiter. If you're going to do that, why not just buy their gas and burn it and forget about this silly sawdust thang ? Skip the press ? I wouldn't recommend it. Without the density of compacted dust, one may as well be burning newspapers. You theen ? jdo@ucalgary.ca wrote: >Carol: Should one not be worried about the pollution that burning the >parfin would cause? Jorg ostrowski >_______________________________________________________________________ >On Sat, 9 Jan 1999 EcoAmazon@aol.com wrote: >> Someone here tells me that you can glop together sawdust yourself by using >> melted parafin. Skip the press. -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 17:30:08 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21485 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15964; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:21:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:17:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15606 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:17:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15602 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:17:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA07198 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:18:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from esy9.vineyard.net(206.166.158.139) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma007172; Sat Jan 9 14:18:24 1999 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3696046C.3CB0@cyberzone.net> References: <369490B3.155EF8A5@which.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 14:18:17 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Insulation below floor slabs Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5634 One of the few things that we rarely question here is whether to insulate below slabs - we do it automatically. It's inexpensive, impossible to do later, a minor energy saver, and a vital component of dry basements and interiors. Moderating the temperature of slabs is critical to eliminating warm season condensation, particularly in humid regions. John Abrams ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 17:30:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21490 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:30:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14606; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:48:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:45:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14326 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:45:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14322 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:45:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1 (mck-ppp1-06.topher.net [208.199.183.212]) by mail.topher.net (8.9.0/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA22684 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 12:51:49 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: From: "Paul Westbrook" To: "'Greenbuilding List'" Subject: GBlist: Compact Fluorescent Bulbs Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:52:52 -0600 Message-ID: <000401be3c00$5cbb5500$e6b7c7d0@ns1.topher.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5635 > From: "Patti" > > Hmmm, saw your comment on "Lights of America" and did a double-take. I > purchased two of their lights. One went in a recessed can and blew out in > two days. The other went in a standard lamp and lasted only a few months > (the package said 10 years). > > I'm not sure what this all means; if it's just this manufacturer, the > fixtures they were plugged into, or what. > It's the manufacturer. Check the latest edition of Consumer Reports on compact fluorescents. The manufacturer listed above was the only one that did not stand up well to actual testing. I wish we could get Consumer Reports to test even more energy saving, pollution reduction, etc. claims. They do a good job of cutting through the rhetoric and provide actual test data. I've had excellent results with the Phillips Earthlight CFs. Paul Westbrook http://www.enerjazz.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 17:30:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21494 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:30:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14002; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:36:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:32:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA13730 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:32:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from garnet.sover.net (garnet.sover.net [209.198.87.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13725 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:32:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from Alisa (usr0a15.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.15]) by garnet.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA23154; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:32:54 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) Alisa from usr0a15.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.15] 209.198.95.15 Sat, 9 Jan 1999 13:32:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990109133316.00758058@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 13:33:16 -0500 To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca, Greenbuilding From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: CADD Software Suggestions In-Reply-To: <36965E53.CE19317C@atlasinc.on.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5636 >I am looking for a CADD program to start doing some drawing and design. I am currently >very skilled at organizing thoughts on paper in a structured format but I realize that a >picture in the case of building design is irreplaceable. (I'm just getting into this >building design stuff.) Hi there, We have invested $600.00 in Minicad and about $100.00 in a tutorial book and a manual published in LA by Janis Kent , www.improbability.com We do mostly residential and we rely on three-d drawings to communicate a lot of our ideas. MiniCad was very easy to learn to use. The three-d capability is also very easy. Generating perspectives used to take us hours. Now as we develop schematic floor plans we can have isometrics and perspective base drawings from any angle right -away. There are also lots of utilities that you can get to help you make three-d window symbols faster etc. If you mostly use drawings for design and CD's that you submit to a local buioding dept and builders it is a great deal for the money. Unfortunately it is not the industry standard nor will gov't agencies accept Minicad drawings on disk. For a small residential firm like ours it is just the thing. Danny Sagan, Randolph Ctr VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 17:57:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21708 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:57:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA23859; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:53:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:49:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23464 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:49:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23460 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:49:00 -0500 (EST) From: EcoAmazon@aol.com Received: from EcoAmazon@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id FPMRa04795; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:48:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:48:41 EST To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: more about sawdust boilers--wax your own sawdust Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5637 quick responses, y'all: Remember that I mentioned this in response to someone who was suggesting a labor- + tech-intensive way to press sawdust with some equipment (not that I'm saying that's not OK!). My colleague says that the pressures involved to mobilize the lignin (the binder for cellulose) are only available from special extruders like the ones that pelletize sawdust using pressure alone. Sawdust and paraffin makes great fire starters for camping, etc. Paraffin = tech for the masses--old pot, melt paraffin, stir in as much sawdust as you can, pack into a simple mold. He says you get tons of sawdust compacted this way. (He's going to show me later--his stove, I hope.) I'm told that paraffin doesn't burn any dirtier than wood. And shit stinks when it burns. paraffin... baby oil, vaseline, your car, your electricity... paraffin is a hydrocarbon (just a collection of Cs and Hs), says Van Nostrand's oh never mind. (crawling back into the lurker shadows) Carol Steinfeld ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 18:08:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA21782 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:08:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA25055; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:04:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:00:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24254 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:00:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24250 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 18:00:04 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 7HOTa05340 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:59:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 17:59:53 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: RE: Tyvek StuccoWrap Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5638 Friends, Just saw a new product advertised by DuPont, Tyvek stucco wrap. Claims to provide a drainage gap for water managed stucco and dryvit systems. Anyone know anything about it? Why just stucco? How about shingles or vertical wood siding? Is this stuff foing to work to be both the drainage plane and the spacer in one application? Thanks for any input, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 21:04:05 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA23008 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:04:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03119; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:59:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:54:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA02799 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA02794 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-34-177.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.177]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA05973; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:55:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:58:39 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE3C12.D4DEC640.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'FUnger@aol.com'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: RE: Tyvek StuccoWrap Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:18:28 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5639 On Saturday, January 09, 1999 6:00 PM, FUnger@aol.com [SMTP:FUnger@aol.com] wrote: > Just saw a new product advertised by DuPont, Tyvek stucco wrap. Claims to > provide a drainage gap for water managed stucco and dryvit systems. This was launched more than 6 months ago. I know they are selling a lot in some areas. > Anyone know anything about it? Why just stucco? How about shingles or vertical > wood siding? Is this stuff foing to work to be both the drainage plane and the > spacer in one application? The idea is for stucco becuase the small space behind flush applied wood siding and shingles allow for drainage already. Remember, this product provides very small grooves, of the order of 1/8" or less, so I dont really expect much drainage. It is better than nothing of course. DuPont says that it drains fine but I need to do some testing myself -- I may soon get the chance. It is my guess that they got the idea from some of Joe L's talks about how old stucco worked because of the wrinkling caused between two sheets of building paper If you want really superior performance, put the wood siding on strapping/furring which provide a good 3/4" gap or so -- this works very well, no guesses. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 22:04:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA23410 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:04:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05477; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:59:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:55:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05236 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:55:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix2.interkan.net (root@unix2.interkan.net [12.13.79.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05232 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 21:55:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from interkan.net (pm3-mhk74.interkan.net [12.13.79.104]) by unix2.interkan.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/jpw@interkan.net) with ESMTP id UAA02475; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:56:15 -0600 Message-ID: <36961ADA.4320A509@interkan.net> Date: Fri, 08 Jan 1999 08:48:59 -0600 From: Tamara & Bill Dorsett Reply-To: dorsett@interkan.net Organization: Health Options X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: "Alexander.Neumann" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: GBlist cellulose vs rockwool References: <1.5.4.32.19990108001200.006f86c4@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5640 Stacie, I also think rock wool is a better product but am hesitant to use board forms of insulation as even good craftsmen cut crooked lines. They require the second step of sealing edges to end air leakage. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS ps. my ears indeed are burning. There is noone whose opinion I value - on most any topic - more than Tom's. David F. Lambertson wrote: > I thought, if moisture was a concern, that rock wool was the better product > to use--our Canadian friends have mentioned it, in its board form, as good > exterior insulation. > Sacie Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 9 23:22:59 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA24695 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA07911; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:18:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:14:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA07635 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:14:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from send102.yahoomail.com (send102.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.90]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA07626 for ; Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:14:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990110041631.5888.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> Received: from [131.6.72.132] by send102.yahoomail.com; Sat, 09 Jan 1999 20:16:31 PST Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 20:16:31 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Anderson Subject: Re: GBlist: Minimum House Size To: GrenSheltr@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5641 Linda, Read your entry on the GB list, and just had to respond: > I also am tired of seeing large cookie cutter houses on small lots for more > than $300,000 with no energy efficient features, not properly oriented, and > opulance merely for the sake of opulence --- makes me crazy --- I live in southern Virginia, and it seems that everywhere builders are throwing up houses of just the sort you mention - huge, $300K+ homes, no attention to orientation, total energy sieves. For under $300K, as a relative novice, I feel I could build an adequately sized (around 2000sf), energy efficient home just about anywhere. All I can figure is that mainstream Americans these days need a large house so they can store all the mostly unnecessary stuff it seems one must accumulate to be the model citizen. I can't fathom how people afford to heat and cool these energy wasting monstrosities. It's refreshing to see that someone active in the real estate trade is concerned about what is happening in the housing industry. I was perusing the home ads (Hampton Roads region) just today, and do you know what? Not a single ad out of hundreds featured energy efficiency as a selling point. I am mesmerized by the widespread lack of concern toward energy-efficient building and living in this part of the world. I sincerely hope that there is some movement towards a more sane housing strategy in your part of the world. Unfortunately, nothing will change until home buyers demand it, and I see little indication of that happening around here, it's just business as usual. Thanks for letting me vent. Gary Anderson _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 10 00:45:03 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA25644 for ; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:45:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA10877; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:40:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:35:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA10517 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:34:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA10511 for ; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 00:34:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 17545 invoked by alias); 10 Jan 1999 05:35:40 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 17509 invoked by uid 0); 10 Jan 1999 05:35:39 -0000 Received: from odialup114.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.181.67.114) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 10 Jan 1999 05:35:39 -0000 Message-ID: <005e01be3c5a$dc730040$6343b5d1@h5n5y7> From: "PETER F. ALSPACH" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: more about sawdust boilers--wax your own sawdust Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 22:33:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5642 >From one lurker to another- I think your idea is great and I know it works- did it when I was a boy in the Boy Scouts to make fire-starters! Pete Alspach ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 10 16:32:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA02397 for ; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:32:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA07483; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:27:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:22:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07062 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:22:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from .www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07052 for ; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:22:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip25.ivnet.net [206.101.73.185]) by .www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16276; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:10:10 -0800 Message-ID: <369918C2.90783DA0@ivnet.net> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:16:50 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag Alden CC: Green Building List Subject: Re: GBlist: Cold Batteries? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5643 Not only will your batteries live longer and be more efficient if kept sorta warm, they will have to be pretty close to your inverter, which should remain warm, dry, and accessible. Also, there is some possibility of the batteries producing hydrogen gas (not true with all battery types, but mostly), so they should be vented to the outdoors. The vent needn't be very large, but should be at the top of the battery box, as hydrogen is lighter than air. Speireag Alden wrote: > > Hallo, all. > > Looking ahead to the eventual solar system here in New Hampshire. I > want to be tied into the grid, net-metering. However, the folks at Real > Goods told me that I would still have to have a battery set-up even so if I > wanted to have power when the grid was down, even when the sun was shining. > > Now, I'm building a very small house. (Someday it will get a bit > larger, but not for several years at the minimum.) There is no spare room > for a battery enclosure. Here in snow country things get pretty cold, and > I'm under the impression that batteries must be kept somewhat warm (like > above freezing, anyway). > > So, must I build a pit battery house or somesuch? That would be a real > pain on my land; lots of water in the ground, and lots of rocks to dig > through. But just about any above-ground structure is going to freeze > without supplemental heat, especially if I don't want to take the blankets > off of the window and put them back every day. > > What to do? > > -Speireag. > 0>>>>>>(--------------------- > Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden > Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org > Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. > Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 10 16:42:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA02469 for ; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:42:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA08099; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:37:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:32:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07709 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:32:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from .www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07705 for ; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:32:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip25.ivnet.net [206.101.73.185]) by .www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16419; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:21:24 -0800 Message-ID: <36991B63.E6CC860B@ivnet.net> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 13:28:03 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: EcoAmazon@aol.com CC: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: more about sawdust boilers References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5644 A friend of mine made a sawdust burner out of an old barrel stove. He used a small worm drive, (like an old meat grinder) with a small variable speed motor. Sawdust burns fine without compaction if you drop it down onto the fire. In fact, you should take care that it doesn't burn back to your hopper. When delivered finely ground, the wood will tend to burn quickly, and the feed rate can be adjusted for optimum combustion efficiency. Bruce Donelson EcoAmazon@aol.com wrote: > > quick responses, y'all: > > Remember that I mentioned this in response to someone who was suggesting a > labor- + tech-intensive way to press sawdust with some equipment (not that I'm > saying that's not OK!). My colleague says that the pressures involved to > mobilize the lignin (the binder for cellulose) are only available from special > extruders like the ones that pelletize sawdust using pressure alone. > > Sawdust and paraffin makes great fire starters for camping, etc. Paraffin = > tech for the masses--old pot, melt paraffin, stir in as much sawdust as you > can, pack into a simple mold. He says you get tons of sawdust compacted this > way. (He's going to show me later--his stove, I hope.) > > I'm told that paraffin doesn't burn any dirtier than wood. And shit stinks > when it burns. > > paraffin... baby oil, vaseline, your car, your electricity... > > paraffin is a hydrocarbon (just a collection of Cs and Hs), says Van > Nostrand's > > oh never mind. > > (crawling back into the lurker shadows) > Carol Steinfeld > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 10 20:50:15 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA04994 for ; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:50:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA17447; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:45:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:39:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA16980 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:39:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from medusa.twinoaks.org (medusa.twinoaks.org [206.239.101.132]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA16973 for ; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:39:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ixchel (206.239.101.140) by medusa.twinoaks.org (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:10:42 +0000 Message-ID: From: "McCune " To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 20:41:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/enriched; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #441 Reply-to: McCune In-reply-to: <199901100700.CAA13440@solstice.crest.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5645 0000,0000,FF00> Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:37:18 -0500 > From: Speireag Alden < > Subject: GBlist: Cold Batteries? > > Hallo, all. > > Looking ahead to the eventual solar system here in New Hampshire. I > want to be tied into the grid, net-metering. However, the folks at Real > Goods told me that I would still have to have a battery set-up even so if > I wanted to have power when the grid was down, even when the sun was > shining. > > Now, I'm building a very small house. (Someday it will get a bit > larger, but not for several years at the minimum.) There is no spare room > for a battery enclosure. Here in snow country things get pretty cold, and > I'm under the impression that batteries must be kept somewhat warm (like > above freezing, anyway). > > So, must I build a pit battery house or somesuch? That would be a > real > pain on my land; lots of water in the ground, and lots of rocks to dig > through. But just about any above-ground structure is going to freeze > without supplemental heat, especially if I don't want to take the blankets > off of the window and put them back every day. > > What to do? > > - -Speireag. > Greetings Speireag Solar electric PV systems cost a lot of money to buy. Proper location of batteries is an essential part of any well made PV system, one that will deliver the power you paid for. Cold batteries function poorly; so do overheated ones. Put your batteries in a mild 'room temperature' location however you can manage it or you'll have wasted a lot of money/resources. [Mild, dry and ventilated location!] Check out any of the many guides and texts on PV systems available. --------------------------- McCune Twin Oaks Community 138 Twin Oaks Rd Louisa VA 23093-6337 540 894 5126 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 04:35:05 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA10235 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 04:35:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA03756; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 04:30:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 04:23:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA03364 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 04:23:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA03360 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 04:23:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-66.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.66]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 04:05:02 -0500 Message-ID: <3699EE42.356@cyberzone.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 04:27:46 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Insulation around windows Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5646 Is it ok to use fiberglass scraps around window and door frames to fill the rough opening, or is foamed-in-place better? And can anyone recommend a brand of foam? Thanks Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 04:40:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA10278 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 04:40:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA04077; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 04:36:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 04:29:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA03644 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 04:29:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA03640 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 04:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-66.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.66]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 04:11:20 -0500 Message-ID: <3699EFBC.5D80@cyberzone.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 04:34:04 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Bathroom venting Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5647 Can anyone recommend a good light/fan combination for bathroom venting? I know Panasonic and Fan Tech make good fans, but I don't know if they make combo units. It seems that most of the units in houses are actually light/white noise makers. In lieu of an overhead fan, does anyone have experience with a through-wall fan (for an outside wall), instead of going up into the attic? Thanks Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 06:46:55 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA11189 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:46:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA07124; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:42:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:35:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA06494 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:35:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA06490 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.160] (pm0a21.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.85]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id GAA02428; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:36:40 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) [207.136.199.160] from pm0a21.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.85] 207.136.199.85 Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:36:40 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: nmalin@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3699EFBC.5D80@cyberzone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:23:35 -0500 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom venting Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5648 Hi Dan, Panasonic does make a fan-light combo, with two integral 13W compact fluorescent lamps--see EBN Vol. 6, No. 2 for more details. We have one in our office bathroom, and it's working find. Nadav At 4:34 AM -0800 1/11/99, Dan and Pam wrote: >Can anyone recommend a good light/fan combination for bathroom venting? >I know Panasonic and Fan Tech make good fans, but I don't know if they >make combo units. It seems that most of the units in houses are actually >light/white noise makers. In lieu of an overhead fan, does anyone have >experience with a through-wall fan (for an outside wall), instead of >going up into the attic? >Thanks >Dan Harazim >Canterbury, CT Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 06:48:37 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA11199 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:48:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA07233; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:44:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:37:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA06557 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:37:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA06553 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:37:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.101.164]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA22112 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:43:00 +0000 Message-ID: <3699C061.F7B7407@which.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:12:02 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Cold Batteries? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5649 I don't think it can be necessary to both grid tie and have batteries. If you want to be off grid then batteries are essential. If you grid tie then the grid acts as your battery. You are already paying for the grid connection. If your grid supply fails regularly then you need to find out what the electricity company is going to do about it. If it doesn't then why would you want the batteries? Containing a lot of lead, batteries are not environmentally friendly things and should be avoided if possible. Speireag Alden wrote: > > Hallo, all. > > Looking ahead to the eventual solar system here in New Hampshire. I > want to be tied into the grid, net-metering. However, the folks at Real > Goods told me that I would still have to have a battery set-up even so if I > wanted to have power when the grid was down, even when the sun was shining. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 06:48:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA11204 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:48:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA07257; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:44:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:37:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA06570 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:37:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA06564 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:37:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.101.164]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA22125 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:43:09 +0000 Message-ID: <3699CC3B.B9AB1FC1@which.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:02:35 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: RE: heat X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5650 Yes you are right Chris. Sorry I probably shouldn't have put a number to it, since without doing the calculations I was just trying to make the point that there are substantial energy savings to be made by turning off the heating when we don't need it and that if we get the timing right we don't even notice. Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 08:01:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA11599 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:01:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA09748; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 07:56:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 07:49:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA08993 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 07:49:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA08989; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 07:49:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp016.cd.centuryinter.net (ppp016.cd.centuryinter.net [209.142.147.88]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA24436; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 06:44:57 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <369A22D3.809@centuryinter.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:12:04 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Reply-To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: strawbale@crest.org CC: coblist@deatech.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: straw partition insulation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5651 Have completed the exterior of my straw bale house. the interior has some 2x4 partitions that will be drywalled. I am considering using straw or light straw clay to insulate the interior walls mainly for sound reduction. Is it necessary to use clay treated straw? Any other thoughts, pitfalls? Thanks Keith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 09:20:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12624 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:20:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12471; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:16:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:11:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12128 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12123 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:10:48 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ079666; Mon, 11 Jan 99 07:11:24 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA42606; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 07:10:37 -0700 Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 07:10:37 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Tamara & Bill Dorsett Cc: Renewable News Network , Schawe@aol.com, "Ross M. Donald" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Tubular Skylights In-Reply-To: <368EFF4B.EE818A32@interkan.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5652 Bill: Thank you for your details and explanations. Jorg Ostrowski ____________________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 2 Jan 1999, Tamara & Bill Dorsett wrote: > > Ross, like you we've designed around standard 46"/36" x 76" stock sliding > glass door size > lites for sunrooms. Recently however, I've compared the prices of standard > fixed lite over awning window combinations with what it cost for me to do the > work of framing, triming etc. of our sliding door lites and I can't make a > compelling case for my clients to pay me to do it. Theirs are clad and mine > need the long cycle of repainting; I think mine are tight but not as tight as > their cladding seals; mine need supplemental ventilation but theirs vents in > all weather and locks down as tight as my fixed stick built units. From now > on, I think I will recommend a real factory standard - a store bought window. > > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > You said:"(All my air heating collectors are in standard 4' x 8' modules; > > all my passive solar is around 46"/36" x 76" stock sliding glass door size > > lites.)" > > __________________________________________________________________________ > > Ross: Without making it a blatant advertisement, can you simply decribe > > the above? Are they commercially available for what kind of applications? > > Thanks you for considering my request. Jorg Ostrowski > > > > _ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 09:44:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12891 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:44:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13758; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:40:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:35:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13223 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:34:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13215 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:34:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA05620 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:35:36 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA10-p62.dreamscape.com [209.4.252.254]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA02042 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:35:11 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sA10-p62.dreamscape.com [209.4.252.254] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:35:11 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <369A0B85.DAC2A2FA@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:32:37 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: PV advances Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5653 For those of you who are looking at or working with PV's, I thought this might be of interest. For links to Popular Science article go to: http://www.ornl.gov/news/pulse/ Popular Science recognizes innovative solar technologies Popular Science magazine selected cutting-edge solar technologies developed with support from DOE's National Renewable Energy Laboratory as among the year’s most important technological advances. Innovative microinverters that enable photovoltaic modules to produce standard household current are listed in the magazine’s “100 Best of What’s New.” Two of the three cited microinverters were developed with NREL’s financial and technical assistance. Ascension Technology Inc. of Waltham, Mass., developed and now manufactures a photovoltaic module with a built-in microinverter that produces alternating current. Advanced Energy Systems Inc. of Wilton, N.H., developed a microinverter that can be attached to photovoltaic modules made by several manufacturers. DOE’s Photovoltaic Manufacturing Technology and PV Bonus programs provided funding. [Julia Thomas, 303/275-3023, julia_thomas@nrel.gov] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 10:45:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA13780 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:45:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16690; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:41:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:35:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16276 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:35:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16264 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.51] (newhenyusr0-a14.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.14]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA27456; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:36:20 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:28:03 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: GBlist: Cold Batteries Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5654 Speireag, As others have said, you do not want to have your batteries in an unheated space. I've lived with batteries for 10 years and have seen lots of other battery powered houses. One nice solution is a window seat box in which to "hide" the batteries. No matter how small your house, you should have them inside unless you want to go to all the trouble of trying to make a small, well insulated, sun heated shed. I believe batteries loose half their capacity at freezing temperatures. Furthermore, if yours is going to be a grid-interconnected house, then you will not need very large batteries, as they will only be for back-up when the grid is down. For a small efficient house you could probably do fine with 2 golf-cart batteries, which aren't much bigger than car batteries. Surely you can find enough space to fit them somewhere it won't get too cold. Be sure that the enclosure is accessible for checking on them and big enough to give room for servicing (such as adding water). I highly recommend you get Backwoods Solar's catalog and guide. They have a web site. Their printed guide and telephone advice are excellent, as well as having low prices. I have had and have heard of too many bad experiences with Real Goods to recommend them (although they are doing the right thing in educating you that grid-intertie solar won't be good for anything if the grid is down and you have no batteries). You might also be able to find a local solar dealer who could help you out with a lot of these questions. The most important basic principle in all of this electricity stuff is that ENERGY CONSERVATION AND EFFICIENCY is the best and cheapest way of doing the right thing. Backwood's Solar emphasizes this and tells you how to be efficient. Don't be drawn in by the "glamour" of having PV panels ... the real solution is as mundane as compact fluorescent bulbs carefully located and turned off when not needed! Chris Neurath ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 10:37:18 -0500 From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Cold Batteries? Hallo, all. Looking ahead to the eventual solar system here in New Hampshire. I want to be tied into the grid, net-metering. However, the folks at Real Goods told me that I would still have to have a battery set-up even so if I wanted to have power when the grid was down, even when the sun was shining. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 12:19:55 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15825 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:19:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23061; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:15:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:11:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22384 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:10:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22380 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:10:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id LAA0000023423; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:11:25 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990111171428.006e3c14@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:14:28 -0600 To: ledbalon , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Floor slabs and vapor barriers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5655 'Swedes use---- is the equivalent of R30 or more - of course, they are using the insulation as a moisture/vapour barrier also.' Richard, What do the Swedes commonly use for insulation? And, from your statement above, are you suggesting that the thicker insulation also is a moisture/vapor barrier? Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 12:20:42 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15830 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:20:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23238; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:12:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22504 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:11:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.mindspring.com (smtp1.mindspring.com [207.69.200.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22493 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:11:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip34.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.34]) by smtp1.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA27217; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:12:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990111171037.009e6678@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:10:37 -0500 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulation around windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5656 At 04:27 AM 1/11/1999 -0800, Dan and Pam wrote: >Is it ok to use fiberglass scraps around window and door frames to fill >the rough opening, or is foamed-in-place better? And can anyone >recommend a brand of foam? ... Use foam or gaskets on all door & window rough openings !!! Try the Energy Federation Inc - or 800-876-0660. They have both - see the throwaway foam gun that ought to last more than a month w/care. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel.516/477-2922 fax.516/345-3169 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 12:20:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15836 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:20:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23265; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:16:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:12:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA22503 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:11:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.mindspring.com (smtp1.mindspring.com [207.69.200.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA22490 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:11:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip34.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.34]) by smtp1.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA10921; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:12:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990111171035.009e6b5c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:10:35 -0500 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom venting Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5657 At 04:34 AM 1/11/1999 -0800, Dan and Pam wrote: >In lieu of an overhead fan, does anyone have >experience with a through-wall fan (for an outside wall), instead of >going up into the attic? ... Try - Tamarack Technologies 800-222-5932 best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel.516/477-2922 fax.516/345-3169 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 14:12:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA17824 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:12:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01925; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:03:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01582 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:03:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01577 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:03:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.253.25.11] (208.253.25.11) by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:12:09 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulation around windows Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 11:08:42 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "greenbuilding" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1296040567-1977346@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5658 In the old days, we used to advise that foam _not_ be used between a header and the top of the window, because it might transfer the load. So foam would be good on three sides, but across the top another method would be better. If the gap is less than one inch wide a high quality polyurethane caulk can cover the fiberglass (which servers as a backer). Wider gaps may require a strip of poly or housewrap caulked to the framing. If newer methods are available, I'm sure our illustrious listers will set me straight. Bruce S >>Is it ok to use fiberglass scraps around window and door frames to fill >>the rough opening, or is foamed-in-place better? And can anyone >>recommend a brand of foam? ... > >Use foam or gaskets on all door & window rough openings !!! >Try the Energy Federation Inc - or 800-876-0660. >They have both - see the throwaway foam gun that ought to last more than a >month w/care. >best -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 15:00:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA18595 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:00:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05621; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:55:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:51:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA04998 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:51:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA04991 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:51:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id NAA0000011073; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:52:11 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990111195508.006bb180@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:55:08 -0600 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulation around windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5659 Dan, Fiberglass loses its potential insulating value when compacted and acts more as a wind stop than as insulation when its pushed into the sides of window frames.. I used foam but only the type that doesn't expand a lot and I'm very careful not to put in too much at a time so that it doesn't 'bend' the window frame. Sacie Lambertson >Is it ok to use fiberglass scraps around window and door frames to fill >the rough opening, or is foamed-in-place better? And can anyone >recommend a brand of foam? >Thanks >Dan Harazim >Canterbury, CT >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 15:00:21 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA18600 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:00:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05623; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:55:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:51:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05010 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:51:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA04997 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:51:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id NAA0000021395; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:52:13 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990111195511.006ab01c@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 13:55:11 -0600 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom venting Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5660 Panasonic makes good low-sone fans--the one I just purchased from Tamarac prayme@tamtech.com or 800 222-5932---ask for David MacLellan if he doesn't answer the phone when you call. He is knowledgeable and helpful and the prices there are good. Surely P. makes one with a light too, what I bought doesn't have one. Vents through the side wall, the nearer the better. Am putting a Fan Tech fan high up in the duct of a stove hood fan, along with a timer so I can put it on low or whatever I want. These can vent to the side as well. Don't know about the noise, though I installed one to vent a stove 20 years ago and couldn't hear it at all. Sacie Lambertson BTW. Energy Federation Incorporated has energy efficient supplies as does Shelter Supply--on the Internet I'm sure. At 04:34 AM 11-01-99 -0800, you wrote: >Can anyone recommend a good light/fan combination for bathroom venting? >I know Panasonic and Fan Tech make good fans, but I don't know if they >make combo units. It seems that most of the units in houses are actually >light/white noise makers. In lieu of an overhead fan, does anyone have >experience with a through-wall fan (for an outside wall), instead of >going up into the attic? >Thanks >Dan Harazim >Canterbury, CT >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 15:26:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19008 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:26:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08207; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:21:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:17:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA07675 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:17:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07661 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:17:25 -0500 (EST) From: Marcoplos@aol.com Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id VTCHa04796; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:17:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1d2398d5.369a5c6b@aol.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:17:47 EST To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom venting Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 226 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5661 Panasonic does make a fan/light combo - around $175 from Energy Federation Inc. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 17:58:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21637 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:58:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA17493; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:53:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:47:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA17014 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:47:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17010 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:47:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.253.25.202] (208.253.25.202) by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:54:46 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Vinyl-framed Windows Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:51:44 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1296027210-2780852@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5662 Here's my dilemma. The 100-year old farmhouse that we moved into last summer is about to be weatherized (and not a moment too soon, brrr). In addition to wall and floor insulation, we hope to replace the single pane windows. After reading Greenpeace material and the article in EBN a while back about the toxic side effects of vinyl manufacturing, I'm concerned about supporting this industry. Naturally, the cost of vinyl is far lower than wood-framed windows. We have these bids: vinyl (installed) $2500 Norco wood with aluminum cladding (not installed) $4000 Marvin primed wood (not installed) $6100 With this kind of cost difference, there's a distinct possibility that it's vinyl or nothing -- at least for several years. Even if we decide on the wood, we have to install 24 windows, which would take several months of weekend warrior time. Are there are other factors that might favor vinyl? They last a long time. They save lots of energy. They don't require painting every few years. By considering vinyl, am I just trying to save money? Would it be better to wait several years, to save up the extra money for wood. Thanks for sharing your opinions with me. Bruce S ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 18:03:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA21719 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:03:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA17930; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:57:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:54:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA17524 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:53:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlas.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [209.250.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17501 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:53:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from timex.pathcom.com (ts41l38.pathcom.com [209.250.145.95]) by atlas.pathcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA16059 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:56:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901112256.RAA16059@atlas.pathcom.com> From: timex@pathcom.com To: "greenbuilding" Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:56:31 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Re: Windows Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com In-reply-to: <1296040567-1977346@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5663 Listers from Ontario: An older woman at work is needing new windows, and on both north and south facing sides. She has had two window companies come and quote and is finding what she is hearing fairly confusing. As well, she was approached late at night by some strangers who wanted to sell her windows, who didn't leave a card, and who acted, in all, very strangely. I have printed off all the window advice from the list that I have saved, but she is wondering if any of you from our area could recommend a window company/installer who works the Barrie/Newmarket area. Thanks for any recomendations. marilyn Cybercrone http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ "With so many terrific features in Reality, it's no wonder we have 250 million members. Still, it's important to remember that Reality is no substitute for Cyberspace; both have their place in a balanced life." -quoted from America Off-Line ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 18:55:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA22469 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:55:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20955; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:46:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA20572 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:45:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20562 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:45:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.208]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 7198100 ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:19:03 -0800 Message-ID: <369A8CFC.98C582E0@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 15:45:00 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Sullivan CC: Green Building Subject: Re: GBlist: Vinyl-framed Windows References: <1296027210-2780852@irisinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5664 Environmental concerns around vinyl I think are well deserved both in the manufacturing and in end user health exposure with use in an area where heat and uv can degrade the material. Performance is another area of concern as the material does become embrittled with age and the expansion and contraction causes joints to crack. Its a lousy product in my opinion and if cost is an overriding concern I would use thermally broken aluminum as an option. The wood in aluminum clad wood windows is dipped in a fungicide , and I think this is odd that it is not disclosed by manufacturers as I doubt some of the ingredients are approved for interior use. The treatment is intended to prolong the life of the clad exterior wood which I think would be subject to quick decay because of the nature of the cladding and its limitations - some manufacturers will provide untreated versions but will not warranty the product. I'm curious to look at some of the 'best' brands to see what a realistic expectation of lifespan is. A fiberglass or untreated wood window I think are the best options available though for longevity a thermally broken quality (commercial) aluminum might prove to be the best option though not as energy efficient due to edge loss. Odd to have worked on restorations including 100yr old window frames and sashes and we can't seem to get beyond a very minimal life expectation in what we even consider to be the best products - perhaps we are looking for the wrong qualities. john Bruce Sullivan wrote: > Here's my dilemma. The 100-year old farmhouse that we moved into last > summer is about to be weatherized (and not a moment too soon, brrr). In > addition to wall and floor insulation, we hope to replace the single pane > windows. > > After reading Greenpeace material and the article in EBN a while back > about the toxic side effects of vinyl manufacturing, I'm concerned about > supporting this industry. > > Naturally, the cost of vinyl is far lower than wood-framed windows. We > have these bids: > > vinyl (installed) $2500 > Norco wood with aluminum cladding (not installed) $4000 > Marvin primed wood (not installed) $6100 > > With this kind of cost difference, there's a distinct possibility that > it's vinyl or nothing -- at least for several years. Even if we decide on > the wood, we have to install 24 windows, which would take several months > of weekend warrior time. > > Are there are other factors that might favor vinyl? They last a long > time. They save lots of energy. They don't require painting every few > years. By considering vinyl, am I just trying to save money? Would it be > better to wait several years, to save up the extra money for wood. > > Thanks for sharing your opinions with me. > > Bruce S > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com > Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 > Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com > -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 19:07:52 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA22642 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:07:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA21711; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:03:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:59:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA21320 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:59:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlas.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [209.250.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21316 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 18:59:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from timex.pathcom.com (ts41l38.pathcom.com [209.250.145.95]) by atlas.pathcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA05062 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:02:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901120002.TAA05062@atlas.pathcom.com> From: timex@pathcom.com To: "greenbuilding" Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:02:05 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Insulation Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5665 I had asked the list for their recomendations and preferences wehn it came to insulating a cold front wall and bedroom floor which is hanging over a porch, and the consensus seemed to be that blown in cellulose would do the trick. No one gave any mention to those little tiony bead things that are also blown in, someone is now trying to convince me that these are the best. Am I assuming correctly when I think that nobody here mentioned them because they aren't worth mentioning? Thanks again . . . marilyn Cybercrone http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ "With so many terrific features in Reality, it's no wonder we have 250 million members. Still, it's important to remember that Reality is no substitute for Cyberspace; both have their place in a balanced life." -quoted from America Off-Line ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 19:28:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA22893 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:28:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA22881; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:24:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:20:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA22473 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from am-dew.nevada.edu (am-dew.nevada.edu [131.216.1.249]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22466 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:19:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from nevada.edu (s2-ppp16.nevada.edu [131.216.253.132]) by am-dew.nevada.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA26887 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:20:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <369A9599.50D83E69@nevada.edu> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:21:51 -0800 From: Allie Smith Reply-To: smitha2@nevada.edu Organization: Citizen Alert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco-Villages/Sustainable Communities References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5666 Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Does anyone know of any other (besides "UnPlugged Eco Center" > inMichigan) of the above that are in the planning stages? Well, I guess it's time for my lurking days to come to an end. I'm the Outreach/Energy Coordinator for a non-profit group (Citizen Alert) in Las Vegas, Nevada. I have been involved in local straw bale construction projects for about three years. I am in the process of developing a Natural Resources Education Center. It will be approximately 5,000 square feet and provide office space for up to 5 environmentally-related non-profit groups. The straw bale building will incorporate a number of different energy-efficient and water conservation measures, including encouraging alternative transportation. It will also serve as an educational tool for the community during all phases of construction and into its operation as a functioning building. Sounds bland on a quick e-mail, but it is a very exciting project. Of course, no project can move forward without funding--the estimated budget is $481,000. A $200,000 grant has been submitted to the EPA Sustainable Development Challenge Grant Program. Over $88,000 worth of in-kind donations have been confirmed by local businesses and groups. There are also some other funding ideas in the works. I would be happy to send any interested parties more information either by e-mail or snail-mail. I am in the process of creating a list of interested parties to be contacted with regular updates once the project begins. Please contact me at the above address. Thanks! --Allie Smith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 20:15:52 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA23850 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:15:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA25197; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:11:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:06:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA24804 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:05:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA24795 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:05:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.65] (rkd041.acadia.net [208.244.128.65]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA07088 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:06:22 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:05:11 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Cold Batteries? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5667 Dear Speireag, Congratulations for choosing to incorporate PV's into your building project. Your dilemma, as I understand it, is how to provide a suitable space for batteries which you need to tie you over during grid-power outages. Grid failures do happen, but not very often. Given the environmental hazards of batteries, consider this alternative: wire your house so that "essential" circuits - water pump, refrigerator/freezer, and a few lights - are on a subpanel. Wire a transfer switch between this subpanel and the main panel. When the grid is up, you power these essential circuits from the grid. When the sun is out and you aren't drawing much current, you're contributing to the grid. When the grid goes down, you throw the transfer switch and run your essential circuits from a generator. Sure generators are noisy and burn fossil fuels, but the amount of time you'll use one is very small. Without doing an in-depth analysis, I believe that occasional generator use is more "green" than a battery bank. Others, no doubt, will have more informed opinions. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 20:32:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA24035 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:32:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA26888; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:27:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:23:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA26251 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:22:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA26230 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:22:47 -0500 (EST) From: IdahoCFM@aol.com Received: from IdahoCFM@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id ECDSa27768 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:21:47 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:21:47 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: CFL success formula Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5668 Hi gang, I fielded a question from someone a while ago about CFL's and can lights, but I seem to have misplaced her address. The recent discussion on the topic prompts me to contribute this success formula: In commercial applications, a Technabrite springlamp in a standard Prescolite LiteBox IBXTP with a reasonably sophisticated dimmer, yields good, energy efficient light which is dimmable to ~20%. It took us a while to figure out the dimmer issue, a cheap dimmer doesn't give nearly the dimming capacity of a more sophisticated (and unfortunately expensive) dimmer. To date, I've had 9 months of trouble free performance out of this combination. Hope this information helps others apply this technology to commercial and residential applications. Chris Meyer Parkwood Business Properties ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 20:38:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA24245 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:38:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA27323; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:32:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:29:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA26966 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:28:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA26961 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 20:28:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.253.25.154] (208.253.25.154) by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:36:52 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Vinyl-framed Windows Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 17:33:58 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1296017484-93383@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5669 Charlotte Thanks for your comments. Here are a couple of thoughts. >EBN says go >for energy efficiency over manufacturing pollution so don't rule PVC out on >that regard. But rather lack of dependability. I lived with vinyl-framed windows in a new house for more than six years. We saw no indication of the durability problems you or John Salmen mentioned. In fact, vinyl-frames are the mainstream choice for windows in new construction and remodeling around here. Aluminum frames have almost disappeared from the market. I actually feel okay about the durability issue. However, I don't suppose that six years is long enough for durability problems to manifest. > >Do the frames really need to be replaced completely? Sash replacement kits >cost almost as much as a window, but can be installed by anyone saving a >fortune on labor. Sorry, I didn't mention that these are indeed sash replacements. My first idea was to keep the original wood sashes and replace the glazing with sealed insulated units. I know that this can be done, but I can't find anyone in Oregon that does it. Any of you Northwesterners know of a contractor? Thanks Bruce ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 22:35:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA26281 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:35:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA03102; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:31:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:25:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA02405 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:25:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu (root@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.180]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA02401 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:25:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from angle.cacr.caltech.edu (angle.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.72]) by mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA29526 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:26:38 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901120326.TAA29526@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> X-Sender: mac@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:26:42 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Barbara Lamprecht Subject: GBlist: Diatomaceous Earth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5670 Does anyone know if diatomaceous earth ( seashell silica mineral aggregate of fossilized algae-like sea creatures) is used in building products, for example as an light-weight aggregate for concrete? Would it replace standard aggregate, or perhaps be considered in place of fly-ash? If it isn't used any more, can anyone tell me why? My web searches have primarily turned up either DE used for water filtration systems or as part of the diet for fish in tanks. Thank you, barbara lamprecht ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 11 23:12:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA27140 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:12:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04394; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:08:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:04:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA04117 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:04:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from srunet.sru.edu (srunet.sru.edu [192.148.234.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA04112 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:04:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from phoenix.sru.edu ([205.149.64.44] helo=rockmail.sru.edu) by srunet.sru.edu with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for greenbuilding@crest.org id 0zzw53-00003o-00; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:09:29 -0500 Received: from oemcomputer ([208.231.49.200]) by rockmail.sru.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with SMTP id AAA2C25 for ; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:04:56 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990112040440.0068bba0@rockmail.sru.edu> X-Sender: jdt4006@rockmail.sru.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:04:40 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Jeremy Truog Subject: Re: GBlist: Diatomaceous Earth Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5671 Barbara, I have never heard of using DE as a building material. Interesting idea though. I have used it extensively as a natural insecticide for organic gardening. The crushed up shells are sharp, on a microscopic level, and pierces the outside of insects that come in contact with it, causing them to dehydrate. And if eaten by the insect, it tears up their digestive tract. I'm not sure if it could be used in place of fly-ash or not. My only question would be why you would want to. Considering that there are good uses for it otherwise, and fly-ash is a disposal problem with using it in concrete is a good use for it. Just some thoughts, Jeremy Truog At 07:26 PM 1/11/99 -0800, you wrote: >Does anyone know if diatomaceous earth ( seashell silica mineral aggregate >of fossilized algae-like sea creatures) is used in building products, for >example as an light-weight aggregate for concrete? Would it replace >standard aggregate, or perhaps be considered in place of fly-ash? If it >isn't used any more, can anyone tell me why? My web searches have primarily >turned up either DE used for water filtration systems or as part of the >diet for fish in tanks. > >Thank you, >barbara lamprecht > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 00:30:41 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA28172 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:30:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA07472; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:26:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:21:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA07219 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from x16.boston.juno.com (x16.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07215 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:21:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from shardon5@juno.com) by x16.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DYQ5SV3L; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:22:33 EST To: dmfoley@acadia.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 19:38:41 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Cold Batteries? Message-ID: <19990111.221743.-203531.11.shardon5@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3,5,7,9,11,13 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: shardon5@juno.com (sharon j emley) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5672 There is another choice for PV storage perhaps in the near future. A spin-off company of Sat-Con Technologies in Cambridge, Ma is producing flywheel batteries with integral inverters for direct connection to PV systems. These are probably not very sensitive to cold, but they are tough on budgets. I believe that they have only sold a few so far mostly to telephone companies who appreciate the totally maintenance free aspect. I have forgotten the exact numbers but it was about $6000 for a unit with the capacity of about 3 large automotive batteries. Remember, the inverter and other electronics are included. Don Arkin ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 02:33:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA29102 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA12498; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:24:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA12112 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:23:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA12108 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:23:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.47]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 7505100 ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 00:01:27 -0800 Message-ID: <369AF855.71BB66BE@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:23:01 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Sullivan CC: Green Building Subject: Re: GBlist: Vinyl-framed Windows References: <1296017484-93383@irisinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5673 I like your first idea and last comment - there should be a local millwork shop that custom manufactures doors/windows that would be able to do a decent conversion. Another alternative is storm windows which can be very energy efficient as well as a healthy physical reminder of seasonal change. The major problem is obtaining a good seal on older windows, especially operable ones. As to dependability. It is true that you won't see much deterioration in a 6 year old window but you will in a 10-15 year old window regardless of material. It would be nice to have a window that outlives the seal on the glazing or does not break apart when replacement glass is installed, or simply one that can be repaired. As to the qualities we are looking for. I find it ironic that we are increasingly demanding imprerviousness in a product that has an increasingly short lifespan. The environmental impact of renewing a finish on a traditional wood window I would imagine is negligible compared to the disposal and replacement of complete plastic units. As I watch buildings age I find I am recovering my faith in wood windows for as ugly as weather can make them they do seem infinitely renewable or recoverable. Another good quality here is that the labour of renewal is mostly labour (and localized labour at that). John Bruce Sullivan wrote: > Charlotte > > Thanks for your comments. Here are a couple of thoughts. > > >EBN says go > >for energy efficiency over manufacturing pollution so don't rule PVC out on > >that regard. But rather lack of dependability. > > I lived with vinyl-framed windows in a new house for more than six years. > We saw no indication of the durability problems you or John Salmen > mentioned. In fact, vinyl-frames are the mainstream choice for windows in > new construction and remodeling around here. Aluminum frames have almost > disappeared from the market. I actually feel okay about the durability > issue. However, I don't suppose that six years is long enough for > durability problems to manifest. > > > > >Do the frames really need to be replaced completely? Sash replacement kits > >cost almost as much as a window, but can be installed by anyone saving a > >fortune on labor. > > Sorry, I didn't mention that these are indeed sash replacements. > > My first idea was to keep the original wood sashes and replace the > glazing with sealed insulated units. I know that this can be done, but I > can't find anyone in Oregon that does it. Any of you Northwesterners know > of a contractor? > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 02:34:28 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA29112 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:34:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA12537; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:29:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:25:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA12198 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:25:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.harborside.com (exim@mail.harborside.com [204.214.110.226]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA12189 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 02:25:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from p06.rs2.harborside.com ([204.214.111.6]) by mail.harborside.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #6) id 0zzyDN-0006Mf-00 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:26:15 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410) Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:27:19 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Vinyl-framed Windows From: "Steve" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5674 > Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:51:44 -0000 > From: Bruce Sullivan > Subject: GBlist: Vinyl-framed Windows > > After reading Greenpeace material and the article in EBN a while back > about the toxic side effects of vinyl manufacturing, I'm concerned about > supporting this industry. > > Naturally, the cost of vinyl is far lower than wood-framed windows. We > have these bids: > > vinyl (installed) $2500 > Norco wood with aluminum cladding (not installed) $4000 > Marvin primed wood (not installed) $6100 > > With this kind of cost difference, there's a distinct possibility that > it's vinyl or nothing -- at least for several years. Even if we decide on > the wood, we have to install 24 windows, which would take several months > of weekend warrior time. > > Are there are other factors that might favor vinyl? They last a long > time. They save lots of energy. They don't require painting every few > years. By considering vinyl, am I just trying to save money? Would it be > better to wait several years, to save up the extra money for wood. Bruce Here's a heretical opinion: Install the vinyl windows. Wasting money is also unfriendly, use the savings to mitigate the use of vinyl by being 'greener' in other areas. Spend the money saved on better weatherizing, buying a Sunfrost, whatever. Aluminum has tremendous embedded energy costs, and wood can have high labor costs in addition to the possible environmental damage plus toxic preservatives. -- 'The Inner Dimension' CD & 'The Inner Dimension' SDK "Never confuse information with knowledge." "Think twice - code once." ---------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 04:54:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA29944 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 04:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA15760; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 04:50:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 04:43:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA15400 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 04:42:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA15396 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 04:42:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-19.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.19]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 04:24:21 -0500 Message-ID: <369B444F.49E@cyberzone.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 04:47:12 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Insulation and exhaust fans Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5675 GBListers, Thanks to one and all for your comments on the above. Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 09:48:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02345 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:48:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25944; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:43:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:39:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25488 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:39:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25484 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:39:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:36:50 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E29A@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: recessed can lights/air sealing and insulation Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:36:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5676 Another LOA horror story. I recently purchased one of their CFL fixture (hardwired, not just a screw in bulb). The electronic ballast fried (my wife said it sounded like a bug zapper) after four weeks of use. Fortunately, I was able to return it to the place of purchase. LOA does give the fixture a one-year over the counter replacement gaurantee, but that doesn't reassure me. I seem to have had good luck with Phillips replacement bulbs. > Hmmm, saw your comment on "Lights of America" and did a double-take. I > purchased two of their lights. One went in a recessed can and > blew out in > two days. The other went in a standard lamp and lasted only a > few months > (the package said 10 years). ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 09:51:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02387 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:51:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26265; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:47:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:43:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25884 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:43:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (UzU4Chpc1RDRFLJgNe3ypVIPoFWKyQTs@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25875 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (b1igYtWahcb/KIOCRNMJV+NESP9OXv/r@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06955; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:44:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA16851; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:44:02 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <369B5FA0.237F3598@gs.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:43:45 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Barbara Lamprecht CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Diatomaceous Earth References: <199901120326.TAA29526@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5677 I think you are looking for Vermiculite and Perlite products. These are products which have been used for years for insulation. Then again you will find them being used as fillers to make potting soil lighter and airier. :) I believe they are manufactured by W.R. Grace. Steve Barbara Lamprecht wrote: > Does anyone know if diatomaceous earth ( seashell silica mineral aggregate > of fossilized algae-like sea creatures) is used in building products, for > example as an light-weight aggregate for concrete? Would it replace > standard aggregate, or perhaps be considered in place of fly-ash? If it > isn't used any more, can anyone tell me why? My web searches have primarily > turned up either DE used for water filtration systems or as part of the > diet for fish in tanks. > > Thank you, > barbara lamprecht > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 10:07:57 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02629 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:07:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27494; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:03:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:59:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27068 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:59:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (IAIvE+wAaF3rnSAdrreiBfdlVKgUnizD@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27060 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:59:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (J0bc0GQKmgSsHaZkC9mwYbn5o0rTLm6/@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA07837; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:00:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA17673; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:00:03 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <369B6368.49AD3008@gs.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:59:53 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen CC: Bruce Sullivan , Green Building Subject: Re: GBlist: Vinyl-framed Windows References: <1296017484-93383@irisinc.com> <369AF855.71BB66BE@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5678 Just to toss in my two cents. I am not a fan of PVC windows. First they creak which can be a very annoying sound at bed time. Second, unless you have some type of inner liner such as aluminum inside of the frame they are easily to get into. ( a little Butane burner will melt right though at the locks.... Boom you are inside of the house) Third. Frames are thick so you loose a good deal of glass surface so the actual opening is smaller. Hence you get less light entering the house. My personal preference is to use a clad wood window. I like the stability of wood. Having a cladding on the outside of the window reduces the need to use anything other than a good grade of seal around the perimeter where the case is attached to the house. Actually the cladding could be pvc or aluminum, though I tend to lean towards aluminum since it does not degrade as fast as does pvc. Having wood on the inside adds to the warmth of a house when it is just clear sealed or stained. With regard to insulating the windows, have foamed with low expansion foam and with packed in fiber glass. Either way just filling the void cuts air infiltration. Steve P John Salmen wrote: > I like your first idea and last comment - there should be a local millwork shop > that custom manufactures doors/windows that would be able to do a decent > conversion. Another alternative is storm windows which can be very energy > efficient as well as a healthy physical reminder of seasonal change. The major > problem is obtaining a good seal on older windows, especially operable ones. > > As to dependability. It is true that you won't see much deterioration in a 6 > year old window but you will in a 10-15 year old window regardless of material. > It would be nice to have a window that outlives the seal on the glazing or does > not break apart when replacement glass is installed, or simply one that can be > repaired. > > As to the qualities we are looking for. I find it ironic that we are > increasingly demanding imprerviousness in a product that has an increasingly > short lifespan. The environmental impact of renewing a finish on a traditional > wood window I would imagine is negligible compared to the disposal and > replacement of complete plastic units. As I watch buildings age I find I am > recovering my faith in wood windows for as ugly as weather can make them they do > seem infinitely renewable or recoverable. Another good quality here is that the > labour of renewal is mostly labour (and localized labour at that). > > John > > Bruce Sullivan wrote: > > > Charlotte > > > > Thanks for your comments. Here are a couple of thoughts. > > > > >EBN says go > > >for energy efficiency over manufacturing pollution so don't rule PVC out on > > >that regard. But rather lack of dependability. > > > > I lived with vinyl-framed windows in a new house for more than six years. > > We saw no indication of the durability problems you or John Salmen > > mentioned. In fact, vinyl-frames are the mainstream choice for windows in > > new construction and remodeling around here. Aluminum frames have almost > > disappeared from the market. I actually feel okay about the durability > > issue. However, I don't suppose that six years is long enough for > > durability problems to manifest. > > > > > > > >Do the frames really need to be replaced completely? Sash replacement kits > > >cost almost as much as a window, but can be installed by anyone saving a > > >fortune on labor. > > > > Sorry, I didn't mention that these are indeed sash replacements. > > > > My first idea was to keep the original wood sashes and replace the > > glazing with sealed insulated units. I know that this can be done, but I > > can't find anyone in Oregon that does it. Any of you Northwesterners know > > of a contractor? > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 10:17:14 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02767 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:17:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28240; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:12:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:08:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27811 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:08:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (qULy0bM4LGPn8Tf3MzbBEr+xVcMSVNzH@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27807 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:08:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (Yn5soAnN79GbhXseBz12dEFJeCKoqZz9@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA08190; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:09:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA18143; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:09:27 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <369B659D.A549DD2@gs.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:09:17 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom venting References: <3699EFBC.5D80@cyberzone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5679 Dan You might want to check out Broan and Nutone. They both make combination light / fan units. They start at well under $100. Remember you get what you pay for ... I recommend the higher $ units since they are quiet and use real ball bearings in the fans. Ball bearings rather that bushings make the units last much longer and stay quieter. I use a figure of 1.5 CFM per square foot of bathroom to size the units... This tends to keep the bathroom free of excess moisture. The other thing that I recommend is to put a timer on the fan. It is a real utility killer when you leave a vent fan on and find that it causes many changes of air through the house over the course of the day. What I mean is that it will move all of your heated or cooled air out of your home ... So I use a 15 minute timer. Steve P Dan and Pam wrote: > Can anyone recommend a good light/fan combination for bathroom venting? > I know Panasonic and Fan Tech make good fans, but I don't know if they > make combo units. It seems that most of the units in houses are actually > light/white noise makers. In lieu of an overhead fan, does anyone have > experience with a through-wall fan (for an outside wall), instead of > going up into the attic? > Thanks > Dan Harazim > Canterbury, CT > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 10:25:00 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02886 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:24:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28910; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:20:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:16:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28453 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:16:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901121516.KAA28453@solstice.crest.org> From: "Jason Glazer" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Commercial Building Energy Standard - ASHRAE Standard 90.1 Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:37:37 -0600 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5680 The standard that regulates energy using equipment in most U.S. commercial buildings is in the process of being revised and is seeking input from the HVAC and energy communities. A proposed revision of ASHRAE's Standard 90.1 has been released for in six portions called Independent Substantive Changes. Anyone can submit comments from January 8 to March 9. This will be your last chance to influence the process of developing a new standard since it will be going into a continuous review mode this summer. It is available for download at: {HYPERLINK "http://www.ashrae.org/STANDARDS/availdft.htm"} http://www.ashrae.org/STANDARDS/availdft.htm Six different independent substantive changes cover lighting, mechanical, ECB, power, envelope and format and compliance. The comment forms are in Word 7 and the independent substantive changes are in Adobe Acrobat files (PDFs). Comments are accepted by e-mail or ftp although it looks like a signature needs to be faxed or "snail" mailed separately. The sections are$15 to $30 each. The January ASHRAE Journal article announcing the public review has not yet been posted to the ASHRAE web site. Please feel free to copy this message to any relevant forums. Jason ========================================================= Jason Glazer, P.E. mailto:jglazer@gard.com 847 698 5686 GARD Analytics - http://www.gard.com/ Building Energy Simulation and Analysis 90.1 List Administrator & Consultant Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 11:26:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03775 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:26:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05628; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:22:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:18:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04865 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:17:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04853 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:17:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-19-162.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.131.162]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA02790; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:18:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:22:05 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE3E1D.C8B60BA0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'dpharazim@cyberzone.net'" , greenbuilding Subject: RE: GBlist: Insulation around windows Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:59:28 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5681 On Monday, January 11, 1999 7:28 AM, Dan and Pam [SMTP:dpharazim@cyberzone.net] wrote: > Is it ok to use fiberglass scraps around window and door frames to fill > the rough opening, or is foamed-in-place better? And can anyone As several people have mentioned, stuffed fibreglass is not much good as insulation (not a big deal in a 3/4-1" space) and is certainly no good for stopping the big nasty -- air leakage. There is a CMHC report, the title which I cant remember, that actually compared the airtightness of several approaches and showed, numerically, that stuffed fiberglass sucks. I have probably made it clear in the past that I am not much of a fan of foam, but there are places, such as around windows, that foam is simply the best all round product to use. While polyurethane foam does a superb job of insulating the space, it more importantly provides an excellent airseal. Only caulking over a backer rod comes close in performance. But there are other benenfits. Has anyone tried to remove a foamed in window? The bond is so strong it is almost impossible without wrecking the window, and yet a 2 minute cut with a reciprocating saw allows easy removal. How about rain penetration resistance. One of the bigger moisture problems in housing that I see in other areas of this continent (esp SE US and NW, although I hear California has this problem too) is windows that leak into walls. Foaming around the window greatly minimizes the potential for a leaky window to dump its water into the gap between the window and the rough opening -- after which that water flows all over doing bad stuff. The entire window frame, including under the header, should be foamed. Polyurethane foam is not stiff enough to transfer significant load to the window (unless something is very wrong with the header, eg, it too small). I would recommend made for the purpose low-expansion foam, although with care you can use the high expansion stuff (I do when I am doing it myself). I also beleive that a simple rule demanding at least 2 passess costs nothing, reduces over expansion problems, and ensures the whole space is filled. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 11:27:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA03784 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:27:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05638; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:22:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:18:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04886 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:18:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04880 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:18:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-19-162.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.131.162]) by saturn.golden.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA02840; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:18:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:22:12 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE3E1D.CCB46260.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'David F. Lambertson'" , ledbalon , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: RE: Floor slabs and vapor barriers Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 10:15:20 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5682 On Monday, January 11, 1999 12:14 PM, David F. Lambertson [SMTP:dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu] wrote: > Richard, What do the Swedes commonly use for insulation? And, from your > statement above, are you suggesting that the thicker insulation also is a > moisture/vapor barrier? Sacie Lambertson As far as I know, the Swedes use both high-density mineral fiber and cellular plastic insulation under their slabs. As I discussed a few days ago, you dont need an additional vapour barrier. Most insulations like mineral fibre and foam plastic are capillary inactive and so act as a "moisture barrer" (whatever people mean by that imprecise term). Finally, the use of vapour permeable insulation (like mineral wool) actually dries the slab by placing the vapour pressure of the soil at a lower value than the concrete slab (this works best in cold climates though). ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 11:51:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04174 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:51:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08373; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:46:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:42:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07911 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:42:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07905 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (chtw03-24.pei.sympatico.ca [207.34.30.120]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA15306 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 11:45:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <369B7C04.4239@pei.sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:44:52 -0400 From: Phil Ferraro Reply-To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Subdivision design References: <01BE3E1D.C8B60BA0.jfstraube@golden.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5683 >From Envirolinks News Service: Rethinking the Subdivision Design -- Big homes on big lawns on long winding roads. That's how many residential subdivisions have been designed for decades. Now, some people are trying to change these traditional methods and make development less damaging to the environment. The Great Lakes Radio Consortium's Todd Witter visits one site. Hear the story: http://www.glrc.org/archivera/1999/january99ra/jan11/witter.ram -- Phil Ferraro, Executive Director, P.E.I. ADAPT Council c/o The Farm Centre, 420 University Avenue, Room 103 Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island Canada C1A 7Z5 Phone: (902) 368-2005 Fax: (902) 368-2520 (phone first) Email: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 13:19:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00911 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:19:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18134; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:15:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:11:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17682 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:10:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (cdrom.nahbrc.org [38.201.56.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17667 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:10:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM by rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id aa081562 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:01:39 -0500 From: "Peter Yost" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:11:19 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Vinyl-framed Windows In-reply-to: <1296017484-93383@irisinc.com> X-Info: NT Mail Server Message-Id: <21013946805973@NAHBRC.ORG> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5684 Bruce: In my 30-yr old house, I considered all the options--replacement vinyl, new units, new storms, replacement sash kits--decided to go with the replacement sash kit because: 1. Changed the window appearance the least. 2. Easiest for ME to do. 3. good thermal performance of total unit because I insulated between the rough opening and the old window frame while the interior trim was off (the company I selected had a replacement system which involved installing a new jamb liner and parting stop). However, the first replacement brand I went with (the same company as the original unit) on two of my home's 14 units was a disaster. The directions were lousy, the mechanical fasteners--custom pieces--were flimsy, basically useless without jury-rigging, and the bottom sash came with the bottom frame piece square-cut and of course my sill slopes down and out on an angle. I got terrible support from the distributor AND the manufacturer (even given the nature of my work and my employer). I will happily identify the company off the discussion list but you can understand my reluctance, much as I would like to, given I am responding on the list not as an individual but as a representative of my company. Short story is the sash replacement idea is a simple, clean, and efficient option if your window frame is in good shape but be careful of the individual manufacturer. Not all windows--whether they be vinyl, wood, aluminum--are created equal. Peter Yost pyost@nahbrc.org 301-249-4000 x542 http://www.nahbrc.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 13:21:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00984 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:21:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14357; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:37:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:33:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA13916 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:33:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA13911 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip434.efn.org [206.163.181.178]) by clavin.efn.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA25199; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 09:34:15 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: "Bruce Sullivan" , "Green Building" Subject: Re: GBlist: Vinyl-framed Windows Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 08:19:26 -0800 Message-ID: <01be3e47$52dd7d80$bab5a3ce@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5685 My UNDERSTANDING (correct me if I'm wrong) is that vinyl windows, vinyl siding (yuck), vinyl gutters, PVC piping, vinyl flooring, etc. are all of a family of chemicals called Organo Chlorines. Al Gore (the Vice President) goes into some detail in his book, "Earth in the Balance" about what an insidious family of chemicals this is. The most insidious thing about it is that we really don't know what they do and we live in a society where chemicals are granted the same rights as humans in the sense that they are innocent until proven guilty. But it seems that Organo Chlorines effect us down to the genetic level, they last forever and they are now everywhere in the environment - thanks to our carelessness. They may have a lot to do with rising cancer rates and dropping sperm counts, but we don't know. I made perfectly nice wooden windows myself. I think you've seen them, Bruce. I'll be making more in the future - trying to perfect the design. In either case, I'm going to try never to use vinyl windows again - at least certainly not for a project that I have control over. Rob >Here's my dilemma. The 100-year old farmhouse that we moved into last >summer is about to be weatherized (and not a moment too soon, brrr). In >addition to wall and floor insulation, we hope to replace the single pane >windows. > >After reading Greenpeace material and the article in EBN a while back >about the toxic side effects of vinyl manufacturing, I'm concerned about >supporting this industry. > >Naturally, the cost of vinyl is far lower than wood-framed windows. We >have these bids: > > vinyl (installed) $2500 > Norco wood with aluminum cladding (not installed) $4000 > Marvin primed wood (not installed) $6100 > >With this kind of cost difference, there's a distinct possibility that >it's vinyl or nothing -- at least for several years. Even if we decide on >the wood, we have to install 24 windows, which would take several months >of weekend warrior time. > >Are there are other factors that might favor vinyl? They last a long >time. They save lots of energy. They don't require painting every few >years. By considering vinyl, am I just trying to save money? Would it be >better to wait several years, to save up the extra money for wood. > >Thanks for sharing your opinions with me. > >Bruce S ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 13:47:22 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01564 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:47:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20491; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:38:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19881 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:37:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19866 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:37:53 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 7IFa003472; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:36:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19e3e462.369b963b@aol.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:36:43 EST To: pyost@nahbrc.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: RE: Replacement Windows Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5686 Check out Pella's replacement window options. Made custom to 1/8" tolerances in any of Pella's numerouse glazing configurations, including the one with removable interior storm panels, so there is no chance of ever having a seal failure. The units come in a narrow frame that fits inside your old frame after removing the old sash stops. Aluminum clad. Perhaps also available in all wood? As easy to install as a vinyl replacement window with all the weather detailing done at the factory. Pretty hard to beat if your time is worth anything. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 14:17:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02140 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:17:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23466; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:12:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:08:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22836 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub-2.cns.ksu.edu (root@noc.net.ksu.edu [129.130.12.118]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22824 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:08:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from cbs (cbs.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.4]) by mailhub-2.cns.ksu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1/mailhub-2+tar) with ESMTP id NAA22833; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:09:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost by cbs (8.8.8+Sun/1.34) id NAA29660; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:09:25 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:09:25 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Manney X-Sender: tmanney@cbs.ksu.ksu.edu To: Neil Spiegel cc: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: CADD Software Suggestions In-Reply-To: <36965E53.CE19317C@atlasinc.on.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5687 Fine Homebuilding magazine ran a review of CAD programs under $500 in their Sept. 1996 issue. On the basis of that I bought TurboCAD 3.0 for about $100 and have found it very useful. Having no other experience, I cannot compare it with others. I use it mostly for designing cabinets and find its dimension arithmetic in fractions quite satisfactory, saving me a lot of time. It's very satisfying to use because the snap modes make it so easy to make precision drawings with something as awkward as a mouse ("like trying to draw with a brick..."). Tom Manney tmanney@ksu.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 14:19:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02183 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:19:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23705; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:15:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:10:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23129 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:10:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from srunet.sru.edu (srunet.sru.edu [192.148.234.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23103 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:10:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from phoenix.sru.edu ([205.149.64.44] helo=rockmail.sru.edu) by srunet.sru.edu with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for greenbuilding@crest.org id 100AEV-0000wY-00; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:16:11 -0500 Received: from oemcomputer ([208.231.49.204]) by rockmail.sru.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with SMTP id AAA2FDA for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:11:34 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990112191116.00686f94@rockmail.sru.edu> X-Sender: jdt4006@rockmail.sru.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:11:16 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Jeremy Truog Subject: Re: GBlist: straw partition insulation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5688 Keith, My program here has a barn where part of it is built using clay/straw for the walls. I wasn't around to help build it, but from what I hear clay/straw may be too much work and mess for just some interior partitions where thermal insulation isn't a major consideration. Maybe consider loose-fill straw? Just some thoughts, Jeremy Truog At 08:12 AM 1/11/99 -0800, you wrote: >Have completed the exterior of my straw bale house. the interior has >some 2x4 partitions that will be drywalled. I am considering using >straw or light straw clay to insulate the interior walls mainly for >sound reduction. > >Is it necessary to use clay treated straw? Any other thoughts, >pitfalls? > >Thanks > >Keith Jeremy Truog 143 N. Center St. #2 Grove City, PA 16127 (724) 458-5198 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 14:38:04 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02468 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:38:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25151; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:33:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:29:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24800 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:29:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from gard.com (gardnet-router.soho.enteract.com [207.229.163.110]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24789 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:29:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from jg-abacus [192.168.0.5] by gard.com [207.229.163.105] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP4.R) for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:15:40 -0600 From: "Jason Glazer" Organization: GARD Analytics To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 13:19:38 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Commercial Building Energy Standard - ASHRAE Standard 90.1 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Return-Path: JGlazer@gard.com Reply-To: jglazer@gard.com Message-ID: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5689 The standard that regulates energy using equipment for many U.S. commercial buildings and serves as the basis for many local energy codes is in the process of being revised and is seeking input from the HVAC and energy communities. A proposed revision of ASHRAE's Standard 90.1 has been released for in six portions called Independent Substantive Changes. Anyone can submit comments from January 8 to March 9. This will be your last chance to influence the process of developing a new standard since it will be going into a continuous review mode this summer. It is available for download at: http://www.ashrae.org/STANDARDS/availdft.htm Six different independent substantive changes cover lighting, mechanical, ECB, power, envelope and format and compliance. The comment forms are in Word 7 and the independent substantive changes are in Adobe Acrobat files (PDFs). Comments are accepted by e-mail or ftp although it looks like a signature needs to be faxed or "snail" mailed separately. The sections are$15 to $30 each. The January ASHRAE Journal article announcing the public review has not yet been posted to the ASHRAE web site. Please feel free to copy this message to any relevant forums. Jason ========================================================= Jason Glazer, P.E. mailto:jglazer@gard.com 847 698 5686 GARD Analytics - http://www.gard.com/ Building Energy Simulation and Analysis 90.1 List Administrator & Consultant ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 14:43:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02598 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25722; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:38:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:34:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25246 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:34:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25242 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:34:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA25402 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:35:28 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:35:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sa5-p14.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.206]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA04653 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:35:03 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sa5-p14.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.206] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:35:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <369BA354.70A27F8A@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 14:32:36 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: CADD Software Suggestions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5690 Tom Manney wrote: > > Fine Homebuilding magazine ran a review of CAD programs under $500 in > their Sept. 1996 issue. On the basis of that I bought TurboCAD 3.0 for > about $100 and have found it very useful. For anyone out there looking to get a feel for CAD on the cheap: upFront.eZine "The First News for CAD" On your desktop every Tuesday morning. Issue #136 -- Tuesday, 12 January 1999 "What's going on over at http://www.imsisoft.com/ ? Am I the last person to notice this? Turbo CAD for absolutely free?" -- Ben Logan The editor replies: "They've done this before, giving away thousands of copies of TurboCAD -- two years ago, I think -- calling it the 'Corporate Seeding Program.' Notice the catch: they hope to get you to pay for the upgrades."___ Chuck Hinckley Ash Creek Design ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 15:50:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04213 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:50:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01332; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:45:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:41:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00575 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:41:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00556 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:41:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from myrtle.rtpnc.epa.gov by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26439) with ESMTP id <0F5G00IZ7R3I7K@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:19:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26438) with SMTP id <0F5G0056RR3QNS@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:19:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:17:36 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:18:45 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: Lights of America To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5691 You guys are making me nervous! I bought one of their new 3-way circlelights over a year ago and a regular single setting circle lights at the same time. So far, so good. Maybe I got two of their anomalies? Steve O. >>> "Rogers, Mike" 01/12/99 09:36am >>> Another LOA horror story. I recently purchased one of their CFL fixture (hardwired, not just a screw in bulb). The electronic ballast fried (my wife said it sounded like a bug zapper) after four weeks of use. Fortunately, I was able to return it to the place of purchase. LOA does give the fixture a one-year over the counter replacement gaurantee, but that doesn't reassure me. I seem to have had good luck with Phillips replacement bulbs. > Hmmm, saw your comment on "Lights of America" and did a double-take. I purchased two of their lights. One went in a recessed can and blew out in two days. The other went in a standard lamp and lasted only a few months (the package said 10 years). ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 15:50:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04218 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01330; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:45:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:41:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00581 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:41:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00558 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:41:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from myrtle.rtpnc.epa.gov by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26439) with ESMTP id <0F5G00GI9QUICZ@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:14:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26438) with SMTP id <0F5G008G5QTTJH@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:13:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:11:41 -0500 Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 15:12:44 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom venting -Reply To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5692 One other point to keep in mind, of course, is efficiency. Many bathroom fans will deliver about 1 cfm per watt. Good ones can deliver over 3 cfm per watt. So in addition to sound levels and efficient lighting, don't forget efficiency. Best, Steve O. >>> ledbalon 01/12/99 10:09am >>> Dan You might want to check out Broan and Nutone. They both make combination light / fan units. They start at well under $100. Remember you get what you pay for ... I recommend the higher $ units since they are quiet and use real ball bearings in the fans. Ball bearings rather that bushings make the units last much longer and stay quieter. I use a figure of 1.5 CFM per square foot of bathroom to size the units... This tends to keep the bathroom free of excess moisture. The other thing that I recommend is to put a timer on the fan. It is a real utility killer when you leave a vent fan on and find that it causes many changes of air through the house over the course of the day. What I mean is that it will move all of your heated or cooled air out of your home ... So I use a 15 minute timer. Steve P Dan and Pam wrote: > Can anyone recommend a good light/fan combination for bathroom venting? > I know Panasonic and Fan Tech make good fans, but I don't know if they > make combo units. It seems that most of the units in houses are actually > light/white noise makers. In lieu of an overhead fan, does anyone have > experience with a through-wall fan (for an outside wall), instead of > going up into the attic? > Thanks > Dan Harazim > Canterbury, CT > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 16:14:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA04693 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:14:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA03701; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:09:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:05:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA03023 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:05:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA03019 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:05:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:02:58 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E2CD@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: Bathroom venting -Reply Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:02:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5693 According to their specs, the Panasonic fans can deliver 4-5+ cfm per watt. And they really are quiet. I have to concentrate to hear the 50 and 70 cfm models. I've heard many tales of people who don't like to use their fan 'cause they're too darned noisy. In fact, I'm wondering if I can retrofit a Pansonic fan into my old Broan range hood. Has anyone tried this? If not, I'll break out the screw driver and let you know how it goes. > -----Original Message----- > From: STEPHEN OFFUTT [mailto:OFFUTT.STEPHEN@epamail.epa.gov] > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 3:13 PM > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom venting -Reply > > > One other point to keep in mind, of course, is efficiency. > Many bathroom fans will > deliver about 1 cfm per watt. Good ones can deliver over 3 > cfm per watt. So in addition > to sound levels and efficient lighting, don't forget efficiency. > > Best, > Steve O. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 16:25:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA05005 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:25:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA05382; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:20:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:17:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04886 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:16:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04878 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:16:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:14:09 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E2CF@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: bathroom venting - outside vent caps Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 16:14:01 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5694 I've seen a outside bathroom vent cap designed to minimize back flow into the home when the fan is not operating. it looks like a plastic housing, with a stopper that lifts and permits air through when the fan is on, but that drops down and doesn't permit air to flow back from the outside. Has anyone used these? My two questions are [not counting the one I just asked above]: Any problems with condensation/freeze up in the cold, cold, winter? How much resistance do they add, i.e., how much do they reduce cfm output of the fan? Mike Rogers ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 18:32:03 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA07277 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:32:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA13999; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:21:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13496 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (vykAgGGdHah70G1b/+Y0JOZaavYus9ez@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13492 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:21:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (PaqJ++0z/KYFP9YHbtBbUtmS4j9EAhlp@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA11160; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:22:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA20255; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:22:32 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <369BD92A.2CFFA23C@gs.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:22:19 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rogers, Mike" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom venting -Reply References: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E2CD@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5695 The thing that you have to look for is SONE measurement. The lower the sones the better to not hear you with... "Rogers, Mike" wrote: > According to their specs, the Panasonic fans can deliver 4-5+ cfm per watt. > > And they really are quiet. I have to concentrate to hear the 50 and 70 cfm > models. I've heard many tales of people who don't like to use their fan > 'cause they're too darned noisy. > > In fact, I'm wondering if I can retrofit a Pansonic fan into my old Broan > range hood. Has anyone tried this? > > If not, I'll break out the screw driver and let you know how it goes. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: STEPHEN OFFUTT [mailto:OFFUTT.STEPHEN@epamail.epa.gov] > > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 3:13 PM > > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > > Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom venting -Reply > > > > > > One other point to keep in mind, of course, is efficiency. > > Many bathroom fans will > > deliver about 1 cfm per watt. Good ones can deliver over 3 > > cfm per watt. So in addition > > to sound levels and efficient lighting, don't forget efficiency. > > > > Best, > > Steve O. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 18:32:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA07282 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:32:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14134; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:27:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:23:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13681 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:23:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (gLljpU/8AtJJdoM3Te3KourYXYyMHimR@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13675 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:23:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (W/62nRJ70OilHpTUAM+jko9sQ2+j7nAm@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA11216; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:24:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA20307; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:24:37 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <369BD9A8.589EA50E@gs.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:24:24 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rogers, Mike" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: bathroom venting - outside vent caps References: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E2CF@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5696 A closed vent gathers no moisture... But an open one will allow you to vent your frustrations in having a noisy fan. "Rogers, Mike" wrote: > I've seen a outside bathroom vent cap designed to minimize back flow into > the home when the fan is not operating. it looks like a plastic housing, > with a stopper that lifts and permits air through when the fan is on, but > that drops down and doesn't permit air to flow back from the outside. > > Has anyone used these? > > My two questions are [not counting the one I just asked above]: Any > problems with condensation/freeze up in the cold, cold, winter? How much > resistance do they add, i.e., how much do they reduce cfm output of the fan? > > Mike Rogers > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 19:54:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08262 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:54:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA18341; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:49:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:44:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA17993 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:44:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA17989 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:44:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-6-219.cyberzone.net [209.150.6.219]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:26:21 -0500 Message-ID: <369C1796.7AC7@cyberzone.net> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 19:48:38 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: The saga of the vapor barrier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5697 I've been having heartburn over the issue of vapor barriers in the new house. My builder, and also the building official, says that if you use blown-in insulation, you don't need a vapor barrier, because the manufacturer doesn't recommend it. The building official cited an instance of mildew on the ceiling on a house with a vapor barrier and blown-in fiberglass (don't waste time speculating!). The code doesn't specifically require a vapor barrier. The building official is interested in listening to any and all reasoned arguments on this issue. I called Owens Corning in Ohio and spoke to a technical representative on the matter. He says Owens Corning DOES recommend the use of a vapor barrier, but that there are many situations where one is not required. He pointed out that with reasonable indoor RH, and a well-ventilated attic, there will be no moisture condensing inside the insulation, because of the air flow and the fact that the insulation is 90% air, so there's nothing to condense on! Basically, "recommending" is not a mandate, and if it is not required by code, then it, too, is not a mandate. Therefore it is translated into "the manufacturer doesn't recommend it." I am astonished at this entire episode, and will have a vapor barrier installed in any case, since I don't live in a perfect world or building assembly. I suggested to the rep that Owens Corning really isn't doing any favors by causing this kind of confusion - if they recommend it, then they should simply insist that a vapor barrier is part of a complete building envelope, dependent on geographical area. Of course, they sell insulation, not vapor barriers. If any of you listers are interested in addressing this topic in the vein of educating code officials and technical reps (clear, concise, and technical, without rancor or invective!), I'd appreciate it. I know there have been discussions on this list before. I'll forward the comments on to the appropriate people by fax or email. Thanks. Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 22:07:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA10036 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:07:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24289; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:02:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:57:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA23820 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:57:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.gis.net (home.gis.net [208.218.130.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA23815 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:57:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [216.41.32.18] ([216.41.32.18]) by home.gis.net (8.8.8/8.8.8+djf) with SMTP id VAA00644 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:58:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:06:48 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: markalla@gis.net (Mark and Alla Webster) Subject: Re: GBlist: Lights of America Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5698 I've experienced short life for the LOA replacement bulbs as well. I've tried Philips, which have been fairly good, but the one I recently installed in the basement stopped working after only about 40 hours of use. What's the story here? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 23:31:47 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11166 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:31:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27830; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:27:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:21:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27463 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:21:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27453 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:21:20 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ699112; Tue, 12 Jan 99 21:20:54 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17072; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:20:02 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 21:20:02 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: "Rogers, Mike" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: bathroom venting - outside vent caps In-Reply-To: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E2CF@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5699 Roger: We have 2 of them redy to be installed. If it is from Heartland Products inc., they look good to me, but no real-world experience yet. Jorg Ostrowski ____________________________________________________________________ On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, Rogers, Mike wrote: > > I've seen a outside bathroom vent cap designed to minimize back flow into > the home when the fan is not operating. it looks like a plastic housing, > with a stopper that lifts and permits air through when the fan is on, but > that drops down and doesn't permit air to flow back from the outside. > > Has anyone used these? > > My two questions are [not counting the one I just asked above]: Any > problems with condensation/freeze up in the cold, cold, winter? How much > resistance do they add, i.e., how much do they reduce cfm output of the fan? > > Mike Rogers > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 23:41:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11263 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:41:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA28624; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:31:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA28005 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:31:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA28001 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:31:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.magma.ca (mail2.magma.ca [206.191.0.218]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA19224; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:32:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (port-2-144.magma.ca [206.191.63.144]) by mail2.magma.ca (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA14953; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:32:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901130432.XAA14953@mail2.magma.ca> X-Sender: stephen@mail.magma.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:17:38 -0500 To: timex@pathcom.com, "greenbuilding" From: Stephen Thwaites Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Windows In-Reply-To: <199901112256.RAA16059@atlas.pathcom.com> References: <1296040567-1977346@irisinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5700 Try Peter at Simon & Son's in Newmarket. I know him from our buying group. Seems to be a good guy. For general info about windows take a look at Natural Resources Canada's Consumer's Buying Guide for Energy Efficient Windows. If you can't find it at a local lumberyard, the whole thing is on our website (plug,plug,plug) www.thermotechwindows.com At 05:56 PM 1/11/99 +0000, timex@pathcom.com wrote: >Listers from Ontario:...... >I have printed off all the window advice from the list that I have saved, >but she is wondering if any of you from our area could recommend a window >company/installer who works the Barrie/Newmarket area. > >Thanks for any recomendations. >marilyn Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ltd Ottawa Canada (the world's snowiest and second coldest national capital) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 12 23:41:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11271 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:41:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA28656; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:36:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:31:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA28016 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:31:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA28012 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:31:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.magma.ca (mail2.magma.ca [206.191.0.218]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA19234; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:32:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (port-2-144.magma.ca [206.191.63.144]) by mail2.magma.ca (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA14964; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:32:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901130432.XAA14964@mail2.magma.ca> X-Sender: stephen@mail.magma.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:59:58 -0500 To: John Salmen , Bruce Sullivan From: Stephen Thwaites Subject: Re: GBlist: Vinyl-framed Windows Cc: Green Building In-Reply-To: <369A8CFC.98C582E0@cow-net.com> References: <1296027210-2780852@irisinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5701 At 03:45 PM 1/11/99 -0800, John Salmen wrote: > >The wood in aluminum clad wood windows is dipped in a fungicide , and I think >this is odd that it is not disclosed by manufacturers as I doubt some of the >ingredients are approved for interior use. The treatment is intended to >prolong the life of the clad exterior wood which I think would be subject to >quick decay because of the nature of the cladding and its limitations - some >manufacturers will provide untreated versions but will not warranty the >product. I'm curious to look at some of the 'best' brands to see what a >realistic expectation of lifespan is. > Most window standards require that wood be preservative treated. Manufacturers have had to do this for so long, it probably doesn't occour to them to spend much time on this in their literature. Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ltd. Ottawa Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 00:07:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11610 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:07:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA01616; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:02:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:57:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA00880 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub-2.cns.ksu.edu (root@noc.net.ksu.edu [129.130.12.118]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00875 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from cbs (cbs.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.4]) by mailhub-2.cns.ksu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1/mailhub-2+tar) with ESMTP id WAA28709; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:57:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost by cbs (8.8.8+Sun/1.34) id WAA06175; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:57:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:57:55 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Manney X-Sender: tmanney@cbs.ksu.ksu.edu To: ledbalon cc: "Rogers, Mike" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom venting -Reply In-Reply-To: <369BD92A.2CFFA23C@gs.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5702 I appreciate enough noise from the fan to remind me that it is on..The timer switch is a good idea. Can anyone recommend a good one? Tom Manney ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 00:07:53 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11623 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:07:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA01717; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 00:03:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:57:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA00946 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:57:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [209.210.78.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00938 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:57:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from nistone (usr44.cwo.com [207.173.11.44]) by mail.cwo.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA32476 for ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:58:22 -0800 Message-ID: <00d801be3eb1$4894d700$180badcf@nistone> Reply-To: "Nehemiah I. Stone" From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: windows Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:57:50 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5703 There have been a number of comments of late relating the various critieria by which we judge good windows from bad. Virtually every commenter, with the exception of Peter Yost, has generalized about the characteristics and window materials they discussed. I would like to issue a strong urging not to take those generalizations too much to heart. Specifically, 1) One vinyl window extrusion manufacturer that I know of recycles all the vinyle waste from their products - whether the waste is created at the extrusion plant or at the window fabricator's plant. Can this be said of their competitors either in the vinyl business or the aluminum or wood window business? "Absolutely not" to the first, and "generally not," to the second. 2) One window manufacturer that makes mostly wood windows recycles both the vinyl from their "small" vinyl line and the sawdust from their wood window line into a composite product that is supposedly stronger than either and performs as well, energy and strength wise, as either. 3) Vinyl window extrusions have very specific performance criteria (bending strength, resistance to puncture, resistance to heat-related deflection, minimized coefficient of expansion, etc.) that they CAN be certified to. Not all manufacturers do. Those who don't, produce product that engenders such comments as, "they crack," "they get brittle," and "you can melt the meeting rail with a propane torch." those who certify to the industry standard make a product that defies such characterization. Unfortunately, the former get most of the attention. 4) Good vinyl windows have been used in Europe for decades. Vinyl windows have become the window of choice. (This is because they paid attention to good design before their American window manufacturing counterparts did.) does it seem likely that the place where the 100 year mortgage is a fact of market, would chose to make vinyl windows the window of choice if the problems that some "brands" exhibited were insurmouontable by any manufacturer? 5) I have not verified this myself, so I stand to be corrected if somone on this list has definitive information to the contrary, but I understand that the fungicide on wood window frames is not "soaked" in, but applied to the portion of the frame which will be covered by the cladding. This portion of the frame is outside the building envelope. It would be extremely rare that the home occupant could come in contact with the treated surface of the wood. Finally, I would ask those who are about to eschew vinyl widow frames, do you also stay your distance from all other vinyl products? ... either if there is an alternative or if there isn't? Think about what you use that's vinyl or has major vinyl parts: calculator computer car garden hoses (especially drip irrigation systems) combs brushes rain gear televisions radios kitchen utensils rulers and drafting aids vinyl coated "sinkers" (framers nails) etc. etc. etc. I have no love of the vinyl industry. I have no interest in any window company. I simply like to see people consider the full story before drawing conclusions. Nehemiah Stone ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 01:46:00 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA12500 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 01:46:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA04558; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 01:41:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 01:36:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA04276 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 01:36:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA04272 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 01:36:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.202]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 8038900 ; Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:41:48 -0800 Message-ID: <369C3E8D.2839E387@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:34:53 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Nehemiah I. Stone" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: windows References: <00d801be3eb1$4894d700$180badcf@nistone> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5704 In general I agree with your concerns on generalizations but have to say that in the case of some materials and processes it is useful to make sloppy noises in the general negative direction, if only to see how industry responds. Vinyl is a good case in point. To speak of quality vinyl seems a misnomer (or mismonomer) - vinyl is a cheap plastic by design (its wide use is a indicator of some design success), a poor use of its base ingredients and a misuse of environment. As pressure grows against vinyl production and evidence of its toxicity both in manufacture and use grows it seems regressive to promote or defend its use despite the option it seemingly creates for initial low-cost windows. There are better plastics and could be better still if as in the case of cfc's some practices were discouraged. I would defend my general criticisms of vinyl because it is in the nature of the material to fail in fairly defined ways. My concerns however were more in the direction of what generally happens with the material upon failure - typically the units are replaced. I personally would like to know if actual life of a unit in place would typically exceed that of the glazing. I would also like to know more about contemporary European experience with vinyl. I do know it is (was) used typically as an exterior cladding on a wood window and in the case of some german windows can be renewed. It is difficult here to make comparisons because of substantial differences on window design. A typical german tilt and turn window sash is over 3" in wooden stock thickness. The use of vinyl cladding is not that old there and it would be useful to know how it is doing and what other products are being used or are being phased in. The use of fingerjointing paint grade wood window stock was also pioneered in Europe with the end result of a lot of moisture related joint failure - so its not a perfect place either. As to preservative treatment I know that with Pella the material (complete components) is dipped and the use of dipping for such treatment is a standard approach for the millwork industry. The ingredients for Pella's treatment are: Polyphase=ICBO 3 parts IOCO (iodine) 2 parts Propynyl Butyl Carbamate (fungicide) Chloropyriofof (insecticide) (Dursban) 98% mineral spirits I am not familiar with the fungicide mentioned but am familiar with chlordane/dursban studies and its not nice stuff to have in an interior. Some might mention that concentrations from wood windows would be negligible but you could add it to the other similar negligibles continuously and innocuously added to a growing list of interior products. John Nehemiah I. Stone wrote: > There have been a number of comments of late relating the various critieria > by which we judge good windows from bad. Virtually every commenter, with > the exception of Peter Yost, has generalized about the characteristics and > window materials they discussed. I would like to issue a strong urging not > to take those generalizations too much to heart. Specifically, ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 02:19:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA12849 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:19:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA06735; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:15:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:09:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA06247 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:09:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA06243 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:09:07 -0500 (EST) From: Strawnet@aol.com Received: from Strawnet@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id JEBHa04329; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:08:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 02:08:38 EST To: lstage@pobox.com, jkliston@htcnet.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: a forwarded inquiry Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Claris Emailer v1.0 sub 3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5705 A friend forwarded this inquiry to me and I thought I'd pass it on to this list and ask that if anyone has information that might help these folks you respond directly to John and Kim at . Thanks David Eisenberg >Dear Lisa > >I don't know if you can answer my question or not but maybe you can >direct me to someone who can. I know that in Arizona you may not have >quite as much trouble with humidity as we do here in Nebraska. We are >building a new earth bermed home in eastern Nebraska. Our contractor is >new to this type of building so we have had to do alot of research >ourselves. We are convinced that this is the type of home we want but >they are bringing up questions that I am not sure how to answer >correctly. We are not planning on having any air conditioning and they >are concerned about a humidity build up in the summer. Do you have any >knowledge about this type of construction? None of the underground >homes or earth bermed that we have read about in the past have had the >need for AC. If you can give us any information about this I would >appreciate it. Thank You. >John and Kim >From: lstage@pobox.com (Lisa Stage) >To: jkliston@htcnet.com >CC: strawnet@aol.com >John and Kim, > >I'm forwarding your e-mail to David Eisenbeg at the Development Center for >Appropriate Technology, in case he has any help for you. My suggestions >are: > >Check with your local Association of Energy Engineers for an EE who has >experience with unconventional/sustainable heating and cooling and the >associated ventilation needs. > >Dr. R.S. Olsen has a website on earth-bermed and underground houses that >has several potentially useful links. http://www.liquefaction.com/berm.htm > >It sounds like you have already read about Malcolm Wells' underground >houses. You might try to track down architects, engineers or contractors >associated with some of those projects for consulation. > >Good Luck! > >Lisa >________________ David Eisenberg Co-Director Development Center for Appropriate Technology P.O. Box 27513 Tucson, AZ 85726-7513 (520) 624-6628 (520) 798-3701 fax dcat@azstarnet.com strawnet@aol.com (direct personal e-mail) http://www.azstarnet.com/~dcat/ http://www.azstarnet.com/~dcat/barriers.htm Check out the feature articles on Alternative Materials and Methods of Construction in ICBO's Sept/Oct 1998 Building Standards Magazine. It's all online - linked from our website or go to: http://www.icbo.org/Building_Standards_Online/ Click on the "Features and Articles" section and scroll down to find them... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 05:17:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA14185 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 05:17:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA10773; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 05:12:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 05:06:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA10333 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 05:06:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA10328 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 05:06:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-229.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.229]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 04:47:59 -0500 Message-ID: <369C9B5F.2DA3@cyberzone.net> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 05:10:55 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Daptex Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5706 Someone recently mentioned a latex foam from Dap. It's called Daptex and you can look at it at www.dap.com under "what's new." I asked them for more info on it, and if anyone has used it I'd appreciate comments. Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 08:09:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA15236 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:09:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA17283; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:05:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:59:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA16664 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:59:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA16656 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 07:59:14 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ955812; Wed, 13 Jan 99 06:00:07 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA105286; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 05:59:51 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 05:59:51 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Dan and Pam Cc: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Daptex In-Reply-To: <369C9B5F.2DA3@cyberzone.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5707 We have used it and like it for the following reasons: 1) it is latex 2) the can be used to the end (not typical) 3) does not expand out of control (expansion is smaller than usual) 4) sets soft, not hard (will not crack window frames) 5) easy clean-up with water 6) others that I do not know ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Dan and Pam wrote: > > Someone recently mentioned a latex foam from Dap. It's called Daptex > and you can look at it at www.dap.com under "what's new." I asked them > for more info on it, and if anyone has used it I'd appreciate comments. > Regards, > Dan Harazim > Canterbury, CT > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 09:18:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15926 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:18:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19988; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:14:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:08:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19574 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:08:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19570 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:08:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-9-123.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.9.123]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA02830; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:09:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <369CAAFA.2BE43B27@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:17:30 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: Dan and Pam , greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Daptex References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5708 A second for this product. I've used it recently to draftproof an older home and it was a dream to work with compared to other products. It doesn't expand as much but is very easy to build up. And you can touch it with a glove. I find the other expandable product scary to work with (they smell bad and the clean up instructions include acetone. Personally I'd take water over acetone most days :) N P.S. It does not expand nearly as much as the other products. "Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: > > We have used it and like it for the following reasons: > 1) it is latex > 2) the can be used to the end (not typical) > 3) does not expand out of control (expansion is smaller than usual) > 4) sets soft, not hard (will not crack window frames) > 5) easy clean-up with water > 6) others that I do not know > ***************************************************************************** > Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. > - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > - college campus and office tower recofit under construction > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 > Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > ######################################################### > > On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Dan and Pam wrote: > > > > > Someone recently mentioned a latex foam from Dap. It's called Daptex > > and you can look at it at www.dap.com under "what's new." I asked them > > for more info on it, and if anyone has used it I'd appreciate comments. > > Regards, > > Dan Harazim > > Canterbury, CT > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 09:39:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16197 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:39:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21074; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:34:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:29:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA20751 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:29:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (root@kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA20747 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:29:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.53 (pm1-21.hoosier.net [206.106.67.53]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02593; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:30:06 -0500 Message-ID: <369C6798.1EF7@bloomington.in.us> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:30:00 +0000 From: John Bower Reply-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ledbalon CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: bathroom venting - outside vent caps References: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E2CF@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> <369BD9A8.589EA50E@gs.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5709 I've used the Heartland vent caps several times and like them. They seem to seal well, and they're easy to clean. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 10:28:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17010 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:28:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24030; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:23:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:18:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23402 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:17:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23398 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:17:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id JAA0000016804; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:18:47 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990113152147.006e8ac0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:21:47 -0600 To: Tom Manney , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist:venting timers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5710 At 10:57 PM 12-01-99 -0600, you wrote: >I appreciate enough noise from the fan to remind me that it is on..The >timer switch is a good idea. Can anyone recommend a good one? > >Tom Manney There are several out there depending on how long you want it on and the sophistication of the thing--the latter one is 'Airetrak' a microprocessor control system with a matching price of $89 from Tamarack; they have two mechanical timers in their catalogue too and these are similar to what the other good venting folks carry.. I just bought the 24 hr timer but haven't used it yet-hope it works better than those light on and off switches. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 10:32:36 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17153 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:32:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24493; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:27:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:22:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23840 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:22:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from hades.wvadventures.net (mail.wvadventures.net [207.87.249.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23836 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:22:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from wvadventures.net (207.87.249.41) by hades.wvadventures.net with MERCUR-SMTP/POP3/IMAP4-Server (v3.10.00 AS-0098309) for at Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:17:04 -0500 Message-ID: <369CBA9F.208CCCDC@wvadventures.net> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:24:15 -0500 From: "Gregory A. Boggs" Reply-To: gboggs@wvadventures.net Organization: Boggs Aviation, LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Eco-Industrial Parks Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5711 Hello, Has anyone developed or has been associated with Eco-Industrial Parks? I have a site in West Virginia that will be developed into an industrial park and I am interested in any feedback from anyone who has had experiences with Eco-Industrial Parks. Questions that I have are: 1) How much development time did it take. 2) What type of criteria was used for tenant selection. 3) Was any alternative energy used to power the buildings. 4) Has it had a positive impact on the surrounding community. Thanks for any insight. Greg Boggs gboggs@wvadventures.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 10:53:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17526 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:53:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26124; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:48:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:42:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25594 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:42:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25588 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:42:34 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ707016; Wed, 13 Jan 99 08:43:15 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17502; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:42:28 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:42:27 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: "Gregory A. Boggs" Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco-Industrial Parks In-Reply-To: <369CBA9F.208CCCDC@wvadventures.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5712 Greg: In 1973 I was the first consultant to the Federal Government to work on the transformation of the Toronto Waterfront from a 4 acre (?) industrial derelict zone off limits to the people of Toronto to a active public area today know as Harbourfront. Many of the old industrial buildings were recycled and are places of culture, cottage industry and celebration today. This may be of interest. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Gregory A. Boggs wrote: > > Hello, > > Has anyone developed or has been associated with Eco-Industrial > Parks? I have a site in West Virginia that will be developed into an > industrial park and I am interested in any feedback from anyone who has > had experiences with Eco-Industrial Parks. Questions that I have are: 1) > > How much development time did it take. 2) What type of criteria was used > > for tenant selection. 3) Was any alternative energy used to power the > buildings. 4) Has it had a positive impact on the surrounding > community. Thanks for any insight. > > Greg Boggs > gboggs@wvadventures.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 10:58:53 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17634 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:58:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26758; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:54:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:48:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26140 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:48:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26134 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:48:34 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ311829; Wed, 13 Jan 99 08:49:17 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA76734; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:48:46 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 08:48:46 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: "David F. Lambertson" Cc: Tom Manney , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist:venting timers In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19990113152147.006e8ac0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5713 Tom: I would also recommend Tamarak's controler, if you have 120VAC. They will not work with low voltage. Good people to work with. Jorg Ostrowski ________________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, David F. Lambertson wrote: > > At 10:57 PM 12-01-99 -0600, you wrote: > >I appreciate enough noise from the fan to remind me that it is on..The > >timer switch is a good idea. Can anyone recommend a good one? > > > >Tom Manney > > There are several out there depending on how long you want it on and the > sophistication of the thing--the latter one is 'Airetrak' a microprocessor > control system with a matching price of $89 from Tamarack; they have two > mechanical timers in their catalogue too and these are similar to what the > other good venting folks carry.. I just bought the 24 hr timer but haven't > used it yet-hope it works better than those light on and off switches. > Sacie Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 11:10:05 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17823 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:10:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27452; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:05:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:00:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27055 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:00:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (o8epZpa/Al3SpS9yoiLpHefC4T5ANqoy@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27016 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:59:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (vI4kZ7QjD1ZHjrnA0XsGPvenCQbj2Sm8@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA12735; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:00:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA23713; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:00:39 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <369CC30F.DA76314A@gs.net> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:00:15 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Daptex References: <369C9B5F.2DA3@cyberzone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5714 Recently used Daptex foam. A rather interesting product. It is a white foam that indeed does not harden so it must be covered or it can be easily destroyed. As a filler in-between a window casement and the framing where you would have both interior and exterior moldings to hold it in place seems like it would be an excellent product. I like to use the hardening type of foam as a filler for places such as repairs to holes. I will put a top coating product such as drywall compound or wood putty. With all of the other products which tend to out gas with modern building products and the limited scope that I use this product I do not feel it is an environmental problem. Now if we could just find something that did not have environmental problems such as paints and carpeting. Steve Dan and Pam wrote: > Someone recently mentioned a latex foam from Dap. It's called Daptex > and you can look at it at www.dap.com under "what's new." I asked them > for more info on it, and if anyone has used it I'd appreciate comments. > Regards, > Dan Harazim > Canterbury, CT > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 11:41:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18368 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:41:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29611; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:37:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:32:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29186 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:32:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from hades.wvadventures.net (mail.wvadventures.net [207.87.249.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29178 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:32:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from wvadventures.net (207.87.249.41) by hades.wvadventures.net with MERCUR-SMTP/POP3/IMAP4-Server (v3.10.00 AS-0098309) for at Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:28:21 -0500 Message-ID: <369CCB55.D58E8FB0@wvadventures.net> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:35:33 -0500 From: "Gregory A. Boggs" Reply-To: gboggs@wvadventures.net Organization: Boggs Aviation, LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jdo@ucalgary.ca CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco-Industrial Parks References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5715 Our project will be located in a very high unemployment area of West Virginia and is in the excavation stage right now, therefore, our priority lies in the job creation possibilities that 30 odd acres could bring to the community, be profitable (This is a private venture), yet sustainable. I should also add that adjacent to the park site, we are building a 4700' airport that I would like to make "Green" if economically feasible in conjunction with the Eco-Park idea. Any ideas how to attract green industries to an undeveloped location as ours? Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Greg: In 1973 I was the first consultant to the Federal Government to work > on the transformation of the Toronto Waterfront from a 4 acre (?) industrial > derelict zone off limits to the people of Toronto to a active public area today > know as Harbourfront. Many of the old industrial buildings were recycled and > are places of culture, cottage industry and celebration today. This may be > of interest. > ***************************************************************************** > Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. > - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > - college campus and office tower recofit under construction > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 > Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > ######################################################### > > On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Gregory A. Boggs wrote: > > > > > Hello, > > > > Has anyone developed or has been associated with Eco-Industrial > > Parks? I have a site in West Virginia that will be developed into an > > industrial park and I am interested in any feedback from anyone who has > > had experiences with Eco-Industrial Parks. Questions that I have are: 1) > > > > How much development time did it take. 2) What type of criteria was used > > > > for tenant selection. 3) Was any alternative energy used to power the > > buildings. 4) Has it had a positive impact on the surrounding > > community. Thanks for any insight. > > > > Greg Boggs > > gboggs@wvadventures.net > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 11:59:57 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18943 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:59:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00910; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:55:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:51:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00460 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:51:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00449 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:50:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.3.220.62]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.08) id 5554500 ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:54:55 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990113114504.006abf74@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:45:04 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: Vinyl-framed Windows In-Reply-To: <199901120325.WAA02421@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5716 Bruce Sullivan wrote: >My first idea was to keep the original wood sashes and replace the >glazing with sealed insulated units. I know that this can be done, but I >can't find anyone in Oregon that does it. Any of you Northwesterners know >of a contractor? > Can't help you with a northwestern contractor but in the northeast, mid-west, Texas and England a company called Bi-Glass has been doing what you describe for years. They have a system that they franchise. Don't appear to be any NW contractor's on their web site. More information at www.bi-glass.com. You might want to check with the local historic preservation organization/consultants. There are several contractors in my area (identified through a group called Historic York, Inc.) who restore and refurbish existing windows. Local price for refurbishing (weatherstripping, replacing cracked glass, etc.) here is about $80-$100/window. If you do end up replacing the windows, I'll put in a plug for fiberglass. Structural strength figures I have seen place them second to aluminum. The framing has a narrower profile than vinyl (more glass, less frame). The frame expands and contracts at a rate similar to the glass. Thermal performance is similar to wood and vinyl (much better than most aluminum even with thermal break). Some vinyl windows are better (overall quality) than others. I have seen some that literaly have fallen apart after a few years. Avoid cheap vinyl windows like the plague! The organization who certifies vinyl windows is the American Architectural Manufacturers Association (www.aamanet.org). Be sure the manufacturer is selling a quality, cerfified product. A really cheap vinyl product may account for the large price difference you reported. If this is the case you are not comparing apples to apples. With that said, I too avoid vinyl windows in all of my projects and would never use them in my home for environmental concerns already expressed. I also am in the process of removing all of the PVC piping in my house. Where I have been able to identify alternatives, I have acted. Don't know what to do yet in reagrds to my car, computer, etc. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 12:10:31 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA19161 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:10:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01902; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:05:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:01:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01508 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:01:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01500 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:01:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca (be417@freenet3 [134.117.136.23]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id MAA26945; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:02:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id MAA17436; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:02:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:02:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901131702.MAA17436@freenet3.carleton.ca> From: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Thermotech Windows Website Reply-To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5717 Hello GB-listpersons; I appreciate Stephen Thwaites' reserve in not exploiting this List to plug his firm's website and product. However, I am not as sensible as he is. Some time ago when I contacted a window researcher at NRCan for information, he referred me to the Thermotech website. It is an excellent source of unbiased information. It just so happens that Thermotech makes pretty darned good superwindows too... and they don't use that steenking PVC stuff to do it either. It sounds like Thermotech is willing to ship their pull-truded fiberglass window parts to any location so that those who are pull-trusion challenged may partake of the benefits of their superior technology. This service should help to reduce the costs of fixed-glass superwindows significantly. For the Murricans on the List: NRCan = Natural Resources Canada (formerly Energy, Mines and Resources, that branch of the Federal govt which is responsible for the preceding, and has no stake in Thermotech, as I do not) And "Shame !" on FlameBait Fred for even mentioning Pella on this hallowed listserve. Okay. Did I say it right Stephen ? Is my cheque in the mail ? -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 12:27:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA19833 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:27:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03307; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:22:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:18:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02818 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:18:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02799 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:18:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.75] (newhenyusr0-a79.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.79]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA11753; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:19:00 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:22:58 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: GBlist: windows and PVC Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5718 Nehemiah, I've got to weigh in on the PVC window debate. You basically argue that PVC can be made into windows which perform their window function well. Perhaps you are right. However, this says nothing about what to me is the root of the problem with PVC: during it's original manufacture and during it's eventual disposal, it is the source of many toxic pollutants. Of particular concern are chemicals like dioxins. The PVC industry and the Chlorine Chemical Council have done a pretty good public relations job of keeping the spot light off of this aspect of PVC. In the ongoing EPA re-evaluation of dioxin a glaring omission has been the failure to look into the dioxin released during PVC manufacture and disposal, including "disposal" during house fires. Greenpeace has done a good job at trying to bring these problems to the world's attention so visit their web site for more information. They have actually gone to the giant PVC manufacturing plants in the Gulf Coast and taken samples of water and other discharges and found high levels of dioxins. They have also gone to sites of building fires where large amounts of PVC burned and also found high levels of dioxins in surrounding areas. The EPA has often avoided doing these fundamental studies. I can not prove that wood or fiberglass windows have lower long-term negative environmental consequences than PVC windows. I think there are too many unknowns, and other than on this list, I haven't seen a lot of interest in actually trying to find the window with the lowest life-cycle environmental costs. However, I think the arguments against PVC should be made clear to all those interested in these issues. As far as your argument that we all use articles made from PVC all the time, so we shouldn't preach against it ... well, I try to avoid PVC as much as possible. The most difficult application to avoid is wire insulation. All the items you mentioned that have wires in them probably have wires insulated with PVC. However, the PVC wire insulation is a tiny fraction of these items' total weight. Furthermore, I think you are either mistaken or misleading in your list of items that are: "vinyl or [have] major vinyl parts". You list: calculator computer car garden hoses (especially drip irrigation systems) combs brushes rain gear televisions radios kitchen utensils rulers and drafting aids vinyl coated "sinkers" (framers nails) The plastic cases and major internal parts of my (and virtually all) calculators, computers, televisions, and radios are not made from PVC. They are other resins, which do not contain chlorine, and therefore are much less likely to entail release of dioxins and other organo-chlorines in their life-cycles. As for automobiles, the industry is starting to move away from using PVC for interiors because of the very issues environmentalists have brought up. And car parts made from PVC are a small fraction of the total weight of a car. Those plastic bumpers, grills, and body panels found in some cars are not PVC. I try to find garden hoses made of rubber instead of vinyl (they are usually higher quality too). Combs and brushes usually are not made of PVC. Most plastic kitchen utensils are not made of PVC but from other resins. Most rulers and drafting aids are not made from PVC but from other resins. I have never used vinyl coated sinkers and I have heard that in the long term they do not really have significantly better holding power than other nails. And if I need better holding power I simply drive regular nails at various angles. And of course, the actual amount of vinyl in "sinkers" is negligible compared to the materials that go into a house. Finally, there is plenty of rain gear which uses no PVC. So, I've got to think you haven't really looked into this issue very deeply because you have made so many mistakes in what you claim to be items made of PVC which in fact are not. The items where a lot of PVC is used are things like vinyl windows, siding, flooring, wallpaper, PVC plumbing and certain toys and packaging material. All of these have very readily available substitutes. I hope those interested in green building will always be trying to look at the big picture, and not just "what's cheapest off the shelf, or even what is environmentally best in the short term". To say that PVC windows might serve their window function for several decades isn't really looking at the whole picture. Chris Neurath typing on an ABS plastic encased keyboard, with four tiny PVC feet and a PVC coated cable leading to my computer. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 13:33:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22287 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:33:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08739; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:28:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:24:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08213 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:24:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08204 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:24:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (ipb28.st.petersburg4.fl.pub-ip.psi.net [38.30.153.28]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA12969; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:25:26 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <369C9F27.6211549B@earthlink.net> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:27:03 +0000 From: Cindy Shea X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gboggs@wvadventures.net CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco-Industrial Parks References: <369CBA9F.208CCCDC@wvadventures.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5719 Greg, I suggest you start your research at the website of the Work and Environment Initiative at Cornell University http://www.cfe.cornell.edu/wei Ed Cohen-Rosenthal, the director of the program, consults at many of the leading eco-industrial parks across the US and is working with EPA to develop protocols. His e-mail is ec23@cornell.edu I recently wrote an article for World Watch magazine entitled Mimicking Nature by Designing Out Waste that assesses progress at eco-industrial parks around the world.The article should appear sometime this spring. The work of the Zero Emissions Research Initiative at the UN University in Tokyo may also be of interest. http://www.ias.unu.edu/research_prog/unuzeri/moreinfo.html The ZERI founder, Gunter Pauli, just published a book on the subject. I think I've seen it at Amazon.com Closer to home, check out the work going on in Chattanooga. Best, Cindy Pollock Shea Contributing Editor http://sustainable.state.fl.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 14:17:30 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23228 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:17:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05917; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:51:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:47:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05411 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:47:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05407 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:47:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.8] (usr0a50.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.178]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA28815 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:48:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:48:31 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) [207.136.199.8] from usr0a50.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.178] 207.136.199.178 Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:48:31 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: windows and PVC Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5720 In response to Chris Neurath's very informative post about PVC, I put out this query to the list: what about the bromine that is added as a fire retardant to many of the non-PVC plastic resins--not only in computer cases and other consumer products, but also in EPDM and polyolefin roof membranes and other building products. I've begun looking into the environmental concerns related to bromine-based fire retardants and would be interested in other information and opinions. Charlie Cray at Greenpeace told me that bromine is _probably_ going to be just as bad as chlorine, it's just that few have focused on it yet because so much less is used. It is a more potent ozone depleter--if it can get into the stratosphere. Before we replace all our PVC with other resins that require bromine additives, we should look at bromine's impacts. Does anyone know the percentage by weight of bromine in these resins? Is anyone knowledgeable about health and environmental impacts of bromine and the brominated fire retardants used in plastics? -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News At 12:22 PM -0500 1/13/99, CN wrote (in part): > >The plastic cases and major internal parts of my (and virtually all) >calculators, computers, televisions, and radios are not made from PVC. >They are other resins, which do not contain chlorine, and therefore are >much less likely to entail release of dioxins and other organo-chlorines in >their life-cycles. As for automobiles, the industry is starting to move >away from using PVC for interiors because of the very issues >environmentalists have brought up. And car parts made from PVC are a small >fraction of the total weight of a car. Those plastic bumpers, grills, and >body panels found in some cars are not PVC. I try to find garden hoses >made of rubber instead of vinyl (they are usually higher quality too). >Combs and brushes usually are not made of PVC. Most plastic kitchen >utensils are not made of PVC but from other resins. Most rulers and >drafting aids are not made from PVC but from other resins. I have never >used vinyl coated sinkers and I have heard that in the long term they do >not really have significantly better holding power than other nails. And >if I need better holding power I simply drive regular nails at various >angles. And of course, the actual amount of vinyl in "sinkers" is >negligible compared to the materials that go into a house. Finally, there >is plenty of rain gear which uses no PVC. So, I've got to think you >haven't really looked into this issue very deeply because you have made so >many mistakes in what you claim to be items made of PVC which in fact are >not. > >The items where a lot of PVC is used are things like vinyl windows, siding, >flooring, wallpaper, PVC plumbing and certain toys and packaging material. >All of these have very readily available substitutes. > >I hope those interested in green building will always be trying to look at >the big picture, and not just "what's cheapest off the shelf, or even what >is environmentally best in the short term". To say that PVC windows might >serve their window function for several decades isn't really looking at the >whole picture. > >Chris Neurath >typing on an ABS plastic encased keyboard, with four tiny PVC feet and a >PVC coated cable leading to my computer. Environmental Building News 122 Birge Street, Suite 30 Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 14:17:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23234 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04524; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:36:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:32:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04040 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:32:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04027 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:32:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 26447 invoked from network); 13 Jan 1999 17:33:23 -0000 Received: from i48-12-26.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO alee) (216.26.4.218) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 1999 17:33:23 -0000 Message-ID: <369CD88D.64E9@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:33:28 -0800 From: A Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark and Alla Webster CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Lights of America References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5721 I wasn't planning to add to the comments about LOA lights but I had another one burn out last night and that put me over the top. I have had many failures with the CFLs, and others have had the same complaint. Apparently their circular bulbs are quite good, but the CFLs don't last anywhere near the amount of time the company claims. I routinely write the installation date on the bulbs now and if it's within the warrantee period I return them for a replacement. The best unit I've had is from Enertron, which they sent to me for free several years ago. It's an excellent product with little decline in light output and no reliability problems. I think it's mostly for commercial applications and not readily available. It's unfortunate that quality problems with some manufacturers can give these products a bad name when they do offer exceptional energy savings. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 14:17:31 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23230 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:17:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05029; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:41:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:37:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04571 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:36:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04554 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 28120 invoked from network); 13 Jan 1999 17:37:51 -0000 Received: from i48-12-26.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO alee) (216.26.4.218) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 1999 17:37:51 -0000 Message-ID: <369CD9F5.B07@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:37:57 -0800 From: A Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Nehemiah I. Stone" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: windows References: <00d801be3eb1$4894d700$180badcf@nistone> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5722 I don't think I've seen any messages about fiberglass window frames, but recall a few years back that some Canadian companies were producing them. They were energy-efficient, durable, and probably more environmentally benign. I haven't seen anything recently about these windows; maybe someone else can shed some lite on this. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 14:43:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23773 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:43:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13758; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:37:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:33:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13223 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:32:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13213 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:32:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.3] (pm4a3.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.3]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA27148; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:33:22 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) [207.136.199.3] from pm4a3.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.3] 207.136.199.3 Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:33:22 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebnpr@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <369C6798.1EF7@bloomington.in.us> References: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E2CF@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> <369BD9A8.589EA50E@gs.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:32:11 -0400 To: healthy@bloomington.in.us, ledbalon From: Dwight Holmes Subject: Re: GBlist: bathroom venting - outside vent caps Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5723 John or Mike, Could you provide contact information for the Heartland Products, Inc. vent caps? Thank you, Dwight Holmes EBN At 9:30 AM +0000 1/13/99, John Bower wrote: >I've used the Heartland vent caps several times and like them. They seem >to seal well, and they're easy to clean. >-- >John Bower, The Healthy House Institute >http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us >430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 >Phone/fax 812-332-5073 >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ -- Dwight Holmes -- Product Editor -- Environmental Building News dwight@ebuild.com -- (802) 257-7300 -- 122 Birge St. Brattleboro, VT 05301 Visit us on the web at www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 14:47:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23840 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:47:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14311; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:41:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:37:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13743 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:37:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13730 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:36:57 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id HEMUa03537 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:36:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:36:34 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: bathroom venting - outside vent caps Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5724 In a message dated 1/13/99 2:02:37 AM, Rogers, Mike" Wrote: >I've seen a outside bathroom vent cap designed to minimize back flow and doesn't permit air to flow back from the outside. >Has anyone used these? Mike Only works if you are pressurized on that side of the house. If you are depressurized due to wind or being above the neutral plane it is pretty worthless. To make an effective seal you would have to have a motorized damper of some sort. Anyone out there used small ones effectively? or economically? I always hate to have a solution with a ninety-nine year pay back. As for the thread on window replacement we have used Marvin Combo units on many historical projects and left the existing sash alone or cleaned, tweaked, and painted them. Combo units are a wooden frame storm with moveable lower glass panel in one track, stationary screen and upper glass panel stacked in a second channel (think triple track only it's a double track, not unlike a "self storing" storm door). It has the same effect on a house as old style storms yet the window is still operable for venting. Installation is easy and the can be added to or cut down. Sizes are limited and special sizes are expensive. Beyond that, the Pella replacement is one great window since it comes in it's own jambs. As you might expect they are more costly than Marvin or Kolbe tilt pacs but it's a better job when you finish. Once again proving you get what you pay for. Whatever you do, please don't screw up the historical value of a house when there are options. Really assess your needs for operable windows (ventilation, egress etc.) and replace fewer windows to hold down the costs instead of unsuitable vinyl replacements. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Inc. Contractors, Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 15:51:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA25280 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:51:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18311; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:45:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:40:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17863 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:40:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from garnet.sover.net (garnet.sover.net [209.198.87.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17859 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:40:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from sover.net (pm0a22.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.150]) by garnet.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA06833 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:41:30 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) sover.net from pm0a22.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.150] 209.198.93.150 Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:41:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <369D05EB.A8262FF0@sover.net> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:45:31 -0500 From: Cindy Blakeslee X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: PVC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5725 To echo Chris' comments on PVC, I learned alot recently at a conference I casually refer to as "The Evils of PVC." Actually it was a conference entitled "Designing Sustainable Building Materials into the Coming Millennium," sponsored by the Lowell (U. Mass.) Center for Sustainable Production. Despite my fairly high awareness level I didn't know much about PVC, but this conference took care of that. GreenPeace and Consumer's Union were predominent, and the Vinyl Institute was represented. The highlight of the day was when the vinyl guy rather defensively suggested "we" investigate the toxicity of burning southern yellow pine. Although I carry PVC scraps in my used building materials store, just as with pressure treated lumber I'd rather it not exist at all but if it's here I'd rather we use it then let it leach out in unlined landfills or have it burned on-site by contractors. I personally use scrap PVC as candle molds, although I'd be happy to use something else...meantime let's support the efforts of those such as at Lowell who are investigating less harmful substitutions for PVC -- and it appears several are out there. Cindy Blakeslee The Center for Sustainble Building, Vermont (dba Residuum) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 16:00:55 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA25614 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:00:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA19092; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:54:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:50:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18671 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:50:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18667 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:50:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-21.netmeg.net [208.139.83.84]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA18994; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:51:26 -0500 Message-ID: <369D0771.371A6B48@swinter.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:52:02 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dwight Holmes CC: healthy@bloomington.in.us, ledbalon , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: bathroom venting - outside vent caps References: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E2CF@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> <369BD9A8.589EA50E@gs.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5FA7CD58D4141DA71D7A9B6B" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5726 --------------5FA7CD58D4141DA71D7A9B6B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello! Here it is: Heartland Products Company (HEARTLANDPRODUCTS-DOM) Route 2, Box 124 Columbus, NE 68601 US Domain Name: HEARTLANDPRODUCTS.COM heartland@PLATTEVALLEY.NET Sincerely, Debra Lombard green-haus http://home.earthlink.net/~dlombard Check it Out! Dwight Holmes wrote: > John or Mike, > > Could you provide contact information for the Heartland Products, Inc. vent > caps? > > Thank you, > > Dwight Holmes > EBN > > At 9:30 AM +0000 1/13/99, John Bower wrote: > >I've used the Heartland vent caps several times and like them. They seem > >to seal well, and they're easy to clean. > >-- > >John Bower, The Healthy House Institute > >http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us > >430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 > >Phone/fax 812-332-5073 > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > > -- > Dwight Holmes -- Product Editor -- Environmental Building News > dwight@ebuild.com -- (802) 257-7300 -- 122 Birge St. Brattleboro, VT > 05301 > Visit us on the web at www.ebuild.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ --------------5FA7CD58D4141DA71D7A9B6B Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello!

Here it is:
Heartland Products Company (HEARTLANDPRODUCTS-DOM)
Route 2, Box 124
Columbus, NE 68601
US
Domain Name: HEARTLANDPRODUCTS.COM
heartland@PLATTEVALLEY.NET

Sincerely,
Debra Lombard
green-haus
http://home.earthlink.net/~dlombard  Check it Out!

Dwight Holmes wrote:

John or Mike,

Could you provide contact information for the Heartland Products, Inc. vent
caps?

Thank you,

Dwight Holmes
EBN

At 9:30 AM +0000 1/13/99, John Bower wrote:
>I've used the Heartland vent caps several times and like them. They seem
>to seal well, and they're easy to clean.
>--
>John Bower, The Healthy House Institute
>http://www.hhinst.com/    email: healthy@bloomington.in.us
>430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408
>Phone/fax 812-332-5073
>______________________________________________________________________
>This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST <www.crest.org>
>Environmental Building News <www.ebuild.com> and Oikos <www.oikos.com>
>For  instructions send  e-mail to  greenbuilding-request@crest.org.
>______________________________________________________________________

--
Dwight Holmes  -- Product Editor -- Environmental Building News
dwight@ebuild.com  --  (802) 257-7300 -- 122 Birge St.  Brattleboro, VT
05301
Visit us on the web at www.ebuild.com

______________________________________________________________________
This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST <www.crest.org>
Environmental Building News <www.ebuild.com> and Oikos <www.oikos.com>
For  instructions send  e-mail to  greenbuilding-request@crest.org.
______________________________________________________________________

  --------------5FA7CD58D4141DA71D7A9B6B-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 16:53:07 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA27251 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:53:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22328; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:47:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:42:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA21787 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA21675 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:41:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.118] (ka3-118.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.118]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.9.1+DND/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA16310; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:41:49 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:03:26 -0500 To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley), Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Cold Batteries? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id QAA21782 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5727 Sgrìobh David M. Foley: > contributing to the grid. When the grid goes down, you throw the transfer > switch and run your essential circuits from a generator. Sure generators > are noisy and burn fossil fuels, but the amount of time you'll use one is > very small. Without doing an in-depth analysis, I believe that occasional > generator use is more "green" than a battery bank. Others, no doubt, will > have more informed opinions. David - Thanks for the idea. You may well be right from the point of view of emissions. Let me digress for a moment. I hate snowmobiles. Why? Well, picture a beautiful winter day. The snow is newly fallen, lying like a blanket on everything, limning every branch on every tree with a beautiful frosted gilding. And it's *quiet*; the snow hushes the ordinary clanks and bangs of modern life. It gives us a respite, and sense of solitude. It is a time for contemplation, for reflection, for living very much within ourselves. Then, in the neighboring yard, a high, rough, staccato whine splits the air, piercing your windows as though they weren't there and driving you to distraction: rrrAAAArrrrAAAArrrrrrrrrrrAAAArrrAAAAAAAArrrr. You had been thinking sublime thoughts of goodwill and environmental responsibility. The sound vibrates up through your feet, runs up your spine, and terrorizes your lower brain. The next thought which pops unbidden to mind is, "Where's my shotgun?" or "Where can I string up some high-strength fishing line?" I'm sure that snowmobiles are great fun, and I wish their riders all the best. If they ride elsewhere. So I bought some land, well out on a rural road, and the nearest neighbor didn't own a snowmobile. I could kick them out of my backyard. I would have peace and quiet, as soon as I built my house. So there I was this summer, on a still day, just after some rain and wind. The power had died (the first of five times in the last six months). It was very quiet, very like it is after a snowfall. I worked peacefully in my yard, refraining from hammering or otherwise making noise; I moved things from place to place instead. I sat and listened for awhile. Then, from my next-door-neighbor's yard, I heard a noise: chugchugchugchugchugchugchugchugchugchugchugchugchugchugchugchug. He had turned his generator on. Since then, the power has gone out many times, and each time his generator starts up, marring what otherwise would be a beautiful time, and perhaps even a spiritual experience. So I don't intend to buy a generator, because they pollute exactly when they shouldn't. Christ Neurath has suggested that perhaps I could get by with a very small battery bank. If so, then perhaps I can fit it into the house. Nadav Malin has asked me to question whether I need power at all when the grid is down. This is an excellent point; my only misgivings are that power is required to vent the composting toilet, and I'd rather it stayed vented. Also, I use power for several things which are time-dependent. I might be able to make do with direct solar when the sun is up and no power when it's down; in that case perhaps I can install a big switch and disconnect from the grid physically when power goes down, so as not to electrocute linemen. Or perhaps I'll wait until flywheel or compact fuel cell technology comes into its own. Or, I suppose that I could build a really, really soundproof generator house. Thanks for the ideas, all. It's been helpful and stimulating. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 17:29:38 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA27982 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:29:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25897; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:24:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:18:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24746 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:18:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24734 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:18:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.3.220.167]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.08) id 5952200 ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:22:51 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990113171307.006a7f58@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:13:07 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Community Environmental Indicators Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5728 This may be somewhat off topic but I have been asked to participate in a local process to develop a set of community indicators. The purpose is to develop measurable indicators that would be part of a quality of life index for our county. I am to be the environmental representative. The Healthy York County Coalition has hired Tyler Norris Associates from Colorado to serve as a consultant to oversee the project. The model we have been given is a study done for Pasadena, CA in 1992. Their quality of life index includes indicators in the areas of: Alcohol, Tobacco & Other Drugs Arts & Culture Community Safety Economy & Employment Education Environment Health Housing Recreation & Open Spaces Transportation There is considerable overlap as many other areas have environmental impacts. The indicators in the environment area are: Number of days exceeding EPA standards for air quality Per capita water use Per capita gas & electricity use Per capita waste production Percentage of waste diverted from landfills Number of trees Number of environmental education efforts I am looking for suggestions on additional indicators that are measurable. Can anyone point me in the direction of similar studies/reports/research/web sites? Anyone aware of other communities that have undertaken similar initiatives? Appreciate any help. ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 17:48:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA28346 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:48:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA27560; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:43:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:39:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA26996 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:39:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901132239.RAA26996@solstice.crest.org> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:11:33 +1300 From: "Dave P." To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: windows and PVC Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5729 Hi Alex The following websites describe the toxicity of brominated dibenzofurans which are some of the chemicals produced when bromine based fire retardants are exposed to high temperatures. According to the EPA, these compounds are members of the family of chemicals commonly referred to as dioxin andÝ cause similar toxic effects. Dioxins have measured half-lives in adults of approximately 12 years. The half-life increases with increasing body fat and varies inversely with age, placing children at particular risk. http://www.psr.org/diox2.htm http://psrus.org/lockwood.htm http://www.psrus.org/diox4.htm http://www.psrus.org/diox7.htm Ý Construction grade EPS is one building material using bromine based fire retardants. Styropor F (fire rated EPS manufactured by BASF) uses less than 1% by weight of a brominated cycloalkane, hexabromocyclododecane (HBCD) as a fire retardant. Fire tests conducted by BASF confirmed the production of traces of brominated dibenzofurans and hydrogen bromide.. One interesting fact regarding burning Styropor F is that the fumes are considered less harmful than burning wood. eg significantly lower levels of carbon monoxide, etc. Perhaps there has to be a tradeoff sometimes between saving lives duringÝ a fire against the risk of accumulating some potentially harmful residues after the event. Ý Ý Dave P. Ý Alex Wilson wrote: > In response to Chris Neurath's very informative post about PVC, I put out > this query to the list: what about the bromine that is added as a fire > retardant to many of the non-PVC plastic resins--not only in computer cases > and other consumer products, but also in EPDM and polyolefin roof membranes > and other building products. I've begun looking into the environmental > concerns related to bromine-based fire retardants and would be interested > in other information and opinions. Charlie Cray at Greenpeace told me that > bromine is _probably_ going to be just as bad as chlorine, it's just that > few have focused on it yet because so much less is used. It is a more > potent ozone depleter--if it can get into the stratosphere. Before we > replace all our PVC with other resins that require bromine additives, we > should look at bromine's impacts. Does anyone know the percentage by weight > of bromine in these resins? Is anyone knowledgeable about health and > environmental impacts of bromine and the brominated fire retardants used in > plastics? > > -Alex Wilson, Editor > Environmental Building News > Ý Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 17:49:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA28352 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:49:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA27463; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:42:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:38:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA26939 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:38:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA26935 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:38:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-21.netmeg.net [208.139.83.84]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA05847; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:39:32 -0500 Message-ID: <369D20C7.D5749864@swinter.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:40:07 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marcus Sheffer CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Community Environmental Indicators References: <3.0.3.32.19990113171307.006a7f58@cyberia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5730 Marcus: I am assuming that: Per capita waste production will be broken down by type as with Percentage of waste diverted from landfills Number of trees - I would be intereted to know if # trees clearcut and # of trees planted by type would be beneficial. Debra Lombard dlombard@earthlink.net Marcus Sheffer wrote: > This may be somewhat off topic but I have been asked to participate in a > local process to develop a set of community indicators. The purpose is to > develop measurable indicators that would be part of a quality of life index > for our county. I am to be the environmental representative. The Healthy > York County Coalition has hired Tyler Norris Associates from Colorado to > serve as a consultant to oversee the project. The model we have been given > is a study done for Pasadena, CA in 1992. Their quality of life index > includes indicators in the areas of: > Alcohol, Tobacco & Other Drugs > Arts & Culture > Community Safety > Economy & Employment > Education > Environment > Health > Housing > Recreation & Open Spaces > Transportation > There is considerable overlap as many other areas have environmental > impacts. The indicators in the environment area are: > Number of days exceeding EPA standards for air quality > Per capita water use > Per capita gas & electricity use > Per capita waste production > Percentage of waste diverted from landfills > Number of trees > Number of environmental education efforts > I am looking for suggestions on additional indicators that are measurable. > Can anyone point me in the direction of similar > studies/reports/research/web sites? Anyone aware of other communities that > have undertaken similar initiatives? Appreciate any help. > > ===================================================================== > Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services > Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 > 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 > Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com > ===================================================================== > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 18:08:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA28757 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:08:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA29050; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:03:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:59:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA28301 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:58:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlas.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [209.250.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28297 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:58:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from timex.pathcom.com (ts43l33.pathcom.com [209.250.145.186]) by atlas.pathcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA28942; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:02:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901132302.SAA28942@atlas.pathcom.com> From: timex@pathcom.com To: Cindy Blakeslee , "greenbuilding" Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:01:45 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: PVC Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com In-reply-to: <369D05EB.A8262FF0@sover.net> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5731 Can you give us more info on this, please? marilyn > investigating less harmful substitutions for PVC -- and it appears > several are out there. > Cybercrone http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Don't get even. . . get odd! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 18:41:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA29272 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:41:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA01195; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:36:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:32:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA00859 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:32:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.teleport.com (mail1.teleport.com [192.108.254.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00855 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:32:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 21599 invoked from network); 13 Jan 1999 23:33:05 -0000 Received: from i48-06-42.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO alee) (216.26.3.106) by mail1.teleport.com with SMTP; 13 Jan 1999 23:33:05 -0000 Message-ID: <369D2D29.3754@teleport.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:32:57 -0800 From: A Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marcus Sheffer CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Community Environmental Indicators References: <3.0.3.32.19990113171307.006a7f58@cyberia.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5732 Portland OR has developed sustainable city principles that guide city operations, has developed and assessed bureau performance in terms of environmental indicators, has produced sustainability indicators, and successfully included selected environmental indicators into the city/county benchmarks. You can get more information by contacting Matt Emlen at the Portland Energy Office (503-823-7224 or mattemlen@ci.portland.or.us. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 19:00:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA29657 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:00:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02383; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:55:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:51:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA01917 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:50:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA01913 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:50:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.magma.ca (mail2.magma.ca [206.191.0.218]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA08308; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:51:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (port-2-114.magma.ca [206.191.63.114]) by mail2.magma.ca (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA08090; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:51:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901132351.SAA08090@mail2.magma.ca> X-Sender: stephen@mail.magma.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:48:56 -0500 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , Dan and Pam From: Stephen Thwaites Subject: Re: GBlist: Daptex Cc: greenbuilding In-Reply-To: References: <369C9B5F.2DA3@cyberzone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5733 At 05:59 AM 1/13/99 -0700, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > >We have used it and like it for the following reasons: >1) it is latex >2) the can be used to the end (not typical) >3) does not expand out of control (expansion is smaller than usual) >4) sets soft, not hard (will not crack window frames) >5) easy clean-up with water >6) others that I do not know Although Jorg doesn't explictly say it, people often assume latex = low offgassing Recently a person w/ multiple chemical sensitivities bought some fibreglass windows f/ us. They cam equip'd w/ alist of acceptable installationm mat'ls f/ a CMHC guru. The list included latex expand'g foam. Ever the cynic i had the client do a double blind sniff test. Guess what? The latex foam flunked and the urethane foam passed. Always always question authority. Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ottawa Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 19:00:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA29662 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02379; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:55:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:51:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA01905 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:50:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA01896 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:50:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.magma.ca (mail2.magma.ca [206.191.0.218]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA08294; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:51:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (port-2-114.magma.ca [206.191.63.114]) by mail2.magma.ca (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA08068; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:51:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901132351.SAA08068@mail2.magma.ca> X-Sender: stephen@mail.magma.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:32:43 -0500 To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Stephen Thwaites Subject: Re: GBlist: Thermotech Windows Website In-Reply-To: <199901131702.MAA17436@freenet3.carleton.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5734 At 12:02 PM 1/13/99 -0500, Robert W. Tom wrote: >Hello GB-listpersons; > >I appreciate Stephen Thwaites' reserve in not exploiting this List >to plug his firm's website and product. > >However, I am not as sensible as he is. Apparently not. Thanks for the plug. Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ottawa Canada home of the longest skating rink in the world ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 19:51:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA00637 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:51:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05025; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:46:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:42:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA04518 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:42:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA04512 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from reg-53-0129.direct.ca ([216.66.142.29] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #18) id 100asd-0006lf-00 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:43:24 -0800 Message-ID: <369D3CE1.C1C1D7D@direct.ca> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:40:01 -0800 From: Richard Kadulski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-SYMPA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Vinyl-framed Windows References: <199901122041.PAA00653@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5735 A few comments on vinyl windows. My understanding is that in Germany, (if not other parts of Europe) manufacturers must now have a program to take back vinyl frames at the end of their useful life. As someone else pointed out, a well designed window will last much longer than 10 or 20 years, and vinyl has been used in Europe much longer than in North America for this application. Properly designed frames will allow for window replacement without any destructive work. I have some high performance vinyl windows in my own home. I had to replace a glazing unit (the supplier had manufacturing problems with a run of units a four years ago - mine happened to have been made at that time). At that time I discovered that the design of this frame unit is quite ingenious in that it allows replacement from the inside, and although it is an airtight widow, it does not rely on caulking materials. The frame is solid, and yes the frame is a bit wider than some wood frames may be, but if glass area is critical, then you select window sizes accordingly. Not to raise hackles, but for those who are concerned about any use vinyl, period, then of course vinyl clad windows are out too. However, I'd like to see the impact analysis of the refinishing and maintenance that wood windows require over their life span (compared against the alternatives, which would include vinyl and fiberglass). As with so many other things, it's not easy. There is no simple answer - as much we would like to find it! > Bruce Sullivan wrote: > > > Charlotte > > > > Thanks for your comments. Here are a couple of thoughts. > > > > >EBN says go > > >for energy efficiency over manufacturing pollution so don't rule PVC out on > > >that regard. But rather lack of dependability. > > > > I lived with vinyl-framed windows in a new house for more than six years. > > We saw no indication of the durability problems you or John Salmen > > mentioned. In fact, vinyl-frames are the mainstream choice for windows in > > new construction and remodeling around here. Aluminum frames have almost > > disappeared from the market. I actually feel okay about the durability > > issue. However, I don't suppose that six years is long enough for > > durability problems to manifest. > > > > > > > >Do the frames really need to be replaced completely? Sash replacement kits > > >cost almost as much as a window, but can be installed by anyone saving a > > >fortune on labor. > > > > Sorry, I didn't mention that these are indeed sash replacements. > > > > My first idea was to keep the original wood sashes and replace the > > glazing with sealed insulated units. I know that this can be done, but I > > can't find anyone in Oregon that does it. Any of you Northwesterners know > > of a contractor? > > > -- Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver, BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax 604-689-11841 Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design Editor Solplan Review: the independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 19:53:07 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA00642 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:53:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05043; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:47:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:43:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA04574 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:43:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA04510 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:42:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from reg-53-0129.direct.ca ([216.66.142.29] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #18) id 100asb-0006lO-00 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:43:21 -0800 Message-ID: <369D3881.B2079B83@direct.ca> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:21:21 -0800 From: Richard Kadulski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-SYMPA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: RE: Floor slabs and vapor barriers References: <199901122041.PAA00653@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5736 > From: John Straube > > On Monday, January 11, 1999 12:14 PM, David F. Lambertson > [SMTP:dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu] wrote: > > Richard, What do the Swedes commonly use for insulation? And, from > your > > statement above, are you suggesting that the thicker insulation also is a > > moisture/vapor barrier? Sacie Lambertson > As far as I know, the Swedes use both high-density mineral fiber and > cellular plastic insulation under their slabs. As I discussed a few days > ago, you dont need an additional vapour barrier. Most insulations like > mineral fibre and foam plastic are capillary inactive and so act as a > "moisture barrer" (whatever people mean by that imprecise term). Finally, > the use of vapour permeable insulation (like mineral wool) actually dries > the slab by placing the vapour pressure of the soil at a lower value than > the concrete slab (this works best in cold climates though). > The Swedes use a lot of EPS - expanded polystyrene foam (or beadboard). Except for the least dense material, the amount of moisture it absorbs is minimal, so water is kept out, and it keeps the heat in. Don't forget that EPS is a commonly used floatation material, for boats and floating docks - items you would not want to see absorb water!. Don't forget that if insulation absorbs water (gets wet throughout) , it no longer works as an insulator. I don't believe the high density mineral fiber insulation is designed for HORIZONTAL under slab applications. It probably won't take the structural loads, and it does absorb moisture, so ground water would be caught up in it. The rigid fiber is great for VERTICAL applications, where the fiber alignment allows water to drain in the plane of the surface. In these boards only the surface layer (1/4" or so) gets wet. The balance remains dry, and provides insulation properties. -- Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver, BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax 604-689-11841 Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design Editor Solplan Review: the independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 20:48:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA03096 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:48:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA07738; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:43:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:39:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA07380 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:39:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA07376 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:39:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 15279 invoked by alias); 14 Jan 1999 01:40:41 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 15255 invoked by uid 0); 14 Jan 1999 01:40:40 -0000 Received: from hdialup197.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (207.225.106.197) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 14 Jan 1999 01:40:40 -0000 Message-ID: <006501be3f5e$adc38420$c56ae1cf@h5n5y7> From: "PETER F. ALSPACH" To: "Green building list" Subject: Re: GBlist: Cold Batteries? Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:39:07 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5737 One option you might want to look into is micro-turbines. I don't know much about them myself, though they run on gas (natural I presume), are very small and MIGHT make less noise than a regular generator. I'm taking a renewables tech. class now and they were just briefly mentioned. Hopefully more info will come my way soon. If anyone out there knows about them, I'd love to hear the good, bad and ugly details. Pete Alspach ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 20:57:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA03188 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA08334; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:52:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:47:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA07963 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:47:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA07951 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:47:40 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id VBBUa19751 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:42:03 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <1e911144.369d4b6b@aol.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:42:03 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Windows: What really matters Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5738 Friends, The discussion of frame materials for windows reminds me of the story of the blind men describing an elephant in completely different ways based on the different parts that they touch. None of them gets the big picture. My sense is that this is often true of how people select windows as well: on frame material, specialty glazing or architectural design, without taking into account the whole picture on this critical component of buildings. Operating on the technological cutting edge of the sunroom and window businesses for several years, gave me an opportunity to explore window technology extensively. It taught me to stay back a bit from that edge and let others play guinea pig for new manufacturers. I decided that what really matters is not any of the separate components alone, but the entire window system, along with the manufacturing, distribution and service system that stands behind it. The integrated system of design, engineering, attention to detail, manufacturing quality, glazing technology, warranty, factory service and installation are far more critical to what really affects people's lives, than any individual material component. I learned the hard way from hundreds of failed insulated glass units, from windows that had amazing advanced engineering in themselves yet ridiculously stupid interfaces to the rest of the wall system, from super high tech windows with screens that never worked, from unfixable leaks, from manufacturers going bankrupt or simply ignoring their warranty and service responsibilities, from terrible delivery schedules that screwed up jobs for months on end, from parts that were impossible to get, and mostly from many unhappy customers who would have preferred that the windows were a bit less cutting edge and a lot more durable and user friendly. So while the ideal choice of components would be great, it no longer is my top priority in choosing windows. I haven't found a really innovative sustainable window manufacturer that also meets all the other priorities I now find necessary for that warm fuzzy feeling about making the right window choice. I've gone back to the big boys with strong distribution and service organizations: Marvin, Pella and Andersen. Less than perfect windows, but pretty darn good. When the new guys come calling, I am a lot more skeptical of the sales pitch. I encourage them to get my favorite millwork distributor to handle their product, take care of service and stock parts. Now they've got to prove their claims, especially for service, before I'll buy. I've learned to compromise my environmental priorities slightly, before I'll compromise my customer's satisfaction and the long term quality of the project. Just another conservative old poop I guess. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 21:31:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA04521 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:31:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA10073; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:26:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:21:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA09579 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:21:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09575 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:21:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from my_machine.UIC.EDU (SLIP12B-07.DIALIN.UIC.EDU [128.248.141.187]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA14001; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:11:36 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990113201107.00699b94@tigger.cc.uic.edu> X-Sender: miversen@tigger.cc.uic.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:11:07 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Michael Iversen Subject: GBlist: Community Environmental Indicators Cc: msheffer@cyberia.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990113171307.006a7f58@cyberia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5739 At 05:13 PM 1/13/99 -0500, Marcus Sheffer wrote: >I have been asked to participate in a local process to develop a set of community indicators. The purpose is to develop measurable indicators that would be part of a quality of life index for our county. ... I am looking for suggestions on additional indicators that are measurable. Can anyone point me in the direction of similar studies/reports/research/web sites? =20 Marcus ... perhaps the following websites may be of interest to your research. The descriptions are excerpted from their websites. Compendium of Sustainable Development / Indicator Initiatives and Publications: The Compendium provides a comprehensive and up-to-date information base of indicator initiatives being carried out at the international, national and provincial/territorial/state levels in the context of sustainable development. Some projects at the regional/local and community levels are included. The compendium also contains an annotated bibliography of indicator-related literature. =20 < Redefining Progress / Community Indicators Project: Despite the growing number of indicators projects, there has been very little communication among them. In response, Redefining Progress's Community Indicators Project links existing and emerging projects and facilitates the development of community indicators initiatives nationwide through a series of tools, resources, and technical support, including: an e-mail-based discussion group, a database directory including basic information on over 200 community indicators projects around the United States, and the Community Indicators Handbook.=20 <Criterion Planners & Engineers / Software for Community Indicators: How can communities cope with growth and still maintain their quality of life? Are incremental development decisions making conditions more or less sustainable? How can services be most effectively focused in redevelopment areas? INDEX=AE is customizable software created by Criterion to help answer these and related livability questions. Stakeholders can perform spatial accounting with local indicators to gauge not only what the positives and negatives are, but also where they are. INDEX=AE can be applied to a single neighborhood or an entire region with a scope of measurements that includes land-use, housing, employment, transportation, infrastructure, and the natural environment. Its multi-media functions can help engage citizens, translating abstract objectives into backyard tactics that can be visualized. To learn more about INDEX=AE, you may download a demo or contact Criterion for a demo disk. Note: Criterion's web site also provides an excellent and comprehensive bibliography on community indicators. < Urban Quality Indicators: Newsletter's purpose is to bring together the various research efforts on urban quality of life, with the emphasis on quantitative. Includes conceptualization of urban quality, its measurement, inventory procedures, setting targets and actual city ratings and rankings. Published quarterly by Urban Quality Communications. Telephone: 313.996.8610. There are many more information resources on the subject of community indicators, but these should provide a good start. Good luck with your project. Michael Iversen, AIA Adjunct Assistant Professor University of Illinois at Chicago School of Architecture (m/c 030) 3100 Art and Architecture Building, Room 3100 845 West Harrison Street Chicago, IL 60607-7024 Tel: 773.244.9227 Fax: 773.871.0121 E-mail: MIversen@uic.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 22:26:30 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA05106 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:26:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12977; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:17:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA12444 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:17:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from send103.yahoomail.com (send103.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12438 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:17:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990114032012.22820.rocketmail@send103.yahoomail.com> Received: from [207.172.83.164] by send103.yahoomail.com; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:20:12 PST Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 19:20:12 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Anderson Subject: GBlist: Re: Lights of America To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5740 GB Listers, Just one more experience to add about LoA CFL's. Tried some several years ago, and they all failed within weeks, although I have had good experience with their circular fluorescents. Also, pretty good article in the January 99 issue of Consumer Reports about CFLs. Their experience with the LoA bulbs was the same as those commenting here, in fact, CR gave them a "Not Recommended" rating. Hard to see how a company can manufacture such an unreliable product for so long. I have had excellent service from the GE CFLs, although their light rating is not up to their initial claims (at least for the older bulbs), and also fades a bit with time. But I've been using a number of them for many years now and they're still going strong. I've had similar experience with the Philips products. Gary Anderson _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 22:44:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA05312 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:44:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA13802; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:39:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:35:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA13364 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:35:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from panther.golden.net (root@panther.golden.net [199.166.210.120]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13360 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:35:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-07-79.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.129.79]) by panther.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA17070; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:35:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:39:24 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE3F45.91EA5760.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Dave P.'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: windows and PVC Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:29:58 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5741 On Wednesday, January 13, 1999 3:12 PM, Dave P. [SMTP:dp@ihug.co.nz] wrote: Thanks for the very useful information Dave! I would guess that plastics, like HDPE and nylon with fire retardents release far fewer dioxins than PVC itself in production and disposal (like fires) -- is there any evidence of this or are all fire retardent plastic just as bad? I have to complain about this statement : > dibenzofurans and hydrogen bromide.. One interesting fact regarding > burning Styropor F is that the fumes are considered less harmful > than burning wood. eg significantly lower levels of carbon monoxide, > etc. I have heard this over and over by the manufactuers of EPS foam products. However, I have often invited them and their families over to my place for a BBQ-- I will eat the steak off by wood/charcoal BBQ, and their families will eat the meat from the same mass of burning EPS. Guess what, no a single one has taken me up on my offer. I read this several years ago, then went out and burned some EPS to confirm my suspicions. The black smoke that comes off makes you choke and gag, and I am one of the least chemically sensitive people I know. This must be a case of science measuring something quite useless with great accuracy. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 22:45:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA05322 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:45:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA13977; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:40:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:36:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA13469 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13461 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:36:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.106] (rkd044.acadia.net [208.244.128.68]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA10953 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:37:27 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:36:14 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco-Industrial Parks Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5742 Greg: Call City Hall in Burlington, Vermont, and ask for information about the "Intervale", which is an environmentally-oriented, economic-development section of the city. Currently has composting facilities, community gardens, gardener-supply business, several other "green" businesses, etc. Also contact Peter Calthorpe in San Francisco and ask to speak with my friend Matt Taecker, who works with Calthorpe on reclaiming "brownfield" sites - old industrial sites, often polluted - in cities. You may get some help there. Don't have Calthorpe's number offhand; ask for "Calthorpe Associates" in the San Francisco area code. Good luck. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 23:00:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA05483 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:00:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA14759; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:55:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:51:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA14462 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:51:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA14458 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:51:12 -0500 (EST) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id NGKQa27768; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:51:41 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <3f5d0e12.369d69cd@aol.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:51:41 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: MIversen@uic.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Community Environmental Indicators Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5743 Michael - Thanks for sharing the links with all of us. Could you please double check the URL for "Compendium of Sustainable Development"? I received an error message when I tried to access. Regards, Cathy Flanders IAQ List Manager & Moderator Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq or subscribe by sending a blank message to: iaq-subscribe@onelist.com IAQ Listserve (to search archives) http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/iaq IAQ Job Line Bulletin Board http://disc.server.com/Indices/39418.html Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://www.fiscorp.net/iaq/ In a message dated 99-01-13 21:26:15 EST, you write: << Compendium of Sustainable Development / Indicator Initiatives and Publications: The Compendium provides a comprehensive and up-to-date information base of indicator initiatives being carried out at the international, national and provincial/territorial/state levels in the context of sustainable development. Some projects at the regional/local and community levels are included. The compendium also contains an annotated bibliography of indicator-related literature. < >> ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 23:57:22 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA06216 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:57:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA16878; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:51:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:45:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA16355 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:45:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA16351 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:45:19 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id TOFWa06037 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:44:28 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:44:28 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Zoned "constant-volume" systems Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5744 I am interested to know if there are any studies of energy usage in zoned "constant-volume" systems, which I believe go by trade names such as VVT (Carrier), Trol-Temp (Honeywell), etc. I believe Trane, Lennox, and other companies also offer versions. These are the systems which have a thermostat and supply damper for each zone, and a large bypass damper to avoid air noise when just a few zones are needing heating or cooling. Thanks in advance. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 108 South Albany Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX imshapiro@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 13 23:57:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA06225 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:57:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA16984; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:52:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:47:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA16516 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:47:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA16511 for ; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:47:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from my_machine.UIC.EDU (SLIP12B-07.DIALIN.UIC.EDU [128.248.141.187]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA21537; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:36:35 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990113223606.006a494c@tigger.cc.uic.edu> X-Sender: miversen@tigger.cc.uic.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:36:06 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Michael Iversen Subject: Re: GBlist: Community Environmental Indicators Cc: Rkfabf@aol.com In-Reply-To: <3f5d0e12.369d69cd@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5745 At 10:51 PM 1/13/99 EST, Cathy Flanders wrote: >Michael - >Thanks for sharing the links with all of us. >Could you please double check the URL for "Compendium of Sustainable >Development"? I received an error message when I tried to access. Thank you Cathy for your feedback. The correct URL for the "Compendium of Sustainable Development / Indicator Initiatives and Publications" website is I apologize for any inconvenience. Michael Iversen, AIA Adjunct Assistant Professor University of Illinois at Chicago School of Architecture (m/c 030) 3100 Art and Architecture Building, Room 3100 845 West Harrison Street Chicago, IL 60607-7024 Tel: 773.244.9227 Fax: 773.871.0121 E-mail: MIversen@uic.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 00:45:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA06782 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:45:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA18599; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:40:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:35:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA18287 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:34:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu (root@post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu [136.142.185.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA18283 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:34:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.pitt.edu (pgh2116.icubed.com [208.157.22.116]) by post-ofc04.srv.cis.pitt.edu with ESMTP (8.8.8/8.8.8/cispo-7.2.2.2) ID ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:35:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <369D822B.D5BFB71F@pop.pitt.edu> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:35:45 -0500 From: AO X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Thwaites , greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Daptex References: <369C9B5F.2DA3@cyberzone.net> <199901132351.SAA08090@mail2.magma.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5746 I agree it's always worthwhile to question "facts", opinion, and conclusions, etc., regardless of the source of information. I'm amazed how often I've seen that it's turned out to be tangibly worthwhile to watch out, and take everything with a grain of salt! Btw, watch out for statistics, too. They can be VERY misleading. What does CMHC stand for? As for "off-gassing", is the sniff test a good test? I suppose, if you smell something, it IS off-gassing; if you don't smell something, it MIGHT be off-gassing? Does anyone know whether there's some new-fangled, sophisticated devise/s that measures these things substances in the air in ppm or something? Would the test result be on the record somewhere, so we don't have to rely on a sniff test to make these important choices? AO Stephen Thwaites wrote: > Although Jorg doesn't explictly say it, people often assume latex = low > offgassing > > Recently a person w/ multiple chemical sensitivities bought some fibreglass > windows f/ us. They cam equip'd w/ alist of acceptable installationm > mat'ls f/ a CMHC guru. The list included latex expand'g foam. Ever the > cynic i had the client do a double blind sniff test. > > Guess what? The latex foam flunked and the urethane foam passed. > > Always always question authority. > > Stephen Thwaites > Thermotech Windows > Ottawa Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 00:52:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA06931 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:52:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA18990; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:47:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:43:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA18703 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:43:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from .www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA18697 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:43:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip26.ivnet.net [206.101.73.186]) by .www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA19581; Wed, 13 Jan 1999 21:32:18 -0800 Message-ID: <369A910C.BAB23D08@ivnet.net> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 16:02:20 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Sullivan CC: Green Building Subject: Re: GBlist: Vinyl-framed Windows References: <1296027210-2780852@irisinc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5747 If it was my choice, I would install the vinyls ASAP. It will increase your comfort level, and decrease your heating bills, saving you more money. Seems better than waiting. Get the best U-values you can find. A good warranty on the sealed glazing is a goodness, too. Bruce Donelson a Better Builder Takilma Oregon Bruce Sullivan wrote: > > Here's my dilemma. The 100-year old farmhouse that we moved into last > summer is about to be weatherized (and not a moment too soon, brrr). In > addition to wall and floor insulation, we hope to replace the single pane > windows. > > After reading Greenpeace material and the article in EBN a while back > about the toxic side effects of vinyl manufacturing, I'm concerned about > supporting this industry. > > Naturally, the cost of vinyl is far lower than wood-framed windows. We > have these bids: > > vinyl (installed) $2500 > Norco wood with aluminum cladding (not installed) $4000 > Marvin primed wood (not installed) $6100 > > With this kind of cost difference, there's a distinct possibility that > it's vinyl or nothing -- at least for several years. Even if we decide on > the wood, we have to install 24 windows, which would take several months > of weekend warrior time. > > Are there are other factors that might favor vinyl? They last a long > time. They save lots of energy. They don't require painting every few > years. By considering vinyl, am I just trying to save money? Would it be > better to wait several years, to save up the extra money for wood. > > Thanks for sharing your opinions with me. > > Bruce S > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com > Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 > Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com > -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 04:11:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA10039 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:11:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA26379; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:01:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA25812 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:01:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA25786 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:01:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.13] (newhenyusr0-a105.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.105]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA18695; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 03:02:13 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <369CF49C.B62BA22E@dreamscape.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:05:15 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: GBlist: Re: LDPE, PVC, dioxin, phthalates,lead, cadmium, bromine Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5748 >Chris & Alex, > >Do you have any knowledge on the safety of Low Density PolyEthylenes? >We just called The First Years Inc., about a sippy cup my grandson was >given, to make sure it wasn't PVC and were told that it is mabe of LPDE. >That was good news until I realised I didn't know whether LDPE was any >better the PVC. > >Chuck Hinckley Chuck, Well, I was recently at a conference, at which Alex Wilson was present, which dealt specifically with PVC in building materials, and alternatives to their use. I talked to the lead Greenpeace campaigner (Charlie Cray) on this very question and he believes that LDPE normally has none of the immediate health dangers of PVC and has less of the life-cycle problems. The problem with PVC in toys or other child items is that to make it flexible chemicals called platicizers need to be added (usually phthalates), and these have recently been implicated as potentially toxic. Also, a shocking number of children's PVC toys have lead and cadmium added as PVC stabilizers. PVC is apparently unique among plastics in requiring stabilizers of which lead and cadmium are the cheapest and therefore still used frequently ... even in toys that children may handle or put in their mouths. I've never heard of such toxic chemicals being added to LDPE in children's items. However, I have read a Consumer Reports study that found many inks used to print bread bags (which are made of LDPE) and presumably many other LDPE items, had very high levels of lead in them. The bread makers claimed that since it was not in direct contact with the bread it was OK. But what about the ink that rubs off on your hands or if you unknowingly turn the bag inside-out to reuse it and put some other food in it??? But, I doubt they would use lead or cadmium based inks on a sippy cup. But then again, maybe you should also ask the manufacturers. It's good for them to get these questions so that they realize people really are concerned about these things. I just read Alex Wilson's comment about LDPE being "about as clean a polymer as you can get". Well, maybe, but it certainly still has some environmental negatives. When it is burned, it can give off noxious combustion products (despite what the plastics engineer at the conference claimed). If you don't believe me then just take a match to a baggie and take a wiff. I have recently been working trying to outlaw backyard burn barrels in my rural area. Even if you could get people to keep PVC out of their burn barrels (an impossibility unless PVC is banned), they would still have a lot of LDPE being burned and I have tracked down one study that shows a lot of nasties are given off by LDPE when it burns. I suppose if you have a laboratory furnace under perfect conditions you could burn it and get just CO2 and H2O as products ... but that is never going to happen in real life. So, it's ultimate disposal is not without impact. Furthermore, in the production of LDPE, many toxic chemicals are employed, which obviously in the real world may find their way into people's air, water, or food. I tend to agree with Greenpeace that overall, a life-cycle comparison of the two plastics would show LDPE is better than PVC. Several studies have been done of exactly this type of comparison, but based on disposable packaging materials, not on longer term "durable" goods. Those studies always find PVC to have worse overall environmental impacts than LDPE. By the way, on a somewhat unrelated topic, while I am responding to Alex, we had an earlier discussion about lead solder for plumbing. I've looked in several hardware stores and at Home Depot. Lead solder is still very readily available at all of the places I've checked, including acid core and no-flux, both of which are types usable for plumbing. Some of the packages clearly warned that it was illegal to use such solder in potable plumbing, but there were also packages which had no mention of this. And of course, the lead solder is cheaper (and easier to use) than most of the non-lead solders. So, how many disreputable professional plumbers, and how many unwitting do-it-yourselfers are still using lead solder? It would be easy enough to do a study of plumbing jobs performed since lead was banned and get a rough idea ... but I wonder whether the EPA has the guts to do such a study. Hmm, and now I read Alex's question about bromine in plastics. Yes, brominated dioxins are a little studied, but potentially just as toxic chemical as chlorinated dioxins. I think bromine compounds are not likely to be added to toys but they certainly could be added to building materials and electronics parts, as fire-prevention is a big deal with these materials. And, I do remember that fire-retardant compounds were once added to children's pajamas, until they were found to be a health hazard. So, this is an area where you can't assume anything. It's only a rough first approximation, but since PVC is often more than 50% chlorine by weight, while bromine fire additives in one case were said to be about 1% by weight ... one might surmise that the fire-retarded plastics are less of an environmental problem than PVC. Sorry I don't really have the answers to these questions. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 04:11:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA10048 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:11:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA26377; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:01:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA25806 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:01:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA25788 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:01:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.13] (newhenyusr0-a105.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.105]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA18748 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 03:02:22 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:38:37 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: GBlist: Daptex foam Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5749 I've used Daptex and I like it for the same reasons others have stated: easy application, easy clean up, much less toxic, won't damage things by overexpanding. However, it does not dry nearly as fast and if you use it in an unheated or damp space it might never dry. It has virtually no strength compared to the polyurethane or polyisocyanurate foams. As for environmental impact, my guess is that it is better than the other foams. However, Stephen Thwaites told me an interesting story about a customer who was chemically sensitive. They sent her blind samples of both types of dried foam, and she immediately rejected the latex foam as having an objectionable chemical odor, whereas the other was ok. I have some chemical sensitivities so I went and did my own sniff tests of both types of dried foam and sure enough, I could detect a slight hydrocarbon-y smell from the Daptex even after weeks of drying, whereas the other stuff becomes odorless (to me) within hours of application. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 04:11:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA10053 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:11:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA26388; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:06:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:01:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA25797 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:01:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA25790 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:01:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.13] (newhenyusr0-a105.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.105]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA18757 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 03:02:24 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 03:27:35 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: GBlist: Thermotech Windows Website Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5750 Rob Tom mentioned Thermotech Windows. The recent addition to my house in northern New York State is outfitted with fiberglass framed windows from Thermotech. I got the "ultimate" glazing option of three panes, with argon filling, low-e coatings on two surfaces and the silicone-foam spacers. As I type it is -15 F outside and breezy. The inside surfaces of the glass are only slightly cool to the touch and there is only a tiny amount of condensation (about 1/2") along the bottom of the glass. The indoor humidity is between 30 and 40%. And that slight amount of condensation will only contact fiberglass, so there is very little chance it will cause mold to grow and I don't need preservatives as in wood frame to slow down mold growth. Anyone looking for a high quality window should definitely look into Thermotech's fiberglass line. I also find them to be aesthetically very nice. And, as Rob Tom said, Thermotech's web site has lots of good information and Stephen Thwaites really knows windows. In a related vein, in a recent post Stephen mentioned a customer who he worked with to make end-user framed fixed windows. I'm that customer. There was some discussion on the list about whether it was really economically worth it to frame most of the window on site with wood, instead of installing a factory built unit. I probably will have to repaint the exterior after 5 or 10 years. But I'll be repainting the exterior wood siding at the same time, so it won't really be that much more to do the window frames. And as Stephen said, he designed a sill out of fiberglass for these windows, so the part of the framing which gets the most abuse should be maintenance-free. As far as the economics, I haven't had time to really work it all out yet. But I do know that windows were probably the single largest expense for my addition. And I would guess that in lots of construction they are a very large fraction of the total expense. So, by approximately halving the cost of my fixed windows I was able to save some money. Especially for owner-builders who have more time than cash, I think site-framed fixed windows could make sense. And possibly for contractors making things like sun rooms which have many square feet of fixed glass, they could work out an efficient way of doing these windows that didn't take too much time. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 05:48:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA10625 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 05:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA29383; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 05:43:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 05:39:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA29019 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 05:39:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA29015 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 05:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-22-tnt-03.btvt.together.net [209.91.3.22]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA26296; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 05:40:25 -0500 Message-ID: <369DC992.DD645474@together.net> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 05:40:18 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Zoned "constant-volume" systems References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5751 Ian: I cannot recall coming across any independent studies about these VVT type systems in trade publications. These systems first came out 10 to 12 years ago. They are sometimes referred to as a poor man's VAV system. The problem with these systems are the highly proprietary nature of the controllers, which require special knowledge and components. Primarily for this reason, I know of clients who have had them removed and/or refuse to use these systems, going with more standard Variable Air Volume (VAV) systems instead. One big issue is the lack of fan energy savings with these systems..... because the air is by-passed... no fan capacity throttling occurs. The accepted rule of thumb for estimating energy savings of conventional VAV systems is that annually they operate at 60% to 65% of capacity. Thus one can see savings in fan energy, heating/cooling energy and outside air ventilation energy. The cost of variable speed drives (VFD) are so low now you may wish to consider this option. A recent quote for a 15 horsepower, 460 volt VFD, from ABB Inc., was only US $1600. Many VFD's are available with built in static pressure sensor inputs, complete with PID control loops. An important issue with both VAV and VVT systems: insure adequate outside is brought in at all fan operating conditions. Hope this is a help. Tom Anderson IMSHAPIRO@aol.com wrote: > I am interested to know if there are any studies of energy usage in zoned > "constant-volume" systems, which I believe go by trade names such as VVT > (Carrier), Trol-Temp (Honeywell), etc. I believe Trane, Lennox, and other > companies also offer > versions. These are the systems which have a thermostat and supply damper for > each zone, and a large bypass damper to avoid air noise when just a few zones > are needing heating or cooling. > > Thanks in advance. > > Ian > > Ian Shapiro, PE > Taitem Engineering > 108 South Albany Street > Ithaca, NY 14850 > 607 277 1118 > 607 277 2119 FAX > imshapiro@aol.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 07:35:38 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA11211 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:35:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA03078; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:30:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:26:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA02727 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:25:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901141225.HAA02727@solstice.crest.org> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:07:25 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: bathroom venting - outside vent caps Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5752 " Whatever you do, please don't screw up the historical value of a house when there are options. Really assess your needs for operable windows (ventilation, egress etc.) and replace fewer windows to hold down the costs instead of unsuitable vinyl replacements." If you don't need to open a window save to clean it out once a year, I've done a successful tightening of existing old paned windows by simply putting a double glazed single light windown on the inside of the window. Sacie Lambertson Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 07:39:15 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA11236 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:39:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA03343; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:33:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:30:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA02955 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:29:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA02949 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:29:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.magma.ca (mail2x.magma.ca [206.191.0.220]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id HAA29738; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:30:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (port199.magma.ca [206.191.5.199]) by mail2.magma.ca (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA09028; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:30:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: X-Sender: stephen@mail.magma.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:15:09 -0500 To: FUnger@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Stephen Thwaites Subject: Re: GBlist: Windows: What really matters In-Reply-To: <1e911144.369d4b6b@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5753 At 08:42 PM 1/13/99 -0500, FUnger@aol.com wrote: >I've learned to compromise my environmental priorities slightly, before I'll >compromise my customer's satisfaction and the long term quality of the >project. Just another conservative old poop I guess. > I agree, customers pay the bills and you have keep them happy. I believe that the key to great durability in windows is not just clever design, but an open design. When it comes to the highest quality windows, very few manufacturers will last longer than their windows. Rapid change is just starting to affect the very conservative millwork trade. Wood is rapidly losing market share to vinyl. Vinyl and aluminum companies are consolidating with breath taking speed. New materials like fibreglass, cellular vinyl, ABS and a host of wood composites are showing up as both entire windows and as components in hybrid windows. In short it is getting harder and harder to rely on the manufacturer for truly long term satisfaction The key to long term satisfaction is increasingly a good frame with generic hardware and weatherstripping. Generic hardware and weatherstripping means customer satisfaction is independent of the window maker's fiscal health. It also means independence from the high parts prices inflicted by many window makers. Besides generic hdrwr and weatherstripping, another key 'look for' is the snap fit glass stops that allow easy glass replacement by any glass shop - (this is what Richard K described in a post earlier today). Before you buy a window you should ask where you or customers would get parts if the manufacturer is no longer around. As long as your window's "wear points" are made w/ widely available components, then your customers won't be stuck. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 07:51:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA11469 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:51:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA03817; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:46:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:42:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA03578 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:42:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA03574 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:42:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.99.195]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA24914 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:48:16 +0000 Message-ID: <369DE2A2.7B6D7DC9@which.net> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:27:16 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: bathroom venting - outside vent caps X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5754 It doesn't make a lot of green sense to me to exhaust the warm air from the bathroom as a means of reducing the humidity. Does anyone do it another way? eg use a dehumidifier. As a much simpler way I am wondering if a metal (because it is a good heat conductor) panel cooled by the cold water on its way to the shower head ( I am assuming most shower heads mix hot and cold water, or use only cold water in the case of electric showers.) could condense enough of the vapour in the room to make a vent unecessary. I visualise a serpentine of piping with a panel clipped on to it, but there could all kinds of designs. Could be attractive and cheap. The water would drip, or run down the wall into the shower tray. Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 08:32:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA12139 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:32:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA05176; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:26:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:22:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04871 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:22:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (LFTDfdV7G4DYr278z/hCgpTNFb160FDS@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04867 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:22:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (8xdFk+24Gf8+WuZDLz4Hpr1jhNND+rG4@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA24209; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:23:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA15588; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:23:36 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <369DEFCE.6007BF8E@gs.net> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:23:26 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CN CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: LDPE, PVC, dioxin, phthalates,lead, cadmium, bromine References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5755 Chris the points that you bring up are very real and valid. I worked in a chemical plant for a bit and the unit that I was working produced Stannic and Stanis Chlorides. Lead and Chlorine combinations. EG a wide variety of lead based plastisers. An interesting by product of the process was DEET. Another nasty powder used as a bug repellent. Needless to say. After figuring out what was being made I decided it was time to move on. Steve P CN wrote: > >Chris & Alex, > > > >Do you have any knowledge on the safety of Low Density PolyEthylenes? > >We just called The First Years Inc., about a sippy cup my grandson was > >given, to make sure it wasn't PVC and were told that it is mabe of LPDE. > >That was good news until I realised I didn't know whether LDPE was any > >better the PVC. > > > >Chuck Hinckley > > Chuck, > > Well, I was recently at a conference, at which Alex Wilson was present, > which dealt specifically with PVC in building materials, and alternatives > to their use. I talked to the lead Greenpeace campaigner (Charlie Cray) on > this very question and he believes that LDPE normally has none of the > immediate health dangers of PVC and has less of the life-cycle problems. > The problem with PVC in toys or other child items is that to make it > flexible chemicals called platicizers need to be added (usually > phthalates), and these have recently been implicated as potentially toxic. > Also, a shocking number of children's PVC toys have lead and cadmium added > as PVC stabilizers. PVC is apparently unique among plastics in requiring > stabilizers of which lead and cadmium are the cheapest and therefore still > used frequently ... even in toys that children may handle or put in their > mouths. I've never heard of such toxic chemicals being added to LDPE in > children's items. However, I have read a Consumer Reports study that found > many inks used to print bread bags (which are made of LDPE) and presumably > many other LDPE items, had very high levels of lead in them. The bread > makers claimed that since it was not in direct contact with the bread it > was OK. But what about the ink that rubs off on your hands or if you > unknowingly turn the bag inside-out to reuse it and put some other food in > it??? But, I doubt they would use lead or cadmium based inks on a sippy > cup. But then again, maybe you should also ask the manufacturers. It's > good for them to get these questions so that they realize people really are > concerned about these things. > > I just read Alex Wilson's comment about LDPE being "about as clean a > polymer as you can get". Well, maybe, but it certainly still has some > environmental negatives. When it is burned, it can give off noxious > combustion products (despite what the plastics engineer at the conference > claimed). If you don't believe me then just take a match to a baggie and > take a wiff. > > I have recently been working trying to outlaw backyard burn barrels in my > rural area. Even if you could get people to keep PVC out of their burn > barrels (an impossibility unless PVC is banned), they would still have a > lot of LDPE being burned and I have tracked down one study that shows a lot > of nasties are given off by LDPE when it burns. I suppose if you have a > laboratory furnace under perfect conditions you could burn it and get just > CO2 and H2O as products ... but that is never going to happen in real life. > So, it's ultimate disposal is not without impact. Furthermore, in the > production of LDPE, many toxic chemicals are employed, which obviously in > the real world may find their way into people's air, water, or food. I > tend to agree with Greenpeace that overall, a life-cycle comparison of the > two plastics would show LDPE is better than PVC. Several studies have been > done of exactly this type of comparison, but based on disposable packaging > materials, not on longer term "durable" goods. Those studies always find > PVC to have worse overall environmental impacts than LDPE. > > By the way, on a somewhat unrelated topic, while I am responding to Alex, > we had an earlier discussion about lead solder for plumbing. I've looked > in several hardware stores and at Home Depot. Lead solder is still very > readily available at all of the places I've checked, including acid core > and no-flux, both of which are types usable for plumbing. Some of the > packages clearly warned that it was illegal to use such solder in potable > plumbing, but there were also packages which had no mention of this. And > of course, the lead solder is cheaper (and easier to use) than most of the > non-lead solders. So, how many disreputable professional plumbers, and how > many unwitting do-it-yourselfers are still using lead solder? It would be > easy enough to do a study of plumbing jobs performed since lead was banned > and get a rough idea ... but I wonder whether the EPA has the guts to do > such a study. > > Hmm, and now I read Alex's question about bromine in plastics. Yes, > brominated dioxins are a little studied, but potentially just as toxic > chemical as chlorinated dioxins. I think bromine compounds are not likely > to be added to toys but they certainly could be added to building materials > and electronics parts, as fire-prevention is a big deal with these > materials. And, I do remember that fire-retardant compounds were once > added to children's pajamas, until they were found to be a health hazard. > So, this is an area where you can't assume anything. > > It's only a rough first approximation, but since PVC is often more than 50% > chlorine by weight, while bromine fire additives in one case were said to > be about 1% by weight ... one might surmise that the fire-retarded plastics > are less of an environmental problem than PVC. > > Sorry I don't really have the answers to these questions. > > Chris Neurath > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 08:37:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA12177 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:37:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA05697; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:32:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:28:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA05332 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:28:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (koFANIXQp1kEdq+epumcNFKjdj+n1Ii9@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA05328 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (a2PZrGNKvCkMRtBijT77dxmCmhHg2mOr@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA24527; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:29:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA15805; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:29:42 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <369DF13C.F606623E@gs.net> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:29:32 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CN CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Thermotech Windows Website References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5756 Just another aside. For those looking at fiberglass filled windows. Compare the Owens Corning units. The seem to a very solid construction with similar features to most of the high end window units on the market. Steve P CN wrote: > Rob Tom mentioned Thermotech Windows. > > The recent addition to my house in northern New York State is outfitted > with fiberglass framed windows from Thermotech. I got the "ultimate" > glazing option of three panes, with argon filling, low-e coatings on two > surfaces and the silicone-foam spacers. As I type it is -15 F outside and > breezy. The inside surfaces of the glass are only slightly cool to the > touch and there is only a tiny amount of condensation (about 1/2") along > the bottom of the glass. The indoor humidity is between 30 and 40%. And > that slight amount of condensation will only contact fiberglass, so there > is very little chance it will cause mold to grow and I don't need > preservatives as in wood frame to slow down mold growth. Anyone looking > for a high quality window should definitely look into Thermotech's > fiberglass line. I also find them to be aesthetically very nice. And, as > Rob Tom said, Thermotech's web site has lots of good information and > Stephen Thwaites really knows windows. > > In a related vein, in a recent post Stephen mentioned a customer who he > worked with to make end-user framed fixed windows. I'm that customer. > There was some discussion on the list about whether it was really > economically worth it to frame most of the window on site with wood, > instead of installing a factory built unit. I probably will have to > repaint the exterior after 5 or 10 years. But I'll be repainting the > exterior wood siding at the same time, so it won't really be that much more > to do the window frames. And as Stephen said, he designed a sill out of > fiberglass for these windows, so the part of the framing which gets the > most abuse should be maintenance-free. As far as the economics, I haven't > had time to really work it all out yet. But I do know that windows were > probably the single largest expense for my addition. And I would guess > that in lots of construction they are a very large fraction of the total > expense. So, by approximately halving the cost of my fixed windows I was > able to save some money. Especially for owner-builders who have more time > than cash, I think site-framed fixed windows could make sense. And > possibly for contractors making things like sun rooms which have many > square feet of fixed glass, they could work out an efficient way of doing > these windows that didn't take too much time. > > Chris Neurath > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 08:46:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA12246 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:46:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06332; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:40:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:37:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA05929 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:37:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (hx1LYxmku7SEl+86NKthwm47U0P23Cvy@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA05908 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:36:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (asWYDv6xaV///8mAOlnsFJjxVtuVplTy@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA24933; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:37:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA16052; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:37:47 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <369DF321.B43D1668@gs.net> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:37:37 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FUnger@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Windows: What really matters References: <1e911144.369d4b6b@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5757 Fred : Could not agree more. That is why I tend to stay with name brand windows. I have had good success with HURD windows just to add one to the list. Steve P FUnger@aol.com wrote: > Friends, > > The discussion of frame materials for windows reminds me of the story of the > blind men describing an elephant in completely different ways based on the > different parts that they touch. None of them gets the big picture. My sense > is that this is often true of how people select windows as well: on frame > material, specialty glazing or architectural design, without taking into > account the whole picture on this critical component of buildings. > > Operating on the technological cutting edge of the sunroom and window > businesses for several years, gave me an opportunity to explore window > technology extensively. It taught me to stay back a bit from that edge and let > others play guinea pig for new manufacturers. I decided that what really > matters is not any of the separate components alone, but the entire window > system, along with the manufacturing, distribution and service system that > stands behind it. > > The integrated system of design, engineering, attention to detail, > manufacturing quality, glazing technology, warranty, factory service and > installation are far more critical to what really affects people's lives, than > any individual material component. I learned the hard way from hundreds of > failed insulated glass units, from windows that had amazing advanced > engineering in themselves yet ridiculously stupid interfaces to the rest of > the wall system, from super high tech windows with screens that never worked, > from unfixable leaks, from manufacturers going bankrupt or simply ignoring > their warranty and service responsibilities, from terrible delivery schedules > that screwed up jobs for months on end, from parts that were impossible to > get, and mostly from many unhappy customers who would have preferred that the > windows were a bit less cutting edge and a lot more durable and user friendly. > > So while the ideal choice of components would be great, it no longer is my top > priority in choosing windows. I haven't found a really innovative sustainable > window manufacturer that also meets all the other priorities I now find > necessary for that warm fuzzy feeling about making the right window choice. > I've gone back to the big boys with strong distribution and service > organizations: Marvin, Pella and Andersen. Less than perfect windows, but > pretty darn good. When the new guys come calling, I am a lot more skeptical of > the sales pitch. I encourage them to get my favorite millwork distributor to > handle their product, take care of service and stock parts. Now they've got to > prove their claims, especially for service, before I'll buy. > > I've learned to compromise my environmental priorities slightly, before I'll > compromise my customer's satisfaction and the long term quality of the > project. Just another conservative old poop I guess. > > Fred > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 11:46:38 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17678 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:46:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11424; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:15:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:11:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11009 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:11:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from sims-ha.videotron.net (faure.videotron.net [205.151.222.100]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11005 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:11:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from videotron.ca (ppp244.118.mmtl.videotron.net) by sims-ha.videotron.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1998.09.21.23.34) with ESMTP id <0F5K002VQ21NMZ@sims-ha.videotron.net> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:08:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:08:27 -0500 From: Wade Eide Subject: Re: GBlist: Community Environmental Indicators To: Marcus Sheffer Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: <369E086B.A23C10A1@videotron.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en References: <3.0.3.32.19990113171307.006a7f58@cyberia.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5758 Marcus Sheffer wrote: > > This may be somewhat off topic but I have been asked to participate in a > local process to develop a set of community indicators. The purpose is to Marcus, You might have a look at the Urban Quality Indicators website: http://hometown.aol.com/CYoakam578/UQIHomePg.html UQI is a newsletter that shares and critiques information on various efforts in North America measuring the quality, health and sustainability of its communities - from neighborhoods to regions. Published by Urban Quality Communications, Ann Arbor, MI. Wade Eide Montreal ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 11:46:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17685 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09773; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:46:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:42:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09327 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:42:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09323 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA14687; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:43:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from vna-va14-42.ix.netcom.com(207.223.178.234) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma014669; Thu Jan 14 08:42:39 1999 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990114094012.0072cbd8@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:40:16 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: LBNL Building Design Advisor 1.0 Cc: K_Papamichael@lbl.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5759 Energy Software Update, via Bion Howard cc: EEBA List (no need to further cross post) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- LBNL announces the release of BDA 1.0, available free of charge from http://kmp.lbl.gov/BDA. We look forward to your comments and suggestions on its functionality, towards making the 2.0 version better serve your needs. For the BDA development team, Kostas Papamichael Konstantinos Papamichael, Ph.D., Staff Architect/Scientist, PI Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, University of California 1 Cyclotron Road, MS 90-3111, Berkeley, CA 94720, USA Phone: [1] (510) 486-6854, FAX: [1] (510) 486-4089 E-mail: K_Papamichael@lbl.gov, WWW: http://eande.lbl.gov/BTP/KOSTAS.html ------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 12:49:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA19080 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:49:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22436; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:44:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:39:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21545 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:39:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from panther.golden.net (root@panther.golden.net [199.166.210.120]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21539 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:39:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-26-39.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.133.39]) by panther.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA07156; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:40:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:43:39 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE3FBB.828A79A0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Richard Kadulski'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Vinyl-framed Windows Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:56:46 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5760 On Wednesday, January 13, 1999 7:40 PM, Richard Kadulski [SMTP:kadulski@direct.ca] wrote: > My understanding is that in Germany, (if not other parts of Europe) manufacturers must now > have a program to take back vinyl frames at the end of their useful life. As someone else > pointed out, a well designed window will last much longer than 10 or 20 years, and vinyl has > been used in Europe much longer than in North America for this application. I am not sure about the take-back requirements in Germany (although it sounds very German-like), I can only say when I worked there, vinyl was used only for cheap building applications and their cheap vinyl windows were better than most North American manufactuer's top of the line models. In fact, I only saw vinyl windows that had steel inserts for stiffness (in some US states I have seen 3' plus wide casements with no steel reinforcement -- guaraneteed to sag over time), and cant recall seeing any sliding windows (double hung or horizontal sliders), since they were all tilt and turn or casements. Many times these windows had double neoprene gaskets (sweep and bulb), protected pressure equalization holes, hinges good for 100 kgs, with bushings no less (!), etc. There is no doubt good vinyl windows can be made, but the price difference from wood that Bruce quoted makes me suspicious that he is comparing apples and oranges with respect to quality.. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 12:49:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA19085 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:49:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22432; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:44:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:39:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21519 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:39:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from panther.golden.net (root@panther.golden.net [199.166.210.120]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21512 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:39:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-26-39.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.133.39]) by panther.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA07162; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:40:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:43:45 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE3FBB.8634E400.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Richard Kadulski'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: RE: Floor slabs and vapor barriers Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 23:07:09 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5761 On Wednesday, January 13, 1999 7:21 PM, Richard Kadulski [SMTP:kadulski@direct.ca] wrote: > The Swedes use a lot of EPS - expanded polystyrene foam (or beadboard). Except for the least > dense material, the amount of moisture it absorbs is minimal, so water is kept out, and it > keeps the heat in. Don't forget that EPS is a commonly used floatation material, for boats > and floating docks - items you would not want to see absorb water!. All water flotation devices I have seen are made of EXPS. EPS is open celled, and even the 2 pcf variety can store 30% and more its own volume in water. > I don't believe the high density mineral fiber insulation is designed for HORIZONTAL under > slab applications. They do, it is only a matter of material design. I am not sure if you have it, but check the foundation section of the Fukthandbok. John Timusk is a great fan of the mineral wool under the slab technique. >It probably won't take the structural loads, Roxul makes a roof board called Toprock that can take 10 psi. Thats 1440 psf, about 20 times higher than most basement floor loads. High density rockwool absobs no more water than EPS, and dries more quickly. Fibrex in Sarnia makes a roof board that can take 12 psi! (BTW, most EPS is good for 10 psi and most EXPS for 25 psi) Rockwool A/S, the huge danish firm, sells a lot of rigid fiber insulation for exterior use on low-sloped roofs over the membrane. Field studies have shown that Styrofoam picks up moisture over time in such roofs and rockwool does not. Try lifting a slab of Styrofoam next time you see an inverted roof being replaced -- the reason it is so heavy is because it picks up moisture. > and it does absorb moisture, > so ground water would be caught up in it. The rigid fiber is great for VERTICAL applications, > where the fiber alignment allows water to drain in the plane of the surface. In these boards > only the surface layer (1/4" or so) gets wet. The balance remains dry, and provides > insulation properties. The below slab location should not be submerged under water, except for exceptional and short term situations. Most of the time the insulation merely has to to have no capillary activity. Rock, slag, glass fibres as well as foam plastics all do this job well. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 13:11:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA19564 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:11:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24166; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:02:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:58:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23631 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:58:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23614 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:58:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:55:49 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E308@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: Bathroom venting -Reply Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:55:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5762 Depends on what you want to use it for. I'm curious if anyone on the list has exerience with Tamarak's Airetrak. It's a programmable timer which allows the fan to be turned on (from between 40%-100% of capacity) for predetermined periods, but which has a switch which will toggle the fan on full-speed for 15 minutes. Sounds like a great way to provide (exhaust-only) ventilation which then gets boosted when needed to remove moisture and odors from the bathroom. > -----Original Message----- > From: Tom Manney [mailto:tmanney@ksu.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 1999 11:58 PM > To: ledbalon > Cc: Rogers, Mike; greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom venting -Reply > > > I appreciate enough noise from the fan to remind me that it is on..The > timer switch is a good idea. Can anyone recommend a good one? > > Tom Manney > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 13:50:26 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA20331 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:50:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA27015; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:45:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:41:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26640 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:41:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26632 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 13:40:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 17631 invoked from network); 14 Jan 1999 18:41:56 -0000 Received: from i48-12-24.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO alee) (216.26.4.216) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 14 Jan 1999 18:41:56 -0000 Message-ID: <369E3A79.7B04@teleport.com> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:42:01 -0800 From: A Lee X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" CC: "'Richard Kadulski'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Re: Product Take Back References: <01BE3FBB.828A79A0.jfstraube@golden.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5763 My understanding is the countries in the EU have legislated take back requirements for products in general, not just vinyl windows. Japan and Brazil have also established similar legislation. These mean that the manufacturer is responsible for each product over its entire life cycle and must take it back after its useful life. Some companies in Europe have already set up special plants to process and remanufacture returned products. These requirements are especially interesting because they require the products to be designed for easy disassembly, have minimal content of environmentally undesirable components, etc. Although the US has no such requirements yet, US companies doing business where these requirements exist have to learn to comply. I'd be interested in any more specifics that anyone knows about these requirements. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 14:19:05 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA21083 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:19:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29186; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:12:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:08:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28784 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:08:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28780 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:08:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-71-MAX-BTVT-06.ramp.together.net [208.13.204.71]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA23347 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:09:38 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990114140941.007e42f0@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:09:41 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re: Windows In-Reply-To: <199901141739.MAA21587@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5764 I can't resist the window conversation. A couple of years ago we completed a field study of energy efficiency of existing residential double hung wood windows and windows that had been treated, with treatments ranging from caulking the top sash closed and adding camlocks for the bottom sash and rehabbing the storm, to complete replacement, and many treatemtns in between. Brad James, then a grad student, did air leakage measurements on about 150 windows. We calculated other heating loads. We looked only at heating. The short version of the story is that you can't justify the expense of replacing sash on energy considerations alone (unless the window is really a dog.) Other considerations include operability, maintenance, egress, lead abatement esthetics and historic preservation. Once you do decide on a course of action, though, the marginal cost of energy efficiency features can have a decent rate of return, not to mention comfort issues or life-on-the-planet preservation issues. Rehabbing the existing sash, including installing some type of weatherstripping and adding a low-e storm and perhaps sealing the top sash, should be considered in your mix of possibilities if your sash aren't shot. The interior storms we tested had the added benefit of reducing the air leakage that came through the window pulley weight cavities and other non-sash leakage areas. Another advantage in clod climates of interior storms is that the inner window (if it's a decent interior storm) is tighter than the outer, so the space between is preferentially filled with drier outside air, for less condensation. In Vermont, a new exterior storm on an old leaky window can be covered with ice for much of the winter. The full report or a summary can be had from the National Center for Preservation Technology and Training, who funded the study. Try ncptt@alpha.nsula.edu. On a library where we had historic windows and an elderly librarian who sat next to a very large double-hung window, we added a low-e storm panel on each sash and a low-e interior storm. (The weatherstripping was already OK.) The performance approaches that of superwindows and this treatment keeps the historic material and historic look. By the way, Accurate Dorwin (888-982-4640) is one of Thermotech's (613-225-1101) competitors and also should be on your bid-list for fiberglass windows. I am a big fan of both of these windows. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance Inc Montpelier VT USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 17:05:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24596 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:05:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA07159; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:59:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:55:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA06691 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:55:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06679 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:55:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (chtw01-3-14.pei.sympatico.ca [207.34.30.46]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA24059 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:56:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <369E6844.21F3@pei.sympatico.ca> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:57:24 -0400 From: Phil Ferraro Reply-To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Enviro Design References: <3.0.3.32.19990113171307.006a7f58@cyberia.com> <369E086B.A23C10A1@videotron.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5765 ENVIRONDESIGN3 http://www.isdesignet.com EnvironDesign3, slated for April 29 to May 1, 1999 in Baltimore, MD, is the premier conference on sustainable design and building practices for designers and architects. Workshops provide endless learning opportunities and concrete solutions to many of the practical challenges faced when exploring sustainable design issues. Keynotes include presentations by "Ishmael" author Daniel Quinn, architect Bill McDonough, the World Resource Institute's Allen Hammond, David Pearson, founder of the Ecological Design Association and David Gottfried, president of Gottfried Technology. Visit with manufacturers in the Product Learning Center to learn more about their environmental products and initiatives. In three short days, you will be exposed to a multitude of new ideas, break-through research and passionate encouragement that will change your life, change your aspirations, change your career . . . forever. Produced by Interiors & Sources magazine; co-hosted by the US Green Building Council. Call 561 627 3393 or visit . ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 17:50:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA25371 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:50:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA10651; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:42:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:38:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA10159 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:38:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA10146 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:38:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from reg-53-0128.direct.ca ([216.66.142.28] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #18) id 100vPs-0002Ic-00 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:39:05 -0800 Message-ID: <369E3FD7.5C01603E@direct.ca> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:04:56 -0800 From: Richard Kadulski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-SYMPA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: bathroom venting - outside vent caps References: <199901141739.MAA21587@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5766 > From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) > > It doesn't make a lot of green sense to me to exhaust the warm air from > the bathroom as a means of reducing the humidity. Does anyone do it > another way? eg use a dehumidifier. Please. The point of ventilation is to deal with INDOOR AIR QUALITY concerns. Moisture is only one contaminant. There are all the other odors generated in the bathroom - not to mention in the rest of the house that have to be dealt with. A bathroom fan will allow for a small amount of air change - the fresh air coming through the air leakage sources of the house, but on average providing a measure of air change - providing the fan is allowed to run. The cost of the heated air lost is nominal in most cases, but is a necessity. > As a much simpler way I am wondering > if a metal (because it is a good heat conductor) panel cooled by the > cold water on its way to the shower head ( I am assuming most shower > heads mix hot and cold water, or use only cold water in the case of > electric showers.) could condense enough of the vapour in the room to > make a vent unecessary. I visualise a serpentine of piping with a panel > clipped on to it, but there could all kinds of designs. Could be > attractive and cheap. The water would drip, or run down the wall into > the shower tray. > -- Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver, BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax 604-689-11841 Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design Editor Solplan Review: the independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 18:10:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA25662 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:10:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA12002; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:05:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:01:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA11670 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:01:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11664 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:01:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18316 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:01:10 -0600 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:58:52 -0600 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Use of flyash in concrete Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:58:52 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5767 Some of you may already have seen this, but for those who haven't........ - Patrick Pierquet CONCRETE CLEANER WITH FLY ASH Experts on global warming link 7 percent of the world's carbon dioxide emissions to the production of portland cement, a component of concrete. P. Kumar Mehta, a professor emeritus of civil engineering at the University of California at Berkeley, suggests fly ash as a clean substitute. Mehta says that replacing up to 60 percent of the portland cement with fly ash, along with a superplasticizer, achieves excellent strength and durability in a concrete mix. Presently, conventional construction codes allow only 15 percent because fly ash, a derivative of heated impurities in coal, may lessen concrete's initial strength gain. But F. Macgregor Miller, senior principal process scientist at Construction Technologies Laboratory Inc. in Skokie, Illinois says that after 28 days concrete with fly ash usually bonds with more strength than normal concrete. Today only 10 percent of the 60 million tons of fly ash annually produced in the US is used in concrete. [For more information, email P. Kumar Mehta .] - ENR, 21 Dec 98, p 13, by David B. Rosenbaum. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 20:59:34 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA27960 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:59:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA20154; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:49:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA19791 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:49:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA19781 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:49:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.magma.ca (mail2.magma.ca [206.191.0.218]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA24424; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:50:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (port-2-115.magma.ca [206.191.63.115]) by mail2.magma.ca (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA29179; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:50:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901150150.UAA29179@mail2.magma.ca> X-Sender: stephen@mail.magma.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:49:30 -0500 To: AO , greenbuilding From: Stephen Thwaites Subject: Re: GBlist: Daptex In-Reply-To: <369D822B.D5BFB71F@pop.pitt.edu> References: <369C9B5F.2DA3@cyberzone.net> <199901132351.SAA08090@mail2.magma.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5768 At 12:35 AM 1/14/99 -0500, AO wrote: >I agree it's always worthwhile to question "facts", opinion, and conclusions, >etc., regardless of the source of information. I'm amazed how often I've seen >that it's turned out to be tangibly worthwhile to watch out, and take >everything with a grain of salt! Btw, watch out for statistics, too. They can >be VERY misleading. > Couldn't agree more >What does CMHC stand for? Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation - they're research arm is a lead agency on issues like mold, chemical sensitivities among others (www.cmhc.ca) Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ltd Ottawa Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 21:59:55 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA28627 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:59:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA22496; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:55:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:50:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA22202 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:50:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22196 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:50:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.247] (pm3a17.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.241]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA29806; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:50:19 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:50:19 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) [207.136.199.247] from pm3a17.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.241] 207.136.199.241 Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:50:19 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199901150150.UAA29179@mail2.magma.ca> References: <369D822B.D5BFB71F@pop.pitt.edu> <369C9B5F.2DA3@cyberzone.net> <199901132351.SAA08090@mail2.magma.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Stephen Thwaites , AO , greenbuilding From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Daptex Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5769 At 8:49 PM -0500 1/14/99, Stephen Thwaites wrote: >>What does CMHC stand for? > >Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation - they're research arm is a lead >agency on issues like mold, chemical sensitivities among others (www.cmhc.ca) I do believe, Stephen, that it's "Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation." (It's a little far north for real adjectives.) -Alex Environmental Building News 122 Birge Street, Suite 30 Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 22:11:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA28746 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:11:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA23104; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:06:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:02:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA22792 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:02:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA22783 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:02:16 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ653142; Thu, 14 Jan 99 20:02:36 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA54600; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:02:15 -0700 Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 20:02:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Patrick Pierquet Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: Use of flyash in concrete In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5770 Patrick: Someone should ask P.Kumar Mehta, a professor emeritus of civil engineering at the University of California at Berkeley, what kind of dangerous byproducts come with his flyash, as a result of combustion at coal fired generating plants. I used to think that flyash could be used as described. But now I have serious reservations. Much of the research you mention has been predated by similar work by others. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 23:12:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA29607 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:12:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA25936; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:07:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:03:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25628 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:03:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25614 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:03:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.50] (rkd026.acadia.net [208.244.128.50]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA09975 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:04:24 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:03:10 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: RE: GBlist: Bathroom venting -Reply Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5771 Mike Rogers wrote: >I'm curious if anyone on the list has exerience with Tamarak's Airetrak. >It's a programmable timer which allows the fan to be turned on (from between >40%-100% of capacity) for predetermined periods, but which has a switch >which will toggle the fan on full-speed for 15 minutes. Sounds like a great >way to provide (exhaust-only) ventilation which then gets boosted when >needed to remove moisture and odors from the bathroom. end of quote. Mike, we've used these a lot, and we think they're great. We buy them either from Tamarack Technologies or Energy Federation, Inc., both of which are great companies. We usually rely on passive air vents or vent flaps in skylights to provide the makeup air. One caveat though: you have to do a thorough job of educating homeowners about how to program them and use them. They do need to be reprogrammed after an extended power outage, and some people may want to program them differently according to the seasons. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 14 23:21:41 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA29716 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:21:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA26401; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:16:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:12:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA26125 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:12:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26114 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 23:12:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA01892 for ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:13:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-wa46-55.ix.netcom.com(207.220.47.183) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma029156; Thu Jan 14 21:49:52 1999 Message-ID: <001d01be3ff6$9f73be60$b72fdccf@upesi> From: "Russel DeLombard" To: Subject: GBlist: CADD Software Suggestions Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 19:46:46 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE3FF6.9E7C3F00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5772 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE3FF6.9E7C3F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 08 Jan 1999 Neil Speigel wrote: >I am looking for a CADD program ...I have played with things like 3D = home architect >before with a lot of success until it wouldn't let me do things... Neil, Sounds like you could be a candidate for Chief Architect, a more = complete version of 3D Home Architect. I use AutoCAD R14 with a 3rd = party architectural software (ArchT), which as you have probably = gathered is tres expensive and has a STEEP learning curve. I have used 3D Home Architect and think it is exceptional good value for = the money...but limited as you found out. I have tried the Chief = Architect demo. It seems to work the same as 3DHA but has added = features, especially to the point, a CAD component which allows drawing = details, sheet borders etc. But that all comes with a price tag. It = normally sells for $895...but I recently saw that they have a special of = $200 off thru 31 Jan 1999. They also will throw in a training seminar = and hotel...if you have the inclination to visit Idaho in the winter = :-). You can download a demo version (fully functional but disabled printing, = saving etc.) from their web site at http://www.chiefarch.com/ . Cheers, Russel DeLombard (rus_d@ix.netcom.com) ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE3FF6.9E7C3F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 08 Jan 1999 Neil Speigel = wrote:
 
>I am looking for a CADD program=20 ...I have played with things like = 3D home=20 architect
>before with a lot of success = until it=20 wouldn't let me do things...
 
Neil,
 
Sounds like you could be a candidate = for Chief=20 Architect, a more complete version of 3D Home Architect.  I use = AutoCAD R14=20 with a 3rd party architectural software (ArchT), which as you have = probably=20 gathered is tres expensive and has a STEEP learning curve.
 
I have used 3D Home Architect and = think it is=20 exceptional good value for the money...but limited as you found = out.  I=20 have tried the Chief Architect demo.  It seems to work the same as = 3DHA but=20 has added features, especially to the point, a CAD component which = allows=20 drawing details, sheet borders etc.  But that all comes with a = price=20 tag.  It normally sells for $895...but I recently saw that they = have a=20 special of $200 off thru 31 Jan 1999.  They also will throw in a = training=20 seminar and hotel...if you have the inclination to visit Idaho in the = winter=20 :-).
 
You can download a demo version = (fully=20 functional but disabled printing, saving etc.) from their web site at http://www.chiefarch.com/ = .
 
Cheers,
 
Russel DeLombard (rus_d@ix.netcom.com)
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01BE3FF6.9E7C3F00-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 15 01:32:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA01389 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA00052; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:28:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:24:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA29782 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:23:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.monumental.com (mail1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA29778 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:23:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by mail1.monumental.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15556 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:19:53 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mnsinc.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 21:12:04 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: Fly ash, bad story Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5773 990114 This just in: Local (near Richmond, VA) Home Depot store is latest victim of toooo much fly ash in their slab. Cracks started appearing in their floor less than 6 mos after opening...and with the weight of those high shelves... Bottom line--the store must be demolished & rebuilt! The lawsuits they are a flyin' like birds in the spring. Not good, and they are not the first in this area to experience this problem. Just another one of those unintended consequences stories. jh from the lilypad house ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 15 01:41:36 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA01467 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA00472; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:36:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:33:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA00223 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:32:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA00219 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 01:32:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.40]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4095800 ; Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:37:43 -0800 Message-ID: <369EE0EE.EA68B4A@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:32:14 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Wilson CC: Stephen Thwaites , AO , greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Daptex References: <369D822B.D5BFB71F@pop.pitt.edu> <369C9B5F.2DA3@cyberzone.net> <199901132351.SAA08090@mail2.magma.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5774 The northern use of real adjectives has become unrestricted since free trade - probably the only real benefit we've realized. A 'canadian' mortgage is probably an extraneous use of the word but it does make me wonder who does own our mortgages. Inadvertent use of adjectives however is definitely more common in capital regions . . . or it might be the resin. John (a mortgaged canadian) Alex Wilson wrote: > At 8:49 PM -0500 1/14/99, Stephen Thwaites wrote: > >>What does CMHC stand for? > > > >Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation - they're research arm is a lead > >agency on issues like mold, chemical sensitivities among others (www.cmhc.ca) > > I do believe, Stephen, that it's "Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation." > (It's a little far north for real adjectives.) > > -Alex > > Environmental Building News > 122 Birge Street, Suite 30 > Brattleboro, VT 05301 > 802/257-7300 > 802/257-7304 (fax) > http://www.ebuild.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 15 08:55:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA04418 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:55:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12689; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:50:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:43:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12243 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:43:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12236 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:43:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA25839; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 06:44:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-069.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.69), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd022730; Fri Jan 15 06:39:19 1999 Message-ID: <369F453F.2AC8CBEB@primenet.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 06:40:15 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gary Anderson CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Lights of America References: <19990114032012.22820.rocketmail@send103.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5775 I have been using about 12 "Lights of America" compact fl. for nearly three years and have not had one go out. I use two in my garage. I also have a couple in a fifth wheel that I use occasionally (again over more than two years). The trailer lamps run off a Trace inverter. These have never had a problem. All of mine our straight tubes, 4 tubes together, in either 60 or 75 watt light output ratings. Personally I am very pleased with these lamps. Regards, John Wilson Nogal, NM. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 15 09:34:38 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04898 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:34:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14672; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:29:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:23:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14202 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:23:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14198 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:23:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from apple.babb.com by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id ZRHZ84KZ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:36:53 -0500 Received: by apple.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BE4067.F90954A0@apple.babb.com>; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:18:11 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE4067.F90954A0@apple.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'GBLIST'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Use of flyash in concrete Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:18:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA14199 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5776 Greetings! What kind of dangerous byproducts come with flyash as a result of coal fired generating plants? I am very interested in the past research mentioned below... We use flyash (in AAC), but it has been tested and is clean. Flyash varies due to differing sources of coal... What similar work that predates Mehta's are you referring to? I am eager to learn... I work with flyash, and would certainly like to avoid any dangers that may be involved. Thanks Jillanna Babb-Cheshul << Patrick: Someone should ask P.Kumar Mehta, a professor emeritus of civil engineering at the University of California at Berkeley, what kind of dangerous byproducts come with his flyash, as a result of combustion at coal fired generating plants. I used to think that flyash could be used as described. But now I have serious reservations. Much of the research you mention has been predated by similar work by others. Jorg Ostrowski >> ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 15 10:14:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06418 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:14:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17423; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:09:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:02:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16670 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:02:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16665 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:02:15 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ968968; Fri, 15 Jan 99 08:03:02 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA42500; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:02:15 -0700 Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 08:02:15 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Jillanna Babb Cc: "'GBLIST'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Use of flyash in concrete In-Reply-To: <01BE4067.F90954A0@apple.babb.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5777 Jilliana: I remember one person asked me if I knew how much radioactivity the flyash contained. Since I did not know, we stopped using it. Checking with a supplier, they noted that the amount was "negligible". That was unacceptable to me. Until we get a proper answer, no flyash in projects for human beings. In Alberta the burning of coal produces toxic waste such as: mercury, hexavalent chromium, inorganic cadmium, lead, nickel compounds, inorganic arsenic. (Alberta) Beyond that, coal burning generating plants may also produce "acids and anhydrides, amines, inorganic salts, carbonyl compounds, hetercyclics, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, suphur compounds, organic metallics, cyanides, trace elements, toxic elements, radioactive elements, nitric acid, nitrosamines, chromium chloride, formaldehyde, pyridines, benzene, hydrogen sulphide,tetraethyl lead, hydrogen cyanide and radium."(LBL) Our previous use of flyash was based on research done perhaps 10 years ago at the University of Calgary. Reports were produced for Alberta Municipal Affairs. Until I know the results of these contaminants and their effect on health, flyash in concrete is a good theory. I am not sure what application there may be where the product is not handled by humans or used for human occupation. Perhaps someone can correct me. Jorg Ostrowski ___________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Jillanna Babb wrote: > > Greetings! > What kind of dangerous byproducts come with flyash as a result of coal fired generating plants? I am very interested in the past research mentioned below... > We use flyash (in AAC), but it has been tested and is clean. Flyash varies due to differing sources of coal... > What similar work that predates Mehta's are you referring to? I am eager to learn... I work with flyash, and would certainly like to avoid any dangers that may be involved. > Thanks > Jillanna Babb-Cheshul > > > > << Patrick: Someone should ask P.Kumar Mehta, a professor emeritus of civil > engineering at the University of California at Berkeley, what kind of > dangerous byproducts come with his flyash, as a result of combustion at > coal fired generating plants. I used to think that flyash could be > used as described. But now I have serious reservations. Much of the > research you mention has been predated by similar work by others. > Jorg Ostrowski >> > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 15 10:14:08 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06423 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:14:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17445; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:09:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:02:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16700 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:02:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16695 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:02:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from aecnet.aecnet.com (1Cust137.tnt14.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.142.137]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA15758 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:03:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.0.2.19990115095555.00a97920@earthlink.net> X-Sender: greenbergman@earthlink.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:58:44 -0500 To: From: David Bergman Subject: Re: GBlist: CADD Software Suggestions In-Reply-To: <001d01be3ff6$9f73be60$b72fdccf@upesi> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; types="text/plain,text/html"; boundary="=====================_62162050==_.ALT" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5778 --=====================_62162050==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:46 PM 1/14/99 +0000, you wrote: > > On 08 Jan 1999 Neil Speigel wrote: > > >I am looking for a CADD program ...I have played with things like 3D home > architect > >before with a lot of success until it wouldn't let me do things... > > Neil, > > Sounds like you could be a candidate for Chief Architect, a more complete > version of 3D Home Architect..... > > You can download a demo version (fully functional but disabled printing, > saving etc.) from their web site at > http://www.chiefarch.com/ . > > Cheers, > > Russel DeLombard (rus_d@ix.netcom.com) Regarding DataCad, I forgot to mention that they, too, have a demo at their website, http://www.datacad.com. I beleive it is a fully functioning version with a 30 day limit. David Bergman David Bergman Architects/Fire & Water Lighting bergman@cyberg.com http://cyberg.com V 212 475 3106 F 212 677 7291 --=====================_62162050==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 07:46 PM 1/14/99 +0000, you wrote:
On 08 Jan 1999 Neil Speigel wrote:

>I am looking for a CADD program ...I have played with things like 3D home architect
>before with a lot of success until it wouldn't let me do things...

Neil,

Sounds like you could be a candidate for Chief Architect, a more complete version of 3D Home Architect.....

You can download a demo version (fully functional but disabled printing, saving etc.) from their web site at http://www.chiefarch.com/ .

Cheers,

Russel DeLombard (rus_d@ix.netcom.com)

Regarding DataCad, I forgot to mention that they, too, have a demo at their website, http://www.datacad.com.  I beleive it is a fully functioning version with a 30 day limit.

David Bergman
David Bergman Architects/Fire & Water Lighting
bergman@cyberg.com

V 212 475 3106  F 212 677 7291 --=====================_62162050==_.ALT-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 15 10:16:42 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06486 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:16:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17748; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:11:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:05:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16968 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:05:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16964 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:05:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:01:28 -0500 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF3618D5@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: GBlist: FW: Committee On The Environment (COTE) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:04:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5779 For those GBlisters in the Washington, DC area: > You are invited to join us as Bovis hosts the American Institute of > Architects Committee On The Environment's monthly meeting on Wednesday, > January 27, 1999. > > Speaker: Terrel Emmons, Chief Architect and Associate Director of > Engineering for the Naval Facilities Engineering Command Headquarters > (NAVFAC) will be the presenter and will discuss Sustainable Design and > what steps federal agencies are taking to incorporate sustainability > principles and concepts into their projects. Topics included will be the > three sustainable design policy statements issued by NAVFAC in June 1998 > and an Executive Order which will be signed by President Clinton soon. > Time permitting, Mr. Emmons will discuss several project case histories. > > Time: 5:30 to 7:30 > Refreshments will be provided. > > The meeting will be hosted by Bovis Construction Corp. at our Bethesda > office, 7475 Wisconsin Avenue, 10th floor. (301) 951-3800. > > Please RSVP to Shelly Kelly at Bovis, (703) 206-3405 or email: > michele.kelly@bovis.com so we can make your name tag in advance. > > Directions: > Bovis Construction Corp > 7475 Wisconsin Avenue, 10th Floor > Bethesda, MD 20841 > (301) 951-3800 > > > From Downtown Washington > Go north on Wisconsin Avenue. Turn right onto Montgomery Avenue, get in > far left lane right away and turn left into public parking garage. (The > garage is half a block from Wisconsin Ave.) > > From the Beltway > Take Wisconsin Avenue south approximately 10 stop lights. Get in the left > lane. On your left, you will see our building at the corner of East West > Highway and Wisconsin Ave. ("7475" with orange neon at the top). The Hyatt > hotel will be on your right. Continue south to the next street and turn > left onto Montgomery Ave. Go half a block and turn left into the public > parking garage. > > Once you are in the garage > Walk back out to Montgomery, turn right and walk the half block back to > Wisconsin. Turn right and walk one block to the main entrance to our > building. Enter the building through the large glass, double doors. > > Once you are in the Building > Stay to your right, walk about 40 feet to another set of smaller glass > double doors. Enter the lobby and take the elevator to the 10th floor. > > From the Metro > Get off at the Bethesda station. Take the first escalator up to ground > level. Stay to your right and walk about 100 feet and enter the tunnel > under Wisconsin Ave. When you pass through the 2nd set of double doors > you are in our building. Take the escalator up to street level. Turn to > your left at the top of the escalator, and the lobby doors will be about > 30 feet away. Take the elevator in the lobby to the 10th Floor. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Drew George, Green Building Champion > Bovis Construction Corp > 7475 Wisconsin Avenue, 10th Floor > Bethesda MD 20814 USA > Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 > http://www.bovis.com > Drew.George@Bovis.com > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 15 11:04:41 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07651 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 11:04:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20275; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:53:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19761 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:52:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19756 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:52:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA11315 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:53:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-wa35-12.ix.netcom.com(207.220.42.12) by dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma011248; Fri Jan 15 09:52:40 1999 Message-ID: <008801be405b$97210dc0$0c2adccf@upesi> From: "Russel DeLombard" To: Subject: GBlist: Thermal performance and CMU walls Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 07:49:31 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0085_01BE405B.95DD1C10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5780 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0085_01BE405B.95DD1C10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is to inquire if anyone has any recent experience, thoughts or = information on high (relatively speaking:-) thermal performance concrete = masonry unit (CMU) walls. As a recent subscriber to this list I = searched the archives and read some postings from Nov 1996. I apologize = if the topic has been discussed here more recently and would welcome = comments off-list if that is the case. Load bearing CMU construction meets the program requirements for the = building in question extremely well...except for thermal performance. = The project is a large 3 story residence but with generally commercial = construction and aesthetics located on an island with frequent power = outages in the Pacific Northwest. Composite concrete and steel floors = with in-floor radiant heating supplied by a large high temperature = wood/waste oil water-jacketed boiler and supplemented with extensive = south glazing is intended to enable off grid heating...so high thermal = performance of the envelope is important. Fine Homebuilding published an article in Dec 94 / Jan 95 (p.66-69) = about a single story house constructed with two wythes of 6" CMU with 2" = of isocyanurate insulation in the cavity between them and the cores = filled with vermiculite. An R-value of "about" 22 was reckoned. The = CMU was sand blasted and left exposed as the exterior and interior = finishes. This wall configuration offers advantages of fire resistance = and having the insulation encapsulated by the masonry...but the expense = and difficulties of building...in effect...two walls is a significant = drawback. I have looked at the Integra block system but its use in multi-story = buildings, especially in our seismic zone (3), is limited and = questionable. Use of the Integra block would significantly add to the = embodied cost since it is not produced locally. In addition, since the = webs of the Integra blocks are minimal to reduce thermal bridging, = apparently the blocks do not hold their shape well during = manufacture...which is not much of a problem when finished with rough = stucco as in the southwest where it is predominantly used...but I am = looking for the exposed CMU to be the finished surfaces for maintenance = and aesthetic reasons. Despite the cost, the double wall seems to be the best (or only) option = which meets the program. Structural demands (due to the multi-story = configuration) require an 8" block (for adequate core space for vertical = reinforcement) so at this point I am planning to use an 8" Hi-R or = similar block with 4" block as an exterior veneer with 2" of rigid = insulation in the cavity which should give an R value in the low to mid = 20's. Any comments, thoughts and/or pointers to other possible products or = solutions will be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Russel DeLombard (rus_d@ix.netcom.com) ------=_NextPart_000_0085_01BE405B.95DD1C10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is to inquire if anyone=20 has any recent experience, thoughts or information on high (relatively=20 speaking:-) thermal performance concrete masonry unit (CMU) walls.  = As a=20 recent subscriber to this list I searched the archives and read some = postings=20 from Nov 1996.  I apologize if the topic has been discussed here = more=20 recently and would welcome comments off-list if that is the=20 case.
 
Load bearing CMU construction meets = the program=20 requirements for the building in question extremely well...except for = thermal=20 performance.  The project is a large 3 story residence but with = generally=20 commercial construction and aesthetics located on an island with = frequent power=20 outages in the Pacific Northwest.  Composite concrete and steel = floors with=20 in-floor radiant heating supplied by a large high temperature wood/waste = oil=20 water-jacketed boiler and supplemented with extensive south glazing is = intended=20 to enable off grid heating...so high thermal performance of the envelope = is=20 important.
 
Fine Homebuilding published an article in Dec 94 / = Jan 95=20 (p.66-69) about a single story house constructed with two wythes of = 6" CMU=20 with 2" of isocyanurate insulation in the cavity between them and = the cores=20 filled with vermiculite.  An R-value of "about" 22 was=20 reckoned.  The CMU was sand blasted and left exposed as the = exterior and=20 interior finishes.  This wall configuration offers advantages of = fire=20 resistance and having the insulation encapsulated by the masonry...but = the=20 expense and difficulties of building...in effect...two walls is a = significant=20 drawback.
 
I have looked at the Integra block system but its = use in=20 multi-story buildings, especially in our seismic zone (3), is limited = and=20 questionable.  Use of the Integra block would significantly add to = the=20 embodied cost since it is not produced locally.  In addition, since = the=20 webs of the Integra blocks are minimal to reduce thermal bridging, = apparently=20 the blocks do not hold their shape well during manufacture...which is = not much=20 of a problem when finished with rough stucco as in the southwest where = it is=20 predominantly used...but I am looking for the exposed CMU to be the = finished=20 surfaces for maintenance and aesthetic reasons.
 
Despite the cost, the double wall seems to be the = best (or=20 only) option which meets the program.  Structural demands (due to = the=20 multi-story configuration) require an 8" block (for adequate core = space for=20 vertical reinforcement) so at this point I am planning to use an 8" = Hi-R or=20 similar block with 4" block as an exterior veneer with 2" of = rigid=20 insulation in the cavity which should give an R value in the low to mid=20 20's.
 
Any comments, thoughts and/or pointers to other = possible=20 products or solutions will be appreciated.  Thanks in=20 advance.
 
Russel DeLombard (rus_d@ix.netcom.com)
=
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0085_01BE405B.95DD1C10-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 15 12:15:30 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09224 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:15:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24997; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:10:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:04:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24370 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:04:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24366 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:04:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id DYZ476VS; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:05:29 EST To: FUnger@AOL.COM, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:33:30 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Windows: What really matters Message-ID: <19990115.121137.8958.5.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <1e911144.369d4b6b@aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-9 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5781 Fred, You mentioned the big boys (Pella et al). I am curious if you have any comments on Hurd? Thanks.. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 15 12:16:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09233 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24995; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:10:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:05:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24381 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:04:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24377 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:04:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id DYZ476UN; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:05:29 EST To: msheffer@cyberia.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 10:26:40 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Community Environmental Indicators Message-ID: <19990115.121137.8958.4.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <3.0.3.32.19990113171307.006a7f58@cyberia.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4,6-13 From: environs.com@juno.com (Beverly A. Weiter) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5782 Marcus, Having just gotten back from Colorado this week, two other areas seemed to be in glaring need of study, just based on my "woman on the street" observations: 1. water usage and impending shortages 2. air quality as impacted by the burning of wood in fireplaces. Don't know if these fit with your project. Merely a suggestion. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 15 12:36:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09594 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:36:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26780; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:30:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:25:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26214 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:25:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26195 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:25:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-0-104.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.0.104]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA00309 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:26:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <369F7C38.C59495F4@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:34:48 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: CADD Question #2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5783 Hi All, I would like to thank everyone for there CADD system suggestions. I have downloaded, MiniCAD, TurboCAD, DataCAD, Chief Architect. I am going through the demo/tutorials for all of them. I have also ordered the CD's for AutoCAD R14 and the Architecture Desktop (S8 Softdesk which includes something called Auto-Architect). I now understand that particularily with AutoCAD, the way you work depends on add-ons. So my question is this: Any suggested Add-ons to AutoCAD. My working style is: I like the quick mock-up technique then refine later. I am mostly interested in residential or residential support structures. I don't have much architectural drafting experience (at the beginning of the curve, and I'm going to take a intro arch drafting course starting next tuesday. They don't use software.) Again, any suggestions would be great, so far the suggestions have been really helpful. Thanks for all the help, Neil -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 15 13:21:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA10324 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA29529; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:15:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:09:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA29029 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:09:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29018 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:09:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA13885; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:10:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA11760; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:10:24 -0500 Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 13:10:23 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Russel DeLombard Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Thermal performance/CMU walls In-Reply-To: <008801be405b$97210dc0$0c2adccf@upesi> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5784 Dear Russel, I appreciate that most of your concerns are structural and product oriented, and it appears as though you've got a grip of things, but... To clarify a few terms and points of interest: by "high thermal performance," it sounds like you're focusing mainly on high R-value, high heat retension, and good insulation for the heating season. In addition, you mention "extensive south glazing." If you are contemplating glazing over concrete for a Trombe Wall, reconsider that notion. If your glazing is part of a direct or indirect passive solar configuration, couple the insolation with the thermal mass and run some numbers on heat capacity and sensible temperature. There are, in addition, viable active solar energy options, as always. The words "off grid heating" have implications that usually do not apply to heating, but to electrical systems, being on or off the grid. Finally, this may sound like quibbling, but, you refer to "heating supplied by a large high temperature wood/waste oil water-jacketed boiler and SUPPLEMENTED with extensive south glazing..." I would stress the latter, but you are quite right, in emphasizing the importance of efficient thermal performance of the building envelope to maximize the south wall gain. However, if the building were to tend toward "super-insulation" and the best thermal performance, then the South facing solar opportunities would become the main source of heat for space heat, and, of course, hot water, too. The result would be the reversal of "main" heating and "supplementary" heating. As efficiency, thermal performance, and solar participation go up, the demand on "a large high temperature wood/waste oil water-jacketed boiler" goes down. The size and expense of what is traditionally the "main" heating plant goes down, too, from a budgeted line item of 5-8% of the construction cost, to something less; and the oil-fired boiler becomes more of an auxiliary form of heat energy, while the solar efficiency of your building becomes a primary energy resource. Good luck. Islands are great sites for eco-experimentation. Yours truly, Ross. On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Russel DeLombard wrote: > This is to inquire if anyone has any recent experience, thoughts or information on high (relatively speaking:-) thermal performance concrete masonry unit (CMU) walls. As a recent subscriber to this list I searched the archives and read some postings from Nov 1996. I apologize if the topic has been discussed here more recently and would welcome comments off-list if that is the case. > > Load bearing CMU construction meets the program requirements for the building in question extremely well...except for thermal performance. The project is a large 3 story residence but with generally commercial construction and aesthetics located on an island with frequent power outages in the Pacific Northwest. Composite concrete and steel floors with in-floor radiant heating supplied by a large high temperature wood/waste oil water-jacketed boiler and supplemented with extensive south glazing is intended to enable off grid heating...so high thermal performance of the envelope is important. > > Fine Homebuilding published an article in Dec 94 / Jan 95 (p.66-69) about a single story house constructed with two wythes of 6" CMU with 2" of isocyanurate insulation in the cavity between them and the cores filled with vermiculite. An R-value of "about" 22 was reckoned. The CMU was sand blasted and left exposed as the exterior and interior finishes. This wall configuration offers advantages of fire resistance and having the insulation encapsulated by the masonry...but the expense and difficulties of building...in effect...two walls is a significant drawback. > > I have looked at the Integra block system but its use in multi-story buildings, especially in our seismic zone (3), is limited and questionable. Use of the Integra block would significantly add to the embodied cost since it is not produced locally. In addition, since the webs of the Integra blocks are minimal to reduce thermal bridging, apparently the blocks do not hold their shape well during manufacture...which is not much of a problem when finished with rough stucco as in the southwest where it is predominantly used...but I am looking for the exposed CMU to be the finished surfaces for maintenance and aesthetic reasons. > > Despite the cost, the double wall seems to be the best (or only) option which meets the program. Structural demands (due to the multi-story configuration) require an 8" block (for adequate core space for vertical reinforcement) so at this point I am planning to use an 8" Hi-R or similar block with 4" block as an exterior veneer with 2" of rigid insulation in the cavity which should give an R value in the low to mid 20's. > > Any comments, thoughts and/or pointers to other possible products or solutions will be appreciated. Thanks in advance. > > Russel DeLombard (rus_d@ix.netcom.com) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 15 15:56:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA12923 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:56:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08680; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:51:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:46:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA08223 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:46:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA08219 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 15:45:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA29098 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:46:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-wa42-60.ix.netcom.com(207.220.45.188) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma029008; Fri Jan 15 14:45:49 1999 Message-ID: <007a01be4084$8a681410$bc2ddccf@upesi> From: "Russel DeLombard" To: Subject: GBlist: CADD Question #2 Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 12:42:37 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5785 On 15 Jan 1999 Neil Spiegel wrote: >...with AutoCAD, the way you work depends on add-ons. So my question is this: Any suggested Add-ons to AutoCAD.... > ...I don't have much architectural drafting experience... Neil, AutoCAD is a powerful and complex CAD 2D drafting and 3D modeling engine used for just about anything...from architectural design to virtually any type of engineering. For straight forward residential design and drafting it is probably overkill. The "Add-ons" are used to help automate and focus AutoCAD on specific disciplines. More often than not, rather than simplifying AutoCAD, they add their own layers of complexity and learning requirements. The other programs, like DataCAD and Chief Architect, which are tailored to the industry are probably more appropriate...especially if you have limited drafting experience. The hardware demands of AutoCAD (as well as other high end CAD programs) is another consideration vis a vis cost and learning. For example AutoCAD will "run" on Windows 95 but really only performs well on Windows NT. I would suggest that you focus on the output you are looking for...such as permit and construction drawings for houses...how you are going to get those into hard copy...and then base your evaluations on that. If you are still adamant about AutoCAD, and if you do not plan to do any 3D modeling, AutoCAD LT and IntelliCAD by Visio are worth considering since they are somewhat less demanding and much less expensive. IntelliCAD is especially interesting in that it now supports the .DWG file format and can be used to open and save drawings in what has become the defacto standard AutoCAD drawing file format. This has significant implications for sharing files with others and plotting by service bureaus. The 3rd party "Add-on" which I use with AutoCAD is called ArchT and was recently purchased by Visio and will soon be able to work with IntelliCAD as well. Information on both can be found at http://www.archt.com a web site of Ketiv, the original developer of ArchT. I hope all this helps. Russel DeLombard (rus_d@ix.netcom.com) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 15 16:33:55 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA13615 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:33:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11249; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:28:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:23:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA10611 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:23:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10607 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:23:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5 [134.117.136.25]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id QAA14598; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:23:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id QAA18653; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:23:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:23:22 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901152123.QAA18653@freenet5.carleton.ca> From: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re:Thermotech Windows Website Reply-To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5786 Some WiseGuy at EBN corrected Stephen and wrote: > CMHC = Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation Hello EBN NitPickers; Not all that long ago, one would find: "Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation" printed on CMHC publications and stationery. To further add to the fun, nous sommes bilingue eh ? ...so officially, CMHC is : "CMHC/SCHL" where the SCHL in the above is: "Societe canadienne d'hypotheques et de logement" And if one were to contact CMHC/SCHL for copies of a report, one would write to: "CHIC @cmhc-schl.gc.ca" Where "CHIC" is the Canadian Housing Information Centre at the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp.... or would that be the Canada Housing Info Corp at Central Mortgage and Housing Centre ??? --- * --- So you see, Stephen's little error in calling CMHC the "Canadian MHC" was perfectly reasonable. In fact, I suspect that such confusion is one of the intended consequences of the naming strategy that our government employs in order to minimise incidences of pesky citizens (and anglophones in particular) trying to make contact with them. ---------- * ---------- Rob_Tom @ ncf.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 15 18:10:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA15310 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:10:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17853; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:05:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:00:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA17392 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17388 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:00:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.110] (rkd086.acadia.net [208.244.128.110]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA27582 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:01:15 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:00:05 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Windows - What Really Matters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5787 I've been following the window discussion with interest. Yes, we want efficient, reliable, affordable windows, made of benign materials. We want to avoid organochlorines and other endocrine disruptors, and heavy metals. Yes, we need to satisfy our customers, maintain good business relationships with reliable, time-tested companies. Yes. But for me, what really matters is that we're using windows to make places fit for human beings. Windows in just the right spot, perhaps with a seat, and a pleasing view.., where you feel at home curling up with a book or having a cup of tea. I'm writing about this because most of the discussion on list seems to be about materials and techniques, but very little about the living qualities needed in sustainable built environments. I think we've touched on some aspects, such as zoning, minimum lot size and sprawl, but reading most of the postings, one would think that environmental building is mainly concerned with technically-proficient deployment of the right kind of stuff. Lots of know-how, but not a lot of know-why. Speireag got me thinking about this. He doesn't want to use a generator because doing so will shatter the serenity of the countryside where he lives. Exactly. The technical has to acknowledge the spiritual. Speireag - cut your electricity use as low as you can, and use the batteries for backup. You treasure silence - configure your stuff accordingly. I think it would be hard to discuss what I mean in an email forum, without getting sucked into a vortex of feel-good talk and mumbo-jumbo. For example: do you know that it's possible (although very, very hard) to make a building which makes you feel the way you do when a loved one smiles at you, or when a child holds your hand? That you have the power within you to make a place that you could love as much as standing in a meadow of flowers? See what I mean? Just writing about it sounds silly, but that quality of space is as real as anything we discuss in this group. I just want to remind folks - without that quality, we will NOT achieve a sustainable built environment. Thanks for letting me rant. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 15 18:47:36 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA16316 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:47:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19655; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:42:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:37:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA19184 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:37:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA19180 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:37:21 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 9TDJa03472; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:36:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6487a390.369fd0f0@aol.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 18:36:16 EST To: environs.com@juno.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Windows: What really matters Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5788 Beverly, I used Hurd on several jobs for their Heat Mirror glass. A friend of mine owns the company that distributes them locally and I helped him with marketing for a while. These days, I regret that involvement somewhat. Their millwork, weatherstripping, detailing, etc. don't seem real impressive. I tried to convince myself that the glazing option made these other shortcomings worth dealing with. They are priced with the higher cost competitors but seem more comparable to the low cost units technically. I used to think that saving energy with Heat Mirror was worth the difference. My most recent involvement with them is a customer from about six years ago called just last week saying that several of his windows are seal failed and the sliding door is falling apart. This isn't the only time I've gotten those calls on Hurd. What is the net energy/environmental cost of having to replace all those units every few years? More than the heat mirror glass saves I'll bet. Windows and doors are definitely not a place to cut corners in a house. I'm still looking for the perfect window. Despite my reluctance to jump back in the fire, I'll be eager to make a long term commitment when I find the right company. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 15 20:58:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA17761 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:58:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA24540; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:53:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:47:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA24199 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:46:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA24195 for ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 20:46:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.31]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3104400 ; Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:46:02 -0800 Message-ID: <369FEF73.627B186C@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 17:46:27 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Russel DeLombard CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Thermal performance and CMU walls References: <008801be405b$97210dc0$0c2adccf@upesi> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B0621C2DA19060BF42AB4175" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5789 --------------B0621C2DA19060BF42AB4175 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PNW seismic requirements require a substantial course fill (with reinf.) enough I found to make both the vermiculite or perlite fill not a great contribution for the effort and cost and it does settle dramatically - so I think that realistically the core insulation should be calculated to provide full insulation value, more like 3-4". This thickness in eps foam would provide vapour protection and would be less expensive than isocyanurate. The amount of area filled for reinforcement also made me wonder if the CMU were anything more than expensive formwork. I personally think there are better alternatives here but it sounds like block is being chosen for aesthetics and is the exposed surface both in the interior and exterior? welcome to the list best John Russel DeLombard wrote: > This is to inquire if anyone has any recent experience, thoughts or > information on high (relatively speaking:-) thermal performance > concrete masonry unit (CMU) walls. As a recent subscriber to this > list I searched the archives and read some postings from Nov 1996. I > apologize if the topic has been discussed here more recently and would > welcome comments off-list if that is the case. Load bearing CMU > construction meets the program requirements for the building in > question extremely well...except for thermal performance. The project > is a large 3 story residence but with generally commercial > construction and aesthetics located on an island with frequent power > outages in the Pacific Northwest. Composite concrete and steel floors > with in-floor radiant heating supplied by a large high temperature > wood/waste oil water-jacketed boiler and supplemented with extensive > south glazing is intended to enable off grid heating...so high thermal > performance of the envelope is important. Fine Homebuilding published > an article in Dec 94 / Jan 95 (p.66-69) about a single story house > constructed with two wythes of 6" CMU with 2" of isocyanurate > insulation in the cavity between them and the cores filled with > vermiculite. An R-value of "about" 22 was reckoned. The CMU was sand > blasted and left exposed as the exterior and interior finishes. This > wall configuration offers advantages of fire resistance and having the > insulation encapsulated by the masonry...but the expense and > difficulties of building...in effect...two walls is a significant > drawback. I have looked at the Integra block system but its use in > multi-story buildings, especially in our seismic zone (3), is limited > and questionable. Use of the Integra block would significantly add to > the embodied cost since it is not produced locally. In addition, > since the webs of the Integra blocks are minimal to reduce thermal > bridging, apparently the blocks do not hold their shape well during > manufacture...which is not much of a problem when finished with rough > stucco as in the southwest where it is predominantly used...but I am > looking for the exposed CMU to be the finished surfaces for > maintenance and aesthetic reasons. Despite the cost, the double wall > seems to be the best (or only) option which meets the program. > Structural demands (due to the multi-story configuration) require an > 8" block (for adequate core space for vertical reinforcement) so at > this point I am planning to use an 8" Hi-R or similar block with 4" > block as an exterior veneer with 2" of rigid insulation in the cavity > which should give an R value in the low to mid 20's. Any comments, > thoughts and/or pointers to other possible products or solutions will > be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Russel DeLombard > (rus_d@ix.netcom.com) --------------B0621C2DA19060BF42AB4175 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PNW seismic requirements require a substantial course fill (with reinf.) enough I found to make both the vermiculite or perlite fill not a great contribution for the effort and cost and it does settle dramatically - so I think that realistically the core insulation should be calculated to provide full insulation value, more like 3-4". This thickness in eps foam would provide vapour protection and would be less expensive than isocyanurate.
The amount of area filled for reinforcement also made me wonder if the CMU were anything more than expensive formwork. I personally think there are better alternatives here but it sounds like block is being chosen for aesthetics and is the exposed surface both in the interior and exterior?

welcome to the list
best
John

Russel DeLombard wrote:

 This is to inquire if anyone has any recent experience, thoughts or information on high (relatively speaking:-) thermal performance concrete masonry unit (CMU) walls.  As a recent subscriber to this list I searched the archives and read some postings from Nov 1996.  I apologize if the topic has been discussed here more recently and would welcome comments off-list if that is the case. Load bearing CMU construction meets the program requirements for the building in question extremely well...except for thermal performance.  The project is a large 3 story residence but with generally commercial construction and aesthetics located on an island with frequent power outages in the Pacific Northwest.  Composite concrete and steel floors with in-floor radiant heating supplied by a large high temperature wood/waste oil water-jacketed boiler and supplemented with extensive south glazing is intended to enable off grid heating...so high thermal performance of the envelope is important. Fine Homebuilding published an article in Dec 94 / Jan 95 (p.66-69) about a single story house constructed with two wythes of 6" CMU with 2" of isocyanurate insulation in the cavity between them and the cores filled with vermiculite.  An R-value of "about" 22 was reckoned.  The CMU was sand blasted and left exposed as the exterior and interior finishes.  This wall configuration offers advantages of fire resistance and having the insulation encapsulated by the masonry...but the expense and difficulties of building...in effect...two walls is a significant drawback. I have looked at the Integra block system but its use in multi-story buildings, especially in our seismic zone (3), is limited and questionable.  Use of the Integra block would significantly add to the embodied cost since it is not produced locally.  In addition, since the webs of the Integra blocks are minimal to reduce thermal bridging, apparently the blocks do not hold their shape well during manufacture...which is not much of a problem when finished with rough stucco as in the southwest where it is predominantly used...but I am looking for the exposed CMU to be the finished surfaces for maintenance and aesthetic reasons. Despite the cost, the double wall seems to be the best (or only) option which meets the program.  Structural demands (due to the multi-story configuration) require an 8" block (for adequate core space for vertical reinforcement) so at this point I am planning to use an 8" Hi-R or similar block with 4" block as an exterior veneer with 2" of rigid insulation in the cavity which should give an R value in the low to mid 20's. Any comments, thoughts and/or pointers to other possible products or solutions will be appreciated.  Thanks in advance. Russel DeLombard (rus_d@ix.netcom.com)        
--------------B0621C2DA19060BF42AB4175-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 05:18:17 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA21936 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 05:18:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA08804; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 05:13:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 05:08:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA08508 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 05:07:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA08504 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 05:07:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-48.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.48]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 04:49:22 -0500 Message-ID: <36A09042.4A1C@cyberzone.net> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 05:12:34 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: CADD Question #2 References: <369F7C38.C59495F4@atlasinc.on.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5790 > I have also ordered the CD's for AutoCAD R14 and the Architecture Desktop (S8 Softdesk > which includes something called Auto-Architect). > > I now understand that particularily with AutoCAD, the way you work depends on add-ons. > > So my question is this: Any suggested Add-ons to AutoCAD. Neil, S8 is an add-on to Autocad, and it's expensive enough that you don't want any others! We use Autocad with S7 (the previous version) and it has lots of graphic and drafting tools that make life easier. Symbol libraries, with drafting symbols, furniture and the like. Also, automated routines for creating walls, doors, etc.(and I don't know how many people really ude these routines.) Supposedly you can then export all this data for things like cost estimating. I probably use 10% of the program's capabilities, and no doubt I'd be a better architect and overall human being for knowing more. However, there is life outside of computer expertise, contrary to what some will tell us, and I do manage to survive! For your purposes, I'd give the other programs a serious run for the money first. Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 05:48:36 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA22040 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 05:48:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA09471; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 05:43:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 05:38:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA09221 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 05:38:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA09217 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 05:38:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-48.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.48]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 05:20:00 -0500 Message-ID: <36A09771.2831@cyberzone.net> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 05:43:13 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Metal or Fiberglass ductwork? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5791 Has anyone looked at the pros and cons of ductwork, esp. in a residential setting? Metal duct is recyclable in the long term, but still has to be insulated with (presumably) fiberglass and a vapor barrier, and we've discussed fiberglass in the past. Fiberglass duct, is, well, fiberglass. Knowing almost nothing about these ducts, is there an issue of fiberglass bits getting in the airstream? Are there thermal or air-sealing issues separating the two types? Typically, metal supply ducts are insulated and returns are not. With fiberglass ducts, is there an overall system benefit since all the ducts are insulated? Any other issues that come to mind are also appreciated. Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 08:48:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA23661 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:48:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13945; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:43:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:38:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA13660 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:38:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA13656 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:38:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-13-111.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.130.111]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA26652; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:39:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:43:02 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE412C.3A7894E0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'dpharazim@cyberzone.net'" , greenbuilding Subject: RE: GBlist: Metal or Fiberglass ductwork? Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:42:51 -0500 Organization: Building Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5792 On Saturday, January 16, 1999 8:43 AM, Dan and Pam [SMTP:dpharazim@cyberzone.net] wrote: > Has anyone looked at the pros and cons of ductwork, esp. in a > residential setting? Metal duct is recyclable in the long term, but > still has to be insulated with (presumably) fiberglass and a vapor > Any other issues that come to mind are also appreciated. Oh my God. Do NOT put duct work outside of the building enclosure! The cost in air leakage moisture probems and energy costs, indoor air quality, etc. is simply not worth it. Until I started see such houses in the states I had not thought anyone would do this. Now, wiser and more experienced, I simply think this is the craziest idea going in home building. Simple, leaky, metal duct INSIDE the building enclosure is what is called for in energy efficient and good performance houses. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 09:19:53 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23872 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15269; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:14:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:09:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14651 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:09:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14644 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:09:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-145-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.145]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA14287; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:10:15 -0500 Message-ID: <36A09DBE.89FB4355@together.net> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:10:06 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Metal or Fiberglass ductwork? References: <36A09771.2831@cyberzone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5793 Fiberglass duct is lightweight, economical, very quick to install, provides good thermal qualities and is far superior to metal ducts for sound attenuation. However, I personally would NOT specify fiberglass duct or even metal duct with UL approved fiberglass liner for any of my clients nor would I consider installing it in my own home. In spite of assurances by manufacturers to the contrary, I remain concerned about long-term erosion of particulate and he consequences of the fiberglass becoming damp. Damp fiberglass creates a problem of supporting growth of undesirable organisms... a hot issue these days in commercial IAQ issues. I have only seen fiberglass duct in residential applications, having never come across it nor heard of any commercial mechanical contractors installing it, in my region (Northern New England, US). You can be sure if there was a viable, economical reason to use it, the mechanical contractors would jump on it... something not happening in my observations. Tom Anderson Dan and Pam wrote: > Has anyone looked at the pros and cons of ductwork, esp. in a > residential setting? Metal duct is recyclable in the long term, but > still has to be insulated with (presumably) fiberglass and a vapor > barrier, and we've discussed fiberglass in the past. Fiberglass duct, > is, well, fiberglass. Knowing almost nothing about these ducts, is > there an issue of fiberglass bits getting in the airstream? Are there > thermal or air-sealing issues separating the two types? Typically, > metal supply ducts are insulated and returns are not. With fiberglass > ducts, is there an overall system benefit since all the ducts are > insulated? > Any other issues that come to mind are also appreciated. > Regards, > Dan Harazim > Canterbury, CT > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 09:35:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23951 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:35:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15974; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:30:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:25:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15658 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:25:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15654 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:25:17 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ072867; Sat, 16 Jan 99 07:25:56 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA70152; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 07:25:42 -0700 Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 07:25:41 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Dwight Holmes Cc: healthy@bloomington.in.us, ledbalon , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: bathroom venting - outside vent caps In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5794 Dwight: In answer to your request for contact info on Heartland, you can contact Kevin Clyde, 1 800 437-4780. Jorg Ostrowski ________________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Dwight Holmes wrote: > > John or Mike, > > Could you provide contact information for the Heartland Products, Inc. vent > caps? > > Thank you, > > Dwight Holmes > EBN > > At 9:30 AM +0000 1/13/99, John Bower wrote: > >I've used the Heartland vent caps several times and like them. They seem > >to seal well, and they're easy to clean. > >-- > >John Bower, The Healthy House Institute > >http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us > >430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 > >Phone/fax 812-332-5073 > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > -- > Dwight Holmes -- Product Editor -- Environmental Building News > dwight@ebuild.com -- (802) 257-7300 -- 122 Birge St. Brattleboro, VT > 05301 > Visit us on the web at www.ebuild.com > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 10:31:55 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24318 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:31:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17753; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:26:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:19:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17387 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:19:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (kfAXjYs4sx7dzstKo6yR8Cf9wj9qD4rJ@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17381 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:19:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (4Wa4bLBGDowMDtLJuSl02ViSR66OFT2P@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA07516; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:20:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA23767; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:20:36 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36A0AE30.D82144D1@gs.net> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:20:16 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Metal or Fiberglass ductwork? References: <36A09771.2831@cyberzone.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------FE406AA430BD4AF76D9AF5E3" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5795 --------------FE406AA430BD4AF76D9AF5E3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan Have cut my hands on enough metal duct. Have retaped duct board. Pulled a bunch of insulated flex duct. Each has a place. So here I go again putting in my two cents. Coming off of a HVAC unit I always use a metal plenumn. This is the box that comes directly off of the heater so I like to make sure I have something good to attach to. Duct board is great for quick dirty and cheap. But as you say it is fiberglass. Basically the same as what one would find as a backer to suspended ceiling tiles. It is a pretty good product but rather susceptible to damage and with age the tape seal where you join it can give way. (hence my comment about repairs). For real ease of use I like the flex duct. Get the kind with the aluminum shielding on the outside of it rather than the mylar. I say this because it helps to keep it from absorbing radiant heat in an attic space. The insulation (fiber glass) is located between this outer shell and the inner shell so there is no problem with flying particles.. Once again this inner shell is made of some sort of plastic. I do not know what it is, but it does seem to be stable. For longevity metal is still the way to go. After all it is sheet metal and does not really go anywhere. I have seen it insulated on the inside and the outside. Most of the time I see round duct insulated on the outside. So IT Is Clean of any insulation particles that might be of concern. This also means that it easier to have cleaned if you need duct cleaning. Square duct is usually insulated on the inside since the insulation bats are glued inside as they are manufactured. Though once again you can get uninsulated ducting and lay a blanket of insulation around them during installation or leave them exposed if you wish. Variety is the spice. :) Round duct just fits end to end into each proceeding piece. Zip in a couple of screws tape the joint and onto the next. Square is a bit different. It is splined together and tapping is optional.( I like to tape the joints, but that is me) SteveP Dan and Pam wrote: > Has anyone looked at the pros and cons of ductwork, esp. in a > residential setting? Metal duct is recyclable in the long term, but > still has to be insulated with (presumably) fiberglass and a vapor > barrier, and we've discussed fiberglass in the past. Fiberglass duct, > is, well, fiberglass. Knowing almost nothing about these ducts, is > there an issue of fiberglass bits getting in the airstream? Are there > thermal or air-sealing issues separating the two types? Typically, > metal supply ducts are insulated and returns are not. With fiberglass > ducts, is there an overall system benefit since all the ducts are > insulated? > Any other issues that come to mind are also appreciated. > Regards, > Dan Harazim > Canterbury, CT > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ --------------FE406AA430BD4AF76D9AF5E3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dan

Have cut my hands on enough metal duct.  Have retaped duct board. Pulled a bunch of insulated flex duct. Each has a place. So here I go again putting in my two cents. Coming off of a HVAC unit I always use a metal plenumn. This is the box that comes directly off of the heater so I like to make sure I have something good to attach to.  Duct board is great for quick dirty and cheap. But as you say it is fiberglass. Basically the same as what one would find as a backer to suspended ceiling tiles. It is a pretty good product but rather susceptible to damage and with age the tape seal where you join it can give way. (hence my comment about repairs).

For real ease of use I like the flex duct. Get the kind with the aluminum shielding on the outside of it rather than the mylar. I say this because it helps to keep it from absorbing radiant heat in an attic space. The insulation (fiber glass) is located between this outer shell and the inner shell so there is no problem with flying particles.. Once again this inner shell is made of some sort of plastic. I do not know what it is, but it does seem to be stable.

For longevity metal is still the way to go. After all it is sheet metal and does not really go anywhere. I have seen it insulated on the inside and the outside. Most of the time I see round duct insulated on the outside. So IT  Is Clean of any insulation particles that might be of concern. This also means that it easier to have cleaned if you need duct cleaning.  Square duct is usually insulated on the inside since the insulation bats are glued inside as they are manufactured. Though once again you can get uninsulated ducting and lay a blanket of insulation around them during installation or leave them exposed if you wish. Variety is the spice.  :)

Round duct just fits end to end into each proceeding piece. Zip in a couple of screws tape the joint and onto the next.  Square is a bit different. It is splined together and tapping is optional.( I like to tape the joints, but that is me)

SteveP
 

Dan and Pam wrote:

Has anyone looked at the pros and cons of ductwork, esp. in a
residential setting?  Metal duct is recyclable in the long term, but
still has to be insulated with (presumably) fiberglass and a vapor
barrier, and we've discussed fiberglass in the past.  Fiberglass duct,
is, well, fiberglass.  Knowing almost nothing about these ducts, is
there an issue of fiberglass bits getting in the airstream?  Are there
thermal or air-sealing issues separating the two types?  Typically,
metal supply ducts are insulated and returns are not.  With fiberglass
ducts, is there an overall system benefit since all the ducts are
insulated?
Any other issues that come to mind are also appreciated.
Regards,
Dan Harazim
Canterbury, CT
______________________________________________________________________
This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST <www.crest.org>
Environmental Building News <www.ebuild.com> and Oikos <www.oikos.com>
For  instructions send  e-mail to  greenbuilding-request@crest.org.
______________________________________________________________________
--------------FE406AA430BD4AF76D9AF5E3-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 10:40:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24387 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:40:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18347; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:35:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:29:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17828 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:29:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17822 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:29:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from sover.net (pm0a30.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.158]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA11817 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:30:19 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) sover.net from pm0a30.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.158] 209.198.93.158 Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:30:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36A0B179.165A670B@sover.net> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:34:18 -0500 From: Cindy Blakeslee Organization: The Center for Sustainble Building (Vermont) dba Residuum X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: [Fwd: GBlist: PVC] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5796 I'm forwarding this message to those on the list server who might want more info about pvc alternatives -- I don't know if they are on the market yet but the fellows mentioned below will know. Cindy Blakeslee wrote: > Hi. I believe that the fellow who spoke to this is a staff member at > the Univeristy of Massachusetts at Lowell -- Stephen McCarthy at the > Center for Plastics Innovation. The phone number for the center is > 978/934-3296. Joel Tickner was the coordinator of the conference -- his > email is ticknerj@woods.uml.edu. > > Hope this helps... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 10:43:38 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24409 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:43:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18510; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:38:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:32:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18011 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:31:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (2I+d3uggORw0b4qKM+S/VJU1oMBDbt5i@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18003 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:31:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (9rfGWS5EY3h2Zu54PcpAc+TIaCefczeh@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA08051; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:32:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA24094; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:32:54 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36A0B112.7BE1A699@gs.net> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 09:32:34 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Shapiro CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Windows References: <3.0.6.32.19990114140941.007e42f0@pop.together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5797 Just a shot at storm windows. They do not have any real advantage as far as insulation. They are there to protect the main sash from STORM DAMAGE....Still they are better than nothing. Steve P Andy Shapiro wrote: > I can't resist the window conversation. A couple of years ago we completed > a field study of energy efficiency of existing residential double hung wood > windows and windows that had been treated, with treatments ranging from > caulking the top sash closed and adding camlocks for the bottom sash and > rehabbing the storm, to complete replacement, and many treatemtns in > between. Brad James, then a grad student, did air leakage measurements on > about 150 windows. We calculated other heating loads. We looked only at > heating. The short version of the story is that you can't justify the > expense of replacing sash on energy considerations alone (unless the window > is really a dog.) Other considerations include operability, maintenance, > egress, lead abatement esthetics and historic preservation. Once you do > decide on a course of action, though, the marginal cost of energy > efficiency features can have a decent rate of return, not to mention > comfort issues or life-on-the-planet preservation issues. > > Rehabbing the existing sash, including installing some type of > weatherstripping and adding a low-e storm and perhaps sealing the top sash, > should be considered in your mix of possibilities if your sash aren't shot. > The interior storms we tested had the added benefit of reducing the air > leakage that came through the window pulley weight cavities and other > non-sash leakage areas. Another advantage in clod climates of interior > storms is that the inner window (if it's a decent interior storm) is > tighter than the outer, so the space between is preferentially filled with > drier outside air, for less condensation. In Vermont, a new exterior storm > on an old leaky window can be covered with ice for much of the winter. The > full report or a summary can be had from the National Center for > Preservation Technology and Training, who funded the study. Try > ncptt@alpha.nsula.edu. > > On a library where we had historic windows and an elderly librarian who sat > next to a very large double-hung window, we added a low-e storm panel on > each sash and a low-e interior storm. (The weatherstripping was already > OK.) The performance approaches that of superwindows and this treatment > keeps the historic material and historic look. > > By the way, Accurate Dorwin (888-982-4640) is one of Thermotech's > (613-225-1101) competitors and also should be on your bid-list for > fiberglass windows. I am a big fan of both of these windows. > > Andy Shapiro > Energy Balance Inc > Montpelier VT USA > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 11:20:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24674 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:20:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20396; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:14:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:09:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA19965 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:09:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19947 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:09:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA03363; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:09:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA06015; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:09:51 -0500 Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:09:51 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Dan and Pam Cc: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Metal or Fiberglass ductwork? In-Reply-To: <36A09771.2831@cyberzone.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5798 Fiberglas gets into the air stream. If you look at these ducts, after years of use, the inside is worn away by the air flow. This is a horror and should be illegal. If anyone installs or promotes this product, they ought be considered guilty of criminal neglect. On Sat, 16 Jan 1999, Dan and Pam wrote: > Has anyone looked at the pros and cons of ductwork, esp. in a > residential setting? Metal duct is recyclable in the long term, but > still has to be insulated with (presumably) fiberglass and a vapor > barrier, and we've discussed fiberglass in the past. Fiberglass duct, > is, well, fiberglass. Knowing almost nothing about these ducts, is > there an issue of fiberglass bits getting in the airstream? Are there > thermal or air-sealing issues separating the two types? Typically, > metal supply ducts are insulated and returns are not. With fiberglass > ducts, is there an overall system benefit since all the ducts are > insulated? > Any other issues that come to mind are also appreciated. > Regards, > Dan Harazim > Canterbury, CT > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 11:28:59 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24726 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:28:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20898; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:23:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:18:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA20520 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:18:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA20513 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:18:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA01113; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:18:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from vna-va18-34.ix.netcom.com(207.223.180.98) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma001101; Sat Jan 16 10:18:19 1999 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990116111553.006f5bf8@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:15:55 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Thermal performance and CMU walls Cc: cbisinc@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5799 To: Russel DeLombard 1/16/99 cc: David Nickerson, P.E.; CBIS Inc. Subject: Thermal performance and CMU walls (Green Building List) Suggest you check out: CBIS Inc. ---- ---- and review the technical information on pre-insulated CMU walls there. To my knowledge CBIS (Concrete Block Insulating Systems) a subsidiary of WR Grace located in Massachusetts, has the most complete array of thermal test data supporting their R-value claims. I have been retained by CBISINC, among other engineering analysts, to examine their test data on some of their product line. In particular I have been impressed by the performance of the "Korfil HI-R" system, which can be erected as a reinforced load bearing wall, while retaining very good comparative overall thermal performance values. Beware block wall "R" value claims that are only based on calculations, since the ASHRAE Technical Committee on Insulation and Moisture Retarders (TC-4.4) has indicated concerns exist with possible significant errors in such calculations, and especially with improper application of otherwise valid "thermal mass" correction factors in heat loss/gain analyses. Also, in the Pacific Northwest, CMU's may be obtained made with pumice aggregate which creates a lightweight block with nice architectural color. For aesthetics you could consider "split-face" or "split-ribbed" exposed surfaces in your design. This approach has been used in commercial buildings, and even in additions to metal buildings. You may have seen the recent trend in Kohls, Wal-mart, and other stores going with split-face block as well. Sure beats the look of traditional "cinder block" walls. Another source of information on CMU construction is the National Concrete Masonry Association (NCMA) located in Herndon (Dulles), VA USA ---- ---- They have a wide array of information on CMU thermal performance, "mass" data, and energy codes compliance info. Posted by: Bion Howard ----------------------------------------------------------- (you wrote in part...) >...the double wall seems to be the best (or only) option = >which meets the program. Structural demands (due to the multi-story = >configuration) require an 8" block (for adequate core space for vertical = >reinforcement) so at this point I am planning to use an 8" Hi-R or = >similar block with 4" block as an exterior veneer with 2" of rigid = >insulation in the cavity which should give an R value in the low to mid = >20's. > >Any comments, thoughts and/or pointers to other possible products or = >solutions will be appreciated. Thanks in advance. > >Russel DeLombard (rus_d@ix.netcom.com) ------------ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 12:02:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA25032 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:02:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA22372; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:57:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:52:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22051 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:52:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22047 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:52:33 -0500 (EST) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id VWROa03212; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:52:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:52:48 EST To: rnn@rnn.com, dpharazim@cyberzone.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Metal or Fiberglass ductwork? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5800 In a message dated 99-01-16 11:13:32 EST, rnn@rnn.com writes: << Fiberglas gets into the air stream. If you look at these ducts, after years of use, the inside is worn away by the air flow. This is a horror and should be illegal. If anyone installs or promotes this product, they ought be considered guilty of criminal neglect. >> What about the companies that sell homeowners a bill-o-goods about the health benefits of duct cleaning & use abrasive methods to clean these fiberglass ducts? Let's take them out back & shoot 'um ;c) Seriously tho...in our area of the country Fiberglass "duct-board" is used more often than not. It's my understanding that these ducts can not safely be cleaned. The long term problem is replacing ducts in a home with access only available through the drop downs (which is also very typical in our area) constitutes a major renovation & a real hassle for the home's occupant or owner. I dare say most homeowners given the knowledge & choice at initial construction would opt for metal ducts even in light of the added upfront expense, in the long run it's healthier for the occupants, more economical for the owner & greener for the planet. Just my 2¢ Regards, Cathy Flanders IAQ List Manager & Moderator Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq IAQ Listserve (to search archives) http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/iaq IAQ Job Line Bulletin Board http://disc.server.com/Indices/39418.html Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://www.fiscorp.net/iaq/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 13:22:26 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25773 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:22:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25404; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:17:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:12:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25055 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:12:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25051 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:12:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from joust.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@joust.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.86]) by donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id NAA10473 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:13:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (sucila@localhost) by joust.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with ESMTP id NAA02208 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:13:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:13:04 -0500 (EST) From: Sucila Fernandes X-Sender: sucila@joust.rs.itd.umich.edu To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: drywall recycling Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5801 I'm trying to find companies that will accept and recycle our drywall from a rennovation project. I'd prefer to work with companies in the midwest and northeast region. I'd also be willing to hear some other alternative solutions to this drywall waste. Thank You, Sucila Sucila Fernandes Dana Building 430 E. University (Rm:2004) Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1115 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 13:35:36 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25853 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26068; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:30:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:26:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25774 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:26:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25758 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.magma.ca (mail2x.magma.ca [206.191.0.220]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA04741; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:26:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (port24.magma.ca [206.191.5.24]) by mail2.magma.ca (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA02382; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:26:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901161826.NAA02382@mail2.magma.ca> X-Sender: stephen@mail.magma.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:13:23 -0500 To: John Salmen , Alex Wilson From: Stephen Thwaites Subject: Re: GBlist: Daptex Cc: AO , greenbuilding In-Reply-To: <369EE0EE.EA68B4A@cow-net.com> References: <369D822B.D5BFB71F@pop.pitt.edu> <369C9B5F.2DA3@cyberzone.net> <199901132351.SAA08090@mail2.magma.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5802 At 10:32 PM 1/14/99 -0800, John Salmen wrote: >The northern use of real adjectives has become unrestricted since free trade - >probably the only real benefit we've realized. A 'canadian' mortgage is probably an >extraneous use of the word but it does make me wonder who does own our mortgages. >Inadvertent use of adjectives however is definitely more common in capital regions >. . . or it might be the resin. > >John (a mortgaged canadian) Actually its due to the unrepentent use of urethane foam! Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ottawa Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 16:36:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA27284 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:36:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02209; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:23:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:18:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA01896 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:18:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu (eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.223]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01884 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:18:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin111.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.121]) by eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/) with SMTP id NAA28439; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:19:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36A101D9.140E@uidaho.edu> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 13:17:13 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sucila Fernandes CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: drywall recycling References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5803 Potential end-uses of scrap gypsum board include: new wallboard and soil amendment products (fertilizers and compost). It sounds as though your 'renovation' project will produce scraps that are not free of paint and/or other coatings. Your gypsum board demolition waste may not be acceptable by recyclers for this reason. Here in the Northwest there are several facilities including New West Gypsum (Tacoma), James Hardie Gypsum (Seattle), and Green Acres Gypsum (Spokane). Of course, transportation costs can be prohibitive. Based on a 1990 report sponsored by the Vermont Agency of Natural Resources, New England Gypsum Recyclers had plans for a facility, but un-built as of that report. The contact provided is Mike Czok (802)223-2608. Others from your area might have better information. Good luck, Kurt Rathmann 3 Little Pigs Design-Build Moscow, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 17:48:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA28070 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:48:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05454; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:43:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:38:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05107 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:38:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05100 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:38:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.43]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 2683900 ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:37:16 -0800 Message-ID: <36A114C5.5DF22C7B@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:37:57 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Thwaites CC: Alex Wilson , AO , greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Daptex References: <369D822B.D5BFB71F@pop.pitt.edu> <369C9B5F.2DA3@cyberzone.net> <199901132351.SAA08090@mail2.magma.ca> <199901161826.NAA02382@mail2.magma.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5804 Thanks for reminding me of what the thread was about, foam and daptex. My comments and doubts could be phrased as a question. Anyone have information, experience about ability of foamed latex to maintain its little cells over time/temp/moisture? We have been using polyurethane foams extensively in the past few years, especially as an alternative structural adhesive (product designed for that application). Eliminating the use of canned foams would be nice but generally requires a different approach to exterior wall assembly, better detailing around penetrations and better availability of gaskets. John Stephen Thwaites wrote: > Actually its due to the unrepentent use of urethane foam! > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 18:24:05 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA28343 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:24:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07070; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:19:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:14:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA06444 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:13:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06440 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:13:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.168] (ka3-168.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.168]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.9.1+DND/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA27605; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:14:50 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:42:32 -0500 To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley), Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Windows - What Really Matters Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id SAA06441 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5805 Sgrìobh David M. Foley: > I think it would be hard to discuss what I mean in an email forum, without > getting sucked into a vortex of feel-good talk and mumbo-jumbo. For > example: do you know that it's possible (although very, very hard) to make > a building which makes you feel the way you do when a loved one smiles at > you, or when a child holds your hand? That you have the power within you > to make a place that you could love as much as standing in a meadow of > flowers? > > See what I mean? Just writing about it sounds silly, but that quality of > space is as real as anything we discuss in this group. I just want to > remind folks - without that quality, we will NOT achieve a sustainable > built environment. Thanks for letting me rant. This stuff is very much worth talking about. Unfortunately, it's more difficult to do that here, because such things are (a) subjective, and (b) multi-sensory. It's much harder to describe such a situation and ask for advice on it than it is to describe a technical vapor-barrier situation and ask for advice. We should still try, though. Just because it's hard doesn't mean it's not worthwhile. Possibly the reverse, in fact. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 18:25:14 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA28350 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:25:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07293; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:20:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:15:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA06530 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:14:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06520 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:14:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.168] (ka3-168.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.168]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.9.1+DND/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA08010; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:15:43 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:24:48 -0500 To: CN , Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: windows and PVC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id SAA06523 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5806 Sgrìobh CN: > The items where a lot of PVC is used are things like vinyl windows, siding, > flooring, wallpaper, PVC plumbing and certain toys and packaging material. > All of these have very readily available substitutes. This may be true for the professional builder, but I have not found it to be so for me. I found that people in supply stores around here had a standard which they carried and had to order anything else in bulk. I could not find ABS pipe easily, though I tried, and so I went with PVC for my electrical conduit and for my sewer and vent pipe. I could get the PVC right when I needed it; the ABS was harder to get, and would cost more, because it needed to be specially ordered. I had never built before, so ordering in advance did not work well for me, because I could not get a good estimate for how much I would end up needing. As it was, I bought exactly as much as I needed, and no more, even to the extent of asking around for a spare 4-foot piece of vent pipe to bridge the final gap. I could not find alternatives to CCA-treated wood, either, unless I ordered by the cube. Here I got lucky; I salvaged some logs, and two of them turned out to be locust. I managed to stretch the locust to cover the moisture-critical areas (lower window-sills at the gable ends, and the bottoms of the door bucks). The knowledge of the local builders is probably good in areas which I know nothing about, but I've been surprised at the lack of technical knowledge. I call asking for xps foam board. They tell me that they don't have that, but they have Dow blueboard. Well, I look at the blueboard, and I find "extruded polystyrene" stamped on it. I ask for eps foam board, and they haven't a clue, etc. Just some input from the experience of a first-time owner-builder. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 18:25:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA28373 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:25:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07338; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:20:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:15:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA06607 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:15:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06594 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:15:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.168] (ka3-168.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.168]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.9.1+DND/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA01770; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:16:13 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <19990111.221743.-203531.11.shardon5@juno.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:08:26 -0500 To: shardon5@juno.com (sharon j emley), Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Cold Batteries? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id SAA06604 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5807 Sgrìobh Don Arkin: > There is another choice for PV storage perhaps in the near future. A > spin-off company of Sat-Con Technologies in Cambridge, Ma is producing > flywheel batteries with integral inverters for direct connection to PV > systems. These are probably not very sensitive to cold, but they are > tough on budgets. I believe that they have only sold a few so far mostly > to telephone companies who appreciate the totally maintenance free > aspect. I have forgotten the exact numbers but it was about $6000 for a > unit with the capacity of about 3 large automotive batteries. Remember, > the inverter and other electronics are included. Don Arkin > I had not realized that flywheels were being sold commercially yet. I have great hopes for these as an eventual alternative to batteries. Though I know little about them, it seems possible to me that they may end up being more environmentally friendly, more reliable (less maintenance), less difficult to plan for (more location options and wider temperature range) and safer (I understand that they become totally inert when they fail, with the force of the spin being absorbed as the flywheel chews up the interior of the casing). Of course, the price has to come down a bit for private individuals to use them, but they'll probably come down steadily. How far will they drop? I don't know. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 18:41:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA28494 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:41:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA07933; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:36:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:31:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA07658 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:31:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA07654 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:31:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from reg-53-0110.direct.ca ([216.66.142.10] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #18) id 101fCZ-0006eA-00; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:32:23 -0800 Message-ID: <36A12152.1854D47C@direct.ca> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:31:30 -0800 From: Richard Kadulski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-SYMPA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: jdo@ucalgary.ca Subject: RE: GBlist: Use of flyash in concrete References: <199901152337.SAA19200@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5808 > From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" > > In Alberta the burning of coal produces toxic waste such as: mercury, > hexavalent chromium, inorganic cadmium, lead, nickel compounds, inorganic > arsenic. (Alberta) > > Beyond that, coal burning generating plants may also produce "acids and > anhydrides, amines, > inorganic salts, carbonyl compounds, hetercyclics, polycyclic aromatic > hydrocarbons, suphur compounds, organic metallics, cyanides, > trace elements, toxic elements, radioactive elements, nitric acid, > nitrosamines, chromium chloride, formaldehyde, pyridines, benzene, > hydrogen sulphide,tetraethyl lead, hydrogen cyanide and radium."(LBL) > > Our previous use of flyash was based on research done perhaps 10 years ago > at the University of Calgary. Reports were produced for Alberta Municipal > Affairs. > > Until I know the results of these contaminants and their effect on health, > flyash in concrete is a good theory. I am not sure what application there > may be where the product is not handled by humans or used for human > occupation. Perhaps someone can correct me. > Jorg Ostrowski > > At the risk of leaving the wrong impression, I would like to ask what is the significance of some of these chemicals? When I think back on the days I took chemistry courses at university (many years ago) I recall that all substances when analyzed by their chemical constituents, can sound very intimidating. I am sure that an analytical chemist can take any common, benign product, be it a pastry, an article of clothing, or a piece of wood that has been finished with all natural finishing products, and tell you the constituents in the product. To the uninitiated, it may sound like a bizarre, dangerous chemical soup. The point I am trying to say is not that this analysis of fly ash, as one example, should be considered as extreme or scare tactic. Rather, it should have, alongside, an analysis of concentrations, and the significance of the products. After all, some of the compounds in the list are also naturally occurring, and in most cases may not be dangerous or toxic. One example: formaldehyde. It is a naturally occurring product, and its all around us in nature. The concern is really one of concentration and form - at what concentrations does it enter the threshold of concern? There are other items on the list that are naturally occurring also. I believe, and I stand to be corrected on this, but the concern with many chemical products is their concentration, and if they are in a form where they can migrate into air, water or food and thus become a contaminant to living organisms. My understanding is that the case for using some products such as fly ash, is that the process that takes place in the formulation/hydration, etc. of the cement binds and locks in some of these hazardous products which would have to handled otherwise, in some cases in a more hazardous manner. Perhaps some forms of fly ash should not be used in this way. But then again, as a byproduct of coal burning, the source is different batches of coal, so it really depends where the source is from. A point is where is it being used. We don't normally eat off the concrete floors or walls, so we would not expect or need it to meet the same standards as a container from which we eat, or use for surgical purposes. As I said at the outset, the point of raising this issue is to use a bit of analysis when looking at these problem materials. -- Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver, BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax 604-689-11841 Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design Editor Solplan Review: the independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 19:06:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA28669 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:06:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08912; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:00:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:55:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08449 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:55:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA08445 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:55:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from my_machine.UIC.EDU (SLIP10B-02.DIALIN.UIC.EDU [128.248.141.118]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA09428 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:47:54 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990116174556.006a55b4@tigger.cc.uic.edu> X-Sender: miversen@tigger.cc.uic.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:45:56 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Michael Iversen Subject: GBlist: Re: GBlist / Drywall Recycling Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5809 At 01:13 PM 1/16/99 -0500, Sucila Fernandes wrote: >I'm trying to find companies that will accept and recycle our drywall from >a rennovation project. I'd prefer to work with companies in the midwest >and northeast region. I'd also be willing to hear some other alternative >solutions to this drywall waste. Thank You, Sucila Sucila, It has been a couple of years since I was more involved with this subject, but the only companies that have been involved with recycling gypsum board in the Chicagoland area to my knowledge are as follows; VIM Corporation Goshen, IN / 630.858.5180 (Goshen is about 20 miles south of South Bend, along Route 33) Contact: Vince McMahon Business Type: Processor. Gypsum is used as a soil amendment and the paper backing is used for animal bedding because the lime slows the bacteria process. Currently, their main supply is provided by 'clean' gypsum board waste from modular housing. Cornerstone Material Recovery McHenry, IL (telephone no. unknown. There is a chance they no longer recycle gypsum board) Contact: Steve Clements Business Type: Hauler and processor. Also, in 1997, USG Corp. was considering accepting discarded gypsum at their East Chicago, IN plant. If you decide to investigate this possibility, the contact for USG at that time was Charlie Byers. For additional information on this topic, you may refer to the Construction and Demolition Site Recycling Guidebook and Directory, which is available from the Illinois Dept. of Commerce and Community Affairs (217.785.2800) and the Green Construction Council (Brett Holland/Patrick Engineering, 312.220.0720). Also, the Solid Waste Dept. of DuPage County, IL (630.682.7373) completed a study entitled "Gypsum Market Development" in 1997, which identified gypsum recycling techniques, haulers and processors, and long term markets for discarded gypsum in the Chicago area. Dean Olson was the contact person for the Solid Waste Dept. at that time. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 21:42:05 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29689 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:42:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA14856; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:36:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:32:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14225 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:31:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14210 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:31:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.167]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 2762200 ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:32:57 -0800 Message-ID: <36A14B7A.AA688DD3@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:31:22 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Kadulski CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , jdo@ucalgary.ca Subject: Re: GBlist: Use of flyash in concrete References: <199901152337.SAA19200@solstice.crest.org> <36A12152.1854D47C@direct.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5810 I think for me the issue with this will be accountability. I already have concerns with what constitutes the inert ingredients in concrete and we are all victims of past excesses - whether a result of limited knowledge, controlled information or simply misinformation (a recent Rachel article reinforced that point for me with a discussion of children's lead levels - "pre-Columbian inhabitants of North America had average blood lead levels of 0.016 ug/dL -- 625 times as low as the 10 ug/dL now established as "safe" for children". The concrete industry is not one with a good reputation and is becoming increasingly tied to the waste industry - we will probably see increases in the percentage of ash from the waste incineration cement kilns be allowed into the product anyway and what little we know of synergism, especially over time and in reaction to the elements leaves me concerned about ever getting an appropriate amount of information about the risk. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 16 21:43:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29710 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:43:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA15131; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:38:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:34:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA14512 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:34:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA14488 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:34:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.167]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 2762900 ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:35:31 -0800 Message-ID: <36A14C13.FA26168F@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:33:55 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: no roof ventilation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5811 I'm looking for sources of information on some recent studies done on ventilation (I think they were CMHC studies done in Vancouver) thanks John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 17 00:04:41 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA00971 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 00:04:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA20418; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 23:59:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 16 Jan 1999 23:55:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA20172 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 23:55:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.gorge.net (mail.gorge.net [205.162.195.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA20168 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 23:55:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from gorge.net ([208.14.145.247]) by mail.gorge.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-54909U8000L800S0V35) with ESMTP id AAA227 for ; Sat, 16 Jan 1999 20:47:54 -0800 Message-ID: <36A16F7B.84EACDC6@gorge.net> Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:05:08 -0800 From: Daniel Dancer Organization: ZeroCircles Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Another Strawbale Yurt builder Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5812 I too am looking for examples of a strawbale yurt...especially how to tie in the rafters to a center collar above which would be an operabale window. Anyone know of anything like this out there? Many Thanks, Daniel Dancer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 17 05:39:07 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA02800 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:39:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA01430; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:34:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:30:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA01018 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:29:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from garnet.sover.net (garnet.sover.net [209.198.87.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA01008 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:29:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.234] (pm0a16.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.80]) by garnet.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA23931 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:30:55 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) [207.136.199.234] from pm0a16.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.80] 207.136.199.80 Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:30:55 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: nmalin@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:25:39 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: The Furnace-free House in Vermont Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5813 Marc Rosenbaum was kind enough to share with us a long e-mail exchange that might of interest to some listers. Since it's too long for the list, we've posted it on our Web site: http://www.ebuild.com/Greenbuilding/FurnaceFree.html Nadav The Furnace-free House in Vermont This document contains a three-way conversation between Donella (Dana) Meadows (the client), Marc Rosenbaum, PE (the ecological design/energy consultant), and Amory Lovins (world famous energy expert). It began when Amory told Donella that it was possible to build a passive solar home in the Vermont climate which required no heating system or back-up heat. Marc was very skeptical, and went on to do computer modeling to verify this claim. The actual project is a 22 unit cohousing/organic farm/institute being created in Hartland, Vermont. Amory and Dana have been very generous to share this unedited private conversation with a larger audience. Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 17 05:39:07 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA02801 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:39:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA01428; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:34:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:30:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA01010 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:29:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from garnet.sover.net (garnet.sover.net [209.198.87.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA01003 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:29:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.234] (pm0a16.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.80]) by garnet.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA23928 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:30:53 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) [207.136.199.234] from pm0a16.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.80] 207.136.199.80 Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:30:53 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: nmalin@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36A14B7A.AA688DD3@cow-net.com> References: <199901152337.SAA19200@solstice.crest.org> <36A12152.1854D47C@direct.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:20:05 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Use of flyash in concrete Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5814 At 6:31 PM -0800 1/16/99, John Salmen wrote: > >The concrete industry is not one with a good reputation and is becoming >increasingly tied to the waste industry - we will probably see increases >in the >percentage of ash from the waste incineration cement kilns be allowed into the >product anyway and what little we know of synergism, especially over time >and in >reaction to the elements leaves me concerned about ever getting an appropriate >amount of information about the risk. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been under them impression that any ash generated during the firing of cement _IS_ in the product. My understanding is that the fuel enters the main chamber along with the limestone, and the clinker that is ground into cement is what comes out the bottom. I know, for example, that one advantage of using tires as fuel in these kilns is that the traces of steel from the steel belted radials are beneficial to the cement. Nadav Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 17 05:55:47 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA02861 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:55:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA01866; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:50:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:47:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA01640 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:47:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA01636 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:47:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-16-121.cyberzone.net [209.150.16.121]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:28:26 -0500 Message-ID: <36A1EAF0.4F85@cyberzone.net> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 05:51:44 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bion D. Howard" CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Thermal performance and CMU walls References: <3.0.32.19990116111553.006f5bf8@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5815 Bion wrote: > Also, in the Pacific Northwest, CMU's may be obtained made with pumice > aggregate which creates a lightweight block with nice architectural color. > For aesthetics you could consider "split-face" or "split-ribbed" exposed > surfaces in your design. This approach has been used in commercial > buildings, and even in additions to metal buildings. You may have seen the > recent trend in Kohls, Wal-mart, and other stores going with split-face > block as well. Sure beats the look of traditional "cinder block" walls. I have two major concerns regarding CMU as both interior and exterior surface. 1) As in any "inside and outside" system, there is no true thermal break through the webs of the block. Commercial and metal buildings aren't houses, and I'd be concerned about cold spots and condensation on the colder web portions of the block, since the insulation value of the concrete is negligable. I'd hate to live in a Wal Mart next to the outside wall! 2) CMU is extremely porous by nature, and the only way to make the surface water repellent is to treat it with something, which can have the added problem of sealing any moisture in the wall, then causing spalling with freeze/thaw cycles. And I have no idea about the environmental properties of these materials, which need to be reapplied periodically. After a rain untreated cmu can be seen to be soaking wet, and that's not just surface moisture. 3) Our office uses lots of masonry in construction, but the exterior is always 4" veneer (brick, stone, cmu, precast concrete), separated by an air space with wire ties, then insulation and the backup wall (cmu or insulated metal stud). With proper weeps and flashing, along with proper installation, moisture that inevitably gets into the cavity can drain to the outside. Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 17 07:43:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA03330 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 07:43:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA04212; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 07:38:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 Jan 1999 07:34:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA03991 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 07:34:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@APACHE.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA03987 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 07:34:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA07685; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 07:35:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from csy8.vineyard.net(206.166.158.50) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma007575; Sun Jan 17 07:34:54 1999 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 07:35:36 -0500 To: mjr@valley.net, greenbuilding@crest.org From: John Abrams Subject: GBlist: FurnaceFree Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5816 Hi Marc and Listers - Thanks to Nadav (and you and Amory) for sharing such an illuminating exchange on the EBN site. Did listers read? Marc, I think you were both generous and restrained regarding WHAT was being modeled. The cost (both design and construction) and architectural implications of building the houses modeled, even to get close, are in no way trivial! Sometimes the difference between what we would like to be able to do and what we can is sobering. Thanks for patrolling the perimeter - I know it's not your favorite thing to do. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 17 10:29:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA04130 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:29:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09505; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:24:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:20:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09177 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:19:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlas.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [209.250.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09173 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:19:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from timex.pathcom.com (ts40l38.pathcom.com [209.250.145.47]) by atlas.pathcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA16979 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:23:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901171523.KAA16979@atlas.pathcom.com> From: timex@pathcom.com To: "greenbuilding" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:23:34 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Waterfall Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5817 Has anyone on the list had any experience with the Waterfall brand of rain-gutter leaf guards? One of their web-sites claims that: 1) They help prevent ice damming 2) You never have to clean your eaves again any comments? marilyn Cybercrone http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Don't get even. . . get odd! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 17 11:11:41 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04835 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:11:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA11241; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:06:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:03:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10962 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.mindspring.com (smtp2.mindspring.com [207.69.200.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10954 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:02:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip59.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.59]) by smtp2.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA15266; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:03:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990117160213.009fa854@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:02:13 -0500 To: Andy Shapiro , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5818 At 02:09 PM 1/14/1999 -0500, Andy Shapiro wrote: >By the way, Accurate Dorwin (888-982-4640) is one of Thermotech's >(613-225-1101) competitors and also should be on your bid-list for >fiberglass windows. I am a big fan of both of these windows. I concur with Andy, we have used Accurate Dorwin windows on several jobs. Rehabbing an existing masonry opening is one great example, since AD custom fabricates to your specs (measure thrice, please). #2 is the advantages of a very rigid sash (and they are very heavy), we just foam them into the masonry opening. Stick framing too, since they can't easily be distorted. #3 - the f/g sash moves at the same rate as the glazing, with little potential for a broken glazing seal. Broken seals are the window industry's largest callback, with the exception of incorrect installation, weatherseal & flashing errors or a lack of proper mechanical support. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel.516/477-2922 fax.516/345-3169 North Fork Retrofit doughf@mindspring.com 511 Carpenter St doughf@aol.com (fallback) Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 17 16:35:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA10305 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:35:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24133; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:30:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:26:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23752 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlas.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [209.250.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23748 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:26:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from timex.pathcom.com (ts42l8.pathcom.com [209.250.145.113]) by atlas.pathcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA25887; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:29:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901172129.QAA25887@atlas.pathcom.com> From: timex@pathcom.com To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca, "greenbuilding" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:29:35 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Waterfall Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com In-reply-to: <36A23A5E.1B637FE0@atlasinc.on.ca> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5819 Neil: This is the site I was given: http://www.obdyke.com/inwagu.htm Thanks for your interest. marilyn Cybercrone http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Don't get even. . . get odd! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 17 18:09:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11885 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:09:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA28741; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:04:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:00:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA28103 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:00:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28078; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:00:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp039.cd.centuryinter.net (ppp039.cd.centuryinter.net [209.142.147.111]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA02533; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:59:26 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36A29BE2.139D@centuryinter.net> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:26:42 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Reply-To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: heat capacity of road gravel Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5820 Can someone tell me the heat storage capacity of 100 cu yards of compacted road gravel? Thanks. Keith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 17 18:41:15 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA12219 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:41:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00142; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:36:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:32:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29752 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:31:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29747 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:31:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-91-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.91]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA25250 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:33:02 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990117183254.007d6ad0@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:32:54 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re:block walls and ventilation studies and storm windows In-Reply-To: <199901170700.CAA23985@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5821 With regard to insulated block wall -- We recently recommended a 12" Hi-R Korfil structural block wall (as Bion also recommended) for a two-story 30-ft high building, with 3-1/2" Roxul mineral fiber outside that with air gap outside that with brick finish outside that. We dealt with the exterior of the block as the drainage plane. The Roxul was detailed to go past the floors. One thing to watch out for: when the final plans came out we saw that the stuructural engineers had called for filling the entire core in a large area of the wall, even though we suplied them structural info from Korfil showing that the the cores can be filled with the inserts in place, as in the 12" blocks there is still a lot of room. I am not sure if the Korfil info wasn't enough, if the info was enough but the strength wasn't, if it just wasn't standard practice, or none of the above. This degraded the insulative value of the wall, of course. Ventilation studies I am also interested in ventilation studies: there is one going on here in Vermont, measureing air flow through exhaust only fans in new single family homes. Terry Brennan is working on one for NYSERDA where they are wrestling with the real issue effectiveness. If you know of others, I would like to find out, too Storm windows Storm windows DO add insulative value. If the storm and the prime window are in good enough shape to make a reasonably closed air space between them, the dead air space is worth about R-1 -- with a low-e on one side of the air space, it's worth more -- maybe R-1-1/2, maybe approaching R-2. One of the benefits of a storm window is that the double glazing (prime + storm window) has as long a life as you care to maintain it (or until the glass breaks), unlike sealed glass units which last as long as the seal (10 or 20 years on good ones?)-- same with energy panels added to sash -- the catch is you do have to clean in the cavity now and then, but you get something whose life can approach that of the house. How does the trade-off between life and maintenance strike folks on this list? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 17 22:44:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA14358 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:44:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10103; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:39:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:34:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA09476 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:33:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09464 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:33:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-34-185.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.185]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA03105; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:33:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:37:55 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE426A.06BA6CC0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Mark Heinicke'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: Foundations/footings. Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:03:27 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5822 On Sunday, January 17, 1999 6:45 AM, Mark Heinicke [SMTP:mjh123@cville.net] wrote: > Nevertheless, Rob Roy builds cordwood in northern NY where the frostline > approaches this extreme, but still believes in earth-sheltered design. I > haven't seen the science on the flywheel effect of earth-sheltering in cold > climates, but it seems to me that ground at 25-30 Fahrenheit is still > better than air at 20 below. ?? You are correct Mark. Done correctly, earht-sheltering works extremely well in cold climates. Your comment that 25 F is still better than -20 F is bang on. But, this does not mean we are "ground coupling" as some seem to think. The same R20 simply has a much greater effect below grade because of the very large thermal mass of the ground. Another inportant issue is air leakage. Air leakage through underground enclosures occurs, but much less than above grade, and the leaking air is warmer. Hence, since air leakage accounts for 1/3 to 1/2 of heating in a EE house, this in itself can be a major saving. > I find the interaction between insulation and thermal mass (including > earth-sheltering, which uses the effectively infinite thermal mass of the > whole planet) often baffling. Are there definitive scientific conclusions > on this question published somewhere? The Underground Space Center at the Univ of Minn. worked extensively on this in the 70's and published some now hard to get info. There is data out there in odd places. The easiest way to think of it is as a very massive wall. You still need insulation or heat loss will be high and surfaces cold/uncomofrtable, but the insulation goes a lot further to saving energy. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 17 22:44:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA14363 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:44:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10113; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:39:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:34:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA09503 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:33:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09488 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:33:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-34-185.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.185]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA03334; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:34:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:38:33 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE426A.1D518180.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'timex@pathcom.com'" , "'greenbuilding'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Waterfall Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:37:39 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5823 On Sunday, January 17, 1999 5:24 AM, timex@pathcom.com [SMTP:timex@pathcom.com] wrote: > Has anyone on the list had any experience with the Waterfall brand of > rain-gutter leaf guards? > One of their web-sites claims that: > 1) They help prevent ice damming Either they are lying, they dont know what ice-damming, or they have a different meaning for ice damming than the majority of the building industry. Ice daming occurs becuase heat loss through the roof causing snow to melt, and refreezing as the melt water gets to the cooler overhang part of the roof. Eavestroughs, with or without a leaf guard, are not part of the cause or solution to ice damming. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 17 23:11:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA14740 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:11:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA11669; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:06:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:02:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11359 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:01:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from srunet.sru.edu (srunet.sru.edu [192.148.234.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11353 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:01:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from phoenix.sru.edu ([205.149.64.44] helo=rockmail.sru.edu) by srunet.sru.edu with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for greenbuilding@crest.org id 1026uq-00049s-00; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 00:07:56 -0500 Received: from oemcomputer ([208.231.49.183]) by rockmail.sru.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with SMTP id AAABAC for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:02:46 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990118040215.0068864c@rockmail.sru.edu> X-Sender: jdt4006@rockmail.sru.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:02:15 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Jeremy Truog Subject: Re: GBlist: heat capacity of road gravel Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5824 Keith, I couldn't find a heat storage capacity for compacted road gravel specifically, but I did find some information in "Solarizing Your Present Home", by Joe Carter, for stone. The book states that the specific heat of stone is 0.21. If the stone is compacted at a density of 90 to 170 pounds per cubic foot, the heat capacity works out to be 18 to 36 Btu/cubic foot/ degree F. Here's the part that I need everyone to double check my math on. To convert from cubic feet to cubic yards, one would divide by 27...right? So...following my understanding, this leads to a heat capacity of .667 to 1.333 Bty/cubic yard/ degree F. Multiply by 100 cubic yards will give you a heat capacity of 66.667 to 133.33...depending on the density of the material. I'm sure I'll be corrected of any math errors, so if not correct, I hope this will start you down the right path. Jeremy Truog At 06:26 PM 1/17/99 -0800, you wrote: >Can someone tell me the heat storage capacity of 100 cu yards of >compacted road gravel? > >Thanks. > >Keith >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > Jeremy Truog 143 N. Center St. #2 Grove City, PA 16127 (724) 458-5198 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 17 23:28:03 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA14863 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:27:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA12775; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:22:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:18:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA12191 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-01.cdsnet.net (mail-01.cdsnet.net [206.107.16.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA12186 for ; Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:16:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 9322 invoked from network); 18 Jan 1999 04:18:04 -0000 Received: from d01a8587.dip.cdsnet.net (HELO internetcds.com) (208.26.133.135) by mail.cdsnet.net with SMTP; 18 Jan 1999 04:18:04 -0000 Message-ID: <36A2B6E6.626C1E26@internetcds.com> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 20:21:59 -0800 From: Mike Howell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Link to yurt for sale Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5825 Greetings, I have a 20 foot diameter canvas yurt for sale. I built and lived in this yurt in southern Oregon for over two years. Unfortunately, I have outgrown it, so it is now for sale . If you want more info on it, see http://www.howler.org/yurt.htm Mike Howell ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 02:29:42 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA16446 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA18719; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:24:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:20:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA18289 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:19:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.monumental.com (mail1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA18276; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:19:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by mail1.monumental.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA24526; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:15:01 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 02:19:57 -0500 To: Green building list , Energy Eff Building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: Quick assist on moisture proofing a slab for walkin cooler/freezer Cc: "Tyson, Jeff" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5826 990118 Dear Distinguished listers: We at Tanglewood Ordinary Restaurant are preparing to pour a concrete slab of 3000 lb concrete about 10x17 to support a new multisection walkin cooler about 8x16 ft in total. It is kindof an emergency. Under it will be 4 in of "pink eps" for insulation. With all the traffic about moistureproofing concrete slabs, I am nervous. Will 6 mil poly do it or should I rush around to get something more substantial? We are in Central VA, and wetness is not a big problem with this part of our property, and in fact the land falls off nearby facilitating drainage. My architect is on vacation, so I would Really appreciate any fast suggestions you could drop my way or encouragement we are "doing it right", jh I apologize for those of you who subs to both EEBA and the Green Building lists getting this twice. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 08:22:34 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA19962 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:22:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26372; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:17:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:13:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA26071 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:12:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA26063 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:12:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.magma.ca (mail2x.magma.ca [206.191.0.220]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA18944; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:13:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (port-2-130.magma.ca [206.191.63.130]) by mail2.magma.ca (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA13401; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:13:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: X-Sender: stephen@mail.magma.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 23:14:51 -0500 To: Frazer Dougherty , Andy Shapiro , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Stephen Thwaites Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Windows In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19990117160213.009fa854@pop.mindspring.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5827 At 11:02 AM 1/17/99 -0500, Frazer Dougherty wrote: >#3 - the f/g sash moves at the same rate as the glazing, with little >potential for a broken glazing seal. > >Broken seals are the window industry's largest callback, with the exception >of incorrect installation, weatherseal & flashing errors or a lack of proper >mechanical support. There are lots of neat advantages to a frame material that moves at very nearly the same rate as the glazing panel in it. Glazing panel seal durability, however, is not near the top of the list. Actually the #1 cause of seal failures is glazing sealant that gets wet and stays wet. That's why it's so important that glazing cavities are at least drained and hopefully vented too. (Glazing sealant is the black stuff at the outside edge of the glazing panel that seals the pieces of glass together. It can't be seen unless the glazing panel is not in the sash) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 09:14:04 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA20324 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:14:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28385; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:08:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:03:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28017 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:02:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (wfntnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.37.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28012 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:02:51 -0500 (EST) From: swiftjr@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 852566FD.004D3830 ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:03:26 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: jdt4006@sru.edu cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <852566FD.004C99FC.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:03:04 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: heat capacity of road gravel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5828 Assuming your assumptions about the specific heat and density are correct (18 - 36 BTU's cubic foot), you would multiply by 27 (not divide) to convert from the specific heat per cubic foot to cubic yard. (18 - 36 BTU's per cubic foot per degree F) x (27 cubic feet / yard) = 486 - 972 BTU's / cubic yard per degree F. Joe ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 10:02:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20768 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:02:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00642; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:57:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:53:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA00128 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:52:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00115 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:52:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA03095 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:53:10 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:53:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA11-p41.dreamscape.com [209.4.254.105]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA05095 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:53:08 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sA11-p41.dreamscape.com [209.4.254.105] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:53:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36A34A1F.C4A31257@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:50:07 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: The Furnace Free House in Vermont Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5829 Marc, I was once again impressed by your thoroughness, professionalism and tact, this time in an extremely awkward three way conversation. Your diligence in searching for the realistic balance between cost and benefit should be applauded, hopefully your client realizes the value of your efforts. How many thousand dollars should one spend to eliminate an under $30 dollar, renewable (wood from site) fuel bill? Have you considered a small wood or wood/gas boiler for backup heat and DHW for the entire complex? Are the buildings layed out in a configuration that would lend itself to this shared arrangement? Thank you for sharing this lesson with us. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 10:13:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA21928 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:13:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01316; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:08:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:04:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00952 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:03:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00923 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:03:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from sover.net (pm1a28.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.188]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA10697; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:04:32 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) sover.net from pm1a28.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.188] 209.198.93.188 Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:04:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36A34E6C.1C856D8F@sover.net> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:08:28 -0500 From: Cindy Blakeslee Organization: The Center for Sustainble Building (Vermont) dba Residuum X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kurt Rathmann CC: Sucila Fernandes , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: drywall recycling References: <36A101D9.140E@uidaho.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5830 The drywall recycler mentioned by Kurt was briefly in business, but no longer. We in Vermont have no good options at the moment save shipping it out of state. I believe there is a place in New Hampshire which takes clean scraps, but I don't have the particulars at hand. If anyone is interested I can come up with more information for the NE. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 10:25:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22178 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:25:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02024; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:20:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:15:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA01552 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:15:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserve.kvinc.com ([207.100.217.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01535 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:14:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by webserve.kvinc.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BE42CB.77FF31C0@webserve.kvinc.com>; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:15:27 -0500 Message-ID: From: Susan Szalla To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: drywall recycling Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:15:25 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5831 While the subject is on drywall recycling in the North East, does anyone know about drywall recycling in the state of Florida and in the South East? Thanks, Susan Szalla >Kvaerner Construction Inc. > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 11:09:26 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22831 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:09:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05531; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:59:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05010 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:58:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from x16.boston.juno.com (x16.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05000 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:58:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from shardon5@juno.com) by x16.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DY9QMDCK; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:59:26 EST To: ashapiro@together.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:55:07 -0700 Subject: GBlist: calculating solar hot water Message-ID: <19990118.085516.-203691.0.shardon5@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3,5,7,9,11,13-15,17-18,20,22-23 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: sharon j emley Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5832 I am getting conflicting local opinions in Tucson, Az on the best way to make solar hot water for a common building for a cohousing community. The building will have hydronic heating and cannot be properly oriented to use direct solar gain. I have proposed to use the triangular space below the gable roof end of the south face of the building as a solar collector with glass tilted at about 20 degrees from vertical and the innards of several water heaters as collectors. These are my questions. 1. Since the space will only collect X amount of energy, where is my practical limit for the volume of collectors? 2. How do I calculate how many BTU's I should be collecting? 3. Should this work better (assuming the space is insulated) than collectors outside the enclosure? 4. Am I better off spending more on the double-glazing or better windows than on an insulated shutter for the dark times, especially if it doubles as a reflector shelf during the day? Thanks for any help. Don Arkin Sonora Cohousing ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 11:10:21 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22843 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:10:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05682; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:05:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:01:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05147 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:00:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA05137 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:00:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA14622 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:00:38 -0600 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:58:25 -0600 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: Flyash Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:58:24 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5833 > Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:18:10 -0500 > From: Jillanna Babb > Subject: RE: GBlist: Use of flyash in concrete > > Greetings! > What kind of dangerous byproducts come with flyash as a result of coal > fired generating plants? I am very interested in the past research > mentioned below... > We use flyash (in AAC), but it has been tested and is clean. Flyash > varies due to differing sources of coal... > What similar work that predates Mehta's are you referring to? I am eager > to learn... I work with flyash, and would certainly like to avoid any > dangers that may be involved. > Thanks > Jillanna Babb-Cheshul > > > Jillanna - Flyash from coal, in most cases, is a very clean product. Several years ago, it was declared an inert material by the U.S. EPA. There are a lot of unsubstantiated horror stories being passed around, regarding flyash. You are correct in asking for documentation...most people who spread the horror stories cannot provide it. - Patrick Pierquet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 11:36:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23205 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:36:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA07443; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:31:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:27:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA07094 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:27:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA07090 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:26:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-9-29.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.9.29]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA14693; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:27:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36A362F1.F86D0276@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:36:01 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cindy Blakeslee CC: Kurt Rathmann , Sucila Fernandes , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Death to Drywall References: <36A101D9.140E@uidaho.edu> <36A34E6C.1C856D8F@sover.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5834 Okay, the subject line is a bit aggressive. Hoping for shock value. The thread "GBlist: drywall recycling" brings up a question I've been thinking about. Are there any good options that replace drywall entirely? I am thinking of an option that: -does not require 'damage' when renovating or remodelling. (and therfore dumpage) -does not require messy repairs. -is more dent and scratch resistant -does not require mudding and sanding (and all that dust) -is acceptable to home owners (yikes!) -is affordable (when I say affordable I mean life-cycle cost to consumer, not up front cost nor the more ideal life-cycle environmental cost.) -I assume that any system like this would have high up front installation costs as compared to regular drywall (though getting rid of mudding and taping might make those costs even out. Definitely in the case of renovations with the inconvenience factor.) For example a wall board that fastens with removable fasteners. I was thinking that some of the recycled fibre-gypsum boards might be usable in this way. They are tougher. However I am not sure what a good hanging system would require? Or a modular system that snaps together. Like those used in office buildings. (where things change more.) Are there any of those office building modular partitions that are in use in residential setups? I know there are some nicer dropped ceilings that can replace drywall on a ceiling (or exposed beams). But I haven't seen much in the way for walls. It strikes me that drywall is a classic low initial high life-cycle cost material. Any comments? Neil Cindy Blakeslee wrote: > > The drywall recycler mentioned by Kurt was briefly in business, but no > longer. We in Vermont have no good options at the moment save shipping > it out of state. I believe there is a place in New Hampshire which > takes clean scraps, but I don't have the particulars at hand. If anyone > is interested I can come up with more information for the NE. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 11:48:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA23391 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:48:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08468; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:42:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:39:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08020 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:38:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08004 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:38:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-43.netmeg.net [208.139.83.106]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA05543; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:35:17 -0500 Message-ID: <36A362E6.69E6EE17@swinter.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:35:50 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cindy Blakeslee CC: Kurt Rathmann , Sucila Fernandes , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: drywall recycling References: <36A101D9.140E@uidaho.edu> <36A34E6C.1C856D8F@sover.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5835 Hello all! I have read and heard that one can use drywall (recycled) as compost material. debra Lombard green-haus http://home.earthlink.net/~dlombard Cindy Blakeslee wrote: > The drywall recycler mentioned by Kurt was briefly in business, but no > longer. We in Vermont have no good options at the moment save shipping > it out of state. I believe there is a place in New Hampshire which > takes clean scraps, but I don't have the particulars at hand. If anyone > is interested I can come up with more information for the NE. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 12:17:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24719 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:17:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA11129; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:11:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:07:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA10695 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:07:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA10689 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:07:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from sover.net (pm0a3.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.131]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA14117; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:08:10 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) sover.net from pm0a3.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.131] 209.198.93.131 Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:08:10 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36A36B66.668D25FB@sover.net> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:12:07 -0500 From: Cindy Blakeslee Organization: The Center for Sustainble Building (Vermont) dba Residuum X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca CC: Kurt Rathmann , Sucila Fernandes , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Death to Drywall References: <36A101D9.140E@uidaho.edu> <36A34E6C.1C856D8F@sover.net> <36A362F1.F86D0276@atlasinc.on.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5836 Here's a radical idea. How about no/fewer walls? I personally am designing my SB with no interior walls, merely suggestions of space separations. Other than the bathroom/bedroom I personally see no need for interior walls, and those that I do have will be SB or widows all strung together (lets light penetrate better). Think of caves -- they have chambers -- not air tight light tight sound tight areas, but are simply expanded living spaces. I currently live in a Victorian era house which drives me crazy -- whose idea was it any way to divide up a nice space into tiny areas which confound the best of furniture arrangers? Seeing the waste involved in remodeling (I have a construction waste reduction service), and the tonnages of drywall scraps which are generated (and I used to think drywall was inert until I learned that under certain conditions in landfills it produces a toxic gas), I think we've come to accept interior design/products which are unsupportable and certainly unsustainable. Anyone want to argue with me???? Sure, there are things which can be done with scrap drywall -- many are researching that -- but a better solution would be to come up with either design alternatives or material alternatives. Either of these may require lifestyle changes, but then I suspect that most of us realize that that is inevitable as we strive to achieve true sustainability. We have become a bit too comfy in our materialistic self-oriented 68 degree lifestyles, and while the mainstream may take a while to come around I trust that many of us can set an achieveable standard. By the way I suggest people bring mittens when they visit my unheated store.... Thanks for listening. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 12:25:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24846 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:25:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12115; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:19:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:16:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA11527 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:15:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11519 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:15:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from reg-53-0190.direct.ca ([216.66.142.90] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #18) id 102IIH-00072l-00; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:16:53 -0800 Message-ID: <36A36C07.7562BC8D@direct.ca> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:14:47 -0800 From: Richard Kadulski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-SYMPA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: terrain@cow-net.com CC: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: no roof ventilation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5837 Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:36:40 -0800 From: Richard Kadulski The Study was titled "Attic Ventilation and Moisture Control Strategies" and was done by Shletair Scientific for CMHC. The precis I wrote in Solplan Review (no. 79, March 1998) is as follows: Attic Ventilation " From the perspective of moisture control, attic ventilation in mild climate areas is not as important as has been thought." Building codes require attics to be ventilated. The intent is to remove moisture that escapes from the building's interior into the attic. Does ventilation really work? How much is really needed? Does the ventilation need differ for different climatic conditions or house styles? Code requirements do not give recognition for differing climates, housing styles, construction practices or the presence of alternate moisture control strategies. Computer simulations show that in extreme climactic zones in Canada, (such as the Prairies), attic ventilation may be prudent and the code specification of a vent area of 1:300 is generally satisfactory. However, in more moderate climates such as coastal climates, the same simulations suggest that the same code requirement tends to over ventilate attics - actually contributing to higher moisture levels! Reducing roof ventilation goes against common wisdom. However, attic ventilation requirements are one of those issues that has had little scientific study. Code requirements at the moment are based on field experience gained by trial and error rather than study. A recent monitoring study for CMHC by Sheltair Scientific measured the effect on attic moisture levels resulting from the elimination of all intentional attic roof ventilation in new houses. It provides actual measured performance data. The moisture levels in the attics of new houses (in Edmonton and Vancouver) built with no intentional attic ventilation were measured (between fall and spring) and compared with the moisture levels in the attics of four similar houses with conventional ventilated attics. All were built over the summer of 1996. Each of the houses with no attic ventilation was paired with a "control" house built by the same builder with as similar a location and design as possible but meeting code ventilation requirements. An air leakage test was done on each house to measure the leakage between the attic and outdoors, between the attic and the house, and between the house and outdoors. The north facing roof sheathing was always found to have the highest wood moisture level. In both Vancouver and Edmonton, one house built with no attic ventilation was found to be drier and the other was found to be wetter than its corresponding control house. Only the attics of one pair of Vancouver houses had high wood moisture levels. The north roof sheathing of one control house (i.e., a vented attic) reached a moisture level of 30% in midwinter. The attic of its partner house, with no attic ventilation, also had high moisture levels but it remained drier. The attics of all other Vancouver and Edmonton houses remained relatively dry throughout the study period with moisture contents of north facing roof sheathing remaining below 19% moisture content in every case. The moisture level of roof truss members in all houses had small fluctuations, but the moisture level always was less than 15%. The moisture content of truss members in all houses remained lower than that of the north facing roof sheathing. Differences in attic wood moisture content had no relationship to how much air leakage there was at the ceiling between the house and attic. For each pair of houses, the house that had higher moisture levels in the north side sheathing also had a more airtight ceiling. Higher indoor relative humidity levels inside the house generally meant higher moisture levels in the attic no matter how much attic ventilation there was or the air tightness of the ceiling. This also meant wetter attic sheathing. No condensation or frost was observed in any of the Vancouver houses. In Edmonton, three of the four houses had some frost on the inside of attic sheathing in midwinter even though sheathing moisture levels were not very high. In both cities the wood moisture content in attics generally peaked in January/February, and was lower than the moisture content in the roof sheathing. The conclusions of the study suggest that eliminating attic ventilation will not change the wood moisture content in the structure. >From the perspective of moisture control, attic ventilation in mild climate areas is not as important as has been considered. This does mean that moisture control and air sealing are not important. Rather, it suggests that attic ventilation is not critical when a reasonable job has been done to reduce air leakage from the house at the ceiling level. -- Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver, BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax 604-689-11841 Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design Editor Solplan Review: the independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 12:28:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24887 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:28:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12479; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:19:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12011 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:19:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (R0CUZZLvo0xQKAsc4YXOW+LaHhvWUd5w@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12003 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:19:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (NAn2MY3OpkT2+HdOVVoMrNeSmaiI5NLz@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04886; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:20:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA20152; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:20:01 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36A36D1A.2BA03F78@gs.net> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:19:22 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremy Truog CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: heat capacity of road gravel References: <1.5.4.32.19990118040215.0068864c@rockmail.sru.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5838 thinkn you need to multiply not divide.... a cubic yard is 27 times bigger than a cubic foot. SteveP Jeremy Truog wrote: > Keith, > I couldn't find a heat storage capacity for compacted road gravel > specifically, but I did find some information in "Solarizing Your Present > Home", by Joe Carter, for stone. The book states that the specific heat of > stone is 0.21. If the stone is compacted at a density of 90 to 170 pounds > per cubic foot, the heat capacity works out to be 18 to 36 Btu/cubic foot/ > degree F. > Here's the part that I need everyone to double check my math on. To > convert from cubic feet to cubic yards, one would divide by 27...right? > So...following my understanding, this leads to a heat capacity of > .667 to 1.333 Bty/cubic yard/ degree F. Multiply by 100 cubic yards will > give you a heat capacity of 66.667 to 133.33...depending on the density of > the material. > I'm sure I'll be corrected of any math errors, so if not correct, I > hope this will start you down the right path. > > Jeremy Truog > > At 06:26 PM 1/17/99 -0800, you wrote: > >Can someone tell me the heat storage capacity of 100 cu yards of > >compacted road gravel? > > > >Thanks. > > > >Keith > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > Jeremy Truog > 143 N. Center St. #2 > Grove City, PA 16127 > (724) 458-5198 > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 12:32:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24946 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:32:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA12870; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:26:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:22:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA12377 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (Et454T6yffGN8QR0aXGJF+JG2FpRoJ1x@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA12367; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:22:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (mbXG8vwNZX8nZXRWtnCer/VBbJxKmPdL@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA05076; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:22:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA20370; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:22:56 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36A36DCA.651BABEB@gs.net> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:22:18 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" CC: Green building list , Energy Eff Building list , "Tyson, Jeff" Subject: Re: GBlist: Quick assist on moisture proofing a slab for walkin cooler/freezer References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5839 We normally use visquine which I believe is 40 mils thick. Steve P "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" wrote: > 990118 > > Dear Distinguished listers: > > We at Tanglewood Ordinary Restaurant are preparing to pour a concrete slab > of 3000 lb concrete about 10x17 to support a new multisection walkin cooler > about 8x16 ft in total. It is kindof an emergency. Under it will be 4 in > of "pink eps" for insulation. With all the traffic about moistureproofing > concrete slabs, I am nervous. Will 6 mil poly do it or should I rush > around to get something more substantial? We are in Central VA, and > wetness is not a big problem with this part of our property, and in fact > the land falls off nearby facilitating drainage. > > My architect is on vacation, so I would Really appreciate any fast > suggestions you could drop my way or encouragement we are "doing it right", > jh > > I apologize for those of you who subs to both EEBA and the Green Building > lists getting this twice. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 12:59:00 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26487 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:58:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14973; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:53:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:50:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14486 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:49:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14482 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:49:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA23042 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:50:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-wa40-51.ix.netcom.com(207.220.44.179) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma022858; Mon Jan 18 11:49:01 1999 Message-ID: <002401be42c7$6fc3ca60$b32cdccf@upesi> From: "Russel DeLombard" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Thermal performance and CMU walls Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:46:32 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5840 John, Thanks for your input. It sounds like your are familiar with Pacific Northwest conditions which is very helpful. (On Jan 16, 1999 John Salmen wrote (in part): >PNW seismic requirements require a substantial course fill (with reinf.) enough I found to make both the vermiculite or perlite fill not a great contribution for the effort and cost and it does settle dramatically...> I agree that loose fill is not a very productive approach. Actually, I am considering a wall system (one is called "Hi-R") which has a reduced web block (as opposed to the Integra block which has a minimal web). It has 2 webs instead of 3 for a typical 8" high x 16" long block. The webs are also reduced in height to about 2/3 the block height reducing the thermal bridging by the webs to about 8% of the face area of the block. An EPS insert (2", 3" or 4" thick depending on the manufacturer, block thickness, reinforcement space requirements, etc.) with notches for the webs and rabbets at the edges interlocks with adjacent liners to provide a relatively continuous EPS liner interrupted only by the webs. The product literature talks about an R-value of about 14 for low density block. >...-so I think that realistically the core insulation should be calculated to provide full insulation value, more like 3-4". This thickness in eps foam would provide vapour protection and would be less expensive than isocyanurate.> The cavity between the wythes (which is what I believe you are refering to rather than the core of the blocks...correct me if I am wrong) certainly seems like the best place to get the most continuous insulation for the money, especially if it constitutes an exterior envelope outside of all other thermal bridging conditions (bond beams, floor connections etc.) I guess the thickness would be limited only by the ability to structurally tie the wythes together and the total tolerable wall thickness with respect to foundations, detailing of openings (headers, sills, available jamb block shapes) etc. >The amount of area filled for reinforcement also made me wonder if the CMU were anything more than expensive formwork. I personally think there are better alternatives...> I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on alternatives. CMU is only at the top of the list (in spite of its obvious deficiencies in thermal resistance) because the exterior walls are load bearing, supporting a composite concrete and steel floor system, and go to three stories above grade with a basement below. The owners requirements include maximum longevity of the building and exterior finishes with minimal maintenance requirements and maximum fire resistance. A braced frame structure with infill of studs and insulation would suffice structurally, but a rigid insulation envelope would still be required to protect from thermal bridging at the columns, floors etc...and there is still the problem of exterior finish materials which meet the owners maintenance and fire resistance requirements. It just seems that CMU best meets all these other program requirements...if the thermal performance can be addressed. >...but it sounds like block is being chosen for aesthetics...> It is more that the CMU is not objectionable from an aesthetic standpoint since appearance is below the items mentioned above on the owners list of requirements. I am not a fan of split or ribbed faced block, especially for residential use and particularly for interior finishes, but I believe that by using colored and scored block with some thought given to the pattern of scoring and coursing that an attractive wall approaching the look of stone can be achieved. The current thought is to use three slightly different shades, randomly mixed, of light tan colored block with full height courses alternating with half height courses which have vertical scores. >...and is the exposed surface both in the interior and exterior?> Yes, the intent is to leave the surfaces exposed on the exterior and the majority of the interior, at least where it is appropriate. This again goes back to exterior wall requirements of longevity, maintenance and fire resistance; interior mass for thermal storage...as well as aesthetic issues of integrity of materials etc. Thanks again for your time and thoughts. Russel DeLombard (rus_d@ix.netcom.com) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 13:00:31 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26504 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:00:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15130; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:55:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:51:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA14692 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:51:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA14688 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:51:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA23368 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:52:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-wa40-51.ix.netcom.com(207.220.44.179) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma023267; Mon Jan 18 11:51:58 1999 Message-ID: <002901be42c7$d9a97880$b32cdccf@upesi> From: "Russel DeLombard" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: Thermal Performance and CMU Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:49:31 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5841 John, Thanks for taking the time to comment on my inquiry. On 16 Jan 1999 John Straube wrote (in part); >...The cost of adding an inch of insulation in the cavity is far less >than of using an insulated CMU plus 2". So I would use normal block and 3" >of PUR, or 4" of rockwool or glass fibre to get R20. PUR has the major >advantage of providing a great air barrier and water barrier. In a well >insulated building air leakage can account for 1/3 to 1/2 of energy loss, >so a good air barrier MUST be provided. This can be a dedicated layer over >the CMU too of course. These are valuable observations. I am not familiar with the acronym PUR...could you enlighten me? >...One possibility is the use of a normal 8" conc block and an exterior >insulated finish system. It is less expensive to build than the brick >veneer, and can provide the same thermal performance. It does have some >potential exterior fire problems however, which you have to judge (not >necessarily that bad). In addition to the fire resistance problem (an important item in the owners brief) exterior insulated finish systems (EFIS) have an extremely poor record of performance, at least here in the US. Most responsible builders and contractors (and in my case reinforced by my insurance company which will not insure any project which uses EFIS) will not consider its use under any circumstances due to problems of water intrusion and retention. >Another possibilty is the use of a lightweight vented facade over >insulation, such as Hardi-plank over insulation, or metal panels, or even >wood cladding, depending on the needs and architectural program. The owners brief also mandates longevity and minimal maintenance of the exterior materials. The site is exposed to salt water so corrosion is a concern where metal is concerned and wood or Hardi-plank will require periodic and painting. Although the CMU would also require periodic cleaning and resealing, it seems that it would be less frequent and longer lived than wood or wood based products. Thanks again for your comments. Russel DeLombard ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 13:06:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26624 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:06:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15907; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:01:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:57:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15259 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:57:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15255 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:57:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA24119 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:57:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-wa40-51.ix.netcom.com(207.220.44.179) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma024045; Mon Jan 18 11:57:24 1999 Message-ID: <003001be42c8$9bd8c640$b32cdccf@upesi> From: "Russel DeLombard" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Thermal performance and CMU walls Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:54:57 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5842 Bion, Thank you for your thoughts. I have also read your prior input to this topic from late 1996. On 16 Jan 1999 Bion Howard wrote (in part): >Suggest you check out: CBIS Inc. ---- ---- >and review the technical information on pre-insulated CMU walls there. To >my knowledge CBIS (Concrete Block Insulating Systems) a subsidiary of WR >Grace located in Massachusetts, has the most complete array of thermal test >data supporting their R-value claims. Thank you for the referral. I had a Korfil brochure from several years ago, but I hadn't got around to contacting them yet. I sent a rmessage from the above web site requesting local suppliers for the Hi-R Wall System. >Also, in the Pacific Northwest, CMU's may be obtained made with pumice >aggregate which creates a lightweight block with nice architectural color. Also significant in that the density of the block appears to have a direct bearing on the R-value of any given wall configuration according to the technical information I have reviewed to date. >For aesthetics you could consider "split-face" or "split-ribbed" exposed >surfaces in your design...Sure beats the look of traditional "cinder block" walls. As I mentioned in my response to another lister, I am not a fan of split or ribbed faced block, especially for residential use and particularly for interior finishes... but I believe that by using colored and scored block with some thought given to the pattern of scoring and coursing that an attractive wall can be achieved. >Another source of information on CMU construction is the National Concrete >Masonry Association (NCMA) located in Herndon (Dulles), VA USA > ---- ---- >They have a wide array of information on CMU thermal performance, "mass" >data, and energy codes compliance info. I don't know if you have looked at that site recently, but I could find no useful about thermal performance or related data. I actually started there some time ago, before arriving at this list and I rechecked it after receiving your message, but unless I am missing something there is nothing there on those topics. Thanks again for your thoughts. Russel DeLombard ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 13:09:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26672 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:09:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16364; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:04:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:59:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15569 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:59:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA15565 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:59:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA24467 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:00:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-wa40-51.ix.netcom.com(207.220.44.179) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma024339; Mon Jan 18 11:59:28 1999 Message-ID: <003701be42c8$e5a8f420$b32cdccf@upesi> From: "Russel DeLombard" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Thermal performance/CMU walls Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 09:57:00 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5843 Ross, Thanks for taking the time for your comments. On 15 Jan 1999, Renewable News Network wrote (in part); >... you mention "extensive south glazing." If you are >contemplating glazing over concrete for a Trombe Wall, reconsider that >notion. If your glazing is part of a direct or indirect passive solar >configuration, couple the insolation with the thermal mass and run some >numbers on heat capacity and sensible temperature. This is a property with a primary view and exposure to the south...and it is a passive solar configuration...hence the composite concrete floor system. A Trombe Wall was never under consideration >The words "off grid heating" have implications that usually do not apply >to heating, but to electrical systems, being on or off the grid. I guess they have similar meaning to me since most heating here in the Pacific Northwest is electric. >...you refer to "heating supplied by a large high temperature wood/waste >oil water-jacketed boiler and SUPPLEMENTED with extensive south >glazing..." > >I would stress the latter, but you are quite right, in emphasizing the >importance of efficient thermal performance of the building envelope to >maximize the south wall gain. > >However, if the building were to tend toward "super-insulation" and the >best thermal performance, then the South facing solar opportunities would >become the main source of heat for space heat, and, of course, hot water, >too. > >The result would be the reversal of "main" heating and "supplementary" >heating. As efficiency, thermal performance, and solar participation go >up, the demand on "a large high temperature wood/waste oil water-jacketed >boiler" goes down. The size and expense of what is traditionally the >"main" heating plant goes down, too, from a budgeted line item of 5-8% of >the construction cost, to something less; and the oil-fired boiler >becomes more of an auxiliary form of heat energy, while the solar >efficiency of your building becomes a primary energy resource.> My point of view is conditioned by the limited solar access in the winter here in the Pacific Northwest. Unlike other parts of the country with lower average winter temperatures but better solar access (such as Colorado or Vermont) we often go days if not weeks at a time without any opporturnity for solar collection. The emphasis here has been to tend toward better insulation and providing for solar gain when available...but in the end, realistically speaking, heat and DHW will have to be provided by other than solar means. Thanks again for your thoughts on this. Russel DeLombard (rus_d@ix.netcom.com) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 13:15:34 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27758 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17677; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:10:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:06:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA16590 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:05:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16586 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:05:55 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id MSMIa03211 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:58:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6064b5c4.36a37645@aol.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 12:58:29 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Death to Drywall Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5844 In a message dated 99-01-18 11:29:53 EST, you write: << It strikes me that drywall is a classic low initial high life-cycle cost material. Any comments? >> I definitely don't like drywall --- used a combination of 1/2 plywood in my current house, also some spruce roofers (aka ceiling beadboard) on walls and ceiling and like both -- the patterns of the plywood are quite restful as to customer acceptance, house currently for sale for $262000 so I guess I'll find out (course also have concrete floors and assorted other atypical things ) as to drywall recycling - I thought drywall was fine for the ground ??? Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 13:16:14 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27775 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:16:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17812; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:11:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:06:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA16643 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:06:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu (eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.223]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA16622; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:06:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin123.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.133]) by eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/) with SMTP id KAA26910; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:07:11 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36A377CB.944@uidaho.edu> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 10:04:59 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: heat capacity of road gravel References: <36A29BE2.139D@centuryinter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5845 Thought I'd reply and spell RT (r-o-...) Heat capacity = mass volume x density x specific heat. I'll take a guess as to the density of your 'compacted rock' as somewhere around 100 lb/cu.ft. Specific heat of a mass material of this density is about 0.22 Btu/lb-F ('scuse the missing 'degree' symbol). Hence. heat capacity of your gravel in question is 22 btu/cu.ft.-F. Of course, the location and configuration of your mass is also important esp. if used passively. In other words, make sure the mass surface 'sees' the radiant source as well as occupants. Because of the relatively low conductance of rock, increase the surface area, not the thickness to achieve necessary mass. Check out any one of the many reference texts on this subject. I keep a copy of Mechanical and Electrical Equipment for Buildings (MEEB) handy (next to the door). According to architecture students, the book is best suited as an expensive door stop - so check out the used bookstores near architecture schools. Co-written by Stein and Reynolds (John Reynolds of Univ. of Oregon - assisted with plastered sb distributed mass research as I recall - check the archives) If you plaster the interior of your bales, you are using a well distributed mass of equivalent heat capacity (0.19-0.24 btu/lb-F) in approx. 1.5-2" thickness (ideal for mediating diurnal swings). Kurt Rathmann Moscow, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 13:31:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA29823 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:31:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19233; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:26:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:22:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18931 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:22:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18915 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from sover.net (pm0a6.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.134]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA02298; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:23:34 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) sover.net from pm0a6.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.134] 209.198.93.134 Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:23:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36A37D13.4FACD401@sover.net> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:27:31 -0500 From: Cindy Blakeslee Organization: The Center for Sustainble Building (Vermont) dba Residuum X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GrenSheltr@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Death to Drywall References: <6064b5c4.36a37645@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5846 Linda et al: Ground up drywall is apparently ok as a soil amendment; it is when it is mixed with certain types of municipal solid waste in a landfill (particularly a lined landfill) that it has the potential for generating toxic gas. There was a big tado over this at a landfill in southern Vermont in recent years... this also means that if drywall is ground up to use as kitty litter, for example, when you dispose of that litter in the regular trash it has the potential for the problem above. Hence my rather bold suggestion that drywall be done away with. And remember that all unclean drywall (with paint on it etc.) ends up in landfills when renovations or demolitions occur. It's not as evil as PVC but its not as benign as we might like to think it is... (Some manufacturers are taking back scrap drywall to grind up and use in the manufacture of new drywall, but with such manufacturers being widely spaced transportation and its inherent problems are invoked). Over lunch I was thinking that in response to my previous missive some of you might be thinking that my suggestion for eliminating walls doesn't account for things which are currently IN walls, such as electric wires and ductwork. These are not fatal problems, especially in new construction. For example, outlets can be place in floors (or solar-charged battery operated items used), and lots of the ductwork could be eliminated because the air flow (and heat flow) between rooms would be eliminated (especially with radiant floor heating). Interior or exterior SB walls (even knee walls) can accomodate outlets and water pipes with a little careful planning, or false upright box beams created to accomodate such items. Heresy!!! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 13:41:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00123 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:41:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19986; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:36:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:32:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19632 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:32:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19626 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:32:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-14-183.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.130.183]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA19038 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:33:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 13:37:41 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE42E7.B85C7C20.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: RE: GBlist: The Furnace Free House in Vermont Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:28:39 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5847 I read the nice dialogue that Marc, Dana and Amory had on the furnace free home and was very impressed. I was struck by how real (maybe because it was:) this dialogue was. It is something I can so often relate to. Normally it is not Amory Lovins in my design dialogues though. I could relate to both sides -- Marc who has to do the numbers and design, and Amory who is trying to keep a broad view, provide a high target. Amory's role of keeping an objective view is very important to offset a designer who gets so far into the project they loose perspective. I know I do this all the time. Marc did a fantastic job of explaining and justifying. I hope I can one day do it so well. I hope Ms Meadows realizes how lucky she is (unless Marc is charging $200/hr -- unlikely in engineering). Marc alluded to one point that I think is critical and deserve more time. In very EE houses, the energy balance becomes quite sensitive, and the amount of internal gains in the house become critical. To build a true no heat house for an arbitrary client one would need to design it to have a SURPLUS of heat. Why? As Marc pointed out, he used average weather data, not the worst year. He also spent some time playing with internal gains, air leakage, etc. Regradless of how you design, the results have a variation -- design 0.3 ACH@50 and you get, if lucky, 0.3 +/-0.2. The difference in internal gains between an active family with 2 children, and a retired couple can be huge. The preformance specs of equipment varies from that published, etc etc. All of the above means that a zero-energy house, any energy system in fact, must have some means of balancing input and output with time. Thermal mass works well for small temporal variations (and in fact this is the prime energy saving feature of mass in cold climates), but longer term surpluses or shortfalls need other means, such as seasonal storage (eg ten thousand gallons of water, etc) etc. The problem with summer overheating become serious with a house that relies so much on internal gains for heat. An alternative approach is to intentionally design the house with a shortfall (eg heating needed) and provide this with some form of controllable energy. Stored wood energy makes a lot of sense to me in Vermont! >From an economic point of view there is little doubt that the low energy, not zero energy approach wins in almost all situations, especially if one considers the extra design time to get to zero energy. Finally, is greenbuilding not about reducing our impact on the world? Where is the balance of resources consumed in maintenance and construction versus energy in use. Maybe this project was a demonstration and so this balance is not so important, but one has to be careful not to loose site of the global goal by focussing on one target -- wether that target be space heating energy, total energy consumption,etc. >From a practical point of view I take it for granted the "greenest" soultion in your situtation is small back up heat. I am surpised that two approaches were not considered. 1) highly earth-bermed houses, like Earthships but highly insulated (say R20+ walls) might be a way to get closer to zero energy without a lot of expensive technology. Of course, this entails aesthetic compromises. Many earthship owners claim zero or low energy in harsh climates, and they can have very few moving parts etc. But the same problem of balancing zero energy comes into play (I know the sloped glazing they use is madness, but I mean the concept of earth berming and highmass interior walls, with 20%+ south windows). 2) superwindows such as R11 centre of glass often dont cut the cost-benefit analysis. I would prefer something reasonably available, like triple-glazed 2 low-e, krypton, PLUS night shutters. If the occupants care about the low energy concept, night insulation should work well and dramatically cut energy loss while increasing solar gain (in fact, double glazed may provide more energy depending on climate). At the right price I'd use a fixed super window in North, East,West walls This turned into a long post, but I thought there were so many important issues in that dialogue that I needed to vent. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 15:03:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04319 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:03:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25990; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:58:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:54:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25497 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:53:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25488 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:53:43 -0500 (EST) From: IdahoCFM@aol.com Received: from IdahoCFM@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id XNJPa19752 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:53:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:53:45 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Flyash concrete use and workability report Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5848 Hi folks, I've been watching this flyash debate with some interest, as many of our projects in the inland NW are done with concrete tilt-up construction, a perfect opportunity for including flyash concrete. I posed this question to one of our bigger regional contractors about what his experience has been in the functional side of this product. His response follows. Can anyone out there speak to some of the finishing difficulties he's mentioned in the response? Those pose some serious roadblocks to flyash concrete ever seeing major use on our jobs if they're true. Chris Meyer Parkwood Business Properties Marty's response: Chris, We do have some experience working with flyash, particularly at the Boise Airport Parking Garage. Typically it is used, as stated below, as a replacement to portland cement in a concrete mix design. The "state-of-the- art" concrete designs (high rise construction, used in columns) can reach compressive strengths of 12,000 psi. This has some economic advantage, as the same size (area) column can be utilized from roof to basement, with the mix design progressively increasing in strength at the lower levels. Around here, we are seeing some of the ready-mix suppliers using flyash in their mix designs. One problem that I know of is that flyash doesn't seem to enjoy the same quality control procedures as does portland cement, potentially causing inconsistencies in cured strength. Another is availability. Flyash is a byproduct of coal-fired power plants (high or low sulfur coal) and a reliable distribution system is not yet in place. A third concern is workability. We here from our finishers that the slabs don't behave predictably during finishing operations. I believe that is why most of the flyash is used in structural concrete, as opposed to flnish floor slabs. This seems a "chicken and egg" analogy. In order for flyash to develop as a viable and acceptable replacement for portland cement, it must first enjoy the acceptance of the design engineers, and be specified. Engineers, as you know, are conservative folks, and change is anathema to most. So, the question is, how does a potential distributor of flyash capitalize a huge distribution system before it knows if the engineers will specifiy it's product? The distribution system is necessary to obtain widespread data from in-place construction. Tough issue, but similar to many environmentally "green" solutions, yes? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 15:05:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04360 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:05:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26247; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:00:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:56:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25811 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:56:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (cdrom.nahbrc.org [38.201.56.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25807 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:56:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM by rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ca082240 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:47:19 -0500 From: "Peter Yost" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:57:04 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: drywall recycling X-Info: NT Mail Server Message-Id: <22471918700129@NAHBRC.ORG> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5849 1. Order a copy of the Research Center's Residential Construction Waste Management: A Builder's Field Guide (used to be free with funding for printing from EPA, now must be paid for - $12). Drywall recycling is discussed in detail, including a useful appendix on drywall as a soil amendment. 2. The Research Center is just completing the final report on a project in Indiana where clean scrap wood, drywall, and cardboard were ground and land-applied--cooperative project with the local home builders association and the Indiana DEM. Report available from IDEM or the Research Center soon. The report examines the environmental, technological, and economic feasibility of using a mobile, self-contained grinder to land apply these three benign or benficial waste materials in terms of soil amending. 3. The California Integrated Waste Management Board (CIWMB) has great fact sheets and summaries on many construction waste management issues, including drywall. Check out their web site: http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/condemo/ Peter Yost pyost@nahbrc.org 301-249-4000 x542 http://www.nahbrc.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 15:45:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04940 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:45:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA28712; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:40:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:36:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28220 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:36:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28211 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:36:00 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id KRYTa05322 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:36:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4633d5c2.36a39b54@aol.com> Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:36:36 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Waterfall Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5850 In a message dated 1/18/99 2:03:01 AM, owner-greenbuilding-digest@crest.org writes: >Has anyone on the list had any experience with the Waterfall brand of >rain-gutter leaf guards? I made comments on this the last time this was discussed: The function of gutters is to take the water from the roof, collect it, and the transfer it a drain which then will take it far from the foundation and footers. These units do not function in this capacity. (I like to think of them like a trash compactor, it turns twenty pounds of garbage into twenty pounds of garbage). Making roof run off into a spray solves nothing as far as getting water away from the foundation. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Inc. Contractors, Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 16:48:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA05697 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:48:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02556; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:43:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:39:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA02185 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:38:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA02181 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:38:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on8-83.netcom.ca [209.146.133.83]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA02255; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:38:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990118161123.009a5240@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 16:36:12 -0400 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" From: Norbert Senf Subject: RE: GBlist: The Furnace Free House in Vermont Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <01BE42E7.B85C7C20.jfstraube@golden.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5851 At 11:28 AM 18/01/99 -0500, John Straube wrote: >I read the nice dialogue that Marc, Dana and Amory had on the furnace free >home and was very impressed. (snip) >An alternative approach is to intentionally design the house with a >shortfall (eg heating needed) and provide this with some form of >controllable energy. Stored wood energy makes a lot of sense to me in >Vermont! I was impressed with this dialogue as well. It does indeed sound as if the furnace-less house in Vermont needs a stove! One option that might be worth putting on the table is a small woodfired range (cookstove). We've been living with one for 25 years, and I wouldn't want to be without it. However, they are not for everyone - you need to have dry wood in the woodshed, and you need kindling. (Easier said than done - it took me about 10 years to get around to building a woodshed). Wamsler (Germany) has a line of very nice, reasonably priced, cookstoves. We've got their catalogue online at http://mha-net.org/msb/docs/wamsler.pdf We've imported a few of the very small ones (24" X 24" top) over the years, which are designed to pop into a simple masonry surround. Clients are very happy with them - the oven performs much better than on our antique. I believe they have a distributor in the U.S. They have some nice options, such as a waterjacket and an insulated fold-down lid. This allows you to fire the stove for breakfast, even in the summer, heat up your hot water tank, and then insulate the top. As far as system cost goes, I'd consider a cheap 4" concrete block chimney with a refractory (Refratco brand) flue liner. An eighth inch coat of super-elastomeric stucco (Stuccoflex, 206-885-5085) and you're done. In our own house, there is enough mass (6" hollow cmu walls) that we can use our old, low-tech stove in the summer if we feel like it with little effect on house temperature. In this climate (similar to Vermont) summer nighttime cooling works very well with a moderate-to-high mass house. A big benefit of low energy houses is very little temperature stratification, so heat distribution is usually no effort, particularly in a small house. Add some thermal mass and then spikes from intermittent burns are easily soaked up. During the heating season, for example, you'd fire your cookstove for one meal per day, heat your water, and then let your house take care of the rest. Best..........Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 17:16:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA06018 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:16:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA05238; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:11:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:07:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA04479 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:06:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA04460 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:06:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-31-40.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.134.40]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA13693; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:06:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:10:47 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE4305.7DE66060.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Richard Kadulski'" , "terrain@cow-net.com" Cc: greenbuilding Subject: RE: GBlist: no roof ventilation Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:04:15 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5852 On Monday, January 18, 1999 12:15 PM, Richard Kadulski [SMTP:kadulski@direct.ca] wrote: Thanks for the well done on-line summary of the report Richard! You were rather soft in saying that there is little sceitific basis for the vent requirements for roofing -- they are in fact based on next to nothing, and Bill Rose's description of their historical development is great humour! I suppose in short, I would summarize this and other attic ventilation research as: 1. Attic ventilation is not needed if the roof is built properly (eg. this is why we dont vent flat roofs on the millions of acres of flat roofs) 2. Attic ventilation is useful if the ceiling air barrier is flawed, or insulation levels too low at the eaves, or lots of built in moisture or rain leaks 3. The colder and/or drier and/or sunnier the climate, the more useful the same amount of attic ventilation is when need for 2. Did I miss anything? ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 19:59:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08232 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:59:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA15584; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:54:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:49:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA14776 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:49:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA14768 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:49:22 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ504036; Mon, 18 Jan 99 17:50:13 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA117218; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:50:10 -0700 Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 17:50:09 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Patrick Pierquet Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Flyash In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5853 Patrick, Richard: Have you ever tried to get flyash from a coal generating plant? Have you ever worked with it? Have you ever talked to the workers at the plant? And since when is cadmium and arsenic clean or natural? And those are only two of the byproducts of combustion. Please update me on the other clean byproducts of coal combustion that I listed the other day. Jorg Ostrowski ________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Patrick Pierquet wrote: > > > Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:18:10 -0500 > > From: Jillanna Babb > > Subject: RE: GBlist: Use of flyash in concrete > > > > Greetings! > > What kind of dangerous byproducts come with flyash as a result of coal > > fired generating plants? I am very interested in the past research > > mentioned below... > > We use flyash (in AAC), but it has been tested and is clean. Flyash > > varies due to differing sources of coal... > > What similar work that predates Mehta's are you referring to? I am eager > > to learn... I work with flyash, and would certainly like to avoid any > > dangers that may be involved. > > Thanks > > Jillanna Babb-Cheshul > > > > > > > Jillanna - Flyash from coal, in most cases, is a very clean product. > Several years ago, it was declared an inert material by the U.S. EPA. There > are a lot of unsubstantiated horror stories being passed around, regarding > flyash. You are correct in asking for documentation...most people who > spread the horror stories cannot provide it. > > - Patrick Pierquet > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 19:59:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA08262 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:59:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA15642; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:54:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:50:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA14967 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:50:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA14961 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:50:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id SAA00442 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 18:50:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from vna-va10-23.ix.netcom.com(207.223.177.151) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma029731; Mon Jan 18 18:43:50 1999 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990118194123.0073ab48@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 19:41:26 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Thermal performance and CMU walls Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5854 Thermal Performance info at NCMA --------------------------------------- Currently, NCMA does not provide free information on their site. Many of their publications can be obtained via their local member block plants, too. Look via their "catalog search" function (secure database program): (( note that page is not directly linked to NCMA front page )) -------- Under "R-value": * R-Values of Multi-Wythe Concrete Masonry Walls, TEK 6-1A $1.00 * R-Values for Single Wythe Concrete Masonry Walls, TEK 6-2A $1.00 -------- Under "Thermal": * Thermal Bridges in Wall Construction, TEK 6-13A $1.00 * Thermal Mass Handbook, Concrete & Masonry Design Provisions Using ASHRAE/IES Standard 90.1-1989, This publication contains information for design professionals on the energy performance of concrete and masonry walls and how to best utilize the thermal mass provisions of ASHRAE Standard 90.1, Energy Efficient Design of New Buildings Except Low-Rise Residential Buildings, for optimum energy efficiency. The handbook contains an overview of all of the requirements of Standard 90.1, with particular emphasis on the provisions for thermal mass construction, such as concrete and masonry. Design data with examples are included throughout the text. 110 pages TR-138 $20.00 * Concrete Masonry R-Value Program - Based on the ASHRAE Handbook of Fundamentals, this Lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheet calculates the R-value of concrete masonry in accordance with the series- parallel (isothermal planes) method. The program was developed to provide a tool to evaluate the thermal resistance of concrete masonry wall systems. PC compatible. (disk) CMS 10911 $125.00 -------- Under "insulation": * NCMA Guide for Home Buyers and Home Builders on Residential Concrete Masonry Basement Walls (Brochure) TR 134 $7.50 This brochure addresses basement construction, design, waterproofing and insulation strategies in-depth and provides guidance to home owners as well as builders. It is printed in full-color with numerous photographs and drawings. As a companion, a four-color, eight-panel pamphlet highlights the benefits of concrete masonry basements for new home buyers. (cover image: ) ------------ Another unlisted source is __Manual of Facts on Concrete Masonry__, in which numerous TEK (technical) notes are provided on various CMU performance aspects. Why not give them a call (703) 713-1900 Fax. (703) 713-1910 --------- >>Another source of information on CMU construction is the National Concrete >>Masonry Association (NCMA) located in Herndon (Dulles), VA USA >> ---- ---- >>They have a wide array of information on CMU thermal performance, "mass" >>data, and energy codes compliance info. > >I don't know if you have looked at that site recently, but I could find no >useful about thermal performance or related data. I actually started there >some time ago, before arriving at this list and I rechecked it after >receiving your message, but unless I am missing something there is nothing >there on those topics. >Russel DeLombard | =O= Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 22:39:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA10087 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:39:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24023; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:34:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:29:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA23709 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:29:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA23705 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:29:22 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id CXLAa01433 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:26:06 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 22:26:06 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Windows: What really matters..and flyash, where's the beef?? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 214 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5855 In a message dated 1/14/99 7:33:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, stephen@thermotechwindows.com writes: << New materials like fibreglass, cellular vinyl, ABS and a host of wood composites are showing up as both entire windows and as components in hybrid windows >> I believe the wood composites you are referring to are the relatively new application of recycled plastic and sawdust that seem to be performing very well. I know of one company in Texas AERT that is distributed by Weyerhauser and is doing remarkably well. I asked them to develop a crown moulding for a client but they have no time due to backorders. they have decking and a window product. Ask Jeeves Answer: EBN - AERT ChoiceDek Review On the flyash issue...I've have never found any technical tests on flyash that would lead me to question it's use as an additive in cement. Does anyone have lab tests of coal flyash that show it to be a hazardous material? The contractors and ready mix operators that I have had contact with have said it strengthens the mix and the concrete dries faster...two critical performance factors...following are two sites that may be of help or have additional links... http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Features/CemConc/CementConc.html Ask Jeeves Answer: American Coal Ash Association ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 18 23:54:28 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11114 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:54:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA27578; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:49:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:45:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA27257 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:45:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA27247 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:45:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-04-164.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.128.164]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA28959; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:45:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 23:50:06 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE433D.4625C8E0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Jorg D. Ostrowski'" , "'Patrick Pierquet'" Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: Flyash Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:31:49 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5856 On Monday, January 18, 1999 7:50 PM, Jorg D. Ostrowski [SMTP:jdo@ucalgary.ca] wrote: > Patrick, Richard: Have you ever tried to get flyash from a coal generating > plant? Have you ever worked with it? Have you ever talked to the workers at > the plant? And since when is cadmium and arsenic clean or natural? > And those are only two of the byproducts of combustion. Please update me While I have not tried to purchase fly ash myself (about as useful as trying to buy cement at the plant), I do know that one can measure the heavy metal content of fly ash, the radoactivity etc. and one can then decide on this analysis on your course of action. Since Ms Babb is in the throes of starting an AAC plant, I think she should make this a priority item to calm the nerves of people such as Jorg. BTW, fly ash is used by the millions of tons in Europe for various products, and is regularily tested for dangerous contents to assuage these concerns. Radioactive raw materials (they gave off radon, and lots of it) were unknowingly used in some AAC products around WW2 in Sweden, and the houses had to be retrofit. Since then, and with growing concern for healthy housing, manufacturers of AAC and sand-lime bricks have been very careful with the levels of nasties. Aluminum, a major part of cement, is also a dangerous heavy metal, but in cement form it is inert. Similarily, arsenic and cadmium (the former used as an anti-cancer drug and the latter a supplement in my mulit-vitamins) are also a concern, but only if they are free to enter my body in excess. Eating flyash, or licking cement floors is definitely a concern for me because of the possibility of leaching so I avoid these activities and use flyash and cement for floors, columns, blocks etc. While I am not all hot about the use of flyash, all evidence I have seen to date gives me no grounds to be concerned for my health or that of the environments. Perhaps reputable test data of flyash contents and leacha bility would help us all to decide . Well Ms Babb .. what the possibility? ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 00:23:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11426 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:23:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA29038; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:18:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:15:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA28660 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:14:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA28656 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:14:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-0-102.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.0.102]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA16501; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:15:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36A416F5.CBE34F49@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:24:05 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GrenSheltr@aol.com, Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Death to Drywall References: <6064b5c4.36a37645@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5857 Hi Linda, What did you fasten with? Did you countersink and fill or leave heads exposed? What did you finish it with? Any stain, oil or paint? Did you just abut the boards nicely? Tongue and Groove? How was the 'effort' when you got to cutting the finishing pieces? What did you cut with? What did you do at external corners? So many questions . Answer what you like. N P.S. Where is the house (you told me the price and I wanted to put it in perspective.) GrenSheltr@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 99-01-18 11:29:53 EST, you write: > > << It strikes me that drywall is a classic low initial high life-cycle cost > material. Any > comments? > >> > > I definitely don't like drywall --- used a combination of 1/2 plywood in my > current house, also some spruce roofers (aka ceiling beadboard) on walls and > ceiling and like both -- the patterns of the plywood are quite restful as to > customer acceptance, house currently for sale for $262000 so I guess I'll find > out (course also have concrete floors and assorted other atypical things ) > as to drywall recycling - I thought drywall was fine for the ground ??? > Linda Lloyd > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 00:25:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11450 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:25:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA29130; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:20:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:16:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA28735 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:15:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA28728 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:15:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-0-102.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.0.102]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA16668; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:16:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36A41742.28521985@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:25:22 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" CC: "'Richard Kadulski'" , "terrain@cow-net.com" , greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: no roof ventilation References: <01BE4305.7DE66060.jfstraube@golden.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5858 I want to ask for a small bit of clarification on this roof ventalation thing. (I was planning on putting in a couple vents on an old, recently re-insulated (blown cellulose in the attic) Victiorian home.) Does this sound right: 1) If your doing new construction (good building envelope) then you might not need roof vents. 2) If your insulating an old attic in an old building and, even if you try and do a good job, you probably should put in roof vents. - I particularily thought this would be true in climates where melting snow can easily freeze up on eaves or eavestroughs and do the ice dam thing. In other words the main reason for the vents not being 'moisture control' but melting control so that the snow doesn't melt until the temperature is warm enough for it to melt into flowing eavestroughs. (I was particularily thinking that low cold intake vents at the soffits and a big high output at the top of the roof to get rid of the warm air.) Disabuse me if necessary. N John Straube wrote: > > On Monday, January 18, 1999 12:15 PM, Richard Kadulski > [SMTP:kadulski@direct.ca] wrote: > Thanks for the well done on-line summary of the report Richard! > You were rather soft in saying that there is little sceitific basis for the > vent requirements for roofing -- they are in fact based on next to nothing, > and Bill Rose's description of their historical development is great > humour! > > I suppose in short, I would summarize this and other attic ventilation > research as: > 1. Attic ventilation is not needed if the roof is built properly (eg. this > is why we dont vent flat roofs on the millions of acres of flat roofs) > 2. Attic ventilation is useful if the ceiling air barrier is flawed, or > insulation levels too low at the eaves, or lots of built in moisture or > rain leaks > 3. The colder and/or drier and/or sunnier the climate, the more useful the > same amount of attic ventilation is when need for 2. > > Did I miss anything? > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube > Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group > 165 Albert St University of Waterloo > Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. > Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 > Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 > Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 00:44:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11758 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:44:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA29932; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:39:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:36:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA29597 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:35:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from whidbey.whidbey.com (ns.whidbey.com [204.94.52.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA29593 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 00:35:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.94.52.214] (bcs1-52-214.whidbey.com [204.94.52.214]) by whidbey.whidbey.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19573 for ; Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:35:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199901190535.VAA19573@whidbey.whidbey.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.0c (197) Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 21:42:08 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Straw/Clay walls From: "The Cyrs" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5859 My wife and I are now considering straw/clay walls for our timber frame house that we will be building this year. (We got a letter from Agriboard saying that they just couldn't give us material for our home because they have to stick to their business plan of standard floorplan layouts.) So,I have some questions: I'd like to hear from anyone who currently lives in a house with this kind of wall construction: how do the walls perform thermally and insulatively? (what is your climate?) how did you finish them? earth plaster? would you do this kind of construction again? what were the pitfalls? estimate of the expense? what was the 'goo' recipe? did you wing it or did you have an 'expert' help you out? Words of encouragement would be gratefully received. Any web sites would be wonderful. Describe your permitting process. I understand that there are very few of these houses in the entire country. Is that right? Any other general comments? Craig Cyr Whidbey Island, Washington state ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 08:05:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA14622 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:05:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA10776; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:00:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:56:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA10490 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:56:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA10486 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:56:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA24986 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:56:31 -0600 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:54:19 -0600 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: Flyash again Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:54:19 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5860 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-greenbuilding-digest@crest.org > [SMTP:owner-greenbuilding-digest@crest.org] > Sent: Monday, January 18, 1999 11:36 PM > To: greenbuilding-digest@crest.org > Subject: greenbuilding-digest V2 #458 > > > Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:53:45 EST > From: IdahoCFM@aol.com > Subject: GBlist: Flyash concrete use and workability report > > Hi folks, > > I've been watching this flyash debate with some interest, as many of our > projects in the inland NW are done with concrete tilt-up construction, a > perfect opportunity for including flyash concrete. I posed this question > to > one of our bigger regional contractors about what his experience has been > in > the functional side of this product. His response follows. Can anyone out > there speak to some of the finishing difficulties he's mentioned in the > response? Those pose some serious roadblocks to flyash concrete ever > seeing > major use on our jobs if they're true. > > > Chris Meyer > Parkwood Business Properties > > > Chris - One of the best practical discussions of the use of flyash in concrete is printed in "Design and Control of Concrete Mixtures", published by the Portland Cement Assoc.(pp. 68-73 in the 13th edition)....I've also included a few other references below, if you want to dig deeper. Not all flyash is suitable for use in concrete mixtures - As I understand it, the chemistry of coal-derived flyash can vary a lot, depending on source of the coal, and how it was burned.The ASTM classifies flyash into three categories, depending on its reactivity with portland cement hydration products....Class C, F and N. I suppose the workability of the concrete will vary, depending on the type of flyash being used in the mix. According to the Portland Cement Association, the general effects of flyash additions to concrete are: a) Reduced water requirement, for the same workability; b) improved workability; c) Slower setting times, and reduced heat of hydration, d) improved pumpability; e) less segregation and bleeding. Hope this helps. - Patrick Pierquet See also: Berry, E.E., and V.M. Malhotra, 1980. "Fly ash for use in concrete - a critical review". Jour. of the Amer. Concrete Inst., Mar-April, p. 59-73. Helmuth, R.A. 1987. "Fly ash in cement and concrete". Publ. #SP040T, Portland Cement Assoc. Ramachandran, V.S. 1984. "Concrete Admixtures Handbook". Noyes Publ. "Fly Ash, Silica Fume, Slag and Natural Pozzolans in Concrete". 1986. Publ. SP-91, Amer. Concrete Institute. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 08:26:37 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA14811 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:26:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11569; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:21:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:17:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11286 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:17:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA11282 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA25121 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:17:38 -0600 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:15:26 -0600 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: EPA's view on coal flyash Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:15:25 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5861 Regarding the EPA and coal flyash, here's the reference I mentioned in an earlier post. - Patrick Pierquet EPA TO CONTINUE CLASSIFYING COAL ASH AS NON-HAZARDOUS WASTE UNDER RCRA The Energy Report, August 16, 1993 v21 i31 pN/A Full Text Coal-fired utilities can breathe a sigh of relief now that the Environmental Protection Agency has ruled officially that fly ash, bottom ash, boiler slag and scrubber sludge are not hazardous wastes. The agency earlier this month issued a rule that exempts those wastes from regulation under the hazardous waste category, Subtitle C, of the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act. EPA says, though, it will still consider how those wastes should be treated under the non-hazardous industrial waste portion of RCRA (Subtitle D). The rule takes effect Sept. 2 and applies to any power plant that burns a fuel mix of 50% or more coal, except for fluidized bed combustion plants. FBC plants are excluded because coal is burned with limestone in FBC applications, resulting in alkaline wastes high in sulfur. For more information, call EPA's RCRA/Superfund hot line, 800-424-9346, or Patti Whiting, 703-308-8421. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 08:30:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA14827 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:30:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA11911; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:25:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:22:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA11582 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:21:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA11578 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:21:38 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ520426; Tue, 19 Jan 99 06:22:42 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA62112; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:22:31 -0700 Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 06:22:31 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Patrick Pierquet Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Flyash again In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5862 Patrick: Which of your references addresses indoor air quality or health which is under discussion? The structural aspects of flyash are not under discussion. Until a MSDS or any other report clears flyash of any health risk, my policy of prudent avoidance will keep flyash out of reach of workers, basements, and slabs. Please present evidence that will change my mind or clear the air. Thanks for considering my request. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 09:03:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15302 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:03:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA13035; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:58:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:54:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA12793 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:54:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (Y5AjCjdJU3KIEeCIa4fXjzJHsPsZOx1t@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA12789 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:54:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (emMY8B4YD6szIt6bPaumqynD2e5zpnCB@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA09190; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:55:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA09919; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:55:45 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36A48EB3.DD1571F@gs.net> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:54:59 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: Patrick Pierquet , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Flyash References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5863 But of course arsenic and cadmium are natural. Cadmium is an element... how much more natural can one get?? Though I do not think that I would want either one of them to be in direct contact with my body. :) SteveP "Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: > Patrick, Richard: Have you ever tried to get flyash from a coal generating > plant? Have you ever worked with it? Have you ever talked to the workers at > the plant? And since when is cadmium and arsenic clean or natural? > And those are only two of the byproducts of combustion. Please update me > on the other clean byproducts of coal combustion that I listed the other > day. Jorg Ostrowski > ________________________________________________________________________ > On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Patrick Pierquet wrote: > > > > > Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:18:10 -0500 > > > From: Jillanna Babb > > > Subject: RE: GBlist: Use of flyash in concrete > > > > > > Greetings! > > > What kind of dangerous byproducts come with flyash as a result of coal > > > fired generating plants? I am very interested in the past research > > > mentioned below... > > > We use flyash (in AAC), but it has been tested and is clean. Flyash > > > varies due to differing sources of coal... > > > What similar work that predates Mehta's are you referring to? I am eager > > > to learn... I work with flyash, and would certainly like to avoid any > > > dangers that may be involved. > > > Thanks > > > Jillanna Babb-Cheshul > > > > > > > > > > > Jillanna - Flyash from coal, in most cases, is a very clean product. > > Several years ago, it was declared an inert material by the U.S. EPA. There > > are a lot of unsubstantiated horror stories being passed around, regarding > > flyash. You are correct in asking for documentation...most people who > > spread the horror stories cannot provide it. > > > > - Patrick Pierquet > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 09:16:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15468 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:16:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13719; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:11:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:07:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13383 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:07:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (sx1aT4NFAY5K0MP7oTww/JkoGLn3eowb@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13379 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:07:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (ymfvU/vUjVc5d6IVm8/tTKvIzpXy5End@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA10113 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:08:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA10591 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:08:20 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36A491A6.C3FDF7DD@gs.net> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 08:07:34 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Buyer beware Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5864 Just talked to a friend who had a sheet rock horror story. He was working on a house, and found several boards of sheet rock in an appropriate place. He was working on re-shingling the house. The front half had plywood sheathing, and the back half was a roofers nightmare. When he feel through the sheet rock that had been laid as sheathing../// He was lucky he did not break anything. Just a thought for those who are remodeling... Watch were you step. It is often a thrill to see what jack leg mechanics do to places... SteveP ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 09:23:41 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15564 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:23:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14157; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:18:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:14:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13856 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:14:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13851 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:14:39 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ315160; Tue, 19 Jan 99 07:15:45 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA102830; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:15:19 -0700 Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 07:15:19 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: John Straube Cc: "'Patrick Pierquet'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: Flyash In-Reply-To: <01BE433D.4625C8E0.jfstraube@golden.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5865 John: I would strongly suggest you get some hands-on experience with flyash to see what you think of flyash from a health risk point of view. Perhaps you can get satisfactory answers to health related questions from a supplier? Perhaps talking to the workers at a coal-burning power plant who are responsible for the flyash may be very interesting. Just a few practical suggestions. I have and that is why prudent avoidance is the order of the day, for now, until I see evidence to the contrary. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 10:11:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17337 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:11:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16795; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:06:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:02:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16161 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:01:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16154 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:01:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS53-01-41.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.137.41]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA28802; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:06:58 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE4393.732C7720.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Patrick Pierquet'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: No flyash in slabs? Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:06:39 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5866 Flyash is probably not often used in slabs, becuase it is not deemed necessary to do so. Most fly ash in North America is being used to improve the properties of regular Portland cement concrete. Eg, engineers specify it to increase strength and pumpability, reduce permeability, etc, not as a replacement for PC. Hence, there is less reason to use flyash in suspended slabs, which are often low strength, 30 MPa/5000psi, whereas it is useful in columns (we poured 90 MPa/15000 psi columns years ago in Toronto) and in bridge decks. I have heard the same finishing concerns with flyash in bridge decks, but it is widely beleived (with no hard evidence) that this is because a mix with flyash is likely high performance and hence low water to cement ratio. Flyash should, theoretically, increase workability. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 10:11:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17346 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:11:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16840; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:06:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:02:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16167 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:01:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16152 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:01:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS53-01-41.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.137.41]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA28775; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:02:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:06:55 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE4393.714EDD80.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Jorg D. Ostrowski'" Cc: "'Patrick Pierquet'" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: RE: Flyash Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:00:37 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5867 On Tuesday, January 19, 1999 9:15 AM, Jorg D. Ostrowski [SMTP:jdo@ucalgary.ca] wrote: > John: I would strongly suggest you get some hands-on experience with > flyash to see what you think of flyash from a health risk point of view. Jorg: I would strongly suggest that you 1. provide valid hands-on real-world results from a test lab that support your health risk claims or 2. provide a rational and reasoned argument why we should all take precautions until such data is available. I have seen a copy of a full chemical analysis in Germany (including heavy metals) and when compared to the same chemical content in virgin soil, nothing untoward stuck out. Suppositions, even insinuations are fine to get one thinking, but where is the meat of the argument? ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 10:11:52 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17360 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:11:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16888; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:06:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:02:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16195 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:02:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16189 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:02:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS53-01-41.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.137.41]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA28747; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:02:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:06:50 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE4393.6E64B5E0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca'" Cc: "'Richard Kadulski'" , "terrain@cow-net.com" , greenbuilding Subject: RE: GBlist: no roof ventilation Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:58:49 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5868 On Tuesday, January 19, 1999 12:25 AM, Neil Spiegel [SMTP:nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca] wrote: > I want to ask for a small bit of clarification on this roof ventalation thing. (I was > planning on putting in a couple vents on an old, recently re-insulated (blown cellulose in > the attic) Victiorian home.) > 2) If your insulating an old attic in an old building and, even if you try and do a good > job, you probably should put in roof vents. > - I particularily thought this would be true in climates where melting snow can easily > freeze up on eaves or eavestroughs and do the ice dam thing. In other words the main > reason for the vents not being 'moisture control' but melting control so that the snow > doesn't melt until the temperature is warm enough for it to melt into flowing > eavestroughs. (I was particularily thinking that low cold intake vents at the soffits and > a big high output at the top of the roof to get rid of the warm air.) I would agree with you. Control of ice damming is one important benefit of ventilation (CMHC has a report of field monitoring of houses that confirm this) and diluting and removing air leakage moisture is the other benefit. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 10:30:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17783 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18140; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:25:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:21:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA17593 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:20:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from AICS.NET (aics.net [209.21.198.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA17589 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:20:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.21.198.35] ([209.21.198.35]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 6528700 ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:31:14 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:21:55 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: GB List: Straw/Clay in Maine Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5869 Eric Thompson Olsen of Earthstar Energy Systems in Maine has built some straw-clay ("claybale") structures that probably did not have to be permitted. He might answer some brief questions: eses@midcoast.com >From: "The Cyrs" >Subject: GBlist: Straw/Clay walls > >My wife and I are now considering straw/clay walls for our timber frame >house that we will be building this year. (We got a letter from Agriboard >saying that they just couldn't give us material for our home because they >have to stick to their business plan of standard floorplan layouts.) > >So,I have some questions.... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 10:55:31 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA18150 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:55:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21033; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:50:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:46:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20562 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:46:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20552 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:46:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from romulus.gen.teltech.com (romulus.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.223]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA26768 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:46:17 -0600 Received: by ROMULUS with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) id ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:44:05 -0600 Message-ID: From: Patrick Pierquet To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: Flyash and radiation Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 09:44:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1461.28) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5870 The following references might be of interest: - patrick pierquet "Radon Exhalation Rates from Building Materials and FlyAsh -Containing Concretes". 1992. Battaglia, A.; Capra, D.; Queirazza, G.; Sampaolo, A. Published in: IRPA8, Eighth International Congress of the International Radiation Protection Association, May 17-22, 1992, Montreal, Canada, Worldwide Achievement in Public and Occupational Health Protection against Radiation, Volume II, pages 1578-1581 Summary: A program was developed to examine the naturally occurring radionuclide content in several building materials, the radon (10043-92-2) emanating characteristics of these same materials, and the effect of using ashes as a partial substitute for cement in concrete on the radon emanating from the concrete . The materials studied included Portland cements , pozzolanic cements , sands and gravels, bricks, hydrated limes, peperinos, pozzolanas, tuffs, ashes, fly ashes from the US and South Africa, and bottom ashes. For all groups of materials studied there was a marked variability in the natural radionuclide concentrations. Coal ashes had radon-226 levels which were similar to those found in volcanic materials but the exhalation rates were half way between those of Portland pozzolanic cements and other tested materials. The emanating power values of coal ash were comparable to those of brick. The addition of fly ash to concrete caused a slight increase in radon emanation. The authors conclude that the radiological hazard connected with the use of fly ashes in the building industry appears to be negligible. "Assessment Of The Radiological Impact Of Using Fly Ash In Cement". Stranden, E. 1983. Health Physics, Vol. 44, No. 2, pages 145-153 Sumary: The radiological impact of a Norwegian cement that was to contain up to 25 percent fly ash was assessed. Materials investigated for their radiological properties included ordinary Portland cement produced in Norway; fly ash cement , containing 25 percent fly ash ; ordinary concrete , containing 20 percent ordinary cement ; and fly ash concrete , containing 20 percent fly ash cement . Activity concentrations of potassium-40 (13966-00-2), radium-236 (51695-88-6), and thorium-232 (7440-29-1) were determined from 400 milliliter samples in plastic cans with a multichannel analyzer. Radon-222 (14859-67-7) exhalation rates over a 21 hour period were determined for concrete cubes and crushed samples in closed containers by the scintillation flask method. Estimated doses from gamma emissions and radon exhalation were calculated for model concrete block and wooden dwellings. The fly ash cement and concrete samples had enhanced activity concentrations. Concrete cubes containing fly ash , however, had significantly lower radon exhalation rates than did ordinary concrete cubes. The author concludes that adding 5 percent fly ash to ordinary concrete results in a net reduction of total effective dose equivalent for concrete houses and wooden houses with concrete floors. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 13:05:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA20879 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:05:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01466; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:59:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:55:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01064 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:55:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01060 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:55:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from apple.babb.com by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id ZRHZ8451; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:08:38 -0500 Received: by apple.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BE43AA.411BE100@apple.babb.com>; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:50:12 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE43AA.411BE100@apple.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'GBLIST'" Subject: GBlist: RE: Flyash Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:50:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA01061 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5871 Dear friends, I enjoy lurking during most of the threads, learning as much as I can. I appreciate the honesty and willingness to research and discuss issues in detail... Perhaps I can add something to the flyash debate, since I have some experience with the material I have an MSDsheet for the class F flyash we purchase from the Bull Run plant in Tennessee. I cannot reproduce it for you, but you may request it from TVA. Contact Mike Sutton at 423-751-3539 or mesutton@tva.gov. The main element in flyash is silica; other elements exist in low to miniscule percentages. (I see no mention of arsenic or cadmium, unless they have aliases I have never heard). Mr. Sutton also has the results of testing for radon done on the flyash. Of course we must continuously test the flyash, since a change in the coal supply could result in changed levels of radon. The little radon in AAC products primarily comes from the Portland Cement, not the flyash. In our area, AAC blocks have less radon than standard concrete blocks because we use less Portland Cement. I have heard that granite has a significant radon level... When I lived in New Hampshire we had to worry about the radon in the granite surrounding us! The question seems to come back to basics every time... What are the choices? Lumber from fast-growing southern pines... has to be chemically treated. Autoclaved aerated concrete requires cement, lime, a small amount of Aluminum... Steel has a high embodied energy. It seems that strawbale is the friendliest... but everyone around here laughs at the idea. It is difficult enough to get them to use AAC. Thanks to fellow listers for widening my perspective. Jillanna Babb-Cheshul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 13:16:22 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA21188 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:16:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02797; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:11:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:06:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02083 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:06:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02058 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:06:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA28902 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 12:07:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-wa40-24.ix.netcom.com(207.220.44.152) by dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma028840; Tue Jan 19 12:06:53 1999 Message-ID: <009001be4393$158ba780$982cdccf@upesi> From: "Russel DeLombard" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: Death to Drywall Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 10:04:19 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5872 Neil, Cindy, Linda et al This thread brings to mind some features of houses by Frank Lloyd Wright called "Usonians" which evolved from the mid 30's until the end of his career in the late 50's. Interior partitions were reduced to a minimum and spaces arranged so as to open interior vistas between the rooms to make the houses seem larger, which were often very small to minimize costs. . Interior partitions (and usually exterior walls) were built up of horizontal boards and battens, typically cypress or redwood, screwed to both sides of a nominal 1x board back up giving a total wall thickness of about 2 1/2". The intent was to save space in small houses and use materials which did not require interior finishes and that would survive and last without maintenance on the exterior. Architecturally they provided a warm wood paneled effect and a vertical module into which shelving and built-in furniture were fitted. These houses had other "green" features worth noting. They were typically built with minimal foundations, exposed concrete floors with in-floor radiant heating, south floor to ceiling glazing shaded by wide eaves, extensive clerestories for daylighting etc. A few were even designed as "solar hemi-cycles" with earth berms. The book "Frank Lloyd Wright's Usonian Houses, Designs for Moderate Cost One-Family Homes" (John Sargeant, 1984 Paperback, Whitney Library of Design, New York) has narrative, plans, details and photographs to describe the underlying principles, as well as shortcomings, of these houses. FLW's own "The Natural House" is worth perusing to shed some light on how much...or little...progress we have made in the last 1/2 century. Russel DeLombard On 18 Jan 1999 Cindy Blakeslee wrote (in part): >Here's a radical idea. How about no/fewer walls? > >...I currently live in a Victorian era house which drives me crazy -- whose idea was it any way to divide up a nice space into tiny areas which confound the best of furniture arrangers? > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 14:13:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA23171 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:13:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07580; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 14:07:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:58:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06696 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:58:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from beta.nova.org (beta.nova.org [209.31.144.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06692 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:58:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from infiltec.com (ra2-07.dial.nova.org [209.31.144.199]) by beta.nova.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA03186 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:59:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36A4D61A.7E948AD4@infiltec.com> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:59:38 -0500 From: David Saum Organization: Infiltec X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: ASHRAE talks on sustainability References: <36A491A6.C3FDF7DD@gs.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5873 On Sunday 1/24, the ASHRAE Winter meeting in Chicago will feature some talks on sustainability: Seminar 4 Sustainability: Does It Deserve More Than Lip Service? Sponsor: TC 01.10, Energy Resources Chair: David L. Grumman, P.E., Fellow, Grumman/Butkus Associates, Evanston, IL APC Liaison: Ismena Deacon, C.Eng., Ove Arup & Partners Sustainability-or sustainable development-can be defined as "meeting the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs." Are corporations, organizations, planners designers, governmental bodies, etc. taking this concept seriously? Or are they just paying lip service? In this seminar you will hear from those who are serious about sustainability-and what they are doing about it. 1. Sustainable Development: An Approach by a Major Corporation Ronald E. Meissen, P.E., Baxter International, Deerfield, IL 2. Sustainability in Residential Design and Construction John K. Holton, P.E., Member and Burt Hill Kosar Rittlemann, Butler, PA 3. Greening of Federal Buildings Andrew H. Walker, Associate Member, National Research Energy Laboratory, Golden, CO 4. Sustainability Through District Energy and Distributed Generation John S. Andrepont, Trigen Energy Corporation, Halifax, Nora Scotia, Canada ------------ for more information, see http://www.ashrae.org See you there. Dave Saum Infiltec http://www.infiltec.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 15:36:37 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA25622 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:36:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15560; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:31:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:26:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15083 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:26:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.privat.kkf.net (privat.kkf.net [212.63.32.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15079 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 15:26:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from privat.kkf.net (mi-dial46.privat.kkf.net [212.63.37.46]) by mail.privat.kkf.net (8.8.8/8.8.3) with SMTP id VAA06197 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:27:35 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199901192027.VAA06197@mail.privat.kkf.net> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 21:28:27 +0100 From: "Alexander.Neumann" Reply-To: "Alexander.Neumann" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Death to Drywall X-Mailer: AK-Mail 3.0b [ger] (unregistered) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA15080 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5874 > I learned that under certain conditions in landfills it produces a toxic > gas), I thought I would know what you are talking about, but I´m not sure anymore. Could some people be so kind to explain to me their idea of drywall? I was always thinking of something similar to what we do here in germany, having studs sheathed with gypsum fibreboards and covered with wallpaper. And having torn down a good couple of interior brick walls, I wished people would have always done it that way. I stuff the inner space of my new framed walls with the old bricks mortared with clay/earth, so that I get the effect of high mass walls without having to use the big hammer again in case of remodeling. Yours, Alex N. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 19 22:20:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA06049 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:20:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA08663; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:15:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:10:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08351 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:10:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08343 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:10:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA24768; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA09295; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:11:45 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:11:45 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: sharon j emley Cc: ashapiro@together.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: calculating solar hot water In-Reply-To: <19990118.085516.-203691.0.shardon5@juno.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5875 Dear Don, A common building is a great place for the community to familiarize themselves with the joys of solar hot water. I would respond to your questions, but it might make more sense, for us, to understand the context, in terms of the amount of hot water you want, which depends on the uses and the numbers of people using it. The conflicting opinions you are getting are due to different thoughts on what might be considered important, temperature, storage capacity, etc. I've done batch hot water, flat plate collector systems - both site-built do-it-yourself and commercially manufactured - plus tracking-focusing collectors, as well as, air heaters and so on, and they all have their strengths. You're right to correlate the collector area with the volume of water to be heated. In New England, we can heat about a gallon of water per each square foot of collector, approximately. If you want 30 gallons of hot water, a do-it-yopurself collector of 40 square feet will give two people 110 degree F. minimum almost all Summer from an insulated tank. 60 S.F. of higher-efficiency collectors will push 80 gallons to temperature for almost 100 percent solar hot water in the Summer for a family of four. In Arizona your ratios would be much better, and your design guidelines slightly different. The design you are proposing is, how should I say it, somewhat fussy. If you going to be the one to open the shutters every morning and close them every night then I guess it will work. If you don't open it up, you won't collect any heat - and if you don't shutter it up at night, you'll lose everything you gained during the day. Why not design a system that operates without requiring your involvement? If your question 3. is asking for a comparison between batch heaters and an insulated tank with separate flat plate collectors, then even corregated metal roofing with half inch copper tubing every six inches would be superior, if you have room on the ground. Later, Ross encl: On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, sharon j emley wrote: > I am getting conflicting local opinions in Tucson, Az on > the best way to make solar hot water for a common building > for a cohousing community. The building will have hydronic > heating and cannot be properly oriented to use direct solar > gain. I have proposed to use the triangular space below the > gable roof end of the south face of the building as a solar > collector with glass tilted at about 20 degrees from vertical > and the innards of several water heaters as collectors. These > are my questions. > 1. Since the space will only collect X amount of energy, where > is my practical limit for the volume of collectors? > 2. How do I calculate how many BTU's I should be collecting? > 3. Should this work better (assuming the space is insulated) > than collectors outside the enclosure? > 4. Am I better off spending more on the double-glazing or better > windows than on an insulated shutter for the dark times, especially > if it doubles as a reflector shelf during the day? > Thanks for any help. Don Arkin Sonora Cohousing > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ Send press releases, announcements, and notices of interest to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 To receive the next edition of the Environmental Review, send "subscribe er-list" to ; for Solar Utilities info, send, "subscribe solar_utilities" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 01:30:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA09004 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:30:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA18935; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:25:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:21:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA18682 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:21:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.gorge.net (mail.gorge.net [205.162.195.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA18678 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 01:21:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from gorge.net ([208.14.145.234]) by mail.gorge.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-54909U8000L800S0V35) with ESMTP id AAA190 for ; Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:13:34 -0800 Message-ID: <36A57820.2077F86B@gorge.net> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:30:59 -0800 From: Daniel Dancer Organization: ZeroCircles Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Earth Shelter/Strawbale...a good marriage? References: <199901200201.VAA28634@freenet3.carleton.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5876 I will soon begin building an off the grid earth sheltered garage/guest house combo into the side of a hill using rastra blocks (80% recycled foam and cement combo) on the three sides of the hill and roof, with strawbale on the southwest facing frontage.I hope to engineer it so the roof can hold 12-18inches of growing medium...knowing well that I will probably have to water a bit. The combo of sb and es makes sense to me and I'm looking forward to getting started! I hope it will be a good marriage! Daniel Dancer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 08:26:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA12144 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:26:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00010; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:21:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:17:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA29663 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:17:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29658 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:17:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:13:34 -0500 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF3618F2@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: GBlist: Fly ash, bad story-Details Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:17:33 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5877 Here is a newspaper article related to the post several days ago on structural problems being encountered after using fly ash in concrete slabs at a Home Depot. According to this report, it appears the fly ash in question was used as structural fill placed under the slab. No mention is made of the fly ash being used as an additive to the concrete used in the slabs. Drew RICHMOND TIMES-DISPATCH Copyright (c) 1999, Richmond Newspapers, Inc. DATE: Friday, January 8, 1999 TAG: 9901080092 PAGE: B-6 EDITION: City SECTION: Business LENGTH: 48 lines SOURCE: By Gregory J. Gilligan Times-Dispatch Staff Writer Staff writer Will Jones contributed to this story. HOME DEPOT MIGHT TEAR DOWN STORE STRUCTURAL ILLS FORCED CLOSING IN NOVEMBER The Home Depot store near Chesterfield Towne Center that has been closed for two months because of structural problems might be torn down. The nation's No. 1 home improvement retailer filed permits yesterday with Chesterfield County to either tear down the store and rebuild it or fix the problem leaving the existing structure. Both jobs would remove the unsuitable soil and fill material called fly ash underneath the building that apparently is causing the concrete floor to crack and heave. The chain decided to file both permits and get them approved while it awaits on results from soil tests, spokesman Don Harrison said. "We just don't know yet what we will do," Harrison said. "It will depend upon what the lab reports tell us to do." Meanwhile, Home Depot is holding a tent sale this weekend in the parking lot of the store selling one-of-a-kind merchandise and clearance items that were not transferred to the chain's store in Chester, which is scheduled to open later this month. The sale advertisements say the chain is "gutting the building." Yet Har- rison said a decision on exactly what will happen to the store has not been made. Home Depot closed the store in the Chesterfield Marketplace shopping center in early November, just six months after it opened. It is the first time in Home Depot's 20-year history that it closed a store because of structural problems. Under one of the permits filed by Home Depot, the chain plans to dismantle the building and salvage as much of the material as possible and store it on site. Then it would remove the concrete slab and take away the fly ash. The company estimates the job would cost $2.3 million. The culprit of the structural problems apparently is a certain type of fly ash that was used under the building as a fill material. That type of fly ash, which tends to expand when exposed to moisture, also is at the center of five lawsuits filed against the supplier. The lawsuits seek more than $20 million. Other buildings in the Richmond area have been affected, including the Genito Glen Apartments off Hull Street Road in Chesterfield. Part of that apartment complex was demolished last month because the footings and floor slabs were heaving upward. *********** (There are 2 earlier articles on this same topic. If anyone is interested I can send them to you.) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Drew George, Green Building Champion Bovis Construction Corp 7475 Wisconsin Avenue, 10th Floor Bethesda MD 20814 USA Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 http://www.bovis.com Drew.George@Bovis.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 09:06:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12736 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:06:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02120; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:01:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:56:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01744 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:56:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo20.mx.aol.com (imo20.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01736 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:56:48 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo20.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id FTEQa19764 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:57:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <8e7abf95.36a5e0c5@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 08:57:25 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Death to Drywall Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5878 On 18 Jan 1999 Cindy Blakeslee wrote (in part): >Here's a radical idea. How about no/fewer walls? > >...I currently live in a Victorian era house which drives me crazy -- whose idea was it any way to divide up a nice space into tiny areas which confound the best of furniture arrangers? Personally I like some acoustic as well as visual privacy (with three growing children). There is another reason I compartmentalized my house. One of the design factors I tried to use was the concept your body uses to keep warm. As body temperature falls it shuts off heat output (blood supply) to the extremites (toes, fingers, then arms and legs) At night when it's 0 or below I can shut off all but the "core" of my house (kitchen where the wood stove is, bathrooms, hall way outside bedrooms, and small family room). The other 60 percent of the house (with preponderance of the exterior walls) is more or less unheated. When I get up in the morning it is so nice to have a warm hall, bath, and kitchen. As the morning goes on and the stove warms up (or the sun warms up) more of the house we open more rooms up to the heat. Its not tat the rooms are freezing but the heat loss at 40 degree differential and 70 degrees is considerable. Just another way to design that uses less heating. Its great to come up with "new ideas" that seem "radical" but a little historical perspective and some perspectiive on why and how partitions, drywall, stud walls etc actually work seems like a good idea. Of course there are alternatives that can be used, but "death to drywall"? Get rid of interior walls? Nahhh. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Inc. Contractors, Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 09:52:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13436 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:52:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA05219; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:47:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:42:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA04660 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:42:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from garnet.sover.net (garnet.sover.net [209.198.87.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA04652 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:42:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.29] (pm1a29.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.125]) by garnet.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA17011; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:43:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:43:25 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) [207.136.199.29] from pm1a29.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.125] 207.136.199.125 Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:43:25 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199901192027.VAA06197@mail.privat.kkf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: "Alexander.Neumann" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Death to Drywall Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA04655 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5879 At 9:28 PM +0100 1/19/99, Alexander.Neumann wrote: >> I learned that under certain conditions in landfills it produces a toxic >> gas), >I thought I would know what you are talking about, but I´m not sure >anymore. Could some people be so kind to explain to me their idea of >drywall? I was always thinking of something similar to what we do here in >germany, having studs sheathed with gypsum fibreboards and covered with >wallpaper. I think we're talking about the same basic stuff--drywall or wallboard is gypsum with a paper facing. Here's how the toxic gas can be created with landfilled drywall: Under certain conditions (high moisture and inadequate oxygen), gypsum (calcium sulfate) is decomposed by anaerobic bacteria, generating hydrogen sulfide in the process. Hydrogen sulfide is a noxious and potentially toxic gas. This is rarely an issue of concern, but can be in some landfill situations. When used as a soil ammendment, gypsum will be highly aerated, so the action of anaerobic bacteria will not be present. I continue to feel good about the use of ground-up (unpainted) drywall as a soil ammendment. I should also add that I am not as down on drywall as others who have expressed their opinions on the list. From an environmental and indoor air quality standpoint, I feel that drywall is a pretty good building material. The facings are generally 100% unbleached, recycled paper, and the gypsum can be "flue-gas gypsum." Flue-gas gypsum is a waste product from coal-fired power plants. The scrubbers in the flue stacks of these plants use calcium carbonate to remove sulfur from the power plant emissions. Sulfur reacts with calcium carbonate to produce gypsum (calcium sulfate). Power companies accumulate mountains of this waste product that have to be disposed of. European drywall manufacturers have long used this gypsum source; now some American companies are as well. To the best of my knowledge, at least one USG drywall plant is now using 100% flue-gas or reclaimed gypsum. -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News 122 Birge Street, Suite 30 Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 10:27:52 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14181 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:27:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08533; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:22:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:18:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08127 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:18:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08120 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:18:04 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id ANUOa01428 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:18:22 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <90a6bd20.36a5f3be@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:18:22 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Death to Drywall Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5880 In a message dated 99-01-20 09:46:27 EST, alex@ebuild.com writes: << I should also add that I am not as down on drywall as others who have expressed their opinions on the list. From an environmental and indoor air quality standpoint, I feel that drywall is a pretty good building material. >> Alex -- good comments, my objections to drywall were not environmentally related, but because it is so "normal" and average and is a pain to finish and dents easily, and dogs eat it - what IS in there that dogs like ??? I just prefer something with more character, and cannot wait until I have my plastered straw bale walls Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 10:38:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14487 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:38:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09848; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:33:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:29:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09121 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:29:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09117 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:29:15 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id LNITa03537 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:29:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <3c5c2823.36a5f66e@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:29:50 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Windows Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5881 In view of our recent window and vinyl discussions, I found it interesting that the Professional Builder (jan) issue which arrived yesterday has a multi- page advertising section that is headed - "Green" Builders Thrive with Vinyl ----- Buyers want energy efficiency, air quality and renewable resources in a home. Using vinyl products supports all three " hmmmmmmm Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 11:12:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA15190 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:12:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15185; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:07:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:02:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14187 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:02:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14160 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:02:38 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id GSPUa06036 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:03:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:03:14 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: On earth sheltering... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5882 In a message dated 99-01-20 10:57:08 EST, rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca writes: << I really would not mind at all if you could present a strong argument pointing out the merits of earth-bermed structures in a manner that would support Bruce's contention that they outperform SBH. >> I would think it quite unlikely that the same site would be suitable for both - my site in Vermont was up against a rock ledge, and lent itself quite well to earth shelter , also I did NOT want the house visible from Rte 100, and also wanted that sense of mystery from people wondering if there really WAS a house in there --- but my site in Virginia is very flat and would indeed work well with straw bale, and may indeed have a living roof, and is not visible from any road Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 11:13:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA15207 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:13:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15352; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:03:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14368 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14336 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:03:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA03334; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:04:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA04525; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:04:43 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:04:43 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: GrenSheltr@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Green Bandwagon In-Reply-To: <3c5c2823.36a5f66e@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5883 Whirlpool, too, is now advertising its clothes washing machines, as energy efficient, cost saving, and essentially good for the environment. Everybody may soon be describing their products in these environmentally attractive terms. Its easy, misleading, and entirely misses the point. All energy-using appliances have energy efficiency - good or bad - they have an energy efficiency. Whirlpool will not be promoting clotheslines, I venture. Yours truly, Ross On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 GrenSheltr@aol.com wrote: > In view of our recent window and vinyl discussions, I found it interesting > that the Professional Builder (jan) issue which arrived yesterday has a multi- > page advertising section that is headed - "Green" Builders Thrive with Vinyl > ----- Buyers want energy efficiency, air quality and renewable resources in a > home. Using vinyl products supports all three " hmmmmmmm Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 11:34:14 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA15636 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:34:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17737; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:29:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:25:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17338 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:24:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from x16.boston.juno.com (x16.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17334 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:24:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from shardon5@juno.com) by x16.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DZEWL62A; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 11:20:23 EST To: rnn@rnn.com Cc: shardon5@juno.com, ashapiro@together.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:14:40 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: calculating solar hot water Message-ID: <19990120.091442.-203343.3.shardon5@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3,5,7,9,11,14,16,18,20-91 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: sharon j emley Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5884 Dear Ross, Thank you for your response. There really isn't space on the ground for a separate system and the south facing roof is dedicated to PV. I have about 45 square feet of glazing potential facing due south and the water will be mostly used for hydronic space heating of a 1300 sq ft straw-bale building with too much glass facing the wrong directions. Of course our winter climate is laughably mild but we do have 3 to 4 months with overnight lows of 40 or less and avg highs of low 60's. I take your point about the mental effort required to open and close my shutters but I don't think that it is all bad for residents to know about the consequences of their actions and I have thought about automating it as well. I didn't know how large the gain in overall efficiency would be between using cheap glazing and night-time insulation versus good glazing w/o insulation. And whether you capture more BTU's by heating more water to 90 than less water to 120? Don >The design you are proposing is, how should I say it, somewhat fussy. >If >you going to be the one to open the shutters every morning and close >them >every night then I guess it will work. If you don't open it up, you >won't >collect any heat - and if you don't shutter it up at night, you'll >lose >everything you gained during the day. Why not design a system that >operates without requiring your involvement? If your question 3. is >asking for a comparison between batch heaters and an insulated tank >with >separate flat plate collectors, then even corregated metal roofing >with >half inch copper tubing every six inches would be superior, if you >have >room on the ground. > >Later, >Ross > >encl: > >On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, sharon j emley wrote: > >> I am getting conflicting local opinions in Tucson, Az on >> the best way to make solar hot water for a common building >> for a cohousing community. The building will have hydronic >> heating and cannot be properly oriented to use direct solar >> gain. I have proposed to use the triangular space below the >> gable roof end of the south face of the building as a solar >> collector with glass tilted at about 20 degrees from vertical >> and the innards of several water heaters as collectors. These >> are my questions. >> 1. Since the space will only collect X amount of energy, where >> is my practical limit for the volume of collectors? >> 2. How do I calculate how many BTU's I should be collecting? >> 3. Should this work better (assuming the space is insulated) >> than collectors outside the enclosure? >> 4. Am I better off spending more on the double-glazing or better >> windows than on an insulated shutter for the dark times, especially > >> if it doubles as a reflector shelf during the day? >> Thanks for any help. Don Arkin Sonora Cohousing >> >______________________________________________________________________ >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >> Environmental Building News and Oikos > >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >> >______________________________________________________________________ > >Send press releases, announcements, and notices of interest to: > Renewable News Network > 44 Norfolk Street > Needham, MA 02492 USA >Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 > >To receive the next edition of the Environmental Review, >send "subscribe er-list" to ; >for Solar Utilities info, send, "subscribe solar_utilities" > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 12:32:42 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16877 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:32:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21926; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:27:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:23:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21562 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:23:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21553 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:23:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-0-35.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.0.35]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA09705; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:24:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36A61345.4D58BD19@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:32:53 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Caaradrbl@aol.com, Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Death to Drywall References: <8e7abf95.36a5e0c5@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5885 Being the instigator of the intentionally 'hyperbolic' Death to Drywall (included a if I remember correctly) thread I just wanted to mention that I was not attacking it from a compositional framework or suggesting it is the worst housing problem going. The material has some resource efficient properties: re-use of other industiral process waste, low toxicity, no off-gasing etc. My issues are more about building changeability and standard 'services' routing and the unnoticed costs of drywall from a renovate and retrofit perspective. I even like drywall as an interior finish on exterior walls inside the vapour barrier, all this really requires is that one doesn't route 'services' (plumbing, phone, electrical, etc) behind the drywall and the drywall can likely live there for eons undisturbed. However in my mind it's standard uses have some pretty serious shortcomings: 1)I don't like it when services of any kind go behind the crunchy dusty barrier. 2)I don't like it for interior partitions because it's nice to move interior partitions sometimes. (what about before and after the kids?) 3) I don't like it around bathroom fixtures, etc because of the need for easy cavity access for repair, upgrade or replacement. 4) Almost everyone paints drywall so my understanding is that it would not be post-consumer recyclable. Removable materials would be because they wouldn't break when you removed them and you wouldn't tape them together. Some solutions I have heard of and would like to see (and hope to try) in residential buildings include: - radiant floor heating that ran services through the edge of the floor in a recessed cavity with a wood cover plate. - exposed services - dropped ceilings (that don't look institutional?) - removable wallboard (which I have not yet seen an example of. largely I think because it is a difficult problem. how to hang it, high cost, paintability, fitting together, cutting to fit smaller spaces, etc, etc) I was just trying to find out what experience people had with different options to drywall. And there weren't very many. (Caveat - that would fit into the housing stock of Toronto and its suburbs which is mostly Victorian and Edwardian style homes which is a pretty restrictive limit in the first place.) In the end it may not be 'drywall' that I don't like, but the methods used to fix it to structures. That being said I haven't seen any good 'movable' drywall set-ups, and think, due to it's easy cracking and breaking when in motion that it would not be a good material to use as a removable partition or surface cover. And even moreso, at the end of the day, removable interior side of exterior walls might be a real structural integrity problem that is unsolvable in a retrofit wood-frame situation. Blah blah blah. Gosh that was long. I must really care about this. :) Neil Caaradrbl@aol.com wrote: > > On 18 Jan 1999 Cindy Blakeslee wrote (in part): > > >Here's a radical idea. How about no/fewer walls? > > > > > >...I currently live in a Victorian era house which drives me crazy -- whose > > idea was it any way to divide up a nice space into tiny areas which confound > > the best of furniture arrangers? > > Personally I like some acoustic as well as visual privacy (with three growing > children). There is another reason I compartmentalized my house. One of the > design factors I tried to use was the concept your body uses to keep warm. As > body temperature falls it shuts off heat output (blood supply) to the > extremites (toes, fingers, then arms and legs) At night when it's 0 or below > I can shut off all but the "core" of my house (kitchen where the wood stove > is, bathrooms, hall way outside bedrooms, and small family room). The other > 60 percent of the house (with preponderance of the exterior walls) is more or > less unheated. When I get up in the morning it is so nice to have a warm > hall, bath, and kitchen. As the morning goes on and the stove warms up (or > the sun warms up) more of the house we open more rooms up to the heat. Its > not tat the rooms are freezing but the heat loss at 40 degree differential and > 70 degrees is considerable. Just another way to design that uses less > heating. > Its great to come up with "new ideas" that seem "radical" but a little > historical perspective and some perspectiive on why and how partitions, > drywall, stud walls etc actually work seems like a good idea. Of course there > are alternatives that can be used, but "death to drywall"? Get rid of > interior walls? Nahhh. > Rick Darfler > Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Inc. > Contractors, Ithaca, NY > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 14:01:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18729 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:01:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA28070; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:56:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:50:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA27593 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:50:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA27589 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:50:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-06-49.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.129.49]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA14357; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:51:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:55:41 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE447C.90EAE820.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'George, Drew'" , "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Fly ash, bad story-Details Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 12:03:52 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5886 I beleive I predicted that the cause of the problem would be something other than flyash problems with concrete. Now, unfortunately, people will beleive that flyash was the problem instead of inept building design. Anybody who knows anything about soils could have predicted large moisture-related movements from backfilling with flyash (or any other very fine material). I bet they would start to have moisture problems too if the building lasted long enough. We are doomed to repeat history and bad building practise it seems ... ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 14:18:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19110 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:18:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29210; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:13:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:08:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28768 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:07:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.monumental.com (mail1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28763 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:07:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by mail1.monumental.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA23733 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:03:49 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <8e7abf95.36a5e0c5@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:08:56 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Death to Drywall Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5887 990120 Rick, aren't you going to have problems with cracks & nail pops caused by exposure to temp extremes in the portions you shut off heat to at night? We certainly have seen that in both plaster & wallboard in our 3 buildings here, and no longer allow our heat setting to be below 55 in the restaurant (few non-log walls anyway), or 65 in the 2 houses. I believe that most warranties by wallbd mfrs would be void in such usage. jh -------- >Personally I like some acoustic as well as visual privacy (with three growing >children). There is another reason I compartmentalized my house. One of the >design factors I tried to use was the concept your body uses to keep warm. As >body temperature falls it shuts off heat output (blood supply) to the >extremites (toes, fingers, then arms and legs) At night when it's 0 or below >I can shut off all but the "core" of my house (kitchen where the wood stove >is, bathrooms, hall way outside bedrooms, and small family room). The other >60 percent of the house (with preponderance of the exterior walls) is more or >less unheated. When I get up in the morning it is so nice to have a warm >hall, bath, and kitchen. As the morning goes on and the stove warms up (or >the sun warms up) more of the house we open more rooms up to the heat. Its >not tat the rooms are freezing but the heat loss at 40 degree differential and >70 degrees is considerable. Just another way to design that uses less >heating. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 14:51:42 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19695 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:51:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01516; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:46:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:42:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA00945 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:42:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu (root@eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu [130.207.194.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00935 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:42:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [130.207.206.198] (apearce.gtri.gatech.edu [130.207.206.198]) by eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00921 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:48:42 -0500 X-Sender: annie@eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:53:54 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Annie R. Pearce" Subject: GBlist: Sustainable Construction - What do you think? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5888 Sustainable Construction in the United States of America A perspective to the year 2010 To researchers and practitioners of sustainable construction in the United States: We at Georgia Tech have compiled an ongoing "state-of-the-field" report on Sustainable Construction in the United States as part of CIB Workgroup 82's publication "Sustainable Development and the Future of Construction". As an expansion of the report, we are doing an informal survey of perspectives to assess what you (the experts in the field) think are the most important issues in sustainability for the built environment, and where you think we will be headed between now and the year 2010. Our chapter of the CIB book is available on the web at http://maven.gtri.gatech.edu/sfi/publications.html - it's the first item on the publications list. If you'd like to be a part of the informal survey, please respond via email to the following questions by 31 January 1999. There are nine questions (short answer and ratings), and the survey should take no more than 10-15 minutes to complete. For those of you who are willing to spend more time examining our formal report, the last question asks if you would be willing to participate in a more detailed survey. Participants in the detailed study will receive formal acknowledgement in the next version of the report published by CIB. If you are not from the US, please feel free to complete the questions anyway. Your answers will not be a part of the report, but I will include them in the summary posted to the list. If you prefer, you may also fax your response to (404) 894-2184, to the attention of Annie Pearce. Thanks in advance! By the way, this survey was posted with permission from the moderators of this list. Thanks to them for their permission! 1) Name, Affiliation, Contact Information: 2) How do you describe your role in sustainable construction? Check all that apply. _______ Owner _______ Contractor _______ Designer/Architect/Engineer _______ Materials Manufacturer _______ Consultant _______ Researcher _______ Teacher/Professor (please list institution & subject areas) _______ Other (please describe) 3) Please describe your work as it relates to sustainable construction, e.g., "I teach a course on green building" or "I perform environmental audits for homeowners", etc. 4) How do you define "sustainable construction"? If you are using someone else's definition, please include a reference. 5) The following is a list of issues relating to sustainable construction in the United States. Please give each of the following issues a rank between 1 and 10 to indicate how important you think each is to the sustainability of construction in the U.S. 1 = not important 10 = very important _______ Energy conservation measures _______ Land use regulations and urban planning policies _______ Waste reduction measures _______ Resource conservation strategies _______ Indoor environmental quality _______ Environmentally-friendly energy technologies _______ Re-engineering the design process _______ Proactive role of materials manufacturers _______ Better ways to measure and account for costs _______ New kinds of partnerships and project stakeholders _______ Adoption of performance-based standards _______ Product innovation and/or certification _______ Adoption of incentive programs _______ Education and training _______ Recognition of commercial buildings as productivity assets 6) Are there other issues you believe are important for sustainable construction? If so, please list and describe them. 7) On which of the following issues will we make the most progress between now and the year 2010? For this question, we're trying to understand how the A/E/C industry will naturally evolve in the next ten to fifteen years. Please indicate your predictions by rating each item on a scale from 1 to 10. 1 = won't change 10 = will change very much _______ Energy conservation measures _______ Land use regulations and urban planning policies _______ Waste reduction measures _______ Resource conservation strategies _______ Indoor environmental quality _______ Environmentally-friendly energy technologies _______ Re-engineering the design process _______ Proactive role of materials manufacturers _______ Better ways to measure and account for costs _______ New kinds of partnerships and project stakeholders _______ Adoption of performance-based standards _______ Product innovation and/or certification _______ Adoption of incentive programs _______ Education and training _______ Recognition of commercial buildings as productivity assets _______ Other (please describe) 8) Which of the following should receive the most focus between now and 2010 in order to achieve sustainable construction? For this question, we'd like to know where you think the U.S. should put its policy emphases and research dollars. Please rate each item on a scale from 1 to 10. 1 = doesn't require any additional focus 10 = will require a lot of additional focus _______ Energy conservation measures _______ Land use regulations and urban planning policies _______ Waste reduction measures _______ Resource conservation strategies _______ Indoor environmental quality _______ Environmentally-friendly energy technologies _______ Re-engineering the design process _______ Proactive role of materials manufacturers _______ Better ways to measure and account for costs _______ New kinds of partnerships and project stakeholders _______ Adoption of performance-based standards _______ Product innovation and/or certification _______ Adoption of incentive programs _______ Education and training _______ Recognition of commercial buildings as productivity assets _______ Other (please describe) 9) Would you be willing to answer a more detailed set of questions based on your reading of the U.S. Sustainable Construction report? If yes, please ensure that your contact information is correct as provided above. _______ Yes _______ No Thank you for your participation in the survey. I will post summary results to the list as soon as the responses are compiled. _____________________________________________ Annie R. Pearce, Research Engineer and Program Director Sustainable Facilities & Infrastructure Program Georgia Tech Research Institute Electro-Optics, Environment, and Materials Laboratory Safety, Health, and Environmental Technologies Division Atlanta, GA 30332-0837 Phone: (404) 894-8089 Fax: (404) 894-2184 annie.pearce@gtri.gatech.edu http://eoeml.gtri.gatech.edu/lab/staff/apearce.html _____________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 15:44:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA21042 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:44:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05228; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:34:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04763 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:34:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04758 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:34:28 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id AZXFa05506; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:34:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:34:17 EST To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Death to Drywall Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5889 In a message dated 1/20/99 12:24:25 PM, nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca writes: >In the end it may not be 'drywall' that I don't like, but the methods used >to fix it to structures. That being said I haven't seen any good 'movable' drywall set-ups, >and think, due to it's easy cracking and breaking when in motion that it would not >be a good material to use as a removable partition or surface cover. Neil I find drywall to be an ideal surface for walls, with enough tenacity to resist most bumps and bangs, easy to patch when damaged, easy to remove when needed (as opposed to wire lath and plaster). Generally we don't have to remove much in order to reroute plumbing or electric. the presumption is that enough thought went into the original project to be usable for the life of the drywall or longer. When used as an air barrier or vapor retarder it is easy to see flaws when they occur. Panels go up quickly and when done well on a well framed wall they look every bit a good as a plaster surface (after painting). They even make a pre finished drywall which can be installed and removed if needed. I don't shill for US Gypsum, but the reason it is so ubiquitous is that it is a great product and well suited to the use intended. And of course it is used poorly, like behind tile in showers, but don't blame the material, blame the installer. I have seen sub floor boxes with grating for heat runs and perhaps the detail could be extended for use as a wiring run. Also there are some decent wire mold and plug mold raceways (Pass & Seymor, e.g.) which could be used or adapted and detailed into baseboard. Beyond that removable raised panel wainscotting is a solution. Many ceilings are built with trim which grids off the surface. They could easily be removable panels with the edges held up with trim which is screwed for fastening. Find an inventive designer, Architect, or Contractor and pay for a brainstorming session and you'd be amazed at the solution a twisted and inventive mind can come up with. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Inc. Contractors, Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 16:26:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA22365 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:26:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA08519; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:21:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:17:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA08144 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:17:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA08140 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:16:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.38]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4640200 ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:43:34 -0800 Message-ID: <36A647BB.160C436C@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:16:43 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Kadulski CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: no roof ventilation References: <36A36C07.7562BC8D@direct.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5890 Thanks Richard that was exactly what I was looking for and now memory (jogged) serves and I do remember reading the Solplan article. One things stands out and this was also what I was interested in learning more about - "Differences in attic wood moisture content had no relationship to how much air leakage there was at the ceiling between the house and attic." I was assuming that attic moisture was primarily related to moisture in the residence (I've seen lots of evidence of this in houses with good attic ventilation but would have thought vapour tightness of ceiling would have been an important element of control (along with house ventilation) as your conclusion indicates but it seems the results are somewhat contradictory. Do you know if there has been any subsequent studies or discussion anywhere? thanks again John Richard Kadulski wrote: > Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:36:40 -0800 > From: > Richard Kadulski > > The Study was titled "Attic Ventilation and Moisture Control Strategies" > and was > done by Shletair Scientific for CMHC. > > The precis I wrote in Solplan Review (no. 79, March 1998) is as follows: > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 16:35:36 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA22657 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA09598; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:30:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:26:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA09035 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:26:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA09025 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:26:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.38]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4645400 ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:52:39 -0800 Message-ID: <36A649D1.4A47C08E@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:25:38 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Kadulski , greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: no roof ventilation References: <36A36C07.7562BC8D@direct.ca> <36A647BB.160C436C@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5891 To add to this I note that the CMHC is not recommending a change in the 1:300 ventilation requirement. I would have thought that based on the results a change would be useful if only to minimize air movement through batt type insulation. If Don is still on this list and 'list'ening maybe he might have more information. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 16:59:17 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA23117 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:59:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11302; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:54:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:50:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA10687 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:49:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10677 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:49:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.38]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4657300 ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:16:33 -0800 Message-ID: <36A64F63.7BDCA5DB@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:49:23 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nadav Malin CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Use of flyash in concrete References: <199901152337.SAA19200@solstice.crest.org> <36A12152.1854D47C@direct.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5892 Hi Nadav got me, I assumed there was some separation in the process otherwise how can percentages be controlled especially with waste incineration as the amendment. Anybody know more? John Nadav Malin wrote: > At 6:31 PM -0800 1/16/99, John Salmen wrote: > > > >The concrete industry is not one with a good reputation and is becoming > >increasingly tied to the waste industry - we will probably see increases > >in the > >percentage of ash from the waste incineration cement kilns be allowed into the > >product anyway and what little we know of synergism, especially over time > >and in > >reaction to the elements leaves me concerned about ever getting an appropriate > >amount of information about the risk. > > Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been under them impression that > any ash generated during the firing of cement _IS_ in the product. My > understanding is that the fuel enters the main chamber along with the > limestone, and the clinker that is ground into cement is what comes out the > bottom. > > I know, for example, that one advantage of using tires as fuel in these > kilns is that the traces of steel from the steel belted radials are > beneficial to the cement. > > Nadav > > Environmental Building News > the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction > 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) > http://www.ebuild.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 17:36:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24030 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:36:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14800; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:31:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:27:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13993 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:27:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13977 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:27:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from myrtle.rtpnc.epa.gov by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26439) with ESMTP id <0F5V00J48O51X0@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:46:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26438) with SMTP id <0F5V00GJ7NDAUB@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:22:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:22:07 -0500 Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:20:30 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: Green Bandwagon and ENERGY STAR To: greenbuilding@crest.org, rnn@rnn.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5893 Ross said: >>Whirlpool, too, is now advertising its clothes washing machines as energy efficient, cost saving, and essentially good for the environment. >>Everybody may soon be describing their products in these environmentally attractive terms. It's easy, misleading, and entirely misses the point. All energy-using appliances have energy efficiency - good or bad - they have an energy efficiency.. . . (snip) ______________ No doubt it is easy to confuse customers with marketing messages. One of the goals of the ENERGY STAR program is to give consumers a simple guideline (albeit related to energy efficiency only, and not other green characteristics) that will help them differentiate among products that say they are efficient and those that actually are. Certainly the ENERGY STAR logo is not the silver bullet. We believe, however, that the use of it on more efficient products will help to educate the public on two points: 1) that there actually is a difference in efficiency among products (many consumers never take efficiency into account or believe that there really is no difference among products) and 2) that choosing products with the logo will help reduce air pollution and save money on energy bills. If you want more information about the ENERGY STAR program, please call our hotline at 1-888-782-7937 or visit or web site at [www.energystar.gov]. Thanks. Steve O. ============= Contact Information: Steve Offutt - ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html ============= ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 18:39:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA25170 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:39:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA18173; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:34:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:30:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA17699 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:29:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17695 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:29:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [153.37.202.39] (1Cust83.tnt3.redmond.wa.da.uu.net [153.37.200.83]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA04838 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:31:00 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: wrg7@mail.earthlink.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36A61345.4D58BD19@atlasinc.on.ca> References: <8e7abf95.36a5e0c5@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 15:49:01 -0800 To: greenbuilding From: Mary Colette Wallace Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Death to Drywall Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5894 Neil you wrote >2)I don't like it for interior partitions because it's nice to move >>interior partitions sometimes. (what about before and after the kids?) >Neil Spiegel Neil If you don't like interior partitions, why not build the room (bedrooms are ideal for this) and put it on heavy duty wheels? Then, you can plug-in electrical items at will and push it out of the way during the day. This is ideal for loft spaces. BTW, my bill will be in the mail:) Mary Colette Wallace, Assoc.AIA The Wallace Research Group 11330 NE 36th Place G117 Bellevue, WA 98004 425.822.1249 Mailto:wrg7@earthlink.net Building Materials Information & Analysis ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 18:52:03 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA25472 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:52:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19322; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:46:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:43:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA18866 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:42:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA18858 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:42:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA22146 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:43:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from vna-va15-60.ix.netcom.com(207.223.179.124) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma022011; Wed Jan 20 17:43:01 1999 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990120184034.00738a64@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 18:40:38 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: US Greenhouse Gas Emissions & Sinks (EPA report) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5895 =20 Inventory of US Greenhouse Gas Emissions & Sinks. 1990 =97 1996 Pub. (March 1998) EPA 236-R-98-006 ... an interesting "data" site and report for those with an interest in global change. < The following link connects to the Executive Summary: =20 < Note: Requires Adobe Acrobat free reader: (download) < | =3DO=3D Environmental Building Consulting Services | Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA < < ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 22:12:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA28275 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:11:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29812; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:06:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:02:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA29489 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:02:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA29484 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:02:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.91] (newhenyusr0-a73.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.73]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA13178 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:03:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 21:03:32 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: GBlist: Use of flyash in concretegreenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5896 John Salem and Nadav Malin, My understanding of using hazardous waste as a fuel to make cement is as Nadav describes: Limestone is heated in cement kilns in direct contact with the flames from whatever fuel is being burned. But there is probably confusion about fly ash. Fly ash is the material captured in pollution control equipment from the exhaust stream of an incinerator. In contrast, bottom ash, is the material left on the grates after a material has been burned. I'm not sure if this terminology holds for coal power plants. My understanding is that people on this list have been talking about adding fly ash from a coal power plant to cement or concrete after the cement has already been made in a cement kiln. So, it is a different issue from cement kilns burning fuel such as tires or hazardous wastes inside their kilns. I would add that the potential for incorporating toxic materials into the cement seems very real when using such fuels. Perhaps the cement is stronger because of steel from burning tires, but tires also often contain significant amounts of lead and cadmium, which are also going to be incorporated into the cement. If they don't end up in the cement they end up in the exhaust gases of the kiln and will be deposited in the environment. Many other hazardous wastes used to fuel cement kilns also contain heavy metals, or chlorinated chemicals which may be the precursors to things like dioxin. Basically, the burning of legally classified hazardous waste in cement kilns is a big loop hole for the chemical industries. It can not possibly detoxify or isolate all the nasties found in hazardous waste, let alone in such wastes as tires. And cement kilns have much lower standards for monitoring and flue gas cleaning, etc than even municipal waste incinerators, not to mention hazardous waste incinerators. I believe Greenpeace may have some information on this issue at their web site. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 23:28:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA29384 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:28:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03456; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:23:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:17:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA03006 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:17:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA03002 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:17:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.170]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4861000 ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:14:07 -0800 Message-ID: <36A6AA5A.B5A6BA63@cow-net.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:17:30 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Lead/fly ash etc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5897 thanks steve for the wonderful and clear response. I did not mean to imply that native americans intentionally controlled lead intake through intimate knowledge of effects though there is evidence of extensive toxicological and immunological knowledge (5,000 or so years amounts to something). The reference was meant to draw attention to assumptions about tolerable levels of substances and the context for the practicality of our assumptions about levels in individual materials. There has been a lot of comments since (on this list and IAQ) directed specifically at toxicity issues with flyash - the information is given with an anecdotal surety i.e. studies indicating elements do not exceed acceptable levels, levels are similar to native soils, radon levels can be monitored, etc. The consensus would seem to be that flyash usage is not only acceptable but its usage should not be questioned unless one could supply substantive information to the contrary. This seems fair enough and I feel more informed but I'm left with concerns and it seems to me that this emerging 'discipline' needs to be conservative and cautionary in what it preaches. Two things not discussed - synergistic effects over time/context (soil/water/air/other building materials) - potential of raising levels in placement (in combination with existing sources of radon or radon from aggregate material and elevating soil levels or interior air levels of other contaminants - from a growing variety of sources as well as native) John Steve wrote: > John > > > whether a result of limited knowledge, controlled > > information or simply misinformation (a recent Rachel article reinforced that > > point for me with a discussion of children's lead levels - "pre-Columbian > > inhabitants of North America had average blood lead levels of 0.016 ug/dL -- > > 625 times as low as the 10 ug/dL now established as "safe" for children". > > Native Americans had low blood levels for several reasons: > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 20 23:52:34 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA29781 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:52:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04643; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:47:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:42:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA04276 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:42:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA04272 for ; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:42:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.magma.ca (mail2.magma.ca [206.191.0.218]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA09543; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:43:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (port159.magma.ca [206.191.5.159]) by mail2.magma.ca (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA24829; Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:43:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: X-Sender: stephen@mail.magma.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:24:57 -0500 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" , "'Greenbuilding'" From: Stephen Thwaites Subject: RE: GBlist: The Furnace Free House in Vermont Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5898 At 11:28 AM 1/18/99 -0500, John Straube wrote: >>From an economic point of view there is little doubt that the low energy, >not zero energy approach wins in almost all situations, especially if one >considers the extra design time to get to zero energy. The engineers among us have to be careful about falling into the "from an economic point of view" trap. It's one i fall into all the time. Think about it - What's the payback of a 4 wheel drive SUV (Sport Utility Vehicle)? or even closer to home high performance windows? I can't ever recall selling even a low e upgrade on economic merit alone. We live in a very wealthy society, not necessarily uniformly wealthy, but nevertheless wealthy. Doesn't it make sense to try to divert resources from other luxury purchase towards green insanity? Now i realize that in the Hartland VT case the clients don't seem to have money to burn. But,,, Marc, if you threw a SUV's worth of non economic conservation and renewables at your base case (Case #1) where would you end up? Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ottawa Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 21 06:41:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA03797 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:41:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA17159; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:32:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA16919 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:32:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from hil-img-6.compuserve.com (hil-img-6.compuserve.com [149.174.177.136]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA16915 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:32:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hil-img-6.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.17) id GAA23367 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:33:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 06:32:55 -0500 From: Scott Shell Subject: GBlist: Current Flyash Research To: GBlist Message-ID: <199901210633_MC2-6771-4C30@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id GAA16916 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5899 I've been organizing an effort in San Francisco to promote high volume flyash use for the past 6 months. Included are mainstream architects, structural engineers, testing labs, contractors, ready-mix plants, and a true concrete expert Dr. P.K. Mehta. >From these people I've learned a bit that I hope will be of use. We held a Forum in December and are ready to publish the Proceedings. If you want a copy and will actually read it, email your address to me at SShell@EHDD.com. We've begun a testing program using local materials and labs to build confidence with our engineers. We are hoping to replace 50% of the cement with flyash in most of our concrete work. There has been extensive research in this area over the last 10 years, especially by Dr. V.M Malhotra at CANMET and Dr. Mehta. CANMET pioneered the development of superplasticized 55% flyash concrete which has been used on a handfull of demonstration projects including a 7-storey office building. We are trying to corroborate some of Dr. Mehta's work in our testing program in which no superplasticizer was used, in these high percentages flyash itself acts as a superplasticizer. In general, these high volume concrete mixes have many advantages including being much more durable. It is much less permeable and has a reduced tendancy to micro-crack adjacent to the coarse aggregate where typical concrete mixes are quite weak. Europeans, and some states, have pretty much stopped using epoxy coated rebar in severe environments and are concentrating on getting quality concrete including lots of flyash. The primary concern is achieving adequate early strength since flyash is not as reactive as cement and takes longer to cure. This is alleviated by keeping the water content very low, eg the discussion of superplasticizers above. Flyash is now widely specified to replace 15% of the cement, I believe that most concrete now comes with it as part of the mix. In Europe flyash is interground with the cement where it typical makes up 22% of the cement. Regarding the variability various flyashes, Dr. Mehta argues convincingly that the chemical variability is not important, it the the particle size and distribution. And almost all of the flyash available exceeds the desired characteristics. There is a large distribution network with quite a few companies in the business. See the American Coal Ash Association website for more info. Regarding the health concerns; The EPA gave flyash in concrete a clean bill of health and discussed the issues in some detail (article provided on request) see Federal Register vol 48 No 20 Jan. 28, 1983. Their primary concern appeared to be the radon issue, and as others have pointed out, they state that "the use of flyash as a partial cement replacement is likely to reduce the radon gas contribution of the final concrete product." I have checked lab reports of our local flyash and it corresponds with the levels the EPA references. Dr. Mehta referenced some work by Dr. Schiessl at the U. of Aachen in which a series of leach tests were conducted to see how much of the heavy metals could be leached out of the concrete. In a tank test, which I believe is intended to replicate concrete water storage tanks, out or 185 mg of added zinc only 0.09 mg could be leached out after a series of attempts. Similar results with Chromium. Again, flyash makes a concrete significantly less permeable that typical mix designs. Since our firm does mostly buildings not particularly subject to leaching, this seems to be fine. Leaching is a serious issue with the 26 cubic miles of flyash that are landfilled in the U.S. every year since there is nothing to immobilize the material. There are serious concerns about air and groundwater pollution in this case. In general, ordinary concrete mixes are way overdesigned. Typically an extra 18% cement is added just to ensure that the 28 day strength is met. Changing to a 56 day strength test would save this 18% cement. Likewise, field practices such as adding additional mixing water or not properly curing the concrete have encouraged ready-mix plants to significantly overdesign the mix. Replacing half of the cement with flyash is quite feasible, but it will take more attention from all parties involved. But this is recurring lesson in sustainable design: local specific reasoned solutions are often better than the one size fits all solution. Dr. Mehta argues that our current concrete mix designs are creating structures with a life of only 40-50 years while these new mix designs should last for 100's of years. And, as you probably know, producing 1 ton of cement releases 1 ton of CO2, and is responsible for 7-8% of all CO2 emissions worldwide. Thanks Scott Shell EsherickHomseyDodge & Davis Architects ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 21 09:21:22 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07125 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:21:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22489; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:16:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:12:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22157 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22153 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:11:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:13:28 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E3C0@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: Daptex Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:13:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5900 At the NAHB Builders show in Dallas this past weekend, I had a conversation with someone at the Great Stuff booth (a Daptex competitor). They too now have a latex foam, which looks a whole lot like (and is in response to) Daptex. This rep was very unexcited about the product. He said it does not handle moisture well--it deteriorates. Nor does it firm up it the urethane foams. It does seem to stick as well (good news for your hands, but not good for whatever you're trying to seal. He said very that the only reason they were marketing it was in response to Daptex, but that he would not recommend a latex foam. > Thanks for reminding me of what the thread was about, foam > and daptex. My > comments and doubts could be phrased as a question. Anyone > have information, > experience about ability of foamed latex to maintain its > little cells over > time/temp/moisture? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 21 09:26:22 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07251 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:26:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22929; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:21:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:17:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22552 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:17:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (wfntnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.37.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA22547 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:17:17 -0500 (EST) From: swiftjr@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 85256700.004E8052 ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:17:26 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: stephen@thermotechwindows.com cc: jfstraube@golden.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <85256700.0049041B.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:16:20 -0500 Subject: RE: GBlist: The Furnace Free House in Vermont Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5901 But,,, Marc, if you threw a SUV's (sport utility vehicle) worth of non economic conservation and renewables at your base case (Case #1) where would you end up? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To answer your question: In a house (non-furnace free) with bucket seats and power windows. But on the plus side, it would come with a 100,000 mile bumper-to-bumper warranty and air bags. But seriously, I think the underlying message in the dialog wasn't about ecomonics or payback -- because I think in that respect you are correct in what you are saying (the difficulty of justifying window coatings on economic factors alone). The dialog went much deeper than that and considered health, comfort and practicality of such a home. In my eyes, the beauty, if you will, of the dialog was Marc's thorough understanding of the subject matter, his meticulous research, his objective way of effectively communicating unbiased facts and last but not least, his patience. Joe ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 21 09:34:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07493 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:34:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23387; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:29:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:26:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23117 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA23113 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:25:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.158] (iplink158.crocker.com [205.246.4.158]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.9.2/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA30699 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:39:58 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:32:49 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Design observation on Furnace Free in Vermont Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5902 I finally got to the Furnace Free in Vermont posting. Very edifying; very high protein. Ultimately, I am puzzled. Why is a COMPLETELY solar driven building so important to Dana and Amory? This apparent need for conceptual simplicity is odd coming from the likes of Lovins and Meadows - who should be among the first to appreciate the place of complexity and redundancy in design. Amory wrote a book entitled "Brittle Power" in the early 1980's extolling such virtues, yet here we see him plugging away for putting all the eggs in one basket. The cardinal rule of the fossil fuel crowd this past century has been that brute force will fix anything if we just keep upping the flow. Here we see Amory pumping the same logic ...... if you can't conserve your way to 100% solar it's because you haven't quite got enough of it yet.... (Let alone the problem of the shifting goalposts associated with establishing 100% of what?) It is left to Marc... (enter foil-clad engineer on white pony) to make the essential, eco-logical argument: * that there is elegance in complexity; * that a redundant system has value; * that attaining that last increment involves a disproportionate investment, (and by implication, significant opportunity costs); * that designers have many design requirements to satisfy, and single issue passions breed bad solutions; and ultimately.. * that these brittle solutions, that Dana and Amory are arguing for, are failure prone. And when they do fail (and failure is judged by the owner/occupant NOT by intellectual righteousness) some hastily concocted "fix" is arranged usually by someone unfamiliar with the original design intentions, and the end result is far, far less satisfactory. In this little cameo Marc has a firm hold of the right end of the stick, and our Emperors' clothes appear a tad transparent. Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 21 10:03:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08063 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:03:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA25223; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:58:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:54:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24797 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24793 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:54:36 -0500 (EST) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id AKULa07005; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:54:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <11d7f642.36a73fa6@aol.com> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:54:30 EST To: SShell@compuserve.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Current Flyash Research Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5903 Scott - This same discussion is currently in progress on the IAQ List. Can you tell me if any of the research material you have mentioned is available on-line? Regards, Cathy Flanders IAQ List Manager & Moderator Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq IAQ Listserve (to search archives) http://www.onelist.com/archives.cgi/iaq Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://www.fiscorp.net/iaq/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 21 11:17:17 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09610 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:17:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00442; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:12:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:07:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29739 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:07:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29707; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:07:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp024.cd.centuryinter.net (ppp024.cd.centuryinter.net [209.142.147.96]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA07954; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:07:57 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36A78197.18D1@centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:35:52 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Reply-To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: coblist@deatech.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: collaborate on article Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5904 I have been asked to write an article for a local alternative paper called "Synapse". The article is to be about my experiences building an earthen plastered straw bale home in Northern Michigan. The theme of this issue of "Synapse" will be participating in government to foster change. I am looking for comments and experiences of you listers regarding dealing with local code officials in your building projects. Also comments regarding development of greener building codes. All responses used in the article will be given credit to the responder. Another aspect of the article will be encouraging education for home builders regarding green and not so green options. I remember a recent comment about PVC linked to dioxin. Is there a reliable source for that information that I could use? Thanks for any help you can offer. Keith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 21 11:29:46 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09914 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:29:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01872; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:24:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:20:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01437 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:20:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from hmhimaaa.compuserve.com (hmhimaaa.compuserve.com [149.174.177.152]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01425 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by hmhimaaa.compuserve.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/HP-1.0) id LAA11725; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:20:37 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:19:51 -0500 From: Gregory Thomas Subject: RE: GBlist: The Furnace Free House in Vermont To: Green Building List , Ron Clark , Frazer Dougherty , Al DeDominicis2 , Marguerite Towne , Mike DeWein Message-ID: <199901211120_MC2-677F-86BB@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id LAA01426 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5905 Message text written by Stephen Thwaites >Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:24:57 -0500 Doesn't it make sense to try to divert resources from other luxury purchase towards green insanity? Now i realize that in the Hartland VT case the clients don't seem to have money to burn. But,,, Marc, if you threw a SUV's worth of non economic conservation and renewables at your base case (Case #1) where would you end up? Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ottawa Canada< People pay for the SUV because it has value to them. The same thing for some high performance features on houses. It is still economics, it is just that the value is not derived from energy savings. You don't want to encourage spending money on something just because it is green. If it does not have adequate value then you shouldn't spend the money on that feature. To do so would be wasteful. We need to better promote the non-energy value of high performance features like a high mean radiant temperature, no drafts, and no condensation on the windows. And then throw in the energy savings as an added bonus to close the deal. This is about learning to sell the features of the good stuff, not religion. One of the biggest obstacles to achieving the high level of performance that we promote is the manufacturer's focus on product over system (the house-as-a-system). This is a natural problem, since they are selling a product and not a system. But the product exists within a system and the high performance will not be achieved unless there is someone to integrate the products into a system and measure the quality of the installation process. How do we create linkages between manufacturers such that we facilitate the promotion of systems that provide high performance benefits? How do we get consumers to pay for the measurement of quality, i.e. performance testing? Greg Gregory Thomas 121 Rachel Carson Way Ithaca, NY 14850 g_thomas@compuserve.com 607-277-6240 607-277-6224 fax ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 21 11:32:47 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09999 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:32:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02329; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:27:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:23:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01671 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:23:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from pct.edu (wpgate.pct.edu [12.4.137.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01661 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:23:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from Penn#032#College-Message_Server by pct.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:26:16 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:21:52 -0500 From: "Steve McCarthy" To: , Subject: Re: GBlist: Design observation on Furnace Free in Vermont Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id LAA01667 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5906 I agree Bruce! This brings to mind the comments Wes Jackson of The Land Institute made with respect to fundamentalism. Fundamentalism, whether it be related to religion, sex, food, agriculture or energy seems to be distracting and isolating and in some cases, dangerous. In this particular case, I did like the 'exercise' and the possibilities. The thinking without limits exhibited by Lovins allows the crossbar or the standard to always be set higher. 50 years ago, hardly anyone imagined a home with a design heating load of 10000 btu/hr in a northern climate, but someone did! Now its a possibility. This discussion definitely allows me to set my standards higher ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 21 11:33:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10019 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:33:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA02454; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:24:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01816 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:24:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01810 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:24:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (ipb124.st.petersburg4.fl.pub-ip.psi.net [38.30.153.124]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA08198 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:25:25 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36A70F0C.F6B11113@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:27:08 +0000 From: Cindy Shea X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: New Urbanism and Sustainability Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5907 Dear friends, In November I attended a great four-day session on New Urbanism and Sustainability in Seaside, Florida. Robert Davis, the town's developer, and Andres Duany and Elizabeth Plater-Zyberk, the town planners, gave tours and presentations. 100 invited guests, including mayors, architects, major land developers, market analysts, and academic leaders also contributed their thoughts and insights. A multi-part write up of the sessions now appears on our website and I thought many of you would be interested in reading it. The Florida Sustainable Communities Center website is at http://sustainable.state.fl.us Let me know if you have any comments. Best, Cindy Pollock Shea Contributing Editor http://sustainable.state.fl.us ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 21 14:51:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16510 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:51:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14495; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:46:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:41:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14070 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:41:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from garnet.sover.net (garnet.sover.net [209.198.87.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14062 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:41:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from sover.net (pm1a30.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.190]) by garnet.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA10251; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:42:07 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) sover.net from pm1a30.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.190] 209.198.93.190 Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:42:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36A783FA.8E691C5B@sover.net> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:46:02 -0500 From: Cindy Blakeslee Organization: The Center for Sustainble Building (Vermont) dba Residuum X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net CC: coblist@deatech.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: collaborate on article References: <36A78197.18D1@centuryinter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5908 For some information on PVC and dioxins consult http://www.greenpeaceusa.org/toxics/industry.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 21 16:31:03 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA19206 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:31:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20814; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:25:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:20:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20337 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:19:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from airmail.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.20.220]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20325 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:19:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from arb.ca.gov ([146.114.11.17]) by airmail.arb.ca.gov (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5652; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:19:03 -0800 Message-ID: <36A79AD3.454AAF65@arb.ca.gov> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 13:23:31 -0800 From: "Thomas Phillips" Organization: CARB/RD, Indoor Air Quality and Personal Exposure Assessment Program X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST CC: "Tim O'Leary" , "ROBERTS, JOHN" , "SPARK, BARBARA" , "BROOK,DAVE" , "BERGER, DAVID" Subject: GBlist: Carpets and Childhood Asthma Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D3A283F896475C15A5B06616" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5909 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D3A283F896475C15A5B06616 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim: John Roberts of Engineering Plus in Seattle has done some good work on reducing asthma triggers in homes of children, and he has reviewed the literature (see his address above). The Master Home Environmentalist program that he started in Seattle has shown some promising results. He has also worked on a program to loan out efficient vacuum cleaners to low-income households, I believe.. Another possible source of information would be the Natl. Inst. of Health (NIH) site on asthma: http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/nhlbi/lung/asthma/prof/asthhc.htm, see Management in Minority Children, and Guidelines for Diagnosis and Management.. The latter document recommends or suggests removing the carpets as one option to control animal allergens (dust mites, pet dander). Cleaning carpets with a central or high efficiency vacuum cleaner are also suggested. The National Academy of Science just held a workshop on Indoor Air and Asthma in Irvine, CA on Jan. 18: http://www4.nas.edu/webcr.nsf/ProjectScopeDisplay/HPDP-H-98-07-A?OpenDocument. The expert panel included well-known indoor air and asthma researchers. Finally, the Low Income Weatherization programs at the state level may have done remediation involving carpet, via lead remediation programs they have incorporated in recent years. Contact DOE at http://www.eren.doe.gov/buildings/state_and_community/weather/, and Affordable Comfort Inc. at http://www.affordablecomfort.org/index.html, for referrals and info. Hope this helps, Tom Phillips ========== Tim wrote: Has anyone looked into whether or not old, dirty, mold, and dander laden carpet in low income housing is a major contributor to childhood asthma. Old carpet can be nasty stuff and the probability of changing carpet, especially in low income areas, is near zero unless it is physically damaged (burned, painted, ripped, etc.) I would appreciate any references in the literature. -- Thomas J. Phillips CARB/RD, 2020 L St., POB 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 916.322.7145/4357 FAX IAQ guidelines: http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm Research summaries: http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm --------------D3A283F896475C15A5B06616 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for THOMAS J. PHILLIPS Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: THOMAS J. PHILLIPS n: PHILLIPS;THOMAS J. org: California Air Resources Board, Research Division adr: 2020 L St.;;POB 2815;Sacramento;CA;95812;USA email;internet: tphillip@arb.ca.gov title: Air Pollution Research Specialist tel;work: 916.322.7145 tel;fax: / 4357 note;quoted-printable:IAQ guidelines: http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm=0D=0A= Research summaries: http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------D3A283F896475C15A5B06616-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 21 17:16:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA20309 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:16:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA24344; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:11:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:07:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23927 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:07:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (M0umetueJsR82M/RMFKXRKhTzjrWpQEv@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23918; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 17:07:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (H4HnDeAHTDmvwkBj2ZVyqg16xW9ENCKB@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA15906; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:08:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA26460; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:07:58 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36A7A530.49FA83E0@gs.net> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:07:44 -0600 From: ledbalon X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net CC: coblist@deatech.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: collaborate on article References: <36A78197.18D1@centuryinter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5910 Keith I believe the dioxin problem is only a problem when it is burned.... in use Pvc is pretty inert. SteveP Keith Breuker wrote: > I have been asked to write an article for a local alternative paper > called "Synapse". The article is to be about my experiences building an > earthen plastered straw bale home in Northern Michigan. > > The theme of this issue of "Synapse" will be participating in government > to foster change. I am looking for comments and experiences of you > listers regarding dealing with local code officials in your building > projects. Also comments regarding development of greener building > codes. All responses used in the article will be given credit to the > responder. > > Another aspect of the article will be encouraging education for home > builders regarding green and not so green options. I remember a recent > comment about PVC linked to dioxin. Is there a reliable source for that > information that I could use? > > Thanks for any help you can offer. > > Keith > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 21 19:46:28 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA23830 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:46:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA04077; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:41:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:36:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA03669 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:36:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlas.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [209.250.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03665 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:36:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from timex.pathcom.com (ts40l27.pathcom.com [209.250.145.36]) by atlas.pathcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA22536 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:40:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901220040.TAA22536@atlas.pathcom.com> From: timex@pathcom.com To: "greenbuilding" Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 19:40:43 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: Furnace-free house Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5911 Steve: > thinking without limits > Wasn't it Henry Ford who said "When you want something done, always ask a man who doesn't know that it isn't possible." ? marilyn Cybercrone http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Keep on keepin' on. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 21 22:12:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA26424 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:12:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10263; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:06:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:02:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA09751 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA09747; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:02:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp045.cd.centuryinter.net (ppp045.cd.centuryinter.net [209.142.147.117]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA25874; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 21:01:11 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36A81AAD.5A9@centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 22:29:01 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Reply-To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: strawbale@crest.org, coblist@deatech.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Looking for work Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5912 My son Jeremiah is currently attending Portland Community College in Portland Oregon. He helped me this summer with my straw bale and earthen plastered house. He is looking for environmentally friendly part time work in Portland while attending school. Respond to me with information or questions. Thanks, Keith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 21 23:38:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA27915 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:38:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA15285; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:33:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:29:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA14998 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:29:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA14994 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:29:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.38] (rkd014.acadia.net [208.244.128.38]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA17453 for ; Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:30:42 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 23:29:25 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: RE: GBlist: The Furnace Free House in Vermont Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5913 Joe Swift wrote: >But seriously, I think the underlying message in the dialog wasn't about >ecomonics or payback -- because I think in that respect you are correct in >what you are saying (the difficulty of justifying window coatings on >economic factors alone). The dialog went much deeper than that and >considered health, comfort and practicality of such a home. In my eyes, >the beauty, if you will, of the dialog was Marc's thorough understanding of >the subject matter, his meticulous research, his objective way of >effectively communicating unbiased facts and last but not least, his >patience. end of quote In 1996, I had the good fortune to spend time in northern Europe visiting a number of environmental building projects, courtesy of the German Marshall Fund of the United States. I visited Wolfgang Feisch's "Passivhaus" prototypes in Darmstadt and Freiburg, Germany. Met Herr Feisch briefly, too - a wonderful man who is trying to help his country solve a critical housing shortage at low cost and maximum energy efficiency. It was these houses that Amory Lovins cites in his dialogue with Marc and Dana, as proof of his conviction that furnace free houses are possible. A few points to clarify: the "Passivhaus" units that Amory cites are not zero-heating-energy houses, even in the relatively easy climate of Frieburg or Darmstadt (easy compared to Hartland, VT that is). They come damn close, though: a "Passivhaus" uses as much energy for heating, domestic hot water, lights and appliances as the typical German house uses for lights and appliances alone - and that is less than the typical US or Canadioan household. Also, although the "Passivhaus" is cheap by German standards, it is expensive by US or Canadian standards, costing approximately $125 to $140 (US) a square foot to build. And alas, while "Passivhaus"'s are an incredible feat of engineering for low energy consumption, they are very, very ugly, and not very livable. Terry Brennan has been urging me to share another story of another housing project from Germany, which I'll do soon, when I've gathered my wits. I'm sad to report that Marc Rosenbaum is not participating in this list these days, which is why he is not responding to questions. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 22 11:32:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08129 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:32:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09379; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:27:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:22:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08907 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:21:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08890; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:21:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-23.netmeg.net [208.139.83.86]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA09757; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:22:34 -0500 Message-ID: <36A8A5EA.C2479F1D@swinter.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:23:06 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ledbalon CC: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net, coblist@deatech.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: collaborate on article References: <36A78197.18D1@centuryinter.net> <36A7A530.49FA83E0@gs.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5914 Hello! What about pvc dust from breakdown due to heat and uv light, Does someone know if that is a problem. I have heard it is but do not remember the specifics? debra lombard green-haus http://home.earthlink.net/~dlombard ledbalon wrote: > Keith I believe the dioxin problem is only a problem when it is burned.... > in use Pvc is pretty inert. > > SteveP > > Keith Breuker wrote: > > > I have been asked to write an article for a local alternative paper > > called "Synapse". The article is to be about my experiences building an > > earthen plastered straw bale home in Northern Michigan. > > > > The theme of this issue of "Synapse" will be participating in government > > to foster change. I am looking for comments and experiences of you > > listers regarding dealing with local code officials in your building > > projects. Also comments regarding development of greener building > > codes. All responses used in the article will be given credit to the > > responder. > > > > Another aspect of the article will be encouraging education for home > > builders regarding green and not so green options. I remember a recent > > comment about PVC linked to dioxin. Is there a reliable source for that > > information that I could use? > > > > Thanks for any help you can offer. > > > > Keith > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 22 13:16:05 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11417 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:16:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16173; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:10:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:06:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA15727 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:06:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15723 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:06:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:08:06 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E3FF@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: NYS Green Building tax Credit Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:07:59 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA15724 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5915 any listers have any info on this? Mike mrogers@vdh.state.vt.us > -----Original Message----- > From: LARAINNE KOEHLER > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 4:49 PM > Subject: NYS Green Building tax Credit - Son of HBHP > > > ...Governor Pataki included > a 'Green Building' tax credit in his NYS State of the State > address last week. The version attached was evidently > drafted by NRDC and the Real estate Board of New York. I > will try to keep you posted as this progresses through the > State Legislature. > > ------------------ > > AN ACT to amend the tax law and the education law in order to > create an income tax credit for the construction of > environmentally-sound buildings in New York State. > > The People of the State of New York, represented by > Senate and Assembly, do enact as follows:§ 1. > Declaration of policy and statement of purposes. It is the > policy of New York state to encourage the construction, > rehabilitation and maintenance of buildings in this state in > such a manner as to: > 1. Promote better environmental standards for the > construction, rehabilitation and maintenance of buildings in > the State; > 2. Improve energy efficiency and increase generation of > energy through renewable and clean energy technologies; > 3.Increase the demand for environmentally preferable building > materials, finishes and furnishings; > 4. Improve the environment by decreasing the discharge of > pollutants from buildings; > 5. Create industry and public awareness of new technologies > that can improve the quality of life for building occupants; and > 6. Improve the health and productivity of building occupants. > In order to facilitate the foregoing policies, the > legislature hereby creates an income tax credit to promote > the construction, rehabilitation and maintenance of buildings > that meet the criteria set forth in this act. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 22 13:50:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12161 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:50:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18151; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:44:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:40:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17764 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:40:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from eypdc04.eypae.com (eypdc04.eypae.com [205.234.22.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17759 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:40:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by eypdc04.eypae.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:42:15 -0500 Message-ID: <11DBE23C7D88D211A48100104B8D0940068145@ALBANY7> From: Mike Fowler To: "'Rogers, Mike'" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: RE: NYS Green Building tax Credit Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:43:13 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA17760 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5916 Mike, I just came across the following news report regarding the proposed Green Building Tax Credit for New York state from the Business Products Industry Association web site at the end of my lunch break today. And then I saw your question. Great timing! Mike Fowler Albany, NY web site source for article reprinted below http://www.bpia.org/industryreports.html/number1698/ofrfnews2.htm#green Green Building Tax Credit Legislation Proposed For New York State News: 1 December 1998 The National Resource Defense Council (NRDC) has proposed the Green Building Tax Credit legislation in New York State. If passed, the legislation would provide tax credits for increasing energy efficiency, improving indoor air quality, and reducing environmental impacts of commercial and residential buildings. One of the purposes of this policy is to "increase the demand for environmentally preferable building materials, finishes and furnishings." A total of an 8% tax credit of "allowable costs" would go to business owners and tenants as follows: Base tax credit of 5% Additional 1% tax credit for locations in empowerment zones Additional 2% tax credit if the base building and all tenant space comply "Allowable costs" include capitalized costs of items such as furniture, carpeting, partitions, walls, wall coverings, ceilings, drapes, blinds, lighting, plumbing, electrical wiring, and ventilation as well as many other building costs incurred while meeting the environmental efforts of the policy. The New York State Department of Environmental Conservation sets the criteria for the minimum percentages of recycled content for building materials, finishes, and furnishings. For more information please visit the NRDC web site at www.nrdc.org or contact OFRF program development specialist Candice Helmlinger at BPIA headquarters, (800) 542-6672. -----Original Message----- From: Rogers, Mike [mailto:MRogers@vdh.state.vt.us] Sent: Friday, January 22, 1999 1:08 PM To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: NYS Green Building tax Credit any listers have any info on this? Mike mrogers@vdh.state.vt.us > -----Original Message----- > From: LARAINNE KOEHLER > Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 4:49 PM > Subject: NYS Green Building tax Credit - Son of HBHP > > > ...Governor Pataki included > a 'Green Building' tax credit in his NYS State of the State > address last week. The version attached was evidently > drafted by NRDC and the Real estate Board of New York. I > will try to keep you posted as this progresses through the > State Legislature. > > ------------------ > > AN ACT to amend the tax law and the education law in order to > create an income tax credit for the construction of > environmentally-sound buildings in New York State. > > The People of the State of New York, represented by > Senate and Assembly, do enact as follows:§ 1. > Declaration of policy and statement of purposes. It is the > policy of New York state to encourage the construction, > rehabilitation and maintenance of buildings in this state in > such a manner as to: > 1. Promote better environmental standards for the > construction, rehabilitation and maintenance of buildings in > the State; > 2. Improve energy efficiency and increase generation of > energy through renewable and clean energy technologies; > 3.Increase the demand for environmentally preferable building > materials, finishes and furnishings; > 4. Improve the environment by decreasing the discharge of > pollutants from buildings; > 5. Create industry and public awareness of new technologies > that can improve the quality of life for building occupants; and > 6. Improve the health and productivity of building occupants. > In order to facilitate the foregoing policies, the > legislature hereby creates an income tax credit to promote > the construction, rehabilitation and maintenance of buildings > that meet the criteria set forth in this act. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 22 14:04:42 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12454 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:04:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19170; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:59:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:55:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18743 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:55:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18735 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:55:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.253.25.47] (208.253.25.47) by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:04:29 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: collaborate on article Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:01:26 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Debra Lombard" , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1295090628-1932340@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5917 Debra I don't know about PVC dust, but this brings up a related issue. We recently researched indoor lead exposure (when moving into an old house) and learned that one of the largest sources of lead today is vinyl mini-blinds. I believe someone mentioned this earlier in the PVC thread: Lead is commony used as a hardener for PVC products. Apparently enough material sloughs off the blinds to create a documented problem with the lead additive. It stands to reason that there's a lot of PVC dust floating around too. Bruce S >What about pvc dust from breakdown due to heat and uv light, Does someone >know >if that is a problem. I have heard it is but do not remember the specifics? >debra lombard >green-haus >http://home.earthlink.net/~dlombard ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 22 14:58:37 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA15512 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:58:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22059; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:53:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:47:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA21557 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:47:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from eeyore.cc.uic.edu (EEYORE.CC.UIC.EDU [128.248.171.51]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21549 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:47:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from my_machine.UIC.EDU (SLIP11A-04.DIALIN.UIC.EDU [128.248.141.136]) by eeyore.cc.uic.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA28044 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:41:08 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990122134020.006a59a4@tigger.cc.uic.edu> X-Sender: miversen@tigger.cc.uic.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 13:40:20 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Michael Iversen Subject: GBlist: GBList: Death to Drywall Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5918 As a follow-up on Alex Wilson's post (01/20/99) on "flue-gas gypsum", the following information concerning "synthetic gypsum" has been copied from the National Resource Defense Council's (NRDC) website < concerning green materials used for it's eco-office in Washington D.C. Synthetic Gypsum Walls Product Description Where building codes required gypsum to be used, we purchased wallboard manufactured with 100% synthetic gypsum that is an industrial byproduct of titanium dioxide (the principal compound used to whiten a wide variety of products, including paints) manufacture (other sources of synthetic gypsum include by-products of power plant pollution scrubbers). The recycled gypsum wallboard is faced with recycled paper. Environmental Benefit This eliminates the need to quarry an additional 4,680 cubic feet of gypsum and avoids the disposal of a similar amount of titanium dioxide manufacturing byproduct. Performance and Cost The only price differential NRDC paid for the 100% synthetic gypsum product was the shipping cost. Normally, recycled gypsum commands a 10% price premium over standard gypsum. The price of this material will likely vary depending by region and the proximity of a plant dedicated to manufacturing wallboard with 100% synthetic gypsum. The only performance difference is that the 100% synthetic product tends to have a lower moisture content and therefore is a little "thirstier" for paint. An additional coat of primer or finish paint may be required to get the desired coverage, depending upon local weather conditions (more humid climates may not encounter this problem). Other Considerations The environmental impacts of transporting materials is significant. In this case, we made a conscious effort to demonstrate a 100% recycled product, even though we had to have it shipped from Georgia where there is a plant dedicated to manufacturing with synthetic gypsum that is co-located with the titanium dioxide facility. There was a Baltimore plant that produces wallboard with some recycled gypsum amount, but they could not guarantee that it could ship the 100% recycled material. Raw and synthetic gypsum must be shipped to the Baltimore plant, which makes up for some of the "excess" transportation pollution caused by specifying the material produced in Georgia. Where to Get It NRDC obtained its 100% recycled gypsum wallboard from Domtar Corporation, which was recently acquired by Georgia-Pacific Gypsum, (800) 327-2344. Michael Roy Iversen, Architect 841 West Roscoe Street / Chicago, IL 60657-2303 Tel: 773.244.9227 Fax: 773.871.0121 E-mail: MIversen@uic.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 22 17:40:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA21866 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:40:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00382; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:34:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:30:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA00113 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:30:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA00109 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:30:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from kbell (pool-207-205-128-35.atln.grid.net [207.205.128.35]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA20072; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:30:12 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901222230.RAA20072@camel14.mindspring.com> From: "Karlene" To: "Mike Fowler" , "'Rogers, Mike'" , Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: NYS Green Building tax Credit Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 17:31:51 -0500 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5919 If its a National Resource council - why just New York? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 22 19:28:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA23648 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:28:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08941; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:21:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:17:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA08476 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:17:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA08470 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:17:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.173]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 5826200 ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:17:05 -0800 Message-ID: <36A91515.CA977AE0@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 16:17:25 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: iaq@onelist.com, "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Re: [iaq] Re: Fly Ash & Radon References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5920 Some interesting comments to date but little that refers to radon levels of fly ash and possible concerns that might arise. Some comments on this and the gb list refer to levels as meeting epa requirements (for radon and other potential hazardous ingredients. My concerns are about cumulative levels (along with aggregate and other sources) and the role that increased usage of flyash will play in raising contaminant levels in occupied spaces or in the environment affecting occupied spaces. As mentioned in another thread one can only take so many (after the fact) corrective measures and there still remain questions as to the effectiveness of ameliorative practice. Reduction of contaminants would seem to be the goal but at present are we even meeting the goal of evaluating 'acceptable' levels and are we meeting the goal of enforcing the production of material that meets those levels? These are big question marks for me and I'm troubled about the further contamination of a material that has (correctly or incorrectly) been considered relatively neutral. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 22 19:36:26 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA23733 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:36:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09820; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:30:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:26:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA09295 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:26:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09289 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:26:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-45.netcom.ca [207.181.90.109]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08461 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:27:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990122192400.00926610@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:24:55 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Norbert Senf Subject: GBlist: Bay Area Masonry Heater Ban Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_6781142==_.ALT" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5921 --=====================_6781142==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello Everyone: The Bay Area Air Quality Management District (San Francisco) has recently passed a model ordinance to restrict dirty burning fireplaces that effectively bans masonry heaters as well. This is because the ordinance specifies "EPA certified" stove only. Masonry heaters are "EPA non-affected facilities", because the EPA regulation recognizes them as inherently clean burning, thereby requiring no regulation. Over the last ten years, a substantial body of North American test data to support this claim has accumulated. The data clearly shows that masonry heaters are the cleanest way to burn cordwood, by a substantial margin. Furthermore, the EPA test protocol is impossible to do on a masonry heater, because it would require putting the massive heater on a weight scale. In order for the heater ban to happen, the ordinance has to get adopted by individual municipalities. The first municipality that will have hearings on adopting this ordinance is Berkley. We need to find a local masonry heater champion in Berkley. Attached below please a copy of some recent correspondence between myself and John Crouch, who is the Hearth Product Association's regulatory specialist. If you can help out with some contacts in Berkley, please let me know. Thanks.........Norbert Senf, (Secretary, Masonry Heater Association) --------------message separator--------------------------- > > Reply-To: > From: "John Crouch" > To: "Norbert Senf" > Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:56:18 -0800 >> >> >> (Norbert Senf wrote): >> >> We've got John Gulland hired right now to do some more work on a position >> paper that we can use for the Bay area and for future regulatory squabbles, >> which I'm sure will be coming up. >> >> Our tack is to put our fairly strict heater mason certification program on >> the table as assurance that heaters will perform as intended. Hard to get >> taken seriously by regulators when our message is so simple: burning clean >> in a masonry heater is like falling off a log, all you have to do is not >> make any obvious mistakes when you build one (or operate one, but then that >> holds for everything.) My naive assumption was that this would be considered >> good news, but I guess one big problem with regulators such as SF is that >> their mandate doesn't really extend beyond their own bailywick to include >> the environment as a whole. > > > >> >> (Reply from John Crouch): > >> >> That's exactly right Norbert, in this case, as in most, they were totally >> focused on getting people to switch to gas, everything else is secondary. >> As soon as I now the time and place of the critical meeting at Berkley I'll >> let you know. The hard part, Norbert, is you need a body, a live person who >> can be passionate about heaters. Do you have access to anyone in Berkley? > > > ---------------------------------------- > Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) > Masonry Stove Builders > RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb > Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 > ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 > > > > --=====================_6781142==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hello Everyone:

The Bay Area Air Quality Management District (San Francisco) has recently passed a model ordinance to restrict dirty burning fireplaces that effectively bans masonry heaters as well. This is because the ordinance specifies "EPA certified" stove only. Masonry heaters are "EPA non-affected facilities", because the EPA regulation recognizes them as inherently clean burning, thereby requiring no regulation.

Over the last ten years, a substantial body of North American test data to support this claim has accumulated. The data clearly shows that masonry heaters are the cleanest way to burn cordwood, by a substantial margin. Furthermore, the EPA test protocol is impossible to do on a masonry heater, because it would require putting the massive heater on a weight scale.

In order for the heater ban to happen, the ordinance has to get adopted by individual municipalities. The first municipality that will have hearings on adopting this ordinance is Berkley. We need to find a local masonry heater champion in Berkley. Attached below please a copy of some recent correspondence between myself and John Crouch, who is the Hearth Product Association's regulatory specialist. If you can help out with some contacts in Berkley, please let me know.

Thanks.........Norbert Senf, (Secretary, Masonry Heater Association)

--------------message separator---------------------------

Reply-To: <crouchpa@ix.netcom.com>
From: "John Crouch" <crouchpa@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Norbert Senf" <mheat@mha-net.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 13:56:18 -0800
 
(Norbert Senf wrote):

We've got John Gulland hired right now to do some more work on a position paper that we can use for the Bay area and for future regulatory squabbles, which I'm sure will be coming up.

Our tack is to put our fairly strict heater mason certification program on the table as assurance that heaters will perform as intended. Hard to get taken seriously by regulators when our message is so simple: burning clean in a masonry heater is like falling off a log, all you have to do is not make any obvious mistakes when you build one (or operate one, but then that holds for everything.) My naive assumption was that this would be considered good news, but I guess one big problem with regulators such as SF is that their mandate doesn't really extend beyond their own bailywick to include the environment as a whole.


(Reply  from John Crouch):
 That's exactly right Norbert, in this case, as in most, they were totally focused on getting people to switch to gas, everything else is secondary.  As soon as I now the time and place of the critical meeting at Berkley I'll let you know.  The hard part, Norbert, is you need a body, a live person who can be passionate about heaters.  Do you have access to anyone in Berkley?

----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam)
Masonry Stove Builders  
RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb              
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092
                        
                
                                

--=====================_6781142==_.ALT-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 22 22:23:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA26782 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:23:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA17733; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:17:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:13:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17459 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from x16.boston.juno.com (x16.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17455 for ; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from shardon5@juno.com) by x16.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DZL8UBSN; Fri, 22 Jan 1999 22:14:30 EST To: terrain@cow-net.com Cc: iaq@onelist.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 18:32:12 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: [iaq] Re: Fly Ash & Radon Message-ID: <19990122.201013.-209591.3.shardon5@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: sharon j emley Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5922 Hi, my understanding of a prior communication was that the fly ash had less radon output than the portland cement that it was replacing. Don Arkin ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 23 05:41:17 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA00686 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 05:41:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA29211; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 05:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 Jan 1999 05:31:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA29002 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 05:31:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA28997 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 05:31:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-10-154.cyberzone.net [209.150.10.154]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 05:13:40 -0500 Message-ID: <36A9D044.96A@cyberzone.net> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 05:36:04 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5923 Does anyone know of a "best" way to provide combustion air to a masonry fireplace (located on an outside wall)? Just looking for a real world "reality check" in the land of home building! Thanks Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 23 06:19:34 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA00871 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 06:19:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA00450; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 06:14:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 Jan 1999 06:10:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA00165 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 06:10:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA00159 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 06:10:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-10-156.cyberzone.net [209.150.10.156]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 05:52:31 -0500 Message-ID: <36A9D95B.47AB@cyberzone.net> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 06:14:51 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Harazim Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air Part 2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5924 There appear to be lots of gizmos on the market for increasing the "efficiency" of a fireplace (blowers, metal plates, etc.) Does anyone have any experience with such devices? I recognize that a fireplace without glass doors is one of the best means of heating the outdoors while providing enough air changes for a surgical suite! Would one of these devices, combined with glass doors and exterior combustion air, provide some benefit? Thanks! Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 23 15:52:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA07229 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:52:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18006; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:47:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:42:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17526 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:42:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17522 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:42:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on4-17.netcom.ca [207.181.90.209]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13500; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:42:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990123152838.00add3b0@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 15:40:00 -0400 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air Part 2 Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <36A9D95B.47AB@cyberzone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5925 At 06:14 AM 23/01/99 -0800, Dan Harazim wrote: >Does anyone know of a "best" way to provide combustion air to a masonry >fireplace (located on an outside wall)? Just looking for a real world "...located on an outside wall" -- unless it is inside the thermal envelope, this is a REALLY bad idea. Forget about trying to increase the efficiency of the fireplace unless you fix this big thermal leak in your envelope first. I know, everybody does it -- that doesn't change the laws of physics, however. >"reality check" in the land of home building! >There appear to be lots of gizmos on the market for increasing the >"efficiency" of a fireplace (blowers, metal plates, etc.) Does anyone >have any experience with such devices? Waste of time. I recognize that a fireplace >without glass doors is one of the best means of heating the outdoors >while providing enough air changes for a surgical suite! Would one of >these devices, combined with glass doors and exterior combustion air, >provide some benefit? The biggest improvement you could make would be a set of airtight glass doors. Unfortunately, none of the glass doors available for masonry fireplaces are airtight. The only sources I'm aware of are Jim Buckley at www.rumford.com and Jerry Frisch at Jerry Frisch Lopez Quarries Masonry Heaters 111 Barbara Lane Everett WA 98203 (425)353-8963 FAX 742-3361 frischro@premier1.net Jerry has also developed a combustion air supply that is optimized for airtight doors and improves emissions performance dramatically. A woodburning open masonry fireplace is about 2 to 5 times dirtier than an EPA woodstove. Outside combustion air has no effect on efficiency. No data to date has shown it to have any positive effect whatsoever. I can provide references if you would like. There is some discussion on this in the archives. Best...........Norbert Senf ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 23 17:05:31 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA08536 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:05:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20915; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:59:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:55:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20577 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:55:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20573 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:55:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com [world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]] by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA12187; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:56:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA20522; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:56:37 -0500 Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:56:37 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Norbert Senf Cc: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding@crest.org, "Ross M. Donald" Subject: GBlist: fireplace on outside wall, what to do? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990123152838.00add3b0@mha-net.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5926 Is there a retrofit solution? If the back were insulated that would help. Would the addition of usable floor area, surrounding the fireplace, effectively bring it inside the thermal envelop? Dan, which wall holds the FP.? N, E, S, or W? Maybe there are creative multi-functioning options. I could see storage (bookshelves) on a Northwall, glazing on the South... -Ross On Sat, 23 Jan 1999, Norbert Senf wrote: > At 06:14 AM 23/01/99 -0800, Dan Harazim wrote: > >Does anyone know of a "best" way to provide combustion air to a masonry > >fireplace (located on an outside wall)? Just looking for a real world > > "...located on an outside wall" -- unless it is inside the thermal > envelope, this is a REALLY bad idea. Forget about trying to increase the > efficiency of the fireplace unless you fix this big thermal leak in your > envelope first. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 23 19:38:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA10207 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA27723; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:27:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA27343 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:27:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from x16.boston.juno.com (x16.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA27339 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:27:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from shardon5@juno.com) by x16.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id DZPHQY5U; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:28:26 EST To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:23:19 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air Part 2 Message-ID: <19990123.172418.-202909.1.shardon5@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: sharon j emley Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5927 Hi Dan, A engineer friend of mine got interested in this subject when he built his new house. After researching commercial fireplaces, buying the one with the best home- heating efficiency, finding it's advertised values to be about 300% overstated and successfully suing them for a refund, he designed his own. His system uses a gas log behind glass doors but would work with any fire. The key is the surround of the firebox which is built into the wall. He had a welder build a tall hollow steel U with the fire in the cavity of the U. There are a spiral of baffles and air channels in the hollow which act as a heat exchanger with something like an 80 or 90 % effiency of fire BTU's going into room air. The hot air travels through the house in hollow soffits w/o a fan once the fire has been going awhile. Don Arkin ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 23 21:40:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14044 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:40:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA02938; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:33:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:29:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA02655 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:29:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA02651 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:29:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on3-13.netcom.ca [207.181.90.141]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA20239; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:29:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990123211639.0094e530@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:27:00 -0400 To: Renewable News Network From: Norbert Senf Subject: GBlist: Re: fireplace on outside wall, what to do? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990123152838.00add3b0@mha-net.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5928 At 04:56 PM 23/01/99 -0500, you wrote: >Is there a retrofit solution? > >If the back were insulated that would help. Would the addition of usable >floor area, surrounding the fireplace, effectively bring it inside the >thermal envelop? > Certainly anything to bring it inside the envelope would help. If airtight glass doors were added, the benefit from the extra efficiency would help heat the house rather than the outside. Where (geographically) is the house located? Better than nothing would be to insulate between the firebrick firebox and masonry casing with a 6:1 vermiculite:portland mix. There can be numerous variables, and having an outside masonry chimney (particularly in a cold climate) stacks the deck against you..........Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 23 23:02:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA14855 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:02:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA06329; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:56:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:52:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA05995 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:52:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-gateway.csgrp.com (smtp-gateway.csgrp.com [207.31.245.98]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA05991 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:52:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901240352.WAA05991@solstice.crest.org> Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 22:49 -0500 From: "John Livermore" To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Fireplace doors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5929 Another source of high quality airtight fireplace glass doors is: Wilkening Fireplace Co. HCR 73 Box 625 Walker, MN 56484 800-367-7976 Conservation Services Group 441 Stuart Street - 5th Floor Boston, Massachusetts 02116 617.236.1500 voice 617.236.7899 fax If you have received this mail in error or wish to comment on any aspect of it, please contact Mark Baker at mark.baker@csgrp.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 24 00:07:30 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA15571 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:07:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA08472; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:02:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:58:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA08170 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:58:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from .www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA08166 for ; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:58:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ivnet.net (ip13.ivnet.net [206.101.73.173]) by .www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA06099; Sat, 23 Jan 1999 20:48:03 -0800 Message-ID: <36A571DF.4296E632@ivnet.net> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:04:15 -0800 From: Bruce X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Russel DeLombard CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Thermal Performance and CMU References: <002901be42c7$d9a97880$b32cdccf@upesi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5930 I wouldn't hesitate to use a steel panel for a wall in an area with salt spray, if the panel had a suitable finish. And maintenance would be neglible. Some roof metal finishes are warranted for forty years against fading, there is no reason they couldn't be used for a wall. I have used them for walls in highly corrosive environments with no problems. Russel DeLombard wrote: > > > >Another possibilty is the use of a lightweight vented facade over > >insulation, such as Hardi-plank over insulation, or metal panels, or even > >wood cladding, depending on the needs and architectural program. > > The owners brief also mandates longevity and minimal maintenance of the > exterior materials. The site is exposed to salt water so corrosion is a > concern where metal is concerned and wood or Hardi-plank will require > periodic and painting. Although the CMU would also require periodic > cleaning and > resealing, it seems that it would be less frequent and longer lived than > wood or wood based products. > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 24 02:30:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA16846 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:30:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA12898; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:24:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:21:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA12695 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:21:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA12691 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:20:58 -0500 (EST) From: Bagelhole1@aol.com Received: from Bagelhole1@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 1RVNa04794 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:21:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:21:33 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: And now for something completely different, but related of course Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5931 LETS TAKE THE NEXT STEPS ALL TOGETHER NOW I would like to suggest a way, and see what you all think. 1.I think we need to prioritize creating self-sustainability for everyone, home-owners, apartment dwellers, homeless and poor, neighborhoods, with low-tech, home-made style self-sustainability ideas. If we can come up with this list, by bringing this idea to the attention of everyone we can, mine the ingeniousness of humanity thru the web, to have this list in place, within 3 months, so that when the general public is aware of the possibility of infrastructure breakdown for an indefinite period there will be a place for them to direct their energy and implement to make the self-sustainable neighborhoods, globally. Otherwise they won't know what to do, just like right now, other than the idea of stockpiling, with the existence of this list, they will have something to do: implementing these ideas as fast as they can. The challenge to the y2k conscious is to get this type of substantive contingency in place before 2000. Then no one need die or suffer unnecessarily, nor do we need the imposition of martial law, no need for global panic, as the shit approaches the fan, and we lay the groundwork for what people (mostly) seem to be craving in their hearts: a new better way of living on this planet. That is, self-sustainable, ecological, no waste, mutually co-operative, web of autonomous communities to which we are all members, fluid, consensual, interconneted through the web, various, multidimensional, unique, non- sovereign. Only the individual need be sovereign. This would lead to the end of violence dominated, waste/suicide culture that exists today. First, the funky self-sustainable part before 2000. Create the safety net, the organic structure from the grass roots. Not everyone needs to be working on this right now. 2. There are many other issues that need to be addressed. Like nuclear missiles. While governments still exist they have the premise of being responsible, and they need to be made to disassemble every nuclear missile that exists before 2000. They have no right to jeopardize the planet by keeping these intact when y2k threatens, by creating the possibility of them accidentally going off. A huge list of people, and organizations, created thru the web is one way of exerting pressure on the powers to be is one idea. 3. Another priority is gaining help from those gov't. orgs that are there to help, and don't quite know what to do. There is many instances where the government have indicated their willingness to enter into a mutually co- operative mode with citizen action groups and volunteers. The Redcross, Fema, DOE, Gov't emerg. groups and orgs like NERT(neighborhood emergency relief team). They need to be directed towards publicizing the call for lo-tech sustainable ideas, stockpiling for endangered or challenged communities like homeless, disabled, drug dependent, poor people in projects, hospitals, pharmacies, locating and coordinating parts for maintenance of all mechanical devices, organizing collectives and whereabouts of resources and skills are a few things these orgs. can help address and sponsor. Citizen volunteers providing the manpower along with skills and ideas. And many other areas that people can add to the list of what needs to be addressed. 4. Websites that already exist can co-ordinate all the activity that is going on everywhere, to make sure that the best of the best is easily available, and that it is consistently improving. A lot like what the Cassandra project is doing already. All these activities to be carried out by volunteers, those who hear the call. Simplicity is key to everything, faith in the process, try to be a model. Community building is the antidote to alienation, one of the things that have unhinged so many people. It is healing. Only need to control your need to control. These ideas are a gift from the Universe, they don't belong to me or anyone, do they make sense, could you show me the flaws, so we can improve them. I'm tired of so much talk, leading nowhere. Let each of us be guided by our hearts, not our fears, not outside experts. The meaningfulness of life is directly related to how much you allow yourself to care, in my opinion. Lets stop having the blind lead the blind. Group mind is thru the internet, I realize most of the world isn't connected to the Internet, but we are not forgetting about these people. They can be communicated with appropriately thru media and hard copy. But they will learn anyway, soon enough, and we don't need to necessarily "educate" them. We just need to provide a way for them, thru organizing over the web, creating the appropriate lists and making them available, and addressing what must be addressed now. We can do it ourselves. The internet makes it possible. Freedom is directly related to responsibility. The more free you are, the more willing and able you are to shoulder the responsibility. The ability to respond to what's happening right now. We all need to be free, you can't be free if you are addicted, attached, or dogmatic. I realize that we are all capable of the entire range of human behaviour, human nature is fluid, adaptable. We need to be flexperts, drop all our sticky attachments, notice our deep interdependence and change it to interdependance. All of us can be self-deluded at any moment, this obvious realization, should keep our minds open. Each one of us has the ability to discern to determine what is really real, so that our response is appropriate. Fear and greed have alot to do with obfuscating the reality and causing distorted and inappropriate reactions. When people, put aside the tendency to compete thru egos, and pull together in our big moment of truth, and we can feel at last, at home, and connected with all of humanity, our family, take a deep breath and breathe a deep sigh of relief, accepting our differences and individuality, but acknowledging our equality, in our insignificance(in relationship to the Universe), in the fact that we all share the same dilemma and ultimate destiny, in that we are all more or less, relatively speaking, the same distance from the source, or whatever unifies the Universe, that our only hope is to drop the shit and pull together. . . We can begin to joyfully acknowledge the hope and possibility that exists in times of chaos and crisis that is in each of our hearts, right this moment, and from now on. I hope these thoughts mirror yours and resonate, and that there is a general consensus, that we can move into action/collaboration and to continue to focus and refocus, increasing our effectiveness and succeed in achieving substantive community contingency preparation for y2k before 2000, or any other of the numerous looming disasters that make our existences so tenuous, and have a happy new year. In Unity, 824-4214 bagelhole1@aol.com Tom O (bagelhole1) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 24 07:26:05 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA18286 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 07:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA18177; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 07:20:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 24 Jan 1999 07:16:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA17921 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 07:16:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA17917 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 07:16:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-36.netcom.ca [207.181.90.100]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA28464 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 07:17:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990124064344.0095c4d0@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 06:51:27 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Norbert Senf Subject: GBlist: Fwd: (long) Viridian Note 00043: the Viridian Electrical Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5932 One of my favorite lists these days is writer Bruce Sterling's Viridian list. It is a fresh take on global warming, with the idea of developing a media package for Y2K, when he speculates that media will be looking for "new" stories and spin, befitting a new millenium. Here's today's Viridian Note: ........Norbert Senf >Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:20:22 -0600 (CST) >To: Viridian List >From: Bruce Sterling >Reply-To: >Subject: Viridian Note 00043: the Viridian Electrical > >Meter > >Key concepts: imaginary products, electrical meters > >Attention Conservation Notice: It's another whimsical >"product" that doesn't yet exist, but might end up in a >Viridian catalog someday. > >Entries in the Viridian "Fungal Typography" Contest: >http://members.aol.com/stjude/ >http://www.saunalahti.fi/~jtlin/viridian/ >http://www.wenet.net/~scoville/Viridian/viridiantext.html >http://www.erols.com/ljaurbach/ >http://www.empathy.com/viridian/ >http://www.spaceways.de/Viridian/Viridiantype.html >http://www.stewarts.org/users/stewarts/viridian.html >http://way.nu/greens/typography.html >http://abe.burmeister.com/viridian2dot1.html >http://rampages.onramp.net/~jzero/viridian/ >http://www.msys.net/reid/main.html >This contest embraces decay on January 31, 01999. >For contest instructions see Note 00027. > >"The Viridian Electrical Meter" > >Concept: SeJ@aol.com^^^^** (Stefan Jones) > >Ad copy: bruces@well.com (Bruce Sterling) > > "One of the most offensive artifacts of the >twentieth century is the standard household energy meter. >This ugly gizmo clings like a barnacle to the outside of >your home, readable only by functionaries. Clumsily >painted in battleship gray, this network spy device >features creepy, illegible little clock-dials, under an >ungainly glass dome. Look a bit closer, and this user- >hostile interface deliberately insults you, with a hateful >anti-theft warning, and a foul little lockbox. > > "This crass device is designed to leave you in >stellar ignorance of your own energy usage. It publicly >brands you as a helpless peon, a technically-illiterate >source of cash for remote, uncaring utility lords. > > "But today, thanks to the Viridian Electrical >Meter, the tables are turned. The Viridian Meter is not >some utility spy device, but a user-owned art object! >Based on the popular "plasma globe," this interactive >meter/installation will grace any 21st-century living >room. The attractively sizzling "Magic Sphere" perches on >a beautiful, visionary plant-stand, inspired by noted >designers Hector Guimard and Albert Paley! > > "The Viridian Meter is pre-set with the standard >demographic energy consumption of your biome and climatic >area. Network brownouts and spikes produce visible, >spitting anomolies, quickly warning you to protect your >valuable household gizmos from the incompetent vagaries of >the local utility. When your home's energy use grows >excessive, the plasma-globe arcs up with a warning red >crackle. Best of all, feeding energy from your home into >the grid causes the Viridian Meter to reverse its >polarity, displaying its internal aurora in a cool, lovely >green! Guests in your home will soon see that your solar >panels (and/or fuel cells and windmills) free our planet >from the nasty burdens of fossil-fuel. When your child >comes home from school, all long-faced about environmental >decline and horrific weather anomalies, your conscience >will be certifiably clear! "See our Meter, honey? Look! >It runs green!" > >Stefan Jones (SeJ@aol.com^^^^**) >Bruce Sterling (bruces@well.com) > > ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 24 11:23:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20022 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:23:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA03683; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:17:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:13:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03426 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:13:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03422 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:13:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id KAA0000027090; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:15:00 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990124161800.007044b4@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:18:00 -0600 To: Norbert Senf , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5933 "Outside combustion air has no effect on efficiency" May not have effect on efficiency but for the sake of indoor air quality I sure don't want to use inside air for the combustion. We recently purchased a new small stove with a knock-out in the bottom just so we could run a duct from the outside to provide the necessary air. Know a stove isn't a fireplace but the principle ought to be the same, isn't this so? Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 24 12:01:21 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA20736 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:01:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05055; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:55:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:52:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA04782 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:52:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA04778 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:52:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com [world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]] by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA18141; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:53:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA02240; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:53:19 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:53:19 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: "David F. Lambertson" Cc: Norbert Senf , greenbuilding@crest.org, "Ross M. Donald" Subject: Re: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19990124161800.007044b4@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5934 Dear Norbert, I wondered about this assertion and the overall contention/conclusion that outside combustion air may not be required nor desired. I was not able to access the archives (where are they?) to review prior discussion, so this may have been covered, but... ...combustion air is required for gas fired furnaces, and I assume for oil fired units, too, in that, a boiler/furnace room requires venting, typically through louvred doors, to allow sufficient air supply from the rest of the traditionally leaky basement area. In the same way, at some point, a tight house must, likewise, prevent adequate combustion air supply. The flue draft would be choked off. I don't know about masonry fireplaces and wood stoves, but, once the above was assumed, other matters were raised, such as the possibility that lower temperature outside air might reduce the combustion chamber temps to the extent that there might be a dirty burn, byproduct buildup in the flue, or other general inefficiencies and dangers.. Central air to air heat exchangers, for fresh air and efficiencies, are standard practise for higher moisture areas (whereever there is water use) in energy efficient buildings. Do I have to back to square one regarding bringing in air for combustion? Yours truly, Ross On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, David F. Lambertson wrote: > "Outside combustion air has no effect on efficiency" > > May not have effect on efficiency but for the sake of indoor air quality I > sure don't want to use inside air for the combustion. We recently purchased > a new small stove with a knock-out in the bottom just so we could run a duct > from the outside to provide the necessary air. Know a stove isn't a > fireplace but the principle ought to be the same, isn't this so? Sacie > Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ Send press releases, announcements, and notices of interest to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 To receive the next edition of the Environmental Review, send, subscribe er-list, to ; for Solar Utilities info, send, subscribe solar_utilities ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 24 12:56:34 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA21486 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:56:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA07782; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:51:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:46:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA07392 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:46:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA07379 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:46:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-44.netcom.ca [207.181.90.108]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16378; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:47:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990124124415.00927100@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 12:44:29 -0400 To: Renewable News Network From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5935 At 11:53 AM 24/01/99 -0500, Renewable News Network wrote: >Dear Norbert, > >I wondered about this assertion and the overall contention/conclusion >that outside combustion air may not be required nor desired. I was not >able to access the archives (where are they?) to review prior discussion, >so this may have been covered, but... > (long snip) 15 years ago, everybody thought that outside combustion air was a good idea, including myself. Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp, Research Division, conducted extensive research in the 1980's on the issues of venting, outside air and indoor air quality. Their Canadian Housing Information Centre (613)748-2312 can supply a long list of research reports. I've reviewed most of that information, in addition to a couple of later studies done by others. I'll repeat my claim that nowhere did I find any indication of positive benefits to outside air, strange as it may seem at first glance. Here's one potential problem with outside air: if the outside air inlet in the house envelope is located on the leeward side of the house, then when there is a strong wind, there will be strong negative pressure there. It can be as high as -50 pa. What happens then is that your outside air duct, directly connected to your firebox, can become a chimney and burn your house down, unless you use an insulated stainless chimney for a duct. There is a famous video made by a homeowner of the flames in his fireplace getting sucked into the airwash slot at the top of his glass doors. The main issue is really house depressurization, and this is addressed by makeup air to the room, and not by combustion air directly to the firebox. Negative pressure is a main issue in "the house as a system" concept pioneered by CMHC. It is a big topic, and an excellent reference is "The Fireplace in the House as a System" by John Gulland, http://www.gulland.ca/book.htm Briefly, the main source of negative pressure in tight houses is usually, but not always, exhaust appliances. The Jennaire downdrafting kitchen range is the worst culprit. The Canadian Homebuilders Association http://www.chba.ca has a publication titled "R-2000 Makeup Air Guidelines" that describes a method for testing house pressure and providing makeup air. I believe that the procedure is also described in John's book. What CMHC found from their testing was that most fireplaces operated properly up to about -5pa, so they set that as the "House Depressurization Limit", HDL. With high negative pressure, your fireplace or your woodstove can spill. Your woodstove is supposed to be airtight, but it isn't, since gasket wear out, etc. Let's say you load it full of wood and go to bed: at the tail end of the burn you have a charcoal fire, which is essentially a carbon monoxide fire (blue flames). With a low mass insulated metal chimney, or an outside masonry chimney, the flue temperature and hence the available draft go down. If for some reason you have negative pressure where the stove is, for example if the stove is located in the basement and you open a second floor window, you can get CO spillage into the house. Best bet by far is to buy a Nighthawk brand battery powered CO detector with LCD readout at Home Depot or Walmart for about $50. If you supply outside air directly to the stove firebox, you'd think that that would solve a negative pressure problem. In fact it doesn't. The reason is that the pressure is negative RELATIVE to something, namely, outside pressure. If you duct outside pressure to the firebox, it doesn't change anything, in fact it can make the situation worse. Best............Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 24 14:02:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA22081 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:02:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10502; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:57:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:53:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA10112 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:53:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10102 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:53:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com [world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]] by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id NAA29158; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:54:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA10845; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:54:29 -0500 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:54:29 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Norbert Senf Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990124124415.00927100@mha-net.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5936 On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Norbert Senf wrote: > At 11:53 AM 24/01/99 -0500, Renewable News Network wrote: > >I wondered about this assertion and the overall contention/conclusion > >that outside combustion air may not be required nor desired. > (long snip) > 15 years ago, everybody thought that outside combustion air was a good > idea, including myself. .... > ...I'll repeat my claim that nowhere did I find > any indication of positive benefits to outside air, strange as it may seem > at first glance. How about necessary required combustion air considerations. I'm still left assuming that there must be some need, in very tight houses, for designed air supply, otherwise, there would be no make up air for combustion exhaust air going up the flue and out of the house. Where's the make up air coming from, if not from the outside? > Here's one potential problem with outside air: if the outside air inlet in > the house envelope is located on the leeward side of the house, then when Solution (spec): do not locate combustion air inlet, where negative pressure would be produced. > there is a strong wind, there will be strong negative pressure there. It > can be as high as -50 pa. What happens then is that your outside air duct, > directly connected to your firebox, can become a chimney and burn your > house down, unless you use an insulated stainless chimney for a duct. Or, unless, there is a backdraft damper or backflow preventer installed in the duct. > There > is a famous video made by a homeowner of the flames in his fireplace > getting sucked into the airwash slot at the top of his glass doors. Why would there be an "airwash slot" at the top? And why would it be open, with a high flame? Wouldn't any openings be at the bottom? I suspect that anybody could burn a house down if they really tried. > The main issue is really house depressurization, and this is addressed by > makeup air to the room, You mean, an open window? ...or an equivalent hole in the wall?? > and not by combustion air directly to the firebox. > Negative pressure is a main issue in "the house as a system" concept > pioneered by CMHC. It is a big topic, and an excellent reference is "The > Fireplace in the House as a System" by John Gulland, > http://www.gulland.ca/book.htm I'll check it out. I thought we liked a slight negative pressure, or neutral, at minimum, over positive house pressure. > Briefly, the main source of negative pressure in tight houses is usually, > but not always, exhaust appliances. The Jennaire downdrafting kitchen range > is the worst culprit. The Canadian Homebuilders Association > http://www.chba.ca has a publication titled "R-2000 Makeup Air Guidelines" > that describes a method for testing house pressure and providing makeup > air. I believe that the procedure is also described in John's book. Thanks for the lead. Just what I need - another book to read. > What CMHC found from their testing was that most fireplaces operated > properly up to about -5pa, so they set that as the "House Depressurization > Limit", HDL. > With high negative pressure, your fireplace or your woodstove can spill. > Your woodstove is supposed to be airtight, but it isn't, since gasket wear > out, etc. > > Let's say you load it full of wood and go to bed: at the tail end of the > burn you have a charcoal fire, which is essentially a carbon monoxide fire > (blue flames). With a low mass insulated metal chimney, or an outside > masonry chimney, the flue temperature and hence the available draft go > down. How about a temperature actuated damper. > If for some reason you have negative pressure where the stove is, for > example if the stove is located in the basement and you open a second floor > window, you can get CO spillage into the house. Reminds me of the Henny Youngman joke: Patient: Doctor, Doctor, it hurts when I do this! Doctor: Don't do that. > Best bet by far is to buy a > Nighthawk brand battery powered CO detector with LCD readout at Home Depot > or Walmart for about $50. > > If you supply outside air directly to the stove firebox, you'd think that > that would solve a negative pressure problem. In fact it doesn't. The > reason is that the pressure is negative RELATIVE to something, namely, > outside pressure. Here's an idea. Make it fan powered. You'd have a super-charged firebox! Ok, so its not really a new idea - I recall the University of Maine had a research project on very efficient small wood stoves. They recycled the flue gases for a second pass at the rather high temp flames. Kinda cumbersome, but the efficiencies were great and the final exhaust, they reported, was very clean. > If you duct outside pressure to the firebox, it doesn't change anything, in > fact it can make the situation worse. A bad design will always make things worse. If there are no HVACers or boiler makers out there, I may have to check out the code on make up air for oil/gas furnaces, some rainy day. Forget efficiency, I'm not persuaded the more basic issue has been addressed. Yours truly, Ross > Best............Norbert > > > ---------------------------------------- > Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) > Masonry Stove Builders > RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb > Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 > ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 Send press releases, announcements, and notices of interest to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 To receive the next edition of the Environmental Review, send, subscribe er-list, to ; for Solar Utilities info, send, subscribe solar_utilities ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 24 18:09:47 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA29063 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21656; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:03:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:57:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA21132 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:57:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21127 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:57:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on6-38.netcom.ca [207.181.91.166]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA12808; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:57:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990124172227.00aa0220@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:55:00 -0400 To: Renewable News Network From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, john@gulland.ca In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990124124415.00927100@mha-net.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5937 At 01:54 PM 24/01/99 -0500, Ross wrote: >How about necessary required combustion air considerations. I'm still >left assuming that there must be some need, in very tight houses, for >designed air supply, otherwise, there would be no make up air for >combustion exhaust air going up the flue and out of the house. Where's >the make up air coming from, if not from the outside? This issue came up a number of years ago for masonry heaters and R-2000 houses. I did a study for CMHC http://mha-net.org/msb/html/papers-n/airreq/cmhc-rep.htm We measured the air consumption on a number of masonry heaters in fast burn mode, and they were below 30 l/sec. Then we took a piece of simulation software that CMHC had developed, FLUESIM http://mha-net.org/html/software.htm and simulated this amount of air consumption in the tightest house that I could find, built by a friend of mine who is a crack R-2000 carpenter. This was his own house, and it pressure tested to an equivalent leakage area of 25 sq. in. (Actually, when they do the R-2000 blower door test they tape up the 2 5" dia. HRV ducts, so the house is actually 3 times leakier than the test indicates, from a depressurization point of view.) Anyway, with the ducts taped up, and a masonry heater running full blast, the simulation showed a depressurization of 2 pa. In other words, all you need to do to make a supertight house leak 30 l/sec is depressurize it by 2 pa. For a 50 x 50 house with an 8 ft ceiling, 30 l/sec (=64 cfm) works out to about 0.2 air changes per hour. Interestingly enough, when we unplugged the 2 air changer holes (virtually) and added an open woodfired fireplace with an 8 x 12 inch modular flue liner, the depressurization was only about 5 pa, ie., right at the allowable limit. In other words, you can have an open fireplace in an airtight house without makeup air (Don't tell anyone, particularly a building scientist - they won't take you seriously. This result contradicts sacred preconceptions) >Or, unless, there is a backdraft damper or backflow preventer installed in >the duct. Yes. You'd have to get one fabricated. If you find one off the shelf, let me know. > >> There >> is a famous video made by a homeowner of the flames in his fireplace >> getting sucked into the airwash slot at the top of his glass doors. > >Why would there be an "airwash slot" at the top? And why would it be >open, with a high flame? Wouldn't any openings be at the bottom? In modern woodstoves and fireplaces, part of the combustion air is introduced at the top of the glass doors. The cold air clings to the glass and falls down, thus "washing" the glass with air and keeping it from getting dirty. > I suspect that anybody could burn a house down if they really tried. Very true. This guy wasn't trying. He was using a UL listed appliance properly installed according to the terms of its listing, and meeting applicable building code provisions for outside air. >> The main issue is really house depressurization, and this is addressed by >> makeup air to the room, > >You mean, an open window? ...or an equivalent hole in the wall?? Exactly. >I'll check it out. I thought we liked a slight negative pressure, or >neutral, at minimum, over positive house pressure. Neutral is where you want to be. Positive is good news for the stove, very bad news for the house (structural moisture damage). (snip) >> Let's say you load it full of wood and go to bed: at the tail end of the >> burn you have a charcoal fire, which is essentially a carbon monoxide fire >> (blue flames). With a low mass insulated metal chimney, or an outside >> masonry chimney, the flue temperature and hence the available draft go >> down. > >How about a temperature actuated damper. If you have the above-described scenario in your house, you have a dangerous situation, which the CO detector can alert you to. The thing to fix is the house, not the stove. Make the Jenaire, or whatever, responsible for the consequences of depressurizing the house, don't put it on the combustion appliance. In case I don't already sound like I'm on a soapbox, let me get on one: builders who build airtight houses without also putting in an HRV don't really understand these concepts. Best...........Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 25 00:20:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA05230 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:20:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA07839; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:15:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:11:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA07590 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:11:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from dub-img-4.compuserve.com (dub-img-4.compuserve.com [149.174.206.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA07586 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:11:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by dub-img-4.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.17) id AAA02529 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:12:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:11:00 -0500 From: Scott Shell Subject: GBlist: EPA on Radon in Flyash To: GBlist Message-ID: <199901250012_MC2-67D8-2144@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id AAA07587 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 5938 The following is an excerpt from the EPA's "Cement and Concrete Containing Fly Ash; Guideline for Federal Procurement" as published in the Federal Register / Vol. 48, No. 20 / Friday, January 28, 1983 / Rules and Regulations: (c) Radioactivity Issues. At the same time as original proposal of the hazardous waste regulations (December 18, 1978), EPA issued an advance notice of proposed rulemaking that it was considering establishing 5 picocuries per gram [pCi/g] of radium-226 as a criterion for listing wastes as hazardous. The notice also requested comment on other criteria which might tend to affect the radiation hazard. Among these is the emanation rate of radon from the waste. The agency has, at this date, taken no further action on this proposed rulemaking to establish general criteria for hazardous radioactivity levels in wastes. Where resource recovery is practiced, an important consideration in assessing the hazard is the proposed use of the waste material. While some proportion of fly ash generated in the U.S. has more than 5 pCi/g of radium-226, the physical structure of fly ash is such that its contribution to radiation exposure is probably less than that of most normal constituents of concrete which generally fall below this level. This is explained below. A few commenters expressed concern to EPA that fly ash used in the construction of habitable structures could pose a threat to public health due to radioactivity. The source of the radiation threat is due to radium-226, a radioactive isotope which occurs naturally in soil, sand, and mineral deposits as well as in fly ash. The radium-226 content of soil generally ranges from .2 to 3 pCi/g. Limited measurements of radioactivity in cement show that the redium-226 content of cement can be as high as 5 pCi/g, but typically averages close to 1 pCi/g. Limited measurements of fly ash presently generated in the U.S. show a radium-226 content ranging from 1 to 8 pCi/g with an average of roughly 4 /Ci/g. There are two pathways of radiation exposure from radium-226 in building materials. The pathway of primary concern is from inhalation of radon-222 and its short-lived decay products. Radon-222, an inert gas with a radioactive half-life of 3.8 days, is the first generation decay product of radium-226. Because it is an inert gas, it can readily migrate from the building material into the indoor air of a home. Although the rate at which radon is created within a building material is proportional to its radium content, the intrinsic structure of the material may, in some cases, prevent most of the radon from escaping. When air containing radon and its radioactive decay products is breathed for long periods of time, a person's risk of lung cancer is increased. Gamma radiation from radium-226 and its decay products is the other exposure pathway. The amount of gamma radiation emission from a building material is proportional to its radium content, but the total exposure a person receives will also depend on other factors such as shielding, distance from the material, and exposure time. Exposure to gamma radiation results in an increased risk of many types of cancer. When fly ash is used as a partial cement replacement in concrete, the fly ash content of the final concrete product is between 2 and 3 percent (assuming a 15-25 percent cement replacement rate and an 8 to 1 ratio of aggregate and water to cementitious material). Since the average radium-226 content of fly ash exceeds that of cement by a few pCi/g, the use of fly ash as a cement replacement in habitable structures will, on the average, result in a slight increase in the gamma radiation exposure to people (less than a milliroentgen per year). However, in some instances, where fly ash with a lower than average radium content replaces a cement with a higher than average radium content, the result would be less gamma radiation exposure. The use of fly ash as a cement replacement will also affect the quantity of radon emitted by the building material. Although the rate at which radon is created is directly proportional to the radium content, other factors may inhibit radon emanation from a material. Because fly ash is produced at high temperatures, it has a glassy structure which keeps most of the radon from escaping. The fraction of radon which escapes from fly ash (emanation fraction) has been measured at no more than a few percent. In contrast, typical soil and soil like materials tend to have an emanation fraction in the neighborhood of 20 percent. Thus, although fly ash on the average, has a greater radium content than the cement it replaces, the use of fly ash as a partial cement replacement is likely to reduce the radon gas contribution of the final concrete product. During the proposal period for this guideline EPA has been investigating this issue more thoroughly. Tests recently conducted for EPA substantiate the conclusions above, i.e., that the radon emanation rate of fly ash in its raw state and as used in concrete is only a few percent compared to the absolute radium concentration. Thus, while fly ash use in cement would, on the average, result in a small increase in gamma radiation exposure, this small increase in gamma exposure is likely to be offset by a decreased radon exposure. In light of this, EPA believes that the use of typically-occurring fly ash in concrete does not constitute a significantly different radiation risk, than the risk from the cement it replaces, and neither of these is significantly different from the radiation risk posed by common soil. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 25 07:42:26 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA08366 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:42:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA20188; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:36:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:32:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA19910 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:32:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA19906 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:32:32 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ554920; Mon, 25 Jan 99 05:33:42 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA84746; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 05:33:13 -0700 Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 05:33:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Scott Shell Cc: GBlist , iaq@onelist.com Subject: GBlist: safety of handling flyash In-Reply-To: <199901250012_MC2-67D8-2144@compuserve.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Scott: Having known that radioactivity of flyash has been a concern since we used flyash many years ago, I thank you for your update on EPA's stand at this time. The next issue to clarify for all those who have never worked with (or even seen) flyash are the regulations that may control the handling of flyash. Until this is given a clear bill health (mainly for workers), we shall continue to avoid the use of flyash in concrete, even with its many attributes. Jorg Ostrowski _________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Scott Shell wrote: > > The following is an excerpt from the EPA's "Cement and Concrete Containing > Fly Ash; Guideline for Federal Procurement" as published in the Federal > Register / Vol. 48, No. 20 / Friday, January 28, 1983 / Rules and > Regulations: > > > (c) Radioactivity Issues. At the same time as original proposal of the > hazardous waste regulations (December 18, 1978), EPA issued an advance > notice of proposed rulemaking that it was considering establishing 5 > picocuries per gram [pCi/g] of radium-226 as a criterion for listing wastes > as hazardous. The notice also requested comment on other criteria which > might tend to affect the radiation hazard. Among these is the emanation > rate of radon from the waste. The agency has, at this date, taken no > further action on this proposed rulemaking to establish general criteria > for hazardous radioactivity levels in wastes. > > Where resource recovery is practiced, an important consideration in > assessing the hazard is the proposed use of the waste material. While some > proportion of fly ash generated in the U.S. has more than 5 pCi/g of > radium-226, the physical structure of fly ash is such that its contribution > to radiation exposure is probably less than that of most normal > constituents of concrete which generally fall below this level. This is > explained below. > > A few commenters expressed concern to EPA that fly ash used in the > construction of habitable structures could pose a threat to public health > due to radioactivity. The source of the radiation threat is due to > radium-226, a radioactive isotope which occurs naturally in soil, sand, and > mineral deposits as well as in fly ash. The radium-226 content of soil > generally ranges from .2 to 3 pCi/g. Limited measurements of radioactivity > in cement show that the redium-226 content of cement can be as high as 5 > pCi/g, but typically averages close to 1 pCi/g. Limited measurements of > fly ash presently generated in the U.S. show a radium-226 content ranging > from 1 to 8 pCi/g with an average of roughly 4 /Ci/g. > > There are two pathways of radiation exposure from radium-226 in building > materials. The pathway of primary concern is from inhalation of radon-222 > and its short-lived decay products. Radon-222, an inert gas with a > radioactive half-life of 3.8 days, is the first generation decay product of > radium-226. Because it is an inert gas, it can readily migrate from the > building material into the indoor air of a home. Although the rate at > which radon is created within a building material is proportional to its > radium content, the intrinsic structure of the material may, in some cases, > prevent most of the radon from escaping. When air containing radon and its > radioactive decay products is breathed for long periods of time, a person's > risk of lung cancer is increased. > > Gamma radiation from radium-226 and its decay products is the other > exposure pathway. The amount of gamma radiation emission from a building > material is proportional to its radium content, but the total exposure a > person receives will also depend on other factors such as shielding, > distance from the material, and exposure time. Exposure to gamma radiation > results in an increased risk of many types of cancer. > > When fly ash is used as a partial cement replacement in concrete, the fly > ash content of the final concrete product is between 2 and 3 percent > (assuming a 15-25 percent cement replacement rate and an 8 to 1 ratio of > aggregate and water to cementitious material). Since the average > radium-226 content of fly ash exceeds that of cement by a few pCi/g, the > use of fly ash as a cement replacement in habitable structures will, on the > average, result in a slight increase in the gamma radiation exposure to > people (less than a milliroentgen per year). However, in some instances, > where fly ash with a lower than average radium content replaces a cement > with a higher than average radium content, the result would be less gamma > radiation exposure. > > The use of fly ash as a cement replacement will also affect the quantity of > radon emitted by the building material. Although the rate at which radon > is created is directly proportional to the radium content, other factors > may inhibit radon emanation from a material. Because fly ash is produced > at high temperatures, it has a glassy structure which keeps most of the > radon from escaping. The fraction of radon which escapes from fly ash > (emanation fraction) has been measured at no more than a few percent. In > contrast, typical soil and soil like materials tend to have an emanation > fraction in the neighborhood of 20 percent. Thus, although fly ash on the > average, has a greater radium content than the cement it replaces, the use > of fly ash as a partial cement replacement is likely to reduce the radon > gas contribution of the final concrete product. > > During the proposal period for this guideline EPA has been investigating > this issue more thoroughly. Tests recently conducted for EPA substantiate > the conclusions above, i.e., that the radon emanation rate of fly ash in > its raw state and as used in concrete is only a few percent compared to the > absolute radium concentration. Thus, while fly ash use in cement would, on > the average, result in a small increase in gamma radiation exposure, this > small increase in gamma exposure is likely to be offset by a decreased > radon exposure. In light of this, EPA believes that the use of > typically-occurring fly ash in concrete does not constitute a significantly > different radiation risk, than the risk from the cement it replaces, and > neither of these is significantly different from the radiation risk posed > by common soil. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 25 09:57:47 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA10699 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:57:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26553; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:52:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:48:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26026 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:48:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from multi13.netcomi.com (dkdalton@multi13.netcomi.com [204.58.155.213]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26003 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dkdalton@localhost) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id IAA11759; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:48:55 -0600 Received: from onelist.com (www.onelist.com [209.207.164.157]) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id IAA11752 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:48:52 -0600 Received: (qmail 5328 invoked by uid 99); 25 Jan 1999 14:52:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 3019 invoked from network); 25 Jan 1999 12:32:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca) (136.159.244.11) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 25 Jan 1999 12:32:08 -0000 received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ554920; Mon, 25 Jan 99 05:33:42 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA84746; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 05:33:13 -0700 Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 05:33:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Old-To: Scott Shell Cc: GBlist , iaq@onelist.com In-Reply-To: <199901250012_MC2-67D8-2144@compuserve.com> Message-Id: Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact iaq-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: GBlist: [iaq] safety of handling flyash X-Loop: dkdalton@aztecenvironmental.com To: aztecfw@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Scott: Having known that radioactivity of flyash has been a concern since we used flyash many years ago, I thank you for your update on EPA's stand at this time. The next issue to clarify for all those who have never worked with (or even seen) flyash are the regulations that may control the handling of flyash. Until this is given a clear bill health (mainly for workers), we shall continue to avoid the use of flyash in concrete, even with its many attributes. Jorg Ostrowski _________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Scott Shell wrote: > > The following is an excerpt from the EPA's "Cement and Concrete Containing > Fly Ash; Guideline for Federal Procurement" as published in the Federal > Register / Vol. 48, No. 20 / Friday, January 28, 1983 / Rules and > Regulations: > > > (c) Radioactivity Issues. At the same time as original proposal of the > hazardous waste regulations (December 18, 1978), EPA issued an advance > notice of proposed rulemaking that it was considering establishing 5 > picocuries per gram [pCi/g] of radium-226 as a criterion for listing wastes > as hazardous. The notice also requested comment on other criteria which > might tend to affect the radiation hazard. Among these is the emanation > rate of radon from the waste. The agency has, at this date, taken no > further action on this proposed rulemaking to establish general criteria > for hazardous radioactivity levels in wastes. > > Where resource recovery is practiced, an important consideration in > assessing the hazard is the proposed use of the waste material. While some > proportion of fly ash generated in the U.S. has more than 5 pCi/g of > radium-226, the physical structure of fly ash is such that its contribution > to radiation exposure is probably less than that of most normal > constituents of concrete which generally fall below this level. This is > explained below. > > A few commenters expressed concern to EPA that fly ash used in the > construction of habitable structures could pose a threat to public health > due to radioactivity. The source of the radiation threat is due to > radium-226, a radioactive isotope which occurs naturally in soil, sand, and > mineral deposits as well as in fly ash. The radium-226 content of soil > generally ranges from .2 to 3 pCi/g. Limited measurements of radioactivity > in cement show that the redium-226 content of cement can be as high as 5 > pCi/g, but typically averages close to 1 pCi/g. Limited measurements of > fly ash presently generated in the U.S. show a radium-226 content ranging > from 1 to 8 pCi/g with an average of roughly 4 /Ci/g. > > There are two pathways of radiation exposure from radium-226 in building > materials. The pathway of primary concern is from inhalation of radon-222 > and its short-lived decay products. Radon-222, an inert gas with a > radioactive half-life of 3.8 days, is the first generation decay product of > radium-226. Because it is an inert gas, it can readily migrate from the > building material into the indoor air of a home. Although the rate at > which radon is created within a building material is proportional to its > radium content, the intrinsic structure of the material may, in some cases, > prevent most of the radon from escaping. When air containing radon and its > radioactive decay products is breathed for long periods of time, a person's > risk of lung cancer is increased. > > Gamma radiation from radium-226 and its decay products is the other > exposure pathway. The amount of gamma radiation emission from a building > material is proportional to its radium content, but the total exposure a > person receives will also depend on other factors such as shielding, > distance from the material, and exposure time. Exposure to gamma radiation > results in an increased risk of many types of cancer. > > When fly ash is used as a partial cement replacement in concrete, the fly > ash content of the final concrete product is between 2 and 3 percent > (assuming a 15-25 percent cement replacement rate and an 8 to 1 ratio of > aggregate and water to cementitious material). Since the average > radium-226 content of fly ash exceeds that of cement by a few pCi/g, the > use of fly ash as a cement replacement in habitable structures will, on the > average, result in a slight increase in the gamma radiation exposure to > people (less than a milliroentgen per year). However, in some instances, > where fly ash with a lower than average radium content replaces a cement > with a higher than average radium content, the result would be less gamma > radiation exposure. > > The use of fly ash as a cement replacement will also affect the quantity of > radon emitted by the building material. Although the rate at which radon > is created is directly proportional to the radium content, other factors > may inhibit radon emanation from a material. Because fly ash is produced > at high temperatures, it has a glassy structure which keeps most of the > radon from escaping. The fraction of radon which escapes from fly ash > (emanation fraction) has been measured at no more than a few percent. In > contrast, typical soil and soil like materials tend to have an emanation > fraction in the neighborhood of 20 percent. Thus, although fly ash on the > average, has a greater radium content than the cement it replaces, the use > of fly ash as a partial cement replacement is likely to reduce the radon > gas contribution of the final concrete product. > > During the proposal period for this guideline EPA has been investigating > this issue more thoroughly. Tests recently conducted for EPA substantiate > the conclusions above, i.e., that the radon emanation rate of fly ash in > its raw state and as used in concrete is only a few percent compared to the > absolute radium concentration. Thus, while fly ash use in cement would, on > the average, result in a small increase in gamma radiation exposure, this > small increase in gamma exposure is likely to be offset by a decreased > radon exposure. In light of this, EPA believes that the use of > typically-occurring fly ash in concrete does not constitute a significantly > different radiation risk, than the risk from the cement it replaces, and > neither of these is significantly different from the radiation risk posed > by common soil. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the week: "Indoor Air Service INC Training for the IAQ technician" http://www.airguide.com Two hours of professionally produced-broadcast quality video tapes clearly illustrate the actual examples of pollution source management, step-by-step response to occupant complaints, construction/renovation precautions, building commissioning, integrated pest management, air filtration improvement, and HVAC maintenance and cleaning. Customized computer graphics outline the importance of adequate ventilation, exhaust, and outside fresh air intake. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 25 09:57:47 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA10698 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:57:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26555; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:52:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:48:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25996 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:48:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from multi4.netcomi.com (rjbynum@multi4.netcomi.com [204.58.155.204]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25990 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:48:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from rjbynum@localhost) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id IAA30619; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:49:07 -0600 Received: from onelist.com (www.onelist.com [209.207.164.157]) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id IAA30613 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:49:05 -0600 Received: (qmail 5328 invoked by uid 99); 25 Jan 1999 14:52:47 -0000 Received: (qmail 3019 invoked from network); 25 Jan 1999 12:32:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca) (136.159.244.11) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 25 Jan 1999 12:32:08 -0000 received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ554920; Mon, 25 Jan 99 05:33:42 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA84746; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 05:33:13 -0700 Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 05:33:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Old-To: Scott Shell Cc: GBlist , iaq@onelist.com In-Reply-To: <199901250012_MC2-67D8-2144@compuserve.com> Message-Id: Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact iaq-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: GBlist: [iaq] safety of handling flyash X-Loop: rbynum@usenergycontrols.com To: rjbynum@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Scott: Having known that radioactivity of flyash has been a concern since we used flyash many years ago, I thank you for your update on EPA's stand at this time. The next issue to clarify for all those who have never worked with (or even seen) flyash are the regulations that may control the handling of flyash. Until this is given a clear bill health (mainly for workers), we shall continue to avoid the use of flyash in concrete, even with its many attributes. Jorg Ostrowski _________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Scott Shell wrote: > > The following is an excerpt from the EPA's "Cement and Concrete Containing > Fly Ash; Guideline for Federal Procurement" as published in the Federal > Register / Vol. 48, No. 20 / Friday, January 28, 1983 / Rules and > Regulations: > > > (c) Radioactivity Issues. At the same time as original proposal of the > hazardous waste regulations (December 18, 1978), EPA issued an advance > notice of proposed rulemaking that it was considering establishing 5 > picocuries per gram [pCi/g] of radium-226 as a criterion for listing wastes > as hazardous. The notice also requested comment on other criteria which > might tend to affect the radiation hazard. Among these is the emanation > rate of radon from the waste. The agency has, at this date, taken no > further action on this proposed rulemaking to establish general criteria > for hazardous radioactivity levels in wastes. > > Where resource recovery is practiced, an important consideration in > assessing the hazard is the proposed use of the waste material. While some > proportion of fly ash generated in the U.S. has more than 5 pCi/g of > radium-226, the physical structure of fly ash is such that its contribution > to radiation exposure is probably less than that of most normal > constituents of concrete which generally fall below this level. This is > explained below. > > A few commenters expressed concern to EPA that fly ash used in the > construction of habitable structures could pose a threat to public health > due to radioactivity. The source of the radiation threat is due to > radium-226, a radioactive isotope which occurs naturally in soil, sand, and > mineral deposits as well as in fly ash. The radium-226 content of soil > generally ranges from .2 to 3 pCi/g. Limited measurements of radioactivity > in cement show that the redium-226 content of cement can be as high as 5 > pCi/g, but typically averages close to 1 pCi/g. Limited measurements of > fly ash presently generated in the U.S. show a radium-226 content ranging > from 1 to 8 pCi/g with an average of roughly 4 /Ci/g. > > There are two pathways of radiation exposure from radium-226 in building > materials. The pathway of primary concern is from inhalation of radon-222 > and its short-lived decay products. Radon-222, an inert gas with a > radioactive half-life of 3.8 days, is the first generation decay product of > radium-226. Because it is an inert gas, it can readily migrate from the > building material into the indoor air of a home. Although the rate at > which radon is created within a building material is proportional to its > radium content, the intrinsic structure of the material may, in some cases, > prevent most of the radon from escaping. When air containing radon and its > radioactive decay products is breathed for long periods of time, a person's > risk of lung cancer is increased. > > Gamma radiation from radium-226 and its decay products is the other > exposure pathway. The amount of gamma radiation emission from a building > material is proportional to its radium content, but the total exposure a > person receives will also depend on other factors such as shielding, > distance from the material, and exposure time. Exposure to gamma radiation > results in an increased risk of many types of cancer. > > When fly ash is used as a partial cement replacement in concrete, the fly > ash content of the final concrete product is between 2 and 3 percent > (assuming a 15-25 percent cement replacement rate and an 8 to 1 ratio of > aggregate and water to cementitious material). Since the average > radium-226 content of fly ash exceeds that of cement by a few pCi/g, the > use of fly ash as a cement replacement in habitable structures will, on the > average, result in a slight increase in the gamma radiation exposure to > people (less than a milliroentgen per year). However, in some instances, > where fly ash with a lower than average radium content replaces a cement > with a higher than average radium content, the result would be less gamma > radiation exposure. > > The use of fly ash as a cement replacement will also affect the quantity of > radon emitted by the building material. Although the rate at which radon > is created is directly proportional to the radium content, other factors > may inhibit radon emanation from a material. Because fly ash is produced > at high temperatures, it has a glassy structure which keeps most of the > radon from escaping. The fraction of radon which escapes from fly ash > (emanation fraction) has been measured at no more than a few percent. In > contrast, typical soil and soil like materials tend to have an emanation > fraction in the neighborhood of 20 percent. Thus, although fly ash on the > average, has a greater radium content than the cement it replaces, the use > of fly ash as a partial cement replacement is likely to reduce the radon > gas contribution of the final concrete product. > > During the proposal period for this guideline EPA has been investigating > this issue more thoroughly. Tests recently conducted for EPA substantiate > the conclusions above, i.e., that the radon emanation rate of fly ash in > its raw state and as used in concrete is only a few percent compared to the > absolute radium concentration. Thus, while fly ash use in cement would, on > the average, result in a small increase in gamma radiation exposure, this > small increase in gamma exposure is likely to be offset by a decreased > radon exposure. In light of this, EPA believes that the use of > typically-occurring fly ash in concrete does not constitute a significantly > different radiation risk, than the risk from the cement it replaces, and > neither of these is significantly different from the radiation risk posed > by common soil. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the week: "Indoor Air Service INC Training for the IAQ technician" http://www.airguide.com Two hours of professionally produced-broadcast quality video tapes clearly illustrate the actual examples of pollution source management, step-by-step response to occupant complaints, construction/renovation precautions, building commissioning, integrated pest management, air filtration improvement, and HVAC maintenance and cleaning. Customized computer graphics outline the importance of adequate ventilation, exhaust, and outside fresh air intake. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 25 13:09:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA17871 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:09:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09884; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:04:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:59:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09394 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:59:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09390 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:59:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.149] (iplink150.crocker.com [205.246.4.150]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.9.2/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA26301 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:14:10 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: brucecol@crocker.com (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:06:33 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Pesticide residues in farmlands and human health impacts Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk We are considering a parcel of land adjacent to a highway in Hadley MA for a private high school. It has been farmed (raising corn) for a long time. Does anuone have any SPECIFIC knowledge of adverse human health effects from herbicide or pesticide in the soil from buildings and recreation fields so situated. NOTE: 1. pesticide application is not likely to have been applied at the level that sometimes occured around buildings to kill termites etc. 2. I am not talking about air-bourne pesticide drifting across from adjacent fields Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 25 13:44:17 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18614 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:44:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11967; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:38:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:34:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA11551 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:34:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11543 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:34:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-25.netmeg.net [208.139.83.88]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA17886; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:35:57 -0500 Message-ID: <36ACB9AD.76CD2EA5@swinter.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:36:29 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Coldham CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Pesticide residues in farmlands and human health impacts References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I know there is a Brownfields web site and you should try to investigate how other towns have dealt w/ remediation for Brownfield developments. Let me know if you need assistance with your search. Here is a developer that may be able to answer a question: Brownfields Development Co., Inc. (BRODEVCO-DOM) 1262 White Oak Rd. Westfield, NJ 07090-4644 www.BRODEVCO.COM Sincerely, Debra Lombard, Engineer Steven Winter Associates www.swinter.com deblombard@swinter.com Bruce Coldham wrote: > We are considering a parcel of land adjacent to a highway in Hadley MA for > a private high school. It has been farmed (raising corn) for a long time. > Does anuone have any SPECIFIC knowledge of adverse human health effects > from herbicide or pesticide in the soil from buildings and recreation > fields so situated. > NOTE: > 1. pesticide application is not likely to have been applied at the level > that sometimes occured around buildings to kill termites etc. > 2. I am not talking about air-bourne pesticide drifting across from > adjacent fields > > Bruce Coldham > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 25 19:41:47 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA27469 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:41:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA07354; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:36:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:31:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05970 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:30:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05966 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:30:57 -0500 (EST) From: Bagelhole1@aol.com Received: from Bagelhole1@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 5RTYa07784 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:30:18 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:30:18 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #465 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear list people, I hope your minds are flexible as well as your bodies, because here is another off-the -wall idea: I gotta tell you an idea I got from Arturo Cato, who lives downstairs. I am inviting anyone who likes,to join in a collaborative effort, over the net, to build a bus where 50 or so people can sit and pedal, with a driver steering and changing gears. The pedalling would also charge some batteries so that the bus could run on electric if there are not enough people. My contribution was to have a sail on top, or turbine, or whatever. This bus would be for free, but people could contribute in a donation bucket for the driver and maintence. Of course, ours is going to have some great music (african, arabic, etc), to inspire the people pedaling. Our first choice for materials for the floor and/or more is bamboo. Creativity is open. But we could share ideas as to best materials, cheapest, lightest, strongest, etc. so we all don't reinvent the bus. This is not a competition, its a co-operation, or collaboration. Furthermore these busses would be used to popularize the idea of low-tech, homemade style self-sustainable ideas to be sent to my new website (still not completed entirely), www.bagelhole.hypermart.net to make an ever-improving list to be accessible for any and everyone. Co-reliantly with love, bagelhole1 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 25 20:11:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA27846 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA14630; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:06:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:01:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12992 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:01:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12975 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:01:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on5-37.netcom.ca [207.181.91.101]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA25759; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:01:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990125193442.00af2760@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:58:59 -0400 To: "Steve McCarthy" From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 11:55 AM 25/01/99 -0500, Steve McCarthy wrote: (snip)Recently someone commented to me that their wood >fired masonry heater had an efficiency of 94%. > >I use a combustion analyzer all the time on oil and gas combustion equipment >to measure steady state efficiency. Efficiencies above 88-90% SSE usually >mean condensation is occuring and I would think that condensation would >damage a masonry chimney. > >Do masonry heaters really have SSE or AFUE ratings of 94% or is this more >like a combustion efficiency? Do you have any idea at what efficiency >masonry heaters convert and deliver heat from wood? Steve: The 94% figure still gets tossed around, because it sound good - people really want to believe in miracles, I guess. From testing we've done, combustion efficiency is around 98% - that is simply a measure of the chemical conversion, ie., 2% comes out the chimney as CO and soot. What is important is heat transfer efficiency, which is a measure of how much of this heat makes it into the room. Without a condensing flue, as you suggest, with wood at 20% moisture there is an unavoidable latent heat loss (boiling of water loss) of about 13%. There is an additional loss because of excess air - in order to burn the wood completely, you need to supply more air than the theoretical amount needed to complete the chemical reaction (known as "stochiometric air"). This excess air has to get heated to chimney temp. A lot of people assume that the trick is to get a low stack temp - actually, excess air has a much larger effect on efficiency than stack temp. does. Overall efficiecy = combustion efficiency X heat transfer efficiency So, the maximum theoretical efficiency that you can get for any woodstove is around 80%. On a really good day, we can get 75%. A more realistic figure for average conditions is around 65 - 70%. To add confusion to this, the Europeans don't count the latent heat loss from boiling the water, so with their system it is possible to theoretically get an efficiency higher than 100% -- an unsatisfying concept in my opinion, similar to the C.O.P. on heat pumps that almost sounds like a free lunch ;-) When you see a European stove efficiency number, simply subtract 13% and you'll be close. Best............Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 25 20:55:06 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA28330 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:55:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA27286; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:49:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:45:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA26054 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:45:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA26038 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:45:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from reg-53-0165.direct.ca ([216.66.142.65] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 104xZ1-00010V-00; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:45:12 -0800 Message-ID: <36AD1BAD.107245F@direct.ca> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:34:37 -0800 From: Richard Kadulski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-SYMPA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca CC: "jfstraube@golden.net" , "terrain@cow-net.com" , greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: no roof ventilation References: <01BE4305.7DE66060.jfstraube@golden.net> <36A41742.28521985@atlasinc.on.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Neil Spiegel wrote: > I want to ask for a small bit of clarification on this roof ventalation thing. (I was > planning on putting in a couple vents on an old, recently re-insulated (blown cellulose in > the attic) Victiorian home.) > > Does this sound right: > > 1) If your doing new construction (good building envelope) then you might not need roof > vents. > > 2) If your insulating an old attic in an old building and, even if you try and do a good > job, you probably should put in roof vents. > - I particularily thought this would be true in climates where melting snow can easily > freeze up on eaves or eavestroughs and do the ice dam thing. In other words the main > reason for the vents not being 'moisture control' but melting control so that the snow > doesn't melt until the temperature is warm enough for it to melt into flowing > eavestroughs. (I was particularily thinking that low cold intake vents at the soffits and > a big high output at the top of the roof to get rid of the warm air.) > > Disabuse me if necessary. > Just back from a trip, hence the slightly delayed reply.I think John Straube summarized it quite well. The essence is that ventilation of attics is not the cure-all for attic moisture problems. Yes, you want a cold roof, so that means that attic insulation must be continuous to the outer extremity of the roof structure. This is a challenge for builders, unless the structure has been properly designed with a high heel truss configuration. A major reason for melting and ice damming at the eaves is that there is less insulation, and consequently higher heat loss at the exterior walls, so melting and subsequent freezing can take place. The distribution is vents (high and low) I would suggest is not going to be that significant in the the winter, as the temperature difference (and thus stack effect) will be modest in winter, especially when there is snow on the roof (which acts as an insulator). The amount and significance of venting has to be considered in the context of local climate conditions and construction practices. -- Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver, BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax 604-689-11841 Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design Editor Solplan Review: the independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 25 21:08:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA28569 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:08:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA28244; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:03:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:59:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA27672 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:59:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA27655 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-14-171.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.130.171]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA11281; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:59:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:04:49 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE48A6.581206E0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'John Salmen'" , Richard Kadulski Cc: greenbuilding Subject: RE: GBlist: no roof ventilation Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:11:51 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, January 20, 1999 4:17 PM, John Salmen [SMTP:terrain@cow-net.com] wrote: > I was assuming that attic moisture was primarily related to moisture in the > residence (I've seen lots of evidence of this in houses with good attic > ventilation but would have thought vapour tightness of ceiling would have > been an important element of control (along with house ventilation) as your > conclusion indicates but it seems the results are somewhat contradictory. I agree John. My copy of the CMHC report"Attic Ventilation and Moisture Control Strategies" includes in the conclusions the sentence regarding sealed attics: "indoor-(to) attic air flow convected large amounts of moisture from the interior of the house to the attic. This results in high wood moisture contents and condensation problems in all climate zones". When the attic was ventilated, the indoor air is less important and the humidity of the outdoor becomes more important -- exess ventilation resulted in night time condensation and net wetting. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 25 23:39:07 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA01215 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:39:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA04580; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:33:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:29:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA03719 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:29:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA03677 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:28:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-26-22.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.133.22]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA10470; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:29:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:34:45 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE48BB.4A40D680.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'David F. Lambertson'" , Norbert Senf , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:24:58 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Sunday, January 24, 1999 11:18 AM, David F. Lambertson [SMTP:dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu] wrote: > May not have effect on efficiency but for the sake of indoor air quality I > sure don't want to use inside air for the combustion. We recently purchased > a new small stove with a knock-out in the bottom just so we could run a duct > from the outside to provide the necessary air. Know a stove isn't a > fireplace but the principle ought to be the same, isn't this so? Sacie A stove or fireplace that uses indoor air will not have a direct effect on the indoor air quality -- it acts just like a bathroom fan, exhausting a certain amount of interior air. This has the benefit of forcing outdoor air in the house (fresh air supply) and depressurizing the house, thereby ensuring the humid air is not forced out during cold weather (which could result in condensation) ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 04:58:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA04054 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 04:58:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA14150; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 04:53:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 04:49:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA13869 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 04:48:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA13865 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 04:48:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-10-171.cyberzone.net [209.150.10.171]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 04:30:50 -0500 Message-ID: <36ADBAE4.5632@cyberzone.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 04:53:57 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Harazim Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Thanks to one and all for your commentary on this topic. I've been in the middle of move #2 this weekend and haven't been able respond or even to digest anything but cardboard dust! Over the next week I hope to start thinking again and respond to specifics. Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 06:36:06 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA04910 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:36:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA16665; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:30:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:26:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA16357 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:26:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA16353 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:26:41 -0500 (EST) From: Bagelhole1@aol.com Received: from Bagelhole1@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id UMHAa03211 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:27:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:27:03 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: All ABOARD THE PEDALBUS -WORLDWIDE COLLABORATION Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0.i for Mac sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Subj: All ABOARD THE PEDALBUS -WORLDWIDE COLLABORATION Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 10:26:49 AM Bagelhole1 (http://bagelhole.hypermart.net/), under construction, calls for collaborators, globally, to share ideas as to the best ways (design, mediums,etc) we can think of to build a bus for about 50 people, that is a hybrid, run both by pedal power and electrical (generated by the pedal power and the turbine on top), equipped with sail. There would be a driver who steers, changes gears, and brakes. Music, perhaps, to inspire the pedal/passengers, maybe made from bamboo partially. All passengers ride/pedal for free, of course. Electric kicks in, when there are not enough pedal/riders. Every city could have such a bus to bring attention to people to aid in soliciting low-tech, homemade style ideas for self-sustainability, thinking in terms of small neighborhoods, in mutual co-operation with each other, as a way to really kick off community contingency preparation, globally. This needs to be done very quickly. So please heed, if you hear the call, this post and come up with some good ideas to submit and/or post this as appropriately as you can, to widen the scope, please. Finally, this could be viewed,in addition to the above, as our first real exorcise in global collaboration, maybe. from the heart of the bagelhole bagelhole1 415-824-421 bagelhole1@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 08:50:55 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA06475 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:50:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21023; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:45:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:41:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20745 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:41:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20741 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:41:12 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ131410; Tue, 26 Jan 99 06:41:29 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA41178; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:40:43 -0700 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:40:43 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: LARRY SULLIVAN Cc: iaq@onelist.com, Scott Shell , GBlist Subject: GBlist: Re: [iaq] Re: safety of handling flyash In-Reply-To: <36ACA5B6.220@bc.sympatico.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Larry:Due to the extreme lightness of flyash and due to the reality of contruction site or potential indoor work, the potential of entering the respiratory system is very high, as anyone with experience in the real world would know. This is a serious concern for workers. That is why anyone who has worked with flyash will know that no-one at the power plant wants to handle the material or give any of it to you. Theoretical comments on this topic have also failed to realize this concern. Further to your comments of below, EPA has a long way to go on getting the complete picture. Jorg Ostrowski _________________________________________________________________________ From: LARRY SULLIVAN Hi Jorg: Do you think you may be trying to be a little to "politicaly correct". The EPA report as I have highlighted below makes a point that radon emissions are not of much concern in concrete mixtures. The jest of there report is to establish a standard for acceptable standards of radon content in flyash. What is interesting is no mention is made of accepted standards for radon content in the other ingrediants,that being portland cement, and the aggregate which to me would be of more concern. Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 09:36:21 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07329 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:36:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23267; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:30:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:26:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22713 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:26:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22703 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:26:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from apple.babb.com by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id DS079MZA; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:28:53 -0500 Received: by apple.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BE490D.4CFE76A0@apple.babb.com>; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:21:48 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE490D.4CFE76A0@apple.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'GBLIST'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: [iaq] Re: safety of handling flyash Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:21:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA22708 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Thanks for the continuing information on flyash. I would like to add here that we have been using flyash for nearly a year, and that the power plant very very gladly sells us the flyash without a problem. (In fact, we have been in contact with many power plants wanting to sell their ash to us.) If you wear appropriate respiratory protection, flyash will not harm your lungs. Anyone who works with sand or even wood (due to the sawdust) should know how to protect their lungs when working with dusty materials... By the way, we buy dry flyash for the AAC plant here in Ringgold, GA. It is blown through a tube into the silo, resulting in little dust... The larger plant will use conditioned flyash. After it is wetted, flyash is not a respiratory hazard. Cement is dusty. Lime is dusty... There are many materials used in construction that cause a bit of dust, as I have learned. We must always take appropriate precautions to avoid silicosis and other respiratory problems when working with these materials. The people who live in the houses built with these materials do not have the same worries. Jillanna Babb-Cheshul -----Original Message----- From: Jorg D. Ostrowski [SMTP:jdo@ucalgary.ca] Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 8:41 AM To: LARRY SULLIVAN Cc: iaq@onelist.com; Scott Shell; GBlist Subject: GBlist: Re: [iaq] Re: safety of handling flyash Larry:Due to the extreme lightness of flyash and due to the reality of contruction site or potential indoor work, the potential of entering the respiratory system is very high, as anyone with experience in the real world would know. This is a serious concern for workers. That is why anyone who has worked with flyash will know that no-one at the power plant wants to handle the material or give any of it to you. Theoretical comments on this topic have also failed to realize this concern. Further to your comments of below, EPA has a long way to go on getting the complete picture. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 09:38:08 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA07365 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:38:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23444; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:32:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:28:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22891 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:28:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22882 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:28:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id IAA0000027052; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:29:41 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990126143243.006f9088@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:32:43 -0600 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: RE: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk >A stove or fireplace that uses indoor air will not have a direct effect on >the indoor air quality -- it acts just like a bathroom fan, exhausting a >certain amount of interior air. This has the benefit of forcing outdoor >air in the house (fresh air supply) and depressurizing the house, thereby >ensuring the humid air is not forced out during cold weather (which could >result in condensation) Yes, maybe not directly, but indirectly. We haven't yet knocked out that stove hole because we haven't yet 'balanced' it with a new wall hole to bring in fresh air. In the meantime, without a known supply of fresh air (assuming we have the rest of the place tight) aren't we creating a situation like that on an airplane where we are using stale ole air, albeit also (unlike the plane's) humid air? Along with this discussion I would appreciate an explanation of why a slightly negative indoor pressure is preferred----is it desired to help expel the humid air? Wouldn't a proper exhaust system do this? And if a negative pressure is wanted, how is this accomplished with a working exhaust fan? Is there some way we can actually test this pressure to determine what we have? Other than using instruments most of us don't have? Finally, when I was futzing with the specs for an exhaust fan I came to the conclusion that the exact numbers aren't THAT important to the average user such as myself. Is the idea of indoor pressure and exactly what that is, in the same category?. I think most of us, simply want to make buildings that are of excellent quality while at the same time taking into account the variables that make this so. We want to get it generally right, not to overlook the obvious and at the same time we want to have some reasonable understanding of why we are doing what we are. If we should have a fresh air intake then we make one, if the place should be air tight then we need a good explantion for that one too. I know there are lots of variables one needs to consider. Some think HRVs are crazy and a waste of money, others don't, some say yes to attic ventilation, other's say no. Wasn't there a song that took all this in? At the least, this is surely interesting. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 10:07:05 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08075 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:07:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25511; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:01:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:57:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24935 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:57:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24931 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:57:27 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ114004; Tue, 26 Jan 99 07:58:31 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA120658; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:57:37 -0700 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:57:36 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Jillanna Babb Cc: "'GBLIST'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: [iaq] Re: safety of handling flyash In-Reply-To: <01BE490D.4CFE76A0@apple.babb.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Jillanna: Power plants want to rid themselves of their oversupply of left-over material and the suppliers want to sell more. But the workers in the plants are the most conscious of how easy flyash can be airborn and taken into their lungs without proper protection. Protective gear is critical but unfortunately not always available or convenient. How many fiberglass insulation installers wear masks? Jorg Ostrowski ________________________________________________________________________ On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Jillanna Babb wrote: > > Thanks for the continuing information on flyash. I would like to add here that we have been using flyash for nearly a year, and that the power plant very very gladly sells us the flyash without a problem. (In fact, we have been in contact with many power plants wanting to sell their ash to us.) If you wear appropriate respiratory protection, flyash will not harm your lungs. Anyone who works with sand or even wood (due to the sawdust) should know how to protect their lungs when working with dusty materials... > By the way, we buy dry flyash for the AAC plant here in Ringgold, GA. It is blown through a tube into the silo, resulting in little dust... The larger plant will use conditioned flyash. After it is wetted, flyash is not a respiratory hazard. > Cement is dusty. Lime is dusty... There are many materials used in construction that cause a bit of dust, as I have learned. We must always take appropriate precautions to avoid silicosis and other respiratory problems when working with these materials. The people who live in the houses built with these materials do not have the same worries. > Jillanna Babb-Cheshul > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jorg D. Ostrowski [SMTP:jdo@ucalgary.ca] > Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 8:41 AM > To: LARRY SULLIVAN > Cc: iaq@onelist.com; Scott Shell; GBlist > Subject: GBlist: Re: [iaq] Re: safety of handling flyash > > > Larry:Due to the extreme lightness of flyash and due to the reality of > contruction site or potential indoor work, the potential of entering the > respiratory system is very high, as anyone with experience in the real world > would know. This is a serious concern for workers. That is why anyone who > has worked with flyash will know that no-one at the power plant wants to > handle the material or give any of it to you. Theoretical comments on > this topic have also failed to realize this concern. Further to your > comments of below, EPA has a long way to go on getting the complete > picture. Jorg Ostrowski > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 10:22:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08459 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:22:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26739; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:12:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26360 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:12:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26346 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:12:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-38.netmeg.net [208.139.83.101]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA12481; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:13:55 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36ADDBD2.F4E33FB@swinter.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:14:26 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bagelhole1@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: All ABOARD THE PEDALBUS -WORLDWIDE COLLABORATION References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk how you calculated the output of a single person. we estimated that one person outputs 200 Watts or 1/4 hp, so we figure you may need over 900 people. highly unrealistic. debra lombard Bagelhole1@aol.com wrote: > Subj: All ABOARD THE PEDALBUS -WORLDWIDE COLLABORATION > Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 10:26:49 AM > > Bagelhole1 (http://bagelhole.hypermart.net/), under construction, calls for > collaborators, globally, to share ideas as to the best ways (design, > mediums,etc) we can think of to build a bus for about 50 people, that is a > hybrid, run both by pedal power and electrical (generated by the pedal power > and the turbine on top), equipped with sail. There would be a driver who > steers, changes gears, and brakes. Music, perhaps, to inspire the > pedal/passengers, maybe made from bamboo partially. All passengers ride/pedal > for free, of course. Electric kicks in, when there are not enough > pedal/riders. > > Every city could have such a bus to bring attention to people to aid in > soliciting low-tech, homemade style ideas for self-sustainability, thinking in > terms of small neighborhoods, in mutual co-operation with each other, as a way > to really kick off community contingency preparation, globally. This needs to > be done very quickly. So please heed, if you hear the call, this post and come > up with some good ideas to submit and/or post this as appropriately as you > can, to widen the scope, please. > > Finally, this could be viewed,in addition to the above, as our first real > exorcise in global collaboration, maybe. > from the heart of the bagelhole > bagelhole1 > 415-824-421 > bagelhole1@aol.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 10:27:30 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08628 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:27:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27310; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:22:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:18:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26834 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:17:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26830 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:17:57 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ025220; Tue, 26 Jan 99 08:18:34 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA106514; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:17:50 -0700 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:17:50 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: John Straube Cc: "'David F. Lambertson'" , Norbert Senf , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air In-Reply-To: <01BE48BB.4A40D680.jfstraube@golden.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk You said: A stove or fireplace that uses indoor air will not have a direct effect on the indoor air quality -- it acts just like a bathroom fan, exhausting a certain amount of interior air. This has the benefit of forcing outdoor air in the house (fresh air supply) and depressurizing the house, thereby ensuring the humid air is not forced out during cold weather (which could result in condensation) ________________________________________________________________________ Sorry to contradict your musings above. A fireplace certainly can affect indoor air quality (CO, PM-10, etc.), if normal people operate that applicance. In fact, it can be a serious liability to IAQ, especially if the house is depressurized! Have you ever heard of "spillage", cold chimnies, opening windows to get things started, fires going out when the motorized damper is closed, HRV dampers changing position from slightly positive to negative settings, etc? These do happen in the world of reality. We live with masonry heater that we enjoy, and have been involved with at least 10 others on some of our projects, not to mention many wood burning stoves and appliances over the years. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 11:13:41 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10866 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01079; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:08:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:04:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00691 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:03:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00687 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:03:45 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id AMNBa07792 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:01:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7ac84a9a.36ade6dc@aol.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:01:32 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: no roof ventilation Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:34:37 -0800 Richard Kadulski wrote: >A major reason for melting and ice damming >at the eaves is that there is less insulation, and consequently higher heat loss at the exterior >walls, so melting and subsequent freezing can take place. My (totally non scientific) observations on roofs with a large snow load at temperatures approaching melting lead me to believe that the amount of _insulation_ and not ventilation is the key factor in preventing of ice damming. I guess to be more to the point the lack of heat entering the attic space (wether by infiltration from the warmed space or conduction through the building materails) is the determing factor. I have seen houses with a great deal of attention paid to ventilation hung with huge icicles and modulars with little or no ventilation but great insulation hold their snow for days beyond other houses in the neighborhood. My baseline reference is usually nearby garages and barns since they have no heat unless it is incidental soar (of which we get so precious little here in Ithaca). Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Inc. Contractors, Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 12:16:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA12632 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:16:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA05008; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:10:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:06:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04328 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:06:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04323 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:06:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 19890 invoked by alias); 26 Jan 1999 17:02:32 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 18369 invoked by uid 0); 26 Jan 1999 17:01:35 -0000 Received: from jdialup246.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.180.240.246) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 26 Jan 1999 17:01:35 -0000 Message-ID: <007301be494d$47abbf60$f6f0b4d1@h5n5y7> From: "PETER F. ALSPACH" To: , Subject: Re: GBlist: All ABOARD THE PEDALBUS -WORLDWIDE COLLABORATION Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:59:46 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk How's this: ride a bike! with electric boost (i.e. a Zap conversion http://www.zapbikes.com/) all feasible NOW and available at your local bike shop. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 13:31:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15120 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:31:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10002; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:26:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:21:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA09537 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:21:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (wfntnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.37.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09527 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:21:43 -0500 (EST) From: swiftjr@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 85256705.0064ED14 ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:22:22 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: Bagelhole1@aol.com cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <85256705.006377F0.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:22:18 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: All ABOARD THE PEDALBUS -WORLDWIDE COLLABORATION Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk While I think that this is a great idea, there already is such a thing (a pedal bus that carries 50 people). It's the local bike shop with 50 bikes on display -- one bike for each person. I see a few problems with your idea. (who is this Artuoro guy living downstairs - what does he do for a living? Just wondering) Just how tall were these sails going to be (you might want to some calculations) How about the weight of your batteries? bamboo? I'll take my chrome-molly frame. And if (when) it breaks, who is going to fix it? Low tech? Who are you kidding. Do you realize what is involved? Practical? It might make for a good college competition, but personally, I prefer spaghetti bridges and concrete canoes. What if you don't like Arabic music? Just some thoughts. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 14:37:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18081 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:37:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15557; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:31:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:27:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14790 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:27:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14778 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:26:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-21-25.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.25]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA28897; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:28:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:33:00 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE4938.C66D4A40.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Jorg D. Ostrowski'" , LARRY SULLIVAN Cc: "iaq@onelist.com" , Scott Shell , GBlist Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: [iaq] Re: safety of handling flyash Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:52:40 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, January 26, 1999 8:41 AM, Jorg D. Ostrowski [SMTP:jdo@ucalgary.ca] wrote: > Larry:Due to the extreme lightness of flyash and due to the reality of > contruction site or potential indoor work, the potential of entering the > respiratory system is very high, as anyone with experience in the real world Breathing the fine particles of flyash is indeed dangerous, the only real health concern that is based on fact not superstition. As one those exceedingly rare folks who often dares to venture into the real world, I would point out that the particle size distribution of clay and cement also contain a large portion of small light particles that can damage your resperatory tract -- take the appropriate precautions in handling all of these!!!! BTW, I have also heard, unsubstantiated, that the small wood particles that are released during wood cutting with sharp high speed saws are at least as danagerous since they are in the same size range (although they may be dissolved in the lung) ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 15:25:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA20745 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:25:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA19411; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:20:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:16:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18940 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:16:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18933 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:16:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.118] (newhenyusr0-a118.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.118]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA07646; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:17:22 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:17:22 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: GBlist: pedal power Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Bagelhole1, As with many great ideas, your pedal-powered bus idea has already been (partly) implemented. I've read and seen pictures of an amazing 5 "passenger" pedal powered vehicle where everyone sits in a circle facing in, except the driver. This allows much more socialability. I seem to remember that it was available for hire and that it was a real hit amoung small groups wanting to "get together" and go somewhere in style at the same time. This and similar projects can be learned about in Bike Culture magazine and in their annual Encycleopedia's. Check out their web site for more info: http://bikeculture.com/bc/index.html I bet some people on this list are interested in this stuff, but is it really on-topic? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:30:18 EST From: Bagelhole1@aol.com Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #465 Dear list people, I hope your minds are flexible as well as your bodies, because here is another off-the -wall idea: I gotta tell you an idea I got from Arturo Cato, who lives downstairs. I am inviting anyone who likes,to join in a collaborative effort, over the net, to build a bus where 50 or so people can sit and pedal, with a driver steering and changing gears.... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 20:14:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA01756 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:14:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04282; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:08:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:03:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA03811 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:03:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA03804 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:03:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com [world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]] by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA28747; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA16789; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:04:23 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:04:23 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: "PETER F. ALSPACH" Cc: Bagelhole1@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: All ABOARD THE PEDALBUS -WORLDWIDE COLLABORATION In-Reply-To: <007301be494d$47abbf60$f6f0b4d1@h5n5y7> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk goto: or Electric Vehicle List , power-assist@cyclery.com On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, PETER F. ALSPACH wrote: > How's this: ride a bike! with electric boost (i.e. a Zap conversion > http://www.zapbikes.com/) all feasible NOW and available at your local bike > shop. Send press releases, announcements, and notices of interest to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 To receive the next edition of the Environmental Review, send, subscribe er-list, to ; for Solar Utilities info, send, subscribe solar_utilities ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 21:11:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA02875 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:11:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08254; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:05:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:01:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07373 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:01:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07364 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:00:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.235] (ka4-235.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.235]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.9.1+DND/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA05216; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:02:13 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BE48A6.581206E0.jfstraube@golden.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:29:45 -0500 To: "jfstraube@golden.net" , Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: RE: GBlist: no roof ventilation Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id VAA07365 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Sgrìobh John Straube: > When the attic was ventilated, the indoor air is less important and the > humidity of the outdoor becomes more important -- exess ventilation > resulted in night time condensation and net wetting. Is this as much of a problem with living roofs? My roof has a limited amount of air circulation over the rock wool, and plywood over that, bituthene over that, and a layer of bales/plants over that. Considering the moist bales will greatly reduce the night-time temperature swing, would it be safe to say that there will be little condensation on the underside of the plywood? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 21:30:00 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA03506 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:30:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12728; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:24:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA10721 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA10686 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-24-185.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.185]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA05169; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:24:43 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE4972.4A3F14A0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Caaradrbl@aol.com'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: no roof ventilation Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:11:20 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, January 26, 1999 11:02 AM, Caaradrbl@aol.com [SMTP:Caaradrbl@aol.com] wrote: > My (totally non scientific) observations on roofs with a large snow load at > temperatures approaching melting lead me to believe that the amount of > _insulation_ and not ventilation is the key factor in preventing of ice > damming. Rick, you are correct, but this does not change the amount of ventilation needed. If a house has a large amount of insulation right up to the outside line of the walls (often not the case), ventilation is not that important, BUT will still help significantly reduce ice damming if snow accumulates. As usual, ventilation wont solve the problem is you do other things wrong ( like not enough roof insulation) but then by the same token lots of insulation likely wont help if you dont ventilate. How important each factor is depends on the climate. If you have 12" of snow on the roof, it has an Rvalue of about 8. If the temp outside is -10C, inside is 21, the attic is insulated to R16, the temp at the uninsulated roof surface would be just above zero = melting and icedamming. If the R-value of the roof was 32 and 2 feet of snow, the result would be the same. Ventilation would help bypass the thermal resistance of the snow and reduce the potential for problems. Once you get to R40 to 50 it takes warm temps (which dont allow refreezing) or huge amounts of snow (3 feet or more) to have a problem, and so ventilation becomes less critical. Does that gibberish make sense? ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 21:30:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA03511 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:30:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12832; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:24:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:20:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA10777 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA10606 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:18:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-24-185.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.185]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA05085; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:19:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:24:34 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE4972.44C652E0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Jorg D. Ostrowski'" Cc: "'David F. Lambertson'" , Norbert Senf , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:38:45 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Tuesday, January 26, 1999 10:18 AM, Jorg D. Ostrowski [SMTP:jdo@ucalgary.ca] wrote: > Sorry to contradict your musings above. A fireplace certainly can > affect indoor air quality (CO, PM-10, etc.), if normal people operat Of course, this is true, but the question was "does using indoor air as combustion air cause IAQ problems". The answer to the above question, the question to which I replied, is no, for all the very detailed, technical, and documented reasons Nobert Senf gave (who may be the only person on the planet who knows more about masonry stoves, or at least those in the real world, than yourself) ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 23:39:06 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA05875 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:39:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA18739; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:33:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:29:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17290 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:29:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17281 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:29:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.60] (rkd036.acadia.net [208.244.128.60]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA10377 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:30:27 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:29:08 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Pesticide residues in farmlands and human health impacts Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Bruce Coldham wrote: >We are considering a parcel of land adjacent to a highway in Hadley MA for >a private high school. It has been farmed (raising corn) for a long time. >Does anuone have any SPECIFIC knowledge of adverse human health effects >from herbicide or pesticide in the soil from buildings and recreation >fields so situated... Dear Bruce, U.S. corn silage fields are usually sprayed with Atrazine, an herbicide. Atrazine is an organochlorine, and has been implicated as an endocrine disruptor by reputable scientists - see "Our Stolen Future" by Theo Colburn, Dianne Dumanoski and John Peterson Myers. I'm sure that you can find information on Atrazine through the WWW or other sources. The Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association will not certify land as organic until at least 3 years after the last spraying of Atrazine. You could contact Eric Sideman at MOFGA for more information; MOFGA's telephone number is (207) 622-3118. Best of luck, David ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 26 23:39:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA05880 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:39:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA18757; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:33:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:29:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17324 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:29:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17309 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:29:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.60] (rkd036.acadia.net [208.244.128.60]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA10389 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:30:31 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:29:12 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: no roof ventilation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Rick wrote: >My (totally non scientific) observations on roofs with a large snow load at >temperatures approaching melting lead me to believe that the amount of >_insulation_ and not ventilation is the key factor in preventing of ice >damming. I guess to be more to the point the lack of heat entering the attic >space (wether by infiltration from the warmed space or conduction through the >building materails) is the determing factor. I have seen houses with a great >deal of attention paid to ventilation hung with huge icicles and modulars with >little or no ventilation but great insulation hold their snow for days beyond >other houses in the neighborhood. My baseline reference is usually nearby >garages and barns since they have no heat unless it is incidental soar (of >which we get so precious little here in Ithaca)... You can get excellent information on the best ways to prevent ice dams by contacting Paul Fisette at the Building Science Department of the Universtiy of Massachusetts at Amherst, or look for Paul's excellent articles on the 'Web - sorry, don't have the URL handy just now, but the articles aren't hard to find. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 27 09:52:17 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12314 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:52:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07013; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:46:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:42:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06666 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:42:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06660 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:42:03 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ104727; Wed, 27 Jan 99 07:43:09 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA120224; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:43:02 -0700 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:43:02 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: John Straube Cc: "'David F. Lambertson'" , Norbert Senf , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air In-Reply-To: <01BE4972.44C652E0.jfstraube@golden.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk John: I believe that Norbert is the most knowledable expert on masonry stoves in North America. However, I also know that it is easy to get indoor air pollution from a woodstove into a house from the OUTSIDE (ie. through an HRV inlet, even if that location is far away) depending on the direction of the wind, and the speed setting of the HRV. Another thing that has not been discussed is the possibility of getting pollution out one chimney and down a second adjacent one (if not in use and even if it has a "Lock Top" closure). In addition, when my combustion air duct (which I would prefer NOT to use at -37dC) is closed (ie. motorized damper), the fire goes out! We CAN NOT HAVE A FIRE WITH THE COMBUSTION AIR DUCT CLOSED, unless you want a house full of smoke! Even with these real-world realities of the last 5 years, we still enjoy and use our masonry heater a to the fullest. Our wood is free and our GreenHouse Gas emissions are approximate 25% of our natural-gas-fired neighbours in their plastic houses. Sorry for contradicting either you or Norbert. I wish I was wrong, or that someone could show how to have a fire without opening a window, door or combustion air duct, since I would much prefer not to create INTERNAL heat-loss AND condensation (even with insulation) in cold weather. So there you have it. I will be eating my breakfast in 45 minutes, prepared by last night's fire (40 pounds, in a cold fireplace). Thanks for the many valuable contributions of both you gentlemen. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, John Straube wrote: > > On Tuesday, January 26, 1999 10:18 AM, Jorg D. Ostrowski > [SMTP:jdo@ucalgary.ca] wrote: > > Sorry to contradict your musings above. A fireplace certainly can > > affect indoor air quality (CO, PM-10, etc.), if normal people operat > Of course, this is true, but the question was "does using indoor air as > combustion air cause IAQ problems". The answer to the above question, the > question to which I replied, is no, for all the very detailed, technical, > and documented reasons Nobert Senf gave (who may be the only person on the > planet who knows more about masonry stoves, or at least those in the real > world, than yourself) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube > Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group > 165 Albert St University of Waterloo > Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. > Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 > Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 > Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 27 09:59:53 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12454 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:59:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07765; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:54:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:50:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07217 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:50:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07151; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:49:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp024.cd.centuryinter.net (ppp024.cd.centuryinter.net [209.142.147.96]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA21997; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:50:44 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36AF5893.6543@centuryinter.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:18:59 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Reply-To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: evaluate gravel slab Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk According to the information posted I have estimated that my 100 yard road gravel slab will hold 60,000 to 80,000 BTU's per degree F. How do I determine its effeciency or effectiveness? This is an experimental venture and I would like to evaluate it. Keith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 27 10:04:52 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12611 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:04:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08282; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:59:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:55:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07912 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:55:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07908 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:55:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from oemcomputer ([208.3.220.5]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.08) id 1888600 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:05:11 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990127095823.0079e400@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:58:23 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Re: Pesticide residues In-Reply-To: <199901260700.CAA10019@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Bruce Coldham wrote: >We are considering a parcel of land adjacent to a highway in Hadley MA for >a private high school. It has been farmed (raising corn) for a long time. >Does anuone have any SPECIFIC knowledge of adverse human health effects >from herbicide or pesticide in the soil from buildings and recreation >fields so situated. Don't have any specific info of adverse human health effects but I do know that if the farmer was applying for organic certification for the crops it would have to be free of pesticides, herbicides, and commercial fertilizers for 3 to 5 years depending upon the certification group. After this period of time the crops could be labeled as organically grown if all of the necessary guidelines have be followed. During this time the crops are typically called transitionally organic. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 27 12:43:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16181 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:43:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19197; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:37:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:33:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18747 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:32:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.privat.kkf.net (privat.kkf.net [212.63.32.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18742 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:32:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from privat.kkf.net (mi-dial10.privat.kkf.net [212.63.37.10]) by mail.privat.kkf.net (8.8.8/8.8.3) with SMTP id SAA05299 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:34:05 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199901271734.SAA05299@mail.privat.kkf.net> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:06:42 +0100 From: "Alexander.Neumann" Reply-To: "Alexander.Neumann" To: Greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Insulation ratio walls/roof X-Mailer: AK-Mail 3.0b [ger] (unregistered) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA18743 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear fellows, Is there a calculated or experienced efficiency ratio of wall to roof insulation? Like if I got a certain Roof R-value that it makes no economical or ecological sense to have the wall R-value higher than a certain percentage of the roof R-value? ( for a 45 degree roof that is) Yours, Alex N. Nuclear free europe is dawning! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 27 13:36:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA17276 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:36:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23389; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:30:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:26:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22652 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:26:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (wfntnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.37.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22634 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:26:25 -0500 (EST) From: swiftjr@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 85256706.00655C1F ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:27:07 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: Alex@privat.kkf.net cc: Greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <85256706.006190E9.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:27:08 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulation ratio walls/roof Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Assuming you are located in a heating dominated climate and have minimal stratification, the heat transfer (loss) through a given area of wall is no less than (and probably higher in most cases) than the heat loss through the same area of ceiling insulated to the same R-value (cathedral or attic). Of course, this is only considering conductive losses and doesn't take into account infiltration which is a totally different beast altogether. The reasons we see generally see more insulation in the ceiling are as follows. The myth that heat rises (this is why air sealing is important - insulation usually can't be relied upon for this). There's more room. Ceilings are generally the easiest and most cost effective (to a degree) place to beef up your R-value. Building codes require more insulation in the ceiling. Just for kicks, ask you building inspector why this is code and see what type of response you get. Hope this answers your question. Joe Swift Energy Crafted Home Program Connecticut Light and Power ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 27 14:34:15 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18604 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:34:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26757; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:28:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:24:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26332 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:23:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from aec.ncsu.edu (pc532.aec.ncsu.edu [152.1.210.157]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26326 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:23:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from AE-Message_Server by aec.ncsu.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:27:53 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:27:36 -0500 From: "Arnie Katz" To: swiftjr@NU.COM, Alex@privat.kkf.net Cc: Greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulation ratio walls/roof Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id OAA26327 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk In addition to what's below, if you are cooling the building, the attic temperature is typically much higher that the outside temperature, meaning the temperature difference is much greater, meaning the conductive heat gain through the ceiling will be much greater than through the walls, if the R-value is the same. >>> 01/27 1:27 PM >>> Assuming you are located in a heating dominated climate and have minimal stratification, the heat transfer (loss) through a given area of wall is no less than (and probably higher in most cases) than the heat loss through the same area of ceiling insulated to the same R-value (cathedral or attic). Of course, this is only considering conductive losses and doesn't take into account infiltration which is a totally different beast altogether. The reasons we see generally see more insulation in the ceiling are as follows. The myth that heat rises (this is why air sealing is important - insulation usually can't be relied upon for this). There's more room. Ceilings are generally the easiest and most cost effective (to a degree) place to beef up your R-value. Building codes require more insulation in the ceiling. Just for kicks, ask you building inspector why this is code and see what type of response you get. Hope this answers your question. Joe Swift Energy Crafted Home Program Connecticut Light and Power ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 27 15:03:03 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA19260 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:03:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28651; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:56:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:52:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28280 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:52:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28264 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:52:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-2-209.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.2.209]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA16703; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:53:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36AF70AF.13192B57@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:01:51 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: swiftjr@NU.COM CC: Alex@privat.kkf.net, Greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulation ratio walls/roof References: <85256706.006190E9.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk When you say the 'The myth that heat rises', do you mean to say that: 1) Warm air doesn't rise? 2) Heat does not rise through air? 3) Air does not equilibriate its energy in a closed system? Not quite sure I understand what the myth is? And, as a follow-up question what actually happens to these gas molecules of stuff with higher kinetic and vibrational energy than other molecules in the room. In what way does the heat dissipate(equilibriate?) from the higher energy molecules to the lower ones? Is it purely random in direction? Does gravity have no effect? Does heat really not rise? Freak me out. I'm not questioning that the attic thing is likely just cause there is more space in the attic. That makes alot of sense to me. Just wondering about this myth. Neil swiftjr@NU.COM wrote: > > Assuming you are located in a heating dominated climate and have minimal > stratification, the heat transfer (loss) through a given area of wall is no > less than (and probably higher in most cases) than the heat loss through > the same area of ceiling insulated to the same R-value (cathedral or > attic). Of course, this is only considering conductive losses and doesn't > take into account infiltration which is a totally different beast > altogether. > The reasons we see generally see more insulation in the ceiling are > as follows. > The myth that heat rises (this is why air sealing is important - > insulation usually can't be relied upon for this). > There's more room. Ceilings are generally the easiest and most cost > effective (to a degree) place to beef up your R-value. > Building codes require more insulation in the ceiling. Just for kicks, > ask you building inspector why this is code and see what type of > response you get. > > Hope this answers your question. > Joe Swift > Energy Crafted Home Program > Connecticut Light and Power > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 27 15:44:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA20343 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:44:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02980; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:33:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA02504 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:33:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (wfntnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.37.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02491 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:33:34 -0500 (EST) From: swiftjr@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 85256706.0070FFE9 ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:34:15 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca cc: Alex@privat.kkf.net, Greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <85256706.006E1A60.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:34:16 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulation ratio walls/roof Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I think we are talking about two different (there are three, the third being radiation) heat transfer mechanisms: 1) Conduction -- Heat will travel from hot to cold in ALL directions. We insulate to prevent conduction (and to some degree, convection, since some insulations will slow down air movement). The R-value on insulation is a measure of how well it slows down conduction (IN ALL DIRECTIONS). 2) Convection -- warm air (or fluid) rising because it is less dense. We air-seal building, especially ceilings, for among reasons, to prevent convective losses. Once again, insulation does not usually do a good job preventing convection/infiltration (but that's a whole different story). If we focus on conductive losses ( i.e. a well sealed house), so we can focus on what the insulation (this was originally a question about insulation) is doing, then the rate of heat transfer is proportional to the temperature difference, and inversly proportional to the R-value. It has nothing to do with direction. In simple terms, that bonus room over the garage better have R-30 because my feet are going to touch the floor more than my head is going to touch the ceiling. And that floor will get cold otherwise because of heat conducting DOWN. Joe Swift ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 27 16:37:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA21597 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:37:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06703; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:31:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:27:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA06115 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:26:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.kwom.com (root@mail.kwom.com [206.185.16.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA06110 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:26:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from vzngemxl (usr-1-03.kwom.com [206.185.17.131]) by mail.kwom.com (8.9.2/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA15308 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:27:44 -0600 (CST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:29:26 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE4A09.D2C15800.hkreitz@kwom.com> From: Heidi Kreitz To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: GBlist / Drywall Recycling Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:18:07 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Just wanted to add to what Michael Iversen had to say regarding drywall recycling: >> Cornerstone Material Recovery > > McHenry, IL (telephone no. unknown. There is a chance they no > longer recycle gypsum board) > > Contact: Steve Clements > > Business Type: Hauler and processor. Contact information for Cornerstone Material Recovery: Steve or Tim Clements 5113 S. Route 31 Ringwood, IL 60072 815-653-1972 However, I do not think they are handling gypsum at this time due to a lack of markets. > > Also, in 1997, USG Corp. was considering accepting discarded > gypsum at their East Chicago, IN plant. If you decide to investigate > this possibility, the contact for USG at that time was Charlie Byers. US Gypsum Co. Charlie Byers, Manager of Product Safety 700 N. Highway 45 Libertyville, IL 60048 847-970-5079 > > For additional information on this topic, you may refer to the > Construction and Demolition Site Recycling Guidebook and > Directory, which is available from the Illinois Dept. of > Commerce and Community Affairs (217.785.2800) and the Green Construction > Council (Brett Holland/Patrick Engineering, 312.220.0720). > Also, the Solid Waste Dept. of DuPage County, IL > (630.682.7373) completed a study entitled "Gypsum Market Development" in > 1997, which identified gypsum recycling techniques, haulers and > processors, and long term markets for discarded gypsum in the Chicago > area. Dean Olson was the contact person for the Solid Waste Dept. at > that time. The USEPA, National Association of Home Builders Research Center, and the Indiana Department of Environmental Management recently conducted a pilot study whereby construction waste (including wood, OCC, and drywall) was ground and land-applied on site. If anyone is interested in the details of this study, I can provide you with contacts at each of the agencies listed above. In addition, Brett Holland is no longer with Patrick Engineering, and Dean Olson is now with Will County. However, if you are interested in receiving copies of the "Construction and Demolition Site Recycling Guidebook and Directory," you can request copies from either Paul Ruesch of the USEPA or myself. Finally, the Will County Waste Services Division hosted a seminar on January 21, 1999 called "Construction Debris Recycling: Let's Take the Next Step!". The majority of the speakers at the conference expressed the absence of drywal markets in the Chicago area. If you are interested in receiving information from the conference, please feel free to contact me at: Heidi Kreitz, Environmental Protection Specialist Will County Land Use Department, Waste Services Division 313 N. Chicago St. Joliet, IL 60432 815-727-8834 hkreitz@kwom.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 27 22:37:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA27529 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:37:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA28328; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:32:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:27:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA27512 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:26:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA27508 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-24-163.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.163]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA22430; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:27:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:32:47 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE4A44.F6EFE120.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca'" , "swiftjr@NU.COM" Cc: "Alex@privat.kkf.net" , "Greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Insulation ratio walls/roof Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:58:59 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Wednesday, January 27, 1999 3:02 PM, Neil Spiegel [SMTP:nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca] wrote: Although hot air (or more generally, fluids relative to the surroundings in which they are immersed) rises, in any decent house the temperature difference between the floor and ceiling should only be a few to five degrees (the latter indicating uncomfortable conditions) in cold weather. So although hot air rises, the difference in temp at the floor and at the ceiling is not great. Therefore, we do not place more insulation in the ceiling than wall because hot air rises. Solar heat gain in summer is a more rational tehnical reason. Solar gain through a roof can be quite significant. On this thread, one would likely choose a ratio of 1.5 times the R-value of walls depending on the effect of the heat gain on the building. Often it is more effective to spend money on avoiding solar gain through the windows once you get over R30 or R40 in the roof. However, if we consider codes, more insul in the attic does not make sense on technical grounds, since it would be much easier to ban black shingles than mandate R40 (change from grey to black reduces solar gain 15% or so and costs no money). The only reason I have found that explains the ceiling R-values in Codes is the cost -- it is very cheap to insulate ceilings in attics, and an extra inch is even more inexpensice. This is also the reason why cathedral ceilings (which are essentially walls on their side) have lower R-value requirements in codes. Walls cost a lot to insulate beyond a certain minimum. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 27 23:54:34 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA28669 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:54:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA01274; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:48:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:45:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA00997 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:44:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00992 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:44:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.125] (pm3a16.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.240]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA09884; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:45:50 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) [207.136.199.125] from pm3a16.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.240] 207.136.199.240 Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:45:50 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: nmalin@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199901280438.XAA00726@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:46:11 -0500 To: "Gustavo Wilches-Chaux" From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: C&D waste from ARMENIA EARTHQUAKE Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Greetings, I am providing below contact information for an office in Los Angeles that managed construction waste from the Northridge Earthquake. I am also forwarding your inquiry to others who may have more information. GBlisters--please respond to Gustavo directly. Thanks, Nadav >From: "Gustavo Wilches-Chaux" >To: >Subject: ARMENIA EARTHQUAKE >Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:33:33 -0000 > >I am writing to you because I am looking for information about the correct >management of huge amounts of earthquake affected buildings after the last >Earthquake in Armenia (Colombia). Most debris are made of Guadua (Bamboo), >Cement and Concrete, Brick, Iron bars, Asbest-Cement, Zink foils. We are in >special need of advice on how to cause the less possible environmental >impact when one needs to dispose thousands of tons of EQ produced debris. > >Have you got any information about this topic? > >Thankyou in advance for your assistance. > >Gustavo Wilches-Chaux >Community advisor > Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 28 08:51:03 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA03856 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:51:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA17402; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:45:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:41:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17117 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:41:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17109 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:41:12 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id FTKGa27768 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:41:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <90be04ef.36b0691a@aol.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:41:46 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Insulation ratio walls/roof Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:27:08 -0500 swiftjr@NU.COMwrites: >Assuming you are located in a heating dominated climate and have minimal >stratification, the heat transfer (loss) through a given area of wall is no >less than (and probably higher in most cases) than the heat loss through >the same area of ceiling insulated to the same R-value (cathedral or attic). But then again the impact of the heat loss through the ceiling (ice damming) is much more than impact-free loss through the side walls. Besides, once the insulators are blowing in 10" of insulation it costs very little more to make it 14" or 16". Go for it. You only spend the money to insulate once and then spend to heat the building (and associated pollution) year after year after year. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc., Inc. Contractors, Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 28 09:40:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04527 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:40:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19434; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:35:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:31:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19075 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:31:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (wfntnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.37.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19070 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:31:06 -0500 (EST) From: swiftjr@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 85256707.004FCB17 ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:31:33 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: Caaradrbl@aol.com cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <85256707.004C91A3.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:31:27 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulation ratio walls/roof Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I am not trying to discourage insulation in the ceiling - I can't agree with you more in that respect. Go for it! I was simply trying to dispel the myth that heat only rises. Bear this in mind before you run down to Home Depot. You will eventually reach the point of diminishing returns-- i.e. Consider other more cost effective options before you go and put R-60+ in your attic. A ventilated and well insulated attic can easily become prone to ice damns and moisture related problems if is not well sealed. Do not count on your fiberglass insulation (at any R-value) to do this (prevent moisture migration through convection). It's job is to prevent conductive losses, which it does fairly well on most homes but that's only a part of the story. Seal all penetrations and by all means, be extremely cautious with ducts and mechanical equipment located up there or you could be asking for big trouble. Joe ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 28 10:41:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA05634 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:41:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23571; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:35:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:31:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23201 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:31:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23182 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:31:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com [world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]] by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA02282; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:32:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA21914; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:32:37 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:32:37 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Cc: "Ross M. Donald" Subject: GBlist: Indonesia lumber (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:17:23 -0800 (PST) From: Rainforest Relief To: jpayne@athens.net Cc: rags-rap@igc.org, mbrune@ran.org Subject: Re: Indonesia Jennifer, Thanks for getting in touch. And thanks for your concern about Indonesian hardwoods! They are a *big* problem! The biggest when it comes to orangs. >I am a member of the Balikpapan Orangutan Society-USA and I am seeking >to help this organization to educate its members about what they can do >as consumers to help stop the destruction of Indonesia's forests. Please tell me more about your group. >Specifically I am seeking information on types of hardwoods that are >indigenous to Indonesia that they should avoid purchasing. I am also >wondering if tropical plywoods are known to contain wood logged from >Indonesian forests. Tropical plywood is the major part of the problem. Lauan (also called meranti) is a generic term for tropical plywood. Begun in the Philippines in the 1930s (becoming a huge export by the 1950s), tropical plywood production has swept through southeast Asia like a 40-year fire. The Philippines are over 80% deforested, as is Thailand. Sabah and Sarawak, the two Malaysian states that promoted logging, are over 50% logged out. Indonesia is now the major producer of tropical plywood in the world, with about 90% (!) of the global trade! The woods used in its production include hundreds of species. Any Dipterocarps (a family of trees) are targeted, mostly in the Shorea genus, but Indonesia has many genuses that are targeted. The large trees are targeted, which are cored laterally (peeled like a roll of toilet paper) into thin sheets which are laminated (glued) together at 90-degree angles to make the plywood. ALL TROPICAL PLYWOOD IS PROBLEMATIC! There are no sustainable tropical plywood projects. The plywood is used for lots of things, the biggest use being the facinig (skin) of interior (hollow core) doors. The biggest retailer of this material (and these doors) is The Home Depot, but you will find them in all home improvement centers and most lumber yards. A huge importer used to be Georgia Pacific. We have no reason to believe they are not still the biggest, but there are many players. Big port of entry are Camden, NJ and Long Beach, CA. Big users of the plywood are Hollywood studios (for set construction) and Broadway theatres. Also, furniture makers use alot of lauan for backing of dressers and dresser drawers and the backing of shelf units. It's used a lot in construction for subflooring and subroofing. It's used also in general construction where small pieces of plywood are called for. In general, lauan has almost completely replaced domestic hardwood plywood across the board (no pun intended). The second wood that concerns us is ramin. Ramin is an endangered species that grows in the peat (swamp) rainforests of Borneo. It is being eliminated from its entire range by loggers. The largest use of ramin is for dowels. Indonesia has become the world's largest dowel producer. Entire mills are devoted to it. Dowels are used in numerous ways, but by far the largest use is for tool handles. Rakes, brooms, mops, plungers, brushes and the handles of other tools are often made from ramin dowels. Even "made in the USA" is no guarantee, since many of the tool companies (like Ames, for instance) import ramin dowels to make many of their rakes and brooms. Ramin is also use extensively in furniture and the Indonesian furniture manufacturers are pushing hard for the American market. Especially futons. All furniture should be suspect. Ramin is a blond wood, but it is often stained. Another Indonesian wood we have found in futons is called durien (or durian). I believe it may be the wood of the infamous fruit called durian but have yet to be able to research this. If so, it's possible this is a plantation wood. So, the biggest mess is lauan (tropical plywood, interior doors, furniture) with ramin imports (dowels, tool handles, furniture) being highly problematic as well. >Any other information you have regarding Indonesian >products consumers should avoid, or companies that are known to use >Indonesian forest material in their products would also be greatly >appreciated. Yes, rayon is a major problem, as is palm oil. Rayon is made from wood pulp -- a particular kind called "dissolving pulp" which demands a very clean input stream. Indonesia has now eclipsed Japan and Korea as the largest producer of rayon. The rayon mills are *huge* consumers of rainforests. People should avoid rayon at all costs (unless it is from a thrift store). Palm oil plantations are a huge problem for orangutans (both in Indo and Malaysia) as entire forests are buzzed down to make way for the monoculture (with the same companies doing the initial logging and burning off of slash). Palm oil is found in many foods. It should be avoided at all costs. One thing groups could do is target companies using palm oil on environmental (orang) grounds. We could start a palm oil boycott. This would be very effective. We could coordinate with a lot of other groups that would be interested. I assume you have the report on endangered orangutans by the Environmetal Investigation Agency? If you don't you should get it, because it spells out a lot of this, all in terms of how it'e effecting orangs. >We will be sure to cite Rainforest Relief for this >information in our publications. That would be appreciated. Please put us on the list to receive them (or if there is a fee, let me know). Please, let's coordinate on some actions!! We have targeted Home Depot and are soon to go after Hollywood and Broadway set construction. Please join these efforts. I have had a rough orangutan costume made for actions concerning lauan (actually, the mask is a gorilla mask died orange -- these companies like to take the cheap way out). It would be really great if some groups could get together (like yours and EIA, perhaps) to fund the making of a number of orang costumes which could be loaned out to groups doing actions on lauan or palm oil (in the future, I hope). This would be an excellent way to get media. The other option is an orangutan inflatable. Please think about this and let me know. We don't have the funds to do something like that, but we could sure put them to good use! Please let me know. Also, let me know if you need something more comprehensive written up or if you're gonna do it yourself. For Earth, tim keating __________________________________________________ R A I N F O R E S T R E L I E F Dedicated to Sparing the World's Rainforests Rainforest Relief works to protect the world's remaining tropical and temperate rainforests by reducing the demand for the products and materials of rainforest destruction such as timber, plantation agricultural products such as bananas, beef, coffee, chocolate, and cut flowers and mining products such as gold, oil and other metals. Brooklyn, NY: phone/fax: (718) 398-3760 Portland, OR: (503) 236-3031 Email: relief@igc.apc.org http://enviroweb.org/rainrelief P.O. 150566 * Brooklyn, NY 11215 USA <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Send press releases, announcements, and notices of interest to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 To receive the next edition of the Environmental Review, send, subscribe er-list, to ; for Solar Utilities info, send, subscribe solar_utilities ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 28 10:53:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06048 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:53:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA24456; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:47:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:43:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24014 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:43:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.az.com (kristina.az.com [204.57.139.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24010 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:43:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from chris (ppp44.atlantica.net [204.57.139.44]) by www.az.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA10853 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:44:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cwebb@az.com) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990128074452.007a4610@lucy.az.com> X-Sender: cwebb@lucy.az.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:44:52 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Chris Webb Subject: GBlist: Finger Jointed Studs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Good morning all, Has anyone had any (negative or positive) experience with code approval or use of Finger Jointed Studs for exterior or load bearing walls? Where is the Finger Jointed Stud Research? Is it on-line? Thanks, --Chris --------------------------------------------------------------- Christopher J. Webb, EIT "To Provide simple economic Project Engineer/Principal solutions to complex environmental 2020 ENGINEERING issues ... to meet future needs" PO Box 1621 Bellingham, WA 98227 USA http://www.az.com/~cwebb/2020.htm (360)671-2020 fax:(360)671-0322 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 28 11:46:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07528 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:46:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00023; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:40:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:36:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29561 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:36:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29546 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:36:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com [world-f.std.com [199.172.62.5]] by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA13418; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:37:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA01344; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:37:50 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:37:50 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Cc: Courtney Miller Subject: GBlist: CAD Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Here's an article recommended to you by "Ross M. Donald" from The Boston Globe Online [ http://www.boston.com/globe ] ____________________________________________________________ The following story appeared in The Globe Online: Date: 01/28/99 Headline: Playing architect on your PC Story Intro: It all started in December 1994, when my wife and I decided to spend Christmas vacation at a quaint inn on Martha's Vineyard. We made the mistake of picking up a real estate guide. By the following May we'd bought a little house in Vineyard Haven that was quite picturesque, but also in desperate need of repair. Today, nearly four years later, the renovations still aren't finished. ____________________________________________________________ If you're interested in the rest of this story point your web browser to: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/028/business/Playing_architect_on_your_PC+.shtml ____________________________________________________________ This message was sent by rnn@rnn.com (UNVERIFIED ADDRESS) through The Boston Globe Online [http://www.boston.com/globe]. The Globe Online's "Pass it on..." Article Recommendation service, and all other Globe Online services, are provided free to users. To find out more about "Pass it on..." visit http://www.boston.com/globe/. If you have complaints or comments about this service, please e-mail glofeed@globe.com. ____________________________________________________________ Send press releases, announcements, and notices of interest to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 To receive the next edition of the Environmental Review, send, subscribe er-list, to ; for Solar Utilities info, send, subscribe solar_utilities ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 28 12:43:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08926 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:43:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04067; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:37:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:33:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03597 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:33:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from nugget.corecom.net (nugget.corecom.net [216.47.3.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03575 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:33:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from poppy.ahfc.state.ak.us (poppy.ahfc.state.ak.us [205.159.28.20]) by nugget.corecom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA09026 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 05:28:37 -0900 (AKST) Reply-To: From: "Scott Waterman" To: Subject: GBlist: Vent Dampers Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:38:21 -0900 Message-ID: <000501be4ae5$02da9c00$84ca10ac@swaterma.ahfc.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE4A99.92F2F400" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE4A99.92F2F400 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ventilation of older homes when tightened and sealed often requires the addition of additional ventilation. When fans are added, the outside vent dampers are installed. In windy areas, these can flap and often occupants will go out and stuff a rag in the duct to keep it from making noise in the wind. Any ideas for damper types that resist making noise in the wind? Thanks Scott Waterman ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE4A99.92F2F400 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="winmail.dat" eJ8+IhoRAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEGgAMADgAAAM8HAQAcAAgAJgAAAAQAJQEB A5AGAAwHAAArAAAACwACAAEAAAALACMAAQAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAEAAAALACsAAAAAAAMALgAA AAAAAgExAAEAAADEAAAAUENERkVCMDkAAQACAFIAAAAAAAAAOKG7EAXlEBqhuwgAKypWwgAAbXNw c3QuZGxsAAAAAABOSVRB+b+4AQCqADfZbgAAAEM6XERhdGFcb3V0bG9va1xDd2JtdzQwMC5wc3QA GAAAAAAAAAB7XJTxOXLSEaKZACA1A4V7ooAAAAAAAAAYAAAAAAAAAHtclPE5ctIRopkAIDUDhXvC gAAAEAAAANjrM4eIttIRopkAIDUDhXsNAAAAVmVudCBEYW1wZXJzAAMANgAAAAAAHgBwAAEAAAAd AAAAZ3JlZW5idWlsZGluZy1kaWdlc3QgVjIgIzQ0OAAAAAACAXEAAQAAABsAAAABvkD0H7drtQdk rJsR0qKZACA1A4V7Anwb4EAAAgEdDAEAAAAfAAAAU01UUDpTV0FURVJNQUBBSEZDLlNUQVRFLkFL LlVTAAALAAEOAAAAAEAABg4ADNXy5Eq+AQIBCg4BAAAAGAAAAAAAAAB7XJTxOXLSEaKZACA1A4V7 woAAAAMAFA4BAAAACwAfDgEAAAADAAYQZhT1KwMABxA+AQAAHgAIEAEAAABlAAAAVkVOVElMQVRJ T05PRk9MREVSSE9NRVNXSEVOVElHSFRFTkVEQU5EU0VBTEVET0ZURU5SRVFVSVJFU1RIRUFERElU SU9OT0ZBRERJVElPTkFMVkVOVElMQVRJT05XSEVORkFOUwAAAAACAQkQAQAAAL8BAAC7AQAApQIA AExaRnXsF2zGAwAKAHJjcGcxMjXiMgNDdGV4BUEBAwH3/wqAAqQD5AcTAoAP8wBQBFY/CFUHshEl DlEDAQIAY2jhCsBzZXQyBgAGwxEl9jMERhO3MBIsETMI7wn3tjsYHw4wNREiDGBjAFCzCwkBZDM2 FlALp2MBMNQgVgnwdAMQYR1gAiAoIG9mHeBsBIEgaFMDcAeRd2gJ8CAdYGfqaA6wbgmAIABwH7AU EC8HQB+hHfAfcSAYIHF1NmkYIAQgdB7wH8BkZE5pHaYhtgdAIHYdSC70IFce8mYGIgrAIZMJgHYs IWMIYHQAkAEAIxMgcGRhbXAEkCR0C4Bz7QGQbCBBI9BJA6AD8B/gMnkkgmFzJSMUECBjNQORZgtg cB/DIIRvY3xjdQqwAjAewQMQAyBn5m8lch/EdHUBIB/AINBsYWcnASFjZBrQBUB0fStQawngKZAh 4CQwA2EgzQDAawuALJBubwQAJvLnIWMn8iPQQW4oMCXBKIDvJDAFsSZUHyB5JoAhUh2Q3yDRAJAn MC5vL3Y/CqIKhEUKgFQT4G5rczQaU38FoAJAI+AdkASQA4E0FH0BN0AAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAA AB4AQhABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAALAACACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAADhQAAAAAAAAMAAoAIIAYA AAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwAIgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAAPATAAAe AAmACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABUhQAAAQAAAAQAAAA4LjUACwAKgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAA AEYAAAAABoUAAAAAAAADAAuACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAABhQAAAAAAAAsAFIAIIAYAAAAA AMAAAAAAAABGAAAAAA6FAAAAAAAAAwAVgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAEYUAAAAAAAADABeA CCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAYhQAAAAAAAB4AJoAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAAB AAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeACeACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgAogAgg BgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAAsAM4ALIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAA AACIAAAAAAAACwA1gAsgBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAABYgAAAAAAAACAfgPAQAAABAAAAB7XJTx OXLSEaKZACA1A4V7AgH6DwEAAAAQAAAAe1yU8Tly0hGimQAgNQOFewIB+w8BAAAAUgAAAAAAAAA4 obsQBeUQGqG7CAArKlbCAABtc3BzdC5kbGwAAAAAAE5JVEH5v7gBAKoAN9luAAAAQzpcRGF0YVxv dXRsb29rXEN3Ym13NDAwLnBzdAAAAAMA/g8FAAAAAwANNP03AAACAX8AAQAAADEAAAAwMDAwMDAw MDdCNUM5NEYxMzk3MkQyMTFBMjk5MDAyMDM1MDM4NTdCQzQyMjIxMDAAAAAAwWo= ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01BE4A99.92F2F400-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 28 17:52:36 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA14950 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:52:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA26345; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:46:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:42:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA25708 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu (eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.223]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA25683 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:41:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin028.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.38]) by eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/) with SMTP id OAA24595; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:41:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36B0E722.25E7@uidaho.edu> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:39:30 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Webb CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Finger Jointed Studs References: <3.0.5.32.19990128074452.007a4610@lucy.az.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi Chris, You might want to try contacting: Willamette Industries Engineered Wood Products P.O. Box 277 Saginaw, OR 97472 503-744-4664 Standard Structures Inc. P.O. Box K Santa Rosa, CA 95402 707-544-2982 Both companies make finger-jointed framing lumber, beams, columns, and/or headers. Kurt Rathmann 3 Little Pigs Design-Build Moscow, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 28 18:47:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA15881 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:47:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA29276; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:37:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA28761 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:37:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28749; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:37:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp031.cd.centuryinter.net (ppp031.cd.centuryinter.net [209.142.147.103]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA20700; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:35:54 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36B12508.646E@centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:03:37 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Reply-To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Swearingen CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: evaluate gravel slab References: <36AF5893.6543@centuryinter.net> <3.0.5.32.19990128133805.007a33f0@skillful-means.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk John Swearingen wrote: > > > Just a note about linking radiant slabs to earth storage. The > effectiveness of the earth as a storage and insulating medium is very > dependant upon the moisture content of the soil. An uninsulated, heated > slab will perform well over dry ground, but if the ground is moist, the > water in the soil will soak up and dissapate the heat from the slab very > rapidly, and heating bills will go up. You can assure a dry slab with good > perimeter drains and foundation waterproofing. > > John The slab is built on sandy well drained soil and will certainly stay dry. My question is how do I evaluate the effectiveness of this design? Keith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 28 21:15:53 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA18228 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:15:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08272; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:10:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:06:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07906 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:05:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.net (laurel.us.net [198.240.72.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07902 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:05:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from amos (host28.pmi1.laurel.us.net [207.244.200.28]) by us.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA23215 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:59:06 -0500 (EST) X-Provider: US Net - Advanced Internet Services - 301-361-USNET - info@us.net Where Business Connects! (tm) -- http://www.us.net/ Reply-To: From: "Satterlee" To: "Greenbuilding listserv (E-mail)" Subject: GBlist: NYC Boiler Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 21:01:48 -0500 Message-ID: <000301be4b2b$55cfa0e0$1cc8f4cf@amos> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi folks: Looking for a reference for a mechanical contractor/designer in Manhattan area advise on what to do with an existing boiler/radiator system in an 8 story loft building. Either post here or e-mail direct. TIA. amos ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 29 07:08:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA24726 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:08:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA00736; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:02:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 Jan 1999 06:58:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA00426 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 06:57:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA00422 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 06:57:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-47.netcom.ca [207.181.90.111]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA25461; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 06:58:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990129063858.00afacc0@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 06:56:07 -0400 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: Norbert Senf Subject: RE: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: References: <01BE4972.44C652E0.jfstraube@golden.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 07:43 AM 27/01/99 -0700, Jorg Ostrowskit wrote: (snip) >In addition, when my combustion air duct (which I would prefer >NOT to use at -37dC) is closed (ie. motorized damper), the fire goes out! >We CAN NOT HAVE A FIRE WITH THE COMBUSTION AIR DUCT CLOSED, unless you >want a house full of smoke! (snip) If (contrary to code) you were to hook your combustion air duct up to the inside of your house instead of the outside, your heater will work fine, unless you have a pressure problem for some other reason. If you don't supply the fuel with air, it won't burn (oviously) - it will smolder and fill your house with smoke because there is no heat production on startup to provide a chimney draft. The CO2 that is produced is heavier than air, and will stall in your chimney and come back down, (a propane torch held in the cleanout for a few seconds is the cure for this doomsday scenario). Many heaters and woodstoves have a combustion air inlet right in the loading door, so that they have no choice but to take air from the house. The older Tempcast loading door is a copy of a Finnish door and has room air inlets built into it. In your case, with the electric air damper closed, your heater will burn if you crack the loading door open. By the way, if your heater is burning full tilt, and you momentarily close off all combustion air, and then turn it on again, you can blow the glass right out of your doors (don't try this at home, kids ;-) Best.........Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 29 08:00:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA25140 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:00:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA02163; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:55:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:51:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA01887 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:51:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA01883 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:51:18 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id FCUZa23181 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:52:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <72d613ee.36b1aef7@aol.com> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:52:07 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Insulation ratio walls/roof Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated 99-01-28 08:44:08 EST, Caaradrbl@aol.com writes: << Assuming you are located in a heating dominated climate and have minimal >stratification, the heat transfer (loss) through a given area of wall is no >less than (and probably higher in most cases) than the heat loss through >the same area of ceiling insulated to the same R-value (cathedral or attic). >> question - wouldn't the chimney effect be greater through a "hole" in the ceiling, than the wall ??? Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 29 08:29:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA25685 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:29:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03611; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:24:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:20:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA03178 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03173 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:19:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.39] (rkd015.acadia.net [208.244.128.39]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id IAA04355 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:21:08 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:19:50 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulation ratio walls/roof Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Joe Swift wrote: > Bear this in mind before you run down to Home Depot. > You will eventually reach the point of diminishing returns-- i.e. > Consider other more cost effective options before you go and put R-60+ > in your attic. > end of quote One has to be careful with the "diminishing returns" argument. It holds true assuming that nothing else about the building changes as you insulate further. But once very high insulation levels are reached (and proper air sealing and good windows, of course), an interesting thing happens: you can now more than pay for the efficiency measures by downsizing the mechanical systems. Result: the actual first cost of the building can be lower! For example: When I built the addition to my home that houses our office, I spent a lot of money on insulation. That's why our heating plant is a small Monitor heater that I bought secondhand from a friend for $350 (US). The 800 square foot addition uses about 125 gallons of 1-K kerosene a year to heat in a 7500 degree-day (English units) climate - AND it cost less to build than if we had used conventional insulation levels and conventional mechanicals. Marc Rosenbaum has written about this same idea in Journal of Light Construction. Amory Lovins published a similar argument, titled "Tunneling Through the Cost Barrier", and Wolfgang Feisch of Freiburg, Germany developed a similar analysis for the "Passivhaus" low-energy house he developed. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 29 09:50:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA28110 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:50:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07955; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:44:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:40:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07585 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:39:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (wfntnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.37.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07580 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:39:52 -0500 (EST) From: swiftjr@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 85256708.00502E9C ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:35:48 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: GrenSheltr@aol.com cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <85256708.004DF8D7.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:20:23 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulation ratio walls/roof Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Yes -- in general the chimney effect would be greater with a hole in the ceiling relative to a hole in the wall. But we were talking about insulation and conductive losses, not convection. Granted, some insulations do a good job at air sealing (but that's a different topic altogether), the R-value on insulation is a measure of how well it prevents conduction. Once again, the original discussion was regarding insulation and conductive losses and how they are NOT a function of direction. Joe ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 29 10:46:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29705 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13202; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:40:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:36:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12705 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:36:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12699 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:36:06 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ070388; Fri, 29 Jan 99 08:36:55 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA40834; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:36:21 -0700 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:36:21 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Scott Waterman Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Vent Dampers In-Reply-To: <000501be4ae5$02da9c00$84ca10ac@swaterma.ahfc.gov> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Scott: Have you investigated the "Heartland Dryer Vent Closure"? 1-800 437-4780. Jorg Ostrowski _____________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Scott Waterman wrote: > Ventilation of older homes when tightened and sealed often requires the > addition of additional ventilation. When fans are added, the outside vent > dampers are installed. In windy areas, these can flap and often occupants > will go out and stuff a rag in the duct to keep it from making noise in the > wind. Any ideas for damper types that resist making noise in the wind? > > Thanks > > Scott Waterman > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 29 11:00:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA00173 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 11:00:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14106; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:54:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:50:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13767 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:50:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from pct.edu (wpgate.pct.edu [12.4.137.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13763 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:50:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from Penn#032#College-Message_Server by pct.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:53:27 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:53:29 -0500 From: "Steve McCarthy" To: Subject: GBlist: Retrofitting mass in wood frame construction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAA13764 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I live in a 100 year old , two story , wood framed house in northern Pennsylvania. The house has been heated with wood since it was built and I'm now using a single small cast iron stove to heat the entire house. I am planning to renovate the room containing the wood heater this summer. Something that was recently mentioned in the discussion of the house in Vermont without a furnace caught my attention. It was the possibility of using double drywall to increase the mass of a building. The room in question is 22x16 with 8 ft walls. Believe it or not all the wall surfaces are wood and lots of it. The walls have 2 one inch layers of wood on the interior. The cavity is 3.5 inches filled with high density cellulose on the exterior walls. The outside of the frame has two one inch layers of wood. Like I said, lots of wood. The ceiling is also wood although they scrimped there ,using only one inch of tongue and groove. The entire interior is coated with several layers of old, and I assume, lead based paint. I occasionally experience overheating in this room when using the wood heater. I plan to encapsulate the painted surfaces in this room with Sheetrock. My questions to the group: will using one full inch of sheetrock instead of a half have any effect on the occasional overheating problem? Are there any other benefits that would result from double thick sheetrock? I don't want to use the additional materials unless it is beneficial from an energy perspective. I should add that this room is exposed to the exterior on one long and one short wall and has a conditioned space above it and an unheated basement below it. Thanks-Steve McCarthy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 29 16:39:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA09412 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:39:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11658; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:33:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:28:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11213 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:28:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from garnet.sover.net (garnet.sover.net [209.198.87.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11202 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:28:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from Alisa (usr0a65.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.65]) by garnet.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA18280; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:29:47 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) Alisa from usr0a65.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.65] 209.198.95.65 Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:29:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990129163001.00d20280@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:30:01 -0500 To: , From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: Vent Dampers In-Reply-To: <000501be4ae5$02da9c00$84ca10ac@swaterma.ahfc.gov> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Scott, There are spring-loaded backdraft dampers available which can be placed in -line in circular ducts, and there are exhaust hoods and plastic louvres which don't flap . A good source is Energy Federation Incorporated in Westborough Ma. Tel 508-870-2277 www.efi.org Good luck, Danny Sagan, Randolph VT. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 29 16:48:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA09719 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12285; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:42:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:38:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11910 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:38:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from eypdc04.eypae.com (eypdc04.eypae.com [205.234.22.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11906 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:37:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by eypdc04.eypae.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:39:43 -0500 Message-ID: <7149413C9A5AD01182DC0060971991CE017A5A0A@eypdc04.eypae.com> From: Peggy White To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: GBList: Designing for the Future Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:39:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk GBListers: Something of interest for those of you in the DC Metro area...... Designing for the Future - A Symposium on Sustainable Design Date Saturday, February 20, 1999 Time: 9:00 am to 2:00 pm Place: National Building Museum 401 F Street, NW Washington, DC Cost: $60 for members of CSI, AIA, and NBM; $70 for non-members This symposium will give design professionals some tools to help find the 'green solution' to the question of how to integrate sustainable design into their practice. KEYNOTE SPEAKER: Mr. William G Reed, AIA; Executive Director of Global Environmental Options (GEO). Mr. Reed is also an officer with the US Green Building Council (USGBC). In addition to architectural projects, he is involved in the development and refinement of benchmarks for the determination of what defines green building. Mr. Reed will discuss LEED, the USGBC green building rating system, and the development of an international rating systems. He will also give a perspective on what a sympathetic attitude towards green building means. CASE STUDY ONE: The Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) interior renovation project which is energy efficient and nutritious to boot! Learn how the NRDC combined good design and advanced technology to create the office of the future, today. Presented by the project designer, Ms. Sheila Kaplan, IIDA, Principal of Planit Design. CASE STUDY TWO: The renovation of Building 33 at the Navy Yard, Headquarters for the Naval Facilities Engineering Command (NAVFAC) - the project that proved that you can 'Go Green' without increasing construction costs, and resulted in the Navy issuing A/E procurement policies requiring integrated sustainable design. Presented by the project architect, Mr. M. Paul Brott, AIA, Chairman/CEO of Ewing Cole Cherry Brott, and Mr. Tony Diagonale, RA, Architectural Branch Manager of the Design Division of the EFA Chesapeake, NAVFAC. PANEL DISCUSSION: The panel will focus on using the environment as a catalyst for the design process, and provide a practical approach to integrating the philosophy of sustainability into building design. Our speakers will be joined by Ms. Sandra Mendler, AIA, Director of the HOK Sustainable Design Group, Chair of the AIA Committee on the Environment (COTE) for the Washington Chapter of the AIA, and Vice Chair of the advisory group for the COTE at AIA National. This program is presented by the Joint Program Committee of the DC Metropolitan Chapter of the Construction Specifications Institute (CSI) and the Washington Chapter of the AIA, and sponsored by the National Building Museum. A light brunch menu will be served. Registration: To register for this program, call the National Building Museum at 202.272.2448. On the day of the event, please plan on signing in between 8:30 and 9:00 am. This program will be worth 8 AIA/CES Learning Units under the Structured Self-Reported Program procedures, and .4 IIDA CES Learning Units (upon approval from IIDA). ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 29 17:26:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA10661 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:26:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA15452; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:20:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:16:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14939 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:16:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14920 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:15:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-03-142.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.128.142]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA08603 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:17:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:22:26 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE4BAB.F100B9C0.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: Re: Energy Effiicient Office Updates Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:13:41 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I need some information about previous field studies done to compare the energy consumption of an office building before and after energy-saving retrofits. The idea is to get an idea of what measures are effective in what types of climates and buildings, and to eventually rank them. Any references to literature and internet sources would be much appreciated. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 30 20:17:36 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA08825 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:17:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA13361; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:05:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12640 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:05:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12636; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:05:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp016.cd.centuryinter.net (ppp016.cd.centuryinter.net [209.142.147.88]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA05826; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:04:55 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36B3DD1C.77A1@centuryinter.net> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 20:33:32 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Reply-To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: strawbale@crest.org CC: coblist@deatech.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: evaluating road gravel slab Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I'm looking for three or four temperature sensors that I could bury at different locations in my compacted clay and gravel slab. I expect this will help me evaluate its performance, particularly if I am losing heat to the earth. Does anyone have knowledge of such things that could make a recomendation? I don't want to spend much if it can be avoided. Keith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 31 08:02:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA15709 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:02:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA03407; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:51:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA02770 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:51:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA02758; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:51:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on3-24.netcom.ca [207.181.90.152]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA09291; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:51:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990131050701.009e09d0@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 05:38:05 -0400 To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: evaluating road gravel slab Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org In-Reply-To: <36B3DD1C.77A1@centuryinter.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk You can get a 2 channel digital "indoor/outdoor thermometer" with a thermistor temp sensor on a 4 ft wire at Costco for about $20.00. It includes memory for maximum/minimum. The range is -50C to +70C. Buy three of them and bury the sensors at different depths. For $200, you can get a 5 channel sytem that includes signal conditioning and thermocouples and plugs into a laptop parallel port. It will draw a real-time graph and save data in an Excel database - check out http://accqu-data.com/ ...........Norbert At 08:33 PM 30/01/99 -0800, Keith wrote: >I'm looking for three or four temperature sensors that I could bury at >different locations in my compacted clay and gravel slab. I expect this >will help me evaluate its performance, particularly if I am losing heat >to the earth. > >Does anyone have knowledge of such things that could make a >recomendation? I don't want to spend much if it can be avoided. ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 31 08:07:59 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA15776 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:07:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03859; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 08:02:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:57:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA03390 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:56:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA03386 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:56:52 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id BSBAa07784 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:57:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4d978b1c.36b4532b@aol.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 07:57:15 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulation ratio walls/roof Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated 1/30/99 2:04:03 AM, dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) writes: >But once very high insulation levels are reached (and proper air >sealing and good windows, of course), an interesting thing happens: you >can now more than pay for the efficiency measures by downsizing the mechanical >systems. Result: the actual first cost of the building can be lower Great point. And it has been my experience that given a reasonable sized house (less than 2000 sf) even without the "open plan" style, the whole house warms readily without motorized help. That is to say the whole house warms up with little temperature differential between rooms due to the tightness and insulation of the envelope. My house is currently heater with a small Jotul 3. I also think that when computing payback on items like insulation a case can be made for using a 30 year figure at a minimum, and perhaps much longer since the insulation has no limit on it's usability. For my part I also chose Pella windows without insulated glass and instead used their "classic" window with a removable low E double glazing. The specs were comparable to the I.G. glass. The window I have today will be the same window in 100 years (assuming low E coatings don't lose their efficacy). They are much cheaper to repair as well since there are just two ordinary panes of glass, one of which has a coating. Look at repair costs when purchasing windows, it's frightening at times. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave. Assoc. Contractors, Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 31 10:05:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16943 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 10:05:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07165; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:59:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:54:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06829 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:53:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.privat.kkf.net (privat.kkf.net [212.63.32.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06825 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 09:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from privat.kkf.net (mi-dial13.privat.kkf.net [212.63.37.13]) by mail.privat.kkf.net (8.8.8/8.8.3) with SMTP id PAA12475 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:55:20 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199901311455.PAA12475@mail.privat.kkf.net> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:48:20 +0100 From: "Alexander.Neumann" Reply-To: "Alexander.Neumann" To: Greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulation ratio walls/roof X-Mailer: AK-Mail 3.0b [ger] (unregistered) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA06826 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > In a message dated 1/30/99 2:04:03 AM, dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. > Foley) > writes: >>But once very high insulation levels are reached (and proper air >>sealing and good windows, of course), an interesting thing happens: you >>can now more than pay for the efficiency measures by downsizing the > mechanical >>systems. Result: the actual first cost of the building can be lower Well, I can perfectly see this for the heating point. But does it still hold true for water heating? In my situation, the house-heating is merely a by-product of the natural-gas water heater, dimensioned for a 4-person household. The alternative for that would be solar collectors backed up with electric heaters, where I think the calculation is getting out of hand, unless you get that power from your local nuke. If people could prove this perceptions wrong I would be glad to hear specifics about their system. For the passive houses in Freiburg it should be added that Freiburg has a very pleasant climate, these houses wouldn´t work in any place in germany. (but as and where they are, they´re actually energy producers) Yours, Alex ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 31 11:57:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA18975 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:57:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10842; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:51:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:46:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10515 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:45:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberus.ca (mail.cyberus.ca [209.195.95.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10511 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:45:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from Cyberus.cyberus.ca (ip98.ts2.mn.dialup.ottawa.cyberus.ca [209.195.84.98]) by cyberus.ca (8.8.8/Cyberus Online Inc) with SMTP id LAA18497 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:47:20 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:47:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901311647.LAA18497@cyberus.ca> X-Sender: dyates@mail.cyberus.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Debbie Yates Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulation ratio walls/roof Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk In response to the statement that conduction is the same in a wall and a ceiling, I have a question? In my very rudimentary building science class at architecture school we were told that there was some convection within batt insulation itself. Since convection within a ceiling brings the warmer air to the outside surface whereas insulation in a floor brings the warmer air to the inside surface, the performance of the same R-value in a ceiling would be slightly less. Does this theory hold water? or is the difference neglible? Thanks, Debbie Yates Ottawa, ON Canada dyates@cyberus.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 31 13:37:08 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22070 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 13:37:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA14623; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 13:31:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 Jan 1999 13:26:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14283 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 13:25:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx1.magmacom.com (mx1.magmacom.com [206.191.0.217]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA14279 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 13:25:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.magma.ca (mail2.magma.ca [206.191.0.218]) by mx1.magmacom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA20938; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 13:27:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (port193.magma.ca [206.191.5.193]) by mail2.magma.ca (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA05307; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 13:27:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901311827.NAA05307@mail2.magma.ca> X-Sender: stephen@mail.magma.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 13:25:56 -0500 To: Caaradrbl@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Stephen Thwaites Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulation ratio walls/roof (windows) In-Reply-To: <4d978b1c.36b4532b@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 07:57 AM 1/31/99 -0500, Caaradrbl@aol.com wrote: For my part I also chose >Pella windows without insulated glass and instead used their "classic" window >with a removable low E double glazing. The specs were comparable to the I.G. >glass. The window I have today will be the same window in 100 years >(assuming low E coatings don't lose their efficacy). They are much cheaper to >repair as well since there are just two ordinary panes of glass, one of which >has a coating. Look at repair costs when purchasing windows, it's frightening >at times. One of the prices of "technological advances" is the need for specialized knowledge to repair these more advanced devices. This is especially true of clad wood windows. Most manufacturers are secumbing to price pressure and simplifying their product to compete w/ lower priced vinyl. In simplifying their designs, they often make glass replacement impossible, forcing customers to replace entire sashes rather than just the glass. Other times sales people convince customers than sash replacement is the only way to replace glass, despite the fact that this is simply not true. Rick is absolutely right. Windows are expensive enough, they should last much longer than the sealed glass in them. There's no point in buying a window that can't be reglazed. Its like buying a lamp with a light bulb that can't be changed! Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ltd Ottawa Canada (613) 225-1101 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 31 14:36:46 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA22626 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:36:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA17100; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:30:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:25:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA16660 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:25:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from cascade.pacificrim.net (root@cascade.pacificrim.net [199.236.224.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA16656 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:25:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from pacificrim.net (ppp110.whatcom.pacificrim.net [199.236.227.110]) by cascade.pacificrim.net (8.8.7/8.8.3) with ESMTP id LAA32398 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:26:56 -0800 Message-ID: <36B4B01F.AA62F6D@pacificrim.net> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 11:33:51 -0800 From: Rick Dubrow X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Green Building Subject: GBlist: Advanced framing- eliminating trimmers under headers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Although we have initiated many advanced framing techniques to eliminate structurally unnecessary framing in our residential remodeling work, we are hesitant in one regard, and I'm seeking feedback from those of you that may have tried this or other such techniques. I'll first share the technique and then our concern. TECHNIQUE: in a bearing exterior wall, eliminate the trimmer adjacent to a king stud by letting in, or notching the top of the king stud, to accept a 'sandwich' header made as follows: a pair of 2" x __'s" sandwiching a piece of rigid 2-1/2" thick insulation. The length of the piece of rigid is the distance between the kings; the header 2x is this same length plus 3". Is this clear? To make sure we're on the same page, here's a not-to-scale cross section of the resultant top of the notched king stud: ****** * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ******* ******* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * I've seen this technique described in many sources re: Advanced Framing and Optimal Value Engineering (OVE) but have seen no field reports. CONCERN: The notched king stud adjacent to the header would only have 2-1/2" of depth left in the middle. The obvious concern....... with no trimmer, this notched king stud is bearing the load of the header. Not much slop for a bad stick or a sloppy carpenter. We'd love to utilize this technique, since at every opening we'd eliminate a pair of trimmers, but we're concerned. Help !!$#!@!$!@!$#@!$#@$ And please, if my description of the technique is poor, and you're lost, tell me so that I can clean up the description and get you on the same page. Thanking you in advance....... .............. ............... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 31 15:52:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA24107 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:52:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20526; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:46:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:41:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA19728 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:40:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19717 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:40:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.102.72]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA27837 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 20:47:43 +0000 Message-ID: <36B466DF.F71AC1C6@which.net> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 14:21:20 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Heat recovery ventilators X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Someone recently stated there are arguments against HRVs and since I am considering installing one I wondered if anyone could advise the non cost downside. Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 31 15:53:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA24122 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:53:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20736; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:48:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:42:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA19828 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:42:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19819; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:42:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-28-113.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.133.113]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA12604; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:43:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:49:02 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE4D31.39A7FF40.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net'" , "strawbale@crest.org" Cc: "coblist@deatech.com" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: RE: evaluating road gravel slab Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:13:27 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Saturday, January 30, 1999 11:34 PM, Keith Breuker [SMTP:flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net] wrote: > I'm looking for three or four temperature sensors that I could bury at > Does anyone have knowledge of such things that could make a > recomendation? I don't want to spend much if it can be avoided. I would recommend a precison 10k ohm thermistor. These can be measured with a standard multimeter and sensor leads made of normal light gauge telephone wire work fine. Such thermistors can be pruchased for a couple of dollars at an electronics supply house. The tough part is to plot the curve of resistance vs temperature. If you buy expensive ones, this curve is provided. If you buy cheap ones, you make the curve by measuring the resistance at, say, 0 (in ice bath), 10 C, 20 C etc. You can decide yourself how much time vs how much money you wish to invest. Use shrinkwrap tubing around all your underground connections to avoid corrosion. ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 31 15:54:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA24133 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:54:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA20784; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:48:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:43:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA19907 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19880 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:42:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-28-113.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.133.113]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA12774; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:43:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:49:23 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE4D31.463A1360.jfstraube@golden.net> From: John Straube Reply-To: "jfstraube@golden.net" To: "'Debbie Yates'" , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: RE: GBlist: Insulation ratio walls/roof Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 15:41:11 -0500 Organization: Building Envelope Engineering X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Sunday, January 31, 1999 11:47 AM, Debbie Yates [SMTP:dyates@cyberus.ca] wrote: > In my very rudimentary building science class at architecture school we were > told that there was some convection within batt insulation itself. Since Batts are designed so that the amount of air circulation has almost no effect on their R-value. Hence, the R-value of a batt is the same regardless of its orientation. If air ciculation does occur, due to installation flaws, penetrations, etc., the reduction is the same regardless of wehter it is in the floor or ceiling. However, if the flaw is in the wall, it depends on the type of flaw whether it is worse than in a ceiling. These musings are all not that relevant to the amount of insulation in an attic. R40 is required by codes simply because it is cheap and easy to apply, with a bit of nod toward summer solar gains. The likelihood of flaws in insulation has not come into play yet (although maybe it should) ------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 31 16:54:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA25105 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:54:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA23910; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:48:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:42:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA23554 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:42:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA23547 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip16.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.35]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA127 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:44:42 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990131165039.007a9850@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 16:50:39 -0500 To: Greenbuilding From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Heat recovery ventilators In-Reply-To: <36B466DF.F71AC1C6@which.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 02:21 PM 1/31/99 +0000, malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: >Someone recently stated there are arguments against HRVs and since I am >considering installing one I wondered if anyone could advise the non >cost downside. >Malcolm Scott Malcolm: The short list of HRV concerns: 1. Pressure imbalances -- depressurization can drag in soil gas and can cause backdrafting of vented combustion appliances, positive pressure can drive water vapor into wall cavities. Even if I lived in an area known to be radon-free, I wouldn't want the excess mositure and mold problems that come with soil gas entry. 2. Site-specific installation factors -- siting intake/exhaust can be de-optimized by aesthetics. Common problems here include siting the intake in a persistent wind shadow. Don't get fooled by the "prevailing wind" arguments, by the way. wind roses for most areas show an astonishingly small percentage from, say, the Northwest. And except when severely confined by terrain, will blow from just about every direction. If there's a source to be avoided this can cause problems. That's why I mentioned aesthetics... some would want to hide the intake near a favorite parking spot, for example. 3. Maintenance -- The HRV is yet another thing to be cleaned out on a regular basis, and there's at least one fan motor to burn out. Most homeowners want a "fire-and-forget" system. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 31 19:10:22 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA27001 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:10:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00458; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:01:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:56:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA00080 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:56:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00075 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:56:00 -0500 (EST) From: Gaea2001@aol.com Received: from Gaea2001@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id ARLGa20321 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:56:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 18:56:53 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Kich'n Komposter Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Joneca Corporation just introduced a new product to make home composting easier and more sanitary. The Kich'n Komposter attaches to the garbage disposer and separates out and dewaters food waste. Initial reactions are VERY enthusiastic with home gardeners. Contact the manufacturers representative, Gaea Enterprises, for more information or check out Joneca's website: Contact: Darlene Snow Gaea Enterprises P.O. Box 480643 Los Angeles, CA 90048 323-525-1879 323-934-2987 (fax) gaea2001@aol.com www.joneca.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 31 19:36:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA27279 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:36:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01609; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:31:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:25:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01271 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:25:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01267 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:25:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from breakout.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@breakout.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.81]) by berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id TAA20705 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by breakout.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with ESMTP id TAA11434 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:27:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:27:11 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@breakout.rs.itd.umich.edu To: Greenbuilding List Subject: Re: GBlist: Kich'n Komposter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 31 Jan 1999 Gaea2001@aol.com wrote: > Joneca Corporation just introduced a new product to make home composting > easier and more sanitary. The Kich'n Komposter attaches to the garbage > disposer and separates out and dewaters food waste. Initial reactions are VERY > enthusiastic with home gardeners. Contact the manufacturers representative, > Gaea Enterprises, for more information or check out Joneca's website: > Looks like another great example of lurking people into using even more technology to "fix" problems introduced by inappropriate use of technology in the first place (I'm talking about the garbage disposer). Sorry for my tone, but I'm really sick of those corporate PR people that tell citizens half-truths, simply to turn them into consumers. Or what else can be the purpose of the following statement from Joneca's homepage: "Food waste recycled by the Kich'n Komposter has been tested by Cornell University and revealed a 2% nitrogen content, considerably higher than that found in other organic fertilizers." What ever happened to "direct" composting? What do you think? Thanks. Best, Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greening-of-Dana homepage http://www.snre.umich.edu/greendana -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Reppe e-mail: reppe@umich.edu National Pollution Prevention Center phone : 734-936-2542 University of Michigan fax : 734-647-5841 430 E. University Ann Arbor, MI http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub 48109-1115 U.S.A. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reppe -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 31 23:35:34 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA29933 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:35:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA12157; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:29:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:24:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11774 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:23:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11770 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:23:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.61] (rkd037.acadia.net [208.244.128.61]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA28280 for ; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:25:16 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 23:23:56 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Advanced framing- eliminating trimmers under headers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear Rick, Why not eliminate the trimmer, leave the king studs intact, and use a "header hanger", such as made by Simpson Strong-Tie and their competitors? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 01:17:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA01383 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:17:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA20379; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:05:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA19830 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:05:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from gw.crest.net (zach@gw.crest.net [209.209.0.33]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA19826; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 01:05:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (zach@localhost) by gw.crest.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA06231; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:14:02 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: gw.crest.net: zach owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 22:14:02 -0800 (PST) From: Zach Nobel X-Sender: zach@gw.crest.net To: strawbale@crest.org, pvusers@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Notice: Two CREST job positions available. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi folks, This is just a short note to spread the word that we're looking for two new people to hire for Internet Services here at CREST. We're trying to spread the word as quickly as possible as we've set February 12th as the final date for submissions of resumes. The two positions are: - Internet Associate (primarily HTML programmer & answering of general queries pertaining to CREST Internet content). http://solstice.crest.org/htmljob.shtml - Network Systems Administrator ( Duties will include general server hardware and software maintenance, as well as helping to design new Internet Services for the CREST website). http://solstice.crest.org/techjob.shtml Please pass the word to anyone you can think of that might be interested in the position! Thank You! Zachariah Nobel -- _________ Zachariah Nobel, Internet Services Manager Center for Renewable Energy and Sustainable Technology (CREST) 1 (510) 588-5604 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 08:59:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA05167 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 08:59:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04375; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 08:53:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 08:49:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04025 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 08:49:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04021 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 08:49:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 08:51:08 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E4ED@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: Energy Effiicient Office Updates Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 08:51:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Try EPA's Greenlights program. http://www.epa.gov/greenlights/ (Or Tel: (202) 564-9190 Toll Free: (888) STAR-YES) Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: John Straube [mailto:jfstraube@golden.net] > Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 5:14 PM > To: 'greenbuilding@crest.org' > Subject: GBlist: Re: Energy Effiicient Office Updates > > > I need some information about previous field studies done to > compare the > energy consumption of an office building before and after > energy-saving > retrofits. The idea is to get an idea of what measures are > effective in > what types of climates and buildings, and to eventually rank them. > > Any references to literature and internet sources would be much > appreciated. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube > Building Envelope Engineering Building Engineering Group > 165 Albert St University of Waterloo > Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. > Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 > Phone: 519 741 7920 519 888 4567 > Fax: 519 885 5193 519 888 6197 > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 09:36:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA05551 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:36:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06404; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:30:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:26:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05970 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05966 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:25:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from apple.babb.com by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id DS079NVC; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:28:59 -0500 Received: by apple.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BE4DC4.29B96FE0@apple.babb.com>; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:20:52 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE4DC4.29B96FE0@apple.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'GBLIST'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Kich'n Komposter Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:20:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA05967 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Our local wild animals seem to like whole foods a lot. We just chunk the compost into the bushes behind our house. We live in an area where the forested areas are rapidly diminishing due to the rapid growth of subdivisions... so we need to feed the critters. If we lived in a city I guess we might consider something like the Kich'n Komposter. I guess you might want to do something more sanitary with your leftovers if there is a high population and no outdoor wildish areas to toss it... or no garden to put it in. It seems that technology breeds technology, Peter! The more you have, the more it seems you need.... Jillanna Babb-Cheshul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 10:09:52 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06176 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:09:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08628; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:04:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:59:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA08208 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:59:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (root@kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08203 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 09:59:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.44 (pm1-12.hoosier.net [206.106.67.44]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26388; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:01:00 -0500 Message-ID: <36B57B57.50FC@bloomington.in.us> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 10:00:56 +0000 From: John Bower Reply-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "malcolm.scott@which.net" CC: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Heat recovery ventilators References: <36B466DF.F71AC1C6@which.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: > > Someone recently stated there are arguments against HRVs and since I am > considering installing one I wondered if anyone could advise the non > cost downside. > Malcolm Scott __________ In general, HRVs are nice pieces of equipment. In fact, I have installed one in my own house, and in other houses I've built. The big drawback is cost. They cost more to install. While they can save you some money in operationg costs, they are not cost effective in many climates in the U.S. Ventilation can be accomplished by various methods. If heat recovery will save money in the long run, then use it. If not, another approach can ventilate just as well. We would all spend an extra $100 to double the gas mileage in our car, but few of us would see the logic in spending $20,000 to double the gas mileage. That money could be spent more effectively elsewhere. Ventilation is mandatory. Heat recovery is optional. For more, see my book "Understanding Ventilation." (web site below) -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 10:23:15 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA06430 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:23:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09923; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:13:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09465 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:13:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09457 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:13:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca (be417@freenet3 [134.117.136.23]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id KAA09742; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:14:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id KAA12150; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:14:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:14:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902011514.KAA12150@freenet3.carleton.ca> From: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Advanced framing-eliminating trimmers under headers Cc: rdubrow1@pacificrim.net Reply-To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk on Sun, 31 Jan 1999 Rick Dubrow wrote: [snipped & pasted] >TECHNIQUE: in a bearing exterior wall, eliminate the trimmer adjacent >to a king stud by letting in, or notching the top of the king stud, to >accept a 'sandwich' header made as follows: a pair of 2" x __'s" >sandwiching a piece of rigid 2-1/2" thick insulation. Hello Rick and Notch-Heads; I agree with David Holland that sheet metal framing connectors would be a better strategy than the notching. However, I think that it should be mentioned that two pieces of 2x## lumber spaced apart by a layer of foam will not have the same resistance to bending as 2 pieces that are laminated together. (It might be better if the foam were glued to the lumber) This would not be a concern with in-line framing over narrow windows but it might be on larger ones, especially if live loads are significant. Another strategy might be to design the lintels as plywood web box beams, with the result that less lumber is used, the lumber is placed where it will do the most good and the resulting cavity is larger, allowing more room for insulation... and the insulation could be Roxul or somesuch instead of plastic foam. ---------- * ---------- Rob_Tom @ ncf.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 11:15:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA07952 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:15:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14423; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:10:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:05:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13953 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:05:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13949 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:05:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.253.25.45] (208.253.25.45) by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 08:15:20 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: Heat recovery ventilators Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 08:12:28 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1294236778-1339465@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk If you'd like to quickly estimate the amount of energy used to ventilate without heat recovery, take a look at a worksheet that we published a few years back. It's now in Energy Source Builder archives: http://www.oikos.com/esb/50/ventilation.html Bruce S > >In general, HRVs are nice pieces of equipment. In fact, I have installed >one in my own house, and in other houses I've built. The big drawback is >cost. They cost more to install. While they can save you some money in >operationg costs, they are not cost effective in many climates in the >U.S. Ventilation can be accomplished by various methods. If heat >recovery will save money in the long run, then use it. If not, another >approach can ventilate just as well. ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 12:00:26 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08840 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:00:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18475; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:54:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:50:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA17831 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:50:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA17811 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:50:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from fox (tmanney@fox.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.11]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1/mailhub+tar) with ESMTP id KAA13140; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:51:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost by fox (8.8.8+Sun/1.34) id KAA11516; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:51:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:51:09 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Manney X-Sender: tmanney@fox.ksu.ksu.edu To: Jillanna Babb cc: "'GBLIST'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Kich'n Komposter In-Reply-To: <01BE4DC4.29B96FE0@apple.babb.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk But you can't beat chickens for turning you kitchen scraps into fresh eggs, meat and high-nitrogen fertilizer. Tom Manney tmanney@ksu.edu Dept. of Physics & Division of Biology Kansas State University GENE Web site: http://www.phys.ksu.edu/gene ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 12:02:36 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA08882 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:02:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18799; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:52:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18075 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:52:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18066 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:52:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA05802 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:53:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-wa51-55.ix.netcom.com(207.220.40.183) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma005659; Mon Feb 1 10:52:19 1999 Message-ID: <001401be4dbf$d6136480$b728dccf@upesi> From: "Russel DeLombard" To: "Green Building" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Advanced framing-eliminating trimmers under headers Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 08:49:51 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01BE4DBF.D47B5F60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BE4DBF.D47B5F60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 01 Feb 1999 Rob_Tom @ ncf.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada writes (in = part): >Another strategy might be to design the lintels as plywood web box >beams, with the result that less lumber is used, the lumber is placed >where it will do the most good and the resulting cavity is larger, >allowing more room for insulation... and the insulation could be >Roxul or somesuch instead of plastic foam. Good suggestion! Also...prefabricated headers consisting of 2x top & = bottom plates faced with plywood of LVL and a EPS (expanded polystyrene) core = are available locally here (US Pacific Northwest). They are 11 1/4" in = height to match 2x12's with widths to match 2x4, 2x6 and 2x8 walls. Don't know about the availability or cost at the original posters = location, but they save a lot of time and trouble over field fabricating box = beams. They provide more insulation than a 2x sandwich since the faces are only about 3/4" each side. They have load tables for predictable structural results and are dimensionally consistent. They are typically made by SIP (structural insulated panel) = manufacturers. A sample description and load tables can be seen at http://www.pbspanel.com/panel.html (Insul-Beam). (I'm a user and have = no commercial relationship with PBS.) Russel DeLombard, Architect Avatar Construction Inc. (Design/Build) Bainbridge Island WA ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BE4DBF.D47B5F60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 01 Feb 1999 Rob_Tom @ ncf.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada writes (in=20 part):

>Another strategy might be to design the lintels as = plywood web=20 box
>beams, with the result that less lumber is used, the lumber = is=20 placed
>where it will do the most good and the resulting cavity is = larger,
>allowing more room for insulation... and the insulation = could=20 be
>Roxul or somesuch instead of plastic foam.

Good=20 suggestion!  Also...prefabricated headers consisting of 2x top = &=20 bottom
plates faced with plywood of LVL and a EPS (expanded = polystyrene) core=20 are
available locally here (US Pacific Northwest).  They are 11=20 1/4" in height
to match 2x12's with widths to match 2x4, 2x6 and = 2x8=20 walls.

Don't know about the availability or cost at the original = posters=20 location,
but they save a lot of time and trouble over field = fabricating box=20 beams.
They provide more insulation than a 2x sandwich since the = faces are=20 only
about 3/4" each side.  They have load tables for = predictable=20 structural
results and are dimensionally consistent.

They are=20 typically made by SIP (structural insulated panel) manufacturers.
A = sample=20 description and load tables can be seen at
http://www.pbspanel.com/panel= .html=20 (Insul-Beam).  (I'm a user and have no
commercial relationship = with=20 PBS.)

Russel DeLombard, Architect <rus_d@ix.netcom.com>
Avatar= =20 Construction Inc. (Design/Build)
Bainbridge Island = WA
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BE4DBF.D47B5F60-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 12:13:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA09281 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:13:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19826; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:03:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19370 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.monumental.com (mail1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19366 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:03:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by mail1.monumental.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA27777 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 11:58:34 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mnsinc.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:01:58 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: Feeding wild animals with our trash Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk 990201 Most vets & wildlife biologists will caution you that feeding human food of most any type to them is a bad idea for various reasons. In addition you might give them a taste for garbage that would lead them to get into scrapes with less tolerant parts of civilization over dumpsters & trash cans. Good intentions, yes, but as a rural-dwelling citizen, I urge you to consider the big picture. Now if they would just eat my lily pads... :-> jh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 15:03:55 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13682 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:03:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03402; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:58:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:53:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA02992 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:53:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02988 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:53:32 -0500 (EST) From: Gaea2001@aol.com Received: from Gaea2001@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id DQVBa04329 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:50:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1ebfedda.36b6059a@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:50:50 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Harris Directory Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Has anyone heard of the Harris Directory? Know how to get in touch with them? website or phone number? It's suppose to be a green products directory, but I can't locate it anywhere. Thanks, Darlene Snow Gaea Enteprises gaea2001@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 15:20:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14073 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:19:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04641; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:14:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:09:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04125 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04115 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:09:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-10.netmeg.net [208.139.83.73]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA03041; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:10:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36B60A6D.4A154823@swinter.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 15:11:25 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gaea2001@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Harris Directory References: <1ebfedda.36b6059a@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk They are Stafford Harris in seattle area, I believe Chris Stafford is still President of the NW Eco-Building Guild, who has a web site. See http://home.earthlink.net/~dlombard for NW Eco-Building Guild under Conferences. Debra Lombard dlombard@earthlink.net Gaea2001@aol.com wrote: > Has anyone heard of the Harris Directory? Know how to get in touch with them? > website or phone number? It's suppose to be a green products directory, but I > can't locate it anywhere. > > Thanks, > Darlene Snow > Gaea Enteprises > gaea2001@aol.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 15:23:31 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14142 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:23:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04985; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:17:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:13:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04543 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:13:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from webservera.4dvision.com (webservera.4dvision.com [205.238.96.140] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04533 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:13:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.181.77.225] by webservera.dtg-inc.com (NTMail 3.03.0017/1.akjv) with ESMTP id ta165249 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:13:56 -0700 Reply-To: From: "Scott Beckman" To: Subject: FW: GBlist: Harris Directory Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:13:47 -0700 Message-ID: <000101be4e1f$6278f700$0b00a8c0@mycomputer.ducomm.du.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Darlene, Here is a bit more information that may be helpful: Harris, B.J. (1993). The Harris Directory. Stafford-Harris, Seattle, WA. I have not personally seen this directory but it is supposed to contain information on products having recycled content. Hope that helps! Scott ________________________________ Scott Beckman Talisman Partners, Ltd. 5460 South Quebec St., Suite 100 Englewood, CO 80111-1916 Direct: 303-224-6761 Phone: 303-771-3103 Fax: 303-771-3194 sbeckman@talpart.com http://www.talpart.com _______________________________ -----Original Message----- From: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org [mailto:owner-greenbuilding@crest.org] On Behalf Of Gaea2001@aol.com Sent: Monday, February 01, 1999 12:51 PM To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Harris Directory Has anyone heard of the Harris Directory? Know how to get in touch with them? website or phone number? It's suppose to be a green products directory, but I can't locate it anywhere. Thanks, Darlene Snow Gaea Enteprises gaea2001@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 15:41:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14435 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:41:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06824; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:35:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:31:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05819 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:31:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from irisinc.com (oak.irisinc.com [206.100.174.196]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05813 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:31:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.253.25.152] (208.253.25.152) by irisinc.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:41:01 -0800 Subject: Re: FW: GBlist: Harris Directory Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 12:37:32 -0000 x-sender: sullivan%oikos.com@irisinc.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <1294220836-2298429@irisinc.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk BJ moved to New Mexico a couple of years ago. Her current address is: The Harris Reports 1583 Pacheco St., No. 125 Santa Fe, NM 87505 Prepare yourself for shameless self-promotion: You can also locate companies that make recycled content building materials in the free, online REDI database at . Bruce S >Here is a bit more information that may be helpful: >Harris, B.J. (1993). The Harris Directory. Stafford-Harris, Seattle, WA. > >I have not personally seen this directory but it is supposed to contain >information on products having recycled content. ------------------------------------------------------------ Bruce Sullivan sullivan@oikos.com Iris Communications, Inc. 541-767-0355 Oikos: Green Building Source www.oikos.com -----------------1,800 Green Building Products-------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 17:22:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA17667 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:22:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18056; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:16:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:11:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA17023 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:10:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from am-dew.nevada.edu (am-dew.nevada.edu [131.216.1.249]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA16968; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:10:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from nevada.edu (s4-ppp9.nevada.edu [131.216.253.157]) by am-dew.nevada.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13788; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:11:46 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36B6270B.8813A236@nevada.edu> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 14:13:36 -0800 From: Allie Smith Reply-To: smitha2@nevada.edu Organization: Citizen Alert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Non-toxic paints Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Can anyone recommend interior wall paint that would have the least harmful effects on the environment (and me!) during both the production and application processes? Perhaps someone out there is familiar with certain non-toxic brands so that I don't have to take the manufacturer's word alone that it's a "safe" product. Thanks! Allie Smith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 19:32:15 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA19711 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:32:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29031; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:26:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:20:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA27487 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:20:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA27477 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:20:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.27] (ka4-27.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.27]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.9.1+DND/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA02003; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:21:25 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4d978b1c.36b4532b@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 08:48:14 -0500 To: Caaradrbl@aol.com, Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulation ratio walls/roof Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAA27484 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Sgrìobh Caaradrbl@aol.com: > For my part I also chose Pella windows without insulated glass and > instead used their "classic" window with a removable low E double > glazing. The specs were comparable to the I.G. glass. The window I > have today will be the same window in 100 years (assuming low E > coatings don't lose their efficacy). They are much cheaper to repair > as well since there are just two ordinary panes of glass, one of > which has a coating. Look at repair costs when purchasing windows, > it's frightening at times. Now this is an interesting possibility. I'm looking at windows right now. Can you tell me what equivalent R-value you got from your windows? Each pane can be individually removed? What do you do about sealing the window, or is that not an issue? Doesn't moisture get in and condense? Questions, questions... -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 20:08:55 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA20229 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:08:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA02231; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:02:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:58:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01845 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:58:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01840 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:58:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from reg-53-0135.direct.ca ([216.66.142.35] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 107UBt-0001Fp-00; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:59:46 -0800 Message-ID: <36B64D8C.972DA4D0@direct.ca> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 16:57:48 -0800 From: Richard Kadulski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-SYMPA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: herector@paltech.com, malcolm.scott@which.net Subject: GBlist: Heat recovery ventilators References: <199902010700.CAA21964@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > At 02:21 PM 1/31/99 +0000, malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: > >Someone recently stated there are arguments against HRVs and since I am > >considering installing one I wondered if anyone could advise the non > >cost downside. > >Malcolm Scott > > The short list of HRV concerns: > > 1. Pressure imbalances -- depressurization can drag in soil gas and can > cause backdrafting of vented combustion appliances, positive pressure can > drive water vapor into wall cavities. Even if I lived in an area known to > be radon-free, I wouldn't want the excess mositure and mold problems that > come with soil gas entry. > This is purely a matter of installation quality. Properly installed equipment will be balanced. Surely you aren't going to make a decision on the assumption it will be poorly installed? In the event there is an imbalance, the amount will not generally be enough to create pressure imbalances big enough to be a major concern. The intent of the HRV is that it provides balanced flows. Even if it is 20 or 30 cfm out of balance (which is a fair bit) that should not be enough to put the house in severe negative pressure (unless it is an extremely airtight, very tiny house). An average sized leaky house, in the right climate and weather circumstances, can generate negative pressures big enough to be a concern for soil gasses, etc. You don't need fans to do it for you! > 2. Site-specific installation factors -- siting intake/exhaust can be > de-optimized by aesthetics. Common problems here include siting the intake > in a persistent wind shadow. Don't get fooled by the "prevailing wind" > arguments, by the way. wind roses for most areas show an astonishingly > small percentage from, say, the Northwest. And except when severely > confined by terrain, will blow from just about every direction. If there's > a source to be avoided this can cause problems. That's why I mentioned > aesthetics... some would want to hide the intake near a favorite parking > spot, for example. > Aesthetics are a concern, but then you normally don't have to put service outlets in the most prominent position. Usually, there are many places for placement of services in a house. HRV inlets have to be treated as another necessary service outlet on the house. Depending on the location of the unit, the vents can be placed high or low on the wall, etc. The only thing to remember is that the inlet vent requires cleaning once or twice a year, as leaves, cobwebs, etc. will plug up the insect screen, so they should be placed for easy access. We've not seen the placement of the HRV intake/exhaust as being a big issue - especially if both are placed on the same side of the house (spaced at least six feet apart of course). > 3. Maintenance -- The HRV is yet another thing to be cleaned out on a > regular basis, and there's at least one fan motor to burn out. Most > homeowners want a "fire-and-forget" system. > Unfortunately, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A NO MAINTENANCE HOUSE! Some maintenance ALWAYS has to be done. We've found that once homeowners have the experience of continuous fresh air, they will be sensitized when something goes wrong. They will do the service that may be needed (like cleaning the filters). When you're used to clean air, you'd be surprised how sensitized your nose becomes when the fresh air exchange is significantly reduced or stopped. As for the burned out motors - yes they will eventually. However, manufacturers are using good quality components (at least the Canadian manufacturers, who've had a track record for more than 15 years) that will last a long time. The bottom line for the HRV is that it provides fresh air, and addresses indoor air quality concerns. There is a cost to it, but then what is the cost of an unhealthy environment? Remember - the HRV is there simply as a tool that provides a balanced air exchange for the house. -- Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver, BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax 604-689-11841 Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design Editor Solplan Review: the independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 20:55:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA20732 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:55:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA06121; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:46:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:42:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA05013 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:41:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA05006 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:41:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id TAA09125 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:42:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-wa38-24.ix.netcom.com(207.220.43.152) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma009033; Mon Feb 1 19:42:16 1999 Message-ID: <001001be4e09$dd3f06c0$982bdccf@upesi> From: "Russel DeLombard" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: Drop Cathedral Insulation? Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:39:46 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On 01 Feb 1999 Speireag Alden writes (in part): > I'm planning to screw ship-lapped 1-by pine boards to the rafters >as visible ceiling material. Now, if I could figure out how to affix >those to the rafters *while leaving a three-inch space below the >rafters*, I could put up another layer of insulation *and* eliminate >the thermal bridging of the rafters, to some extent. > > So here's the question: how do I do that? Long screws? :) Is >there a better way? Speireag, SIP (structural insulated panel) manufacturers use long screws to fasten their panels to framing...such as to a timber frame. They are sized to the thickness of the panels which typically range from 4 1/2" to 12 1/4" thick with corresponding screw lengths 1 - 11/2" longer. They are like oversized square drive drywall screws. The heads are rather large (9/16" diameter on a 3/16" x 12" screw I have here) to prevent pulling through the panels, but thin, like a washer. If they were regularly spaced or countersunk with the holes filled with plugs the appearance shouldn't be a problem. Another possiblity would be to use "nail base" panels for the additional insulation. They are like SIPs except with a face on one side only. They are designed to provide insulation and a nailable surface for roofing when applied over structural roof sheathing. You could screw those up for the additional insulation and then nail your ship lap finish directly to the face of the panels without regard to the framing, shimming to an even plane etc. You could probably also then get away with 3/8" or 1/2" thick tongue and groove material for the ceiling (often used for wainscoting or porch ceilings). That should help make up for the cost of the panels. Or...apply 1/2"x fir (or other wood) battens over the joints and screws of the insulated panels with addtional battens as desired for a panelled "effect" and paint (or varnish) the whole business and forgoe the ship lap material altogether. You could probably get screws from any SIP manufacturer by mail or parcel service. A panel manufacturer local to me is PBS (Premier Building Systems) with other locations in the US west and midwest. They can be contacted at (800)275-7086 or at http://www.pbspanel.com/panel.html (and as in my last post...I'm a user and have no commercial relationship with PBS). Russel DeLombard, Architect Avatar Construction Inc. Box 11257 Bainbridge Island WA 98110 (206) 842-9350 Phone/FAX ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 21:25:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA21162 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:25:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08629; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:19:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:15:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08289 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:15:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix2.interkan.net (root@unix2.interkan.net [12.13.79.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08285 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:15:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from interkan.net (pm3-mhk65.interkan.net [12.13.79.95]) by unix2.interkan.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/jpw@interkan.net) with ESMTP id UAA15221; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 20:16:34 -0600 Message-ID: <36B4A9CB.4BBCB5@interkan.net> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 13:06:52 -0600 From: Tamara & Bill Dorsett Reply-To: dorsett@interkan.net Organization: Health Options X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Metal or Fiberglass ductwork? References: <36A09771.2831@cyberzone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dan, I've used insulated plastic flexduct but am of the understanding that it has a very high resistance to air flow even stretched tight. Much of the fiberglass ductboard is now coated so fg bits in the air stream are less of a problem than before, however it still needs to be cut and jointed leaving cut edges. At this point I would use metal ductwork being careful to use sealants at each joint. PS thank for sending the off-list postings on fireplace combustion air. Dan and Pam wrote: > Has anyone looked at the pros and cons of ductwork, esp. in a > residential setting? Metal duct is recyclable in the long term, but > still has to be insulated with (presumably) fiberglass and a vapor > barrier, and we've discussed fiberglass in the past. Fiberglass duct, > is, well, fiberglass. Knowing almost nothing about these ducts, is > there an issue of fiberglass bits getting in the airstream? Are there > thermal or air-sealing issues separating the two types? Typically, > metal supply ducts are insulated and returns are not. With fiberglass > ducts, is there an overall system benefit since all the ducts are > insulated? > Any other issues that come to mind are also appreciated. > Regards, > Dan Harazim > Canterbury, CT > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 21:34:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA21302 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:34:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09548; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:28:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:24:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA09037 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:23:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09032 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:23:55 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ628050; Mon, 1 Feb 99 19:24:50 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA38384; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:23:56 -0700 Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:23:55 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Tamara & Bill Dorsett Cc: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Metal or Fiberglass ductwork? In-Reply-To: <36B4A9CB.4BBCB5@interkan.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dorsetts: Further to the above topic this has been discussed at some length in the IAQ listserver. Jorg Ostrowski ____________________________________________________________________ You said: Dan, I've used insulated plastic flexduct but am of the understanding that it has a very high resistance to air flow even stretched tight. Much of the fiberglass ductboard is now coated so fg bits in the air stream are less of a problem than before, however it still needs to be cut and jointed leaving cut edges. At this point I would use metal ductwork being careful to use sealants at each joint. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 22:14:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA21781 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:14:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12040; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:08:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:04:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA11706 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:04:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA11702 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:04:38 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id NNUa001440; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:00:38 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:00:38 EST To: Gaea2001@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Harris Directory Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk You can reach B.J. Harris at the following number and address while she is away from her usual location on a project. B.J. Harris 1583 Pacheco Street Santa Fe, NM 87505 888-844-0337 bjharris@igc.apc.org www.harrisdirectory.com "The Harris Directory," is an electronic database for PC or Macintosh on disk. Also she publishes a small booklet, "On Behalf of the Planet." Resources for waste management, resource planning, database for recycled and pollution- preventing building materials David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone: 510-841-1039 fax: 510-841-1008 iaqkibbey@aol.com In a message dated 2/1/1999 11:56:46 AM, Gaea2001@aol.com writes: >Has anyone heard of the Harris Directory? Know how to get in touch with >them? >website or phone number? It's suppose to be a green products directory, >but I >can't locate it anywhere. > >Thanks, >Darlene Snow >Gaea Enteprises >gaea2001@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 1 22:28:46 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA22241 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:28:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA13011; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:22:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:19:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA12504 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:18:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12499 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:18:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.62] (rkd038.acadia.net [208.244.128.62]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA03457 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:20:11 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 22:18:51 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Drop Cathedral Insulation? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk quote: > I'm planning to screw ship-lapped 1-by pine boards to the rafters >as visible ceiling material. Now, if I could figure out how to affix >those to the rafters *while leaving a three-inch space below the >rafters*, I could put up another layer of insulation *and* eliminate >the thermal bridging of the rafters, to some extent. > > So here's the question: how do I do that? Long screws? :) Is >there a better way?... end of quote. Speireag, you could make a "ladder" starting with your existing rafters. Make some plywood or 1-by cleats, and screw them at 16 inches on center to the side of your existing rafters so they hang 3 inches below. Then rip some 2 by 2 stock and screw the stock to the cleats. When insulating, try to get the mineral wool to fill the 1-1/2" gap between the existing rafters and the 2 by 2's - this will help with thermal bridging. If you really want the assemble to be strong, use wood glue along with the screws. Since boards can get gap-py and leaky, compared to drywall, it would probably be a good idea to have a good air barrier beneath the insulation before you put on your finish ceiling. Good luck. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 00:49:04 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA24084 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:49:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA20132; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:38:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19708 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:38:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19704 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:38:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (ts02-ip20.hevanet.com [206.163.60.46]) by hevanet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA27171; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:40:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36B68F7A.A6F7071A@hevanet.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 21:39:26 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "malcolm.scott@which.net" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Heat recovery ventilators References: <36B466DF.F71AC1C6@which.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Malcom-- 1. There are some very high quality HRV systems such as VanEE and LifeBreath, as well as some HRV's that look cheaper, but don't have all the components for a whole system. You can save money on a unit and make it up in installation hassles. Installation should be done by someone knowledgeable (if they don't at least own a magnehelic gauge, keep looking). 2. It's easy to mess up the installation in minor yet important ways. Steve Loken has great slides of HRV air intakes located over a dog kennel and next to a dryer vent. The condensate drains can freeze if not located carefully. HRVs should be located inside heated space, but I've seen some installed in attics where freezing and maintenance are issues. Tying the supply side into furnace ductwork seems economical, but there may be an energy penalty for circulating air with the furnace blower. Complex systems that haven't been planned ahead can sometimes be installed incorrectly and then covered by drywall. 3. Homeowners need to maintain them, especially clean filters and the screens on the outdoor weather caps. Some people get confused by the controls. 4. Occupants become spoiled and no longer want to attend parties at other houses where people are smoking. ;^) Mike "malcolm.scott@which.net" wrote: > Someone recently stated there are arguments against HRVs and since I am > considering installing one I wondered if anyone could advise the non > cost downside. > Malcolm Scott > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 00:50:57 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA24102 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:50:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA20372; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:45:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:41:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA19886 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:41:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA19881 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:41:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (ts02-ip20.hevanet.com [206.163.60.46]) by hevanet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA27529 for ; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 21:42:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36B69039.84734E0F@hevanet.com> Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 21:42:39 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: RE: Heat Recovery Ventilators Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Malcom-- 1. There are some very high quality HRV systems such as VanEE and LifeBreath, as well as some HRV's that look cheaper, but don't have all the components for a whole system. You can save money on a unit and make it up in installation hassles. Installation should be done by someone knowledgeable (if they don't at least own a magnehelic gauge, keep looking). 2. It's easy to mess up the installation in minor yet important ways. Steve Loken has great slides of HRV air intakes located over a dog kennel and next to a dryer vent. The condensate drains can freeze if not located carefully. HRVs should be located inside heated space, but I've seen some installed in attics where freezing and maintenance are issues. Tying the supply side into furnace ductwork seems economical, but there may be an energy penalty for circulating air with the furnace blower. Complex systems that haven't been planned ahead can sometimes be installed incorrectly and then covered by drywall. 3. Homeowners need to maintain them, especially clean filters and the screens on the outdoor weather caps. Some people get confused by the controls. 4. Occupants become spoiled and no longer want to attend parties at other houses where people are smoking. ;^) Mike "malcolm.scott@which.net" wrote: > Someone recently stated there are arguments against HRVs and since I > am > considering installing one I wondered if anyone could advise the non > cost downside. > Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 02:29:30 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA24760 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:29:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA24713; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:23:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:19:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA24409 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:18:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from app1.netzero.net (mail.netzero.net [209.14.79.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA24405 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:18:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 15471 invoked by uid 0); 2 Feb 1999 07:11:14 -0000 Received: from pppa29-resalealbanyny1-1r1062.saturn.bbn.com (HELO martin) (4.16.124.40) by mail.netzero.net with SMTP; 2 Feb 1999 07:11:14 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990202021430.0096aa70@mail73.cwixmail.com> X-Sender: 1088njr656l7@mail73.cwixmail.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 02:14:30 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Martin Kaufman Subject: GBlist: Greenhouses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Has anyone tried incorporating a greenhouse into a house? I'd like to be able to grow stuff year round (in Vermont). Also, has anyone tried, or thought about, making an earth-bermed outdoor greenhouse? would such a greenhouse remain above freezing in Vermont winters without supplementary heat? Sorry if these questions sound silly. I'm pretty ignorant on these matters... Martin ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 05:20:53 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA25773 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 05:20:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA28834; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 05:15:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 05:10:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA28576 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 05:10:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA28572 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 05:10:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-10-129.cyberzone.net [209.150.10.129]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 04:52:42 -0500 Message-ID: <36B6FA88.1560@cyberzone.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 05:15:52 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Harazim Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: Central Vacuum Tube?] Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <36B6FA3F.1B13@cyberzone.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 05:14:39 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Harazim Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Central Vacuum Tube? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Speireag wrote: > It occurred to me a few days ago that I could provide for a > central vacuum in my small house and get significant air quality > gains. If I put a pipe through the wall in the washroom area and > stucco around it, I could get a sectioned hose for vacuuming on the > interior, which hose would reach just about everywhere (it's a small > house). When I wanted to vacuum, I could hook up a shop vacuum to > the outside of the house. That way, grit and grick and small objects > would end up in the vacuum. AND (this is the neat part) dust and > small fibers and stale air would end up outside, so that no particle > filter would be required. I wouldn't be recycling the really small > particles back into the house atmosphere. > > What think you? > > -Speireag. I think it's a brilliant idea! Having lived with a central vac in my last house, I've decided to never be without one. It's far more powerful than a hand-held unit, and I know that the little bitties (dust mites are not pretty) being sucked in won't simply get filtered and sent back into the air to resettle. Using a shop vac in a small house is also a very neat idea, since you won't have to shell out hundreds of dollars for a dedicated system, saving on costs for the unit, wiring, piping, stinky pipe cement (the cement, not the pipe), cursing after cutting yourself with a drywall saw, skinning your knuckles, contorting your arms into shapes never intended by nature, that sort of thing :-> Good Luck! Regards, Dan Harazim ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 05:40:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA25854 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 05:40:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA29663; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 05:34:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 05:30:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA29361 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 05:30:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA29356 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 05:30:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-10-129.cyberzone.net [209.150.10.129]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 05:12:18 -0500 Message-ID: <36B6FF20.ADB@cyberzone.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 05:35:28 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Harazim Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dorsett@interkan.net CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Metal or Fiberglass ductwork? References: <36A09771.2831@cyberzone.net> <36B4A9CB.4BBCB5@interkan.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > > Dan, I've used insulated plastic flexduct but am of the understanding that > it has a very high resistance to air flow even stretched tight. Much of > the fiberglass ductboard is now coated so fg bits in the air stream are > less of a problem than before, however it still needs to be cut and > jointed leaving cut edges. At this point I would use metal ductwork being > careful to use sealants at each joint. > > PS thank for sending the off-list postings on fireplace combustion air. Bill, I spoke to numerous heating people following the posts to this list, and everybody has seen and or worked with fiberglass ducts. All them recommended metal ducts for the reasons we've talked about, and I'm skeptical about linings. They say the fiberglass ducts also fall apart in time, and are fairly delicate. I just happened to luck out and get a guy who does fiberglass. Also, everyone runs ducts into the unheated attic because (all together now) "that's the way we do it". I got tired of debating with the builder and deleted the ducted system, going to the old reliable hot water baseboard. I'll add central air in the future, when costs permit, hire a guy who believes in metal ducts, and I'll cut chases and run the stuff inside the envelope where it belongs (already planned out). It turns out that the cost of doing it this way is only slightly more than the builder's "add" for going to hot air alone! Funny thing about the cost of construction :-> Regards, Dan Harazim ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 06:49:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA26200 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 06:49:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA01218; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 06:43:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 06:38:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA00956 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 06:38:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA00951 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 06:38:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-10-163.cyberzone.net [209.150.10.163]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 06:20:36 -0500 Message-ID: <36B70F07.6877@cyberzone.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 06:43:19 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Harazim Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag Alden CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Central Vacuum Tube? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk What would happen if you vented the vacuum into the compost heap (right next to the garbage disposal pipe thing)? Is there any fertilizer value to household dust, or do dust mites count as "animal products?" Just thinkin'... Dan Harazim ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 08:12:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA26839 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:12:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04301; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:07:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:02:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA03846 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:02:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03842 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:02:42 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id XHKHa06037; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:03:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6f508c06.36b6f78d@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:03:09 EST To: martinveg@bigfoot.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Greenhouses Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Martin, In the seventies, attached greenhouses were a primary prescription for saving the world among solar advocates. Lots of great resources. Rodale published a book by James C. McCullagh called "The Solar Greenhouse Book". Andy Shapiro (on this list) published a book called "Low Cost Passive Solar Greenhouses" with The National Center For Appropriate Technology. Many manufacturers sprang up to exploit a triving industry of attached greenhouse builders through the eighties. Greenhouse and sunspaces were a significant and well tracked niche in the remodeling industry for a decade. I spent most of my career in the pursuit of greenhouse grown sustainable nirvana. Today most of the greenhouse builders and manufacturers are gone. The lessons I learned: Doing it right is very expensive unless your primary consideration is a functional horticultural greenhouse and you don't care about aesthetics or controlling water related issues. Greenhouses, though very nice, are not a panacea. Most of the kits and manufactured systems really suck. Greenhouses take a flexible set of expectations about comfort, thermal performance, etc. and more maintenance than most people are willing to invest. All those concerns, including maintenance, can be overcome with a large enough budget and a designer and builder with real expertise in the field. Greenhouses tend to be a net energy loss to a building unless the building and greenhouse are designed as an integrated system by someone that really understands the issues and then is operated by the occupants in the manner intended in the design. They tend to be user intensive and aren't for everybody. Good glazing technology is a primary component of successful greenhouses that unfortunately was left out of all the early books (and ninety five percent of the sunrooms and greenhouses built). For those interested, I will be chairing a short session in June at the American Solar Energy Society conference in Portland Maine on water control in sloped glazing and flat panel installation. We'll be talking both about the technical issues and why addressing technology issues well is a key part of avoiding the boom and bust lessons of the sunroom and solar dhw industries of the seventies and eighties. Leaks, condensation, overheating, overcooling, ventilation, insulated glass seal failure and several other factors all make the appeal of attached greenhouses a less than successful reality if they are not done well. Martin, there are lots of lessons learned in the last thirty years that you should try to take advantage of rather than reinventing the wheel. By the way, the ASES conference promises to be a great one and is a good place for those of us that communicate by cyberspace to actually meet in the real world. More information from WWW.NESEA.ORG Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 08:13:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA26844 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:13:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04367; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:07:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:03:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA03913 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:03:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03909 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:03:35 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 0GHUa05309 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:04:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <47a17552.36b6f7d2@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:04:18 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Harris Directory Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I have and use the Harris Directory. David's Kibbey had the correct net address. The Harris Directory BJ Harris (the designer who developed it) has recently moved to North Carolina but her phone is still 888-844-0337. My understanding is it will become a net based service in the next few months. (It currently is on disk). The directory has several thousand products that include recycled content, products for chemically sensitive clients, etc. It is a little bulky but very useful. There is a fee but it's worth it. Along with oikos.com, Environmental Building News, and Recycling Data Management, Harris is a resource I use often and recommend it. Phil Bailey/SustainAbility Fredericksburg, Va ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 09:13:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA28146 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07579; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:07:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:03:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07216 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:03:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07210 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:03:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from europa.dreamscape.com (europa.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.147]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA04281 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:04:33 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: europa.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.147] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:04:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA12-p33.dreamscape.com [209.4.255.33]) by europa.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id JAA10650 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:04:32 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sA12-p33.dreamscape.com [209.4.255.33] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:04:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36B70532.D0E7D101@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 09:01:22 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Creative recycling Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This won't excite many of you, but the more artistic among you may find some inspiration here. This is a review of three individual artists who are using junk parts ( bicycle, computer) for their products. http://www.streettech.com/todaysTech.html Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 09:27:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA28355 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:27:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA08670; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:17:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA08243 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:17:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (root@kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA08233; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.70.2 (pm2-2.hoosier.net [206.106.70.2]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10088; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:18:57 -0500 Message-ID: <36B6C2FC.1B1B@bloomington.in.us> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 09:18:53 +0000 From: John Bower Reply-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: smitha2@nevada.edu CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Non-toxic paints References: <36B6270B.8813A236@nevada.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I've got several "less-toxic" paints listed in my book, The Healthy House. The problem with recommending just one or two is that the varoius manufacturers have different ideas as to what makes something healthy. So, the discussion takes quite a few pages. This is something that I get all the time, a simple question with a not-so-simple answer. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 09:42:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA28537 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:42:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09694; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:36:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:32:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09346 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:32:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from send105.yahoomail.com (send105.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.128]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09336 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:32:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990202143445.10276.rocketmail@send105.yahoomail.com> Received: from [131.6.72.132] by send105.yahoomail.com; Tue, 02 Feb 1999 06:34:45 PST Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 06:34:45 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Anderson Subject: GBlist: Enertia Building Systems houses To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Distinguished Listers, As a relative newcomer to the Green Building list, I come not as green builder but rather a green consumer. I have learned a great deal from the excellent and numerous contributions made by the various participants, and am constantly amazed by the quality of the ongoing exchange. I now have a couple of questions I would like to add to the discussion. In my web wanderings, I recently came across a company called Enertia Building Systems, http://enertia.com, and I was wondering if anyone has real life experience with these structures as either builder or owner. Their excellent web site describes construction methods which appear to address and/or circumvent many of the issues recently discussed on the list, such as insulation, dry wall construction (and alternatives), concrete structures, heating and cooling systems, attic ventilation, and roofing methods. They claim their houses to be environmentally sound both in construction, maintenance, heating and cooling, and longevity, all recent issues on the list. Any educated opinions or real life experience regarding this company and their product, on or off list, would be greatly appreciated. Searches of the GB list archives turned up only a few previous entries on this subject. Thanks to all in advance for your assistance. Gary Anderson _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 09:49:52 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA28719 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:49:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10257; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:44:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:40:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09878 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:39:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from oak (caroldag@oak.liii.com [198.207.193.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09868; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:39:50 -0500 (EST) From: "Carol D'Agostino" Received: by oak (8.8.6/8.8.5) id OAA12192; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:41:17 GMT Message-Id: <199902021441.OAA12192@oak> Subject: Re: GBlist: Non-toxic paints To: smitha2@nevada.edu Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:41:16 -0500 (EST) Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org In-Reply-To: <36B6270B.8813A236@nevada.edu> from "Allie Smith" at Feb 1, 99 02:13:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi Allie, I used Benjamin Moore Pristine a few years ago. It's a no VOC product. The painting was done in mid summer so I could ventilate well. It had a mild smell the first day and disappeared quickly after that. I'm very sensitive so I did not paint my bedroom so I would have a safe room to be in. NonToxiCA makes a no VOC interior latex that they say is used in hospitals as well as residential and commercial applications. They will mail info and a product data sheet. 813/736-0930. They are in Dunedin, FL. Carol caroldag@liii.com > Can anyone recommend interior wall paint that would have the least > harmful effects on the environment (and me!) during both the production > and application processes? Perhaps someone out there is familiar with > certain non-toxic brands so that I don't have to take the manufacturer's > word alone that it's a "safe" product. > > Thanks! Allie Smith > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 10:19:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA29795 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12127; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:13:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:09:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11600 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:09:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11591 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:09:07 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ981193; Tue, 2 Feb 99 08:10:18 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA45276; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:09:41 -0700 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:09:40 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "David M. Foley" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: downsized mechanical In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk You said:"Marc Rosenbaum has written about this same idea in Journal of Light Construction. Amory Lovins published a similar argument, titled "Tunneling Through the Cost Barrier", and Wolfgang Feisch of Freiburg, Germany developed a similar analysis for the "Passivhaus" low-energy house he developed." ___________________________________________________________________________ David: Although this is not a new idea, I would like to read the references above. Does anyone have copies of the articles or web sites? Thank you for considering my request. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 10:33:22 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00062 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:33:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13439; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:27:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:23:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12752 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:23:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12742 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:23:04 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ824186; Tue, 2 Feb 99 08:24:18 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA109254; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:23:37 -0700 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 08:23:36 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Norbert Senf Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: Fireplace combustion air In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990129063858.00afacc0@mha-net.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk You said: "In your case, with the electric air damper closed, your heater will burn if you crack the loading door open. " _________________________________________________________________________ Norbert:The above is true, however I would like to know what volume we are using so that I do not backdraft my HRV, which is now set at 3 Pa positive pressure. I would certainly prefer to use indoor air, if possible. Perhaps a hole drilled into the door of the primary combustion chamber that is adjustable and measurable, may be a worthwhile consideration? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 10:36:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00134 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:36:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13912; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:30:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:26:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13069 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:25:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13046; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:25:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-08.netmeg.net [208.139.83.71]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA14396; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:25:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36B7190F.8FB0D67D@swinter.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:26:07 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Carol D'Agostino" CC: smitha2@nevada.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Non-toxic paints References: <199902021441.OAA12192@oak> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hello! NonToxica is at http://home.earthlink.net/~nontoxica Thanks! debra Lombard http:/home.earthlink.net/~dlombard Carol D'Agostino wrote: > Hi Allie, > > I used Benjamin Moore Pristine a few years ago. It's a no VOC product. > The painting was done in mid summer so I could ventilate well. It > had a mild smell the first day and disappeared quickly after that. > > I'm very sensitive so I did not paint my bedroom so I would have > a safe room to be in. > > NonToxiCA makes a no VOC interior latex that they say is used > in hospitals as well as residential and commercial applications. > They will mail info and a product data sheet. 813/736-0930. > They are in Dunedin, FL. > > Carol > caroldag@liii.com > > > Can anyone recommend interior wall paint that would have the least > > harmful effects on the environment (and me!) during both the production > > and application processes? Perhaps someone out there is familiar with > > certain non-toxic brands so that I don't have to take the manufacturer's > > word alone that it's a "safe" product. > > > > Thanks! Allie Smith > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 10:36:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00152 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13888; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:30:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:25:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13045 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:25:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13035 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:25:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from Alisa (pm1a8.rut.sover.net [207.136.196.168]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA26935 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:27:02 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) Alisa from pm1a8.rut.sover.net [207.136.196.168] 207.136.196.168 Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:27:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990202102714.0077ad28@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:27:14 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Danny Sagan Subject: GBlist: Percentage of Consumption In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Howdy Folks, There is a number going around relating to the percentage of the earths's resources that the industrial world consumes. Something like 20% of the earth's population consumes 80% of the resources. Does anyone have a more accurate figure than that. I am not that particular I just want to be precise enough to make a point. Thank you in advance- Danny Sagan, Randolph Ctr.VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 10:46:05 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00402 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:45:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14964; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:39:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:35:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14387 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14383 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:35:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id D2GA9PPR; Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:36:15 EST To: smitha2@nevada.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:29:24 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Non-toxic paints Message-ID: <19990202.103542.9798.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <36B6270B.8813A236@nevada.edu> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3-5,7,11,13-17 From: "Beverly A. Weiter" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Allie, The brand I have been using is called Non-Toxica. It is produced by a very dedicated former chemist who is deeply committed to good indoor air quality. The product is available by UPS from the manufacturer. Contact Garret Broadhead at 800-731-5007. He is located at 1042 Main St., Ste 2000, Dunedin, FL 34698. The product, unlike many of the mainstream brands, can be tinted any medium to light color because they use Covan tints - a European non-toxic tint system. Be aware, the product contains no preservatives so once open must be used up or disposed of within a short period of time. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 10:56:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00639 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:55:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15951; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:49:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:45:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15387 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:45:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15377 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:45:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from Alisa (pm1a8.rut.sover.net [207.136.196.168]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA03086; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:46:32 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) Alisa from pm1a8.rut.sover.net [207.136.196.168] 207.136.196.168 Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:46:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990202104645.00d55c8c@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:46:45 -0500 To: Martin Kaufman , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: Greenhouses In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990202021430.0096aa70@mail73.cwixmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Martin , Andy Shapiro, who is on this list,has written extensively on this subject and his book on attached solar greeenhouses is terrific and would be a great place for you to start- It is out of print but you can get it from Vermont inter-library loan- They have a copy at Vermont technical College -VTC's card catalog is online- I am not sure of the URL- try VTC.EDU > Also, has anyone >tried, or thought about, making an earth-bermed outdoor greenhouse? You asked if this would work without supplementary heat- From my experience and from asking this question of a lot- Such a greenhouse would need supplementary backup if you wanted to use it throughout the winter- If you wanted to extend the season only , however, you could do it. You may also want to look into cold-frames if you are thinking of not building on to your house- The benefits of attaching the greenhouse to your home are heating the house with extra-solar heat and using the house's thermal mass to store heat for the greenhouse. If you are into the idea of cold frames-Check out Eliot Coleman's book Four Season Harvest Good Luck Danny Sagan, Randolph Ctr VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 10:57:38 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00653 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:57:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16158; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:51:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:46:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA15497 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:46:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA15488 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:46:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from sover.net (pm0a26.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.154]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA03535; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:48:01 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) sover.net from pm0a26.mont.sover.net [209.198.93.154] 209.198.93.154 Tue, 2 Feb 1999 10:48:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36B71F13.7A088384@sover.net> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:51:47 -0500 From: Cindy Blakeslee Organization: The Center for Sustainble Building (Vermont) dba Residuum X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Danny Sagan CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Percentage of Consumption References: <3.0.3.32.19990202102714.0077ad28@sover.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Danny et al.: I have an article entitled "The environmental impact of US babies" which used to be on the EarthIsland website but no longer. It was excerpted from Wild Earth (Richmond VT). It has figures on the impact of us babies versus other nations, and they are quite amazing. I can fax it to you if you send me your fax number (anyone else, too.) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 11:31:04 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA01227 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:30:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19428; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:24:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:19:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18396 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:19:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from app1.netzero.net (mail.netzero.net [209.14.79.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA18391 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:19:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 12866 invoked by uid 0); 2 Feb 1999 16:02:25 -0000 Received: from pppa42-resalealbanyny1-1r1062.saturn.bbn.com (HELO martin) (4.16.124.53) by mail.netzero.net with SMTP; 2 Feb 1999 16:02:25 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990202104914.0095c430@mail73.cwixmail.com> X-Sender: 1088njr656l7@mail73.cwixmail.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:49:14 -0500 To: funger@aol.com From: Martin Kaufman Subject: Re: GBlist: Greenhouses Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <6f508c06.36b6f78d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Fred, Thanks so much for all the info. Are these books you mention still in print to your knowledge? So would you say, overall, that it makes more sense to build a separate greenhouse, maybe with earth berming? Martin At 08:03 AM 2/2/99 -0500, you wrote: >Martin, > >In the seventies, attached greenhouses were a primary prescription for saving >the world among solar advocates. > >Lots of great resources. Rodale published a book by James C. McCullagh called >"The Solar Greenhouse Book". Andy Shapiro (on this list) published a book >called "Low Cost Passive Solar Greenhouses" with The National Center For >Appropriate Technology. > >Many manufacturers sprang up to exploit a triving industry of attached >greenhouse builders through the eighties. Greenhouse and sunspaces were a >significant and well tracked niche in the remodeling industry for a decade. I >spent most of my career in the pursuit of greenhouse grown sustainable >nirvana. Today most of the greenhouse builders and manufacturers are gone. > >The lessons I learned: Doing it right is very expensive unless your primary >consideration is a functional horticultural greenhouse and you don't care >about aesthetics or controlling water related issues. Greenhouses, though very >nice, are not a panacea. Most of the kits and manufactured systems really >suck. Greenhouses take a flexible set of expectations about comfort, thermal >performance, etc. and more maintenance than most people are willing to invest. >All those concerns, including maintenance, can be overcome with a large enough >budget and a designer and builder with real expertise in the field. >Greenhouses tend to be a net energy loss to a building unless the building and >greenhouse are designed as an integrated system by someone that really >understands the issues and then is operated by the occupants in the manner >intended in the design. They tend to be user intensive and aren't for >everybody. > >Good glazing technology is a primary component of successful greenhouses that >unfortunately was left out of all the early books (and ninety five percent of >the sunrooms and greenhouses built). For those interested, I will be chairing >a short session in June at the American Solar Energy Society conference in >Portland Maine on water control in sloped glazing and flat panel installation. >We'll be talking both about the technical issues and why addressing technology >issues well is a key part of avoiding the boom and bust lessons of the sunroom >and solar dhw industries of the seventies and eighties. > >Leaks, condensation, overheating, overcooling, ventilation, insulated glass >seal failure and several other factors all make the appeal of attached >greenhouses a less than successful reality if they are not done well. Martin, >there are lots of lessons learned in the last thirty years that you should try >to take advantage of rather than reinventing the wheel. > >By the way, the ASES conference promises to be a great one and is a good place >for those of us that communicate by cyberspace to actually meet in the real >world. More information from WWW.NESEA.ORG > >Fred > > ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 14:32:21 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA05532 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:32:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02013; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:26:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:21:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01541 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:21:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01531 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:21:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA04241 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:21:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-wa41-40.ix.netcom.com(207.220.45.40) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma004162; Tue Feb 2 13:21:06 1999 Message-ID: <003901be4e9d$c4c269e0$282ddccf@upesi> From: "Russel DeLombard" To: "Green Building" Subject: Re: GBlist: Greenhouses Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:18:30 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Martin, I find Fred's remarks very well founded and worth considering. You also might want to research some of Nick Pine's writings and research on both sunspaces as passive solar collectors as well as greenhouse design and heating at http://www.ece.vill.edu/~nick/usenet/. This is an archive of his postings to Usenet newsgroups alt.solar.thermal and alt.energy.renewable (among others). While it takes some effort to sort thru the postings, answers and responses it is worth it for good ideas on greenhouse design, winter heating and sources of greenhouse components. You could also contact him with your questions via e-mail or the Usenet groups mentioned above. I believe his paper entitled "Solar Closets and Sunspaces" (posted at his web site http://www.ece.vill.edu/~nick/ ) is the best current thinking on this topic. He strongly believes that the best passive solar collector is one dedicated to that purpose alone...that is that it doesn't make sense to try and live in the space where solar collection happens. A space which you want to become overheated when the sun is out and which will experience significant heat loss when it is not. He advocates high efficiency collection of superheated air when the sun is available with adjacent highly insulated space dedicated to thermal storage for domestic hot water and space heat at night and during cloudy weather. I should mention also, that he is very focused on ultra low cost solutions to both topics. Hope this helps. Russel DeLombard, Architect Avatar Construction Inc. Box 11257 Bainbridge Island WA 98110 (206) 842-9350 Phone/FAX On 02 Feb 1997 Martin Kaufman writes (in part): >Fred, > >Thanks so much for all the info. Are these books you mention still in print >to your knowledge? So would you say, overall, that it makes more sense to >build a separate greenhouse, maybe with earth berming? > >Martin >[big snip] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 16:33:55 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA08825 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:33:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA11737; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:27:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:23:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11048 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:22:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11036 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:22:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-38-121.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.135.121]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA20491; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:23:38 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: From: "John Straube" To: , , Subject: RE: GBlist: Greenhouses Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:29:21 -0500 Message-ID: <000401be4ef3$18f9dc00$7987b7d1@jfstraube> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <6f508c06.36b6f78d@aol.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I think you have nicely summed up and supported with your experiece what I perceived of greenhouses. Many European Oko-homes still seem to sport large all sloped glass attached greenhouses. It is clearly better from a building performance point of view to glaze a south wall in a home than to have an attached greenhouse with sloped glazing overhead. My question to Fred and the list is: are the human and plant reasons why we should sacrifice some building performance to get the overhead lighting effect? Can I simply use solar tubes or infill with full spectrum lights to get the same effect? My experience is that no matter how well glazed a wall is, a 1.5 storey space with overhead sloped glazing (the stuff I hate to see becuase of its many drawbacks) has a very different "feel". Is this feel important and how do I get it in an energy and resource efficient way to produce a durable building? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 16:50:22 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA09050 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:50:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA13786; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:44:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:40:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA13221 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:40:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA13217 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:39:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.168]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4911100 ; Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:41:22 -0800 Message-ID: <36B770A2.330E0EDF@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:39:46 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jfstraube@golden.net CC: FUnger@aol.com, martinveg@bigfoot.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Greenhouses References: <000401be4ef3$18f9dc00$7987b7d1@jfstraube> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk John Straube wrote: > (the stuff I hate to see becuase of its many drawbacks) has > a very different "feel". Is this feel important and how do > I get it in an energy and resource efficient way to produce > a durable building? > > ______________________________________________________________________ William Morris might have grunted and said if you want that outside feeling - go outside, but then he didn't have Ontario to contend with in February. Even still we are having a mild sunny day but I've never seen such fierce winds and would not mind reducing my glazing so I won't have to witness some large maple pruning itself on me. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 18:34:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11329 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:34:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21287; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:28:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:24:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA20895 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:24:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20890 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:23:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on8-83.netcom.ca [209.146.133.83]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA15103; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:24:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990202181330.00a5ae30@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 18:21:30 -0400 To: From: Norbert Senf Subject: RE: GBlist: Greenhouses Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <000401be4ef3$18f9dc00$7987b7d1@jfstraube> References: <6f508c06.36b6f78d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 04:29 PM 02/02/99 -0500, John Straube wrote: >I think you have nicely summed up and supported with your >experiece what I perceived of greenhouses. Many European >Oko-homes still seem to sport large all sloped glass >attached greenhouses. Interesting thread. We attached a sunspace with fairly steeply sloped SDP acrylic glazing to our house. I got tired of having to sweep snow off it every morning (even a 1/2" dusting didn't slide off the acrylic). Anyway, tore it down and rebuilt it with the same panels vertical. It is a wonderful space this time of year, in the land of long winters - put on a T shirt and listen to reggae music - cheaper than going south ;-)..........Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 20:26:55 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA13009 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:26:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA00857; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:21:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:16:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA00441 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:16:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA00437 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:16:34 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 7CAKa03463; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:16:44 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <8c0d71c3.36b7a37c@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:16:44 EST To: martinveg@bigfoot.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: Greenhouses Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Martin, You asked: No simple answers. I still really like greenhouses attached to homes. I just hate to see them dne the way they are usually done. The answer to your question is it depends: On why you are building it: food, heat, aethetics, warm sunny hangout, hot tub room, start your garden crop, growing orchids? What's the orientation and site impact? How does it fit architecturally? What are the provisions for dealing with heat and moisture? Those books should be available through libraries. They will raise a bunch more questions and help you get started in the right direction. If you build an attached system, contact Abundant Energy in Pine Island New York for glazing systems. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 20:31:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA13064 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:31:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA01313; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:25:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:21:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA00838 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:20:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA00807 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:20:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.93] (newhenyusr0-a93.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.93]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA29822; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:21:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:21:53 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: GBlist: Central Vacuum Tube? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Speireag, I think your idea is so good that I've already done exactly what you describe. And it works wonderfully at a fraction of the cost of a conventional central vac. I bought a 5 gal shop-vac for about $50 and it's plenty powerful, and holds a lot of dust. I got some hose adaptors to fit it to a 2" tube that runs down the middle of my house. For a larger house you could make a more elaborate vacuum tube layout, just like in any central vac system. Then I ordered an extra long 18 foot hose from shop-vac for about $50. If you need longer you can connect two of them together. It will reach into every corner of my house and has another adapter to fit it to the 2" tube. I plan to build a little attached exterior box hanging off the side of my house to contain the shop-vac, and also to reduce the noise level. Already, the noise level is significantly reduced simply by being on the far side of an exterior wall. The only thing it won't have is a switch on the hose itself for turning the vacuum on and off. But I will install a wall switch in a convenient central location. And if you really wanted, you could buy a wired hose with switch from NuTone, or one of the other central-vac makers, and wire it into a 24 volt relay, and then you'd have exactly the same thing as a NuTone system for about $400 less money. And the difference in dust levels in my house is amazing. Regular vacuums simply spread the fine dust everywhere so that a few hours later it settles on everything. Not good for IAQ. A central-vac based on a shop-vac is also much cheaper than the supposedly HEPA vacuums, and you never have to worry whether the HEPA filter is really working ... all the dust goes outside. One note, the newer "QSP" series of shop-vacs which have supposedly quieter, more powerful motors, also have a different exhaust shape, which does not allow one to take a short length of hose and send the exhaust out of the little enclosure that I intend to make. Also, you can not use them as blowers, which I have found useful on occasion. So, you might want to stick to the older type with the round fittings for both suction and exhaust. Also, when you say "no particle filter would be required", that would be a big mistake. The real reason shop-vacs have dust bags or filters is to protect the motor. All the exhaust air gets blown right through the motor to cool it. Allowing larger particles in that air flow will supposedly quickly ruin the motor. So keep using filters and/or bags for the motor's sake, and send the exhaust outdoors for your own well being. Happy house-keeping, Chris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 08:11:28 -0500 From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Central Vacuum Tube? Hallo, all. It occurred to me a few days ago that I could provide for a central vacuum in my small house and get significant air quality gains. If I put a pipe through the wall in the washroom area and stucco around it, I could get a sectioned hose for vacuuming on the interior, which hose would reach just about everywhere (it's a small house). When I wanted to vacuum, I could hook up a shop vacuum to the outside of the house. That way, grit and grick and small objects would end up in the vacuum. AND (this is the neat part) dust and small fibers and stale air would end up outside, so that no particle filter would be required. I wouldn't be recycling the really small particles back into the house atmosphere. What think you? - -Speireag. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 2 21:08:53 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA13904 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:08:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA04631; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:02:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:58:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04092 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:58:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04088 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:58:28 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 9QKUa03482; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:55:25 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <2db83253.36b7ac8d@aol.com> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:55:25 EST To: jfstraube@golden.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: RE: GBlist: Greenhouses Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk John, Plants and people both seem to love that overhead light. Neither seem to like too much of it though. With over 150 sunrooms and other sloped glazing projects under my belt, I also ended up installing lots of shading systems. The serious horticultural greenhouses all had seasonal shading. I would guess that out of all those folks, at least half probably wish they never did their sunspaces. A couple took chainsaws and sledge hammers to them. And a whole bunch of others consider them the best space in their lives. The hot tub room people seemed to insist on the full overhead glass the most. Big hot tub with the built in champagne bucket on a star lit night: you get the picture. You'd be amazed how much money our culture has spent on that fantasy. I guess it's cheaper than divorse. The "feel" of sunspaces that you mention is real. Lot's of people are attracted to it. Who knows what it's worth and what it's worth sacrificing to have. No simple answers, but I'd generally minimize or eliminate the sloped glass these days and go for a few well placed skylights. We've also done a few really fun rooms with flat roofs and beautiful pyramidal skylights. Generally it comes down to the same kinds of questions as in any good architectural design process. Once the overall design is established, special features like sloped glazing require special design attention in order to maximize their benefits and minimize their negatives. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 3 00:22:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA17084 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:22:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA14562; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:16:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:12:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA14288 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:12:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA14284 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 00:12:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 10214 invoked by alias); 3 Feb 1999 05:14:02 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 10175 invoked by uid 0); 3 Feb 1999 05:14:01 -0000 Received: from jdialup167.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.180.240.167) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 3 Feb 1999 05:14:01 -0000 Message-ID: <009401be4f33$bd608ba0$a7f0b4d1@h5n5y7> From: "PETER F. ALSPACH" To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , "David M. Foley" Cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: downsized mechanical Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:12:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk In regard to this- at the Colorado Renewable Energy Society conference last year there was a presentation about a new library in Ft. Collins, CO. A very interesting case-study. The utility company shared the extra design fees to go above and beyond the typical construction. The energy savings of the day-lighting and other energy design was more than enough to reduce the cost of mech. equipment so that it paid for the extra design fees, even if they hadn't been paid for already. And the cost of construction ended up being almost the same as for the base-level typical building. The library's name is Harmonie. I thought there was a web-site, but I can't find it. Peter Alspach ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 3 07:34:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA20990 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:34:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA27487; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:28:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:23:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA27235 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:23:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f116.hotmail.com [209.185.131.179]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA27231 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:23:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 28297 invoked by uid 0); 3 Feb 1999 12:24:47 -0000 Message-ID: <19990203122447.28295.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 192.151.112.28 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 03 Feb 1999 04:24:47 PST X-Originating-IP: [192.151.112.28] From: "droef droef" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: GB: solar cooking Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 04:24:47 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Any solar cooks arround? At Home Power I saw an advert for a book called 'Heaven's Flame' with plans for building the SunStar Cooker. -Is this a good book? Any other suggestions for reading on this subject. -Is solar cooking only for very hot climats? -Is Home Power a good source for info? Or are they only there to push certain products? Greetings, Andre ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 3 08:06:42 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA21707 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:06:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA28592; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:00:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:56:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA28228 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:56:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix2.interkan.net (root@unix2.interkan.net [12.13.79.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA28224 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:56:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from interkan.net (pm3-mhk74.interkan.net [12.13.79.104]) by unix2.interkan.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/jpw@interkan.net) with ESMTP id GAA06857; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:58:18 -0600 Message-ID: <36B84779.ABF88A5D@interkan.net> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 06:56:26 -0600 From: Tamara & Bill Dorsett Reply-To: dorsett@interkan.net Organization: Health Options X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: droef droef CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: GB: solar cooking References: <19990203122447.28295.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Andre, Home Power is unusually good on most RE topics. They do print submitted articles fairly unedited and so there are examples of technically marginal systems represented. It would be useful if there were "helpful hints" at the end of each article. However renewable energy is not one shoe fits all - not all countries or even areas of the US require or even have the hardware required by the National Electric Code. So system wiring or recommended battery sizing and type needs to be adapted to location, user finances, and a pot full of other variables. Their examples should be taken as that. Some writers are frank about their mistakes while others simply don't know. Overall HP at $22.50/year offers the "Best Buy" in renewable energy literature. If you suspect that financial gain is the sole motivation behind HP, you should check out their CD's containing all back issues, thousands of pages, and articles for the price of a book. Richard and Karen Perez deserve a place in the RE Hall of Fame. Home Power PO Box 520 Ashland, OR 97520 800/707-6585 e-mail: hp@homepower.com www.homepower.com droef droef wrote: > Hi, > > Any solar cooks arround? > > At Home Power I saw an advert for a book called 'Heaven's Flame' with > plans for building the SunStar Cooker. > -Is this a good book? Any other suggestions for reading on this subject. > -Is solar cooking only for very hot climats? > -Is Home Power a good source for info? Or are they only there to push > certain products? > > Greetings, > Andre > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 3 08:35:55 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA21947 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:35:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00052; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:30:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:25:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA29535 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:25:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA29531 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:25:40 -0500 (EST) received: from acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.206) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ465382; Wed, 3 Feb 99 06:27:05 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA28870; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:26:38 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:26:37 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca To: droef droef Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: GB: solar cooking In-Reply-To: <19990203122447.28295.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Andre: We use a solar oven on a daily basis. When it was -15dC outside on a partially sunny day it was 250dF inside with a pot. It is made in Saskatchewan. We have used many solar cookers through the years including fancy ones from Switzerland and many various home-built ones out of cardboard, with and without reflectors. It is our primary form of heating our food, but our oven in our masonry heater (secondary combustion chamber) is our backup, before plugging appliances into the wall. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, droef droef wrote: > Any solar cooks arround? > > At Home Power I saw an advert for a book called 'Heaven's Flame' with > plans for building the SunStar Cooker. > -Is this a good book? Any other suggestions for reading on this subject. > -Is solar cooking only for very hot climats? > -Is Home Power a good source for info? Or are they only there to push > certain products? > > Greetings, > Andre > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 3 08:53:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA22381 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:53:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01779; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:47:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:44:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01335 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:43:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01331 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:43:46 -0500 (EST) received: from acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.206) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ662538; Wed, 3 Feb 99 06:45:08 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA25216; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:45:00 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 06:45:00 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca To: "PETER F. ALSPACH" Cc: "David M. Foley" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: downsized mechanical In-Reply-To: <009401be4f33$bd608ba0$a7f0b4d1@h5n5y7> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Peter: Thank you for the interesting case study.If you or anyone find the web site for this library, please post it. I am sure others beside myself would be interested. Jorg Ostrowski _______________________________________________________________________ On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, PETER F. ALSPACH wrote: > > In regard to this- at the Colorado Renewable Energy Society conference last > year there was a presentation about a new library in Ft. Collins, CO. A very > interesting case-study. The utility company shared the extra design fees to > go above and beyond the typical construction. The energy savings of the > day-lighting and other energy design was more than enough to reduce the cost > of mech. equipment so that it paid for the extra design fees, even if they > hadn't been paid for already. And the cost of construction ended up being > almost the same as for the base-level typical building. > > The library's name is Harmonie. I thought there was a web-site, but I can't > find it. > > Peter Alspach > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 3 09:04:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22528 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:04:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA02901; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:58:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:54:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA02232 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:53:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA02225 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:53:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA22291; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:55:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA03488; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:55:21 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:55:21 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: droef droef Cc: solarcooking-l@igc.org, "Ross M. Donald" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: GB: solar cooking In-Reply-To: <19990203122447.28295.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Andre, I'm forwarding your question to the solar cooking list. Yours truly, Ross encl: On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, droef droef wrote: > Hi, > > Any solar cooks arround? > > At Home Power I saw an advert for a book called 'Heaven's Flame' with > plans for building the SunStar Cooker. > -Is this a good book? Any other suggestions for reading on this subject. > -Is solar cooking only for very hot climats? > -Is Home Power a good source for info? Or are they only there to push > certain products? > > Greetings, > Andre > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. Send press releases, announcements, and notices of interest to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 To receive the next edition of the Environmental Review, send, subscribe er-list, to ; for Solar Utilities info, send, subscribe solar_utilities ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 3 09:57:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23653 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:57:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07148; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:51:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:46:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06556 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:46:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix2.interkan.net (root@unix2.interkan.net [12.13.79.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06546 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:46:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from interkan.net (pm3-mhk56.interkan.net [12.13.79.86]) by unix2.interkan.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/jpw@interkan.net) with ESMTP id IAA14669 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:47:52 -0600 Message-ID: <36B85EC2.CF2291B8@interkan.net> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 08:35:47 -0600 From: Tamara & Bill Dorsett Reply-To: dorsett@interkan.net Organization: Health Options X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Small high efficiency natural gas heaters? Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk We are ready to build a small tight house for a client and are trying to survey high efficiency natural gas heaters that are designed small enough. The smallest furnace we've found locally is 50,000 btu's and this home should require less than half this capacity. We've considered using a standard gas hot water heater to warm a radiant floor but the cost has been quoted at $6000 for 1276 sq.ft. Our criteria would be that:
   * combustion byproducts be vented to the outside
   * combustion air be drawn in from outside and the seal of the thermal envelope not be compromised
   * And that the heater operate at high efficiency

Does anyone have suggestions? Actual experience?

Thanks everyone

Bill Dorsett
Manhattan, KS
dorsett@interkan.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 3 10:20:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24518 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:20:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09174; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:14:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:10:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08784 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:10:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08776 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:10:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-38.netcom.ca [207.181.90.102]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA02511; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:10:19 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990203094718.00a666e0@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 10:05:31 -0400 To: David Blatt From: Norbert Senf Subject: RE: GBlist: Greenhouses Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990203052710.00699150@proaxis.com> References: <4.1.19990202181330.00a5ae30@mha-net.org> <000401be4ef3$18f9dc00$7987b7d1@jfstraube> <6f508c06.36b6f78d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 05:27 AM 03/02/99 -0800, David Blatt wrote: >Norbert >I'm hoping to include a greenhouse in my new house (as well as masonry >stove between the kitchen and family room). Where in the house plan did >you locate your greenhouse? Does it help significantly with winter heating? (snip) David: The sunspace is 12X12, with the gabled south face 12' at the peak and SDP double walled acrylic glazing on the entire face. I like the acrylic because it comes in 4x12 sheets and isn't clear like glass - gives you a different feel. It is off the south wall of the house, off the kitchen/living room, which is 6" uninsulated masonry in this area. The 2 side walls and roof are home-built stress skin panels made of 4 - 6" double density (type 2) styrofoam beadboard skinned over with glass mesh and 1/8" home-made surface bonding cement consisting of 1:1 white portland:sand with "Weldbond" acrylic replacing 50% of the mixing water. We also have an air core floor, which I put in just because is is very easy and cheap - haven't hooked it up, because the house has enough mass to soak up any extra heat without a problem. I would say that the sunspace is a net energy loss, which is fine since we heat with wood - an extra 1/3 cord per year is worth about $30.00. At night we close the French doors, and on very cold nights it needs a small amount of backup heat to keep it from freezing. We keep plants in there, but mainly for atmosphere - growing crops at this latitude (45) in winter is unrealistic without extra light. My favorite aspect of the sunspace is that it really helps to shorten the winter, starting about this time of year, as the days get sunnier and longer. It also provides very nice tempered natural light to the house. Best.........Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 3 10:58:57 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25342 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:58:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12444; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:52:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:47:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11731 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:47:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11726 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:47:33 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id OOYVa20088; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:43:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:43:51 EST To: dorsett@interkan.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Small high efficiency natural gas heaters? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk We have experience with gas-fired room heaters, mostly with Rinnai but we've also looked at Empire. These are sealed combustion, just over 80% efficiency. The Rinnai units have modulating gas valves. The smallest one currently is 18,000 Btu/hr input, which I believe modulates down to 8,000 Btu/hr. They have a smaller one which is supposed to come out soon, perhaps this summer. We are in the middle of a research project evaluating these in actual installations - if you need more information on tradeoffs, issues, etc, let me know. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 108 S. Albany Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX imshapiro@aol.com "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 3 11:00:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25376 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:00:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12600; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:53:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:49:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11862 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:49:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11852 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:48:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on3-32.netcom.ca [207.181.90.160]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA16152; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:49:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990203104223.0099ad30@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 10:44:46 -0400 To: David Blatt From: Norbert Senf Subject: RE: GBlist: Greenhouses Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990203052710.00699150@proaxis.com> References: <4.1.19990202181330.00a5ae30@mha-net.org> <000401be4ef3$18f9dc00$7987b7d1@jfstraube> <6f508c06.36b6f78d@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 05:27 AM 03/02/99 -0800, David Blatt wrote: (snip) Where in the house plan did >you locate your greenhouse? Does it help significantly with winter heating? David: further to the earlier post, here's an image from today (cloudy): http://mha-net.org/msb/graphics/temp/sunspace.jpg ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 3 11:02:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25418 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:02:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12931; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:56:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:51:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12297 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:51:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12287 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:51:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id JAA03285 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:52:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-wa41-08.ix.netcom.com(207.220.45.8) by dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma003079; Wed Feb 3 09:51:22 1999 Message-ID: <003501be4f49$9fbe5350$082ddccf@upesi> From: "Russel DeLombard" To: "Green Building" Subject: Re: GBlist: Small high efficiency natural gas heaters? Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 07:48:41 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0032_01BE4F49.9E2F9D00" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BE4F49.9E2F9D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, You might want to review a recent article entitled "Using Hot Water = Heaters for Radiant Heat" in The Journal of Light Construction, Nov = 1998, p. 59-64 (also available online at = http://www.jlconline.com/jlc/archive/energy/water_heater_heat/index.html = ). The article describes the reasoning behind the use of hot water = heaters instead of boilers and includes schematic diagrams for several = systems (dedicated for heating, dual purpose heating/domestic hot water, = and dual purpose with heat exchanger) as well as recommendations on = system components. The author is a Northern California plumbing and heating contractor with = 25 years experience and who has installed 30 such systems for both = baseboard and radiant floor applications. They have performed so well = that he says he uses boilers only on a minority of his projects now. Russel DeLombard, Architect Avatar Construction Inc. Box 11257 Bainbridge Island WA 98110 (206) 842-9350 Phone/FAX =20 On 03 Feb 1999 Bill Dorsett writes (in part): =20 >> ...We've considered using a standard gas hot water heater to warm a = radiant floor but the cost has been quoted at $6000 for 1276 sq.ft. Our = criteria would be that:=20 * combustion byproducts be vented to the outside=20 * combustion air be drawn in from outside and the seal of the thermal = envelope not be compromised=20 * And that the heater operate at high efficiency=20 Does anyone have suggestions? Actual experience? >> ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BE4F49.9E2F9D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Bill,
 
You might want to review a recent article entitled = "Using=20 Hot Water Heaters for Radiant Heat" in The Journal of Light = Construction,=20 Nov 1998, p. 59-64 (also available online at http://www.jlconline.com/jlc/archive/energy/water_heater_heat/in= dex.html=20 ).  The article describes the reasoning behind the = use of hot=20 water heaters instead of boilers and includes schematic diagrams for = several=20 systems (dedicated for heating, dual purpose heating/domestic hot water, = and=20 dual purpose with heat exchanger) as well as recommendations on system=20 components.
 
The author is a Northern California plumbing and = heating=20 contractor with 25 years experience and who has installed 30 such = systems for=20 both baseboard and radiant floor applications.  They have performed = so well=20 that he says he uses boilers only on a minority of his projects=20 now.
 
Russel DeLombard, Architect <rus_d@ix.netcom.com>
Avatar= =20 Construction Inc.
Box 11257
Bainbridge Island WA 98110
(206) = 842-9350=20 Phone/FAX
 
On 03 Feb 1999 Bill Dorsett writes = (in=20 part):
 
>> ...We've considered using a = standard=20 gas hot water heater to warm a radiant floor but the cost has been = quoted at=20 $6000 for 1276 sq.ft. Our criteria would be that:
   * = combustion=20 byproducts be vented to the outside
   * combustion air be = drawn=20 in from outside and the seal of the thermal envelope not be compromised=20
   * And that the heater operate at high efficiency=20

Does anyone have suggestions? Actual experience?=20 >>

------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BE4F49.9E2F9D00-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 3 11:49:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26936 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:49:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17250; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:42:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:38:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16619 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:38:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16592 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:38:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA11594 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:39:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md16-40.ix.netcom.com(205.184.106.40) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma011420; Wed Feb 3 10:38:15 1999 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990203114436.0089ba40@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 11:44:36 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Sustainable Development Indicators Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Sustainable Development Indicators A new report summarizes two years of work by the U.S. Interagency Working Group on Sustainable Development Indicators (SDI) group that resulted in the selection of 40 indicators which will track U.S. progress toward national sustainability goals. To access the full report, see or contact SDI Executive Director David Berry at ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 3 13:59:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00091 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:59:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA00835; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:53:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:49:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00257 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:49:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp0.mindspring.com (smtp0.mindspring.com [207.69.200.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00252 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:49:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from kbell (pool-207-205-239-24.atln.grid.net [207.205.239.24]) by smtp0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA29836; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:49:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002201be4fa6$5a653460$18efcdcf@kbell> From: "Karlene" To: "PETER F. ALSPACH" , "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , "David M. Foley" Cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: downsized mechanical Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 13:49:03 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Interesting that an utility company would pay to have their bills reduced....... Hmmmmm-- karlene >interesting case-study. The utility company shared the extra design fees to go above and beyond the typical construction. The energy savings of the>day-lighting and other energy design was more than enough to reduce the cost > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 3 14:59:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01808 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:59:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08162; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:53:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:49:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07735 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:49:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from airmail.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.20.220]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07731 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 14:49:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from arb.ca.gov ([146.114.11.17]) by airmail.arb.ca.gov (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA3E0C; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 11:24:53 -0800 Message-ID: <36B8A3A0.76B73B05@arb.ca.gov> Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 11:29:37 -0800 From: "Thomas Phillips" Organization: CARB/RD, Indoor Air Quality and Personal Exposure Assessment Program X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST CC: "OFFERMANN,F.J." , "LEVIN, HAL" Subject: GBlist: LEVI'S BLDG. UNHEALTHFUL Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9E3F08736C0347FD579E5F41" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9E3F08736C0347FD579E5F41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear GBlisters: Just saw a newpaper item on a mysterious breast cancer cluster at the Levi Strauss headquarters building in San Francisco. Dr. Buffler and other researchers at UC Berkeley could not ID a cause, so to be safe, Levi's moved all 200 employees elsewhere as part of their downsizing efforts. The story was reported in the S.F. Business Times on February 1: http://www.amcity.com/sanfrancisco/stories/1999/02/01/story1.html?h=Levis|Strauss I seem to recall that Levi's had touted a new building as a "green building" a few years ago. Does anybody have more info on this problem building? TIA, Tom Phillips -- Thomas J. Phillips CARB/RD, 2020 L St., POB 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 916.322.7145/4357 FAX IAQ guidelines: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor/indoor.htm Research summaries: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor/resnotes.htm --------------9E3F08736C0347FD579E5F41 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for THOMAS J. PHILLIPS Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: THOMAS J. PHILLIPS n: PHILLIPS;THOMAS J. org: California Air Resources Board, Research Division adr: 2020 L St.;;POB 2815;Sacramento;CA;95812;USA email;internet: tphillip@arb.ca.gov title: Air Pollution Research Specialist tel;work: 916.322.7145 tel;fax: / 4357 note;quoted-printable:IAQ guidelines: http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm=0D=0A= Research summaries: http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------9E3F08736C0347FD579E5F41-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 3 19:53:46 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA09126 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:53:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02290; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:47:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:43:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01887 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:43:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01883 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:43:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.99] (rkd075.acadia.net [208.244.128.99]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id TAA14509 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:44:42 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:43:23 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Small high efficiency natural gas heaters? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi Bill, We've had very good luck with Rinnai gas furnaces. They meet all your criteria. Cost installed should be under $1800 (US). What you didn't specify is whether your clients want individual room control. A well-constructed and insulated 1276 sqaure foot house should be able to be kept comfortable by a heat source in one (lower floor) location. It's hard to find small furnaces or boilers that allow for zoning, remote distribution of heat, etc. Another option in single-location gas appliances would be a gas-fired, sealed-combustion fireplace, complete with simulated log of concrete, glass doors, and such. Gives a living room the ol' charm thing, and they work pretty darn well. Cost installed will likely be closer to $2500. Bear skin rug not included, nor the Aste Spumante. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 3 21:37:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA11643 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:37:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA13257; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:31:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:27:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12048 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12042 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:27:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 11094 invoked by alias); 4 Feb 1999 02:28:41 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 11047 invoked by uid 0); 4 Feb 1999 02:28:39 -0000 Received: from odialup110.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.181.67.110) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 4 Feb 1999 02:28:39 -0000 Message-ID: <009001be4fe5$cc5e74c0$6e43b5d1@h5n5y7> From: "PETER F. ALSPACH" To: "Karlene" , "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , "David M. Foley" Cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: downsized mechanical Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:26:39 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Yes, we were all pretty shocked. However, the utility is a small one, and citizen-owned (whatever that may mean). I found some web-sites after I passed a critical step- I learned to spell it correctly! It's Harmony Library. Duh. The utility's home page http://www.light-power.org/ Their product lists- residential and commercial services http://www.light-power.org/prodserv.htm and the library's home page with construction info. http://www.ci.fort-collins.co.us/C_LIBRARY/branch3.htm Cheers, Pete ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 3 21:42:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA11707 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:42:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA14199; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:36:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:32:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA13335 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:32:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA13328 for ; Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:32:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 18033 invoked by alias); 4 Feb 1999 02:33:48 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 17994 invoked by uid 0); 4 Feb 1999 02:33:48 -0000 Received: from odialup110.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.181.67.110) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 4 Feb 1999 02:33:48 -0000 Message-ID: <009201be4fe6$84075ce0$6e43b5d1@h5n5y7> From: "PETER F. ALSPACH" To: "Karlene" , "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , "David M. Foley" Cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: downsized mechanical Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:31:47 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk ok, more on it: Architects: Davis Partnership Engineers: Cator Ruma Energy Consultants: LightForms!-in Boulder,CO (303) 449-2323 Pete ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 4 11:11:59 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20004 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:11:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26102; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:05:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:58:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24530 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:58:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:58:31 -0500 (EST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: freenrg-l@eskimo.com, MARLON REYES Subject: GBlist: HELP: Lithium Bromide for cooling (fwd) Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear Colleagues: Could some kind soul guide this student in the right direction please? Please forward your comments directly to the e-mail address below. Thank you for considering my request on behalf of a keen student on a quest. Jorg ostrowski ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 21:16:49 -0800 From: MARLON REYES To: jdo@ucalgary.ca Subject: Lithium Bromide Marlon Reyes Ryerson Polytechnic University Architectural Building Science To: Jorg D Ostrowski Hello sir, my name is Marlon Reyes, I am currently working on a thesis research, regarding solar absorption cooling methods and I would like to find out more on the application of the Lithium Bromide solar absorption as a system to be applied for cooling. I interest in this system,since it operates at low regeneration temperatures, but I have not been able to find information regarding operation costs. I am contemplating the possibility to apply it as the cooling method for residential use in hot weather environments. I have had a hard time finding professionals versed in this subject who could perhaps guide me. Any information regarding this, would be highly appreciated. Thank you for reading this message and for any indication you may provide. Yours truly Marlon Reyes ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 4 13:03:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA22929 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 13:03:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09318; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:57:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:53:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08655 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:52:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (root@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.253.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08648 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 12:52:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from leo.davisenergy.com (rr1modem04.dcn.davis.ca.us [168.150.253.224]) by wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (8.8.7/DCN8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00936; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:54:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:54:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199902041754.JAA00936@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us> X-Sender: lirainer@dcn.davis.ca.us X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Karlene" From: Leo Rainer Subject: Re: GBlist: downsized mechanical Cc: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 01:49 PM 2/3/99 -0500, Karlene wrote: >Interesting that an utility company would pay to have their bills >reduced....... Hmmmmm-- karlene > A downsized mechanical system is beneficial to the utility since its load factor - the ratio of average annual power to peak power - is much higher. It therefore requires less generation, transmission, and distribution infrastructure for close to as much annual revenue. Another way to look at it is that oversized mechanical systems on lousy buildings require a utility to build power plants to run on the peak day but sit idle the rest of the time. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Leo Rainer Email: lirainer@davisenergy.com Davis Energy Group Phone: 530.753.1100 123 C Street Fax: 530.753.4125 Davis, CA 95616 Web: http://www.davisenergy.com ============================================================================ Energy Analysis * Mechanical Design * Product Engineering ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 4 15:40:00 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA28756 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:39:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21737; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:33:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:29:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA21215 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:28:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA21211 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:28:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-206-tnt-btvt-02.ramp.together.net [209.91.2.206]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18964; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:30:21 -0500 Message-ID: <36BA0354.40FC55F0@together.net> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 15:30:12 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,nl MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: GreenBuilding Listserver , freenrg-l@eskimo.com, MARLON REYES Subject: Re: GBlist: HELP: Lithium Bromide for cooling (fwd) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk As a front line HVAC designer, this application is highly untypical. ASHRAE sponsors a lot of research studies on a variety of refrigerant R&D applications, much of quite esoteric. My only suggestion would be to look at some of the research data regularly published through ASHRAE. Suggest starting at the ASHRAE site.... where you can search various research papers. http://www.ashrae.org/ Hope this helps. Tom Anderson "Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org > Precedence: bulk > > Dear Colleagues: > Could some kind soul guide this student in the right direction please? > Please forward your comments directly to the e-mail address below. Thank > you for considering my request on behalf of a keen student on a quest. > Jorg ostrowski > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 21:16:49 -0800 > From: MARLON REYES > To: jdo@ucalgary.ca > Subject: Lithium Bromide > > Marlon Reyes > Ryerson Polytechnic University > Architectural Building Science > > To: Jorg D Ostrowski > Hello sir, my name is Marlon Reyes, I am currently working on a thesis > research, regarding solar absorption cooling methods and I would like to > find out more on the application of the Lithium Bromide solar absorption > as a system to be applied for cooling. I interest in this system,since > it operates at low regeneration temperatures, but I have not been able > to find information regarding operation costs. > I am contemplating the possibility to apply it as the cooling method for > residential use in hot weather environments. > I have had a hard time finding professionals versed in this subject who > could perhaps guide me. > Any information regarding this, would be highly appreciated. > Thank you for reading this message and for any indication you may > provide. > Yours truly > Marlon Reyes > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 4 16:05:00 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA29213 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:04:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23870; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:58:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:54:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA23312 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:53:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902042053.PAA23312@solstice.crest.org> Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:13:40 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: droef droef , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Cc: Barbara Kerr Subject: Re: GBlist: GB: solar cooking (fwd) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear green builders, Don't let me get in the middle here. If you'd like to learn about solar cooking directly and from the best, please, subscribe to the . They're a good group. One of the recent discussions, for instance, which pops up once in a while, was about built-in (!) solar ovens. Yours truly, Ross ps. Barbara Kerr has a well read book on solar cooking, too. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 4 16:12:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA29340 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:12:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24624; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:06:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:02:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24128 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:01:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24124 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:01:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-0-82.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.0.82]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA18474 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:03:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36BA0D4A.236D8C3C@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 16:12:42 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding-List Subject: GBlist: Insulating a roof. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi All, I am replacing a couple of flat roofs on Victorian home in Toronto. (19 feet by 14 feet times 2) I want to take this opportunity to insulate the roof from the outside. However, all the contractors that I talk to think I am nuts. Wouldn't it be fairly straightforward to do an upside-down roof? (Some coating to protect the insulation) Dense Blue (XPS) Insulation (taped??) EPDM OLD SHEATHING JOISTS Plaster & Lathe Anyone have any comments on the value of this sort of change. Neil -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 4 20:41:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA05444 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:41:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA11986; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:35:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:31:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11609 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:30:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA11605 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:30:48 -0500 (EST) From: Sprngwnd@aol.com Received: from Sprngwnd@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 8SVWa05506 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:22:38 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:22:38 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Roofing materials Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 226 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hello all, I have tuned into this list now and again for the last several months, and have found the commentary very informative, enlightening and entertaining. Thanks to all of the people that are so willing to share their wealth of knowledge. I am interested in people's opinions as to the best option for replacing an existing asphalt shingle roof. I am somewhat familiar with standing seam metal and PV shingles, although I am not versed on all of the pros and cons. Might there be additional eco-friendly/renewable-based/sustainable material type options that would be worth looking into. Any/all info. greatly appreciated. Peace, Mike Joyce ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 4 22:30:08 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA08647 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA17443; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:19:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17098 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:19:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17092 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:19:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.242] (ka4-242.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.242]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.9.1+DND/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA03782 for ; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:18:50 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:34:01 -0500 To: Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: GBlist: Masonry Stoves & Earthquakes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id WAA17094 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hallo, all. I was listening to a radio program the other day. The topic was earthquakes in New Hampshire (yes, they do happen, more often and stronger than most people realize). They mentioned that brick buildings without reinforcement suffer, and especially chimneys, which must be checked immediately before building fires after an earthquake. Now, I grew up in Northern California, so I am perhaps more aware than most people in New Hampshire of earthquake safety. But it never occurred to me to ask: how to masonry stoves hold up in earthquakes? Wood stoves would be much easier to repair, I would imagine. It would be a shame to have to re-build a $5000 to $25000 masonry stove each time we got a good, hard jolt. Any thoughts? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 00:59:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11251 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 00:59:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA23307; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 00:53:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 00:48:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA22816 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 00:48:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.dartmouth.edu (mailhub.dartmouth.edu [129.170.16.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA22808 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 00:48:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.242] (ka4-242.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.242]) by mailhub.dartmouth.edu (8.9.1+DND/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA09272; Thu, 4 Feb 1999 22:14:36 -0500 (EST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36B70F07.6877@cyberzone.net> References: Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:43:32 -0500 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net, Green Building List From: Speireag Alden Subject: Re: GBlist: Central Vacuum Tube? Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id AAA22809 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Sgrìobh Dan and Pam Harazim: > What would happen if you vented the vacuum into the compost heap (right > next to the garbage disposal pipe thing)? Is there any fertilizer value > to household dust, or do dust mites count as "animal products?" Just > thinkin'... There probably is fertilizer value to some of it, but I'd worry about the rest; bits of plastic, etc. Perhaps not into the compost heap. -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 03:07:31 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA12241 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 03:07:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA28043; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 03:01:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 02:57:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA27724 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 02:57:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f100.hotmail.com [209.185.131.163]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA27720 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 02:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 3491 invoked by uid 0); 5 Feb 1999 07:58:17 -0000 Message-ID: <19990205075817.3490.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 192.151.112.28 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 04 Feb 1999 23:58:16 PST X-Originating-IP: [192.151.112.28] From: "Andre de Bouter" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: solar cooking (Thanx) Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 23:58:16 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk >>> Any solar cooks around? >Hi, If you tell us where you live the chances are good that a solar cook is probably in your area. I'm in The Netherlands. But plan to do my cooking in France. Nice to hear Home Power is a good source. When I read through it it looked to good to be true. I will order the solar cooking book and give it a try. Thanx for the info (I never imagined Solar-cooking would be a possibility). Andre ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 03:34:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA12474 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 03:34:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA28900; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 03:28:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 03:24:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA28620 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 03:24:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f195.hotmail.com [209.185.130.105]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA28616 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 03:24:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 7849 invoked by uid 0); 5 Feb 1999 08:25:32 -0000 Message-ID: <19990205082532.7848.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 192.151.112.28 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 05 Feb 1999 00:25:32 PST X-Originating-IP: [192.151.112.28] From: "Andre de Bouter" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: GB: solar angles based on location Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 00:25:32 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi, For a guest-house that i'm trying to design I need to calculate solar angles in order to dedide on the angle of the roof of the porch. I found this site to do so: http://solstice.crest.org/staff/ceg/sunangle/index.html But I need to know the Latitude&Longitude. Does anybody know where I can find that kind of info for Bordaux or Poitiers in France. (I work on win-NT not Mac) I guess the trick in this angle and length of the roof is not to get any direct sunlight on the window's in summer and to get all available sunlight on the windows in winter. All help appreciated. Andre ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 04:29:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA14077 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 04:29:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA00496; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 04:22:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 04:18:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA00177 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 04:18:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.privat.kkf.net (privat.kkf.net [212.63.32.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA00173 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 04:18:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from alex (mi-dial1.privat.kkf.net [212.63.37.1]) by mail.privat.kkf.net (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id KAA27889; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:20:07 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199902050920.KAA27889@mail.privat.kkf.net> From: "alexander neumann" To: , Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulating a roof. Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:16:27 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > Hi All, > > I am replacing a couple of flat roofs on Victorian home in Toronto. > (19 feet by 14 feet times 2) Do they really need to be flat? > Wouldn't it be fairly straightforward to do an upside-down roof? Shouldn´t be too big of a problem (though the flatness might create some), Pavatex of switzerland is offering a system for "on-top" insulation, consisting of low-density fiber boards, but it is more designed for sloped roofs (>20%) and I don´t know if they distribute to north america. Second option, and I´m not glad to say this, shame on me, Rockwool has a product specially designed for flat roofs called "Durock" here in germany... if you can´t get any information on that in Toronto I can check the german informations and get back to you... Yours, Alex ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 05:53:06 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA14571 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 05:53:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA02915; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 05:46:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 05:42:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA02646 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 05:42:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA02642 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 05:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-10-141.cyberzone.net [209.150.10.141]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 05:24:29 -0500 Message-ID: <36BAF66E.E3E@cyberzone.net> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 05:47:26 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Harazim Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulating a roof. References: <36BA0D4A.236D8C3C@atlasinc.on.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > Neil wrote: > I want to take this opportunity to insulate the roof from the outside. However, all the > contractors that I talk to think I am nuts. > > Wouldn't it be fairly straightforward to do an upside-down roof? > > (Some coating to protect the insulation) > Dense Blue (XPS) Insulation (taped??) > EPDM > OLD SHEATHING > JOISTS > Plaster & Lathe Neil, I'm assuming you want to put the insulation on top of the EPDM, based on the order of your list, but one of the most common roofing types for commercial structures is EPDM on top of the rigid insulation. We must do a bazillion square feet a year of the stuff. Also, "flat" is a relative term. If your roof is truly dead flat (less than 1/8" per foot), you can get tapered insulation. This is obtained at pitches of 1/8 to 1/4" per foot or more. Code in our area now requires 1/4" pitch. On new buildings we usually just pitch the structure, but we're always reroofing older flat structures with new tapered. Any good commercial roofer can do this stuff, and they'll probably have to produce some kind of shop drawing showing exactly how the tapered sheets go together. Of course, if your structure does slope more than 1/8" per foot, then it's not really flat, and you can simply use flat insulation (much cheaper). Placing insulation ON TOP of the membrane used to be called an IRMA roof, but I've never heard anything good about them. The concept is that the insulation protects the membrane, and sometimes the insulation has drainage channels in the bottom to allow water to run to the drains. Then ballast or pavers go on top. My question has always been, why would someone go to the trouble of insulating a roof, only to allow 40 degree water to then flow UNDER it on a regular basis? Hope this helps. Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT dpharazim@cyberzone.net www.slamcoll.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 07:30:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA15255 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:30:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA05176; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:24:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:20:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA04866 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:20:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA04862 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:20:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on3-44.netcom.ca [207.181.90.172]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA21457 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:21:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990205071647.00926100@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 07:18:49 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Masonry Stoves & Earthquakes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 08:34 AM 04/02/99 -0500, Speireag wrote: Now, I grew up in Northern California, so I am perhaps more aware >than most people in New Hampshire of earthquake safety. But it never >occurred to me to ask: how to masonry stoves hold up in earthquakes? >Wood stoves would be much easier to repair, I would imagine. It >would be a shame to have to re-build a $5000 to $25000 masonry stove >each time we got a good, hard jolt. Earthquake codes is something our Western members have to deal with, and there is some controversy. The Masonry Heater Association is currently drafting language for inclusion the the new International Residential Code, due out in 2000. You can check for progress on MHA's news page at http://mha-net.org/docs/v8n2/v8n2.htm We've got an engineer doing an analysis right now, and will publish it when it is finished. The concern is not with damage to the heater, but with public safety (I'm an Eastener, and although we have earthquakes up here in Quebec, we don't take them seriously - so I'm just passing along what i've gleaned from others): The idea is not to have the heater fall over on you. It turns out, as you might expect, that that is not a big concern with a squat masonry box. However, if you want to reinforce it ANYWAY, you wrap a wire cage around the core and grout the space between the core and the facing. The cage is anchored to the slab. My advice for New Hampshire would be: "don't worry about it" (remember, I'm an easterner). A bigger concern is with masonry chimneys, and earthquake codes deal with that already. Interestingly, one of our retired members is a 5th generation stove mason from Germany. He said that during the bombing in WWII, the reinforced chimneys toppled over as an intact unit, whereas the unreinforced chimneys collapsed straight down, into a pile of rubble. Food for thought? Best..........Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 07:53:42 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA15495 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:53:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA06159; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:47:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:42:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA05731 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:42:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA05727 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:42:32 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id WUSAa05501; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:43:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <78db6255.36bae759@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:43:05 EST To: Sprngwnd@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Roofing materials Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I have used and recommend Ondura roofing...it's a 50% postconsumer content, performs as well as a metal roof,costs much less and is available in most areas of the country. In addition it can be installed over an exisiting roof so you have no roof tear off....their phone is 800-777-7663 or web site is Ondura Roofing: 800-777-7663 - The New Wave in Roofing Phil Bailey/SustainAbility ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 08:05:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA15614 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:05:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA06669; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:55:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA06411 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:55:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA06407 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:55:33 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id GPBSa01433; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:56:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <13357c98.36baea78@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:56:24 EST To: Pbsustain@aol.com, Sprngwnd@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Roofing materials Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated 99-02-05 07:45:42 EST, Pbsustain@aol.com writes: << I have used and recommend Ondura roofing...it's a 50% postconsumer content, performs as well as a metal roof,costs much less and is available in most areas of the country. >> I have also used this, but isn't is asphalt based ???? mine has been on maybe 6 years on porch and carports and looks fine this type roof has been used for many many years all over Europe also sold at Lowe's Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 08:36:00 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA15899 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:36:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08357; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:29:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:25:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07756 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:25:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07752 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:25:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-16-19.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.131.19]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA10660; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:26:47 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: From: "John Straube" To: "alexander neumann" , Subject: RE: GBlist: Insulating a roof. Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:29:30 -0500 Message-ID: <000101be510b$8fab2240$1383b7d1@jfstraube> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199902050920.KAA27889@mail.privat.kkf.net> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org > [mailto:owner-greenbuilding@crest.org]On Behalf Of alexander neumann > Second option, and I´m not glad to say this, shame on me, Rockwool has a > product specially designed for flat roofs called "Durock" here in > germany... if you can´t get any information on that in Toronto I can check > the german informations and get back to you... What's wrong with rockwool? I think it is a good product The Canadian version of Durock is TopRock by Roxul and Fibrex in Sarnia also has one. I have not been able to convince these folks that they could use their product in a protected membrane roof, but they have nothad the balls to try it yet. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 08:36:36 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA15909 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08482; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:30:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:26:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07828 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07810; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:26:00 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ336149; Fri, 5 Feb 99 06:27:24 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA21616; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:27:09 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:27:09 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Energy Efficiency Listserver , iaq@onelist.com Subject: GBlist: food store (commercial) retrofit Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone know of an interesting retrofit of a retail food store that attempted to address: DSM, energy efficiency, renewable energy, IAQ, and environment? Suggestions would be appreciated. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 08:41:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA15991 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:41:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08827; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:35:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:31:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA08525 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:30:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (wfntnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.37.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08513 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:30:49 -0500 (EST) From: swiftjr@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 8525670F.004A5048 ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:31:42 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: groen88@hotmail.com cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <8525670F.00490B7C.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:31:43 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: GB: solar angles based on location Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk "I guess the trick in this angle and length of the roof is not to get any direct sunlight on the window's in summer and to get all available" sunlight on the windows in winter". Good luck. I have tried to do the same thing in Connecticut for a home I was working on. I think you will find that there is no magic number -- it's a battle of trade-offs. As you increase the overhang (and decrease the cooling load), you will be blocking some of the desirable solar gain during the heating season (not to mention the aesthetic changes you will be making). I think a better strategy is to minimize east and west glass and make use of some of the high tech glazing options that are available. With today's glazing, more than a modest overhang is probably overkill. Joe ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 08:47:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA16359 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:47:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA09269; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:40:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:37:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA08925 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:36:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA08921 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:36:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.200] (pm4a1.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.1]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA23645 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:38:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:38:27 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) [207.136.199.200] from pm4a1.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.1] 207.136.199.1 Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:38:27 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36BAF66E.E3E@cyberzone.net> References: <36BA0D4A.236D8C3C@atlasinc.on.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulating a roof. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 5:47 AM -0800 2/5/99, Dan and Pam Harazim wrote: >Placing insulation ON TOP of the membrane used to be called an IRMA >roof, but I've never heard anything good about them. The concept is >that the insulation protects the membrane, and sometimes the insulation >has drainage channels in the bottom to allow water to run to the >drains. Then ballast or pavers go on top. My question has always been, >why would someone go to the trouble of insulating a roof, only to allow >40 degree water to then flow UNDER it on a regular basis? I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss the IRMA or "protected membrane roof." This protected-membrane roof or IRMA (inverted roof membrane assembly) was originally developed by Dow Chemical as an application for Styrofoam(R). From an environmental standpoint, this approach has some significant merits, including increased membrane life and the ability to reuse insulation during reroofing. Protected-membrane roofs are widely used throughout Canada--where they think a lot more about energy performance than we usually do here in the U.S.--and this is the roofing system of choice even at the University of Alaska in frigid Fairbanks. We ran an in-depth article examining environmental issues related to low-slope commercial roofing in the November 1998 issue of EBN. -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News 122 Birge Street, Suite 30 Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 09:27:52 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17090 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:27:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11327; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:21:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:17:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10628 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:17:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10624; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA18847; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:18:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA29113; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:18:31 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:18:31 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver , iaq@onelist.com, "Ross M. Donald" Subject: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: food store (commercial) retrofit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk BJs is going PV (relatively small scale grid-tied) from a solar division of Conservation Services Group and Ascension Technology - the power is being purchased by AllEnergy. -Ross On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Does anyone know of an interesting retrofit of a retail food store that > attempted to address: DSM, energy efficiency, renewable energy, IAQ, and > environment? Suggestions would be appreciated. Jorg Ostrowski > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Energy Efficient Building list: sponsored > by the Energy Efficient Building Association (EEBA), a > non-profit educational organization > with the assistance of CREST and > Howard Associates # # # > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Send press releases, announcements, and notices of interest to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 To receive the next edition of the Environmental Review, send, subscribe er-list, to ; for Solar Utilities info, send, subscribe solar_utilities ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 09:31:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA17118 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:31:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11930; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:25:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:20:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11030 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:20:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA10938; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:19:54 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ712296; Fri, 5 Feb 99 07:21:26 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA27432; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:21:15 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:21:14 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver , Strawbale Listserver , John LaGamba , Norbert Senff Subject: GBlist: high temperature nontoxic sealants/caulks Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Has anyone found a sealant with mimimum outgassing, that can be used in areas of high temperature (ie. baking oven of a masonry heater, chimney flue and solar oven). Any suggestion would be appreciated. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 09:35:26 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA18064 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:35:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12453; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:28:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:24:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11825 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:24:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11816 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:24:29 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo13.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id JJOOa05309; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:25:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6f5c2fb6.36baff55@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:25:25 EST To: GrenSheltr@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Roofing materials Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated 2/5/99 7:56:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, GrenSheltr writes: << I have also used this, but isn't is asphalt based ???? mine has been on maybe 6 years on porch and carports and looks fine >> Yes, it's a corrugated medium that is impregnated with asphalt and has a melamine coating. So, it's not a perfect product with the asphalt but still has high recycled content and more importantly performs as well as a metal roof without costing near as much. Phil Bailey ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 09:47:31 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA18362 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:47:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA13669; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:40:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:36:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA13088 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:36:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA13080 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:36:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:37:29 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E5B8@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Insulating a roof. Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:37:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk It seems to me that this idea has a lot of merit. The one thing I'd look for is adequate drainage off of the membrane. I suspect this means some sort of drainage layer between the membrane and the foam, spacers, some geotextile matting, etc. Surely someone has done this and can elaborate... > I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss the IRMA or > "protected membrane > roof." This protected-membrane roof or IRMA (inverted roof membrane > assembly) was originally developed by Dow Chemical as an > application for > Styrofoam(R). From an environmental standpoint, this approach has some > significant merits, including increased membrane life and the > ability to > reuse insulation during reroofing. Protected-membrane roofs > are widely used > throughout Canada--where they think a lot more about energy > performance > than we usually do here in the U.S.--and this is the roofing system of > choice even at the University of Alaska in frigid Fairbanks. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 09:56:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA18468 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:56:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14709; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:50:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:46:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14049 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:45:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14033; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:45:34 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ433628; Fri, 5 Feb 99 07:46:25 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA17184; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:46:22 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:46:22 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Renewable News Network Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver , iaq@onelist.com, "Ross M. Donald" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: food store (commercial) retrofit In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Ross: Is there a web site for your helpful message, for which I thank you. Jorg ostrowski ________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Renewable News Network wrote: > > BJs is going PV (relatively small scale grid-tied) from a solar division > of Conservation Services Group and Ascension Technology - the power is > being purchased by AllEnergy. -Ross > > On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > Does anyone know of an interesting retrofit of a retail food store that > > attempted to address: DSM, energy efficiency, renewable energy, IAQ, and > > environment? Suggestions would be appreciated. Jorg Ostrowski > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Energy Efficient Building list: sponsored > > by the Energy Efficient Building Association (EEBA), a > > non-profit educational organization > > with the assistance of CREST and > > Howard Associates # # # > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Send press releases, announcements, and notices of interest to: > Renewable News Network > 44 Norfolk Street > Needham, MA 02492 USA > Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 > > To receive the next edition of the Environmental Review, > send, subscribe er-list, to ; > for Solar Utilities info, send, subscribe solar_utilities > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 09:59:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA18634 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15150; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:53:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:49:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14589 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:49:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14584 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:49:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca (be417@freenet3 [134.117.136.23]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id JAA13406; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:50:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id JAA24404; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:50:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:50:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902051450.JAA24404@freenet3.carleton.ca> From: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: nspeigel@atlasinc.on.ca Subject: GBlist: Re: Insulating a (flat) roof Cc: jfstraube@golden.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Reply-To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hello Neil; I think that IRMAs are a very sensible way to do a flat roof however John Straube has reported that he has seen many situations where the XPS has become severely waterlogged after time. I wonder if installing high-density Roxul rigid insulation under a layer of sloped XPS would solve the drainage problem ? And perhaps instead of stone ballast, patio stones on pedestals to further enhance surface drainage before water gets down to the waterproof membrane ? >Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 16:12:42 -0500 >From: Neil Spiegel >Subject: GBlist: Insulating a roof. > >I am replacing a couple of flat roofs on Victorian home in Toronto. > >I want to take this opportunity to insulate the roof from the outside. However, all the >contractors that I talk to think I am nuts. > >Wouldn't it be fairly straightforward to do an upside-down roof? > >(Some coating to protect the insulation) >Dense Blue (XPS) Insulation (taped??) >EPDM >OLD SHEATHING >JOISTS >Plaster & Lathe ---------- * ---------- Rob_Tom @ ncf.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 10:08:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA18810 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA15809; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:02:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:58:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15429 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:58:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15420 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:58:15 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ394537; Fri, 5 Feb 99 07:59:27 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20318; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:58:29 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:58:29 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Norbert Senf Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Masonry Stoves & Earthquakes In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990205071647.00926100@mha-net.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk You said:"It turns out, as you might expect, that that is not a big concern with a squat masonry box" ____________________________________________________________________ Norbert: What do you mena be "squat"? Will 8 feet do? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 10:31:42 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19190 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:31:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA17349; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:25:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:20:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16725 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:20:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16721; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (8.7.6/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA28468; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:21:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA28010; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:21:52 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:21:52 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver , Strawbale Listserver , John LaGamba , Norbert Senff Subject: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: high temperature nontoxic sealants/caulks In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk What temperature ranges are you looking for? The situations are not the same, of course, in that, there are different systems with their own code requirements and standard practises, e.g. refractory brick will have its associated mortar. As for solar ovens, I've been using silicon. GE RTV Silicon (room temp. vulvanized) caulk is good to 500 degrees F. but the standard product is pretty much the same, although not subjected to the same quality control in manufacture - as it was explained to me, when I asked about why the higher price. My highest solar oven stagnation temp has been 425 F. so I haven't pushed it. On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Has anyone found a sealant with mimimum outgassing, that can > be used in areas of high temperature (ie. baking oven of a masonry heater, > chimney flue and solar oven). Any suggestion would be appreciated. Jorg > Ostrowski > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Energy Efficient Building list: sponsored > by the Energy Efficient Building Association (EEBA), a > non-profit educational organization > with the assistance of CREST and > Howard Associates # # # > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Send press releases, announcements, and notices of interest to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 To receive the next edition of the Environmental Review, send, subscribe er-list, to ; for Solar Utilities info, send, subscribe solar_utilities ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 11:25:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA20319 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:25:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21549; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:17:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:12:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21063 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21059 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:11:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-22-MAX-BTVT-06.ramp.together.net [208.13.204.22]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA01419 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:13:26 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990205111002.007db100@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:10:02 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re:greenhouses and space heaters In-Reply-To: <199902040700.CAA28022@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk re Greenhouses: Martin: I would suggest reading the beginning part of my book, "the Homeowners Compelete Guiode to Add-On Solar Greenhouses and Sunspaces (out of print -- Rodale 1985 -- try inter-library loan) which tries to guide you through deciding if a greenhouse is for you. Others on the list here have given good guidance on this issue! On space heaters, I have specified a small air handler with hot water off a decent water heater, as a substitute for a Rinnai -- this allows ducting to more than one room if you want, cuts the numbers of burners in your house to one from two, and costs look similar for the two options. This also has some possibilities for integrating at least parts of a fresh air ventilation system. Rinnai's also don't allow for an electronic remote thermostat which could have programmable setback, for houses where that's appropriate, and allow for lower temperatures when you're on vacation -- I recall that the "blue to red" thermostat on Rinnai's bottoms out around 50F. I see Empire is back in this market -- anyone have experience with the Empire version of the Rinnai? To Ian Shapiro: If you are willing to share it, I would love to see the data you gather on in-place performance of space heaters. Will you look at the maintenance costs? Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 11:42:31 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA21785 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:42:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA23004; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:34:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:30:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA22425 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:30:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from eshu.request.net (eshu.request.net [207.48.132.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA22419; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from munin.request.net ([208.236.140.172]) by eshu.request.net with ESMTP id <4896-23462>; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:29:41 -0500 Received: from hysave.com ([206.29.173.91]) by munin.request.net with ESMTP id <57438198-2119>; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:29:35 -0500 Message-ID: <36BB1C28.5A453D9F@hysave.com> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 08:28:24 -0800 From: Russ Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver , iaq@onelist.com Subject: Re: GBlist: food store (commercial) retrofit References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hello Jorg, In response to your expressed interest, our representatives have been doing supermarket retrofits for all of the reasons you mention for the past 15 years. There are several documents for your review located at http://www.hysave.com/supermarkets.html Detailed and comprehensive case studies are available at http://www.pnl.gov/fta/7_lrp.htm and at http://www.hysave.com/bangor.html The spread sheets and savings estimates for the "Bangor" project are at http://www.hysave.com/bangapp2.html# There is another URL that you may find of interest related to our use of Thermal Storage in Supermarkets at http://www.hysave.com/storage.html This technology is best suited for new construction where there are high day time peak demand charges to be avoided. There are additional studies conducted by utilies in Canada and New Zealand available on request. Russ Smith DTE Energy Technologies Hy-Save Office (877) 621 2106 toll free "Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: > Does anyone know of an interesting retrofit of a retail food store that > attempted to address: DSM, energy efficiency, renewable energy, IAQ, and > environment? Suggestions would be appreciated. Jorg Ostrowski > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 12:14:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA23661 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:14:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24737; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:06:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:02:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24417 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:02:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24413 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:02:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:03:54 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E5C9@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Air handler/hot water heater. Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:03:53 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Andy and others, I would like to see a bit more discussion of this design, which I think will be very useful in retrofit situations where there is an existing furnace. There was some discussion (but not enough) about this strategy at the Vermont Star Homes conference this week. Joe Lstiburek mentioned that he was using this in his Build America homes in the Chicago area (I think it was Chicago). I'm curious about a few things: * What size/efficiency hot water heater is being specified? A stand alone unit, or a tankless heater with a storage tank? * Are there any problems (or benefits?) from the increased cycling of the water heater? It seems that for many water heaters, especially in areas with hard water, this might lead to premature tank failure. * What kind of air handler are you using? Something off the shelf, or a custom rig? The idea of integrating with an outdoor air ventilation system is intriguing, but I'd hope for an efficient fan, not an energy hog. Comments and annecdotes would be appreciated. Thanks, Mike Rogers > From: Andy Shapiro [mailto:ashapiro@together.net] > Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 11:10 AM > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: Re:greenhouses and space heaters > On space heaters, I have specified a small air handler with > hot water off > a decent water heater, as a substitute for a Rinnai -- this > allows ducting > to more than one room if you want, cuts the numbers of burners in your > house to one from two, and costs look similar for the two > options. This > also has some possibilities for integrating at least parts of > a fresh air > ventilation system. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 12:20:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA23870 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:20:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25881; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:13:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:08:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24857 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:08:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from multi4.netcomi.com (rjbynum@multi4.netcomi.com [204.58.155.204]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24843; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:08:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from rjbynum@localhost) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id LAA07654; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:09:34 -0600 Received: from onelist.com ([209.207.164.217]) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id RAA07648 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:09:32 GMT Received: (qmail 15881 invoked by uid 99); 5 Feb 1999 17:09:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 10387 invoked from network); 5 Feb 1999 16:29:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eshu.request.net) (207.48.132.2) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 5 Feb 1999 16:29:33 -0000 Received: from munin.request.net ([208.236.140.172]) by eshu.request.net with ESMTP id <4896-23462>; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:29:41 -0500 Received: from hysave.com ([206.29.173.91]) by munin.request.net with ESMTP id <57438198-2119>; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:29:35 -0500 Message-ID: <36BB1C28.5A453D9F@hysave.com> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 08:28:24 -0800 From: Russ Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Old-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver , iaq@onelist.com References: Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact iaq-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [iaq] Re: GBlist: food store (commercial) retrofit X-Loop: rbynum@usenergycontrols.com To: rjbynum@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk From: Russ Smith Hello Jorg, In response to your expressed interest, our representatives have been doing supermarket retrofits for all of the reasons you mention for the past 15 years. There are several documents for your review located at http://www.hysave.com/supermarkets.html Detailed and comprehensive case studies are available at http://www.pnl.gov/fta/7_lrp.htm and at http://www.hysave.com/bangor.html The spread sheets and savings estimates for the "Bangor" project are at http://www.hysave.com/bangapp2.html# There is another URL that you may find of interest related to our use of Thermal Storage in Supermarkets at http://www.hysave.com/storage.html This technology is best suited for new construction where there are high day time peak demand charges to be avoided. There are additional studies conducted by utilies in Canada and New Zealand available on request. Russ Smith DTE Energy Technologies Hy-Save Office (877) 621 2106 toll free "Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: > Does anyone know of an interesting retrofit of a retail food store that > attempted to address: DSM, energy efficiency, renewable energy, IAQ, and > environment? Suggestions would be appreciated. Jorg Ostrowski > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the week: "The Health Effects Institute" http://www.healtheffects.org/ The Health Effects Institute (HEI) is an independent, nonprofit organization that is supported by the EPA and industry. This Institute studies the health effects of pollutants and other sources in the environment. Its web site includes access to HEI's Quarterly Newsletter, announcements, background information about HEI, research reports, requests for applications, program summaries, publications, and a directory of HEI's staff. *Moderators Note: HEI probably has the most up-to-date & all inclusive research available on-line regarding particulates & health effects. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 12:20:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA23873 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA25934; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:13:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:08:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24888 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:08:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from multi13.netcomi.com (dkdalton@multi13.netcomi.com [204.58.155.213]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24850; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:08:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dkdalton@localhost) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id LAA02893; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:09:23 -0600 Received: from onelist.com ([209.207.164.217]) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id LAA02884 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:09:18 -0600 Received: (qmail 15881 invoked by uid 99); 5 Feb 1999 17:09:13 -0000 Received: (qmail 10387 invoked from network); 5 Feb 1999 16:29:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eshu.request.net) (207.48.132.2) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 5 Feb 1999 16:29:33 -0000 Received: from munin.request.net ([208.236.140.172]) by eshu.request.net with ESMTP id <4896-23462>; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:29:41 -0500 Received: from hysave.com ([206.29.173.91]) by munin.request.net with ESMTP id <57438198-2119>; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:29:35 -0500 Message-ID: <36BB1C28.5A453D9F@hysave.com> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 08:28:24 -0800 From: Russ Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Old-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver , iaq@onelist.com References: Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact iaq-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [iaq] Re: GBlist: food store (commercial) retrofit X-Loop: dkdalton@aztecenvironmental.com To: aztecfw@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk From: Russ Smith Hello Jorg, In response to your expressed interest, our representatives have been doing supermarket retrofits for all of the reasons you mention for the past 15 years. There are several documents for your review located at http://www.hysave.com/supermarkets.html Detailed and comprehensive case studies are available at http://www.pnl.gov/fta/7_lrp.htm and at http://www.hysave.com/bangor.html The spread sheets and savings estimates for the "Bangor" project are at http://www.hysave.com/bangapp2.html# There is another URL that you may find of interest related to our use of Thermal Storage in Supermarkets at http://www.hysave.com/storage.html This technology is best suited for new construction where there are high day time peak demand charges to be avoided. There are additional studies conducted by utilies in Canada and New Zealand available on request. Russ Smith DTE Energy Technologies Hy-Save Office (877) 621 2106 toll free "Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: > Does anyone know of an interesting retrofit of a retail food store that > attempted to address: DSM, energy efficiency, renewable energy, IAQ, and > environment? Suggestions would be appreciated. Jorg Ostrowski > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the week: "The Health Effects Institute" http://www.healtheffects.org/ The Health Effects Institute (HEI) is an independent, nonprofit organization that is supported by the EPA and industry. This Institute studies the health effects of pollutants and other sources in the environment. Its web site includes access to HEI's Quarterly Newsletter, announcements, background information about HEI, research reports, requests for applications, program summaries, publications, and a directory of HEI's staff. *Moderators Note: HEI probably has the most up-to-date & all inclusive research available on-line regarding particulates & health effects. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 12:27:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24417 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:27:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA26442; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:19:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:15:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA26104 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:15:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA26096 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:15:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:16:32 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C01E5CA@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Air handler/hot water heater--post script Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:16:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk P.S. Also interested in ideas/experience about BTU/hr ranges (for heat, while still providing for reasonable hot water demand)where this approach seems to make sense. > Andy and others, > > I would like to see a bit more discussion of this design, > which I think will be very useful in retrofit situations > where there is an existing furnace. There was some > discussion (but not enough) about this strategy at the > Vermont Star Homes conference this week. Joe Lstiburek > mentioned that he was using this in his Build America homes > in the Chicago area (I think it was Chicago). I'm curious > about a few things: > > * What size/efficiency hot water heater is being specified? > A stand alone unit, or a tankless heater with a storage tank? > * Are there any problems (or benefits?) from the increased > cycling of the water heater? It seems that for many water > heaters, especially in areas with hard water, this might lead > to premature tank failure. > * What kind of air handler are you using? Something off the > shelf, or a custom rig? The idea of integrating with an > outdoor air ventilation system is intriguing, but I'd hope > for an efficient fan, not an energy hog. > > Comments and annecdotes would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > Mike Rogers > > > From: Andy Shapiro [mailto:ashapiro@together.net] > > Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 11:10 AM > > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > > Subject: GBlist: Re:greenhouses and space heaters > > > On space heaters, I have specified a small air handler with > > hot water off > > a decent water heater, as a substitute for a Rinnai -- this > > allows ducting > > to more than one room if you want, cuts the numbers of > burners in your > > house to one from two, and costs look similar for the two > > options. This > > also has some possibilities for integrating at least parts of > > a fresh air > > ventilation system. > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 12:59:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA25307 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:59:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28548; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:51:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:47:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28098 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:47:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28093 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:47:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.97] (newhenyusr0-a55.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.55]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA10132 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:49:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:49:00 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: GBlist: Targa on-demand domestic water heaters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk A friend is considering a Targa, on-demand domestic water heater. It supposedly does better than some of the other models at modulating it's output so that the water stays at a consistent temperature instead of varying with water flow rates. If anyone has experience with these units, either installing them or living with them, I would appreciate comments which I will pass on to friend. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 13:02:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25412 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:02:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28913; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:50:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28409 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:50:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA28401 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:50:28 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id XCSSa03538; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:47:41 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:47:41 EST To: Pbsustain@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Roofing materials Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated 99-02-05 09:25:25 EST, Pbsustain writes: << I have also used this, but isn't is asphalt based ???? mine has been on maybe 6 years on porch and carports and looks fine >> Yes, it's a corrugated medium that is impregnated with asphalt and has a melamine coating. So, it's not a perfect product with the asphalt but still has high recycled content and more importantly performs as well as a metal roof without costing near as much. Phil Bailey >> the main reason I used Ondura rather than metal was that the roofs are for my kennel runs and the thud of the rain is much more soothing to the dogs than the noise on a metal roof ----- I would differ with Phil slightly in that the paint on the metal roof (factory appied) will last a lot longer than that on the ONdura --- but the initial cost difference will probably make up for that Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 13:10:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA25614 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:10:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA29637; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:03:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:59:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA29198 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:58:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA29188 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:58:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-23.netmeg.net [208.139.83.86]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA29977; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:00:01 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36BB31BC.5244AAD1@swinter.com> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 13:00:29 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: CN CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Targa on-demand domestic water heaters References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I saw one installed. It uses 1500 Watts. It seemed to work fine. debra http://home.earthlink.net/~dlombard CN wrote: > A friend is considering a Targa, on-demand domestic water heater. > It supposedly does better than some of the other models at modulating it's > output so that the water stays at a consistent temperature instead of > varying with water flow rates. If anyone has experience with these units, > either installing them or living with them, I would appreciate comments > which I will pass on to friend. > > Chris Neurath > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 14:04:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA27261 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:04:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03030; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:56:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:52:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02550 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:52:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02546 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:52:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id D2QDKHJL; Fri, 05 Feb 1999 13:50:28 EST To: jdo@ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:48:03 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: food store (commercial) retrofit Message-ID: <19990205.134956.3486.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-16,20-27 From: "Beverly A. Weiter" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:27:09 -0700 (MST) "Jorg D. Ostrowski" writes: > >Does anyone know of an interesting retrofit of a retail food store >that >attempted to address: DSM, energy efficiency, renewable energy, IAQ, >and >environment? Suggestions would be appreciated. Jorg Ostrowski > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. Jorg, You might want to contact the people in Austin. I visited a large health food store there which might fit your needs. I think it was a Wholly Harvest or some name like that. It is on the list of recommended sites to visit by the Austin Green Building group. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 14:51:26 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28818 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:51:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06405; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:43:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:39:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05963 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:39:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05952 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:39:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-27-60.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.133.60]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA14035; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:40:33 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: From: "John Straube" To: "Alex Wilson" , "greenbuilding" Subject: RE: GBlist: Insulating a roof. Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:43:18 -0500 Message-ID: <000001be513f$c7d3f960$3c85b7d1@jfstraube> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk When I teach the different approaches to low slope roofing, students invariably ask "Why would anyone NOT build an IRMA?". Here is seems that some people need convincing otherwise. The primary reason to be an inverted roof is to protect the membrane. Exposed or cold membrane roofs have life expectancys of 15 to 25 years, if you are lucky. Some heavy reinfoced PVC roofs may last longer, we dont know yet. Applying insulation over the membrane dramatically reduces the temperature extremes to which the membrane is exposed, puts the vapour barrier on the warm side of the insulation (the opposite of exposed membrane roofs), and protects the membrane from UV, impact, abrasion, etc etc. Hence, it is easy to expect doubling the life of the membrane, likely more. Enough about why, whynot? 1. They require the use of expensive XPS insulation in this country, somewhat cheaper Rockwool is used in Europe (but no where else I know of) 2. They requre ballast to prevent the insulation from floating away and this increase structural loading 3. The foam provides a large amount of fuel for fires -- this may require protection in built up areas. 4. and the most commom problem is that if a leak occurs it is difficult to trace. In exposed membrane roofs, leaks can be found by tracking the saturated insulation under the membrane. IRMA roofs make this much more difficult and THIS is the reason they are being used less in Canada than they have been. Regarding drainage performance, it is widely quoted (I dont know the source) that about 70% of the rain water drains off the top, the remaiing off the bottom of the insul. I dont know why we care terribly, although in flash freeze scenarios it may be a problem to have too much water below the XPS. NEver seen this as a problem. The biggest durability problem is that the XPS gets waterlooged over time, and may need to be replaced after 20 years. OF course this is when the whole roof would need replacing in most roofs. I think that TopRock embedded in the top of a four layer built-up asphaly roof on fibeboard overcomes practically all of the drawbacks at less price than a normal IRMA, but no one listens to me... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Eng. Building Eng Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone 519 741 7920 Fax 519 885 5193 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 15:07:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA29424 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:07:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA07601; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:00:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:55:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07039 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:55:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07020; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:55:27 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ240786; Fri, 5 Feb 99 12:55:48 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA74106; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:54:35 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:54:35 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Russ Smith Cc: aztecfw@ix.netcom.com, GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver , iaq@onelist.com Subject: GBlist: body heat in commercial building (was retrofit) In-Reply-To: <36BB1C28.5A453D9F@hysave.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Russ: Thank you so much for your useful response and experience. Have you or anyone taken maximum advantage of the free BTus from "internal heat gain" in the winter represented by the number of shoppers, beyond computer simulations? In other words, it seems that the BTu contribution may be significant to the winter thermal supply in a well insulated building (and a liability to the cooling load in the summer), if it can be harnessed in an optimal way.I am sure you must have considered this many times. Jorg ostrowski _____________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Russ Smith wrote: > > From: Russ Smith > > Hello Jorg, > > In response to your expressed interest, our representatives have been doing > supermarket retrofits for all of the reasons you mention for the past 15 > years. There are several documents for your review located at > http://www.hysave.com/supermarkets.html > > Detailed and comprehensive case studies are available at > http://www.pnl.gov/fta/7_lrp.htm and at http://www.hysave.com/bangor.html > The spread sheets and savings estimates for the "Bangor" project are at > http://www.hysave.com/bangapp2.html# > > There is another URL that you may find of interest related to our use of > Thermal Storage in Supermarkets at http://www.hysave.com/storage.html This > technology is best suited for new construction where there are high day time > peak demand charges to be avoided. > > There are additional studies conducted by utilies in Canada and New Zealand > available on request. > > Russ Smith > DTE Energy Technologies > Hy-Save Office > (877) 621 2106 toll free > > > > "Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: > > > Does anyone know of an interesting retrofit of a retail food store that > > attempted to address: DSM, energy efficiency, renewable energy, IAQ, and > > environment? Suggestions would be appreciated. Jorg Ostrowski > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription > to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and > select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Interesting Link for the week: > "The Health Effects Institute" > http://www.healtheffects.org/ > The Health Effects Institute (HEI) is an independent, nonprofit organization > that is supported by the EPA and industry. This Institute studies the health > effects of pollutants and other sources in the environment. Its web site > includes access to HEI's Quarterly Newsletter, announcements, background > information about HEI, research reports, requests for applications, program summaries, publications, and a directory of HEI's staff. > > *Moderators Note: HEI probably has the most up-to-date & all inclusive research available on-line regarding particulates & health effects. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 15:22:15 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA29763 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:22:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08498; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:13:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:09:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA08158 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:09:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from enaila.nidlink.com (root@enaila.nidlink.com [216.18.128.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA08152 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:09:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from ddoyle (pm3d2-20.nidlink.com [216.18.131.75]) by enaila.nidlink.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id MAA29625 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:10:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <002101be513a$6371ada0$4b8312d8@ddoyle> From: "Dennis Doyle" To: Subject: GBlist: Rastra blocks Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:03:37 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I am considering building a daylight basement house using Rastra blocks. The company, Ener-Grid, advertises the R-value of their product at 36.44. I read somewhere that there had been an independent test done and the R-value was only in the 7 range. Any insight into this product or a similar one would be appreciated. Dennis Doyle ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 15:30:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA29911 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:30:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA09206; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:22:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:18:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA08762 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:18:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from sbra.com ([206.67.80.99]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08757 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:18:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from sbra.com by sbra.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA01806; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:17:13 -0500 Message-ID: <36BB527E.B262D284@sbra.com> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 15:20:17 -0500 From: "Peter R. Nobile, III, AIA" Reply-To: prn251@sbra.com Organization: Shepley Bulfinch Richardson and Abbott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding Listserver CC: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Subject: GBlist: food store (commercial) retrofit References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------081E96E4EEB238CF8AEF0011" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------081E96E4EEB238CF8AEF0011 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > Does anyone know of an interesting retrofit of a retail food store that > attempted to address: DSM, energy efficiency, renewable energy, IAQ, and > environment? Suggestions would be appreciated. Jorg Ostrowski > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ Try the Dartmouth NH Food Coop, designed by Arrowstreet Associates in Boston. I know they were looking at daylighting issues, but I don't know much beyond their generally good attitude toward sustainable design. Peter --------------081E96E4EEB238CF8AEF0011 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for peter nobile Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: peter nobile n: ;peter nobile email;internet: prn251@sbra.com x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------081E96E4EEB238CF8AEF0011-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 16:00:52 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA00626 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:00:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11433; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:53:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:48:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10638 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:48:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from app1.netzero.net (mail.netzero.net [209.14.79.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10614 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:48:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 22933 invoked by uid 0); 5 Feb 1999 20:50:23 -0000 Received: from pppa8-resalealbanyny1-1r1062.saturn.bbn.com (HELO martin) (4.16.124.19) by mail.netzero.net with SMTP; 5 Feb 1999 20:50:23 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990205155646.00977e80@mail73.cwixmail.com> X-Sender: 1088njr656l7@mail73.cwixmail.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 15:56:46 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Martin Kaufman Subject: Re: GBlist: Re:greenhouses and space heaters In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990205111002.007db100@pop.together.net> References: <199902040700.CAA28022@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 11:10 AM 2/5/99 -0500, you wrote: >re Greenhouses: Martin: I would suggest reading the beginning part of my >book, "the Homeowners Compelete Guiode to Add-On Solar Greenhouses and >Sunspaces (out of print -- Rodale 1985 -- try inter-library loan) which >tries to guide you through deciding if a greenhouse is for you. Others on >the list here have given good guidance on this issue! Thanks, Andy. > >Andy Shapiro >Energy Balance, Inc >Montpelier VT > Say, Andy, I see you're from Vermont. What, in your opinion, is the best type of sustainable housing for Vermont? (I plan to move there this year) I'm thinking earth bermed makes the most sense, but i'm also intrigued with cob and fibrous cement. and i'd love to find a truly energy efficient kit home. also, i have absolutely no confidence that i can build anything myself. under the circumstances, what would you recommend? Martin ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 16:02:36 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA00656 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 16:02:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11703; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:54:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:50:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10817 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:50:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10737; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:49:48 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ576279; Fri, 5 Feb 99 13:50:38 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA39556; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:50:28 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:50:28 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Renewable News Network Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver , Strawbale Listserver , John LaGamba , Norbert Senff Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: high temperature nontoxic sealants/caulks In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Ross: The highest temperature of our solar cooker has been 430dF (empty). The masonry heater will range about 700dF-1200dF (inside combustion chamber), although I have heard of 1500dF. The metal around the baking oven door, I estimate could reach up to 600dF (?) on a second burn. However, the chimney (outside skin, inside the house) could reach temperatures of perhaps 250dF (?). These numbers should be verified by the 2 experts noted above. Thank you for your progressive response. Due to the high temperatures, I am concerned about outgassing from the caulk to be used around the baking oven, chimney and solar cooker. Jorg Ostrowski ___________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Renewable News Network wrote: > > What temperature ranges are you looking for? The situations are not the > same, of course, in that, there are different systems with their own code > requirements and standard practises, e.g. refractory brick will have its > associated mortar. > > As for solar ovens, I've been using silicon. GE RTV Silicon (room temp. > vulvanized) caulk is good to 500 degrees F. but the standard product is > pretty much the same, although not subjected to the same quality control > in manufacture - as it was explained to me, when I asked about why the > higher price. My highest solar oven stagnation temp has been 425 F. so I > haven't pushed it. > > On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > Has anyone found a sealant with mimimum outgassing, that can > > be used in areas of high temperature (ie. baking oven of a masonry heater, > > chimney flue and solar oven). Any suggestion would be appreciated. Jorg > > Ostrowski > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Energy Efficient Building list: sponsored > > by the Energy Efficient Building Association (EEBA), a > > non-profit educational organization > > with the assistance of CREST and > > Howard Associates # # # > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Send press releases, announcements, and notices of interest to: > Renewable News Network > 44 Norfolk Street > Needham, MA 02492 USA > Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 > > To receive the next edition of the Environmental Review, > send, subscribe er-list, to ; > for Solar Utilities info, send, subscribe solar_utilities > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 17:21:28 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA02546 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:21:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16579; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:13:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:08:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA15999 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:08:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA15994 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:08:21 -0500 (EST) From: GreenHome@aol.com Received: from GreenHome@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id WXKOa23166; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:08:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:08:19 EST To: environs.com@juno.com, jdo@ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: food store (commercial) retrofit Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated 2/5/99 11:55:48 AM, environs.com@juno.com writes: <> Actually, it was Whole Foods Market and corporate offices, and was one of the first commercial green building projects under the Austin Green Builder Program. This was a new building, not retrofit. Sue Barnett (sjb@greenbuilder.com) with the Commercial Green Building Program will have more details and contact information. Doug Seiter ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 18:51:08 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA03896 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:51:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21186; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:43:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:39:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA20857 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:39:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20852 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:39:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-22-79.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.79]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA10473; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:40:32 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: From: "John Straube" To: "Dennis Doyle" , Subject: RE: GBlist: Rastra blocks R-value Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:43:19 -0500 Message-ID: <000101be5161$4f82c3c0$4f84b7d1@jfstraube> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <002101be513a$6371ada0$4b8312d8@ddoyle> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk The material that comprises the Rastra product, polystyrene beads as a coarse aggregate for concrete, has been used for quite some time. As such, its properties are fairly well known. The R-value is strongly dependent on density and moisture content, ranging from R1.9 per inch at a oven dry density of about 15 pcf to R0.6 for a somehwat moist product at a density of 50 pcf. Rastra has a density of about 25 to 30 pcf, is expected to have an R-value of about R1.3 per inch dry. Depending on the panel, the Rastra section has about 8.5" to 14" of material, plus some concrete at R0.1 per inch, suggesting that the R-value would be R11 to R18 for the various sections. Their published values based a normal type of test (no ASTM or DIN value however) is U=0.053, or R18.9 which probably includes stucco skins and surface films. This matches quite well with what theory predicts, so I am inclined to believe it. Beware the product getting wet though -- its R-value is sensitve to moisture like many foam and cement products. I am sure the R36.44 value, with the absurd two decimal point accuracy, is simply a mass-enhnaced R-value that may be valid for 12" of adobe too but has little value for comparing systems. However, I also am disturbed at the increasing number of companies abusing,practically misleading the public, the concept of thermal mass. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Eng. Building Eng Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone 519 741 7920 Fax 519 885 5193 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org > [mailto:owner-greenbuilding@crest.org]On Behalf Of Dennis Doyle > Sent: Friday, February 05, 1999 2:04 PM > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: Rastra blocks > > I am considering building a daylight basement house using Rastra blocks. > The company, > Ener-Grid, advertises the R-value of their product at 36.44. I read > somewhere that there had been an independent test done and the R-value was > only in the 7 range. > Any insight into this product or a similar one would be appreciated. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 19:27:38 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA04532 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:27:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA23395; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:20:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:15:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA22491 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:15:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from multi4.netcomi.com (rjbynum@multi4.netcomi.com [204.58.155.204]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22485; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:15:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from rjbynum@localhost) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id SAA01854; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:16:37 -0600 Received: from onelist.com (www.onelist.com [209.207.164.157]) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id AAA01848 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 00:16:35 GMT Received: (qmail 13835 invoked by uid 99); 6 Feb 1999 00:18:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 5956 invoked from network); 5 Feb 1999 20:11:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca) (136.159.244.11) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 5 Feb 1999 20:11:22 -0000 received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ240786; Fri, 5 Feb 99 12:55:48 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA74106; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:54:35 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:54:35 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Old-To: Russ Smith Cc: aztecfw@ix.netcom.com, GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver , iaq@onelist.com In-Reply-To: <36BB1C28.5A453D9F@hysave.com> Message-Id: Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact iaq-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: GBlist: [iaq] body heat in commercial building (was retrofit) X-Loop: rbynum@usenergycontrols.com To: rjbynum@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Russ: Thank you so much for your useful response and experience. Have you or anyone taken maximum advantage of the free BTus from "internal heat gain" in the winter represented by the number of shoppers, beyond computer simulations? In other words, it seems that the BTu contribution may be significant to the winter thermal supply in a well insulated building (and a liability to the cooling load in the summer), if it can be harnessed in an optimal way.I am sure you must have considered this many times. Jorg ostrowski _____________________________________________________________________ > > From: Russ Smith > > Hello Jorg, > > In response to your expressed interest, our representatives have been doing > supermarket retrofits for all of the reasons you mention for the past 15 > years. There are several documents for your review located at > http://www.hysave.com/supermarkets.html > > Detailed and comprehensive case studies are available at > http://www.pnl.gov/fta/7_lrp.htm and at http://www.hysave.com/bangor.html > The spread sheets and savings estimates for the "Bangor" project are at > http://www.hysave.com/bangapp2.html# ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the week: "UL - Indoor Air Quality Program" http://www.ul.com/eph/iaq/indoor UL - Working with regulators, users and industry to develop an Indoor Air Quality Standard. Standards development technical committee meeting schedule for indoor air emissions of equipment, furnishings, products, and floor, wall and ceiling treatments. As a new Environmental and Public Health service , UL has embarked upon the development of an ANSI-accredited Indoor Air Quality Standard. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 19:27:41 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA04538 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:27:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA23406; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:20:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:15:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA22505 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:15:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from multi13.netcomi.com (dkdalton@multi13.netcomi.com [204.58.155.213]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22494; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:15:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dkdalton@localhost) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id SAA04255; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:16:04 -0600 Received: from onelist.com (www.onelist.com [209.207.164.157]) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id SAA04248 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:16:01 -0600 Received: (qmail 13835 invoked by uid 99); 6 Feb 1999 00:18:26 -0000 Received: (qmail 5956 invoked from network); 5 Feb 1999 20:11:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca) (136.159.244.11) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 5 Feb 1999 20:11:22 -0000 received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ240786; Fri, 5 Feb 99 12:55:48 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA74106; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:54:35 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:54:35 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Old-To: Russ Smith Cc: aztecfw@ix.netcom.com, GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver , iaq@onelist.com In-Reply-To: <36BB1C28.5A453D9F@hysave.com> Message-Id: Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact iaq-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: GBlist: [iaq] body heat in commercial building (was retrofit) X-Loop: dkdalton@aztecenvironmental.com To: aztecfw@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Russ: Thank you so much for your useful response and experience. Have you or anyone taken maximum advantage of the free BTus from "internal heat gain" in the winter represented by the number of shoppers, beyond computer simulations? In other words, it seems that the BTu contribution may be significant to the winter thermal supply in a well insulated building (and a liability to the cooling load in the summer), if it can be harnessed in an optimal way.I am sure you must have considered this many times. Jorg ostrowski _____________________________________________________________________ > > From: Russ Smith > > Hello Jorg, > > In response to your expressed interest, our representatives have been doing > supermarket retrofits for all of the reasons you mention for the past 15 > years. There are several documents for your review located at > http://www.hysave.com/supermarkets.html > > Detailed and comprehensive case studies are available at > http://www.pnl.gov/fta/7_lrp.htm and at http://www.hysave.com/bangor.html > The spread sheets and savings estimates for the "Bangor" project are at > http://www.hysave.com/bangapp2.html# ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the week: "UL - Indoor Air Quality Program" http://www.ul.com/eph/iaq/indoor UL - Working with regulators, users and industry to develop an Indoor Air Quality Standard. Standards development technical committee meeting schedule for indoor air emissions of equipment, furnishings, products, and floor, wall and ceiling treatments. As a new Environmental and Public Health service , UL has embarked upon the development of an ANSI-accredited Indoor Air Quality Standard. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 19:46:06 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA04793 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:46:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24319; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:38:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:34:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA24010 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:34:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24006 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:34:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on4-44.netcom.ca [207.181.90.236]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA16142; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:35:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990205193057.00a4b9f0@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 19:32:36 -0400 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Masonry Stoves & Earthquakes Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990205071647.00926100@mha-net.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 07:58 AM 05/02/99 -0700, Jorg wrote: > >You said:"It turns out, as you might expect, that that is not a big >concern with a squat masonry box" >____________________________________________________________________ >Norbert: What do you mena be "squat"? Will 8 feet do? Yes. With a 2 storey heater, you need reinforcing in earthquake country. ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 19:56:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA04934 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:56:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24885; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:48:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:44:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA24506 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:44:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24501 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:44:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on4-44.netcom.ca [207.181.90.236]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19071; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:44:52 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990205193425.00a73800@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 19:42:05 -0400 To: Renewable News Network From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: high temperature nontoxic sealants/caulks Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 10:21 AM 05/02/99 -0500, RNN wrote: (snip) >As for solar ovens, I've been using silicon. GE RTV Silicon (room temp. >vulvanized) caulk is good to 500 degrees F. but the standard product is >pretty much the same, although not subjected to the same quality control >in manufacture - as it was explained to me, when I asked about why the >higher price. My highest solar oven stagnation temp has been 425 F. so I >haven't pushed it. We use standard GE clear type 1 silicone - the kind that smells like vinegar. We've run tests on it and it is good to about 600 F, with intermittent service to 700 F. I talked to a manufacturer of high temp RTV at a wood heat trade show once, and he told me that they take the standard clear GE stuff, add iron oxide filler to it, and sell it as high temp (for $15 per tube instead of $3). I LOVE GE silicone. It is truly amazing what all you can do with it. Its what holds the refractory tile onto the space shuttle, among other things. Best...........Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 21:12:17 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06051 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:12:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29454; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:03:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:59:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA29038 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:59:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA29032 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:59:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp016.cd.centuryinter.net (ppp016.cd.centuryinter.net [209.142.147.88]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA16223; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 20:00:16 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36BBD32E.23B9@centuryinter.net> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 21:29:18 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Reply-To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Insulating a (flat) roof References: <199902051450.JAA24404@freenet3.carleton.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I've had some experience with flat roof in an industrial setting when I was a plant engineer. In the process of looking for a new flat roof for a manfacturing facility I met Dean Kashawagi who was researching roofs for airplane hangars for the US air force. He had a database of performance of a variety of roofing systems that included 1,500 personal roof inspections at that time. He never turns down a chance to look at a roof. Anyway using performance based criteria that includes installing contractor, roofing material and buyer's priorities we ended up buying sprayed on polyurethane (non CFC) covered with gravel for UV protection. This material is vapor permeable and water proof. Dean has kept a piece of this foam submerged for eight years and it has not taken on any water. Failures of sprayed polyurethane roofing occur when they are coated with a non vapor permeable material. No espansion joints are needed, which is a fine feature when you are roofing 50,000 square feet. According to Dean, he inspected a gravel covered sprayed polyurethane roof that was installed in 1966 in New Jersey that was still in good condition. I spoke to a manager of a heat treating plant in nearby Cadillac Michigan who had not been able to find any effective roofing method for the extreme conditions encountered by cold winters over a hot interior. He was very happy with his sprayed polyurethane gravel covered roof. If one does look for an installer it is important that they are factory certified because it is easy to botch the installation which requires a semi load of pumps and guages to get it right. I don't remember the R-vale but it was similar to foam board. At the time, 1992, our roof cost about $2.50 per square foot for 50,000 square feet. Cost will vary depending on the percentage of edge flashing required, roof penetrations do not affect cost. Don't know how green this approach is but at the time it was the most cost effective for the company I was working for. Keith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 21:16:08 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06093 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:16:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA29944; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:08:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:04:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA29529 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:04:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel8.mindspring.com (camel8.mindspring.com [207.69.200.58]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA29524 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:04:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip177.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.177]) by camel8.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA05542 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 21:06:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990206020613.00a4cfe8@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 21:06:13 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Targa on-demand domestic water heaters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 01:00 PM 2/5/1999 -0500, Debra Lombard wrote: >I saw one installed. It uses 1500 Watts... Debra - the Targa is actually gas fired (although it does need a 15amp AC circuit). The standard unit has a min. input of 12,500 btu/h w/ a max. of 150,000 btu/h. The car wash industry loves them - no standby losses & very high delivery - 300gals/hr @ 96% efficiency. We have been trying to get them into low energy new construction homes - but they are not cheap ($1200, if I remember correctly), need a chip upgrade (free) for higher than 125.6 degrees F. output (140 degrees F. max ???) and are not sealed combustion - direct vent only, i.e., need supplemental combustion air from the exterior of the building envelope. Myson makes a sealed combustion tankless heater - does any one have experience with it ?? Also would appreciate any feedback on the recent link to "Using Hot Water Heaters for Radiant Heat" in The Journal of Light Construction, Nov 1998, p. 59-64 (available online at . Nice & concise article, although most of the diagrams had '*some components omitted for clarity' statments attached !!! Other integrated dhw system info, issues & updates as well - please. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel.516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit fax.516/345-3169 511 Carpenter St doughf@mindspring.com Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 5 22:43:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA06973 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:43:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA04253; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:35:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:31:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA03788 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:30:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA03783 for ; Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:30:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.207]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 5343900 ; Fri, 05 Feb 1999 19:52:02 -0800 Message-ID: <36BBB777.D3221E48@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 19:31:03 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frazer Dougherty CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Targa on-demand domestic water heaters References: <1.5.4.32.19990206020613.00a4cfe8@pop.mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I was going to use a hwh in a small floor application but might use a demand heater designed for a spa instead. Seemed potentially ideal both for flow, temperature, cost and space (similar to hwh). Need to look at efficiency. Does anyone have experience in using these heaters in a radiant heating application. john Frazer Dougherty wrote: > Also would appreciate any feedback on the recent link to "Using Hot Water > Heaters for Radiant Heat" in The Journal of Light Construction, Nov 1998, p. > 59-64 (available online at > . > Nice & concise article, although most of the diagrams had '*some components > omitted for clarity' statments attached !!! > > Other integrated dhw system info, issues & updates as well - please. > best -- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 6 06:28:00 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA11255 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:27:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA15407; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:21:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:17:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA15183 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:17:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA15179 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:16:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-10-129.cyberzone.net [209.150.10.129]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 05:58:48 -0500 Message-ID: <36BC5002.5B5D@cyberzone.net> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 06:21:54 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Harazim Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jfstraube@golden.net CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulating a roof. References: <000001be513f$c7d3f960$3c85b7d1@jfstraube> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk John Straube wrote: > When I teach the different approaches to low slope roofing, students invariably ask "Why >would anyone NOT build an IRMA?". Here is seems that some people need convincing >otherwise. A building owner's list of "why nots" almost always trumps a student's "why not"! Owners, and the building occupants they serve, have zero (that's zero - 0.00) tolerance for roof leaks. It is also a fact that roofs leak, for a variety of reasons. Last Jaunuary, we had a series of roof leaks over a radiology floor (EPDM roof), due to careless workmen on the roof, and the net effect was akin to stepping on a nest of fire ants! People in the corporate world lose their jobs over stuff like this. Anyway, they removed the ballast, located and fixed the leaks, and that was that. > Regarding drainage performance, it is widely quoted (I dont know the source) that about 70% of the rain > water drains off the top, > the remaiing off the bottom of the insul. I dont know why we care terribly, although in flash freeze > scenarios it may be a problem > to have too much water below the XPS. NEver seen this as a problem. I still ask the question, what happens to the roof's overall R value when cold water flows over the membrane, below the insulation? > I think that TopRock embedded in the top of a four layer built-up asphaly roof on fibeboard overcomes > practically all of the > drawbacks at less price than a normal IRMA, but no one listens to me... Four layer built-up used to be one of the materials of choice around here, and is very reliable if installed correctly, but lately it seems everyone does EPDM. Building occupants will often stage a revolt over the hazards and smell of a kettle of boiling asphalt. Contractor skill and availability is another issue, and who wants to mop hot asphalt all over the place when they can unroll a sheet and glue it together? Time to go, I have a pot of asphalt on the stove I must get back to... Regards, Dan Harazim Soon to be from Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 6 09:52:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12232 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:52:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19556; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:45:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:41:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19273 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:41:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from apache.vineyard.net (mail@PRIMARY.VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.254]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19269 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:41:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by apache.vineyard.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) id JAA07795; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:43:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from asy10.vineyard.net(206.166.158.29) by apache.vineyard.net via smap/slg (V2.0) id sma007762; Sat Feb 6 09:42:38 1999 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990202102714.0077ad28@sover.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 05:04:51 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, dsagan@sover.net From: John Abrams Subject: Re: GBlist: Percentage of Consumption Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Danny - A while ago you asked: >Something like 20% of the earth's population consumes 80% of the resources. >Does anyone have a more accurate figure than that. I am not that particular >I just want to be precise enough to make a point. Here are a few related numbers from Bill McKibben's book: "Maybe One: A Personal and Environmental Argument for Single-Child Families" which you, as a brand new father, may enjoy for a variety of reasons: An American uses 70 times the energy of a Bangladeshi . . . and twenty times that of a Costa Rican. Those who live in the poorer parts of the world typically are responsible for the release of 1/2 a ton of carbon per year, compared with average 3.5 tons for those in the "consumer nations" and average 11 tons per year for the richest 1/10 of Americans (that's after factoring in the burning of forests and attributing it to the Poor Folks). And finally he says: "For the moment . . . the United States is in a real sense the most populous nation on earth, and the one with the highest rate of growth. Though we add only about 3 million souls a year through birth and immigration, those new Americans are on average forty or fifty times the size of people born in the Third World. My daughter, four at this writing, has already used more stuff, added more waste to the environment, than most of the world's residents in a lifetime. In my thirty six years, I've probably outdone small Indian villages." And the number I'm familiar with directly related to yours (although I don't know its accuracy) is that the US has 6% of the world's population and consumes 30% of the world's resources. Old number, so it's probably conservative. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 6 10:51:17 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12638 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:51:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22565; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:44:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:40:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21804 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:40:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21792 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:40:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-23-109.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.109]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA20023; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:41:56 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: From: "John Straube" To: Cc: "greenbuilding" Subject: RE: GBlist: Insulating a roof. Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:44:43 -0500 Message-ID: <000401be51e7$9d9a8f80$b284b7d1@jfstraube> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <36BC5002.5B5D@cyberzone.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan and Pam Harazim [mailto:dpharazim@cyberzone.net] > Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 9:22 AM > Owners, and the building occupants they serve, have zero > (that's zero - 0.00) tolerance for roof leaks. And this is exactly what recommends the inverted roof approach. The odds of a leak becuase of installation are the same as an exposed membrane (perhaps less, since during finish work the membrane is protected from dropped tools, cigarettes, stones under boots, etc). In service, the exposure conditions are soooo much less severe that breakdown of the membrane is significantly less. Hence, IRMA roofs offer real improved leak resistance. > I still ask the question, what happens to the roof's overall R value > when cold water flows over the membrane, below the insulation? Field measurements by a copule of researchers show R-value reductions of 10% or so. Waterlogged insulation increase heat loss a bit more. This doesnt sound great, but compare the alternative European research has shown that exposed membrane roofs over vapour permeable insulation, like rigid fibrous insualtion, can have average losses of 10% more with the additions of only a few ounces of water per square foot (water from construction, air leakage, vapour diffusion or mini-leaks). Oak Ridge has found that th emajority of exposed membrane roofs are leaking many years before they are replaced -- these slow leaking roofs consume huge amounts of energy evaporating the moistre trapped in the insulation. > Four layer built-up used to be one of the materials of choice around > here, and is very reliable if installed correctly, but lately it seems > everyone does EPDM. Any preformed membrane has significant advantages, and disadvantages. In the Toronto area, 4 ply BUR has been regainign some market share from PVC and EPDM. EPDM, especially ballasted or partially adhered, has generated lots of work becuase of faulty installation and design, especially with regard to shrinkage and wind movement. All of these can be done well. In Quebec, where 5 ply BUR over 1" or more of fibreboard was quite popular in the past, seem to have the least problems (architects there wonder why we in the rest of Canada dont like low-slope roofs -- ours leak, theirs dont). > who wants to mop hot asphalt all > over the place when they can unroll a sheet and glue it together? The odds of one inch of seam in thousands of feet of seams being installed less than perfectly is the problem. It could be argued that four layers of asphalt reduced the risk of coincident flaws in the membrane to near zero. The best answer to this dilema is, IMO,a 2 ply mod-bit which ensures the membrane is a good quality by preforming it and minimizes the probability of a failed seam causing leakage by staggering the two seams. Alas, it is slightly more expensive. Exposed EPDM membrane roofs are widely used because they are cheap and reasonably durable. If a high level of long time reliable performance is demanded, I would always use an inverted roof for its many unassailable benefits. PS, to overcome the flaw of difficult leak detection in IRMA's I would install the membrane over a layer of fibrebaord -- any leak will wet the fibreboard and allow for very easy, fast, and cheap detection from the inside using thermography. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 6 10:51:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12643 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:51:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22663; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:45:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:41:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21853 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:40:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21840 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:40:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-23-109.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.109]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA20058; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:42:01 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: From: "John Straube" To: , Cc: Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: Insulating a (flat) roof Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:44:48 -0500 Message-ID: <000501be51e7$a0c65400$b284b7d1@jfstraube> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <36BBD32E.23B9@centuryinter.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Interesting observation Keith, I am interested in PUR roofs, mostly ones with a silicone coating, and have not really been able to identfy why they are not more popular, given their many performance and buildability advantages. They are not that expensive either. Other than aesthetics (the roofs are not very smooth), can anyone suggest what might be their potential problems? BTW, The R-value will be about R6 per inch, and PUR does take on water, this is just not a problem if vapour permeable coatings are used. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Building Envelope Eng. Building Eng Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone 519 741 7920 Fax 519 885 5193 > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:owner-greenbuilding@crest.org]On Behalf Of Keith Breuker > Sent: Saturday, February 06, 1999 12:29 AM > Anyway using performance based criteria that includes installing > contractor, roofing material and buyer's priorities we ended up buying > sprayed on polyurethane (non CFC) covered with gravel for UV > protection. This material is vapor permeable and water proof. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 6 10:52:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12648 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:52:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22356; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:43:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:39:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21684 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:39:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu (root@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.180]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA21680 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from angle.cacr.caltech.edu (angle.cacr.caltech.edu [131.215.145.72]) by mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id HAA25565 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:40:57 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199902061540.HAA25565@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> X-Sender: mac@pop X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 07:40:36 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Barbara Lamprecht Subject: GBlist: heating a cup of water Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Would anyone know if it is cheaper to heat water for a cup of tea 1) using an electric kettle with automatic shutoff 2) using a (gas) stove 3) what about an instant hot water dispenser, which i suspect is both convenient and expensive to operate? If not, anyone know a web site which addresses that? Thanks, barbara lamprecht ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 6 12:44:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14150 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:44:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28925; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:37:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:32:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28581 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:32:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from send103.yahoomail.com (send103.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28573 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:32:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990206173741.19863.rocketmail@send103.yahoomail.com> Received: from [207.172.108.112] by send103.yahoomail.com; Sat, 06 Feb 1999 09:37:41 PST Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:37:41 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Anderson Subject: Re: GBlist: heating a cup of water To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk ---Barbara Lamprecht wrote: > > Would anyone know if it is cheaper to heat water for a cup of tea > > 1) using an electric kettle with automatic shutoff > > 2) using a (gas) stove > > 3) what about an instant hot water dispenser, which i suspect is both convenient and expensive to operate? > > If not, anyone know a web site which addresses that? > > Thanks, > barbara lamprecht > Or how about a microwave oven? Guess it depends on the cup. And what about a solar oven? _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 6 13:21:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA14925 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:21:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA01031; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:15:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:11:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA00789 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:11:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA00785 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:11:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-66-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.66]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA07718 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:13:14 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990206131315.007dd870@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 13:13:15 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re: water heater+air handler; flat roofs; best homes in Vermont In-Reply-To: <199902060204.VAA29543@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk re air-handlers supplied by water heaters: Water heater manufacturers, I believe Brdadford white, makes a regular power vented not sealed combustion tank-type water heater with a coil submerged in the tank to separate potable water from the potentially Legionnaires-temperature water that can stagnate in the coil. This separation may or may not be needed -- I don't know. I believe that any water heater will work if it has enough capacity, but the devil can be in the details -- these systems should be designed for the application, including thinnking about the building itself. There are companies that make inexpensive air handlers with coils -- First Co (214-388-5751) is one. Coil Co (215-461-6100) is another. Hotter tank temperature would require a mixing valve, to get more hot water capacity for showers etc. Happy bathers during heating season needs to be considered. I have heard a water heater manufacture say that the increased turbulence in the tank due to the pumping of water in and out of the tank keeps more solids in suspension and so may increase tank life. I have not designed one of these with a tankless water heater, but this seems like a reasonable application. Try Bradford White to see if they have an application package or would do any of the design work for you. Yes, choosing the fan and motor for the air handler carefully is a good idea, and takes extra effort. I like to oversize the fan and ducts a little and slow down the blower RPM and duct velocity for lower static pressure and electrical use and more importantly lower noise. re flat roofs John Straube: Where could I find some detailed information on what you suggest? I'm not exactly sure what you're suggesting. I am working on a project that will have a good bit of flat roof. What's the advantage of this over the same roof with EPDM under ballast on top of the Roxul? >I think that TopRock embedded in the top of a four layer built-up asphaly roof on fibeboard overcomes practically all of the >drawbacks at less price than a normal IRMA, but no one listens to me... I'm all ears. > re northern home types Martin -- I am not, in general, a fan of earth bermed (expensive) or cob (poor insulation) or kit homes (maybe expensive and not energy efficient), but what's "best" depends on your circumstances and goals. This is a back and forth conversation that you should have with a designer. This is in part shameless self promotion and in part an issue I have grappled with quite a bit -- there isn't one best. My general preference is toward super insulation with double wall local lumber + dense-pack cellulose, passive solar, solar/wood DHW with backup, good materials, simple, small shapes, etc., but this changes with client and circumstance. Who your builder is and what s/he is comfortable with is also important. >Say, Andy, I see you're from Vermont. What, in your opinion, is the best >type of sustainable housing for Vermont? (I plan to move there this year) >I'm thinking earth bermed makes the most sense, but i'm also intrigued with >cob and fibrous cement. and i'd love to find a truly energy efficient kit >home. also, i have absolutely no confidence that i can build anything >myself. under the circumstances, what would you recommend? > >Martin Andy Shapiro Energy Balance Inc Montpelier VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 6 18:57:38 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA19067 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:57:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA14359; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:51:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:46:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA13914 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:46:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.mindspring.com (smtp2.mindspring.com [207.69.200.32]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA13910 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:46:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from kbell (pool-207-205-130-12.atln.grid.net [207.205.130.12]) by smtp2.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA05960; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:48:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <005101be522b$87287700$0c82cdcf@kbell> From: "Karlene" To: , "Barbara Lamprecht" Subject: Re: GBlist: heating a cup of water Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:43:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk A good question - could we add : 4) A microwave oven _______________________________________ Subject: GBlist: heating a cup of water >Would anyone know if it is cheaper to heat water for a cup of tea > >1) using an electric kettle with automatic shutoff > >2) using a (gas) stove > >3) what about an instant hot water dispenser, which i suspect is both >convenient and expensive to operate? > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 6 20:27:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA19916 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:27:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18135; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:21:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:17:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA17830 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:16:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [209.210.78.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA17826; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:16:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (usr21.cwo.com [207.173.11.21]) by mail.cwo.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id RAA27213; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 17:18:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <007e01be5237$8d984c80$150badcf@default> Reply-To: "Nehemiah I. Stone" From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: , Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #479 Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 16:48:34 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Per the message: ">>> Any solar cooks around? >Hi, If you tell us where you live the chances are good that a solar cook is probably in your area. I'm in The Netherlands. But plan to do my cooking in France." Seems to me that you will waste an order of magnitude more energy transporting your food than you could possibly save by cooking with the sun. ;-) Nehemiah ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 6 23:28:46 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA21769 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:28:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA24047; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:17:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23638 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:17:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23634 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:17:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from tempest.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@tempest.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.93]) by berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id XAA20572 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:19:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by tempest.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with ESMTP id XAA27186 for ; Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:19:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:19:04 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@tempest.rs.itd.umich.edu To: Greenbuilding List Subject: GBlist: facility management companies at universities Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi-- If anyone knows of an university in this country that employs an outside facility mgt. company instead of their own utilities dept. to heat/cool/illuminate their buildings, please drop me a line. I'd appreciate that. Thanks a lot. Cheers, Peter -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greening-of-Dana homepage http://www.snre.umich.edu/greendana -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Reppe e-mail: reppe@umich.edu National Pollution Prevention Center phone : 734-936-2542 University of Michigan fax : 734-647-5841 430 E. University Ann Arbor, MI http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub 48109-1115 U.S.A. http://www-personal.umich.edu/~reppe -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 7 07:27:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA25546 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 07:27:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA03487; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 07:20:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Feb 1999 07:16:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA03228 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 07:16:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA03223 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 07:16:23 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id SCOEa07798 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 07:17:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <91f25b16.36bd8440@aol.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 07:17:04 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Scheduling Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This isn't exactly a green question unless you consider keeping everyone in a project happy to be an environmentally friendly goal. Can anyone recommend a simple scheduling program that does critical path scheduling but doesn't require a masters degree or a twenty week learning curve to use? I need something that produces easy to read, faxable one page schedule information for subcontractors Thanks, Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 7 08:14:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA25797 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:14:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04273; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:08:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:04:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04028 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:04:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04024 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:04:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip28.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.47]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA96 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:07:22 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990207081307.007b88e0@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 08:13:07 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: heating a cup of water In-Reply-To: <199902061540.HAA25565@mailhost.cacr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Barbara The little electric coils that can be dropped into the cup are probably the most efficient because there's a better chance on concentrating the heat into that one cup of water. The electric kettle, gas range and HW dispenser (and the microwave oven offered in later responses) are probably of equal merit because you have hot water left over by design. The hot water that doesn't go into tea right away becomes an ancillary source of heat and moisture. OK during the winter, maybe not in the summer. In stovetop applications (including, i suspect, electric kettles) many people tend to leave water in the vessel. Pre-boiled water does boil quicker. Over time, though, a nasty scale tends to build up, and not a small amount of water (hot and otherwise) and muscle energy (which translates into consumption of various fuels) is needed to remove the carbonates. I have to debrade our kettle on a weekly basis because I drink *a lot* of instant coffee. I'm the only coffee drinker in the house, so brewing is a waste. Oddly enough, I haven't noticed a strong change in the rate of scale buildup since moving out into the countryside. City water and well water are pretty much the same. The gas range, on the other hand, brings a few transcendental values into play. That warm blue glow from the flame is the light of other days. In some cases, days last seen by dinosaurs with eyes the size of dinner plates. That should be worth something. ... Harry At 07:40 AM 2/6/99 -0800, Barbara Lamprecht wrote: >Would anyone know if it is cheaper to heat water for a cup of tea > >1) using an electric kettle with automatic shutoff > >2) using a (gas) stove > >3) what about an instant hot water dispenser, which i suspect is both >convenient and expensive to operate? > >If not, anyone know a web site which addresses that? > >Thanks, >barbara lamprecht > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 7 08:30:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA25936 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:30:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA05054; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:23:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:19:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04675 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:19:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04671 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:19:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip28.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.47]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA101 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 08:22:07 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990207082752.007b8b10@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 08:27:52 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Scheduling In-Reply-To: <91f25b16.36bd8440@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Fred: Take a look at the Softseek Archive (http://traknet.softseek.com/). They have a little bit of almost everything. Just keep in mind that you're dealing with self-limiting principles here. Until software reads minds, you'll need to suffer through data entry (or withstand the burden of untested assumptions). When considering the faxability, by the way, think of a fax modem, too. Just about any of the time management programs will generate print-ready displays. The fax modem (as far as your PC is concerned) is just another printer. ... Harry At 07:17 AM 2/7/99 EST, FUnger@aol.com wrote: >This isn't exactly a green question unless you consider keeping everyone in a >project happy to be an environmentally friendly goal. > >Can anyone recommend a simple scheduling program that does critical path >scheduling but doesn't require a masters degree or a twenty week learning >curve to use? I need something that produces easy to read, faxable one page >schedule information for subcontractors > >Thanks, Fred >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 7 11:14:30 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA27198 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:14:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10366; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:08:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:04:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09992 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:03:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA09987 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-2-187.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.2.187]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA25785; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:05:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36BDBB21.A5436D87@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 11:11:13 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harry Rector CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Scheduling References: <3.0.6.32.19990207082752.007b8b10@paltech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I use Microsoft Project. It has tonnes of features. I ignore almost all of them and just use it to list out tasks, and put them in order . It's all drag and click for creating predecessors. You can use it for a tonne of detail but I don't. It doesn't force you to use all the features, which is it's greatest feature. :) I think you can download a test version from the web. Neil Harry Rector wrote: > > Fred: > > Take a look at the Softseek Archive (http://traknet.softseek.com/). They > have a little bit of almost everything. Just keep in mind that you're > dealing with self-limiting principles here. Until software reads minds, > you'll need to suffer through data entry (or withstand the burden of > untested assumptions). When considering the faxability, by the way, think > of a fax modem, too. Just about any of the time management programs will > generate print-ready displays. The fax modem (as far as your PC is > concerned) is just another printer. > > ... Harry > > At 07:17 AM 2/7/99 EST, FUnger@aol.com wrote: > >This isn't exactly a green question unless you consider keeping everyone in a > >project happy to be an environmentally friendly goal. > > > >Can anyone recommend a simple scheduling program that does critical path > >scheduling but doesn't require a masters degree or a twenty week learning > >curve to use? I need something that produces easy to read, faxable one page > >schedule information for subcontractors > > > >Thanks, Fred > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 7 13:24:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA28397 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16202; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:18:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:13:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA15782 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:12:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from seahorse.epud.net (root@seahorse.epud.net [205.240.25.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15772 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:12:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from dialport4.epud.net (dialport4.epud.net [209.102.14.4]) by seahorse.epud.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id JAA23751 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 09:50:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by dialport4.epud.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BE5283.C62A31C0@dialport4.epud.net>; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 10:22:33 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE5283.C62A31C0@dialport4.epud.net> From: Dean Still To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: solar stove Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 10:21:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id NAA15773 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear Norbert, Thanks for the reply. I think that I'll go up to using tempered glass, our Telkes solar cookers get over 450 F( the wooden interior is charred) and the glass is 30" by 30". At Aprovecho we do almost all the cooking for ten students and ten staff people on sunny days using two of these monsters. The glass has recently been cracking. By the way, the students are building a one ton model kochelofen using pourable ceramic and cob, homemade tile on the outside and a fan to push hot flue gases through a complicated maze, aiming at exit temps. of less than 150F. I'll send you their report if you'd like...Do people ever use fans in masonry stoves both for improved combustion, preheated primary air, and to get exit temps. down? Regards, Dean ---------- From: Norbert Senf[SMTP:mheat@mha-net.org] Sent: Sunday, February 07, 1999 2:30 AM To: Dean Still Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: high temperaturenontoxicsealants/caulks At 05:12 PM 06/02/99 -0800, you wrote: >The glass is cracking... > Probably due to the thermal expansion coefficient of the glass. Stresses are set up if the glass is heated unevenly. Also could be due if there is no expansion room around the glass, and a number of other reasons. Options I can think of include: thicker glass more support for the glass tempered glass - this is used for fireplace glass doors ceramic glass (expensive, but completely heatproof. You can heat it cherry red with a torch and dunk it in a bucket of water. this is because its thermal expansion coefficient is zero. We use a lot of it, and buy it in bulk (3' X 5' sheets) for about $15/ sq. ft.) ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 7 14:08:06 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28905 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 14:08:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA18117; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 14:01:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:57:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17589 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:57:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from x16.boston.juno.com (x16.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17573 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:57:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from shardon5@juno.com) by x16.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D2VJTBQ5; Sun, 07 Feb 1999 13:58:20 EST To: FUnger@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 09:43:56 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Scheduling Message-ID: <19990207.115553.-202917.1.shardon5@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3,5-29 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: sharon j emley Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi, here at Sonora Cohousing which just use an Excel spreadsheet and enter tasks vertically and dates horizontally and it prints out well. The problem is that the architects refuse to meet their dates. Does anyone have a program that solves that problem. Don Arkin On Sun, 7 Feb 1999 07:17:04 EST FUnger@aol.com writes: >This isn't exactly a green question unless you consider keeping >everyone in a >project happy to be an environmentally friendly goal. > >Can anyone recommend a simple scheduling program that does critical >path >scheduling but doesn't require a masters degree or a twenty week >learning >curve to use? I need something that produces easy to read, faxable one >page >schedule information for subcontractors > >Thanks, Fred >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 7 14:48:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA29277 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 14:48:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA20510; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 14:41:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Feb 1999 14:37:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA20084 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 14:37:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [209.210.78.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA20080 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 14:37:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (usr43.cwo.com [207.173.11.43]) by mail.cwo.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id LAA12163 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:38:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <00ce01be52d1$3e329f20$150badcf@default> Reply-To: "Nehemiah I. Stone" From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: my cup of tea Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:37:00 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Per the following excerpt: "Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:37:41 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Anderson Subject: Re: GBlist: heating a cup of water - ---Barbara Lamprecht wrote: > Would anyone know if it is cheaper to heat water for a cup of tea > 1) using an electric kettle with automatic shutoff > 2) using a (gas) stove > 3) what about an instant hot water dispenser, which i suspect is both convenient and expensive to operate? > If not, anyone know a web site which addresses that? > Thanks, > barbara lamprecht > Or how about a microwave oven? Guess it depends on the cup. And what about a solar oven?" The natural gas (NG) stove is the most energy efficient. Although the direct (point of use) efficiency of electricity is extremely high (~99%), electricty uses about three times the source energy for generation, transmission and distribution that would be used by natural gas to do the same job. This is a continental average and varies by locality, generation plants in the regional system and especially whether you are generating on site or buying from the system. Even in California, where higher efficiency generation is both supported by government programs and virtually mandated by laws, the ration of source to site energy for electricity is ~ 2.5:1. Additionally, some generation systems are not only inefficient (relative to NG), but are extremely dirty in a relative way. On the East Coast and in the Midwest, most of the electricity used comes from coal or nuclear plants. I don't want to get into the old argument that nuclear plants are inherently cleaner than any other nonsolar source - if you multiply the amount of pollution times the number of years its around polluting, nucs are probably the worst - but public opinion classes them among the least desirable. Coal is easily the most polluting electricity fuel currently used (doesn't necessarily have to be, but it is). Propane (LPG) is probably a little dirtier than NG, because of the trucking related pollution. it is clearly less energy efficient - besides the extra Btus for transport, there are fewer Btus in an equal volume of LPG than in NG. BUT, you asked about "cheaper." The cost of energy is very roughly related to the efficiency of it, so much of the above is ~directly apropos. However, in the Northwest, where the Frasier and Columbia rivers are dammed almost to the extinction of life within them, electricity is cheap - less than half the 'price' in Calif. But what's the cost? When we say "cheaper" are we talking about the price to me, or the cost to us? If the latter, then your cheap cup of tea should probably be from an electric warmer (or, better yet, a microwave) run on solar power collected on site. A solar oven is impractical at most times that i would want a cup of tea. Nehemiah ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 7 15:27:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA29641 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:27:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA22753; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:21:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:17:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA22370 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:16:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22365 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:16:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on8-30.netcom.ca [209.146.133.30]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12980; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:17:11 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990207144643.00991730@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:14:13 -0400 To: Dean Still From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: solar stove Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <01BE5283.C62A31C0@dialport4.epud.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 10:21 AM 07/02/99 -0800, Dean Still wrote: > >By the way, the students are building a one ton model kochelofen using >pourable ceramic and cob, homemade tile on the outside and a fan to push hot >flue gases through a complicated maze, aiming at exit temps. of less than >150F. I'll send you their report if you'd like...Do people ever use fans in >masonry stoves both for improved combustion, preheated primary air, and to >get exit temps. down? Hi Dean: Yes, I'd be interested in getting any data that you generate. Draft-inducting fans are not generally used in masonry heaters. For one thing, after last year's ice storm here in the northeast, more people are interested in heating systems that don't rely on the grid. As far as getting exit temperatures down, about the lowest you want to get is 220F to prevent condensation in the chimney, which can lead to premature failure in freeze/thaw climates such as the Northeast. Actually, excess air affects efficiency a lot more than stack temparature does. You can have a very inefficient heater with a low stack temp if you have too much excess air. Stack temperature alone doesn't tell you anything about efficiency unless you also have a stack O2 or CO2 number to go with it. Out of a theoretical efficiency of 100% of the heat content of the wood delivered to the heated space, here's an approximate breakdown of the unavoidable losses: combustion (chemical) loss -- CO, tar, soot, etc. -- about 0.5 - 2% latent heat (boiling of water)loss, wood at 20% moisture: 13% Heating stack gases above ambient to provide draft: 5% So, in a perfect system that didn't rely on artificial draft and doesn't have a condensing flue, your maximum theoretical efficiency is about 80%. You need to run about 250% excess air with wood to get clean combustion, so there is also an unavoidable excess air loss. With careful fuelling practices, we can get about 75% in a real world heater, with a stack temp of around 300F and with fairly short flue runs. In case you're interested, we've got a lot of our test data online in Excel format. You might want to check it out to see how the efficiency and emissions calculations are carried out from the observed data. http://mha-net.org/html/lopezx.htm Best...........Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 7 16:10:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA00168 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:10:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24827; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:04:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:00:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA24463 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:59:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix2.interkan.net (root@unix2.interkan.net [12.13.79.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA24458 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:59:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from interkan.net (pm3-mhk58.interkan.net [12.13.79.88]) by unix2.interkan.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/jpw@interkan.net) with ESMTP id PAA03269 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:01:21 -0600 Message-ID: <36BC923A.A22A1EE4@interkan.net> Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 13:04:26 -0600 From: Tamara & Bill Dorsett Reply-To: dorsett@interkan.net Organization: Health Options X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Small Platinum Cat heaters Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk     Thanks for all of your suggestions on small space heaters.

    Just recieved product lit for one that is different than others suggested: The Platinum Cat. Rated at 5200Btuh these are power (120 or 24VDC) vented through a 1.5-2" Sched. 40 PVC pipe (up, down, sideways or through the wall), are thermostatically controlled catalytic space heaters. The power requirements @ 120VAC are: starting, 720mA; running, 340mA and stand-by, 120mA. Amp @ 24VDC required is: starting, 3.6 amps; running, 1.7; and stand-by , 0.6 (assuming the same wattage requirements as 120VAC). Except for stand-by which could be shut off between uses, these power requirements put these heaters in the range of most PV or wind systems.
   Since these are predominently  radiant, the theory is that these maintain comfort levels at 6-10 dF lower than comparable convection-type heaters. At $+-375 these seem more versital, cleaner, and much less expensve than efficient wood burners. The only apparant down side seems to be the lack of provision for external combustion air.

Does anyone have experience or is there other scuttlebutt about Platinum Cats?

They are manufactured by Thermal Systems, Inc., 2757 29th Ave. SW, Tumwater, WA  98512
Phone:(360)352-0539; e-mail, catheater@mail.tss.net; http://users.tss.net/thermal

Bill Dorsett
dorsett@interkan.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 7 17:24:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA00879 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:24:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA28108; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:17:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:13:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA27748 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:13:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from dark.brown.edu (dark.brown.edu [128.148.128.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA27744 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:13:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from monsoon ([128.148.119.175]) by dark.brown.edu (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id RAA21554 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:15:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902072215.RAA21554@dark.brown.edu> X-Sender: Charlotte_Matthews@postoffice.brown.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 17:16:34 -0500 To: From: Charlotte Matthews Subject: Re: GBlist: my cup of tea In-Reply-To: <00ce01be52d1$3e329f20$150badcf@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This is actually a question I've been asking myself recently, as well. I rent a room on the top floor of a house, where the provided cooking facility consists solely of two electric hot plates and a microwave. My predicament is whether to buy a kettle for the electric "stove top", a large glass pot for microwaving greater quantities than a single cup, or investing in an electric kettle. The electric kettle could take care of itself if I left the room, while I find myself anxiously plastered to the microwave window to watch for boiling, and nervous about ever leaving the hot plate unattended. Therefore, out of convenience, I am leaning towards the electric kettle. Yet, I can hear my British father, who takes the production of tea very seriously, suggesting that the taste of the water will be affected, in time, by the weathered electric coils. In addition buying another appliance, just for the purpose of boiling water, sounds excessively consumptive and wasteful. I am quite sure this is really only a dilemma of "Green principles" rather than consequential energy use. But believing that the little sacrifices count, if only because they condition you for the greater ones; is there a real argument for sticking to the traditional kettle on the stove top and not succumbing to new, hassle-free, yet (single) task-specific appliances? -Hoping for an extremist to cry the case of the conventional kettle, or a pragmatist to scoff my head, tell me to lighten up, and suggest that I just go out and get something that boils water. Charlotte >Per the following excerpt: >"Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 09:37:41 -0800 (PST) >From: Gary Anderson >Subject: Re: GBlist: heating a cup of water > >- ---Barbara Lamprecht wrote: >> Would anyone know if it is cheaper to heat water for a cup of tea >> 1) using an electric kettle with automatic shutoff >> 2) using a (gas) stove >> 3) what about an instant hot water dispenser, which i suspect is >both convenient and expensive to operate? >> If not, anyone know a web site which addresses that? >> Thanks, >> barbara lamprecht >> >Or how about a microwave oven? Guess it depends on the cup. >And what about a solar oven?" > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 7 18:50:37 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA01848 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:50:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA01930; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:44:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:40:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA01570 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:40:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA01532 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:39:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.102.221]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA11513 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:47:08 +0000 Message-ID: <36BD8185.1627CD11@which.net> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 12:05:26 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: heating a cup of water X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I assume you are concerned with fuel consumption rather than cost. I have boiled 1 litre of water in a pan with the lid on using natural gas. This required approx. 1 ft3 of gas according to my meter which I can convert to 0.31 kWh using the conversion factor supplied by the gas supplier on my bill. The automatic electric kettle consumed 0.13 kWhrs. Unless you obtain your electricity from a green source in which case the electric kettle wins hands down, the fuel consumption is approximately the same after taking power station losses into account (they waste twice as much as they produce on average). A microwave would be very inconvenient since you can't tell when the water is boiling, but I would expect it to be similar to the electric kettle, unless you deliberately set the timer longer than required in which case it will obviously consume more. Other things to consider are the lifetime of the electric kettle (not long) and that a gas kettle does not switch itself off and will therefore consume additional gas waiting for someone to do so. I can't imagine an instant hot water dispenser offering boiling water. Hot yes, boiling no. Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 8 02:57:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA06840 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 02:57:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA25611; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 02:50:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Feb 1999 02:46:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA25333 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 02:46:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from seahorse.epud.net (root@seahorse.epud.net [205.240.25.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA25329 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 02:46:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from dialport81.epud.net (dialport81.epud.net [209.102.14.81]) by seahorse.epud.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id XAA29241 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:24:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by dialport81.epud.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BE52F5.81C3A3A0@dialport81.epud.net>; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:56:41 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE52F5.81C3A3A0@dialport81.epud.net> From: Dean Still To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: RE: student's stove project Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:55:57 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id CAA25330 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear Norbert, It is really wonderful of you to help us, the design class and me, with the masonry stove. After reading your message the students changed the design and are going to put a manual bypass in the flue runs so that during a power outage the stove might be run without a fan. What do you think of the pellet stove with exit temps. at little more than room temp. Do they have trouble with condensation/freezing? ...I assigned your data as homework! Thanks so much, Dean ---------- From: Norbert Senf[SMTP:mheat@mha-net.org] Sent: Sunday, February 07, 1999 11:14 AM To: Dean Still Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: solar stove At 10:21 AM 07/02/99 -0800, Dean Still wrote: > >By the way, the students are building a one ton model kochelofen using >pourable ceramic and cob, homemade tile on the outside and a fan to push hot >flue gases through a complicated maze, aiming at exit temps. of less than >150F. I'll send you their report if you'd like...Do people ever use fans in >masonry stoves both for improved combustion, preheated primary air, and to >get exit temps. down? Hi Dean: Yes, I'd be interested in getting any data that you generate. Draft-inducting fans are not generally used in masonry heaters. For one thing, after last year's ice storm here in the northeast, more people are interested in heating systems that don't rely on the grid. As far as getting exit temperatures down, about the lowest you want to get is 220F to prevent condensation in the chimney, which can lead to premature failure in freeze/thaw climates such as the Northeast. Actually, excess air affects efficiency a lot more than stack temparature does. You can have a very inefficient heater with a low stack temp if you have too much excess air. Stack temperature alone doesn't tell you anything about efficiency unless you also have a stack O2 or CO2 number to go with it. Out of a theoretical efficiency of 100% of the heat content of the wood delivered to the heated space, here's an approximate breakdown of the unavoidable losses: combustion (chemical) loss -- CO, tar, soot, etc. -- about 0.5 - 2% latent heat (boiling of water)loss, wood at 20% moisture: 13% Heating stack gases above ambient to provide draft: 5% So, in a perfect system that didn't rely on artificial draft and doesn't have a condensing flue, your maximum theoretical efficiency is about 80%. You need to run about 250% excess air with wood to get clean combustion, so there is also an unavoidable excess air loss. With careful fuelling practices, we can get about 75% in a real world heater, with a stack temp of around 300F and with fairly short flue runs. In case you're interested, we've got a lot of our test data online in Excel format. You might want to check it out to see how the efficiency and emissions calculations are carried out from the observed data. http://mha-net.org/html/lopezx.htm Best...........Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 8 03:17:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA07018 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 03:17:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA26278; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 03:11:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Feb 1999 03:07:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA25929 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 03:07:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from seahorse.epud.net (root@seahorse.epud.net [205.240.25.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA25922 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 03:07:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from dialport81.epud.net (dialport111.epud.net [209.102.14.111]) by seahorse.epud.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id XAA29348 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:45:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by dialport81.epud.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BE52F8.5223D680@dialport81.epud.net>; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:16:49 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE52F8.5223D680@dialport81.epud.net> From: Dean Still To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: RE: solar stove Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:16:27 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id DAA25926 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear Sue The Maria Telkes model solar ovenaims a square of glass, say 24" by 24" at the average sun position, surrounds the square with reflectors 1.4 times as long as the glass, at 120 degree angle to the glass. Fill in the four triangular corners as well. Makes the reflectors stronger. The box is insulated to R-10 or so and the door made pretty airtight. Make the box as high as the pot that you'll use. Paint the inside all black, put the pot on a low mass metal plate to take advantage of conduction. Use tin foil as well as insulation to reflect IR. It is hard to get oil up to 350F without using a movable reflector and that's a lot of trouble, the greater the concentration the more often it needs to move, tracking the sun. My preference is to have the food be the only thermal load, then you don't have to worry about heat transfer percentages. They are very low anyway inside a box cooker 'cause it's so hot and losses are tremendous through the glass. Your lucky to get 20% into the pot from the total of about 200 Btu/sf/hour. A Telkes with 24 by 24" glass will cook about 6 pounds of food in about the same time as a conventional oven, including water. If the weight of food goes up the time increases. Maria Telkes, the Mother of Appropriate Technology, designed a good oven, we love ours. Dean ---------- From: Susanne Machler[SMTP:greensue@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, February 07, 1999 11:13 PM To: dstill@epud.org Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: solar stove Hi Dean thinking of building a stove too, any pics, that report or pointers would help.. I am thinking of a hot oil model. any weblinks or resources? Thanks, Sue From: Dean Still To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: GBlist: RE: solar stove Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 10:21:48 -0800 Dear Norbert, Thanks for the reply. I think that I'll go up to using tempered glass, our Telkes solar cookers get over 450 F( the wooden interior is charred) and the glass is 30" by 30". At Aprovecho we do almost all the cooking for ten students and ten staff people on sunny days using two of these monsters. The glass has recently been cracking. By the way, the students are building a one ton model kochelofen using pourable ceramic and cob, homemade tile on the outside and a fan to push hot flue gases through a complicated maze, aiming at exit temps. of less than 150F. I'll send you their report if you'd like...Do people ever use fans in masonry stoves both for improved combustion, preheated primary air, and to get exit temps. down? Regards, Dean ---------- From: Norbert Senf[SMTP:mheat@mha-net.org] Sent: Sunday, February 07, 1999 2:30 AM To: Dean Still Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: high temperaturenontoxicsealants/caulks At 05:12 PM 06/02/99 -0800, you wrote: >The glass is cracking... > Probably due to the thermal expansion coefficient of the glass. Stresses are set up if the glass is heated unevenly. Also could be due if there is no expansion room around the glass, and a number of other reasons. Options I can think of include: thicker glass more support for the glass tempered glass - this is used for fireplace glass doors ceramic glass (expensive, but completely heatproof. You can heat it cherry red with a torch and dunk it in a bucket of water. this is because its thermal expansion coefficient is zero. We use a lot of it, and buy it in bulk (3' X 5' sheets) for about $15/ sq. ft.) ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 8 05:11:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA07959 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:11:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA29122; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:05:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:01:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA28711 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:01:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA28707 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:01:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.101.10]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA6321 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:08:24 +0000 Message-ID: <36BEB6B0.C8F8131C@which.net> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:04:33 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: my cup of tea X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Don't worry about this. There is hardly a home in the UK without a cordless automatic electric kettle. Fill it, switch it on and walk away. Great. Malcolm Scott ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 8 05:13:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA07975 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:13:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA29267; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:07:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:03:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA28868 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:03:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA28863 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:03:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from default ([194.168.101.10]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA6476 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:10:37 +0000 Message-ID: <36BEB737.1E9201FB@which.net> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:06:47 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: my cup of tea X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Don't worry about this. There is hardly a home in the UK without a cordless automatic electric kettle. Fill it, switch it on and walk away. Great. Malcolm Scott Charlotte Matthews wrote: Yet, I can hear my British father, who takes the production of tea very seriously, suggesting that the taste of the water will be affected, in time, by the weathered electric coils. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 8 08:19:05 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA09090 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:19:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04958; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:12:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:08:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04523 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04519 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:08:19 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ951854; Mon, 8 Feb 99 06:09:38 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA07058; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 06:09:22 -0700 Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 06:09:22 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Dean Still Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: RE: solar stove In-Reply-To: <01BE52F8.5223D680@dialport81.epud.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk You said:put the pot on a low mass metal plate to take advantage of conduction." ___________________________________________________________________________ Dean: Two additional important items based on daily use. Let black paint outgas before using it for food and add bricks for thermal mass. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 8 10:18:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11447 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:18:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10839; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:11:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:07:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10447 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:07:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from send102.yahoomail.com (send102.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.90]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10439 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:07:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990208151144.23340.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> Received: from [206.15.41.132] by send102.yahoomail.com; Mon, 08 Feb 1999 07:11:44 PST Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 07:11:44 -0800 (PST) From: GERRY Subject: GBlist: Whole house ventilation To: Greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I have a three story older home without an attic and would like to install a whole house fan. I cannot find any product that would have the power plus being protected on the outside with a finished louver for the inside. There are plenty of ventilation devices but they all require an attic as an input or output. Is this a "special" or is there a commercial product available? Thanks for any info == GERRY _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 8 11:09:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13451 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:09:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14613; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:03:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:59:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14155 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:58:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.voyager.net (mail2.voyager.net [209.153.128.77]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA14148 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:58:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (as4-dial43.lnng.mi.voyager.net [216.93.20.137]) by mail2.voyager.net (8.9.1/Voyager-MailX) with SMTP id LAA25866 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:00:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36BED628.D5C@voyager.net> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 12:18:48 +0000 From: Pat Ballentine Reply-To: ballentine@voyager.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Zimbabwe solar? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This term I have 2 Zimbabwean students in my Energy Efficient Design class and Alternative Structures class. I would like to offer them something they can take home and use. Since we're in Michigan and I teach cold climate design, I am having to find information I don't usually work with. I'd like any resources you folks could recommend. I'm looking specifically for solar tables (sun angles) which would deal with locations in the tropics. Zimbabwe is between 15 degrees south latitude and 22 degrees south latitude. My tables for N. America don't go further south than 24 degrees N. latitude. Any Autrailian resources on the WWW? Thanks in advance for the help. Pat Ballentine ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 8 11:26:34 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13790 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:26:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15878; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:19:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:15:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA15431 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:15:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from graytwo.jngray.com (ftp.jngray.com [207.201.192.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15427 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by graytwo.jngray.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id <1KF4HFTJ>; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:16:50 -0500 Message-ID: <9C3855B267A6D211B8F900A0249A1760205BAF@graytwo.jngray.com> From: David Vickers To: "'ballentine@voyager.net'" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: Zimbabwe solar? Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:16:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Pat, Try following this link and see if it is of any help. http://solstice.crest.org/staff/ceg/sunangle/index.html David Vickers dvickers@jngray.com James N. Gray Company 10 Quality Street Lexington, Kentucky 40507-1450 606.281.9253 606.252.5300 fax http://www.jngray.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Pat Ballentine [SMTP:ballentine@voyager.net] > Sent: Monday, February 08, 1999 7:19 AM > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: Zimbabwe solar? > > This term I have 2 Zimbabwean students in my Energy Efficient Design > class and Alternative Structures class. I would like to offer them > something they can take home and use. Since we're in Michigan and I > teach cold climate design, I am having to find information I don't > usually work with. > I'd like any resources you folks could recommend. I'm looking > specifically for solar tables (sun angles) which would deal with > locations in the tropics. Zimbabwe is between 15 degrees south latitude > and 22 degrees south latitude. My tables for N. America don't go further > south than 24 degrees N. latitude. > > Any Autrailian resources on the WWW? > Thanks in advance for the help. > Pat Ballentine > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 8 12:06:37 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14739 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:06:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19214; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:00:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:56:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18740 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:56:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18736 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:55:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from nbc (tmanney@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.5]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1/mailhub+tar) with ESMTP id KAA26963; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:57:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost by nbc (8.8.8+Sun/1.34) id KAA17600; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:57:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:57:30 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Manney X-Sender: tmanney@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu To: Pat Ballentine cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Zimbabwe solar? In-Reply-To: <36BED628.D5C@voyager.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk We have a program called UVRISK for modeling solar UV exposure. It contains a calculator for sun angle that works for any Lat/Lon that you enter. It is available by FTP from the GENE web site listed below. Tom Manney tmanney@ksu.edu Dept. of Physics & Division of Biology Kansas State University GENE Web site: http://www.phys.ksu.edu/gene ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 8 13:13:53 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16442 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:13:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24383; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:07:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:02:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23841 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:02:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from pct.edu (wpgate.pct.edu [12.4.137.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23833 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:02:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from Penn#032#College-Message_Server by pct.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Mon, 08 Feb 1999 13:05:37 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 13:05:27 -0500 From: "Steve McCarthy" To: Subject: Fwd: GBlist: Retrofitting mass in wood frame construction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Received: from solstice.crest.org by pct.edu; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:58:03 -0500 Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14155; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:54:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:50:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA13767 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:50:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from pct.edu (wpgate.pct.edu [12.4.137.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13763 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:50:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from Penn#032#College-Message_Server by pct.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:53:27 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:53:29 -0500 From: "Steve McCarthy" To: Subject: GBlist: Retrofitting mass in wood frame construction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id KAA13764 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I live in a 100 year old , two story , wood framed house in northern Pennsylvania. The house has been heated with wood since it was built and I'm now using a single small cast iron stove to heat the entire house. I am planning to renovate the room containing the wood heater this summer. Something that was recently mentioned in the discussion of the house in Vermont without a furnace caught my attention. It was the possibility of using double drywall to increase the mass of a building. The room in question is 22x16 with 8 ft walls. Believe it or not all the wall surfaces are wood and lots of it. The walls have 2 one inch layers of wood on the interior. The cavity is 3.5 inches filled with high density cellulose on the exterior walls. The outside of the frame has two one inch layers of wood. Like I said, lots of wood. The ceiling is also wood although they scrimped there ,using only one inch of tongue and groove. The entire interior is coated with several layers of old, and I assume, lead based paint. I occasionally experience overheating in this room when using the wood heater. I plan to encapsulate the painted surfaces in this room with Sheetrock. My questions to the group: will using one full inch of sheetrock instead of a half have any effect on the occasional overheating problem? Are there any other benefits that would result from double thick sheetrock? I don't want to use the additional materials unless it is beneficial from an energy perspective. I should add that this room is exposed to the exterior on one long and one short wall and has a conditioned space above it and an unheated basement below it. Thanks-Steve McCarthy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 8 13:41:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA17288 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:41:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26806; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:34:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:29:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25832 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:28:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from eshu.request.net (eshu.request.net [207.48.132.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25818; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:28:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from munin.request.net ([208.236.140.172]) by eshu.request.net with ESMTP id <1499-24130>; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:29:45 -0500 Received: from hysave.com ([206.29.174.102]) by munin.request.net with ESMTP id <57442649-16535>; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:29:42 -0500 Message-ID: <36BF2CD5.21D4A80A@hysave.com> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:28:37 -0800 From: Russ Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: aztecfw@ix.netcom.com, GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver , iaq@onelist.com Subject: GBlist: Re: body heat in commercial building (was retrofit) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk The simple answer to your question Jorg is a "qualified" yes. Unfortunately there are no hard and fast rules or "one size fits all" strategies that we can apply universally. When doing any kind of conservation work in a building, particularly supermarkets, one must consider all sources of heat gain (lights, solar, people, hot deli equipment, in store bakeries etc.) or loss (building envelope, spillage from refrigerated cases, open doors, loading bays etc.). The trick to having a comfortable and efficient shopping or working environment is to use the proper control strategy and equipment to get the warm or cool air to where it is needed. There are several methods that we have used over the years to accomplish the above, each being dependent on the location, particular building operating character and requirements. Another thing that must be taken into consideration is humidity control. Here again we have developed and employed methods to maintain and control the desired shopping and working environment. Regards Russ "Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: > Russ: Thank you so much for your useful response and experience. Have > you or anyone taken maximum advantage of the free BTus from "internal > heat gain" in the winter represented by the number of shoppers, > beyond computer simulations? In other words, it seems that the BTu > contribution may be significant to the winter thermal supply in a well > insulated building (and a liability to the cooling load in the summer), > if it can be harnessed in an optimal way.I am sure you must have > considered this many times. Jorg ostrowski > _____________________________________________________________________ > On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Russ Smith wrote: > > > > > From: Russ Smith > > > > Hello Jorg, > > > > In response to your expressed interest, our representatives have been doing > > supermarket retrofits for all of the reasons you mention for the past 15 > > years. There are several documents for your review located at > > http://www.hysave.com/supermarkets.html > > > > Detailed and comprehensive case studies are available at > > http://www.pnl.gov/fta/7_lrp.htm and at http://www.hysave.com/bangor.html > > The spread sheets and savings estimates for the "Bangor" project are at > > http://www.hysave.com/bangapp2.html# > > > > There is another URL that you may find of interest related to our use of > > Thermal Storage in Supermarkets at http://www.hysave.com/storage.html This > > technology is best suited for new construction where there are high day time > > peak demand charges to be avoided. > > > > There are additional studies conducted by utilies in Canada and New Zealand > > available on request. > > > > Russ Smith > > DTE Energy Technologies > > Hy-Save Office > > (877) 621 2106 toll free > > > > > > > > "Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: > > > > > Does anyone know of an interesting retrofit of a retail food store that > > > attempted to address: DSM, energy efficiency, renewable energy, IAQ, and > > > environment? Suggestions would be appreciated. Jorg Ostrowski > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription > > to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and > > select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Interesting Link for the week: > > "The Health Effects Institute" > > http://www.healtheffects.org/ > > The Health Effects Institute (HEI) is an independent, nonprofit organization > > that is supported by the EPA and industry. This Institute studies the health > > effects of pollutants and other sources in the environment. Its web site > > includes access to HEI's Quarterly Newsletter, announcements, background > > information about HEI, research reports, requests for applications, program summaries, publications, and a directory of HEI's staff. > > > > *Moderators Note: HEI probably has the most up-to-date & all inclusive research available on-line regarding particulates & health effects. > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 8 14:27:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA18372 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:27:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01040; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:20:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:16:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA00585 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:16:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00581 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:16:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA01436 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:17:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-wa50-21.ix.netcom.com(207.220.40.85) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma001388; Mon Feb 8 13:16:42 1999 Message-ID: <001c01be5354$26f12a10$5528dccf@upesi> From: "Russel DeLombard" To: "Green Building" Subject: Re: GBlist: Zimbabwe solar? Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:14:07 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Pat, You might try contacting Solar Energy International (SEI) at http://solarenergy.org/mission.html. An excerpt from one of the project descriptions on their web site includes the following: "SEI placed a graduate of its Photovoltaic Design and Installation Workshop and the Advanced PV Workshop with a volunteer position for Energy Alternatives Africa. The volunteer worked for one year in Kenya, Tanzania, and Mali teaching the practical use of solar, and helped train people in the installation of solar photovoltaic systems." I don't know anything about the organization except that they have worked with NASA on community projects in the past. My brother is an electrical engineer with NASA and worked on many projects in the '80s to bring solar energy to remote African, Indonesian and SW Native American communities. I tried looking at the NASA web site, but it is so vast and space oriented that the above is all I could come up with in a cursory search. If you wish to pursue a contact with my brother further, contact me directly at the address below. Russel DeLombard, Architect Avatar Construction Inc. Box 11257 Bainbridge Island WA 98110 (206) 842-9350 Phone/FAX -----Original Message----- From: Pat Ballentine To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Monday, February 08, 1999 4:02 PM Subject: GBlist: Zimbabwe solar? >This term I have 2 Zimbabwean students in my Energy Efficient Design >class and Alternative Structures class. I would like to offer them >something they can take home and use. Since we're in Michigan and I >teach cold climate design, I am having to find information I don't >usually work with. >I'd like any resources you folks could recommend. I'm looking >specifically for solar tables (sun angles) which would deal with >locations in the tropics. Zimbabwe is between 15 degrees south latitude >and 22 degrees south latitude. My tables for N. America don't go further >south than 24 degrees N. latitude. > >Any Autrailian resources on the WWW? >Thanks in advance for the help. >Pat Ballentine > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 8 15:48:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA20277 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:48:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06963; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:41:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:36:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05936 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:36:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05923 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:36:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on5-19.netcom.ca [207.181.91.83]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01790; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:36:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990208152650.00a58e50@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 15:33:34 -0400 To: From: Norbert Senf Subject: GBlist: RE: Water heaters against code Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <000001be5392$b8094b20$3f81b7d1@jfstraube> References: <000301be51df$f9f6a3c0$8a6aafce@hobbitbot> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 01:42 PM 08/02/99 -0500, John Straube wrote: (snip) > >I am surpised that codes allow the combination of space heating and >domestic hot water on the same circuit. Although this may be allowed, >is it good practice? Will there not be potential problems with >stagnation in heating lines and increased mineral deposition? > >Are we going full circle in this discussion? I think we know that HWH >can be used for space heating if used on a seperate heating loop. >Now the remaining question for me is: is it a good idea to use one HWH >for both domestic hot water and space heating and under what >conditons. I want to know the reasons for any answers more than the >answers themselves. > John raises some interesting points. I don't have any first hand experience myself, but have spoken with a couple of people who had 1950's Frank Lloyd Wright style radiant slabs with iron water pipes in them. Apparently the pipes plugged up eventually, but there weren't any details. Does anyone have any data on scale deposit with the new plastic pipes in open loop system? Is there any data? Does anyone know of an open loop system in a hard water area that has been in operation for more than a few years? Inquiring minds want to know................Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 8 15:50:06 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA20318 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:50:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA07245; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:43:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:38:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06141 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:38:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from multi4.netcomi.com (rjbynum@multi4.netcomi.com [204.58.155.204]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06121; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:38:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from rjbynum@localhost) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id OAA26098; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:39:15 -0600 Received: from onelist.com ([209.207.164.217]) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id UAA26090 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:39:13 GMT Received: (qmail 30505 invoked by uid 99); 8 Feb 1999 20:40:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 12253 invoked from network); 8 Feb 1999 18:27:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eshu.request.net) (207.48.132.2) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 8 Feb 1999 18:27:38 -0000 Received: from munin.request.net ([208.236.140.172]) by eshu.request.net with ESMTP id <1499-24130>; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:29:45 -0500 Received: from hysave.com ([206.29.174.102]) by munin.request.net with ESMTP id <57442649-16535>; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:29:42 -0500 Message-ID: <36BF2CD5.21D4A80A@hysave.com> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:28:37 -0800 From: Russ Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Old-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: aztecfw@ix.netcom.com, GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver , iaq@onelist.com References: Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact iaq-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: GBlist: [iaq] Re: body heat in commercial building (was retrofit) X-Loop: rbynum@usenergycontrols.com To: rjbynum@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk From: Russ Smith The simple answer to your question Jorg is a "qualified" yes. Unfortunately there are no hard and fast rules or "one size fits all" strategies that we can apply universally. When doing any kind of conservation work in a building, particularly supermarkets, one must consider all sources of heat gain (lights, solar, people, hot deli equipment, in store bakeries etc.) or loss (building envelope, spillage from refrigerated cases, open doors, loading bays etc.). The trick to having a comfortable and efficient shopping or working environment is to use the proper control strategy and equipment to get the warm or cool air to where it is needed. There are several methods that we have used over the years to accomplish the above, each being dependent on the location, particular building operating character and requirements. Another thing that must be taken into consideration is humidity control. Here again we have developed and employed methods to maintain and control the desired shopping and working environment. Regards Russ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: > Russ: Thank you so much for your useful response and experience. Have > you or anyone taken maximum advantage of the free BTus from "internal > heat gain" in the winter represented by the number of shoppers, > beyond computer simulations? In other words, it seems that the BTu > contribution may be significant to the winter thermal supply in a well > insulated building (and a liability to the cooling load in the summer), > if it can be harnessed in an optimal way.I am sure you must have > considered this many times. Jorg ostrowski ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the week: "UL - Indoor Air Quality Program" http://www.ul.com/eph/iaq/index.htm UL - Working with regulators, users and industry to develop an Indoor Air Quality Standard. Standards development technical committee meeting schedule for indoor air emissions of equipment, furnishings, products, and floor, wall and ceiling treatments. As a new Environmental and Public Health service , UL has embarked upon the development of an ANSI-accredited Indoor Air Quality Standard. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 8 15:50:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA20333 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:50:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA07268; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:43:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:38:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06209 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:38:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from multi13.netcomi.com (dkdalton@multi13.netcomi.com [204.58.155.213]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06139; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:38:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dkdalton@localhost) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id OAA02963; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:38:37 -0600 Received: from onelist.com ([209.207.164.217]) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id OAA02955 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:38:34 -0600 Received: (qmail 30505 invoked by uid 99); 8 Feb 1999 20:40:05 -0000 Received: (qmail 12253 invoked from network); 8 Feb 1999 18:27:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO eshu.request.net) (207.48.132.2) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 8 Feb 1999 18:27:38 -0000 Received: from munin.request.net ([208.236.140.172]) by eshu.request.net with ESMTP id <1499-24130>; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:29:45 -0500 Received: from hysave.com ([206.29.174.102]) by munin.request.net with ESMTP id <57442649-16535>; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:29:42 -0500 Message-ID: <36BF2CD5.21D4A80A@hysave.com> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:28:37 -0800 From: Russ Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en Old-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: aztecfw@ix.netcom.com, GreenBuilding Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver , iaq@onelist.com References: Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact iaq-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: GBlist: [iaq] Re: body heat in commercial building (was retrofit) X-Loop: dkdalton@aztecenvironmental.com To: aztecfw@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk From: Russ Smith The simple answer to your question Jorg is a "qualified" yes. Unfortunately there are no hard and fast rules or "one size fits all" strategies that we can apply universally. When doing any kind of conservation work in a building, particularly supermarkets, one must consider all sources of heat gain (lights, solar, people, hot deli equipment, in store bakeries etc.) or loss (building envelope, spillage from refrigerated cases, open doors, loading bays etc.). The trick to having a comfortable and efficient shopping or working environment is to use the proper control strategy and equipment to get the warm or cool air to where it is needed. There are several methods that we have used over the years to accomplish the above, each being dependent on the location, particular building operating character and requirements. Another thing that must be taken into consideration is humidity control. Here again we have developed and employed methods to maintain and control the desired shopping and working environment. Regards Russ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Jorg D. Ostrowski" wrote: > Russ: Thank you so much for your useful response and experience. Have > you or anyone taken maximum advantage of the free BTus from "internal > heat gain" in the winter represented by the number of shoppers, > beyond computer simulations? In other words, it seems that the BTu > contribution may be significant to the winter thermal supply in a well > insulated building (and a liability to the cooling load in the summer), > if it can be harnessed in an optimal way.I am sure you must have > considered this many times. Jorg ostrowski ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the week: "UL - Indoor Air Quality Program" http://www.ul.com/eph/iaq/index.htm UL - Working with regulators, users and industry to develop an Indoor Air Quality Standard. Standards development technical committee meeting schedule for indoor air emissions of equipment, furnishings, products, and floor, wall and ceiling treatments. As a new Environmental and Public Health service , UL has embarked upon the development of an ANSI-accredited Indoor Air Quality Standard. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 8 20:03:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA25178 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:03:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25015; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:57:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:52:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA24396 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:52:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA24392 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:52:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.44]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 6622500 ; Mon, 08 Feb 1999 17:51:54 -0800 Message-ID: <36BF86D5.B16F7651@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:52:38 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Norbert Senf CC: jfstraube@golden.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Water heaters against code References: <000301be51df$f9f6a3c0$8a6aafce@hobbitbot> <4.1.19990208152650.00a58e50@mha-net.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I would like some more information or discussion on this as well. I was surprised to find the combined usage described in the Light Construction text. I was under the impression that at least in the Canadian national code this was definitely not allowed. The basic reason as John mentioned is stagnation in non heating times. Another problem could be contamination if all elements of the system are not designed for potability. Cost is another factor - for potability and for having to periodically flush the system during the off season. Heat exchange seems like it might have some merit as it makes use of the standby heat of the tank but would involve higher tank temperatures so I'm not sure if there is benefit and the cost of an exchanger would probably exceed a second tank. I am also still interested if anyone has experience with the use of spa heaters in small radiant systems. John Norbert Senf wrote: > At 01:42 PM 08/02/99 -0500, John Straube wrote: > (snip) > > > >I am surpised that codes allow the combination of space heating and > >domestic hot water on the same circuit. Although this may be allowed, > >is it good practice? Will there not be potential problems with > >stagnation in heating lines and increased mineral deposition? > > > >Are we going full circle in this discussion? I think we know that HWH > >can be used for space heating if used on a seperate heating loop. > >Now the remaining question for me is: is it a good idea to use one HWH > >for both domestic hot water and space heating and under what > >conditons. I want to know the reasons for any answers more than the > >answers themselves. > > > John raises some interesting points. I don't have any first hand experience > myself, but have spoken with a couple of people who had 1950's Frank Lloyd > Wright style radiant slabs with iron water pipes in them. Apparently the > pipes plugged up eventually, but there weren't any details. > > Does anyone have any data on scale deposit with the new plastic pipes in > open loop system? Is there any data? Does anyone know of an open loop > system in a hard water area that has been in operation for more than a few > years? Inquiring minds want to know................Norbert > ---------------------------------------- > Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) > Masonry Stove Builders > RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb > Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 > ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 9 04:43:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id EAA00837 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA16529; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:35:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:29:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA16103 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:29:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f106.hotmail.com [209.185.131.169]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA16099 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:29:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 1284 invoked by uid 0); 9 Feb 1999 09:30:52 -0000 Message-ID: <19990209093052.1283.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 192.151.112.28 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 09 Feb 1999 01:30:52 PST X-Originating-IP: [192.151.112.28] From: "Andre de Bouter" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: hot composting-burning pigshit Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 01:30:52 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I'm designing a guesthouse ('hotel') in a remote rural area (in France) and will need a lot of hot water. There is a pigfarm 'just next door'. And I love combining covering our needs with cleaning his shit. Burning the methane is an option. (I also was told it is/can be quite a polluting fuel). But it is the hot water I'm after. What I understood of hot composting is that adding organic material with lots of carbon (saw dust, there is a saw mill 'next door' as well) also gets rid of the smell of human feaces or other composting materials. I used to be a butcher and learned that humans are (certainly on a physical level) very much like pigs. Since we are 'related', would that mean we can treat their shit similar to ours? That's what I'd like to find out. I would like to do some testing. The farmer is a good guy and I think/hope he is in for some experiments. I'm sure he can tap into information on the exact contents of 'his' shit. So if any of you can help me get in contact with somebody that knows in detail what would happen in the hot-composting process, and what products would be best to add I could investigate it further. Pig-shit is really a big problem here in Holland (as in France). We export so much pigs that we have more pigs living in holland than people. 16 million pigs, 16 million humans, throw in a 'few' cows and sheep in a country 1/3 of Tasmania and you get the picture. It's a miracle you can't smell us all over the world with all that cheese on top. Thanks for your time, Andre ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 9 05:57:30 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA01222 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 05:57:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA19047; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 05:50:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Feb 1999 05:46:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA18696 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 05:46:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f106.hotmail.com [209.185.131.169]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA18692 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 05:46:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 17038 invoked by uid 0); 9 Feb 1999 10:47:45 -0000 Message-ID: <19990209104745.17036.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 192.151.112.28 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 09 Feb 1999 02:47:45 PST X-Originating-IP: [192.151.112.28] From: "Andre de Bouter" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: solar dairy building Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 02:47:45 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi Jonathan, >I have just finished an article about this solar dairy building >which I am submitting to the newsletter of the Potomac Region Solar >Energy Society of which I am a member. It is non technical article >but I would be happy to send it to you if you are interested. I'm interested. Andre ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 9 08:48:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA03167 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:48:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA25087; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:42:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:38:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA24783 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:38:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix2.interkan.net (root@unix2.interkan.net [12.13.79.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA24779 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:37:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from interkan.net (pm3-mhk48.interkan.net [12.13.79.78]) by unix2.interkan.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/jpw@interkan.net) with ESMTP id HAA18242; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:39:39 -0600 Message-ID: <36C03A0D.F99CAC70@interkan.net> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 07:37:17 -0600 From: Tamara & Bill Dorsett Reply-To: dorsett@interkan.net Organization: Health Options X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GERRY CC: Greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Whole house ventilation References: <19990208151144.23340.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Gerry, you might reconsider the whole house fan. Blower door tests on two otherwise identical houses here showed the one with the fan was a huge hole for air leakage year round. GERRY wrote: > I have a three story older home without an attic and > would like to install a whole house fan. I cannot find > any product that would have the power plus being protected on the > outside with a finished louver for the > inside. There are plenty of ventilation devices but they all require > an attic as an input or output. > Is this a "special" or is there a commercial product > available? > > Thanks for any info > > == > GERRY > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 9 09:40:47 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA03899 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:40:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29333; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:34:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:29:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28490 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:29:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix2.interkan.net (root@unix2.interkan.net [12.13.79.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28486 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from interkan.net (pm3-mhk52.interkan.net [12.13.79.82]) by unix2.interkan.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/jpw@interkan.net) with ESMTP id IAA22271; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:31:24 -0600 Message-ID: <36BEF0AF.7E28DC5@interkan.net> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 08:12:00 -0600 From: Tamara & Bill Dorsett Reply-To: dorsett@interkan.net Organization: Health Options X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dean Still CC: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: solar stove References: <01BE52F8.5223D680@dialport81.epud.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Tempering plants are usually limited to larger cities and it is very costly to have custom sized tempered glass as it has to be cut before tempering. So if it's tempered you want, make sure to use some standard size, or overruns from someone else's project. It might be as practical to salvage the glass out of old oven doors. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS Good Luck Dean Still wrote: > Dear Sue > > The Maria Telkes model solar ovenaims a square of glass, say 24" by 24" at the average sun position, surrounds the square with reflectors 1.4 times as long as the glass, at 120 degree angle to the glass. Fill in the four triangular corners as well. Makes the reflectors stronger. The box is insulated to R-10 or so and the door made pretty airtight. Make the box as high as the pot that you'll use. Paint the inside all black, put the pot on a low mass metal plate to take advantage of conduction. Use tin foil as well as insulation to reflect IR. > > It is hard to get oil up to 350F without using a movable reflector and that's a lot of trouble, the greater the concentration the more often it needs to move, tracking the sun. My preference is to have the food be the only thermal load, then you don't have to worry about heat transfer percentages. They are very low anyway inside a box cooker 'cause it's so hot and losses are tremendous through the glass. Your lucky to get 20% into the pot from the total of about 200 Btu/sf/hour. A Telkes with 24 by 24" glass will cook about 6 pounds of food in about the same time as a conventional oven, including water. If the weight of food goes up the time increases. Maria Telkes, the Mother of Appropriate Technology, designed a good oven, we love ours. > > Dean > > ---------- > From: Susanne Machler[SMTP:greensue@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 1999 11:13 PM > To: dstill@epud.org > Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: solar stove > > Hi Dean thinking of building a stove too, any pics, that report or > pointers would help.. I am thinking of a hot oil model. any weblinks or > resources? > > Thanks, > Sue > > From: Dean Still > To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" > Subject: GBlist: RE: solar stove > Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 10:21:48 -0800 > > Dear Norbert, > > Thanks for the reply. I think that I'll go up to using tempered glass, > our Telkes solar cookers get over 450 F( the wooden interior is charred) > and the glass is 30" by 30". At Aprovecho we do almost all the cooking > for ten students and ten staff people on sunny days using two of these > monsters. The glass has recently been cracking. > > By the way, the students are building a one ton model kochelofen using > pourable ceramic and cob, homemade tile on the outside and a fan to push > hot flue gases through a complicated maze, aiming at exit temps. of less > than 150F. I'll send you their report if you'd like...Do people ever use > fans in masonry stoves both for improved combustion, preheated primary > air, and to get exit temps. down? > > Regards, > > Dean > > ---------- > From: Norbert Senf[SMTP:mheat@mha-net.org] > Sent: Sunday, February 07, 1999 2:30 AM > To: Dean Still > Subject: RE: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: high > temperaturenontoxicsealants/caulks > > At 05:12 PM 06/02/99 -0800, you wrote: > >The glass is cracking... > > > Probably due to the thermal expansion coefficient of the glass. Stresses > are set up if the glass is heated unevenly. Also could be due if there > is > no expansion room around the glass, and a number of other reasons. > Options > I can think of include: > > thicker glass > more support for the glass > tempered glass - this is used for fireplace glass doors > ceramic glass (expensive, but completely heatproof. You can heat it > cherry > red with a torch and dunk it in a bucket of water. this is because its > thermal expansion coefficient is zero. We use a lot of it, and buy it in > bulk (3' X 5' sheets) for about $15/ sq. ft.) > ---------------------------------------- > Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) > Masonry Stove Builders > RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb > Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 > ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 9 09:41:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA03914 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:41:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29357; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:34:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:30:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28514 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:29:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix2.interkan.net (root@unix2.interkan.net [12.13.79.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28510 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:29:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from interkan.net (pm3-mhk52.interkan.net [12.13.79.82]) by unix2.interkan.net (8.8.8/8.8.8/jpw@interkan.net) with ESMTP id IAA22279; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:31:28 -0600 Message-ID: <36BFC297.75EAADE6@interkan.net> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 23:07:36 -0600 From: Tamara & Bill Dorsett Reply-To: dorsett@interkan.net Organization: Health Options X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Norbert Senf CC: jfstraube@golden.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Water heaters against code References: <000301be51df$f9f6a3c0$8a6aafce@hobbitbot> <4.1.19990208152650.00a58e50@mha-net.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk The only hydronic floor professional I know of in Kansas had a customer allow his slab to freeze, had to jack hammer it out and now leaves his clients with no choice - add automotive antifreeze. It has all the addatives that keep scale out, pumps operating and is cheap. For 1200 sq.ft of floor he suggested only 12 gals of liquid. A closed loop only makes great sense. One of the possibilities that occured was that we might use a PV operated valve similar to Heliotrope's Sunspool to open and close a solar collector loop. The valve operates by current heating a wax plug causing it to expand, sliding the valve core to open or close its ports. When the sun isn't sending current (only 10 watts for Sunspool) to the valve, the plug would contract, the core would slide in closing the collector loop. There is no complicated differential controller and as long as there is adaquate antifreeze the collectors there would be no freeze-up. The whole system could be driven by the one pump.There is a valve called a Hydrovert that might be rigged with a Sunspool driver...(?). Just speculating. Bill Dorsett Norbert Senf wrote: > At 01:42 PM 08/02/99 -0500, John Straube wrote: > (snip) > > > >I am surpised that codes allow the combination of space heating and > >domestic hot water on the same circuit. Although this may be allowed, > >is it good practice? Will there not be potential problems with > >stagnation in heating lines and increased mineral deposition? > > > >Are we going full circle in this discussion? I think we know that HWH > >can be used for space heating if used on a seperate heating loop. > >Now the remaining question for me is: is it a good idea to use one HWH > >for both domestic hot water and space heating and under what > >conditons. I want to know the reasons for any answers more than the > >answers themselves. > > > John raises some interesting points. I don't have any first hand experience > myself, but have spoken with a couple of people who had 1950's Frank Lloyd > Wright style radiant slabs with iron water pipes in them. Apparently the > pipes plugged up eventually, but there weren't any details. > > Does anyone have any data on scale deposit with the new plastic pipes in > open loop system? Is there any data? Does anyone know of an open loop > system in a hard water area that has been in operation for more than a few > years? Inquiring minds want to know................Norbert > ---------------------------------------- > Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) > Masonry Stove Builders > RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb > Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 > ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 9 13:28:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA09129 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:28:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA16022; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:21:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:16:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA15522 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:16:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15514 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:16:40 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 5ATWa20295 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:17:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:17:47 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Fwd: [eppnet] Moss removal Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_918584268_boundary" X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_918584268_boundary Content-ID: <0_918584268@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII If anyone can help please respond directly to Margaret Nover....NOT ME...so don't just hit Reply! thanks to anyone who can help :))...Phil Bailey/SustainAbility --part0_918584268_boundary Content-ID: <0_918584268@inet_out.mail.BES.CI.PORTLAND.OR.US.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb02.mx.aol.com (rly-zb02.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.2]) by air-zb04.mail.aol.com (v56.26) with SMTP; Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:00:50 -0500 Received: from lilith.webrover.com (lilith.webrover.com [207.136.217.3]) by rly-zb02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id LAA14866 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:00:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from ci.portland.or.us ([207.109.34.21]) by lilith.webrover.com with SMTP (Lyris Server version 3.0); Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:00:36 -0500 Received: from linux1.bis.city (root@linux1.bis.city [10.80.1.15]) by ci.portland.or.us (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA47982 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:04:54 -0800 Received: from city06.bit.city (city06.bit.city [10.80.1.176]) by linux1.bis.city (8.7.3/8.7.1) with ESMTP id IAA06047 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:59:44 -0800 Received: by city06.bit.city with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <1R8ZS37Z>; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:58:06 -0800 Message-ID: From: "Nover, Margaret" To: "Environmentally-preferable products procurement" Subject: [eppnet] Moss removal Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:59:47 -0800 List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-URL: X-List-Host: Northeast Recycling Council Reply-To: EPPNET@lilith.webrover.com X-Message-Id: <22CAE6874376D111A3C60000F80238B6804FD4@miranda.bes.ci.portland.or.us> Sender: bounce-eppnet-184@lilith.webrover.com Precedence: bulk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I received a call from one of our Watershed Managers asking about how to remove moss (chemically or otherwise) in a manner that does not harm water quality. I mentioned that not only the product used could harm water quality, but that application (e.g. during/around rain events, during wind= y events, etc.) of the product may also be an issue. Has anyone worked with moss removal products who can recommend one that is non/less toxic? The roof in question is an asphalt roof. Margaret Nover Pollution Prevention Program City of Portland, Oregon (503) 823-7623 margaret@bes.ci.portland.or.us --- You are currently subscribed to eppnet as: [Pbsustain@aol.com] To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-eppnet-184R@lilith.webrover.= com --part0_918584268_boundary-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 9 14:02:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA10012 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18398; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:55:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:51:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17931 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:50:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA17924 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:50:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-38.netmeg.net [208.139.83.101]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA04575; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:52:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36C08401.18C1C108@swinter.com> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:52:49 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pbsustain@aol.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Fwd: [eppnet] Moss removal References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hello! My thought would be that moss is like fungi and moss has already impregnated the shingle with its spores and really can't be removed 100% without a chem. treatment. We used borate for treating rotting timber piling. debra lombard Pbsustain@aol.com wrote: > If anyone can help please respond directly to Margaret Nover....NOT ME...so > don't just hit Reply! thanks to anyone who can help :))...Phil > Bailey/SustainAbility > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: [eppnet] Moss removal > Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:59:47 -0800 > From: "Nover, Margaret" > Reply-To: EPPNET@lilith.webrover.com > To: "Environmentally-preferable products procurement" > > > I received a call from one of our Watershed Managers asking about how to > remove moss (chemically or otherwise) in a manner that does not harm water > quality. I mentioned that not only the product used could harm water > quality, but that application (e.g. during/around rain events, during windy > events, etc.) of the product may also be an issue. > > Has anyone worked with moss removal products who can recommend one that is > non/less toxic? The roof in question is an asphalt roof. > > Margaret Nover > Pollution Prevention Program > City of Portland, Oregon > (503) 823-7623 > margaret@bes.ci.portland.or.us > > --- > You are currently subscribed to eppnet as: [Pbsustain@aol.com] > To unsubscribe, forward this message to leave-eppnet-184R@lilith.webrover.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 9 17:52:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15378 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:52:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03331; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:45:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:41:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA02870 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:40:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA02866 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:40:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (chtw04-37.pei.sympatico.ca [207.34.30.181]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA08391 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:42:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36C0BA46.6E5C@pei.sympatico.ca> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 18:44:22 -0400 From: Phil Ferraro Reply-To: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-SYMPA (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Ecovillage/Tourism Project Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I read an article in Saturday's Globe and Mail that said that each of us is only six people away from anyone in the world. I am therefore sending this message to you and asking that each of you forward it to everyone you know who might be interested in investing in this model, eco-development. A business plan will be sent to those whom express a serious interest. Thank you. The Spry Point Ark was originally constructed, in 1975, as an environmental research facility for the United Nations Habitat for Humanity Forum. At that time it demonstrated to thousands of visitors world-wide, how appropriate technology could be developed for the benefit of human living and commercial activities. Today the Ark prevails as an international icon, symbolizing the environmental spirit that has matured in significant part, due to research that began at this site. As a result of this continued world-wide notoriety, the Ark is currently under consideration for designation as an Official Canadian Heritage Site. Fortune Bay Ecolodge Designs Ltd. proposes to develop an eco-tourism destination site at Spry Point. The project will preserve the historical roots of the Ark's original objectives while creating a keystone for eco-tourism for the entire province. It will expand accommodations whose very nature will provide a positive, enjoyable and educational visitor experience . At the same time this development will strengthen the fundamental ideals of sustainable living and education which are essential for achieving Tourism PEI's goal of positioning Eastern PEI as an eco-tourism region. The facility will also enhance the visitation experience of existing visitor traffic and generate significant new visitor business. The unique features of the Ark offer an exclusive historical past worth preserving, as well as an idyllic setting to create a living and learning centre that will have a life-long influence on our visitors' personal development. Using the successful examples of Fortress Louisbourg in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia; Kings Landing, New Brunswick and Williamsburg, Virginia as model villages of the 18th and 19th centuries, the Spry Point resort will become a model "eco-village" of 21st century environmentally friendly living. We would like to point out the section titled "Global Eco-tourism Examples". Over the past three years we have either visited these sites and/or recruited the owners or general managers to serve on an our advisory board for the development of this plan. We feel that these examples serve as excellent illustrations of the type of success that we will bring to Eastern Prince Edward Island. Our examples include: The Centre for Alternative Technology (CAT); Whales This organization got its start by reading the New Alchemy Institute (NAI) Journals in the 1970's that reported on the research NAI was doing in Cape Cod and at Spry Point. They replicated that work in Whales and expanded with public demonstration sites and educational programs. Today, CAT receives over 100,000 visitors per year! Maho Bay Resorts; US Virgin Islands This facility includes 114 "eco-cabins", an ecological campground and Concordia Estates a luxury "ecolodge". The facilities are built with environmentally friendly materials and generate their power from renewable resources. In 1997 Maho Bay Resorts received the Smithsonian and Travel Agents Association Environmental Award, the highest award in the industry. They also enjoy the highest year-round occupancy rating of any resort in the Caribbean. Solar Living Resource Centre; Northern California Opened in 1996, by Real Goods Trading Company, the world's largest mail order company for environmental products, the centre received over 90,000 visitors in its first six months of operation. It's on-site environmental hardware store sold over $1million worth of products during this same time period. Mowbry Falls, Australia Currently under construction, we have included this development to show that its size and scope supports our research that identifies this type of eco-tourism to be the fastest growing industry in the world. Similarly, in the UK, The Earth Centre (not included in our report) is a $100+ million ecotourism destination project that is projecting to have 2 million visitors per year when it is completed in the year 2000. Our business plan describes the key components that will create a similar "eco-village" atmosphere and an educationally enhanced, high quality travel experience. It addresses a diverse group of revenue generating sectors that each hold tremendous potential on their own, and very realistic opportunity for expansion. Although the plan itself focuses on the typical mid-June to mid-October season it also displays excellent potential to expand into a year round operation. Already on line, are several universities who are ready and waiting for us to begin operations so their students can utilize our location as place for practicums and extended seminars during the school year. The unique features of this development will make use of high quality design throughout and make it the region's cornerstone for the rapidly growing world-wide ecotourism industry; creating local employment and generating a diversity of community based enterprises. Due to our extended participation on the international level for the past 23 years, we are already firmly ensconced in the realm that makes up the global ecotourism market. The plan has been extensively researched and has been enriched with the full endorsement of numerous community business people, politicians, conservation groups and local residents. (See Appendix 1 for letters of support.) We can assure you that this proposal offers the full compliment of a marketable idea, and the expertise to succeed. We are excited by the potential that this plan has for our community and are grateful for the opportunity to present it to you. Sincerely, Phil Ferraro and Nancy Willis c/o Fortune Bay Ecolodge Designs Ltd. 393 University Avenue, Suite 126 Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island Canada C1A 4N4 Phone: (902) 368-2005 (day); (902) 892-9578 (night) Email: adapt.pei@pei.sympatico.ca ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 9 17:53:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15391 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:53:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03494; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:46:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:42:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA02978 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:42:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA02959 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:42:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from reg-53-0150.direct.ca ([216.66.142.50] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10ALsz-0003rJ-00 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:44:06 -0800 Message-ID: <36C0ADAF.F77962EE@direct.ca> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 13:50:39 -0800 From: Richard Kadulski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-SYMPA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: RE: Water heaters against code References: <199902090052.TAA24423@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > 08/02/99 -0500, John Straube wrote: > (snip) > > > >I am surpised that codes allow the combination of space heating and > >domestic hot water on the same circuit. Although this may be allowed, > >is it good practice? Will there not be potential problems with > >stagnation in heating lines and increased mineral deposition? Combination heating & DHW systems are definitely allowed by codes. What is not acceptable is circulating potable water through the heating loop. The standard approach used in BC, where potable water may be run through a fan coil, is to have a timed pump control so that the standing water is circulated once every so many hours. BC Gas (for John Salmen's benefit) was instrumental in working with an industry group that included building officials, to prepare installation guidelines for combination systems. > > > >Are we going full circle in this discussion? I think we know that HWH > >can be used for space heating if used on a seperate heating loop. > >Now the remaining question for me is: is it a good idea to use one HWH > >for both domestic hot water and space heating and under what > >conditons. I want to know the reasons for any answers more than the > >answers themselves. The ideal conditions for these systems is in energy efficient dwellings that have a small heat load - that is why they are often selected for townhouses. The main reason is that while hot water needs are year round, space heating is not. A combination system makes more efficient use of the heater, and also means a lower capital cost as only one heater (and associated venting) is needed. > John raises some interesting points. I don't have any first hand experience > myself, but have spoken with a couple of people who had 1950's Frank Lloyd > Wright style radiant slabs with iron water pipes in them. Apparently the > pipes plugged up eventually, but there weren't any details. > I am a great fan of combination systems (I used it first in the BC Advanced House in 1993) and have installed a system in my own home. I have a small (38,000 BTU) direct vent gas fired water heater (Delta-Temp - presently not being manufactured) that heats a storage tank (standard 30 gal DHW tank). This tank provides heat to a radiant floor heat system (800 sq.ft. on the lowest level) through a heat exchanger (so that potable water is separated). It also provides heat to a fan coil unit for a forced warm air system to the upper two floors (about 1300 sq.ft). The storage tank is also the domestic water source for hot water for the entire house (2 dwellings - total occupancy 4 persons). The radiant pipes are plastic (oxygen barrier) WIRSBO pipes. The system is slightly undersized for our climate (all the house retrofits anticipated to reduce heat load have not yet been implemented) but it works like a charm, without any problems. > Does anyone have any data on scale deposit with the new plastic pipes in > open loop system? Is there any data? Does anyone know of an open loop > system in a hard water area that has been in operation for more than a few > years? Inquiring minds want to know................Norbert > Scale deposit would obviously depend on local water conditions. The radiant loop should not be a problem, as it should be a closed loop. -- Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver, BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax 604-689-11841 Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design Editor Solplan Review: the independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 9 18:20:42 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA15988 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:20:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA04804; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:13:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:09:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04469 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:09:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.privat.kkf.net (privat.kkf.net [212.63.32.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04465 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:09:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from alex (mi-dial33.privat.kkf.net [212.63.37.33]) by mail.privat.kkf.net (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id AAA05152 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:11:25 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199902092311.AAA05152@mail.privat.kkf.net> From: "alexander neumann" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: hot composting-burning pigshit Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:04:43 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > > Burning the methane is an option. (I also was told it is/can be quite a > polluting fuel). polluting as in "not desireable to produce it" or like " burning it is more polluting than doing something else with it"? when the first is right, then, you won´t make the farmer stop producing it anyways, so you could well burn it, but if the second is right, then it´d be some problem. Alex N. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 9 18:52:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA16471 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:52:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA06507; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:46:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:42:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA06171 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:41:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA06167 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 18:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1 (mck-ppp1-42.topher.net [208.199.183.248]) by mail.topher.net (8.9.0/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA14228 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:49:42 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: From: "Paul Westbrook" To: "'Greenbuilding List'" Subject: GBlist: Seeking Help in the Northeast Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:42:27 -0600 Message-ID: <000201be5486$2242b320$f8b7c7d0@ns1.topher.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I'm in the Dallas (Texas) area and received this message. Anyone out there want to offer their services? *** You might be able to refer me to someone in Massachusetts to help me with Solar energy concerns for the house we are moving to this may. It is a large old house and I would love to take advantage of as much Solar energy as I can. It is on the Ocean and gets a fair amount of Sun. I am interested in wind energy too, but I get the feeling that is impossible. Thanks a lot. Sincerely, RICHARD BUCK(972-985-1952) RWNABuck@aol.com *** Thanks, Paul Westbrook http://www.enerjazz.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 00:14:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21051 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:14:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA25002; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:07:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:03:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA24496 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:03:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from srunet.sru.edu (srunet.sru.edu [192.148.234.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA24489 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:03:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from phoenix.sru.edu ([205.149.64.44] helo=rockmail.sru.edu) by srunet.sru.edu with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #1) for greenbuilding@crest.org id 10ASqf-0006M3-00; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 01:10:09 -0500 Received: from oemcomputer ([208.231.49.202]) by rockmail.sru.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.5) with SMTP id AAA51 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:04:59 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990210050336.0067d0b4@rockmail.sru.edu> X-Sender: jdt4006@rockmail.sru.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:03:36 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "TRUOG, JEREMY" Subject: GBlist: home buying Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi there, I'm trying to get some information for a friend of mine. He and his wife are looking to buy their first house. They are young, so they don't have much money, but can do any necessary work themselves. My question is: does anyone know of a list of things to look at when considering a house? I mean stuff that can be looked at in a short visual inspection. Things that can indicate quality, problems, heating/cooling, etc. Anyone know what I am talking about and can help me out a bit? Thank you in advance, Jeremy Truog ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 00:33:22 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA21249 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:33:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA26511; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:26:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:22:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA26080 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:22:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (t9bwPbExIndn/vCvaCgQcOlrT3Nrthe+@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA26076 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:22:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (6zbkcYfHpExBgVkJixT2bAE/wQx5mP4g@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA08978; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:24:13 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA29712; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:24:10 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36C117E7.10AF452A@gs.net> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 23:23:52 -0600 From: Steve Pailet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Richard Kadulski CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Water heaters against code References: <199902090052.TAA24423@solstice.crest.org> <36C0ADAF.F77962EE@direct.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Just an aside about circulating water for a heating system off of your potable water. The most important thing to know is that the water cannot be allowed to sit. It must be circulated. After the heating season is over the water circuit for heating must be thoroughly drained. Several years ago many people died when this simple act of draining the circuit was not done. We now know this is the cause of Legionaries disease. Steve P Richard Kadulski wrote: > > 08/02/99 -0500, John Straube wrote: > > (snip) > > > > > >I am surpised that codes allow the combination of space heating and > > >domestic hot water on the same circuit. Although this may be allowed, > > >is it good practice? Will there not be potential problems with > > >stagnation in heating lines and increased mineral deposition? > > Combination heating & DHW systems are definitely allowed by codes. What is not acceptable is circulating potable water through the heating loop. The standard approach used in BC, where potable water may be run through a fan coil, is to have a timed pump control so that the standing water is circulated once every so many hours. > > BC Gas (for John Salmen's benefit) was instrumental in working with an industry group that included building officials, to prepare installation guidelines for combination systems. > > > > > > >Are we going full circle in this discussion? I think we know that HWH > > >can be used for space heating if used on a seperate heating loop. > > >Now the remaining question for me is: is it a good idea to use one HWH > > >for both domestic hot water and space heating and under what > > >conditons. I want to know the reasons for any answers more than the > > >answers themselves. > > The ideal conditions for these systems is in energy efficient dwellings that have a small heat load - that is why they are often selected for townhouses. The main reason is that while hot water needs are year round, space heating is not. A combination system makes more efficient use of the heater, and also means a lower capital cost as only one heater (and associated venting) is needed. > > > John raises some interesting points. I don't have any first hand experience > > myself, but have spoken with a couple of people who had 1950's Frank Lloyd > > Wright style radiant slabs with iron water pipes in them. Apparently the > > pipes plugged up eventually, but there weren't any details. > > > > I am a great fan of combination systems (I used it first in the BC Advanced House in 1993) and have installed a system in my own home. I have a small (38,000 BTU) direct vent gas fired water heater (Delta-Temp - presently not being manufactured) that heats a storage tank (standard 30 gal DHW tank). This tank provides heat to a radiant floor heat system (800 sq.ft. on the lowest level) through a heat exchanger (so that potable water is separated). It also provides heat to a fan coil unit for a forced warm air system to the upper two floors (about 1300 sq.ft). The storage tank is also the domestic water source for hot water for the entire house (2 dwellings - total occupancy 4 persons). > > The radiant pipes are plastic (oxygen barrier) WIRSBO pipes. > > The system is slightly undersized for our climate (all the house retrofits anticipated to reduce heat load have not yet been implemented) but it works like a charm, without any problems. > > > Does anyone have any data on scale deposit with the new plastic pipes in > > open loop system? Is there any data? Does anyone know of an open loop > > system in a hard water area that has been in operation for more than a few > > years? Inquiring minds want to know................Norbert > > > > Scale deposit would obviously depend on local water conditions. The radiant loop should not be a problem, as it should be a closed loop. > > -- > Richard Kadulski Architect > 204 - 1037 West Broadway > Vancouver, BC V6H 1E3 > > Tel/fax 604-689-11841 > > Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design > Editor Solplan Review: the independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 02:47:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA22469 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:47:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA02466; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:41:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:37:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA02151 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:37:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA02147 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:37:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 17872 invoked from network); 10 Feb 1999 07:38:57 -0000 Received: from userk500.uk.uudial.com (HELO ) (193.149.70.76) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 10 Feb 1999 07:38:57 -0000 Message-ID: <36C016DB.23F8@dial.pipex.com> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:07:07 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Reply-To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ballentine@voyager.net CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Zimbabwe solar? References: <36BED628.D5C@voyager.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Pat Ballentine wrote: > This term I have 2 Zimbabwean students in my Energy Efficient Design > class and Alternative Structures class. I would like to offer them > something they can take home and use. Since we're in Michigan and I > teach cold climate design, I am having to find information I don't > usually work with. > I'd like any resources you folks could recommend. I'm looking > specifically for solar tables (sun angles) which would deal with > locations in the tropics. Zimbabwe is between 15 degrees south > latitude and 22 degrees south latitude. My tables for N. America don't > go further south than 24 degrees N. latitude. If it was me, I would probably get them to construct the tables themselves by putting together a spreadsheet or a simple programme from the basic equations - that way they get to understand a bit more what the sun is doing. If you want a good reference for those equations, try the first chapter of: John A Duffie & William A Beckman, Solar Engineering of Thermal Processes, Wiley, 1980 which I assume you'd be able to find in any decent university library. Of course, you'll also need solar intensity data - on this I can't help you as far as Zimbabwe is concerned, but I would be surprised if nothing had been published on the subject. If you have access to computerised literature-searching facilities, that would obviously be the place to start; otherwise, I suspect the periodical most likely to have published something of this nature is _Solar_Energy_ (the "serious" periodical of the International Solar Energy Society, published by Elsevier Science). The most recent issue of Solar Energy on my shelves (March 94) says that it is indexed in EIC Intelligence, Current Contents, CABS (Biological Sciences), BIOSIS Database, Engineering Index Monthly and Author Index, Environmental Periodicals Bibliography, and Applied Science and Technology Index. I had a similar problem myself last year - two African students (from Uganda and Swaziland) registered for my course on energy conservation and energy management, which is very much geared towards temperate-climate industrial societies. They were certainly interested in what I was teaching them, but I still felt I was shortchanging them, and in the end I arranged for them to have a couple of extra sessions with a colleague who had tropical design experience. All the best, Mark Bigland-Pritchard Bristol, England ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 03:10:17 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA22706 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:10:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA03080; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:03:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:59:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA02795 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:59:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from hotmail.com (law-f95.hotmail.com [209.185.131.158]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA02791 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 02:59:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 18370 invoked by uid 0); 10 Feb 1999 08:00:54 -0000 Message-ID: <19990210080054.18369.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 192.151.112.28 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:00:54 PST X-Originating-IP: [192.151.112.28] From: "Andre de Bouter" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Pig manure Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:00:54 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi all, Thanks for the leads, I'll go and see where they lead to. I'll keep you posted. For those who have no clue how I came to the idea of hot composting, here is the site that inspired me: http://www.rdrop.com/users/krishna/greenhse.htm If I offended anybody with that other word for manure, Sorry. Have a nice day, Andre ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 05:29:31 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA23968 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:29:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA06290; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:22:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:18:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA05956 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:18:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA05952 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:18:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-10-141.cyberzone.net [209.150.10.141]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:00:08 -0500 Message-ID: <36C18859.2385@cyberzone.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:23:38 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Harazim Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charlotte Matthews CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: my cup of tea References: <199902072215.RAA21554@dark.brown.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk We have a "Hotshot", made by Sunbeam. It's a small reservoir that holds up to .5L of water. This reservoir sits on a pedestal and has a dispenser in the bottom, and a cup fits underneath. It's fast (2 minutes and 15 seconds), produces boiling (not merely hot) water, and shuts off immediately after the water comes to a boil. At 1450 watts, I'm sure someone can tell us how it rates. Regards, Dan Harazim ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 05:35:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA24011 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:35:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA06605; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:29:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:25:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA06388 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:25:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA06384 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:25:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-10-165.cyberzone.net [209.150.10.165]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:07:12 -0500 Message-ID: <36C18A03.595B@cyberzone.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:30:43 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Harazim Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Speireag Alden CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Insulating a roof. References: <36BA0D4A.236D8C3C@atlasinc.on.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk The net result of all this discussion on Irma's roof is that I'll be forced to explore it on my next building with a low-slope roof. Thanks,I think. And who is Irma, anyway? ;-> Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 07:56:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA25375 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA11911; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:50:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:46:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA11618 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:46:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA11613 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:46:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-10.netcom.ca [207.181.90.74]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA11602; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:46:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990210073948.00a718a0@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:46:12 -0400 To: From: Norbert Senf Subject: GBlist: RE: Water heaters against code Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <001d01be54a7$262b5c00$82cfaec7@hobbitbot> References: <000001be5392$b8094b20$3f81b7d1@jfstraube> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 08:43 PM 09/02/99 -0600, John Cruickshank wrote: (snip) That leaves only a >potable side concern for bacterial contamination. And that is the issue >that needs the application of good piping design to eliminate any potential >for heating side isolations or stagnations. That is up to the eyes and >experience of the designer, installer, and official. Good work is only as >good as that in this case. So who carries the liability in the above scenario if something goes wrong? This has been an interesting discussion -- it appears that a heat exchanger in the hot water tank would be the prudent way to go, given the non-perfect nature of the real word...................Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 09:39:30 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01366 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:39:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16389; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:32:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:29:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15936 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:28:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (root@kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15932 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:28:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.47 (pm1-15.hoosier.net [206.106.67.47]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24560; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:30:33 -0500 Message-ID: <36C151B3.7018@bloomington.in.us> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:30:28 +0000 From: John Bower Reply-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "TRUOG, JEREMY" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: home buying References: <1.5.4.32.19990210050336.0067d0b4@rockmail.sru.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I'd recommend a pre-purchase home inspector. Ask around for a recommendation. They will be able to look for things a homebuyer wouldn't think . Plus, some things will be obvious to them that might not be covered on a typical "list of things to look at." TRUOG, JEREMY wrote: > > Hi there, > I'm trying to get some information for a friend of mine. He and his > wife are looking to buy their first house. They are young, so they don't > have much money, but can do any necessary work themselves. My question is: > does anyone know of a list of things to look at when considering a house? I > mean stuff that can be looked at in a short visual inspection. Things that > can indicate quality, problems, heating/cooling, etc. Anyone know what I am > talking about and can help me out a bit? > Thank you in advance, > Jeremy Truog > ___________________ -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 09:55:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01643 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:55:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15803; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:25:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:21:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15500 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:21:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15496 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:21:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.247] (pm3a19.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.243]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA09645 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:23:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:23:11 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) [207.136.199.247] from pm3a19.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.243] 207.136.199.243 Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:23:11 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36C18859.2385@cyberzone.net> References: <199902072215.RAA21554@dark.brown.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: my cup of tea Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 5:23 AM -0800 2/10/99, Dan and Pam Harazim wrote: >We have a "Hotshot", made by Sunbeam. It's a small reservoir that holds >up to .5L of water. This reservoir sits on a pedestal and has a >dispenser in the bottom, and a cup fits underneath. It's fast (2 >minutes and 15 seconds), produces boiling (not merely hot) water, and >shuts off immediately after the water comes to a boil. At 1450 watts, >I'm sure someone can tell us how it rates. This is what we have at the Environmental Building News office also. You only heat what you're going to use and no stand-by losses. Except for the plastic lid that's broken, I think it's the way to go for an office or household that needs to make a cup of tea now and then. -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News 122 Birge Street, Suite 30 Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 09:55:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01645 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:55:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15051; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:09:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:06:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14716 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:05:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14706 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:05:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (STD1.2/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA00964; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:07:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA19365; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:07:22 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:07:21 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Andre de Bouter Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Pig manure joke In-Reply-To: <19990210080054.18369.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk When the farmer's daughter complained about her Father, using the word "manure", she said, "Mother, can't you get him to use the word, 'fertilizer' instaead of 'manure'? Its so offensive!" The Mother replied, "Listen, dear, leave well enough alone. It took me forever to get him to say 'manure.' On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Andre de Bouter wrote: > Hi all, > > Thanks for the leads, I'll go and see where they lead to. I'll keep you > posted. > > For those who have no clue how I came to the idea of hot composting, > here is the site that inspired me: > http://www.rdrop.com/users/krishna/greenhse.htm > > If I offended anybody with that other word for manure, Sorry. > > Have a nice day, > Andre > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 09:55:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA01649 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:55:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA14279; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:58:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:54:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA13891 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:53:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA13885 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:53:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-26-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.26]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04565; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:55:23 -0500 Message-ID: <36C18FC4.D57F3811@together.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:55:16 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Norbert Senf CC: hobbithouse@csi.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Water heaters against code References: <000001be5392$b8094b20$3f81b7d1@jfstraube> <4.1.19990210073948.00a718a0@mha-net.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk After observing this thread, I'll add my two cents. For commercial/institutional HVAC systems, my primary area of practice, commonly a heat exchanger is used to separate domestic water from space heating water. If the space heating water is hazardous or toxic, say with anti-freeze, then a double wall heat exchanger with positive leak detection is required. Tom Anderson Norbert Senf wrote: > At 08:43 PM 09/02/99 -0600, John Cruickshank wrote: > (snip) That leaves only a > >potable side concern for bacterial contamination. And that is the issue > >that needs the application of good piping design to eliminate any potential > >for heating side isolations or stagnations. That is up to the eyes and > >experience of the designer, installer, and official. Good work is only as > >good as that in this case. > > So who carries the liability in the above scenario if something goes wrong? > This has been an interesting discussion -- it appears that a heat > exchanger in the hot water tank would be the prudent way to go, given the > non-perfect nature of the real word...................Norbert > ---------------------------------------- > Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) > Masonry Stove Builders > RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb > Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 > ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 10:24:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA02152 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:24:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19846; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:18:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:12:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19149 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:12:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA19145 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:12:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (STD1.2/BZS-8-1.0) id KAA11943; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:13:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA27318; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:13:55 -0500 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:13:55 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: my cup of tea In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk solar tea --------- take a clear glass jar add water add tea set in sun until done to taste drink tea paid energy consumed: zero for more temperature, place jar in the inside corner of a three sided box open to the sun (bottom and two vertical sides with aluminum foil as reflectors) Send press releases, announcements, and notices of interest to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 To receive the next edition of the Environmental Review, send, subscribe er-list, to ; for Solar Utilities info, send, subscribe solar_utilities ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 16:49:30 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA07890 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:49:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA14939; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:42:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:37:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA14415 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:37:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14410 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:37:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from qbert.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@qbert.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.94]) by donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id QAA19621 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:02:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (sucila@localhost) by qbert.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with ESMTP id QAA09782 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:02:16 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:02:15 -0500 (EST) From: Sucila Fernandes X-Sender: sucila@qbert.rs.itd.umich.edu To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: ceiling tiles Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone know of companies that recycle old ceiling tiles? Are there any other recycle/reuse applications for these ceiling tiles? If not, can you send me the names of companies that would have recycled content in their new products? Once again, this is an attempt to avoid landfilling C&D waste and recognize potential recycling opportunities. Thank you for you time, Sincerely, Sucila Fernandes Dana Building 430 E. University (Rm:2004) Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1115 (734) 764-1412 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 16:58:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA08077 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:58:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15673; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:51:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:47:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA15234 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:47:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.kwom.com (root@mail.kwom.com [206.185.16.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA15229 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:47:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from vzngemxl (usr-1-04.kwom.com [206.185.17.132]) by mail.kwom.com (8.9.2/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA07691; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:48:14 -0600 (CST) Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:51:16 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE550D.3178F8E0.hkreitz@kwom.com> From: Heidi Kreitz To: "'Sucila Fernandes'" Cc: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: ceiling tiles Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:51:05 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Sucila: I don't know of any companies that recycle ceiling tiles, but you may want to check with Celotex for purchasing recycled-content tiles. I know a Chicago-area representative named Julie Montrose who can be reached at 847-298-1941, or a general number for Celotex is 800-851-6021. I'd also be very interested if anyone knows of any outlets in the Midwest for recycling unique C&D wastes. Heidi Kreitz On Wednesday, February 10, 1999 3:02 PM, Sucila Fernandes [SMTP:sucila@umich.edu] wrote: > Does anyone know of companies that recycle old ceiling tiles? Are there > any other recycle/reuse applications for these ceiling tiles? If not, can > you send me the names of companies that would have recycled content in > their new products? Once again, this is an attempt to avoid landfilling > C&D waste and recognize potential recycling opportunities. > > Thank you for you time, > > Sincerely, > Sucila Fernandes > > Dana Building > 430 E. University (Rm:2004) > Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1115 > (734) 764-1412 > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 17:35:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA08785 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:35:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA17908; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:28:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:24:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA17475 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:24:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17467 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:24:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.247] (pm1a17.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.113]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA26315 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:25:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:25:45 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) [207.136.199.247] from pm1a17.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.113] 207.136.199.113 Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:25:45 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: ceiling tiles Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 4:02 PM -0500 2/10/99, Sucila Fernandes wrote: >Does anyone know of companies that recycle old ceiling tiles? Are there >any other recycle/reuse applications for these ceiling tiles? If not, can >you send me the names of companies that would have recycled content in >their new products? Once again, this is an attempt to avoid landfilling >C&D waste and recognize potential recycling opportunities. Armstrong has launched a ceiling tile recycling program, which we wrote up in the November 1998 issue of EBN. The program primarily applies to large projects, but it's worth contacting the company for more details. For details: Armstrong Ceilings Reclamation Program Armstrong World Industries P.O. Box 3511 Lancaster, PA 17604 888/CEILINGS (then Option 3 for TechLine expert) -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News 122 Birge Street, Suite 30 Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 17:56:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA09587 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:56:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19243; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:50:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:45:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA18874 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:45:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18867 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:45:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-16.netmeg.net [208.139.83.79]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA01304; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:47:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36C20C90.A3C8AC9C@swinter.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:47:45 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Wilson CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: ceiling tiles References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi You need to contact lynn king at Sellen Construction in seattle. they are GCs who did the microsoft renovation where they recycled 30,000+ Sf of ceiling tiles. Let me know if you can not get her #. debra lombard http://home.earthlink.net/~dlombard Alex Wilson wrote: > At 4:02 PM -0500 2/10/99, Sucila Fernandes wrote: > >Does anyone know of companies that recycle old ceiling tiles? Are there > >any other recycle/reuse applications for these ceiling tiles? If not, can > >you send me the names of companies that would have recycled content in > >their new products? Once again, this is an attempt to avoid landfilling > >C&D waste and recognize potential recycling opportunities. > > Armstrong has launched a ceiling tile recycling program, which we wrote up > in the November 1998 issue of EBN. The program primarily applies to large > projects, but it's worth contacting the company for more details. For > details: > > Armstrong Ceilings Reclamation Program > Armstrong World Industries > P.O. Box 3511 > Lancaster, PA 17604 > 888/CEILINGS (then Option 3 for TechLine expert) > > -Alex Wilson, Editor > > Environmental Building News > 122 Birge Street, Suite 30 > Brattleboro, VT 05301 > 802/257-7300 > 802/257-7304 (fax) > http://www.ebuild.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 18:25:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA10547 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:25:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA21741; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:18:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:14:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA21410 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:14:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA21406 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:14:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id RAA0000025963; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:16:13 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990210231913.0071a9f8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:19:13 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: my cup of tea Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 09:23 AM 10-02-99 -0500, you wrote: >At 5:23 AM -0800 2/10/99, Dan and Pam Harazim wrote: >>We have a "Hotshot", made by Sunbeam. It's a small reservoir that holds >>up to .5L of water. This reservoir sits on a pedestal and has a >>dispenser in the bottom, and a cup fits underneath. It's fast (2 >>minutes and 15 seconds), produces boiling (not merely hot) water, and >>shuts off immediately after the water comes to a boil. At 1450 watts, >>I'm sure someone can tell us how it rates. > >This is what we have at the Environmental Building News office also. You >only heat what you're going to use and no stand-by losses. Except for the >plastic lid that's broken, I think it's the way to go for an office or >household that needs to make a cup of tea now and then. > Anyone know how this method compares to energy use via a cup of hot water from a microwave? Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 20:11:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA11968 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:11:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA27435; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:03:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:59:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA27070 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA27064 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:59:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 20712 invoked by alias); 11 Feb 1999 01:00:43 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 20681 invoked by uid 0); 11 Feb 1999 01:00:42 -0000 Received: from jdialup245.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.180.240.245) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 11 Feb 1999 01:00:42 -0000 Message-ID: <001301be5559$a59f8da0$f5f0b4d1@h5n5y7> From: "PETER F. ALSPACH" To: , "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: my cup of tea Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:58:32 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Since they are both electric, Watts * time = Energy used For the Sunbeam: 1450W*2.25 min= 3625 W-min. for (.5l I'm assuming) Or, 0.054375 kWh For your microwave?? V. easy to compare. Pete Alspach ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 20:30:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA12173 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA28847; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:23:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:19:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA28181 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:19:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28172 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:18:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from reg-53-0191.direct.ca ([216.66.142.91] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10Ako0-0006Dp-00; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:20:36 -0800 Message-ID: <36C1CE63.ADCCE33@direct.ca> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:22:27 -0800 From: Richard Kadulski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-SYMPA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, dorsett@interkan.ne Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Water heaters against code References: <199902100522.AAA26094@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > From: Tamara & Bill Dorsett > Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Water heaters against code > > The only hydronic floor professional I know of in Kansas had a customer > allow his slab to freeze, had to jack hammer it out and now leaves his clients > with no choice - add automotive antifreeze. It has all the addatives that keep > scale out, pumps operating and is cheap. For 1200 sq.ft of floor he suggested > only 12 gals of liquid. A closed loop only makes great sense. Cheaper, longer lasting, better comfort, less toxic (i.e. anti-freeze chemicals) etc. would be acheived if the house were well insulated - that includes the floor slab and foundation walls. Then, the likely hood of a freeze up diminishes even if solar gain is minimal. Of course, the floor radiant system should be a closed loop. -- Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver, BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax 604-689-11841 Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design Editor Solplan Review: the independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 10 20:30:21 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA12178 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:30:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA28878; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:23:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:19:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA28182 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:19:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from edam.direct.ca (edam.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA28173 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:18:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from reg-53-0191.direct.ca ([216.66.142.91] helo=direct.ca) by edam.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10Aknx-0006DZ-00; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:20:34 -0800 Message-ID: <36C1CC2D.73293385@direct.ca> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:13:01 -0800 From: Richard Kadulski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-SYMPA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Pailet CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Water heaters against code References: <199902090052.TAA24423@solstice.crest.org> <36C0ADAF.F77962EE@direct.ca> <36C117E7.10AF452A@gs.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Steve Pailet wrote: > Just an aside about circulating water for a heating system off of your potable water. The most important thing to know is that the water cannot be allowed to sit. It must be circulated. After the heating season is over the water circuit for heating must be thoroughly drained. Several years ago many people died when this simple act of draining the circuit was not done. We now know this is the cause of Legionaries disease. I'd like to get more information about the incident you refer to. My understanding (and various utility and regulatory folks) is that there have been very few cases of Legionnaire's disease attributed to these heating systems. About the only source of Legionnela in domestic water systems that has been identified is in electrically heated water heaters set to a low temperature (less than 130 F) Not draining a heating loop is no different than leaving the hot water system on, while you go away on an extended trip (say 3 or 4 months - not uncommon for "snowbirds" from Canada traveling south in winter). If the concern were that prevalent, we would be seeming more cases than is the case. -- Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver, BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax 604-689-11841 Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design Editor Solplan Review: the independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 11 09:38:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21768 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:38:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27938; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:31:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:26:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27341 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:26:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com ([207.46.181.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27337 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:26:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from GFX-CH - 153.35.221.144 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 06:27:44 -0800 Message-ID: <003501be55cb$29641720$a45f2299@GFX-CH> From: "carmine vasile" To: "Richard Kadulski" , "Steve Pailet" Cc: "greenbuilding" Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Water heaters against code Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:22:38 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Perhaps someone should tell HUD about Mr. Pailet's statement: "About the only source of Legionnela in domestic water systems that has been identified is in electrically heated water heaters set to a low temperature (less than 130 F) After all, Tim Allen's current TV commercial for HUD tells everyone to set water heaters @ 120F. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Kadulski To: Steve Pailet Cc: greenbuilding Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:22 PM Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Water heaters against code > > >Steve Pailet wrote: > >> Just an aside about circulating water for a heating system off of your potable water. The most important thing to know is that the water cannot be allowed to sit. It must be circulated. After the heating season is over the water circuit for heating must be thoroughly drained. Several years ago many people died when this simple act of draining the circuit was not done. We now know this is the cause of Legionaries disease. > >I'd like to get more information about the incident you refer to. > >My understanding (and various utility and regulatory folks) is that there have been very few cases of Legionnaire's disease attributed to these heating systems. About the only source of Legionnela in domestic water systems that has been identified is in electrically heated water heaters set to a low temperature (less than 130 F) > >Not draining a heating loop is no different than leaving the hot water system on, while you go away on an extended trip (say 3 or 4 months - not uncommon for "snowbirds" from Canada traveling south in winter). If the concern were that prevalent, we would be seeming more cases than is the case. > >-- > >Richard Kadulski Architect >204 - 1037 West Broadway >Vancouver, BC V6H 1E3 > >Tel/fax 604-689-11841 > >Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design >Editor Solplan Review: the independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice > > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 11 09:54:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA21968 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:54:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29300; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:47:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:43:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28816 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:43:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA28809 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:43:37 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ192362; Thu, 11 Feb 99 07:45:03 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA177460; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:44:57 -0700 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:44:57 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: "Peter R. Nobile, III, AIA" Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Dartmouth NH Food Coop/NOT FOUND Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Peter or anyone: I tried to find more info on the above but neither the project nor the designers seem to be on the internet? Any leads for published information? Thank you for considering my request.Jorg Ostrowski ___________________________________________ Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 15:20:17 -0500 From: "Peter R. Nobile, III, AIA" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Subject: GBlist: food store (commercial) retrofit Try the Dartmouth NH Food Coop, designed by Arrowstreet Associates in Boston. I know they were looking at daylighting issues, but I don't know much beyond their generally good attitude toward sustainable design. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 11 11:24:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24813 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:24:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05422; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:18:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:13:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA05015 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:13:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from sbra.com ([206.67.80.99]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05011 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:13:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from sbra.com by sbra.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA29906; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:12:10 -0500 Message-ID: <36C30221.BD800806@sbra.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:15:30 -0500 From: "Peter R. Nobile, III, AIA" Reply-To: prn251@sbra.com Organization: Shepley Bulfinch Richardson and Abbott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: VOGEL@arrowstreet.com, "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Dartmouth NH Food Coop/NOT FOUND References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E3A8C4388848C4BB51C2EB7C" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E3A8C4388848C4BB51C2EB7C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jorg - Sorry for the confusion. The project is also known as the Senterra Market / Lebanon Food Co-op. It was published in Constract Design Magazine, April 1998 issue. For more information, contact Anthony Vogel at Arrowstreet Associates (617-623-5555); I've told him you might give him a call. Also, Tony thinks that their website arrowstreet.com may have something on the project. Peter PS This e-mail address will become obsolete in one week - I'll be available at powerjan@aol.com. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > Peter or anyone: I tried to find more info on the above but neither the > project nor the designers seem to be on the internet? Any leads for > published information? Thank you for considering my request.Jorg Ostrowski > ___________________________________________ > Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 15:20:17 -0500 > From: "Peter R. Nobile, III, AIA" > To: GreenBuilding Listserver > Cc: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" > Subject: GBlist: food store (commercial) retrofit > Try the Dartmouth NH Food Coop, designed by Arrowstreet Associates in > Boston. > I know they were looking at daylighting issues, but I don't know much > beyond > their generally good attitude toward sustainable design. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- _________________________________________________ Peter R. Nobile III, AIA Shepley Bulfinch Richardson and Abbott 40 Broad Street Boston, MA 02109 tel 617.423.1700 x 251 fax 617.451.2420 e pnobile@sbra.com ________________________________________________ --------------E3A8C4388848C4BB51C2EB7C Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for peter nobile Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: peter nobile n: ;peter nobile email;internet: prn251@sbra.com x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------E3A8C4388848C4BB51C2EB7C-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 11 12:19:21 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA26446 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:19:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA08521; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:12:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:08:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA08097 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:08:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA08090 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <1TX8LX1N>; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:05:33 -0500 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF44A42E@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'Sucila Fernandes'" , "'GreenBuilding List'" Cc: "'Michael_J._Fischer@armstrong.com'" , "Sewell, Erica" Subject: RE: GBlist: ceiling tiles Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:07:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi Sucila, Armstrong recycles mineral wool acoustical ceiling tiles, but not the fiberglass type. So far, we have returned about 45,000 sf to them and found the entire process painless. Working with Armstrong on this has been a pleasure. You should contact Mike Fischer at 717/396-3049 as he is the point man for Armstrong on the "Reclamation" program. Armstrong has invested considerable resources in this and is eager to make it easy for people to take advantage of this alternative to landfilling the old tiles. As far as reusing ACT, we have donated about 25,000 sf of the fiberglass tiles to a local "reuser" named The Loading Dock, Inc (Baltimore, MD). The tile has a rubbery surface that can be cleaned and reused. We also donated some to an organization that intended to use the fiberglass tiles as floor insulation. Regarding recycled materials in the new products, you can get Armstrong products with 10 to 75 percent recycled content, if I remember correctly. Regards, Drew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Drew George, Green Building Champion Bovis Construction Corp 7475 Wisconsin Avenue, 10th Floor Bethesda MD 20814 USA Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 http://www.bovis.com Drew.George@Bovis.com > ---------- > From: Sucila Fernandes[SMTP:sucila@umich.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 4:02 PM > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: ceiling tiles > > Does anyone know of companies that recycle old ceiling tiles? Are there > any other recycle/reuse applications for these ceiling tiles? If not, can > you send me the names of companies that would have recycled content in > their new products? Once again, this is an attempt to avoid landfilling > C&D waste and recognize potential recycling opportunities. > > Thank you for you time, > > Sincerely, > Sucila Fernandes > > Dana Building > 430 E. University (Rm:2004) > Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1115 > (734) 764-1412 > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 11 13:07:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA27391 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:07:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11734; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:00:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:56:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA11305 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:56:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA11301 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:56:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-03.netmeg.net [208.139.83.66]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA14780; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:57:18 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36C31A19.816E060@swinter.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:57:45 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: prn251@sbra.com CC: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , VOGEL@arrowstreet.com, "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Dartmouth NH Food Coop/NOT FOUND References: <36C30221.BD800806@sbra.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi I believe it is the Centerra Market debra lombard Peter R. Nobile, III, AIA wrote: > Jorg - > > Sorry for the confusion. The project is also known as the Senterra Market / > Lebanon Food Co-op. It was published in Constract Design Magazine, April 1998 > issue. For more information, contact Anthony Vogel at Arrowstreet Associates > (617-623-5555); I've told him you might give him a call. Also, Tony thinks > that their website arrowstreet.com may have something on the project. > > Peter > > PS This e-mail address will become obsolete in one week - I'll be available at powerjan@aol.com. > > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > > Peter or anyone: I tried to find more info on the above but neither the > > project nor the designers seem to be on the internet? Any leads for > > published information? Thank you for considering my request.Jorg Ostrowski > > ___________________________________________ > > Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 15:20:17 -0500 > > From: "Peter R. Nobile, III, AIA" > > To: GreenBuilding Listserver > > Cc: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" > > Subject: GBlist: food store (commercial) retrofit > > Try the Dartmouth NH Food Coop, designed by Arrowstreet Associates in > > Boston. > > I know they were looking at daylighting issues, but I don't know much > > beyond > > their generally good attitude toward sustainable design. > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > -- > _________________________________________________ > > Peter R. Nobile III, AIA > > Shepley Bulfinch Richardson and Abbott > 40 Broad Street > Boston, MA 02109 > > tel 617.423.1700 x 251 > fax 617.451.2420 > e pnobile@sbra.com > > ________________________________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > peter nobile > > peter nobile > > Netscape Conference Address > Netscape Conference DLS Server > Additional Information: > Last Name > First Name peter nobile > Version 2.1 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 11 13:39:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA28146 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:39:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13759; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:33:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:28:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA13212 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:28:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA13206 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:28:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.20] (newhenyusr0-a20.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.20]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA01431; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:30:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:30:10 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: CN Subject: Re: GBlist: my cup of tea Cc: "David F. Lambertson" , "PETER F. ALSPACH" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Sacie & Peter, Peter wrote: ---------------- Since they are both electric, Watts * time = Energy used For the Sunbeam: 1450W*2.25 min= 3625 W-min. for (.5l I'm assuming) Or, 0.054375 kWh For your microwave?? V. easy to compare. Pete Alspach ------------------ It's not quite so simple. The listed wattage or amps ratings on many appliances are wildly inaccurate. This is mainly true of those that are electronic, as opposed to those that are simpler electrical appliances. My solar/hydro powered house includes watt meters so I have checked a lot of appliances. Most electronic devices actually use much less power than is listed on their labels. The computer which I am using right now for instance says 6 amps at 120 volts on it's label. 6 amps x 120 volts = 720 watts. As measured by a wattmeter, it is actually drawing only 75 watts, or almost 10 times less than the label! Even if I loaded this computer with lots of hard drives and PCI cards and memory chips it would never come close to using a fraction of 720 watts. I do not have a microwave, so I haven't checked them, but microwaves are electronic so I would be very cautious of believing the label. Simpler things like resistance heaters tend to be labelled much more accurately. So, to get an accuate fix on how much power your microwave uses to boil a given amount of water, you'd have to use a wattmeter on it. Even when I've called manufacturer's technical departments, the engineers frequently don't know how many watts the appliance actually uses!! Or, they will just read you the same number as on the label. This situation is a hint at how little importance is given to energy efficiency. There have been inexpensive wattmeter's developed lately and they have been reported on in this list. Perhaps there is a list participant who has actually measured the watts used by a microwave to boil water and can share that information with the list. By the way, I recently read an EPA document that indicates the EPA is fully aware of this problem in labeling. Now, if they could just pass a law that requires the actual energy usage of products to be printed on their labels. Perhaps the reason manufacturers so often show much higher power usage is to prevent liability problems. Chris Neurath, ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 11 14:09:28 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28784 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA16079; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:02:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:58:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA15477 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:58:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15468 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:58:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-95-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.95]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25308; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:59:56 -0500 Message-ID: <36C328A2.E51414C0@together.net> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:59:46 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: carmine vasile CC: Richard Kadulski , Steve Pailet , greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Water heaters against code References: <003501be55cb$29641720$a45f2299@GFX-CH> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk When deciding what water storage temperature to use, be sure to consider the risk of scalding with very hot domestic HW supply temperatures. Many commercial codes limit delivered temperature to 110 F max, meaning water mixing devices or pressure compensating fixtures should be used. Primarily scalding risk is to young children and elderly . Tom Anderson carmine vasile wrote: > Perhaps someone should tell HUD about Mr. Pailet's statement: "About the > only source of Legionnela in domestic water systems that has been identified > is in electrically heated water heaters set to a low temperature (less than > 130 F) > After all, Tim Allen's current TV commercial for HUD tells everyone to > set water heaters @ 120F. > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Kadulski > To: Steve Pailet > Cc: greenbuilding > Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:22 PM > Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Water heaters against code > > > > > > >Steve Pailet wrote: > > > >> Just an aside about circulating water for a heating system off of your > potable water. The most important thing to know is that the water cannot be > allowed to sit. It must be circulated. After the heating season is over > the water circuit for heating must be thoroughly drained. Several years ago > many people died when this simple act of draining the circuit was not done. > We now know this is the cause of Legionaries disease. > > > >I'd like to get more information about the incident you refer to. > > > >My understanding (and various utility and regulatory folks) is that there > have been very few cases of Legionnaire's disease attributed to these > heating systems. About the only source of Legionnela in domestic water > systems that has been identified is in electrically heated water heaters set > to a low temperature (less than 130 F) > > > >Not draining a heating loop is no different than leaving the hot water > system on, while you go away on an extended trip (say 3 or 4 months - not > uncommon for "snowbirds" from Canada traveling south in winter). If the > concern were that prevalent, we would be seeming more cases than is the > case. > > > >-- > > > >Richard Kadulski Architect > >204 - 1037 West Broadway > >Vancouver, BC V6H 1E3 > > > >Tel/fax 604-689-11841 > > > >Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design > >Editor Solplan Review: the independent journal of energy conservation, > building science & construction practice > > > > > > > > > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 11 18:41:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA06201 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:41:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03563; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:34:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:29:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02806 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:29:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02791; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:29:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp018.cd.centuryinter.net (ppp018.cd.centuryinter.net [209.142.147.90]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA26730; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:29:49 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36C39899.D3D@centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:57:30 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Reply-To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: coblist@deatech.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: fannie mae financing Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Today my banker told me that he couldn't give me fannie mae financing because there are no comprable sales in Northern Michigan. He would give a bank financed loan at about two and one half percentage points higher. Of course I would prefer a fannie mae loan. Any help out there. I am busily searching the archives as you read this. Thanks. Keith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 11 18:54:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA06423 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:54:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05161; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:48:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:43:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04329 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:43:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04314; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:43:21 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id HYHRa01428; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:38:51 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <735d5218.36c36a0b@aol.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:38:51 EST To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net, coblist@deatech.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: fannie mae financing Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated 99-02-11 18:33:03 EST, flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net writes: << Of course I would prefer a fannie mae loan. Any help out there. I am busily searching the archives as you read this. >> HOGWASH Fannie Mae guidelines are just that GUIDELINES NOT hard and fast rules -- what this basically means is that the appraiser didn't have the b------ to write a letter suggesting that the house still had merit as a super insulated etc etc structure --- ask for a copy of the appraisal, which you are by federal law entitled to, email me for my fax number and I'll write you a response letter Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 11 21:35:00 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA08756 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:34:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12517; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:28:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:24:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12099 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:24:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA12091 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:23:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-03-108.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.128.108]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA02175; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:24:17 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: From: "John Straube" To: "Tom Anderson" , "carmine vasile" Cc: "Richard Kadulski" , "Steve Pailet" , "greenbuilding" Subject: RE: GBlist: RE: Water heaters against code Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:27:43 -0500 Message-ID: <000201be562f$45229ae0$6c80b7d1@jfstraube> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <36C328A2.E51414C0@together.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk When I worked in Germany we were required by their code to heat water to at least 60 Celsius to prevent diseases from flourishing. The same is apparently true of Belgium. Scalding is then "prevented" by a mixing valve which costs money and adds complexity. I would run the WH at 60 C, not higher to avoid standy losses, and then ensure that the hot water out line was parallel to the cold water in, so that the outgoing hot water was cooled by preheating incoming water. In most apps I consider the growth of baceria a greater danger than scalding, which shouldbe under operator control. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------ John Straube Building Envelope Eng. Building Eng Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone 519 741 7920 Fax 519 885 5193 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 11 21:57:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA09086 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:57:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA13584; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:51:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:47:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA13213 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:46:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA13209 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:46:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 18835 invoked by alias); 12 Feb 1999 02:48:37 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 18782 invoked by uid 0); 12 Feb 1999 02:48:36 -0000 Received: from kdialup80.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.180.241.80) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 12 Feb 1999 02:48:36 -0000 Message-ID: <000701be5631$e23a2440$50f1b4d1@h5n5y7> From: "PETER F. ALSPACH" To: , "CN" Cc: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: my cup of tea Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:46:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk So, since the Sunbeam is most likely using resistance heat, are those numbers (1450W) more accurate? I'd be interested to know the actual vs. label consumption for other devices you've tested as well. Thanks, Pete ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 11 22:44:03 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA09783 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:44:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA15954; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:37:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:33:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15468 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:33:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from kalessin.southern.co.nz (kalessin.southern.co.nz [202.37.188.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15456 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:32:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (mail@localhost) by kalessin.southern.co.nz (8.8.5/8.6.6.Beta6) id QAA20002 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:34:30 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from ppp119.southern.co.nz(202.37.189.119) by kalessin.southern.co.nz via smap (V2.0) id xma019985; Fri, 12 Feb 99 16:34:03 +1300 X-Sender: bywateri@southern.co.nz Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:41:15 +1200 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: bywateri@convertech.co.nz (Ian Bywater) Subject: GBlist: Water heaters Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk John Straube, and others It is standard now in New Zealand to have customer adjustable thermostat on the hot water cylinders and a tempering (3 port mixing) value, usually set by the plumber to 55 Celsius. The cylinders have a high grade of foam insulation. This has considerable benefit towards energy efficiency. More importantly, safety from first degree burns, particularly children and those in the community whose reactions are less quick than normal. Ian Bywater Christchurch, NZ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 11 23:19:42 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA10313 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:19:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA18633; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:12:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:09:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18326 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:08:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18322 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:08:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (st-ppp26.hevanet.com [198.5.254.18]) by hevanet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA14624; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 20:10:27 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36C3A9AF.5539CB85@hevanet.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 20:10:13 -0800 From: "Michael O'Brien" Reply-To: obrien@hevanet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: fannie mae financing References: <36C39899.D3D@centuryinter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Keith-- Ask your lender to look at Freddie Mac Form 70A, the "Energy Addendum". It's also referred to as Fannie Mae Form 1004A. This form allows the appraiser to use the net present value of the estimated annual energy saving, instead of comparable sales. Best, Mike Keith Breuker wrote: > > Today my banker told me that he couldn't give me fannie mae financing > because there are no comprable sales in Northern Michigan. He would > give a bank financed loan at about two and one half percentage points > higher. Of course I would prefer a fannie mae loan. Any help out > there. I am busily searching the archives as you read this. > > Thanks. > > Keith > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 12 02:02:41 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA12830 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:02:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA25018; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 01:55:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Feb 1999 01:49:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA24693 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 01:49:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (r0lwxCEqr4PI+Uv10NgwKUhhX4s11uOX@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA24689 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 01:49:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (mvAKlIA8te1DTFX5GbyBds3k/OKHYu2f@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA12806; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:50:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (thalp1.gs.net [204.252.209.178]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA01027; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:50:47 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36C3CF3B.C6B0E1FA@gs.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:50:35 -0600 From: Steve Pailet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "David F. Lambertson" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: my cup of tea References: <1.5.4.32.19990210231913.0071a9f8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I have no idea how much energy it takes but I do know that it takes a minute to heat the water in the microwave. So If you have a 800 watt microwave I would say it actually would consume much less power. This said I still like my hotshot... Have had one in the house for over 30 years. Though I am well into my 4th one... Steve P "David F. Lambertson" wrote: > At 09:23 AM 10-02-99 -0500, you wrote: > >At 5:23 AM -0800 2/10/99, Dan and Pam Harazim wrote: > >>We have a "Hotshot", made by Sunbeam. It's a small reservoir that holds > >>up to .5L of water. This reservoir sits on a pedestal and has a > >>dispenser in the bottom, and a cup fits underneath. It's fast (2 > >>minutes and 15 seconds), produces boiling (not merely hot) water, and > >>shuts off immediately after the water comes to a boil. At 1450 watts, > >>I'm sure someone can tell us how it rates. > > > >This is what we have at the Environmental Building News office also. You > >only heat what you're going to use and no stand-by losses. Except for the > >plastic lid that's broken, I think it's the way to go for an office or > >household that needs to make a cup of tea now and then. > > > > Anyone know how this method compares to energy use via a cup of hot water > from a microwave? Sacie Lambertson > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 12 02:07:07 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA12867 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:07:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA25391; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Feb 1999 01:56:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA25041 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 01:56:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (1QhWcAeGr9ahdEVP0I/Jgu9prEaPOfDc@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA25035 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 01:56:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (Lg5UZgcBSK4N4+RKT8NK7rp7Lwma+Zjy@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA13064; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:57:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (thalp1.gs.net [204.252.209.178]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA01216; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:57:38 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36C3D0D6.D0E0859B@gs.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:57:27 -0600 From: Steve Pailet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tom Anderson CC: carmine vasile , Richard Kadulski , greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Water heaters against code References: <003501be55cb$29641720$a45f2299@GFX-CH> <36C328A2.E51414C0@together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I think that BOCA codes have been changed here so that any new installations of single lever mixing valves need to be anti scald types. Though I have not seen very much in the way of anti scald devices for two and three handle valves. Anyone know if this is really nation wide on the codes covering anti scald valves/// Steve P Tom Anderson wrote: > When deciding what water storage temperature to use, be sure to consider the > risk of scalding with very hot domestic HW supply temperatures. Many commercial > codes limit delivered temperature to 110 F max, meaning water mixing devices or > pressure compensating fixtures should be used. Primarily scalding risk is to > young children and elderly > . > Tom Anderson > > carmine vasile wrote: > > > Perhaps someone should tell HUD about Mr. Pailet's statement: "About the > > only source of Legionnela in domestic water systems that has been identified > > is in electrically heated water heaters set to a low temperature (less than > > 130 F) > > After all, Tim Allen's current TV commercial for HUD tells everyone to > > set water heaters @ 120F. > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Kadulski > > To: Steve Pailet > > Cc: greenbuilding > > Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 8:22 PM > > Subject: Re: GBlist: RE: Water heaters against code > > > > > > > > > > >Steve Pailet wrote: > > > > > >> Just an aside about circulating water for a heating system off of your > > potable water. The most important thing to know is that the water cannot be > > allowed to sit. It must be circulated. After the heating season is over > > the water circuit for heating must be thoroughly drained. Several years ago > > many people died when this simple act of draining the circuit was not done. > > We now know this is the cause of Legionaries disease. > > > > > >I'd like to get more information about the incident you refer to. > > > > > >My understanding (and various utility and regulatory folks) is that there > > have been very few cases of Legionnaire's disease attributed to these > > heating systems. About the only source of Legionnela in domestic water > > systems that has been identified is in electrically heated water heaters set > > to a low temperature (less than 130 F) > > > > > >Not draining a heating loop is no different than leaving the hot water > > system on, while you go away on an extended trip (say 3 or 4 months - not > > uncommon for "snowbirds" from Canada traveling south in winter). If the > > concern were that prevalent, we would be seeming more cases than is the > > case. > > > > > >-- > > > > > >Richard Kadulski Architect > > >204 - 1037 West Broadway > > >Vancouver, BC V6H 1E3 > > > > > >Tel/fax 604-689-11841 > > > > > >Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design > > >Editor Solplan Review: the independent journal of energy conservation, > > building science & construction practice > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >______________________________________________________________________ > > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 12 02:13:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA12930 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:13:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA26255; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:06:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:01:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA25601 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:01:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (1RGibhXFcpj0wMD5R55WTKbW/eT6iEai@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA25570 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 02:01:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (iURNoJtaBs29NPOBp04vZmLnKzRdYk7o@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA13404; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 01:02:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (thalp1.gs.net [204.252.209.178]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA01351; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 01:02:41 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36C3D206.D4C92601@gs.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 01:02:30 -0600 From: Steve Pailet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve McCarthy CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Fwd: GBlist: Retrofitting mass in wood frame construction References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk About the only thing that you are going to accomplish with one inch of sheet rock on the walls is to give yourself a much higher fire rating than you have currently. There is not a great deal of U value to sheet rock so I do not think this is going to accomplish the changes that you would like. Really sounds like you need to do something about moving air into and out of the room so that you can make better use of the heat which is being produced by your stove. Steve P Steve McCarthy wrote: > Subject: GBlist: Retrofitting mass in wood frame construction > Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:53:29 -0500 > From: "Steve McCarthy" > To: > > I live in a 100 year old , two story , wood framed house in northern Pennsylvania. The house has been heated with wood since it was built and I'm now using a single small cast iron stove to heat the entire house. > I am planning to renovate the room containing the wood heater this summer. Something that was recently mentioned in the discussion of the house in Vermont without a furnace caught my attention. It was the possibility of using double drywall to increase > the mass of a building. > The room in question is 22x16 with 8 ft walls. Believe it or not all the wall surfaces are wood and lots of it. The walls have 2 one inch layers of wood on the interior. The cavity is 3.5 inches filled with high density cellulose on the exterior walls. The outside of the frame has two one inch layers of wood. Like I said, lots of wood. > The ceiling is also wood although they scrimped there ,using only one inch of tongue and groove. The entire interior is coated with several layers of old, and I assume, lead based paint. > I occasionally experience overheating in this room when using the wood heater. I plan to encapsulate the painted surfaces in this room with Sheetrock. > My questions to the group: will using one full inch of sheetrock instead of a half have any effect on the occasional overheating problem? Are there any other benefits that would result from double thick sheetrock? I don't want to use the additional materials unless it is beneficial from an energy perspective. > I should add that this room is exposed to the exterior on one long and one short wall and has a conditioned space above it and an unheated basement below it. > > Thanks-Steve McCarthy > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 12 08:43:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA17705 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:43:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07684; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:36:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:32:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07340 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:32:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07336 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:32:34 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ751458; Fri, 12 Feb 99 06:33:50 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA39374; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 06:33:48 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 06:33:48 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Steve Pailet Cc: "David F. Lambertson" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: my cup of tea In-Reply-To: <36C3CF3B.C6B0E1FA@gs.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk You said:" This said I still like my hotshot... Have had one in the house for over 30 years. Though I am well into my 4th one..." ___________________________________________________________________________ Steve: I do not understand why you would like this product if each new heater only lasts an average of 7 years? If that was the case, I would not bother. Am I missing your point? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 12 09:30:07 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA18728 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:30:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09754; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:23:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:19:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09421 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:19:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09417 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:19:22 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ797012; Fri, 12 Feb 99 07:20:51 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA144908; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:20:13 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:20:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: doelle Cc: aquaponics@townsqr.com, GreenBuilding Listserver , iaq@onelist.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, thomil@bioelectrifier.com Subject: GBlist: Water Treatment In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990212155734.006c5560@ozemail.com.au> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk You said:"Ozone is certainly very effective, whereas one has to be careful with UV, since UV can result in 'changed or mutated ' pathogens. For your purpose, however, uv certainly will help. In comparing both methods I think that ozone is more effective. However, I have not done a comparative experiments. I am a bit suspicious about using UV, the reason of which is simply that we used to use UV for producing mutants." __________________________________________________________________________ Horst or anyone: If UV can mutate pathogens, what serious side effects could ozone have in the treatment of drinking water (from the roof). UV is rated for flow rates and therefore what happens to water and the pathogens in a stagnant situation (no flow) which may happen for many hours of each day? I know that the water gets warm, and each of my 2 27-watt lamps (the other one for the reuse water system) uses 237 kWh/year. That represents 28% of total electrical use for home and office. To reduce energy consumption, to use energy more wisely and to increase the effectiveness of treatment, I am thinking of trying either standard ozone treatment or a bioelectrifier.Comments are welcomed. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 12 10:02:38 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19422 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:02:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11925; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:55:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:51:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11468 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:50:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11461 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:50:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.89] (newhenyusr0-a89.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.89]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA03875; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:52:25 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:52:25 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Greenbuilding discussion list From: CN Subject: GBlist: my cup of tea Cc: Steve Pailet Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:50:35 -0600 From: Steve Pailet Subject: Re: GBlist: my cup of tea I have no idea how much energy it takes but I do know that it takes a minute to heat the water in the microwave. So If you have a 800 watt microwave I would say it actually would consume much less power. This said I still like my hotshot... Have had one in the house for over 30 years. Though I am well into my 4th one... Steve P -------------------------------- Steve, I didn't mention it in my earlier post about determining the actual watts used by appliances, but microwaves add one more level of confusion than other appliances. They are advertised as having a certain power in watts, but this is not even meant to be the same as the actual consumption. It is similar to the situation with ratings of stereo equipment and speakers, where they are rated at "sound watts", which seems to bear little relationship to electrical watts. This practice has been reduced in recent years for stereo equipment, but I think it is still standard practice to advertise microwaves in "heating ability watts". Since I haven't actually measured microwave ovens, I can't give you any real world answers, but I have read that the total real watts drawn can be much more than the "microwave watts". And both of these are probably different than the labelled watts. I've heard things like a 800 watt microwave might really draw 1500 watts, which means to boil one cup of water (if that's what you mean by "the water") in one minute with such a device may use about the same amount of water as a hotshot that takes about 1500 watts to boil 2 cups of water (0.5 liter) in about 2 minutes. Unfortunately, neither you nor the hotshot poster were specific about how much water is boiled in the times you mention. Watt-hours are a measure of power, and they are the relevant unit of measurement for determining the relative efficiencies of devices. Watts alone, without the time factor, are meaningless. And of course, the amount of water boiled is also essential to know when determining relative efficiencies. So, how about everyone getting out their stopwatches and measuring cups the next time they make their preferred hot beverage. Oh, and don't forget that true boiling (water to 100 degrees C or 212 degrees F at sea level) requires more heat than just getting the water hot, which is what some automatic coffee brewers do. So those people will have to also get a thermometer to measure the temperature. I'll be looking for the results posted here. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 12 10:04:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19476 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:04:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11737; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:53:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:48:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11264 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:48:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11259; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:48:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (STD1.2/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA16298; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:50:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA15397; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:50:15 -0500 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:50:15 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Keith Breuker Cc: coblist@deatech.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: fannie mae financing In-Reply-To: <36C39899.D3D@centuryinter.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Have you thought about getting another banker? On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Keith Breuker wrote: > Today my banker told me that he couldn't give me fannie mae financing > because there are no comprable sales in Northern Michigan. He would > give a bank financed loan at about two and one half percentage points > higher. Of course I would prefer a fannie mae loan. Any help out > there. I am busily searching the archives as you read this. > > Thanks. > > Keith > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 12 12:52:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24428 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:52:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22395; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:44:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:38:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21766 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:38:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from multi13.netcomi.com (dkdalton@multi13.netcomi.com [204.58.155.213]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21224 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:32:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dkdalton@localhost) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id LAA23677; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:26:41 -0600 Received: from onelist.com (www.onelist.com [209.207.164.201]) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id LAA23660 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:26:35 -0600 Received: (qmail 5297 invoked by uid 99); 12 Feb 1999 16:20:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 11375 invoked from network); 12 Feb 1999 14:22:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca) (136.159.244.11) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 12 Feb 1999 14:22:04 -0000 received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ797012; Fri, 12 Feb 99 07:20:51 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA144908; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:20:13 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:20:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Old-To: doelle Cc: aquaponics@townsqr.com, GreenBuilding Listserver , iaq@onelist.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, thomil@bioelectrifier.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990212155734.006c5560@ozemail.com.au> Message-Id: Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact iaq-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: GBlist: [iaq] Water Treatment X-Loop: dkdalton@aztecenvironmental.com To: aztecfw@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" You said:"Ozone is certainly very effective, whereas one has to be careful with UV, since UV can result in 'changed or mutated ' pathogens. For your purpose, however, uv certainly will help. In comparing both methods I think that ozone is more effective. However, I have not done a comparative experiments. I am a bit suspicious about using UV, the reason of which is simply that we used to use UV for producing mutants." __________________________________________________________________________ Horst or anyone: If UV can mutate pathogens, what serious side effects could ozone have in the treatment of drinking water (from the roof). UV is rated for flow rates and therefore what happens to water and the pathogens in a stagnant situation (no flow) which may happen for many hours of each day? I know that the water gets warm, and each of my 2 27-watt lamps (the other one for the reuse water system) uses 237 kWh/year. That represents 28% of total electrical use for home and office. To reduce energy consumption, to use energy more wisely and to increase the effectiveness of treatment, I am thinking of trying either standard ozone treatment or a bioelectrifier.Comments are welcomed. Jorg Ostrowski ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the week: Environews by Topic: Table of Contents http://ehis.niehs.nih.gov/topic/ Environews by Topic categorizes all Environews articles published in Environmental Health Perspectives since 1993 under more than 45 different environmental health topics, including chemical exposures, environmental medicine, legislation and policy issues, indoor pollution, environmental justice, and urban issues. URL to articles on "Indoor Pollution" http://ehis.niehs.nih.gov/topic/indoorpol.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 12 12:53:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24442 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:53:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21937; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:39:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:33:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21254 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:33:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from multi4.netcomi.com (rjbynum@multi4.netcomi.com [204.58.155.204]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20833 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:27:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from rjbynum@localhost) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id LAA01601; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:26:59 -0600 Received: from onelist.com (www.onelist.com [209.207.164.201]) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id RAA01594 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:26:56 GMT Received: (qmail 5297 invoked by uid 99); 12 Feb 1999 16:20:31 -0000 Received: (qmail 11375 invoked from network); 12 Feb 1999 14:22:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca) (136.159.244.11) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 12 Feb 1999 14:22:04 -0000 received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ797012; Fri, 12 Feb 99 07:20:51 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA144908; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:20:13 -0700 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:20:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Old-To: doelle Cc: aquaponics@townsqr.com, GreenBuilding Listserver , iaq@onelist.com, freenrg-l@eskimo.com, thomil@bioelectrifier.com In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990212155734.006c5560@ozemail.com.au> Message-Id: Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact iaq-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: GBlist: [iaq] Water Treatment X-Loop: rbynum@usenergycontrols.com To: rjbynum@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" You said:"Ozone is certainly very effective, whereas one has to be careful with UV, since UV can result in 'changed or mutated ' pathogens. For your purpose, however, uv certainly will help. In comparing both methods I think that ozone is more effective. However, I have not done a comparative experiments. I am a bit suspicious about using UV, the reason of which is simply that we used to use UV for producing mutants." __________________________________________________________________________ Horst or anyone: If UV can mutate pathogens, what serious side effects could ozone have in the treatment of drinking water (from the roof). UV is rated for flow rates and therefore what happens to water and the pathogens in a stagnant situation (no flow) which may happen for many hours of each day? I know that the water gets warm, and each of my 2 27-watt lamps (the other one for the reuse water system) uses 237 kWh/year. That represents 28% of total electrical use for home and office. To reduce energy consumption, to use energy more wisely and to increase the effectiveness of treatment, I am thinking of trying either standard ozone treatment or a bioelectrifier.Comments are welcomed. Jorg Ostrowski ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the week: Environews by Topic: Table of Contents http://ehis.niehs.nih.gov/topic/ Environews by Topic categorizes all Environews articles published in Environmental Health Perspectives since 1993 under more than 45 different environmental health topics, including chemical exposures, environmental medicine, legislation and policy issues, indoor pollution, environmental justice, and urban issues. URL to articles on "Indoor Pollution" http://ehis.niehs.nih.gov/topic/indoorpol.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 12 18:18:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA00924 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:18:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA09575; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:11:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:06:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA09255 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:06:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from swiss.direct.ca (swiss.direct.ca [199.60.229.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA09251 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:06:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from reg-53-0130.direct.ca ([216.66.142.30] helo=direct.ca) by swiss.direct.ca with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #21) id 10BRhE-0004OT-00 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:08:28 -0800 Message-ID: <36C4741B.C44BC310@direct.ca> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:34:03 -0800 From: Richard Kadulski X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-SYMPA (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: my cup of tea References: <199902120700.CAA25389@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > - > From: Chris Neurath > It's not quite so simple. The listed wattage or amps ratings on many > appliances are wildly inaccurate. This is mainly true of those that are > electronic, as opposed to those that are simpler electrical appliances. My > solar/hydro powered house includes watt meters so I have checked a lot of > appliances. Most electronic devices actually use much less power than is > listed on their labels. The computer which I am using right now for > instance says 6 amps at 120 volts on it's label. 6 amps x 120 volts = 720 > watts. As measured by a wattmeter, it is actually drawing only 75 watts, > or almost 10 times less than the label! Even if I loaded this computer > with lots of hard drives and PCI cards and memory chips it would never come > close to using a fraction of 720 watts. I'm not an electrical engineer, but I believe that the ratings are peak capacity or peak power draw numbers. When an appliance is turned on, it takes more power to start up (in effect, overcome the friction when standing), and then power ebbs to running conditions - not unlike the extra effort needed to start a car. In the case of heating appliances that use electricity, the power draw will fluctuate, as heat is needed - not unlike an electric heater that cycles on and off. > By the way, I recently read an EPA document that indicates the EPA is fully aware of this problem in > labeling. Now, if they could just pass a law that requires the actual energy usage of products to > be printed on their labels. Perhaps what's needed is more information on how ratings are prepared, and maybe more carefuly defined ranges. > > Perhaps the reason manufacturers so often show much higher power usage is > to prevent liability problems. -- Richard Kadulski Architect 204 - 1037 West Broadway Vancouver, BC V6H 1E3 Tel/fax 604-689-11841 Climate adapted, energy sensitive, sustainable and healthy design Editor Solplan Review: the independent journal of energy conservation, building science & construction practice ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 12 18:56:53 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA01341 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:56:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA11248; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:50:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:45:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA10872 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:45:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10868 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:45:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 24099 invoked by alias); 12 Feb 1999 23:46:41 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 24029 invoked by uid 0); 12 Feb 1999 23:46:40 -0000 Received: from kdialup142.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.180.241.142) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 12 Feb 1999 23:46:40 -0000 Message-ID: <006901be56e1$a054e0a0$8ef1b4d1@h5n5y7> From: "PETER F. ALSPACH" To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , "doelle" Cc: , "GreenBuilding Listserver" , , , Subject: Re: GBlist: Water Treatment Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:44:25 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk With regards to UV treatment- I had a conversation with an engineer at NREL the other day and he mentioned that most UV lamps are recommended to run all the time. He said one problem with current designs is that when you turn off the lamp, any water in the chamber is not treated properly when flow resumes and the lamp comes on again. If this is indeed the case, I can see those lamps consuming an enormous amount of energy. What lower energy alternatives are there? I know solar pasteurizing is pretty effective, but not against everything. Also, flow rates are fairly low. How does ozone work within a renewable energy focus? Thanks, Peter Alspach ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 13 06:22:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA08817 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:22:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA28522; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:15:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:11:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA28280 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:10:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA28276 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:10:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-10-146.cyberzone.net [209.150.10.146]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 05:52:16 -0500 Message-ID: <36C58922.1331@cyberzone.net> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:16:02 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Harazim Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: my cup of tea References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Jorg wrote: > Steve: I do not understand why you would like this product if each new > heater only lasts an average of 7 years? If that was the case, I would not > bother. Am I missing your point? Jorg Ostrowski Jorg, We are on our second Hotshot in 10 years, so the only thing I can suggest is that all devices (i.e. everything we humans endeavour to create) wear out in time, much to our chagrin. The device is, after all, made of plastic, and the lid can break, and the little valve clogs over time with deposits and can be a bear to clean. It's still, overall, a great product that works very well, as anyone who uses them will attest. I also think it's a very efficient way to heat water, the reason this thread started! I suppose someone could create the perfect hotshot that never wears out. Perhaps there's a perfect Euro hotshot out there, or maybe the Defense Department has one rated for bombers and submarines, but then it would no doubt cost $500 ($8,000 in the latter case) and no one would buy them, instead being forced to heat their water with kettles, microwaves, or two sticks rubbed together, as we did before the Hotshot came along. How many people keep their cars for 7 years? So go out and get yourself a Hotshot. It's made by Sunbeam and costs about $28 US. They're not always easy to find, but can be ordered through Ace Hardware stores. There's also a sunbeam.com, but they want a lot more. We just bought one as a gift. Enjoy! Regards and happy boiling, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 13 08:27:57 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA09463 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:27:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01149; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:21:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:17:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00864 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:17:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00860 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:17:01 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ471981; Sat, 13 Feb 99 06:18:34 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA21170; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:17:44 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 06:17:43 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Dan and Pam Harazim Cc: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: my cup of tea In-Reply-To: <36C58922.1331@cyberzone.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dan: Thanks for the explanation.Why would it be cheaper from ACE Hardware rather than from the manufacturer at sunbeam.com? I assume they require 220 VAC, rather than 120 VAC. BTW, I expect my vehicle to last 500,000 km without major repair. I'm at 475,000 km now. Durability is a critical element of sustainability, especially if it can offset several other normal life cycles. Jorg Ostrowski _______________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Dan and Pam Harazim wrote: > > Jorg wrote: > > Steve: I do not understand why you would like this product if each new > > heater only lasts an average of 7 years? If that was the case, I would not > > bother. Am I missing your point? Jorg Ostrowski > > Jorg, > We are on our second Hotshot in 10 years, so the only thing I can > suggest is that all devices (i.e. everything we humans endeavour to > create) wear out in time, much to our chagrin. The device is, after > all, made of plastic, and the lid can break, and the little valve clogs > over time with deposits and can be a bear to clean. It's still, > overall, a great product that works very well, as anyone who uses them > will attest. I also think it's a very efficient way to heat water, the > reason this thread started! I suppose someone could create the perfect > hotshot that never wears out. Perhaps there's a perfect Euro hotshot out > there, or maybe the Defense Department has one rated for bombers and > submarines, but then it would no doubt cost $500 ($8,000 in the latter > case) and no one would buy them, instead being forced to heat their > water with kettles, microwaves, or two sticks rubbed together, as we did > before the Hotshot came along. How many people keep their cars for 7 > years? > > So go out and get yourself a Hotshot. It's made by Sunbeam and costs > about $28 US. They're not always easy to find, but can be ordered > through Ace Hardware stores. There's also a sunbeam.com, but they want > a lot more. We just bought one as a gift. Enjoy! > Regards and happy boiling, > Dan Harazim > Canterbury, CT > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 13 10:16:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA10027 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:16:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03910; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:09:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:05:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA03617 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:05:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA03613 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:05:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.35] (rkd011.acadia.net [208.244.128.35]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA08558 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:07:09 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:05:45 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Opportunity near Albany, NY Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear Folks, A former client, for whom we designed and built a superinsulated, sun-tempered house here in Maine, has a nephew who would like to build a similar kind of project north of Albany, NY, near the western Massachusetts border. This person needs design advice, construction detailing, and a builder familiar with this kind of construction. He already owns a parcel of land, would like to break ground this year, and aims for a home of about 2000 square feet. If you're in located near this fellow, and would be interested in working with him, contact me directly (off-list) and I'll try to put you and him in touch. Thanks, folks. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 13 13:10:38 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12217 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:10:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10170; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:03:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:59:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA09797 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:59:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cruzio.com (root@mail.cruzio.com [208.226.92.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA09793 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from dell (sa-207-251-8-100.cruzio.com [207.251.8.100]) by mail.cruzio.com with SMTP id KAA17394; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:01:10 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: From: "Hal Levin" To: "\"Steve McCarthy\"" Cc: "Greenbuilding Listserv" Subject: GBlist: sheet rock thermal mass Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:00:24 -0800 Message-ID: <000201be577a$bacee360$6143fea9@dell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01BE5737.ACABA360" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BE5737.ACABA360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve: I happen to be an advocate of sheet rock mass, and my opinion is that it is worthwhile. I don't think it will reduce the overheating a lot, but of course the quantitative result depends a lot on the area that is painted which you did not specify in your message. The reply to you on the listserv said drywall wouldn't increase the U value much, and that is true and that is in your favor. It is the thermal mass you want, not resistance to heat flow. I have used doubled sheet rock successfully in the past in coastal California with wood heat and with solar. My present house is wood heated and the Jotul stove is surround on three sides by 1 foot thick concrete walls. They absorb a lot of heat. That is different from what you are dealing with but relevant. It takes a while to bring the room temperature up very far because the heat is absorbed by the concrete first. You might think about semi-enclosing the wood stove in your house to reduce the rapidity of the heating and to create a flywheel effect by storing the excess heat in the mass. Hal Levin hlevin@cruzio.com > Subject: GBlist: Retrofitting mass in wood frame construction > Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:53:29 -0500 > From: "Steve McCarthy" > To: > > I live in a 100 year old , two story , wood framed house in northern Pennsylvania. The house has been heated with wood since it was built and I'm now using a single small cast iron stove to heat the entire house. > I am planning to renovate the room containing the wood heater this summer. Something that was recently mentioned in the discussion of the house in Vermont without a furnace caught my attention. It was the possibility of using double drywall to increase > the mass of a building. > The room in question is 22x16 with 8 ft walls. Believe it or not all the wall surfaces are wood and lots of it. The walls have 2 one inch layers of wood on the interior. The cavity is 3.5 inches filled with high density cellulose on the exterior walls. The outside of the frame has two one inch layers of wood. Like I said, lots of wood. > The ceiling is also wood although they scrimped there ,using only one inch of tongue and groove. The entire interior is coated with several layers of old, and I assume, lead based paint. > I occasionally experience overheating in this room when using the wood heater. I plan to encapsulate the painted surfaces in this room with Sheetrock. > My questions to the group: will using one full inch of sheetrock instead of a half have any effect on the occasional overheating problem? Are there any other benefits that would result from double thick sheetrock? I don't want to use the additional materials unless it is beneficial from an energy perspective. > I should add that this room is exposed to the exterior on one long and one short wall and has a conditioned space above it and an unheated basement below it. > > Thanks-Steve McCarthy > ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BE5737.ACABA360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Steve:

I happen to be an advocate of sheet rock mass, and = my opinion=20 is that it is worthwhile. I don't think it will reduce the overheating a = lot,=20 but of course the quantitative result depends a lot on the area that is = painted=20 which you did not specify in your message. The reply to you on the = listserv said=20 drywall wouldn't increase the U value much, and that is true and that is = in your=20 favor. It is the thermal mass you want, not resistance to heat flow. I = have used=20 doubled sheet rock successfully in the past in coastal California with = wood heat=20 and with solar.

My present house is wood heated and the Jotul = stove is=20 surround on three sides by 1 foot thick concrete walls. They absorb a = lot of=20 heat. That is different from what you are dealing with but relevant. It = takes a=20 while to bring the room temperature up very far because the heat is = absorbed by=20 the concrete first. You might think about semi-enclosing the wood stove = in your=20 house to reduce the rapidity of the heating and to create a flywheel = effect by=20 storing the excess heat in the mass.

Hal=20 Levin  hlevin@cruzio.com

=

 

> Subject: GBlist: Retrofitting mass in wood frame = construction

> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:53:29 -0500

> From: "Steve McCarthy" <smccarth@pct.edu>

> To: <greenbuilding@crest.org>

>

> I live in a 100 year old , two story , wood framed house in = northern=20 Pennsylvania. The house has been heated with wood since it was built and = I'm now=20 using a single small cast iron stove to heat the entire house.

> I am planning to renovate the room containing the wood heater = this=20 summer. Something that was recently mentioned in the discussion of the = house in=20 Vermont without a furnace caught my attention. It was the possibility of = using=20 double drywall to increase

> the mass of a building.

> The room in question is 22x16 with 8 ft walls. Believe it or not = all the=20 wall surfaces are wood and lots of it. The walls have 2 one inch layers = of wood=20 on the interior. The cavity is 3.5 inches filled with high density = cellulose on=20 the exterior walls. The outside of the frame has two one inch layers of = wood.=20 Like I said, lots of wood.

> The ceiling is also wood although they scrimped there ,using = only one=20 inch of tongue and groove. The entire interior is coated with several = layers of=20 old, and I assume, lead based paint.

> I occasionally experience overheating in this room when using = the wood=20 heater. I plan to encapsulate the painted surfaces in this room with=20 Sheetrock.

> My questions to the group: will using one full inch of sheetrock = instead=20 of a half have any effect on the occasional overheating problem? Are = there any=20 other benefits that would result from double thick sheetrock? I don't = want to=20 use the additional materials unless it is beneficial from an energy=20 perspective.

> I should add that this room is exposed to the exterior on one = long and=20 one short wall and has a conditioned space above it and an unheated = basement=20 below it.

>

> Thanks-Steve McCarthy

>

------=_NextPart_000_0003_01BE5737.ACABA360-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 13 15:42:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA13928 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:42:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15526; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:35:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:29:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15103 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:29:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ham.nw.verio.net (ham.nw.verio.net [204.200.239.254]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15099 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:29:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp115.whatcom.pacificrim.net ([199.236.227.115] helo=pacificrim.net) by ham.nw.verio.net with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #3) id 10BliB-0002uK-00 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:30:48 -0800 Message-ID: <36C5E2AC.332686E4@pacificrim.net> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:38:04 -0800 From: Rick Dubrow X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: showroom quotations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I am remodeling my design/build remodeling showroom in the next few months. I'd love to have some wonderful, green quotations in, and around, the showroom. Got a favorite quotation that may fit this bill? Send it on, please. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 13 17:17:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15226 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:17:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA19150; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:10:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:06:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA18786 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:06:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18781 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:06:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from builder (ip13.ivnet.net [206.101.73.173]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA04126; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:53:18 -0800 Message-ID: <36C3A8C8.1519@ivnet.net> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 20:06:32 -0800 From: Bruce or Linda X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen CC: Frazer Dougherty , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Targa on-demand domestic water heaters References: <1.5.4.32.19990206020613.00a4cfe8@pop.mindspring.com> <36BBB777.D3221E48@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk John Salmen wrote: > > I was going to use a hwh in a small floor application but might use a demand > heater designed for a spa instead. Seemed potentially ideal both for flow, > temperature, cost and space (similar to hwh). Need to look at efficiency. Does > anyone have experience in using these heaters in a radiant heating application. > > john > > Frazer Dougherty wrote: > > > Also would appreciate any feedback on the recent link to "Using Hot Water > > Heaters for Radiant Heat" in The Journal of Light Construction, Nov 1998, p. 59-64 (available online at . > > Nice & concise article, although most of the diagrams had '*some components > > omitted for clarity' statments attached !!! > > I think that some of the energy efficiency calcs were not all that accurate. But I have seen systems designed and installed by one of his associates around here that appear to work fine. No analysis of fuel consumption has been done on any of these installations that I know of. Targa is good but noisy. Although it says that it wants a 15 amp circuit, I doubt that it actually pulls over a tenth of that, judging by the appearance of its little power supply. Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 13 19:24:00 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA16434 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:24:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA24479; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:17:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:12:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA23679 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:12:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA23668 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:12:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-07-99.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.129.99]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA10950; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:13:44 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: From: "John Straube" To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , "Dan and Pam Harazim" Cc: "greenbuilding" Subject: RE: GBlist: my cup of tea Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:17:21 -0500 Message-ID: <000001be57af$6426a4a0$6381b7d1@jfstraube> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org > BTW, I expect my vehicle to > last 500,000 km > without major repair. I'm at 475,000 km now. Durability is > a critical > element of sustainability, especially if it can offset several other > normal life cycles. Jorg Ostrowski I agree completely. I also purchased my car assuming 500000 km and certainly more than 7 years! If I wanted a car that lasted only 7 years and 300 000 km I could have bought a car for 2 to 3000 less, but I am convinced this is less ecologically sound. My car also gets a lot better mileage than a that cheaper car too. Buying VCR's, water heaters, etc that dont last and/or cant be repaired must have a negative impact. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 13 20:29:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA17050 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:29:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA27155; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:22:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:18:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA26852 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:18:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA26848 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:18:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.26]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 1074700 ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:39:13 -0800 Message-ID: <36C62444.FE3B2F5C@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:17:56 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jfstraube@golden.net CC: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , Dan and Pam Harazim , greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: my cup of (old) tea References: <000001be57af$6426a4a0$6381b7d1@jfstraube> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk As the tea was being brewed I too thought about the 'disposable' appliances, i.e. appliances marketed to the crowd that has surplus income to buy more than the basic food heating appliances. There is a certain irony here that the heating device will probably not produce enough energy savings to displace its own cost within its lifetime, and the same is true of automobiles - mostly a question of scale. Microwaves will become leaky, high temp products will deteriorate through repetitive use. Why? I own a luxury automobile that is 16 years old and that I bought 6 years ago for a fraction of its original cost. Both the engine and chassis could probably last me my lifetime and it is well enough designed that I might not even tire of it, though at some point if I have enough surplus income I probably would enjoy a change. It would be nice if that decision was mine to make and that what I have could be passed on to someone else wanting some variety. I've owned a number of appliances in the last decade that I really wanted, juicers, blenders, coffee makers, water kettles, electric shavers. I no longer want any of these things in my life - I cannot stand looking and dealing with their useless often hot wired carcasses. My son and I have tried to make robots of various components but it is still a sad occupation. So I now shave with a hand razor. I boil water on the range or on the woodstove. I make coffee in a tin can. I have a hand coffee grinder and a flip down toaster from the 30's. Unfortunately various relatives take pity and send more hunks of plastic our way and I do use them with a kind of temporal disassociation as I know our relationship will be short-lived and I will be plagued with disposal. (fortunately some companies Sony for example have a 100% component recycling program ? ) I'm pissed because I grew up in the advent of the age of krups and braun - sleek elegant things that I wanted to display. I once had a cuisinart convection oven that was pure glass. Now I not only worry about how long an appliance will last I also worry about the outgassing period while a myriad of flame retardants, etc. work there way into my life. I've grown to like old things not from any aesthetic but from learning to miss the notion that things could even grow old. John John Straube wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org > > BTW, I expect my vehicle to > > last 500,000 km > > without major repair. I'm at 475,000 km now. Durability is > > a critical > > element of sustainability, especially if it can offset several other > > normal life cycles. Jorg Ostrowski > I agree completely. I also purchased my car assuming 500000 km and > certainly more than 7 years! If I wanted a car that lasted only 7 > years and 300 000 km I could have bought a car for 2 to 3000 less, but > I am convinced this is less ecologically sound. My car also gets a > lot better mileage than a that cheaper car too. Buying VCR's, water > heaters, etc that dont last and/or cant be repaired must have a > negative impact. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 13 21:58:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA17848 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:58:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA00131; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:51:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:47:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA29809 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:47:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from www.ivnet.net (root@www.ivnet.net [206.101.73.130]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA29805 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:46:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from builder (ip13.ivnet.net [206.101.73.173]) by www.ivnet.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA06944; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:33:43 -0800 Message-ID: <36C610FA.7955@ivnet.net> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:55:38 -0800 From: Bruce or Linda X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: hlevin@cruzio.com CC: "\"Steve McCarthy\"" , Greenbuilding Listserv Subject: Re: GBlist: sheet rock thermal mass References: <000201be577a$bacee360$6143fea9@dell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hal Levin wrote: > > Steve: It might be nice to include a small fan in this case, to circulate convected heat away from the wood stove when trying to boost the interior house temp. Most of the radiated heat would still go into the blocks, tho. How far from the stove is the block wall, and if you could do it over again, would you change it? Bruce Donelson A Better Builder Takilma Oregon > My present house is wood heated and the Jotul stove is surround on > three sides by 1 foot thick concrete walls. They absorb a lot of heat. > That is different from what you are dealing with but relevant. It > takes a while to bring the room temperature up very far because the > heat is absorbed by the concrete first. You might think about > semi-enclosing the wood stove in your house to reduce the rapidity of > the heating and to create a flywheel effect by storing the excess heat > in the mass. > > Hal Levin hlevin@cruzio.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 13 22:21:37 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA18094 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:21:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01425; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:14:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:10:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01104 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:10:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01096 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:10:42 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ787413; Sat, 13 Feb 99 20:11:57 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA94766; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:11:51 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:11:51 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Bruce or Linda Cc: hlevin@cruzio.com, "\"Steve McCarthy\"" , Greenbuilding Listserv Subject: GBlist: stirling enngine for moving heat In-Reply-To: <36C610FA.7955@ivnet.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Bruce: One of the most appropriate ways of doing this is to use a stirling engine (ours is made in Ontario) that coverts heat (deta T) to operate a fan without the use of electricity. Just put it on top of a metal wood stove and the 14" diameter fan moves the air away from the stove. Jorg Ostrowski _________________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 13 Feb 1999, Bruce or Linda wrote: > > Hal Levin wrote: > > > > Steve: > It might be nice to include a small fan in this case, to circulate > convected heat away from the wood stove when trying to boost the > interior house temp. Most of the radiated heat would still go into the > blocks, tho. How far from the stove is the block wall, and if you could > do it over again, would you change it? > > Bruce Donelson > A Better Builder > Takilma Oregon > > > My present house is wood heated and the Jotul stove is surround on > > three sides by 1 foot thick concrete walls. They absorb a lot of heat. > > That is different from what you are dealing with but relevant. It > > takes a while to bring the room temperature up very far because the > > heat is absorbed by the concrete first. You might think about > > semi-enclosing the wood stove in your house to reduce the rapidity of > > the heating and to create a flywheel effect by storing the excess heat > > in the mass. > > > > Hal Levin hlevin@cruzio.com > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 14 00:34:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA19275 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:34:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA05792; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:27:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:23:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA05521 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:23:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from seahorse.epud.net (root@seahorse.epud.net [205.240.25.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA05517 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:23:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from dialport17.epud.net (dialport17.epud.net [209.102.14.17]) by seahorse.epud.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id UAA10580 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 20:59:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by dialport17.epud.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BE5798.7F4F46E0@dialport17.epud.net>; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:33:29 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE5798.7F4F46E0@dialport17.epud.net> From: Dean Still To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: sheet rock thermal mass Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:32:35 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear Hal, What percentage of the heat from the stove do you think would be stored in the walls near the stove? Regards, Dean Still ---------- From: Hal Levin[SMTP:hlevin@cruzio.com] Sent: Saturday, February 13, 1999 10:00 AM To: "Steve McCarthy" Cc: Greenbuilding Listserv Subject: GBlist: sheet rock thermal mass <>Steve: I happen to be an advocate of sheet rock mass, and my opinion is that it is worthwhile. I don't think it will reduce the overheating a lot, but of course the quantitative result depends a lot on the area that is painted which you did not specify in your message. The reply to you on the listserv said drywall wouldn't increase the U value much, and that is true and that is in your favor. It is the thermal mass you want, not resistance to heat flow. I have used doubled sheet rock successfully in the past in coastal California with wood heat and with solar. My present house is wood heated and the Jotul stove is surround on three sides by 1 foot thick concrete walls. They absorb a lot of heat. That is different from what you are dealing with but relevant. It takes a while to bring the room temperature up very far because the heat is absorbed by the concrete first. You might think about semi-enclosing the wood stove in your house to reduce the rapidity of the heating and to create a flywheel effect by storing the excess heat in the mass. Hal Levin hlevin@cruzio.com > Subject: GBlist: Retrofitting mass in wood frame construction > Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:53:29 -0500 > From: "Steve McCarthy" > To: > > I live in a 100 year old , two story , wood framed house in northern Pennsylvania. The house has been heated with wood since it was built and I'm now using a single small cast iron stove to heat the entire house. > I am planning to renovate the room containing the wood heater this summer. Something that was recently mentioned in the discussion of the house in Vermont without a furnace caught my attention. It was the possibility of using double drywall to increase > the mass of a building. > The room in question is 22x16 with 8 ft walls. Believe it or not all the wall surfaces are wood and lots of it. The walls have 2 one inch layers of wood on the interior. The cavity is 3.5 inches filled with high density cellulose on the exterior walls. The outside of the frame has two one inch layers of wood. Like I said, lots of wood. > The ceiling is also wood although they scrimped there ,using only one inch of tongue and groove. The entire interior is coated with several layers of old, and I assume, lead based paint. > I occasionally experience overheating in this room when using the wood heater. I plan to encapsulate the painted surfaces in this room with Sheetrock. > My questions to the group: will using one full inch of sheetrock instead of a half have any effect on the occasional overheating problem? Are there any other benefits that would result from double thick sheetrock? I don't want to use the additional materials unless it is beneficial from an energy perspective. > I should add that this room is exposed to the exterior on one long and one short wall and has a conditioned space above it and an unheated basement below it. > > Thanks-Steve McCarthy > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 14 01:41:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA19651 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 01:41:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA07326; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 01:34:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Feb 1999 01:30:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA07124 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 01:30:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA07120 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 01:30:22 -0500 (EST) From: DBunnII@aol.com Received: from DBunnII@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id FUSDa03211 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 01:31:29 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 01:31:29 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: Health House Program Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 224 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I am interested in hearing about the experiences of any homeowner or builder who has done an American Lung Association Health House project. I am planning on bulding my first spec built healthy house in Fort Collins, Colorado and felt that I should explore the Health House Advantage Certification program offered by the American Lung Association. Thank you for your response. Don Bunn II Sustainable Homescapes PO Box 830 Fort Collins, CO 80522 (970) 484-1711 dbunnii@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 14 09:08:05 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22728 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:08:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15102; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:01:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Feb 1999 08:57:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA14832 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 08:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA14828 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 08:56:57 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo14.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id SCJDa05514; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 08:57:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 08:57:06 EST To: rdubrow1@pacificrim.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: showroom quotations Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk "Put your money into the things that are hardest to change later: Good design, good relationship to the site, good foundation, good basic structure, good energy conservation. The finishes are easy to change later if you can't afford to do them all right now" This is a rough paraphrase from Marc Rosenbaum's most important contribution to this industry. Ask Marc to put it more succinctly ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 14 09:33:15 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA22834 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:33:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16120; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:26:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:22:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15717 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:22:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from garnet.sover.net (garnet.sover.net [209.198.87.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15713 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.87] (pm1a10.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.106]) by garnet.sover.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA11195; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:24:10 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:24:10 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) [207.136.199.87] from pm1a10.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.106] 207.136.199.106 Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:24:10 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <36C610FA.7955@ivnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , Greenbuilding Listserv From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: stirling enngine for moving heat Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 8:11 PM -0700 2/13/99, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: >Bruce: One of the most appropriate ways of doing this is to use a stirling >engine (ours is made in Ontario) that coverts heat (deta T) to operate a >fan without the use of electricity. Just put it on top of a metal wood >stove and the 14" diameter fan moves the air away from the stove. Jorg >Ostrowski Hello Jorg, Could you provide the contact information on this fan; I've followed Stirling engine technology for a while, and am intrigued by a commercially viable product. Thanks, -Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News 122 Birge Street, Suite 30 Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 14 09:53:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA23010 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:53:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17324; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:47:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:42:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA16726 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:42:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA16712 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 09:42:40 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ165188; Sun, 14 Feb 99 07:44:18 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA64256; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 07:43:23 -0700 Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 07:43:23 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Alex Wilson Cc: Greenbuilding Listserv Subject: Re: GBlist: stirling enngine for moving heat In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk You asked: "Hello Jorg, Could you provide the contact information on this fan; I've followed Stirling engine technology for a while, and am intrigued by a commercially viable product. Thanks," __________________________________________________________________________ Alex: We got our "Free Breeze Handcrafted Pison Fan" from Mealtime Stoves in Tavistock Ontario, contact Gerry Gascho at: phone:(519) 655-2848 fax: (519) 655-9954 e-mail:Gerry@orc.ca or Art Brown of Free Breeze Ltd. phone:(519) 887-9126 fax: (519) 348-9991 I would call Art Brown first, and use Gerry as your backup. Have a wonderful day. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 14 10:27:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA23220 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:27:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18743; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:21:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:16:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18437 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:16:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18433 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:16:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5 [134.117.136.25]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id KAA26736; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:18:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id KAA20695; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:18:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:18:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902141518.KAA20695@freenet5.carleton.ca> From: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: sheet rock, thermal m'ass Reply-To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk on Sat, 13 Feb 1999 "Hal Levin" wrote: re: sheet rock thermal mass > I happen to be an advocate of sheet rock mass, and my > opinion is that it is worthwhile. I don't think it will > reduce the overheating a lot, but [snip] Hello Hal and MassHeads; If the desire is to significantly increase the mass of the walls, then instead of just adding a piddly 1/2" or so to the surface, how about filling the wall cavities with sand ? In addition to the added thermal mass, I think the sand would discourage rodents from rooting around in the walls (a common malaise in older structures) and it might even tell one where there are leaks in the structure (evidenced by tell-tale little piles of sand under each weak point. I suppose that after each earthquake, the walls might need "topping up". Around here, one can get a tri-axle load (18 - 22 tonnes) of clean sand fill for $60-$100. That's a LOT of potential thermal mass. Cheap too, eh ? Perhaps best of all, you don't have to tape and , um, sand it... and come deconstruction time, it is ultimately re-useable in its existing form. ---------- * ---------- Rob_Tom @ ncf.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 14 13:53:07 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA24935 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:53:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA27219; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:46:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:42:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA26964 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:42:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from cwcom.net (email.mcmail.com [195.44.0.104]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA26957 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 13:42:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from m002us00 ([195.44.20.85]) by cwcom.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.5.1877.117.11); Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:44:25 +0000 From: "Phil Bixby" To: Subject: GBlist: My cup of, er, petrol Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:43:14 -0000 Message-ID: <000a01be5849$e0c953a0$75102cc3@m002us00> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Quote:- > If I wanted a car that lasted only 7 > years and 300 000 km I could have bought a car for 2 > to 3000 less, but > I am convinced this is less ecologically sound. My > car also gets a > lot better mileage than a that cheaper car too. Just out of interest, what kind of fuel consumption do you fellas in the US think of as being good these days? Phil Bixby York, UK ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 14 14:14:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA25278 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:14:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28165; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:07:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:03:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27788 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:03:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27784 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:03:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip417.efn.org [206.163.181.161]) by clavin.efn.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA22466; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:05:10 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: , , Subject: GBlist: showroom quotations Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:02:07 -0800 Message-ID: <01be584c$847e96c0$a1b5a3ce@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk "It's not that doing the environmentally responsible thing costs more. Doing the environmentlly irresponsible thing costs artificially less." ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 14 14:17:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA25306 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28427; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:10:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:06:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA27989 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:06:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.monumental.com (mail1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27983 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:06:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by mail1.monumental.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA15034 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:02:48 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36C62444.FE3B2F5C@cow-net.com> References: <000001be57af$6426a4a0$6381b7d1@jfstraube> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:07:42 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Hate to break that bubble--Re: GBlist: my cup of (old) tea Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk 990214 Have you ever closely examined the guts of some of the VERY old stuff? Asbestos (friable) and more, galore. Careful what you wish for...the good ole days weren't always... jh --------- > >I've owned a number of appliances in the last decade that I really wanted, >juicers, blenders, coffee makers, water kettles, electric shavers. I no >longer want any of these things in my life - I cannot stand looking and >dealing with their useless often hot wired carcasses. My son and I have > >I'm pissed because I grew up in the advent of the age of krups and braun - >sleek elegant things that I wanted to display. I once had a cuisinart >convection oven that was pure glass. Now I not only worry about how long ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 14 14:36:21 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA25394 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:36:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29263; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:29:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:25:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28943 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:25:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28939 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:25:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-2-92.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.2.92]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA18825; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:27:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36C724FE.96143B27@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:33:18 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" CC: Green building list Subject: Re: Hate to break that bubble--Re: GBlist: my cup of (old) tea References: <000001be57af$6426a4a0$6381b7d1@jfstraube> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I don't usually pull out quotes but I love this one. It's from a early eighties Ziggy comic. Drawing of large round faced character with a reminiscient look on his face. --"Ahh the good old days." "Things were so much more like they used to be back then." N "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" wrote: > > 990214 > > Have you ever closely examined the guts of some of the VERY old stuff? > Asbestos (friable) and more, galore. > > Careful what you wish for...the good ole days weren't always... > > jh > > --------- > > > > >I've owned a number of appliances in the last decade that I really wanted, > >juicers, blenders, coffee makers, water kettles, electric shavers. I no > >longer want any of these things in my life - I cannot stand looking and > >dealing with their useless often hot wired carcasses. My son and I have > > > >I'm pissed because I grew up in the advent of the age of krups and braun - > >sleek elegant things that I wanted to display. I once had a cuisinart > >convection oven that was pure glass. Now I not only worry about how long > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 14 15:14:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA25647 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:14:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01093; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:08:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:04:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA00758 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:03:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from kalessin.southern.co.nz (kalessin.southern.co.nz [202.37.188.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA00754 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 15:03:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (mail@localhost) by kalessin.southern.co.nz (8.8.5/8.6.6.Beta6) id JAA04170 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:05:24 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from ppp119.southern.co.nz(202.37.189.119) by kalessin.southern.co.nz via smap (V2.0) id xma004159; Mon, 15 Feb 99 09:05:07 +1300 X-Sender: bywateri@southern.co.nz Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:12:27 +1200 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: bywateri@convertech.co.nz (Ian Bywater) Subject: GBlist: Stirling Engines Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Alex Wilson and list members Look at www.whispertech.co.nz Just promoting Kiwi technology! Ian Bywater Christchurch ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 14 17:15:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA26652 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:15:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07059; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:08:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:04:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA06416 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:03:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from clavin.efn.org (root@clavin.efn.org [206.163.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06390 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:03:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from home.efn.org (dynip432.efn.org [206.163.181.176]) by clavin.efn.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA20811 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:05:09 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert Bolman" To: Subject: GBlist: slideshow tour Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:02:07 -0800 Message-ID: <01be5865$a9ed6080$a1b5a3ce@home.efn.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0072_01BE5822.9BCA2080" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01BE5822.9BCA2080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Hi Everybody,=20 =20 I'm going on another NW tour of my slideshow called "Natural Building = and Social Justice" =20 If you'd like to learn more about it, please visit my web site at = www.efn.org/~robtb/ =20 =20 Robert Bolman=92s Slideshow Tour Schedule Port Townsend, WA: Tuesday, February 23, Unitarian Universalist Church, = 2333 San Juan Ave, contact Chris Stafford 360-379-8541 Victoria, BC: Wednesday, February 24, 7:00, Victoria Compost Center, = 1216 North Park St Courtney, BC: Thursday, February 25, Bar None Caf=E9, 4th & Cliff = Streets, contact Elke 250-338-4660 Vancouver, BC: Friday, February 26, 3102 Main Street, 7:00 Vancouver, BC area: Saterday, February 27, Windsong Cohousing Community, = contact Ian Marcuse 604-253-6281 Vancouver, BC: Sunday, February 28, La Quenca Coffee House, 1111 = Commercial Drive, 7:00 Seattle, WA: Monday, March 1, Bellevue Community College 3:30 =96 5:00, = contact Kahlia Root 206-763-7735 Olympia, WA: Tuesday, March 2, 6:30, General Administration Building (on = the state capital campus) 8th & Washington Streets=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01BE5822.9BCA2080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 =20
Hi = Everybody, 
 
I'm going on another NW tour of my slideshow called=20 "Natural Building and Social Justice"
 
If you'd like to learn more about it, please visit = my web site=20 at www.efn.org/~robtb/ =20
 
Robert = Bolman’s Slideshow=20 Tour Schedule

Port Townsend, WA: Tuesday, February 23, Unitarian = Universalist=20 Church, 2333 San Juan Ave, contact Chris Stafford = 360-379-8541

Victoria, BC: Wednesday, February 24, 7:00, Victoria = Compost=20 Center, 1216 North Park St

Courtney, BC: Thursday, February 25, Bar None = Café,=20 4th & Cliff Streets, contact Elke 250-338-4660

Vancouver, BC: Friday, February 26, 3102 Main Street,=20 7:00

Vancouver, BC area: Saterday, February 27, Windsong = Cohousing=20 Community, contact Ian Marcuse 604-253-6281

Vancouver, BC: Sunday, February 28, La Quenca Coffee = House, 1111=20 Commercial Drive, 7:00

Seattle, WA: Monday, March 1, Bellevue Community = College 3:30=20 – 5:00, contact Kahlia Root 206-763-7735

Olympia, WA: Tuesday, March 2, 6:30, General = Administration=20 Building (on the state capital campus) 8th & Washington=20 Streets

------=_NextPart_000_0072_01BE5822.9BCA2080-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 14 18:49:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA27462 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:49:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA11226; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:43:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:38:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA10902 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:38:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10898 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:38:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 29668 invoked by alias); 14 Feb 1999 23:40:15 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 29654 invoked by uid 0); 14 Feb 1999 23:40:14 -0000 Received: from kdialup137.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.180.241.137) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 14 Feb 1999 23:40:14 -0000 Message-ID: <001b01be5873$0da12320$89f1b4d1@h5n5y7> From: "PETER F. ALSPACH" To: "Phil Bixby" , Subject: Re: GBlist: My cup of, er, petrol Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:37:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk It all depends on who you ask. :) My father thinks 20 mpg is good for his pick-up ( a 4 cyl.). I think that's horrid, but of course I get irritated when my Honda drops under 40 mpg. Pete ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 14 18:57:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA27504 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:57:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA11794; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:50:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:46:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA11393 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:46:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA11386 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:46:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-05-226.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.128.226]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA25539 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:48:14 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: From: "John Straube" To: Subject: GBlist: Heat loss due to IRMA roof Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:51:59 -0500 Message-ID: <000401be5875$030798c0$e280b7d1@jfstraube> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I stumbled on to German paper on heat losses due to rain fall running under the insulation layer in inverted roofs. I said earlier the loss due to this was in the order of 10% -- I was wrong, the loss can be higher. Given a two layer of XPS roof, with a total thickness of 4" and R20 nominal value (100 mm and U=.28W/(m^2 K)) , one can expect additional heat losses of 0.03 W/(m^2 K) for a cold climate (6000 to 8000 HDD in 65 F terms) with a fair bit of rain (40" per year). This is about 10%. However, the loss increases to more than 0.05 W/(m^2 K) if you use one layer of insulation. The amount lost stays the same even if you use less insulation -- eg one layer of 50 mm of XPS has U=0.57 and so a loss of 0.05 due to rain is back down to 10%. Based on the limited info available, losses increase in step with total heating period rainfall, and decrease as the intensity of rain increases. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------ John Straube Building Envelope Eng. Building Eng Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone 519 741 7920 Fax 519 885 5193 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 14 19:27:31 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA28104 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:27:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12989; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:20:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:16:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA12641 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:16:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from saturn.golden.net (saturn.golden.net [199.166.210.187]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12637 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:16:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-38-120.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.135.120]) by saturn.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA06910; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:17:55 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: From: "John Straube" To: "Phil Bixby" , Subject: RE: GBlist: My cup of, er, petrol Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:21:41 -0500 Message-ID: <000601be5879$28ec1440$e280b7d1@jfstraube> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <000a01be5849$e0c953a0$75102cc3@m002us00> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk The car I referred to now has 250 000 km on the clock and usually gets more than 50 mpg, eg, uses under 6 l per 100 km. And I ain't from the US just cause I dont fill the car with petrol :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------ John Straube Building Envelope Eng. Building Eng Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone 519 741 7920 Fax 519 885 5193 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org > [mailto:owner-greenbuilding@crest.org]On Behalf Of Phil Bixby > Sent: Sunday, February 14, 1999 1:43 PM > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: My cup of, er, petrol > > > Quote:- > > If I wanted a car that lasted only 7 > > years and 300 000 km I could have bought a car for 2 > > to 3000 less, but > > I am convinced this is less ecologically sound. My > > car also gets a > > lot better mileage than a that cheaper car too. > > Just out of interest, what kind of fuel consumption do you > fellas in the US > think of as being good these days? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 14 21:07:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA28784 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:07:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17580; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:00:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:56:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA17232 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:56:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA17228 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (1Cust61.tnt5.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.15.61]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA03058 for ; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:57:50 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36C77EBD.49BD@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 17:56:13 -0800 From: Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: My cup of, er, petrol References: <001b01be5873$0da12320$89f1b4d1@h5n5y7> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk PETER F. ALSPACH wrote: > > It all depends on who you ask. :) > > My father thinks 20 mpg is good for his pick-up ( a 4 cyl.). I think that's > horrid, but of course I get irritated when my Honda drops under 40 mpg. > My truck gets 14 - 16 mpg, and I think it is great! What's more, it's diesel. ...(just trying to see how many of my green colleagues on this list want to suspend me from further comments.) When looking for a new truck 12 years ago, I considered everything from little Toyota things to propane-converted gas engines. I settled on the big diesel because it gets about double the mileage of it's gasoline counterpart (it is a 6.9 liter engine) with greater horsepower, and it is fabled to last 300,000 miles. Even though diesel exhaust is high in particulates, it seemed to me that it would be better to have one vehicle endure using half the fuel rather than going through three gasoline (or propane) in the same span. I decided that given the demands of my work, this was the most environmentally-appropriate choice. seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 15 07:20:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA02841 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA04607; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:14:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:09:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA04284 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA04280 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:09:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-36.netcom.ca [207.181.90.100]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA28974; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:10:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990215062205.00a6c100@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:10:19 -0400 To: dmelchert@earthlink.net From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: My cup of, er, petrol Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <36C77EBD.49BD@earthlink.net> References: <001b01be5873$0da12320$89f1b4d1@h5n5y7> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 05:56 PM 14/02/99 -0800, Seth wrote: >(snip) My truck gets 14 - 16 mpg, and I think it is great! What's more, it's >diesel. (snip)...(it is a 6.9 liter engine)... > Several heater mason friends and I drive 3/4 ton pickup trucks w. a 5.9 litre Cummins turbocharged diesel engine. One guy in Michigan gets about 25 mpg (US) w. a manual transmission and 55 mph driving. Mine is an automatic, I drive a little faster, and get about 20 mpg(US). There's 225,000 km on the clock, should be good for at least 500,000. The extra $5,000 CDN for the diesel option was recovered after about 4 years in fuel savings. The extra power is a nice perk............Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 15 09:03:46 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA03553 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:03:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08161; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:57:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:52:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07718 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:52:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07711 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:52:24 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ723691; Mon, 15 Feb 99 06:53:51 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA98820; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 06:53:13 -0700 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 06:53:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: GSmolker@aol.com Cc: iaq@onelist.com, GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: fluoresent lighting manu. to use/avoid In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Gary: Thank you for your interesting Valentines's message. Do you or anyone have recommendations on lighting manufacturers to use or avoid on a major project, using health, environmental responsibility (record) and efficiency as the 3 major criteria? So far Philips would seem as one manufacturer to use. Jorg Ostrowski _________________________________________________________________________ On Sun, 14 Feb 1999 GSmolker@aol.com wrote: > > Jeanne > > In California we have an environmental law which requires manufacturers to > give warning if their products expose people to chemicals on a list of toxic > chemicals compiled by the state. > > A lawsuit has been filed under this law by a "nonprofit" group against light > bulb manufacturers for not warning consumers that light bulbs manufactured by > defendants have mercury in them and exposure to mercury vapor can cause > cancer. > > The name of the "public interest" party who is prosecuting this lawsuit has a > name like The Working Committee to Prevent Immune System Destruction. I don't > remember the exact name. > > I have a copy of their lawsuit complaint in my office. If you call me at > work, I'll give you the name and case number of the lawsuit and the name and > phone number of the lead attorney. These kinds of legal suits are big > business for environmental attorneys because a civil fine is assessed against > the wrongdoers if the case comes out in favor of the party bringing the suit. > > Under California law, under certain circumstances a private party can bring a > suit on behalf of the public against anyone who violates this law. If the > private party wins, his/her/its attorney is awarded "reasonable" attorney fees > by the court and the party who brought the successful suit is allowed to share > in the recovery of the civil penalty assessed against the defendant(s). > > Cordially, > > Gary S. Smolker > > Phone: (310) 574-9880 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription > to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and > select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Interesting Link for the week: > Environews by Topic: Table of Contents > http://ehis.niehs.nih.gov/topic/ > Environews by Topic categorizes all Environews articles published in Environmental Health Perspectives since 1993 under more than 45 different environmental health topics, including chemical exposures, environmental medicine, legislation and policy issues, indoor pollution, environmental justice, and urban issues. > URL to articles on "Indoor Pollution" > http://ehis.niehs.nih.gov/topic/indoorpol.html > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 15 09:42:14 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04094 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:42:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10359; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:31:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09683 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:30:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from garnet.sover.net (garnet.sover.net [209.198.87.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09672 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:30:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.87] (pm3a29.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.253]) by garnet.sover.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27289 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:32:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:32:25 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) [207.136.199.87] from pm3a29.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.253] 207.136.199.253 Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:32:25 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <000601be5879$28ec1440$e280b7d1@jfstraube> References: <000a01be5849$e0c953a0$75102cc3@m002us00> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: From: Alex Wilson Subject: RE: GBlist: My cup of, er, petrol Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I drive a 96 Volkwagon Passat turbo-diesel station wagon that gets 40 mpg around town and about 50 mpg on the highway (total range 700-plus miles on the highway). VW's new direct-injection diesel (TDI) engine meets California's strict(er) air pollution standards. It's also a lot quieter than the old VW diesels and has far more power. This fuel economy is not bad for a car of this size and weight, though the industry could do far better if it chose to (or if there were more buyers wanting high fuel economy). Currently, the TDI engine is being redesigned to fit into the redesigned Passats and Jettas so is not available with early 1999 models, but I understand the TDI has now become available on the VW Golf. BTW, a good friend has burned a 50:50 mix of diesel and used cooking oil (from a college food service) in his older VW diesel rabbits for about ten years very successfully. We drove our last VW diesel rabbit 13 years and well over 200,000 miles and hope to do the same with the Passat. -Alex Wilson At 7:21 PM -0500 2/14/99, John Straube wrote: >The car I referred to now has 250 000 km on the clock and usually gets >more than 50 mpg, eg, uses under 6 l per 100 km. >And I ain't from the US just cause I dont fill the car with petrol :) >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -----Original Message----- >> Just out of interest, what kind of fuel consumption do you >> fellas in the US >> think of as being good these days? Environmental Building News 122 Birge Street, Suite 30 Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 15 09:42:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04104 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:42:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10430; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:36:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:31:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09796 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:31:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09765 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:31:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA04629; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:33:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-211.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.211), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd004578; Mon Feb 15 07:32:56 1999 Message-ID: <36C83093.3E8F1C8B@primenet.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:34:59 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Norbert Senf CC: dmelchert@earthlink.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: My cup of, er, petrol References: <001b01be5873$0da12320$89f1b4d1@h5n5y7> <4.1.19990215062205.00a6c100@mha-net.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I drive a 3/4 ton Dodge with a Cummins & stick shift. I get 27 mpg on the hiway and about 22 mpg around town. I know several people that have more than 350,000 mile on theirs without a problem. Regards, John Wilson Nogal, NM Norbert Senf wrote: > At 05:56 PM 14/02/99 -0800, Seth wrote: > > >(snip) My truck gets 14 - 16 mpg, and I think it is great! What's more, it's > >diesel. (snip)...(it is a 6.9 liter engine)... > > > Several heater mason friends and I drive 3/4 ton pickup trucks w. a 5.9 > litre Cummins turbocharged diesel engine. One guy in Michigan gets about 25 > mpg (US) w. a manual transmission and 55 mph driving. Mine is an automatic, > I drive a little faster, and get about 20 mpg(US). There's 225,000 km on > the clock, should be good for at least 500,000. The extra $5,000 CDN for > the diesel option was recovered after about 4 years in fuel savings. The > extra power is a nice perk............Norbert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 15 09:47:46 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04184 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:47:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10832; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:41:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:37:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10488 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:36:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09918 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:32:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA04888; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:34:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-211.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.211), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd004765; Mon Feb 15 07:33:53 1999 Message-ID: <36C830C3.35E6303F@primenet.com> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 07:35:47 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Norbert Senf CC: dmelchert@earthlink.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: My cup of, er, petrol References: <001b01be5873$0da12320$89f1b4d1@h5n5y7> <4.1.19990215062205.00a6c100@mha-net.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I drive a 3/4 ton Dodge with a Cummins Diesel & stick shift. I get 27 mpg on the hiway and about 22 mpg around town. I know several people that have more than 350,000 mile on theirs without a problem. Regards, John Wilson Nogal, NM Norbert Senf wrote: > At 05:56 PM 14/02/99 -0800, Seth wrote: > > >(snip) My truck gets 14 - 16 mpg, and I think it is great! What's more, it's > >diesel. (snip)...(it is a 6.9 liter engine)... > > > Several heater mason friends and I drive 3/4 ton pickup trucks w. a 5.9 > litre Cummins turbocharged diesel engine. One guy in Michigan gets about 25 > mpg (US) w. a manual transmission and 55 mph driving. Mine is an automatic, > I drive a little faster, and get about 20 mpg(US). There's 225,000 km on > the clock, should be good for at least 500,000. The extra $5,000 CDN for > the diesel option was recovered after about 4 years in fuel savings. The > extra power is a nice perk............Norbert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 15 12:18:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA06714 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:18:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19627; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:11:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:05:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19141 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:05:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.privat.kkf.net (privat.kkf.net [212.63.32.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19135 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:05:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from alex (mi-dial1.privat.kkf.net [212.63.37.1]) by mail.privat.kkf.net (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id SAA14641 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:07:12 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199902151707.SAA14641@mail.privat.kkf.net> From: "alexander neumann" To: Subject: Re: GBlist: My cup of, er, petrol Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:00:28 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > > I drive a 3/4 ton Dodge with a Cummins Diesel & stick shift. I get 27 mpg on the > hiway and about 22 mpg around town. Sad thing that the new beetle is not significantly better than that... The mileage exposed on the DallasAutoMotorShow was something like 23/29. A friend of mine was driving an old Ford truck until last spring with a milage of about 7. When he sells it, someone else is probably driving it for another couple of years. Yours, Alex ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 15 13:01:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA07488 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:01:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22234; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:55:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:51:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21639 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:50:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from multi13.netcomi.com (dkdalton@multi13.netcomi.com [204.58.155.213]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21623 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:50:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dkdalton@localhost) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id LAA04318; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:51:51 -0600 Received: from onelist.com (www.onelist.com [209.207.164.157]) by multi13.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id LAA04312 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:51:50 -0600 Received: (qmail 19235 invoked by uid 99); 15 Feb 1999 17:52:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 4519 invoked from network); 15 Feb 1999 13:51:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca) (136.159.244.11) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 15 Feb 1999 13:51:42 -0000 received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ723691; Mon, 15 Feb 99 06:53:51 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA98820; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 06:53:13 -0700 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 06:53:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Old-To: GSmolker@aol.com Cc: iaq@onelist.com, GreenBuilding Listserver In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact iaq-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: GBlist: [iaq] fluoresent lighting manu. to use/avoid X-Loop: dkdalton@aztecenvironmental.com To: aztecfw@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Gary: Thank you for your interesting Valentines's message. Do you or anyone have recommendations on lighting manufacturers to use or avoid on a major project, using health, environmental responsibility (record) and efficiency as the 3 major criteria? So far Philips would seem as one manufacturer to use. Jorg Ostrowski _________________________________________________________________________ GSmolker@aol.com wrote: > > In California we have an environmental law which requires manufacturers to > give warning if their products expose people to chemicals on a list of toxic > chemicals compiled by the state. > > A lawsuit has been filed under this law by a "nonprofit" group against light > bulb manufacturers for not warning consumers that light bulbs manufactured by > defendants have mercury in them and exposure to mercury vapor can cause > cancer. > > The name of the "public interest" party who is prosecuting this lawsuit has a > name like The Working Committee to Prevent Immune System Destruction. I don't > remember the exact name. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the week: Environews by Topic: Table of Contents http://ehis.niehs.nih.gov/topic/ Environews by Topic categorizes all Environews articles published in Environmental Health Perspectives since 1993 under more than 45 different environmental health topics, including chemical exposures, environmental medicine, legislation and policy issues, indoor pollution, environmental justice, and urban issues. URL to articles on "Indoor Pollution" http://ehis.niehs.nih.gov/topic/indoorpol.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 15 13:01:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA07487 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:01:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA22232; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:55:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:50:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21629 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:50:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from multi4.netcomi.com (rjbynum@multi4.netcomi.com [204.58.155.204]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21625 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:50:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from rjbynum@localhost) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) id LAA04600; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 11:52:14 -0600 Received: from onelist.com (www.onelist.com [209.207.164.157]) by multi4.netcomi.com (8.8.5/8.7.4) with SMTP id RAA04594 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:52:11 GMT Received: (qmail 19235 invoked by uid 99); 15 Feb 1999 17:52:48 -0000 Received: (qmail 4519 invoked from network); 15 Feb 1999 13:51:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca) (136.159.244.11) by pop.onelist.com with SMTP; 15 Feb 1999 13:51:42 -0000 received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ723691; Mon, 15 Feb 99 06:53:51 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA98820; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 06:53:13 -0700 Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 06:53:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca Old-To: GSmolker@aol.com Cc: iaq@onelist.com, GreenBuilding Listserver In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mailing-List: list iaq@onelist.com; contact iaq-owner@onelist.com Delivered-To: mailing list iaq@onelist.com List-Unsubscribe: Reply-to: iaq@onelist.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: GBlist: [iaq] fluoresent lighting manu. to use/avoid X-Loop: rbynum@usenergycontrols.com To: rjbynum@ix.netcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Gary: Thank you for your interesting Valentines's message. Do you or anyone have recommendations on lighting manufacturers to use or avoid on a major project, using health, environmental responsibility (record) and efficiency as the 3 major criteria? So far Philips would seem as one manufacturer to use. Jorg Ostrowski _________________________________________________________________________ GSmolker@aol.com wrote: > > In California we have an environmental law which requires manufacturers to > give warning if their products expose people to chemicals on a list of toxic > chemicals compiled by the state. > > A lawsuit has been filed under this law by a "nonprofit" group against light > bulb manufacturers for not warning consumers that light bulbs manufactured by > defendants have mercury in them and exposure to mercury vapor can cause > cancer. > > The name of the "public interest" party who is prosecuting this lawsuit has a > name like The Working Committee to Prevent Immune System Destruction. I don't > remember the exact name. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at http://www.onelist.com and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting Link for the week: Environews by Topic: Table of Contents http://ehis.niehs.nih.gov/topic/ Environews by Topic categorizes all Environews articles published in Environmental Health Perspectives since 1993 under more than 45 different environmental health topics, including chemical exposures, environmental medicine, legislation and policy issues, indoor pollution, environmental justice, and urban issues. URL to articles on "Indoor Pollution" http://ehis.niehs.nih.gov/topic/indoorpol.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 15 16:28:07 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA11761 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:28:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA05342; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:21:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:16:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA04851 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:16:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from aris.coqui.net (aris.coqui.net [206.99.218.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA04847 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:16:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from frankie (sanjuan-208-156-16-98.coqui.net [208.156.16.98]) by aris.coqui.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA20383 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:03:16 -0400 (AST) Message-ID: <36C89D34.539E@coqui.net> Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:18:28 -0500 From: Rafael Pagan Organization: PRIMEX X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: (no subject) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Do you know of any "reinforced plastic wood" available in the market. If so, what is being used for the reinforcement. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 15 17:08:21 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA12606 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:08:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07599; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:01:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:57:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07182 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:57:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07177 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:57:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <15BS2ML9>; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:54:18 -0500 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF44A45C@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Cc: "'Sam Droege'" Subject: GBlist: Reusing Wet Cell Batteries Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:56:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hello Listers, Does anyone know anything about the reuse and/or recycling options for wet cell batteries? Our client is going to remove 2 large Uninterruptable Power Supply (UPS) systems in the near future and will need to "relocate" (dispose of) the batteries. Each system has 120 large 2.25 volt batteries. One system is about 13 years old and the other is definitely newer, possibly less than 5 years. Both sets of batteries are made by Exide, are type ES 11-B and bear the catalog #690603. I am told that the batteries are technically good for 20 years. Thanks in advance, Drew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Drew George, Green Building Champion Bovis Construction Corp 7475 Wisconsin Avenue, 10th Floor Bethesda MD 20814 USA Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 http://www.bovis.com Drew.George@Bovis.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 15 19:18:14 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA14765 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:18:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA14095; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:10:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:06:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA13672 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:06:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13667 for ; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:06:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from Alisa (usr0a9.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.9]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA26383; Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:08:07 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) Alisa from usr0a9.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.9] 209.198.95.9 Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:08:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990215190815.00c37be4@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:08:15 -0500 To: Green building list From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: Hate to break that bubble--Re: GBlist: my cup of (old) tea Cc: Green building list In-Reply-To: <36C724FE.96143B27@atlasinc.on.ca> References: <000001be57af$6426a4a0$6381b7d1@jfstraube> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Back in the good old days Braun and Krups made machinery and gas for extermination camps-go figure Danny Sagan Randolph Ctr VT >> >I've owned a number of appliances in the last decade that I really wanted, >> >juicers, blenders, coffee makers, water kettles, electric shavers. I no >> >longer want any of these things in my life - I cannot stand looking and >> >dealing with their useless often hot wired carcasses. My son and I have >> > >> >I'm pissed because I grew up in the advent of the age of krups and braun - >> >sleek elegant things that I wanted to display. I once had a cuisinart >> >convection oven that was pure glass. Now I not only worry about how long >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ >> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >> Environmental Building News and Oikos >> For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >-- >Neil Spiegel >V: 416-534-9792 >F: 416-534-7888 >E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca >"Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 10:30:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25162 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:30:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23578; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:23:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:17:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22115 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22080 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:17:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.38]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 6043300 ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 07:20:12 -0800 Message-ID: <36C98C20.60F23180@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 07:17:53 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" CC: Green building list Subject: Re: Hate to break that bubble--Re: GBlist: my cup of (old) tea - now pcb's References: <000001be57af$6426a4a0$6381b7d1@jfstraube> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi Jim I had hoped to not be taken that literally on old stuff - was trying more to make a point about 'things lasting'. I'm a bit of a hypocrite here as I have also ranted a lot about the problems of recycling of building materials for concerns about what they may contain. Here is a good case in point. PCB's used as a plasticizer in many sealants (-1972) leach heavily into surrounding materials eg. into concrete facade panels - a project to remove pcb's from buildings in europe ran into problems when the new joints absorbed pcb's from surrounding materials. What does one do with seemingly innocuous materials? As to appliances it seems there is very little middle ground between an initially heavy point of outgassing and further breakdown of material from continuous heat generated by motors and wiring. john. Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA wrote: > 990214 > > Have you ever closely examined the guts of some of the VERY old stuff? > Asbestos (friable) and more, galore. > > Careful what you wish for...the good ole days weren't always... > > jh > > --------- > > > > >I've owned a number of appliances in the last decade that I really wanted, > >juicers, blenders, coffee makers, water kettles, electric shavers. I no > >longer want any of these things in my life - I cannot stand looking and > >dealing with their useless often hot wired carcasses. My son and I have > > > >I'm pissed because I grew up in the advent of the age of krups and braun - > >sleek elegant things that I wanted to display. I once had a cuisinart > >convection oven that was pure glass. Now I not only worry about how long > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 11:17:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26170 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27932; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:10:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:06:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27539 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:06:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27535 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA15032 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:07:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from vna-va13-37.ix.netcom.com(207.223.178.165) by dfw-ix13.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma014947; Tue Feb 16 10:07:27 1999 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990216111442.008bac00@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:14:42 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: bitter coffee anyone? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk My coffee tastes bitter this morning... ~;<( Perhaps more should be done to "out" companies; witness stink about DuetcheBank... ----- > >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:08:15 -0500 >From: Danny Sagan >Subject: GBlist: my cup of (old) tea > >Back in the good old days Braun and Krups made machinery and gas for >extermination camps-go figure >Danny Sagan Randolph Ctr VT || =(O) = Environmental Building Consulting Services || Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 11:50:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26827 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:50:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA00234; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:43:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:39:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29710 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:38:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix2.interkan.net (root@unix2.interkan.net [12.13.79.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29704 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:38:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from interkan.net (pm3-mhk91.interkan.net [12.13.79.121]) by unix2.interkan.net (8.9.1/8.8.8/jpw@interkan.net) with ESMTP id IAA17213; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:46:30 -0600 Message-ID: <36C97415.3B58BC1D@interkan.net> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 07:35:17 -0600 From: Tamara & Bill Dorsett Reply-To: dorsett@interkan.net Organization: Health Options X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "George, Drew" CC: "'GreenBuilding List'" , "'Sam Droege'" Subject: Re: GBlist: Reusing Wet Cell Batteries References: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF44A45C@WASNT1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Drew Several years ago the military dismantled its cold war telephone power back-up system as obsolete. I visited one of these sites to appraise the possible use a very similar battery bank in several PV systems. It was huge bunker with thick blast doors and $$$millions of never used switching equipment that was waiting for a salvager. The battery bank was beautifully done, with thick copper strap interconnects, huge glass cased 2 V batteries. They were willing to sell it for scrap lead prices - nickle/lb. I don't remember the type number but these seem very familiar. I called Exide before committing and found that these were designed for long (20year) shelf life during which they would be float charged continuously. However in the event of attack they were expected to last only as long as it would take to launch all the missiles and turn out the lights ...16 days. They had very shallow sumps, and no ability to deep cycle. You might call Exide and talk to an engineer before hiring a semi to haul these home. Bill Dorsett Manhattan, KS George, Drew wrote: > Hello Listers, > > Does anyone know anything about the reuse and/or recycling options for wet > cell batteries? Our client is going to remove 2 large Uninterruptable Power > Supply (UPS) systems in the near future and will need to "relocate" (dispose > of) the batteries. > > Each system has 120 large 2.25 volt batteries. One system is about 13 years > old and the other is definitely newer, possibly less than 5 years. Both sets > of batteries are made by Exide, are type ES 11-B and bear the catalog > #690603. I am told that the batteries are technically good for 20 years. > > Thanks in advance, > Drew > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Drew George, Green Building Champion > Bovis Construction Corp > 7475 Wisconsin Avenue, 10th Floor > Bethesda MD 20814 USA > Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 > http://www.bovis.com > Drew.George@Bovis.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 12:03:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27028 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:03:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01408; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:56:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:52:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00967 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:52:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (root@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00963 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:52:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27467; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:35:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-049.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.49), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd027358; Tue Feb 16 09:35:20 1999 Message-ID: <36C99C38.B926CB30@primenet.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:26:32 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Bion D. Howard" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: bitter coffee anyone? References: <3.0.5.32.19990216111442.008bac00@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear Bion, Our Country placed Japenese Americans in camps and our forefather's abused the American Natives etc. etc. Drink your coffee and don't hold the current world inhabitants to blame for the sins of the past! Regards, John Wilson "Bion D. Howard" wrote: > My coffee tastes bitter this morning... ~;<( > Perhaps more should be done to "out" companies; witness stink about > DuetcheBank... > > ----- > > > >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:08:15 -0500 > >From: Danny Sagan > >Subject: GBlist: my cup of (old) tea > > > >Back in the good old days Braun and Krups made machinery and gas for > >extermination camps-go figure > >Danny Sagan Randolph Ctr VT > > || > =(O) = Environmental Building Consulting Services > || Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal > Building Environmental Science & Technology > P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 12:54:17 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA28001 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:54:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04870; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:47:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:41:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA04387 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:41:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA04380 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:41:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from europa.dreamscape.com (europa.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.147]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA15249 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:43:16 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: europa.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.147] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:43:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA14-p43.dreamscape.com [209.217.195.43]) by europa.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA09258 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:43:14 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sA14-p43.dreamscape.com [209.217.195.43] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:43:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36C9AD72.457A057F@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:40:02 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: [Fwd: GBlist: bitter coffee anyone?] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Chuck Hinckley wrote: > > John Wilson wrote: > > > > Dear Bion, > > > > Our Country placed Japenese Americans in camps and our forefather's abused > > the American Natives etc. etc. Drink your coffee and don't hold the > > current world inhabitants to blame for the sins of the past! > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > We still abuse these same ethnic groups, recent studies indicate that > Native American are victimized by crime at a higher rate per cap. than > any other group. This figure is even more distressing in view of the > fact that these crimes are more often perpetrated by non native > americans, as opposed to black on black crime for instance. Being > victimized by members of your own ethnic group is not exactly preferable > just somehow less racially motivated presumably. I can't attribute the > source for this info off hand, but it was from a news bite in aponline > last week. > > Skin heads and neo-nazis recently rallied in eastern Europe (Hungary?), > New York City cops blow African men away with frightening nonchalance. > In the south blacken get dragged around the backwoods tied to the bumper > of some white supremacists rolling drunk tank. On the frozen high plains > you can be beaten and left to die, for daring to come out and look for > friendship. > > We are truly fucking evolved, aren't we? Sometimes makes you wonder what > the hell we're saving the planet for. Don't you dare suggest that those > are the sins of our fathers, in the past and best forgotten. That kind > of blind eye mentality is precisely why these things aren't dead and > gone, assigned to the waste bin of history where they belong. > > Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 13:07:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA28230 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:07:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05991; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:56:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA05491 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:56:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA05487 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:56:22 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id SVEBa26290; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:55:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:55:46 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: nontoxic@silcon.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: GBList: NY State Architect? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Architect wanted in NY State: I have been informed that a man in Monsey, NY (west of Westchester County, near the NJ border) is looking for an architect experienced in green building practices who can work in that area. I know nothing more about the extent or nature of his interests, whether in indoor air quality, energy and resource conservation, or larger issues of sustainability. If you are such an architect or know one, the person (intermediary) to contact for further information is Daliya Robson of the Nontoxic Hotline in California. Daliya can be reached (off list, please) by email at: nontoxic@silcon.com her website is: Nontoxic Hotline Thanks, David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone: 510-841-1039 fax: 510-841-1008 iaqkibbey@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 13:20:06 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA28438 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:20:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07012; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:13:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:09:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06586 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06579 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:08:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from myrtle.rtpnc.epa.gov by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26439) with ESMTP id <0F79000FCC6EBN@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:22:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26438) with SMTP id <0F7900E0OBXWVQ@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:13:37 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:06:28 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: How much tea (petrol) does it take. . .? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk The debate about durability of a vehicle and it's mileage has come up with friends before. Do you keep an old gas burner instead of buying a new gas miser, because a new vehicle has associated embedded energy and environmental costs? In the US, the average car drinks more than its weight in gasoline every year! (figure for yourself: avg. mileage c. 22 mpg, 12,000 miles, 7-8 pounds per gallon). Although there are certainly significant differences in the embedded energy and environmental costs of various materials, weight is one possible proxy one could use as a starting point. So if you can save the entire weight of your vehicle in just one year (i.e. by getting 20 more mpg) in gasoline, does it start to make sense to do so? Steve O. ============= Contact Information: Steve Offutt - ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html ============= ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 13:32:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA29077 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:32:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07933; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:25:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:21:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA07478 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:21:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.privat.kkf.net (privat.kkf.net [212.63.32.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07474 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:21:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from alex (mi-dial3.privat.kkf.net [212.63.37.3]) by mail.privat.kkf.net (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id TAA16385 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:23:14 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199902161823.TAA16385@mail.privat.kkf.net> From: "alexander neumann" To: "greenbuilding" Subject: Re: GBlist: bitter coffee anyone? Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:16:30 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk It´s just a question of time when General Motors is sued for reparations by the former inhabitants of its concentration camp factory in cologne. Just when the US entered the War, they reduced their amount of stock in that to one quarter... US industry and trade was more involved than you thought ! (Guess who stocked up US troops for the tropical war in the pacific! ) Oh, and Deutsche Bank is exactly 38% german... And why is Canada the only country where escaped Nazis could successfully dare to keep their real names? It´s not only our business anymore, so please stop blaming solely germans for all the manure going down on this planet. ---------- > Von: Bion D. Howard > An: greenbuilding > Betreff: GBlist: bitter coffee anyone? > Datum: Dienstag, 16. Februar 1999 17:14 > > > My coffee tastes bitter this morning... ~;<( > Perhaps more should be done to "out" companies; witness stink about > DuetcheBank... > > ----- > > > >Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:08:15 -0500 > >From: Danny Sagan > >Subject: GBlist: my cup of (old) tea > > > >Back in the good old days Braun and Krups made machinery and gas for > >extermination camps-go figure > >Danny Sagan Randolph Ctr VT > > || > =(O) = Environmental Building Consulting Services > || Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal > Building Environmental Science & Technology > P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 14:04:22 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00265 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:04:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10259; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:57:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:51:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA09609 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:51:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (daemon@smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09601 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:51:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07187; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:53:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip-17-034.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.34), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd007085; Tue Feb 16 11:52:51 1999 Message-ID: <36C9BF03.11CFB640@primenet.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:55:00 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: [Fwd: GBlist: bitter coffee anyone?] References: <36C9AD72.457A057F@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Gee Chuck - I was only trying to help Bion enjoy his coffee this morning. Sorry I jumped in there - I'm going to go stick my head in the oven now... Have a nice day, John snipped: Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Chuck Hinckley wrote: > > > ... > > We still abuse these same ethnic groups, recent studies indicate that > > Native American are victimized by crime at a higher rate per cap. than > > any other group. This figure is even more distressing in view of the > > fact that these crimes are more often perpetrated by non native > > americans, as opposed to black on black crime for instance. Being > > victimized by members of your own ethnic group is not exactly preferable > > just somehow less racially motivated presumably. I can't attribute the > > source for this info off hand, but it was from a news bite in aponline > > last week. > > > > Skin heads and neo-nazis recently rallied in eastern Europe (Hungary?), > > New York City cops blow African men away with frightening nonchalance. > > In the south blacken get dragged around the backwoods tied to the bumper > > of some white supremacists rolling drunk tank. On the frozen high plains > > you can be beaten and left to die, for daring to come out and look for > > friendship.etc.... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 15:05:05 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01829 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:05:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15474; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:58:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:53:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14922 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:53:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14911 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:53:07 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ287445; Tue, 16 Feb 99 12:53:57 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA85350; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:53:48 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:53:48 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: STEPHEN OFFUTT Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: How much tea (petrol) does it take. . .? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Stephen: Although our 475,000 km Honda Wagon (with NO major repairs so far) has seen a payback of a few years, and still gets >47 MPG, we try to only use it once a week, thus saving on GHG emissions/pollution. The rest of the time we walk to our personal and business engagements, whenever possible. Jorg Ostrowski __________________________________________________________________________ On Tue, 16 Feb 1999, STEPHEN OFFUTT wrote: > > The debate about durability of a vehicle and it's mileage has come up with friends > before. Do you keep an old gas burner instead of buying a new gas miser, because a > new vehicle has associated embedded energy and environmental costs? > > In the US, the average car drinks more than its weight in gasoline every year! (figure for > yourself: avg. mileage c. 22 mpg, 12,000 miles, 7-8 pounds per gallon). Although there > are certainly significant differences in the embedded energy and environmental costs of > various materials, weight is one possible proxy one could use as a starting point. So if > you can save the entire weight of your vehicle in just one year (i.e. by getting 20 more > mpg) in gasoline, does it start to make sense to do so? > > Steve O. > ============= > Contact Information: > Steve Offutt - ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA > 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) > offutt.stephen@epa.gov > ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES > www.epa.gov/energystar.html > ============= > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 15:09:47 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01944 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:09:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16030; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:02:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:58:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15534 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:58:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15503 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:58:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id D3LTWL84; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:59:57 EST To: DBunnII@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:53:36 -0500 Subject: GBlist: Re: Health House Program Message-ID: <19990216.145955.3494.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-23,27-34 From: "Beverly A. Weiter" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 14 Feb 1999 01:31:29 EST DBunnII@aol.com writes: >I am interested in hearing about the experiences of any homeowner or >builder >who has done an American Lung Association Health House project. I am >planning >on bulding my first spec built healthy house in Fort Collins, Colorado >and >felt that I should explore the Health House Advantage Certification >program >offered by the American Lung Association. Thank you for your >response. > >Don Bunn II >Sustainable Homescapes >PO Box 830 >Fort Collins, CO 80522 >(970) 484-1711 >dbunnii@aol.com >___________________________________________________________________ > > Hi, Don, Several of the American Lung Assn Health Houses were under the direction of my friend, Bernadette Upton. Though based in Florida, I think she did one or two out of state as well. I don't know her e-mail but her phone is 561-845-5433, in N. Palm Beach. Her fax is 561-845-5588. Good luck. Mention my name. Beverly A. Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 15:18:28 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA02178 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:18:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16812; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:11:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:06:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA16261 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:06:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA16245 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:06:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from europa.dreamscape.com (europa.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.147]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA15264 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:08:28 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: europa.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.147] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:08:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA15-p46.dreamscape.com [209.217.195.109]) by europa.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA26529 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:08:26 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sA15-p46.dreamscape.com [209.217.195.109] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:08:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36C9CF7D.24EF85D8@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:05:17 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: [Fwd: GBlist: bitter coffee anyone?] References: <36C9AD72.457A057F@dreamscape.com> <36C9BF03.11CFB640@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk John, If I was too harsh and excessive in my zeal then I apologize, but I think it is just beyond comprehension how we remove ourselves from those "distant past" atrocities. We allow ourselves to be deluded into believing that we are in no way involved in or touched by the ongoing legacy of these "historic events". Aw, skip it, this is obviously not the venue for this discussion. Sorry for any offense given and please have a NICE DAY yourself! Chuck John Wilson wrote: > > Gee Chuck - I was only trying to help Bion enjoy his coffee this morning. Sorry I > jumped in there - I'm going to go stick my head in the oven now... > > Have a nice day, > John > > snipped: > Chuck Hinckley wrote: > > > Chuck Hinckley wrote: > > > > > ... > > > We still abuse these same ethnic groups, recent studies indicate that > > > Native American are victimized by crime at a higher rate per cap. than > > > any other group. This figure is even more distressing in view of the > > > fact that these crimes are more often perpetrated by non native > > > americans, as opposed to black on black crime for instance. Being > > > victimized by members of your own ethnic group is not exactly preferable > > > just somehow less racially motivated presumably. I can't attribute the > > > source for this info off hand, but it was from a news bite in aponline > > > last week. > > > > > > Skin heads and neo-nazis recently rallied in eastern Europe (Hungary?), > > > New York City cops blow African men away with frightening nonchalance. > > > In the south blacken get dragged around the backwoods tied to the bumper > > > of some white supremacists rolling drunk tank. On the frozen high plains > > > you can be beaten and left to die, for daring to come out and look for > > > friendship.etc.... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 17:27:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA05076 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:27:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25175; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:20:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:16:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24556 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:16:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from am-dew.nevada.edu (am-dew.nevada.edu [131.216.1.249]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24539; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from nevada.edu (s2-ppp13.nevada.edu [131.216.253.129]) by am-dew.nevada.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01708; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:17:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36C9EED7.6F0F7F2@nevada.edu> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:19:12 -0800 From: Allie Smith Reply-To: smitha2@nevada.edu Organization: Citizen Alert X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Straw Bale Wall Raising Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id RAB24553 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Straw bale wall raising opportunity in Las Vegas!! Please join us on February 27 (Saturday) and 28 (Sunday) for a weekend wall raising event at Stephanie Parks’ house in northwest Las Vegas, Nevada. It is a beautiful 3 bedroom, 2 bath home: the first in southern Nevada to use straw bales on the second floor. There will be a good mix of experts and novices--this is a great chance to learn and/or teach the wonderful craft of building with bales. We’ll start working at 8AM and end around 5PM on both days. Lunch and drinks will be provided. Don’t forget work gloves and sunscreen. Long sleeves and pants are recommended. Please leave pets and children at home. Please contact Allie Smith at Citizen Alert by phone at 702-796-5662 or email to RSVP and get directions. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 17:54:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA05824 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:54:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA26883; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:46:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:42:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA26342 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:42:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA26327 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:42:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-2-144.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.2.144]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA12993 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:43:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36C9F600.DF21F3E2@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:49:36 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding-List Subject: GBlist: Where to get Wood/Plastic decking Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi All, Wondering if anyone knows of an Ontario (preferably Toronto) area supplier of that wood/recyceld plastic 2x6 decking stuff that keeps showing up all over the place. And secondly. Any opinions on it as a product. Doing a small deck and wanted to try it. Thanks, Neil -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 18:14:41 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA06250 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:14:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA28187; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:07:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:03:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27755 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:03:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27746 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:03:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from myrtle.rtpnc.epa.gov by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26439) with ESMTP id <0F7900044R9XBO@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:46:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26438) with SMTP id <0F790007RRAM8U@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:47:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:46:51 -0500 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:39:50 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: How much tea (petrol) does it take. . .? Error correction To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I wrote: ". . . So if you can save the entire weight of your vehicle in just one year (i.e. by getting 20 more mpg) in gasoline, does it start to make sense to do so?" That is incorrect math. I'm glad I caught it before all of you! Going from 22 to 42 mpg on a 12,000-mile, 2800-pound car takes longer than a year (about a year & a half). The calculation is more dynamic than my example. The lower your mileage is to start, the quicker you can save the weight of the car by improving the mileage. No argument with Jorg about reducing vehicle use, of course. My family of three puts about 6000 miles per year on our one car. It would take 50 years for us to accrue 475,000 km, Jorg!! Steve O. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 20:11:34 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA09104 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:11:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05471; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:04:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:00:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05068 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:59:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05064 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:59:50 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ126092; Tue, 16 Feb 99 18:01:01 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA19218; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:00:01 -0700 Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:00:01 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Neil Spiegel Cc: Greenbuilding-List Subject: Re: GBlist: Where to get Wood/Plastic decking In-Reply-To: <36C9F600.DF21F3E2@atlasinc.on.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Neil: There are several supplier in Canada. Call the Ontario Recycling Council. Plastic lumber will wear out your skill saw baldes faster than you can image and at an ambient outdoor temperature of 30dC, outgassing may be a grave concern.Its very heavy and due to its coefficient of linear expansion/contraction, it may stray by itself when stacked. Be careful near piles of the material. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 21:17:42 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA10846 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:17:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08707; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:10:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:06:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08308 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:06:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from garnet.sover.net (garnet.sover.net [209.198.87.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08304 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:06:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from Alisa (usr0a38.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.38]) by garnet.sover.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA05524; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:08:03 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) Alisa from usr0a38.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.38] 209.198.95.38 Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:08:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990216210811.00d47fc8@sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@sover.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:08:11 -0500 To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca, Greenbuilding-List From: Danny Sagan Subject: Re: GBlist: Where to get Wood/Plastic decking In-Reply-To: <36C9F600.DF21F3E2@atlasinc.on.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I have used Trex. It comes 5/4 x 6- It is available through a local lumber yard. It is great to walk on provided it's not too hot. It is slower to install because you have to pre-drill. It dulls saw-blades faster You don't have to treat it and it does not have any CCA in it. I have a problem with the fact that the cutoffs can't be sent back to the factory I don't mind the way it looks although it takes some people by surprise Don't use it for trim- it deflects too much Good Luck Danny Sagan Randolph Ctr VT At 05:49 PM 2/16/99 -0500, Neil Spiegel wrote: > >Hi All, > >Wondering if anyone knows of an Ontario (preferably Toronto) area supplier of that >wood/recyceld plastic 2x6 decking stuff that keeps showing up all over the place. > >And secondly. Any opinions on it as a product. > >Doing a small deck and wanted to try it. > >Thanks, > >Neil > >-- >Neil Spiegel >V: 416-534-9792 >F: 416-534-7888 >E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca >"Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 16 21:26:05 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA10932 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:26:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA09426; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:19:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:15:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA08911 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:15:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.monumental.com (mail1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA08907 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:15:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by mail1.monumental.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29280 for ; Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:11:28 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199902161823.TAA16385@mail.privat.kkf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:15:12 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: GBlist: LIST my coffee tastes fine Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id VAA08908 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk 990216 >...It´s not only our business anymore, so please stop blaming solely germans >for all the manure going down on this planet.>-Neumann I hate to sound like a schoolmarm of yore, but I have a better idea. Let's stop confusing this list with alt.country.mad-about-something-one-or-another-didinthepast. How about some good old fashioned greenbuilding talk, anyone? jh Oh, and if you read the history books, you will be reminded how a focus on reparations after WWI helped guarrantee a return engagement. Forgive me for that one last shot. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 17 08:43:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA18574 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:43:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03054; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:37:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:32:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA02743 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:32:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from garnet.sover.net (garnet.sover.net [209.198.87.53]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA02738 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:32:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.254] (pm3a30.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.254]) by garnet.sover.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11034; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:34:08 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on garnet.sover.net) [207.136.199.254] from pm3a30.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.254] 207.136.199.254 Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:34:08 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: nmalin@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36C9F600.DF21F3E2@atlasinc.on.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:34:45 -0500 To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Where to get Wood/Plastic decking Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi Neil, I believe that Trex has a list of suppliers online: www.trex.com There is also a competing product called ChoiceDek, made by AERT and distributed by Weyerhaueser. It can be ordered by any lumber yard that get stuff through Weyerhaueser's network. I've used both on little projects. Both are made using similar technologies (I believe that the back-and-forth lawsuits over rights to the technology are over now), from recycled HDPE and waste wood. ChoiceDek has a nice cedar aroma, because the wood fibers are from a cedar pressing operation. ChoiceDek has a coarser-textured surface, and a corrugated bottom, which I believe gives it a better strength-to-weight ratio. Both products are pretty expensive compared with standard CCA-treated wood, but they should last much longer and require no maintenance. > >Do you know of any "reinforced plastic wood" available in the market. >If so, what is being used for the reinforcement. And in response to the other question, about reinforced plastic lumber, the only product I'm aware of is Trimax, made with fiberglass reinforcement: Trimax of Long Island: Telephone: 516-471-7777 Fax: 516-471-7862 Nadav >Hi All, > >Wondering if anyone knows of an Ontario (preferably Toronto) area supplier >of that wood/recyceld plastic 2x6 decking stuff that keeps showing up all >over the place. > >And secondly. Any opinions on it as a product. > >Doing a small deck and wanted to try it. > >Thanks, > >Neil > >-- Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 17 09:57:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA19679 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:57:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06786; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:51:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:46:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06357 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:46:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA06352 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:46:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:47:57 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C6D66E8@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: my cup of tea Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:47:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Jorg, What do you drive? > From: Jorg D. Ostrowski [mailto:jdo@ucalgary.ca] > BTW, I expect my vehicle to > last 500,000 km > without major repair. I'm at 475,000 km now. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 17 10:08:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA19872 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:08:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07597; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:01:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:57:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA07120 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:57:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA07116 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-18.netmeg.net [208.139.83.81]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA29791; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:58:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36CAD940.5787AE06@swinter.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:59:12 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nadav Malin CC: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Where to get Wood/Plastic decking References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone know if plastic lumber encourages or sustains mildew/moss growth and if so does this happen when installed horizontally only or vertically too? debra lombard Nadav Malin wrote: > Hi Neil, > > I believe that Trex has a list of suppliers online: www.trex.com > > There is also a competing product called ChoiceDek, made by AERT and > distributed by Weyerhaueser. It can be ordered by any lumber yard that get > stuff through Weyerhaueser's network. > > I've used both on little projects. Both are made using similar technologies > (I believe that the back-and-forth lawsuits over rights to the technology > are over now), from recycled HDPE and waste wood. ChoiceDek has a nice > cedar aroma, because the wood fibers are from a cedar pressing operation. > ChoiceDek has a coarser-textured surface, and a corrugated bottom, which I > believe gives it a better strength-to-weight ratio. > > Both products are pretty expensive compared with standard CCA-treated wood, > but they should last much longer and require no maintenance. > > > > >Do you know of any "reinforced plastic wood" available in the market. > >If so, what is being used for the reinforcement. > > And in response to the other question, about reinforced plastic lumber, the > only product I'm aware of is Trimax, made with fiberglass reinforcement: > Trimax of Long Island: Telephone: 516-471-7777 Fax: 516-471-7862 > > Nadav > > >Hi All, > > > >Wondering if anyone knows of an Ontario (preferably Toronto) area supplier > >of that wood/recyceld plastic 2x6 decking stuff that keeps showing up all > >over the place. > > > >And secondly. Any opinions on it as a product. > > > >Doing a small deck and wanted to try it. > > > >Thanks, > > > >Neil > > > >-- > > Environmental Building News > the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction > 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) > http://www.ebuild.com > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 17 10:26:04 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20211 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:26:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA08940; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:19:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:14:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08486 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:14:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08482 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:14:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id D3NV23HS; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:15:49 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:14:43 -0500 Subject: GBlist: plastic lumber Message-ID: <19990217.101543.3646.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,4-9 From: "Beverly A. Weiter" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Neil?, For the person looking for a Canadian source of plastic lumber, try Canadian Plastic Lumber, in Lindsay, Ont. 705-878-5700. Possible contact - Tony Verbik. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 17 10:43:41 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20936 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:43:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10168; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:31:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA09782 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:31:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA09776 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:31:29 -0500 (EST) received: from acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.206) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ312579; Wed, 17 Feb 99 08:31:29 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA187836; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:31:14 -0700 Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:31:14 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca To: "Rogers, Mike" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: durability central to sustainability In-Reply-To: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C6D66E8@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Mike et al: Further to the attached request, my vehicle is a Honda Wagon that has NOT had a major repair yet. It still gets >47 MPG. Range is about 635 km (city) to 845 km (country). Its interior space is very flexible for sleeping 2 adults to carrying jumping jacks (tampers). Payback about 4 years. We try to use it once a week for all combined erands. The rest of the time we walk to private and business obligations. We hope to accomplish 500,000 km. As mentioned earlier "durability" is a very critical element of sustainability. If a vehicle or home is built to offset the manufacture and purchase of perhaps 2 or 3 other new replacements, its environmental cost savings are very substantial. In fact, our own home was constructed with slightly upgraded standards rather than typical "hit-and-run" specifications, in the hope to last 2-3 times longer than the standard 70-year life cycle of plastic houses in our area. That way one could afford to increase initial capital cost or amortize payments over a much longer period. Nothing new to European houses that last 200-500 years. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Rogers, Mike wrote: > Jorg, > > What do you drive? > > > From: Jorg D. Ostrowski [mailto:jdo@ucalgary.ca] > > BTW, I expect my vehicle to > > last 500,000 km > > without major repair. I'm at 475,000 km now. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 17 11:25:57 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA21825 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:25:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12736; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:19:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:14:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12246 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:14:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12239 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:14:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id KAA0000001601; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:16:06 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990217161908.00738680@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:19:08 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: tea pot tempest and change of subject Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Now that the tempest for the tea pot caused by John S.'s mild suggestion that old stuff might be better, has subsided, I would like to highly recommend a book every potential house building client, every architect and builder ought to read. It is lovely to look at and chock full of good practical architectural suggestions along the C. Alexander's Pattern philosophy of viewing a dwelling. It is on EBN's recently released annual compendium of books, magazines etc too I note. Called THE NOT SO BIG HOUSE , it is written by Susan Suskanka. with Kira Obolensky Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 17 11:55:47 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA22434 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:55:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15084; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:48:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:44:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14588 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:44:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14583 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:44:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:45:28 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C6D66F5@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: The Not So Big House Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:45:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I heartily second the recommendation. (And so does EBN judging from their recent review [Jan 1999].) It's not just a picture book, although, there are some nice pictures. There are a few internal inconsistencies, and I believe she could have very easily strengthened the energy-efficiency chapter while keeping it in the context and style of the rest of the book, but on the whole it is full of good ideas, and makes a good case. And in terms of energy-efficiency, building a (smaller) house the right size will in most reasonable cases inherently be more energy efficient than building some of the monstrosities that are popping up all over. This may be helpful in educating clients that they should spend their money on quality (good design, construction, and finish, as well as energy-efficiency) rather than on square footage. > From: David F. Lambertson [mailto:dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu] > I would like to highly > recommend a book every potential house building client, every > architect and > builder ought to read. It is lovely to look at and chock full of good > practical architectural suggestions along the C. Alexander's Pattern > philosophy of viewing a dwelling. It is on EBN's recently > released annual > compendium of books, magazines etc too I note. Called THE > NOT SO BIG HOUSE > , it is written by Susan Suskanka. with Kira Obolensky ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 17 12:43:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA24518 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:43:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19494; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:36:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:31:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18959 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:31:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18953 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:31:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from sover.net (arc3a21.bf.sover.net [209.198.81.85]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA12530; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:32:09 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) sover.net from arc3a21.bf.sover.net [209.198.81.85] 209.198.81.85 Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:32:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36CB287E.45DA8103@sover.net> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:37:18 -0800 From: Andrea Warchaizer Reply-To: springpt@sover.net Organization: Springpoint Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-DIAL (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rogers, Mike" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: The Not So Big House References: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C6D66F5@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Katherine Cartrette, an architect with Mulfinger, Susanka, Mahady, and Partners will be leading a one-day design workshop focusing on design principles from Sarah Susanka's book "The Not So Big House". The workshop is Thursday, April 8 at Delta Whistler Resort in Whistler, BC and immediately preceeds the spring Western Conference of the Timber Framers Guild of North America. The workshop is open to all participants and will not be geared exclusively to timber frame design. For more information on the workshop and the conference, see the TFG web site www.tfguild.org My apologies if this blatant plug is not of use. Andrea Warchaizer (Interim) President, TFGNA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 17 13:08:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA24965 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:08:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21581; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:01:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:57:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21077 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:57:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from labs.tamu.edu (labs.tamu.edu [128.194.103.89]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21059 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:57:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (modem-1706.rns.tamu.edu) by labs.tamu.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <1.0011A519@labs.tamu.edu>; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:59:25 -0600 Message-ID: <36CB0379.7897@labs.tamu.edu> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:59:42 -0600 From: marvit Reply-To: rsm444d@labs.tamu.edu Organization: Texas A&M University X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Green building list Subject: GBlist: Gas Hog 8mi/gal References: <000001be57af$6426a4a0$6381b7d1@jfstraube> <36C98C20.60F23180@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk i have a moral dilemma. i inherited a 1966 Dodge Charger ( kind was in movie; Vanishing Point) anyway it got 8mi to the gal. ( 383 engine) if i remember. was going to hold onto it and sell it to pay for my education. but can't see how i can do that, if i am going into something environmental, and am selling something that is going against that. Anyone got any ideas.. what they would do ??????? Warm regards, J.frost ___________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 17 17:37:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA01210 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:37:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA09765; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:30:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:25:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA09288 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:25:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA09284 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:25:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from environdc.com (Dialin1014.cstone.net [204.71.8.14]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-54117U7500L750S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:22:05 -0500 Message-ID: <36CB3FB9.A3AB0FBA@environdc.com> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:16:25 -0500 From: tfisher@environdc.com (Ths. Fisher) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Jubudi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I have a request by a contractor to use a South American (Brazilian) hardwood called Jubudi. He claims it is a reclaimed waste from the extensive slash and burn agriculture practiced there. The price is great. It is used as a exterior decking material. But I'm not sure about it as a 'green' or sustainable material Anyone with any knowledge or experience with this species? Thanks. Tom -- Thomas A. Fisher, AIA Environ Design Collaborative http://www.environdc.com (804) 977-1910 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 17 17:49:31 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA01372 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:49:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA10778; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:42:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:38:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA10277 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:37:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA10269 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:37:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 6117 invoked by alias); 17 Feb 1999 22:39:36 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 5978 invoked by uid 0); 17 Feb 1999 22:39:31 -0000 Received: from kdialup93.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.180.241.93) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 17 Feb 1999 22:39:31 -0000 Message-ID: <005401be5ac6$102c0f60$5df1b4d1@h5n5y7> From: "PETER F. ALSPACH" To: , "Green building list" Subject: Re: GBlist: Gas Hog 8mi/gal Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:37:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk You could sell it to someone who you know will restore it. Restored cars rarely get driven. Pete Alspach ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 17 19:42:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA04741 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:42:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA17489; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:35:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:31:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA17051 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:30:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo22.mx.aol.com (imo22.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA17039 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:30:42 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo22.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 2MDTa01428 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:30:15 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:30:15 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Where to get Wood/Plastic decking Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I don't know about plastic lumber in general, however I can speak about the composite lumber (part plastic/part sawdust) deck we've had for more than 5 years. I don't know if 'attract' is the right word but the decking does tend to get light mildewy/green mold in places. This requires washing, hosing once or twice a year but is the only maintenance the decking requires. There are a number of trees that overhang that area so I'm presuming untreated wood would have some similar problems. Overall, very happy with its performance. Phil Bailey/SustainAbility Fredericksburg, VA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 17 20:03:14 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA05014 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:03:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA18795; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:56:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:52:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA18451 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:52:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (DCxIJvJ90CYvVVgODM8Qn7PpFjWETxLo@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18447 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:52:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (Snk8kuf6PTDCpF94LflNvGXXwFru/Adv@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA27261; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:54:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA22293; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:53:58 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36CB6490.2075899F@gs.net> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:53:37 -0600 From: Steve Pailet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rogers, Mike" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: my cup of tea References: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C6D66E8@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I do not drive very much myself... but I sold my last Mercedes diesel which I had just broken in the engine at only 685,000 miles... "Rogers, Mike" wrote: > Jorg, > > What do you drive? > > > From: Jorg D. Ostrowski [mailto:jdo@ucalgary.ca] > > BTW, I expect my vehicle to > > last 500,000 km > > without major repair. I'm at 475,000 km now. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 17 21:16:00 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06143 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:16:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA23651; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:09:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:04:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA22931 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:04:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22921 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:04:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-10-141.cyberzone.net [209.150.10.141]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:45:29 -0500 Message-ID: <36CBA0AB.1270@cyberzone.net> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:10:03 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Harazim Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsm444d@labs.tamu.edu CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Gas Hog 8mi/gal References: <000001be57af$6426a4a0$6381b7d1@jfstraube> <36C98C20.60F23180@cow-net.com> <36CB0379.7897@labs.tamu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > > i have a moral dilemma. > i inherited a 1966 Dodge Charger ( kind was in movie; Vanishing > Point) anyway it got 8mi to the gal. ( 383 engine) if i remember. > > was going to hold onto it and sell it to pay for my education. > but can't see how i can do that, if i am going into something > environmental, and am selling something that is going against that. > > Anyone got any ideas.. what they would do ??????? > > Warm regards, J.frost You could chop it up and recycle all the pieces. Or you can drive the car, enjoy the hell out of it, then sell it to a collector and use the proceeds to get a "green" education. Go plant trees, make your next vehicle an electric, make a compost pile, balance it out. Don't get into a PC moral dilemma over your education and one car - use the angst somewhere else, where it will do more good! How fast does it go, anwyway :-> Regards, Dan Harazim Canterbury, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 17 22:17:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA07013 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:17:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01741; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:10:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:06:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA01288 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:06:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from spike.palmer.com (nAyvFVgQ2bcKVLTn48dzrSqp3dJMbV1k@spike.palmer.com [198.3.156.44]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA01284 for ; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from wymple.gs.net (1qffXQlXKeLFXmbACjU3Ep9HYusKxZRe@wymple.gs.net [198.3.156.65] (may be forged)) by spike.palmer.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA04878; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:08:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from gs.net (ledbalon.gs.net [204.252.208.99]) by wymple.gs.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA27583; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:08:17 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36CB8420.CB619B08@gs.net> Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:08:16 -0600 From: Steve Pailet X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rsm444d@labs.tamu.edu CC: Green building list Subject: Re: GBlist: Gas Hog 8mi/gal References: <000001be57af$6426a4a0$6381b7d1@jfstraube> <36C98C20.60F23180@cow-net.com> <36CB0379.7897@labs.tamu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk There is the scrape yard... but fifty $ does not go very far for school... I would hold on to it and sell it when you have the chance.. Eventually it will end up taking up space in someone else's garage. they will likely only run it for 100 miles a year or one tank of gas a year anyway. :) Good luck marvit wrote: > i have a moral dilemma. > i inherited a 1966 Dodge Charger ( kind was in movie; Vanishing > Point) anyway it got 8mi to the gal. ( 383 engine) if i remember. > > was going to hold onto it and sell it to pay for my education. > but can't see how i can do that, if i am going into something > environmental, and am selling something that is going against that. > > Anyone got any ideas.. what they would do ??????? > > Warm regards, J.frost > ___________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 18 10:04:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15046 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:04:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA01697; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:57:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:53:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA01275 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:52:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA01268 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:52:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.254] (pm1a20.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.116]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27115 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:54:39 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) [207.136.199.254] from pm1a20.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.116] 207.136.199.116 Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:54:39 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: nmalin@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36CB8420.CB619B08@gs.net> References: <000001be57af$6426a4a0$6381b7d1@jfstraube> <36C98C20.60F23180@cow-net.com> <36CB0379.7897@labs.tamu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:54:26 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: Getting back on topic Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This is a plea to list participants to reign the discussion topic back into the green buildings field. If anyone else feels inclined to offer suggestions to Mr. Frost, please do so without burdening the rest of us with more unwanted e-mail. Thanks, Nadav >There is the scrape yard... but fifty $ does not go very far for school... >I would hold on to it and sell it when you have the chance.. Eventually it >will end up taking up space in someone else's garage. they will likely >only run it for 100 miles a year or one tank of gas a year anyway. :) >Good luck > >marvit wrote: > >> i have a moral dilemma. >> i inherited a 1966 Dodge Charger ( kind was in movie; Vanishing >> Point) anyway it got 8mi to the gal. ( 383 engine) if i remember. >> >> was going to hold onto it and sell it to pay for my education. >> but can't see how i can do that, if i am going into something >> environmental, and am selling something that is going against that. >> >> Anyone got any ideas.. what they would do ??????? >> >> Warm regards, J.frost Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 18 11:03:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17479 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:03:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06273; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:51:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05599 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:51:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from panther.wcs.org (panther.wcs.org [207.198.132.15]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05591 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:51:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from wcs.org ([207.198.134.84]) by panther.wcs.org (Netscape Messaging Server 3.52) with ESMTP id AAA39EF; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:50:17 -0500 Message-ID: <36CC36BB.59A4F797@wcs.org> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:50:19 -0500 From: "Jon Dohlin" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nadav@ebuild.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Getting back on topic References: <000001be57af$6426a4a0$6381b7d1@jfstraube> <36C98C20.60F23180@cow-net.com> <36CB0379.7897@labs.tamu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk nadav et al: you can simply delete the email you find so far afield. i really find it hard to understand the "purity" argument; and the useless impatience with other's issues. what DOES constitute "appropriate" green-building discussion? energy consumption? embodied energy costs? the trade-offs between these two? seems like the gas-guzzler/check out MY mileage thread addresses those in a way that is at least tangentially consequential. relax. jon dohlin ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 18 11:05:28 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17538 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:05:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06508; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:58:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:54:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05809 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:53:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from nov.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05800 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:53:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.36.199.65] (209-36-199-65.diac.com [209.36.199.65]) by nov.diac.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA04138 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:55:35 GMT Message-Id: <199902181555.PAA04138@nov.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Re: gas hogs etc Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 08:58:29 -0700 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This is a remarkable discussion ... when I was a kid, all the guys hung around on the street corners bragging about how big their car engines were. Now, the guys are hanging around the internet bragging about how small their car engines are. Times sure have changed! (Or have they?) Buzz Burrell Boulder, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 18 11:07:04 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17572 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:07:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06722; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:00:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:55:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06052 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:55:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06039 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:55:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id D3RJRGDA; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:56:03 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:55:23 -0500 Subject: GBlist: gas hog Message-ID: <19990218.105610.9142.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,3,9-13 From: "Beverly A. Weiter" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi, J. Frost, One thought re the inherited car - save it and see if you can find someone who is into the environment and a mechanic. Perhaps they could design a way to adapt old gas guzzlers to make them more environmentally friendly. That way, those who collect older cars could adapt their cars, show them in parades etc, and still do less damage to the ozone. Perhaps you could present this as a challenge to some school like MIT or the like and get a tax credit for donating the car. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 18 16:18:53 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA25524 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:18:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29370; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:06:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA28816 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:06:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA28809 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:06:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip12.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.31]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA80 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:10:49 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990218161624.007a0170@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:16:24 -0500 To: Green building list From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Gas Hog 8mi/gal In-Reply-To: <36CB0379.7897@labs.tamu.edu> References: <000001be57af$6426a4a0$6381b7d1@jfstraube> <36C98C20.60F23180@cow-net.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Sell it. If the car has any collector value, it won't be driven very much. Whether restored or customized, these kinds of vehicles aren't placed into daily service. If it's rust-free, you shouldn't have any trouble finding a serious buyer. There are a number of websites setup by carclubs and societies that provide information to help you set a price. This isn't just another 30-year old car... it really does have historic merit. ... Harry At 11:59 AM 2/17/99 -0600, marvit wrote: >i have a moral dilemma. > i inherited a 1966 Dodge Charger ( kind was in movie; Vanishing >Point) anyway it got 8mi to the gal. ( 383 engine) if i remember. > >was going to hold onto it and sell it to pay for my education. > but can't see how i can do that, if i am going into something >environmental, and am selling something that is going against that. > >Anyone got any ideas.. what they would do ??????? > >Warm regards, J.frost >___________________________________________________________________ >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 18 16:24:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA25650 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:24:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA29926; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:17:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:13:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA29483 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:13:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from stevie.loop.com (stevie-inet.loop.com [207.211.60.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA29479 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:13:13 -0500 (EST) From: bg4gls@loop.com Received: from 207.211.62.184 (p06.hwts12.loop.net [207.211.62.141]) by stevie.loop.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA27366 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:16:22 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36CC7F1B.40B1@loop.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:59:21 -0800 Reply-To: bg4gls@loop.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Neil Spiegel request re plastic decking References: <199902170700.CAA19082@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Neil, The best product I've seen out here in California is actually made by a Canadian company, Composite Technology Resources. The product is called Nexwood. You can reach the rep at nexwood@cam.org or via phone at 888/763-9966. Be careful; all plastic lumber is not created equal. In fact, most of it is junk.Let the group know how your deck turns out. Bob Galbreath Geo-Lite Systems - makers of self-contained, relocateable structures ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 18 17:23:07 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA28479 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:23:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03818; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:15:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:11:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA03328 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:11:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA03318 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:11:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:12:40 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C6D6759@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Home Owners Manual Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:12:32 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I have searched the archives in vain... I recall some discussion of this topic last year (?), perhaps around the time of John Abram's article in the March '98 Fine Homebuilding (a great article I might add). Can anyone point me in the direction of previous discussion OR let me know about any type of home owner manuals that might exist. Thanks Mike Rogers ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 18 20:18:52 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA01139 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:18:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA14198; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:12:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:07:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA13713 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:07:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA13709 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:07:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from 1Cust21.tnt11.nyc3.da.uu.net (1Cust21.tnt11.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.134.21]) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA21585 for ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:09:30 -0800 (PST) From: wliebold@earthlink.net (Warren Liebold) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: SaveWater '99 Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:06:34 GMT Reply-To: wliebold@earthlink.net Message-ID: <36cdb8ee.1062158@mail.earthlink.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id UAA13710 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk The northeast's triennial water efficiency gathering, SaveWater '99, will be held on Thursday, March 11 at the Westchester Country Club in Harrison, New York. The conference is organized by the Water-Wise Council of New York. Concurrent tracks of "indoor" and "outdoor" efficiency sessions will be held. The "indoor efficiency" talks include: "Performance Contracting Advantages and Challenges" "Coming Clean with High Efficiency Washing Machines" "Tips and Tools for Indoor Water Efficiency" "Water Conservation Concepts and Practices" The "outdoor" talks include: "Importance of Managing Water Reuse for Landscaping and Irrigation" "Reclaimed Water Use: Pepsi Somers Campus" "Health Issues: Wastewater Reuse" "Xeriscape Concepts" "Water Management Technologies for Golf Irrigation Systems" There will also be a "Consumer's Corner" with the staff of Consumers Union talking about their testing of water- and energy-efficient products. Conference registration is only $45 in advance or $55 after February 26 (cheap!). Exhibit space is available starting at $500 (cheap!). To register in advance, send your name/address/phone/fax and a check payable to "Water-Wise Council of New York" to: Water-Wise Council of New York c/o Ed Santalone Atlantic Irrigation Specialties 620 Commerce Street Thornwood, NY 10594 For information on exhibit space call Gray Russell (718-817-8024) or Sal Celona (914-637-3017) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 19 01:33:15 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA06041 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:33:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA28265; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:26:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:22:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA27988 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:22:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from arl-img-8.compuserve.com (arl-img-8.compuserve.com [149.174.217.138]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA27984 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:22:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by arl-img-8.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.18) id BAA08882 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:23:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:23:18 -0500 From: Scott Shell Subject: GBlist: Vinyl Wallcovering Alternative? To: GBlist Message-ID: <199902190123_MC2-6B04-56DF@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id BAA27985 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I'm working on a middle school and as usual will cover all the classroom walls with tackboard, either homosote or fiberboard. The schools love this since they cover the walls with artwork or educational projects. Normally we would cover the fiberboard with vinyl wall covering because it is durable, washable, stain resistant, hides pin holes somewhat, and is inexpensive. I'm working to use less PVC, but haven't come up with a suitable alternate to the vinyl wallcovering. I'm concerned that just painting the fiberboard wouldn't be as durable. Any recommendations? Thanks! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 19 02:02:41 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA06222 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 02:02:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA00138; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:55:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:51:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA29872 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:51:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (ipad.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA29867 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:51:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.201]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4389700 ; Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:56:22 -0800 Message-ID: <36CD0A28.274856F1@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:52:25 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Scott Shell CC: GBlist Subject: Re: GBlist: Vinyl Wallcovering Alternative? References: <199902190123_MC2-6B04-56DF@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I would suggest cork as a basic durable material with good properties including sound dampening. It is available in rolls typically used as an underlayment or in thicker panel or tile and I think it would prove durable in any form. Light absorption might be a problem. When looking at wall coverings I imagine there are a number of fabric alternatives but would probably not be surpised if vinyl was used in some form in their manufacture. john Scott Shell wrote: > I'm working on a middle school and as usual will cover all the classroom > walls with tackboard, either homosote or fiberboard. The schools love this > since they cover the walls with artwork or educational projects. > > Normally we would cover the fiberboard with vinyl wall covering because > it is durable, washable, stain resistant, hides pin holes somewhat, and is > inexpensive. > > I'm working to use less PVC, but haven't come up with a suitable alternate > to the vinyl wallcovering. I'm concerned that just painting the fiberboard > wouldn't be as durable. Any recommendations? Thanks! > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 19 09:59:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA11457 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:59:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16131; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:52:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:48:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15619 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:47:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15609 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:47:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D3TZB6P4; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:49:25 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: mheat@mha-net.org Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 07:44:40 -0700 Subject: GBlist: EMF Message-ID: <19990219.074446.3494.0.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <01BE11AC.0D185C60.jfstraube@golden.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 12-16 From: Samantha L McDonald Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk there is a local struggle i figured you all might have some contacts, suggestions, or references for- radio towers on Lookout Mountain are introducing extremely high EMF levels to the residents- and there is a big push to bring another very large one into the area. What this community is looking for is another that has "been there" to be a model for the litigation- and especially any "evidence" that EMF's are dangerous- (especially at 15 times the surrounding levels) so far the state wont listen and is apparently getting a much lesser reading at the same site (hmmm...- not to mention they wont meet to jointly read a meter...) they are attemping to push the dangers off onto the computers in the work force as well... any and all well respected leads and studies will help- they also plan on bringing in a lot of publicity on this one. thanks for your support! Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 19 10:03:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11553 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:03:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16479; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:56:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:52:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA16046 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:51:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA16032 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:51:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-23.netmeg.net [208.139.83.86]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA02547; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:53:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36CD7B11.7BF95696@swinter.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 09:54:09 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen CC: Scott Shell , GBlist Subject: Re: GBlist: Vinyl Wallcovering Alternative? References: <199902190123_MC2-6B04-56DF@compuserve.com> <36CD0A28.274856F1@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk >From debra dodd's book: Pallas textiles 414-468-2600 sells "earth paper" w/ a water based finish. Pattern people 603-432-7180 sells clay coated papers w/ water based paints. It is my understanding that the Homasote board can come w/ a jute fabric applied to the board and I believe it is with a waterbased adhesive. debra lombard John Salmen wrote: > I would suggest cork as a basic durable material with good properties including > sound dampening. It is available in rolls typically used as an underlayment or > in thicker panel or tile and I think it would prove durable in any form. Light > absorption might be a problem. When looking at wall coverings I imagine there > are a number of fabric alternatives but would probably not be surpised if vinyl > was used in some form in their manufacture. > > john > > Scott Shell wrote: > > > I'm working on a middle school and as usual will cover all the classroom > > walls with tackboard, either homosote or fiberboard. The schools love this > > since they cover the walls with artwork or educational projects. > > > > Normally we would cover the fiberboard with vinyl wall covering because > > it is durable, washable, stain resistant, hides pin holes somewhat, and is > > inexpensive. > > > > I'm working to use less PVC, but haven't come up with a suitable alternate > > to the vinyl wallcovering. I'm concerned that just painting the fiberboard > > wouldn't be as durable. Any recommendations? Thanks! > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 19 10:38:00 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA12198 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:37:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18473; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:31:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:26:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18034 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:26:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18026 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:26:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from tempest.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@tempest.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.93]) by donkeykong.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id KAA01465; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:28:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (reppe@localhost) by tempest.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with ESMTP id KAA15252; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:28:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:28:13 -0500 (EST) From: Peter Reppe X-Sender: reppe@tempest.rs.itd.umich.edu To: Debra Lombard cc: John Salmen , Scott Shell , GBlist Subject: Re: GBlist: Vinyl Wallcovering Alternative? In-Reply-To: <36CD7B11.7BF95696@swinter.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear Debra-- Could you please check Pallas' number for me again? Tried to call them, but it didn't work. Thanks a lot. Peter On Fri, 19 Feb 1999, Debra Lombard wrote: > >From debra dodd's book: > > Pallas textiles 414-468-2600 sells "earth paper" w/ a water based finish. > Pattern people 603-432-7180 sells clay coated papers w/ water based paints. > It is my understanding that the Homasote board can come w/ a jute fabric applied to > the board and I believe it is with a waterbased adhesive. > debra lombard > > John Salmen wrote: > > > I would suggest cork as a basic durable material with good properties including > > sound dampening. It is available in rolls typically used as an underlayment or > > in thicker panel or tile and I think it would prove durable in any form. Light > > absorption might be a problem. When looking at wall coverings I imagine there > > are a number of fabric alternatives but would probably not be surpised if vinyl > > was used in some form in their manufacture. > > > > john > > > > Scott Shell wrote: > > > > > I'm working on a middle school and as usual will cover all the classroom > > > walls with tackboard, either homosote or fiberboard. The schools love this > > > since they cover the walls with artwork or educational projects. > > > > > > Normally we would cover the fiberboard with vinyl wall covering because > > > it is durable, washable, stain resistant, hides pin holes somewhat, and is > > > inexpensive. > > > > > > I'm working to use less PVC, but haven't come up with a suitable alternate > > > to the vinyl wallcovering. I'm concerned that just painting the fiberboard > > > wouldn't be as durable. Any recommendations? Thanks! > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 19 11:08:34 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13440 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:08:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20603; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:01:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:56:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20117 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:56:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA20108 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:56:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-60-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.60]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA22637; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:58:00 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990219105637.007dee80@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:56:37 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re: Trex dex Cc: wmap@wmap-aia.com In-Reply-To: <199902170700.CAA19082@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk re Wood/Plastic decking I walked on a (think it ws Trex) plastic-wood deck a couple of years old and the butt joints were all swollen, like you would see at the cut edges of OSB or particle board that got wet. Anyone seen this with plastic wood decking? Concerns? Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc Montpelier VT 05602 > >I have used Trex. It comes 5/4 x 6- It is available through a local lumber >yard. >It is great to walk on provided it's not too hot. >It is slower to install because you have to pre-drill. >It dulls saw-blades faster > You don't have to treat it and it does not have any CCA in it. >I have a problem with the fact that the cutoffs can't be sent back to the >factory >I don't mind the way it looks although it takes some people by surprise >Don't use it for trim- it deflects too much >Good Luck > >Danny Sagan >Randolph Ctr VT > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 19 14:46:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA19799 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:46:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA06017; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:39:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:33:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05424 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:33:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ritchie.loop.com (ritchie-inet.loop.com [207.211.60.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA05415; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:33:01 -0500 (EST) From: bg4gls@loop.com Received: from 207.211.62.195 (p00.hwts14.loop.net [207.211.62.195]) by ritchie.loop.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA25979; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:30:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36CDBCE9.15CD@loop.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:35:12 -0800 Reply-To: bg4gls@loop.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pvusers@crest.org CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: "quoting" previous messages References: <199902190700.CAA00445@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear Fellow List Users; A little housekeeping request: If possible, It would be nice if list members could turn off the "always quote" box in their mail software. The quotes of messages that quote previous messages get a little tough to navigate through when looking for the genuine new messages. I'm a Mac person using an older version of Netscape and I found the "always quote" check-box in Options>Mail & News Prefs>Composition. Your mail composition window should have another button that allows you to selectively quote when necessary. Bob Galbreath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 19 16:03:07 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA21759 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:03:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10850; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:56:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:51:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10273 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:51:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from iac20.navix.net (iac20.navix.net [207.91.5.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10252 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 15:51:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from 205.242.158.198 (cras37p50.navix.net [205.242.158.198]) by iac20.navix.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA13441; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:52:02 -0600 Message-ID: <36CD93EA.6A92@navix.net> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:40:14 -0600 From: Joyce Coppinger X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-Navix (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Natural Bldg Workshop in Lincoln NE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk A workshop on natural building will be held on Saturday, March 13, 1999, 9:00 AM to 4:00 PM at Southeast Community College, Lincoln Campus, 8800 O Street, Lincoln Nebraska. Sessions on environmental siting and design, building with salvage and indigenous materials, and straw bale construction are scheduled. An opportunity to learn more about alternative materials and methods for construction. Advance registration and fees will be handled through SCC, the sponsor of this event in cooperation with Re:Build Associates of Lincoln. For more information contact: Joyce Coppinger, 800-910-3019 or jc10508@navix.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 19 17:51:26 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24229 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:51:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18210; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:44:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:39:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA17679 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:39:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA17675 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:39:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-23.netmeg.net [208.139.83.86]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA13752 for ; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:41:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36CDE8A4.14078DC7@swinter.com> Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:41:40 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: fiber optics with solar collected light Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hello! I am researching information regarding any US, European or Asian application of fiber optics with solar collected light for use in building lighting. If you know of any European contacts it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your assistance. Sincerely, Debra Lombard deblombard@swinter.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 20 10:55:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03234 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:55:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23449; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:48:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:43:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA23164 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:43:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA23160 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:43:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.62] (newhenyusr0-a62.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.62]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA25356; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:44:00 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:44:00 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Greenbuilding discussion list From: CN Subject: GBlist: EMF Cc: Samantha L McDonald Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Samantha, It's going to be a tough struggle from what I have seen. There is actually a federal law which states that health concerns can not be a basis for rejecting cell-phone towers. (So some local groups are fighting them on aesthetic grounds) That law was recently put on the books after lobbying from who else but the cell-phone industry which is sprouting their towers everywhere these days. However, I'm not sure it would apply to non-cell-phone towers. You don't specify what type of transmitters are on your tower. You also don't specify what type of EMF you are concerned about. Most communications towers use microwaves, whereas radio station transmitters emit lower frequency EMF. However, radio stations often send information to their transmitters through auxiliary microwave transmitters. Generally, microwaves are considered more likely to cause biological harm. It sounds like you do have a meter. I like the TriMetric meter for simple and accurate and inexpensive measurements of most types of EMF. It's about $150. Different meters read EMF differently so it is not surprising that the state used one that shows lower levels than yours. However, if you explore around the mountain and inside your home and work place with any meter you will probably find that computers do in fact expose you to a lot more EMF than most radio transmitters or high-voltage power lines. However, computers do not emit microwave frequency radiation, so if the towers are a source of microwaves then you may have a case. The TriMetric can measure microwaves. The organization at the forefront of reporting on the health implications of EMF is Microwave News. I'm pretty sure they have a web site. Get some of their literature, or find their magazine at a library (it is expensive to subscribe) and that will be an excellent first stop in information gathering for your fight. Chris Neurath ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 07:44:40 -0700 From: Samantha L McDonald Subject: GBlist: EMF >there is a local struggle i figured you all might have some contacts, suggestions, or references for- radio towers on Lookout Mountain are introducing extremely high EMF levels to the residents- and there is a big push to bring another very large one into the area. What this community is looking for is another that has "been there" to be a model for the litigation- and especially any "evidence" that EMF's are dangerous- (especially at 15 times the surrounding levels) so far the state wont listen and is apparently getting a much lesser reading at the same site (hmmm...- not to mention they wont meet to jointly read a meter...) they are attemping to push the dangers off onto the computers in the work force as well... any and all well respected leads and studies will help- they also plan on bringing in a lot of publicity on this one. thanks for your support! >Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 20 11:47:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA04078 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:47:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25802; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:40:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:35:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25468 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25464 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:35:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca (be417@freenet3 [134.117.136.23]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id LAA06521; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:33:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id LAA22691; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:33:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:33:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902201633.LAA22691@freenet3.carleton.ca> From: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: EMF (battling proposed hydro lines) Cc: goldeneagle1@juno.com, billc@greenbuilder.com Reply-To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk on Fri, 19 Feb 1999 Samantha L McDonald wrote: re: EMF [snipped] >big push to bring another very large one into the area. What this >community is looking for is another that has "been there" to be a model >for the litigation Hello Samantha; Many years ago, Ontario Hydro(OH) wanted to erect a massive high-voltage power line over an elementary school in the Bridlewood subdivision of Kanata. The parents banded together and formed the Bridlewood Hydro Line Action Committee (BHLAC) in an attempt to stop OH from doing so. As a result of that lengthy fight, the group compiled an extensive body of material and expertise which is available at the "Bridlewood Electromagnetic Fields Information Service" website. I can't spew-off the URL but it shouldn't be too hard to find. I think that Bill Christensen's GreenBuilder website has a link to it (and I don't know the URL for that either) . Sorry eh ? Or you can write to Richard Woodley (ab190@ncf.ca) who is one of the organisers of the former BHLAC. Good luck. You're going to need it. ---------- * ---------- Rob_Tom @ ncf.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 20 12:47:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA04644 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:47:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29072; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:40:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:36:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA28713 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:35:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([216.171.28.121]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA28709 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:35:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com ([216.171.28.123] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000092418 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:34:28 +0000 Date: Sat, 20 Feb 99 11:52:52 CDT From: billc@txinfinet.com (Bill Christensen) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: GBlist: Re(2): EMF (battling proposed hydro lines) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <6194482.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca writes: >As a result of that lengthy fight, the group compiled an extensive >body of material and expertise which is available at the >"Bridlewood Electromagnetic Fields Information Service" website. >I can't spew-off the URL but it shouldn't be too hard to >find. I think that Bill Christensen's GreenBuilder website has a >link to it (and I don't know the URL for that either) . Sorry eh ? Go to http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/emf.html. There's a link at the end. BC -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 20 14:06:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA05587 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 14:06:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03127; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:59:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:55:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02806 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:55:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02796 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:55:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 9324 invoked by alias); 20 Feb 1999 18:56:21 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 9283 invoked by uid 0); 20 Feb 1999 18:56:19 -0000 Received: from kdialup146.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.180.241.146) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 20 Feb 1999 18:56:19 -0000 Message-ID: <001601be5d02$5f4c3460$92f1b4d1@h5n5y7> From: "PETER F. ALSPACH" To: , Cc: , Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: EMF (battling proposed hydro lines) Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:53:57 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Here's the website: http://www.ncf.carleton.ca/bridlewood-emfinfo/ Pete Alspach ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 20 15:49:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA07318 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:49:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08363; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:42:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:38:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA07986 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:38:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from labs.tamu.edu (labs.tamu.edu [128.194.103.89]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA07982 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:38:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (modem-1871.rns.tamu.edu) by labs.tamu.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <1.00127CC9@labs.tamu.edu>; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 14:40:36 -0600 Message-ID: <36CF1DDC.3088@labs.tamu.edu> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 14:41:00 -0600 From: marvit Reply-To: rsm444d@labs.tamu.edu Organization: Texas A&M University X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Green building list Subject: GBlist: Thanks Hog input References: <000001be57af$6426a4a0$6381b7d1@jfstraube> <36C98C20.60F23180@cow-net.com> <36CB0379.7897@labs.tamu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Decided to live in it.... (dodge road hog) ha ha, kiding..its big, but not that big. Thanks alot!!! for input. > Warm regards, J.frost ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 20 17:00:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA08161 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 17:00:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12049; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:53:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:49:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA11675 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:49:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu09.email.msn.com [207.46.181.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA11671 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:49:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from h9qjy - 153.35.253.184 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:50:49 -0800 Message-ID: <000401be5d1b$5dbfbea0$b8fd2399@h9qjy> From: "Patti" To: "Greenbuilding" Subject: GBlist: Smaller Septic System with Composting Toilets? Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:52:14 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk We own one of two lots with a shared septic system with a septic permit for a total of six bedrooms (three bedrooms for each home). The other lot owner has prospective buyers who want to build a four-bedroom home. We're not thrilled with the idea having such a large home next to ours (we're planning on a two-bedroom home), but I thought I'd look into possible solutions to the septic restriction. If either home installs composting toilets, rather than conventional toilets, can that cause the agency that issues septic permits to re-evaluate the capacity and restrictions on a septic system? Pat pmeeks@msn.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 20 19:50:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA09717 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:50:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19238; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:37:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA18603 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:37:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu03.email.msn.com [207.46.181.19]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18599 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:37:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from h9qjy - 153.36.5.110 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:38:50 -0800 Message-ID: <001001be5d32$d5ebc920$6e052499@h9qjy> From: "Patti" To: "Greenbuilding" , Subject: Re: GBlist: Smaller Septic System with Composting Toilets? Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:40:51 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk It's written as: thee-bedrooms (max) for each house, and each owner contributes equally (regardless of house size or number of bedrooms), which is fine with us. Although it's a half-acre lot, we didn't want to live in an area of large homes, nor do we want a large home. The seller wanted us to allow the purchaser to build a four-bedroom house (limiting us to two bedrooms), but we declined (although we are only planning on building a very small, two-bedroom). Here in western Washington State, the houses being built are just enorumus, ugly and wasteful (in my opinion), so I was glad to find a treed area with older, smaller homes and with most of the lots kept in mostly natural states (lots of trees, natural vegetation, etc.). I felt I'd probably find neighbors that I liked. I don't care for the majority of people I meet who have moved into the subdivisions that have taken over the area we now live in. I just have a problem being around people who steal from their children in the name of their children and I have a very difficult time holding my tongue. I wasn't thrilled to hear they wanted to build a large home and I was also wondering if there was a way around the septic permit. Thanks for the info... Pat pmeeks@,msn.com >is the permit written to allow three bedrooms per or a total of 6 ??? is >the maintenace agreement written such that each person will cntribute based on >number of bedrooms ??? if the other person builds a 4 bedroom house, that >leaves you with only 2 bedrooms which could make your house much less saleable >should that ever occur, because purchaser could not expand house to three >bedrooms - think these questions should be resolved to your satisfaction > >in any case, permit questions will depend on your local authority, in most >areas they do not even allow composting toilets --- good luck Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 20 19:50:34 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA09723 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:50:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19272; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:43:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:38:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA18659 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:37:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [209.210.78.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18655 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:37:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (usr6.cwo.com [207.173.11.6]) by mail.cwo.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA11820 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:40:21 -0800 Message-ID: <005a01be5d32$74d95260$060badcf@default> Reply-To: "Nehemiah I. Stone" From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: hoe moaners manual Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:38:04 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk In Re: "From: "Rogers, Mike" Subject: GBlist: Home Owners Manual I have searched the archives in vain... I recall some discussion of this topic last year (?), perhaps around the time of John Abram's article in the March '98 Fine Homebuilding (a great article I might add). Can anyone point me in the direction of previous discussion OR let me know about any type of home owner manuals that might exist. Thanks Mike Rogers" The California Energy Commission has a Home Owners Manual template wherein the builder can fill out the information about the home's systems' performance. Try calling the residential buildings office at (916)654-4064. Good luck. Nehemiah ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 20 20:52:06 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA10148 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:52:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA21787; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:45:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:40:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA21410 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:40:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA21402 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:40:37 -0500 (EST) From: Marcoplos@aol.com Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 1NTa003538; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:41:59 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: <740fcf47.36cf6467@aol.com> Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:41:59 EST To: PMeeks@email.msn.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Smaller Septic System with Composting Toilets? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated 2/20/99 4:53:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, PMeeks@email.msn.com writes: << If either home installs composting toilets, rather than conventional toilets, can that cause the agency that issues septic permits to re-evaluate the capacity and restrictions on a septic system? >> Probably not. It's likely to depend on your county and state rules. Here in Orange County in Piedmont North Carolina I made no headway trying to permission to have a smaller septic system if no "blackwater" was involved. The problem is that the North Carolina state regs make no official distinction between "balck" and "gray" water. Once again, reality is no obstacle. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 20 23:12:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA11122 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:12:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA26692; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:01:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA26310 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:00:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA26306 for ; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:00:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D3XY49Y6; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:02:36 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:57:44 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: EMF Message-ID: <19990220.205749.3494.5.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-8 From: Samantha L McDonald Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Thanks for the info from those who have responded so far! I am not sure of the details to Chris' questions- for i am relaying this message from one of the commuitiy members, whom i also work with in this vicinity. I will see if i can get the specifics out of her to help those answering Samantha M. 303-278-4378 ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 21 00:51:46 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11946 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:51:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA01322; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:44:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:40:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA00947 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:40:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA00903 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:40:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from h9qjy - 208.251.202.187 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:41:26 -0800 Message-ID: <001a01be5d5d$1c223c60$bbcafbd0@h9qjy> From: "Patti" To: "Greenbuilding" , Subject: Re: GBlist: Smaller Septic System with Composting Toilets? Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 21:43:28 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Thanks... I would have thought composting toilets would be better than a septic system and would allow a reduction in the size of the septic system. I guess that's not the case. Although I'm wasn't thrilled to hear the prospective buyers wanted to build such a large home (it's only for two people), I was hoping to help out the seller since I know she needs to sell her lot. However, we're not going to give up the right to construct a three-bedroom home. Regards...Pat pmeeks@msn.com >Probably not. It's likely to depend on your county and state rules. Here in >Orange County in Piedmont North Carolina I made no headway trying to >permission to have a smaller septic system if no "blackwater" was involved. >The problem is that the North Carolina state regs make no official distinction >between "balck" and "gray" water. Once again, reality is no obstacle. > >Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 21 16:15:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA20024 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:15:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28746; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:08:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:00:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA28136 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 15:59:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from AICS.NET (aics.net [209.21.198.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA28132 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 15:59:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.244.238.64] ([209.244.238.64]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 8505400 ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:11:45 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:01:54 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: Smaller Septic System with Composting Toilets Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Many states give a credit of up tp 40% in the design flow area when a composter is installed. Funny you sould ask, because this gives me an opportunity to plug my new book! We sent the computer discs to the printer on 2/16/99 and they said it would be about three weeks before it's shipped. The book is called - The Composting Toilet Systems Book - It features unsaturated aerobic systems, but also covers separation (black and gray and shades of gray) issues, dry and urine-separating toilets of various designs world-wide and graywater characteristics, constituents, pre-reuse issues and suggested reuse options such as what plants to use to consume the water and nutrients, description of the rhizosphere bioplex, transpiration, effects of sodium etc. It is both a technical reference book on: Process: physical (time, environment and additives required ), the living machinery at work (bacteria, actinomycetes, fungi, flora, fauna and their requirements), excreta characteristics and constituents, pathogens, vectors, nutrient and environment-related issues, sources for information and plans, interesting topics, such as the effect of antibiotics on composting toilets, urine rediscovered as cost-competitive fertilizer and, A how-to book: (what technologies are available from manufacturers and designers, selection criteria, capacity, specifications, prices, how to choose, permit, operate and maintain them). Interviews of users world-wide brings a personal touch to life with compost toilets. Included is a state-by-state listing of regulations and attitudes related to separated systems; a history of composting toilets and an excellent history of water-transported wastes by professor Joel Tarr of Carnegie Mellon University. After 25 years of fighting for the acceptance of separated systems, selling, designing, permitting, servicing these systems and dealing with cultural and regulatory constraints; I thought is was time to write it all down. Spinal cord injury focused my commitment and Carol Steinfeld, from our office co-authored (she conducted the rewriting, collecting of user experience, persistently pursuing manufacturers and state regulators, editing, layout and desk-top publishing, photography, graphics and project management etc.) Where to buy the book can be found at our web page: http//:www.ecological-engineering.com David Del Porto, Ecos/Sustainable Strategies Ecological Engineering, Planning and Design PO Box 1313 Concord, Massachusetts USA 01742-2968 Phone/Voice-mail: 01 978 369 9440 Fax/Telecopier: 01 978 369 2484 Web site: www.ecological-engineering.com E-mail: sustainable@aics.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 21 19:32:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA23905 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:32:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09711; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:25:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:20:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA09057 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:20:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.bctel.ca (nfs1.bctel.ca [207.194.28.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA09048 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:20:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from bc.sympatico.ca (nnim01m03-146.bctel.ca [207.102.33.146]) by mail1.bctel.ca with ESMTP id QAA09915 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:22:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36D0A302.4A3C3948@bc.sympatico.ca> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:21:43 -0800 From: Denis Berger Reply-To: denis_berger@bc.sympatico.ca X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: A place to learn? References: <199902180700.CAA11685@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi everyone, This is my first posting since I joined the list a few weeks ago. So far I've been quite impressed with the quality of discourse. My background has been in the health food business since the late seventies till '91. I have since participated in a 8 month organic gardening and permaculture course while living in a community fostering sustainablity, earth stewardship, and group co-operation. I have since received a diploma in jazz studies and I am currently taking Interior Design at a university-college on Vancouver Island. I wish to be involved with greenbuilding design and sustainable community development. I have a request, if I may. I wish to continue my education, however, I want to direct it specifically to greenbuilding design. I am looking for schools that would better serve my purpose. Does anyone have any leads? In the end, the experience and confidence to design is more important to me than a piece of paper, so I'm not married to the concept of studying at an institution. Any feedback would be appreciated. I just want to do my part in assisting in the social change necessary to provide for a more sustainable future for the inhabitants of this planet. Thank you in advance. Denis Ps. Hi John and Jorg. Glad to see your input on this list. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 21 20:55:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA24777 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:55:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15430; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:43:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15043 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:43:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([216.171.28.121]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15039 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:43:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com ([216.171.28.123] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000092860 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:41:43 +0000 Date: Sun, 21 Feb 99 20:00:12 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: A place to learn? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <6202397.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk denis_berger@bc.sympatico.ca, writes: >I have a request, if I may. I wish to continue my education, however, I want to >direct it specifically to greenbuilding design. I am looking for schools that would >better serve my purpose. Does anyone have any leads? In the end, the experience and >confidence to design is more important to me than a piece of paper, so I'm not >married to the concept of studying at an institution. Any feedback would be >appreciated. I just want to do my part in assisting in the social change necessary >to provide for a more sustainable future for the inhabitants of this planet. Thank >you in advance. Denis Hi Denis, Check out the list of schools/internships compiled by Sandra Leibowitz at http://www.ecodesign.org/edi/eden/ecoschools-map.html . It's a good one. You might also be interested in checking out the Willing Workers in Alternative Technology listserv (WWAT@lists.greenbuilder.com). The idea here to act as a networking tool between folks like yourself who are willing to work and learn, and others who have internships or apprenticeships available and are willing to spend some time teaching in exchange for, well, brute labor. To join, send email to the address above with the word SUBSCRIBE in the SUBJECT line. Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 21 23:24:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA26946 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:24:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA23935; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:17:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:12:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA23577 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:12:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA23573 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:12:37 -0500 (EST) received: from acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.206) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ808875; Sun, 21 Feb 99 21:14:29 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA37808; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:13:59 -0700 Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:13:58 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs6.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Denis Berger Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , "Fred Chambers, FMChambers@CSUPomona.edu" Subject: Re: GBlist: A place to learn? In-Reply-To: <36D0A302.4A3C3948@bc.sympatico.ca> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Denis: For a learning experience that is very diversified and where learning happens in the real world, talk to Fred Chambers (he is in my "aquaponics listserver) at the Center for Regenerative Studies at U. Of CA (Pomona?). It seems to be the most progressive school in this field in North America. Jorg Ostrowski __________________________________________________________________________ On Sun, 21 Feb 1999, Denis Berger wrote: > > Hi everyone, > This is my first posting since I joined the list a few weeks ago. So far I've been > quite impressed with the quality of discourse. > > My background has been in the health food business since the late seventies till > '91. I have since participated in a 8 month organic gardening and permaculture > course while living in a community fostering sustainablity, earth stewardship, and > group co-operation. I have since received a diploma in jazz studies and I am > currently taking Interior Design at a university-college on Vancouver Island. I > wish to be involved with greenbuilding design and sustainable community > development. > > I have a request, if I may. I wish to continue my education, however, I want to > direct it specifically to greenbuilding design. I am looking for schools that would > better serve my purpose. Does anyone have any leads? In the end, the experience and > confidence to design is more important to me than a piece of paper, so I'm not > married to the concept of studying at an institution. Any feedback would be > appreciated. I just want to do my part in assisting in the social change necessary > to provide for a more sustainable future for the inhabitants of this planet. Thank > you in advance. Denis > > Ps. Hi John and Jorg. Glad to see your input on this list. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 22 00:20:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA28777 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:20:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA28023; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:09:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA27627 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:09:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA27623 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:09:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (ip41.washington11.dc.pub-ip.psi.net [38.30.47.41]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA22190; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:10:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36D11054.9A806998@earthlink.net> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:07:48 -0800 From: Sandra Leibowitz X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: A place to learn? References: <6202397.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > A note on "Eco-Building Schools": > > The current intention (and some of you have heard this before) is to refocus, > update and expand it in the near future, both in print and on the web. Any > feedback folks have on listings or non-listings they've had direct experience > with is appreciated. The scope at the time was specific to non-architecture > school opportunities (with one exception), but I'm not sure if that will remain > the case. Also, the website > http://www.ecodesign.org/edi/eden/ecoschools-map.html still lists my email > address from over 2 years ago--can't seem to get 'em to change it. -Sandra Leibowitz ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 22 00:32:37 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA28846 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:32:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA28967; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:25:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:21:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA28590 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:21:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA28586 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip21.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.40]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA106 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:25:53 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990222003118.007c5930@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:31:18 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: GBlist: Backdrafting/Spillage In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi All: In reading through the current draft of the ASTM Standard Practice for installing radon mitigation systems in existing low rise residential buildings, I got to wondering about backdrafting/spillage in homes with vented gas-fired appliances. Conversations with some commercial radon mitigators indicate a clear preference to minimize their task requirements for a particular job. Indeed, practical experience soon showed that optimizing location of suction pits and things like that are limited by what the homeowner will allow. Nonetheless, my background with indoor air quality sees an opportunity to do a "good deed" when backdrafting potential is evident. I've seen preliminary results of recent exploratory work in this country, but haven't looked through that part of the literature since the Canadian work from about ten years ago that led to the spillage test (CAN/CGSB-51.71-95) and the Scanada manual on chimney safety. My question is: how are the Spillage Test and the Chimney Safety Test manual placed into use in Canada? Are they required by law? Recognized as reasonable accepted practice? Thanks, ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 22 07:55:04 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA03693 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:55:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA11052; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:47:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:43:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA10588 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:43:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA10571; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:43:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp028.cd.centuryinter.net (ppp028.cd.centuryinter.net [209.142.147.100]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA19312; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 06:41:07 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36D1804B.BA@centuryinter.net> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:10:44 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Reply-To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Renewable News Network CC: coblist@deatech.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: fannie mae financing References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Renewable News Network wrote: > > Have you thought about getting another banker? > > On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Keith Breuker wrote: > > > Today my banker told me that he couldn't give me fannie mae financing > > because there are no comprable sales in Northern Michigan. He would > > give a bank financed loan at about two and one half percentage points > > higher. Of course I would prefer a fannie mae loan. Any help out > > there. I am busily searching the archives as you read this. > > > > Thanks. > > > > Keith > >______________________________________________________________________ We finalized a construction loan to finish construction on our SB home in Northern Michigan last week. Once our banker learned that other SB homes have been financed by fannie mae he was enthused and willing to get it done. Keith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 22 09:32:37 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA05469 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:32:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA14954; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:25:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:21:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA14484 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:21:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from oak (caroldag@oak.liii.com [198.207.193.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA14477 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:21:07 -0500 (EST) From: "Carol D'Agostino" Received: by oak (8.8.6/8.8.5) id OAA02549; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:22:54 GMT Message-Id: <199902221422.OAA02549@oak> Subject: Re: GBlist: Propane Clean-up? To: herector@paltech.com (Harry Rector) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:22:52 -0500 (EST) Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990222003118.007c5930@paltech.com> from "Harry Rector" at Feb 22, 99 00:31:18 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I'm a non-professional list lurker who is about to have a backup generator installed that I want to run on propane. Never having worked with propane before, I've been educating myself on it's properties and necessary safety measures. I am chemically sensitive and concerned about a spill. How does one clean up a propane spill? Is it possible to keep it out of one's basement? The propane tanks and the generator will be located about 30 feet away from the house. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Carol caroldag@liii.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 22 10:33:38 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07069 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:33:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA19107; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:26:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:22:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA18425 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:22:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mx.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA18421 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:21:59 -0500 (EST) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo27.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 5WTNa26290; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:17:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <61cf14f.36d17527@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:17:59 EST To: caroldag@liii.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Propane Clean-up? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 76 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Carol - You might want to take a look at the paper "The Surprising Link Between Natural Gas and Environmental Sensitivities and Other Illnesses" By: David Wimberly GAS ATTACKS: The Surprising Link Between Natural Gas and Environmental Sensitivities and Other Illnesses http://www.fiscorp.net/iaq/iaqapps3.html Regards, Cathy Flanders IAQ List Manager & Moderator Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com IAQ Listserve (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq IAQ Listserve (to search archives) http://www.onelist.com/arcindex.cgi?listname=iaq Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://www.fiscorp.net/iaq/ The Home Owner's Candle Soot Damage Bulletin Board http://disc.server.com/Indices/41692.html << Subj: Re: GBlist: Propane Clean-up? Date: 99-02-22 09:24:48 EST From: caroldag@liii.com (Carol D'Agostino) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org I'm a non-professional list lurker who is about to have a backup generator installed that I want to run on propane. Never having worked with propane before, I've been educating myself on it's properties and necessary safety measures. I am chemically sensitive and concerned about a spill. >> ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 22 11:19:53 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08161 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:19:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24186; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:12:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:08:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA23327 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:08:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA23316 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:07:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id D33U45KH; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:09:35 EST To: denis_berger@bc.sympatico.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:06:03 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: A place to learn? Message-ID: <19990222.110944.9046.1.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <199902180700.CAA11685@solstice.crest.org> <36D0A302.4A3C3948@bc.sympatico.ca> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-6,13-14,21-22,26 From: "Beverly A. Weiter" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Denis, You say you want to study interior design and "green" design. I wish you luck finding a school. I myself am an interior designer and I am continually dismayed to see what an uphill fight it is to bring awareness to the interior design community. I lecture on sustainable interior design, both here in Florida and elsewhere in the country. With few exceptions, most designers tell me that my material is news to them. Primarily those who are aware are those who have suffered from exposure to chemicals associated with working in the industry. A smaller percentage are aware of using sustainably harvested woods and a few more are aware of using recycled products. As recently as 6 months ago I attended a lighting seminar in which energy efficiency was not even mentioned and featured designs utilized pretty much standard energy hogging lamping. Meanwhile, at the locally promoted "street of dreams" parade of dream homes open this week, it was design as usual with no thought for sighting, daylighting, or sustainability. Even the ads boast of features like "showers big enough to bathe and elephant". The message remains, bigger is better. Until recently the interior design industry did little to focus attention on the environment. While that is slowly changing, almost nothing has filtered down to the design school curriculums. There are exceptions if you look hard enough. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 22 11:52:38 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08910 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:52:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27414; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:45:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:41:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA26919 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:40:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26905 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:40:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (STD1.2/BZS-8-1.0) id LAA12369; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:42:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA08454; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:42:45 -0500 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:42:45 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: "Carol D'Agostino" Cc: Harry Rector , "Ross M. Donald 1-781-453-9668" , "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: Re: GBlist: Propane/backup? In-Reply-To: <199902221422.OAA02549@oak> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear Carol, Why propane? ...as we might ask. If the propane system is the backup, what are the main energy sources and systems? What is the load on the backup system? How much, how often, peak requirements... How small can you make it and what are the clean alternatives, considering your air quality health preferences and concerns over the inherent hazards? Yours truly, Ross On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Carol D'Agostino wrote: > I'm a non-professional list lurker who is about to have a backup > generator installed that I want to run on propane. Never having > worked with propane before, I've been educating myself on it's > properties and necessary safety measures. > > I am chemically sensitive and concerned about a spill. How > does one clean up a propane spill? Is it possible to keep > it out of one's basement? The propane tanks and the generator > will be located about 30 feet away from the house. > > Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. > > Carol > caroldag@liii.com > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 22 12:47:00 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10811 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:47:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA02671; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:39:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:35:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02001 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:35:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from airmail.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.20.220]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA01992 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:35:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from arb.ca.gov ([146.114.11.17]) by airmail.arb.ca.gov (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA51DE; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:35:54 -0800 Message-ID: <36D1965C.9B029B20@arb.ca.gov> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:39:40 -0800 From: "Thomas Phillips" Organization: CARB/RD, Indoor Air Quality and Personal Exposure Assessment Program X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Subject: GBlist: Payne gas furnaces Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------5DD03757F68F466A9E247262" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5DD03757F68F466A9E247262 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear GB listers, et al: We just received a call re: Payne gas furnaces in a 10-12 year old development of single family homes causing a house fire in one home and melted wiring in another. The units seem to be cycling on & off constantly, suggesting faulty design or installation of the heat limit switch. Heat exchanger failure or backdrafting/spillage could be occurring also, but no CO symptoms or moisture problems have been reported so far. Some owners are replacing the entire furnace, while others are spending several hundred dollars to repair/modify the furnace. I don't have any more info yet. This could be a more widespread problem that is going undetected. Payne was apparently bought a while back by another manufacturer. Does anyone have any info on recalls or corrective actions for this problem? Payne did not show up in searching the CPSC site. TIA, Tom Phillips -- Thomas J. Phillips CARB/RD, 2020 L St., POB 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 916.322.7145/4357 FAX IAQ guidelines: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor/indoor.htm Research summaries: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor/resnotes.htm --------------5DD03757F68F466A9E247262 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for THOMAS J. PHILLIPS Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: THOMAS J. PHILLIPS n: PHILLIPS;THOMAS J. org: California Air Resources Board, Research Division adr: 2020 L St.;;POB 2815;Sacramento;CA;95812;USA email;internet: tphillip@arb.ca.gov title: Air Pollution Research Specialist tel;work: 916.322.7145 tel;fax: / 4357 note;quoted-printable:IAQ guidelines: http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm=0D=0A= Research summaries: http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------5DD03757F68F466A9E247262-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 22 13:03:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA11953 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:03:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA04672; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:56:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:52:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA03976 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:51:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA03960 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:51:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from nbc (tmanney@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.5]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1/mailhub+tar) with ESMTP id LAA26558; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:53:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost by nbc (8.8.8+Sun/1.34) id LAA19588; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:53:25 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:53:24 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Manney X-Sender: tmanney@nbc.ksu.ksu.edu To: "Carol D'Agostino" cc: Harry Rector , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Propane Clean-up? In-Reply-To: <199902221422.OAA02549@oak> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk We use propane to heat a greenhouse. Although propane is liquid in the tank, it is a gas at atmospheric pressure, so there is no actual "spill" situation. It just leaks like any other gas. They add a strong "smellant" to it which, at least for me, makes even small outdoor leaks obvious. If both fuel and generator are 30 ft from structure there should be no risk of it getting into the basement. The gas is heavy, but I can't imagine it moving that far outdoors in any significant concentration except from a massive leak. Tom Manney tmanney@ksu.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 22 13:39:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA13385 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:39:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07784; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:32:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:27:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA07110 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:27:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from airmail.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.20.220]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07095; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:27:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from arb.ca.gov ([146.114.11.17]) by airmail.arb.ca.gov (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA4736; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:28:12 -0800 Message-ID: <36D1A29E.C351237D@arb.ca.gov> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:31:59 -0800 From: "Thomas Phillips" Organization: CARB/RD, Indoor Air Quality and Personal Exposure Assessment Program X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST , ee-building@crest.org, "MUDARRI, DAVID" , "PROCTOR, JOHN" Subject: GBlist: Payne gas furnace failure Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------10D9B4062F781DB77E663A6D" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------10D9B4062F781DB77E663A6D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear GB listers, et al: We just received a call re: Payne gas furnaces in a 10-12 year old development of single family homes causing a house fire in one home and melted wiring in another. The units seem to be cycling on & off constantly, suggesting faulty design or installation of the heat limit switch. Heat exchanger failure or backdrafting/spillage could be occurring also, but no CO symptoms or moisture problems have been reported so far. Some owners are replacing the entire furnace, while others are spending several hundred dollars to repair/modify the furnace. I don't have any more info yet. This could be a more widespread problem that is going undetected. Payne was apparently bought a while back by another manufacturer. Does anyone have any info on recalls or corrective actions for this problem? Payne did not show up in searching the CPSC site. TIA, Tom Phillips ---------- Thomas J. Phillips CARB/RD, 2020 L St., POB 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 916.322.7145/4357 FAX IAQ guidelines: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor/indoor.htm Research summaries: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor/resnotes.htm --------------10D9B4062F781DB77E663A6D Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for THOMAS J. PHILLIPS Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: THOMAS J. PHILLIPS n: PHILLIPS;THOMAS J. org: California Air Resources Board, Research Division adr: 2020 L St.;;POB 2815;Sacramento;CA;95812;USA email;internet: tphillip@arb.ca.gov title: Air Pollution Research Specialist tel;work: 916.322.7145 tel;fax: / 4357 note;quoted-printable:IAQ guidelines: http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm=0D=0A= Research summaries: http://www.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------10D9B4062F781DB77E663A6D-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 22 15:15:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA15625 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:15:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16529; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:08:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:03:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15720 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:03:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (wfntnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.37.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15681; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:02:51 -0500 (EST) From: swiftjr@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 85256720.006E3599 ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:03:46 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com cc: tphillip@arb.ca.gov, greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org, MUDARRI.DAVID@epamail.epa.gov, peg@nbn.com Message-ID: <85256720.006C3853.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:03:42 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: Payne gas furnace failure Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I found your comments about the ductwork interesting. I wish there was some way to have all ductwork inspected and tested to see the effects that it has on the performance of the house/HVAC system. Too many people I have talked to are lulled into a false sense of security because they have purchased efficient equipment with a bright yellow sticker to prove it. (Likewise, many customers think 2 x 6 construction automatically means their home is efficient). But if the efficiency of the house system, as apposed to the efficiency of the equipment was measured, it would be a much different story. Many home-owners would be very shocked and dismayed if their duct system was tested and given a yellow Energy Guide sticker which would show them the relative efficiency of their duct system. There are many nice pieces of equipment out there which are only delivering a fraction of what they should because of poorly sealed, insulated, sized, and balanced duct systems, not to mention increased infiltration/exfiltration of houses, potential moisture problems, and last but not least, potential CO problems. I Got that off my chest and now I feel better. Joe Swift ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 22 15:28:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA15240 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:01:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14585; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:53:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:49:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13943 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13933 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:48:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id NAA28118 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:50:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-wa45-04.ix.netcom.com(207.220.47.4) by dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma027966; Mon Feb 22 13:49:20 1999 Message-ID: <001d01be5e59$0177a0b0$042fdccf@upesi> From: "Russel DeLombard" To: "Green Building" Subject: Re: GBlist: Propane Clean-up? Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:46:34 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Feb 02 1999 Tom Manney writes (in part): >(snip) ...Although propane is liquid in the >tank, it is a gas at atmospheric pressure, so there is no actual "spill" >situation. It just leaks like any other gas... >(snip)...If both fuel and generator are 30 ft from structure there should >be no risk of it getting into the basement. The gas is heavy, but I can't >imagine it moving that far outdoors in any significant concentration >except from a massive leak. > >Tom Manney >tmanney@ksu.edu Further to Tom's comments...since propane is heavier than air it will "flow" to, and collect in, low areas...like a basement. I understand yours is some distance away...but I believe some cautionary notes are in order. For example, propane is often used as a cooking fuel on power and sail yachts. Proper handling of the fuel (such as shutting off the valve on the tank before the burner is turned off so the fuel from the line is consumed), location of the tank and "drains" to daylight from the tank storage area are essential to avoid the dangerous (and possibly unknown) accumulation of propane in lower parts of the vessel...such as the bilge. Location of the equipment, tank and plumbing connecting them (which can develop leaks) should be considered with that in mind. Building codes normally control such matters. Technical information and assistance should be sought from your local building official and/or local propane dealer(s) on the proper installation and storage of propane. Russel DeLombard, Architect Avatar Construction Inc. Box 11257 Bainbridge Island WA 98110 (206) 842-9350 Phone/FAX ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 22 15:39:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA16279 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:39:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA10885; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:09:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:04:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10136 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:04:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10106; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:04:04 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id IVZa000808; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:05:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <4de8323d.36d1aa70@aol.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:05:20 EST To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov, greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org, MUDARRI.DAVID@epamail.epa.gov, peg@nbn.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: Payne gas furnace failure Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I believe Payne is a division of Carrier, unless something has changed in the last few years. Carrier's "BDP" line stands for "Bryant, Day&Night, and Payne". Don't discount the possibility of airflow being too low (blockage or undersized ductwork), which would not be the furnace manufacturer's fault, and which would cause the some of the symptoms you are describing. Ian Shapiro Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 108 South Albany Street Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX imshapiro@aol.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 22 19:38:34 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA24232 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:38:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12698; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:31:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:26:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA12174 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:26:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA12162; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:26:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip182.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.182]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA29047; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:28:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990223002953.00a3fe50@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:29:53 -0500 To: swiftjr@NU.COM From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: Payne gas furnace failure Cc: tphillip@arb.ca.gov, greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org, MUDARRI.DAVID@epamail.epa.gov, peg@nbn.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 03:03 PM 2/22/1999 -0500, swiftjr@NU.COM wrote: > I found your comments about the ductwork interesting. > I wish there was some way to have all ductwork inspected and tested ... Tom - there is a way - actually 3 ways: 1 - if all the ductwork is in conditioned space, a blower door test. 2 - if some are outside, pressure pan tests must be less than .5 pascals 3 - or test the system itself with a ductblaster - no leakage greater than 5% of system flow. see Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 22 21:26:59 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA27137 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:26:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18755; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:18:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:14:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18450 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:14:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18445 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:14:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from crocker.com (iplink157.crocker.com [205.246.4.157]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA08336; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:19:14 -0500 Message-ID: <36D20F4F.8D6E46B6@crocker.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:15:44 -0500 From: John Boehs Reply-To: jhbz@crocker.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, deblombard@swinter.com Subject: GBlist: Re: fiber optics with solar collected light References: <199902200700.CAA09594@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Last summer I attended the solar design showcase in NYC at the National Design Museum. One of the interesting items on display was a device that collected and concentrated outdoor light and piped it into the museum for diplay lighting. I'm not certain if it was true fiber optic technology but it achieved "fiber optic type" light transport. The device was called a "Himawari System" manufactured by Asahi Glass Co., Ltd. For a brief description visit: http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/Futures/LF-Daylighting/index.html Asahi Glass is at: http://www.agc.co.jp/english/index.htm Sorry no European contacts. Hope that helps. Good Luck. John Boehs @ Bruce Coldham Architects Amherst, MA USA > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:41:40 -0500 > From: Debra Lombard > Subject: GBlist: fiber optics with solar collected light > > Hello! > > I am researching information regarding any US, European or Asian > application of fiber optics with solar collected light for use in > building lighting. If you know of any European contacts it would be > greatly > appreciated. > Thank you for your assistance. > > Sincerely, > Debra Lombard > deblombard@swinter.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 22 21:39:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA28112 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:39:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA19629; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:32:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:28:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA19154 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:27:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA19150 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:27:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D34YLCGS; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:29:34 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:24:35 -0700 Subject: GBlist: Re: EMF Message-ID: <19990222.192436.3510.1.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <199902200700.CAA09594@solstice.crest.org> <36D20F4F.8D6E46B6@crocker.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2-6 From: Samantha L McDonald Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk more info on these towers of discussion- digital television-high intensity is the name of the game from what i understand. the hearing is on the 10th so any more info ASAP would be greatly appreciated. Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 23 01:16:07 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA03620 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 01:16:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA29340; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 01:08:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Feb 1999 01:04:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA29056 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 01:04:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from freebie.telinco.net (freebie.telinco.net [212.1.128.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA29048 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 01:04:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from lizard (ppp-2-3-2.access.telinco.net [212.1.136.2]) by freebie.telinco.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA12661 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 06:05:23 GMT Message-Id: <199902230605.GAA12661@freebie.telinco.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Earthwise" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:47:53 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Smaller Septic System with Composting Toilets? Reply-to: earthwise@earthwise.nwnet.co.uk X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > If either home installs composting toilets, rather than conventional > toilets, can that cause the agency that issues septic permits to re-evaluate > the capacity and restrictions on a septic system? > > Pat pmeeks@msn.com With regard to above, I suggest that you have a look at the USA and Canada suppliers at our website on comopsting toilets. Contact a few of them and they will be able to help as most of their time is spent dealing with authorities who have to be educated on composting toilets and the difference between greywater and blackwater. The URL is; http://www.nwnet.co.uk/earthwise/3makers.htm cheers, Kevin Ison EARTHWISE PUBLICATIONS High Walk House Kirkby Malzeard Ripon HG4 3RY England Phone + 44 01765 658786 Fax on request. Email: earthwise@earthwise.nwnet.co.uk "World of Composting Toilets": http://www.nwnet.co.uk/earthwise/ "International Composting Toilet News" http://www.nwnet.co.uk/earthwise/journal1/ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 23 08:51:39 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA08839 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:51:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15937; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:44:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:40:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA15427 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:39:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM (wfntnotesmta2.nu.com [159.108.37.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA15423; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:39:49 -0500 (EST) From: swiftjr@NU.COM Received: by NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM(Lotus SMTP MTA v4.6.1 (569.2 2-6-1998)) id 85256721.004B2EAE ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:41:11 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NU To: doughf@mindspring.com cc: tphillip@arb.ca.gov, greenbuilding@crest.org, ee-building@crest.org, MUDARRI.DAVID@epamail.epa.gov, peg@nbn.com Message-ID: <85256721.0045140B.00@NUNOTESMTA2.NU.COM> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:41:10 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: EEBA-L: Payne gas furnace failure Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Tom - there is a way - actually 3 ways: 1 - if all the ductwork is in conditioned space, a blower door test. 2 - if some are outside, pressure pan tests must be less than .5 pascals 3 - or test the system itself with a ductblaster - no leakage greater than 5% of system flow. --------------------------------------------------------------------- A few things: I realize there is a way to test ducts. But how many consumer know that? What I really meant to say (my fault) is that I wish it was a requirement on homes for ductwork to be tested both on a new construction basis (and perhaps even on exhisting construction). Also, is there a better way to educated consumers about duct losses and to make testing readily available to them? The average consumer relies upon their builder who tells them "this is the way it is done on all my homes". The end result for the many consumer looking for energy effiency is 2 x 6 walls (with a real crappy insulation job not to mention lack of air-sealing), Tyvek to stop drafts (woopee), and a relatively efficient piece of equipment (if they are lucky) coupled with a poor duct system. Net result = inneficient house and HVAC system. Yet they are satisfied (naive would be the better word) because their builder assured them that he knows what he is doing and they are still paying substantially less to heat their home than their neighbors who have houses that are 100 years old and/or have electric heat. Also,the above tests address leakage. And what about improperly sized systems. What about conductive losses -- those ducts up in the basement that are sometimes not insulated. And what about those ducts in the attic that have minimal insulation? Heat loss is a function of temperature difference and thermal conductivity. Why so little insulation on that octopus of a duct system that is carrying HOT air through the attic (you are increasing the temperature differential substantially, you should increase the insulation substantially to compensate). One HVAC installer once told me that the hot air in the ducts is travelling fast, therefore, it doesn't have time to lose heat. Really. My name is Joe, not Tom. Joe Swift Energy Crafted Home Program Connecticut ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 23 09:41:41 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA09626 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:41:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18813; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:34:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:30:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18160 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:29:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18153; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:29:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca (be417@freenet3 [134.117.136.23]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id JAA25720; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:31:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id JAA09109; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:31:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:31:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902231431.JAA09109@freenet3.carleton.ca> From: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: savanwey@tva.gov Subject: GBlist: Re: Windows Cc: strawbale@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Reply-To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk savanwey@tva.gov wrote: > >Looking for recommendations on windows. I am going to have a lot of >south facing glass. Budget is of concern!!! Hello Shane and BudgetHeads; By coincidence or Kismet, the following message arrived in my mailbox recently. Thermotech makes some of the best windows in North America and will sell their pull-trusions-only, making the option of site-built, fixed, south-facing glazing less of a performance compromise. (ie get the best deal on glass you can get locally and put the glass into the best frames that you can get anywhere) Even if you don't purchase anything from Thermotech, the basic information on windows that their website provides (prior to updating and hopefully still) is invaluable. The RXL-80 that Stephen is referring to is Roxul mineral wool fibre board insulation, a potential improvement (ie more Green) over the EPS inserts that they are presently using. Sorry if this seemed like a "plug" for Thermotech, which, I suppose it is. For economical glass, you might want to look at designing the expanses of south facing glass using standard-size, tempered patio door or terrace door IGU which can be purchased in bulk at a fraction of the cost of custom-sized, non-tempered units. ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: stephen@thermotechwindows.com (Stephen Thwaites) To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca Subject: website updated! Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:59:35 -0500 We've added more details to the Fibertherm window section. The most noticeable will be the cross sectional drawings There is also our first attempt at a photo gallery and hopefully by now a list of stock windows available at bargain rates. thought you'd like to know ST P.S. We will soon be trying RXL 80 as a sash insulator. And when we run low on EPS for our other profiles, we will try them as well. Stephen Thwaites Thermotech Windows Ltd Ottawa Canada (613) 225-1101 ===================== end forwarded message ====================== (and thanks to Stephen for the news) ---------- * ---------- Rob_Tom @ ncf.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 23 10:39:55 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA11768 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:39:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA23276; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:32:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:28:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22704 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:28:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA22686 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:27:53 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ258509; Tue, 23 Feb 99 08:28:29 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA99510; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:28:22 -0700 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:28:22 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: John Boehs Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, deblombard@swinter.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: fiber optics with solar collected light In-Reply-To: <36D20F4F.8D6E46B6@crocker.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk John: Many years ago I visited a company in Vancouver British Columbia Canada that made a similar product called the "Light Pipe" also using fiber optics for similar applications. Perhaps some of our Vancouver list colleagues may update us on whether or not this company/product may still be around.Jorg ostrowski ________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, John Boehs wrote: > > Last summer I attended the solar design showcase in NYC at the National Design Museum. > One of the interesting items on display was a device that collected and concentrated > outdoor light and piped it into the museum for diplay lighting. I'm not certain if it > was true fiber optic technology but it achieved "fiber optic type" light transport. The > device was called a "Himawari System" manufactured by Asahi Glass Co., Ltd. > > For a brief description visit: http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/Futures/LF-Daylighting/index.html > > Asahi Glass is at: http://www.agc.co.jp/english/index.htm > > Sorry no European contacts. Hope that helps. Good Luck. > > John Boehs > @ Bruce Coldham Architects > Amherst, MA USA > > > > > Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:41:40 -0500 > > From: Debra Lombard > > Subject: GBlist: fiber optics with solar collected light > > > > Hello! > > > > I am researching information regarding any US, European or Asian > > application of fiber optics with solar collected light for use in > > building lighting. If you know of any European contacts it would be > > greatly > > appreciated. > > Thank you for your assistance. > > > > Sincerely, > > Debra Lombard > > deblombard@swinter.com > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 23 11:34:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA13418 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:34:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27961; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:26:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:22:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27541 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:22:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27533 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA00800 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:20:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:20:28 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Courtright To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: home heating alternatives Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Can anybody here steer me to someplace where I can find truly legitimate cost comparisons (or charts to calculate, based on local costs of propane, electricity, and oil) for various methods of home heating? Every source I've been able to uncover so far on the Web has been suspect: charts by oil dealers, power companies, natural gas suppliers, etc. Opinions on the relative greenness of the various heat sources would also be very welcome. I live in the Pacific Northwest, where electricity is currently cheap. Natural gas is not an option where we'll be building. The choice has to be between oil, propane, and eletricity. We will NOT be using forced air heat; I hate it. Opinions on pluses and minuses of the various heat sources (e.g. water vapor generation by gas heating sources) would also be welcome. Radiant floor heating would be preferred from the comfort standpoint. I know there's at least one outfit that builds an electric, as opposed to a hot water, radiant system--but of course they make no mention of EMFs; any opinions on such here? Yeah, I know; it'd take several books to cover the subject properly, and nobody here is likely to want to write one overnight. But being steered to books, articles, abstracts, web sites, pamphlets, whatever, would be almost as good. -|//*Alan Courtright*\\|= Poulsbo, WA acourtri@krl.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 23 12:18:03 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14491 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:18:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01213; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:10:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:05:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA00701 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:05:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from AICS.NET (aics.net [209.21.198.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA00697 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:05:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.244.238.78] ([209.244.238.40]) by AICS.NET with SMTP (IPAD 2.03) id 8978300 ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:17:31 EST Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:07:32 -0500 To: pmeeks@msn.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: sustainable@aics.net (Sustainable Strategies) Subject: GBlist: Design flow reduction Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk If you tell me what state your from, I'll look it up in my book and tell you what position they will take. We conatcted ALL of the states and in some cases 3 or 4 time before we got the facts. David Del Porto Ecos/Sustainable Strategies Ecological Engineering, Planning and Design PO Box 1313 Concord, Massachusetts USA 01742-2968 Phone/Voice-mail: 01 978 369 9440 Fax/Telecopier: 01 978 369 2484 Web site: www.ecological-engineering.com E-mail: sustainable@aics.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 23 12:22:53 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA14647 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:22:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01671; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:15:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:11:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA01248 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:10:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from send106.yahoomail.com (send106.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.43]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA01234 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:10:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990223165041.5311.rocketmail@send106.yahoomail.com> Received: from [207.172.108.195] by send106.yahoomail.com; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:50:41 PST Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:50:41 -0800 (PST) From: Gary Anderson Subject: GBlist: Solar source fiberoptic light pipes To: deblombard@swinter.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Debra, I seem to recall seeing something within the past several years in Popular Science magazine about solar source fiberoptic light pipes. I checked the Popular Science web site, but unfortunately their primitive search function could not find the article. Also tried several other web searches without luck. I am completely certain that the article exists however. I wish I could give you more info, but PS may be somewhere to look if you can find a good index for the magazine's articles. May be somewhere to start anyway. I find the concept fascinating. Gary Anderson == Gary and Sook-Kyung Anderson ;^} Future Green Builders Newport News VA _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 23 13:15:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA16071 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:15:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06186; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:08:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:04:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05574 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:03:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05548 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:03:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.74] (newhenyusr0-a96.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.96]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA29233 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:05:27 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:05:27 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Greenbuilding discussion list From: CN Subject: GBlist: "Carol D'Agostino" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:22:52 -0500 (EST) From: "Carol D'Agostino" Subject: Re: GBlist: Propane Clean-up? I'm a non-professional list lurker who is about to have a backup generator installed that I want to run on propane. Never having worked with propane before, I've been educating myself on it's properties and necessary safety measures. I am chemically sensitive and concerned about a spill. How does one clean up a propane spill? Is it possible to keep it out of one's basement? The propane tanks and the generator will be located about 30 feet away from the house. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. Carol caroldag@liii.com Carol, Some of the questions and comments from the list on your proposed propane back-up generator are good. They pointed out that "spills" clean themselves up if they are outside. Also, that propane is heavier than air, so if your house is in a depression (bad place to be) then you could potentially have a problem on a still day, even if the propane is kept 30 feet away from the house. I'm going to make some assumptions about what you are trying to do and give you my two cents. I assume you want back-up power for when you loose power from the grid during storms or such. And that the generator won't be used that often. Perhaps just a couple of times a year. If this is the case, then propane is definitely a better alternative than gasoline. If you use liquid fuels, then you really have to run the generator once a month or so and make sure the fuel doesn't go bad, otherwise it might not start when you really need it. If you are like me, you are not going to remember or want to spend time running your generator every month. If the generator is electric start, then you will have to make sure the starter battery keeps charged. I'm not sure how this is normally done with intermittent use back-up generators. Propane does not go bad and is much cleaner burning and easier starting so you can probably get away with not doing the regular preventative maintenance. I think a lot of the safety issues will be taken care of if you get a regular supplier of propane to bring you the gas, using their equipment, instead of trying to use a 20 pound tank like for gas grills, and doing the installation yourself. Furthermore, it won't really cost you any more, since the propane suppliers generally deliver for free, and propane in 100 pound cyclinders is much cheaper than in 20 pound cylinders. In northern New York I pay $40 for 100 pounds delivered. They may charge a small one-time hook-up fee, but that will include installing all needed valves and pressure regulators and checking for leaks. By putting the generator 30 feet from your house you have solved virtually all the health problems. My own propane tanks (100 pound cyclinders) often do have small leaks when they are delivered. The valves aren't closed tightly, or the packing nut needs to be tightened. They are right next to my house and the smell is annoying to me. I am somewhat chemically sensitive. However, I generally am able to fix these leaks, and the smells rarely ever get inside my house. If the tanks and appliance which uses the propane are all 30 feet from your house, I doubt you will have any problems. Even small leaks will probably be very diluted by the time they get to your house. However, you may want to sniff, or get someone else to check for small leaks with soapy water every time you change tanks, and at regular intervals. After many months, even small leaks can empty a cyclinder. Also, you might want to consider putting the generator even further from the house. Keep in mind which way the winds blow, because even if there aren't any leaks, the exhaust from internal combustion engines is not benign. The further away it is, the less noise, and the less chance exhaust gases or leaks will reach the house. I assume you will be putting it in some sort of weather protective shed. Make the shed as sound proof as possible because the noise pollution from a generator will probably cause you more headaches than any propane leaks. As a lister said, propane and other hydrocarbon gases certainly can be the cause of hidden problems for people, especially those who are chemically sensitive. However, by keeping it all well away from the house I think you will be ok. Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 23 13:54:37 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA17286 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:54:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09502; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:47:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:40:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA08912 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:40:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from oak (caroldag@oak.liii.com [198.207.193.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA08908 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:40:42 -0500 (EST) From: "Carol D'Agostino" Received: by oak (8.8.6/8.8.5) id SAA28105; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:42:19 GMT Message-Id: <199902231842.SAA28105@oak> Subject: Re: GBlist: Propane/backup? To: rnn@rnn.com (Renewable News Network) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:42:17 -0500 (EST) Cc: caroldag@liii.com, herector@paltech.com, rmd@rnn.com, greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: from "Renewable News Network" at Feb 22, 99 11:42:45 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi Ross, > Thanks for your interest in helping me research my question about the safety of propane. Following are my answers to your questions: > Why propane? ...as we might ask. I want it to backup a gas/electric heating system. Gasoline is out of the question for many obvious reasons. I wanted to be prepared for normal short outages due to storms, etc., plus, in addition, to be somewhat prepared in case Y2K turns out to be a problem. After Y2K has settled down, I would like to switch the generator to natural gas, which really is my first choice, but if something happens to gas, I have no backup. Hope this makes sense. > If the propane system is the backup, what are the main energy sources and > systems? Electricity, natural gas, a gas-fired boiler/hotwater system. > > What is the load on the backup system? How much, how often, peak I have a Generac II 8,000 watt home standby generator. Which is plenty to supply basic needs: heat, cooking, light on a conservative basis. The generator is already set up in the backyard, about 30 ft or 40 ft from the house. I'm intending to lease two 100 gal. propane tanks, set up about 20 ft away from the generator and 30 to 40 ft. away from the house. I have observed and will observe all zoning requirements and licenses and permits. Since I am sensitive to propane, among other chemicals, will this set up protect me against being exposed to propane, either while they are filling the tanks (does a lot of vapor escape?) or if, worst case scenario, if there is a small spill? How quickly does propane dissapate? I understand it is pretty stable. So how long does propane gas hang around? Thank you for your help, Carol caroldag@liii.com > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 23 16:59:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA22774 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:59:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA23039; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:52:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:46:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22085 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:46:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22074 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:46:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA23667; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:44:30 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:44:30 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Courtright To: Gary Anderson cc: deblombard@swinter.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Solar source fiberoptic light pipes In-Reply-To: <19990223165041.5311.rocketmail@send106.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Gary Anderson wrote: > I seem to recall seeing something within the past several years in > Popular Science magazine about solar source fiberoptic light pipes. I > checked the Popular Science web site, but unfortunately their > primitive search function could not find the article. Also tried > several other web searches without luck. Try www.solatube.com/htm/mainmenu.html I think that's the one that was in PS not too long ago. However, it's NOT fiberoptics, it's based on highly-reflective materials. -|//*Alan Courtright*\\|= Poulsbo, WA acourtri@krl.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 23 16:59:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA22783 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:59:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA23037; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:52:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:47:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22177 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:47:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22166 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:47:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from myrtle.rtpnc.epa.gov by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26439) with ESMTP id <0F7M00J9WM3CUC@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26438) with SMTP id <0F7M00DH1M1Q7M@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:22:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:22:16 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:13:25 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: home heating alternatives -Reply To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk One place you could start is the Home Energy Saver web site at http://eande.lbl.gov/hes/ It will allow you to model some different scenarios, although I don't know how well it does with radiant heat. Give it a shot, and send in your comments to the developers. Steve O. >>> Alan Courtright 02/23/99 11:20am >>> Can anybody here steer me to someplace where I can find truly legitimate cost comparisons (or charts to calculate, based on local costs of propane, electricity, and oil) for various methods of home heating? Every source I've been able to uncover so far on the Web has been suspect: charts by oil dealers, power companies, natural gas suppliers, etc. Opinions on the relative greenness of the various heat sources would also be very welcome. I live in the Pacific Northwest, where electricity is currently cheap. Natural gas is not an option where we'll be building. The choice has to be between oil, propane, and eletricity. We will NOT be using forced air heat; I hate it. Opinions on pluses and minuses of the various heat sources (e.g. water vapor generation by gas heating sources) would also be welcome. Radiant floor heating would be preferred from the comfort standpoint. I know there's at least one outfit that builds an electric, as opposed to a hot water, radiant system--but of course they make no mention of EMFs; any opinions on such here? Yeah, I know; it'd take several books to cover the subject properly, and nobody here is likely to want to write one overnight. But being steered to books, articles, abstracts, web sites, pamphlets, whatever, would be almost as good. -|//*Alan Courtright*\\|= Poulsbo, WA acourtri@krl.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 23 16:59:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA22781 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:59:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA23048; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:52:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:47:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22187 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:47:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22171 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:47:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from myrtle.rtpnc.epa.gov by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26439) with ESMTP id <0F7M00GWBLWCC0@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26438) with SMTP id <0F7M00DCWLUM7M@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:18:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:18:07 -0500 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:09:20 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: Payne gas furnace failure -Reply To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk The constant cycling by the limit switch can also be caused by a grossly oversized unit in combination with inadequate ductwork. (Duct leakage would actually help in that situation!) If the limit switch were to malfunction and not shut down the furnace when it started to overheat, it could cause many big, big problems. As we all know and preach here on this list, it's the system that needs to be checked--not just the thingy that seems to not be working. Steve O. >>> Thomas Phillips 02/22/99 01:31pm >>> Dear GB listers, et al: We just received a call re: Payne gas furnaces in a 10-12 year old development of single family homes causing a house fire in one home and melted wiring in another. The units seem to be cycling on & off constantly, suggesting faulty design or installation of the heat limit switch. Heat exchanger failure or backdrafting/spillage could be occurring also, but no CO symptoms or moisture problems have been reported so far. Some owners are replacing the entire furnace, while others are spending several hundred dollars to repair/modify the furnace. I don't have any more info yet. This could be a more widespread problem that is going undetected. Payne was apparently bought a while back by another manufacturer. Does anyone have any info on recalls or corrective actions for this problem? Payne did not show up in searching the CPSC site. TIA, Tom Phillips ---------- Thomas J. Phillips CARB/RD, 2020 L St., POB 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 916.322.7145/4357 FAX IAQ guidelines: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor/indoor.htm Research summaries: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor/resnotes.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 23 17:32:19 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA23727 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:32:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA25389; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:24:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:20:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24896 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:19:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24884 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:19:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from fox (tmanney@fox.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.11]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1/mailhub+tar) with ESMTP id QAA21211; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:21:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost by fox (8.8.8+Sun/1.34) id QAA07876; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:21:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:21:42 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Manney X-Sender: tmanney@fox.ksu.ksu.edu To: "Carol D'Agostino" cc: Renewable News Network , herector@paltech.com, rmd@rnn.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Propane/backup? In-Reply-To: <199902231842.SAA28105@oak> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Tom Manney tmanney@ksu.edu Dept. of Physics & Division of Biology Kansas State University GENE Web site: http://www.phys.ksu.edu/gene On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Carol D'Agostino wrote: > > Since I am sensitive to propane, among other chemicals, will > this set up protect me against being exposed to propane, either > while they are filling the tanks (does a lot of vapor escape?) > or if, worst case scenario, if there is a small spill? How > quickly does propane dissapate? I understand it is pretty > stable. So how long does propane gas hang around? > I can comment on this. For regular service it depends on the operator filling the tank. If he/she is careful, there is very little escape and it dissipates quickly if there is any wind. But when a new tank is filled for the first time it is necessary to flush all the air out with propane, which can vent a significant amount (based on smell). Plan it for a windy day and be someplace else. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Feb 23 23:15:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA29513 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA14346; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:07:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:03:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA13988 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:03:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA13984 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:03:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA04411; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:01:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:01:15 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Courtright To: STEPHEN OFFUTT cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: home heating alternatives -Reply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, STEPHEN OFFUTT wrote: > One place you could start is the Home Energy Saver web site at > http://eande.lbl.gov/hes/ > > It will allow you to model some different scenarios, although I don't > know how well it does with radiant heat. Give it a shot, and send in > your comments to the developers. Thanks much, Steve; I'll go look at that site pronto. Could be what I'm looking for. -|//*Alan Courtright*\\|= Poulsbo, WA acourtri@krl.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 24 17:02:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA18469 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA05686; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:55:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:49:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05132 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:48:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ham.nw.verio.net (ham.nw.verio.net [204.200.239.254]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05127 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:48:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp10.whatcom.pacificrim.net ([199.236.227.10] helo=[199.236.227.149]) by ham.nw.verio.net with smtp (Exim 2.05 #3) id 10FmCB-0003w2-00; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:50:20 -0800 X-Sender: rdubrow1@mail.pacificrim.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: rdubrow1@pacificrim.net (Rick Dubrow) Subject: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:50:20 -0800 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I've got a dishwasher AND a conscience. Are these mutually exclusive? Anyone know about whether one typically uses more, or less, hot water to clean a load of dishes by hand or by machine???? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 24 17:52:04 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA19935 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:52:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA08778; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:44:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:40:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA08302 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:40:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA08270 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:39:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-07.netmeg.net [208.139.83.70]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA30717; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:41:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36D4804B.8BD49681@swinter.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:42:19 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rick Dubrow CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk try using a compact dishwasher. See: http://www.energyvic.vic.gov.au/awards/majawd98.htm#Innovation debra lombard http://home.earthlink.net/~dlombard Rick Dubrow wrote: > I've got a dishwasher AND a conscience. Are these mutually exclusive? > > Anyone know about whether one typically uses more, or less, hot water to > clean a load of dishes by hand or by machine???? > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 24 19:43:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA21720 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:43:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA15458; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:35:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:31:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA15133 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:31:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA15129 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:31:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA29238; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:29:27 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:29:27 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Courtright To: Rick Dubrow cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Rick Dubrow wrote: > I've got a dishwasher AND a conscience. Are these mutually exclusive? > > Anyone know about whether one typically uses more, or less, hot water to > clean a load of dishes by hand or by machine???? Read recently (which I know isn't proof, by any means) that the dishwasher uses less. Sorry, can't cite the source. -|//*Alan Courtright*\\|= Poulsbo, WA acourtri@krl.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 24 20:14:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA22151 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:14:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA17145; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:07:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:02:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA16737 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:02:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA16733 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:02:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from 1Cust243.tnt11.nyc3.da.uu.net (1Cust243.tnt11.nyc3.da.uu.net [153.37.134.243]) by harrier.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA27086; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:04:41 -0800 (PST) From: wliebold@earthlink.net (Warren Liebold) To: rdubrow1@pacificrim.net (Rick Dubrow) Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 01:01:37 GMT Reply-To: wliebold@earthlink.net Message-ID: <36d5a0c2.2814408@mail.earthlink.net> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id UAA16734 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk A dishwasher uses less as long as you use it for full, or close-to-full loads. Warren Liebold On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:50:20 -0800, you wrote: >I've got a dishwasher AND a conscience. Are these mutually exclusive? > >Anyone know about whether one typically uses more, or less, hot water to >clean a load of dishes by hand or by machine???? > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 24 21:22:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA23005 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:22:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA20973; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:15:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:11:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20581 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:10:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20577 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:10:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip6.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.25]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA122 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:15:40 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990224212108.007c9340@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:21:08 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Rick: Don't forget the primary mission here, namely to sanitize eating ware. The dishwasher can deliver water at temperatures well above skin tolerance. A few years ago, a good friend managed to contract all kinds of diseases while living in a cold water flat in Peru... she was convinced that it was due to washing dishes in cold water. ... Harry At 01:50 PM 2/24/99 -0800, Rick Dubrow wrote: >I've got a dishwasher AND a conscience. Are these mutually exclusive? > >Anyone know about whether one typically uses more, or less, hot water to >clean a load of dishes by hand or by machine???? > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Feb 24 22:39:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA24008 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:39:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24806; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:32:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:28:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA24486 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:28:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24482 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:28:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (STD1.2/BZS-8-1.0) id WAA27275; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA28833; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:30:08 -0500 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:30:08 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Rick Dubrow Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I've read a full machine uses less hot water; but if you were using energy-free solar hot water, it really wouldn't make any difference. On Wed, 24 Feb 1999, Rick Dubrow wrote: > I've got a dishwasher AND a conscience. Are these mutually exclusive? > > Anyone know about whether one typically uses more, or less, hot water to > clean a load of dishes by hand or by machine???? > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 02:57:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA27413 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:57:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA05376; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:50:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:46:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA05069 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:46:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.foxinternet.net (mail1.foxinternet.net [208.8.213.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA05065 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:46:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from foxinternet.net ([208.8.211.123]) by mail1.foxinternet.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-32329U10000L100S10000) with ESMTP id AAA235 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:40:21 -0800 Message-ID: <36D5004A.CCF2C6E5@foxinternet.net> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:48:27 -0800 From: Keith Hoffman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? References: <199902250700.CAA03171@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Consumer Reports did a writeup sometime in the year from May 97-May 98 (pretty sure it would be in that range, give or take) on which dishwashers were most efficient, how much each used. As I recall, there were a couple that came in significantly lower in usage than the others. I recall 8 g. for a load for the semi-efficient ones ? Anyways, CR obviously doesn't cover any fringe products, but it was interesting from a mainstream point of view. -- Keith Hoffman 206-764-9366 keithhoffman22@foxinternet.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 03:16:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA27568 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:16:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA06059; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:09:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:05:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA05683 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:05:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from idefix.arch.chalmers.se (idefix.arch.chalmers.se [129.16.160.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA05679 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:05:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from stefan (a82.arch.chalmers.se [129.16.162.106]) by idefix.arch.chalmers.se (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA03293 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:07:15 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990225090159.0076c4c8@arch.chalmers.se> X-Sender: wallner@arch.chalmers.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:02:00 +0100 To: From: Stefan Wallner Subject: Re: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 13.50 1999-02-24 -0800, Rick Dubrow wrote: >I've got a dishwasher AND a conscience. Are these mutually exclusive? > >Anyone know about whether one typically uses more, or less, hot water to >clean a load of dishes by hand or by machine???? I'm sorry but it is the wrong question. It should be: How much energy and non-renewable resources can we use in our country per person without crossing the limits of our just environmental space? Like the old saying: What would happen if every chinese had the economical possibility to by as much cars (read: technical garbage) as an average american or european? Use of water cleaning by hand differ depending on how you do it and if you use fresh water or recycled and how you heat it. Use of material to manufacture the dish-washer is another aspect of ecological sustainability seldom taken seriously. Kind regards Stefan Wallner PhD Student ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Chalmers University of Technology telephone +46 31 772 23 78 Department of Building Design telefax +46 31 772 23 71 S-412 96 Gothenburg, Sweden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 03:37:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA27701 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:37:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA07057; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:29:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:26:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA06844 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:25:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA06840 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:25:49 -0500 (EST) From: DBunnII@aol.com Received: from DBunnII@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id 2YVOa23166 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:26:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:26:19 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: TimberTech Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone have any experience with the product TimberTech. It is a product from Crane Plastics Company that is used for decks. It is being proposed for use on the decks of a cohousing community which I am involved with in Fort Collins, Colorado. Don Bunn II Sustainable Homescapes Fort Collins, Colorado ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 05:15:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA28835 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 05:15:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA09627; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 05:07:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 05:03:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA09329 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 05:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA09325 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 05:03:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from which.net ([194.168.101.64]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA21120 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:11:40 +0000 Message-ID: <36D50A21.517C77D7@which.net> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:30:25 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Re Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Do you have the manual for the machine and does it state how much water it uses?. If not can you ask the manufacturer? I am sure they're not all the same. Why not wash a normal load in the washer, then wash it again by hand to see how much you use. You can't beat a real life test. Let us know how they compare. Malcolm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 06:21:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA29272 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:21:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA11524; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:13:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:07:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA11028 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:07:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA11022 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:07:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.198.81.206] (pm1a1.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.97]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA10937; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:08:34 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) [209.198.81.206] from pm1a1.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.97] 207.136.199.97 Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:08:34 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: nmalin@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:10:37 -0500 To: DBunnII@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: TimberTech Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi Don, TimberTech is made with waste wood fiber, but with 100% virgin plastic. Since Crane Plastics is a vinyl siding manufacturer, the plastic is most likely PVC. Here's the blurb from the www.timbertech.com Web site: "Quite simply, TimberTech is an entirely new type of engineered composite material. Made from a combination of virgin plastics and filler materials including reclaimed sawdust,...." It's hard to see how a product like this would fit in a project with a name like yours. (Sustainable Homescapes) There are lots of decking products made from recycled plastics, and a few from wood-plastic composites. The most sophisticated of these, with lots of special railing and trim components, is SmartDeck. You can read EBN's review of this product, with cost info, on our Web site. That article also references some of the other options. http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Product_Reviews/SmartDeck.html good luck! Nadav >Does anyone have any experience with the product TimberTech. It is a product >from Crane Plastics Company that is used for decks. It is being proposed for >use on the decks of a cohousing community which I am involved with in Fort >Collins, Colorado. > >Don Bunn II >Sustainable Homescapes >Fort Collins, Colorado Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 06:21:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id GAA29274 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:21:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA11522; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:13:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:06:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA10990 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:06:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA10986 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:06:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.198.81.206] (pm1a1.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.97]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA10934; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:08:32 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) [209.198.81.206] from pm1a1.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.97] 207.136.199.97 Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:08:32 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: nmalin@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 05:58:06 -0500 To: Alan Courtright , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: home heating alternatives Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi Alan, Back in 1993 we did a fairly detailed article comparing the environmental and cost impacts of heating fuels: Heating Fuel Choices: Weighing the Alternatives EBN Vol. 2, No. 6 This is not one of the features that's posted on our Web site, so you'd have to order it as a back issue ($12), or get our E Build Library CD, with all back issues ($149). For the cost part, the basic calculations are pretty simple. You just need to know the heat content of each fuel, the efficiency of your heater, and cost per unit of fuel. It get trickier when you start to factor in real-world variables like duct losses and electricity used by furnaces. Good luck! Nadav Malin At 8:20 AM -0800 2/23/99, Alan Courtright wrote: >Can anybody here steer me to someplace where I can find truly legitimate >cost comparisons (or charts to calculate, based on local costs of propane, >electricity, and oil) for various methods of home heating? Every source >I've been able to uncover so far on the Web has been suspect: charts by >oil dealers, power companies, natural gas suppliers, etc. > >Opinions on the relative greenness of the various heat sources would also >be very welcome. I live in the Pacific Northwest, where electricity is >currently cheap. Natural gas is not an option where we'll be building. >The choice has to be between oil, propane, and eletricity. We will NOT be >using forced air heat; I hate it. > >Opinions on pluses and minuses of the various heat sources (e.g. water >vapor generation by gas heating sources) would also be welcome. > >Radiant floor heating would be preferred from the comfort standpoint. I >know there's at least one outfit that builds an electric, as opposed to a >hot water, radiant system--but of course they make no mention of EMFs; any >opinions on such here? > >Yeah, I know; it'd take several books to cover the subject properly, and >nobody here is likely to want to write one overnight. But being steered >to books, articles, abstracts, web sites, pamphlets, whatever, would be >almost as good. > -|//*Alan Courtright*\\|= > Poulsbo, WA > acourtri@krl.org > > > > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 08:12:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA02250 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:12:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA14897; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:05:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:01:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA14610 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:01:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.68]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA14606 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:01:20 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Received: from IMSHAPIRO@aol.com by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id XJNVa03463; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:01:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <583853f8.36d549b3@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:01:39 EST To: rdubrow1@pacificrim.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 70 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I believe there was an authoritative study on this, published in the proceedings of the IATC (International Appliance Technology Conference) from the spring of 1990, and I think it confirmed what has already been said on the thread - full dishwashers use less energy. I have the paper buried somewhere if of further interest. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 108 South Albany Street, Suite 8 Ithaca, NY 14850 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX imshapiro@aol.com "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 08:54:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA03591 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:54:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA16595; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:47:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:43:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA16276 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:43:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (cdrom.nahbrc.org [38.201.56.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA16272 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:43:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM by rcpublic1.NAHBRC.COM (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ma092104 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:33:59 -0500 From: "Peter Yost" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:44:59 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: rain water harvesting X-Info: NT Mail Server Message-Id: <16335975008248@NAHBRC.ORG> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I am looking for product sources for very simple rain water catchment--basically just barrels hooked up to downspouts with a fitting outlet for standard water hose. I have searched the web and have not found any companies that make these barrels, although I have seen them pictured on at least one water conservation site. Any help? Thanks. DON'T MISS THE 1ST ANNUAL NATIONAL GREEN BUILDING CONFERENCE. CHECK OUR WEB SITE FOR COMPLETE INFORMATION. Peter Yost pyost@nahbrc.org 301-249-4000 x542 http://www.nahbrc.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 09:07:47 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04204 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17870; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:00:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:54:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17000 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA16994 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:54:34 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ409485; Thu, 25 Feb 99 06:56:22 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA08290; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:56:04 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:56:03 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Peter Yost Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: rain water harvesting In-Reply-To: <16335975008248@NAHBRC.ORG> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Peter: Further to your request, one of the rainbarrels we use are made by Scepter and sold through Revy in Canada. It is one of the best on the market at this time. Overflow (garden hose) goes to cistern (in our case) and garden. It is made from recycled plastic. This is our second generation model. Since we do not use city water (or sewage) lines, we rely on rainwater harvesting for all potable water (10% of total).If this is of interest, and you do not make progress elsewhere, I will dig up specific names and phone numbers. ***************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ######################################################### On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Peter Yost wrote: > > I am looking for product sources for very simple rain water > catchment--basically just barrels hooked up to downspouts with a > fitting outlet for standard water hose. > > I have searched the web and have not found any companies that make > these barrels, although I have seen them pictured on at least one > water conservation site. Any help? > > Thanks. > DON'T MISS THE 1ST ANNUAL NATIONAL GREEN BUILDING CONFERENCE. > CHECK OUR WEB SITE FOR COMPLETE INFORMATION. > Peter Yost > pyost@nahbrc.org > 301-249-4000 x542 > http://www.nahbrc.org > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 09:08:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04230 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:08:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17962; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:00:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:55:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17074 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:55:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from idefix.arch.chalmers.se (idefix.arch.chalmers.se [129.16.160.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17066 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:55:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from stefan (a82.arch.chalmers.se [129.16.162.106]) by idefix.arch.chalmers.se (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA03577 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:57:09 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990225145153.0068efa8@arch.chalmers.se> X-Sender: wallner@arch.chalmers.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:51:54 +0100 To: From: Stefan Wallner Subject: GBlist: search for craftsmen in Argentina Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi listmembers I have a architect colleague who from time to time spends her time in Cordoba, Argentina, meditating with her Zen Buddhist friends. They are trying to build a meditation centre and they want it to be as ecological as possible and built with local material. However lack of knowledge makes it difficult and their first buildings were built of concrete and steel by a local builder. They want to know if they can find local craftsmen with experience of building with clay or earth, which once used to be common local materials. If anybody knows of such a craftsman near Cordoba in Argentina, please let me know. Kind regards Stefan Wallner PhD Student ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Chalmers University of Technology telephone +46 31 772 23 78 Department of Building Design telefax +46 31 772 23 71 S-412 96 Gothenburg, Sweden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 09:11:07 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04336 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:11:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA18164; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:03:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:58:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17468 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:58:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.mindspring.com (smtp1.mindspring.com [207.69.200.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17464 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:58:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from kbell (pool-207-205-130-177.atln.grid.net [207.205.130.177]) by smtp1.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA07245; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:59:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <008401be60c7$8cac19c0$b182cdcf@kbell> From: "Karlene" To: "Peter Yost" , Subject: Re: GBlist: rain water harvesting Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:02:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk You can usually get food-grade barrels second hand --- I see them listed in the local shopper paper. Some are plastic, some are metal - most have lids & some have spouts. Different sizes. Good luck. Karlene -----Original Message----- From: Peter Yost To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 8:44 AM Subject: GBlist: rain water harvesting I am looking for product sources for very simple rain water catchment--basically just barrels hooked up to downspouts with a fitting outlet for standard water hose. I have searched the web and have not found any companies that make these barrels, although I have seen them pictured on at least one water conservation site. Any help? Thanks. DON'T MISS THE 1ST ANNUAL NATIONAL GREEN BUILDING CONFERENCE. CHECK OUR WEB SITE FOR COMPLETE INFORMATION. Peter Yost pyost@nahbrc.org 301-249-4000 x542 http://www.nahbrc.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 09:24:53 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA04671 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19060; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:17:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:12:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18509 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from idefix.arch.chalmers.se (idefix.arch.chalmers.se [129.16.160.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18505 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:11:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from stefan (a82.arch.chalmers.se [129.16.162.106]) by idefix.arch.chalmers.se (2.5 Build 2639 (Berkeley 8.8.6)/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA03593; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:13:54 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19990225150838.0068eef8@arch.chalmers.se> X-Sender: wallner@arch.chalmers.se X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:08:39 +0100 To: "Peter Yost" , From: Stefan Wallner Subject: Re: GBlist: rain water harvesting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id JAA18506 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 08.44 1999-02-25 +0000, Peter Yost wrote: >I am looking for product sources for very simple rain water >catchment--basically just barrels hooked up to downspouts with a >fitting outlet for standard water hose. Hi I don't know if this will help you at all, but I know of a Norwegian simple system. You can find it at http://www.vera.no/PG/start_frameset.html but it's all in Norwegian. Maybe they can help you find an product closer to you if you mail or phone them: Vera Miljø A/S phone +47 33 42 01 00 or mail@vera.no Kind regards Stefan Wallner PhD Student ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Chalmers University of Technology telephone +46 31 772 23 78 Department of Building Design telefax +46 31 772 23 71 S-412 96 Gothenburg, Sweden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 09:33:59 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA05117 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:33:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA20286; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:26:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:22:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA19692 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from graytwo.jngray.com (mail.necollc.net [207.201.192.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA19688 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:22:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by ftp.jngray.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:24:00 -0500 Message-ID: <9C3855B267A6D211B8F900A0249A1760205BFF@ftp.jngray.com> From: David Vickers To: "'rdubrow1@pacificrim.net'" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:23:52 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk My understanding according to what I have read and seen is that even though you are paying for the electrical cost of operating the dishwasher, the savings in water makes up for it. > -----Original Message----- > From: rdubrow1@pacificrim.net [SMTP:rdubrow1@pacificrim.net] > Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 4:50 PM > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? > > I've got a dishwasher AND a conscience. Are these mutually exclusive? > > Anyone know about whether one typically uses more, or less, hot water to > clean a load of dishes by hand or by machine???? > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 09:54:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA05910 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:54:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA21844; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:47:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:42:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21464 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:42:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21460 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (STD1.2/BZS-8-1.0) id JAA24650; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:44:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA02584; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:44:17 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:44:16 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Stefan Wallner Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990225090159.0076c4c8@arch.chalmers.se> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This is a wonderful reply, in that, it exemplifies, perfectly, one of the difficulties we face, intelligent, but diversionary, over-intellectualization. We not only ignore the question to impertinently invent our own bloated set of questions, but then refuse to address our own redefinition of the problem. ...but then, what's a conscience for, if not to drive us crazy? "Enough questions, I want answers." -Ralph Waldo Emerson On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Stefan Wallner wrote: > At 13.50 1999-02-24 -0800, Rick Dubrow wrote: > >I've got a dishwasher AND a conscience. Are these mutually exclusive? > > > >Anyone know about whether one typically uses more, or less, hot water to > >clean a load of dishes by hand or by machine???? > > I'm sorry but it is the wrong question. It should be: How much energy and > non-renewable resources can we use in our country per person without > crossing the limits of our just environmental space? > Like the old saying: What would happen if every chinese had the economical > possibility to by as much cars (read: technical garbage) as an average > american or european? > Use of water cleaning by hand differ depending on how you do it and if you > use fresh water or recycled and how you heat it. > Use of material to manufacture the dish-washer is another aspect of > ecological sustainability seldom taken seriously. > > > Kind regards > > Stefan Wallner > PhD Student > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Chalmers University of Technology telephone +46 31 772 23 78 > Department of Building Design telefax +46 31 772 23 71 > S-412 96 Gothenburg, Sweden > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > Send press releases, announcements, and notices of interest to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 To receive the next edition of the Environmental Review, send, subscribe er-list, to ; for Solar Utilities info, send, subscribe solar_utilities ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 10:53:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08187 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:53:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25275; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:45:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:39:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA24721 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:38:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA24709 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:38:42 -0500 (EST) From: Patt1313@aol.com Received: from Patt1313@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id WMWWa20321; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:39:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <441d9e54.36d56e9c@aol.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:39:08 EST To: pyost@nahbrc.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, krishna@rdrop.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: rain water harvesting Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 84 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I have heard Ole Erson of Portland, OR, talk at Solar Energy Association of Oregon's annual conference on rainwater harvesting. His website has information on his work on that subject as well as others. I am sure that he would be willing to share information with you. Patt Bryan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 11:11:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA08748 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:11:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA26713; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:04:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:00:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA26334 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:00:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA26330 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:00:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25403; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:58:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:58:40 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Courtright To: Nadav Malin cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: home heating alternatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Nadav Malin wrote: > This is not one of the features that's posted on our Web site, so you'd > have to order it as a back issue ($12), or get our E Build Library CD, with > all back issues ($149). Thanks much, Nadav! I'll see if it's available on Interlibrary Loan here, and if not I may well order it. > For the cost part, the basic calculations are pretty simple. You just need > to know the heat content of each fuel, the efficiency of your heater, and > cost per unit of fuel. > > It get trickier when you start to factor in real-world variables like duct > losses and electricity used by furnaces. Since I don't plan to use ducts of any kind (I hate forced air heat) that eliminates one variable--but that still leaves out a whole bunch. What we need, obviously, is for somebody to build a house that incorporates every available heating option, so that they can be alternated and costs compared. Yah sure yu betcha, as they say around here. Since that ain't gonna happen, I'll take anything I can get. -|//*Alan Courtright*\\|= Poulsbo, WA acourtri@krl.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 11:25:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA09104 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:25:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27911; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:17:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:13:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27496 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:13:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27492 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:13:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA26623; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:11:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:11:28 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Courtright To: Peter Yost cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: rain water harvesting In-Reply-To: <16335975008248@NAHBRC.ORG> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Peter Yost wrote: > I am looking for product sources for very simple rain water > catchment--basically just barrels hooked up to downspouts with a > fitting outlet for standard water hose. The Real Goods Spring catalog shows such a sytem, on p. 51. The Web site is www.realgoods.com. -|//*Alan Courtright*\\|= Poulsbo, WA acourtri@krl.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 12:40:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA10926 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:40:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03433; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:33:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:27:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02822 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:27:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.gorge.net (mail.gorge.net [205.162.195.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02818 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:27:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from gorge.net ([208.14.145.220]) by mail.gorge.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-54909U8000L800S0V35) with ESMTP id AAA210 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:17:22 -0800 Message-ID: <36D5883A.EFA71D@gorge.net> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:28:26 -0800 From: Daniel Dancer Organization: ZeroCircles Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Propane waterheaters/generators Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Greetings....I'd very much love your suggestions. You've all been very helpful in answering my questions to this point and I thank you very much. I'm going to be building an off the grid home this summer and am wondering what folks feel about the efficiency and reliability of "instant on" hot water heaters vs. a small, well insulated, regular propane hot water heater. I'm buiding an earth sheltered garage with a two story studio apartment next to it. I was thinking about putting the propane heater and my back-up propane generator in the back corner of the garage abutting the apartment and venting them up both up and at a slight angle through the apartment roof. Will this work? Many Thanks, Daniel Dancer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 14:31:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13600 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:31:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA12859; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:24:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:19:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA12049 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:19:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA12036; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:19:25 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ539314; Thu, 25 Feb 99 12:20:44 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA111918; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:19:39 -0700 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:19:39 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Peter Yost Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: rain water harvesting In-Reply-To: <21033281208825@NAHBRC.ORG> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk For those inquiring re: contact for our rain barrel that has connections to garden hoses and underground pipes to cistern, please contact: Glenn Stokes , for further info on closest retailer that sells their "Rainsaver" Rainwater storage module" (recycled plastic). Jorg Ostrowski _________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Peter Yost wrote: > > Jorg - thanks for your reply. I have tried to track down on the > internet using the names Scepter and Revy with no "hits". When you > get a chance, contact info for the system you have would be > appreciated. Thanks Peter > DON'T MISS THE 1ST ANNUAL NATIONAL GREEN BUILDING CONFERENCE. > CHECK OUR WEB SITE FOR COMPLETE INFORMATION. > Peter Yost > pyost@nahbrc.org > 301-249-4000 x542 > http://www.nahbrc.org > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 14:42:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13816 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:42:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA13999; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:33:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:29:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA13517 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:29:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (root@hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.220]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA13505 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:29:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin056.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.66]) by hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/) with SMTP id LAA06646 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:31:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36D5A46D.71EB@uidaho.edu> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:28:45 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: ABS windows Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk As an alternative to PVC window frames, I'm considering a manufacturer of extruded, foam-injected non-PVC (ABS according to salesperson) frames that yield even greater thermal performance. The specific plastic used is "an advanced terpolymer of acrylic-styrene-acrylonitrile." The salesperson never had anyone question the stability of the plastic wrt off-gassing/IAQ and needs to get back to me, but I'd thought I'd pose the question to this list. The manufacturer is McVay Brothers in Spokane, WA. Kurt Rathmann Moscow, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 15:14:37 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA14557 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:14:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16474; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:07:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:01:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15897 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:01:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15877 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:01:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from earthlink.net (pool001-max11.ds12-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net [209.178.14.201]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19870; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:02:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36D5AB78.68B80010@earthlink.net> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:58:48 -0800 From: "Timothy D. Rosenfeld" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, Rick Dubrow Subject: Re: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? References: <199902250700.CAA03171@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk greenbuilding-digest wrote: > greenbuilding-digest Thursday, February 25 1999 Volume 02 : Number 500 > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:50:20 -0800 > From: rdubrow1@pacificrim.net (Rick Dubrow) > Subject: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? > > I've got a dishwasher AND a conscience. Are these mutually exclusive? > > Anyone know about whether one typically uses more, or less, hot water to > clean a load of dishes by hand or by machine???? Dear Rick: The answer to your question depends on several factors that only you can determine. How many dishes do you usually wash at a time? Do you leave the water running when you wash dishes by hand or partially fill your sink with some detergent. Do you have a low flow sink faucet? How old, and thus efficient is your dishwasher? Do you have one of the more efficient brands and models? Also, I assume your conscience extends to energy as well as water. Dishwashers use electricity both for the pumps and the heating elements. When you hand wash and hand or air dry your dishes, you save a lot of electricity. However, most dishwashers today allow you to skip the dry cycle where a lot of energy is used. Is your water heated by gas, electricity, or solar energy? If electricity, is it generated by coal, oil, nuclear or renewable energy? Here in California, and starting soon in several other states, you can buy electricity generated from non-polluting renewable resources. Although it may not be an issue for you, dishwashers do cost more because you are substituting electricity for your own elbow grease (that is, unless, you could be earning $$ instead of doing the dishes). It is logical that a full load in the dishwasher may use less water than handwashing, but again, that depends on how you hand wash or if the full load is every day or over a few days. If you rinse all the food stuck on the plates before you put them in the dishwasher because you only run it every few days or so, you've virtually washed them before washing them again. You may be using far more water than simply handwashing. Dishwashers are often used to sanitize dishes. But dishwashers generally have the "sani-cycle" as an option because it uses a lot of electricity to heat the water to a sanitizing temperature. If you have sick people in the house or a lot of kids prone to bringing colds home the sani-cycle is a good bet, but you're probably doing full loads anyway and the dishwasher is practical. If you have one, two or three people at home and you don't generate a lot of dishes, handwashing is probably a better bet except when a family member is ill. (The problem one person mentioned with 3rd world countries has more to do with parasites in unsafe water supplies and on raw food. Hopefully, that isn't an issue for you.) In summary, ask yourself what the goal is: 1. Use the dishwasher if you have a lot of dishes, hand wash if you have a few dishes (but don't leave the water running. There are great little faucet aerators with on-off levers that allow you to turn the water on and off quickly at the spout). 2. Use the dishwasher's sani-cycle only when someone is sick. 3. Whether washing by hand or machine, air drying saves energy. 4. Use non-toxic biodegradable cleaning products in the sink and the dishwasher. 5. Don't drive yourself crazy. Do whatever makes your life a little less stressful. That's important too. The fact that you are a conscientious person means you'll be doing your part for the world on a number of fronts. Sorry to be longwinded but I hope this helps. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 18:19:14 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA18670 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA28292; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:11:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:06:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27942 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:06:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.privat.kkf.net (privat.kkf.net [212.63.32.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27937 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:06:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from alex (mi-dial62.privat.kkf.net [212.63.37.62]) by mail.privat.kkf.net (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id AAA02179 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:08:30 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199902252308.AAA02179@mail.privat.kkf.net> From: "alexander neumann" To: "greenbuilding" Subject: Re: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:01:55 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > Also, I assume your conscience extends to energy as well as water. Dishwashers > use electricity both for the pumps and the heating elements. We got our dishwasher hooked up to our natural gas hot water heater, which seems to be no problem with most fairly new ones. This is saving on the energy bill, and I´m very sure it is also saving on overall CO2 emission. Yours, Alex ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 20:35:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA20632 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA17434; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:27:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:22:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA16178 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA16155 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:22:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (STD1.2/BZS-8-1.0) id UAA08633; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:24:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA15857; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:24:21 -0500 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:24:21 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Alan Courtright Cc: Nadav Malin , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: home heating alternatives In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear Alan, One bit of data, in this calculation, that only you can most easily and accurately provide, is the cost per purchased fuel unit at your site: Such fuel associated costs might be labeled: $/therm of gas (100,000Btus/therm), $/gallon of #2 oil delivered (140,000Btus/gallon), $/Kwh (3,412Btus/Kwh ?), $/cord firewood (80-120,000Btus/cord ?), $/Square Foot of Solar Aperature (100,000Btus/SF) The paraenthetical Btu numbers give you a basis for comparison, before efficiency losses - except for the solar number, which is pretty much the effective end use equivalent gain. And since the fuel cost of the solar thermal systems would be, in fact, zero; one would want to estimate an installation and maintenance cost for the solar part, and compare that initial expense against the attributable displaced fuel, or the savings, over time - and then project how long it would take to break even. Yours truly, Ross On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Alan Courtright wrote: > On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Nadav Malin wrote: > > > For the cost part, the basic calculations are pretty simple. You just need > > to know the heat content of each fuel, the efficiency of your heater, and > > cost per unit of fuel. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 20:44:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA20789 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:44:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA18847; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:37:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:33:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA18067 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:32:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.email.msn.com (cpimssmtpu01.email.msn.com [207.46.181.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA18058 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:32:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from h9qjy - 208.251.202.115 by email.msn.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:34:27 -0800 Message-ID: <004d01be6128$73c48e40$73cafbd0@h9qjy> From: "Patti" To: "Greenbuilding" Subject: Re: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:36:04 -0800 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk There was a article in the October 1996 issue of "Today's Homeowner" (Times Mirror Magazines, Inc.) titled: "How To Choose A Dishwasher." Some of the relevant highlights of that article: "The average dishwasher uses about half the electricity models did in 1972. In fact, Federal law now limits American-made dishwashers to just 2.17 kilowatt-hours of electricity per wash cycle, and requires all units to have an air-dry option..." "...American-made models typically use 6.5 gal. to 9 gal. of water for a normal cycle, a significant drop from the 10.8 gal. figure of machines in 1987. European models trim that to about 5 gal. to 8 gal...." They also included an extensive list of models, prices and features of dishwashers available at that time. There are now many more energy efficient models available then there were in 1996, but here are the annual costs of 7 of the 32 models from their October 1996 list which might be of interest: General Electric GSD4020 8.6 gal. (per wash) $61/$34 (gas/elec annual operating cost) Jenn-Air DW711 9 gal. $59/$30 Kenmore 15725 6.5 gal. $57/$34 General Electric GSD4420 6.5 gal. $46/$26 Miele 8855C 5 gal. $49/33 Asko 1475 4.6 gal. $36/$18 Asko 1355 4.6 gal. $35/NA The purchase price of the dishwashers listed ranged from $299 to $1799 (Oct 1996 list prices). In general, the less expensive dishwashers ($200-$399) where the costliest to operate (used the most water and energy). Dishwashers with the lowest operating costs started at around $500 and went up from there. The higher priced models were also the quietest and offered the most features in terms of number of cycles, rack flexibility and sound-proofing. Looking at the specs for the Asko dishwashers, it appears to me that I would save water by using their dishwasher. I probably use more than four-gallons to fill the sink and that doesn't include what I use to rinse the dishes. Since our dishwasher broke a few months ago, I think I'll see just how much water I'm now using to do them by hand. Also, there is a new dishwasher on the market that is contained in two "drawers." I haven't seen the specs on it, but it's designed for smaller families. The idea is to use one drawer for everyday use, since it takes fewer dishes to load a drawer to capacity, but you still have a second drawer for the times you entertain or when you want to have two types of washes (heavy duty or light, etc.). I don't know the cost, but it looks expensive. Pat pmeeks@msn.com >At 13.50 1999-02-24 -0800, Rick Dubrow wrote: >>I've got a dishwasher AND a conscience. Are these mutually exclusive? >> >>Anyone know about whether one typically uses more, or less, hot water to >>clean a load of dishes by hand or by machine???? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Feb 25 21:18:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA21304 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:18:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA26146; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:11:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:07:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA24907 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:07:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24894 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:06:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA07191; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:05:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:05:08 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Courtright To: Renewable News Network cc: Nadav Malin , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: home heating alternatives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Renewable News Network wrote: > One bit of data, in this calculation, that only you can most easily and > accurately provide, is the cost per purchased fuel unit at your site: Thanks much, Ross! I've saved your msg, and will see if I can do some figuring. I had to laugh, though, at the inclusion of solar; until this evening, we hadn't seen the sun for days and days! And in the winter, on average, that's not particularly unusual. -|//*Alan Courtright*\\|= Poulsbo, WA acourtri@krl.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 26 05:07:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA26746 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 05:07:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id EAA15288; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 04:59:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Feb 1999 04:55:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA14918 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 04:55:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA14901 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 04:54:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from which.net ([194.168.100.197]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA19633 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:03:19 +0000 Message-ID: <36D65F05.36609817@which.net> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:44:54 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: home heating alternatives Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Alan. You keep asking about lowest cost. The lowest cost does not necessarily identify a sustainable solution. This is a greenbuilding list on which people want to discuss sustainable solutions to building problems. The cheapest system to instal is electric heaters. The cheapest system to run is solar. Since you are subscribed to this list you must be already concerned for the environment. More insulation and air tightness will reduce both the size of the heating equipment and the long term fuel consumption. Go green young man. Malcolm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 26 09:20:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA29590 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:20:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23907; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:08:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:03:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA23610 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:03:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA23605 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:03:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D4DXLGRZ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:05:20 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 06:59:51 -0700 Subject: GBlist: EMF Fight Message-ID: <19990226.065952.3494.1.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <199902252308.AAA02179@mail.privat.kkf.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 11-15 From: Samantha L McDonald Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Many of you probably guessed this one already. I went to the community meeting re the Towers on Lookout Mountian last night and what i saw was quite disturbing and makes me rethink my role with helping the group: quote "it isnt that we are against the towers or digital TV- not that at all, just dont put them up HERE- or any other highly populated area" needless to say I am less fighting the towers now than wanting to help these people see what it is they are really saying- of course since i have not been an active participant as of yet- this could be interesting. They are the ones i will be focusing on rather than the group wanting to put up the towers. Thank you all for the words of assistance you did contribute, and if anyone has been here before i will gladly listen to your experiences. Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 26 10:05:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00803 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:05:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA26874; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:57:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:53:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26288 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:53:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26283 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:53:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id IAA10791 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:54:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-wa35-48.ix.netcom.com(207.220.42.48) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma010766; Fri Feb 26 08:54:23 1999 Message-ID: <001a01be6154$75a57f40$302adccf@upesi> From: "Russel DeLombard" To: "Green Building" Subject: Re: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 06:51:37 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On 26 Feb 1999 Patti wrote (in part): >Also, there is a new dishwasher on the market that is contained in two >"drawers." I haven't seen the specs on it, but it's designed for smaller >families. The idea is to use one drawer for everyday use, since it takes >fewer dishes to load a drawer to capacity, but you still have a second >drawer for the >times you entertain or when you want to have two types of washes (heavy duty >or light, etc.). I don't know the cost, but it looks expensive. "Dishdrawer" is manufactured by Fisher Paykel (NZ). Information on their products can be found at http://www.fisherpaykel.com/. Russel DeLombard, Architect Avatar Construction Inc. Box 11257 Bainbridge Island WA 98110 (206) 842-9350 Phone/FAX ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 26 10:50:26 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA01868 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:50:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29514; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:42:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:38:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28982 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:38:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.teleport.com (mail2.teleport.com [192.108.254.43]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28978 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:38:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 8494 invoked from network); 26 Feb 1999 15:40:25 -0000 Received: from i48-09-20.pdx.du.teleport.com (HELO u54hz) (216.26.4.20) by mail2.teleport.com with SMTP; 26 Feb 1999 15:40:25 -0000 Message-ID: <000601be619e$7b481080$14041ad8@u54hz> From: "Ed McNamara" To: "Russel DeLombard" , "Green Building" Subject: Re: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:41:29 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk The Frigidaire that I recently put in an old house I remodeled has a similar feature. It can be set - with the push of a button - to clean only the top rack or only the bottom rack. This setting uses 3.6 gallons per wash. Washing both racks on a short cycle uses 6.0 gallons. Both racks on a heavy cycle - pots and pans or those dishes that have been sitting for a week - uses 7.2 gallons. A nice, very quiet, fairly efficient machine for a very reasonable price. -----Original Message----- From: Russel DeLombard To: Green Building Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 7:01 AM Subject: Re: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? >On 26 Feb 1999 Patti wrote (in part): > >>Also, there is a new dishwasher on the market that is contained in two >>"drawers." I haven't seen the specs on it, but it's designed for smaller >>families. The idea is to use one drawer for everyday use, since it takes >>fewer dishes to load a drawer to capacity, but you still have a second >>drawer for the >>times you entertain or when you want to have two types of washes (heavy >duty >>or light, etc.). I don't know the cost, but it looks expensive. > >"Dishdrawer" is manufactured by Fisher Paykel (NZ). Information on their >products can be found at http://www.fisherpaykel.com/. > >Russel DeLombard, Architect >Avatar Construction Inc. >Box 11257 >Bainbridge Island WA 98110 >(206) 842-9350 Phone/FAX > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 26 11:14:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA02488 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:14:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01103; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:06:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:02:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA00690 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:02:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00686 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:02:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA21745; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:03:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-wa35-48.ix.netcom.com(207.220.42.48) by dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma021598; Fri Feb 26 10:03:11 1999 Message-ID: <005b01be615e$11a88730$302adccf@upesi> From: "Russel DeLombard" To: "Green Building" , Subject: Re: GBlist: home heating alternatives Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:00:24 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On 25 Feb 1999 Nadav writes (in part): (snip) >Back in 1993 we did a fairly detailed article comparing the environmental >and cost impacts of heating fuels: > >Heating Fuel Choices: Weighing the Alternatives > EBN Vol. 2, No. 6 > >This is not one of the features that's posted on our Web site, so you'd >have to order it as a back issue ($12), or get our E Build Library CD, with >all back issues ($149). (snip) Hi Alan, I have the EBN CD Nadav mentioned. Since we appear to be neighbors, I can snail you a printed copy of the article...assuming thats OK with EBN...if you send me your address. As the article stresses "Conservation and Solar are the Best Choices"... (well...since we are in the Pacific Northwest one out of two isn't bad:-) the first consideration should be energy conservation in the design and to provide for solar gain...when it's available. The issue of fuel cost becomes less significant as conservation measures improve. Regards Russel DeLombard, Architect Avatar Construction Inc. Box 11257 Bainbridge Island WA 98110 (206) 842-9350 Phone/FAX ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 26 12:21:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA04099 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:21:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA06522; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:14:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:09:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA06076 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:09:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA06071 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:09:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA24461; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:07:52 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:07:52 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Courtright To: "malcolm.scott@which.net" cc: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: home heating alternatives In-Reply-To: <36D65F05.36609817@which.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: > Alan. You keep asking about lowest cost. The lowest cost does not > necessarily identify a sustainable solution. This is a greenbuilding > list on which people want to discuss sustainable solutions to building > problems. The cheapest system to instal is electric heaters. The > cheapest system to run is solar. Since you are subscribed to this list > you must be already concerned for the environment. More insulation and > air tightness will reduce both the size of the heating equipment and the > long term fuel consumption. Go green young man. Wish I WERE young! But I've aged enough to consider it a given that "lowest cost" doesn't necessarily equate with lowest INITIAL cost. What I'm trying to come up with is good considered opinions re relative costs, including both pre-installation $ cost and mfg environmental costs, plus operating costs ditto. It appears to me that there's an awful lot of assumptions floating around concerning such factors, and I'm trying to dig underneath those assumptions a little. In the country at large, for example, it appears to be generally assumed that electrical heat is not "cost effective" from EITHER the $ or the green viewpoints, but I have yet to see convincing arguments that this is the case where I live, when considering such factors as oil spills, tanker construction and operation, pipeline construction, boiler construction, trucking costs for oil, and the myriad of other factors involved. Fortunately, I have time to dig. -|//*Alan Courtright*\\|= Poulsbo, WA acourtri@krl.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 26 13:32:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA05924 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:32:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA10895; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:23:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:19:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA10264 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:19:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from airmail.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.20.220]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA10229 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from arb.ca.gov ([146.114.11.17]) by airmail.arb.ca.gov (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA59C4; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:20:03 -0800 Message-ID: <36D6E6B9.BC9D922E@arb.ca.gov> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:23:53 -0800 From: "Thomas Phillips" Organization: CARB/RD, Indoor Air Quality and Personal Exposure Assessment Program X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST , IMSHAPIRO@aol.com Subject: GBlist: Cleaning dishes by dishwasher or by hand? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk IAN et al: Has anyone looked at the issue of water consumption by pre-rinsing the dishes? We use a full washer, but the mfr. recommends running the rinse cycle after each partial load to keep grunge from drying on and sticking forever. Instead, we just do a light sink rinse & brush by hand when loading -- I'm not confident that washers handle major grunge runoff very well over time. We may try the pre-rinse cycle some time. In either case, pre-rinsing probably only adds a few gallons per full wash cycle. A similar issue arises re: rinsing when hand-washing. Rinsing with a tub/half-sink of water can save a some water vs. rinsing by faucet only. Re: sanitation, we have not noticed a problem re: infectious disease transmission when handwashing at home for years previous, but this could be a problem in some countries or institutional settings. Of course, bacteria have been known to show up in our city's well water, much to the consternation of my lactobacillus cervesiae "experiments." By coincidence, our dishwasher has just bitten the dust after 10 years of service with no major maintenance problems. Not very impressive durability, unless one factors in hardwater stress. I just wish they had modular or recyclable dishwashers, like that proposed for fridge's recently, to maximize the re-use of the appliance. Yours truly, Tom, the Technical Advisor to Three Juvenile Dishwashing Technicians in Training -- Thomas J. Phillips CARB/RD, 2020 L St., POB 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 916.322.7145/4357 FAX IAQ guidelines: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor/indoor.htm Research summaries: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor/resnotes.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 26 13:44:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA06108 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:44:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA11944; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:37:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:33:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA11367 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA11352 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:32:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.105] (newhenyusr0-a105.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.105]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA20258; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:34:33 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:54:19 -0500 To: Greenbuilding discussion list From: CN Subject: GBlist: Propane waterheaters/generators Cc: Daniel Dancer Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Daniel, I've been through this issue often with friends who have off-grid houses, or are trying to save energy and money. My own house is off-grid so I use propane to heat domestic hot water. I decided to go with a small tank heater instead of an on-demand heater. My experience over the past 8 years living with the tank heater is that it may very well be more efficient in my situation as an on-demand heater. It also has several other advantages. I have a 6-gallon through the wall venting heater designed for RV's. They cost less than $300. I have added extra insulation to the tank (reflectix because the initial fiberglass insulation that came with it ended up being an ant nest). I do not currently have a washing machine, dishwasher, or bath tub. I have found that for showers and sink use, I never run out of hot water in a one person household. With guests, showers have to be short or staggered by about 20 minutes in order for it to recover. But that has never been a problem. When hot water is not being drawn off from the tank, the pilot light alone provides sufficient heat to keep it at it's set temperature. Therefore, for this small, well insulated tank, I have essentially no stand-by losses. In comparison to on-demand heaters which also require a pilot light, there should be very little difference in overall efficiency between the two types. I'm assuming that both types transfer heat to the water equally well, which I believe is a reasonable assumption. Perhaps there are others on this list who know more about this. My annual propane cost, which includes a gas stove and gas refrigerator, is less than $100 a year. Probably, the hot water heater only accounts for about half of this. I have a low flow shower head with a built in on/off switch which I use to conserve water while soaping up. I use less than 10 gallons of water (mix of hot and cold) even for a pleasantly long shower. The heater is located in the bathroom so that the small amount of heat lost by the tank keeps the bathroom warm so that I don't have to run hot water in the shower for several minutes to heat the air in the bathroom. The bathroom is also very well insulated and serves as my freeze-free zone when I leave my wood-heated house for more than a day in the winter time. At those times I turn a valve to allow the hot water heater to thermosiphon hot water through a loop of copper pipe which acts as a radiator for keeping the bathroom warm. I live in northern New York where it gets cold in winter, and the heating season is often 9 months long. Where do you live? In heating climates like mine, there is rarely such a thing as standby losses from a tank heater, as long as the tank is located somewhere in the house where additional heat can be used. If you put a tank in a garage, then the standby losses will just heat your garage, which probably isn't much use. In that case, or in warm climates, on-demand heaters may be more efficient. However, there are other reason's I chose a tank heater instead of an on-demand heater. All of the smaller on-demand heaters, and all but the most expensive larger ones, do not in my opinion do a good job modulating heat output when the flow rate of water changes. Every time I use one I spend a lot of time either being scalded or freezing. And that doesn't even consider what happens if someone else in the house starts drawing hot water. Even if you figure out the quirks of getting on-demand heaters to work, your guests won't. The on/off shower heads would be almost impossible to use with these poorly modulated on-demand heaters. You basically have to keep the flow rate constant to have any hope of getting a shower at a comfortable temperature. Since my on/off valve allows me to cut my hot water use by 30 to 50%, I believe my overall system is far more efficient using the tank heater rather than an on-demand heater. What's more, I save a lot of water. And, even the smallest propane on-demand heaters are much more expensive than tank heaters. I just heard a rumour yesterday that there are new Aquastar brand on-demand heater models which do a better job of modulating heater output, but before spending many hundreds of dollars, I'd want to actually try one before believing it. The Aquastar and Paloma models I've used all suffered from poor modulation. Also, the Targa brand on-demand heaters are supposed to actually do an excellent job of modulating output, but they cost around a thousand dollars and require electricity to operate, so they might not be a good choice for an off-grid house. I don't know much about the relative reliabilities and life-times of tank versus on-demand heaters. The advertising for on-demand heaters always claims they are more efficient, but I think they are comparing them to older, poorly insulated, improperly sized, tank heaters in badly designed plumbing systems. Hardly a fair comparison. Chris ------------------------------ >Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:28:26 -0800 From: Daniel Dancer Subject: GBlist: Propane waterheaters/generators >Greetings....I'd very much love your suggestions. You've all been very helpful in answering my questions to this point and I thank you very much. >I'm going to be building an off the grid home this summer and am wondering what folks feel about the efficiency and reliability of "instant on" hot water heaters vs. a small, well insulated, regular propane hot water heater. I'm buiding an earth sheltered garage with a two story studio apartment next to it. I was thinking about putting the propane heater and my back-up propane generator in the back corner of the garage abutting the apartment and venting them up both up and at a slight angle through the apartment roof. Will this work? >Many Thanks, Daniel Dancer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 26 18:58:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA13308 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:58:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00803; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:51:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:46:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA00424 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:46:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp0.mindspring.com (smtp0.mindspring.com [207.69.200.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00419 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip170.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.170]) by smtp0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA09526; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:48:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990226235011.00a5934c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:50:11 -0500 To: Renewable News Network , Alan Courtright From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: home heating alternatives Cc: Nadav Malin , greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk >Such fuel associated costs might be labeled: Please add to the btu/unit list: LPG (propane) @ 95,475 btus/gal. Coal (lignite) @ 14,940 btus/lb. Kerosene @ 137,900 btus/gal. And maybe use: #2 Oil @ 138,690 btus/gal - a slight adjustment Since these are DELIVERED btus/unit, they ought to be all adjusted for what we used to call externalities - for example transmission losses + the energy neded to generate electricity might actually triple the btus/kWh to 11,600. As mentioned the other factor is efficiency - 400%+ for some geo-thermal systems, 100% for electric baseboard, -30% for an old pot belly coal stove, 10% for most PV systems. We often reduce these radically based upon system efficiency - ductwork, air in hydronic systems, but that is more a judgement call. best -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty tel.516/477-2922 North Fork Retrofit fax.516/345-3169 511 Carpenter St doughf@mindspring.com Greenport, NY 11944 http://www.home-performance.org Building Performance Contractors Association - providing services to contractors working to increase the comfort, health and safety, efficiency and durability of housing through the treatment of the house as a whole system. --------------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Feb 26 21:00:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA14980 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:00:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05131; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:51:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:47:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04806 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:47:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from seahorse.epud.net (root@seahorse.epud.net [205.240.25.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA04802 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:47:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from dialport36.epud.net (dialport63.epud.net [209.102.14.63]) by seahorse.epud.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id RAA07371 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:21:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by dialport36.epud.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BE61B1.8A848980@dialport36.epud.net>; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:57:57 -0800 Message-ID: <01BE61B1.8A848980@dialport36.epud.net> From: Dean Still To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Angles in a Buckminsterfullerine Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:57:48 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id UAA04803 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear Friends, Does anyone know the angles between the hexagons and pentagons and between the hex's and hex's? I measure 130 degrees hex to hex and 144 degrees pent to hex but would like confirmation before building a Bucky Inn, a large plywood structure based on this pattern. Thanks very much, Dean Still ---------- From: Gary Anderson[SMTP:merken7@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 8:51 AM To: deblombard@swinter.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Solar source fiberoptic light pipes Debra, I seem to recall seeing something within the past several years in Popular Science magazine about solar source fiberoptic light pipes. I checked the Popular Science web site, but unfortunately their primitive search function could not find the article. Also tried several other web searches without luck. I am completely certain that the article exists however. I wish I could give you more info, but PS may be somewhere to look if you can find a good index for the magazine's articles. May be somewhere to start anyway. I find the concept fascinating. Gary Anderson == Gary and Sook-Kyung Anderson ;^} Future Green Builders Newport News VA _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 27 13:04:28 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26174 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:04:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03272; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:56:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:51:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02875 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:51:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cyberzone.net (mail.cyberzone.net [209.150.2.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02871 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:51:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (cz-cblk-150-10-183.cyberzone.net [209.150.10.183]) by mail.cyberzone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 222 ID# 553-55039U3600L350S0V35) with SMTP id net for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:32:37 -0500 Message-ID: <36D85C0D.2288@cyberzone.net> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:56:45 -0800 From: Dan and Pam Harazim Reply-To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Unico heating systems Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Is anyone familiar with the Unico heating and cooling system (www.unicosystem.com)? They claim to push air through some rather small tubing, and call it a wonder system for retrofitting old houses, "as seen on 'This Old House'. Regards, Dan Harazim ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 27 13:52:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA26680 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:52:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06056; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:45:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:41:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05594 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:40:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05590 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:40:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id MAA23283 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:42:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from vna-va9-57.ix.netcom.com(207.223.177.121) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma023201; Sat Feb 27 12:41:52 1999 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990227134951.008026e0@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:49:51 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Fuel / energy content / "heat rate" / efficiency Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Subject: Fuel / energy content / "heat rate" / efficiency (discussion) =============================================== The issue of energy content of fuels and "heat rate" of electric power generation and transmission is often quite confusing, I know it took me a while to come to grips with the various units, efficiency issues, and the "source -v- site" problem (opportunity/) -- so a couple of hopefully helpful comments: 1. A source Btu of electric power is not _always_ 11,600 Btu/kWh but rather varies in a range of approx. 9,400 Btu/kWh to over 15,000 Btu/kWh Many utilities track this "heat rate" value for the service territory, and you may also be able to find sources of comparative data, such as the Edison Electric Institute or NAURC (Nat. Assn. of Regulatory Utility Commissioners, Washington, DC) Getting an actual value for you fuel is important in many areas since utilities often have a complex mix of fuels and generating types (coal or nuke baseload, natural gas topping cycle, bio-mass, hydro -- whatever) and this mix will become more flexible as utilities change their supply roles and business models during deregulation. So who cares? Well, anyone who wants to convert energy savings by fuel type into their associated quantities (usually weight) of avoided atmospheric emissions. -- For example see: then scroll to -- "Avoiding Air-pollution through Energy Efficiency " Excel spreadsheet in "Zip" file You get less "pollution credit" if you save energy supplied at a low numerical heat rate (cleaner...hydro, PV, wind, biomass), versus that supplied at a high heat rate (dirty -- like high-S coal). Unfortunately the heat rates reported for service territories with large portions of their supply from nuclear provide a distorted appearance of "clean-ness" since the long term environmental costs of rad-waste and decommissioning are still conveniently "externalities" to the accounting. [R. Ottinger. _Environmental Costs of Electricity_ 1990. Pace Univ. NY] 2. Efficiency Issue: While general comparative values for equipment mechanical efficiency are useful, there is more going on in making such selection of competing mechanical systems since there inconveniently may be several "right answers" to the same questions. First, when I do any calculations of HVAC systems, I always start with the question "what is the whole building scheme" to which the system with provide comfort benefits to the occupants? This way I have found it is more effective to set project priorities {most clients want comfort at affordable first cost, combined with acceptable life-cycle cash flows -- and they want everything explained in simple terms}. Thus, only once I have looked at the proposed (new) or on-site (existing) building in a wholistic sense can we begin to distill HVAC recommendations, from which system type, sizing, distribution, control, and commissioning recommendations (there are more details in this process, omitted for clarity) may be made hoping to converge on the best of the "right" answers. The most efficient mechanical equipment in the world will perform poorly if the rest of the supporting players are all out of whack. Typically, (and you have likely heard these before) the big goofs are in: * not integrating whole building efficiency (and renewable energy) measures. * over-sizing the equipment output capacity ("got to avoid call-backs"); * under rating the impact of duct / piping leakage / thermal loss (duh, taken care of in "safety" factors); and * overly complex system design for the job. It's not just the equipment --> (OE = overall efficiency) OE (decimal) = equipment eff. x distrib. effic. x "other" effic. (DoE test / rated eff.) (thermal and leakage) | ~ AFUE,tc. | | duct leaks, heat loss | | inefficiency not accounted | Examples: A. "good" furnace with excellent ducts, "right-sizing" located in conditioned space ~ 0.81 = OE = 0.85 x 0.95 x 1.0 [tested, sealed ducts, right sized] B. "super efficient" furnace, leaky ducts, located in unconditioned space, oversized by ~1.5x ~ 0.735 = OE = 0.93 x 0.85 x 0.93 [15% duct leaks, cycling and losses to uncond.] So the "super efficient" scenario actually could take a nearly 10% net hit from poor design, operating location, and sloppy duct construction compared to a "good" furnace well conceived and installed. ------- >Frazer Dougherty wrote: >Please add to the btu/unit list: >LPG (propane) @ 95,475 btus/gal. >Coal (lignite) @ 14,940 btus/lb. >Kerosene @ 137,900 btus/gal. > >And maybe use: >#2 Oil @ 138,690 btus/gal - a slight adjustment >Since these are DELIVERED btus/unit, they ought to be all adjusted for what >we used to call externalities - for example transmission losses + the energy >needed to generate electricity might actually triple the btus/kWh to 11,600. > >As mentioned the other factor is efficiency - 400%+ for some geo-thermal >systems, 100% for electric baseboard, -30% for an old pot belly coal stove, >10% for most PV systems. We often reduce these radically based upon system >efficiency - ductwork, air in hydronic systems, but that is more a judgement >call. ----------- || =(O) = Environmental Building Consulting Services || Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA === note revised e-mail address above === ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 27 14:39:41 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA27265 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:39:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08342; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:32:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:28:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07889 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:28:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo25.mx.aol.com (imo25.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA07884 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:27:58 -0500 (EST) From: IAQKibbey@aol.com Received: from IAQKibbey@aol.com by imo25.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id RBNWa20271 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:29:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <53e94383.36d8478c@aol.com> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:29:16 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Unico heating systems Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 54 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dan, I briefly checked out the website and the questions that occur to me are: 1. Looks like interior surfaces of ducts are plastic (PVC?) I wonder if a plastic odor is incorporated into heated air. 2. High velocity air is even more likely than standard forced air to disturb ionization, cause turbulent airborne dust and other particulate contamination, create static electricity, and affect other subtle "energy" forces in the indoor air. 3. Does the higher velocity and tighter duct system lead to more possibilities for errors in return/supply installation balance, causing pressure differentials within rooms and interstitial spaces? 4. Does higher velocity through smaller tubes create more resistance, limiting the amount of filter media able to be applied without harming capacity and efficiency? Then again, this system does remind me of some duct samples from Sweden that Mike Uniacke, a Building Science advocate from Prescott, AZ, showed me one time. They are absolutely airtight round stainless steel ducts with welded seams, slow bends, smooth interior surfaces, and rubber O-ring connections. The size I saw was about 4" or 5" in diameter. The principle here was, to my recollection, that if the ducts were 100% perfectly airtight with little resistance to air flow, velocity could be LOWERED and the size of the air handler and heating or cooling source could be DECREASED, allowing for a quiet, highly efficient unit with no air loss. They were also beautifully crafted, almost sculptural parts--a pleasure to see in this world of mass- produced cheap goods! Expensive, but undoubtedly cheaper utility bills. The last phone number I had for Mike Uniacke was 520-717-2879. I do believe that, even with the best efforts to seal typical HVAC systems with mastic, most air handlers, plenums, trunks, and duct systems are so leaky by design that a lot of energy is wasted and a number of IAQ issues are raised. Any attempt to rethink the basic system is a welcome breath of (pardon the expression) fresh air. David Kibbey, Environmental Building Consultant 1618 Parker Street Berkeley, CA 94703 phone: 510-841-1039 fax: 510-841-1008 iaqkibbey@aol.com ------------------------------------------ In a message dated 2/27/1999 9:54:57 AM, dpharazim@cyberzone.net writes: >Is anyone familiar with the Unico heating and cooling system >(www.unicosystem.com)? They claim to push air through some rather small >tubing, and call it a wonder system for retrofitting old houses, "as >seen on 'This Old House'. >Regards, >Dan Harazim ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 27 14:48:30 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA27375 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:48:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08886; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:41:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:37:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA08510 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:37:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from math.mit.edu (MATH.MIT.EDU [18.87.0.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08506 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:36:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from severi.mit.edu (SEVERI.MIT.EDU [18.87.0.68]) by math.mit.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA27026 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:38:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from julie@localhost) by severi.mit.edu (8.8.7/8.6.9) id OAA00880; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:38:44 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:38:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902271938.OAA00880@severi.mit.edu> From: Julie Rehmeyer To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: stone foundations Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I am planning to build a strawbale house, and I'm in the phase of trying to make all the final decisions and get plans drawn up for permits. At the moment I'm thinking about foundations. My site has a fair amount of loose stone on it, and because of that (and because of aesthetics) I've been considering making the portion of the foundation that will be above grade be made of slip-formed stone. The house is not huge and the foundation only needs to go a foot above grade, so it wouldn't be that big a wall. My concerns are the following: 1. How much additional time will it take beyond what it would take to just pour the wall? I'm willing to spend some extra time, but I don't want to get myself into an overwhelming project. 2. Is the rock on my property suitable for this purpose? Obviously you all aren't going to be able tell me this, but I'm not even sure how to find out. My impression from what I've read is that most rock is suitable, but I'm not sure if that's accurate. Do I need to just hire someone who knows to look at it, or can someone tell me what to look for? 3. How practical is it time-wise to gather rock from my property? There's a fair amount of it, but most of the stone is up a steep drainage or on very steep slopes. I've thought of renting or borrowing a four-wheeler that could go up the drainage to minimize the shlepping of stones. Does anyone have any sense of the scale of the gathering project? I think we will need about 3 cubic yards of rock. I know that's a hard question without knowing the details of the situation, but any guidance would be great. Thanks for your help. Julie ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 27 15:20:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA27861 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:20:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10147; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:13:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:09:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA09835 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:09:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from neti.saber.net (neti.saber.net [205.139.65.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09831 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:09:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from saber.net (s-s7-p2-85142.saber.net [205.139.85.142]) by neti.saber.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA27028 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:11:17 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36D85146.D9F07A45@saber.net> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:10:47 -0800 From: JChance X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Propane waterheaters/generators References: <199902270700.CAA15013@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk > Chris: Thank you for your detailed description of the pros and cons of tank vs on demand waterheaters. I am in the process of designing a home to be started next spring and have been wrestling with both options. I was intregued concerning your description of keeping the bathroom heated by the tank system. Would some type of ventilation system also be necessary given the tank is in an enclosed space. My concern is also based on my plans to build a strawbale home which means it will be rather tight in terms of air exchange. Thanks again for the information. Chazz > Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:54:19 -0500 > From: CN > Subject: GBlist: Propane waterheaters/generators > > Daniel, > > I've been through this issue often with friends who have off-grid houses, > or are trying to save energy and money. My own house is off-grid so I use > propane to heat domestic hot water. I decided to go with a small tank > heater instead of an on-demand heater. My experience over the past 8 years > living with the tank heater is that it may very well be more efficient in > my situation as an on-demand heater. It also has several other advantages. > > I have a 6-gallon through the wall venting heater designed for RV's. They > cost less than $300. I have added extra insulation to the tank (reflectix > because the initial fiberglass insulation that came with it ended up being > an ant nest). I do not currently have a washing machine, dishwasher, or > bath tub. I have found that for showers and sink use, I never run out of > hot water in a one person household. With guests, showers have to be short > or staggered by about 20 minutes in order for it to recover. But that has > never been a problem. When hot water is not being drawn off from the tank, > the pilot light alone provides sufficient heat to keep it at it's set > temperature. Therefore, for this small, well insulated tank, I have > essentially no stand-by losses. In comparison to on-demand heaters which > also require a pilot light, there should be very little difference in > overall efficiency between the two types. I'm assuming that both types > transfer heat to the water equally well, which I believe is a reasonable > assumption. Perhaps there are others on this list who know more about this. > > My annual propane cost, which includes a gas stove and gas refrigerator, is > less than $100 a year. Probably, the hot water heater only accounts for > about half of this. > > I have a low flow shower head with a built in on/off switch which I use to > conserve water while soaping up. I use less than 10 gallons of water (mix > of hot and cold) even for a pleasantly long shower. > > The heater is located in the bathroom so that the small amount of heat lost > by the tank keeps the bathroom warm so that I don't have to run hot water > in the shower for several minutes to heat the air in the bathroom. The > bathroom is also very well insulated and serves as my freeze-free zone when > I leave my wood-heated house for more than a day in the winter time. At > those times I turn a valve to allow the hot water heater to thermosiphon > hot water through a loop of copper pipe which acts as a radiator for > keeping the bathroom warm. > > I live in northern New York where it gets cold in winter, and the heating > season is often 9 months long. > > Where do you live? In heating climates like mine, there is rarely such a > thing as standby losses from a tank heater, as long as the tank is located > somewhere in the house where additional heat can be used. If you put a > tank in a garage, then the standby losses will just heat your garage, which > probably isn't much use. In that case, or in warm climates, on-demand > heaters may be more efficient. > > However, there are other reason's I chose a tank heater instead of an > on-demand heater. All of the smaller on-demand heaters, and all but the > most expensive larger ones, do not in my opinion do a good job modulating > heat output when the flow rate of water changes. Every time I use one I > spend a lot of time either being scalded or freezing. And that doesn't > even consider what happens if someone else in the house starts drawing hot > water. Even if you figure out the quirks of getting on-demand heaters to > work, your guests won't. > > The on/off shower heads would be almost impossible to use with these poorly > modulated on-demand heaters. You basically have to keep the flow rate > constant to have any hope of getting a shower at a comfortable temperature. > Since my on/off valve allows me to cut my hot water use by 30 to 50%, I > believe my overall system is far more efficient using the tank heater > rather than an on-demand heater. What's more, I save a lot of water. And, > even the smallest propane on-demand heaters are much more expensive than > tank heaters. > > I just heard a rumour yesterday that there are new Aquastar brand on-demand > heater models which do a better job of modulating heater output, but before > spending many hundreds of dollars, I'd want to actually try one before > believing it. The Aquastar and Paloma models I've used all suffered from > poor modulation. Also, the Targa brand on-demand heaters are supposed to > actually do an excellent job of modulating output, but they cost around a > thousand dollars and require electricity to operate, so they might not be a > good choice for an off-grid house. > > I don't know much about the relative reliabilities and life-times of tank > versus on-demand heaters. > > The advertising for on-demand heaters always claims they are more > efficient, but I think they are comparing them to older, poorly insulated, > improperly sized, tank heaters in badly designed plumbing systems. Hardly > a fair comparison. > > Chris > > - ------------------------------ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Feb 27 16:48:46 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA29428 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:48:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA14676; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:39:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:32:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA14317 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:32:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14313 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:32:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02694; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:30:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:30:15 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Courtright To: Frazer Dougherty cc: Renewable News Network , Nadav Malin , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: home heating alternatives In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19990226235011.00a5934c@pop.mindspring.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Thanks, Frazer! I've save that and will dig it back out when my neurons are feeling calm and competent. On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Frazer Dougherty wrote: > >Such fuel associated costs might be labeled: > > Please add to the btu/unit list: > LPG (propane) @ 95,475 btus/gal. > Coal (lignite) @ 14,940 btus/lb. > Kerosene @ 137,900 btus/gal. > > And maybe use: > #2 Oil @ 138,690 btus/gal - a slight adjustment > Since these are DELIVERED btus/unit, they ought to be all adjusted for what > we used to call externalities - for example transmission losses + the energy > neded to generate electricity might actually triple the btus/kWh to 11,600. > > As mentioned the other factor is efficiency - 400%+ for some geo-thermal > systems, 100% for electric baseboard, -30% for an old pot belly coal stove, > 10% for most PV systems. We often reduce these radically based upon system > efficiency - ductwork, air in hydronic systems, but that is more a judgement > call. -|//*Alan Courtright*\\|= Poulsbo, WA acourtri@krl.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 28 02:49:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA06626 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 02:49:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA02285; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 02:42:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Feb 1999 02:36:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA01986 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 02:36:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.monumental.com (mail1.mnsinc.com [206.55.3.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA01982 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 02:36:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.239.150.199] (hardwick.mnsinc.com [206.239.150.199]) by mail1.monumental.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA07535 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 02:32:48 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: hardwick@mnsinc.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36D85C0D.2288@cyberzone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 02:38:02 -0500 To: Green building list From: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" Subject: Re: GBlist: Unico heating systems Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk 990228 This type of system was used for many years in the old homes of Richmond, VA. I observed it as being noisy and recall some tech telling me it was hard on its air handling motors (not sure about this), but it indeed is less intrusive to install. Have not heard of it in years, but do not recall the brand as being the one url'd in the prior post. In my non-engr opinion, I think conventional ductwork is better whenever possible to use. jh >Is anyone familiar with the Unico heating and cooling system >(http://www.unicosystem.com) ? They claim to push air through some rather >small >tubing, and call it a wonder system for retrofitting old houses, "as >seen on 'This Old House'. >Regards, >Dan Harazim ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 28 05:37:42 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA08138 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 05:37:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA05374; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 05:30:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Feb 1999 05:26:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA05148 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 05:26:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA05144 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 05:26:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from which.net ([194.168.104.143]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA11092 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:34:27 +0000 Message-ID: <36D91018.1BAB3A97@which.net> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 09:44:56 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Fuel / energy content / "heat rate" / efficiency Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Wouldn't electricity generated from the kinetic energy of wind and water have a source BTU consumption of zero since nothing is burned? Malcolm Bion wrote: The issue of energy content of fuels and "heat rate" of electric power generation and transmission is often quite confusing, I know it took me a while to come to grips with the various units, efficiency issues, and the "source -v- site" problem (opportunity/) -- so a couple of hopefully helpful comments: 1. A source Btu of electric power is not _always_ 11,600 Btu/kWh but rather varies in a range of approx. 9,400 Btu/kWh to over 15,000 Btu/kWh ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 28 08:46:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA09198 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 08:46:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA08451; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 08:39:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Feb 1999 08:35:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA08197 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 08:35:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx02.together.net (mx02.together.net [204.97.120.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA08192 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 08:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.net (dial-144-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.144]) by mx02.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA31921; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 08:37:02 -0500 Message-ID: <36D94666.76D2E7F5@together.net> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 08:36:39 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,nl MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dpharazim@cyberzone.net CC: greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Unico heating systems References: <36D85C0D.2288@cyberzone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk High Pressure, high velocity HVAC systems: The primary applications for this type of system are structures where duct space is limited or un available. I have evaluated these systems for potential use, and ended up rejecting them. Very high duct distribution pressure losses, potential sound issues and concerns about overall efficiency come to mind. The small 2 inch diameter ducts are the key selling point.... they fit where other conventional systems will not. But this selling point becomes a drawback because of the high pressure losses the fan must overcome. Here are some ball-park quickie calcs for the fan energy (US inch pound units). Lets assume 400 Cfm delivered per ton, with .5" w.c. for a conventional system and 2.0" w.c. for Unico type system. Fan horsepower is calculated as: HPfan = (Cfm x TP)/(6356 x EFFfan) Where: HP Fan = fan horsepower Cfm= delivered air TP= Total system pressure, in inches of water column (w.c.) 6256= mass flow constant per cfm EFFfan= Fan efficiency (assumed to be 60%, probably less) Conventional system: HPfan Conventional= (400cfm x .5")/(6356 x .6) = .053 HP per Ton Unico High Pressure system: HPfan Hi Press= (400cfm x 2.0")/(6356 x .6) = .21 HP per Ton Thus, parasitic fan energy incremental penalty for high pressure will be (.21 - .053) = .157 HP per Ton Also, this fan energy creates additional cooling load, due to fan energy conversion to heat, and must be added to the systems' calculated cooling loads. When added in, this will result in about a total 200 watts extra per ton for High Pressure systems. May not sound like much, but it adds up over time and with installed tonnage. Also, you still have to deal with the return air ducting.... which is conventionally sized and does not use these mini ducts. Conclusion: The energy penalty for high pressure/velocity supply ducts is substantial. No question there are applications where these systems are suitable because of site conditions, where other alternatives will not fit, if space for return ducts can be found. Again, these calcs are rough estimates only using assumptions. This concept reminds me of the pre oil embargo HVAC system designs for high rise buildings. At that time, operating costs were of minor concern, so design engineers used flat oval ducts with special acoustical lining and sized the ducts for very high velocity. This added a slight cost to HVAC construction costs, but this enabled the Architect to reduce the floor to floor height a foot or two for each floor by squashing the ducts. This made for big first cost savings in a 50 or 100 story high rise, at the expense of fan operating costs. More than once I have come across HVAC commercial systems where the energy needed to distribute air or water is greater than that needed for central cooling or heating plants. Tom Anderson Dan and Pam Harazim wrote: > Is anyone familiar with the Unico heating and cooling system > (www.unicosystem.com)? They claim to push air through some rather small > tubing, and call it a wonder system for retrofitting old houses, "as > seen on 'This Old House'. > Regards, > Dan Harazim > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 28 10:27:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA09804 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:27:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA11641; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:20:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:16:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA11283 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:16:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (7.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA11279 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:16:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.32]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 2906500 ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 07:38:59 -0800 Message-ID: <36D95DFB.3C67DF3D@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 07:17:15 -0800 From: JOHN SALMEN X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Julie Rehmeyer CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: stone foundations References: <199902271938.OAA00880@severi.mit.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi Julie Local gravel yards usually have large river rock (oversize) which is what I imagine your rock is. The advantages are that it can be loaded and even delivered and it is quite clean. We've usually hand loaded just to get the right sizes i.e something that can be thrown 10' with one hand and doesn't break on impact. If you are pouring a wide wall for bales using rock can save on 4-6" of concrete but at the expense of a lot of time and a certain amount of strength in the wall. The wall is poured a section at a time which generally means having to hand mix the concrete and cold joints. For example two 8' wide x 2' high inner and outer forms are set up - rock is stacked against the outer and back filled with concrete - as you work your way into the second section of forms you will have to stop and strip the outer form of the first (to clean the rock while the concrete is relatively fresh). When you stop for the day you will have to take all the outer forms off, clean the rock and replace the forms where the wall was incomplete. You can imagine that you are spending more time stripping and cleaning than placing rock. I imagine you could do two such sections in a day (one person mixing concrete and one person laying rock). The forms we use are simple reinforced plywood boxes and they are held together with lengths of thin threaded rod (redi-rod) that are left in the rock - this allows forms to be put back on easily and used as references for the next set either horizontally or vertically. We have used rock perimeter and full height walls where there is heavy exposure to weather and the client does not like the notion of a concrete or masonry wall. We've also run our base wall higher than the general 8"-12" because it is wet here and material gets quite wet below 24". The end result is a bit more attractive than concrete and maintenance free but only at the expense of lots of initial work. I would recommend going higher with the perimeter than a foot (the interior line of concrete also looks good as a base detail for the bales) If you have time and or friends it is a nice way to begin a project and certainly will allow you to feel that you have actually begun something and bales will seem light in comparison to buckets of concrete. The straight flat surface of a concrete base however is a nice contrast to the bale and stucco work above. best john Julie Rehmeyer wrote: > I am planning to build a strawbale house, and I'm in the phase of > trying to make all the final decisions and get plans drawn up for > permits. At the moment I'm thinking about foundations. > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 28 11:33:30 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10810 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:33:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14231; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:25:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:21:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13930 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:21:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ritchie.loop.com (ritchie-inet.loop.com [207.211.60.70]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13922 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:21:33 -0500 (EST) From: bg4gls@loop.com Received: from 207.211.62.214 (p19.hwts14.loop.net [207.211.62.214]) by ritchie.loop.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA26979 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 08:20:31 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36D96D6D.7D11@loop.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 08:23:33 -0800 Reply-To: bg4gls@loop.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Macintosh; I; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: "Efficiency" vs Climate References: <199902280700.CAA00766@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear GB Listers, First, let me confess I am in Southern California. I live in a house that is mostly powered by Boulder Dam and was built in 1947 with no thought of insulation. Yes, it is 73° on Feb 28th. But *that* is not my fault. At the risk of being branded a temperate climate chauvinist, I would like to get your input on something that has been going through my mind since I subscribed to this list about a year ago. A large portion of the discussion in this group (and the content of many websites and the work of several government agencies) is devoted to the relative efficiency of methods of keeping humans comfortable in climates that are too cold to "support life" during some portion of the year. I'm wondering if any of you have studied the theoretical question of whether it makes sense, from a resources conservation standpoint, for people to live above 40° N latitude (an arbitrary #) in the winter? If we were still nomadic and could simply move everybody south in the winter, would we cut down fewer trees, need less oil, consume fewer watts? If we could simply keep the window open all year would we need to concern ourselves with indoor air quality and sick building syndrome? Perhaps the question is: If we could work it out so the we could all live comfortably in tents all year, would we (and the earth) all be better off? [I know there are similar questions to be proposed about warm climates and the excessive use of air conditioning, etc. But lets save that for later.] Respectfully submitted, Bob Galbreath Geo-Lite Systems ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 28 13:34:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA12174 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:34:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20146; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:26:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:21:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19778 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:21:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from labs.tamu.edu (labs.tamu.edu [128.194.103.89]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19767 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:21:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (modem-0137.rns.tamu.edu) by labs.tamu.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.0004D08B@labs.tamu.edu>; 28 Feb 1999 12:23:33 -0600 Message-ID: <36D989D1.3426@labs.tamu.edu> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:24:17 -0600 From: marvit Reply-To: rsm444d@labs.tamu.edu Organization: Texas A&M University X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: mold on wood References: <3.0.5.32.19990227134951.008026e0@popd.ix.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Question about painting exterior wood, with pre-existing mold? Porch pillars: have been exposed for a year without paint & weathered in our texas humid climate to a gray color; from ( mold? organism). have time to paint now, but don't i have to kill the (mold?) otherwise i heard it will come thru the paint job in time??????? is this true? If so, i wondered if i could get suggestions on a less toxic method other than a clorox wash----- i use 9%acidic vinegar in garden, this would seem to me to work, but didn't know if that would leave a chemical situation that the paint didn't like. P.s. should i use something to seal the wood...Linseed oil before i paint??? hope this is appropriate question. warm regards j.frost ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 28 14:31:27 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12925 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:31:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23374; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:23:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:19:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22717 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:19:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from grunge.golden.net (grunge.golden.net [199.166.210.180]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22702 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:19:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-21-39.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.39]) by grunge.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA22186 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:21:31 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: From: "John Straube" To: Subject: GBlist: Turbulent flow precipitator air cleaners Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:26:47 -0500 Message-ID: <000001be6350$4928d9a0$2784b7d1@jfstraube> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone have any thoughts and/or experience about with turbulent flow precipitator air cleaners such as the nutone (www.nutone.com) model for housing? They advertise very high removal rates (90%) of very small particulates (less than 1 micron, i.e., the ones that are most dangerous). Although they have pressure drops as high as normal media filters, they require less maintanence. I have no experience with these at all, but the technology seems rather elegant. Thanks in advance -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- John Straube Building Envelope Eng. Building Eng Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone 519 741 7920 Fax 519 885 5193 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 28 14:31:34 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA12930 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:31:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23395; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:24:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:20:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA22731 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:19:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from grunge.golden.net (grunge.golden.net [199.166.210.180]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA22727 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from jfstraube (AS52-21-39.cas-kit.golden.net [209.183.132.39]) by grunge.golden.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA22196; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:21:33 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: From: "John Straube" To: Cc: Subject: RE: GBlist: Unico heating systems Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:26:50 -0500 Message-ID: <000101be6350$4a3d08c0$2784b7d1@jfstraube> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 In-Reply-To: <53e94383.36d8478c@aol.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I do not know this product line, but smaller ducts are likely in the future, based on trends in advanced housing in Canada, Sweden, Finland and other places. Why? Not to use higher velocities (since this uses more fan energy, a big energy consumer in EE houses), but because flow rates can be greatly lowered by using efficient building enclosures (hence smaller ducts sizes with the same size fan). There is no longer any need to deliver heat below windows that have high efficiencies, which means all duct runs can be kept to the middle of the house, greatly saving duct costs and reducing fan energy. The combination of these factors means that 3.5 -5.5" diameter flexible ducts can be run from the basement or service closet to most areas of a reasonably sized house without excess fan sizes. The limiting factor is often the supply of fresh air/removal of stale air, not the supply of hot or cold air. Nobody concerned with healthy or energy efficient (or, dare I say, sensible) housing will, ever, run ducts outside the thermal envelope and then back in again. The airtightness of ducts contained within the enclosure hardly has an effect on performance so does not become that important of an issue. This is where to place them. Placing ducts inside the attic is shear madness IMO. Trying to solve duct leakage issues is for people trying to make small changes, or retrofit, in bad houses, not for those who are able to design the house from the ground up. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- John Straube Building Envelope Eng. Building Eng Group 165 Albert St University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ont. Waterloo, Ont. Canada N2L 3T2 Canada N2L 3G1 Phone 519 741 7920 Fax 519 885 5193 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 28 14:49:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA13145 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24235; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:41:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:37:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA23934 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:37:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.gorge.net (mail.gorge.net [205.162.195.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23930 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:37:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from gorge.net ([208.14.145.209]) by mail.gorge.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-54909U8000L800S0V35) with ESMTP id AAA126 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:27:32 -0800 Message-ID: <36D99B48.3EFCA896@gorge.net> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:38:50 -0800 From: Daniel Dancer Organization: ZeroCircles Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: OR off and on the grid Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Greetings.... Some of you may recall my dilemna in deciding whether to go off the grid in my new rural Oregon home or tie into to the cheap and clean (except for the salmon situation) power of the Bonneville system. I am currently thinking of hooking up to the grod and selling power back to them when I don't need it. Does anyone know the current situation in Oregon as to how practical this is? What do I need mechanically to be able to do this? Many Thanks! Daniel Dancer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 28 17:15:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA15240 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:15:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00096; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:08:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:04:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA29724 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:04:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA29720 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:04:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on6-20.netcom.ca [207.181.91.148]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07106; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:05:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990228165839.00997690@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:04:45 -0400 To: bg4gls@loop.com From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: "Efficiency" vs Climate Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <36D96D6D.7D11@loop.com> References: <199902280700.CAA00766@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id RAA29721 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 08:23 AM 28/02/99 -0800, Bob Galbreath wrote: (snip) >I'm wondering if any of you have studied the theoretical question of >whether it makes sense, from a resources conservation standpoint, for >people to live above 40° N latitude (an arbitrary #) in the winter? > >If we were still nomadic and could simply move everybody south in the >winter, would we cut down fewer trees, need less oil, consume fewer >watts? (snip) My response, as a northerner, is somewhat opinionated - but I don't think so. Necessity has always forced innovation in the North. I'd guess that there would be tents in the SoCal desert that consume more energy on a 30F night than some 3000 sq. ft. houses in Ottawa on a -30F night. Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 28 18:17:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA16325 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:17:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA02912; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:09:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:05:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA02578 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:05:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.14]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA02574 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:05:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA15939 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:06:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from stl-wa50-14.ix.netcom.com(207.220.40.78) by dfw-ix14.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma015911; Sun Feb 28 17:06:22 1999 Message-ID: <001a01be632b$7bf6ada0$4e28dccf@upesi> From: "Russel DeLombard" To: "Green Building" Subject: Re: GBlist: "Efficiency" vs Climate Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:03:19 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On 28 Feb 1999, Norbert writes: >At 08:23 AM 28/02/99 -0800, Bob Galbreath wrote: >(snip) >>I'm wondering if any of you have studied the theoretical question of >>whether it makes sense, from a resources conservation standpoint, for >>people to live above 40° N latitude (an arbitrary #) in the winter? >> >>If we were still nomadic and could simply move everybody south in the >>winter, would we cut down fewer trees, need less oil, consume fewer >>watts? (snip) > >My response, as a northerner, is somewhat opinionated - but I don't think >so. Necessity has always forced innovation in the North. I'd guess that >there would be tents in the SoCal desert that consume more energy on a 30F >night than some 3000 sq. ft. houses in Ottawa on a -30F night. > >Norbert (snip) ...not to mention the fuel required to move everyone, and their gear, south...and then back north again during the "air conditioning" season...or are we walking and carrying our stuff as well as living in tents? Russel DeLombard, Architect Avatar Construction Inc. Box 11257 Bainbridge Island WA 98110 (206) 842-9350 Phone/FAX ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 28 21:28:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA18379 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:28:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12003; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:20:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:15:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA11361 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:15:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlas.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [209.250.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA11342 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:15:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from timex.pathcom.com (ts41l19.pathcom.com [209.250.145.76]) by atlas.pathcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA03206 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:20:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903010220.VAA03206@atlas.pathcom.com> From: timex@pathcom.com To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:23:04 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: siding Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk In some of the renovations I am doing, my advisor suggested that I strip all the brick off the outside of the house's first floor (the second floor is board & batten) and maybe the second, since it is all a mess anyway from the house settling, and replace it with good insulation and vinyl siding. I am balking at the vinyl siding, and wondered what alternatives you might suggest. Only one thing else, whatever it is must be light - can't be brick again, as this will save me putting in a supporting wall that will halve the proposed apartment. I should be able to get away with a cross beam for support without the brick (any naysayers?) thanks for any thoughts marilyn Cybercrone http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Don't get even. . . get odd! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 28 22:22:20 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19526 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:22:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA16260; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:14:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:10:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA15827 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:09:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA15821 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:09:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (slip166-72-225-136.az.us.ibm.net [166.72.225.136]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id DAA109728 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 03:12:00 GMT Message-Id: <199903010312.DAA109728@out2.ibm.net> To: Greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 2.5) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20:22:58 MST From: Racheli Gai Reply-To: Racheli & John Subject: GBlist: Information on floors Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi Green Builders, I'm researching floors for my cohousing community in Tucson, AZ. I would like to get recommendations for inexpensive (non/low toxic) alternatives to synthetic wall to wall carpeting. I'm especially interested in finding out whether polished colored concrete floors are an affordable alternative: Since many of the units will have a slab on grade, it seems that making the concrete attractive enough so there is no need to cover it with something else is the most environmentally friendly thing to do. Our potential builder has been insisting, though, that this alternative is too expensive because the construction workers need to take special precautions to protect the slab during the rest of the building process. So, how expensive are such concrete floors? And what other options have we got? Awaiting enlightenment... Racheli Gai ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 28 22:48:46 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA19776 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:48:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA17639; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:39:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:35:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17287 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:35:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17281 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:35:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.51] (rkd027.acadia.net [208.244.128.51]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA13453 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:37:18 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:35:50 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Grasscrete Pavers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk We're doing a project with 6 off-street parking spaces. Hate to cover over that much green space, and wondered if anyone on the list has real-world experience with "Grasscrete" pavers - these are cast concrete shapes with a hole in the middle, which theoretically will support soil and plant life but offer enough support for vehicles. The project is in Maine, where frost can heave paving stones and people need to plow snow - two objections I've heard about Grasscrete pavers, but without firsthand knowledge. Of course, a lot of porous fill below might help with the frost problem, but wouldn't be so great an environment for plant life. Any reports of experience with this product would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 28 23:13:51 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA20099 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:13:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA19544; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:06:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:02:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA19106 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:02:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA19102 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-9-77.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.9.77]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA14536; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:04:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36DA135D.B86C3440@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:11:09 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: timex@pathcom.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: siding References: <199903010220.VAA03206@atlas.pathcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I can't remember the name of the product but I can describe it: It's a hardboard product that has been around forever. I think it is made by CP. It is very water resistant. Has a finish on it that can be painted. will not bend and tin-can like vinyl-siding. Good luck. Neil timex@pathcom.com wrote: > > In some of the renovations I am doing, my advisor suggested that I strip > all the brick off the outside of the house's first floor (the second floor > is board & batten) and maybe the second, since it is all a mess anyway > from the house settling, and replace it with good insulation and vinyl > siding. > > I am balking at the vinyl siding, and wondered what alternatives you might > suggest. Only one thing else, whatever it is must be light - can't be > brick again, as this will save me putting in a supporting wall that will > halve the proposed apartment. I should be able to get away with a cross > beam for support without the brick (any naysayers?) > > thanks for any thoughts > marilyn > Cybercrone > http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ > Don't get even. . . get odd! > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 1 02:34:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA22084 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:34:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA04224; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:23:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA03916 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:23:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA03912 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:23:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 5101 invoked from network); 1 Mar 1999 07:25:06 -0000 Received: from usero979.uk.uudial.com (HELO ) (193.149.90.233) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 1 Mar 1999 07:25:06 -0000 Message-ID: <36D999FD.3CA0@dial.pipex.com> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:33:17 +0000 From: Mark Bigland-Pritchard Reply-To: hyphen@dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bg4gls@loop.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: "Efficiency" vs Climate References: <199902280700.CAA00766@solstice.crest.org> <36D96D6D.7D11@loop.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk bg4gls@loop.com wrote: > If we were still nomadic and could simply move everybody south in the > winter, would we cut down fewer trees, need less oil, consume fewer > watts? If we could simply keep the window open all year would we need > to concern ourselves with indoor air quality and sick building > syndrome? Surely the transport costs would be horrendous. (And, speaking from where I am, I think the Spaniards get so many illmannered Brits in the summer that the thought of hosting all 58 million of us plus maybe 35 million or so of the French in the winter would boggle belief...) Mark Bristol, England (2deg37minW, 51deg30minN) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 1 02:36:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA22103 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:36:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA04403; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:29:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:25:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA04066 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:25:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([216.171.28.121]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA04060 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:25:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com ([216.171.28.123] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000096903 for ; Mon, 01 Mar 1999 01:24:13 +0000 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 99 01:42:56 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: Grasscrete Pavers To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <6242757.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk dmfoley@acadia.net writes: >We're doing a project with 6 off-street parking spaces. Hate to cover over >that much green space, and wondered if anyone on the list has real-world >experience with "Grasscrete" pavers - these are cast concrete shapes with a >hole in the middle, which theoretically will support soil and plant life >but offer enough support for vehicles. The project is in Maine, where >frost can heave paving stones and people need to plow snow - two objections >I've heard about Grasscrete pavers, but without firsthand knowledge. Of >course, a lot of porous fill below might help with the frost problem, but >wouldn't be so great an environment for plant life. Any reports of >experience with this product would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. As much as I would love to see you use pervious cover (see http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/PerviousMaterials.html), this doesn't sound like a particularly good application for Grasscrete and similar pavers. They're not usually a smooth surface, so I would suspect that snow plowing would be a definite problem. Another complaint I've heard about them is that they're tough to walk on with high heels. You might do better using one of the recently developed pervious asphalt mixes (or similar). It probably wouldn't look as "green" but you'd accomplish the intent. BC -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 1 08:58:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA25742 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:58:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA18130; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:50:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:46:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA17791 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:46:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA17787 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:46:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:47:58 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C6D6844@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: "Efficiency" vs Climate Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:47:57 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk and what about the water. is there enough water in Southern California to meet the needs of us northerners, even if we bring our greywater systems with us? and who will tend the cows, or tap the maple trees, if we all move south? Mike Rogers > >My response, as a northerner, is somewhat opinionated - but > I don't think > >so. Necessity has always forced innovation in the North. I'd > guess that > >there would be tents in the SoCal desert that consume more > energy on a 30F > >night than some 3000 sq. ft. houses in Ottawa on a -30F night. > > > >Norbert (snip) > > ...not to mention the fuel required to move everyone, and their gear, > south...and then back north again during the "air > conditioning" season...or > are we walking and carrying our stuff as well as living in tents? > > Russel DeLombard, Architect ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 1 10:08:55 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27359 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:08:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA21862; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:01:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:57:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA21471 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:56:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA21467 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:56:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from [169.207.41.106] (tigella-1-106.mdm.mad.execpc.com [169.207.41.106]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id IAA29305 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:59:00 -0600 (CST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:59:00 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Lou Host-Jablonski Subject: RE: GBlist: Grasscrete Pavers Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk >>>>We're doing a project with 6 off-street parking spaces. Hate to cover over that much green space, and wondered if anyone on the list has real-world experience with "Grasscrete" pavers - these are cast concrete shapes with a hole in the middle, which theoretically will support soil and plant life but offer enough support for vehicles. The project is in Maine, where frost can heave paving stones and people need to plow snow - two objections I've heard about Grasscrete pavers, but without firsthand knowledge. Of course, a lot of porous fill below might help with the frost problem, but wouldn't be so great an environment for plant life. Any reports of experience with this product would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design<<<< David, We've used porous pavings on a number of projects. Our experience with the concrete type is mixed; while durable, the concrete seems to wick moisture away from the roots of the grass, so we havn't had much success in maintaining healthy grass. And this is in Wisconsin (USA), where we have plenty of moisture. We've used a plastic-ring type of product (said to be recycled material, from a firm in Colorado) for the parking area at the Arbor House (http://www.execpc.com/~designco/features/arbor-hs/arbhs.htm). These support grass well. Sorry, I'm at my home machine, without the company name and address; I'll try to remember to look up this info at the office. We're also about to install another recycled plastic porous paver for overflow parking for a different project, this one made by Presto Products in Appleton, Wisconsin (we're supporting local/regional businesses!). This one interlocks very well, and looks more sturdy. Snow removal is an issue. If the situation demands clear, bare, hard paving year round, a grass surface is clearly not the appropriate choice. These surfaces can be plowed, just not scraped bare. There are many uses however which do not require this level of snow removal. In Madison, Wisconsin, as an example, we have lots of snow and very good municipal snow removal, but we commonly drive on residential streets that have several inches of packed snow during winter months. As for high heels, there are many surfaces which are inappropriate for this type of footwear (gravel lanes, grass lawns, flagstone walks, etc). Like any design decision, one must weigh the frequency and type of intended use before choosing a material for the job. Lou Host-Jablonski, AIA Host-Jablonski Architects 2088 Atwood Avenue Madison, WI 53704 608- 246-8849 (voice) 608- 246-8670 (fax) lou-vic@execpc.com LouH-J@execpc.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 1 10:26:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27725 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:26:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22955; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:19:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:15:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22646 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:15:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from webserve.kvinc.com ([207.100.217.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA22641 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by webserve.kvinc.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BE63CC.95D1DEB0@webserve.kvinc.com>; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:16:35 -0500 Message-ID: From: Susan Szalla To: "'greenbuilding@crest.org'" , "'Lou Host-Jablonski'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Grasscrete Pavers Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:16:33 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I have a client that is interested in this type of product as well. Here is my question; Are there any major issues of oil, gas, etc., leaking off the cars and into the soil? With this consideration, wouldn't a parking area that treats the run off somehow be more environmentally friendly? Regardless, who are some of the major manufactures of the various pavers that you mentioned? >---------- >From: Lou Host-Jablonski[SMTP:louh-j@mail.execpc.com] >Sent: Monday, March 01, 1999 9:59 AM >To: greenbuilding@crest.org >Subject: RE: GBlist: Grasscrete Pavers > >>>>>We're doing a project with 6 off-street parking spaces. Hate to cover >>>>>over >that much green space, and wondered if anyone on the list has real-world >experience with "Grasscrete" pavers - these are cast concrete shapes with a >hole in the middle, which theoretically will support soil and plant life >but offer enough support for vehicles. The project is in Maine, where >frost can heave paving stones and people need to plow snow - two objections >I've heard about Grasscrete pavers, but without firsthand knowledge. Of >course, a lot of porous fill below might help with the frost problem, but >wouldn't be so great an environment for plant life. Any reports of >experience with this product would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. > >David Foley >Holland and Foley Building Design<<<< > > >David, > >We've used porous pavings on a number of projects. Our experience with the >concrete type is mixed; while durable, the concrete seems to wick moisture >away from the roots of the grass, so we havn't had much success in >maintaining healthy grass. And this is in Wisconsin (USA), where we have >plenty of moisture. > >We've used a plastic-ring type of product (said to be recycled material, >from a firm in Colorado) for the parking area at the Arbor House >(http://www.execpc.com/~designco/features/arbor-hs/arbhs.htm). These >support grass well. Sorry, I'm at my home machine, without the company >name and address; I'll try to remember to look up this info at the office. >We're also about to install another recycled plastic porous paver for >overflow parking for a different project, this one made by Presto Products >in Appleton, Wisconsin (we're supporting local/regional businesses!). This >one interlocks very well, and looks more sturdy. > >Snow removal is an issue. If the situation demands clear, bare, hard paving >year round, a grass surface is clearly not the appropriate choice. These >surfaces can be plowed, just not scraped bare. There are many uses however >which do not require this level of snow removal. In Madison, Wisconsin, as >an example, we have lots of snow and very good municipal snow removal, but >we commonly drive on residential streets that have several inches of packed >snow during winter months. > >As for high heels, there are many surfaces which are inappropriate for this >type of footwear (gravel lanes, grass lawns, flagstone walks, etc). Like >any design decision, one must weigh the frequency and type of intended use >before choosing a material for the job. > > >Lou Host-Jablonski, AIA >Host-Jablonski Architects >2088 Atwood Avenue >Madison, WI 53704 > >608- 246-8849 (voice) >608- 246-8670 (fax) > >lou-vic@execpc.com >LouH-J@execpc.com >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 1 10:45:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA28396 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:45:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26766; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:38:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:33:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26321 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:33:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from x16.boston.juno.com (x16.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26314 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:33:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from shardon5@juno.com) by x16.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D4MTWZMF; Mon, 01 Mar 1999 10:35:06 EST To: acourtri@linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us Cc: pyost@nahbrc.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 07:45:57 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: rain water harvesting Message-ID: <19990301.083211.-211311.0.shardon5@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3,5,7,10 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: sharon j emley Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I don't know if you are interested in do-it-yourself solutions but Dan Dorsey in Tucson designed a cistern for home-owners on a budget. This design is being distributed by the the Arizona Dept. of Water Resources. It is basically a ring of field fencing in a sand bed lined with something like old carpet with the container being polyethylene or other plastic or pond type liner. In 1995, when he prepared the design, he calculated the cost of his materials for a 550 gallon cistern at $63. Don Arkin ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 1 14:52:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04377 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:52:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA17902; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:43:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:37:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA17397 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:36:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA17393 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:36:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:34:18 -0500 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF44A4A9@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: GBlist: Reducing pH in wastewater Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:34:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hello Listers: Can anyone offer suggestions on reducing the pH in wastewater? Here are the specifics: > We are working on a project that consists of demolishing concrete using > highpressure water (hydrodemolition). The waste water product has a pH > level ranging from 11 to 12 . The Owner has requested a revision to the > specifications, decreasing the pH level requirements to 9.5. Two > solutions proposed include treating the water by mixing in acid (sulfuric > or hydrochloric) or by adding carbon dioxide (carbonic acid) to decrease > the pH. > > We are currently transitioning phases and have a 2-3 week window to set up > an operational treatment system. > > If you have any experience with a similar water treatment system, we would > appreciate any input and/or feedback you could provide. > Thank you, Drew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Drew George, Green Building Champion Bovis Construction Corp 7475 Wisconsin Avenue, 10th Floor Bethesda MD 20814 USA Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 http://www.bovis.com Drew.George@Bovis.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 1 15:43:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05677 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:43:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21405; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:35:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:30:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA20955 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:30:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from math.mit.edu (MATH.MIT.EDU [18.87.0.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA20951 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:30:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from severi.mit.edu (SEVERI.MIT.EDU [18.87.0.68]) by math.mit.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11715 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:32:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from julie@localhost) by severi.mit.edu (8.8.7/8.6.9) id PAA18935; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:32:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:32:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903012032.PAA18935@severi.mit.edu> From: Julie Rehmeyer To: greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <36D95DFB.3C67DF3D@cow-net.com> (message from JOHN SALMEN on Sun, 28 Feb 1999 07:17:15 -0800) Subject: Re: GBlist: stone foundations Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Thanks fo all for the helpful responses. We came up with a somewhat different idea which seems even better to us. The south and east walls of our house will be the most visible long-term (an addition will take over most of the west wall, and the north wall is in the back and not very visible. The downstairs east and south walls are also frame, so the foundation doesn't need to be as wide. So we thought that we could do a shallow frost-protected foundation of the same width on all four walls, and on the south and east walls we can go back at a later time and add a stone "foundation" on top of the footing on the outside of the wall. I hope that makes sense -- the frame walls will be to the inside of the footing, so there will be about 10" of footing left on the outside of the frame walls, which we can put rock on. Th advantages we saw were: - minimal concrete use -- it would have been hard to do the detailing of the insulation for a shallow frost-protected foundation if we were using stone - stone will protect the mud plaster on the lower walls - the stone is non-structural, so it is more likely that the stone on our site will work - the stonework will come at the end of the project rather than the beginning; this seems advantageous because we won't have a time-consuming project when there is still a lot ahead of us - we'll have the visual advantages of stone where it will have most impact Any thoughts? It looks good to us at the moment. Thanks again for your thoughts -- they were very, very helpful. Julie ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 1 16:08:18 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA06497 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:08:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA23182; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:00:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:55:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA22705 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:55:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (7.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA22697 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:55:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.161]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 3511200 ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:46:13 -0800 Message-ID: <36DAFF02.3C104E2B@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 12:56:35 -0800 From: JOHN SALMEN X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Racheli & John CC: Greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Information on floors References: <199903010312.DAA109728@out2.ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I was about to reply with some specific information when it struck me that if you are looking for greenbuilding alternatives your first initiative would be to support (and be supported by) a professional greenbuilder. Rather than looking for sources of information outside a conventional builders experience you should benefit by having someone who is actually working with you in finding solutions. It is one thing to participate in a forum but it is even better to have clients who are willing to participate in green initiatives.- kind of gets the ball rolling. regarding the question there is difficulty in getting initial slab pours to an acceptable level of finish and then maintaining that during the course of construction. There are however mats designed for construction traffic that can be used to seal the floor. Other alternatives include pouring a finish coat (1" or so) which I like as more care can be taken on the finish and less colourant is used (if batch mixed). Cutting and polishing the surface is also a good option (if the equipment and expertise is available locally) best of luck john Racheli Gai wrote: > Hi Green Builders, > > I'm researching floors for my cohousing community > in Tucson, AZ. > I would like to get recommendations for inexpensive > (non/low toxic) alternatives to synthetic wall to wall carpeting. > I'm especially interested in finding out whether polished > colored concrete floors are an affordable alternative: > Since many of the units will have a slab on grade, it > seems that making the concrete attractive enough so there > is no need to cover it with something else is the > most environmentally friendly thing to do. Our > potential builder has been insisting, though, that this > alternative is too expensive because the construction > workers need to take special precautions to protect > the slab during the rest of the building process. > So, how expensive are such concrete floors? > And what other options have we got? > > Awaiting enlightenment... > > Racheli Gai > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 1 17:31:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA10139 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:31:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA29154; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:23:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:17:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA28618 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:17:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28614 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:17:44 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id 6XFFa02498 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:19:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <21a2dfba.36db1258@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:19:04 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Fireplaces, etc. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0.1 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Friends, Any good advice or tips on zero clearance and other prefab fireplaces? I've generally tried to avoid fireplaces in favor of wood stoves when folks wanted combustion in their living spaces. My instinct is to prefer a masonary fireplace for my current client who insists that a woodstove is not good. As always these days, the budget is too tight. Any experience anyone wishes to share on technology, manufacturers, costs, installation, tricks of the trade, or general advice? Thanks in advance. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 1 18:20:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11716 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:20:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03667; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:12:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:08:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03028 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:07:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03024; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:07:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (slip166-72-225-148.az.us.ibm.net [166.72.225.148]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA148262; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 23:09:42 GMT Message-Id: <199903012309.XAA148262@out2.ibm.net> To: JOHN SALMEN , JOHN SALMEN , Racheli & John , Greenbuilding@crest.org, owner-greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 2.5) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:11:32 MST From: Racheli Gai Reply-To: John Palmer Subject: GBlist: Floors and Cohousing Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk ** Reply to note from JOHN SALMEN Mon, 01 Mar 1999 12:56:35 -0800 Hi John, You wrote: > I was about to reply with some specific information when it struck me that > if you are looking for greenbuilding alternatives your first initiative > would be to support (and be supported by) a professional greenbuilder. > Rather than looking for sources of information outside a conventional > builders experience you should benefit by having someone who is actually > working with you in finding solutions. It is one thing to participate in a > forum but it is even better to have clients who are willing to participate > in green initiatives.- kind of gets the ball rolling. *** I don't essentially disagree with anything you said. The course of action you suggest is what I would take if I was building my own house. Being a part of a cohousing group, however, is a completely different kind of thing. I don't have the time to get into details right now, but the system within which I'm operating isn't overwhelmingly "environmental". Also, affordability is a greater issue for some of us than for others. We are spending a whole lot of money simply to abide by endless city regulations, and the $$$ left for environmental "upgrading" are limited. This is just the tip of the iceberg, but the gist of it is that all I can do is try to introduce some piecemeal improvements, with the hope that some of them will actually get carried out. I find myself fairly aggravated quite often, but I think that influencing people is a long process which will continue after we move into our far from perfect houses. Every change for the better I or somebody else introduces gets multiplied by 35 (units), and all and all we will probably push the city beaurocrats some in the right direction, so the next project will be able to push the envelope some more. In the process, we educate our own members - which is a very different experience from the kind of "preaching to the choir" that most activism ends up being much of the time. Now, about that "specific information" you were going to give me about floors... thanks, Racheli. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 1 18:20:28 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11721 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:20:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA03708; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:12:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:08:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03117 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:08:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03098 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:08:23 -0500 (EST) From: Rkfabf@aol.com Received: from Rkfabf@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id WWGOa04795; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:07:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <7a48dd0b.36db1d98@aol.com> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:07:04 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: FUnger@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Fireplaces, etc. Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated 3/1/99 4:23:52 PM Central Standard Time, FUnger@aol.com writes: << Any experience anyone wishes to share on technology, manufacturers, costs, installation, tricks of the trade, or general advice? >> You could try the following resource: http://www.chimneys.com This site also includes the text of BURNING SECRECTS which discusses wood stoves, fireplaces, liners, gas and oil appliances and much more. Find out what you need to know by clicking on: http://www.chimneys.com/burnsec Regards, Cathy Flanders IAQ List Manager & Moderator Fax: 972-527-6608 rkfabf@aol.com IAQ List (to subscribe) http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/iaq Candles and Indoor Air Quality http://www.fiscorp.net/iaq/ The Home Owner's Candle Soot Damage Bulletin Board http://disc.server.com/Indices/41692.html ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 1 18:27:22 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA11889 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:27:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA04291; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:19:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:15:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA03893 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:15:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlas.pathcom.com (pathway1.pathcom.com [209.250.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA03888 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:15:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from timex.pathcom.com (ts43l12.pathcom.com [209.250.145.165]) by atlas.pathcom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA17660; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:20:37 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903012320.SAA17660@atlas.pathcom.com> From: timex@pathcom.com To: JOHN SALMEN Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:23:44 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Information on floors Reply-to: timex@pathcom.com CC: Greenbuilding@crest.org In-reply-to: <36DAFF02.3C104E2B@cow-net.com> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk John: > but it is even better to have clients who are willing to participate > in green initiatives.- kind of gets the ball rolling. > It would be even nicer to be able to find a builder that used and had some knowledge of green building practises. So far, I have had three contractors all of a sudden be too busy to take the job when I started talking (and questioning their knowledge of) green building practises. Is there some special place that people like on this list advertise? Even those in the local newspapers and yellow pages that say they use energy efficient and green building practices seem to be 'one-trick ponies' who have found one little thing that makes them think they can get away with saying this, and they have never seemingly participated in any form of on-going education, nor do they wish to. I am very discouraged. marilyn Cybercrone http://www.pathcom.com/~timex/ Don't get even. . . get odd! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 1 19:32:36 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA16256 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:32:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA08844; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:24:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:20:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA08387 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:20:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from ham.nw.verio.net (ham.nw.verio.net [204.200.239.254]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA08302 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:19:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp441.whatcom.pacificrim.net ([199.236.228.187]) by ham.nw.verio.net with smtp (Exim 2.05 #3) id 10HctR-0005PQ-00; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:18:39 -0800 X-Sender: rdubrow1@mail.pacificrim.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: carlw@re-sources.org, bobbi@mtbaker.wednet.edu, ecomort@aol.com, jmcdaniel@cob.org, mrkain@telcomplus.net, frankjames@pacificrim.net, gabrownmd@nas.com From: rdubrow1@pacificrim.net (Rick Dubrow) Subject: GBlist: Fwd: Seeking Recycling Intern Cc: ecobuild@wolfenet.com, fentonp@pacificrim.net, fentonp@pacificrim.net, cwebb@az.com, dlaws@az.com, MRobe681@aol.com, fentonp@pacificrim.net, mfmiller@pacificrim.net, petera@insightmanagement.com, chuck@villagebooks.com, carlw@re-sources.org, bobbi@mtbaker.wednet.edu, ecomort@aol.com, jmcdaniel@cob.org, mrkain@telcomplus.net, frankjames@pacificrim.net, gabrownmd@nas.com, adaptors@pacificrim.net, jbohl2@juno.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, larry@nnrg.org, nwebg@egroups.com, sustcon@yahoo.com, TNS@NaturalStep.org, jeffx@certifiedwood.org, 71634.217@compuserve.com Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:18:39 -0800 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk >Envelope-to: rdubrow1@pacificrim.net >Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:46:36 -0800 (PST) >From: Margo Covington >Subject: Fwd: Seeking Recycling Intern >To: abad@lanl.gov, moore@santafe.edu, grnforum@majordomo.nmia.com, > sfgreens@roadrunner.com, lauran@trail.com, ltaylor_rhaspel@compuserve.com, > mitchb@trail.com, tns@naturalstep.org, TNSCOMAPP-L@gbms01.uwgb.edu, > yzaidman@ashoka.org >Reply-to: tnscomapp-l@gbms01.uwgb.edu >MIME-version: 1.0 >X-Originating-IP: [153.37.249.228] >Comments: TNS Community Applications >Status: > > >Subject: Seeking Recycling Intern > >Job Announcement: >I am looking for a bachelor's or master's degree student to work >approximately half-time as the Recycling Intern for the New Mexico >Environment Department. The position is in Santa Fe. If you know of a >good candidate, please encourage him/her to apply. >Below, please find the position description. >Thanks, Cathy > >Job Description >Recycling/HHW Intern >NMED/SWB >Position - State recycling intern. Approximately half-time employment. >Pay range: $9 - $13, depending on qualifications. > >Projects >1. America Recycles Day - Coordinate New Mexico Environment Department's >participation in America Recycles Day '98. Participate as a steering >committee member. Assist with event development and overall program >execution. Assist with press release writing and dissemination. > >2. State Recycling Program - Coordinate ongoing education for >State-agency recycling program. Develop and implement improvements and >new recycling programs. Lead/facilitate waste reduction, reuse and >recycling policy development. > >3. New Mexico Recycling Coalition - Assist with recycling and household >hazardous waste (HHW) projects, meeting coordination, and hosting of >BioCycle Conference in the spring of '99 in Albuquerque. > >4. Legislation Research and Development - Assist with the acquisition >of other states' legislation on recycling, HHW and market development. >Assist with the development of legislation for New Mexico. > >5. Other projects as identified by the intern and State Recycling/HHW >Coordinator. > >Tasks - Coordinating meetings, taking notes at meetings, doing research >over the internet, presenting information at meetings or training, >faxing, using word processing software (WordPerfect and MS Word), >answering phone inquiries on recycling and HHW, typing, and filing. > >Skills - Strong organizational and communications skills a must. >Typing, filing, note taking, telephone and interpersonal skills. >Experience in recycling is desired, but not necessary. > >Working Conditions - Usually an office setting in Santa Fe (Runnels >Building). Work will occasionally necessitate the intern driving to >Albuquerque for meetings or facility tours. Occasional walk-throughs or >tours of other regional solid waste facilities may be needed. > >Candidate Qualifications - Must be in school seeking a bachelor's or >within one year of starting a master's degree. (No minimum number of >school hours is required.) Minimum GPA of 2.5 for undergraduates, 3.0 >for graduate students. > >Applications - Must be received by March 20. >Send resume and cover letter to : >Cathy Tyson, State Recycling & HHW Coordinator >New Mexico Environment Dept. - SWB >P.O. Box 26110 >Santa Fe, NM 87502 > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 1 21:46:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA01792 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:46:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16047; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:38:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:34:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA15707 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:33:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhost.capecod.net (mailhost.capecod.net [204.255.214.21]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA15701 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:33:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrbh.capecod.net (camb0742.capecod.net [209.244.246.234]) by mailhost.capecod.net (8.9.3/8.9.1/Debian/GNU) with SMTP id VAA32138 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:33:56 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990301214033.006afa80@capecod.net> X-Sender: mrbh@capecod.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 21:40:33 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Bruce Hammond/Megan Ryan Subject: GBlist: Does wool carpet produce indoor air pollution? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I have read enough about synthetic carpeting to know I don't want it in my house. Does anyone know if wool carpet is much better for indoor air quality? Thank you! Bruce Hammond P.O. Box 2798 Vineyard Haven, MA 02568-2798 (508) 696-9510(h) (508) 693-6287 (w) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 1 21:57:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA03475 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:57:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA16830; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:50:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:46:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16462 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16454 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:45:51 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ643733; Mon, 1 Mar 99 19:47:39 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA50620; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:47:08 -0700 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:47:08 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: FUnger@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Fireplaces, etc. In-Reply-To: <21a2dfba.36db1258@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Fred: We have monitored the inputs and outputs of our masonry heater for the past 5 years. This winter we have used about 0.45 cord of wood (that was destined for the landfill).We use it for space heating (ie. radiant), hydronic radiant floor heating), hot water, passive solar heating in winter, summer cooling (if necessary), and food cooking. As with everything else it comes with strengths and weaknesses. Experience is better than day dreaming. Jorg Ostrowski ________________________________________________________________________ On Mon, 1 Mar 1999 FUnger@aol.com wrote: > > Friends, > > Any good advice or tips on zero clearance and other prefab fireplaces? I've > generally tried to avoid fireplaces in favor of wood stoves when folks wanted > combustion in their living spaces. My instinct is to prefer a masonary > fireplace for my current client who insists that a woodstove is not good. As > always these days, the budget is too tight. Any experience anyone wishes to > share on technology, manufacturers, costs, installation, tricks of the trade, > or general advice? Thanks in advance. > > Fred > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 2 01:28:26 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA07434 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 01:28:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA26284; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 01:20:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 01:16:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA26004 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 01:16:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from tembo.ud.co.tz (root@[208.136.144.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA26000 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 01:16:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from byabato.udsm.ac.tz ([208.136.144.44]) by tembo.ud.co.tz (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA01858; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:13:18 +0300 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990301080144.00693088@tembo.ud.co.tz> X-Sender: byabato@tembo.ud.co.tz X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 08:01:44 +0300 To: bg4gls@loop.com From: "Kamugisha A. W. BYABATO" Subject: Re: GBlist: "Efficiency" vs Climate Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <36D96D6D.7D11@loop.com> References: <199902280700.CAA00766@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id BAA26001 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hello GB Listers >First, let me confess I am in Southern California. I live in a house >that is mostly powered by Boulder Dam and was built in 1947 with no >thought of insulation. > Now let me also first confess that I live in the Tropics. A hot and humid city at sea level called Dar es Salaam in Tanzania > >[I know there are similar questions to be proposed about warm climates >and the excessive use of air conditioning, etc. But lets save that for >later.] > When do you propose to begin discussion on these super-"warm climates"?. Just to add on a few comments by Norbert and de Lombard, have you figured how you would make your tents stand each season of migration?. Most tropical trees grow slower than their temperate cousins. How about other consumable natural resources? Or do you intend toconcentrate the whole world's population to between Lat 20 and 40 deg.? And that will have to be North Only because most of the Southern equivalant is Sea. Environment Conservation is a compromise. Any mass movement of people on the surface of the earth is a catastrophe. To learn about this first hand, please come over to the Great Lakes part of Tanzania, East Africa and see the environmental damage caused by the refugee influx during the Rwanda Crisis of 1994. Best regards Kam At 08:23 28-02-99 -0800, you wrote: >Dear GB Listers, >First, let me confess I am in Southern California. I live in a house >that is mostly powered by Boulder Dam and was built in 1947 with no >thought of insulation. > >Yes, it is 73° on Feb 28th. But *that* is not my fault. > >At the risk of being branded a temperate climate chauvinist, I would >like to get your input on something that has been going through my mind >since I subscribed to this list about a year ago. > >A large portion of the discussion in this group (and the content of many >websites and the work of several government agencies) is devoted to the >relative efficiency of methods of keeping humans comfortable in climates >that are too cold to "support life" during some portion of the year. > >I'm wondering if any of you have studied the theoretical question of >whether it makes sense, from a resources conservation standpoint, for >people to live above 40° N latitude (an arbitrary #) in the winter? > >If we were still nomadic and could simply move everybody south in the >winter, would we cut down fewer trees, need less oil, consume fewer >watts? If we could simply keep the window open all year would we need to >concern ourselves with indoor air quality and sick building syndrome? > >Perhaps the question is: If we could work it out so the we could all >live comfortably in tents all year, would we (and the earth) all be >better off? > >[I know there are similar questions to be proposed about warm climates >and the excessive use of air conditioning, etc. But lets save that for >later.] > > >Respectfully submitted, >Bob Galbreath >Geo-Lite Systems >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 2 09:10:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12853 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:10:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10302; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:03:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:58:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA09848 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:58:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA09844 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:58:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id IAA0000026439; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:00:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990302140341.0075a388@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 08:03:41 -0600 To: JChance From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Propane waterheaters/generators Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk After wrestling considerably with the alternatives, we've just had delivered an Aquastar demand heater which we will place in a small shed outside the tight building envelope and adjacent to the bathroom. Enlightened consensus seems to be that gas fired appliances are best not left inside a dwelling place (although I won't give up my gas stove). The heater will be vertically ducted to the outside. Had we bought a conventional gas heater, it too would have been placed in the shed, which is tight and well insulated. I've used demand heaters before, and like them. I also like the idea of not having to replace it too soon, as I would a conventional heater, because it doesn't have a tank which our hard water would corrode (albeit the heat exchanger is copper but I'm led to understand that moving water should not deposit damaging minerals at the rate sitting water would) . I need to figure out the least expensive best method of keeping the thing from freezing but then I would have that same problem with the other type of tank--and also need to make sure it has sufficient oxygen to burn---. The best thing about it is that if it works as we expect, we probably will move it to the main house once that can be occupied and place a smaller unit in the cabin. My main advice for would-be buyers is to make sure you place the heater near where it will be used and be sure to use the manufacturer's recommended size gas line to feed it. It cost us $200 more than the lesser efficient alternative and I expect it to make up that cost in use over the next four years, maybe less. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 2 09:40:03 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13391 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:40:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12054; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:32:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:28:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11707 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:28:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (root@kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11702 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:28:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.52 (pm1-20.hoosier.net [206.106.67.52]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA32434; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:29:47 -0500 Message-ID: <36DBAF88.331@bloomington.in.us> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:29:48 +0000 From: John Bower Reply-To: healthy@bloomington.in.us Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Hammond/Megan Ryan CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Does wool carpet produce indoor air pollution? References: <3.0.1.32.19990301214033.006afa80@capecod.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Bruce Hammond/Megan Ryan wrote: > > I have read enough about synthetic carpeting to know I don't want it > in my house. Does anyone know if wool carpet is much better for indoor > air quality? Thank you! It could be treated with nasty mothproofing compounds, and it can still become a haven for millions of microorganisms per square foot. Area rugs are better because they can be removed and cleaned much easier. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 2 09:44:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13477 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:44:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12467; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:36:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:33:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA12096 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:32:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12088 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:32:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.198.85.220] (pm0a11.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.75]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21403; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:34:47 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) [209.198.85.220] from pm0a11.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.75] 207.136.199.75 Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:34:47 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: nmalin@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990301214033.006afa80@capecod.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:37:13 -0500 To: Bruce Hammond/Megan Ryan , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: Does wool carpet produce indoor air pollution? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk >At 9:40 PM -0500 3/1/99, Bruce Hammond/Megan Ryan wrote: >I have read enough about synthetic carpeting to know I don't want it in my >house. Does anyone know if wool carpet is much better for indoor air >quality? Thank you! >Bruce Hammond >P.O. Box 2798 >Vineyard Haven, MA 02568-2798 >(508) 696-9510(h) >(508) 693-6287 (w) > Hi Bruce, Wool carpet does not release the petrochemical VOCs found in synthetic carpets (mostly from the SB latex backing). However, most wool carpet is treated with mothproofing agents, which are also somewhat toxic. The most common mothproofing ingredient is permethrin, which is also used in anti-lice shampoos. I believe that permethrin is a synthesized version of pyrethrin, which is a chrysanthemum derivative. There are specialty suppliers that offer chemical-free carpet, but then you run the risk of inviting moths into your home, especially if the carpet is partially located in dark, untraveled spaces. Check out Nature's Carpet from Collin Campbell & Sons: 800/667-5001, http://www.colcam.com The same product is available from Naturlich Flooring & Interiors: http://www.monitor.net/~nathome In some cases, even treated carpet may be susceptible. See our article on moth problems at the Audubon HQ for details: http://www.ebuild.com/Archives/Other_Copy/Audubonmoth.html Since you are using it in a house, you probably wouldn't be using adhesive to install it, so you don't have to worry about that potential source of VOCs. But you will likely be using a carpet pad, and should pay attention to that potential source as well. Good luck! Nadav Malin Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 2 11:14:06 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA15716 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:14:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19174; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:06:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:02:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18725 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:01:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18720 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:01:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA08154; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 07:59:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 07:59:39 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Courtright To: timex@pathcom.com cc: JOHN SALMEN , Greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Information on floors In-Reply-To: <199903012320.SAA17660@atlas.pathcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, 1 Mar 1999 timex@pathcom.com wrote: > Is there some special place that people like on this list advertise? Even > those in the local newspapers and yellow pages that say they use energy > efficient and green building practices seem to be 'one-trick ponies' who > have found one little thing that makes them think they can get away with > saying this, and they have never seemingly participated in any form of > on-going education, nor do they wish to. If you do find that special place, or a method of finding THINKING/LEARNING green builders, I do hope you'll share the knowledge. -|//*Alan Courtright*\\|= Poulsbo, WA acourtri@krl.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 2 11:46:07 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16314 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:46:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA21409; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:38:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:34:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA21036 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:33:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA21031 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:33:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id KAA01487 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:34:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from vna-va12-12.ix.netcom.com(207.223.178.76) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma029280; Tue Mar 2 10:11:44 1999 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990302111953.008b8d10@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 11:19:53 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Fuel / energy content / "heat rate" / efficiency Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Utility-connected Renewable Generation ==== Alas, there is no "free lunch" and some transmission and generation losses would contribute to inefficiency converting and transferring the "greener" source energy through to the site where it is consumed. Example -- Wind generated power still has: dynamic conversion inefficiency, machine friction and heat losses, DC - AC inversion where applicable, power conditioning, stepup to mains voltage, wires loss, stepdown to local voltage, metering, etc., all considerably reducing the overall process efficiency. In many real cases might not "green power" from a utility also be mixed with other source-fuels power? So if the utility base load was 90% coal, and then it provided 10% via hydro and wind, would it still be "green?" Better to envision utilities becoming more environmentally sound by degree. Their adopting efficiency and renewable generating measures to reduce their overall service heat rate value is one indicator (except be careful of the nuclear twist). One needs to recognize that production electrical power will often be greener by degree. Careful study is needed of offer sheets disclosing just how much renewable energy is provided in your "green power." On site generated power (not grid connected) would have a different economics entirely. ===== Life cycle Assessment would be used to analyze this The initial investment (energy device, mounts, wires, etc.) plus maintenance, down-time opportunity cost, power conditioning, storage losses (where applicable), and decommissioning costs (battery disposal, metals recycling, etc.) would be compared over the useful life cycle (roughly equal to the expected life of the major components) of the renewable power system benefits -- electrical power output for local consumption. One could also include a societal benefit factor in this since many of the avoided costs of pollution (when one does not consume polluting power supplies) are known. Considerable literature on the societal costs of energy "externalities" exists so I won't babble on here... >------- >Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 09:44:56 +0000 >From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) >Subject: Re: GBlist: Fuel / energy content / "heat rate" / efficiency > >Wouldn't electricity generated from the kinetic energy of wind and water >have a source BTU consumption of zero since nothing is burned? >Malcolm >-------------- >Bion wrote: >The issue of energy content of fuels and "heat rate" of electric power >generation and transmission is often quite confusing, I know it took me >a while to come to grips with the various units, efficiency issues, and >"source -v- site" problem (opportunity/) -- so a couple of hopefully >helpful comments: > > 1. A source Btu of electric power is not _always_ 11,600 Btu/kWh >but rather varies in a range of approx. 9,400 Btu/kWh to over 15,000 >Btu/kWh > || =(O) = Environmental Building Consulting Services || Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA === note revised e-mail address above === ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 2 13:27:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18729 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:27:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA29571; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:18:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:14:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA29059 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:13:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA29050 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:13:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-119-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.119]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA01007 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:15:54 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990302131555.007adc20@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 13:15:55 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re:Fireplaces In-Reply-To: <199903020700.CAA27652@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk >Subject: GBlist: Fireplaces, etc. > >Friends, > >Any good advice or tips on zero clearance and other prefab fireplaces? I've >generally tried to avoid fireplaces in favor of wood stoves when folks wanted >combustion in their living spaces. My instinct is to prefer a masonary >fireplace for my current client who insists that a woodstove is not good. As >always these days, the budget is too tight. Any experience anyone wishes to >share on technology, manufacturers, costs, installation, tricks of the trade, >or general advice? Thanks in advance. > >Fred Fred -- I did a blower door test on a house that had a Vermont Castings built-in fireplace (really a woodstove trimmed out to look like a fireplace built into the wall) with an outside air combustion duct, and it was very tight to the interior of the house. I don't recall finding any air leakage I could detect. I have no experience running the thing, but it did seem (at least when new) to be well isolated from the living space. Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc 45 Perkins Rd. Montpelier VT 05602 802.229.5676 Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc 45 Perkins Rd. Montpelier VT 05602 802.229.5676 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 2 16:44:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA23511 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:44:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA14917; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:34:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:28:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA14167 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:27:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA14155 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:27:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id D4Q2K633; Tue, 02 Mar 1999 16:29:14 EST To: mrbh@capecod.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:29:49 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Does wool carpet produce indoor air pollution? Message-ID: <19990302.162950.9182.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <3.0.1.32.19990301214033.006afa80@capecod.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-6,10-11,13-14,17-18,22-23,26-30 From: "Beverly A. Weiter" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Bruce The answer to your question depends on several items. Firstly, a number of people are allergic to wool. We recently had to replace all the wool carpet in a house because the new owners were both sensitive to the lanolin. Secondly, some wools are better than others. You should look for higher quality wools with jute back if you are really concerned with air quality. Often the source of emissions is the backing - not the carpet itself. Thirdly, be aware of any treatments that might have been used in the manufacturing process, such as for moths etc. The beauty of wool is its durability. Wool carpets tend to last much longer. This, however can be a two edged sword as it means any dirt or dust mites trapped in them will remain many more years. Nadav suggested Nature's Carpet. Warning, it is very expensive because it is a. all organic and b. high embodied energy due to lots of travel and handling before coming to market. We have had good luck with Bremworth and Bellbridge out of Ga. - both are on jute backing. Lastly, I concur with John - area rugs are better and what we generally recommend to our clients, particularly those who are chemically sensitive. Beverly A. Weiter Environs Interiors Boca Raton, FL ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 2 16:54:03 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA23705 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:54:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA15714; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:45:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:40:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA15203 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:39:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA15198 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:39:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id D4Q3AVJZ; Tue, 02 Mar 1999 16:41:38 EST To: acourtri@linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:36:28 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Information on floors Message-ID: <19990302.164208.9182.3.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-1,5-10 From: "Beverly A. Weiter" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I don't know about the rest of you but I found the Nation Green Pages is one good place to advertise. I have a listing in several categories and get calls from all over the US. They also include a listing on their web site and for an extra few $ a link to my site. I am currently researching "hot linking" to other "green" websites. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 2 17:41:30 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA24915 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:41:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18450; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:32:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:28:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA18020 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:28:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA18016 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:28:22 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv18.1) id CUEKa03212; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:24:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:24:28 EST To: environs.com@juno.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Information on the net Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Beverly's remark prompted a thought! (One a day, every day)...When the net first started, virtual libraries were established, mostly 'housed' at universities. They become repositories for great information in different areas...business, law, environment, etc. The environment virtual library was housed at the University of Virginia but has spun off into a non-profit. It is a wealth of info on a number of issues that we all deal with. I encourage you to take a look at earthsystems.org: Educating the Earth Phil Bailey/SustainAbility ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 2 21:46:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA28649 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:46:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05627; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:37:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:33:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA04981 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:33:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA04976 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:33:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.99] (newhenyusr0-a99.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.99]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA18736; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:35:10 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:34:46 -0500 To: Greenbuilding discussion list From: CN Subject: GBlist: Propane waterheaters/generators Cc: JChance Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Chazz, For my particular tank water heater, all combustion air and exhaust is kept on the outside of the house as the heater is mounted right in the wall. It was designed for RVs. There is no air connection with the inside air. I think this is called a sealed system. Most hot water heaters do not operate this way. You would need ventilation for the bathroom (at minimum an air inlet) if you used any non-sealed combustion unit. And you would probably also want to look into how air/exhaust for the heater might interact with other bathroom ventilation systems. Most modern houses have active bathroom ventilation, which could cause problems with a tightly closed bathroom containing a standard non-sealed heater. I'm not sure, but I think the Targa on-demand heater is also a sealed unit. The other on-demand heaters I am familiar with are not sealed. Get ahold of some of John Brower's books about Healthy Houses and specifically about ventilation. They will tell you all you need to know about these matters. He has a web page and his organization is called The Healthy House Institute. Chris --------- >Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:10:47 -0800 From: JChance Subject: Re: GBlist: Propane waterheaters/generators >Chris: Thank you for your detailed description of the pros and cons of tank vs on demand waterheaters. I am in the process of designing a home to be started next spring and have been wrestling with both options. I was intregued concerning your description of keeping the bathroom heated by the tank system. Would some type of ventilation system also be necessary given the tank is in an enclosed space. My concern is also based on my plans to build a strawbale home which means it will be rather tight in terms of air exchange. Thanks again for the information. Chazz ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Mar 2 22:18:05 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA29104 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:18:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA08593; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:10:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:06:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08059 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:05:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from animas.frontier.net (root@frontier.net [199.45.141.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08050 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:05:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontier.net (dro-4-185.frontier.net [199.45.211.185]) by animas.frontier.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25416 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:07:54 -0700 Message-ID: <36DCA6EC.3A5474A8@frontier.net> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 20:05:16 -0700 From: Barry Goldberg X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Propane waterheaters/generators References: <199902280700.CAA00766@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk If I'm putting in a boiler for radiant heat, how do you think using a side arm tank for domestic hot water fits in this continuum of energy efficiency? And is it cost effective? How about if I'm going to put in a solar water heater, sooner or later, depending on finances? Thanks -- Barry Goldberg barryg@frontier.net Durango,Co The softest thing in the world overcomes the hardest thing in the world. That which is without substance can enter even where there is no space. (Tao The Ching) ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 07:53:03 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA05634 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:53:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA29909; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:45:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:41:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA29635 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:41:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA29631 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:41:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from kbell (pool-207-205-128-23.atln.grid.net [207.205.128.23]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA00666; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:43:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003201be6573$d5b054a0$1780cdcf@kbell> From: "Karlene" To: , , "Beverly A. Weiter" Subject: Re: GBlist: Information on floors Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:46:16 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi Beverly - What's the web addr. for the Green Pages? And yours too,( if you care to give it!) ;-) Karlene >I don't know about the rest of you but I found the Nation Green Pages is one good place to advertise. I have a listing in several categories ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 08:12:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA05818 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:12:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA00816; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:05:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:01:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA00451 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:01:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA00447 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:01:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from Alisa (arc0a105.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.105]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA25143; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:03:13 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) Alisa from arc0a105.wrj.sover.net [209.198.95.105] 209.198.95.105 Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:03:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990303080314.0069bfa4@mail.sover.net> X-Sender: dsagan@mail.sover.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 08:03:14 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Danny Sagan Subject: GBlist: South Dakota Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <21a2dfba.36db1258@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hello there folks, Does anyone out there know of builders in the Spearfish, South Dakota area. I am looking for someone more on the lines of a conventional builder who is committed to good construction and energy and resource efficiency within the framework of conventional stick-framing .I am also open , but the client may not be ,to suggest someone with experience with rammed earth ,straw-bale , or timber-frame. Any leads are appreciated. Thanks in advance. Danny Sagan Randolph Ctr VT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 10:02:08 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA07684 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:02:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06690; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:54:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:50:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06342 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:50:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.greenbuilder.com ([216.171.28.121]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06338 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:50:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com ([216.171.28.123] verified) by mail2.greenbuilder.com (Stalker SMTP Server 1.6) with SMTP id S.0000098049 for ; Wed, 03 Mar 1999 08:48:55 +0000 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 99 09:07:42 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: GBlist: production cob workshop To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <6252767.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk "Production Cob" for 6 only Must have completed a cob workshop or have comparable experience. How much does making cob really cost? You can accelerate cob wall building. An intensive cob wall building workshop will be held southwest of Austin, Texas, at Ledgestone, a prototype Eco-Settlement in-progress on 9 acres, March 20-23. The foundation and first 6 feet of wall of this two-story structure are in place. Help experiment and quantify different mixing and placing techniques. Bring your own ideas and test them out with experienced cob leaders. $300 tuition includes primitive campsites, composting toilets, cooking your food by campfire. Tipi and tent available for a nominal fee. To register, contact Yvonne Hansen or phone 512/447-0459. -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 10:42:52 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA08993 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:42:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA09224; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:35:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:31:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08790 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:30:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from deep-thought.best1.net (deep-thought.best1.net [205.162.253.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08786 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:30:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.162.253.64] (d71.best1.net [205.162.253.91]) by deep-thought.best1.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA13489 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:33:25 -0800 X-Sender: smcgrath@mail.best1.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:34:46 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Subject: GBlist: day care Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk i need an archirect with experience in design of day care facilities, infant through preschool, in Calif for a project near Bakersfield any leads? ______________ Steve McGrath McGrath Associates Build America Radio News Magazine http://www.buildamerica.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 11:27:49 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10209 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:27:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12570; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:20:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:16:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12126 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:15:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12122 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:15:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (slip166-72-225-24.az.us.ibm.net [166.72.225.24]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA32206; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:17:40 GMT Message-Id: <199903031617.QAA32206@out4.ibm.net> To: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath), Greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 2.5) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:20:19 MST From: Racheli Gai Reply-To: John Palmer Subject: Re: GBlist: day care Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Addressed to: smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Greenbuilding@crest.org ** Reply to note from smcgrath@buildamerica.com (Steve McGrath) Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:34:46 -0800 >From Racheli Gai Hi Steve, Katie McCammant and Chuck Durrett of The CoHousing Company also specialize in the design of daycare facilities. They are located at 1250 Addison St, #113, Berkeley CA 94702. Phone: (510) 549-9980 . Hope this helps. R. > i need an archirect with experience in design of day care facilities, > infant through preschool, in Calif for a project near Bakersfield > > any leads? > > ______________ > Steve McGrath > McGrath Associates > Build America Radio News Magazine > http://www.buildamerica.com > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 11:45:24 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10624 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:45:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14272; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:37:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:33:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13463 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:33:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from stevie.loop.com (stevie-inet.loop.com [207.211.60.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13459 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:33:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from loop.com (p05.hwts11.loop.net [207.211.62.110]) by stevie.loop.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA16928 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:36:40 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36DD59DE.194A2938@loop.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 07:48:48 -0800 From: Bob G Reply-To: bg4gls@loop.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: water heaters inside vs outside References: <199903030700.CAA17193@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk If you are building under a permit you should check out, up front, what your local code says about drawing combustion air from inside the building. Some codes simply will not permit it in any amount regardless of the square footage or relative tightness. This is a "hot button" for building inspectors in CA. Bob Galbreath Geo-Lite Systems ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 11:45:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10633 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:45:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14304; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:37:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:33:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13484 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:33:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from stevie.loop.com (stevie-inet.loop.com [207.211.60.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13472 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from loop.com (p05.hwts11.loop.net [207.211.62.110]) by stevie.loop.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA16944 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:36:49 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36DD6432.15E85C5A@loop.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 08:32:55 -0800 From: Bob G Reply-To: bg4gls@loop.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Alternatives to earth floors / radiant heat References: <199903030700.CAA17193@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I found Joshua Alden's suggestion of earth floors interesting. I have been in houses in Southeast Asia with earth floors that were amazingly clean. I am also a big fan of compacted, decomposed granite used in landscaping and of tessera [small (approximately 2" x 2" x 2") dry-set, stone blocks] used for paving in Portugal. All these things have the ability to be taken up for maintenance of things underneath and then replaced. It also seems like it might make a good thermal mass for radiant heat. Is anybody familiar with a "loose" floor material like this that might be acceptable for interior use? Bob in LA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 11:45:42 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA10638 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:45:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA14324; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:38:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:33:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13478 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:33:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from stevie.loop.com (stevie-inet.loop.com [207.211.60.71]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13470 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:33:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from loop.com (p05.hwts11.loop.net [207.211.62.110]) by stevie.loop.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA16934 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:36:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36DD5F95.FA8E1057@loop.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 08:13:12 -0800 From: Bob G Reply-To: bg4gls@loop.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: "Efficiency" vs Climate References: <199903030700.CAA17193@solstice.crest.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Thanks to those who responded to my theoretical question. In retrospect I believe I was being too oblique in phrasing it. What I think I really am wondering is: Am I , a person living in a grossly inefficient house but in a temperate climate without the need for much in the way of heating and cooling, consuming the earth's resources at rate that is greater / equal / lower than a person living in an efficient house in a climate that requires lots of heating or cooling? Bob in LA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 12:41:47 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00518 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:41:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA18973; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:34:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:29:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18460 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:29:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from m2.jersey.juno.com (m2.jersey.juno.com [209.67.34.60]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18456 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:29:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from environs.com@juno.com) by m2.jersey.juno.com (queuemail) id D4S7DRLU; Wed, 03 Mar 1999 12:31:36 EST To: bellstudio@mindspring.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:32:11 -0500 Subject: Re: GBlist: Information on floors Message-ID: <19990303.123212.9814.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> References: <003201be6573$d5b054a0$1780cdcf@kbell> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-14,16-22 From: "Beverly A. Weiter" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:46:16 -0500 "Karlene" writes: >Hi Beverly - What's the web addr. for the Green Pages? And yours >too,( if >you care to give it!) ;-) Karlene > >>I don't know about the rest of you but I found the Nation Green Pages >is >one good place to advertise. I have a listing in several categories > Hi, Karlene, Green Pages on line is at www.coopamerica.org and my personal web page is www.environsinteriors.com. Thanks for asking. Let me know what you think. Beverly Weiter Environs Interiors 21000 Boca Rio Rd. Suite C-2 Boca Raton, FL > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 12:53:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00731 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:53:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20130; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:45:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:41:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19519 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:41:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19507; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:40:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id LAA02865; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:32:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from vna-va12-45.ix.netcom.com(207.223.178.109) by dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma002539; Wed Mar 3 11:31:16 1999 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990303123925.008c7870@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 12:39:25 -0500 To: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Affordable Comfort 99 - details on line! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Coming Soon -- Affordable Comfort 99 -- Dates: April 19 - 24, 1999 *> final details available on line <* ===================================== Apologies to those of you who may get this twice ===================================== Please do not miss out on what may be the best conference of the year concerning energy efficient housing with a special focus on diagnostics, HERS implementation, lower income programs, an excellent trade show, and a great springtime location - The "Windy City" - Chicago ! Find out more about the Affordable Comfort 99 Conference at their newly updated web site hosted by CREST (yup, the same folks that host this list, and groups like EEBA and the Alliance to Save Energy) which is located at ==> AC-99 = ...where you can review all the exciting program elements, and via this link too you may sign up using a simple, secure credit card form. Do check out the program available on line -- Affordable Comfort's speakers list reads like a virtual "Who's Who"(c) in energy and environmental building! Note: Special room rates and other cool stuff is available through March 19, 1999. The Conference Hotel has a special rate -- $129 -- ( special? I'll say, for Chicago...!) Hyatt Regency O'Hare || good only through March 19 !! || 9300 W. Bryn Mawr Avenue Rosemont, IL 60018 847-696-1234 847-698-0139 (fax) I can't wait to see you there ! Best Wishes from, Bion Howard, ACI Board Member ---- * "Who's Who"(c) copyright Citation Press, Inc. Glenview IL ---- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 13:01:33 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00860 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:01:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21103; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:53:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:49:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20431 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:49:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20423 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:49:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from which.net ([194.168.99.48]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA10304 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:57:55 +0000 Message-ID: <36DD1379.5A180621@which.net> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:48:25 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Propane waterheaters/generators Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk A hot water storage tank heated by gas is a lot more energy efficient than a tank heated by dirty electricity. Unless you can and do buy mostly green electricity, your gas boiler will consume less fuel than the power station does. A well insulated storage tank will waste waste very little heat. You solar water heater will require a well insulated storage tank of its own. Installing two tanks either side by side or one above the other, in the same closet, at the same time including the plumbing, with the second tank heated by the boiler, will save time and resources overall. Malcolm Barry Goldberg wrote: If I'm putting in a boiler for radiant heat, how do you think using a side arm tank for domestic hot water fits in this continuum of energy efficiency? And is it cost effective? How about if I'm going to put in a solar water heater, sooner or later, depending on finances? Thanks ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 13:01:52 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00865 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:01:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21123; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:54:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:49:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20450 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:49:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1-gui.server.which.net (mail1-gui.server.which.net [194.168.97.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20444 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:49:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from which.net ([194.168.99.48]) by mail1-gui.server.which.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO203-101c) ID# 0-33929U70000L2S50) with ESMTP id AAA10314 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:58:01 +0000 Message-ID: <36DD292A.3D3EAB20@which.net> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 12:20:58 +0000 From: malcolm.scott@which.net (malcolm.scott@which.net) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: Fuel / energy content / "heat rate" / efficiency Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Obviously there are losses en route but I don't see that this affects the source BTU figure. It just means having to generate a little more to get what you want. You have still burned nothing. I have seen nothing on the energy involved in building the turbines compared to building other types of generator, so I can't comment on that. I believe wind power can be supplied for very little more cost than coal or gas. We have to ask suppliers for it and nothing else, then they will compete for our custom. With the free for all called de-regulation we have the opportunity to do that. Of course 10% by hydro and wind is not green. Apparently at least 30% can be provided by wind without need for storage. If you have hydro as well then you have storage and 100% can then be from wind. Malcolm Bion wrote: Example -- Wind generated power still has: dynamic conversion inefficiency, machine friction and heat losses, DC - AC inversion where applicable, power conditioning, step-up to mains voltage, wires loss, step-down to local voltage, metering, etc., all considerably reducing the overall process efficiency. In many real cases might not "green power" from a utility also be mixed with other source-fuels power? So if the utility base load was 90% coal, and then it provided 10% via hydro and wind, would it still be "green?" Better to envision utilities becoming more environmentally sound by degree. Their adopting efficiency and renewable generating measures to reduce their overall service heat rate value is one indicator (except be careful of the nuclear twist). ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 14:29:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA03331 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:29:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA27708; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:21:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:16:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26986 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:16:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.enteract.com (thor.enteract.com [207.229.143.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26969 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:15:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 14885 invoked from network); 3 Mar 1999 19:17:37 -0000 Received: from gardnet-router.soho.enteract.com (HELO gard.com) (207.229.163.110) by thor.enteract.com with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 19:17:37 -0000 Received: from jg-abacus [192.168.0.5] by gard.com [207.229.163.105] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP5.R) for ; Wed, 03 Mar 1999 12:59:26 -0600 From: "Jason Glazer" Organization: GARD Analytics To: asep-net@aesp.org, ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, energysoft@crest.org Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:04:43 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: GBlist: New Mailing List for Building Simulation Users X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Return-Path: JGlazer@gard.com Reply-To: JGlazer@gard.com Message-ID: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk BLDG-SIM Mailing List --------------------- http://www.gard.com/ml/bldg-sim.htm BLDG-SIM is a new mailing list for users of building energy simulation programs. Building energy simulation programs allow users to estimate the energy use and operating cost of residential, commercial and other types of buildings. This allows engineers, architects and others in the building design trade to compare alternative designs and select the design that is cost justified. They are frequently used during the design process when choosing between alternatives in the components that make up a building including insulation level, heating and cooling distribution systems, furnaces, boilers and air conditioning equipment. The web page for this mailing list is located at: http://www.gard.com/ml/bldg-sim.htm Examples of building simulation programs include DOE-2, Trace- 600, HAP, Blast, ESP, SERIRES, TRNSYS, TASE, Energy-10, and others (see link below for a more complete list). http://www.eren.doe.gov/buildings/tools_directory/ Since the users of building energy simulation programs are spread across the world, this mailing list is an attempt to foster the development of a community of those users. Experienced and inexperienced users of building energy simulation programs are welcome and are expected to share their questions and insights about these programs. Currently no FAQ is available. Posting Guidelines ------------------ Any subscriber can post any message on the mailing list. Please indicate in the subject line what simulation program you are asking about. The host and owner of this list is not moderating, filtering or editing any message sent to the list. Instead the subscribers to the list should follow these simple guidelines: - Be courteous. - No discussion not related to building energy and building energy simulation. - Announcements of new versions of building simulation products are welcome and encouraged but are restricted to one posting per month.. - Do not try to sell any other products on the mailing list (no spam is tolerated). - Job announcements are welcome but are restricted to one posting per month. The owner of this list may remove anyone from the list that violates these rules. Subscribing/Unsubscribing/Posting --------------------------------- To subscribe to the list, send an blank message to: bldg-sim-subscribe@gard.com To unsubscribe to the list, send an blank message to: bldg-sim-unsubscribe@gard.com To send a message to all subscribers to the list, address your message to: bldg-sim@gard.com Please read keep this message so you know how to subscribe, cancel or change your subscription in the future. Questions --------- If you have any questions, please contact the list owner: Jason Glazer jglazer@gard.com 847-698-5686 Comments and suggestions are welcome. You are encouraged to distribute this announcement as long as it retains all the information included. The BLDG-SIM mailing list is made possible by GARD Analytics. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 14:36:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA03618 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:36:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28476; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:29:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:24:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28007 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:24:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28003 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:24:31 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ652756; Wed, 3 Mar 99 12:26:07 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA107812; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:25:13 -0700 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:25:13 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: "Beverly A. Weiter" Cc: bellstudio@mindspring.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Information on floors In-Reply-To: <19990303.123212.9814.0.ENVIRONS.COM@juno.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk There is a supplier of sustainably certified wood flooring out of Ontario, in case any Canadians are interested. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 14:51:04 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04121 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:50:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29719; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:42:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:38:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA29085 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:38:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA29071 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:38:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (STD1.2/BZS-8-1.0) id OAA19155; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:39:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA26887; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:39:29 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:39:29 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Bathroom Beams/Light In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id OAA29074 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Speireag Alden wrote: > Hallo, all. > > As it turns out, I have two large oaken beams high up in the > bathroom area, crossing through it. Should I leave these as they > are, or should I treat them in some way to defend them against > moisture? Yes. Both. But, this isn't the highest priority and the beams may be a most interesting feature (deserves more thought) - certainly a useful structure for a staging area to get at the ceiling vents and whatever else is going on upstairs. What's the size and location of the exhaust fan? (near the peak?) What's the orientation and tilt of the glazing? > One runs the length of where the bathtub will be, so it > will be subjected to substantial airborne vapor several times per > day, though there will be an exhaust fan right adjacent to it. > > Thoughts? > > -Speireag. > --------------)<<<<0 > Speireag Alden, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden > Joshua.M.Alden.91@alum.dartmouth.org > Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. > Nach sgrìobhaidh thugam 'sa Gàidhlig? > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > To receive the next edition of the Environmental Review, send, subscribe er-list, to ; for Solar Utilities info, send, subscribe solar_utilities ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 14:51:09 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04097 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:50:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29698; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:42:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:37:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28994 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:37:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.mindspring.com (smtp1.mindspring.com [207.69.200.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28990 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:37:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from kbell (pool-207-205-238-156.atln.grid.net [207.205.238.156]) by smtp1.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA24385 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:37:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <002d01be65ad$c0cc13a0$9ceecdcf@kbell> From: "Karlene" To: Subject: GBlist: reverse metering Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:40:22 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi - I am thinking about investing in solar panels, just as a sunny day power supply, not with the added expense of batteries, as we have a small generator for emergencies. In doing my research, l just tallked to the friendly folks at Carolina Power & Light about the possibility of selling them any excess power we might generate during sunny days. Well..... They require a separate meter, $100 +2% a month, and will only pay $.02 per kwh - wheras I am paying close to $ .10 on the inflow meter. Does this seem fair? Is this the usual practice? What other experience does anyone have? Thanks, Karlene ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 15:03:07 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04485 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:03:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00653; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:54:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:48:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA00079 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:48:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.mindspring.com (smtp1.mindspring.com [207.69.200.31]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00047 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:47:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from kbell (pool-207-205-238-156.atln.grid.net [207.205.238.156]) by smtp1.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA26367; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:49:34 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004501be65af$63a51d00$9ceecdcf@kbell> From: "Karlene" To: "Karlene" , Subject: Re: GBlist: reverse metering Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:52:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Oh I forgot. There's also a $7 a month "Seller Charge" KB -- > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 15:17:36 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04850 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:17:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA01645; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:09:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:04:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01198 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:04:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.paltech.com (ns.paltech.com [198.69.130.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01194 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:04:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip11.dialup.paltech.com [198.69.130.30]) by mail.paltech.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-36796U2500L250S0) with SMTP id AAA60 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:10:13 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990303151530.007d4d30@paltech.com> X-Sender: herector@paltech.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 15:15:30 -0500 To: From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: reverse metering In-Reply-To: <002d01be65ad$c0cc13a0$9ceecdcf@kbell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Well, they do have a synchronization and power quality problem that independent generation would make more difficult. They also have Vice Presidents in charge of Changes for No Apparent Reason who need to work effectively with the Vice Presidents in charge of Irrelevant Details. ... Harry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 15:21:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA04991 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:21:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA02095; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:13:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:09:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA01601 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:09:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from out3.ibm.net (out3.ibm.net [204.146.28.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA01592 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:09:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by out3.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA71908 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:15:07 GMT Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (slip166-72-225-21.az.us.ibm.net [166.72.225.21]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA42930 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:10:08 GMT Message-Id: <199903032010.UAA42930@out4.ibm.net> To: Greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 2.5) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:12:48 MST From: Racheli Gai Reply-To: John Palmer Subject: GBlist: Earth floors Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk EARTH FLOORS If you want to know how to make an earth floor, get a copy of "Earthen Floors" ($8.50 + $1.50 shipping - or at least that's how much it cost when I got my copy). It's published by The Canelo Project. Their address: HC1 Box 324 Elgin, AZ 85611 (520) 455-9360 email: absteen@dakotacom.net The earth floor which I've seen - at Athena and Bill Steen's home - was not the loose earth variety. It looked somewhat like a smooth mud plaster with flecks of straw in it, and had a sheen as a result of having received many coats of a sealant (a mixture of linseed oil and turpentine). It was beautiful, and is supposed to be easy to maintain, and much easier to repair than, say, concrete. The Strawbale Book has a photograph of an earth floor. Also, the Permaculture Drylands Institute Journal had an article about constructing such a floor about 2 years ago. They had a photograph, too - where the floor looked much shinier, because the builder chose to seal it with some acrylic gook (is my bias showing?)... There isn't one formula for constructing an earth floor. What will go into your mixture will depend on the specific characteristics of the soil on your site, and your particular needs and wants. Also, how complicated the floor is will depend on whether you need to worry about drainage; wheter you want to add radiant floor tubing, etc. The Strawbale Book mentions one woman who constructs earth floors for people professionally. I don't know if there are other outfits who provide this service. Racheli Gai. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Mar 3 16:24:21 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA07237 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:24:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA06519; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:14:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:07:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA05762 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:07:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA05758 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:07:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (STD1.2/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA05353; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:09:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA04068; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:09:08 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:09:08 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: Karlene Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, solar@rnn.com Subject: Re: GBlist: reverse metering/net metering In-Reply-To: <002d01be65ad$c0cc13a0$9ceecdcf@kbell> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk States, interested in developing renewable solar energy, are getting legislation, rules and regulations, or third party funders, stepping in, to guarantee 1:1 grid interconnected PV. $.02 is the old avoided cost idea. However described, its happening - distributed generation, emerging solar rooftop technology, utility restructured competitive alternative energy, green consumer market driven aggregated power supply systems, new value-added energy service, etc. - do a "solar energy" search, and look for "net metering" on gov. or industry web pages. On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Karlene wrote: > Hi - I am thinking about investing in solar panels, just as a sunny day > power supply, not with the added expense of batteries, as we have a small > generator for emergencies. In doing my research, l just tallked to the > friendly folks at Carolina Power & Light about the possibility of selling > them any excess power we might generate during sunny days. Well..... > They require a separate meter, $100 +2% a month, and will only pay $.02 > per kwh - wheras I am paying close to $ .10 on the inflow meter. > Does this seem fair? Is this the usual practice? What other experience > does anyone have? > Thanks, Karlene > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. for Solar Utilities info, send, "subscribe solar_utilities" to ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 4 01:42:30 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA28312 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:42:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA01326; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:31:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:27:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA00980 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:27:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from dub-img-6.compuserve.com (dub-img-6.compuserve.com [149.174.206.136]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA00976 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:27:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailgate@localhost) by dub-img-6.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.18) id BAA00290 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:28:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:28:25 -0500 From: Scott Shell Subject: Re: GBlist: Info on concrete floors To: GBlist Message-ID: <199903040128_MC2-6CA4-6522@compuserve.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id BAA00977 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I'm working on a school project with exposed concrete floors and have been looking at the question of protecting them during construction. First of all we saved quite a bit of money switching from linoleum to colored conrete (Our estimator says $4.00/sf vs $1.00/sf). There are at least three ways to color concrete. 1. Integral color added to the concrete at the batch plant, often used for precast and formed concrete. It gives a homogenous color, but bright or rich colors are more difficult since it takes so much pigment. 2. Broadcast topping added to the slab surface during finishing, this gives a fairly homogenous color, around 1/8" thick and often includes a hardener as well for excellent durability. It provides rich colors and is often used on slabs. 3. A colored stain applied to cured concrete. This can wear through in high traffic areas, but probably not in a residential setting. It gives a more varied or mottled look depending on the varying densities, etc of the slab. I think it looks great over an old slab or a slab that has been subject to a "dirty" construction process, expressing the history and true character of the material. But this is definitely a matter of personal taste. If you wanted a clean look, the slab could be bead blasted, shot blasted, or sand blasted first, though this has additional cost and environmental impacts. Two manufacturers I've worked with are Scofield and Conrad Sovig. There are also a wide variety of self-leveling topping compounds applied late in the construction process that may be able to be colored. By the way, since most flyashes are lighter in color than cement, a high volume flyash mix may permit more vibrant colors. We've been getting promising results with a 50% flyash mix design in an ongoing testing program. In our San Francisco School project, and even more so in Arizona, the exposed slab can provide a good source of mass for storing the coolth available at night for increased comfort the following day. I do know of several residentail clients who installed stained concrete floors and then carpet over them a year later for comfort reasons. Perhaps area rugs are a good solution to this. Good luck with your project. Scott Shell EHDD Architects ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 4 01:52:03 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA28386 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:52:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA01848; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:44:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:40:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA01556 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:39:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA01552 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:39:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.244.128.45] (rkd021.acadia.net [208.244.128.45]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id BAA10359 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:41:59 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:40:31 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: Information on floors Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Following up on Speireag's suggestion about earthern floors, you may wish to study the work of David Easton, a builder in California with extensive experience in soil-cement construction. He and his partner Cynthia Wright have made floors from earth stabilized with a small amount of Portland cement. I've visited two of their buildings in Napa, California, and the floors are especially beautiful. You can find David's book, The Rammed Earth House, through many sources, including the Iris Catalogue I think. Best of luck. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 p: (207) 338-9869 f: (207) 338-9859 e: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 4 07:33:16 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA00823 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:33:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA11404; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:25:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:21:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA10969 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA10957; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:20:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp012.cd.centuryinter.net (ppp012.cd.centuryinter.net [209.142.147.84]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA23037; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 06:21:55 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36DEAC6A.24C6@centuryinter.net> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 07:53:14 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Reply-To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: coblist@deatech.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: looking for examples of long lived natural structures Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I am working on an article about natural building as it relates to building codes. I would like to include some examples of long lived naturally constructed buildings. Any suggestions? Thanks. Keith -- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 4 09:33:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA02424 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:33:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA15953; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:25:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:19:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15452 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:19:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from out3.ibm.net (out3.ibm.net [204.146.28.13]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15448 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:19:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by out3.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA26388 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:25:00 GMT Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (slip166-72-225-73.az.us.ibm.net [166.72.225.73]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id OAA11162; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:19:24 GMT Message-Id: <199903041419.OAA11162@out4.ibm.net> To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley), Greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 2.5) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:22:06 MST From: Racheli Gai Reply-To: John Palmer Subject: Re: GBlist: Information on floors Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Addressed to: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Greenbuilding@crest.org ** Reply to note from dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:40:31 -0400 >From Racheli Gai David Foley wrote: > Following up on Speireag's suggestion about earthern floors, you may wish > to study the work of David Easton, a builder in California with extensive > experience in soil-cement construction. He and his partner Cynthia Wright > have made floors from earth stabilized with a small amount of Portland > cement. I've visited two of their buildings in Napa, California, and the > floors are especially beautiful. You can find David's book, The Rammed > Earth House, through many sources, including the Iris Catalogue I think. > Best of luck. *** The Rammed Earth House book is available also through the Real Goods catalogue . R. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 4 10:04:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA03003 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:04:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA17171; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:48:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:43:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA16789 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:43:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA16767 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:43:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on8-16.netcom.ca [209.146.133.16]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA23286; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:44:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990304094016.009f2f00@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 09:43:45 -0400 To: bg4gls@loop.com From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: "Efficiency" vs Climate Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <36DD5F95.FA8E1057@loop.com> References: <199903030700.CAA17193@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 08:13 AM 03/03/99 -0800, you wrote: (snip) >Am I , a person living in a grossly inefficient house but in a temperate >climate without the need for much in the way of heating and cooling, >consuming the earth's resources at rate that is greater / equal / lower >than a person living in an efficient house in a climate that requires >lots of heating or cooling? More......way more. See http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub/research/lcahome/index.html Now, about your car..... Best...........Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 4 11:50:57 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA06274 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:50:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25827; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:43:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:37:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA25058 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:37:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from rmc1.crocker.com (root@rmc1.crocker.com [204.97.12.50]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA25054 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:36:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.246.4.143] (iplink170.crocker.com [205.246.4.170]) by rmc1.crocker.com (8.8.6/8.9.2) with SMTP id LAA28702 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:43:12 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:45:58 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: brucecol@crocker.com (Bruce Coldham) Subject: GBlist: Re: "Efficiency" vs Climate Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Bob Wrote.... >Am I , a person living in a grossly inefficient house but in a temperate >climate without the need for much in the way of heating and cooling, >consuming the earth's resources at rate that is greater / equal / lower >than a person living in an efficient house in a climate that requires >lots of heating or cooling? >Bob in LA Bob, how do you know? Is this wishfull thinking? Blind faith? ... or have you actually figured it out? Bruce Coldham ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 4 14:05:59 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA09898 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:05:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06510; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:58:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:52:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05928 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:51:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from airmail.arb.ca.gov ([146.114.20.220]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA05924 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:51:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from arb.ca.gov ([146.114.11.17]) by airmail.arb.ca.gov (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6314; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:52:47 -0800 Message-ID: <36DED76B.C2E5F677@arb.ca.gov> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 10:56:44 -0800 From: "Thomas Phillips" Organization: CARB/RD, Indoor Air Quality and Personal Exposure Assessment Program X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Karlene , GREENBLDGLIST Subject: GBlist: reverse metering Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Karlene: California has a fairly new buydown program for PV and other emerging technologies, which I looked into but seemed too expensive for my modest electrical load: http://www.energy.ca.gov/greengrid/index.html The program is run by the California Energy Commission, which may have answers to your specific questions or suggestions on how to solve your problem with the local utility. Tom -- Thomas J. Phillips CARB/RD, 2020 L St., POB 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 916.322.7145/4357 FAX IAQ guidelines: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor/indoor.htm Research summaries: http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/indoor/resnotes.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 4 14:47:53 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA10921 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA11220; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:40:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:34:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA10480 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:34:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from virtualmaster3-int.prodigy.net (virtualmaster3-ext.prodigy.net [207.115.59.137]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA10460 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:34:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from prodigy.net (QNCYB104-17.splitrock.net [209.156.196.113]) by virtualmaster3-int.prodigy.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA274196; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:36:03 -0500 Message-ID: <36DEE08F.DBD088EE@prodigy.net> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 14:35:43 -0500 From: Alan Page Reply-To: AFMO@prodigy.net Organization: A Forest Maintenance Org., LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Renewable News Network CC: "Viderman, Stephen" , "building, green" , "tns-consultant@igc.org" , "foresters, z" Subject: GBlist: Re: Janitors and Judgements References: Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4E3B1230C62BD4868AF52A0D" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4E3B1230C62BD4868AF52A0D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was at the meeting where Ms. Hillary Brown discussed her work to promote the 'greening' of the NYC building situation. Many of the observations were interesting. I firmly believe that janitors may well know more about "their" buildings than the architects do. Just as loggers know more about what is do able with their equipment than a professional forester. I was most impressed with MS. Brown's courage to oppose the status quo. Her lack of headway toward true sustainability was most interesting and disappointing. It was interesting also that when the audience was asked for suggestions about what to do in Boston, my suggestions (below) didn't make it on to the list: 1) make buildings energy sources rather than energy sinks 2) make buildings pollution sinks rather than sources 3) make buildings experiential sources rather than expertise sinks 4) make buildings living centers rather than places that people visit only to work The technology is there to do these things. It however has not received the support and marketing that fossil fuels and fossil fuel using systems have. As a forester it is extremely important to me that urban planners begin to develop ways for urban residents to understand how the world really works (not just how our politically determined economic system functions). The strength of the urban veto on things like the trapping law (Question 1 several years ago) is devastating to rural communities and the sustainable portions of life therein. (The beaver problems in western MA are going to become real nightmares in the near future.) When an urban community acts as if all its effects are covered by the economic costs of decisions (Ms. Brown had to work within the least cost envelop most of the time), it has no way of investigating the effects of those decisions on sustainable life elsewhere. (Wendell Berry makes the point that money does not "grow" food - farmers and the cooperation of all growth factors do. In the absence of the cooperation (availability and appropriuate timing) of the growth factors, no amount of money will grow very much food. Because of the decisions of many earlier global traders the NE has already lost 30% of all commercial forest trees. The present global economy is imperiling the rest of these species to fractions of their present condition if it continues for very much longer. Urban residents are now dependent on the global economy for all their resources because most local producers have been marginalized by those who are able to use massive amounts of energy to eliminate people from the production process. In doing this we have made most of humanity ignorant of just how fragile the thread that life hangs by is. The only way out of this dilemma is for all humans to begin to become responsible for producing most of the energy they use. Since most people now live in cities this is where we must concentrate our efforts. There are many ways for us to do this. They are not cheap. But the urgency must first be understood. Most don't even want to think about it. Where do we start? Alan Page ____________________ Dear Sarah, You are absolutely right. I was not at the meeting. We can, however, enjoy a virtual participation in the process, to the extent that the note takers are willing to share the salient points. And so, thanks for all your networking work. It is most valuable. As for my comments, I'd say most people, who are drawn to TNS, are unabashedly "high-minded decision makers," if only in their personal lives. Likewise, many people are continuously trying to find a logical grounding, or a basis, statistical or otherwise, for a change in behavior. I hope you're not going to require me to apologize for pointing out the obvious. "Talking to the janitors" was left off the list, because, in my judgement, there is an "untouchable" aspect to those tasks, or maybe its just too mundane, too ordinary, too boring. We'll have to get over this. I've done janitorial work, and I've been made to feel humiliated; but the degradation is in the fact that there are people, who are willing to perform such a service to humanity, while others deign only to supervise. The janitorial work, itself, is interesting - not as interesting as a string quartet in a garden on a Sunday afternoon - but, its certainly instructive, if there's a mess is to be cleaned up and prevented in the future. Here's what I think: I have no idea what people "really' think. I can sometimes hear what they say and see what they do. When a person says they are flying in from New York for a meeting, that's what they will say; but what I see that person doing, is sitting on their ass for several hours, and talking about how we are really going places. ...and we are. Yours truly, Ross "All natural functions must be respected." -Bertrand Russell encl: On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, George Mokray wrote: > Sarah James wrote: > > >It is regrettable, however, that judgments have apparently been made about > >the orientation of the Roundtable speaker, with regard to this approach, > >and have been made by persons who were not even present at the event nor > >heard what the speaker had to say. I know the speaker - Hillary Brown - > >and also know that she is most committed to a participatory design > >approach, and could not be less of a "high-minded decision-maker with no > >grounding". I'm sure, Ross, if you were in attendance, that you would not > >have come to such a false judgment. George, as the notetaker at the event > >who inadvertantly missed recording your comment about involving the > >janitors, my apologies. Yes, the janitors should be involved - and, lets > >not rush so quickly to judgment about what people really think or practice. > > Let me make it clear that I meant no disparagement to Hillary Brown or > Sarah James in reporting my impressions of the last Sustainability > Roundtable. I introduced myself at that meeting as "a fool and a failure" > and meant it. Hell, I don't even listen to what I say more than half the > time. > > What is interesting to me is that "talking to the janitors" was the ONE > thing that didn't go up on the board, as if the "sustainability community" > has a blind spot. The resulting discussion on this list with various > people trying to fit the concept of "talking to the janitors" into the TNS > system principles rather than reporting concrete instances of janitorial > conversations or imagining what such conversations might be confirms my > suspicion that the "sustainability community" is really avoiding > nitty-gritty reality. I think we are all susceptible to this particular > ailment, myself included. > > I apologize to Sarah James and Hillary Brown if I have caused them any > discomfort. From what I've seen both of them do good work. > > --------------4E3B1230C62BD4868AF52A0D Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="AFMO.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Alan Page Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="AFMO.vcf" begin:vcard n:Page;Alan x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:A Forest Maintenance Organization version:2.1 email;internet:AFMO@prodigy.net title:Manager note:Web Page: http://pages.prodigy.net/afmo x-mozilla-cpt:;0 fn:Page, Alan end:vcard --------------4E3B1230C62BD4868AF52A0D-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 4 15:41:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA12420 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:41:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16158; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:33:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:28:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15525 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:27:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15512 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:27:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.107] (newhenyusr0-a107.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.107]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA06987 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:28:01 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:32:18 -0500 To: Greenbuilding discussion list From: CN Subject: GBlist: reverse metering Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Harry replied: Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 15:15:30 -0500 From: Harry Rector Subject: Re: GBlist: reverse metering Well, they do have a synchronization and power quality problem that independent generation would make more difficult. They also have Vice Presidents in charge of Changes for No Apparent Reason who need to work effectively with the Vice Presidents in charge of Irrelevant Details. ... Harry ----------- Actually, todays inverters produce substantially better quality power than any utility and have no problem with synchronization (otherwise they would self-destruct). And an excuse you didn't mention, safety, is also a red herring. When the grid power is down, utility crews still have to assume that individual houses might be backfeeding to the grid and energizing it, because there are plenty of people with back-up gas generators who may not have them properly installed. Anyone with a solar or other alternative power generation system will have a much more fail-safe inverter which would automatically shut off power to the grid during any grid failure. One of California's big utilities tested these inverters and found that they met the most stringent standards for safety and compatibility with the grid. Look to the "Vice Presidents" and to financial self-interest as the reasons utilities put up roadblocks to grid-intertie systems. But even if you could get net metering for a photovoltaic system, it would never pay for itself in a grid-intertie situation at todays prices for PVs and utility power. You would simply be making a political and/or moral statement. Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Mar 4 23:13:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA21097 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:13:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA15339; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:05:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:00:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA14960 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:00:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA14956 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000030864; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:02:29 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990305040533.0075ebe8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 22:05:33 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Construction Stress on Trees Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk A subject near and dear to my heart should also be of interest to many of you, this just arrived via my Master Gardener program: Sacie Lambertson Construction and Its Stress on Trees, from Down the Garden Path, the newsletter by the Purdue Plant and Pest Diagnostic Lab. "Three years ago I built a new home on a wooded lot and now my trees are dying? What's wrong with them?" This is a common question following new home construction. Unfortunately, trees don't die immediately from the root stress created from construction. Symptoms may not become apparent for two to five years. This is referred to as delayed symptom expression. As the construction process occurs, different types of stress factors may affect root systems. First, as the foundation is being dug many roots from nearby trees are severed. Roots grow in the top 12 inches of the soil and spread horizontally at least two to three times the height of the tree. For example, the root system of a 50-foot tree would extend 150 feet from the trunk and cover most of the soil in the top 12 inches of soil. Therefore, digging foundations, sidewalks, or driveways drastically reduces the major feeder roots of nearby trees. Without these roots the trees are not able to take up the water and nutrients that are essential for growth. During the growing season, this root loss places stress on the trees as they try to overcome the injuries by using stored carbohydrate reserves. This process weakens the trees and makes them more susceptible to insect and disease invasions. Second, during the construction process soil is moved and compacted by large machinery. The resulting soil conditions are in sharp contrast to the previous soil conditions of the virgin soil in the wooded area. Soil in a wooded area is composed of layers or horizons that are rich in nutrients and organic matter. This component of forest soil is missing after new home construction because of the removal of the topsoil. Chemical reactions take place in this layer of soil that enable trees to absorb nutrients, such as nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium, magnesium, manganese, aluminum, boron, molybdenum to name a few. Without these nutrients in sufficient quantities, trees will languish and eventually die. Third, soil from a wooded area is soft and easily penetrated by the roots. Open spaces or pores in the soil are filled with oxygen, another necessary component of root growth. When valuable topsoil is removed and replaced by subsoil dug from the foundation, it is compacted, nutrient poor, and lacking in oxygen. Soil consists of various sized particles with sand being the largest, silt the next, and clay the smallest. By comparison, think of sand as the size of a basketball, silt a baseball, and clay a marble. Air spaces are between these particles. Soil must contain 12 percent oxygen for roots to grow. Soil particles, after compaction, are pressed together leaving only two to five percent of the necessary oxygen in the spaces between soil particles. Therefore, once the soil is ready for the home, sidewalk, and driveway, it is no longer suitable for root growth. So, why does it take from two to five years for some trees to die? As the yearly process of photosynthesis occurs, trees store carbohydrates for next year's growth. If a tree was growing well before construction, it was storing energy for the coming year. When that process is interrupted by root damage and soil changes, the tree begins to use up reserves and cannot replace them. Eventually the tree declines and usually succumbs to insects and diseases due to its weakened condition. Protecting the root system during construction can prevent problems later. If you will be building a new home soon, consider consulting an arborist that specializes in preventing construction damage. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 09:12:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA26365 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:12:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09357; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:04:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:59:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA08988 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:59:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA08980 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:59:41 -0500 (EST) From: Caaradrbl@aol.com Received: from Caaradrbl@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id 6TZWa17028 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:01:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <6812fc77.36dfe3aa@aol.com> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:01:14 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #509 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL for Macintosh sub 189 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk In a message datedSpeireag Alden writes > Frankly, I don't need the ability to reduce logs to chips, since >I can get chips from local companies for free and otherwise I can >find other uses for sticks (containing a compost pile, for instance, >or burning, or throwing on the pile where the porcupines live). So why is it that you need another machine that turns 20 pounds of wood into 20 pounds of wood when you can get it for free? Not owning another manufactured item is far preferable thatn chipping sticks for compost. If it's and either/or, skip the compost and recycle your organic and sticks at the nearest recycling center (hopefully there is one). Or add your organic to a neighbors. Skip the machinery. In a message dated Thu, 04 Mar 1999 07:53:14 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Writes >I am working on an article about natural building as it relates to >building codes. I would like to include some examples of long lived >naturally constructed buildings. Any suggestions? Gosh, I've never thaught that I might be constructing unnaturally. Scares me just to think of it. I'll be better in the future. Rick Darfler Cleveland Ave Assoc. Contractors, Ithaca, NY ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 10:14:02 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27555 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:14:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12540; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:06:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:00:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA12066 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:00:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from nov.diac.com (diac.com [209.64.40.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA12062 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [209.36.199.78] (209-36-199-78.diac.com [209.36.199.78]) by nov.diac.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA00634 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:02:29 GMT Message-Id: <199903051502.PAA00634@nov.diac.com> Subject: GBlist: Green Points Program Date: Fri, 5 Mar 99 08:02:51 -0700 x-sender: buzz@mail.diac.com x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Buzz Burrell To: "GreenBuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I've been working on a small rural subdivision, and recently completed the first draft of the Covenants. We are establishing a good land use plan, and very good incentives for Greenbuilding. For the later, instead of the highly subjective guidelines that are present in most covenants, I wanted to create an objective set of parameters that would allow owners to build whatever house they want, while somehow guaranteeing a certain level of "green". Thus, the "Green Points Program". Inspired by the City of Boulder program of the same name, points are awarded for a wide variety of features possible in home construction. In order to build on a lot, one must achieve a certain minimum number of points for approval. The beauty of this system is that it gives a great deal of flexibility and options to the design, while at the same time clearly identifying the impacts of various building features, and then objectifying a minimum standard to be met. Needless to say, it would be a great subject of discourse and debate to decide how many points to award the multitude of features possible in residential construction. My methodology was to not worry about it and instead just take my best guess. SO ... if anyone would like to review the first draft, I will send it to you via attached e-mail file, and welcome your comments and feedback. It's in Word 6.0 and Excel 5.0 for MACINTOSH (I don't think WinTel users can read it). Please reply off-list only. Thanks! Buzz Burrell Boulder, CO buzz@diac.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 11:51:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA00005 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:51:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19040; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:43:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:39:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA18420 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:38:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from labs.tamu.edu (labs.tamu.edu [128.194.103.89]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA18403 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:38:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (modem-1386.rns.tamu.edu) by labs.tamu.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1b) with SMTP id <0.00066287@labs.tamu.edu>; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:41:43 -0600 Message-ID: <36E00903.6D27@labs.tamu.edu> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 10:41:42 -0600 From: marvit Reply-To: rsm444d@labs.tamu.edu Organization: Texas A&M University X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: trees/Construction References: <1.5.4.32.19990305040533.0075ebe8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I rememeber seeing a study done years ago, & what this particular study found was that you could place 3/4 in or thicker plywood down where heavy trucks will be moving/sitting & have little damage. it's very shocking to discover that the tree roots are not like we think of them: 20ft Deep & out to the leaves. instead the bulk of the food gathering roots are: 3 x's the distance from the truck to the drip edge, out. sometime more. One landscape archit. uses 6 to 8 inches of shredded tree trimmings, the kind that the trucks from the county have. In addition to that, they place visible Price tags! on the plant material that is to be saved.!! i like the shredded bark myself. jfrost > > Protecting the root system during construction can prevent problems later. > If you will be building a new home soon, consider consulting an arborist > that specializes in preventing construction damage. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 12:07:08 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00409 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:07:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA20354; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:59:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:54:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA19691 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:54:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19680 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:54:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-37.netmeg.net [208.139.83.100]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA04082 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:56:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36E00CC4.133E0F23@swinter.com> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 11:56:36 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: greenclips Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hello! Can someone forward the latest Greenclips to my email below? Thanks, Debra Lombard deblombard@swinter.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 12:07:57 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00442 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:07:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20499; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:00:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:55:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA19827 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:55:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrexch1.americas.bovis.com ([207.238.48.113]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA19819 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:55:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by CHREXCH1 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:52:23 -0500 Message-ID: <415D48F866E7D0119A1700805FF92DFF44A4C6@WASNT1> From: "George, Drew" To: "'GreenBuilding List'" Subject: GBlist: Registry of Green Buildings? Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:44:07 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone know how to find out how many Green Buildings have been built, say in the last 10 years? I would like to be able to quantify, on a yearly basis, what I think is a upward trend of green buildings. I am primarily interested in information that relates to projects larger than single family houses. Specifically, I want to determine how many projects (and their dollar value) my firm would have considered valid prospects had we known about the opportunities early enough. Any resources that the list could point me to are appreciated. Thank you, Drew --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Drew George, Green Building Champion Bovis Construction Corp 7475 Wisconsin Avenue, 10th Floor Bethesda MD 20814 USA Voice 703/206-3404, Fax 703/319-1469 http://www.bovis.com Drew.George@Bovis.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 12:59:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA01432 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:59:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA23924; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:51:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:46:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23429 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:46:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet.carleton.ca (freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23421 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:46:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5 [134.117.136.25]) by freenet.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v3.00) with ESMTP id MAA20406; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:47:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id MAA13746; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:47:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:47:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903051747.MAA13746@freenet5.carleton.ca> From: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Information on (earthen) floors Cc: jnpalme@ibm.net, dmfoley@acadia.net Reply-To: rob_tom@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk on Thu, 4 Mar 1999 Racheli Gai wrote: >> Following up on Speireag's suggestion about earthern floors, >>you may wish to study the work of David Easton, Also, Athena and Bill Steen have self-published a 28 page "how to" booklet entitled "Earthen Floors". absteen@gateway.dakotacom.net (They're in Obregon Mexico for the next few(?) of weeks building homes financed by a loan fund created by donations from members of the CREST StrawBale e-mail List so you may not receive an immediate reply). ---------- * ---------- Rob_Tom @ ncf.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 13:04:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01607 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 13:04:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24423; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:56:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:52:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24063 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:52:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.gorge.net (mail.gorge.net [205.162.195.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24057 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:52:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from gorge.net ([208.14.145.52]) by mail.gorge.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-54909U8000L800S0V35) with ESMTP id AAA224 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:41:51 -0800 Message-ID: <36E01A23.29BBBAD0@gorge.net> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 09:53:49 -0800 From: Daniel Dancer Organization: ZeroCircles Project X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding Subject: GBlist: recyled rebar Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Anyone know where one can get recycled rebar, or new rebar made from recycled material in the Portland, OR region? Thanks, DDancer ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 14:50:03 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA04139 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:50:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01763; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:42:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:36:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01257 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:36:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01251 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:36:29 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ806504; Fri, 5 Mar 99 12:38:21 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA33290; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:38:10 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:38:10 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Buzz Burrell Cc: GreenBuilding List Subject: GBlist: Eco-Village Guidelines In-Reply-To: <199903051502.PAA00634@nov.diac.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Buzz: We are in the early stages of developing our "Guidelines" for our first Eco-Village. I would be interested in similar programs before design and planning. I would also try to find time to review your covenants. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Buzz Burrell wrote: > > I've been working on a small rural subdivision, and recently completed > the first draft of the Covenants. We are establishing a good land use > plan, and very good incentives for Greenbuilding. > > For the later, instead of the highly subjective guidelines that are > present in most covenants, I wanted to create an objective set of > parameters that would allow owners to build whatever house they want, > while somehow guaranteeing a certain level of "green". > > Thus, the "Green Points Program". Inspired by the City of Boulder > program of the same name, points are awarded for a wide variety of > features possible in home construction. In order to build on a lot, one > must achieve a certain minimum number of points for approval. The beauty > of this system is that it gives a great deal of flexibility and options > to the design, while at the same time clearly identifying the impacts of > various building features, and then objectifying a minimum standard to be > met. > > Needless to say, it would be a great subject of discourse and debate to > decide how many points to award the multitude of features possible in > residential construction. My methodology was to not worry about it and > instead just take my best guess. > > SO ... if anyone would like to review the first draft, I will send it to > you via attached e-mail file, and welcome your comments and feedback. > It's in Word 6.0 and Excel 5.0 for MACINTOSH (I don't think WinTel users > can read it). Please reply off-list only. > > Thanks! > > Buzz Burrell > Boulder, CO > buzz@diac.com > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 15:34:17 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05221 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:34:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05025; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:26:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:21:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04159 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:21:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04142 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from myrtle.rtpnc.epa.gov by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26439) with ESMTP id <0F840090MZHARK@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:33:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26438) with SMTP id <0F84000KRZ8RH7@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 05 Mar 1999 14:24:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 05 Mar 1999 14:24:16 -0500 Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 14:24:59 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: Recognize your efficient commercial building! To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: ROSE.ROBERTJ@epamail.epa.gov Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Listers, EPA's ENERGY STAR Buildings program has introduced the ENERGY STAR Building label. Using a bench marking tool on our web site, your office building can be compared to others. Those that perform in the top 25% for efficiency may designate themselves as ENERGY STAR Buildings and use that in marketing and PR. To learn how to qualify a building, go to: [www.epa.gov/buildinglabel]. Currently available for office buildings. Other building types to follow soon. Good luck, Steve O. ============= Contact Information: Steve Offutt - ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html ============= ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 15:34:21 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05227 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:34:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05045; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:26:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:21:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04161 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:21:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov (merlin.rtpnc.epa.gov [134.67.208.148]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04144 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:20:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from myrtle.rtpnc.epa.gov by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26439) with ESMTP id <0F840090MZHARK@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV by epamail.epa.gov (PMDF V5.1-12 #26438) with SMTP id <0F8400MSRYZ0SN@epamail.epa.gov> for greenbuilding@crest.org; Fri, 05 Mar 1999 14:18:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from DCWIC01-Message_Server by DCSMTP.WICTOK7.EPA.GOV with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 05 Mar 1999 14:18:20 -0500 Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 14:19:06 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: reverse metering and assumptions we make To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Content-type: text/plain Content-disposition: inline Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Chris [cneurath@tds.net] said: ". . .But even if you could get net metering for a photovoltaic system, it would never pay for itself in a grid-intertie situation at today's prices for PVs and utility power. You would simply be making a political and/or moral statement." ___________________________________ These kinds of statements regarding cost-effectiveness of a particular system or some other efficiency measure or whatever abound on this list and elsewhere. Chris's caveat ("today's prices. . .") is huge. Today's prices are ephemeral, so how can we possibly feel comfortable making analyses using them. We all know that the utility world by the time this solar system reaches the middle of its life will be unrecognizable: restructuring/deregulation, greenhouse gas taxes and/or international agreements, etc. . . . Given that, I tend to like to hedge my bets in the direction of certain non-economic factors that will always hold true, like improving the environment and the circumstances surrounding ourselves and others. That's a better assumption than basing analysis on the quirks of prices, legislation, taxes, inflation, weather, blah, blah blah. (Wouldn't it be great if in a few years when the infrastructure is in place there's another incredible price spike like last summer, and a few people with solar systems can sell into the grid at $80/kWh? Then who gets the last laugh?) I know, I know. We have to base our analyses on something and make some assumptions as best we can; and what else is there but today's prices and trends? Chris, I'm not picking on you in particular. I'm just trying to foster some discussion about how we think about the assumptions that we make in general when we look out into the future. Have a terrific weekend, all. Steve O. P.S. "simply?" I might say instead, ". . .If you could get net metering for a photovoltaic system, you could make a political and/or moral statement; and it would simply not happen to pay for itself." (barring any changes of any kind in anything, of course) ============= Contact Information: Steve Offutt - ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html ============= ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 15:35:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05245 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:35:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05262; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:27:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:23:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04372 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:22:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (pike.sover.net [209.198.87.34]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04357 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:22:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.136.199.243] (arc0a49.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.177]) by pike.sover.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26839; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:24:41 -0500 (EST) Comments: SoVerNet Verification (on pike.sover.net) [207.136.199.243] from arc0a49.bratt.sover.net [207.136.199.177] 207.136.199.177 Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:24:41 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: nmalin@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36E01A23.29BBBAD0@gorge.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:26:05 -0500 To: Daniel Dancer , greenbuilding From: Nadav Malin Subject: Re: GBlist: recyled rebar Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk HI Daniel, I don't know about used rebar. Seems unlikely that it would be reusable after being wrangled out of the concrete. But all new rebar is made from nearly 100% recycled steel and iron. You can find more details on the situation with recycled content in steel products in our 1994 article on steel and wood framing. It's in the "Feature Articles" section of our Web site: http://www.ebuild.com Nadav At 9:53 AM -0800 3/5/99, Daniel Dancer wrote: >Anyone know where one can get recycled rebar, or new rebar made from >recycled material in the Portland, OR region? > >Thanks, >DDancer > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 15:48:54 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05611 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:48:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06144; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:40:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:36:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA05793 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:36:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.desupernet.net (qmailr@mail2.desupernet.net [204.249.184.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05779 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 26357 invoked from network); 5 Mar 1999 20:32:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO oemcomputer) (208.3.220.163) by mail2.desupernet.net with SMTP; 5 Mar 1999 20:32:54 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990305154004.007a7c40@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 15:40:04 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: Green Schools In-Reply-To: <199903050700.CAA25036@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I am trying to convience my local school district to build green. They will be constructing a new high school in the near future. I have a meeting set with the superintendent and key school board members late next week. I am looking for information/case studies on green school building projects (K-12). I have information on Durant Middle School in NC. Can you point me in the direction of any others? Thanks. ============================================================= Marcus B. Sheffer energy & green building consulting Energy Opportunites Phone: 717-292-2636 1200 E Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ============================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 15:59:40 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA05862 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:59:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06866; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:51:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:47:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06500 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:47:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06495 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:47:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from centipede.rs.itd.umich.edu (smtp@centipede.rs.itd.umich.edu [141.211.63.91]) by berzerk.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/4.3-mailhub) with ESMTP id PAA16392; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:49:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (sucila@localhost) by centipede.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.8.8/5.1-client) with ESMTP id PAA04747; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:49:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:49:32 -0500 (EST) From: Sucila Fernandes X-Sender: sucila@centipede.rs.itd.umich.edu To: Alan Page cc: Renewable News Network , "Viderman, Stephen" , "building, green" , "tns-consultant@igc.org" , "foresters, z" , sjamesassoc@compuserve.com Subject: GBlist: Since we're on the topic of Janitors In-Reply-To: <36DEE08F.DBD088EE@prodigy.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hello, To those of you have been involved in this email discussion on Janitors. I would like to begin a discussion on what kinds of things we could talk about with them rather than should we or should we not include them. I for one am a firm believer in including all aspects of a system. Here at the School of Natural Resources and Environment at the University of Michigan, I will soon be conducting a little workshop with the custodians here to discuss with them the Recycling Program here. I hope to gain a perspective not seen before. (i.e. the convience of the recycling system for them). I hope to share with them the importance of the Recycling Program, and more importantly with out them it really could not be possible. I agree this is a difficult issue to address, especially with the Union issue but aside from that, could someone provide me with some input you might have. Any suggestions or questions I should ask? Issues that should be brought up? I would really appreciate it. For those interested I would gladly share my results. Thanks Sucila Sucila Fernandes Dana Building 430 E. University (Rm:2004) Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1115 (734) 764-1412 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 16:21:35 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA06369 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:21:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA08466; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:13:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:09:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07901 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:09:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from nessie.vdh.state.vt.us (nessie.vdh.state.vt.us [159.105.135.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07894 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:09:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by nessie.vdh.state.vt.us with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:10:58 -0500 Message-ID: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C6D68FC@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> From: "Rogers, Mike" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: RE: GBlist: Green Schools Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:10:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Marcus, A couple of suggestions: Try Ken Meyer, Manager of Environmental Health and Safety for the Minneapolis Public Schools. Ask about the Whittier school. Ken has good info on the incremental costs (low) and by now should have some good performance data as well. Sorry, I don't have his number handy, but you can reach him through MPS. Also try the Jane Lacasse, Principal of the Boscawen School in Boscawen, NH. She can be reached at 603/753-6512. The school was desinged by the H.L. Turner group. They can be reached at (603) 228-1122. Hope this helps. Good Luck. Mike Rogers > -----Original Message----- > From: Marcus Sheffer [mailto:msheffer@cyberia.com] > Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 3:40 PM > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: Green Schools > > > I am trying to convience my local school district to build > green. They > will be constructing a new high school in the near future. I have a > meeting set with the superintendent and key school board > members late next > week. I am looking for information/case studies on green > school building > projects (K-12). I have information on Durant Middle School > in NC. Can > you point me in the direction of any others? Thanks. > ============================================================= > Marcus B. Sheffer energy & green building consulting > Energy Opportunites Phone: 717-292-2636 > 1200 E Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 > Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com > ============================================================== > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 16:21:46 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA06374 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:21:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA08504; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:14:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:09:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA07888 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:09:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA07880 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:09:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (STD1.2/BZS-8-1.0) id QAA14346; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA07382; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:11:23 -0500 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:11:23 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: STEPHEN OFFUTT Cc: "Ross M. Donald 1-781-453-9668" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: reverse metering and assumptions we make In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear Steve, Thanks for the positive statements. We need to verbalize the pro-solar arguments and take affirmative positions to prepare to do things with solar. There are plenty of people, who are not doing anything, themselves; and they're full of advice, for others, on how to NOT do things. The EPA needs to be much more aggressive on the benefits of daylighting, in it's lighting retrofit and new buildings programs. I know that this is an arguable assumption, on my part; but its not always obvious that the EPA bureaucracy is advocating a strong pro-solar strategy. The economics of solar energy are difficult, but not impossible. As for the market, there is a significant willingness on the part of buyers to support the industry, as it grows. As for the environmental concerns of the typical renewable energy customer, once a solar energy system is installed, there may be a time period until the costs break even, but there is no wait for the environmental benefits. Pollution is displaced immediately. Yours truly, Ross On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, STEPHEN OFFUTT wrote: > Chris [cneurath@tds.net] said: > > ". . .But even if you could get net metering for a photovoltaic system, it would never pay > for itself in a grid-intertie situation at today's prices for PVs and utility power. You would > simply be making a political and/or moral statement." > ___________________________________ > > These kinds of statements regarding cost-effectiveness of a particular system or some > other efficiency measure or whatever abound on this list and elsewhere. Chris's caveat > ("today's prices. . .") is huge. Today's prices are ephemeral, so how can we possibly > feel comfortable making analyses using them. We all know that the utility world by the > time this solar system reaches the middle of its life will be unrecognizable: > restructuring/deregulation, greenhouse gas taxes and/or international agreements, etc. > . . . Given that, I tend to like to hedge my bets in the direction of certain non-economic > factors that will always hold true, like improving the environment and the circumstances > surrounding ourselves and others. That's a better assumption than basing analysis on > the quirks of prices, legislation, taxes, inflation, weather, blah, blah blah. > > (Wouldn't it be great if in a few years when the infrastructure is in place there's > another incredible price spike like last summer, and a few people with solar systems > can sell into the grid at $80/kWh? Then who gets the last laugh?) > > I know, I know. We have to base our analyses on something and make some > assumptions as best we can; and what else is there but today's prices and trends? > > Chris, I'm not picking on you in particular. I'm just trying to foster some discussion > about how we think about the assumptions that we make in general when we look out > into the future. > > Have a terrific weekend, all. > > Steve O. > > P.S. "simply?" > I might say instead, ". . .If you could get net metering for a photovoltaic system, you > could make a political and/or moral statement; and it would simply not happen to pay for > itself." (barring any changes of any kind in anything, of course) > ============= > Contact Information: > Steve Offutt - ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA > 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) > offutt.stephen@epa.gov > ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES > www.epa.gov/energystar.html > ============= > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > for Solar Utilities info, send, "subscribe solar_utilities" to ; ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 16:58:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA07281 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:58:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA10835; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:51:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:46:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA10394 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:46:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from chrome.dreamscape.com (chrome.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA10381 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:46:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from europa.dreamscape.com (europa.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.147]) by chrome.dreamscape.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA01149 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:48:51 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-A: europa.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.147] X-Dreamscape-Track-Chrome-B: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:48:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from dreamscape.com (sA15-p41.dreamscape.com [209.217.195.104]) by europa.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA23594 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:48:50 -0500 (EST) X-Dreamscape-Track-A: sA15-p41.dreamscape.com [209.217.195.104] X-Dreamscape-Track-B: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:48:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36E0507C.B3CE3224@dreamscape.com> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 16:45:32 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Subject: Re: GBlist: Since we're on the topic of Janitors References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Sucila Fernandes wrote: > I hope to gain a perspective not seen before. (i.e. the convience of the > recycling system for them). I hope to share with them the importance of > the Recycling Program, and more importantly with out them it really could > not be possible. Sucila, I think that the most important element you might bring to this meeting would be a *genuine* desire to learn from the staff. Clearly what you can learn from them about the nuts and bolts realities of recycling in your institution, are much more fundamentally meaningful in getting recycling to work than any statistical analysis you might offer them. If in the process of drawing out their valuable input you find it helpful to share your personal commitment to recycling and a general example or two, all the better. The least productive scenario I can imagine here would be a group from the housekeeping staff, sitting with gazed eyes and sore backsides, listening to yet another pedants lecture on the state of the ozone layer and the importance of carbon sequestration. Don't misunderstand me, I haven't any idea what kind of relationship you have with these people going into this or how you normally interact with them, if at all. What I do know having a number of friends who work for buildings and grounds at Colgate Univ.; carpenters, electricians and janitors and an equal number of friends who are in the faculty and administration, and they generally don't like each other, often to the point of seething animosity. The single most important thing you can accomplish initially would be to create a workable alliance with the staff by making their needs and problems at least as important as the head of the Physics Dept. If you can do that, then they will be much more interested in what you know about the state of the environment. Once again, I'm flying blind here (some would say that's normal for me) I don't know you or how you work, these are just my thoughts for anyone entering into this kind of relationship. I agree this is a difficult issue to address, especially > with the Union issue but aside from that, could someone provide me with > some input you might have. What does the Union have to do with your asking the staff for their input? I would like to hear your thoughts after the meeting. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 17:42:58 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA08158 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:42:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14084; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:35:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:31:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA13726 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:30:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA13706 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:30:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-37.netmeg.net [208.139.83.100]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA21874; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:29:32 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36E05AE0.49630C45@swinter.com> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 17:29:52 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Rogers, Mike" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Schools References: <663046DA9D4CD211889A0000F805563C6D68FC@nessie.vdh.state.vt.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk see http://sparky.gsc.state.tx.us/energy/oprtunty.html#day for school info. also there was an article entitled "solar in schools" which you may find thru a search engine debra lombard Rogers, Mike wrote: > Marcus, > > A couple of suggestions: > > Try Ken Meyer, Manager of Environmental Health and Safety for the > Minneapolis Public Schools. Ask about the Whittier school. Ken has good > info on the incremental costs (low) and by now should have some good > performance data as well. Sorry, I don't have his number handy, but you can > reach him through MPS. > > Also try the Jane Lacasse, Principal of the Boscawen School in Boscawen, NH. > She can be reached at 603/753-6512. The school was desinged by the H.L. > Turner group. They can be reached at (603) 228-1122. > > Hope this helps. Good Luck. > > Mike Rogers > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Marcus Sheffer [mailto:msheffer@cyberia.com] > > Sent: Friday, March 05, 1999 3:40 PM > > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > > Subject: GBlist: Green Schools > > > > > > I am trying to convience my local school district to build > > green. They > > will be constructing a new high school in the near future. I have a > > meeting set with the superintendent and key school board > > members late next > > week. I am looking for information/case studies on green > > school building > > projects (K-12). I have information on Durant Middle School > > in NC. Can > > you point me in the direction of any others? Thanks. > > ============================================================= > > Marcus B. Sheffer energy & green building consulting > > Energy Opportunites Phone: 717-292-2636 > > 1200 E Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 > > Wellsville, PA USA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com > > ============================================================== > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 17:55:31 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA08322 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:55:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14920; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:47:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:43:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14605 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:43:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from send1e.yahoomail.com (send1e.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14588 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:43:35 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990305224435.9154.rocketmail@send1e.yahoomail.com> Received: from [208.129.242.82] by send1e; Fri, 05 Mar 1999 14:44:35 PST Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:44:35 -0800 (PST) From: Sam Ritter Reply-To: sor@flash.net Subject: GBlist: Sealing rammed earth walls To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I am building a rammed earth house in Austin, Texas, and wish to keep the rammed earth walls exposed as much as possible throughout the house. In some places, i.e. the showers, I need to either seal the walls with some liquid sealant OR cover them with another material, something I really don't want to do. Has anyone had any experience with decent sealants that could do the job without adding toxicity? The rammed earth really soaks up many products, like Thomson's water seal, so quickly that it doesn't really do the job. -Sam Ritter _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 18:35:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA09049 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 18:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA17675; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 18:27:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 18:22:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA17067 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 18:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA17052; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 18:22:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp012.cd.centuryinter.net (ppp012.cd.centuryinter.net [209.142.147.84]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA13641; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:20:30 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36E0980D.2BDC@centuryinter.net> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 18:50:53 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Reply-To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: coblist@deatech.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: sealing earth Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I used Enviro Loc for adobe to seal the exterior of my earthen plastered straw bale house in Northern Michigan. I applied it this fall and it has performed well so far. Let me know if you want details. Keith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 5 22:41:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA12102 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:41:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA29334; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:34:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:29:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA28866 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:29:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA28859 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:29:30 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ411295; Fri, 5 Mar 99 20:31:32 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA54380; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:30:57 -0700 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:30:57 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: Eco-Village Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk How many people would constitute a village or community? Jorg ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 6 01:10:37 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA13931 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 01:10:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA03737; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 01:02:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Mar 1999 00:58:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA03447 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 00:58:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA03442 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 00:58:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (STD1.2/BZS-8-1.0) id BAA08369; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 01:00:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA15473; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 01:00:24 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 01:00:24 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco-Village In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk starts with one On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > How many people would constitute a village or community? Jorg ostrowski > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 6 02:41:30 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA14550 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 02:41:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA06945; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 02:33:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Mar 1999 02:29:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA06665 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 02:29:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA06661 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 02:29:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id BAA12116 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 01:31:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from vna-va6-38.ix.netcom.com(207.223.176.102) by dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma012107; Sat Mar 6 01:30:57 1999 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990306023922.008d1e70@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 02:39:22 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: Green Building "Inventory" issue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Green Building "Inventory" issue ------------------------------------------- The _Green Building Advisor_, 1998 published by EBN and CREST has a bunch of good case studies. ...................................... Knowing How Many? -- We need the basic consensus first before the counting really matters. Counting green buildings is like counting trees. A patch of forest may have 10,000 trees but the loggers may only value one species, a pharmaceutical manufacturer likes another, hikers enjoy the scent of pines, Owls nest in yet another, and so forth -- only Nature appreciates the whole. I would first be concerned about how to rank the _qualities_ of the buildings against some benchmark, much like commercial building energy efficiency is frequently compared against ASHRAE Std. 90.1-1989R, or HERS numerical scores are bench marked to the "Model Energy Code." Unfortunately there have been no consensus standards published for green buildings -- either commercial or residential -- as yet by any major consensus organizations (someone _please_ tell me I am mistaken!) There are only some competitive points systems. Some of these are pretty good like LEED, and the GBC-98 system (which I was told recently, however, is not available for use by mere mortals just yet...) used for the recent rating of international "Green Building Challenge" projects. There-in lies the rub -- without a consensus baseline or complete definition of what constitutes the green building, how can we develop any meaningful data for the community on how many there are? And what would it matter to know how many, if there is no basis for comparison? How would we "cost" or value them if there is no clear agreement on a set of minimal expected features, and where they come from? Sure there are a lot of nifty manuals, books, and other green building stuff floating around from maybe 150+ different sources. The home builders have their build-green system, the concrete people have theirs, the wood folks have theirs, while the insulators -- mainly Cellulose -v- Fiberglass (Spy versus Spy?)-- do battle over BTU's, production energy, transportation and recycling... But the tough job remains to be completed: establishing a consensus for the benefit of consumers, lenders, real estate investors, marketers, governmental agencies, etc. Who's job is it to establish such a consensus? Who stands to gain or to lose? This is the same sort of bind that I was in fifteen years ago trying to document "how many passive solar homes" there were for a major trade group. Well, was I to include all that happened to have any extra insulation and some added equatorial facing glass? Or did only the full blown high-mass large glazing "thermal engines" prove relevant in the sample? The insulation people said -- oh any home that is well insulated and has some extra glass is "passive solar - suntempered" and other approaches were "impractical and cost too much." The thermal mass people snorted, saying "what a wimpy approach -- the light weight product interests just don't get it...their homes aren't really passive solar..." The real answer was totally missed for many years until EEBA - the Energy Efficient Building Association - got it right by helping us to realize the correct answer was employing "the building as a system" which balanced all the elements. Green Building is at just such a crossroads. There are many camps emerging: the IAQ healthy building camp; the super energy-efficiency camp; the HVAC solves the problems camp; the recycled building materials camp, the Strawbale or nothing camp; and so forth. Let's get back to basics on green building and keep in mind understanding the systems and the processes thoroughly comes first. Then later we can count up the beans. These comments are not to say that knowing how many green buildings there are is useless, but rather to say let's get together on what it really takes (at least) to create (or remodel) a _REAL_ green building, through an ongoing consensus process. Then the numbers can take on some real meaning. >>>> -------- how many Green Buildings have been built, say in the last 10 years? I would like to be able to quantify, on a yearly basis, what I think is a upward trend of green buildings. I am primarily interested in information that relates to projects larger than single family houses. - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Drew George, Green Building Champion Bovis Construction Corp Drew.George@Bovis.com <<<<<<<< || =(O) = Environmental Building Consulting Services || Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA < < === note revised e-mail address above === ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 6 09:02:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16336 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 09:02:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA14407; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 08:54:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Mar 1999 08:49:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA14117 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 08:49:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from europe.std.com (europe.std.com [199.172.62.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA14112 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 08:49:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from world.std.com by europe.std.com (STD1.2/BZS-8-1.0) id IAA26411; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 08:51:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by world.std.com (TheWorld/Spike-2.0) id AA03642; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 08:51:56 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 08:51:55 -0500 (EST) From: Renewable News Network X-Sender: rnn@world.std.com To: "Bion D. Howard" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Building "Inventory" strategy In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990306023922.008d1e70@popd.ix.netcom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dear Bion, ...so, how many green buildings have been built? I agree with everything you say, except for the conclusion that we cannot begin counting. Definitions, historically, used to be prescriptive, when there were acknowledged authorities, such as academies, or state religions, that determined the meaning of words. Today, definitions are descriptive of what's actually happening. If we are going to look at green buildings, which is only one purpose of developing an inventory - other objectives include comparing and contrasting - we are going to have to start counting, regardless of what exactly we are talking about. Common sense informs us that we have a general idea that we are more or less on the same page. Here's the difference, in approach, as I see things: the way to inaction and stagnation, which is the standard approach, is "ready, aim, fire," or research, plan, implement, with an emphasis on not doing anything, until the plan is perfected. This is impossible. What we, in fact, do, and need to do, consciously, is realize a strategy of "ready, fire, aim," and deal with the world and the construction trades, as an ongoing process. We've done the research (which will continue,) we are building buildings and planning more all the time. What we need to do is to correct our aim and focus in on green issues. The solar house comparison is apt. All buildings use solar, but not all are solar buildings, depending on the definition. That did not stop anyone from counting. In 1974, before the first OPEC oil embargo, there were about 50 intended "solar buildings" in the world. Two years later there were over 5,000 and counting. Yours truly, Ross On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, Bion D. Howard wrote: > Green Building "Inventory" issue > > ------------------------------------------- > > The _Green Building Advisor_, 1998 published by EBN and CREST has a bunch > of good case studies. > > > ...................................... > > Knowing How Many? -- We need the basic consensus first before the > counting really matters. > > > Counting green buildings is like counting trees. A patch of forest may > have 10,000 trees but the loggers may only value one species, a > pharmaceutical manufacturer likes another, hikers enjoy the scent of > pines, Owls nest in yet another, and so forth -- only Nature appreciates > the whole. > > > I would first be concerned about how to rank the _qualities_ of the > buildings against some benchmark, much like commercial building energy > efficiency is frequently compared against ASHRAE Std. 90.1-1989R, or HERS > numerical scores are bench marked to the "Model Energy Code." > > > Unfortunately there have been no consensus standards published for green > buildings -- either commercial or residential -- as yet by any major > consensus organizations (someone _please_ tell me I am mistaken!) There > are only some competitive points systems. Some of these are pretty good > like LEED, and the GBC-98 system (which I was told recently, however, is > not available for use by mere mortals just yet...) used for the recent > rating of international "Green Building Challenge" projects. > > > There-in lies the rub -- without a consensus baseline or complete > definition of what constitutes the green building, how can we develop any > meaningful data for the community on how many there are? And what would > it matter to know how many, if there is no basis for comparison? How > would we "cost" or value them if there is no clear agreement on a set of > minimal expected features, and where they come from? > > > Sure there are a lot of nifty manuals, books, and other green building > stuff floating around from maybe 150+ different sources. The home > builders have their build-green system, the concrete people have theirs, > the wood folks have theirs, while the insulators -- mainly Cellulose -v- > Fiberglass (Spy versus Spy?)-- do battle over BTU's, production energy, > transportation and recycling... But the tough job remains to be > completed: establishing a consensus for the benefit of consumers, > lenders, real estate investors, marketers, governmental agencies, etc. > Who's job is it to establish such a consensus? Who stands to gain or to > lose? > > > This is the same sort of bind that I was in fifteen years ago trying to > document "how many passive solar homes" there were for a major trade > group. Well, was I to include all that happened to have any extra > insulation and some added equatorial facing glass? Or did only the full > blown high-mass large glazing "thermal engines" prove relevant in the > sample? The insulation people said -- oh any home that is well insulated > and has some extra glass is "passive solar - suntempered" and other > approaches were "impractical and cost too much." The thermal mass > people snorted, saying "what a wimpy approach -- the light weight product > interests just don't get it...their homes aren't really passive solar..." > > > > The real answer was totally missed for many years until EEBA - the Energy > Efficient Building Association - got it right by helping us to realize > the correct answer was employing "the building as a system" which > balanced all the elements. > > > Green Building is at just such a crossroads. There are many camps > emerging: the IAQ healthy building camp; the super energy-efficiency > camp; the HVAC solves the problems camp; the recycled building materials > camp, the Strawbale or nothing camp; and so forth. Let's get back to > basics on green building and keep in mind understanding the systems and > the processes thoroughly comes first. Then later we can count up the > beans. > > > These comments are not to say that knowing how many green buildings there > are is useless, but rather to say let's get together on what it really > takes (at least) to create (or remodel) a _REAL_ green building, through > an ongoing consensus process. Then the numbers can take on some real > meaning. > > > > >>>> > > -------- > > how many Green Buildings have been built, say in the last 10 years? I > would like to be able to quantify, on a yearly basis, what I think is a > upward trend of green buildings. > > > I am primarily interested in information that relates to projects larger > than single family houses. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Drew George, Green Building Champion > Bovis Construction Corp > Drew.George@Bovis.com > <<<<<<<< > > || > =(O) = Environmental Building Consulting Services > || Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal > Building Environmental Science & Technology > P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA > < < > === note revised e-mail address above === > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > Send press releases, announcements, and notices of interest to: Renewable News Network 44 Norfolk Street Needham, MA 02492 USA Contact: Ross M. Donald 781-453-9668 To receive the next edition of the Environmental Review, send, subscribe er-list, to ; for Solar Utilities info, send, subscribe solar_utilities ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 6 15:49:10 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA21044 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 15:49:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA26548; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 15:40:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Mar 1999 15:35:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA26269 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 15:35:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA26254 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 15:35:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.114] (newhenyusr0-a114.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.114]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA14340; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 14:37:28 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 14:53:21 -0500 To: Greenbuilding discussion list From: CN Subject: GBlist: reverse metering and assumptions we make Cc: STEPHEN OFFUTT Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Stephen, Of course I agree with your points but let me put my comments on "costs" of photovoltaics (PV) into perspective. I have lived with PV as the sole source of my electricity for many years. The person who started this thread was complaining that she was only being offered $0.02/kwh for her PV electricity from her utility and being charged something like $0.10/kWh for grid supplied power. So, current prices seemed to be the issue of interest to the initial poster. There has been constant talk of a reduction in PV price per watt in the last 10 years since I bought my first panel, but the actual reduction in price in these last 10 years has been almost negligible. All the big price reductions came in the years before I bought PV. Of course I hope that price breakthroughs will come in the future, but I'm not counting on it in my advice to people planning to buy systems now. The vast majority of people who express interest in my PV powered home have the misconception (or hope) that using PV will somehow lower their electric bills. I get tired of trying to explain to them that in fact, PV's cost about 10 times more per usable kWh in the real world of home scale electricity. I can afford it because my home is roughly 10 times more efficient than the average home. To achieve this 10 fold efficiency improvement has taken much more thought and research than it did to install and use the PV system itself! I think it would be great if more people used PVs for their electricity. But those whose prime motivation is saving money need to be shown that you save money by conserving energy, not by generating energy in a novel fashion. What you can save by using PVs is the Earth, but in our present economic system, that is given very little dollar value. By the way, I'm glad the EPA has it's energy star program. But when I have actually tried to take advantage of it, I have found it to be way behind my needs. I've wanted to know the actual wattage draw of computer equipment, but Energy Star ratings only give products a pass/fail and as I mentioned in other posts, Energy Star has done nothing to require products to provide accurate figures for power consumption under typical use conditions. For instance, a VDT monitor that uses 100 watts and an LCD monitor that uses 25 watts, both get Energy Star certified as long as they have a sleep mode. But the LCD monitor uses 1/4 the energy during my typical work routine (I shut off my computer when I'm not using it). Sometimes I point out to people, that if everyone and every institution in the country took the same type of steps I have taken to reduce my electricity consumption, we could shut down 9 out of 10 existing power plants virtually overnight! The electricity industry results in more pollution, habitat destruction, social disruption, and dollar expense than any other industry in the U.S. according to a study I read recently. What a difference it could make. And we wouldn't need a single PV to do it. Although I admit they are good conversation starters. Enjoying a wonderful March blizzard in northern New York, Chris Neurath ------------------------------ >Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 14:19:06 -0500 From: STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: GBlist: reverse metering and assumptions we make Chris [cneurath@tds.net] said: ". . .But even if you could get net metering for a photovoltaic system, it would never pay for itself in a grid-intertie situation at today's prices for PVs and utility power. You would simply be making a political and/or moral statement." ___________________________________ >These kinds of statements regarding cost-effectiveness of a particular >system or some other efficiency measure or whatever abound on this list and elsewhere. Chris's caveat ("today's prices. . .") is huge. Today's prices are ephemeral, so how can we possibly feel comfortable making analyses using them.... Contact Information: Steve Offutt - ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) offutt.stephen@epa.gov ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES www.epa.gov/energystar.html ============= ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 6 16:30:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA21447 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:30:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA28248; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:22:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:18:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA27905 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:18:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from marine.sonic.net (marine.sonic.net [208.201.224.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA27891 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:18:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 23509 invoked from network); 6 Mar 1999 21:20:43 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO sub.sonic.net) (208.201.224.8) by marine.sonic.net with SMTP; 6 Mar 1999 21:20:43 -0000 Received: from baja (d175.nas17.sonic.net [208.201.231.175]) by sub.sonic.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA09373; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 13:20:40 -0800 X-envelope-info: Message-ID: <000e01be6817$24376820$afe7c9d0@baja> From: "Arlie Haig" To: "Greenbuilding discussion list" , "CN" Cc: "STEPHEN OFFUTT" Subject: Re: GBlist: reverse metering and assumptions we make Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 13:20:19 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone know of a device to measure kWh of a specific appliance (computer, refrigerator, etc.)? If there isn't such, couldn't it be built easily? -----Original Message----- From: CN To: Greenbuilding discussion list Cc: STEPHEN OFFUTT Date: Saturday, March 06, 1999 12:41 PM Subject: GBlist: reverse metering and assumptions we make >Stephen, > >Of course I agree with your points but let me put my comments on "costs" of >photovoltaics (PV) into perspective. I have lived with PV as the sole >source of my electricity for many years. The person who started this >thread was complaining that she was only being offered $0.02/kwh for her PV >electricity from her utility and being charged something like $0.10/kWh for >grid supplied power. So, current prices seemed to be the issue of interest >to the initial poster. > >There has been constant talk of a reduction in PV price per watt in the >last 10 years since I bought my first panel, but the actual reduction in >price in these last 10 years has been almost negligible. All the big price >reductions came in the years before I bought PV. Of course I hope that >price breakthroughs will come in the future, but I'm not counting on it in >my advice to people planning to buy systems now. > >The vast majority of people who express interest in my PV powered home have >the misconception (or hope) that using PV will somehow lower their electric >bills. I get tired of trying to explain to them that in fact, PV's cost >about 10 times more per usable kWh in the real world of home scale >electricity. I can afford it because my home is roughly 10 times more >efficient than the average home. To achieve this 10 fold efficiency >improvement has taken much more thought and research than it did to install >and use the PV system itself! > >I think it would be great if more people used PVs for their electricity. >But those whose prime motivation is saving money need to be shown that you >save money by conserving energy, not by generating energy in a novel >fashion. What you can save by using PVs is the Earth, but in our present >economic system, that is given very little dollar value. > >By the way, I'm glad the EPA has it's energy star program. But when I have >actually tried to take advantage of it, I have found it to be way behind my >needs. I've wanted to know the actual wattage draw of computer equipment, >but Energy Star ratings only give products a pass/fail and as I mentioned >in other posts, Energy Star has done nothing to require products to provide >accurate figures for power consumption under typical use conditions. For >instance, a VDT monitor that uses 100 watts and an LCD monitor that uses 25 >watts, both get Energy Star certified as long as they have a sleep mode. >But the LCD monitor uses 1/4 the energy during my typical work routine (I >shut off my computer when I'm not using it). > >Sometimes I point out to people, that if everyone and every institution in >the country took the same type of steps I have taken to reduce my >electricity consumption, we could shut down 9 out of 10 existing power >plants virtually overnight! The electricity industry results in more >pollution, habitat destruction, social disruption, and dollar expense than >any other industry in the U.S. according to a study I read recently. What >a difference it could make. And we wouldn't need a single PV to do it. >Although I admit they are good conversation starters. > >Enjoying a wonderful March blizzard in northern New York, > >Chris Neurath > >------------------------------ > >>Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 14:19:06 -0500 >From: STEPHEN OFFUTT >Subject: GBlist: reverse metering and assumptions we make > >Chris [cneurath@tds.net] said: > >". . .But even if you could get net metering for a photovoltaic system, it >would never pay >for itself in a grid-intertie situation at today's prices for PVs and >utility power. You would >simply be making a political and/or moral statement." >___________________________________ > >>These kinds of statements regarding cost-effectiveness of a particular >>system or some >other efficiency measure or whatever abound on this list and elsewhere. >Chris's caveat >("today's prices. . .") is huge. Today's prices are ephemeral, so how can >we possibly >feel comfortable making analyses using them.... > > Contact Information: >Steve Offutt - ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA > 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) >offutt.stephen@epa.gov > ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES >www.epa.gov/energystar.html >============= > > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 6 17:38:11 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA22090 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:38:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA00837; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:30:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:26:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA00489 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:26:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel7.mindspring.com (camel7.mindspring.com [207.69.200.57]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA00485 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:25:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from kbell (pool-207-205-131-236.atln.grid.net [207.205.131.236]) by camel7.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA13802; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:28:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <003401be6821$094b6ca0$ec83cdcf@kbell> From: "Karlene" To: "Greenbuilding discussion list" , "CN" Cc: "STEPHEN OFFUTT" Subject: Re: GBlist: reverse metering and assumptions we make Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:31:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk CN: I'm the one who started this thread - and I can assure you that saving $ was only a small part of my concern. Like you, I believe in helping to save the earth, or I wouldn't be on this list. Part of the inquiry was to help me decide on the sizing of my pv system,, and also to help to justisfy or not justify getting a battery bank. Of course I intend to have a much more efficient building, but it looks like some batteries might be worth a little more investigation. (I sure can't do ALL my electric-using in the sunshine) Nevertheless, it still seems an unfair trade-off. Thanks to everyone for giving me lots more to thnk about! Karlene -----Original Message----- The person who started this >thread was complaining that she was only being offered $0.02/kwh for her PV electricity from her utility and being charged something like $0.10/kWh for grid supplied power. So, current prices seemed to be the issue of interest >I think it would be great if more people used PVs for their electricity. >But those whose prime motivation is saving money need to be shown that you >save money by conserving energy, not by generating energy in a novel >fashion. What you can save by using PVs is the Earth, but in our present >economic system, that is given very little dollar value. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 6 20:10:22 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA23362 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:10:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA05437; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:02:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Mar 1999 19:58:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05171 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 19:57:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05165 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 19:57:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from atlasinc.on.ca (209-20-9-71.dialin.interlog.com [209.20.9.71]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA17736 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:00:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36E1D156.4A9DBF3F@atlasinc.on.ca> Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 20:07:34 -0500 From: Neil Spiegel Reply-To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Organization: Atlas Consulting X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding-List Subject: GBlist: Retrofitting the House as a system Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi, Does anyone know of any good resources of information on the benefits/complexities of retrofitting towards tightness? When does parital tightness begin to bring efficiencies? When does air quality become an issue? How is it best measured? For example: If we gut the third floor of a home and air/vapour barrier it entirely, and insulate, etc, how do we best evaluate the air quality issues? Can we put in a bathroom vent and leave it at that until we do the rest of the building when we might want to consider an HRV? Is there much value in creating an air/vapour barrier over a small renovated area of a home (say the 2nd floor bathroom) by itself? i.e. is some better than none? What's the curve like? Is it diminishing returns when you seal a home or is there a threshold you need to get to before you notice any benefits? I think the 'factor' which underlies the above questions is really: How does air move through a building? For me this is the most difficult aspect of the 'home as a system' concept to visualize or become comfortable with. So let me ask for a more baseline resource too. Does anyone know of any resources which discuss indoor air flow in detail to give a solid understanding of the invisible motion of air/heat/vapour and their retardents. Thanks, Neil P.S. I can't help but thinking that the retrofitting area is really important in North American due to demographic changes. Besides, it's better to update something then throw it away and buy a new one. -- Neil Spiegel V: 416-534-9792 F: 416-534-7888 E: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca "Why worry about other people's authenticity when you could be worrying about your own?" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 6 20:30:21 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA24556 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:30:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA06211; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:22:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:18:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA05908 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:18:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from beta.nova.org (beta.nova.org [209.31.144.41]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA05904 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:18:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from infiltec.com (ra2-02.dial.nova.org [209.31.144.194]) by beta.nova.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA02053; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:20:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36E1D4C3.CF379494@infiltec.com> Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 20:22:12 -0500 From: David Saum Organization: Infiltec X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca Subject: Re: GBlist: Retrofitting the House as a system References: <36E1D156.4A9DBF3F@atlasinc.on.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Neil Spiegel wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone know of any good resources of information on the benefits/complexities of > retrofitting towards tightness? Take a look at my web page http://www.infiltec.com/inf-bd.htm where I link to lots of articles (primarily from Home Energy magazine) about house airtighteness. I find it most helpful to think of a house as a hot air balloon. Whenever it is colder outside than inside, the house is actually trying to lift off its foundation. Notice that hot air balloons have big holes in the bottom but the only holes in the top are for control. So your project to seal the top floor of your house is a good idea, even if nothing is done to the bottom. Hope this helps, Dave Saum Infiltec Air Leakage Control http://www.infiltec.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 6 21:22:41 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA25113 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 21:22:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA08036; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 21:14:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 6 Mar 1999 21:10:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA07582 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 21:10:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop.centuryinter.net (pop.centuryinter.net [209.142.136.253]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA07570; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 21:10:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ppp027.cd.centuryinter.net (ppp027.cd.centuryinter.net [209.142.147.99]) by pop.centuryinter.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA27335; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:10:46 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <36E21195.2C0A@centuryinter.net> Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 21:41:41 -0800 From: Keith Breuker Reply-To: flyfisherkb@centuryinter.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: coblist@deatech.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, strawbale@crest.org Subject: GBlist: sealing earth Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Several people asked me about the details on Enviro Loc for adobe which I used to seal the exterior of my earthen plastered straw bale home in Northern Michigan. Enviro Loc is a proprietary product made by Global Kinetics, Inc. 1951 W. Camelback Rd. Suite 220, Phoenix, AZ 85015 USA. office (602) 433-0479 fax (602) 433-0614 e-mail The MSDS states that there are no hazardous ingredients. It is a mineral spirit based material at 95% mineral spirits and 5% proprietary ingredients. The MSDS recomends the use of a respirator when applying the product. I used one but found it to be a low odor material. The manufacturer claims that it is extermely vapor permeable and completely water proof when applied properly. I can attest to the water proof part for the six months that it has been applied to my house in Northern Michigan. The manufactrer claims that this material has been in use for seven years and has not needed a reapplication yet. They have other products of similar chemistry for concrete that have been in place for 15 years without the need for recoating, they claim. I had a problem with the material turning whitish where the application overlapped or dripped. It is advertised as being colorless. The rep has promised compensation, though I have not recieved it yet. The adobe product costs $60/gallon. I used five gallons for my 820 square foor earthen plastered SB house. I will know more soon as I installed moisture sensors in the walls and will be getting a meter to read them next week. This product was reccommended to me by Bill Steen of the Canelo Project. He has used it on some test projects in Arizona and is happy with it. Feel free to post any further questions or contact me directly. Keith ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 7 07:53:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA29219 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 07:53:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22115; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 07:45:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Mar 1999 07:41:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA21830 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 07:40:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (tor-smtp2.netcom.ca [207.181.101.101]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21826 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 07:40:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on1-42.netcom.ca [207.181.90.106]) by tor-smtp2.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA14917; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 07:42:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990307074000.009dae00@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 07:42:13 -0400 To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: Retrofitting the House as a system Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <36E1D156.4A9DBF3F@atlasinc.on.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk At 08:07 PM 06/03/99 -0500, Neil Spiegel wrote: >Does anyone know of any good resources of information on the >benefits/complexities of >retrofitting towards tightness? I believe CMHC has a good book or two on this very topic. Check with the the Canadian Housing Information Centre at (613)748-2312 ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 7 10:09:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00005 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:09:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25190; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:00:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Mar 1999 09:56:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24886 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 09:56:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24882 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 09:56:28 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ783553; Sun, 7 Mar 99 07:58:29 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79146; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 07:58:12 -0700 Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 07:58:12 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: Arlie Haig Cc: Greenbuilding discussion list , CN , STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: Re: GBlist: reverse metering and assumptions we make In-Reply-To: <000e01be6817$24376820$afe7c9d0@baja> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Arlie: We use a Bruhltech ECM 200 Energy Consumption Monitor which gives kWh, kW and $ up to 100 hours at which point we record the info. Small and handy. It can do 2 appliances at one time. It is in constant demand at home or lent to clients. Jorg ostrowski _____________________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, Arlie Haig wrote: > > Does anyone know of a device to measure kWh of a specific appliance > (computer, refrigerator, etc.)? If there isn't such, couldn't it be built > easily? > -----Original Message----- > From: CN > To: Greenbuilding discussion list > Cc: STEPHEN OFFUTT > Date: Saturday, March 06, 1999 12:41 PM > Subject: GBlist: reverse metering and assumptions we make > > > >Stephen, > > > >Of course I agree with your points but let me put my comments on "costs" of > >photovoltaics (PV) into perspective. I have lived with PV as the sole > >source of my electricity for many years. The person who started this > >thread was complaining that she was only being offered $0.02/kwh for her PV > >electricity from her utility and being charged something like $0.10/kWh for > >grid supplied power. So, current prices seemed to be the issue of interest > >to the initial poster. > > > >There has been constant talk of a reduction in PV price per watt in the > >last 10 years since I bought my first panel, but the actual reduction in > >price in these last 10 years has been almost negligible. All the big price > >reductions came in the years before I bought PV. Of course I hope that > >price breakthroughs will come in the future, but I'm not counting on it in > >my advice to people planning to buy systems now. > > > >The vast majority of people who express interest in my PV powered home have > >the misconception (or hope) that using PV will somehow lower their electric > >bills. I get tired of trying to explain to them that in fact, PV's cost > >about 10 times more per usable kWh in the real world of home scale > >electricity. I can afford it because my home is roughly 10 times more > >efficient than the average home. To achieve this 10 fold efficiency > >improvement has taken much more thought and research than it did to install > >and use the PV system itself! > > > >I think it would be great if more people used PVs for their electricity. > >But those whose prime motivation is saving money need to be shown that you > >save money by conserving energy, not by generating energy in a novel > >fashion. What you can save by using PVs is the Earth, but in our present > >economic system, that is given very little dollar value. > > > >By the way, I'm glad the EPA has it's energy star program. But when I have > >actually tried to take advantage of it, I have found it to be way behind my > >needs. I've wanted to know the actual wattage draw of computer equipment, > >but Energy Star ratings only give products a pass/fail and as I mentioned > >in other posts, Energy Star has done nothing to require products to provide > >accurate figures for power consumption under typical use conditions. For > >instance, a VDT monitor that uses 100 watts and an LCD monitor that uses 25 > >watts, both get Energy Star certified as long as they have a sleep mode. > >But the LCD monitor uses 1/4 the energy during my typical work routine (I > >shut off my computer when I'm not using it). > > > >Sometimes I point out to people, that if everyone and every institution in > >the country took the same type of steps I have taken to reduce my > >electricity consumption, we could shut down 9 out of 10 existing power > >plants virtually overnight! The electricity industry results in more > >pollution, habitat destruction, social disruption, and dollar expense than > >any other industry in the U.S. according to a study I read recently. What > >a difference it could make. And we wouldn't need a single PV to do it. > >Although I admit they are good conversation starters. > > > >Enjoying a wonderful March blizzard in northern New York, > > > >Chris Neurath > > > >------------------------------ > > > >>Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 14:19:06 -0500 > >From: STEPHEN OFFUTT > >Subject: GBlist: reverse metering and assumptions we make > > > >Chris [cneurath@tds.net] said: > > > >". . .But even if you could get net metering for a photovoltaic system, it > >would never pay > >for itself in a grid-intertie situation at today's prices for PVs and > >utility power. You would > >simply be making a political and/or moral statement." > >___________________________________ > > > >>These kinds of statements regarding cost-effectiveness of a particular > >>system or some > >other efficiency measure or whatever abound on this list and elsewhere. > >Chris's caveat > >("today's prices. . .") is huge. Today's prices are ephemeral, so how can > >we possibly > >feel comfortable making analyses using them.... > > > > Contact Information: > >Steve Offutt - ENERGY STAR Programs, U. S. EPA > > 202-564-9791 202-565-2079 (fax) > >offutt.stephen@epa.gov > > ENERGY STAR Hotline: 1-888-STAR-YES > >www.epa.gov/energystar.html > >============= > > > > > >______________________________________________________________________ > >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > >Environmental Building News and Oikos > >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > >______________________________________________________________________ > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 7 10:25:25 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA00067 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:25:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA25810; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:13:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA25555 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA25551 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:13:24 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ866111; Sun, 7 Mar 99 08:15:29 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79152; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 08:15:17 -0700 Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 08:15:17 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: CN Cc: Greenbuilding discussion list , STEPHEN OFFUTT Subject: Re: GBlist: reverse metering and assumptions we make In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk You said:"The electricity industry results in more pollution, habitat destruction, social disruption, and dollar expense than any other industry in the U.S. according to a study I read recently." __________________________________________________________________ Chris: Thank you for your worthy comments based on real-world experience. I forwarded your comments to a possibly enlightened utility for their action. What is your average kWh/day consumption and which study are you referring to above? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 7 11:17:41 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA00499 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:17:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA27303; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:09:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:05:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA27029 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:05:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.cow-net.com (7.cow-net.com [207.107.185.7] (may be forged)) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA27025 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:05:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com ([207.107.185.36]) by ns.cow-net.com with ESMTP (IPAD 2.06) id 4580200 ; Sun, 07 Mar 1999 08:35:51 -0800 Message-ID: <36E2A40B.8883B1DA@cow-net.com> Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 08:06:36 -0800 From: JOHN SALMEN X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nspiegel@atlasinc.on.ca, "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Retrofitting the House as a system References: <36E1D156.4A9DBF3F@atlasinc.on.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Neil Spiegel wrote: > > > Does anyone know of any good resources of information on the benefits/complexities of > retrofitting towards tightness? > > So let me ask for a more baseline resource too. Does anyone know of any resources which > discuss indoor air flow in detail to give a solid understanding of the invisible motion of > air/heat/vapour and their retardents. > The following url http://www-archfp.ced.berkeley.edu/vitalsigns/res/rps.html brings you to the vital signs project resources page - they have a couple great pdf texts intended for students. One entitled 'Observing air flow in buildings' gives a good basic understanding their are a few others as well 'building balance point' looks at thermal performance. john ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 7 12:08:06 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA00941 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:08:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA29481; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:00:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:56:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA29181 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:56:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA29176 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:55:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.122] (newhenyusr0-a122.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.122]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA12093 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:58:01 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:03:21 -0500 To: Greenbuilding discussion list From: CN Subject: Re: GBlist: reverse metering and assumptions we make Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk >You said:"The electricity industry results in more >pollution, habitat destruction, social disruption, and dollar expense than >any other industry in the U.S. according to a study I read recently." >__________________________________________________________________ >Chris: Thank you for your worthy comments based on real-world >experience. I forwarded your comments to a possibly enlightened >utility for their action. What is your average kWh/day consumption and >which study are you referring to above? Jorg Ostrowski Since I produce much more electricity than I consume (I now have a micro-hydro to supplement the PV), I haven't kept real close track of my present consumption. But a quick estimate: * 5 hours computer/peripheral use per day @ 100 w 500 Wh * 8 hours lighting per day; two 15 W compact flur. 240 Wh * HRV, 50 W for about 4 hours per day 200 Wh * misc. water pumps, radio, tools, appliances (no refrig, freezer or heat producing appliances; those are all propane) 300 Wh TOTAL daily consumption 1240 Watt-hours That's probably accurate to +/- 50% If I was selling it to the grid for $0.10/kWh, I would get about $3.75 a month. Not enough to make it even remotely worth my while for the extra equipment needed. And I don't have affordable grid access to begin with. This is for a one person household. My neighbors, who also have PV and share the micro-hydro, have a 4 person household and probably use 2 to 3 times as much electricity. On average, I generate at least 2000 Wh a day, roughly half and half PV/hydro. As for the study, I have been looking for the original for a while now. I saw it on an energy web site. I believe it was Pace University's Environmental Law site and it was a guest lecture by a former assistant secretary of energy under George Bush I believe. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find my download (if I ever did copy it), and I believe they have since taken it off their web site. Or maybe it was on a different web site. However, I vividly remember his statement that the U.S. electric industry is the single largest polluting industry, and the single industry with most revenues, and he specifically said more than even automobile manufacturing, just to reinforce the point. It goes without saying that their political might is also way up there. No wonder that laws are passed to benefit utilities, not citizens. Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 7 13:22:28 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01900 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:22:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02331; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:14:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:10:14 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA01973 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:10:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01968 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:10:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us [198.187.135.22]) by linknet.kitsap.lib.wa.us (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA02153; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:08:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:08:19 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Courtright To: CN cc: Greenbuilding discussion list Subject: Re: GBlist: reverse metering and assumptions we make In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, CN wrote: > Since I produce much more electricity than I consume (I now have a > micro-hydro to supplement the PV), I haven't kept real close track of my > present consumption. Can you provide some info on the micro hydro system you're using? -|//*Alan Courtright*\\|= Poulsbo, WA acourtri@krl.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 7 13:28:12 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01950 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:28:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA02778; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:19:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:16:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02423 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:15:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02419 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:15:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (1Cust169.tnt12.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.33.169]) by hawk.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA02397; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 10:17:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36E2C1E8.50EB@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 10:14:00 -0800 From: Seth Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net Organization: Master Builders X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, hlevin@cruzio.com Subject: Re: reply; GBlist: Green Building "Inventory" issue References: <000001be68ba$31596320$dde7fea9@dell> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hal Levin wrote: > > Bion: > > Yes, I agree with your message - to count green buildings, the first question is > not "how many?" but, rather, "what?" > .... > So what is "green"? I see it is little more than a marketing term. Like > "healthy" or "natural," more or less, for food or medication. > .... > It all comes down to values and equity and the seriousness of the endeavor. If > it simply a matter of agreeing on a label for our efforts to do a little better, > then it doesn't much matter to the planet what is definied as green or how.it is > defined. If we are concerned about the future of the planet and seven > generations, we must go far beyond the point systems and develop a rigorous > analysis as a basis for determining what we should encourage designers, > builders, and building owners and users to use as a standard for evaluating > their buildings' environmental performance. > > Hal Hal: Thank you for such a poignant summary of the issue of "green" standards. Well stated! With all respect, I would only change the last sentence: "If we are concerned about the future of the planet and seven generations, we must go far beyond the point systems and [promote a complete revolution in the ways we live, consume, and relate to one another and the earth]." I am unsure how designers and builders are going to persuade home owners and businesses to adopt a baseline such as India's (exactly as India is rapidly trying to adopt ours). Seth ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 7 13:31:32 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01981 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:31:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03259; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:23:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:19:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02661 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02657 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:19:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-50-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.50]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA11928 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:21:16 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990307132056.007f18c0@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 13:20:56 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Re: direct vent instantaneous Myson propane-fired water heater In-Reply-To: <199903060700.CAA05220@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I got the installation istructions sent to me for the direct vent (sealed combustion) instantaneous Myson propane-fired water heater and was dismayed to learn that it requires an electric freeze-proofing device in cold climates, such as mine... I wonder if it's possible to make such a unit that would not require this.... or if anyone already does... Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc 45 Perkins Rd. Montpelier VT 05602 Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc 45 Perkins Rd. Montpelier VT 05602 802.229.5676 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 7 13:31:45 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA01987 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:31:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA03279; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:23:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:19:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02684 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:19:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02679 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:19:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.together.net.together.net (dial-50-MAX-MPVT-01.ramp.together.net [207.41.56.50]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA11969 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 13:21:29 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990307131958.007f1eb0@pop.together.net> X-Sender: ashapiro@pop.together.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 13:19:58 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Andy Shapiro Subject: GBlist: Concrete floors in schools Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk I am working on a large school project, where the default floor is vinyl tile. I wouldl ike to propose sealed concrete, colored in some interesting way. We did a small classroom building for this school with a sealed concrete floor (sealed by the concrete contractor, as the slab was drying) and have gotten complaints of dust coming from the concrete floor. Does anyone have any experience with this as an issue? What level of sealing, if any, is required to avoid such a problem (if it really exists)? Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc 45 Perkins Rd. Montpelier VT 05602 Andy Shapiro Energy Balance, Inc 45 Perkins Rd. Montpelier VT 05602 802.229.5676 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 7 14:13:00 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02550 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 14:13:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05089; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 14:05:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Mar 1999 14:00:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA04810 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 14:00:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from harrier.csrv.uidaho.edu (root@harrier.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.224]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA04805 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 14:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin049.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.59]) by harrier.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/) with SMTP id LAA10545; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 11:02:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36E2CCBC.674@uidaho.edu> Date: Sun, 07 Mar 1999 11:00:12 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andy Shapiro CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Concrete floors in schools References: <3.0.6.32.19990307131958.007f1eb0@pop.together.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Andy, 'though I have not used it personally (yet) - I am intrigued by a water-based, vapor permeable product called Masonry Boss made by Weather-bos (www.weatherbos.com). It can be purchased factory-direct at very reasonable prices. It is 'clear odorless' 'formulated to be environmentally safe' and primary uses include interior concrete slabs and tile floors as well as exterior stucco, masonry, brick, concrete... I worked with a concrete contractor on a project that included finish colored concrete floors. We used an acrylic based sealer while the slab was green to slow the cure. It was not intended to be the finish sealer...'though the owners have not chosen to reseal. I haven't noticed dusting, but its a residential floor...not a school. Kurt Rathmann Moscow, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 7 14:29:38 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA02892 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 14:29:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA05933; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 14:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Mar 1999 14:17:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA05598 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 14:17:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903071917.OAA05598@solstice.crest.org> From: "PETER F. ALSPACH" To: "Green building list" Subject: Re: GBlist: Green Schools Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 19:05:13 -0700 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk The new Solar Today has an article about the positive effects of day-lighting in a school. Increased attendance and test scores- numbers educators like to see. Durant Middle School Raleigh, NC (more info in Nov/Dec 95 issue apparently) info contact: Innovative Design 850 West Morgan St. Raleigh, NC 27603 919-832-6303 Pete Alspach Environmental Building News the leading newsletter on environmentally responsible design & construction 122 Birge St. Ste 30, Brattleboro, VT 05301 802/257-7300, 802/257-7304 (fax) http://www.ebuild.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 7 15:02:05 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA03253 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 15:02:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07279; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 14:54:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Mar 1999 14:50:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07025 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 14:50:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA06984 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 14:49:54 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ916561; Sun, 7 Mar 99 12:51:33 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA64974; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:51:28 -0700 Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 12:51:28 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: CN Cc: Greenbuilding discussion list Subject: Re: GBlist: reverse metering and assumptions we make In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk You said:"TOTAL daily consumption 1240 Watt-hours This is for a one person household. My neighbors, who also have PV and share the micro-hydro, have a 4 person household and probably use 2 to 3 times as much electricity." _______________________________________________________________________ Chris: Thanks for your response. 1.2 KWhr/person/day is a laudible achievement. The consumption for our home/office is about 2.2 kWh/person/day, so your performance will be our target. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Mar 7 19:38:30 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA07290 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 19:38:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA19194; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 19:30:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Mar 1999 19:25:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA18775 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 19:25:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from x16.boston.juno.com (x16.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18771 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 19:25:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from shardon5@juno.com) by x16.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id D458R9DD; Sun, 07 Mar 1999 19:27:32 EST To: ashapiro@together.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 17:24:19 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: direct vent instantaneous Myson propane-fired water heater Message-ID: <19990307.172421.-202987.27.shardon5@juno.com> X-Mailer: Juno 2.0.11 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 2 X-Juno-Att: 0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: sharon j emley Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk HI, I would like further information on the Myson heater, particularly if it works with natural gas and if anyone has compared it carefully to the Aquastar unit. In general, how much trouble are these units with hard water. Thanks. Don Arkin ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Mar 8 00:00:08 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA10225 for ; Mon, 8 Mar 1999 00:00:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAB00140; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 23:52:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 7 Mar 1999 23:47:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA29284 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 23:47:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA29280 for ; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 23:47:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.114] (newhenyusr0-a114.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.114]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA23166; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 22:49:27 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 23:54:44 -0500 To: Greenbuilding discussion list , Alan Courtright From: CN Subject: Re: GBlist: reverse metering and assumptions we make Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk >On Sun, 7 Mar 1999, CN wrote: > >> Since I produce much more electricity than I consume (I now have a >> micro-hydro to supplement the PV), I haven't kept real close track of my >> present consumption. > >Can you provide some info on the micro hydro system you're using? > > -|//*Alan Courtright*\\|= > Poulsbo, WA > acourtri@krl.org > Some info on our micro-hydro system: 15 ft of head (7 psi) with maximum flow of 600 gallons per minute. It flows through 250 feet of 8 inch diameter penstock pipe. There are two generators made by Energy Systems and Design of New Brunswick. The generators have custom rewound Ford alternators and turgo wheels. The maximum production from both generators is about 400 watts. We rarely try to run the maximum flow through them. Right now they are producing a total of about 200 watts, half of which is going to a light bulb in the generator shed to help keep things from freezing. So, split between two houses is about 100 watts. And that provides more than enough electricity for both houses. 100 watts times 24 hours is 2400 Wh or 2.4 kWh per day. Both houses also have PV. We have a 2 foot high dam to make the stream deep enough to flow into our pipe. There is a 10 foot long by 1 foot diameter intake screen to keep out leaves etc. The nozzles at the generators are 1" diameter so we have to keep out anything around that size. The generators are permanent magnet so there are no brushes to wear out. We've been running them for much of 3 years now and have not had to replace the bearings yet. We ususally don't run them in the dry times of summer. Not enough water and too much risk of lightning damage. The generators are located more than a mile from my house and about a half mile from my neighbors house. To minimize line losses we run the generators at 240 VAC 3 phase through 14 gauge buried cable. At each house we have custom built transformers/rectifiers/controllers to charge our 12 VDC battery banks from the hydro electricity. Problems we have had to overcome have been intake screen clogging, lightning damage to generators and transformers, Spring flood damage to penstock, winter freeze-ups. The original design and installation also took many, many hours and much effort. Our particular site and system has many complications that many people with hydro sites don't have to worry about: relatively low head/high flow very cold winters inability to bury penstock due to bed rock a mile and a half of combined power line crossing very lightning-prone areas very long transmission line active beavers just upstream from our dam: when their dams wash out we get lots of debris The project was 50% funded by a grant from the New York State Energy Office. Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 12 15:39:21 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA03702 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:39:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA10460; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:30:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:24:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA09876 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:24:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.3.78]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09868 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:24:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from pop05.execpc.com (pop05.execpc.com [169.207.3.82]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.9.0) id OAA21438 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:26:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from execpc.com (tigella-2-130.mdm.mad.execpc.com [169.207.109.132]) by pop05.execpc.com (8.8.8) id OAA03866 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:26:27 -0600 Message-ID: <36E97828.755A724B@execpc.com> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:25:12 -0600 From: Kent Tenney X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Using old concrete Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Howdy, Do rubble/trench foundations use old concrete? Can old concrete be used effectively in new construction? I will be putting up a pole barn on a slab, and have old concrete to dispose of, am hoping to address both issues at once. TIA Kent ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 12 16:06:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA04181 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:06:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12209; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:53:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:47:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA11551 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:47:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from premier1.premier1.net (root@premier1.premier1.net [206.40.134.38]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11545 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:47:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from chris (frn1-109.premier1.net [206.129.118.109]) by premier1.premier1.net (8.8.6/8.7) with SMTP id MAA19829; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:49:54 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: From: "Chris Webb" To: "Kent Tenney" , Subject: GBlist: Using old concrete/Rubble Trenches Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:48:59 -0800 Message-ID: <000001be6cc9$c0dba900$6d7681ce@chris> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <36E97828.755A724B@execpc.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone know where to get engineering design information about Rubble Trenches? Or even any research reports, etc? I have used the Frost Protected Shallow Footing Information Successfully. Thanks, Chris Webb ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 12 16:11:28 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA04312 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:11:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA13191; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:02:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:57:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA12519 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:57:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo21.mx.aol.com (imo21.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.65]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA12515 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:57:01 -0500 (EST) From: GrenSheltr@aol.com Received: from GrenSheltr@aol.com by imo21.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id 6AHWa18753 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:58:31 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <38cfd5dd.36e97ff7@aol.com> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:58:31 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Using old concrete Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 13 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated 3/12/99 3:29:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, ktenney@execpc.com writes: << Can old concrete be used effectively in new construction? >> recently I saw where a house had been built using broken up concrete pieces from a sidewalk - they were used as bricks or stones with mortar, but I cannot remember where I saw or read this --- does this ring a bell with anyone ??? would love to find the reference again ---- Linda Lloyd ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 12 16:14:56 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA04380 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:14:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA13461; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:06:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:00:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA12918 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:00:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA12914 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from martin (slip129-37-62-146.ca.us.ibm.net [129.37.62.146]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA39146 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:02:55 GMT Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990312050423.009f6b40@pop6.banet.net> X-Sender: usbanet.martyk@pop6.banet.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 05:04:23 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Martin Kaufman Subject: GBlist: Ole Ersson on his compost water heater Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Ole gave me permission to distribute this response to the list. >X-Sender: krishna@rdrop.com >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) >Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:20:11 -0800 >To: Martin Kaufman >From: Ersson Family >Subject: Re: Your compost water heater > >Martin, > >Thanks for your comments. > >The plastic pipe I used is rated safe for water use. I don't believe >anything unsafe leaches into the water as it passes through. > >I see no reason one couldn't use the composting greenhouse heat to warm a >dwelling. I figured I extracted only a small portion of the heat anyway -- >most of it dissipated into the atmosphere! > >I covered the greenhouse in uV resistant plastic 6 mil greenhouse film to >shelter the bales from the rain. It preserved the bales well. > >Good luck with your projects. > >Regards, Ole Ersson > >At 07:38 PM 3/10/99 -0500, you wrote: >>Hi, I just stumbled upon your articles and am absolutely fascinated. Have >>you done any more experimentation since these were written? I'm planning to >>create a sustainable homestead in Vermont and think your idea is the cat's >>meow. I wonder if the greenhouse could even create heat for the house >>proper? Is there any problem with chemicals from the plastic tubing >>leaching into the hot water? You don't seem to have created a permanent >>structure around the straw bales...how did you keep them from getting wet >>when it rained? Appreciate your thoughts. >> >>Martin Kaufman >> >> >> >---- http://www.rdrop.com/users/krishna ---- >experiments in sustainable urban living: rainwater harvesting, strawbale >construction, waterless toilets, compost heating, rooftop gardening > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 12 16:23:22 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA04500 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:23:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12621; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:58:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:52:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA12084 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:52:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA12077 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:52:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix.mail.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa21302; 12 Mar 99 15:54 EST Received: from [128.143.75.215] (bootp-75-215.bootp.Virginia.EDU [128.143.75.215]) by unix.mail.Virginia.EDU (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA60692 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:54:55 -0500 Message-Id: <199903122054.PAA60692@unix.mail.Virginia.EDU> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.02 (298) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:54:51 -0500 Subject: GBlist: passive solar homes From: BRN To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone have a name or URL for builders in the Central Virginia area that specialize in Passive Solar design and construction? I have checked out the Directory of Green Building Professionals at http://www.greenbuilder.com/directory/, but ony a single architect shows up. Any other suggestions? Thanks, Bart ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 12 17:09:04 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA05453 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:09:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA16309; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:54:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA15946 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:54:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from yourpalsat.netmeg.net (root@yourpalsat.netmeg.net [208.139.83.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA15934 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:54:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from swinter.com (ppp01-21.netmeg.net [208.139.83.84]) by yourpalsat.netmeg.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA00533; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:56:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36E98DB5.666CF802@swinter.com> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:57:09 -0500 From: Debra Lombard Organization: Steven Winter Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BRN CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: passive solar homes References: <199903122054.PAA60692@unix.mail.Virginia.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk See http://www.sni.net/solar/websites.htm debra lombard BRN wrote: > Does anyone have a name or URL for builders in the Central Virginia > area that specialize in Passive Solar design and construction? > > I have checked out the Directory of Green Building Professionals at > http://www.greenbuilder.com/directory/, but ony a single architect shows up. > Any other suggestions? > > Thanks, > > Bart > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 12 17:50:50 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA06443 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:50:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18681; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:42:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:38:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA18368 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:38:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net (dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net [206.196.128.4]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA18362 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:37:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 14072 invoked by alias); 12 Mar 1999 22:38:10 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-greenbuilding@crest.org@fixme Received: (qmail 12094 invoked by uid 0); 12 Mar 1999 22:37:05 -0000 Received: from kdialup86.dnvr.uswest.net (HELO h5n5y7) (209.180.241.86) by dnvrpop2.dnvr.uswest.net with SMTP; 12 Mar 1999 22:37:05 -0000 Message-ID: <006f01be6cd8$76b71bc0$56f1b4d1@h5n5y7> From: "PETER F. ALSPACH" To: "Green building list" Subject: GBlist: Fly ash concrete-nasty or nice? Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:34:16 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Hi, I just had a class yesterday in which we were discussing pollutants from MSW power plants and incinerators. The topic of fly ash came up and our prof. said it was quite nasty stuff indeed. Heavy metals, dioxins... When he mentioned the use of it in concrete, it was as a means of stabilizing the hazardous waste so that it could be landfilled and not leach out as much. He also said that coal fly ash is very similar in content to MSW fly ash with the exception of lower dioxin concentrations and should still be considered toxic. The only ash which he said could be considered for use was the bottom ash, but that even it should be matured in a controlled setting to remove as many leachates as possible. Then he recommended it in roads only. If this is true, the use of fly ash in building concrete should be severely questioned. Can anyone out there give any info on the above, either confirming or refuting the above toxicity statements? Do the toxins in fly ash concrete leach out very much? Thanks, Pete Alspach U. of Colorado-Boulder ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 12 18:08:43 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA06814 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:08:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA19785; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:00:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:56:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA19386 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:55:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19380 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:55:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id QAA0000001107; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:58:08 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19990312230113.00b47a74@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:01:13 -0600 To: GrenSheltr@aol.com From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Using old concrete Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Linda, pretty sure you saw the article with a picture of Patagonia's CEO's house in the last issue of EBN, about building small. It looked pretty good but I would want to see it 'in person' before I used it that way. As rubble in a trench now, that's another matter. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 12 18:12:01 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA06877 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:12:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20108; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:03:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:59:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA19682 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:59:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA19678 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 17:59:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp-gw01.ny.us.ibm.net (slip166-72-225-97.az.us.ibm.net [166.72.225.97]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA66964; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 23:01:52 GMT Message-Id: <199903122301.XAA66964@out2.ibm.net> To: "PETER F. ALSPACH" , greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Post Road Mailer for OS/2 (Green Edition Ver 2.5) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 16:04:06 MST From: Racheli Gai Reply-To: John Palmer Subject: Re: GBlist: Fly ash concrete-nasty or nice? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Addressed to: "PETER F. ALSPACH" greenbuilding@crest.org ** Reply to note from "PETER F. ALSPACH" Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:34:16 -0700 >From Racheli Hi Peter, The ADPSR Architectural Resource Guide presents the opinion that addition of fly ash to concrete is a positive thing in terms of sustainability, but warns that fly ash can be contaminated with toxic waste from chemical and nuclear industries, and therefore advises caution. R. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Mar 12 18:22:29 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA07116 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:22:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA20739; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:14:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:10:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA20381 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:09:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from pinetree.babb.com (pinetree.babb.com [209.140.58.201]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA20377 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:09:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from apple.babb.com by pinetree.babb.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1457.7) id DS079VHY; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:15:14 -0500 Received: by apple.babb.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BE6CB2.E8533BE0@apple.babb.com>; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:05:27 -0500 Message-ID: <01BE6CB2.E8533BE0@apple.babb.com> From: Jillanna Babb To: "'PETER F. ALSPACH'" , "'GBLIST'" Subject: RE: GBlist: Fly ash concrete-nasty or nice? Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:05:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id SAA20378 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Goodness... Well, the flyash dragon has reared its head again, so here I am to talk about it. CFA is very different from MSW flyash. Who knows what kind of waste is burned in the MSW incinerator? It is not as specific and controllable as coal burning. Please be aware that flyash can differ greatly from source to source. Even coal flyash can differ, esp. if it is from different geographical regions. One must always test test test! Another thing... They (power company contacts) tell me that bottom ash contains much more nasties than flyash. It is much more difficult to find decent bottom ash to use... The RILEM book *Autoclaved Aerated Concrete: Properties, Testing, and Design* (Edited by S. Aroni, G.J. de Groot, M.J. Robinson, G. Svanholm, and F.H. Wittman. E & FN SPON, London, 1993) has some relevant tables on pages 41 and 42, if you can find that book. Also, you might request MSDS on flyash from any power company... Let me know if you need contact info or links... Always look for the documentation of these things you hear. I have heard them also... and wonder why some people make generalized claims like that without having proper evidence. By the way, the EPA lists flyash as a nonhazardous waste. You might want to check that out too.... Good luck. And please let me know what you find! Jillanna Babb-Cheshul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 13 00:03:04 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11861 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:03:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA02831; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 23:54:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Mar 1999 23:46:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02389 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 23:46:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [209.210.78.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02385 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 23:45:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (usr47.cwo.com [207.173.11.47]) by mail.cwo.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA13792; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:49:06 -0800 Message-ID: <004e01be6d0c$66039ae0$2f0badcf@default> Reply-To: "Nehemiah I. Stone" From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: "STEPHEN OFFUTT" , Subject: GBlist: Re: What's green - Clarification Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:45:59 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk The figures that I have for the U.S. are between what I earlier stated and what Stephen stated. Percent of U.S. energy use (quoting from the Climate Change Action Plan prepared by DOE for the Clinton Administration): Commercial Bldgs. 11% Residential Bldgs. 15% Industrial 39% Transportation 35% Bldgs. Total 26% About 35% less than Transportation In California, it is even more dramatic, but that will have to wait til Monday. Nehemiah ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 13 00:11:46 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA11993 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA01008; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:32:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:25:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA00655 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:25:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [209.210.78.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA00650 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:25:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (usr47.cwo.com [207.173.11.47]) by mail.cwo.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA07050; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:28:27 -0800 Message-ID: <001501be6d01$21af8b20$2f0badcf@default> Reply-To: "Nehemiah I. Stone" From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: "STEPHEN OFFUTT" , Subject: GBlist: Re: What's green - Clarification Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:25:18 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk you said, "____________________ The notes I keep show the following breakdown: 34% industry 26% transportation 20% residential buildings 16% commercial buildings (= 36% all buildings) So these figures show buildings using about 40% more energy than transportation. A little factoid we like to throw around because it raises eyebrows and awareness of the potential opportunities is, "The average house is responsible for more greenhouse gas emissions than the average car." (About 2:1 in fact). Is my breakdown above jive with others' figures?" That doesn't jive with California data. When I get back to work Monday, I'll share CA percentages with you. Nehemiah ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 13 00:31:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA12182 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:31:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA04215; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:20:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:16:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA03862 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:16:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [209.210.78.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA03857 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:16:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (usr1.cwo.com [207.173.11.1]) by mail.cwo.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA16546 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:19:55 -0800 Message-ID: <005401be6d10$b3d90080$2f0badcf@default> Reply-To: "Nehemiah I. Stone" From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #518 Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:16:47 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Dan, You said, ". There has been talk in the past about window materials and design but I can't seem to locate them in the archives. Regarding glass, I've found 1" argon filled insulated units with a U of .25, but has anyone found anything better, I'd like to know. Thanks. Regards, Dan Harazim" Both Jorg and Alex have given good advice; I'd like to add to it. 1) Don't put too much stock in Argon, particularly in the configuration you mentioned (see second paragraph). Argon has a tendency to leave confined spaces, if it was ever there in teh first place. By this I mean that it is highly likely that the manufacturer only achieved a 60-75% fill of argon, and that may well be gone by the end of five years. There is exactly one technology that I know of which achieves greater than a 95% fill and keeps it there. I don't work for these folks so this isn't a shameless plug. Cardinal IG has a process that leaves the spacer without any "fill" (actually, "leak") holes in it . They have licensed their process to some others, but any spacer you see that has a little plug or two (near one of the corners) will leak. Secondly, each kind of fill gas, including air, has an optimim cavity width before the insulating value starts dropping off. Sue Reilly (now of Enermodal, then of LBL) did a study on the optimal widths of spacers for various gases. Air's is ~1/2". Argon's is ~3/8". And Krypton's is ~1/4". Above that, you get convection currents inside the insulated glazing and the R-value drops off. 2) Make sure that paying for extremely low U-value glass is what you want to do with the energy efficiency budget. You might be better off getting moderately good glazing (just before the break point to the more expensive tier), and putting the rest of the EE budget into the attic, air handlers, etc. 3) Make sure, as Alex stated, that the glass is matched to the mass for the expected incident solar radiation. A too-hot building isn't any more comfortable than a too-cold one. 4) And last, consider a whole new approach to the existing openings. There is a glass that has solar collectors built into it, so that it reduces unwanted solar gains at the same time as it is genrating electricity. The gas company might like to be in a position of buying fewer elctrons from the electric company. Even if you cannot go for the solar collecting glass, there are 'sunscreens' that are collectors and which can artfully integrated into the building, so they don't look like they are "hung off the side." If you are interested in this last suggestion, the expert on the topic lives in your neck of the woods (or so it seems to someone on the other shore of the continent). I don't have his name off hand, but he made a presentation to the Energy Commission a little over a year ago. I can get his name and other vitals from a friend at the commission. Nehemiah ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 13 00:39:48 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA12233 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 00:39:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA03317; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 23:56:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 12 Mar 1999 23:52:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA02616 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 23:52:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [209.210.78.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA02609 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 23:52:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (usr47.cwo.com [207.173.11.47]) by mail.cwo.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA14438; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:55:41 -0800 Message-ID: <005001be6d0d$51800760$2f0badcf@default> Reply-To: "Nehemiah I. Stone" From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: "STEPHEN OFFUTT" , Subject: GBlist: Re: What's green - Clarification Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:52:33 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Actually, I found the source I was looking for here at home. In California, Energy Use by Sector is as follows: Transportation 49% Industrial 27% Commercial Bldgs. 11% Residential Bldgs. 13% Total Bldgs. 24% Roughly 1/2 as much as for transportation. Source: The California Energy Plan, 1997 [the state's energy policy document, produced by the California Energy Commission for the Governor's office] Nehemiah ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 13 07:07:37 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA15337 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:07:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA12218; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 06:59:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Mar 1999 06:55:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA12015 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 06:55:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA12011 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 06:55:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.170.72.101] (newhenyusr0-a101.herd.tds.net [208.170.72.101]) by mail.tds.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA02650; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 05:57:15 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: cneurath@mail.tds.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:02:28 -0500 To: , Jillanna Babb From: CN Subject: GBlist: Fly ash concrete-nasty or nice? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Jillanna, You say: "By the way, the EPA lists [coal] flyash as a nonhazardous waste. You might want to check that out too...." The EPA has also given MSW fly and bottom ash some huge loopholes to avoid being classified hazardous waste, despite very high levels of heavy metals, dioxins, etc. Federal courts have actually ruled that the EPA has been too lenient in classifying MSW waste. In matters such as this, where a lot of money hinges on the outcome, the EPA is often in the pockets of industry. Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 13 07:23:22 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA15413 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:23:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA12641; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:15:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:11:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA12415 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA12411 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:11:11 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ288540; Sat, 13 Mar 99 05:13:22 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA79556; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 05:13:21 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 05:13:21 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: "Nehemiah I. Stone" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: high performance windows In-Reply-To: <005401be6d10$b3d90080$2f0badcf@default> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Nehemiah: Thank you for the excellent contribution to this thread. I wonder if the optimal space for xenon was also tested? If the company for item #2 is not Kawneer, then I too would be interested in contact information. Although appropriate for office towers, item #2 is not so appropriate for residential in cold climates. I have been considering investigating the design of a window, based on piezoelectric generation day and night, due to high delta Ts in cold climates. If anyone thinks this may or may not work, or has any interest in this, please contact me off-list. Thank you for considering my requests. Jorg Ostrowski ___________________________________________________ You said: 1) ".... optimal widths of spacers for various gases. Air's is ~1/2". Argon's is ~3/8". And Krypton's is ~1/4". 2) There is a glass that has solar collectors built into it, so that it reduces unwanted solar gains at the same time as it is genrating electricity." ___________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 13 07:36:23 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA15491 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:36:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA12972; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:28:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:24:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA12778 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:24:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA12774 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:24:09 -0500 (EST) received: from acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca(136.159.34.205) by ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca via smap (V2.0) id ZZ599191; Sat, 13 Mar 99 05:26:23 -0700 Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA94250; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 05:26:14 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 05:26:14 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" X-Sender: jdo@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca To: CN Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, Jillanna Babb Subject: Re: GBlist: Fly ash concrete-nasty or nice? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk You said:"In matters such as this, where a lot of money hinges on the outcome, the EPA is often in the pockets of industry." ___________________________________________________________________________ Chris: You are right. It is not only the EPA, but many other government agencies and departments, in many countries. Their political expediency (as a result of lobbying) must always be factored into a cautious consideration of their official positions. INDEPENDENT, third party verification is always advised. Look at what happened to the new EPA headquarter building from an health risk point of view. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 13 07:58:47 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA15591 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:58:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA13589; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:46:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA13336 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:46:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo23.mx.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA13331 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:46:29 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv19.3) id 6MYAa24078 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:48:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:48:08 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Fly ash concrete-nasty or nice? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 9 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk >From cneurath@tds.net (CN)...Chris.....replying to Jilliana babb..... Apples and oranges....The coal fly ash that JBabb was referring to (and the source of the original question) is not the same as Municipal Solid Waste incinerator ash...they are different materials entirely. Also, although I don;t support incineration, almost all MSW ash is mono-filled. (When tested, it does have other, more useful uses). It would be helpful if list members would site scientific studies instead of generalizations. Coal Fly Ash has been thoroughly tested, peer reviewed, etc. etc. This reminds me of conversations and meetings years ago with highway engineers who were rigid regarding incorporating crumb rubber in asphalt roadways making all kinds of unscientific claims....years later, AFTER they had done demo projects and had empirical evidence it worked, the EXACT same questions were raised. I must ask, who's stuck where?? Dinosaurs are everywhere, sometimes in the environmental movement as well...CFA has been PROVEN safe by material engineers. <>where is the proof rather than assertions that EPA scientists are so heavily influenced by industry....I must question these knee jerk assertions regarding EPA and industry as being all bad,etc. The underlying assumptions to those assertions have little basis in fact but rely more on the fear of the unknown. Guess it was my turn for a Saturday morning rant... Phil Bailey/SustainAbility ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 13 09:02:13 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16342 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:02:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA14946; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:49:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA14656 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:49:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (tor-smtp1.netcom.ca [207.181.101.69]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA14652 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:49:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mheat (ott-on4-22.netcom.ca [207.181.90.214]) by tor-smtp1.netcom.ca (8.8.7-s-4/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA26698; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:51:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990313083721.009e1820@mha-net.org> X-Sender: mheat@mha-net.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:50:37 -0400 To: Michael Iversen From: Norbert Senf Subject: Re: GBlist: What's green - Clarification Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990312114425.006b06a8@tigger.cc.uic.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_3457990==_.ALT" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk --=====================_3457990==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:44 AM 12/03/99 -0600, Michael Iversen wrote: >Steve ... your information is timely, as energy costs and pollution >emissions attributed to buildings is of significant concern and interest to >my teaching and research. Could you please provide the sources for your >information ? Slightly different slant, but for those who haven't seen it yet, the paper by Blanchard and Reppe "Life Cycle Analysis of a Residential Home in Michigan" http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub/research/lcahome/index.html makes a compelling case for energy efficiency at almost any cost. Embodied energy considerations in building components pale in comparison to building life cycle energy consumption (and greenhouse gas generation). Better to build an efficient building from toxic waste (well, almost), than an inefficient one from natural, recyclable, renewable materials. A good antidote to the "minimize capital cost" orientation in the current marketplace - for example, as an argument against heat recovery ventilators (in cold climates). Best........Norbert ---------------------------------------- Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam) Masonry Stove Builders RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082 ---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092 --=====================_3457990==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" At 11:44 AM 12/03/99 -0600, Michael Iversen wrote:
>Steve ... your information is timely, as energy costs and pollution
>emissions attributed to buildings is of significant concern and interest to
>my teaching and research.  Could you please provide the sources for your
>information ?

Slightly different slant, but for those who haven't seen it yet, the paper by Blanchard and Reppe "Life Cycle Analysis of a Residential Home in Michigan"
http://www.umich.edu/~nppcpub/research/lcahome/index.html

makes a compelling case for energy efficiency at almost any cost. Embodied energy considerations in building components pale in comparison to building life cycle energy consumption (and greenhouse gas generation). Better to build an efficient building from toxic waste (well, almost), than an inefficient one from natural, recyclable, renewable materials. A good antidote to the "minimize capital cost" orientation in the current marketplace - for example, as an argument against heat recovery ventilators (in cold climates).

Best........Norbert
----------------------------------------
Norbert Senf---------- mheat@mha-net.org-nospam (remove nospam)
Masonry Stove Builders  
RR 5, Shawville------- www.mha-net.org/msb              
Quebec J0X 2Y0-------- fax:-----819.647.6082
---------------------- voice:---819.647.5092
                        
                
                                

--=====================_3457990==_.ALT-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Mar 13 09:51:44 1999 Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [209.67.217.1]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA16708 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:51:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA16295; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:43:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:39:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA15992 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:39:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.85]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA15987 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 09:39:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ip78.denver22.co.pub-ip.psi.net [38.31.4.78]) by gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA26561 for ; Sat, 13 Mar 1999 06:41:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990313073950.007b2d60@earthlink.net> X-Sender: paulandmegan@earthlink.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:39:50 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Paul and Megan Subject: Re: GBlist: Passive Refrigerator...wow! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk The concept Sharon describes is indeed for real. Harold R. Hay has been a champion of these 'roof pond' systems for decades, despite perceived opposition from NREL and other members of the 'establishment' who favor more high-tech approaches. For a summary of Hay's thoughts on the matter, see his advertisement/columns called 'Keep It Simple - Solar' that appeared in several issues of Solar Today in 1998. Paul Williams Boulder, CO sharon j emley wrote on 3/11/99 5:59 am: Hi, I hope that someone who knows more than me replys, but I do know that the night sky phenomenon is real and powerful however it is diminished by clouds and even humidity. The best studies on it were done in Phoenix, Az more than 20 years ago and I can get a cite for it tomorrow, but a researcher built a small house with a flat roof that was basically a 12 inch deep steel water tank. The ceiling below was uninsulated and the tank was outfitted with moveable rigid insulation. In the summer the water was insulated during the day and open to the sky at night and vice versa in the winter and that alone did a very good job of conditioning the house. The major difficulty in making this a mainstream system was the problem of moving the insulation. But some studies have measured roofs in the desert 20 to 30 degrees cooler than the ambient air temperature on a clear night. The problem with the system you describe, which probably will work to some extent, is that you have a very small surface area seeing the sky. Better would be to have a metal roof under or over which you can run copper or aluminum tubing. I am trying to incorporate something like this into a building in Tucson and running the cooled fluid through a fan coil for air conditioning. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________

I know of a kind that is called a = "trickle ventilator", made by Titon Inc.  Though, company = literature shows it used at the head sash of the window, not in a = mullion.  Maybe you can work with the company on a type which would = permit an application more suitable to your needs.  I found the = information in Sweet's Catalog.  Company info is:

Titon = Inc.
P.O. Box 6164
South Bend, Indiana = 46660
(216)271-9699
Fax (216) 271-9771

Jan
-
> = From: Motofumi.Tohda@oberlin.edu
> To: greenbuilding@crest.org
> Subject: GBlist: ventilated mullions
> = Date: Friday, January 23, 1998 9:38 AM
>
> hi,
> =
> I'm looking for companies in US who works with ventilated = mullions for
> windows.  it's a gudget which will passively = let the outside air in
> without opening the windows.
> any = help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
>
> = Moto Tohda
>
> = ______________________________________________________________________> This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST = <www.crest.org>
> Environmental Building News = <www.ebuild.com> and Oikos <www.oikos.com>
> For =  instructions send  e-mail to  greenbuilding-request@crest.org.
> = ______________________________________________________________________
------=_NextPart_000_01BD27F7.C1F1DA20-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 15:37:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA29799 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:37:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA17958 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:36:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15365; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:30:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:26:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA14970 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:26:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA14966 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:26:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.25.64.221] (usr2a25.rut.sover.net [206.25.64.221]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA18825 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:31:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:31:26 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: ebn@sover.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Nadav Malin Subject: GBlist: Cross-postings and mail overload! Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1463 Hi folks, I've been playing censor here a bit, and starting to feel qualms about it, so I thought I'd come clean. Fred's anti-organic-building rant got cross-posted to the strawbale list. As you might imagine, it generated some response. A number of people have tried to cross-post their responses back to the greenbuilding list. Our system doesn't allow someone who isn't a subscriber to the greenbuilding list to post messages, so those cross-posting get bounced to me and to Bruce Sullivan (the list moderators). This filter is ESSENTIAL to keep our list from getting hammered by spam. Anyhow, rather than forward these bounced messages on to the list, I'm choosing to ignore them. If you want to know what the strawbale folks are saying, you can just sign on to that list, or read the archives (housed at www.crest.org, right next to greenbuilding list archives). There. I've come clean. Thanks to all for such interesting discussions (I feel like I'm at a cocktail party, where i can actually listen in to all the conversations!) Nadav Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 15:53:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA29982 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:53:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA24079 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:52:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16214; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:46:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:42:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15831 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:42:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from radiks.net (root@sr.radiks.net [205.138.126.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15824 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:42:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from ics_7ab56 (pc-7AB-086.omhq.uprr.com [167.132.89.86]) by radiks.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA03878; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:47:45 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34C901DA.71B1@radiks.net> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:47:22 -0600 From: Tom Berthold X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Wilson CC: "Anna J.Jones-Crabtree" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: OFF TOPIC Rant A Procurement Adventure References: <19980123055105843.AAA365@[206.115.104.91]> <34C85A1C.58762A5E@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1464 John, I for one have little sympathy for those elements of society who commit serious crimes and find themselves in prison. I have no problem putting true offenders to work. Do you know how much each of these criminals costs society annualy by living in prison? I think it's something in the neighborhood of 50-60K. Education and reform would be great if they worked, but until we find something better, these dangerous people have to be kept behind bars. On the flip side I am concerned at the huge number of "drug offenders" who are incarcerated. Drugs are undoubtedly dangerous but there is the issue of free choice involved in these crimes. IMHO drug offenders don't belong in the same category as rapists, murderers, or armed robers. The drug laws sorely need to be reformed and the "war on drugs" has caused far more harm to society and more human misery than the drugs themselves! The other concern I have is as you noted that prison production takes business away from the free market, cutting into some hard working folk's bottom line. That is admittedly a serious problem with prison production. Perhaps if prisoners were required to cultivate their own food, make their own clothing, and perform basic building maintenance, they could help defray some of the costs of their incarceration without intefering with business interests in the outside world. (Might even build a little character) Purely from the standpoint of helping to pay their own way, and provided we are in agreement that these people should in fact to be in prison, I say make them work! Regards, Tom Berthold John Wilson wrote: > > Anna J.Jones-Crabtree wrote: > > > ...Consider my recent experience at ordering office partitions for our > > engineering group.... My procurement official told me she > > couldn't order from the supplier I wanted becuse they weren't on GSA > > contract. But supposedly before we could even go to GSA we had to go > > through Unicor (prision industries). ... > > Does anyone else see the irony here of Anna having to try and buy from the > prison system before buying from the "free enterprise system?" This along with > all the other ironies in her message! We have this incredible "machine" being > built by our Federal Government that is funded with massive amounts of tax > dollars under the guise of "reducing crime and protecting the citizenry." What > they are establishing are sweat shops with a captive labor force. Where does > this Government get off with this stuff and how long are we going to put up > with it? I read that one out of every 156 (or so) Americans are in the prison > system. This is becoming quite a large and productive work force. This seems > pretty communistic to me in that they are feeding and housing these people > while they work for little or nothing in order to supply the system with > material goods. How do our businesses compete and what will this lead to > economically? > > John Wilson > Prescott, AZ. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 16:14:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA00245 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:14:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA00849 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:13:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA17501; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:08:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:03:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA17075 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:03:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com (ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com [209.37.0.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA17071 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:03:32 -0500 (EST) From: Jim_Hartzfeld@mail.ifsia.com Received: (from uucp@localhost) by ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) id QAA18560; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:08:53 -0500 Received: from 10.1.48.6 by ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com via smap (3.2) id xma018553; Fri, 23 Jan 98 16:08:49 -0500 Received: by mail.ifsia.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 85256595.0074627F ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:11:13 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: INTERFACE To: annajc@gj.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <85256595.0073DC4D.00@mail.ifsia.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:11:07 -0500 Subject: GBlist: Paradigm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1465 Anna and list, these questions have created great dialogue. In addition to the thoughts I forwarded directly to you I must reinforce the importance of one book to my company that has been mentioned by others, Daniel Quinn's "Ishmael". When paired with Paul Hawken's "Ecology of Commerce", their dual messages have created a powerful sense of what to do (Hawken) and why (Quinn) for a petrochemically dependent industrial enterprise. It's amazing what these books can do to the blue suit corporate folk once they realize this movement is not just the latest flavor of the month. Jim Hartzfeld ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 16:29:00 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA00981 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:29:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA05488 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:27:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA18339; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:18:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA17921 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:18:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com (ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com [209.37.0.66]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA17912 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:18:00 -0500 (EST) From: Jim_Hartzfeld@mail.ifsia.com Received: (from uucp@localhost) by ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com (8.6.12/8.6.11) id QAA19909 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:23:23 -0500 Received: from 10.1.48.6 by ifsia-bh.interfaceinc.com via smap (3.2) id xma019902; Fri, 23 Jan 98 16:23:18 -0500 Received: by mail.ifsia.com(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.1 (385.6 5-6-1997)) id 85256595.0075B8D3 ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:25:50 -0500 X-Lotus-FromDomain: INTERFACE To: Greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <85256595.00748C53.00@mail.ifsia.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:25:43 -0500 Subject: GBlist: Announcing National Summit on Sustainability Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1466 I hope the list members don't mind me passing this on. This is a recent press release on what could be a very exciting event in 1999. We hope to catalize a major peice of mainstream America on the need and opportunities of creating a sustainable society. We plan to present all three legs of the sustainability stool in a balanced way: social equity, ecological development, economic development (not necessarily growth). Detroit is an exciting place to be hosting the event. Mayor Archer's approach to inclusive government has created new opportunities for Detroit that many people considered impossible. The PCSD is looking to broaden the reach of this conference by encouraging concurrent regional events and broadcasting over the net. These self organized events may be electronically connected to the host event. Working groups for the planning process are forming now. If you have interest in helping out. contact the PCSD by email. Jim Hartzfeld President's Council on Sustainable Development 730 Jackson Place, NW Washington, DC 20503 202 408 5296 fx 202 408 6839 email For Immediate Release Monday, January 12, 1998 Contact: Patricia Sinicropi, PCSD, 202.408.5296 or Sarah D. Lile, City of Detroit, 313.237.3090 President Clinton's Advisory Committee on Sustainable Development Announces Detroit as Site of 1999 National Summit Washington, DC -- The President's Council on Sustainable Development announced today plans for a national summit on sustainable development to be held May 2-5, 1999, in Detroit, Michigan. The council also announced the appointment of two of its members who will serve as conference co-chairs: Ray Anderson, Chief Executive Officer of Interface, Inc., and Carol Browner, Administrator of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. The summit will celebrate the success of current efforts and also serve as a launching point to spark a national dialogue on sustainable development. Organizers hope the summit will spur additional actions to integrate environmental, economic, and social objectives and efforts to accomplish these goals simultaneously instead of creating tradeoffs between them. Since 1993, the council has forged a consensus that is growing among leaders from business, government, and community, environmental and native American groups that sustainable development offers tremendous opportunities to increase America's prosperity and revitalize America's communities using this integrated approach. "This summit will showcase the ways in which Americans are working together to demonstrate that environmental protection and economic progress really do go hand in hand. If we can encourage more sustainable development initiatives, we can make tremendous strides toward addressing the nation's environmental and public health challenges," said Carol Browner, EPA Administrator and co- chair of the summit. The conference co-chairs will lead a national planning committee that will work with representatives of diverse constituencies to plan the event. Conference organizers will work closely with a local host committee consisting of leaders and citizens in Detroit and southeast Michigan. Appointments to both committees will be announced in February. Although Detroit will host this national event, organizers anticipate that simultaneous satellite summits will be held across the country. The selection of Detroit as the summit site is part of organizers' efforts to showcase examples of successful initiatives that have brought together communities, businesses, all levels of government, and non-profit organizations across the country to implement sustainable development locally. Mayor Dennis Archer joined with Wayne County Executive Edward McNamara to form a collaboration to tackle problems that are common to this industrialized region. This vision has been rewarded with renewed interest in Detroit and Wayne County and enthusiastic support from their citizens. In recent years, Archer and McNamara have worked together to create a joint Roundtable on Sustainable Development to redevelop brownfields and revitalize downtown by bringing business back to the inner city. "Wayne County and the city of Detroit created a sustainable development roundtable comprised of diverse stakeholder to tackle the issues that will improve the quality of life in our area," said Wayne County Executive Edward H. McNamara. "These principles of sustainable development involve more than bricks and mortar issues. They embody our spirit, reflect our values and underscore our hope for the future of our community," Both Archer and Wayne County Commissioner Edna Bell serve on the advisory board of the Joint Center on Sustainable Communities, a project of the U.S. Conference of Mayors and the National Association of Counties. The city has received federal designation as an Empowerment Zone Community by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development and as a Brownfields Pilot Community from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. "We wholeheartedly welcome the summit to Detroit," said Archer. "Over these past years we have worked to revitalize the city and prepare our community for the next millennium. We are proud and pleased that our efforts have been recognized. This will be a great summit and Detroit will be a great showcase for the implementation of sustainable development." "As we move into the next millennium, the challenges faced by all Americans to continue to make progress economically without continuing to degrade our environment or increase the number of poor people are tremendous. This summit can provide a stimulus for all of us to think more sustainably," said summit co-chair Ray Anderson, CEO of Interface, Inc., an interior furnishings systems manufacturer based in Atlanta, GA. The President's Council on Sustainable Development was created by President Clinton in 1993 to advise him on sustainable development and economic, environmental, and equity issues. The council is comprised of 30 members representing diverse leaders from business, government, and community, environmental, and native American groups co-chaired by Ray Anderson, Chief Executive Officer of the Interface Company, and Jonathan Lash, President of the World Resources Institute. -- END -- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 16:53:06 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA01308 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:53:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA12710 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:51:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA20134; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:46:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:41:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA19759 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:41:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19751 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:41:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from adder.ampsc.com (adder.ampsc.com [207.102.161.119]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA02800; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:50:01 -0800 Message-ID: <34C90F8C.4E99@ampsc.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:46:09 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tom Berthold CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: GBlist: off-topic on OFF-TOPIC References: <19980123055105843.AAA365@[206.115.104.91]> <34C85A1C.58762A5E@primenet.com> <34C901DA.71B1@radiks.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1467 Tom Berthold wrote: > > John, > I for one have little sympathy for those elements of society who commit > serious crimes and find themselves in prison. I have no problem putting > true offenders to work. I am not responding to the 'Procruement Adventure' aspect of the thread, only that the legal and enforcement systems in place in the USA and Canada, are not able to determine what took place in a large number of the criminal court files which proceed as far as Court and beyond. The result? there are many innocent and victimized individuals who are falsely accused, wrongfully prosecuted and unlawfully imprisoned. The day will come when you may be called upon to participate, willingly or not, you have obligation to provide an accurate reporting, not sway with emotion and guilty or innocent focus. Focus on what happened! Once you are 100% sure of what happened, then the application of the law, the decision of guilt or innocence, is EASY! Sorry for being off-topic on this OFF-TOPIC, but the trendy attitude is to continue with the abuses, not focus on becoming part of the solution. Richard. -- R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 17:46:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA02282 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:46:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA27512 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:45:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22383; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:39:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:34:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA21863 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:34:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21854 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:34:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.19] (mke-1-3.binc.net [208.142.229.19]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA21981; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:39:24 -0600 Message-Id: <199801232239.QAA21981@glacier.binc.net> Subject: GBlist: re: London sights. Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 11:40:28 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "Gregory Thomas" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1468 Greg, To add to Bion's excellent list; for fun check out the new Globe Theater. Timber framed, wattle and daub infill, thatched roof- and meets London's strict fire and safety codes. Peter McCurdy et al built it. Now open to the public. Right off the Thames East (south) bank, roughly across the river from from St Paul's, Black(burne?) tube. Address is listed as "Bankside, Southwark". Well worth the time. Chris Koehn ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 17:46:44 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA02287 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:46:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA27528 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:45:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22387; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:39:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:35:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA21881 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:34:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA21875 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:34:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.19] (mke-1-3.binc.net [208.142.229.19]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA22006; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:39:28 -0600 Message-Id: <199801232239.QAA22006@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 11:40:32 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "F Unger" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1469 Well said, Fred. Additionally, as I've written before- Isn't labor a resource? Why are some folks intent on making and re-making their own shelter their life's focus? Isn't there more to life? Call me an elitist, but I think the argument for durable, adaptable housing is extremely valid. And "green". Chris Koehn ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 18:31:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA02776 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:31:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA10060 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:29:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA25984; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:24:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:19:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA24805 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:18:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from owlnet.rice.edu (owlnet.rice.edu [128.42.49.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA24778 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:18:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from great-horned.owlnet.rice.edu (great-horned.owlnet.rice.edu [128.42.49.4]) by owlnet.rice.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA27271 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:24:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (khffman@localhost) by great-horned.owlnet.rice.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA27075 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:24:04 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: great-horned.owlnet.rice.edu: khffman owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:24:03 -0600 (CST) From: Keith Hoffman To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Entering the land of green-building In-Reply-To: <199801231708.MAA02228@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1470 Dear Green-b's- Another lurker: Anybody out there have any suggestions for how to turn an interest in sustainability and greenbuilding into a career path? Obviously, it depends somewhat on which path you wish to pusue, but let's assume an interest in designing and building single family residences. Where do you start? If you have an archi. degree? If you don't? If location is relevant, think NW. A disillusioned biological science technician, Keith Hoffman khffman@owlnet.rice.edu ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 18:33:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA02947 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:33:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA10787 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:32:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA26384; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:26:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:21:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA25313 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:21:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from cerberus.nga.com (root@nga.com [198.68.22.250]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA25275 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from nga.nga.com (nga [192.168.1.10]) by cerberus.nga.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA04927; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:26:10 -0800 Received: by nga.nga.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09653; Fri, 23 Jan 98 15:26:12 PST Date: Fri, 23 Jan 98 15:26:12 PST From: jim@nga.com (Jim Roy) Message-Id: <9801232326.AA09653@nga.nga.com> To: FUnger@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, crkoehn@mailbag.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1471 > From: Chris & Ruth Koehn > > Well said, Fred. > > Additionally, as I've written before- Isn't labor a resource? Why are > some folks intent on making and re-making their own shelter their life's > focus? Isn't there more to life? > > Call me an elitist, but I think the argument for durable, adaptable > housing is extremely valid. And "green". I detect the implication here that straw bale, thatch, and such like "mulchy" building techniques produce short lived structures. I don't believe this is true - is it? Don't thatch roofs last for decades? I don't know that I'v heard actual numbers for straw bale houses, but folks seem to think they will last as long as "normal" ones. Life span's must not be too bad, which means that we are using our smarts to squeeze greater utility out of a natural product than nature does ( maybe ). That is, taking straw, which cycles thru the system in a year, and using it for many years. Contrast that with cutting down a 300 year old fir. First of all, a lot of that wood passes quickly from sawdust to paper to compost. More goes up in smoke at the harvest sight. What's left spends... what... 100 yr. as your basic starter castle unless it gets whacked by the next new freeway. Left alone, the tree would stand for another couple hundered years then still be home to a multitude of creatures for at least that much longer before melting into the forest floor completely. Yes labor is a resource, but lets not get blinded by economic rhetoric as to what Green really means. Jim Roy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 18:52:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA03513 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:52:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA16358 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:51:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA28293; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:41:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA27900 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:41:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27895 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:41:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA26549 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:46:49 -0500 Message-id: <2003921@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 23 Jan 98 18:52:36 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1472 --- You wrote: Additionally, as I've written before- Isn't labor a resource? Why are some folks intent on making and re-making their own shelter their life's focus? Isn't there more to life? Call me an elitist, but I think the argument for durable, adaptable housing is extremely valid. And "green". --- end of quoted material --- I think labor has become too expensive in developed countries relative to material resources, so we use products that are fast and cheap instead of using craft. I also question the implication that I think I am hearing - that buildings which are made of biodegradable materials will necessarily have a shorter service life than "modern" buildings. I am guessing that there may be more opportunities to screw up in the biodegradable building, but that properly done, they should last as long as any. Usually that means good foundation and generous roof, a wise combo for any building! I saw Taos Pueblo this early fall, and I'm told it is the oldest continuously occupied building in North America. Without maintenance, it will return to the earth from which it was built. But then again, so will mine, and Chris', and Fred's. They may just leave a little pile of not-so-biodegradable substances at the bottom of the compost. I'm no straw bale apologist - on my own little addition I was going to play with bales - at 8' x 12' I could afford a labor intensive technique. But I was careless and it rained like hell here in early summer 1996, they got damp, and moldy. I built my trusty double stud wall instead, sheathed it with pine boards, clad it with wood shingles, hung gyp on the inside and had it blown solid with cellulose. All these components are in some way products of the industrial economy, yet they will all biodegrade as elegantly as the straw bale wall (though I used poly on the inside and housewrap on the boards - sigh.) Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 18:57:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA03562 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:57:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA17688 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:56:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA28758; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:46:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA28332 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:46:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA28328 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:46:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA26789 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:51:50 -0500 Message-id: <2003968@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 23 Jan 98 18:57:38 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1473 --- You wrote: Don't thatch roofs last for decades? --- end of quoted material --- We had a great presentation on thatch at NESEA couple of years back by a thatcher from Ireland. My recollection was that they need re-thatching every 15-20 years or so. The real grabber was that he was getting something over $1000/square (anyone remeber the exact numbers here? - John Abrams?) Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 19:06:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA03642 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:06:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA20253 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:05:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA29661; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:00:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:55:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29102 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:55:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin51.mx.aol.com (mrin51.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.161]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29097 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:55:34 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin51.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id TAA16941; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:00:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:00:27 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980123190026_54151712@mrin51.mx> To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@valley.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Conversation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1474 Thanks Marc, I agree. I've been noticing more name-calling lately too. Ecch. To follow on your idea of diversity, I've always felt all of us doing sustainable design and construction could easily (and without rancor) have our own "ecological niches" so to speak, to which we're all particulary adapted--by experience, training, inclination, whatever. And all of us in those niches can support each other. That's one of the main ideas behind the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild. With my own history & background (11 years in NYC designing high-end residential & commercial interiors before I saw the light..;-), my niche here in Seattle is becoming the design of (more modest than NYC yet) high-quality places that relatively ordinary people (like me) can aspire to live and work in for a very long time. That tends to be durable, energy- and resource- conserving, healthier renovation, and some new construction, within the city limits, based in the stick-built tradition (updated to include advanced framing). So my particular niche probably falls closer to Fred Unger's than that of, say, my friends Will and Jenny Pell of Nesting Bird Yurt Company, or my old boss Chris Stafford, who is specializing in straw bale construction. Those are the niches they have made for themselves, based on deeply held personal values. You've got to respect that. And they do it really well, because they're passionate about it. So if someone came to me wanting a yurt, I'd refer them to Will & Jenny, a straw bale house-I'd send them to Chris. There's room for everyone on the sustainable bus! Rob Harrison Seattle Editor, _EcoBuilding Times_ *** Robert Harrison Architects http://members.aol.com/rhdesign --lyrical sustainable design-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 19:24:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA03761 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:24:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA25099 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:23:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00355; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:17:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:13:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA00088 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:13:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA00084 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:13:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from adder.ampsc.com (adder.ampsc.com [207.102.161.119]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA07655; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:22:25 -0800 Message-ID: <34C93352.14FB@ampsc.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:18:26 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Hoffman CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Entering the land of green-building References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1475 Keith Hoffman wrote: > > Dear Green-b's- > > Another lurker: > > Anybody out there have any suggestions for how to turn an interest in > sustainability and greenbuilding into a career path? Obviously, it > depends somewhat on which path you wish to pusue, but let's assume an > interest in designing and building single family residences. Where do you > start? If you have an archi. degree? If you don't? If location > is relevant, think NW. > > A disillusioned biological science technician, > > Keith Hoffman > khffman@owlnet.rice.edu > Hello Keith, disillusionment is increasingly common these days[g], don't despair......I an interested in your biological expertise and suggest, without any other information about you available at present, that you consider a career in environment, occupation health & safety, and in that train of thought, I suggest you visit http://www.baqa.org and http://www.wcb.bc.ca:80/new/courses.htm you may find, as I did, that experiencing disillusionment is the impetus to re-focus your awareness and priorities, which in turn help you realize that you have an awareness and willingness to act, that most don't have, and find your career satisfaction in an area of occupational health and safety. This is not to suggest that you become a safety professional, but if it is appropriate, great......you have to make up your mind on which paths to take in life. I think that, in my case, pursuing certifications in OH&S is well warranted, and recommended, I am presently trying to obtain training and certification in IAQ/BAQ Management, what I perceive to be an emerging specialized field of inspection, identification, assessment and direction of remediation activities in all occupancies, not just workplace based. If you want to share your thoughts with me, I welcome them. I am interested in the biological contaminations that are the source of SBS and BRI problems. Thank you. Richard Moore. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 20:31:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA04954 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:31:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA13071 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:30:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03186; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:24:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:20:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA02808 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:20:37 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801240120.UAA02808@solstice.crest.org> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:32:41 -0800 From: Arjay To: list@oxytherapy.com, jroussea@cmhc-schl.gc.ca, koz@alaska.net, Angela_Izzotti.HWC@inet.hwc.ca, bdhoward@ix.netcom.com, cmhc035@inforamp.net, chamber@gvcc.org, dhill@cmhc-schl.gc.ca, GreenBuilding Listserver , hs-canada@kate.ccohs.ca CC: behrman@gate.net, ask@expert-market.com, biosac@panther.Gsu.EDU, Permacltur@aol.com, coronair@netidea.com Subject: GBlist: Help! IAQ/BAQ ManagementTraining and Certification! Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1476 Hello everyone, please don't take this as an intrusion, I am in need of your help..... Can you help or direct me on how and where I can obtain training and certification in Indoor Air Quality and/or Building Air Quality Management? I am trying to obtain training and certification in Indoor Air Quality and/or Building Air Quality Managment, and the opportunities appear, so far, to be rare and quite limited. help? Thank you. Richard Moore. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 21:09:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA05310 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:09:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA24418 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:07:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA04605; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:02:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:58:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA04339 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:58:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA04335 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:58:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA20556; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:03:24 -0800 Message-ID: <34C94AF8.30DDDBB@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:59:20 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John R. Abrams" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco-industrial Park References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1477 Bamberton was an eco-community project being developed on Vancouver Island. The history of the development of this project would be a good lesson/study for anyone interested in green development as it was an example of fairly well conceived green development concepts being compromised by the economics of scale or perhaps simply by some of the contradictions inherent in larger project development. In any event the project draft included some extensive work on an eco-industrial park as part of an overall residential development. Guy Dauncey of Victoria B.C. was a publicist for the project and could possibly direct you to relevant information. gdauncey@islandnet.com John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. John R. Abrams wrote: > The town of Londonderry NH and Stonyfield Farm Yogurt Co. are collaborating > to create an Eco-Industrial park on 100 acres in Londonderry. They have > been thinking about this for several years and are ready to move forward - > they have staff, funding, and committed developers. Walt Cudnohufsky and I > have been hired to facilitate a one day planning session with 60 -70 people > from a variety of disciplines and interest groups, on Feb 5. > > Does anyone know of any other Eco-Industrial Parks operating or in planning > stages, and, if so, anyone involved I could talk to (I'll define > Eco-Industrial Park, for the purposes of this query, as: just what it > sounds like). > > Thanks in advance for any assistance you can give. > > John Abrams > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 21:31:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06065 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:31:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA00992 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:29:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05853; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:24:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:20:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05522 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:20:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05518 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:20:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA20919; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:25:26 -0800 Message-ID: <34C95022.946CB31E@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:21:22 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #24 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1478 John Straube wrote: > > > The coporation does not have to change it sethos and is allowed to > continue to make the best product for the most profit -- the resulting > product will now be more environmental, not because the tychoon feels > good, but because the prices generated by a envrio-concious public have > told him how to act. > The bulk of this post talked about various production costs that might influence end consumer cost. Its a general rule that production cost plays little role in consumer cost. The consumer generally pays the price that will afford the most profit for the manufacturer. Its the corporations ethos to capitalize on the difference between end product cost and all other costs (maximize profit for the shareholder is the only rule, I repeat). Generally the cost of marketing (advertising, etc.) far exceed or play a significant role in the cost of production of most consumer goods. I venture to say that this cost is one that the world can ill afford to continue paying as it represents considerable inequity and resource loss at the paying end, something to the effect of extracting gain with no investment - something that I imagine defies some law of physics if natural law could be applied. To say that the price is generated by a public is closer to the truth but I question both the consciousness and the ability for consciousness on the part of the public because of the sophistication of the economic process involved. A process that underlies the fact that they will be charged not a $ less than they can afford and if debt servicing is any clue probably a $ more. Sorry for the belated post. The mail traffic is heavy and time seems to be spent absorbing rather than responding. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 21:33:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06110 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:33:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA01657 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:32:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06037; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:26:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:22:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05667 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:22:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.167]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05663 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:22:36 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO Message-ID: <50cb564c.34c950f5@aol.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:24:43 EST To: rjmoore@ampsc.com, list@oxytherapy.com, jroussea@cmhc-schl.gc.ca, koz@alaska.net, Angela_Izzotti.HWC@inet.hwc.ca, bdhoward@ix.netcom.com, cmhc035@inforamp.net, chamber@gvcc.org, dhill@cmhc-schl.gc.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org, hs-canada@kate.ccohs.ca Cc: behrman@gate.net, ask@expert-market.com, biosac@panther.Gsu.EDU, Permacltur@aol.com, coronair@netidea.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Help! IAQ/BAQ ManagementTraining and Certification! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1479 Two possibilities I'm aware of: 1. Association of Energy Engineers (I think they're in Atlanta). I believe they have an IAQ training and certification program. 2. American Conference of Government Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH). I have a friend who took their IAQ certification exam. You may have to be a member, I'm not sure. If you don't find either easily, let me know - I've got their addresses at work. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 21:50:13 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA06316 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:50:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA06527 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:48:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06941; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:43:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:39:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA06510 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:39:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06496 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:39:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA21290; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:43:59 -0800 Message-ID: <34C9547B.62DC4E99@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:39:55 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: re: Economics and Environment (A RANT) References: <199801162111.QAA11332@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1480 Robert W. Tom wrote: > Hello Economists and Ecologists; > > To further fan the flames of this debate... > > If it were realistic to expect that Commerce would truly embrace > Sustainability, you'd think that in the interests of long-term > self-preservation, sustainable practices would first become > evident in the Resource sector. > > Is it any coincidence that the Maytag RepairGuy of the GB list > (BCJohnS ), the seemingly lone voice expressing scepticism ... > lives in an area whose traditional industries are resource-based > ...and who (I presume) sees first-hand on a daily basis, the > effects of Enlightened Forestry, Fishing and Mining practices in > the '90's ? > As a continuing lone voice (though Mr. Foley's comments were dearly appreciated) - in the wilderness (provincial voice?) or perhaps more culturally relavent "the Maytag guy". I would admit that I do witness some atrocities that might influence my opinion and being a sensitive sort of person some of these atrocities might even seem to affect my opinion (placing it outside the seemingly rational). Current news from the front suggests that a major forestry giant MB will further distance itself from resource extraction in my part of the world. This isn't really news as all excessive profits from uncontrolled atrocities have for the last decade been quietly redirected to less restrictive climes. I venture to say that the increasingly eco-concious public will no doubt thwart their indirect efforts at climate change soon, perhaps the next century or so. In the meantime some lovely British Columbia property given to the corporations for free as exchange for anticipated long term jobs and stumpage fees will soon be up for sale at excessive prices for eco-development as retirement zones for the franchised or indirect stockholders in such economic affairs. I will (more rationally speaking) be able to serve you in all your eco-housing needs with a freshened land base suitable for pasture. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 23 22:18:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA06575 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:18:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA14079 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:17:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA07859; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:11:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:07:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07542 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:07:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07538 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:07:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-23.topher.net [208.199.183.229]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA06177 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:04:37 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801240304.VAA06177@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: "greenbuilder" Subject: GBlist: Facilities Managers Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:09:41 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1481 Anna wrote . . . . I believe a facilty manager who understandes the concept of sustainability, can make better long term decisions about minor maintenance. Perhaps it is because they are able to see a wider range of solution alternatives to any given problem as well as see a building more as an interconnected system then individual parts which need repair. But how do you get facility managers to experience 'the shift'? I'll be happy to summarize the responses I get and repost to the list. Anna ************** I can respond with some experience in a couple of areas. By day, I am a Facilities Manager for a very large semiconductor manufacturing plant in Dallas. By night and weekend I am a solar energy and energy efficiency junkie. I designed my own house which won the NAHB Energy Value Housing Award in 1996 (and yes I do see the irony in winning an energy award from the NAHB - they were just in town for their annual convention and not a single person requested a tour of the house). You can check my house at . I recognize all the things you are talking about. On my house I had total control over the situation because I was paying for it. At work, money matters most. We made a nice profit last year, but not enough, so I have to lay off some people Monday to meet a targeted budget cut. It makes it really tough to think about energy when you are making decisions about people's employment. Our budget goes down every year. We are turned down for any energy improvement that has more than a 1 year payback! As you found out from your recycled panel ordering experience, it takes a great deal of your own energy to battle the inertia of the wheels in a big place. I am very concerned that corporate America continues to focus more and more on the VERY short term bottom line. Dilbert is a Documentary! There is some hope. We are doing some good things at our company that have evolved over the years. We have an excellent recycling and waste reduction program. We have some energy programs that were put in place many years ago that provide some savings. Those programs came about because someone was there for a while and had a vision and stuck with it long enough to overcome the inertia. With more turn-over and less stability, it's become less common for people to be anywhere long term, much less think long term. I was able to get an energy audit of the plant this year and we will try our best to implement some improvements next year. I have toured over 400 people through my house in the past year - many of them from my company to try and show them the possibilities. The primary questions are centered around "what did it cost" and "how much do you really save?" We are right back to that money thing. As much as I would like to snap my fingers and change the world, I realize that I have to work within the system - I am part of the system. I really haven't answered your question about "the shift." I came preprogrammed with an efficiency bias. Ever since I was young I did not like wasting anything. I became interested in solar energy in High School. As for my peers in similar jobs, they are shifting their housing thoughts based on seeing my home. If I can show them a facilities plant that is doing what my home does, I might see more of a shift at work. The old addage "Seeing is Believing" still seems to carry a powerful punch. If I'm still at the company after Monday I'll keep pressing forward. If not - I'm going to have to start charging for my house tours! Paul ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 00:12:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA08826 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:12:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA18293 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:11:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA11901; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:05:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:01:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA11578 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:01:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA11573 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:01:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sc15.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.208]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id AAA11383 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:07:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34C975F3.51EF@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:02:43 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #24 References: <34C95022.946CB31E@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1482 John Salmen wrote: > To say that the price is generated by a public is closer to the truth but I > question both the consciousness and the ability for consciousness on the part of > the public because of the sophistication of the economic process involved. A > process that underlies the fact that they will be charged not a $ less than they > can afford and if debt servicing is any clue probably a $ more. > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ I seem to end my reading of so many of these evil economics posts with the invariable feeling that the rest of the message got cut off. I'm left with this void, thinking that the "Therefore........., or "The alternative would be........, or "Clearly, we can change the paradigm by...........portion was lost. I don't understand what is being proposed as the solution to this horrid system or what alternate system is going to replace it. Don't miss understand me, I'm not the free market apologist that I might seem. I simply am not convinced that regulation, legislation and governmental oversight are in any way preferable. If there is some other dynamic force at work here, then lets identify it. I would love to see the future of the planet being cared for by some enlightened and beneficent power but I think it's beyond my faith. I believe we are here, now, with only our own best efforts to depend on. If we don't work within the market that exists, what do we replace it with and how do we accomplish that? If not from within, then where from? I hope this is not read as argumentative and negative, I'm not casting aspersions at anyone. I would quite frankly, like to get this thread on a more productive track, it is the essential question that needs be answered. Without some clear and defined agenda, this will end up being just so much more useless rhetoric and of no use at all in the long run. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 00:26:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA08913 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:26:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA21662 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:25:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA12916; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:19:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:15:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA12574 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:15:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA12570 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:15:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA24053; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:20:42 -0800 Message-ID: <34C97936.7709148@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:16:38 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #24 References: <34C95022.946CB31E@cow-net.com> <34C975F3.51EF@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1483 Chuck Hinckley wrote: > John Salmen wrote: > > > To say that the price is generated by a public is closer to the truth but I > > question both the consciousness and the ability for consciousness on the part of > > the public because of the sophistication of the economic process involved. A > > process that underlies the fact that they will be charged not a $ less than they > > can afford and if debt servicing is any clue probably a $ more. > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > I seem to end my reading of so many of these evil economics posts with > the invariable feeling that the rest of the message got cut off. I'm > left with this void, thinking that the "Therefore........., or "The > alternative would be........, or "Clearly, we can change the paradigm > by...........portion was lost. I don't understand what is being proposed > as the solution to this horrid system or what alternate system is going > to replace it. The first part of the process, as it has been for so long is to balance some of the more mystical aspects of free market rhetoric. I'm not proposing a solution but it would be nice if there was some more critical understanding of the problem rather than some unproductive willingness to simply go with the flow and expect some solution to derive from a flawed process. Its a question of a willingness to address inequity directly whether it be environmental or social. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 00:49:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA09082 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:49:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA26209 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA13548; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:42:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:38:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA13284 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:38:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA13280 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:38:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA24428; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:43:31 -0800 Message-ID: <34C97E8E.14ED433@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 21:39:27 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: F Unger CC: dmelchert@earthlink.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: economics and environment References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1484 F Unger wrote: > re: The laundry detergent charrette: > > Seth, > > There is an unstated presumption in the outline of your charrette of an evil > conspiracy by the detergent industry to get us all to use way too much > unnecessary product. I'd be very surprised if this were the case. It would be correct to say that you could from this charrette conclude that excessive use of this material was part of the manufacturers intention, or that the manufacturer did not have the knowledge that less product use would produce the same results. There is nothing to say that evil was the intent unless you fear that some of the basic operating principles of commerce are evil. Which part were you surprised about? The manufacturers intent? The manufacturers lack of knowledge? > but as we > know from the oil industry and are seeing in the tobacco trials, once free > markets are compromised by monopoly practice, Isn't one of the basic rules of the free market to maximize gain. And the basic historical tool to achieve this is monopoly. The notion of compromise is a contradiction.One can make a reasonable assumption as a dependent in the marketplace for basic goods that a product marketed to make us clean will in priority A) make a profit first for the manufacturer and B) may make us clean. As a consumer we could make a distinction and say that a product leaves us dirty or makes us overly clean but as you point out in wanting to consume another study that we are outside of an historical cultural set of experiences that gives us the knowledge base to make that distinction. Again as David Foley suggested culture is experienced as an artifact of the marketplace. > all sorts of things are > possible. Personally, I'd want to see more than one study before I jump to > such conclusions, but I will experiment with less detergent in the next load > of laundry this weekend. There is a logic in the balance of your post that suggests that manufacturers of cleaning products will reduce the volume of their product and recent trends show a 'concentrated formula' approach in product design and marketing in North America. I have to ask the question as to whether this constitutes success? If so I have to ask why? It doesn't address the problem of synthetic production of surfactants (one of the fastest growing industries in N.A.) because it doesn't address the effective usage of surfactants as a substance or their potential harm. It simply increases the economic potential for the marketing, distribution and increased sales of such material because the production, packaging and transportation costs have dropped. > Alas, there is a legitimate role for government in my simple world. I might > even propose that the government break up every company that grows to more > than about a hundred or two hundred employees. Sure, that's kind of arbitrary, > but government can set the rules of the game to match whatever we value as a > society. Personally I think it's a fairer, more interesting and more creative > game with lots of small players. Two hundred employees should be more than > enough to generate all the excitement and profit any reasonable person could > wish for. Within current economic conditions (say the last hundred years) small companies actually have the potential for doing more damage and far less good by their employees than larger companies. The process is called cutting corners and escaping control or review/censure by virtue of size. I live in a supposedly untouched area that is contaminated with the residue of a hundreds of small mills operating for the last hundred years, ironically few of those companies ever made a profit and it wasn't until the larger forest companies evolved that effective waste management strategies even began to be implemented (by gov't) much less enforced. The advent of 'fill the gap' programs such as 'community forestry' (as the larger companies leave to exploit less restricted resources) has essentially resulted in a flood of small companies extracting as much profit as they can (however small) by not being liable for waste, or proper care and payment of workers. There may be excitement and profit in such a scenario for some and we certainly have a mythical heritage that encourages such get out there and do it stuff, but I cannot see the long term societal or environmental gain in such libertarian views. > Why am I such a nut on these foolish ideals of liberty, freedom and > enterprise? I got a degree in environmental studies and thought about being a > government regulator or one of those clean up guys that charges folks a > fortune to take polluted dirt out of one hole and move it to another hole. But > those careers seemed really futile and boring. So I spent several years > working for nonprofit government funded community action agencies doing energy > conservation and other good work for low income folks, but the inefficiency > and rampant corruption were disheartening. I tried the academic scene for > about a year but found the pace such that I constantly had to check my pulse > to make sure I was still alive. I was active in the protest scene for many > years and just burned out because the constant negativism had me involved in > so many problems but no solutions. When I was twenty three, I even tried > standing in front of factory gates handing out "For The People", a local > communist party newspaper. That lasted until I slowed down long enough to > actually think about what I was reading in the foolish things. Eventually I > decided that the most radical, progressive, creative and environmentally > friendly work I could do would be growing food or building houses (or making > detergent) in a positive way. Then it was simply a matter of finding something > fun to do. > I commiserate to a point because my personal experiences are very similar. I have a degree that was funded by building work, I worked in community economic development and was active in a very radical fringe of cultural critique. My decision to return to a 'building practice' was a very deliberate response to those experiences and the frustration of not actively 'doing' in a area that I felt was important. For me those experiences were formative. I have talked with people that were in the first garment industry strike in NY in the early part of the century . I have learned what the development of a union of workers interests over economic interests means, and how repressive a bureaucracy can be to those that 'don't have'. And I do think that our current notions of economic practice threaten our well-being, and historically always have. The difference is that historically they have rarely been looked to for salvation or any substantial benefit. I have experienced many times the limitations and contradictions of my own 'limited' economic practice - and found it wanting. I am not writing to pontificate or belabor but my experiences are still joined with those that have far less cultural or economic mobility than I have and I feel bound to represent those interests. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 00:57:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA09130 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA27689 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:55:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA14078; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:50:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:46:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA13622 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:46:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13616 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:45:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip74.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.74]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA12303 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:51:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980124055420.006ceb5c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:54:20 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: GBlist: The Thread Developes Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1485 Re: GBlist: SOUNDPROOF WINDOWS, Fixing Shabby (new construction) envelopes,econ101: The Thread Develops - bit late SOUNDPROOF WINDOWS - Several 100 homes surrounding the Islip, NY (Long Island) Airport were SOUNDPROOFED in 1995. I have no data on the soundproofing results, but there has been nothing in the local media saying that it did not work. I do know that there was no tie-in with energy issues, since we tried to bid on it. Windows were replaced with triple pane & exteriors re-cladded with a deadening material - no dense-packed cellulose, no pressure testing, no IR scanning - it's a case of what used to be called 'lost opportunities' by the ESCO's. You went into measure the setpoint on the DWH , but didn't install a wrap on the hot water tank or the utility rep measured the attic, but never got figures to do the btus/sf/hdd for the rest of the house . Fixing Shabby (new construction) envelopes - Fred Lugano did hit a nail on the head & you all should look a his site - the home/building-performance industry and its contractors/trades has come a long way in the past 2 years. ECON 101 - replaced by now with Commercial Retrofit, PARADIGM, Conversation and/or Mail OverLoad - we seem to know that the integration of systems is the most important thing we can do with structures. The LI baymen are proposing to modify the haul-seine net to only kill 12% of the unmarketable striped bass catch & while it seems beneficial when compared to their numbers of the sport fishery kill - is that the best we can do with new construction when there are untold houses - infiltrating, ice-damning or back-drafting. (12% is also the number used for the energy-use increase by US housing stock since Stockholm). I always liked the answer from the building scientist, when asked what was the preferred cavity insulation - 'maybe, they shouldn't put any in, it just gets in the way of what we are trying to do now'. Anyway - best to you all & keep up the good work best for the new year ---- -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 00:57:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA09135 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA27709 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:55:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA14084; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:50:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:46:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA13633 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:46:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA13629 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:46:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from greentree (ip74.islip4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.12.250.74]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA17025; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:51:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980124055424.006bfc8c@pop.mindspring.com> X-Sender: doughf@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 00:54:24 -0500 To: Chris & Ruth Koehn , "Gregory Thomas" , "GB List" From: Frazer Dougherty Subject: Re: GBlist: re: London sights. Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1486 Be nice to know what the btus/sf/hdd are for >the new Globe Theater. >Timber framed, wattle and daub infill, thatched roof- and meets London's >strict fire and safety codes. I assume they are the original btus ... best for the new year ---- -------------------------------------------------------- Frazer Dougherty doughf@mindspring.com North Fork Retrofit doughf@aol.com (fallback) website: http://www.home-performance.org -------------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 01:13:06 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA09277 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 01:13:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA01293 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 01:11:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA14643; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 01:06:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 01:02:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA14384 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 01:02:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA14380 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 01:02:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA24830; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:07:32 -0800 Message-ID: <34C9842F.6E16F622@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:03:28 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: malcolm.scott@which.net CC: Greenbuilding List Subject: Re: GBlist: Demand Radiant Floor Heat References: <199801161818.NAA19929@amsterdam.interport.net> <34C09717.703CD69C@which.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1487 malcolm.scott@which.net wrote: > I must confess I am not convinced by high thermal mass for fueled > heating systems. Solar is a different case of course. > Malcolm Scott > I actually never considered the energy cost significance of slow response within a fueled system though I have always coupled radiant applications with a large amount of exterior mass to help moderate extreme swings and therefore compensate for setback. I've done this without any real calculation but rather as haphazard (it seemed like a good idea) compensation for our climate (there is never time to figure everything out - kind of thing). Has anyone modelled the significance of overheating with radiant applications? John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 01:53:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA09658 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 01:53:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA08638 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 01:52:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA16002; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 01:46:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 01:42:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA15782 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 01:42:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA15778 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 01:42:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA25770; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:47:39 -0800 Message-ID: <34C98D95.4C01A5C@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 22:43:33 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: NMBlues CC: JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #24 References: <3116755e.34c0fd7f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1488 NMBlues wrote: > In a message dated 98-01-16 15:50:46 EST, you write: > > << Becasue labour is not taxed for its environmental damage, > labour becomes effectively cheaper, which has some social beenfits (more > employment). >> > > I like this idea---I would love to see some discussion of this one item alone. The problem here is that in most third world countries (where the bulk of consumerables and disposable commodities are produced) and increasingly in first world countries (such as Canada and some midwestern states) labour is already at or below poverty levels which is a level that cannot safely sustain life, something similar to the endangered species category within environmental protection theory. The effect of producing more employment at this level is equivalent to spreading a toxic sludge over a greater unaffected area hoping to dilute its consequences. I once was hired to teach what was then termed S.E.D.'s (severely employment disadvantaged) by our government. The concept was to develop enough skills to gain minimal employment. Rather I focused on developing skills to analyze needs. One fellow wanted to be employed desperately despite the fact that (or perhaps because of) he, his partner and his children all had serious medical disabilities. What he discovered in the course of the program was that in order to cover all his families needs that were currently covered through various social programs (some of which he would become ineligible for once employed) he would have to earn approx. $25/hour. The most he could expect at that time was $10-12 (at this point it would probably be $8-10 - 8 years later). He did in the end find a focus for his energy but it was not in ungainfull employment rather it was as a worker at an anti-poverty advocacy organization (that also helped provide him with some necessary services). Would he have benefited from the further cheapening of labour - labour that is already at such a low rate that it would not benefit from any reduction in taxation. Would you have your labour cheapened to increase the potential for greater equity. Corporations have largely escaped taxation since the early seventies because it was felt that less taxation would result in more jobs and a larger general public tax base that would compensate for lower tax revenues. Since the early seventies we have experienced an erosion of social programs, an increase in general poverty, a dramatic increase in child poverty, and a widening of income gap. You will have to provide a more convincing argument for the potential social or soulful benefits of a further cheapened labour base in our world. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 02:17:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA09900 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:17:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA13503 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:16:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA16958; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:11:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:06:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA16614 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:06:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA16610 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:06:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA26231; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:11:46 -0800 Message-ID: <34C9933C.884EA59@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:07:40 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pbsustain CC: kwright@smtp-rockville.dynamac.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Economics vs. Environment References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1489 Pbsustain wrote: > I I think it's interesting that the > title of this discussion started out as Economy vs. Environment which I > suggest is old hat. We are quickly learning there is no choice but to work > with the environment to even have an economy. The problem may well be, we > don't have enough time, enough awareness or enough infrastructure to make > changes but that doesn't mean we give up but may mean it needs to get a little > louder. > I quite liked this comment (finally getting a chance to read all this mail) thought I would repost this snip as a way of increasing its volume. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 02:28:13 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA09994 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:28:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA15915 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:26:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA17312; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:21:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:17:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA17057 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:17:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA17053 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:17:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA26416; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:22:32 -0800 Message-ID: <34C995C2.8CC53192@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:18:26 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Active Solar Thermal Storage Matrices References: <1955776@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1490 Hi Marc, I've been meaning to ask you to elaborate on this. You mention the work of Norman Saunders and also mention confirming some of his design work. I am not that familiar with Saunders work but have been under the impression that there are houses of his that are functioning as independently passive systems. Can you elaborate or provide some more background. Thanks John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > --- You wrote: > Go Passive! > --- end of quoted material --- > It's not possible to get close to a zero energy home in the north country > without having some mass that is independently charged (ie, not through south > glass) and driven up to a temperature considerably higher than space > temperature. Without a reliable daily solar pulse, such as is experienced in > much of the southwest, thermal mass cools off in a day or two, leaving you to > rely on backup heat when you get a week of clouds. > > You only have three things to work with - heat loss rate, amount of solar gain, > and amount of storage. Amount of storage can be increased either by adding > mass or by cycling the mass through larger temperature swings. In passive > homes, the mass is usually coupled in some way to the glass, so it is not > well-insulated from heat loss over time (such as mass walls, direct gain, or > sunspaces with mass separating the sunspace from the living space.) As you add > glass in a passive home, you must add mass that is well-coupled to the solar > gain, or you will get overheating. Diminishing returns set in quickly, as it > becomes difficult to add glass with enough well-coupled mass. > > Experience in the north country with homes that are close to 100% solar heated > shows that to achieve this in a typically sized home (say about 2000 ft2) one > needs about 700 ft2 of solar collection aperture. Witness the work of Norman > Saunders and Bob Multer. The house I desinged in 1993 (in Fine Homebuilding, > issue #104) is in an 8000+ DD climate. It has one of the best envelopes I know > of - R-40+ walls, R-60 roof, windows ranging from R-6 to R-9, ELA of 4.8 in2. > My very careful modeling confirmed Saunders' designs in that it looked as > though 100% solar required 700+ ft2 of solar aperture. We didn't go that far, > put 360 ft2 of active collector on the roof and 1200 gallons of water storage > in the basement. Three years (2 of which have had below average solar gains) > show an average of about 1750 kWh/year for all heating and hot water - this is > metered data, directly into the back-up heating element (5 kW). This is equal > to about 40-50 gallons of oil annually. And this is with internal gains of > about 300 kWh per month from all other users (too high!) > > I may be wrong, but I haven't seen any passive homes in northern climates that > use as little energy as the best active homes. So educate me! > > Marc Rosenbaum > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 02:52:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA10172 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:52:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA19787 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:50:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA18014; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:45:17 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:41:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA17688 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:41:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA17682 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:41:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA26941; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:46:22 -0800 Message-ID: <34C99B59.D39D73D6@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:42:17 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, dmfoley@acadia.net Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: econ101 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1491 John Straube wrote: > > > > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 23:24:40 -0400 > > From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) > > Subject: GBlist: econ 101 > > downsizing and working the remaining employees harder. The theory of > > markets assumes that the players have clost to "perfect" information, and > > with this information, they can be relied upon to behave "rationally". Oh > > please. For all the evidence that this is true, there's twice as much > Of course people do not have perfect information. This is why there are > few or no perfect markets. But again, this does not mean market dont > work well, it means the are less than perfect. I understood David's comments on this but cannot follow the implications of yours. If our culture and environment are increasingly dependent upon the marketplace then there should/could be some reasonable expectation of performance based on some criteria. In other words (or David's words) there is built into the system some expectation of rationality upon which the system is maintained. I like the notion of human fallibility but not when its used to maintain a fallacy of potential performance (which is what I understood the implicaton of Davids critique to be) or used as the continuing hopefully o.k. criteria for or apology for haphazard resource allocation which is what I understand to be the implication of your comment. It does not seem sufficient to say that something is good or very very good comparitively because it seems to be working within certain parameters when the basic criteria for what is happening has little to do with the end game. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. > > > > So the theory says markets allocate efficiently, government stifles the > > workings of the market, and people behave rationally when it comes to > > finance. Pardon the pun, but I don't buy it. > All of those comments make sense. But they are not digital / balck and > white. As each of those points gets fuzzier, the systme breaks down. > There are many countries where lack of information or other important > factors (like communication, transportation, capital, etc) are missing > and so markets get a bit screwy -- you pay 3 times the price for a > product in one place than in another. Same with govt. Too much or the > wrong kind of govt, and things begin to go off track. People behave > rationally -- of course they do, within the limits of information and > value systems. Many pries and financial decisions are quite tight around > North America, with price variations in the 5 to 25% range. This is not > perfect, but it is very, very good. > > > Markets are a tool - a really great tool for some applications - but only a > > tool. Arguing about the superiority of government or markets is like > > arguing about which is better, the hammer or the saw. You need both to > > build a house, and both are useless or dangerous in the hands of nitwits. > > I agree completely. To me the real debate is about where and in what > measure each should be employed. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube > Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group > University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg > Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 > UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 > Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 > x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 02:57:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA10186 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:57:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA20669 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:56:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA18401; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:50:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:46:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA18097 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:46:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA18093 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:46:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA27027; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:51:39 -0800 Message-ID: <34C99C96.9C2BF478@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:47:34 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eric Warren CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: SOUNDPROOF WINDOWS References: <34C520BF.EBAB7791@cow-net.com> <34C5F0E6.B6D3A9F5@sover.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1492 There are non expanding foams (some new latex ones are on the market as well) I've generally found that if the foam is placed in two stages there is little risk. The biggest risk might be creating excessive rigidity to the frame or wall elements if they are subject to structural stress or potential movement. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Eric Warren wrote: > John Salmen wrote: > > > >Snip.. Cutting into the cavity between frame and window and spray foaming > > would be effective way of limiting sound transmission from the existing window. > > This is in essence the advice we received for soundproofing an older commercial > > building. > > I've understood spray foaming around window cavities to be a bad idea. > Foams apparently have enough expansive force to put excessive pressure > on sills, jambs, etc. I've never used the stuff - are there foams > specific to this type of application? > > -Eric Warren > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 08:37:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA13425 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:37:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA05039 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:35:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA22877; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:30:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:25:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA22603 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:25:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA22599 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:25:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA02886 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:31:16 -0500 Message-id: <2007628@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 24 Jan 98 08:36:50 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Active Solar Thermal Storage Matrices To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1493 Norman's houses are passive collection, they sandwich the living space between the hot store in the attic and the cool store below the lowest floor slab. Space temp is managed by blowers which either add heat from the top store or remove heat to the cool store. So they are passive collection, active delivery. I have been in one of Norman's 100% solar homes. The lower level was considerably cooler than what I would want in my own home. Vic Reno said many years ago - any house can be 100% solar, just don't turn on the heat. It isn't clear to me why I wouldn't be willing to spend a little $$$ to even up the temp with back-up heat - is 100% that crucial? Norman is probably the deepest thinker about how to collect solar energy in a practical fashion that I have ever run into. Andy Shapiro, who is on this list, worked with Norman for several years, so he can comment with far more depth than I can. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 08:44:13 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA13487 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:44:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06146 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:42:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA23184; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:37:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:33:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA22933 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:33:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA22929 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:33:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA03112 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 08:38:46 -0500 Message-id: <2007676@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 24 Jan 98 08:44:20 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: GBlist: Cost of labor To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1494 John Salmen reminds us that real wages have fallen in the past 20+ years in US and Canada, and says that he doesn't think labor costs are too high. My previous post observes that labor is costing too much relative to materials, hence cheap industrial materials and the loss of craft. I think we are both right, and I suggest that the solution lies not so much in what people are paid but in how society allocates the tax moneys collected. If the US allocated $$$ to health instead of high-tech sickness care, allocated $$ to learning instead of education industry, didn't spend $$$ on war machines, didn't need to spend $$$ on national debt, etc., the money we each would earn would be much more sufficient yet labor could become effectively cheaper, allowing us to pay for more labor on our buildings (for example). We wouldn't ern more but would become effectively much "richer". I'm no economist - does anything I'm saying here make sense, or am I an idiot-droid? Marc Rosenbaum ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 09:45:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA13915 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:45:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA16006 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:44:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA24625; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:39:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:34:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA24408 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:34:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA24404 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:34:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA11242; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:40:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:40:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from asy12.vineyard.net(199.232.92.52) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma011202; Sat Jan 24 09:39:39 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2003968@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: Re: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1495 Marc - You wrote: >We had a great presentation on thatch at NESEA couple of years back by a >thatcher from Ireland. My recollection was that they need re-thatching every >15-20 years or so. The real grabber was that he was getting something over >$1000/square (anyone remeber the exact numbers here? - John Abrams?) It was more than that - I can't remember the exact figure because it exceeded the capacity of my mental calculator. Thatch is a very labor intensive, high maintenance roofing material that has been used extensively because of its availability in certain regions at times when other materials to shed water were hard to come by. I was taking an early morning run in a small village in England a few years ago, and I stopped to watch some thatchers at work. I asked them if I could ask a few stupid questions. They said, "You're American right? We'd expect nothing different." Turned out they were 4th generation thatchers who told me they wouldn't have a prayer of making a living if not for English preservation laws that require thatch to be maintained and replaced in historic districts, meaning that only the well-to-do can live in such areas (dual intent laws??). They said, chuckling, "We've got a product that lasts half as long and costs four times as much, and we've got more work than we handle. How do you like that, mate?" Roofing is a tough one - truly durable natural materials like slate and tile are very expensive. I like the plastic slate-lookalikes called Authentic Roof (there's an ironic name, huh?) made from recycled polymers, primarily baby diapers and tires. I think a 75 - 125 year life expectancy for these shingles is not unrealistic. Made by Crowe Industries in Hamilton, Ontario, (905) 529-6818. Anyone else have suggestions for durable, attractive, green roofing materials that you've actually used more than once and been satisfied with? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 10:50:05 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14472 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:50:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA28584 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:48:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28091; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:43:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:38:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA27581 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:38:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo14.mx.aol.com (imo14.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.169]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA27577 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:38:38 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: <3e0edf15.34ca0750@aol.com> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:22:54 EST To: jabrams@vineyard.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, Faythwrite@aol.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Roofing question Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1496 In a message dated 98-01-24 09:42:12 EST, jabrams writes: << Roofing is a tough one - truly durable natural materials like slate and tile are very expensive. I like the plastic slate-lookalikes called Authentic Roof (there's an ironic name, huh?) made from recycled polymers, primarily baby diapers and tires. I think a 75 - 125 year life expectancy for these shingles is not unrealistic. Made by Crowe Industries in Hamilton, Ontario, (905) 529-6818. Anyone else have suggestions for durable, attractive, green roofing materials that you've actually used more than once and been satisfied with? >> Yes. I am aware ofthe Crowe product and like it except cost. A corrugated product by Ondura can be found in many hardware stores. It's a 50% postconsumer cellulose content, asphalt impregnated (not so great) melamine coated roofing product that comes in sheets and is a great performing product. Can be installed over existing roofing, (so no tear off) lasts much longer (lifetime of dwelling warranty) and highly wind resistant (over 130 mph). Basically exceeds a tin roof performance at much better cost. Now, I will say that my wife works for Ondura but that just allows me to have more information. I also like tile but cost does enter in. I grew up with cedar shakes but cannot justify that now. Let me know if you want more information and I'll pass it on. Phil SustainAbility Fredericksburg, Va ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 10:57:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14500 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:57:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00102 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:55:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28665; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:50:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:46:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28296 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:46:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28292 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:45:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA18757; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:51:21 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:51:20 EST From: John Straube Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #24 To: John Salmen cc: NMBlues , greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <34C98D95.4C01A5C@cow-net.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1497 On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, John Salmen wrote: > > << Becasue labour is not taxed for its environmental damage, > > labour becomes effectively cheaper, which has some social beenfits (more > > employment). >> > > > > I like this idea---I would love to see some discussion of this one item alone. > First, John, you have obviously missed the point. Effectively cheaper. The same $ per hour, but a relatively smaller proportion of the total cost, hence "cheaper"! This is what happens in third world countries (and what economics says will happen), but the absolute dollar values are elevated in asolute terms. > The problem here is that in most third world countries (where the bulk of > consumerables and disposable commodities are produced) and increasingly in first > world countries (such as Canada and some midwestern states) labour is already at > or below poverty levels which is a level that cannot safely sustain life, This got me going on a whole different tack. I am sorry, but this is, repretfully, crap. If you have ever been to a third world country, or to almost any country other than Canada and to a lessor extent the US, the poverty levels set here are completely relative and have no bearing on what people actually need to "sustain life" . There are many people on ths list who probably live healthier, happier, more fulfilled lived because they live below "the poverty line", e.g., sustainale in a home of their own making. They have chosen a different path that doesnt require $25000 or more to survive Not to belittle the problems of people stuck in the system who cannot see their way out (the people who I beleive are the ones that you a refering to), but the situations are often a choice of values. If I could not get a well-paying job, I would move somewhere cheap and do physical or menial labour. I have known people who say it is difficult to get by on a family inclome of "only" $70,000. sure it is, if two cars, a 2500 sq ft houe in subrbia, vacations etc are "necessary" My father has an old-fashioned view of social assistance that I try to follow. When he meets someone who says that he has a problem, he offers them a job on his farm. We have had quite a collection of characters over the years. The deal normally involved free rom and board and pay. Most of those who were not metnally or physically disabled left quickly when they found that the job involved hard work and dirt, sort of like what my Dad, Mom, and thousands of others have had to do for years to earn a living. At the consulting irm we worked for we hired a big strong guy who "had a run fo bad luck" to help in the lab and move samples, furniture, etc. Two days after he started, we left, send the workers compensation claim for his back that then cost us $13200. These embryonic experiences, combined with time in truly poor countries, where poverty line has meaning, have strongly shaped my cynism on the topic of how many Candaian need real help -- there are some, even many, and I will gladly and eagerly pay my taxes and volunteer to help these people. There are way too many people who have weekends off, work 8 hours a day (unlike me), drive a car(!), and then inform me they are below the povery line! Especially on a greebuilding list that includes such a diverse group of people with diverse incomes and lifestyle, I find it hard to support the contention that we have an epidemic of true povery. We have a social problem that people do not or are not allowed to, or are not encouraged to work, or beleive they must work at $25 per hour to live, or beleive there housing options are limited to a double trailer financed with a 30 yr mortgage. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 11:08:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA14604 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:08:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA02691 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:07:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA29826; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:01:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:57:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29070 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29064 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:56:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA19073; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:02:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:02:16 EST From: John Straube Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: econ101 To: John Salmen cc: greenbuilding@crest.org, dmfoley@acadia.net X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <34C99B59.D39D73D6@cow-net.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1498 On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, John Salmen wrote: > John Straube wrote: > > Of course people do not have perfect information. This is why there are > > few or no perfect markets. But again, this does not mean market dont > > work well, it means the are less than perfect. > > I understood David's comments on this but cannot follow the implications of > yours. If our culture and environment are increasingly dependent upon the You are searchng for an ideal. I am not arguing that market economics are the ideal way for Man to live sustainable with the earth, but that it can be the best, real system. It is sort of like democracy: it is an imperfect system, really awful, BUT IT IS THE BEST WORKING MODEL WE HAVE. No dreams of a workers paradise that have failed in dozens of attempts, no hopes of a benevolent dictator, just an imperfect system that works the best of all. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 12:39:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA15463 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:39:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA23732 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:38:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA03387; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:32:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:28:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA02929 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:28:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA02921 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:28:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from hp (tpm2-50.flash.net [209.30.40.50]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA17472 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:33:38 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34CA2601.5859@flash.net> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:33:53 -0700 From: Steve X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: roof insulation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1499 I'm trying to design a sustainable friendly house that doesn't poison me (or the environment); that will be an example of the best that we know that will work. I'm probably going to go with straw bale, but am trying to decide about the best roof insulation that will match the R50+ in the walls & not out-gas. Would straw bales work well here or does anyone have better ideas on this? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 13:30:53 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15890 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:30:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA05753 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05817; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:24:02 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:19:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05129 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:19:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05123 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:19:25 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 14122 invoked by uid 0); 24 Jan 1998 18:28:01 -0000 Received: from ppp-2.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.195?) (198.175.11.195) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 24 Jan 1998 18:28:01 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:39:45 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Dorwin windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1500 Michael, A friend who lives near me in Northern New York State has just built a house with many, many windows, and all were Dorwin. She and her builder researched windows a fair amount and decided on them. She seems happy with them so far. I'm building an addition to my own house and have also been researching windows. The current house uses fixed glass units of HeatMirror brand triple pane (interior pane is plastic film). They are a noticable improvement over any double pane glass. Virtually no condensation even in very cold weather, and much less cold drafts when sitting next to them, and better sound isolation too. I have found very few American companies that are offering triple pane windows anymore. Hurd offers HeatMirror, Pella a triple pane with the inner pane being sort of a storm pane, and I think Marvin offers a triple pane option. Dorwin is the only one that uses fibreglass frames. From what I can tell, their main advantage is they will not rot from moisture getting on the wood. However, I prefer the aesthetics of the wooden windows. I doubt there is that much real difference in the overall energy efficiency between these different triple pane styles, as long as you get a low-e coating. Chris Neurath ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 13:34:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA15923 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:34:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06675 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:32:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA06199; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:27:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:22:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05582 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:22:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA05568 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:22:32 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 14740 invoked by uid 0); 24 Jan 1998 18:31:11 -0000 Received: from ppp-2.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.195?) (198.175.11.195) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 24 Jan 1998 18:31:11 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:42:55 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Dorwin windows Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1501 Michael, Some more about energy efficient windows. You may have been confused about HeatMirror and my descriptions because my present windows are not really very conventional and many people would never even consider doing what I did. I took assembled glass units that didn't have any framing and set the glass in my rough openings. Then I framed and sealed them with 3/4"x3/4" strips of wood on each side and silicone caulk. The rough openings were more carefully made than most builders would bother with because I knew they would be exposed finish surfaces. The house is rather rustic and the "raw wood" looks fine to me. I could have added more finished wood to cover the studs but I didn't think it was aesthetically or functionally needed. The net result of this window method is a window that costs 1/4 as much as a manufactured window. And since I didn't need most of my windows to be opening, I didn't loose anything. I had seen other houses built with this type of window and had read about it in owner-builder books. It is harder to track down companies willing to sell you the "raw" glass units, but if you are interested I can give you some leads and more suggestions. Also, my windows are at least as energy-efficient as the best manufactured windows. There is absolutely no air leakage around the edges, there are no spaces that need stuffing with insulation, and I used very efficient (at the time) HeatMirror units with R-5 ratings. My addition will probably use a combination of the above described windows for those windows that will be non-opening, and either Hurd or Pella windows for the few that I will want opening. I will use their highest efficiency glazing options. Just yesterday I talked to one of the leading fabricators of HeatMirror glass units about their latest products. Alpen Inc., in Boulder Colorado, has tried putting two film layers between outer glass panes to get 4 panes surrounding 3 air spaces. The film layers have low-e coatings, the air spaces can be the optimum for energy efficiency of 1/2", "warm-edge" spacers can be used, and krypton or argon gas can be used to fill the spaces. The resulting R value is 14 which is truly amazing compared to the R of 2 or 3 possible with even the best double pane glass. The reason I like HeatMirror is because the inner panes are light weight plastic film. The units don't weigh much more than regular double pane units and the film allows better solar transmittance and gain than glass for south facing windows. Four panes of glass gets very heavy and is not good for solar gain. I'm not sure I will spend the extra to get the highest R value. I may run calculations to see how much heating fuel it will save, and how much longer the house can stay a comfortable temperature without any heating inputs other than the sun. In the next few days I'll be collecting accurate cost information, but for now, it looks like HeatMirror glass unframed (triple pane) will run about $10 per square foot, while opening Pella or Hurd windows are more like $35 per square foot. The windows I've been pricing are about 10 square feet. I think Dorwin are similar to the Pella or Hurd in price. If you live in a cold climate, I think you'll like high efficiency triple pane windows. And they probably will only cost you about 20 or 30% more than the best double pane glass. Happy glazing. Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 14:17:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA16282 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:17:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA19854 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:15:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA08079; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:10:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:06:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA07779 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:06:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA07775 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:06:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA07069; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:11:14 -0800 Message-ID: <34CA3BD9.CAFF71B9@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:07:05 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube CC: NMBlues , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #24 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1502 John Straube wrote: > First, John, you have obviously missed the point. Effectively cheaper. > The same $ per hour, but a relatively smaller proportion of the total > cost, hence "cheaper"! This is what happens in third world countries > (and what economics says will happen), but the absolute dollar values are > elevated in asolute terms. > I did not think I missed the point I simply went on to discuss some of the consequences of your point - as resource or material portions of a production cost become higher because of cultural valuesor less subject to economic control or practice labour remains as a flexible value, especially if the cultural values (i.e. standard of living) are eroded. It is consistent with economic practice that the marketplace seek advantage in this and further 'cheapen' labour. > > The problem here is that in most third world countries (where the bulk of > > consumerables and disposable commodities are produced) and increasingly in first > > world countries (such as Canada and some midwestern states) labour is already at > > or below poverty levels which is a level that cannot safely sustain life, > > This got me going on a whole different tack. I am sorry, but this is, crap > repretfully, (snip) thepoverty levels set here are completely relative and have no > bearing onwhat people actually need to "sustain life" .(snip) > Not to belittle the problems of people stuck in the system who cannot see > their way out (the people who I beleive are the ones that you a refering > to), but the situations are often a choice of values. > > There are way too many people who have weekends off, work 8 hours > a day (unlike me), drive a car(!), and then inform me they are below the > povery line! > > I find it hard to support the > contention that we have an epidemic of true povery. We have a social problem > that people do not or are not allowed to, or are not encouraged to work, or > - It is difficult to not want to follow your lead and say something derogatory about your opinions or comments. I at least find this information disturbing and feel that it represents a major impediment to the development of any sustainable practices or technologies as might be represented in greenbuilding practices.The following from the Env. Research Foundation is a good source of some basic material which might be harder to dismiss than my comments were John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S.. Real wages for non-supervisory workers --75% to 80% of all workers --have been declining since 1972.[1] Measured in constant (inflation-adjusted) dollars, a full-time worker in 1972 took home $315.44 per week; today that same worker takes home $255.90 per week,[2] a 19% decline. in the 1990s: in the period 1989 to 1995, median family income dropped in 5 out of 6 years.[3] The total drop in median family income since 1989 has been 6%. Meanwhile, inequality is increasing sharply. If you break society into 10 groups, each representing 10%, the incomes of the richest 10% rose 21% between 1979 and 1987, while the incomes of the poorest 10% dropped by 12%.[4] Between 1983 and 1992, an astonishing 99% of the increase in the nation's wealth was awarded to the wealthiest 20% of the people.[5] In 1949, the richest 1% of the population owned 21% of all assets; today that richest 1% owns more than 40% of all assets. During the period 1980-1995 corporate revenues rose 129.5%, corporate profits rose 127%, and executive pay rose 182%.[7] Meanwhile the share of the federal tax burden borne by corporations and the super-rich has been declining, and the share paid by the middle class has been increasing. In 1950, taxes on corporate income provided 26.4% of federal tax income. In 1995, that figure had fallen to 11.6%.[8] During the same period, the tax burden on individuals has risen. In 1972, the social security tax, a wage tax, was 4.8%; today it is 7.65%, a 59% increase.[9] Furthermore, in 1972, the median sales tax across all the states was 3%; today it is 7%.[10] Meanwhile the income tax on the rich and super-rich has dropped dramatically. In 1950 the top income tax was 91%; in 1995, it was 39.6%. [11] Because of phenomenal growth in profits in recent decades, many corporations are now larger than countries. Of the 100 largest economies in the world, 51 are now corporations and only 49 are countries. General Motors --the 22nd largest economy in the world --is larger than Denmark, larger than Thailand, larger than Hong Kong, larger than Turkey. Ford Motor is larger than South Africa, larger than Saudi Arabia, larger than Norway. Exxon is larger than Finland, larger than Poland, larger than Ukraine. Wal-Mart Stores is larger than Israel, larger than Greece. Only 5% of households own 77% of all corporate stocks.[13] The wealth of corporate executives and corporate shareholders, and their direct financial support of political candidates, translate into raw political power. One result of this power is that Congress, in recent years, has drastically reduced taxes for the wealthy, and for corporations, but has increased taxes on the middle class and the working poor. Furthermore, Congress has embroiled the United States in so-called "free trade" agreements (NAFTA and GATT) that have diminished the power of our national government (indeed, all national governments) to control corporate behavior. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 15:35:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA16864 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:35:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA10315 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:34:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11134; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:28:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:24:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA10831 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:24:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA10827 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:24:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-42.topher.net [208.199.183.248]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA18727 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:21:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:21:13 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801242021.OAA18727@mail.topher.net> X-Sender: ewestbrook@mail.topher.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Elena Westbrook Subject: GBlist: CHAT: Lessons From the Ice Storm Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1503 This message came from a copyeditors group I belong to. Thought you'd be interested in her experience and conclusions: >Hi, Gang -- I'm just back on line after 12 days without power due to the >ice storm in northern New York. Many of us were caught in a state of >unpreparedness, even though we all knew better. At the risk of sounding >like your overconcerned father, I'm providing a list of items you should >have on hand AT ALL TIMES: >The positive side of the disaster was the way in which community >members pulled together to help each other. Older people, the Amish, >and alternative energy types who live off the grid as much as possible >offered valuable skills and labor to the rest of us. We pooled our >knowledge, some of it dating back to the nineteenth century. We became >keenly aware that if the storm had hit one hundred years ago, it would >have been an inconvenience, not a disaster. The experience confirmed my >desire to learn more about living without fossil fuel-based electricity. > >I'm glad to be back -- reading two weeks' worth of postings was an >EXTREMELY LEGITIMATE activity, allowing me to postpone the nasty job of >discarding all the food in my refrigerator. > >Kathy Babbitt >Canton, New York >kbab@northnet.org FYI, I've already written to that group to tell them about the GB list and help them find resources. Best Regards, Elena Westbrook, ELS WordWright Communications EWestbrook@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 15:55:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA17066 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:55:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15152 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:53:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA11958; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:48:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:43:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA11598 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:43:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (root@hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.142]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA11594 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:43:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin077.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.87]) by hawk.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA10495; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:49:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34CA53B7.6F4@uidaho.edu> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:48:55 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Salmen CC: "John R. Abrams" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Eco-industrial Park References: <34C94AF8.30DDDBB@cow-net.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1504 Can't remember the details/sender of the original post - but I came across an article in the recent (Winter '98) issue of the Amicus Journal published by NRDC. On p.14 there's a discussion of the "eco-industrial park" work in the Intervale - the Winooski River valley near Burlington, Vermont. It describes the efforts of Will Raap and others to turn waste into resources linking a wood-burning power plant, gardening equipment store, greenhouses, medical facility, ice cream plant, community gardens, composting facilities... Kurt Rathmann Moscow, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 24 17:20:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA17737 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 17:20:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA08158 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 17:19:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14942; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 17:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 24 Jan 1998 17:09:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14640 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 17:09:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14636 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 17:08:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA14249; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:14:05 -0800 Message-ID: <34CA66B5.94F5295D@cow-net.com> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:09:57 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Cost of labor References: <2007676@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1505 Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > John Salmen reminds us that real wages have fallen in the past 20+ years in US > and Canada, and says that he doesn't think labor costs are too high. My > previous post observes that labor is costing too much relative to materials, > hence cheap industrial materials and the loss of craft. > > I think we are both right, and I suggest that the solution lies not so much in > what people are paid but in how society allocates the tax moneys collected. If > the US allocated $$$ to health instead of high-tech sickness care, allocated $$ > to learning instead of education industry, didn't spend $$$ on war machines, > didn't need to spend $$$ on national debt, etc., the money we each would earn > would be much more sufficient yet labor could become effectively cheaper, > allowing us to pay for more labor on our buildings (for example). We wouldn't > ern more but would become effectively much "richer". > > I'm no economist - does anything I'm saying here make sense, or am I an > idiot-droid? I would agree that labour is costing too much in relation to materials but only to say that the cost of materials is too low and I would also add that the cost of labour is too low to sustain craft (being equally relevant for sustainablility as an aspect of craft is the conscientious use of materials - another good potential lesson from the pursuit of SB). So we have two costs that are undervalued and a society that cannot afford to pay more? These two costs or values; our time and the material that the world is made up of are the only tools we have for sustainablility or existence. Neither can be undervalued, underutilized or unappreciated without compromising some aspect of existence. If we do not value our labour then we can ill afford to pay for the true cost of our existence. Current monetary policy as it is evolving is placing increasing restrictions on anything perceived as subsidy or protectionism. A lot of our social programs and environmental programs are deteriorating as a result and wages are dropping substantially as the props that maintained their value relative to true product cost or real purchasing power are deemed illegal within international practice. Any proprietal restriction of resource usage (such as conservation) may also fall under unfair practice codes. This is not a scenario under which greenbuilding or notions of sustainability can thrive because sustaining implies caring for something which implies guardianship which implies control of an economic resource using a set of cultural values that are at odds with the values inherent in monetary policy. I feel I belabour this and everyone I'm sure including myself is growing tired of this thread and its insubstantiality. I mentioned before that I was surprised at the degree of conservatism this issue has brought out within a demographic that I would have thought followed a more egalitarian line. I'm still confused by this as I would have thought that the general experiences of people working for environmental change in building practice would have engendered a more critical attitude towards both the economic and bureaucratic practices that affect us. I know it is not necessarily correct to maintain critical attitudes these days but I think there is a fine line between cooperation and complicity and I'm worrying about the values that are being represented in this discipline. We are a small fish in a very large pond and though there may be much to gain in complicity there already seems too much lost in understanding. My suspicion is that our involvement and interest in the technological aspect of this work because it is generally at the level of applying and marketing the technology rather than at a level of research or functionality has co-opted our work and made us consumers and marketers rather than participants who generally either suffer the affects or have some role in affecting a cure. John Salmen TERRAIN ED.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 25 03:48:05 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA25893 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 03:48:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA28123 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 03:46:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA03510; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 03:38:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 25 Jan 1998 03:33:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA03291 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 03:33:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheetah.pacinfo.com (root@cheetah.pacinfo.com [208.129.40.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA03287 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 03:33:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (p12.tc1.pacinfo.com [208.129.29.12]) by cheetah.pacinfo.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA16932 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:39:23 -0800 Message-ID: X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: greenbuilding@crest.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Clan Handley" Subject: GBlist: The why of owner-building Date: Sun, 25 Jan 98 00:29:14 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id DAA03288 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1506 A man who appeared to be a mason from the crusts of dried cement on his shirt waited patiently one day for a chance to speak with Jacob. The man's voice was gruff--but not his manner. "Jacob, all my life I have made homes for others. Now I am preparing to build a home for myself. Do you have any suggestions?" Jacob laughed. "Who is Jacob the baker to mix mortar and make bricks?" But, then, Jacob raised his left index finger, as if touching an old memory, and waved it in the air, suggesting there was maybe one thought he could offer. "It says in our books: In order for a house to be a house, it must have a window and a door." A smile climbed the man's face. "Jacob, this much even I know." Those behind the man chuckled as well. "But," Jacob continued, as if he did not hear their laughter, "do you know why I think a house must have a window and a door?" Suddenly, it became very quiet again. Humility held over the crowd. People craned their necks to hear. And Jacob began again. "My house must have a door so I can enter myself, and a window so I can see beyond myself!" "And if it doesn't?" asked the man. A great sadness rolled its shadow across Jacob. The words came slowly. "We must remember," said Jacob, "the only difference between a house and a coffin is a door." ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 25 08:13:00 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA26933 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 08:13:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA10817 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 08:11:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA06754; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 08:04:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:59:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA06476 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:58:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA06472 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 07:58:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA12955 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 08:04:12 -0500 Message-id: <2014122@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 25 Jan 98 08:09:48 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1507 --- You wrote: I like the plastic slate-lookalikes called Authentic Roof --- end of quoted material --- I recommended a similar product (Majestic - 800 572-7672) to a neighbor restoring a Victorian home which was moved on pieces (!) and had a slate roof. The original slate was re-installed on the main house, but there wasn't enough to do the ell or carriage house. The plastic slates filled in there. They look fine, but they definitely don't look like the old slates when you can see them adjacent to each other! How about the Crowe product? Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 25 08:23:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA26968 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 08:23:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA12270 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 08:21:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07159; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 08:16:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 25 Jan 1998 08:10:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA06912 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 08:10:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA06908 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 08:10:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA13270 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 08:15:56 -0500 Message-id: <2014161@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 25 Jan 98 08:21:34 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Cost of labor To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1508 --- John Salmen wrote: I would agree that labour is costing too much in relation to materials but only to say that the cost of materials is too low and I would also add that the cost of labour is too low to sustain craft (being equally relevant for sustainablility as an aspect of craft is the conscientious use of materials - another good potential lesson from the pursuit of SB). So we have two costs that are undervalued and a society that cannot afford to pay more? --- end of quoted material --- So I'm going to take a stab at the problem beneath these problems - which is that we in the industrialized countries want TOO MUCH STUFF - we can either have small well crafted homes with fewer high-quality things, or large houses poorly made filled with mostly junk. If we could scale our material desires back significantly, we could pay the real costs of materials AND a decent wage to all. Is this way too simplistic? Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 25 10:02:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27898 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:02:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA28756 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:01:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09683; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:55:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:50:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09295 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:49:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09289 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:49:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA00535 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:55:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:55:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy6.vineyard.net(204.17.195.196) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma000497; Sun Jan 25 09:54:51 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <2014122@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: Re: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1509 Marc R. wrote: >I recommended a similar product (Majestic - 800 572-7672) to a neighbor >restoring a Victorian home which was moved on pieces (!) and had a slate >roof. >The original slate was re-installed on the main house, but there wasn't enough >to do the ell or carriage house. The plastic slates filled in there. They >look fine, but they definitely don't look like the old slates when you can see >them adjacent to each other! How about the Crowe product? The Crowe product has, until now, been made with a single mold. The tiles look remarkably like slate, but they're all the same, so a roof shingled with them doesn't have the variation of a slate roof, doesn't look "Authentic". My understanding is that there will soon be eight different molds, and this may change. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 25 10:04:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27908 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:04:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA29657 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:02:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA09821; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:57:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:52:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09382 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:51:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09378 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:51:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA00623 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:57:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:57:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy6.vineyard.net(204.17.195.196) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma000611; Sun Jan 25 09:56:52 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Economy and Environment Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1510 In some ways, our discussion of green building has wandered far afield into the realms of commerce, government, society, culture, and, to some small degree, spirit. But these realms are so inextricably interconnected that I don't think it's too much of a stretch, so here's more. Like others, I believe that commerce, government regulation and assistance, and social responsibility must all be designed, fashioned, developed, brokered, and tended to in such a way that they serve the planet and its creatures. In systems that work all parts work together. The market isn't the savior, nor is government. We are. That's why, in complex modern society, we've never seen a system of government or business that works. We haven't put them all together yet. I'll share some thoughts, most of which come from, or are summarized from, the 10th anniversary issue of Business Ethics magazine, which asks these questions, "What has ethical business accomplished in ten years?" What's Next? Are things getting better or worse?" The answers, in my view: a lot, a lot, and better. Editor Marjorie Kelly questions the ownership rights of stockholders, and writes that at year end 1995, fixed assets of Standard and Poor's 500 companies totaled $1.2 trillion. Market value was $4.6 trillion. So intangibles account for $3.4 trillion. What does this consist of? Primarily knowlege base. What's that really? Employees. Great Britain owned India. Southern gentry owned slaves. We've discredited those ideas. Do stockholders own employees? In our current system, yes. What if, when companies were sold, employees said, "We're not going"? The company would be devalued. The buyer would only be getting lifeless assets - files no one can find, machines no one can run, customers no one has heard of. What if this happened at even one major company? she asks. What tremors would go through boardrooms nationwide? We might find ourselves recalling Gandhi confronting the British overlords, or Lincoln facing off with slaveholders. And we might look back on the era of "socially responsible business" as the ripple before the wave. Maybe that's what's next. Same issue of Business Ethics. Donella Meadows writes that a team of ecologists, economists, and geographers from 12 universities and labs in three nations published a report in Nature magazine of "how much nature is worth". She quotes ecologist David Ehrenfield, "I am afraid I don't see much hope for a civilization so stupid that it demands a quantitative estimate of the value of its own umbilical cord." But she's intrigued, and so am I. They divided the earth into 16 categories - coastal ocean, open ocean, tropical forest, grassland, etc. For each they estimated the value of "ecosystem services" supplied by the land or sea-scape. The list of services includes: * Pollination (imagine having to brush all the apple blossoms in New England, one by one) * Waste treatment (what if bacteria went on strike?) * Control of pest populations; * Climate regulation; * Soilformation; * Nutrient cycling; * Food and raw materials (one of the few categories with established market values); * Species protection; * Maintenance of the library of genetic resources; * Cultural (the imponderable category that includes the aesthetic, artistic, educational, spiritual, and scientific value of our living world); * and seven others. The scientists came up with the number of $33 trillion a year (compared to the value of the annual output of the world's economy, which is approx. $18 trillion). The $33 trillion could be low, by a factor of ten, or a hundred, or who knows? But, says she, it speaks in a language that business may be able to hear, about the value of what we're destroying. Same issue of Business Ethics, from a short piece by David Korten: Ralph Estes, author of Tyranny of the Bottom Line, has conservatively estimated the annual costs US corporations impose on society at $2.6 trillion, not including direct subsidies and tax breaks (1994). This compares to 1994 US corporate profits of $515 billion. In other words, society provides hidden subsidies to corporations that are worth five times the profits they generate. If we can afford to subsidize so heavily in ways that we don't even want or intend to, we can afford to do better, if we only had the will. What does all this mean? To me, it is simply enough that this kind of thinking is taking place. It stimulates minor incremental change in quiet corners of world commerce. Just like the thinking that is taking place in this green building discussion stimulates similar incremental change. Since we can't possibly predict where all this will lead, shouldn't we just keep thinking together and celebrate the diversity of opinion among us? And can we continue to think broadly and specifically at the same time, without losing those who are wishing for only one or the other? Hope so. I for one continue to learn tremendously from this discussion, even more so as I learn to weed through/filter/bypass what isn't useful to me. Thanks to all. John Abrams (Business Ethics, (612) 879-0695, bizethics@aol.com - by the way, I've used the words of Kelly, Meadows, and Korten almost verbatim in some of this, but edited massively, so I apologize to them if I've mis-represented anything). ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 25 10:24:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA27992 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:24:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA12803 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:23:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA10595; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:17:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:12:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA10255 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:12:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA10249 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:12:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sa2-p49.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.49]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA17546 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:17:57 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34CB5684.33A6@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 10:13:08 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Fake Slate Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1511 John wrote: "I like the plastic slate-lookalikes called Authentic Roof (there's an ironic name, huh?) made from recycled polymers, primarily baby diapers and tires. I think a 75 - 125 year life expectancy for these shingles is not unrealistic." Are these estimates based on excellerated aging test or just a guess? My experience with composite slate "lookalikes" is somewhat different. I will preface by saying that we do slate roofing and therefore I am admittedly prejudiced. One of our fellow slaters in the area used a product called Suprador several years ago, in less than ten years it began showing serious signs of deterioration and UV degradation. As to looking anything like slate, that resemblance passed even more quickly. Marc wrote: "I recommended a similar product (Majestic - 800 572-7672) to a neighbor" Why did you recommend the composites over real slate? If my suspicions are correct that the longevity of the composites won't begin to match the original, on a cost per annum basis you may not have done them any favors. What was the actual cost difference on the two options? Marc also wrote: "So I'm going to take a stab at the problem beneath these problems - which is that we in the industrialized countries want TOO MUCH STUFF - we can either have small well crafted homes with fewer high-quality things, or large houses poorly made filled with mostly junk. If we could scale our material desires back significantly, we could pay the real costs of materials AND a decent wage to all. Is this way too simplistic? " Nicely synthesized, thank you for the clarification, a nice example of more is less. There is an ongoing study by an economics dept at some university (sorry about the incompleteness of the data, I hope someone else might know the source), the basis of the study was to take a relatively small cross section and track them over a long period of time (20-30 years), just the opposite of most studies of this nature. Their findings seemed to clearly indicate that diminishing earning power may be a myth, the group on average have considerably more "stuff" than at the begining. If I look around my micro culture I certainly see the same kind of results. I know that in my family we have all acquired much more "stuff" than the average household of say the 50's and I believe this is true throughout this society (NA). While quantity is not a factor of quality, the difference in volume is astounding when you look at it and the quality of 1950's goods was not all that fabulous. In fact, I would venture to say that much of what we have now is actually superior to what was available in 1950. I'm not saying that this is a good thing necessarily, but it is an indication that the measuring method most often used is flawed. Is anyone else familiar with this study? Sorry Marc, after you so nicely smooth off the sharpe edges, I come along and rough it up again. I don't imagine this will go down smoothly. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 25 11:54:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA29009 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:54:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA15242 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:53:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA13842; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:47:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:43:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA13536 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA13531 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:43:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.26] (blf26.acadia.net [205.217.217.26]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id LAA04307 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:48:30 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:46:29 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: roof insulation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1512 Steve wrote: >I'm trying to design a sustainable friendly house that doesn't poison >me (or the environment); that will be an example of the best that we >know that will work. I'm probably going to go with straw bale, but am >trying to decide about the best roof insulation that will match the R50+ >in the walls & not out-gas. Would straw bales work well here or does >anyone have better ideas on this? end of quote You'll probably get a lot of advice about this, and several questions, such as: Where do you live? Is the roof an insulated attic or cathedral ceiling? What is the roofing material? I'll just address your question about straw in the roof. Our experience with straw bale construction is limited - we've only done one design, for a post-and-beam house with straw bale infill. For the roof, our design called for sheathing over the timber frame with boards. Atop that, 14 inch deep wood i-joists (TJI joists - there are other brands too) over the boards, attaching them with screws through the bottom chord of the i-joist, and spacing them a bale's length apart. 14 inches deep was about 3/4 inch deeper than the depth of the available straw bales, leaving a vent channel, and the bales were to be placed between the i-joists. Little gaps between bales to be filled with loose straw. Then another layer of boards on top of the i-joists, then asphalt paper. Then metal roofing. Soffit and ridge vent of course. Should work like a charm, but we don't have field data. (We had a dispute with the owner, being that she didn't pay us. End of relationship.) What do others think of this idea? Some may object to lack of vapor retarder, but with venting is this necessary? David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 25 12:07:44 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA29110 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:07:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA24551 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:06:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA14572; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:00:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:56:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14081 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:56:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.ntplx.net (mail.ntplx.net [204.213.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14077 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 11:56:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ntplx.net (p04-32.hartford.dialin.ntplx.com [204.213.188.182]) by mail.ntplx.net (8.8.7/NETPLEX) with ESMTP id MAA14200; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:01:58 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34CB71F2.1A3737A0@ntplx.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:10:18 -0500 From: sherry Reply-To: sherry@ntplx.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Central hepa filters Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1513 Many thanks to all the suggestions and leads that I have received regarding this issue. I received this site in an email and wondered if anyone has any experience with this system. http://www.pureairsystems.com/index.htm Regards, Sherry Kern-Altman West Hartford, CT ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 25 13:53:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00092 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:53:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA06180 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:51:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18451; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:46:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:41:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA18166 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:41:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from transfer.usit.net (root@transfer.usit.net [208.10.171.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA18161 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:41:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (DIALUP20.TNKNO.USIT.NET [205.241.221.20]) by transfer.usit.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA22459 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:46:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 13:46:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801251846.NAA22459@transfer.usit.net> X-Sender: bfloyd@pop.usit.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: betsy hooper & buddy floyd Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #24 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1514 Chuck Hinckley wrote: >John Salmen wrote: > > >> To say that the price is generated by a public is closer to the truth but I >> question both the consciousness and the ability for consciousness on the part of >> the public because of the sophistication of the economic process involved. A >> process that underlies the fact that they will be charged not a $ less than they >> can afford and if debt servicing is any clue probably a $ more. > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >> ______________________________________________________________________ > >I seem to end my reading of so many of these evil economics posts with >the invariable feeling that the rest of the message got cut off. I'm >left with this void, thinking that the "Therefore........., or "The >alternative would be........, or "Clearly, we can change the paradigm >by...........portion was lost. I don't understand what is being proposed >as the solution to this horrid system or what alternate system is going >to replace it. Don't miss understand me, I'm not the free market >apologist that I might seem. I simply am not convinced that regulation, >legislation and governmental oversight are in any way preferable. If >there is some other dynamic force at work here, then lets identify it. I >would love to see the future of the planet being cared for by some >enlightened and beneficent power but I think it's beyond my faith. > >I believe we are here, now, with only our own best efforts to depend on. >If we don't work within the market that exists, what do we replace it >with and how do we accomplish that? If not from within, then where from? >I hope this is not read as argumentative and negative, I'm not casting >aspersions at anyone. I would quite frankly, like to get this thread on >a more productive track, it is the essential question that needs be >answered. Without some clear and defined agenda, this will end up being >just so much more useless rhetoric and of no use at all in the long run. > >Chuck Hinckley Ok, I'm relatively new to the list, and my proposed ideas may seem a bit naive, but we can look at them as a starting point for accumulating more information and ideas. Perhaps I am wrong, but I seem to have heard from several sources, and willingly read between the lines of this dialog, that a judicious application of regulation in conjunction with the free market may be our best hope for a solution. As I see it, there are a couple of different threads that need to be woven together to make this work. 1) The Educated Consumer: This is not terribly likely to happen as education requires a lot of self motivation. Most of us less dedicated people are driven by complex motivations that include limited resources of time and money. It would be helpful for the harried among us to have an easily accessible, reliable source for "green" information. 2) Pay the "real" price for pollution and resource depletion: This is where the government must step in. As best I can determine, it already skews the marketplace, often in the wrong direction. Without significant input from other sources (like lots of letters from you and me), corporate America effectively controls our government. So folks, how about that old pollution and resource tax on manufacturers reflecting a) the cost of cleanup, b) value we assign to a clean environment, and c) a resource depletion tax. Of course, we have plenty of room for debate on how to assign a monetary value to a cleaner environment (and to resource depletion). And we'd have to phase it in gently. I for one, am not in favor of the sort of economic and political disruption that would follow an immediate drastic change. As I see it the first action item would be getting congress to get rid of the subsidies for waste and pollution. (You know, subsidized timber sales, road building subsidies that neglect potentially more efficient modes of transportation like rail, etc.) Can someone out there succinctly describe some of these subsidies. Without a clearer idea of what's going on, I cannot write a clear letter to my senator. And let's try to keep political rhetoric out of it. OK folks? Have at it :-) Betsy Hooper ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 25 15:08:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA01431 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:08:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA08673 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:07:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21874; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:01:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 25 Jan 1998 14:57:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA21470 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 14:57:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21466 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 14:57:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from ssh.ampsc.com (ssh.ampsc.com [207.102.161.104]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA22577; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:06:53 -0800 Message-ID: <34CB9A1D.66BF@ampsc.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 12:01:33 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John R. Abrams" CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: GBlist: Economy and Environment References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1515 John R. Abrams wrote: > > In some ways, our discussion of green building has wandered far afield into > the realms of commerce, government, society, culture, and, to some small > degree, spirit. But these realms are so inextricably interconnected that > I don't think it's too much of a stretch, so here's more. > > Like others, I believe that commerce, government regulation and > assistance, and social responsibility must all be designed, fashioned, > developed, brokered, and tended to in such a way that they serve the planet > and its creatures. In systems that work all parts work together. The > market isn't the savior, nor is government. We are. That's why, in > complex modern society, we've never seen a system of government or business > that works. We haven't put them all together yet. I hope I haven't misunderstood your meaning so far, but I think you would be more correct if you had said, 'We are the market and the government.' Your point being? My point is that we make up the market and we make up our representation in government. The problems are not market responsible, but government responsible. The government has been charged with, and have duly accepted, the responsibility to maintain health and safety for us all, and as we now see rapidly diminishing resources and increasingly, terminal health related ailments threaten our existance, which together threaten our health and safety, then it becomes obvious that government, 'their' laws, rules, and regulations and their application have failed to protect and preserve our health and safety. The effort of government must be redirected to compensate for these threats, not as a stop gap measure, but as a change in policy. ie. put the population and citizenary first, not business. > > I'll share some thoughts, most of which come from, or are summarized from, > the 10th anniversary issue of Business Ethics magazine, which asks these > questions, "What has ethical business accomplished in ten years?" What's > Next? Are things getting better or worse?" The answers, in my view: a > lot, a lot, and better. Wrong again, the persistent dilemnas that face all of us are a direct result of the lack of popular rule through government and the complete lack of human ethics in the business community. Business Ethics equals profits at any cost, as long as we don't get caught! etchics. > > Editor Marjorie Kelly questions the ownership rights of stockholders, and > writes that at year end 1995, fixed assets of Standard and Poor's 500 > companies totaled $1.2 trillion. Market value was $4.6 trillion. So > intangibles account for $3.4 trillion. What does this consist of? > Primarily knowlege base. What's that really? Employees. Great Britain > owned India. Southern gentry owned slaves. We've discredited those ideas. > Do stockholders own employees? In our current system, yes. What if, when > companies were sold, employees said, "We're not going"? The company would > be devalued. The buyer would only be getting lifeless assets - files no > one can find, machines no one can run, customers no one has heard of. What > if this happened at even one major company? she asks. What tremors would > go through boardrooms nationwide? We might find ourselves recalling Gandhi > confronting the British overlords, or Lincoln facing off with slaveholders. > And we might look back on the era of "socially responsible business" as the > ripple before the wave. > > Maybe that's what's next. Maybe and probably not, but that 'recall' accountability is what is needed. Let's home that GreenBuild business ethics does not continue the trend of profits at any cost, as long as we don't get caught! ethics. > > Same issue of Business Ethics. Donella Meadows writes that a team of > ecologists, economists, and geographers from 12 universities and labs in > three nations published a report in Nature magazine of "how much nature is > worth". She quotes ecologist David Ehrenfield, "I am afraid I don't see > much hope for a civilization so stupid that it demands a quantitative > estimate of the value of its own umbilical cord." But she's intrigued, and > so am I. They divided the earth into 16 categories - coastal ocean, open > ocean, tropical forest, grassland, etc. For each they estimated the value > of "ecosystem services" supplied by the land or sea-scape. The list of > services includes: > > * Pollination (imagine having to brush all the apple blossoms in New > England, one by one) > * Waste treatment (what if bacteria went on strike?) > * Control of pest populations; > * Climate regulation; > * Soilformation; > * Nutrient cycling; > * Food and raw materials (one of the few categories with established market > values); > * Species protection; > * Maintenance of the library of genetic resources; > * Cultural (the imponderable category that includes the aesthetic, > artistic, educational, spiritual, and scientific value of our living world); > * and seven others. Watchdogs, enforcement and compliance officers and readily accessible courts, yes and uncorrupted please..... Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 25 16:02:00 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA02461 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:02:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA22738 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23811; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:55:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:50:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA23544 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:50:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23540 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:50:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA16551 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:55:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from bsy8.vineyard.net(199.232.92.88) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma016544; Sun Jan 25 15:55:41 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:13:59 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: kate@vineyard.net (Kate Warner) Subject: GBlist: alternative energy and the Code Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1516 Dear Greenbuilders- There are now two instances on my island of people building houses that are to be powered with PV panels and generators (I am the architect of one) and there is trouble with the electrical inspectors. They do not wish to give final sign-offs to these houses because they are not wired to meet the Code. Without their signature, no C.O's can be issued and financing becomes an issue. One building inspector is sympathetic, one is not and it remains to be seen how the board of the state Electrical Code will handle this. Has anyone had any experience with how to deal with this? Thank you, Kate Warner ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 25 18:18:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA03663 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:18:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA26568 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA29494; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:11:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:07:32 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA29235 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:07:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA29231 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:07:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from ssh.ampsc.com (ssh.ampsc.com [207.102.161.104]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA27275 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:17:21 -0800 Message-ID: <34CBC6B7.2349@ampsc.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:11:52 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: alternative energy and the Code] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------7FB069746CC5" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1517 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7FB069746CC5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For the list, --------------7FB069746CC5 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <34CBC5DC.4431@ampsc.com> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 15:08:12 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kate Warner Subject: Re: GBlist: alternative energy and the Code References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Kate, you don't offer enough to help you much, however, I will still try..... the equipment installed must meet the legislated standard for it's use, and that may include CSA, UL and other organization standards, and if there are none, then there must be a relevant certification that the use of the installed equipment is safe to use, by an accredited engineer of the appropriate discipline. the electrical wiring must be installed according to the applicable electrical code, which allows for certification by an electrical engineer and other applicable professionally designated approving authority. err, why do you say the work was not in compliance with the electrical code? If it is not safe to use, nothing will help you gain approvals. Best regards, Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 Kate Warner wrote: > > Dear Greenbuilders- > There are now two instances on my island of people building houses that are > to be powered with PV panels and generators (I am the architect of one) and > there is trouble with the electrical inspectors. They do not wish to give > final sign-offs to these houses because they are not wired to meet the > Code. Without their signature, no C.O's can be issued and financing > becomes an issue. One building inspector is sympathetic, one is not and it > remains to be seen how the board of the state Electrical Code will handle > this. > > Has anyone had any experience with how to deal with this? > > Thank you, > > Kate Warner > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ --------------7FB069746CC5-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 25 21:33:48 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA05200 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:33:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA09770 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:32:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA04689; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:24:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:20:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA04415 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:19:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from italy.it.earthlink.net (italy-c.it.earthlink.net [204.250.46.18]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA04411 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:19:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from seth.waonline.com (1Cust235.tnt6.sfo3.da.uu.net [153.37.17.235]) by italy.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA29487 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:25:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34CBF443.3A1C@earthlink.net> Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:26:11 -0800 From: David Melchert Reply-To: dmelchert@earthlink.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NSCP (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: ECONOMICS & ENVIRONMENT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1518 Greenbuilders: Continuing a facinating thread...I agree that the conversation has wandered far and wide, and that this is not off the subject either. This post is in keeping with that falvor, I promise. There have been a bewildering array of perspectives, both understandable and otherwise, both respectful and pointed, some humorous and some dry, but all attempting to penetrate a nagging and central predicament that haunts us all: how to live and build sustainably in a system which seems inherently unsustainable. To quote one of you (sorry, I'm not keeping track of who wrote it): >I seem to end my reading of so many of these evil economics posts with >the invariable feeling that the rest of the message got cut off. I'm >left with this void, thinking that the "Therefore........., or "The >alternative would be........, or "Clearly, we can change the paradigm >by...........portion was lost. I don't understand what is being proposed >as the solution to this horrid system or what alternate system is going >to replace it. I would respond, "Precisely the point!" We don't know...perhaps the reason the answer eludes us is that we have to stretch in ways we don't yet realise. A few things come to mind. I am the son of an artist...grew up in Berkeley in 60's. Some of the most bizarre and unusual characters and ideas would walk through our doors. I must say that many if not most were somehow dead ends, but there was something vital about always trying to look at things from a different perspective. Ever see Leonardo daVinci's notebooks? Astounding works, with little doodles on helicopoters, expolding worlds, calculations and formula's, and of course graceful sketches of figures and faces. The guy seemed to be centuries ahead of his time. For every daVinci there maust have been hundreds of dead ends. Some of the gripes I've read in this thread remind of Jesse Helme's critiques of the NEA, Maplethorpe and all. Yes, by design some of this artistic stuff is dead end, but it is absolutely vital that it not only be allowed, but that it flourish. It's the same thinking behind the Endangered Species Act...it is the obscure little subspecies and remote populations that are the critical cauldrons for evolution and the continuation of life, a point that seems to be missed by most politcal discussion on the law. Contemptuous posts on compostable building technologies seem to miss this vital point on searching for the alternatives that could revolutionize or building industry. And for the bewildering silences at the end of the "anti-system" diatribes? Somewhere in the works of the Nader Khalili's and the writings of the Paul Hawkens' and Noam Chompski's, the discords and discourses on this list, there will eake out some revolutionary idea. Ever have the challenge of trying to reconcile some design conflicts on the job? Neither the architect nor builder nor homeowner seem able to come up with the solution, and then in walks someone's teenage kid or grandmother, and they come up effortlessly with a most elegant and workable solution. So our answers here may come from an equally obscure source. I am grateful for the recent post relaying some ideas in Business Ethics: Do stockholders own employees? In our current system, yes. What if, when > companies were sold, employees said, "We're not going"? The company would > be devalued. The buyer would only be getting lifeless assets - files no > one can find, machines no one can run, customers no one has heard of. What > if this happened at even one major company? she asks. What tremors would > go through boardrooms nationwide? We might find ourselves recalling Gandhi > confronting the British overlords, or Lincoln facing off with slaveholders. > And we might look back on the era of "socially responsible business" as the > ripple before the wave. > > Maybe that's what's next. What a brilliant idea. Could be a dead end - some here have already dismissed it - but then again... I will end with a repetition that I believe the root of our currect crisis is a spiritual one, whereby we are acting out our belief that we are no more than physical beings with physical needs, and that fulfillment comes largely from satisfying desires. It leaves a large portion of humanity scrambling for survival, while our great efficient-allocation-of-resources machine is exhausting the earth's carrying capacity tending to the wealthy's ersatz desires, devoid of enduring value. For myself, I answer the "...and therefore the answer is..." question with this: the answer already exists, and each of us is not only able to find it, but each of us HAS to find it...our survival depends on it. I believe it has to do with rediscovering that Creation is sacred, not just as a human value, but intrinsically so. I don't know what form it will take, but I am absolutely certain that it will take birth if we keep looking and searching. Seth Melchert ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Jan 25 21:52:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA05334 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:52:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA13997 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:51:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05501; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:45:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:41:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05128 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:41:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05124 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:41:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.23] (blf23.acadia.net [205.217.217.23]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA06038 for ; Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:47:08 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 21:45:09 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: RE: PV and the Code Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1519 Kate Warner wrote: >Dear Greenbuilders- >There are now two instances on my island of people building houses that >are to be powered with PV panels and generators (I am the architect of >one) and there is trouble with the electrical inspectors. They do not wish >to give final sign-offs to these houses because they are not wired to meet >the Code. Without their signature, no C.O's can be issued and financing >becomes an issue. One building inspector is sympathetic, one is not and it >remains to be seen how the board of the state Electrical Code will handle >this. end of quote. Kate, To the best of my knowledge, Article 690 of the National Electrical Code covers photvoltaic systems (possibly all independent power systems). There are some very good people in Maine who might be able to advise you. One is Peter Talmadge at Talmadge Engineering in Kennebunkport. (Don't have his phone number handy.) The others are Bill Behrens and Pat Coons of the Green Store in Belfast, (207) 338-4045. Good luck. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 03:52:48 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA09527 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 03:52:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA28742 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 03:51:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA15133; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 03:45:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 03:40:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA14923 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 03:40:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from avalon.ampsc.com (avalon.ampsc.com [207.102.161.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id DAA14919 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 03:40:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from voyager.ampsc.com (voyager.ampsc.com [207.102.161.112]) by avalon.ampsc.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA05923; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 00:50:47 -0800 Message-ID: <34CC4D0E.723C@ampsc.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 00:45:03 -0800 From: Arjay Reply-To: rjmoore@ampsc.com Organization: R J Moore & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Guy Dauncey CC: GreenBuilding Listserver Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: Eco-industrial Park] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1520 Yes Guy, thanks for the green info, will keep it for reference. Yes, I would like to be included in the Econews list, however, I must caution you, I have been a green non-activist for some time, and my conclusions have not been echoed, to the best of my knowledge. De-densification is the only viable solution, spreading the population out over the vast lands of our planet, putting them closer and in a position to be more aware of the environment upon which we rely so critically. Raise the minium land subdivision sizes, and carry that through out, home room sizes, unit sizes, etc. ie. urban development minimum 1/2 acre, minium home size 1000 sq.ft, for one bedrooms, 1500 sq. ft, for two bedrooms, etc. that reduces the number of allowable occupancies etc. on....on...and on....... Richard. R J Moore & Associates - Building Systems Analysis Indoor Air Environment Specialists Restoration and Remediation Services Suite 312, 290 Regina Avenue, Victoria, BC, CANADA, V8Z 6S6. Email: rjmoore@ampsc.com Telephone & Facsimile:(250) 475 6698 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 07:38:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA12299 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:38:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA06198 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:37:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA19160; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:31:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:27:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA18906 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:27:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA18901 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:27:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA25052 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:32:24 -0500 Message-id: <2021039@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 26 Jan 98 07:38:11 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Fake Slate To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1521 Thanks, Chuck. The Suprador product was a fiber cement "fake slate", and these have indeed not held up well. The Crowe and majstic products are recycled content plastics, including EPDM, and should be immune to freeze-thaw cycling and spalling, which seems to be the failure mode of fiber cement roofs. It looks as though, with good UV resistance, these roofing products may have a long life. When I recommended them, it was as an alternate to asphalt shingles. Slate was about double the cost, too much for these people. I agree with you that some of what a careful consumer purchases may be higher quality than in the 1950s. Particularly in the area of design and function - my backpack and my bicycle and my car both work much better than the equivalent 50s products. But I struggle to just buy a decent toaster oven, that is well made and will work for at least a decade. Why is this so hard? Much of our stuff has shorter lifetimes than equal stuff in the old days. It's not built to last. I have some of my grandfather's tools (he was an electrician) and they appear better made than new stuff. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 07:45:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA12389 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:45:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA07167 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:44:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA19508; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:38:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:34:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA19243 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:34:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA19235 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:34:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA25312 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:39:53 -0500 Message-id: <2021093@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 26 Jan 98 07:45:40 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: roof insulation To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1522 The one house I blower door tested which had a straw clay insulation in the roof was leaking air very significantly through the roof. I wouldn't count on the straw for more than R 1-1/2 per inch, and I'd make certain it was well sealed form both interior air and vent channel air. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 08:43:48 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA13222 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:43:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA17805 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:42:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA21395; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:36:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:31:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA20908 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:30:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA20902; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:30:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from sover.net (usr0a19.burl.sover.net [207.136.198.119]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04018; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:36:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34CC905D.EF1F0B5C@sover.net> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:32:13 -0500 From: Eric Warren X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: strawbale list , GreenBuild List Subject: GBlist: Taos, South-West Co. contacts? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1523 Hi, I posted this request a while back to this list, but I'm gearing up to leave on a cross-country trek and I have a better idea where I'll be now - I'm looking for strawbale/greenbuilding sites, finished products, etc. to visit. I am going to be driving from Albequerque, New Mexico to Taos to Cortez, Colorado Feb. 8-14, then going between Santa Cruz and Berkeley, CA (maybe a little north of there) Feb 15-24th - anybody in those areas have anything going they can show me or ideas for places to visit? I would also be interested in any greenbuilding/strawbale advocacy/educational groups in those areas. I have contacted the Earthship community and Real Goods - anything else? Thanx Eric Warren Ripton, Vermont ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 10:08:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14803 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:08:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA07000 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:07:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26261; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:01:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:57:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25695 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:56:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25685 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:56:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.24] (mke-1-8.binc.net [208.142.229.24]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA16728; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:02:16 -0600 Message-Id: <199801261502.JAA16728@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 04:02:54 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1524 Marc, Thanks for pointing out once again that this is a complicated issue. I'm sorry the implication was drawn that I think "bio-degradable" necessarily means "short-lived". That's not really my point. While I agree that labor and wealth distribution are a bit out of whack right now, labor still has a value, and it always has. It's part of an equation which must be considered wholistically to make building material choices, along with considering the manufacturing process, embodied energy, the impact of extracting the resource, bio-degradability, recycleability, and durability. Chris Koehn ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 10:08:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14805 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:08:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA07001 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:07:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26259; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:01:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:57:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA25716 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:57:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA25710 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:57:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.24] (mke-1-8.binc.net [208.142.229.24]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA16742; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:02:19 -0600 Message-Id: <199801261502.JAA16742@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 04:02:58 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "Jim Roy" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1525 Hi Jim, No. What I'm speaking of is extremely labor intensive methods of building housing. I know alot of folks who get caught up in the whole "I'm building a home from natural materials and it's my life's work" thing, which I fail to see the bigger value in, because no one in this society-or any- can afford to make building a house their life's work. People who lived in mid-evil England didn't thatch roofs for their own edification. They did it because at the time it was the most economically efficient way to do it. The material was cheap, and labor was cheap. But as soon as affordable tile became available, and labor costs began to become an issue, thatching went out of vogue. I don't think anyone will argue that a thatched roof will last longer than a tile one. Or that it's less labor-intensive to install, or maintain. Listen- I love the way thatched roofs look. I think they're great. If you want to do a thatched roof- more power to you. But to propose it as a way to get away from less green options is not economically feasable. And therefore I think Fred's argument follows that it's not particularly wise to tout them as a way to change the world (Fred, please correct me if I'm wrong). You've made a dangerous leap in logic by assuming that I advocate cutting down 300 year old fir trees as an alternative. I don't think anyone on this list believes that's the way to go. But the point is that for a building system to be accepted in any significant way it needs to be low-maintenance and of reasonable cost on the front end, as well as thru it's cycle. I re-assert my point- part of the definition of "green" should be "durable". Another part should be "viable". It's also quite a leap to assume that because we seem to disagree on the practicality of thatched roofs that I am necessarily a proponent of building houses that will only last 100 years or get whacked by the next freeway. dispassionately yours, Chris Koehn ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 10:16:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA14978 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:16:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA08855 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:15:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26838; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:09:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:05:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26560 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:05:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo13.mx.aol.com (imo13.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.167]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA26555 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:05:15 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:09:47 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: straw bales, paradigms and some apologies Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1526 Friends, I want to thank Anna for asking us to share our own stories of how our personal paradigms emerged and are lived. I find personal stories, actions and dreams far more enlightening than detached theories. It is the sum of some four billion personal journeys that will in the end determine whether eight billion or so likely souls will be able to co-exist on this planet in the not too distant future, and whether we might slow our reproduction before we are doomed. I'm going to bore you with some more of my own tale. Our small company built four homes last year. That work occupied about sixty hours of my time out of every week. We built a spec house in a way that would warm the hearts of at least the majority on this list, in a marketplace that doesn't yet share our values. Because I took some risks, out of the hundreds of thousands of dollars that passed through my company coffers, my family got to keep less than I would have by collecting government assistance. I am sure glad that other years have been a little better, but am most grateful for the opportunity to try my best. I never have made as much money trying to build well as I could have either by taking some of the many jobs I have been offered, or by building in a way that unfortunately the vast majority of buildings are built in the world. Anyone building green to get rich is either far wiser than I am, or a complete fool. This year, along with convincing my custom home clients to build as green as I can, I am going to build another environmentally friendly spec house in town, maybe two. Only this time I'll do it more creatively and market them more effectively so that next year I can build three. Eventually I hope to be able to create enough local experience that there might be a demand. I no longer feel I have the right to complain about problems if I am not part of the solution. So I find time to volunteer in town government on the board that plans capital expenditures in new buildings, vehicles, etc. for the town. I hope if I stick it out long enough, perhaps I can make a dent in public awareness through changes in the way we conceive, plan and specify our common investments. I try to fit in being a decent dad to my kids, so that they can grow up to be part of the solutions as well. I hope that those on the list that were offended by some of my comments about straw bales can forgive me for not taking the time to explore their theories and experience well enough but still wanting to understand their perspective better. I apologize for any personal offense any of my comments or my tone may have caused. I do see and very much value the beauty that others see in organic architectural forms. Our family grows beautiful gardens (that I often pee in). I worked for a time in a solar heated, wind electrified geodesic dome and see a lot of value in the example of living lightly that straw bale and thatched homes could perhaps entail. Having been personally very successful in previous government and nonprofit environmental endeavors, I also recognize the value that others can find in those persuits, though it may not have come through in my somewhat rhetorical detergent posting. I was surprised frankly that though many responses were clear and inspiring on the wonderful vision of the organic building solutions which I questioned, the very few responses dealing with the hard facts of the technology didn't appear overly appealing. I refer here specifically to the life span and outrageous costs that were quoted for thatching. Living in the country most of my life and having personally humped thousands of imperfect bales, I wonder and hope to learn if the realities are any more favorable for straw walls, etc. But I don't want the group to rehash old ground and instead will go back in the archives when I find time. I have attached my own dreams to somewhat similar romantic systems and technologies quite a few times. I suppose I am doing it right now as I type. Recognizing that I have only a short human life span in which to act on my ideals, I have learned to be a bit more cautious in choosing where to place my efforts. Having built about 150 sunrooms since the late 1970's, I understand the all too clearly the repercussions of having idealized technological solutions burdened with expectations that they are not appropriate to meet. The lessons we all learned in the sunroom and solar dhw industries of the 70's and 80's would be a valuable topic for this group. Rather than questioning the idealism of others, I perhaps should have engaged my questions of cultural expectations with the example of the sunroom movement/industry that I entered with such idealized expectations only to become hardened by many contradictions of the reality. It would surely seem that we greens have a common memory no longer, and a capacity to learn no greater, than the popular culture which we too often condemn. Being by nature a kind of contentious sort, my reasoning in choosing the topic of straw bales in discussing cultural expectations was to revisit the point Abbie Hoffman made thirty years ago: "Sacred cows make the tastiest meat." The resulting flood of insults seems to prove the point. While I agree wholeheartedly with Seth Melchert's contention that what we lack most in the our materialistic society lies in a spiritual dimension, it also seems to me that we greens have as many sacred cows that are prime for the butcher shop, as any of those folks that might disagree with us." There is an urgency in our global situation that requires an inspiration of radically new popular paradigms. I imagine success in such endeavor coming from speaking to the common dreams that we can find in others that all too often find the bulk of our ideas quite threatening and foreign. I want to thank Rob Harrison, John Salmen, Seth and others for calling me on the tone of my straw bale post, which in hindsight was inappropriate in places. Since the posting I made was intended to be primarily about context, I want mostly to thank Chuck Hinkley, John Abrams, Seth and many others for helping to move our discussions of economics, politics and culture beyond rhetoric. FlameBait Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 10:21:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15097 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:21:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA10208 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:20:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA27270; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:13:47 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:09:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA26885 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:09:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA26877 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:09:41 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 4544 invoked by uid 0); 26 Jan 1998 15:15:13 -0000 Received: from ppp-7.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.200?) (198.175.11.200) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 26 Jan 1998 15:15:13 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:30:13 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: alternative energy and the Code Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1527 Kate, My own house, and a neighbor's that I helped with, both have alternative energy systems: PV combined with micro-hydro with gasoline generators as back-up. I also have about a dozen friends with PV and wind systems that I have examined. My house, and my neighbors' were both required to meet code and a few of the most recent alternative energy sytems around here that I know of have voluntarily been designed to meet code. Most of the older systems never attempted to meet code. In the end, me and my neighbor never did get inspected. It was a complicated political situation involving grants from the New York State Energy Office, and change of governorship. Governor Pataki eliminated the office, and our grant was given to us without the original conditions because the beaurocrats were in a hurry to get out and find new jobs. Anyways, I talked with two local electrical inspectors, and even though they had no experience with alternative energy, they were willing to do the inspections. Also, an electrician who helped us offered to bring in an inspector from out of the area that was familiar with his work and alternative energy if the local inspectors were too overwhelmed with new things. At least in New York, apparently you can choose who is to inspect your hous; you aren't limited to the local inspectors. My conclusion is that with proper advance planning, with experienced alternative energy people providing input, it is not difficult to meet code. Meeting code will also be likely to result in a higher quality system that the users will be able to use with confidence. It may be too late for your current projects, but it definitely is something that requires research and consultation in the early design stages. Perhaps it won't be too expensive to redesign the systems to meet code. I would highly recommend you get a subscription and all the back issues of Home Power Magazine. You can find them on the WWW. They also have a CD ROM of most of their back issues. The magazine has a regular column on meeting code, and generally, is the prime information source on products, systems, and methods. And, I don't know whether they are still active, but the the Taylor's have built and run the Windfarm Museum of alternative energy and agriculture on Martha's Vineyard for many years now. I was an intern with them. You should certainly try consulting with them. They have a wealth of knowledge. Incidentally, the alternative energy houses up here were virtually the only ones not to lose power during the recent devastating ice storm. The rest of my road was out for two weeks, and there are still thousands of homes and farms without electricity for three weeks now. Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 11:38:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16762 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:38:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA02068 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:36:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA01504; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:31:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:25:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA01026 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:25:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA01022 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:25:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA23439 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:31:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 11:31:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from dsy15.vineyard.net(204.17.195.205) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma023427; Mon Jan 26 11:30:55 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: Economy and Environment Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1528 Richard Moore said: >Wrong again, the persistent dilemnas that face all of us are a direct >result of the lack of popular rule through government and the complete >lack of human ethics in the business community. There is not a complete lack of human ethics in the business community, only a preponderance of that lack. I hope at least you and I are testimony to that. Seems important for us to recognize and make such distinctions. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 13:30:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA19085 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:30:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA05842 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:28:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA07372; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:22:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:17:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA06987 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:17:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.172]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA06983 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:17:03 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: from RCMathis1@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id SVFIa11717 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:17:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <1a1b27d0.34ccd334@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:17:12 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: the laundry detergent charrette and dog food... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1529 On the subject of parallels and profits and economics and such... I noted that the data on the laundry detergent charrette (didn't need NEARLY so much as the manufacturer receommended) closely parallels data shared with me about dog food. The "recommended" amounts based on size and weight of dog, is often 3 to 4 times that recommended by the vet.... So even our dogs contribute to our "excesses".... Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 13:41:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA19403 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:41:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA09451 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:40:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA08097; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:34:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:29:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA07653 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:28:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo17.mx.aol.com (imo17.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.174]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA07649 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:28:53 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: from RCMathis1@aol.com by imo17.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id UBOLa17743; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:32:26 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:32:26 EST To: cneurath@northnet.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Dorwin windows Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1530 Chris Neurath wrote << I have found very few American companies that are offering triple pane windows anymore. >> Chris, Why buy the weight of triple pane when you can get (essentially) the same performance from a good low-e, double-paned unit? I realize that in the FAR, FAR north you may want windows with extremely low U-factors (<0.25) but most GOOD double panes at 0.30 to 0.35 are FINE. PLUS, they usually have a variety of solar heat gain performance for building and orientation "tuning". This is usually unavailable with most triple paned units. On another note, I expect that there are SOME severe northern climates where very clear but VERY low U-factor glazings (<0.15) would really pay off. That is why there has been so much research on vaccum glazings and other technologies. But in most of the US we don't need such low U-factors. We usually spendmore $ on cooling.... Chris Mathis MCSquared ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 15:16:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA21803 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:16:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA08525 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:15:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA13574; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:09:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:03:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA13086 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:03:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA13080 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:03:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.110.113] (usrts2-rgport49.port.net [207.237.110.113]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA09302 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:08:38 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801262008.PAA09302@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: GBlist: Marc R Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 15:08:53 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1531 BTW Marc Welcome back to the list..... its good to be reading your calming, sensible and sometimes humorous reMarcs again! C Dodge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 15:31:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22104 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:31:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA13303 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:30:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14752; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:24:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:19:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA14228 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:19:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin53.mail.aol.com (mrin53.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.163]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA14222 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:19:11 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin53.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA11545 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:24:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:24:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980126152403_-767012731@mrin53> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: straw bales, paradigms and some apologies Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1532 >>I want to thank Rob Harrison, John Salmen, Seth and others for calling me on the tone of my straw bale post<< Just to clarify, I was mainly shocked by the rude _responses_ to Fred's straw bale post. His post, while contentious, wasn't a personal attack. My general point though--under "Re: Conversation"--was to call into question the technological fundamentalism of one-idea green designers & builders, and suggest that by supporting each other, we all can benefit. I wonder if some of the issue might be that this is a national (global?) listserv, and many of these issues are local. What makes total sense one bioregion may be a horrible idea in another. Rob Harrison Editor, _EcoBuilding Times_ *** Robert Harrison Architects http://members.aol.com/rhdesign --lyrical sustainable design-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 15:45:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22416 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:45:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA17240 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:43:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16228; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:38:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:32:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15499 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:32:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from cerberus.nga.com (root@nga.com [198.68.22.250]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA15483 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:32:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from nga.nga.com (nga [192.168.1.10]) by cerberus.nga.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA20843; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:37:30 -0800 Received: by nga.nga.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13131; Mon, 26 Jan 98 12:37:32 PST Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 12:37:32 PST From: jim@nga.com (Jim Roy) Message-Id: <9801262037.AA13131@nga.nga.com> To: jim@nga.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, crkoehn@mailbag.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1533 > From crkoehn@mailbag.com Mon Jan 26 07:02:32 1998 > Hi Jim, > > No. What I'm speaking of is extremely labor intensive methods of building > housing. I know alot of folks who get caught up in the whole "I'm > building a home from natural materials and it's my life's work" thing, > which I fail to see the bigger value in, because no one in this > society-or any- can afford to make building a house their life's work. Perhaps the bigger value is in what they learn, or what we learn from them. There is value in the example they set, of happyness from a job well done rather than thru consumpiton. > People who lived in mid-evil England didn't thatch roofs for their own > edification. They did it because at the time it was the most economically > efficient way to do it. The material was cheap, and labor was cheap. But > as soon as affordable tile became available, and labor costs began to > become an issue, thatching went out of vogue. Tile is heavy and has to be fired, right? That means high energy costs to make it & move it. It also means hurkery buildings to hold it up. WHY did it become "economically efficient" for thatch to go "out of vogue" > I don't think anyone will > argue that a thatched roof will last longer than a tile one. Or that it's > less labor-intensive to install, or maintain. > Not me. The highest number I'v seen for thatch is 60 years and I think that's probably a real stretch. > Listen- I love the way thatched roofs look. I think they're great. If > you want to do a thatched roof- more power to you. But to propose it as a > way to get away from less green options is not economically feasable. And > therefore I think Fred's argument follows that it's not particularly wise > to tout them as a way to change the world (Fred, please correct me if I'm > wrong). > Thatch is a VERY green roofing option. It replaces environmentally costly energy inputs with local labor. It produces no waste. It illustrates our connection to the natural, carbohydrate based economy which supports us. While certainly not universally applicable, touting it where it is a reasonable choice seems to me a very good way to change the world. > You've made a dangerous leap in logic by assuming that I advocate cutting > down 300 year old fir trees as an alternative. I don't think anyone on > this list believes that's the way to go. Sorry, No such assumption intended. > But the point is that for a > building system to be accepted in any significant way it needs to be > low-maintenance and of reasonable cost on the front end, as well as thru > it's cycle. I re-assert my point- part of the definition of > "green" should be "durable". Another part should be "viable". Durable is good :-) But let's remember that viable comes from the same root as alive. Economic calculations of cost largely ignore biological factors, so to constrain "green" techniques to those which pass economic muster is to give up without a fight. > It's also quite a leap to assume that because we seem to disagree on the > practicality of thatched roofs that I am necessarily a proponent of > building houses that will only last 100 years or get whacked by the next > freeway. Again, no slur intended. Just observing that this is what happenes. We probably don't really dissagree very much. You are out to solve real problems, and you argue that pushing for radical design alternatives may hinder that effort. Point well taken. We desperately need to build better dwellings, and most of them will not have thatch roofs. On the other hand, dis-ing the greenest of techniques on economic grounds helps perpetuate the use of the flawed cost metric that got us into this mess in the first place. It's a real dilema. Most of our high tech building materials are very energy intensive. Much of the cost of that energy is not refelected in the price of the product. Ditto the social costs associated with mass production and it's inherent concentration of wealth. Yet, they work well and last a long time so maybe we come out ahead anyway. This is the question ( wrt passive annual heat storage ) that got me into this list in the first place. Ps. Just read FlameBait Fred's last post. Makes me feel a little sheepish about the philosophical turf defending I have been doing here. Please see this an attempt to help focus the debate, not question anyones idealism. Jim Roy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 15:45:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22422 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:45:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA17304 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:43:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA16256; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:38:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:32:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA15516 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:32:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from geocities.com (mail6.geocities.com [209.1.224.26]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA15506 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:32:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from tp (nas-tn13-61.ix.netcom.com [207.223.182.189]) by geocities.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA03918 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 12:37:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980126143654.0305c434@mail.geocities.com> X-Sender: 8774@mail.geocities.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:36:54 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Dan Willis <8774@geocities.com> Subject: GBlist: Dirty Socks Syndrome Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1534 Hello, I'm new to this list. I was wondering if anyone has had experience in dealing with the "dirty socks syndrome"- a foul odor which is emitted by some heat pumps, primarily during the defrost cycle. In case you're wondering, my reason for posting to this group is that part of the explanation that I've been given for the phenomenon is that modern "tight" buildings and indoor pollutants are to blame for the problem. I haven't been presented with any convincing proof of this- to me it seems like a way that the HVAC manufacturers try to get off the hook and say "it's not our problem." For the sake of brevity, I'll end here. My heat pump experience is detailed on my web site: http://pw1.netcom.com/~dvwillis thanks in advance, Dan Willis ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 17:00:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA23931 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA12091 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:59:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA21541; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:53:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:48:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA20967 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20959 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:47:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (se10.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.43]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA09851 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:53:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34CD04B6.A63@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:48:38 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: S.I. Hyakawa (sp?) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1535 It occurs to me while reading Jim Roy's last post, when he says "On the other hand, dis-ing the greenest of techniques on economic grounds helps perpetuate the use of the flawed cost metric that got us into this mess in the first place.", that "Green' is an undifferentiated commodity here. Like all human interaction, the problem of laguage becomes at once the medium and the problem, we have no working definition of the term "Green". At least, none that is universally accepted here. I would love to hear everyones two sentence definition of the term, no run on sentences, please. Perhaps if we can give the central issue some form or shape, we can better communicate with one another. Please no essays, this is supposed to be clarifing, not self ingratiating. All answers will be graded on a curve and spelling doesn't count. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 21:16:30 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA29598 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:16:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA25910 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:15:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA04014; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:09:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:05:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA03616 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:04:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.172]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA03612 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:04:28 -0500 (EST) From: IMSHAPIRO Message-ID: <5ffe670b.34cd4013@aol.com> Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:59:17 EST To: 8774@geocities.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Dirty Socks Syndrome Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1536 There was a question like this recently on the list, I believe. So please excuse the following answer if it is also deja vu. We recently completed a study of "dirty sock syndrome" in a building with two different groups of heat pumps. One group had the odor, the other did not. The group which had the odor had condensate pans which were not tilted, had the drain connection coming out the side (in other words could not drain fully), and were made out of sheet metal (e.g. flat). We were able to pour 1 quart of water into these condensate pans (when dry) before any water started to drain. In other words, they were probably wet all summer long, not draining fully between cooling cycles. The group that did not have the odor have molded plastic pans, which slope down toward a condensate drain which is located in the bottom of the pan. These pans drain fully. Ian Ian Shapiro, PE Taitem Engineering 963 Comfort Road Spencer, NY 14883 607 277 1118 607 277 2119 FAX IMSHAPIRO@AOL.COM "Technology As If The Earth Mattered" ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 21:38:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA01108 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:38:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA01906 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:35:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA05262; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:30:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:25:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA04838 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:25:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from cerberus.nga.com (root@nga.com [198.68.22.250]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA04828 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:25:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from nga.nga.com (nga [192.168.1.10]) by cerberus.nga.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id SAA21743; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:30:10 -0800 Received: by nga.nga.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14370; Mon, 26 Jan 98 18:30:14 PST Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 18:30:14 PST From: jim@nga.com (Jim Roy) Message-Id: <9801270230.AA14370@nga.nga.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ashcreek@dreamscape.com Subject: Re: GBlist: S.I. Hyakawa (sp?) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1537 > From: Chuck Hinckley > > It occurs to me while reading Jim Roy's last post, when he says "On the > other hand, dis-ing the greenest of techniques on economic grounds > helps perpetuate the use of the flawed cost metric that got us into this > mess in the first place.", that "Green' is an undifferentiated commodity > here. An undifferentiated commodity? If that's what I meant, it's news to me :-) > Like all human interaction, the problem of laguage becomes at once > the medium and the problem, we have no working definition of the term > "Green". At least, none that is universally accepted here. I would love > to hear everyones two sentence definition of the term Me too. What a great idea. When I say green, I'm thinking in the context of the carbohydrate economy. Green plants store the sun's energy in carbohydrate compounds and all other life forms (very nearly) use that stored energy with varying effeciency for their own purposes, one after another in the great food web of life, 'till it's all lost back to entropy. Human activity is "green" to the extent that we avoid disrupting or degrading the web, or reducing it's efficiency by our intervention. Oops. 3 sentences, but that's as close as I can get. BTW what's this have to do with S.I.Hyakawa(sp?) Jim Roy > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 21:43:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA01232 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:43:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA03848 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:42:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA06149; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:32:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA05496 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:32:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA05492 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:32:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-39.topher.net [208.199.183.245]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA02168 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:29:09 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801270229.UAA02168@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: Subject: GBlist: House Tips Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 20:38:38 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1538 I'm working with a local architect (Dallas, TX) on a passive solar design for a home in Ripley, Maine. My climatological experience is only in the south, so I would appreciate a little info from any folks from the northeast. I've downloaded climate data such as temps, humidity, avg cloud cover, degree days, etc. but I mainly need the intangibles. How many days in a row can clouds linger in the winter? What is the lowest high/low temp over a 2 day period? Any local experience you could relay would be helpful. The home owner wants to use a passive solar, cinder block under slab design as shown in the book "The Passive Solar House" by James Kachadorian. Does anyone have any experience with this type design? It looks pretty workable, although I have similar concerns to others recently posted about this thermal cavity becoming a place for dust/dirt/mold/vermin/etc. Any wisdom is appreciated. Paul Westbrook ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 23:17:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03154 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:17:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA29767 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:15:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10304; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:10:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:05:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA09771 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:05:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA09758; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:05:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA157484; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:09:33 -0700 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:09:33 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Cruickshank Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , "'\"strawbale\"'" Subject: GBlist: composting toilets as back-up heater & worms In-Reply-To: <199801261948_MC2-30C2-51A7@compuserve.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1539 Further to the on-going thread on "composting toilets", I would like to use my waterless composting toilet as my backup heating system in our home and office. It is centrally located in the house and can easily be monitored re: temperature and humidity. How can I naturally raise the temperature up to the thermopilic range (ie. above 40 dC)? If I cannot do the above, I would like to be able to remove heat from the exhaust stack vent by the use of an air-to-water heat exchanger or heat pump (ie. from Vaughn?). Marc Rosenbaum thinks this would work. If I cannot use my composting toilet as back-up heater (realizing this will cool down my composting toilet), I would like to get the right worms to help aerate and digest my compost pile. Does anyone have the Spring & Summer 1995 articles from "Worm Digest" on vermicomposting of human waste? I would like to read those articles. Does anyone have their e-mail address? Does anyone have any useful information? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Jan 26 23:38:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA03497 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:38:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA05709 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:36:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA11394; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:31:15 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:27:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA11095 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:27:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA11091 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-41.topher.net [208.199.183.247]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA06202; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:24:21 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:24:21 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801270424.WAA06202@mail.topher.net> X-Sender: ewestbrook@mail.topher.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org, ashcreek@dreamscape.com From: Elena Westbrook Subject: Re: GBlist: Building terms dictionary? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1540 Someone on my copyeditors' list asked this question and I thought one of you could help. She's not on this list, so please answer Sarah directly at the @dress shown below. **************** >Can anyone on the list direct me to a guide for architectural and/or >building terms? Does such a beast even exist? > >Cheers > >Sarah Clarry >Product Information Analyst >Masterpack International Pty Ltd >A.C.N. 003 814 999 >Ph +61 2 9937 1300* Fax +61 2 9937 1399 >mailto:sclary@masterpack.com.au ***************** Thanks. We now return you to your regularly scheduled green (plants or money? ) discussion . . . Best Regards, Elena Westbrook, ELS WordWright Communications EWestbrook@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 00:05:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA04002 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 00:05:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA14268 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 00:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA12559; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:58:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:54:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA12217 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:54:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from elbert.interrural.net (elbert.interrural.net [206.115.106.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA12213 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 23:54:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.115.104.53] by elbert.interrural.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37012U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAB179 for ; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:59:53 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Change Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 22:10:08 -0700 From: "Anna J.Jones-Crabtree" To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19980127045823843.AAB179@[206.115.104.53]> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1541 A big thanks to all who have taken the time to answer my question about paradigms. As I get more time I will extract the common messages and repost to the list. At the core of all the discussions/debates that we have been having is really the issue of change. How do we get those big controlling systems as well as the individuals around us to 'see the light and go green'? Well, I certainly don't have the answers but as a result of my research I've gotten to do a lot of reading outside of the engineering, and construction field and can offer this - Change is all about leverage. I'm sure all of you have seen freeze/thaw action at work. An unknowing rock, or piece of concete etc. is minding it's own business and along comes our friend water. Now the rock is stable and immovable, or thinks that he is anyway and his other surrounding rock buddies also think they are immovable and like it that way. But water on the other hand is free flowing and happens to find a wonderful crack in which to thwart the rocks sense of stability. As the nights get colder the water waits and lo and behold he the environment around it allow it to change forms, ever so slightly to ice. Water, unlike the rock believes that the way to see and experience the world isn't through a paradigm of stability and complete structure but rather to accept that the world only operates dynamically. Soon that stable rock has been transformed into several other pieces of rock. Wow! The rock realizes one day, thanks to my friend water, I no longer have to sit in the same place forever! I have the ability to be dynamic also - just at a different time and space scale than my buddy water. I think the great thing about those of us on this list is that we are all very much like water - we want and can see ways to make change in our industry and beyond. However, we must realize that water at the large scale isn't always the same...there are lakes, ponds, rivers, streams, rain, puddles, waterfalls etc. and each one of these types of water is working for change in a different context...because water is adaptable. On the small scale water is the same - H2O. To me change really is the large scale of sustainbility. After all there isn't one right answer to being sustainable. It's totally dependent upon context. Our building technologies which are relevant today to energy efficiency will be a far cry from those in 100 or even 50 years. What works in one part of the world won't in another. Also, like water we will all differ in our approach to this change. At the small scale of sustainability, like water, we are all probably very much the same. We are concerned with future generations of humans and the environment on this earth. It is the combination of the large and small scale which will provide the answers. For me the key has been to remember that common link of values while searching like a mad-woman for those cracks in the rock. This approach has brought me some success. I've written a few publications for internal Forest Service engineering use about building sustainability and given a few well chosen audiences some presentations. I now have people calling me with questions, like I'm supposed to be some sort of expert or something...HA! I don't even have one tenth of one percent of the answers. But I do have some knowledge of where to direct people so they can find their own answers. I also realize the real change is going to have to come in our thinking processes in conjunction with spec'ing recycled materials. A couple non-engineering related reading materials I've found greatly interesting... Deep Change: Discovering the Leader Within - Robert Quinn Discusses how widespread change in organizations and business actually happens. Described through solid case histories. A quick read. To my knowledge the author isn't related to Daniel Quinn of Ishmael. Leadership and the New Science: Learning about Organization from an Orderly Universe - Margaret J. Wheatley Discusses how the ideas behind quantum physics, chaos theory etc. can provide new insightsinto how we organize work,people etc. I'm just an engineer on one side of my brain and a philospher on another... Anna ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 02:05:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id CAA05789 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 02:05:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id CAA11427 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 02:04:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA15777; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 01:58:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 01:54:26 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA15526 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 01:54:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from harborside.com (exim@harborside.com [204.214.110.225]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA15522 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 01:54:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.214.111.193] [204.214.111.193] by harborside.com with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0xx4t3-00070b-00; Mon, 26 Jan 1998 22:52:46 -0800 Subject: GBlist: Re: Thatched roofs Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 22:59:40 -0800 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Steve Hussey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1542 >> People who lived in mid-evil England didn't thatch roofs for their own >> edification. They did it because at the time it was the most economically >> efficient way to do it. The material was cheap, and labor was cheap. But >> as soon as affordable tile became available, and labor costs began to >> become an issue, thatching went out of vogue. > >Tile is heavy and has to be fired, right? That means high energy costs to >make it & move it. It also means hurkery buildings to hold it up. WHY >did it become "economically efficient" for thatch to go "out of vogue" Houses in medieval England had thatch because (as has been pointed out) reeds/grasses for thatching were cheap and labor was cheap. Most thatched houses were built of oak post and beam construction with wattle and daub paneling between the posts. These houses were built to last...and were very solidly built. Thatch is heavy (it's about 2-3 feet thick initially) and new layers are woven on top of the old. I lived in one for a year that had been built in 1145 ad...of course it had been thatched about 40 times since then. As someone else pointed out thatching is very labor intensive and the cost of thatching today is prohibitive. That's why it's dropped out of vogue... In Ireland sod roofs were popular, as sod was common. Churches and noblemen's houses were mostly roofed with slate tiles, hand cut and shipped mostly within a 50-60 mile radius they were cheap, had little embodied energy and lasted several hundred years. Clay tiles became popular much, much later as they could be shaped and made to interlock for better waterproofing. Yes, they have high embodied energy initially but will last several hundred years with little maintenance. It's easy to fall in love with 'green' technologies like thatch because of the romantic aspects, and the apparent lack of embodied energy. But you have to weigh up many factors in sustainable building: Should you roof with a low-tech, friendly solution that requires labor intensive renewal every 20 or so years? Could your time be better spent doing something else? Should you roof with a material with a higher embodied energy that lasts 300 years or more? Personally I really love those cute thatched roofs, and they work well too (for a while, before insect and rodent infestation set in), but I have better and more useful things to do with the time it would take me to thatch a house, As Kermit would say..."it isn't easy being green.." Regards, Steve Hussey ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 07:18:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA10940 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:18:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA05655 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:17:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA22283; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:12:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:07:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA21980 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:07:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.172]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA21976 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:07:29 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain Message-ID: <604f9e23.34cdcf47@aol.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:12:53 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Economy and Environment Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1543 In a message dated 98-01-26 11:33:10 EST, you write: << Richard Moore said: >Wrong again, the persistent dilemnas that face all of us are a direct >result of the lack of popular rule through government and the complete >lack of human ethics in the business community. There is not a complete lack of human ethics in the business community, only a preponderance of that lack. I hope at least you and I are testimony to that. Seems important for us to recognize and make such distinctions. John >> I agree with John. To paint the 'business community' with so broad a brush is simply not accurate. I've worked with people in many large companies and I see much of the same kind of concerns you and I express here and I see real change occuring. Is it as deep as may be needed and as fast? That's a fair question, but in my opinion we need to avoid polarizing and de-humanizing humans. People in business are still people and change is and will happen in the 'business community'. We need to be part of that and see the 'business community' as a community of people. I think this issue is part of the ongoing discussion which seems to have a thread of 'we're green, we know what's right' and 'they're business, they do it wrong and are wrong'. That's design for failure. We can do better. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 09:48:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA14554 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:48:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA10510 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:47:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27098; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:41:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:37:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26556 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:37:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26550 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:37:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id IAA0000021079; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:42:13 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980127144432.006bedec@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:44:32 -0600 To: "Don O'Connor" , greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Re: virus Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1544 The virus warning that many of us are seeing on our screens is a hoax, or so our quite reliable University computer people are telling us.. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 09:48:59 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA14566 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:48:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA10685 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:47:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27161; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:42:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:37:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA26626 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:37:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA26622 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:37:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id IAA0000000535; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:42:11 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980127144427.006ac500@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:44:27 -0600 To: "Jim (James G) Hardwick CPA" From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Re:tankless heaters Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1545 Jim, What tankless water heater do you plan to get? I've had some experience with these and though I'm interested in trying one again, I'll get a different brand than I did before--was a "Valiant"--bought about 12 years ago, I remember the local gas folks pointed out it was 'American' made--think the Aquastar types are worth looking at. Regarding the line that feeds these--ie the gas line, be sure to size it properly. I think mine may have been less efficient than it should have been because the feed line was too smal ie it should have been a 1/2" line. The water was never hot enough even though we had it turned up fully. The water pressure wasn't that great either but then the water saver shower heads are what I like. I also found that it is necessary to locate these as close as possible to where the hot water will be used. There is a real delay in getting the hot water and ours was only 16 feet away. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 10:22:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15418 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:22:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA19619 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:21:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA28827; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:11:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA28521 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:11:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from cyberia.com (cyberia.com [205.160.224.234]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA28516 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:11:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from msheffer.cyberia.com ([208.13.144.24]) by cyberia.com with SMTP (IPAD 2.0) id 7156100 ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:37:16 EST Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980127101104.006a0864@cyberia.com> X-Sender: msheffer@cyberia.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:11:04 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Marcus Sheffer Subject: GBlist: What is Green? In-Reply-To: <199801270454.XAA12233@solstice.crest.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1546 Been a little leary about posting to this list lately. Afraid I'll get attacked by a superior intelect I suppose. Gotta face your fears so I'll give it a shot. Green building to me refers to the process rather than the end result. A green building is one in which the environmental impacts of the decisions made are considered, in equal importance, to cost, quality and availability. >Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:48:38 -0500 >From: Chuck Hinckley >Subject: GBlist: S.I. Hyakawa (sp?) > >It occurs to me while reading Jim Roy's last post, when he says "On the >other hand, dis-ing the greenest of techniques on economic grounds >helps perpetuate the use of the flawed cost metric that got us into this >mess in the first place.", that "Green' is an undifferentiated commodity >here. Like all human interaction, the problem of laguage becomes at once >the medium and the problem, we have no working definition of the term >"Green". At least, none that is universally accepted here. I would love >to hear everyones two sentence definition of the term, no run on >sentences, please. Perhaps if we can give the central issue some form or >shape, we can better communicate with one another. Please no essays, >this is supposed to be clarifing, not self ingratiating. All answers >will be graded on a curve and spelling doesn't count. > >Chuck > ===================================================================== Marcus Sheffer Energy and Green Building Consulting Services Energy Opportunities Voice: 717-292-2636 1200 East Camping Area Road Fax: 717-292-0585 Wellsville, PA 17365-9783 Email: msheffer@cyberia.com ===================================================================== ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 10:51:17 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16475 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:51:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA28051 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:49:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA00617; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:44:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:39:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29703 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:39:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29697 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:39:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA05644 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:45:07 -0500 Message-id: <2036571@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 27 Jan 98 10:50:54 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: composting toilets as back-up heater & worms To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1547 --- You wrote: If I cannot do the above, I would like to be able to remove heat from the exhaust stack vent by the use of an air-to-water heat exchanger or heat pump (ie. from Vaughn?). Marc Rosenbaum thinks this would work. --- end of quoted material --- I wouldn't take this as a recommendation for any idea. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 10:54:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16570 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:54:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA28941 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:52:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01213; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:47:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:41:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29938 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:41:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29908 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:41:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.22] (mke-1-6.binc.net [208.142.229.22]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA11601; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:46:41 -0600 Message-Id: <199801271546.JAA11601@glacier.binc.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Straw houses and cultural expectations Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 04:47:20 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "Jim Roy" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1548 Hi Jim, Thanks for your well thought out response. I like your position on thatch, it's biological honesty, and the element of local labor. I've responded to Mike Carter on this subject with a discussion of how homes are built in Germany. There I believe folks are quite a bit ahead of us in terms of thinking about longevity and "greenness". I personally think we can learn alot from them. Interestingly, Germany, in addition to the low countries and the U.K., is the birthplace of thatch. I know of no new thatching work there excepting renovations and museum work, but I haven't been back there in nearly two years. It sure would be interesting to have a green rating system, whereby a numerical value could be assigned to a material, with all of these factors taken into consideration. Tho I doubt all of us could ever agree on how to assign values..and we'd have to have a different chart for every region. I personally think it's okay to use fired clay tile roofs, since the energy used (embodied energy) is ammortized over an extremely long product life-cycle. I place a higher value on labor, thinking that it could elsewhere be more productively used than for home repair. I guess as a builder I get enough hammer swinging in my life to ever consider it a fun avocation. And I think the way to immediately begin to change things is to offer alternatives which are acceptable to a significant segment of the marketplace, no matter how screwed up we think the marketplace has become. Best, Chris Koehn Top Ridge Homes ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 10:54:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16579 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:54:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA29007 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:53:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01246; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:47:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:42:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29978 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29966 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:41:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA05808 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:46:55 -0500 Message-id: <2036598@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 27 Jan 98 10:52:41 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: composting toilets as back-up heater & worms To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1549 --- You wrote: If I cannot do the above, I would like to be able to remove heat from the exhaust stack vent by the use of an air-to-water heat exchanger or heat pump (ie. from Vaughn?). Marc Rosenbaum thinks this would work. --- end of quoted material --- And in fact, it has worked for several years at the Wampanaog Tribal Headquarters in Gay Head, MA. But I did this because I had need of a DHW system also, and the need for a small amount of cooling/dehumidification for the office services room (copier, fax, paper storage, etc.) Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 10:54:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16589 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:54:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA29041 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:53:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01292; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:47:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:42:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA29950 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:41:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA29893; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:41:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA21199; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:46:26 -0800 Message-ID: <34CE005C.221531A9@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 07:42:20 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: John Cruickshank , GreenBuilding Listserver , "'\"strawbale\"'" Subject: Re: GBlist: composting toilets as back-up heater & worms References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1550 Is there exhaust air that can be used as the supply for the composting toilet. If so you would be able to maintain an adequate and consistent temp. and flow through the pile (65-70) to ensure composting in the basic range. The exhaust flow through the pipe would have to be continuous and at a rate to ensure continuous building exhaust. This flow would certainly be sufficient for the composter but may be too much i.e. may cool the pile. I would also worry about the effect of quality of air on the condenser or exchange element. The problem with wanting to range the temperature for pasteurization is that you have to ensure that it is complete through the material - which would involve segregating the material from incoming and some method of distribution through. Solar treatment would seem the only energy efficient way of doing it, as a secondary treatment. I think capturing transferring heat from the composter through insulated mass (concrete vault) may be a simpler method. Perhaps using embedded water as a preheat for hw. One of the sites for composting toilets is for one using vermiculture. Don't have the url handy - check the City Farmer site. I'll try finding it later. Best John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Further to the on-going thread on "composting toilets", I would like to > use my waterless composting toilet as my backup heating > system in our home and office. It is centrally located in the house and can > easily be monitored re: temperature and humidity. How can I naturally > raise the temperature up to the thermopilic range (ie. above 40 dC)? > > If I cannot do the above, I would like to be able to remove heat from the > exhaust stack vent by the use of an air-to-water heat exchanger or heat > pump (ie. from Vaughn?). Marc Rosenbaum thinks this would work. > > If I cannot use my composting toilet as back-up heater (realizing this will > cool down my composting toilet), I would like to get the right worms to > help aerate and digest my compost pile. Does anyone have the Spring & > Summer 1995 articles from "Worm Digest" on vermicomposting of human waste? > I would like to read those articles. Does anyone have their e-mail address? > Does anyone have any useful information? > > Jorg Ostrowski > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 10:54:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16598 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:54:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA29105 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:53:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA01372; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:47:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:42:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA00114 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:42:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA00084 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:42:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.22] (mke-1-6.binc.net [208.142.229.22]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id JAA11572; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:46:36 -0600 Message-Id: <199801271546.JAA11572@glacier.binc.net> Subject: GBlist: Re: Straw houses and cultural expectations Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 04:47:16 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "Mike Carter" , "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1551 Mike, A few months ago I made the argument on the list that a 30 year mortgage is a joke. A home's lifespan is way more than 30 years- At least it should be. So why should we finish paying for them in 30 years? I've spent some time living and working in Germany. There the average mortgage is 100 years. Average costs per square foot are $200+. Homes are built to last millenia. Mortgages are passed down from generation to generation. This makes sense to me, and seems to me a good use of materials and money. German people are far less likely to sell their homes at the drop of a hat, and as a consequence are much less mobile as a society. This fosters an attitude of taking care of the investment, and being sure your children's- and your childrens' children's- investment is maintained. Much more care and thought is put into the process, from siting a home to selecting materials for it. I have a cousin in Germany who built his own home a few years ago. His attitude, like most Germans, was that of wanting to use the most durable, least maintenance-intensive materials available. All of his exterior and interior walls are masonry, as are his floors. He has a few large glulam purlins in the roof which carry a built-up roof system with a tile roof on top. His windows and doors could stand up to use in a sub-marine. This is typical of German residential construction. He spent his sweat-equity time crafting hand-made doors, cabinets, and trim. I very much respect this approach. I feel that even though he may not be using the "greenest" materials available, they will be in service a very long time. This reduces the waste stream, reduces the burden of manufacturing replacement components, and lets him spend time with his kids and his business (not watching tv, etc etc)- and not wasted maintaining his home. I think it should be our mission (in part, at least) to not discourage building homes like this- but to make equally durable, green materials more viable, and part of the way we build. If I've gotten away from my initial point, I apologize. Let me re-state it: Spending time crafting a home is a wonderful thing- especially if it's your own. But it doesn't make sense to me to spend time using materials which are "green" simply for their own sake, unless in addition to "greenness' they offer durability and life-cycle cost advantages. For good or for bad, green materials simply will not take hold at a societal level unless and until they can compete with non-green materials on more than just the extremely narrowly defined criterion of being "natural". Best, Chris Koehn Top Ridge Homes ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 11:30:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17741 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:30:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA09607 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:29:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04155; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:19:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA03801 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from us.teltech.com (us.teltech.com [198.174.236.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA03795 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:19:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mimegate.gen.teltech.com (mimegate.gen.teltech.com [198.174.238.190]) by us.teltech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA30417 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:23:57 -0600 Received: from ccMail by mimegate.gen.teltech.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 00058B03; Tue, 27 Jan 98 10:13:24 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:23:15 -0600 Message-ID: <00058B03.1762@us.teltech.com> From: PPierquet@us.teltech.com (Patrick Pierquet) Subject: GBlist: Re: strawbales, paradigms etc To: greenbuilding@crest.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; name="RFC822 message headers" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part Content-Disposition: inline; filename="RFC822 message headers" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1552 Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 15:24:03 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Subject: Re: GBlist: straw bales, paradigms and some apologies Just to clarify, I was mainly shocked by the rude _responses_ to Fred's straw bale post. His post, while contentious, wasn't a personal attack. My general point though--under "Re: Conversation"--was to call into question the technological fundamentalism of one-idea green designers & builders, and suggest that by supporting each other, we all can benefit. I wonder if some of the issue might be that this is a national (global?) listserv, and many of these issues are local. What makes total sense one bioregion may be a horrible idea in another. Rob Harrison Editor, _EcoBuilding Times_ Rob: This is an interesting point, and one that building scientists have been trying to point out for years. My own personal experience: when I was heavily involved in the early strawbale discussion lists, I tried to point out that, while this technology seems to "work" in the semi-arid Great Plains and Southwest, there are ample reasons to suspect it is not appropriate for the more humid/rainy eastern US. I was heavily "flamed" and ridiculed for these statements, even when I supported my views with references to previous research on straw decomposition, the hazards of wind-driven rain being transported through stucco cracks, the lack of any weather barrier between the stucco and straw, etc. I think part of the explanation is because some people approach the idea of "green construction" from an emotional, rather than scientific, standpoint. They become almost "romantically" involved with, for example, thatching, and like all romances, it blinds us to the truth. - Patrick Pierquet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 15:01:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA21753 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:01:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA29370 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:00:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA16154; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:50:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15564 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:49:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from radiks.net (root@sr.radiks.net [205.138.126.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15558 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:49:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from radiks.net (pc-7AB-086.omhq.uprr.com [167.132.89.86]) by radiks.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24867; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:55:03 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34CE3B7E.3010543E@radiks.net> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:54:38 -0600 From: Tom Berthold X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: Bill Blackwell , Robert Dodd , Adam Dodd Subject: GBlist: Woodfired Hot Tub Thermal Mass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1553 Greetings Fellow Listers, I've been toying with a concept that I thought I might share with the list. Most of you are already familiar with the wood-fired masonry stove concept. I've heard nothing but good comments concerning its efficiency, ease of use, and comfort as a home heating method. Well, this got me to thinking about applying a similar concept which, instead brick or stone as the thermal mass, would use water. Many of you have probably heard of the Snorkel (tm) hot tub - essentially a hot tub that is heated by a wood stove. It would seem there should be a way to modify something like this to allow a dual function to the unit - As a conventional hot tub and also as a thermal battery. Like the masonry heater, it could use scrap wood to "charge" the mass with a fast, hot, clean burning fire, and then discharge the stored thermal energy over a six to ten hour period. A few of technical issues would need to be addressed: 1) Steam release and subsequent humidity levels need to be contained and controlled. This should be fairly easily resolved with a tight sealing cover on the unit. 2) Need to be able to regulate the rate at which the heat energy is transfered from the water tank to the dwelling. For example if the tank is highly insulated, the transfer could be too slow. If the tank were made of uninsulated steel however the heat transfer might be too fast. Bottom line is there needs to be a way to regulate the heat transfer, maybe even thermostatically controlled. Perhaps an insulating sleeve around the tank could be raised or lowered to accomodate changing heating needs. Any ideas? 3) The water would need to be conditioned to filter particulates and prevent bacterial build up. This should be similar to a conventional hot tub, but the associated energy and material costs to keep the water properly conditioned must be factored in to determine the overall cost effectiveness/environmental friendliness of the unit. (I've never owned a hot tub so I don't know what costs are entailed by water conditioning.) If these issues could be resolved this should be a great set up. A hot tub to warm your bones on a wintery day, *and* a cost efficient, off the grid solution to home heating requirements. Has anyone heard of a system like this either commercially available or custom engineered? Any other issues I should be aware of before moving forward with something like this? Thanks, Tom Berthold ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 15:01:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA21758 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:01:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA29393 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:00:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA16152; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:50:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15657 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:50:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15648 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:50:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA24730 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:56:21 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 27 Jan 1998 11:47:33 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: GERMAN MORTGAGES To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id OAA15650 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1554 Chris-- IÕm intrigued with the German (100 year) mortgage system you mentioned. I donÕt know that one could easily change our standard 30 (or 15) year system, or that one culture can adopt piecemeal the customs of another, but, still, itÕs intriguing, and certainly worth talking about. I assume the $200 PSF reflects paying more for good materials and craftmanship? (If the Germans have maintained a respect for their building craftsmen, IÕd like to know how; I always--of course--blame the developers for killing craftsmanship in our country, although if they did, we let Ôum.) Are there other elements of the design/construction procedure over there we should consider? Out of curiosity, I took your $200 PSF into the mortgage calculator that came with our computer (a Clarisworks program; though I found there are lots of online mortgage calculators available, if anyoneÕs interested.). For a $300,000 mortgage--1,500 SF @ $200 PSF, @ 7.5%--a very odd thing happens when you go above 30 years. The monthly payment drops very little and very slowly. My calculator wouldnÕt accept a mortgage beyond 90 years, for which the monthly payment was $1,877; on a 30 year, it was $2,098. Then I tried 4% interest, where the monthly payment difference was greater ($1,028 vs. $1,432). So, do the Germans have lower interest rates, and/or different ways of structuring their mortgages? I tend to think that anyone here would faint if a banker suggested a 100 year mortgage. Unless, I guess, the all-important monthly payment were significantly lower. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 15:49:30 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA22881 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:49:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA13566 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:48:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA19138; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:42:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:38:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA18746 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:38:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA18738 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:38:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sc12.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.205]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA22652 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:43:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34CE45EB.E05@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:39:07 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Woodfired hot tub Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1555 Tom wrote:> 2) Need to be able to regulate the rate at which the heat energy is > transfered from the water tank to the dwelling. Why not use a thermostatically controlled, circulating pump to distribute the needed heat through radiators, from a super insulated storage tank. Oughta work. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 16:58:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA24682 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:58:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA04922 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:56:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA22743; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:51:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:47:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA22384 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:47:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA22378 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:47:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.105.173] (usrts2p173.port.net [207.237.105.173]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA29768; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:52:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801272152.QAA29768@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Woodfired Hot Tub Thermal Mass Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 16:52:47 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Tom Berthold" , "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1556 >It would seem >there should be a way to modify something like this to allow a dual >function to the unit Bingo!!! I love it! I smell a whole new heat source here. Nice work TOM! The first image that came to my mind after reading your most excellent post was to make the 'Berthold Tub Boiler' part of a radiant floor loop with a circulator. A water-to water heat exchange would probably be desired to keep the hot tub water isolated from the cirulating heating water. Most building codes do not allow using domestic hot water, which the hot tub water would be considered I guess, for radiant floor heating systems because of the possibility of contamination of the potable water in the tub. I would think insulation would be of prime importance for usage in northern latitudes, if your intent was to keep the tub outdoors, as is customary with hot tubs. But as I reread your post though,I think your intent is to have it indoors and just let it radiate heat to the room. Correct? ..........I am proposing having it outdoors for traditional hot tub usage and pumping the heated water or just the heat into the house. What do you think? Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 19:48:44 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA29201 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:48:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA15235 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:47:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01772; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:41:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:37:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01355 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:37:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA01343 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:37:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA05038; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:42:32 -0800 Message-ID: <34CE7DFE.B5F7B3EF@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:38:22 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: [Fwd: that compost issue (a little off topic)] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E472B01B663DC3DA0B2F75EB" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1557 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E472B01B663DC3DA0B2F75EB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm getting distracted as to which discussion group is discussing what and was interested in greenbuilding discussion on this (which was on the SB list) yadayadayada --------------E472B01B663DC3DA0B2F75EB Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <34CE7AF8.6EBBCB44@cow-net.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:25:28 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Straube CC: Winnted , strawbale@crest.org Subject: Re: that compost issue (a little off topic) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Funny the discussion on China just as I just received an article in the mail on nightsoil practices in China (and international G.O.,N.G.O. project attempts at improvement) Very few inhabitants (cities included) are on any sewage system. The standard practice is household buckets emptied into communal latrines - which are emptied and transported to agricultural areas. The guidelines call for 30 day retention for pathogen die off and then the material is surface spread on fields or fish ponds. The 30 day period is seldom observed (something to do with new economic freedoms...and the self-monitoring ethos). In the advent of a higher income sector, sewage systems are being constructed to service the wealthier housing and new commercial devel. Functioning systems are capital intensive so the rudimentary systems being developed are 'non-functioning' and are a growing source of direct water contamination (as phosphorus and nitrogen - though valuable in current Chinese use as fertilizers are pollutants in direct disposal) and the question being investigated is whether a simple improvement in existing technique might end up serving both the environment and the general population better than the development of an sewage system infrastructure. Some of my thoughts in reading this article and wanting to share it: A loss of this conventional practice would create a greater need for 'commercial' fertilizers which currently are in limited use (this is an interesting point compared to our own fetilizer usage and the as yet unknown health/environment and economic ramifications of-). It will also create a need for sophisticated sewage treatment - a process we still do not have good environmental success with and have yet to account for cumulative health/environment and economic ramifications of-). So it would be interesting to compare the two potential or active systems to see which would have the least environmental and/or health effects if the criteria were broadened. Synthetic fetilizer and treatment manuf. and technology are major 'first world' exports so there will be strong economic pressure (of the corporate/ int. monetary kind) for their usage in China. The improvement of the existing techniques would require bureaucratic monitoring and enforcement to improve the health consequences of - which scenario will prevail and which would have the best environmental and social consequences for the general population both in the short term and long term? Be interested in hearing your opinions as to what a greenbuilding perspective on infrastructure development would consist of. A photograph accompanying the article shows faecal sludge being poured on leaf crops. There are no current epidemiological studies relating infectious disease rates in China to nightsoil practices but it is the general and reasonable assumption. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. John Straube wrote: > On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Winnted wrote: > > The number one killer disease category in > > China is parasitic and infectious diseases. Measles is a one of the big ones, > > and I don't remember if sanitation is a factor in measles - my guess is not. > > However, it is also my understanding that they do not include infant and early > > child mortality in the mortality rates. So when you hear about Chinese having > > a long life, remember that this age determination does not take in all the > > children who die from dysentary, measles, cholera? and other similar diseases. > > Whether or not this is due to composting human manure, I don't know. But > > sanitation is a major factor in the rate of infectious and parasitic diseases, > > as well as starvation. > > Thank you Lynne for this one. I did not readily have any facts before me > so I did not want to say anything about the Chinse comment. In my > experience, man, many children and elderly in Asia die from > hygiene-related issues. The Asian countries I have visited are > inhabited by people who are very hygienic -- but when you live in poverty > without access to all the things "awful and terrible" corporations, > goverments and technology has provided, it is hard to stay uninfected. > > I am with the compost folks who wish to use it in their gardens -- by > being careful you can remain healthy. Of ocurse, fruit tress is that > much better. The issue is the probabilities and numbers. the Chinese > infant mortatility rate (1994 numbers) is 52.1 per 1000. This almost ten > times the US rate. Hence, compost is not mentioned since the children are > dying from a whole bunch of other things. Kind of like cancer in the > US. In 1950 people died from other diseases and so cancer was both > misdiagnosed and did not have a chance to set in as often. Now that > people are living longer and not being killed by polio, spansih > influenza, TB, etc., cancer becomes a major killer. (I am sure lifestyle > also plays a role, but not ncessarily that significant). > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > John Straube > Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group > University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg > Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 > UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 > Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 > x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x --------------E472B01B663DC3DA0B2F75EB-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 19:51:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA29266 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:51:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA15866 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:50:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02017; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:44:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:40:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA01594 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:40:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA01586 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:40:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.102] (ub5.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.102]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id TAA01633; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:45:56 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980126143654.0305c434@mail.geocities.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:51:49 -0500 To: Dan Willis <8774@geocities.com> From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: Dirty Socks Syndrome Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1558 Dan wrote asking about the "dirty socks syndrome"- a foul odor which is emitted by >some heat pumps, primarily during the defrost cycle. Dan, In my experience, odors described as "dirty socks" or "lockeroom smell" are the result of anaerobic decompostion by bacteria. Somewhere there is standing water. In the water, bacteria are digesting organic compounds and releasing organic gases. A fan or the stack effect or a piston -like pumping of air masses is transporting the odor from the air above the water to the occupied space. Your job - find the water, the transport mechanism or both and intervene. It sounds like heat pumps are implicated. I'd explore the condensate drain pans, traps and disposal point to see if there are bacteria growing in the pans, the trap is effective or if sewer gas is bypassing the trap. Last but not least, welcome to this list. - Terry Brennan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 20:01:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA29446 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:01:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA18233 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:59:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA02631; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:54:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:50:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA02344 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:50:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from elbert.interrural.net (elbert.interrural.net [206.115.106.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA02340 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:50:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.115.104.29] by elbert.interrural.net (Post.Office MTA v3.1 release PO203a ID# 0-37012U5000L500S0) with SMTP id AAA335; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 17:55:46 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: S.I. Hyakawa (sp?) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 18:05:58 -0700 From: "Anna J.Jones-Crabtree" To: , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19980128005542906.AAA335@[206.115.104.29]> Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1559 > From: Chuck Hinckley >we have no working definition of the term >"Green". At least, none that is universally accepted here. I would love >to hear everyones two sentence definition of the term Having no exact definition of 'green' or 'sustainable' I've found to be a problem in many other arenas besides this list, but here's the definition I like, borrowed from the US DOE Federal Energy Mgmt. Program located at: www.eren.doe.gov/femp/ Green or sustainable building involves three main issues: 1) Efficient use of all resources (energy, water, material, and land) and minimization of waste 2) Conservation of the natural environment,the source of all of our resources 3) Creation of a healthy built environment for existing and future generations ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 20:17:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA00413 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:17:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA23179 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:16:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03480; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:10:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:07:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA03151 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:06:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from cerberus.nga.com (root@nga.com [198.68.22.250]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA03144 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:06:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from nga.nga.com (nga [192.168.1.10]) by cerberus.nga.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA31133; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 17:12:08 -0800 Received: by nga.nga.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29279; Tue, 27 Jan 98 17:12:12 PST Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 17:12:12 PST From: jim@nga.com (Jim Roy) Message-Id: <9801280112.AA29279@nga.nga.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org, crkoehn@mailbag.com Subject: GBlist: Re: Straw houses and cultural expectations Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1560 > From: Chris & Ruth Koehn > If I've gotten away from my initial point, I apologize. Let me re-state > it: Spending time crafting a home is a wonderful thing- especially if > it's your own. But it doesn't make sense to me to spend time using > materials which are "green" simply for their own sake, unless in addition > to "greenness' they offer durability and life-cycle cost advantages. For > good or for bad, green materials simply will not take hold at a societal > level unless and until they can compete with non-green materials on more > than just the extremely narrowly defined criterion of being "natural". Hard to argue with any of this, in so far as the cost advantages are real. The problem comes when the embodied costs of a technology are not reflected in it's price. Then, my life-cycle cost a advantages become your air pollution, my decreased upkeep becomes your increased health risk, and as long as I can ignore it, greener technologies will never look attractive. You're right Kermit, it ain't easy being green. Jim Roy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 22:12:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA02599 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:12:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA22376 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:10:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA08741; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:05:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:00:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08125 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08120 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:00:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sa2-p22.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.22]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA12925 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:06:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34CE9F8A.68B3@dreamscape.com> Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:01:30 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: [Fwd: GBlist: Woodfired hot tub (fwd)] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4251371FB6" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1561 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4251371FB6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm forwarding this for a reader of the list, who can't post directly. Chuck --------------4251371FB6 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from big.seorf.ohiou.edu (aa549@big.seorf.ohiou.edu [132.235.1.252]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA07111 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:35:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from aa549@localhost) by big.seorf.ohiou.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA24749 for ashcreek@dreamscape.com; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:34:44 -0500 (EST) From: Geoffrey Greenfield Message-Id: <199801272134.QAA24749@big.seorf.ohiou.edu> Subject: GBlist: Woodfired hot tub (fwd) To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 16:34:43 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Content-Type: text hi - could you please post this to the list- i can read the list but not post it- thanks. I too am looking at a thermal mass storage system as an excuse to have a hot tub. Even toyed with the idea of a strawbale/ferrocement (with plastic on inside) "experiment" to look at strawbale longevity (talk about wet climate). Luckily- I already have a hydronic slab. I Also have an aquastar and specs from the stateside distributor on making an integrated domestic hotwater/ space heating system (using a surplus conventional water heater in the loop - "mains" water pressure takes care of expansion (no check valves- i am on my own cistern based water system).... anywayz- in hoping to diversify my fuel sources and not pay for propane, i would love to use a snorkle stove, or better yet (cause it is an excuse to have a sauna) a home built wood fired boiler in the loop. The propane would be "last chance" backup... would want solar in there too. All of this is complicatedly possible BUT i dont want to use hot tub water for doing the dishes... The way the aquastar reced system works, the same water is used for all... if i treated the hot tub as the storage tank and had some exchange coils in it for DHW i could take that out of the loop... but still have the problem with the aquastar- want it as make up heat for the dhw and back up for the heating/hot tub... and i want it automatic (no valve turning). now i love a techie fun challenge, but so far cant figure out a way to do this without buying a second aquastar.... so i turn it over to the great minds on the list with the offer of a soak/sauna/warm footed/hot water washed visit to my (active/passive) shangri-la in appalachian ohio for the solution holder! great discussions on the list btw- "green" - actions and attitudes that will foster the evolution we are all involved in; the evolution toward a paradigm and lifestyle that will allow us to survive and thrive as a species. hows that? thanks all- Geoff Greenfield Forwarded message: > From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 15:48:30 1998 > Message-ID: <34CE45EB.E05@dreamscape.com> > Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:39:07 -0500 > From: Chuck Hinckley > Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com > Organization: Ash Creek Design > X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) > MIME-Version: 1.0 > To: greenbuilding@crest.org > Subject: GBlist: Woodfired hot tub > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org > Precedence: bulk > > Tom wrote:> 2) Need to be able to regulate the rate at which the heat > energy is > > transfered from the water tank to the dwelling. > > Why not use a thermostatically controlled, circulating pump to > distribute the needed heat through radiators, from a super insulated > storage tank. Oughta work. > > Chuck Hinckley > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > -- /----\ /----\ / (614) 448-6103 \_/ 16751 Hooper Ridge Road \ ( (800) 686-1093 * Millfield, OH 45761 ) \ / \ / \....without love in the dream it will never come true..../ --------------4251371FB6-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 22:43:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA03913 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:43:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA01610 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:42:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA10464; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:36:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:32:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10205 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:32:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from glacier.binc.net (glacier.binc.net [205.173.176.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10201 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:32:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.142.229.22] (mke-1-6.binc.net [208.142.229.22]) by glacier.binc.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA02093 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:37:48 -0600 Message-Id: <199801280337.VAA02093@glacier.binc.net> Subject: GBlist: Bye for now Date: Tue, 27 Jan 98 16:38:29 -0500 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Chris & Ruth Koehn To: "GB List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1562 Hi Listers, I'm going to take a sabbatical of sorts from the list for a while. I am just swamped with work right now. I also have a one year old who demands my time and destroys my computer if I favor it over him.. I hope to be back in a month or so. I'll be happy to correspond in the meanwhile with anyone who cares to. Best regards, Chris Koehn Top ridge Timber Frame Homes Pewaukee, WI ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 22:57:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA04289 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:57:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA05473 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:55:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA11334; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:50:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:46:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10808 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:46:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10804 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:46:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.6] (blf6.acadia.net [205.217.217.6]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA27927 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:51:31 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:49:30 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: roof insulation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1563 Marc wrote: >The one house I blower door tested which had a straw clay insulation in the >roof was leaking air very significantly through the roof. I wouldn't count on >the straw for more than R 1-1/2 per inch, and I'd make certain it was well >sealed form both interior air and vent channel air. end of quote Thanks for the info, Marc. Your comment about air sealing makes a lot of sense. I'm curious why we shouldn't count on more than R1.5 per inch of straw, when other sources claim R-50 across a 14 to 16 inch bale? Granted, the initial R-value claims for straw panels turned out to be inflated, but is this also true for bales? Any info you have would be greatly appreciated. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Tue Jan 27 22:57:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA04300 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:57:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA05528 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:55:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA11347; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:50:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:46:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA10819 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:46:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA10815 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:46:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.6] (blf6.acadia.net [205.217.217.6]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA27933 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:51:35 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 22:49:34 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: House Tips Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1564 Quote: >I'm working with a local architect (Dallas, TX) on a passive solar design >for a home in Ripley, Maine. My climatological experience is only in the >south, so I would appreciate a little info from any folks from the >northeast. I've downloaded climate data such as temps, humidity, avg >cloud cover, degree days, etc. but I mainly need the intangibles. How >many days in a row can clouds linger in the winter? What is the lowest >high/low temp over a 2 day period? Any local experience you could relay >would be helpful. > >The home owner wants to use a passive solar, cinder block under slab design >as shown in the book "The Passive Solar House" by James Kachadorian. >Does anyone have any experience with this type design? It looks pretty >workable, although I have similar concerns to others recently posted about >this thermal cavity becoming a place for dust/dirt/mold/vermin/etc. Any >wisdom is appreciated. > >Paul Westbrook end of quote Paul, I've lived in Maine for most of my 42 years and I've never heard of a town called Ripley. Do you perhaps mean Rangeley? Here in the Northeast, start with keeping the footprint compact and shape not too elongated. Try to orient the building so the long face of the house faces as close to due south as possible - at least within 20 degrees. In most of Maine, true south is 17 to 18 degrees west of magnetic south. After siting, focus on a heavily insulated, very tight building envelope before getting too involved with solar strategies. Aim for at least R30 walls and R-50 roof, with at least R-10 (15 is better) insulation of foundation walls. R40 walls and R60 ceiling is often justifiable. Windows should be at least double glazed low-e with argon/krypton. Air-seal fanatically - the techniques would fill a volume, and there are handbooks out there (outstanding ones from Canada for instance). (BTW, I'm using English units here, not metric.) Do a blower door test - we used to do this, then got lazy, and recently, Marc reminded us of its value. We try to cluster storage and utility spaces to the north and keep living spaces to the south. We keep glass to a minimum on the north and west (but we don't eliminate it entirely - it's nice to know when the Northern Lights are out), keep it moderate to the east, and aim for about 12 to 15% of the floor area of the house as south-facing glass area. As Marc recently wrote, as you increase south glass, you need to increase mass accordingly. Also, as he wrote, to move from an energy-efficient house toward a 100% solar house, active collection and storage outperforms passive in our climate. With building envelopes this tight, you really have to ventilate mechanically, and ensure that all combustion is sealed, including fresh air feeds to woodstoves. Cooking with L.P. gas is problematic - I choose to do so, and just open a nearby window a crack while I cook. Other folks stick to electricity - this was a problem during our recent extended power outages during the ice storm. We tend to move on to other issues once we've achieved an energy performance of about 10-15 Btu's/sq. ft./hr. backup heat needs. Others, such as Marc, push harder to do even better. However far you choose to go, starting on the foundation outlined above has worked pretty well for lots of folks in this region. Good luck. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 00:48:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA06405 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:48:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA03800 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:47:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA15590; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:41:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:37:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA15334 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:37:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from tumalo.bendnet.com (tumalo.bendnet.com [199.2.205.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA15330 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 00:37:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.163.37.177] (b167.bendnet.com [206.163.37.177]) by tumalo.bendnet.com (8.8.8/8.8.6/bendnet-MX) with SMTP id VAA03735 for ; Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:42:54 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 21:39:26 -0700 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: airtime@bendnet.com (Marti Croal) Subject: GBlist: recent posting subject "virus" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1565 Has anyone else been experiencing computer gliches since opening a recent GBlist posting where the subject was "virus"? I don't remember much about it except that it seemed an odd posting as it had nothing to do with GBlist usual subjects. Am wondering if it was a "ringer"... I opened it, read it, and promptly threw it away. Now I'm having modem problems, application failures (error type 1 on the Mac) and printer connection problems. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 07:42:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA12849 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:42:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA16984 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:41:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA24587; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:35:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:30:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA24185 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:30:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA24177 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:30:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA26569 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:35:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:35:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from asy7.vineyard.net(199.232.92.47) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma026560; Wed Jan 28 07:35:35 1998 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: GBlist: What is Green? and Limits to Growth Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1566 I tried to think about Chuck's question. First came this: A green building, business, development, or whatever is one that: * Satisfies its occupants/participants aspirations and need for health and safety, comfort and ease of function, durability and maintainability, and engages the spirit; * Has low environmental impact in terms of land use, energy and resource use, water consumed and waste produced, and the overall health and diversity of the planet. Then something I heard Carol Venolia say about sustainability began to reverberate in my head: "Sustainability is when if you keep doing what you're doing you'll be able to keep doing what you're doing." Hmm, that's simple. But mostly, rather than answers, questions came to mind, one of which has been on my mind for a while. How many people on this List live in areas that are under intense pressure of development, almost like a state of siege? I do. And while it's impossible to establish any kind of meaningful carrying capacity, we at least know that if what we do has low environmental impact the carrying capacity increases, and if it has higher environmental impact the carrying capacity decreases. So the work that we do, by it's nature, if it has low environmental impact and societal benefits, increases the carrying capacity, or at least creates the perception of increased capacity. Is that good? Here's the real question: how do we establish some kind of meaningful limits to growth in our towns or regions without, in effect, creating exclusive gated communities (in my case, living on an island, the "gate" would be the ferry)? This is one of the most complicated social and environmental questions I know. In fact, I may not even be asking the right question. Does anyone know how to answer or re-phrase this question? Sorry I failed so miserably at giving a short answer to Chuck's question. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 09:19:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA14731 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:19:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA06345 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:18:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA27821; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:12:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:08:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA27484 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:08:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA27479 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:08:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id IAA0000015641; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:13:52 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980128141600.006a8514@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:16:00 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Re: David Foley's excellent energy eff. primer Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1567 I enjoyed seeing David Foley's excellent, succinctly written primer about how to build a good energy efficient house. I've always understood that to take maximum advantage of a passive solar design though, the building shouldn't be more than 7 degrees off of true south. Will be interested in comments on this. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 09:50:54 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15413 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:50:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA14634 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:49:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA29359; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:44:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:39:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA28864 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:39:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA28859 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:39:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA39954; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:44:26 -0700 Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 07:44:26 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: "David F. Lambertson" Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: David Foley's excellent energy eff. primer In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980128141600.006a8514@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1568 Sacie said: "I've always understood that to take maximum advantage of a passive solar design though, the building shouldn't be more than 7 degrees off of true south. Will be interested in comments on this." Although most of our projects have solar south orientation, our own home in suburban Calgary Alberta Canada is facing 22 east of solar south, or almost 45 degrees east of magnetic south, and we still do not need a gas line or propane in a 10,000 HDD climate. Energy efficiency, air tightness, passive solar, a little solar hot air collector (new 1976 system for $25), and a small solar hot water system (Thermomax), with a Tempcast multi-purpose masonry heater as the only back-up.Cooking is done on the front porch in our solar cooker when the sun is out, otherwise we use the fireplace, in the winter, fall and spring. Not theory, wishful thinking or academic gymnastics, just day-by-day reality with many on-the-job refinements and much application research to improve products, features, equipment, systems and performance a bit more. ___________________________________________________________________________ Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 09:56:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15631 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:56:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA16102 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:55:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA00068; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:50:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:45:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA29516 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:45:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA29497; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:45:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id IAA0000013207; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:50:31 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980128145244.006b3944@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:52:44 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Aussie solution to wastes Cc: strawbale@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1569 For those interested in composting solutions,The 'Dowmus' website is really beautiful, and interesting. Too bad it's not available in the US. Sacie Lambertson "Seems the email address for Dowmus was not current. But these seem to be accurate: http://www.peg.apc.org/~livingonline/dowmus/ This has a line drawing of one of their systems (not the same as in Sydney tho') and an email form. or P.O. Box 323, Cooroy Queensland 4563. Telephone (074) 476 342, Mobile: 018 711 438, Fax: (074) 425 228 International telephone: 61 74 476 342, International fax: 61 74 425 228 However I've just found what appears to a be a newer site which is simply: www.dowmus.com or email: dowmus@dowmus.com It seems that they can only supply units for the Australian market at the moment but the website is worth a look for those fecal focused folk out there." cheers, Warren Warren McLaren ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 10:34:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA16491 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:34:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA25975 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:33:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA03045; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:28:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:23:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA02455 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:23:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02451 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:23:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.71.18.151] (pm2a12.bratt.sover.net [204.71.18.172]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA05430; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:28:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:28:38 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: atwilson@sover.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980128141600.006a8514@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "David F. Lambertson" From: Alex Wilson Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: David Foley's excellent energy eff. primer Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1570 Sacie Lamberston wrote: >I enjoyed seeing David Foley's excellent, succinctly written primer about >how to build a good energy efficient house. I've always understood that to >take maximum advantage of a passive solar design though, the building >shouldn't be more than 7 degrees off of true south. Will be interested in >comments on this. Sacie Lambertson > I've never heard anyone say that a passive solar building needs to be within 7 degrees of true south. I recall work Douglas Balcomb did in the late 70s and early 80s showing that the building can be quite far off true south (like 45 degrees) with only very minimal loss of performance. I think a reasonable target is plus or minus 30 degrees. Perhaps the 7 figure you recall is the rule of thumb for how much south glass you can have as a percentage of the floor area before you need to add additional thermal mass to avoid uncomfortable temperature swings. That percentage was thrown around a lot back then--with new, high-performance glazings, that may now be different. Alex Wilson, Editor Environmental Building News ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 10:53:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA17000 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:53:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA01147 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:52:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04565; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:46:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:42:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA04173 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:42:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from radiks.net (root@sr.radiks.net [205.138.126.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA04165 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:42:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from radiks.net (pc-7AB-086.omhq.uprr.com [167.132.89.86]) by radiks.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA00544 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:48:01 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34CF5318.BBA3D7FD@radiks.net> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:47:37 -0600 From: Tom Berthold X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Woodfired hot tub References: <34CE45EB.E05@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1571 Thanks for the input Chuck. I think the thermostat/radiator route is the way to go. Given the relatively small difference between the ambient temperature of the home and the temperature of the heated water, it will probably will take a LARGE radiator to transer the heat rapidly on demand. Could probably start with one radiator and see how that goes, then if necessary could add one or two additional radiators in series. Voilla! Thanks again, Tom Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Tom wrote:> 2) Need to be able to regulate the rate at which the heat > energy is > > transfered from the water tank to the dwelling. > > Why not use a thermostatically controlled, circulating pump to > distribute the needed heat through radiators, from a super insulated > storage tank. Oughta work. > > Chuck Hinckley > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 11:30:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA17885 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:30:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA12154 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:28:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA06805; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:23:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:18:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA06234 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:18:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from radiks.net (root@sr.radiks.net [205.138.126.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA06226 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:18:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from radiks.net (pc-7AB-086.omhq.uprr.com [167.132.89.86]) by radiks.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06698; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:23:58 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34CF5B79.875E967C@radiks.net> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:23:21 -0600 From: Tom Berthold X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding List CC: rdodd@airmail.net Subject: Re: GBlist: Woodfired Hot Tub Thermal Mass References: <199801272152.QAA29768@amsterdam.interport.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1572 Thanks for the encouraging words Clarence! Yes, I'm thinking of keeping the tub indoors to ensure total capture of heat from the water. (maybe put it in the sun room to simulate the great outdoors!) I like the radiant floor loop idea a lot. The problem would be as you indicated having to include a water to water heat exchanger to comply with code concerning potable water. I'm wondering if the code would apply here if you could demonstrate that the water will NEVER be used specifically for drinking - along the lines of water in a swimming pool. I suspect however even swimming pool water is considered "potable". Anyone know the rules on this? Anyway if the radiant floor loop technique required the use of a water to water heat exchanger, in the name of economy and simplicity I would have to hesitate on implementing it as a solution. Otherwise, the radiant floor loop would probably be the optimal means of transferring the heat to the dwelling! Thanks again, Tom Berthold C. Dodge wrote: > >It would seem > >there should be a way to modify something like this to allow a dual > >function to the unit > > Bingo!!! I love it! I smell a whole new heat source here. Nice work TOM! > > The first image that came to my mind after reading your most excellent > post was to make the 'Berthold Tub Boiler' part of a radiant floor loop > with a circulator. A water-to water heat exchange would probably be > desired to keep the hot tub water isolated from the cirulating heating > water. Most building codes do not allow using domestic hot water, which > the hot tub water would be considered I guess, for radiant floor heating > systems because of the possibility of contamination of the potable water > in the tub. > > I would think insulation would be of prime importance for usage in > northern latitudes, if your intent was to keep the tub outdoors, as is > customary with hot tubs. But as I reread your post though,I think your > intent is to have it indoors and just let it radiate heat to the room. > Correct? ..........I am proposing having it outdoors for traditional hot > tub usage and pumping the heated water or just the heat into the house. > What do you think? > > Best Regards, > Clarence Dodge > cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 12:07:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA18673 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:07:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA23911 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:06:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA09218; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:56:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08828 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:56:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA08823 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:56:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5.carleton.ca [134.117.136.25]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v2.02) with ESMTP id MAA24353; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:01:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id MAA26872; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:01:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:01:50 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801281701.MAA26872@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re:roof insulation (straw/clay) Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1573 dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) wrote: Re: roof insulation > Marc wrote: >> blower door tested ... straw clay insulation in the roof was >> leaking air very significantly through the roof. I wouldn't >> count on the straw for more than R 1-1/2 per inch, Hello David, Marc and LeakSleuths; I must say that the above comments seem to shed a very unsatisfactory light on straw/clay; or as FlameBait Fred might call it, Funky Compostables. Isn't the high leakage rate more related to poor air barrier detailing than the straw/clay as insulation ... as would be the case with most conventional non-funky assemblies ? re: Insulation Value of Straw/Clay Mixtures As one would expect, the R-value will vary with the density of the straw/clay mixture. It might be better utilised for its qualities as a thermal mass material with *some* insulation value. Thanks to Mark H. and John C. we have the following (excerpted from posts to the the SB List): === * === on 22 Apr 1997 Mark A Hoberecht (Scarecrow@lerc.nasa.gov) wrote: > This information comes from one of my German reference texts, > Lehmbau-Handbuch (clay-building handbook) by Gernot Minke. > density (kg/m3) conductivity (W/mK) > > 300 0.1 > 400 0.12 [values for densities 500 - 1900 for brevity] > 2000 1.25 > 2100 1.4 * And John Cruikshank (Hobbithouse@compuserve.com) tells us: (recipe for the very lightest straw/clay mixture that he has used) > straw coated to a point where it is *just* covered and then > simply placed lightly (attic insulation) ~20#/cuft === * === If one does the arithmetic, one will find that a 300 kg/m^3 mixture (ie lighter than the lightest one that Sunny John weighed) would have an R-value of about R-1.442 per inch (ie lower than Marc Rosenbaum's guesstimate) ...and that Herr Minke's most dense mixture would have an R-value of R = 0.103 per inch. -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 13:13:36 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA20054 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:13:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA15403 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:12:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA13338; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:06:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:02:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA12956 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:02:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA12946 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:02:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.21] (blf21.acadia.net [205.217.217.21]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id NAA01329 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:07:44 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:05:45 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: Ripley, Believe it or not Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1574 Well, I'll be damned...I found Ripley on a map of Maine this morning. Way Downeast, on the coast near Harrington. That is one of the mildest winter climates in Maine, except for the far southern coast. Between 6500 and 7000 heating degree days instead of the more usual 8000 plus. BUT - not a lot of sun on that part of the coast and lots of foggy, chilly days. I'd lean more toward the suprinsulated approach than the "massive-passive" approach in that particular microclimate. Thanks to Sacie for complimenting what I wrote - compared to what others on this list know, I thought it was pretty lame, but thanks anyway. And thanks to everyone who gave us ideas about the commercial building retrofit - we'll keep you posted on any developments. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 16:09:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA24536 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:09:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA14209 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:08:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA24295; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:02:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:58:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA23927 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:58:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA23923 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:58:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.238] (ka4-238.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.238]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id QAA14927; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:02:54 -0500 X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199801161818.NAA19929@amsterdam.interport.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 06:05:00 -0500 To: "C. Dodge" , Green Building List From: Speireag Subject: Re: GBlist: Demand Radiant Floor Heat Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id PAA23924 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1575 Sgrìobh C. Dodge: >OK..... I'll bit.......What does Sgrìobh mean? And what language is it? In reverse order, Scots Gaelic, and "wrote". The verb comes first in SG. >It seems to me the much lower temps involved in radient floor, as opposed >to masonry heaters, would result in too much time and energy being spent >in rechargeing the mass if you were to let it give off most of its stored >heat on a regular basis before supplying it with additional heated water. > If this were true, then masonry stoves and passive solar heating would not work. The whole idea is that when you have an abundance of heat, the large mass stores it by absorbing it, and when you have less heat than the large mass, the large mass radiates it out. That's why, even though you only charge the mass for a few hours during the day in a passive solar house, temperatures are comparatively more comfortable all night, or even for several cloudy days. Now, you might ask what the point is, since you'll be getting the heat from a fuel source with or without the large mass. I have answers: First, I don't intend to use the propane heater for house heat until the passive solar isn't working well enough, which according to my calculations will be for about 3 months in my climate. The large mass is going to be there anyway, regardless of how I heat when the sun isn't enough, because the large mass is what makes the passive solar gain work. Second, although this may not be large enough to be significant, there has got to be inefficiency associated with starting and stopping the propane heater. If you burn the same amount of propane, but burn it less frequently in longer burns, you'll waste less propane at startup each time. Third, most heat-producing devices have set points at which they work most efficiently, and it usually not the lowest setting. If I were to trickle-charge the big mass all the time, I would probably not be using the most efficient setting. Finally, if you trickle-charge your big mass, why have it at all (apart from solar gains)? Just insulate the outside and trickle-charge your lightweight inside at whatever level will keep you comfortable. >And dont forget that with radient floor much of your perception of warmth >is given to the fact that your body is in direct contact with warmer >objects such as the floor, tables and chairs even your mattress. I read >some where thermostat settings are usually two degres lower on average >with radient floor systems. It would seem the smaller the temp swing on >these objects the more comfortable you would feel also......... No?........ > Perhaps. I have no problem walking around in my skivvies or wearing a sweatshirt indoors, so small changes in temperature aren't going to bother me. >BTW........ when your driving your car and your running out of gas, do you >drive faster to get to the gas station sooner or do you go slower to >conserve fuel? see my point? I go slower. > You've chosen the wrong analogy. The difference is not between going fast and going slow. It's been going and not going. Do you drive to the corner store every day to get what you need for that day, or do you drive once a week to the larger market and get your needs for the week? Assuming the same total mileage, you'll burn a lot less fuel and burn a lot cleaner on the once-a-week plan. I don't know if you're familiar with masonry stoves. The idea is this: take a really massive stove. Build an infrequent fire in it. But make it a very hot fire, the kind which you can't do safely in a wood stove. The mass of the masonry stores the excess heat and gives it off much more slowly, as mild warmth. The combustion is much more efficient because the various gasses combust as far as possible. And you get no creosote build-up on the chimney because the stuff which would have condensed as creosote also combusted. Same idea: the big mass takes up lots of energy and gives it off over time. All of this is moot, of course, if the mass isn't insulated against heat loss to the exterior. That may have been the case in your apartment building, or not. I don't know. Happy building, -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 16:20:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA24894 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:20:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA18061 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:19:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25206; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:13:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:09:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24503 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:09:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24499 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:09:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns.niehs.nih.gov (ns.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.8]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA03744 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:43:09 -0500 Received: from mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov (mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.26]) by ns.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA21304 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:49:42 -0500 Received: by mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD2BEB.3317F940@mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov>; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:49:41 -0500 Message-ID: From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: GBlist: vermont--slightly off topic Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:49:38 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1576 i want to relocate from north carolina to vermont where i will have a smallish home (under 1000 sq. ft.) and at least 10 acres, maybe 60% wooded, in one of the progressive areas in the northwest part of the state (addison and chittenden counties). problem is i don't have the home yet and money is very much an issue (want to spend $80,000 or less and that's for something livable year-round)! i was thinking that a camp or small off-the-grid home might be the way to go and then add pv as needed. but it seems that i might not be able to go off-grid for a while. i'm doing a lot of research into this but wanted to open the topic up for comment from the group. are there any vermonters (or others) here who can make recommendations? 1) what are most appropriate sources for home power in vermont (for example, micro-hydro, wind...) and what features should i look for in the home and land in order to use these sources? 2) what are the most durable/sustainable types of home construction for this state? 3) are there any novel ways to finance this that i may not have considered? (i've already looked into vt local banks with conservation loans, etc. but unfortunately i don't think that changes the total amount of loan i qualify for). i would love to get there and then make the land work for me/with me so i wouldn't be strapped to a 30-year mortgage but if the cost is too high, i'd have to stay in north carolina to make immediate substantial payments. obviously there are a million directions to go with this: selecting the right community, finding the right financing and/or creating the right work for myself, identifying appropriate technology for providing power off-grid... anyone had experience with this? thanks olivia james james3@niehs.nih.gov ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 16:21:05 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA24912 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:21:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA18286 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:19:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25298; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:14:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:09:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA24574 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:09:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA24562 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:09:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov (mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.26]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA30101 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:40:02 -0500 Received: by mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD2BE1.77FA72E0@mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov>; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:40:01 -0500 Message-ID: From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: GBlist: FW: Brazilian deforestation up Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:39:59 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1577 the following is not to lecture anyone (most of you are among the converted anyway) but thought deforestation stats might be of interest to some. olivia >---------- >From: EarthCulture >Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 11:36 PM > >Subject: Brazilian deforestation up > >>FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >Monday 26th January 1998 page 1 of 2 >SHOCK NEW FIGURES SHOW WORST LOSS OF BRAZILIAN RAINFOREST EVER >> >>Shock new figures on deforestation in the Brazilian Amazon show the >>worst rates of forest loss ever. The figures released today, by the >>Brazilian Government show that the rate of loss of forest doubled >>between 1994 and 1995. Forest loss in 1996 also remained well above >>1994 levels. Friends of the Earth said today that the figures had >>"potentially disastrous implications for global climate change and >>species loss". >> >>The figures are compiled by the Brazilian Ministry of Science and >>Technology, based on satellite findings from the National Space Research >>Institute. They show that in 1995 29,059 square kilometres of forest >>were lost compared to 14,896 square kilometres in 1994. Forest loss in >>1996 was 18,161 square kilometres. The Brazilian Government suppressed >>the 1995 data for over a year. >> >>In 1996, Britain imported 234,000 cubic metres of tropical timber, >>making the UK a major user of Brazilian timber. Last year, the Brazilian >>Government admitted that four fifths of the timber extracted from the >>rain forest was obtained illegally. >> >>Sarah Tyack, Rainforest Campaigner for Friends of the Earth said: >> >> "We are shocked to see that the rate of forest loss is now even >>worse than the late 1980s. These figures have potentially disastrous >>implications for climate change and species loss. The Brazilian >>Government and the international timber trade must act now to reduce >>the rate of forest loss. The world will pay a high price for any >>continuing delay." >>- ENDS- >> >>[1] In 1994, President Cardoso, reacted to the worsening >>deforestation figures by announcing a two year moratorium on issuing >>licenses for new mahogany logging concessions. >> >>[2] The number of fires in the Brazilian Amazon between July and >>November (the logging season) increased by over 50% between 1996 and >>1997 according to the NOAA-12 satellite readings. > >____________________________________ >Rick Spencer, Programs Director >EarthCulture & >Coalition Coordinator, Rainforest Wood Coalition >PO Box 4674 >Greensboro, NC 27404 >Phone & Fax: 336-685-7012 >e-mail: earthcul@nr.infi.net > >CHECK OUT EarthCulture's webpage! >http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/3294 >____________________________________ > >STOP THE TROPICAL CHOP! Use sustainable or recycled wood products- >or simply reduce your wood consumption. > >Rainforests are the home to 50% of the world's species & 50 million >indigenous peoples. By boycotting rainforest woods- like mahogany, >teak, lauan, & ramin, you can help save our most important ecosystems! > >We need action in your area!! >Contact us for our FREE Rainforest Woods Action Pack! > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 17:40:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA26752 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:40:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA11890 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:39:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA29124; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:33:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:29:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA28800 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:29:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA28793 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:29:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (dial-137-TNT-BTVT-01.ramp.together.net [208.13.202.137]) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA24195; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:34:40 -0500 Message-ID: <34CFB276.19E8@together.net> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:34:30 -0500 From: Tom Anderson Reply-To: hvac@together.net Organization: Mechanical Systems Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04C-KIT (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tom Berthold CC: Greenbuilding List , rdodd@airmail.net Subject: Re: GBlist: Woodfired Hot Tub Thermal Mass References: <199801272152.QAA29768@amsterdam.interport.net> <34CF5B79.875E967C@radiks.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1578 Tom: Water in a hot tub is not potable, even though the source is domestic water. Going by memory.... without looking at charts or codes, the hot tub water would probably be classified as "Moderate Hazard". Therefore, a backflow preventer device is usually required at make-up connection to tub from Dom water. This is prevent cross contamination of tub water into domestic water system upon loss of domestic pressure. Tom Anderson Tom Berthold wrote: > > Thanks for the encouraging words Clarence! > > Yes, I'm thinking of keeping the tub indoors to ensure total capture of > heat from the water. (maybe put it in the sun room to simulate the great > outdoors!) I like the radiant floor loop idea a lot. The problem would be > as you indicated having to include a water to water heat exchanger to comply > with code concerning potable water. I'm wondering if the code would apply > here if you could demonstrate that the water will NEVER be used specifically > for drinking - along the lines of water in a swimming pool. I suspect > however even swimming pool water is considered "potable". Anyone know the > rules on this? Anyway if the radiant floor loop technique required the use > of a water to water heat exchanger, in the name of economy and simplicity I > would have to hesitate on implementing it as a solution. Otherwise, the > radiant floor loop would probably be the optimal means of transferring the > heat to the dwelling! > > Thanks again, > Tom Berthold > > C. Dodge wrote: > > > >It would seem > > >there should be a way to modify something like this to allow a dual > > >function to the unit > > > > Bingo!!! I love it! I smell a whole new heat source here. Nice work TOM! > > > > The first image that came to my mind after reading your most excellent > > post was to make the 'Berthold Tub Boiler' part of a radiant floor loop > > with a circulator. A water-to water heat exchange would probably be > > desired to keep the hot tub water isolated from the cirulating heating > > water. Most building codes do not allow using domestic hot water, which > > the hot tub water would be considered I guess, for radiant floor heating > > systems because of the possibility of contamination of the potable water > > in the tub. > > > > I would think insulation would be of prime importance for usage in > > northern latitudes, if your intent was to keep the tub outdoors, as is > > customary with hot tubs. But as I reread your post though,I think your > > intent is to have it indoors and just let it radiate heat to the room. > > Correct? ..........I am proposing having it outdoors for traditional hot > > tub usage and pumping the heated water or just the heat into the house. > > What do you think? > > > > Best Regards, > > Clarence Dodge > > cdodge@interport.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 19:34:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA29922 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:34:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA14374 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA04367; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:26:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:22:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA03979 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:21:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA03972 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:21:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA03103 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:27:30 -0500 Message-id: <2054245@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 28 Jan 98 07:59:13 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Woodfired Hot Tub Thermal Mass To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1579 Tom - Just so you don't think you're crazy - I thought of this very same thing years ago for my own house, but didn't do it. Why? No single good reason! But I definitely think it is feasible. My inclination tends towards what Clarence suggested - keep it indoors,and distribute heat via radiant surfaces. One conflict between the two uses is that hot tub water is usually around 105F or so - you can only use the storage water down to a temp. of 80F or so, even in a superinsulated home. So a 5' diam tank with say, 4' of water in it only stores 120,000 Btu between 105 and 80F. In my climate, even in a superinsulated home (200 Btu/hr/F) you'd be firing the stove 3 or 4 times a day in really cold weather. Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 19:42:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA00066 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:42:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA16690 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:40:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA04889; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:35:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:31:24 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA04584 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:31:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA04580 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:31:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA03736 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:36:47 -0500 Message-id: <2054416@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 28 Jan 98 08:14:48 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: roof insulation To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1580 --- You wrote: I'm curious why we shouldn't count on more than R1.5 per inch of straw, when other sources claim R-50 across a 14 to 16 inch bale? Granted, the initial R-value claims for straw panels turned out to be inflated, but is this also true for bales? --- end of quoted material --- Has Oak Ridge published the results they previewed at EEBA? Tested about R-15, calculated max possible about R-31 (?). I think this was for 18 inch thick bale. I think early numbers were from McCabe's test of a single bale. More recent tests have been whole wall. Nehemiah Stone should be able to shed light here, eh? Usually, R-value and density are pretty well correlated. expecting bales to be similar to fiberglass or cellulose has always seemed optimistic to me, but I await high quality tests. The ORNL test may be low because one wall was sheetrocked, and air was moving between the sheetrock and the bales. It pinted out what building scientists have been observing about these walls - that there are definitely going to be workmanship issues with them, just as there are with any other const. type! Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 19:47:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA00171 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:47:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA18287 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:46:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05317; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:40:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:36:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA04970 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:36:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA04962 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:36:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA04128 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:42:16 -0500 Message-id: <2054502@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 28 Jan 98 08:21:43 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: What is Green? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1581 If John can be verbose and give questions rather than answers, so can I! Here are some questions I posed at NESEA's Renew '94 - they still are very much in my thinking: * How can we make buildings that produce rather than consume resources? * How can we make buildings that export electricity and energy? * How can we make buildings that produce and store food? * How can we make buildings that improve the quality of the water that falls on them? * How can we make buildings that create nutrients from the wastes generated inside them? * How can we make buildings that enhance the health of the occupants? * How can we make buildings that are good places to work in? * How can we make buildings that help people in them discover and "honor their purpose for existence" (from Mutant Message by Marlo Morgan) Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 19:54:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA01910 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:54:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA20131 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:52:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA05908; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:47:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:43:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05415 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:42:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05411 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:42:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA29773 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:49:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 28 Jan 1998 16:46:59 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: GROWTH To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAA05412 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1582 John, I think I know what you mean when you worry about unrestrained growth, and I guess you realized as you asked the question that Ògated communitiesÓ werenÕt exactly the issue. But I think we all know that growth, in the Òpopulation explosionÓ sense, is possibly humankindÕs biggest threat. At the risk of being considered a Nazi, or worse, I wonder if anyone else has considered this: if there were a simple way to switch off the reproductive capabilities of boys and/or girls until they are, say, 25, and are judged to be arguably financially and parentally capable, wouldnÕt the world be a much happier place within a few generations? The times IÕve broached this pet theory at parties, for instance, people for those most part have thought I was fascist, racist, or just nuts. And/or they would say: nobody should be able to judge whether people should have children. (But as far as I know, no one advocates letting just anyone off the street adopt a child.) If we could make sure that people werenÕt being discriminated against for reasons of race or religion or anything else, and if we could develop reliable indicators of people who arenÕt good parent material, does anyone else think this might be a good idea? Or is this just too radical? Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 19:57:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA01993 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:57:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA20922 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:55:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA06415; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:50:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:45:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA05729 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:45:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA05717 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:45:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (user-38lcmtq.dialup.mindspring.com [209.86.91.186]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA31480 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:51:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980128190040.006ce378@mindspring.com> X-Sender: scmerritt@mindspring.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 19:00:40 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Stephen C. Merritt" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: David Foley's excellent energy eff. primer In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980128141600.006a8514@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1583 At 08:16 AM 1/28/98 -0600, you wrote: >I enjoyed seeing David Foley's excellent, succinctly written primer about >how to build a good energy efficient house. I've always understood that to >take maximum advantage of a passive solar design though, the building >shouldn't be more than 7 degrees off of true south. Will be interested in >comments on this. Sacie Lambertson > I missed this primer... where could I see/get/obtain/:-) one? Stephen Merritt mailto:scmerritt@mindspring.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 21:21:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA04779 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA13194 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:20:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA10218; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:11:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:07:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA09760 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:06:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin54.mail.aol.com (mrin54.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.164]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA09756 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:06:55 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin54.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA03285 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:11:50 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:11:50 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980128211150_-364717582@mrin54> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: What is Green? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1584 Marc R. said... >>* How can we make buildings that produce rather than consume resources?<< This is good! Going beyond even energy and resource _conserving_ buildings...! I've been thinking about one way to do this. For the last year or two I've been looking at (and photographing when I can) the way plants grow on buildings. Starting with ivy on brick, through trellisses & arbors, to planted roofs. Portland, OR has a lot of this. And Bernard Maybeck is a master of the trellis! In several of my recently completed & "in-progress" projects, flowering and fruiting vines will cover portions of buildings with productive plants, like grapes or kiwis. Still in the development stages, but I'm working toward the Chia House.... And Marc continued... >>* How can we make buildings that improve the quality of the water that falls on them?<< David Rousseau was telling me his new house has a break in the roof pitch, with overhangs that are basically flat, planted subsurface flow wetlands. The water that drains from the roof is purer than what falls on it. What a guy! Rob Harrison Seattle ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 22:22:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA05922 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:22:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA28880 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:21:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA12953; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:15:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:11:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA12656 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:11:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mx01.together.net (mx01.together.net [204.97.120.61]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA12652 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:11:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from together.org (uucp@localhost) by mx01.together.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id WAA09383; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:16:33 -0500 From: Michael_Shaw@together.org (Michael Shaw) Reply-To: Michael_Shaw@together.org To: james3@niehs.nih.gov Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: vermont--slightly off topic Date: 29 Jan 1998 03:03:44 GMT Message-Id: <1265037278.12012144@together.org> Organization: TogetherNet Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1585 Dear Olivia, I live in the Ten Stones Community in Charlotte,Vermont. Ten Stones is on 88 acres about nine miles south of Burlington and is a cross between a co-housing community and an intentional community with an ecological (Eco-Village) and spiritual and community focus. We try to be as green as we can manage and grow a big garden and have built thirteen energy efficient non-toxic houses and so on. There are five straw bale houses. We built ours in 1997. Many of the families have a spiritual practice - mainly meditation and Zen and yoga and wilderness - and nobody is required to do or be anything or join in or not. As a Community, we try and work through stuff as it comes up - sometimes more successfully than others. It is all quite low key and Vermont. We are built out now and I will let you know if a house becomes available. I will be glad to put you in touch with people who know the area well and also local off the grid energy people. Good luck, Michael Michael Shaw, Ten Stones Community, 177 Ten Stones Circle, Charlotte, VT 05445 Tel: 802 425 2931 Fax: 802 865 4438 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 22:27:46 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA06008 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:27:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA00424 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:26:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA13529; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:20:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:16:31 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA13035 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:16:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13026 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:16:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.18] (blf18.acadia.net [205.217.217.18]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id WAA05579 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:21:43 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:19:43 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: What is Green? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1586 Excellent posting, Marc! Man, I shudder whenever someone asks for a definition of "Sustainable", because usually it's such a tough question! I think that "Sustainability" is one of those impossible words, like "Quality" or "Love" - you know what it is, but how do you define it? Sometimes, even though you can't define something, you recognize its characteristics. Thinking about that, I wrote the following a few years ago. (John Abrams verbose? Hah! He don't KNOW from verbose!) Characteristics of Sustainable Built Environments: Comfort: Sustainable environments provide simple comfort, helping us feel fully alive and at peace. They are a pleasure to be in. Sustainable buildings fit our patterns of life, engaging our minds, nourishing our hearts and delighting our senses. Health: Sustainable buildings avoid poisons, disorientation, noise and stress. We feel strong, whole and calm in them, not sick and stifled . They provide healthy indoor air, non-toxic materials, natural daylight, good acoustics, and a sense of place. Spirit: Sustainable environments speak to our souls and strengthen our bonds to nature and the universe. They encourage reflection, and support our full range of feelings. We are reminded of life's passing, but shown a glimpse of something eternal. Harmony with Place: A sustainable building grows from its site, accepting the site's gifts and respecting its limits. The building's design is tailored to a unique place and climate. Resource Stewardship: Sustainable buildings use materials efficiently and avoid materials which despoil the environment. When possible, old materials are salvaged and reused, new materials are made from recycled ones and waste during construction is minimized. Energy Efficiency: Sustainable buildings are easy to heat, cool and light. Thick insulation and south-facing glass lower oil bills and tanker spills. Home workplaces lessen commutes and new highway construction. Compact fluorescent bulbs cut the electric bill and the need for new power plants. Space Efficiency: Good design can provide our needs without wasting space, freeing our budgets for high-quality, healthy and durable construction. Compact buildings are easier to tailor to sites, cost less, are easier to heat and maintain, and focus on long-term value, instead of short-term glitz. Durability: Sustainable buildings are designed and built to last. They are easy to maintain and repair, avoid cheap materials, fussy details, and shoddy work. They have excellent drainage, sturdy structure, thorough weatherproofing and careful craftsmanship. They are heirlooms. Adaptability: Sustainable buildings can change and adapt to new uses and new needs. Buildings which are hard to change get torn down. Adaptable buildings are continually improved. Upgrading a building usually takes fewer resources and less money than building from scratch. Buildings which evolve come to be loved. Respect: Sustainable environments can't be created by arrogance or greed, but only in collaboration with their users, and with respect for those who do the work. Sustainable buildings are good neighbors. Sustainable buildings emphasize long-term value over short-term profit. Above all, sustainable buildings respect the future. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 22:28:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA06035 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:28:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA00774 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:27:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA13667; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:21:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:17:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA13137 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:17:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA13131 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA17742 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:23:11 -0500 Message-id: <2062232@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 28 Jan 98 19:53:41 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: re:roof insulation (straw/clay) To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1587 --- You wrote: Isn't the high leakage rate more related to poor air barrier detailing than the straw/clay as insulation ... as would be the case with most conventional non-funky assemblies ? --- end of quoted material --- Yes, absolutely - but it also speaks to the necessity of absolutely encasing the straw insulation in the rafter bay from ventilation air and windwashing, because it is very porous and any air movement will degrade performance significantly. The other issue that I theorize is that I believe it is difficult to ensure that the straw or straw-clay is really pushed down against the interior sheathing material, so air channels on the inside face can easily exist, esp. at the corners. We saw this in the IR scan of this roof (or thought we did! We scanned first then depressurized with Blower door. Roof looked much worse, but esp at edges of rafter bays adjacent to the rafters. THanks for your confirmation of my R value guess! Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 23:30:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07101 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:30:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA18670 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:27:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17009; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:16:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA16566 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:16:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA16539 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:16:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id WAA0000010993; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:21:47 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980129042352.006b6064@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:23:52 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: What is Green? Cc: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1588 To Marc's not entirely rhetorical questions below, some rhetorical answers can be found in: Chris Alexander et al 'Patterns---' book or in Lisa Heschong's 'Thermal Delight in Architecture', or maybe read Aldo van Eyck or Norberg-Schultz. (The essence of dwelling) or Clare Cooper ( Symbols of self), or Rybczynski (the Practical), or Sim Van der Ryn, . . . . 'Ecological Design (1996)' and 'Sustainable Communities : a new design synthesis for cities'), or J B Jackson's 'American Space: the Centennial Years, 1865-1876'. and 'Discovering the Vernacular Landscape' and 'The Essential landscape : the New Mexico Photographic Survey' are wonderful for this . . . . not to mention such affectionate 'sense of place' books as Marilyn Robinson's 'Housekeeping', Forster's 'Howard's 'End', David Thompson's "Woodbrook' and Hardy's 'Tess'.. . . . so much good stuff . . . . Know this list will send everyone running to their nearest library, but in fact one can develop a better understanding of how to go about getting the answers to some of the questions through these writings. I'm still trying to get through them. Certainly good design will incorporate the essence of these. * How can we make buildings that enhance the health of the occupants? * How can we make buildings that are good places to work in? * How can we make buildings that help people in them discover and "honor their purpose for existence" Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 23:34:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07192 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:34:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA20153 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:32:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17332; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:27:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:23:21 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17077 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:23:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17073 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:23:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.110.34] (usrts1-rgport34.port.net [207.237.110.34]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA29008 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:28:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801290428.XAA29008@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: What is Green? (Rob Harrison) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 23:28:54 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1589 Rob >I've been thinking about one way to do this. For the last year or two I've >been looking at (and photographing when I can) the way plants grow on >buildings. Starting with ivy on brick, through trellisses & arbors, to >planted roofs. Portland, OR has a lot of this. And Bernard Maybeck is a >master of the trellis! You re probably aware of Malcohm Wells designs for underground homes in the late 70's I think. His planted roofs in combination with really wonderful freestanding trellis work right up against the building has always been a favorite of mine. The effect is that you re not really aware of where the roof ends and the wall begins. At least in the photos............Wells also avocated planting veggies on his earthen roofs and fruit bearing vinery on the trellises. I am not aware of Bernard Maybeck. Could you post a little more info about him? Books maybe? C Dodge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Wed Jan 28 23:39:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA07314 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:39:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA21655 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:38:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA17699; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:32:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:28:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA17405 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:28:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from cc00ms.unity.ncsu.edu (cc00ms.unity.ncsu.edu [152.1.1.35]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA17401 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:28:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from unity.ncsu.edu (s012h007.dialup.ncsu.edu [204.84.244.199]) by cc00ms.unity.ncsu.edu (8.8.4/US19Dec96) with ESMTP id XAA04139 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:33:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34D02FC6.3D2FEAD@unity.ncsu.edu> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:29:10 -0800 From: Parie Hines X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: GB List Subject: GBlist: New England Sustainable Design Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1590 Greetings! I am a frequent lurker on the list, and enjoy learning from everyone. I am finishing up a master's degree in architecture at NC State. This summer, I am planning a trip from North Carolina up through the Northeast. Since my concentration of studies is in sustainable design and development, this seems like a wonderful opportunity to see examples of this in action. If I have a relatively organized itinerary to meet a deadline next week, it may even be possible for me to get some funding. Do any of you have suggestions for places to go (especially the interesting ones which will never show up in an architecture magazine)? I am interested in the whole gamut of green architecture, permaculture, intentional communities, eco-villages, etc. I would love to hear your ideas! Thank you, Parie Hines ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 00:02:59 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id AAA08074 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 00:02:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id AAA28458 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 00:01:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA18324; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:55:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:52:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA18087 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:51:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA18083 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:51:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (usr27.cwo.com [207.173.173.37]) by mail.cwo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11887 for ; Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:58:17 -0800 Message-Id: <199801290458.UAA11887@mail.cwo.com> Reply-To: From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: insulating value of Straw Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:40:01 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1591 - --- You wrote: "I'm curious why we shouldn't count on more than R1.5 per inch of straw, when other sources claim R-50 across a 14 to 16 inch bale? Granted, the initial R-value claims for straw panels turned out to be inflated, but is this also true for bales?" Probably; but the jury's not in yet. "Has Oak Ridge published the results they previewed at EEBA? Tested about R-15, calculated max possible about R-31 (?). I think this was for 18 inch thick bale." They have not yet published the results and I believe it is unlikely that they will, unless they do so in conjunction with the results of a second test. The first one had problems (which I originally characterized as "errors" - silly me). The air space which allowed convective currents was not the only 'problem." They also used bales that were barely 5#/cu.ft. "I think early numbers were from McCabe's test of a single bale. More recent tests have been whole wall. Nehemiah Stone should be able to shed light here, eh?" Nothing like putting me on the spot, Marc. We did run a pair of whole wall tests at an accredited lab using the ASTM C-236 Hot Box test. Our test samples also had "problems." We were able to identify the problems, characterze the probable effect on tested R-value and provide recommendations for another test to overcome the "problems." At this point the report to the Energy Commission is in its final formatting stage before being presented to the Commissioners. The purpose of the test was to obtain more data so that the Commission could reach a decision about what R-value should be used in calculations of building energy performance for compliance with the code in California. It would be improper for me to say what value we got or what will likely be used in California before the Commissioners get their copies of the report. I don't believe that you will ever see numbers for whole wall systems as high as the single-bale Hot Plate tests done by McCabe. However, in terms of how real buildings perform, the mass added by the wall (including the stucco and plaster coats) makes these systems perform better than a simple R-value rating would indicate. ... "The ORNL test may be low because one wall was sheetrocked, and air was moving between the sheetrock and the bales. It pointed out what building scientists have been observing about these walls - that there are definitely going to be workmanship issues with them, just as there are with any other const. type!" YES! In fact, the performance of a straw bale wall will be dependent upon at least: * bale density * moisture content (a transient value), * width of the bales, * orientation of the strands (a narrower wall with the strands vertical appears to be able to outperform a wider wall with the strands parallel to the heat flow), * adhesion of the surfacing material to the bales, * species of 'grasses' used, * infiltration detailing, and * wall compression. Nehemiah ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 01:30:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id BAA10093 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:30:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id BAA16406 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:28:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA20288; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:23:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:17:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA19991 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA19987 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sf20.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.117]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id BAA22314 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:23:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34D01F2E.676D@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 01:18:22 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: deforestation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1592 Olivia, As horrible as these numbers are I don't want to say anything to lessen their impact. The one thing I question is whether logging is really the major source of the problem, isn't slash and burn agriculture the larger portion of the destruction, particularly cattle grazing? Does anyone know the percentages? This isn't an attempt to promote mahogany sales, but more an attempt to point out the need to address all of the villains. Boycotting South American beef and produce might actually be more effective. If the timber that is stupidly burned were converted to usable wood products and agriculture was prohibited in the rainforest, how would that change the dynamic? I'm not sure that avoiding mahogany is as strong a response as is required, perhaps a total economic boycott of Brazil. Although that still doesn't address the economic issues in rainforest countries that are the underying causes of the deforestation. It is a very large and complex issue, one I haven't been able fully digest so far. I want to respond appropriatly, i just don't see a clear and obvious solution. I do architectural millwork and we do sometimes use import woods, we do try to use woods that certified as having been harvested conscientiously. This is the most appropriate response I have found, it provides economic incentives to use sustainable practices and still provides needed cash in the poorest of cultures. Without some alternative sources of income as an offset to slash and burn I don't foresee any appreciable change in the status quo. Chuck Hinckley ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 07:46:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA17215 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:46:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA16512 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:45:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA28918; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:39:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:33:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA28608 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:33:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA28604 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:33:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA00937 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:39:02 -0500 Message-id: <2066448@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 29 Jan 98 07:44:41 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: What is Green? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1593 --- You wrote: David Rousseau was telling me his new house has a break in the roof pitch, with overhangs that are basically flat, planted subsurface flow wetlands. The water that drains from the roof is purer than what falls on it. --- end of quoted material --- How deep? Seems like a very heavy overhang! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 08:01:22 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA17495 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:01:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA19045 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:00:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA29572; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:54:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:48:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA29217 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:48:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from pike.sover.net (root@pike.sover.net [204.71.16.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA29213 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:48:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from sover.net (usr0a1.burl.sover.net [207.136.198.101]) by pike.sover.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA06908; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:54:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34D07B26.FFB035A9@sover.net> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:50:46 -0500 From: Eric Warren X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jean Gallagher , GreenBuild List Subject: Re: GBlist: GROWTH References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1594 Jean, When I see governments operating in a responsible manner, and when I see social inequities lessen, and when I see power not being concentrated in the hands of wealthy individuals and corporations, and when I see people who are so concerned about the population explosion do something to lessen the overwhelming impact their "western" lifestyles have on the planet, and when we have done everything in our power to educate the vast majority on this planet who would be most abused by population control programs and bring their standard of living up to a point where they can start thinking about global problems, then, maybe I can let population problems come to the fore - but, if these things were to happen, I don't think the problems would exist any more... I'm sure that there is a carrying capacity for this planet which we could reach any time, however, our problems right now have much more to do with the greed of a few than sheer numbers of people. I have seen too many "overpopulationists" use the issue to justify their consumptive lifestyles. Yes, we should be advocating for choice and education around family planning issues, but what you suggest is indeed scary - it is exactly the kind of thinking that led to the rise of the Nazis, who were very concerned with their "environment". Sorry for the strong reaction - but it is an issue that really concerns me. -Eric Warren Jean Gallagher wrote: > snip> > At the risk of being considered a Nazi, or worse, I wonder if anyone else has > considered this: if there were a simple way to switch off the reproductive > capabilities of boys and/or girls until they are, say, 25, and are judged to > be arguably financially and parentally capable, wouldnÕt the world be a > much happier place within a few generations? ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 08:04:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA17561 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:04:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA19689 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:03:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA29770; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:57:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:51:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA29345 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:51:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA29341 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:51:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA01681; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 07:57:14 -0500 Message-id: <2066654@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 29 Jan 98 08:02:52 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: What is Green? To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: healthy@bloomington.in.us Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1595 --- You wrote: After all, the primary purpose of a house is to provide shelter for people, so their most personal needs should be listed first. I'm sure we could all quibble over an exact order, but I feel that the healthy of the occupants should always be #1 on any greenbuilding list. If you aren't able to accomplish one or two of the other goals, you've probably still done a very good job, bit if a house isn't healthy, what's the point? --- end of quoted material --- Good response. This begins to get to an interesting philosophical issue - what's more important, the occupants, or the rest of creation? In Joe Lstiburek's Cold Climate book, he prioritizes people/short term concerns/local concerns over planetray environment/long term/global concerns. I'm not sure I agree. People are born and they die - they may be more renewable than species which are being completely extinguished. I'm not arguing for unhealthy homes, just saying that I probably have a different set of priorities in my value system than most people! In my fuzzy-thinking way, I seem to feel that planetary health is more important than individual people's health. This is certain to provoke some people. Can we have a discussion without people pointing out the obvious (that I'm an idiot/android)? Marc ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 09:08:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA19096 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:08:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA03515 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:07:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA01700; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:59:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:54:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA01396 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:53:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo29.mail.aol.com (imo29.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.157]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA01392 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:53:50 -0500 (EST) From: Marcoplos Message-ID: <691e4cfe.34d08b0f@aol.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:58:37 EST To: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET, greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: healthy@bloomington.in.us Subject: Re: GBlist: What is Green? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1596 The health of occupant vs. health of environment issue may be very similar to the economy vs. environment issue that always seems to surface. I think in both cases the issues are really inseparable and that, until we receive incontrovertible evidence that it is impossible, our goal should be to achieve success with both. Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 10:24:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA20652 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:24:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA21959 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:23:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA05737; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:17:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:10:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA05277 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:10:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA05273 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:10:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (sasc6-38.flash.net [209.30.91.38]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA15951; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:15:43 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34D09F2B.35E7B215@flash.net> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:24:27 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, healthy@bloomington.in.us Subject: Re: GBlist: What is Green? References: <2066654@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1597 Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > --- You wrote: > After all, the primary purpose of a house is to provide shelter > for people, so their most personal needs should be listed first. (snip) > --- end of quoted material --- > Good response. This begins to get to an interesting philosophical issue - > what's more important, the occupants, or the rest of creation? In Joe > Lstiburek's Cold Climate book, he prioritizes people/short term concerns/local > concerns over planetray environment/long term/global concerns. > > I'm not sure I agree. People are born and they die - they may be more > renewable than species which are being completely extinguished. I'm not > arguing for unhealthy homes, just saying that I probably have a different set > of priorities in my value system than most people! In my fuzzy-thinking way, I > seem to feel that planetary health is more important than individual people's > health. > > This is certain to provoke some people. Can we have a discussion without > people pointing out the obvious (that I'm an idiot/android)? > > Marc > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ Marc, I'm probably displaying a keen eye for the obvious, but aren't "planetary environment/long term/global" goals really long term "people" goals? The finest homes and workplaces will only be empty monuments to short term thinking if we construct them at the ultimate cost of the only planet we have to live on. The real problem is to get folks to feel the satisfaction of an immediate reward for fulfilling long term goals. I've read that one definition of maturity is the ability to work for a delayed reward. Small children must be rewarded immediately. As they mature, they develop a sense of "future" and can work toward goals farther out--'til payday, for instance. Unfortunately, if the ratio of consumer credit spending to long term saving is a reliable measure, mankind ain't all that mature. Now we're asking people to work for a reward that they'll NEVER personally reap. The payoff is, in most cases, beyond the lives of their grandchildren. Heck, this is tougher than selling life insurance. Now, on the philosophic side: is an android that employs fuzzy thinking the mental rival of an idiot that employs fuzzy logic? (Please--no flames. This quandry is offered as amusement, not insult.) Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 10:53:47 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA22209 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:53:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA00932 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:52:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07694; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:46:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:41:01 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06940 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:40:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA06930 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:40:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov (mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.26]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA08935 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:46:13 -0500 Received: by mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD2CA3.1E40B350@mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov>; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:46:13 -0500 Message-ID: From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: FW: GBlist: deforestation Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:46:11 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1598 >---------- >From: James.Olivia >Sent: Thursday, January 29, 1998 10:44 AM >To: 'ashcreek@dreamscape.com' >Subject: RE: GBlist: deforestation > >on the contrary, Chuck, i felt your comments were very appropriate and i've >forwarded these thoughts to the EarthCulture folks. obviously a broader >vision is necessary in a number of ways. for one, the limited scope becomes >obvious to others and the result is a diffusion of the urgency instead of a >concentration of effort. these are important considerations. since i haven't >eaten meat in several years, i can feel like i'm doing my part when it comes >to supporting or boycotting the agriculture. but the effect of my >vegetarianism is zero compared to the potential effects of supporting a >boycott and working to change the economic structure in Brazil. thanks for >sharing. >olivia > >---------- >From: Chuck Hinckley >Sent: Thursday, January 29, 1998 1:18 AM >To: greenbuilding@crest.org >Subject: GBlist: deforestation > >Olivia, > >As horrible as these numbers are I don't want to say anything to lessen >their impact. The one thing I question is whether logging is really the >major source of the problem, isn't slash and burn agriculture the larger >portion of the destruction, particularly cattle grazing? Does anyone >know the percentages? This isn't an attempt to promote mahogany sales, >but more an attempt to point out the need to address all of the >villains. Boycotting South American beef and produce might actually be >more effective. If the timber that is stupidly burned were converted to >usable wood products and agriculture was prohibited in the rainforest, >how would that change the dynamic? I'm not sure that avoiding mahogany >is as strong a response as is required, perhaps a total economic boycott >of Brazil. Although that still doesn't address the economic issues in >rainforest countries that are the underying causes of the deforestation. > >It is a very large and complex issue, one I haven't been able fully >digest so far. I want to respond appropriatly, i just don't see a clear >and obvious solution. I do architectural millwork and we do sometimes >use import woods, we do try to use woods that certified as having been >harvested conscientiously. This is the most appropriate response I have >found, it provides economic incentives to use sustainable practices and >still provides needed cash in the poorest of cultures. Without some >alternative sources of income as an offset to slash and burn I don't >foresee any appreciable change in the status quo. > >Chuck Hinckley >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 11:15:03 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA24855 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:15:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA08407 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09218; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:07:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:00:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA08537 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:00:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA08528 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:00:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA21736; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:06:03 -0800 Message-ID: <34D0A7FA.340CC7CC@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:02:02 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org, healthy@bloomington.in.us Subject: Re: GBlist: What is Green? References: <2066654@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1599 Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > > > I'm not sure I agree. People are born and they die - they may be more > renewable than species which are being completely extinguished. I'm not > arguing for unhealthy homes, just saying that I probably have a different set > of priorities in my value system than most people! In my fuzzy-thinking way, I > seem to feel that planetary health is more important than individual people's > health. > > This is certain to provoke some people. Can we have a discussion without > people pointing out the obvious (that I'm an idiot/android)? > There is the thought that Joe Lstiburek may have been expressing that if we look after our own health, needs, etc. the rest will fall in place. Or a more negative concept that we may not be capable of looking beyond our own immediate exigencies. I have to admit though that I am in quite strong agreement with you. I've thought that the health of the occupants should be a byproduct of a healthy world and I would argue that it would be difficult to achieve any serious level of health comfort or well being without that. A house is not a refuge or ark (or not for many) more of an environmental interface that has the potential to mediate our existence in an environment. Notions of comfort and health have changed through history and there is a cultural not a physical bias in most that makes it difficult to design for well. I would prefer generally that my basic client is the environment at this point. The requirements are much more straightforward. Thanks for the provoking thoughts. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 11:26:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25193 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA11890 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:24:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10060; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:18:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:13:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA09599 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:13:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA09595 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:12:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA22041; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:18:18 -0800 Message-ID: <34D0AAD6.53604BD2@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 08:14:14 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "James.Olivia" CC: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: Re: GBlist: FW: Brazilian deforestation up References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1600 This is what I was referring to when I mentioned that companies here were in effect packing up a decade ago in favour of less restrictive climes - by the time there is effective global response to such corporate practices . . . the Taga (sp?) is next or current. Meanwhile our local gov't is trying to buy the companies back. Which brings up the question if you look at investment, tax credit and direct government support of these industries how much actual financial gain is represented in this loss. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 11:32:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA25373 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:32:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA13813 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:30:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA10766; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:25:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:19:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA10179 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:19:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo27.mail.aol.com (imo27.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.155]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA10164 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:19:34 -0500 (EST) From: F Unger Message-ID: <544e8ada.34d0ab7a@aol.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:16:56 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: What is Green? Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) X-Mailer: Inet_Mail_Out (IMOv11) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1601 Marc R., I'll weigh in later with my sense of what is green. I feel compelled to respond to your post however. It's hard to not call you all sorts of names for a proposition that the health of the planet comes before the health of the occupants in the homes we build. Especially coming from such an intelligent guy that I hold in such high regard. I hope I might help focus some of your "fuzzy thinking" and encourage you to examine the full logic of your proposition. I have to agree with Lstiburek's priorities. The fundamental logic of your proposition would seem to suggest that we leave nature in a pristine wilderness state and not build houses at all. If individuals don't matter, let them freeze in the rain and snow, right? What the heck are you doing living in such a nice big house instead of a hole in a dead tree? How could we ever build a green building using the logic of your priorities? The act of building at all violates the fundamental principle. Mark (Marcoplos) is absolutely right "until we receive incontrovertible evidence that it is impossible, our goal should be to achieve success with both" the environment and human health. If that is impossible than human health is surely first priority. When the dinosaurs were wiped out, by whatever wiped them out, fossil evidence suggests that some 75% of then existing species were wiped out with them. Yet the planet and the biosphere recovered and thrived. At least for the next several million years, it always will, no matter what we as people might do. If we kill ourselves off with our own stupidity, life will still go on quite nicely, no matter what other species we might take with us. I find the extreme environmentalist view that values an idealized nature over human life to be unforgivable form of politically correct evil. If all of humanity is not sacred, than who is to choose who should live and who should die. Not all too long ago some folks in Germany had some theories about that and acted quite boldly on their philosophical crusade. It plays out today in Bosnia, Uganda and elsewhere. How is a morally vacuous philosophy that values some theortical ideal of planetary health over humanity any better than other philosophies that breed genocide? In a previous career I lobbied the government to enhance diversity in agricultural crops rather than risking the systemic collapse of our food supply that global monocropping clearly entails. I am not unaware of the sacred as well as the practical human value of preserving the genetic diversity of the biosphere. But are we supposed to also preserve the Ebola virus in the name of genetic diversity? Is all medicine bad in that it kills off disease causing organisms? Why be an environmentalist at all except for our deep caring about the threats to humanity embodied in our species' current reckless path toward human oblivion? For those of you that might be inclined to engage in the worship of nature for nature's sake, it is a hopeless, as well as immoral cause. Such cold heartless logic is the reason that so many are opposed to a green political and economic agenda. Until we see our role as saving humanity from it's own stupidity, rather than saving a planet that needs no savior, we will get nowhere. No matter what insanity we as people might propose or create, the planet will always survive and thrive. This irrefutable truth is unconciously understood by common people, who might seem to have less vision than that which we Greens all too often feel we have a monopoly on. The most incredible and precious products of life's evolution on this planet are human wisdom and morality. These are what we must fight to preserve more than anything. I am continually both amazed and saddened at the lack of both in the environmental movement. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 11:57:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26037 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:57:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA21503 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:56:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA12526; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:50:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:45:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA12132 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:44:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA12123 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:44:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id KAA0000015746; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:50:09 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980129165216.006cee94@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:52:16 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org, kaylyn@idir.net From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Lurking consumer trying become informed Cc: kay@fern.com, GreenClips@aol.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1602 Kay, EXCELLENT suggestions for educating the public. I'm in precisely the same position as are you--i.e. trying to become more informed and your response is precisely what I was talking about in my reply to Chris's 'how to' questions--ie educate the consumer. You have offered easy-to-implement, spot-on ideas about how that can be done. From the postings I've seen in the last couple of days however, it might be difficult to find builders in many communities who are interested in pressing the issue. See Bion Howard's discouraging posting today about an award winning house: " Won NAHB Energy Value Housing award in 1996, but did not get _one_ visitor when NAHB was recently in Dallas ! Owner/builder thought that was bizarre..." The most recent Green Clips posting that follows suggests another aspect of the uneducated public problem. Today most architects aren't interested in green building. The attitude among Canadian architects, related in the Green Clips article below, is illustrated here at the University of Kansas where there are no courses offered that directly relate to energy efficient design. Not to point out only this University however, as I am sure this indictment can be heaped on most schools of architecture in the United States. When I asked here, why not? (there were, a decade earlier), the answer was that this type of design is "uninteresting" to architects today. Instead most students, and worse, their schools, (since the onus is on the profession to educate), want to design the "cool" house such as the 'coolest' that get published in the top architecture magazines. (Ask any architect if their ideal isn't to have their project published.) But then look at the sensibility that results. See any of the architecture award winners and you'll find products that fit a specific 'cool' aesthetic but are almost unlivable from a practical point of view. By and large they are austerely cold, both in terms of the aesthetics and in terms of the amount of energy it would take to heat them or the embodied energy of the building products in them. Yes, I know this is a tiny bit of an exaggeration, but in general it's true. It is a question of the tail wagging the dog so to speak. If the builders won't take the lead, nor the architects, that leaves the consumer. So why not educate us...using something like David Foley's recently posted list of what it takes to build an energy efficient house as a basis, and point by point explain what each system or term means. The Green Clips article follows: AWARD WINNERS A LIGHT SHADE OF GREEN Canadian Architect magazine's Awards of Excellence took a green turn in 1997, requiring submissions to include details of their environmental approach. But looking for designs that elegantly integrated environmental principles with other valued design considerations, jurists Brian MacKay-Lyons, Ray Cole, and Tim Scott came up short and returned to traditional award criteria. In some schemes the environmental agenda was the single idea driving the design, leaving the fundamental issues of form, composition, and meaning unattended. And while some of the stronger design work employed a passive, environmental site design ethic, much of what the jury saw had only token features like water-conserving toilets. The lack of compelling entries marrying environmental strategies with the full scope of architectural design reveals the rarity of environmentally committed clients and of architects knowledgeable and skilled in integrating these new strategies. - Canadian Architect, December 1997, p. 15, by Brian MacKay-Lyons, Ray Cole, and Tim Scott. ' GreenClips, a summary of news on sustainable building design and related government and business issues published every two weeks by Chris Hammer.' To SUBSCRIBE Address an email message to . In the body of the message (not the subject line) type: subscribe greenclips Sorry for the long post, but I have a big bugaboo about this subject and feel as frustrated as others have expressed in how to handle it. Few out there seem to care. I care because I want to build a super energy efficient house with well thought out technology that has been developed because of the overwhelming interest among the public demanding such. I don't have time to wait decades for this to happen. I think it would be worthwhile for the sensible professional people on this list to regularly write on the subject for the Fine Homebuilding type of publication. Like John Abrams does. Last night when I asked my son, who is involved in environmental issues on Nantucket if he knows a 'John Abrams' who works on Martha's Vineyard, he does, because he remembers reading what he's written in FHB or Journal of Light Construction, both of which are widely read by builders and laymen and architects. Why not try to persuade the editors of both of these to publish a regular column about energy efficient building and educate all three types of readers? To spread the burden, folks from this list could volunteer to supply the articles. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 12:46:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27782 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:46:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06875 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:44:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15997; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:39:09 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:33:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA15559 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:33:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from cerberus.nga.com (root@nga.com [198.68.22.250]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA15550 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:33:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from nga.nga.com (nga [192.168.1.10]) by cerberus.nga.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id JAA10297 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:38:48 -0800 Received: by nga.nga.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03793; Thu, 29 Jan 98 09:38:49 PST Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 09:38:49 PST From: jim@nga.com (Jim Roy) Message-Id: <9801291738.AA03793@nga.nga.com> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: Fred's rant ( short ) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1603 FlameBait Fred comes thru again. Egocentrism -- I am the center of the universe. Ethnocentism -- People like me are the center of the universe. Homocentrism -- People are the center of the universe. When enough outgrow the first, civil society is possible. When enough outgrow the second, peace is possible. Survival depends upon outgrowing the third. Accepting the sacredness of non-human life, does not diminish the sacredness of humanity, it makes it a reasonable proposition. Jim Roy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 12:58:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA28142 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:58:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA11113 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:57:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16983; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:51:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:46:11 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA16445 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:45:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA16433 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:45:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sa7-p5.dreamscape.com [209.4.228.133]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA13430; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:51:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34D0C091.6695@dreamscape.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:46:57 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org CC: Javier Barba Subject: GBlist: Lurking? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1604 Sacie, You address your last post to Kay and refer to a post I don't think I recieved, if you could forward me a copy, I would really appreciate it. This brings up a totally different thread for consideration, or maybe just the next fiber in the same thread. How large a role does the art of design play in this forulae we are searching to define. Is the aesthetic side of the design process as important as the engineering side? I have seen some truly hideous examples of energy efficient housing, scabs on the earth to rival any subdivision you could name. Shouldn't the notion of environmental harmony be extended to the visual plane as well? Can the pursuit of beauty and excellance help with the promotion of a "Green" agenda? How many of you are familiar with Javier Barba? http://www.greenarchitecture.com/home.htm I don't know much about the energy efficiency of his designs, but his work is a true sculpting of the natural medium of the immediate environment, a collaboration with the Gaia herself. In his work he seems to be primarily engaged in a dynamic process of negotiating the habitat with the surrouding environment. There are others doing this same kind of work, who are your favorites and where can we see their work? Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 13:09:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA29132 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:09:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA14516 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:08:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17807; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:02:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:57:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17293 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:57:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from saclink3.csus.edu (saclink3.csus.edu [130.86.82.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17263 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 12:56:55 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801291756.MAA17263@solstice.crest.org> Received: from PC-ANTHRO-04.mnh.csus.edu by saclink3.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA026586925; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:02:06 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "PE" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 09:40:19 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: GROWTH Reply-To: sac28787@saclink.csus.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1605 Jean, Not 'just anyone' may adopt, but most can and do have kids once their 'reproductive capabilities' are at puberty. Delaying puberty to 25 shouldn't improve the current situation, where abortion and medical complications mitigate teen childbearing. Nor does the popular game War help, as Malthus hoped. You may consider forcing those in overdeveloped nations to adopt rather than spawn more consumers. For further quasi-utopias, see Plato's Republic, a classic on the evils of compromise with ideals. The best case against the Gaia hypothesis is that Earth has not (yet) developed a cure for its human parasites, mad cow and AIDS notwithstanding. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 13:14:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA29246 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:14:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA16019 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:13:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA18243; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:07:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:02:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA17742 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:02:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA17738 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:02:07 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 25124 invoked by uid 0); 29 Jan 1998 18:07:47 -0000 Received: from ppp-6.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.196?) (198.175.11.199) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 29 Jan 1998 18:07:47 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:22:49 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: vermont-- and rural living with home power Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1606 ------------------ >Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:49:38 -0500 >From: "James.Olivia" >Subject: GBlist: vermont--slightly off topic > >i want to relocate from north carolina to vermont where i will have a >smallish home (under 1000 sq. ft.) and at least 10 acres, maybe 60% >wooded, in one of the progressive areas in the northwest part of the >state (addison and chittenden counties). > >problem is i don't have the home yet and money is very much an issue >(want to spend $80,000 or less and that's for something livable >year-round)! i was thinking that a camp or small off-the-grid home might >be the way to go and then add pv as needed. but it seems that i might >not be able to go off-grid for a while. > >i'm doing a lot of research into this but wanted to open the topic up >for comment from the group. are there any vermonters (or others) here >who can make recommendations? > >1) what are most appropriate sources for home power in vermont (for >example, micro-hydro, wind...) and what features should i look for in >the home and land in order to use these sources? >2) what are the most durable/sustainable types of home construction for >this state? >3) are there any novel ways to finance this that i may not have >considered? (i've already looked into vt local banks with conservation >loans, etc. but unfortunately i don't think that changes the total >amount of loan i qualify for). i would love to get there and then make >the land work for me/with me so i wouldn't be strapped to a 30-year >mortgage but if the cost is too high, i'd have to stay in north carolina >to make immediate substantial payments. -------------- Olivia, I'm an off-the-gridder who lives in Northern New York which has a similar climate to Vermont. I built my own very small house on twenty acres of rural "unimproved" land with no electricty lines ... which made the land much cheaper to purchase. So, here are a few of my thoughts on your questions: Go out and get a copy of Finding and Buying Your Place in the Country by . It will answer many of your questions and raise many others you never even thought about. 1) I'll assume you either plan to work out of your home, have a job already lined up, or have job skills that are in demand in a rural area. Burlington is the biggest "city" in Vermont, but it's not all that big and if you can't find employment, even living "on the cheap" can be tough. 2) Finding an affordable house. I don't know the real estate market in Vermont, but if you're willing to live in more isolated spots, such as at the end of dirt roads that might not get plowed until late in the morning making it hard to get to work on time, and that practically require a 4 wheel drive vehicle and their added expense, you will probably be able to find land or a house for a lot less than one that is "convenient". Furthermore, if there is no electricity service that will make for further savings in the land or house. But do you want to live in a situation relatively isolated from other people? 3) Wood heat is maybe half the cost of oil, even assuming you buy your wood from others, already split and delivered. However, it does take more attention and time on your part. A well insulated house heated with any type of fuel will pay for the extra insulation in a short amount of time. 4) Electricity isn't actually a very large part of most homeowner's expenses, which may explain why it is so often wasted. But if you do find that the only way you can afford to live where you want is to live where no one else wants to live -- off the grid -- then it can certainly be an important decision. Or, if you prefer to live off the grid with renewable home power for moral reasons, then I would say the economics can be affordable in comparison with utility power. Almost all home power systems make electricity that costs 5 to 20 times as much per kilowatt-hour as utility power. However, with just a little bit of effort, and not too much sacrifice or expense, it is possible to lower your usage of electricity by 5 to 20 times so that you will come out "even". Of course, if you had used the same conservation methods, "sacrifices" and expenses in a utility supplied house, you would then have tiny monthly utility bills. Basically you would be paying whatever their minimum base charge is ... probably about $10 a month, or only $120 a year. Not bad for an "essential" utility. It's too bad everyone doesn't adopt electricity conservation practices. The U.S. could literally shut down half of it's electic plants overnight with savings of billions of dollars in electric bills, and all that pollution and radiation too. As for specifics on home power, read Home Power Magazine, available at www.homepower.com or via email at hp@homepower.org. Essential reading for those interested in home power. If you can find a site with water power then that is often cheaper than photovoltaics or wind. Wind also needs the rite site to be economically competitive with photovoltaics. I've lived in various homes with all three types of electricity generation and one generalization I can make is that PVs are by far the most trouble free and reliable. It is possible to have a home powered PV system which is much more reliable than any electric grid. I have never lost power in 10 years living with a PV based system and maintence has been minimal in comparison with wind and hydro. So, I would probably suggest that even if you find a site with wind or hydro potential, that you consider making a hybrid system by also having PV. A one or two person house supplied by PV in Vermont might require an initial investment of $10,000 and have maintenance and battery replacement costs averaging $200 per year. That would be a system that would provide you with virtually all the electricity supplied needs of a conventional house: lights, radio, TV, computer, microwave, washing machine, (gas) dryer, refrigerator (but probably not a big freezer), well pump, power tools, etc, etc. In a climate like Vermont, with many cloudy winter days, it would include a back up gasoline or propane generator which would probably have to be run once a week or so during the darkest part of the winter. It would not supply electric water heating, space heating, or an electric range. All those needs can easily be supplied by other heat sources such as wood, gas, oil, or solar. These are off the top of my head guesstimates. There are a number of very knowledgeable alternative energy dealers that you can find advertisements for in Home Power Magazine. In the end, it depends greatly on what you consider your needs. I lived for a summer in a tent with one PV panel, one battery, and one small reading light that cost me a total of $400. At the time it seemed like a luxury to be able to switch on that one light at night! The simpler your needs, the lower your cost, and the lower the cost to the planet. 4) I wouldn't count on any banks thinking kindly on your enlightened goals. If you want to save money though, another option might be to "share" land. Vermont has a number of land trusts where people pool their resources to buy a chunk of land and then build houses, or even live together in the big old farmhouse. It's a step more independent than co-housing arrangements, but it still involves a lot more human cooperation than is typical for America today. Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 13:33:53 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00291 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:33:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA22052 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:32:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA19674; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:26:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:21:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA19026 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA19022 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov (mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.26]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA15349 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:26:10 -0500 Received: by mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD2CAB.AFE6A500@mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov>; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:47:33 -0500 Message-ID: From: "James.Olivia" To: "'F Unger'" Cc: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: RE: GBlist: What is Green? Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:47:32 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1607 Fred, i will just add that the fact that the earth will go on without us is a poor excuse for all the devastation we've brought upon it. i don't think we are entitled to eliminate species by our actions, deforest the planet, destroy the ozone and then continue on thinking only of ourselves. i just don't think we sit up that high. there is a living world out there (the most incredible and precious products of life's existance do not belong solely to us) and yes, life in some form will continue after us but that doesn't mean what is hear now isn't worth saving. do you really find reassurance in a planet of mutants and desert creatures that have evolved to withstand our chemical dumping and agricultural practices? the fact that it can go on like that doesn't mean it should. olivia james >---------- >From: F Unger >Sent: Thursday, January 29, 1998 11:16 AM >To: greenbuilding@crest.org >Subject: Re: GBlist: What is Green? > >Marc R., > >I'll weigh in later with my sense of what is green. > >I feel compelled to respond to your post however. It's hard to not call you >all sorts of names for a proposition that the health of the planet comes >before the health of the occupants in the homes we build. Especially coming >from such an intelligent guy that I hold in such high regard. I hope I might >help focus some of your "fuzzy thinking" and encourage you to examine the >full >logic of your proposition. > >I have to agree with Lstiburek's priorities. The fundamental logic of your >proposition would seem to suggest that we leave nature in a pristine >wilderness state and not build houses at all. If individuals don't matter, >let >them freeze in the rain and snow, right? What the heck are you doing living >in >such a nice big house instead of a hole in a dead tree? How could we ever >build a green building using the logic of your priorities? The act of >building >at all violates the fundamental principle. > >Mark (Marcoplos) is absolutely right "until we receive incontrovertible >evidence that it is impossible, our goal should be to achieve success with >both" the environment and human health. If that is impossible than human >health is surely first priority. > >When the dinosaurs were wiped out, by whatever wiped them out, fossil >evidence >suggests that some 75% of then existing species were wiped out with them. Yet >the planet and the biosphere recovered and thrived. At least for the next >several million years, it always will, no matter what we as people might do. >If we kill ourselves off with our own stupidity, life will still go on quite >nicely, no matter what other species we might take with us. > >I find the extreme environmentalist view that values an idealized nature over >human life to be unforgivable form of politically correct evil. > >If all of humanity is not sacred, than who is to choose who should live and >who should die. Not all too long ago some folks in Germany had some theories >about that and acted quite boldly on their philosophical crusade. It plays >out >today in Bosnia, Uganda and elsewhere. How is a morally vacuous philosophy >that values some theortical ideal of planetary health over humanity any >better >than other philosophies that breed genocide? > >In a previous career I lobbied the government to enhance diversity in >agricultural crops rather than risking the systemic collapse of our food >supply that global monocropping clearly entails. I am not unaware of the >sacred as well as the practical human value of preserving the genetic >diversity of the biosphere. > >But are we supposed to also preserve the Ebola virus in the name of genetic >diversity? Is all medicine bad in that it kills off disease causing >organisms? > >Why be an environmentalist at all except for our deep caring about the >threats >to humanity embodied in our species' current reckless path toward human >oblivion? > >For those of you that might be inclined to engage in the worship of nature >for >nature's sake, it is a hopeless, as well as immoral cause. Such cold >heartless >logic is the reason that so many are opposed to a green political and >economic >agenda. Until we see our role as saving humanity from it's own stupidity, >rather than saving a planet that needs no savior, we will get nowhere. > >No matter what insanity we as people might propose or create, the planet will >always survive and thrive. This irrefutable truth is unconciously understood >by common people, who might seem to have less vision than that which we >Greens >all too often feel we have a monopoly on. > >The most incredible and precious products of life's evolution on this planet >are human wisdom and morality. These are what we must fight to preserve more >than anything. I am continually both amazed and saddened at the lack of both >in the environmental movement. > >Fred >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 13:56:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA00839 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:56:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA28835 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA21011; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:48:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:43:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA20522 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:42:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from hevanet.com (root@hevanet.com [198.5.254.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA20518 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 13:42:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.119.60.107] (pa-ppp22.hevanet.com [204.119.60.107]) by hevanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14999 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:48:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801291848.KAA14999@hevanet.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 10:53:40 -0800 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: obrien@hevanet.com (Michael O'Brien) Subject: GBlist: What Is Green? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1608 Hi, All-- Good, thought-provoking discussion! One element that seems essential to long building life, that I haven't noticed yet in the lists, is pleasure. To be sustainable, don't buildings need to have delight and surprise? Humor, even? One reason Bernard Maybeck's buildings are so wonderful, is that they include so much of the unexpected. The Christian Science church in Berkeley looks very elegant and classically handsome on the exterior--sort of a blend of Japanese and Gothic--then you realize on close inspection that the windows are industrial metal type, same as you would see on a warehouse of similar vintage. And the cladding is industrial mineral-fiber panels. And the fluted Romanesque columns holding up the wisteria are actually cast concrete. As you realize that he made a beautiful, timeless building out of no-account materials, your sense of discovery and admiration and pleasure grows. He oriented an enormous set of windows west--as we solar buffs know, a major faux pas--then covered them with wisteria vines, so that in late afternoons the interior of the church is painted with the most gorgeous shadow patterns you've ever seen; constantly changing like firelight, a living sumi-e ink painting. When the church was built in 1910, most people considered it shocking that he used low-class materials for a church, and they could not understand why he made it so ugly and offensive to their tastes, and someone threw a rock through one of the windows. Now it's considered a national treasure. What seems to have changed is our ability to set aside our previous expectations and experience the church directly--in fact, the building almost insists on pulling us in, as if it were speaking to us softly and intimately, like a close friend or lover. And why have his buildings lasted so long? One--the Palace of Fine Arts--is so beloved that San Franciscans raised millions of dollars to save and restore it. Roman in style, the building was one of the exhibition halls for the Panama-Pacific Exposition in 1915. You know the type--classical wedding cake stuff intended to evoke Greece and Rome and make people feel like America was civilized. On the colonnade, Maybeck placed draped figures up on the cornices--and placed them so they are turned away from the viewer with their heads buried in their arms, as if they were grieving. At the time the idea outraged a lot of people (didn't fit their idea of civic pride) but today, those figures arouse our curiosity and contemplation and empathy--the Palace seems like a peaceful memorial for all who have gone before us. He transformed the building from something ordinary like a bank, into an exceptional emotional experience. Murray Silverstein and Schlomo Angel used a lot of these ideas regarding delight and surprise in A Pattern Language, like the "zen view". You can esaily imagine them writing the book in one of Maybeck's or Julia Morgan's houses. There's a good Maybeck book written by Sally Woodbridge with excellent photos by Richard Barnes. If you are ever in the Bay Area, his buildings make for a rewarding day trip. In Berkeley, the church has tours on Sunday afternoons after the service. The Palace of Fine Arts is right next to the Exploratorium, a kid paradise that grown-ups also are permitted to enjoy. Best, Mike ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 14:14:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01252 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:14:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA04685 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22651; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:07:53 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:02:17 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA21739 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:01:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin51.mx.aol.com (mrin51.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.161]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21727 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:01:52 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin51.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA21272 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:06:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:06:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980129140652_569235062@mrin51.mx> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: What is Green? (Rob Harrison) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1609 Clarence, >>You're probably aware of Malcohm Wells designs for underground homes in the late 70's...planted roofs in combination with really wonderful freestanding trellis work right up against the building...<< Actually only slightly--I'll have to investigate more. Thanks for the tip! >>I am not aware of Bernard Maybeck. Could you post a little more info about him? << Bernard Maybeck was an architect who practiced mainly in San Francisco and Berkeley, CA from the 1890s through the late 1930s, in an ideosyncratic version of the Craftsman style. He was a comtemporary of the brothers Green. His best known works are the Christian Science church in Berkeley and the Palace of Fine Arts in SF, but I find his inventive houses the most inspiring. Besides being, as I said, a master of the trellis, he had a complete reverence for wood. (Which I think makes his work "green" in spirit.) He designed some amazing and beautiful roof trusses. After the 1923 SF fire, he experimented with Bubblestone, an insulating cellular concrete, which he made panels out of, and combined with wood frame to great effect.(A material I'd like to revisit someday...) Lots of books available. I have this one (because it has the most pictures!): "Bernard Maybeck, Visionary Architect," text by Sally B. Woodbridge, photos by Richard Barnes, Abbeville Press, 1992. Rob Harrison Seattle *** Robert Harrison Architects http://members.aol.com/rhdesign --lyrical sustainable design-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 14:15:04 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01268 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:15:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA04758 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22700; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:08:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:02:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA21795 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:02:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin53.mail.aol.com (mrin53.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.163]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21789 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:02:18 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin53.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA10686; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:06:56 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:06:56 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980129140656_-963462921@mrin53> To: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu, greenbuilding@crest.org cc: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@valley.net Subject: Re: Re: GBlist: What is Green? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1610 Sacie said... >>or maybe read Aldo van Eyck or Norberg-Schultz. (The essence of dwelling) << Seconded! Both were incredibly inspiring to me as an architecture student in the '70s. I'd add Gaston Bachelard's "Poetics of Space" to that list. Rob Harrison Seattle *** Robert Harrison Architects http://members.aol.com/rhdesign --lyrical sustainable design-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 14:15:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01278 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:15:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA04846 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:14:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA22752; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:08:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:02:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA21814 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:02:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin54.mail.aol.com (mrin54.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.164]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA21797 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:02:20 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin54.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA21882; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:07:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 14:07:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980129140701_438413558@mrin54> To: dmfoley@acadia.net, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: What is Green? Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1611 Well, thought I'd throw the principles behind our work into this discussion of "what is green." I wrote these in 1992 when I began my practice here in Seattle, as a personal "manifesto." (Jorg will know where and who that word comes from.) I hand these out to prospective clients. If they still want to work with us after reading them, there's a good chance it'll be a good fit! They owe a _lot_ to William McDonoughs's Hannover Principles, the writings of Wendell Berry, and writings by and conversations with my teachers Peter Pragnell and Alberto Perez-Gomez at U of Toronto in the '70s, and more recently David Rousseau, Bruce Coldham, and Tom Bender. lyrical sustainable design.... PRINCIPLES * Live, design and work in a way which is consistent with deeply held values and ideals. Recognize personal responsibility for the diverse implications of design decisions. Build consensus, share ideas, cooperate and collaborate. * Find inspiration and models in ongoing ecological processes. Accommodate and celebrate the cycle of the seasons, days and nights, and other natural rhythms. Value all stages of human life. Honor diversity. * Preserve, enhance and express the unique and special qualities of each site, region and climate; local history and culture. Make site-specific works which, like maps, orient their inhabitants and allow them to "place" themselves, and to dwell, in that context. * Think locally, act locally. Maintain existing community ties and support the development of new ones. Work towards making local life as independent and self-sufficient as possible. * Make the sources of materials, food, water and energy understandable and controllable. Make the processes and cycles of production, consumption, "waste" and re-production visible. * Ask "What is enough?" Be frugal and humane in the acquisition and use of energy, and natural and financial resources. Live on the interest of the natural world instead of depleting its capital. Allow for expansion and change of use without extensive or expensive remaking. * Begin design with poetic dreams and memories of lived experiences and ideal places, rather than with abstractions of art, science or technology. Make places that reflect the passage of time and allow their stories to be told. * Gracefully support the activities of everyday life. Make places that engage all of the senses. Make evocative places that invite modification, enhancement and embroidery to suit the personal needs and desires of the people who use them. Make places that respond to affection. Rob Harrison Seattle *** Robert Harrison Architects http://members.aol.com/rhdesign --lyrical sustainable design-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 18:36:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA08715 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:36:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA25560 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:35:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05338; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:29:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:22:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04687 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:22:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA04682 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:22:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA06444; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:27:29 -0800 Message-ID: <34D10F6F.C8740349@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 15:23:27 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Roy CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Fred's rant ( short ) References: <9801291738.AA03793@nga.nga.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1612 I can't say much more in reply to Fred's post than Jim did . Instead I'll just copy it here again and because I liked it so much I might just repost it every day. I lied, I do have to respond to one statement. Fred wrote: The most incredible and precious products of life's evolution on this planet are human wisdom and morality. These are what we must fight to preserve more than anything. I am continually both amazed and saddened at the lack of both in the environmental movement. Well I just can't respond without facial expressions - its just too hyperbolical for words. I do have to ask, just who is defending the faith? George Lukas, Disney? Fred Jim Roy wrote: > FlameBait Fred comes thru again. > > Egocentrism -- I am the center of the universe. > Ethnocentism -- People like me are the center of the universe. > Homocentrism -- People are the center of the universe. > > When enough outgrow the first, civil society is possible. > When enough outgrow the second, peace is possible. > Survival depends upon outgrowing the third. > > Accepting the sacredness of non-human life, does not diminish > the sacredness of humanity, it makes it a reasonable proposition. > > Jim Roy > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 18:39:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA09155 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:39:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA26548 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:38:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA05541; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:32:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:25:58 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA04984 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:25:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA04979 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:25:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id RAA0000005623; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:30:54 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980129233254.006acde8@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:32:54 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1613 Chris, you said: >>>Builders that build homes that meet the Model Energy Code (or any state or >locale-defined energy performance standard) are buiding the LEAST EFFICIENT >buildings allowed by law. << I don't think anyone understands this. 'Model Energy Code' is a misleading misnomer that allows the consumer to presume that this house is better than the average. A local builder, one of the few around here who has a pretty good understanding of energy efficient building, told me that he followed an 'Energy Star' code when he built a spec house last year and not one potential buyer was either familiar with system, nor cared. Many of you have pointed out that constructing a tight well-insulated house without any funky gadgetry will alone offer considerable payback in terms of comfort and energy savings. Most builders don't take the trouble to build tightly and most consumers have no idea what to look for--or even if they do, unless they watch it go together, can't see if it's done properly. I think it is like all educational matters, it takes a long time and a constant drum beat to get people to learn about anything--either that or another oil shock. A few months ago I read of a builder in Spirit Lake IA who beats his own drum via the newspaper and mostly, doing it the simple old fashioned way, by advertising his energy efficient expertise. His 'products' are well known and I presume he has been well rewarded monetarily. I shouldn't think it would be that difficult for knowledgeable builders in one area/town to go together to jointly advertise, regularly and often, their craftsmanship and what it means. Saying something is energy efficient doesn't mean much to most; it need to be clearly spelled out and then repeated often. >How can we get consumers to demand a guaranteed energy bill just like the >warranty/guarantee on their appliances? Why is this not something we EXPECT? >We have LEARNED to establish performance expectations for our cars... why not >our homes? What is necessary to TEACH consumers to establish higher >performance expectations for their major life purchase? Think you need to convice the good builder first----this speaks to the self-interest which anyone in business has regarding the bottom line. It makes good cents to publicize what some can do much better than the rest. And say it again and again; eventually the consumer will hear and remember. It's basic marketing and it works. This forum is wonderful for us, but here you are preaching to and teaching the choir. You've got to get out there and talk to the masses. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 18:54:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA09551 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:54:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA02234 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:53:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA06687; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:47:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:40:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA05959 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:40:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05951 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id RAA0000012722; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:44:44 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980129234644.006cf404@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:46:44 -0600 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: Lurking? Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1614 Chuck, big mix up--seems that Kay posted to another listing that has a similar name to the greenbuilding----I think I've copied her posting to everyone now but am doing it again. It was good I thought. Sacie Lambertson We had our first Sustainable Building Coalition chapter meeting of 1998 > last night. Attendance was not good. This event was advertised via > local media, some of our members participated in a phone tree and I > personally FAXed many of my clients (builders & architects & contractors > & others). I'm a consumer lurking here, trying to learn more about energy efficient buildings and techniques. From my point of view, you may be trying to educate the wrong bunch of people. What most of us don't know about how buildings work would fill several freight trains. Until a few years ago, I had had no experience around construction or builders other than being talked down to -- a variant of "don't worry your pretty little head". Information readily available to me in books mainly concerned whether or not you used unfaced or faced attic insulation, etc., and left me with the general impression that the way to make an energy- efficient house was to caulk the heck out of everything, have windows that you couldn't open, and interior air quality that OSHA would have a fit about in a workplace. And a good share of the information in books was contradictory (use unfaced batts in the attic except on alternate Tuesdays in months with an R). Until I married into a family with a construction business background, no one had ever talked with me about how a building was supposed to work, and why this technique was better than that one. The information that I really wanted was largely buried in technical and trade journals I didn't have easy access to. Organizations like solar housing councils tended to hand me the same meagre information I'd already found at the local libary. Five minutes of personal contact do NOT make an informed consumer. And I *still* don't have a good grasp on how to spot an already constructed energy efficient building, other than look at the last year's power bills (which may not match my living patterns in the slightest). I'm learning, but it's slow. If you want demand for your product -- well constructed, energy-efficient buildings -- I think you're going to need to educate those of us who buy them. Good builders are busy, but a two or three class series through the adult ed programs or the library, focusing on practicalities of spotting good construction and what the payback period is likely to be for improved construction techniques may help solve some of your problems. If you do so, I'd urge you to focus on the building practices and climatic conditions in your own communities, with real examples. Other ideas: offer materials that can be incorporated into high school science curricula. How *do* you measure heat flow through a wall? How about constructing a few transportable wall sections that a physical sciences teacher could borrow for class measurements. Or cooperate with a local science museum on an exhibit on "how buildings work/how buildings fail" (which reminds me that I'd like to go bend some ears on our local exhibits development people... I think it would make a good traveling exhibit). Or... or.... or... There *are* a lot of us out here who'd sooner put our money into good construction techniques rather than granite kitchen counters. We just can't find the right people to talk with (trade shows are lousy for this: major information overload.) You're frustrated because you can't find us. Don't hide your light under a basket... let us know you're out there, and that we *can* ask questions and get answers that make sense. Kay Lancaster kay@fern.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 19:43:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA10737 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:43:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA15418 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:41:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09816; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:36:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:29:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA08991 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:28:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo30.mail.aol.com (imo30.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.168]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA08982 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:28:53 -0500 (EST) From: Bnartist@aol.com Received: from Bnartist@aol.com by imo30.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4NPLa08035 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:31:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <52c5b27d.34d11f73@aol.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:31:44 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Resource Efficiency Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 41 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1615 Could everbody please keep messages short? Sincerely Greg Flynn ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 19:49:58 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA10901 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:49:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA16782 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:48:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10455; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:43:01 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:36:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA09708 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:35:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09689 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:35:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA10994; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 16:41:06 -0800 Message-ID: <34D120AF.20C079A8@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 16:37:03 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Marc J. Rosenbaum" CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Cost of labor References: <2014161@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1616 A late reply. Yes I agree that scaling back desires or consumption would have effect. But the effect would be and increasingly is hierarchical. A certain amount of class amelioration has taken effect through the availability of cheap goods. Real goods - the stuff life is made of and that sustain life have never been cheap and never will be and its a good question as to whether there will ever be equitable distribution of such goods. The ameliorative or palliative types of goods, made of 'cheap' materials in 'wasteful' manner have been our illusion of both wealth (relative) and mobility. As we discover that this kind of sustenance is not sustaining but rather is a having a negative effect a voluntary or forced reduction of consumption will not affect a greater distribution of the 'real goods';health, food, clean things, etc. Rather the availability of real goods will become as it has always been, especially under such economic orders, restricted. It will affect a cleaner environment (relatively) but the products of that environment will not be accessible to the greater public - rather the public will be feeling the full (unmediated, unfiltered, untreated, un-superstructured) effect of the current state of our water, air, ground. Few cultures in history have valued their poor (or their children). They are killed, starved, enslaved, indentured, conscripted, incarcerated, ignored or worse experimented upon. Our morality has held them to be lazy, disabled, ill, poor (ironically), different, generally of no-account. Very few cultures have ever admitted to any responsibility in the manufacture of their poor (or their pollutants for that matter) If John Straubes anecdotes about the poor are indicative of attitudes of people supportive of current economic structures then we can expect a large part of our population politely ignored in any environmental change of any significance. I just hope that none of the adherents finds themselves jobless living next to a post-consumer unregulated or uninspected plastic recycling facility This post is getting long what I attempted to say is that scaling back on our desires for general goods is not a solution because these goods are the only goods our economic culture can afford to supply us with. (at a cost that heavily mortgages any future) As that supply is reduced it will affect a change in who can afford the balance and who lives with the balance of pollution. I'm sorry for the denseness. I'm young enough that these thoughts and questions are both troubling and my ablility to express them seems overly complex . But I'm old enough to appreciate attempts to both clarify and simplify. Marc J. Rosenbaum wrote: > --- John Salmen wrote: > I would agree that labour is costing too much in relation to materials but only > to > say that the cost of materials is too low and I would also add that the cost of > labour is too low to sustain craft (being equally relevant for sustainablility > as > an aspect of craft is the conscientious use of materials - another good > potential > lesson from the pursuit of SB). > > So we have two costs that are undervalued and a society that cannot afford to > pay > more? > --- end of quoted material --- > > So I'm going to take a stab at the problem beneath these problems - which is > that we in the industrialized countries want TOO MUCH STUFF - we can either > have small well crafted homes with fewer high-quality things, or large houses > poorly made filled with mostly junk. If we could scale our material desires > back significantly, we could pay the real costs of materials AND a decent wage > to all. > > Is this way too simplistic? > > Marc > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 20:01:44 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA11130 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:01:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA19671 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:00:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11528; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:54:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:47:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10702 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:47:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA10698 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:47:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA00185 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:53:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:53:20 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: David Foley's excellent energy eff primer To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199801290207.VAA09776@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1617 > Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:16:00 -0600 > From: "David F. Lambertson" > Subject: GBlist: Re: David Foley's excellent energy eff. primer > > I enjoyed seeing David Foley's excellent, succinctly written primer about > how to build a good energy efficient house. I've always understood that to > take maximum advantage of a passive solar design though, the building > shouldn't be more than 7 degrees off of true south. Will be interested in > comments on this. Sacie Lambertson I too wanted to compliment David Foley on his excellent summary. If every desinger/builder simply follwed that short summary we could svae quadrillions of Btus per year! I wish to remind people of the wonderful primer at: www.its-canada.com/reed (A bit too much poly-centric but otherwise ...) +/- 15 degrees means within +/-10% of the maximum possible enrgy collected. But this simple calculation does not consider the actual distribution of sunlight over the day nor the actual heat storage capacity of the building. East facing windows are certainly better collectors than pure south ones in our climate because we are probabilistically more likely to get early morning sun than afternoon sun. Secondly, by morning the house has cooled off from many hours of no sunlight. So, the sooner the early morning hating gets going, the less likely you are to use backup heat, and thus the lower total annual costs. The bigger problem with east facing glass is summer shading, but this is not that difficult if you stay within 30 degress. An architect I know, who has desinged and built more than a dozen healthy passive homes said his best performing houe faced almost 45 deg east (in Sun Valley, Idaho). ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 20:02:30 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA11143 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:02:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA19866 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:01:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11625; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:55:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:48:35 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA10775 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:48:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10769 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:48:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29678; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:52:27 -0700 Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:52:27 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Bnartist@aol.com Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Cyberspace (was resource) Efficiency In-Reply-To: <52c5b27d.34d11f73@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1618 On Thu, 29 Jan 1998 Bnartist@aol.com wrote: > Could everbody please keep messages short? > Sincerely Greg Flynn Greg: You are very right! We desperately need abstracts from many, not dissertations from few. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 20:06:37 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA11213 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:06:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA21017 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:05:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11960; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:59:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:52:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11318 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:52:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA11300 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:52:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA25927 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 16:58:47 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 29 Jan 1998 16:55:45 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: UNWISE ENVIRONMENTALISTS To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAA11303 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1619 John & Jim, I donÕt think I read FFÕs (Flamebait FredÕs) post that you quote from; it saddens me to admit that I frequently delete his stuff without reading. (If we canÕt TRY to listen to those we disagree with, weÕre a sad lot.) But his bit about the lack of Òwisdom and moralityÓ in the environmental movement struck a chord with me, because of a local situation. There is a fellow who has been a staunch and respected environmentalist around northern California for years, who recently decided that the right way to go was to sit down with Òthe enemyÓ and try to work out compromises. He feels, and I agree, that we have got to go back to the idea that weÕre all in this together. I would have to say that the response from a good portion of the environmental community has been unwise and immoral: they have all but tarred and feathered this guy. My point is this: we have to guard against being doctrinaire, no matter what our philosophy. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 20:10:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA11289 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:10:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA22034 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:09:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12241; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:03:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:56:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11741 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:56:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cerberus.nga.com (root@nga.com [198.68.22.250]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11728 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:56:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from nga.nga.com (nga [192.168.1.10]) by cerberus.nga.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA12601; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:02:02 -0800 Received: by nga.nga.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05608; Thu, 29 Jan 98 17:02:06 PST Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 17:02:06 PST From: jim@nga.com (Jim Roy) Message-Id: <9801300102.AA05608@nga.nga.com> To: terrain@cow-net.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Fred's rant ( short ) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1620 Thanks for the vote of confidence, John. Repost as desired. Too bad the doing is so much harder than the saying... While I can't agree with his words, I suspect the Fred's deeds have done far more to turn us from the brink than have mine. If he keeps building those sun rooms, I'm happy to wait for his conversion to paganism 'till the local chapter of Earth First! start holding sunday mass. :-) Jim Roy > I can't say much more in reply to Fred's post than Jim did . Instead I'll > just copy it here again and because I liked it so much I might just repost > it every day. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 20:27:07 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA11660 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:27:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA26418 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:25:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA13029; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:20:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:13:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA12596 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA12591 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:13:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA26571 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:19:43 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 29 Jan 1998 17:17:38 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: FAVORITES To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id UAA12592 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1621 Chuck, This probably isn't what you had in mind, because I don't think this architect thinks particularly about energy efficiency, though he does enjoy using local materials. Take a look--many of the images take awhile to load--at someone who is wonderfully idiosyncratic and nature-inspired. If we had the concept of "national treasure" in our culture, James Hubbell might just be one. http://www.sandiegoart.com/JHubbell Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 21:04:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA12446 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:04:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA05312 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:03:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15692; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:57:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:50:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA15105 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:50:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15093; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:50:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA01550; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:55:53 -0800 Message-ID: <34D13236.A965FFFA@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 17:51:50 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" , "strawbale@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: Waste/Waste not (short-hah) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1622 I have some general conceptual questions for the faecal compost crowd and everyone else interested in water/waste systems. Composting toilets generally have an excess liquid component which depending on the system is either drained off as a 'tea' or attempts are made to deal with it through evaporation or leach bed disposal. Nitrates as a component of this material represent both a resource and a pollutant depending on usage and care of usage. It is somewhat possible within a composter design to affect some denitrification. Is this desirable? Thats the basic question. Here are some additional thoughts I wouldn't mind putting out for question/insput. Most of our waste treatment systems ' waste' some nutrient element in process or/and in addition they make excessive use of water and in some cases land. It is difficult to think of balancing effects especially ones that are prescriptive for more than a single household. Human waste is an extreme catch-22 (where did that phrase come from) as a resource it requires very careful use (either by rote or by handbook) and as a waste to be protected from it suffers a similar fate. Do we purify our waste or do we recycle it. Recycling it may engender further pollution or environmental degradation - purifying it affects a nutrient balance. Closed system approaches (recycling of wastewater) come into the category of purifying. Please do not mention living machines (even though I am a proponent of the concept it does amount to enslaving other organisms in a cumbersome collection of plexiglass containers and yes all biological activities involve organisms and I am sure some might be quite happy in a plexi box, personally I would prefer concrete, and maybe a chair or cushion) Jorg, Greg: This may not qualify as a short abstract but as I am working on water systems I find I am collapsing under a load of . . . moral imperatives. Help and I'll try to get shorter! John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 21:35:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA13124 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:35:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA13901 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:34:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17625; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:28:31 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:22:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA16993 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:22:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16987 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:22:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.104.103] (usrts1p103.port.net [207.237.104.103]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA28933 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:28:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801300228.VAA28933@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Demand Radiant Floor Heat Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 21:28:23 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Green Building List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id VAA16988 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1623 Sgrìobh Speireag, >if you trickle-charge your big mass, why have it at all (apart >from solar gains)? Just insulate the outside and trickle-charge your >lightweight inside at whatever level will keep you comfortable. Thanks for taking the time to explain your thinking so thoroughly. As i haven't had any direct experience with masonry heaters I've found your explainations to be very informative. Please let us know if you go ahead with the demand supplied radiant floor idea and how it turns out. Clarence ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 21:35:32 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA13130 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:35:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA13939 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:34:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA17629; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:28:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:23:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17006 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:22:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA16995 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:22:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.104.103] (usrts1p103.port.net [207.237.104.103]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA28942 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:28:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801300228.VAA28942@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Lurking? Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 21:28:27 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1624 Chuck wrote: > There are others doing this same kind of work, who are your >favorites and where can we see their work? I checked out the Javier Barba page. I found it......... well.... I guess someone has to design pavillons for the Rothchilds. But he reminded me alot of the Cape Cod architect I mentioned last night in my reply to the trellis post, Malcolm Wells. I ve always found the unpretentousness of underground buildings very appealing. The idea of physically integrating the building into the surrounding rural landscape is nicely complimentary to sustainable technologies, or can be. There is also Don Metz and Rob Roy who have all authored many an underground building book available at libraries or amazon.com. Also James Wines< http://www.aloha.net/~laumana/intarc.html> and Robert Hotten < http://www.aloha.net/~laumana/index.html>.I've lost track of the southwest architect, David Wright, after he did a nice little solar house at Sea Ranch Calif. in the 70's. I would really like to know what he's been up to. Do you know anything about David Wright recent work? Who are the others you refer to? Do you know of anyone working above ground along those lines? Best Regards, Clarence Dodge cdodge@interport.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 21:42:35 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA13278 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA15918 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:41:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18588; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:35:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:30:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17804 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:29:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from denmark.it.earthlink.net (denmark-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.22]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17800 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:29:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.221] (1Cust221.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.221]) by denmark.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA18468; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 18:35:13 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801300235.SAA18468@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: UNWISE ENVIRONMENTALISTS Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 18:38:24 -0000 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan To: "Jean Gallagher" , "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id VAA17801 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1625 Jean I think this is a result of posts that are... well extremely verbose. The number of words is not a good measure of effective communication. I'd wager that everything we say could be said better with half the words. Can I suggest that brevity is a service to the group? Bruce >it saddens me to admit that I frequently delete his stuff without reading. >(If we can¹t TRY to listen to those we disagree with, we¹re a sad lot.) -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 21:42:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA13284 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:42:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA15957 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:41:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18601; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:35:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:30:23 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA17878 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:30:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA17841 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 21:30:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-21.topher.net [208.199.183.227]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05398 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:27:08 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801300227.UAA05398@mail.topher.net> From: "Paul Westbrook" To: "greenbuilder" Subject: GBlist: Ripley - Proof of Global Warming? Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:58:46 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1626 I know my atlas is old, but Ripley looks well inland. If it is coastal then I think that global warming is doing some major ice cap melting! I find it in the eastern edge of Somerset County, 28 miles northeast of Skowhegan and just west of Dexter. Thanks for the checklist of items. The house design currently fits it perfectly Back to my original question - The owner lives in Dallas and will only be there occasionally and he wants to shut off all the systems and still make sure the house does not freeze in the winter. I've got all the data I need, I just lack experience in that climate. I know that the area gets 59% of the available sun in the winter, but I don't know how that comes. Are there periods of 5 or more cloudy days in a row, or do you get a solar recharge day at least every three or four? Another interesting twist is that I've always heard the "rule of thumb" of +/- 15 degrees to solar south is the ideal orientation. +/- 30 is the max acceptable. At least we all agree on south - showing a distinct northern hemisphere bias! Thanks, Paul *************** David wrote . . . . Well, I'll be damned...I found Ripley on a map of Maine this morning. Way Downeast, on the coast near Harrington. That is one of the mildest winter climates in Maine, except for the far southern coast. Between 6500 and 7000 heating degree days instead of the more usual 8000 plus. BUT - not a lot of sun on that part of the coast and lots of foggy, chilly days. I'd lean more toward the suprinsulated approach than the "massive-passive" approach in that particular microclimate. Thanks to Sacie for complimenting what I wrote - compared to what others on this list know, I thought it was pretty lame, but thanks anyway. And thanks to everyone who gave us ideas about the commercial building retrofit - - we'll keep you posted on any developments. David Foley ****************** ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 22:21:01 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA14115 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:21:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA27008 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:19:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA20522; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:14:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:08:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA20177 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:08:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from transfer.usit.net (root@transfer.usit.net [208.10.171.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA20171 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:08:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (DIALUP277.TNKNO.USIT.NET [208.24.75.25]) by transfer.usit.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA00231 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:14:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:14:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801300314.WAA00231@transfer.usit.net> X-Sender: bfloyd@pop.usit.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: betsy hooper & buddy floyd Subject: GBlist: Architctural education and Green building Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1627 Sacie was concerned that architecture schools do not teach courses that relate to energy efficient design. I would differ with that. All of the fundamentals necessary to doing energy efficient design were covered in my education under the guise of building technology, HVAC, etc. What I did percieve missing was a moral imperative to apply this knowledge. Many of the students I knew percieved themselves as artists rather than technicians. As for Architects taking the lead, unfortunately we all must feed ourselves. If the client won't buy sustainable design, I can't make him build it. Sadly we can only do a limited amount in the context of the current marketplace. Which is not to say I'm giving up. Only taking a sober look at the bigger picture. Betsy Hooper ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 22:38:08 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA14410 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:38:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA02000 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:36:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA22004; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:31:13 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:25:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA21094 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:25:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA21083 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:25:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA23820 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:29:56 -0500 Message-id: <2077977@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 29 Jan 98 22:35:40 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: David Foley's excellent energy eff primer To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1628 --- You wrote: So, the sooner the early morning hating gets going --- end of quoted material --- I thought we were all going to try to be nice... ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 22:45:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA14552 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:45:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA04355 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:44:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA22680; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:33:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA22204 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:33:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA22197 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:33:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.38.252.11] (ts9port11.port.net [207.38.252.11]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA06731 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:38:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801300338.WAA06731@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: David Foley's excellent energy eff primer Date: Thu, 29 Jan 98 22:39:14 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1629 John Straub wrote: >East facing windows are certainly better >collectors than pure south ones in our climate because we are >probabilistically more likely to get early morning sun than afternoon >sun. Secondly, by morning the house has cooled off from many hours of >no sunlight. So, the sooner the early morning hating gets going, the less >likely you are to use backup heat, and thus the lower total annual costs. That's music to my ears! I have an easterly facing hillside in northern VT I hope to build on someday and I've been concerned what a southerly siting would do to the design. Thanks for pointing that out. Clarence Dodge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 23:05:48 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA14977 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:05:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA10017 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:04:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA24457; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:58:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:53:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA23671 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:52:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA23633; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 22:51:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA04168; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:57:03 -0800 Message-ID: <34D14E9A.9F48B098@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 19:52:58 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bruce Sullivan CC: Jean Gallagher , Green Building Subject: Re: GBlist: UNWISE ENVIRONMENTALISTS References: <199801300235.SAA18468@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1630 Its true - brevity implies a short life span. I've noticed the threads that encourage us all to long responses have a certain brevity in themselves. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Bruce Sullivan wrote: > Jean > > I think this is a result of posts that are... well extremely verbose. The number of words is not a good measure of effective communication. I'd wager that everything we say could be said better with half the words. Can I suggest that brevity is a service to the group? > > Bruce > > >it saddens me to admit that I frequently delete his stuff without reading. > >(If we can¹t TRY to listen to those we disagree with, we¹re a sad lot.) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 > Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 > Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com > ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 23:33:20 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA15385 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:33:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA16996 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:31:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA25590; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:26:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:21:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25272 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:20:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA25268 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:20:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id UAA04759; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:26:08 -0800 Message-ID: <34D1556C.64425CE4@cow-net.com> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:22:04 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jim Roy , "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Fred's rant ( short ) References: <9801300102.AA05608@nga.nga.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1631 I wasn't voting, just very impressed by your comments. Though I don't feel as good about the tribute to Fred. It is conciliatory to be gracious or gracious to be conciliatory but words can be as effective or as revealing as deeds. I've been in the exclusively doing mode for over a decade and the only really effective accomplishments I think have been personal - a certain resolve and a little more knowledge as opposed to just information, but I will certainly not gain anything from such experience if accountability is not a component. I am a little less inclined to be conciliatory in the face of what I called hyperbole but I will at some point (I hope) simply be able to call it bullshit with some greater confidence. John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S. Jim Roy wrote: > Thanks for the vote of confidence, John. > > Repost as desired. > > Too bad the doing is so much harder than the saying... > > While I can't agree with his words, I suspect the Fred's deeds > have done far more to turn us from the brink than have mine. > If he keeps building those sun rooms, I'm happy to wait for > his conversion to paganism 'till the local chapter of Earth > First! start holding sunday mass. :-) > > Jim Roy > > > I can't say much more in reply to Fred's post than Jim did . Instead I'll > > just copy it here again and because I liked it so much I might just repost > > it every day. > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Thu Jan 29 23:42:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id XAA15602 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:42:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA19411 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:41:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA26032; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:35:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:30:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id XAA25735 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:30:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.cwo.com (mail.cwo.com [207.49.29.8]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA25730 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 23:30:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (usr39.cwo.com [207.173.173.49]) by mail.cwo.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA22036 for ; Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:35:50 -0800 Message-Id: <199801300435.UAA22036@mail.cwo.com> Reply-To: From: "Nehemiah I. Stone" To: Subject: GBlist: David Wright? Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 20:21:29 -0800 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1632 David Wright is alive and well in Nevada City, California. Still designing. I don't have his number, address or email, but a good friend of his (used to work within his firm) who is a mechanical engineer in Nevada City has a web site called "The Energy Guy." His name's Ray Darby. Surely he could tell you more of what DW is up to. Nehemiah Stone > > From: "C. Dodge" > > Chuck wrote: > > There are others doing this same kind of work, who are your > >favorites and where can we see their work? > >>.I've lost track of the > southwest architect, David Wright, after he did a nice little solar > house at Sea Ranch Calif. in the 70's. I would really like to know what > he's been up to. Do you know anything about David Wright recent work? >(snip)> > Best Regards, > Clarence Dodge > cdodge@interport.net > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 07:57:49 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA23316 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:57:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA04507 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:56:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA05884; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:50:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:43:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA05533 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:43:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from kirkwood.hoosier.net (kirkwood.hoosier.net [206.106.64.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA05529 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:43:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from 206.106.67.55 (pm1-23.hoosier.net [206.106.67.55]) by kirkwood.hoosier.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA26059 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:49:03 -0500 Message-ID: <34D1CC6A.164B@bloomington.in.us> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:49:47 -0500 From: John Bower Organization: The Healthy House Institute X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greenbuilding Discussion Subject: GBlist: What is Green? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1633 RE: Green vs. healthy (with tongue slightly in cheek) With regards to environmental problems: human beings are both part of the problem, and our hope for solutions. So, we have a couple of directions we can go in. First, we can build houses that are healthy for the occupants, so they will have the health, stamina, and energy to work on the larger environmental issues. Or, second, we can build unhealthy houses so we all get sick and eventually die off and the planet takes care of itself. Humans may or may not have more or less intrinsic value than other species, but we do have more ability to affect change. And I think we can do that easier if we are healthy. If we don't put human health first on a green building list, we run the risk of evolving into a human species that spends too much time on our own health problems and less on the planet's. -- John Bower, The Healthy House Institute http://www.hhinst.com/ email: healthy@bloomington.in.us 430 N. Sewell Road, Bloomington, IN 47408 Phone/fax 812-332-5073 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 08:06:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA23391 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:06:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA06729 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:05:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA06448; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:59:49 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:53:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA06101 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:53:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from norwich.valley.net (norwich.valley.net [198.115.160.12]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA06097 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:53:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from lyme.VALLEY.NET (lyme [198.115.160.11]) by norwich.valley.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA03163 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:57:59 -0500 Message-id: <2080211@lyme.VALLEY.NET> Date: 30 Jan 98 08:03:33 EST From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: David Foley's excellent energy eff primer To: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1634 John Straub wrote: >East facing windows are certainly better >collectors than pure south ones in our climate because we are >probabilistically more likely to get early morning sun than afternoon >sun. Secondly, by morning the house has cooled off from many hours of >no sunlight. So, the sooner the early morning hating gets going, the less >likely you are to use backup heat, and thus the lower total annual costs. --- end of quoted material --- I don't see it the way John does. Here are ASHRAE Solar Heat Gain Factors totalled for Oct through April at 40 N latitude: East 4945 Btu/ft2 South 10360 Btu/ft2 These are clear day numbers, and they represent the sum of the average clear day in each of the seven months. More acccurate numbers are calculable or of course measurable for a specific location, knowing its cloud cover characteristics. However, I think this shows that you'd have to lose fully half of your south insolation before the east gain would be equal. If you look at a shorter "winter", as you'd find in a superinsulated house, Nov - Jan: East 1449 Btu/ft2 South 4772 Btu/ft2 East is only 30% of the potential of south. I've cranked the orientation of buildings off of true south because of shading from topography or because of known climatic characteristics (such as morning fog, etc.) but in no case have I seen a situation where a due east exposure would be preferable to due south or reasonable deviation from south. I don't worry about 20 degrees off of true south at all. Marc Rosenbaum Isn't real life great? You can disagree with a professor and it isn't reflected in your final grade! ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 08:49:33 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA23918 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:49:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA16143 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA07962; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:42:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:36:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA07549 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:35:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mail.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.156]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA07543 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:35:47 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: from RCMathis1@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id TIXBa10180; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:38:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <2a5e1c7d.34d1d7e6@aol.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:38:44 EST To: bfloyd@USIT.NET, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Architctural education and Green building Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1635 All, I have lost the address for The Society of Building Science Educators, but, as I recall, they are one group "carrying the load" in providing the education we have been discussing. I think Cris Benton at UC Berkeley and Dave Grimsrud at U of Minn are still involved. Maybe someone on the list ca provide an updated reference. Chris Mathis MCSquared In a message dated 98-01-29 22:41:22 EST, you write: << Sacie was concerned that architecture schools do not teach courses that relate to energy efficient design. I would differ with that. All of the fundamentals necessary to doing energy efficient design were covered in my education under the guise of building technology, HVAC, etc. >> ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 09:27:42 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA24608 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:27:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA24987 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:26:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10066; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:20:34 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:15:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA09484 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:15:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA09474 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:15:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (sasc2-97.flash.net [209.30.90.97]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA18082; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:20:30 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34D1E3E8.2031AC2D@flash.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:30:00 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jean Gallagher CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: GROWTH References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1636 Jean Gallagher wrote: > John, > > I think I know what you mean when you worry about unrestrained growth, and I > guess you realized as you asked the question that Ògated communitiesÓ > werenÕt exactly the issue. But I think we all know that growth, in the > Òpopulation explosionÓ sense, is possibly humankindÕs biggest threat. > > At the risk of being considered a Nazi, or worse, I wonder if anyone else has > considered this: if there were a simple way to switch off the reproductive > capabilities of boys and/or girls until they are, say, 25, and are judged to > be arguably financially and parentally capable, wouldnÕt the world be a > much happier place within a few generations? > > The times IÕve broached this pet theory at parties, for instance, people > for those most part have thought I was fascist, racist, or just nuts. And/or > they would say: nobody should be able to judge whether people should have > children. (But as far as I know, no one advocates letting just anyone off the > street adopt a child.) > > If we could make sure that people werenÕt being discriminated against for > reasons of race or religion or anything else, and if we could develop > reliable indicators of people who arenÕt good parent material, does anyone > else think this might be a good idea? Or is this just too radical? > > Jean > > > _ Unfortunate, isn't it, when you anticipate being called a nazi for simply identifying one of the most (if not THE most) terrible threats to our planet. Judging from an earlier response to this post, I understand your concern. Population growth, if it remains even close to the present rate, will likely nullify any efforts at conservation we make today. If the folks at ZPG (Zero Population Growth) are to be believed, we are spitting in the wind. Whether it be in the Brazilian rain forests or the ranges of the snow leopard in Mongolia, people will do whatever is necessary to feed their families. If I were facing starvation, I certainly wouldn't listen to some nonsense about how I couldn't enlarge my pasture because some wealthy people thought there might be something medicinal among the trees. I also would give little credence to the half-baked theories about how I was ruining the ozone layer. (Let these well-fed foreigners go home and stand under their own ozone layer if they're afraid of the sun.) Now, at risk of some serious flames, I'd like to point out that population control was not a problem is most of the world until recently. Disease, famine and infant mortality were quite efficient at keeping human numbers in check. Our well-meaning interference in this natural process produces the same result as killing off the natural enemies of the deer in the United States. In the absence of wolves, the deer stripped their habitat and then starved in large numbers. No, we can't reintroduce "wolves" to the third world, but we can do everything possible to foster responsible reproduction. Before one of our more politically correct members flames me as a racist for my mention of "third world" (a term which, in most ways, includes Russia), please keep in mind that much of the third world is comprised of Mongoloid peoples. A racial relative of theirs, the American Indian, lived largely in harmony with, and had great respect for the earth. It's the legacy of the European invaders that the eastern old growth forests are a legend, not a present reality. My point is that I find it quite impossible to single out any single race as the perpetrator of our present ills. Finally, I see only two approaches which, used together, might work: 1. Birth control 2. Education in the responsible use of natural resources. Yes, I said "might" work, and then only if used together. Actually, I'm not very optimistic about the eventual outcome, but we have to try. Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 09:58:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA24865 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:58:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA00527 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA11152; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:49:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:44:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA10854 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:44:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldus.northnet.org (qmailr@aldus.northnet.org [198.175.11.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA10848 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:44:25 -0500 (EST) From: cneurath@northnet.org Received: (qmail 3702 invoked by uid 0); 30 Jan 1998 14:50:06 -0000 Received: from ppp-12.herd.org (HELO ?198.175.11.205?) (198.175.11.205) by aldus.northnet.org with SMTP; 30 Jan 1998 14:50:06 -0000 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:05:09 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: ice storm and alternative energy Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1637 >Chris: Did I miss any comments re: the recent ice storm? I was looking >and could not find any, by scanning your interesting dissertation.I think >the list would be interested in your comments. Jorg, My comments on the ice storm: As I mentioned in a previous post, none of the dozen or so local "home powered" houses (mostly photovoltaics) lost power whereas virtually all grid connected users across 7000 square miles of New York State lost power for an average of one week, and some up to three weeks. And of course Quebec, Maine, Ontario, Vermont and New Hampshire had similar devastation of large parts of their electrical systems. A reaffirmation that alternative energy is viable and more reliable than the grid. But I already knew that, I've lived with it for 10 years and I've never lost power for even one minute! Further evidence that an entirely grid based system of electricity supply has disadvantages. Many energy thinkers such as Amory Lovins have argued that "small is beautiful" ... that energy distribution networks suck up large amounts of dollars and waste energy in transmission line losses and transformer losses, not to mention all the land area they degrade and the very real aesthetic degradation of having the landscape visually bound up in criss-crossing ugly wires. The alternative is on-site generation, which is getting technically more and more feasible and economically competitive. Solar is ideally suited to local generation. Also, companies are supposedly developing small-scale cogeneration units that will yield a net efficiency 2 or 3 times greater than what can be achieved with large centralized non-cogen plants. They are gas, oil, or diesel engines which drive generators suitable for powering a single house or group of homes, and utilize the waste heat (2/3rds of the burned energy ends up as "waste" heat) for useful purposes such as space heating, water heating, or cooling. I'm not sure if small cogens are really the way to go, but until central plants are all cogens they have a distinct energy advantage. Contact Amory Lovins' Rocky Mountain Institute for great energy information. I think they are at: www.rmi.org I think a more immediate response to the ice storm is the realization that most people quickly get complacent when surrounded by the modern conveniences. Rural people who grew up much more self-sufficient have in the past decade or so switched from wood stoves to furnaces which require electricity to operate. A lot of them regretted it and may now install at least one wood stove as back up. A lot of people will also hold on to the small generators or kerosene heaters (argh) they bought and that will make a big difference the next time around ... if there is a next time in our lifetimes. Which brings up the question: was this ice storm a "once in a life time event" or was it a result of global warming? If it was part of global warming, then there are much bigger issues to be dealt with. And the greenbuilding list is on the forefront of people trying to address problems like global warming. I have long felt that energy efficiency is one of the best ways to alleviate environmental degradation. And, it can save money! So why isn't it done more? I tend to think that the money will be saved by the masses but lost by the higher ups who own oil companies and other businesses that profit from wastefulness. Those companies have a LOT of power. Chris ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 10:04:13 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25015 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:04:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA02011 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:02:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA12182; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:57:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:51:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA11403 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:51:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo26.mail.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA11399 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:51:39 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id FSAJa18875; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:56:00 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:56:00 EST To: larry48@flash.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: GROWTH Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1638 In a message dated 98-01-30 09:27:08 EST, larry writes: << Finally, I see only two approaches which, used together, might work: 1. Birth control 2. Education in the responsible use of natural resources. Yes, I said "might" work, and then only if used together. Actually, I'm not very optimistic about the eventual outcome, but we have to try. >> Perhaps time is the crux of the matter. From all reports (United Nations and other projections) the world population will double within 32 years going from appx. 6 billion to 12 billion and carrying capacity is estimated at far less than 12. Yet we deal with trying to affect what we can and feel somewhat hopeless in the face of forecasts of worldwide disease, etc. That seems to be the issue as I see it. In the meantime, we (as a society) become preoccupied with sexual events in the white house. I get a disquieting image of Rome and Nero. In the cause of breverity, Phil ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 10:58:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA25812 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:58:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA15031 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:57:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14822; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:51:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:45:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA14434 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:45:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA14430 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:45:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA28288; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:59:55 -0800 Message-Id: <34D1F704.593F@arb.ca.gov> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 07:51:32 -0800 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Subject: GBlist: Re: David Foley's primer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1639 MARK: thx. for the "warm" wit. I noted that you forgot your Tongue in Cheek emoticon, :^| , or the Twinkle in the Eye version, ;~) , assuming there are such things. TGIF, Tom - --- You wrote: >>So, the sooner the early morning hating gets going - --- end of quoted material --- >I thought we were all going to try to be nice... -- Thomas J. Phillips ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 11:47:53 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26789 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28726 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:46:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17614; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:40:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:35:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16805 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:35:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16800 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id KAA0000022417; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:40:31 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980130164226.006b6bb0@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:42:26 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: GBlist: Importance of Green Architecture Cc: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1640 Chuck's following suggestion is a good one; of particular interest is the essay that Barba wrote himself. Sacie Lambertson How many of you are familiar with Javier Barba? >http://www.greenarchitecture.com/home.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 11:48:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA26796 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA28772 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:46:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA17644; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:41:07 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:35:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA16815 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:35:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from falcon.cc.ukans.edu (root@falcon.cc.ukans.edu [129.237.34.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA16810 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:35:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from MyComputer.cc.ukans.edu by falcon.cc.ukans.edu (8.8.7/1.1.8.2/12Jan95-0207PM) id KAA0000023819; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:40:32 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980130164227.006e5614@falcon.cc.ukans.edu> X-Sender: dlambert@falcon.cc.ukans.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:42:27 -0600 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "David F. Lambertson" Subject: Re: GBlist: What is Green? Cc: RHDesign@aol.com Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1641 Rob Harrison said: * Begin design with poetic dreams and memories of lived experiences and ideal >places, rather than with abstractions of art, science or technology. Make >places that reflect the passage of time and allow their stories to be told. > >* Gracefully support the activities of everyday life. Make places that engage >all of the senses. Make evocative places that invite modification, >enhancement and embroidery to suit the personal needs and desires of the >people who use them. Make places that respond to affection. Anyone whose principles include these ideas must make sustainable design lyrical. It is the essence of what a home ought to be. The technical can follow. Sacie Lambertson ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 12:14:17 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27515 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:14:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA06660 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:12:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19211; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:06:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:00:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA18792 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:00:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA18788 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:00:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-25.topher.net [208.199.183.231]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA16629 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:57:35 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:57:35 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801301657.KAA16629@mail.topher.net> X-Sender: ewestbrook@mail.topher.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Elena Westbrook Subject: GBlist: Dictionary of Buildling/Architectural Books Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1642 From: Sarah Clarry My sincere thanks to Sean Finlay, Mark Bigland-Pritchard, Leo Rainer, Nadav Malin, Jan Fillinger and of course to Elena Westbrook for your help in tracking down some dictionaries and reference books of architectural and building terms. I now have more names than I'll ever be able to afford! Thanks again. Sarah Clarry mailto:sclary@masterpack.com.au Best Regards, Elena Westbrook, ELS WordWright Communications EWestbrook@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 12:26:12 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA27764 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:26:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA10001 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:24:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19973; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:19:11 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:14:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19584 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:13:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from saclink2.csus.edu (saclink2.csus.edu [130.86.82.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19579 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:13:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801301713.MAA19579@solstice.crest.org> Received: from PC-ANTHRO-04.mnh.csus.edu by saclink2.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA265430758; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:19:18 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "PE" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 08:57:18 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Waste/Waste not (short-hah) Reply-To: sac28787@saclink.csus.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1643 JohnS, the liquid component of human 'waste' is often separated and diluted with 5 or 10 parts water (I've seen both and have no reason to choose a number) for gardens. Urine is sterile unless the human is badly diseased, and it seems a shame to let the nitrogen go back into air while complicating composting. Pet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 12:40:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA28271 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:40:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA13997 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:38:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA20839; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:32:52 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:27:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA20369 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:27:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20363 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:27:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA05759 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:33:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 30 Jan 1998 09:13:36 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: OTHER SHOES To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id MAA20364 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1644 John, I'm not exactly sure what your post means, but if I might continue my goody-two-shoes stand here... We ALL sometimes lash out at perceived wrongs in others, without regard to the whole picture. Environmentalists think loggers who cut down old growth redwoods should have their arms cut off; loggers think environmentalists who spike trees should have their arms cut off. I recommend finding the video CAL, which came out in the early 80's, and focuses on the human consequences of the "troubles" in northern Ireland. As one character says, with his wonderful Irish accent: "There's bad bastards on both sides." The unspoken corollary, of course, is that there are good bastards on both sides. Now I hope everyone will take this to heart, because you don't want to piss me off. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 12:54:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA28613 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:54:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA18145 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:52:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21661; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:47:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:42:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA21240 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:41:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA21235 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:41:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-38.topher.net [208.199.183.244]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA17716; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:38:49 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:38:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801301738.LAA17716@mail.topher.net> X-Sender: ewestbrook@mail.topher.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: jim@nga.com (Jim Roy), greenbuilding@crest.org From: Elena Westbrook Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Fred's rant ( short ) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1645 Fred Unger posited that human life must, ethically speaking, be held more sacred than the protection of the planet. Jim Roy responded: >Homocentrism -- People are the center of the universe. >Accepting the sacredness of non-human life, does not diminish >the sacredness of humanity, it makes it a reasonable proposition. I agree that casting this question as an either/or, black/white, Cartesian choice is fundamentally misleading. It is absolutely true that the Earth will survive -- in some form -- with or without us. Z Budapest, an environmental activist from California, has pointed out that she's not an environmentalist out of altruism. She said, "I'm not trying to save the Earth. The Earth can take care of itself. It's the human race -- myself! -- I'm trying to save." At the same time, we *cannot* save ourselves without looking *beyond* ourselves. It's impossible. Yes, we need and deserve space for ourselves; we need houses just as much as the beaver needs his dam. And yet thinking that human life is the ultimate value is what got us into this mess in the first place. Human life is sacred. But the nonhuman lives that surround us are just as sacred and deserve no less than we do. Even if you reject the idea of their sacredness, you must acknowledge that we depend on that ecological web. So the challenge is this: How can we fit into the whole ecosystem without overpowering it? How can we reimagine ourselves so that we are part of the Earth, not above it? These are the questions that Daniel Quinn raises in _Ishmael_, and I think he's right that they are the fundamental ground on which change must be built. There are many barriers to learning to think this way. For many of us, they are religious: Man was given dominion over the earth, and told to be fruitful and multiply. (I'm not taking a position on religion, I'm just pointing out that this idea permeates Western thought, like it or not.) For others of us, the barriers are failures of imagination. They are fear of change, of loss: What will I have to give up if I begin to act on the idea that human beings are not the center of life on Earth? It *is* scary. There are many evils, many traps to guard against. For example, the danger that immoral people will use such ideas for their own ends. (Overpopulation a problem? Let's start by getting rid of people we don't like. Overconsumption a problem? Well, stop feeding and housing poor people and we've killed two birds with one stone. Literally.) In my opinion, we must proceed one person at a time, each person by her own choice, to find less harmful ways to live. Governmental edict won't do it. The free market won't do it. We have to be willing to make choices ourselves for other than economic reasons. When we do that we teach people by example, one at a time, the beauty and comfort and satisfaction of choosing to be part of the Earth instead of merely a parasite on it. Best Regards, Elena Westbrook, ELS WordWright Communications EWestbrook@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 13:20:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA29246 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:20:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA25163 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:19:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23876; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:13:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:08:20 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23467 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:08:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from saclink2.csus.edu (saclink2.csus.edu [130.86.82.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA23460 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:08:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801301808.NAA23460@solstice.crest.org> Received: from PC-ANTHRO-04.mnh.csus.edu by saclink2.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA009864018; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 10:13:38 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "PE" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 09:51:38 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: RE: GBlist: What is Green? Reply-To: sac28787@saclink.csus.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1646 Olivia James' reply to the Unger tract is correct: reliance on nature's rebuilding after 6 major lifeform disasters is a frail moral reed to build with. Ask E O Wilson how long recovery took, and how much faster this latest, human disaster is going. 'Human wisdom and morality' remain scarce commodities in the holy Market; humans are not sacred (witness the easy triage of the poor) and, given their modes of thought, should be scared. Pet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 13:30:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA29462 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:30:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA28133 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:29:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24706; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:23:35 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:18:27 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24136 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:18:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo15.mx.aol.com (imo15.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.170]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24132; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:18:07 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: from RCMathis1@aol.com by imo15.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4PSDa29756; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:15:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <2252a09c.34d218d5@aol.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:15:47 EST To: ee-building@crest.org, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: State of the Union Follow-up! Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1647 This just received from the Alliance to Save Energy. Thought both lists might like to see it. Sorry for the cross post. FYI. Chris Mathis MCSquared ********************** I've just learned that in his Saturday radio address President Clinton will talk about climate, energy efficiency and his proposals to provide $6 billion in new incentives for efficiency and renewables over the next five years. This will continue to make the case that he made in the State of the Union, including, it appears, his endorsement of the Alliance's proposal to provide tax credits for very efficient homes. I do not know what time nor on what stations it will be on. We, of course, could not be more excited to learn this important news. Please do not hesitate to contact David Hamilton or myself if you have any questions. ============= David Nemtzow Alliance to Save Energy nemtzow@ase.org ph: (202) 857-0666 fax: (202) 331-9588 http://www.ase.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 13:37:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA29560 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:37:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA00035 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:35:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25439; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:30:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:24:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24785 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:24:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24781 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-37.topher.net [208.199.183.243]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA18865 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:21:30 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:21:30 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801301821.MAA18865@mail.topher.net> X-Sender: ewestbrook@mail.topher.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Elena Westbrook Subject: GBlist: RE: electric competition Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1648 >From a friend of mine in California: >As of the first of this month, California became the first (or one of the >first) state to end power monopolies and allow us customers choice in >the marketplace (gad! another decision to make; just what I need). >As when telephones were deregulated, we were promised that our bills >would go down with competition. Our telephone bill hasn't gone down, >of course. > >Today we received our first gas and electric bill under the new, improved, >competitive situation. Our 10% (legislated) reduction amounted to $3.27. >The "Electric Energy Charge Trust Transfer Amount (TTA) [This charge recovers >the financing cost associated with the required 10% reduction]" was $5.96. > >"They" told us this wouldn't happen. We've been saying "I told you so" >all along. Looks like we were right. > >Joanne Sandstrom >(who was right about the Raiders deal, too, and would never have voted to >bring them back to Oakland and won't vote for anyone who did) >easia@uclink.berkeley.edu > Best Regards, Elena Westbrook, ELS WordWright Communications EWestbrook@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 13:37:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA29570 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA00114 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:36:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25485; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:30:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:24:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA24817 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:24:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA24810 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-37.topher.net [208.199.183.243]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA18869; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:21:33 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:21:33 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801301821.MAA18869@mail.topher.net> X-Sender: ewestbrook@mail.topher.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: cneurath@northnet.org, greenbuilding@crest.org From: Elena Westbrook Subject: Re: GBlist: ice storm and alternative energy Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1649 Chris wrote: >Which brings up the question: was this ice storm a "once in a >life time event" or was it a result of global warming? If it was part of >global warming, then there are much bigger issues to be dealt with. Did anyone else see the _Atlantic_ article about the possibility that global warming could actually trigger an new ice age? Supposedly the global warming would change ocean currents that currently keep the north Atlantic landmasses relatively temperate. What are your opinions? Anyone done much research in this area? Best Regards, Elena Westbrook, ELS WordWright Communications EWestbrook@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 14:08:41 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00429 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:08:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA09795 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:07:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28021; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:01:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:56:13 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA27437 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:55:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from owlnet.rice.edu (owlnet.rice.edu [128.42.49.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA27426 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:55:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from great-horned.owlnet.rice.edu (great-horned.owlnet.rice.edu [128.42.49.4]) by owlnet.rice.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA09588 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:01:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (khffman@localhost) by great-horned.owlnet.rice.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA02369 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:01:17 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: great-horned.owlnet.rice.edu: khffman owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:01:17 -0600 (CST) From: Keith Hoffman To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #49 In-Reply-To: <199801291821.NAA19061@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1650 > Jean, > Not 'just anyone' may adopt, but most can and do have kids once >their 'reproductive capabilities' are at puberty. Delaying puberty >to 25 shouldn't improve the current situation, where abortion and >medical complications mitigate teen childbearing. Nor does the >popular game War help, as Malthus hoped. > You may consider forcing those in overdeveloped nations to adopt >rather than spawn more consumers. For further quasi-utopias, see >Plato's Republic, a classic on the evils of compromise with ideals. > The best case against the Gaia hypothesis is that Earth has not >(yet) developed a cure for its human parasites, mad cow and AIDS >notwithstanding. Responder to Jean's post: While I don't particularly like Jean's idea (and I'm one of those 'politically correct' people that Fred just flamed that keep thinking I really out to join NPG [negative population growth]), she does have a valid idea. Researchers (sorry I'll have to hunt for my memory source) have found that delaying reproduction from teen years to later years significantly decreases fertility. Simple reality that there are fewer years to have children in. More important, in a lot of places, delaying fertility allows the generally unempowered women to: a) have the additional experience and maturity to control their reproductivity more b)gain more education, which also decreases fertility. A lot of this is more relevant to third world countries. Re: Jean's idea. Do you trust the gov't that much?? I'd be a lot more interested in a plan like china's old one (max 2 children) or just saying no kids until age 21 (no restrictions thereafter). But from a practicality standpoint, this idea is irrelevant. Think how the pro-lifers would react to the idea that you were going to involuntarily force teen mothers to abort. Yie, that sounds a touch fascist. Not that I wanted to promote this thread. I don't think there are any population placebos except a) don't subsidize reproduction via tax breaks (think Clinton's new child care tax break) b)educate educate educate c) reproductive freedom access. Most of the other ideas I've heard are pretty incompatible with our ideas of freedom. I suppose we could increase your taxes for more children...everyone hates the IRS :) Jean: good point about adoption restrictions vs. childbirth not restricted. Fred: Reduced human population is only 'politically correct' if I believe it because it is a 'popular/hip' idea. Contrarily, I usually get trounced if I advocate anything restrictive re: the unrestricted right to reproduce. Keith Hoffman khffman@owlnet.rice.edu Technician (Forest Ecology), Rice University, Dept. of Ecology ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 14:17:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00602 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:17:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA12339 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:15:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA28651; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:10:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:04:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA28205 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:04:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA28201; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:04:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.78] (uc13.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.78]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA08316; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:10:31 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199801300235.SAA18468@denmark.it.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 02:16:32 -0500 To: Bruce Sullivan From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: UNWISE ENVIRONMENTALISTS Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1651 >Jean > >I think this is a result of posts that are... well extremely verbose. The >number of words is not a good measure of effective communication. I'd >wager that everything we say could be said better with half the words. Can >I suggest that brevity is a service to the group? Here's a Mark Twain quote that struck me "Sorry for writing a long letter, but I didn't have time to write a short one." - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 14:35:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA00989 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:35:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA17889 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:34:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00710; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:28:44 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:23:16 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA29926 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:23:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from cerberus.nga.com (root@nga.com [198.68.22.250]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA29918 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:23:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from nga.nga.com (nga [192.168.1.10]) by cerberus.nga.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA17655; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:28:23 -0800 Received: by nga.nga.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07338; Fri, 30 Jan 98 11:28:25 PST Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 11:28:25 PST From: jim@nga.com (Jim Roy) Message-Id: <9801301928.AA07338@nga.nga.com> To: cneurath@northnet.org, greenbuilding@crest.org, ewestbrook@topher.net Subject: Re: GBlist: ice storm and alternative energy Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1652 Elena Westbrook wrote: > Did anyone else see the _Atlantic_ article about the possibility that global > warming could actually trigger an new ice age? Supposedly the global warming > would change ocean currents that currently keep the north Atlantic > landmasses relatively temperate. > > What are your opinions? Anyone done much research in this area? > I read a Scientific American article a while back, that dealt with this idea. Seems reasonable. The massive slow moving current in question is driven by salinity variations. Global warming models suggest that temperature changes will be most extreme ( 2-3 times the average ) in the high latitudes. Increased fresh water runnof from the canadian shield might just do the trick. NPR carried something about antarctic melting that tied into this, too, but I didn't catch much of it. Maybe someone who did can fill us in. Jim Roy ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 14:39:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01065 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:39:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18851 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:37:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01183; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:31:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:26:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA00333 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:26:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:26:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801301926.OAA00333@solstice.crest.org> From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Econet Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1653 In this mornings NYTIMES in the Cybertimes section is an article that seems germane to our discussion on education/commerce etc. It is not the soul of brevity, so decide for yourselves whether you want to take the time. It may require you to subscribe, if that is to big a hassle (not much trouble), I can send you a copy direct. http://www.nytimes.com/library/cyber/week/013098environment.html Chuck -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 14:40:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01082 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:40:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA19170 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:38:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA01371; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:33:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:27:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA00511 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from saclink3.csus.edu (saclink3.csus.edu [130.86.82.3]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00498 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:27:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801301927.OAA00498@solstice.crest.org> Received: from PC-ANTHRO-04.mnh.csus.edu by saclink3.csus.edu with SMTP (1.40.112.6/16.2) id AA024128774; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:32:54 -0800 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "PE" To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:10:54 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #49 Reply-To: sac28787@saclink.csus.edu X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42a) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1654 Keith, delayed birth has a good effect in the 'third world,' but that's not where the trouble lies. A lone human in the US, a consumer of commodities like any forest fire, is worth tens of residents of India or Nigeria in planetary impact. The effective population of the US is billions by that sort of measure. So raising standard of living, a tried and true device to cut reproductive rate, slows rising numbers as it worsens impact. There's a biblical proverb about motes in 3d world eyes and 2x4s in the all-seeing, all-judging eyes of 1st-worlders. Your assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to better the life of the world's poor while curing the addictions of the others. Should your efforts become noticed, your society will disavow any knowledge of your existence. Good luck! This message has already self-destructed. Pet ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 14:53:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA01563 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:53:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA22878 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:52:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02316; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:46:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:41:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA01874 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:40:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from iceland.it.earthlink.net (iceland-c.it.earthlink.net [204.119.177.28]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA01870 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:40:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.254.3.213] (1Cust213.tnt5.krk1.da.uu.net [208.254.3.213]) by iceland.it.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA28218 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:46:22 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199801301946.LAA28218@iceland.it.earthlink.net> Subject: GBlist: More on brevity Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 11:49:33 -0000 x-sender: oikos@mail.earthlink.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: Bruce Sullivan cc: "Green Building" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1655 >>I'd >>wager that everything we say could be said better with half the words. Can >>I suggest that brevity is a service to the group? > >Here's a Mark Twain quote that struck me "Sorry for writing a long letter, >but I didn't have time to write a short one." - Terry And many folks don't have time to _read_ them either. The length of posts is an entirely personal decision. My point is that some (many?) people are put off by long posts and the message is not received, no matter how eloquently phrased. The writer will be more _effective_ by spending the time to polish and condense. Mr. Clemens seems to agree. Bruce -------------------------------------------------------------------- Bruce Sullivan Tel: 541-484-9353 Iris Communications, Inc. Fax: 541-484-1645 Web: www.oikos.com E-mail: sullivan@oikos.com ----------- 1,800 green building product listings online ----------- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 15:06:55 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA02321 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:06:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA27157 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:05:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03869; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:54:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA02670 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:53:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02632; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:53:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA22452; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:56:24 -0700 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:56:24 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Energy Efficiency Listserver , Strawbale Listserver Subject: GBlist: Global Warming Hoax/Chris deFreitas In-Reply-To: <199801301926.OAA00333@solstice.crest.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1656 Dear people: The above gentlemen from the University of Aukland NZ is speaking on the above topic. Is he a recognized, well grounded and peer respected scientist? Has anyone heard of him? Does anyone know who funds his research, if he is engaged in such? Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 15:06:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA02324 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:06:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA27163 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:05:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03875; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:59:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:53:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA02639 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:53:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA02631 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:53:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ppp-206-170-29-32.wnck11.pacbell.net [206.170.29.32]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id LAA28435; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 11:58:37 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D23161.4849@pacbell.net> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 12:00:33 -0800 From: George Kamburoff Reply-To: gkam@pacbell.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-PBWG (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elena Westbrook CC: Jim Roy , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: Fred's rant ( short ) References: <199801301738.LAA17716@mail.topher.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1657 Save our life support system. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 15:11:30 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA02483 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:11:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA28743 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:10:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04554; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:04:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:58:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA03528 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:58:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA03482; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:58:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA120112; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:01:54 -0700 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:01:53 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: GreenBuilding Listserver Cc: Strawbale Listserver , Energy Efficiency Listserver Subject: GBlist: environmental primer & paint Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1658 Does anyone know of the above for: 1) bricks of a masonry heater (Living Room) 2) metal of plumbing pipes of a salt-free water softener (LR) 3) outside concrete pavers - walkway (must be wear resistant) Any practical advise and/or direct experience apppreciated. Jorg Ostrowski ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 15:20:56 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA02685 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA01609 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:19:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA05228; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:13:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:08:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA04785 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:08:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA04775 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:08:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.78] (uc6.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.71]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA24548 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:14:25 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 03:20:27 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: gratitude-ecology-economy-free market Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1659 Hi folks, I am very grateful to everyone who has posted on the threads concerning ecology-economy-population growth. I am grateful for the pain, anger, fear, joy and love in these posts. I am ecstatic. Thank you. I'm fond of quotes that strike me. Here are a few that came up for me while I was reading these threads. "No telling the cost of free trade" and "There's nothing more damgerous than a confused superpower stumbling around" from an interview I heard with a Canadian trade negotiator named Gordon "There is no gathering - no matter what occasion - wedding, birth or funeral, at which the talk between merchants - soon or late - turns to the customer, and how they can get more money from him" - Adam Smith (can't find my source on this one but this is pretty close) "We can never do merely one thing" - Garrett Hardin "The chief cause of problems is solutions" - Eric Sevareid "The benefits of population growth and of growth in the rates of consumption accrue to a few individuals; the costs of population growth and growth in the rates of consumption of resources are borne by all of society" - Garrett Hardin "The most important factor in decisions involving resources is who makes the money" - Terry Brennan "Follow the money" - Philip Marlowe (Raymond Chandler I have been laying my hands on everything in my possession and deciding whether it stays with me, is sold, becomes a gift, is turned into something else, is repaired, is recycled, is burned or goes into the trash. I feel amazingly good. I have dealt with things that have haunted me for years - simple things I've delayed doing. - Terry Brennan ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 15:37:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA03027 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:37:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA06746 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:35:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA06672; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:30:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:24:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06017 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:24:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06011 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:24:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.78] (uc6.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.71]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA28219 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:30:25 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 03:36:27 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: Terry Brennan Subject: GBlist: self, community, planet... Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1660 I was deeply moved by the thread on order. Here's what came up for me. In seventh grade science I learned that the environment is "everything but me". I have come to believe that it is everything beginning with me. I am a natural creature moving through the world. My love for other creatures, rocks, earth air and water are limited only by how I love myself. It begins with me, washes outward, and reflects back. For me, it's an inside job. I am in no position to judge others good or evil. When I do, it is my soul at risk, not theirs. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 15:43:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA03155 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA08489 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:41:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA07241; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:36:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:31:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA06767 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:30:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from zeus.ia.net (zeus.ia.net [205.160.208.33]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA06751 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:30:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from zeus.ia.net (dip285.inav.net [205.160.208.155]) by zeus.ia.net (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id OAA24462 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:36:25 -0600 Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:36:25 -0600 Message-Id: <199801302036.OAA24462@zeus.ia.net> X-Sender: ecicog@mailhost.ia.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: ecicog Subject: GBlist: siding & other materials Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1661 Recently I asked if anyone has had experience with recycled-content siding. Much to my astonishment and disappointment, no one responded. Can it be? How about other building materials with recycled content? If you have experience with anything (sheathing, flooring, insulation, countertops, paint, etc.) I'd like to hear about it. Again, I'm interested in hearing from people who have first hand experience with the materials. Thanks. Marie DeVries, East Central Iowa Council of Governments (phone) 319-398-1266 (fax) 319-398-1298 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 16:03:06 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA03687 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:03:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA14770 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:01:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA08554; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:56:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:50:54 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA08177 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:50:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.16]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA08171 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:50:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA05623 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:55:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-03.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.131) by dfw-ix16.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma005177; Fri Jan 30 14:52:19 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980130155127.00701298@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 15:51:29 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: David Wright, new info Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1662 ...I've been told we need to start charging for doing these searches... ~|;>} David Wright Associates, AIA "We are solar experts" 563 B Idaho Maryland Road Grass Valley, CA 95945 Phone: (530)477-5057 Fax: (530)477-1218 Email: sunworks@oro.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Environmental Building Information Services Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 16:28:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA04452 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:28:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA23126 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:27:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA10413; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:21:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:17:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA10005 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:17:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA10000 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:17:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA22213; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:22:32 -0800 Message-ID: <34D243B0.98DFF287@cow-net.com> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:18:40 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Brennan CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: gratitude-ecology-economy-free market References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1663 Terry Brennan wrote: > I'm fond of quotes that strike me. Me too. Here is one I just read. "A risk assessment is like a captured spy. Torture it enough and it will tell you anything." Environmental Protection Agency chief, William Ruckelshaus ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 17:27:27 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA06491 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:27:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA11159 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:26:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13328; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:20:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:14:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA12636 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:14:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA12632 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:14:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA02119 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:19:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from rvl-md11-58.ix.netcom.com(206.217.107.186) by dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma002092; Fri Jan 30 16:19:09 1998 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19980130171817.006d9fa8@popd.ix.netcom.com> X-Sender: bdhoward@popd.ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:18:19 -0500 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: "Bion D. Howard" Subject: GBlist: SBSE info (4-Chris Mathis) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1664 Society of Building Science Educators (SBSE) <= Walter Grondzik did this> c/o Terri Meyer Boake School of Architecture University of Waterloo Waterloo, Ontario Canada N2L 3G1 (519) 885-1211 x6647 fax (519) 746-0512 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Environmental Building Information Services Contact: Bion D. Howard, Principal Building Environmental Science & Technology P. O. Box 1007, Upper Marlboro, MD 20773 USA ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 17:28:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA06532 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:28:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA11472 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:26:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13416; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:15:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA12737 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:15:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from camel14.mindspring.com (camel14.mindspring.com [207.69.200.64]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA12731 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:15:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from IAQ (user-37kb5q5.dialup.mindspring.com [207.69.151.69]) by camel14.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA04061; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:21:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:21:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801302221.RAA04061@camel14.mindspring.com> X-Sender: iaq@pop.mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" From: Envirosense Subject: Re: GBlist: environmental primer & paint Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1665 Dear Jorg: I am new to this list. I am executive director of the Envirosense Consortium -a nonprofit membership organization that promotes proactive products and solutions for improved indoor air quality. One of our member companies is Porter Paints (a division of Courtaulds Coatings). They are in Louisville, KY. Most of my experience has been with their interior paints and coatings, but I know that their technical people are very much on top of things as far as research and development of low/no VOC products, so they may be able to help with your questions. They have a profile in our website: http://www.envirosense.org Their profile will give you a hotlink to their website as well. You may wish to reach my liasion at Porter via e-mail. His name is Ron Raley. ron.raley@porterpaints.com I hope this helps. The head of the technical department at Porter is Don Collier. He may also be able to help you. The technical department has written some articles lately on VOC's. At 01:01 PM 1/30/98 -0700, you wrote: >Does anyone know of the above for: >1) bricks of a masonry heater (Living Room) >2) metal of plumbing pipes of a salt-free water softener (LR) >3) outside concrete pavers - walkway (must be wear resistant) >Any practical advise and/or direct experience apppreciated. >Jorg Ostrowski > >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > Valerie Walker Executive Director Envirosense Consortium, Inc. 100 Chastain Center Blvd. #165 Kennesaw, GA 30144 (800) 856-0767 (770) 421-9512 (770) 421-9503 - FAX iaq@mindspring.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 17:29:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA06570 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:29:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA11746 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:27:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA13519; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:22:06 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:16:42 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA12834 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:16:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from cleanair.arb.ca.gov (CleanAir.arb.ca.gov [146.114.28.200]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA12827 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:16:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from [146.114.11.17] by cleanair.arb.ca.gov with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA23986; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 14:05:54 -0800 Message-Id: <34D24CCB.21F4@arb.ca.gov> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 13:57:31 -0800 From: Tom Phillips Reply-To: tphillip@arb.ca.gov Organization: California Air Resources Board/Resarch Division/Indoor Exposure Assessment X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: GREENBLDGLIST Subject: GBlist: ice storm/global clilmate change Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1666 Elena W. et al: the "escalator current" of the Gulf Stream was the main character in the excellent PBS/BBC series on Global Climate change a few years ago. The show simulated our future world in the emergency mode in an attempt to prevent or repair the damage to the Gulf Stream flow. It was interspersed with factual background and retrospectives to the 20th century when we knew what might happend. It is the most striking presentation I have seen on this issue. The show was hosted by the English host of the past show on how things are connected thru life and history. Anybody remember the show title & host? pbs.org probably has it for sale. Tom -- Thomas J. Phillips AIR {) FOOD Air Pollution Research Specialist /|\ CARB/RD, Box 2815, Sacramento, CA 95812 WATER | SKIN 916.322.7145/4357 FAX _/ \_ http://www.arb.ca.gov/indoor/indoor.htm http://arbis.arb.ca.gov/rd/apr/indoor.htm ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 17:44:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA06862 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:44:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA15936 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:43:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA14624; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:37:23 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:32:09 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA14102 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:31:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.topher.net (root@mail.topher.net [206.136.138.5]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA14097 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 17:31:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ns1.topher.net (mck-ppp1-20.topher.net [208.199.183.226]) by mail.topher.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA25261; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:29:01 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:29:01 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801302229.QAA25261@mail.topher.net> X-Sender: ewestbrook@mail.topher.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ecicog , greenbuilding@crest.org From: Elena Westbrook Subject: Re: GBlist: siding & other materials Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1667 >How about other building materials with recycled content? If you have >experience with anything (sheathing, flooring, insulation, countertops, >paint, etc.) I'd like to hear about it. We used Choice Deck recycled lumber (50% recycled plastic, 50% waste cedar shavings) and EnviroTech recycled carpet (made from #1 plastic) in our house. We're delighted with both choices. Similar deck material is available from several manufacturers; Mobil Oil makes one called Trex. It's more flexible than wood, so it's not good for support members, but it was great for decking. Would make good park benches, too. The carpet is available in a wide range of grades and colors. The main performance difference I've noted is that it generates less static than nylon and doesn't stain as easily. I don't know about manufactured recycled paint, but the Keep Texas (or Dallas, etc.) Beautiful groups around here mix waste latex paint together and use it to paint over graffiti. The color, as you would expect, is usually brownish. We also used recycled-content expanded polystyrene as foundation insulation. Structural insulated panels by nature include recycled/reclaimed/scrap material in the OSB and EPS materials. We didn't use the cellulose insulation made from recycled newspapers, but our builder usually does. He uses the wet method, with netting to keep it from sagging until they put the wall board on. Good luck finding things. Are you spec'ing things out for your COG? Best Regards, Elena Westbrook, ELS WordWright Communications EWestbrook@topher.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 18:55:23 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA09086 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:55:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA05223 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:53:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA16844; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:48:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:41:47 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA16531 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:41:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo16.mx.aol.com (imo16.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.172]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA16527 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:41:33 -0500 (EST) From: RCMathis1@aol.com Received: from RCMathis1@aol.com by imo16.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 4PKSa03633 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:37:47 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:37:47 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: a brief break.... Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 38 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1668 Fellow Green Folk: I am going to take a break from the list. (My contribution to brevity :^) ) I want you all to know that I appreciate the fact that your brains are engaged and that blood is pumping and that passions exist... I also appreciate the differences of opinion expressed on this list... they give me hope... In physics and mathmatics I learned that there are usually several ways to solve problems... I'm glad the people on this list are each taking their own paths at "solution(s)"... Perhaps we'll get there sooner (or last longer)... or change some life for the better along the way... Work and time constraints are demanding that I take this break. I'll try to catch up in a few weeks... Feel free to email me directly if needed. Regards to all, Chris Mathis MCSquared 5249 Columbia Road Columbia, MD 21044 301-596-1931 ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 19:25:17 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA10007 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:25:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA12457 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:23:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA17936; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:18:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:13:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA17656 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:12:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA17652 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:12:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA17375 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 16:19:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 30 Jan 1998 16:16:32 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: PUNCTUATION To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id TAA17653 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1669 All, Marc has written me that my posts come to him with very odd punctuation. Apostrophes come out =D5, and so forth. Anybody else have this problem? I'm using a Mac and frequently write in Clarisworks, then paste into my Microsoft Email. Jean ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 21:10:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA12729 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:10:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA09314 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:09:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA21582; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:03:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 20:58:44 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA21289 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 20:58:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu (eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.119.141]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA21284 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 20:58:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from kurt (dialin095.csrv.uidaho.edu [129.101.112.105]) by eagle.csrv.uidaho.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_12836)/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA12968; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:03:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <34D2867D.5271@uidaho.edu> Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 18:03:41 -0800 From: Kurt Rathmann X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: RCMathis1@aol.com CC: bfloyd@USIT.NET, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Architctural education and Green building References: <2a5e1c7d.34d1d7e6@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1670 RCMathis1@aol.com wrote: > I have lost the address for The Society of Building Science Educators, but, as I recall, they are one group "carrying the load" in providing the education we have been discussing. I think Cris Benton at UC Berkeley and Dave Grimsrud at U of Minn are still involved. The SBSE listserv can be reached at . You can also contact Bruce Haglund for more info. He's the chair of the Dept. of Architecture at the University of Idaho and edits/publishes the SBSE newsletter. Kurt Rathmann Moscow, Idaho ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 21:28:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA12985 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:28:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA13619 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:27:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA22311; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:17:15 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA21876 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:17:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from transfer.usit.net (root@transfer.usit.net [208.10.171.67]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA21871 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:17:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (DIALUP265.TNKNO.USIT.NET [208.24.75.13]) by transfer.usit.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA15435; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:22:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:22:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801310222.VAA15435@transfer.usit.net> X-Sender: bfloyd@pop.usit.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Jean Gallagher" From: betsy hooper & buddy floyd Subject: RE: GBlist: Architctural education and Green building Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1671 At 08:35 PM 1/29/98 -0700, you wrote: >In light of what you say in your second paragraph,I'd be curious to know if >you've read Stewart Brand's HOW BUILDINGS LEARN, particularly the chapter on >architects. If so, or if you do, it would be instructive to hear your >reaction. Do you think of yourself as a "technician"? And/or? If you had a >wealthy patron who would finance whatever you wanted to do, what do you think >would be your priorities? > >Jean >______________________________________________________________________________ >_ Good catch. After sending the initial message I wished I had elaborated on that a little more. I do not at all belive that artist and technician/technologist are mutually exclusive. After all, the "teche" is the making. Some of the finest artists I have known were also brilliant technologists/ technicians ... and vice versa. I certainly aspire to both. What I see as sustainable building has both a technological and a philosophical component. I see discussions of both on this list. Visual aesthetics do not lend themselves as well to the written word. Unfortunately, while I was studying architecture, the prevailing atmosphere of the school was heavily biased toward abstraction - to the point that the prize winning projects were sculptural objects that could never be construed as buildings. We had all learned the basics of building technology, but were not encouraged to apply and develop it. The view was that there was time enough for that after graduation. Hence my comment about "artists". As for the hypothetical patron with a blank check - first priority would obviously be to meet her needs as long as I could morally compass them. As I see it, the building should be comfortable to use/inhabit and visually pleasing. I see no problem achieving an energy efficient, durable building that made good use of recycled/ reused materials within that context. And now I'm going to find a copy of Stewart Brand's book. Betsy Hooper ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 21:52:04 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA13347 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:52:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA18849 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:50:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA23178; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:45:04 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:41:19 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA22967 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:41:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA22963 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:41:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id V\G28285; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 21:46:15 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Fri, 30 Jan 1998 19:06:58 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Architctural education Message-ID: <19980130.192549.3438.1.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <2a5e1c7d.34d1d7e6@aol.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-2,4,6,8-10,26-29 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1672 >In a message dated 98-01-29 22:41:22 EST, you write: > ><< Sacie was concerned that architecture schools do not teach courses that > relate to energy efficient design. I would differ with that. All of the > fundamentals necessary to doing energy efficient design were covered in my > education under the guise of building technology, HVAC, etc. I went to KU, where Stacie mentioned, for the past 5 years- it is correct that there is not much enthusiasm for the "green/energy efficient" design- however some courses are offered- as i was seeking them out. i had the privelage of taking 3 solar courses under Dr Brainslav and Dr. Marija Todorovich during their few years in the country- however they have not been there for the past 2, and nothing is replacing their courses. i might add that the one "guru" in the mechanical department there who is supposedly known for his solar experience- has given me much grief over my interest as well as turned many interested students away from it. However, there is another well respected professor there teaching progressive lighting techniques who encourages as well as believes in the quest we are all on this list for. I had similar experiences with the different studio instructors-therefore- regardless of the curriculum- i think one with sincere motivation will be able to find a mentor at the university level- heck- i even learned some important lessons from the negative instructor. Samantha M. _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Fri Jan 30 22:59:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA14370 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:59:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA06589 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:58:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25379; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:52:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:48:33 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA24970 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:48:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA24966 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:48:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.106.43] (usrts3p43.port.net [207.237.106.43]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA11518 for ; Fri, 30 Jan 1998 22:52:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199801310352.WAA11518@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: David Wright, new info Date: Fri, 30 Jan 98 22:53:04 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1673 >.I've been told we need to start charging for doing these searches... ~|;>} Before you do.......... let me ask you how that list of building plans on the net is coming along? Did you already post and I missed it somehow? If there wasn't enough interest, then don't trouble yourself though. :-) Thanks for the Wright info......... C Dodge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 31 07:53:43 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id HAA21519 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:53:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id HAA12064 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:52:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA03736; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:46:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:42:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA03527 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:42:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.175]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA03523 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:42:24 -0500 (EST) From: Pbsustain@aol.com Received: from Pbsustain@aol.com by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id SKSVa14890; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:47:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:47:30 EST To: ecicog@ia.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: siding & other materials Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 49 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1674 There is very little siding being recycled or having recycled content that I know of (anyone else?). Vinyl is by far the most often used siding, although aluminum may have some recycled content. I only know of one R&D effort and I haven't been able to get much information from them. However, on other items, there are resources too lengthy for an email. I recommend: The Harris Directory (more than 4,000 construction materials, most with recycled content) Call BJ Harris in Santa Fe at 520-318-3278. Low cost (appx $75) and comes on a searchable database. Recycled Products Guide http://www.recyclingdata.com/ I tend to use the hard cover rather than the database myself.
The Recycling Data Network California has a database that I believe combines the above 2 but it only gives you 5 companies per search which is limiting: http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/mrt/rcp/rcpdbint.htm A companion to this listserv is at: http://www.oikos.com/redi/ Resources for Environmental Design Index (REDI) In addition I have found the Sweets catalog to have some good information at: Sweet's Home Page As always Evironmental Building News does good analysis. They have a CD Rom of back issues that may be useful. Environmental Building News - Welcome If you're looking for personal experience, I would narrow the items to particular brands and then ask for experience on this list or ask the manufacturer and/or distributor for repeat users. Hope it helps Phil Bailey SustainAbility ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 31 08:11:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA21792 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 08:11:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA14862 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 08:09:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04210; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 08:04:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:58:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA03922 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:58:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA03918 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 07:58:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA80814; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 06:03:07 -0700 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 06:03:05 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Terry Brennan Cc: hyphen@dial.pipex.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: standing sound waves to power fridge compressor In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1675 Terry: Further to your note of below, is there any more info on the above? Jorg Ostrowski ___________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Terry Brennan wrote: > > Along the lines of high efficiency heat pumps, the work done by Greg Swift > at LASL using high power density standing sound waves to power compression > cycles in refridgeration systems seems to be coming to fruition. A > commercial venture gave a demonstration at the acoustics conference in > California a few months ago. Promises to be very efficient and to use no > cfcs. - Terry > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 31 10:37:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24219 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:37:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA11393 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:36:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06770; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:30:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:26:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA06536 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:26:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA06532 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:26:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA50678; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 08:31:29 -0700 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 08:31:28 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: F Unger Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: re Insurance & Climate Change/NESEA In-Reply-To: <4f15fd18.34b59669@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1676 Further to the note of below has anyone got a copy of the "Hemispheres Magazine Autumn 97 issue" referred to? Could someone forward me a current e-mail address for NESEA, please? Jorg Ostrowski __________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 8 Jan 1998, F Unger wrote: > > Greenbuilders, > > For those of you interested in the insurance discussion, Hemispheres Magazine > Autumn 97 issue was focussed on natural disasters, insurance type concerns, > climate change and green building solutions. A surprising find browsing a > bookstore on vacation. > > Also, last years Northeast Sustainable Energy Association annual conference > was a joint conference for green building professionals and the insurance > industry. I was quite sceptical while we were organizing it, but it turned out > to be a huge success. (I eat crow again) We had almost 1,000 professionals > from both industries spend three days mingling ideas and mind sets. > Proceedings and other results are available by contacting NESEA, which is a > great organization to join if you are not yet a member. > > Fred Unger > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 31 10:58:15 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA24644 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:58:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA16737 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:56:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA07882; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:51:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:47:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA07597 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:47:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA07593 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:47:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sa4-p39.dreamscape.com [207.198.19.167]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA13488 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:53:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34D347C0.3879@dreamscape.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 10:48:16 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Architects of note Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1677 C.Dodge wrote: Who are the others you refer to? Do you know of anyone working above ground along those lines? Clarence, I'm not sure if they are all that green but Jersey Devils are doing some very nice work, nothing like the stuff Barba does. I would like to see some exaples of the work done by the people you mentioned, is there anything available online? I have been looking for the name of a Native American architect from Canada that I saw on CBC several years ago. I was living aboard a friends 27 ft Hershaw in Chaumont Bay, late one night a show about this architect came on, I was enthralled with his work. I vowed I would write down his name first thing in the morning, we all know the rest of the story. I believe he was originally from Alberta or at least the prairie somewhere. The two pieces that I remember were a church in his home town and a public building, a library I think, in a park like setting. As you approach the structure the walk grows into a terrace wall that eventually flow into the walls themselves. The walls and walk are all of a dark brown stone and feel like the very bones of the site. If anyone recognizes this building's description and knows the architect's name please save me from this eternal search. If this was all just my imagination then I would like to build this for someone. Any takers? Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 31 14:19:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28113 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:19:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA11064 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:18:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA14909; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:12:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:08:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA14588 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:08:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA14584 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:08:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA23686 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:15:01 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 30 Jan 1998 22:04:24 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: FUNNY EMAIL To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id OAA14585 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1678 Thanks to those of you who suggested various permutations. Where is billgates when we need someone to strangle? But the oddest suggestion I got was from Bill Christensen. Is he a greenbuilding monitor, or, like, overlord? He offered some hints but then sugg ested that this was "not really a matter for the greenbuilding list, but rather for private email." Gosh, Bill, if you would like please send me the entire mailing list I would gee girlishly and with red face like send a little letter to each person to in quire if i was addressing the person to whom i was speaking with, correctly. Jeannie ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 31 14:26:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28259 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:26:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA12745 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:24:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA15283; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:19:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:15:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15011 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from pulsar.csuchico.edu (pulsar.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.82.17]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15007 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:15:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from macgate.csuchico.edu (macgate.CSUChico.EDU [132.241.80.13]) by pulsar.csuchico.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA23942 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 11:21:29 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: 30 Jan 1998 22:04:24 -0700 From: "Jean Gallagher" Subject: GBlist: FUNNY EMAIL To: greenbuilding@crest.org X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.1.0 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"; Name="Message Body" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id OAA15008 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1679 Thanks to those of you who suggested various permutations. Where is billgates when we need someone to strangle? But the oddest suggestion I got was from Bill Christensen. Is he a greenbuilding monitor, or, like, overlord? He offered some hints but then sugg ested that this was "not really a matter for the greenbuilding list, but rather for private email." Gosh, Bill, if you would like please send me the entire mailing list I would gee girlishly and with red face like send a little letter to each person to in quire if i was addressing the person to whom i was speaking with, correctly. Jeannie ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 31 14:47:30 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28559 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:47:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA18784 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:46:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA16237; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:40:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:36:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA15778 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:36:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA15772 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:36:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:56:45 +0000 Date: Sat, 31 Jan 98 13:54:04 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: FUNNY EMAIL To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5002971.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1680 jean_gallagher@macgate.csuchico.edu writes: But the oddest suggestion I got was from Bill Christensen. Is he a greenbuilding monitor, or, like, overlord? He offered some hints but then sugg ested that this was "not really a matter for the greenbuilding list, but rather for private email." Gosh, Bill, if you would like please send me the entire mailing list I would gee girlishly and with red face like send a little letter to each person to in quire if i was addressing the person to whom i was speaking with, correctly. No Jean. I'm just another subscriber to the list who would like to keep the list mail on topic. Greenbuilding, remember? I apologize if you felt personally attacked by my response (by personal email)- which did suggest several ways that you could find out what is going on with your mail. Please try them and see what happens. By the way, your mail came through here without wierd punctuation. So it may be as much on Marc's end as it is on yours. But please remember that your mail goes out to hundreds of people, most of whom joined this list to discuss greenbuilding. BC -- Bill Christensen billc@greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Sourcebook at http://www.greenbuilder.com/sourcebook/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 31 14:59:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA28839 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:59:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA21846 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:57:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA16726; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:52:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:48:28 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA16412 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:48:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA16406 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:48:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (sasc1-61.flash.net [209.30.90.61]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA08026 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:53:45 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34D3838E.9B28AC18@flash.net> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:03:27 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Messages for Greenbuilder Group Subject: GBlist: Hard Water Conditioning Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1681 I'm looking for an unbiased oppinion. The San Antonio TX area has fairly hard water, which I want to treat. I'm not at all concerned about ingesting it, but would like to avoid the pipe clogging and water heater buildups associated with this. Also, my wife Pam detests the "scummy-looking stuff" that appears on the surface of the water when she makes tea. I explained patiently to her that it took hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary fine tuning to get our bodies to thrive on that "scummy-looking stuff", and that she should hail its appearance on the surface of her tea as an indication that she's getting just what she needs. Her response to my pedagogery is best left unprinted--suffice it to say she disagrees. I put a regular (osmosis-type) water softener in our last house, and disliked perpetually loading it with rock salt. I've heard of the GMX Magnetic water treatment device and know that it costs much less that a regular water softener. I would like to hear from someone who has actually used it. Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 31 15:35:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id PAA29402 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:35:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA01007 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:34:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA18295; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:28:25 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:23:34 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id PAA17969 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:23:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA17965 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 15:23:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (sasc1-61.flash.net [209.30.90.61]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA26069; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:28:32 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34D38BB8.25ECC98@flash.net> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 14:38:16 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Keith Hoffman CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #49 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1682 Keith Hoffman wrote: > ...(snip) > > Not that I wanted to promote this thread. I don't think there are any > population placebos except a) don't subsidize reproduction via tax breaks > (think Clinton's new child care tax break) b)educate educate educate > c) reproductive freedom access. Most of the other ideas I've heard are > pretty incompatible with our ideas of freedom. I suppose we could > increase your taxes for more children...everyone hates the IRS :) > > Keith Hoffman > khffman@owlnet.rice.edu > Technician (Forest Ecology), Rice University, Dept. of Ecology > > Kieth, It's great to hear someone else question the US government's policy of rewarding reproduction with tax breaks. I've wondered if I missed the news flash: "Homo Sapien Declared an Endangered Species!". Since our government typically uses the tax code to encourage specific behaviors, is it any suprise that recent legislation reflects its author's seeming preoccupation with baby-making activities? Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 31 17:27:48 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA01034 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:27:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA29483 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:26:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA24329; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:20:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:14:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA23543 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:14:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA23532 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:14:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (2Cust22.tnt2.clearwater.fl.gt.uu.net [208.255.197.150]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id QAA14459; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 16:20:00 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34D3A3FB.73C4@gte.net> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:21:47 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Larry Stivers CC: Messages for Greenbuilder Group Subject: Re: GBlist: Hard Water Conditioning References: <34D3838E.9B28AC18@flash.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1683 Larry, Let me suggest another alternative. I recently purchased a ClearWave water conditioner when our salt system failed. It's easy -- you wrap coils around the water intake pipe to create an electromagnetic field -- and it seems to work. It won the "Best New Product" Award at the Canadian Hardware Show and it costs about 1/3 as much as a salt system. I found mine at Home Depot. It also comes with a 120 day safisfaction guarantee and a three year warranty. Field Controls in Kinston, NC, is the manufacturer. Good luck. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sat Jan 31 17:32:52 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA01083 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:32:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA00893 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:31:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA24654; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:25:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:20:36 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA24268 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:20:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo28.mail.aol.com (imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.156]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA24251 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:20:13 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 1UXYa10171 for ; Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:25:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <989999ce.34d3a4c0@aol.com> Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 17:25:02 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: People or planet? A shorter answer Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1684 Friends, Please excuse my verbosity. Converting controversial ideas to sound bites often ends up sounding a lot like "idiot, android, etc, etc.". Such brevity offers little clarity. But I can do better also. By examining the extremes of our own logic, our thinking becomes less fuzzy. Smaller, every day questions become easier to answer. As the professionals in our building relationships, our clients trust us to make clear choices in their best interests, at least on issues of health and safety. If we must make the choices Marc implies, perhaps we should first take a Hippocratic Oath. On the larger questions, these often difficult examinations can broaden our perspective at the same time they focus our vision. Those sacred cows won't go to the butcher shop on their own. Jean's tarred and feathered friend is right. And I am sure he recognizes that the people that he is engaging toward solutions are not our enemies. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 1 09:48:26 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA15259 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 09:48:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA03666 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 09:47:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA19008; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 09:41:21 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Feb 1998 09:33:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA18640 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 09:33:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA18636 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 09:33:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet5.carleton.ca [134.117.136.25]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v2.02) with ESMTP id JAA00582; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 09:39:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id JAA22854; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 09:39:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 09:39:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802011439.JAA22854@freenet5.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Subject: GBlist: Gooey (not necessarily Green) Architecture Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1685 on Sat, 31 Jan 1998 Chuck Hinckley wrote: re: Architects of note > I have been looking for the name of a Native American > architect from Canada > ...please save me from this eternal search. Hello Chuck; You may rest your weary soul... Douglas J. Cardinal Architect Ltd. 1525 Carling Ave. Ottawa Ontario ph. (613) 729-0685 (He also did the (national) Museum of Civilisation , in Hull Quebec ( widely published)... and "yes" he still maintains (and uses) a traditional Sweat Lodge for ritual spiritual cleansing.) -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 1 10:27:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (helios.oit.unc.edu [152.2.22.3]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id KAA15709 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 10:27:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id KAA11698 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 10:25:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20340; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 10:20:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Feb 1998 10:14:30 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA20095 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 10:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA20086 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 10:13:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA29820; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 08:17:30 -0700 Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 08:17:29 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" Reply-To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Larry Stivers Cc: Messages for Greenbuilder Group Subject: Re: GBlist: Hard Water Conditioning In-Reply-To: <34D3838E.9B28AC18@flash.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1686 Larry: We researched many water softeners before committing to one we left was the most compatible for a sustainable home/office demonstration project in which we work and live: Our criteria were: 1) no detrimental impact on personal health 2) environmentally safe & progressive 3) must make a difference (ie. skin, hair, dishes, plants?) 4) simple operation 5) space saving 6) low maintenance 7) politically astute Our unit is small (10"x10"x3"). No salt. You pay for the unit and are not hooked into the salt companies for ever. No time wasted buying, carrying and filling with salt. That is politically astute as autonomous off-grid buildings. Also no backwashing as with salt water softeners which usually require about 5,000-7,000 gallons/year of backwashing, water you pay for twice (as city water, then as sewage), if you are connected to the city grid. I think they will ban salt water softeners in the future. No corrosion problems, either. As an added bonus we also got one that will do the entire house, rather than just part of the system. Basically our unit reverses the process by which water becomes hard. After 4 years of operation, we are still satisfied, but it may not be for everyone. _________________________________________________________ Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Larry Stivers wrote: > > I'm looking for an unbiased oppinion. The San Antonio TX area has > fairly hard water, which I want to treat. I'm not at all concerned > about ingesting it, but would like to avoid the pipe clogging and > water heater buildups associated with this. > > Also, my wife Pam detests the "scummy-looking stuff" that appears on > the surface of the water when she makes tea. I explained patiently to > her that it took hundreds of thousands of years of evolutionary fine > tuning to get our bodies to thrive on that "scummy-looking stuff", and > that she should hail its appearance on the surface of her tea as an > indication that she's getting just what she needs. Her response to my > pedagogery is best left unprinted--suffice it to say she disagrees. > > I put a regular (osmosis-type) water softener in our last house, and > disliked perpetually loading it with rock salt. I've heard of the GMX > Magnetic water treatment device and know that it costs much less that > a regular water softener. I would like to hear from someone who has > actually used it. > > Larry > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 1 13:01:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA17937 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:01:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA19674 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:59:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA24181; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:54:00 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:48:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA23841 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:46:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from lib.drury.edu (lib.drury.edu [198.209.49.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA23837 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 12:46:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from chaskins@localhost) by lib.drury.edu (AIX4.2/UCB 8.7/8.7) id LAA33300; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 11:56:25 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 11:56:21 -0600 (CST) From: christina haskins To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" cc: Bnartist@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Cyberspace (was resource) Efficiency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1687 Yes, please. I have received warnings from my (email admin) on the use of too much memory allocated to my e-mail site. Thank you On Thu, 29 Jan 1998, Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > On Thu, 29 Jan 1998 Bnartist@aol.com wrote: > > Could everbody please keep messages short? > > Sincerely Greg Flynn > > Greg: You are very right! We desperately need abstracts from many, not > dissertations from few. > > Jorg Ostrowski > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 1 13:49:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18614 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:49:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA00814 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:48:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA25612; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:42:41 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:36:43 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA25251 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:35:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA25244 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:35:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sA6-p48.dreamscape.com [207.198.13.176]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA02213 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:41:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34D4C0A7.CAA@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 13:36:24 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: excessive qoutes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1688 Christina, One way to keep posts lean is to quote selectively, your post had three Greenbuilding ads at the end. The greatest space wasters are those who simply reply, quoting the entire text of the previous message(s). Selective quoting that is necessary to identifying the source of the subject being discussed is useful, anything more is a waste of resources. I would think that arguement would have some meaning here of all places. Don't take this as a personal affront, there are a # of culprits here. Now maybe the best conservation effort would be to let this thread die. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 1 16:14:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id QAA21484 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 16:14:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id QAA07044 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 16:13:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA01141; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 16:07:30 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Feb 1998 16:01:57 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA00792 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 16:01:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo11.mx.aol.com (imo11.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.165]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00787 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 16:00:56 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo11.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id WQEZa08283; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 16:06:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <13f53a1b.34d4e3cf@aol.com> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 16:06:21 EST To: jdo@acs.ucalgary.ca, greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: GBlist: Hemisphere, NESEA Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1689 "Hemisphere" magazine Volume 8, Number 1, Fall 1997 305-348-2894, E-Mail: gamarrae@servax.fiu.edu http://www.fiu.edu/~lacc/hemisphere/hemisphere.html NESEA Website: http://www.nesea.org Email: nesea@nesea.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 1 19:52:04 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA25441 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:52:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA05953 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:50:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA09299; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:44:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:40:40 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA08994 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:40:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA08987 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:40:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id THC08071; Sun, 01 Feb 1998 19:45:37 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: marciamcd@juno.com Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 04:01:24 -0700 Subject: GBlist:Green paradigm shift Message-ID: <19980201.172551.3438.0.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <2054502@lyme.valley.net> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,14-30,32-34 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1690 Just brainstorming here (3AM-how can we sleep with so many things to do?!)- but it just came to me that one way to meet some of the needs we are all discussing- re setting standards higher than the norm- giving "carrots" for design, educating the public, discussing the latest and greatest, etc. - could all be achieved through a magazine- on the racks beside better homes and redbook- so that everyone would have access- giving awards for the architecture that meets these goals- educating the populus of these many facets that area important to us in articles (as well as their health and environment). i imagine that it would target a more alternative culture to begin with- but just as i have made the paradigm shift in the past few years, its accessibility might help others make that shift as well. ( i realize there are many trade publications that come close- but the idea here is to make it accessible to the public- who- as one perspective holds- make the demands on the builders) Any suggestions on how this might get accomplished?obstacles to overcome? Samantha M. >* How can we make buildings that produce rather than consume >resources? >* How can we make buildings that export electricity and energy? >* How can we make buildings that produce and store food? >* How can we make buildings that improve the quality of the water that >falls on them? >* How can we make buildings that create nutrients from the wastes >generated inside them? >* How can we make buildings that enhance the health of the occupants? >* How can we make buildings that are good places to work in? >* How can we make buildings that help people in them discover and >"honor their purpose for existence" (from Mutant Message by Marlo Morgan) _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 1 20:29:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA26054 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 20:29:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA15622 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 20:27:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA10950; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 20:21:57 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Feb 1998 20:18:06 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA10641 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 20:17:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA10637 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 20:17:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (sasc3-113.flash.net [209.30.90.113]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA17657; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:23:26 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34D5222B.F671E5A1@flash.net> Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 19:32:27 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" CC: Messages for Greenbuilder Group Subject: Re: GBlist: Hard Water Conditioning References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1691 Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Larry: We researched many water softeners before committing to one we left was > the most compatible for a sustainable home/office demonstration project in > which we work and live: Our criteria were: > 1) no detrimental impact on personal health > 2) environmentally safe & progressive > 3) must make a difference (ie. skin, hair, dishes, plants?) > 4) simple operation > 5) space saving > 6) low maintenance > 7) politically astute > > Our unit is small (10"x10"x3"). No salt. You pay for the unit and are not hooked > into the salt companies for ever. No time wasted buying, carrying and filling > with salt. That is politically astute as autonomous off-grid buildings. Also no > backwashing as with salt water softeners which usually require about 5,000-7,000 > gallons/year of backwashing, water you pay for twice (as city water, then > as sewage), if you are connected to the city grid. I think they will ban salt > water softeners in the future. No corrosion problems, either. > > As an added bonus we also got one that will do the entire house, rather than > just part of the system. Basically our unit reverses the process by which water > becomes hard. After 4 years of operation, we are still satisfied, but it may > not be for everyone. > _________________________________________________________ > Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect > - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), > environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting > on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. > - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors > - college campus and office tower recofit under construction > - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office > ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 > Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm > e-mail: > ______________________________________________________ > > On Sat, 31 Jan 1998, Larry Stivers wrote: > > > > > I'm looking for an unbiased oppinion. The San Antonio TX area has > > fairly hard water, which I want to treat. I'm not at all concerned > > about ingesting it, but would like to avoid the pipe clogging and > > water heater buildups associated with this. > > I've heard of the GMX > > Magnetic water treatment device and know that it costs much less than > > a regular water softener. I would like to hear from someone who has > > actually used it. > > > > Larry > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > > Environmental Building News and Oikos > > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > Jorg, Thanks for your response. The unit you descirbe sounds good. Is this GMX Magnetic's whole house model, or another manufacturer's product entirely? Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 1 20:36:00 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA26145 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 20:36:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA17293 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 20:34:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA11306; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 20:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Feb 1998 20:24:50 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA11048 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 20:24:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA11044 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 20:24:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.22] (blf22.acadia.net [205.217.217.22]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id UAA17524 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 20:30:10 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 20:28:10 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: Re: GBlist: deforestation Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1692 Chuck Hinkley wrote: >Olivia, >I question is whether logging is really the >major source of the problem, isn't slash and burn agriculture the larger >portion of the destruction, particularly cattle grazing?... If the timber >that >is stupidly burned were converted to >usable wood products and agriculture was prohibited in the rainforest, >how would that change the dynamic? I'm not sure that avoiding mahogany >is as strong a response as is required... end of quote Here in Maine, two people with good understanding of these issues are Paul and Julia Sampson, of A.E. Sampson and Sons, Warren, Maine (207) 273-4000. They are a small wood-products and architectural millwork company. They've put tremendous effort into converting their operation to certified "well-managed" lumber sources. They have a great line of certified flooring products. Now they're working with the Smartwood Program and others to develop certified sources in South America. Paul has been to Paraguay and Bolivia recently, trying to help develop the infrastructure, and assure locals that they'll have a market for these products. I'm sure that if you contacted them, they'd share what they've learned. (Tell 'em I sent you.) David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 1 21:23:09 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA26959 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:23:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA28757 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:21:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA13077; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:15:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:12:02 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA12792 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:11:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12788 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:11:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA20092; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:15:51 -0700 Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 19:15:50 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Larry Stivers Cc: Messages for Greenbuilder Group Subject: Re: GBlist: Hard Water Conditioning In-Reply-To: <34D5222B.F671E5A1@flash.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1693 Larry said: "Jorg, Thanks for your response. The unit you descirbe sounds good. Is this GMX Magnetic's whole house model, or another manufacturer's product entirely? NO, not magnetic. Nothing to do with lining up molecules. Cheaper too. Jorg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 1 21:32:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA27141 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:32:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA01159 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:31:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA13685; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:23:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:19:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA13198 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:18:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA13193 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:18:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.22] (blf26.acadia.net [205.217.217.26]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA20487 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:24:20 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:22:18 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: theory versus practice Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1694 I'd really appreciate some advice regarding a dilemma. Several people sent kind notes about my What Is Green? post. Only right now, I feel like a hypocrite - like Jefferson, the slaveholder who was a great theorist on the subject of liberty. Here's why: after several overtly "green" projects, we have new clients, a retired couple who want a house designed. They are very nice folks who have progressive beliefs, support good causes, etc. But boy! do they have a lot of stuff and boy! do they want a lot of space! They said that they "can't possibly imagine" living in less than over 3500 square feet, not including two-car garage, tool shed, deck, etc. So no matter what, this house is going to consume needless amounts of resources. We'll do what we can to make it energy-efficient, water efficient, healthy, durable, and such, but the budget will be chewed up by raw space requirements before we can do anything close to state of the art. We'd like the paycheck, but that's a side issue. If we walk away from the job, they'll build anyway. With our involvment, things will be better, but we we're going to have troubled consciences. I left a great job some years ago; one reason was I was tired of aiding and abetting conspicuous consumption. Thanks for any views you can offer. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 1 21:32:29 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA27142 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:32:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA01160 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:31:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA13667; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:22:54 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:18:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA13183 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:18:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from p2.acadia.net (root@p2.acadia.net [205.217.210.2]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA13178 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:18:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.217.217.22] (blf26.acadia.net [205.217.217.26]) by p2.acadia.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA20482 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:24:16 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: dmfoley@post.acadia.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 21:22:15 -0400 To: greenbuilding@crest.org From: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) Subject: GBlist: climate change info Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1695 My brother is a global climate model-maker and researcher at the University of Wisconsin. He is modellinglarge-scale biological effects into climate models, and he knows a lot about the climate-change issues being discussed recently by this group. For those looking for good technical and background information, he is a resource. I'd only ask that you use the resource sparingly, and only for questions you have trouble answering elsewhere. He is: Jonathan Foley (jfoley@facstaff.wisc.edu). Tell him I sent you. David Foley Holland and Foley Building Design 232 Beech Hill Road Northport, Maine USA 04849 (207) 338-9869 voice (207) 338-9859 fax email: dmfoley@acadia.net ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Sun Feb 1 22:41:02 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA29044 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:41:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA20282 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:39:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA17782; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:33:46 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:29:48 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA17461 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA17456 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:29:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sc21.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.214]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA21790 for ; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 22:35:24 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34D51D2D.40E4@dreamscape.com> Date: Sun, 01 Feb 1998 22:30:48 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Paradigm Shift Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1696 Wendy, That is exactly the sort of tactic I believe is most likely to bare fruit. Taunton Press might be a starting place, they already do Fine Homebuilding, Fine Gardening, fine etc., but they may not be mainstream enough. I think your reference to Better Homes and Redbook are on the money, that is exactly the market that needs to be educated/enlightened. We might just find that the circulation doesn't have to be limited to the already converted alternative culture, somewhere just recently I came across a link that led to a group founded by some Conn. housewives (including Meryl Streep). The mainstream North American family may be more inclined toward change than we are willing to admit. Chuck ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 03:08:16 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id DAA04627 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 03:08:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id DAA17137 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 03:06:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id DAA24828; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 03:01:08 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 02:56:59 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA24551 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 02:56:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from harborside.com (harborside.com [204.214.110.225]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA24547 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 02:56:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [204.214.111.206] [204.214.111.206] by harborside.com with smtp (Exim 1.62 #3) id 0xzGI7-0002QU-00; Sun, 1 Feb 1998 23:27:42 -0800 Subject: Re: GBlist: theory versus practice Date: Sun, 1 Feb 98 23:35:03 -0800 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Steve Hussey To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-Id: Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1697 >I'd really appreciate some advice regarding a dilemma. > [snip] >Here's why: after several overtly "green" projects, we have new clients, a >retired couple who want a house designed. They are very nice folks who >have progressive beliefs, support good causes, etc. But boy! do they have >a lot of stuff and boy! do they want a lot of space! They said that they >"can't possibly imagine" living in less than over 3500 square feet, not >including two-car garage, tool shed, deck, etc. > >So no matter what, this house is going to consume needless amounts of >resources. We'll do what we can to make it energy-efficient, water >efficient, healthy, durable, and such, but the budget will be chewed up by >raw space requirements before we can do anything close to state of the art. > >We'd like the paycheck, but that's a side issue. If we walk away from the >job, they'll build anyway. With our involvement, things will be better, but >we we're going to have troubled consciences. David 1. Take the job. They are going to build whomever they use as an architect. Another designer may well be less scrupulous than you. If you take the job you have a chance to influence them - otherwise you don't. 2. Educate them. Teach them about sustainability/insulation/passive solar etc. Show them where waste occurs. Show them better ideas. 3. Create a design that suits their needs - not designing to a square footage. Downplay area - emphasize meeting needs. For example - when they ask for a master bedroom that's say 40 x 20, ask them what they want in the bedroom - bed, seating, changing areas, wardrobes. Then fulfill those requirements in the least space you can. Use design tricks to make the space appear bigger. Show them how with good design they can have all they want in a smaller space. Minimize wasted circulation space, use built in storage, passive solar aspects, etc. 4. Get them to buy into as many 'green' technologies/principles as possible. 5. They will probably end up with a bigger house than you'd like, but that is their privilege. But mitigate that by making it as green as possible. In the end you will never have a perfect solution - but every little bit counts. 6. Most people ask for rooms of a specific size because that's the size of other rooms that they have seen. Badly designed ones. 7. Use this as an opportunity to convert them to your faith. Regards, Steve Hussey Everything in war is very simple, but the simplest thing is difficult. The difficulties accumulate and end by producing a kind of friction that is inconceivable unless one has experienced war...Countless minor incidents--the kind you can never really foresee--combine to lower the general level of performance, so that one always falls short of the intended goal...Friction is the only concept that more or less corresponds to the factors that distinguish real war from a war on paper. Carl von Clausewitz ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 05:40:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id FAA07402 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 05:40:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id FAA10756 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 05:39:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id FAA28150; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 05:33:12 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 05:29:10 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id FAA27871 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 05:28:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from VINEYARD.NET (mail@VINEYARD.NET [199.232.92.150]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA27867 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 05:28:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mail@localhost) by VINEYARD.NET (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA09924; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 05:34:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 05:34:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from asy5.vineyard.net(199.232.92.45) by VINEYARD.NET via smap/slg (V1.3) id sma009912; Mon Feb 2 05:33:35 1998 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley), greenbuilding@crest.org From: "John R. Abrams" Subject: Re: GBlist: theory versus practice Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1698 Hi David - You said: >So no matter what, this house is going to consume needless amounts of >resources. We'll do what we can to make it energy-efficient, water >efficient, healthy, durable, and such, but the budget will be chewed up by >raw space requirements before we can do anything close to state of the art. > >We'd like the paycheck, but that's a side issue. If we walk away from the >job, they'll build anyway. With our involvment, things will be better, but >we we're going to have troubled consciences. Difficult issue which we face often. We do big houses. Over time, we have developed criteria. If it doesn't satisfy these, we don't do it. There are two major parts: 1) the nature of the project and its environmental effect on the community and 2) the benefits of the project to our business and resulting social effects to the community. The first part: * The program has to make some inherent sense to us (large because people want a family compound that holds their extended clan, for example, rather than because they need a huge screening room for their miles-wide TV screen - space for people rather than toys); * The project has to be appropriate in scale to the property and the clients must embrace our philosophy/approach to site design, planning, protection, and preservation, and be concerned about community integration and neighborliness (for example, be willing to be protective of others' view of their establishment as well as taking advantage of their own views out); * The clients must embrace green building principles and allow us to stretch out in some way: try new (to us) architectural and/or systems approaches, etc. * The clients must be willing to dump their preconceptions (for awhile) and go through a real design process and see what emerges - sometimes it's smaller than they think. The second part: * The project must be lucrative enough so that it helps to support some of our community charitable activities and internally subsidized affordable housing projects. The robin hood approach has some difficult philosophical loopholes, but we embrace it and have used it successfully for years. Our clients seem to like it too, both those who are paying and those who are receiving; * The project must be lucrative enough so that it supports our continuing effort to 1) be certain that our salaries, benefits, and profit sharing are substantial enough that the 20 families whose livelihood comes primarily from this company can live well and 2) strengthen our business so it can better serve. If the project satisfies these criteria, we end up creating something that has many aspects we love, rather than being pissed off at them and ourselves. I could say more - in the interests of brevity I won't, but would be happy to discuss more with you, David, or if anyone's interested. John ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 08:02:51 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA10193 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:02:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA04957 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:01:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA02524; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:55:42 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:51:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id HAA02260 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:51:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.166]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id HAA02252 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:51:16 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id 1CVMa10938 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:56:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:56:48 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: theory versus practice Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1699 David, No matter what we do, it could always be better. The budget and our time will never allow our work to be perfect. Your paycheck is not a side issue. It is primary. I made that mistake for too long and am only now recovering. If you want to build subsidized housing, do it for poor people, not rich people. If you don't get paid, you won't stay in business to build the next project better. If you are always scrounging, you won't have the time, energy or clarity to bring your best to your work. As others have said, the client will build whether you improve the design or not. Make your clients understand the financial benefits of paying extra for your services: lower heating, lower maintenance & other costs. Make them understand the health benefits. Make them understand the space/design benefits of using someone who thinks like you. Then charge them plenty and do as good a job as they will allow. Fred ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 08:24:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id IAA10694 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:24:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id IAA09128 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:23:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA03496; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:17:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:13:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA03238 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:13:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from imo23.mail.aol.com (imo23.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.151]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA03232 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:13:31 -0500 (EST) From: FUnger@aol.com Received: from FUnger@aol.com by imo23.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id NFHPa01202; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:16:08 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <74b865f.34d5c71b@aol.com> Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:16:08 EST To: goldeneagle1@juno.com, greenbuilding@crest.org, nesea@nesea.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist:Green paradigm shift Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Mac sub 78 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1700 Samantha, This summer, the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association and the Timber Framers Guild of North America are hosting a joint conference and public celebration called the Toward Tommorrow Festival in Western Massachusetts. We should get a fairly huge crowd. Every year, NESEA hosts design awards at our annual Quality Building Conference. Fine Homebuilding is usually involved in the selection & award of winners. Perhaps this year we can get more mainstream press involved. Usually we don't get nearly enough really compelling projects. If many of you could submit your best work, perhaps we can create enough of a compelling draw to start making a dent in the way Samantha suggested. For more info, please note the NESEA web site I just reposted to Jorg yesterday. Fred Attn. NESEA staff: this is a great idea. goldeneagle1@juno.com suggested: "educating the public, discussing the latest and greatest, etc. - could all be achieved through a magazine- on the racks beside better homes and redbook- so that everyone would have access-giving awards for the architecture that meets these goals- educating the populus of these many facets that area important to us in articles (as well as their health and environment)" Let's get RedBook, Better homes & gardens, Architectural Digest and all those kinds of mags to be involved in the QBC design contest. Send a couple teaser photos from some of the great timber framers who will be coming to the conference to get the editors amazed and excited. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 09:03:18 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA11484 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:03:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA16842 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:01:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA04586; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:56:05 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:52:18 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id IAA04306 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:52:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id IAA04295 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:52:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.106.239] (usrts3p239.port.net [207.237.106.239]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA10496; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 08:57:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802021357.IAA10496@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: David Foley's excellent energy ( J. Wilson) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 98 08:57:53 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "John Wilson" , "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1701 John Wilson wrote: >While I think it is appropriate to "turn" your house as much >as 15 degrees towards the East to catch the early morning >sun, I believe any further than 15 degrees is not a good >idea. John Thanks for the reply and your concern............ I know my reply to the John Staub post sounded like I was now going to turn the house due east to catch the morning sun, but that was not my meaning of course.......... I thought it would be too boring to the listers to post a clarification to my reply. And yes.. I ve seen other references to the desirability of turning 15-20 degrees off of true south to the south-southeast without incurring too much in lost solar benefit and I think you're right that 15 would be more prudent. Thats what I'll probably end up doing to lessen the divergence from the natural slope of the land that a true south orientation would give as well as catch more of the earlier sun as Mr. Staub pointed out. I just hadn't thought out that particular benefit of a slight turn to the east. But the more informational re-enforcement I get from people such as yourself and John Staub the more confident I am in my untrained decisions........ Thanx again. C. Dodge ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 09:33:45 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12145 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:33:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA24873 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:32:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06144; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:26:27 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:22:38 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA05878 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:22:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA05874 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:22:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29412; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:27:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip239.prc.primenet.com(207.218.17.239), claiming to be "primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd029381; Mon Feb 2 07:27:51 1998 Message-ID: <34D5D79A.835F5A64@primenet.com> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 07:26:34 -0700 From: John Wilson Organization: BrainStorm X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Hard Water Conditioning References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1702 Dear Jorg, Am I missing something here. This is very unlike you or are we dealing with your not wanting to promote a product on the thread. I have been standing on pin and needles waiting to read just what this product is. So let me ask directly: What is this water softening system - Please! Thanks in advance, John Wilson Prescott, AZ. Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > Larry said: "Jorg, > > Thanks for your response. The unit you descirbe sounds good. Is this GMX > Magnetic's whole house model, or another manufacturer's product entirely? > > NO, not magnetic. Nothing to do with lining up molecules. Cheaper too. > Jorg ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 09:47:50 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id JAA12994 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:47:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id JAA28220 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:46:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA07038; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:40:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:36:37 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA06620 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:36:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA06612 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:36:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA146958; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:41:04 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:41:03 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: John Wilson Cc: GreenBuilding Listserver , Brian Ward Subject: GBlist: Salt-free water softener (was Hard Water Conditioning) In-Reply-To: <34D5D79A.835F5A64@primenet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1703 John: I have no intentions of witholding information on successful healthy or green products. I have just responded to inquiries privately until it gets too many to answer on an individual basis.I did not mean to leave you out. But how should I know of your (or anyone else's interest)? Anyone interested in exploring the same salt-free water softening device that we are satisfied with, based on the previously noted criteria and comments, can simply inquire from the well informed Cc person above. _________________________________________________________ Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, John Wilson wrote: > Dear Jorg, > > Am I missing something here. This is very unlike you or are we dealing with > your not wanting to promote a product on the thread. I have been standing on > pin and needles waiting to read just what this product is. So let me ask > directly: What is this water softening system - Please! > > Thanks in advance, > John Wilson > Prescott, AZ. > > > > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > Larry said: "Jorg, > > > > Thanks for your response. The unit you descirbe sounds good. Is this GMX > > Magnetic's whole house model, or another manufacturer's product entirely? > > > > NO, not magnetic. Nothing to do with lining up molecules. Cheaper too. > > Jorg > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST > Environmental Building News and Oikos > For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 11:52:32 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id LAA16128 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:52:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA02033 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:51:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15048; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:45:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:40:07 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA14677 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:39:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.greenbuilder.com ([206.160.220.154]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA14669 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:39:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from txinfinet.com (204.96.111.94) by mail.greenbuilder.com with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:00:09 +0000 Date: Mon, 2 Feb 98 10:57:26 CDT From: XINCLXgreenbuilding@txinfinet.com (greenbuilding Conference @ txinfinet.com) Organization: Texas InfiNet Subject: Re: GBlist: Hard Water Conditioning To: greenbuilding@crest.org Message-ID: <5007933.ensmtp@txinfinet.com> X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1704 Another suggestion for hard water: After doing lots of research for my job and then again for my new home's well (I eventually plan a rainwater system, but in the mean time, since there is already a good well, I'm going to use it) I had not found a satisfactory hard water solution. But, I've come across a device that has an amazing track record and much more testing than magnets. The customer list is quite varied from industrial, restraunts, hotels to residences, primarily in the Texas New Mexico areas because that's where they have been marketing, but several federal agencies are using them now. This is called the Panther Water Stabelizer, which is a catalytic alloy conditioner. This device needs to be cleaned once a year. It is placed directly in line, water rund over a cathode and will remains "charged" for 72 hours. The price is far more reasonable than water softners or the magnets being marketed these days. It's manufactured by Enviro Air and Water, Inc. in Austin Texas, their number is 800-571-6637. Here in Austin it's available at Home Depot stores. I'd be interested in hearing anyone's experience with this and will keep you posted on it's track record at my house. Sue Barnett Green Building Program City of Austin -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Sustainable Sources: Internet Services with an Environmental Perspective BBS 512.462.0633 Telnet://fc.greenbuilder.com:3000 WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 12:10:28 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA16638 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:10:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA07506 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:09:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA16155; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:03:16 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:57:52 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id LAA15732 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:57:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from amsterdam.interport.net (amsterdam.interport.net [199.184.165.9]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA15728 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 11:57:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.237.106.239] (usrts3p239.port.net [207.237.106.239]) by amsterdam.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA22996 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:03:03 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802021703.MAA22996@amsterdam.interport.net> Subject: Re: GBlist: Architects of note Date: Mon, 2 Feb 98 12:03:33 -0500 x-sender: cdodge@pop.interport.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: "C. Dodge" To: "Greenbuilding List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1705 >I would like to see >some exaples of the work done by the people you mentioned, is there >anything available online? Chuck Other than the URLs I mentioned, the others ( Malcohm Wells, Don Metz, and Rob Roy) don't appear to have much net presence so you'll have to go to books of which there are many. They"re all prolific authors. Try amazon.com author search. I can dig out titles if you need them. Clarence ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 12:37:14 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id MAA17232 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:37:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id MAA15699 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:35:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17883; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:29:55 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:24:46 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA17435 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:24:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA17430 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:24:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov (mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.26]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA10763 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:29:58 -0500 Received: by mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD2FD6.460D5E70@mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov>; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:29:58 -0500 Message-ID: From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: FW: GBlist: Paradigm Shift Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:29:56 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1706 Samantha, Chuck, etc. I would love to work on just such a publication...please let me know how i can help (I do graphic design, currently for environmental health perspectives published by the national institute of environmental health sciences). what a wonderful idea! olivia james james3@niehs.nih.gov >---------- >From: Chuck Hinckley >Sent: Sunday, February 1, 1998 10:30 PM >To: greenbuilding@crest.org >Subject: GBlist: Paradigm Shift > >Wendy, > >That is exactly the sort of tactic I believe is most likely to bare >fruit. Taunton Press might be a starting place, they already do Fine >Homebuilding, Fine Gardening, fine etc., but they may not be mainstream >enough. I think your reference to Better Homes and Redbook are on the >money, that is exactly the market that needs to be educated/enlightened. >We might just find that the circulation doesn't have to be limited to >the already converted alternative culture, somewhere just recently I >came across a link that led to a group founded by some Conn. housewives >(including Meryl Streep). The mainstream North American family may be >more inclined toward change than we are willing to admit. > >Chuck >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 13:04:57 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.gigabit-ethernet.org [152.2.254.82]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA18488 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:04:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA24776 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:03:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA19537; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:57:43 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:52:08 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA19073 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:51:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet1.carleton.ca (root@freenet1.carleton.ca [134.117.136.20]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA19068 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:51:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (be417@freenet3.carleton.ca [134.117.136.23]) by freenet1.carleton.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8/NCF_f1_v2.02) with ESMTP id MAA16857; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:57:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (be417@localhost) by freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca (8.8.5/NCF-Sun-Client) id MAA26404; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:58:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 12:58:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199802021758.MAA26404@freenet3.carleton.ca.carleton.ca> From: be417@freenet.carleton.ca (Robert W. Tom) To: goldeneagle1@juno.com Subject: Re: GBlist: Gooey (not necessarily Green) Architecture Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Reply-To: be417@freenet.carleton.ca Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1707 on Sun Feb 1 1998 goldeneagle1@juno.com (Samantha M.) wrote: Re: Gooey (not necessarily Green) Architecture > Re this Native architect (Douglas Cardinal)- i am very > interested in seeing his work and learning more about him [snip] Hello SamM; Apparently the contact information I posted yesterday is slightly dated (Meaning I was wrong. Again) Although D. Cardinal *was* based here in Ottawa (as a result of his Museum of Civilisation commission) and still maintains an office here, the head office is now in Washington DC, where I believe he is involved in building a museum for First Nations Peoples' culture (but I could be wrong). Rather than have me feed you any more bool, further contact info as supplied by his local office: Douglas Cardinal Architect Ltd. http://www.dcardinal.com/ Email: dcapc@dcardinal.com Washington DC office: (202) 484-0150 -- Rob Tom ---------- * ------------ be417@FreeNet.Carleton.ca Kanata, Ontario, Canada ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 13:28:11 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id NAA19533 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:28:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id NAA02641 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:26:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA20882; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:21:03 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:15:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA20489 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:15:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA20483 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (sg8.dreamscape.com [206.114.183.73]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA09441 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:21:30 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34D60D86.7626@dreamscape.com> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 13:16:38 -0500 From: Chuck Hinckley Reply-To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Organization: Ash Creek Design X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: Paradigm Shift] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------3BE03C993BF8" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1708 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3BE03C993BF8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is this either a better approach or at least a transitional step? I don't want to sound like a Mickie Rooney- Judy Garland movie, but I think these notions have merit. Are there any other people interested in looking into publishing or promoting a magazine, any groups interested in supporting one, any companies interested in advertising? Are there any members of this list that are either currently or previously involved in magazine publishing? Is this the kind of proactive approach some members were suggesting? This questionaire will be tabulated by the accounting firm of Price Waterhouse. Chuck --------------3BE03C993BF8 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from imo26.mail.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.154]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id HAA21313 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:07:21 -0500 (EST) From: Marcoplos@aol.com Received: from Marcoplos@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv12/Dec1997) id IKLMa18883 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:06:25 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:06:25 EST To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: GBlist: Paradigm Shift Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 64 The failure rate for magazines is incredibly high. A less risky approach would be to deluge the mainstream mags with articles. They will likely run a few. After all, Steve Loken got on the cover of Parade Magazine (or whatever that Sunday paper mag is called). Mark --------------3BE03C993BF8-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 14:05:48 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA20580 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:05:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA16836 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:04:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23206; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:58:37 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:52:51 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22414 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:52:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from cliff.niehs.nih.gov (root@cliff.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.8.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22408 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:52:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov (mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov [157.98.14.26]) by cliff.niehs.nih.gov (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA14951 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:58:11 -0500 Received: by mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id <01BD2FE2.990AD420@mrfrench.niehs.nih.gov>; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:58:11 -0500 Message-ID: From: "James.Olivia" To: "'Greenbuilding'" Subject: Re: GBlist: Paradigm Shift Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:58:08 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD2FE2.9917F380" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1709 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD2FE2.9917F380 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mr. marcoplos makes a good point about failure rate (and upfront capital required is also very high). saturating existing markets with these types of articles would be even more effective than creating a separate market and then trying to reach those people. nevertheless, i would always be interested in looking into creating just such a magazine (the right mag at the right time can go a long way, consider Wired)...i'm sure that any and all of the eco-build schools in North America would be interested in advertising as well as universities, etc. of course product manufacturers would too, IF this mag wanted those kind of endorsements. my experience in magazine publishing is only on the design/production end, with just a bit of writing on the side, but i would offer that in a second (oh yeah, i guess i already did). olivia james >---------- >From: Chuck Hinckley >Sent: Monday, February 2, 1998 1:16 PM >To: greenbuilding@crest.org >Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: Paradigm Shift] > > >Is this either a better approach or at least a transitional step? I >don't want to sound like a Mickie Rooney- Judy Garland movie, but I >think these notions have merit. Are there any other people interested in >looking into publishing or promoting a magazine, any groups interested >in supporting one, any companies interested in advertising? Are there >any members of this list that are either currently or previously >involved in magazine publishing? Is this the kind of proactive approach >some members were suggesting? >This questionaire will be tabulated by the accounting firm of Price >Waterhouse. > >Chuck > > ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD2FE2.9917F380 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Marcoplos@aol.com" To: "ashcreek@dreamscape.com" Subject: Re: GBlist: Paradigm Shift Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:06:25 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The failure rate for magazines is incredibly high. A less risky approach would be to deluge the mainstream mags with articles. They will likely run a few. After all, Steve Loken got on the cover of Parade Magazine (or whatever that Sunday paper mag is called). Mark ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD2FE2.9917F380-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 14:06:31 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA20596 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:06:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA17099 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:05:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA23337; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:59:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:53:55 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22495 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:53:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from bossie.cow-net.com (bossie.cow-net.com [207.107.185.1]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA22491 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:53:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from cow-net.com by bossie.cow-net.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA11432; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 10:58:59 -0800 Message-ID: <34D6168F.EAF150B7@cow-net.com> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 10:55:12 -0800 From: John Salmen X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: Paradigm Shift] References: <34D60D86.7626@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1710 I had some experience with Rodale press (early 80's) as a 'ghost' designer. They wanted a high health/fashion magazine . Similar concept. Alternative (to mainstream values) material packaged for larger consumer base. We did a fake issue for test circulation. I thought values were getting confused when the cover (an incredibly healthily beautiful mother and daughter (sans makeup - the daughter however had slightly naturally crooked teeth) was rejected. A _lot_ of money was spent and the concept died (probably with advertisers). Another concept might be tailored publications through an existing retailer such as Ikea, body shop, etc. i.e. a few packaged information articles on greenbuilding themes and lots of photos of furniture or soap or something. The more photogenic aspects of the vision are definitely appealing to a large base - look how well the Natural House Book did and his intent was to make the broad concepts appealing and accessible to a large audience John Salmen TERRAIN E.D.S Chuck Hinckley wrote: > Is this either a better approach or at least a transitional step? I > don't want to sound like a Mickie Rooney- Judy Garland movie, but I > think these notions have merit. Are there any other people interested in > looking into publishing or promoting a magazine, any groups interested > in supporting one, any companies interested in advertising? Are there > any members of this list that are either currently or previously > involved in magazine publishing? Is this the kind of proactive approach > some members were suggesting? > This questionaire will be tabulated by the accounting firm of Price > Waterhouse. > > Chuck > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: GBlist: Paradigm Shift > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:06:25 EST > From: Marcoplos@aol.com > To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com > > The failure rate for magazines is incredibly high. A less risky approach would > be to deluge the mainstream mags with articles. They will likely run a few. > After all, Steve Loken got on the cover of Parade Magazine (or whatever that > Sunday paper mag is called). > > Mark ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 14:07:34 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.iupac.org [152.2.254.86]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA20623 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:07:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA17497 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:06:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA23508; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:00:28 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:54:56 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA22589 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:54:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from ultra1.dreamscape.com (ultra1.dreamscape.com [206.64.128.7]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA22582 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:54:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.114.185.48] (ua15.dreamscape.com [206.114.185.48]) by ultra1.dreamscape.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA19543; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:00:29 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: terry@future.dreamscape.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:06:28 -0500 To: dmfoley@acadia.net (David M. Foley) From: Terry Brennan Subject: Re: GBlist: theory versus practice Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1711 >I'd really appreciate some advice regarding a dilemma. David, A couple of ideas spring to mind. One is along the lines of my recent post about laying hands on everything in my possession. What do they have that they can give away or sell? Maybe you can find them a copy of that coffee table book that shows people in front of their homes with all their stuff or a copy of voluntary simplicity from the 1930's. This piece is an inside job for them. It can quite difficult because it often involves coming to terms with basic fears. Only they can do the work. Asking them to do it is the trickiest part. It's so easy to hear things as an attack. However, you can clearly communicate your feelings, needs and a request to them, reducing the chance for misunderstanding and triggering defense mechanisms. Something along the lines of, "I notice the house you want is over 3500 square feet. I am nervous about it because I have been struggling to make buildings that contribute to sustainibility. It would make my life wonderful if you are able to examine your life for ways in which you can comfortably simplify it." You'd be effectively communicating your feelings and needs to them. You can ask them to do the same back, tell you what they feel, what their needs are and what you can do that would make life wonderful for them. I've found when I am able to communicate with others in this way, I am compassionate and am taking care of myself. If they are unwilling to examine their lives or if they do and they find little they can let go of, perhaps you can make a building, that although large, could be easily converted to co-housing or a two or three family dwelling? Make it a durable building that people will want to save and reuse. Hey, nobody lives forever. - Terry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 14:28:38 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (fddisunsite.oit.unc.edu [152.2.254.81]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA21133 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:28:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA23970 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:27:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA24545; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:21:29 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:17:39 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA24199 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mrin53.mail.aol.com (mrin53.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.163]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA24194 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:17:24 -0500 (EST) From: RHDesign@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin53.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA16330 for greenbuilding@crest.org; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:22:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:22:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <980202142232_-1230174351@mrin53> To: greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: GBlist: Magazine Idea (was Paradigm Shift) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1712 Three or four years ago Jim Soules heavily researched the idea of a magazine that would have been a green version of Sunset Magazine or Met Home. The idea was to have glossy, great photos, lifestyle stuff on simple living, recipies for organic food and so on. Not propaganda or "gloom and doom," just showing how great a sustainable way of living could be, letting that speak for itself. Jessica Maxwell (now living in Portland, who used to write lots for Audubon) was going to be the editor. Sounded like a great idea to me. But at that time, he couldn't get it to work financially. Magazine publishing is hard. (I know--I try to put at least one out every year...) But, public interest in sustainable culture may have grown enough over the last few years to make it viable now. Rob Harrison Editor, _EcoBuilding Times_ --a publication of the Northwest EcoBuilding Guild-- www.ecobuilding.org ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 14:45:00 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA21546 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:45:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA29058 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:43:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA25775; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:37:50 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:34:00 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA25390 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:33:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.mailsrvcs.net (smtp1.gte.net [207.115.153.30]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA25383 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:33:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from TAMPA.tpatiii.com (1Cust65.tnt1.clearwater.fl.gt.uu.net [208.255.243.65]) by smtp1.mailsrvcs.net with SMTP id NAA24996; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:39:10 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34D62148.6CCF@gte.net> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 14:40:56 -0500 From: Cindy/Mike Shea Reply-To: mcshea1@gte.net Organization: Promoting Sustainable Development X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01C-GTE (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ashcreek@dreamscape.com CC: lambie@netline.net, jminter@famu.edu, GreenClips@aol.com, cfrankel@aol.com, greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: Paradigm Shift] References: <34D60D86.7626@dreamscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1713 Chuck, I think a new magazine, and more articles in existing mainstream pubs, is a great idea. With more people "cocooning", "simplifying" etc, there's a built-in audience for better design that results in greater satisfaction and a reduced ecological footprint. Unfortunately, most people haven't seen these better designs in person and don't read about them in the local paper or Good Housekeeping etc magazine. Here in Florida, the Florida House Institute for Sustainable Development in Sarasota has a great demonstration house with PVs, solartubes, improved siting and breezeways, native plants, carpets-tiles etc made from recycled materials, and the list goes on. Counties across the state are interested in replicating the example. More importantly, people need to be better informed about green building through the various media outlets they enjoy. I write for the Florida Sustainable Communities Center (http://sustainable.state.fl.us) for Tomorrow Magazine out of Sweden, etc, but I suspect even many of the well-informed members of this list never come across these outlets. The challenge is getting publishers and advertisers to support such a venture or getting a foundation to foot the bill. The Turner Foundation, btw, has recently tripled the amount of money it makes available annually, and is emphasizing sustainable communities. I personally think tying the built infrastructure and communities together is the way to go. Then our investments strengthen the local economy and ecology while simultaneously improving quality of life. The built environment center http://bec.state.fl.us is one approach. When Metropolis magazine did four issues devoted to sustainable development (fall 96), it was a sell out. The issues are now out of print. But In Business magazine, a great publication on sustainable businesses and communities, published by JG Press in Emmaus, PA, continues to struggle year after year. Something that has the reader appeal of Archetectural Digest, but focuses on the economic and environmental savings of green building and traditional neighborhoods would be tops on my subscription list. Cindy Pollock Shea Promoting Sustainable Development ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 14:57:10 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id OAA21899 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:57:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA02982 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:55:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA26547; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:49:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:46:04 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA26108 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:45:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.storm.ca (root@storm.ca [207.245.225.6]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA26104 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:45:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from storm.ca (storm03p76.storm.ca [207.245.228.204]) by mail.storm.ca (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id OAA15140 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:51:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <34D62367.EB2507@storm.ca> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 14:49:59 -0500 From: Ray Doucette Organization: Earth Works Canada X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "greenbuilding@crest.org" Subject: GBlist: alternative construction Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------18BE0CA85740F5923A44F017" Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1714 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------18BE0CA85740F5923A44F017 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi all ;-) i live in canada. ottawa, ont ... and i'm looking for option's on alternative construction, i'm thinking of either rammed earth, stack wall or straw bale in that order, and i'm hoping that some of you can give me incite as to any special consideration's that i might need to know about building in this COLD climate, any thought's ??? thank you --------------18BE0CA85740F5923A44F017 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Ray Doucette Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Ray Doucette n: Doucette;Ray org: Earth Works Canada adr: ;;;Ottawa;Ont,;;Canada email;internet: ray@storm.ca x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: TRUE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------18BE0CA85740F5923A44F017-- ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 17:17:05 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id RAA25685 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:17:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA18730 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:15:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA04487; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:09:58 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:03:05 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA03755 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:02:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from linguist.dartmouth.edu (linguist.dartmouth.edu [129.170.24.92]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA03751; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:02:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.170.40.240] (ka4-240.dartmouth.edu [129.170.40.240]) by linguist.dartmouth.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via ESMTP id RAA01978; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:07:56 -0500 X-Sender: speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 09:18:11 -0500 To: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List From: Speireag Subject: GBlist: Off topic - human compost amelioration Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by solstice.crest.org id RAB03752 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1715 Hallo, all! I was pondering composting toilets the other day, and I had an idea. (Surprise!) Most composting toilets require that the users add a quantity of carbon-rich material to absorb the urine, maintain the proper mix, and so on. That material can be sawdust, ground tree bark, chopped straw, chopped leaves, literally what-have-you. Well, there's at least one thing which *every* American household probably has in sufficient quantity: paper. But you don't want to add large sheets of paper to the pile. What about paper which has been cross-cut shredded, so that it's just confetti? Take all of the paper which you're going to throw out or shred anyway, including newspaper, financial statements, unwated ads, or whatever. Be careful to remove the glossies and anything with see-through windows or other sorts of plastic. Cross-cut shred the stuff. (Perhaps just shredding into strips would be okay.) I suppose that there might be problems with toxins or bleaches or whatnot, but I don't know. Would the composting process deal with that? While I'm on the topic of things which many of us have, what about ashes? Could you throw those in? Burning certainly deals with the bleach and newsprint stuff, though not with plastic. Thoughts? -Speireag. 0>>>>>>(--------------------- Speireag, aka Joshua Macdonald Alden (speireag@linguist.dartmouth.edu) Usually found somewhere in the wilds of New Hampshire. Ma 's e bhur toigh le, sgrìobh sibh dhomh anns a' Ghàidhlig agus tapadh leibh airson mo Ghàidhlig a cheartachadh. ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 18:01:19 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id SAA26834 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:01:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA02337 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:59:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA07433; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:54:14 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:48:45 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA06692 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from x6.boston.juno.com (x6.boston.juno.com [205.231.101.23]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA06675 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:48:28 -0500 (EST) From: sbtauto@juno.com Received: (from sbtauto@juno.com) by x6.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id PbO06278; Mon, 02 Feb 1998 15:48:54 EST To: james3@niehs.nih.gov Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:48:45 -0600 Subject: Re: GBlist: Paradigm Shift Message-ID: <19980202.150116.3638.4.sbtauto@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1-2,5-16,18-107 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1716 In case there is any interest - I am on the newsletter staff for the San Antonio Sustainable Building Coalition. If any of you authors are seeking exposure you are are welcome to submit articles for review and we will give every consideration to publication. Less than 500 words please. One piece of advice: remember your audience. Steve Shepard SBT Automation 210-698-7109 Fax:210-698-7109 sbtauto@juno.com http://www.lore.net/~sbt On Mon, 2 Feb 1998 13:58:08 -0500 "James.Olivia" writes: >This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not >understand >this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. > >------ =_NextPart_000_01BD2FE2.9917F380 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >mr. marcoplos makes a good point about failure rate (and upfront >capital >required is also very high). saturating existing markets with these >types of articles would be even more effective than creating a >separate >market and then trying to reach those people. nevertheless, i would >always be interested in looking into creating just such a magazine >(the >right mag at the right time can go a long way, consider Wired)...i'm >sure that any and all of the eco-build schools in North America would >be >interested in advertising as well as universities, etc. of course >product manufacturers would too, IF this mag wanted those kind of >endorsements. > >my experience in magazine publishing is only on the design/production >end, with just a bit of writing on the side, but i would offer that in >a >second (oh yeah, i guess i already did). > >olivia james > >>---------- >>From: Chuck Hinckley >>Sent: Monday, February 2, 1998 1:16 PM >>To: greenbuilding@crest.org >>Subject: [Fwd: Re: GBlist: Paradigm Shift] >> >> >>Is this either a better approach or at least a transitional step? I >>don't want to sound like a Mickie Rooney- Judy Garland movie, but I >>think these notions have merit. Are there any other people interested >in >>looking into publishing or promoting a magazine, any groups >interested >>in supporting one, any companies interested in advertising? Are there >>any members of this list that are either currently or previously >>involved in magazine publishing? Is this the kind of proactive >approach >>some members were suggesting? >>This questionaire will be tabulated by the accounting firm of Price >>Waterhouse. >> >>Chuck >> >> > >------ =_NextPart_000_01BD2FE2.9917F380 >Content-Type: message/rfc822 >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >From: "Marcoplos@aol.com" >To: "ashcreek@dreamscape.com" >Subject: Re: GBlist: Paradigm Shift >Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 07:06:25 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >The failure rate for magazines is incredibly high. A less risky >approach >would >be to deluge the mainstream mags with articles. They will likely run a >few. >After all, Steve Loken got on the cover of Parade Magazine (or >whatever >that >Sunday paper mag is called). > >Mark > > > >------ =_NextPart_000_01BD2FE2.9917F380-- >______________________________________________________________________ >This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST >Environmental Building News and Oikos >For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. >______________________________________________________________________ > > _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 19:04:40 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA28335 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:04:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA20528 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:03:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA10559; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:57:32 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:50:41 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA10149 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:50:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from endeavor.flash.net (endeavor.flash.net [209.30.0.40]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA10145 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 18:50:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from flash.net (sasc6-21.flash.net [209.30.91.21]) by endeavor.flash.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA09591; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:55:54 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <34D65F2A.2FD654F4@flash.net> Date: Mon, 02 Feb 1998 18:04:58 -0600 From: Larry Stivers Organization: USAFR X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Wilson CC: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" , greenbuilding@crest.org Subject: Re: GBlist: Hard Water Conditioning References: <34D5D79A.835F5A64@primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1717 John Wilson wrote: > Dear Jorg, > > Am I missing something here. This is very unlike you or are we dealing with > your not wanting to promote a product on the thread. I have been standing on > pin and needles waiting to read just what this product is. So let me ask > directly: What is this water softening system - Please! > > Thanks in advance, > John Wilson > Prescott, AZ. > > Jorg D. Ostrowski wrote: > > > Larry said: "Jorg, > > > > Thanks for your response. The unit you descirbe sounds good. Is this GMX > > Magnetic's whole house model, or another manufacturer's product entirely? > > > > NO, not magnetic. Nothing to do with lining up molecules. Cheaper too. > > Jorg > > John, These pins and needles are getting uncomfortable for me, too. I've been wondering if I was too circumspect in my question. You might have noticed Cindy Shea's helpful response regarding the Clearwave product. I checked that out, and it's definitely in the running. Larry ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 19:41:25 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.83] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA29241 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:41:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA00370 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:39:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA12593; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:34:19 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:29:03 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA11970 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:28:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca (root@ds11.acs.ucalgary.ca [136.159.244.11]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA11966; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:28:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA140068; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:32:45 -0700 Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:32:44 -0700 (MST) From: "Jorg D. Ostrowski" To: Speireag Cc: strawbale@crest.org, Green Building List Subject: GBlist: no paper or ashes for the toilet In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1718 You said: "Well, there's at least one thing which *every* American household probably has in sufficient quantity: paper. But you don't want to add large sheets of paper to the pile. What about paper which has been cross-cut shredded, so that it's just confetti? While I'm on the topic of things which many of us have, what about ashes? Could you throw those in? Burning certainly deals with the bleach and newsprint stuff, though not with plastic." ___________________________________________________________________________ I live with a Phoenix composting toilet every day. Paper goes to the recycling box for a few more rounds, NOY the toilet. Ashes are used when the sidewalk gets slippery, then swept into the garden as fertilzer. They do NOT go into the composting toilet. Wood shavings that normally go to the landfill are spirited away into the composting toilet. That is the reality of every life in our sustainable home and office, in an effort to reuse resources in the most appropriate manner. *************************************************************************** Jorg-Dietram Ostrowski, M. Arch. A.S. (MIT), B. Arch. (Toronto), Ecotect - in full-time professional practice since 1976 (Straw Bale since 1978), environmental/architectural design, ecological planning, consulting on sustainable buildings/communities. Lectures, seminars, workshops. - 3 residential demonstration projects in Canada, +80,000 visitors - college campus and office tower recofit under construction - living a conserver lifestyle & working in a sustainable home and office ACE, ARE, ACT, ASH-Incs., Phone: (403) 239-1882, Fax: (403) 547-2671 Web Site [under construction]: http://www.ucalgary.ca/~jdo/ecotecture.htm e-mail: ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 19:59:48 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu ([152.2.254.87] (may be forged)) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id TAA29715 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:59:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id TAA04679 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:58:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA13711; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:52:39 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:47:29 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA13224 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:47:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA13220 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 19:47:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id TKS16606; Mon, 02 Feb 1998 19:21:41 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:36:18 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: theory versus practice Message-ID: <19980202.170122.3438.2.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0,2-6 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1719 Three Cheers for Steve's suggestions! (Thank you Steve, though i am just starting and have not yet encountered that dilema- i wasnt sure how i would handle it when it does occur) Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 20:16:39 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.exploris.org [152.2.254.85]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id UAA00188 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:16:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id UAA09639 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:15:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA14690; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:09:33 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:02:12 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id UAA14264 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:02:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from m3.boston.juno.com (m3.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.198]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA14259 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 20:01:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from goldeneagle1@juno.com) by m3.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id TKQ16606; Mon, 02 Feb 1998 19:21:40 EST To: greenbuilding@crest.org Cc: marciamcd@juno.com Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 16:32:55 -0700 Subject: Re: GBlist: Paradigm Shift Message-ID: <19980202.170122.3438.0.goldeneagle1@juno.com> References: <34D51D2D.40E4@dreamscape.com> X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 9-14 From: goldeneagle1@juno.com (Wendy L McDonald) Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1720 Thank you for your thoughts on the magazine, chuck. You might just be correct that the mainstream household will grasp these ideas more readily than we know. As part of my research for my developing philosophy i have found that new "simplify" books seem to be flooding the market- as well as many alternative concepts are hitting the mainstream mag's. i interpret this that the culture might just be ready for such a shift, and NEEDS folks like us to help them find that "unkown" thing they are searching for. Another idea- a good start with less investment would be to get an article or series of articles in mag's such as Redbook or Better Homes. Anyone know of the connections needed to do such a thing? Samantha M. Holistic Homeplaces Denver, CO _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 21:38:24 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id VAA03089 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:38:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id VAA03290 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:36:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18684; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:31:18 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:24:25 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA18243 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:24:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from engmail.uwaterloo.ca (root@engmail.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.50.62]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA18238 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:24:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [81.27.97.129] (civof81.watstar.uwaterloo.ca [129.97.27.81]) by engmail.uwaterloo.ca (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA18131; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:29:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from JFSTRAUB@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:29:56 EST From: John Straube Subject: GBlist: Re: greenbuilding-digest V2 #52 To: greenbuilding@crest.org cc: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@BRIDGE.watstar.uwaterloo.ca X-Warning: UNAuthenticated Sender In-Reply-To: <199801301953.OAA02713@solstice.crest.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1721 > ------------------------------ > > Date: 30 Jan 98 08:03:33 EST > From: Marc.J.Rosenbaum@VALLEY.NET (Marc J. Rosenbaum) > Subject: Re: GBlist: Re: David Foley's excellent energy eff primer > > John Straub wrote: > >East facing windows are certainly better > >collectors than pure south ones in our climate because we are > >probabilistically more likely to get early morning sun than afternoon > >sun. Secondly, by morning the house has cooled off from many hours of > >no sunlight. So, the sooner the early morning hating gets going, the less > >likely you are to use backup heat, and thus the lower total annual costs. > - --- end of quoted material --- Whoa there Marc. Sorry for my shorthand, but I did not mean due east, I meant 30 degress or so off south, and as much as 45 deg (although my whole message expressed suprised that this could be so). The jist of my message was the east of south was better than west of south. I guess it could have been taken out of context. > I don't see it the way John does. Here are ASHRAE Solar Heat Gain Factors > totalled for Oct through April at 40 N latitude: > East 4945 Btu/ft2 > South 10360 Btu/ft2 > These are clear day numbers, and they represent the sum of the average clear > day in each of the seven months. More acccurate numbers are calculable or of > course measurable for a specific location, knowing its cloud cover > characteristics. These are obvious, but, check the SE number (the 45 deg value I suggested as an extreme) from ASHRAE and the difference is mcuh less. Also, clear days are rare in my "solar awful" region of the country. Diffuse radiation plays an important role in most areas, providing a not insignificant percentage of solar gain. Diffuse radiation is not nearly as direction sensitive as the direct values that ASHRAE quotes. Of course, these ASHRAE values should only be used for design of extreme conditions, not for passive solar gain, this is clearly outlined in the ASHRAE tables. >However, I think this shows that you'd have to lose fully > half of your south insolation before the east gain would be equal. If you look > at a shorter "winter", as you'd find in a superinsulated house, Nov - Jan: > East 1449 Btu/ft2 > South 4772 Btu/ft2 > East is only 30% of the potential of south. This analysis is only if every day is a clear day (which it is not) and if diffuse radiation did not provide energy on off days, and if it was equally sunny before noon as after. All of these are not the case for NE US and Eastern Canada. > I've cranked the orientation of buildings off of true south because of shading > >from topography or because of known climatic characteristics (such as morning > fog, etc.) but in no case have I seen a situation where a due east exposure > would be preferable to due south or reasonable deviation from south. I don't > worry about 20 degrees off of true south at all. Exactly my point. But run the ASHRAE SE (45 degress off South, the most extreme I suggested) orientation numbers for SHGF through and you will find there is still a reduction. But now run one of the many solar packages out there and do an hour by hour analysis, and for my region, and for Idaho, an east of south window (instead of West of south) will do better. I would not be surprised if similiar results were found in many climates with less than ideal solar conditions. > Isn't real life great? You can disagree with a professor and it isn't > reflected in your final grade! Grade! Am I supposed to be marking? I in class here too ----------------------------------------------------------------------- John Straube Civil Engineering Dept. Building Engineering Group University of Waterloo Webpage http://sunburn.uwaterloo.ca/beg Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1 UW Phone 519 888-4567 Ext 2378 UW Fax 519 888 6197 Personal Phone 519 741 7920 Personal Fax 519 885 5193 x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x ______________________________________________________________________ This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to greenbuilding-request@crest.org. ______________________________________________________________________ From owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Mon Feb 2 22:11:04 1998 Received: from helios.oit.unc.edu (www.cearch.org [152.2.254.84]) by luna.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6/rchk1.19) with ESMTP id WAA04346 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:11:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from solstice.crest.org (solstice.crest.org [208.202.27.10]) by helios.oit.unc.edu (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id WAA12792 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:09:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA20436; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:03:59 -0500 (EST) Received: by solstice.crest.org (bulk_mailer v1.5); Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:58:53 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20088 for greenbuilding-outgoing; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:58:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from planet.pouch.com (root@planet.pouch.com [209.51.167.10]) by solstice.crest.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA20083 for ; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 21:58:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from pbcustomer (ts1-24.pouch.com [209.51.167.43]) by planet.pouch.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA24629; Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:00:00 -0500 (EST) From: "Carol Lutker" To: , Cc: Subject: Re: GBlist: particle board and mdf recycling Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 22:01:37 -0500 Message-ID: <01bd3050$0b2a9960$2ba733d1@pbcustomer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0096_01BD3026.22549160" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-greenbuilding@crest.org Precedence: bulk Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: X-UID: 1722 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01BD3026.22549160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Pbsustain@aol.com To: ecicog@ia.net Cc: greenbuilding@crest.org Date: Saturday, January 31, 1998 7:46 AM Subject: Re: GBlist: siding & other materials =20 =20 Phil Bailey SustainAbility had many helpful reference = suggestions.Thanks. We are looking for ideas & experience in re-using, re-cycling or = composting scraps of particle bd or mdf. =20 What happens to formaldehyde in composting?=20 Any re-manufacturing possibilities? That might be feasible where we = are? We are a non-profit waste reduction group on Long Island NY with an = on-farm composting operation already in effect. Appreciate your thoughts. =20 Carol Lutker, Association for Resource Conservation (516 261-4957. = ______________________________________________________________________ = This greenbuilding dialogue is sponsored by CREST Environmental Building = News and Oikos For instructions send e-mail to = greenbuilding-request@crest.org. = ______________________________________________________________________=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0096_01BD3026.22549160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable